God Damned Fundies!
|From: David Worrell
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:44:41
EID:e2a7 20491d80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311ac373
REPLY: 1:280/9 131223ac
04 Feb 96 22:09, Rob Burcham wrote to J.J. Hitt:
JH> DW>> You'll be amazed at all the Cro-Magnons that come out of
JH> DW>> the woodwork.
JH>> I was under the distinct impression that the current version
JH>> of humanity was the Cro-Magnon. Did they finally come out with
JH>> Humans95 while I wasn't watching?
RB> I'm a member of Humans 3.11, myself. (Humans for Workgroups)
Hell, I'm a member of Humans 1.0. I don't multitask very well and I don't
get along well with more than one other human at a time.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:35:51
EID:f981 20491c60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311ac2b2
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31180910
06 Feb 96 08:17, Andrew Masten wrote to Frederick Leff:
AM> God is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.
Tell it to Job.
AM> God loves unconditionally.
Tell it to the Israelites who suffered through various captivities because
they
AM> He is just.
Tell it to all the unborn children killed when Sodom and Gamorrah were destroyed.
AM> But He is merciful.
Tell it to all the unborn children killed in the flood.
AM> He knows the future as if it already happened.
Yet he didn't know that the serpent would trick Eve into eating the fruit
of the tree.
AM> He is not a man that He should lie.
Then why hide the evidence for the flood?
AM> He changes not.
You obviously haven't read that Bible very carefully. He goes through a
remarkable change somewhere between the end of the OT and the start of the
NT.
AM> There is none beside him.
Who'd want to be beside the murdering bastard? I wouldn't want to be on
the same continent with him.
AM> Our wisdom is His folly.
Do you consider the cures that we've discovered (our wisdom) for many of
the diseases that plagued manking throughout history to be folly?
AM> Our strength is His weakness.
How can an omnipotent being have any weaknesses at all.
AM> His ways are not our ways.
Damn right. We don't go around slaughtering people out of hand, as a rule.
AM> His thoughts are not our thoughts.
I'm glad not to share any thoughts with a being who would send a bear to
maul children just because they made fun of a bald-headed prophet.
AM> He has a sense of humor.
Job really got a kick out of God's sense of humor, didn't he?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: Laats Mij
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: toodles...
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:59:31
EID:9e7a 20491f60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311ac6de
REPLY: 1:124/9005 3119128e
07 Feb 96 20:58, Steve Quarrella wrote to Judith Bandsma:
JB>> Any side bets as to how many different new names will soon start
JB>> popping up?
SQ> Ones we never dreampt imaginable, I expect.
How'd you guess?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Former Soviet Union
|Date: 08 Feb 96 06:52:03
EID:e595 20483680
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 1408a712
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting SUE ARMSTRONG to JESSE JONES on 02-04-96
SA> MB>Or do you deny that we have these social problems and civil
SA> MB>rights violations in this country?
SA> JJ> You know well that I do not deny the social problems and civil
SA> JJ> right violations we have had in this country. Comparing Reno to
SA> JJ> Stalin, however, is sick, and you know it. Do you deny that
SA> JJ> the Bill of Rights is the single most valuable document adopted
SA> JJ> by any government to protect the rights of human beings? Do
SA> JJ> you deny that the former Soviet Union did not protect any of
SA> JJ> those basic human rights? This nation has far too-often failed
SA> JJ> to live up to those noble ideals, but they are still there as
SA> JJ> our standard, they are a wonderful standard, and they clearly
SA> JJ> distinguish this nation from the former Soviet Union.
SA>Actually, the constitution of the Soviet Union had some pretty
SA>noble language in it as well - I remember seeing excerpts from it
SA>a few years back.
I suppose you left it in your other jacket -- along with Joe
McCarthy's list of communists working for the State Department.
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
Do you keep eating after finding dog hair in your pasta?
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: A Visit 4/4
|Date: 09 Feb 96 14:59:22
EID:d1b0 311bb5d6
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 311bb5d6
I still like the: "MARRIED, WILL CHEAT" area... [snort]
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Re: Fundy Follies!
|Date: 09 Feb 96 15:01:06
EID:81ff 311bb664
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 311bb664
> Yikes!! Babble-ink on the hemorrhoids! The horror......the
> horror....
Oh, the HUMANITY! :)
BTW, unless it's an old bible, there is no need to worry because soy ink
won't hurt those o-so-tender places!
:)
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Circular reasoning
|Date: 09 Feb 96 15:03:04
EID:81ff 311bb740
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 311bb740
> He's a PREACHER!!?? That fully explains the exchange I
> had
> with him. I quoted a scripture where his gawd bragged about
> creating evil. He then actually QUOTED IT BACK TO ME, minus
> that one phrase "I created evil." Lynda chastized him for
> lying instead of addressing the issue I raised. I then
Actually, he quoted back to you the "cleaned-up" version where the word
*evil* is changed to a kinder, more-gentle (tm) word... The copy of the
Gideon Bible (which I procured from Wyoming, MI, Jim Staal's hometown) is
listed as "confusion" instead of "evil"...
Hugs!
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: flood
|Date: 09 Feb 96 15:06:23
EID:81ff 311bb795
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 311bb795
> DC> So, Martin Godberg, when did you become a deity?
>
> Depends on what kinda shit I'm smoking.
Ya gotta give up those incense cigarets! The resin will pickle ya!
Try clove! [cough]
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Re: In the service...
|Date: 09 Feb 96 15:09:12
EID:81ff 311bb827
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 311bb827
> On (02 Feb 96) Richard Morrison wrote to Karl Schneider...
>
> RM> US Navy // Construction
>
> I was not aware there was a Seabee unit in Missouri. My
> dad's stations
> were Adak and Port Hueneme.
Maybe he meant to say he was in *erection*? hehe
Hugs!
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: I,M STILL HERE
|Date: 09 Feb 96 15:10:20
EID:81ff 311bb8a0
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 311bb8a0
> JB> tacky.
> JB> Want a job?
>
> I do! I do! I'm pretty good at spotting "tacky", too.
> I provide
> Mark Hogan as a reference - he knows me personally, and
> will
> concur that I am, indeed, tacky.
I was first! (pushing and shoving you aside)
Listen, honey (hands on hips, tapping foot) NO ONE is more tacky that I
am! [hehe]
Hugs!
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Evolungelical
|Date: 09 Feb 96 15:15:54
EID:81ff 311bb9fc
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 311bb9fc
> Says who? And in what way am I "valuable"? I've no marketable
> skills, I make little money and so don't contribute much
> to the
> economy, I'm a misanthropic communist who has no interest
> in
> entering politics, and the only thing I'm even remotely
> good at
> is drawing cartoons that put the likes of you into apoplectic
> fits.
> I can't stand kids, can't cook, and hate cleaning so thus
> would
> never fit into the Christian stereotype of women being moms
> and
> housewives. So, in what way am I valuable to anyone or
> anything?
> Hell, at least bugs and plants are a part of the ecology.
> Can't
> honestly say the same about myself.
Darling! I'm home! Hell, if I was straight, you sound just like the woman
I would want to marry! {hmmmmmm...wonder what size hood you wear...} hehe
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 09 Feb 96 02:57:00
EID:4932 20491720
MSGID: 1:271/460 311afe75
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 31196e74
Wednesday February 07 1996 00:46, Robert Jackson mumbled to ALL:
RJ> First he lays into BroJimmmy, then Mcabee...this is GREAT!
Robert,
Nice to know I'm known around here... Shame he couldn't come up with anything
new...
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 09 Feb 96 02:58:01
EID:4b49 20491740
MSGID: 1:271/460 311aff43
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 31196e73
Wednesday February 07 1996 00:44, Robert Jackson mumbled to Jose Gomez:
RJ> Then why didn't your god actually tell the entire world of
RJ> his plan?
God did reveal his plan to us, and the collection of that plan is what we
call today, the Holy Bible.
RJ> Why just that isolated little ministry that lasted
RJ> only three years, in a small province of the Roman Empire?
That was all he needed to prove to the Jews who he was. Remember the Bible?
It says to the Jews first and also to the Greek (meaning the rest of us).
