God Damned Fundies!
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Josh Talbot
|Sub: Abortion Argument
|Date: 14 Jan 96 22:08:00
EID:6f86 202eb100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447B7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Josh Talbot to Michael Hardy <=-
JT> Instead of examining the Constitution or (as in the case of
JT> the cristians) the Bible. Try examining the lifestyles of people who
JT> got pregnent as teens. Or of most single mothers. You'll find that
JT> most of them would have benefitted from an abortion. Don't look at the
JT> fact that the embryos are future humans. Take a look at the hardships
JT> an unwanted baby place on a woman.
Why NOT look at the fact that the embryos are *already* humans, who
simply haven't developed as much as you and me?
All kinds of things place hardships on people. Generally, we don't
advocate killing "inconvenient" people to get ourselves out of a
hard spot.
Unless we're terribly selfish.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: HUCKSTERS
|Date: 14 Jan 96 20:00:00
EID:75ad 202ea000
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447B8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Do you mean the book says that anyone who believes himself to be a
MH> Christian is one? No, it says in several places that it is possible
MH> to deceive yourself into thinking you are when you're not.
ML> So, Mike, just how are you so sure that you're a true Christian
ML> then?
ML> Isn't it, however remotely, possible that you have deceived
ML> yourself somewhere along the line?
Yes. That's why it's important for people who want to be Christians to
examine their beliefs and lifestyles closely in relation to the
teachings of Christ.
... Now, did you have a point to make?
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: abortion argument
|Date: 14 Jan 96 20:36:00
EID:4b5b 202ea480
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447B9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Michael Hardy <=-
RS> I'm sure you and I will agree that the best way to confront this
RS> problem would be to not get pregnant in the first place but that
RS> doesn't happen all of the time. The simple reality of life at the
RS> moment means that abortion should at least be an option.
MH> I agree that prevention is best. However, I think that if a
MH> pregnancy does occur, the woman's rights are superseded by her
MH> obligation to the life she's created. I don't think the unborn's
MH> life should be forfeit simply because his mother made a poor
MH> choice.
RS> What if the mother did not make a poor choice and was raped by
RS> someone? What if she was raped by her father?
Mixed feelings. I sympathize for the woman; on the other hand, I don't
know that justifies taking the innocent life of the unborn.
RS> What if the mother will die if she goes to term? What then?
Then abortion becomes, in my opinion, a legitimate option. Someone is
going to die no matter what.
However, neither of these cases applies to most abortions. Why do
people who are pro-choice consistently trot out the traditional "hard
cases" in an effort to justify abortions had by intelligent, informed
women in their 20s who don't want a baby to slow down the career track?
As a parallel, would it be legitimate for a racist to claim that it
should be OK for whites to shoot blacks at will, and say "What if the
black man was about to kill your wife?" as a defense for it?
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: hello?
|Date: 14 Jan 96 20:40:00
EID:4f5d 202ea500
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> You don't have to accept my apology to you. That's your decision. I
MH> would like to know that you got it though, especially as I've been
MH> having some feed problems of late.
MH> Would you please confirm you received it?
PS> I did receive it, and I replied accepting it. Did it not get through?
It did not; that's not surprising, as I've been having monumental feed
problems lately. I've seen several instances where someone sent a post
to me and I never got it, and only knew about it because I saw someone
else quoting it back to the sender.
I'm glad that you accepted it, though. :)
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Al, the tortured pupp
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:07:00
EID:0204 202ea8e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Al Schroeder <=-
MB>>> Address the issue. Are you a puppet because you can't piss on the
MB>>> moon from Earth, despite wanting to?
HP>> And does he feel "tortured" by that inability? :-)
HP>> Fundy "logic" is so silly...
AS> Remind me not to be near you during the next full moon...
HP> ROFL! That's the best you've got? Come on, Al, address the issue:
HP> Do you or don't you feel tortured by your inability to, say, fly by
HP> flapping your arms?
HP> And did you or did you not claim we'd be "tortured puppets" if we were
HP> unable to do what we wanted?
HP> Now, what was your point again?
Is it just me, or is Hectron's sophistry becoming increasingly
sophomoric?
BTW, I need your address. I have something to send you that I can't
make fit into my computer.
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 14 Jan 96 22:10:00
EID:d99e 202eb140
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> before.) Could it just have been a case of chronic insensitivity, to
AS> say to a atheist who saw his believing father-in-law suffer a
AS> horrible,lingering death? Could he have meant well, no matter how
AS> Shelby took it? Granted that such insensitivity might have been
AS> culpable in itself, but if you saw it, do YOU think he was being
AS> deliberately cruel to Shelby?
LB> He may have meant well -- insensitivity is a good way of putting it.
LB> That's basically what I'm referring to as "casual cruelty". The act
of
LB> not bothering
LB> to see it from the other person's viewpoint. George R.'s comments
LB> were also cruel -- it seems a minimal trait of humanity to be able to
LB> lay aside any debate or dispute long enough to care when someone else
LB> is going through a tough time, and not use that vulnerable period to
LB> try to score a hit on them.
Please take this as a gentle question in light of what you just said.
Did you offer any sympathy to Jim/Lon on his father's serious illness?
(Not saying you didn't, just asking.) I saw several people pounce on
the evidence of their being the same person, but I didn't see anyone
offering him any kind words.
In light of the fact that he's being criticized for being insensitive,
shouldn't his critics be scrupulous to not commit the same offense?
... I am Mother of Borg ... no dessert until your broccoli is assimilated.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Get Serious!
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:26:00
EID:ed5d 202eab40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Glen Zilly <=-
GZ> In a message to Dan Ceppa you stated Saul (who later became
GZ> known as Paul) started Christianity. Here are my comments on your
GZ> claim.
GZ> 1. Do you have any evidence besides your hearsay excuses.
RS>
RS> I just love it when christians fight amongst themselves.
Just to make a slight correction ... Glen is mistaken. Dan is the one
who makes that claim. I do not. See my post to him for more
information.
... Atheist reaching orgasm: "Oh chance! Oh random!!!! Yes!! Yes!!!"
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Linda Whitten
|Sub: lifestyle
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:28:00
EID:70a4 202eab80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Linda Whitten to Kris Okelly <=-
KO> yeah god does love everyone.. but he does not like the lifestyle..
LW> Just a wee bit judgemental aren't we?
LW> Where in your Bible does it say that God doesn't like certain people's
LW> lifestyles?
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God."
Galatians 5:19-21
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality,
impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord,
jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and
envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before,
that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Isaiah 61:8
"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity."
Amos 5:21-24
"I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your
assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain
offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship
offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of
your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let
justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing
stream!"
Zechariah 8:17
"'Do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear
falsely. I hate all this,' declares the LORD."
... and so on.
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: HUCKSTERS
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:37:00
EID:a42e 202eaca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to David Worrell <=-
DW> I knew there was something I didn't like about you... :)
JB> I guess you can't have everything. I just don't find Steve Martin
JB> funny. But then, it takes you a while with puns. Maybe that's
JB> what it is. Martin's humor is like using a sledge hammer. I prefer mine
JB> a bit more subtle.
FWIW, he plays it straight in "Leap of Faith." It's not a comedy.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: JIM Staal
|Sub: Re: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 12 Jan 96 07:42:19
EID:a24e 202c3d40
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f8f31a
-=> Quoting JIM Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> Why in front of you? Are you threatening physical violence against
GR> his person because he stood up and called you a poltroon?
JS> Well, hello, george. No, I am merely making a statement to prove I
JS> _am_ no poltroon.
'Lil fundie,
How does that prove you aren't a poltroon? If he stands up to you it proves
he
isn't a poltroon.
Try Mark 16:15-18. You are either a poltroon or believe Christ is a liar.
george
... Thongs, spandex and halter tops! Oh my!
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 12 Jan 96 07:56:20
EID:3fa0 202c3f00
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f8f31b
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Preston Simpson <=-
GR> Three hundred pounds of flab with a gun, does not a man make.
JS> Interesting...you can conjure up some false impression of me,
'Lil fundie,
Sorry I did no conjuring. You provided a GIF of yourself. You stated that
you weigh 300 pounds. You stated that you always carry a gun for protection
against some Karate Kid.
The only thing I may be guilty of is believing a liar.
And if you are a liar, you aren't in any position to judge me for being
wrong
for believing you.
but
JS> refuse my many invites to breakfast so the awful truth can be known
JS> once and for all...
Why should I accept them? You admit that you have mental problems. You
admit
that you have been on medication for your mental problems. And you admit
that
you have decided you don't need to take your medicine.
My mom didn't raise an Einstein but she didn't raise a fool either.
I'll meet you on my turf at the time of my choosing with Dave Oosterman's
gaurantee that you are not carrying a gun.
george
... Those who vote Republican are either very rich or very stupid.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: DEFINITIONS
|Date: 12 Jan 96 08:06:07
EID:a4f8 202c40c0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f8f31c
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
PS> Are you going to set about improving yourself, or continue making an
PS> ass of yourself?
GR> Preston,
GR> Give the guy some credit, he is good at making an ass out of himself.
JS> And I am to be judged by your personal criteria?
'Lil fundie,
Why yes you are. Not much different than you judging me by your mob criteria.
You don't even know
JS> me,
Sure I do. I know you very well. You were a man without a job, I got you
one,
and you didn't show up. You believe in the Bible when it is convenient.
You
aren't very well read when it comes to the Bible. You have spent a good
chunk
of your life in the bottom of a booze bottle. You have struck your wife.
You
don't know much of anything except how to be a good sheep.
yet you judge me. You don't even have the guts to come to
JS> breakfast. (I'll buy) and yet you judge me. Tsk.
Why should I? You have nothing to offer me and are too ignorant to accept
what
I have to offer.
You have wasted your life. You are just passing time waiting to go to heaven.
george
... Fundies can't think and miss the beauty of the music of life. gr
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: John Oliver
|To: Charles Rollins
|Sub: Homosexian Christuals
|Date: 13 Jan 96 20:49:00
EID:6ea1 202da620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f907b4
Hello Charlie the Tuna,
On 12 Jan 96 10:35 David Worrell wrote to Charles Rollins...
DW> 08 Jan 96 13:04, Charles Rollins wrote to Fredric Rice:
DW> CR> God and us can hate acts but love the person..
DW> Really? Is God going to send the act of homosexuality to hell, or is
he
DW> going to send the homosexual to hell? Is he going to send the act of
DW> murder to hell, or the murderer? The act of stealing, or the thief?
The
DW> act of blasphemy, or the blasphemer?
Like David said your point doesn't make any sense at all. Since
the
inception of Christianity, the "CHURCH" and all the members of
the
Christian faith at the time, worked out what is now handed down to
us,
well, albeit changed!
Now, in the beginning Christianity was considered by all religious groups
at the time including Judaism as a outlawed group of insurrectionists.
Dangerous to the state, until the time of Constantine, and he used it
for
his own political ambitions.
Before he died, he granted to the Christian Church and its highest Bishop,
what is now the pope, the ancient pagan title of Pontifix Maximus. In other
words, Head of the State Religion of Rome.
Now, getting back to the issue of homosexuality. At various times up
to
and after the Reformation of the 15th Century, the Church dealt with
the
issue of Homosexuality by simply ignoring it as unimportant. They
had
bigger fish to fry. The Protestant denominations took up this holier than
thou position in regard to sex, and condemn it more so than the Catholic
or
Eastern Church ever did.
The point is, homosexuality is a contentious point in regards
to
controlling the sexual habits of Christianities adherents, and in truth
has had nothing to do with the Bible whatsoever.
Scripture, condemns sexual licentiousness, not sexual orientation, just
the
indiscriminate use of sex especially in religious practices. Again,
we
come back to Leviticus, and the New Testament. Therefore, how can
God
condemn Homosexuals, when Homosexuality isn't a Sin. To argue otherwise
is
to speak contrary to the New Testament of our Lord.
That Charlette, is Heresy!
Rgds,
/~~~\ John W. Oliver
{ 0 0 } Internet:joliver@turner.lamf.uwindsor.ca
--oOOO--(_)--OOOo-- Fido:john.oliver@f15.n246.z1.fidonet.org
... The Romans referred to Jesus using "ECCE HOMO" not "ECCE HETREO".
~~~ wsOMR/1.00 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: forgiveness available
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:15:34
EID:37ed 202e59e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf2
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> Jim Staal, who wanted to be a miner, but was lousy adit, said to
ML> MARTY LEIPZIG:
ML> Now, which Staal is really receiving this message?
-=> Quoting MARTY LEIPZIG to JIM STAAL <=-
JS> Nah...I was at the local large Schuler's Books tonight
JS> and...heesh...what a bunch of geeks and dweebs! Losers! Especially in
JS> and around the metaphysics section. Guffaw!
ML> I see you added to the biomass.
JS> Huh!?
ML> See?
What!?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:21:59
EID:663b 202e5aa0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf3
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> Jim or Lump? Which Staal for you [J/L]?
'J'. How many lumps for you? One or two...step up here...
-=> Quoting MARTY LEIPZIG to JIM STAAL <=-
JS> why, there are two versions on my monitor. What would you like to
JS> know?
ML> Which is the correct version?
JS> Which ever one works best in a given application...
ML> Even when they're contradictory?
JS> To...?
ML> Each other.
ML> Why would they need two versions if they were exactly the same?
I don't know about 'they', but for me, one is in English I can
understand first time through. The other is fine old English literature
in style, but the meaning is harder to grasp.
ML> Sheesh...this isn't that difficult a thread to follow, Jim. Try
ML> and think for once.
Hey, Marty bud...loosen that collar a bit and lay back, OK? I knew what
you were trying to imply, but I don't see it that way. I don't see them
as contradictory. They say the same thing. One is just a little easier
for Jim Staal to understand. It speaks to me. Before I met the NIV, the
writings of my favorite epistler (Paul) were just a bunch of 'shewest
thou me's. And I'm not Al Bundy. I don't sell women's shoes. Ya know?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Staal shows
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:25:01
EID:dacf 202e5b20
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf4
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> Is this really Jim Stall or just another soy-derived substitute?
Hey, let's get the spelling of my good name correct, OK? 'STAAL'! Never
'Stall'!
ML> Freud was right.
JS> About? Cocaine gives you bizzare sexual ideas? What!?
ML> Something about "slips". Look it up.
JS> Nope...mom said never to look up one of those...
ML> So, you just stay home and watch a little TV instead?
Uh...no. I like concerting. I like Italian cuisine...and Chinese...and
a visit to the Japanese steakhouse. I even like to PARTY!...though I do
not allow myself the privilege...anymore...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:35:18
EID:1d05 202e5c60
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf5
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> Jimbo, is this really you or someone just as ignorant?
I really despise your new 'intro' lines...
ML> Nope. Just as you seem not to have a problem with being a
ML> poltroon.
JS> Poltroon, eh? Stand up and look me in the face when you say that,
JS> MISTER Leipzig! (rent-a-MILKCRATE [TM])
ML> I don't need a milkcrate, Comrade.
So they tried to tell me. I would not believe it. I do not believe it. I
have seen no evidence of it...for _I_ am 6'7", 285lbs of well marbled
Hollander...
ML> Frightening thought, 'eh what?
Nah...you seem more of a man of words...
ML> Even with all your aliases?
JS> Name one that wasn't intentionally obvious? You have been here longer
JS> than I so there was no intent to fool ya...
ML> Not for a picosecond.
'picosecond'???
ML> "Nothing personal"? Well, Jimbo, I think you're deceptive,
ML> self-aggrandizing miscreant of a fundy.
JS> A "miscrean of a fundy"? 'eh?
ML> Nope. It's spelled "miscreant". Get a dictionary, Jimbo.
Nah...just didn't hit the 't'...
JS> Sheesh, I must have really
JS> punched your buttons. Pray tell, what was it that torqued you
JS> off so much?
ML> Squwauk! Jimbo want a cracker?
Cheese, please...
JS> And how/where, pray tell, did I impugn your integrity? Are you saying
JS> you are not a heinous blasphemer
ML> "Heinous": Extremely wicked, atrocious.
ML> "Blasphemer": One who blasphemes; i.e., to speak impiously
ML> of sacred things.
Heinous (adjective, modifying 'blasphemer'. They would go hand in hand.
One could not be a righteous blasphemer now, could one...) blasphemer.
ML> Well, Jimbo; I am not wicked; nor am I atrocious; in fact, my
ML> wordsmithery reflects refinement and exemplary English.
My my...you can wax eloquent if you desire...
ML> Strike 1.
ML> As I think there is nothing sacred, there is nothing to
ML> blaspheme. Indeed, how can one defame that which does not exist?
But I do and there is, therefore you did...in my eyes...
ML> Strike 2.
JS> and brutal abuser of those who
JS> profess God's name?
ML> Indeed, if my dependance upon logic, science and skeptical
ML> examination of evidence can be construed as "abuse"; may the
ML> ranks of such abusers swell.
ML> You may call rational examination and dissection of beliefs
ML> "brutal". Sorry, mate, the truth oftimes is just that.
No, I'm referring to the personal attack on the individual...as
evidenced by your current inflamatory 'intro' lines (as a small example
of the bigger picture...)
ML> Strike 3. You may now bugger off.
Sorry...that is not something one does by himself...
JS> If that is the case, then let's show some evidence
JS> to support that claim. You may start here...with me.
ML> I just did. You accused me falsely and you labeled me unjustly.
I stand by my statements as accuarate, fair and true...but don't let
that impede our obvious progress in our relationship...
ML> But, then again, you're a fundy; and I just consider the source.
Then you know it is a well thought out, just and congenial
representation of yourself in this forum.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:04
EID:c1ca 202e5ca0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf6
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to JIM Staal <=-
-=> Quoting JIM Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
GR>
GR>
GR> Why in front of you? Are you threatening physical violence against
GR> his person because he stood up and called you a poltroon?
JS> Well, hello, george. No, I am merely making a statement to prove I
JS> _am_ no poltroon.
GR>
GR> 'Lil fundie,
GR>
GR> How does that prove you aren't a poltroon? If he stands up to you it
GR> proves he isn't a poltroon.
GR>
GR> Try Mark 16:15-18. You are either a poltroon or believe Christ is a
GR> liar.
And if I stand up to him, it proves _I_ am no poltroon...BTW, poltroon,
breakfast next Saturday? 8:45 A.M.? Wyoming American Legion Hall? I
buy...(along with John Noonan, Jon Vandenberg and Sarge Nagel)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:49:17
EID:8e53 202e5e20
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf7
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Jim Staal <=-
GR> Three hundred pounds of flab with a gun, does not a man make.
JS> Interesting...you can conjure up some false impression of me,
GR> Sorry I did no conjuring. You provided a GIF of yourself. You stated
GR> that you weigh 300 pounds.
Oh yes...but I didn't mention anything about the substance of the
flesh. I prefer 'well marbled Hollander', as I spend much time in the
gym.
GR> You stated that you always carry a gun for protection against
GR> some Karate Kid.
You sir, are a cowardly liar of the greatest degree. Where did I state
I always carry a gun?
GR> The only thing I may be guilty of is believing a liar.
You sir, are the liar. Every time you renounce the existence of God you
profess the lie that your father, Satan, puts in your mouth. (Apologies
to the poor soul who lives on Collinwood)
GR> And if you are a liar, you aren't in any position to judge me for
GR> being wrong for believing you.
GR> Why should I accept them? You admit that you have mental problems.
Evidence? Your demeanor demonstrates your mental problems. Your
hellacious mood swings alone are evidence of dangerous personality
disorders...and those pills you keep on your monitor suggest to the
world that you are not right most of the time you squat at you
keyboard.
GR> My mom didn't raise an Einstein but she didn't raise a fool either.
ROFL!
GR> I'll meet you on my turf at the time of my choosing with Dave
GR> Oosterman's gaurantee that you are not carrying a gun.
Yeah...like Dave is going to listen to your madman ravings again? After
the last time you harrassed him on the phone and went off like the raving
violent lunatic that you are...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: DEFINITIONS
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:58:37
EID:150b 202e5f40
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf8
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Jim Staal <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> Give the guy some credit, he is good at making an ass out of himself.
JS> And I am to be judged by your personal criteria?
GR> Why yes you are. Not much different than you judging me by your mob
GR> criteria.
Not at all. I know nothing of this 'mob criteria'. I do know of your
behaviour, however. That is all judge you on.
GR> Sure I do. I know you very well. You were a man without a job, I got
GR> you one, and you didn't show up.
Didn't ask you to. I didn't need one. You were attempting to soothe
your own soul with a good deed. I didn't comply with your manipulation.
You became angered. (you are easily angered)
GR> You believe in the Bible when it is convenient.
Cover to cover, sir...
GR> You aren't very well read when it comes to the Bible.
I bellieve I have shown that it is you, sir, who have know knowledge of
the Bible as you sit there down on Davis St. amongst your ethnic
compadres...are you in the shadow of St. Adalbert's?
GR> You don't even have the guts to come to
JS> breakfast. (I'll buy) and yet you judge me. Tsk.
GR> Why should I? You have nothing to offer me and are too ignorant to
GR> accept what I have to offer.
Ignorance is not the issue. All I offered was free breakfast and the
opportunity to expand your social horizons...
GR> You have wasted your life. You are just passing time waiting to go
to
GR> heaven.
And you, first aid man, are a waste of a human life, passing
time...never expecting to, but unfortunately will, unless God
intervenes, go to a place of eternal punishment.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 12:01:20
EID:9170 202e6020
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf9
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Staal <=-
GR> "If your faith is smaller than a mustard seed, ask of my father in
GR> my name and you can move mountains."
GR> But then I've read the Bible.
JS>Obviously not, if you think _that_ is found in the Bible...
KS> ROFL. You ignorant fundy fool, Matt. 17:20
JS> Oh, but I _can_ read, Karl. Compare the actual scripture with george's
JS> doofus 'quote':
KS> Oh bullshit. You are dancing with a strawman. And he is leading.
Yeah...and you, sir, cannot stand being proven wrong again, can you...
JS>I mean, where does it say that the faith has to be 'smaller than a
JS>mustard seed'. Get real, get an education in scripture and _then_ come
JS>back and attempt to ridicule me, ok? Fool, indeed!
KS> Fuck you.
Sorry. Although you probably would enjoy that, (like a firm little
apple, ya know) I am happily married to the lovely Wilbur for over
29 years and doing fine, thankyou.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: coincidence screw up
|Date: 14 Jan 96 12:03:09
EID:d972 202e6060
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cfa
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Staal <=-
JS> demonstrate it publicly? Not too mention grammar and puncuation...
KS> "Not too mention"???
JS> Ah, you caught that, eh?
KS> "puncuation"???
JS> Good job.
KS> Sure, crate, you did that on purpose.
KS> Moron.
You gotta love it, dude... :)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 12:08:21
EID:9170 202e6100
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cfb
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to David Worrell <=-
GR>> "If your faith is smaller than a mustard seed, ask of my
GR>> father in my name and you can move mountains."
DW>I'm starting to think Staal is a troll. Doesn't he ever *read* that
Bible he
DW>thumps?
KS> He was doing 1 of 2 things...making a big fucking production of
KS> a typo or trying to unpaint himself out of the corner.
Typo my eye! George was attempting to show off his marvelous grasp of
scripture and screwed up! That's it. 'Typo' indeed!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 14 Jan 96 12:20:18
EID:21d4 202e6280
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cfc
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to AL SCHROEDER <=-
LB> There may well be a Mark Staal in the world, but I'm
LB> not entirely convinced that he posts in Holysmoke).
There is. He lives in Wyoming, Michigan, his wife is Karen, he is a
member of Jamstown Christian Reformed Church and he _does_ post in
Holysmoke.
LB> Shelby obviously DOESN'T see
LB> any hope of heaven -- what does telling him his father is in heaven
do
LB> for Shelby? His dad isn't here to read the message.
Uh...father-in-law...
LB> No, I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to be cruel. But it did
LB> show a disregard for what my comfort Shelby, in exchange for saying
LB> what might comfort Lon in the same situation.
What was to be expected! Shelby is cursing God (whom he doesn't
believe exists) and painting Him as the evil figure in the situation.
Lon did right by pointing out that God was in actual fact the
benevolent figure in all of this. What would be more comforting to tell
anyone who's relative/loved one served God all his life, and died in
misery: that the person just wasted all those years and as his reward
he is just rotting in the ground or that the person is now in a better
place, the reward of his life of faith?
LB> One of the things that bothers me most about the Jim/Lon thing is that
LB> if forces me to wonder if either or both really have been facing the
LB> illness of a parent, because Jim professed no knowledge of his OWN post
LB> (Lon's was already being discussed, so he knew about that one) until
it
LB> was brought up...then he said something like "what a coincidence!".
LB> What, did he forget his dad was in the hospital??
Our father (Mark's and myself) is currently in a nursing home...in a
somewhat pitiable state of semi-consciousness. He still realizes pain,
but it is doubtful that is aware of much else. He had another stroke in
the hopital a day before they chipped him out to the home that left him
in this final state. This has been particularly rough on Markie, as he
lived at home with the folks for almost 30 years, prior to his marriage
last year.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Brother Daniel wants you
|Date: 12 Jan 96 17:04:00
EID:4332 202c8880
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936a7
And Brave Sir David ran away, screaming "Brother Daniel wants you"!
DW>> Except Hell...
JB> I didn't think that was a place ON earth.
DW> I take it you've never been to Texas?
There's a Hell, Michigan. Which is kind of redundant, considering
they also have Detroit. :)
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... Don't worry about Fermi, we can survive a nuclear blast - it's Detroit
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 14 Jan 96 09:20:01
EID:9145 202e4a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936a8
And Brave Sir Judith ran away, screaming "FOF"!
MH> doesn't let atheists harass Christians in the religion forums. (Not
JB> Atheists harassing christians on aol? Let's see what you can LOSE your
JB> account for there...using the word 'fundy', saying 'that's nuts' to
JB> some theory such as Prewett spouts here about JFK, asking for
Speaking of Prewett's "theory" - didn't the last pope who was
assassinated get a head wound, too? If so, wouldn't he (or any
other pope who suffered a head wound) be a more likely candidate for
being "the beast"? After all, more people around the world know and
care about popes than they do about American presidents of the past,
and would also be more likely to be impressed/to follow a
resurrected Pope than a returning JFK.
Of course, I suspect a poll of local Catholics (of which there are
many - Ontario in general has about 52% Catholics, (or folks who
attended the Catholic school system, at least) would probably reveal
that they care little about either and would probably think one
insane for asking such a question.
JB> references (even if you just want to look it up for yourself) IOW, the
JB> same stuff that will get you bounced from Steve Winter's echo.
JB> Things that will NOT lose your account...calling someone a 'godless
JB> heathen', 'hell-bound sinner' or 'atheist bastard'. Usually undeserved,
JB> as anyone who would utter something that WOULD deserve such a retort
JB> has already been booted...not JUST out of the forum, but off the
JB> service completely.
I hear something similar has gone/is going down on Compuserve. Any
verification of such a rumour?
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... Never knock on death's door. Ring the doorbell and run. He hates that.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS 1
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:02
EID:3672 202e5ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936a9
>>> Part 1 of 3...
And Brave Sir AL ran away, screaming "ASKING SILLY QUESTION"!
AS> But it's usually a willing act.
SA> Not always. Curses were always a popular thing to blame the change
SA> on. Magic-users, gods, the devil - you name it. Gratned, in the
SA> Middle Ages, deals with the devil were in vogue to some extent, but
SA> one could also piss off the devil enough for some reason to have him
SA> curse you. And early pagan tales usually involved curses by their
SA> respective pantheons - the most famous being Apollo cursing Lycaon
SA> and his company. For a long time, it was believed that the people
SA> of Acadia were ALL cursed because of this, and once every 9 years,
SA> they had to send one of their brethren to swim to an island - during
SA> the swim, the man would be changed to a wolf. If he could refrain
SA> from killing and eating a human over the 9 year span, he could
SA> return as a human. If not, he remained a wolf for the rest of his
SA> life.
AS> When I was young I wrote a short novel or novella called Lycaon,
AS> trying to make THE werewolf novel as Stoker made THE vampire novel
AS> with DRACULA. In it, the title character, was a Greek shipowner and
AS> wealthy, and were THE Lycaon and his sons, not killed by Deucolon's
AS> flood, and willing, even eager in what they did. I had lots of local
AS> color about Greece, which is pretty funny since I've never been there,
AS> culled from travel books. If I had to do it over again, of course, I
AS> would move Lycaon here and do only enough contemporary Greek
AS> background so as not to sounds like an idiot. I did rather like him,
Sounds intresting. Haven't seen the book, but I'll be sure to keep
an eyeball open for it. And I've been to Greece, so the details
might bring back a memory or two. :)
AS> though, despised by Zeus of the red hot lightnings...(BTW, wasn't it
AS> Zeus who transformed him into a wolf?)
