God Damned Fundies!

|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To:   DAN CEPPA
|Sub:  NO JESUS 2
|Date: 09 Jan 96  20:22:00
EID:0265 2029a2c0
AS> It always kind of amused me that all these characters in STAR WARS
AS> had Biblical names, like Luke Skywalker. (For that matter, Superman's

DC> Not as badly as they used them in "Battlestar Gallactica".  

Someone was mentioning that the Mormons had a lot of influence on the
scripts...

AS> family name was El, which Siegal and Shuster, as the Jewish youths
AS> they were, would have known meant "God").

DC> Thanks for noticing that.  I remember all of the xxx-El's, but 
DC> never made that connection.  

Of course, remember that the creator of Superman's last name is Siegal.
A recent revamp made Superman's grandfather named Seyg-El, as a sort of
tribute...(and "Krypton" really means "unknown"--the element was named
such because at first they weren't sure what it was...so it's not so hokey
a name for a planet as you might think. Certainly sounds niftier than
"Planet X" or something.)


AS> WIth reason. Their position was already precarious, chosen by an
AS> outsider like Herod, and the people knew it.

DC> Herod wasn't so much as an outsider but a pragmatist.  He knew 
DC> where his bread was buttered.  

And a ruler who is around during the early years of the Empire (as opposed
to the Republic) had to tread carefully. Augustus and Claudius were halfway
decent, but Tiberius, Caligula, Nero...not the best Emperors to work under
if you have a hankering to keep your head on your shoulders...

AS> Which is why he was judged guilty of blasphmey by the Sanhedrin and
AS> sedition against the crown by the Romans.

DC> Best guess, if any of the story is real, the Sanherin trial 
DC> failed utterly.  The political trial was a set up by the Sadducees 
DC> to preserve their power-base.  


I think there are certainly some suspicious aspects to it...the trial by
night, for the most part, and suspect that only a select group of the
Sanhedrin, those sympathetic with Caiphas who were summoned in time,
waiting for the trial. The others, those more sympathetic, didn't get
there until it was too late. I think Caiphas was determined to get rid of
this troublemaker, and was willing to bend the Law to do it. Joseph and
Nicodemus probably didn't get to participlate until He was already in
front of Pilate. The political trial was definitely a set up.

AS> But believing a man was God WAS blasphemy.

DC> Yet, Gamaliel defends their belief.  

He at least lets God do the deciding. In the typical Jewish fashion of
thinking God works through history (which is the way the history of the
Bible is viewed) he felt that either God would make such a belief prosper,
if it was real, or destroy it, if it was not.
How late did Gamaliel live, I wonder? Did he live to see it become a
somewhat influential cult?
(Checking a reference book). Hmmm. 18 years after the fall of Jerusalem
he lived. I wonder if he ever regretted his clemency?



... Jesus lefthanded? Sure! He was perfect, wasn't he?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  ATHIEST AGAINST ABORTION
|Date: 08 Jan 96  22:02:02
EID:e5c6 2028b040
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d1a5c70f
On (07 Jan 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Michael Hardy...

-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Dan Ceppa <=-

MH> Try searching in the Constitution for a reference that specifically
MH> guarantees the right to abortion.

JB> The case was decided under the right to privacy that the Constitution
JB> DOES guarantee, and the premise that what a woman and her doctor
JB> decide is covered under that right of privacy.


No, there is no right to privacy explicitly mentioned in the USC.
Actually, the SC went all the way out on a limb to the word
"penumbra" in order to justify the right to choose.  It was their
contention that privacy rested in the "penumbra" under which the
gov't could not search or seize your goods without due process,
which they did a stretch and defined as "privacy."

Roe v. Wade is an interesting case to read sometime.  Nowhere in
that case does the USSC mention a "right to privacy," because we
quite frankly are not guaranteed such a right explicitly under
the USSC.


... 23rd Rule of Creationism:  Claim superiority for Christian education.

--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Robert Jackson
|Sub:  Homosexual Christians
|Date: 08 Jan 96  22:08:14
EID:bebb 2028b100
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 00d5e235
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 30f0a7c3
On (07 Jan 96) Robert Jackson wrote to Dan Ceppa...

DC> I think that Raven is starting to get in the swing of things.
DC> Though he may have read some before he jumped in here, it
DC> looks like he is learning the frustration of dealing with
DC> the brain dead.

RJ>         I can't tell you how often, as I scan through the index
RJ>         for newbies, they turn out to be fundies as bad or worse
RJ>         than our standard crop--and I have to slump really low in
RJ>         my chair to read what's on my screen while peeking through
RJ>         my fingers.  It gets pretty damn irritating simply because
RJ>         they keep coming and coming and coming...there's really no
RJ>         bottom to the Idiot Well, is there?

Fundies don't come; they don't even allow themselves to breathe hard.


... Think hard now!  Which one is Shinola?`

--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Ryan Shaw
|Sub:  subjection
|Date: 08 Jan 96  22:19:19
EID:3008 2028b260
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 6f40f772
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 0f0447e5
On (07 Jan 96) Ryan Shaw wrote to Maria Russell...

RS> Maria Russell wrote in a message to Katherine Wintersnight:

MR> Oh Katherine, you are being so silly now. The husband is the
MR> final authority in the home.

RS> And you do this to yourself?

RS> I plan on finding a woman that is just as opinionated as I am when and
RS> if I marry.  We'll treat each other as _equals_.

MR> with slavery. If you recall (I know I have said it before), the
MR> Bible tells men to love their wives as themselves. No man

RS> If they did, they wouldn't have the `christian power trips' over them.

Ryan,

It really isn't that difficult, so long as you make up your mind to
do what you want to do, and allow your wife to do what she wants to
do.  I've never understood these couples that always do everything
together, like they were joined at the hip or something.  Where is
it written that just because my husband wants to go to a movie, I
have to want to go to one, too -- and the SAME one at that?  We do
things together when we want to, and do things separately when it
suits us.  For us, it is still working after nearly 32 years.


... "Here, fundy, fundy, fundy. Nice fundy...***<<>>***"

--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Mark Drake
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  Gods, not god
|Date: 09 Jan 96  09:24:10
EID:a624 20294b00
MSGID: 1:128/175 30f23479
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 30f1c538
PID: GED G0615
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8328
Hello Gwenny!

Tuesday January 09 1996 01:29, Gwenny the Pooh wrote to William Childress:

WC>>> The gods you referenced are false. I.E., they are not what they are
WC>>> represented as.

GtP> I worship the Earth.  She exists and all we have comes from Her.

Not to mention, we all return to her.

GtP>  + Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)

Mark

---
* Origin: Cult of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits, 1st Circle (719)632-0057 (1:128/175)
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|From: Mark Drake
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  CHRISTMAS
|Date: 09 Jan 96  09:36:56
EID:ed31 20294c80
MSGID: 1:128/175 30f23802
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 30f1d939
PID: GED G0615
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8328
Hello Gwenny!

Tuesday January 09 1996 02:49, Gwenny the Pooh wrote to Judith Bandsma:

JJ>>> But don't those secular aspects have fairly solid roots in the
JJ>>> Christmas story itself?  It still offends me to see nonbelievers
JJ>>> embrace  these celebrations, which have their root in our faith, while
JJ>>> denouncing  the faith itself.

JB>> A christmas tree is NOT, repeat NOT, a christian symbol. Why do you
use
JB>> a symbol with roots in the pagan tradition while denouncing pagans?
Do
JB>> you use lights on your tree? Not a far step from the burning of the
JB>> Yule log to provide light during the long winter night. NOT a christian
JB>> tradition. Kiss under the mistletoe? Why, you're a DRUID and didn't
JB>> even realize it. Leave out cookies and milk for Santa? Shades of
JB>> pixies! (or brownies, or elves, or kabouters, or whatever your European
JB>> background called them)

GtP> Hey, you should enjoy this song...although it's a little late for the
most
GtP> recent Christmas...

GtP> Hope you had a nice MidWinter Tree Sacrifice. 

Here is another one for everyone:

KILL A TREE

Sung to Jingle Bells

by Ali Katz


Dashing to the mall, in a fleet of rented trucks,
A million hairless apes, are out to spend some bucks.
It's Christmas time again - or maybe World War II-
And to keep their spirits happy they've got to kill a tree.


