God Damned Fundies!
|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: FOF update
|Date: 25 Jan 96 06:38:01
EID:1e59 203934c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31088111
-=> Quoting Mark Hogan to Steve Wallis <=-
-=> Quoting Steve Wallis to Mark Hogan <=-
-=> Quoting Mark Hogan to Steve Wallis <=-
MH>
-=> Quoting Steve Wallis to LARRY SITES <=-
SW>
SW> Larry, you really do play the part of a fool well. If your so against
SW> Focus on the Family, then why do you call them and waist there time
SW> ordering books from them?
SW>
SW> You actually cancelled your AOL membership becuase they are for Focus
SW> on the Family!!! Hahahahahahahahaha! Wake up Larry! No matter what
SW> online service you call your gonna find information and people who dont
SW> share your exact same views in life. Being a man of an analitical
SW> mindset, you really outdid yourself this time.
MH>
MH> Steve, you're not understanding. Perhaps you portray the fool
MH> better than anyone, if you didn't comprehend what Larry was
SW>
SW> Wisdom is justified by her children Mark.
MH>
MH> Is that all you can do; babble? You're not understanding. I'm
MH> beginning to think it's because you're willfully ignorant, Steve. Wise
MH> up, already.
Think what you will Mark, your opinion's dont mean a cent to me.
MH> lamenting upon. Focus of the Family isn't just providing
MH> information on AOL, they're influencing it, and trying to
MH> 'cleanse' it, to their satisfication and nobody else's. Let's say
MH> they decide to do-away with laughing, virtually. "God wouldn't
MH> approve," they say. Well, you're on your first offense. A couple
MH> more, and you're gone. It's not a silly example, as they're
MH> already banning what is, in only their opinion, malediction. If
MH> they don't like what you say, they'll take action. It sounds
MH> ridiculous, but hey. They are.
MH>
SW>
SW> Well, if it's their online service or AOL supports focus on the
SW> family, then Focus on the family has the right to mediate what they
SW> feel is appropriate material and to censor what they deem as not. It
SW> is a comercial business Mark, not a democracey.
MH>
MH> You're wholly missing the point. FOF is redundant. People are
MH> supposed to mediate their -own- fields of what they find tolerable,
MH> and what they don't. If you lack that judgement, I don't see why you
MH> should be permitted to live, nevermind reap enjoyment out of
MH> privileges.
Your missing the point-They own it Mark, They can do what they will with
it. If you dont like it-dont subscribe Mark-Frankly, I really dont care.
MH>
MH> "But, whoops. Steve says it's so. He -must- be right, no matter
MH> how wrong he is. I guess I just don't have a choice; after all, this
MH> is North America -- a dictatorship. We don't have an opinion here,
MH> right Steve?"
You have the choice to subscribe to it-and you have the choice not to. Be
happy Mark, you have a freewill! You are able to enjoy what you will, and
the right to do as you please.
MH> For one thing, AOL isn't at all worth subscribing to in the
MH> first place. Second, they've severely crippled themselves, in what
MH> they allow to pass through their net-flood gates. Third, they have
MH> this silly organization that wants to enforce control over others'
MH> free thought and will, through written-censorship.
SW>
SW> It might not be worth subscribing for you but other's opinions may
SW> vary. If they want to censar what they deem immoral material, they have
SW> the right to do so. They have tons of subscribers and what might prove
SW> tolerable to one might be offensive to another. One cant please
SW> everyone in life and there trying the best they can to clean up OAL
and
SW> make it into something family's can enjoy. That is there right if they
SW> choose to do so and I support them on that.
MH>
MH> You're a fool. We're individuals -- I don't want my individuality
MH> taken/stripped away, just because some pompous fool thinks they own
MH> the right to deem what they think is too explicit for me. I'm an
Have you been modeming for so long that your computer is such an intrical
part of your life that when an online service changes to a more Christian
like atmosphere, your whole individuality is taken/stripped away??? !!!
MH> individual, and I have individual rights. I have, and only I have, the
MH> right to deign what I want to see/read/hear/say. We're not slaves, and
MH> I refuse to be a virtual/digital slave to some militant fundy group
MH> who're trying to 'save us.' From who, ourselves? Get bent. I like, and
MH> am happy, with who I am. I don't need you telling me, or some group
MH> dictating to me, what's right and wrong. I know those for myself; as
MH> an individual. As long as I abide by the law, they can't touch me.
Your talking like your on trial here Mark. In case you dont know, I am not
your judge. Take this for an example- Look at bbs's, there are some that
have strict guidlines-ex. No swearing, No Handles, No Pirate Warze. And
then
you have bbs's that have swearing all over the place, Handles for every
user and pirated software as a files base. If you call a "clean bbs" What
are you gonna do, tell the sysop you want handles, swearing and pirate warze
on it so you can make a choice on what you read and download? No, you
wouldnt. You would have to call a bourd that has all the "dirt" on it to
find that and then, you could make your choice on what you deem as moral.
If you dont like a certain bbs, dont call it. Or start your own and configure
it to your standard of ethics.
SW> Surprized you didnt petition to your sysop to remove
SW> Holy Smoke from the message area-after all Larry, there
SW> are Christians on it...
MH>
MH> Smarten up, Steve. The two are incomparable. You can speak
MH> your mind here; you can't, on AOL. Is that clarified enough for
MH> you?
MH>
SW> Calm down killer, I was making a point. But even on these message
SW> echo's, one cant just do or say whatever they like. Most of them have
SW> strict guidlines that the mediator invokes to moderate his echo. If
SW> one doesnt like it, then they can switch to another echo or....start
SW> there own...
MH>
MH> You weren't making a point, you were being an ass. You still are,
MH> for that matter. "You can't say or do whatever you like." Watch me!
MH> Look, I'm jumping up and down, Steve. Stop me! I like it fine, and
MH> there's nothing you can do to stop me, Hitler-boy.
"hitler boy"? I seriously doubt that one. And you know full well what I
was saying and you also know I was right. If Styx decided one day not
to allow lets say swearing in here-thats his right. And he could bounce,
whoever he wanted off his echo. He owns it-he moderates it. Your whining
about wouldnt change that.
MH> What's that, Steve? "Then they can switch to another echo or ...
MH> start their own." Wow! That almost sounds like a judgement call,
MH> something you were implying we're incapable of making. After all, if
MH> we were capable of making those, why would we need FOF to make them
MH> for us? Golly, I think you're full of shit. You hypocrite!
I real dont care what you think Mark, Im not trying to gain your respect.
Again, your under the misguided notion that im trying to put you on trial,
which is wrong. Like I said, Im not your judge Mark. Even on footnote, I
preached freewill. If your too stiffnecked to see that then thats your
sorry problem. I believe in rights and freedoms guy. And if AOL chooses
to be a Christian online service, guess what Mark...."Thats their right!"
Godbless!
Steve
... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: HI
|Date: 25 Jan 96 07:29:10
EID:3ddd 20393ba0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 f14ece9e
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31062b36
On (24 Jan 96) Steve Wallis wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Annette Spence <=-
MB> On (19 Jan 96) Annette Spence wrote to Hector Plasmic...
HP> Simple question: if your gods didn't create evil, who did? If it was
a
HP> creation of your gods that did, didn't your gods indirectly create it?
HP> If something not created by your gods did, where'd _that_ come from?
AS> In my opinion, evil is a choice not a thing to be invented.
MB> Then how come Jehovah, in the first person, yet, bragged about
MB> having created it (in Isaiah)?
SW> Where does it say that Marilyn? I dont believe Ive read that
SW> scripture. You want to know why? Becuase its not there. Sin is a
SW> violation of the law. When God's law was broken sin was born.
SW> May God provide you with wisdom. Godbless!
You're the one who needs wisdom, fundy.
Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Why is it we heathens know your fucking book so damned much better
than you fundies?
... Creationists: Transitional forms between idiots and morons.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Lump
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 25 Jan 96 14:22:04
EID:4fdb 203972c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31079711
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3106536f
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Lump <=-
JS>
GR> Did your old man croak yet or is god still letting him suffer?
JS>
JS> You are west side sleaze in it's lowest state, george...
JS>
...Yeah, I told him that in a few different ways and vivid
words......
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Lump
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 25 Jan 96 14:32:04
EID:10cd 20397400
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31079712
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Lump <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31065371
-=> Quoting Lump to Steve Quarrella <=-
Lu> @MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31045bc9
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Lump <=-
SQ> 3 Jan 96, dixit Lump ad Fredric Rice:
L> ....except the smell of furds burning in the morning,-Martin Sheen
SQ> Try again...it was Robert Duvall.
Lu>
Lu> Nooo, it was Martin Sheen: "There's nothing like the smell
Lu> of _______ burning in the morning"< Apocolypse Now >
JS>
JS> Perhaps, but it was Robert Duvall who said in the same movie, 'I love
JS> the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells...like victory'.
.....Yes, it was, but marty said the above quote earlier in the
movie...I remember when Duvall said, when he was in his cubby as
Sheen was coming to kill him....
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Luke Clark
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: -------
|Date: 22 Jan 96 22:21:20
EID:324c 2036b2a0
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31044620
-=> Katherine Wintersnight invoked Re: ------- which summoned Luke Clark<=-
LC> Maybe it was the primary religion, but the Founders such as
LC> Franklin, Jefferson, and Washington were Deists (They believed in
LC> god, but they didn't believe in one of the major religions.One of the
LC> prerequesites of Free Masonry is that you believe in God).
KW>
KW> Not God, Luke, a god. A stated belief in *a* supreme creator is
KW> specified, but which 'supreme' creator is not. There are Pagan
KW> Masons.