Hm. Could have been; I was thinking Apollo probably because of his
association with a wolf-cult (caused out of confusion between the
similarity - in English script - between the words for "light" and
"wolf" in Greek. You might see references to Lycaon Apollo in some
mythology books .. but the usual explanation is that he was only a
god of light, and had little to do with wolves. The confusion comes
in from the words "Light - Leukos " and "Wolf -
Lukos - Lykos . In Greek script, it's a heck of
a lot more clear, at least if you read it properly, and not like
many "scholars" tended to do in the past, imposing English or Latin
pronunciations onto the letters.)
SA> The story about the werewolf who protected and raised a boy whose
SA> name was William, I think, and the rightful heir to a throne
SA> invovled involuntary lycanthropy. So, too, does the story of a
SA> priest who came across a wolf in the forest one day - the wolf
SA> implored the priest to come give last rites to his wife, who was
SA> dying of old age. The priest was frightened, so the wolf pulled
SA> back his skin to show he was really an old man, and explained they
SA> were cursed years ago. The priest acquiesced for whatever reason,
SA> and came to see the wife before she died, and absolved her. (No,
SA> the priest wasn't killed, either. The story just ends with the old
SA> man-wolf thanking the priest, and the priest going on his way.)
AS> Well, he WAS old. Maybe his fangs were loose or missing...
:) Well, the fellow did, by implication, seem awfully religious - at
least religious enough to insist on Last Rites for his mate. One
would be forced to assume that the couple was cursed, and did not
come to lycanthropy willingly. Unfortuantely, the story doesn't
bother to tell how they were cursed, or who cursed them, or why.
SA> The Navajo Indians also had a dichotomy between willing and
SA> unwilling lycanthropes - you could be cursed by a witch, or you
SA> ould willingly become a skinwalker. You also have the phenomenon
SA> of a bite causing lycanthropy, or an inadvertent scratch by the
SA> wolfsbane plant (which is commonly found as an ingredient in potions
SA> meant to cause it willingly.)
AS> Nothing like talking to an expert...
Heh. Though, I worry about myself sometimes, knowing all this.
SA> The Blackfoot tale of the Woman Who Ran With Wolves was sort of
SA> in-between, about a woman who got seperated from her tribe, and
SA> spent several years living with a wolf pack. Finally, the wolves
SA> told her to go home - the elk, they said, would take her there if
SA> she followed the herd. They also warned her that the cervids would
SA> try to make her stay with them. She did wind up staying with the
SA> elk for a while, but then returned to her village, where she wasn't
SA> quite accepted any more because of what had happened (presumably
SA> between her and the male elk) - so, in disgust, she returned to the
SA> wolves - as one. She ran away from the village, howling and
SA> gradually changing form, never to be seen again. (I _think_ it's
SA> Blackfoot, anyway.) Of course, that's not so much of a werewolf
SA> story as it is a statement on how unaccepting humans can be - the
SA> wolves told her to go home because they thought it best for her, not
SA> because they didn't like her company any more - but it does include
SA> the element of shapechanging.
AS>
AS> Reminds me of a lot of feral child stories, actually.
Mm. Though she was older when seperated from her tribe. Most Wild
Child stories have the individual being raised by wolves from a very
early age. Interestingly enough, the documented cases (the most
frequently cited being that of Amala and Kamala) seem to involve
autistic children - who were perhaps abandoned, or wandered away
from home. The case of Amala and Kamala, however, is very, very
ambiguous - the man who adopted (and studied) them, Rev JAL Singh,
probably did not find the girls at all - they were apparently most
likely brought to him. Other children were supposedly found playing
near wolf dens, leading to the assumption (based also on their
behaviour) that the wolves had raised the kids. However, the
explanation most offered is that autistic folk have an attraction to
canines, especially large ones - but you'd know more about that than
I would.
AS> Right. Is there anything in the description in common which
AS> distinguishes it from a normal wolf attack? (Ignoring for a moment it
AS> is abnormal for wolves to attack humans....)
SA>
SA> Only that they were supposed to be extraordinarily vicious, the
SA> animals bigger than your normal European wolf (which, presumably,
SA> the people would have noticed) and the phenomenon of repeated
SA> attacks by apparently the same animals over a period of time. Since
SA> werewolf-belief was still strong at the time, that alone would have
SA> been enough to suggest "werewolf".
AS> Right. I remember these series of stories by Poul Anderson in a world
AS> where magic worked, where the husband was a werewolf and the wife was
AS> a witch. When he changed into a werewolf, it was a BIG wolf, because
AS> conservation of energy/matter still held, so a 200 lb. man became a
AS> 200 lb. WOLF, which is HUGE for a wolf.
It's bloody ENORMOUS. And yes, it is a common belief that size
doesn't necessarily change - which runs concurrent with the belief
in certain parts of Europe that werewolves are distinguished by
having no tail (humans don't have one, after all, and have nothing
which could turn into one from the point of view of European
peasants.) This would be an even more terrifying aspect of
lycanthropy, considering that one of the ways to diagnose the
difference between a dog and wolf is by observing how the tail is
held. Dogs generally hold their tails up, and have a slight to
pronounced curl in them; wolves don't. Without a tail, it would
presumably be difficult for a farmer to make a spot-identification.
SA> Also, I have a reference here which claims the people described the
SA> Beast as being red (not a colour phase of European wolves), covered
SA> in scales, and had a "mouth the size of a lion's." That should tell
SA> one something right there. If the colouration was indeed red,
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS 2
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:03
EID:3732 202e5ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936aa
>>> Part 2 of 3...
SA> however, they couldn't have been European common wolves (Canis lupus
SA> lupus). The scales are an interesting addition, though, aren't
SA> they?
AS>
AS> Oooohhh. A scaled red wolf with a mouth the size of a lion's. Make a
AS> good fantasy or sf creature.
It'd be right up there with the cameleopard, the griffin and the
glatisant.
AS> Hmmm. Hybrids by large dogs? That might explain their lack of fear
AS> for men. They might have even been reared by a solitary man who REALLY
AS> liked his privacy, and when he died, turned to the only way of getting
AS> food they knew...other men.
SA>
SA> It's possible. Attack dogs usually wind up attacking anything that
SA> moves. And hybrids, raised incorrectly, do wind up with an unstable
SA> mix between lack of fear and the hunting instinct.
AS>
AS> Right. It would explain a lot.
That would have gotten me flamed over on alt.wolves, but hey. :)
The problem is usually with the people who raise such animals,
rather than the animal itself; and way back then, dogs weren't much
more than hunting or guard tools, just as pit bulls and whatnot are
treated by scumbags today.
AS> True. But of course, how many of them report SEEING the
AS> transformation? It's odd how universal the were-motif is....humans
AS> changing into animals to prey upon other humans.
SA> I'm sure some would, if only to garner attention for themselves.
SA> Given how story-telling was once highly valued - whether the story
SA> was true or not - if someone could tell a story, and tell it
SA> convincingly, people would listen and perhaps believe themselves.
SA> It's kind of a lost art, now - we have TV to bring us stories
SA> indiscriminately, yet the TV can't listen to OUR stories. And if it
SA> seems hard to believe that anyone would believe something that you
SA> or I would peg as a tall tale, don't forget that people today, in
SA> North America, believe the X-files is true (or based on truth, at
SA> least.) Look how that "BLue Council" thing took off over on I_UFO,
SA> as well. If people are predisposed to believe in something, be it
SA> werewolves, UFOs, miracles, etc, and someone with a knack for
SA> spinning a yarn comes along, they WILL fall for what they hear, and
SA> pass it along themselves - and perhaps even claim that THEY were the
SA> witnesses. And they might even be able to convince themselves it's
SA> true, just by wanting it to be so. I've systematically blocked out
SA> areas of my own memory - it wouldn't be so hard for me to put "false
SA> memories" in the blank spaces. I don't see where it would be
SA> difficult for anyone else to do the same.
AS> Storytelling as a source of Self-Hypnosis, eh? Could be. Or if I
AS> might make a better suggestion...most dreams are rambling things, but
AS> many of us have had a few dreams that are quite explicit and coherent.
AS> If we weren't assured by others around us they didn't happen, we might
AS> believe them as part of our WAKING experience. Many ghost stories are
AS> probably of that origin.
It's possible; especially since if one recounts a ghost story to a
group of people, someone else is bound to chime in with "Yeah, I saw
one, too" and then others will recount any weird experience they may
once have had that seemed ghost-like, convincing the original teller
that his "dream" may have had some substance after all. Same goes
for UFOs. Werewolves and vampires probably aren't that common any
more .. not techie enough for today's society, and seemingly a
product of the dusty past. Ghosts and UFOs are still pretty "hep",
though, judging from current TV shows .. angels, too. I
notice there are shows about those on TLC, no less.
SA> As for the universality of the motif, it's not. In China, they
SA> believe that were-foxes are the reverse of other wereanimals. The
SA> fox, being a magical being, turns into a human (usually female, also
SA> a reverse of the usual wereanimal story, which usually involves
SA> males) to seduce men. They live for 500 years, but can be brought
SA> back to life at the end of it, along the lines of a phoenix. There
SA> are a great many Chinese stories of a man who marries a beautiful
SA> woman, only to find out she's a fox in disguise, using the power of
SA> enchantment to delude the fellow so he doesn't listen to any
SA> warnings of others who might know the truth. Chinese werefoxes
SA> aren't necessarily evil; in many cases, they come across as rather
SA> pathetic, lonely beings who yearn for companionship or simply fall
SA> hopelessly in love with the man in question. Chinese werefoxes
SA> rarely kill their targets - they love them too much to do so. They
SA> might kill anyone who tries to interfere, but that, too, seems to be
SA> rare in the tales. They're very wonderful stories - they'd make a
SA> great animation, even a half-hour one.
AS> Was not aware of that about the Chinese werefoxes. Fascinating.
They are interesting; and they're tragic, romantic figures as well.
Very appealing, though the genre hasn't seem to have caught on
here.
SA> Japanese fox-daemons, however, are another story. They, too, can
SA> take human form, but are always mischevious or even malicious, and
SA> householders seek to protect themselves from foxdaemons, who may
SA> also sometimes act as bothersome house imps, or bring total disaster
SA> on the family. If you're really unfortunate, you can also be
SA> possessed by these beings. Some symptoms of fox-possession include
SA> overeating, talking gibberish (take note, Wallis - the next time you
SA> go on about 'speaking in tongues', I'm going to see about
SA> administering the treatment for foxdaemon possession, which includes
SA> fasting, administering pepper to the eyes, nose, and mouth, a
SA> rubdown with red-hot sticks and holes pierced in the body. People
SA> usually die from this treatment, but hey. At least you won't be
SA> possessed any more.) and worrying about one's face getting longer.
SA> People who keep foxes are believed to be sorcerers, out to do
SA> mischeif on the community.
AS> Considering most foxes' habits of raiding other yards, they may have
AS> a point...
Sure. If the folks in the neighbourhood are raising chickens or
other small livestock, they'd have a basis for worry right there, if
the foxes got away.
SA> In the same vein, going back to the Navajos, they frown on people
SA> who keep coyotes, as the coyote isn't a very positive character in
SA> their mythoi. I've heard of one desert zoo run by these folk, and
SA> they have a sign warning people not to look the captive coyote in
SA> the eye, for fear of getting possessed or harmed in some way. I
SA> heard about this, since it was charged that said coyote was also
SA> treated very badly in this roadside zoo (which aren't known for
SA> having great conditions for even native animals in the first
SA> place.)
AS> Do they have a more negative view of Coyote the Trickster than many
AS> of their surrounding tribes?
They would seem to; Coyote seems to me to be more of a devil in
Navajo tales than a clever helper. Of course, Coyote seems to be a
rather ambiguous fellow in several tribe's mythologies, but the
Navajo seem to emphasis his negative traits more than anyone else.
SA> Going back to universality, the interesting thing is that animal/man
SA> transformations (in whatever direction) are worldwide - even Pacific
SA> Islanders and Australian aborigines had tales of people turning into
SA> kangaroos or dolphins or some such. It's a belief as wide-spread as
SA> god-beliefs - and at least as old. One of the cave paintings in
SA> France is of a half-man, half-deer like creature, and no one's
SA> really sure if it's supposed to depict a shaman in his garb, or an
SA> actual wereanimal of some sort. I think it's probably a mixture of
SA> both. They may have believed the shaman really became that animal
SA> when he put his stuff on, just as some Kwakiutl, Crow, and Blackfoot
SA> tales describe men turning to wolves or other animals by donning
SA> masks and dancing around a fire. I've come across reference, too,
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS 3
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:04
EID:f7f3 202e5ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936ab
>>> Part 3 of 3...
SA> to early Babylonian beliefs in werewolves created by sorcerers, but
SA> I'm not sure how reliable said references are. It seems to be part
SA> and parcel of some sort of very uncommon semi-New-Ageish belief
SA> system that claims pedigree back to said sorcerers. (Toronto's
SA> quite the place. You can find any manner of weirdness there if you
SA> look hard enough.) The thing is, folks who did participate in
SA> mask-ceremonies themselves believed they became the animal they were
SA> impersonating - which is why the ritual "worked" for whatever
SA> purpose it was meant for. All the participants truly believed in
SA> shapechanging, just as much as participants in church all believe in
SA> their communion with their god.
AS> Which has to do with the three laws of Magic anthropologists have
AS> discovered which is in common behind the belief systems of most
AS> magical systems...in this case that the quality of something (such as
AS> a wolfskin) is still linked to the original even after it is parted,
AS> or that something similar to the thing trying to be focused on is
AS> linked with the original (like a voodoo doll).
Sympathetic Magic. Very common and widespread amongst animists and
whatnot .. it's probably the earliest form of magic/religion there
is. And, it's echoes persist - who hasn't accused someone of making
it rain because they washed their car or watered their lawn? :)
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... "It's MR. Banana Beak to you, Fuzzy!" - Zazu
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: 2 ASKING SILLY QUESTION
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:05
EID:1b39 202e5ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936ac
And Brave Sir AL ran away, screaming "2 ASKING SILLY QUESTION"!
AS> If there had been as good a documentation and attestation...say,
AS> twelve people seeing a werewolf change from wolf to man AT THE SAME
AS> TIME, and then willing to undergo prersecution and/or death for that
AS> belief....then it would be comparable. But surely, there is a
AS> difference between twenty thousand seperate sightings of werewolves,
AS> ghosts, or for that matter, UFOs in isolated settings (although there
AS> were villages who thought whole other villages were werewolfs---but
AS> they don't claim to have SEEN them all change AT THE SAME TIME) and
AS> seeing an impossible thing, all together, with each other to back you
AS> up, for the single incident. (Like Jesus appearing to the disciples
in
AS> a group, the same time He invited Thomas to feel the wounds.)
I don't see what the difference is, especially when one considers
tribal ceremonies. In those, you have an entire tribe (or at least
all the men in the tribe) gathered, and all would agree that the
masked dancers (including the dancers themselves) transformed into
whatever they were trying to imitate. They certainly would have
claimed to SEE it, all at the same time - and likely more than once.
As for being persecuted, well, tribes were persecuted in general by
European immigrants, though mainly for being "pagan" than any
individual practices they may have had. And those CLAIMING to be
werewolves in Europe, of course, were definitely persecuted and
killed (or, later, sent to places like Bedlam.) Nowadays, anyone
claiming to see or be one would of course be sent to the Happy Home
- even if they were part of a group who claimed to see it.
As for UFO sightings, I recall a news story which came over the
wires years ago about a Russian town that claimed to be witness to
not only a sighting, but a murder. Hundreds claimed that a UFO
hovered overhead and zapped some teenager into ash for no apparent
reason.
If anything, however, repeated sightings by hundreds or thousands or
millions of people over millenia of such creatures, world-wide, is a
lot more substantial as far as it goes than a mere 12 people who
once claimed to see what we might call a zombie 2,000 years ago.
Or, rather, a claim that 12 people saw the thing. I'm not sure at
all why I should take the word of actually _4_ people on the event
(since, of course, there are only 4 gospels, written by supposedly
eyewitnesses .. the other 8 don't seem to speak for themselves) over
50 or 100 Kwakiutl braves on what happens when dancers don masks and
dance about a fire every year or so. Of course, the question arises
- what the hell did they use as combustables in those fires? :)
SA> in the ressurection has been around for 2,000 years - belief in
SA> shapeshifting may have been around for as much as 35,000 years, if
SA> the cave painting is to be taken at face value. Surely someone
SA> along the course of that time would have noticed that people don't
SA> change into animals (or vice-versa) - unless enough people also
SA> claimed to witness or actually do it, or participated in ceremonies
SA> that compelled them to believe in it wholeheartedly. As for the
SA> current believers in lycanthropy in modern cities, I don't know why
SA> they believe any more than any Christian still believes in men
SA> resurrecting, but the two beliefs seem to be related quite closely
SA> in form, if not content. And people in wilder parts of eastern and
SA> central Europe still believe - so do probably Chinese peasants,
SA> African tribesmen, and who knows who else. South Americans still
SA> probably hold onto fears of jaguar-men as well.
AS> I feared jaguar-WOMEN when I was dating. I am NOT a fan of long nails
AS> on women. Can get quite painful at times.
:)
SA> It might all come down to wanting such to be true - it would be kind
SA> of neat to be able to change your form once in a while, at least to
SA> run around, if not to kill (though for some, that might be a
SA> tempting bit of it, too.) And people want eternal life, either
SA> physically or spiritually. Jesus is sort of a symbol of hope for
SA> the latter, where the wereanimal represents power, freedom, and
SA> perhaps immortality as well in some cases. A weak person can take
SA> comfort in the idea that he can become not only physically strong
SA> but also feared if he takes on the form of a wild animal; a person
AS> Oh, so THIS is the first part of the post. Some hundred posts in the
AS> packet later. Fido strikes again!
I don't think so; they seem to have come in order from what I
remember. But I decided to take a break in doing mail for a couple
of weeks, and it's been a while. I just HAD to go back and deal
with this stuff before getting seriously back into doing mail,
though. :) Anyway, that's why I didn't delete much; sorry about the
size, but I figured it'd be best to keep as much quoting as
possible, since my treatise was rather long and involved.
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... "That's no dickhead - that's Ned Kelly!"
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: DOOFUS...
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:52:06
EID:0aaf 202e5e80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936ad
And Brave Sir AL ran away, screaming "DOOFUS..."!
AS> Hmmm. The Nashville one has quite a number of them. Luckily.
SA> The 2nd hand bookshop has an interesting used sci-fi/fantasy
SA> section .. usually you can get stuff for spare change. The only
SA> drawback is, none of the books are in any sort of order, so you have
SA> to spend about an hour hunting out something that strikes your
SA> fancy. I've lucked out a couple of times, but more often than not,
SA> you wind up spending far too much time in the place. :)
AS> Mine is the opposite. Used books are at a PREMIUM about sf/fantasy,
AS> being little less than the new stuff. Lots of colleges and
AS> universities here, so there are a lot of imaginative youngers...i.e.,
AS> sf buffs.
Well, the BookMark (the second-hand place) has about the biggest sf
section I've seen in the city. We don't even have a place that has
a decent selection of RPG materials, either - the closest would be
the Sci-Fi Shop (which doesn't generally sell books - they mostly
sell movie and Star Trek paraphenalia), and there you have to ORDER
stuff .. if you don't mind waiting a few months. There are
apparently places in/around Detroit where such can be had, but
that's sort of a pain, too. Who wants to go to Detroit? :P
SA> My friend heard of it, and didn't really like it - said it was too
SA> clunky or some such. I suppose if it was done 'way back in 1980,
SA> though, it can't really be faulted for that. It sounds like it was
SA> a very early attempt at role-playing systems or some such.
AS> It was the first sf game (as opposed to fantasy) in RPG that I know
AS> of.
Hm. The first one I ever heard of was a Star Trek RPG back in '82
or so. Though my memory of the date might be off a year or two.
SA> As for New York, yeah, that would be quite the challenge. Did he
SA> have a problem with getting bored easily? :)
AS> Definitely. Looked just like Weird Al Yankowitz, too....
Oh, scary. :)
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... "Lord, thy one-liners are as good as your tricks!" - Rowan Atkinson
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: STEVEN-A LESSON IN HOMOPH
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:56:07
EID:5a75 202e5f00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936ae
And Brave Sir AL ran away, screaming "STEVEN-A LESSON IN HOMOPH"!
AS> And don't have ten thousand toys given to their brothers, too. It's
AS> hard to know where to put the toys after Christmas. We often send the
AS> extras to charities...
SA> Hehehehe. Yeah, things can get kind of crowded after a Christmas
SA> binge or two ..
AS> I'd like to tell you we didn't go overboard this year, but I nearly
AS> tripped twice over a toy today...
:) Hehehehehe.
AS> The royalties ought to make him happy. Trust me.
SA>
SA> If not, he can always send them to me. :)
AS>
AS> Don Rickles wouldn't send his royalties to Mother Teresa.
No, I suppose not. :)
AS> There's a Disney store in a nearby mall. Wonderful place to visit
AS> with the kids. But looking at the prices...wouldn't want to buy
AS> there.
SA> Yeah, I know. I remember the prices for stuff at Disney World (we
SA> kids - my cousin and I - had to buy souvenirs with our own money).
SA> I've never been in a Disney Store - there are none in Windsor, and
SA> one only opened up in Toronto after I moved the hell away from there
SA> - but I can just imagine the price-gouging.
AS> But they're so CUTE!! The kids love to walk by the windows, with
AS> Mickey, Goofy, and Donald all slowly acting out motions and then
AS> starting again, over and over and over...
Sort of like an old Hudson's Christmas window display, eh? Well,
just remember, the cuteness is the hook and your money the fish. :)
SA> Oh, I saw clips of "The HunchBack of Notre Dame" the other day - it
SA> looks rather interesting so far. The hunchback is appropriately
SA> ugly, at least. Boy, is he ugly. Even the Beast had a quality of
SA> animal handsomeness about him, physically, but ol' Quasimodo there -
SA> yikes. He looks like his hobby for the past 30 years has been
SA> chasing parked 18-wheelers. But then, Quasimodo is supposed to be
SA> handsome on the INSIDE, whereas the Beast had a horrible
SA> temprament.
AS> What is it about French stories of pretty women and horrible looking
AS> men?
Because French men are generally 'orrible looking?
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... "My head feels like a Frenchman's living in it .." - Blackadder II
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Consider...
|Date: 14 Jan 96 10:48:53
EID:675a 202e5600
MSGID: 1:128/203.0 30f96b39
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 604f17f8
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Linterah caught J.J. Cat Herding!
JH>> [Piano player stops playing, a hush falls over the saloon]
JH>> "Are yew sayin' I ain't a True HolySmoker?"
LW> If'n he is, he's dead wrong! I enjoy your provocative
LW> posts!
JH> He was genuinely puzzled (baffled would be an even better word) by
JH> the proliferation of supposedly "non-religious" topics in this echo
JH> (comics, old movies, anthropology, literature, cooking, radio,
JH> railroading, Cleveland, etc).
It does often seems that way on occasion, but what the hey!
JH> The reason why I fit in with this echo and in almost no other
JH> "topic dominated" echo is I can't talk about ANY of those subjects
JH> and not have religious topics eventually work their way into the
JH> dialog.
I know. This is _ideal_ topic area for you! Besides, like I said, I
enjoy your posts.
... I'm locked inside a chocolate factory. DON'T send help!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: A-viking on the cyber sea (1:128/203)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: It only hurts when I Spong.
|Date: 14 Jan 96 13:14:25
EID:deef 202e69c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 f64b560c
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 60826fe4
On (14 Jan 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to AL SCHROEDER...
JH> But we know of at least one very obvious example of a fusion
JH> between the tribal ethno-centric religion of the Jews and the
JH> more cosmopolitan world outlook of the Greeks and Romans.
JH> It's called Christianity.
JH> And in modern times we have the observance of Hanukkah. The
JH> history of it's observance as a major holiday happens to
JH> coincide with the time when Dickens and the retailers made
JH> Christmas into a Mighty Big Deal. Also, you will find it
JH> being either a minor observance or not observed at all in
JH> those parts of the world where the Eastern Orthodox callendar
JH> is used and Christmas is celebrated somewhat later in the
JH> year.
It's also problematic whether Jews are currently practicing
Judaism or not. How many in this country now keep kosher? That's
just one example. The Jews in this country, for the most part,
have pretty thoroughly assimilated. And those that haven't are
generally thought of as lunatic fringe. Living in the "melting
pot" we call "American" tends to do that to cultures. There are
probably more traditional, kosher-keeping Jews in Israel than in
anyplace else in the world, and even there, I'm not sure they are
in the majority.
... Hell hath no fury like the lawyer of a woman scorned...
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ARK
|Date: 14 Jan 96 13:21:12
EID:5acb 202e6aa0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 ca1bb8a2
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 60838f54
On (14 Jan 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Preston Simpson...
JH> JH>> service record to the public. BUT, the tale I heard
JH> JH>> recently claimed that he was in command of a submarine in
JH> JH>> WWI (did we even have subs
PS> I heard that he was aboard a destroyer during WWII.
JH> That concurs with the biographical notes about him in the
JH> back of Dianetics. For some reason I thought Hubbub was older
JH> than that. I thought Crowley had made a few references to him
JH> (Maybe Luke Clark has these handy), which would tend to make
JH> him older than the average WWII soldier's age of 25.
That was an average. If I remember correctly, they werr drafting
up to the age of 40.
... Creationist: "Why yes. Rome _was_ built in a day."
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Aryan National Front
|Date: 08 Jan 96 13:31:53
EID:e666 20286be0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e701
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 030c86f0
rj> If you ever get a chance to chat up one of Bill Riccio's boys
rj> (the leader of the Birmingham, AL-based Aryan National Front),
FR> I wonder if they class as either Pagani or Wicca. I'm sure to most
I'm pretty sure they're not Wiccan.
FR> people they do. As for 'chatting up' one of these clowns, only
FR> at a distance, man. I have a zero shit tolerance policy for racial
FR> bigotry and sex bigotry -- they're a couple of my bugaboos. I saw
FR> enough of these types in the Air Force -- 'course they weren't
FR> worshipping Odin. }:-}
Y'just sort of clap your hand over your face after a minute
and say, "Uh, yeah. Well look, izzat the time? I've gotta
get going now..."
rj> little fucking annoyances set my bloodpressure into the strato-
rj> sphere...
FR> Cut down on your salt intake. }:-}
If I could cut down on my "petty annoyances" intake, that would
be even better.
rj> Specifically, the ones that believe in
rj> the benevolence of Nature. LIE!
FR> I've never heard a Pagan or Wiccan make that claim, though.
Perhaps it's more common among SewAgers.
... Oxymoron: Microsoft Works.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: What would Miss Rand say???
|Date: 08 Jan 96 13:38:45
EID:32ff 20286cc0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e702
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 030c86f3
LW> He's not dead, but He died for you!
FR> Neat! "George Orwell" would be SO proud!
It's fascinating, in a morbid sort of way, to watch someone
whose mind is so fucked up they will contradict themselves
within six words because they can't think in chunks of time
and information that large. The added fact that the words
are spelled out on his screen only makes matters worse. I
honestly don't know how they even turn their machines on.
... fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Sexist Asshole for Christ
|Date: 08 Jan 96 13:43:16
EID:b3eb 20286d60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e703
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0311e0f6
DR> Well it's a known =FACT= that men are evil, vile creatures
DR> compared to women. I have the statistics to prove it. Look
DR> at the ratio of violent crimes commited by women and men.
rj> I guess you favor bigotry against blacks as well, since the
rj> statistics on violent crime don't do them many favors in
rj> the PR department either?
FR> Have you been watching the National Organization of Women and the
FR> problem that, oh, what's her name... Marilyn Kagan? caused when NOW
FR> tried to make woman battering a _racial_ problem based specifically
FR> upon these statistics?
I wonder why they would try to splinter the problem.
FR> NOW is making woman battering a racial problem -- a black problem --
FR> and Kagan made some comment about not having the time for blacks who
FR> would do that, saying that woman beating knows no racial boundaries.
Eh? Was she suggesting _not_ turning it into a racial problem,
or just not considering such cases?
FR> Also, I have to wonder if you honestly think stateing facts such as
FR> there being more Christians in prison than atheists is itself a
FR> bigotry. Are you willing to defend that position?
Not sure. How do you mean? Stating the facts isn't bigotry.
Making the prejudgment is.
... Fickt nicht mit dem Raketenmensch!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Received Threat / FBI
|Date: 08 Jan 96 13:48:22
EID:66c3 20286e00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e704
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0311e0f7
FR> That fact? That the United States engages in unjustified acts of war
FR> waged against innocent people -- usually farmers and peasents
FR> conscripted into service to fight the US by their despot leaders.
see below.
FR> I can't justify the slaughter of over 200,000 Iraqis just because
FR> their military leadership are tin-pot tyrants. Can you?
rj> That's more than half the reason things were so fucked-up
rj> socially in this country 25 years ago--that attitude.