RJ> Why not a worldwide manifestation of his "message"?
That is why Christ said before he left the earth, go into the world and
preach the Gospel.....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:07:02
EID:2cb5 204918e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b0270
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 130935fc
Wednesday February 07 1996 10:01, Fredric Rice mumbled to Damien Wellman:
MB>> Then how come Jehovah, in the first person, yet, bragged about
MB>> having created it (in Isaiah)?
SW>> Where does it say that Marilyn?
FR> Another Christanic doesn't even bother reading his mythologies.
dw>> Try reading this:
dw>> "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL:
dw>> I the LORD do all these things."
dw>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^ - Isaiah 45:7
FR> A buck says the Christanic will demand you're "twisting god's words."
Fredric,
Very Good you've learned to read the Bible. Tell me how could we have something
to choose from if there was not a choose against. Yes, it is true that God
created all things. If you will believe that God created evil because of
this passage, then you must also believe what else was written in this passage.
How about Isaiah 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is not
God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"
Isaiah 45:6 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the
west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none else."
Isaiah 45:9 "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd
strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth
it, What makest thou? or thye work, He hath no hands?"
Isaiah 45:10 "Woe unto him that saith unto his father, Wht begettest thou?
or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?"
Isaiah 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am God, and there is none else."
Or can you only read the scriptures so that you can twist them around?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staal
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:15:03
EID:f431 204919e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b032e
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 130935fe
Wednesday February 07 1996 10:05, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kevin D. Mckenzie:
BH>> CHRISTIAN HORIZONS
KW>> Looks fine to me. If the organization is owned and run by
KW>> christians why shouldn't they be able to choose who they
KW>> want as employees?
FR> But then Ken is a bigot.
Isn't that kinda like the pot calling the kettle burnt?
Definition of bigot....
A person who is utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or race that is
not his own.
Sounds an awful lot like some of the people I meet here that do not believe
in God.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW, Staal
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:20:04
EID:426a 20491a80
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b03ff
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 13093604
Wednesday February 07 1996 10:27, Fredric Rice mumbled to Anthony Grigor-Scott:
FR> Why don't you and Al just do what every other Christanic cultist does
and
FR> kill each other, allowing your intellectual superiors to talk rationally
FR> among themselves?
Fredric,
Be happy to allow my intellectual superiors to talk rationally amongst themselves,
unfortunatly, I don't find any around here. The only "intellectual superiors"
I have are in heaven.....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Free Jim Staal!
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:22:05
EID:708d 20491ac0
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b0448
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 13093608
Wednesday February 07 1996 10:31, Fredric Rice mumbled to Dan Ceppa:
FR> I wonder if Jim Staal _can_ be freed from his hatred and bigotry. He
FR> doesn't seem to want to escape Christianity any more.
Fredric,
No true Christian would......
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Gods, not god, staal
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:22:06
EID:fd4c 20491ac0
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b04b1
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 13093609
Wednesday February 07 1996 10:34, Fredric Rice mumbled to Christian Miller:
CM>> It's not very smart to worship a rock.
fr>> Whereas you worship paper.
FR> So much for your Christanic lie about fleeing this forum in fear.
cm>> How do I worship paper?
FR> You're not a Christian so you only pretend to worship paper.
Fredric,
From all that you've said to others and myself Fredric, specifically about
who was a Christian and what that so called Christian did, I doubt very
much if you would know a Christian if you fell over one.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:24:07
EID:0d40 20491b00
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b04dc
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 1309360a
Wednesday February 07 1996 10:34, Fredric Rice mumbled to Christian Miller:
cm>> Here I thought no one loved me anymore! You guys are just
cm>> talking ABOUT me instead of TO me. Gee, I get left out of
cm>> my own conversations!!!
FR> We've figured out that you're not a Christian.
Fredric,
Another judgement by Fredric Rice. Let's see if it holds water on judgement
day....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorant of history
|Date: 09 Feb 96 03:26:08
EID:0b34 20491b40
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b0e92
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31193e71
Wednesday February 07 1996 12:49, Lynda Bustilloz mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
LB> Kenneth, I asked before, but what with Fido goofing off you may have
LB> missed it -- this isn't the first time you've said something like the
LB> above. Do you see, then, a possibility of salvation for nonchristians?
LB> On what basis would someone like Hitler (esp. if a nonchristian) be
saved?
Lynda,
I've said many times that being a Christian has nothing to do with being
saved. There are many saved people in the world that do nothing for Christ
at all. Just having salvation does not qualify you as a Christian, reading
a Bible, praying to God and going to a "Christian church" does not qualify
you as a Christian. So what then do I consider a Christian? A Christian
is someone who follows Christ, not just believes in him, but follows him.
How? By going into the world and preaching the gospel as Christ himself
taught us to do. By trying to live a life as Christ would have lived it.
For instance, in the case of Hitler, Christ would not have tried to wipe
out the Jews.....
However, salvation can only be had through the Lord Jesus Christ. "Jesus
saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto
the father, but by me." John 14:6 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that
heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,
and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life."
To answer how Hitler could have had salvation, the best way I can say it
is to present salvation itself.
1. You must know that you are a sinner. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned
and come short of the glory of God." It's being short of the glory of God
that keeps us out of heaven and away from God to start with.
2. Know that there is a price for the sin. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of
sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our
Lord." A wage is a price, someone must pay for the sins that you have in
your life. Just as with your rent or a car payment, someone else can pay
for them, but they must not have any sins themselves. That is why the only
way that we can go to heaven is through the gift of God, his Son.
3. Know that Jesus paid that price for you. Romans 5:8 "But God commandeth
his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for
us." That was the reason he came to earth, a sacrifice must be without blemish,
if you get someone else to pay for your sins, they must be without blemish.
Christ is the only one that ever died without sin so that others could live.
4. Jesus is the only way to have eternal life. Not through being good, not
through doing good things or good works, not through going to church every
Sunday, not through reading the Bible and praying everyday. Ephesians 2:8,9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it
is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast." Salvation
is only through faith. Just going to church every Sunday doesn't save you.
Being a good person doesn't save you. Doing good deeds doesn't save you.
The only thing that can save you is trusting Christ for salvation. There
are also a lot of people that believe about Christ but not in Christ. I
use this example at times. I have a 77 Plymouth. My dad lives 5 hours away,
I could believe that that car will make it to his house, but if I take my
Ford (just to be safe) am I really believing that the Plymouth would make
it? There are people that believe that they got saved but lost salvation
because they sinned again. There's no promise that we will not sin again,
but when Christ died, he died for all our sins, not just part of them. When
you accept Christ's payment for sins, you have to accept his payment for
all of them, not part of them.
5. All it takes is asking Jesus to save you from hell. Romans 10:13 "For
whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Not might
be, not he'll think about it, but shall (or will) be saved. A lot of people
including some of those that call themselves Christians, think there is
more to it than that, but there isn't.
So how could Hitler have been saved? He must have realized that he was a
sinner. He must have understood that because of those sins that he was going
to hell. He must have believed that Jesus died and paid that price for him.
He must have believed that it was Jesus alone, and not his good words that
could save him from hell. He must have asked Jesus to save him. How would
he have done that? With a prayer something like "Dear Jesus, I know I'm
a sinner and that I deserve hell. So I trust you Jesus, and you alone, to
pay my sin debt and take me to heaven. Amen". Hitler would have had to have
trusted Christ for salvation at some time in his life, that is the only
way that he could have been saved.
Once salvation is gained you have it forever. John 5:24 "Verily, verily,
I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent
me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is
passed from death unto life." So if you believe you gain everlasting life.
How long is everlasting? If something is everlasting can it ever end? If
one is passed from death unto life, can they ever die?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 09 Feb 96 04:11:09
EID:adae 20492160
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b1114
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 131353ee
Wednesday February 07 1996 19:46, Styx Allum mumbled to Brad Jackson:
>> SA> I said to read (both) chapters 1 & 2 of Genesis. Read chapter 2
>> SA> to see how it suddenly reverses to Adam first... THEN the animals.
>> SA> But don't pay the ferryman until he gets you to the other side.