I'm aware of that.When I say God, I don't neccesarilly refer
to YHVH, Jesus, Allah, or any other such thing.
Luke
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Luke Clark
|To: Larry Sites
|Sub: Re: FOF=child abuse
|Date: 22 Jan 96 22:48:22
EID:67d2 2036b600
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31044c76
-=> Larry Sites invoked FOF=child abuse which summoned All<=-
LS> Article 14 gives the child the right to freedom of thought,
LS> conscience, and religion.
All the horor!!!
LS> courts force the parents to allow the child to
LS> think whatever he wills,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What, the Christians are going to start "Thought Police"?
If you think blasphemous thoughts, you can be disciplined?
Also, how the fuck will any being stop any other being from
thinking what they will?
I don't think technology has progressed that far.
LS> Parents would not be able to require their child to learn
LS> about the Bible or attend church if the
LS> child did not want to do so (Article 14).
This is good.Now maybe my parents won't make me go.
Of course, if the christians had their way, EVERYONE would be nice
bible reading, church going, decent folk and 'blasphemous' books
by 'Nietzsche', 'Lovecraft', 'Rand', 'Crowley', and others would
be burned.How like the Nazis.
LS> Parents would have no say regarding their child's choice of
LS> friends (Article 15).
Like they really would anyway.What are they going to do, follow them
around all day? Why not hold their dick for 'em so they can't
fornicate when they take a piss?
LS> Parents could be prohibited from spanking their children
LS> (Article 18).
In other words, there prohibited from doing something to some one
less than 1/2 their size which would be illegal for them to do to
any one else.
LS> What Next?
No more welts on the ass?
Luke
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Luke Clark
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 22 Jan 96 23:13:24
EID:31ac 2036b9a0
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31045254
-=> Jim Staal invoked Holiday Greetings... which summoned Luke Clark<=-
-=> Quoting Luke Clark to Jim Staal <=-
JS> (Rom 9:19 NIV) One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still
JS> blame us? For who resists his will?"
JS> (Rom 9:20 NIV) But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall
JS> what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like
JS> this?'"
LC> Yes this one shall say that! The above is a cop out!
JS> A cop out for whom?
Paul.It set's it up nice so he doesn't have to answer any hard
philosophical questions about Pre-Destination vs. Free Will.
LC> I question
LC> him.If he has any comments, he knows where to find me.
JS> Sounds like it is starting to get personal, Luke...
Hey, he know's where I am.If he has anything to say, I'm listening.
He supposedly bashed a guy of a horse and caused faith in him,
so why not a teenager in Baltimore?
JS> I used to, Luke...soem dude by the name of 'the red rooster' (a
JS> protege of Bobby the brain) used win his matches with a hold he called
JS> the 'chicken wing'.
LC> The Red Rooster? That was one of the more dim-witted gimicks the
LC> WWF had.I was referring to the move Bob Backlund will put on you
LC> if don't call him "Mister Backlund".
JS> Oh...like MISTER Backlund? Does he have the dude stand on a Milk Crate
JS> [TM]?
He,he,he... well, no...
JS> (1 Cor 15:22 NIV) For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be
JS> made alive.
JS> (Psa 51:5 NIV) Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my
JS> mother conceived me.
JS> King David speaking on this last one...a man the Bible calls 'a man
JS> after God's own heart'. The dude knows what he is talking about.
LC> How where they sinful.I want a reason, not mindless repitition.
JS> When you say 'mindless repetition' it starts to sound personal, Luke.
I'm just making an observation.Does not the Lord want you to be wise
as serpents? (Which has some interesting possibilities considering
the apparent Serpent/Satan correspondence).You don't really say to much
that I haven't heard before.If you want Christianity to last, it needs
to start being original.Not neccesarily changing the bible, but
changing it's preaching tactics.
LC> How is a child responsible for the sin of Adam.Isn't sin a
LC> choice?
JS> Our 'original sin' in Adam is no choice for us. It was one for him,
JS> but in making his choice, he made it for all who were to come after
JS> him. A child is responsible for the sin of Adam because God said
JS> he/she is. He does make the rules, ya know...:)
Doesn't that violate Old Testament codes about the son not being
responsible for the sins of his father, nor the father being responsible
for the sins of his son (I believe it's in Deuteronomy)?
JS> No claim is made that this is going to satisfy man's logic or sense
of
JS> justice. It doesn't have to. God's logic and justice are beyond
JS> question.
LC> For you.That's a slave mentality, that won't question his master.
JS> When you say 'slave mentality' it sounds like it is getting personal,
JS> Luke. In any event, the questions were there once, and then answered
JS> when that scripture was read.
The trouble is, I've pretty much done the vestiges of the Christian
paradigm from with in me.I can't believe blindly.
LC> How did they sin?
JS> By impution through their father, Adam.
LC> I'm sure Hitler used a similar rationalization to justify the
LC> Holocaust.
JS> I neither know nor care how that heinous individual rationalized his
JS> sorry actions. That is of no concern to me. I cannot do any thing
JS> about that. It is history. I can only do what I can to prevent it from
JS> happening in my town, in my lifetime.
That's a good approach to take.I try not to get caught up in revenge
and the like either.
JS> If the latter, the parents must carry full brunt of that one because
JS> if they had believed, then the infants would have been saved as well.
Where does it say that in the bible? How do you define 'the full brunt'?
I thought Hell was a pit of fire where all were tortured indescriminately?
Anyway, it does not speak well of your God if he's going to toss
little infants into the Lake of Fire.
LC> Your god didn't seem to care.All he seemed to care about what was
LC> vengeance, regardless of who he hurt.
JS> Not necessarily vengeance as you may think of it but rather justice:
JS> These are the rules, you break 'em, this is the punishment.
But how were the children aware of the rules? If child breaks certain rules,
do you punish them the same as an adult? It seems like your trying to
de-personalize god into a kind of force that just 'is'.
Everybody
JS> breaks the rules by nature. I have provided a way out. If you do not
JS> take it, the punishment stands.
In this country if there is a rule that everyone breaks, we get rid
of the offending rule.That's called democracy.But the bible doesn't
support democracy, does it? Heck, it might be construed to support
communism.
JS> It was perfect in that it had no sin. Adam made a choice. That choice
JS> affected the entire universe and everything in it.
LC> You agree sin is a choice.How could the babies make that choice?
JS> Adam had the choice in regard to this 'original sin' thing. We have
no
JS> choice about that. Everybody is afficted, like it or not.
Why did god allow that to happen, knowing that little babies would
be sent to hell?
LC> (This is interesting, as it applies to the Fundamentalist Pro-Life
LC> agenda)
JS> In what manner? (I have thoughts on this, but I would like to hear
JS> yours as well)
Damn this fido lag, I forgot.Hold on.
I was thinking that if being killed before you grew beyond infancy
was a ticket to heaven, you'd think Fundamentalist Christianity would
be fully in support of it.Also, what if somebody has an abortion, but
repents and is saved? Who carries the brunt of the death of that being
then?
Luke
JS> ! Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Luke Clark
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Re: Just take out the co
|Date: 22 Jan 96 23:26:26
EID:3bc8 2036bb40
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31045562
-=> Asmodeus invoked Re: Just take out the cor which summoned J.j. Hitt<=-
As> [B** Quoting J.J. Hitt to Asmodeus **
As> of anything outside that which I wish to accomplish. I
As> cannot say it is easy,
As> but at the same time not difficult.
Ever read Crowley's 'Magick in Theory and Practice"?
As> against someone for such a petty thing as that which you did. That
is
As> not deservant of death, which can occur if the magickian is willful
As> enough to summon such energy from within himself, and in that case
I
As> was quite angry.
Magick ain't gonna do shit if you sit on your ass all day.Magick
is way to focus your self on something, it won't get that something
by itself.You need to do what Crowley called "Manifesting the Magickal
Link".
As> incorrect in assuming this. I do not use drugs, as they
As> are truly harmful and
As> I do not wish to harm that which I love so much. Namely, me.
If you love yourself, why do you chose such Nihilistic Imagery?
Besides, if you follow a philosophy of Hedonism, wouldn't any
pleasure be acceptable?
I'm a Nihilist, myself (Go look it up).
I do not
As> fit the typical view of you most likely have of wanna-be-Pagans, as
I
As> am a true believer in my religion, and do not use it as a tool to
As> justify my actions.
Your shitting me! What purpose is there for your religion other
than to justify your actions?
Also, no curse will find its way to you any time
As> soon through me, unless you attempt to harm me other than through mere
As> words.
As> Please do not send me any more hate-mail, and I will respond in kind.
If he doesn't send you hate mail, you'll respond in kind?
You haven't gotten over the Masochism caused by Christianity,
have you?
Do what thou wilt.
Luke
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Luke Clark
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Re: On the fifth day of
|Date: 23 Jan 96 21:17:28
EID:2506 2037aa20
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 310588a8
-=> Asmodeus invoked Re: On the fifth day of S which summoned J.j. Hitt<=-
As> [B** Quoting J.J. Hitt to Asmodeus **
J>
As> Oh, one more thing: Have A Nice Day :)
Have A Nice Day? HAND?
I'm surprised you'd have one free to type the above.
Luke
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Luke Clark
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: Re: White-lighter Religi
|Date: 23 Jan 96 21:21:30
EID:abab 2037aaa0
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3105899a
-=> Richard Morrison invoked Re: White-lighter Religio which summoned Asmodeus<=-
A>Things occur that couldn't possibly happen, but they do, in my favo
A>everyday basis just about. Unlike other theists that pray, wind up
A>empty-handed, doubt, then pray again, I actually do something and w
A>what I want. It's a win/win situation.