FR> You couln't possibly be more wrong. The glorification of war started
FR> to come to an end some 35 years ago. Nationalism was no longer a
FR> justification for fighting in foreign lands for vague, ill-defined
FR> rhetoric of "saving democracy."
What I mean about the social problem is that the anti-war
crowd used to harass soldiers and spit on them because they
went to Nam. Just like the despots who send their peasant
farmers to fight for them (don't think_they_ haven't been
filled with a bunch of jingoistic crap, either), I don't
think the draftees felt they had much choice about going.
Rather than just confining the harassment to the decision-
makers in that quagmire, the anti-war element, caught up in
their own jingoism, just wanted to attack _anything_ they saw
as a symbol of that war.
FR> capable of selling their agenda to the American public. Rather than
FR> telling the American public that they're "fighting Saddam" to
FR> "reinstall democracy in Kuwaite," they'll have to admit they did it
FR> for cheap oil.
Of course. However, It sounded a lot like David used some words
that were deliberately offensive to a lot of people--not just a
cluster of armchair commandos with hawkish hardons. I just don't
see where _he_ thought the flame on him was so unjustified.
FR> Now I ___SUPPORT___ "human rights actions" in places like Bosnia
FR> except that I would rather like our government to clearly define their
FR> role.
Agreed. Actions without objectives are stupid; of course you
would _think_ our govt would learn that, but then that's also
why people keep re-electing them--because *voters* never learn.
They'll let the GOP plunge the social fabric into the shitter
again, and we'll have another Great Society to follow it.
... The Ronco Occamatic: slices and dices gods--it even juliennes beliefs
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christmas
|Date: 08 Jan 96 14:01:41
EID:b721 20287020
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e705
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a603
rj> Jesse makes me think more and more that William Kunstler
rj> really didn't die, and he's just hiding out in Florida under
rj> an assumed name.
FR>
FR> Yeah? Forgive my ignorance; I don't know how William Kunstler was.
He was the lawyer who defended the Chicago 7, the World Trade
Center bombers, and a host of every violent far-left radical
fringe group or activist since the '60s. He wouldn't defend
any rightwingers--only lefties.
But mainly what I know of him is that he didn't always win his
cases. Those he lost he attributed to "corrupt legal system,
blah blah blah", "racial bigotry blah blah blah", etc. He
would deny such-and-such a court's legitimacy and right to
exist--I think that was the blamegame he pulled at the Chicago 7
trial. Things like that remind me of Jesse's willingness to
start the shit with asinine statements, then he asks for defi-
nitions, and when you give him an argument he has to think about,
he just "refuses to dignify it" and skulks off.
... Excuse me, I gotta go kill a Care Bear.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ATHIEST AGAINST ABORTION
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:01:21
EID:125f 20288020
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e707
MH> Try searching in the Constitution for a reference that specifically
MH> guarantees the right to abortion.
JB> The case was decided under the right to privacy that the Constitution
JB> DOES guarantee, and the premise that what a woman and her doctor
JB> decide is covered under that right of privacy.
I guess that would be under my fave: #4.
... and the dog walks up to the tree...a-a-and...he...PIDDLES ON IT!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Received Threat / FBI
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:21:47
EID:66c3 202882a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e708
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e7f
FR> I hate to see people die on _all_ sides (unless it's Christians
FR> murdering Christians and they don't drag their children into it, of
FR> course. I can think of no better way to _save_ lives by keeping
FR> warring Christanic fractions from unification.)
The problem is, they lust to send their children off to
slaughter. It makes them feel "godlike".
FR> The best way to save lives is to make war painful. For the United
I think Oscar Wilde said it best. The way to make war unpopular
is to make it unfashionable.
... If I have any belief, it is that faith is a dangerous thing. --RBJ
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: A Visit 4/4
|Date: 08 Jan 96 20:47:22
EID:814e 2028a5e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e709
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e86
JT>> S & M and B & D
JT>> Married, Will Cheat
JT>> Sex Toys
lc>> How christian.
FR> And note the fact that they're _local_ forums? They're not
FR> FidoNet forums, at any rate. "Christian Miller" would
FR> appear to be a heathen out trolling.
jjh> I saw nothing to indicate he is a "heathen" or White Punk On Dope
jjh> Pagan. The impression I got is that he is exactly what he appears
jjh> to be: someone who is a believer due to societal or family
jjh> expectations and is somewhat less than comfortable with his
jjh> religion.
FR> It's the message areas on his/her board that make me wonder. If
FR> he/she is really the rabid fundy that we see here on HolySmoke, I
FR> wouldn't expect his/her BBS to have those forums.
What I find unusual is that, in the two years I've been on
this echo, and of all the fundies whose BBSs anyone should
choose to call on a whim, why it would be the fundy with a
list of sexchat groups.
Of course, any accusation that JJ would've made the whole thing
up was instantly nullified by Miller's immediate admission and
subsequent backpedaling.
... Religious error: (A)tone (R)epent (I)mmolate?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Rice's obvious better education
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:34:01
EID:9f82 20288440
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70a
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8a
fl> Actually, my all time favorite philosopher is
fl> Neitzsche! His book: "The Antichrist" is a classic!
FR> I've got several of compilations of his work. I don't like them
FR> because it seems he has a religious following who have deified him and
FR> made his work scripture. Hell, one of the books I have even numbers
FR> the sentences.
Actual sentences, or paragraphs? Sounds like the section of
maxims in "Beyond Good And Evil". Funny you should mention
his followers and scripture, seeing as how even Nietzsche
himself admitted his arguments weren't based on logical analysis,
but that he preferred a more emotional, aphoristic style to
persuade his reader.
He had some good observations and even a few good conclusions,
but what's interesting is that all the Nazi propaganda that
was supposedly engendered by his philosophy had nothing to do
with Nietzsche at all. Nietzsche was very much opposed to
anti-Semitism--it was actually his sister who "edited" his papers
after he was either dead or incapacitated, because she and her
husband were strongly anti-Semitic. And 'twas she who passed
it all along to the Nazis.
Nietzsche would've taken a cursory glance at the Nazi Party
and pronounced them Untermenschen. Pure slave morality, under
the guise of a master race.
... fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Life in the Twilight Zone
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:41:09
EID:bb02 20288520
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70b
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8b
fl> "I call christianity the one great curse, the one enormous and innermost
fl> perversion, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are
fl> too venomous, too underhand, too underground and too petty- I call it
fl> the one immortal blemish of mankind." -Nietzsche
FR> Perhaps he didn't encounter fundy Muslims. I would count _all_
FR> so-called "monotheistic" religions as great diseases upon humanity.
FR> And of course he never met a $cientologist.
"B-but...we're not a religion! We're a TECHNOLOGY!" 8-P
... Anananany: The inability to stop spelling 'banana' once you've started
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Helping fundies
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:47:08
EID:343a 202885e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70c
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8c
fl> Good point! Also, there is always the odd chance that one
fl> or two of these fundies will actually "see the light" of day,
fl> and come to our side. Yes, I know... Slight chance, but...
FR> Do you think there's really any chance of helping anyone?
fl> Well, Styx tells me that a few fundies here on HS have seen the light.
FR> I don't know about that. I do know that ex-fundies find their reasons
FR> for walking away justified in the postings of current fundies in this
FR> forum.
I think I've seen two believers give testimony in my stay
here. One rejected God altogether and the other had his belief
seriously crippled. I know that before 'Smoke, I would've been
fairly comfortable with deism or pantheism, but it's quite
apparent now that even that formality is entirely unnecessary.
... "Dear Diary: My teen angst has a body count."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cops Take Fred Rice Down! Twice!
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:53:53
EID:53a4 202886a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70d
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8d
FR> It was the knife which drew the most concern. The NRA stickers showed
FR> that I at least kept abrest of the laws and, most probably, the safety
FR> aspects of firearms (I get safety coursed every other year to remain
What's this new woman who's heading the NRA like? Is there
going to be a change from Wayne "Jackbooted Thugs" LaPierre,
or more of the same: going way into the red to buy influence
on the Hill, and alienating a lot of real gunowners?
FR> Perhaps the fear of lunatics willing to slice someone with a knife is
FR> greater than a lunatic with a gun. Someone who's willing to step in
FR> close with a knife and slice someone has _got_ to be a special crazy
FR> over and above a coward with a gun standing across the street or
FR> diving by in a speeding car.
And I understand people freak out worse over a crazy with a
straightrazor. Tricky things, but someone'll figure anyone
crazy enough to brandish one of those probably knows how to
use it--and draw a gallon of blood in the process.
... "I'll be with you in a moment, I'm just sealing some fates."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Look at this one
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:03:55
EID:808b 20288860
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70e
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8e
FR> My money is on him/her being a troll. The BBS he/she runs has sex
FR> talk forums on it, after all. That doesn't seem consistant with the
FR> rabid fundy image he/she is trying to depict.
Neither were Swaggart and Bakker.
... I think the phrase rhymes with 'clucking bell'.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: I,m still here
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:21:49
EID:96bf 20288aa0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70f
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147ea7
FR> By the way: Do you think you might be able to make it to a HolySmoke
FR> convention sometime this August if it's held somewhere hear Dallas?
That sounds like a plan. Not in competition w/DFest, though?
... If I have any belief, it is that faith is a dangerous thing. --RBJ
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christian criminals
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:26:56
EID:1abb 20288b40
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e710
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147eac
sq> Now, if you want to say "MOST Fundamentalist Christians,"
sq> I would probably be inclined to go along with that.
FR> I would rather continue to play the extremist. I agree with you,
FR> though, but this _is_ HolySmoke. Don't tell anyone I don't
FR> actually believe the extreme end of the spectrum that I pretend to.
I
Why say things you don't mean?
... "Bother," said Pooh as he dropped another rock in his crackpipe.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Satanist
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:48:37
EID:4ec1 20288e00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e711
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a5e6
> and if you are some white-lighter who wants to try to stomp my
> religion, all i can say is, COME GET SOME.
FR>
FR> Well, LaVey didn't include any deities in his rantings. My guess is
FR> you're religion is safe here but that you are probably an endangered
FR> species... cyberlly speaking, of course. No "Satanist" seems willing
FR> to stay here for long when he finds 'Smokers don't care about him.
I dunno--you might enjoy boxing with this nimrod.
... Support the coyote habitat..abandon cats in the country.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: news? on a honeymoon
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:57:41
EID:5146 20288f20
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e712
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a601
FR> During Winter Solstice on the 22'nd our family researched parallax and
FR> read from the holy Griffith Observatory magazine. And we
rj> Have I ever told you about how I celebrate the 27th of October?
rj> Battle of Hastings Day, where I drink like a Norman and wake
rj> up feeling like a Saxon the next day. The drink of choice is
rj> mugs of weissbier spiked with generous shots of apple brandy,
rj> to sort of symbolize the Norman invasion of the Saxon culture.
FR>
FR> That sounds, er, um, fun. }:-}
It is. All I need are some like-minded people with a genuine
interest in history to drink till we puke.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Waco jury foreman coments
|Date: 08 Jan 96 20:56:19
EID:e227 2028a700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e713
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a606
FR> Los Angeles actually played-back sounds taken from an appartment
FR> during a party from a LASER beam bounced off the windshield of a car
FR> off of the appartment complex's window, back to the car's windshield,
FR> then back to the satelite. KCET then played the computer segregated
FR> voice tracks of individual conversations pulled from the mix using
FR> what amounts to powerful electronic voodoo magic.
I take it they simply used the Doppler deviations from
the vibrations of the windowpane? That does seem almost
unbelievable. Sensitivity on that level isn't really
hard to imagine, since SETI equipment can pick up ET radi-
ation in the picowatt range. It's just the anomalous
readings, such as temperature changes which would alter
the windshield, or even a car door slam in the space next to
the car, not to mention something obvious like 22,000 miles
worth of atmospheric layers (or are we talking about low
orbit, which is still a couple hundred miles)--seems there'd
be a lot of things to queer readings.
You were talking about molecular sniffers--I read about one
that was to be sold for business use to sniff out drugs. It
didn't pay off, because the sensitivity was so high it *always*
registered coke and pot or whatever. Seems the thing could
detect something like 10 molecules in the space of 10,000 cu.ft.
... "Bother," said Pooh as he dropped another rock in his crackpipe.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jesse Christ Jones
|Date: 08 Jan 96 18:50:13
EID:0663 20289640
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e714
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a615
sq> the cross, his purple robe. As Jesse is unwilling to indicate
sq> otherwise, my opinion is that he comes in here and knowingly
sq> spouts off his nonsense so that he is further scourged by the
FR>
FR> In fact he's never even _TRIED_ to even address his percieved "evil."
FR> RC Query #1 awaits and he doesn't even _want_ to address the
FR> embarrassing problem.
FR> Oh he'll run our maze, yeah, and wear our throrns and pretend he's
FR> worthy of his "salvation," but I think we get more out of his leg
FR> kicks then he gets out of kicking for us.
I wasn't really sure about the little game the three of you
regularly play with him until last week when I tried getting
in on the fun. I "see the light" now--he's a gutless wonder
who does exactly what he accuses us heathens of doing--"scur-
rying for cover". How does he face himself in the mirror in
the morning?
... Weird's way is hard. --old Viking saying
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: CHRISTMAS
|Date: 08 Jan 96 19:33:35
EID:3595 20289c20
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e715
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 13de70a1
RJ> JJ> But don't those secular aspects have fairly solid roots in the
RJ> JJ> Christmas story itself? It still offends me to see nonbelievers
RJ> JJ> embrace these celebrations, which have their root in our faith,
RJ> JJ> while denouncing the faith itself.
RJ>
RJ> I can't tell you how much it truly offends me to see fundies
RJ> using computers, electricity, running water, and medicine,
RJ> while denouncing everything science provides for them.
JJ> I am not a fundamentalist. To the extent you mean to impose some
JJ> other meaning on the diminutive "fundy," I categorically reject it.
Perhaps if you to reject such asinine statements like "I wish
the heathens wouldn't defile our holy day", you wouldn't get
the tag applied to you quite so damn often.
RJ>
RJ> Grow up, little boy.
JJ> Such school yard taunts impress no one but yourself.
Funny how you seem to reply only to nothing but those. An
in-depth logical argument either seems to make you run away
in cowardice, or you lack the intelligence to understand it.
Which is it?
... Du ekelhafter Ausfluss einer syphilitischen Kamelvotze.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 08 Jan 96 19:44:20
EID:70c6 20289d80
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e716
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 0f033623
RS> Maria Russell wrote in a message to J.J. Hitt:
MR> More like, if He gave you everything, you'd be spoiled.
RS> You are deluded. Your god does not give you a damn thing. Anything
RS> that you have at this moment _you_ earned, got, or strived for. Give
RS> yourself some credit.
She can't even take credit for having the right to exist
without a man. How could you expect something more concrete?
... "Fuck it...who wants pie?" -- Dennis Miller
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Dan A. Post
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: [fwd] Pro-life Real A
|Date: 07 Jan 96 15:22:38
EID:8217 20277ac0
MSGID: 1:245/100 04126ff5
TID: GE 1.11+
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Richard Morrison <=-
RS>> Christians practice ritualized cannibalization. Are your proud
RS>> of
RM> Where do you get this stuff Ryan? :-D
DW> Out of the Bible you claim to have read:
DW> Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and
DW> gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this
do
DW> in remembrance of me.
Oh PLEASE! Can you not comprehend what you read? He (Jesus) was instructing
the apostles to eat BREAD, not human flesh. If you understood anything
of
the bible, or the covenant between man and God, you would understand that
this symbolizes the purification of mankind through Jesus.
Nowhere does Christianity substantiate cannibalism. Nowhere.
Another thing, what is the definition of life? According to you . . .
... What kind of animal is it that picks on helpless creatures?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: (1:245/100)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Former Soviet Union
|Date: 08 Jan 96 06:37:44
EID:dace 202834a0
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 13dfc536
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting FREDRIC RICE to JESSE JONES on 01-03-96
FR> * Originally to Marilyn Burge
FR>JcJ> Let's at least try to keep the record straight.
FR>
FR>We're ging to need an honest record player for that.
FR>
FR>jcj> I have never denied that the U.S. has had complicity
FR>jcj> in all manner of evil-doing.
FR>
FR>That's quite true. He just couldn't enumerate anything that was
FR>"evil" that the United States wasn't either equally guilty of or
FR>didn't surpass. After he tried several times to find something even
FR>marginally unique, he gave up and shut up.
FR>
FR>jcj> The debate, if it can be called that, was your revulsion at
FR>jcj> my suggestion that the totalitarian regime of the former
FR>jcj> Soviet Union (FSU for those Seminole fans out there) was evil
FR>jcj> in ways which the US is not.
FR>
FR>"Totalitarian..." Which country isn't subservient to the State? As
FR>you mention below, it's just a matter of degree. In any event
FR>Jesse's selective recall of events in the past is highly lawyer.
FR>(Yeah, I verbed it.) }:-}
FR>JcJ> Now, line up the people here who disagree with me on that.
FR>
FR> Oh dear. "Whaddal I do?
FR>He's trying to create division among us "evil" heathens!"
FR>
FR>mb> I'd say it's more a matter of degree than a difference of kind.
FR>
FR>Which is what all the participants in HolySmoke discovered together
FR>two years ago. We found that the Soviet Union didn't do anything the
FR>United States wasn't at least equally guilty of.
FR>
FR>mb> They had their Stalin and Gulag; we have our Reno and Waco.
FR>
FR>I would count Waco and Rubyridge as an equal tyranny to the work
FR>gulags except that I can't help but think Jesse's going to want to
FR>compare body counts. I also wouldn't equate Stalin with Reno. More
FR>like Stalin and George Bush or Ronald Reagan -- someone who's
FR>responsible for the death of uncounted brown people.
FR>
FR>mb> They had their government-stupidity-caused famines; we have our
FR>mb> government-stupidity-caused deaths from lack of affordable health
FR>mb> care.
FR>
FR>Their farm lands -- if they were made private -- could today feed the
FR>world; yet for political reasons they can't do that. They have to
FR>buy our grains. Their act is deliberate! And so was the slaughter of
FR>the herds which fed the native American indians.
FR>
FR>mb> They had their two-class society; we are quickly headed toward
FR>mb> a two-class society, with the middle class squeezed out by
FR>mb> lack of affordable education on the one hand, and a plethora of
FR>mb> fast-food jobs on the other hand.
FR>
FR>The politiburo in the Soviet Union was and is seperated from the
FR>harsh realities of the common man and woman -- they're unconnected
FR>and the annoyances of living (both great and small) are not their
FR>concern.
FR>The politicians we vote into office are also seperated from the
FR>comman man and woman though in not as great a way (except for the
FR>extreme religious zealot right.) We draw our government from the
FR>rich and powerful who either never had to worry about making their
FR>monthly rent bills else never had a financial worry in the past 40
FR>years -- when financial realities were quite different than today.
FR>
FR>mb> They had their pandemic despair brought on by a feeling
FR>mb> of hopelessness; we have our pandemic despair brought on
FR>mb> by a feeling of hopelessness.
FR>
FR>They have racial hatreds and fighting, we have some too.
FR>
FR>mb> Or do you deny that we have these social problems
FR>mb> and civil rights violations in this country?
FR>
FR>I doubt of the fuck is quite that far religious to deny it all. As
FR>you said (and as we discovered years ago) it's all a matter of
FR>degree. And there's not a Goat-damned thing most countries can
FR>bemoan another of while pretending to be crystal clean of like guilt.
FR>
FR>Jesse was just taught to unthinkingly spout-off the Pledge to the
FR>American flag and to believe everything the government's
FR>advertizements of the 1950's and 1960's told him. (Some of these
FR>advertizements are on PBS and even MTV during reviews of
FR>early government demonizations of gays and "communists.)
I have little interest in discussing the former Soviet Union, and
even less interest in discussing anything with you. What is troubling,
however, about your posturing here is the defiant inability or refusal
to make moral judgments. Everything you say about the USA above I agree
with. However, the Soviet Union imposed a command economy on its
millions of diverse peoples; maintained its government with no
democratic elections and with no constitutional guarantees of individual
liberties; forbid free speech and a free press; maintained order without
our cherished traditions of individual rights; and destroyed the
environment and the economy for the sake of military might. Ultimately
it collapsed of its own dead weight.
I am happy to discuss with anyone capable of dialogue what I see as
the moral shortcomings of the USA. But anyone who can make no moral
distinctions between the USA and the USSR is totally incapable of making
any meaningful moral judgment.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 01/07/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319
Some people act crazy; others aren't acting.
---
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 06 Jan 96 07:57:00
EID:cfde 20263f20
Dan Ceppa to Larry Sites on 01-03-96 21:17 re: REDACTED STORIES
-> On 12-30-95 10:49, Larry Sites got back to Kenneth Mcabee
KM>Are you so sure that the world is not stationary and the rest of ga
KM>does not rotate around us?
LS> That would require that the most distant light sources rotate DAIL
LS> speeds many gazillions of times that of light, DUMDFUCK!
DC>You realize, of course, that still does not approach the speed
DC>in which Kenny's head spins trying to make it all work.
At last, an example of "faster than light" speed movement. The reason it's
possible? His head is empty, ie no mass.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Women are like fires. They go out if left unattended!
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: TIMOTHY BOWLBY
|Sub: FAQ Material
|Date: 06 Jan 96 08:39:00
EID:2616 202644e0
Timothy Bowlby to All on 01-02-96 13:02 re: FAQ Material
TB>Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the
TB>commandment shall be rewarded. (Proverbs 13:13)
No shit!
Deu 17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken
unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God,
or
unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil
from Israel.
Deu 17:13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more
presumptuously.
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign
over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
God, "Do me or die!"
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * The mind grows by what it feeds upon.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: LES WILCOX
|Sub: Conference Guidelines
|Date: 06 Jan 96 08:43:00
EID:1a33 20264560
LES WILCOX to STYX ALLUM on 01-01-96 18:10 re: Conference Guidelines
SA>liberals and those with (hopefully curable) crucifixation are welcom
SA>in HOLYSMOKE.
LW> What is a "crucifixation"? Isn't that rather a bias comment?
LW> Les
LW>---
LW> * WaveRdr 1.0 [NR] * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COP
What is a "christian"? A licensed fucking thief! Biased on your
hypocritical actions. If jesus exists, is he proud of you?
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Lose your mind the Biblical way. Get "Hooked on Jesus"!
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: JOSE GOMEZ
|Sub: LET'S RUMBLE!
|Date: 06 Jan 96 08:46:00
EID:05fd 202645c0
Jose Gomez to All on 01-04-96 19:28 re: LET'S RUMBLE!
JG> Well, after being kicked off of the a_theist bulletin, I have
JG>finally been given access to HOLYSMOKE. Please, anyone with a comment
JG>on Christianity or theology, please respond. I, for one think that
JG>Jesus is Lord of ALL!! I want to talk about it.
Jesus ain't lord of shit unless you count deluded losers who can't live
without imaginary superfriends.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Grow your own dope. Plant a Fundy.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: MONTY GIBSON
|Sub: Profanity
|Date: 06 Jan 96 08:55:00
EID:21a9 202646e0
Monty Gibson to All on 01-05-96 01:02 re: Profanity
MG>So, what is profane and what is not in terms of language.
MG>--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - (Unregistered)
MG> * Origin: The Rapture BBS <>< Total Christian Support ><> (1:377/11.0)
Christians who steal shareware? Oh, you were talking about words not
actions. For your consideration:
Area # 233 HOLYSMOKE 06-17-95 11:48 Message # 5
From : LARRY SITES
To : All RCVD
Subj : No more cussing
Since we may be legally required to clean up our electronic language, I
thought I'd post a few tidbits about the history of cussing. From
_Freethought History_ issue 1, "No cussin' allowed" by Elizabeth Gerber.
Apparently the Reformation also resulted in greater attempts to abolish
profanity circa 1600. Laws were implemented to carry out the 3rd
commandment prohibition about taking gods supposed name in vain. I've
personally never been able to determine if this refers to inciting god to
damn things, or damning god, or both. The Cockney "Gorblimey" or "blimey"
=
God blind me.
Many of the banned words, in addition to names of deity, relate to the body
and its functions. The earthy vocabulary of Chaucer was acceptable but by
the time of the King James bible, "shitten" was converted into "dung" while
"piss" was ok till recently. Shakespeare never used the choice Chaucerian
words such as erse = arse = ass, fart, quent = cunt, shitten or even piss
in his plays. But then profanity in the theater was made a crime in 1606.
But Billy did make a pun on the French "con" in the French lesson scene
in
_Henry V_ and even had Malvolio spell out the taboo word in _Twelfth Night,
ie "this by my lady's hand. These be her C's, her U's and (N) her T's and
thus she makes her great P's."
Prick apparently had a tender connotation to Billy. "The dial is now upon
the prick of noon", _Romeo & Juliet_. "He that sweetest rose will find/
Must find love's prick and Rosaline", _As you Like It_. He hid profanity
by
elision, eg 'sounds or 'zounds = god's wounds, 'sblood = god's blood, and
'ods pittikins = god pity. The common British intensive "bloody" may be
derived from the god's blood expressions.
"Damn" is first noted by Joan of Arc who referred to English soldiers as
"Goddem" - no doubt because it was their favorite expression. Billy freely
used "damn". The Hollywood production code of 1932 stated "pointed
profanity, this includes the words God, Lord Jesus Christ - unless used
reverently - hell, s.o.b., damn, Gawd or every other profane or vulgar
expression, however used, is forbidden." Gable had to get a special
dispensation for the now famous "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn!"
To "bugger" is of course to sodomize, and in the 16th century the epithet
"buggerer" appears most often in religious tracts written by Protestants
attacking Catholic clergymen. Dylan Thomas had the last laugh on the BBC
when they produced a performance of _Under Milk Wood_ on the high brow
Third Program. The name of the Welsh village in the poem was Llareggub,
which makes rather interesting reading, read backwards.
And now the fundis have convinced government to return to the past by
making it illegal to communicate on the net of the future "any comment,
request, suggestion, proposal, image, or other communication which is
obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or indecent, with intent to annoy,
abuse, threaten, or harass another person". I guess old Billy and Chaucer
will have some of their works removed from the net to protect the kiddies.
------------------------------------------
Fuck you and the Wholly Babble you rode in on.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * I am alpha and omega, Bible. We are "Q"!, Star Trek NG.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: MONTY GIBSON
|Sub: Homosexuality? You know
|Date: 06 Jan 96 09:08:00
EID:ea2b 20264900
Monty Gibson to All on 01-05-96 01:10 re: Homosexuality? You know
MG>LEV 18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
MG>detestable.
MG>29 "'Everyone who does any of these detestable things--such persons
mu
MG>be cut off from their people.
MG>20:13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of the
MG>have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood
wi
MG>be on their own heads.
You left out a few:
Lev 18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to
uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
Lev 18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her
nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
Lev 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife,
to defile thyself with her.
Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire
to
Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits,
and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face
against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
Lev 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be
surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood
shall be upon him.
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife,
even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer
and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Lev 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and
shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath
uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from
among their people.
Lev 20:25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and
unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your
souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing
that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.
Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a
wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones:
their blood shall be upon them.
Unless you observe all those rules too, you're just another fucking
christian hypocrite.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Our OS which art in CPU - DOS be thy name .....
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: DICK HOLM
|Sub: Re: nde's
|Date: 06 Jan 96 09:45:00
EID:113f 20264da0
Dick Holm to Larry Sites on 01-04-96 09:56 re: Re: nde's
LS> He's wrong. Ignorant savages inability to distinguish between drea
LS> and reality is the basis for religions. Note that this explains B
LS> deity oriented and ancestor worshiping religions. How does it fee
LS> worship the product of a savage's fetid meal induced nightmare?
DH> Religion began, not with dreams, but with fear. As humanity developed
DH> from the animal, and as rationality recognized that fear has a cause,
DH> humans attempted to control that which caused the fear.
Fear might be the motivator. Dreams provided the gods, etc for the object
of fear.
DH> The next stages are all found in the bible, where one god is supreme
o
DH> other gods, to where the other gods are reduced to lesser beings (ange
DH> with only one God.
Some asian religions have no gods as such. They worship their ancestors
as
the supernatural causes of the unexplained/feared. Dreams provided the
original basis for associating the supernatural with departed but not
forgotten ancestors.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * I am Avatar of Borg. Prepare to be discreated.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: ANTHONY GRIGOR-SCOTT
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION
|Date: 06 Jan 96 09:50:00
EID:4bc1 20264e40
Anthony Grigor-Scott to David Hilling on 01-04-96 00:13 re: AN INTERESTING
SITUATION
DH> "Myth" of the Holocaust?
AG>I agree with you, but not with your filthy language. The Spirit that
AG>in Moses is not is you. You really are quite vulgar. Your language betr
AG>your character.