:)
>> Well at your request I read both Chapters of Genesis. I don't
>> see the problem you are having with it. Please quote the verses
>> that you are having trouble with!
SA> By your command...
SA> GENESIS
SA> 1:24 And God said, Let the earth
SA> bring forth the living creature after
SA> his kind, cattle and creeping thing,
SA> and beast of the earth after his kind:
SA> and it was so.
SA> 1:25 And God made the beast of the
SA> earth after his kind, and cattle after
SA> their kind, and every thing that creepeth
SA> upon the earth after his kind: and God
SA> saw that it was good.
SA> 1:26 And God said, Let us make [editor's note: "us"? ]
SA> man in our own image, after our [editor's note: "our image"?!]
SA> likeness: and let them have dominion
SA> over the fish of the sea, and over
SA> the fowl of the air, and over the
SA> cattle, and over the earth, and over
SA> every creeping thing that creepeth
SA> upon the earth.
SA> 1:27 So God created man is his own
SA> image, in the image of God created
SA> for him; male and female be created
SA> them.
SA> [editor's note: Now that 1:24-1:27 defined the order of
SA> animal before man; let's proceed to 2:18-2:19]
SA> GENESIS
SA> 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is
SA> not good that the man should be alone;
SA> I will make him a help meet for him. [whoah. heavy grammar!]
SA> 2:19 And out of the ground the
SA> Lord God formed every beast of the
SA> field, and every fowl of the air;
SA> and brought them unto Adam to see
SA> what he would call them: and
SA> whatsoever Adam called every living
SA> creature, that was the name thereof.
SA> [doesn't look good for keeping things in chronological perspective,
SA> and diminishes credibility of the messenger. The story changed
SA> before even reaching the end of the second chapter.]
>> Or maybe you re-read them!
SA> Hey, it's right there in front of you. Read for yourself.
>> And remember to use the King James Version please.
>> Because some of the other version have parts missing.
SA> Or perhaps the King James version has parts ADDED.
SA> At any rate, you can see above that it contradicts itself.
The account in the second Chapter does not say that this is when God first
created them. "formed every beast of the field" notice the words of the
field? Means they were already there. "every fowl of the air" they were
already there too. So God created them out of the dust to show them to Adam
and to find out what Adam would call them. However it does not say formed
every beast for the field, or formed every fowl for the air does it? God
was showing them to Adam, not creating them for the first time.
SA> ref: 2:19
SA> What do you suppose Adam named Tyrannosaurus Rex? Triceratops?
SA> How do you suppose God brought deep sea anglerfish to Adam,
SA> that he give it a name? (it says "every living creature")
SA> [hint: Deep sea anglerfish burst upon rising to the ocean's surface]
Hint: A God that could create everthing could keep the anglerfish from bursting.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: I've found a Real, True Xtian
|Date: 09 Feb 96 04:20:10
EID:7389 20492280
MSGID: 1:271/460 311b127f
Wednesday February 07 1996 21:10, Norbert Sykes mumbled to David Worrell:
NS> (It's astounding to watch a Xtian slipping gears after you've just
NS> informed him that if it wasn't for Judas and Pilate, his religion
NS> wouldn't exist at all!)
Norbert,
Here's something to note, I believe that Pilate would have had salvation,
remember what he had placed above Christ? That he was the King of the Jews?
The Pharisee's tried to make him change it, but he refused.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Keith Pachulski
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE A
|Date: 08 Feb 96 08:31:09
EID:392f 204843e0
MSGID: 1:272/72.0 891DC4E6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0455
-> KD> As a feminist, it is impossible for me to accept a male god and
-> KD> savior.
->
-> the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the
-> so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God."
-> Gal 3:28. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor
-> there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus
KP>I think I`m going to puke
-> And remember, after Jesus rose again, He did not first appear to P
-> whom He entrusted His church; or to John, the disciple He loved best
-> first appeared...first showed the Miracle, the Joy from beyond the w
-> of the world...to Mary Magdelene. Whom she called
-> "rabbi"...teacher...indicating that Jesus did not share the common J
-> belief in not teaching women higher spiritual matters (which makes t
-> idea of Jesus being an Essene laughable.) but instead would instruct
-> and all.
KP>Yeah, I`m going to.
-> And early Christianity was considered a "woman's religion" by the
-> pagans, much as some regard Wicca now. And the fact that Christians
KP>Wrong..check your facts...Wicca is not "considered" a female
religion.
-> not expose female children, as pagans often did, to die eventually
-> resulted into a more even male-female ratio, rather than the prepond
-> of males, as mentioned by nontheist hsitorian Robin Lane Fox.
-> Suppose I was convinced of the truth of the Wiccan beliefs, but re
-> to join it because it celebrates a Goddess and Cerrunnos serves a so
-> subsidiary position, and that the vast majority of practitioners are
-> priestesses? What opinion would you have of ME?
The vast majority are not priestesses...it is equally balanced. Before
you start babbling make sure you have your facts straight.
-> We have brought it on ourselves. We have driven away minorities li
-> gays and a majority, like women, by our misapplication of God's word
-> it is not suprising that many would create their own religion. ->
Nevertheless, if God chose to manifest as a male in a society that ->
very male-oriented, one does not need to doubt God's love for the fe ->
population. Everything we say about God, being infinite, must be a ->
metaphor. Even when we say God is neither truly male or female, but ->
spirit (as expressed in the Bible) we really don't know what we say. ->
KP>The bible is a fairy tale........
see "through a glass darkly" as Paul said. -> -> -> -> -> -> ...
Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. -> ___ Blue
Wave/QWK v2.12 -> --- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2 -> * Origin:
Silver Xpress Mail System (1:116/3000)
Sincerely yours,
Keith
....Magickal and proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Keith Pachulski
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: TOODLES...
|Date: 08 Feb 96 08:35:25
EID:4fe7 20484460
MSGID: 1:272/72.0 891DC4E7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0455
-> JS> To those I might have offended, I reget that. To those who perce
-> JS> offense, it wasn't my intent. I pray that in that day of days, G
-> JS> will have mercy on our souls: the atheist/pagans for not heeding
-> JS> message that was clearly stated with boldness and unshrinking ho
-> JS> and on me for the mistakes I have made here while striving to ma
-> JS> the truth.
->
-> Well said. And one of the reasons I regret we never knew the REAL Ji
-> Staal, just the personas you chose to let us know. Because as everyo
-> here will notice, THIS message was much clearer and lucid than many
-> have received.
-> It is our loss that you hid the real Jim for so long.
KP> Tsk tsk..once again they hide behind the book and the men who ware
responsible for millions of deaths and caused the oppression of women
and children worldwide. Oh fear the pagans for they know the truth and
will not succumb to such idiocy as the book.
......I am Magick...watch we dance
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:30
EID:61e5 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa14f
TID: GE 1.11+
JH>On Jan 30 21:32 96, Michael Hardy of 1:3625/470 wrote:
JH> That post really had me deeply concerned for a moment.
JH> I couldn't figure out what I had done to deserve being
JH> compared to you.
ROFL!
---
* SLMR 2.1a * It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:26
EID:25c8 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa14a
TID: GE 1.11+
BJ> Well at your request I read both Chapters of Genesis. I don't
BJ>see the problem you are having with it. Please quote the verses
BJ>that you are having trouble with! Or maybe you re-read them! And
BJ>remember to use the King James Version please. Because some of the
BJ>other version have parts missing.
BJ>We can continue as soon as you like Styx.
BJ>Brad
The KJV, is it? That's funny. We keep getting Christians who
insist the KJV is junk. Then we have ones like you who insist
upon using it. You'd think that if Christians had any brains
at all, they'd at least be able to figure out which of their
story books is the One True Storybook(tm).
---
* SLMR 2.1a * On a clear disk you can seek forever
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:31
EID:10dd 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa150
TID: GE 1.11+
KM> DW> I've got it right here? Don't believe me? Where's your evidence
that
KM>such
KM> DW> a book does not exist?
KM>Send me a copy.
You were asked for evidence that the book doesn't exist. Asking him
for a copy is asking for evidence that it _does_ exist, which is a
completely different scenario.
