God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Robert Franz
To: Marlyn Bumpus
Sub: Re: xtian bs
Date: 27 Nov 93 11:28:15
--------
EID:c276 1b7b5b80
MSGID: 1:105/408 a6100abb
> LZ> * Origin: The Revelation BBS - (210) 341-1293 - ZyXEL 19.2k (1:387/303
)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Puke!
MB> And we wonder why *we* get treated so badly? Perhaps we should take
care
o
MB> the way we treat others first?
My only 'sin' was in wasting bandwidth. I was raised not to suffer fools
gladly, and I will not do so.
MB> Bad form, bad example. Paints us all bad. Fix your attitude!!!
'All' who? Atheist are individuals, and I from the school that brooks no
mystical pap. Non-falsifiable beliefs do not meet my standard for rational
thought.
---
I'm upping my standards. Up yours!
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: JeZeus "Picture" at school
Date: 27 Nov 93 13:36:00
--------
EID:d96a 1b7b6c80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2cf79e10
?> ACCORD MAY BE NEAR ON JESUS' PICTURE AT SCHOOL
?> ----------
?> Detroit News, 11/16/93
?>
?> LANSING - Lawyers arguing the legality of hanging a
?> conventional picture of "Jesus" on a wall in Bloomingdale High
?> School could reach accord this week to end a yearlong debate
?> over religious freedom in the rural village west of Kalamazoo.
Does this mean that Bloomingdale High School produces blooming
idiots?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Valencia: Church of Jesus Christ, Rocket Scientist (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Marlyn Bumpus
To: Aaron Boyden
Sub: MORALS IN RUSSIA
Date: 25 Nov 93 13:20:00
--------
EID:dc7f 1b796a80
MSGID: 1:206/2651.2@Fido a48a4abe
REPLY: 1:206/2720 a389e2ee
PID: FastEcho 1.25 7648
>> Obviously you have no experience with Buddhists,
>> equating us to theists.
> I would have to say that the teachings of the Buddha, at least those
> I am familiar with, exceed those of Jesus in wisdom and generally
> good sense by a pretty huge margin. However, historical evidence
> suggests that the majority of those who follow Buddha follow him
> about as closely as most Christians follow Jesus; in other words,
> they interpret until the original words have almost completely lost
> their meaning.
OK. I'll agree here, more because that is a common failing with all of
humani
ty and not limited to the followers of one religion over another.
However, the original statement to which I was responding alleged that Buddhis
ts pray to Buddha in the same manner that Christians pray to God. Buddha
is pr
etty generally accepted in *all* parts of the Buddhist world to have been
a *m
an*, not a god. To relate Buddhism to theism is to stretch an incredibly
thin
thread over a gaping and bottomless chasm. There are too many like me,
both
an atheist *and* a Buddhist, to be able to make that kind of blanket statement
.
> This is obscured in the West, because we have little
> contact with actual Buddhists. Those few we encounter are usually
> pretty devout, to maintain their beliefs in the face of a society
> which almost universally rejects them.
We're not universally rejected. Just misunderstood on all parts, including
th
at of our sometimes fellow atheists, it seems...
---
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--------
From: Lois Frankel
To: Jeff Vineburg
Sub: hands beyond the grave
Date: 24 Nov 93 01:09:11
--------
EID:0774 1b780920
MSGID: 1:266/56@fidonet.org bd128193
On 11-18-93 11:52 Jeff Vineburg said something about atheist, to which
I repl
y:
JV> gee, you sure have a lot of hands.
JV> I just want my wishes respected.
It's an occupational hazard of being a former philosophy professor...
... On the other hand, you have different fingers.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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--------
From: Lois Frankel
To: Derek Maddox
Sub: religion & college
Date: 24 Nov 93 01:16:11
--------
EID:f218 1b780a00
MSGID: 1:266/56@fidonet.org bd128194
On 11-18-93 18:23 Derek Maddox said something about religion & college,
to wh
ich I reply:
DM> stayed as far away from philosophy, sociology, and psychology classes
DM> as I could get. They were (to me, and at that time) boring and
DM> non-productive. Besides, they were dangerous. Many of the professors
Just the attitude of many of my former students. IMHO, there is little
point in philosophy depts trying to get too many of their courses
certified as meeting a requirmeent - you end up with unwilling students
who aren't interested, won't do the work, and hassle you if you don't
give them an A for just showing up.
DM> to make sure that we engineers got a "well-rounded" education. Unless
DM> you took considerable time away from studying for more important
DM> (degree-wise, anyway) engineering classes, you could end up with an
DM> embarassing stain on your transcript.
That explains the slip-shod work I got out of many students.
DM> However, I was forced to take one sociology and one psychology class.
DM> During those classes, and rightly so, I was also forced to re-examine
DM> the way I look at the world and people around me. As you say, that
is
Unfortunately, most students appreciate these courses only long after
the fact, after they have trashed the instructor in the course
evaluations (believe me, they *do* count against professors to whom the
department wants to deny tenure for not being "one of the boys").
DM> Unfortunately, my experience with the teacher making un-called for
DM> remarks was in a chemistry class. The purpose for chemistry class is
DM> to teach scientific facts associated with the field of chemistry, not
DM> encourage or discourage religious thought.
At my last university, we had a chemistry professor who preached
religious doctrine in chemistry class. It was a state university campus.
We also had a philosophy professor (that is, one of the @#%#$ who denied
me tenure) who taught in his philosophy of religion course that all
translations of the Hebrew/Christian bible are inerrent because inspired
by god.
... There's money in Philosophy, if you've got the right one
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Marcos Quintero
Sub: Atheist
Date: 26 Nov 93 08:52:00
--------
EID:76b2 1b7a4680
MSGID: 1:2617/117 a58ddb5d
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Marcos Quintero Said: ]-----
> As an atheist you are only fooling your self. You see only what you want
> to see. By any chance would your parents have been atheists? I promise
> you if you are ever in life threatening situation your viewpoints will
> take a 180 degree turn.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I would contend that -you-, as a theist, see only what you want to see.
-You-
need supernatural hocus-pocus to explain things that your little mind cannot
comprehend.
So, tell me, what are atheists like me blind to? And is this some kind
of req
uirement, that all atheists are a certain way?
Seems like I'm right, you see what you want. Atheists are not all the same,
b
ut you are scared / confused by us, so you label us, poke fun at us, harrass
u
s. I think you need to take a look at and inside YOURself.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Dave Litton
Sub: "god"
Date: 27 Nov 93 10:54:00
--------
EID:552c 1b7b56c0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 a60c6ff5
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Dave Litton Said: ]-----
> i have this mormon sitting next to me in my spanish class and he will
> always tell me that jesus is gonna come down and kill us all, except
> for
> the mormons...what sence does that make?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Well, he's just self-righteous, and he'll find out when he dies what kind
of a
n idiot he was...
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Dave Litton
Sub: Re: sorry man
Date: 27 Nov 93 14:33:14
--------
EID:b051 1b7b7420
> -> this Echo is for issues regarding the separation of state and church
> -> the dissemination of atheist information. if you have anything to off
> -> those lines, please do so. otherwise, please refrain from posting in
> if it is an athiest echo then why is it only about seperation of church
> and state, you can be a catholic and believe in sepearation of church
> and state, that doesn't make you an athiest...
since you quoted back the short-form guidelines, try reading them again.
separ
ation issues and atheist info. those are on-topic. you should also know
[or wo
uld if you read the guidelines] that complaining about the topics is also
off-
topic. if the Echo doesn't meet your expectations, find another one.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Len Buckholtz
Sub: Re: A_THEIST Echo Guidelines
Date: 27 Nov 93 14:34:50
--------
EID:0edf 1b7b7440
> You might wish to read some of Einstein's writings. A most brilliatn
> man who UNDERSTOOD certain scientific postulates which state that
> animate matter does NOT come from inanimate matter. Scientifically not
> posible, due to subatomic physics.
if there was some purpose to your diatribe, it escaped me.
if you cannot post traffic on-topic after reading the guidelines, you don't
be
long here.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Bev Conover
Sub: Re: Inspirational quotation
Date: 27 Nov 93 14:37:23
--------
EID:1821 1b7b74a0
> Hi, Chris... Before you holler, just want to apologize for responding
to
> this character. I know it must be hard for you to keep the fundys in
> check, but I'll do my best to refrain from responding to them in the
> future. Happy moderating. :)
you get one free response to nutballs taking you to task before you go off-top
ic. [grin]
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
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--------
From: Fred Reynolds
To: Marcos Quintero
Sub: Atheist
Date: 26 Nov 93 20:56:00
--------
EID:05c5 1b7aa700
MSGID: 1:278/720 85FA88CA
MQ> You see only what you want to
MQ> see. By any chance would your parents have been atheists?
I thought THIS was the reason why religious people are
religious!
MQ> I promise you if you
MQ> are ever in life threatening situation your viewpoints will
MQ> take a 180 degree turn.
You said it again, the reason for the existence of religion!
"Is that seat saved?"... "no, but we are praying for it!"
Fred, 11-26-1993
* KWQ/2 1.2a * OS/2, not just another program loader!......................
.
--- WM v3.10/92-0599
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--------
From: Pat Kelley
To: All
Sub: ATHEIST ANGER(!?)
Date: 28 Nov 93 13:48:06
--------
EID:85aa 1b7c6e00
MSGID: 1:203/289.0 2cf8ac16
When a religious fanatic proselytizes, he lays claim that his particular
faith
is the only way to
go - there are no alternatives. Choose any other faith (or none at all)
and h
e damns you to hell
for all eternity. Unbelievers say evangelicals ignore obvious evidence
of ra
ndom evolution in
favor of more fanciful mythological creation stories. Evangelicals respond
to this by
manipulating an ignorant populous and inventing laws designed to silence
disse
nt. At best
unbelievers are kept "in check," at worst unbelievers are harassed, jailed
an
d/or killed by the
keepers of the dominant faith. Unbelievers are frequently accused of harborin
g "too much
anger" when we insist upon retaining our skepticism toward religious claims.
Evangelicals
point to this "anger" and say "see, we warned you, this is what is wrong
with
unbelievers -
they are so ANGRY all the time!" What's wrong with this picture? We (the
un
believer) are
placed in a no-win situation. The fanatic sees ANY denunciation regardless
ho
w slight of the
governing religious faction as an ANGRY imposition.
I have always felt it pointless to argue biblical "fact" with a true believer.
Why are we arguing
at all? Why continue to hand over ammunitionwith which they load their
guns?
Unbelievers
should not be "defending" our tenets against mythological claims. Our
scienc
e is sound, our
discoveries marvelous, our imaginations limitless, yet when we lower ourselves
to do battle
against virgin births and afterlives we might as well be fighting over whether
the three little
pigs had building permit for their dwellings and whether or not the wolf
was t
ruly guilty
because the buildings were obviously not up to code! Who cares? It's stupid!
It is time to
walk away and let "them" do the work for us. Look around. Each time a
fanati
c kills his
family in the Lords name, each time a TV evangelist falls, each time the
Pope
admonishes his
flock to stop using condoms and birth control in this age of serious overpopul
ation and
starvation, our "way" becomes just that much stronger and we barely have
to li
ft a finger.
Let's face it, churches have been forced to become more and more secular
in th
eir activities to
attract participants - maybe we should too. We should be concentrating
upon p
romotion of
our humanitarian-based moral, ethical guidelines as a means unto itself
in ord
er to attract
members of our civilization as they continue to step away from religious
doctr
inal dogma.
