God Damned Fundies!
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 04 Feb 96 12:25:35
EID:b029 20446320
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619d8366
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 31124690
PS> In Chicago, I've heard that they've a problem with people
PS> stealing aluminum light poles to sell to recycling centers.
PS> It's a damn shame that so many of 'em get electrocuted.
Isn't it though? Who WILL all those crack dealers sell their products to?
Some of them may even have to go out of buisness. that would be too bad.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: HS WEB PAGE
|Date: 04 Feb 96 12:27:00
EID:ee61 20446360
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619d859a
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 31124692
PS> I had a really nasty one last night, debatably the worst one I've
PS> ever experienced.
I assume that you've had a CAT scan for this?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Mr. Miller...problem?
|Date: 04 Feb 96 12:44:22
EID:b810 20446580
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619daf6a
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3112f09c
MG>> to have her kid watch. In my eyes, this is a crime no less
MG>> than the monster that murdered that kid about 30 miles from
MG>> here in Arlington. Both would be classified as child
MG>> molesters.
PS> And both should be drawn and quartered, European style.
And now, Jimbo had taken a powder. Does that mean that we won?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Circular reasoning
|Date: 04 Feb 96 13:05:29
EID:f0e5 204468a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619de073
REPLY: 1:123/67 31133845
SS> Maybe by now you have read some of the drivel in THUMP_IT? Rich,
SS> ain't it?
Trent doesn't remember his "evidence for god" that he had in a shoebox in
his other office. Isn't that convenient?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Ark kinda stuff
|Date: 04 Feb 96 13:11:59
EID:a9e5 20446960
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619df0fd
CM>> Back then, humans lived well over 100 years.
MG>> Non biblical evidence for this wild and baseless claim.
MG>> Surely, are you THIS stupid?
NS> He probably is. And don't call him Shirley...};)
It's hard to tell the christians from the trolls without a scorecard. If
he is christian, he's at least this stupid. If he's a troll, he's even
more stupid.
But maybe I should call him Johnson.....
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Brother Jimmy
|Date: 04 Feb 96 13:20:02
EID:ded2 20446a80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619e0289
REPLY: 1:123/67 3113adde
JS>> Jim Staal Ministries
JS>> P.O. Box 171
JS>> Grandville, MI 49468-0171
SS> How much does it cost to freight Star Goat droppings to Michigan?
I wonder how long anchovies on a super large will stay fresh in the PO box.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 04 Feb 96 13:21:31
EID:b6d3 20446aa0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619e06c0
REPLY: 3:711/933 3111e221
AG> Your local Full Gospel Business Men's group will be able to give
AG> you access to their back issues of `Full Gospel Men's Voice'
AG> Magazines, many of which spoke of the miracles their
AG> meetings witnessed God do through the ministry of Brother
AG> Branham around the world, including raising the dead.
I would be interested in this and can likely look it up on line. Can you
give the EXACT reference for the issue where the dead were raised. I'm
sure that we can take it apart, piece by piece once we have the real thing
in front of us.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 04 Feb 96 13:23:47
EID:b6d3 20446ae0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619e0bed
REPLY: 3:711/933 3113a15f
AG> In other words the whole story of the 6,000,000 dead Jews is
AG> pure fiction.
Does this excuse the Nazis?
It sure was nice of them to only kill ten thousand jews rather than six
million.
Moron.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: EVOLUTION
|Date: 04 Feb 96 13:27:17
EID:7047 20446b60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 619e1961
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org c057d17e
KS> Don't forget Richie is typing this as verbatim as his ability
KS> allows from an ICR tract, and he hasn't the foggiest idea
KS> what the science does, says or means...
Er.....we picked up on that very early in Morrison's career here. First
he accuses me of not understanding a text file that I posted when I did,
and then he proceeds to type one in of questionable authority that he has
no hope of understanding. when I called him on it, he made some escuse
and then took a powder.
MG>>You have presented nothing of value here. You basically
MG>>copied some stuff down without understanding it, simply
MG>>becasue it reflected your viewpoint. I
KS> Oops, I see you already noticed......
Richie looks like history on HS...having joined the ranks of the Stringfellow,
the Staal, and the Wolff, all cowards thta made themselves look foolish
here and had to run away.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: toodles...
|Date: 04 Feb 96 07:58:38
EID:a490 20443f40
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 46e36819
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31133741
On (03 Feb 96) Steve Quarrella wrote to All...
SQ> Veneris dies February 02 1996, Dixit Jim Staal ad All:
JS> After much consideration, I have decided that it is time to leave the
JS> echo. Actually, looking back, my job was finished long ago and I didn't
JS> realize it. To those who have supported me in what I sought to do I
want
SQ> OK, folks, let's start taking bets as to how long this lasts.
Which persona are you taking bets on? And how do we know when
all of them are gone?
... Hex Dump -- Where witches throw away old curses
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 04 Feb 96 08:15:56
EID:691c 204441e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 01e1de76
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3114300f
On (02 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Karen Davis...
AM> Those witnesses are dead. Many paid with there lives and would
not
AM> recant
AM> no matter what form of torture awaited them. Do you think Nero
AM> throwing
AM> christians to lions in the colliseum is just myth?
Affidavits, please.
... Why do parking spaces vanish when you make a u turn?
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 04 Feb 96 08:16:28
EID:691c 20444200
MSGID: 1:207/212 bfcf4291
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31143011
On (03 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Karen Davis...
AM> I'm not going to sugar coat it. Thats Gods plan for a marriage. The
AM> worlds
AM> plan has led to a staggering divorce rate.
Funny... most divorces happen in Christian marriages. My husband and I
are very happily married, thanks. NO thanks to "Saint Paul."
AM> Because God has ordained it. Your concern isn't with man, but with
God.
Yes, thus I reject YOUR concept of "him" utterly because of that. Either
he doesn't exist or he isn't worth my time. Either way, I'm happy. And
yes, I will happily go to hell rather than worship that god.
AM> First, your referring to Old Testament Law. If a man and a women are
AM> caught
AM> in adultry both were to be executed. If it was in a field and the womens
AM> cries
AM> could not be heard, only the man was to be executed. If the women was
not
AM> betrothed, then the man would have to pay her father 50 sheckels and
AM> marry the
AM> woman. That may seem harsh, but for a woman to go unmarried in those
days
AM> was a calamity. There were no social welfare programs.
Why are the woman's cries important?
And I'd rather die than marry a rapist, thanks. That's the same kind of
thinking that forces women to carry rapists' babies to term.
And why does a father deserve a dime? He doesn't get any money when his
son marries...
AM> If your reffering to the admonishment in Corinthians, its because women
AM> were
AM> disrupting the church by asking there husbands questions in the middle
of
AM> service.
Funny... in any church service I have ever attended the only disruptions
were from the occasional child crying [and being carried out quietly by
the mother if that was necessary] or coughing. Women have no need to ask
questions of men.
AM> No, your wrong there, study other cultures that reject the
AM> Christian-Judeo
AM> ethic and see how well the women are treated. Asain and Arab cultures
AM> treat
AM> women as dogs.
Asian cultures do a better job than Christian. It is not religious in
that case.
And Islam is worse, I admit it. But only because NON Islamic teachings
pervade the fundamentalists. Just like the Christian fundies.
... "Sometimes, I guess there just aren't enough rocks."
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 04 Feb 96 08:23:04
EID:58b9 204442e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 5a1da177
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31143013
On (03 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Karen Davis...
AM> True, but its still considered science.
Yes, hypotheses, properly and independently validated, are considered
science. This is evolutionary science.
AM> Yes there is. You just want to be a evolungelical fundamentalist.
There is no scientific evidence. People try to lie their way out, but
they can't provide one shred of evidence for a god.
KD> Because they breathe, eat, and excrete like CHILDREN.
AM> After nine weeks a unborn infant has a nervous system. Pumps its own
AM> blood.
AM> After 3 months it can kick, move around sleeps takes in nourishment.
AM> There are thousands of babies that have survived after only 5 months
AM> in the womb. Unless a doctor intrudes with an instrument that snips
off
AM> the tiny legs and arms, then crushes the skull. Then re-assembles
the
AM> "fetus" to see all the parts are there. In the business they call
those
AM> zipper babies.