KM>Give it a rest David, I know the difference between God, the tooth fairy,
the
KM>Easter Bunny and Santa Clause.
Yup: the other ones don't have a track record of inciting people to
kill. Of course, all of them - God included - are purely imaginary
until evidence shows otherwise.
KM>fairy, the Easter Bunny and Santa
KM>did not die for anyones sins, and they did not create the world. Saying
that
KM>they are real is not the same as saying that God exist, simply because
God
KM>does exist and they do not.
God exists? Really? Okay, show me. You can't? Oh, so I guess he
doesn't exist. Make up your mind.
KM> DW> The tooth fairy claims to be the creator of the universe. It says
so
KM>right
KM> DW> here in this book. Where's your evidence that I do not have such
a book?
KM>Don't need any evidence that you do not have such a book. If you do,
and the
KM>tooth fairy claims to be the creator of the universe, then the tooth
fairy is
KM>false, there is only one true God and it's not the tooth fairy.
Why? Because *your* book says so? Well, his book says something else.
Why should I believe your book? Upon what testable evidence is it
based?
KM>No David I don't, I see the stupidity of one trying to use the tooth
fairy to
KM>show us that we cannot prove to you that God is real.
*IF* God is real, then in principle, he could be demonstrated. Since
you have failed to demonstrate that He exists, we must assume that
either he doesn't, or, if he does, that you have no evidential
knowledge of it.
Since you have no evidential knowledge of God's existence, it follows
that your claims that God exists are either the ignorant and futile
rantings of a child screaming "Is too!", or are outright lies.
Which is it, Kenny?
KM>An IOU is about something physical, not spiritual, I can just as easily
claim
KM>that I have a cancelled check in front of me that shows I already paid
it.
KM>Along with it, I can claim that I have a signed receipt from you saying
that
KM>the account was paid in full. So what?
So what? You have just demonstrated that any half-bright noodle-loving
twit can make all sorts of claims about things existing, and that
simply making the claim does *not* show that what is being claimed
is valid.
In short, you have just shown that when you claim "God exists", all
you're doing is spewing hot air. It is just as easy to claim "Odin
exists", and it has exactly as much meaning.
Further, you have demonstrated that a claim, without evidence to
back it up, is inherently meaningless. Since your claim "God exists"
lacks supporting evidence, then by your own examples, it becomes
a meaningless claim.
KM> You can't pray to an IOU,
Sure you can. "Oh please, IOU, get paid off today. I need the money."
Mind you, this probably won't do you any more good than praying to
God will, but if you're into the latter sort of delusion, why not
the former as well?
KM> DW> Are you *really* this fucking stupid, Ken?
KM>No David, I'm not stupid at all, I have different opinion about the Bible
KM>than you do, that doesn't make me stupid.
It does if your opinion is "This is real, and I refuse to even think
about the possibility I might be wrong."
KM>for it or not. Are you so stupid that you cannot see that a God that
can do
KM>anything, could do it without leaving any evidence for you?
So you're saying God is a liar? How nice. But if God is a liar, and
the Bible is God's word, doesn't that make the Bible a book of lies?
And still you believe it. How weird.
---
* SLMR 2.1a * Hello, I am part number ****************
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Kenny is back into his de
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:32
EID:5af9 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa151
TID: GE 1.11+
KM>No Steve, I'm not the one that will be falling into anything. There is
not
KM>such thing as a fundy, a babble of fairy-tales or a gawd.
So you're an atheist now, are you? Well, as much as I would rather
you remained outside our ranks, I guess I have litle choice but to
congratulate you upon finally renouncing your silly religious beliefs
and grabbing a brain.
---
* SLMR 2.1a * We all live in a yellow subroutine.
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: More dan a. post
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:35
EID:b2b0 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa153
TID: GE 1.11+
KDM>Oh yeah? Well, don't tell anyone, but . . . I'm one of
KDM>the Twelve Jewish Bankers.
And I'm the rest of them. ;)
---
* SLMR 2.1a * A physicist is an atom's way of knowing about atoms.
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One God
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:27
EID:ee9e 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa14b
TID: GE 1.11+
BJ> SB> If god hates the sin and loves the sinner, why is he/she/it sending
BJ> SB> the *sinner* to hell? He should be sending the *sin* to hell and
BJ> SB> keeping the sinner.
BJ>Now you ask why God is sending the sinner to hell well I think you
BJ>should read his Book! Great story line, I have a hard time putting
BJ>it down. Now the best version I would say has to be the King James
BJ>Version! Yes Yes that is what I would say alright! King James
BJ>Version I am really amazed at the fact that so many people don't
BJ>have bibles! And if they have them they don't seem to be reading it.
BJ>I'm on page 1198 and when I get done I will have to read it again.
BJ>I am sure I missed some good stuff. You know how it is when you are
BJ>tired and fall asleep reading.
BJ>Brad
I notice you don't even *try* to answer the question. God
supposedly loves the sinner. Yet, according to the story, the
sinner - not the sin - is going to suffer.
Now, there is *some* logic to this. People tend to learn by
experience, and if their experiences are negative, they tend
to learn not to repeat them.
However... according to the tale, if you wind up in Hell, it's
too late, you have no chance to get out. This means there is no
instructive value to the process; its only value is in amusing
a sick mind that gets off on the torment of others.
So, are you one of those who can't tell the difference between
torment and love? If so, do we send the police in now to protect
your family from you?
---
* SLMR 2.1a * Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One God not three
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:28
EID:eebc 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa14c
TID: GE 1.11+
BJ> I think you have me mixed up with one of your other friends,
my
BJ>name is Brad, not moron.
Name: Brad.
Category: Jeezoid.
IQ Level: Moron.
Got it now, or shall we write it on stone tablets for you?
---
* SLMR 2.1a * hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY?
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One Staal
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:29
EID:6fff 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa14e
TID: GE 1.11+
BJ> Ok Fredric, I have already said sorry for writing that
BJ>statement. I now realize that it is your choice and I shouldn't
BJ>feel bad because you don't want to believe.
Do try to plug your brains in for a bit. Nobody here, at least on
the atheist side, cares one way or the other about believing. We
neither want to nor want not to.
Now try to follow this. We don't care. We maintain an open mind.
In order to convince us of your view, all that is required is some
*evidence* to support it. If you can show us that God does, indeed,
exist - or even is the most probable explanation for life, the universe,
and everything - then we'll have little choice but to accept your
conclusions. Until then, we simply don't care.
BJ>You ask in this message
BJ>what is the difference between
BJ>believing in God or Odin. I don't know who Odin is first off and
BJ>second I am sure he won't forgive your sins and let you into Heaven!
Nope. He'll judge you after death and if you don't measure up,
you won't get into Valhalla.
Oh my. This sounds so much like your Christian mythos. Yet you'll
no doubt treat this as so much mythology without ever realizing
the double-standard you use.
BJ>Now onto your tagline or your last statement. You and many others
BJ>would like to see me removed or corrected, I am sure.
Nothing personal. We're just amazed that anyone with absolutlely
no ability to think rationally can exist at all; their entire
mental energy would be consumed by the demanding task of breathing
through their mouth.
BJ>I am so glad that I have friend in Jesus! Because you folks are not
BJ>making me feel very welcome.
Get a clue, dipshit. You spew mindless claims with nothing to
back them up but an old book of myths, how do you expect people
to treat you? Look at the way you react to other religions -
you simply dismiss them as meaningless. Well, we dismiss you
as meaningless. Grab a brain or go away.
BJ>I know you didn't mean for it to sound
BJ>that way!
I do. Grow up, learn to think, or go fuck yourself. Better yet,
go fuck Jesus. From all the "In Jesus" crap we see around here,
he must get off on that sort of thing.
BJ>I know we sometimes hurt the ones we care the most about!
Indeed, but in order for that to apply, someone here would
have to care about you. Can you suggest who that might be?
---
* SLMR 2.1a * If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny.
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it eith
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:33
EID:8acf 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa152
TID: GE 1.11+
KM>Ask to prove, but to the test, tempted. The reason I won't drink is because
I
KM>will not tempt God.