Ours is NOT simply an 'alternative' to religion. Whereas "they" demand
unques
tioned belief,
we should not in turn require disbelief for anyone to become a member.
As lo
ng as we
continue to chase the bait cast by the religionist's line we are doomed
to a s
truggle to free
ourselves from the hook.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: >> Ubik: FUndamentalismCK << (1:203/289)
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: hands beyond the grave
Date: 28 Nov 93 13:23:00
--------
EID:10ce aa0d8250
MSGID: 1:206/2720 a60d5f58
REPLY: 1:266/56@fidonet.org bd128193
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> It's an occupational hazard of being a former
> philosophy professor...
Any chance you could be persuaded to stop by the philosophy echo?
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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--------
From: Branch Haines
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: Re: definition of atheist
Date: 25 Nov 93 21:15:58
--------
EID:ccfc 1b79a9e0
MSGID: 1:112/610 2cf5fbcf
LF> By "something" out there, do you mean something supernatural? If so,
LF> atheists do not believe such a thing; on the other hand, if all you
LF> meanby "something out there" is the world, universe, or whatever
LF> naturalentities may exist, then most of us probably do accept the
LF> existence ofthe universe.
I myself am not firm on the idea of a God. However, from time to time I
do
see proof of an intelligence beyond my comprehension. A good example would
be
the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in the Phillipines, just as we were trying
to re
new the lease of a nearby military base. I doubt that sheer coincidence
could
explain the way in which this happened, the first eruption of Pinatubo in
seve
ral centuries, at just the right time. Seems more like someone or something
so
mewhere having a good laugh at our expense.
* SPITFIRE v3.3
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--------
From: Branch Haines
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: Vouchers schools
Date: 25 Nov 93 21:22:15
--------
EID:7893 1b79aac0
MSGID: 1:112/610 2cf5fbd0
LF> If that's true, wouldn't removing the TV be a better alternative than
LF> removing the second income? Let the kids while away the after-school
LF> hours reading a book. (On the other hand, as a confessed TV junkie
LF> andNational Merit scholar, not to mention author of several articles
LF> inrefereed scholarly journals... ... it is not obvious
LF> thatTV is such a villain either.)
Well, this really has little to do with religion, so I'll keep it short;
w
hat I think has happened is that kids bereft of the so-called 'traditional'
pa
rental influence are more in touch with their baser instincts, and more
prone
to translate their feelings into actions. This is a hereditary trait going
bac
k to our very earliest ancestors, and probably no amount of social pressure
ca
n ever entirely remove it. TV violence has become a scapegoat for people
unwil
ling to admit their own innate nature and shortcomings.
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Ken Quick
Sub: Re: Inspirational quotation
Date: 28 Nov 93 00:54:10
--------
EID:8625 1b7c06c0
> Sorry, I guess I got a little carried away there. (Assuming you
> remember the message, was the whole thing off topic, or just the last
> part? Just wondering) I'll try to keep my Targh on a leash, but I can't
it's just pointless to encourage those who came in here to preach.
> absolutely promise that he won't bite the head off the occasional
> mailman. Oh well...
it's appreciated. thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
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--------
From: Sysop of Higher Technology: 8*14.4k
To: Arthur Kraft
Sub: Re: DOWNLOADING LYNC3.0
Date: 20 Nov 93 15:31:00
--------
EID:96ec 1b747be0
> download anyfiles that has a .EXE ext. unless I have it in writing
> that is does not contain any viruses....I hope you understand that
> I'm just being cautious..
Do you really think I would run a commercial system with bad files?????
Paranoid is one thing.... but please feel free to DL it, any reccomended
file
on the system has been throughly examined, run, tested and used by us at
HTS.
I will not say the same for 100% of the files in the general download area
how
ever.
We post these as self extracting archives in order to simplify installation
fo
r novice users, many of who are computerphobes.
--Mike--
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: John Kennedy
Sub: Speaking of Priests
Date: 20 Nov 93 22:43:00
--------
EID:bcac 1b74b560
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A9144E0E
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
JK> to lead a lifestyle as seemingly sick as that of a priest ...
JK> ... I find myself lacking any demonstrable statistical knowledge
JK> on the subject and that ALWAYS gets you in trouble.
i can see why.
when you make such gross generalizations as that first line above,
you leave yourself open to all sorts of back-venom. mine included.
believing that the priesthood is a sick lifestyle reminds me of
Nazis and KKKers and skinheads and Republicans who disapprove of anything
that
they are not, and some of whom go farther to ban that which they dislike,
or
even farther and kill.
my dad's first cousin was a priest and a good and noble man.
my great-aunt was a nun and a good and noble woman from what i've heard.
it's interesting to see here that anti-Catholic, anti-priest sentiments
are st
ill spit out and dribbled around America. ... and i was just reading an
articl
e about the new Klan rallies around Ohio ... most interesting ...
obviously you lack any demonstrable knowledge on the subject of the priesthood
, too. maybe you should consider education ...
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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From: tom kunesh
To: Georgene Harkness
Sub: Catholic atheism
Date: 20 Nov 93 22:55:00
--------
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MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A91450F0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
CR> Most Catholic schools accept non-catholic (and even non-religious)
CR> students, and don't insist (or even request) that you convert. And
CR> excellent Jesuit high school in my area has a very secular study
CR> programme. And there are many private schools that are not
CR> religion-oriented.
GH> In the Catholic school I attended, as is common in Catholic schools
GH> today, children were not, indeed, required or requested to convert.
GH> They were only required to attend Mass every single morning and be
GH> indoctrinated in the "faith" through regular religious instruction
GH> which was included as a required part of the curriculum. Grades were
GH> assessed as a result of this religious instruction, so non-catholics
GH> were wise to learn the material, if they wanted to pass.
in the conservative rural Catholic grade school i attended, in the 2nd most
Ca
tholic county in the U.S. (ie, Stearns County MN, home of Lake Wobegone),
we a
ttended Mass every morning (i was also an altarboy), had almost all nuns
as te
achers, and had no non-Catholics.
in the conservative city Catholic grade school i attended in the 2nd most
Cath
olic county in the U.S., we attended Mass only on Holy Days during the week,
h
ad almost all nuns and brothers as teachers, and had a few non-Catholics
who w
ere not required to attend Mass at all, nor receive Catholic religious instruc
tion - although they did take courses in World Religion, and Modern Society.
G
rades were not assessed on the basis of theology whatsoever, and non-Catholics
were exempted from all Catholic religious material.
a total of 12 years spent in Catholic schools, towards the end of which
(sopho
more year h.s.) i began reading Sherlock Holmes and came to the conclusion
tha
t the basis of Christianity was illogical. i received an excellent education,
a very catholic (ie, universal - look it up) appreciation of other worldviews,
and became an atheist, all under the aegis of the Church. ... for all of
whic
h i am grateful.
;>
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From: tom kunesh
To: Luke Zollner
Sub: re. unsupported quotations
Date: 20 Nov 93 23:24:00
--------
EID:b6e5 1b74bb00
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PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
LZ> Bev are you a socialist? You are not talking about America!
socialism does indeed exist in America (ask the Democratic Socialist represent
ative from Vermont), and many of the socialist parties in Europe are actually
called "Christian Socialists." what - do you see a contradiction between
socia
lism and America somewhere?
LZ> John Adams: "Our constitution was made only for a religious and moral
LZ> people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
Thomas Jefferson never agreed to this idea, and that's why we have freedom
of
religion in this nation - freedom for those who believe, and freedom for
those
who do not believe. See his "Act for Establishing Religious Freedom" which
wa
s passed by the Virginia legislature in 1786, after which it was won for
the w
hole nation. He said, "The legitimate powers of government extend to such
acts
only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor
to
say there are twenty gods, or no God." He also said, "Reason and free inquiry
are the only effectual agents against error."
your citation from Adams is also in direct conflict with the Constitution
of t
he United States, for which Adams himself voted. consider Article VI, section
3: "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office
or public Trust under the United States."
LZ> George Washington: "The people know it is impossible to rightly govern
LZ> without God and the Bible." This country IS a christian nation!
i'd sure like to know your source for that one since the following is the
one
i carry around with me: "The United States is in no way a Christian nation."
George Washington, 1796 Treaty with Tripoli ... and sort of conflicts with
yo
ur opinion.
LZ> If you like an atheist state, go to Russia!
now hold on there a minute!!! i believe it was Mr. Rice here who said that
the
good old U.S. of A. is -itself- an atheist nation! you guys should have
a tal
k ...
LZ> Article 52: The church in the USSR is separated from the state,
LZ> and the church is separated from the school.
geeeeeze (scratching my head) ... that sounds just like the good old U.S.
of A
.!
LZ> A humanist government will ALWAYS fail...
yet the governments of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln never failed.
inde
ed, most people believe them to be our two best presidents ever. hmmmmmmmmmm
.
..
curious, too, that the only Christian government that has survived longer
than
any nation is the Holy Roman Catholic Church ... does this mean that the
Cath
olic Church - being so successful as it is in ALWAYS surviving - is the
best g
ov't?
LZ> Benjamin Franklin: "Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants
."
i see no distinction ... man creates both.
LZ> (Question: Which is it that governs today?)
LZ> In an atheist government, you have the worship of man,
and in capitalist governments you have the worship of money.
LZ> Karl Marx:"My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism."
source, please.
;>
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From: tom kunesh
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Fred Cornelius
Date: 20 Nov 93 23:46:00
--------
EID:fd42 1b74bdc0
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PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
DM> Re: Agnostic / atheist ????
DM>
DM> The term "atheism" is quite old. ... Anyway, it has been around for
a
DM> while and it acquired quite a negative stigma by the last century.
since the Greek materialists 6th century bce, and has -always- had a negative
stigma in general society, since belief in the culture's gods was tantamount
t
o belief in the State, and any doubt of the gods' existence was to doubt
the S
tate itself. Socrates was prosecuted and found guilty of atheism, the early
Ch
ristians in Rome were prosecuted and found guilty of atheism, and so on
throug
h today. it was active anti-theism based on atheism and class issues that
caus
ed the greater infamy for atheism itself.
DM> Thus, looking for a better image and a perhaps less radical position,
DM> the term agnostic was invented in the last century.
that's one way of looking at Thomas Huxley's reason for creating the word.
but
consider what Stein and Huxley himself say of it ...
The present selection, Agnosticism, first appeared as a magazine article
in 18
89. It was subsequently reprinted in Science and the Christian Tradition,
a vo
lume of collected essays. This collection has been reprinted several times
sin
ce its original appearance in 1894. "Agnosticism" by Thomas Henry Huxley
When I reached intellectual maturity and began to ask myself whether I was
an
atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; a Christian
o
r a freethinker; I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less
ready
was the answer; until, at last, I cam to the conclusion that I had neither
ar
t nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing
in
which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I
diffe
red from them. They were quite sure they had attained a certain gnosis-had,
more or less successfully, solved the problem of existence; while I was
quite
sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was
insol
uble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuou
s in holding fast by that opinion. On the contrary I had, and have, the
firmes
t conviction that I never left the verace viathe straight road; and that
th
is road led nowhere else but into the dark depths of a wild and tangled
forest
. And though I have found leopards and lions in the path; though I have
made a
bundant acquaintance with the hungry wolf, that with privy paw devours
apace
and nothing said, as another great poet says of the ravening beast; and
thoug
h no friendly spectre has even yet offered his guidance, I was, and am,
minded
to go straight on, until I either come out on the other side of the wood,
or
find there is no other side to it, at least, none attainable by me.