RM> What about salvation?
Christian, save thy self.
Luke
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: Luke Clark
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: White-lighter Religi
|Date: 23 Jan 96 21:24:32
EID:7740 2037ab00
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31058a50
-=> Katherine Wintersnight invoked Re: White-lighter Religi which summoned
Asmodeus<=-
A>** Quoting Luke Clark to Asmodeus **
A>L> -=> Asmodeus invoked Re: White-lighter Religio which summoned Fredric
A>L> Rice<=-
KW> Asmodeus--a Christian demon most often associated with possessing
KW> nuns. Seems to be the christian demonic form of Aramaiti, the mother
of
KW> 'the people made of clay', an Iranian goddess and one of the precursors
KW> to 'Yahweh'.
Not completely correct.Asmodeus is not hebrew, he's persian.
He's mentioned in the Talmud as well as certain Apocryphal books.
He's not neccesarilly a Demon, in the sense that he's a fallen
angel, but is the leader of a race of independant spirits (Similar
to the Djinn of Islam), that have a choice of accepting the Torah
or not.
Luke
... A little greed can get you a lot of stuff.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Bloody weather.
|Date: 24 Jan 96 15:14:57
EID:1621 203879c0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 3106d961
Hi Marty...
On 22 Jan 96 11:52:03, Marty Leipzig penned the following to Robert Jackson
re: Bloody weather.
RJ> Yeah, how 'bout this seasonably warm weather us Gulfdwellers
RJ> are experiencing. BWAAHAHA!!
ML> I too was laughing, until I had to mow my lawn.
ML> IN JANUARY!
ML> At least you don't have to shovel clippings.
Just think, Marty... you could be here in Calgary enjoying the
-30 C temperatures, shovelling tonnes of snow off the sidewalk
and exchanging the front tires on your car for skis! B-})
John
... Winter is Nature's way of saying, "Up Yours!"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.21
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 24 Jan 96 10:39:26
EID:2991 203854e0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 3106d962
Hi Andrew...
On 21 Jan 96 00:52:50, Andrew Masten penned the following to Katherine
Wintersnight
re: Viability
AM> If in general your interested in findings that support the
AM> Bible, go to any Christian bookstore and get a copy of Evidence that
AM> Demands a Verdict. Written by Josh McDowell. This man is a lawyer who
AM> originally set out to write a book to debunk Christianity. But was
AM> instead compelled to write in favor of it.
I just finished "Reasons Skeptics Should Consider
Christianity". What a load of CRAP! McDowell just repeats the
same lies and obfuscations we've been reading for years.
However, for your edification, I present this! (I didn't write
it)
_ _ _O_/_ _C_u_t_ _H_e_r_e_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
O \
Top Ten List Of More Accurate Names For Josh McDowell's
"Evidence That Demands A Verdict"
10. A Verdict That Demands Evidence
9. Evidence That Demands A Better Lawyer
8. Evidence That Not Nearly Enough Money Is Being Spent On
Education In This Country
7. Evidence That Had The Jury Rolling Their Eyes In Disbelief
6. Evidence That Sucks (formerly Evidence That Wouldn't Fool
Beavis And Butthead, Let Alone A Thinking
Person)
5. Josh McDowell's Exhaustive Handbook Of Logical Fallacies, With
Many Examples
4. Evidence That Would Get Your Butt Thrown In Jail On A
"Contempt Of Court" Charge.
3. Evidence That People Really Will Believe Anything They See In
Print
2. Evidence That Josh McDowell Is Really An Atheist Who Is Trying
To Make All Christians Look Like Morons
And the number one more accurate name for Josh McDowell's
Evidence That Demands A Verdict is...
[drumroll]
1. Evidence That Demands A Verdict, But Can't Even Justify A
Search Warrant
_ _ _O_/_ _C_u_t_ _H_e_r_e_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
O \
Next...
... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.21
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: [1/3] Evidence
|Date: 24 Jan 96 10:49:23
EID:ce77 20385620
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 3106d963
>>> Part 1 of 3...
Hi Andrew...
On 21 Jan 96 00:52:50, Andrew Masten penned the following to Katherine
Wintersnight
re: Viability
AM> If in general your interested in findings that support the
AM> Bible, go to any Christian bookstore and get a copy of Evidence that
AM> Demands a Verdict. Written by Josh McDowell. This man is a lawyer who
AM> originally set out to write a book to debunk Christianity. But was
AM> instead compelled to write in favor of it.
McDowell is a goof of the first water. Try this essay on for
size!
_ _ _O_/_ _C_u_t_ _H_e_r_e_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
O \
A Verdict That Defies the "Evidence"
By Bernard Katz
Copyright 1982 by The American Rationalist
The fundamentalist Christians have once again resurrected
themselves. like their Savior, to attack evolution and science,
sexuality and permissiveness. and whatever else they deem that
does not square with their viewpoint. To propagandise their
beliefs, they have built a vast communications network which
includes books, pamphlets, magazines, newspapers, and radio and
television stations, as well as the most sophisticated techniques
for collecting the necessary money to fuel these apologetic arms.
One of the many books used to buttress their Christian
apologetics is a compilation by Josh McDowell. His first volume
is titled Evidence that Demands a Verdict, published by the
Campus Crusade for Christ in 1972. Since it had gone through
fourteen printings by 1977 alone, it is important that its
"evidence" or arguments be closely analysed. I shall scrutinize
parts of chapter 11, "Prophecy Fulfilled in History," pages
277-333. This deals with the whole idea of prophecy as well as
how twelve specific ones were actually fulfilled and for this
reason constitute "one of the great proofs that there is a living
God behind the Bible and history" (p. VIII).
To McDowell, a "prophet is someone who tells God's will and the
future to the people as divine inspiration leads" (p. 278). It
follows that the fulfilling of these prophecies "is not only a
demonstration of God's power, but also of His answer to man's
prayers and needs" (p. 279).
Under the section on "Tests of a Prophet" (pp. 279-80), McDowell,
in interpreting chapter 13 in Deuteronomy, concludes: "If a
prophet presented fulfilled predictive prophecy, yet claimed a
theology out of keeping with the norm set down by Moses, the
people had a false prophet" (p. 280). This statement alone, I
should think, is enough to condemn the Christian religion
outright, for there is much in the books of Moses which
contravenes Christian theology. That is the reason why the
crucifixion of Jesus on the cross was such a scandal (Galatians
3:13). For the Mosaic law laid down in Deut. 21:22-3 declares:
"And if a man committed a crime punishable by death and he is put
to death, and you hang him on a tree... for a hanged man is
accursed by God.. ." Not only did Paul have to gather all of his
powers of sophistry to twist the ignomy of Jesus' death on a
cross (or tree) from one of great embarrassment to one of a
positive good, but Christians today are still struggling with
this thorny problem.
One of the many dishonest techniques McDowell uses are sins of
omission." This is what I mean. He has just told us that the test
of a true prophet is found in Deuteronomy 13. But he doesn't tell
you to read further on, especially Deut. 18:21-22. For here is
another test to distinguish the true prophet from the false. To
the question "How do we know the word which the Lord has not
spoken?" the Scripture answers: 'when a prophet speaks in the
name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true,
that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has
spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him." And
just two verses before this, we find that the punishment for such
presumptuousness is: ". . . that same prophet shall die." Since
it can be proven that many of Jesus' prophecies were not
fulfilled, and I shall do so later on with one of them, then it
follows that Jesus was rightfully executed.
In his next section, McDowell tries to anticipate a major
objection by critics of predictive prophecy. He says: "As far as
the question of dating prophecies goes, many people will attack
predictive prophecy from the standpoint of post-dating, that is
placing the prophecy after the event of the fulfillment rather
than before. Unfortunately for the critic, these prophets make
their prophecies very clear-the tenses are very obvious" (p.
280-1).
Unfortunately for McDowell, the dates he accepts for the various
prophetic books don't all hold up. For example, he dates the book
of Daniel at 605-538 BC (p. 281). This is clearly false according
to the prestigious Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible, edited by
James Hastings and revised by two top Protestant scholars H. H.
Rowley and F. C. Grant.
In the article on the book of Daniel, p. 200, we discover:"...
The relations between Syria and Egypt, from the 4th to the 2nd
centuries BC are described with a fulness of detail. . . the
events from 323 to 175 BC occupy 16 versus; those from 175 to 164
BC take up 25; at verse 34 the lines become less definite,
because this is the point at which the book was written; at verse
40 prediction begins, and the language no longer corresponds with
the facts of history. There can be little doubt that Daniel
appeared about 164 BC"
Further on in the article we are told that: "The theological
features are what might be expected in the 2nd century BC"
So much for McDowell's uncritical acceptance of the date of
605-538 BC for the book of Daniel and his concluding assurance
that the Bible contains no post-dated prophecies!
>>> Continued to next message...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.21
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
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PATH: 134/67 1 17 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: [2/3] Evidence
|Date: 24 Jan 96 10:49:24
EID:0d72 20385620
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 3106d964
>>> Part 2 of 3...
Or take the date McDowell says the Jews who lived in Egypt
translated the Bible into Greek and his conclusions regarding the
prophetic books based on that date: "All of the Old Testament
prophets were translated into Greek in the Greek Septuagint by
about 280 BC Therefore, we can assume that all of the prophets
(including Joel and Obadiah) were written before this time" (p.