The reason you won't do it is you're a fucking coward.
Deal with it, Kenny. No amount of your pitiful whining will ever
manage to convince anyone that you have any faith at all, since
your every post screams otherwise.
You know damned well that the test is not of God, but of your faith,
yet you avoid it at every step. If you really had any faith, you
would stand up and show your faith by meeting the challenge.
Nope. Instead you cower behind empty words, afraid that someone
might notice that your faith is hollow and empty.
KM>Christ would not do the things that Satan asked him to do
KM>to prove that he was the Son of God, and I will not prove to you that
I
KM>believe by drinking your poison.
You see? Even here, you admit that the test is of *YOU* and not
of God. Yet you still refuse. You have no faith, coward. At least
have the guts and the personal integrity to stand up for yourself
and admit you have no faith.
---
* SLMR 2.1a * All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
--- GrapeVine BBS v0.23 Reg
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:32:36
EID:639d 20499c00
PID: GVBBS 0.23 Reg
MSGID: 1:153/792 311aa154
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> Plenty. The whole point is that God became a man and did endure
MH> suffering. You don't think being scourged and then nailed up would
MH> hurt?
Since you're still spewing this line, allow me to reintroduce my little
treatise upon the "suffering" of your God.
Since we know that the universe is some 15 billion years or less old,
I will use this as a starting figure. Please note that if God has
existed longer than this, it merely makes your "suffering" argument
even sillier.
So. 15 billion years. Now, let's suppose, for the sake of argument,
that J.C. was nailed to the cross and hung there for, oh, three days.
Let's do some math.
15 billion years * 356 days / year = 5.475 * 10^12 days. Now, to
convert 3 days to a percentage of this, as I recall, we would
divide 3 by this figure and multiply by 100. That give us a
value of: 5.47945.... * 10^-11 percent.
Okay. So that's the percentage of one's life which, if spent
suffering, you seem to consider significant.
Very well. Let's apply this to people. Let's assume that the
average person lives some 75 years. The time spent suffering,
then, would have to be:
75 years * 365 days / year * (% value above) = 0.0.000000015 days.
Hmm. Let's convert that to seconds, shall we? Multiplying by
86,400 gives us 0.001296 seconds.
So, for a normal person to spend as much time suffering, calculated
as a percentage of their lives, as your god-on-a-stick did, they
would have to spend a total of a little more than a thousandth of
a second suffering.
Take now, if you will, the case of a woman going through a 30-hour
labour. We know this is common enough. Hell, I even know one
woman who, during delivery, had her crotch split wide open, front
to back, requiring her to be stitched back together.
So. A 30-hour labour compared to a thousandth of a second of suffering.
The numbers here get interesting. 30 hours, time 3600 seconds per
hour, is 108,000 seconds. Divide this by the 0.001296 seconds we
calculated above, and we find out that, based upon the portion of
their lives spent suffering, the woman goes through...
EIGHTY THREE MILLION times as much suffering.
Now, am I supposed to be impressed with the suffering he went through?
Sorry; I'm much more impressed with what women around the world
go through every day.
Now, mind you, I may have dropped a decimal point somewhere - my maths
were never as good as they should be. However, assuming I'm off even
by a factor of 10,000, that still means that the woman would experience
several thousand times the relative suffering that your godsicle went
through.
Oh, boo hoo. Such a poor, sad, suffering god.
MH> Plus, there's no knowing what was going on on a deeper level. Jesus
was
MH> taking all the sin of those people who would ever accept his grace,
MH> taking it into himself, for only he could expiate it. For a God who
is
MH> so holy he despises even little sins, how much suffering do you think
MH> that entailed?
Apparently, not a hell of a lot. Boo hoo.
MH>... Without the right to life, all other rights mean nothing.
Tell that to the victims of Jonestown and Waco.
---
* SLMR 2.1a * Another casualty of applied metaphysics. -Hobbes
--- GrapeVine BBS v0.23 Reg
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: One Goat
|Date: 10 Feb 96 00:46:00
EID:3f32 204a05c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 11804215
REPLY: 1:154/69.0 311aac5b
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Scot Bear wrote in a message to Brad Jackson:
> your day. Many people are diceived by things others have
> told them,
SB> I think you should get your nose out of the bible and get a
SB> spelling book. Your spelling is atrocious! Do it!
But wait! If Brad didn't have so many misspelled words in his posting...how
would we ever know he is a fundy??
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Violating physics
|Date: 10 Feb 96 00:42:15
EID:139f 204a0540
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 11804214
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 dd010612
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
John Brawley wrote in a message to Fredric Rice:
FR> For you, perhaps. You want to pretend that you're ahead of science
FR> and that the rest of the world will eventually catch up to you.
JB> Ah. That particular form of erroneous mental garbage is called, by
JB> cognitive scientists, "jumping to conclusions." It has two
JB> sub-forms: "mind reading" and "fortune telling." Both are
JB> cognitive distortions.
That is a laugh coming from you...the King of Reality Distortion.
JB> Yours is the "mind reading" form, in which
JB> you presume to know what the content of another person's mind is.
In this instance, Fredric is making TWO mistakes. The second is assuming
there is a mind to be read from.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ABORTION
|Date: 08 Feb 96 17:50:00
EID:2ea1 20488e40
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 311b7d7f
And Brave Sir Dan ran away, screaming "ABORTION"!
DC> Yep, a brass bell ball.
SA> Be thankful it's not something the size of your Liberty bell, or
SA> Big Ben or something - that would need someone to hit it with a
SA> large stick ..
SA> You'd hear guys groaning from miles away.
DC> No need to worry, as it's not a major disease. It only turns green.
DC> It's just the brass clapper.
DC> (why do I hear you groaning from 2,000+ miles away?)
You're lucky I don't pick up the phone and groan directly in your
ear for that joke.
[Err, wait. Perhaps I should reword that ..]
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... The Masters had left the Earth. They couldn't stand the barking.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 08 Feb 96 17:52:01
EID:dd04 20488e80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 311b7d80
And Brave Sir Dan ran away, screaming "CHRISTOLOGY"!
SA> line drawings of a dove with a knife tucked under his wing, and a
SA> wolf with an olive branch in his mouth.
DC> Very fitting... Looks like there's one more book I'm going to
DC> have to find the time to read.
It's well worth it, if it can be found. I'm not sure if it's in
print any more; the printing I have is from 1972, and it cost all
of 87 cents at the second-hand bookstore. I haven't re-read it
yet (the first time I read it was a library copy, years and years
ago) but I'm beginning to feel that it would be worth giving it
another read quite soon.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... It took a dog to unmask the deception of the Wizard ...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Why
|Date: 08 Feb 96 18:00:02
EID:90ce 20489000
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 311b7d81
And Brave Sir Dan ran away, screaming "Why"!
SA> The last thing I read, they just brought in 25 or 30 more from
SA> Canada. 4 of the original transplants have been killed, but they
DC> Getting going a lot stronger than I thought. I know the ranchers
DC> near the Park were very concerned...
The only reason it's been going at all, apparently, is because
they're working on private monies, and thus were able to keep
going despite the recent governmental shutdown (or was it a
near-shutdown?) in Washington. Defenders of Wildlife is also
keeping a fund for ranchers who can prove that their livestock has
been killed by wolves. Apparently, only about $200 or $300 has
been paid so far wrt Yellowstone wolves (equal to the cost of
about 2 sheep.)
SA> the Yellowstone ecosystem now, rather than have it being just an
SA> elk farm of sorts. Human nature tends towards polariased views,
SA> so the sheep or the deer is seen as "good" while predators are
DC> That's funny... Out her in the Olympic Nat Park, the goats are
DC> considered to be "non-local" and damaging to the Park...
Mountain goats, or feral domestic goats?
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... Join the "Hunt the Hunters Hunt Club" - 1-900-SHOOT-EM
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Revised (by ME) HS list
|Date: 08 Feb 96 18:04:03
EID:3317 20489080
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 311b7d82
And Brave Sir J.J. ran away, screaming "Revised (by ME) HS list"!
