God Damned Fundies!
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Bartender!
|Date: 11 Feb 96 19:33:00
EID:79fe 204b9c20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214392
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to J.j. Hitt <=-
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Ryan Shaw <=-
JB>
JJH>> User Favorite Poison
JJH>> - The Late J.J. Hitt Sugar-laden teeth rotting Cola
RS> Ryan Shaw draught Guinness
JB>
JB> Judith Bandsma Diet Coke
JB>
Michael Hardy 2 parts IBC Root Beer, 1 part cream
... First a Swede, reincarnated as a Norweigian: Yep, I'm Bjorn again.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Export...
|Date: 11 Feb 96 19:35:00
EID:46a5 204b9c60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214393
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jose Gomez <=-
KDM> Give me charcoal to the measure two.
KDM> Send the bullet where you want it to.
KDM> Give me sulfer to the measure three.
KDM> Make that powder gonna keep you free.
KDM> Give me salt peter, measure fifteen.
KDM> Sweetest shootin' that you've ever seen.
Hey nonny nonny hey hey
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 11 Feb 96 19:36:00
EID:41c1 204b9c80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214394
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kelsey Bjarnason to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> Well at your request I read both Chapters of Genesis. I don't
BJ>see the problem you are having with it. Please quote the verses
BJ>that you are having trouble with! Or maybe you re-read them! And
BJ>remember to use the King James Version please. Because some of the
BJ>other version have parts missing.
KB> The KJV, is it? That's funny. We keep getting Christians who
KB> insist the KJV is junk. Then we have ones like you who insist
KB> upon using it. You'd think that if Christians had any brains
KB> at all, they'd at least be able to figure out which of their
KB> story books is the One True Storybook(tm).
Name one Christian on this echo -- past or present -- who has said the
KJV is "junk." I am the closest I can think of, and ALL I have said is
that it is slightly inferior to more modern translations -- and more
because of the way English has changed since 1611 than any weakness in
the KJV itself.
Got any evidence for your claim?
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: God's Word...
|Date: 11 Feb 96 19:37:00
EID:2977 204b9ca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214395
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Robert Jackson <=-
PS> No, actually. I stole the tagline elsewhere, but I was familiar with
PS> the characters of Chiun and Remo from an obscure little film I saw
RJ> "Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins" wasn't all that
RJ> obscure. It was a big-budget thing with some fairly big names.
PS> Not many people that I know of even knew that such a film existed.
PS> Hell, for a long time, *I* didn't know that it existed.
It featured "What If," one of Tommy Shaw's better post-Styx songs.
... This score just in: Deep Space 9, Babylon 5.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: information
|Date: 12 Feb 96 18:53:00
EID:1622 204c96a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214396
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I have already answered his challenge on this. I am NOT arguing
MH> for censorship of any sort. I'm arguing for simple courtesy and
MH> respect, which I no there's little hope of getting.
MH> I do not endorse censorship of any sort.
RS> Good, then just skip over messages that you find offensive.
Very often I do exactly that. However, sometimes I choose to exercise
*my* freedom of speech to express an opinion.
RS> As I have
RS> stated before, it would be even more offensive to even think of
RS> limiting `offensive' speech.
Should there be hardcore pornography on broadcast television at 4 in
the afternoon?
If you say no, then it would seem that you do condone some limits on
free speech.
... Definition of Fundy: Changes frequently; call for current version.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 12 Feb 96 18:55:00
EID:5ca1 204c96e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214397
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Michael Hardy <=-
JH>> I couldn't figure out what I had done to deserve being
JH>> compared to you.
MH> I would take being compared to you to be a compliment. Of all
MH> the atheists here, you are one of only a few who can make points
MH> without resorting to insults. (Most of the time.) If there any
MH> atheists that a Christian can, in good conscience, look to as a
MH> role model in any sense, you are one of the few.
JH> You want something from me... I can tell.
JH> The only thing that might place me in a minority here in the echo is
JH> I don't feel any animosity towards belief systems. I don't feel any
JH> obligation to "respect" them either, but I feel it would be a waste
JH> of emotional energy to work my self up to a point of an ALL CAPS
JH> SCREAMING RAGE over them.
And that does, indeed, set you apart.
JH> I also have a grasp upon a concept that has eluded you, Jesse Jones
JH> and Jim Staal (among others): it's real easy to become a crashing
JH> bore in this medium. If you have a legitimate beef with a user (lets
JH> use Fred Rice as a somewhat less than hypothetical example), state
JH> your case publicly and then MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE. Harping on a
JH> single issue month after month with thousands of messages simply
JH> insures that your posts will be ignored by most.
You make a good point; however, we are frequently faced with
antagonists who will accuse us of evasion if we fail to answer the same
question each of the 100 times it is asked.
You're right, though.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 12 Feb 96 18:57:00
EID:c943 204c9720
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214398
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> The universe was created to glorify God. Not (mostly) for our benefit.
MH> What egotism leads you to assume that the existence of God means that
MH> everything in the universe would be for our direct benefit?
RB> MY egotism? MY egotism?!?! _I_ think we evolved from a
RB> drooling, hairy primate. YOU think we were created in
RB> the image of the creator of the universe. And you have
RB> the GALL to speak of MY egotism?
However, you also seem to think that if a God *did* exist, the universe
would be completely man-centered. You, among others, have said that you
take the fact that much of the universe appears to be lifeless, and has
little direct effect on us, to be evidence that it was not designed.
To which I say: Yes, the universe is much more vast than it needs to be
for our direct benefit. So what?
And that's where egotism comes in -- why should you assume that God, if
God existed, would NOT have created a vast universe, for reasons that
may have nothing to do with humanity whatsoever?
... Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: haggis vs. food
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:10:00
EID:3a63 204c9940
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214399
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> According to Monty Python's Big Red Book, "The Scottish people consider
MH> haggis not only a delicacy, but actually fit for human consumption."
KW> Well, you *can* eat it. But this Scot would have to be pretty hungry
KW> now that I'm old enough not to be bullied over it. As for Scots
KW> delicacies, ever had stoved potatoes? Or venison mincemeat?
Can't say as I have. Are they good?
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:11:00
EID:f760 204c9960
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> SA> Nope. I'm serious. I used to support Dole, but he's become a
MH> SA> bit too moderate since deciding to run for the presidency again.
MH> SA> He's compromising his ideals in exchange for votes
MH> SA> (like most politicians). Gramm spells out his precise intentions.
MH> I heard Gramm speak a few weeks ago when the Southern Republican
MH> Leadership Conference was held here. I was impressed.