281). This is simply not so according to another highly reputable
source, the Abingdon Bible Commentary, edited by F. C. Eiselin,
E. Lewis, and D. G. Downey. In the chapter "The Transmission of
the Old Testament," pp. 103-4, we are given this information
about the Septuagint: "The books were translated at different
times by men unequally prepared for the task, the whole process
extending over a period of approximately two hundred years, from
about 250 to 50 BC" Notice that where McDowell says that the
cut-off date for the Greek translation is about 280 BC, Professor
I. M. Price, author of the Abingdon article, tells us that that
is when the translations were actually started!
In regard to the dating of Ezekiel, which has been the subject of
much controversy, McDowell uses as a witness the famous
archeologist W. F. Albright who, according to McDowell, stated
this in his The Old Testament and Archeology:".. this critical
attitude [i.e., to the dating of Ezekiel] is not justified in the
least, and to his way of thinking [i.e., Albright's], there seems
to be every reason for going back to a more conservative
attitude."
This statement, unfortunately for McDowell' a case, is
contradicted by the very same Albright, who says in his From the
Stone Age to Christianity, p. 326: .... . it is clear, however,
that the manuscript tradition [i.e., of Ezekiel] must have been
very corrupt, since the present massoretic text is full of
doublets and conflate readings, many of which were not yet
incorporated in the recension used by the Greek translators of
the second century BC" Since McDowell places the book of Ezekiel
at 592-570 BC, we have caught this apologist through his own
witness!
That last major criticism regarding McDowell's assumptions
concerns his statement which has already been quoted but bears
repetition because of its importance: "Unfortunately for the
critic, these prophets make their prophecies very clear- the
tenses are very obvious" (underlining mine).
But, as the following citation will show, this is not true. One
of the specific predictions taken up by McDowell to prove his
case is that of the prophet Nahum's prophecy about the
destruction of Nineveh. Here is what Hastings' Dictionary of the
Bible says on page 686 in its article on Nahum:
"Did Nahum prophecy before, during, or after the faIl of
Nineveh? Did he predict its fall, or only describe it after
the event? Scholars are divided on the answer to these
questions. Some of the verses use the Hebrew imperfect, and
seem to point to the future, such as 2:13; 3:5-7, 11, 15.
Other verses are so vivid and realistic in their description
of the attack on the city and its downfall that they appear
to have been written after Nineveh's capture, such as 2:1,
3-10; 3:1-4, 12 f., 18 f. Under the principles of Hebrew
syntax, the imperfect verbs may be translated by the English
present tense. It is to be considered as possible that Nahum
began to write, or to proclaim his message orally, before or
during the siege of Nineveh and completed it after the
successful capture. The last two verses.. appear to look
backward rather than forward" (underlining mine).
I believe this citation refutes McDowell's claim that "the tenses
are very obvious," as well as his declaration that there are no
post-datings in the writings of the prophets!
It should also be brought to the reader's attention that McDowell
has committed another "sin of omission" in his presentation of
the destruction of Nineveh, and that is that such a prophecy was
revoked in the book of Jonah. Here we find Jonah complaining to
God because God had destroyed the plant which was shading the
prophet. So God rebuked Jonah saying: "You have had pity for the
gourd, for which you have not labored nor made it grow, which
came up in a night, and perished in a night; and should not I
have pity on Nineveh, that great city..." (Jonah 4:10-11).
That the prediction of Nahum was annulled by the later book of
Jonah is proven by the dates in which the two books were written.
Nahum's is dated around 612 BC whereas Jonah's falls between 400
and 200 BC By these "sins of omission" McDowell perpetuates the
great evil of dishonesty.
So much for McDowell's prologue. Let's scrutinize some of the
specific prophecies he uses for "Christian evidences." He starts
off with those concerning the ancient city of Tyre because the
prophecies about its destruction are so easily proven. McDowell
refers to chapter 26:8 of Ezekiel which predicts that
"Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the mainland city of Tyre."
To avoid confusion and to add precision to this prediction, it
should be pointed out that Tyre consisted of a mother-city
located on an island off the east coast of Palestine and a
trading colony situated across from it on the mainland. McDowell
assumes that the prediction applies to that part of Tyre located
on the mainland because on page 281 he says: "The mainland city
of Tyre was destroyed in 573... but the city of Tyre on the
island remained a powerful city for several hundred years." (If
only part of the city were destroyed, how can the prediction be
true?)
But there are two further objections. One is that McDowell has
actually misread the Scripture! The actual biblical passage, and
McDowell gives it correctly on page 285 is: "He (i.e., Yahweh)
will slay,, your daughters on the mainland with a sword... Now
McDowell thinks this refers to the main or "mother" city of Tyre.
But he's got his P's and Q's backwards! The metropolis of Tyre
was actually on the island fortress and the so-called mainland
city was what we would today call a suburb. How do we know?
Because the text tells us so. It says: "He will slay your
daughters on the mainland..." (underlining mine). All ancient
cities which sent out colonies designated them as either "sons"
>>> Continued to next message...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.21
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB] (1:134/67)
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: [3/3] Evidence
|Date: 24 Jan 96 10:49:25
EID:8c70 20385620
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 3106d965
>>> Part 3 of 3...
or "daughters," depending on whether the inhabitants were
kin-folk or simply allies. In this case the Tyranians on the
mainland were allies and so were labelled "daughters." Therefore
the prediction of Ezekiel means the opposite of what McDowell
thinks!
The second objection is much more serious, and is once again due
to McDowell's 'sins of omission." To see that Ezekiel's prophecy
did not come true, all one has to do is to read two chapters
further on, to Ezekiel 29:17-20. Here he will be shocked, if he's
a Christian in the mold as McDowell, to find that Ezekiel admits
that he was wrong in this prediction; that Nebuchadnezzar never
"got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had
performed against it. Therefore says the Lord God... I will give
the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar." In other words, after
Ezekiel admits he was in error, he says that the Lord will
recompense the king of Babylon with Egypt for his troubles
against Tyre! Why doesn't McDowell point this out? Because his
best evidence of a fulfilled prophecy would, naturally, explode
his whole argument. After all, selectivity is the basis of
Christian apologetics!
There is not space to demolish each of McDowell's examples on
which his Christian "evidence" is based. I simply picked his best
shot. Yet I want to investigate briefly one more which I had
earlier promised to do. This deals with a so-called prophetic
fulfillment from the New Testament by Jesus (p. 321).
According to chapter 11 in the gospel according to Matthew, Jesus
(that paragon of loving kindness) pronounced the judgment of
destruction on four cities-Capernaum, Chorazin, Bethsaida, and
Tiberias-for not believing in his gospel.
Now McDowell states: "Three of these cities have perished. Only
the last named is standing today" (p. 321). If Tiberias has never
been destroyed, how could Jesus' prophecy of four cities
destroyed be considered true? Wouldn't you conclude that McDowell
has blown himself up on his own bomb? Now to the remarks
contained in McDowell's conclusion. He states: "What seemed to be
a great blow to the Christian faith, the Moslem invasion of the
Holy Land and the eventual military failure of the Crusades, is
in reality a great victory for the Christian. The Moslems
catalyzed the final sealing of many prophecies. How many
condemned cities in this study alone fell during or directly
because of the Crusades and Moslem invasions? It is rather
ironical that the apparent enemy of Christianity is, after closer
study, the principal pawn used by the Lord to complete his
purpose in the Church Age" (p. 332).
Try convincing a Moslem with that kind of sophistry! Just as the
fall of Jerusalem to the Romans was proof to the newly formed
Christian groups that God had abandoned his people the Jews and
had accepted in their place the "New Israel" of pagans, so the
Moslems interpreted their victories over the Christians as the
ascendency of Allah over the deity of their enemies.
There is another important objection: the predictive prophecies
were not for the far distant future, hundreds of years after the
oracle was proclaimed. If the people addressed by the prophet had
to wait beyond their lifetime for its fulfillment, what good was
such an oracle to them?
Here is what The Abingdon Bible Commentary says in the chapter on
"The Prophetic Literature," page 152: "Though prediction is not
of the essence of prophecy, the prophets were as vitally
interested in the future as they were in the present. . . Their
predictions bore mainly on the immediate future. While in details
they might be vague, and occasion ally mistaken..." (underlining
mine). You must admit that the appraisal given by the Christian
scholars in the Abingdon Commentary are much closer to the truth
than McDowell.
As has been frequently pointed out, McDowell commits "sins of
omission." Some of what McDowelI should have included if he
really were telling the truth can be found in the new and
prestigious Encyclopedia Judaica 's article "Prophets and
Prophecy," vol. 13, p. 1167: "Furthermore, several occasions are
specifically recorded in which an oracle delivered by an
acknowledged true prophet did not materialize in the manner in
which he predicted-even within his own lifetime! Only a few
examples of unfulfilled prophecies need be cited: Jeremiah
predicted an ignominious end for King Jehoiakim (Jer. 22:19); yet
II Kings 24:6 clearly belies this oracle. Ezekiel predicted the
destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar (26:7-14), but later
acknowledged that the king's siege of the city was unsuccessful
(29:17-20). Both Haggai's (2:21-23) and Zechariah's (4:6-7)
glorious anticipation and designs for Zerubbabel never
materialized."
As you can see, there is no contest between this passage of
intellectual honesty and McDowell's mendacity! His dishonesty
undermines the hard won achievements and credibility of scholars
in his own field and sows confusion and distrust among the
unsophisticated.
The only conclusion, I firmly believe, which one can come to is
that McDowell has based his so-called fulfilled prophecies on
ersatz proofs and that his is "a verdict that defies the
evidence!"