This was my situation when I had the good fortune to find a place among
the me
mbers of that remarkable confraternity of antagonists, long since deceased,
bu
t of green and pious memory, the Metaphysical Society. Every variety of
philos
ophical and theological opinion was represented there, and expressed itself
wi
th entire openness; most of my colleagues were -ists of one sort or another;
a
nd, however kind and friendly they might be, I, the man without a rage of
a la
bel to cover himself with, could not fail to have some ...
and there Huxley's quote ends. ... 'til next time.
DM> I too have had people argue with me that I am an agnostic
DM> rather than a "true" atheist since my position is that
DM> 1) I believe in nothing for which there is
DM> insufficient evidence to compel belief, 2) I find insufficient
DM> evidence to compel belief in god(s) or other supernatural entities,
DM> 3) In this as in all matters I am continually ready to consider new
DM> evidence or reconsider old evidence. Now, frankly, I do not care what
DM> someone else calls me, but I tend to feel that in my case for me to
DM> call myself an agnostic would be a tad hypocritical.
i quite agree with you. to me the distinction between "atheist" and "agnostic"
is political, not experiential. neither "atheist" nor "agnostic" has any
pers
onal experience of deity. both, in fact, live without god. where one says,
"i
live without god," the other says, "i live without proof of god." both have
so
me understanding of what the term "god" connotes, and both are without it
- on
e more metaphysical than the other. to me, the term "agnosticism" is merely
th
eological fence sitting - precisely the desire of Huxley, and simply an
immatu
re form of atheism.
;>
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From: tom kunesh
To: Derek Maddox
Sub: What will you do?
Date: 20 Nov 93 23:51:00
--------
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in the beginning was the Net ...
DM> You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
FR> Sorry Derek, you are wrong on this one. Shit is the most appropriate
FR> substance to catch flies!
DM> On the other hand, I simply note that you will attract more flies with
DM> one substance than with another. I make no claims that honey is the
DM> "most effective" lure for flies, simply that it is more effective than
DM> vinegar. Therefore, my friend, I am most certainly correct in my
DM> assertion.
DM> You, I'm afraid, are not. Pheremones, or "sex lures", have been used
DM> in agricultural lures for flies and other insect pests for years.
DM> They'll even draw flies away from manure piles, indicating a distinct
DM> difference in relative effectiveness.
touche'!! politely understated. very nice. most impressive. kudos.
;>
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From: tom kunesh
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Agnostic / atheist ????
Date: 21 Nov 93 00:09:00
--------
EID:c95c 1b750120
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A9146234
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
> appreciate honest (non-condesending) answers. The question is ... What
> is the difference between Atheist and Agnostic?
DS> Atheist - by definition, a belief in no god.
hmmmmmmm ... definitions are made by creatures of the time, and "atheism"'s
ti
me is long, and its creatures many.
DS> A- (meaning no or none),
DS> -the- (god), -ist (one who believes in).
DS> (No trying to be condescending, just giving verbatum definition)
this is a definition derived from the classical greek etymology.
"a-" is a simple negation, also meaning "not" along with "no" - but not
"none"
"theos" is "god" in greek, as "thea" is goddess. one may consider "the-"
to be
the root of both, but by itself does not mean "god."
"-ist" is a common suffix that forms an agent noun, and can mean "one who
does
-" or "one who makes -" or "one who practices -" or "one who professionally
o
ccupied with -" or "one who professes or advocates -"
i'm not trying to be condescending either, just giving the literal translation
s, and concerned that "atheist" be defined -inclusively- rather than exclusive
ly.
DS> Agnost - generally, someone who has disassociated themselves with the
DS> concept of religion, and usually does not care what exists.
most untrue.
"a-" again means negation, eg, "no" or "not"
"gnosis" means "knowledge" - but not mere factoids or rote
DS> Personally, I am atheist, though I have agnost tendencies (I don't
DS> really care what's out there, but I don't think there is a god (or
DS> gods).)
i'm an atheist, have no personal experience of god/s and thus no direct
knowle
dge of them apart from what others have said and written. i do care what's
out
there, but really don't think that thinking about it will do me any good.
unt
il i have the experience of god, it's a moot issue. so to me, atheism is
livin
g without god/s in a world in which god/s exist for the majority of people.
;>
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From: tom kunesh
To: Donald Wilton @ 916/1008
Sub: Religious "facts" - not!
Date: 21 Nov 93 01:48:00
--------
EID:c9e1 1b750e00
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A9147988
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
DW> On 11-03-93 TOM KUNESH wrote to DONALD WILTON @ 916/10...
DW> many people use the term, just as we picked up the term xmas. the term
DW> applies to the use of the cross, in the form of the "x."
TK> i feel better now that i understand part of your hate-christianity
TK> complex,
DW> I realize that I still have a feeling of strong outrage.
DW> HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO KNOW ME FROM A PHRASE?
more than a phrase, Mr. Wilton, five of them, to be precise ...
DW> Gee Fredie, I hate to correct about small things like which brand of
DW> christofascist is the more evil, but the Russians have it dowb pat.
DW> The Catholics number 58 million, the Russkies about 100 million, and
DW> that may be low. They have the same level of doctrine, nonsense about
DW> women, only more restrictive. They don't slobber bullshit all over the
DW> world, but just wait.
DW> If there are more of them., and they smell as badly, and they have the
DW> same abhorrent attidtudes, aren't they the new brand name?
...
DW> A better term might be ttian, for the actual cross,
DW> that the Roman's mercifully put that whiner out of his misery with.
...
DW> As for the word Christ, since it is a pagan term, and
DW> that factg always excapes you, why not stop using it yourself?
from there it's a very small dare to presume to know some small part of
you an
d the hate that motivates your rhetoric.
DW> If I have made a mistake in sholarship, then correct it.
calling it "scholarship" lends the old-wive's-tale you wrote too much prestige
.
you made a mistake in spewing crap. and i did correct it.
DW> I operate from scientific method, if I make a mistake
DW> then when given sufficient information, I change it.
i have yet to see you operate from scientific method.
i may be blind, though, and would most willingly have it pointed out to
me.
as i remember, i did point out the mistakes you've made, but have yet to
see a
post from you acknowledging such mistakes, or a correction, or any changes
wh
atsoever - even a disagreement with me. given that total lack of response,
i'd
say that you operate from the ignorance method: if you make a mistake, then
g
iven sufficient information, ignore it.
DW> I regonize that your informations ounds better, and until given
DW> alternate data, I will act on it.
my information "sounds better"? not sufficient for me. is information that
sim
ply "sounds better" to you really "sufficient"? so maybe if i just hum ...
?
it doesn't seem like you're acting on anything now at all - just accepting
wha
t i wrote as better-sounding shit than what you wrote - but still no truth-con
clusion on the question. i suggest you act on it now and determine whether
i a
m to be believed or disbelieved. heck, i may write something that sounds
even
BETTER than anything i've written before - and it'll all be a con-job on
you!!
! quick! protect yourself from my better sounds! get some truth-prophylaxis!!
DW> This alone is not proof that I am a hate monger.
i like playing the Substitution Game. if i were to put the word "nigger"
in pl
ace of the other words you used in the above quotation to put people down,
i t
hink it would become obvious to most people, especially Blacks, that you
bear
a resentment against a category of people that could be best described as
"hat
e."
DW> When I deal with Russian Orthodox (every day in fact) I see hate.
and i see it mirrored in your writing.
DW> They see me as a Communist. Several refuse to work with me,
DW> to learn computer skills, because as an atheist, I categorically
DW> *must* be a communist. I find little enjoyment from name calling from
DW> them, and I dislike it here. I hate misogyny posing as love, war
DW> posing as peace (in the name of god), and aid posing as a means to
DW> spout babble. If I dislike some, chalk it up to their actions.
you were not talking about "some" above - you were talking about "all."
DW> I had mistakenly supposed that this forum was for the expression of
DW> non-theistic views. I have made an error ;< I will inform the
DW> moderator, and I'm sure that he will post new guidleines.
is this whining? (... i remember what you said about that other whiner who
you
were glad was put to death ...) ... or running to mommy?
DW> As a non-theistic person I choose to live according to the facts that
DW> I perceive.
as an atheist i live according to the reality my senses create, too.
DW> I get hated, and called names and lied about on a weekly basis.
i am not hated (not that i know of), nor called names, nor lied about.
DW> I do nothing in return, since nothing will be achieved.
cynicism. resignation.
DW> You have no idea of the level of hate we receive at the level of the
DW> street. I was homeless for years. On several cocasions, lying about
my
DW> philosophical state saved my life. The COPS were sympathetic to the
DW> cuase of the people who drove "the damned atheists" out of our
DW> encampment.
depends on what street you wanna talk about. i haven't been homeless in
the US
A, but i have done a fair share of hitch-hiking. religion came up frequently,
and i always did in Rome as the Romans did. as for your last comment, let
us t
hank former President Bush for stating his belief that atheists were not
worth
y of voting in America.
in Europe i didn't find that level of hate ... but then, maybe i don't talk
ab
out in public as much as you ...
DW> I dread the day that you have to confront the truth about
DW> how your associates would treat you, or if they had to save one person
DW> from drwoing, and you weren't that one, how would you then know
DW> Christian charity?
my associates know the truth about me - i do not hide my knowledge or feelings
. how they treat me is not, i believe, based on what they know about my
religi
ous beliefs, but rather on what they know about my caring and giving.
i don't need to know anything about christian charity to help a person in
need
. to me it would be the Best Thing in the World if atheists were able to
demon
strate their collective goodness and care for other human beings rather
than c
onstantly bash on god-believers in order to feel superior.
i try not to judge people, but here where text is all of the person i ever
see
, it is difficult for me to ignore the hideously negative tone i saw in
your m
essages. my apologies if i've offended you, but i took great offense at
your c
ategorical statements of "christofascist," "evil," "nonsense, "slobber bullshi
t," "smell as badly," "have the same abhorrent attidtudes," "put that whiner
o
ut of his misery." maybe you really don't hate so much ... i'll wait and
see w
hat else you post. 'til the next time i see you post irrational categorical
ha
te, i'll suspend judgment.
pax vobiscum.
;>
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From: tom kunesh
To: Dave Litton
Sub: forcing religion
Date: 21 Nov 93 01:56:00
--------
EID:c64a 1b750f00
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A9147B69
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
DL> if there is a god, and he is so great,
DL> he won't punish me for not having some
DL> senseless belief in something that is ununderstandable.
a good way of rationalizing one of the choices in Pascal's Wager.
;>
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From: tom kunesh
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Re: Agnostic / atheist ????
Date: 21 Nov 93 02:10:00
--------
EID:ea10 1b751140
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A9147E8C
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
DS> Atheism is indeed "disbelief".
this is a party line and a partial definition, but not an inclusive definition
that includes all varieties of atheism.
DS> Agnosticism, however, is "non-belief". A disconcern with religions
DS> in general, be it atheism, Christianity, Wicca, what have you.
agnositicsm is not a "disconcern" but rather a suspension of judgment on
the t
opic of the existence of deity based on a lack of reliable data.
JJ> What I was describing is how I see the meanings of terms should be
JJ> applied, as extracted from their Greek origins--just as you are
JJ> expressing how you think the terms should be applied. We'll let those
JJ> who proclaim their association with each group decide exactly what
JJ> they do or don't believe, that seems to be fair, right?
very good. but the majority is not necessarily correct in their definition.
