God Damned Fundies!
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Jealous God
|Date: 15 Jan 96 11:27:18
EID:f524 202f5b60
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 7 Jan 96 06:24am, Jesse Jones wrote to Linda Whitten:
JJ> Dan, I think you should know that Steve Quarella is posting
JJ> messages using your name, to try to make you look stupid.
LW> How do you plan on proving this? (Genuinely curious)
JJ> It's a *joke,* Linda.
It was a joke worthy of someone of your stature.
... Why do we learn more from lessons, and less from morons?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Staal shows his colo
|Date: 16 Jan 96 13:36:18
EID:334d 20306c80
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Good afternoon! To which personality am I writing this afternoon?
On 7 Jan 96 11:51pm, Jim Staal wrote to Steve Quarrella:
JS> THAT'S IT!!!! Stand by for JimLump.gif...coming soon to a BBS near
JS> you...
Is it going to sit in my inbound for a few days while you run around here
saying that I have it while I'm unaware that I have it?
... Is it live, or is it Memorex?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ab
|Date: 16 Jan 96 13:36:40
EID:5328 20306c80
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Good afternoon! To which of your multiple incarnations am I writing?
On 6 Jan 96 09:49pm, Jim Staal wrote to Martin Goldberg:
JS> Sounds more like impetus or exhortation to me, Martin. Why is passing
on
JS> information received as 'hate'?
Just don't get mad when someone calls you a bigot with a Bible, as the
adjective describes you perfectly.
... If there's an ounce of brains in you, you must have a tapeworm.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: David Rice
|Sub: WHY
|Date: 15 Jan 96 12:01:20
EID:5314 202f6020
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 8 Jan 96 02:00pm, DAVID RICE wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA:
DR> someone "so deluded." Therefore I've finally discovered what
DR> "Kato's" real name is---- Jesse Jones!!!!!
I wonder if there's a parallel here, given that we not-too-long ago saw
a
liar by the name of Kato in the courtroom. Jesse IS a lawyer, after all.
... "Fuenteovejuna lo hizo." -- Mengo in Lope de Vega's "Fuenteovejuna"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ab
|Date: 15 Jan 96 11:55:12
EID:c72f 202f5ee0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 7 Jan 96 11:27am, Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Staal:
FR> ~*~ You'll go to hell! You'll go to hell! Almighty God himself!
FR> You'll go to hell! Again, You'll go to hell! - Jerry Wilcox
This -almost fits "The Farmer in the Dell."
"You'll all go to hell! You'll all go to hell!
Almighty God himself! You'll all go to hell!"
... Confucius say, "If you want pretty nurse, you got to be patient"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Staal shows his colo
|Date: 15 Jan 96 11:57:52
EID:ef62 202f5f20
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 8 Jan 96 09:02am, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to STEVE QUARRELLA:
SQ> I've had this very interesting vision of both of these guys, covered
SQ> with fur, approaching a giant black monolith and being guided towards
SQ> the ability to master one's environment.
ML> I get an image more in line with "201 Minutes: A Space Idiocy",
ML> whereby these two knuckle draggers pummel and tip the thing
ML> like a constipated Coke machine to the point where it falls and
ML> flattens them into the local landscape.
Heh...and the powers behind the monolith turn Earth into a sun so that life
on the moon can move forward.
... What did tornadoes sound like BEFORE there were freight trains?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Homosexual christians? N
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:31:54
EID:5b84 203163e0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 6 Jan 96 12:55am, Sean McCullough wrote to Preston Simpson:
SM> "Gospel" is descended from the Anglo-Saxon (Old English) "God spell",
SM> or GOOD TIDINGS.
These days, it's more like "Good spiel." :-/
... Check your hormones at the door. THANKS -The Management
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Helping fundies
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:18:42
EID:480d 20316240
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 7 Jan 96 01:08pm, Fredric Rice wrote to Steve Quarrella:
FL> Well, Styx tells me that a few fundies here on HS have seen the light.
sq> Oh?
FR> The HolySmoke Central Committee hasn't been informed of this. }:-}
I wish that Styx had cross-posted any relevant material to GET_JESSE,
GET_RON, or GET_MORMONS.
... OK, you lost me when you changed languages.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Fight THIS evil!
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:16:32
EID:dbee 20316200
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 6 Jan 96 06:26pm, Fredric Rice wrote to Steve Quarrella:
FR>> ~*~ FUCK YOU ATHEIST! WHEN I FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE, I'LL DRIVE
A
FR>> PITCHFORK THROUGH THAT EMPTY HEAD OF YOURS, YOU ARROGANT PIG!
FR>> - Christopher Calabrese
sq> Did I ever see Jesse Jones fighting THIS "evil?"
No, he continues to let him and others like him speak for his club, then
"running for cover" with the "They're not True Christians" copout after
the
damage has been done.
FR> I wonder how many of these fundies would be willing to attend a
FR> gathering of 'Smokers in Texass.
We should do it in a wooded area of Arkansas, where some of them would
probably feel much more at home (Then again, I LIKE it there, and can't
conceive of the Fundies trampling all over my vacation spot.).
... Hello? Fredric Are you there? Earth to Fredric ? Hello?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christmas
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:21:20
EID:c566 203162a0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 7 Jan 96 01:28pm, Fredric Rice wrote to Steve Quarrella:
sq> I'm still waiting for his definition of "evil," and why this
sq> echo in particular is worthy of Mr. Jones's efforts to battle
sq> the aforementioned "evil."
I'm going to write an opera about crickets.
sq> And Curry is waiting for a reply to RC query #1. Here we sit
sq> like birds in the wilderness, and Jesse's sitting there thinking
sq> "Gawsh, these guys sure ask a lot of stupid questions!"
FR> Yeah and then tries to pretend that us heathens are "running for cover."
The funny thing is that _I_ haven't run for cover. It is -Jesse- who hides
behind a tree in the woods while I'm attempting to seek him out and get
answers from him.
"Mr. Jones has learned how NOT to be seen."
... Old cop, young cop, feel alright...
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christmas / Jesse Christ Jones
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:23:12
EID:51fe 203162e0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 7 Jan 96 01:52pm, Fredric Rice wrote to Steve Quarrella:
jcj> Or is there something that makes you hope you will
jcj> hear a word that puts you in touch with the divine?
sq> I don't know as to what "word" he's referring.
'Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious," perhaps? The only thing that comes
to
mind is when Robert Plant says "Suck!" before Jimmy Page launches into that
great solo in "Communication Breakdown."
... That which does not kill me had better be able to run away damn fast.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Charles Rollins
|Sub: ARK nut
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:59:48
EID:b5e9 20315f60
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 13 Jan 96 02:29pm, Charles Rollins wrote to Steve Quarrella:
SQ> This is what we see out of you in echos like RA_UTIL, PROBOARD, and
SQ> FE_SUPPORT. Funny how you accuse others of that which you are a master
SQ> yourself.
CR> I learned a lot from you guys on here..thanks, you are good teachers
CR> after all.
That was very clever on your part.
... "Hello, Dr Chandra. Have you heard the word of God today?" - unknown
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: lawyers
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:59:02
EID:de78 20315f60
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 12 Jan 96 06:08am, Jesse Jones wrote to David Worrell:
DW>Just out of curiousity, what kind of lawyer are you?
JJ> A good one. And I do mostly commercial litigation.
We figured out rather early that you didn't major in canon law. :)
... Seen on a VW Beetle's license plate: FEATURE.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 16 Jan 96 13:31:16
EID:bf9a 20306be0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 14 Jan 96 07:33pm, Robert Jackson wrote to Steve Quarrella:
SQ> This from the government that also has a problem with Wolfenstein 3D,
SQ> Rise of the Triad, and Doom. Yet I have several co-workers who tell
SQ> me that there's a sex shop in every German airport in which they've
SQ> landed.
RJ> Yeah, you can have a woman ballgagged and tied up like a Thanks-
RJ> giving turkey with a Chinese cucumber stuffed up her crotch,
RJ> with lashmarks across her back put there by a guy in a leather
RJ> trench- coat wielding a cat o' nines...but just don't have that
RJ> guy wear a swastika armband! That could send the wrong message.
Careful! Maria Russell might -enjoy- that!
... Writing to Washington won't help -- he's dead!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: ARK nut
|Date: 16 Jan 96 13:32:52
EID:c812 20306c00
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 14 Jan 96 11:31pm, Robert Jackson wrote to Steve Quarrella:
SQ> This is what we see out of you in echos like RA_UTIL, PROBOARD, and
SQ> FE_SUPPORT. Funny how you accuse others of that which you are a master
SQ> yourself.
CR> I learned a lot from you guys on here..thanks, you are good teachers
CR> after all.
How original.
RJ> Steve, am I to understand this boy's a pottymouth when it
RJ> isn't part of his pseudomoral posturing? Would you be so
No. He just whines in other echos besides this one. His last choice bit
was complaining out in FE_HELP that he should have been notified about
recent Fastecho update, and I saw him the other day whining about all the
updates to IceEdit.
... Revenge is a dish best served cold. -- Vito Corleone
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: PROOF Cane and Able
|Date: 16 Jan 96 13:33:34
EID:adc3 20306c20
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 02:54am, Robert Jackson wrote to Steve Quarrella:
FR> You know, I _tried_ making it to a Christanic church last week but,
as I
FR> approached the church, the skys darkened, the wind came up hard, and
it
FR> started to rain so hard that I couldn't see ten feet ahead of me.
SQ> Good thing you didn't go into a graveyard, else you might have been
SQ> speared by a lightning rod.
RJ> Time for the Doctor to regenerate...
He did...Paul McGann is the new one. ;)
... What sort of photo would one need to blackmail Madonna?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Bogus 'Psychic' Nutcase
|Date: 17 Jan 96 15:32:32
EID:9f18 20317c00
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 12 Jan 96 12:16pm, DAVID RICE wrote to BETHANN:
>>B> So- I'm a psychic,
>DW> Really, now? What's my mother's maiden name?
Aw, come on! Go for the gold...what are this week's winning Texas Lotto
numbers?
B> [cut] If you want me to read for you, make arrangements to
B> come over and I'll pull out my cards.
DR> Why do you not accept James Randi's challenge and win yourself
DR> over have a million dollars?
Remind me to dig this up...I typed it up for Alan Kern a while back, and
strangely, he disappeared a short time after.
... Seen on a VW Beetle's license plate: FEATURE.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Fof
|Date: 17 Jan 96 10:45:48
EID:1dfb 203155a0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 14 Jan 96 04:33pm, Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote to Steve Quarrella:
KDM> Yeah, but that's different. There's a law against displaying anything
KDM> Nazi-related, and all three have swastikas in them, at the least.
That's true, and that's the primary reason all three proggies are in trouble.
However, the German government DOES cite the violence content as a secondary
issu.
... Xpress Yourself!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Cartoon in USA Today
|Date: 17 Jan 96 10:46:46
EID:b2a3 203155c0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 05:40pm, DAVID RICE wrote to FREDRIC RICE:
DR> I was at a picket of O.J. while he was at the golf course in
DR> Dana Point. Well, we weren't actually picketing O.J.--- it was
DR> a protest against domestic violence, with O.J. as the posterboy.
DR> I'll let you know when the next one is held.
I'll have to attach in mail for you the OJ Simpson Windows icons I just
downloaded today.
... "Hello, Dr Chandra. Have you heard the word of God today?" - unknown
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Pope-A-Question
|Date: 17 Jan 96 10:52:04
EID:26f7 20315680
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 05:32pm, J.J. Hitt wrote to Steve Quarrella:
JH> I recently heard a catholic on the radio claim that there were
JH> two black popes. They gave the names, but I missed the names other
JH> than that they sounded "kinda Latin".
You might aim this one at Sean McCullough...I think he shot this one out
of
the sky a while back. I've seen the rare reference to an antipope as a "black
pope," but there were far more than two antipopes.
... "The Book of Mormon is chloroform in print" - Mark Twain
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Gods, not god
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:16:42
EID:4be6 20315a00
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 05:37am, Marty Leipzig wrote to Christian Miller:
ML> Christian Miller, who wanted to be a miner, but was lousy adit, said
to
ML> Marty Leipzig:
ML> Atheist.
CM> Yup, what one starts.... the rest will follow...
Is this irony week, or what?
... Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: WHAT'S A "FUNDY?"
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:35:26
EID:fe77 20315c60
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 12 Jan 96 09:56pm, Fredric Rice wrote to Judith Bandsma:
jb> This is getting almost as bad as the 15 years it took me
jb> to get through to him that I do NOT like blueberry yogurt.
FR> It's funny, huh? Someone likes something a lot and they want to
FR> "share." Tell them FOR YEARS that you've tried it, didn't like it, no
FR> thanks, but thanks any way, and they think that you just need to try
it
FR> again.
I would hope that after 15 years I'm not still telling the Mormons "Sorry,
we've tried it already!"
... The 'c' in rap is silent.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:03:00
EID:0acc 20315860
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 01:28pm, Jim Staal wrote to Shelby Sherman:
JS> None: (Psa 116:15 NIV) Precious in the sight of the LORD is the
JS> death of his saints.
And boy, didn't that help Joseph Smith!
SS> Until you provide some sort of evidence that this LORD exists, this
SS> "precious sight" is pretty damned meaningless, isn't it, milk-crate?
JS> I guess we have nothing further to discuss, Shelby. BTW, you should
do
JS> something about this rage you carry around with you. Bye.
"Bravely ran away away...
When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled..."
I love it when they cop the "You're angry" excuse and run off.
... Welcome to Hell! Here's your copy of Windows.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: To Each His Own
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:12:26
EID:7472 20315980
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 09:17am, Marty Leipzig wrote to Steve Quarrella:
RH> Like the topic says my friend. May God bless you.
SQ> "Bravely ran away away...when danger reared its ugly head, he bravely
SQ> turned his tail and fled..."
ML> "I didn't!"
ML> "No, I never...!"
It's funny how they come in here "to fight...and...", but when danger rears
its ugly head, we hear "That's..that's enough music for now, lads."
... Real Programmers use "Copy Con Filename.exe"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:15:28
EID:eac1 203159e0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 12 Jan 96 10:35pm, Fredric Rice wrote to All:
FR> Is it just my perception or has the quality of fundy we get through
here
FR> declined over the years?
Shit...are we beyond our Golden Age? They don't make 'em like Stringfellow
or Stokes these days, do they?
... Your mother's in here, Rice. Would you like to leave a message?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: High Censuosity.
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:17:48
EID:52e2 20315a20
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 02:45pm, Marty Leipzig wrote to Robert Jackson:
ML> In fact, the punishment for such oversight in Norway is so
ML> heinous that no one will count that country's inhabitants...
ML> In fact, they've taken leave of their census.
That's a Swede story...have you Finnished?
I know...your reply will be "Norway!"
... Seen on a VW Beetle's license plate: FEATURE.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ab
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:37:28
EID:c72f 20315ca0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 12 Jan 96 10:26pm, Fredric Rice wrote to Kenneth Mcabee:
km> Wait a minute Fred, tell me exactly where does he say that he hates
them?
Easy...his self-proclaimed agents tell us that God hates gays. Then those
same agents run for cover when they're called on it.
FR> Wait a minute, Ken, tell me where exactly Hitler says he hates Jews?
Er, "Mein Kampf" would be a good place to start.
... The world is like a cactus except the pricks are inside.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
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SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Received Threat / FBI
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:39:02
EID:eb96 20315ce0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 14 Jan 96 11:00am, Fredric Rice wrote to Robert Jackson:
FR> Just like the Children's Crusade of 1212.
I thought that was Navas de Tolosa.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: "Good things heathens have done for me lately"
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:55:58
EID:d53e 20315ee0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 09:32am, Marty Leipzig wrote to Steve Quarrella:
SQ> I just wanted to mention to you that David Rice sent me a wonderful
SQ> book for Christmas, and that Marty Leipzig sent me some rather nice
SQ> cigars. It seems that they appreciate using my BBS, so would you like
SQ> to speculate as to why these two "heathens" would do something so nice
SQ> as to send me gifts?
Do I get an answer from Jones on this one? No. Will he at some future
date reaffirm his stance that atheists "for the most part" do not do good
things? -Yes.- I don't have to be Nostradmus to figure that out, either.
ML> We're not real heathens...we're false heathens...
"False heathen scum." Hmmm...I'll have to think about that one.
... The part of the government was played by Mister Haney.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: If ya' liked it once, you'll love it twice.
|Date: 17 Jan 96 11:56:44
EID:a568 20315f00
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 16 Jan 96 11:26am, Marty Leipzig wrote to All:
ML> THE TOP FIFTEEN RIDICULOUSLY LONG BIBLICAL NAMES
ML> 1) Mahershalalhashbaz:
Didn't the Three Stooges refer to this when they were performing operations?
... So, I lit the fire, isn't it good Norwegian wood?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Offensive ASCII
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:05:02
EID:cc05 203188a0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 3 Jan 96 03:21am, Robert Jackson wrote to Shelby Sherman:
SS> |\/\/\/| oooooo
SS> | | ___________________ / \
SS> | (o)(o) / Don't have a cow, | / |
SS> c _) / Mom! She lost her / ( | |
SS> | ,___| _/ pacifier! / | | |
SS> |___/ ------------------- | | |
RJ> I think I can see the quick exodus of at least 5% of the
RJ> echo from this alone. Got one of "Olef"?
This one was definitely the winner. Strange that I haven't heard back from
the node who decided to send me junkmail, receiving THIS as a bounced message.
... Dalek gardener to plant: "GERMINATE! GERMINATE!"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: All
|Sub: maria russel in the new_world_order echo
|Date: 17 Jan 96 15:57:03
EID:f533 20317f20
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 0fd62501
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
She's in the new_world_order echo. Perhaps someone would like to heckle
her there? :p
* Forwarded (from: new_world_order) by Ryan Shaw using timEd/2 1.10+.
* Originally from Maria Russell (1:141/1143) to Bob Delugach.
* Original dated: Sat Jan 13, 11:42
-=>Bob, where will you be spending eternity? <=-
BD> Hello Dan!
BD> In a message to All <01/09/96> Dan A. Post wrote:
DA> I don't know, I haven't seen anything on here lately to speak of.
DA> I am still trying to figure out if this is a pro or anti NWO type
DA> conference, or what the deal is...
BD> Haven't seen much here lately myself ;-)
BD> I do believe we are anti-NWO, but let's hear what ya got
BD> to say!!!
So state some "conspiracy" theories and why you don't believe in them...say...the
Illumanati.
... * OFFLINE 1.58 * :`"``"`:,.,:`"``"`:,.,:`"``"`:,.,:`"``"`:,.,:`"``"`:
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
___ QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0389
- Origin: Needful Things and FidoNet.. What a Winning Combo.. (1:141/1143)
---
* Origin: Yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye. (1:152/67)
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SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 152/67 8 270/101 218/801
|From: Josh Talbot
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 15 Jan 96 15:16:15
EID:d545 202f7a00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:260/801.0 30fc7795
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6083789c
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Preston Simpson <=-
JH>> I for one wouldn't give mathematics even half a thought if
JH>> I had to do the arithmetic myself.
PS> How many high school students these days know what
PS> a quadratic equation is, let alone how to work one?
JH> How many high school students these days know what a shovel is,
JH> let alone how to work one.
Look not at the students for incompitance but at the teachers. The
majority of teachers from 1st grade up are totally incompetent. Those that
are competaent are hindered be the moralistic rules. If you don't believe
the rules are moralistic I'll take out my folder that has the school rules
listed on it.
--The Knight
... Wanted: Guillotine operator. Good chance to get ahead.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The Barrcks Rat BBS ][ - Elmira, Ny (1:260/801)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
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PATH: 260/801 800 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Josh Talbot
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Women's Roles
|Date: 16 Jan 96 16:18:33
EID:292f 20308240
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:260/801.0 30fc7796
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 30f9ee72
-=> Quoting Robert Jackson to Josh Talbot <=-
LW> that noise!! I've been much happier since I chose to follow paganism
LW> and become my own priestess.
RJ> But, why _religion_ still?
JT> Why not?
RJ> Do you really expect me to dignify that?
Yes, why not religion? As long as people do not try to force their
beliefs on other people... why not?
... "I don't need to think - God thinks for me!" --A Fundamentalist
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The Barrcks Rat BBS ][ - Elmira, Ny (1:260/801)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
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SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 260/801 800 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: DIPSTICK SEES UFO...
|Date: 16 Jan 96 17:32:00
EID:5540 20308c00
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> dictionary. "Opuses" is an alternative to "opera". The
DC> connotation seems as if "opera" is a unified collection where
DC> as "opuses" would be more than one separate group or grouping.
I have checked the dictionary and know you are right. But opuses has
only come to be an alternative due to the popular association of the
plural 'opera'. That, of course, has been for a LONG time now.
It's just that linguistic trivia can be SUCH fun...especially with some
of the dolts we see posting here.
... I came, I saw, got sidetracked, forgot why I was here ..
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 16 Jan 96 18:01:00
EID:7fd9 20309020
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Judith Bandsma <=-
SM> And if she can't do it from YOUR message, I've gone out and bought her
SM> another clue......
If she doesn't get it now, I guess we'll have to fire her. I'd really
rather take pot-shots, though.
... Press now to access the pirate software.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: HI
|Date: 17 Jan 96 06:40:00
EID:7955 20313500
-=> Quoting Annette Spence to Robert Jackson <=-
AS> and then go back and correct later. I think it is sad that someone
AS> would rather pick apart my punctuation than deal with the issue. I
AS> *will* on the other hand take your advice as a good idea. Thanks.
I think what Robert was trying to say is that the style you had written
in before also belongs to the 12 year olds who come in here with nothing
more cogent to say than 'soz yer muther'. It's a big echo, which I'm sure
you've noticed . So a lot of us just scan it. Seeing that type of
punctuation, etc. is an almost certain sign of 'nothing worth reading, hit
the *next* key'. If he hadn't picked apart your punctuation, and gotten
you to change it, I wouldn't have read this message from you at all.
In fact, I didn't read any of your others because I thought they were from
another child who wouldn't be able to handle the fact that her arguments
had been presented 6000 times before over the course of the last 3 months
and weren't worth reading again.
So far, you go in the same category with Lynda. (That's good, btw)
... Some folks look for answers...others look for fights...
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ARK
|Date: 17 Jan 96 07:03:00
EID:43d3 20313860
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> Did you include the _Turtle_? I think it was designed by
DC> Erickson, but he may be of Civil War vintage. For some reason, I
DC> remember that being of Revolutionary War...
Yep. That was one of them. Don't remember it being Revolutionary War
vintage but it was definitely pre-Civil War. The Hunley was also powered
by a hand turned screw, but it held a crew of 8 and was strictly used
as a 'ram'.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THANKS FOR RESPONSE!
|Date: 17 Jan 96 07:10:00
EID:1b58 20313940
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Worrell <=-
DC> Did you ever get your cookies? Lynda and Judith said that
DC> they would send you a bit batch!
The cookies are for Al. For David, we are making a pie. I gotta remember
to ask Lynda if we can add some DMSO. That way, if David won't eat it,
we can throw it in his face and still make sure the active ingredients are
absorbed.
... Please, no deja vu; I don't want to go through that again.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Frederick Leff
|Sub: PYTHON TRIVIA
|Date: 17 Jan 96 07:18:00
EID:7b0d 20313a40
-=> Quoting Frederick Leff to Judith Bandsma <=-
FL> glee! Ok, the guy that ate a "Crunchy Frog" was Superintendent Parrot!
Thank you, sir. My only problem is that now the game won't ask me that
particular question again. Even picking up with a saved game.
It has become a sort of cross between Jeopardy and the Flying Circus. I've
got the answer but can't use it. Maybe that's why they call it the 'Complete
Waste of Time'.
... "Die Jesu Domine, Domine Es Requium." (WHACK!). Repeat as necessary.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: WHAT'S A "FUNDY?"
|Date: 17 Jan 96 07:27:00
EID:9a60 20313b60
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Judith Bandsma <=-
FR> It's funny, huh? Someone likes something a lot and they want to
FR> "share." Tell them FOR YEARS that you've tried it, didn't like it, no
The worst of it is that HE doesn't like blueberry yogurt either. The
scene went like this (at least once a week for 15 years);
Leo: I picked up some yogurt.
Me : This is blueberry. I don't like blueberry.
Leo: You never told me that. Why don't you tell me these things.
Me : I did...last week when you bought it.
Next verse, same as the first. The only reason he finally stopped is that
he is now in Jacksonville and I am here and *I* am doing the grocery
shopping.
... 8 bits = 1 byte; 4 bits = 1 nibble; 8 nybbles = 1 hickey?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: PROMISE KEEPER MATERIAL
|Date: 17 Jan 96 07:45:00
EID:bbb1 20313da0
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jim Staal <=-
FR> I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to
FR> particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart from God
FR> even further than do pagan men. - (Jim Staal, Promise Keeper)
FR> Greetings, Staal! Which one of you have I contacted this time?
Send this one back to him. It's the one he keeps saying he never said.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: FORGIVENESS AVAILABLE
|Date: 17 Jan 96 09:47:00
EID:3948 20314de0
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Marty Leipzig <=-
ML> I see you added to the biomass.
JS> Huh!?
ML> See?
JS> What!?
LB> *giggle*
LB> So, uh, who's on first?
This is hilarious. Maybe I ought to untwit Staal if this is the level of
comedy he's sinking to. Naaah! The other stuff isn't worth it.
... AAAAA: Australian Association Against Acronym Abuse.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: LOVE
|Date: 17 Jan 96 09:51:00
EID:4a20 20314e60
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> (Make Scot happy, and include blood red lipstick....and a bowl of
LB> noodles) ;)
He could stuff the bra with noodles to give himself a bit of 'uplift'.
And don't forget the fingernails...inch and a half at a minimum.
Air-brushed.
... This echo just gets weirder and weirder. Oh wait. That's me. Sorry.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: STAAL SHOWS
|Date: 17 Jan 96 10:07:00
EID:f45e 203150e0
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
ML> And order the Steak Tartare medium well, no doubt.
No, he's the type that would order it and then complain that it wasn't
cooked well enough when it came. When corrected he would then come up
with something like 'I know that, but I like mine well done anyway'.
Yes...for some warm weather to get here so I can grind my own again.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3603/361 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3619/1 25 48 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 3619/25 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal shows his colors
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:29:56
EID:7238 20318ba0
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 6 Jan 96 09:18pm, Fredric Rice wrote to Steve Quarrella:
> * Original: FROM..... Lump (1:228/45.0)
> C'MON FERDIE, GET A LIFE FOR ONCE AND SAY OR DO SOMETHING
> INTELLIGENT....LIKE ROLL OVER AND PLAY DEAD OR SIT AND CLEAN YOURSELF
> LIKE THE DOG THAT YOU ARE...seeing no-one will do it for ya.That's my
Jesus loves him and forgives him. The rest of us think he's a total asshole
on whom we wouldn't piss if he was on fire. I wonder if he'll call me
"VERMIN!!!!!" for that, and I wonder if his masters will be proud of him.
> quote and I will take CREDIT for it, thank you.....Yeah, Lump ain't
in
> the mood to take any more crap from neanderthal ape people like you
who
Lump didn't take HIS medication that day either.
> don't have enough sense to pick their knuckles up off the ground and
> pick their nose.....VERMIN!!!!!
"FUNDAMENTALIST!"
sq> Is this a True Christian at work?
The only answer I got was from the perp himself. I find it peculiar that
my posts to Michael Hardy aren't making it to the system from which he posts.
FR> Read, "Holy Horrors" by James A. Haught then ask yourself the
FR> question.
The question is rhetorical. I simply wish that one of his brethren would
take
him aside and advise him that he's acting like a total ass.
... Q: What does a blonde owl say? A: What, what?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: 2 SO, WHY GOD?
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:17:52
EID:37ad 20318a20
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 03:10am, Robert Jackson wrote to Steve Quarrella:
JS> Poltroon, eh? Stand up and look me in the face when you say that, MISTER
JS> Leipzig! (rent-a-MILKCRATE [TM])
Staal forgot to take his medicine that day.
SQ> Why don't you come to Texas and threaten him to his face, big mouth?
SQ> Tell him you're going to do bodily harm to him and I'm certain a good
SQ> laugh will be had by many.
RJ> Will you be there to snap the pic-turned-.GIF?
I'll make millions off of the videotape.
... What's all this about hellfire and dalmations?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: "Pius" my ass!
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:16:22
EID:27d9 20318a00
PID: SX 4.3 BT026
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
On 15 Jan 96 02:56am, Robert Jackson wrote to Steve Quarrella:
SQ> I've been reading about a few of the current Head Christian's
SQ> predecessors, and am quite at a loss as to why guys like Pius IX and
SQ> Pius X seem to be so beloved (with Pius X having been canonized by Pius
SQ> XII), when guys like John XXIII, Benedict X?? (Pius X's successor in
SQ> 1914), and John Paul I seem to fall through the cracks. You wanna
Wanna bet me that canonization proceedings for John Paul II will begin as
quickly as they possibly can after the old guy is gone?
RJ> Argumentum ad antiquam. If it's older, that means it's closer
RJ> to what Jesus had in mind for the RCC.
Yes, well, in such a case I'd be curious as to why Leo XIII hasn't been
canonized, given that he was between Pius IX and Pius X. :)
RJ> Ergo, new ideas are indicative of the secular world creeping
in
RJ> and dictating what the spiritual kingdom should do.
I just don't understand how someone like, say, Pius X can be so deadset
against "modernism," or how guys like Pius IX can be such tyrants, yet they're
considered to have been "nice guys" worthy of sainthood.
I still think Pius X looks like Bill Shatner.
... Strike it RICH, with Silver Xpress!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 BT026
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Pam Gray
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 15 Jan 96 02:05:26
EID:dca4 202f10a0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 0804047c
PG>HEHEHEHEHE, did you ever get caught!!!
PG>You are right about transporting the trilliums - it's difficult since
they
PG>tend to die very easily when away from their environment.
If you pluck them, if their root system is the least bit damaged they
die...:(
No, we never got caught and now my mother has a small patch of trilliums
that the police look curiously at when passing her garden...:)
PG>Her name is Ursula Keuper-Bennett, she lives in Streetsville so I doubt
you
PG>know her. :)
Pretty name! I know one in Brampton. She's a good friend and is a
riotously funny lady, too...:)
PG>Well you are entitled to just as I am entitled to write about Christian
PG>beliefs I do believe in so I am not offended - it takes a LOT to offend
me!
It's not about belief, but about hiring someone based on their religion.
People have the right to believe what they choose, but if they're in a
debate base, they need to realize that their belief system will be
challanged. When people challange me, I like the way it makes me
think...but some people can't handle that!
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ How many of you believe in telekinesis. Raise MY hand!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:250/1004)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 250/1004 1001 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Boni Hitch
|To: David Fono
|Sub: Agnostic(ism?)
|Date: 15 Jan 96 02:05:28
EID:fd20 202f10a0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 0804047d
DF>I recently got an a heated debate with one of Christian friends -- not
DF>religious, just that he believes in Adam and Eve while I think we evolved
f
DF>single cell lifeforms, etc.
DF>Anyways, I happened to mention that I'm an agnostic. He says he thought
I w
DF>Jewish; I say I am, but that does not neccesarily mean that I have to
belie
DF>in God. Now, everyone around happened to be of the opinion that I DID
have
DF>believe in God -- otherwise, I was an "agnostic", not a jew. I said that
I
DF>could work with Judaism and not avidly accept God, however much they
didn't
DF>Is a religion a faith? Yes.
DF>Is it a belief? Yes.
DF>So a religion is a specific belief in, naturally, God. Sometimes, but
take
DF>into account that Buddhists don't believe in Gof, yet Buddhism is a religio
DF>As well, agnostic is an idea, not a religion in unto itself; agnosticism
is
DF>basically the absence of a specific component of my religion... I'm still
DF>Jewish. After all, I didn't sign a contract when I was born that I'm
going
DF>believe in God.
DF>Anyways, is agnosticism a religion or not? -Stubbs
I don't know if I'd call agnosticism a religion because unlike Buddhism
it is not a set of internal variables manifesting in an outside form
with other people. To put it simply, to me a religion is the
organization of a set of spiritual values and/or experiences that is
collectively brought together.
What I *would* say is that agnosticism would be an internal, or
spiritual value. That is what you believe. You don't get together with
a whole raft of other people and believe it together on Sunday morning.
Like Druidry, I would call it a philosophy. You could conceivably be a
Buddhist agnostic or a Druidic Christian. In your case I would say you
are an Agnostic Jew. Your spirituality is agnostic, your religion is
Judasim. You are no less a Jew because you are agnostic, and you are no
less Agnostic because you are Jewish...
Does that clarify it?
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...Atheism is a non-prophet organization...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:250/1004)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 250/1004 1001 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Coridon Henshaw
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 14 Jan 96 16:32:00
EID:703b 202e8400
MSGID: 1:250/820 30f9300b
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30f66dc6
On Friday January 12 1996 at 09:18, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
PS> It's time to get a *real* computer and ditch this Packard Bell.
Now you know why PBs are called Packard Hells in the technical areas.
--- GoldED/2 2.42.G0615
* Origin: Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for VALUABLE PRIZES (1:250/820)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 250/820 501 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Coridon Henshaw
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: HUCKSTERS
|Date: 14 Jan 96 19:39:42
EID:b44d 202e9ce0
MSGID: 1:250/820 30f95cde
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 30f64b47
On Friday January 12 1996 at 11:51, David Worrell wrote to Robert Jackson:
DW> I wish Newtie would explain how they plan to save money with this
DW> scheme.
