God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: JIM COWAN
To: JASON LEVINE
Sub: Jesse Lies For His Gods
Date: 23 Jun 94 17:22:41
--------
EID:E159 F4D78AC0
-> Makes sense, especially considering that Christmas is NOT Jesus's Bda
-> It was a pagan holiday that the Christians "appropriated" as their ow
-> Jesus was born some time in the summer, I believe.
Yes....Merry Saturnalia....
The part about Jesus being born in the summer is a real jump. The actual
existance of the historical Jesus can only be supported through third
party references.....his date of birth is an educated guess at best. (at
the very best)
--- GOMail v1.2 [DEMO] 06-26-94
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From: Rick Chadderdon
To: Mike Ruskai
Sub: re: Introduction...
Date: 04 Jul 94 11:35:44
--------
EID:8981 1ce45c60
MSGID: 1:209/254.7@FidoNet 41c8b8ec
REPLY: 1:107/634 5c14dfb9
Mike,
On friday, July 1 '94 at around 20:06:50 you said to me about 're: Introductio
n...':
MR> Some senseless babbling from Rick Chadderdon to Mike Ruskai on 07-01-94
MR> 13:10 RC> Mike,
MR>
MR> RC> On monday, June 27 '94 at around 17:35:03 you said to me about
're:
MR> RC> Introduction...':
MR>
MR> MR> Some senseless babbling from Rick Chadderdon to Mike Ruskai on
MR> MR> 06-27-94 14:51 RC> At 23:56:00 on June 23 '94, Mike Ruskai said
to
MR> MR> All:
MR> MR>
MR> MR> RC> Here's a "universal skeptic."
MR> MR>
MR> MR> RC> Got to have some basic axioms to start with, though. What're
MR> MR> RC> yours?
MR> MR>
MR> MR> The closest thing to that I have is that everything on this planet
i
s
MR> MR> equal in importance, and hurting something is wrong. Though that
MR> MR> bends considerably (i.e. someone brutally murdering Adolf Hitler
is
MR> MR> absolutely condonable, and recommendable).
MR>
MR> RC> Do you bend it for food, as well? :)
MR>
MR> RC> I've been an on and off vegetarian for years...
MR>
MR> To eat, something has to die. I don't mind eating a dead pig or cow,
I
MR> just don't like how they are treated while alive. Same with egg chickens
.
MR> Most vegetarians I know are so because of the treatment of the animals,
MR> not because it is healthier (it isn't), or they don't like eating anythin
g
MR> that was killed (at which point I would point out that plants are alive,
MR> too).
Yeah, but it's a lot harder to anthropomorphize a plant. :)
MR> So, if I am ever rich, I'll start a network of farms that treat the
MR> animals right before killing them right (not hanging them upside down
MR> while slitting their throats and then beginning to skin them with them
MR> still possibly being alive).
Good idea.
Actually, I would say that my basic belief structure is:
No human behavior is unacceptable unless said behavior unnecessarily harms
or
attempts to control another being incapable of informed consent.
Pretty liberal, I know. :)
The word that gives it it's flexibilty is, of course, "unnecessarily."
hehe... It opens up *worlds* of room for interpretation.
Rick
--- April V1.0 unreg
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--------
From: Shadow Warrior
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: athiest or not?
Date: 30 Jun 94 23:47:00
--------
EID:3a29 1cdebde0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rHu
CB> TB> overdiligence of the atheist is the lawsuit to get "In God We
CB> TB> Trust" off U.S. currency. Sure, having an inscription which endorses
CB> then, too, these same occultists [fundi, etc.] like to use the monetary
If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that atheists and occultists¨
a
re the same. I certainly hope I am reading this incorrectly. Those that
you¨
would call "occultists" (Thelemites, Druids, Wiccans) are definitely NOT¨
ath
eistic in their beliefs.
CB> inscriptions as 'proof' that this is a 'Christian' nation. the U.S.
This is definitely a "christian" nation. I can sympathize with those that¨
wo
uld like "In God We Trust" removed from the currency. Although my¨ conviction
s regarding the constitional gaurantee of seperation of church and¨ state
do n
ot run that deep, I can certainly see from where they are coming. m¨ If
the mo
tto was equally offensive to you as it is to them I am sure some of¨ the
same
people would be protesting it that are against the change now.
Chuk Chapman
>here you go moderator...my name!
--- FMail 0.96ā
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From: Shadow Warrior
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Blue Laws
Date: 30 Jun 94 23:54:01
--------
EID:32fb 1cdebec0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rHu
On <25 Jun, 17:11>, Christopher Baker wrote to Henry Mcgrattan :
CB> we still have what we call 'blue laws' in many locales but i don't know
CB> of any force to be closed on Sundays.
Yes it is still very much illegal to buy the EVIL ALCOHOL on the day of
the¨ l
ord in South Carolina. One of my favorite things to do when I am visiting
is¨
order a beer at the local pub on Sunday and then get into a philysophical¨
di
scussion on why I can't have beer on the day HE, the manager, worships god.
All the while just to show someone how ridiculous the law is. (Just doing
my¨
part to try to make this free country free)
Chuk Chapman
--- FMail 0.96ā
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From: Shadow Warrior
To: Ian Hebert
Sub: Moment of Silence
Date: 01 Jul 94 00:06:02
--------
EID:f55b 1ce100c0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rHu
On <20 Jun, 14:16>, Ian Hebert wrote to Larry Burton :
IH> I am opposed to a moment of prayer during the school day, or its'
IH> alternative these days, a moment of silence; I am not opposed to a
IH> particular child's taking a moment or two for a silent prayer.
I almost agreed with you here. I was OK until I read this part. I fully¨
sup
port the schools ALLOWING time for "moment of silence". Believe me when
I¨ sa
y I am not christian. I almost went thorugh the roof when my daughter told¨
m
e her teacher took part of her recess because she didn't "ask the blessing".¨
(I am glad it turned out to be a isunderstanding, it could have gotten real¨
m
essy real quick!)
I do support "a moment of silence". I believe you would too, if that moment¨
of silence is allowed and not religiously conotated.
No one, not even an atheist :), has ever been hurt by a moment to relax
and¨ g
et ones mind refocused.
Chuk Chapman
--- FMail 0.96ā
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From: Sean Mann
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Re: Athiests Kill Too
Date: 04 Jul 94 01:08:00
--------
EID:c530 1ce40900
MSGID: 1:260/825 86D52E03
-=> Quoting David Macdonald to Sean Mann <=-
DM> Re: Re: Athiests Kill Too
DM> Sean Mann,
DM> I am not at all sure you are atheist; you sound like an
DM> anti-theist instead, one who not so much does not think there is a god
DM> but rather one who dislikes god(s). I would not insist on this,
DM> though: just a thought.
David,
I am an athiest, I don't believe there is any supreme being
whatsoever, but I do belive that the Bible is a good guidlines to leading
a
good life. I don't like reliegions, they have made me weak, therefore I
ransack them, and I'm just starting to recover and am progressing in making
a new life for myself without religion.
Its hard to understand you see. I was quite the Christian for most
of my life, then I broke away from Christianity and started believing in
other religions, which made me even weaker. And after I sobered up and
realized that all of the religions I tried all worked for sometime. Then
I
became a polytheist. I relized that that was way out of proportion and I
decided to see that there was no god, there were no devils or demons, no
heaven, no hell, just the mind and the body.
Now I hate all religion and am becoming stronger in mind and in body
every minute of every hour. My mind is not like it was, confused and derranged
,
but perfectly organized, strengthened and powerful, cleansed. I also believe
that psychokinesis can explain alot of things that man hasn't been able
to
explain yet.
share your veiws with me.
Later,
SM
... I kill myself for you ... I kill you for myself
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11
--- WM v3.10/94-0186
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From: Sean Mann
To: Ian Hebert
Sub: Re: HEY
Date: 04 Jul 94 01:11:00
--------
EID:ae0b 1ce40960
MSGID: 1:260/825 86D52E04
Yeah, they've told me not to respond to him, he's on permanent medication.
SEan
... War for Territory
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11
--- WM v3.10/94-0186
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From: Sean Mann
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Re: Athiests Kill Too
Date: 04 Jul 94 01:14:00
--------
EID:c7a2 1ce409c0
MSGID: 1:260/825 86D52E05
Henry,
Thank you for showing me that point of view, I never looked at it
that way.
I now realize that it's not the worshipers I hate, it's simply the
information they were fed. Thanx alot, man.
Naph
... Danger Will Robinson!!! Danger!!!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11
--- WM v3.10/94-0186
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--------
From: Greg Mcdaniel
To: Jeff Vineburg
Sub: the love of God
Date: 03 Jul 94 22:31:54
--------
EID:e412 1ce3b3e0
MSGID: 1:3670/1 86D514BD
John 3:16
For GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that
whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
--- WM v3.10/92-0484
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From: Greg Mcdaniel
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: Atheism - the big lie?
Date: 03 Jul 94 22:46:30
--------
EID:9948 1ce3b5c0
MSGID: 1:3670/1 86D514BE
You shouldn't believe the theory of evolution.
John 3:16
For GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that
whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 corinthians 8:6
But to us there IS BUT ONE GOD ,THE FATHER........
genesis 1:1
In the begining GOD created the heavens and the earth.
Your church of christ friend,
Greg
P.S. I urge you to try reading the King James version. It would do you a
world of good.
--- WM v3.10/92-0484
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From: Greg Mcdaniel
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: what is this ?
Date: 03 Jul 94 22:48:45
--------
EID:260f 1ce3b600
MSGID: 1:3670/1 86D514BF
I am glad someone is a christian and believes the Bible
--- WM v3.10/92-0484
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From: tom kunesh
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: alt.atheism FAQs (1 of 8)
Date: 30 Jun 94 22:41:09
--------
EID:a130 1cdeb520
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA38FA85
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
TK> THE ALT.ATHEISM FAQ WEB
JL> Thanx for posting this...but I wish you had broken it down into
JL> smaller sections. FIDO stuff is truncated to 200 lines (in our area,
CB> if he will make it available as a file requestable from his Bossnode
CB> [1:362/122], i will be happy to go after it and make it available here
CB> for download or file-request.
good deal. i'm uploading it - ATHEISM.FAQ - to 1:362/122 with this
session, and will repost your msg to /122 for him to make it freqable.
thanks.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: ... think radically, act logically ... (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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--------
From: John Jancewicz
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 01 Jul 94 23:37:00
--------
EID:6051 1ce1bca0
MSGID: 1:362/970.2 2e14aadc
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E1385A9
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
30 Jun 94 22:55, Christopher Baker wrote to John Jancewicz:
CB> first thing you need to do is re-read the U.S. Constitution. the
CB> 1st Amendment is where the establishment clause is located.
I have been reading too many gun debates. :)
CB> the U.S. Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what the
CB> Constitution means. that's as close to 'gospel' as you're going
CB> to get in 'interpretation' of the document.
So if regan/bush stacked the court as they planned,
thier word would be gospel to you?
CB> there is not a single reference to any deity in the U.S.
CB> Constitution and two prohibitions against getting involved with
CB> religion at the government level. that sums up how the document
CB> stands.
Yes. The document does not stand on this matter, we rely
on subjective intrepretations of it. . . most of which
were unused until the earlier part of this century.
JJ>> Were they for the absoulte non-involvement of any theology
JJ>> into the public legislative arena?
CB> yep. check the docs. also see Internal Revenue codes for tax
CB> exemption of religions. one specific prohibition is the use of
CB> tax exempt status to further a political operation.
Religions are political? :)
JJ>> . . .Anyway this might spark a discussion that is actually on
JJ>> topic, and derogatoy to either side of the debate.
CB> not really. this is very old news here. we're more concerned with
CB> contemporary activities.
This is not contempory? Issues concerning the intrepretation
of our Constition are a ongoing and contempory occurence.
CB> the Constitution exists as it is now
CB> and the USSC has consistently ruled that state and church must be
CB> separated as intended.
CB> you might want to take this tired thread
CB> to HOLYSMOKE Echo where you'll be soundly engaged. [grin]
Are you paid for your referals to Holysmoke?
:)
--- GoldED/P32 2.42.G1219
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Jason Levine
Sub: We're Watching TV
Date: 02 Jul 94 18:36:00
--------
EID:d213 1ce29480
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3B6410
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JH> Well, in a nutshell, an aethiest does not believe in a omnipotent
JH> being kno to some cultures as "God".
JL> Then, by your definition, Buddhists are athiests. Confucists are
JL> atheists. Hindu are atheists. Recheck your definition. Atheists don't
JL> have beliefs in gods, period. It is not limited to the single deity
JL> found in monotheistic religions, nor is it limited to "gods". It isn't
JL> limited to any kinds of religions, because it's NOT an ACTIVE
JL> disbelief! It's a LACK of belief. Big difference.
buddhists -are- atheists. confucianists are atheists. charwakan hindus are
ath
eists. jains are atheists. daoists are atheists. no need to recheck JH's
defin
ition at all - it fits -some atheists. ... and there -are- also atheists
who d
o their thing with -active- disbelief - they're atheists, too.
why try to make -all- atheists conform to one definition?
it's like trying to create a definition for all Catholics or all Democrats
- n
o one definition will quite fit all, and there -needs- to be room for -inclusi
on-, not the narrowness of exclusion.
JH> Well, who says that aethiesm isn't a "religion"? A religion simply
JH> means a belief, a mode of thought. Science is a religion...
JL> Um....no. Again, recheck your definitions. Science, while some may
JL> pursue its calling avidly (even fanatically), is NOT a religion.
for some, science -is- a religion. science for some people is a complete
world
view (a la Ninian Smart) that promotes a complete materialist rationalistic
ap
proach to human living and meaning.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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From: tom kunesh
To: Jeff Vineburg
Sub: nonsense again - you said it
Date: 02 Jul 94 18:41:21
--------
EID:ddf1 1ce29520
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3B6551
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JV> At a NJ vo-tech school, a moment of silence was observed at graduation.
JV> Initially they had asked for a moment of prayer, but the school board
JV> said no. Then they asked for a moment of silence, but the board again
JV> turned them down.
JV> So the natural thing to do was for the speech-giver to ask for a
JV> moment of silence in her speech and bowed her head.
JV> The school board will be polling its members to see if retribution is
JV> indicated. The holier-than-us religious will stop at nothing.
personally, i like moments of silence. in fact, i'd prefer whole -minutes-
and
even an hour of silence. silence is non-denominational and may even help
clea
r people's heads to help them think. silence is no more "holy" than noise,
and
i think it would be great if -more- atheists would themselves promote "minute
s of silence".
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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From: tom kunesh
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: moral development (was sa
Date: 02 Jul 94 18:44:59
--------
EID:d3a3 1ce29580
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3B662B
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
HM> I agree that Freud is dated. Of course so is Socrates, and Darwin,
HM> and a lot of others. However, those who carry on in his tradtions have
HM> some great ideas--particularly the developmental object relations
HM> theorists. They talk about development, moral and othewise, and refine
HM> Freud's literal oral, anal, etc.
HM> And never do they push god as a factor in personal or moral
HM> development. So they follow Freud in this respect at all.
HM> On the other hand I've never seen a better defense of atheism and
HM> explanation for goddism than Freud's _Future of an Illusion_.
personally, i don't think there's -one- best defense or explanation of atheism
- i like 'em all - Nietzsche, Feuerbach, Marx, Freud, Durkheim, et al.
but Freud's _Future of an Illusion_ -is- a doozie, and should be required
read
ing for all atheist neophytes.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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From: tom kunesh
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: the Echo god
Date: 02 Jul 94 21:53:44
--------
EID:c37f 1ce2aea0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3B9268
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
CB> otherwise, this is your final warning to stay on-topic. your Bossnode
CB> will also receive a copy of this msg. it's your choice. stay and
CB> contribute or get lost. thanks.
TK> i -do- contribute, about atheism and being atheist, and probably more
TK> than 90% of the people here, and all of it relevant and pertinent to
TK> living atheism.
CB> your digressions do nothing for the Echo but amplify the noise level.
i'd like to test that opinion here by public vote.
personally, i doubt that you'd be sustained.
TK> i -will- stay and contribute, as per your request, subject only to the
TK> narrowness or broadness of your subjective interpretation of what
TK> atheism is and isn't. kick me off if you like - that's your
TK> prerogative and really of no import to me.
CB> what atheism 'is' for the sake of the Echo Guidelines has been clearly
CB> defined in terms of the Echo. take it or leave it.
a false binary choice. i both reject its truth -and- stay here.
atheism is -not- what you say it is, regardless of your position of authority
here. but ... since you're God here, you can, of course, make sure that
everyb
ody plays -your- way.
TK> if you -do- decide to ban me, and it is -your- choice, of course, all
TK> you need do is tell me, at this level of my attention, and i will cut
TK> the feed myself. pure and simple. it's actually been expected, and
TK> prepared for.
CB> no. the choice is yours as it has been since the first time i
CB> instructed you to take your Marx and Hegel arguments elsewhere. it's
CB> up to you completely whether you stay or leave. if, as you say, it is
CB> of 'no import' to you, then check out.
no. the choice to banish me or not banish me is -yours-. i will continue
to re
ad and write about atheism in all of its historical and multi-cultural context
s, and discuss atheist writers not-approved-by-the-American-Atheist-Church-Inc
., and about a/theist religious development. Karl Marx was a good atheist.
i t
hink it ludicrous to ban discussion of him or his atheist development and
writ
ings simply because he's called a philosopher. same with Ayn Rand and Sigmund
Freud and Ingersoll and Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson. ... but we atheists
are not to mention them?! ha!!
TK> good luck in your decision-making.
CB> it's your choice. if you don't like the subject matter here,
i -love- the subject matter here ... atheism and being a_theist.
i disagree with your narrow interpretation of it (separation of church &
state
issues) and your arbitrary application of the so-called rules.
CB> why don't you start your own atheist Echo and make it wide open to
CB> anything you feel appropriate. a Sysop out in Texas did so. i never
CB> heard about his Echo again. he may still be out there. check the ELIST
CB> for ATHEIST without the '_'.
if push comes to shove, i may.
nice of you to point out the mortality rate of such ventures. ;)
then again, Usenet's alt.atheism is probably more my inclination.
CB> if you stay, stay on-topic as defined in the Guidelines.
CB> it's completely up to you.
no, Chris, it's not -completely- up to me.
-you- have made the sacred Guidelines. you can -change- the sacred Guidelines.
you interpret the Guidelines. and you decide the application of the Guidelines
.
legislator, judge and jury of the Guidelines all in one. - an excellent
exampl
e of the power of god. and heck, i'm just a little atheist who doesn't believe
in that kind of god-like power. ;)
i can either abide by the rules or i can ignore them.
in this case, since i believe myself to be on-topic and discussing atheism
and atheists, and since i believe your rules to be self-serving and overly
res
trictive on a national Fido echo, i will ignore them.
you are now the judge and the jury, and i am the accused.
i, the accused, say that you, the judge, have unjust Guidelines
and unjust application of those Guidelines.
in these United States, according to the Fully-Informed Jury people,
the jury also has the right to throw out the very Guidelines itself as unjust.
i have made my plea for broader understanding and unjust Guidelines in this
ec
ho.
i want to stay, and if i were to stay, i'd continue writing about all atheist
topics under the sun, not only "separation of Church & State" issues, but
excl
uding the HolySmoke theist bashing.
i now rest my defense.
now the decision goes to you.
it's completely up to you to decide whether i stay
or am no longer allowed here.
thanks.
;>
-tpk
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Jason Levine
Sub: Re: Re: Simpler Biology
Date: 02 Jul 94 22:03:22
--------
EID:0f92 1ce2b060
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3B94AA
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JL> Is that an official religion, though?
CB> there is no such thing as an 'official religion' in the U.S.A.
CB> anything that claims to be a religion, is a religion in this country.
CB> the government may not determine what constitutes a religion.
JL> Waitasec...I've heard stuff like "Scientology is a
JL> government-recognized religion" several times.
JL> Doesn't it mean anything for the govt to recognize you?
contrary to CB's claim, the U.S. government -does- determine what constitutes
a religion in this country. (sorry, Chris.)
non-profit religious status is a gov't determination, and is not given out
to
just anybody or anything. there -are- restrictions on what constitutes a
relig
ion - especially as pertains to finances, taxes and fraud.
the U.S. government also determined that polygamy was not a proper constitutiv
e element of Mormon religion, so the Mormon Church officially changed its
reli
gion to mirror the State's request.
the U.S. government also determined that Native American religion was not
a pr
oper religion and banned Native American religious ceremonies up til the
1978
American Indian Religious Freedom Act.
the U.S. government also determines if drug use or animal sacrifice constitute
religions.
so, whereas what Chris says is, in principle, correct, ie, that
"the government may not determine what constitutes a religion"
-is- openly mouthed about, it is not true in the real world.
and Scientology is gov't-recognized only inasmuch as they are recognized
by th
e State as a non-profit religious organization like any other real or bogus
re
ligious organization.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: the Echo god
Date: 02 Jul 94 22:11:48
--------
EID:c37f 1ce2b160
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3B96A4
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
CB> your digressions do nothing for the Echo but amplify the noise level.
CB> if you want to philosophize, do it in PHIL.
CB> what atheism 'is' for the sake of the Echo Guidelines has
CB> been clearly defined in terms of the Echo. take it or leave it.
CB> no. the choice is yours as it has been since the first time i
CB> instructed you to take your Marx and Hegel arguments elsewhere.
CB> it's up to you completely whether you stay or leave.
CB> it's your choice.
CB> if you stay, stay on-topic as defined in the Guidelines.
CB> it's completely up to you.
to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, a leading proponent
of the separation of Church and State, ;)
"...difference of opinion is advantageous in atheism. The several sects
perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity
attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the
introduction of atheism, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned;
yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the
effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half
hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
hey - why don't we put my continued presence here to a vote?!
i will most assuredly abide by the outcome of such a referendum.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: John Jancewicz
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 03 Jul 94 00:39:00
--------
EID:9f60 1ce304e0
MSGID: 1:362/970.2 2e160a7f
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
01 Jul 94 11:22, Steve Quarrella wrote to John Jancewicz:
SQ> 29 Jun 94, dixo John Jancewicz a All:
SQ> Umm...you're the second person to come into the echo within the
SQ> month claiming that the Second Amendment had anything to do with
SQ> church and state. From what tract are you guys taking this
SQ> information?
I didn't see the other post. . . Also I was discouraged
from debating the subject by the moderator. I thought
seperation issues were "on" topic. I really don't
like the other echos such as HOLYSMOKE, or even
HOLYBIBLE. . .
I like your posts, but I can't think of a suitable echo
to discuss matters.
JJ>> What did the founding father think of theology when
JJ>> concerning the state and initiating sound legislation?
SQ> Here's some quotes right back at you, as out of context as yours
SQ> were. This "white" will complement your "black" just nicely:
SQ> "...difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The
SQ> several sects perform the office of a common censor over each
SQ> other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men,
SQ> women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have
SQ> been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced
SQ> an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of
SQ> coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other
SQ> half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the
SQ> earth."
SQ> [Thomas Jefferson, "Notes on Virginia"]
Thanks for the good quotes.
Talk the moderator into allowing the discussion and
I'm game. :)
--- GoldED/P32 2.42.G1219
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--------
From: John Jancewicz
To: tom kunesh
Sub: the Echo god
Date: 03 Jul 94 00:47:00
--------
EID:904c 1ce305e0
MSGID: 1:362/970.2 2e160b27
REPLY: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3B96A4
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
02 Jul 94 22:11, tom kunesh wrote to Christopher Baker:
tk> to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, a leading proponent
tk> of the separation of Church and State, ;)
tk> "...difference of opinion is advantageous in atheism. The several
tk> sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is
tk> uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and
tk> children, since the introduction of atheism, have been burnt,
tk> tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch
tk> towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make
tk> one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To
tk> support roguery and error all over the earth."
This same quote twice in one day? :)
tk> hey - why don't we put my continued presence here to a vote?!
tk> i will most assuredly abide by the outcome of such a referendum.
What if they vote to burn you for your beliefs?
Conform or be cast out.
--- GoldED/P32 2.42.G1219
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Chris Lee
Sub: You definition
Date: 03 Jul 94 16:41:42
--------
EID:cf9b 1ce38520
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3C9AC6
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
CL> weak atheist and strong atheist?
CL> people come up with everything to put a name to it don't they,
it's a pretty broad category with millions of people who all share the one
nam
e, but have quite different thoughts about its origin, purposes, and history.
CL> isn't atheist someone who doesn't believe in god?
that's one way of putting it ... ;)
CL> and by not believing in god, consequently it
CL> also means that there is no god, does it not?
there are quite a few Americans who don't believe in President Clinton,
but such disbelief does not mean that there is no President Clinton.
more examples? -not- believing that the world was round, or that the earth
cir
cled the sun, did not and does not consequently also mean that the world
is fl
at or that sun circled the earth.
then again, belief -can- affect individuals' and groups' realities.
but there is no causal relationship.
CL> so how can there be a distinction,
guess.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: John Jancewicz
Sub: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 03 Jul 94 16:47:25
--------
EID:94c0 1ce385e0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3C9C1D
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JJ> Thanks for the good quotes.
JJ>
JJ> Talk the moderator into allowing the discussion and I'm game. :)
boy, you sound familiar. haven't i met you somewhere before?
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: John Jancewicz
Sub: the Echo god
Date: 03 Jul 94 16:52:54
--------
EID:41ee 1ce38680
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3C9D66
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
tk> to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, a leading proponent of the separation
tk> of Church and State, ;)
tk> "...difference of opinion is advantageous in atheism. The several sects
tk> perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity
tk> attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the
tk> introduction of atheism, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned;
tk> yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the
tk> effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other
tk> half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
JJ> This same quote twice in one day? :)
huh? ;)
tk> hey - why don't we put my continued presence here to a vote?!
tk> i will most assuredly abide by the outcome of such a referendum.
JJ> What if they vote to burn you for your beliefs?
JJ> Conform or be cast out.
sounds biblical -- eeek!
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 03 Jul 94 16:57:57
--------
EID:abcb 1ce38720
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3C9E95
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JL> Waitasec...I've heard stuff like "Scientology is a government-
JL> recognized religion" several times. Doesn't it mean anything for the
JL> govt to recognize you?
CB> that was an I.R.S. case where Scientology had to prove they met the
CB> tests for religious exemption from taxation under I.R.S. standards.
CB> the I.R.S. is not the government. it is merely a taxing tool.
the IRS is not the -entire- government, but it is an -integral part- of
the U.
S.A. government every bit as much as the U.S. Treasury or U.S. Army.
standards for tax exemption based on religious grounds are discussed and
passe
d by the U.S. government. in effect, religious tax exemption is based on
stand
ards approved by the U.S. government.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: Mike Ruskai
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: Introduction...
Date: 04 Jul 94 17:56:56
--------
EID:0827 1ce48f00
MSGID: 1:107/634 5d11f63d
Some senseless babbling from Chris Lee to Mike Ruskai on 07-03-94 18:15...
CL> although i don't make a religion out of science, i wouldn't say i was
CL> a skeptic, by the way, what the heck is gregarious?
You don't like Webster? :) A gregarious person is one who fits well into
group settings. Someone who hangs out with everyone. As opposed to a
loner.
´Mike Ruskai ³ FidoNet(1:107/634) ³ RGSNet(50:130/12) ³ OS/2Net(81:135/30)Ć
´{Team OS/2} ³ ITCnet(85:862/207) ³ TerraNet(87:908/100)
Ć
... Puritanism is the fear that someone, somewhere might be having fun.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 OS/2
--- RG 5-31 Exp/GE 1.02+
* Origin: The Licking Factory, OS/2 in NJ! (908)636-7245 (1:107/634)
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--------
From: The Mad Doctor
To: Ron Buttenham
Sub: RE: P&G Pres on Donahue??
Date: 27 Jun 94 17:07:00
--------
EID:f8ee 1cdb88e0
Via SLMAIL v3.5B (#1508)
>A while back, the minister of Anglican church that my mother attends
>handed out a brochure titled "Procter & Gamble". It makes the following
>claim... I will quote it verbatum.
>
>"The president of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1993. He announced that due to the openness of our society,
>he was coming out of the closet about his association with the CHURCH
>OF SATAN. He states that a large portion of the profits from Proctor
>& Gamble oriducts goes to support the SATAN CHURCH. When asked by
>Donahue if stating this on television would hurt his business, he
>replied "THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH CHRISTIANS IN UNITED STATES TO MAKE A
>DIFFERENCE.""
>
>The brochure then lists a number of Proctor & Gamble products and askes
>that the members of the church to boycott Proctor & Gamble products.
>
>Can anyone tell me if the alleged incident on Donahue actually took
>place. I can recall for many years stories about how the P&G logo
>was supposed to be Satanic. Is this just urban legend taking on new
>life?
>
>I was rather amused by my mother reacting to this as strongly as she
>did. I told her that I thought it was nonsense but I would attempt
>to determine the truth of it.
>
>Anybody out there know??
>
It is completely, totally, one hundred percent false. I called the ¨Donahue
sh
ow personally, and they have *never* had the president of ¨P&G on their
show a
t all. If you want to confirm the runor yourself, ¨their number is 212-664-650
1. The lady I talked to implied that they ¨have been flooded with calls
about
it by immediately realizing what I ¨was calling about.
-----
Yakko: "I can see into the future!"
Dr. Scratchansniff: "Vhen did zees begin?"
Yakko: "Next Monday!" (from Animaniacs!)
* SearchLight QWK Version 1.00 * #1508 #Unregistered!#
--- SLMAIL v3.5B (#1508)
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--------
From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Todd Rourke
Sub: National Day of Fear on M
Date: 04 Jul 94 16:41:11
--------
EID:e8de 1ce48520
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7212a630
But A.S. LaVey isn't an atheist...