SA> Dennis Webber Indiana Eckankar
JH> ^^^^^^^^
JH> Wheeee!
JH> How is it I never noticed we that we had one of THOSE in our midst?
He only really seems to have mentioned it once or twice -is he
even still around?
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... Nature abhors a vacuum, and won't pick up a broom, either.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 08 Feb 96 20:52:04
EID:f1f1 2048a680
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 311b7d83
And Brave Sir Scot ran away, screaming "A LITTLE HELP FROM SP"!
> I only got to the point
> about two
> years ago where I can handle getting blood drawn
> with a syringe.
SB>
SB> ...and they call ME a sissy!?!? :)
Wouldn't dream of it. I've considered donating blood (they don't
pay for it over here, so the financial aspect is automatically out
of the question) but every time I seriously think about it, I get
really queasy. I don't even think $50 would be a great enticement
unless I was completely penniless.
Just the thought of it now makes me want to pass out.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... Where do you take an unwanted Chia Pet?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 08 Feb 96 21:03:05
EID:9a4a 2048a860
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 311b7d84
And Brave Sir Preston ran away, screaming "A LITTLE HELP FROM SP"!
PS> at once) and prescribed it in capsule form for post-op pain
PS> management. It was wonderful, truly blissful.
RJ> When Bob Saget was actually funny, he did a standup routine
RJ> where he talked about getting his appendix out and being on
RJ> Demerol. He said, "I'm not sure, but I think those were the
RJ> four happiest days of my entire *life*."
PS> It's definitely fun stuff. Kept me incoherent for about two days. The
PS> thing is, it doesn't so much keep you from feeling the pain as it
PS> keeps you from just not caring about it. You realize on a vague,
PS> distant sort of level that you're in excruciating pain, but you just
PS> don't give a damn.
They gave me something called Darvon-N (after looking it up to
check, I'm pretty sure that's what it was) after my second kid was
born, in hospital. Usually, they just give you Tylenol #1 or 2,
but codeine doesn't do very much for me, so they had to administer
something a wee bit .. stronger. And boy, is that shit _strong_.
I was so beyond pain it was incredible. It even had the other
women in my ward _demanding_ the stuff, after seeing how ... happy
.. I was. :) Looking at the warnings in the description, though,
it seems to be quite dangerous, though it's not a narcotic (but it
sure acts like one.) Hell, you don't even realise you're in pain
on this stuff - you don't even realise you have a _BODY_.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "Eye for an eye, hell! A HEAD for an eye!" -- Razor
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Maria Russell
|Sub: Adam
|Date: 08 Feb 96 22:16:06
EID:e3d3 2048b200
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 311b7d85
And Brave Sir Katherine ran away, screaming "Adam"!
MR>You are presuming that ALL animals were created at the same time. Didn't
MR>domestic dog came from the wolf family, and cats from the feline family
etc.
MR>Adam did name all the animals created at that time. But we know today
that we
MR>can cross-breed many animals and produce new species. Don't you think
KW> "nature" MR>could to all by its self?
There is no "wolf family". Wolves are but one species within the
genus Canis, which is but one genus within the family Canidae,
which is but one family within the order Carnivora (which is but
one order in the class Mammalia, which is but one class in the
phulum Chordata, which is but one phylum in the kingdom Animalia.)
The domestic dog (Canis familiaris) appears to have been bred by
man from one or more sub-species of wolf (possibly C. lupus
pallipes and C. l. arabs). Other species within the genus Canis
include the dingo (C. dingo, but may soon be reclassified as C.
familiaris dingo, if it already hasn't been - there is also talk
of reclassifiying the domestic dog itself as C. lupus familiaris),
the coyote (C. latrans), the golden jackal (C. aureus), the
black-backed jackal (C. mesomelas), the side-striped jackal (C.
adustus) and the red wolf (C. rufus, which may be a product of the
natural cross-breeding of wolves and coyotes where their ranges
overlap.)
This genus is closely related to the other Canidae, which includes
the dhole (Cuon alpinus), the arctic fox (Alpoex lagous), the
crab-eating fox (Cerdocyon thous), the European red fox (Vulpes
vulpes), the grey fox (Urocyon cinerreoargenteus), the kit fox
(Vulpes velox), the red fox (V. fulva), the South American fox
(Dusicyon culpaeus), the African hunting dog (Lycaeon pictus), the
bush dog (Speothos vernaticus), the raccoon dog (Nyctereutes
procyonoides) and the small-eared dog (Atelocynus microtis) -
among possible others that might have slipped my mind at the
moment.
The Carnivora themselves appear to have evolved from the
Creodonta, which existed over 100 million years ago, according to
the fossil record and the geological column. The Carnivora are
split into two branches - the "dog branch" and the "cat branch".
The cat branch is pretty lonely - it includes only the Felidae
(which includes the domestic cat, which appears to have been bred
from a species of small, wild African desert cat, lions, tigers,
lynxes and all the critters generally recognised as "cats"), the
Hyaenas (which are indeed more closely related to cats than dogs
despite appearances - surprise!) and the civets (Viverridae) as
well as some extinct forms. The Canidae themselves are very
closely related to the bears (Ursidae), the weasels (Mustelidae),
and the raccoons (Procyonidae) -- and all seem to have evolved
from a family called Miacidae (named for the fossil Miacis) which
existed between 50 and 60 million years ago. As noted, the
Micidae evolved from the Creodonta, which in turn evolved from the
mammal-like reptiles of the late Permian, which in turn evolved
from true reptiles, which of course evolved from amphibians, which
came from lobefin fishes, which in turn came from more
conventional fish, which in turn came from Pikaia (the first
chordate we know about) which in turn came from lifeforms without
spinal cords, which in turn came from single-celled organisms.
So, yes, nature CAN create new species all by herself. Glad you
see the wisdom of the fossil record, which does indicate that
evolution did indeed take place.
Shall we now discuss the human family tree? That, too, BTW, can
be traced back to Pikaia.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "Take THAT, _Creation of Man_!"
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Bible Follies
|Date: 09 Feb 96 02:38:07
EID:3b85 204914c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 311b7d86
And Brave Sir Robert ran away, screaming "Bible Follies"!
RJ> I had a sociology class taught by an ex-nun--she was a pretty
RJ> good teacher. Although she didn't do this lecture, I heard
RJ> she was (in)famous for one on language, where she began the
RJ> class by writing the word FUCK in huge block letters on the
RJ> blackboard.
RJ> I could just imagine the pseudo-proper bowheads in that class
RJ> pretending they never heard of such a thing, objecting to the
RJ> discussion on "moral grounds". But then, that's what it's
RJ> like going to college in the buckle of the Babble Belt.
I once had the good luck to have an English teacher who actually
understood literature, and wasn't afraid to explain all he knew.
When we started taking _Romeo and Juliet_, he was certain to
explain to all of us (after ensuring the classroom door was shut)
all the dirty jokes Shakespeare liberally sprinkled in that play.
Of course, he did try to mince words a bit, but usually wound up
having to explain it in more .. detail for the slower kids who
couldn't get the more roundabout hints. Unfortunately, there was
one chick who likened herself to be "prim and proper" (no, not me.
I was actually amongst the first to laugh when he pointed out
where the jokes were) who kept piping up with "Sir, that's
DISGUSTING!" He kept pointing out that HE didn't write it,
Shakespeare did, and got so fed up one day, he went into a long
speech about how if he DIDN'T make sure we understood EVERY WORD
in the book, he simply wasn't doing his job. She still put on the
indignant stuff, though. I wonder if she ever wound up
siccing her parents on the poor sod? I hear he's still teaching,
though, so even if she did, it didn't work. Thank goodness;
decent English teachers are damn hard to come by, especially ones
that actually understand what the hell is contained in literature.
I think I learned more in two classes he taught (both 11 and 12)
than in any other years hence. And I did take _Romeo and Juliet_
once before that, in gr 10, before I switched high schools -- the
second time around was MUCH more interesting and informative, to
say the least. Frankly, I couldn't see what was so damn great
about Shakespeare before I got him as a teacher .. but then, none
of the other teachers apparently knew, either - or else they were
just too chickenshit to teach it properly.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "It's a miracle curiosity survives formal education" - Einstein
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: A Visit 4/4
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:30:11
EID:360c 20499bc0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 61e351c8
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311a33b0
JB>> in a S&M theme. He was totally serious. Wanted something he
JB>> could order about 100 of. Jeez.
