God Damned Fundies!
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Josh Talbot
|Sub: Abortion Argument
|Date: 14 Jan 96 22:08:00
EID:6f86 202eb100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447B7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Josh Talbot to Michael Hardy <=-
JT> Instead of examining the Constitution or (as in the case of
JT> the cristians) the Bible. Try examining the lifestyles of people who
JT> got pregnent as teens. Or of most single mothers. You'll find that
JT> most of them would have benefitted from an abortion. Don't look at the
JT> fact that the embryos are future humans. Take a look at the hardships
JT> an unwanted baby place on a woman.
Why NOT look at the fact that the embryos are *already* humans, who
simply haven't developed as much as you and me?
All kinds of things place hardships on people. Generally, we don't
advocate killing "inconvenient" people to get ourselves out of a
hard spot.
Unless we're terribly selfish.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: HUCKSTERS
|Date: 14 Jan 96 20:00:00
EID:75ad 202ea000
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447B8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Do you mean the book says that anyone who believes himself to be a
MH> Christian is one? No, it says in several places that it is possible
MH> to deceive yourself into thinking you are when you're not.
ML> So, Mike, just how are you so sure that you're a true Christian
ML> then?
ML> Isn't it, however remotely, possible that you have deceived
ML> yourself somewhere along the line?
Yes. That's why it's important for people who want to be Christians to
examine their beliefs and lifestyles closely in relation to the
teachings of Christ.
... Now, did you have a point to make?
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: abortion argument
|Date: 14 Jan 96 20:36:00
EID:4b5b 202ea480
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447B9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Michael Hardy <=-
RS> I'm sure you and I will agree that the best way to confront this
RS> problem would be to not get pregnant in the first place but that
RS> doesn't happen all of the time. The simple reality of life at the
RS> moment means that abortion should at least be an option.
MH> I agree that prevention is best. However, I think that if a
MH> pregnancy does occur, the woman's rights are superseded by her
MH> obligation to the life she's created. I don't think the unborn's
MH> life should be forfeit simply because his mother made a poor
MH> choice.
RS> What if the mother did not make a poor choice and was raped by
RS> someone? What if she was raped by her father?
Mixed feelings. I sympathize for the woman; on the other hand, I don't
know that justifies taking the innocent life of the unborn.
RS> What if the mother will die if she goes to term? What then?
Then abortion becomes, in my opinion, a legitimate option. Someone is
going to die no matter what.
However, neither of these cases applies to most abortions. Why do
people who are pro-choice consistently trot out the traditional "hard
cases" in an effort to justify abortions had by intelligent, informed
women in their 20s who don't want a baby to slow down the career track?
As a parallel, would it be legitimate for a racist to claim that it
should be OK for whites to shoot blacks at will, and say "What if the
black man was about to kill your wife?" as a defense for it?
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: hello?
|Date: 14 Jan 96 20:40:00
EID:4f5d 202ea500
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> You don't have to accept my apology to you. That's your decision. I
MH> would like to know that you got it though, especially as I've been
MH> having some feed problems of late.
MH> Would you please confirm you received it?
PS> I did receive it, and I replied accepting it. Did it not get through?
It did not; that's not surprising, as I've been having monumental feed
problems lately. I've seen several instances where someone sent a post
to me and I never got it, and only knew about it because I saw someone
else quoting it back to the sender.
I'm glad that you accepted it, though. :)
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Al, the tortured pupp
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:07:00
EID:0204 202ea8e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Al Schroeder <=-
MB>>> Address the issue. Are you a puppet because you can't piss on the
MB>>> moon from Earth, despite wanting to?
HP>> And does he feel "tortured" by that inability? :-)
HP>> Fundy "logic" is so silly...
AS> Remind me not to be near you during the next full moon...
HP> ROFL! That's the best you've got? Come on, Al, address the issue:
HP> Do you or don't you feel tortured by your inability to, say, fly by
HP> flapping your arms?
HP> And did you or did you not claim we'd be "tortured puppets" if we were
HP> unable to do what we wanted?
HP> Now, what was your point again?
Is it just me, or is Hectron's sophistry becoming increasingly
sophomoric?
BTW, I need your address. I have something to send you that I can't
make fit into my computer.
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 14 Jan 96 22:10:00
EID:d99e 202eb140
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> before.) Could it just have been a case of chronic insensitivity, to
AS> say to a atheist who saw his believing father-in-law suffer a
AS> horrible,lingering death? Could he have meant well, no matter how
AS> Shelby took it? Granted that such insensitivity might have been
AS> culpable in itself, but if you saw it, do YOU think he was being
AS> deliberately cruel to Shelby?
LB> He may have meant well -- insensitivity is a good way of putting it.
LB> That's basically what I'm referring to as "casual cruelty". The act
of
LB> not bothering
LB> to see it from the other person's viewpoint. George R.'s comments
LB> were also cruel -- it seems a minimal trait of humanity to be able to
LB> lay aside any debate or dispute long enough to care when someone else
LB> is going through a tough time, and not use that vulnerable period to
LB> try to score a hit on them.
Please take this as a gentle question in light of what you just said.
Did you offer any sympathy to Jim/Lon on his father's serious illness?
(Not saying you didn't, just asking.) I saw several people pounce on
the evidence of their being the same person, but I didn't see anyone
offering him any kind words.
In light of the fact that he's being criticized for being insensitive,
shouldn't his critics be scrupulous to not commit the same offense?
... I am Mother of Borg ... no dessert until your broccoli is assimilated.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Get Serious!
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:26:00
EID:ed5d 202eab40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Glen Zilly <=-
GZ> In a message to Dan Ceppa you stated Saul (who later became
GZ> known as Paul) started Christianity. Here are my comments on your
GZ> claim.
GZ> 1. Do you have any evidence besides your hearsay excuses.
RS>
RS> I just love it when christians fight amongst themselves.
Just to make a slight correction ... Glen is mistaken. Dan is the one
who makes that claim. I do not. See my post to him for more
information.
... Atheist reaching orgasm: "Oh chance! Oh random!!!! Yes!! Yes!!!"
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Linda Whitten
|Sub: lifestyle
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:28:00
EID:70a4 202eab80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Linda Whitten to Kris Okelly <=-
KO> yeah god does love everyone.. but he does not like the lifestyle..
LW> Just a wee bit judgemental aren't we?
LW> Where in your Bible does it say that God doesn't like certain people's
LW> lifestyles?
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God."
Galatians 5:19-21
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality,
impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord,
jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and
envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before,
that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Isaiah 61:8
"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity."
Amos 5:21-24
"I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your
assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain
offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship
offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of
your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let
justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing
stream!"
Zechariah 8:17
"'Do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear
falsely. I hate all this,' declares the LORD."
... and so on.
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: HUCKSTERS
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:37:00
EID:a42e 202eaca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 890447BF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to David Worrell <=-
DW> I knew there was something I didn't like about you... :)
JB> I guess you can't have everything. I just don't find Steve Martin
JB> funny. But then, it takes you a while with puns. Maybe that's
JB> what it is. Martin's humor is like using a sledge hammer. I prefer mine
JB> a bit more subtle.
FWIW, he plays it straight in "Leap of Faith." It's not a comedy.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: JIM Staal
|Sub: Re: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 12 Jan 96 07:42:19
EID:a24e 202c3d40
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f8f31a
-=> Quoting JIM Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> Why in front of you? Are you threatening physical violence against
GR> his person because he stood up and called you a poltroon?
JS> Well, hello, george. No, I am merely making a statement to prove I
JS> _am_ no poltroon.
'Lil fundie,
How does that prove you aren't a poltroon? If he stands up to you it proves
he
isn't a poltroon.
Try Mark 16:15-18. You are either a poltroon or believe Christ is a liar.
george
... Thongs, spandex and halter tops! Oh my!
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 12 Jan 96 07:56:20
EID:3fa0 202c3f00
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f8f31b
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Preston Simpson <=-
GR> Three hundred pounds of flab with a gun, does not a man make.
JS> Interesting...you can conjure up some false impression of me,
'Lil fundie,
Sorry I did no conjuring. You provided a GIF of yourself. You stated that
you weigh 300 pounds. You stated that you always carry a gun for protection
against some Karate Kid.
The only thing I may be guilty of is believing a liar.
And if you are a liar, you aren't in any position to judge me for being
wrong
for believing you.
but
JS> refuse my many invites to breakfast so the awful truth can be known
JS> once and for all...
Why should I accept them? You admit that you have mental problems. You
admit
that you have been on medication for your mental problems. And you admit
that
you have decided you don't need to take your medicine.
My mom didn't raise an Einstein but she didn't raise a fool either.