KW> If you and Styx want Gramm, you can most certainly have him. Texas
KW> has outdone herself with sleazy politicians lately, what with him and
KW> the Bushs. But, I don't think that you'd want him long if you got him.
I don't especially want Gramm; I just disliked him less in person than
I thought I would. The problem with the election this year is that
there is nobody that I DO want among the candidates. I voted for
Clinton in 92 and have been tremendously disappointed, so there's no
way I can vote for him again. But among the R's, Dole is a windsock,
blowing whichever way he thinks the voters want him to, and I can't
vote for someone like that. Gramm and Forbes are both too focused on
the economy, which is important but not the sole issue for the
President to face. And none of the other Republicans seem to have a
chance of winning. (Not that there are any among the also-rans that I
really like either.)
Makes me want to move to Toronto or Grandville or some other foreign
place.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: legend
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:15:00
EID:d903 204c99e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> At most, that gives 10-12 years for myth-makers to create an entire
set
MH> of supernatural happenings centered around a recently dead local
MH> person, AND invent an entire cast of supporting characters, many of
MH> whom were portrayed as still alive and present, and somehow make people
MH> believe the myth.
KW> Mike, they didn't invent the supernatural happenings. They borrowed
KW> them from other beliefs then existent. There is very little original
KW> in the Christ myth cycle.
Regardless. There's simply not enough time for them to ascribe
miraculous events -- whatever the source -- and have them believed.
From the perspective of the very first hearers, the evangelists
weren't saying these things about someone who lived a century ago
thousands of miles away, but less than a decade ago right here. And the
others involved -- Peter, John, James, etc. -- should still be alive
and right here in Jerusalem. Kind of hard to claim the disciples were
fictional characters, in light of that fact.
MH> Furthermore, scholars have dated the composition of the three synoptic
MH> gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) within a range of a.d. 40 to a.d. 80
MH> or so, with liberal scholars opting for later dates and conservative
MH> scholars opting for earlier ones, in most cases. John's gospel is
MH> variously dated anywhere from a.d. 60 to a.d. 100.
KW> This sounds more like half a century than the figure of 10-12 years
KW> that you gave me above. A half a century is plenty of time for a
KW> legend to get started, especially if you have vigorous proselytizers
KW> pushing it.
Did you miss something? My first point dealt with Paul's letters. The
earliest of those were written within 10-12 years of Jesus's death. And
since they were written to established communities of believers,
obviously the beliefs must have existed for some time prior to the
letters being written.
The letters of Paul portray a Jesus who is very much miraculous, in
that he rose from the grave and was God in human flesh. There's no
evidence of the development of legend.
MH> Even at the latest dates, though, a maximum of fifty years passes
MH> between Jesus's death and the completion of all three synoptic
MH> gospels. Because the gospels were first used by existing faith
MH> communities, the material in them must be older than the final
MH> written versions.
KW> Oh, yes. Probably most of the material in them pre dates the alleged
KW> birth of the Christ.
Can you support that claim with some actual evidence? I'm giving you
dates and specifics, and you're countering with vague claims.
... Don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: maria russell
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:24:00
EID:37de 204c9b00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I would like you to know that her position -- at least, as you portray
MH> it, is NOT what the Bible advocates. The one passage which those who
MH> would dominate women use as justification actually says that men and
MH> women in a marriage are BOTH supposed to be subject to one another.
MH> (I'll quote it at the end of the post, for your reference.)
MH> What happens is that abusive men start reading after the summary
MH> sentence, and then stop reading halfway through the passage. Paul
MH> writes first that both should submit to each other. Then he
MH> elaborates, saying that a married woman -- and the passage applies only
MH> to marriage, not any other relationship -- should submit to her
MH> husband, but also that the husband should love his wife
MH> self-sacrifically and with holiness. A man who truly loves his wife
MH> with self-sacrifice and holiness is not going to exploit her
MH> submissiveness by abusing her.
KW> Mike, do you have any idea of how often abuse is presented as an act
KW> of love? Especially the more subtle forms of abuse? "If I didn't love
KW> you so much, you couldn't make me so mad." "I love you to much to ever
KW> let you go."
As I said, real love won't do that. And abusers can always find some
justification for their abuse.
KW> So we get to submit in exchange for love. Love the woman as yourself
KW> while you practise a faith that asks self-loathing as the cost of a
KW> ticket to salvation.
MH> The picture Paul paints is mutual submission. In an ideal marriage,
MH> each partner is focused on the other first, not the self. This fosters
MH> a dual benefit -- each partner has their needs met, out of the other's
MH> love, not out of selfishness. The man and woman are both learning
MH> and growing in the art of giving to others -- to one another.
KW> With the woman paying in submission and receiving back 'love'. Why
KW> does it not say that the man will submit to his wife, and return she
KW> will love him?
The very first phrase of the passage is "Submit to one another."
Apparently, you missed it just like abusive men do.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:26:00
EID:9481 204c9b40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I don't. I *believe* it to be true. It's an integral part of my
MH> worldview. I can't demonstrate it to an unbeliever, and wouldn't
MH>claim to.
BK> What do you beleive with regards to reincarnation?
I don't believe in reincarnation, but I did in a previous life. :)
Cheers!
... I'm not religious. I just love the Lord.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:28:00
EID:575d 204c9b80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> For a more reasonable example, if I wrote a story about Ronald
MH>Reagan's presidency, and invented a fictional vice-president and
MH>cabinet members, and claimed that Reagan championed big government
MH>social programs and zeroing out the defense budget, and tried to
MH>pass it off as fact, would it hold up under scrutiny in 1996?
BK> Not bad...get to work on it. Perhaps, in 2000 years, it will be
BK> *just* as sacred a document as your Bible, and people will be
BK> defending it as whole heartedly as you are defending *your* particular
BK> myths. Throw a few translations in there, and see what that does for
BK> you book, as well:).
However, no one would believe it today. Yet, for your purposes in
picking up this argument, you have to assume that people in a.d. 40
accepted an even more farfetched story about someone who had just died
in a.d. 33, who lived in the same place they did and that they may have
even known personally.
MH> Not and get people who lived through the time and in the place they
MH> were about to believe them.
BK> What makes you so sure people of the time beleived them? Perhaps,
BK> given enough time,
ROFL! Because every piece of available evidence corroborates the fact
that they did, and none refutes it. Nero was burning Christians by the
early 60s a.d., so obviously people had believed it for some time
before then.
MH> has been soundly debunked among scholars, and only a few eccentrics
MH> would give it any currency today.
BK> Really? Do tell...your scholars (funny how they always seem to show
BK> up when you need them) state that the Jesus story is absolutley
BK> original, and unlike the other myths of the day?