He is a whacko idiosyncratic fundamentalist.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Thomas Arnold
Sub: Simpler Biology
Date: 04 Jul 94 16:49:11
--------
EID:00fd 1ce48620
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7212a631
"how can a person be an ordained minister and not believe in a deity..."
Well, he can become a Univeral Life Church minister like we are--with
the ecclesiastical validity of a bubble gum card.
Or he can be like Jim and Tammy and Ernest Angely or Marjoe Gortner or a
host of others.
If we stamped out tax breaks for The Religion Industry we'd be doing
them a favour because it would wring out many of the atheists who are
scamming the true believers, god bless them (excuse the expression).
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Ron Buttenham
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: OFF TO A BAD START & END
Date: 05 Jul 94 11:56:11
--------
EID:dad1 1ce55f00
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 72825919
CB>because it has nothing to do with separation issues or atheist info.
I disagree.
CB>it's Weekly World News bunk and doesn't belong here.
I related a personal experience not something out of a supermarket
tabloid and I resent you calling it bunk. I think that you should
learn some manners, you come across as an insenstive clod.
CB>RB> This was an attempt by the church to be politically active
CB>RB> and create a boycott of a business.
CB>
CB>see? you've just classified it and it meets neither of the above tests.
Puzzled look. I thought that it fit. Still do.
CB>you need to ask this in the Separation of Business and State Echo. this
CB>isn't it.
Your flippant throw away answer was likely meant to say separation of
Business and Church.
I find your attitude very disappointing.
CB>information, yes. old crack-pot reposts, no.
I am new to the echo. And once again resent the implication.
CB>RB> church in question if the allegations are indeed false? Could they
CB>RB> win in todays courts?
CB>
CB>that would best be asked in the LAW Echo.
A new puzzled look. You discuss separation issues but this doesn't include
the laws around the issues??
CB>the Guidelines were just reposted yesterday. by now, you must have seen
CB>them.
Must I have? Well I have not! I don't manage to read every message of
every
packet I down load, particularly when I get the first few packets with
800 messages each in them.
CB>the Guidelines are also off-topic except when addressed by the
CB>Moderator to a User.
CB>
CB>thanks.
CB>
CB>TTFN.
No TTFEver.
It has interested me over many years how some moderators moderate
and some power trip.
I don't need this first time in. And I guess you don't need me.
Given a chance I am sure that I would have had something to contribute.
I will drop this conference and not bother you any more.
Sorry that I wasted your time and inconvenienced you.
Ron
---
* KingQWK 1.00 * The will of God is the sanctuary of ignorance. - Spinoza
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: Teen athiests
Date: 04 Jul 94 17:41:24
--------
EID:505e 1ce48d20
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E188204
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 01 Jul 94, Chris Lee was quoted as saying:
CL> so you believe that one's conscious is one's god, or one's spirit,
we don't do god[s], here.
please take this thread to Netmail or a different Echo.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Shadow Warrior
Sub: Re: athiest or not?
Date: 04 Jul 94 23:35:09
--------
EID:b11a 1ce4bc60
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E18D4ED
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 30 Jun 94, Shadow Warrior was quoted as saying:
SW> If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that atheists and
SW> occultists are the same. I certainly hope I am reading this
i cannot imagine how you made such an extrapolation from my simple
statement.
SW> Those that you would call "occultists" (Thelemites, Druids, Wiccans)
SW> are definitely NOT atheistic in their beliefs.
what do you mean 'i would call'? i would call anyone who indulges in
religious 'mysteries' and occultist. that applies to all religions.
SW> This is definitely a "christian" nation. I can sympathize with
no, it is not. this is a secular nation. there may be a lot of
Christians in the country but the country, i.e., the government is
areligious.
SW> If the motto was equally offensive to you as it is to them I am
SW> sure some of the same people would be protesting it that are against
SW> the change now.
huh?
the 'motto' isn't 'offensive'. it's stupid. it doesn't belong there.
period.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Shadow Warrior
Sub: Re: Blue Laws
Date: 04 Jul 94 23:36:22
--------
EID:9918 1ce4bc80
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E18D536
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 30 Jun 94, Shadow Warrior was quoted as saying:
CB> we still have what we call 'blue laws' in many locales but i don't
CB> know of any force to be closed on Sundays.
SW> Yes it is still very much illegal to buy the EVIL ALCOHOL on the
SW> day of the lord in South Carolina. One of my favorite things to do
is it illegal for any types of stores to be open other than liquor
stores on Sunday around there?
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Shadow Warrior
Sub: Re: Moment of Silence
Date: 04 Jul 94 23:39:00
--------
EID:e5a0 1ce4bce0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E18D5D4
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 01 Jul 94, Shadow Warrior was quoted as saying:
SW> No one, not even an atheist :), has ever been hurt by a moment to
SW> relax and get ones mind refocused.
that's not the purpose of the so-called 'moment of silence'. these are
merely excuses to get prayer back into the school. they are unnecessary
since any student can pray to themself all day long if they want to do
so.
if they used the 'moment of silence' for meditation, the fundies would
be all over them for encouraging 'new age religion'.
schools should be teaching not momenting.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Don Kemerling
To: Crystal Burton
Sub: Branson Mo
Date: 04 Jul 94 11:39:11
--------
EID:198b 1ce45ce0
MSGID: 1:280/35@fidonet.org 728300e4
CB>Hi everybody from Branson, Missouri, the buckle of the bible belt,
CB>ARGHHHHHH! I am just so sick and tired of the supposed "Christians"
CB>around here spouting their dogmatic bullshit while they are, in fact
CB>practicing the worst examples of bigotry I have ever seen in my life.
Hiya Crystal. Branson is in the middle of a beautiful area, and has
great lakes and streams all around, but I'm sure you're right as far as
the people go. Recently a friend of mine, who is from the area and is
an atheist also was told by his grandfather not to come around any
longer as long as he wasn't prepared to go to church with him. That's
"family values," you know.
Added to the hypocracy and hatred is now the greed and gouging
associated with all the new country music halls there. I have a bumper
sticker, that I bought back in the 70's, which says I love the area's
lakes. Norfolk is my favorite, because I can avoid the traffic and the
hype. It's less crowded too, so I don't have to talk to the people as
much. But I'd talk to you. I haven't even been down there in years. I
don't think you could drag me into Branson with a team of Clydesdales
now. dk
---
ž DeLuxeż/386 1.25 #6312 ž Church-an institutionalized absurdity
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From: David Macdonald
To: Thomas Arnold
Sub: Simpler Biology
Date: 04 Jul 94 17:48:59
--------
EID:b1d0 1ce48e00
MSGID: 1:232/310 100bbe96
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Simpler Biology
Universal Life Church, 601 Third St., Modesto, CA 95351.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: David Macdonald
To: Chris Lee
Sub: You definition
Date: 04 Jul 94 17:49:00
--------
EID:649d 1ce48e20
MSGID: 1:232/310 10091e3c
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: You definition
The distinction between "strong" and "weak" atheism is widely recognized.
Strong is basically the vigorous assertion that there is no god; weak that
there is not sufficient evidence towarrent belief in the god hypothesis.
The
distinction may be subtle--and quite possibly people on this sub can offer
better distinctions than mine--but most of us find it a useful distinction
and meaningful for us.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: Jennie Hazen
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Objectivism
Date: 05 Jul 94 12:45:52
--------
EID:636e 1ce565a0
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86D6B78E
-> The cult of Ayn Rand, actually. There was a good article delving int
-> history of objectivism in the Cal Poly publication out of Altadena, C
-> called "Skeptic Magazine." That it's a religion is undisputed. That
-> positive or negative in scope, however, is -- as always -- left up to
-> individual to decide. It couldn't be taught in the Public School sys
-> would bet.
I thought it was a philosophy, not a religion--no supernatural
beings, some attempt at rationality. Why is it classified as
a religion?
Thanks,
Jennie
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: John Jancewicz
Sub: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 05 Jul 94 09:13:42
--------
EID:24b0 1ce549a0
PID: SX4.02B02P DOPEFISH
3 Jul 94, dixo John Jancewicz a Steve Quarrella:
JJ> I didn't see the other post. . . Also I was discouraged
JJ> from debating the subject by the moderator. I thought
JJ> seperation issues were "on" topic. I really don't
JJ> like the other echos such as HOLYSMOKE, or even
JJ> HOLYBIBLE. . .
At least in HOLYSMOKE you can speak your mind. :-/
JJ> I like your posts, but I can't think of a suitable echo
JJ> to discuss matters.
It's called HOLYSMOKE.
... Stay tuned for "Christmas Of The Daleks!"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.02B02P DOPEFISH
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: National Day of Fear on M
Date: 09 Jul 94 18:19:46
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 5f116dc6
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7212a630
PID: FM 2.02
> But A.S. LaVey isn't an atheist...
He doesn't believe in any deities.
> He is a whacko idiosyncratic fundamentalist.
<-heh-> That's even debatable. He doesn't try to pass hate laws.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: Objectivism
Date: 09 Jul 94 18:31:39
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 5f116dc7
REPLY: 1:2613/475 86D6B78E
PID: FM 2.02
fr> The cult of Ayn Rand, actually.
I should add that the term 'cult' doesn't have to be derogatory. Since
there
is a great deal of virtue in the philosophy, I see it as something positive.
fr> There was a good article delving [into the] history of
fr> objectivism in the Cal Poly publication out of Altadena,
fr> [California] called "Skeptic Magazine." That it's a
fr> religion is undisputed.
jh> I thought it was a philosophy, not a religion--no supernatural
jh> beings, some attempt at rationality. Why is it classified as
jh> a religion?
Religion doesn't require a deity in its ideological constructs, though.
And, yes, the rationality and objectivism are positive attributes worth
strivi
ng for, yet the movement degraded into a weak charasmatic cult. The political
and sexual infighting among the inner circle of the movement was of mild
inte
rest to read about yet helped to set the stage concerning how far intellectual
ism among the founders actually spread in practice.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Tom Breuer
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: God on money
Date: 07 Jul 94 23:50:00
--------
EID:5c24 1ce7be40
MSGID: 1:139/575 5f0025af
CB> TB> On the contrary, the recent lawsuit to get "In God We
CB> Trust" off
CB> TB> currency generated a lot of response in the form of
CB> columns, letters
CB> TB> to the editor, editorial cartoons, etc. That's because it's
CB> one of
CB> TB> those hot button issues that's easy to form an opinion
CB> about.
CB>
CB> not around here. which recent lawsuit are you referring to and
CB> where?
I think it was filed in Denver and it was, if I recall, about three weeks
ago.
It was actually a very brief AP story, but it touched off a lot of controvers
y around here (that is, Green Bay and Appleton, Wis.). Of course, this is
a ve
ry conservative area when it comes to these sorts of things. And by "a lot
of
controversy" I don't mean as much as when the Packers make a major personnel
m
ove or something, but it was given more than cursory attention, and the
public
ity that was generated was of the "atheists are trying to persecute the
rest o
f us" variety. All I'm saying is that going to a lot of effort to get the
mott
o off the money is just a little anal retentive, and makes atheists look
silly
. Methinks there are better things to spend our resources on.
---
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From: Chris Lee
To: Jon Persky
Sub: Teen athiests
Date: 07 Jul 94 12:15:00
--------
EID:9324 1ce761e0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:271/296.0 2e1d565b
JP> Basically, but where they and I draw the line is if one consciousness
JP> represents everybody or there is one for every person.
you mean, you think that there isn't one consciousness for everybody?
or do you think that one consciousness doesn't represent everybody?
JP> Generally, those who lose out in life are those who reject _their_
JP> "god", or inner personal spirit. If the god a person chooses to hold
JP> as their own is the one shaped by the Bible, so be it. But in
JP> classifying myself as athiest, I am simply rejecting the concepts of
JP> the Bible and monotheism. I reject their god. Not mine. I have a huge
JP> problem with the "One nation, under God" clause in the pledge of
JP> allegiance, because it implies their god - again, not mine, and not
JP> those of many others.
explain your god, what does your god do, and what is his capacity, tell
me
if he's eternal and if he promises you heaven and hell, i have trouble
grasping your concept of god, and your concept of atheism, how can one
reject _their_ "god" when it is only one's inner personal spirit? and what
do you mean by rejecting one's inner personal spirit?
JP> Granted, it's not the dictionary definition of god.. but it sort of
JP> applies. It's omnipotent within one's own being, not outside of it.
JP> To sum up, God is not a being, not a spirit, not a father, not a son.
JP> It is every person's system of beliefs and morals. And since
JP> everyone's system of beliefs and morals is different, every person's
JP> god is different as well.
so your idea of god is not god like anyone would think, but a symbolization
of one's thought? and how would you say that one's thought is omnipotent
within one's own being? please be more clear, i cannot quite understand
your concept of polytheism,
JP> It probably is best to use a different word.. but I have no idea what
JP> word that would be :)
yah, yah,
-PoeT '
... THIS IS A TAGLINE
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From: Crystal Burton
To: JIM COWAN
Sub: Re: What else?
Date: 08 Jul 94 12:01:00
--------
EID:9e6c 1ce86020
MSGID: 1:297/2 2E16A883
Thanks Jim, it's good to know I'm not alone in the darkness!!!
Hugs to ya.
Risa
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From: Jennie Hazen
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 08 Jul 94 11:05:46
--------
EID:a3f9 1ce858a0
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86D9B07D
-> i also just found about the "decisions" of the Internal Revenue Servi
-> in the '70s to deny tax exemptions to segregated Christian academies.
-> if this is true, it becomes another demonstration of the IRS as
-> enforcer of US national policy. and so much for the separation of
-> church and state.
Actually you could argue that this is an example of the separation of
church and state. The religious colleges were treated under laws
that applied to everyone, and not given special privileges. Of
course I think that churches should not be tax exempt anyway...
:)
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
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From: Langston Goldfinch
To: All
Sub: Querry
Date: 08 Jul 94 11:57:54
--------
EID:8353 1ce85f20
MSGID: 1:396/17 2e1d3f8c
PID: GED386 G0615 1048
Hello All!
What is the common use meaning of:
Conservative
Liberal
Radical
I know the old meaning, wondering how these terms a functionally defined.
Also, would you consider the meanings different when used by different folks?
Regards
Langston
---
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From: Chris Ferree
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Re: alt.atheism FAQs (1 o
Date: 02 Jul 94 12:07:00
--------
EID:201a 1ce260e0
MSGID: 1:231/285 86D6741E
TK> depending upon how long i have left to live on this echo,
TK> i'll repost it if there are others with the same problem.
TK> if you're the only one, then how 'bout i upload it as one
TK> complete doc to our local power bbs - Chattanooga On-Line,
TK> and you can freq it there? their # is 615/ 267-1562.
TK> look for atheism FAQ in their file/docs area.
I pasted all of the posts together and saved them to disk, so if Chris
"Dirty Rat" Baker kicks you out, I'll still be able to post it...
sometime... :]
amicaliment,
csf
... Condom - an apartment complex.
* [ tag ] *
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From: James Ho
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: We're Watching!
Date: 04 Jul 94 10:37:00
--------
EID:7646 1ce454a0
MSGID: 1:250/236 2D251F51
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E11C745
Once again, we see that Christopher Baker has chosen to discuss We're Watching
with James Ho. What has happened to our society?
CB> first, it's atheism if you're referring to one of the topics of this
CB> Echo. second, science is not a religion any more than atheism is a
CB> religion. if you want to conduct this particular line of conversation,
CB> please head over to HOLYSMOKE Echo where they debate religion. we
CB> don't do religions, here, except to the extent that any one may be
CB> intruding into government.
CB> here's the short form of the rules for your edification. the long form
CB> is published twice a month on the 1st and 15th.
Well, I'm fairly new here, so I guess I don't know all the rules. Second,
HOLYSMOKE is being deleted from our BBS, and in any case, my mail packets
are
too large (at 2400) to include it. In any case, I will try to curb my
instincts.
CB> specific off-topic subjects are: god[s], scriptures, personal attacks,
CB> and bashing for the sake of bashing. if it doesn't pertain to
CB> separation issues or atheist info, don't post it, here.
CB> off-topic posters receive 3 warnings in the Echo and/or Netmail. if
CB> they have not ceased to post off-topic traffic after those warnings,
CB> they are summarily disconnected from the Echo at all levels.
So I have had 1 warning? :-(
..James..
... A KGB keyboard has no key.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: James Ho
To: Jason Levine
Sub: We're Watching!
Date: 04 Jul 94 16:48:00
--------
EID:7b0d 1ce48600
MSGID: 1:250/236 2D251F73
REPLY: 1:2613/475 86D00C75
"Dammit James Ho, I'm a Doctor, not a We're Watching" said Jason Levine.
JH> Well, in a nutshell, an aethiest does not believe in a omnipotent being
k
n
JH>to some cultures as "God".
JL>
JL> Then, by your definition, Buddhists are athiests. Confucists are
JL> atheists. Hindu are atheists. Recheck your definition. Atheists don't
JL> have beliefs in gods, period. It is not limited to the single deity
JL> found in monotheistic religions, nor is it limited to "gods". It isn't
JL> limited to any kinds of religions, because it's NOT an ACTIVE
JL> disbelief! It's a LACK of belief. Big difference.
So you're hinging everything on the fact that I didn't use a PLURAL???
Okay,
if you want to be THAT way about it... Hmmm... I'm not sure about the above
religions (since I lived in the monocultural country of Australia for a
long
time), but from what I remember of my GRE classes, isn't Confuscinism a
form
of politics? Confucionism by itself isn't a belief in a God (or GODS, if
you
want to get technical), but mixed with religious beliefs, it can.
JH> HR> A school club? Hmm...I guess you'd have to make sure that the sponsor
JH> HR> wasn't a Fundamentalist, or something of the sort.
JH> That's what makes finding a staff sponsor so hard.
JL>
JL> No kidding...ever had a school official try to talk you out of it
JL> because it "goes against family values, and our school promotes family
JL> values"?
Not yet... but I'll probably get that speech when I start asking teachers...
:-)
JH> Well, who says that aethiesm isn't a "religion"? A religion simply means
a
JH>belief, a mode of thought. Science is a religion...
JL>
JL> Um....no. Again, recheck your definitions. Science, while some may
JL> pursue its calling avidly (even fanatically), is NOT a religion.
JL> ***
(I'm treading on dangerous ground here, since discussion of this sort, from
what I was told, belongs in HOLYSMOKE, but I won't be getting HOLYSMOKE
anymore)
Why not? A religion is a belief. Who says science isn't a belief?
Well, if you want to technical, then I could say that what comes OUT OF
science would be a form of religion.
..James..
... Some call it laziness - I call it deep thought ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Jeff Vineburg
To: Thomas Arnold
Sub: Simpler Biology
Date: 05 Jul 94 14:08:48
--------
EID:d6df 1ce57100
MSGID: 1:2614/705.0 2e19a1b0
TA>I was ordained several years ago by ULC, however a member
>of the family decided to "Lose" all my paperwork like my
>pocket card and certificate. Could you please post me the
>address so I may contact them again.
You naughty boy.
More likely, that horrendous noise emanating from what you call an
amplifier probably caused them to spontaneously combust.
But I too want to be ordained.
>yet not beleive in a deity of some form. I guess america
>is brainwashed into thinking "Minister=Christian" or
>something...
It has been known to happen.
* SLMR 2.1a * Where did you say that attention deficit seminar was?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: JIM COWAN
To: CRYSTAL BURTON
Sub: What else?
Date: 05 Jul 94 21:40:05
--------
EID:DB92 F4E5AD00
-> Hi everybody from Branson, Missouri, the buckle of the bible belt,
-> ARGHHHHHH! I am just so sick and tired of the supposed "Christians"
-> around here spouting their dogmatic bullshit while they are, in fact
-> practicing the worst examples of bigotry I have ever seen in my life.
Hey Crystal....here's a pat on the back from your neighbor over here in
Spfld MO. Good to hear from a small lance of light in the darkness of
religious superstition around here....
Jim
--- GOMail v1.2 [DEMO] 07-27-94
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Atheism & Social
Date: 05 Jul 94 13:10:32
--------
EID:ad65 1ce56940
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86D6CAF7
-> JH> people have ignored their own group they have been either kille
-> JH> punished
-> and then use an example of -bad- social unconventionalism ... i'm rem
-> -excellent- social unconventionalists like Socrates, Julius Caesar, J
-> Thomas Munzer, Joseph Priestly ('though not killed), the Quakers in t
-> american colonies, et al.
The only ones I recognize here are Socrates, Julius Caesar, Jesus,
and the Quakers. While we recognize that these people were, at
least from the history we know, good people; I think you are
still seeing the mechanisms I spoke of in these four examples
I know something (though little) about. Your question, IIRC,
was about why people obey social laws; these people did not
obey their social laws and were punished for it. I would
argue that the societies have mechanisms to protect themselves
from change of any sort (bad or good) and that the role of
the good unconventionalists is to be a catalyst for change;
that the punishments are generally so drastic because if
societies changed at the whim of any individual they would
crumble--therefore the process of change is regulated by
making it very difficult for individuals. I feel a tad
incoherent here--so my logic may not be faultless. Its a
new batch of ideas and I'm working my way through it.
-> JH> Like everyone else we are social animals. Also society has evo
-> JH> like an organism, and has feedback mechanisms that protect it f
-> JH> mavericks--jail, ostracism, and others. We obey the laws and s
-> JH> contructs because we are taught to do so by our parents. There
-> JH> many reasons.
->
-> some also disobey laws and social constructs because they feel/know a
-> way: Gautama Siddhartha, Joseph Smith (Mormons), Hunter S. Thompson .
-> i'm concerned that silencing outlaw voices - ridding society of
-> unconventionalism - is far worse than tolerating them.
Quite probably, which is why we prefer our country, which
does protect outlaw voices (the first admendment). Yet they
still pay a price in social terms if not legal ones.
Perhaps this is a way to make sure that only those who
really believe in their messages make it?
Bye for now,
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: RCC?
Date: 05 Jul 94 13:24:42
--------
EID:4c68 1ce56b00
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86D6CAF8
-> HM> weird name for a day to celebrate a guy getting tortured and
-> HM> murdered!) is not a national holiday.
->
-> Good Friday just became a national holiday in this country. chalk up
-> another intrusion by the RCC. [sigh]
Why for the RCC? I'd think that many christians of all stripes
would have voted for this holiday. By a national holiday do
you mean one taken by the federal government? Or just some
thing like National Day of Whatever, which can be declared by
almost anyone for almost anything? Sorry for all the
questions, but I missed the news in my papers.
Oh, something to celebrate--the Supreme court has ruled that
NY cannot set up a special school district for disabled Hasidic
Jews. It violates the separation of church and state.
Bye for now,
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
* Origin: The Black Cat Information Service 716-262-3680 (1:2613/475)
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Tom Breuer
Sub: God on money
Date: 05 Jul 94 13:30:28
--------
EID:cbce 1ce56bc0
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86D6CAF9
-> think one of the problems with the recent lawsuit is not so much that
-> atheists look "evil" in the eyes of our God-fearing, Christian nation
-> it makes them look silly and picky to a whole bunch of moderates who
-> a crap about what's on their money either and resent their tax dollar
-> spent to defend what they regard as a nuisance lawsuit. As I said, ba
Yet only yesterday I read an editorial about how we should have
a less warlike national anthem, which adduced the "In God We Trust"
and the Pledge wording as reasons why "America the Beautiful"
with its religious wording would be perfectly okay as the new
more peaceful anthem. If we let the separation wall crumble in
any way we lose another part of our nation.
Bye for now,
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
* Origin: The Black Cat Information Service 716-262-3680 (1:2613/475)
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Rick Chadderdon
Sub: Religious refusal of Med
Date: 05 Jul 94 13:45:37
--------
EID:9cd6 1ce56da0
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86D6CAFA
[For those following this thread: we are discussing at what age
someone would have the right to forgo medical treatment due to
their religious beliefs--started by questioning whether the
state has the right to insist on medical treatment for children
of those religious who refuse medical treatment.]
-> JH> How about a magic number of 16, with the ability to appeal to
-> JH> a judge for cases where a youngster would be mature for their
-> JH> age? Similar to becoming emancipated at a younger age than
-> JH> 18?
->
-> Not a bad idea. Gives you a starting point, but allows for a case by
-> review.
->
-> How would you suggest that judges be selected? I know of quite a few
-> judges that I would not trust with a decision of that magnitude.
->
-> What questions would you ask a child to see whether it really *unders
-> it was doing/saying?
Judge selection is a human process an inevitably produces mistakes
whether they are selected by appointment (eg. Clarence Thomas) or
by election. Perhaps election with a peer review process? I
dunno how to fix it.
As for how to tell whether a child is old enough? Perhaps some
psych tests for personal development coupled with questions about
what the effects of the treatment refusal will be?
Bye for now,
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
* Origin: The Black Cat Information Service 716-262-3680 (1:2613/475)
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Sean Mann
Sub: Re: Athiests Kill Too
Date: 05 Jul 94 18:51:41
--------
EID:8a89 1ce59660
MSGID: 1:232/310 100bcd48
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Re: Athiests Kill Too
Gee! You are perfectly organized, strong, and all that other neat stuff
too!
Heck, there is nothing that I can possibly say that could interest you.
I
am perpetually confused, in doubt, and just muddle through day to day.
I do
not even believe in telekinesis!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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--------
From: David Bushard
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: echo guidelines
Date: 05 Jul 94 10:25:42
--------
EID:1aa9 1ce55320
MSGID: 1:2245/101.0 2e198986
in this message i do not discuss the content of the echo guidelines, nor
do i
in any way challenge any part of them, nor do i challenge your application
of
those guidelines. i accept completely that the guidelines are what they
are,
and thay it is your priviledge to interpret and enforce them.
furthermore, in no way do i support the idea of "voting" on whether tom
kunesh
should post in this echo -- i have no opinion on that matter.
what i do assert is that i can no longer understand what the guidelines
mean.
i have read them repeatedly, and i have tried to understand their interpretat
ion through the examples of interpretation and moderation in this echo.
a few
months ago i thought i understood; now i am convinced that i do not. maybe
i
'll check back in a year or two, and see if i can understand it then. in
the
mean time, you have my best wishes for a successful endeavor.
david
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: The Swamp, River Falls WI 715.425.8865 & 612.436.5254 (1:2245/101)
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--------
From: Chris Lee
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: Teen athiests
Date: 05 Jul 94 02:11:00
--------
EID:c6bf 1ce51160
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:271/296.0 2e1a25fa
CB> In a message dated: 01 Jul 94, Chris Lee was quoted as saying:
CL> so you believe that one's conscious is one's god, or one's spirit,
CB> we don't do god[s], here.
surely you haven't read the message, or understood it, or could understand
it, or could understand anything, or you just like to "do" gods elsewhere,
or somfin like that,
-PoeT '
... Wave to your neighbor, Word to your mother.
--- GEcho 1.02+
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--------
From: Chris Lee
To: Mike Ruskai
Sub: Re: Introduction...
Date: 05 Jul 94 03:07:01
--------
EID:e680 1ce518e0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:271/296.0 2e1a2a23
MR> You don't like Webster? :) A gregarious person is one who fits well
MR> into group settings. Someone who hangs out with everyone. As opposed
MR> to a loner.
actually, i love webster! i read it everyday before going to bed,
i memorized quite a few pages already, starting with aardvark,
-PoeT '
... Wave to your neighbor, Word to your mother.
--- GEcho 1.02+
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--------
From: Chris Lee
To: tom kunesh
Sub: You definition
Date: 05 Jul 94 03:10:02
--------
EID:8907 1ce51940
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:271/296.0 2e1a2a24
tk> it's a pretty broad category with millions of people who all share the
tk> one name, but have quite different thoughts about its origin,
tk> purposes, and history.
yeah yeah,
tk> there are quite a few Americans who don't believe in President
tk> Clinton, but such disbelief does not mean that there is no President
tk> Clinton. more examples? -not- believing that the world was round, or
tk> that the earth circled the sun, did not and does not consequently also
tk> mean that the world is flat or that sun circled the earth. then again,
tk> belief -can- affect individuals' and groups' realities. but there is
no
tk> causal relationship.
by not believing in pres., you don't trust him to be competent, but by
not beleving god would mean that a person denies god's presence,
since god only exist to those who believe (who keep him alive with his
faith), that could mean that god doesn't exist to those who don't believe,
which is completely different matter from the roundness of the earth,
earth will be round regardless of our belief,
-PoeT '
... Wave to your neighbor, Word to your mother.
--- GEcho 1.02+
* Origin: * Hot "D" (1:271/296)
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--------
From: Bernard Wilmes
To: All
Sub: Coming laws
Date: 05 Jul 94 12:18:00
--------
EID:54e9 1ce56240
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:114/264.0 2e1a3af9
* Originally By: Matt Giwer
* Originally To: All
* Originally Re: Coming laws
* Original Area: Civil Liberties
* Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12
@MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 718b7bbd
*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: GUNTALK
*********** Conf: 0002 - MEMBER
-!---------------------------------------------------------------------
Afraid of an Arsenal
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <7/3>
This is a bit ahead of schedule. I find it more fun to
respond to things before they happen rather than after they
happen. It is good to find my chosen opposition to be so
predictably stupid.
The subject is arsenals and the laws that will be proposed
to regulate arsenals. It is clear to any rational person that a
person may own a million guns but that he can only use one gun at
a time. Any rational person will conclude that a dangerous
person will buy one gun and lots of ammunition for it rather than
a second gun.
Unfortunately the legislative process is not rational.
There will soon be a proposed regulation to no constructive
purpose regarding the number of guns a person can own. And this
will NEVER, EVER address in the public debate by the talking
heads on word as to the absolutely insane concept that a person
can use more than one gun at a time.
The above is guaranteed. I have gazed into my crystal
monitor and I have seen it. Praise me, I am a prophet. But if
you insist I be honest I will have to admit I have read it in the
plans for Brady II. I hate to be honest it ruins my reputation.
We know this irrational garbage is going to be proposed as
law and that its irrationality will never be debated in public.