I'll meet you on my turf at the time of my choosing with Dave Oosterman's
gaurantee that you are not carrying a gun.
george
... Those who vote Republican are either very rich or very stupid.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: DEFINITIONS
|Date: 12 Jan 96 08:06:07
EID:a4f8 202c40c0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f8f31c
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
PS> Are you going to set about improving yourself, or continue making an
PS> ass of yourself?
GR> Preston,
GR> Give the guy some credit, he is good at making an ass out of himself.
JS> And I am to be judged by your personal criteria?
'Lil fundie,
Why yes you are. Not much different than you judging me by your mob criteria.
You don't even know
JS> me,
Sure I do. I know you very well. You were a man without a job, I got you
one,
and you didn't show up. You believe in the Bible when it is convenient.
You
aren't very well read when it comes to the Bible. You have spent a good
chunk
of your life in the bottom of a booze bottle. You have struck your wife.
You
don't know much of anything except how to be a good sheep.
yet you judge me. You don't even have the guts to come to
JS> breakfast. (I'll buy) and yet you judge me. Tsk.
Why should I? You have nothing to offer me and are too ignorant to accept
what
I have to offer.
You have wasted your life. You are just passing time waiting to go to heaven.
george
... Fundies can't think and miss the beauty of the music of life. gr
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: John Oliver
|To: Charles Rollins
|Sub: Homosexian Christuals
|Date: 13 Jan 96 20:49:00
EID:6ea1 202da620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f907b4
Hello Charlie the Tuna,
On 12 Jan 96 10:35 David Worrell wrote to Charles Rollins...
DW> 08 Jan 96 13:04, Charles Rollins wrote to Fredric Rice:
DW> CR> God and us can hate acts but love the person..
DW> Really? Is God going to send the act of homosexuality to hell, or is
he
DW> going to send the homosexual to hell? Is he going to send the act of
DW> murder to hell, or the murderer? The act of stealing, or the thief?
The
DW> act of blasphemy, or the blasphemer?
Like David said your point doesn't make any sense at all. Since
the
inception of Christianity, the "CHURCH" and all the members of
the
Christian faith at the time, worked out what is now handed down to
us,
well, albeit changed!
Now, in the beginning Christianity was considered by all religious groups
at the time including Judaism as a outlawed group of insurrectionists.
Dangerous to the state, until the time of Constantine, and he used it
for
his own political ambitions.
Before he died, he granted to the Christian Church and its highest Bishop,
what is now the pope, the ancient pagan title of Pontifix Maximus. In other
words, Head of the State Religion of Rome.
Now, getting back to the issue of homosexuality. At various times up
to
and after the Reformation of the 15th Century, the Church dealt with
the
issue of Homosexuality by simply ignoring it as unimportant. They
had
bigger fish to fry. The Protestant denominations took up this holier than
thou position in regard to sex, and condemn it more so than the Catholic
or
Eastern Church ever did.
The point is, homosexuality is a contentious point in regards
to
controlling the sexual habits of Christianities adherents, and in truth
has had nothing to do with the Bible whatsoever.
Scripture, condemns sexual licentiousness, not sexual orientation, just
the
indiscriminate use of sex especially in religious practices. Again,
we
come back to Leviticus, and the New Testament. Therefore, how can
God
condemn Homosexuals, when Homosexuality isn't a Sin. To argue otherwise
is
to speak contrary to the New Testament of our Lord.
That Charlette, is Heresy!
Rgds,
/~~~\ John W. Oliver
{ 0 0 } Internet:joliver@turner.lamf.uwindsor.ca
--oOOO--(_)--OOOo-- Fido:john.oliver@f15.n246.z1.fidonet.org
... The Romans referred to Jesus using "ECCE HOMO" not "ECCE HETREO".
~~~ wsOMR/1.00 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: forgiveness available
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:15:34
EID:37ed 202e59e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf2
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> Jim Staal, who wanted to be a miner, but was lousy adit, said to
ML> MARTY LEIPZIG:
ML> Now, which Staal is really receiving this message?
-=> Quoting MARTY LEIPZIG to JIM STAAL <=-
JS> Nah...I was at the local large Schuler's Books tonight
JS> and...heesh...what a bunch of geeks and dweebs! Losers! Especially in
JS> and around the metaphysics section. Guffaw!
ML> I see you added to the biomass.
JS> Huh!?
ML> See?
What!?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:21:59
EID:663b 202e5aa0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf3
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> Jim or Lump? Which Staal for you [J/L]?
'J'. How many lumps for you? One or two...step up here...
-=> Quoting MARTY LEIPZIG to JIM STAAL <=-
JS> why, there are two versions on my monitor. What would you like to
JS> know?
ML> Which is the correct version?
JS> Which ever one works best in a given application...
ML> Even when they're contradictory?
JS> To...?
ML> Each other.
ML> Why would they need two versions if they were exactly the same?
I don't know about 'they', but for me, one is in English I can
understand first time through. The other is fine old English literature
in style, but the meaning is harder to grasp.
ML> Sheesh...this isn't that difficult a thread to follow, Jim. Try
ML> and think for once.
Hey, Marty bud...loosen that collar a bit and lay back, OK? I knew what
you were trying to imply, but I don't see it that way. I don't see them
as contradictory. They say the same thing. One is just a little easier
for Jim Staal to understand. It speaks to me. Before I met the NIV, the
writings of my favorite epistler (Paul) were just a bunch of 'shewest
thou me's. And I'm not Al Bundy. I don't sell women's shoes. Ya know?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Staal shows
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:25:01
EID:dacf 202e5b20
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf4
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> Is this really Jim Stall or just another soy-derived substitute?
Hey, let's get the spelling of my good name correct, OK? 'STAAL'! Never
'Stall'!
ML> Freud was right.
JS> About? Cocaine gives you bizzare sexual ideas? What!?
ML> Something about "slips". Look it up.
JS> Nope...mom said never to look up one of those...
ML> So, you just stay home and watch a little TV instead?
Uh...no. I like concerting. I like Italian cuisine...and Chinese...and
a visit to the Japanese steakhouse. I even like to PARTY!...though I do
not allow myself the privilege...anymore...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:35:18
EID:1d05 202e5c60
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf5
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> Jimbo, is this really you or someone just as ignorant?
I really despise your new 'intro' lines...
ML> Nope. Just as you seem not to have a problem with being a
ML> poltroon.
JS> Poltroon, eh? Stand up and look me in the face when you say that,
JS> MISTER Leipzig! (rent-a-MILKCRATE [TM])
ML> I don't need a milkcrate, Comrade.
So they tried to tell me. I would not believe it. I do not believe it. I
have seen no evidence of it...for _I_ am 6'7", 285lbs of well marbled
Hollander...
ML> Frightening thought, 'eh what?
Nah...you seem more of a man of words...
ML> Even with all your aliases?
JS> Name one that wasn't intentionally obvious? You have been here longer
JS> than I so there was no intent to fool ya...
ML> Not for a picosecond.
'picosecond'???
ML> "Nothing personal"? Well, Jimbo, I think you're deceptive,
ML> self-aggrandizing miscreant of a fundy.
JS> A "miscrean of a fundy"? 'eh?
ML> Nope. It's spelled "miscreant". Get a dictionary, Jimbo.
Nah...just didn't hit the 't'...
JS> Sheesh, I must have really
JS> punched your buttons. Pray tell, what was it that torqued you
JS> off so much?
ML> Squwauk! Jimbo want a cracker?
Cheese, please...
JS> And how/where, pray tell, did I impugn your integrity? Are you saying
JS> you are not a heinous blasphemer
ML> "Heinous": Extremely wicked, atrocious.
ML> "Blasphemer": One who blasphemes; i.e., to speak impiously
ML> of sacred things.
Heinous (adjective, modifying 'blasphemer'. They would go hand in hand.
One could not be a righteous blasphemer now, could one...) blasphemer.
ML> Well, Jimbo; I am not wicked; nor am I atrocious; in fact, my
ML> wordsmithery reflects refinement and exemplary English.
My my...you can wax eloquent if you desire...
ML> Strike 1.
ML> As I think there is nothing sacred, there is nothing to
ML> blaspheme. Indeed, how can one defame that which does not exist?
But I do and there is, therefore you did...in my eyes...
ML> Strike 2.
JS> and brutal abuser of those who
JS> profess God's name?
ML> Indeed, if my dependance upon logic, science and skeptical
ML> examination of evidence can be construed as "abuse"; may the
ML> ranks of such abusers swell.
ML> You may call rational examination and dissection of beliefs
ML> "brutal". Sorry, mate, the truth oftimes is just that.
No, I'm referring to the personal attack on the individual...as
evidenced by your current inflamatory 'intro' lines (as a small example
of the bigger picture...)
ML> Strike 3. You may now bugger off.
Sorry...that is not something one does by himself...
JS> If that is the case, then let's show some evidence
JS> to support that claim. You may start here...with me.