CHORUS
Oh, kill a tree, kill a tree, kill a tree for Christ.
(Jolly old Saint Nicholas accept this sacrifice)
Kill a tree, kill a tree, kill a tree for Christ,
We're not sure what were doing, but it seems to turn out nice.


2nd verse
We know we each deserve, a ton or two of crap,
But to keep the goodies coming, we've got to spill some sap,
And string electric lights, and raise the ritual star,
And to bribe out friends and family to forget what jerks we are.


CHORUS
Oh, kill a tree, kill a tree, kill a tree for Christ.
(Jolly old Saint Nicholas accept this sacrifice)
Kill a tree, kill a tree, kill a tree for Christ,
We're not sure what were doing, but it seems to turn out nice.

Last verse
We always kill a tree. That's always been enough.
For videos and Gi Joes and all the kiddy stuff
But Mommy wants a Harley, and Daddy wants a boat
That's prob'ly gonna cost at least a chicken and a goat

CHORUS
Oh, kill a tree, kill a tree, kill a tree for Christ.
(Jolly old Saint Nicholas accept this sacrifice)
Kill a tree, kill a tree, kill a tree for Christ,
We're not sure what were doing, but it seems to turn out nice.

As Gwenny said, it's a little late, but save it for next Yule.

Mark

---
* Origin: Cult of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits, 1st Circle (719)632-0057 (1:128/175)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  A Visit 4/4
|Date: 09 Jan 96  22:29:30
EID:e71c 2029b3a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35418
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1c1eb0b2
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Katherine were killing time yakking about A Visit 4/4:

LB> CM> wrong  with a joke?  What is wrong with two people having sex outside
LB> CM> (where God probably wanted it), etc?


LB>"Married, Will Cheat?"

KW>   Do you think that's what he means by 'having sex
KW> outside'?  I guess that's where 'Three or Moresomes' comes in.


Right.  I don't see anything wrong with sex outdoors (unless it's on your
neighbors lawn without their permission, of course), but there is no
justification for "cheating" -- which implies a deliberate attempt to
deceive your spouse, from either a Christian standpoint, OR from any view
which values honor and honesty.  I found it hideous that he would attempt
to justify those echos by dragging in God as co-conspirator.




Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Don't look conspicuous. It draws enemy fire.

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  Abortion
|Date: 09 Jan 96  22:37:10
EID:6f14 2029b4a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35419
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b3
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Maria were killing time yakking about Abortion:

LB> Hi, Dick!  Welcome to Holysmoke.

LB> To get you up to speed on the participants of this particular
LB> conversation, Maria IS a literalist.  David is not a Christian, does
MR> 
MR> Thank you for the compliment. I'm glad my position is clear. But I am

Not a compliment -- simply a statement of fact, which you've confirmed.
Don't read anything more to it then that -- it was a neutral description
of your views.

MR> still wondering about yours. Are you a Christian? I really can't tell.

I suppose you'll simply have to decide whether to take me at my word on
it
or not.  I see many things from you that are insulting (IMO) to God, and
a gross twisting of Jesus' words into the pettiest justification for bigotry
and spite.  But I will not question whether or not you are Christian when
you say you are -- that is between you and God, and I trust in Him to deal
with you accordingly.  Will you allow the same to me, or would you like
to
continue questioning that which scripture has told you not to?



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "I can't make it out.  It's either WELCOME or KEEP AWAY"  -Moe

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 09 Jan 96  23:00:51
EID:ef55 2029b800
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3541a
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f098c0
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Judith and Maria were killing time yakking about A LITTLE HELP FROM SP:

JB> Most of the WORK involves finding sites, getting permits, paying off
JB> the local police. I know that's hard for some to believe, but almost
JB> all places we ever set up required a 'donation' to the local sheriff.
JB> Negotiating that donation's size could be the hardest part of all. Then
JB> arranging for electricity, water, etc. Not the glamourous stuff it
JB> might seem. 
MR> ========================rest of claptrap
MR> deleted======================= 
MR> Only PROVES that there are still charlatans in the world and YOU are
MR> part of it. The revival I assisted in didn't have the trappings you
MR> showed. OURs were sincere!!!! You are a total mockery!!!! And you
MR> accuse Christians of behaving contrary to what they  "preach". Can you
MR> say HYPOCRISY? Can you say THIEF? Can you say LIAR? Can you say
MR> APOSTASY? 

Can you say HISSY-FIT??!



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Stop, or I'll say stop again." -- British Police

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   All
|Sub:  imploring
|Date: 09 Jan 96  23:56:08
EID:c09f 2029bf00
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3541b
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b5
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Steve and Maria were killing time yakking about imploring:

KW>   Your husband employees you?

SR> More likely he IMPLORES Maria to get a life.  Too bad she never
SR> listens. 

MR> As an obedient wife I would have to listen. So obviously those words
MR> have never crossed his lips. 


Bwahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maria admits she has no life!!



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "A chimpanzee and two trainees could run her." - Scotty
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   All
|Sub:  individuals
|Date: 09 Jan 96  23:56:17
EID:6392 2029bf00
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3541c
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b4
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Judith and Maria were killing time yakking about individuals:

MR> prefer my mail being addressed to MY name. So go toss that one in your
MR> hopper, since you haven't a clue as to my position on most things. 


More hoppers!



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Shoes For Farm And Ranch: Claude Hopper
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Preston Simpson
|Sub:  PERSEVERE
|Date: 09 Jan 96  23:35:00
EID:01c6 2029bc60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3541d
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30f18e59
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
AL and Preston were killing time yakking about PERSEVERE:
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, AL SCHROEDER mumbled "PERSEVERE"

AS> Perhaps the Christians should not criticize each other in this
AS> echo; but then it looks a little hypocritical to outsiders,  who see
AS> us criticizing others without cleaning our own house first.

PS> Who better to criticize Christians than other Christians? There's at
PS> least a snowball's chance in hell that those criticized will listen
PS> to their fellow Christians.

No -- as you can plainly see, by the simple procedure of denying the
Christianity of anyone who criticizes them, they can safely ignore ALL
criticism.



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Boren's Law: When in doubt, mumble.

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 10 Jan 96  02:14:51
EID:8b61 202a11c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3541e
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f09885
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim and Maria were killing time yakking about 2 SO, WHY GOD?:

AS> the Scriptures themselves say this--in Romans Paul talks of good
AS> actions being a pagan's "advocate" before the Lord, that it shows the
AS> "Law etched on their hearts". It's not stressed from the pulpit, but
AS> it should be. Because it's right there.
MR>
MR> Where's that found?

JS> I think perhaps he is making reference to:

JS> (Rom 2:13 NIV)  For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous
JS> in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared
JS> righteous.

JS> (Rom 2:14 NIV)  (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do
by
JS> nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even
JS> though they do not have the law,

JS> (Rom 2:15 NIV)  since they show that the requirements of the law are
JS> written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and
JS> their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

AS> I don't
AS> think you, for instance, would be thrown away by any reasonable God,
AS> from what I know of you.

JS> I find this quite interesting that Al would think that for the sake
JS> of a 'good deed' this heinous blasphemer (M. Leipzig), brutal abuser
JS> of those who profess God's name would be spared eternal damnation. Not
JS> a shred of scripture to support this apostate theory.
MR> 
MR> True, for then it becomes a salvation based upon works and we know
MR> that isn't scriptural. 

I am sincerely curious -- what does the above passage of Romans mean to
you?



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Acting is an art which consists of keeping the audience from coughing."

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  [1/2] GRACE
|Date: 10 Jan 96  02:22:09
EID:5d92 202a12c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3541f
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b7
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Maria were killing time yakking about [1/2] GRACE:

JB> Also, I must disagree here.  This attitude simply _scraps_ the concept
JB> of Divine Grace ("undeserved reward") and seeks to rob God of His 
JB> Authority.   I hold God's _Grace_ as superior to the idea that you
JB> must  "ask Jesus" (Who is God's _Son_, not God Himself, as Jesus
JB> _clearly_  indicates by speaking of "My Father in Heaven) "to be your

LB> I have broached this a few times with little success. When those who
LB> indicate a faith in grace ALONE, while insisting on a formulaic
LB> declaration of belief, they are condradicting themselves -- since
LB> requiring a specific "I believe" statement is, by definition, a WORK.

MR> 
MR> No, you err. "Works" is when someone does something like feeding the
MR> poor, helping an elderly lady across the street, helping the sick. It
MR> is this concept that some denominations feel will get them into
MR> heaven, and it's a falacy. Faith is strictly  "believing" which is NOT
MR> a work. It's a matter of receiving what is being offered. Check the
MR> Bible. 