Is that what I said? No, it isn't. Of course there may be some vague
similarities -- Jesus had two eyes, Mithra had two eyes ... Jesus had
one liver, Mithra had one liver -- but they really don't amount to much
when examined closely.
Whenever there are strong parallels between Christianity and some
mystery religion, the evidence always indicates that Christianity was
around first, and any borrowing of ideas went the opposite direction
from what you'd like to think.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: scientists
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:44:00
EID:8660 204c9d80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> MH> Note that all of these have their credentials from secular
MH> MH> universities. I would say they are all legitimate scientists who
MH> MH> believe a Creator is necessary, or at least a viable hypothesis,
MH> MH> to explain our existence.
MH> BK> Yet you describe most as Christians...Certainly you mean
MH> BK> "scientists who believe the Christian God is necessary..."
MH> I mean what I said.
BK> So, none of them have stated that *your* god is the "necessary
BK> Creator"? Let's not equivocate now, Mike. How many have them
BK> provided evidence, not only for the existence of a creator, but
BK> evidence that it is *your* creator, in addition to evidence that none
BK> of the other "creators" exist?
I said what I meant.
MH> MH> Unless you want to assert that their conclusion to that effect
MH> MH> automatically disqualifies them. Which is simply a case of
MH> MH> picking the arrows you like and drawing a target around them,
MH> MH> defining the arrows other as misses simply because you don't
MH> MH> like what they hit.
MH> BK> Puhleeze! You must admit this undermines their credibility just
MH> BK> a tad...
MH> Why? Dogamtically insisting that no god is possible strikes you as
MH> "objective?"
BK> I'm sorry. I have not come across any authors of scientific texts
BK> that have felt that was important to the subject of the text to
BK> include any regard for the supernatural, positive or negative. I've
BK> not read "Gravity is the reason things seem to fall to the earth, no
BK> gods are required". So, it came as a surprise to me that your
BK> scientists were doing so. I would not regard as credible *any*
BK> "scientist" who discusses things *outside* of this universe...that's
BK> hardly being objective. Or did your "creator" create the universe
BK> from within the universe? Try the ranch dressing...
Try reading some of their books, instead of criticizing something you
know nothing about.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: dieting deities
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:47:00
EID:f4c7 204c9de0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> hehe. 'Zactly. That was the only point I was making. ;)
LB> But as long as we're chatting about Saul -- he never met the guy, and
LB> was prone to be as zealous in his version of Christian theology as he
LB> ever claimed
LB> to be against it. Jesus never called himself a Diety or Deity or even
LB> God.
MH> Do you believe Jesus was the incarnation of God, Lynda?
LB> Yes. The creedal statement is that he was fully God and fully man.
LB> I also acknowledge that my belief in the incarnation is based on
LB> theology as formulated primarily by Paul -- and he never knew Jesus
in
LB> life, was prone to be zealous in his formulation of theology, and Jesus
LB> himself was never recorded
LB> in the gospels as declaring himself to be God. If Paul's statements
LB> were all deleted from the Bible, the doctrine of Jesus as God in the
LB> flesh would be almost completely eliminated.
Hm. I don't really agree with that. Granted, Jesus never said "I am
God." (Although "I and the Father are one," comes pretty close.)
However, he did make it clear that he was not just an ordinary Josh.
Jesus seems to have preferred to let people figure out who he was, as
when he asked Peter "Who do you say that I am?" Yet he did announce
himself as someone out of the ordinary as, for example, is related in
Luke 4:17-21:
The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it,
he found the place where it is written:
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to
preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for
the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the
oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat
down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and
he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your
hearing."
LB> Now, why do you ask -- was there any part of the first statement I
LB> made that you consider to be false?
I asked because I was curious.
LB> I can maintain my belief while
LB> still looking dead on at the facts as they are presented by taking a
LB> hard look at scripture. Can you, or must they be ignored if they are
LB> uncomfortable to you?
I would never ignore the truth, whether I liked it or not. I haven't
quite figured out just what you think the truth to be, as regards the
gospel accounts of Jesus's life, except that you think the birth
narratives are myth -- therefore I don't know whether I agree with your
opinion of what the truth is.
And whenever I try to ask you for your opinion, as I just did, I get
the impression that you suspect it's a challenge or criticism rather
than a simple, unloaded question.
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:56:00
EID:f424 204c9f00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> but your "brother" IS "that way"?
LB> Jim, quit hiding. It's pointless.
MH> Psst. He's not Jim. This much I know for sure.
LB> How? I'm serious -- I'd really like to know for sure. He got me with
LB> Lon -- I always accepted Lon as a seperate person. I have tried to
LB> deal with Mark as seperate, but I have doubts. If you could put those
LB> to rest, I would appreciate it.
Dave Oosterman, who knows Jim personally (they live in the same town),
confirmed that Mark Staal is a different person.
... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Offensive ASCIIs
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:58:00
EID:47ff 204c9f40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about Offensive ASCIIs:
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Damien Wellman <=-
DW> Don't blame me... I only found it. I'll try to work on it a little
DW> myself and see if I can't shape it up, so to speak.
LB>
LB> I've never tried doing an ASCII drawing before, but how does this
LB> look:
LB>
MH> Like a suck-up to the heathens? (JOKE!!!)
LB> (G) Well, that's better than a blimp! Of course, I happen to find the
LB> Darwin fish hysterical -- and since I've never understood why evolution
LB> should be held contrary to Christianity..... ;)
I saw the blimp remark -- wish I'd thought of it. :)
... Don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: those noms du smoke
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:59:00
EID:c1a8 204c9f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> He's not Lump. Dave Oosterman has confirmed for me that Lump really
MH> is Mark Staal.
JB>
JB> That may be true, but can Dave tell you for sure that it really IS
JB> Mark posting here under his own name...or Jim using Mark's name as
JB> another alias? And would Mark admit to it if that were the case?
Hmmmm ... I don't know about that. However, Jim and Mark's styles are
not identical, and I don't think Jim is that skilled an impersonator. I
can usually tell it's him no matter what the name is, and "Lump" sounds
different.
JB> There really is a Lon Mabon (minus the 'S'), too. He is a bigot who
JB> believes that capital punishment should be used for gays, just because
JB> they are gay, female adulterers should be stoned and children killed
JB> for sassing their parents. Maybe you didn't know that? Why did you
JB> think the choice of that particular name is offensive to EVERYBODY with
JB> the exception of other extreme right wing bigots? Anyone who would
JB> chose to use that name must know what it stands for.