ML> I just did. You accused me falsely and you labeled me unjustly.
I stand by my statements as accuarate, fair and true...but don't let
that impede our obvious progress in our relationship...
ML> But, then again, you're a fundy; and I just consider the source.
Then you know it is a well thought out, just and congenial
representation of yourself in this forum.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:04
EID:c1ca 202e5ca0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf6
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to JIM Staal <=-
-=> Quoting JIM Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
GR>
GR>
GR> Why in front of you? Are you threatening physical violence against
GR> his person because he stood up and called you a poltroon?
JS> Well, hello, george. No, I am merely making a statement to prove I
JS> _am_ no poltroon.
GR>
GR> 'Lil fundie,
GR>
GR> How does that prove you aren't a poltroon? If he stands up to you it
GR> proves he isn't a poltroon.
GR>
GR> Try Mark 16:15-18. You are either a poltroon or believe Christ is a
GR> liar.
And if I stand up to him, it proves _I_ am no poltroon...BTW, poltroon,
breakfast next Saturday? 8:45 A.M.? Wyoming American Legion Hall? I
buy...(along with John Noonan, Jon Vandenberg and Sarge Nagel)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:49:17
EID:8e53 202e5e20
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf7
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Jim Staal <=-
GR> Three hundred pounds of flab with a gun, does not a man make.
JS> Interesting...you can conjure up some false impression of me,
GR> Sorry I did no conjuring. You provided a GIF of yourself. You stated
GR> that you weigh 300 pounds.
Oh yes...but I didn't mention anything about the substance of the
flesh. I prefer 'well marbled Hollander', as I spend much time in the
gym.
GR> You stated that you always carry a gun for protection against
GR> some Karate Kid.
You sir, are a cowardly liar of the greatest degree. Where did I state
I always carry a gun?
GR> The only thing I may be guilty of is believing a liar.
You sir, are the liar. Every time you renounce the existence of God you
profess the lie that your father, Satan, puts in your mouth. (Apologies
to the poor soul who lives on Collinwood)
GR> And if you are a liar, you aren't in any position to judge me for
GR> being wrong for believing you.
GR> Why should I accept them? You admit that you have mental problems.
Evidence? Your demeanor demonstrates your mental problems. Your
hellacious mood swings alone are evidence of dangerous personality
disorders...and those pills you keep on your monitor suggest to the
world that you are not right most of the time you squat at you
keyboard.
GR> My mom didn't raise an Einstein but she didn't raise a fool either.
ROFL!
GR> I'll meet you on my turf at the time of my choosing with Dave
GR> Oosterman's gaurantee that you are not carrying a gun.
Yeah...like Dave is going to listen to your madman ravings again? After
the last time you harrassed him on the phone and went off like the raving
violent lunatic that you are...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: DEFINITIONS
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:58:37
EID:150b 202e5f40
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf8
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Jim Staal <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> Give the guy some credit, he is good at making an ass out of himself.
JS> And I am to be judged by your personal criteria?
GR> Why yes you are. Not much different than you judging me by your mob
GR> criteria.
Not at all. I know nothing of this 'mob criteria'. I do know of your
behaviour, however. That is all judge you on.
GR> Sure I do. I know you very well. You were a man without a job, I got
GR> you one, and you didn't show up.
Didn't ask you to. I didn't need one. You were attempting to soothe
your own soul with a good deed. I didn't comply with your manipulation.
You became angered. (you are easily angered)
GR> You believe in the Bible when it is convenient.
Cover to cover, sir...
GR> You aren't very well read when it comes to the Bible.
I bellieve I have shown that it is you, sir, who have know knowledge of
the Bible as you sit there down on Davis St. amongst your ethnic
compadres...are you in the shadow of St. Adalbert's?
GR> You don't even have the guts to come to
JS> breakfast. (I'll buy) and yet you judge me. Tsk.
GR> Why should I? You have nothing to offer me and are too ignorant to
GR> accept what I have to offer.
Ignorance is not the issue. All I offered was free breakfast and the
opportunity to expand your social horizons...
GR> You have wasted your life. You are just passing time waiting to go
to
GR> heaven.
And you, first aid man, are a waste of a human life, passing
time...never expecting to, but unfortunately will, unless God
intervenes, go to a place of eternal punishment.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 12:01:20
EID:9170 202e6020
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cf9
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Staal <=-
GR> "If your faith is smaller than a mustard seed, ask of my father in
GR> my name and you can move mountains."
GR> But then I've read the Bible.
JS>Obviously not, if you think _that_ is found in the Bible...
KS> ROFL. You ignorant fundy fool, Matt. 17:20
JS> Oh, but I _can_ read, Karl. Compare the actual scripture with george's
JS> doofus 'quote':
KS> Oh bullshit. You are dancing with a strawman. And he is leading.
Yeah...and you, sir, cannot stand being proven wrong again, can you...
JS>I mean, where does it say that the faith has to be 'smaller than a
JS>mustard seed'. Get real, get an education in scripture and _then_ come
JS>back and attempt to ridicule me, ok? Fool, indeed!
KS> Fuck you.
Sorry. Although you probably would enjoy that, (like a firm little
apple, ya know) I am happily married to the lovely Wilbur for over
29 years and doing fine, thankyou.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: coincidence screw up
|Date: 14 Jan 96 12:03:09
EID:d972 202e6060
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cfa
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Staal <=-
JS> demonstrate it publicly? Not too mention grammar and puncuation...
KS> "Not too mention"???
JS> Ah, you caught that, eh?
KS> "puncuation"???
JS> Good job.
KS> Sure, crate, you did that on purpose.
KS> Moron.
You gotta love it, dude... :)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 12:08:21
EID:9170 202e6100
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cfb
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to David Worrell <=-
GR>> "If your faith is smaller than a mustard seed, ask of my
GR>> father in my name and you can move mountains."
DW>I'm starting to think Staal is a troll. Doesn't he ever *read* that
Bible he
DW>thumps?
KS> He was doing 1 of 2 things...making a big fucking production of
KS> a typo or trying to unpaint himself out of the corner.
Typo my eye! George was attempting to show off his marvelous grasp of
scripture and screwed up! That's it. 'Typo' indeed!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 14 Jan 96 12:20:18
EID:21d4 202e6280
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 30f94cfc
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to AL SCHROEDER <=-
LB> There may well be a Mark Staal in the world, but I'm
LB> not entirely convinced that he posts in Holysmoke).
There is. He lives in Wyoming, Michigan, his wife is Karen, he is a
member of Jamstown Christian Reformed Church and he _does_ post in
Holysmoke.
LB> Shelby obviously DOESN'T see
LB> any hope of heaven -- what does telling him his father is in heaven
do
LB> for Shelby? His dad isn't here to read the message.
Uh...father-in-law...
LB> No, I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to be cruel. But it did
LB> show a disregard for what my comfort Shelby, in exchange for saying
LB> what might comfort Lon in the same situation.
What was to be expected! Shelby is cursing God (whom he doesn't
believe exists) and painting Him as the evil figure in the situation.
Lon did right by pointing out that God was in actual fact the
benevolent figure in all of this. What would be more comforting to tell
anyone who's relative/loved one served God all his life, and died in
misery: that the person just wasted all those years and as his reward
he is just rotting in the ground or that the person is now in a better
place, the reward of his life of faith?
LB> One of the things that bothers me most about the Jim/Lon thing is that
LB> if forces me to wonder if either or both really have been facing the
LB> illness of a parent, because Jim professed no knowledge of his OWN post
LB> (Lon's was already being discussed, so he knew about that one) until
it
LB> was brought up...then he said something like "what a coincidence!".
LB> What, did he forget his dad was in the hospital??
Our father (Mark's and myself) is currently in a nursing home...in a
somewhat pitiable state of semi-consciousness. He still realizes pain,
but it is doubtful that is aware of much else. He had another stroke in
the hopital a day before they chipped him out to the home that left him
in this final state. This has been particularly rough on Markie, as he
lived at home with the folks for almost 30 years, prior to his marriage
last year.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Brother Daniel wants you
|Date: 12 Jan 96 17:04:00
EID:4332 202c8880
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936a7
And Brave Sir David ran away, screaming "Brother Daniel wants you"!
DW>> Except Hell...
JB> I didn't think that was a place ON earth.
DW> I take it you've never been to Texas?
There's a Hell, Michigan. Which is kind of redundant, considering
they also have Detroit. :)
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... Don't worry about Fermi, we can survive a nuclear blast - it's Detroit
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 14 Jan 96 09:20:01
EID:9145 202e4a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936a8
And Brave Sir Judith ran away, screaming "FOF"!