Whoa -- reread what I said.  "A formulaic declaration of belief".  There
are those (and I truly don't know whether or not you are one of them) who
insist a SPECIFIC formalized statement of belief be publicly declared before
one is considered "saved".  That sort of thinking ranges all the way from
the Catholic insistance on baptism and confirmation as an entrance into
the
Body of Christ, to evangelical churches who expect some sort of Altar Call
experience and tend to think every one who is saved has an exact date or
one specific episode in which they "gave their heart to Jesus" (usually
through a prayer that has a very specific formula).  Such things are works,
else no one could argue about whether or not it was done "right".  As such,
it leaves no room for those who CANNOT complete the formula "correctly"
to
simply believe (I take it you've decided it's a bit silly to stand on your
comment about something not being valid because it's a "belief" thing?)
--
that leaves out everyone who lacks opportunity or ability to complete the
ritual properly.  I do not think God is so petty that he's going to stand
there, ticking off the elements of a repentant person's prayer and say,
"BUZZZZT! You forgot to specifically acknowledge thus-and-so, so you're
outa
here! Next!"


LB> It is only if Jesus can work, utterly unhindered by our failings, that
LB> Grace is possible.  
MR> 
MR> Jesus offers salvation inspite of our failings.

Exactly.
And why does that not include an imperfect ability to express one's faith?


JB> Lord and  personal saviour" in order for God to decide to save --rather
JB> than  waste-- you.  I cannot fathom why people seem to think they
JB> _know_  --from Bible lore or from _anything_ else-- whom God will
JB> choose to save  and whom He will not.  That is UP TO GOD ALONE, in real

LB> Amen!
MR> 
MR> First of all God doesn't pick and choose. Salvation is offered to ALL,
MR> but it's accepted by few. 

That would make God's plan a failure.  I think more accept it than you know;
you simply do not recognize it.  Thankfully, God has greater insight than
you
or I.



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... I Love Fractions: Lois C. Denominator

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 10 Jan 96  02:52:38
EID:a663 202a1680
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35420
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
ANTHONY and AL were killing time yakking about AN INTERESTING SITUATION.:
AG> How do you mean? Many have been raised from the dead in our day.
AG> You're too late to peddle that load of old Nellie. 

AS> Names, dates, references, please.

Elvis, Jim Morrison, JFK, John Lennon (I heard his voice on that new Beatles
album, so no one can tell me any differently)....



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Nothing is real." - John Lennon

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  Christian
|Date: 10 Jan 96  02:59:49
EID:93ee 202a1760
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35421
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f098c6
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Maria were killing time yakking about Christian:

JS> And this is Lynda Bustilloz who once professed to be a 'christian'.
I

LB> "Once"?  Don't be coy, Jim -- I am stating I AM a Christian. If you
LB> wish to say otherwise, have guts enough to say so flat out.  And on
LB> this *I* will be the literalist and affirm that the consequences for
LB> you saying so, or even judging in your heart without saying so
LB> regarding it will be greater for you than for me. My belief is between
LB> me and God -- it's not up to your vote. 
MR> 
MR> Would you flatter us with your testimony as to how you got "saved"
MR> then? 

No, Maria, I won't.  Like Jim, you also have taken it upon yourself to make
your judgement without first asking (or caring) what may have led up to
it.
I will let you live with that judgement, not hand over to you any further
information for you to judge.  You see, there ARE consequences for making
judgements about someone else's salvation, and as much as I don't like you,
I'm not going to assist you in getting yourself in deeper than you are now.
If there comes a point where you sincerely admit the error of making such
a
premature judgement (and it is premature if you make it at all, as it isn't
your place to do so, ever), then and only then we may discuss it.  And I
would be as interested in hearing your story at that time too. (Not now,
as I currently am so revolted by everything you say that I would be unable
to read about it objectively)



JS> have since read some of your alleged 'theology' and I guess I
JS> shouldn't even wonder why you demonstrate the same ridicule, lack of
JS> compassion and understanding here as your pagan cohorts...

LB> And that's what it all boils down to, isn't it?  You don't like it
LB> that I don't pretend I think you are some really great guy, and for
the
LB> supreme act of showing up your peculiar brand of lunacy, you just
LB> "know" I'm not a Christian.  Such humility, Jim, to think that the
LB> deciding factor of one's salvation rests on YOUR personal like or
LB> dislike. 
MR> 
MR> No, I wouldn't say that.

*shrug*  We can't all be a part of the Staal Fan Club.  He has you, I'm
sure
he won't lose sleep about me not joining in.

MR> But it sure seems you come to the defence of
MR> the "heathens" here and make a special point of tearing Christians
MR> down. So if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....it surely
MR> must be a duck! 

Then you haven't been paying close attention.  I come to the defense of
those
I see being wrongly accused by people who are not content to simply say
"You're wrong", or even engage in some Holysmokish witticism, but feel
obligated to slander God by suggesting that such a person will burn in hell
for an eternity simply for a disagreement with a Christian.  I point out
errors where I see them, whether it be from theist or nontheist -- and it's
really not MY fault if most of the errors come from the fundy side of the
fence.

Truly, Maria, I will be ever grateful that I have been a Christian for many
years, and have met Christians like Al so that I am aware of exactly how
SMALL
a crew your brand of Christian really is.  Between you, Jim, Christian,
and
Prewett, if I were a less experienced Christian, or one who has not known
how
MANY different types of nonpetty Christians there are, I would be tempted
to
take you all at your word, and simply give up, and declare myself not a
Christian, if it means that I must be like you.  What makes me angry beyond
words is that you, and the likes of you, HAVE turned people away from Christ
who mistake your shallow, vindictive view of the gospel for the real thing.

It would be so much easier for you if I would walk away from the faith,
so
that you could comfortably ignore me, but I won't.  Everytime you preach
a
gospel of hell and damnation, you show where your heart lies, and I won't
let you slander the Name of my Saviour unopposed.


Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Your epidermis is showing!

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  COINCIDENCE SCREW UP
|Date: 10 Jan 96  03:41:55
EID:90f8 202a1d20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35422
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0032c810
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
James and Katherine were killing time yakking about COINCIDENCE SCREW UP:
JB> cm> Death Cult?!?!?!?  I don't need to kill anyone to satisfy my God.
8)

JB> FR> And yet you pretend to have jointed the cult that has a 
JB> FR> long history of doing just that.

JB>Well, from what I've gathered, Christian doesn't have much support on
this
JB>echo, however, I can sympathize (and relate) to his situation (and I
*AM* in
JB>the dark on this one, not knowing exactly what faith Mr. Miller follows):

KW> Christian is some form of xtian.  The other xtians on this echo don't
KW> seem to willing to embrace him, though.

Well, would YOU?!  Who knows where he's been??! (outside, having a threesome
without his wife's knowledge, I guess)


Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Damnit, Jim, I'm a doctor...he's willing to pay HOW MUCH?

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  HUCKSTERS
|Date: 10 Jan 96  05:01:23
EID:39e7 202a2820
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35423
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Michael and Judith were killing time yakking about HUCKSTERS:

MH> Sounds a bit like the movie "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin and
MH> Debra Winger, BTW. You ever see it?

JB> Nope. Can't stand Steve Martin.

You probably wouldn't have cared for the movie, as the "theme" was that
the
scam artist was changed by an encounter with a boy who had real faith (as
opposed to most of those at the revivals who were looking for simply a
spiritual "high").  However, Mike's right -- it is obvious by your description
that there was someone on the writing staff of "Leap of Faith" who had a
good
working knowledge of the sort of trickery and mumbo-jumbo used by many
travelling revivalists.

On the subject of the majority of those who attend revivals, I would say
that
it sounds like you give back fair return for their "donations", Maria's
conniption aside.  When you left, they felt good about themselves, both
for having attended such an "uplifting" event, and for helping out someone
they thought was in need.  Not a bad trade off.  I don't go to the carnival
without expecting to pay a certain amount for the rides and booths -- if
it
is a 2000% markup on the prices, or the BIG prizes aren't actually winnable,
that doesn't really matter.  I know what I'm willing to spend, and if I
can
say I had a good time after, I don't really care whether or not those at
the
carnival "conned" me out of my money.  I got what I paid for.