I knew there was a real Lon Mabon, but didn't know anything about him.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: legend
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:01:00
EID:7405 204ca020
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
KD> On (09 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> But what we don't have is any evidence that people who knew Arthur
MH> personally believed the legends less than 10 years later.
MH> But we do have evidence that people who knew Jesus personally believed
MH> he really rose from the dead, and that no significant amount of time
MH> elapsed before this belief developed.
KD> No such evidence. We have 15th hand accounts.
Ample evidence. Paul's earliest letters were written in the late 40s,
a.d. They were written to established communities of believers as far
away as Rome, so obviously the belief must have existed for some time
before the letters were written.
Paul's letters, even the earliest ones, have a fully developed
Christology with Jesus as the risen savior. There's no evidence
whatsoever that any Christian groups existed that *didn't* hold this
belief.
Therefore, the belief that Jesus had risen from the grave developed
very rapidly, at MOST within a few years, and in the very place and
among the very people who had known him in the flesh.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: Worrell
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:05:00
EID:1633 204ca0a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Oosterman to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> The MWS concert was excellent, BTW.
DO> I'll grab the CD manana...
Good. I expect a full report ...
MH> And what are you doing here? I thought you just lurked. :)
DO> You looked like you could use a hand. ;-)
Hey, I'm a married man! ;-)
... Atheist reaching orgasm: "Oh chance! Oh random!!!! Yes!! Yes!!!"
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Staal shows his colon
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:48:35
EID:22ec 204bae00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b1f73bee
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311b9658
On (09 Feb 96) Don Martin wrote to Marilyn Burge...
DM> How are you surviving the water? On high ground, one hopes?
DM> The people we see being evacuated on the TV news DO seem to
DM> be the types who can afford waterfront--in this country
DM> misfortunes become tragedies when they happen to somebody
DM> pulling down more than $75 K.
We are definitely on high ground (and low rent) real estate. We
went from -30-to--35 with windchill factor last week to around 60
this week. Is it any wonder we flooded? I took the MAX
(Metropolitan Area Express) train downtown Friday night, and I
must say, even in Portland where the Willamette didn't officially
spill its banks, it was quite a sight to behold. The last time I
remember anything approaching this level of destruction was during
the Vanport Flood of 194(8?), and, of course, there was much less
population density then, so you can't really compare the two.
Plus, we have spendy homes sliding off the West Hills from the
erosion. Why is it the rich insist on building in the two worst
places: on riverbanks and hillsides? I guess if you can afford the
price of the land, the price of the insurance is a minor
inconvenience.
... Fundamentalist : (n) Ape like creature with a bible.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: INFORMATION
|Date: 11 Feb 96 22:06:46
EID:d95f 204bb0c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 59ca6147
On (10 Feb 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Hector Plasmic...
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Styx Allum <=-
HP> "You have the right to think for yourself. If you cannot or will not
HP> think, the court will appoint a religion for you."
JB> I'm wondering if the present ban of discussion of abortion on the net
JB> will also apply to the fundy position on the subject.
I can almost wish I had an Internet account so I could use myself
as a test case for some of this shit.
... A man drove me to drink. I never properly thanked him.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Hey, i'm new
|Date: 11 Feb 96 22:17:41
EID:e03d 204bb220
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7395332c
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311b965b
On (09 Feb 96) Don Martin wrote to LES WILCOX...
DM> As Diogenes walked away in disgust, LES WILCOX said "Hey,
DM> i'm new" to NORBERT SYKES, adding:
NS> Rather than trying to make others jump through hoops, poothead (G),
why
NS> don't _you_ capture the opening screen and show it to us? BTW, who
mad
NS> _you_ (poothead) the moderator around here?
LW> I have a better idea. If you're so worried about it why don't you
LW> send me the 50 bucks and I'll register the thang.
DM> Another splendid demonstration of your integrity. And we
DM> keep getting accused of making up this sort of shit about
DM> Christians to make them look bad.
Should I assume your answer is "no"?
... Fundamentalist : (n) Ape like creature with a bible.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: David Robins
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 11 Feb 96 22:19:13
EID:a210 204bb260
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 8ff6260f
REPLY: 1:247/312.0 311d3fb8
On (08 Feb 96) David Robins wrote to Roland...
DR> ___ Quoting Roland to ALL re dinosaurs? on 01 Feb 96 15:28:40
Ro> I am a christain.. And i believe most of the Christian ideas. But i
Ro> have on question....
DR> 1) So am I, but you'll get no help in this conference as it's purpose
DR> is _anti_Christian.
Ro> In Genesis 1:24 God created all animals on the earth..and later that
Ro> day he created man. In his image...
DR> I think it was a different day?
Ro> But scientist have proven that there was 65 million years between the
Ro> death of the dinosaurs and the beginning of man....
DR> Not proven conclusively.
Ro> Did God create dinosaurs at the same time as man? Or did God create
Ro> dinosaurs before that, perhaps as his first try at a living world..then
Ro> realize that the dinosaurs were incapable of worshiping him and destroy
Ro> them...Then 65 million years later create man.
DR> The "Taylor trail" is a recently discovered path that shows a human
DR> track running through a dinosaur track. That and other evidence,
DR> samples, etc. seem to indicate that man and dinosaur did once
DR> co-exist. I forget the name of the lead scientist in that discovery
DR> but I can find it if you want.
You are talking about the Paluxy tracks. They've been so thoroughly
debunked that even the fundies are embarrassed by any claims that
they are real.
... The worst thing about censorship is лллллллллл and it лллллллллллллл!!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 0
|Date: 11 Feb 96 23:14:14
EID:259b 204bb9c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 dbef45c4
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 311da829
On (10 Feb 96) Sue Armstrong wrote to Judith Bandsma...
SA> And Brave Sir Judith ran away, screaming "ONE LAST COMMENT 0"!
JB> Don't feel bad. There is an old Quaker cemetery in downtown
JB> Charleston. They built a hotel over it and put a plaque up to show
JB> where it had been. I should say IS. They didn't move the bodies.
SA> I see the makings of a new genre of horror film - instead of the
SA> building being haunted because it's over a 5,000 year Indian
SA> burial ground, have it be haunted because it's over a Quaker
SA> burial ground. :)
SA> Though somehow, I can't imagine Quakers haunting anyone. I keep
SA> getting imagaes of that guy on the oatmeal box going "Boo!"
"Back off before thou bump into one of my bullets."