And your dumbfuck beliefs betray YOUR character or more preciesly, lack
thereof, christian scum.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Xtianity n. Crucifixion fiction.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
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|From: Asmodeus
|To: Luke Clark
|Sub: Re: Satanist
|Date: 08 Jan 96 19:12:44
EID:3f53 20289980
You said before that you were a Thelemite. If you wish to say, what are
your
beliefs? And when I refered to the drug addicted, animal killers not being
Satanists, I simply meant that I believe my religion to be better, so I
call as
I see it. These people call themselves Satansts, but doing so is as correct
as
those so-called Christians, whose actions show nothing of what they say
they
believe in, like they think their bible applies to all except them. I know
many Satanic cults exist, but It is only my opinion that they are inferior
to
my religion. Perhaps this is Setian of me, but if you know of anything
that I
believe in, you probably know that I view myself as better than anyone else.
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
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|From: Asmodeus
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Re: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 08 Jan 96 19:32:00
EID:1e05 20289c00
** Quoting John Prewett to Asmodeus **
J> As> What keeps all you white-lighters clinging to your religion?
J>
J> What's a "white-lighter religion"?
J>
J> [my guess is that you refer to the "white light" some people
J> claim to see during OOB experiences, but I'd rather you state
J> what religions you refer to]
J>
J> As> I see not what could do so, as there is no logical foundation
J> As> for any of these religions you practise.
J>
J> I have more reason to believe and heed the NT Jesus Christ,
J>
J> than I have to heed [for instance] you.
J>
J> As> My religion, however, is totally logical, and does not deny man's
J> As> carnal desires or the intellect as these white-ligter religions do.
J> As> It holds these as objects of celebration.
J>
J> As> I practise all of the so-called sins as much as possible, .....
J>
J> lieing ? theft ? murder ? infliction of pain on others ? selfishness
?
J>
J> As> because they all lead to emotional, mental, or physical gratification.
J>
J> IOW- You're a violent self-centered pig. OK.
J>
J> As> I do not look forward to a glorious afterlife, ......
J>
J> That figures.
J>
J> As> ..... because if i were to waste my time doing so
J> As> i would perish amidst plenty.
J> As> My golden rule is 'do unto others as they've done to you',
J> As> instead of that other which is so incompetently practised
J> As> by so many of today's society. I do not believe in 'an eye for
J> As> an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. I follow a saying that goes more
J> As> like 'an eye for a limb, a tooth for a head'. [--------]
J>
J> Think ya got that backward. Think about it.
J>
J> WBW, John
J> --- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
J> * Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
J> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 3615/50 51
I gotta reply like this because this board has some falken software that
doesnt
allow partial quoting or deletion of text or anything like that.
#1 white-lighter--person who is a practitioner of any 'holy' religion.
#2 you have no reason to hed me at all. I seek to cause you no harm :)
I am
simply here to have fun speaking with individuals on religious subjects.
#3 lieing, theft, murder, infliction of pain? Only on those who deserve
it.
I frown upon senseless violence.
#4 violent? only when I must be. Self-centered, of course. Pig, although
I do
not consider gluttony a sin, I would hardly call myself a Pig.
#5 Yes, that does figure if you think about it. Where is the proof of
a
'heaven'? I see none.
#5 Yes, i did get that backward. Please excuse my momentary lapse. My
mind
was consumed by other things at the moment.
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
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|From: Asmodeus
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Satanist
|Date: 08 Jan 96 19:35:42
EID:6111 20289c60
** Quoting Fredric Rice to Asmodeus **
F> > Hey, any Satanists in this echo? Not those cat-killing,
F> > drug-addicted fools
F>
F> Are there any of those? All I have in my archives are variations of
F> Christianity mixed with Cuban and Columbian religions doing stuff like
that.
F>
F> > but real Satanists, those who practice more or less along the
F> > lines of what LaVey was talking about? Write me if you are,
F> > and if you are some white-lighter who wants to try to stomp my
F> > religion, all i can say is, COME GET SOME.
F>
F> Well, LaVey didn't include any deities in his rantings. My guess is
you're
F> religion is safe here but that you are probably an endangered species...
F> cyberlly speaking, of course. No "Satanist" seems willing to stay here
for
F> long when he finds 'Smokers don't care about him.
F>
F> ~*~ If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease. -- Clark Adams
F>
F> ---
F> * Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
F> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 3615/50 51
I'll stick arond. I care not in the least if someone expresses no care
for
me. I got all the love I need of myself right here within me. If someone
wishes to add to that then fine. If not, oh well. Perhaps I am a minority,
but
I doubt very much if I am endangered.
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Pagans
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:30:20
EID:375c 2028bbc0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 0f1efa10
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 13dd2746
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Lynda Bustilloz:
JJ> Take a breath, Lynda. New Age experimentation with pagan
JJ> traditions does not make one a genuine pagan. Do you know of any?
Just like new age experimentation with christian traditions does not make
one a genuine christian.
---
* Origin: Yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye. (1:152/67)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fido
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:e7fb 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b9de04f7
JS> KW> "Ack" is the comic strip character Bill the
JS> KW> Cat's one major comment to anything.
JS> Uh huh...you know this 'Bill the Cat' character must be of regional
JS> fame. I have never heard of him.
Bill the Cat was a character in 'Bloom County'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: Bible Follies
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:02c3 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d88bda6f
RM>FL>And you do have evidence to back this up right?
RM>Of course and you do as well, all around and in every public library
and book
RM>store in the US probably... quit being lazy and using the most used
line of
RM>ignorance on this conference...
In other words, 'Fred, stop being lazy and research my position for me'.
Yech, Richard, are you this indolent in all aspects of your life?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Gross Ignorance: 144 Fundies
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: James Bethell
|Sub: Re: COINCIDENCE SCREW UP
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:5412 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0032c810
JB> cm> Death Cult?!?!?!? I don't need to kill anyone to satisfy my God.
8)
JB> FR> And yet you pretend to have jointed the cult that has a
JB> FR> long history of doing just that.
JB>Well, from what I've gathered, Christian doesn't have much support on
this
JB>echo, however, I can sympathize (and relate) to his situation (and I
*AM* in
JB>the dark on this one, not knowing exactly what faith Mr. Miller follows):
Christian is some form of xtian. The other xtians on this echo don't
seem to willing to embrace him, though.
JB>Unless you have spoken to, first hand, to a follower of his faith, it
is more
JB>than likely that your presumptions are based on what you might find in
the
JB>National Enquirer, or perhaps the fiction section of your local book
store.
James, have you ever tried to avoid speaking to proselytizing xtians,
especially those of the LDS and SDA flavors?
JB>My own religion has a dark history, indeed, but most of what is dark
about it
JB>is based on the unknowing actions of Christians who have jumped to the
JB>conclusion that what uses Magick, or any type of WiccaCraft is purely
heresay.
JB>As you may recall, Witches were often burned because they were believed
to be
JB>"spawn of the devil" (or something to that effect). It is sad that one
would
JB>act upon another's religion before knowing exactly what is done in that
JB>religion (to worship/praise/please their god, that is).
JB>So, to avoid repeating myself (though I am doing it now), perhaps you
should
JB>doa little study into Christian's own faith before drawing pre-mature
JB>conclusionsbased on what little knowledge you may have (after all, though
JB>Witches wereonce burned at the stake, I can now tell you saftely that
Wicca is
JB>based mostlyupon love for your people, planet, and god[s]).
The whole business about 'death cult' refers to the fact that they tend
to focus their lives on the expected rewards of being dead.
Christian is the one who has decided that we who don't worship Yahweh
must be worshiping Satan. I wonder if he appreciates the irony of your
defense of him.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Magick is Alive, and the Goddess is Underfoot!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: COINCIDENCE...
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:dc14 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f03cde6e
AS> AS> KW> Something to pant over when you are hemmed in by society. You
can
AS> AS> KW> pleat expediency, but in the end you will be gored by the straight
AS>line AS> KW> of this wrap-around culture.
AS> AS> I don't want to mini-mize the issue. (Or do I? I am a leg man.)
It's not
AS> AS> my fashion. I guess you Gucci do what you gotta do.
AS> KW> Looks like you've come full-circle, Al. I guess we'll have to train
AS> KW> you to flounce about being a Dior rather than a watcher.
AS> (Ver)sage words. You don't have to twist MY armani. You know what they
AS> say...Klein doesn't pay.
We'll see if we can selvage this. Remember, it is better to be seam
and not herd, and all the bias in the world won't change that. If you
don't let your emotions serge, you won't get needled. Are we done with
this thread?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * May gold, jewels, and silver never mean a thing to you!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: TYPICAL FUNDY OCCULT
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:20de 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6e38e527
AS> LC> I think Al should do some more research into the mythology of the
AS> LC> middle east.Lilith was around before the Hebrew Mythos was created.
AS> LC> She was a hag goddess, the Queen of Vampires, similar to the Sucubi
AS> LC> of Medieval Demonology.She was Canaanite I believe.
AS> I'm not doubting you, Luke, but could you give me a reference? Everything
AS> I have indicates that Lilith popped up as a legend duringthe Middle
or
AS> Dark Ages.
'Lilith' was the result of the early judaic attempt to assimilate
Baalit (Canaanite), or as she was addressed in Ur about 4000 years ago,
Lillake. Other names that she had been known as are Belit-ili,
Belili, Lilit and Astarte. She was a triple goddess of birth, life, and
death. She was often depicted as a winged woman with clawed feet, flanced
by cattle or sheep.
Her 'death' face was identified with vultures, with the connotation of
'taking the blood of life'. I would suppose that this is where the
business of 'Queen of the Vampires' came into her legend. Like most of
the Mother Goddesses, she did have many associations with blood, not
only at death, but also as in 'birthing blood', and menstrual blood.
There is some speculation that this view of 'woman's' blood triggered
the Hebrews laws concerning the 'uncleanliness' of uterine blood.
Lilith was eventually perverted into the succubi, or Nighthag. See
Barbara Walker, _The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets_ for a
basic overview of these facts.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * The Goddess is alive, and Magick is afoot!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:923c 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f87dfce6
AS> It's curious, but the most rabid antifeminists are females. I think
it's
AS> they associate feminism with being "butch" and react away from its stands
AS> for more sexual distaste than anything else...as if standing up for
your
AS> rights made you less female or something. Like being accused of being
AS> "queer" when you had long hair in the sixties. Don't understand the
AS> mindset myself, but I've certainly seen a lot of it.
I think that that mindset comes from insecurity. These women have been
taught to believe that if they follow the rules, dress and act in a
certain way, they will 'catch' and keep a man who will take care of
them. Then along come the feminists, who just plain refuse to follow
the rules. And *horrors*, the feminists are not loosing out for it. It
threatens everything the traditionalist woman has been taught, and
threatens everything that she sees as keeping her safe. So, of course,
she reacts like a horse in a burning barn. She's frightened, Al.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * The InterNewt: broadband communication for the narrow-minded
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:09db 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4c7027e7
PS> PS>Most of my friends agree--graveyards are usually quiet and well-decorated,
PS> PS>if naught else.
PS> KW> They are usually better kept up then the local parks. My family
likes
PS> KW> to take a picnic lunch, and 'visit great granddad'.
PS>Surprisingly, this was a big reason behind the creation of what is/was
PS>known as the "garden cemetary." You know, those big open fields that
PS>resemble parks (or golf courses) with inconspicuous headstones. The
PS>idea originated in the early 1800s and was insanely popular. People
PS>used to spend their lunch hours at the local garden cemetary.
I don't like the places that only allow the flat marker. It's too hard
to find a particular grave. Although with ground drift quite often just
where the actual grave is can become problematical.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * The proof is in the pudding.-Mom
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:a2f1 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 046b5354
RJ> JH> You'd love New Orleans. I found several 1780's and a huge number
RJ> JH> of unmarked tombs that were obviously older.
RJ> KW> Did you see that item in the papers about the woman killed visiting
a
RJ> KW> New Orleans graveyard?
RJ> Never visit the graveyards alone. Go in a group, and stick
RJ> close to each other--in eyeshot of someone at all times.
RJ> There are always brutal thieves out there, and with that
RJ> many tombs and alleys to hide, it's ideal for snagging someone.
RJ> The area around Madame Laveaux's grave is the worst.
The victim was resisting a mugging. Thank you for reinforcing the
warning, Robert. If I ever do wander through New Orleans I will be very
cautious about visiting the graveyards.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...A cat is, above all things, a dramatist.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: QUESTIONING ALL BUT
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:dff0 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 49a8314f
FR>Those are the ones, yes. I want to acquire as much information about
them for
FR>my extensive archives. When some Christian fundy clown complains about
how
FR>their cult is the only one being "persecuted," I would like to be able
to show
FR>that other fundies (other than Islamic crazies) are "persecuted" for
their
FR>actions and statements of beliefs as well.
If\when you find something, would you please post it? I would also be
interested.
FR>lc> I've seen Wiccans get into flame wars about something as
FR>lc> stupid as whether an Athame should be sharp or not, so I
FR>Lc> guess it is possible.
FR> YOU'RE SHITTING ME! I've been to several Dragon Festivals
and
FR>didn't catch one whiff of anything like that.
No, he's not. I got caught in one of those. There are kind of little
silly things that wiccans can and will argue over. I
think it is because we don't have a 'one book' to argue over. Poor us.
Then there was the great Lorna Doone controversy .
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I've been looking for an original sin...(Jim Steinman)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: A Visit 4/4
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:f5b1 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1c1eb0b2
LB>David and Christian were killing time yakking about A Visit 4/4:
LB> CM> wrong with a joke? What is wrong with two people having sex outside
LB> CM> (where God probably wanted it), etc?
LB>"Married, Will Cheat?"
Do you think that's what he means by 'having sex
outside'? I guess that's where 'Three or Moresomes' comes in.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Reality is intuitive
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:bad1 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org af52800d
JH> KW> Did you see that item in the papers about the woman killed
JH> KW> visiting a New Orleans graveyard?
JH> Nope. Was she the victim of violence (not unlikely) or did
JH> something fall over on her? (Some of those multi-tiered tombs
JH> are more than a little off plumb.)
She was a victim of violence. She resisted having her purse stolen, and
was shot. If I remember correctly, she was a tourist. and with her
sister and father when she was killed.
JH> KW> What is the problem with Harris County?
JH> Only that it's packed with over 3 million people. Doing something
JH> "on the county level" here is equivalent to doing it on the state
JH> level in many parts of the country.
Ah so.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Real Family Values -- Dance the Spiral, Turn the Year!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Saint Germain - part 0
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:fb54 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 29b9bac9
JH> MR> And who pray tell is 'Comte de Saint Germane'?
JH> { Did she just ask who Saint Germain was? }
JH> [ She sure did, I saw her do it.]
JH> { I thought so.... good... }
JH> Saint Germain was a French con-man who lived off the rather
JH> dim witted aristocracy just prior to the French Revolution.
JH> Among other things, he claimed to be immortal.
JH> Almost a century later the Theosophical Society (the original
JH> "New Agers") picked up on the legend that had grown up around
JH> the man and expanded on it greatly. Not happy with mere immortality
JH> they made him into an "Ascended Master", a human being who had
JH> attained perfection and gained God-like powers.
Have you run across C. Q. Yarbo's St Germain as vampire novels
yet? It's been 5 years or so since I read them, but I think that the
first was titled 'Hotel Transylvania'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Religion is the opium of the masses. --Karl Marx
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Christian Miller
|Sub: Re: CHURCHES
|Date: 08 Jan 96 05:27:00
EID:4ae5 20282b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a25dbb10
CM>That was quite a while ago. I had been straying, from the Lord little
CM>by little, without really realizing it. I am now getting back into "the
CM>swing of things".
CM>Christian
'Back in the swing of things'? Oh, yes, 'Three or Moresomes'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ..Domestic violence: good old Traditional Family Values.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Asmodeus
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 09 Jan 96 00:41:48
EID:bdd1 20290520
** Quoting Fredric Rice to Asmodeus **
F> a> What keeps all you white-lighters clinging to your religion?
F>
F> Er, ignorance and supersition, mostly, not to mention fear.
F>
F> a> "Blessed are the destroyers of false hope, for they are the true
F> a> Messiahs--Cursed are the god-adorers, for they shall be shorn sheep."
F>
F> Um, blessed by who, exactly?
F>
F> ~*~ I'm awaiting with bated revulsion your detailed account of the number
F> of changes that have taken place in Carbon dating over the past
30
F> years, with some attention paid to whether or not these were
F> refinements in technique. - Don Martin
F> Just think about it... why else would they number the types of
F> carbon dating? - Greg Waggy
F>
F> ---
F> * Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
F> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 3615/50 51
I agree with you on the reason what keeps them in their religion. I assume
you
are a non-theist becuase I know of no white-lighters who would admit such
of
themselves. Am I correc in this assumption?
Those who destroy false hope are not blessed in a divine manner, as no God
exists, but in a figurative way by mortal words. The people who show that
supposed truths are but lies are blessed by those whose eyes they can open.
I
have never attempted to convert someone from their religion to non-theism
but
when people have asked me why I denounce all accepted religions but Satanism
and I tell them, they seem to see to view things in a new light. I know
of at
least four people who I have had long discussions with, (two Catholics,
two
Christians) who have expressed their doubts in their religion afterwards
and
who broke away from it. Many others still cling to their religion. These
people have thanked (blessed) me many times over with great words of praise.
Do you see what I mean?
As for Carbon dating it has proven that the Earth is many billions of years
old, not merely thousands, as the majority of the religious would have you
believe. I believe you brought this subject up on amisconception, namely
that
I was a Christian or some other white-lighter, and you wished to instigate
a
discussion on the absurdidty of the Christian belief of a thousand-year-old
Earth, attempting to insult me. I must tell you I am no Christian or
white-lighter. My name alone should tell you of my devilish background.
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 2330/20 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Asmodeus
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 09 Jan 96 00:52:42
EID:de98 20290680
** Quoting J.J. Hitt to Asmodeus **
J> A> I am humbly apologizing, oh mighty god-adorer.
J>
J> That's only the third atheist in a row you've accused of
J> being a theist.
J>
J> Yet another White_Punk_On_Dope Pagan demonstrates that they
J> are a complete idiot.
J>
J> What are you planning on being when you grow up?
J>
J> ooOOoo
J> --- Msgedsq 2.2e
J> * Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
J> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 3615/50 51
White_Punk_On_Dope Pagan, I think not. I imbibe alcohol from time to time
but
I do not touch dope. And how very stereotypical of you to label me a caucasian
individual. Would it be fair for me to call you an Hispanic (not saying
that
this would be a put-down by the way just in case you thought so, I merely
took
the first that came to mind), without first asking you? How dare you call
me
an idiot when you show such stupidity.
As for what career goal I have set for myself, that is nunya, but I will
share
anyhow. (I am already grown, just getting some tuition togethr) I woullike
to have a career in electronics, but I am being strongly pulled toward my
favorite pastime-Writing.
I apologize for calling you a theist, but It seems as though one with the
intelligence of an atheist would choose to speak in a manner that reflected
that intelligence, and theists would speak at their normal intelligence
level.
Perhaps I should not be so stereotypical of theists and non-theists and
their
intellectual communication skills.
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 2330/20 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:47
EID:0fc6 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebb7
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "AN INTERESTING SITUATION."
PS> single-handed wizardry, I have come to the conclusion that I simply
PS> cannot trust the instructions. This rule goes double when the manual
is
PS> badly parsed and badly spelled.)
AS> True, but I skim for things like "don't do this" or "before you do
AS> this" or whatever.
I depend on my natural intelligence (don't snicker) to figure out
what I should and shouldn't do. Oh, I refer to the manual when dealing
with things that I cannot intuitively grasp on sight (installing hard
drives, for example), but not when putting together a set of bookshelves.
PS> True. But we live and learn, or we don't live long (Used to be that
PS> way, anyhow).
AS> With a lot of childhood traumas to work out when you grow up.
I've gotten past it. If I can't beat 'em with fists, I'll use
words.
... tros yna fo segassem cinatas on sniatnoc egassem sihT
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: RE: ASKING SILLY QUESTION
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:47
EID:a99b 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebb8
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "RE: ASKING SILLY QUESTION"
PS> Keep it coming. Satan forgot to send the usual monthly check.
AS> Does he cheat on the payroll taxes? If so, you could sic the IRS on
AS> him, one of the few forces in the universe as insidious and powerful
AS> as Satan.
Of course he cheats, he's the father of lies. But he's too good to be
caught and the IRS is in his pay anyway.
... Not hungry, not homeless. Will work for sex.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: HEAVENLY AND DAZED
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:48
EID:49c1 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebb9
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "HEAVENLY AND DAZED"
PS> They should, but we wouldn't see them until after the fact.
AS> Better late than never. And it might discourage further such acts.
I doubt it. People have a reprehensible tendency towards repeating
stupid acts.
PS> better solution, is not a "band-aid" effort, and does not inflict as
PS> much damage on people who are already under incredible stress.
AS> It's also a lo harder and takes a lot more time.
Yes, it is, but I think it's a better solution. Most people don't seem to
have the patience needed for the job.
AS> Night of the Living Deists.
PS> Let's just bury this one quietly, shall we?
AS> That's a rotten thing to say...very cryptic. (Yes, another pun thread
AS> started...)
You know what'll happen. Somebody will exhume this, it'll spread, and
before we know it, everyone will be caught in its wake.
AS> ... Famous last words #11: No, it's NOT loaded.
AS> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
AS> -!- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
AS> ! Origin: Silver Xpress Mail System (1:116/3000)
... OPERA: A place where a guy gets stabbed in the back and sings about
it
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:48
EID:4bcc 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebba
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "OPINION POLL"
PS> Cool. I need to see some verbal evisceration.
AS> Vicarious verbal evisceration. Say THAT three times fast.
Nah. I have enough trouble managing such witticisms as "Where the hell
is your evidence?"
PS> It's one of the many ways in which most people are just plain nuts,
PS> IMO.
AS> I either have to reconcile or discard; I can't go from one to the
AS> other.
Perfectly understandable.
PS> "Oh, another steam engine. How *utterly* fascinating, Hero. Hook it
up
PS> to the temple doors or something, won't you?"
AS> EXACTLY! Someone could have taken Hero's steam turbine and start
AS> really exploring it, its uses, its applications. But to them it was
AS> just a toy.
The steamboat and other marvels of the Industrial Revolution were at
their fingertips. I wonder if much of Greece being mountains had anything
to do with their failure to exploit this.
PS> And this trend continues today in our never-ending quest for smaller,
PS> decked-with-blinking-lights-and-dials devices that we don't really
PS> need but can't seem to do without. Bother.
AS> Like personal computers?
No, not at all. My computer is *not* a toy. It is an instrument, a tool,
a weapon of war, and a really neat thing to play games on.
... -<< Insert Inevitable Trivial Witticism >>-
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
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SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:48
EID:f7e7 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebbb
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "REDACTED STORIES"
PS> Ergh. I'll keep it far away from my "Must Read" list, then.
AS> I've never read it all. What little I have, didn't really encourage
AS> me.
More fodder for the home fires?
AS> Including the guests who are invited to speak.
PS> In the case of guests, I'd have to *point* and laugh.
AS> I wouldn't mind listening to some good sf authors. I don't have much
AS> interest in the actors.
Actors are actors. Some of 'em are good, but I see no reason to throw
money away to see them in person unless I'm *really* fond of them--and
none of my cinema idols shows up at such places.
... I think we're in trouble. - Han
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: STALL _IS_ A PIG!
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:48
EID:17d7 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebbc
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "STALL _IS_ A PIG!"
PS> Something along the those lines. Seventh circle, number 666, I think.
AS> It could be worse. It could be ninth circle.
It would just be cold there. I could learn to ice skate, though.
... CONCLUSION: The place where you get tired of thinking.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: SWIM, LITTLE FISHY.
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:48
EID:a508 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebbd
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "SWIM, LITTLE FISHY."
PS> True. It's things like this that make me hate humanity sometimes.
AS> "I love people, it's HUMANITY I hate..."
That about sums it up.
PS> And we simply jesters within it?
AS> Plus a few Jokers.
Stay away from pasty-faced green-haired guys with manic grins.
PS> And I bet I could make a real humdinger of a theist if I tried.
AS> One wonders what the more outspoken people on this echo against
AS> religion, Fred, Sean, perhaps Hector...what they would be like as
AS> believers. Would Fred dismiss disbelievers as "lesser educated"? Would
Possibly.
AS> Sean tell us that paganism MUST BE stamped out, with his usual
AS> hyperbole? Hector might ROFL! and call morons those who believe in
AS> anything but Jesus.
This doesn't seem to be too far-fetched, actually. Frightful.
PS> Or maybe they're twins. Or the product of some carforsaken genetics
PS> experiment. Or maybe they're just God testing his followers. The truth
PS> may never be known.
AS> No one's interested enough.
There are some Things That Man Was Not Meant To Know.
PS> Psychology and history. By the time I've finished with school, I'll
PS> have over 150 hours worth of classes for two degrees.
AS> Ah, a psychohistorian! Hari Seldon, move over...(FOUNDATION trilogy,
AS> Isaac Asimov).
Nah. Analyzing dead people, while a fascinating hobby, doesn't strike me
as particularly lucrative or profitable in most cases.
... The desk had just got fundamentally fed up with being where it was.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: THE ROTHSCHILD DYNASTY 6/
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:49
EID:19d1 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebbe
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "THE ROTHSCHILD DYNASTY
6/"
PS> People who speak of "Atheists" and "Communists" (with the capitals
PS> emphasized) in the same hushed voices (much as people in earlier
PS> generations used to whisper the names of diseases) make me nervous.
PS> I suspect that there's no one behind their collective wheels.
AS> Yeah, but you are part of the vast Atheistic/Communistic conspiracy,
AS> so what do YOU know, in Grigor-Scott's eyes?
Because we've got all the power and we know everything, just like
the Illuminati.
AS> I did it again. Madelyn Murray O'Hair.
It's okay. We all make mistakes.
PS> Dammit. You can't get rid of trash these days by shooting it. Oh, for
PS> the good old days when nobody was a martyr for anything.
AS> Kidnap 'em and make 'em WONDER if they're dead. Hey, it worked for
AS> Jimmy Hoffa...
The mystery would never be solved, and I wager that someone would say
that the fool in question was "translated" directly to Heaven.
... Line noise provided by South Central Bell!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Lon S. Mabon
|Sub: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:49
EID:7cab 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebbf
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Lon S. Mabon mumbled "Holiday Greetings..."
LSM> And much like Adam and the rest of creation Satan was created 'good'.
LSM> He did, however, lead a rebellion against God, suffered defeat under
LSM> the hand of Michael and the non-rebelling angels adn lost his place
in
LSM> heaven.
Not a very good creation. Why did one of God's most ardent followers turn
from him?
... A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
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SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Judging Others
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:50
EID:8ed4 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebc2
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, David Worrell mumbled "Judging Others"
RB> As it turns out, he did get the reference.
DW> I saw that. I was impressed. I feel rather like Dennis Miller when
Thank you, thank you. And for my next trick...
... "Bother," said Pooh, as he filmed Eeyore and the Norwegian starlet.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jm Staal
|Sub: dipstick sees UFO...
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:50
EID:5c95 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebc3
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Jm Staal mumbled "dipstick sees UFO..."
JS> Two things:
JS> a. You don't know the meaning of either or you would provide the
PS> Do you think I have nothing better to do with my life than to
PS> spoonfeed you things that you should already know?
JS> You should already know Jesus as your Saviour but you don't. So I keep
JS> on keeping on...
I have not failed to notice that this is completely irrelevant to the
topic at hand.
JS> b. I have an OED upstairs. I live donwstairs.
PS> What, pray, is your fucking point? Are you too lazy to go upstairs and
PS> read it, if all else fails?
JS> Nope. I just wanted to get your goat a little...and I did :)
How very Christian of you. Do you enjoy driving people away from your
god, Jim? You're the best missionary that Satan has.
... Jesus is coming! No - wait, he's just breathing hard.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
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SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Homosexual christians? N
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:50
EID:3e64 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebc4
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Sean McCullough mumbled "Homosexual christians?
N"
> Brian Lumley, Robert Howard, and other writers to bring forth the
> Gospel of Cthulhu and have it preached as truth throughout the land?
SM> Small problem with this one, Preston.
Of course.
SM> "Gospel" is descended from the Anglo-Saxon (Old English) "God spell",
SM> or GOOD TIDINGS.
SM> Therefore, the term "Gospel of Cthulhu" is self-contradictory. :-)
Not at all. Cthulhu brings good tidings of great joy--everywhere that he
isn't.
... Unspeakable error in module Cthulhu at address R'lyeh.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
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SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
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SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Female Circumcision, yet
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:50
EID:75da 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebc5
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Sean McCullough mumbled "Female Circumcision,
yet"
SM> I can't believe that the Western Hemisphere contains ANYONE who would
SM> defend the practice!!