The real crime you committed, as far as Maria is concerned, is not in ripping
anyone off, but in forcing her to realize the nature of the ripoff.  You
gave away the magician's secret, and she will never be able to see another
revival in the same untarnished light again -- you've spoiled the show by
letting her see what's behind the curtain.



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... If the conniption fits, wear it.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
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SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  religion in schools
|Date: 10 Jan 96  04:18:21
EID:0c72 202a2240
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35424
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f09895
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Marilyn and Maria were killing time yakking about religion in schools:

MB> and its relationship to the advancement of civilization." It would
MB> be difficult to teach art, music, literature, and most social
MB> studies without considering religious influences.

MR> But the study of the influence of religion in our history is slowly
MR> disappearing. It's now come to the point that the history books are
MR> teaching our children that the reason the pilgrims came over was for
MR> financial reasons; totally missing the religious  persecution that
MR> occurred in England. 

No mention of their religious reasons at all?  I find that hard to believe.
Which history text is that in?  If you give me the title, I'd like to
address the publisher of it and ask why they ignore an essential portion
of our history.  The beliefs of the Puritans colored many of their actions,
and has continued to have ramifications for us as a nation to this day.
I will say this -- the history texts my kids have used make no such deletion.

MB> The history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other
MB> scripture as literature (either as a separate course or within
MB> some other existing course) are all permissible public school
MB> subjects. It is both permissible and desirable to teach that the
MB> pilgrims came to this country with a particular religious vision,
MR> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MB> that Catholics and other have been subjected to persecution or
MB> that mahy of those participating in the abolitionist, women's
MB> suffrage, and civil rights movements had religious motivations.

MR> But they are not. My daughter's history book negates that.

Oh, good -- it's your daughter's text, so you will be able to pass on the
title.  If you would, please include the publishers address so that I can
write them.


MB> 6. These same rules apply to the recurring controversy surrounding
MB> theories of evolution. Schools may teach about explanations of
MB> life on earth, including religious ones (such as "creationism"),
MB> in comparative religion or social studies classes. In science
MB> class, however, they may present only genuinely scientific
MB> critiques or, or evidenced for, any explanation of life on earth,
MB> but not religious critiques (beliefs unverifiable by scientific
MB> methodology). Schools may not refuse to teach evolutionary theory
MB> in order to avoid giving offense to religion nor may they
MB> circumvent these rules by labeling as science an article of
MB> religious faith. Public schools must not teach as scientific fact
MB> or theory any religious doctrine, including "creationism,"
MB> although any genuinely scientific evidenced for or against any
MB> explanation of life may be taught. Just as they may neither
MB> advance nor inhibit any religious doctrine, teachers should not
MB> ridicule, for example, a student's religious explanation for life
MB> on earth.

MR> But evolution is part of the religion of humanism...which IS being
MR> taught. 

"Religious humanism" is an invention of the Christian fundamentalists, to
try to drag science over into the religious arena, since they cannot firmly
plant religion in the scientific arena.  It's always seems a rather double
edged sword to me, since by doing so, one might consider scientific research
centers as "churches" and grant them tax exemptions on that basis.



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Physical laws simply cannot be ignored." -- Spock

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
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SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
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SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  Ritualized cannibalism?
|Date: 10 Jan 96  04:26:38
EID:142e 202a2340
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35425
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f0989d
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Maria were killing time yakking about Ritualized cannibalism?:
RS> Christians practice ritualized cannibalization.  Are your proud of
RS> that? 
MR> 

MR> Please expound?


LB> He's referring to the Lord's Supper:

LB> "Take, eat, this is my Body, which is given for you.  Do this in
LB> remembrance of me."

LB> "Drink ye all of this; for tis is my Blood of the New Covenant, which
LB> is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.  Whenever
you
LB> drink it, do this for the remembrance of me."

LB> (That's from the BCP -- different denominations may render the
LB> phrasing somewhat differently.)


MR> And if this is the passage being referred to then it is a ludicrous
MR> remark. It is obvious NO one was eatting the body of Jesus nor
MR> drinking his blood.  The Lord's table is a time of rememberance of his
MR> death...PERIOD. 


I agree.  I was simply explaining to you the nature of the accusation of
"ritualized cannibalism" as you requested.

I can't say it's exactly "ludicrous" -- early Christians apparently DID
see
the Sacraments as literally becoming the Body and Blood -- enough so that
early critics called their practice cannibalistic (you see, the accusation
is
no new thing, but has been levied at Christians since the beginning).
Roman Catholics (and I believe, Orthodox) officially still see it as becoming
Body and Blood, and within my own church there is much variance of opinion
regarding the nature of the Eucharist, with many simply stating that Christ
asked us to "take and eat, not take and understand".

Most liturgical Christians do see it as having spiritual benefit and not
being
simply a memorial, while most protestants as far as I know do see it only
in
is memorial sense, and therefore the accusation of cannibalism WOULD seem
patently absurd.  Whether Preston realizes it or not, the accusation itself
both pertains to and cuts me far deeper than it would you.



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Is it progress if a cannibal uses a knife and fork?

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
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SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  The 101st Classs
|Date: 10 Jan 96  04:45:46
EID:9635 202a25a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35426
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f098b6
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Maria were killing time yakking about The 101st Classs:

LB> I have this image of there being a whole waiting room JUST for people
LB> like this.  And God comes in, sighs, and says, "This is the 101 class
LB> for all of you who COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT.  Let's try again....No,
LB> Maria, you should have gone BEFORE you showed up....Christian, get the
LB> pencil out of your nose and settle down,  Hector, you can't ROTFL me
LB> before I open my mouth...."

MR> Then we have Lynda rushing in the door totally disheveled and confused
MR> saying,"The directions in this BOOK said I was supposed to be
MR> here...but I must have gotten lost on the way." 

(G) Very good, Maria. I'll actually give you points for showing a bit of
wit.

Seriously, though, you are probably right -- we will ALL likely be
in the class.  I look forward to it, and see no insult in realizing that
there is much about God I have left to learn.  Nor do I see God as a
tyrant schoolmaster who will flunk us for having not attained graduate
school knowledge while still here in Kindergarten. Nor will I be dismayed
at finding that both those I have called friend and those I have called
enemy are in there with me.





Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Truth will sooner come out of error than from confusion." -F.Bacon

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Preston Simpson
|Sub:  The Case for Jesus
|Date: 10 Jan 96  04:49:57
EID:249d 202a2620
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35427
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30f18e6e
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Eric and Preston were killing time yakking about The Case for Jesus:
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Eric Williams mumbled "The Case for
PS> Jesus" 
EW> PSū The usual count is 66, dimwit. Are you using the bugfix Bible?

EW> Really? 66? Interesting....mine has 73, I guess if Glen is a "dimwit"
EW> for going 1 over your count, that must make me a real dope...eh?

PS> Using a version with the Apocrypha?

Some of us don't like censorship -- even of our holy books.



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "... Freedom ... is a worship word..." - Cloud William

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Preston Simpson
|Sub:  THE ROTHSCHILD DYNASTY 6/
|Date: 10 Jan 96  04:51:20
EID:d5d6 202a2660
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35428
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30f18e71
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.J. and Preston were killing time yakking about THE ROTHSCHILD DYNASTY
6/:

PS> Just think of it! Jews, Satanists, atheists, and nihilists,
PS> all working together for a common cause! NOT!

JH> You left out the Freemasons, the United Nations, the Roman Catholic
JH> Church, the Federal Reserve, the Ku Klux Klan, Procter and Gamble,
JH> the ACLU and the entire population of Fargo, North Dakota.

PS> Also the Knights of Columbus, the Knights Templar, the Illuminati,
PS> the OTO, the Wobblies, and the Girl Scouts.

The Girl Scouts???!!!!  How did you find out about us??!  Has someone been
sending secret messages in the cookies?



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... A secret prize in every call.

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  love
|Date: 10 Jan 96  05:05:24
EID:280b 202a28a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f35429
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 88FE4382
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about love:

MH> I like the way he capitalized "Her Tight Brests" [sic]

LB> Well, if you had to walk around in a metallic bra, you'd call it tight
LB> with a capital T, too!

MH> Hey, leave my private life out of this, OK? :-)

OOOOOHHHHH??????!!!
heh- I don't even know what you look like, and that's STILL a hysterical
image!



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Oui, mon Capitan." -- Q

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  [1/3] Bible Follies
|Date: 10 Jan 96  05:07:03
EID:735d 202a28e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3542a
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f0989b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 1 of 3...