JJ> Now, I've spoken to many, many atheists on BBS's and most of them
JJ> (especially the older ones) agree with my assertion that atheism is
JJ> more a "non-belief" than a "disbelief".
there's also a big difference in the popular theistic definition of "atheist"
and the definitions that atheists use for themselves.
"non-belief" is passive and attempts to avoid being associated with active
bel
ief/ faith. "disbelief" is active and promoted by antitheists.
JJ> I've only spoken to a few self-proclaimed agnostics and each of them
JJ> believed in some sort of higher intelligence, they just didn't ascribe
JJ> to traditional religions.
this is the more surprising to me. on what basis do they justify their belief
in "some form of higher intelligence"?
JJ> This is why I said an agnostic could be religious (having
JJ> faith in a supreme being),
religion is both more and less than faith in a supreme being.
atheists can be religious. check out Pinxten, et al.'s _Religious atheism?_
JJ> but just lacks the "special religious knowledge" (gnosticism)
JJ> which explains this being.
negative. you're getting ancient Gnosticism connected with Huxley's agnosticis
m, and for him, at least, there was no connection. he derived the word from
it
s common classical greek definition - knowledge, not special nor religious
in
nature. that stuff came much later.
JJ> If you still don't accept my observations, we could put it to
JJ> a vote here. I'd be curious to see the results myself.
a definition of atheism by popular vote!! i like it!!
our own Council on Atheistic Orthodoxy!! count me in!!!!
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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From: Sysop of Higher Technology: 8*14.4k
To: Donna Tinker
Sub: Re: NEW LISTINGS
Date: 21 Nov 93 10:59:00
--------
EID:07c5 1b755760
Donna, because the way the current system is set-up (this will change real
soo
n) new listings are processed during the night and are available the next
morn
ing. We are re-writing the residential side currently to be MUCH easier
and be
tter, and according to National Assoc. of Realtor speciications. (the latest
v
ersion, Oct '93. Look for big improvements in the residential side by
Christ
mas. --Mike--
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Higher Technology: 8*14.4k at 615-875-9969 (1:362/1211)
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From: tom kunesh
To: Marlyn Bumpus
Sub: Agnostic / atheist ????
Date: 24 Nov 93 13:50:00
--------
EID:a775 1b786e40
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A9191717
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
first off, let me say that i enjoyed your previous post and the inclusivism
of
buddhism within atheism. but then, we diverge ...
MB> Atheists are, by definition, non-believers in a supreme being of any
sor
t.
claiming that something is something "by definition" is merely reifies the
cur
rent conception of the thing, but does little to explain it, and even less
to
understand it.
i disagree with you that, "by definition," atheists are "non-believers in
a su
preme being of any sort." this has not been the case in Western history,
past
or present. as i have posted here before, both Socrates and the early Christia
ns were believers in "higher-beings" while at the same time prosecuted and
fou
nd guilty of atheism. today among some liberation theologians, atheism is
sugg
ested as a corequisite for theistic belief. dictionary definitions describe
co
mmon contemporary use, which is their purpose. however, dictionary definitions
should not be used to prescribe philosophical concepts.
MB> The word bears out this interpretation: A=without, theist=one
MB> believing in a supreme being.
let us be precise with the greek origins of the word atheos.
again, the greek prefix "a-" is simple negation, as in our "no" or "not".
it d
oes not mean "without". the word "atheist" comes from the greek "atheos",
the
latter part of the word ("theos") meaning god or divine being. "atheos"
was a
philosophical concept of "no-god" before it was a descriptive noun applied
to
a person.
also, words are created and used by human beings, manipulated to fit the
conte
xts of their communication. "atheism" and "atheist" have had different applica
tions to different ideas which continue even today. thus i am opposed to
any o
ne single exclusive definition used to describe or prescribe atheistic
though
t for all people in all times in all cultures.
your buddhism is itself one of three forms of heterodox atheistic hinduism,
al
ong with jainism and charwaka. daoism is another form of eastern atheism.
all
of these religious worldviews, in their early form at least, are without
the e
xperience of deity. but, to me, buddhism and daoism say very little about
"bel
ief in a supreme being" - to the point that some followers believe the founder
s to be gods.
MB> Agnostics can be everything from folks who cannot be bothered with any
MB> religion to those who may still believe in a supreme being but have
no
MB> idea as to the nature of that creature. A=without, Gnosis=knowledge.
MB> The label "agnostic" covers a much broader spectrum of
MB> beliefs/non-beliefs than does the label "atheist." The latter is far
MB> more specific and limiting in scope. One can be religious and
MB> agnostic -- but that usually means that the person doesn't adhere to
MB> any -ism and follows his/her own path.
here i disagree with you entirely. to me it is atheism which is the broader
co
ncept, and agnosticism the narrower concept within it.
"atheism" per se has been in linguistic existence for over 2500 years. the
wor
d "agnosticism" is not even 100 years old yet and was created by a British
int
ellectual so as to better and more politely sit on the religious fence between
the camps of theism and anti-theism.
to me, atheism means the lack of experience of deity. this can be any kind
of
lack - heterodox hinduism, daoism, natural religion, ignorance, scepticism,
an
ti-theism, you name it. even those who cannot be bothered with religion
are, t
o me, atheists - they have no experience of deity and live without it.
agnosticism covers a much smaller spectrum inasmuch as it is a conscious
quest
for religious information and a conscious decision to leave the question
abou
t the existence of god/s open. ... but even then, the agnostic has no experien
ce of deity, and is simply an atheist with an open mind and an open mouth.
in greco-roman time "atheism" meant both philosophically "no-god" and legalist
ically "lack of support for the state gods." as such it included thousands
of
anti-State theists. this concept of atheism has found its way back into
christ
ian theology, and offers a much wider application for the term "atheism."
one -can- be religious and atheist - read about it in _Religious atheism?_
edi
ted by Leo Apostel, Rik Pinxten, R. Thibau, F. VanDamme, et al, and _Atheism
i
n Christianity_ by Ernst Bloch, and in various commentaries on Marxism.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Marcos Quintero
Sub: Atheist
Date: 26 Nov 93 09:46:00
--------
EID:d823 1b7a4dc0
Quoting Marcos Quintero to Lois Frankel talking about :
-{ Atheist }-
On 11-24-93 19:53
MQ> As an atheist you are only fooling your self. You see only what you
MQ> want to see. By any chance would your parents have been atheists? I
MQ> promise you if you are ever in life threatening situation your
MQ> viewpoints will take a 180 degree turn.
MQ>
I do so wish that you wouldn't make posts such as this in the A_THEIST
echo. Find a feed for HOLYSMOKE and post it there so that I can tell you
what a fool you are without being off topic.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Jean Tucholski
Sub: Re: definition of atheist
Date: 28 Nov 93 13:12:00
--------
EID:b87c 1b7c6980
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A91E5431
PID: MacMorf 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
JT> A TRUE Athiest: Doesn't believe in God or Satan.
JT> But believes something is out there.
i think you've mistaken "atheist" with some kind of deism, but none that
comes
to mind. your description of "A TRUE Atheist" sounds mostly like something
ou
t of the movie "Alien."
Thomas Jefferson and other deists believed that God exists, but that God
did
not "break into" human events and was no longer involved in the managerial
upk
eed of the universe or souls.
;>
--- MacMorf 1.5.3
* Origin: Save Moccasin Bend! (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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From: tom kunesh
To: Neal Feldman
Sub: "In God We Trust" slogan
Date: 28 Nov 93 13:20:00
--------
EID:5d39 1b7c6a80
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A91E5602
PID: MacMorf 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
JJ> Could someone please re-post that little story on how "In God We
JJ> Trust" manged to make its way onto our currency? Thanks.
NF> [A message capture from the USA_EURLINK Echo Conference]
NF> Date: 04 Jan 92 17:29:59 From: Christopher Baker To: KATHY COLLINS
NF> Subj: all others pay cash [Was: Re: In God we trust]
...
NF>
NF> TTFN. Chris
thanks for reposting that one - and Chris for writing it. verrry interesting.
;>
--- MacMorf 1.5.3
* Origin: Save Moccasin Bend! (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Len Buckholtz
Sub: A_THEIST Echo Guidelines
Date: 28 Nov 93 14:44:00
--------
EID:d889 1b7c7580
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A91E69DF
PID: MacMorf 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
LB> Hi. Just read thru 3 screens of ALL SORTS of restrictions and "thou
LB> shalt nots" on your subconference. sonds like you're scared of people
LB> who have a Living religion as opposed to a NONreligion on godless form
LB> of religion.
there are also some of us here who have a living religion in atheism, who
are
not opposed to nonreligion, irreligion, areligion, or theistic religion,
godle
ss or godfull. ... and so far i haven't seen anybody -scared- of theists,
just
tired of debating them everywhere and seeing this place as an oasis of cool
m
ythless water among a barreness of desserts.
LB> Most definitions I have read of religion state that a religion is a
LB> group of tenets or a system of beliefs which tie together a group or
LB> groups of individuals in a specific dogma or set of ideals.
"most definitions" that a person -can- read, ie, that are printed and publical
ly available, tie "religion" into a "god-belief." our definition has some
valu
e, but not with the supposed numerical majority. ... also, what then distinqui
shes "religion" from political parties or nationalism?
LB> From the above, it would sound like you have not only a Religion, but
LB> a very RESTRICTIVE one at that, ie, you have NO god and no one else
LB> does and there can NEVER be proven an existance of same.
a minority opinion here: i have no god, -and-
if someone else has a god, that's fine with me as long as s/he doesn't try
to
make -me- do things according to his/her beliefs, -and- i, for one, having
no
experience of god, am totally unable to make what i consider to be a valid
tru
th claim in asserting that there is absolutely no god. my experience doesn't
c
over that much. i'm very much open to the demonstration or proof that god
exis
ts ... but none has been provided that matches my expectations. ...
my experience and reading gives me lots of bullshit-detectors, and i use
them
to the best of my ability and encourage others to use them, too.
LB> In this instance, I see that the Agnostics are much wiser than
LB> athiests as they say " we don't know as WE haven't seen a god, but
LB> there might be, so we'll keep the book open juust in case."
agnostics are pansy-ass atheists. [eeeek! forgive my french. ]
a wise atheist says, "I have not seen a god or spoken with one. I have heard
o
thers describe such a being to me, but still, I haven't experienced it.
I have
also heard other people give very good reasons for why others make-believe
in
such god-beings. For myself, I keep my own counsel and know my own experience
.
No god has come to me, and I live my life happily without one. So be it."
agnostics have the same lack of god-experience as atheists. but it is agnostic
s who hum and haw and remain ignorant of their own godless state, and atheists
who acknowledge their godlessness, their freedom, their will, ... based
on th
e same experience that agnostics have.
keeping a book open that you are reading progressively is good.
keeping a book open because you are unwilling to turn the page to see where
th
e story goes is cowardice.
keeping a book open because somebody else might come and read it for you
("you
" being illiterate) is a nice thought, but when a literate somebody hasn't
com
e around for ages, best to mark the page, close the book, put it away for
safe
keeping, and find something else to do.
LB> To draw a parallel, there were people who claimed also to be
LB> scientific who said we, as humans, could NEVER travel faster than 60
LB> mph,as the wid velocity would tear our skin off.
not a parallel at all. doubt and scepticism and cynicism are natural to
the hu
man species. somebody made a hypothesis that such high speeds would be detrime
ntal to humans, and somebody else proved it wrong - up to a point.
there may be -some- atheists who assert that the concept of "god" is a physica
l impossibility, but i'm not familiar with those atheists. the kind of atheist
i am familiar with is the kind that says, "i don't know those "gods," i
don't
-care- to know those "gods," i'm just fine the way i am." ... no assertions.
just the lack of god-experience. call it empirical if you like.