_ _ _O_/_ _C_u_t_ _H_e_r_e_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
O \
... Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you're an idiot.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.21
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB] (1:134/67)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: All
|Sub: For your info...
|Date: 24 Jan 96 22:24:39
EID:6af7 2038b300
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7f94cf01
========================================================================
Forwarded here by Marilyn Burge (1:105/40.666)
========================================================================
Area: A_THEIST
Date: 22 Jan 96 23:42:48 Public
From: christopher baker
To: All
Subject: Christian Coalition Numbers
========================================================================
* Copy of message posted via NETMAIL
* Date: 22 Jan 96 06:49:03
* From: sumner@rochgte.fidonet.org
* To: christopher baker @ 1:374/14
* Message text was not edited!
@INTL 1:374/14 1:1/31
@MSGID: 1:1/31 00e798c2
@REPLYTO 1:1/31.0 UUCP
@REPLYADDR sumner@rochgte.fidonet.org
@PID GIGO+ sn 37 at nisc vsn 0.99.950801
@Apparently-to: christopher.baker@f14.n374.z1.fidonet.org
From: Charles Sumner
Reply-To: sumner@rochgte.fidonet.org
@Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:49:03
@Message-Id: <822345985.AA07590@rochgte.fidonet.org>
@Subject: Christian Coalition Numbers
@To: chstate@ecunet.org
AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 3, 1996
Contact: Joseph Conn or Rob Boston
(202) 466-3234
CHRISTIAN COALITION GROSSLY EXAGGERATES ITS MEMBERSHIP;
DUES-PAYING MEMBERS ACTUALLY DROPPED IN 1995, MAGAZINE REPORTS
Ralph Reed, call your office: Over 1.3 million Christian Coalition
members are missing!
According to a report in Church & State magazine, dues-paying Christian
Coalition members are far fewer in number than claimed by the organization,
and the group's membership actually dropped dramatically in 1995.
The January Church & State reports that paid membership in the Christian
Coalition fell from 353,703 in September 1994 to 310,296 in September 1995.
The watchdog magazine said its information comes from the Christian
Coalition's own publication, the Christian American. The U.S. Postal Service
requires all publications that are mailed at the second-class postage rate
to
publish subscription and sales information each year.
The Christian American's officially reported circulation figures do not
square with claims made by the Christian Coalition in its press releases
and
other public statements. In those publicity efforts, the organization has
claimed that its membership increased from 1.2 million in 1994 to 1.7 million
in 1995.
The higher figures, however, appear to be bogus. The Christian American
is sent to anyone who contributes as little as $15 a year. If the Christian
Coalition currently has 1.7 million "members," more than 1.3 million have
apparently not paid their dues and are not receiving the organization's
flagship publication.
Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of
Church and State, charged that the Christian Coalition is grossly inflating
its actual membership in order to increase its political influence and appear
to be a growing movement.
"Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition has set a well-established pattern
of deception in many of its activities," said Lynn. "Wildly inflating its
membership figures is just part of that deplorable practice.
"There's no doubt that the Christian Coalition is a powerful force in the
Republican Party and American politics generally," Lynn continued. "But
it has
achieved that power in part by casting aside the truth."
Church & State is the monthly magazine of Americans United for Separation
of Church and State. Founded in 1947, Americans United is a Washington,
D.C.-based organization devoted to the preservation of religious liberty.
This press release may be distributed only in its entirety and may not be
edited or altered in form or content. Please contact Americans United for
Separation of Church and State at (202) 466-3234 for further information.
AmerUnited@aol.com; sumner@rochgte.fidonet.org
--
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- GIGO+ sn 37 at nisc vsn 0.99.950801
@Via GIGO 1:1/31, Mon Jan 22 1996 at 23:18 UTC
@Via QM 1:13/10, Mon Jan 22 18:29 EST (v1.26/b10)
-+- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
+ Origin: Rights On!-A_THEIST Echo Mod/Host-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
... Heaven for climate; Hell for company. Mark Twain
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: JIm Staal
|To: Coridon Henshaw
|Sub: Duh...let's wait a month...
|Date: 25 Jan 96 03:55:07
EID:e7f2 20391ee0
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3107032b
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Coridon Henshaw to Jim Staal <=-
LB>> he acted as though he had no idea what anyone was talking about
LB>> -- it wasn't until his own posted was regurgitated that he
LB>> suddenly remembered his own father had been ill.
JS>> No, I just didn't recall having mentioned it to any one here...
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
LB> I think half his trouble is that you've never let him
LB> sink in the mire of his own creation, and he's never really had his
LB> hand slapped for the sewage he puts out, like above.
CH> Nah...he lived with my parents for 29 years or so. Take that up with
CH> them (though he is going through some tough times with my father in
CH> the hospital, having suffered some serious strokes last Monday) He
CH> has been only married for a year and a couple of months. I only lived
CH> with my parents for 18 years. Been outa there for some 30 now...
Well...duh, Coridon, you certainly came up with this old news about two
weeks after everybody else...Why you always got to call names? Do you
think you are raising yourself staturally in any manner shape or form,
big man?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
CH> Does this refresh your memory, dipshit?
... get real, get a crate and get reconciled to me, your statural superior
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Dan's inellect...
|Date: 25 Jan 96 03:41:18
EID:0165 20391d20
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3107032c
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Staal <=-
DC> You do your religion real priud, you little peice of slime.
DC> And you are that horses ass, Jimbo.
How many horses was that, Dan?
Man, you 'better educated' sure have a way with the language...
I also love your eloquence:
DC> you stupid twerp.
DC> The only thing not meaningless here, dipdshit, is your fucking
DC> And you are that horses ass, Jimbo.
DC> you stupid twerp.
DC> The only thing not meaningless here, dipdshit, is your fucking
DC> And you are that horses ass, Jimbo.
DC> you stupid twerp.
DC> The only thing not meaningless here, dipdshit, is your fucking
DC> And you are that horses ass, Jimbo.
DC> you stupid twerp.
DC> The only thing not meaningless here, dipdshit, is your fucking
DC> And you are that horses ass, Jimbo.
DC> you stupid twerp.
DC> The only thing not meaningless here, dipdshit, is your fucking
DC> And you are that horses ass, Jimbo.
DC> you stupid twerp.
DC> The only thing not meaningless here, dipdshit, is your fucking
DC> And you are that horses ass, Jimbo.
Ahh...makes you proud, doesn't it, Dan? You are one bright boy. you
can't even spell your expletives properly...
... get real, get a crate and get reconciled to me, your statural superior
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: The Truth Teller
|To: FSNS Goliath BBS
|Sub: HA!
|Date: 25 Jan 96 03:58:08
EID:015a 20391f40
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3107032d
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting FSNS Goliath BBS to All <=-
FGB> 3.3 Q: What kind of behavior is alowed here?
FGB> A: Most anything, including flames. One thing that will get
FGB> you booted is modification of other people's quotes. If
FGB> somebody says fuck and you quote them and change 'fuck' to
FGB> 'f***' or some other variation, you will be clobbered. Check
FGB> the rules (posted on an ad-hoc basis by the moderator) for
FGB> more information.
Unless you name is Rice in which case you have the right to alter posts
to your heart's content without any measure of censure taken against
you.
FGB> 3.4 Q: Are "flames" allowed?
FGB> A: Flames are EXPECTED. You will be treated with respect and
FGB> courtesy if you extend it.
Speak for yourself, machine. This is a lie!
FGB> The most valuable contributors,
FGB> who provide references to what they say, are very seldom
FGB> flamed -- if you don't like flames, stick to posting what you
FGB> know or can validate.
Only don't bother with references from the Bible. Only secular
philosophers will be respected. Theories and outright lies are welcomed
with respect as well, but don't you dare quote scripture if you value
yourself in any way.
FGB> 3.5 Q: Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so full
FGB> of anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke?
FGB> A: These phrases are often used as replies to excessively
FGB> abrasive arguments by an agnostic or atheist that has
FGB> demonstrated the religionist's pet assertions false; the
FGB> religionist resorts to eliciting an emotional response
FGB> instead of addressing the topic at hand.
Another outright lie. These phrases are most often used in reply to
repeated personal assaults on the part of bitter atheist/pagans who
have no hope in life and therefore chose to abuse the intellect of
believers.
FGB> A: You may be missing the point. The people who are ridiculed
FGB> (as it were) are not those who profess a simple belief in a
FGB> creator; they are those who insist their beliefs are correct
FGB> and we MUST ALL bow down before GOD before we all roast in
FGB> Hell.
Another lie. It matters not one way or another. Say you believe, count
on being ridiculed. Even if you don't expect your antagonist to believe
(and say so) you still are a mindless automaton in their eyes and
mouth.
... get real, get a crate and get reconciled to me, your statural superior
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: Steve Wallis
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 25 Jan 96 01:24:00
EID:908e 20390b00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31076de2
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Steve Wallis <=-
JH>> Have any evidence of either?
SW> Read your Bible for proof of God. Open your eyes, breath a
SW> breath air. Look in the mirror, examine the world around
SW> you, look at the stars...look at the "Life"...
JH> Groovy... the "tweeting birds" argument.
SW> Open your eyes, breath a breath air.
JH> "breath a breath air" ?
SW> Look in the mirror,
JH> Looks like God needs to brush their hair... no wait, that's me.
JH> God looks like me? Why? Doesn't God have enough problems already?
SW> examine the world around you,
JH> There's the mirror, there's the sink... Yup, I'm in the bathroom.
SW> look at the stars...
JH> Ohmigod! It's full of stars!
SW> look at the "Life"...
JH> How did this breakfast cereal get in my bathroom?
SW> ...Look at your cemetary,
JH>
JH> I don't own a cemetery. I wish I did.
JH> People are just dying to get in them.
SW> look at the sin, look at the wickedness thats widespread,
SW> look at the deceptionin this world.
JH> So much for all the tweeting birds, huh?