Thousands? No.
Your lies are ignored.
... Why is there a Permanent Press setting on my iron?
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Why?
|Date: 04 Feb 96 11:20:41
EID:94aa 20445a80
MSGID: 1:207/212 38e00021
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 11268ef2
On (02 Feb 96) Ryan Shaw wrote to George Pope...
RS> Also, would you rather have a heterosexual couple that shoots smack
adopt
RS> a child rather than a hard working homosexual couple?
Worse - I've got a case on record of a MURDERER getting custody of an 11
year old girl because her mother was living in a lesbian relationship.
... SIGN AT NUDIST COLONY - "Clothed for the winter months"
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: More about Texas AFA
|Date: 04 Feb 96 16:24:11
EID:35c4 20448300
MSGID: 1:207/212 4fda8d2b
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 5993fdf1
On (03 Feb 96) Karl Schneider wrote to Robert Jackson...
KS> I stopped in thinking to grab a quick burger and was informed that
KS> the '99 cent' job is a 'kiddie burger' containing ONE OUNCE of
KS> meat, a small bun and nothing else.
Carl's Junior does the same thing.
... Kurt Gump....Smells Like a Box of Chocolates
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: -------
|Date: 04 Feb 96 16:36:53
EID:3703 20448480
MSGID: 1:207/212 7f8c2ac4
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6182e5d8
On (02 Feb 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Richard Morrison...
RM> Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO
RM> (1:280/26) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JH> We got a lot of ships in Missouri?
While I hate to defend a fundy, I recall my uncle was stationed in MO
when in the Navy, as well. Not sure what they have there.
... I will not buy this Tagline, it is scratched
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: FATHER KNOWS BEST
|Date: 04 Feb 96 19:07:48
EID:11e5 204498e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 6503d9ef
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 311379f4
On (02 Feb 96) Sue Armstrong wrote to AL SCHROEDER...
SA> Maybe we can all be One True somethings or another. I
SA> suppose I can be the echo One True Commie.
Dibs on One True Hobbit.
... A library is an arsenal of liberty.
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: ABORTION ENSLAVES WOM
|Date: 03 Feb 96 20:59:00
EID:2e35 2043a760
SA> Maybe she's thinking instead of "Good Omens", in which Crowley
SA> (aka Crawley) was originally the snake in the garden, totally
SA> bemused at the outcome and discussing it with whatsisname, the
SA> angel. I liked Crowley - he wasn't such a bad bloke, after all.
SA> The angel was a bit of a drip, though.
I liked the hellhound who played catch with the cute adorable little kid
who happened to be the Antichrist, myself. And the four horsemen on
motercycles being challenged by other hell's angels, and asked what
chapter they were with, and they said, "Revelations 20" or whatever it
was.
SA> Naah. Maria isn't bright enough to understand Pratchett.
Please. It was GAIMAN'S book. Pratchett didn't contribute much but his
name. (Ducking and running.)
ANYWAY, the co-writer of GOOD OMENS, Neil Gaiman, is the guy who wrote
those excellent SANDMAN comics that I recommended to you.
... The secret to Life and Immortality is %á^^^ôº^@#+++## NO CARRIER
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: GOD'S WORD...
|Date: 04 Feb 96 10:57:00
EID:d629 20445720
DW> Would you be willing to bet on whether or not Jimbo leaps to Tricky
DW> Dick's defense?
JS> BTW, big boy, back in '73 I wore a black arm band on the day after my
JS> main man resigned. Greatest statesman and president that ever lived:
JS> Richard Milhouse Nixon!
(open mouth, close mouth, open mouth.) Um. I think in the seventies we
were on opposite sides of the political fence, Jim. Of course, you are
entitled to your opinion.
... The race is over. The rats won.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: GRAMM
|Date: 04 Feb 96 11:00:00
EID:020c 20445800
SA> Nope. I'm serious. I used to support Dole, but he's become a
SA> bit too moderate since deciding to run for the presidency again.
SA> He's compromising his ideals in exchange for votes
SA> (like most politicians). Gramm spells out his precise intentions.
MH> I heard Gramm speak a few weeks ago when the Southern Republican
MH> Leadership Conference was held here. I was impressed.
MH> He told a great story, although he probably tells it in every speech
MH> he makes, so you've probably already heard it. In one of his
MH> congressional campaigns, his opponent opened a debate with a scathing
MH> speech about all of the welfare programs Gramm had cut or advocated
MH> cutting. He sat down, satisfied the he had just demolished his
MH> opponent.
MH> Gramm took the podium and began: "Everything he just said ... is
MH> absolutely true. In fact, if welfare is your highest aspiration, he's
MH> your man."
It's nice to know that you and Styx can agree on something. (Thus proving
the adage that politics makes strange bedfellows )
... Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth.--Thoreau.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: HEAVENLY DAZED
|Date: 04 Feb 96 11:26:00
EID:2ee6 20445b40
AS> Excellent. Where shall we begin? Ahhhh, let's try this. The
AS> neutron outweighs the proton by a mere tenth of a percent.
AS> They are both made up of quarks. There seems no obvious
AS> reason why it should be the neutron that outweighs it by
MG> YAWN......
MG> We've been through this so many times before. The fact that the
MG> universe formed and supports life in no way indicates design. You
MG> must show the designer.
We have been through this before but never resolved it.
No, I don't.
We knew about a ninth planet by observing the gravitational effects on the
others. (As it turns out, small Pluto is not big enough to produce the
effects. There is probably a larger tenth planet out there.) We can deduce
atoms from Brownian motion. Neither were initially seen, but were observed
by the effects.
Again a Designer is one of five possible explanations for constant after
constant falling only in the range that permits intelligent life to exist.
I do not deny the others...although I can point out where some (like
an esemble of existences) might be less satisfying under Occam's razor
than a Designer. (Note: I will be perfectly willing to entertain a sixth
explanation if one is offered; but I cannot proceed on mere supposition
that such MAY someday develop.) The LOGICAL alternatives are (1) chance,
(2) high probability (chaotic cosmological) (3) mathematical or logical
necessity (these laws are the only self-consistent set of laws possible),
(4) an ensemble of universes or existences or (5) a Designer.
That says nothing about the CHARACTER of the Designer. It would be
Stargoat for all I could show from the anthropic principle evidence. All
that is shown is a possible Designer (one of five possibilities) who
cares about developing intelligent life.
And considering that a sizable fraction of humanity over the years have
claimed to be in touch with just such a Being; that no society has lasted
long without developing some sort of religious or transcendent belief. I
think it at least possible that there might be a connection between ONE
and the OTHER.
It is NOT a matter of life adapting to the conditions of the universe.
If the laws had been different, there would be no intelligent life, and
in most of the changes, no life at all.
... Reality is not a constant. Shut up and finish your dinosaur.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: RE: NO I'M NOT DEAD
|Date: 04 Feb 96 12:05:00
EID:2b64 204460a0
DC> Still haven't got a message her addressed from you, though I
DC> did see the feedback.
DC> (The Helpful Atheist!)
DC> AKA, God Dan...
Then you missed my 80-post DEFINITIVE PROOF OF GOD????? The one that also
revealed that without a doubt that Jesus existed, died, and was
resurrected? But...but...my hard drive crashed and I don't think I can
type it all again....
(Somebody who CAN reach Dan please forward this to him. He'll get a
chuckle out of this, I think.)
... CIA Motto: In God we trust, all others we polygraph.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: POSITION
|Date: 04 Feb 96 12:08:00
EID:b4dc 20446100
MH> This just reminded me of a joke ...
MH> Seems several promient members of a Jewish congregation became
MH> involved with a local Quaker assembly. For some time, they
MH> participated in both groups.
MH> One day, someone asked the rabbi if he was aware this was going on.
MH> "Of course," he said. "I have nothing against it. Some of my best Jews
MH> are Friends." :)
LOL!!!!