Newt is either too fucking stupid to figure out how to save money or he
wants to 'save' it for those who funded his campaign.
I guess one of the reasons he wants to cut back on economic statistics is
so no one can have any hard figures to accuse him of running the US economy
into the ground...
--- GoldED/2 2.42.G0615
* Origin: This god is dead! He moved! You pushed him! Is Not! (1:250/820)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
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|From: Pam Gray
|To: David Fono
|Sub: Re: Agnostic(ism?)
|Date: 15 Jan 96 13:39:26
EID:a807 202f6ce0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 08105cf4
David,
Whether anyone else believes is a moot point...
DF> Anyways, is agnosticism a religion or not? -Stubbs
It's what you think and believe in your own heart is which counts. People
don't have to agree with what you believe as long as they respect your beliefs
and you respect their beliefs.
Take care,
Pam
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Pam Gray
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 15 Jan 96 13:47:01
EID:243c 202f6de0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 08105cf5
Boni,
That's true as well... :)
BH> If you pluck them, if their root system is the least bit damaged they
BH> die...:(
For an abundent plant they sure are fragile.
BH> No, we never got caught and now my mother has a small patch of trilliums
BH> that the police look curiously at when passing her garden...:)
Are the police always looking at her garden????.... :)
BH> Pretty name! I know one in Brampton. She's a good friend and is a
BH> riotously funny lady, too...:)
Since I live in Brampton - can you tell me her name? I just might know
her!
:)
BH> It's not about belief, but about hiring someone based on their religion.
BH>
BH> People have the right to believe what they choose, but if they're in
a
BH> debate base, they need to realize that their belief system will be
BH> challanged. When people challange me, I like the way it makes me
BH> think...but some people can't handle that!
Granted... when the debate is one, anything can be questioned just as the
people themselves are not being flamed. One questions christianality, another
questions druidism and another yet again questions muslim and hindoism.
In
the end a healthy debate is always welcomed.
Short sightedness is rampant everything and that's a shame.
Take care,
Pam
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: All
|Sub: One God
|Date: 15 Jan 96 20:42:53
EID:5c3a 202fa540
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Greetings!
I would like to point out some good news, I found about God.
There is only One God, Not three!
Jesus is God! He dwelt amoung us in the Flesh!
Please follow along with some of these verses.
Isa. 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have
chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:
before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was
manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached
unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Colo. 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after
the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after
Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and
power:
Rev. 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which
is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Don't take my word for this, please read your own bible to find
out the truth!
Believe only in God's Word!
I am just writing what I found out to be true!
Brad Jackson
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Gods, not god
|Date: 15 Jan 96 22:15:51
EID:2359 202fb1e0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 088401dd
RB>CM> Gt> I worship the Earth. She exists and all we have comes from Her.
RB>CM>
RB>CM> Show your intelligence again, please. It's not very smart to worship
a
RB>CM> rock.
RB>I'm a Sun worshipper, myself. Ol' Sol is my personal savior.
Is that remark coming from a man who worships a male god that had his
own son tortured and murdered and then wants to say I'm his child?...:)
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ Why worship a god that violated a virgin's civil rights?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:250/1004)
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: talking critters
|Date: 15 Jan 96 22:15:52
EID:3b42 202fb1e0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 088401de
RB>MR> AH> Why do so many people have difficulty believing that a serpent
spo
RB>MR> AH> Talking animals are nothing special. Remember, a wolf spoke
to Re
RB>MR> AH> Riding Hood, another wolf conversed with three pigs, bears talked,
RB>MR> AH> etc. These occurences are documented in books, which therefore
pr
RB>MR> AH> these events actually happened.
RB>MR>
RB>MR> (shaking head from side to side). Alan, before the heathens and pagans
RB>MR> to you....Little Red Riding Hood, The Three Bears, and The Three
Little
RB>MR> FICTION. You can write absolutely anything in fiction and NO ONE
expec
RB>MR> be true. OUR
RB>MR> premise, on the other hand, is that the BIBLE is true. Please don't
put
RB>MR> in the same light as the Bible. It's apples and oranges.
RB>(shaking head vigorously in a counterclockwise direction)
RB>Maria, I now understand your choice to become a Christian. You
RB>have such a keen grasp of literary intent.
Well we Natives have been talking to the animals for a few thousand
years, but I wasn't aware that the Christians had ever caught the
knack...:)
BTW: I've been reading your replies and getting a real hoot!
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...American Thuggee Militia--Kali Wants YOU!...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: I'M BACK
|Date: 15 Jan 96 22:15:53
EID:7de9 202fb1e0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 088401df
LB> LC> I've been threatened physically before, and called a "Devil
LB> LC> worshipping Atheist", what ever that may meen.But OF COURSE, their
LB> LC> nice to fuzzy bunny Wiccans.
LB>Devil worshipping Atheist??! LOL!
LB>Now THAT's an oxymoron.
LB>However, if you know of some true fundies that are nice to "fuzzy bunny
LB>Wiccans", you know a better class of fundy than I've met -- and a much
LB>shallower class of Wiccan if you seriously called them fuzzy bunny. ;)
I try not to be intolerant but sooner or later, the fundies get to
p*ssing us ALL off...
One of the reasons I *moved* was because the fundie born again
fruitbats in the neighbourhood would gather outside my door every few
Sundays preaching hellfire and damnation at the top of their freaking
lungs because my husband is a Druid and I'm Native...Who wants to listen
to these tone-deaf wahoos screeching like cats in heat, "The Old Rugged
Cross" like they think they're bloody Mormon Tabernacle Choir? Finally,
just before we moved, I lost my cool, targeted the ringleader right on
the street in front of all his cronies and screamed, "Listen asshole!
We didn't ask you to come here and fuck up our country with YOUR
religion and if ya don't want to respect my right to the religion of
the land--namely MINE--GET THE FUCK *OFF* MY LAND!!!". Needless to say,
the ones I met on our street after were totally embarrassed...I however,
was finally glad I didn't take it anymore...
LB>Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
LB>... DOSSHELL? Of course DOS is hell.
LB>--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
LB> * Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...Bring back the snakes--Ireland was better off Pagan!..
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Todd Andlar
|To: All
|Sub: off-topic totally
|Date: 16 Jan 96 00:07:19
EID:46f2 203000e0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 088401e0
yeah this is totally off-topic... but it doesn't seem like anybody is
getting the msgs being sent from this brd... can we get a confirmation of
some
sort?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:24:44
EID:509d 20310300
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 30fd633b
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Scot Bear <=-
JB> Second rarest blood type there is. My grandfather is really in
JB> trouble if he needs blood. He's AB-. Not a lot of that around.
Hi!
He really would not be in that much trouble. AB neg people can get
any Rh negative blood in an emergency...it does not have to be just AB
neg to be ok (though AB neg is proferred). In fact, if he ever develops
any antibodies other than ABO or Rh antibodies, there is a good chance
that he would have to get another ABO type just to make sure it is
negative for the other stuff.
Sue
... You can trust me. I'm not a doctor.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ABORTION CONTRAST
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:50:54
EID:70e2 20310640
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 30fd633c
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Marilyn Burge <=-
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Judith Bandsma <=-
MB> I have to wonder if the mother threw her out because she didn't
MB> want the poor little girl around her husband, tempting him even
MB> more.
JB> My next thought was why they didn't just get this kid to a clinic.
JB> Giving birth is going to be SO dangerous for her. But then, the kid
JB> probably had no idea of what was happening, and I don't think pregnancy
JB> would be my first guess for an 11 year old (if she was even 11 when
she
JB> first GOT pregnant) so the condition probably wasn't even guessed at
JB> until it was too late.
At 11, there is a fair chance that she only recently started having
periods, if she even had one before becoming pregnant. It would have
been very hard, even if she knew to look, to have recognized a "missed"
period.
There is also the fact that at age 11, many states would have
required notification of the parents before doing an abortion (if she
would have chosen that option). Considering that her parents threw her
out of the house for being pregnant, there is no telling what they would
have done if they found out that she was thinking of an abortion.
I would like to see child abuse laws implemented against those
parents. What they did is criminal IMO.
Sue
... Just when you find out life's a bitch, it has puppies.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Christian Miller
|Sub: Fundy Follies!
|Date: 17 Jan 96 02:00:35
EID:989c 20311000
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 30fd633d
REPLY: 1:3603/800@fidonet.org 900f98a2
-=> Quoting Christian Miller to Robert Jackson <=-
CM> This is all you underfundies ever have to say. You will never learn
CM> that in order to change one's mind, no matter which way, the one
CM> trying to do the "changing" needs to make the other believe in the
CM> same. Therefore, you need to convince me that God does not exist.
CM> (Since you apparently don't want me to believe that He does.
What YOU fail to realize is that the requests for evidence and
pointing out obvious discrepancies does serve a purpose. If you actually
stopped to think about the requests (vs what you are doing with them at
the moment) you might just see the loopholes in your religious viewpoint.
If you see the holes, you might actually drop your mantle of belief and
look at the situation objectively. At that stage, you may or may not
be convinced about the non-existence of "God".
This presumes that you can think, of course, and that you are
willing to give it a try.
But then again, as Susie in Calvin and Hobbes so aptly said, "...and as
long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony."
Sue
... Quick! Close your mind! Something blasphemous might get in.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: THUMB-SUCKING FUNDY
|Date: 16 Jan 96 18:56:00
EID:4008 20309700
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
JB> I don't see a _direct_ correlation between the push needed and the
JB> time the item remains balanced.... Sure, in _general_, the tinier
the
JB> push needed, the more likely the collapse of balance soon, but I don't
JB> see that this is an inviolate _Rule_, nor that a larger push, "held"
JB> in balance at the end of a chain of chaotic sequence, at the start
of
JB> which is a single quantum adjustment, need necessarily be
JB> "microseconds."
JB> After all, unless there are "purely material" forces driving the
JB> system one way or the other (my above point), why would it _ever_
JB> break over and fall without the single quantum adjustment?
I'm thinking of something so delicately balanced that the slightest
force would trigger it; air currents, an ant sneezing, a hard look,
etc. The chances of one such happening are so large that a quantum push
would not come sooner.
Similar to the "trigger" concept in earthquake prediction. Someone
is always proposing planetary alignments as a trigger. But the force
is so small that unless the quake was imminent, pulling the trigger
would have no effect.
JB> Consider, for extremist exampling, the case of a near-broken
JB> stalactite in an underground cave, with only the slowest of drips as
JB> an external force: that'd thinkably result in minutes, if not hours
or
JB> days, of 'quantum probabilistic adjustability.' Microseconds are not
JB> necessarily linked directly, as you seem to imply....
Not directly, no, just in a probabilistic sense.
... He's got Blue Wave fever and it's spreading through the message bases!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:05:00
EID:b814 2030b8a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 30fc7a00
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 30f955e5
Sunday January 14 1996 04:00, Lynda Bustilloz mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
LB>>> (jaw dropping to the floor) Ken, I can state positively that the
LB>>> earth moves -- around the sun. The rest of the galaxy is also in
LB>>> motion, and the earth is moving right along with it.
KM>>> Think about it Lynda, how could you really tell? If everything wa
KM>>> moving around the earth, it would appear that we were moving. (Ev
KM>>> watch a train for a while?)
LB>> Ever been IN a train for a while? It looks like everything is mov
LB>> you are stationary. Does that make it so?
KM>> Yup, traveling by train is one of my favorites. You can be in the train
KM>> and it appears that everything else is moving. You can be outside the
t
KM>> watching it and get the feeling that you are moving instead of the
trai
KM>> So how can we besure that we aren't watching the universe go by, instea
KM>> us moving with it?
LB> Because it would have to be going at an INCREDIBLE speed if that were
the
LB> case -- because that would mean the entire universe were revolving around
LB> us in a one day span. (Go outside, and spend the night watching the
Big
LB> Dipper -- it'll turn around in a full circle for you, along with all
the
LB> rest of the stars.)
Remember this is done by God who can do anything, incredible speeds would
not be impossible for him would it? The only thing that makes it seem impossible
to us, is our inability to comprehend a star or planet moving at that speed.
It's impossible by what we consider the laws of physics, but as I pointed
out earlier, if God is who the Bible says he is, and he can indeed do anything,
this would not be impossible for him, whether we could believe the speeds
or not. BTW spent many a night camping under the stars and watching them
do just that.....
LB> Truly, Ken -- people have been coming up with explanations for all this
LB> since the beginning of time, including plotting elaborate diagrams for
LB> their explanations. The trouble is, none of them WORK, unless you
LB> acknowledge that the Earth is NOT stationary.
None of them work because we cannot explain it by what we know of physics,
but, if God can do anything, that changes things doesn't it?
LB>> Are you saying you *really* think the sun rises and sets and we st
LB>> still? Could you explain the seasons to me, please?
KM>> If God made the earth stand still and the universe rotate around it,
it
KM>> would be easy for him to alter the course of the universe so that the
s
KM>> hits a different section of the earth for a different length of time
to
KM>> create the different seasons.
LB> Sounds like an incredible game of crack the whip to me. If the sun
were
LB> going fast enough to sweep around in orbit around the earth, you wouldn't
LB> see it as a sphere, because it'd be going faster than light.
But then your explaining that by what you know of physics, not by what God
can do.
LB> Could you draw me a diagram proposing YOUR view of our solar system?
Don't need to, I'll except what is explained in the Bible. Even if I cannot
believe it by what little I know of physics, that doesn't mean that God
can't do it. I can't believe that the universe goes on forever either, but
I can except that. Of course the scary thought would be, if the universe
did have and ending, what would be there?
LB>> Ken, I realize that you get a hard time in here because of your fa
LB>> but has it really so completely blinded you to simple fact? Why t
LB>> voluntary lobotomy?
KM>> No, I do not have a hard time in here because of my faith. Others have
LB> Whups -- reading comprehension. I didn't say HAVE a hard time, I said
GET
LB> a hard time.
Woops! your right you did say get a hard time. (But then Christ did say
that since they persecuted him, that we would be persecuted as well just
for following him, so there's really no big surprise is there?)
KM>> hard with my faith, not me. Completely blinded me to simple fact? No,
t
KM>> me if there is a God would anything be impossible?
LB> I think it would be tremendously silly to think that God would completely
LB> turn his back on the laws of gravity, lightspeed and everything else
LB> (which he created) just so we could be the center of the universe.
Does
LB> he really need to feed our petty egos so much that he would do that?
What your forgetting is that if there is a God, he MADE the laws of gravity,
lightspeed and everything else. What we understand the laws of gravity,
lightspeed and everything else is only our comprehension of it. And there
is no guarantee that we have it correct is there? I really don't care whether
the earth stays in one spot or not, I don't see how it could effect our
egos. Well, there are some that would get a power trip out of it. (Hey Wow
moon people, did you know that the universe rotates around the earth? 8-))
)
LB> Why does the earth being the center of the universe have any bearing
on
LB> your faith?
It doesn't really, the point was brought up to me. Someone asked if I really
thought the universe rotated around the earth as the Bible says. (Earth
is the center), and I said very simply if the Bible says so, yes, not that
it has any bearing on my faith, but rather that I would believe it because
of my faith. I have faith that God can do anything, therefore I believe
that it would not be an impossible task for him. (However understand that
I am not familiar with the Bible saying that, but whether it says it or
not, and whether it is taken within context or out of context is not the
point I wanted to make. The point is, since I have faith in God, I have
faith that he can do anything, so why would I not have faith about it? Hey,
here's something that might shock you, I would be worried if I didn't have
some doubts about the Bible, but I put away those doubts and say, well,
God can do anything, he says it has to be this way or that, so that is the
way it is. Is that blind faith? Probly, but I would rather have blind faith
then try to claim what can be valid or invalid. I feel I am going to heaven
because of my faith, even if I am wrong, what harm have I done? I've been
true to myself for following what I believe in, to live otherwise would
be living my life as a lie.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:25:01
EID:bafd 2030bb20
MSGID: 1:271/460 30fc7c7f
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c526460f
Saturday January 13 1996 22:08, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled to Kenneth
Mcabee:
KM>> And exactly when have I done that? I have never laugh at other people
of
KM>> believing other things.
KM>> I met a guy last night and invited him to church. He looked at me and
KM>> said with a sneer "Church" I said yes, church. He said with a sneer
"I
KM>> don't believe what Christians believe." Then he spit on the ground.
I
KM>> asked him what he did believe. With a sneer again he said "Islam".
I
KM>> told him fine, I wasn't out to take anyone away from thier own beliefs,
KM>> and I walked away. He started laughing... This guy wasn't willing to
KM>> talk, I didn't push it. I didn't laugh at him about it.
KW> I do wonder what his point of view of this encounter would be.
That would be interesting to know.....
KM>> I've met others that believed in different things as well, if they
KM>> wanted to talk we talked, but I've never laughed at them for it. If
I've
KM>> said anything about Winter Solstice I never meant it to "disenfranchise
KM>> and ridicule". I don't ever remember talking to anyone about it. How
KM>> could I ridicule it when I'm not even sure what it is? So, are you
KM>> 'false christian scum'?
KM>> You been talking to Steve Winter? 8-)
KW> Kenneth I would take you a whole lot seriously in your protestations
if
KW> you didn't also say things like this:
km>>> You wouldn't know the truth if you fell over it, but don't
km>>> fear, one day everyone will know the truth.....
KW> Is this attitude why your acquaintance laughed?
Exactly who was this attitude given to? I noticed that you didn't post what
lead up to this statement.
KW> "Karl,
KW> Was wondering how long it would take someone to ask me that. Yes
I am
KW> a Christian, and my actions prove that I am a Christian. I've said many
KW> times that there is a difference between a Christian and someone that
KW> claims to be one. I claimed to be one for years, but I was wrong, today
I
KW> live as a Christian. Today, I try to live as Christ lived and I try
to
KW> follow what he taught us to do. If someone claiming themselves to be
a
KW> Christian, killed someone that claimed the earth was round, then are
they
KW> living as Christ lived? Are they living as Christ lived or taught? No,
KW> then they might have salvation, but they are not a Christian.Kenneth
KW> Mcabee"
KW> You are certainly judgmental. Have you ever wonder what will happen
if
KW> you're wrong, and all those that you judge to be 'not christian' by
your
KW> lights are right?
I don't feel that I am judging anyone. I will look at what they say and
compare it to the what the Bible says. To be a Christian means to be more
Christ like, to live as close to the way that Christ lived as we can. To
do as he did while he was here. Tell me did he kill Jews and have experiments
done on them just because they were Jewish? Did he tell all the husbands
that they had no right to have sex with thier wives because that was his
job? Also that it was ok for him to have sex with thier young girls as well?
Did he teach them to drink poison koolaid to prove thier faithfulness to
him?
What will happen if I am wrong? Maybe some here should investigate and find
out just what the word Christian came from, who was originally called a
Christian? I met a girl a couple of months ago that beleives that anyone
born in the United States, no matter what they beleive, is a Christian.
If I am judging then I will be judged by the same way that I judge those
that call themselves Christians. I will be judged by the Bible, and that
I will gladly accept.
Kenneth Mcabee
KW> -+- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
KW> + Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes
KW> (1:381/123)
Katherine,
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Judgement
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:35:02
EID:6baa 2030bc60
MSGID: 1:271/460 30fc7ca0
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 30fab964
Monday January 15 1996 20:30, Gwenny the Pooh mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>>> Keep on, there's a being named Lucifer that might be interested
KM>>>> in what you saying. But he too one day will bow his knees before
KM>>>> God and declare that Christ is LORD.
AH>>> Sorry, your Jesus has to wait in a long line behind Zeus, Apollo,
and
AH>>> loads of other Supreme Beings that were invented before your Jesus
AH>>> was.
KM>> Sorry Alan, but Jesus was the one that created everything.
GtP> And your evidence for this is.....
Gwenny,
The Bible.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Austin Ziegler
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: Assistance Requested: FotF
|Date: 16 Jan 96 10:09:36
EID:4320 20305120
MSGID: 1:376/32.0 30fbbfb0
REPLY: 1:280/26 2d0aa864
AZ>I'm arguing the abortion topic with a fundie on another sub, and he
RM> What's a fundie?
Someone who has no facts to support their belief system. Like, say, most
of the Christians on this echo. Typically, they attempt to use publications
by people such as Focus on the Family who claim to have no bias but are
incredibly biased in one direction or another -- and as such tend to distort
their facts.
AZ> "The First Three Months" (or "The First Ninety Days", I'm not sur
AZ>published by Focus on the Family. Any information about FotF and th
AZ>bias on issues would be appreciated (yes, Gwenny, I'm looking for i
AZ>from you (-:
RM> Maybe it would be better if you read their material and
RM> then followed up with their references and see if they
RM> are right for yourself... Sure is a lot better then
RM> believing hear-say.
If I could find their material around here, I'd read it. Personally, I'd
rather do many other things than read lies and such, but I also asked for
direct information from someone who has been negatively affected by FotF's
fundies.
RM> in the service for HIS Service
So, what does the acronym HIS stand for?
Harlots In Suede?
-f
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Just take out the cork.
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:39:38
EID:93aa 2031b4e0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 0fdc13b0
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Asmodeus wrote in a message to J.J. Hitt:
A> Pagan. You are incorrect in assuming this. I do not use drugs, as
A> they are truly harmful and I do not wish to harm that which I love
Did you know that if you drink a beer, drink some coffee, eat some food,
take some antibiotics, or drink some herbal tea you've done drugs?
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:43:17
EID:311c 2031b560
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 0fdc13b1
REPLY: 1:280/26 31034c45
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Richard Morrison wrote in a message to Preston Simpson:
RM> Here we have just another one of hundreds of displays where the
RM> questions are avoided with other questions that don't answer the
RM> first one.
You would know this, considering you are a pro at it.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: White-lighter Religio
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:44:40
EID:8d60 2031b580
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 0fdc13b2
REPLY: 1:280/26 31034c12
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Richard Morrison wrote in a message to Asmodeus:
RM> What about salvation?
It's overrated.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:48:28
EID:b0c2 2031b600
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 0fdc13b3
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 30fc1b4f
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Andrew Masten wrote in a message to Katherine Wintersnight:
AM> You believe tarot cards divine the future. Whats so
AM> unbelievable about a world wide deluge. 70 percent of the earth is
AM> still covered with water. Melt the ice caps and it goes up another
AM> 15 +/-.
That would still not be enough to cover everything with water. To do that,
you'd need extra hydrospheres.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: White-lighter Religio
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:50:39
EID:6eaf 2031b640
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 0fdc13b4
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 34d46e7a
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Katherine Wintersnight wrote in a message to Asmodeus:
A>very simple, quick way, to those who recognize its meaning. Besides, by
A>posting as Thomas Jones I would be like everyone else, and I prefer to
be
A>unique.
KW> If you prefer to be unique then why do you walk in here babbling
KW> the same old shit we get from every third bored, frustrated
KW> teenager?
Oh, he's unique -- just like everyone else.
---
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Dan A. Post
|Sub: New Age Pagans
|Date: 17 Jan 96 06:21:05
EID:8f58 203132a0
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 23eb9ecf
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAN A. to JESSE JONES on 01-13-96
DA>Jesse, unfortunately, I must disagree. Indeed there are a great
DA>number of organizations involving such beliefs as Wicca, and those
DA>sorts of 'new age' earth religions. One of the things that makes
DA>them so dangerous is the fact that they are very sublime and are not
DA>as much in the open as perhaps Christians should make them. The
DA>other thing that makes them dangerous is the fact that many of them
DA>pretend to be Christian when indeed they are a cross breed between
DA>paganism and Christianity (ie all the talk of angels as of late can
DA>be dangerous).
DA>I have a personal friend who was involved in Wicca to a large extent
DA>for quite some time. Even to the point of entering into its majickal
DA>realm.
Dan, the closest I have to personal knowledge of such people or
groups is here in this Conference. So I am in no position to argue
those particulars.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 01/16/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319
God is our refuge and strength... - Psalm 46:1
---
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Flaming asshole
|Date: 17 Jan 96 06:21:08
EID:bff2 203132a0
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 23eb9ed0
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting ROBERT JACKSON to JESSE JONES on 01-13-96
RJ> RJ> JJ> Such school yard taunts impress no one but yourself.
RJ> RJ> Funny how you seem to reply only to nothing but those.
RJ> RJ> An in-depth logical argument either seems to make you run
RJ> RJ> away in cowardice, or you lack the intelligence to
RJ> RJ> understand it. Which is it?
RJ>
RJ> JJ> Show me an in-depth logical argument and I will be happy to
RJ> JJ> respond to it.
RJ>
RJ> Don't even begin to think you're funny, you ineffectual,
RJ> faithmongering, truthdodging coward. Run back to your little
RJ> hole in the cupboard and don't come out again until they
RJ> turn off the light.
I gather, then, that contrary to your original taunt, you are
incapable or unwilling (or both) to show me an in-depth logical
argument.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 01/16/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319
Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding.
---
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Baking bread
|Date: 17 Jan 96 06:21:10
EID:774c 203132a0
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 23eb9ed1
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAN CEPPA to GWENNY THE on 01-14-96
DC>-> On 01-12-96 12:30, Gwenny The Pooh got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>
DC> DC>> Did you ever get the info on high altitude baking that I
DC>
DC> GTP> <>
DC>
DC> GTP> Got it! Thanks!
DC>
DC>
DC>No problem... Please let me know if that helps or if you need
DC>any additional information.
DC>
DC>(Jesse, note: That post to Gwenny is a "Good Work!)
And the world is a better place for it, Dan. Did it wear you out?
Strain your financial resources?
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 01/16/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319
Too much month left at the end of the money
---
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Re: Charles Rollins, chi
|Date: 16 Jan 96 07:57:00
EID:0c51 20303f20
Dan Ceppa to Larry Sites on 01-14-96 14:09 re: Re: Charles Rollins, chi
DC>I don't remember him... Then again, most all fundys sound the
DC>same when you get that hollow echo from beating them on the head.
Over the years, I, unlike these dumbfucks, have taken the time to actually
research SEVERAL of the major creationists lies. After going to the
library, etc and making copies of the references, I tend to remember those
specific subjects. When I see some nubee post the same old crap that I have
proved to myself is wrong, I challenge them and start an archive. As it
grows unaddressed, I tend to raise my level of invective to them. If they
would honestly discuss the lies they are propagating, I'm actually fairly
corduial. I researched several subjects with Ken Weins on BioGenesis some
time back. Him I respect cause he would think about and discuss the claims
he was paroting. As a result of our dicussion about the ICR's young earth
claims, he actually gave up his young earth beliefs. On of the things we
discussed was Morris' _Biblical Basis for Science_ where Morris quoted some
geologist out of context about the majority of the earth surface being
ocean sediment. Unfortuantly it included the statement that the majority
of
such deposits were 40,000 feet thick and happened in a SHALLOW sea. Neither
Ken or Charles, who was unforunate enough to use the same quote here, could
explain how such a deposit could occur in a year as 40,000 feet would
hardly be a SHALLOW sea to start with. EVERY such creationist claim _I'VE_
researched is either a gross misrepresentation or an outright lie. They
are
all stored on my hard drive, thought I am losing interest in doing the work
to document new ones. Out of all the creationists I've encountered, only
2
have been honest enough to research and think about such things and then
they still held fast to their superstition. I've become more harsh with
fundis as a result, these deluded dumbfucks aren't going to change their
beliefs even if the records to definatly disprove them were dug up. I think
it's time we take their tack and go for the children. If religion is shown
for the child abuse it is, maybe there will be fewer people infected and
this disease will die out over time.
BTW, we just rented the movie, _Priest_. Have you seen it? I see why the
fundis don't like it. It exposed the abuses such ritural superstition
create and condon rather than disreguard their dumbfuck rules.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Women do come with instructions; ask them.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Re: ARK nut
|Date: 16 Jan 96 09:34:00
EID:033d 20304c40
Michael Hardy to Larry Sites on 01-12-96 22:59 re: Re: ARK nut
-=> Quoting Larry Sites to Charles Rollins <=-
CR>I took this echo off my bbs for the juvenile way and juvenile langu
CR>being used and I thought I'd come back in and see if anyone on here
CR>up but apparently not. Maybe if I come back on in another few mont
CR>one or two here may grow up and learn to be more adult in choosing
CR>language more wisely.
LS> No DUMBFUCK, you ran away like a typical christian chickenshit cau
LS> you could not support the fucking lies you told in the name of yo
LS> gawd, and you didn't want any of your deluded users to see that
LS> hurtfull truth. Fuck you and the Wholly Babble you rode in on!
MH> Illustrating the truth of Charles' point?
MH> You juvenile loser. Grow up.
Oh, boo hoo. Did I hurt the poor christian with my words? What a baby he
must be to let mere words have such power over him. Lest you forget,
Michael, this is not just a mere pissing match. This TYPICAL dumbfuck
christian earned the words I used with his continual TYPICAL christian
lying for your superstition. Below are some of the lies he has told. Rather
than being held accountable for them, he tries to hide by shifting the
focus to my words. Get a fucking clue, Michael, if he had fact one, you
can
bet your eternal ass he would post it and gloat over showing this supposed
"loser" how wrong I am. Would YOU care to defend these FUCKING LIES of his:
Area # 233 HOLYSMOKE 08-17-95 20:57 Message # 5
From : LARRY SITES
To : ALL RCVD
Subj : Charles Rollins: chicken
Charles Rollins to Joanna Amren on 08-14-95 17:54 re: Dust
CR>Tell you what, let's wipe the dust off our feet of this echo. I've met
CR>people like these for many years and all they want is to argue..they
CR>don't want to learn..let's leave them to God and let Him do what he
CR>wants with the seed we have sown..he said if they will not hear the
CR>testimony to wipe the dust off our feet so I for one am doing that..the
CR>are so narrow minded and so blinded by Satan they cannot realize it..
Typical christian. Blow assertations out the ass and then run off rather
than face their debunking. C H I C K E N S H I T! You'd think that if
one
of these fundi fools actually had the goods they would stick around and
totally blow away the unbelievers rather than leaving their fellow
believers to question if they really had ANYTHING AT ALL. I wonder why.
Why, if he has factual evidence that 40,000 feet of SHALLOW water deposits
were laid done in a SINGLE YEAR, doesn't he post them and BLOW AWAY
evolutionary geology?
Why, if he has factual evidence that "carbon dating" erronously reported
HIS OWN TOOTH as being MILLIONS of years old, doesn't he post it and BLOW
AWAY evolutionary dating methods?
Why, if he has factual evidence that the "receptus" family of biblical
manuscripts are more accurate or older than others, doesn't he post it and
BLOW AWAY my claims to the contrary?
Why, if he has factual evidence, doesn't he STRENGTHEN his fellow believers
in their faith, BY POSTING IT? We ALL KNOW WHY. He ain't got shit for
anything but brains! All those "seeds" he claims to have planted here are
nothing but CHICKEN DROPPINGS. Too bad his fellow believers will be left
to
clean it up.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * It takes a long time to understand nothing.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 16 Jan 96 09:42:00
EID:2cca 20304d40
Michael Hardy to Larry Sites on 01-14-96 18:27 re: CHRISTOLOGY
-=> Quoting Larry Sites to Michael Hardy <=-
LS> Why did Eusebius write a chapter on how to lie for god? Why did yo
LS> superstition accept it being ok to lie for god? The simplest
LS> explaination is that they needed to or do you have an even better
LS> reason why it is ok to lie for your god?
MH> So far, all I have is your word and FIC's word that E. wrote any such
MH> thing, and I consider neither of you to be a reliable source. I'll
MH> believe it when my independent research confirms it. I deny that
MH> Christianity has ever, in the main, thought it acceptable to lie for
MH> God.
MH> Which Eusebius are you talking about, by the way? There were two of
MH> them active in the church at about the same time.
From _Forgery_:
Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, the great "Father of Church
History" (324 A.D.) whom Niebuhr terms "a very dishonest writer,"
-- of which we shall see many notable instances, -- says this: "But
it is not our place to describe the sad misfortunes which finally
came upon [the Christians], as we do not think it proper, moreover,
to, record their divisions and unnatural conduct to each other
before the persecution -- [by Diocletian, 305 A.D.]. Wherefore we
have decided to relate nothing concerning them except things in
which we can vindicate the Divine judgment. ... But we shall
introduce into this history in general only those events which may
be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."
(Ecclesiastical History, viii, 2; N&PNF. i, 323-324.)
Eusebius himself fraudulently "subscribed to the [Trinitarian]
Creed formed by the Council of Nicra, but making no secret, in the
letter which he wrote to his own Church, of the non-natural sense
in which he accepted it." (Cath. Encyc. v, 619.) As St. Jerome
says, "Eusebius is the most open champion of the Arian heresy,"
which denies the Trinity. (Jerome, Epist. 84, 2; N&PNF. vi, 176.)
Bishop Eusebius, as we shall see, was one of the most prolific
forgers and liars of his age of the Church, and a great romancer;
in his hair-raising histories of the holy Martyrs, he assures us
"that on some occasions the bodies of the martyrs who had been
devoured by wild beasts, upon the beasts being strangled, were
found alive in their stomachs, even after having been fully
digested"! (quoted, Gibbon, History, Ch. 37; Lardner, iv, p. 91;
Diegesis, p. 272). To such an extent had the "pious frauds of the
theologians been thus early systematized and raised to the dignity
of a regular doctrine," that Bishop Eusebius, "in one of the most
learned and elaborate works that antiquity has left us, the Thirty-
second Chapter of the Twelfth Book of his Evangelical Preparation,
bears for its title this scandalous proposition: 'How it may be
Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the
Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived'" -- (quoting the Greek
title; Gibbon, Vindication, p. 76).