'S true, chummer.
> The only possible reason I can think of was that the poor girl had
> gangrene or some other untreatable wound.
SM> In which case the applicable surgery would be done with Marty
SM> Leipzig's 50-cal, at least IMHO.
But then, the victim in question was 5. Gangrene is hardly a likely
reason.
... Second comings are always better -- pre-lubed, you know?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
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SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
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SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: So -shoot- me!
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:50
EID:abc1 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebc6
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Sean McCullough mumbled "So -shoot- me!"
SM> They (the revisionists) can't seem to stomach the FACT that they were
SM> defending one of the vilest institutions ever devised by man -- and
Not all of them. Plenty of Southerners fought because the North invaded.
Up until 1863, the war was over states' rights, not slavery.
... Your sacred cow is my next Double Whopper with cheese.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: dipstick sees UFO...
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:51
EID:e399 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebc7
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Jim Staal mumbled "dipstick sees UFO..."
JS> behaving in the manner expected. My life credo: call me a thief, I'll
JS> behave like one. (I am selective about this so don't bother getting
What a cop-out.
You're a liar. Act like one.
You're a corpse. Act like one.
You're a festering pile of dog shit. Act like one.
Yes, you say you're selective about this--but all that shows is that you're
no more a Christian than I am. It shows only that you're a blind, fearful
little man who lashes out at this big old hostile world any way that he
can.
Pathetic.
... "You live and learn, or you don't live long." - Lazarus Long
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
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SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:51
EID:fc4a 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebc8
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Jim Staal mumbled "2 SO, WHY GOD?"
ML> Little note, little man. If you're going to try and defame
ML> someone; try doing so directly. Burying it in a message from a
ML> one deluded fundy to another is the height of poltroonery.
JS> You have a problem with that, Herr Leipzig?
Backstabbing is best left to cowards and those who have no other reasonable
alternative. As a Christian, you should realize that behaving in such a
reprehensible manner is not Christly and is certainly not winning any
converts for your religion.
JS> We have both been here long enough to determine each others demeanor,
JS> Marty. Nothing personal as far as insult was concerned. Merely self
JS> evident behaviour on your part.
Blasphemer I'll agree with--Marty's like that with unevidenced bullshit.
Heinous? Hardly. He's one of the finer people I know.
You, on the other hand, are not. You are a discredit to your religion and
your species, whatever it may be. If you had any sense of decency, any
capability for feeling, you would be ashamed of what you are.
JS> Calm down, old man. Relax. This is merely pastime and diversion...:)
And I bet that God on Judgment Day is going to say, "You dared say that
when you did so much to defame me? Get out of my sight. I do not know
you."
... So I let you in. Now quit bleedin' all over the carpet.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
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SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: ARK
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:51
EID:b5f4 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebc9
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, David Worrell mumbled "ARK"
PS> Uniforms don't bother me most of the time. What's the EOD?
DW> Explosive Ordnance Disposal, I think.
Cool. I get to watch other peoples' gadgets go bang, and hope that I'm
not around when it happens.
... Barney: What happens when you feed a smurf after midnight!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:51
EID:ce94 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebca
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Jim Staal mumbled "CHRISTOLOGY"
ML> Which is the correct version?
JS> Which ever one works best in a given application...
Salad-bar Christian, are you? I am not surprised to see you take such a
weak stand. After all, I expected nothing less of a coward like yourself.
... "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." -- Heinlein
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: DEFINITIONS
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:51
EID:55cc 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebcb
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Jim Staal mumbled "DEFINITIONS"
JB> I can tell
JB> you quite truly that he despises LITERATURE, pooh-pooh's any history
JB> that conflicts with his ideas and cannot either take or give criticism.
JS> Tsk. I take issue with all of the above...
Pity that it's the truth.
JB> None of his other aliases or personalities are able show any erudition
JB> either.
JS> Tsk. Tsk!
Are you going to set about improving yourself, or continue making an ass
of yourself?
... Seems like the fireball burned up all the treasure. Bummer.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fido
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:52
EID:14be 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebcd
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Jim Staal mumbled "Fido"
JB> .. you're kidding right? An English major that doesn't like a library?
JB> Hooooly man. That's sad.. *REALLY* sad.
JS> EAUW!!!!! A big room full of geeks and dweebs!? No way, dude...I'm
JS> outa there!
Yeah. I bet it irks you to no end to be in a place of learning, surrounded
by people who have minds and are willing to use them.
... "This is some fucked-up repugnant shit."-- Jules, _Pulp Fiction_
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Judgement
|Date: 08 Jan 96 23:14:52
EID:5398 2028b9c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 30f1ebce
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Don Martin mumbled "Judgement"
KM> How can I teach one about God, if they do not believe in him?
DM> By beginning with some credible evidence that this entity exists
DM> as something other than a figment of imagination. One you have done
DM> _that_, your students will be ready for your instruction regarding
DM> the _nature_ of the entity in question. That's how.
I think that's too subtle for his purposes.
... "It's not my fault!" - Han Solo
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707
SEEN-BY: 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/103 801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2
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|From: Cyberlord
|To: All
|Sub: S.I.N.- Society for Intellectual Nihilists
|Date: 07 Jan 96 22:07:23
EID:e986 2027b0e0
NO amount of belief establishes FACT.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Luke Clark
|Sub: Re: evidence
|Date: 08 Jan 96 20:38:00
EID:f8c7 2028a4c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 88FE437E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Luke Clark to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Who would you consider to be unbiased? Everyone is biased in some way
MH> or other. That doesn't mean their bias is misplaced in all cases --
MH> you just have to know what the bias is, so you can account for it.
LC> Just get people who don't care.That would work.
People who don't care wouldn't bother writing anything to leave behind
for us. People of that age didn't have the information glut we do
today.
MH> But saying that "Support for Christianity coming from a Christian is
MH> unacceptable" is, frankly, dumb. You might as well say that the only
MH> acceptable evidence for evolution has to come from a Creationist, or
MH> that the only valid critique of rock music has to come from someone
MH> who hates it -- you're stacking the deck in favor of *your* bias.
LC> I personally don't fucking care.I'll burn, so what? I'll just laugh
LC> at your god's face.What's he gonna do? Kill me?
If you don't care, then why are you here arguing about it?
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Luke Clark
|Sub: Re: YHWH
|Date: 08 Jan 96 21:49:00
EID:2765 2028ae20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 88FE437F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Luke Clark to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> representation of God and the Old Testament's representation is
MH> exactly the same -- God saves and forgives those who ask him to, and
MH> judges those who remain defiant in their rejection of him.
LC> How do innocent little babies remain defiant of him?
When did I ever say anything about babies?
MH> Some passages from the Old Testament about God's mercy:
LC> Some other passages from the Old and New testament for your
LC> consideration.
LC>
LC> Amos 3:6-"Shall there be evil in city, and the lord hath not done
LC> it?"
LC> Your Lord IS the source of evil, according to the bible.
LC> 3 John 1:11-"he that doeth evil hath not seen God."
LC> So God hasn't seen himself.
That's an archaic use of the word "evil." You're quoting King James,
right? "Evil" used to have as one of its definitions any kind of
calamity or disaster. That meaning seems to have faded. More modern
translations use "disaster" instead.
The Hebrew word is "ra," which means "adversity, affliction, bad,
calamity," according to Strong's Hebrew and Greek Concordance. Not
moral evil, as you suppose.
LC> LC> As to your other examples, he was
Merciful to those he liked, but LC> to his enemies, or those who didn't
have a chance to know him, he was LC> a wrathful monster.
Yes, those who make themselves his enemy, he will judge.
LC> And did not Jesus say that you should love your enemies?
God does love his enemies. That's why he became a man and died on a
cross -- so that all of his enemies would have the offer of his
gracious mercy.
He doesn't compel you to accept it. But it's there, anytime you choose
to have it.
Some choose to remain his enemy. And those seal their own fate.
... Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: David Hilling
|Sub: apology
|Date: 08 Jan 96 21:06:00
EID:cc56 2028a8c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 88FE4380
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to David Hilling <=-
FR> Today's the 14'th and I've not recieved an apology or evidence in
FR> network mail yet. I'm sure he's aware of what he must do.
mh> I was away on vacation from the 13th through the 21st.
FR> That's no excuse. You're back now and your deadline has passed.
FR> Now you're in for it!
dh> ROTFLMAO! What are you going to do, Fred?
dh> Crawl through the phone line and bite him on the ass?
FR> You take this forum _far_ too seriously, David. That's
FR> because you're a newbie and don't have the experience you need to
FR> evaluate these things.
FR> Mike has been given such mock "threats" several times over the years.
FR> He doesn't take them seriously, David, just as no one else does.
FR> In the event you're capable of noticing, after the latest "deadline,"
FR> he fell silent and I didn't persue the apology he owes me -- since I
FR> don't treat him seriously and he doesn't treat anything seriously, I
FR> knew from day #1 he wouldn't back up his claim with either evidence
for
FR> an apology.
FR> Don't pull the newbie mistake often, David. It may not be forgiven
if
FR> you intend to stick around here long.
Yeah, and you owe him an apology now. :)
Actually, there are some people in this forum I do take seriously. Fred
isn't one of them, and I'm sure he returns the sentiment.
... Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: fundy oxymoron
|Date: 08 Jan 96 21:10:00
EID:bf7d 2028a940
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 88FE4381
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I think intelligent, articulate Christians are exactly what's needed
MH> here.
HP> Know any? :-)
If you became a Christian, you'd fulfill one of the three. :-)
... Pull the other one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: love
|Date: 08 Jan 96 21:12:00
EID:5576 2028a980
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 88FE4382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
FR> Just THINKING of Linda Carter and Her Tight Brests is enough to make
FR> my teeth hurt. Toss in her Magic Rope and it gets _ME_
FR> going.
LB> That's LYNDA Carter. Really. (Glad I'm not the only Lynda to deal
LB> with constant misspellings.) ;)
MH> I like the way he capitalized "Her Tight Brests" [sic]
LB> Well, if you had to walk around in a metallic bra, you'd call it tight
LB> with a capital T, too!
Hey, leave my private life out of this, OK? :-)
... Tagline sold separately.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: reasons
|Date: 08 Jan 96 21:15:00
EID:3187 2028a9e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 88FE4383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB>>> Somebody else's belief hardly qualifies as empirical evidence,
MB>>> Mickey, but nice try.
MH>> It does, Lynnie, because *something* caused that belief. And the
MH>> original disciples, uniquely among mankind, would be in a position
to
MH>> know whether their beliefs were well-grounded in reality.
MB> Oh, you mean like my friend's mother who swore that if you
MB> hung clothes on a line while pregnant, you'd wrap the baby's
MB> cord around its neck and it would strangle during delivery?
MB> She swore she knew people this had happened to. You mean like
MB> that?
HP> Or like the folks at Waco who stuck with a man they believed to be the
HP> "Lamb of God" to the death? Or like John Prewett, who believes that
HP> JFK is still alive and well and the anti-christ despite the ridicule
he
HP> regularly receives? Maybe he means something like that?
No, I don't, and the difference has been explained to you countless
times. Maybe you're just dense.
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Yackmas
|Date: 08 Jan 96 18:33:48
EID:0090 20289420
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 0f1a7795
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0311e0f1
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
JcJ> I wish I thought that the retailers might be able to wean
JcJ> themselves from this frenzy. I just don't see it happening. Not
JcJ> unless Jesus decided to reenact the cleansing of the Temple. :-)
sr> Since he does not actually exist...why
sr> don't you reenact if for him? Take a bath.
FR> See now, _that's_ funny.
Yeah. Even re-reading it days later still produced a 3.6 on the Diet-Coke
Spray Scale.
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal shows he's colored
|Date: 08 Jan 96 18:41:32
EID:a278 20289520
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 0f1a7799
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a5f6
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to All:
sr> Yeah...let's all give MISTER Staalie the benefit of our doubts. ;)
FR> Yep. I DOUBT that he's even marginally
FR> sane when he's off his medication.
js> Got great news: been off the medication for
js> months now. Life is indeed good!
FR> I KNEW IT! I just KNEW it!
I would pay his doctors just to have his prescription re-filled!
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Lump
|Sub: Fundy
|Date: 08 Jan 96 18:42:12
EID:86a9 20289540
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 0f1a779c
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 30f04c89
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lump wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
KM> of us to preach that night, about 5 minutes each. Had a blast,
KM> skits, singing, preaching (listen as well as teaching), games
SR> <<< Sounds of violent barfing heard in the backround >>>
L> <<< Only when you enter the echo >>>
Yeah...as I am forced to look at your blabbering jeezoid echo-postings all
day.
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fundy
|Date: 08 Jan 96 18:42:33
EID:67d5 20289540
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 0f1a779d
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 30f06c00
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Staal wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
KM> of us to preach that night, about 5 minutes each. Had a blast,
KM> skits, singing, preaching (listen as well as teaching), games
SR> <<< Sounds of violent barfing heard in the backround >>>
JS> Reason?
I dunno. Why do people go to Disney-World? The same thing. Cheap, throw-away
entertainment while the corporation gets rich.
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Kevin Casey
|Sub: ----
|Date: 08 Jan 96 14:59:19
EID:12b3 20287760
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f1e66b
REPLY: 1:280/135 568c9bc8
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Kevin were killing time yakking about ----:
KC> Wrong, you forget we changed Calenders twice in 1900 years. The
KC> Jewish calender may be more correct so we are talking arond 5000 AD
I'm sorry, but without any referring quotes, and a subject header of ----,
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Could you give me
a hint, please?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "All humans things are subject to decay."
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: [1/2] archives
|Date: 09 Jan 96 00:21:04
EID:9f1f 202902a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f1e66c
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 30f06bf8
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Judith and Jm were killing time yakking about archives:
JB> Somewhere in the 2 week period after 12/6/95, Lon S. Mabon posted
JB> about his father having several strokes. It was in reply to Shelby
JB> Sherman's post about the death of his father-in-law.
JB> During that same period of time, Jim Staal ALSO posted about his
JB> father having more than one stroke, in close approximation of the date
JB> of Mabon's.
JB> Any chance you could find these posts and send them to me. I would
JB> appreciate it.
Judith, while I do not have the original of Lon's post, I do have a post
in which it was quoted. I have also found the message from Jim --
surprisingly enough, that one was to me (I knew I was severely backed up
in messages, but I guess I haven't even read all of the ones addressed to
me):
Ä Area: HolySmoke
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 3782 Date: 18 Dec 95
13:27:24
From: Lon S. Mabon Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Shelby Sherman Mark:
Subj: Holiday Greetings...
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ÄÄÄ
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Lon S. Mabon <=-
SS> @MSGID: 1:123/67 30d32c78
SS> 14 Dec 95 14:49, quoting Lon S. Mabon to Shelby Sherman:
LM> Was your FAther in law a Christian when he died? If so, God was
LM> there, gently escorting him through the valley of the shadow of death.
SS> This is a goddamn lie of the worst sort.
No, it's the truth.
SS> This is a goddamn lie of the worst sort. Yes, he was a christian and
SS> NO, there was no god present to comfort him through his suffering.
Is this merely your opinion or did you bother to get the information
from the individual himself?
SS> If there was a god present, what sort of perverse and depraved
SS> satisfaction did this god get from watching this once vibrant and
SS> strong man die a horrible death?
None: (Psa 116:15 NIV) Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death
of his saints.
SS> Do you characterize "gently escorting" as the decimation of a man and
SS> it taking THREE DAYS for this man to slowly strangle to death IN GREAT
SS> AGONY, in his own congestion?
What was the man's own testimony concerning God at this time?
SS> If your god existed, he is a MONSTER, a reprehensible GHOUL of
SS> unimaginable magnitude, a god THAT IS NOT WORTHY OF WORSHIP.
SS> I curse your god.
YOu are in error here, sir...
LM> My father current lies near death after suffering three strokes this
LM> week and God is in the room with all of us, comforting while we hold
LM> vigil over him.
SS> You are a fool.
No, the fool is one who does not believe there is a kind, loving God:
(Psa 14:1 NIV) The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
SS>> Why would a loving god create a tobacco plant?
LM> As tobacco is a plant, I guess He did create the earth (the tobacco
LM> plant) and did a great job, as a matter of fact.
SS> Why would this god create this plant, knowing that his creations would
SS> think that it had medicinal properties, only to discover later that
it
SS> carried a DEATH SENTENCE.
Your father-in-law thought tobacco had medicinal properties? Was the
man born in a tee-pee? BTW, do you believe God exists?
SS> What sort of perverse satisfaction does your god get from this
SS> senario?
None. God cannot have a perverse thought.
>>> Continued to next message...
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: [2/2] archives
|Date: 09 Jan 96 00:21:30
EID:5c1a 202902a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f1e66d
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 30f06bf8
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 2 of 2...
-!- GEcho 1.20/Pro
! Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
Ä Area: HolySmoke
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 3786 Rec'd Date: 18 Dec 95
13:41:05
From: Jim Staal Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Lynda Bustilloz Mark:
Subj: Sinners sins
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ÄÄÄ
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Jim Staal <=-
LB> Glad to hear it...while I am not interested in the "Psychic Friends"
LB> and see it as in the same category as televangelists (only difference
LB> is that there is a DISCLAIMER on the psychic stuff),
Hey, now...what's wrong with the 'big hair' network (TBN - Praise the
Lord show)...just kidding. That Jimmy Swaggart's pretty cool, though...
JS> But as far 'police your brother'...hey, it's none of my affair. I take
JS> my 'lumps' here, he can take his. :)
LB> Sorry, but you took on the job when you went after Sue when you
LB> thought she was giving him some lumps. If you are going to jump in
in
LB> defense of your brother even when you admit you think he's wrong, then
LB> it's up to YOU to take care of the messes he makes yourself.
I mentioned it to him Saturday at our breakfast with the computer gang
and he..uh...chuckled at the thought of the echo retribution...besides,
Sue has bad mouthed me in the past and it was an opportunity...
LB> Now, if
LB> you'd like to hand that task back to the echo at large, that's fine
--
HAVE AT IT, DUDES (and 'dudettes')
LB> but don't YOU start in with the "nobody messes with my baby brother"
LB> crud. If you're going to let him take care of himself, then LET
LB> him...unimpeded.
It's a dirty job, but...
LB> I think half his trouble is that you've never let him
LB> sink in the mire of his own creation, and he's never really had his
LB> hand slapped for the sewage he puts out, like above.
Nah...he lived with my parents for 29 years or so. Take that up with
them (though he is going through some tough times with my father in
the hospital, having suffered some serious strokes last Monday) He has
been only married for a year and a couple of months. I only lived with
my parents for 18 years. Been outa there for some 30 now...
! Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
JS> I would be _very_ interested in seeing that myself. Please x-post
JS> anything the dude might come up with to me, OK? Thank you very much.
JS> You are a kind person.
JS> ! Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
I will crosspost to Jim, as per his request.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Slimy, yet... satisfying!"
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: [1/2] Archives
|Date: 09 Jan 96 00:18:56
EID:cbe0 20290240
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f1e66e
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Judith and Jm were killing time yakking about archives:
JB> Somewhere in the 2 week period after 12/6/95, Lon S. Mabon posted
JB> about his father having several strokes. It was in reply to Shelby
JB> Sherman's post about the death of his father-in-law.
JB> During that same period of time, Jim Staal ALSO posted about his
JB> father having more than one stroke, in close approximation of the date
JB> of Mabon's.
JB> Any chance you could find these posts and send them to me. I would
JB> appreciate it.
Judith, while I do not have the original of Lon's post, I do have a post
in which it was quoted. I have also found the message from Jim --
surprisingly enough, that one was to me (I knew I was severely backed up
in messages, but I guess I haven't even read all of the ones addressed to
me):
Ä Area: HolySmoke ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 3782 Date: 18 Dec 95 13:27:24
From: Lon S. Mabon Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Shelby Sherman Mark:
Subj: Holiday Greetings...
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Lon S. Mabon <=-
SS> @MSGID: 1:123/67 30d32c78
SS> 14 Dec 95 14:49, quoting Lon S. Mabon to Shelby Sherman:
LM> Was your FAther in law a Christian when he died? If so, God was
LM> there, gently escorting him through the valley of the shadow of death.
SS> This is a goddamn lie of the worst sort.
No, it's the truth.
SS> This is a goddamn lie of the worst sort. Yes, he was a christian and
SS> NO, there was no god present to comfort him through his suffering.
Is this merely your opinion or did you bother to get the information
from the individual himself?
SS> If there was a god present, what sort of perverse and depraved
SS> satisfaction did this god get from watching this once vibrant and
SS> strong man die a horrible death?
None: (Psa 116:15 NIV) Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death
of his saints.
SS> Do you characterize "gently escorting" as the decimation of a man and
SS> it taking THREE DAYS for this man to slowly strangle to death IN GREAT
SS> AGONY, in his own congestion?
What was the man's own testimony concerning God at this time?
SS> If your god existed, he is a MONSTER, a reprehensible GHOUL of
SS> unimaginable magnitude, a god THAT IS NOT WORTHY OF WORSHIP.
SS> I curse your god.
YOu are in error here, sir...
LM> My father current lies near death after suffering three strokes this
LM> week and God is in the room with all of us, comforting while we hold
LM> vigil over him.
SS> You are a fool.
No, the fool is one who does not believe there is a kind, loving God:
(Psa 14:1 NIV) The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
SS>> Why would a loving god create a tobacco plant?
LM> As tobacco is a plant, I guess He did create the earth (the tobacco
LM> plant) and did a great job, as a matter of fact.
SS> Why would this god create this plant, knowing that his creations would
SS> think that it had medicinal properties, only to discover later that
it
SS> carried a DEATH SENTENCE.
Your father-in-law thought tobacco had medicinal properties? Was the
man born in a tee-pee? BTW, do you believe God exists?
SS> What sort of perverse satisfaction does your god get from this
SS> senario?
None. God cannot have a perverse thought.
>>> Continued to next message...
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/103
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: [2/2] Archives
|Date: 09 Jan 96 00:18:57
EID:08e5 20290240
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f1e66f
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 2 of 2...
Area # 32 HolySmoke 01-08-96 16:03 Message # 3
From : Lynda Bustilloz
To : Judith Bandsma RCVD
Subj : [2/2] archives
>>> Part 2 of 2...
-!- GEcho 1.20/Pro
! Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
Ä Area: HolySmoke ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 3786 Rec'd Date: 18 Dec 95 13:41:05
From: Jim Staal Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Lynda Bustilloz Mark:
Subj: Sinners sins
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Jim Staal <=-
LB> Glad to hear it...while I am not interested in the "Psychic Friends"
LB> and see it as in the same category as televangelists (only difference
LB> is that there is a DISCLAIMER on the psychic stuff),
Hey, now...what's wrong with the 'big hair' network (TBN - Praise the
Lord show)...just kidding. That Jimmy Swaggart's pretty cool, though...
JS> But as far 'police your brother'...hey, it's none of my affair. I take
JS> my 'lumps' here, he can take his. :)
LB> Sorry, but you took on the job when you went after Sue when you
LB> thought she was giving him some lumps. If you are going to jump in
in
LB> defense of your brother even when you admit you think he's wrong, then
LB> it's up to YOU to take care of the messes he makes yourself.
I mentioned it to him Saturday at our breakfast with the computer gang
and he..uh...chuckled at the thought of the echo retribution...besides,
Sue has bad mouthed me in the past and it was an opportunity...
LB> Now, if
LB> you'd like to hand that task back to the echo at large, that's fine
--
HAVE AT IT, DUDES (and 'dudettes')
LB> but don't YOU start in with the "nobody messes with my baby brother"
LB> crud. If you're going to let him take care of himself, then LET
LB> him...unimpeded.
It's a dirty job, but...
LB> I think half his trouble is that you've never let him
LB> sink in the mire of his own creation, and he's never really had his
LB> hand slapped for the sewage he puts out, like above.
Nah...he lived with my parents for 29 years or so. Take that up with
them (though he is going through some tough times with my father in
the hospital, having suffered some serious strokes last Monday) He has
been only married for a year and a couple of months. I only lived with
my parents for 18 years. Been outa there for some 30 now...
! Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
JS> I would be _very_ interested in seeing that myself. Please x-post
JS> anything the dude might come up with to me, OK? Thank you very much.
JS> You are a kind person.
JS> ! Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
I will crosspost to Jim, as per his request.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Slimy, yet... satisfying!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... A little like having bees live in your head.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/103
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ARK
|Date: 09 Jan 96 00:23:21
EID:2ebe 202902e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f1e670
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 30efbd38
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Preston and Lynda were killing time yakking about ARK:
LB>> wearing a uniform, I'd suggest he check out the EOD career field.
PS> Uniforms don't bother me most of the time. What's the EOD?
Explosive Ordnance Disposal. They do everything from diffusing terrorist
style homemade explosives, to safely disposing of explosive debris from
plane crashes, to gathering and getting rid of the junk that the pilots
drop during practice. Depending on which branch of the service you go into
there are some differences in what the focus will be, as well as differences
in the level of independence one has in making decisions. Not surprisingly,
Army is low-end when it comes to autonomy, and once they leave the training
portion, they don't seem to get the sort of ongoing training I see happening
with Navy and Air Force. Air Force focusses a lot on missles, and anything
else to do with airdropped explosives. The Navy gets a lot of underwater
training -- in fact, all SEALS are EOD trained. I can't say much of what
the Marines get involved in, as I've never spent much time around them.
Over the years, George has gotten ongoing training in everything from nukes
to breaking and entering (because a bomb doesn't always have the courtesy
to be out in the open) to robotics to environmentally safe ways to dispose
of toxic waste -- once they reduce the *whatever* to ash, the ash itself
needs to be dealt with.
If you like pyrotechnics and can handle the kind of job where you live,
breathe and sleep the right methods to do the job, don't might a bit of
danger (mostly controlled by not "hotdogging"), are arrogant enough to be
confident of what you're doing, it can be a very rewarding career. I have
never met an EOD tech that doesn't love what they do all day, and they all
share the above traits in common.
It's a pretty tough field to get into -- the flunkout rate during training
is
high -- but it is also a field that desperately needs good people, and,
in
the Air Force at least, it is respected enough that there is a minimum of
military BS to put up with.
If you are seriously interested, send my your address and I'll see if George
has any more pertinent info to send you. :)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Bombs don't kill people. Explosions do!
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/103
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Bible Follies
|Date: 09 Jan 96 01:01:01
EID:13a6 20290820
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f1e671
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 30efa87c
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and David were killing time yakking about Bible Follies:
MR>> in any of these discussions). Most of the time, we don't even
MR>> know about the social agendas being put forth until the
MR>> "sessions" are already in progress or after the fact. So with all
MR>> this happening, I
LB> It's your responsibility to be aware of any "social agendas" going on
LB> in the school system. Ever hear of the PTA? Ever considered
LB> volunteering in the classroom so you can SEE what's happening?
DW> *DON'T* give her any ideas, Li...Lynda. We already have enough
DW> brain-dead fundies serving on school boards.
*sigh* Unfortunately, true...but it is still vital that parents find out
first hand what is going on in their kids schools, and much of the RUMOR
that passes through the fundy community is based on gross misunderstanding.
Rather then spread the rumor, it would be much more to the point to find
out for herself. I can't begin to tell you the sort of strange interpretations
of events I've heard from people who weren't there about things where I
WAS
present, and barely recognized the actual event buried within the story.
DW> Unless, of course, you *want* your grandchildren to grow up believing
DW> that the stars are "God's angels" (as at least one fundy has stated
DW> here).
No fears there. I have few problems with the public school system, primarily
because I recognise that they are there to assist ME in the education of
my
children. Since I have never given over full control of my kid's mental
growth to any outside institution, it is a simple matter to correct error
via a trip through the library, or our own bookshelves -- when something
doesn't sound right but I'm not certain, I do the research myself to make
sure, and that often involves asking a teacher for sources, or for what
*exactly* was said during a lecture, to acertain that my kids didn't simply
misunderstand. I can't abide talking to parents who complain about the
quality of education their children are getting, and then finding out that
they are completely ignorant about what topics their children are currently
studying.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Good Enough" is the death knell of progress.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Eric Williams
|Sub: The Case for Jesus
|Date: 08 Jan 96 07:05:13
EID:08fd 202838a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 cf118a91
REPLY: 1:271/320.0 30F08CAC
On (07 Jan 96) Eric Williams wrote to Preston Simpson...
EW> Hello Preston....
EW> PSþ The usual count is 66, dimwit. Are you using the bugfix Bible?
EW> Really? 66? Interesting....mine has 73, I guess if Glen is a "dimwit"
EW> for going 1 over your count, that must make me a real dope...eh?
So you're Catholic and he's Protestant. Big deal. The count is
still 66, as the original poster has now agreed to.
EW> PSþ Be serious. There are four separate versions of the
EW> resurrection story, PSþ and Matthew, for one, includes
EW> details that are not discussed in any of PSþ the other three.