LB> There are also some who state that we can NEVER have transporters a
la
LB> Star trek, due to the fact that we can not transfer matter from one
LB> area to another. As we haven't done it yet, I feel free to state that
LB> unless we TRY, we can't say that it CAN NOT be done.
a nice thought. ... so?
LB> You might wish to read some of Einstein's writings. A most brilliatn
LB> man who UNDERSTOOD certain scientific postulates which state that
LB> animate matter does NOT come from inanimate matter. Scientifically
LB> not posible, due to subatomic physics.
Einstein was not and is not the sum of human intelligence, especially in
the f
ield of religion. as you yourself mentioned before, just because somebody
says
something is "scientifically not possible" in one age does not mean that
such
an assertion will hold true forever.
as for the impossibility of animate matter coming from inanimate matter,
my relations have long held that all matter is alive ... so?
animism? the new science? God injecting itself into the universe?
for this atheist, such questions are for bickering children.
;>
--- MacMorf 1.5.3
* Origin: Save Moccasin Bend! (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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From: tom kunesh
To: Len Buckholtz
Sub: totalitarian atheism
Date: 28 Nov 93 14:47:00
--------
EID:1aa3 1b7c75e0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A91E6A6B
PID: MacMorf 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
LB> Heard the term from Athiests in albania, ie when a totally communist,
LB> athiest, totalitarian state that they would censure ANY who were not
LB> atheists and follwoers of the party line.
LB>
LB> real open bunch of thinkers, huh!
totalitarianism breeds totalitarianism - and revolution.
atheism and communism have little to do with it.
;>
--- MacMorf 1.5.3
* Origin: Save Moccasin Bend! (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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From: tom kunesh
To: Rick Fagley
Sub: atheist armies
Date: 28 Nov 93 14:51:00
--------
EID:2dba 1b7c7660
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet A91E6B70
PID: MacMorf 1.5.3 Serial #000372
in the beginning was the Net ...
RF> There was a Supreme Court decision about 1969 or 70 that overruled a
RF> draft board and granted an atheist C.O. classification. My own local
RF> board didn't apparently believe it (or me) and refused my C.O.
RF> request. The U.S. Attorney was more on top of things, however, and
RF> effectively overruled them by declining to prosecute for failure to
RF> report. Told the board I had established a _prima fascie_ case for
RF> C.O. status.
RF> True about all wars, but the court held the creed did not *have* to
be
RF> religious in all cases. Certain substitutions were allowed, but a
RF> formalized creed and instruction/training were requirements. Wasn't
RF> easy to meet those requirements, but it didn't rule out atheists in
RF> all cases.
very interesting story! can you tell us how you built -your- prima facie
case?
ie, what texts or teachings did you cite? did you write an atheist creed?
;>
--- MacMorf 1.5.3
* Origin: Save Moccasin Bend! (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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From: Pamela Elle
To: Bruce Couper
Sub: Atheism
Date: 28 Nov 93 11:03:00
--------
EID:559e 1b7c5860
PID: RA 2.01
MSGID: 1:229/401 52972306
I guess that this would be an approprite area to discuss Atheim. I would
have
sent this earlyer but I lost the phone number!
Pam
--- FastEcho 1.30/g
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From: Lois Frankel
To: Marcos Quintero
Sub: ATHEIST
Date: 28 Nov 93 22:21:11
--------
EID:3dbe 1b7cb2a0
MSGID: 1:266/56@fidonet.org be830525
On 11-24-93 19:53 Marcos Quintero said something about Atheist, to which
I re
ply:
MQ> As an atheist you are only fooling your self. You see only what you
MQ> want to see. By any chance would your parents have been atheists? I
MQ> promise you if you are ever in life threatening situation your
MQ> viewpoints will take a 180 degree turn.
Again the fundies presume to tell us what we think & would do under
various circumstances! Yes, my parents are (and have always been)
atheists, as have I. And yes, I have been in some life-threatening
situations, and I was never tempted to "get religion." It seems like
you're admitting that religion is a crutch for people who can't face
difficulties on their own. But this really belongs in HOLYSMOKE, not
here.
... Religion, the manmade curse.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00P1
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From: Lois Frankel
To: Pat Kelley
Sub: ATHEISTS & OTHER FREETHIN
Date: 28 Nov 93 22:21:11
--------
EID:2dbc 1b7cb2a0
MSGID: 1:266/56@fidonet.org be830526
On 11-13-93 15:35 Pat Kelley said something about Atheists & other freethin,
to which I reply:
PK> Atheists and other freethinkers - is a group of people from the
PK> greater Sacramento Area (as far away as Galt and Chico) who meet to
PK> exchange friendship, conversation, information in which there is a
PK> common interest. We're a friendly bunch! our goal is to promote the
You should be aware that this message area is echoed internationally, so
many of us will be unable to join you, though we might like to! Any ints
on how to get a similar organization started in other parts of the
world?
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00P1
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--------
From: Lois Frankel
To: Derek Maddox
Sub: RE: GOD AND THE BOY SCOUT
Date: 28 Nov 93 22:21:11
--------
EID:1fd3 1b7cb2a0
MSGID: 1:266/56@fidonet.org be830527
On 11-12-93 22:22 Derek Maddox said something about Re: god and the boy
scout
, to which I reply:
DM> I'm not aware of any government funding or subsidy offered to BSA.
We
DM> pay full price for use of facilities at all parks and campgrounds, and
DM> are subject to the same rules and restrictions as any group. As for
DM> United Way, this is simply organized private donations. No government
DM> money is included in these donations. Many corporations offer
DM> matching gifts, but not the federal or state governments.
That's one reason I don't support the United Way; I'd rather pick the
organizations I support rather than having an organization pick them for
me, especially if those organizations have religious requirements and
practice discrimination. But I remember from my school days that the boy
and girl scouts regularly recruited and held meetings in the public
schools, which removes them from the realm of the purely private.
... This is not a tagline
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00P1
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From: Lois Frankel
To: Derek Maddox
Sub: GOD AND THE BOY SCOUTS
Date: 28 Nov 93 22:21:11
--------
EID:a01e 1b7cb2a0
MSGID: 1:266/56@fidonet.org be830528
On 11-12-93 21:58 Derek Maddox said something about God and the boy scouts,
t
o which I reply:
DM> Law? Must we remove the requirements for church involvement from our
DM> community and family member badges?
DM> NOTE: These "requirements" are pretty loose. There are a few
DM> suggested activities, then there is a line which allows the child to
DM> meet the requirement based on any activity agreed to by himself and
his
DM> leaders. We routinely sign these requirements based on secular
DM> community service for our non-religious boys. If the boy doesn't have
DM> a church, he can't very well accomplish church-based activities. He
DM> shouldn't, however, be denied the opportunity to advance in rank. And
DM> in our troop, such children are *not* penalized in any way.
I'm glad your troop is so flexible; my memory of girl scouts is that the
requirements for merit badges were fairly rigid and did not take into
account individual and community situations. (Of course that was a long
time ago 8-| )
... Heck is reserved for those who don't believe in Gosh.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00P1
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From: Lois Frankel
To: Derek Maddox
Sub: NEWS ARTICLE
Date: 28 Nov 93 22:21:11
--------
EID:3c90 1b7cb2a0
MSGID: 1:266/56@fidonet.org be830529
On 11-13-93 11:59 Derek Maddox said something about News article, to which
I
reply:
DM> Thank you for the distinction between contraception and abortion. One
DM> of my biggest problems with abortion is the way many women's groups
DM> are equating the two, making them equally acceptable alternatives.
I
I know of no such groups, and I have been active in NARAL, NOW, and
Planned Parenthood for years. What these groups (and I) believe is that
both contraception and abortion should be readily available and
affordable. But we also agree with the cliche that an ounce of
prevention is better than a pound of cure. Unfortunately, many
anti-abortion groups are also anti-contraception because they, not we,
equate the two and consider both to be unacceptable.
... Don't hit me, Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00P1
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: Occult ritual and the boy
Date: 25 Nov 93 11:01:19
--------
EID:18ad 1b795820
FR> Same straw man. In any event, I agree with you. The Boy Scouts of
FR> America should remain a _religious_ organization and there should be
no
FR> vague and ambiguous claims about it being otherwise.
LF> And it should stop recruiting and meeting in public schools.
Agreed... as well as getting any government subsidies or promotion.
... Brief:the only monosyllabic oxymoron in the English Language.
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: "In God We Trust" slogan
Date: 26 Nov 93 17:07:42
--------
EID:1ad9 1b7a88e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Jeff!
22 Nov 93, dixit Jeff Jones ad All:
JJ> Could someone please re-post that little story on how "In God
JJ> We Trust" manged to make its way onto our currency? Thanks.
I suspect someone else will have beaten me to this by now, so I'll hold
off, but I DO have WHYCOINS.GOD available here on my system for file
request/download. :)
... Draft dodger as vice-president...only in America!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia: Church of Jesus Christ, Rocket Scientist (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Jeff Jones,
Date: 25 Nov 93 16:47:38
--------
EID:8ad7 1b7985e0
MSGID: 1:232/310 100bb035
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: "In God We Trust" slogan
Jeff jones,
I hope you will get a fuller account of the origins of the slogan "In
God We Trust," but here is quick version: The slogan first was put on coins
during the civil war. Even then it was controversial and part of political
compromise package. During the big controversy about the silver standared
in
the 1890s, it was satirized as "In God We Trust--for the other 44 cents,"
because the worth of silver had fallen so far below the nominal value of
the
coins. During the McCarthy era the slogan was moved to paper money--and
undoubtedly was chiefly responsible for the eventual collapse of the Soviet
Union. Sure it was!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Chad Reichle
Sub: Re: vouchers schools
Date: 24 Nov 93 23:17:06
--------
EID:c950 1b78ba20
> If you missed the level of hostility towards religion in general
> in this conference, then I guess we don't have a lot to discuss. :)
hostility is in the mind of the beholder often enough. do not equate intoleran
ce for having ones government usurped as intolerance for religion. religion
is
protected in this country.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
* Origin: Rights On!-Host/Moderator of A_THEIST-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Re: "In God We Trust" slogan
Date: 24 Nov 93 23:18:02
--------
EID:9fe2 1b78ba40
> Could someone please re-post that little story on how "In God We Trust"
> manged to make its way onto our currency? Thanks.
you can file-request it here as:
WHYCOINS.GOD
anytime except 0100-0130 ET and Zone 1 ZMH at 1200-9600+ HST/V32 for FidoNet
l
isted systems only.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Marcos Quintero
Sub: Re: Atheist
Date: 25 Nov 93 19:10:48
--------
EID:112a 1b799940
> As an atheist you are only fooling your self. You see only what you want
> to see. By any chance would your parents have been atheists? I promise
> you if you are ever in life threatening situation your viewpoints will
> take a 180 degree turn.
how would you know?
if you don't have anything on-topic, don't post.
here's the short-short rules:
we don't do god[s], here.
this Echo is for issues regarding the separation of state and church and
for t
he dissemination of atheist information. if you have anything to offer along
t
hose lines, please do so. otherwise, please refrain from posting in this
Echo.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
* Origin: Rights On!-Host/Moderator of A_THEIST-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: Jeff Vineburg
To: Paul Feonic
Sub: God And Tasmanians.