MH> doesn't let atheists harass Christians in the religion forums. (Not
JB> Atheists harassing christians on aol? Let's see what you can LOSE your
JB> account for there...using the word 'fundy', saying 'that's nuts' to
JB> some theory such as Prewett spouts here about JFK, asking for
Speaking of Prewett's "theory" - didn't the last pope who was
assassinated get a head wound, too? If so, wouldn't he (or any
other pope who suffered a head wound) be a more likely candidate for
being "the beast"? After all, more people around the world know and
care about popes than they do about American presidents of the past,
and would also be more likely to be impressed/to follow a
resurrected Pope than a returning JFK.
Of course, I suspect a poll of local Catholics (of which there are
many - Ontario in general has about 52% Catholics, (or folks who
attended the Catholic school system, at least) would probably reveal
that they care little about either and would probably think one
insane for asking such a question.
JB> references (even if you just want to look it up for yourself) IOW, the
JB> same stuff that will get you bounced from Steve Winter's echo.
JB> Things that will NOT lose your account...calling someone a 'godless
JB> heathen', 'hell-bound sinner' or 'atheist bastard'. Usually undeserved,
JB> as anyone who would utter something that WOULD deserve such a retort
JB> has already been booted...not JUST out of the forum, but off the
JB> service completely.
I hear something similar has gone/is going down on Compuserve. Any
verification of such a rumour?
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... Never knock on death's door. Ring the doorbell and run. He hates that.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS 1
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:02
EID:3672 202e5ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936a9
>>> Part 1 of 3...
And Brave Sir AL ran away, screaming "ASKING SILLY QUESTION"!
AS> But it's usually a willing act.
SA> Not always. Curses were always a popular thing to blame the change
SA> on. Magic-users, gods, the devil - you name it. Gratned, in the
SA> Middle Ages, deals with the devil were in vogue to some extent, but
SA> one could also piss off the devil enough for some reason to have him
SA> curse you. And early pagan tales usually involved curses by their
SA> respective pantheons - the most famous being Apollo cursing Lycaon
SA> and his company. For a long time, it was believed that the people
SA> of Acadia were ALL cursed because of this, and once every 9 years,
SA> they had to send one of their brethren to swim to an island - during
SA> the swim, the man would be changed to a wolf. If he could refrain
SA> from killing and eating a human over the 9 year span, he could
SA> return as a human. If not, he remained a wolf for the rest of his
SA> life.
AS> When I was young I wrote a short novel or novella called Lycaon,
AS> trying to make THE werewolf novel as Stoker made THE vampire novel
AS> with DRACULA. In it, the title character, was a Greek shipowner and
AS> wealthy, and were THE Lycaon and his sons, not killed by Deucolon's
AS> flood, and willing, even eager in what they did. I had lots of local
AS> color about Greece, which is pretty funny since I've never been there,
AS> culled from travel books. If I had to do it over again, of course, I
AS> would move Lycaon here and do only enough contemporary Greek
AS> background so as not to sounds like an idiot. I did rather like him,
Sounds intresting. Haven't seen the book, but I'll be sure to keep
an eyeball open for it. And I've been to Greece, so the details
might bring back a memory or two. :)
AS> though, despised by Zeus of the red hot lightnings...(BTW, wasn't it
AS> Zeus who transformed him into a wolf?)
Hm. Could have been; I was thinking Apollo probably because of his
association with a wolf-cult (caused out of confusion between the
similarity - in English script - between the words for "light" and
"wolf" in Greek. You might see references to Lycaon Apollo in some
mythology books .. but the usual explanation is that he was only a
god of light, and had little to do with wolves. The confusion comes
in from the words "Light - Leukos " and "Wolf -
Lukos - Lykos . In Greek script, it's a heck of
a lot more clear, at least if you read it properly, and not like
many "scholars" tended to do in the past, imposing English or Latin
pronunciations onto the letters.)
SA> The story about the werewolf who protected and raised a boy whose
SA> name was William, I think, and the rightful heir to a throne
SA> invovled involuntary lycanthropy. So, too, does the story of a
SA> priest who came across a wolf in the forest one day - the wolf
SA> implored the priest to come give last rites to his wife, who was
SA> dying of old age. The priest was frightened, so the wolf pulled
SA> back his skin to show he was really an old man, and explained they
SA> were cursed years ago. The priest acquiesced for whatever reason,
SA> and came to see the wife before she died, and absolved her. (No,
SA> the priest wasn't killed, either. The story just ends with the old
SA> man-wolf thanking the priest, and the priest going on his way.)
AS> Well, he WAS old. Maybe his fangs were loose or missing...
:) Well, the fellow did, by implication, seem awfully religious - at
least religious enough to insist on Last Rites for his mate. One
would be forced to assume that the couple was cursed, and did not
come to lycanthropy willingly. Unfortuantely, the story doesn't
bother to tell how they were cursed, or who cursed them, or why.
SA> The Navajo Indians also had a dichotomy between willing and
SA> unwilling lycanthropes - you could be cursed by a witch, or you
SA> ould willingly become a skinwalker. You also have the phenomenon
SA> of a bite causing lycanthropy, or an inadvertent scratch by the
SA> wolfsbane plant (which is commonly found as an ingredient in potions
SA> meant to cause it willingly.)
AS> Nothing like talking to an expert...
Heh. Though, I worry about myself sometimes, knowing all this.
SA> The Blackfoot tale of the Woman Who Ran With Wolves was sort of
SA> in-between, about a woman who got seperated from her tribe, and
SA> spent several years living with a wolf pack. Finally, the wolves
SA> told her to go home - the elk, they said, would take her there if
SA> she followed the herd. They also warned her that the cervids would
SA> try to make her stay with them. She did wind up staying with the
SA> elk for a while, but then returned to her village, where she wasn't
SA> quite accepted any more because of what had happened (presumably
SA> between her and the male elk) - so, in disgust, she returned to the
SA> wolves - as one. She ran away from the village, howling and
SA> gradually changing form, never to be seen again. (I _think_ it's
SA> Blackfoot, anyway.) Of course, that's not so much of a werewolf
SA> story as it is a statement on how unaccepting humans can be - the
SA> wolves told her to go home because they thought it best for her, not
SA> because they didn't like her company any more - but it does include
SA> the element of shapechanging.
AS>
AS> Reminds me of a lot of feral child stories, actually.
Mm. Though she was older when seperated from her tribe. Most Wild
Child stories have the individual being raised by wolves from a very
early age. Interestingly enough, the documented cases (the most
frequently cited being that of Amala and Kamala) seem to involve
autistic children - who were perhaps abandoned, or wandered away
from home. The case of Amala and Kamala, however, is very, very
ambiguous - the man who adopted (and studied) them, Rev JAL Singh,
probably did not find the girls at all - they were apparently most
likely brought to him. Other children were supposedly found playing
near wolf dens, leading to the assumption (based also on their
behaviour) that the wolves had raised the kids. However, the
explanation most offered is that autistic folk have an attraction to
canines, especially large ones - but you'd know more about that than
I would.
AS> Right. Is there anything in the description in common which
AS> distinguishes it from a normal wolf attack? (Ignoring for a moment it
AS> is abnormal for wolves to attack humans....)
SA>
SA> Only that they were supposed to be extraordinarily vicious, the
SA> animals bigger than your normal European wolf (which, presumably,
SA> the people would have noticed) and the phenomenon of repeated
SA> attacks by apparently the same animals over a period of time. Since
SA> werewolf-belief was still strong at the time, that alone would have
SA> been enough to suggest "werewolf".
AS> Right. I remember these series of stories by Poul Anderson in a world
AS> where magic worked, where the husband was a werewolf and the wife was
AS> a witch. When he changed into a werewolf, it was a BIG wolf, because
AS> conservation of energy/matter still held, so a 200 lb. man became a
AS> 200 lb. WOLF, which is HUGE for a wolf.
It's bloody ENORMOUS. And yes, it is a common belief that size
doesn't necessarily change - which runs concurrent with the belief
in certain parts of Europe that werewolves are distinguished by
having no tail (humans don't have one, after all, and have nothing
which could turn into one from the point of view of European
peasants.) This would be an even more terrifying aspect of
lycanthropy, considering that one of the ways to diagnose the
difference between a dog and wolf is by observing how the tail is
held. Dogs generally hold their tails up, and have a slight to
pronounced curl in them; wolves don't. Without a tail, it would
presumably be difficult for a farmer to make a spot-identification.
SA> Also, I have a reference here which claims the people described the
SA> Beast as being red (not a colour phase of European wolves), covered
SA> in scales, and had a "mouth the size of a lion's." That should tell
SA> one something right there. If the colouration was indeed red,
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS 2
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:03
EID:3732 202e5ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936aa
>>> Part 2 of 3...
SA> however, they couldn't have been European common wolves (Canis lupus
SA> lupus). The scales are an interesting addition, though, aren't
SA> they?