... A cynic smells the flowers & looks for the casket!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Don Ward
|To:
|Sub: CPu parts
|Date: 12 Feb 96 06:16:04
EID:86d0 204c3200
MSGID: 1:388/14.0 311f2f84
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
I have a Intel 386dx 25MHZ motherboard with math co-proccesser. I"ll take
$30.00 dollars for it...
Prov 15:2 The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the
fool gushes folly.
* Wave Rider 1.33 # 761 *
---
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 10 Feb 96 18:38:00
EID:5eb4 204a94c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB47
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>> Actually, since they died while they were still innocent, they're
MH>> enjoying eternity in heaven and probably have no complaints. In fact,
MH>> since God's judgment kept them from growing up to adopt the evil ways
MH>> of their parents, they're probably very grateful.
HP> Didn't see the original. I hope you were kidding. If not, you're
HP> exemplifying the sort of xtian attitude that leads to the conclusion
HP> that it's okay to kill the heathen (or anybody else you like) --
HP> they'll be so grateful to you, after all (or go to their just
HP> punishment, and screw 'em).
HP> Were you serious, Mikey?
I'm frustrated with atheists who take a self-righteous tone and
proclaim the Christian God unworthy of their worship, because a loving
God "would not" do whatever it is they think they're informed enough to
know a loving God would not do.
This response was intentionally written to show the arrogance of such
an attitude by applying the same approach to the opposite point of
view.
In fact, I don't have a cut-and-dried explanation for why God is
portrayed in the Old Testament as occasionally championing the
destruction of entire cities, including the presumably innocent
children. I do believe that God will prove to be right and righteous no
matter what the answer turns out to be -- that he did save the
innocent, or that he never ordered the destruction of cities at all,
and the Israelites claimed their own political goals were "God's will,"
or some other alternative.
So no, I did not intend my response to be a serious answer to the
challenge. The issue is complex enough and serious enough to deserve a
far more exhaustive examination than could be done in this format.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: belief
|Date: 10 Feb 96 22:27:00
EID:9a37 204ab360
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB48
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>> Don't ask me for evidence of this; it is an article of faith.
MH>> You either believe it or you don't.
HP> You've been on a roll, haven't you, Mikey? If we don't believe it
HP> (and even you admit there's no _reason_ to believe it), it's rather
HP> obvious that we're also not going to buy any conclusions you base on
HP> that little unevidenced "article of faith," isn't it?
Then don't. I was asked what I believe, and I answered. I don't care
if you agree or not.
But I didn't say there's no reason to believe it; I said it can't be
proven to a materialist with a closed mind.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: scientists
|Date: 10 Feb 96 18:47:00
EID:3faf 204a95e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB49
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Michael Hardy <=-
SS>> Straw argument. No one is questioning the fact that many
SS>> scientists, christians, muslims and jews have religious beliefs.
MH> All of the scientists I named do argue that a supernatural Creator
MH> figures into the existence of the universe and the origin of life,
MH> and they offer what they consider scientific evidence for same.
MH> You should read some of their books.
SS> Tell me what evidence they offer to support the conclusion of a
SS> creator.
SS> Please be specific and be kind enough to separate their religious
SS> beliefs from real science.
Read the books. I have no desire to spend my time trying to
summarize what adds up to several thousand pages of material. If you're
interested, you'll read the books, or at least one or two of them. If
you're not interested enough to do that, then I'm not interested in
spoon-feeding you.
SS>> How about a scientific theory of creationism? Have any of these
SS>> esteemed individuals offered a scientific theory of creationism?
SS>> If not, why not?
MH> It depends on how you define "creationism." If you mean the theory
MH> that God poofed the universe into existence over six days 10,000 years
MH> ago, then no. If you mean the idea that God is ultimately the author
MH> of the universe, through whatever variety of natural processes, then
MH> yes, all of them do.
SS> They do? I'm sure that Hector and other had posted to you numerous
SS> times what is required of a scientific theory. Are their theories
SS> falsifiable? Do they show a mechanism for creation?
Read the books.
SS> It sounds like they don't have scientific theories, only religious
SS> beliefs.
SS> This takes me back to one of my original questions, i.e., do you
SS> Michael Hardy know the differnece between science and religious belief?
Yes, I do. I also know the difference between an interested skeptic and
a smug unbeliever.
... Thanks for your opinion. I hope I can get it off my shoe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: YHWH
|Date: 10 Feb 96 18:50:00
EID:b317 204a9640
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Michael Hardy <=-
SS>> You can't have it both ways, Mikey.
MH> God makes us responsible for alleviating suffering. He allows it to
MH> continue because *we* should be trying to relieve it. It's part of
MH> the purpose of our life on earth, part of how we choose whether to
MH> love God or not.
MH> Makes perfect sense to me.
SS> Please outline for me exactly how to relieve the suffering of the
SS> Ebola virus. Thanks.
You could have made the same point about polio not much more than half
a century ago. And yet people who cared enough to work at it managed to
do that, didn't they?
We already know enough about how Ebola is spread that we could keep
anyone else from ever getting it, if our society as a whole cared
enough to build modern sanitary medical facilities in African nations
and staff them with nurses and doctors who knew what they were doing.
... Tagline deleted -- Nothing funny about this.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: evidence
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:37:00
EID:ba1d 204aaca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Jim Staal <=-
RS> You demanding evidence?
JS> Correct. Problem? I hear this 'death cult' stuff all the time and
JS> yet not one atheist/pagan can come up with one shred of evidence to
JS> support it.
RS> We have presented you with plenty of evidence. You just chose to
RS> _ignore_ it.
ROFL! What evidence?
What I've heard boils down to this:
1. Christianity is based on the death of its central figure.
2. Christians have perpetrated some atrocities in world history.
The rebuttals to both of these are easy.
1. A half-truth. Christianity is based on the death AND RESURRECTION
TO ETERNAL LIFE of its central figure.
2. Tragically true, but demonstrably OPPOSED to the original core
teachings of the faith. Atrocities perpetrated in the name of Christ
are in clear violation of Christ's teachings. Just because someone
claims to be acting "in the name of Jesus" doesn't mean anything. If
someone shot a Klansman "in the name of Martin Luther King," would
followers of King -- and his insistence on non-violent resistance -- be
responsible?
... NO CARRIER... A naval aviator's worst nightmare ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: death
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:43:00
EID:92f4 204aad60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Michael Hardy <=-
SS>> Mikey, you are crumbling from the base, are you not? Thousands
SS>> of years of observations of MILLIONS of deaths have rendered the
SS>> unshakable conclusion that when you die, that's all there is.
MH> They've done no such thing. All we know from observation is that once
MH> the body dies, it -- the body -- remains dead.