... Don't mind me; I'm the designated drunk.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: WEATHER PATTERNS
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:13:00
EID:0404 204491a0
SA> For that matter, why do members of the animal kingdom need to eat
SA> at all? Surely an omnipotent god could have made us all
SA> autotrophic, so that the question of starvation need never come up
SA> in the first place. Why should we depend on having plants and/or
SA> other animals available for fuel for our bodies? Surely, too, a
SA> god could figure out how to maintain a planet of life without need
SA> for predation or disease, and the unpleasantness that goes along
SA> with that.
From SCIENCE FICTION TODAY AND TOMMORROW, edited by Reginald Bretnor. An
article called "On the Creation of Imaginary Beings" by Hal Clement,
author of MISSION OF GRAVITY among others.
"A rather similar factor operates against having a manlike creature get
all his energy, plant style. This was convered years ago by V.A. Eulach
("Those Impossible Autropic Men", ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION, October
1956), who pointed out that a man who tries to live like a tree will end
up looking much like one. He will have to increase his
sunlight-intercepting area without greatly increasing his mass (in other
words, grow leaves), cut down his energy supply to what leaves can supply
from sunlight's one-and-a-half-horse-power-per-square-yard (become
sessile), and provide himself with mineral nutrients directly from the
soil, since he can't catch food any more (grow roots!).
"Of course, we can get around some of this by hypethisizing a hotter,
closer sun, with all the attendant complications of higher planet
temperature." I might add something here. A HOTTER sun, as in a B or A
spectral type sun, does not last long enough in the Main Sequence
(millions of years instead of billions) to allow evolution to take place
long enough for intelligence to form. (Of course one COULD argue that
higher temperature and higher radiation would allow for faster or more
violatile chemical reactions,and more energy for life to play with
speeding up evolution, but I think that there must be a reasonable limit.)
I would limit it to F-type suns at the hottest, or closer planets to a G
type star. And I have trouble seeing an F type star giving THAT much
greater energy to allow them to move more than a snail's pace. And being
closer and literally hotter plays all sorts of fun games with possible
biochemistries, although I can't totally rule them out...
That particular book, BTW, is one of my particular treasures. It has
Clement's article on the Creation of Imaginary Beings, a treasure trove
of
creative biology and Poul Anderson's article on the Building of
Imaginary Worlds, full of charts and graphs on building marginally
human-habitable world, and giving you a feel for changing a few parameters
to build a really ALIEN world, full of little details. If you ever see it,
GRAB it.
... I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat salad.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: ABORTION ENSLAVES WOM
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:15:00
EID:2e35 204491e0
SA> Yeah; my grandmother sometimes had trouble communicating exactly
SA> what she wanted after the stroke that took away her ability to
SA> speak - it once took me, at age 10, an hour to figure out it was
SA> bologna she wanted me to get from the store. But then, sometimes
SA> the dog would also want something, and get a look of
SA> disappointment/disgust when presented with something apparently
SA> different from what he had in mind. But being constrained by
SA> language is OUR problem, really, not theirs. language might be a
SA> very useful tool, but it can also be quite limiting - every
SA> good thing has its drawbacks, after all, just as every dark cloud
SA> is said to have its silver lining.
Well...maybe. But the difference is quite startling. And it is a lack. It
is at the heart of Mortimer Adler's THE DIFFERENCE OF MAN AND THE
DIFFERENCE IT MAKES. It certainly would make my life a little easier if
Jamie could come up and say, "Hey, Dad, get down the goldfish crackers"
instead of pointing to where we store the chips and snacks and me having
to drag down one after another until he finally taps on the one he
wants...
... With friends like these, who needs hallucinations?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:17:00
EID:9981 20449220
MH> Just curious ...
MH> Why is Jim being dumped on so heavily for using pseudonyms? Mark
MH> "Hector Plasmic" Kime hides beind one, and so does "Capt. Fuck." And
MH> for all we know, some of the names used that sound authentic may be
MH> false. (e.g. "Dr. James Robertson.")
MH> Why does only Jim get criticized for it?
I think it's because the others are consistent in it. Hector is always
Hector (I had no idea it was a pseudonym till now). Capt. F WAS criticized
for such, once they realized who James Robertson was. I, being hopelessly
naive, thought Lou and Jim were two seperate people. So did many. (I think
Lou was listed seperately on Sue Armstrong's list, for instance.) It seems
merely a way to get past being twitted, little else.
However, I am sorry to see him go; his strategy always puzzled me, but I
never doubted his Christianity or a basically good heart. (No, not even
with Shelby. Some people have a genuis for saying the wrong thing.) I
didn't want to see a war start between the conservative Christians and the
liberal ones, but I didn't want the conservative ones to leave.
No truth in the rumor that it leaves the REST of us as targets...
No, I take that back. I'm feeling sad tonight, perplexed, wondering if
it was my post or email that drove him to leave, or just the general
abuse. I did think the insulting of Jim's WIFE was out of bounds---not
forbidden, but in extremely bad taste.
... I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:23:00
EID:f0c3 204492e0
AG> The First AND Second World Wars were engineered by the international
AG> bankers. Here is a little historic background for your study:
AG> From:- `Pawns In The Game' by William Guy Carr (Chapter 16)
DC> I read your little historical fantasy. Quite frankly, I was not
DC> suprised to see "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" mentioned
DC> prominently, but the idea of Hitler keeping the EXCESSES of the "Nazi
DC> War Lords"--curiously unnamed, don't you think? Who WERE these
DC> bloodthirsty fiends that heroic Hitler kept from doing their
DC> worst---is laughable at best. Your "history" is a painful continuance
DC> of the sort of anti-"international banker" mentality which IS a mask
DC> for the most rabid anti-Semitism. Your version of history, although
DC> full of half-truths, quite clever in its way, is totally CONTRADICTED
DC> by Tolland's two-volume HITLER or Schirer's RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD
DC> REICH. You are a sick, dangerous man, Anthony. It is the mindset
DC> that Hitler literally espoused, the lunatic worldview that led him to
DC> kill six million Jews. And yes he did, Anthony...many servicemen here
DC> in the states SAW the death camps, and one of the posters here has a
DC> father with a deathcamp tatoo. It sounds so plausible, and is so sick.
SA> I'd like to add that I had an uncle who was interned a mere mile
SA> from one of the Auschwitz camps - the main one, I think. He and
SA> his fellow Canadian POWs _knew_ what was going on in that
SA> Hell-on-Earth, and they could see half-starved Jews (and
SA> presumably others) trudging to and from their slave-labour duties
SA> every goddamned day before the liberation. Grigor-Scott is lucky
SA> my uncle is no longer alive, else he'd fly to Sydney and beat the
SA> little fuck to within an inch of his life (if he even spared him
SA> THAT.) And I'd give him directions on how to get to West Ryde
SA> from the airport, too.
That's the thing. If anyone had said the Holocaust didn't happen in 1950,
they would have been pitied or laughed at. Now the people who were there
are dying; and it is so horrendous, so beyond human belief, that it is
hard for humans to credit other humans with doing it.
SA> There's nothing more disgusting on the face of the Earth than a
SA> fucking Nazi.
I agree.
BTW, even though I'm sure Dan would agree witht he above statements that
your reader ascribed to DC> ---i.e., Dan Ceppa---but those are MU words,
not Dan's.
... Welcome to Life. Participate at your own risk.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KAREN DAVIS
|Sub: THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE A
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:32:00
EID:5ebb 20449400
KD> As a feminist, it is impossible for me to accept a male god and a male
KD> savior.
Too bad. If you ever come across the Christian writings of Dorothy L.
Sayers (the author of the Lord Peter Wimsey stories, and in the 30s, a
shining example of a woman's intellectual emancipation) you might see how
early feminism and Christianity can be elegantly and persuasively
combined. And if you expect a good Christian housewife who feels
subservient to the male, you will be pleasantly suprised. She has the wit
and insight equal to her fellow Inklings members, like C.S. Lewis, J.R.R.
Tolkien, and Charles Williams. (She wrote a great play about the building
of a Cathedral, and did a wonderful translation of Dante's DIVINE COMEDY.)
1 Cor 11:11, "Nevertheless, neither is the man without the woman, neither
the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man,
so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God."