We know that more than ten guns (obviously if you have more guns
than fingers you are dangerous) is a public menace and must be
regulated or stamped out. The magic number is ten. Only an
idiot can not count higher than his fingers.
So let us presume this law passes and given the current
climate it will pass. Conspiracy to possess more than ten weapons
will be illegal and the BATF in its infinite wisdom will become
the arbiters of your intentions. It is clearly established in
law that the BATF can attack upon suspicion that you are planning
to convert semi to full automatic, to add pistol grips to rifles
or that you are capable of threading a barrel. There is no
question you can be attacked on suspicion you plan to have more
than ten weapons.
I have said "Wake up, America" far too often and that is not
my intention. The people reading what I write know that already.
I am only pointing out what is going to happen. Of course I can
not predict the future. But I have this uncanny knack of getting
the future right more often than not.
I do not ask you to believe me. I only ask you to remember
and judge for yourself. If you ask for confirmation in the
future I will do my best to keep copies of what I have written
that will survive disk crashes so that I can repost upon request.
Now that that is clear lets take the next step. Only
non-criminals will be required to have a license to own a
handgun. This takes no crystal CRT to predict but it will
happen. The "useful dupe" from the NRA will be cited as the
justification for the government to define the protected hunting
weapons and to ban all others. In the Feinstein Amendment we
clearly have the government pretending to the ability to define
legal guns that are exempted. It is a simple step to say those
are the only permitted.
In one swell foop we have lost all handguns and most rifles.
That or some minor variation of it will happen. After all, no
one needs a semiauto for hunting, do they? Don't tell me about
it, tell your Congressrat.
Congress may have the noblest of intentions. The BATF has
the most murderous of intentions. Do not forget, Congress can
not control the BATF. The Executive Branch has admitted it can
not control the BATF. The uncontrollable BATF will be coming
after you.
This is not a prediction. This is a fact.
* * * * *
Further distribution is encouraged by the author.
1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-547
-!-
* RM 1.3 01261 * All right, Koresh, make my day. -- Reno
-!- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
! Origin: MercOpus * 10 Lines/12 GB/1500 Confs * 813-321-0734 (1:3603/20)
@PATH: 3603/10 20 3615/50 396/1 114/124 89 136
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: The Sleep Robber BBS Mesa, AZ (602)985-8450 (1:114/264)
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--------
From: Jason Levine
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: alt.atheism FAQs (1 of 8)
Date: 03 Jul 94 01:12:00
--------
EID:60c3 1ce30980
CJH> JL> FIDO stuff is truncated to 200 lines (in our area, at least), and
you
r
CJH> JL> posts got seriously bobbited.
CJH> JL> ž OLX 2.1 TD ž It's okay to call someone stupid; just don't prove
it
.
CJH>This is your problem. OLX is limited to 200 lines. Use a real reader,
or
CJH>become a point.
My dear C.J., if that were the only reason I didn't get it, I would've
said so (along the lines of "Those of us with old OLRs would
appreciate..."). The FIDONET HUBS around here are the ones who BOBBIT
the stuff down to 200-250 lines. Otherwise I would've simply signed onto
the BBS, engaged Text Capture, and read through the messages manually.
***
ž OLX 2.1 TD ž Don't be sexist - chicks hate that.
--- TriToss (tm) 1.01 - (Unregistered)
* Origin: Barter Town BBS*Pinellas Park, FL*(813)-545-1492 (1:3603/280)
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--------
From: Mike Ruskai
To: Rick Chadderdon
Sub: re: Introduction...
Date: 06 Jul 94 01:11:24
--------
EID:2c2f 1ce60960
MSGID: 1:107/634 5e01337e
Some senseless babbling from Rick Chadderdon to Mike Ruskai on 07-05-94
17:03
MR> To eat, something has to die. I don't mind eating a dead pig or cow,
I
MR> just don't like how they are treated while alive. Same with egg chickens
MR> Most vegetarians I know are so because of the treatment of the animals,
MR> not because it is healthier (it isn't), or they don't like eating anythin
MR> that was killed (at which point I would point out that plants are alive,
MR> too).
RC> Yeah, but it's a lot harder to anthropomorphize a plant. :)
Depends on the plant :) I am not a vegetarian myself, because it is not
within my ability at this moment to commit to such a way of life.
MR> So, if I am ever rich, I'll start a network of farms that treat the
MR> animals right before killing them right (not hanging them upside down
MR> while slitting their throats and then beginning to skin them with them
MR> still possibly being alive).
RC> Good idea.
RC> Actually, I would say that my basic belief structure is:
RC> No human behavior is unacceptable unless said behavior unnecessarily
RC> harms or attempts to control another being incapable of informed
RC> consent.
That's just about the same as my little philosophy.
RC> Pretty liberal, I know. :)
Hardly compared to some things in my head :)
´Mike Ruskai ³ FidoNet(1:107/634) ³ RGSNet(50:130/12) ³ OS/2Net(81:135/30)Ć
´{Team OS/2} ³ ITCnet(85:862/207) ³ TerraNet(87:908/100)
Ć
... Captain, I sense a million minds staring at my cleavage.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 OS/2
--- RG 5-31 Exp/GE 1.02+
* Origin: The Licking Factory, OS/2 in NJ! (908)636-7245 (1:107/634)
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--------
From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Greg Mcdaniel
Sub: Atheism - the big lie?
Date: 06 Jul 94 20:39:11
--------
EID:34ea 1ce6a4e0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 73151282
The Internet translation of the Bible is somewhat different. In
Holysmoke and the like god created the heavens and the earth (and cancer
and murdered his only son).
Here there is no god. This is the atheism echo.
You must have a deep spiritual longing to be an atheist, or you wouldn't
have checked in here. Congratulations.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
* Origin: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario (1:229/15)
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--------
From: Jon Persky
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Teen athiests
Date: 06 Jul 94 00:32:18
--------
EID:e8b7 1ce60400
MSGID: 1:141/256.0 2e1a33d2
REPLY: 1:271/296.0 2e15e038
JP> Basically, I accept a concept of "god", but not as any theists would
JP> see it. "God" I believe, is the thought processes of each person's
JP> mind.
CL> are you suggesting that "god" you believe is one's consciousness,
Basically, but where they and I draw the line is if one consciousness represen
ts everybody or there is one for every person.
JP> Generally, those who lose out in life are those who reject _their_
JP> "god", or inner personal spirit. If the god a person chooses to hold
JP> as their own is the one shaped by the Bible, so be it. But in
JP> classifying myself as athiest, I am simply rejecting the concepts of
JP> the Bible and monotheism. I reject their god. Not mine. I have a huge
JP> problem with the "One nation, under God" clause in the pledge of
JP> allegiance, because it implies their god - again, not mine, and not
JP> those of many others.
CL> but your god, it isn't any omnipotent being, is it not? then it would
no
t
CL> be considered as "god" in any definition we know, so it must not be
"god
"
CL> but something else,
Granted, it's not the dictionary definition of god.. but it sort of applies.
I
t's omnipotent within one's own being, not outside of it.
JP> To sum up, God is not a being, not a spirit, not a father, not a son.
JP> It is every person's system of beliefs and morals. And since
JP> everyone's system of beliefs and morals is different, every person's
JP> god is different as well.
CL> so you believe that one's conscious is one's god, or one's spirit,
CL> or do you? anyways, thats what i think you have got
CL> mixed up on, you cannot
CL> regard you/your consciousness as "god", and each
CL> person's "god", since your
CL> consciousness is finite, and have not done any miracles,
It probably is best to use a different word.. but I have no idea what word
tha
t would be :)
Jon :)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: PlUtOnIuM PlAyGrOuNd - 203-454-2286 - Weston, CT (1:141/256)
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851
--------
From: Jon Persky
To: James Ho
Sub: Teen athiests
Date: 06 Jul 94 00:35:34
--------
EID:de45 1ce60460
MSGID: 1:141/256.0 2e1a3496
REPLY: 1:250/236 2D24F2C1
JH> Hmmm... I was an Anglican for about 3 years before
JH> rejecting the religion. I
JH> cannot believe in an omnipotent/supreme being
JH> controlling our lives. I have
JH> also thought long and hard about this.
JP> Me too.
JH> What, about you being Anglican? :-)
No, about thinking about it :) I'm Jewish by heritage.
Jon :)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: PlUtOnIuM PlAyGrOuNd - 203-454-2286 - Weston, CT (1:141/256)
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851
--------
From: Jon Persky
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: Teen athiests
Date: 06 Jul 94 00:36:34
--------
EID:c585 1ce60480
MSGID: 1:141/256.0 2e1a34d2
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E15F810
CB> In a message dated: 29 Jun 94, Jon Persky was quoted as saying:
JP> beliefs and morals is different, every person's god is different
JP> as well.
CB> we don't do god[s], here.
I sorta expected that.. :) I picked the wrong word, anyways. Should have
said
something like spirit or self-consciousness instead of god, because I didn't
i
ntend it to mean the type of god you guys don't "do" here..
Jon :)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: PlUtOnIuM PlAyGrOuNd - 203-454-2286 - Weston, CT (1:141/256)
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851
--------
From: John Jancewicz
To: tom kunesh
Sub: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 04 Jul 94 01:41:00
--------
EID:91b8 1ce40d20
MSGID: 1:362/970.2 2e1768f3
REPLY: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3C9C1D
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
03 Jul 94 16:47, tom kunesh wrote to John Jancewicz:
tk> from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JJ>> Thanks for the good quotes.
JJ>>
JJ>> Talk the moderator into allowing the discussion and I'm
JJ>> game. :)
tk> boy, you sound familiar. haven't i met you somewhere before?
SHhhhh. . . :)
Aren't you the trouble maker for this echo. :)
Are we on topic?
--- GoldED/P32 2.42.G1219
* Origin: All the Cops Criminals, All the Sinners Saints (1:362/970.2)
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: No Beliefs
Date: 04 Jul 94 13:19:37
--------
EID:5069 1ce46a60
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3DBCE9
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JH> In a msg of Friday June 24 1994, Matthew Johnson said all this to
JH> Fredric Rice:
MJ> If there is no active disbelief then why does this message area exist.
MJ> Surely if the cause is as great as it is, it requires activity.
JH> This area exists to discuss matters of separation of church and state,
JH> as provided for in the first ammendment of the US Constitution and
JH> also in Para 116 of the Australian Constitution. It has nothing to
do
JH> with belief or disbelief other than making sure that they don't
JH> interfere with the mechanisms of government.
really?!
are you suggesting that the word "atheist" -
the very name of this Fido echo,
has "nothing to do with belief or disbelief"?!
... how curious ...
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: Simpler Biology
Date: 04 Jul 94 13:21:50
--------
EID:c2c1 1ce46aa0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3DBD6E
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
MJ> I read about a satanic cult that daily comits sexual acts with the
CB> in a 700 Club tract?
CB> there is no evidence of any such thing after years of Federal law
CB> enforcement investigation.
CB> i doubt if there is any down there either.
CB> in any case, this has nothing to do with separation of state and
CB> church or atheist info.
CB> you might want to wander over to HOLYSMOKE where this topic can be
CB> debunked in detail.
an -excellent- place for debunking urban legends like that is
Usenet's alt.folklore.urban area.
and it says basically what you wrote in your 2nd & 3rd lines.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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From: tom kunesh
To: John Jancewicz
Sub: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 04 Jul 94 13:28:54
--------
EID:94c0 1ce46b80
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3DBF16
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JJ> 03 Jul 94 16:47, tom kunesh wrote to John Jancewicz:
JJ> Thanks for the good quotes.
JJ> Talk the moderator into allowing the discussion and I'm game. :)
tk> boy, you sound familiar. haven't i met you somewhere before?
JJ> SHhhhh. . . :)
got it. sorry. i'm ssssshhhhhhhing ...
JJ> Aren't you the trouble maker for this echo. :)
why? is there pay in it?
JJ> Are we on topic?
ooooops. i was gonna write "never" but that might be taken by the Powers
That
BE as a straight line and not as a tongue-in-cheek comment on the Regulatory
S
ystem in effect around here.
JJ> Origin: All the Cops Criminals, All the Sinners Saints
an adaptation maybe? All the Christians Criminals, All the Atheists Saints
- c
atchy, neh?
y'know, there -was- a time when Christians were all three - Criminals, Atheist
s, -and- Saints, don'tcha?
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Jason Levine
Sub: satanism & the big a
Date: 05 Jul 94 16:23:00
--------
EID:0b8c 1ce582e0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3F3964
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
TK> "supernatural" ... hmmmmmmmmm ... there's a lot of mystery in this
TK> world - a lot of stuff i can't explain. i don't know about "psi"
TK> energy. i don't know about "past lives." i -do- believe that anything
TK> and everything that happens in this universe is natural, and thus deny
TK> anything "super"natural. and i would expect that many other atheists
TK> feel that same way, especially i the scientific community. so ... you
TK> can probably put me down as someone who believes that some things you
TK> call "super"natural are actually natural. now ... where does that get
TK> us? ;)
JL> I wouldn't put you down for it. If I were to someday see absolute
JL> proof that psi existed, I'd accept it, but wouldn't believe that any
JL> godly force was in effect. I would believe that it was a natural power
JL> of the human mind (with ~90% unused space, I don't think that that's
JL> an unrealistic belief). I never mentioned stuff like psi. By
JL> "supernatural", I mean "by a force which cannot be explained by any
JL> rational (scientific, if you will) laws". Like gods.
i think it was Arthur C. Clarke who said,
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
given that we do not know all physical (eg, chemistry, biology, quantum
mechan
ics) or mental (mathematics, economic, psychological, psi) laws -
rational or otherwise, much of the universe (i hope) is still left left
to be explored and explained. ... still, psi or reincarnation -are-, as
you
define, 'supernatural', "forces which cannot be explained by any [-current-]
r
ational laws."
TK> i think that there are many atheists who are thus consumed with
TK> theism, and need to bash it for a while - maybe a long time - maybe
TK> they don't ever come out of it - before they can let it go. i see no
TK> problem with a person saying "fuck god" "damn god" etc. for as long
TK> they want to in order to prove to themselves that they won't be killed
TK> or something bad happen or anything because of it. call it "beginning
TK> atheism f a theistic startingpoint". immature - but then, haven't we
TK> all been that way
JL> True, many atheists start off that way (FTR, I didn't), but I
JL> readily admit that I consider them "less than atheists" (and I REALLY
JL> don't mean that to sound as self-important as it probably does) until
JL> they "grow out of it" (ditto).
moving away from or out of a god-based family and culture can be a traumatic
e
xperience for a person who lived as or considered him/herself a devout believe
r. ftr, i felt i had to become pretty adept at biblical history and its
errors
in order to be able to justify my disbelief to family and friends. and even
w
hen i was externally sure, i still needed to justify to -myself- that i
was on
the right road, and publically took on soap-box preachers on the university
m
all.
having been somewhat close, i guess i just wanna make sure that atheism's
door
is open to all - even the immature, and that there be an understanding of
dev
elopment within one's own belief system.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: David Macdonald
Sub: You definition
Date: 05 Jul 94 22:39:39
--------
EID:5e95 1ce5b4e0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3F91AB
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
DM> The distinction between "strong" and "weak" atheism is widely
DM> recognized. Strong is basically the vigorous assertion that there is
DM> no god; weak that there is not sufficient evidence towarrent belief
in
DM> the god hypothesis. The distinction may be subtle--and quite possibly
DM> people on this sub can offer better distinctions than mine--but most
DM> of us find it a useful distinction and meaningful for us.
the difference isn't subtle enought to be lost on me ,
so i call myself the 'weak' atheist variety.
problem is, i don't like the way it sounds - like i'm the pansy atheist
compared to the 'strong' macho atheist.
then again, i guess i can learn how to deal with that word ...
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: John Jancewicz
To: tom kunesh
Sub: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 06 Jul 94 00:25:00
--------
EID:a68d 1ce60320
MSGID: 1:362/970.2 2e19fa3c
REPLY: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3DBF16
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
04 Jul 94 13:28, tom kunesh wrote to John Jancewicz:
tk>> boy, you sound familiar. haven't i met you somewhere
tk>> before?
JJ>> SHhhhh. . . :)
tk> got it. sorry. i'm ssssshhhhhhhing ...
Too late now. :)
JJ>> Aren't you the trouble maker for this echo. :)
tk> why? is there pay in it?
No.
JJ>> Are we on topic?
tk> ooooops. i was gonna write "never" but that might be taken by the
tk> Powers That BE as a straight line and not as a tongue-in-cheek
tk> comment on the Regulatory System in effect around here.
:)
JJ>> Origin: All the Cops Criminals, All the Sinners Saints
tk> an adaptation maybe? All the Christians Criminals, All the
tk> Atheists Saints - catchy, neh?
Yeah. :) Maybe the Stones oughta use it as well. :)
I'll use it. :)
tk> y'know, there -was- a time when Christians were all three -
tk> Criminals, Atheists, -and- Saints, don'tcha?
Yup. :)
--- GoldED/P32 2.42.G1219
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Chris Ferree
Sub: Re: alt.atheism FAQs (1 o
Date: 06 Jul 94 19:12:17
--------
EID:e298 1ce69980
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA40B291
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
TK> i'll repost it if there are others with the same problem. ...
CF> ... amicaliment,
beaucoup merci.
actually, i file-attached the complete text to my boss (1:362/122),
from which Chris Baker said that he'd freq it and thereby make it
available to one and all, too.
you might check to see if he has it yet.
bon chance a nous.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 06 Jul 94 19:21:36
--------
EID:abcb 1ce69aa0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA40B4C0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
JL> Waitasec...I've heard stuff like "Scientology is a government-
JL> recognized religion" several times. Doesn't it mean anything for the
JL> govt to recognize you?
CB> that was an I.R.S. case where Scientology had to prove they met the
CB> tests for religious exemption from taxation under I.R.S. standards.
CB> the I.R.S. is not the government. it is merely a taxing tool.
tk> the IRS is not the -entire- government, but it is an -integral part-
tk> of the U.S.A. government every bit as much as the U.S. Treasury or
tk> U.S. Army. standards for tax exemption based on religious grounds are
tk> discussed and passed by the U.S. government. in effect, religious tax
tk> exemption is based on standards approved by the U.S. government.
i also just found about the "decisions" of the Internal Revenue Service
in the '70s to deny tax exemptions to segregated Christian academies.
if this is true, it becomes another demonstration of the IRS as
enforcer of US national policy. and so much for the separation of
church and state.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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From: Jeff Vineburg
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: nonsense again - you sai
Date: 06 Jul 94 10:41:42
--------
EID:7707 1ce65520
MSGID: 1:2614/705.0 2e1ac2a6
TK>personally, i like moments of silence. in fact, i'd prefer
>whole -minutes- and even an hour of silence. silence is non-
>denominational and may even help clear people's heads to
Let's get real.
This is no more than an attempt to get religion's toes into the schools.
I hear no great cry from the non-religious for a moment of silence.
Like some sage here said.... how about a moment of SCIENCE?
These kids can barely read and write, and these people are worried about
silence?
>help them think. silence is no more "holy" than noise, and
>i think it would be great if -more- atheists would
>themselves promote "minutes of silence".
I still think saying Hail Satan a few times a day would cure this.
Of course if the atheists would promote it, perhaps the religious would
think twice! (or is this what you meant?)
* SLMR 2.1a * Busloads full of burning schoolchildren
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Jeff Vineburg
To: Greg Mcdaniel
Sub: the love of God
Date: 06 Jul 94 10:43:44
--------
EID:b07d 1ce65560
MSGID: 1:2614/705.0 2e1ac320
> For GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that
>whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
What does this have to do with the topic at hand?
Have you nothing better to say than an automatic quoting from a book of
fiction?
I'll leave you to the divine wisdom of the moderator.
* SLMR 2.1a * What if the pro-lifers blockaded a federal court?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Jeff Vineburg
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: the Echo god
Date: 06 Jul 94 12:12:32
--------
EID:084e 1ce66180
MSGID: 1:2614/705.0 2e1ad7f0
>atheism is -not- what you say it is, regardless of your
>position of authority here. but ... since you're God here,
>you can, of course, make sure that everybody plays -your-
>way.
We don't DO gods here.
* SLMR 2.1a * Ultimate Jewish dilemma: free ham
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Shadow Warrior
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: athiest or not?
Date: 06 Jul 94 10:35:00
--------
EID:3a29 1ce65460
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rHu
CB> SW> This is definitely a "christian" nation. I can sympathize with
CB> no, it is not. this is a secular nation. there may be a lot of
CB> Christians in the country but the country, i.e., the government is
CB> areligious.
Although you would like to believe it is not a "christian" nation, it most¨
ce
rtainly is. This government has never been, though it claims to be,¨ areligio
us.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against the American Government. In fact,
I am¨
sworn to defend it.
\\\\\Chuk Chapman
--- FMail 0.96ā
* Origin: The Forbidden Zone, GA 912-369-4912 (1:3659/12)
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--------
From: Shadow Warrior
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Blue Laws
Date: 06 Jul 94 10:38:01
--------
EID:32fb 1ce654c0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rHu
CB> is it illegal for any types of stores to be open other than liquor
CB> stores on Sunday around there?
I am currently not resideing in South Carolina. I am not sure about anymore,¨
but it used to be illegal to anything that wsn't a neccesity on Sunday (ie.¨
pantyhose et al.)
\\\\\Chuk Chapman
--- FMail 0.96ā
* Origin: The Forbidden Zone, GA 912-369-4912 (1:3659/12)
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--------
From: Shadow Warrior
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Moment of Silence
Date: 06 Jul 94 10:41:02
--------
EID:72f4 1ce65520
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rHu
CB> if they used the 'moment of silence' for meditation, the fundies would
CB> be all over them for encouraging 'new age religion'.
Then the Fundies would be wrong in the respect that even christianity supports
¨ meditiation in its own form. Meditation, in one form or another, is a¨
gene
rally common link between many world religions.
\\\\\Chuk Chapman
--- FMail 0.96ā
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From: Todd Rourke
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: National Day of Fear on M
Date: 06 Jul 94 20:52:56
--------
EID:6232 1ce6a680
MSGID: 1:323/110 2e1b8540
PID: TeleMail 1.51
HM> But A.S. LaVey isn't an atheist...
HM> He is a whacko idiosyncratic fundamentalist.
He isn't... many 'satanists', however, are.
-TR
... I myself, here on Earth, might be God. - Heine
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Jason Levine
Sub: Early atheism?
Date: 06 Jul 94 08:58:10
--------
EID:ee85 1ce64740
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86D7806D
-> TK>i see no problem with a person saying "fuck god" "damn god" etc. f
-> TK>they want to in order to prove to themselves that they won't be ki
-> TK>something bad happen or anything because of it. call it "beginning
-> TK>a theistic startingpoint". immature - but then, haven't we all bee
->
-> True, many atheists start off that way (FTR, I didn't), but I
-> readily admit that I consider them "less than atheists" (and I REALLY
-> don't mean that to sound as self-important as it probably does) until
-> they "grow out of it" (ditto).
I never did either, and my parents were religious. They never
condemned my beliefs or reason so maybe I didn't need to rebel like
this where others might?
Bye for now,
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Greg Mcdaniel
Sub: Re: the love of God
Date: 06 Jul 94 18:56:48
--------
EID:88aa 1ce69700
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1B36B0
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 03 Jul 94, Greg Mcdaniel was quoted as saying:
we don't do god[s], here.
find yourself a bible Echo or switch over to HOLYSMOKE Echo.
this area is for separation of state and church and atheist information
posts.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Re: Re: alt.atheism FAQs (1 of 8)
Date: 06 Jul 94 18:59:01
--------
EID:ff36 1ce69760
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1B3735
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 30 Jun 94, Tom Kunesh was quoted as saying:
TK> good deal. i'm uploading it - ATHEISM.FAQ - to 1:362/122 with this
TK> session, and will repost your msg to /122 for him to make it
TK> freqable.
let me know when he has it available and i will also post it on this
system.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: John Jancewicz
Sub: Re: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 06 Jul 94 19:01:15
--------
EID:9b19 1ce69820
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1B37BB
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 01 Jul 94, John Jancewicz was quoted as saying:
CB> Constitution means. that's as close to 'gospel' as you're going
CB> to get in 'interpretation' of the document.
JJ> So if regan/bush stacked the court as they planned,
JJ> thier word would be gospel to you?
please note i said no such thing above. i said it was as close as
'gospel' as YOU'RE going to get. [grin]
JJ> Are you paid for your referals to Holysmoke?
i'd certainly be rich by now. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Re: the Echo god
Date: 06 Jul 94 19:10:47
--------
EID:546b 1ce69940
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1B39F7
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 02 Jul 94, Tom Kunesh was quoted as saying:
CB> your digressions do nothing for the Echo but amplify the noise
TK> i'd like to test that opinion here by public vote.
TK> personally, i doubt that you'd be sustained.
the Echo Guidelines are off-topic. they are posted and they stand.
anyone who can't live with that is invited to start their own Echo and
make up their own Guidelines. this subject is closed.
CB> defined in terms of the Echo. take it or leave it.
TK> a false binary choice. i both reject its truth -and- stay here.
reject all you like. stay and comply. simple, really.
CB> no. the choice is yours as it has been since the first time i
CB> instructed you to take your Marx and Hegel arguments elsewhere. it's
CB> up to you completely whether you stay or leave. if, as you say, it
CB> is of 'no import' to you, then check out.
TK> no. the choice to banish me or not banish me is -yours-. i will
you keep trying to shift the onus from your own actions. the Guidelines
are clear. comply or depart. it's up to you.
TK> ... but we atheists are not to mention them?! ha!!
mentioning is one thing. carrying on philosophical debates about them is
off-topic and will not be permitted.
CB> it's your choice. if you don't like the subject matter here,
TK> i -love- the subject matter here ... atheism and being a_theist.
TK> i disagree with your narrow interpretation of it (separation of
TK> church & state issues) and your arbitrary application of the
TK> so-called rules.
that is the purpose of this Echo. it exists for no other reasons. you
may go start one of your own that meets your requirements for subject
matter and advertise it here.
TK> if push comes to shove, i may.
more power to you.
TK> nice of you to point out the mortality rate of such ventures. ;)
TK> then again, Usenet's alt.atheism is probably more my inclination.
enjoy.
CB> if you stay, stay on-topic as defined in the Guidelines.
CB> it's completely up to you.
TK> no, Chris, it's not -completely- up to me.
yep. and let this be the last exchange in the Echo about it. get
on-topic or go.
TK> -you- have made the sacred Guidelines. you can -change- the sacred
TK> Guidelines. you interpret the Guidelines. and you decide the
TK> application of the Guidelines.
please note that in these same Guidelines, the Guidelines are off-topic
and for just this reason.
TK> example of the power of god. and heck, i'm just a little atheist
TK> who doesn't believe in that kind of god-like power. ;)
you will see it in action if you continue this thread. [grin]
TK> and atheists, and since i believe your rules to be self-serving and
TK> overly restrictive on a national Fido echo, i will ignore them.
and when you do so again, your link to this Echo will then be removed
permanently. that will be your choice.
TK> i now rest my defense.
TK> now the decision goes to you.
post off-topic and be delinked.
TK> it's completely up to you to decide whether i stay
TK> or am no longer allowed here.
your choice will be evident in your next group of msgs, if any.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Re: the Echo god
Date: 06 Jul 94 19:12:13
--------
EID:546b 1ce69980
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1B3A4D
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 02 Jul 94, Tom Kunesh was quoted as saying:
TK> i will most assuredly abide by the outcome of such a referendum.
you will 'most assuredly abide' by your own actions and get yourself
delinked if you keep this up.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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From: Christopher Baker
To: James Ho
Sub: Re: Re: We're Watching!
Date: 06 Jul 94 19:16:26
--------
EID:817a 1ce69a00
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1B3B4A
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 04 Jul 94, James Ho was quoted as saying:
JH> So I have had 1 warning? :-(
not yet. let's keep it that way, okay? [grin]
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: James Ho
Sub: Re: We're Watching!
Date: 06 Jul 94 19:18:30
--------
EID:817a 1ce69a40
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1B3BC6
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 04 Jul 94, James Ho was quoted as saying:
JH> (I'm treading on dangerous ground here, since discussion of this
JH> sort, from what I was told, belongs in HOLYSMOKE, but I won't be
JH> getting HOLYSMOKE anymore)
this Echo will not be your substitute. you've acknowledged the
Guidelines. now, stop violating them.
JH> Why not? A religion is a belief. Who says science isn't a belief?
science is a methodology not a belief.
please take this thread elsewhere.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Re: Re: Athiests Kill Too
Date: 06 Jul 94 21:36:40
--------
EID:a147 1ce6ac80
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1B5C28
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 05 Jul 94, David Macdonald was quoted as saying:
DM> Gee! You are perfectly organized, strong, and all that other neat
please take your personal debate with Mann to Netmail.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: David Rice
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Your definition
Date: 07 Jul 94 10:22:26
--------
EID:4dc2 1ce752c0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
CB> in this Echo, an atheist is one who is free of religion.
Goddess, if only that were true!
An atheist is one who wishes those who are not free of religion
would leave alone those who are.
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From: David Rice
To: Ian Hebert
Sub: Appendix
Date: 07 Jul 94 10:23:02
--------
EID:70cd 1ce752e0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
>DR> If it had been Satanists praying to Satan to heal the
>DR> child, imagine the public anger.
IH> These goat-damned fundies just kill me!
I'll post specifics in an appropreate echo, such as HOLYSMOKE,
if you yell for it.
IH> [cuts] FWIW, we've had cases like the Colorado incident up
IH> here as well. The parents in each case (both of em) got
IH> jail time.
Thank no god for small miracles!
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From: Rick Chadderdon
To: Mike Ruskai
Sub: re: Introduction...