SS> Yes, the body which includes EVERYTHING, dies and rots. Do you have
SS> evidence of anything ELSE? You have a very bad habit, Michael. You
SS> keep projecting UNEVIDENCED things to prop up other UNEVIDENCE things.
SS> A simple case in point is right below in your words.
MH> The Christian idea of
SS> A christian BELIEF, supported by....your christians belief? Where is
SS> your evidence, Mikey?
It's a chain of reasoning, really. The evidence is good that the
earliest followers of Jesus believed him to be divine and to have risen
from the grave. I find the arguments in this regard to be persuasive.
I can find no plausible explanation for this belief except that it's
true. And because I hold no a priori rejection of the idea of a
God, I have no reason to insist that there *must* be a naturalistic
explanation.
Because I consider the case for Jesus's divine nature to be strong,
I accept what Jesus taught about, among other things, life after
death. I have no *direct* evidence of it, but there is evidence of the
truth of the claims about Jesus, and that validates the teachings *of*
Jesus.
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:47:00
EID:e8bb 204aade0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Andrew Masten <=-
AM>> Paul Davies " The laws of physics seem themselves to be a
AM>> product of exceedingly ingenious design"
KDM>> So?
AM> If we are here by design, the logical inference is a
AM> designer.
MG> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild assed guess
MG> by some scientist?
A whole host of scientists, actually, including some -- such as Davies
-- who held no particular theistic belief as they discovered the
intricate design of the universe.
I suspect this is like one of those Magic Eye pictures -- you either
see it or you don't. (Although people who don't may yet, if they keep
trying.)
... The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: importance
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:49:00
EID:b220 204aae20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Scot Bear to Andrew Masten <=-
> This is exactly why I wrote this in my original post. I
> said nothing about
> God. I'm contending for creation, without any reference
> to who the creator
> might be. What point would it serve, if you deny a creator
> to begin with.
SB>
SB> To put it simply, Andy, I, and many other people don't CARE where we
SB> came from. We are just happy (for the most part) to BE.
SB>
SB> I know, in my case, I just don't feel a compelling need to know the
SB> origin of the universe. This knowledge has no bearing on my life one
SB> way or the other.
The existence or non- of a God certainly does. It's the most important
question anyone can ever explore. And if you think it's unimportant,
it's because you think it's already answered in the negative.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: conformists
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:51:00
EID:d178 204aae60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
JH> I can't see the appeal in it myself. While I am by no means a
JH> conformist (ha! no one admits to being one) I do find there are
JH> advantages to anonymity and the ability to fade into a crowd.
I saw a comic strip -- may have been in Mad Magazine -- that really
spoke to this. It's a middle-aged man talking to his teenaged son. (I
don't recall the dialogue verbatim, but I can get the point across.)
Man: Why did you shave your head?
Son: All my friends were doing it.
Man: Why are you wearing ripped jeans?
Son: It's the style.
Man: Why did you pierce your nostril?
Son: I saw it in a movie.
Man: Why do you do these weird things?
Son: To be different.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: Re: in His own image
|Date: 10 Feb 96 22:32:00
EID:ddb2 204ab400
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB50
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Scot Bear to Jose Gomez <=-
> He keeps watch over ME and MY FAMILY. Maybe you
> should talk to
> Him about YOUR life. He's pretty good about taking in new
> sons.
SB>
SB> Oh, SHUT UP! What crap!
SB>
SB> I, too was a believer and was even planning on going for the
SB> priesthood. Your god kept such good care of me that I found myself
SB> QUITE ALONE at the age of 17 due to the fact that both my parents died
SB> in a car crash.
SB> I hope things are well in YOUR family but *I* had to finish school and
SB> get a job to support myself because I, a believer, didn't have such
SB> godly-protection.
SB>
SB> Just go away...
I'm sorry to hear about your parents. My father died when I was 25 (he
was only 52) which I realize isn't the same, but I do have some measure
of empathy for you.
I don't think that it's fair to blame God for it though, or turn your
back on God because of it. I find nothing in the Bible that guarantees
smooth sailing and easy lives for believers. My wife believes, and yet
she sits in a wheelchair, crippled with MS. Billy Graham certainly
believes, yet he has Parkinson's disease.
As long as we live in this fallen world, Scot, we're not promised any
special protection. I don't claim to understand all the reasons why,
but it seems evident that things must play out as they will.
Remember, as a believer, you must have understood that this life is but
a vapor. "A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, and
signifying nothing." It is what comes after this life that really
counts.
If your parents were believers, then they live forever in heaven. And
if you accept God's grace, then you will too. And it seems likely that
after 10,000 years in heaven, the decades you lived without them here
won't seem all that important.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm NOT trivializing it. There are times I miss
my father terribly and wish I could tell him something, or ask his
advice on something. The loss is real, and at times it's palpable.
But think of it from the perspective God sees it -- eternity. God has
never abandoned you, Scot, and never will unless you wish Him to. But
there's no guarantee of an easy road from cradle to grave.
... Tagline deleted -- Nothing funny about this.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: treatise
|Date: 11 Feb 96 00:16:01
EID:5786 204b0200
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB51
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-> MH> Plenty. The whole point is that God became a man and did endure
-> MH> suffering. You don't think being scourged and then nailed up woul
-> MH> hurt?
->
-> Since you're still spewing this line, allow me to reintroduce my litt
-> treatise upon the "suffering" of your God.
->
-> Since we know that the universe is some 15 billion years or less old,
-> I will use this as a starting figure. Please note that if God has
-> existed longer than this, it merely makes your "suffering" argument
-> even sillier.
->
-> So. 15 billion years. Now, let's suppose, for the sake of argument,
-> that J.C. was nailed to the cross and hung there for, oh, three days.
-> Let's do some math.
->
-> 15 billion years * 356 days / year = 5.475 * 10^12 days. Now, to
-> convert 3 days to a percentage of this, as I recall, we would
-> divide 3 by this figure and multiply by 100. That give us a
-> value of: 5.47945.... * 10^-11 percent.
->
-> Okay. So that's the percentage of one's life which, if spent
-> suffering, you seem to consider significant.
->
You're judging it based purely on quantity. That misses the point
entirely.
A perfectly holy and sinless being allowed much of the sin and evil that
would ever be committed in the world to be placed on his shoulders.
That is an immeasureable sacrifice. The amount of time he spent
suffering physical pain is absolutely irrelevant.
However, given the snide tone of this post and others, it's obvious you
made up your mind and nailed it shut long ago. Therefore, I'm not going
to waste any significant amount of *my* time arguing with you about it.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Violating physics
|Date: 12 Feb 96 12:02:49
EID:af71 204c6040
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 ad15a080
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 11804214
On 10 Feb 96, Steve Rose wrote:
JB> Yours is the "mind reading" form, in which
JB> you presume to know what the content of another person's mind is.