Gal 3:28. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
And remember, after Jesus rose again, He did not first appear to Peter,
whom He entrusted His church; or to John, the disciple He loved best. He
first appeared...first showed the Miracle, the Joy from beyond the walls
of the world...to Mary Magdelene. Whom she called
"rabbi"...teacher...indicating that Jesus did not share the common Jewish
belief in not teaching women higher spiritual matters (which makes the
idea of Jesus being an Essene laughable.) but instead would instruct any
and all.
And early Christianity was considered a "woman's religion" by the
pagans, much as some regard Wicca now. And the fact that Christians did
not expose female children, as pagans often did, to die eventually
resulted into a more even male-female ratio, rather than the preponderance
of males, as mentioned by nontheist hsitorian Robin Lane Fox.
Suppose I was convinced of the truth of the Wiccan beliefs, but refused
to join it because it celebrates a Goddess and Cerrunnos serves a somewhat
subsidiary position, and that the vast majority of practitioners are
priestesses? What opinion would you have of ME?
We have brought it on ourselves. We have driven away minorities like
gays and a majority, like women, by our misapplication of God's word. So
it is not suprising that many would create their own religion.
Nevertheless, if God chose to manifest as a male in a society that was
very male-oriented, one does not need to doubt God's love for the female
population. Everything we say about God, being infinite, must be a
metaphor. Even when we say God is neither truly male or female, but a
spirit (as expressed in the Bible) we really don't know what we say...we
see "through a glass darkly" as Paul said.
... Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ALL
|Sub: RE: THE LIGHT
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:39:00
EID:5e21 204494e0
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Brad Jackson <=-
HP> I must confess this burden of guilt that's tearing me to pieces
HP> I was eating worms and spreading germs and various diseases
HP> I loped along the bayou like an old hound dog
HP> When the smell of frogs was in the wind
HP> They were soft and cold and dripping
HP> And I loved to feel them slipping
HP> Right out of their flacid froggy skins
HP> Yes, I was a teenage toadsucker before I discovered Jesus.
HP> Oh, Jesus!
HP> -- AB
BJ> Hello again Hector!
BJ> I had not realized that you had discovered Jesus and invited him
BJ> into your life. This job you had before sounds interesting, I have
BJ> never seen it posted at the unemployment office before. You must
BJ> have friends that got you into this job! Now that you have
BJ> discovered Jesus can I figure that you have a whole new group of
BJ> friends?
BJ> By the the way could you tell me how you came to know Jesus?
BJ> Brad Jackson
BJ> God Keep you Hector!
Troll alert.
... "Brillant, Watson. You are scintillating this morning."Sherlock Holmes
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:47:00
EID:0775 204495e0
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Brother Jimmy <=-
DW> Your wife is a dumbass, Jimbo.
Y'know, David, there ARE cheap shots, even in echomail. That's one of
them. I'm not asking you to, or telling you you have to, or any of that
juvenile nonsense. But Jim found someone who was willing to share his life
with him, to have children and grandchildren with. You almost had that,
as
I remember. Wasn't it you who lost your fiance to a drunk driver? Now
think if she had not had died, how you would feel if she was insulted by
HIM.
Think hard.
And then realize how lucky Jim is in that respect.
Again, I am not asking this, I am just telling you. I would really
respect you more if you apologized. And yes, I am talking about
apologizing to Jim.
... Type unto others as you would have them type unto you.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: TOODLES...
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:38ae 20449680
JS> To those I might have offended, I reget that. To those who perceived
JS> offense, it wasn't my intent. I pray that in that day of days, God
JS> will have mercy on our souls: the atheist/pagans for not heeding the
JS> message that was clearly stated with boldness and unshrinking honesty,
JS> and on me for the mistakes I have made here while striving to maintain
JS> the truth.
Well said. And one of the reasons I regret we never knew the REAL Jim
Staal, just the personas you chose to let us know. Because as everyone
here will notice, THIS message was much clearer and lucid than many we
have received.
It is our loss that you hid the real Jim for so long.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 04 Feb 96 18:54:00
EID:62c7 204496c0
JS> Hi, Al. Thanks for the post. Did you get my I-net message concerning
JS> this? Thanks to MISTER Worrell for forwarding. As I cannot change what
JS> I say, as you suggested, (how can I change the biblical word of truth
JS> and the inderstanding of it the Holy Spirit has given in my heart) I
am
JS> leaving the echo after three years. I stayed too long. Thanks.
Great. Guilt trip city.
Jim, when I said you can change what you say, I meant not trying to
deliberately taunt Judith by calling her "Judy", not pretending to be
multiple people (which I will GUARANTEE the Holy Spirit did not put in
your heart), stop accusing other Christians of not being one because they
disagree with you. I did NOT--and never have--asked you to sacrifice your
principles. And yes, Worrell is being a sophomoric JERK for insulting your
wife, and I was about to blast him for it. But if you leave, it is your
own choice, not mine. Quite frankly, I find it hard to equate your
obvious sincere belief in Christ with your equally obvious love of
duplicity. You have used so many pseudonyms that half of us are wondering
whether Lump is seperate or not and IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU OR HE SAYS,
since being shown to be a known--fabricator? In that matter in other
areas, anything Lump says will be seen as possibly you. Yes, you got some
extremely rough treatment here. I think your mistakes have been those of
misjudgement and quite frankly oafishness rather than deliberate malice,
even when you talked of Shelby's father-in-law --but this is a medium of
communication, and those who communicate awkwardly will be more harshly
treated than those who don't. I never doubted your heart was in the right
place, even in that exchange (I think you sincerely meant that the God
Shelby's father-in-law believed in welcome him into Heaven) but your
methods of doing so did and do puzzle me. The thing with Gwenny and her
ex-husband I didn't like, but you have offered what you consider an apology,
and I accept that.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I think Worrell's insulting of your wife was both
cowardly and uncalled for. And yes, I would probably leave under such
circumstances too. (Although I remember Rudzinski's insults concerning me
having two austistic kids and mastered it). Perhaps David should consider
that it is YOU who have a wife and children and grandchildren, not
himself. And perhaps you should reflect that is you who have someone who
will give a final flip about whether you live or die, not him.
ALL I was telling you to do is tell the truth. And the Bible verses I
quoted were all directed towards that end.
If you would rather leave than tell the truth, that is your decision;
not mine.
Nevertheless, I wish you well. May you find joy in the music you love,
in the lovely Wilbur, in your kids and grandkids. May you grow in the
grace and love of God, and I hope to do the same.
... Anyone can hate. it costs to love.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: legend
|Date: 03 Feb 96 22:43:00
EID:d903 2043b560
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Because the evidence is good that the written accounts of Jesus' life
MH> werein circulation not very long after the events they chronicled, and
MH> the disciples were a definite part of early church history. There
MH> really is no good reason to disbelieve them, unless you just take the
MH> illogical and indefensible position that everything in the Bible is
MH> considered false until proven true.
MH> A major clue is that the disciples are everywhere portrayed as
MH> fallible, ordinary human beings. Peter denies even knowing Jesus
MH> at one point, and doubts him a dozen times along the way. John and
MH> James bicker over who's superior. Thomas is skeptical. Myths tend to
MH> idealize the "good guys," but there's no sign of that here.
KW> Homer's heroes were fallible, too, Mike. So were the heroes of the
KW> Arthurian legends, so were the heroes of Charlemagne, and so forth.
KW> other concerning this carpenter's son and his clash with roman
KW> authority. We have this version that survived. There are a few
KW> variants of the basic story floating around, four of which are
KW> 'officially recorded' in the Bible. It basically comes down to the
KW> one simple fact that you believe in this particular 'myth' and I don't.
No, there's much more to it than that.
Scholars date the earliest letters of Paul almost unanimously dated
to the late 40s and early 50s. They are explicitly Christian in the
supernatural sense of the word. Since they were written to established
communities of believers, the belief obviously predated the letters by
a significant period of time.
At most, that gives 10-12 years for myth-makers to create an entire set
of supernatural happenings centered around a recently dead local
person, AND invent an entire cast of supporting characters, many of
whom were portrayed as still alive and present, and somehow make people
believe the myth.