EW> Written for different communities, the gospels differ in their
EW> theology and style. Matthews infancy narrative is much different than
EW> Lukes, they had different audiences...kinda like the way Russians
EW> tell their children about World War 2 differs from the way we do.
EW> Just an example.
Yes, and the stories are mutually exclusive. (For the word-impaired,
that means they cannot all be true, because there are things in one
that make a claim in another impossible.)
EW> PSþ Maybe you should read it too, Chuckles.
EW> You read it cover to cover? Why? Were you once a Christian or
EW> did you read it to find fault with it? (or attempt to,
EW> anyway)
Most of the people who post here are skeptics/atheists/agnostics/
nonbelievers have read the Bible many, many times. Cover-to-cover.
Most have been very active Christians at one time or another.
EW> Peace be with you,
EW> Eric
You're over your head, sweetie, you'd better learn to swim in
deep, deep water.
EW> ---
EW> * MikeMayl v1.0 * How can I be out of money if I still have these
EW> checks? --- GAPNet Enhanced
EW> * Origin: FidoNet * Upper Room * Hampton,VA (804)851-5033
EW> (1:271/320.0)
... Justice without mercy is preferable to mercy without justice.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: "Prove it ain't true!
|Date: 07 Jan 96 21:18:00
EID:603a 2027aa40
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 30f038be
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 88FC4638
-=| On 05 Jan 96 23:39, Michael Hardy said: |=-
MH> In that case, then the point is moot.
Yes?
MH> But you will be copping out if you duck the question: Why couldn't
a
MH> God who can create a universe also cause a virgin to conceive a
MH> child?
And so it goes...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: HEAVENLY AND DAZED
|Date: 07 Jan 96 21:28:01
EID:12b3 2027ab80
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 30f03b2a
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 4abf8b46
06 Jan 96 10:35, Marilyn Burge wrote to Michael Hardy:
MB> No wonder I dislike you so intensely and always will.
MB> You are very much a fundy, for whom
MB> I will always have zero respect. Get used to it.
How you gonna sleep tonight?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 08 Jan 96 12:17:36
EID:c3b5 20286220
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f1552e
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Staal <=-
DC> That denotes my utter lack of respect of your self-professed education.
How _do_ I manage to sleep nights...
DC> Face it, Milk Dud, you are a liar.
About...?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: gathering
|Date: 08 Jan 96 12:21:12
EID:b2fd 202862a0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f1552f
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> the occultists, pagans and witches could show up in full uniform, the
JB> christians could bring their bibles to beat us while the hollar
JB> "Blasphemists!" and the fundies could just sit there and rattle off
JB> some of their science. :)
MH> It would be fun, but logistically pretty hard. We're scattered all
MH> over, from you and Lynda on the eastern seaboard, Jesse, Curry, Al,
MH> David Worrell, Preston, J.J. and Plasmic all in the southeast, Dave
MH> Oo. and the Jim Staal Collection in Michigan, and the Rice boys, Burge
MH> and Ceppa out west.
MH> (Actually, I said all that just so I would have an opportunity to
MH> refer to "the Jim Staal Collection." It struck me as funny for some
MH> reason.)
Oh 'ha'...oh 'hee'...:)
MH> ... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
Ha ha ha ha ha! Hee hee-ee!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 08 Jan 96 01:56:31
EID:b8e2 20280f00
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f079fd
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30ede5dd
05 Jan 96 22:00, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
PS>
There's no need to be insulting - it was the best I could do within the
limitations of the medium...
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Ark
|Date: 08 Jan 96 01:57:22
EID:f5c5 20280f20
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f07a97
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 30eef349
06 Jan 96 15:02, Robert Jackson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Have you ever read _Silverlock_, by John Myers Myers? (No that
DW>> is not a typo of any sort). It's not a "Really Big Book", but I
DW>> think you'd enjoy it.
RJ> What's it about?
In short, an asshole who gets shipwreck on an island, has adventures, and
learns not to be an asshole. The part that I enjoy is that the author throws
in all kinds of references to mythological people/creatures/places (some
of them are really obscure).
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: lot's daughters
|Date: 08 Jan 96 02:00:24
EID:65cc 20281000
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f07b0d
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 30eef34d
06 Jan 96 16:57, Robert Jackson wrote to David Worrell:
MR>>
DW>> You can wipe that silly assed drooling grin right off your face -
DW>> this shit ain't funny.
RJ> She certainly does tend to rest pretty heavily on grin icons.
RJ> I sometimes have to wonder why--is it that she really *tries*
RJ> to be funny by saying things under the guise of a
RJ> self-loathing misogynist bigot (a number of us get a
RJ> chuckle out of exposing the bile with some Swiftian
RJ> "proposals"), or is it that she really _does_ believe
RJ> too much of the crap she spouts, but she knows it's
RJ> inhuman, and really doesn't want to take any heat for
RJ> her true beliefs?
You forgot one option: She is simply stupid as hell.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Christmas
|Date: 08 Jan 96 02:02:46
EID:b62b 20281040
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f07b7e
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 88FD0E2E
05 Jan 96 21:11, Dan Ceppa wrote to David Worrell:
SQ>> Hey, some of my ancestors were Russian Poles (But not Fission
SQ>> Poles),
DW>> Fission Poles??
DC> Still no luck on the genetic transplant of a pun gene, heh
DC> little guppy?
No luck at all. I did, however, just get the pun, so maybe there's hope
for me yet.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 08 Jan 96 02:03:48
EID:7bb6 20281060
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f07cc4
07 Jan 96 03:19, Asmodeus wrote to David Worrell:
D> A>> 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. I follow a saying
D> A>> that goes more like 'an eye for a limb, a tooth for a head'.
D>>
D>> You can't even get your pithy sayings right, can you? If
D>> someone chops off your arm, all you're going to do is put out his
D>> eye? If someone chops off your head, how are you going to manage
D>> taking one of his teeth? Go buy yourself a clue.
A> Excuse me for posting wrong.
The problem does not lie in the fact that you were wrong; we're all wrong
from time to time. The problem lies with the fact that you're obviously
a stupid shit.
A> At the time I had indulged on some very
A> fine alcoholic beverages and was not totally in my full mind.
You were doing so well. You admitted you made a mistake. Instead of simply
recognizing the mistake and getting on with your life, though, you feel
the need to make up excuses.
Do you really expect us to believe that Pleasant Lake, Michigan, allows
teeny-boppers like yourself access to alcoholic beverages, fine or otherwise?
A> not happen again. I am humbly apologizing, oh mighty god-adorer.
I see you didn't buy a clue yet. Hint: I'm not a "god-adorer".
Try again.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Christmas
|Date: 08 Jan 96 09:05:41
EID:7ffc 202848a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f0dece
REPLY: 1:123/319.0 30eee199
06 Jan 96 15:54, Preston Simpson wrote to Kris OKelly:
KO>> well Jesus is the bese thing that ever happend to me!! in the
KO>> last
PS> How nice for you. You're making this Jesus fellow sound like a decent
PS> brand of coffee.
"We're here in this five star restaraunt where we've secretly replaced
the fine coffee they usually serve with the dust from Jesus' corpse. Let's
see if anybody notices a difference."
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: GAY GENE
|Date: 08 Jan 96 09:10:00
EID:3b68 20284940
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f0dfe5
REPLY: 1:123/319.0 30eee1a2
06 Jan 96 15:54, Preston Simpson wrote to Lynda Bustilloz:
PS>> The Romans had the Coliseum. We might have the freak show.
PS>>
LB>> Day time talk shows.
LB>> We're half way there NOW.
PS> So I had noted. This is a big reason why I try to avoid watching TV
at
PS> all.
My TV died about a week before Christmas. I started to take it to the repair
shop, but decided there were other things I'd rather spend the money on.
It's amazing how much extra I've accomplished in the last few weeks. I
don't think I'll ever take the damn thing in to get fixed.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: VIRGIN
|Date: 08 Jan 96 09:14:57
EID:488c 202849c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f0e0c6
REPLY: 1:138/255 568d947c
06 Jan 96 22:26, Andrew Masten wrote to Dan Ceppa:
AM> I don't deny that the Bible is a basis of reality for me.
AM> Evolution is also a basis of reality. But thats the teaching thats
AM> being forced upon in schools. And thats fine, but why isn't the
AM> alternative reality of creationism being taught??
Do you have any evidence for creationism? If so, please present it. If
not, kindly stop your whining.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 08 Jan 96 09:26:07
EID:7bb6 20284b40
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f0e3eb
07 Jan 96 03:10, Asmodeus wrote to Preston Simpson:
A> #4 Senseless violence is frowned upon by those who are of my
A> religion. Raping and killing mindlessly would fall into the
A> category of senseless violence.
Why? Didn't you tell us in your first message that you believe in the immediate
satisfaction of all your desires? What if you have a desire for senseless
violence? Will you abstain from fullfilling *that* desire?
A> #6 no, i do not come out short. they take my eye, i take their limb.
A> they take my tooth, I take their head.
That's not what you said, chuckles. Try to get it right next time.
A> #7 Give into my id? what do you mean by this?
Have yo considered Christianity? I hear they're looking for brain-dead
types with no education - you'd fit right in.
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Kevin Casey
|Sub: Faith
|Date: 08 Jan 96 09:30:54
EID:3988 20284bc0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 30f0e519
REPLY: 1:280/135 568c9a64
06 Jan 96 04:39, Kevin Casey wrote to Steve Rose:
KC> (see Great Flood). To prove that theory what would happen if both
KC> poles melted at he same time? What could have done this? More later...
The Bible claims that the water level rose over the tops of the highest
mountains. The highest mountain (excluding seamounts) is Everest, which
is close to 30,000 feet high. If you define a hydrosphere as the amount
of water currently present on the Earth, it would take *three* hydrospheres
to acheive this level of flooding. The polar ice caps do not contain two
hydrospheres.
Where'd the water come from, bozo? Where'd the water go?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: ----
|Date: 07 Jan 96 11:21:00
EID:0855 20275aa0
HP> Al's fundy-think would make Orwell feel prophetic indeed.
Odd. I think of your trying to tell us the generally accepted history,
backed by later authors, of who the disciples were, who wrote what...it
reminds me STRIKINGLY of the Ministry rewriting the "history" of the
State's struggle with Oceania.
In other words, history is what we pick and choose it, in your view.
... Your skull is a cerebral cortex compost site.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 07 Jan 96 14:07:00
EID:a47d 202770e0
SPLIT: 8 Jan 96 16:27:22 @116/3000 1 01/02 +++++++++++
If you had said why are there so many televangelists, I might have
AS> agreed with you. Usually I see a church as an extended family of
AS> like minded individuals, who try to care for each other. At least,
AS> that's what I see in the BEST churches. I've seen some real stinkers,
AS> also.
ML> Indeed, most of them have their own cable shows.
AS> What can I say? The flashiest is not always the typical.
ML> But the loudest and most seen.
Yes, if I judged Christianity ONLY on who appears on TV, I would have an
entirely different opinion of it. Luckily, I know it more intimately.
AS> Of creating the coca leaves? Of course. For that matter he made
AS> hemlock and arsenic. So what? Is He responsible that men misuse it?
ML> Sure he is. He KNEW beforehand that it would be abused, yet he
ML> left it there.
Bizarre. Do you advocate then, since you don't believe in God, that we
eliminate species that might be dangerous to Man? I do not want to
eliminate the coca plant, hemlock, arsenic, or many another poisonous
plant. The coca plant can ALSO be used as a good quick natural anesthetic,
also. Perhaps it is THAT way it is meant to be used? Besides, evolution
would dictate that some plants develop chemical ways of discouraging
predators, which would include poisons and toxic chemicals. (In this
regard you might regard cocaine as a mild toxin with averse effects on the
body.) God obviously lets evolution dictate the ebb and flow of living
creatures.
AS> That would be to say that EVERYTHING created is for Man's use or
AS> misuse, a stand I do not take or advocate.
ML> Well, toss that old computer out the window then, Bubba; and
ML> don't you dare eat or drink.
??? From one extreme to the other...if I don't say everything is created
for Man's use or misuse, that doesn't mean we can't use some things, any
more than an ant can't use dirt to make an anthill. But I DO think it
would be the height of ethnocentric thinking to think everything in the
universe was designed and made for man's benefit alone, and to see
everything in that light.
ML> South Americans (particularily Peruvians and Colombians) have
ML> chewed coca leaves since time immemorial.
AS>
AS> No kidding. And is it as an intense a buzz that way when shot up as
AS> cocaine or made into crack crystals? No.
ML> Chew enough of it and it will be.
Sure. By upping the dosage considerably. You have to chew a LOT larger
mass of coca leaves to get the same buzz as mainlaining cocaine or a crack
crystal.
AS> Else they would be
AS> distributing the coca leaves in the inner city
ML> You mean just as in the horticultural practises of the Aztecs
ML> and Mayans?
Exactly. It's free for the picking there, and is it any wonder that they
did it with the Aztecs and Mayans? But if coca leaves gave as good a buzz
as the refined cocaine or crack, it would be the coca leaves that were
distributed, and they wouldn't go to all the bother of the
other,obviously.
AS> (Cocaine was even one
AS> of the original ingredients of Coca Cola, hence the name.)
ML> True. But is this relevant?
Possibly not; save to point out that, among other things, the view of
cocaine has changed with time. Why, last century, cocaine was not viewed
as illegal, and using it or not was a personal decision.
AS> But there
AS> is NOTHING that can be made that can't be misused. Kids sniff glue,
AS> for instance.
ML> And God let glue be made with ingredients that would cause harm
ML> if abused. He let it happen, even though he had all the
ML> knowledge that it would.
Truly bizarre. No doubt he should have made the world into a giant padded
rubber room, where no one can hurt themselves,scratch themselves, where
they are fed tasteless pablum. You can overdose on ASPIRIN, for Pete's
sake! Most things have a useful purpose, but can be misued.
AS> Yeah, people were using it last century too. Sherlock Holmes in Conan
AS> Doyle's stories used to shoot up cocaine, because it wasn't illegal
AS> then. But he didn't use crack rocks or crystals.
ML> Then it's OK that it still causes severe physiological and
ML> psychological harm? Matters of degree are an invalid argument,
ML> Al.
Dr. Leipzig, quite frankly, what you chose to drink to warm yourself on
those long Russian nights and other travels around the world ALSO can
cause severe physiological and psychological harm. Now wait---I am NOT one
of those Christians who believes drinking is a sin and that, despite the
explicit words "bread and wine" and "turning water into wine" thinks they
were talking about grape juice. I have no problem with you drinking. I do
so occasionally myself (usually in private, my wife has so low a tolerance
for alchohol that she could literally get drunk on rum cake, so she
doesn't like to embarass herself in public.). But should we eliminate
corn, so it cannot be made into corn mash for brewing into bourbon? Or
grapes because they can be made into wine? Vodka can be made from rye,
wheat or potatoes. Shall we eliminate those as well? It is man's ingenuity
that has turned those into something that many people regret ever
encountering, as a brother-in-law I have in AA will tell you. Because you
and I can tolerate does not eliminate the fact that many lives have been
ruined by alchohol. There it is INDEED a matter of degree, and it is NOT
an invalid argument. And if you eliminated everything that could make some
sort of alchoholic drink, you would eliminate corn, potatoes, rye, wheat,
grapes--probably nine-tenths of the plants we consume. If we eliminate
those we not only seriously damage the ecology, but cause us to probably
die of malnutrition from not getting the right nutrients.
AS> Right. Prodigal Son, remember. You get to leave. You get to do what
AS> you want. The door is always open, but nothing is forced.
ML> Just remember to do it my way or you'll be condemned to eternal
ML> torment.
"Love your neighbor as yourself". His way is not a bad way.
AS> An Engineer builds a building. He tells people plainly, if you jump
AS> off, you die. And people jump off.
AS> Is it the Engineer's fault?
ML> Hardly. But, then again, the Engineer did not say that you must
ML> bow down to him as creator of that building and that if you use
ML> another building (or none at all) he'll condemn you to an
ML> eternity of writhing in gehenna.
Well, the Engineer WOULD be ticked if someone else was given credit for
building the building, especially someone who doesn't exist. And if He is
truly the Creator of all, then there IS no other building, remember?
ML> Nice guy, this Dad of yours.
AS>
AS> Excellent, actually.
ML> So, you condone child abuse?
By no means. I do not spank my children. Any punishment given them are
time outs, confined to their room, restriction of priveleges, loss of
allowance, etc. I was never struck as a child, and it would be a strange
thing if I started on my own children. I can usually get my speaking son
to obey by threatening cutting of allowance or going to bed a half hour
earlier. The others are usually given time outs. (Physical punishment
rarely works with autistic kids anyway, they tell me---they don't
necessarily connect the punishment with the thing they are being punished
for.)
OTOH, there comes a time of final decision. I know a couple, excellent
parents, don't punish their children physically, raised other children
fine. But one of their children---maybe it was the fact he was adopted,
and there was something like fetal alchohol syndrome in him or
something---but when he reached teenage years, he started lying to them,
cussing them up and down a blue streak, stealing from them and others,
(including helping some "friends" break into his dad's place of business
and stealing computers and fax machines and such), not allowing them to
go
on vacation (always being in trouble he would have court dates or
generally kick about going with them.). Quite frankly, they have put up
with extreme parent abuse. Strange kids would show up in their houses in
the middle of the night. Money was lifted out of the mother's purse. As
far as I can tell, they did not treat him differently because he was
adopted (and I know them well and have known the child since he was ten,
he's now eighteen) except perhaps to make more excuses for him then there
natural children. There may be hidden rage there at not knowing his true
parents, I don't know. But he has quite frankly made much of their life
a
living hell (imagine his father having to tell those over him at the
copany what happened). They have not given up on him. They are still
trying everything they can for him, though he has dropped out of school
and will not take the GED. (And he's a bright kid---I've done some home
schooling for them, gratis.). He can live at home now, and they are trying
everything possible to get him jobs, which is not easy, with his record,
and with his surliness towards employers, rarely lasts long.
At this point...and these parents are still trying--_I_ might let the
kid go. I might say, "You're eighteen, quite frankly you have ruined my
sleep, my happiness and my career, I love you, but if you no longer want
to behave, it is time for you to get out and make your own decisions. If
you want to come back and abide by my rules, please do. But not until
then." And you never know. My nine-year-old is making honor roll at his
school, but things change. It may come to that.
And maybe Hell is that. The ultimate breaking away from God.
ML> But can't an omnipotent God do something without us being
ML> reduced to automata?
AS> No.
ML> Why not?
AS>
AS> Because it is a logical impossibility.
ML> FOR AN OMNIPOTENT GOD?
ML> Hmmmph.
ML> Some "God".
Styx at least understands, when he mentioned that even a omnipotent god
cannot do mutually exclusive things together. Marty, either you exist or
you don't exist. And even GOD cannot make you do both at the same time.
And you can't give people "free will" to do anything within their
abilities and then go, "HEY! Anything but THAT?" If you restrict will, it
isn't free.
AS> Not a physical one. Giving
AS> someone free will but saying their choice is restricted is really
AS> saying they don't have free will. As Aquinas, not to mention G.K.
AS> Chesterton, said, it is not restricting God's power to keep Him from
AS> doing nonsense. You may have noticed the tempest in a teapot about the
AS> creation of seven-sided triangles. God cannot make a seven-sided
AS> triangle, because a triangle that is seven-sided, is, by definition,
a
AS> meaningless noise. A triangle has three sides. God can't make a world
AS> of married bachelors, for the very same reason. As G.K. Chesterton
AS> once said, it would be in the power of an omnipotent God to make a
AS> beanstalk that grew into the clouds, a la Jack of the Beanstalk. But
AS> even God cannot make a world where the three beans in Jack's right
AS> hand and the four beans in Jack's left hand don't add up to seven
AS> beans. Or that old Sunday School silliness, can God make a stone so
AS> massive He cannot pick it up? The answer is no. Because if you reduce
AS> the question down to symbolic logic, a stone that an omnipotent being
AS> cannot pick up is a logical impossiblity.
ML> Apologetics, Al? Sounds like your omnipotent God is quite
ML> tethered by the constructs of man.
By no means. He is constrained by LOGIC, however. Or reason. Ever read the
short story, "The Invisible Man" by G.K. Chesterton, that has a small
Roman Catholic priest as the detective? In another short story about that
same priest, Father Brown, he says, "No, reason is always reasonable, even
in the last limbo, in the lost borderland of things. I know that people
charge the Church with lowering reason, but it just the other way. Alone
on earth, the Church affirms that God Himself is bound by reason." And he
caught a crook in that story who was pretending to be a priest because,
as
he told the thief, "'You attacked reason,' said Father Brown. 'It's bad
theology.'"
AS> God is not bound by Man's ability to utter nonsense.
ML> Or reality, it appears.
Um. But that's the point under debate right now.
ML> But, Al, we're not God. Surely a omnipotent being could think
ML> up something...
AS>
AS> Everybody says that, but that's a cop-out.
ML> Why is that? It's no more a cop-out than your apologetics.
I make no apology for my "apologetics". It looks so much like apology
that it makes it sound like I have something to apologize FOR. But by
definition, any defense of the concept of God is apologetics.
AS> A creation must be
AS> logically consistent,
ML> Well, so much for miracles.
ML> So much for God.
Oh?
Show it, Marty. Show us that a temporary interruption of the laws of
physics---but not the laws of logic--is logically inconsistent. Show that
a Designer of such is also logically inconsistent.
AS> or else it will fall apart. Some things cannot
AS> be done, omnipotent or not...and if you want to say this makes Him
AS> less than omnipotent, fine, I won't quibble.
ML> Accepting defeat is the noble way to end an argument.
ML> Thank you, Al.
As I told two others, I'm not greedy. A being who can do anything that
is logically consistent, is the source for all the power in the universe,
being its creator, and therefore as great or greater than the aggregate
of
that power....if you consider that a wimpish God or less than omnipotent,
go ahead. The ability to do the logically inconsistent we'll leave to the
Cosmic Star Goat with its followers of married bachelors, on its throne
shaped like a seven-sided triangle. Or Daisy the invisible pink flying
hippo, with the three churches in Daisy's name in America, and the four
in
Europe, which nevertheless add up to eight churches. ROFL!!!
AS> But it's been the
AS> Christian view since 1300s or so.
ML> Argumentum ad numerum de anni.
Not really. Just stating that it is the generally held Christian position,
so that saying Christians believe in a God who could make things mututally
inconsistent is a misrepresenation.
ML> "We've always done it that way. Why change now?"
Because it makes no SENSE the other way, perhaps?
AS> Letting people make their own
AS> decisions but NOT letting them do things that are harmful to
AS> themselves or others is one of them.
ML> Then, by that statement, why ascribe to what is obviously
ML> human nature, to some deity?
Odd. I thought I was. Even the parable of the Fall makes that assertion,
that Man makes his own decisions. That's what free will is about.
AS> Did you ever see CLOCKWORK ORANGE? Alex was a rapist and a murderer.
AS> But after his "treatment" the audience is rooting for HIM and
AS> horrified by what he has to go through. Why? Because if you can't
AS> decide,you might as well be a robot.
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: 2 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 07 Jan 96 14:07:00
EID:e53f 202770e0
SPLIT: 8 Jan 96 16:27:22 @116/3000 1 02/02 +++++++++++
ML> I have decided and have no preprogrammed actions, texts nor
ML> services I MUST do. Religion abounds in all of the
ML> aforementioned.
Depends. I have been in some very freeform churches. But yes, ritual has
a
binding power, just like saluting the flag or saying the Pledge of
Allegiance does. I imagine you taught your kids to say "please", "sir" and
"ma'am" but those are mere linguistic conventions, not necessary for the
main import of the message. Such show respect.
OTOH, there are some actions that, if not preprogrammed, at least are
beneficial to the being. Regular aerobics three times a week, at least,
for instance. Brushing your teeth. Regular resistance training to increase
muscle tone. All of those must be done at regular intervals, not too close
but not too far apart. (It is the mark of a neophyte in a gym to go in and
hit ALL the machines every day, in a burst of enthusiasm. Experienced
hands will shake their heads and go "overtraining" and might enlighten him
that he is defeating his own purpose if he works the same muscle group
more than two to three times a week.) Bathing. Paying taxes every April.
Many people medidate to avoid the stress of day to day life from getting
to them. (I might note that it has recently been asserted in this echo
that religious people live longer. If so...maybe there is a benefit to US
in worship of some sort.)
ML> Now, just who is the automaton, Dr. Asimov?
Neither of us. For instance, though this is Sunday, I did NOT go to
church. A wife with the flu and some eight inches of snow (unusual for
Nashville) made the decision relatively painless, especially if you have
ever seen other Nashville drivers in the snow---Nashville drivers are
horrible in GOOD conditions, in the snow they are pitiful. I go because
I
like to go, though. I have friends there, my kids like it there (the
deluxe playground doesn't hurt either.) and yes, it is more than a social
club, there is a sense of communion with God. There are also some good
arguments to be gotten in by the Sunday School classes, one I favor being
taught by one of our elders, a college professor with a broad knoweldge
of
history.
AS> Well, you wouldn't be in unthinkable misery for refusing to bow and
AS> scrape, anyway.
ML> I could be ("Look, I came here for an argument".).
Okay. Happy to oblidge...
ML> I could have been pummeled by some God-soaked crazy at some
ML> international airport that now causes me unthinkable misery.
Or shot by Paul Hill. Or had a daughter who was a Branch Davidian and is
now toast. Good point. Or,
ML> "See, I've run circles around you logically."
Don't let one point given go to your HEAD, Marty.
AS> It falls on the just and the unjust. If you WERE, and
AS> I were close enough to do something for you, I would, BTW.
ML> Who are _you_ to judge?
I'm sorry, I must not have made it clear. I meant if you were in
unthinkable misery I would help you if I were close enough to. Not if you
were unjust. You are right there that I have no right to judge. But my
intent was to help those in unthinkable misery, not punish the "unjust".
If I started doing that, I'd have to punish everybody.
AS> OTOH, I do see a need for seperation.
ML> Why?
AS>
AS> Imagine Grigor-Scott and his rascist, antiSemitic nonsense.
ML> Please. I'm eating...
He affects me the same way.
AS> Now
AS> imagine he can spin his theories...forever. People get channelized in
AS> ways of thinking. Imagine Hitler...forever. Torequemada...forever.
AS> Charmers like Caligula and Giles de Rais. What's the point of having
AS> them around FROEVER to spread their poison, in a place where really
AS> decent people can be?
ML> Well, Al, I think I've never seen such an argument for free
ML> will and Hector's Law ever rolled into one.
ML> Until now.
As you will. But if he extinguishes such beings, and allows others to
live, some would call him a heartless tyrant (present company, I think,
not excepted.). But seperation from the evil--it would seem at least an
economical choice. Either that are letting such beings be extinguished
forever, never mind what others think.
AS> What sort of afterlife would
AS> it be, if Hitler was there and, seeing David, declared war on him for
AS> being a Jew? (Or for that matter, Torquemada doing ditto)?
ML> As silly as the Heaven offered by true believers.
Nope. At least there, there is some selection of who goes in, and
presumably the bloodthirsty need not apply.
AS>
AS> Tipler thinks everybody will be recreated in a "virtual identity" at
AS> the end of time by what he calls the Omega Point.
ML> Good for him. Bruno von Grezman thinks the end is just that,
ML> the end.
Just naming a non-theistic example of a possible way to view things.
I don't believe in Tipler's theory on the Omega Point either.
ML> So?
AS> Suppose such an
AS> Omega Point throws everybody together, helter skelter.
ML> Suppose all you want, it won't make it any more real.
If no hypothesis was ever entertained, there would be precious little
progress in science.
AS> What is that
AS> but repeating the follies of history only on a larger scale?
ML> Cyclicity.
Yes. And ultimately futile. Which is why I reject it.
AS> Would YOU
AS> like an eternal Jeff Dalmer crawling around Heaven, just looking for
AS> someone to torture?
ML> Not at all! But since it's all a religious construct, I guess
ML> nothing's too silly.
It IS an exercise for the imagination, as I describe it.
AS>
AS> Ok. Take it out of the religious sphere. Suppose someone tomorrow
AS> invented a way for people to live forever. Would you give it to Jeff
AS> Dalmer, if he were still alive? OR Sharon Smith, who drowned her kids
AS> and tried to blame it on a nameless black man? Or the guy behind the
AS> OKC bombing? _I_ wouldn't. And if I did, I would make SURE they were
AS> someplace where they couldn't threaten us again.
ML> Why not? Suppose, as in all your supposing, if they were eternal,
ML> so would be everyone else. What danger would they pose?
Torture? Pain? Constant fear? I would fear torture much more than death,
and Dahlmer wasn't above that. Would you rather be one of those who died
quickly in the gas "showers" at a concentration camp, or slowly starve
like some of the other inmates? I just said live forever (and I could have
made it just not die from old age, and let people die by violence) but
even if you take it to mean totally immune from death, that does not mean
immune from torture, pain, and the various other pangs you can go through.