Date: 07 Jul 94 15:03:28
--------
EID:8981 1ce77860
MSGID: 1:209/254.7@FidoNet 41cef0dc
REPLY: 1:107/634 5e01337e
At 1:11:24 on July 6 '94, Mike Ruskai said to me:
MR> Some senseless babbling from Rick Chadderdon to Mike Ruskai on 07-05-94
MR> 17:03
MR>
MR> MR> To eat, something has to die. I don't mind eating a dead pig or
cow
,
MR> MR> I just don't like how they are treated while alive. Same with
egg
MR> MR> chickens Most vegetarians I know are so because of the treatment
of
MR> MR> the animals, not because it is healthier (it isn't), or they don't
MR> MR> like eating anythin that was killed (at which point I would point
ou
t
MR> MR> that plants are alive, too).
MR>
MR> RC> Yeah, but it's a lot harder to anthropomorphize a plant. :)
MR>
MR> Depends on the plant :) I am not a vegetarian myself, because it is
not
MR> within my ability at this moment to commit to such a way of life.
MR>
MR> MR> So, if I am ever rich, I'll start a network of farms that treat
the
MR> MR> animals right before killing them right (not hanging them upside
dow
n
MR> MR> while slitting their throats and then beginning to skin them with
MR> MR> them still possibly being alive).
MR>
MR> RC> Good idea.
MR>
MR> RC> Actually, I would say that my basic belief structure is:
MR>
MR> RC> No human behavior is unacceptable unless said behavior unnecessarily
MR> RC> harms or attempts to control another being incapable of informed
MR> RC> consent.
I forgot the line "Without their consent." Pretty big omission if you take
the
whole thing literally. :)
MR> That's just about the same as my little philosophy.
Cool. We should get along great, then. :)
MR> RC> Pretty liberal, I know. :)
MR>
MR> Hardly compared to some things in my head :)
hehe... I know what you mean....
Rick
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: RCC?
Date: 07 Jul 94 17:14:11
--------
EID:f658 1ce789c0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7391eb74
A similar ruling was just made here in Ontario. The Jewish special
interest group that was trying to get their schools funded was just
denied that right by the Provincial Supreme Court.
On the other hand, the Catholic schools in Ontario _are_ funded by the
government. I'm not sure how this is justified.
Tax the religion industry in all its forms!
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Todd Rourke
Sub: National Day of Fear on M
Date: 07 Jul 94 17:18:11
--------
EID:e8de 1ce78a40
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7391eb75
I hope you are not implying that A.S. Le Vay _is_ an atheist?
The only way I could accept that is if he claimed to be starting a
Satanist church to irritate the fundies and disrupt the hold of the
major religions on the other institutions in the country. If he
believes any Satanist stuff he is a nut in my book. Satan is just a
minor god the pseudo-monotheistic pantheon of the Christians.
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: Re: RCC?
Date: 07 Jul 94 22:47:48
--------
EID:a250 1ce7b5e0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1CBE54
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 05 Jul 94, Jennie Hazen was quoted as saying:
CB> -> Good Friday just became a national holiday in this country.
CB> -> another intrusion by the RCC. [sigh]
JH> Why for the RCC? I'd think that many christians of all stripes
it was their push and their legislators.
JH> would have voted for this holiday. By a national holiday do
doubtless.
JH> you mean one taken by the federal government? Or just some
yep. an official, paid, annual, bank is closed, holiday.
i'm in favor of paid holidays, btw. i see no reason for them to be
religiously driven however.
JH> Oh, something to celebrate--the Supreme court has ruled that
JH> NY cannot set up a special school district for disabled Hasidic
JH> Jews. It violates the separation of church and state.
this on top of the castigation of Forced Gestation Advocates in the 36
foot buffer zone case here in Brevard County was kinda refreshing.
into each life some sun must shine. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: Re: Teen athiests
Date: 07 Jul 94 22:49:46
--------
EID:505e 1ce7b620
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1CBECA
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 05 Jul 94, Chris Lee was quoted as saying:
CL> surely you haven't read the message, or understood it, or could
CL> understand it, or could understand anything, or you just like to
CL> "do" gods elsewhere, or somfin like that,
arguing with the Moderator is fruitless and even stupid.
we don't do god[s], here, means we don't do god[s], here.
don't debate them. don't mention them. it's quite simple.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: David Bushard
Sub: Re: echo guidelines
Date: 07 Jul 94 22:54:13
--------
EID:39fc 1ce7b6c0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1CBFD5
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 05 Jul 94, David Bushard was quoted as saying:
DB> not. maybe i'll check back in a year or two, and see if i can
DB> understand it then. in the mean time, you have my best wishes for a
what's to 'understand'?
if you want to post information about separation issues, please do.
if you want to post information about atheist issues, please do.
if you want to debate whether separation is valid or what constitutes an
atheist, please don't do it here. this isn't a debate Echo. such debates
go nowhere, serve no one, and prove nothing. they add noise and heat and
no light. they are not permitted.
in this Echo the separation of state and church is a given and we are
here to act as sentinels and reporters of any incursions by church [of
any stripe] into state. in this Echo a_theist means free of religion.
that's all there is to it.
for circular debating, there's HOLYSMOKE, PHIL, DEBATE, POLITICS and
countless bible Echos.
hope this helps.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Re: No Beliefs
Date: 07 Jul 94 22:58:24
--------
EID:4ff6 1ce7b740
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1CC0D0
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 04 Jul 94, Tom Kunesh was quoted as saying:
TK> are you suggesting that the word "atheist" - the very name of this
TK> Fido echo, has "nothing to do with belief or disbelief"?!
the name of this Echo is A_THEIST. the Sysop from whom you receive may
have it mismarked but if your system is tossing it locally, you must
have the tag set as above.
the lack of belief is not the same as disbelief. disbelief requires an
effort. the lack of belief requires nothing at all.
please don't start another definition thread.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Shadow Warrior
Sub: Re: athiest or not?
Date: 07 Jul 94 23:36:30
--------
EID:b11a 1ce7bc80
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1CC9BE
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 06 Jul 94, Shadow Warrior was quoted as saying:
SW> Although you would like to believe it is not a "christian" nation,
this isn't a debate Echo. if you want to continue this thread, please
take it to HOLYSMOKE or a bible Echo.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Crystal Burton
Sub: What else?
Date: 11 Jul 94 21:16:52
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 60153c55
REPLY: 1:297/2 2E16A883
PID: FM 2.02
cb> Thanks Jim, it's good to know I'm not alone in the darkness!!!
That's an understatement.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: tom kunesh
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:01:28
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 60153c56
REPLY: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA40B4C0
PID: FM 2.02
tk> i also just found about the "decisions" of the Internal Revenue Service
tk> in the '70s to deny tax exemptions to segregated Christian academies.
tk> if this is true, it becomes another demonstration of the IRS as
tk> enforcer of US national policy. and so much for the separation of
tk> church and state.
As much as I dislike you, I would have to tend to agree.
Were I to make a bid at getting 501(c)3 tax status for my church, I highly
sus
pect that I would be denied often. Were I to eventually acquire such status
(
or in the off-chance that it was granted without a fight) I could expect
to be
audited every year... simply because my god is a Goat.
I should like to see Christopher respond. Like it or not, there are governmen
tal agenices which _do_ decide what is a valid church and what is not and
ther
e are financial incentives in the decision. Could I, for instance, get
a publ
ic park area rented for a token dollar a day like some churches and organizati
ons? I highly suspect that I could not. Were I to claim to be a Christanic
b
rand name, I would expect it to be fairly easy.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jeff Vineburg
Sub: nonsense again - you said
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:14:05
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 60153c58
REPLY: 1:2614/705.0 2e1ac2a6
PID: FM 2.02
tk> help them think. silence is no more "holy" than noise, and
tk> i think it would be great if -more- atheists would
tk> themselves promote "minutes of silence".
This position is utterly undefendable from a rational standpoint, Tom.
(I kno
w you're not Tom, Jeff... bear with me...)
As atheists we are _generally_ expecting to acquire an education when we
go to
school, not religious indoctrination nor pauses during the day where the
theists break out their mythologies, fall to their knees and faces and where
the atheists break out their "Game Boys" or proceed with a lesson.
Mandated periods of inactivity or unguided activity are more unproductive
than
they are of benefit. If one wishes to claim that a moment of silence may
be
used reading a book, then have chapters of the book read out loud and turn
the
public school room back into a place of education!
Leave mysticism in the church and home where it belongs.
jv> I still think saying Hail Satan a few times a day would cure this.
jv> Of course if the atheists would promote it, perhaps the religious
jv> would think twice! (or is this what you meant?)
The problem with that, Jeff, is that the 'Satan' God is a Christian God
which
is indistinguishable from the other Christanic gods. Praying to _any_ Christi
an god would not cure the demand to drag the unaffected into their self-impose
d slavery to paper idol worship.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: RCC?
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:18:37
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 60153c59
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7391eb74
PID: FM 2.02
hm> A similar ruling was just made here in Ontario. The Jewish special
hm> interest group that was trying to get their schools funded was just
hm> denied that right by the Provincial Supreme Court.
hm>
hm> On the other hand, the Catholic schools in Ontario _are_ funded by the
hm> government. I'm not sure how this is justified.
It may be that the Jewish school did not accept students who were either
not J
ewish or orthodox Jewish. The Catholic schools around the world seem to
allow
any student to attend.
That might be a difference.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: National Day of Fear on M
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:22:23
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 60153c5a
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7391eb75
PID: FM 2.02
hm> I hope you are not implying that A.S. Le Vay _is_ an atheist?
He is an atheist. He doesn't believe in gods or goddesses. He and his
church
have been the target of many an investigation -- all at _OUR_ expense, of
cou
rse -- due to outrageous claims of criminal activities committed by Satanists.
The stupid fuck couldn't have chosen a better name for his church to whip
th
e religious zealots into a stupor of glistening sweat.
hm> If he believes any Satanist stuff he is a nut in my book.
He doesn't. The guy's a highly successful clown.
hm> Satan is just a minor god the pseudo-monotheistic
hm> pantheon of the Christians.
And in any event a construct more in keeping with Milton and Dante...
Yet that's a subject for the HolySmoke forum. What's important is
that when we see Anton and Friends on Geraldo being attributed to all
kinds of bizzare _criminal_ activities, Satanists just don't do it.
if you're interested in what the State of California research study
found in its investigation about supposed crimes, let me know and I
can forward to you a copy in network mail or through HolySmoke -- which
is better if you can stand the heavy message traffic.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Mitchell Peabody
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: God On Money
Date: 08 Jul 94 23:15:00
--------
EID:2016 1ce8b9e0
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org 14025004
JH)-->Yet only yesterday I read an editorial about how we should have
JH)-->a less warlike national anthem, which adduced the "In God We Trust"
Geez... that's absolute BULL! That song stands for what made this nation,
and it should stay the same.
Mitch
... Lord Levine, I should have known. Only you could be so bold.
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From: Just4kicks
To: John Jancewicz
Sub: SEPERATION OF CHURCH & STATE
Date: 02 Jul 94 01:06:12
--------
EID:0022 1ce208c0
Quotes are like the bible...collect a few and you can make just about any
poin
t you choose...
If you are curious about the mindset of our founding fathers, look to the
writ
tings of Paine, Jefferson and Madison.
Quotes:
I have sworn upon the alter of god, eternal hostility against every
form of tyranny over the mind of men.
-From a letter to Dr Benjamin Rush, 1800
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their creator with inherent and
unalienable rights, that among are these, life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness."
-From the Declaration of Independence
"We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall
be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place,
or ministry whatsoever, nor be enforced, restrained, molested,
or burthened in his body or goods, or shall otherwise suffer,
on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all
men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain,
their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall
in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
-From the Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom
What do you think?
J4K
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From: Just4kicks
To: Atlanta Bbs's
Sub: HELP ME FIND A BOARD IN ATLANTA...
Date: 02 Jul 94 01:09:33
--------
EID:bf68 1ce20920
Will someone give me the name and more importantly, the number of BBS'es
that
carry this echo in Atlanta...
Your help will be greatly appreciated...
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From: David Macdonald
To: tom kunesh
Sub: Problems with the word "weak"
Date: 08 Jul 94 13:19:13
--------
EID:c4a5 1ce86a60
MSGID: 1:232/310 100b7f5c
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: You definition
I know of course that the distinction between "weak" and "strong"
atheism is not lost on you, but I am amazed to discover I sent that message
to you. Oh, well, I seem to be having troubles with addressing messages
again! In any event, your machismo objection to "weak" is funny. May I
suggest that if it seems troublesome, we could substitute "subtle atheism"
for "weak atheism" and "gross atheism" for "strong atheism"? Naw--that
will
probably just inconvenience a whole new set of people.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: Jason Levine
To: Matthew Johnson
Sub: No Beliefs
Date: 08 Jul 94 01:31:00
--------
EID:c24f 1ce80be0
MJ>If there is no active disbelief then why does this message area exist.
Sur
e
MJ>if the cause is as great as it is, it requires activity.
This message base does NOT exist to "spread the word of atheism" or any
propaganistic crap like that. This message base exists to discuss
encroachment onto our rights by religious groups, holes in the barrier
between church and state, problems with being discriminated against
because of one's atheism, etc.
/* Did I step on the moderator's toes here? Hope not... */
***
ž OLX 2.1 TD ž Copper wire came from two lawyers arguing over a penny.
--- TriToss (tm) 1.01 - (Unregistered)
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From: Todd Rourke
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: National Day of Fear
Date: 09 Jul 94 21:37:27
--------
EID:d3eb 1ce9aca0
MSGID: 1:323/110 2e1f72d7
PID: TeleMail 1.51
HM> The only way I could accept that is if he claimed to be starting a
HM> Satanist church to irritate the fundies and disrupt the hold of the
HM> major religions on the other institutions in the country.
The Church of Satan doesn't recognize 'Satan' as a deity. At least
not in the traditional sense of the word.
-TR
... Let us have faith that right makes might. - Lincoln
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Re: RCC?
Date: 08 Jul 94 15:30:34
--------
EID:29d5 1ce87bc0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1DA95A
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 07 Jul 94, Henry Mcgrattan was quoted as saying:
HM> On the other hand, the Catholic schools in Ontario _are_ funded by
HM> the government. I'm not sure how this is justified.
does Canada have a state religion like Great Britain does?
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Tom Breuer
Sub: Re: God on money
Date: 08 Jul 94 15:53:53
--------
EID:eec4 1ce87ea0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1DAED1
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 07 Jul 94, Tom Breuer was quoted as saying:
TB> I think it was filed in Denver and it was, if I recall, about
TB> three weeks ago.
haven't seen it. i'll check the AAI BBS for info.
TB> atheists look silly. Methinks there are better things to spend our
TB> resources on.
you speak as if atheists were some kind of organization like the
Methodists or Catholics.
each person decides what's important and does what they can. if atheists
were ever to become as organized as monotheists are, we would have
realized the millenium monotheists are always worried about. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Robert Pappas
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 09 Jul 94 13:17:45
--------
EID:0a66 1ce96a20
hey steve is there a book or publication i can get that has such quotes
¨in it
? is there an atheist book catalogue i can send off for? is it ¨ok to end
a se
ntence with a preposition/
THANKS
--- DB 1.58/001027
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Langston Goldfinch
Sub: Re: Querry
Date: 09 Jul 94 17:53:58
--------
EID:d2cd 1ce98ea0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1F1C76
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 08 Jul 94, Langston Goldfinch was quoted as saying:
LG> What is the common use meaning of:
LG> Conservative
LG> Liberal
LG> Radical
i believe you want the DICTIONARY or COLLOQUIAL Echos.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Just4kicks
Sub: Re: HELP ME FIND A BOARD IN ATLANTA...
Date: 09 Jul 94 17:54:59
--------
EID:7c64 1ce98ec0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E1F1CB3
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 02 Jul 94, Just4kicks was quoted as saying:
J> carry this echo in Atlanta...
check the Seen-bys. i don't see any Net 133 Nodes at this end.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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From: James Ho
To: All
Sub: Just bungling along...
Date: 09 Jul 94 00:53:00
--------
EID:fc8d 1ce906a0
MSGID: 1:250/236 2D24E05D
Okay, I've pretty much bungled along with this base, causing the moderator
complete headaches, breaking every major rule and being threatened to get
kicked off. All this on top of every person correcting every second word
that
I speak! I was an atheist before I even learnt what the word, let alone
the
dictionary term meant! I guess that everything I have said about atheism
is
based on my beliefs (and please don't flame me in saying that atheism has
no
beliefs), and I get even more distressed when people keep on telling me
how
wrong I am and how I should kill myself before I can become an atheist
(well... not exactly, but I have a flair for the overdramatic). Can I help
it
if I am not the dictionary definition? Well, all that aside, now that I
have
been flamed all the way, I'll just lick my wounds and ask for your opinion
on
what athiesm is.
Thank you.
..James..
Oh, and what is the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?
... The music's kinda nice!... my compliments to the clef.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: James Ho
To: David Rice
Sub: We're Watching!
Date: 09 Jul 94 00:56:00
--------
EID:2d36 1ce90700
MSGID: 1:250/236 2D24E062
REPLY: 1:2613/475 86D7806D
"I like to talk about We're Watching" said David Rice.
"But why? It's such a stupid topic." replied James Ho.
"Well, at least I'm not the one making up stupid quote headers!"
DR> James, in your first sentence above you write that "aethiest"
DR> lack a belief in the gods. Then in your second sentence above
DR> you say "aethiesm" is a belief. You have contradicted yourself.
DR>
DR> An atheist is one who lacks belief in the gods. They do not
DR> have a belief system in the venue of religion.
My apologies. My mind is but a thick soup of chaotic thoughts, and I often
spend each day contradicting myself. I stand corrected.
DR> More correctly, atheists do not believe in all of the gods.
I stand corrected for not using the plural form.
..James..
... Mugging: being beaten centsless.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: James Ho
To: Jon Persky
Sub: Teen athiests
Date: 09 Jul 94 00:59:00
--------
EID:0d7f 1ce90760
MSGID: 1:250/236 2D24E066
REPLY: 1:141/256.0 2E1A3496
Once again, we see that Jon Persky has chosen to discuss Teen athiests with
James Ho. What has happened to our society?
JH> Hmmm... I was an Anglican for about 3 years before
JH> rejecting the religion. I
JH> cannot believe in an omnipotent/supreme being
JH> controlling our lives. I have
JH> also thought long and hard about this.
JP> Me too.
JH> What, about you being Anglican? :-)
JP> No, about thinking about it :) I'm Jewish by heritage.
Ah, I see. So you have actually been scoffed for being atheist?
..James..
... ***NEWSFLASH*** Energizer Bunny arrested, charged with battery.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: James Ho
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: We're Watching!
Date: 09 Jul 94 01:36:00
--------
EID:7646 1ce90c80
MSGID: 1:250/236 2D24E089
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E1B3BC6
"SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAMMITY SPAAAAAMM A SPAMMITY
SPAAAMM" chanted Christopher Baker. Luckily, James Ho had the courage to
shove
a We're Watching in Christopher Baker's face to shut the bloke up.
CB> this Echo will not be your substitute. you've acknowledged the
CB> Guidelines. now, stop violating them.
JH> Why not? A religion is a belief. Who says science isn't a belief?
CB> science is a methodology not a belief.
CB> please take this thread elsewhere.
My apologies. I shall desist.
..James..
... What do you mean I can't spill? SPELL....
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: Chris Ferree
To: Tom Breuer
Sub: God on money
Date: 09 Jul 94 13:28:00
--------
EID:1db0 1ce96b80
MSGID: 1:231/285 86DB7113
I risk responding, after reading yet another one of Chris's moderation
blitzes...
TB>I think it was filed in Denver and it was, if I recall, about three weeks
TB>It was actually a very brief AP story, but it touched off a lot of controv
TB>around here (that is, Green Bay and Appleton, Wis.). Of course, this
is a
TB>conservative area when it comes to these sorts of things. And by "a lot
of
TB>controversy" I don't mean as much as when the Packers make a major personn
TB>move or something, but it was given more than cursory attention, and
the
TB>publicity that was generated was of the "atheists are trying to persecute
TB>rest of us" variety. All I'm saying is that going to a lot of effort
to ge
TB>motto off the money is just a little anal retentive, and makes atheists
lo
TB>silly. Methinks there are better things to spend our resources on.
Christians like to delude themselves into believing that there is an
"enemy" or "adversary" out there. Their mythos begs for them, so
they've created many: "satanists," "atheists," "communists," etc. When
they hear a story about the removal of their favorite motto, they
implode and accept the story as confirmation of their hallucinations.
I don't think the motto does anything for/to us, and though I'd rather
pitch it than keep the silly thing, I find myself extremely (and
unusually) apathetic.
amicaliment,
csf
... Hey! Leave the moderating to the moderator!
* [ tag ] *
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 10 Jul 94 07:49:11
--------
EID:ff85 1cea3e20
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 75138437
"churches should be taxed"
I think every aspect of the religion industry should be taxed. It is
basically just a branch of the entertainment industry. Is there any
move afoot to bring this about?
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Jason Levine
Sub: Re: No Beliefs
Date: 10 Jul 94 15:39:21
--------
EID:59ff 1cea7ce0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E204E69
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 08 Jul 94, Jason Levine was quoted as saying:
JL> This message base does NOT exist to "spread the word of atheism"
JL> or any propaganistic crap like that. This message base exists to
JL> discuss encroachment onto our rights by religious groups, holes in
JL> the barrier between church and state, problems with being
JL> discriminated against because of one's atheism, etc.
well said but leave the moderating to the Moderator.
JL> /* Did I step on the moderator's toes here? Hope not... */
the effort is appreciated but misplaced.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Todd Rourke
Sub: Re: National Day of Fear
Date: 10 Jul 94 15:40:09
--------
EID:47ab 1cea7d00
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E204E99
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 09 Jul 94, Todd Rourke was quoted as saying:
TR> The Church of Satan doesn't recognize 'Satan' as a deity. At least
TR> not in the traditional sense of the word.
unless 'Satanists' are encroaching into the state, such topics are not
welcome here.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: RCC?
Date: 10 Jul 94 12:34:45
--------
EID:0e90 1cea6440
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86DBB692
-> A similar ruling was just made here in Ontario. The Jewish special
-> interest group that was trying to get their schools funded was just
-> denied that right by the Provincial Supreme Court.
->
-> On the other hand, the Catholic schools in Ontario _are_ funded by th
-> government. I'm not sure how this is justified.
IIRC, someone else from Canada said that there was a specific
exception made for Catholics when Canada was created. This
is a tad fuzzy; but I'm pretty sure that it was someone on
this echo. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for
the exception, so I assume that it is due to political reasons.
Bye for now,
Jennie
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Chris Lee
Sub: You definition
Date: 07 Jul 94 15:48:10
--------
EID:cf9b 1ce77e00
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA41D43A
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
tk> there are quite a few Americans who don't believe in President
tk> Clinton, but such disbelief does not mean that there is no President
tk> Clinton. more examples? -not- believing that the world was round, or
tk> that the earth circled the sun, did not and does not consequently also
tk> mean that the world is flat or that sun circled the earth. then
tk> again, belief -can- affect individuals' and groups' realities. but
tk> there is no causal relationship.
CL> by not believing in pres., you don't trust him to be competent, but
by
CL> not beleving god would mean that a person denies god's presence, since
CL> god only exist to those who believe (who keep him alive with his
CL> faith), that could mean that god doesn't exist to those who don't
CL> believe, which is completely different matter from the roundness of
CL> the earth, earth will be round regardless of our belief,
that's one heckuva sentence you wrote there - whew!
so we agree "belief" has many meanings.
but ... gods, like Isis, Zeus and Shiva do "exist"
in ways even to us "non-believers", much the same way
that fictional characters, like Sherlock Holmes and
Indiana Jones exist.
personally, i don't believe that Jesus/Yhwh exists,
but that's not a denial of its presence - it's a
statement of the reality i live in and live with.
for all i know or care, extraterrestials and gods live
among us, and i don't know anything about them.
i don't -deny- they're here or around us,
i just don't have that experience.
but i do invite anyone with such experience
to demonstrate it to me so that i, too, can believe.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Jeff Vineburg
Sub: nonsense again - you sai
Date: 07 Jul 94 16:06:57
--------
EID:f068 1ce780c0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA41D8A1
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
tk> personally, i like moments of silence. in fact, i'd prefer
tk> whole -minutes- and even an hour of silence. silence is non-
tk> denominational and may even help clear people's heads to
JV> Let's get real. This is no more than an attempt
JV> to get religion's toes into the schools.
no need to get anything, i already am quite real (i think).
regardless of who proposes "moments of slience,"
as long as it is what they say it is, i see no reason to oppose it.
simply because some religious groups are in favor of a proposal
should not cause a knee-jerk response of opposition from atheists.
JV> I hear no great cry from the non-religious for a moment of silence.
and there's the pity. i think a lot more bridges could be built between
atheists and theists if atheists were to support it with a strict and
literal interpretation.
JV> Like some sage here said.... how about a moment of SCIENCE? These kids
JV> can barely read and write, and these people are worried about silence?
supposedly the kids have -hours- of science during the week.
suggesting a moment of Science, albeit witty, is hardly justice to the topic.
> help them think. silence is no more "holy" than noise, and i think it
> would be great if -more- atheists would themselves promote "minutes of
> silence".
JV> I still think saying Hail Satan a few times a day would cure this. Of
JV> course if the atheists would promote it, perhaps the religious would
JV> think twice! (or is this what you meant?)
if atheists would support it, i do believe it would give the Religious Right
a
Great Moment of Pause, and would also allow atheists in as Official and
Posit
ive Observers of the Silent Moments. if atheists are seen as opponents to
it,
every effort will be made to exclude us from participation in the decision-mak
ing, and hate will be fomented against us. support of Free Silence would
be a
striking demonstration of atheists' concern for clear heads and sober moments
of reflection on whatever metaphysic has been drilled into a kid's head.
JV> ** Busloads full of burning schoolchildren
"Hail Satan" and "Busloads full of burning schoolchildren" ...
... why do i find this disturbing coming from an atheist?
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: ... think radically, act logically ... (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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From: tom kunesh
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: Re: alt.atheism FAQs (1 of 8)
Date: 08 Jul 94 15:43:34
--------
EID:a130 1ce87d60
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA4324A6
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
CB> In a message dated: 30 Jun 94, Tom Kunesh was quoted as saying:
CB>
TK> good deal. i'm uploading it - ATHEISM.FAQ - to 1:362/122 with this
TK> session, and will repost your msg to /122 for him to make it freqable.
CB> let me know when he has it available and i will also post it on this
CB> system. thanks.
-------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: alt.atheism FAQs (1 of 8)
To: tom kunesh Of: 1:362/122.29
From: Eric Vaughen Of: 1:362/122.2
Date: 7/1/94 7:01:31 PM
tk> from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
tk>
tk> Eric - can you make the file "ATHEISM.FAQ" freqable for Chris Baker?
tk> thanks.
it is done..
-------------------------------------------
thanks.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 10 Jul 94 16:43:46
--------
EID:4e96 1cea8560
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA45D5C2
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
-> i also just found about the "decisions" of the Internal Revenue Servi
-> in the '70s to deny tax exemptions to segregated Christian academies.
-> if this is true, it becomes another demonstration of the IRS as
-> enforcer of US national policy. and so much for the separation of
-> church and state.
JH> Actually you could argue that this is an example of the separation of
JH> church and state. The religious colleges were treated under laws that
JH> applied to everyone, and not given special privileges. Of course I
JH> think that churches should not be tax exempt anyway...
when the State defines the parameters of a religious organization -
what -is- a religious org, and what is -not- a religious org,
you have Governmental involvement in "Church" issues.
... i don't know of a way around this right off-hand, since without State
definition of what constitutes religion, -anybody- and -any- organization
could and would claim exemption from State taxes.
religious colleges and academies were and are created in a system
that exempts them from many laws. however, if they want any kind of
federal programs, they have to give up some of their exemption in
order to receive federal funds.
i, too, believe that all organizations are created equally, and that
religious organizations should need to qualify as regular non-profit
organizations and pay whatever taxes are due at that level.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Problems with the word "weak"
Date: 10 Jul 94 16:46:08
--------
EID:a7aa 1cea85c0
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA45D650
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
DM> I know of course that the distinction between "weak" and "strong"
DM> atheism is not lost on you, but I am amazed to discover I sent that
DM> message to you. Oh, well, I seem to be having troubles with
DM> addressing messages again! In any event, your machismo objection to
DM> "weak" is funny. May I suggest that if it seems troublesome, we could
DM> substitute "subtle atheism" for "weak atheism" and "gross atheism" for
DM> "strong atheism"? Naw--that will probably just inconvenience a whole
DM> new set of people.
how about "blatant" instead of "gross" ?
macho stuff is often funny to me, except when it's deadly serious
and i'm in a funny mood ... "ooops!"
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: National Day of Fear
Date: 15 Jul 94 12:57:45
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 620c4fea
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E204E99
PID: FM 2.02
TR> The Church of Satan doesn't recognize 'Satan' as a deity. At least
TR> not in the traditional sense of the word.
cb> unless 'Satanists' are encroaching into
cb> the state, such topics are not welcome here.
Are they recognized by the IRS? I see that the 'Scientologists' have been
granted tax exemption and subsidy now.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: David Rice
To: Jason Levine
Sub: Satanism & the big A
Date: 11 Jul 94 10:40:28
--------
EID:e4b4 1ceb5500
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
>TK> so ... you can probably put me down as someone who
>TK> believes that some things you call "super"natural are
>TK> actually natural. now ... where does that get us? ;)
Off-topic. ;-)
JL> I wouldn't put you down for it. If I were to someday see
JL> absolute proof that psi existed, I'd accept it, but
JL> wouldn't believe that any godly force was in effect.
JL> I would believe that it was a natural power of the human
JL> mind (with ~90% unused space, I don't think that that's
JL> an unrealistic belief).
That "90% unused" claim, while very popular, is FALSE. The
brain is 100% active: only 10%-20% of its functions are
MAPPED. It is likely that brain fuctions are redundant, and
parts of the brain act as backup to others. I suspect that
god-belief is a right-brain function.