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot Universe ? (Y/N/Q)
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Larry Sites
|Date: 16 Jan 96 09:55:00
EID:72ea 20304ee0
Michael Hardy to All on 01-13-96 23:55 re: Larry Sites
-=> Quoting Larry Sites to Maria Russell <=-
LS> Make you feel good, cunt? How come the dick that's your head isn't
LS> here instead of you?
MH> To all non-Christians: He's one of yours.
And your point is? You have problem with MY choice of words to describe
HER
self-professed position in life. A position that she quotes YOUR
superstitions Wholly Babble in defense of. Are you really such a prude that
you can't understand that HER ACCEPTANCE of such a position is JUST AS
OFFENSIVE to some as the words used to describe it to others?
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
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___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * God is complex; has a Real part, and an Imaginary part.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Conference Guidelines
|Date: 16 Jan 96 09:57:00
EID:e81f 20304f20
Dan Ceppa to Les Wilcox on 01-14-96 03:33 re: Conference Guidelines
LW> Grow up! I've already explained that this program doesn't have
LW> a 30 day limitation from the author. You worry about registering
LW> * WaveRdr 1.0 [NR] * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COP
DC>Are you done evaluating it? Or are you too stupid to understand
DC>the concept?
No, he's just ANOTHER TYPICAL christian hypocrite. He's had it for OVER
a
YEAR, since he first lied to me about jesus.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
Freq FORGERY.ZIP, Falisfy Fundi father fakery
___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * A sufficiently advanced person will appear to be god.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Messiah Gate 7
|Date: 16 Jan 96 10:12:00
EID:4454 20305180
Here's another reference for you to check out since you wrongly believe
that your superstition never approved lying:
Origen, an early church father who was one of the first to obtain to some
education, wrote a defense of Christian
claims. In Origen's systematic treatment of inspiration and exegesis, he
tells us that where spiritual truths did not
correspond to historical events, " the scripture wove into the historical
narrative what did not take place at some
points what cannot take place and at others what can take place but did
not." (De principiis 4, 2, 9; cited by Grant, p.66; Eliade, p. 166.)
The above taken from the WWW page: MessiahGate
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* WR 1.31 # 398 * A sufficiently advanced person will appear to be god.
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: GLEN ZILLY
|Sub: Farewell To Holysmoke
|Date: 16 Jan 96 10:31:00
EID:3263 203053e0
Glen Zilly to All on 01-13-96 15:40 re: Farewell To Holysmoke
GZ> Due to the removal of this forum from my current board becuase
GZ>of its use of profanity and other unnaceptable language I will no
GZ>longer be posting on the Holysmoke forum.
This "other unnaceptable language" wouldn't be the hurtfull truth about
your deluded superstition would it? Feighing offense at "profanity" is just
an excuse to run away, you chicken shit. Hell, I'm just as offended at your
"Word" as you can be at any "profane words" but that doesn't stop me from
discussing it.
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___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * The hardest head is invariably an empty one.
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 16 Jan 96 10:39:00
EID:09d0 203054e0
Sue Armstrong to Judith Bandsma on 01-14-96 09:20 re: FOF
JB> Things that will NOT lose your account...calling someone a 'godles
JB> heathen', 'hell-bound sinner' or 'atheist bastard'. Usually undese
JB> as anyone who would utter something that WOULD deserve such a reto
JB> has already been booted...not JUST out of the forum, but off the
JB> service completely.
SA>I hear something similar has gone/is going down on Compuserve. Any
SA>verification of such a rumour?
They cut internet access for all subscribers WORLDWIDE to around 200 usnet
conferences devoted to sex because some prude judge in Germany threatened
to fine them for providing pornography.
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___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Jesus saves, Moses invests, Bagwhan spends & Mongol horde
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: trust
|Date: 16 Jan 96 10:49:00
EID:eece 20305620
Michael Hardy to Martin Goldberg on 01-14-96 00:19 re: trust
MG> The bible is full of physcial impossibilities. the flood is only
MG> example. You know the litany of the rest of them. do you serious
MG> believe that a book that contains a story like that of the ark can
MG> believed in anything.
MH> Why not? The Bible is not a book, but a collection 66 books. The flood
MH> is one story in one book. Assuming that the flood story is completely
MH> false -- not even true as a metaphor or parable -- your statement is
MH> akin to saying that because a library has books by Velikovsky, you
MH> can't trust the books by Hawking.
The librarian doesn't claim that it's "all true" like the liars that put
your Wholly Babble together did. Do you believe all liars or just christian
ones?
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___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * ICR: Ignorant Creationist Rantings.
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Re: YHWH
|Date: 16 Jan 96 11:01:00
EID:cf5e 20305820
Michael Hardy to Luke Clark on 01-14-96 18:20 re: Re: YHWH
MH> God's perspective is eternal, while ours is temporal. If truly innocen
MH> people die as a result of his judgment -- or for any other reason --
MH> they spend eternity in heaven. What's wrong with that? Your question
MH> carries with it the implication that death is The End; but with God,
MH> that's not true at all.
It is just such dumbfuck logic that has been the source of most human
savagery. I take it, you would be happy to take part in MayLai type
massacres if you believed that your bloodthirsty god desired it?
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___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Sacrilege: "telling an idiot the truth".
--- FMailX/386 1.0g
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: SEAN MCCULLOUGH
|Sub:
|Date: 16 Jan 96 11:17:00
EID:2b56 20305a20
Sean McCullough to Dave Ray on 01-13-96 22:11 re:
SM>See: Rev. Dr. C.F. Potter's __The Lost Years of Jesus Revealed__,
SM>ISBN 0-449-13039-8, Fawcett/Ballantyne NYC, 1958-1992. This is an accou
SM>by a major Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, of where/how Jesus spent the
SM>"invisible" years, those between 12 and his late twenties.
I would be slightly wary of this author. I have this and one other of his
books. He is TOTALLY absorbed with the idea that jesus was an Essene and
the part the book of Enoch played in their theology. On page 98, he makes
the claim that Enoch was dropped from 1 Peter 3:19 thus making it jesus
that went to hell to redeem the damned. I have not been able to confirm
what, if any, ancient manuscripts support this thought it is still possible
that it is based on the book of Enoch rather than an act of jesus.
Larry Sites Fuck AOL/Focus on the Family
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___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * Visualize whirled peas. Peas on Earth.
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|From: LARRY SITES
|To: KEVIN D. MCKENZIE
|Sub: Acts of god....
|Date: 16 Jan 96 11:25:00
EID:92e6 20305b20
Kevin D. Mckenzie to Richard Morrison on 01-14-96 13:11 re: Acts of god....
RM>KD>Doing a search for "beetle" would most likely
RM>KD>yield over a thousand books
RM>
RM>Looking this up with Yahoo....?
KD>No, didn't try that. I'll do that now. Only got three results: one
o
KD>Volkswagon bugs, one on cleaning bones with beetles, and a music
KD>company.
Some of his post come from:
www.Christian.Answers.net
Check it out for an assortment of debunked misunderstandings and outright
lies. His carbon misdating file is there along with a lie about Darwin
fearing the truth about eye complexity. Anyone that reads the next sentance
in _Origin of Species_ can see how they twisted his words.
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___
* WR 1.31 # 398 * If you don't make waves, you're not underway yet.
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 16 Jan 96 22:03:38
EID:db54 2030b060
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2a7
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8904479E
JS> before she began her current 'let's suck up to the atheist blasphemers
JS> just to be accepted' routine. She has shown in the past to be a nice
JS> person, though there is less evidence of that of late...
RJ> Within two weeks of your debut here, I knew this sort of thing
RJ> would become common. I'm merely surprised it took them this
RJ> long.
MH> I'm surprised -- no, not really -- that you turn one person's
MH> criticism into "common."
I guess you're right. Though Maria has also brought up the
same comment, she doesn't exactly count--she's more like
Jimbo's echo chamber. Let's see...Christian also has jumped
on the "Lynda's Not A Real True Christian " bandwagon as
well. I'm sure there've been a couple of others--anyone out
there have a few names come to mind?
... Du ekelhafter Ausfluss einer syphilitischen Kamelvotze.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Christian
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:50:16
EID:30af 2031b640
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2a9
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 890447AF
MH> I'm not going to get involved in this argument, other than to note
MH> that Jesus himself taught a gospel of hell and damnation for some
MH> people. Certainly his emphasis was on God's mercy and grace, but he
MH> didn't seem to shy away from saying that some people are destined,
MH> through their own poor choices, not to share in it.
What about those who, due to the inefficiency of Jesus' tiny
ministry in a localized area of the world, have been unable
for the last ~2000 years to receive salvation, and thus are
doomed to Hell? What about the Preterite?
... Drop that Bible and come out with your eyes open!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: trust
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:39:42
EID:64ef 2030bce0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2aa
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 890447B5
MG> The bible is full of physcial impossibilities. the flood is only one
MG> example. You know the litany of the rest of them. do you seriously
MG> believe that a book that contains a story like that of the ark can be
MG> believed in anything.
MH> Why not? The Bible is not a book, but a collection 66 books. The
MH> flood is one story in one book. Assuming that the flood story is
MH> completely false -- not even true as a metaphor or parable -- your
MH> statement is akin to saying that because a library has books by
MH> Velikovsky, you can't trust the books by Hawking.
So is it a correct assumption that you aren't an "inerrantist"? :)
... OK, I admit it--_I_ was the one who made those crop circles in England
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Married, Will Cheat
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:56:04
EID:433e 2030bf00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2ab
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 890510D0
JH> (Eat your heart out God Dan, I'm a LORD now.)
DC> pass the tests. You, OTOH, skipped all that and presented a
DC> senior thesis, with head on a platter...
RJ> All Worrell and I had to do was fill out a form, so there!
DC> Sure, go ahead... Rub the fundys' nose in it that you know
DC> how to fill out a form.
DC> It's a cinch that Kris Okelly will never make the grade!
Exactly! In the section where I let the applicant "declare
their enemies", I'd have to inscribe something like "satin" on
his/her Holy Scripture , and generations to come would
launch bloody pogroms at every Frederick's of Hollywood
outlet in the world in Kris's Name . But at least retro-
disco clubhoppers would be persecuted to the four corners
of the Earth.
... "Diary Of A Gigolo", by O. Howie Fuchs--Available At Bookstores Soon!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ----
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:00:43
EID:835d 20310000
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2ac
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 890510D1
RJ> "Yeah, yeah! We're gonna builds us a gold cow, yeah! An'
RJ> youse guys are gonna woiship it, yeah!"
DC> Well, there's a thread going on on the bible in a Western
DC> setting. Looks like there might be the groundworks starting
DC> for one set in the 20's or so, with Al Capone playing the
DC> title role!
Or Bela Oxmyx.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: HEAVENLY AND DAZED
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:05:48
EID:b772 203100a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2ad
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 30f995ec
RV> Well maybe not Al , he might think about it , but at this point in
RV> his life , i don't think he would try to stop it.
LB> I think you're dead wrong on that one. Don't let your eagerness to
LB> stuff every individual Christian into the neat little stereotypical
box
LB> you have laid out for them blind you to the reality that Christians
are
LB> as much individuals as anyone else. And there have ALWAYS been
LB> examples of Christians who have bucked the tide of what current
LB> Christian thinking holds as standard, often at greater risk to life
and
LB> limb than the pagans.
*Usually* at greater risk. Burning witches was sort of the
"breather" the holy took after a hard day at work rooting out
heretics. For a Christian heretic, no form of torture was
too heinous, since an "error in thinking" was far worse a crime
than murder. Murder was just killing a body (there's that
Platonic quirk which really lies at the root of the Christian
onus, IMO). Heresy was the murder of the soul--and could poten-
tially murder even more souls.
... I'd rather be Herod's pig than Herod's son.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: VIRGIN
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:17:14
EID:58e3 20310220
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2ae
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 30f9c69d
AM> Three hundred years ago modern scientist postulated that the
AM> Earth was supported on the back of a giant turtle. The Bible in Job
DC> Sure they did. Name one of those scientists.
AM> Just look at any book on the history of science and you'll see
AM> a graphic displaying the Earth being supported on the back of a
AM> tortoise.
This is a joke, right? You just forgot to put a little
grin icon, correct? I *know* you can't seriously be using
this reply as your answer. That's why I'm going to save
my comment for confirmation/denial in your reply.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Homosexual Christian
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:25:23
EID:e292 20310320
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2af
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 0695b881
> CM>>Christian
> PAGAN
SM> Christian's his NAME, love.
SM> Your name isn't PAGAN. It's Gwenny...... [g,d,r]
Don't give her ideas. ;-)
... Into the mud, scum queen!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Fundy Follies!
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:27:39
EID:c5a5 20310360
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2b0
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 0695b883
SM> The Balanced Rock, in fact, is an example of where the marine
SM> limestones weathered away faster than the sandstones did, leaving a
SM> HUGE fucking chunk of red sandstone undisturbed (until 1956) on a tiny
SM> point of it. (In 1956, some asshole blew the Rock off its pivot using
SM> explosive charges.)
Which only leaves us with happy memories of what once was
from Roadrunner cartoons...
... "16 Hawaiian Love Songs", by Kamanawanaleha--Available Now On CD!!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: ABORTION
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:32:12
EID:5643 20310400
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2b1
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 0695b88c
SM> You want to know about who......Maria Russell, you say?? Yeah, she
SM> qualifies for total disability due to schizophrenia as far as *I* can
SM> tell. She has never posted a single message evidencing contact with
SM> the real world...
Slightly germane to the topic, but I did a little reading on
Vicki Weaver (who got her head blown off for wielding a baby
at Fed sharpshooters at Ruby Ridge). Turns out that though
hubby Randy was the rabid bigot, a good bit of his ideology
came from his wife, who _was_ the spiritual keystone of the
family. She was the one who believed she and her adolescent
daughter should be "separated" from the men during their
periods to live in a drafty shack away from the house, as well
as the usual spate of rabid Christian female submission.
Why do you suppose people insist on making life so needlessly
difficult for themselves?
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Homosexual Christians
|Date: 17 Jan 96 00:46:29
EID:9023 203105c0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2b2
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 0695b88f
> Christian's favorite drink: highball
SM> Those of us who have ever __bathed__ at a Draggin' Ass Festival have
SM> ALL experienced that!!
When's it held this year? I'm not making any promises, but
since it's probably about 8 months from now I'm seeing about
trying to attend one of these little ftes, see what all the
hubbub is, maybe tte-a-tte a few of you mountain whackos.
SM> A swift baptism in ANY waters which arise in Wellington Lake *will*
SM> cause a man to grow a vagina!! (They're THAT fucking cold!!)
Not exactly _grow_ one...
... Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Former Soviet Union
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:53:19
EID:0512 2031b6a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2b3
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 608c5300
RJ> ... "Fuck it...who wants pie?" -- Dennis Miller
MG> Would you explain this to me? I don't have a clue who this is or
MG> where this came from.
I stole the tagline from someone, but it was one of those
"throwaway" lines in one of his monologues, right at the end
of some sort of cutting sociopolitical diatribe. Dennis
Miller, btw, is a comedian, he used to do Weekend Update on
SNL about 4 years ago--but his standup routine is a killer.
Hey, have you been getting FLAME fed to you? For some reason,
only that echo of the ones I pull haven't been coming in.
... Did he just say..."splunge"?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:54:14
EID:2be2 2031b6c0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2b4
As> I have a question, but still haven't got the answer. I see this word
As> all the time "fundy" but have never caught its meaning. Could you
As> tell me what it it?
Fundamentalist. Mostly applied to Christians in particular,
specifically ones who actually think everything in the book
is true *in the form it was written*. They think the Universe
was created in 6 days, that there was a Great Flood, and a 650
year old guy named Noah built a little wooden boat that somehow
managed to contain a sample of every life form on the planet.
Fundies come in all religions, including pagans who "make it up
as they go along", but you find most fundies causing trouble
out of what they read in the Bible and Koran.
I'd say about 65% of the Christians on this echo are "fundies",
based on their correspondence. Of the other 35%, about 15% are
fully aware of the allegorical nature, and the other fifth pick
and choose when they want it to be literal as it suits their purpose.
... "Bother," panted Pooh as he atomic-wedgied Piglet's leather jockstrap.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 17 Jan 96 15:44:16
EID:1a1d 20317d80
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2b5
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d75f6a7e
KW> His mother, after he was sentenced, complained that 90+years was
KW> overly harsh, and commented that this would "Teach women to tell their
KW> daughters not to date more than one boy."
They should've locked her up in the same cell with the animal.
... If you're too tense, why not reduce it to one fifth?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Love the FBI
|Date: 17 Jan 96 18:26:33
EID:3146 20319340
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2ba
DW> It was Judith (the Quaker, of all people) who brought up
DW> destroying the building...
DR> Well, you know how ruthless and blood-thirsty the Quakers
DR> are. /laughing!/
"What?" --R.M. Nixon
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Preston's temper tantrum...
|Date: 17 Jan 96 18:39:39
EID:e0ac 203194e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2bb
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30f9939d
JS> Ahh...sure pushed the right buttons with that one, didn't I...
PS> Pity that you let this stand between you and heaven, Jim. Don't worry.
PS> I'll make sure I grab the berth next to yours in Hell so I can keep
you
PS> company for all eternity. Won't that be nice?
Make sure you use lots of big words, so he can say "What?"
for all eternity.
... and the dog walks up to the tree...a-a-and...he...PIDDLES ON IT!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: a miracle in the making
|Date: 17 Jan 96 20:56:02
EID:c88c 2031a700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2bc
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 608c3f2a
ML> But that's why you drink scotch...it's the only stuff that
ML> wash down the taste of haggis.
MG> What DO Haggis tste like?
Though I've never tasted it, I've got a recipe, and based on
the ingredients I'd say it tastes sort of like a pungent liver
sausage. Lessee...it's got heart, liver, lungs, oats, rosemary,
thyme, onions & odds 'n' ends (salt, pepper, nutmeg) all stuffed
in the stomach. Big splash of scotch. And of course, set the
bottle and the shotglass on the table at serving time.
I've never heard anyone say anything good about haggis, but
people still continue to eat the things. Seeing as how I've
eaten unusual things in the past, ranging from raw sea urchin
to Vegemite--I can't see how haggis could be the worst thing.
... They call 'em "roachclips" because "potholder" was taken.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bible Follies
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:19:04
EID:5cf8 2031aa60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2bd
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 608c5abd
JM> Maybe Creationists are descended from the same branch that
JM> produced monkeys rather than the one that produced the apes.
MG> Dunno. I'm tempted to do some cloning experiments to see if the DNA
MG> patterns of fudnies and real people are the same.
MG> I'm sure that for hemoglobin, for instance, we're 98% compatible. :-)
Wait, you mean their erythrocytes _don't_ have nuclei?
... "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:43:48
EID:5d16 2031ad60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2be
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 60989d84
SA> Speaking of Prewett's "theory" - didn't the last pope who
SA> was assassinated get a head wound, too?
JH> Which pope was that? I'm not aware of any pope in recent history
JH> being assassinated. But I'd guess that it's a safe bet that a few
JH> have been back in the days when the weapon of choice was poison and
JH> not a firearm.
Like 1978?
... Einmal ist keinmal. (What happened only once need never have happened)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Christmas
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:15:23
EID:3595 2031b1e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2bf
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 13e8fac4
GT> Christianity was the
GT>experiment for me....it didn't work. I am pagan. I even have diety
GT>beliefs...which I am much to smart to air in this forum.
JJ> Doesn't your fear say something very negative about this place?
JJ> I for one would be very receptive to hearing about those beliefs.
It
JJ> is a shame this cannot be a place to share those safely.
And I would posit she's actually more concerned with what
us evil atheist heathens would ask her about her deity beliefs
than any Christian on this echo. (If you're reading, Pooh,
am I correct in my assumption?) For one, seeing as she's well-
versed in the Christian argument, anything your correligionists
would say, she's already anticipated.
And if I'm right, then that's pretty damning against your theory
that atheists are the ones who created paganism just to gum up
the works of your worldwide lockstep Christianity machine. Why
would we want to rake our own "footsoldiers" over the intellectual
coals, do you suppose?
Oh well, at least I won't have to worry about you responding to
this, as I didn't include any nasty words or snide remarks.
... Du ekelhafter Ausfluss einer syphilitischen Kamelvotze.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: FRED PHELPS
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:31:06
EID:729f 2031b3e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 30fdd2c0
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0a45996f
LB>It's funny how often restaurants get confused by that -- almost invariably
LB>I wind up with the glass of wine and he gets the brew.
KW> Have you ever tried mead?
I used to make gallons of the stuff about 5 years ago. The
motivation at first was a cheap alternative to beer (turned out
to cost almost $3/gal even), but toying with the recipe got fun.
That, and getting everyone in the house toasted on two pints
each.
I'd love to avail myself of some new equipment and try
making more--and really get creative with it. I want to make
some blueberry and raspberry recipes. BTW, I inadvertently
discovered how to make a mellow product that's easily drinkable
after a month of aging, as opposed to one to three years. Of
course longer aging makes it better, but when ya can't wait... 8-d
... "Bother", said Pooh, as his mead wort boiled over.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Coridon Henshaw
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 15 Jan 96 17:12:02
EID:45eb 202f8980
MSGID: 1:250/820 30fa8bf5
On Friday January 12 1996 at 02:45, Asmodeus wrote to David Worrell:
A> You sound like the type of dumbass who would fuck up his motherboard
by
A> installing a new card set for the same com port as another device
A> already installed,
Hey dipshit! Yeah, you.
If a motherboard is toasted by an address, IRQ or DMA conflict, it was a
very badly designed motherboard. Any electronics-minded person would know
that.
By the way, 'guru,' how wide is the internal data bus on an 8 bit VGA card?
--- GoldED/2 2.42.G0615
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|From: David Fono
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Agnostic(ism?)
|Date: 16 Jan 96 16:07:29
EID:1219 203080e0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 0904012c
Well, there you go; BTW, I didn't need clarifying, I'm not a moron, just
expressing my humble arguments. -Stubbs (exscuse the absence of quoting,
I'll
use it as soon as I figure out how...)
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: David Fono
|To: Pam Gray
|Sub: Re: Agnostic(ism?)
|Date: 16 Jan 96 16:10:14
EID:bb21 20308140
MSGID: 1:250/1004 0904012d
PG> Whether anyone else believes is a moot point...
PG>
DF> Anyways, is agnosticism a religion or not? -Stubbs
PG>
PG> It's what you think and believe in your own heart is which counts.
People
PG> don't have to agree with what you believe as long as they respect your
beli
PG> and you respect their beliefs.
Well, okay, yeah, but its the principal of the thing that I was worried
about, not what my friends thought... but, well yeah.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Pam Gray
|To: David Fono
|Sub: Re: Agnostic(ism?)
|Date: 16 Jan 96 17:43:41
EID:a807 20308d60
MSGID: 1:250/1004 0904012e
David,
The principal - I know where you are coming from... :)
DF> Well, okay, yeah, but its the principal of the thing that I was worried
DF> about, not what my friends thought... but, well yeah.
However you don't need to worry about it one way or the other - life's too
short!
Take care,
Pam
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Pam Gray
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:06:35
EID:dca4 2030b8c0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 0904012f
PG>Are the police always looking at her garden????.... :)
Heee...hee...hee...my cousin's a cop...:)
PG>Since I live in Brampton - can you tell me her name? I just might know
her
PG>:)
D'ya know any "Gwen"s?
PG>Granted... when the debate is one, anything can be questioned just as
the
PG>people themselves are not being flamed. One questions christianality,
anot
PG>questions druidism and another yet again questions muslim and hindoism.
In
PG>the end a healthy debate is always welcomed.
Well, honest questions and making good debate points are what's
important no matter WHAT the topic. You can't take it all too
personally or it will eat you up and you'll look silly. Too many people
don't realize that!
PG>Short sightedness is rampant everything and that's a shame.
Agreed. I always say that 90% of people can't think for themselves, 5%
could but are too lazy and the rest get labelled, "crazy"...:)
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ Dyslexics of the world: UNTIE!...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Re: Satanist
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:06:38
EID:dd04 2030b8c0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 09040130
AS>An it harm no one who does not deserve it, do what ye will.ÿ
My question is, Who decides who is to deserve harm as we are a pretty
vengeful species?
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ Why worship a god that violated a virgin's civil rights?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: The Commanders Dying
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:06:39
EID:841d 2030b8c0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 09040131
JH> WB> Hi All: Today I realised I am dying! Here at Orvotron this
JH> WB> realisation was accepted by me as a huge snow storm engulfs
JH> WB> the eastcoast and our mountain with over four feet of snow
JH> WB> and it's still snowing.
JH> Which is to say: you had nothing to do but stay inside and drink.
JH> WB> IS THIS THE END!
JH> Out of beer already huh?
JH> There's always mouthwash and aftershave.
JH> WB> I think not only because the greatest power on and off Earth is
JH> WB> speaking through me.
JH> To say nothing of your Stupendous Modesty.
JH> WB> But now Spirit has revealed the survivial plan to bring us into
JH> WB> the Millenium! Our next NEWSLETTER will reveal this plan. IF I
JH> WB> DIE it is no good, but if I don't the GIFT to you is this plan.
JH> Hmmm... send money or the Ashtar Command will "call me home"...
JH> I've heard that line somewhere before.
Uh, I've heard of visions before but, um--did any of the great prophets
of mankind have newsletters?...
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG!...Tension breaker, had to be done.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: VIRGIN
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:06:40
EID:2496 2030b8c0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 09040132
JH> AM> Three hundred years ago modern scientist postulated that
JH> AM> the Earth was supported on the back of a giant turtle.
JH> Evidence please.
JH> Start with the NAME of this "modern scientist".
Whoever this yo-yo is, he's postulating the Native myth of creation
that he knows nothing about--and most of us take it for the allegory it
is, thanks!
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ Why worship a god that violated a virgin's civil rights?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Reminder
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:06:41
EID:fd5b 2030b8c0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 09040133
JH> JH>> I suspect the pork prohibition is rather lax among Moslems in
JH> JH>> India and almost totaly ignored in Malaysia and Indonesia.
JH> MB> I have a Muslim friend who spent most of one summer in
JH> MB> Maylasia among the Muslim people there. If I think of it,
JH> MB> I'll ask him next time I write to him, and find out whether
JH> MB> they observe that dietary restriction or not. My guess would
JH> MB> be that they do observe it. I would also guess that it is
JH> MB> observed in India, and that is perhaps one of the large
JH> MB> bones of contention between the Hindus and Muslims.
If I am not mistaken Hindus are often
vegetarian and the rest do not eat beef whereas Muslims only eat
"Halal" meat and never pork...
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...Gotta run, the cat is caught in the printer...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: HolySmoke Central Committ
|Date: 16 Jan 96 23:06:42
EID:da15 2030b8c0
MSGID: 1:250/1004 09040134
FR>0 0 000 0 0 0 0000 0 0 000 0 0 00000
FR>0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 00 00 0 0 0 0 0
FR>00000 0 0 0 0 00000 0 0 0 0 0 000 00000
FR>0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
FR>0 0 000 00000 0 0000 0 0 000 0 0 00000
FR>00000 0000 00000 The blasphemy _continues_ every day on
FR> 0 0 0 0 Internet Relay Chat channel #holysmoke
FR> 0 0000 0
FR> 0 0 0 0 ! ! !
FR>00000 0 0 00000
FR>The HolySmoke Central Committee plans to gather-up all the heathens
FR>(and any fundies we can trick into participating) who
FR>have Internet access to create some more painful on-line blasphemy
FR>specifically designed to do heaping gobs of incalcuable damage!
FR>Since one hour every day and another hour every night is set aside
FR>as an "official" check-in time, 'Smokers can try to coordinate days
FR>when we can expect to find another heathen on-line to talk to. The
FR>Central Committee has set aside the following hours yet these hours
FR>can change if there is a concensus to do so:
FR> From 11:00 Pacific US until at least 12:00
FR> From 20:00 Pacific US until at least 21:00
FR>This schedule, I believe, should fall between lunch and after
FR>dinner for the majority of people in HolySmoke. If not, we can
FR>adjust the times as desired or, even better, widen them! If it
FR>looks like few people can participate during the day, we can drop
FR>the noon time slot. We can also limit "official" times to week-
FR>ends if 'Smokers are too busy during the week to check in and talk.
FR>Want to talk about fundies on-line with other 'Smokers? Here's
FR>the chance. Perhaps we can even try to help fundies right on line
FR>while they wait! Perhaps we can get into the #mormon IRC and drag
FR>some fresh, unsuspecting fundies out of it and into #holysmoke!
FR> The possibilities are incalcuable!
FR>If you're interested, check it out. If you need information on
FR>how to access Internet Relay Chats and you have a PPP account, get
FR>GC0923.EXE from my system. It requires a WINSOCK and a WEB browser
FR>to be active. Also get IRC.HTM from my system and open it locally
FR>from your WEB browser to start!
FR>You'll be damned if you don't!
I WISH I could join but I can't...:( I'm all the way up here in Canada
and can't afford internet access or make a meet in Texas. But I'm
having lots of fun with you folks and hope to stick around for more!
It's the best and funniest religions conference I've ever seen!
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...You want me to find WHAT? Hee...hee..hee...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:250/1004)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Ignorant of history
|Date: 17 Jan 96 15:41:00
EID:7819 20317d20
MSGID: 1:271/460 30fd60af
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 0614749f
Friday January 12 1996 21:58, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
km>>> I belong to no Christanic death cult, and
km>>> I can see you still haven't learned.
FR>> The reason why the Christanic death cult has the history it does is
FR>> BECAUSE cult members like you refuse to admit it's a death cult.
km>> So tell me Fredric, what history is that?
FR> Go visit your library, Ken. If you stick with FidoNet for your badly
FR> needed education, chances are you'll end up a fundy for life.
FR> Research: Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch hunts, Adolf Hitler. Get back
to
FR> me when you need further references.
FR> Glad to help.
Fredric,
Who conducted the Crusades?
Who conducted the Inquisitions?
Who conducted the Witch hunts?
I know what Adolf Hitler did, and I have explained many times that people
that act in such a manner are not Christians. They can claim to be, but
that does not make them Christians. You will know a Christian by thier actions,
and the actions that Hitler took (IE trying to wipe out all the Jews) did
not prove him to be a Christian.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Drink it, Ken
|Date: 17 Jan 96 15:48:01
EID:0331 20317e00
MSGID: 1:271/460 30fd63d4
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 061474a0
Friday January 12 1996 22:00, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
km>>> You cannot say whether I "pretend" to believe or not.
FR>> I can easilly do so simply by pointing out that you refuse to
FR>> drink poison even though your occult mythologies say you can
FR>> without negative consequences -- if you're a true believer,
FR>> that is.
km>> And I tell you that according to the
km>> Bible, that would be tempting God
FR> That's a cop out and you're only lying to yourself to escape the fact
that
FR> _YOU_ are being tested.
No Fred, read the Bible you claim to know so well, nowhere did Christ tell
us to drink drink poison on purose to prove that we are Christians. Him
saying "if" we drink, does not mean that we are to go out and purposely
drink. Matter of fact, when it came to "providing proof" of who he was to
those that ask for proof like you do, he never did, he told Satan to go
away, he told the pharisee's that an evil and adulterous nation seeketh
after a sign. In other words, no proof was provided to those that specifically
wanted proof of who he was. But, he did indeed prove who he was because
of the miracles that he performed, the things that he taught us, the lives
that he changed, by what he preached. He was the Son of God.
FR> I know for a fact that you're a false Christian
FR> and when you're put to the test, you failed utterly.
Put to the test = tempted. This is coming from someone who claims that people
such as Hitler was a Christian. Apparantly you don't know what a Christian
is. Please show me an example from the New Testiment, of anyone drinking
poison to pass a test to show that they are a Christian. While your at it,
please show me the scriptures where Christ told us to drink poison to pass
a test. Face it Fred, the scriptures do not tell us to do what you "test"
us to do. Your "test" is not scripturally founded and is straight from the
devil himself. So I will tell you once again, as Christ told Satan in the
wilderness, "Get thee behind me Satan."
FR> Trying to pretend
FR> that your deities are being tested when YOU failed is blasphemy, Ken.
So tell me Fred, if I drink poison, who (according to the scriptures) is
going to protect me?
FR> See you in Hell.
You might be able to see me as the rich man in Luke 16 could see Lazarus
in Abraham's bosum, but I won't be in Hell Fred, I can't be I've been saved.
BTW Fred why would you tell me "See you in Hell" when you don't believe
it exist?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Mark 16:15-18. Shall I pour?
|Date: 17 Jan 96 16:02:02
EID:3082 20318040
MSGID: 1:271/460 30fd64e0
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 061474a1
Friday January 12 1996 22:02, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> Any _rational_ person sees that you are not a true believer. Anyone
FR>> _rational_ can see that it's not your deity constructs that are being
FR>> "tested," it's YOU that's being tested.
km>> No it's God that gets tempted, because you are trying
km>> him on his word through my actions.
FR> Nonsense. You believe the occult mythologies or you do not. Your myths
FR> state quite plainly that YOU may drink poison and YOU will not die.
Your
FR> deities cont even factor into the equation.
Actually Fred it says "and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not
hurt them;". "IF" Fred not "may".
km>> Sorry Fred, your logic doesn't work here.
FR> You lied. You live a lie. You are a false Christian. Trying to pretend
FR> you're not being tested makes you fail the test. That means you're
a
FR> false Christian.
No Fred, your tempting (testing) God not me, you don't know what a Christian
is, that's obvious from the others that you claim were Christians. Others
like Hitler and the ones who conducted the Crusades, Inquisition and the
Witch hunts.