Date: 26 Nov 93 00:00:14
--------
EID:f0eb 1b7a0000
MSGID: 1:273/943.0 2cf58d5e
PF> Recent child abuse case in the Australian state, Tasmania, was
>pretty much trashed thanks to a old Tasmanian law that means the
>child, an atheist, cannot testify because he doesn't understand the
>Christian Oath.
It's them damn Tasmanian Devils again, ain't it?
* SLMR 2.1a * It's ok. I'm a doctor.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Nuclear Fish BBS - Take it to HOLYSMOKE please (1:273/943)
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--------
From: Jeff Vineburg
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: God and the boy scouts
Date: 26 Nov 93 00:00:16
--------
EID:e042 1b7a0000
MSGID: 1:273/943.0 2cf58d60
LF> DM> emotions. If, on the other hand, it has great significance to your
> DM> brother scout standing next to you, why should you deny him something
> DM> which costs you nothing?
LF>Then make it optional - let those who do not believe in gods promise
to
>do their duty to humanity, truth, justice, the Earth, or whatever
Now I really must object. I don't believe in Earth.
* SLMR 2.1a * Where is this handbasket I'm always told I'm in?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Nuclear Fish BBS - Take it to HOLYSMOKE please (1:273/943)
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--------
From: Jeff Vineburg
To: All
Sub: Atheist
Date: 26 Nov 93 00:00:18
--------
EID:32c5 1b7a0000
MSGID: 1:273/943.0 2cf58d62
MQ>As an atheist you are only fooling your self. You see only
>what you want to see. By any chance would your parents have
>been atheists? I promise you if you are ever in life
>threatening situation your viewpoints will take a 180
>degree turn.
They're baaaaack.
* SLMR 2.1a * I had a Philly Cheesesteak in Texas.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Nuclear Fish BBS - Take it to HOLYSMOKE please (1:273/943)
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: David Rice
Sub: JeZeus "Picture" at school
Date: 29 Nov 93 09:18:10
--------
EID:b83a 1b7d4a40
?> LANSING - Lawyers arguing the legality of hanging a
?> conventional picture of "Jesus" on a wall in Bloomingdale High
?> School could reach accord this week to end a yearlong debate
?> over religious freedom in the rural village west of Kalamazoo.
DR>
DR> Does this mean that Bloomingdale High School produces blooming
DR> idiots?
Apparently, if they cannot see the clear violation of the separation of
church and state in this action.
... Oh, you said a hard DISK? I must have misunderstood.
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: All
Sub: Morals in Russia (preUSSR)
Date: 29 Nov 93 09:21:11
--------
EID:f0fa 1b7d4aa0
Pre USSR Russia had a VERY strong religious aspect... and in case anyone
wishes to check they were as despotic as the USSR ever was.... you had
far more bloodthirsty tyrants and the quality of life was far below that
even under the darkest days of soviet rule.
Not that I am supporting the soviet state... I do not... but the claims
I have heard that it was their atheistic nature that made them 'bad' is
ludicrous...
What made them bad is their vicious nonrepresentative and unresponsive
totalitarian dictatorship nature.
Go figure.
... Can you trust me with a child if you can't trust me with a choice?
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Purgatory BBS: Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell! (1:3406/5.0)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Outraged Fundies
Sub: Re: vouchers schools
Date: 29 Nov 93 20:02:28
--------
EID:3f60 1b7da040
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
* Original: FROM..... Christopher Baker (1:124/9015)
* Original: TO....... Chad Reichle (1:124/9005)
* Original: FORUM.... A_THEIST
* Forwarded by Silver Xpress
* Additional Comments by Steve Quarrella (1:124/9005)
> If you missed the level of hostility towards religion in general
> in this conference, then I guess we don't have a lot to discuss. :)
hostility is in the mind of the beholder often enough. do not equate intoleran
ce
for having ones government usurped as intolerance for religion. religion
is
protected in this country.
TTFN.
Chris
-!- DB B2102/001027
! Origin: Rights On!-Host/Moderator of A_THEIST-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
-- Steve Quarrella Has Additional Comments --
I think that this fits rather well, doesn't it? David Rice, how about
putting this into the FAQ?
... Code zero, zero, zero...Destruct zero.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia: Church of Jesus Christ, Rocket Scientist (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Georgene Harkness
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Catholic Atheism
Date: 01 Dec 93 06:21:00
--------
EID:8e1e 1b8132a0
MSGID: 1:124/7011.0@fidonet 2cfc8c2c
TK>received an excellent education, a very catholic (ie, universal - look
TK>it up) appreciation of other worldviews, and became an atheist, all
Tom, as a "good" Catholic student, I am well aware (since
second grade) of the definition of "catholic". No need to look
it up.
TK>it up) appreciation of other worldviews, and became an atheist, all
TK>under the aegis of the Church. ... for all of which i am grateful.
The good things I received from my Catholic education
could/should have been learned in another type of school, a
school that didn't load me down with a lot of religious and
emotional claptrap that I have had to divest myself of over the
years. Some of the physical abuse and fear that was fostered due
to the abuse will stay with me and the other children (Catholics
and non-Catholics alike, in my school) for the rest of our lives.
I know that all schools (of any religious persuasion) are not
alike, and generalization is dangerous. Nevertheless, I
determined never to subject my children to the brainwashing
conditions I endured in Catholic school, and now that my children
are grown, I have never regretted my decision.
Georgene
* MegaMail 2.10 #0:
--- RBBSMail v18.2
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--------
From: Bruce Couper
To: Pamela Elle
Sub: Re: Atheism
Date: 29 Nov 93 09:18:11
--------
EID:0a7a 1b7d4a40
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org be8ab22f
Said Pamela Elle to Bruce Couper on the subject of -
"Atheism":
PE> I guess that this would be an approprite area to discuss Atheim. I
PE> would have sent this earlyer but I lost the phone number!
PE> Pam
This area is indeed, but the focus may be narrower than you expect, Pam.
As the echo moderator, Christopher Baker, will tell you and which is
explained clearly in his frequent posting of the echo rules, this area
is for the discussion of atheism and free thought and the separation of
church and state.
You might want to check out HOLYSMOKE too, Pam. There the theists and
atheists may debate the merits of their beliefs/non-beliefs.
Perhaps Christopher will forgive me this slight intrusion on his
responsibility here since I know you. I thought it best to answer
publicly here since you addressed me and it may be of value to other
newcomers as well.
Read a bit here Pam, and especially read what Christopher posts. I'll
e-mail you some stuff at CONNECTION. Anything you'd like to chat with
me about which would not be of interest to others here or would be
off-topic, mail to me in area 7 at CONNECTION and fill in 1:229/15 when
asked for my address.
Enjoy yourself.
... Bruce Couper Internet: bruce.couper@canrem.com Fido: 1:229/15
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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--------
From: Anastasia Books
To: Jean Tucholski
Sub: Re: definition of atheist
Date: 27 Nov 93 21:08:00
--------
EID:121c 1b7ba900
LF> JT> A TRUE Athiest: Doesn't believe in God or Satan. But believes
LF> JT> something is out there.
Isn't that more along the beliefs of an agnostic? :-)
Anastasia
---
SLMR 2.1a Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!
--- DlgQWK v0.71a/DLGMail
* Origin: The Quest (Springfield, IL) (1:2430/1066)
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--------
From: Anastasia Books
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: No god? absolutely!
Date: 27 Nov 93 21:10:00
--------
EID:d1fa 1b7ba940
LF>On 10-27-93 12:34 Jim Gambini said something about No god? absolutely!,
t
o
LF>which I reply:
LF> JG> think i've come to that belief rationally. I enjoy rational dialogue
LF> JG> about God because i believe everybody has a belief in *some sort*
of
LF> JG> God, even if it's just themselves as their god.
LF>Well, it rubs ME the wrong way for someone to presume to tell me what
I
LF>do or not believe. I suppose you could mangle the language to claim
I'm glad you said it. That offended my atheist sensibilities. :-)
Anastasia
---
SLMR 2.1a (A)bort (R)etry (I)nfluence with a large hammer
--- DlgQWK v0.71a/DLGMail
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--------
From: Anastasia Books
To: Marcos Quintero
Sub: Atheist
Date: 27 Nov 93 21:13:00
--------
EID:7034 1b7ba9a0
MQ>As an atheist you are only fooling your self. You see only what you want
to
MQ>see. By any chance would your parents have been atheists? I promise you
if
MQ>you are ever in life threatening situation your viewpoints will take
a 180
MQ>degree turn.
I'm an atheist and was almost killed in an accident, but it didn't
reverse my views. To infer that all atheists will change their views
when something drastic happens, is absurd.
By the way, don't Christians "only see what they want to see?" :-)
Anastasia
---
SLMR 2.1a You shall know the truth, and it shall make you odd.
--- DlgQWK v0.71a/DLGMail
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Jeff Vineburg
Sub: Atheist
Date: 30 Nov 93 00:23:02
--------
EID:4889 1b7e02e0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2cfad8f8
REPLY: 1:273/943.0 2cf58d62
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
Friday November 26 1993 00:00, Jeff Vineburg wrote to All:
>> been atheists? I promise you if you are ever in life
>> threatening situation your viewpoints will take a 180
>> degree turn.
JV>
JV> They're baaaaack.
They're igggggggggnorant!
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Occult ritual and the Boy Scouts
Date: 01 Dec 93 00:21:10
--------
EID:c2f8 1b8102a0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
20 Nov 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
dm>>> True, the promise to do your duty to your God is part of the Scout
dm>>> oath. However, we don't throw out kids based on their religious
dm>>> persuasions.
Of course, we've been over this.
FR> Yes; agreement. I myself have never seen a kid rejected or
FR> ejected from a Mormon cub-scout group yet I suspect that's
I never saw it myself, although I could list on two hands the names of
people who molested boys while using their position of authority as scout
leader to do so. Never ONCE did I see a statement from Irving about these
atrocities, and shit, I had close encounters (No, not sex :) with three
of
them. As I mentioned previously, I think it's a regional thing.
FR> scout masters, though. And I've seen a scout master put a
FR> rifle that had missfired to his own eye then, as he brought it
FR> away from his face, it discharged... Not a good impression
FR> though I could have wished that this particular one _had_
FR> taught us all a valuable lesson.
Well, that's just stupidity. That doesn't apply to the topic at hand. :)
FR> You probably worked hard for that merit, though.
I worked very hard for that medal, and still take some pride in it.
However, I don't really care for where it came from at this point.
FR> It may not be
FR> a badge of honor any more yet it still represents are great
FR> deal of your time and effort.
It is a badge of character, and they tell me at work all the time that I'm
a character. :)
FR> And rather than bitching, couldn't people form their own troops
FR> after they acquire a certain number of kids that want to form a
FR> troop?
I honestly don't know what's involved with starting a troop. But sooner
or later, the Pious People will show up. It used to INFURIATE me that
certain people (including the flag-waver I mentioned previously) in the
troop had such a bad attitude towards ADHD kids. Oh? So Scouts is just
for non-ADHD kids? I told the flag-waver at one point that he should
be grateful that HIS kid didn't have to take a tacklebox full of pills every
day to control his behaviour.
sq>> When I was a leader, I dropped that out while we were reciting it.
sq>> Either nobody noticed, or nobody cared.
FR> I suspect it's because no one noticed.
I know for a fact that the Scoutmaster didn't -care-. He was one of the
good guys.
FR> As usual a few bad seeds ruin it for the rest and leave a bad
FR> taste in the mouthes of those who observe it.