Lynda and Maria were killing time yakking about Bible Follies:

MR> Marilyn, the last time I checked, it was the "state" who wouldn't
MR> allow anything remotely "religious" any where near schools. And
MR> mention of religion in history has been forbidden as a topic of
MR> discussion.

LB> Really?  What grade are your kids in?  I haven't seen anything
LB> remotely "religious" being banned from my kid's schools -- and
LB> altogether that is, let's see....6 elementary schools and 1 Middle
LB> School, covering 3 states (CA, AZ, and MD) as well as a DODs school
LB> over in Germany.  Last month's elementary school holiday program
LB> included religious Christmas carols, a Jewish Hannukah song as well
as
LB> secular pieces.  The Middle School's Advanced Band included several
LB> religious selections, including a beautiful canticle for trombone which
LB> my daughter and husband practiced together and played for our church.


MR> My daughter's school would only allow secular Christmas carols..none
MR> that dealt with the Christ child..No "Little Town of Bethlehem" or
MR> "Joy to the World". But I happen to be in NE. 

Hmmm -- what part of NE?  I grew up in Belleview, outside of Offutt AFB
near
Omaha.

I suppose each system deals with it as they will -- but that is the point
here.  You tend to suggest  that it is some sort of federal infiltration,
or even at the state level.  I would say that such prohibitions come from
the district level (where they should be, as that is where the community
can
have the greatest say in how their schools are run).  As such, you are
free to attend every district meeting and speak your peace, if such really
concerns you.

OTOH, while I have no problem with nonsecular music being offered at a school
program, I would have no problem if that nonsecular music were Jewish, or
Indian or Asian, or even "The Lord of the Dance" which my grandmother use
to sing to me as a child, and I have since learned that it is considered
a
Wiccan "hymn" of sorts. Good music is good music, and I have never believed
in keeping children ignorant of beliefs and cultures that differ from our
own.  In Arizona, the school children participated in La Posada -- and missed
it not being part of the Christmas tradition here.

Nor would I have a problem with an entirely secular program. After all,
Christians have easy access to the religiously oriented programs via their
church, and those who come from a different religious POV certainly have
the
same right as you or I to have a voice in how their children are educated,
and whether or not their tax dollars should support religion -- primary
ONE
specific religion, as even when other religions are given a nod, it is
minimal at best.

LB> And just last year, I accompanied my daughters Social Studies class
on
LB> a field trip to D.C. where we made two stops -- one to the Moslem
LB> Cultural Center and the other to the National Cathedral.  Since I know
LB> the second will interest you more, I assure you the woman who was our
LB> guide spoke with deep reverence about the religious concepts that went
LB> into the construction of the Cathedral.  In BOTH places, the kids were
LB> allowed (and DID) ask theological questions as well those of a more
LB> mundane level. 

LB> Sorry, Maria -- no government boogieman stopping the public school
LB> systems I know from acknowledging the existance of religion, either
in
LB> history, or among their student population.
MR> 
MR> Maybe not in your area...but mine there is.

Then you have two options - - move, or get involved more.  But don't assume
that your school district is reflective of the country at large, or that
it's
rigid interpretation of freedom of religion indicates some sort of nationwide
conspiracy to prevent your children from expressing their religion.


MR> There have been several
MR> attempts in this state to close down the Christian schools by using
MR> phoney baloney insinuations. They constantly harrass the schools with
MR> inspections, which prove to be naught in the end.  

Early, you said they HAD shut down a number of Christian schools.  Have
they,
or has it merely been an "attempt".  Could you please post news articles,
or
specific schools so that it could be verified?

As for "phoney baloney insinuations", such tactics are also used by Christians
toward public schools -- insinuations like the schools are teaching satanism,
and other unadulterated BS.  And ALL schools are subject to "inspections",
because in this this country all children are entitled to an education,
and
if a private school is simply hiring nonskilled parents, or subjecting the
students to unsafe practices or abuse, the state has a right to step in.
There are also health and nutritional standards that must be met by both
private and public schools -- it's not harassment, its the insistance that
the
children attending those schools will not be harmed by their time there,
or
miss out on the minimum level of education they have a right to as citizens
of the U.S.  As long as the school meets those standards, the State couldn't
care less if they are taught religion.

>>> Continued to next message...

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  [2/3] Bible Follies
|Date: 10 Jan 96  05:07:04
EID:37ad 202a28e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3542b
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f0989b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 2 of 3...


MR> And the theory of evolution is taught to our  children as
MR> if it were fact (and you know we disagree on that).  The schools have

LB> It's taught as theory, Maria, along with the evidence pointing to that
LB> theory. If you disagreed that 1+1 is 2, would you expect the schools
to
LB> say it's 7 in order to appease your views?
MR> 
MR> In my daughter's school it is taught as fact. They never say "its only
MR> a guess but the best one we have". 

That's because it's not a "guess" it's a theory based on research and evidence
gathered via the scientific method.  And unless your school is truly dropping
the ball, it also mentions the "evolution" of the theory of evolution,
which would be indicative of its being an ongoing process.  Science teachers
nowadays have study as much as their students just to keep up with all the
new discoveries -- which is probably one reason there is such a shortage
of
good science teachers, as it means that one can never rest and think they
know it all.  Another reason is that those that are interested in science
get
a bit weary of finding their classroom turned into a religious battleground.


MR> also tried becoming our children's parents by talking to our children
MR> about sex without our permission and without our values being

LB> Again, how old are your children? My oldest is in 8th grade (at an age
LB> where sexuality is covered in the Health curriculum) and I've had to
LB> sign a permission slip to allow her to attend those sessions.  
MR> 
MR> Mine is in 7th but NO permission slip came home. And I did ask for a

Did you check her backpack?

MR> copy of the curiculum and they hemmed and hawed where the course was
MR> over before they "remembered" to give it to me (though I called them
MR> weekly on it). 

Did your child attend?  Is it at ALL possible that your child failed to
deliver
said information to you because she knew that you would object and keep
her from attending the class?  Kids don't like to be singled out, and it
may have been that your child did not want to face the commentary that would
have surely followed having to be exempted from the class.  Young adolescents
can be intensely cruel, especially when it comes to their budding awareness
of sexuality.

However, that aside, I seriously doubt that if you'd gone to the school
and
stood there until they gave you the curriculum into your own hand, that
they
would have refused -- it's a lot easier in the long run to take a day out
to be IN the school than it is to sit home and complain about for weeks.

MR> intergrated. They also have taken it  upon themselves to tell them how
MR> they should act socially, in regard to other races and even
MR> homosexuality (I'm not saying their ideas are necessarily wrong in
MR> this, but that we aren't asked to participate and interject our values

LB> Horrors.  They set rules that disallow students from being abused by
LB> other students, verbally and physically.  How dare they?!  Look, unless
MR> 
MR> Note my last two lines, please!!! I said it isn't necessarily wrong,
MR> but that I would like to interject my own values in social issues with
MR> my daughter. It is my job to be the parent, not the school. 

Well, DON'T you interject your own values regarding social issues with your
daughter? Or am I confused, and this is a boarding school where she never
gets to come home?  Good heavens, you have her all summer, as well as every
morning and evening -- if you haven't established a code of ethics in that
period of time, how do you hope to do so on school time?

MR> I'm not talking about RULES...I'm talking about values that the
MR> schools set for my children or rather the lack of values that I feel
MR> are important that I should influence my child with but the school
MR> negates with their propaganda. 

You are handing over WAY too much control to the school if they can "negate"
what you have taught her from the day she was born.  Most values are set
by
the age of four -- it sounds like one value you must have set within her
is
to go along with the herd, if merely being with a group of kids can "negate"
everything you've said.  If you see the school as so dangerous (propaganda?!),
then why is she attending there?

MR> in any of these  discussions). Most of the time, we don't even know
MR> about the social agendas being put forth until the "sessions" are
MR> already in progress or after the fact. So with all this happening, I

LB> It's your responsibility to be aware of any "social agendas" going on
LB> in the school system.  Ever hear of the PTA?  Ever considered
LB> volunteering in the classroom so you can SEE what's happening?

MR> Yea, let me tell you about the PTA. I joined them this year and NOT
MR> once have I heard from them about a PTA meeting. 


>>> Continued to next message...