ML> Sorry, al. You're hoist upon your own gedankenexperiment.
Psssst. Marty. I'm down here.
AS> That's the point. We are thrown here to learn to choose good without
AS> being forced to. Our present world is very much like that. But it is
AS> one thing to have it like that right now, for a limited amount of
AS> time. No matter how lonely, no matter how painful an existence we have
AS> here, we also know it will pass.
ML> Now there's a keen grasp of the obvious.
Better than to ignore the obvious.
AS> Some hurry it, with the aid of people
AS> like Jack Kervorkian.
ML> Don't start, Al. Have you ever had a loved one in the ravages
ML> of terminal disease?
Family member? Not in the sense you mean. I've certainly known many at the
hospital who are dying slowly, painfully, by inches (a church is at its
best an extended family, and there are always people facing surgery,
facing death.) I've been lucky, personally. My father died this year, and
yes, I did live through his triple bypass some twenty years ago, and moved
back to help him then, and it was _I_ (not my mother, who sleeps soundly)
who heard him two months later, late at night, when a blood clot had
entered his leg and he was in agony. But his death was the gentlest...he
had been working in his garden the day before in his own home, and had
died peacefully in his sleep. Whatever he died of, I hope the manner
(although at a greater age) of death is INHERITED. My grandmother died ten
years ago or so, and though had some afflictions, fell down the stairs in
her own home.
OTOH, I had a friend who was 21 when he learned he had a malignant
cancer spread throughout the body. His wife of two years and his young
daughter left him, a few months before. I watched him go through the
ravages of chemotherapy. I know he pleaded with his ex-wife to see his
daughter one last time, and she wouldn't. I remember HIS death at 22,
Marty. I remember it very well.
ML> Monomolecular frozen H2O, Herr Schreoder. And you're treading
ML> upon it.
Marty, I'm sorry if I raked old wounds, and if you went through such an
experience. But read this again...
AS> Some hurry it, with the aid of people
AS> like Jack Kervorkian.
Now, did I say a word of disapproval about Kervorkian? Isn't his express
purpose to hurry the passing of those with diseases which would make them
linger in pain? Don't read into it more than is written. And whatever your
loss, however, accept my apologies if I stirred old wounds.
AS> But that's the point. You're not a tyrant if you let others act out
AS> what they want. You're only a tyrant if you force them to do something
AS> they don't want to do.
ML> You're a tyrant if you created it all, set it up and let it run
ML> knowing beforehand that it would happen that way.
I think God knew there was a possibility of it turning out that way. I
ALSO think there had to be a real chance that---whatever process the
parable of Adam and Eve was symbolic of--that Man could have chosen the
other way, and not "fallen" for lack of a better word.
AS> And it might be simple extinction, as I said. Some verses
AS> hint at this. But I don't know.
AS> Nah. I'm a Christian.
ML> Of which I am glad. If that gives you pleasure/succor/peace;
ML> fine. But your brethren who tell me that I'm a heinous
ML> blasphemer and that I'll burn in Hell really try my Volitarian
ML> inclinations.
I've already been roasted by Staal for defending you. As if EITHER of us
could judge. "Prejudice is the reason of fools" wrote Voltaire.
ML> They're your (or their) rules, Al. Don't save me a seat in Hell
ML> as I think it does not exist.
That's fine. I have no intention of saving you a seat in Hell. But it
would be a great pleasure to see you another place, rather than the
oblivion you expect.
... A long dispute means both parties are wrong.--Voltaire
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: Lon S. Mabon
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 08 Jan 96 04:09:36
EID:0a4b 20282120
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 30f13673
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Lon S. Mabon <=-
PS> An interesting claim. Support the claim that there was a global flood.
PS> Of course, you may not resort to the Bible. Get cracking, junior.
PS> And it still doesn't support the claim of a global flood. So why do
PS> you persist in believing a myth?
Myth!? I know of no 'myth' that I believe in.
PS> And you are clearly failing. To follow the Christian standard utterly
PS> would require a degree of perfection that does not exist in humanity.
LSM> Doesn't keep me from trying, Preston...
PS> Doesn't keep you from failing, either.
True...but I keep trying.
PS> Your religion demands perfection. You are not able to give it, yet you
PS> adhere to said religion. Need I expound further?
Just because a person does not attain his set goals does not make him a
hypocrite, Preston.
PS> I have the ability to admit that I make mistakes and that I'm
PS> not perfect.
LSM> Myself as well. Probably more so, as you have stated, my goals are
a
LSM> bit higher...
PS> I seriously doubt the latter.
You are the one who made the statement.
LSM> I take total responsibility for my failings. You last statement has
LSM> no foundation whatsoever. If anyting, the opposite is true:
PS> Then why do you keep sinning, sinner?
My human nature. The same one you possess.
PS>Who leads the nobler lifestyle? The one who takes the
PS> consequences for his actions or the one who believes that it doesn't
PS> really matter as long as he asks for forgiveness?
LSM> I know of no true Christian who could possibly hold to your theory
LSM> here. I no of none who do.
PS> Define a "true Christian" and explain who made you God in the
PS> meantime.
A true Christian is one who not only claims the title, but desires ever
greater knowledge of the Word and who acts upon it to the best of
his/her ability. Such a person knows that the Bible expressly forbids
wanton sinning after being saved 'that grace may abound'. God forbid!
PS>Who leads the nobler lifestyle? The one who takes the
PS> consequences for his actions or the one who believes that it doesn't
PS> really matter as long as he asks for forgiveness?
No practicing Christian could ever take such a fatalistic and false
approach to his/her Christianity.
PS> explain who made you God in the meantime.
Where would you even get such an idea?
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Lon S. Mabon
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 08 Jan 96 04:10:47
EID:34f8 20282140
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 30f13674
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Lon S. Mabon <=-
DC> @MSGID: 1:350/401.0 88FD0E34
-> On 01-05-96 02:42, Lon S. Mabon got back to Luke Clark
LSM> Where in the Bible does it say God is 'omnibenevolent'? The Bible
LSM> clearly says the opposite:
DC> Oh, your god is omnimalevolent!
DC> Thanks for clearing that up.
Interesting how you edit the post to make it appear to say something
that it does not. The scripture clearly pointed out that God is
selective in His benevolentcy.
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Re: ----
|Date: 07 Jan 96 03:38:15
EID:7713 20271cc0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09882
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Robert, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
MR> But what civil law did Jesus break? On his cross was pinned "King of
MR> the Jews". But why was he crucified? Because of the influence of the
MR> Sanhedrin on Pilate, a man with no backbone.
RJ>
RJ> Suppose (can you answer a hypothetical question? I ask,
RJ> because it seems a number of your correligionists can't)
RJ> you were the governor of a quarrelsome people living on
RJ> a hot clod of sand. Political tensions have been building
RJ> up for a couple of centuries, and the last thing you want
RJ> to tell Tiberius is that you've just caused a sensitive area
RJ> of his empire to explode in civil war. Sure, you can send
RJ> legions in to crush the revolt, but who needs the hassle?
RJ> So anyway, you have this little pisher wandering around
RJ> calling himself King. What would you rather do--nail a
RJ> carpenter with delusions of grandeur to a piece of wood, or let
RJ> the mess get thick and send in the army to mop up the mess?
RJ> Remember, these are different times, individual lives mean
RJ> nothing. Your choice is pretty clear, considering who's
RJ> buttering your bread.
I understand what you are driving at. I do understand Pilate's reasoning
behind his decision. But he didn't do it according to Roman law. He broke
his own law in order to appease the masses. In this day and age if any governor
usurped any authority and
broke a law in the process, he would be railroaded out of office and imprisoned.
... Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: ----
|Date: 07 Jan 96 03:55:14
EID:f1fa 20271ee0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09884
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Jim, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting Maria Russell to Kenneth Mcabee <=-
MB> But when a little girl is being repeated raped by her step-father,
MB> Mikey's god doesn't deem it necessary. I find that very, very
MB> revealing.
MB> I really don't see how believers can be believers without
MB> upchucking.
MR> People are so willing to blame God for such a horrendous thing, but
I
MR> have yet to hear anyone say how horrible the step-father was. Why
MR> aren't people willing to blame it on the sinful action of the
MR> individual?
JS> I find it rather humerous when some of these bone heads here who
JS> profess God does not exist and then turn around and bad mouth Him for
JS> these kinds of happenings. What a laugh. This is the plight of the
JS> 'Better Educated' [TM].
Yea, that is rather intriging!
THERE IS NO GOD! THERE IS NO GOD! BUT IT'S HIS FAULT THE WAY THE WORLD IS
... Is God GOOD or what?
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: ----
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:08:19
EID:c8eb 20272100
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09888
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Dan, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-> On 01-01-96 15:37, Maria Russell got back to Dan Ceppa
-> On 12-28-95 09:09, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> So, just how did Saul recognize Jesus? He had no personal contact,
AS> Why, Dan, EVERYBODY knows Jesus has this long flowing light brown
AS> hair, and a small beard, and looks too ethereal to have ever been a
DC> Yes, that describes most everyone in that era....
MR>
MR> Dan, you are watching too many made-for-TV movies. Most did not have
DC> You are quite wrong in that. You are even more wrong in your
DC> reading comprehension and have an extreme lack of the requisite
DC> humor gene.
Then why was it a shame for a man to have long hair, Dan?
MR> only had the long hair, as shown in Numbers 6:1-5. These men were
MR> "separated" unto God. They also abstained
MR> from wine.
DC> Then, by all means, do explain why an abstainer of wine would go
DC> out of his way to change some 60 gallons of water into wine.
Now if you hadn't chopped up my quote you would have known that it was the
Nazarite that had the long hair and abstained from wine. But Jesus was a
NAZARENE. That means he was from Nazareth. A Nazarite belonged to a sect.
I know you don't believe what I
am saying so check it out for yourself.
... Unknown Error on Unknown Device for Unexplainable Reason
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: ----
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:42:10
EID:25c5 20272540
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f0988d
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Preston, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Maria Russell mumbled "Re: ----"
MR> Ken, if they couldn't blame God, then they would realize that it is
MR> they themselves that are accountable for their own actions; to them
MR> that's a frightening thought.
PS> Not to me. The idea that I am responsible for what I do, while
PS> awesome, is hardly frightening. It means that I have to act like a
PS> responsible human being, rather than expecting someone (or some god)
to
PS> take the fall for what I did.
Taking responsibility also means being willing to admit that you do wrong
things and make wrong decisions. Many aren't willing to admit that.
... Atheist haven't an answer for prayer.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: RE: ----
|Date: 07 Jan 96 05:01:15
EID:227d 20272820
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09891
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>AL, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
AS> Why, Dan, EVERYBODY knows Jesus has this long flowing light brown
AS> hair, and a small beard, and looks too ethereal to have ever been a
DC> Yes, that describes most everyone in that era....
MR>
MR> Dan, you are watching too many made-for-TV movies. Most did not have
MR> the long hair (men had beards, yes), in fact it was the Nazarites that
MR> only had the long hair, as shown in Numbers 6:1-5. These men were
MR> "separated" unto God. They also abstained from wine. But other than
MR> the Nazarites having long hair, it was not acceptable. I Corinthians
MR> 11:14 even says it's a shame for a man to have long hair.
AS> Maria, he was JOKING, as was I. See the ?
His retort to me showed otherwise....but oh well.
AS> ... He who laughs, lasts.
AS> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
AS> -!- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
AS> ! Origin: Silver Xpress Mail System (1:116/3000)
... Page your Sysop at 3 am for free prizes.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: ----
|Date: 07 Jan 96 20:37:40
EID:c8eb 2027a4a0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098ab
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Dan, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-> On 12-31-95 07:43, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Sorry, Al, but the story was contrived to make the man fit into
DC> the myth that was pulled out of the OT to show that he was the
DC> messiah. This also goes to the genealogies listed to show his
DC> lineage to David. Add to this an unfounded census to make the
DC> birth happen in Bethlehem.
The point of listing the geneologies is to show the fulfillment of the OT
prophecies.
And how were the census unfounded.....documentation please.
AS> to Marilyn when we were discussing the virginity of Mary (endlessly,
AS> it seems like it) His birth isn't anywhere near as important as His
AS> death...and what did or did not happen afterwards.
DC> Which is why the birth tale was devised. Without his "miraculous"
DC> birth, you don't have a god, but just a preacher and revolutionary.
Can you PROVE that it was made up? Documentation please.
... Lord, please bless Dan Ceppa.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Linda Whitten
|Sub: Re: ----
|Date: 08 Jan 96 00:46:41
EID:d81b 202805c0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098c3
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Linda, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
LW> Linterah caught Kenneth Cat Herding!
KM> Sunday December 31 1995 09:47, Marilyn Burge mumbled to Kenneth
KM> Mcabee:
MB>> But when a little girl is being repeated raped by her step-father,
MB>> Mikey's god doesn't deem it necessary. I find that very, very
MB>> revealing.
MB>> I really don't see how believers can be believers without
MB>> upchucking.
KM>> What do you expect God to interveen on everything that happens on
KM>> this planet? That's it, blame God for everything, let's not point the
KM>> fingers at Satan or sin, that might be to close to the truth of what
KM>> is wrong with this world.
LW>
LW> Kenneth, the point is that 9 out of ten times this step-father is
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And I'm presuming you have the documentation to support that one?
LW> Christian. He believes that his God thinks this is okay. After all,
LW> many of the families in the Bible were very closely related.
And of course, you also can show this one...other than Adam and Eve's kids?
LW> Again, a lot of the suffering abused children suffer comes from the
^^^
LW> Christian quarter of the world. I'm not saying that all Christians
LW> are like this (I do know a few very wonderful Christian folk.), but
a
LW> substantial number of them are abusive to their wives and children and
^^^^^^^^^^^
LW> think it is okay when they go to church every Sunday.
You know the rhetoric....data please?
KM> No he did not stand around and let humans suffer. He loved us so much
KM> that he gave us our own will. The human suffering in the world only
LW> Free will. Yes, many a "good" Christian uses his free will to hurt,
^^^^
LW> maim, cripple or kill another human being.
And atheists and pagans don't, huh? Hmmmmmmm, that must mean that most of
our prisons are filled with Christians then? Please document that.
KM> proves two things, one that we really need God, two that there are a
KM> bunch of atheist running the world. Kenneth Mcabee
LW> No it doesn't. It just goes to show you that the man who allowed his
^^^
LW> son to die on the cross to forgive we mere mortals our sins is a cruel
LW> and unkind God.
^^^^
Which one is it? God or man? Make up your mind.
LW> And for his son to follow his directions blindly, shows that he was
LW> not thinking for himself.
Since the Father and the Son are one in the same....means He was thinking.
... An atheist is one with no visible means of support.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: 2 HOLYSMOKE.FAQ.AB
|Date: 07 Jan 96 05:03:16
EID:02a0 20272860
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09892
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Jim, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Maria Russell <=-
LB> No one thought you were misspelling it, we've simply been trying to
get
LB> across to you that it wasn't an accidental misspelling.
JS> A sure sign of a problem with a 'christian' in this echo is when they
JS> begin to use the word 'we' when posting to you something negative.
Oh, she's a Christian? Oh, "we" didn't know that
You can't tell the players without the scorecard here
... Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 07 Jan 96 03:59:51
EID:c373 20271f60
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09885
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Jim, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting Maria Russell to AL SCHROEDER <=-
AS> the Scriptures themselves say this--in Romans Paul talks of good
AS> actions being a pagan's "advocate" before the Lord, that it shows the
AS> "Law etched on their hearts". It's not stressed from the pulpit, but
AS> it should be. Because it's right there.
MR>
MR> Where's that found?
JS> I think perhaps he is making reference to:
JS> (Rom 2:13 NIV) For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous
JS> in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared
JS> righteous.
JS> (Rom 2:14 NIV) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do
by
JS> nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even
JS> though they do not have the law,
JS> (Rom 2:15 NIV) since they show that the requirements of the law are
JS> written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and
JS> their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
AS> I don't
AS> think you, for instance, would be thrown away by any reasonable God,
AS> from what I know of you.
JS> I find this quite interesting that Al would think that for the sake
JS> of a 'good deed' this heinous blasphemer (M. Leipzig), brutal abuser
JS> of those who profess God's name would be spared eternal damnation. Not
JS> a shred of scripture to support this apostate theory.
True, for then it becomes a salvation based upon works and we know that
isn't scriptural.
AS> I think that incident, for instance, where
AS> you helped rebuild that church after the storm (that WAS you, right?)
AS> shows indications of a good heart. I would be a lot more comfortable
AS> in the place YOU would end up, then say, Torquemada or Vlad Tepes,
AS> both avowed Christians.
JS> I know nothing of Torquemada or Vlad Tepes, but I do know Mr.
JS> Leipzig. As if one act that God considers to be nothing more than the
JS> rag of a menstruating woman (Isaiah 64:6) with out one shred of belief
JS> in Jesus would save a man...
Revelation 21 talks about men being judged by their works at the judgement...but
damnation is still damnation. It isn't a prison cell with cable and tennis
courts.
... Jesus died for your sins. Make it worth his effort.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: RE: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 07 Jan 96 05:25:55
EID:c44c 20272b20
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09893
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>AL, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
AS> Sure. What do you want God to do, though, drop a golden pot at the
AS> end of the seventh generation or something? It's up to us to help our
AS> fellow men.
MR>
MR> It would be better if we gave him a fishing pole instead of a fish,
MR> which is contrary to most welfare programs today.
AS> But either way, it is up for us to do that.
Very true, but not only us.
AS> Not sure on that; some people think Hell (if that's what you're
AS> referring to) may just mean extinction of the soul. And really, isn't
AS> that what you, as an atheist, expect anyway? Nor do I think that God
AS> tosses away souls that are good that just don't happen to be Christian
AS> (or Islamic, or Buddhist, or whatever you conceive God to be). In fact
AS> the Scriptures themselves say this--in Romans Paul talks of good
AS> actions being a pagan's "advocate" before the Lord, that it shows the
AS> "Law etched on their hearts". It's not stressed from the pulpit, but
AS> it should be. Because it's right there.
MR>
MR> Where's that found?
AS> In Romans 2:13. "For it is not those who hear the law who are
AS> righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law that are
AS> declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do
AS> by nature thigns required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
AS> even though they do not have the law, since they show that the
AS> requirements of the law ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCES
AS> ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts now accusing, now even
AS> defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge
AS> men's actions through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
^^^^^^
Continue with Romans 10:8-9.
"But what sayeth it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and thy heart:
that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
The gospel still needs to be heard and the actions for salvation taken.
" NIV. The
AS> Jerusalem Bible translates it thusly, starting at 2:14. "For instance,
AS> pagans who never heard of the Law but are led by reason to do what the
AS> Law commands, may not actually 'possess' the Law, but they can be said
AS> to 'be' the Law. They can point to the substance of the Law engraved
AS> on their hearts--they can call a witness, that is, their own
AS> conscience--they have accusation and defense, that is, their own
AS> mental dialogue...on the day when, according to the Good News I
AS> preach, God through Jesus Christ, judges the secrets of mankind."
But if they never accepted the salvation of God, their works are naught.
You are implying a salvation based upon good works. If good works is all
that is necessary to attain salvation, then why did God bother sending Jesus
to die for us?
AS> It's not like that. You slip up, you say, "Hey, I screwed up," and
AS> that's that. It's called forgiveness.
MR>
MR> No, forgiveness is given upon repentence. Acknowledging the wrong and
MR> repenting of it are two different things.
AS> Is it? If you acknowledge it is "wrong" aren't you repenting of
AS> having done it? But we're getting into word games here.
No, not at all. Repentence is a "turning" from sin, not merely an acknowledgment
of wrongdoing.
AS> A father. Notice the long list of "shall nots" was mostly at the
AS> beginning, as you give your kids a list of rules..."don't touch the
AS> bottles with the skull and crossbones, don't jump into the washing
AS> machine, no, you CAN'T drive the car..." And those rules change as
AS> the son gets older.
MR>
MR> Are you saying that God's rules change. also?
AS>
AS> Yes. "God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature,
AS> was unable to do," he said, again in Romans 8:3. Yes, HE is the same,
AS> "yesterday, today and tomorrow." But he has to take into account we
AS> aren't.
Read verse 2:
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from
the law of sin and death."
Now put in your verse 3:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God
sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned
sin in the flesh."
And lastly verse 4 (the three verses needs to be put together)
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT
after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Al, these verses deal with the saved only. Not someone who is doing a good
deed.
AS> You give your sixteen year old the keys to the
AS> car, you let him dollop out the rat poison. You haven't changed...he
AS> has. But some things DON'T change.
MR>
MR> Yea, God's rules.
AS>
AS> Maria, does EVERY law that bound us in the OT still bind us? Peter
AS> had a revelation that the dietary laws no longer need bind him. Yes,
AS> Jesus came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. But afterwards,
AS> there seems to be a difference. Otherwise much of what Paul says makes
AS> no SENSE. Romans, 10:4. "But now the Law has come to an end with
AS> Christ, and everyone who has faith may be justified."
Everyone who has faith in CHRIST is justified...not someone that can do
a good work.
AS> warn. Notice that Paul said we no longer lived under the Law, but by
AS> Grace.
MR> Meaning that the law can no longer condemn us, not that we don't need
MR> to keep them before us.
AS>
AS> But surely SOME laws no longer bind us...unless you believe that a
AS> maimed individual should not attend church services? (Check your Old
AS> Testament.)
We are no longer under the law, IF we are saved through faith in Christ.
The adherance to the laws do not save either. The adherence in OT times
"covered" the sins. But not now.
AS> To a certain extent; except He leaves the door open to more
AS> involvement.
What do you mean?
AS> But He's not going to fix everything in this life; and
AS> never promised to. You step through the door, and it's YOU He's going
AS> to change, not the world.
MR>
MR> Change a few and it can effect the world. Look at the effect a small
MR> group of people caused 2000 years ago.
AS> No question. But it starts with changing the individauls.
Very true.
... God said it, I believe it, that settles it!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 07 Jan 96 23:34:15
EID:ba48 2027bc40
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098c0
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Judith, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Judith Bandsma <=-
KW> Judith, would you mind telling a bit about this? How do they work
KW> revivals from the inside?
JB> Most of the WORK involves finding sites, getting permits, paying off
JB> the local police. I know that's hard for some to believe, but almost
JB> all places we ever set up required a 'donation' to the local sheriff.
JB> Negotiating that donation's size could be the hardest part of all. Then
JB> arranging for electricity, water, etc. Not the glamourous stuff it
JB> might seem.
========================rest of claptrap deleted=======================
Only PROVES that there are still charlatans in the world and YOU are part
of it. The revival I assisted in didn't have the trappings you showed. OURs
were sincere!!!! You are a total mockery!!!! And you accuse Christians of
behaving contrary to what they
"preach". Can you say HYPOCRISY? Can you say THIEF? Can you say LIAR? Can
you say APOSTASY?
... Where am I going? And, WHY AM I IN THIS HANDBASKET?????
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Re: Abortion
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:09:52
EID:4ace 20272120
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09889
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Ryan, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
RS> Maria Russell wrote in a message to Sean McCullough:
SM> By having far and away too many of them because they've been taught
SM> that "Ghod Will Provide" for them even if the land itself CAN'T.
MR> Hey Sean, the subject matter is AFRICA. The Africans have been
MR> having children long before any missionary came along.
RS> But it wasn't until colonization and the conversion of the people of
RS> Africa to christianic faith that it became a problem.
Not at all. There's been famines and pestilence since the beginning of time.
See Egypt in Old Testament.
... No you cannot call 911! I'm downloading my mail!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: Abortion
|Date: 07 Jan 96 21:18:08
EID:3afc 2027aa40
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b3
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Lynda, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
LB> David and Dick were killing time yakking about Abortion:
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Maria Russell <=-
LB> Hi, Dick! Welcome to Holysmoke.
LB> To get you up to speed on the participants of this particular
LB> conversation, Maria IS a literalist. David is not a Christian, does
Thank you for the compliment. I'm glad my position is clear. But I am still
wondering about yours. Are you a Christian? I really can't tell.
... God would just LOVE to enter into chat mode with you!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: ABORTION
|Date: 08 Jan 96 00:12:22
EID:b8cb 20280180
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098c1
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Judith, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting Dick Holm to David Worrell <=-
DH> The pain of childbirth is therefore no more than the straining of
DH> muscles not used to doing any work, and the stretching of tissues.
We
DH> can understand that when it happens to other muscles and other
DH> tissues. Why do we have to maintain an older mythology for birth?
JB> You need to read a little more to understand where a thread is coming
JB> from. Maria is the literalist who BELIEVES that the pain of childbirth
JB> is from 'Eve's curse'.
Show me otherwise.
JB> Although you only hear crickets chirping when
JB> you ask her why other female animals also suffer during birth, when
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Speak for yourself!
JB> But then Maria doesn't believe
JB> in poverty, hunger and homelessness either, except that IF it happens,
JB> it's because the people it happens to are too lazy to do something
JB> about it.
So show me I'm wrong.
JB> David was trying to make her see that her positions make no sense when
JB> confronted with facts.
What facts? I've seen none.
... And I KNOW you'll be getting right back to me with the EVIDENCE.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: abortions
|Date: 07 Jan 96 21:02:43
EID:695d 2027a840
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b1
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Andrew, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
AM> to your last comment about prolifers feeding there hatred and wanting
AM> more. I say it is the pro choice crowd that is shoving there agenda
AM> down my throat. Forcing me to pay for abortions that I think are
AM> wrong. If they get there way my daughter could have an abortion
AM> without out my consent. A nurse can't even dispence aspirin, but an
AM> abortion??
And the antitheists think they have cornered the market on logic...
... Are we being too literal?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Re: Africa
|Date: 07 Jan 96 06:44:35
EID:014d 20273580
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f0989e
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Sean, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
> -=> Quoting Sean McCullough to Martin Goldberg <=-
>> CM> It seems that you can not follow threads. We were discussing
>> CM> Africa, and the poor quality land. Not weather.
>> The real point of discussion was your stinking god's inability to do
>> anyting about the starving in africa. Maybe I should phrase this so
>> that someone as ignorqnt as you see to be can understand it.
>> "How do the parents of kids become responsible for the poor land
>> conditions?"
> SM> By having far and away too many of them because they've been taught
> SM> that "Ghod Will Provide" for them even if the land itself CAN'T.
> Hey Sean, the subject matter is AFRICA. The Africans have been having
> children long before any missionary came along.
SM> Not so many of them THAT THE LAND THEY LIVED ON WOULD NO LONGER
SM> SUSTAIN THEM.
SM> Deal with the whole question, please.
Oh yes! That's why many of the African tribes are nomadic. When the land
is used up or the herds diminish...they move on.
I consider the question dealty with, how about you?
... You're it! You're it! You're it! You're it! (Tag line)
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Re: animals
|Date: 07 Jan 96 06:21:21
EID:bb80 202732a0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f0989a
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Rob, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
MR> RB> You say they do, I say they don't. Who's right? Do you have any
MR> RB> evidence for human souls?
MR>
MR> The same that I have that brings me to believe in my God....faith. But
take
MR> ment and think about something. What makes us different from the highest
fo
MR> animal life?
RB> You mean giraffes?
No, the answer is souls....giraffes don't have any
MR> RB> OUR primary instinct is one of survival. We've simply dominated
the
MR> RB> rest of the animal world to such an extent that we have a lot of
MR> RB> leisure time. Time to sell insurance and dream up myths about
gods.
MR>
MR> We also have a need to love and be loved; the knowledge of something
"highe
MR> an us; to think and plan things out; to create things with our hands.....al
MR> ings that animals cannot do.
RB> Some animals may disagree with you.
And if they could have an audible and intelligent conversation with me,
I'd re-think my position
We may have certain abilities
RB> beyond those of other animals. So what?
An ability has absolutely nothing to do with the presence or absence of
a soul.
RB> Should the cheeta worship
RB> a god of speed? Should dolphins worship the sonar god?
The point is that an animal has no concept of a Creator because it has no
soul, thus can't worship anything.
RB> Our
RB> particular 'ability' is our brain.
One's ability has nothing to do with a soul. If it did, Bill Gates would
be god I digress here, sorry
RB> It's the evolutionary development
RB> that ensured our survival.
If you want to swallow that garbage, go ahead.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Antichrist Quiz
|Date: 07 Jan 96 19:25:06
EID:c00b 20279b20
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098a6
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>J.J., where will you be spending eternity? <=-
JH> First John 2:18
JH> Little children, *it* *is* the last time: and as ye have heard that
JH> antichrist shall come, even *now* are there many antichrists;
JH> whereby we know that *it* *is* the last time.
JH> 1) Is the author speaking about:
JH> A [ ] the distant future?