No argument there.
dm>>> Let me ask you a question. What obligation do you incur
dm>>> by a sworn duty to a God you don't believe in? If you have
dm>>> no God, you also have no duty.
I have a duty to not play-act for the benefit of other people. If it
were "Duty to Satan", would things be different?
FR> I look forward to a _rational_ answer, however.
And we GOT one. I'll be interested to see how this unfolds.
FR> This is a
FR> relativly minor injustice and a religion-oriented demand to
FR> knowingly mouth a lie
Isn't there a commandment about bearing false witness? How can those who
would normally demand we adhere to that commandment (because we're part
of
the club, like it or not) now demand that we do NOT adhere for the sake
of
everyone who DOES adhere?
FR> denied because he (or she) refuses to mouth the lie.
A scout is trustworthy...Baden Powell also apparently wanted to put "A
Scout is not a fool" into the Scout Law very early on. I like that.
FR> As usual, the few ruin it for the many. There _is_ a
FR> like-minded scouting organization which doesn't demand piety,
FR> isn't there?
Not that I know of.
... Copywight 1991 Elmer Fudd. All wights wesewved.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia: Church of Jesus Christ, Rocket Scientist (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Jeff Vineburg
To: Sysop Of Higher Technolo
Sub: Re: NEW LISTINGS
Date: 01 Dec 93 00:00:42
--------
EID:7bcd 1b810000
MSGID: 1:273/943.0 2cfc24fa
>speciications. (the latest version, Oct '93. Look for big
>improvements in the residential side by Christmas. --Mike--
We don't do xmas here in the A_THEIST echo.
How was that, Chris?
* SLMR 2.1a * Marilyn Monroe killed Kennedy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Nuclear Fish BBS - Take it to HOLYSMOKE please (1:273/943)
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Agnostic / atheist ????
Date: 30 Nov 93 08:01:00
--------
EID:0aea 1b7e4020
MSGID: 1:2617/117 a78ce8cb
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Tom Kunesh Said: ]-----
> most untrue.
> "a-" again means negation, eg, "no" or "not"
> "gnosis" means "knowledge" - but not mere factoids or rote
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
The reason I said that is based on common accepted definition. According
to t
he ancient Greeks, I am wrong. According to the general populace of the
20th
century, I am correct. It's just an implied meaning.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Kevan Coleman
To: Branch Haines
Sub: Re: definition of atheist
Date: 30 Nov 93 08:21:20
--------
EID:d4c1 1b7e42a0
BH> I doubt that sheer coincidence could explain the way in which this
BH> happened, the first eruption of Pinatubo in several
BH> centuries, at just the right time.
Jeez, your sounding like a superstitious Fundy! Just because something
happens is no reason to connect it with supernatural mumbo-jumbo.
BH> Seems more like someone or something somewhere having a good laugh at
BH> our expense.
Well that blows your theory; the Philippine government was trying to extort
more money from us, the volcano blew BEFORE an agreement was reached. The
fac
t is we saved a ton of money. All it proves is that greed got the best
of the
m.
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Re: Atheist
Date: 30 Nov 93 02:54:12
--------
EID:197e 1b7e16c0
> So, tell me, what are atheists like me blind to? And is this some kind
> of requirement, that all atheists are a certain way?
please don't debate theists in here unless you are imparting some separation
o
r atheist info.
it serves no purpose and clutters the Echo with replies that are off-topic.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Sysop of Higher Technology: 8*14.4k
Sub: Re: DOWNLOADING LYNC3.0
Date: 30 Nov 93 02:55:29
--------
EID:be0d 1b7e16e0
> Do you really think I would run a commercial system with bad files?????
> Paranoid is one thing.... but please feel free to DL it, any reccomended
> file on the system has been throughly examined, run, tested and used by
> us at HTS.
you are in the wrong Echo. please find the proper one and post there.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
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--------
From: Rick Fagley
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: atheist armies
Date: 01 Dec 93 00:12:11
--------
EID:47f0 1b810180
MSGID: 1:221/128@fidonet.org c0921b16
TK> RF> True about all wars, but the court held the creed did not *have*
to b
e
TK> RF> religious in all cases. Certain substitutions were allowed, but
a
TK> RF> formalized creed and instruction/training were requirements. Wasn't
TK>very interesting story! can you tell us how you built -your- prima facie
ca
se?
TK>ie, what texts or teachings did you cite? did you write an atheist creed?
Hi, Tom--
I was fairly *into* Objectivsm (who says it's a religion! ) at
the time and cited all my back issues of the _Objectivist Newsletter_
and attendance at lectures, study groups and so forth. Time was in
limited supply when I filed the application as I'd lost a student
deferment, but I filed right after I heard about the USSC decision,
and told the board I hadn't applied previously due to the religious
requirements stated in the Selective Service Act.
As I said, the board denied the application, claiming it was
filed on expediency only. I didn't have a lot of optimism that they'd
approve it, but felt it was certainly worth a try at the time. 1970
was *not* a good year to be 1A when they started drawing birthdates
out of hats.... Being a corpsman in Viet Nam probably wasn't a bit
less dangerous, but would have been more palatable to my ethics at
least.
Regards,
-Rick Tue 11-30-93 7:41pm
Internet: rick.fagley@homebase.com Fido: 1:221/128
---
* DeLuxe2/386 1.25 #823sa * the group W bench is where they put you if...
--- FidoPCB v1.4 [f0f99/c]
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--------
From: Jeff Jones
To: tom kunesh
Sub: Re: Agnostic / atheist ????
Date: 01 Dec 93 11:31:47
--------
EID:10ca 06620770
MSGID: 1:202/102 2cfd9642
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
*** Quoting tom kunesh to Jeff Jones ***
tk> very good. but the majority is not necessarily correct in their
tk> definition.
Sure they are. In any distinct group such as atheists, Baptists, homosexuals,
firemen, astronauts, whatever, the majority (if no all of them) share somethi
ng in common be it a belief or an action. This commonality is what distinguis
hes them from the rest of society and into a group. If the majority of
atheis
ts hold certain beliefs or non-beliefs, then the rest of society should
recogn
ize them as such. Alas, many non-atheists don't recognize us for what we
are
but instead place their own uniformed, bigoted stereotype on us. So, the
majo
rity MUST be correct in their definition because it is THEY who are defining
T
HEMSELVES. Whether the rest of society accepts this definition is another
mat
ter.
tk> there's also a big difference in the popular theistic definition
tk> of "atheist" and the definitions that atheists use for themselves.
For argument's sake, we'll let the majority of atheists define what atheism
is
since they are best qualified to do so.
tk> this is the more surprising to me. on what basis do they justify
tk> their belief in "some form of higher intelligence"?
I believe the agnostics are a product of an evolving religious society.
Becaus
e of their upbringing and surroundings, they feel compelled to believe in
_som
ething_ but just can't associate with traditional, ancient religion. I
wouldn
't be surprized if many of them end up in cults like 'scientology'.
tk> atheists can be religious. check out Pinxten, et al.'s _Religious
By definition, a-theists are without religion so a person with religion
AND cl
aiming to be religious is _not_ an atheist. Again, we'll let the majority
of
atheists define atheism.
tk> JJ> but just lacks the "special religious knowledge"
tk> (gnosticism)
tk> JJ> which explains this being.
tk> negative. you're getting ancient Gnosticism connected with
tk> Huxley's agnosticism, and for him, at least, there was no
tk> connection. he derived the word from its common classical greek
tk> definition - knowledge, not special nor religious in nature. that
tk> stuff came much later.
Positive. I _was_ using the original meaning of the word as demonstrated
by t
he gnostics (to plagiarize, Huxley's stuff came much later). I also seriously
doubt if Huxley's idea of agnosticism fits well with today's self-proclaimed
agnostics (but notice that my definition still does...).
tk> a definition of atheism by popular vote!! i like it!!
tk> our own Council on Atheistic Orthodoxy!! count me in!!!!
No need. This echo already provides a definition of what atheism is, care
of i
ts sysop.
--- Telegard 2.7.b7a Beta
* Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS 619-697-8873 San Diego CA 9600v32 (1:202/102)
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--------
From: Jeff Jones
To: tom kunesh
Sub: Re: A_THEIST Echo Guidelines
Date: 01 Dec 93 11:38:07
--------
EID:10ca 06620771
MSGID: 1:202/102 2cfd9643
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
*** Quoting tom kunesh to Len Buckholtz ***
tk> agnostics have the same lack of god-experience as atheists. but
tk> it is agnostics who hum and haw and remain ignorant of their own
tk> godless state, and atheists who acknowledge their godlessness,
In other words, atheists are completely without religion and agnostics can
be
religious but lack the necessary "special religious knowledge". Hmmm.
Now wh
ere did I hear that before...
--- Telegard 2.7.b7a Beta
* Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS 619-697-8873 San Diego CA 9600v32 (1:202/102)
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--------
From: Tommy Sugrue
To: Georgene Harkness
Sub: Catholic Atheism
Date: 01 Dec 93 19:53:27
--------
EID:61c3 1b819ea0
MSGID: 1:3611/19 85FE17DD
Actually Catholic school does helpp you have a better understanding of
religion. I went for 7 years, and I and all my friends who escaped the
religous prison are atheist. That is what I mean by a better
understanding of religion. All I got out of Catholic school was a bit
of a better education than public school could give me and Atheism. But
did you know that here in Georgia they are again forcing the students to
pledge to the flag everymorning, in the PUBLIC school system. Now to my
knowledge this is illegal, they claim that you do not have to pledge if
you wish not to but this is bullshit, I am a Senior in my school and
they FORCE EVERYONE to pledge, if you don't pledge you get ISS, (in
school suspension.)
ebY"[dA څDbV;1!1+SZ!D;$"(hV&qV|L A
8Q쑤N_M&i@[
--- WM v3.10/92-0357
* Origin: Mother's Kitchen, Centerville, GA. 912-953-2708 (1:3611/19)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Neal Feldman
Sub: Morals in Russia (preUSSR)
Date: 01 Dec 93 10:54:48
--------
EID:2e3b 1b8156c0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Neal!
29 Nov 93, dixit Neal Feldman ad All:
NF> Not that I am supporting the soviet state... I do not... but
NF> the claims I have heard that it was their atheistic nature that
NF> made them 'bad' is ludicrous...
This is a hot subject over in HOLYSMOKE right now...come on over and throw
on a log! :)
... Never pet a burning dog.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia: Church of Jesus Christ, Rocket Scientist (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: CHURCH&STATE Echo
Date: 30 Nov 93 19:26:29
--------
EID:13d4 1b7e9b40
> I'll hammer your hyman for this one since the origin system doesn't
> appear to be CM.
1:2613/228 is CM but you can link here if you wish.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: All
Sub: A_THEIST Echo Guidelines - regular repost
Date: 01 Dec 93 14:09:43
--------
EID:e022 1b817120
Basic Disclaimer:
This Echo operates under the premises espoused by American Atheists, Inc.,
but is in NO WAY connected to that organization other than the Moderator's
paid membership. This Echo does not represent American Atheists, Inc., nor
does it claim any link to those founders and writers of that organization.
The opinions expressed in this Echo are those of the writers identified
in
the header of each message. No other responsibility is expressed or implied
for the content of the messages in this Echo.
This Echo does not exist to promote so-called 'freethought' groups or
publications [Freedom From Religion Foundation, American Humanist
Association, American Rationalist, Prometheus Books, Atheists United,
Humanist Quest for Truth, etc.] other than the goals of American Atheists,
Inc., as stated below. Promotion of those groups will be considered
'off-topic'. Participants from those groups are welcome to post so long
as
they remember that prohibition and stick to rationales without advertising.