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To:   Maria Russell
|Sub:  [3/3] Bible Follies
|Date: 10 Jan 96  05:50:21
EID:cbfc 202a2e40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 30f3542c
REPLY: 1:141/1299.0 30f0989b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 3 of 3...

I've been a member of the PTA whereever we've been since the day my children
started school.  I'll tell you this -- it is entirely possible that the
PTA
DID deliberately not inform you about meetings.  If your real-life persona
is even vaguely like you come across online, they may well have been avoiding
you on purpose.  However, that's not good enough as an excuse for you --
PTA meetings are generally set up on a regular basis, and one doesn't NEED
to
be member to attend.  Schools usually send home monthly newsletters which
include meeting dates and times, but even if yours doesn't a phone call
to
the school secretary (anonymous, in case they really are hiding out from
you)
will give you that information.

Now, if you were expecting some sort of personal invitation to attend --
don't hold your breath.  The couple of bucks for dues doesn't BEGIN to cover
the cost of that sort of thing, and personal attention is usually reserved
for those who have put in volunteer time.



Lynda Bustilloz      bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Persecution is a bad and indirect way to plant religion."
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The only intelligent fundy...is an EX-fundy. (1:109/601)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To:   Glen Zilly
|Sub:  The Case for Jesus
|Date: 09 Jan 96  00:01:50
EID:204a 20290020
MSGID: 3:711/933 30f1b136
REPLY: 1:271/320.0 30EDC2DE
Dear Brother Glen Zilly,

Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

GZ> The Bible contains 67 books written by different authors of different
GZ> languages in different locations at different times and was finally
GZ> compiled some years after the life of Jesus Christ.

I believe you mean 66 Books.

Kind regards,

Anthony Grigor-Scott

--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Tetrahedraverse
|Date: 09 Jan 96  11:28:05
EID:c21b 20295b80
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 036f6f4e
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 030c870f
On 06 Jan 96, Fredric Rice wrote:

> =======================================================
>  Copied from U_NEW_THEORY by John Brawley (86:8012/9.1)

FR> We saw which ignorant pseudo-science posted to this forum before, you
FR> know. It's no different than any Creationist tract from the ICR.

(*grin*)  _Sure_ it is!  It's my own work, not something parroted from 
the work of others.

JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com   FidoNet: 1:100/435.1

... I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

--- PPoint 1.96
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: John Brawley
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  mcproof.txt
|Date: 09 Jan 96  11:28:58
EID:d7d4 20295b80
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 388e6306
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147ea1
On 06 Jan 96, Fredric Rice wrote:

FR> Steve,

jb> Wrong name.

FR> Same fundy.

That your idea of accuracy?  It's to (*guffaw*).

JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com   FidoNet: 1:100/435.1

... "I am Superconductor of Borg; resistance is futile."

--- PPoint 1.96
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 289/72 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37
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PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: John Brawley
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Tetrahedraignorance
|Date: 09 Jan 96  11:30:00
EID:8785 20295bc0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 b8ea15a7
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147ea2
On 06 Jan 96, Fredric Rice wrote:

jb> This spacetime metric contains "God" as its major nonlocal topological
jb> component.  I will not spend much time defending it here in HolySmoke,

FR>   Once again the cultist attempts
FR> to defend his occultism by pseudo-science.

jb> "Cultist"...?  Wrong designation.  You're clueless, Clueless.

FR> You're the one who's playing the Creationist, Steve.  If you're going
FR> to act like a fundy Creationist, expect to be treated like one.

I don't "expect" anything from the likes of you but ignorant 
superstitious (atheist) claptrap.  Makes us about even, eh?

JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com   FidoNet: 1:100/435.1

... Your logic is flawed; evacuate your premises immediately.

--- PPoint 1.96
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  THUMB-SUCKING FUNDY
|Date: 09 Jan 96  11:30:56
EID:27c3 20295bc0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 9c5c7eb0
On 07 Jan 96, Roger Hunter wrote:

-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-

JB> Absolute-omnipotent, anything-is-possible God-acts are not evidenced.

RH> No, but they are claimed. The OT is full of them,
RH> It also fits the definition of "omnipotent" better than QG nudging.

Right on both counts, but for me it's necessary not to limit things to 
Bibliolatry.  There're all these OTHER religious patterns that have to 
be taken into account, like the Buddhist, Shinto, Zen(semi-Buddhist), 
Jain, and so on (and on, and on, and on...).  Not to mention that ALL of

them have to have themselves harmonized with science.  QG's one main 
value is that it is primarily guided by _scientific_ information, which

by definition and by methodological procedure, is inherently "universal"

(worldwide the same).

It seems in here that most of the griping has to do with the Bible-style

fundie-isms.  The world is MUCH wider than that.

JB> The timing of  a rock-fall, for example, may be adjusted, since
JB> logically an almost-  about-to-fall rock will fall only when the
JB> balance is broken by some one  quantum change that is _right_ on the
JB> edge of going over into "falling"  from "stable."  Or animals, which
do

RH> I question whether a quantum phenomena would be large enough for this.
RH> If it was that close to falling, the difference in time would not be
RH> measurable.

That depends on how carefully it's balanced, and on the other gross 
"physical" forces near it, upon it, or affecting it, wouldn't you say?

The quantum-science attitude toward any one single quantum event is that

it's _ambiguous_.  That's where the "permission" lies, and even that's 
restricted compared to the internal edge-of-chaos systems in a non- 
'self-will'-quality animal brain, eh?

RH> BTW, did you get my message on icosaheda(not)s? Is 13 spheres enough?

JB> 13 spheres is the exact number for _both_ an 'icosahedro(not)' and a
JB> vector equilibrium.  I sent you a long post in return, on that one.
JB> You  did not receive it?  (You mentioned somehow you had _15_ in the

RH> Yes, I did, and answered it too. FIDO is uncertain at best. Many of
my
RH> messages seem to evaporate somewhere....usually the BEST ones, too!

(*Grin*)  Known effect.  Sympathize.

JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com   FidoNet: 1:100/435.1

... The Eye of Proteus becomes you.

--- PPoint 1.96
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: John Prewett
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  Antichrist
|Date: 09 Jan 96  19:17:07
EID:7aa8 20299a20
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012@fidonet AD186FB3
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
me> Jesus  said NOTHING about Antichrist. Paul   said NOTHING about
me> Antichrist. Peter  said NOTHING about Antichrist. James  said NOTHING
me> about Antichrist. Daniel said NOTHING about Antichrist. The Revelation
me> says NOTHING about Antichrist.

JP> The Revelation says SOMETHING about the final "beast"s.
JH> And where, pray tell, does it say that the Booger Monsters
JH> in the Revelation are Antichrist?

Periodically from Revelation chapter 13 

to the start of chapter 20.

Everybody that hates God, Christ and Christians

will love the final "beast"s. 

WBW,  John

--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds,  FBKS,  AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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|From: John Prewett
|To:   Ryan Shaw
|Sub:  Pretending there are deities 
|Date: 09 Jan 96  19:29:31
EID:7eb1 20299ba0
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012@fidonet AD18729B
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
LSM> My father current lies near death after suffering three strokes
LSM> this week and God is in the room with all of us,
LSM> comforting while we hold vigil over him.

Fred Rice> I imagine it's comforting to the ignorant to pretend, yes.

For lurkers,  the above is the remark which started this. 

RS> John Prewett wrote in a message to David Hilling:
JP> Hmmmmmm,  Now where  did I lay that book of jokes
JP> about heathens and queers dying of AIDS ?

My original response [above] was to Fred Rice, not to D.Hilling. 

RS> Fuck off.
JP> I note that,  being the little bitch that you are,
JP> you deleted Fred's comment that provoked mine.
DH> John, you sure got a lot of balls to be bitching and moaning
DH> over someone altering posts, you hypocritical little shitass.
DH> I suspect that your sense of humor is deader'n John F. Kennedy.
JP> Come back when you catch me deleting without marking the deletion,
JP> and deleting to materially change meaning of a post.
RS> It makes little difference what anybody said to you .......

Your above sums up the heathen judgment of you and Hilling.

You both show obvious dishonesty by ignoring

[deliberately deleting] Fred's comment

which  I facetiously responded to.

If you cared about cruel remarks,  
you would have also chastized Fred. 

You didn't chastize Fred because you're just little

heathen hypocrites that really don't care about 

cruel remarks coming from the team heathen. 

RS> ........ and that does not
RS> change your remarks above or make them right.