AS>
AS> Oooohhh. A scaled red wolf with a mouth the size of a lion's. Make a
AS> good fantasy or sf creature.
It'd be right up there with the cameleopard, the griffin and the
glatisant.
AS> Hmmm. Hybrids by large dogs? That might explain their lack of fear
AS> for men. They might have even been reared by a solitary man who REALLY
AS> liked his privacy, and when he died, turned to the only way of getting
AS> food they knew...other men.
SA>
SA> It's possible. Attack dogs usually wind up attacking anything that
SA> moves. And hybrids, raised incorrectly, do wind up with an unstable
SA> mix between lack of fear and the hunting instinct.
AS>
AS> Right. It would explain a lot.
That would have gotten me flamed over on alt.wolves, but hey. :)
The problem is usually with the people who raise such animals,
rather than the animal itself; and way back then, dogs weren't much
more than hunting or guard tools, just as pit bulls and whatnot are
treated by scumbags today.
AS> True. But of course, how many of them report SEEING the
AS> transformation? It's odd how universal the were-motif is....humans
AS> changing into animals to prey upon other humans.
SA> I'm sure some would, if only to garner attention for themselves.
SA> Given how story-telling was once highly valued - whether the story
SA> was true or not - if someone could tell a story, and tell it
SA> convincingly, people would listen and perhaps believe themselves.
SA> It's kind of a lost art, now - we have TV to bring us stories
SA> indiscriminately, yet the TV can't listen to OUR stories. And if it
SA> seems hard to believe that anyone would believe something that you
SA> or I would peg as a tall tale, don't forget that people today, in
SA> North America, believe the X-files is true (or based on truth, at
SA> least.) Look how that "BLue Council" thing took off over on I_UFO,
SA> as well. If people are predisposed to believe in something, be it
SA> werewolves, UFOs, miracles, etc, and someone with a knack for
SA> spinning a yarn comes along, they WILL fall for what they hear, and
SA> pass it along themselves - and perhaps even claim that THEY were the
SA> witnesses. And they might even be able to convince themselves it's
SA> true, just by wanting it to be so. I've systematically blocked out
SA> areas of my own memory - it wouldn't be so hard for me to put "false
SA> memories" in the blank spaces. I don't see where it would be
SA> difficult for anyone else to do the same.
AS> Storytelling as a source of Self-Hypnosis, eh? Could be. Or if I
AS> might make a better suggestion...most dreams are rambling things, but
AS> many of us have had a few dreams that are quite explicit and coherent.
AS> If we weren't assured by others around us they didn't happen, we might
AS> believe them as part of our WAKING experience. Many ghost stories are
AS> probably of that origin.
It's possible; especially since if one recounts a ghost story to a
group of people, someone else is bound to chime in with "Yeah, I saw
one, too" and then others will recount any weird experience they may
once have had that seemed ghost-like, convincing the original teller
that his "dream" may have had some substance after all. Same goes
for UFOs. Werewolves and vampires probably aren't that common any
more .. not techie enough for today's society, and seemingly a
product of the dusty past. Ghosts and UFOs are still pretty "hep",
though, judging from current TV shows .. angels, too. I
notice there are shows about those on TLC, no less.
SA> As for the universality of the motif, it's not. In China, they
SA> believe that were-foxes are the reverse of other wereanimals. The
SA> fox, being a magical being, turns into a human (usually female, also
SA> a reverse of the usual wereanimal story, which usually involves
SA> males) to seduce men. They live for 500 years, but can be brought
SA> back to life at the end of it, along the lines of a phoenix. There
SA> are a great many Chinese stories of a man who marries a beautiful
SA> woman, only to find out she's a fox in disguise, using the power of
SA> enchantment to delude the fellow so he doesn't listen to any
SA> warnings of others who might know the truth. Chinese werefoxes
SA> aren't necessarily evil; in many cases, they come across as rather
SA> pathetic, lonely beings who yearn for companionship or simply fall
SA> hopelessly in love with the man in question. Chinese werefoxes
SA> rarely kill their targets - they love them too much to do so. They
SA> might kill anyone who tries to interfere, but that, too, seems to be
SA> rare in the tales. They're very wonderful stories - they'd make a
SA> great animation, even a half-hour one.
AS> Was not aware of that about the Chinese werefoxes. Fascinating.
They are interesting; and they're tragic, romantic figures as well.
Very appealing, though the genre hasn't seem to have caught on
here.
SA> Japanese fox-daemons, however, are another story. They, too, can
SA> take human form, but are always mischevious or even malicious, and
SA> householders seek to protect themselves from foxdaemons, who may
SA> also sometimes act as bothersome house imps, or bring total disaster
SA> on the family. If you're really unfortunate, you can also be
SA> possessed by these beings. Some symptoms of fox-possession include
SA> overeating, talking gibberish (take note, Wallis - the next time you
SA> go on about 'speaking in tongues', I'm going to see about
SA> administering the treatment for foxdaemon possession, which includes
SA> fasting, administering pepper to the eyes, nose, and mouth, a
SA> rubdown with red-hot sticks and holes pierced in the body. People
SA> usually die from this treatment, but hey. At least you won't be
SA> possessed any more.) and worrying about one's face getting longer.
SA> People who keep foxes are believed to be sorcerers, out to do
SA> mischeif on the community.
AS> Considering most foxes' habits of raiding other yards, they may have
AS> a point...
Sure. If the folks in the neighbourhood are raising chickens or
other small livestock, they'd have a basis for worry right there, if
the foxes got away.
SA> In the same vein, going back to the Navajos, they frown on people
SA> who keep coyotes, as the coyote isn't a very positive character in
SA> their mythoi. I've heard of one desert zoo run by these folk, and
SA> they have a sign warning people not to look the captive coyote in
SA> the eye, for fear of getting possessed or harmed in some way. I
SA> heard about this, since it was charged that said coyote was also
SA> treated very badly in this roadside zoo (which aren't known for
SA> having great conditions for even native animals in the first
SA> place.)
AS> Do they have a more negative view of Coyote the Trickster than many
AS> of their surrounding tribes?
They would seem to; Coyote seems to me to be more of a devil in
Navajo tales than a clever helper. Of course, Coyote seems to be a
rather ambiguous fellow in several tribe's mythologies, but the
Navajo seem to emphasis his negative traits more than anyone else.
SA> Going back to universality, the interesting thing is that animal/man
SA> transformations (in whatever direction) are worldwide - even Pacific
SA> Islanders and Australian aborigines had tales of people turning into
SA> kangaroos or dolphins or some such. It's a belief as wide-spread as
SA> god-beliefs - and at least as old. One of the cave paintings in
SA> France is of a half-man, half-deer like creature, and no one's
SA> really sure if it's supposed to depict a shaman in his garb, or an
SA> actual wereanimal of some sort. I think it's probably a mixture of
SA> both. They may have believed the shaman really became that animal
SA> when he put his stuff on, just as some Kwakiutl, Crow, and Blackfoot
SA> tales describe men turning to wolves or other animals by donning
SA> masks and dancing around a fire. I've come across reference, too,
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS 3
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:04
EID:f7f3 202e5ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936ab
>>> Part 3 of 3...
SA> to early Babylonian beliefs in werewolves created by sorcerers, but
SA> I'm not sure how reliable said references are. It seems to be part
SA> and parcel of some sort of very uncommon semi-New-Ageish belief
SA> system that claims pedigree back to said sorcerers. (Toronto's
SA> quite the place. You can find any manner of weirdness there if you
SA> look hard enough.) The thing is, folks who did participate in
SA> mask-ceremonies themselves believed they became the animal they were
SA> impersonating - which is why the ritual "worked" for whatever
SA> purpose it was meant for. All the participants truly believed in
SA> shapechanging, just as much as participants in church all believe in
SA> their communion with their god.
AS> Which has to do with the three laws of Magic anthropologists have
AS> discovered which is in common behind the belief systems of most
AS> magical systems...in this case that the quality of something (such as
AS> a wolfskin) is still linked to the original even after it is parted,
AS> or that something similar to the thing trying to be focused on is
AS> linked with the original (like a voodoo doll).
Sympathetic Magic. Very common and widespread amongst animists and
whatnot .. it's probably the earliest form of magic/religion there
is. And, it's echoes persist - who hasn't accused someone of making
it rain because they washed their car or watered their lawn? :)
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... "It's MR. Banana Beak to you, Fuzzy!" - Zazu
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: 2 ASKING SILLY QUESTION
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:37:05
EID:1b39 202e5ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936ac
And Brave Sir AL ran away, screaming "2 ASKING SILLY QUESTION"!