FR> But then we knew that all along, didn't we?
Poor deluded Fred, as many times as he's claimed to have read the Bible
you would think by now that he would know what a Christian really is. Instead
of trying to twist the scriptures around so that he can show how a Christian
isn't one.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: LET'S RUMBLE!
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:02:20
EID:daa0 2031a840
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BA6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
Almost a kamakaze....
When one is convinced of a truth one, he must present it for others to
research. We must share ideas and perceptions to come up with the
ACTUAL truth.
That's what I'm here for.
+- Jose -+
...God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:08:25
EID:56b6 2031a900
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BA7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
That was an ignorant and unsolicited remark. I can only respond to you
by saying that you will never be right about ANYTHING if you continue
to respond to possible answers in this manner. YOU ARE OUT OF LINE.
I hope your choice of words will be more acceptable next time.
+-Jose -+
...God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:13:35
EID:a2f0 2031a9a0
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BA8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
I was responding to the MANNER with which such an outward manifestation
of self righteousness was spoken. There is a biblical LOVE that God
talks of and that was not anything near it. Don't be so sarcastic - you
know what was meant!
Please, know that God has not given ANY of us the right to condemn
people to hell. That is not our task. Ours is to help people to have a
relationship with HIm. That was my point.
+- Jose -+
...God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:19:46
EID:3eef 2031aa60
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BA9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
I was deeply involved in the occult when I was younger. My family comes
from a long line of Santeria (Cuban voodoo). Though there was so much
power in magic and the occult, I have seen no power greater than that
of my God.
I also know from experience that if a spell is cast on a buddist, a
humanist, or any else, the spell my penetrate. But, on a christian,
the spell is powerless. How do you explain that. How do you explain
that God is a personal God that only seeks to have a relationship with
you and love you.
My friend, THAT is REAL POWER!! Tune in to it.
+- Jose -+
...God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Fundamentalists R Us
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:23:10
EID:b79f 2031aae0
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BAA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
I know that you post was sarcastic, my friend. But, there are many
readers who needed to have that cleared. Please refrain from insults.
It only makes you look primative. God loves you.
+- Jose -+
...God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Jeezoids
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:25:34
EID:e5fe 2031ab20
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BAB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
He's there...just wait patiently. He's waiting for you to drop your
pride and blindness. He'll show you love like it was meant. I promise.
+-Jose-+
....God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: SomeThing New (1:18/73.0)
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:27:35
EID:703c 2031ab60
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BAC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
My God has nothing to do with sending people to hell. YOU make that
choice. I do not believein a religion - only God.
+-Jose +-
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Jesus said "EAT ME!"
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:32:59
EID:7a25 2031ac00
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BAD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
He's more alive than you know. You are not eating him, you are
acknowledging the braking of His body and the spilling of His blood.
You are ceremonially commemorating that occasion by partaking of
communion.
You are in my prayers....
+_ Jose -+
..God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fundamentalists R Us
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:34:55
EID:c2fe 2031ac40
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BAE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
I apologize for the miscommunication. It was directed to the other
person. Sorry - CROSSED WIRES!!
+- Jose -+
...God'll Getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: SomeThing New (1:18/73.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 18/73 3601/18 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Holiday greetings...
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:36:35
EID:e80a 2031ac80
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BAF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
It's even better to SEE it! God is REAL, friend. You are in my
prayers...
+-Jose-+
...God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: SomeThing New (1:18/73.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 18/73 3601/18 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Conference Guidelines
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:49:57
EID:7b10 2031ae20
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BB0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
Well said.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: SomeThing New (1:18/73.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 18/73 3601/18 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jose Gomez
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Perhaps here's the reason
|Date: 17 Jan 96 21:56:28
EID:3581 2031af00
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 89074BB1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
Silence is not a cure for "Christian noise". We have a purpose - not to
shove God down anyone's throat, as HE even condemns, but to present our
lives and our witness of the things we've seen and experienced, so that
every man and woman can make up their minds on their own. We all have a
free choice whether to accept God or reject Him. But, that does not mean
that we should stop insisting on what we've found.
I invite you and everyone to search the libraries and historical records
and you will find an overwelming amount of evidence supporting the bible
and its fundamental ideas. But don't take MY word for it...search for
yourself.
+-Jose-+
God'll getcha!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: SomeThing New (1:18/73.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 18/73 3601/18 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Sunshine cadaver
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:04:14
EID:fd54 20316080
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b01cb7
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 30f3bc77
DW> This reminds me of something I meant to bring up. There
DW> was an article in the local paper about fraud at a local
DW> cemetary. It seems that they regularly lost bodies, dumped
DW> bodies in ditches, put bodies in the wrong plot, and all
DW> sorts of other similar things.
Houston seems to get a case like this every three or four years,
usually the cemetary opperator and clients are members of a
minority community.
But by far the best case was when a funeral director RETURNED
a body for non-payment of service fees. The "customer" wouldn't
let them into the house, so they dumped the body on the porch.
DW> One of the families, however, was complaining that their corpse
DW> was buried facing *west*. Can someone explain the problem to
DW> me?
Old, OLD, *OLD* custom. Since neo-lithic times it has been common
to bury the dead facing the east. Seeing how that's where the sun
rises, it's a fairly obvious symbol of resurrection.
However, as far as I can tell, that practice has largely been
abandoned in the US. Aesthetics seems to be the deciding factor
in orienting plots.
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:17:04
EID:06be 20316220
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b02c8b
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 30f4c1fa
RJ> I can see the 1190-91 U-Paris catalog course offerings now:
RJ> POLI 101: Rock Collecting & Avoiding Dysentery (2hrs lec.
RJ> 1hr lab)
RJ> POLI 201: Advanced Rock Collecting & Coping with
RJ> Dysentery (1-3-3)
RJ> POLI 305: Undermining Walls and Casualty Minimization
RJ> (permission of dean and next of kin req'd., 0-2-2)
RJ> POLI 405: Advanced Ram Techniques (1-1-2)
RJ> POLI 406: (in conjunction w/Home Econ 406) Recipes for
RJ> Cooking Saracens (0-1-1)
POLI 202 (in conjunction with CHEM 201) Oil composition
and determination of boiling points.
POLI 203 Hostage Management (counts as an anatomy credit
for Pre-Med. Depends on availablity of hostages.)
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Re: On the fifth day of Satan
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:28:58
EID:6103 20318b80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b2fcd5
A> I didn't bother sending a curse your way.
A> You ever think that maybe I _just said that_?
You expect me to believe that there is a difference between the two?
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Buttpimple Satanist
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:32:07
EID:7407 20318c00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b30c68
A> I did not bother with the issuing of the curse, I merely
A> stated that I had placed one to express my disapointment in
A> your use of hypocritical vocabluary.
Ah... so when you said:
A> For speaking (writing) such stereotypical bullcrap I curse you,
A> and for your lies about not doing so (if you were a man you would
A> admit your actions) I damn you.
A> See you in Hell!
...you were simply blowing smoke out of your ass.
Which makes you a liar.
Or are you lying now?
Whichever way: today is Day SIX of your failed Satanic Curse.
Nothing has happened.
A> Please do not send me any more hate-mail, and I will respond
A> in kind.
Read my lips: Fuck you.
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: WHITE-LIGHTER RELIGIO
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:42:04
EID:4e8e 20318d40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b32103
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 30fc80f1
JH>> (It's been a good week, it started out with Prewett
JH>> calling me a bitch and now I got a GEN-U-WHINE Satanic
JH>> Curse put on me.)
JB>> I can lift that curse for you, easy. Only cost you $300
JB>> and 2 fingers.
LB> Do they have to be J.J.s fingers, or can he take them off
LB> an unsuspecting stranger?
I don't think she's going to get anyone's fingers.
Asmodiddly is trying to whimp out on his curse.
(You'll notice he waited almost a week to see if it was actually
going to work or not. When even he had to admit that he failed,
he comes on with his "only kidding" line of crap.)
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: So -shoot- me!
|Date: 17 Jan 96 22:22:10
EID:2cde 2031b2c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b5b133
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 30fbc2a1
This line literally had me cackling out loud:
DW> Hell, I've got the whole state of Colorado twitted, along
DW> with most of Michigan.
....and Florida has really been pushing it's luck.
I never thought of it that way, but I suspect I am
filtering out many of the same folks you are.
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Bible Follies
|Date: 18 Jan 96 04:01:40
EID:c2ca 20322020
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b8c63d
SQ>> Who ARE these guys dressed in white suits (with the
SQ>> occasional female in a white dress) who canvass the
SQ>> intersections with a bucket?
JH>> You have them too?
SQ> I want them gone.
They're not mine.
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Christian Miller's Christianity
|Date: 18 Jan 96 04:07:30
EID:876d 203220e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b8ee0f
On Jan 13 02:42 96, Annette Spence of 85:823/50 wrote:
AS> hello...my name is annette...I am a christian from
AS> arizona....just following your posts...you seem to handle
AS> yourself pretty well....
You wrote the above to Christian Miller. I had the "pleasure" of
calling his BBS (he's a sysop) and I discovered the following
areas available on his system:
------->> Total Messages Imported to this BBS <<-------
Number of Messages Size of Messages
Message Base Name Last Daily Weekly Last Daily Weekly
------------------ ----- ----- ----- -------- ------- -------
* Down Home Talk'n * 0 0 0 . . .
* NetMail * 0 0 4 . . 6132.
SysOps of 3603 1 1 78 1706. 1706. 92899.
CoCo Echo 0 0 18 . . 15761.
OS-9 Echo 3 3 43 2127. 2127. 37710.
RiBBS SysOps 0 0 0 . . .
Fixin' tah fix car? 18 18 167 21555. 21555. 195932.
Macintosh Discussion 9 9 45 9941. 9941. 50057.
Yanks vs. Rebs 11 11 106 12468. 12468. 140329.
Knee Slappin' Music 27 27 165 39162. 39162. 223962.
Bible Echo 0 0 69 . . 124969.
Holy Smoke Debate 111 111 1161 133574. 133574. 1571036.
'Bout Yer Gun 17 17 245 24149. 24149. 343454.
The Bible Echo 8 8 15 11616. 11616. 20122.
Protect Yer Kin Folk 10 10 115 18559. 18559. 200904.
Lead Footin' It!! 4 4 19 3612. 3612. 18951.
Old Engines 0 0 7 . . 6017.
Hub 20030 Echo 0 0 0 . . .
Keep Yer Gunz 6 6 89 8763. 8763. 162665.
Visit'n Da Woods 0 0 4 . . 4369.
The Still 8 8 26 7552. 7552. 22689.
Bay Area: For Sale 2 2 47 1167. 1167. 43894.
Dem BBS Ads R Here! 12 12 155 18051. 18051. 243057.
Sex In Public Places 0 0 0 . . .
Romance Echo 0 0 0 . . .
CD/Book/Movie Review 0 0 0 . . .
Sexual Stories 0 0 0 . . .
Sexual Fantasies 0 0 0 . . .
CatNet BBS Ads 0 0 0 . . .
Sexual Advice 0 0 0 . . .
3 or Moresomes 0 0 0 . . .
S & M and B & D 0 0 0 . . .
Adult Humor 0 0 1 . . 454.
Married, Will Cheat 0 0 0 . . .
At The Bar 0 0 0 . . .
CatNet SysOps Echo 0 0 0 . . .
Sex Toys 0 0 0 . . .
Macintosh SysOps 1 1 20 854. 854. 21787.
Love & Marriage 0 0 26 . . 40136.
Totals: 248 248 2625 314856. 314856. 3587286.
Of course, the more "interesting" areas are empty; but their very
presence on a "Christian" BBS reflects directly on just what sort
of character Mr. Miller actually is.
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Buttpimple Satanist
|Date: 18 Jan 96 05:21:56
EID:7407 20322aa0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 60b990fb
A> It is just through my experience that when talking about religion
A> I tend to get jumped by the theists but left alone, or even
A> backed up by the atheists and darklighters.
That just shows how much "exerience" you actually
have, doesn't it?
By the way.... where's my fucking curse?
I hope you haven't forgotten this:
A> For speaking (writing) such stereotypical bullcrap I curse you,
A> and for your lies about not doing so (if you were a man you would
A> admit your actions) I damn you.
A> See you in Hell!
That was SEVEN days ago.
Nothing has happened.
I realize that you are currently claiming you were "just saying"
that. But one can't help but notice that you waited a week just in
case it actually worked. Only when you were faced with your obvious
failure do you come up with the claim that you were just pretending
to curse me.
I won't buy it.
I want my curse.
So shake yer mojo harder this time, boy.
And keep shaking it till ya get it right.
ooOOoo
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/400 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: Blanche Nonken
|To: All
|Sub: test
|Date: 17 Jan 96 09:46:10
EID:0d92 20314dc0
MSGID: 1:2614/715.0 30fd0bb2
Yet another test. Am I getting out?
*Tagline 1.4c* I've always felt that I was a lesbian trapped in a man's
body.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wyndow Into Reality - Wyndmoor, Pa. (215)233-5111 (1:2614/715)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Re: On the fifth day of Satan
|Date: 18 Jan 96 02:17:15
EID:2ebc 20321220
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac83
A>>> For speaking (writing) such stereotypical bullcrap I curse you,
A>>> and for your lies about not doing so (if you were a man you would
A>>> admit your actions) I damn you.
A>>> See you in Hell!
J>> Today is Day FIVE of my Satanic Curse.
J>> Nothing has happened.
J>> On the Fifth Day of Satan, Asmodeus sent to me...
J>> FIVE nothings..
J>> FOUR nothings..
J>> THREE nothings..
J>> TWO nothings..
J>> And a nothing in a nothing tree... la la la
A> You are a fool! I didn't bother sending a curse your way. You ever think
A> that maybe I _just said that_?
I think he was pointing out that very thing to you. You blew hot air, and
JJ reminded you about it. :-)
A> Or do you believe everything you hear?
This from a _theist?_ It is to laugh.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Drama is life with the dull bits cut out. (1:380/16)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Re: Perhaps here's the reason.
|Date: 18 Jan 96 02:18:25
EID:5071 20321240
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac84
AS> If the Lord wants to let someone in on the secret He will.
Not coincidentally, if Mickey Mouse wants to let someone in on the
secret, he will, too.
--- Hymen
* Origin: Heresy n. Freedom of thought. (1:380/16)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: Not an xtian, then?
|Date: 18 Jan 96 02:38:23
EID:5f66 203214c0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac85
REPLY: 1:280/9 089537ef
LB> The repetition again and again that God is Love
I take it that you don't believe in that old Jewish wargod Yahweh, then?
:-)
--- Tear it up
* Origin: Fundy motto: no sense makes sense. (1:380/16)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: Dick Holm
|Sub: Re: Abortion
|Date: 18 Jan 96 02:51:56
EID:8c56 20321660
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac86
DH> If you do not fear death - great. I have seen many people actually look
DH> forward to death, but in my experience these were all people who had
a
DH> belief in something beyond. The ones in my experience who fear death
DH> are those who have no confidence in a life beyond.
I believe you have the cart before the horse. When confronted with an
intense fear of death (yours or a loved one's), a "confidence" in a life
beyond may be the crutch that gets you through the day. Someone else
might take a stiff drink or three.
DH> But I have no fear of death as the end, because I do not believe
DH> that it IS the end.
I have no fear of death as the end because endings aren't necessarily to
be feared. Every good book should have an ending -- I generally dislike
sequels. However, I'm in no particular hurry to finish this particular
novel, just yet.
PS>> This emphasis on the unevidenced and possibly imaginary over the
PS>> evidenced and verifiable bothers me to no end.
DH> It seems that you require proof positive that something exists.
I could have sworn he said the "evidence" word above, not the "proof"
word...
But:
Do you make a habit of leaning on imaginary bannisters? Invest your
money without checking that the investment is legitimate? Take a long
trip without checking the gas gauge? Perhaps you, too, like some
evidence that something exists, eh? :-)
--- Tear it down
* Origin: Jesus died for your sins. Make it worth his effort. (1:380/16)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: Dick Holm
|Sub: Re: Abortion
|Date: 18 Jan 96 02:53:12
EID:9608 203216a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac87
DH> There's another creation mythology more recent than evolution?
ROFL! Yo, Dick, were you aware that evolution doesn't deal with the
origins of life? That's a mighty typical fundy mistake you let slip
there.
--- Tear it open
* Origin: My religion is really the universe. -- A. Einstein (1:380/16)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: Dick Holm
|Sub: Re: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 18 Jan 96 03:08:46
EID:52d0 20321900
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac88
DH>>> I believe that I shall live beyond this life.
DW>> While others believe they have been abducted and sexually abused by
DW>> Zeta Reticulans. So? What makes your unfounded belief any more valid
DW>> than their unfounded belief.
DW>> Oh... waitaminute... I guess it isn't fair to state that your belief
DW>> is unfounded before determining if you have any evidence. Do you?
DH> Nope. Just statistics.
Your "arguments" have nothing to do with "statistics," sorry.
DH> (1) The number of cultures that have burial practices indicating a
DH> belief in the same.
DH> (2) The mythologies from almost every culture which support the same.
DH> (3) The mythologies of the bible, both OT and NT.
Sorry, but belief in something doesn't make it trve. People once thought
the earth was flat, but it wasn't. All the above are dismissed.
DH> (4) The statistical probabilities of NDE's being more than hallucinations.
I'm sure they are -- which is not the same as saying they're anything
more than natural biological reactions. The best you can get here is
"we don't know exactly how they work yet." You are basically telling us
that "because they aren't plain garden variety hallucinations, they must
be spiritual phenomenon." But you haven't backed up the claim with a
scrap of evidence. It's known as an argument from ignorance, and is
also dismissed.
DH> (5) The logical progression of evolution, which suggests that the next
DH> stage of evolution will be in one of two areas - either the development
DH> of greater mental powers in the physical plane, or movement on to another
DH> plane of existence, or both.
Way off base.
First, if evolution produces some sort of advanced species in the
future, it won't affect you -- you'll be a long dead member of an old,
comparitively unadvanced species, remember (no offense, but do you
actually understand what evolutionary theory is?)?
Second, before you go theorizing about "movement on to another plane of
existence," don't you think it might be a good idea to demonstrate that
there is "another plane of existence" onto which to move? :-)
Third, I know of nothing in evolutionary theory that would insist that
either of the two alternatives with which you've provided us are
"logical progressions." Perhaps the unintelligent descendants of
cockroaches will inherit the earth.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Watching the defectives (1:380/16)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: Dick Holm
|Sub: Re: CHURCHES
|Date: 18 Jan 96 03:10:39
EID:f5c5 20321940
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac89
DH> How much science fiction do you think 100 old hymnbooks might be worth?
100 copies of _Dianetics_.
--- Hymen
* Origin: It only took my little fingers to blow you away. (1:380/16)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Mistaken identity
|Date: 18 Jan 96 03:13:16
EID:4b98 203219a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac8a
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 30fba729
DC>>> Just answer the query:
DC>>> Can you provide evidence that your god is more real than that
DC>>> of Robert Curry's niece's imaginary friend, Ciya?
JJ>> What's wrong, Dan? Can't come up with anything original to say?
DW> Why should we bother? You've been avoiding this one for years. Answer
DW> it, and we'll come up with some new stuff.
That's precisely why he's afraid to answer it. :-)
--- Tear it up
* Origin: My aim is true. (1:380/16)
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|From: Hector Plasmic
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 18 Jan 96 03:15:10
EID:ea41 203219e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 30fdac8b
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 30fba7fd
JG>> Just stop fighting like little kids and get on your knees!!
DW> Get on your knees? You might think about suing him for sexual
DW> harassment... :)
From the Fundy Door:
"Kneel with me. Pray with me. Kneel. Just kneel."
--- Tear it down
* Origin: Blame it on Caine. It seems to be his turn. (1:380/16)
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: INADMISSABLE NON-TEST
|Date: 11 Jan 96 07:43:00
EID:3eda 202b3d60
HP>> And, of course, the stories were purportedly written by Dr. Watson,
HP>> weren't they, Al? :-) You remain debunked.
AS> Do I? Find anyone who SERIOUSLY thinks Dr. Watson wrote them
HP> ROFL! Al, it wouldn't be worth much as an example if everyone thought
HP> he did, would it?
Reading comprehensions problems again, Hector? See the ANYONE above. And
see the EVERYONE in what you answered. Saying "if everyone thought he did"
is a little disingenious. That's like saying "if everyone thought Oswald
shot Kennedy." A significant minority might doubt it. OTOH, you will find
NO ONE who believes Watson actually wrote the stories. And as a comparison
to the attributions of who wrote the Gospels, it fails miserably, since
we
have quite a few people who definitely did--and do--believe they were
written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
... Hmmm, the fence must still be down over at the funny farm.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: IT ONLY HURTS WHEN I SPON
|Date: 11 Jan 96 08:33:00
EID:8229 202b4420
AS> The Jews, for thousands of years, and a variety of
AS> circumstances, have stayed true to their concept of God, despite
AS> pogroms and Holocausts and Inquisitions. The one thing they would
AS> be LEAST likely to assimilate is in the matter of religion.
JH> But we know of at least one very obvious example of a fusion
JH> between the tribal ethno-centric religion of the Jews and the
JH> more cosmopolitan world outlook of the Greeks and Romans.
JH> It's called Christianity.
True. And in all honesty, there WAS some fusion during the Exile.
The emphasis on the afterlife grew during the Exile and contact with other
cultures. In general, before that, everyone went to a misty netherland
after death called Sheol, or they believed people were just snuffed out.
The growth after that of belief in a good afterlife and bad afterlife can
be shown to be developed under contact with other cultures---a believer
can see it as God using even horrible circumstances to guide believers
towards a divine truth, and the nontheist can just note the assimilation.
However, I think it fair to say that Jews absorbed much LESS from the
cultures around them than practically any culture I can think of, with the
possible exception of the Chinese Middle Kingdom. (Even when the Chinese
were conquered, under the Mongols or the Manchus, the conquerors adopted
the culture of those they conquered, rather than vice versa.)
JH> And in modern times we have the observance of Hanukkah. The
JH> history of it's observance as a major holiday happens to coincide
JH> with the time when Dickens and the retailers made Christmas
JH> into a Mighty Big Deal. Also, you will find it being either a
JH> minor observance or not observed at all in those parts of
JH> the world where the Eastern Orthodox callendar is used and
JH> Christmas is celebrated somewhat later in the year.
No question; my own Church officially makes no big deal about Christmas,
we being supposed to celebrate Jesus' birth and Resurreciton every day of
our lives. In practice, though, the sermons always focus on the Nativity
around that time of year. You can't help but think about it.
... No sense in being pessimistic--- it won't work anyway.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Silver Xpress Mail System (1:116/3000)
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: MARRIED, WILL SPONG
|Date: 11 Jan 96 09:02:00
EID:4ed2 202b4840
AS> But...although it is a good generalization, JJ, sometimes
AS> it falls flat on specific instances. For instance, American
AS> settlers adapted very little from Indian religion.
JH> Only because there was little or no cultural interaction between
JH> the two. Assimilation is a gradual process that takes generations.
JH> The campaign of genocide waged against the natives didn't allow
JH> enough time.
Oh, I dunno. There was contact between the Indians since about 1600
through 1900, where the Indians still had a distinct culture. We certainly
absorbed some nomenclature (Mississippi, Tennessee, Chicago) and of
course, there was quite a bit of intermarriage. My wife shows signs of
having Indian ancestry. (Jack Butler I hope will not get mad if I consider
Indian culture after 1900 a variation of Western culture. I think by that
time general assimilation HAD taken place. Before that we had Indian
leaders who adopted anglo weapons, but little else. (For instance,
Geronimo, and going back further, Tecumsah, etc.) The Jews have managed
to
keep a distinct culture partly by refusing to intermarry, and partly by
an
absolute ideal of fidelity to their God. The Indians, being hundreds of
seperate cultures instead of just one, were assimilated bit by bit, partly
by the overwhelming numbers of the settlers and the generally superior
weaponry. If there had been an Indian who could have succeeded in uniting
the tribes, (and several tried) there would have been a real chance of the
Indians maintaining a seperate culture. (Remember in the 1700s many of the
colonial powers tried to make allies of the Indians. Sad to say, it was
only after we achieved independence that the genocide went ahead
full-throttle, before it was only partial. After all, England, France, et
al, had other lands. America was all we had, and how DARE these Indians
assert they had rights to it? So to our shame we did things like the Trail
of Tears.)
JH> In areas where there was enough time (the Southwest) we do see signs
JH> of such melding. However, the examples are largely limited to
JH> Antichrist Roamin' Catholicism, which we all know isn't God's
JH> favorite brand of Christianity.
Yes; they lasted longest because no one wanted to live in a hot desert
until all the other lands were filled up.
JH> However, I will grant you that assimilation does require a certain
JH> degree of cultural flexibility, an ability to adapt to new
JH> situations. The tribal cultures of the Indians of the southwest are
JH> rigidly traditionalistic, and as such are doomed to inevitable
JH> extinction. Judaism, thanks in part to the Babylonian captivity,
JH> is a little more adaptive. Yet you will notice that while it does
JH> survive, only very rarely (and under special circumstances) has it
JH> ever really thrived.
And that's true, too. They were almost always outsiders.
... Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: MISSED POINTS
|Date: 11 Jan 96 09:07:00
EID:57b4 202b48e0
AS> The point I was stressing
HP> The point is that both you and Mikey couldn't figure out Marilyn's
HP> reaction when the explanation was right under your nose.
Hector's Hatchetjob strikes again. Cut-and-pasting (notice the lack of
punctuation, class.). That's okay. I'll just restore it. The point I was
stressing that being Christian is no shield to my criticism, and I would
have criticized my favorite Christians, such as C.S. Lewis or Dorothy L.
Sayers as much as I do Jimmy Swaggert and the Bakkers. Of course, if they
engaged in the same sort of practices, they wouldn't be one of the "my
favorite Christians", would they?
AS> In other words, Hector. Read the context with understanding.
HP> That's precisely what you failed to do, Al.
At least I don't have to delete someone's answer and only respond to what
I WANT to respond to. Thus denying the context altogether.
... You have the attention span of a ferret on a double mocha.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: MR. MILLER...PROBLEM?
|Date: 11 Jan 96 09:11:00
EID:02d5 202b4960
LB> Well, would YOU?! Who knows where he's been??! (outside, having a
LB> threesome without his wife's knowledge, I guess)
JS> If nothing else, Christian seems to be one who upholds the Bible as
JS> God's Word.
While having echoes on his BBS about "threesomes" and "cheating on one's
mate"? Asserting the Bible is God's Word does little good unless one can
follow what it says. Remember what James says about so what if you believe
Jesus is the Son of God. The devils in Hell believe that, aye, and
tremble.
... "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 11 Jan 96 09:34:00
EID:3a54 202b4c40
DW> Everything bad is the fault of the French. I have it on good
DW> authority that Jehovah is actually French.
No, that was Louis the XIV, but that is an understandable mistake.
Certainly Louis THOUGHT he might as well be God. "The state is me,"
INDEED.
... Carpe DM: Seize the Dungeon Master.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: PRESTON SIMPSON
|Sub: PERSEVERE
|Date: 11 Jan 96 09:49:00
EID:fcc1 202b4e20
PS> Who better to criticize Christians than other Christians? There's at
PS> least a snowball's chance in hell that those criticized will listen
PS> to their fellow Christians.
AS> Welllll....maybe. Joan of Arc wasn't torched by nasty atheists, she
AS> was torched by a group of English bishops. Sometimes it's better to
be
AS> a pagan than a heretic.
PS> Yes, I know. Sometimes better to believe in the wrong god than in
PS> the right god in the wrong way, eh?
Heathens are to be pitied. Heretics are to be BURNED. The animosity of the
early Christians towards pagans has been somewhat exaggerated...you can't
convert a dead man. They didn't hang the druid priests when they took over
England and France, for instance. Unfortunately, the animosity of Christians
against other believers who believe the wrong way is NOT exaggerated.
Gibbon wrote wonderingly of street fights breaking out in major cities
over the interpretation of a single word, whether Jesus was equal to God
or merely "like" God. (It was when Christianity became firmly entrenched
and complacent and quite frankly, corrupt, that it started turning to
witch hunts in more than isolated instances.)
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 11 Jan 96 09:58:00
EID:542f 202b4f40
DH> I noticed the caps on "I AM." Are you you now claiming divinity as
DH> well? :-)
LB> (innocent look) I AM divine, Dick. After you've been here awhile
LB> longer, you'll realize that. ;)
Does John Waters know this? (If you have never seen a John Waters film,
or
the actor Divine, that joke just fell flat...)
... Jesus lefthanded? Sure! He was perfect, wasn't he?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: PRESTON SIMPSON
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 11 Jan 96 10:05:00
EID:8ec0 202b50a0
AS> I have no problem with someone sticking to what the Bible says. But
AS> leave open the possibilities of what it doesn't mention, and try to
AS> read with understanding and reconcile with the actual world we
AS> observe, the rest.
PS> It would be nice if people would at least admit the possibility.
Too true.
... AD&D Lesson #126 - Don't play fetch the stick with Cerebus.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: SATANIC CURSE UPDATE
|Date: 11 Jan 96 10:09:00
EID:f56c 202b5120
A> For speaking (writing) such stereotypical bullcrap I curse you,
A> and for your lies about not doing so (if you were a man you would
A> admit your actions) I damn you.
A> See you in Hell!
JH> Today is Day TWO of my Satanic Curse.
JH> Nothing has happened.
Well, we CAN'T doubt Azmodeus, can we? So the only answer is that you are
ALREADY in Hell. Or at least, New Jersey...
... Posted by my evil twin, Skippy.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: SILLY FUNDY CLAIMS
|Date: 11 Jan 96 10:26:00
EID:ad04 202b5340
HP>> Since Mark was written after Saul wrote, what's so unusual about that?
HP>> Only a fundy like yourself would be amazed at, say, the similarities
HP>> between, say, Stoker's _Dracula_ and King's _Salem's Lot_.
AS> And, if he wrote roughly 60 AD, it was in a time when they could have
AS> cross-referenced each other. So they are giving each other corroboration.
HP> ROFL! Al, Al, Al, you ever hear of the Cthulhu Mythos? Were the
HP> writers in the Lovecraft Circle giving each other "corroboration?"
(Gentle smile.) No; in fact we have the letters of Lovecraft, Howard,
Bloch, et al specifically DENYING any "reality" to the mythos. Remember
whatsisface who asserted there was a real Abdul Alharazed, etc.? Remember
how easioly we took him down? (And I played as large a part as anybody
here. What was he called, White Sox or something?) But the letters we have
from Paul assert the exact opposite. Nor is there any indication that they
were accepted as fiction, whereas the Cthulhu Mythos...well, you know the
rest.
HP> You're debunked.
That seems to be a reflex with you. Claiming victory without waiting for
an answer. Too bad.
BTW, I suppose the correspondence between Byron, Percy Shelley, and Mary
Shelley does not prove they travelled together, or that Percy died when
they were travelling? They were all making it up as they went along? They
hoaxed everybody with Percy's death?
If not, why not? I am applying the exact same reasoning you do with the
writings of Paul and the Gospels.
... Certainty is for those who can't handle reality.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: RYAN SHAW
|Sub: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 11 Jan 96 11:33:00
EID:7d30 202b5c20
KC> You tell em' Next thing ya Know these Christians will tell you the
KC> Earth is round, And that the City of Troy was real or that Man will
KC> break the sound barrier, or that they can fly or even better that
KC> Radiation will kill you...
RS> I know this may be hard for your two neurons to digest, but radiation
RS> does kill, we have supersonic jets, and the earth is round.
AS> Wasn't he being sarcastic? I certainly read it so...I thought he
AS> was AGREEING with Hector.
RS> Perhaps.
RS> From what I read of his other posts however, I doubted that he was
RS> spewing sarcasm.
Yeah, but how many people have had any education at all, even first grade,
or watched the TV, and not known the Earth is round?
I suppose he COULD be a flat Earther. But even flat Earthers realize
that most people think the Earth is round.
... "Knowledge is ruin to my young men." -- Adolph Hitler (1889-1945) Germ
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: RE: WHITE-NIGHTIE RELIGIO
|Date: 11 Jan 96 12:32:00
EID:e254 202b6400
A> I know enough to have chosen a name which suits me, except
A> for Asmodeus was Hebrew, and I was Christian. It matters
A> naught, for now we both stand for the same thing.
JH> You obviously don't know shit about linguistics either.
JH> (We're begining to see a pattern here. Can you spot it?)
JH> The "-deus" sufix of your name is clearly Greek.
LOL!!! A hit! A palpable hit! Good one, JJ.
... He who laughs, lasts.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: WHY GOD? 2/2
|Date: 11 Jan 96 13:48:00
EID:41a1 202b6e00
JP> Your above is just a long-winded way of revealing
JP> you don't have a clue as to how Jesus sees things.
Oh. And you DO, of course.
JP> Listen up- this is simple-
JP> I'm betting on the proposition that Jesus wants people to KNOW
JP> that Jesus was not guiding those who created and conducted
JP> the Inquisition, and that the Revelation of Jesus reveals the
JP> way Jesus sees the religious institution that DID create and
JP> conduct the Inqusitions.
Interesting. Too bad that everyone who reads Revelation reads it
differently.
JP> The label "Christian" INSINATES someone or something led by
JP> CHRIST.