DM> Whip that smile off yer face, Bandsma, and get to
DM> pouring slip! Surely a scrotum with alligator clips and
DM> wires is not too tough to mold--what with the weekend (and
Party favors for the Marquis d'Sade's birthday?
June 2, btw. They're getting an early start.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:33:47
EID:b029 20499c20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 61e35d8e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 311a5bd0
MG>> Yeah....we might have to raise teacher's salaries.
PS> The horrors. And who knows, we might actually start getting some
PS> competent people to teach. What new depths of insanity would
PS> *that* lead to?
Actually, to tell the truth, if you raised salaries to a point where people
would wnat to teach and all of them did teach, there still wouldn't be enough
really good teachers to tackle the job. Teaching takes a certain inner
talent. Training and schooling helps, but you have to be adept at it.
The system now certainly doesn't make those that want to teach teachers.
The system with a nice fat salary would be a fix that just didn't have a
big enough band aid.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: names
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:56:00
EID:4ea0 20499f00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MG>> My point is, that's it's not too important. If you wanted
MG>> your god and religion treated with total respect, you should
MG>> read another echo.
MH> Oh, it doesn't bother me at all. Just makes the people who do it
MH> look sorta silly, IMO.
MG> I disagree. I think it often makes the religion look rather silly.
Oh come on. Smug people referring to Christians as Jeezoids no more
makes Christianity seem silly than smug Christians referring to
atheists as "heinous blasphemers" makes atheists looks heinous. Both
just make the person calling the name look childish.
... To live without passion is to begin to die.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: YHWH
|Date: 09 Feb 96 19:57:00
EID:b3a4 20499f20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MG>> 2. Hell on Earth...the constatnt suffering of persons for
MG>> reasons unknown.
MH> And if such reasons are unknown, how can you presume to judge
MH> them insufficient? Perhaps there is a God who allows
MH> suffering for a very good reason, but it simply isn't
MH> fathomable from our perspective.
MG> I see you picked the wrong part of the question. "Reasons unknown"
is
MG> a poor choice of words. Hell on Earth is the important part. The
MG> reasons may be unclear, but since there is suffering, there is
MG> imperfection, no matter wht point of view you have. That means a lck
MG> of a perfect god.
No, Martin, it doesn't. A perfect God by your standards would be forced
to create humanity as mindless automatons -- robbing us of our capacity
for moral choice and therefore robbing us of what makes us human. Your
"perfect" God is paradoxically limited in His options, and thus not
perfect at all.
MH> Your characterization is faulty. It isn't accept "Jess" and let
MH> the starving go with nothing. It's believe in Jesus and
MH> allow God to begin making you more and more like Jesus,
MH> which means to become more and more attuned to the needs of
MH> the starving, and others in need, and work to satisfy those
MH> needs. The theme of helping the needy is all through the
MH> Bible.
MG> This again, is not the subject of my critique. Theists on this echo
MG> have told me that someone that they consider sinful can accept the
MG> savior on their deathbed and be saved. Why so little? Feeding the
MG> starving would be, at least to me, a faster route to any salvation.
For someone not on their deathbed, in fact, such good works are the
inevitable result of genuine faith. "Faith without works is dead." But
why should God be so merciless as to condemn someone who does genuinely
repent on his deathbed? Sure, you might argue, the person should have
thought of that sooner, and you'd be right. But he didn't. Would a
perfect God turn away sincere repentance, however belatedly offered?
MG>> 5. The poor design of nature...Cancers and other tumors and
MG>> the constant changing of species to mitigate the
MG>> environement (evolution).
MH> What ever made you think that the universe was designed to be
MH> perfect?
MG> Because your god is perfect. There is no reason to believe that
MG> anything he creates is anything but perfect. Again, it's Occam that
MG> slices this one.
No, it's your narrow definition of what consititutes perfection. Why
would a perfect God be *limited* to creating only a mechanical
clockwork universe where nothing can go awry?
MG>> 6. Religion based atrocities...While, I admit, a very
MG>> minority of religious persons are involved, they still
MG>> take up a good deal of our history books. A real god
MG>> would have prevented, at least this, bunch of acts performed
MG>> in his name.
MH> Presumption. Who are you to declare what a "real god" would do?
MG> You'll say anything to keep from admitting tht your god screwed up.
A
MG> god that allows the Inquisition? I don't think so. The answer is that
MG> there was nothing there like a god to stop these murderers.
There's nothing in Christian theology that suggests God *should* stop
the murders. If we're here to make free moral decisions, then God can't
play cosmic cop everytime someone is about to get hurt.
God *will* judge the murderers, however, and unless they repent --
which isn't insincerely saying "I'm sorry," but really feeling the pain
of sin -- they will be terribly sorry.
MG>> 7. Need to test...Instead of perfection, there is this
MG>> god's "need to test" us when the perfect being knows the
MG>> outcome anyway. Millions die or suffer due to these
MG>> tests.
MH> I don't know of anything in the Bible to suggest that God
MH> "tests" everyone. Besides, while God may know the outcome,
MH> we don't. If you're a parent, you know that sometimes your
MH> child may be capable of something and not know it -- until
MH> you test him and allow him to see in himself what you knew
MH> was there.
MG> Why doesn't god just make him perfect. Why cause tribulations with
MG> testing?
What would be the point of creating beings who are already "perfect"
(by your standards)? They would be able to make no free choices -- and
thus would be imperfect.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: lost years
|Date: 09 Feb 96 20:34:00
EID:5347 2049a440
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Hogan to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> It's "bunko" for anyone to presume to tell us now just what Jesus was
MH> doing in those years. There is no information on it at all --
MH> anywhere -- so any such account is conjecture at best.
MH> Good, you finally admitted the Christian/Catholic religion is
MH> nothing more than conjecture, at best. Good! I applaud your bravery
MH> for admitting that point which all of you seem to cover up like a
MH> dirty secret.
MH> Is English not your native language? I clearly said that whatever
MH> Jesus was doing in the time which the gospels do not relate is
MH> unknown, and reconstructions of such are conjecture. I didn't say
MH> anything at all to that effect regarding the Christian religion, which
MH> is based on what he said and did during the time the gospels do
MH> relate.
MH> Admittedly, I was mincing [your] words. However, re-read it; it
MH> says, specifically, in English, that any account is conjecture at
MH> best. It's "bunko," Michael, for _anyone_ to presume to tell us now
MH> just what Jesus was doing in those years. You said it yourself.
You still don't have it. Read it again. What I said was "any SUCH
account" is conjecture, with "such" referring back to accounts of the
"lost years" of Jesus. You dropped "such" when you restated the phrase,
thus changing its meaning from what I said.
I suspect you're simply playing word games. If that suspicion proves
true, I'll add you to my twit filter. I'm not interested in wasting
time that way.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: Christian jobs
|Date: 09 Feb 96 20:42:00
EID:6688 2049a540
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Hogan to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> how one views the world and will affect how you approach certain jobs.
MH> Give me a break. Stop trying to rationalize your bigotry. I'm
MH> aware of racists whom I hold in higher respect than you, at the
MH> present moment -- at least they can ADMIT they're prejudiced. That's
a
MH> [small] step better than where you are now.
Let's say you have a job open for a truck driver. Are you prejudiced if
you don't accept applications from blind people?
MHo> "The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because
MHo> the average man can see better than he can think."
... speaking of prejudice, your tagline lobs a hefty dose of sexism at
both men and women.
... An excellent rebuttal! Now, come up with one that addresses the point.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: archives
|Date: 09 Feb 96 20:44:00
EID:cfd4 2049a580
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Hogan to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> That is, why can George say to someone whose father was hospitalized
MH> following a series of strokes "Your old man croak yet?" and no one
MH> bats an eye; but if Jim made a similar remark, he'd be hearing about
MH> it for months? Why can Larry Sites call a woman a cunt and no one but
MH> me bats an eye, while Jim was hung out to dry as a misogynist for
MH> calling a woman a bitch?