AS> If there had been as good a documentation and attestation...say,
AS> twelve people seeing a werewolf change from wolf to man AT THE SAME
AS> TIME, and then willing to undergo prersecution and/or death for that
AS> belief....then it would be comparable. But surely, there is a
AS> difference between twenty thousand seperate sightings of werewolves,
AS> ghosts, or for that matter, UFOs in isolated settings (although there
AS> were villages who thought whole other villages were werewolfs---but
AS> they don't claim to have SEEN them all change AT THE SAME TIME) and
AS> seeing an impossible thing, all together, with each other to back you
AS> up, for the single incident. (Like Jesus appearing to the disciples
in
AS> a group, the same time He invited Thomas to feel the wounds.)
I don't see what the difference is, especially when one considers
tribal ceremonies. In those, you have an entire tribe (or at least
all the men in the tribe) gathered, and all would agree that the
masked dancers (including the dancers themselves) transformed into
whatever they were trying to imitate. They certainly would have
claimed to SEE it, all at the same time - and likely more than once.
As for being persecuted, well, tribes were persecuted in general by
European immigrants, though mainly for being "pagan" than any
individual practices they may have had. And those CLAIMING to be
werewolves in Europe, of course, were definitely persecuted and
killed (or, later, sent to places like Bedlam.) Nowadays, anyone
claiming to see or be one would of course be sent to the Happy Home
- even if they were part of a group who claimed to see it.
As for UFO sightings, I recall a news story which came over the
wires years ago about a Russian town that claimed to be witness to
not only a sighting, but a murder. Hundreds claimed that a UFO
hovered overhead and zapped some teenager into ash for no apparent
reason.
If anything, however, repeated sightings by hundreds or thousands or
millions of people over millenia of such creatures, world-wide, is a
lot more substantial as far as it goes than a mere 12 people who
once claimed to see what we might call a zombie 2,000 years ago.
Or, rather, a claim that 12 people saw the thing. I'm not sure at
all why I should take the word of actually _4_ people on the event
(since, of course, there are only 4 gospels, written by supposedly
eyewitnesses .. the other 8 don't seem to speak for themselves) over
50 or 100 Kwakiutl braves on what happens when dancers don masks and
dance about a fire every year or so. Of course, the question arises
- what the hell did they use as combustables in those fires? :)
SA> in the ressurection has been around for 2,000 years - belief in
SA> shapeshifting may have been around for as much as 35,000 years, if
SA> the cave painting is to be taken at face value. Surely someone
SA> along the course of that time would have noticed that people don't
SA> change into animals (or vice-versa) - unless enough people also
SA> claimed to witness or actually do it, or participated in ceremonies
SA> that compelled them to believe in it wholeheartedly. As for the
SA> current believers in lycanthropy in modern cities, I don't know why
SA> they believe any more than any Christian still believes in men
SA> resurrecting, but the two beliefs seem to be related quite closely
SA> in form, if not content. And people in wilder parts of eastern and
SA> central Europe still believe - so do probably Chinese peasants,
SA> African tribesmen, and who knows who else. South Americans still
SA> probably hold onto fears of jaguar-men as well.
AS> I feared jaguar-WOMEN when I was dating. I am NOT a fan of long nails
AS> on women. Can get quite painful at times.
:)
SA> It might all come down to wanting such to be true - it would be kind
SA> of neat to be able to change your form once in a while, at least to
SA> run around, if not to kill (though for some, that might be a
SA> tempting bit of it, too.) And people want eternal life, either
SA> physically or spiritually. Jesus is sort of a symbol of hope for
SA> the latter, where the wereanimal represents power, freedom, and
SA> perhaps immortality as well in some cases. A weak person can take
SA> comfort in the idea that he can become not only physically strong
SA> but also feared if he takes on the form of a wild animal; a person
AS> Oh, so THIS is the first part of the post. Some hundred posts in the
AS> packet later. Fido strikes again!
I don't think so; they seem to have come in order from what I
remember. But I decided to take a break in doing mail for a couple
of weeks, and it's been a while. I just HAD to go back and deal
with this stuff before getting seriously back into doing mail,
though. :) Anyway, that's why I didn't delete much; sorry about the
size, but I figured it'd be best to keep as much quoting as
possible, since my treatise was rather long and involved.
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... "That's no dickhead - that's Ned Kelly!"
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: DOOFUS...
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:52:06
EID:0aaf 202e5e80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936ad
And Brave Sir AL ran away, screaming "DOOFUS..."!
AS> Hmmm. The Nashville one has quite a number of them. Luckily.
SA> The 2nd hand bookshop has an interesting used sci-fi/fantasy
SA> section .. usually you can get stuff for spare change. The only
SA> drawback is, none of the books are in any sort of order, so you have
SA> to spend about an hour hunting out something that strikes your
SA> fancy. I've lucked out a couple of times, but more often than not,
SA> you wind up spending far too much time in the place. :)
AS> Mine is the opposite. Used books are at a PREMIUM about sf/fantasy,
AS> being little less than the new stuff. Lots of colleges and
AS> universities here, so there are a lot of imaginative youngers...i.e.,
AS> sf buffs.
Well, the BookMark (the second-hand place) has about the biggest sf
section I've seen in the city. We don't even have a place that has
a decent selection of RPG materials, either - the closest would be
the Sci-Fi Shop (which doesn't generally sell books - they mostly
sell movie and Star Trek paraphenalia), and there you have to ORDER
stuff .. if you don't mind waiting a few months. There are
apparently places in/around Detroit where such can be had, but
that's sort of a pain, too. Who wants to go to Detroit? :P
SA> My friend heard of it, and didn't really like it - said it was too
SA> clunky or some such. I suppose if it was done 'way back in 1980,
SA> though, it can't really be faulted for that. It sounds like it was
SA> a very early attempt at role-playing systems or some such.
AS> It was the first sf game (as opposed to fantasy) in RPG that I know
AS> of.
Hm. The first one I ever heard of was a Star Trek RPG back in '82
or so. Though my memory of the date might be off a year or two.
SA> As for New York, yeah, that would be quite the challenge. Did he
SA> have a problem with getting bored easily? :)
AS> Definitely. Looked just like Weird Al Yankowitz, too....
Oh, scary. :)
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... "Lord, thy one-liners are as good as your tricks!" - Rowan Atkinson
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: STEVEN-A LESSON IN HOMOPH
|Date: 14 Jan 96 11:56:07
EID:5a75 202e5f00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 30f936ae
And Brave Sir AL ran away, screaming "STEVEN-A LESSON IN HOMOPH"!
AS> And don't have ten thousand toys given to their brothers, too. It's
AS> hard to know where to put the toys after Christmas. We often send the
AS> extras to charities...
SA> Hehehehe. Yeah, things can get kind of crowded after a Christmas
SA> binge or two ..
AS> I'd like to tell you we didn't go overboard this year, but I nearly
AS> tripped twice over a toy today...
:) Hehehehehe.
AS> The royalties ought to make him happy. Trust me.
SA>
SA> If not, he can always send them to me. :)
AS>
AS> Don Rickles wouldn't send his royalties to Mother Teresa.
No, I suppose not. :)
AS> There's a Disney store in a nearby mall. Wonderful place to visit
AS> with the kids. But looking at the prices...wouldn't want to buy
AS> there.
SA> Yeah, I know. I remember the prices for stuff at Disney World (we
SA> kids - my cousin and I - had to buy souvenirs with our own money).
SA> I've never been in a Disney Store - there are none in Windsor, and
SA> one only opened up in Toronto after I moved the hell away from there
SA> - but I can just imagine the price-gouging.
AS> But they're so CUTE!! The kids love to walk by the windows, with
AS> Mickey, Goofy, and Donald all slowly acting out motions and then
AS> starting again, over and over and over...
Sort of like an old Hudson's Christmas window display, eh? Well,
just remember, the cuteness is the hook and your money the fish. :)
SA> Oh, I saw clips of "The HunchBack of Notre Dame" the other day - it
SA> looks rather interesting so far. The hunchback is appropriately
SA> ugly, at least. Boy, is he ugly. Even the Beast had a quality of
SA> animal handsomeness about him, physically, but ol' Quasimodo there -
SA> yikes. He looks like his hobby for the past 30 years has been
SA> chasing parked 18-wheelers. But then, Quasimodo is supposed to be
SA> handsome on the INSIDE, whereas the Beast had a horrible
SA> temprament.
AS> What is it about French stories of pretty women and horrible looking
AS> men?
Because French men are generally 'orrible looking?
--Wolfie
"Immortality isn't about living forever - it's about making the
most of the time ye do have."
--Hudson
... "My head feels like a Frenchman's living in it .." - Blackadder II
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Consider...
|Date: 14 Jan 96 10:48:53
EID:675a 202e5600
MSGID: 1:128/203.0 30f96b39
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 604f17f8
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Linterah caught J.J. Cat Herding!
JH>> [Piano player stops playing, a hush falls over the saloon]
JH>> "Are yew sayin' I ain't a True HolySmoker?"