And the term Israelite or Jew insinuates that they are led by the teachings
of Abraham and Moses. And yet, He criticized the Pharisees and Sadduccees,
even while talking about being sent to help "the lost sheep of Israel",
and at first rejecting a plea to help a Gentile woman.
JP> I betting that CHRIST resents it being even INSINUATED
JP> that mass murderers rate being labeled "CHRISTians. "
On the contrary, He knew they were coming. "Many will say, Lord, Lord..."
and a little later, "depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, I knew ye
not."
JP> People who say Roman Catholics are Christians are telling
JP> the world that pope-led mass killers were "Christians".
*Sigh* Torquemada thought he was doing honor to Christ by killing
unbelievers. Did that make him Jewish? No. Buddhist? No. Atheist? No.
Wiccan? No. (Actually Torquemada HAD some Jewish blood, which may be one
reason he reacted so strongly against it...)
JP> [IOW- "Christian" no matter what they did,
JP> and no matter who they heeded]
Unless one has a direct pipeline to God or Jesus to ask HIS opinion,
that's what we have to work with...
JP> Actually, people who say "Trinitarians" are Christians,
JP> are telling the world that carnal killers are Christians,
JP> because-
JP> Every chaplain and most soldiers of every army in every war
JP> [on all sides] involving "Christedom" for the last nearly 1700
JP> years has been a "Trinitarian" "Christian."
Oh. And if someone who DIDN'T believe in the Trinity engaged in war, then
all who believed the same as he would be tarred with the same brush?
Bigoted thinking at its best!
JP> MAN PLEASING "christian" PUKES ignore these facts.
Tell me again how you don't show hatred, John. Or is "pukes" supposed to
be a compliment?
JP> [while they cheerfully denigrate "fundies"]
I am? Hector must be amused to hear that...
JP> Which cult ? Roman Catholic ? Or "Orthodox" ?
AS> To the victims, it matters very little, John.
JP> Regarding your claim he was an "avowed Christian" it is
JP> relevant.
Why? What difference would it make, say, if he were Orthodox? Would it
make his crimes any less? Would it make him any less a believer in the
sayings of Christ? And would it make him any less repugnant to Jesus?
AS> a church? "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
AS> prophesized in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in
AS> thy name done many wonders? And then will I profess untothem, I never
AS> knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity." [Matt 7:22.]
JP> What might He think of people who causually slander Christ
AS> Telling the faults of some of His followers is not slandering Christ,
John.
JP> Unless it is a "fundy" type doing the fault finding, I presume.
JP> When a "fundy" type does it, then it is "hateful."
What is WITH you, John? I have never called you "fundy" and have been
called that plenty of times, by many people on this forum. When you
espouse HATE, it is hateful. I'm sorry you don't like that. If you have
a
problem with that, take it up with Jesus. I know what he said about those
who hate being no less than murderers.
JP> The issue I raise has to the correctness of claiming or
JP> insinuating that mass murderers should be called "His followers."
Well, quite frankly, what else am I to call them? They certainly THOUGHT
they were following Jesus' precepts. Just as I recognize that you---even
though I think you are mistaken in some things---are trying to follow what
you believe are Jesus' precepts. I don't call YOU "christian" as if
doubting your Christianity, as you do me. I hope, if you will think about
it, you will realize I am doing the same.
JP> ["CHRISTians" are presumed to be "His followers"]
AS> He obviously had great respect for Moses, but little for the
AS> Pharisees and Sadduccees He criticized, though they thought
AS> themselves to be followers of Moses and descendents of Abraham.
JP> "For IF you believed Moses,
JP> you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me." John 5:46
"But I was sent to save the lost sheep of Israel"--i.e., descendents of
who?
JP> ........ by insinuating mass murderers are guided by Christ ?
AS> By no means.
JP> [which is what one does when one speaks of mass murdering
JP> "Christians"]
AS> By no means, John. Your definition of Christian, if it means one who
AS> is guided in Christ in all things, is very different than mine.
JP> Do you agree with the principle that "Christ-led"
JP> is DIFFERENT FROM "Clergy-led" ?
It certainly can be. It depends on whether your clergy encourages you to
read the Bible and make decisions for yourself.
AS> "Judge NOTHING before the time" Jim.
JP> Rev. 2:2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that
JP> you cannot endure evil men, and you put to the test those who call
JP> themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
AS> Sure. I even know someone who claims to be an apostle. To have seen
AS> Jesus. And I similarly judge him false, on the evidence. But since one
AS> who is an apostle is one who has seen the risen Christ, it hardly
AS> seems germane here...
JP> It's germane to the appropriateness of JUDGING
JP> [evaluating, if you will] ANYONE who claims spiritual authority.
No. An apostle is a very specific word, claiming those who have seen the
risen Christ. (Which is another indication that much of Revelations might
do with the early Church.) He doesn't say elder, presbyter, etc. He says
apostle.
JP> [the alternative is becoming among the "blind following the blind"]
Better to lose your eyes than have both of them to be cast into Hell,
John.
... When subtlety fails us, we must resort to cream pies.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOSH TALBOT
|Sub: "PROVE IT AIN'T TRUE!"
|Date: 11 Jan 96 13:53:00
EID:60fc 202b6ea0
JT> Hector, while Al is acting real dumb. You are acting like a
JT> total jerk. Just because you don't beleive his philosophy dosen't mean
JT> it's not true... for him.
Don't worry about it, Josh. I'm not to worried about the "real dumb"
tag....you'll get to know me better...but insofar as the second part is
concerned...
Nothing will change Hector.
... The race is over. The rats won.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: BLINK
|Date: 11 Jan 96 13:58:00
EID:d22a 202b6f40
HP> Al, that's _you_ talking about baby talk, remember? What's that
Certainly. It seems to be the only way to reach you.
HP> you're sucking again? Or are you implying that your definition of
HP> "baby talk" is kissing the baby? Even when you try an insult you make
HP> no sense. :-)
I must go BELOW baby talk to for you to make sense of it? Not suprised.
HP> Is it to the ultimate detriment of the child standing in the road if
HP> you pull them from the path of the speeding car, Al? Wouldn't
HP> "omnipotent, omniscient" gods be able to arrange intervention that
HP> would _not_ be to our "ultimate detriment?" Humans can.
Can we? Suppose there is an algorythym for every child to be saved
automatically when they get in danger. Then, how many children would be
abandoned? How many would not be looked after at all? Remember the case
a
year or so ago where the couple left their kids for several weeks in their
apartment while they vacationed in the Bahamas...unattended? There have
certainly been times in my life where, much as I love them, I wished I
could have left my children to their own devices. How much more so for
the occasional person who feels burdened by their own children. How many
mothers would like to leave their kids to their own devices while they
take a several week trip? But love is needed for a child, too. The
knowledge that someone is concerned. It has been shown in refugee
hospitals that if young children are not regularly held and personally
cared for, they can wither and die, from lack of love, solely. And those
who DO grow up without being felt loved by their parents often drift from
relationship to relationship, never settling in one, because they feel
themselves unworthy, because their parents did not show their concern. The
psychiatrists' couches are FULL of such.
HP> Your "logic" is uncoordinated. Your own ridiculous ideas are getting
HP> in the way of you thinking clearly on this point.
On the contrary, Hector...it is YOU who have not thought it through. As
can be shown by the above example.
AS> if my memory serves, was what I was asserting to Marilyn...remember?
HP> She calls it bullshit too, remember? :-)
Was that before or AFTER she twice called someone "Hector" or "doing a
Hector" when they cut-and-pasted a reply that distorted the original
meaning?
HP>> ROFL! Are you a puppet because you can't piss to the moon?
AS> No.
HP> :-) There, did that hurt?
Hardly. Never said you were a puppet because you can't do the impossible.
As I have said MANY TIMES, free will is the ability to do what one wants
within the range of one's abilities--physical abilities---without
something being "blocked" from your voluntary choices.
AS> But free will is not unlimited power.
HP> Of course not, Al, and that's rather the point, isn't it? :-) You
No; it is missing the point entirely, the way you are using it.
HP> might want to piss to the moon and find yourself unable to accomplish
HP> it. You might want to kill your neighbor, but find yourself unable
to
HP> accomplish it. You had free will but not the ability to harm others.
HP> Figuring this out yet?
Sure, I've figured out that you haven't the faintest idea what "free will"
means. And are only showing your own ignorance. If a child cannot overturn
a car, there is no restriction on the child TRYING to overturn the car.
You can certainly try to hit the moon in that novel fashion, if you wish.
You won't succeed in either case, but you can certainly TRY. Your will is
unfettered--"free". What you are describing in the lines below...
HP> it. You might want to kill your neighbor, but find yourself unable
to
HP> accomplish it. You had free will but not the ability to harm others.
is NOT "free" will. It is restricted will. It is not unfettered, it has
to
act within very definite constraints, even when it comes to intentions,
in
your scenario.
It's like telling someone they are free to go where they will, but don't
DARE go home. It makes a mockery of the very word "free".
HP>> Are you in torture because you can't piss to the moon?
AS> No.
HP> Gee, you appear to be debunked on that point, too, then, since you
HP> claimed that the inability to do something you might theoretically
HP> want to do would be torture. :-) Since you'll try to deny that, I'll
HP> remind you of this:
HP> =================================================================
AS> With an added measure of torture, because we would not
AS> be able to do what we intend to do
(Gentle smile) Read the above. There IS a difference between "intend" and
"want". I might WANT to win the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes.
But if I said I intend to do so, I would be making some definite
actions....say, filling out as many of the Sweepstakes entry forms as
possible. "Want" could be anything from a definite intention to a vague
wish. I might WANT Superman's abilities. I certainly don't intend to get
them. See the difference?
HP> =================================================================
HP>> Why are you dancing like that, Al? :-)
AS> I'm sitting comfortably.
HP> ROFL! You're squirming like a four-year-old who needs to piss BAD.
To
HP> the moon, perhaps? :-)
No. I'm sitting here comfortably, with enough sense to distinguish between
"want" and "intend". Go ahead and try, Hector. No one will stop you.
And...(gentle smile)...that's the point. NO ONE WILL STOP YOU...even if
you want to do a ludicrious act like the above. You can TRY all you want
to. Your scenario would keep anyone from even TRYING.
Thanks for making my point for me, Hector.
BTW, boobie.
DEBUNKED!!!!!
AS> Argument ad hominen
HP> Simple observation, Al. When your religious blinders get cinched
HP> down, you cease to apply logic.
Emphasis on the "simple". Read the above three times, and realize how
utterly you have debunked yourself. No one is stopping you from even
aiming at the moon, Hec.
No one.
But you would deny the choice in the example cited.
But we have free will, just like I have the free will to realize how
utterly you have destroyed your own argument and go
BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAHAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
at you.
... Keep a holy curiosity.--Einstein.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: BOTH LANES
|Date: 11 Jan 96 13:59:00
EID:488d 202b6f60
HP>> I know, just throwing my two cents without reference to Al "I'll put
HP>> my twelve mythological characters up against your thousands of
HP>> witnesses any day" Schroeder.
AS> You have thousands of witnesses on what happened in Palestine? (No,
I know
AS> you are talking about people raising from the dead, couldn't resist...)
HP> ROFL! Al, we were talking about UFOs, not dead people jumping up and
HP> flying away. Your reading comprehension has apparently fallen to zip.
MY reading comprehension has fallen to zip? Odd. Because, you notice
that YOU say...
HP>> I know, just throwing my two cents without reference to Al "I'll put
HP>> my twelve mythological characters up against your thousands of
Which twelve mythological characters are you referring to, if you are
talking about UFOs?
I would lay off the electroshock therapy, Hector. It obviously is not
good for you and your comprehension levels.
... I've compiled a list of your faults. It comes in 10 volumes.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: RONALD VASS
|Sub: HEAVENLY AND DAZED
|Date: 11 Jan 96 14:05:00
EID:87b1 202b70a0
RV> But to Al , and Mike ,and any current bible thumpers , they weren't
RV> Real True Christians , never fear , if they had their way , It would
RV> happen again .After all the current bible ,says it Aok , to kill
RV> off those who don't buy into their lies.
It's amazing how someone can read "turn the other cheek" and "he who is
without sin cast the first stone" and get that out of it. Not blaming you,
Ronald, because there have been many Christians who have similarly misread
it. And no, I do not say that are not "real, true" Christians, but I do
say they have not read the sayings of the Lord very carefully.
RV> Well maybe not Al , he might think about it , but at this point in
RV> his life , i don't think he would try to stop it.
I can only assure you you are mistaken on that point. But talk is cheap.
You will get to know me better.
... "An eye for an eye" only ends up making the whole world blind ...
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: INTO.
|Date: 11 Jan 96 14:08:00
EID:52a1 202b7100
DC> After all, Al, it's the Pope that Prewitt's out to get!
DC> Shame on you for getting his target wrong....
AS> You're right. WhatEVER was I thinking of?
JP>
JP> I have not threatened to kill anyone.
Glad to hear it.
JP> Sad to see "christians" share a lie with a heathen.
Again, sense of humor as dead as a doornail. No one thinks --or at least
we HOPE--that you wouldn't kill anyone. But in all honesty, if we found
out tomorrow that you were arrested for trying to shoot the Pope, quite
frankly, not a lot of us would be shocked out of our gourds. You assert
that JFK will come back as the Antichrist. You do realize that it makes
you sound nuttier than a jar of Planter's, don't you? Now, hey, you might
be right. I can't totally rule it out. But at the very least it is an
unusual claim. You have demonstrated, again and again, vehemence bordering
on fanaticism when it concerns the Roman Catholic faith.
If someone said at a HS gathering that I would kill Hector, I would have
just smiled and said, "Nyaaah, I would time him up in front of the 700
club until he cracked," or something like that and make a joke about it.
If you don't like the way you are perceived, than by all means change
your image. Don't blame us.
JP> You do call yourself a "christian", don't you ?
Yes indeed. Even without the quotes around Christian. Notice you are
perfectly free to feel that Roman Catholics are mistaken. Jesus did as
much when He said to the Samaritian woman, "Salvation is with the Jews,"
asserting that the Samaritans are mistaken. But notice also WHO he uses
in
the parable of the "good Samaritan"---a person espousing a type of faith
that most Jews regarded as a heresy and an abomination about their fatih.
Reread it as "the good Roman Catholic" where two Protestants passed you
along the way after you had been beaten by robbers, but a Roman Catholic
priest helped you, treated your wounds, etc. Then ask yourself whom Jesus
would say is your neighbor. Whom you are to love as yourself.
... The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.-H.P. Lovecraft
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: INTO.
|Date: 11 Jan 96 14:10:00
EID:bdb2 202b7140
JH> Better yet.... wear a Roman collar AND a rubber JFK mask.
JH> Carry a shepherds crook for added effect.
AS> And the fisherman's ring...
JH> But don't be so sure he'll try and kill you. It's even
JH> money that he'll fall down and worship you.
AS> Or at least scream out,"SEE!!! I WAS RIGHT..."
LB> Should I add a Marilyn Monroe look to the nun outfit?
Hmmm. (lustful thoughts here.) Marilyn Monroe dressed up as a nun...no,
better not. That conjures up thoughts and fantasies that get kinky in the
EXTREME...
But I might convert to Catholicism just to see how many "Hail Marys" I
would have to say after my first confession after such an incident...
... Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: A DAY IN THE LIFE...
|Date: 13 Jan 96 18:13:00
EID:a540 202d91a0
AS> ...And the demon Tarotica who is directing the cards, of course.
(I wonder if anyone will take me seriously about the demon Tarotica?)
JB> Maria will
I've probably left myself open for 'apostate Christians who have dabbled
in the occult' now...even though I was fifteen when I did it.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: GLEN ZILLY
|Sub: GET SERIOUS!
|Date: 13 Jan 96 18:50:00
EID:c8ac 202d9640
-=> Quoting Glen Zilly to Michael Hardy <=-
GZ> Mike,
GZ> In a message to Dan Ceppa you stated Saul (who later became
GZ> known as Paul) started Christianity. Here are my comments on your
GZ> claim.
Glen---and you REALLY need to get an off-line reader so you can quote...I
know Micheal too well to think he said any such thing. He might have
corrected Dan on a point about Paul, but it is basically DAN's thesis that
Paul created Christianity. Since you are relatively new here (and no shame
in that) let me give you the score card. Myself, Micheal, Lynda, Jesse,
Dave Oosterman (when he posts), James Staal/Lou S. Mabon, his brother Mark
Staal, Maria Russell and (gritting teeth here) Christian Miller are all
Christians, or in that last case, claim to be, anyway. MOST of the others
are non-theists or followers of neopagan religions. Jesse and Lynda are
fairly liberal, Michael's semi-liberal as is Dave, the rest are pretty
conservative, but I don't think ANY of us believe Christianity was an
invention of Paul's solely. Certainly Micheal doesn't.
GZ> 1. Do you have any evidence besides your hearsay excuses.
GZ> 2. Here's evidence I have that would suggest your claim to be false.
GZ> 1. The Christian Church was established before any of Saul's
GZ> teachings and journeys.
GZ> 2. Saul was a persecutor of Christians of the early church. Would he
GZ> start a religion and then persecute those who follow it?
GZ> 3. Saul had no ties to Jesus during his time on Earth. How would he
GZ> then be able to use him as a basis for a religion?
GZ> 4. Acts which is the Biblical history of the start of the Christian
GZ> church was not written by Saul (supposedly written by the author of
GZ> Luke.) nor was Saul included until his meeting with Jesus on the road.
GZ> 5. Why would Saul, being of high status in Roman government, start a
GZ> religion that would promote the Romans to persecute him?
GZ> Now it's your turn to give me five good reasons in support of
GZ> your claim.
GZ> May God Bless you.
GZ> Glen
If you would get on off-line mail reader, like Blue Wave or Silver Express
it would help you greatly. And you would be able to read more posts and
get more of a "feel" for the echo. I assure you that you are quite
mistaken in your assertion about Micheal, and if he DID say it, he was
just echoing Dan's claims.
Got a question on (5) though. What high status? Being born into Roman
citizenship was fine, but that certainly doesn't imply he had any legal
responsibilities beyond that...you make it sound like he was a prelate or
something.
... "To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." -Sun Tzu
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: INTO.
|Date: 13 Jan 96 18:57:00
EID:52a1 202d9720
AS> Or I could come in dressed as a Roman Catholic Priest and see who
AS> would try to kill me, and I'd know he was John Prewitt.
JP> Your dishonest slander is noted.
AS> Your lack of humor is likewise.
JP>
JP> Next time, at least use a smiley.
Mea culpa. I thought it was obvious in the circumstances.
JP> Then I'll know your slander of me is humorous.
*Sigh* At least, if I had said, if I wore a t-shirt that said, "Hi, I'm
Al," and then said Hector would try to kill me, he wouldn't POUT about it.
He would give as good as he got.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: RE: QUESTIONING ALL BUT T
|Date: 13 Jan 96 19:38:00
EID:8b52 202d9cc0
AS> Because no one has begun to make a credible claim. Most of the
AS> claimants are people who did not know Elvis in life, or at
AS> most, just saw him on stage. And most of the claims are
AS> sheer lies to build up sales for taboids like the Enquirer.
MG> How many of those that claimed to see Jesus both immediatly after his
MG> death and today saw him in person? How many could see Jesus OR Elvis
MG> and sell it to the Enquirer?
Marty, I REALLY don't understand your first question. Unless you know
Ahaseurus, the Wandering Jew, personally, I don't know of ANYONE who
claimed to see Jesus immediately after his death and today. That would
make them, what, 2000 years old? Or do you mean by "both" how many of the
original disciples saw him in person? According to Matthew, Luke, John,
Acts, and Paul, all of them. And they would know Him by sight. Some might
claim to see Jesus today--I can think of a local moderator of a Fidonet
religious echo who makes that claim---but of course, he didn't know Jesus
when alive, so he can't REALLY say who he's seeing, or thinks he's seeing.
A lot could sell such a story to the Enquirer, but of course, would it be
believed? For a long while the Enquirer asserted there was trouble between
Charles and Diana almost since the honeymoon. But a lot of us didn't
believe it until it was confirmed by something else. I certainly doubt
there are a lot of people who would risk DEATH for an assertion in the
Enquirer.
... Not allowed? My dear fellow, I'm allowed everywhere. - Doctor Who
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DICK HOLM
|Sub: RE: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 13 Jan 96 19:51:00
EID:6548 202d9e60
MB> But Paul claims he DID see the risen Christ, so it DOES wash.
DH> I don't know Al's stand on this, but the verb "to see" does not
DH> always mean with the eyes. Certainly those who were with Paul claim
DH> not to have seen what he did. Therefore, what Paul SAW does not have
DH> to be a physical manifestation. Probably not even a vision.
DH> Paul had been persecuting (and prosecuting) Christians for some time.
DH> He had heard the Jesus story countless times. Now, on the road to
DH> Damascus, he "sees" the truth of the stories; he "sees" Jesus.
DH> My interpretation, but it fits the facts as best we can deduce them.
Then, Dick, my question to you is the same as my question to Marilyn. Why
does Paul assert himself to be an APOSTLE, which is one to have seen the
risen Christ? Why does he elevate himself to that very select company?
Surely if it only meant he "sees" the truth, then every believers he
addressed in his numerous epistles would be an "apostle" also. But he
makes it clear he thinks he has special authority, and is basing it on his
apostleship. Why does he assert Jesus appeared "last of all" to him in 1
Corinthians, when every other later convert would be later than he is?
I have no problem seeing it as a vision, although it is asserted the
companions heard the voice, but could not understand the words. But I do
think the preponderance of evidence is squarely on PAUL, at least,
asserting a vision of Jesus. If you would rather see it as a hallucination
brought on by the collective guilt of persecuting so many people, you may,
certainly. I see it more a vision sent by God (which would explain more
the things Paul was able to DO afterwards, according to Acts.) but I have
no problem with the other interpretation. I DO have a problem with the
"sees the truth" version, which makes no sense if you take all of Paul's
words into account.
Nice to see some intelligent posting in here, and don't read my
disagreement for animosity, which it isn't. Glad to see you post. It looks
like you might bring some interesting discussions into here.
... My apologies if that made any sense at all...
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID JOHNSTON
|Sub: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 13 Jan 96 20:11:00
EID:8ef1 202da160
-> scientific viewpoint. But such a stand has no predictive or testable
-> power, whereas the Designer idea might ALSO explain the altruistic
-> impulses above and beyond genetic and societal necessity, in man and
-> other
DJ> This is unnecessary. The evolutionary advantages of an altruistic
DJ> disposition are obvious to anyone who examines the question in more
DJ> than a superficial way.
There is nothing so misleading as the obvious, I think you will find.
Certainly SOME types of altruism makes sense evolutionarily. I am not
unaware of some of the advances in games theory which suggests reasonable
altruism in a population might give an advantage to a population. But...
Okay, let's assume a home of Alzheimer's patients catches fire. There is
a woman on the top floor, wondering what is going on. She is well past
childbearing age. A fireman shows up. He is young, intelligent, strong,
and hasn't had children yet.
That fireman will plunge into the flames and risk his life to save a
woman who cannot remember things from one minute to another, and can
contribute no more to the genetic mainstream. He KNOWS this. And yet he
reacts the same way anyway. He can contribute much more to the well-being
of the race than she can. She will die in a few years anyway. Why does he
do it???
Granted, it is WONDERFUL that he does. I have my hat off to him.
But the origin of the impulse is mysterious. People who aren't firemen
have done the same. How many people have drowned trying to reach a
drowning child?
And---before you say, well, the altruistic impulse is so strong that it
doesn't discriminate...then why, in times of war, will that fireman, if
drafted or enlisted, take pot shots at someone who is EQUALLY important
to
the future of the human race---simply because they live in another
country? Because they live across an IMAGINARY LINE? That is the amazing
thing about war. It is literally fought over nothing...there is nothing
that distinguishes French soil from German soil, save the crossing of an
imaginary line...
And what's even sillier, BOTH do it on the orders of those who are old
and already had children, for the most part...
I have three children, and two are autistic, so I want to make sure you
understand what I'm about to say I am NOT advocating, just
questioning...if our altruistic impulses are molded by evolution, which
implies survival of the fittest, why do we not get rid of those who keep
us from maintaining ONLY the fittest? The mentally deficient, the
physically handicapped, those with heriditary diseases like heamophilia?
A
very few contribute more than they take from society--a Steve Hawking, a
Milton, an FDR, a Temple Grandin. The rest are just a drain on our
resources. But most people feel that such would be inhuman, and many other
societies feel the same. The Eskimos sometimes set adrift one who was so
old that he put a drain on their population, and the Nazis killed the
mentally deficient. Such societies are few and far between. Oftentimes,
ancient cultures would keep the mad as "holy".
Tell me again about "obvious". Because if you will think about it, it is
anything BUT obvious.
... Rational information in arguments not permitted here.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: [2/3] BIBLE FOLLIES
|Date: 13 Jan 96 20:22:00
EID:7245 202da2c0
JB> That was my first thought. She also mentioned never hearing about
JB> any PTA meetings. The schools here like to save on postage by sending
JB> home the notices with the students. I can't begin to tell you how many
JB> I missed that way.
I wish, personally, I could get AWAY from hearing about PTA meetings.
(They call it PTO locally, not sure why). The first big meeting of the
year is also the one where you meet the teacher, so sometimes you have to
sit through an interminally long meeting just to get to meet the teacher.
Barb REALLY doesn't like to sit through these things or even meet the
teacher more than she can help, so guess who's elected?
Have Maria move down here. I GUARENTEE she'll hear about PTA meetings.
... Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: GWENNY THE POOH
|Sub: PAUL
|Date: 13 Jan 96 21:00:00
EID:7b66 202da800
MH> Just one minor correction -- Paul was very much a Jew. He was not
MH> Roman. (Until later on in his missionary career, when he was roamin'
MH> all over the place ... ) :)
GTP> Not according to his own words. Acts 22:27-28--The commander went
to
GTP> Paul and asked, "Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?" "Yes, I am," he
GTP> answered. The the commander said, "I had to pay a big price for my
GTP> citizenship" "But I was born a citizen," Paul replied. (NIV)
Yeah, but ROMAN citizenship was not a matter of WHERE you were born, and
a
Jew could be it as much as anyone else. You could be born into it, you
could earn it, or you could buy it. In Seutonius' THE TWELVE CEASARS,
Augustus, 47, even whole states were granted citizenship. "Finding that
certain city-states which had treaties of alliance with Rome were ruining
themselves through political irresponsibility, he took away their
independence; but also granted subsidies to others crippled by public
debts, rebuilt some cities which had been devastated by earthquakes, and
EVEN AWARDED FULL CITIZENSHIP to states that could show a record of
faithful service in the Roman cause." In the same book, in the section
under Nero, 12, "also a ballet performance by certain young Greeks
to whom he presented certificates of Roman citizenship when their show
ended." Strong's Concordance also mentions Tacitus Annal. I. 38, Dio Cass.
xli. 24, and Josephus' Antiquities asserts that many Jews who were Roman
citizens were scattered over Greece and Asia Minor (Ant. xiv, 10,13, and
14). The NIV Study Bible asserts, "By 171 B.C. a large number of Jews were
citizens of Tarsus, and in the time of Pompey (106-48) some of these could
have received Roman citizenship as well." No one knows how Paul's father
or
ancestors gained citzenship, but since they appeared to be merchants
(tentmakers, it seems) they might have had the money to purchase one, and
it certainly came in handy, mitigating the punishment that could be
inflicted on them.
Sorry, Gwenny. This is one of those where the meaning has changed a lot.
Roman citizenship and say, American citizenship, are two entirely
different things.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: WHITE-LIGHTER RELIGIO
|Date: 13 Jan 96 21:03:00
EID:0cd4 202da860
AS> I usually don't flame others' sincere beliefs, but since Levey is
JB> I wonder if he knows that LaVey is an ex-carny?
I didn't know that. But let's just say it doesn't really SURPRISE me,
either. The only good thing I can say about LaVey is that he is fairly
honest about it being a con. That's more than you can say for L.Ron
Hubbard or the Bakkers.
... Everyone is of some use, if only to set a bad example.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DICK HOLM
|Sub: RE: ----
|Date: 13 Jan 96 21:06:00
EID:accb 202da8c0
DH> You're right, David. And I believe he DID return, as promised. A lot
DH> of Christians would probably disagree, but the only event which comes
DH> close is the Pentecost event in Acts 2. Here it is only the Spirit
DH> returning, while most folks expected a physical return of some sort.
DH> But I think there is sufficient biblical evidence to support such a
DH> view. Besides, he didn't arrive as the kind of Messiah they expected
DH> the first time, why should he do what was expected the second time?
You know, I don't believe I've EVER heard that theory before. I personally
like the "hey, Jesus was wrong" explanation better, but it's a fascinating
thought. Thanks!
DH> (1) John 1. Vs. 18 suggests that no one has seen God. Since people
DH> have seen Jesus, he can't be God.
Hmmm. That seems merely an echo of Exodus 33:20, and seems to refer only
that Man cannot see God in His full glory. Remember the line in
Phillipians 2:6, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ
JEsus, who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature
of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance
as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obediant unto death, even death
on a cross!" It implies that Jesus is a lowering of part of God to be put
into human form, not the full glory thereof. Remember, John also, in
10:30, has Jesus say, "I and my Father are one." Or John 12:45. "And he
who seeth me seeth Him who sent me."
DH> Vs. 1. In the beginning was the word, and the word *was* God.
DH> Therfore the word cannot refer to Jesus.
Hmmm. Why? It is clearly implying Jesus was the word and the light. "In
the beginning ws the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God. He was with God from the beginning.
"Through Him all things were made, without Him nothing was made that has
been made. In Him was life, adn that life was the light of men. The light
shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
Then, skip a little further, to John 1:14. "The Word became flesh, and
made His dwelling among us. We have sen the glory, the glory of the One
and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
"John testifies concerning Him. He cries out, saying, 'This was He of
whom I said, 'He who comes after me has suprassed me because He was
before me.'"
Then skip down to John 1:29. "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward
him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
This is the one I meant when I said, 'One who comes after me has surpassed
me because He was before me.'"
I don't see any other way to read those verses than to conclude, in
John's mind, The Word=the light=Jesus.
DH> vs. 14. The word became flesh. The only rational possibility, given
DH> the way John presents it and the way the church has preserved it, is
DH> that the word is the spirit of God, which became flesh and indwelt in
DH> the human Jesus. This same spirit spoke through Jesus, and returned
as
DH> the Comforter (John's term) on Pentecost.
So perhaps you adopt an adoptinist stance? That Jesus was only divine
when the Spirit indwelt in Him in John's baptism, and after?
DH> If this is a valid interpretation, then it is also valid to suggest
DH> that the spirit of Jesus returned at Pentecost.
DH> Further, we really don't have a good grasp even now of the
DH> spirit-world. We don't know how solid a spirit can appear to be.
DH> Following the resurrection, Jesus *appeared* to numerous people.
DH> However, this Jesus also pulled off some non-physical things, like
DH> disappearing at a meal in Emmaus, and reappearing behind locked doors
DH> in Jerusalem. What WAS the cause of the myths handed down to our
DH> times?
It's interesting, because despite of Jesus doing non-physical things, like
appearing through locked doors, He was still solid enough to sit down and
eat and be touched and to touch others. Almost as if He were MORE solid,
not less, than us. As if WE were the ghosts, if we were the nearly
insubstantial ones. As if He were on a higher plane, MORE real than what
we consider reality.
Feel free to comment.
... Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: Douglas Duke
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SNOW IN THE BIBLE?
|Date: 15 Jan 96 00:04:10
EID:cf66 202f0080
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 30f9ee5a
DD> Of course it rained before Noah.
JB> You might want to take that up with Maria Russell
JB> and several others here
JB> who all say it didn't and that's why the flood was
JB> able to cover the whole
JB> earth. That all that water was held in a 'vapor
JB> canopy' above the earth.
JB> How anything was supposed to live without rain (or sunlight, which the
JB> supposed vapor canopy would have totally blocked),
JB> they have never been
JB> able to answer.
Of course. The vegetation was designed for rain plus a 24 hour
lighting period of about 1/2 or 12 hours of light from the sun.
Some have imagined a loooonnnnggg day in the beginning. But, say
the day was 500 years long. One side of the earth would burn up.
The other side of the earth would freeze. Vegetation could not
survive!
Maranatha Bible alone!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Skeeter Haven Nashville TN (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Jealous God
|Date: 17 Jan 96 14:26:00
EID:09e5 20317340
PID: RA 2.02 143
MSGID: 1:128/203 569ba4a0
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89060E2F
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
>> I think I have a tagline that works for that imagry!
>> DC> ... MACARONI NETWORK: Oodles of noodles for Jesus!
>> LW> Great Tagline! Consider it adopted.
>> I think I stole that one from Scot Bear. One of these days,
>> I'm
>> going to have to re-edit my files and make that part of the
>> +Origin
>> group.
Grin!!!
>> ... How do you get a lawyer out of a tree? Cut the rope.
THAT's funny!!!
---
* Origin: A-viking on the cyber sea (1:128/203)
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 17 Jan 96 14:28:00
EID:1b06 20317380
PID: RA 2.02 143
MSGID: 1:128/203 569ba516
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
>> LW> Yeppers! They make nice pets, too. Hmmmmmm.....Methinks
>> Valhalla....
>> Not really. They eat too much and take forever to
>> housebreak.
Not if you train 'em like Pavlov's dogs!
---
* Origin: A-viking on the cyber sea (1:128/203)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: new echo?
|Date: 17 Jan 96 15:07:08
EID:19be 203178e0
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 30fd10c9
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4c939073
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
*** Answering a msg posted in area Gwenny's private area [POOHBEAR].
Heilsa, Katherine Wintersnight!