Furthermore, scholars have dated the composition of the three synoptic
gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) within a range of a.d. 40 to a.d. 80
or so, with liberal scholars opting for later dates and conservative
scholars opting for earlier ones, in most cases. John's gospel is
variously dated anywhere from a.d. 60 to a.d. 100.
Even at the latest dates, though, a maximum of fifty years passes
between Jesus's death and the completion of all three synoptic gospels.
Because the gospels were first used by existing faith communities, the
material in them must be older than the final written versions.
The Book of Acts, meanwhile, purports to chronicle the development of
the early church, and because Luke (its author) often refers to "we,"
indicating he personally was involved in some of the events, Acts must
have been written within the lifetime of Peter. (Unless it's a complete
fiction, but few of even the most liberal scholars would take that
view.)
Since Luke wrote his gospel prior to Acts, we can conclude that Peter
and other close associates of Jesus were alive when Luke wrote his
gospel. And since Luke is generally thought to be the latest of the
three synoptics, obviously the close witnesses were also alive when
Matthew's and Mark's gospels were first circulating. These two gospels
first circulated among the very people who would be most likely to have
known Jesus -- the Jews in and around Jerusalem.
That means that there simply is no opportunity for significant legend
to creep into the story. In most legends, centuries pass between the
historical base and the development of the legend. While it's possible
that a saying attributed to Jesus might have been invented, or a story
of a healing might have been added, it can't be said that the
invention of a story of a resurrection or the invention of an entire
cast of characters is plausible. While the events seem distant in time
and place to us, to the first people who heard about it, it had
happened recently and nearby.
(In fact, the scholars who assign the later dates to the gospel
accounts usually do so at least partly because they assume there *is*
significant legend in them, and argue for a date that allows as much
time as possible for legend to develop. They base their conclusions on
their assumptions, not on any external evidence. And the largely
ignore the Pauline evidence.)
None of this proves the gospels are true, of course. It does, though,
give the honest critic a significant challenge. (And too few critics
are all that honest, sad to say.)
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: maria russell
|Date: 03 Feb 96 20:57:00
EID:37de 2043a720
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I don't read much of her material, so I'm really perplexed as to why
MH> she inspires such loathing in both you and Lynda. I can understand
MH> disagreeing with her, even thinking her ideas are dangerous, but you
MH> two seem to absolutely despise her -- and personally, not just her
MH> ideas.
KW> Her stated ideas concerning a woman's place do not go down easily with
KW> any woman who's had her trust and love betrayed by an abuser. She
KW> advocated that position in which a woman is totally subject to her
KW> husband, and that if this woman was a good submissive christian wife,
KW> the abuse would stop. To any woman who has survived an abuse
KW> situation, this is pure brine and vineger in open wounds. It
KW> is impossible to placate an abuser out of abuse. We who have been
KW> there know that from plain practical experience.
Since I asked my question, I have recieved several good answers. I
suppose I should have simply read her material for myself.
I would like you to know that her position -- at least, as you portray
it, is NOT what the Bible advocates. The one passage which those who
would dominate women use as justification actually says that men and
women in a marriage are BOTH supposed to be subject to one another.
(I'll quote it at the end of the post, for your reference.)
What happens is that abusive men start reading after the summary
sentence, and then stop reading halfway through the passage. Paul
writes first that both should submit to each other. Then he
elaborates, saying that a married woman -- and the passage applies only
to marriage, not any other relationship -- should submit to her
husband, but also that the husband should love his wife
self-sacrifically and with holiness. A man who truly loves his wife
with self-sacrifice and holiness is not going to exploit her
submissiveness by abusing her.
The picture Paul paints is mutual submission. In an ideal marriage,
each partner is focused on the other first, not the self. This fosters
a dual benefit -- each partner has their needs met, out of the other's
love, not out of selfishness. The man and woman are both learning
and growing in the art of giving to others -- to one another.
It becomes justification for domination and exploitation only when
perverted out of its context. If Maria really believes that Paul meant
for women to bow to every whim of men, and for men to have no
reciprocal obligation, she's been lied to and believed the lie. (And we
all know who the Father of Lies is, don't we? Satan can twist even
Scripture to serve his purposes.)
The passage is Ephesians 5:21-28
==BEGIN==
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is
the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of
which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so
also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave
himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing
with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a
radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy
and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives
as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
==END==
He who loves his wife does not make his wife a slave.
... A fool and his money are soon partying.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: bats/birds
|Date: 03 Feb 96 21:14:00
EID:728b 2043a9c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194384
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Brother Jimmy <=-
JS> (Lev 11:13 NIV) "'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat
JS> (Deu 14:18 NIV) the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.
JS> Ok, so what's the problem? Where does it say in the BIble that bats
JS> aren't birds? Perhaps they are winged rodents?
SA> Any scientific source material on bats will tell you that bats
SA> are not birds, they are mammals.
JS> So? What has that to do with the BIble being contradictory...just
JS> because it doesn't agree with man's ideas means nothing to me.
Actually, one need not be as dogmatic as BroJim to bat this bird out of
the ballpark.
The simple fact is, according to Strong's Hebrew/Greek Concordance, the
word translated "birds" in this passage does not explicitly mean "bird"
at all. It means things that fly.
... This score just in: Deep Space 9, Babylon 5.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 03 Feb 96 21:19:00
EID:6f42 2043aa60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194385
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
JS> Either God has taught
JS> eternal punishment in the Bible or He has not. It is not grey. Either
JS> Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit or He was not. There is no grey
JS> area on this. Either Christ rose from the grave and lives and reigns
JS> forever or He did not! There _is_ no grey area on this! No 'personal'
JS> judgement or opinion.
SA> Are you saying that there is no room for interpretation AT ALL in
SA> the bible? If there is ANY room for interpretation, Michael is IMO
SA> correct that the only individual that can make that kind of judgement
SA> is God.
Actually, what I said is that only God knows whether a given person
will enter heaven or not. Jim is right that the three specific things
he lists are either true or they're not. If Jesus rose bodily from the
grave and lives forever in heaven, then anyone who believes he rose
only metaphorically is wrong. Simple.
Now, what I would not say is that holding such a belief automatically
disqualifies one from heaven. That is not my call to make. But I would
certainly encourage such a person to be certain they are pursuing the
truth and not inventing a comfortable fiction.
JS> There is room for interpretation for certain areas of the Bible...and
JS> the Bible itself is to be used for that. The areas of question that
I
JS> have pointed out above, however, need no interpretation. There is no
JS> gray areas in the above. It is literal and _very_ important to
JS> Christianity.
Agreed.
... Hester Prynne got an A for adultery. I barely made a C-minus.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Apostate
|Date: 03 Feb 96 21:23:00
EID:78f0 2043aae0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194386
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Kevin D. Mckenzie <=-
KDM> This may come as a shock to you, Jim, but there isn't a wide network
KDM> of heathens out here. She may consider you her enemy, but that doesn't
KDM> mean every pagan/atheist does. What happened to turning the other
KDM> cheek and loving your neighbor, BTW?
Kevin, you misspelled "neighbor's BMW."
:)
... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: behind a monitor?
|Date: 03 Feb 96 21:37:00
EID:2b07 2043aca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194387
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Hogan to Jim Staal <=-
JS> I didn't suggest any such thing. I merely suggest that a person
JS> conduct themselves here as they would in person. Things would be a
JS> whole lot more constructive that way. I also pointed out that at least
JS> in my personal experience, people who discuss things face to face do
JS> not behave in the manner they do in an anonymous medium such as this.
JS> True, some do behave this way (usually when drunk) in person, but not
JS> the ratio as in this faceless medium. This leads me to believ one of
JS> two things:
JS>
JS> a. this place is populated by a large number of violent-pron or
JS> drunk individuals :), or
JS> b. it is something that is unwittingly promoted by fact it is a
JS> faceless medium .