JH> B [x] his day and age?
JH> First John 2:22
JH> Who *is* a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
JH> He *is* antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
JH> 2) Is the author speaking about:
JH> A [ ] the distant future?
JH> B [x] his day and age?
JH> First John 4:3
JH> And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in
JH> the flesh *is* not of God: and this *is* that [spirit] of
JH> antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and
JH> even *now* already *is* it in the world.
JH> 3) Is the author speaking about:
JH> A [ ] the distant future?
JH> B [x] his day and age?
JH> Second John 1:7
JH> For many deceivers *are* entered into the world, who confess not
JH> that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This *is* a deceiver and
JH> an antichrist.
JH> 4) Is the author speaking about:
JH> A [ ] the distant future?
JH> B [x] his day and age?
JH> Now... if you have any additional Bible verses that talk about
JH> antichrist (NOT dragons, NOT beasts, NOT prostitutes, NOT horns,
JH> NOT horsemen), please produce them.
JH> You can start with where you get the notion that "antichrist"
JH> can be used as a proper noun. I don't see it being capitalized
JH> in the above.
JH> You can follow it up with the verse that says the "antichrist"
JH> will be a single individual. Looks to me like it's being used
JH> in the plural above.
First of all, the Greek word is ANTICHRISTOS, meaning an opponent of the
Messiah. Secondly, the word "antichrist" is used only 5 times in the whole
Bible, and these passages are as follows:
I John 2:18,22;4:3 which you have shown and also II John 7, which are still
cited as being in this present age and not Revelationary at all. What is
in Revelation are the beast and Satan.
Hopefully, this is a help to you.
JH> ooOOoo
JH> -!- Msgedsq 2.2e
JH> ! Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
... To the blond:Hurry, dial 911! Blond:OK, what's the number?
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Re: authority
|Date: 07 Jan 96 19:03:28
EID:e68c 20279860
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f0989f
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Sean, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
>> Your problem is that you are acting like a well-trained slave.
>> Best part of it is that you don't even notice the shackles.
>> MR> But child abuse has absolutely nothing to do with subjection and
>> MR> obedience. Sounds like you don't have any children.
> SM> Child abuse has EVERYTHING to do with subjection and obedience!!
> I guess you were never in subjection to your parents. That explains a
> lot....
SM> My parents weren't able to run THEIR OWN lives until well into my
SM> adulthood, Maria.
So you are from a disfunctional family...that explains a lot
SM> Like Steve Quarrella, I wasn't about to let them run mine.
SM> Oh, by the way: You might want to run this little line of yours BY Mr.
SM> Quarrella and see what he has to say about it. In fact, I think I will
SM> do so and save you the trouble.
Sorry...he already did...thank you.
SM> Steve is a well-paid systems programmer with several well-known
SM> software companies.
And that has to do with what? He as well as all of us still have authorities
over us.
> SM> Expect Maria's children to become tax-drains as adults; either as
> SM> convicted felons or government employees.
> No, I don't think so....again obvious you haven't a clue what
> subjection and obedience is...
SM> Yes, I do. It's ABUSE.
Maybe that's what is was in your home...but don't take that to mean it's
the same in everyone else's.
SM> It's abuse when adults do it to each other; it is MOLESTATION when
SM> adults do it to children -- even when sex is not involved.
Do what? Obedience is when a parent says...Johnny clean your room and Johnny
does it. What are you talking about?
SM> Your entire "Divine Family Order" is DISEASED, Maria. And nowadays
SM> enough human beings have experienced better ways of living than that,
SM> that no one who matters buys it any more or ever will again.
You haven't a clue as to what I am talking about. All you have seen is the
life of a disfunctional family and you presume that mine as well as everyone
else who claims Christianity is the same. And you are totally off base here!
SM> Hierarchy of any kind is a degeneration; we humans need to suspend its
SM> use as quickly as possible. We won't survive as a race unless we do.
Spoken like a true socialist.
> and surely you don't have children...
SM> Again, I have more ethics than to breed. Bringing a child into a world
SM> containing your still-in-business deathcult is a FAR worse crime than
SM> murdering it -- killing it AFTER it has been born.
Your ideal of a Christian home is so warped it's unrecognizable
> at least none you don't know about...or support.
SM> Since you cannot defeat me with facts and logic, you resort to
SM> slander.
SM> You have admitted here that I have utterly defeated you; you realize
SM> this, don't you??
In your dreams! Because you have NEVER supplied me with any facts, just
the rantings of your mind.
SM> You see, Maria, I have been in bed with another, sexually, that few
SM> times. I can track the corresponding menstrual periods after each and
SM> every time I have had sex with a woman.
SM> The woman I have been with oftenest had herself surgically altered to
SM> GUARANTEE that she would never have any children -- years before she
SM> ever met me.
SM> And -- for the same reason I refuse to breed, so did she: we both in
SM> our separate times recognized that this was no kind of world to be
SM> inflicting on innocent children.
Who asked for the gory details? So when you grow old...you'll be all alone...your
problem, not mine.
... Where am I going? And, WHY AM I IN THIS HANDBASKET?????
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Bible Follies
|Date: 07 Jan 96 05:38:16
EID:6669 20272cc0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09894
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Marilyn, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
MB> On (03 Jan 96) Maria Russell wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to John Lewis <=-
MB> I think that the majority of us would be far less angry if you
MB> believers weren't trying like hell to insinuate your misguided
MB> beliefs on our children in the public schools,
MR> Marilyn, the last time I checked, it was the "state" who wouldn't
MR> allow anything remotely "religious" any where near schools.
MB> And I didn't say that the religious had succeeded in getting their
^^^^^^^^^
I didn't say you did
MB> damned nonsense into the schools; I simply said they were trying like
MB> hell to. Examples:
MB> The attempts (some successful) to keep all mention of
MB> contraception out of sex ed classes, only allowing talk of
MB> abstinence, as though that will keep my kid from killing himself
MB> with AIDS,
The reason being that the parents don't want the values of others taught
to their children. Sex education needs to be taught based upon the values
of the family the child lives with.
The last time I checked, abstinance is the method that is 100% against AIDS.
If you teach your kid abstinance and he/she LISTENS to you, there won't
be AIDS in your family.
MB> The attempts (some successful) to wheedle prayer into graduation
MB> exercises and sporting events,
If a student wants to thank God for getting them through their high school
years, why can't they? If someone wanted to pray a Hebrew prayer, I sure
wouldn't be offended. If a Muslim wanted to do the same, why shouldn't he?
If your child wanted to thank
you for your help, he could. Why not a "higher power"?
MB> The attempts to gut the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights so
MB> they can turn our schools into prayer meetings and bible classes,
MB> leaving little time for academics,
That's not the case at all. I taught in a Christian school and it was 90%
academics. And our education level far exceeded that of the state level.
In the morning we had Bible study and the rest of the day (total day...8am
to 4pm, btw) was spent in
academia). Your information is flawed.
MB> The attempts to make "scientific creationism" part of the curriculum,
MB> despite it having no empirical evidence to support it.
And evolution has that evidence? Not quite.
MB> And all of this is totally unnecessary. People can teach their
MB> children whatever they want to regarding these matters, and, in the
MB> case of sex ed classes, they can get their children excused from the
MB> ones they object to, rather than denying my child the lifesaving
MB> informtion he needs.
Very true. But most of the time the school doesn't bother informing the
parents that these classes are going to occur and do not bother to inform
them of the content of the curriculm. And that's a fact, because that did
occur at my daughter's school.
... Where's the ANY key?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Bible Follies
|Date: 07 Jan 96 05:52:35
EID:6669 20272e80
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09896
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Marilyn, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
MB> (final message)
MB> Religious Holidays
I appreciate you uploading this post to me. It was quite informative. And
I also concur that there are many religious freedoms here. But I would like
to know the "religious right's" position. Do you happen to have an "unbiased"
post of that?
... Operator, give me the number for 911
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: Bible Follies
|Date: 07 Jan 96 06:34:42
EID:fedd 20273440
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f0989b
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Lynda, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
LB> Marilyn and Maria were killing time yakking about Bible Follies:
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to John Lewis <=-
LB>
MB> I think that the majority of us would be far less angry if you
MB> believers weren't trying like hell to insinuate your misguided
MB> beliefs on our children in the public schools,
MR>
MR> Marilyn, the last time I checked, it was the "state" who wouldn't
MR> allow anything remotely "religious" any where near schools. And
MR> mention of religion in history has been forbidden as a topic of
MR> discussion.
LB> Really? What grade are your kids in? I haven't seen anything
LB> remotely "religious" being banned from my kid's schools -- and
LB> altogether that is, let's see....6 elementary schools and 1 Middle
LB> School, covering 3 states (CA, AZ, and MD) as well as a DODs school
LB> over in Germany. Last month's elementary school holiday program
LB> included religious Christmas carols, a Jewish Hannukah song as well
as
LB> secular pieces. The Middle School's Advanced Band included several
LB> religious selections, including a beautiful canticle for trombone which
LB> my daughter and husband practiced together and played for our church.
My daughter's school would only allow secular Christmas carols..none that
dealt with the Christ child..No "Little Town of Bethlehem" or "Joy to the
World". But I happen to be in NE.
B> And just last year, I accompanied my daughters Social Studies class on
LB> a field trip to D.C. where we made two stops -- one to the Moslem
LB> Cultural Center and the other to the National Cathedral. Since I know
LB> the second will interest you more, I assure you the woman who was our
LB> guide spoke with deep reverence about the religious concepts that went
LB> into the construction of the Cathedral. In BOTH places, the kids were
LB> allowed (and DID) ask theological questions as well those of a more
LB> mundane level.
LB> Sorry, Maria -- no government boogieman stopping the public school
LB> systems I know from acknowledging the existance of religion, either
in
LB> history, or among their student population.
Maybe not in your area...but mine there is.There have been several attempts
in this state to close down the Christian schools by using phoney baloney
insinuations. They constantly harrass the schools with inspections, which
prove to be naught in the end.
MR> And the theory of evolution is taught to our children as
MR> if it were fact (and you know we disagree on that). The schools have
LB> It's taught as theory, Maria, along with the evidence pointing to that
LB> theory. If you disagreed that 1+1 is 2, would you expect the schools
to
LB> say it's 7 in order to appease your views?
In my daughter's school it is taught as fact. They never say "its only a
guess but the best one we have".
MR> also tried becoming our children's parents by talking to our children
MR> about sex without our permission and without our values being
LB> Again, how old are your children? My oldest is in 8th grade (at an age
LB> where sexuality is covered in the Health curriculum) and I've had to
LB> sign a permission slip to allow her to attend those sessions.
Mine is in 7th but NO permission slip came home. And I did ask for a copy
of the curiculum and they hemmed and hawed where the course was over before
they "remembered" to give it to me (though I called them weekly on it).
MR> intergrated. They also have taken it upon themselves to tell them how
MR> they should act socially, in regard to other races and even
MR> homosexuality (I'm not saying their ideas are necessarily wrong in
MR> this, but that we aren't asked to participate and interject our values
LB> Horrors. They set rules that disallow students from being abused by
LB> other students, verbally and physically. How dare they?! Look, unless
Note my last two lines, please!!! I said it isn't necessarily wrong, but
that I would like to interject my own values in social issues with my daughter.
It is my job to be the parent, not the school.
LB> you are there all day everyday to police your own kids, OF COURSE they
LB> have the right to set the rules inside the building where they are
LB> responsible for the safety and well-being of all involved! If it were
LB> YOUR child being villified, you'd darn sure hold the teachers and
LB> principal responsible for it, and I seriously doubt you'd think much
of
LB> the offender's parents saying, "Hey, I didn't get to decide whether
or
LB> not that behaviour is okay!" Come ON, Maria. If your kids come into
my
LB> home, they behave according to my rules, whether yours are looser or
I'm not talking about RULES...I'm talking about values that the schools
set for my children or rather the lack of values that I feel are important
that I should influence my child with but the school negates with their
propaganda.
MR> in any of these discussions). Most of the time, we don't even know
MR> about the social agendas being put forth until the "sessions" are
MR> already in progress or after the fact. So with all this happening, I
LB> It's your responsibility to be aware of any "social agendas" going on
LB> in the school system. Ever hear of the PTA? Ever considered
LB> volunteering in the classroom so you can SEE what's happening?
Yea, let me tell you about the PTA. I joined them this year and NOT once
have I heard from them about a PTA meeting.
... Slander, like coffee, is usually handed to you without grounds.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Re: child birth
|Date: 07 Jan 96 20:40:27
EID:375e 2027a500
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098ac
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Robert, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Maria Russell <=-
MR> No, not at all. It means the pain of labor is from God due to her
MR> disobedience.
DW> Do you think it is just that you are forced to suffer for Eve's
DW> mistake?
DH> It's interesting to see both of you argue from a literalist point of
DH> view. Many people recognize and accept mythology, including biblical
RJ> Literalist Bible-believers get debated from a literalist
RJ> point of view. What better way to show them the fallacy of
RJ> their _ridiculous_ worldview?
But the only problem is that YOU haven't shown any such thing...do you want
to try it again?
... You're it! You're it! You're it! You're it! (Tag line)
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: Christian
|Date: 08 Jan 96 01:32:51
EID:ddbb 20280c00
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098c6
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Lynda, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
LB> Lynda and Jim were killing time yakking about Fido:
LB> You assume much when you assume he can FIND a book store, much less
a
LB> particular section of it, and even less a particular title in said
LB> section.
JS> And this is Lynda Bustilloz who once professed to be a 'christian'.
I
LB> "Once"? Don't be coy, Jim -- I am stating I AM a Christian. If you
LB> wish to say otherwise, have guts enough to say so flat out. And on
LB> this *I* will be the literalist and affirm that the consequences for
LB> you saying so, or even judging in your heart without saying so
LB> regarding it will be greater for you than for me. My belief is between
LB> me and God -- it's not up to your vote.
Would you flatter us with your testimony as to how you got "saved" then?
JS> have since read some of your alleged 'theology' and I guess I
JS> shouldn't even wonder why you demonstrate the same ridicule, lack of
JS> compassion and understanding here as your pagan cohorts...
LB> And that's what it all boils down to, isn't it? You don't like it
LB> that I don't pretend I think you are some really great guy, and for
the
LB> supreme act of showing up your peculiar brand of lunacy, you just
LB> "know" I'm not a Christian. Such humility, Jim, to think that the
LB> deciding factor of one's salvation rests on YOUR personal like or
LB> dislike.
No, I wouldn't say that. But it sure seems you come to the defence of the
"heathens" here and make a special point of tearing Christians down. So
if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....it surely must be a duck!
... Find Jesus. He's not lost...you are!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 07 Jan 96 06:14:12
EID:7a5e 202731c0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09899
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Dan, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-> On 01-02-96 02:06, Maria Russell got back to J.j. Hitt
JH> Good. If you give God everything he wants he'll grow up spoiled.
MR> More like, if He gave you everything, you'd be spoiled.
DC> So, Maria, just what do you get by being an obedient slave
DC> when you die?
The same thing you would get...nothing.
... This message didn't deserve one of my GOOD taglines
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: LARRY SITES
|Sub: Re: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 07 Jan 96 21:06:49
EID:a5d8 2027a8c0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b2
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>LARRY, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
LS> Michael Hardy to Marilyn Burge on 12-30-95 21:58 re: CHRISTOLOGY
LS> It was created to serve a purpose in the day it
LS> was written, not to be an accurate description of a long ago myth.
Would you care to elaborate.....and use some data this time to support your
premise.
... What am I doing wrong? Am I not a Real, True Heathen?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 07 Jan 96 22:10:46
EID:d735 2027b140
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098ba
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Hector, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
AS>>> And in the NT it speaks of us living under Grace, not Law.
MB>> "He's the same yesterday, today, and forever."
MH> And so he is.
HP> Really? :-) Then why do your gods hide now when they supposedly
HP> didn't before? They appear to have gotten more bashful with time.
It's not a matter of "hiding". It's that the theme of the OT was the waiting
for the Messiah. And the NT is the fulfillment of the OT. God was visible
during the OT because there wasn't the written form of the OT. And there
is now.
... TOBG=This oughta be good
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: CHURCHES
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:12:28
EID:0447 20272180
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f0988a
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Lynda, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
LB> Karen and Maria were killing time yakking about CHURCHES:
> None of Paul's letters reflect personal opinions. They constitute the
truth
> that Jesus taught while on earth. None of these epistle go contrary to
the
> rest of the Bible.
KD> Read them for once and see what you think.
MR>
MR> Karen, I read it more than you realize.
LB> Did you read my post showing you that Paul acknowledges at least SOME
LB> of what he wrote as being solely his opinion and not God's?
LB> Your use of the word "none" above was a blatent error, and ignoring
LB> that won't make you less mistaken.
I'm curious at to which verses you think are "opinions".
... Operator, give me the number for 911
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: creation
|Date: 07 Jan 96 22:20:16
EID:67c9 2027b280
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098bb
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Preston, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Christian Miller mumbled "Re: Fundy
PS> Follies!"
PS> Life did not "suddenly" begin, Chuckles.
So you don't go for the "Big Bang" theory?
PS> It was most likely the end
^^^^^^^^^^^
PS> result of a long series of events.
Which started from....What?
PS> Who created God?
He has no beginning, thus no creation.
... TOBG=This oughta be good
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Monty Gibson
|Sub: Re: Cussing
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:02:33
EID:daca 20272040
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09886
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Monty, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
MR> Monty,
MR> It really depends on whose rules you are talking about. If you are t
MR> HOLYSMOKE....there ain't no such animal. This is a flame echo. But i
MR> talking God's rules...then Christian has some serious answering to d
MG>
MG>
MG> That is strange. I understood it to mean that this was a
MG> "religious debate" conference. I will wait and see what other posts
I
MG> recieve. If this is just a brain-less "flame" echo then I will have
MG> wasted my time. Thank you for your response.
There is an echo you might find more to your liking called THE_BIBLE in
Fidonet. I congregate there also. NO flaming allowed. It's mostly Christians
debating dogma.
... Veni, Vidi, Velcro. I came, I saw, I stuck around.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: Way Out Wild!! Where you should be!! (1:141/1299)
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Re: Deborah
|Date: 07 Jan 96 20:50:21
EID:ab3e 2027a640
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098ad
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Gwenny, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
GtP> Heilsa, Christian!
CM> You're the Bible "historian". She did not preach, as far as I know,
but
CM> she did "spread the word".
GtP> Silly fundy. I already know. I'm asking you, since you were the one
GtP> making sexist statements. But, out of pity for your ignorance, I
GtP> would like to point out that she did not "spread the word"...she was
GtP> THE judge of Israel at that time. The big boss. The one who told
GtP> everyone else what god said. Now, go back and look at what started
GtP> this thread. Silly fundies, gotta love 'em. There's no resale value.
Please note in Judges 5 that Deborah judged WITH Barak. Verse 8 shows the
unification of both her and Barak in the endeavor to judge Israel Verse
12 of chapter 5 Deborah is asked to "sing" and Barak to "lead" the people.
There is no mention of her doing
anything authoritative without Barak. Check both chapters for yourself.
... Unregistered Pirated Copy
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: FEMALE CIRCUMCISION,
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:59:57
EID:87b4 20272760
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09890
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Judith, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting Maria Russell to Katherine Wintersnight <=-
MR> find out why this procedure might have been performed? Might it have
MR> been done purely for "medical" reasons?
JB> There is NO medical reason for performing a clitoridectomy on a 5
JB> year-old child. NONE.
Well, that's what I'm wondering. I would think the AMA wouldn't allow such
a procedure to be done in this country for "traditional" reasons. That's
why I'm curious.
... You're it! You're it! You're it! You're it! (Tag line)
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: Female Circumcision, yet
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:18:18
EID:222b 20272240
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f0988b
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Lynda, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
LB> Katherine and Maria were killing time yakking about Female
LB> Circumcision, yet:
RM>JH>No. That may be the motivation by Moslems and Christians
RM>I wasn't aware that it was a Christian practice? Do you have some resource
RM>for this. I do understand it was a Moslem one but didn't know of the
other.
KW> The last recorded clitoridectomy in the USA was in 1948. The girl was
KW> 5 years old.
MR> And in your endeavor to research this topic, did you just happen to
MR> find out why this procedure might have been performed? Might it have
MR> been done purely for "medical" reasons?
LB> Is there NO obscene practice you won't try to defend if it's done in
LB> the name of Christianity??!
You think there's an angle to everything, don't you! I asked you a simple
question! This had absolutely NOTHING to do with Christianity!!! I was wondering
what the reasoning behind this procedure might have been. Could you kindly
get off your high horse
for once and answer a simple question without seeing a "Christian agenda"
behind every corner? If you don't want to answer me civily...then don't!!
But don't be so smug!
LB> Very likely it was done for the same "medical" reason that graham
^^^^^^^^^^^^
But you don't know for sure, do you? How about some facts and figures before
you make presumptions. Could it have been due to a cancerous growth on her
clitoris or a malformation causing the child pain. That was my purpose for
the question!
... Faith, not logic, sustains and gives value to life.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Female Circumcision, yet
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:57:58
EID:e71e 20272720
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f0988f
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Preston, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Maria Russell mumbled "Re: Female
PS> Circumcision, yet"
KW> The last recorded clitoridectomy in the USA was in 1948. The girl was
KW> 5 years old.
MR> And in your endeavor to research this topic, did you just happen to
MR> find out why this procedure might have been performed? Might it have
MR> been done purely for "medical" reasons?
PS> Male circumcisions have a medical basis (though it is a bit weak in
PS> this day of regular bathing). As far as I am aware, there is no medical
PS> basis for female circumcisions (more accurately known as
PS> clitoridectomies). The only possible reason I can think of was that
the
PS> poor girl had gangrene or some other untreatable wound.
My sentiments, too. I wonder if there's any way of checking on this case
in JAMA or something like that?
... File not found, I'll load something *I* think is interesting.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Female Circumcision, yet
|Date: 07 Jan 96 05:55:40
EID:04f8 20272ee0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09897
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>David, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
DW> 02 Jan 96 02:36, Maria Russell wrote to Katherine Wintersnight:
KW>> The last recorded clitoridectomy in the USA was in 1948. The
KW>> girl was 5 years old.
MR> And in your endeavor to research this topic, did you just happen to
MR> find out why this procedure might have been performed? Might it have
MR> been done purely for "medical" reasons?
Please name just *one* medical condition that would require the
removal
DW> of the clitoris, Maria.
That's my question, David?
... By all means, let's not confuse ourselves by the facts.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Re: Female Circumcision, yet
|Date: 07 Jan 96 19:37:42
EID:04c8 20279ca0
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098a7
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>John, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
KW> The last recorded clitoridectomy in the USA was in 1948. The girl was
KW> 5 years old.
JM> It might interest you to know that Allan Rock, the Canadian
JM> Minister responsible for the Justice Dept., has made changes to
JM> the Criminal Code so the ritual practice will soon be illegal
JM> here (if it isn't already part of the legislation that went
JM> into effect yesterday which includes strict gun control).
JM> Ritual female circumcision DOES happen in Canada, and often
JM> enough that they've had to draft specific legislation against
JM> it. In my opinion, of all the disgusting horrors perpetrated on
JM> human beings this one is quite possibly the worst.
I'm curious, John, what "culture" is it that embraces this horrendous "rite"
in Canada?
... (c) 1994 Elmer Fudd. All wights weserwved. Hehehehe.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Former Soviet Union
|Date: 07 Jan 96 19:43:36
EID:81d6 20279d60
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098a8
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Marilyn, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
MB> On (02 Jan 96) Jesse Jones wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> As I said: we are talking about degree, not kind. Do you not
MB> understand what those words mean? You denial only makes Waco,
^^^
MB> Ruby Ridge, and all the rest more likely in the future. Go
MB> ahead; keep your blinders on, and make yourself part of the
MB> problem.
I don't want to be the one who points out your spelling errors....but your
spell checker should be replaced with a grammatic checker.
I only decided to "correct" you since you felt it necessary to correct my
errors...I'm hoping that my point has been made now, and we can get on with
"intelligent" debate?
... RAM DISK is NOT an installation procedure!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Dick Holm
|Sub: Re: Fundamentalist Are In
|Date: 08 Jan 96 00:59:48
EID:c06a 20280760
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098c4
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Dick, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting John Prewett to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
JP> Christ, then you'll see God's Revelation [which reveals the
JP> "Great Whore" and "beast" information] in a whole new light.
DH> Your bias is obvious. Your ignorance of the book of Revelation is
DH> also obvious. There is no question that the "Great Whore" is Rome, or
DH> that the "beast" is the leader in Rome. But there your knowledge
DH> moves from fact to fiction. The Rome of Revelation is not the church
DH> of Rome, but the political entity of Rome, and the leader is not the
DH> pope but the emperor Domitian. If you took care in reading the book
DH> you would know Rev. 1:1. The revelation ... to show ... what must soon
DH> take place. Note the word "soon."
DH> Rev. 1:4. To the seven churches in the province of Asia.
DH> Note - the churches of A.D. 95, not of 1996.
DH> The setting of the book is approximately A.D. 95. The intent is for
DH> that era, not ours.
DH> There are four main ways to interpret Revelation.
DH> 1. It describes the end of history, namely our time.
DH> 2. It describes all of history, from Jesus to the end of time.
DH> 3. It describes any history, without regard to time.
DH> 4. It describes the history of the author's time.
DH> The only logical conclusion is #4.
Dick, are you saying that the book of Revelation is not prophetic? Then
how do you explain chapter 21, which is about the NEW heaven and the NEW
earth?
... Space...the final frontier.Right! You haven't seen my kid's room.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Dick Holm
|Sub: Re: Fundamentalist Are In
|Date: 08 Jan 96 01:03:57
EID:c06a 20280860
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098c5
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Dick, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
LB> I believe that "hell" is a voluntary separation from God's presence,
LB> and as God is Love, such separation will be only those who have
LB> chosen to utterly separate themselves from any idea of loving
LB> others --
JS> Do you have anything from scripture that can even
JS> remotely support this idea (as opposed to the many scriptures that
JS> support the traditional view of Hell)
DH> I disagree to a large extent with Lynda's concept as voluntary
DH> separation. But I believe that hell is an experience to be found
DH> within this life only. A word study of the word 'hell' will show two
DH> basic words - Hades and Gehenna. Hades refers to the place of the
DH> dead. An accurate translation for it would simply be "the grave."
DH> The word Gehenna refers to the valley of Hinnom, the garbage dump of
DH> Jerusalem. To have to survive off the pickings there was indeed a
DH> 'hell of a life.' Jesus describes life lived without being loving,
DH> concerned for others, generous, etc., as this kind of hell. It has
DH> nothing to do with an afterlife. Most of our 'traditional' view of
DH> hell comes from the confusion created by combining these two thoughts
DH> with only one word, and by the superstitions of the middle ages, with
DH> particular reference to Dante's Inferno. It has little to do with
DH> biblical interpretation.
DH> The other major view of a traditional hell comes from the book of
DH> Revelation, but since it is written in code language, and must
DH> first be decoded, the concept of the lake of fire, etc., must also
DH> be reconsidered.
It says in Revelation 20:14 that the "second death" is being cast into the
lake of fire. There's no decoding here.
... By all means, let's not confuse ourselves by the facts.
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Fundamentalist Are Insane
|Date: 07 Jan 96 04:03:54
EID:d64d 20272060
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f09887
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Jim, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
-=> Quoting Maria Russell to Jim Staal <=-
JS> (Mal 3:6 NIV) "I the LORD do not change.
JS> (Mat 24:35 NIV) Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will
JS> never pass away.
JS> The last was spoken by Jesus Himself and is followed directly by Him
JS> restating the story of Noah, one of the most disputed parts of Bible
JS> here. To reject the story of Noah, then, is to reject the words of
JS> Jesus as well, which is tantamount to calling God a liar. You cannot
JS> have it both ways.
MR> Excellent post!
JS> Thankyou. I know of no way to support a 'partially true' Bible. It
JS> either all stands as one (which it does), or falls apart when you
JS> take one part out of it.
I do hope you are a literalist and not an interpretist
... God said it, I believe it, that settles it!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: gospels
|Date: 07 Jan 96 21:00:17
EID:b479 2027a800
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b0
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Andrew, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
AM> Lastly, why are you so ticked off at the Gospels. In this echo I've
AM> never seen so many people bent out of shape over somthing they claim
AM> has no basis in reality. -!-
Kind of boggles the mind, doesn't it?
... One description of the word GREAT: Knowing if you are going to Heaven!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Maria Russell
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Re: imploring
|Date: 07 Jan 96 21:32:30
EID:811e 2027ac00
MSGID: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b5
PID: BWTAG 3.05 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=>Steve, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
SR> Katherine Wintersnight wrote in a message to Maria Russell:
MR>employer. Are you a slave? Isn't your employer the authority over you?
KW>