JL> I never mentioned stuff like psi. By "supernatural", I
JL> mean "by a force which cannot be explained by any rational
JL> (scientific, if you will) laws". Like gods.
Cannot YET be understood.
--- ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
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--------
From: Langston Goldfinch
To: All
Sub: Jury Rights
Date: 11 Jul 94 09:31:34
--------
EID:aee6 1ceb4be0
MSGID: 1:396/17 2e2111c6
PID: GED386 G0615 1048
TRUE or FALSE ?????
When you sit on a jury, you have the right to vote your conscience. This
includes nullifying a law or overriding the Judge's instructions.
True. But it is extremely unlikely the judge will tell you this because
the law doesn't require it.
The Fully Informed Jury Association (FIJA) is a national network of
jury-rights activists. They are involved in education and advocating
change in laws to require Judges to inform juries of their rights.
For information call 1-800-TEL-JURY or write to :
FIJA, P.O. Box 59, Helmville MT 59843
---
* Origin: The World is a comedy for thinkers, a tragedy for feelers (1:396/17
)
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--------
From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: RCC?
Date: 11 Jul 94 16:16:11
--------
EID:37eb 1ceb8200
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 75913da7
Technically Queen Elizabeth is the monarch of Canada, although the
constitution was patriated to Canada a decade or so ago. So I suppose
one could consider the Anglican Church to be a kind of a state religion.
But there is no official religion as such.
Can you imagine living in a state that made a religion and the
government almost identical--like Iran, Iraq, Israel, Pakistan, Vatican
City, Saudi Arabia. Barf me out!
The current debate in the press up here is kind of weird. The Legion
halls have banned turbans and other religious headgear from their
premises. The RCMP just lost a bid to stop Sikhs from wearing their
turbans as part of the uniform. Personally I would prevent anyone
acting as a public official from wearing any particular religious
symbol--maybe it would be OK if they wore one of each...
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Justiss Armstrong
To: Jeff Vineburg
Sub: THE LOVE OF GOD
Date: 11 Jul 94 16:33:45
--------
EID:e02f 1ceb8420
And you know this is fiction becuase? You know for a fact that the Bible
is f
iction? If so I would like to see some proof.
" There is no such thing as Atheism, Ignorance yes, Atheism no. "
Justiss
--- FLAME v1.1
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: James Ho
Sub: Re: Just bungling along...
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:22:09
--------
EID:861a 1ceba2c0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E21E231
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 09 Jul 94, James Ho was quoted as saying:
JH> Okay, I've pretty much bungled along with this base, causing the
JH> moderator complete headaches, breaking every major rule and being
don't overdramatize. [grin]
aren't there any local separation cases you can report here?
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Re: Simpler Gov't
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:24:45
--------
EID:b5f1 1ceba300
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E21E2CD
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 10 Jul 94, Henry Mcgrattan was quoted as saying:
HM> basically just a branch of the entertainment industry. Is there
HM> any move afoot to bring this about?
is the astrology business taxed? over in West FLorida, a 'professional'
psychic got a reduction in standard business permit fee to 50% of the
rate all other businesses pay.
the simplicity of the political minds is frightening.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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--------
From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: RCC?
Date: 12 Jul 94 11:37:20
--------
EID:634b 1cec5ca0
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e228114
REPLY: 1:2613/475 86DBB692
PID: GED G1219
Hello Jennie!
Sunday July 10 1994 12:34, Jennie Hazen wrote to Henry Mcgrattan:
JH> IIRC, someone else from Canada said that there was a specific
JH> exception made for Catholics when Canada was created. This
JH> is a tad fuzzy; but I'm pretty sure that it was someone on
JH> this echo. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for
JH> the exception, so I assume that it is due to political reasons.
I thought that it was because most of the French canadians were R.C., and
when
the English took over, they made a deal with them to keep them happy. They
go
t the right to go to Roman Catholic schools rather than Protestant schools.
I
think that that was a perfectly fair thing to do then, but now it's not.
Unfo
rtunately, they're kinda stuck with it.
Ruby Tuesday
---
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From: Thomas Morton
To: All
Sub: test
Date: 10 Jul 94 12:47:00
--------
EID:7729 1cea65e0
MSGID: 1:2624/405 53be8b56
PID: RA 2.02
Now carrying this echo.
--- FMail/386 0.98a
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: James Ho
Sub: James Ho,
Date: 12 Jul 94 19:34:00
--------
EID:ce6c 1cec9c40
MSGID: 1:232/310 100bd733
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Just bungling along...
James Ho,
Do not it it bother you overly. We are all bungling along through life.
What is an atheist? There are lots of definitions and varieties, but I
would offer this: an atheist who does subscribe to belief in god(s). Whether
this is due to an epistomological outlook which precludes such belief or
to
simple disbelief may make a person as one or another sort of atheist, but
I
am looking for a simple definition here that is inclusive. Difference
between agnostic and atheist? There may be a technical one, emphasizing
the
postion of the atheist as one who feels there is not enough evidence to
choose either way on the question of the existence of god(s), but I think
that is, frankly, a little silly: I cannot prove the non-existence of those
giant invisible purple frogs we have been reading so much about in the posts
on this sub lately, but I hardly consider myself agnostic on the the subject
of their reality. I simply do not believe in things for which I have
insufficient evidence, be they god(s) or frog(s). The real root of the
term
"agnostic", I fear, is the attempt to avoid the social stigma associated
with
the term atheist. You will probably get more enlightening posts.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Re: RCC?
Date: 12 Jul 94 19:34:01
--------
EID:1ba0 1cec9c40
MSGID: 1:232/310 100936d9
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Re: RCC?
H.M.,
I really cannot see banning Sikh headgear and the small knife they
carry. It is, afterall, an absolute requirement of their religion, while
the
promiscuous display of most other religious material is voluntary and done
with the intend to seek converts. The Sikh display has no such intend and
banning it effectively removes any Sikh from participation in much of
government service.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 13 Jul 94 11:08:27
--------
EID:d8bc 1ced5900
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86DEC5C9
-> "churches should be taxed"
->
-> I think every aspect of the religion industry should be taxed. It is
-> basically just a branch of the entertainment industry. Is there any
-> move afoot to bring this about?
It is discussed fairly regularly in this echo; but I don't know
of any organized political effort to bring it about.
Bye for now,
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 13 Jul 94 11:13:51
--------
EID:a3f9 1ced59a0
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86DEC5CA
-> when the State defines the parameters of a religious organization -
-> what -is- a religious org, and what is -not- a religious org,
-> you have Governmental involvement in "Church" issues.
Which is why churches should not be tax-exempt; a government
organization must then be defining what is a church in order
to exempt it. While if they are treated like any other
organization, say they run by non-profit rules, they are not
either particularly hindered or subsidized by the government.
Seems to fit the first amendment to me. :)
So I'd say we can agree on this subject, unless I'm missing
a subtle point?
Bye for now,
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
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--------
From: Jennie Hazen
To: Ruby Tuesday
Sub: RCC?
Date: 13 Jul 94 11:19:01
--------
EID:c90f 1ced5a60
MSGID: 1:2613/475 86DEC5CB
-> JH> IIRC, someone else from Canada said that there was a specific
-> JH> exception made for Catholics when Canada was created. This
-> JH> is a tad fuzzy; but I'm pretty sure that it was someone on
-> JH> this echo. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for
-> JH> the exception, so I assume that it is due to political reasons.
->
-> I thought that it was because most of the French canadians were R.C.,
-> the English took over, they made a deal with them to keep them happy.
-> the right to go to Roman Catholic schools rather than Protestant scho
Sounds like a political reason to me :). Politics is not all bad;
it's all compromise--that's why no one likes politicians.
Bye for now,
Jennie
--- WM v3.10/92-0130
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--------
From: Chris Lee
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: Re: Teen athiests
Date: 11 Jul 94 12:23:00
--------
EID:c6bf 1ceb62e0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:271/296.0 2e232ded
CB> arguing with the Moderator is fruitless and even stupid.
and you still haven't read my previous post, trying to keep order
without knowing crap is fruitless and STUPID, i doubt the post you quoted
has ANYTHING that talks about them gods,
-PoeT '
... Wave to your neighbor, Word to your mother.
--- GEcho 1.02+
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: THE IGNORANCE OF GOD BELIEVERS
Date: 17 Jul 94 18:28:34
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6311fd09
PID: FM 2.02
ja> " There is no such thing as Atheism, Ignorance yes, Atheism no. "
Do you actually believe that there are no atheists, Justass? If so, I would
l
ike to examine this belief of yours in HolySmoke where it's on topic. If
not,
then I am not interested in the absurdity.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Tom Pardue
Sub: the truth comes out
Date: 15 Jul 94 16:46:11
--------
EID:19ec 1cef85c0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 77941c91
May I respectfully suggest that you solve your problem by giving up
Judaism?
I would highly recommend this option equally to Christians, and probably
even more enthusiastically to followers of Islam.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: RCC?
Date: 15 Jul 94 16:50:11
--------
EID:e345 1cef8640
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 77941c92
Yes, you are right about that difference between Catholic and Jewish
schools. The Catholic schools apparently let students opt out of much
of the religion classes. The Jewish schools require a half-day (!!!) of
study of Judaica and Hebrew! That was one reason given for the
government refusing to fund the Jews while they fund the Catholics.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: National Day of Fear on M
Date: 15 Jul 94 16:54:11
--------
EID:ebb7 1cef86c0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 77941c93
Yes, I would like to know more about the atheistic bent of A.S. LeVay.
I had thought he was a satanist. I guess I got sucked in to
thinking he was a Satanist since he runs the Satanist church (concrete
thinking?)
It seems to me that this is atheist information, so you shouldn't get
your balls bitten off by the moderator for posting about A.S.LaV.
But if you have some stuff you'd like to E-mail I'd love to read it.
Henry.McGrattan@crs.com
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: All
Sub: Atheist Humour
Date: 15 Jul 94 20:45:11
--------
EID:952e 1cefa5a0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7794fbe9
I have been looking for some atheist jokes. It is unfair that all the
good jokes are about theists... I haven't found any yet, so I came up
with the following:
Q: How many atheists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: None. They are afraid to See the Light!
Any other atheist jokes...?
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
* Origin: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario (1:229/15)
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--------
From: Thomas Morton
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 13 Jul 94 18:08:10
--------
EID:90a1 1ced9100
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:2624/405.0 2e2465ca
-=> Quoting Henry Mcgrattan to Jennie Hazen <=-
HM> "churches should be taxed"
"Tax the churches. Tax the busineses owned by the churches." -F.Zappa
Z
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--------
From: Thomas Morton
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: THE LOVE OF MONEY
Date: 13 Jul 94 18:08:10
--------
EID:ad81 1ced9100
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:2624/405.0 2e2465cb
-=> Quoting Justiss Armstrong to Jeff Vineburg <=-
JA> And you know this is fiction becuase? You know for a fact that the
JA> Bible is fiction? If so I would like to see some proof.
JA> " There is no such thing as Atheism, Ignorance yes, Atheism no. "
Houdy, hope you don't mind my jutting into a debate ;>
The burdon of proof rests with the claim-maker. While one person wishes
to
disprove a thing, it is generally accepted that it is a much easier task
to prove a thing, thus handling the would-be disprover quite nicely.
I also am of the opinion that the Bible is complete and utter poppycock.
However, I have an open mind, and any proof you can show that the Bible
is
indeed infallible and inspired by your god would be most helpful.
Z
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: All
Sub: A_THEIST Echo Guidelines - regular repost
Date: 15 Jul 94 00:26:16
--------
EID:e022 1cef0340
Basic Disclaimer:
This Echo operates under the premises espoused by American Atheists, Inc.,
but is in NO WAY connected to that organization other than the Moderator's
paid membership. This Echo does not represent American Atheists, Inc., nor
does it claim any link to those founders and writers of that organization.
The opinions expressed in this Echo are those of the writers identified
in
the header of each message. No other responsibility is expressed or implied
for the content of the messages in this Echo.
This Echo does not exist to promote so-called 'freethought' groups or
publications [Freedom From Religion Foundation, American Humanist
Association, American Rationalist, Prometheus Books, Atheists United,
Humanist Quest for Truth, etc.] other than the goals of American Atheists,
Inc., as stated below. Promotion of those groups will be considered
'off-topic'. Participants from those groups are welcome to post so long
as
they remember that prohibition and stick to rationales without advertising.
Publication of reading material or periodicals sources or addresses will
not
be considered off-topic and are welcome in this Echo.
Echo facts:
This Echo is Hosted and Moderated by Christopher Baker from Rights On!,
FidoNet Node 1:374/14, in Titusville_FL_USA, and by Jackson Harding from
The Cockpit, FidoNet Node 3:800/857, in Nairne_SA_Australia. Anyone
desiring a link to this Echo should contact their local Backbone links.
The Echo is now available on the Zone 1 Backbone and is sent to Zone 3
through Jackson Harding at 3:800/857.
This Echo provides a forum for the discussion of atheism and free thought.
It is not a sounding board for rabid anti-religionists or for
fundamentalist dogmas intended to 'save our souls' from the power of an
open mind.
NOTE:
Those who wish to engage in religious debate outside the scope of the
separation issue are directed to the HOLYSMOKE Echo from 1:152/20 [which
is now on the Zone 1 Backbone and is also gated to Zone 3] or one of the
other religious criticism Echos.
The subject of proof or non-proof of any god or gods is off-topic in this
Echo. As atheists we know the existence of god or gods is unproven and
unsupportable by logic, reason or scientific proof. The debate of existence
of god or gods is unnecessary and unwelcome. Go to HOLYSMOKE or a bible
Echo
for such debate. In this Echo, there is no god or gods nor has there ever
been nor will there ever be.
The subject of changing the name or scope of this Echo from the posted name
and scope will be considered off-topic and not permitted. Anyone who finds
the Echo does not meet their expectations of what should be discussed is
encouraged to start one of their own that does.
Correction of the spelling, grammar, or style of other people's messages
is
off-topic. It is pointless noise. Refrain from it.
Proselytizers and preachers of the 'gospel' will be unwelcome if they cannot
debate without resorting to 'you must believe this' or 'you must have faith'
or 'you will all fry in hell', etc. Such outbursts will result in the links
to the offending system being cut if the Sysop of that system cannot prevent
future outbursts of that type.
Personal attacks will not be permitted. Participants will confine themselves
to ideas and facts and avoid personality clashes or ego wars. Private
messages are not permitted. Sysops are expected to restrict this Echo to
public messages only.
In the discussion of atheism, the following definition will be the
operational precept of the Echo:
a-theism = free of religion.
Aliases are not permitted. It's time for atheists to come out of the closet.
Handles may be used so long as they are not used to avoid responsibility
for
the attached posts, are normally used in other Echos, and where the actual
identity of the person under the handle is available upon request to the
Sysop of the posting system or the Moderator of this Echo.
A_THEIST ECHO OFF-TOPIC POSTING PENALTIES SCHEDULE
These penalties are listed only for those who cannot follow directions or
stick to the posted Guidelines and who fail to curtail their non-compliance
after being instructed by the Moderator to do so. It has been necessary
in
the past to disconnect systems from their links to the A_THEIST Echo because
the Sysops of those systems refused to keep their traffic or the traffic
of
their Users on the posted topics of the Echo, namely, separation of state
and church issues and atheist information.
Step 1: First off-topic message will result in a warning in the Echo;
Step 2: Second off-topic message will result in warning in the Echo
and Netmail to you or your Sysop if you are a User;
Step 3: Third off-topic message will result in the disconnection of
the offending system at the NEC and REC levels as required.
These penalties will be invoked only as a last resort when reason and
redirection has failed to bring the poster back on-topic or when it is
obvious that the poster has no intention of adhering to the posted
Guidelines.
End of Off-Topic Penalty Schedule
The President [Jon Murray] and Editor Emeritus [Madalyn O'Hair] of American
Atheists have been invited to participate in this Echo. Anyone desiring
membership or more information about the organization may write to Jon
Murray at: American Atheists, Inc., P.O. Box 140195, Austin, TX, 78714-0195.
Their telephone is: (512) 458-1244, 0900-1700 CT; FAX (512) 467-9525. AAI
also operates American Atheist Online Services [AAOS] through an electronic
bulletin board at: (512) 302-0247 [300-2400 bps]; (512) 302-0223 [300-
14400 bps]; (512) 302-0247 [300-14400 bps]. AAOS has a complete message
and file system with many sources of information and exchange. The Sysop
of AAOS is Robin Murray-O'Hair.
Echo Purpose:
1. Stimulate freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious dogmas
and practices;
2. Collect and disseminate information on all religions and their
histories;
3. Advocate and labor for the complete and absolute separation of
church and State;
4. Advocate and labor for a thoroughly secular system of education
available to all;
5. Encourage development and acceptance of a human ethical system
stressing the responsibility of individuals to society;
6. Develop and propagate a social philosophy in which man/woman is
the central figure who alone must be the strength of humanity;
7. Promote the study of arts and sciences for the enrichment of
human life.
"Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts
the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical
outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent
of
all arbitrary assumptions and creeds." American Atheists, Inc.
The current list of primary Echo link points is as follows:
1:374/14 [Host/Moderator], [Zone 1] Backbone, also available via the PODS.
Zone 3 is linked through 3:800/857.
Sample files of the A_THEIST Echo and a listing of Atheist files are
available from 1:374/14 as A_THEIST.ZIP or the magic filename of ATHEIST.
For anyone who does not understand these Guidelines as published, there
is
a fully annotated version available as A_ECHO-A.RUL for file request from
this system. It is also included in the A_THEIST.ZIP sample file.
File requests are honored anytime except 0100-0130 ET and Zone 1 ZMH
[0500-0600 EDT; 0400-0500 EST].
Welcome to a new dawn in religiously unimpeded thinking! [grin]
TTFN.
Chris & Jackson
A_THEIST Echo Moderators
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: tom kunesh
Sub: No Beliefs
Date: 12 Jul 94 07:55:00
--------
EID:856c 1cec3ee0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e224def
REPLY: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA3DBCE9
PID: GED G0214 11OZ1
Hello tom!
In a msg of Monday July 04 1994, tom kunesh mumbled about No Beliefs
to Jackson Harding:
tk> really?!
tk> are you suggesting that the word "atheist" -
tk> the very name of this Fido echo,
BBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT Wrong. The name of this echo is A_THEIST, not ATHEIST
(ATHEIST is a completely separate echo, check it out). This echo is to
discus
s matters of separation of church and state. The little "_" is small, but
imp
ortant. It constantly amazes that this little play on words confuses so
many
people, yourself included.
tk> has "nothing to do with belief or disbelief"?!
No, nothing at all, separation has absolutely nothing to do with belief
or dis
belief. Separation is supported by believers also, it stops the government
in
terfering in their religion just as much as it stops religion interfering
in g
overnment. Some religiously minded people happen to agree that this is
a desi
rable thing.
tk> ... how curious ...
No, not at all. What is curious is that an obviously intelligent person
such
as yourself needs to have this subtle distinction pointed out to them so
many
times.
TTFN,
Jackson
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Simpler Gov't
Date: 15 Jul 94 20:47:45
--------
EID:93b2 1cefa5e0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E272E31
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 11 Jul 94, Fredric Rice was quoted as saying:
tk> if this is true, it becomes another demonstration of the IRS as
tk> enforcer of US national policy. and so much for the separation of
tk> church and state.
FR> I should like to see Christopher respond. Like it or not, there
FR> are governmental agenices which _do_ decide what is a valid church
okay. let's just ask them. i'll call the IRS Monday and request all
their application info and let you know.
FR> and there are financial incentives in the decision. Could I, for
FR> instance, get a public park area rented for a token dollar a day
FR> like some churches and organizations? I highly suspect that I could
i can rent a public park area for nothing [is that rent?] if i do it for
the High School Drama Booster club of which i am currently president.
i'll ask them if they have a different rate for religions and get back
to you.
FR> claim to be a Christanic brand name, I would expect it to be fairly
FR> easy.
is California a place where such 'discounts' are common?
TTFN.
Chris
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--------
From: Justiss Armstrong
To: Mitchell Peabody
Sub: THE LOVE OF GOD
Date: 15 Jul 94 09:17:52
--------
EID:603e 1cef4a20
Why are you challenging me? I was asking a simple question. I expected
that
I would get a reply with a question, but like the saying goes, I asked first.
And now I have a second question actually part 2 to the first question,
have a
ny of you ever read the Bible?
I did not put those questions there to start debate, I would just rather
see w
hat people have to say. That's all.
--- FLAME v1.1
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--------
From: Thomas Morton
To: All
Sub: Hello
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:50:32
--------
EID:5fb8 1ceba640
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:2624/405.0 2e21e8db
GP1 of Poughkeepsie NY is now connected to this echo.
Houdy!
Z
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--------
From: Mitchell Peabody
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: The Love Of God
Date: 13 Jul 94 06:15:00
--------
EID:b849 1ced31e0
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org 1d7c7c4e
JA> And you know this is fiction becuase? You know for a fact that the
Bible
i
JA> fiction? If so I would like to see some proof.
And you know this is true because? Do you know for a fact the the bible
is true? If so, I would like to see some proof.
JA> " There is no such thing as Atheism, Ignorance yes, Atheism no. "
"ATHEISM - disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity."
-Webster
Mitch
---
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Mitchell Peabody
Sub: Re: The Love Of God
Date: 14 Jul 94 15:20:17
--------
EID:004b 1cee7a80
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E258FF1
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 13 Jul 94, Mitchell Peabody was quoted as saying:
MP> And you know this is true because? Do you know for a fact the the
MP> bible is true? If so, I would like to see some proof.
take him over to HOLYSMOKE for such debate. it is off-topic here.
MP> "ATHEISM - disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity."
MP> -Webster
likewise are definitions outside the Echo Guidelines.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Re: RCC?
Date: 14 Jul 94 15:23:59
--------
EID:29d5 1cee7ae0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2590CF
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 13 Jul 94, Henry Mcgrattan was quoted as saying:
HM> The only sign of sanity and cause of optimism is that church
HM> attendance has fallen, support to oppose abortion has fallen, and
HM> the medieval ways of the religoids is waning. But we are a few
HM> decades from actually putting the signature on the death
HM> certificate.
i caught the tail-end of an essay on public radio yesterday wherein the
speaker was bemoaning the fact that organized religion [didn't catch
which one] was within a generation of collapsing under its own weight
and lack of new blood.
he also mentioned an organization dedicated to reproselytizing the
'fallen' and the young to rebuild the foundation for future generations.
did anyone else hear this report and get the details?
TTFN.
Chris
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Thomas Morton
Sub: Re: Hello
Date: 14 Jul 94 15:25:06
--------
EID:35e0 1cee7b20
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E259112
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 11 Jul 94, Thomas Morton was quoted as saying:
TM> GP1 of Poughkeepsie NY is now connected to this echo.
welcome to the Echo. the Guidelines will be published tomorrow.
TTFN.
Chris
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--------
From: Ronald K. Beatty
To: James Singer
Sub: Finally Replying
Date: 14 Jul 94 21:40:00
--------
EID:61c9 1ceead00
MSGID: 1:109/615.0 2e25e8f0
Hi James!! I'm finally getting my reply out to you. Sorry it
took so long, but it's a long story!! Anyways, so how's it
going out there in Texas? Pretty good here. Way to hot if you
ask me. I imagine it is even hotter out there!!
JS>I'm here...My name is James and I'm a Criminal Justice major at
Southwest Texas State University in San Marcos Texas.
Criminal justice, wow that's cool!! Are you going to be a
detective or like a forensics expert or something? I always
wanted to do that. My parents always said that is what I should
do because it fasinated me and I loved it so much. So what does
it involve? How long do you have to go to school?
JS> I'm originally from Altoona Pa. God, I really miss the "Real"
seasons. I even miss winter. The average temp. here is about 45
F. For the last two weeks it has been between 98 and 100
degrees with a heat index of about 103-108.
I can sympathyize ( I'm a really bad speller. Sorry!) with you,
but it has been nothing but hot, hot, hot out here, even when
it rains. I hate the summer, so I always miss winter. I could
never live in a place like Florida or Texas, it would be like
torture to me!! I find it hard to even vacation there. Let me
freeze my butt off in a ski resort any day!! At least then
I would be happy. I don't know how you do it. I really have to
commend you!!!
JS>So how are things where you are? When do you graduate and with
what kind of degree? Bye...James
I hope to graduate in 97' but it looks like it will probably be
98' or if I don't pass sight singing maybe even later. All this
for only a bachlor's degree. Most others would have a masters
by then. Sometimes I just have to ask myself why. Ah, but the
world needs another poor, struggling, starving musician.
Looking forward to your reply!! Talk to you later.......
Sarah
___
X SLMR 2.1a X All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Ronald K. Beatty
To: Robert Forrer
Sub: Hi!!
Date: 14 Jul 94 21:53:02
--------
EID:4ffa 1ceeaea0
MSGID: 1:109/615.0 2e25ebfe
RF> -=> Quoting Sarah Beatty to All <=-
RF> SB> Is anyone recieving my messages? I write and write but am not
RF> SB> getting any replies. Are you just not repling or have you not recieve
d
RF> SB> them? Someone please drop me a line and let me know what is going
on!
!
RF> SB> Thanks in advance..............
RF>Well...I saw you in Dallas :^) If you want to talk let me know...
RF>Robert
RF>DTR
RF>P.S. I am an Engineering major
Hi Robert!! How's it going? Not bad here. A little to hot for
me though!! I'd love to chat. What do you want to talk about?
So where do you go to school? I am a music major at George
Mason University in Virginia. I also live in Va. Campus is
about 30 sometimes 20 minutes from my house so I'm a commuter.
I love to ski and hate hot weather. I'm convinced that living
in some place like Texas or Florida would kill me. I don't know
how you do it. I guess you just get used to it. Anyways, I
would love to hear from you again, so drop me a line when you
get a chance. Talk to you later.........
Sarah
___
X SLMR 2.1a X All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Ronald K. Beatty
To: Harvey Apple
Sub: Chatting....
Date: 14 Jul 94 22:24:06
--------
EID:b7ae 1ceeb300
MSGID: 1:109/615.0 2e25f346
Harvey wrote to me the other day and I didn't get to finish
repling, so here's the rest:
HA> So what about you...How come GMU? Do they have a good Law School? I
want to go to a Law School next fall but I do not know where to
go...I am looking at American though...I went there for a summer
and fell in love with the location...and I could live on the
streets of DC and be happy...What do you think of it...Is this
more than you asked for? I hope not...I also hope that all of
this writing is not putting you to sleep. I'll let you go and
I'd like to see a nice long response like this soon......Take
care......H
Hi Harvey!! What's Up? How comw GMU huh. Well that's a long
story. It mostley has to do with their excellent music programm
and wonderful band director. It is also very convienent. I am
a terrible speller, so please forgive any errors. Campus is
about 20 minutes from my house. I could never live in a dorm
because of sheer volume of musical instruments alone. I was
just lucky that the college I live by happened to have a
wonderful music program. I live with my parents (this is the
part in the script where you groan) and it's really not that
bad. They let me come and go as I please as long as I respect
the fact that they have to get up early for work. It really
beats living in a dorm. No way would I want to be puking my
guts out in a public bathroom with a party going on down the
hall. Give me my own bed, car and bathroom. I wouldn't trade
that for any dorm experience, especially when my parents are so
cool. Anyways, now that I have probably bored you to death I
will move on. From what I have heard Mason has a great law
school. It is not with the main campus though. It is in a city
right next to D.C. I would never live on the streets of D.C. or
by them for that matter. That would certainly make the college
experience interesting!!! If I were you I would live in a
suburb. Then you can enjoy the good points of D.C. without
actually having to live there. Anyways, thanks for the
lengthy letter!! I hope this coupled with the first half is
more then adiquet(?) for your lenth requirements. Remember,
size doesn't matter. Anyways, I look forward to hearing from
you again. Keep in touch. Talk to you later........
Sarah
___
X SLMR 2.1a X All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Henry Mcgrattan
Date: 15 Jul 94 23:07:03
--------
EID:dd74 1cefb8e0
MSGID: 1:232/310 100c0922
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Re: RCC?
Henry Mcgratten,
It it too cavalier to dismiss Sikhs as "nuts" for not putting aside the
turban. The turban is an absolute requirement of the religion--it is not
a
matter of simple choice of headgear. To put aside the turban is renounce
the
religion, to depart from the cultural and religious community. I stand
aside
to no man in my personal atheism, but i also try to maintain a decent respect
and sensitiity toward my fellow humans. The requirement that Sikhs either
put aside the turban or stay away from the police is a requirement that
does
neither. Certainly, the turban is much more important to a Sikh than your
whim ought be to you!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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--------
From: Jeff Vineburg
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: The Love Of God
Date: 14 Jul 94 10:48:32
--------
EID:7c5d 1cee5600
MSGID: 1:2614/705.0 2e255040
JA>And you know this is fiction becuase? You know for a fact
>that the Bible is fiction? If so I would like to see some
>proof.
You can't prove a negative, my good man.
Prove to me that God exists.
Apologies.
We're off topic.
I think you need to go to HOLYSMOKE.
JA> " There is no such thing as Atheism, Ignorance yes, Atheism no. "
You were taught well.
* SLMR 2.1a * Manic Depression is a frustrating mess.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Jeff Vineburg
To: All
Sub: abortion in healthcare
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:36:12
--------
EID:1c80 1cee6480
MSGID: 1:2614/705.0 2e25697c
The Catholic church, in yet another warm, caring and compassionate
moment, vowed to fight any healthcare program that includes abortion,
even if if means no coverage for all Americans.
If they want a voice, tax them.
They could better spend their time weeding out the pedophiles anyway.
In related news, President Hillary stated that they could accept no
abortion coverage in the plan. What a completely spineless sack of
dung.