Tuesday January 16 1996 17:48, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Gwenny The
Pooh:
KW> gods crap, and then told me I would make a *good* Mormon. We still
get
KW> along mostly because we came to an understanding that if she EVER gave
KW> my name to their missionaries again, I would put her name on every New
KW> Age, Pagan, and 7th Day Adventist mailing list I could find.
And don't forget the Witlesses.
Ves thu heil und Gut Jul,
Glen Todd
Bring back the snakes -- Ireland was better off Pagan!
... Coming this fall: Bible v. 1.1994! (Real Soon Now!)
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Listen, warriors of the Old Gods (FidoNet 1:128/203)
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|From: Ross Catto
|To: Josh Talbot
|Sub: The Christian bible
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:09:00
EID:3ee4 20318920
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 23d28a56
--> Now doesn't this sound like the perfect situation to alter a
--> document to reflect the views of the priest class? In fact
--> the priest classes editorship was not compleate.
---
No good. There are hundreds of manuscripts that go back well
before the middle ages. Any major alterations in the Bible by
Christians would have had to take place 30-400 AD.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0348
* Origin: FidoNet: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario (1:229/15)
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: HAVE A HAPPY
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:48
EID:e3bd 20316460
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Dick Holm <=-
DH> 4. He knows and sees, and chooses to let humans deal with these
DH> injustices.
MB> And seeing our failure, does nothing. More indifference.
Are you indifferent when you allow youyr children to make their own
choices? How do you deal with their failures?
DH> 5. He doesn't know.
MB> Scratch "omnipotence."
Check your terminology. I think you would like to scratch "omnniscience."
DH> 6. He knows and sees, and does nothing because he's pissed off at
DH> humankind.
MB> Scratch "loving."
That's why I don't like this one.
DH> 7. (Keep going, there's lot's more.)
DH> My personal preference is # 4.
MB> Fine. That's nothing but another form of indifference. At least
MB> you're honest about it, but your god is hardly one I can admire,
MB> respect, or worship. The best that can be said for him is that
MB> he's human.
Nope. There's a rather large difference between "indifference" and
"allowing freedom." There are times when I have to allow my children
the freedom to make their own wrong choices. There are times when they
stubbornly go ahead regardless. All I can do is wait for them to
invite my assistance. It is not an easy or comfortable role for me; I'd
much rather tell them what to do and how to do it, and then FORCE them
to do it my way. I can't. They wouldn't grow, except in anger and
resentment, and of course, greater obstinacy. Still, I'm here for them
whenever they ask.
What was it that hurt you so badly?
DH> How does the universe exist?
DH> 1. It appears to exist by development - the simpler to the more
DH> complex; in atomic development, in molecular development, in genetic
DH> development, in intellectual development, (and perhaps in spiritual
DH> development).
DH> 2. Development seems to exist only by challenge; i.e., growth only
DH> takes place in any of these areas when the status quo is challenged.
DH> (Hydrogen atoms 'develop' into helium only under the challenge of
DH> enormous gravity and heat - called a star. Humanity develops only
DH> under the challenge of curiosity, or whatever).
MB> If this is true, it is because you god made it the way it is. So,
MB> we are back to suffering being HIS choice. Indifference.
Why do you assume that allowing suffering is indifference? As a matter
of fact, if you include pain as suffering, then you have to concede that
God HAS done something. Endorphins - natural pain killers. Healing -
for physical, mental, and spiritual pain.
DH> 3. Growth is painful. Hydrogen is stripped of electrons. Humanity is
DH> stripped of prejudices. Not all hydrogen becomes helium. Not all
DH> humans outgrow prejudice. But pain, and suffering, seem to be a part
DH> of development.
DH> 4. Why does God want growth? My guess is to develop the human spirit.
DH> Why MUST growth be painful? I have no really good idea. Therefore I
DH> can't give a good answer as toi why God allows suffering. My own
DH> opinion is that it has something to do with free will.
MB> No, then you are left trying to find excuses for your god's
MB> indifference. Give it up. Go find a better brand of god.
Have YOU got one to pass along? Do you have any better way of explaining
what we find, or any better way to deal with the world as we find it?
... When you've eliminated all else .... consider the impossible
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Maria Russell
|Sub: Re: flood
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:49
EID:263c 20316460
-=> Quoting Maria Russell to Dick Holm <=-
DH> If one never existed. One what? One story? One flood?
MR>
MR> Flood.
Not just one - many. There is no area in the world, that I am aware of,
that hasn't had its share of floods. And it doesn't have to be THAT big
a flood to begin a story. And you know how fish stories grow the further
you get away from the fish. Flood stories do the same.
DH> The point is that there are many stories because there are many
DH> floods.
MR>
MR> I find it odd that most of the culture's "flood stories" are rather
MR> similar, to me denoting ONE big flood.
How many variations can you get to a flood . Lots of water. Somebody
escapes, usually by his own craftiness or ability. Others drown. Anything
else is simply a varuiation on the theme.
DH> Always have been. Some of those floods have covered some
DH> pretty big territory. Evidence of a single world-wide deluge simply
DH> does NOT exist.
MR>
MR> I'm not yet willing to rule the possibility out.
DH> Evidence of land that has been underwater at some
DH> time exists almost world-wide.
MR> What percentage has been shown to be underwater?
I have absolutely no idea. I know that the Himalayas were once under
water, as I have seen TV shows demostrating the fossil finds. I know that
my part of Ontario has been under water, as we have limestone deposits
underground, and also above ground (Niagara escarpment). I know that
Virginia had some pretty severe flooding last summer, as I vacationed
there a week later. I've seen newstapes of other floods. I have not
checked any further. No interest.
... What you don't know can still kill you.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Maria Russell
|Sub: Re: God and his children
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:50
EID:eb5e 20316460
-=> Quoting Maria Russell to Dick Holm <=-
MR> For a non-believer your statement was quite profound.
There you go, making assumptions again. You assume that the bible is
literally true. You assume I'm a non-believer. You are wrong on
both counts. The fact that I do not agree with your assumptions does
not make my interpretation of the scriptuures wrong, nor does it make
me an unbeliever. I believe in God the creator. I believe that he gave
us his son to demonstrate his love, grace, forgiveness, and eternal
life. Anything more is simply the ruminations of individuals whose
experience is different from mine.
... The truth will set you free, but first it will make you damn mad.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: CONSIDER...
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:51
EID:93c3 20316460
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Dick Holm <=-
DH> perfection can co-exist? I can't. When I conceibve of perfection,
DH> it would mean no pain, injustice, hunger. There would thus be no
DH> motivation, as we conceive of that word, so we would no longer be
DC> Makes going to heaven to be perfect seem rather dull, doesn't it.
Nope. I've had a few days in a row that I would have described as
perfect. I think I could live that way all right. Although perfection
would not have to be without its challenges.
... The devil made me do it - and I helped him all I could.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Jealous God
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:52
EID:ca83 20316460
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Dick Holm <=-
-> On 01-04-96 09:56, Dick Holm got back to Dan Ceppa
JJ> to the Hebrews that they can serve only one God.
DC> By implication, that means that there are more than one god.
DH>
DH> Yup. That mythos lasted right through till at least 600 B.C. and a
DH> little longer.
DC> Got a reference that I can use for that?
Good bible commentaries prepared for mainline denominations usually
show such things. The Interpreter's Bible (12 volumes) has such
references, but you have to dig them out. I think the last one I read
was Asimov's Guide to the Bible (Two volumes in one) by Isaac Asimov.
JJ> was not monotheistic, and did not become firmly so unt after the
DC> Which means that you know that your religion was not monotheistic from
DC> the beginning.
DC> Seems like Jesse hinted at one!
DH> Yup. Actually, it was quite animistic at one time. Also note how
DH> Abraham tried to divine the future by cutting birds and animals in
DC> Yet, now that is verbotten!
Some would see it that way. Others just consider it useless.
DC> your god isn't much of a god, but is more like a whinney little
DC> brat that should be sentenced to eternity in a corner for his
DH> the universe according to most fundies, it's like a house, with God
in
DH> the attic watching humanity through a peephole to see if he can catch
DH> them in a sin, preferably a sexual one, so he can consign them to the
DC> God's a vouyeur, then... What a sick puupy!
DH> revenge. I believe in God, but not that one.
DC> If I believed in a god, it sure wouldn't be the one that they do!
That was my point. But if you listen to most fundamentalist preachers,
isn't my description above a pretty accurate way of describing what
you hear? I use the same bible they do, but I sure don't see the same
God they do.
... If you don't care where you're going, you can't get lost.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: reasons
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:53
EID:30ff 20316460
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Dick Holm <=-
DH> First, the biblical accounts are not uniform. Using the bible as firm
DC> They, most often, are not even in marginal jucnture with independent
DC> records of the tmeframe they claim to protray.
Many of the purported historical accounts are anachronistic; i.e., they
try to convey an historical impression of a certain era, but they include
information that could only have been known at a later time, but that
gives us the means by which the time of writing is dated.
DH> bible is a collection of accounts. Thus it is not just a 'single'
DH> source. On the other hand, a literal, physical body for the
DC> No, it's a many times rewrite of creation myths.
Yup. No problem with that. Everybody who didn't see his favourite bit
of theology included just HAD to get his fingers in the pie and change
a thing or two.
DH> There is no way to support or dispute the amount of 'evidence' or
DC> As you note, evedence, as you stated, is 'evidence'. There is none
DC> to back the most important claims.
Not sure what you consider the most important claims.
DH> of the experience, it only means that we who read the account are
DH> forced to consider what the author was attempting to convey by the
DC> Which makes it all very biased, as the evidence is sorely lacking.
Of course. But all religion is sorely biased, which is what usually makes
religious people sore. Only those who do not recognize bias and look
for it, though, are the ones who will wind up looking foolish.
... The smoke you smell is not from transistors. My brain is frying.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: Outspoken Freedom (519) 421-3164, Woodstock, ON (1:221/1155)
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:54
EID:ddde 20316460
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Dick Holm <=-
DH> There is no "evidence" that God did or did not create the world. Your
DH> demand is simply unsupportable from either point of view.
HP> irrelevant adj. Unrelated to the matter at hand.
HP> nonexistence n. Something that does not exist.
HP> Wouldn't you agree that something that leaves no evidence is properly
HP> described by the adjective form of one or the other of the words
HP> above? If not, why not?
Irrevlevant. Everyone chooses a world-view. That world-view determines
how you live within it. Therefore the matter is not irrelevant.
Non-existent. There is no evidence for telepathy, ghosts, aliens, or
woodchucks chucking wood. There is no guarantee that any of these
things do or do not exist. BTW, woodchucks WILL chuck wood if there is
some buried in the path they are burrowing. There is just no evidence
that they have ever run across buried wood.
Much of what we accept as evidence today regarding many chemical and
scientific discoveries was not evident just a few decades ago.
On the other hand, we accept a number of things without evidence.
There is no evidence that Jimmy Hoffa is dead. It is assumed on the basis
that he has not been seen publicly for quite some time. Does that make
Jimmy Hoffa's death a non-existent fact.
Similarly, people have been tried and convicted of murder even though
no body was ever found.
For many people, the profound inter-relationships within the entire
universe suggests evidence of a directing mind. How one chooses to
interpret that evidence is the real question.
... The smoke you smell is not from transistors. My brain is frying.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: Outspoken Freedom (519) 421-3164, Woodstock, ON (1:221/1155)
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: Fundamentalist Are In
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:55
EID:ef64 20316460
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Dick Holm <=-
DH> God doesn't change
HP> Unevidenced assertion. There's no evidence that gods exist (outside
HP> the human imagination), remember? And if one did, you yourself
HP> introduced evidence that the gods _do_ change:
I'm sorry, I've forgotten the context of this sentence, and since I
generally don't foget periods, it may have been taken out of context.
DH> human concepts of God HAVE changed over the centuries.
HP> If a god or gods exist, and if it/they make itself/themselves known
to
HP> humans through "revelations," and if those holybooks to which we have
HP> access do indeed record such "revelations" (i.e. if we grant you your
HP> premise, solely for the sake of argument), you have pointed out that
HP> those very revelations seem to show that the god(s) do(es), in fact,
HP> change over time.
Careful. You're saying things in a way in which I wouldn't say them.
I haven't studied any holy books other than the bible, so I can't speak
about them. And I wouldn't generally use the word revelations, although
there are a few times when the word might apply.
I'm also not certain whether you are arguing that, because a concept
of God has changed, God himself has changed. That's a non sequitur, and
I'm assuming you didn't intend it that way.
The possibility that God changes exists. The probability, according
to theological consideration, is that he does not change. Only human
perception of him changes, and that has DEFINITELY changed over the
millenia.
My own concepts of God have changed through childhood, teen years,
adutlhood, marriage and parenting. I'm assuming (in fact hoping) that
my concepts will continue to change (although I'm thinking more in
terms of 'refining' the concepts). :-) Personally, I don't really like
change, I just know it's necessary to avoid stagnation.
... Blame a fart on what you eat only if you can't blame someone else.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Outspoken Freedom (519) 421-3164, Woodstock, ON (1:221/1155)
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Re: CHURCHES
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:56
EID:2e70 20316460
-=> Quoting John Prewett to Dick Holm <=-
JP> Paul would have reviled the papacy much more eloquently
JP> than I am gifted to do.
JP> Paul would have a raving fit against the papacy.
JP> Cause, unlike you, Paul cared about the salvation of eternal
JP> souls, and Paul would plainly see that Roman Catholicism is a way
JP> to hell. WBW, John
Paul would have done no such thing. How you can spout such folly is
beyond me.
JP> The following is a correlation of some of the Revelations
JP> descriptions, and the unique fulfillment found in known facts
JP> regarding the Vatican.
JP> From chapters 17-18- ['IFO' = 'In Fulfillment Of']
JP> 17:2 '.....with whom the kings of the earth committed immorality..'.
JP> IFO 17:2 - The immoral ties of the Vatican with earthly rulers
JP> are presently and historically verifiable.
Your interpretation of Revelation shows no concept whatever of
either the nature of apocalyptic material nor of John's thought.
As you assume, Babylon is certainly an image of Rome, but it is the
Rome of John's time, not ours. Most literalists and fundamentalists
make the common mistake of assuming that what they read refers to
the present time, when in fact it refers directly to the time of the
author.
Therefore the image of the prostitute is the state of Rome, not the
church of Rome, about which John knew nothing. The seven heads refer
to the heads of state, not the head of the church, and the concept of
horns is that of political power. The blasphemous names are those of the
Roman pantheon.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with Rome. What does that mean?
It simply means that they accepted the authority of Rome to maintain
their own positions of power. The inhabitants of the earth were
intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries, accepting the power of Rome
to maintain the Pax Romana.
JP> 17:4 '.....and the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet...'.
JP> IFO 17:4 - Find a picture of the Cardinals in full costume.
Purple and scarlet were the colours of the rich and powerful, those who
made the laws, the senators and the merchants.
JP> 17:5 '.....Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots....'.
JP> IFO 17:5 - The Vatican calls herself the 'mother' 'church'
JP> because the other 'churches' came out of her.
JP> The other 'churches' share her perversion.
By your logic you yourself share this perversion, because ALL christian
churches come out of the church of Rome. No one would be christian
today were it not for the church of Rome.
However, the harlotry of Rome is that the state of Rome, which gets its
power from God (John 19:11; Romans 13:1), and should therefore be subject
to God, has played the harlot by accepting other gods, and in fact
declaring the emperor to be God. The concept of the harlotry of Rome
comes from Hosea, where the people of Israel, God's bride, played the
harlot with false gods. Rome was doing the same.
JP> 17:6 '.....drunk with the blood of saints...'.
JP> IFO 17:6 - Study the inquisitions. A policy of murder & torture
JP> of real people, carried out openly over centuries.
JP> Inspired and directed by men who claim to be the
JP> unique and direct representatives of Jesus Christ.
The blood of St. Paul, and St. Peter and other Christians with whom
John was familiar and several whom he probably knew personally. This
again shows your bias, and you uncritical acceptance of a false
starting point for the interpretation of the apocalypse.
JP> 17:9 '.....seven hills on which the woman sits....'.
JP> IFO 17:9 - Rome is famous for its seven hills.
Yup.
JP> 17:15 '.....The waters which you saw where the woman sits,
JP> are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues....'.
JP> IFO 17:15 - The worldwide influence of the Vatican is obvious.
The state of Rome claimed exactly the same.
JP> 17:18 '.....and the woman you saw is the great city which
JP> reigns over the kings of the earth...'.
JP> IFO 17:18 - The popes long ruled openly over the kings of the known
JP> world. Every king knew that if he bucked the papacy, then
JP> the pope would - could - did encourage the citizens to
JP> revolt. This principle is still in practice today.
Yes, and often they didn't. But Rome, in 95 A.D., the approximate time
of the writing of the apocalypse did rule openly over the kings of the
known world. By the time that popes controlled the political arena, the
Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.
JP> 18:4 '.....voice from heaven saying: Come out of her MY people...'.
JP> IFO 18:4 - Some R.C.'s belong to Jesus and will come out.
JP> [they will also come out of the denominations]
JP> This is happening now, and has happened before.
If you read the rest of 4, and on through 9, it is impossible to equate
Babylon the Great with anything but the city-state of Rome, never the
church.
JP> 18:12-19 ..... describes the great wealth of the great whore.
JP> IFO 18:12-19- Vatican's financial assets [open-hidden] are
JP> enormous.
This latter statement cannot be argued, but again, your bias keeps
your from seeing the truth, for vs. 11-19 describe commerce, not
wealth. Commercial interests were upset with the decline of Rome.
There is little evidence for much commerce within the church at ANY
point in history.
JP> The Revelation says there is a great whore in the city of 7
JP> hills,... and lo and behold- there is. Most commentators place
JP> the writing of the Revelation at around 90AD, well before the
JP> Vatican existed.
JP> This visible and verifiable fulfillment is God-given
JP> evidence confirming the truth of Jesus Christ.
John, either you must accept that the great whore is the city-state
of Rome, not the vatican, or you must concede that you cannot interpret
the entire book of Revelation with the same methodology.
... As confused as a baby in a topless bar!
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Re: Fundamentalist Are In
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:57
EID:05c6 20316460
-=> Quoting John Prewett to Dick Holm <=-
JP> My brothers and sisters don't have a "holy father" in Rome.
Some of my brothers and sisters certainly follow the human concept of
a 'holy father' in Rome, others do not. My brothers and sisters are the
same brothers and sisters that Jesus had. (Matt. 12:50, Mark 3:35) -
those who do the will of the Father in heaven. I would like to call you
my brother, but I'm afraid I can't do so, because of this verse. I do
not see you doing the will of the Father in heaven - to love one
another as Jesus loved us. Unless you get rid of that prejudice, I am
afraid for your soul.
... If you don't care where you're going, you can't get lost.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: Outspoken Freedom (519) 421-3164, Woodstock, ON (1:221/1155)
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Maria Russell
|Sub: Re: Fundamentalist Are In
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:35:59
EID:9099 20316460
-=> Quoting Maria Russell to Dick Holm <=-
MR> Dick, are you saying that the book of Revelation is not prophetic?
MR> Then how do you explain chapter 21, which is about the NEW heaven and
MR> the NEW earth?
Yes, I am saying it is NOT prophetic in the sense of predictin the future.
It is prophetic in the way of the OT prophets, who held up the society
and the culture to close inspection for their relationship to God.
Chapter 21, the new heaven and the new earth, are new precisely because
with the death and resurrection came a whole new order. Perhaps the best
way is be saying that heaven and earth have be REnewed. The fact that
there was no more sea refer to there being no more reason to fear. God
is in charge of history, and God has provided for us after death
The reason the sea refers to fear is that the Hebrews seem to have had
a morbid fear of the sea. They had only one natural harbour, no navy,
and no history of sea-faring. Their word for east is "my face to the
sun," and west - "my back to the sea." The sea harboured mosters -
leviathan which swallowed Jonah, etc. Even the small sea of Galilee
was fearful - note the terror of the disciples caught out in a storm
on it.
And the holy city, new Jerusalem, is really an image of the church,
for in vs. 9 John is told he will see the bride of the lamb, and in
vs. 10 is shown the new Jerusalem.
With the new order, the church is now made up of both Jews (the 12
gates) and Christians (the 12 foundations).
... Do you understand what I think I thought I meant?
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:36:12
EID:b7e2 20316480
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Dick Holm <=-
dh> There is no "evidence" that God did or did not create the world.
FR> Before you can demand what your deity constructs did do and what they
FR> did not do, you must present evidence for the existance of these deity
FR> constructs of yours.
False logic. Theories never require evidence to exist as theories.
Deity constructs are theories.
Theories are developed to explain natural phenomena. The natural phenomena
for which theologies (theories about deities, if you will) were
developed include existence, natural processes, and abstract concepts
such as love, good, evil, altruism, etc.
FR> Have any? Have any evidence at all?
For most people, the theories remain unproven, either the theories of
theism, or the theories of chance development and process. There is
sufficient circumstantial evidence in support of some theistic theories
so as to maintain the theory. If these theories were presented in a
court of law, there could be no verdict either way, because by legal
definition it would be impossible to prove either way "beyond a
reasonable doubt."
... I want to know God's thoughts; all the rest are details. - Einstein
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Outspoken Freedom (519) 421-3164, Woodstock, ON (1:221/1155)
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|From: Dick Holm
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Hate the fag! Hate t
|Date: 17 Jan 96 12:36:13
EID:7409 20316480
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Martin Goldberg <=-
mg> No one here said that homosexuality would go to hell. You and others
mg> have pointed out that your bible claims that homosexuals will go to
mg> hell. That sounds like hate to me.
FR> It's using deity constructs to JUSTIFY their hatred that I feel is
FR> worse than the hatred itself.
Here I have to agree with you. What irks me, as a Christian, is that I
have to defend myself more from fellow-Christians than from anyone else.
... Bleeding heart? Naaah! But maybe the occasional drop.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Outspoken Freedom (519) 421-3164, Woodstock, ON (1:221/1155)
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|From: Mark Hogan
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: An interesting situation
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:13:00
EID:8db1 203189a0
MSGID: 1:246/15 30F696BC
SA> I've started getting calls for the lady who used to have my number,
SA> too. It's only been a couple of months, so maybe it'll settle down
SA> eventually. I hope.
It's peculiar. I've known several people to get wrong numbers, but never
persistent and/or repeating "Whoops, wrong person/number" callers. At the
very least, nothing like you three seem to get/have gotten. I admit to always
having my phone number unlisted, but that shouldn't incur that if such people
existed, that I wouldn't be getting a flood of people with the right number,
wrong person syndrome.
I think when and if I ever make another move, I'll keep this number. =)
I've been plenty happy with it, and at the very least, I won't have to worry
about getting a bad deal on a line with recurring wrong number-dialers.
SA> My mom left her phone line in my grandfather's name even after he
SA> died (20 some odd years and a number change later, it's STILL under
SA> his name) and a few years ago, we got a call from a bank, the bank
SA> which, in fact, my mom deals with. The voice asked for "William
SA> Kenneth Armstrong". I asked what the guy wanted - apparently this
SA> fellow owed the bank a ton of money. I asked how long ago the debts
SA> were incurred. The reply? 6 months before. I said "That's a good
SA> trick, considering he's been dead for 20 years." The really funny
SA> part was having this guy call back every month for the same reason,
SA> and getting a reply along the same lines ("His current address?
SA> Check Victoria Lawn Cemetery. I think that's where they planted
SA> him, anyway.") Eventually, however, they clued in that they had the
You know, I could have had a lot of fun with a situation like that.
SA> grandfather for taking out a loan that was never paid back, 20 years
SA> after his death. Whee, it was fun being the one who always answered
SA> the phone. Considering I, too, did not put my real first name in
SA> the phone listings, it should be interesting to see what loonies
SA> come out the woodwork next year, when the new issue (with my own
SA> number) comes out.
You realize, that in using your handle as your first name, you're going
to quite famous among the denizens of FreakLand.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Mark Hogan
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: A Day In The Life...
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:21:01
EID:efa6 20318aa0
MSGID: 1:246/15 30F6989A
SA> Obviously in a better place than where you got your ethics.
It's funny how you can say all of that with a straight face,
dear. Oh, let's face it. None of us are terribly honest when it comes to
software. I'm a deviant, or have been in the past. I freely admit it. I'm
not ashamed. Of course, I don't claim superiority over anybody else, but
hey. That matters little in such a discussion of ethics.
The interesting paradox with my life is that I'm moral, and yet not very
law-bent. I've broken copyrights, in transferring hardcopy text to text-file.
Mind you, I don't sell copies of it ... but the transcripting, in itself,
is supposed to be unlawful. It's just plain silly, though. If I want to
word search for something, I'm going to have a lot more luck in doing so
through a file, rather than thumbing through hundreds of pages of hardcopy
paper.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Mark Hogan
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: Absurdities 3 of 4
|Date: 17 Jan 96 17:25:02
EID:3d27 20318b20
MSGID: 1:246/15 30F69989
SA> GR> [*]Psalms 58:8
SA> GR> Slugs and/or snails melt as they move.
SA>
SA> Heh. Sounds like something you'd find in a medieval bestiary, along
SA> with the information that lion cubs are born dead and are awakened
SA> on the third day by their father's roar, and bear cubs are born
SA> formless, and must be "licked into shape" - literally. At the very
SA> least, I get a huge kick out of primitive natural history.
Odd book, at the very least. Of course, while I thought about thumbing through
it for a laugh, I never got bored enough to try. I've got enough
work, programming, and books that are worth reading, to bother. Though,
I'm sure some mormon will get on my case, and tell me to prioritize my life.
Heh, heh.
SA> Now that sounds like something out of an AD&D game. "OK, you go up
SA> to the table where the Ork skeletons are seated. You notice a red
SA> light appear behind all the eye sockets. What do you do?" "I run
SA> the hell away and hide behind the ranger!"
Thanks a bunch, dear. The problem being, a ranger is no more suited to turning
undead than a thief is. Where's a cleric when you need one?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Dick Holm
|Sub: HAVE A HAPPY
|Date: 17 Jan 96 20:11:36
EID:b634 2031a160
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 2629462a
On (15 Jan 96) Dick Holm wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
MB> I have never been satisfied with the believers' answer to the
MB> Problem of Evil, as you seem wont to describe it. In the world
MB> we presently inhabit, it IS impossible to have good without
MB> also having the opposite, but this is not all possible worlds.
DH> No, but it's the only one we have.
MB> Think about this: you go into Baskin Robbins. You have a
MB> choice of 31 flavors. Do you think that BR is denying you
MB> free will because one of those options is not Strychnine Delight?
MB> NO! In order to have free will, you only have to have more than
MB> one choice. Period.
DH> In many ways we have more than one choice, but not in the
DH> matter of good and evil. That's because they're not opposites
DH> so much as they're (twins)? Like light and dark, you can't
DH> have both at the same time.
Complement. One is the complement of the other. But that is only
because the alleged god made the universe that way. Since he could
have made the laws of nature any way he wanted, he didn't have to
make them the way he did. He could have made a universe where evil
was not even on the screen or reality, just like human beings
flying without an apparatus isn't on the screen of reality. Does
anybody say we are denied free will, just because we cannot fly? I
don't think so.
DH> One is simply the absence of the other. By the nature of our
DH> observations, we claim that darkness is simply the absence of
DH> light, although it might be possible to argue the reverse.
DH> Similarly, one can talk about evil being the absence of good,
DH> and that seems to be the appropriate order of saying it. The
DH> comment that for evil to succeed it is necessary only that
DH> good men do nothing suggests this order.
All the above does is paraphrase the definition of good and evil
that we are all familiar with. It adds nothing to the debate. You
have just wasted a whole lot of bits, bytes, and keystrokes with
no apparent gain of any kind.
DH> Because of the nature of the universe and our perception of
DH> it, and our philosophical restrictions, we do have only two
DH> possible choices in the matter of good and evil. You can be
DH> disgusted by that, but you cannot change it.
Now, here's a man with a very firm grasp of the obvious. So?
DH> Religious people have lived with the dilemma that leaves us
DH> with, and have tried to deal with it theologically, with
DH> varying degrees of inclusivity, but there is still no one
DH> doctrine which is accepted by any kind of a majority.
More firm grasp of the obvious. Do you have something to actually
move the discussion forward, or are you stuck in reiterative mode?
... Would a bullfighter with acne have Oil of Ole'?
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 17 Jan 96 20:36:16
EID:f007 2031a480
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 53b9bafc
On (14 Jan 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Scot Bear...
-=> Quoting Scot Bear to Judith Bandsma <=-
SB> demand "B-" was until I showed-up at the Red Cross one day and they
JB> Second rarest blood type there is. My grandfather is really in trouble
JB> if he needs blood. He's AB-. Not a lot of that around.
JB> Who knows, we might be related. Got any Lombardos, Rices, or Purvis's
JB> in your family tree? Not nice, relatively sane ones, though.
They would probably use O- blood if you or your grandfather
needed a transfusion. O- people can give blood to anyone.
If you need help, look me up.
... ... Homo-fundiculi: A virus on the hard-drive of life.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ABORTION CONTRAST
|Date: 17 Jan 96 20:42:47
EID:b23b 2031a540
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 fa696303
On (15 Jan 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Judith Bandsma <=-
MB> I have to wonder if the mother threw her out because she
MB> didn't want the poor little girl around her husband, tempting
MB> him even more.
JB> That was my first thought. Especially since there seems to
JB> have been no attempt to find and prosecute whoever did this
JB> to this baby.
JB> My next thought was why they didn't just get this kid to a
JB> clinic. Giving birth is going to be SO dangerous for her. But
JB> then, the kid probably had no idea of what was happening, and
JB> I don't think pregnancy would be my first guess for an 11
JB> year old (if she was even 11 when she first GOT pregnant) so
JB> the condition probably wasn't even guessed at until it was
JB> too late.
That's the part I don't understand. She must've been having
periods, or she couldn't have gotten pregnant. Wouldn't a mother
notice when she took out the bathroom trash that there were no
dirty napkins in it, except when she was having her period? I
suppose the 10-year-old could have used tampons, but even then,
she had to get the money to purchase them, and they aren't cheap
these days. Unless she was swift enough to ask her mother to pick
some up when she went shopping, even though she didn't really need
them, I can't see how she convievably (no pun intended) could have
hidden the pregnancy for a sufficient length of time to make
abortion impossible.
I would think that childbirth would be life-threatening to
somebody that young. This whole story is horrible, on every
possible level.
JB> Nobody has said, but I sure hope they aren't planning on
JB> keeping the baby around to 'remind' this child of what she
JB> has lost for the rest of her life.
If the family is as stupid as they appear to be, it's hard telling
what their plans are -- IF they are even capable of making plans,
with the limited grey matter they obviously possess.
... I t±ld yo±, "Never±touch ±he flop±y disk s±rface!"
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 11 Jan 96 14:27:00
EID:903a 202b7360
* Carbons Sent to: ALL
HP>> Druffel, Ann and D. Scott Rogo. The Tujunga Canyon Contacts. En-
HP>> glewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1980. 264pp. ISBN 0-13-
HP>> 932541-7 A description of longterm, multiple witness UFO
HP>> contacts in the Los Angeles area.
AS> EXCELLENT! So you have FINALLY read what you are citing as a source?
HP> ROFL! Al, didn't say it was "true." Simply pointed out that claims
HP> like yours have been made elsewhere.
Remarkable. Cerebral inertia. You can certainly read what you are citing
as a source, even if you don't believe it is true. I know the Illiad, the
Odyssey, and the Elder Edda quite well, and for that matter, Shakespeare.
But I need not believe in Zeus, Athena, Odin, or Ariel, Oberon, and
Titania to not feel an IGNORMAMUS if I cite them as a source without at
least reading them. Take the above example. "Multiple witness" COULD mean
that there have been UFOs witnessed multiple TIMES rather than a large
number of witnesses all at once. And yes, it does indeed make a
difference. So you DIDN'T read it? What a shame. I was hoping you could
actually back up what you say.
AS> Of course c is light speed. What I was laughing at is the
AS> thought of faster than light drives.
AS> We can say with assurance that no way we can conceive of at
AS> present will all us to to c+, FTL, whatever, travel.
HP> Of course we can, Al. We can also be fairly sure that we don't know
HP> if it can be done or not -- you realize that in your disclaimer above
HP> ("no way we can conceive of at present"). Only a fundy would laugh
at
HP> his own ignorance.
Then this is one of the few places where Fred Rice and I agree. Hector
mine, you know as well as I do how unlikely a c+ drive is...and I have
every right to ROFL! at the idea. But have you noticed...
How completely you have reversed yourself?
Wait, wait, wait. Follow this through. You repeatedly ROFL!ed and called
people "morons" for considering a Designer a possibility. You have
repeatedly said without an "evidenced mechanism" it cannot be considered
a
real possibility--is that not a fair assessment?
But look what you are doing here!!!! You are defending the POSSIBILITY
of c+ drives---which as far as we can determine, is as much fantasy as
seven-league boots, perpetual motion machines, etc....and calling it
laughing at one's own ignorance to rule it out!!!
Does it not sneak into whatever you call a brain that you are totally
contradicting yourself? Why are YOU not laughing at your own ignorance
every time you ROFL!!! at the idea of a Designer? What is the difference,
here? No law of physics per se forbids a Creator. Relativity specifically
forbids FTL travel on several fronts. Why is this not hypocritical?
Why is this not just exposing your own bias? Why is this not a case of "do
as I say, not as I do?"
BTW, boobie...
BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HP> No, personally I doubt C+ drives can be made. But then, I don't have
HP> access to a fully unified theory to make such a categorical statement
HP> as you, that such is "impossible." Even Hawking harbors a secret hope
HP> that such can be done.
So do we all. But hope and fact are two different things. And this is TOO
priceless. It is not a "categorical statement" to say...
AS> We can say with assurance that no way we can conceive of at
AS> present will all(ow) us to to c+, FTL, whatever, travel.
It is simple fact.
However, your categorical DENIAL that a Designer is a valid possibility
for why the universe is the way it is---not an "evidenced mechanism",
remember?--speaks to your bias, not your reasoning powers.
TOO funny, Hec.
HP>> Not at all necessarily, Al -- don't we have wilderness areas here on
HP>> Earth? And black holes make excellent energy sources but are awfully
HP>> hard to detect, aren't they? If I'm going too fast for you, do let
me
HP>> know.
AS> But even from mountains in wilderness areas you can see city lights.
HP> ROFL! Al, you haven't been to the mountains in wilderness areas, have
HP> you? There are many places you can go and not "see city lights."
Ever been to Cimarron New Mexico? At the foothills of the Rockies. I spent
a memorable two weeks hiking there, and yes, climbing a mountain.
AS> Are you seeing anything that indicates the galaxy is anything
AS> other than in a "wild" state?
HP> How would you tell, Al, if the galaxy had been manipulated? We can
HP> only see a small portion of it, after all. The majority of the galaxy
HP> is located at the core, which is so dense we can't see into it. We're
HP> stuck out here in the boonies way out on a spiral arm, remember? And
HP> if you did see something that was manipulated, how would you know?
Now, YOU know better than that, Hector. Trying to prove a negative? We can
certainly observe some things about the core through infared photography.
But everything we see so far seems to be able to be explained through
natural processes of star formation. I repeat---are you seeing anything
that indicates the galaxy is anything other than a "wild" state? It's not
for me to prove it is "wild". It is for you to give some plausible pretext
that there is such a civlization out there. The only one I can think of
is
to give the credit for dark matter to type III civlizations somehow. Good
luck!!
AS> And even a black hole does not have enough energy to make a
AS> civilization Type III.
HP> Al, note the plural of "holeS" above. What do some folks theorize is
HP> at the heart of the Milky Way, BTW?
Now, there you have me. I must admit I was thinking of stellar black
holes, rather than galactic black holes. But again---if a type III
civilization is out there, manipulating stellar masses as easily as we
divert rivers for dams, etc....there seems an awful lot of waste. And
there seems to be no sign of them at work. (Of course, given the
lightspeed barrier, the galaxy could be as well organized as Las Vegas,
and we might not see it for twenty to thirty thousand years or so...)
I suspect if a type III civlization EVER hit Earth, they would be as
hard to ignore as a brontosaurus in Central Park. We're talking of a
civilization whose total power output would be literally trillions of times
ours. (There are a hundred billion stars in our galaxy, and we harness
only a pitiful small sliver of our one star's energy.) Seems MUCH too
unlikely to me to have ever occured in the lifetime of man being on the
planet. And such beings would have as little to fear from us as the Army
has against a tribe of naked, weaponeless children, so there would be no
reason to hide out of fear, anyway. Although there might be other
reasons.
... Astronomy: The anatomy and physiology of our universe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ALL
|Sub: C PLUS TWO
|Date: 11 Jan 96 14:51:00
EID:dd48 202b7660
MH>>> Al is operating from the assumption that a God exists who is capable
of
MH>>> creating the universe.
HP>> An invalid assumption, of course (lack of evidence, remember? :-),
but
AS> The constants falling in the range they do, remember?
HP> Sure, Al -- and no one knows why, remember? :-)
AS> possible explanations
HP> Gods are totally unevidenced, remember? Hardly what one would term
a
HP> "possible explanation" as you lack an evidenced mechanism, remember?
Notice in the above Hector is arguing that it cannot be a "possible
explanation" if "you lack an evidenced mechanism".
Notice he is saying the exact OPPOSITE when it comes to a c+,
faster-than-light drive. There he defends the possibility without even a
HINT of an evidenced mechanism. Indeed, no law of physics precludes a
Designer of such. But relativity specifically forbids, on SEVERAL fronts,
faster-than-light travel.
Hmmm. Contradictions, anyone?
I'm glad Hector logs on here to have fun. You couldn't PAY for
entertainment this good.
... given sufficient time, any self-serving fool will debunk itself.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ALL
|Sub: C PLUS ONE
|Date: 11 Jan 96 14:52:00
EID:4db3 202b7680
* Original msg to: Hector Plasmic
I know, I know, everybody is SICK of Hector and I sniping at each other.
But notice the curious double standard here.
AS> Of course c is light speed. What I was laughing at is the
AS> thought of faster than light drives.
AS> We can say with assurance that no way we can conceive of at
AS> present will all us to to c+, FTL, whatever, travel.
HP> Of course we can, Al. We can also be fairly sure that we don't know
HP> if it can be done or not -- you realize that in your disclaimer above
HP> ("no way we can conceive of at present"). Only a fundy would laugh
at
HP> his own ignorance.
Then this is one of the few places where Fred Rice and I agree. Hector
mine, you know as well as I do how unlikely a c+ drive is...and I have
every right to ROFL! at the idea. But have you noticed...
How completely you have reversed yourself?
Wait, wait, wait. Follow this through. You repeatedly ROFL!ed and called
people "morons" for considering a Designer a possibility. You have
repeatedly said without an "evidenced mechanism" it cannot be considered
a
real possibility--is that not a fair assessment?
But look what you are doing here!!!! You are defending the POSSIBILITY
of c+ drives---which as far as we can determine, is as much fantasy as
seven-league boots, perpetual motion machines, etc....and calling it
laughing at one's own ignorance to rule it out!!!
Does it not sneak into whatever you call a brain that you are totally
contradicting yourself? Why are YOU not laughing at your own ignorance
every time you ROFL!!! at the idea of a Designer? What is the difference,
here? No law of physics per se forbids a Creator. Relativity specifically
forbids FTL travel on several fronts. Why is this not hypocritical?
Why is this not just exposing your own bias? Why is this not a case of "do
as I say, not as I do?"
BTW, boobie...
BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HP> No, personally I doubt C+ drives can be made. But then, I don't have
HP> access to a fully unified theory to make such a categorical statement
HP> as you, that such is "impossible." Even Hawking harbors a secret hope
HP> that such can be done.
So do we all. But hope and fact are two different things. And this is TOO
priceless. It is not a "categorical statement" to say...
AS> We can say with assurance that no way we can conceive of at
AS> present will all(ow) us to to c+, FTL, whatever, travel.
It is simple fact.
However, your categorical DENIAL that a Designer is a valid possibility
for why the universe is the way it is---not an "evidenced mechanism",
remember?--speaks to your bias, not your reasoning powers.
TOO funny, Hec.
For your viewing pleasure.
... Astronomy: The anatomy and physiology of our universe.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: MR. MILLER...PROBLEM?
|Date: 11 Jan 96 15:44:00
EID:02d5 202b7d80
KW> Christian is some form of xtian. The other xtians on this echo don't
KW> seem to willing to embrace him, though.
JS> I haven't seen anything objectionable about Mr. Miller to date...
I didn't save it, but someone called Christian's BBS. It carried Holy
Smoke, sure enough, but it also carried numerous sex echoes of the kinky
kind, one on cheating on your spouse, one on threesomes, etc. Can we say
HYPOCRITE of the first order?
Christian ran his own BBS, BTW. So he was responsible. Nor did he deny
it when confronted about it. Surely you care about your wife too much not
to see what an insult that is, both to her and to women (and men)
everywhere? And how far from Jesus' teachings that is?
... I remember when the air was clean and sex was dirty.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: LET JESUS OUT OF HIS CASE
|Date: 11 Jan 96 15:46:00
EID:2a9c 202b7dc0
AS> Oh, that's not as inexplicable as it seems. No material
AS> object can go faster than the speed of light, but there's
AS> nothing that says space ITSELF cannot expand faster than
AS> light speed.
JH> Relative to what? How could it be measured without having
JH> massive objects appear to be moving faster than light?
Well, it would be energy at that point anyway. In a few picoseconds, the
universe would go from something on the subatomic level, to something a
few feet across. Finite yet unbounded.
But it's true that every version of inflation so far proposed, even
Linde's, has some problems with it, mathematical predictions that have as
yet not panned out. Guth's original version is definitely dead, but a lot
of us are reluctant to drop it completely, since it explains so many
properties at a single stroke...
... I know this violates the laws of physics, but ... I never studied law.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 14 Jan 96 08:28:00
EID:3bbf 202e4380
MG> I'm glad you see this. Al has a great deal of difficulty seeing the
MG> problem I have with being able to do one and not the other.
ML> No problem, really. It's all just a matter of "limited
ML> omnipotence".
ML> Sort of like "tasty scotch".
Which, in your view, God couldn't make EITHER...
Could it be, just perhaps, because they are mutually exclusive...? Sort
of
like married bachelors, round parallelograms, etc.?
God--ANY hypothetical God--is not bound by our ability to utter
nonsense.
... On what conclusion do you base your facts?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: "PROVE IT AIN'T TRUE!
|Date: 14 Jan 96 20:40:00
EID:1d65 202ea500
HP>> ROFL! Al, you still don't get it, do you? Prove I don't have a
HP>> promissory note signed by you wherein you promise to pay me $10,000
on
HP>> demand. Think about it for a few minutes, see if something comes to
HP>> you.
AS> Sure. What comes to me is that I have a signed receipt from you saying
AS> that I already paid that back, and lent you another $20,000 which is
at
AS> compound interest every week for the last two months. So you owe me...
HP> Okay, Al -- you pay your $10,000 (which you admit that you owe), then
HP> I'll let you sue me for the money you claim I owe you. Catching on
HP> yet?
Reading comprehension problems, Hector? Reread this line...
AS> Sure. What comes to me is that I have a signed receipt from you saying
AS> that I already paid that back, and lent you another $20,000 which is
at
Notice the ALREADY paid that back? And of course, I have the signed
receipt. Unless you would like to PROVE I don't...
HP>> ROFL! Then pay the $10,000 you owe me.
AS> Tsk, tsk. That compound interest is mounting....
HP> ROFL! Were you aware that you just debunked your demand to prove a
HP> negative?
No, I just turned it on its ear. My demand was to justify an assumption,
but I have long since turned it around the other way and evidenced to
Marilyn the positive claim. It is you who keep harping on it, to the
edification of no one, and made yourself look even sillier in the process.
Have a nice day.
... Are REASON and LOGIC allowed on this echo?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: AL, THE TORTURED PUPP
|Date: 14 Jan 96 20:56:00
EID:fc09 202ea700
HP> ROFL! That's the best you've got? Come on, Al, address the issue:
HP> Do you or don't you feel tortured by your inability to, say, fly by
HP> flapping your arms?
No. Why should I? However, if I could, I would be tortured by an inability
not to fly where I will. Just as if, when I'm out walking, suddenly I
found I couldn't walk in the direction _I_ chose. Free will...again...is
about doing what we want with the range of abilities given us, not
impossibilities.
HP> And did you or did you not claim we'd be "tortured puppets" if we were
HP> unable to do what we wanted?
Certainly. Within the range of our abilities. Suppose someone did an
implant on you that you could not perform violent acts no matter what
happened. And someone broke in and tortured and killed your family. Or
someone started beating up on a child nearby you. Would not you be
tortured by your inability to act? Now suppose EVERYONE suffered such an
implant. Utopia, right? Until the mad dog started to bear down on your
little girl, and you couldn't stop it...then suppose all living beings
everywhere had such an implant. And then a Hitler-style tyrant takes
over...who takes your wife and daughter to labor camps...and you cannot
stop them. They don't have to use overt force, they just block their way
back to your house. And of course, your wife and daughter can do nothing
to resist them...
"Tortured puppets".
HP> Now, what was your point again?
It's quite evident that you DIDN'T catch it the first time. Thank you for
admitting you didn't catch it. We are not tortured by our inability
to
do things beyond the present range of our abilities. We ARE tortured by
being unable to make free choice of what to do with the range of abilities
we have. Some might have a more restricted range of abilities...Steve
Hawking, for instance, or one of my autistic sons. But I cannot take away
EITHER'S right to do anything they wish within those range of abilities.
... We must believe in free will - we have no choice.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: ARTICULATION...IS MAKING
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:05:00
EID:1ac1 202ea8a0
RJ> You might also find references to Orestes and the
RJ> Wandering Jew, who are characters from literature, in there as
RJ> well--
JS> Who?
Aheusurus, the Wandering Jew, was reputed to have said to Jesus carrying
the cross on the road to Calvalry, "Go faster!" Jesus looked at him and
said, "I go. But you will stay until I return." After that, Aheusurus was
found to be immortal, unable to die, but unable to stay in one place very
long, and his immortality became a great burden on him, while he waited
for the Judgement Day. A medieval legend.
Orestes was the son of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra, Agamemnon being the
leader of the Greek forces during the Trojan War. He killed Clytemnestra
and her lover, Aegisthus, to avenge their killing of Agamemnon. He was
pursued by the Erynnies (Furies) but was acquited by the Areopagus. A
Greek legend.
... Faith is no excuse for ignorance!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: BANG A SPONG! GET ON!
|Date: 14 Jan 96 21:09:00
EID:ad58 202ea920
AS> Heh! That's funny. We just give 'em a hot meal and put 'em
AS> up for the night, let them have showers and watch TV.
JH> My very first exposure to The 700 Club was in a small mission in the
JH> apple growing region of Virginia (might have been Winchester, but
JH> all my memories of those years tend to blur together). The ONLY
JH> program allowed on the TV was 'The 700 Club'. I recall watching
JH> about 15 minutes of it with an overpowering sense of "What is this
JH> shit?".
Yick!!! All we had was a regular TV, non-cable, and they could watch
anything they wanted, although sometimes we had to referee when some
wanted to watch one program and some another. For all I know, they are
watching NYPD Blue looking for flashes of nudity. (Actually, they mostly
seem to go for comedies...cop shows and news shows are too close to their
everyday life.
JH> Luckily (?) that was the night when they packed everyone into a van
JH> and drove them over to be displayed at a "meeting" in a local school
JH> auditorium. The mission stiffs got up and "testified", everyone
JH> stood up and sat down several times and sang songs.
JH> After that ordeal, we were packed back into the van and had the
JH> option of watching more of The 700 Club. I went to bed early.
I would too.
... I got real close to seeing Elvis, but my shovel broke.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 14 Jan 96 22:11:00
EID:cc34 202eb160
AS> And there are male equivelents...men who lord over women with twice
AS> their intellect and education and common sense, because it is their
AS> "station" and without it, they would be lost. And sometimes it is
AS> frustrating for the male, being forced to fit a stereotype that he
AS> doesn't really want to be fit into.
LB> This morning I uploaded a longish post of excerpts from Helen Gardner,
LB> from 1885 -- a portion of it addresses what you are talking about:
Yeah, I read it with pleasure. With a few reservations on a few points.
LB> "... for it is not manly and it is not just; and such men are willing
LB> to free women from the ecclesiastical bondage that makes her
LB> responsible for all the ills of life, for all the pains of deed and
LB> creed, while it allows her no choice in their formation, no property
in
LB> their fruition. Such men are outgrowing the petty jealousies and musty
LB> superstitions of narrow-minded dogmatists sufficiently to look upon
the
LB> question not as one of personal preference, but as one of human
LB> justice. They do not ask, "Would I like to see woman do thus or thus?"
LB> but, "have I a right to dictate the limit of her efforts or her
LB> energy?" -- not, "Am I benefitted by her ecclesiastical bondage and
LB> credulity? Does it give me unlimited power over her?" but, "Have I a
LB> right to keep in ignorance, have I a right to degrade, any human
LB> intellect?" And they have answered with equal dignity and impersonal
LB> judgment that it is the birthright of no human being to dominate or
LB> enslave another; that it is the just lot of no human being to be born
LB> subject to the arbitrary will or dictates of any living soul; and that
LB> it is, after all, as great an injustice to a man to make him a tyrant
LB> as it is to make him a slave.
LB> Whenever a man rises high enough to leave his own personality out of
LB> the question, he has gone beyond the Stage of silly platitudes. His
own
LB> dignity is too secure, his title to respect too far beyond question,
LB> for him to need such little subterfuges to guard his position, either
LB> as husband, as household-king, or as public benefactor. His home life
LB> is not founded upon compulsory obedience; but is filled with the
LB> perfume of perfect trust, the fragrance of loving admiration and
LB> respect. It is the domestic tyrant, the egotistic mediocre, and the
LB> superstitious Church that are afraid for women to think, that fear to
LB> lose her as worshipper and serf."
LB> I particularly like the last line of the first paragraph -- that it
is
LB> as great an injustice TO A MAN to make him a tyrant as it is to make
LB> him a slave. Opressions imprisons the oppressor as much as anyone else.
Yes; quite frankly, in some relationships a dominent personality often
DOES assert itself, whether male or female, and the other is docile. And
sometimes it is best that way; other relationships have more
give-and-take. I think I mentioned I had traditional wedding vows, except
we did not put in the "and obey" in Barb's vows. Why start out with a lie?
Barb will do pretty much what Barb wants to do, and the surest way to make
her do the opposite is to order her to do it. OTOH, one needn't be a
doormat either. Barb and I are usually pretty much simpatico in basic
aims, but even in the best relationships there are disagreements. I
remember once Barb got mad and blamed Brian for something that I felt was
not his fault, and said she would take away his allowance. I raised my
voice, forcefully, and said, "No we won't." She started to argue with me,
and I just repeated it. If looks could kill, I would have been a dead man,
then. But I won't give in to blackmail from anyone, not even Barb. And she
apologized by the end of the day. She almost always does, when I take that
tone of voice. (Of course, since I'M writing this, I won't mention the
times where _I_ have been an opinionated arrogant so-and-so, and
apologized to HER by the end of the day.) A relationship with some
give-and-take is more challenging and can be more frustrating then a
relationship where roles are clearly defined, but I think it is worth it.
... Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: COINCIDENCE SCREW UP
|Date: 14 Jan 96 22:16:00
EID:03d9 202eb200
HP>> However, there's no reason to think a universe would "rebound" if it
HP>> actually collapsed _to a singularity_ in the first place. It's all
HP>> metaphysical hooie.
AS> A wish that the universe would go on forever and not have to confront
a
AS> beginning for same. Or an end. I agree.
HP> As silly as dead men jumping up and flying away, eh? :-)
Nope. We have WITNESSES on the latter one. (Gentle smile.)
... "Sheesh! Try to do something nice, and you get flamed!" -- Joan of Arc
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JM STAAL
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 14 Jan 96 23:10:00
EID:3b4a 202eb940
JS> As I know you have twitted my name, I have used this as an alias. The
JS> actual truth need be known as you continue to rant this incoherentcy:
Jim, if you don't want to be twitted, changing the content, rather than
the name, would be the way to go.
JS> My (Jim Staal) personal reply to Shelby:
SS>> He did quit, but the damage was done. Thanks for your concern,
SS>> christian.
JS> What's to concern? The guy is dead, already. History. Toast. I'm
JS> sorry for his survivors who have to deal with the loss. I'm sorry the
JS> man suffered as he did (I don't know why alleged doctors don't do
JS> something for the pain. Lon's father, the same way: the man screams
in
JS> pain and they do nothing for it), but hating me or God won't change
JS> that.
"History? Toast?" If your father is in pain, how would you like someone
talking so callously about the pain? If your father had died, how would
you like someone speaking so casually about it, also?
JS> ----====the end====----
JS> The original post from Lon Mabon that you are harranguing over:
JS> Ä Area: HolySmoke
JS> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
JS> Msg#: 3782 Date: 18 Dec 95
JS> 13:27:24
JS> From: Lon S. Mabon Read: Yes Replied:
JS> No
JS> To: Shelby Sherman Mark:
JS> Subj: Holiday Greetings...
JS> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
JS> ÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄ
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Lon S. Mabon <=-
SS> @MSGID: 1:123/67 30d32c78
SS> 14 Dec 95 14:49, quoting Lon S. Mabon to Shelby Sherman:
LM> Was your FAther in law a Christian when he died? If so, God was
LM> there, gently escorting him through the valley of the shadow of death.
SS> This is a goddamn lie of the worst sort.
JS> No, it's the truth.
JS> None: (Psa 116:15 NIV) Precious in the sight of the LORD is the
JS> death of his saints.
AAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
Of all the verses you could have picked...
Jim, I say this in all sincerity. Unless you quote it with
explanations, ANYBODY would have taken it the wrong way. If you had said
that to ME at my Father's funeral, I would have probably slugged you one.
Because if you just read the bare statement, it sounds like the Lord is
getting a kick out of the death of those who profess him in the holiest
manner. I know, I really DO know that's not what you meant. But...
My NIV Study Bible quickly tries to EXPLAIN that passage, saying, "Not
in the sense of highly valued but of that which is carefully watched over;
cf. the analogous expression 'precious is their blood in His sight'."
Though the NIV is closer to the actual Hebrew words, my Jerusalem Bible
comes closer to the nuance in its translation, when it says, "The death
of
the devout costs Yahweh dear."
Jim, I think, and I hope, that you were really, truly trying to be
comforting to Shelby in the time of his father-in-law's death. But there
are times to just let it rest. This was definitely one of those times.
George R. definitely made a cruel remark, and I treated it so; I'm giving
you the benefit of the doubt, and I truly believe you didn't mean it in
a
cruel way. But it came out as VERY cruel.
I try to be careful what I say here. It's not always easy. But remember
James saying, in 3:8, "but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless
evil, full of deadly poison.
"With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse
men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth come
praise and cursing. My brothers, that should not be!"
If George was being deliberately cruel, then you and your Lon persona
were being thoughtlessly cruel, I believe. If I was in such a situation,
I
would apologize to Shelby, quickly. But I am not your conscience. I just
think it would be both the wisest course for you at this point, and one
I
personally would respect you more for. And I do not think I would be
alone. I write this in the hopes that you might see the statements as
others would see them, as I have tried to see the statements the way you
have meant them.
... The Wise admit their errors and learn; Fools defend them and stagnate!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: DO NOT EAT THIS MESSAGE.
|Date: 14 Jan 96 23:15:00
EID:e9c4 202eb9e0
AS> Maybe it's just the loss of home. There is something deeply
AS> psychological about having one's own space, that you feel you own.
LB>
LB> I would imagine one's perception is altered by having to spend so much
LB> time figuring out how to manage meeting even the most basic of needs
--
LB> not just where to eat, but what. Where to sleep, and how to protect
LB> oneself and one's possessions while doing so. Where to use the
LB> BATHROOM! I can't think of a single thing that could be managed
LB> without a struggle and a fight of some sort. Little wonder a person
LB> would see conspiracies about the big stuff, when even the little stuff
LB> involves dealing with a hostile, unfriendly world.
When things are really bad outside, it is more feasible, considering the
hill I live on, to walk to work then to drive. It takes a while...several
hours. And sometimes looking for a bathroom site can be a little
difficult, also, even on a relatively short walk as that. If one had NO
bathroom, ever, no public facilities, sleeping arrangements--not to
mention the added worry of being killed and/or raped while asleep (more
of
a worry for the woman, but men have been raped too)---it would sponsor the
often paranoid mindset I encounter among the homeless.
... All the world's a stage, and most of us are desperately unrehearsed.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: FUN WITH YOUR NEW SPONG
|Date: 14 Jan 96 23:24:00
EID:6882 202ebb00
JH>> Oddly enough, I used to enjoy such services. I've always
JH>> enjoyed sermons, especially bad ones. And I've heard my
JH>> share of some of the worst. Also, when they took requests
JH>> for which hymn to sing
AS> Evern read the P.G. Wodehouse story, "The Great Sermon
AS> Handicap" where they bet on ministers to see who could do
AS> the most interminably long and boring sermon?
JH> They're only boring if you approach them as "teaching".
JH> I view them as entertainment.
I have heard a great many sermons in my life. Some have been so bad as to
be entertaining. A great many have been excellent, by excellent speakers,
because those are the types I prefer to go to. My own preacher is quite
good at that, as was his predecessor. But I have heard ministers-to-be
give sermons, I have heard university deans of religious colleges give
sermons, and I have heard uninspired ministers give sermons, and trust me,
some are interminably boring EVEN if you view them as entertainment.
... Imagine a Zen televangelist: a half-hour of silence. ___ Blue Wave/QWK
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: STEVE ROSE
|Sub: HEAVENLY DAZED
|Date: 14 Jan 96 23:57:00
EID:3cbe 202ebf20
SR> So you simply decided to trade one destructive impulse for another
SR> life-long one by becoming a religionoid. You are right: what WERE
SR> you thinking of??
AS> we are very much meant to be here. I have a hope of eternity,
AS> which, even if it is a hope that is false, I will never know it if
AS> I am extinguished, and which comforts me while I live.
SR> SO in other words...you have no real evidence for anything
SR> supernatural (naturally) but to give your troubled little mind
SR> comfort...you cling to your mythologies to blindly get you through
SR> life. And that keeps you from ending it all? What a life-long
SR> cop-out you've committed yourself to. Pathetic.
You make several ridiculous assumptions; if you continue to do so, I will
have so stop treating you with kid gloves; be warned that I treat everyone
with courtesy to begin with, but how I CONTINUE to treat you depends
entirely on you.
My evidence lies on three things; the very fine range of numerical
values in which the constants of nature fall, which if you altered them
either way, would render the universe lifeless. Which gives a strong
suspicion of either design, or a large ensemble of universes---and
Ockham's razor would opt for one unevidenced thing, like a Designer,
rather then the several billion unevidenced other universes. (I can cite
you example after example in mind-numbing detail.) If you know any physics
or cosmology, you might be familiar with the term "anthropic principle".
It is that sort of coincidence to which I am referring.
Secondly, on altruism beyond what is required by societal or genetic
necessity, such as helping the mentally handicapped.
Thirdly, on the silliness of the idea that the disciples died for what
they knew was a lie, OR had a multiple hallucination. Both are untenable.
People don't die for what they know are patent falsehoods (unless they're
spies during wartime) and multiple hallucinations are an oxymoron.
Hallucinations are singular and personal; there is no mechanism whereby
a
dozen people would SIMULTANEOUSLY imagine the exact same hallucination.
Which leaves the third alternative...they were telling the truth.
I specifically said that I did not turn to my religion to give me
comfort (though I would be a fool to deny it DOES comfort me) and your
last statement seems to imply that it is my religious belief that keeps
me
from ending it all---a gross and unjustified assumption. To do that I
would have had to have turned to Christianity immediately after the
suicide attempt, no? That was not the case. At the moment I am married to
a beautiful wife with three cute kids. If my faith were shattered
tomorrow, I would not commit suicide.
I notice also you very specifically did not reply to my question to
YOU...are your beliefs (or lack thereof) so much more comforting to you?
... Facts do not support Egos; they support Ideas.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 15 Jan 96 19:33:00
EID:8f36 202f9c20
AS> Thanks, Lynda, I saw it. I also saw his comments about you. I'm
AS> trying to think how to handle this...I don't need this to degenerate
AS> into a shouting match between believers.
LB> I have always taken Jim's alter egos with a grain of salt -- including
LB> Lump (I remain "agnostic" about whether or not that is actually a
LB> separate person. There may well be a Mark Staal in the world, but I'm
LB> not entirely convinced that he posts in Holysmoke). If Lon turns out
LB> to also be Staal -- and evidence is suggesting it -- then so be it.
It
LB> is only Staal's credibility that is damaged by it. I don't understand
LB> his purpose for doing it, as he seems to hunger for someone to take
him
LB> seriously, and then goes so far out of his way to ensure no one will.
LB> Very self-destructive, but it creates more a sense of pity in me than
LB> anger.
Yes; that's why I at first discounted the multiple personality thing...the
good Captain/James Robertson I could understand, since they were very
DIFFERENT personalities. Why use a different name with the same viewpoint?
But I must admit, the Lou/Jim identification is getting to be a little too
much to deny. You will notice he hasn't responded to my direct question
about such, yet.
AS> I've got a question. I thought several times about broaching this
AS> with Katherine, but perhaps you might be a little more objective,
AS> since Katherine obviously dislikes Staal intensely. The original post
AS> that "Lon" did to Shelby on his father-in-law's death, where he talked
AS> about God guiding the father-in-law through the Valley of Death...is
AS> there any chance he meant it as a comfort?
LB> I don't know about deliberately cruel -- certainly, it is CASUALLY
LB> cruel to attempt to insert a debating point into what is supposedly
a
LB> word of comfort. Everyone knows Lon stands firm that if one is not
LB> "saved" they will burn. Does it really need to come up during an
LB> expression of sympathy to a nonbeliever? Shelby obviously DOESN'T see
LB> any hope of heaven -- what does telling him his father is in heaven
do
LB> for Shelby? His dad isn't here to read the message.
I agree it was in clumsy taste, but that alone didn't really convince me
he was being maliscious or using OUTRAGEOUSLY bad taste. But when you
reposted the original post (which somehow I missed, must have been eaten
by Fido) and we saw that thing about Lou asking if the father-in-law, for
not realizing the bad effects of tobacco in time, "what was he, living in
a tee-pee" or words to that effect..that is gross insensitivity and
extreme bad taste on Lou's part, whether it was meant malisciously or not.
LB> No, I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to be cruel. But it did
LB> show a disregard for what my comfort Shelby, in exchange for saying
LB> what might comfort Lon in the same situation. Sometimes I think that
LB> is the weakness of the Golden Rule -- doing unto others what we would
LB> have them do unto us assumes that everyone else shares our viewpoint.
LB> Unless someone makes a conscious effort to put themselves in the
LB> other's place, it can have nasty ramifications, as this one did.
Right. No one flamed me when my father died, and said, well, at least he's
beyond caring or feeling any more, which is the opposite of what those who
believe in an afterlife expect.
AS> I evidently missed that
AS> post. In the same sense that a Wiccan might say of a soul who passed,
AS> "May the Goddess guide him to the Summerlands"?
LB> Which would probably be seen as offensive to Lon, or Jim, or anyone
LB> else who sees the Goddess as demonic, no. For one of our Wiccans here
LB> to do so; I'd be tempted to think they were using someone's grief to
LB> win a debating point, not to genuinely express concern (and I might
LB> well be wrong about it, but it would likely be how I'd see it). OTOH,
LB> you or I could accept it in the spirit in which it was offered, without
LB> seeing any hostile undercurrent.
Right. But I must admit, reading the whole thing, although that might have
been seen as comforting by the writer (whoever he really is) the later
points should have been ommited, at the very least.
AS> before.) Could it just have been a case of chronic insensitivity, to
AS> say to a atheist who saw his believing father-in-law suffer a
AS> horrible,lingering death? Could he have meant well, no matter how
AS> Shelby took it? Granted that such insensitivity might have been
AS> culpable in itself, but if you saw it, do YOU think he was being
AS> deliberately cruel to Shelby?
LB> He may have meant well -- insensitivity is a good way of putting it.
LB> That's basically what I'm referring to as "casual cruelty". The act
of
LB> not bothering to see it from the other person's viewpoint. George R.'s
LB> comments were also cruel -- it seems a minimal trait of humanity to
be
LB> able to lay aside any debate or dispute long enough to care when
LB> someone else is going through a tough time, and not use that vulnerable
LB> period to try to score a hit on them.
Yes; I saw cruelty on both sides, there, but first saw George R.'s
response, so that is what I responded to first.
LB> One of the things that bothers me most about the Jim/Lon thing is that
LB> if forces me to wonder if either or both really have been facing the
LB> illness of a parent, because Jim professed no knowledge of his OWN post
LB> (Lon's was already being discussed, so he knew about that one) until
it
LB> was brought up...then he said something like "what a coincidence!".
LB> What, did he forget his dad was in the hospital?? I don't like playing
LB> these guessing games, and if it turns out that he IS Lon, and there
is
LB> no sick father, then I find THAT to be as great a cruelty as discussing
LB> heaven to a bereaved atheist -- because it is an attempt to garner
LB> sympathy by faking an illness in a family member, and injures everyone
LB> who might now be suspicious of the next time he mentions personal
LB> difficulties.
I didn't even stop to think that there might not be a sick father, and
quite frankly, unless I see some evidence against it, I'm going to assume
there
is one. AFter all, he seemed to trip himself up by mentioning it in both
personas. If it were a cheap debating trick, if it were that premeditated,
one might think one would be premeditated enough to keep it just to one
personality.
... 90% of being smart is knowing what you're dumb at.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: INTO.
|Date: 15 Jan 96 19:38:00
EID:16df 202f9cc0
HP>> You mean you actually thought you recalled being there, Al? ROFL!
AS> Not at all, of course.
HP> Amazing -- then why were you confused about whether you were there,
HP> Al?
(Gentle smile.) I wasn't. I was wondering why you were asserting I was
there when I wasn't, of course. I was wondering at YOUR confusion. When
you explained you meant your daughter, that explained it. But of course,
you can't just let it go, can you? I'm sorry your imprecision of speech
is
causing you to act so anal-retentively. If I started to talk about a
Hector I knew I would hopefully put something like (not OUR Hector!) or
(Hector Jones, not Hector Plasmic) to distinguish the two, if I posted on
this echo.
And notice how Katherine, Lynda, and another (I think Judith) was also
under the impression that you were talking about me.
... I'm patient with stupidity but not with those proud of it.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: RATTLE...
|Date: 15 Jan 96 19:48:00
EID:4be2 202f9e00
PS> Y'think Jesus is happy with your behavior?