JH> Sorry, sentimental clap-trap doesn't count as evidence.
Opinions vary, Let me ask you this then; What would it take to get you
to believe? If the only way your gonna believe is through "scientific
evidence" (so called anyway), then you have let the devil cheat you out
of your right to salvation.
Have a good day J.j. and Godbless!
Steve
... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Steve Wallis
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Judgement
|Date: 25 Jan 96 01:28:01
EID:ed3d 20390b80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31076de3
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Steve Wallis <=-
SW> May God remove the camaflouge and equip you with the
SW> knowledge of warfare. In Christ Jesus's name I pray.
JH> Fight, kill and mutilate for JESUS!
JH> YAY! YAY! YAY!
In the Bible it states "Though we walk in the flesh, we do not war in
the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty
through God, to the pulling down of strongholds, casting down imaginations,
and ever high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. And
bringing into captivity every thought to the obediance of Christ."
God loves you J.j. take care and Godbless!
Steve
... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Dave Ray
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 25 Jan 96 01:32:02
EID:21f7 20390c00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31076de4
-=> Quoting Dave Ray to Steve Wallis <=-
-=> So Anyway, Steve Wallis turned to Dave Ray and babbled about <=-
=-> A LITTLE HELP FROM SP <=-
-=> Quoting Christian Miller to Gwenny the Pooh <=-
CM> On Tuesday, January 9th, 1996 - Gwenny the Pooh wrote:
Gt> I've been to many "revivals" in my life. At every one, they asked
Gt> for money. I'm not judging on just one, but on many.
CM> Gee, if your child asks for a candybar, do you always give 'em one?
CM> Same thing...
DR> Maybe in your simplified mind.
DR> But you can bet the preacher will have dinner with the person who
DR> turns in an envelope with $1,000 instead of someone who puts $10 in
DR> the envelope.
SW> Why would you say that? Do you know every single preacher? Not every
SW> one is money hungry. If they ask for a contribution, its probally
SW> becuase they need it.
DR> True, most mean well. But if the leaders of the church want to get
DR> rid of this image, they need to police themselves. Doctors do it, cops
DR> do it, even Congress does it with enough public pressure.
Well, its part of Christianity. Without the tithes and support from the
congregation of believers, there wouldnt be churches. If you believe in
something, why not support it? I dont know where you stand in regards
to Christianity, but even if your not a Christian and you here of a local
mission in your area to help feed the homeless or something like that,
wouldnt you help out if you could?
Take care guy, and Godbless!
Steve
... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
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|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ?
|Date: 25 Jan 96 01:38:03
EID:df9d 20390cc0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31076de5
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Steve Wallis <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Steve Wallis mumbled "?"
DC>Your god is perfect, is he not? How can a perfect being not
DC>create something perfect?
SW> God created everthing in perfection and pure Holiness. However, He
PS> A claim. Substantiate it without the Bible, s'il vous plait.
My knowledge comes from the Word of God. I am not required to prove
anything to you. You have a mind and the ability to choose and believe
what you will. You can take God at His Word, or you can go in circles
looking for answers somewhere else. Its your choice Preston.
SW> created angels and mankind with the ability to choose whether to to
SW> good or evil. It's called freewill.
PS> Couldn't an omnipotent being have found a way to give us free will
PS> without letting us choose evil?
Nope. If God would have denied us our right to choose good or evil, it
wouldnt be a freewill and He would have infringed on our rights and
freedoms. God didnt want us to be robots, He created so we could choose
to follow Him and love Him out of our own free will.
SW> It says in John 3:3 "Eccept a man be born again, he cannot see the
SW> kingdom of God."
PS> A damned shame about all of those first century Peruvians and Chinese.
PS> They went to hell without ever getting a chance to hear about your
PS> god.
If they never had a chance to hear about Christ. Then when happens to them
is up to God. God is fair and just. He will judge everyone accourding to
what they know and have done. To him who has more, more will be required.
And to him who has little, less will be required.
SW> It's our choice to choose. We can choose to go to heaven or we can
SW> choose to go to hell. It boils down on our freewill.
PS> This is the same choice that a man confronted by a pistol-waving
PS> lunatic who wants his money has.
The difference is, your the only one holding the gun to your head. God
gave us the way out of this mess, when Jesus Christ died for us. God
loves us and doesnt want anyone to perish. The lake of fire was only meant
for the devil and his angels-not for man. God gave us the way out, but
we must do our part to recieve the gift that God gave us.
SW> God choose to send His Son to this world to pay the price for our
SW> sinfullness. But, we must excercise our freewill and choose whether
or
SW> not we accept the gift that God gave us or not. It boils down to our
SW> choice.
PS> Surely an allegedly omnibenevolent and omnipotent god could have found
PS> a better way to do this.
God could have forced you to accept Him, but what good would that do? Had
he done that, He would have infringed on your freewill. God is Holy and
a gentleman. He will not force Himself on you. If you dont want the gift
God gave you-its your choice, its still your right to recieve it. But
no ones gonna force it on you.
All we have to do to recieve the gift God gave us, is ask Christ to be Lord
and Saviour in our life. If we accept Christ as our personal Saviour then
we have confidence that we have been adopted as sons/daughters of God. If
we dont, then we are no better then what we were before.
Take it easy Preston, and Godbless!
Steve
... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Christian Miller's Christianity
|Date: 25 Jan 96 01:53:04
EID:6c88 20390ea0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31076de6
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Steve Wallis <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Steve Wallis mumbled "Christian Miller's
PS> Christianity"
JH> Sex In Public Places 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> Romance Echo 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> CD/Book/Movie Review 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> Sexual Stories 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> Sexual Fantasies 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> CatNet BBS Ads 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> Sexual Advice 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> 3 or Moresomes 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> S & M and B & D 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> Adult Humor 0 0 1 . . 454.
JH> Married, Will Cheat 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> At The Bar 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> CatNet SysOps Echo 0 0 0 . .
.
JH> Sex Toys 0 0 0 . .
.
PS>
JH> Totals: 248 248 2625 314856. 314856. 3587286.
JH> Of course, the more "interesting" areas are empty; but their very
JH> presence on a "Christian" BBS reflects directly on just what sort
JH> of character Mr. Miller actually is.
SW> Are you an ordained judge J.J.? Do you make a charge against Mr
SW> Miller? Or do you think you can mock Christ with your ridicule? It
PS> Who is mocking Christ? There's no profit in mocking the dead. However,
PS> when someone parades about a banner of spirituality and Christianity,
PS> he'd better damned well be able to support his claim by *acting* like
PS> it. Do those echoes above reflect a Christian morality?
True, there is no point in mocking the dead. But Christ is Alive and doing
well guy. For one thing, how do you know he was preaching against it and
hence had the echo's on it at one time? Im not saying this is the case
but why draw conclusions. They seem to be cut anyway. Im not gonna justify
it or condemn it-I am not the judge. And neither are you nor J.j. Is
Christian better than everyone? Or are you better than Christian? No. We
are all the same. As Christians we try to live in a way that is in
accourdance with the Word of God. It cant be done in mans strength, only
in the power of Christ. For instance, It say's in the Bible not to swear,
I myself swear quite abit. Does this mean im not a Christian? No. It simply
means that in my own strength, I can do nothing about it. I can try
harder and bite my tongue every time I swear, but its gonna continue until
I stop swearing by the power of Christ. Sin is all the same guy. There isnt
certain sins that are greater than others-there's no such thing as the
"little white lie". Its either sinful or its not. But who's to go to court
against Christian? As if none of you sin. Like it say's in the Bible,
he who is without sin, let him throw the first rock.
I see no reason to continue this particular thread against Christian. So,
why not drop the case and never mind about pulling the mote out of his
eye when you have a beem in your own. Im not perfect, and neither is anyone
else here in this echo. We are the same Preston.
Take care and Godbless..,
Steve
... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
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|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 25 Jan 96 02:08:05
EID:0aa2 20391100
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31076de7
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Steve Wallis <=-
LB> Lynda and Steve were killing time yakking about COINCIDENCE SEVEN:
GR> But there is going to come a day when dad won't be there to solve the
GR> problems. As a parent I can do nothing less than prepare him for that
GR> day, and that means teaching him how to solve his own problems. It
GR> hurts to see him fail, it hurts to see him get frustrated, but it is
GR> worth that look on his face when he dusts himself off, with direction
GR> of course, and solves the problems.
GR> It isn't the easy way, but it is the correct way.
LB> George -- you just described perfectly the Christian concept of why
LB> God lets us make harmful mistakes (THE question flying around here
LB> recently). Do you feel you are a bad or neglectful parent when you
let
LB> your child fail? Do you get off on watching him suffer, or does it
LB> bother you as much as it bothers him?
SW> Lynda, what kind of mindframe to you have? From reading the above,
SW> George replied what any loving father would have said in bringing up
SW> ones son to maturity and adulthood. And then you replied with your
SW> idle two bit comment on "Do you get off on watching him suffer?" Why
SW> would you write a sick thing like that? May God provide you with wisdom
SW> and understanding.
LB> Steve, how do I put this gently? You're an idiot! You completely
LB> missed the point, you're boxing at shadows, and you win the prize for
LB> being the only person in this whole echo who didn't understand what
I
LB> said. Now, go sit in the corner and think about it for a couple of
LB> hours -- you're going to smack yourself silly when you finally figure
LB> out what I was referencing there. Hint -- once you get it, you'll find
LB> out you agree with the point I made.