MH> It is obviously the latter, and I'll explain to you why. We
MH> undoubtedly have timid and/or shy people here, contributing. In a
MH> real-time medium, where people are physically present, they might feel
MH> uncomfortable in sharing their opinion. This is a common principle,
MH> and it shouldn't come to you as a surprise. So, one would reason that
MH> it should also not come as a surprise that through this medium, there
MH> is no fear of that sort. It is, just as you said, a faceless medium.
MH> One says what they believe [and can do so, remaining true to their
MH> convictions and feelings], and not have to worry about it. It's a
MH> freedom; one of thought. It has nothing to do with cowardice or
MH> pusillanimity; generally speaking, it's simply more people feel
MH> comfortable in this medium, insofar as sharing their opinions go.
This is certainly true, but unfortunately it also makes it easy to
savagely villify someone who angers you, and forget that your words are
aimed at a real person with real feelings.
I don't see how speaking your honest opinion about an issue is a
license to cruelly upbraid someone you don't even know.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: confusion
|Date: 03 Feb 96 21:40:00
EID:a3d5 2043ad00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194388
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Hector Plasmic <=-
JS> Then why bother to butt it, Hector?
HP> I assume you mean "butt in," so the response is "Free echo last time
I
HP> checked." Otherwise, you have me confused with Stargoat.
An easy enough mistake to make, considering.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: scientists
|Date: 03 Feb 96 21:42:00
EID:3faf 2043ad40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194389
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Jose Gomez <=-
SS> I don't know what library you go to, but I don't think that any
SS> legitimate scientists explains our existence via a creator.
Dr. Hugh Ross, Ph.D. in astronomy from University of Toronto.
Christain.
Dr. Gerald Schroeder, Ph.D. in physics from MIT. Jewish.
Dr. John Polkinghorne, president of Queen's College, Cambridge and
former professor of mathematical physics. Christian.
Dr. Lane Lester, Ph.D. in genetics from Perdue. Christian.
Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin, Ph.D. in genetics from U. of Texas. Christian.
J.P. Moreland, whose doctoral degrees are in theology and philosophy,
holds an undergraduate degree in chemistry from USC. Christian.
These are the ones that I have books by and can look up their
credentials. I'm aware of many others, but I don't have immediate
access to their bios.
Note that all of these have their credentials from secular
universities. I would say they are all legitimate scientists who
believe a Creator is necessary, or at least a viable hypothesis, to
explain our existence.
Unless you want to assert that their conclusion to that effect
automatically disqualifies them. Which is simply a case of picking the
arrows you like and drawing a target around them, defining the other
arrows as misses simply because you don't like what they hit.
... The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: death
|Date: 03 Feb 96 21:59:00
EID:92f4 2043af60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8919438A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> BTW, some Christians may die in MORE fear than most
AS> agnostics/atheists. Remember, an atheist thinks it will just end.
AS> Period. Like a light switch. But a Christian thinks he is about to
AS> meet the judge of all, the Creator, and then be judged in a way that
AS> will determine how he will spend the rest of eternity.
SS> Read what you just wrote. Doesn't this tell you something about the
SS> christian religion. Doesn't it give you pause to think that something
SS> is not quite right here? After death, there is oblivion. There is
SS> evidence of NOTHING ELSE.
How do you know? There is no way to know, via experimentation or
observation, what happens after death. You're drawing a definitive
conclusion -- "after death, there is oblivion" -- with no objective
data at all.
Until telescopes were invented, there was no evidence of Jupiter's
moons. If someone had said "around Jupiter, there are no moons. There
is evidence of none," they would be quite wrong. Even though they'd
have as much basis for the assertion as you do for yours.
... Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: lynda
|Date: 03 Feb 96 22:06:00
EID:b780 2043b0c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8919438B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Fredric Rice <=-
FR>LB> I am to lie low, help me do it patiently. And if I am to do
FR>LB> nothing, let me do it gallantly. Make these words more than
FR>LB> words, and give me the Spirit of Jesus. Amen.
FR>
FR> Poor Linda. It's a shame to see someone as nice as her
FR>suffer under the delusions of superstition.
KDM> Fred, I'm pretty sure that *wasn't* Lynda.
Yes, it was.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 03 Feb 96 22:19:00
EID:19b3 2043b260
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8919438C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Brother Jimmy <=-
DW>> Bullshit, Stevie. I *refuse* to go to Hell. Does this mean
DW>> that I'm going to Heaven? Or is God going to put me in Hell
DW>> regardless of what I want?
JS>Yup.
KDM> Real loving god, Jim.
So what you're saying is, the eternal creator of the universe should
have no standards for his children? He should let murderers and rapists
waltz on into heaven if they want to?
Real just and righteous God you want there, Kevin.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: book
|Date: 04 Feb 96 19:52:00
EID:e9fe 20449e80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8919438D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
Lynda,
Another book that I can recommend as a solid rebuttal to Spong and the
Jesus Seminar is "The Real Jesus," by Luke Johnson. This one, newly
published, comes from Harper Collins. Johnson is a Catholic Bible
scholar, and professor of New Testament at the Candler School of
Theology at Emory University.
You did promise me you would read at least one such book. :)
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: David Dahl
|Sub: jerks
|Date: 04 Feb 96 19:59:00
EID:4476 20449f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8919438E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting David Dahl to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> trying to make all of us guilty by implication.
DD> I don't think the motivation is to make all Christians guilty
DD> by association. Many Christians seem to think that once they accept
DD> their saviour, they are somehow magically changed and cannot do wrong.
DD> They then try to use this to deny others being Christian because these
DD> others have done terrible things. The motivation of those who point
DD> out the bad Christians, I think, is more to show being a Christian
DD> really doesn't change a person. If a person is a jerk before he
DD> accepts Jesus, he'll be a jerk afterwards, too.
1. I don't think most Christians believe that being saved means you can
do no wrong. For most Christians I know, the opposite is true: We
become much more aware of our capacity to do wrong, and it causes us to
continually examine our lives for wrongdoing we need to root out.
I also doubt that most Christians -- and note, I'm not saying "all,"
beause I know there are exceptions -- deny that other Christians do
wrong. In fact, when a person like Paul Hill crops up, their actions
are usually widely denoucned by Christians. I think there were maybe
200 people nationwide who signed a petition supporting Hill and
supporting the murder of abortion doctors. But almost all other
Christians -- millions of 'em -- deplored what he did, and all who were
asked said so.
2. I also dispute that being a Christian "really doesn't change a
person." As I said above, most Christians take seriously their own
capacity for sin and struggle to sin less and less. Change is rarely
instant, and everyone can have bad days. But there is a great deal of
emphasis in Christian books and music on self-assessment and
improvement, and most Christians that I know take it seriously.
What often happens is that skeptics hold us to an artificial standard.
For example, they may insist that love means the same thing as
indulgence, and then denounce as "unloving" Christians who insist that,
say, adultery is wrong.
... To live without passion is to begin to die.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Ray
|Sub: ministers and money
|Date: 04 Feb 96 20:07:00
EID:f38a 2044a0e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8919438F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Ray to Michael Hardy <=-
DR> But you can bet the preacher will have dinner with the person who
DR> turns in an envelope with $1,000 instead of someone who puts $10 in
DR> the envelope.
MH> The pastor of my church is presently counseling my sister-in-law and
MH> her two children. She was recently divorced and moved back here from
MH> Texas to live with her parents temporarily.
MH> My pastor is giving them practical guidance for adjusting to the
MH> change and starting their lives over.
DR> But will Jesus deliver her from her problems, or does your pastor
DR> recommend her helping herself?
When did Jesus ever promise instant deliverance from problems?
And what's that got to do with ministers and money, anyway?
MH> He is not charging them anything. They are not members of the church.
MH> They are not even of the same denomination. He is doing it because he
MH> is a kind and loving Christian and knew they needed help.
DR> Glad to hear your sister is being helped. But I think you missed the
DR> original point.
DR> Let me ask you this. You or your pastor may disapprove of
DR> money-grubbing preachers, so why not do something about it? Why can't
DR> the religious community police itself, such as other "professionals"
DR> do, i.e. doctors, policemen, etc?