JS> Oh...feigning ignorance is a sin, is it?
Lying was, last I looked. If you claim you do not know something, and you
do....or if you do not know something, and then claim you did...well, what
can we think?
And if you feign to be ignorant, don't be suprised if some people take
you at your word and assume you're ignorant. "Be very careful who you
pretend to be, because that'll be what you end up becoming."
And we are enjoined to be as "cunning as serpents and yet as harmless as
doves,"(Matt. 10:16) as believers.
... WARNING: This Message May Be Hazardous to Your Point of View.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: SILLY FUNDY CLAIMS
|Date: 15 Jan 96 20:02:00
EID:ad04 202fa040
AS> Yet again. If he just accepted the attributions, he would
AS> work FROM THE STORY AS GIVEN HIM AND GO ON FROM THERE.
HP> ROFL! Al, your total lack of anything resembling logic in that
HP> statement is silly. One might accept that someone wrote something
HP> without independently attributing it to them, and one might still
HP> disagree with the content of that same book. You've fallen apart.
Not if it is one's avowed purpose to show Christianity a fraud. Do you
think Larry Sites, if he had access to records as close as Celsus would
have been to Christianity, would have neglected to check out that claim
also?
AS> Celsus attributes them to the generally accepted authors of the Gospels.
HP> Please show us where he does indeed attribute them rather than accept
HP> the attributions of others, much as Marilyn does when arguing with you,
HP> an example I've handed you four times now while you've shuffled and
HP> cavorted for our entertainment.
(Gentle smile.) But I have his plain words. If you doubt his assigning
them to the Gospels, it is YOU who have to supply evidence, not I. If we
had only one of Marilyn's statements where she referred to "Matthew's
Gospel" and NOTHING ELSE, we would be justified in thinking she believed
that. We don't, because we have EVIDENCE...additional words from
MArilyn...to contradict it. And your EVIDENCE that Celsus disbelieved in
such? What a dance you are doing, Hector. You are asking me for
evidence, but it is you who are making an assertion---and not backing it
up.
AS usual. You're asking me to verify if he REALLY meant what he said.
I'm not oblidged to do so. It's enough that I have shown evidence that he
said what he did. If you want to prove he didn't mean it, that's YOUR
assertion, which you have to back up.
Please show us, Hector. Unless you LIKE the sounds of crickets
chirping...
... I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: WHY GOD? 1/2
|Date: 15 Jan 96 20:10:00
EID:4151 202fa140
AS> Telling the faults of some of His followers
AS> is not slandering Christ, John.
JP> Wonderful that you feel this way !
It IS rather.
AS> Um. And the Sanhedrin were Caiphas followers and not Moses followers?
JP> As a matter of scriptural fact-
JP> "for IF you believed Moses,
JP> [THEN] you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me." John
JP> 5:46
Um.
JUST BEFORE that, John, read what Jesus said, in 5:45, "Your accuser is
Moses, ON WHOM YOUR HOPES ARE SET." They did indeed misinterpret Moses'
teachings. But Jesus HIMSELF indicates they are setting their hopes on
Moses--which is another way of saying they were trying to follow Moses,
albeit badly.
JP> The Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus
JP> WERE more "Caiphas followers"
JP> than they were "Moses followers."
Um.
Then why did Jesus appeal to Moses' authority in John 7:21? "Jesus said
to them, 'I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. Yes, because
Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses,
but from the patriarchs, you circumcize a child on the Sabbath. Now if a
child can be circumcized on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not
be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the
Sabbath?" Surely such an argument would have had no weight---unless they
WERE Moses followers and not Caiphas followers?
AS> It's interesting to deny, and I truly think
AS> Jesus would deny Torquemada like a SHOT.
JP> Are you sure ? Now don't go too far out on a limb.
No, I'm NOT sure. I don't have to job of judging. HE does.
For all I know Torquemada might have had a deathbed realization how sad,
pitiful, and wasted all his life had been, how he had taken the Word of
God and used it to commit abominations. And he might have sincerely
repented. Not holding my breath for that, but it's not my job to judge.
JP> Sure you aren't being a judgmental, mean spirited bigot ?
Not sure of anything in that vein. I probably have my prejudices just like
anyone.
JP>
JP> Maybe you HATE Spanish Roman Catholics ?
Now why should I do that? Cervantes, Isabella, El Cid---I don't have to
hate anybody BECAUSE THEY ARE PART OF A GROUP. That way DOES lie bigotry.
JP> Mighty mean of you to express such condeming thoughts
JP> toward this much maligned servant of the pope's "CHURCH."
Oh?? I cannot condemn the murdering of thousands of innocents?
AS> But I cannot say he was not trying to follow the
AS> teachings of Christ, as he [mis]understood them.
JP> Maybe Satan is just a misunderstood person
JP> who really has our best interest at heart.
Maybe Satan is an individual who has already been explicitedly condemned
by God? Maybe conparing those you dislike to Satan is a LITTLE bit
melodramatic?
JP> To Christ followers the difference is significant..
AS> Which besides you, consists of...who?
JP> Jesus hasn't made me privy to that information.
Oh. Uh, John. I was just asking for a few more names. Eiher in history
(but let us except the first century disciples and first generation
Christians) or in contemporary society. You don't have to include all of
them. (Fascinated, unable to resist asking.) Has Jesus made you privy to
ANY information not revealed in the Scriptures, by any chance? Are you
claiming a direct link to Jesus? Just asking.
JP> Among your fellow members of organized religion,
JP> do you have a list of those who in fact are guided by Christ ?
I can certainly think of some who I feel are doing God's work and whom God
approves of. Thomas More, who lost his head rather than compromise on his
faith. Mother Teresa, who is spending her life helping the poor in India.
Dr. Bob Whitaker, a doctor-missionary who runs Nigerian Christian Hospital
in Abo State, Nigeria. It's not an all-inclusive list. Just a few names.
JP> To heathens the difference is denied.
AS> Oh, many unbelievers see the difference
AS> between Torquamada and Mother Teresa.
JP> Yet in a profound way, Torquamada and Mother Teresa
JP> are THE SAME. Though in different ways, they both serve[d]
JP> to bolster the prestige and power of their
JP> [according to RC doctrine] lord the pope.
Torquemada and Mother Teresa are the same. Riiight. The different ways are
pretty different. After all, there is a difference in trying to help the
poor and starving and comdemning others to death. It's the difference
between Schlindler's List and Adolf Eichmann.
JP> Torquamada and Mother Teresa are THE SAME in that their
JP> [according to RC doctrine] supreme guidance came/comes
JP> from the papacy/magisterium.
Do you not hear how fanatical you sound? SO WHAT??? If a bunch of Buddhist
monks tried to help the poor and starving, would you not approve their
efforts?
JP> Who one heeds will determine where one spends eternity.
Well, I'm glad you are "privy" to such information. The rest of us have
to
struggle along with God's word as revealed in the Bible.
JP> To man-pleasing, liberal, borderline apostate
JP> protestants, the difference is ignored.
AS> Golly. WhoEVER could you mean?
JP> Most modern "christians" of organized religion.
I guess you're just a Middle Ages kind of guy...
AS> But you ignored the important point: to CHRIST,
AS> the difference is eternal. And HE will judge, not us.
AS> WE are specifically told NOT to judge until the time.
JP> Fine.
Good. Then why are you doing so?
AS> Yes, quite frankly, I think He will say to Torquemada,
AS> "depart ye accursed, I knew ye not."
JP> Careful now, we wouldn't want to be too JUDGEmental !
See the "I think" above? It means, even in Torquemada's case, I'm not
sure.
AS> I think He might say it to a lot of people that might suprise us.
AS> And there is a possibility He may say it to me.
AS> And, whether you believe it or not, with your hatred for others, .....
JP> Your JUDGEMENT of me is noted.
Good. You say it incessantly. You judge everyone in a certain religion by
just being in that religion. That is bigotry, which is a subset of hate.
That is merely admitting what YOU have asserted many times.
JP> What is one who does what he claims others should not do ?
Then correct me. Do you NOT hate the Roman Catholic faith? Do you not feel
the Pope is consciously deceiving the rest? Do you not hate him for that
deception, and every other Pope who has made that claim. I was following
YOUR assertions here. If I'm wrong, than correct the overwhelming
impression you give by your words.
... I am intolerant only of the intolerant.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: CHRISTIANITY...TODAY.
|Date: 15 Jan 96 20:22:00
EID:9012 202fa2c0
LB> Between
LB> you, Jim, Christian, and Prewett, if I were a less experienced
LB> Christian, or one who has not known how MANY different types of
LB> nonpetty Christians there are,
JS> Are you here declaring the Bible 'petty'?
By no means. She is saying that some Christians can declare the Word in
a
nonpetty way. It's the difference between C.S. Lewis and Jimmy Swaggert.
LB> I would be tempted to take you all at
LB> your word, and simply give up, and declare myself not a Christian, if
LB> it means that I must be like you.
JS> No, it means you must follow the book of Christianity, the Bible.
Which she knows as well as you, Jim. She has shown it repeatedly.
LB> What makes me angry beyond words is
LB> that you, and the likes of you, HAVE turned people away from Christ
who
LB> mistake your shallow, vindictive view of the gospel for the real
LB> thing.
JS> And how has that been manifested, in your eyes?
If I may...I have certainly seen cases like that. Where one's narrowness
of focus on the Bible's words rather than the spirit and intent of the
words, drives others away from God rather than towards them. I know a
person who was a quite committed fundamentalist Christian and a musician.
Worked with the warm-up bands for Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith, and the
like. He was gay, and struggled with it...even encouraged some other
"Christians" to beat it out of him. With his consent, they tried. Later,
he asked his minister---a rather odd one who regards himself as an
"apostle", thinks he has seen the risen Christ--if God would prefer a man
gay or dead.
The minister thoughtlessly answered, "dead," not knowing my friend was
talking about himself.
He spent much of that night, struggling with the idea of suicide. And
then decided that dead, he would not do God any good.
He is now Wiccan. He is Wiccan because of some thoughtless words by a
minister. And I would MUCH rather be in the gay Wiccan's shoes come
Judgement Day, then the minister whose careless word almost ended a life.
Jim, there was nothing wrong with the Pharisees' belief in the OT, was
there? Even Jesus did not fault them for that. What He faulted them for
was reading it without understanding, or obeying the letter of the Law and
ommitting what it was intended FOR.
Jesus did not deny that a woman caught in adultery should be stoned. He
DID, however, add something to it..."let he who is without sin cast the
first stone." He showed that mercy is the higher Law.
LB> It would be so much easier for you if I would walk away from the
LB> faith, so that you could comfortably ignore me, but I won't.
JS> Not at all. But when you walk away from the Bible, you do exactly
JS> that. And when you criticize Christians who uphold the Bible, you do
JS> it as well.
But do YOU agree with every Christian? Obviously you don't. You are
disagreeing with Lynda here. Whether you think it or not, Lynda thinks she
is upholding the BIble just as much as you do.
LB> Everytime
LB> you preach a gospel of hell and damnation, you show where your heart
LB> lies, and I won't let you slander the Name of my Saviour unopposed.
JS> The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) only preach a gospel of
JS> warm fuzzies? I think not!
No; that's true. But you know there is a difference between the man of
sorrows, who asked, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do,"
and the Pharisee who thanks God that he is not "as other men"....and the
humble sinner who prays, "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner."
And remember which--the Pharisee or the sinner--Jesus said God approved
more of.
If I might suggest...perhaps you should ask Lynda more specifically
which verses she feels justify her position. I think all three of you
(Maria, Lynda and yourself) might do better to divorce this from
personality and get into specifics. Just a suggestion.
... Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: SILLY FUNDY CLAIMS
|Date: 15 Jan 96 20:28:00
EID:ad04 202fa380
AS> IN HISTORICAL REASEARCH DOCUMENTS ARE EVIDENCE!!!!!!!!!
HP> ROFL! Well, then, Al, Homer has convinced you that Achilles was
HP> invulnerable except for his heel? Is that correct?
No. On TWO counts.
(1) You used Hector's Hatchetjob to delete me saying you need not accept
all documents without question, only you must account for them.
(2) (Gentle smile.) Are you ABSOLUTELY sure that HOMER says that Achilles
was invulnerable except for the heel? You SURE about that? Not
Apollodorus, or Ptolemy Hephaestionos, or Lycophron...but Homer? Hmmm.
Exactly WHERE does he say that, Hector? It's a big book, the Illiad.
Honestly curious. Where EXACTLY does he say that? Of course, not DOUBTING
you, just asking...
HP> Oops -- you're debunked.
(Gentle smile.) You're SURE?
... Did I.Q.s drop sharply when I wasn't looking?
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|From: Douglas Duke
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Spear in side
|Date: 15 Jan 96 22:56:12
EID:ad30 202fb700
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 30fb2fec
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30f9826a
DD> Right on your post. JESUS laid down His Life for those who should
DD> be saved, and was not killed by men. So, He was dead in the
DD> leg-breaking rituals, and He was dead as the spear went into His
DD> side.
PS> Jesus was quite a wimp, then. Standard death from crucifixion took 3-4
PS> days at least.
Not at all. He laid His life down and dismissed His Spirit to the
right hand of God the Father in heaven while His body was in the
Tomb.
The two thieves could not do this, and so their legs were
broken so that they would die before the last seventh-day sabbath.
DD> After the resurrection, the disciples put their hand in that hole
DD> in His side, and saw the nailprints in His hands.
PS> A fancy trick, that last. Don't you mean his wrists? He wouldn't have
PS> been crucified with nails through his hands.
After the resurrection on that first first-day sabbath, JESUS met
with His disciples and showed them His hands and His side.
This made the disciples very glad, when they saw the LORD.
Maranatha Bible alone!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ROBERT JACKSON
|Sub: A DAY IN THE LIFE...
|Date: 12 Jan 96 07:33:00
EID:784e 202c3c20
AS> person himself, though. It's doubtless just my subconscious acting on
AS> it, but I think the Biblical injunction against fortune-telling was
a
RJ> Fortunetelling is no different than any fundy who has a
RJ> problem and just reads Bible verses at random until finding one
RJ> that "offers a solution".
Well, not necessarily. One can find solutions in odd places---reading
Shakespeare at random, for instance, might suggest a solution. If you mean
just opening the book and taking ONE scripture as the answer, yeah, I
would agree (although Augustine wouldn't). But looking through it at
random to see what it might suggest is not totally off-the-wall. It might
be a good way to break out of your old way of thinking...what De Bono
calls "lateral thinking".
AS> wise one...doesn't it give you a mild feeling of the willies to know
AS> that Ronald Reagen, in charge of America during the last stages of the
AS> Cold War, and access to the Button that could Blow Us All Away, was
AS> getting advice from his wife's astrologer?
RJ> I supported the Reagan Revolution for about 6 years--until
RJ> that nasty little bit of info fell out. That was pretty
RJ> much what started my political evolution away from the GOP.
One can hardly blame you.
... You think time heals everything? Try waiting in a doctor's office.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS 1
|Date: 12 Jan 96 08:25:00
EID:be73 202c4320
AS> When I was young I wrote a short novel or novella called Lycaon,
AS> trying to make THE werewolf novel as Stoker made THE vampire novel
AS> with DRACULA. In it, the title character, was a Greek shipowner and
AS> wealthy, and were THE Lycaon and his sons, not killed by Deucolon's
AS> flood, and willing, even eager in what they did. I had lots of local
AS> color about Greece, which is pretty funny since I've never been there,
AS> culled from travel books. If I had to do it over again, of course, I
AS> would move Lycaon here and do only enough contemporary Greek
AS> background so as not to sounds like an idiot. I did rather like him,
SA> Sounds intresting. Haven't seen the book, but I'll be sure to keep
SA> an eyeball open for it. And I've been to Greece, so the details
SA> might bring back a memory or two. :)
No, no, no. It was an unpublished novella. You will look in vain for it.
I
don't even have the original manuscript anymore, I think. Maybe. Not
feeling up to tackling my files.
AS> though, despised by Zeus of the red hot lightnings...(BTW, wasn't it
AS> Zeus who transformed him into a wolf?)
SA>
SA> Hm. Could have been; I was thinking Apollo probably because of his
SA> association with a wolf-cult (caused out of confusion between the
SA> similarity - in English script - between the words for "light" and
SA> "wolf" in Greek. You might see references to Lycaon Apollo in some
SA> mythology books .. but the usual explanation is that he was only a
SA> god of light, and had little to do with wolves. The confusion comes
SA> in from the words "Light - Leukos " and "Wolf -
SA> Lukos - Lykos . In Greek script, it's a heck of
SA> a lot more clear, at least if you read it properly, and not like
SA> many "scholars" tended to do in the past, imposing English or Latin
SA> pronunciations onto the letters.)
I'm pretty sure it was Zeus who was served the cannibalistic "stew".
SA> the priest wasn't killed, either. The story just ends with the old
SA> man-wolf thanking the priest, and the priest going on his way.)
AS> Well, he WAS old. Maybe his fangs were loose or missing...
SA>
SA> :) Well, the fellow did, by implication, seem awfully religious - at
SA> least religious enough to insist on Last Rites for his mate. One
SA> would be forced to assume that the couple was cursed, and did not
SA> come to lycanthropy willingly. Unfortuantely, the story doesn't
SA> bother to tell how they were cursed, or who cursed them, or why.
I remember an excellent short story of a werewolf where a beautiful woman
was found in the snows and brought home by a lonely hunter who lived with
his parents and brothers and sisters...she was a werewolf, of course, but
had silver hair and soft white skin and of course made a silvery wolf. (A
woman transforming into a she-wolf would come closer to the weight range
for wolves, anyway...unless she was Rosanne or something.)
AS> Nothing like talking to an expert...
SA> Heh. Though, I worry about myself sometimes, knowing all this.
Well, I'm perhaps the world's expert on why red-sunned, high-gravity
worlds will not result in supermen, but stunted dwarfs who would die at
the first touch of ultraviolet. And I can do all three of Superman's
family trees. To each their own fanaticism.
SA> Blackfoot, anyway.) Of course, that's not so much of a werewolf
SA> story as it is a statement on how unaccepting humans can be - the
SA> wolves told her to go home because they thought it best for her, not
SA> because they didn't like her company any more - but it does include
SA> the element of shapechanging.
AS>
AS> Reminds me of a lot of feral child stories, actually.
SA>
SA> Mm. Though she was older when seperated from her tribe. Most Wild
SA> Child stories have the individual being raised by wolves from a very
SA> early age. Interestingly enough, the documented cases (the most
SA> frequently cited being that of Amala and Kamala) seem to involve
SA> autistic children - who were perhaps abandoned, or wandered away
SA> from home. The case of Amala and Kamala, however, is very, very
SA> ambiguous - the man who adopted (and studied) them, Rev JAL Singh,
SA> probably did not find the girls at all - they were apparently most
SA> likely brought to him. Other children were supposedly found playing
SA> near wolf dens, leading to the assumption (based also on their
SA> behaviour) that the wolves had raised the kids. However, the
SA> explanation most offered is that autistic folk have an attraction to
SA> canines, especially large ones - but you'd know more about that than
SA> I would.
To tell you the truth, I have not noticed that. My kids seem both
attracted and repelled by the unpredictability of animals. My youngest
scampers away from cats, for instance, giggling all the while. Jamie is
very hesitant to stroke an animal. OTOH, their lack of communication
skills might lead them, if they were seperated from human contact, to
social creatures who are NOT verbal. I was aware that many "feral"
children seemed to be really autistic (although there are studies that
indicate if a child is not exposed to language by a certain age, he will
not develop it.) Philip Jose Farmer did a feral man anthology called
MOTHER WAS A LOVELY BEAST, and his wonderful "biography" of Tarzan, TARZAN
ALIVE, which pretends there really WAS a Tarzan, just like Edgar Rice
Burroughs claimed. Says that "Lord Greystoke" was raised, not by
conventional apes, but the last few tribes of a manlike hominid (not ulike
the speculations on bigfoot and yeti) left in Africa. Wonderfully silly,
almost sublimely silly.
AS> Right. I remember these series of stories by Poul Anderson in a world
AS> where magic worked, where the husband was a werewolf and the wife was
AS> a witch. When he changed into a werewolf, it was a BIG wolf, because
AS> conservation of energy/matter still held, so a 200 lb. man became a
AS> 200 lb. WOLF, which is HUGE for a wolf.
SA>
SA> It's bloody ENORMOUS. And yes, it is a common belief that size
SA> doesn't necessarily change - which runs concurrent with the belief
SA> in certain parts of Europe that werewolves are distinguished by
SA> having no tail (humans don't have one, after all, and have nothing
SA> which could turn into one from the point of view of European
SA> peasants.) This would be an even more terrifying aspect of
SA> lycanthropy, considering that one of the ways to diagnose the
SA> difference between a dog and wolf is by observing how the tail is
SA> held. Dogs generally hold their tails up, and have a slight to
SA> pronounced curl in them; wolves don't. Without a tail, it would
SA> presumably be difficult for a farmer to make a spot-identification.
Rrrr. That Poul Anderson story...at one point the werewolf came across a
giant, blubbery sumo wrestler type--who was a weretiger. He had to have
that much mass, or he would make a very SMALL tiger...
... Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS 3
|Date: 12 Jan 96 08:28:00
EID:7ff2 202c4380
AS> Which has to do with the three laws of Magic anthropologists have
AS> discovered which is in common behind the belief systems of most
AS> magical systems...in this case that the quality of something (such as
AS> a wolfskin) is still linked to the original even after it is parted,
AS> or that something similar to the thing trying to be focused on is
AS> linked with the original (like a voodoo doll).
SA>
SA> Sympathetic Magic. Very common and widespread amongst animists and
SA> whatnot .. it's probably the earliest form of magic/religion there
SA> is. And, it's echoes persist - who hasn't accused someone of making
SA> it rain because they washed their car or watered their lawn? :)
The hero, though a magical rookie in these magical worlds, since he DID
understand the three laws behind them, could actually do magic better than
the more skilled practitioners there...or, let's say his results were
spectacular, but not as well controlled as they could be...
... Necromancers do it loud enough to wake the dead.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: RE: ASKING SILLY QUESTIO
|Date: 12 Jan 96 09:03:00
EID:185a 202c4860
AS> Ah, but you can get a reasonable timeframe for most happennings. I don't
AS> assert you could go to Jerusalem thirty years later and confirm EVERY
AS> claim and detail and miracle , but you could confirm
AS> the main details. And after that, you are left with the mystery of why
the
AS> disciples endured such hardships for either a group delusion, a lie...or
AS> the truth.
KW> And so, we have a relatively straight forward account of a man dying,
KW> and a few nuts turning it into some sort of holy happening. John P.
is
KW> waiting to witness JFK's return. You are waiting to witness JHC's
KW> return. It can be established that both of these men dies, that the
KW> deaths were witnessed by people who knew and loved them. There are
KW> first person accounts one of the people who recorded these accounts> to contradict everything
KW> from how many gun men there where, to how many holes there were in
KW> JFK's head, to the very fact of his death. So, how is the first person
KW> account of a man claiming that he saw JHC after his death different
KW> from the account of the man who claims he has witnessed JFK being
KW> smuggled out in a coma?
And does he have people agreeing with him. Who ALSO saw the exact same
thing?
KW> Al, you are fond of pointing out that the early xtians held to their
KW> beliefs even to the point of torture and death. Fanatics
KW> *will* do so, no matter how odd, strange, or downright unreal the
KW> beliefs are. Why is this group any different that the legend of the
KW> widow Hannah, who's seven sons one by one were murdered for refusing
to
KW> worship before Antichus?
Because what they were asserting was an event; I do not claim the deaths
or imprisonment of Paul, or Polycarp, or Ignatius need be more than sheer
fanaticism. Similarly with Joan of Arc.
But the disciples are a different matter. They aren't relying on
second-hand info. In a very real sense, they weren't relying on faith at
all. They either took in what eventually became most of the Western world
for a hoax, or they had a mass hallucination (which is an oxymoron) or
they were telling the truth. Even Bultzmann, skeptical about many things,
thought that the disciples did actually believe Jesus returned from the
dead, although he thought they were mistaken in their beliefs. If they
lied, they lied for a faith which specifically talks about the damnation
of liars and "the truth shall set you free" and they endured floggings,
in
some cases death, in some cases imprisonment for it. There IS a difference
here. It's like---
Okay, the Anita Hill case. Some people think Clarence Thomas was being
maligned by an opportunistic female. Some people think Thomas is a
lecherous monster. (I opt for the latter, BTW.) We all can have opinions
on such, and argue it back and forth.
But two people know the truth. Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill. And one
of them lied. One of them isn't deluded. One of them is lying, and the
other is telling the truth. Or OJ. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. But HE
knows. It's not a case of his fanaticism, or his delusion. He knows if he
did or didn't. Or Packwood. At first he denied the womanchasing rumors.
But when woman after woman came forth to confirm it, eventually he changed
his stories, knowing his lone denial would not be believed against at
least a dozen witnesses.
The disciples are like that. They either saw a risen Jesus or instigated
the greatest fraud in the history of the world. It's not a matter of
faith. If they instigated a FRAUD, they KNEW THERE WAS NOTHING TO HAVE
FAITH IN!!!
... Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical. Virgins are.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ROB BURCHAM
|Sub: CHRISTMAS
|Date: 12 Jan 96 09:55:00
EID:f368 202c4ee0
AS> Only if you don't believe it. If you do, you have to donate your gains
to
AS> actually HELPING people, neither popular or profitable.
RB> Further proof that most Christians don't really believe it.
But a significant minority do. A lot just come to church, and don't think
about it the rest of the week. But I have seen a good many actually do
something about it.
RB> They believe it when it's expedient to do so.
True. But sooner or later it may penetrate what the ritual is FOR, besides
just to lose sleep Sunday morning. They might actually listen to the
sermon and realize there is a real call there.
... Veni Vidi Fetuccini: I came, I saw, I had lunch.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ALL
|Sub: RE: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 12 Jan 96 10:02:00
EID:de74 202c5040
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Jim Staal <=-
GR> but
JS> refuse my many invites to breakfast so the awful truth can be known
JS> once and for all...
GR> Why should I accept them? You admit that you have mental problems.
GR> You admit that you have been on medication for your mental problems.
GR> And you admit that you have decided you don't need to take your
GR> medicine.
GR> My mom didn't raise an Einstein but she didn't raise a fool either.
GR> I'll meet you on my turf at the time of my choosing with Dave
GR> Oosterman's gaurantee that you are not carrying a gun.
Wow. Gunfight in the HS corral.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 12 Jan 96 10:07:00
EID:5b7e 202c50e0
AS> Then you build a BIG plate in back, made of lead (you'll find
AS> out why in a second) and, to put it simply, springs. A giant
AS> "pusher plate."
JH> A parabolic dish would be more efficient that a flat plate.
Yeah, I had a copy of ANALOG that had a good diagram of a proposed Orion
ship and how it would be built, which naturally I could not find when I
was writing that.
JH> I'm familiar with the concept (it was in Clarke's original
JH> outlines for 2001, but was dropped because it would look
JH> silly to have Discovery putt-putting it's way to Jupiter).
Plus too much like Dr. Strangelove, Kubrick's earlier hit...they would
talk of Kubrick's fascination with atom bombs.
AS> It would still take forty years to reach Alpha Centauri.
JH> A realisticly workable time frame. (But I suspect you need to
JH> add a handfull of years for acceleration and braking.)
True.
JH> Biggest problem I have with the concept is that it is hideously
JH> inefficient. Most of the energy of your blasts is lost into space.
Yeah. But that's the only one that works with KNOWN technology without
anything more. Now, if they could make a photon jet out of the fusion,
but....still technology of the future, not technology of today.
... All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 12 Jan 96 10:12:00
EID:5b7e 202c5180
JH>> No... come to think of it, Clarke did use ships like that
JH>> in Fountains of Paradise. But most of the action in the
JH>> book takes place planet-side.
AS> Okay.
JH> No, not okay.
JH> Fountains was his "molecular monofilament"/"orbital elevator" story.
JH> He used the concept in a novel, but I flubbed the reference.
I didn't remember it in Fountains, but I don't have a copy at home, so I
took your word for it.
... It IS as bad as you think and they ARE out to get you.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 12 Jan 96 10:20:00
EID:26ed 202c5280
JS> Our father (Mark's and myself) is currently in a nursing home...in a
JS> somewhat pitiable state of semi-consciousness. He still realizes
JS> pain, but it is doubtful that is aware of much else. He had another
JS> stroke in the hopital a day before they chipped him out to the home
JS> that left him in this final state. This has been particularly rough
on
JS> Markie, as he lived at home with the folks for almost 30 years, prior
JS> to his marriage last year.
Genuinely sorry to hear about your father's stroke and condition.
I hope you will draw comfort from the God that exists and the family that
you have.
... "We can easily endure adversity. Another man's I mean." -- Twain
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: DOOFUS...
|Date: 12 Jan 96 10:34:00
EID:aace 202c5440
AS> Mine is the opposite. Used books are at a PREMIUM about sf/fantasy,
AS> being little less than the new stuff. Lots of colleges and
AS> universities here, so there are a lot of imaginative youngers...i.e.,
AS> sf buffs.
SA> Well, the BookMark (the second-hand place) has about the biggest sf
SA> section I've seen in the city. We don't even have a place that has
SA> a decent selection of RPG materials, either - the closest would be
SA> the Sci-Fi Shop (which doesn't generally sell books - they mostly
SA> sell movie and Star Trek paraphenalia), and there you have to ORDER
SA> stuff .. if you don't mind waiting a few months. There are
SA> apparently places in/around Detroit where such can be had, but
SA> that's sort of a pain, too. Who wants to go to Detroit? :P
Any comic book shops in the area? They often have RPG stuff.
AS> It was the first sf game (as opposed to fantasy) in RPG that I know
AS> of.
SA>
SA> Hm. The first one I ever heard of was a Star Trek RPG back in '82
SA> or so. Though my memory of the date might be off a year or two.
And this was '80 or '81 that I played Traveller.
AS> Definitely. Looked just like Weird Al Yankowitz, too....
SA> Oh, scary. :)
You think that's scary? He ACTED like him too...
... Famous last words #11: No, it's NOT loaded.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: HEAVENLY AND DAZED 01/
|Date: 12 Jan 96 13:35:00
EID:d4ef 202c6c60
AS> KW> 'cock-ring' effect, they would deflate and the bottle would slid
right
AS> KW> off. Solid plastic or metal cockrings were occasional offenders,
too.
AS> KW> They were dealt with with a ring cutter.
AS> They must look interesting walking into the Emergency room...
KW> Hey, there is an excuse for gang pants! Anyway, Bear tells me that
KW> the ones that he saw came in by ambulance, swathed in sheets. Seems
KW> that they panic, call 911, and hope that the EMT's can get them loose.
KW> In most cases, they can (apply ice to the base, and ease a swab down
KW> the side of the bottle to break the seal). If they can't, it's because
KW> the patent had tried something, anything to get loose and caused more
KW> swelling, or they poked it into something way to tight to force a swab
KW> down to breach the seal.
You realize I am crossing my legs while reading this...to you it's an
abstraction. To me it's something that could HAPPEN (if I was dumb enough
to do it.)
AS> Don't blame you. Didja know though, that they may have found the graves
of
AS> Amazon warriors on the Russian steppes? At least according to the
AS> ARCHEOLOGY program on TLC...
KW> I saw a part of that (dontya hate catching just the last few minutes
KW> of a good program?). You are talking about the tattooed mummies?
Yes. The female skeletons buried with weapons on the Russian steppes, who
dated around the time and location that Herodotus mentioned. Since they
seemed to be mainly mounted warriors, that must have given them an
advantage over their mostly on-foot oponents. Also, they mentioned towards
the end that the society changed in a matter of centuries and then became
male-dominated. Still...it's freaky to think that there might have been
a
Hippolyte or Antiope...
KW> Not those choice ads, not if you want any support out of me.
KW> Those ads can be terribly punishing to a woman who's had a
KW> miscarriage, also. I remember how I reacted to seeing one of those
KW> things right after I had lost a baby. I cried for hours. As for
My sympathies. It was only an example.
KW> xtains and midwives, by early xtians do you mean before or after there
KW> were enough of them to start burning 'heretics' and 'witches'? Or
KW> weren't you aware that midwives were one of the targeted groups during
KW> the burning times?
Sure. And I'm aware when the burning times mainly were. I'm talking about
say, first to third century AD. The heretic-killing, to our shame, was
fairly early, but the major Witch Hunts were a relatively late phenomenon,
between 13 to 17 centuries after Christ. Charlemagne, crowned by a pope,
FORBADE witch-killing in his Empire. Oh, don't get me wrong, Katherine.
I'm sure there were many killed as witches who were gentle midwives. But
the organized abomination was a relatively late invention. Before that,
it
was a hamlet here, a hamlet there. Those who practiced the older religions
WERE forced underground or had to give it up altogether. But for instance,
they didn't kill the druids of England (or if they did, I don't know it)
but instead converted them. They DID build their churches on the old sites
of worship, which could be viewed as an insult, or as a giving in to local
feeling for the sacredness of a location. They were NOT eclectic, so they
didn't assimilate the old religion, so that is certainly a difference
between Christianity and the pagan cultures that preceded it.
In other words...yes, it was awful. Yes, they shouldn't have done it.
But the Romans ALSO had some extreme differences with practitioners of the
old ways. And certainly I'm not going to deny or excuse the slaughter that
went on, but I will encourage examples where that did NOT go on.
AS> I'm reminded of a cartoon of a flasher opening his raincoat