Well Lynda, the way I interpreted it was a knock against him for the way
he chose to bring up his son. If you meant it another way then I apologize
for what I wrote. George spoke with maturity and knowledge and it seemed
you flamed him for that. I have read it over a few times and still cant
see
what you said you were saying but im just gonna leave it at that. Have
a good one and Godbless!
Steve
... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
SEEN-BY: 107/941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 730/2 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: persevere
|Date: 25 Jan 96 06:11:18
EID:90e7 20393160
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d5c50d54
REPLY: 1:372/57@fidonet.org 95a8bb34
On (08 Jan 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Don Martin <=-
MB> We've sure gotten the mileage out of my word for the week, haven't
MB> we?
JB> Only another month and a half and 85 posts per day before Maria
JB> understands (or says she does) just where she screwed up.
And, as usual, I'm holding my breath waiting for the little
lightbulb to go on over her head.
... Guns don't kill. Hyper-velocity projectiles do.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: 325
|Date: 25 Jan 96 06:12:24
EID:18e6 20393180
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 5085def3
REPLY: 1:372/57@fidonet.org 4d3e5af2
On (09 Jan 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Judith Bandsma <=-
MB> I think she's confusing whether it has tax-exempt status with
MB> the IRS and "legal."
JB> I saw later that she is posting from Canada...whole different
JB> ball of gods.
JB> As to myself, I REALLY want Quaker put on my papers. That
JB> way, if something happens to me, and someone feels the need
JB> to call in any kind of religious prop, I won't have to listen
JB> to all the prayers, exhortations, etc. I'll have someone
JB> sitting there without saying a word.
Years ago I had a friend (now dead) who had had a hysterectomy
years before I knew her. Her doctor explained to her exactly what
would happen in surgery, how she'd feel afterwards, etc., leaving
her in an it's-no-big-deal frame of mind prior to the big day. She
was Catholic, but, as is more traditionally the case with blacks,
her mother was a pentecostal of some kind. Louise was in her bed
in the hospital the night before the grand opening, when in walks
her mother with an entourage from her church. They started in
praying to gawd in the inimitable manner of all pentecostals, and,
more particularly, as only black pentecostals can do. "Oh lawd,
spare this child of yours from the valley of death through which
she will walk in the morning. Guide the surgeon's hand and lead
her safely through this ordeal" etc. By the time her mother,
friends in tow behind her, left the room, Louise was convinced her
doctor had lied to her about the seriousness of the operation and
her chances for coming through it, and she was terrified.
... Would it not be better to grow up rather than born again?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: HI
|Date: 25 Jan 96 06:18:52
EID:4719 20393240
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7e80ae7a
On (24 Jan 96) Annette Spence wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> AS> In my opinion, evil is a choice not a thing to be invented.
AS> MB>
MB> Then how come Jehovah, in the first person, yet, bragged about
MB> having created it (in Isaiah)?
AS> I dunno...can you give me a passage so I can go look it up?
Are you trying to tell me that you've come on here, thinking
you can preach to the unwashed, and you don't even own a
concordance? You'd better buckle up. It's going to be a
rough ride.
Read the book of Isaiah. That's the only clue you get from me.
... Belief is acceptance without question. Thinking requires effort.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: STEVE QUARRELLA
|Sub: AL SCHRODINGER AND HIS PU
|Date: 24 Jan 96 19:52:00
EID:cad4 20389e80
SQ> He has MINE. He's not telling me how empty I am or how, if I kill
SQ> myself, I'm violating someone's rights. He just needs to remember the
SQ> BBS password that he forgot today (Hi, Al! I saw you. :).
I sure did. I dialed it, and stared...all my passwords fall in a certain
pattern, and for the life of me I couldn't remember where it fell in the
pattern.
... Not allowed? My dear fellow, I'm allowed everywhere. - Doctor Who
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 24 Jan 96 20:48:00
EID:7640 2038a600
AS> Let's hope we can get one of those things working before there is an
AS> enviormental collapse from overpopulation. It's a race against time.
DW> Don't let McCullough hear you say that. He'll regale you with the
DW> Wonders of Windmills.
That's okay. I'm all for using energy more efficiently and all that, but
I'm not a Luddite.
DW> Seriously, the government has its head up its ass where fusion
DW> research is concerned. They throw gobs of money at designs that
DW> simply do not work (they produce a sustained fusion reaction, but it
DW> takes more energy to contain the plasma than the reaction produces),
DW> while almost totally ignoring other designs that do show some promise.
DW> The Russian Tokamak is a good example. It uses a transformer core to
DW> "bend" the field lines to help contain the reaction, but the core gets
DW> saturated rather quickly and the whole thing has to shut down.
DW> In the stellarator, the same "bending" is accomplished by wrapping
DW> conductors around the surface of the donut that contains the plasma.
DW> These conductors do not get saturated, so the reaction is sustainable.
DW> When the feds built a stellarator, though, they couldn't decide
DW> whether it would be better to have 4 or 6 wires. They decided to build
DW> a hybrid monster that had 4 conductors around one side and six around
DW> the other side. What happened, you ask? The plasma shot out the
DW> junction between the two sides. Bureaucracies can fuck *anything* up.
Oy vey. Where is Thomas Edison when we need him? Scientific discovery by
committee. No WONDER we haven't gotten very far in forty-five years.
... Press any key to continue or any other key to give up.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: FUNDAMENTALIST ARE IN
|Date: 24 Jan 96 21:15:00
EID:09af 2038a9e0
JP> The NT Christ doesn't teach that His people are ruled by a man in
JP> Rome.
But he instructed Peter, specifically, to "feed my lambs", to take care
of
Jesus' followers. And whose ring does the Pope have? No, I don't agree on
the primacy of the Pope, either. Just as I do not believe in the
DEMONIZATION of the Pope.
JP> If you believe the papacy is genuine,
JP> If you believe the papacy is really all it claims to be,
JP> then you should be a Roman Catholic
JP> and you should confess being a Roman Catholic.
But I do not admit to any of those "beliefs". Indeed it is CONTRARY to my
beliefs. But that doesn't mean I have to hate the guy or his followers.
The Dalai Lama of Tibetian buddhism, is an interesting, erudite man (his
FREEDOM IN EXILE is fascinating) and I can admire him without admitting
any spiritual superiority of his. Same with the Pope.
JP> And yes, the label "Christian" as it is commonly used,
JP> is commonly erroneously used to describe a lot of "apostates."
But Jesus will judge that. Obvious errors you must address, like a person
who uses the Bible to justify hate; other than that...
JP> That is, people who claim to believe in the NT Christ,
JP> yet demonstrate that they are really just man-pleasers
JP> who couldn't care less what the NT Christ teaches.
But Jesus ate with tax collectors, publicans, and sinners. He did not come
to help the spiritually healthy, but the spiritually sick.
JP> As demonstrated by "Christians" who evidently see no problem
JP> with a man in Rome being claimed [and taken seriously by millions
JP> for centuries] to have "FULL, SUPREME, and UNIVERSAL power
JP> over the whole Church."
I can disbelieve that claim yet still respect the individual. Or
DISRESPECT them, as the case may be, as you may remember from my posts
about the pope during World War II.
JP> A papacy supporter is a lie against Christ supporter.
Between 300 to 1500, papacy supporters were all you had, except for the
Greek Orthodox.
... "Nemo exspectat Inquisitionem Hispanicam!" --Montius Pythonius
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: HEAVENLY DAZED
|Date: 24 Jan 96 21:19:00
EID:ecef 2038aa60
AS> (Gentle smile.) I am.
AS> You are like a mouse on a luxury liner,
AS> in the middle of the pacific, denying there is a boatbuilder.
AS> Thinking that living on such an artificial structure
AS> is "natural" because it's the only thing you know.
JP> Good analogy. WBW, John
Thanks.
... I used to believe in reincarnation, but that was in another life.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: INTO.
|Date: 25 Jan 96 04:42:00
EID:52a1 20392540
AS> And the weirdest thing of all is how many predictions there
AS> have been about the end of the world and the antichrist.
JP> Proving nothing about my specific prediction.
True. But if a hundred predictions have been proven to fall through, you
can't blame us about being a little skeptical of the hundred-and-first.
JP> Most have been "antichrist." Just not the final "beast."
Possibly.
AS> And the more you predict it...Scripture says
AS> it will come in a time "unlooked for".
AS> The more you predict it, the more sure you make
AS> it that it will NOT happen when you think.
JP> A certain timing of the "rapture" has been proclaimed
JP> on "christian" TV for a couple of decades.
JP> That timing is wrong. Do you know what I am talking about ?
Hal Lindsey's prophecies, that sort of thing?
AS> The important thing is to live every day as if it might
AS> be the last in Time, and the first in Eternity.
JP> The important thing is to heed Christ.
Luke 17:22. "Then He said to His disciples, 'The time is coming when you
will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see
it. Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running
off after them. For the Son of Man in His day will be like the lightning,
which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other." Luke 12:40,
"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at a time when
you DO NOT EXPECT HIM." Matt 24:36."No one knows about that day or hour,
NOT EVEN THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN, NOT EVEN THE SON, but only the Father." I'm
not going to claim knowledge that Jesus HIMSELF admitted He didn't have
here on Earth.
I AM heeding Christ, John.
... "Thence we came forth to see the stars again." -- Dante
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: INTO.
|Date: 25 Jan 96 04:51:00
EID:973e 20392660
AS>> out of our gourds. You assert that JFK will come back as the
AS>> Antichrist. You do realize that it makes you sound nuttier than a
AS>> jar of Planter's, don't you?
JP> Al, it's all wierd to heathens. WBW, John
DW> Welcome to the club. Pretty soon Jim-bob Billy-Ray Staal is gonna
DW> start accusing you of sucking up.