LW> If'n he is, he's dead wrong! I enjoy your provocative
LW> posts!
JH> He was genuinely puzzled (baffled would be an even better word) by
JH> the proliferation of supposedly "non-religious" topics in this echo
JH> (comics, old movies, anthropology, literature, cooking, radio,
JH> railroading, Cleveland, etc).
It does often seems that way on occasion, but what the hey!
JH> The reason why I fit in with this echo and in almost no other
JH> "topic dominated" echo is I can't talk about ANY of those subjects
JH> and not have religious topics eventually work their way into the
JH> dialog.
I know. This is _ideal_ topic area for you! Besides, like I said, I
enjoy your posts.
... I'm locked inside a chocolate factory. DON'T send help!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: A-viking on the cyber sea (1:128/203)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: It only hurts when I Spong.
|Date: 14 Jan 96 13:14:25
EID:deef 202e69c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 f64b560c
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 60826fe4
On (14 Jan 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to AL SCHROEDER...
JH> But we know of at least one very obvious example of a fusion
JH> between the tribal ethno-centric religion of the Jews and the
JH> more cosmopolitan world outlook of the Greeks and Romans.
JH> It's called Christianity.
JH> And in modern times we have the observance of Hanukkah. The
JH> history of it's observance as a major holiday happens to
JH> coincide with the time when Dickens and the retailers made
JH> Christmas into a Mighty Big Deal. Also, you will find it
JH> being either a minor observance or not observed at all in
JH> those parts of the world where the Eastern Orthodox callendar
JH> is used and Christmas is celebrated somewhat later in the
JH> year.
It's also problematic whether Jews are currently practicing
Judaism or not. How many in this country now keep kosher? That's
just one example. The Jews in this country, for the most part,
have pretty thoroughly assimilated. And those that haven't are
generally thought of as lunatic fringe. Living in the "melting
pot" we call "American" tends to do that to cultures. There are
probably more traditional, kosher-keeping Jews in Israel than in
anyplace else in the world, and even there, I'm not sure they are
in the majority.
... Hell hath no fury like the lawyer of a woman scorned...
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ARK
|Date: 14 Jan 96 13:21:12
EID:5acb 202e6aa0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 ca1bb8a2
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 60838f54
On (14 Jan 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Preston Simpson...
JH> JH>> service record to the public. BUT, the tale I heard
JH> JH>> recently claimed that he was in command of a submarine in
JH> JH>> WWI (did we even have subs
PS> I heard that he was aboard a destroyer during WWII.
JH> That concurs with the biographical notes about him in the
JH> back of Dianetics. For some reason I thought Hubbub was older
JH> than that. I thought Crowley had made a few references to him
JH> (Maybe Luke Clark has these handy), which would tend to make
JH> him older than the average WWII soldier's age of 25.
That was an average. If I remember correctly, they werr drafting
up to the age of 40.
... Creationist: "Why yes. Rome _was_ built in a day."
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Aryan National Front
|Date: 08 Jan 96 13:31:53
EID:e666 20286be0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e701
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 030c86f0
rj> If you ever get a chance to chat up one of Bill Riccio's boys
rj> (the leader of the Birmingham, AL-based Aryan National Front),
FR> I wonder if they class as either Pagani or Wicca. I'm sure to most
I'm pretty sure they're not Wiccan.
FR> people they do. As for 'chatting up' one of these clowns, only
FR> at a distance, man. I have a zero shit tolerance policy for racial
FR> bigotry and sex bigotry -- they're a couple of my bugaboos. I saw
FR> enough of these types in the Air Force -- 'course they weren't
FR> worshipping Odin. }:-}
Y'just sort of clap your hand over your face after a minute
and say, "Uh, yeah. Well look, izzat the time? I've gotta
get going now..."
rj> little fucking annoyances set my bloodpressure into the strato-
rj> sphere...
FR> Cut down on your salt intake. }:-}
If I could cut down on my "petty annoyances" intake, that would
be even better.
rj> Specifically, the ones that believe in
rj> the benevolence of Nature. LIE!
FR> I've never heard a Pagan or Wiccan make that claim, though.
Perhaps it's more common among SewAgers.
... Oxymoron: Microsoft Works.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: What would Miss Rand say???
|Date: 08 Jan 96 13:38:45
EID:32ff 20286cc0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e702
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 030c86f3
LW> He's not dead, but He died for you!
FR> Neat! "George Orwell" would be SO proud!
It's fascinating, in a morbid sort of way, to watch someone
whose mind is so fucked up they will contradict themselves
within six words because they can't think in chunks of time
and information that large. The added fact that the words
are spelled out on his screen only makes matters worse. I
honestly don't know how they even turn their machines on.
... fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Sexist Asshole for Christ
|Date: 08 Jan 96 13:43:16
EID:b3eb 20286d60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e703
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0311e0f6
DR> Well it's a known =FACT= that men are evil, vile creatures
DR> compared to women. I have the statistics to prove it. Look
DR> at the ratio of violent crimes commited by women and men.
rj> I guess you favor bigotry against blacks as well, since the
rj> statistics on violent crime don't do them many favors in
rj> the PR department either?
FR> Have you been watching the National Organization of Women and the
FR> problem that, oh, what's her name... Marilyn Kagan? caused when NOW
FR> tried to make woman battering a _racial_ problem based specifically
FR> upon these statistics?
I wonder why they would try to splinter the problem.
FR> NOW is making woman battering a racial problem -- a black problem --
FR> and Kagan made some comment about not having the time for blacks who
FR> would do that, saying that woman beating knows no racial boundaries.
Eh? Was she suggesting _not_ turning it into a racial problem,
or just not considering such cases?
FR> Also, I have to wonder if you honestly think stateing facts such as
FR> there being more Christians in prison than atheists is itself a
FR> bigotry. Are you willing to defend that position?
Not sure. How do you mean? Stating the facts isn't bigotry.
Making the prejudgment is.
... Fickt nicht mit dem Raketenmensch!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Received Threat / FBI
|Date: 08 Jan 96 13:48:22
EID:66c3 20286e00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e704
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0311e0f7
FR> That fact? That the United States engages in unjustified acts of war
FR> waged against innocent people -- usually farmers and peasents
FR> conscripted into service to fight the US by their despot leaders.
see below.
FR> I can't justify the slaughter of over 200,000 Iraqis just because
FR> their military leadership are tin-pot tyrants. Can you?
rj> That's more than half the reason things were so fucked-up
rj> socially in this country 25 years ago--that attitude.
FR> You couln't possibly be more wrong. The glorification of war started
FR> to come to an end some 35 years ago. Nationalism was no longer a
FR> justification for fighting in foreign lands for vague, ill-defined
FR> rhetoric of "saving democracy."
What I mean about the social problem is that the anti-war
crowd used to harass soldiers and spit on them because they
went to Nam. Just like the despots who send their peasant
farmers to fight for them (don't think_they_ haven't been
filled with a bunch of jingoistic crap, either), I don't
think the draftees felt they had much choice about going.
Rather than just confining the harassment to the decision-
makers in that quagmire, the anti-war element, caught up in
their own jingoism, just wanted to attack _anything_ they saw
as a symbol of that war.
FR> capable of selling their agenda to the American public. Rather than
FR> telling the American public that they're "fighting Saddam" to
FR> "reinstall democracy in Kuwaite," they'll have to admit they did it
FR> for cheap oil.
Of course. However, It sounded a lot like David used some words
that were deliberately offensive to a lot of people--not just a
cluster of armchair commandos with hawkish hardons. I just don't
see where _he_ thought the flame on him was so unjustified.
FR> Now I ___SUPPORT___ "human rights actions" in places like Bosnia
FR> except that I would rather like our government to clearly define their
FR> role.
Agreed. Actions without objectives are stupid; of course you
would _think_ our govt would learn that, but then that's also
why people keep re-electing them--because *voters* never learn.
They'll let the GOP plunge the social fabric into the shitter
again, and we'll have another Great Society to follow it.
... The Ronco Occamatic: slices and dices gods--it even juliennes beliefs
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christmas
|Date: 08 Jan 96 14:01:41
EID:b721 20287020
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e705
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a603
rj> Jesse makes me think more and more that William Kunstler
rj> really didn't die, and he's just hiding out in Florida under
rj> an assumed name.
FR>
FR> Yeah? Forgive my ignorance; I don't know how William Kunstler was.
He was the lawyer who defended the Chicago 7, the World Trade
Center bombers, and a host of every violent far-left radical
fringe group or activist since the '60s. He wouldn't defend
any rightwingers--only lefties.
But mainly what I know of him is that he didn't always win his
cases. Those he lost he attributed to "corrupt legal system,
blah blah blah", "racial bigotry blah blah blah", etc. He
would deny such-and-such a court's legitimacy and right to
exist--I think that was the blamegame he pulled at the Chicago 7
trial. Things like that remind me of Jesse's willingness to
start the shit with asinine statements, then he asks for defi-
nitions, and when you give him an argument he has to think about,
he just "refuses to dignify it" and skulks off.