In the context of what Fred said,  

it was obvious that I was being facetious.

RS> As such, fuck off.

WBW,  John

--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds,  FBKS,  AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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|From: John Prewett
|To:   Hector Plasmic
|Sub:  HOW MANY MESSIAHS ON
|Date: 09 Jan 96  19:33:53
EID:f88e 20299c20
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012@fidonet AD1873A1
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
JP> ps- just a hint.  Mike's point is that if something is true/real,
JP> then it is true/real whether one likes it or not.
HP> Hint:  It's up to the one who claims something is true/real
HP>        to demonstrate that it is true/real.

Opinion noted.  WBW,  John

--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds,  FBKS,  AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
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SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: John Prewett
|To:   Asmodeus
|Sub:  White-lighter Religions
|Date: 09 Jan 96  19:39:15
EID:4c2e 20299ce0
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012@fidonet AD1874E3
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
As> #5  Yes, that does figure if you think about it. 
As> Where is the proof of a 'heaven'?  I see none.

Get back to me when you WANT to see a bit of "evidence."

WBW,  John

--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds,  FBKS,  AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   John Prewett
|Sub:  White-lighter Religions
|Date: 08 Jan 96  04:10:28
EID:7f9d 20282140
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60350857
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012@fidonet AD1507F9
As>> What keeps all you white-lighters clinging to your 
As>> religion?

JP> What's a "white-lighter religion"?

New Improved Lemon Scented Christianity WITH BLEACH!

(or was that flavor christals? I forget...)


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  SATAN BEGONE !
|Date: 08 Jan 96  05:28:21
EID:4341 20282b80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6035bbce
REPLY: 1:372/57@fidonet.org 56b71bb5
JB> I still believe our 'Christian' is Psycho Ward. And 
JB> especially since I posted to him in Dutch and haven't gotten 
JB> an answer yet. That was Ward's MO. He couldn't find anyone 
JB> to translate for him so he just left them alone. Everyone 
JB> else has always asked for, or demanded, an explanation.

Was that Dutch?
I thought it was line noise.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  I,M STILL HERE
|Date: 08 Jan 96  05:31:35
EID:0500 20282be0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6035c648
JB> I got an idea for a chain of gift shops called 'Tacky 
JB> Town'. They would specialize in things like chia pets, fish 
JB> lamps with marbles, etc. Unfortunately, I have lost my 
JB> arbiter of tackiness. She was a woman who, if she liked 
JB> something, you could be absolutely sure it was tacky.

JB> Want a job?


No, but you can put me down for one of those electric "cat"
clocks. The ones where the tail and eyeballs go back and forth.
I'd like a light green one.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Monty Gibson
|Sub:  Why
|Date: 08 Jan 96  05:45:10
EID:494e 20282da0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6035ee40
MG> You must know alot about sodomy to be such an expert? But 
MG> God destroyed a whole city because of the lude behavior 
MG> that was going on and yes, including sodomy. Just a little 
MG> history that you probably never heard of before.

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT!

The Bible clearly states WHY Sodom was destroyed.

It's in Ezekial 16:49;

"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom,
pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness
was in her and in her daughters, neither did she
strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."

Can you understand what this verse is saying? Or do
I need to explain it to you? Sodom was destroyed for
being uncharitable. Didn't have a thing to do with
sex in any form or fashion.

Don't like it?
Take it up with God.
I didn't write the fucking Bible.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Kirk Bailey
|Date: 08 Jan 96  06:20:00
EID:4c79 20283280
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60363fc9
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 30ea67c5
KB>>>> As a last bit of advice; DO NOT talk this way in the 
KB>>>> `real' world; someone will adjust your dental geometry 
KB>>>> for you. Good-bye.

DW> If I remember correctly, Kirk posted the above nonsense to 
DW> me.  I'm still waiting on him to come to Knoxville and make 
DW> the attempt.  I need neither laws nor firearms to fuck up 
DW> his day.

I thought I got that one...

Damn... he's sending out form-letter threats.
I hate when they do that.

Not unlike the letter I got from Publisher's Clearing House which
said on the outside of the envelope: YOU ARE ONE OF OUR TOP FIVE
FINALISTS! REPLY NEEDED.

Just before I drop it into the trashcan next to the mailboxes, I 
pause to look into the can. As expected, there are already about
twenty TOP FIVE FINALIST notices already in the can. 


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Christmas
|Date: 08 Jan 96  11:43:38
EID:f3b7 20285d60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60392b52
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0389a603
rj>> Jesse makes me think more and more that William Kunstler
rj>> really didn't die, and he's just hiding out in Florida 
rj>> under an assumed name.

FR> Yeah?  Forgive my ignorance; I don't know how William 
FR> Kunstler was.

He was old.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  A Visit 4/4
|Date: 08 Jan 96  11:51:46
EID:1221 20285e60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 603946cd
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e86
jjh>> I saw nothing to indicate he is a "heathen" or White Punk 
jjh>> On Dope Pagan. The impression I got is that he is exactly 
jjh>> what he appears to be: someone who is a believer due to 
jjh>> societal or family expectations and is somewhat less than 
jjh>> comfortable with his religion.

FR> It's the message areas on his/her board that make me 
FR> wonder.  If he/she is really the rabid fundy that we see 
FR> here on HolySmoke, I wouldn't expect his/her BBS to have 
FR> those forums.

FR> Unless he's/she's one of these Jim Bakkkers who rants about 
FR> homasexyules while rubbing his crotch.

I think the Swaggart profile is a better description than
Bakker. 




ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Nut Case #326522 - "Noah's" Magic Boat lunacy
|Date: 08 Jan 96  11:56:45
EID:2ef5 20285f00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 603980b0
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 03147e87
FR>> Perhaps if I had included Grey aliens you would have
FR>> recognized it as such.

jjh>> The Good Greys or the Evil Greys?

FR> Um, the ones which capture tight young women, tie them up 
FR> on their beds, and conduct "medical experiments" upon them.  
FR> I don't know if they're "good" or "evil."

When you realize that such fantasies are as close as those 
people get to having a sex life, it probably makes them
the Good Guys.

After all, some people take out "adult personal" ads to
receive such services:

DWF/M (dumpy white female living with mother) seeks ET
for "experiments" and quiet nights in. Prefer non-smoker.
Bring your own restraints or use mine. All planets of
origin accepted. Quiet types OK. Must be kind, understanding
and caring. Reply: Fat Chance Trailer Park and Auto Storage,
Box 666, Dickbump, Tennesee.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  So -shoot- me!
|Date: 08 Jan 96  18:29:16
EID:a4a0 202893a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 603ce2b2
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 039332d6
SM> ~!~ William Tecumseh Sherman: American Military Genius and 
SM> Statesman!!

Tecumseh?
No wonder he was such a son of a bitch.
His parents must have hated children.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   LARRY SITES
|Sub:  VIRGIN
|Date: 09 Jan 96  03:51:14
EID:cf2f 20291e60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60424562
LS> Paul in no different than David Koresh. Both lunies who 
LS> like to talk.

I have to differ. Paul appearently had the "gift of gab".

I listened to Koresh's "give me an hour of air time and 
we'll come out" sermon of March 2, 1993 and Koresh was no
public speaker. My impression at the time (and now) was
that it was Koresh's first, last and only attempt at speaking
before an audience. He probably had flunkys do his "teaching"
for him within the compound.

The following samples should give some idea at how piss-poor
he was at expressing his thoughts verbally. All elipsis indicate
long pauses, not editing:

"Now about the... of the scene. Jesus went up to the temple
and talked. The Jews... having never learned. Now the days
of Israel, most scholars, teachers, will agree that the
schools of Israel ordained by the king of Egypt and also the
Pharisees were still subject to the... theological... of today."

"Well, Christ tells you... in Matthew 24. He says that ye shall
see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
and the Holy Place. Of course, it says ye that read it may not
understand. What kind of points are these? What is in the mind
of Christ? Is Christ trying to tell us that we need to go back
and study the prophet Daniel? That maybe Daniel had the inside
story on abomination and desolation? Abomination is something
nobody wants, especially if it makes us desolate. What do these
things mean?"

"God in heaven looks to be a rock, doesn't he. Oh God, hard rock,
but wait a minute... through Christ we can see that God is not
as hard as you might think he is."

"It's kind of like people always build the... and garnish
their... yet they hate to kill living prophets. But nonetheless,
the... churches lived to see it. For anyone to read direct
counsel given, beginning with a name for church... the rest
is given."