* SLMR 2.1a * I'm pro-life, and I'll kill you to prove it
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Mark Kambites
To: Langston Goldfinch
Sub: Querry
Date: 12 Jul 94 21:42:10
--------
EID:eaaa 1cecad40
MSGID: 2:253/419.123@fidonet 2e236292
REPLY: 1:396/17 2e1d3f8c
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
YOOHOO Langston
I don't suppose you're really interested in this, but I thought it might
be fu
n to see how the definitions differ on different sides of the pond....
LG> What is the common use meaning of:
LG> Conservative
In this country, it has a different meaning depending on whether it is
spelt
with an upper case or a lower case C. With a small c it means disliking
change
. With a big C it refers to the Conservative Party - the more capitalistic
of
the two largest political parties - or to somebody who shares the philosophy
o
f that party.
LG> Liberal
Unrestrictive is the closest I can come to a sensible definition.
LG> Radical
Differing extremely from the status quo.
/\/)ark
--- Spot 1.2d Unregistered
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: THE LOVE OF GOD
Date: 15 Jul 94 00:53:48
--------
EID:b706 1cef06a0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2e25defd
PID: GED/2 G0615 1039US3
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7545
JA> " There is no such thing as Atheism, Ignorance yes, Atheism no. "
Oh, really?? How unfair! Explain why your group get to exist and ours
can't!
--- Synchronet/Fastecho
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: RCC?
Date: 20 Jul 94 20:11:38
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 64941e18
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 77941c92
PID: FM 2.02
hm> Yes, you are right about that difference between Catholic and Jewish
hm> schools. The Catholic schools apparently let students opt out of much
hm> of the religion classes. The Jewish schools require a half-day (!!!)
of
hm> study of Judaica and Hebrew! That was one reason given for the
hm> government refusing to fund the Jews while they fund the Catholics.
Somewhere along the line the various participants in this forum who were
inter
ested in such things talked a bit about Catholic schools. Though I have
never
been to one, I know that they are among the finest in quality of education.
And, as you say, the religious indoctrination isn't mandated.
Fun, huh? The school voucher proposed in California would have granted
financ
ial incentive for a bewildering variety of religions and brand names of
religi
ons to start-up their own school. What do you think would be the result?
I'm curious what people think they could expect.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: National Day of Fear on M
Date: 20 Jul 94 20:18:16
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 64941e19
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 77941c93
PID: FM 2.02
hm> Yes, I would like to know more about the atheistic
hm> bent of A.S. LeVay. I had thought he was a satanist.
He's the head of the Satanist Church. They just don't believe in 'Satan.'
The
guy is a circus performer who knew what it took to get people's attention
and
hold it. Adopting the name of a negative Christian God got people's attentio
n. His church is nothing more than a philosophy of "be responsible
f
or yourself. Harm no one unless someone harms you in which case, take Mr
Base
ball bat to whoever instigated the harm."
It's a philosophy much like Objectivism is.
hm> It seems to me that this is atheist information, so you shouldn't get
hm> your balls bitten off by the moderator for posting about A.S.LaV.
Well, Moderator warns me about twice a month, it seems. Yet this
is
off topic as it doesn't really address separation issues. So far as I know,
L
eVay gets his tax subsidy like any other church who wishes it. Wouldn't
it be
great to have the State reduce _our_ taxes simply because we claim we are
a c
hurch? Satanists don't have deities so I'm wondering what the IRS deems
is a
church.
hm> But if you have some stuff you'd like to E-mail I'd love to read it.
I have very little on it. The philosophy doesn't interest me much and,
really
, the stupid name of the circus performer's church says nothing about the
phil
osophy.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Atheist Humour
Date: 20 Jul 94 20:18:56
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 64941e1a
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7794fbe9
PID: FM 2.02
> Q: How many atheists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
> A: None. They are afraid to See the Light!
LOVE IT! I'll pass this one on.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Thomas Morton
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 20 Jul 94 20:22:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 64941e1d
REPLY: 1:2624/405.0 2e2465ca
PID: FM 2.02
HM> "churches should be taxed"
tm> "Tax the churches. Tax the busineses owned by the churches." -F.Zappa
I wish the guy would run for presidential office and _seriously_ make a
bid. I
t would be great to have Zappa in the white house. Strange, perhaps, yet
neat
.
How about having the government collectivize church real property? Make
it pu
blic-access, public-domain? If they're going to act like they are entitiled
t
o taxaction subsidy, make them have a valid reason for having one.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 20 Jul 94 20:29:01
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 64941e1e
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E272E31
PID: FM 2.02
tk> if this is true, it becomes another demonstration of the IRS as
tk> enforcer of US national policy. and so much for the separation of
tk> church and state.
FR> I should like to see Christopher respond. Like it or not, there
FR> are governmental agenices which _do_ decide what is a valid church
cb> okay. let's just ask them. i'll call the IRS Monday and
cb> request all their application info and let you know.
Application for 501(c)3? I would love to know what it says! Though The
Resto
red Church of the Star Goat has no fiscal concerns as yet, that could change
v
ery quickly. Indeed, today I bought 12 ritual knives which, were I to wish
it
, are considered religious artifacts I could write-off.
FR> and there are financial incentives in the decision. Could I, for
FR> instance, get a public park area rented for a token dollar a day
FR> like some churches and organizations? I highly suspect that I could
cb> i can rent a public park area for nothing [is that rent?] if
cb> i do it for the High School Drama Booster club of which i am
cb> currently president. i'll ask them if they have a different
cb> rate for religions and get back to you.
You certainly are kept very busy. }:-} Thanks. I'm greatly curious.
FR> claim to be a Christanic brand name, I
FR> would expect it to be fairly easy.
cb> is California a place where such 'discounts' are common?
Mile Square Park in Southern California is typically sectioned-off into
pieces
every week end. A great many family parties are held under treets and such
a
nd a great many religious outings get held during parts of the year. Anyone
m
ay use the park and not pay anything. What comes into play is when a group
wi
shes to stay over night in the park. HAM Radio Operators set up their tents
a
nd tables on the one day of the year where competition over 24 hours takes
pla
ce and they may or may not have to pay money.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: THE HATRED OF GODS
Date: 20 Jul 94 20:30:00
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 64941e1f
PID: FM 2.02
ja> Why are you challenging me?
Please come to the HolySmoke forum where your martyr complex might be fed.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: RCC?
Date: 20 Jul 94 20:33:43
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 64941e20
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E2590CF
PID: FM 2.02
#include Henry Mcgrattan
HM> The only sign of sanity and cause of optimism is that church
HM> attendance has fallen, support to oppose abortion has fallen, and
HM> the medieval ways of the religoids is waning. But we are a few
HM> decades from actually putting the signature on the death
HM> certificate.
Something has to replace the already growing void. While atheism is growing
a
nd deity-oriented religions are on the decline, nature-oriented religions
are
having bumper-crops of new wide-eyed believers.
I think this for the best since they have not slaughtered millions of people
y
et. }:-} Unlike other 'monotheistic' ones.
cb> i caught the tail-end of an essay on public radio yesterday wherein
the
cb> speaker was bemoaning the fact that organized religion [didn't catch
cb> which one] was within a generation of collapsing under its own weight
cb> and lack of new blood.
I didn't hear it. I wonder if it could be Catholicism due to a lack of
males
entering into their priesthood.
Free Inquiry broke down the declin by brand name of Christianity, didn't
it?
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Chris Ferree
To: James Ho
Sub: Just bungling along...
Date: 16 Jul 94 13:47:00
--------
EID:5edf 1cf06de0
MSGID: 1:231/285 86E243B6
JH> Okay, I've pretty much bungled along with this base, causing the moderato
JH>complete headaches, breaking every major rule and being threatened to
get
JH>kicked off.
All because you're an ignorant newbie who didn't hang around long
enough to see how Chris operates. Shucks, I feel sorry for you. Make
you a deal - why don't we both go to HOLYSMOKE and.. euh.. continue
this thread?
JH>All this on top of every person correcting every second word t
JH>I speak!
As it should be. BTW, you need two spaces after a period, question
mark, or exclamation mark.
JH>I was an atheist before I even learnt what the word
Wow.
JH>let alone th
JH>dictionary term meant!
And you still don't.
JH>I guess that everything I have said about atheism i
JH>based on my beliefs
Obviously, and quite ego-centric, I may add. If I thought the modern
twist of Christianity meant screaming, "God wills it!" and murdering
Saracens, should I tell everyone to back off because it was my belief
and it was my definition?
JH>(and please don't flame me in saying that atheism has
JH>beliefs)
There's something wrong when you have to put your tail between your
legs and beg that others won't flame you. You only get flamed when
you're incorrect or thought to be incorrect.
JH>and I get even more distressed when people keep on telling me ho
JH>wrong I am and how I should kill myself before I can become an atheist
JH>(well... not exactly, but I have a flair for the overdramatic). Can I
help
JH>if I am not the dictionary definition?
Your ignorance furthers the ignorance of others regarding the nature
and origins of atheism. Also, dictionaries are quite biased, perhaps
you should stop using the phrase "dictionary definition." My personal
dictionary, a Webster's Collegiate, calls an atheist "one who does not
believe or denies the existance of God." Obviously, this is incorrect.
JH>Well, all that aside, now that I ha
JH>been flamed all the way, I'll just lick my wounds and ask for your opinion
~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~
Furthering the James "Little Dog" Ho anology..
JH>what athiesm is.
~~~~~~~
Atheism.
JH> Oh, and what is the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?
You call yourself an "athiest" (also, occasionally, an "atheist") yet
you know not the definition of agnosticism? How old are you? Can you
count your last-finished grade on your right hand? Or did you just go
to a public school in America?
... Ź.Ź "Not tonite Natasha, I Have a Headache!"
* [ tag ] *
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From: Chris Ferree
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 16 Jul 94 13:55:00
--------
EID:14ff 1cf06ee0
MSGID: 1:231/285 86E243B7
HM>"churches should be taxed"
HM>I think every aspect of the religion industry should be taxed.
Religion does many good things (and many more bad things) and being one
who emphatically shows disdain upon any form of self-delusion (summed
up in my statement in HOLYSMOKE, "Atheists are the kind of people who
drink their coffee black." Boy, I'm clever. ;>). Some might say I'm
boring. ;]
HM>It is basically just a branch of the entertainment industry.
Such is a judgement -- I would not label religion "entertainment" any
more than I would have Jack Kemp shot. Religion is a deep
psychological state of self-delusion, employing ritual to provide
stability.
HM>Is there any move afoot to bring this about?
Somehow I doubt, though Chris Baker is more knowledgable than I.
Certainly not a large movement, nor a liberal one, because I would have
heard about it on NBC Nightly News. ;>
... Jean-Luc, I know what you're thinking...ž Troi
* [ tag ] *
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From: Chris Ferree
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: No Beliefs
Date: 16 Jul 94 13:58:00
--------
EID:7b1c 1cf06f40
MSGID: 1:231/285 86E243B8
CB>well said but leave the moderating to the Moderator.
I keep waiting for an A_THEIST layman to write another, repeating the
above quote. ;>
regards, you propaganistic slime-bag,
csf (all in fun...)
... My brain wishes my ego had call-waiting ...
* [ tag ] *
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--------
From: Chris Ferree
To: Mitchell Peabody
Sub: The Love Of God
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:04:00
--------
EID:5353 1cf07080
MSGID: 1:231/285 86E243B9
MP>And you know this is true because? Do you know for a fact the the bible
MP>is true? If so, I would like to see some proof.
Eeek, not touching that one.
MP>JA> " There is no such thing as Atheism, Ignorance yes, Atheism no.
"
MP>"ATHEISM - disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity."
MP> -Webster
Please provide a more detailed quote-line, for I have a Webster's
dictionary that is not so accurate when describing atheism, not that
that quote was without its quirks.. That one would specifically mention
his deity is quite.. ego-centric.
... No one has ever died an atheist. -Plato-
* [ tag ] *
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From: Sid Schneider
To: All
Sub: Any other Canadian Atheists?
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:03:40
--------
EID:da90 1cf17060
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 2e29aabc
Oh please don't let me be the ONLY atheist in Canada with a modem!!
I have spent countless hours speaking to believers about there reasons for
bel
ieving. It all seems to come down to this: We are all here, therefore we
must
have been created by a superior being.
If that is religious logic, let me espouse some rational logic. If the univers
e was created by a superior being, then WHO CREATED THE SUPERIOR BEING?
Surely
this is a subject just as worthy of inclusion in the questions raised by
thos
e tangled in religious bondage!
Another flawed reason for believing: If we don't believe in god, then how
do w
e define a universal value system? Why aren't people killing each other
becaus
e there would be no law against it without god?
I have heard the above reasons cited over and over again by religious leaders
of MAJOR faiths who are more intent on maintaining there status quo of "leader
of followers" than at understanding and studying the 'rational arguments'
fav
ouring Atheism. They cling to the centuries-old theological explanations
passe
d down to them blindly by brainwashed elders, never even daring to think
for t
hemselves or even to question their own theories.
I am desperately looking for others to chat with and share thoughts and
ideas
supporting atheism. Let's face it.... we exist as a small part of the universa
l makeup. Man is not the reason for the existence of the universe, but a
part
of it. And if the species Homo Sapiens were to disappear tomorrow, well
the su
n will probably shine brighter because of it the next day. And time will
still
tick-tock onward.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Mitchell Peabody
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: The Love Of God
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:19:00
--------
EID:5f0e 1cf1ba60
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org 4c27942b
CB> take him over to HOLYSMOKE for such debate. it is off-topic here.
Sorry... just participating in the thread... :)
Mitch
---
ž NFX v1.3 [000] I logon, therefore I am
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--------
From: Mitchell Peabody
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: The Love Of God
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:19:00
--------
EID:b849 1cf1ba60
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org 729ea897
JA> Why are you challenging me? I was asking a simple question. I expected
t
JA> I would get a reply with a question, but like the saying goes, I asked
fir
s
I WAS replying. I wasn't challenging you, if you thought so, then maybe
you
should see the wording in the message you sent the other gentleman.
JA> And now I have a second question actually part 2 to the first question,
ha
v
JA> any of you ever read the Bible?
I am reading it now. I must say, despite it being off-topic here for a
moment, that it seems to ME at least, more like a bad soap-opera than
a collection of biographries. Just my opinion... :)
JA> I did not put those questions there to start debate, I would just rather
s
e
JA> what people have to say. That's all.
And I like-wise did not want to start a debate, however, you say you are
seeking what people say, I told you what I thought.
Mitch
---
ž NFX v1.3 [000] YIP YAP YIP YIP YAP -- ŻBANG!Ž -- NO TERRIER
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From: Todd Rourke
To: Thomas Morton
Sub: test
Date: 17 Jul 94 21:15:26
--------
EID:89ad 1cf1a9e0
MSGID: 1:323/110 2e29ffaa
PID: TeleMail 1.51
TM> Now carrying this echo.
Welcome, Z-Man.
-TR
... Professors, students, philistines, and donkeys. - Heine
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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From: David Macdonald
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Atheist Humour
Date: 17 Jul 94 09:30:01
--------
EID:2375 1cf14bc0
MSGID: 1:232/310 100b49a4
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Atheist Humour
You still do not have a good joke.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: RCC?
Date: 15 Jul 94 18:22:01
--------
EID:72cc 1cef92c0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e26d459
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 75913da7
PID: GED G0214 11OZ1
Hello Henry!
In a msg of Monday July 11 1994, Henry Mcgrattan said all this to Christopher
Baker:
HM> Technically Queen Elizabeth is the monarch of Canada, although the
HM> constitution was patriated to Canada a decade or so ago. So I suppose
HM> one could consider the Anglican Church to be a kind of a state religion.
HM> But there is no official religion as such.
The situation with the Queen in Canada is the same as it is in Australia.
She
is the Queen of Canada, the Queen of Australia and the Queen of England.
Same
person, three different crowns. It is only as the Queen of England (not,
tak
e note, as Queen of the United Kingdom) that she is head of a State Church,
th
e Church of Scotland is a different Church again.
The differences end there, from memory the Canadian Constitution mentions
"God
", the Australian does not (although the covering clauses, those parts of
the
British Act that established the Constitution do, as do all British acts,
incl
uding presumably the Canada Act).
See Ya,
Jackson
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: Re: THE LOVE OF GOD
Date: 16 Jul 94 11:47:04
--------
EID:05e5 1cf05de0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2800F8
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 15 Jul 94, Justiss Armstrong was quoted as saying:
JA> I did not put those questions there to start debate, I would just
JA> rather see what people have to say. That's all.
we don't do god[s], their book[s], or their denomination[s], here.
take your subject line and bible questions to a bible Echo or to
HOLYSMOKE Echo where they are on-topic.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Ronald K. Beatty
Sub: Re: Finally Replying
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:23:15
--------
EID:651a 1cf072e0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E282593
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 14 Jul 94, Ronald K. Beatty was quoted as saying:
RKB> Hi James!! I'm finally getting my reply out to you.
RKB> Sarah
this Echo goes around the world. most are probably not too interested in
your chit-chat with some other User somewhere else.
try Netmail next time or a chit-chat Echo.
this is A_THEIST Echo and we do separation of state and church and
atheist info here.
you're welcome to stay and post if you have something on-topic to say.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Re: Atheist Humour
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:26:08
--------
EID:792a 1cf07340
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E282640
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 15 Jul 94, Henry Mcgrattan was quoted as saying:
HM> I have been looking for some atheist jokes. It is unfair that all
HM> the good jokes are about theists... I haven't found any yet, so I
HM> came up with the following:
HM>
HM> Q: How many atheists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
HM>
HM> A: None. They are afraid to See the Light!
how about...
A. None. They are lit from within by reason!
[grin]
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Thomas Morton
Sub: Re: THE LOVE OF MONEY
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:27:40
--------
EID:dc8d 1cf07360
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E28269C
PID: GenMsg 4.14 [0002]
In a message dated: 13 Jul 94, Thomas Morton was quoted as saying:
TM> However, I have an open mind, and any proof you can show that the
TM> Bible is indeed infallible and inspired by your god would be most
this won't be necessary since we don't such things here. Armstrong has
just been admonished to take his stuff to HOLYSMOKE so engage him over
there.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Patricia Lange
To: all
Sub: Bible In School
Date: 17 Jul 94 00:00:02
--------
EID:1093 1cf10000
MSGID: 1:2613/111.0 2e28acc2
PID: GE 1.02+
I live in a suburb of Rochester, NY: the Town of Greece. The
Rochester area contains every religious group you can imagine and
plenty of atheists, but there are certain areas of concentration. In
"my" town, we have an abundance of Catholics and "Fundamentalists."
As an atheist, I keep alert to any attempt at religious indoctrination
in the public schools. So far I am quite satisfied that my 10-yr. old
son is getting an appropriately secular education here, despite the
leanings of the vast majority of his classmates' parents.
Others are less pleased. I haven't heard many complaints from the
Catholics (and they have their large system of Catholic schools to
turn to here if they're dissatisfied). Shortly before school let out
for the year, for example, I had a newly ordained Baptist minister
insisting to me that Satanists were proselytizing at my son's school.
I assured him I volunteered there 2 or 3 days a week and there was no
truth to this assertion. He seemed quite convinced that They were Out
There and I was just missing Them. Another group is outraged that high
school students were allowed to watch some "R" rated moves about the
VietNam war in their studies of that period of history. Actually I
agree that the teacher erred in not getting permission from the parents
before showing the film, but somehow this was turned into a "morals"
question instead of a "common sense" issue.
At our last school board election, a self-proclaimed creationist was
elected. He has asserted his desire to reintroduce "biblical values"
into the public schools.
Yesterday this was a headline in the local paper:
"Greece pupil not allowed to read Bible in school
- Boy's first amendment rights in question."
The article explains that the boy, Kenny Haller, age 7, took his Bible
to his first grade class to read to his classmates. His teacher told
him his choice was inappropriate for the class segment in question, in
which the children were to practice reading aloud to others. She said
she had no problem with him bringing the book in and reading it during
the "free reading" time.
His mother, insisting her son's rights were violated, took the issue
to the teacher and to the principal without getting satisfaction (it's
unclear what would have satisfied her). Now she has presented it to
the school board at its most recent meeting and has asked it to set a
policy for the district. Because the teacher and principal were not
present, the board did not act at the time.
One member stated "I have no problem with the young man reading his
Bible on his own time, but it depends if he was given another
directive in class, or how he did it." It's not clear from the article
what the board plans to do next. I hope it's to gather the facts.
I see this as an issue the "fundamentalists" would LOVE to blow out of
proportion. They claim kids can't pray in school (they can, of
course, as individuals and in silence). They claim they can be exposed
to all sorts of "evil" secular ideas without being allowed to use THE
tool to counteract them. If the only tool they accept is the authority
of their bible, then they're right, but it's their own fault if they want
to be so self-limiting. If they taught their kids critical reasoning
skills they'd have a more flexible and useful tool. They're incapable
of seeing that if THEIR magic book is allowed "in" as authority, others
will (should) have the right to insist theirs be given equal time.
I think the board member quoted in the article got it exactly right.
The boy has already announced he wants to be a church pastor "when he
grows up." If the facts show he read his book aloud to his classmates
with the intent to pursuade or "inform" them of the truth of its
contents, then the teacher had the duty to step in and stop him. If,
though, all he did was plan to read aloud a few verses to practice his
reading skills, she probably should have allowed it. The board should
look into what actually happened.
A rule permitting the bible to be used during free reading time or
even aloud in a neutral and secular context would be great. I think it
is even important - necessary - for the every educated person to be
familiar with the stories and the impact (positive and negative)
they've had on our history and literature. The book should be read and
discussed as literature along with other writings considered
authoritative by religions around the world. If this principle were
stated as the policy of the schools, maybe teachers would be less afraid
to use religious literature in a secular context. As I see it, the
True Christians then would have one fewer arrow in their quiverful of
supposed persecutions.
What I fear is that the issue will be used by the new, fundamentalist,
board member to foment a conflict which doesn't exist and to enshrine
a "right to read the bible aloud in school" as a freedom of religion
issue regardless of the classroom context. Pity the poor teacher who
gets caught in the middle of that. When the child starts to proselytise
during class discussion time, is the teacher allowed to let the others
ridicule him or offer other interpretations? Does she have a duty to
present all the other sides? To ignore what's going on for fear of
having some (by definition, state-sponsored) influence on the outcome?
07-17-1994
* KWQ/2 1.2e * A life? From what board can I down load that?
--- >
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From: Justiss Armstrong
To: Steve Rose
Sub: THE LOVE OF GOD
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:49:17
--------
EID:8c65 1cf1b620
I never Atheism was a group.
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From: Justiss Armstrong
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: THE LOVE OF GOD
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:50:34
--------
EID:0503 1cf1b640
Nah. I've been getting some good responses
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From: Jason Levine
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: satanism & the big a
Date: 14 Jul 94 04:41:00
--------
EID:f564 1cee2520
TK> TK> "supernatural" ... hmmmmmmmmm ... there's a lot of mystery in this
TK> TK> world - a lot of stuff i can't explain. i don't know about "psi"
TK> TK> energy. i don't know about "past lives." i -do- believe that anything
TK> TK> and everything that happens in this universe is natural, and thus
den
y
TK> TK> anything "super"natural. and i would expect that many other atheists
TK> JL> an unrealistic belief). I never mentioned stuff like psi. By
TK> JL> "supernatural", I mean "by a force which cannot be explained by
any
TK> JL> rational (scientific, if you will) laws". Like gods.
TK>i think it was Arthur C. Clarke who said,
TK>"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
It was...your statement is usually referred to as "Clarke's Third Law".
TK>given that we do not know all physical (eg, chemistry, biology, quantum
TK>mechanics) or mental (mathematics, economic, psychological, psi) laws
-
TK>rational or otherwise, much of the universe (i hope) is still left left
TK>to be explored and explained. ... still, psi or reincarnation -are-,
as you
TK>define, 'supernatural', "forces which cannot be explained by any [-current-
]
TK>rational laws."
I think you're just playing Devil's Advocate here...we agree here! :-)
See, YOU stuck that "[current]" in there...I didn't. There was no
"current" between my "rational ()" and "laws" because I wanted the
statement to encompass all laws, present AND future.
TK> TK> i think that there are many atheists who are thus consumed with
TK> TK> theism, and need to bash it for a while - maybe a long time - maybe
TK> JL> True, many atheists start off that way (FTR, I didn't), but
I
TK> JL> readily admit that I consider them "less than atheists" (and I
REALLY
TK> JL> don't mean that to sound as self-important as it probably does)
until
TK> JL> they "grow out of it" (ditto).
TK>moving away from or out of a god-based family and culture can be a traumati
c
TK>experience for a person who lived as or considered him/herself a devout
TK>believer. ftr, i felt i had to become pretty adept at biblical history
and
i
TK>errors in order to be able to justify my disbelief to family and friends.
a
n
TK>even when i was externally sure, i still needed to justify to -myself-
that
TK>was on the right road, and publically took on soap-box preachers on the
TK>university mall.
Ditto on the learning the bible...I do think that knowledge of the
inconsistencies, immoralities, et al, of the bible can be useful when
cornered by a rabid theist...but I never needed to justify it to myself.
I guess I'm lucky; my family is VERY multicultural and multireligious.
Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Atheist, Agnostic, Christian Scientist,
Presbyterian, and plenty of others...it was a good environment to grow
up in.
***
ž OLX 2.1 TD ž TSR: Trash System Randomly
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From: Jason Levine
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: Early atheism?
Date: 14 Jul 94 04:44:00
--------
EID:fe49 1cee2580
JH>-> TK>i see no problem with a person saying "fuck god" "damn god" etc.
f
JH>-> TK>they want to in order to prove to themselves that they won't be
ki
JH>-> TK>something bad happen or anything because of it. call it "beginning
JH>-> TK>a theistic startingpoint". immature - but then, haven't we all
bee
JH>->
JH>-> True, many atheists start off that way (FTR, I didn't), but
I
JH>-> readily admit that I consider them "less than atheists" (and I REALLY
JH>-> don't mean that to sound as self-important as it probably does) until
JH>-> they "grow out of it" (ditto).
JH>I never did either, and my parents were religious. They never
JH>condemned my beliefs or reason so maybe I didn't need to rebel like
JH>this where others might?
You're lucky (as was I)...too bad that many aren't. I know sooooooooooo
many people who were condemned by their families for different reasons,
including being atheists. My family is totally multireligious; we have
one of every denomination (it seems like it) in our extended family.
Jewish grandpa, Christian Scientist grandma, Catholic aunt/uncle,
alledgedly Protestant mother...all kinds.
***
ž OLX 2.1 TD ž Random answers: $1, Correct answers: $5, Dumb looks: Free
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From: Jason Levine
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: No Beliefs
Date: 14 Jul 94 04:45:00
--------
EID:bab6 1cee25a0
CB>JL> This message base does NOT exist to "spread the word of atheism"
CB>JL> or any propaganistic crap like that. This message base exists to
CB>JL> discuss encroachment onto our rights by religious groups, holes in
CB>JL> the barrier between church and state, problems with being
CB>JL> discriminated against because of one's atheism, etc.
CB>well said but leave the moderating to the Moderator.
Like I said below, I wasn't trying to. I'm sorry. I didn't think that I
was moderating, though. I was just trying to help someone understand
what this echo was about...correcting his misconception, ya know?
CB>JL> /* Did I step on the moderator's toes here? Hope not... */
CB>the effort is appreciated but misplaced.
***
ž OLX 2.1 TD ž Our number? Just dial randomly. You'll get us eventually.
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Ruby Tuesday
Sub: taxes on churches
Date: 17 Jul 94 07:02:11
--------
EID:9fcf 1cf13840
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7887e2f4
Of course religion is subsidized. It is subsidized by being allowed to
operate free of taxes.
I remain unimpressed by the fact that some church groups do good work.
For every Salvation Army there are a dozen Reverend Moons, Jimmy
Swaggarts, and corruption at the local levels of such organizations as
the Catholic Church.
I think it is important to note, taking Toronto for example, that church
groups sponsor low income housing and coops. However, many non-partisan
groups similarly sponsor such facilities. Most coops are simply groups
of people who organized around housing needs. Why foist mythology on
people who are primarily looking for a place to live.
And when you ask who am I to define "reality" I suggest that you check
the conference guidelines which decree that there is no god. So argue
with the moderator on that one.
So what _is_ your real name?
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Atheist Humour
Date: 18 Jul 94 17:58:11
--------
EID:060c 1cf28f40
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 79138bca
"you still do not have a good joke"
Fuck you. And I say this with all due respect.
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Sid Schneider
Sub: Any other Canadian Atheis
Date: 18 Jul 94 18:03:11
--------
EID:a38f 1cf29060
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 79138bcb
Hi Sid. It sounds like you are getting stressed out living in a
Christian (and a few other things) culture. A lot of us share that
experience. I once worked for a sectarian agency, in a professional
role but nonetheless exposed to constant background noise about deities.
It is like being in the ghetto and not liking ubiquitous rap music. No
one will hound you about gods here, except the few theist guerillas that
slip through the bars that the moderator keeps carefully watching.
So you are not the only atheist in Canada. Praise the lord! (excuse the
expression)
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: RCC?
Date: 18 Jul 94 18:08:11
--------
EID:1b7c 1cf29100
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 79138bcc
Thanks for that clarification. I didn't realize that the Queen was only
the head of the Church of England.
It looks like Prince Charles is toying with the idea of separating his
job as King from his religious duties. He feels that he should relate
equally to all religions, and this could mean shedding the state
religion.
Of course I have about as much respect for monarchs as I do for deities.
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Jason Levine
Sub: satanism & the big a
Date: 18 Jul 94 18:15:11
--------
EID:2bb5 1cf291e0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 79138bcd
I have not had the experience you report, that it can be useful to have
a knowledge of the Bible and related texts when engaging in a debate
with a Christian or other theist. I got tired of arguing with them
years ago and I don't think I ever talked one of them out of their
superstitious stance.