And how would you propose we do that? In fact, most organized
denominations do exactly that. But how are we supposed to stop a Robert
Tilton from buying some air time and making his pitch? All we can do,
that I can see, is challenge that example by setting a better example.
Which is why I told you about my sis-in-law -- to show that your
blanket assertion was misguided.
MH> Trash your cynicism and open your eyes, and you may find that such
MH> things are not at all uncommon.
DR> Others do this sort of thing as well, exercise the type of generosity
DR> you pastor does. And they are not necessarily all christian.
I never said they were. YOU suggested that the more money a person has,
the better the minister likes them, and I gave you information to
suggest that it's unfair to imply that about most ministers.
... NO CARRIER... A naval aviator's worst nightmare ...
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Ray
|Sub: Blinded me with science..
|Date: 04 Feb 96 20:11:00
EID:4e38 2044a160
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194390
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Ray to Michael Hardy <=-
DR> No shit. But don't try to pretend that Christianity isn't an offshoot
DR> of the ancient death cults. Educated people know better.
JS> Well, Dave, I have tried to avoid this...but...if you have evidence
to
JS> support this claim, I would like to see it. First name the 'death
JS> cults' and then show from scripture that Christianity is an offshoot.
MH> While you're at it, see if you can show a connection between
MH> Christianity and any such cult that isn't pure speculation and based
MH> on air. So far, no one has been able to.
MH> Be prepared to defend your assumptions, sources and logic.
DR> Well, I will admit I can't name specific sources, but all it takes is
DR> a little thought.
DR> Before Christianity, there were many cults who centered around some
DR> sort of sacrifice for pennance. A good number of them involved human
DR> sacrifice. Since this was the trend of the day, what else could it be
DR> based on? Tie that in with the fairy-tale precepts of the religion
DR> (such as the flood and creation) and it gets pretty hard to swallow,
DR> particularly if you analyze it with a critical eye.
DR> That's the best defense I have....
And it's none too good. In fact, there's no evidence that the themes
expressed in the story of Jesus came from any other religion.
The connections between them are tenuous at best. In the cases where a
similarity is stronger, it's also the case that Christianity predates
the other religion by centuries, meaning the influence probably went
the other way.
Also, there's not enough time. Paul was writing his first letters, with
a fully developed Christology, no more than 15 years after Jesus died.
He was writing to established communities of believers, so obviously
the Christology he held had existed for some time before the letters.
The communities were very close in both time and place to the person
involved. Significant legends, by contrast, take centuries to grow up
around historical figures.
And, the primary themes that the Christian stories depict -- a new
covenant from God for all the world, a suffering servant of God who
bears the iniquities of others and emerges victorious -- come from the
Old Testament. The New Testament fulfills what was foreshadowed in the
Old.
Any questions?
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Ray
|Sub: outdated
|Date: 04 Feb 96 20:17:00
EID:e6e9 2044a220
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194391
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Ray to Michael Hardy <=-
DR> Okay, got me on this one. But it teaches an ancient form of
DR> spirituality that is outdated.
JS> In what way is it outdated? Do you think that 'do not kill' is not
JS> relevant in today's culture? How about 'do not steal'? How about
JS> giving to the poor? Helping a guy who can't get his car started? How
JS> about being happy that someone has something he/she worked hard to get
JS> with out feeling envy?
MH> Since when do ideas come with expiration dates? You tell time with
MH> clocks, not ideas.
DR> Very profound, but hardly true. Believing in something based on
DR> fairy-tale precepts and angel sightings may have been okay in the
DR> 14th Century, but not the 20th.
Why?
... An excellent rebuttal! Now, come up with one that addresses the point.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: legend
|Date: 04 Feb 96 20:19:00
EID:f3ab 2044a260
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194392
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Salem's Lot is a novel, Danny -- an acknowledged work of fiction. The
MH> author tells us from the outset to not take it as true.
NS> It does? Can you quote from it the passage at the beginning where
NS> the author tells everyone that it's just not true? I've read all of
NS> Stephen King's books, and I don't recall him putting out a disclaimer
NS> at the beginning of a novel. I'd very much like to see your quote on
NS> this.
In most editions, it'll be on the spine of the book. It's a simple
disclaimer. Just says "Fiction."
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Biblical Errors
|Date: 04 Feb 96 20:21:00
EID:255a 2044a2a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194393
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> However, I'm not convinced that there are any errors.
SS> What? Errors have been pointed out, time and time again. I think
SS> that it can be more correctly stated that you choose to IGNORE the
SS> errors and to RATIONALIZE.
MH> Most
MH> "errors" arise from skeptics doing one of several things:
MH> 1. Reading metaphor as purported fact. (e.g., the creation account)
MH> 2. Ignoring possible cultural differences (e.g., assuming that the
MH> Hebrews counted grasshopper legs by the same system we use, and
SS> WHAT! Are you claiming that the Hebrews counted by some sort of
SS> different system where 6 = 4?
No, I'm saying they may have counted four legs and two hoppers, or
something like that. Or, the phrase "goes about on all fours" may be an
idiom for something that creeps along the ground.
And since the number of legs is OBVIOUS to anyone who looks, either of
the above possibilities strikes me as inherently more plausible than
putting it down as an error.
... On Dr. McCoy's tombstone: "I'm dead, Jim."
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Linda Whitten
|Sub: song
|Date: 04 Feb 96 20:23:00
EID:6c35 2044a2e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194394
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Linda Whitten to Michael Hardy <=-
> After you're done, are you going to write about niggers and kikes
> too? Or do you limit your offensive bigoted epithets to Christians?
LW> Just to purely offensive Xians...especially the ones I find highly
LW> offensive. Of course, there are other topics I "filk" as Gwenny
LW> knows!
Writing about "Jeezoids" would seem to bake us all in the same pie, now
wouldn't it?
... Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: position
|Date: 04 Feb 96 20:24:00
EID:e499 2044a300
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89194395
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I agree wholeheartedly with this, too. But I wonder whether children
MH> can truly cherish themselves and those around them in a society which
MH> defines a certain class of people -- the unborn -- as not inherently
MH> valuable.
KD> They're not people yet. It's that simple.
Why?
In another post, you seem to define personhood by location. (Outside
the womb.)
Why do you find that to be the deciding factor? Why not be more
concerned with WHAT the fetus is than WHERE the fetus is?
... Tagline deleted -- Nothing funny about this.
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: MCDOWELL
|Date: 01 Feb 96 12:16:00
EID:add8 20416200
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 100c3031
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Al Schroeder <=-
> AS> from her internet connection. So, we will no longer be
> AS> supporting AOL.
> JH> What were her reasons?
> JH> Did it have anything to do with FOF and Dobson?
> Thank you for asking that. I wanted to but didn't, lest I get more
> accusations of 'supporting a boycott'.
Supporting a boycott can be a quite honorable thing to do, such as any time
it weakens the hold of Focus's ilk on our Nation......
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: Jesus said "EAT ME!"
|Date: 01 Feb 96 12:23:01
EID:1e2b 204162e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 100c3033
REPLY: 1:154/69.0 31093412
PID: FM 2.02
>> believe in Him or not. And, He loves you whether you believe
>> it or not.
> ...even homosexuals?
>> against what is PERCIEVED (or NOT percieved).
> "I before E, except after C"
Unless you are attempting to spell "EINSTEIN" or "ATHEIST"!!
slack -- s.
~!~ Tye Gledbrog Vrius si VEREYHWERE!!
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Christian Miller
|Sub: Gods, not god
|Date: 01 Feb 96 12:37:02
EID:3d59 204164a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 100c3034
REPLY: 1:3603/800@fidonet.org 9015fc89
PID: FM 2.02
> On Wednesday, January 17th, 1996 - Sean McCullough wrote:
> SM> Now: Got any EVIDENCE that your God exists outside your imagination,
> SM> and the imaginations of your fellow self-delusionists??
> So you're trying to tell me that all of the believers since "way back
> when", are wrong?
Yeppers.
I DENY their claim that their God exists beyond their imaginations.
And I will CONTINUE to deny said claim until some believer coughs up hir
God for my examination.
> We, as humans, thought the sun revolved around us...