... Excuse me, I gotta go kill a Care Bear.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ATHIEST AGAINST ABORTION
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:01:21
EID:125f 20288020
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e707
MH> Try searching in the Constitution for a reference that specifically
MH> guarantees the right to abortion.
JB> The case was decided under the right to privacy that the Constitution
JB> DOES guarantee, and the premise that what a woman and her doctor
JB> decide is covered under that right of privacy.
I guess that would be under my fave: #4.
... and the dog walks up to the tree...a-a-and...he...PIDDLES ON IT!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Received Threat / FBI
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:21:47
EID:66c3 202882a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e708
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e7f
FR> I hate to see people die on _all_ sides (unless it's Christians
FR> murdering Christians and they don't drag their children into it, of
FR> course. I can think of no better way to _save_ lives by keeping
FR> warring Christanic fractions from unification.)
The problem is, they lust to send their children off to
slaughter. It makes them feel "godlike".
FR> The best way to save lives is to make war painful. For the United
I think Oscar Wilde said it best. The way to make war unpopular
is to make it unfashionable.
... If I have any belief, it is that faith is a dangerous thing. --RBJ
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: A Visit 4/4
|Date: 08 Jan 96 20:47:22
EID:814e 2028a5e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e709
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e86
JT>> S & M and B & D
JT>> Married, Will Cheat
JT>> Sex Toys
lc>> How christian.
FR> And note the fact that they're _local_ forums? They're not
FR> FidoNet forums, at any rate. "Christian Miller" would
FR> appear to be a heathen out trolling.
jjh> I saw nothing to indicate he is a "heathen" or White Punk On Dope
jjh> Pagan. The impression I got is that he is exactly what he appears
jjh> to be: someone who is a believer due to societal or family
jjh> expectations and is somewhat less than comfortable with his
jjh> religion.
FR> It's the message areas on his/her board that make me wonder. If
FR> he/she is really the rabid fundy that we see here on HolySmoke, I
FR> wouldn't expect his/her BBS to have those forums.
What I find unusual is that, in the two years I've been on
this echo, and of all the fundies whose BBSs anyone should
choose to call on a whim, why it would be the fundy with a
list of sexchat groups.
Of course, any accusation that JJ would've made the whole thing
up was instantly nullified by Miller's immediate admission and
subsequent backpedaling.
... Religious error: (A)tone (R)epent (I)mmolate?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Rice's obvious better education
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:34:01
EID:9f82 20288440
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70a
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8a
fl> Actually, my all time favorite philosopher is
fl> Neitzsche! His book: "The Antichrist" is a classic!
FR> I've got several of compilations of his work. I don't like them
FR> because it seems he has a religious following who have deified him and
FR> made his work scripture. Hell, one of the books I have even numbers
FR> the sentences.
Actual sentences, or paragraphs? Sounds like the section of
maxims in "Beyond Good And Evil". Funny you should mention
his followers and scripture, seeing as how even Nietzsche
himself admitted his arguments weren't based on logical analysis,
but that he preferred a more emotional, aphoristic style to
persuade his reader.
He had some good observations and even a few good conclusions,
but what's interesting is that all the Nazi propaganda that
was supposedly engendered by his philosophy had nothing to do
with Nietzsche at all. Nietzsche was very much opposed to
anti-Semitism--it was actually his sister who "edited" his papers
after he was either dead or incapacitated, because she and her
husband were strongly anti-Semitic. And 'twas she who passed
it all along to the Nazis.
Nietzsche would've taken a cursory glance at the Nazi Party
and pronounced them Untermenschen. Pure slave morality, under
the guise of a master race.
... fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Life in the Twilight Zone
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:41:09
EID:bb02 20288520
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70b
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8b
fl> "I call christianity the one great curse, the one enormous and innermost
fl> perversion, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are
fl> too venomous, too underhand, too underground and too petty- I call it
fl> the one immortal blemish of mankind." -Nietzsche
FR> Perhaps he didn't encounter fundy Muslims. I would count _all_
FR> so-called "monotheistic" religions as great diseases upon humanity.
FR> And of course he never met a $cientologist.
"B-but...we're not a religion! We're a TECHNOLOGY!" 8-P
... Anananany: The inability to stop spelling 'banana' once you've started
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Helping fundies
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:47:08
EID:343a 202885e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70c
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8c
fl> Good point! Also, there is always the odd chance that one
fl> or two of these fundies will actually "see the light" of day,
fl> and come to our side. Yes, I know... Slight chance, but...
FR> Do you think there's really any chance of helping anyone?
fl> Well, Styx tells me that a few fundies here on HS have seen the light.
FR> I don't know about that. I do know that ex-fundies find their reasons
FR> for walking away justified in the postings of current fundies in this
FR> forum.
I think I've seen two believers give testimony in my stay
here. One rejected God altogether and the other had his belief
seriously crippled. I know that before 'Smoke, I would've been
fairly comfortable with deism or pantheism, but it's quite
apparent now that even that formality is entirely unnecessary.
... "Dear Diary: My teen angst has a body count."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cops Take Fred Rice Down! Twice!
|Date: 08 Jan 96 16:53:53
EID:53a4 202886a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70d
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8d
FR> It was the knife which drew the most concern. The NRA stickers showed
FR> that I at least kept abrest of the laws and, most probably, the safety
FR> aspects of firearms (I get safety coursed every other year to remain
What's this new woman who's heading the NRA like? Is there
going to be a change from Wayne "Jackbooted Thugs" LaPierre,
or more of the same: going way into the red to buy influence
on the Hill, and alienating a lot of real gunowners?
FR> Perhaps the fear of lunatics willing to slice someone with a knife is
FR> greater than a lunatic with a gun. Someone who's willing to step in
FR> close with a knife and slice someone has _got_ to be a special crazy
FR> over and above a coward with a gun standing across the street or
FR> diving by in a speeding car.
And I understand people freak out worse over a crazy with a
straightrazor. Tricky things, but someone'll figure anyone
crazy enough to brandish one of those probably knows how to
use it--and draw a gallon of blood in the process.
... "I'll be with you in a moment, I'm just sealing some fates."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Look at this one
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:03:55
EID:808b 20288860
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70e
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e8e
FR> My money is on him/her being a troll. The BBS he/she runs has sex
FR> talk forums on it, after all. That doesn't seem consistant with the
FR> rabid fundy image he/she is trying to depict.
Neither were Swaggart and Bakker.
... I think the phrase rhymes with 'clucking bell'.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: I,m still here
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:21:49
EID:96bf 20288aa0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e70f
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147ea7
FR> By the way: Do you think you might be able to make it to a HolySmoke
FR> convention sometime this August if it's held somewhere hear Dallas?
That sounds like a plan. Not in competition w/DFest, though?
... If I have any belief, it is that faith is a dangerous thing. --RBJ
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christian criminals
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:26:56
EID:1abb 20288b40
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e710
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147eac
sq> Now, if you want to say "MOST Fundamentalist Christians,"
sq> I would probably be inclined to go along with that.
FR> I would rather continue to play the extremist. I agree with you,
FR> though, but this _is_ HolySmoke. Don't tell anyone I don't
FR> actually believe the extreme end of the spectrum that I pretend to.
I
Why say things you don't mean?
... "Bother," said Pooh as he dropped another rock in his crackpipe.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Satanist
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:48:37
EID:4ec1 20288e00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e711
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a5e6
> and if you are some white-lighter who wants to try to stomp my
> religion, all i can say is, COME GET SOME.
FR>
FR> Well, LaVey didn't include any deities in his rantings. My guess is
FR> you're religion is safe here but that you are probably an endangered
FR> species... cyberlly speaking, of course. No "Satanist" seems willing
FR> to stay here for long when he finds 'Smokers don't care about him.
I dunno--you might enjoy boxing with this nimrod.
... Support the coyote habitat..abandon cats in the country.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: news? on a honeymoon
|Date: 08 Jan 96 17:57:41
EID:5146 20288f20
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30f1e712
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a601
FR> During Winter Solstice on the 22'nd our family researched parallax and
FR> read from the holy Griffith Observatory magazine. And we
rj> Have I ever told you about how I celebrate the 27th of October?
rj> Battle of Hastings Day, where I drink like a Norman and wake
rj> up feeling like a Saxon the next day. The drink of choice is
rj> mugs of weissbier spiked with generous shots of apple brandy,
rj> to sort of symbolize the Norman invasion of the Saxon culture.
FR>
FR> That sounds, er, um, fun. }:-}
It is. All I need are some like-minded people with a genuine
interest in history to drink till we puke.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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