The depressing thing is, since Fido seems to be eating the posts that are
sent in Jim Staal's direction, he probably never saw those posts I sent
defending Lynda. But yeah, that's a strong possibility.
... Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LUMP
|Sub: RE: JEEZOIDS
|Date: 25 Jan 96 04:53:00
EID:b231 203926a0
Lu> .......... .......... ......... .......... ....
Lu> ... .......... .......... ......... .......... .....
Lu> ... > ... > .. .. > ... > .. .. > ... ..
Lu> ... .......... .......... ... .......... ...
Lu> .. ... .......... .......... ... .......... ...
Lu> .. ... >> ... .. .. > ... > .. .. >
Lu> ... .. ... .......... .. .. ... .. ..
Lu> ... ..... .......... .. .. ... .. ..
Lu> ... ....
Lu> IS GEORGE RUDZINSKI!
Don't let Asmodeus know.
... The Modem Devil Made Me Do it! Really!!!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ANDREW MASTEN
|Sub: JESUS SAID "EAT ME!"
|Date: 25 Jan 96 04:57:00
EID:8e34 20392720
LB> It won't work, J.J. Until they've been consecrated, all you have is
a
LB> large quantity of tasteless wafers, and overpriced ones at that, no
LB> doubt. Stick with Townhouse crackers. :)
AM> Your just a sick man. Why not have a nice hot cup of
AM> pre-biotic soup?
Man?????
Lynda's a lady.
... Last time you knew all the answers, you were wrong...
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: JESUS SAID "EAT ME!"
|Date: 25 Jan 96 05:01:00
EID:46c2 20392820
LB> WEll, you could try that -- but if you're out to shock anyone who
LB> might worry about it, they won't consider 'em valid. Like I said, J.J.
LB> -- this one won't work. Darned near every altar boy has at one time
or
LB> another snacked on a few wafers. (G)
Yeah, JJ hit a dead nerve on his one. Anyone who considers a priest really
able to consecrate them will know that JJ can't consecrate 'em. For that
matter, my brother's drinking problem started when, as an alter boy, they
had to finish off the rest of the consecrated wine because not a drop can
be wasted after it's consecrated. (In my current church, they use matzoh
crackers and grape juice. Not the same, but doesn't lead to any drinking
problems, either.)
... Everyone is entitled to my opinion.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: LEAF ME ALONE.
|Date: 25 Jan 96 05:06:00
EID:26d3 203928c0
DC> weren't doing their job. Seems like the students got really upset
DC> as they all decided to leave from their senseis..
ML> To make matters worse, they invaded a library and took pages
ML> from every book by Maurice (a well know author of children's
ML> works). Yep...they took leaves from the Sendak.
DC> Then there were the astronomers that decided they not only
DC> couldn't get the math right, but it was getting too late...
DC> They look leave from their ascendances.
And then there were the literature profs who decided that grammer was too
conventional, and wrote freeform prose, a la James Joyce, without periods,
exclamation points, or conventional sentence structure.
They took leave of their syntax.
... Dr. Jack took his own appendix out. His nurse said "Suture self."
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: PAGANI/WICCA RACISTS?
|Date: 25 Jan 96 06:35:00
EID:f04e 20393460
KW> Well..., I don't think that even the mormons can beat us in the
KW> category of high camp ridiculous arguments. You haven't lived
KW> until you've been part of group negotiating out a joint ritual, and
had
KW> one of the priests draw himself up and sneer 'wand wielder'. Or found
KW> yourself totally seriously debating brown vs green vs black for the
KW> north. Or wether black is allowable\acceptable for robes ('they'll
KW> think that we are satanists!' 'So what???') Or if Lorna Doones and
KW> Hi-C are acceptable for the Cakes and Wine. It's odd, but witch wars
KW> can erupt over the silliest things (*sniff!* She uses a drum with a
KW> PLASTIC head!!!).
That's what you GET for having all priests and no laity....
... Chocolate cures all.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: STEVE ROSE
|Sub: PERCEPTION OF THE FUNDY
|Date: 25 Jan 96 06:42:00
EID:c9eb 20393540
AS> Sometimes pomposity should be punctured. Sometimes acting like a
AS> juvenile should be jarred, too.
SR> But nothing beats pushing an obnoxious fundy down a flight of stairs
SR> and screaming it was his gawd that made him fall. Sounds great in an
SR> empty stairwell...where the echos of his screams are long and loud.
SR> :)
(Gentle smile.) And if they're in a wheelchair, it will make it even
BETTER, right?
You can certainly try it around ME. I would invite you to. You would
ONLY do it once, I guarentee it.
But of course you're all talk and no action. If you pushed someone down
a flight of stairs, no one would blame God, they'd blame YOU, and you
would be arrested for maliscious assault.
Grow up. That sort of thing is about as "adult" as Asmodeus thinking it
is okay to steal from people he hates.
... I am the inferior of any man whose rights I trample under foot.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: RE: SATANIST
|Date: 25 Jan 96 07:00:00
EID:7faa 20393800
As>> I practise the sins in ways that harm no one who does not
As>> deserve it. So if someone has won my anger, and I rip him
As>> off, this is a good thing, for I get some cool shit and
As>> because of his/her loss s/he become hurt just a little.
AS> Congratulations. You have even sunk LOWER in my estimation.
AS> Hard to do.
JH> And that without anyone even accusing him. He just comes out
JH> of the complete blue and brags about being a thief in an
JH> international echo.
Hmmm. I'm trying to think. Aren't you into the second curse phase now? (Of
course, Fidonet seems to be messing up messages. But they seem to be
hitting you more than me. Maybe it's a diversionary tactic? Maybe he's
REALLY concentrating on me...)
JH> That puts him even lower than Don Ward.
JH> VERY VERY HARD to do.
I'd rate him a little ahead of Lammon and Tomkat (remember them?) simply
because he mainly seems callow and self-centered, rather than hate-filled.
Grigor-Scott seems way ahead of him in hate, but much more intelligent.
So he still hasn't reached rock bottom.
Yet.
JH> But, on the bright side of all this: as long as Asomdeus sticks
JH> around no one can accuse me of only harassing Christians.
That's for sure! And I get to join in the general razzing for a change,
since I have little use for the Satanic Bible (which doesn't mean it
wouldn't be interesting to talk to a GENUINE Satanist--i.e., one who
worships Satan as an actual entity---rather than a shallow little hedonist
who calls himself a Satanist.) and those who follow same.
In fact, there has been more general invective against Asmodeus than
most fundies here. When Hector and I agree on a person....that SAYS
something!
... There is nothing more horrifying than stupidity in action.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 25 Jan 96 07:06:00
EID:523d 203938c0
HP> And women love a hero. Often literally enough to lead to
HP> reproduction. Anyone familiar with the way natural selection works
HP> (which would seem to let Al off the hook) should be able to figure out
HP> an obvious connection. :-)
AS> You think all women are carbon copies of Lois Lane? A lot of women
AS> feel that heroism is great (as do men) but yet you don't see hordes
of
AS> groupies around a police station or firehouse. Nor do I notice that
AS> policemen or firemen have substantially lower divorce rates than other
AS> men...quite the opposite, in fact. (Ditto for firewomen and
AS> policewomen.)
LB> As do EOD -- a horrifying 80% divorce rate, in fact. Heroism is a
LB> very nice attracter, but it can make the long haul a bit difficult --
LB> most women like to feel reasonably secure that their lifemate won't
LB> wind up in a body bag in the near future.
Right. Notice the stories where women love a dashing hero who consistently
risks his life is usually written by MEN. Dorothy L. Sayers, in her Lord
Peter Wimsey series, had him meet the love of his life (a detective story
writer modeled on Sayers) when she was being tried for murder, had to have
Wimsey save her by finding the real murderer. And then she spent FOUR
NOVELS trying to get the love affair past that initial awkwardness,
because she knew that a true love affair cannot begin with a humiliating
feeling of gratitude. He makes the point over and over, as he consistently
proposes to her, that if they had met any other way, without this crushing
burden of feeling "grateful" that she resented, they would have got along
famously long ago! (He did finally marry her, of course...and during the
honeymoon they fond a corpse. Such are the reality of mystery
stories...)
... Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: STEVE QUARRELLA
|Sub: STAAL SHOWS HIS COLORS
|Date: 25 Jan 96 07:09:00
EID:39fb 20393920
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Jim Staal <=-
SQ> On 8 Jan 96 11:18am, Jim Staal wrote to Fredric Rice:
JS> May I suggest 'Blue Wave' for your offline reader? You will no longer
JS> have that problem as it does it for you.
SQ> Bite me! I'm already working on him with Silver Xpress, but
SQ> Fred's not an OLR type of guy.
HUH???? He answers these ON-LINE? Or am I misunderstanding you?
... Wonderful chap, The Doctor. All of them. - Brig. L. Stewart
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ZAYD ALLEBBAN
|Sub: THE ULTIMATE SHIT LIST -
|Date: 25 Jan 96 07:14:00
EID:9b04 203939c0
ZA> David, you're real funny. Since you obviously don't believe in God
ZA> while I do, you stay with your beliefs and I'll stay with mine. I
ZA> haven't mocked your beliefs, so you better not mock mine. I won't
ZA> stand for this blasphemy and if you don't want to carry on a civilized
ZA> discussion, I don't want to hear from you again.
A little clue; and I am a Christian believer, not an Islamic one. In this
echo ALL gods are mocked. If you can't stand the blasphemy, this echo is
NOT for you. It's sort of a giant religious food fight. I like it simply
because everybody is fairly frank, but it's not for the easily offended.
... Forgive many things in others; nothing in yourself.-Ausonius
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