Publication of reading material or periodicals sources or addresses will
not
be considered off-topic and are welcome in this Echo.
Echo facts:
This Echo is Hosted and Moderated by Christopher Baker from Rights On!,
FidoNet Node 1:374/14, in Titusville_FL_USA. Anyone desiring a link to this
Echo should contact their local Backbone links. The Echo is now available
on the Zone 1 Backbone and is sent to Zone 3 through Jackson Harding at
3:800/857.
This Echo provides a forum for the discussion of atheism and free thought.
It is not a sounding board for rabid anti-religionists or for
fundamentalist dogmas intended to 'save our souls' from the power of an
open
mind.
NOTE:
Those who wish to engage in religious debate outside the scope of the
separation issue are directed to the HOLYSMOKE Echo from 1:152/20 [which
is now on the Zone 1 Backbone and is also gated to Zone 3 as
above] or one of the other religious criticism Echos.
The subject of proof or non-proof of any god or gods is off-topic in this
Echo. As atheists we know the existence of god or gods is unproven and
unsupportable by logic, reason or scientific proof. The debate of existence
of god or gods is unnecessary and unwelcome. Go to HOLYSMOKE or a bible
Echo
for such debate. In this Echo, there is no god or gods nor has there ever
been nor will there ever be.
The subject of changing the name or scope of this Echo from the posted name
and scope will be considered off-topic and not permitted. Anyone who finds
the Echo does not meet their expectations of what should be discussed is
encouraged to start one of their own that does.
Correction of the spelling, grammar, or style of other people's messages
is
off-topic. It is pointless noise. Refrain from it.
Proselytizers and preachers of the 'gospel' will be unwelcome if they cannot
debate without resorting to 'you must believe this' or 'you must have faith'
or 'you will all fry in hell', etc. Such outbursts will result in the links
to the offending system being cut if the Sysop of that system cannot prevent
future outbursts of that type.
Personal attacks will not be permitted. Participants will confine themselves
to ideas and facts and avoid personality clashes or ego wars. Private
messages are not permitted. Sysops are expected to restrict this Echo to
public messages only.
In the discussion of atheism, the following definition will be the
operational precept of the Echo:
a-theism = free of religion.
Aliases are not permitted. It's time for atheists to come out of the closet.
Handles may be used so long as they are not used to avoid responsibility
for
the attached posts, are normally used in other Echos, and where the actual
identity of the person under the handle is available upon request to the
Sysop of the posting system or the Moderator of this Echo.
A_THEIST ECHO OFF-TOPIC POSTING PENALTIES SCHEDULE
These penalties are listed only for those who cannot follow directions or
stick to the posted Guidelines and who fail to curtail their non-compliance
after being instructed by the Moderator to do so. It has been necessary
in
the past to disconnect systems from their links to the A_THEIST Echo because
the Sysops of those systems refused to keep their traffic or the traffic
of
their Users on the posted topics of the Echo, namely, separation of state
and church issues and atheist information.
Step 1: First off-topic message will result in a warning in the Echo;
Step 2: Second off-topic message will result in warning in the Echo
and Netmail to you or your Sysop if you are a User;
Step 3: Third off-topic message will result in the disconnection of
the offending system at the NEC and REC levels as required.
These penalties will be invoked only as a last resort when reason and
redirection has failed to bring the poster back on-topic or when it is
obvious that the poster has no intention of adhering to the posted
Guidelines.
End of Off-Topic Penalty Schedule
The President [Jon Murray] and Editor Emeritus [Madalyn O'Hair] of American
Atheists have been invited to participate in this Echo. Anyone desiring
membership or more information about the organization may write to Jon
Murray at: American Atheists, Inc., P.O. Box 140195, Austin, TX, 78714-0195.
Their telephone is: (512) 458-1244, 0900-1700 CT.
Echo Purpose:
1. Stimulate freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious dogmas
and practices;
2. Collect and disseminate information on all religions and their
histories;
3. Advocate and labor for the complete and absolute separation of
church and State;
4. Advocate and labor for a thoroughly secular system of education
available to all;
5. Encourage development and acceptance of a human ethical system
stressing the responsibility of individuals to society;
6. Develop and propagate a social philosophy in which man/woman is
the central figure who alone must be the strength of humanity;
7. Promote the study of arts and sciences for the enrichment of
human life.
"Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts
the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical
outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent
of
all arbitrary assumptions and creeds." American Atheists, Inc.
The current list of primary Echo link points is as follows:
1:374/14 [Host/Moderator], [Zone 1] Backbone, also available via the PODS.
Zone 3 is linked through 3:800/857.
Sample files of the A_THEIST Echo and a listing of Atheist files are
available from 1:374/14 as A_THEIST.ZIP or the magic filename of ATHEIST.
For anyone who does not understand these Guidelines as published, there
is
a fully annotated version available as A_ECHO-A.RUL for file request from
this system. It is also included in the A_THEIST.ZIP sample file.
File requests are honored anytime except 0100-0130 ET and Zone 1 ZMH
[0500-0600 EDT; 0400-0500 EST].
Welcome to a new dawn in religiously unimpeded thinking! [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
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--------
From: Phillip Dampier
To: All
Sub: Attention all connects!
Date: 01 Dec 93 14:10:05
--------
EID:2f9a 1b817140
[cross-posted from CHURCH&STATE Echo]
CHURCH&STATE is now officially listed in the FIDOSTAT.NA file as applying
for
backbone status.
If you are interested in having this conference on the backbone, please
contac
t your NEC and have him send a message to the REC in your region asking
him to
please allow CHURCH&STATE to be carried on the backbone. We need all of
you t
o request the conference so that we can get the echo moving on the backbone.
--- DB B2102/001027
* Origin: Rights On!-Host/Moderator of A_THEIST-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: Al Camus
To: All
Sub: ATHEISM
Date: 30 Nov 93 18:47:43
--------
EID:043d 1b7e95e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 2cfb954f
I've never claimed to understand how atheism can be considered a valid
theological creed. What atheism propounds is the removal of the established
re
ligious institutions from political and sociological influence. While this
may
be a laudable end, I feel that it is already 99% accomplished. Christianity
i
s dead, or in it's final paroxysms. What we need now is something NEW, somethi
ng which will fill the gap Christainity. left in it's passing. What you
people
propose is simply to be done with it all, and be consigned with the strictly
empirical and heuristic. What you fail to understand that this a rew, WORSE
re
ligion, worse than Christiandom's idiot mythology. Your new religion's name
is
SCIENCE, and it's virtues are reckless hedonism and ultimatey nihilism.
It's
time to put an end to your undeserved pride at decrying a nonexistent God,
and
start working to fulfill humanity's ultimate purpose, that of discovering
it'
s own nature.
--- TMail v1.31.2
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange * 28 Lines * 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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--------
From: Derek Maddox
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: God and the Boy Scout
Date: 01 Dec 93 23:55:00
--------
EID:64c1 1b81bee0
MSGID: 1:3611/19 85FFA640
FR>That would be rather like walking into a church while it was engaged
in rit
u
FR>and demand that they change or remove a section of it. Like it or not,
the
FR>Scouts of America _is_ a religious organization. The fact that those
group
s
FR>you are in touch with do not mandate a deity religious belief of any
kind i
s
FR>probably -- what? -- 80 or 90% of the Boy Scouts.
FR>Yet, still, it remains a religious group... Specifically, Christain.
My friends from the troop at the synagogue in Memphis would be horrified
to find out that their organization is really a subversive Christian
organization! Open your eyes, Fredric! There are scout troops in
countries where Christianity is a capital crime! They may have their
own religious beliefs, but it certainly isn't Christianity.
Scouting organizations (wherever they are located) reflect the
*traditional* values of the local culture. In the United States, these
traditional values are basically Christian, therefore the BSA reflects
Christian values. As our culture becomes less homogenous, as a greater
number of different beliefs and cultures are assimilated, the BSA *must*
also change to reflect these changing values. We need not completely
abandon our religious roots. We must simply avoid forcing children to
swear oaths they have no intention or ability to uphold.
Failure to keep the doors open to *all* boys, regardless of faith,
spells eventual death for a truly worthwhile organization.
OLX 2.1 TD If the world were logical, men would ride sidesaddle!
--- WM v3.10/92-0357
* Origin: Mother's Kitchen, Centerville, GA. 912-953-2708 (1:3611/19)
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From: Derek Maddox
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: RE: GOD AND THE BOY SCOUT
Date: 02 Dec 93 00:12:00
--------
EID:faea 1b820180
MSGID: 1:3611/19 85FFA641
LF>That's one reason I don't support the United Way; I'd rather pick the
LF>organizations I support rather than having an organization pick them
for
LF>me, especially if those organizations have religious requirements and
LF>practice discrimination. But I remember from my school days that the
boy
LF>and girl scouts regularly recruited and held meetings in the public
LF>schools, which removes them from the realm of the purely private.
We don't give through the United Way either. We give to our church,
which in turn supports several homeless shelters, children's homes, and
schools. Other than that, we like to specifically "target" several
environmental organizations for our donations.
As for scouts recruiting and meeting in public schools, there is a
relatively simple explanation. Like the Kiwanis, Rotary, and Lions
Clubs, the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America (as well as 4-H and
other groups) are considered "civic" organizations. The city has deemed
their existence in our community to provide some intrinsic value *to*
the community. As such, we are offered use of civic facilities on a
non-interference basis for meetings and recruiting.
Although "God" and "religion" and "church" and other words like that are
used frequently in BSA manuals, I have never in 25 years of scouting
seen any child refused membership on religious grounds. As long as we
maintain such open doors, the city has no requirement to kick us out.
OLX 2.1 TD Mental Floss prevents Moral Decay.
--- WM v3.10/92-0357
* Origin: Mother's Kitchen, Centerville, GA. 912-953-2708 (1:3611/19)
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From: Derek Maddox
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: GOD AND THE BOY SCOUTS
Date: 02 Dec 93 00:20:00
--------
EID:b23b 1b820280
MSGID: 1:3611/19 85FFA642
LF>I'm glad your troop is so flexible; my memory of girl scouts is that
the
LF>requirements for merit badges were fairly rigid and did not take into
LF>account individual and community situations. (Of course that was a long
LF>time ago 8-| )
Oh, it's not just my troop. You'll find the same attitude in the vast
majority of troops. There are some troops, sponsored by more
fundamental organizations (e.g. Mormon churches), that hold a very hard-
line on religion. Except in Utah and some of the surrounding areas,
though, this is quite rare.
Requirement for merit badges are *still* stiff. There are very few
which have any dealings with religious values, but those badges are
*not* required for advancement. They are purely optional for the kids
who want to earn them.
As for "long time ago," I understand. When I stopped a while ago to add
up the number of years I've been a scouter, I was truly dismayed. There
aren't many things I've been doing for a quarter of a century!
OLX 2.1 TD If the world were logical, men would ride sidesaddle!
--- WM v3.10/92-0357
* Origin: Mother's Kitchen, Centerville, GA. 912-953-2708 (1:3611/19)
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From: Derek Maddox
To: Lois Frankel
Sub: NEWS ARTICLE
Date: 02 Dec 93 00:31:00
--------
EID:5db8 1b8203e0
MSGID: 1:3611/19 85FFA643
LF>I know of no such groups, and I have been active in NARAL, NOW, and
LF>Planned Parenthood for years. Wh