If they do not politely agree to disagree I just have to tell them I
don't buy either Jesus or the Easter Bunny and to stay away from me with
that shit. That hasn't failed so far.
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From: Chris Ferree
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:34:00
--------
EID:79b6 1cf1b440
MSGID: 1:231/285 86E343AF
FR>As much as I dislike you, I would have to tend to agree.
We can't figure out why. ;>
FR>Were I to make a bid at getting 501(c)3 tax status for my church, I highly
FR>suspect that I would be denied often. Were I to eventually acquire such
s
FR>(or in the off-chance that it was granted without a fight) I could expect
FR>audited every year... simply because my god is a Goat.
Darn it, Fred! I think they're on to you. However, worshipping a goat
isn't that bizarre... Many religions worship different animals. It's
the STAR part of STAR GOAT that gets 'em peeved. ;>
FR>governmental agenices which _do_ decide what is a valid church
Examples?
FR>Could I, for instance
FR>a public park area rented for a token dollar a day like some churches
and
FR>organizations? I highly suspect that I could not. Were I to claim to
be
FR>Christanic brand name, I would expect it to be fairly easy.
Of course. I'll look for his (Chris Baker's) response.
in Them,
csf
... My opponent has been observed masticating in public!
* [ tag ] *
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From: Ian Hebert
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Athiests Kill To˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙
Date: 16 Jul 94 11:26:11
--------
EID:30c1 1cf05b40
MSGID: 1:2401/114@fidonet.org 788083a4
HM> Just trying to get people accurately to accept atheism into their hearts
HM> as their personal savior. :-)
No, no, no! You should be trying to get people to accept Star Goat's
onlybegoatten son, Billy as their personal saviour!
Ian Hebert
London, Ontario, Canada Fido: 1:2401/114
Internet: ian.hebert@homebase.com PGP Key: 1024 / 077A2F7F 1993/02/11
PGP Key Fingerprint: A2 15 DE 22 DA FE D4 DC 0F 17 43 24 1F F2 1E 7B
* RM 1.3 * Eval Day 148 * "That's a Satanic lie: The Bible was written
in E
nglish."
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From: Ian Hebert
To: Tom Breuer
Sub: God on money
Date: 16 Jul 94 11:42:11
--------
EID:2406 1cf05d40
MSGID: 1:2401/114@fidonet.org 788083a5
TB>.... but it was given more than cursory attention, and the
TB> publicity that was generated was of the "atheists are trying to
TB> persecute the rest of us" variety. All I'm saying is that going
TB> to a lot of effort to get the motto off the money is just a
TB> little anal retentive, and makes atheists look silly. Methinks
TB> there are better things to spend our resources on.
Still, you have to admit, given the upcoming re-design of U.S. currency,
this is the best possible time to do this. I believe that notes with a
new design will be in circulation within the next 2-3 years.
If this were not the case, if the currency were not already being
re-designed, then trying to force the issue would be a real waste of
money. But given that the process is already underway, why not take
advantage of it?
Ian Hebert
London, Ontario, Canada Fido: 1:2401/114
Internet: ian.hebert@homebase.com PGP Key: 1024 / 077A2F7F 1993/02/11
PGP Key Fingerprint: A2 15 DE 22 DA FE D4 DC 0F 17 43 24 1F F2 1E 7B
* RM 1.3 * Eval Day 148 * ... Fundy Logic: Lie 1 + Lie 2 + Lie 3 = "God's
T
ruth"
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
* Origin: Home Base BBS, St. Thomas, Ontario (1:2401/114)
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--------
From: Brian Kolacy
To: All
Sub: Pope on a rope
Date: 18 Jul 94 23:01:11
--------
EID:a51d 1cf2b820
MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 798239d5
Hail!
I was just wondering if anyone out there was going to the pope
picket in the fall (sponsored by AAI of course!:)
Oh, and for those of you who care, AAOS has switched their telephone
lines...line 1 is now 2400, and 2&3 are 14.4...check tagline for the new
number:)
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
---
* CmpQwk 1.40m #9044 * Call American Atheists Online Services! (512) 302-0246
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
* Origin: MercOpus * 10 Lines/12 GB/1500 Confs * 813-321-0734 (1:3603/20)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Mitchell Peabody
Sub: Re: Re: The Love Of God
Date: 18 Jul 94 19:33:22
--------
EID:004b 1cf29c20
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2B1142
PID: GenMsg 4.15 [0002]
In a message dated: 17 Jul 94, Mitchell Peabody was quoted as saying:
MP> CB> take him over to HOLYSMOKE for such debate. it is off-topic
MP> Sorry... just participating in the thread... :)
HOLYSMOKE enjoys this kind of debate. it's just circular noise here.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
* Origin: Rights On!-A_THEIST Echo Mod/Host-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Re: Atheist Humour
Date: 18 Jul 94 19:35:03
--------
EID:4122 1cf29c60
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2B11A7
PID: GenMsg 4.15 [0002]
In a message dated: 17 Jul 94, David Macdonald was quoted as saying:
DM> You still do not have a good joke.
Tom Kunesh's was pretty funny. One. period. [grin]
it was the perfect response.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
* Origin: Rights On!-A_THEIST Echo Mod/Host-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: Brett Arroyo
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: Re: the love of God
Date: 19 Jul 94 12:07:21
--------
EID:a0ca 1cf360e0
MSGID: 1:141/510@fido.org 2e2c165c
PID: CNet 3.0
On Mon 11-Jul-1994 4:33p, Justiss Armstrong said to Jeff Vineburg:
JA> And you know this is fiction becuase? You know for a fact that the
Bible
JA> is fiction? If so I would like to see some proof.
JA> " There is no such thing as Atheism, Ignorance yes, Atheism no. "
JA> Justiss
JA> --- FLAME v1.1
JA> * Origin: Techtalk BBS, Cocoa, FL 407-635-8833 (1:374/1)
Maybe not fiction, but it sure has been edited alot, and translated too
many t
imes.... I know a person who translated the aramaic bible into english (one
of
the original languages it was written in), you'd be surprised how much of
the
male/female stuff has been changed in the translation to be male only.
0==]>>>>>>>>>>> Avenger
--- CNet/3
* Origin: Infinities Edge Amiga/IBM/Mac (1:141/510)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Atheist Humour
Date: 23 Jul 94 20:33:58
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6613e05c
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E282640
PID: FM 2.02
HM> Q: How many atheists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
HM> A: None. They are afraid to See the Light!
cb> A. None. They are lit from within by reason!
Even better. Or, "None. They see by the light of reason."
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Patricia Lange
Sub: Bible In School
Date: 23 Jul 94 20:44:05
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6613e05d
REPLY: 1:2613/111.0 2e28acc2
PID: FM 2.02
pl> turn to here if they're dissatisfied). Shortly before school
pl> let out for the year, for example, I had a newly ordained
pl> Baptist minister insisting to me that Satanists were
pl> proselytizing at my son's school.
This belief seems to be wide-spread yet slowing in popularity. And, seriously
, had he told me this, I would have asked him to tell me all about it the
next
day -- after buying a tape recorder -- and then I would tape it all. Then
I w
ould take the tape to the school and try my best to have the school put
a stop
to it through a public retraction or, failing that, law suit.
The State of California has spent a great deal of money on researching claims
of 'satanism' and 'occult crime.' They have launched two research papers
as a
direct result of religious zealots making outrageous claims.
None of them were valid; not a one. The reports delve greatly into the
actual
beliefs of various religions that Christian zealots want to call 'occult'
or
'satanic.' Not a single member of any of them were ever arrested for anything
unusual or more serious than traffic violations.
pl> At our last school board election, a self-proclaimed creationist was
pl> elected. He has asserted his desire to reintroduce "biblical values"
pl> into the public schools.
Amazing. "Biblical values."
The Amorites at Hesbon, Israel "took all these cities". Moses sums
up the slaughter: "We... utterly destroyed the men and the women
and the little ones." Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34
How's that for 'biblical values?' Did anyone tell this individual that
teachi
ng religion in public schools is contrary to the Constitution of the United
St
ates?
pl> One member stated "I have no problem with the young man reading his
pl> Bible on his own time, but it depends if he was given another
pl> directive in class, or how he did it." It's not clear from the article
pl> what the board plans to do next. I hope it's to gather the facts.
I suspect that the boy's parents don't care about the rights of others.
It so
unds like the boy is being made a pawn and will be the one to suffer the
most
abuse.
pl> A rule permitting the bible to be used during free reading time or
pl> even aloud in a neutral and secular context would be great.
I think it would be too. It's mythology, after all, and mythology can be
fun.
pl> * KWQ/2 1.2e * A life? From what board can I down load that?
pl> * Origin: Logan's Run, home of the LOGNLIST (1:2613/111)
Welcome aboard. I hope you stick around to tell us what happens.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: taxes on churches
Date: 23 Jul 94 20:47:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6613e05e
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7887e2f4
PID: FM 2.02
hm> Of course religion is subsidized. It is subsidized
hm> by being allowed to operate free of taxes.
I think that they still must pay taxes in some areas. Property, as I recall,
is subsidized greatly and not allowed to be entirely untaxed. I'm sure
that i
f I'm mistaken, someone will point it ouy.
hm> I remain unimpressed by the fact that some church groups do good work.
hm> For every Salvation Army there are a dozen Reverend Moons, Jimmy
hm> Swaggarts, and corruption at the local levels of such organizations
as
hm> the Catholic Church.
You only touched upon some of the _minor_ offenders. David Duke, Pat Robertso
n and a host of other Religious Reight hate groups use their tax free money
to
organize violations of the Constitutions.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Chris Ferree
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 23 Jul 94 21:16:10
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6613e05f
REPLY: 1:231/285 86E343AF
PID: FM 2.02
FR> As much as I dislike you, I would have to tend to agree.
cf> We can't figure out why. ;>
You know, I must admit. Fred is an asshole. No doubt. }:-}
FR> Were I to make a bid at getting 501(c)3 tax status for my
FR> church, I highly suspect that I would be denied often. Were
FR> I to eventually acquire such [subsidy] (or in the off-chance
FR> that it was granted without a fight) I could expect audited
FR> every year... simply because my god is a Goat.
cf> Darn it, Fred! I think they're on to you. However, worshipping a goat
cf> isn't that bizarre... Many religions worship different animals. It's
cf> the STAR part of STAR GOAT that gets 'em peeved. ;>
I'm not so sure. I see that the 'Scientologists' got their tax subsidy
and th
e Institute for Creation Research still enjoyes theirs... if they can spout
t
heir loony tunes and still convince the right people, I am certain that,
with
a little effort, I could.
FR> governmental agenices which _do_ decide what is a valid church
cf> Examples?
I'm thinking of the IRS. Also, I'm note sure yet I think it's possible
that c
hurches get a postal break. No, that's a guess on my part only.
cf> ... My opponent has been observed masticating in public!
Your chief opponent was Diogenes? }:-}
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Brian Kolacy
Sub: Pope on a rope
Date: 23 Jul 94 21:19:09
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6613e060
REPLY: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 798239d5
PID: FM 2.02
bk> I was just wondering if anyone out there was going to the pope
bk> picket in the fall (sponsored by AAI of course!:)
Where is the child molester scheduled to appear?
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: No Beliefs
Date: 17 Jul 94 18:42:44
--------
EID:5069 1cf19540
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA4F2C24
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
tk> really?! are you suggesting that the word "atheist" - the very name
of
tk> this Fido echo,
JH> BBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT Wrong. The name of this echo is A_THEIST, not
JH> ATHEIST (ATHEIST is a completely separate echo, check it out).
hmmmmmmmmm ... i've looked at our backboned echoes for quite some time,
and all i can find in that orthographic area are ...
FIDO\ASIAN_LINK International chat echo - Asia/North America/Europ
FIDO\ASKACOP Ask Law enforcement professionals about their
work
FIDO\ASKACOP2 ASK A COP
FIDO\ASK_A_NURSE Ask nurses and others about your health concerns.
FIDO\ASL American Sign Language Echo
FIDO\ASP ASP (Association of Shareware Professionals)
FIDO\AT&T AT&T PC Support Conference
FIDO\ATARI Atari 8-bit computers topic
FIDO\ATARI_ST Atari ST Echo
FIDO\AUDIO Int'l Fidonet AUDIO Echo
FIDO\AUTOMOTIVE Automotive
FIDO\AUTORACE AUTORACE ECHO
FIDO\AVIATION INTERNATIONAL AVIATION ECHO
FIDO\AVICULTURE Captive Propagation of Birds
FIDO\A_CAD International AutoCAD/CAD Conference
FIDO\A_THEIST A_Theism Education and Enlightenment Echo
FIDO\BABYLON5 Babylon 5 Discussions.
FIDO\BAMA Odyssey Fringe Science Research Echo
FIDO\BARDROOM BardRoom Authors' and Poets' virtual Get-Together
FIDO\BASIC7 PDS 7.x and VB/DOS Discussions
FIDO\BATPOWER Batch Languages Programming
nothin' there 'bout no ATHEIST ... pray tell - who's the moderator and what's
their node address? is the ATHEIST echo distributed across North America
? ..
. ?
JH> This echo is to discuss matters of separation of church and state.
i, too, could set up an echo called C_HRISTIAN and say that its purpose
is to
discuss issues re. separation of church & state.
JH> The little "_" is small, but important. It constantly amazes that
JH> this little play on words confuses so many people, yourself included.
flame on, eh? got it. ...
if it amazes you, i suggest your amazement level is set too low.
without the specific redefinition of the echo in contradistinction to the
common interpretation of the echo's name itself, and enforcement of that
const
ricted redefinition, there would be no confusion, no amazement,
and just straight talk about atheism in all of its manifestations.
to focus on such a minute aspect of the general theme by inserting
a "little "_"" indicates to me that small minds are at work to make
a large topic area small enough so their petty minds can adequately
handle it. be amazed, bubba: i am neither confused nor amazed -
-except- at the atheists who feel they need to narrow their attention span
to such a narrow band of the incredibly vast atheist panorama.
tk> has "nothing to do with belief or disbelief"?!
JH> No, nothing at all, separation has absolutely nothing to do with
JH> belief or disbelief. Separation is supported by believers also, it
JH> stops the government interfering in their religion just as much as it
JH> stops religion interfering in government. Some religiously minded
JH> people happen to agree that this is a desirable thing.
then why not name the echo S_EPARATION CHURCH&STATE ?
surely you can appreciate the desire - on the behalf of the consumer, that
is
-
for Truth in Advertising, neh?
and surely you understand that probably 90% of all atheists believe that
a pri
mary common definition of "atheism" incorporates in its first statement
an ass
ertion about "belief or disbelief," neh? and that separation of church &
state
is a concern of many others (as you state above) who are -not- atheists,
neh?
if all this is true, then why not name the echo whose primary concern is
Separ
ation of Church & State "S_EPARATION" ?
why A_THEIST?
... i'll tell you why - because nobody (or very few) would think of, muchless
read, a S_EPARATION CHURCH&STATE echo. "ATHEIST" or the little pun "A_THEIST"
is a natural for those looking to discuss the other side of THEISM.
... it's also a political ploy to assume general leadership for a general
them
e by calling yourself by that theme's name but only applying yourself to
worka
ble narrow focus.
how 'bout some truth in advertising from you guys anyway?
tk> ... how curious ...
JH> No, not at all. What is curious is that an obviously intelligent
JH> person such as yourself needs to have this subtle distinction pointed
JH> out to them so many times.
flattery gets you some points, but they're lost in lack of analysis. ;)
there is no "subtle" distinction here. it's a flagrant, overt lie, and
i contest it. you guys say the A_THEIST echo is (by definition - aka divine
fi
at) an echo that should -only- concern itself with one narrow aspect of
atheis
t concerns. subtle my ass. it's overt kowtowing to the ideological position
of
Mad Madalyn's American Atheists, Inc.'s political agenda. ... as sure as
woul
d defining and describing the C_ATHOLIC echo as being focused solely and
exclu
sively on abortion.
you guys got your own political agenda that is one small subset of ATHEISM
- r
egardless of how you want to play with the orthography.
i have no problem with ya'll's myopia, but i wish you'd learn to appreciate
th
ose others of us with a larger view.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: ... think radically, act logically ... (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: A_THEIST Echo Guidelines - regular repost
Date: 17 Jul 94 18:52:23
--------
EID:45d5 1cf19680
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA4F2E67
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
CB> a-theism = free of religion.
CB> A_THEIST
as Jackson would say, "subtle. very subtle."
CB> Echo Purpose:
CB> 1. Stimulate freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious
CB> dogmas and practices; 2. Collect and disseminate information on all
CB> religions and their histories; 3. Advocate and labor for the complete
CB> and absolute separation of church and State; 4. Advocate and labor
CB> for a thoroughly secular system of education available to all; 5.
CB> Encourage development and acceptance of a human ethical system
CB> stressing the responsibility of individuals to society; 6. Develop
CB> and propagate a social philosophy in which man/woman is the central
CB> figure who alone must be the strength of humanity; 7. Promote the
CB> study of arts and sciences for the enrichment of human life.
CB> "Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly
CB> accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style
CB> and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific
CB> method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions and creeds." American
CB> Atheists, Inc.
gosh. i was ready to say unpleasant things, but with just a cursory glance
(my pre-vacation time is quickly running out!), i'd say these are dang good
purposes!
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: ... think radically, act logically ... (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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--------
From: tom kunesh
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:00:51
--------
EID:2dc2 1cf19800
MSGID: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA4F3063
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #000372
from the Industrial Religion Garage ...
tk> i also just found about the "decisions" of the Internal Revenue
tk> Service in the '70s to deny tax exemptions to segregated Christian
tk> academies. if this is true, it becomes another demonstration of the
tk> IRS as enforcer of US national policy. and so much for the separation
tk> of church and state.
FR> As much as I dislike you, I would have to tend to agree.
frankly, i can't remember if the dislike is mutual or not. ;)
regardless of style or tack, i do appreciate a person who can see
what's correct in an opponent's discussion.
but then, maybe this is just a fluke, eh? ;)
FR> Were I to make a bid at getting 501(c)3 tax status for my church, I
FR> highly suspect that I would be denied often. Were I to eventually
FR> acquire such status (or in the off-chance that it was granted without
FR> a fight) I could expect to be audited every year... simply because
my
FR> god is a Goat.
i'd say not too far away from Santeria - and they're protected.
or a revitalization of an old Canaanite cousin to the god of the Golden
Calf.
of heck, just say you're egyptian ... then you can have minority status,
too!
FR> I should like to see Christopher respond. Like it or not, there are
FR> governmental agenices which _do_ decide what is a valid church and
FR> what is not and there are financial incentives in the decision. Could
FR> I, for instance, get a public park area rented for a token dollar a
FR> day like some churches and organizations? I highly suspect that I
FR> could not. Were I to claim to be a Christanic brand name, I would
FR> expect it to be fairly easy.
i look forward to him breaking his vow of silence on this matter.
;>
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: ... think radically, act logically ... (1:362/122.29@fidonet)
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--------
From: John
To: Langston Goldfinch
Sub: Re: ATHIESTS KILL TOO
Date: 19 Jul 94 22:35:23
--------
EID:48a2 1cf3b460
You dunb a** !I dispise you!You ought to know better than to hate God.
He has a purpose for everything he does.Yyou said that you didn't like things
that he does,we'll how about when he saves lives,and works miracles
and answers prayers.Man,you're headed down the wrong road.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: The Communique' BBS - Nashville,TN (615)885-9792 (1:116/120)
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--------
From: John
To: Jon Persky
Sub: Re: TEEN ATHIESTS
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:04:18
--------
EID:edd0 1cf3b880
Hey you said some pretty strong stuff.But anyway,nature was descended from
one
god, and that god is God. Also, rocks aren't trees and water isn't the wind
t
hey are different.People are a part of nature, so then couldn't you say
that p
eole,descended from one (G)od are different.Just because God is you're
creato
r doesn't mean that you are the same, it means you have one more thing in
comm
on.
And I agree with you .I think athieism is an atolescent phase, but it is
a bad
one.
One more thing. Have you read the Bible before?If you haven't, then do because
if you're going to put something down, it helps to accually know hard core
th
ings about it. I have read things about varrious religions and find Chritianit
y to be the best and the most fulfilling.
type back,
John (no last name upon request)
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: The Communique' BBS - Nashville,TN (615)885-9792 (1:116/120)
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--------
From: Robert Pappas
To: All
Sub: taxation of the church
Date: 21 Jul 94 11:35:41
--------
EID:2da3 1cf55c60
MSGID: 1:374/147 2e2e9cec
PID: Telegard 2.7
when the day comes that the churches of this country pay taxes then maybe
they
will have a say in government policy. until then they can just keep their
adv
ise to their individual members and stay out of policy debates. if they
wish t
o input their collective voices then they can pay for implementation
---
* Origin: PipeLine!*Purely Awesome Palm Bay Fl 407-728-7386 (1:374/147)
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--------
From: The Mad Doctor
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: RE: Atheist Humour
Date: 18 Jul 94 05:32:00
--------
EID:9dfe 1cf22c00
Via SLMAIL v3.5B (#1508)
>Any other atheist jokes...?
>
One of my taglines goes: "Atheist problem #6: No one to call out during
sex. ¨
"
-----
Define the Universe. Give two examples.
* SearchLight QWK Version 1.00 * #1508 #Unregistered!#
--- SLMAIL v3.5B (#1508)
* Origin: CrossRoads BBS * Maiden, NC (704)428-9171 (1:3666/113)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Mitchell Peabody
Sub: Re: Re: The Love Of God
Date: 21 Jul 94 23:03:54
--------
EID:004b 1cf5b860
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2F371A
PID: GenMsg 4.15 [0002]
In a message dated: 20 Jul 94, Mitchell Peabody was quoted as saying:
MP> Yes, but in a second message you said we discuss the separation of
MP> Church, State, and Atheist... wouldn't this then be ON topic?
those ARE the topics. [grin]
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
* Origin: Rights On!-A_THEIST Echo Mod/Host-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Todd Rourke
Sub: Re: Winterisms
Date: 21 Jul 94 23:04:40
--------
EID:83e4 1cf5b880
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2F3748
PID: GenMsg 4.15 [0002]
In a message dated: 20 Jul 94, Todd Rourke was quoted as saying:
TR> so forth check out the FIDONEWS 1129. It seems our buddy from the
TR> Christian Right (Steve Winter) has made a broad call to arms to all
TR> 'Christians' to hack, upload viruses, crash, and otherwise destroy
TR> any 'Pagan' or 'New Age' online systems. At first glance I really
it is a fraud.
even Winter isn't that dumb.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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From: Justiss Armstrong
To: David Macdonald
Sub: THE LOVE OF GOD
Date: 21 Jul 94 09:43:59
--------
EID:e0e2 1cf54d60
Only if you use correct punctuation.
--- FLAME v1.1
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From: Langston Goldfinch
To: John
Sub: ATHIESTS KILL TOO
Date: 22 Jul 94 10:09:50
--------
EID:2f65 1cf65120
MSGID: 1:396/17 2e2f9b4c
PID: GED386 G0615 1048
Hello John!
19 Jul 94 22:35, John wrote to Langston Goldfinch:
J> You dunb a** !I dispise you!You ought to know better than to hate
J> God. He has a purpose for everything he does.Yyou said that you
He made you, enough bad work for anyone. On the other hand I find you entertai
ning, so maybe I don't hate HIM as much as I though.
Thanks
---
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From: David Macdonald
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: Atheist Humour
Date: 21 Jul 94 14:33:19
--------
EID:8a2e 1cf57420
MSGID: 1:232/310 100b90bb
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Re: Atheist Humour
I agree, tom k.'s response was better than my pedestrian reply--but did
he receive an offer of sexual congress because of it as I did?
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: Dan Cook
To: Todd Rourke
Sub: Winterisms
Date: 22 Jul 94 18:11:40
--------
EID:f856 1cf69160
MSGID: 1:202/344.0 2e306e4c
REPLY: 1:323/110 2e2df468
TR> Christian Right (Steve Winter) has made a broad call to arms to all
Steve could use a little prison time for conspiracy to commit hate crimes.
Ho
w do people like Steve Winter get filled with so much hate? Was it brain
dama
ge, child abuse, or both? In any case, Steve is a shining example of why
I'm
so very glad our forefathers here in the US had the sense to mandate separatio
n of church and state.
- Dan
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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From: Dan Cook
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: Winterisms
Date: 22 Jul 94 18:29:08
--------
EID:6524 1cf693a0
MSGID: 1:202/344.0 2e307264
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E2F3748
CB> it is a fraud.
CB> even Winter isn't that dumb.
I respectfully disagree. It's debatable wether or not Steve is that dumb.
I
probably should have realized the fraud though. The real Steve doesn't
have a
ny sense of satire.
- Dan
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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From: Jackson Harding
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: RCC?
Date: 22 Jul 94 18:04:00
--------
EID:72cc 1cf69080
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e300a90
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 79138bcc
PID: GED G0214 11OZ1
Hello Henry!
In a msg of Monday July 18 1994, Henry Mcgrattan was overheard speaking
to Jac
kson Harding:
HM> It looks like Prince Charles is toying with the idea of separating his
HM> job as King from his religious duties. He feels that he should relate
HM> equally to all religions, and this could mean shedding the state
HM> religion.
HM> Of course I have about as much respect for monarchs as I do for deities.
In fact Prince Charles' desire to disestablish the church has a not so hidden
hidden agenda. He has made it abundantly clear he intends to ascend to
the th
rone when HM dies. If he is to divorce he can *possibly* still ascend,
but ne
ver remarry. If the Church is disestablished he concievably would then
be fre
e to remarry. There has been press speculation that Camilla Parker-Bowles
is
making moves to divorce her husband, ironically on the grounds of *his*
allege
d infidelity (after hers has been broadcast and published worldwide). He
also
faces the prospect of the Princess of Wales possibly converting to Catholocis
m, as has the Duchess of Kent recently. The Settlement Act prohibits a
Cathol
ic, or *the spouse of a Catholic* from taking the throne. In all probability
the Settlement Act will be repealed if the church is
disestablished, removing such a threat to Charles.
Interestingly the Australian Constitution prohibits a religious based test
bei
ng applied to any holder of an office under the Commonwealth, presumably
that
also applies to the position of King of the Commonwealth of Australia (para
11
6). If moves were made in England to prevent Charles from becoming King
they
are obviously religiously based (either the Settlement Act or the simple
fact
the Defender of the Faith cannot be seen to have been divorced) and so unconst
itutional here in Australia. This is then in conflict with clause 3 of
the co
vering clauses of the UK act establishing the Australian Constitution which
ve
sts the sovereignty of Australia in the soveriegnty of the United Kingdom
in p
erpetuity. He could concievably remain King of Australia while being unable
t
o be King of England (he could also remain King of Scotland and King of
just a
bout everywhere else Her Majesty is currently Queen of). An interesting
study
of what could happen to the government of a supposed democracy when religion
gets involved. Just imagine the court cases :-(
Regards,
Jackson
--- FMail/386 0.98a+
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From: Christopher Baker
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Re: Re: Atheist Humour
Date: 22 Jul 94 16:39:26
--------
EID:4122 1cf684e0
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E302E7E
PID: GenMsg 4.15 [0002]
In a message dated: 21 Jul 94, David Macdonald was quoted as saying:
DM> I agree, tom k.'s response was better than my pedestrian
DM> reply--but did he receive an offer of sexual congress because of it
DM> as I did?
not that i noticed. we frown on personal attacks here.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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From: David Rice
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Atheist Humour
Date: 23 Jul 94 20:50:62
--------
EID:13df 1cf7a640
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
HM> Q: How many atheists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
HM> A: None. They are afraid to See the Light!
Huh? I don't get it.
CB> A. None. They are lit from within by reason!
A. None: we know there's nothing in the dark to be afraid of.
-.-
"We must either defeat militant homosexuality or it will
defeat us." -- Congressman William Dannemeyer, June 29 1989
--- ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
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From: David Rice
To: Jennie Hazen
Sub: The Money God
Date: 23 Jul 94 20:51:28
--------
EID:b436 1cf7a660
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
with: Mitchell Peabody
>>JH> Yet only yesterday I read an editorial about how we
>>JH> should have a less warlike national anthem, which adduced
>>JH> the "In God We Trust" [...]
>MP> Geez... that's absolute BULL! That song stands for what
>MP> made this na and it should stay the same.
JH> I agree. The point was how the god bits on money and in the
JH> pledge are not harmless little anachronisms; which is what
JH> someone else was trying to say.
I wonder why no one asked my opinion. :-)
Claiming that America's motto is "In god we trust" seems very
evil to me. Never mind the fact that America did so out of
fear, hatred, and ignorance (i.e. "fighting" the Communist
boogieman): putting our trust anywhere other than OUR OWN
tallents, abilities, diversity, strengths, stubbornness and
old-fashion Yanky know-how (everything that MADE America the
great nation is USED TO BE), is to utterly and completely
abdicate everything we have achieved in the past.
Worse still, it relinquishes all responsibility for FUTURE
accomplishments. "God will provide." The squalid, the poor, the
disenfranchised--- they all wait for god to fulfill them
(instead of removing for THEMSELVES the obstacles that prevent
them from achieving their own goals), and they resent and envy
those who work towards, and achieve, their goals. This envy and
resentment turns into gang violence, crime, riots--- any way to
strike out as those better off and those accomplished.
The motto "In god we trust" is the motto for a DISEASE that
slowly, relentlessly erodes and subverts our society. We must
not place trust in an imaginary, ULTIMATELY BASELESS HOPE.
Therefore, the new American motto MUST be "In ourselves we
trust!"
That's my opinion: ought to be yours!
-.-
"We must either defeat militant homosexuality or it will
defeat us." -- Congressman William Dannemeyer, June 29 1989
--- ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
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--------
From: Jason Levine
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: satanism & the big a
Date: 22 Jul 94 20:46:00
--------
EID:6c03 1cf6a5c0
HM>I have not had the experience you report, that it can be useful to have
HM>a knowledge of the Bible and related texts when engaging in a debate
HM>with a Christian or other theist. I got tired of arguing with them
HM>years ago and I don't think I ever talked one of them out of their
HM>superstitious stance.