>
> We used to think the world was flat... Why try to deny everything that
> points TOWARDS God and focus those things?
Because nothing HONESTLY "points toward God", as you phrase it. NEVER has
a believer been able to provide HONEST, DIRECT evidence that hir God exists.
As I have told you before, all that Scriptures from the past are evidence
of is that other overactive imaginations had the same delusions before you
contracted them.
Paul of Tarsus' BLATANT LIES in Hebrews 11:1 NOTwithstanding, faith is evidence
of NOTHING. And all the alleged INDIRECT evidence in the universe isn't
worth a Goat Fart without at least ONE piece of DIRECT evidence to corroborate
it.
And NO believer has ever been able to show me said piece of honest direct
evidence. EVER.
So, Christian: You have two choices here, and ONLY two.
Either cough up your God for my examination -- cause your God to appear
and communicate with me without my first dropping my disbelief -- NOW, or
publically admit that there is no such thing, NOW.
I'm waiting.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Knock, Knock!! Who's there? Cthul! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Christian Miller
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 01 Feb 96 12:44:03
EID:cd97 20416580
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 100c3035
REPLY: 1:3603/800@fidonet.org 901788ce
PID: FM 2.02
> Gt> Every xtian I've ever seen does all they can to make a buck off of
> Gt> you.
> Well, you've never met me, my family, or my pastor... now have you? ;)
What does your pastor do for a living??
If you cannot answer this question independently of religion, Gwenny is
correct (as usual).
> Gt> NO, fool. I am talking especially about my eldest, who has a chemical
> Gt> imbalance that causes him to have difficulty dealing with ANY
> Gt> emotion. Had I hit him, betrayed him, he would now be permanently
> Gt> committed in the mental hospital. Violence, of ANY kind, is seldom
> Gt> the answer. If you can't control 'em by three, chances are you never
> Gt> will. I WILL NOT HIT MY KIDS....perverts.
> Yeah yeah... A good swat to the butt won't harm any kid.
A few more dead Jesus cultists won't harm ANY society.
Too damn bad it's considered murder, rather than what it is (verminicide).
> Gt> He was a Christian. He was a coward. He was a therapist. He
> Gt> couldn't deal with his own fear. He was a Christian. Seems to go
> Gt> together for me.
> Knowledge of being a Christian is only truly known between the
> individual & God. He may have said it, but maybe never was.
Ah yes, the "He's Not A True Christian!" cop-out (Argumentum ad Bozum Non
Christi).
They profess Jesus, you Jesus cultists are stuck with them -- and EVERYTHING
they do. And this applies ONLY to Jesus worship.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Knock, Knock!! Who's there? Cthul! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: The Ultimate Shit List - Part 1.
|Date: 02 Feb 96 11:30:04
EID:ab36 20425bc0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 108b704c
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 10c21a93
PID: FM 2.02
> ZA> P.S.-- Thanks for not cussing when responding. You're one of the
> ZA> few.
> ÜÛ
> ÜÛßÛÜ ÛÛ
> ÛÛ Ûß ÛÛ
> ÜÛÛÜ ÜÛÛ ÜÛÛ ÜÛßßÛÜ ÛÛ Ü
> ÛÛ ÛÛ ÛÛ ÛÛ ßß ÛÛÜß
> ÛÛ ÛÛÜßÛÛÜ ÛÛ Ü ÛÛßÛÜ
> ÛÛ Ûß Ûß ÛÛÜÜÛß ÜßÛ ßÛÛÜ
> ÛÛ
> ÛÛ
> ÛÛ
> Û
> ...and such an innocent letter combination at that. It's rather simply,
> merely four letters and only one syllabal. For such a tiny thing, it
> really does get you all worked up.
Cut him some Slack, Ryan.
The ONLY visual art even supportABLE in the Saudi wastes IS writing; hence
Arabs get a little testy about it.
> Perhaps Allah has a course on stress management.
I doubt it, unless it's in the Leipzig Sectors in northcentral Asia.....
slack -- s.
~!~ First superpower with religious freedom: Mongolia, 1050-1500
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: ABORTION CONTRAST
|Date: 02 Feb 96 11:32:05
EID:74a8 20425c00
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 108b704d
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 10c21a98
PID: FM 2.02
> Boni Hitch wrote in a message to Gwenny The Pooh:
> BH> I have a tagline that states,
> BH> "Why worship a god who violated a virgin's civil rights>"--wanna
> BH> steal it?
> Oh, how PC.
True, nonetheless.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Christian control?
|Date: 02 Feb 96 11:35:06
EID:b4b8 20425c60
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 108b704e
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 10c21a99
PID: FM 2.02
> Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
> RS> JJ> Please explain what you mean. How does Christianity
> RS> JJ> "politically control the masses" or "rob them blind"?
> RS>The very nature of organized religion [which includes religions in
> RS>addition to christianity] means that there is control involved. It's
> RS>a way to control people, be it convincing them that god would want
> RS>them to tithe or anything else.
> JJ> Come on, Ryan, that does not begin to answer the question.
To
> JJ> say that Christianity is "politically control[ling] the masses"
> JJ> requires that "Christianity" be some monolith that is directing
> JJ> the central actions of the majority. Is that true?
> I said _masses_, not majority. They are different.
And no "monolith" is required for Christians to be seeking -- and getting
-- control over others, either.
What they are willing to AGREE ON will generally suffice for such abuse.
> And don't tell me organized religion is not political. I may puke.
Stercum minimum.
In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate religion from politics when the religion
involved is an authority cult -- and Biblical religion IS an authority cult
(witness Maria Russell).
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Knock, Knock!! Who's there? Cthul! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Fun in Church...
|Date: 02 Feb 96 11:46:07
EID:3b60 20425dc0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 108b704f
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 10c21a9a
PID: FM 2.02
> Boni Hitch wrote in a message to Shelby Sherman:
> BH> THis'll break Jim's heart, Some Native tribes have rituals like
> BH> that and the people LIVE!
> Sure, everyone would after you milk the snakes and then dunk them in a
> cold river. The suckers won't even want to move.
I can attest to this. "HEAT, HEAT!!" :-) Snakes from tropical habitats
especially.....
> If you're dealing with the specie of rattlesnake in Oregon then you
> wouldn't have any problems either. I can't remember the name, but it's
> not as agressive as a Diamond Back and the bit amounts to about ten bee
> stings. It's almost never fatal either.
Moreover, the "snake-handling" Pentecostal cults are known for collecting
snakes (especially rattlers) from HOT climates and hold services in places
where it gets genuinely cold. As such snakes generally don't know WHAT to
do about that level of cold, they generally "refrigerate themselves".
Gwenny, however, is correct: some tribal Shamanistic cults have clergy who
had been bitten by __neurotoxic__ reptiles, and then get "stung" on purpose
so they can hallucinate for religious purposes.
I personally can testify that this happens.
In 1994, roughly this time of year, I sat on a neurotoxic spider.
For forty-five DAYS I was pissed off at the entire world, depressed as hell,
and having episodes of VIOLENT hallucinations.
During this time I set a good chunk of DragonFest on fire destroying a yellow-jacket
nest. The autocrats were NOT amused!! Actually, I only nuked about as much
as one tent would cover -- because I at least had the presence of mind to
REMOVE THE COLEMAN FUEL SUPPLY from where the immolation took place.
Estimate of the spider type was what we Coloradoans call a "sun scorpion"
(Latin taxonomy unavailable). However, it's only a guess, as all I could
tell about it was that it was a [SPLAT] spider when I first got a look at
it.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Knock, Knock!! Who's there? Cthul! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 100/525 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: god=hoax
|Date: 02 Feb 96 11:48:08
EID:4e50 20425e00
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 108b7050
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 10c21a9b
PID: FM 2.02
> JB> Show me concrete proof that there is a god. The bible doesn't
> JB> count, for all I know a few drunk guys got together and made it up!
> Hell, we'd all just settle for a bit of evidence. Nevermind the proof
> part.
AHEM.
Proof applies to SCOTCH, Ryan.
"Nevermind the proof part" my ass!! :-)
slack -- s.
~!~ 100 Pro