SR> In this instance, Fredric is making TWO mistakes. The second is
SR> assuming there is a mind to be read from.
In Freddie's case, _either_ assumption would be a mistake, for the same
reason noted.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: thinking
|Date: 11 Feb 96 02:59:09
EID:822e 204b1760
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020ad5
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
BRAD JACKSON spoke thusly to FREDRIC RICE:
BJ> FR> It would probably help you to think for yourself, you know.
BJ>
BJ>Hi Fredric!
BJ> Well, Fredric I would like to pose a question to you!
BJ> Would you say that there are more people in this world that
BJ> don't believe in God?
More then Fred? Yeah. I'm one of them.
... I was sane once. Didn't particularly care for the experience.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: churches
|Date: 11 Feb 96 17:30:10
EID:3e87 204b8bc0
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020ae6
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> PS>people might have still given at least lip service to choosing a
PS> PS>mate with good genetic qualities, that may have served a purpose.
PS> PS>But now, when the emphasis is so much more on looks than quality,
PS> PS>it's become kind of an evolutionary nightmare.
PS>
PS> KDM> Makes sense to me. I'd prefer intelligence over looks any day,
PS> KDM> though.
PS>
PS>You and me both, but how many like-minded others of the opposite sex
PS>do you think there are out there?
Few, very few. And all the intelligent ones seem to date scum.
PS>(Before any of you female types
PS>starts bashing me, stop to consider that whatever the aforementioned
PS>number is, I'm sure that the male equivalent is far less.)
Much less, definitely. Now that I think about it, almost none of my
friends have valued intelligence over beauty, at least in potential
mates.
... A belly button is for salt when you eat celery in bed.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Coincidence seven
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:56:11
EID:aa77 204c9f00
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020af7
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> PS>I had an idea about another kind of drive. We all know that
PS> PS>light sails run on light (obviously). What if one used a light
PS> PS>sail twigged to the infrared spectrum and mounted a powerful
PS> PS>infrared lamp on the vessel? Theoretically, if it was powerful
PS> PS>enough, it might push the ship at speeds approaching c, but
PS> PS>certainly not at lightspeed and definitely no faster.
PS>
PS> KDM> Now there's an interesting idea. Hmmmm . . . I can think of a
PS> KDM> few questions, though. First, where would you get the energy
PS> KDM> for the
PS>Could do it the way a conventional light sail does. Stars put out
PS>lots of infrared. Or one might mount a nuclear reactor aboard the
PS>ship (Well shielded, of course).
Yeah, but at that distance?
PS> KDM> be a problem. And thirdly, you'd have to figure out a way to
PS> KDM> bleed off the excess heat from your sail.
PS>
PS>There's that, but the same problem exists for ordinary light sails.
PS>Infrared is just a different frequency of light; the same strength of
PS>ultraviolet might produce just as much heat.
Oh, I know.
JJ pointed out the fatal flaw, though: you're trying to violate the
conservation of momentum. At best, the ship would stay in place, at
worst, it would go backwards.
PS> PS>True. The quantities of mass involved are much smaller, and
PS> PS>although it would initially be *obscenely* expensive, the costs
PS> PS>might level out as the technology progressed.
PS>
PS> KDM> Yes. You'd have to manufacture all of the anti-matter on
PS> KDM> earth, but a matter-anti-matter drive would be much more
PS> KDM> efficient (and, therefore lighter) then any other type of
PS> KDM> drive.
PS>This is also true. I know that anti-matter has been produced (or at
PS>least, I've read that it has) in tiny quantities, certainly not
PS>enough to power a ship with. The technology isn't *that* far away.
It has been. They produced the first anti-atom a few weeks ago.
Problem is, though, you couldn't make it as you went, due to entropy.
... Recursive (r-kr-sv) adj. See "Recursive."
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Door to door missionaries
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:57:12
EID:7064 204c9f20
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020b08
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
FREDRIC RICE spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
FR>kd> A friend claims that when missionaries knock on her door, her
FR>kd> first response is to ask for their address. When they ask why she
FR>kd> wants to know, she says it is so she can visit them to push her
FR>kd> beliefs.
FR>kdm> [Note: I'm gonna try this one]
FR>
FR>Me too. Except that fundy cultists don't come to my door much any
FR>more. }:-}
Gee, I wonder why not?
I don't get any myself. Instead, I get frat boys.
... Actually it's not replying that takes time, it's choosing a tagline.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Judy...judy...judy...
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:58:13
EID:7b79 204c9f40
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020b19
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JUDITH BANDSMA spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JB> KDM> Tell her how big you are, Jim.
JB>
JB>Hey, IF he is that tall, he's only 2 inches taller than Leo. Whoopee.
JB>I've been dealing with Leo from a height of 5'3" for 22 years now.
JB>The extra 2 inches is probably just a bad toupee anyway.
I'm still not sure why Jim's so happy he could intimidate others into
shutting up. Sure, he might shut me up, were we talking face to face.
A man with a gun could do the same thing. That doesn't make what they
are saying right, though.
... "Luke, your mother am I." - Yoda
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Staal shows his colon
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:04:14
EID:bbcb 204ca080
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020b2a
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> PS> This is the most "Christian" thing I've seen you write in
PS> PS>weeks. Did Jesus ever talk to people like that over such trifles?
PS> PS>
PS>
PS> KDM> Ever heard Dennis Leary's version of what would have happened
PS> KDM> if Jesus hadn't been crucicifed?
PS>
PS>No. Do tell.
Certainly. You may be interested in getting his tape, "No Cure for
Cancer." Somehow, Holysmoke becomes all the more fun when he's singing
"I'm an asshole, an asshole, an assholeo" in the background.
That's why I'm glad Jesus died when he did. Oh yeah. Because if he lived
to be 40, he woulda ended up like Elvis, come on! Oh yeah, he had that
big entourage. Twelve guys willing to do whatever he wanted to do. He
was famous already at that point. If he lived to be 40, he'd be walking
around Jerusalem with a big fat beer gut and black side burns going,
"Damn, I'm the son of God. Give me a cheeseburger and french fries right
now. Where's Mary Magdeline, I want a blow job now. Come on now! Fuck
you, I'll turn you into a leper. Give me a cheeseburger now, God
dammit. Love me tender, love me true, empty my colostamy bag! Oh I think
I shit my pants on that last... Change my diaper now!"