True, it's useless to try to talk them out of their stance. But it is
satisfying to point out all the inconsistencies, illogic points, and
immoralities in their book...even if they DO always end the discussion
with, "Well, I can see that I can't get through to you. May God have
pity on you." and then walk away...
HM>If they do not politely agree to disagree I just have to tell them I
HM>don't buy either Jesus or the Easter Bunny and to stay away from me with
HM>that shit. That hasn't failed so far.
Sometimes it does get old...I only get into it when I'm in the
mood for a discussion/debate/argument. It's a true standoff...no amount
of logic can change their minds. Religion IS an illogical subject, after
all. If their gods told them that radishes were extensions of Satan's
influence in our world, you'd see 'em boycotting the stores the next
day...
***
ž OLX 2.1 TD ž Never test for an error you don't know how to handle.
--- TriToss (tm) 1.02 - (Unregistered)
* Origin: Barter Town BBS*Pinellas Park, FL*(813)-545-1492 (1:3603/280)
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From: Marshall Shapiro
To: John
Sub: Re: ATHIESTS KILL TOO
Date: 22 Jul 94 23:44:11
--------
EID:bca4 1cf6bd80
MSGID: 1:229/36@fidonet.org 7b820404
JN*You dunb a** !I dispise you!You ought to know better than to hate God.
*He has a purpose for everything he does.Yyou said that you didn't like
thin
gs
*that he does,we'll how about when he saves lives,and works miracles
*and answers prayers.Man,you're headed down the wrong road.
Yup, I've noticed his good works in Rwanda, saving millions of lives.
All those corpses are just atheist propaganda. There are really only
ten preserved dead bodies (maybe twelve) and the atheists just keep
using them over and over again for the TV cameras. Then they stuff
them in a kosher pickle barrel to presever them until next time. They
did the same thing in WW-II and in Belfast.
,\\
* 1st 1.01 #1024 * Faith: a lie elevated by the ignorant to a super-truth.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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From: Marshall Shapiro
To: Marylou Jenkins
Sub: question
Date: 22 Jul 94 23:47:11
--------
EID:9585 1cf6bde0
MSGID: 1:229/36@fidonet.org 7b820406
MJ*I do not as a rational thinking person believe (think, understand accept)
t
he
*notion that there is any such "thing" (in the widdest possible meaning
of t
hat
*word) as "god" ( a god, godlike, etc.) There is "nobody" "out there" in
any
*objective physical meaning of those words.
MJ*Yet at the same time I can speak of "god" (or to, about, etc.) with emotion
al
*reaslity. It would be similar as the meaning I have with "Nany" (my now
dea
d
*grandmother)- She no longer exists in any reality sense of the word, yet
wh
e
*definitely has meaning to me and her "presence" in a psychological reality.
She
*is "real" to me while not existing.
Everybody needs, or wants, some kind of teddy bear. Linus has a
blanket. Some people talk to dead relatives. It's understandable.
The only problem with the "god" concept is that it is not restricted
to a personal "ear" but becomes part of a larger entity called
religion and carries with it an awful lot of baggage.
,\\
* 1st 1.01 #1024 * Atheists' creed: we are punished BY our sins, not FOR
them
.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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From: Marshall Shapiro
To: John
Sub: Re: TEEN ATHIESTS
Date: 22 Jul 94 23:49:11
--------
EID:4a29 1cf6be20
MSGID: 1:229/36@fidonet.org 7b820408
JN*One more thing. Have you read the Bible before?If you haven't, then do
beca
use
*if you're going to put something down, it helps to accually know hard core
*things about it. I have read things about varrious religions and find
*Chritianity to be the best and the most fulfilling.
*type back,
How come assholes like to remain anonymous?
,\\
* 1st 1.01 #1024 * Faith: a lie elevated by the ignorant to a super-truth.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
* Origin: Westonia BBS Weston, Ontario, Canada (416)241-1981 (1:229/36)
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From: Henry Mcgrattan
To: Tom Kunesh
Sub: No Beliefs
Date: 22 Jul 94 07:54:11
--------
EID:ffb5 1cf63ec0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7b90d1ee
On my home board, CRS in Toronto, there are four 'atheist' echoes
available. This is one.
Conferences A2 and A3 have little traffic. A4 is infested with fundies
harrassing the atheists. I'd say more than half of the messages take
the position that a poster is wrong "because the bible tells us so."
In that light this A_theism echo is refreshing. If you find it
restrictive you could easily begin a new conference with a slightly
different theme (this is not an insult; I'd show up to read it :-)
I would like a little more flexibility in discussing the meaning of
atheism. Although, unlike you, I do not see it as a rich tapestry of
belief. I see gods as variants of the Easter Bunny and such; this kind
of atheism is not built on complex philosophical thinking.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
* Origin: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario (1:229/15)
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From: Jon Persky
To: John
Sub: Re: TEEN ATHIESTS
Date: 22 Jul 94 21:30:40
--------
EID:1d63 1cf6abc0
MSGID: 1:141/256.0 2e3072c0
J> Hey you said some pretty strong stuff.But anyway,nature
J> was descended from one god, and that god is God. Also,
J> rocks aren't trees and water isn't the wind they are
J> different.People are a part of nature, so then couldn't
J> you say that peole,descended from one (G)od are
J> different.Just because God is you're creator doesn't
J> mean that you are the same, it means you have one more
J> thing in common.
Umm.. what are you talking about? I don't believe in God. You're sort of
sayin
g that I said the opposite of what I said.
J> And I agree with you .I think athieism is an atolescent
J> phase, but it is a bad one.
What?? I said exactly the opposite.. are you ok?
J> One more thing. Have you read the Bible before?If you
J> haven't, then do because if you're going to put
If I want to read mythology, "The Odyssey" by Homer is far more entertaining
t
han the bible.
J> something down, it helps to accually know hard core
J> things about it. I have read things about varrious
J> religions and find Chritianity to be the best and the
J> most fulfilling.
J> type back,
J> John (no last name upon request)
I dunno what time of the night it was when you read my message, but you
misquo
ted everything I said. Before the moderator yells at you for "doing god[s],"
p
lease re-read my original message.
Thanx..
Jon :)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Ryan Simpson
To: All
Sub: My, Myself, and No God
Date: 23 Jul 94 00:37:28
--------
EID:e7b9 1cf704a0
Not too long ago, I just finished what was about 3+ years of depression,
anxiety, family troubles, and other things..... See originally in life,
I was
Episcopalian. Then Agnostic. After my depression, and many hardships in
my
life, I decided that for me, there just isn't a supreme being. Yes I beleive
there are forces that control me, but it's more of a psycological thing.
(I
have superstitions.....) The problem I have are the people who ask me "why?".
It's not something that's easy to explain. No. I'm not atheist because I
am
rebelling, want to be cool, or freak out my parents. I could care less about
my parent's beleifs. I don't let them control my feelings..... People ALWAYS
ask me if I'm Agnostic. As if I do not know my own beleifs. I guess others
think that I don't know the difference between all the terms. I don't know
everything, but I know what I don't beleive, and do beleive. Can anyone
relate
to what I'm trying to say?
Duke De Galactia (SysOp, LCDS)
Ryan Simpson
--- Renegade v12-25 Exp
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From: Todd Rourke
To: Thomas Morton
Sub: test
Date: 23 Jul 94 16:31:37
--------
EID:89ad 1cf783e0
MSGID: 1:323/110 2e31e7dd
PID: TeleMail 1.51
TM> HEY! Don't I see you in ENOUGH nets?!? *:-)
You probably do... but needless to say, you'll see me in this one,
too. This echo isn't your typical atheist fare, however. It's a
relatively sane echo... which makes it all the more enjoyable. Just
the facts, ma'am, as it were.
-TR
... These pigs wanna blow my house down. - Cypress Hill
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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From: Todd Rourke
To: Jeff Vineburg
Sub: Go Arlen, Go!
Date: 23 Jul 94 16:35:49
--------
EID:7f02 1cf78460
MSGID: 1:323/110 2e31e7de
PID: TeleMail 1.51
JV> Arlen `Single Bullet' Specter was booed for a half-minute at a
JV> Republican convention in Iowa recently.
JV> Why?
JV> He dared to defend separation of church and state.
As a Republican and an atheist, I (for one) was very encouraged in
seeing Arlen Specter take the stand that he did. Of course to me,
atheism is the ultimate in conservatism... it's complete 'up by your
boot-straps' thinking. It is NOT sitting there waiting for divine
intervention from invisible forces we are not supposed to understand.
The invisible forces bit always makes me think of welfare and gov't
hand outs. Brrr...
-TR
... Countries with the most nobles also have the most misery. - Bacon
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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--------
From: Todd Rourke
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Winterisms
Date: 23 Jul 94 16:37:49
--------
EID:cfc9 1cf784a0
MSGID: 1:323/110 2e31e7df
PID: TeleMail 1.51
CB> it is a fraud.
So I have seen it reported... but I did send netmail to Steve about
it and I would hope that he'd take the time to reply.
CB> even Winter isn't that dumb.
Initially I'd agree with you, but it seems that he has been stepping
up his campaign in recent months... so while I took this article to
be a bit of 'bad form' from his corner, it wasn't something that
amazed me, either.
-TR
... A jest's prosperity lies in the ear that hears it. - Shakespeare
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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From: Tod Brock
To: Brett Arroyo
Sub: Re: the love of God
Date: 23 Jul 94 02:48:16
--------
EID:0fb7 1cf71600
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
hate to disagree...but aramaic was in only app 5 chapters of the orginal
¨Bibl
e. As far as translating it into only male...in the Greek language there
¨is
one word for both male and female, there is not in the English language.
¨You
could says 'ya all'...however, early translators only used the male ¨version
o
f the word. The New Revised Standard Version takes this into account ¨and
use
s the phrase 'brothers and sisters' when that Greek word is used.
--- ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
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From: Mitchell Peabody
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: Re: The Love Of God
Date: 23 Jul 94 16:17:00
--------
EID:5f0e 1cf78220
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org fe22563d
CB> MP> Yes, but in a second message you said we discuss the separation
of
CB> MP> Church, State, and Atheist... wouldn't this then be ON topic?
CB>
CB> those ARE the topics. [grin]
Ok... just so we're clear on it...
Mitch
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From: Mitchell Peabody
To: John
Sub: Re: Athiests Kill Too
Date: 23 Jul 94 16:17:00
--------
EID:2330 1cf78220
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org 5349f620
J> You dunb a** !I dispise you!You ought to know better than to hate God.
J> He has a purpose for everything he does.Yyou said that you didn't like
thin
g
Uhhm... I may be wrong, I haven't studied religion very hard , but
doesn't religion teach tolerance for people who do not hold the same
beliefs as you?
J> that he does,we'll how about when he saves lives,and works miracles
J> and answers prayers.Man,you're headed down the wrong road.
If he did this, if he exists, then we wouldn't be in such a
bloody mess.
Mitch
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From: Mitchell Peabody
To: John
Sub: Re: Teen Athiests
Date: 23 Jul 94 16:17:00
--------
EID:b8c4 1cf78220
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org 02752421
J> Hey you said some pretty strong stuff.But anyway,nature was descended
from
o
J> god, and that god is God. Also, rocks aren't trees and water isn't the
wind
J> they are different.People are a part of nature, so then couldn't you
say th
a
J> peole,descended from one (G)od are different.Just because God is you're
J> creator doesn't mean that you are the same, it means you have one more
thin
g
J> common.
But you just said that people were descended from one (G)od, aren't
different. And then you say just because God is your creator doesn't
mean you are the same... ;-/ If we are all the same, how come your
god treats us all differently?
J> And I agree with you .I think athieism is an atolescent phase, but it
is a
b
J> one.
Why? There are other phases people deem perfectly natural...
J> One more thing. Have you read the Bible before?If you haven't, then do
beca
u
J> if you're going to put something down, it helps to accually know hard
core
J> things about it. I have read things about varrious religions and find
J> Chritianity to be the best and the most fulfilling.
J> type back,
Tis true, I have yet to read the bible, although I am at this point,
but I still don't agree with some ofthe things your religion's preaches
or
practices.
Mitch
---
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--------
From: Thomas Morton
To: Ruby Tuesday
Sub: test
Date: 19 Jul 94 19:35:31
--------
EID:bf94 1cf39c60
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:2624/405.0 2e2c6345
-=> Quoting Ruby Tuesday to Thomas Morton <=-
TM> Now carrying this echo.
RT> Is it heavy? :)
Are you related to Wolf Grishaver?
Z
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From: Thomas Morton
To: Todd Rourke
Sub: test
Date: 19 Jul 94 19:35:32
--------
EID:aa16 1cf39c60
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:2624/405.0 2e2c6346
-=> Quoting Todd Rourke to Thomas Morton <=-
TM> Now carrying this echo.
TR> Welcome, Z-Man.
HEY! Don't I see you in ENOUGH nets?!? *:-)
Z
... The Holy Trinity - Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook
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--------
From: Thomas Morton
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: THE LOVE OF MONEY
Date: 19 Jul 94 19:35:32
--------
EID:17f2 1cf39c60
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:2624/405.0 2e2c6347
-=> Quoting Christopher Baker to Thomas Morton <=-
CB> this won't be necessary since we don't such things here. Armstrong has
CB> just been admonished to take his stuff to HOLYSMOKE so engage him over
CB> there.
Point taken.
Heh... I just might do that, too. *:-)
Z
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From: David Macdonald
To: Justiss Armstrong
Sub: THE LOVE OF GOD
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:25:13
--------
EID:b7ef 1cf37b20
MSGID: 1:232/310 100b9ce4
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: THE LOVE OF GOD
Next time. buy a verb.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Robert Pappas
Sub: Seperation of Church & State
Date: 19 Jul 94 14:09:58
--------
EID:2c7c 1cf37120
PID: SX4.02B04 DOPEFISH
9 Jul 94, dixo Robert Pappas a Steve Quarrella:
RP> hey steve is there a book or publication i can get that has
RP> such quotes in it?
Unknown...those quotes I have were culled from my own reading as well as
from HOLYSMOKE. You might want to stick your head into HOLYSMOKE or
CHURCH&STATE if you are unable to locate anything here. Considering that
all three of these forums deal in separation issues (to which the quotes
apply, I think), you should be able to dig up SOMETHING.
RP> is there an atheist book catalogue i can
Time for Christopher Baker to say something, if he hasn't already. :)
RP> send off for? is it ok to end a sentence with a preposition/
According to Strunk and White, that's a bozo no-no.
... Who do we want? Randall Terry! How do we want him? Pregnant!
--- Via Gold Xpress V4.02B04 DOPEFISH
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--------
From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: taxes on churches
Date: 20 Jul 94 15:00:12
--------
EID:e6ee 1cf47800
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e2d3ee2
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7887e2f4
PID: GED G1219
Hello Henry!
Sunday July 17 1994 07:02, Henry Mcgrattan wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
HM> Of course religion is subsidized. It is subsidized by being
HM> allowed to operate free of taxes.
Well, if you call that being subsidized, OK.
HM> I remain unimpressed by the fact that some church groups do good
HM> work. For every Salvation Army there are a dozen Reverend Moons,
HM> Jimmy Swaggarts, and corruption at the local levels of such
HM> organizations as the Catholic Church.
And you believe the government to be completely free of corruption?
It's awfully hard to measure corruption, since it tends to be at least half-he
artedly covered up.
HM> I think it is important to note, taking Toronto for example, that
HM> church groups sponsor low income housing and coops. However,
HM> many non-partisan groups similarly sponsor such facilities. Most
HM> coops are simply groups of people who organized around housing
HM> needs. Why foist mythology on people who are primarily looking
HM> for a place to live.
YOu have a point there, but not all church groups will do that. Of course,
th
ey will make their literature readily available, and perhaps hold church
servi
ces etc... but they do not force people to attend. And I still believe
that r
eligion is good for people, especially people who are down on their luck,
and
need a source of hope, so that they can put their lives back together.
HM> And when you ask who am I to define "reality" I suggest that you
HM> check the conference guidelines which decree that there is no
HM> god. So argue with the moderator on that one.
Oh. Ok. I guess I missed that rule. Sorry about that.
HM> So what _is_ your real name?
My real name? Karen Morrison.
Ruby Tuesday
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From: Jeff Vineburg
To: All
Sub: Go Arlen, Go!
Date: 19 Jul 94 13:06:22
--------
EID:14cf 1cf368c0
MSGID: 1:2614/705.0 2e2c080e
Did anyone catch this?
Arlen `Single Bullet' Specter was booed for a half-minute at a
Republican convention in Iowa recently.
Why?
He dared to defend separation of church and state.
Much as I dislike the practice of beating on one party (I hate them
all), this act says more about where the Republicans are at than
anything else.
Pat Buchanan, defender of the One True Faith, said he sounded like a
Christian-bashing Democrat. Lovely how when Arlen stands up for
separation, the Christian calls him a basher. That sounds almost
Democratic .
As Specter left the podium, he was immediately accosted by supporters of
Buchanan, who told him they resented interference with their religious
activities. This should be enough to convince people that there's
something wrong.....
And let's not forget Pat Robertson, who refers to separation as a `lie
of the left.'
Some speculate that Specter's warming up to run against Dole for
president. Considering the actions of his OWN PARTY, this might not be
a possibility.
He's a brave man, if only for this.
* SLMR 2.1a * He blew a tube? Sounds painful....
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Mark Melvin
To: Sid Schneider
Sub: Re: Any other Canadian Atheists?
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:14:00
--------
EID:0daf 1cf3b9c0
MSGID: 1:218/909 6497d21b
Via SLMAIL v4.0 (#2507)
>I am desperately looking for others to chat with and share thoughts and
>ideas supporting atheism.
I'm new to this echo and have found the posts here so far to be
interesting. I grew up in a church setting, went to church school for several
years, but recently find myself questioning religon in general. I'm looking
forward to hearing more talk on atheism.
I'm a little tired tonight and won't be commenting much more than these
few li
nes for now. I'll be looking forward to talking to all of you here in the
ver
y near future..
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Patricia Lange
Sub: Re: Bible In School
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:48:22
--------
EID:a29d 1cf37e00
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2C2E06
PID: GenMsg 4.15 [0002]
In a message dated: 17 Jul 94, Patricia Lange was quoted as saying:
PL> during class discussion time, is the teacher allowed to let the
PL> others ridicule him or offer other interpretations? Does she have a
PL> duty to present all the other sides? To ignore what's going on for
PL> fear of having some (by definition, state-sponsored) influence on
PL> the outcome?
comparative religion classes are very inappropriate for elementary
school students. children who have not yet reached the age of abstract
thinking are poor targets for such a course.
when the teacher told the boy he could read his bible during his free
time, she was correct. when she told him it was inappropriate to read
from it for a class assignment, she was correct.
when Thomas Jefferson [to whom public education was a very important
consideration] said bibles should not be given to young children his
reasoning was as above. the place to teach religion to innocent minds is
the home by the parents if they must.
imagine the hullabaloo if one his 7 year old classmates wished to read
from the so-called Satanic bible in reading class. in the social
environment you've described you'd have a riot.
please keep us apprised of the outcome of this 'event'.
thanks, for posting it and welcome to the Echo.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Ian Hebert
Sub: Re: God on money
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:49:42
--------
EID:c8f7 1cf37e20
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2C2E56
PID: GenMsg 4.15 [0002]
In a message dated: 16 Jul 94, Ian Hebert was quoted as saying:
IH> If this were not the case, if the currency were not already being
IH> re-designed, then trying to force the issue would be a real waste
IH> of money. But given that the process is already underway, why not
IH> take advantage of it?
the NRA [not the gun folks, the bible folks] certainly used that same
argument when they got it on the money during the redesign. no reason
we shouldn't turn it about. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Re: Atheist Humour
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:34:57
--------
EID:792a 1cf3bc40
MSGID: 1:374/14 2E2C9B61
PID: GenMsg 4.15 [0002]
In a message dated: 18 Jul 94, Henry Mcgrattan was quoted as saying:
DM> "you still do not have a good joke"
HM> Fuck you. And I say this with all due respect.
take it easy it folks. it's only Echomail.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
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From: Mitchell Peabody
To: Chris Ferree
Sub: The Love Of God
Date: 20 Jul 94 09:40:00
--------
EID:b23e 1cf44d00
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org 4d4b8c2c
CF> MP>And you know this is true because? Do you know for a fact the the
bibl
e
CF> MP>is true? If so, I would like to see some proof.
CF>
CF> Eeek, not touching that one.
Actually, if I saw this too, I wouldn't try either...
CF> that quote was without its quirks.. That one would specifically mention
CF> his deity is quite.. ego-centric.
Sorry, it was the definition in there, but I didn't include
all the verbs. and stuff, and yes there were other definitions,
but they were along the same lines... and God isn't just reserved
for Christians, they just took the name, and now whenever someone
says "God" it is taken as a holy word. It didn't mention
HIS god... and is it not ego-centric for him to try and
use his religion as a justification?
---
ž NFX v1.3 [000] If the "almighty" exists and wants me to stop being me,
he c
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From: Mitchell Peabody
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Re: The Love Of God
Date: 20 Jul 94 09:40:00
--------
EID:5f0e 1cf44d00
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org 3c07b1b4
CB> we don't do god[s], their book[s], or their denomination[s], here.
CB>
CB> take your subject line and bible questions to a bible Echo or to
CB> HOLYSMOKE Echo where they are on-topic.
Yes, but in a second message you said we discuss the separation of
Church, State, and Atheist... wouldn't this then be ON topic?
Mitch
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From: Mitchell Peabody
To: Henry Mcgrattan
Sub: Atheist Humour
Date: 20 Jul 94 09:40:00
--------
EID:2b47 1cf44d00
MSGID: 1:266/159@fidonet.org e225515c
HM> "you still do not have a good joke"
HM>
HM> **** you. And I say this with all due respect.
With respect or not, it is still not nice.
Mitch
---
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[Y,
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From: Todd Rourke
To: All
Sub: Winterisms
Date: 20 Jul 94 21:28:56
--------
EID:3049 1cf4ab80
MSGID: 1:323/110 2e2df468
PID: TeleMail 1.51
I suggest that anyone remotely interested in large scale hacking and
so forth check out the FIDONEWS 1129. It seems our buddy from the
Christian Right (Steve Winter) has made a broad call to arms to all
'Christians' to hack, upload viruses, crash, and otherwise destroy
any 'Pagan' or 'New Age' online systems. At first glance I really
have to wonder what kind of grass Mr. Winter has been smoking and
whether he realizes he could be setting himself up for a nasty policy
complaint or other legal action. At second glance, after reading his
words in his echo and elsewhere, I have come to realize that this
petty individual will go to any lengths to shush-up anyone he decides
doesn't agree with his all-to-limited view of the world.
-TR
... Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. - Nietzsche
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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From: Marylou Jenkins
To: All
Sub: question
Date: 21 Jul 94 11:46:50
--------
EID:a801 1cf55dc0
MSGID: 1:396/17.0 2e2eb48a
This may seem like a silly question to some of you, but I do not intend
it to
be.
I do not as a rational thinking person believe (think, understand accept)
the
notion that there is any such "thing" (in the widdest possible meaning of
that
word) as "god" ( a god, godlike, etc.) There is "nobody" "out there" in
any o
bjective physical meaning of those words.
Yet at the same time I can speak of "god" (or to, about, etc.) with emotional
reaslity. It would be similar as the meaning I have with "Nany" (my now
dead g
randmother)- She no longer exists in any reality sense of the word, yet
whe de
finitely has meaning to me and her "presence" in a psychological reality.
She
is "real" to me while not existing.
Now the comparison is very weak at points, since "god" never was "existing"
fo
r me (not true, since as a youngster I held otherwise, but is true now).
Is this construct (even if you don't want to share it) of possible meaning
for
an avowed atheist?
Thanks- Not having read the rules of this echo please forgive me is this
querr
y is "off-topic", but I think all of you know that none of the "religious"
ech
oes would get me anything but scorn.
MLJ
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Fredric Rice
To: tom kunesh
Sub: Simpler Gov't
Date: 26 Jul 94 23:49:25
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 679782da
REPLY: 1:362/122.29@fidonet AA4F3063
PID: FM 2.02
tk>> i also just found about the "decisions" of the Internal Revenue
tk>> Service in the '70s to deny tax exemptions to segregated Christian
tk>> academies. if this is true, it becomes another demonstration of
tk>> the IRS as enforcer of US national policy. and so much for the
tk>> separation of church and state.
FR> As much as I dislike you, I would have to tend to agree.
tk> frankly, i can't remember if the dislike is mutual or not. ;)
<-snort!-> 'Probably not since I'm so likeable. There have
been
some matters of ideological differences in the past yet we _have_ agreed
upon
some things. I have had to face the fact that Catholic schools offer a
good e
ducation and does not impose upon its students a theocratic bent as part
of th
e payment. I suspect that we had talked about this before and, prior to
going
into the discussion, I hadn't examined Catholic schools before.
tk> regardless of style or tack, i do appreciate a person
tk> who can see what's correct in an opponent's discussion.
tk>
tk> but then, maybe this is just a fluke, eh? ;)
Probably. Then there's the problem of your breath. }:-} (Moderator doesn't
allow personal attacks yet what if they're backed by scientific, clinical
test
ing?)
Oh! This reminds me... (Next message.)
FR> Were I to make a bid at getting 501(c)3 tax status for my church,
FR> I highly suspect that I would be denied often. Were I to
FR> eventually acquire such status (or in the off-chance that it was
FR> granted without a fight) I could expect to be audited every year...
FR> simply because my god is a Goat.
tk> i'd say not too far away from Santeria - and they're protected.
tk> or a revitalization of an old Canaanite cousin to the god of
tk> the Golden Calf. of heck, just say you're egyptian ... then you
tk> can have minority status, too!
Santeria is "special" in that it's a recognized religion. If I were to
base m
y religion on the Sun God Ra or even the Savior/Sun God Mithras, I might
have
a better chance at it... yet Star Goat?
I have this feeling that the IRS _does_ decide who is a religion and who
is no
t. I have this suspicion that they, their officers, make an attempt to
determ
ine whether the members of the church actually believe in their deities
or rit
uals and they place the religion into one of two boxes:
o A church
o A protest against taxes (a tax dodge)
Since Star Goat is merely symbolic, it's not a deity. Yet it _is_ a matter
of
ideological worship as a metaphore for absurdity. I have mail sitting on
thi
s lap top from people who have gotten angry at Star Goat being called a
"false
god." I have stated too often that the metaphore is what's important, not
wh
at's attributed to it. I'm not sure where the IRS would place the Restored
Ch
urch of the Star Goat. I have seen that some Goatees are very serious even
th
ough they have no idea, exactly, what the church is all about.
Don't get me wrong; these guys and gals are great fun talking to yet they
have
made the metaphore for absurdity something they feel the need to defend.
In
doing so outside of jest, they violate the reason for Star Goat's existance.
FR> I should like to see Christopher respond. Like it or not, there
FR> are governmental agenices which _do_ decide what is a valid church
FR> and what is not and there are financial incentives in the decision.
tk> i look forward to him breaking his vow of silence on this matter.
Like he would last a day... I've telephoned him without first
ch
ecking to see what time it was on the East Coast in the United States before.
I _know_ he can't hold a civil toung in his head after being awaken at 2
in t
he morning. That was -- good grief, that was like four years ago.
I
f he had forgotten, I wonder if he'll be reminded.
Well, if you never hear from me again... #@$(*NO CAR!@
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Winterisms
Date: 27 Jul 94 00:04:33
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 679782dc
REPLY: 1:374/14 2E2F3748
PID: FM 2.02
TR> so forth check out the FIDONEWS 1129. It seems our buddy from the
TR> Christian Right (Steve Winter) has made a broad call to arms to all
TR> 'Christians' to hack, upload viruses, crash, and otherwise destroy
TR> any 'Pagan' or 'New Age' online systems. At first glance I really
cb> it is a fraud.
I telephone Steve Winter last night... about 25 hours ago, by my hotel
clock.
He claims that he did not post the article and he fingered Barry Carter.
I h
ad telephoned Barry Carter two weeks ago and, frankly, I wouldn't trust
either
of them to walk my dog unless my dog could defend its honor.
cb> even Winter isn't that dumb.
He is. He's even dumb enough to post the message himself then to deny it
so t
hat he could finger Barry Carter for having done it. These two guys have
been
at each other's throats for some months.
After I read the article, I sent a note to Sylvia telling her that it was
a fr
aud as it didn't have the right look and feel. Steve is cunning enough
to kno
w that he had best not solicit criminal actions publically and whoever posted
the article was using the criminal angle as his vehicle for revenge against
so
me percieved wrong.
Sylvia telephoned to the hotel here some three or four hours ago with a
messag
e saying she would call back. Through a cop on the network I heard that
Winte
r and Sylvia talked on the telephone already and that she will be publishing
a
n apology! The search for who actually published it is underway as this
was a
serious, major crime. I have FAXed EFF in the event Sylvia decides it's
not
important to trace down.
Let me tell you, Chris, she has been butt-fucked twice! She has lamented
what
she has been forced to decide twice and I have recieved a message from her
wh
ich was written by a women in tears because of what assholes are doing to
the
magazine she edits. Rather than be angry, she seems to feel the victim.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Langston Goldfinch
Sub: ATHIESTS KILL TOO
Date: 27 Jul 94 00:05:55
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 679782dd
REPLY: 1:396/17 2e2f9b4c
PID: FM 2.02
J> You dunb a** !I dispise you!You ought to know better than to hate
J> God. He has a purpose for everything he does.Yyou said that you
lg> He made you, enough bad work for anyone. On the other hand I find you
lg> entertaining, so maybe I don't hate HIM as much as I though.
One can determine the attributes of a deity by the people who profess it.
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:102/890)
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