MH> I wasn't referring to his usage of the word 'bitch.' I was
MH> specifically denoting his comments to Gwenny concerning her ex-
MH> husband, and how he was a 'smart man' [sic] for beating her and then
MH> leaving her. You're some sadistic hairball, Michael. [You did, after
MH> all, defend the post wherein he made that comment.]
No, I did not. I assisted him in clarifying his meaning -- that
Gwenny's ex was smart (in JIM'S opinion) for being her ex. Jim never
condoned his beating her, that I could ever detect.
I found Jim's remark to be appalling enough without the
misinterpretation that was being laid on it, so I helped him express
himself better.
Can you really not see the difference between that and condoning?
... A fool and his money are soon partying.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: bats/birds
|Date: 09 Feb 96 20:46:00
EID:4e82 2049a5c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kelsey Bjarnason to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> The simple fact is, according to Strong's Hebrew/Greek Concordance,
the
MH> word translated "birds" in this passage does not explicitly mean "bird"
MH> at all. It means things that fly.
KB> Interestingly, however, it neglects to include wasps in the list.
KB> Or, indeed, any flying critter other than birds and one which someone
KB> who lacks any biological experience might confuse with a bird.
There is a different word for flying insects, so obviously the Hebrews
would have understood the word in context. It probably meant larger
flying animals.
Are you so entrenched in your insistence on criticizing the Bible that
you're going to deny that Hebrew words mean what they mean?
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 09 Feb 96 21:14:00
EID:f424 2049a9c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Lump <=-
SS> Are you bailing out too, shit-stain? Oh, I forgot, you are Jim
SS> Staal.
Lu> ....Nah, that would mean you won(even tho that'll never
Lu> happen) and that I gave in and I'm not that way....You're just too
Lu> entertaining....
LB> but your "brother" IS "that way"?
LB> Jim, quit hiding. It's pointless.
Psst. He's not Jim. This much I know for sure.
... SEX education? I thought this was SECTS education!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: legend
|Date: 09 Feb 96 21:16:00
EID:7405 2049aa00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Dan Ceppa <=-
MH> Scholars date the earliest letters of Paul almost unanimously dated
MH> to the late 40s and early 50s. They are explicitly Christian in the
DC> Scholars date the Aurthurian legends to about 1100 CE.
DC> That makes them true.
KD> Better than that, Dan -
KD> We have confirmation of a factual basis for the Arthurian legends from
KD> multiple sources, including archaeology. Most scholars state pretty
KD> strongly that there was some real man who formed the basis of the
KD> legend.
But what we don't have is any evidence that people who knew Arthur
personally believed the legends less than 10 years later.
But we do have evidence that people who knew Jesus personally believed
he really rose from the dead, and that no significant amount of time
elapsed before this belief developed.
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Offensive ASCIIs
|Date: 09 Feb 96 21:21:00
EID:47ff 2049aaa0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Damien Wellman <=-
DW> Don't blame me... I only found it. I'll try to work on it a little
DW> myself and see if I can't shape it up, so to speak.
LB> I've never tried doing an ASCII drawing before, but how does this
LB> look:
LB> ____________
LB> ___/ \___
LB> |\ _____/ \___
LB> | \ / \
LB> | \ / ### ## ## # # ### ## \
LB> | \ / # # # # # # # # # # # \
LB> | \/ # # # # # # # # # # # @ \
LB> | # # # # # # # # # # # \
LB> | # # #### ### # # # # # # |
LB> | # # # # # # # # # # # # /
LB> | /\ # # # # # # # # # # # # \_/
LB> | / \ ### # # # # # # ### # # /
LB> | / \ /
LB> | / \____ ____/
LB> |/ \___ ___/
LB> \_____________/
LB> || ||
LB> ||__ ||__
LB> |___| |___|
Like a suck-up to the heathens? (JOKE!!!)
... Hester Prynne got an A for adultery. I barely made a C-minus.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: preachin'
|Date: 09 Feb 96 21:25:00
EID:1455 2049ab20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 891E43D9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Fredric Rice <=-
MHo> So, you're a Really, True Christian, AND prejudiced. Nice.
MH> Think about it, Mark. The letter was from a what? Christian
MH> evangelist, right! And it was sent to who? A Christian church, right.
MH> So the message was meant for what group?
MHo> That you can say that with a straight face is a mystery to me,
MHo> Michael. Look: It was a letter from a what? A Christian
MHo> evangelist. It was sent to who? A Christian church. So, it can be
MHo> applied to who? Christians. So, the next time a, what? Christian ...
MHo> preaches to me, I'll proclaim (Gal 1:9 NIV). You said yourself, it
MHo> only applies to Christians. That's fine; I'll use it on Christians.
MHo> They're the REALLY preachy ones, anyway.
LB> Just trying to keep the definitions straight, Fred. Based on this,
LB> since Mike
LB> is keeping nonbelievers out of his "fantasy construct", Mike is NOT
a
LB> fundy, right? You're really *quite* sure that you're content to stick
LB> by your definition?
... Without the right to life, all other rights mean nothing.
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 09 Feb 96 16:33:32
EID:d9b1 20498420
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 3921ca0d
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 3119f98a
On 08 Feb 96, Hector Plasmic wrote:
JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
HP> The lack of an evidenced deity, perhaps? :-)
Perhaps, but that's useless in arguing with a Fundamentalist anti-
science creationist, eh? ;)
If y'can't take 'em all the way, take 'em _half_ way. The only thing
more dangerous to a FundieCretinist's argumentative stance than an out-
and-out atheistic materialist is a Theistic Evolutionist. They can't
call _us_ atheists, and hence can't use that particular emotionalistic
debate weapon against us.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... Science: Words and Music by God; arrangement by QM, for full Chorus
only.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 09 Feb 96 22:14:00
EID:1bbb 2049b1c0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 1415d92f
REPLY: 1:207/212 78175dbc
> Ronald Reagan opposed abortion.
Yes, and he was once a democrat. Even score.
(i.e. one for republican, one for democrat... same person.)
> So do many of the current presidential candidates.
Please do not group Bayou-cannon with Gramm or Dole.
(And I couldn't care less what Forbes thinks or doesn't think)
I've yet to hear Dole or Gramm speak out in favor of illegalizing
abortions. Have you? The "many" qualifier would indicate so.
> Ronald Reagan passed the Hyde Amendment, which prevented federally
> funded clinics from even MENTIONING a LEGAL medical procedure.
He couldn't pass it by himself. The democratic congress had to
pass it, too.
> Most of the current crop of conservinazis support traditional
> gender roles.
Who are these conservinazis? I want to know which ones you consider
to be extremist, in comparison to who you consider to be average
conservatives.
The term "traditional gender roles" indicates majority opinion.
Do you believe that the majority is conservative? Unless you do,
your statement reflects that non-conservatives agree with what
you attribute to "conservinazis". Funny how prejudice reveals
itself in subtle contradiction.
Such is fundamentalist liberalism; whose primary tactic is
fear peddling to a gullible audience. Not at all unlike Christianity.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 09 Feb 96 23:24:01
EID:8d92 2049bb00
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 1415d930
REPLY: 1:207/212 ca6c0294
>SA> Please cite an example (based upon first-hand observation)
>SA> if you expect me to consider your claim to be a valid one.
>SA> I'm a conservative, and I'm about as non-mysogynistic as
>SA> one can be.
> You're rare.
Then so are all of my other conservative friends.
Perhaps you need to expand your scope of conservativism beyond
what the liberals would prefer to limit you to.
> You conservatives keep switching back and forth - if something
> good happens, it's either because of the Conservative president
> or because people were stupid enough to elect conservatives
> into congress. If something bad happens...
Apparently, you haven't read what I've said repeatedly:
THE PRESIDENT SERVES AS A FIGUREHEAD AND SCAPEGOAT.
CONGRESS HOLDS (almost) ALL OF THE POWER.
None of the things that you attribute to conservative presidents
could have happened without the majority of (a democrati