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Pam Gray
|Sub:  Re: 325
|Date: 09 Jan 96  04:42:19
EID:8753 20292540
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6042813b
REPLY: 1:250/1004 01905839
PG> I believe now being Wiccan is now a legal religion so 
PG> there's christian, jehovah (sp?) witness, moslem, buddist, 
PG> judism and perhaps one or two I haven't mentioned.

Is "Judism" the worship of Judy or the worship of Jud?

I keep getting those two mixed up.



ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Robert Jackson
|Sub:  COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 09 Jan 96  05:21:48
EID:f155 20292aa0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6042eaf9
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 30ecac4d
JH>> But it would still have to be sturdy enough to withstand 
JH>> accelerations up to your .1c crusing speed.

RJ> A Hefty bag is structurally sturdy enough to withstand .1c
RJ> in a vacuum.  

Emphasis should be on the acceleration, not the .1c.
A 1 kilometer diameter Hefty bag scoop would tear under 
it's own "weight" while under acceleration. Something
has to hold it in place. Otherwise it would end up
trailing behind you.

(The structural dynamics for a "scoop" are not the same 
as for a sail. You could always make a sail stronger 
simply by adding more tethers. A scoop would require
rigid members.)


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Rob Burcham
|Sub:  CHRISTMAS
|Date: 09 Jan 96  05:40:52
EID:5294 20292d00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60431597
REPLY: 1:280/9 0297c118
RB> And the greatest of all AM radio stations (at least, in my 
RB> youth): KAAY, Miracle on Bleeker Street.

1090 kHz in Little Rock, Ark.

Now THAT is a station that has done some changes.
In case you don't already know, their current format is hardcore
right wing religious "patriotic" shit.

But what really caught my eye was the reference to Bleeker Street.
Thought you might have been talking about "Bleeker in the Bowery"
for a moment.



ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   RONALD VASS
|Sub:  Offensive ASCII
|Date: 09 Jan 96  05:53:58
EID:3269 20292ea0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60432b84
RS>>There's always the HolySmoke standard [notice the penis]:

RS>>                              (        )
RS>>                             {   (| |)  }
RS>>                             {    | |   }
RS>>                              {    U   }

RV> S O    W H A T   .. he , according to the myth , was a male 
RV> ? yes/no. 


Eh... does it really make any deferens, Vass?


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Kris OKelly
|Sub:  Re: ACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCK
|Date: 09 Jan 96  05:56:53
EID:f302 20292f00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60432dbb
REPLY: 1:279/14.3 30ee6906
KO> noah was a real person in world history!, well God Sad the 
KO> world was so bad & Sinful he wanted to start over.. 

God Sad?

Whatever happened to God Happy?


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Robert Jackson
|Sub:  A Visit 4/4
|Date: 09 Jan 96  11:25:10
EID:f335 20295b20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6046374e
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 30f1e709
FR>> It's the message areas on his/her board that make me 
FR>> wonder.  If he/she is really the rabid fundy that we see 
FR>> here on HolySmoke, I wouldn't expect his/her BBS to have 
FR>> those forums. 

RJ> What I find unusual is that, in the two years I've been on
RJ> this echo, and of all the fundies whose BBSs anyone should
RJ> choose to call on a whim, why it would be the fundy with a
RJ> list of sexchat groups.

It was the fact that Miller's name appeared in the NodeList that
prompted my checking him out.

RJ> Of course, any accusation that JJ would've made the whole 
RJ> thing up was instantly nullified by Miller's immediate 
RJ> admission and subsequent backpedaling.

Which can only mean one of two things:

Either I am Christian Miller, or Miller was too stupid to
deny anything.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Preston Simpson
|Sub:  ARK
|Date: 09 Jan 96  11:37:10
EID:f5a2 20295ca0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6046699e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30f18e72
JH>> Members who had broken any of the thousands of rules (and 
JH>> this included small children, one young offender ate the 
JH>> "Commodore's" telex) were locked in the "anchor locker" 
JH>> with a small wire brush and told to clean the chain.

PS> Ugh. And if they refused?

Wouldn't happen. A literally unthinkable option. Membership on
Flag was a special honor, those who signed on for the "billion
year tour of duty" were not newbies off the street but persons
who had already been in the rank and file for years. If anyone
was going to refuse anything, they would have done it long before
they ever became a candidate for Flag.

And besides, in the event you were someone who had deliberately 
infiltrated the organization: you were at sea. Are you going to
walk home? Anyone that close to Hubbard couldn't have helped but
notice that he was crazy enough to toss you overboard (with
weights). That never happened, but only because it was never
necessary, I don't think Hubbard would have given it a second
thought if he felt the need.

So how is it that we know anything at all about life on Flag?
Hubbard was a paranoid. He was always finding people around
him that he felt needed to be drummed out of the organization.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Asmodeus
|Sub:  Re: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 09 Jan 96  12:27:57
EID:a042 20296360
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6046c696
A> As for what career goal I have set for myself, that is 
A> nunya, but I will share anyhow.  (I am already grown, just 
A> getting some tuition togethr)  I woullike to have a career in 
A> electronics, but I am being strongly pulled toward my
A> favorite pastime-Writing.  



Writing, huh?
Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension first.



ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Asmodeus
|Sub:  Re: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 09 Jan 96  12:31:08
EID:a042 202963e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6046c9a8
A> White_Punk_On_Dope Pagan, I think not.  I imbibe alcohol 
A> from time to time but I do not touch dope.  And how very 
A> stereotypical of you to label me a caucasian individual.  

I didn't.
I called you a punk.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Luke Clark
|Sub:  Re: White-lighter Religi
|Date: 09 Jan 96  18:14:28
EID:9c74 202991c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 604a0487
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 30ef7b84
PS>> Define "white-lighter."

LC> New Age (Rhymes with Sewage) Crystal weenies, and certain 
LC> Wiccans.

My own first face-to-face encounter with "Crystal weenies" was
at a local Neo-pagan solstice festival, and they most genuinely
were Wiccans. (I could stomach some of that shit, but when they
started talking about their pretty rocks being "parts of Our
Mother's Body", I had to go puke in the bushes.)

The insistance that there is some unbreachable wall of seperation
between the two reminds me of the "WE ARE NOT GROUPIES!" line from
Frank Zappa's Live At The Fillmore album.

They dost protest too much.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Alan Hess
|Sub:  snow in the Bible?
|Date: 09 Jan 96  22:56:18
EID:0040 2029b700
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 604c913f
AH> Are blizzards and major snowstorms mentioned in the Bible, 
AH> or did God forget to create snow?

Yup.
About a dozen or so references.

One verse in Job even hints at the early Hebrew notion 
that God has a warehouse full of the stuff:

38:22  Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow?
or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, [...]

One of the apocryphal books named The Book of Enoch (there
are several books that claim to be the Book of Enoch, insist
on the One True Version) not only has the snow and rain being
stored in warehouses, but it has teams of angels who raise
and lower lightning bolts by means of a system of chains.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub:  coincidence screw up
|Date: 10 Jan 96  01:45:56
EID:6582 202a0da0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 604e1105
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 30ea9929
LB> I have this image of there being a whole waiting room JUST 
LB> for people like this.  And God comes in, sighs, and says, 
LB> "This is the 101 class for all of you who COMPLETELY MISSED 
LB> THE POINT.  Let's try again....No, Maria, you should have 
LB> gone BEFORE you showed up....Christian, get the pencil out 
LB> of your nose and settle down,  Hector, you can't ROTFL me 
LB> before I open my mouth...."

(hand raised)  "What's a firmament?"



ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Ryan Shaw
|Sub:  Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 10 Jan 96  01:52:50
EID:597a 202a0e80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 604e2955
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 0eaf46f4
LSM>> Disease, like weeds and painful childbirth for humans is 
LSM>> the result of sin. 

RS> Disease is the result of microbes.

Infection is the result of microbes.
Disease is a deviation from normal function and is not 
limited to microbes as a causal agent.


ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 1/1 11/157 13/13 100/525 102/0 735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103
SEEN-BY: 105/330 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002 2230/118
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801 102/890


|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Scot Bear
|Sub:  Re: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 10 Jan 96  02:04:36
EID:9ca4 202a1080
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 604e440e
REPLY: 1:154/69.0 30eafb6e
SB> Hell, every echoarea needs a paranoid mi