I'm going to hell for that bit. And you're all coming with me! And don't
try to get out of it, "We didn't laugh at that bit, Jesus, please!"
"Shut up! Get on the bus with Leary and Scorsese. You're going right to
fucking hell!" And you know what hell is folks. It's Andy Gibb, singing
Shadow Dancing for eons and eons. And you have to wear orange plaid bell
bottoms and sit next to the Bay City Rollers. "How you guys doing? This
is gonna suck!"
... Let me know right away if you don't get this message.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:11:54
EID:1235 204ba960
MSGID: 1:207/212 751670cf
REPLY: 1:271/460 311c6354
On (10 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> So you'de rather have it like the Old Testament? And in a why he does
KM> since Christ is God, just a different form of God. And I didn't say
that
KM> he couldn't just that he doesn't have to. That is why he sent his Son
to
KM> die on the cross, so all we would have to do is accept him and go to
KM> heaven, instead of the way it was in the old testament.
I'd rather some old fashioned honesty, yes, as opposed to a sham.
Pretending to give someone "for our sins" when it isn't a sacrifice in
the first place...
KD> He actually shows himself to Adam and Eve.
KM> And Adam and Eve goofed up, and he could no longer walk with them.
The hero in that story is the serpent, in my book, bringing knowledge to
people. Allegorically, that is the moment we became people.
KM> How else would he have gotten the Ark built or convienced Moses to go
back
KM> to a land where he was wanted for murder?
Funny... Moses states he has a speech impediment. Why does God choose
him?
KM> Could it be that that is just the way it was arranged? Could it be
KM> different styles of writting? Seems to me that by the New Testament,
since
KM> Christ was indeed God, that he was pretty involved with us then, and
KM> according to the Revelation, he will be in the future as well. Maybe
it's
KM> because we have forgotten how to listen?
Sounds like a bunch of lies to me.
KM> But are you looking at the omnipotent being as he is, or trying to measure
KM> him as you think he sould be?
I don't know how he is. The Bible is clearly a bunch of man made fiction.
KM> So you refuse him because he protected his people as he promised? You
KM> refuse him because he wiped out those that would not worship him, and
KM> those that worshipped other gods instead? I don't know what you see,
but
KM> all I see is God doing what he had to do.
God can't convince the world to worship him without wiping them out?
Particularly those who had never heard his rules?
God can't handle people not believing in him?
KM> Tells you to be silent during worship? First off I don't worship God
in
KM> public. I worship God in the privacy of my own home, not while I'm at
KM> church. And I do get my chance to teach the other adults.
You don't worship god at church? Hmmmm I wonder what you're doing then.
YOU get the chance to teach other adults. I don't. You have a Y
chromosome.
KM> Oh really? Who would deserve worship then? God only gave you the air
you
KM> breath, the water you drink and the food that goes into your belly.
A
KM> planet to live on, for that matter life itself. But that doesn't deserve
KM> worship?
No, as a matter of fact.
The food and water and my shelter come from my own labor and that of my
husband.
I don't thank anyone for my life. Not even those whose bodies developed
it. If you want me to hold someone responsible for my life, which has
been a very difficult one, then they owe me. I doubt you'd ever
understand this unless you've been on the brink of suicide. I am not
grateful for life, Ken. I'm just putting up with it.
The air and planet are here. Nobody is entitled to thanks for their
existence. I don't thank someone who puts me someplace that they happen
to have given me the things I need, just like you don't thank a jailer
that he feeds you.
KM> Your parents might have had you, but they didn't create you.
They sacrificed far more than any god for me.
KM> Your parents are not gods, noone should expect you to worship them.
Then why does GOD expect me to worship him?
KD> Why does an omnipotent God need to send a sacrifice in order to
KM> forgive?
KM> I don't know, that is the way it has to be, simply because he said it
was.
Simple minded thinking.
KM> God can forgive, and he has told us how to get that forgiveness. It's
KM> funny there are many here that belittle God because he said to man that
KM> man should not kill, but God himself (who has the right) had to kill
and
KM> it's such a big deal because he did not (not my opinion) follow the
laws
KM> that he gave man. God said that if you sin you must die, and you condemn
KM> him for doing what he said. God said I will sacrifice my Son so that
you
KM> do not have die. I have no idea why there must be the shedding of blood
KM> for sin, I'm not God I am not qualified to tell you why God made it
that
KM> way. All I can say is that that is the way it is, that is what God said
KM> has to be done, so that is the way that it must be.
Sorry, I'm not that gullible.
... I'm more humble than you are!!!
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:25:08
EID:1235 204bab20
MSGID: 1:207/212 8ea69bd3
REPLY: 1:271/460 311c6354
On (10 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> Sin comes down to one thing disobediance. If you did not have sin in
your
KM> life, you would not have even spoken against your mother, and she would
KM> never have given you reason to believe that she physically abused you
as a
KM> child.
If she had not abused me, I would never have had reason to speak against
her.
KM> Maybe you consider jealously a character flaw, I do not. I believe that
it
KM> is a natural feeling that goes right along with love.
You've never seen the destructiveness that comes with it, then. Very
definitely a character flaw. OR a flaw in the relationship.
KD> If he is perfect, then something that is godlike cannot be a
KD> character flaw.
KM> So jealousy must not be a character flaw.
Then why does that non character flaw lead to a good portion of
divorces?
KM> There is no other god.
Then why does he care if we worship them?
KM> You forget that Christ said, "I and my Father are one" They are the
same
KM> being, just different forms of the same being.
Then why is dying on the cross a sacrifice? God doesn't die, so he
didn't die. He just pretended.
KD> BTW - Please consider doing at least the most basic proofreading on
KM> your
KD> messages. The second and third graders I teach would be able to find
KD> your errors.
KM> Fine let them then.
Maybe I will sometime.
... You're an adult if you say "Ren and WHAT?"
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:28:25
EID:4f20 204bab80
MSGID: 1:207/212 39c3b1e9
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Karen Davis...
BJ> You see women do have a role may it be a silent one.
Some wonderful offer. [sarcastic glare].
Not good enough.
... "Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?"
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Larry Sites
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:29:46
EID:91d3 204baba0
MSGID: 1:207/212 a8671677
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 61e3a11f
On (09 Feb 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Karen Davis...
JH> (And that I suspect is the real difference between the two
JH> languages. Dutch is just like German except it has twice
JH> as many vowels.)
They *are* very similar - I can read some Dutch.
... "Then at a deadly pace It Came From Outer Space..."
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: 1 god
|Date: 12 Feb 96 15:33:35
EID:8366 204c7c20
MSGID: 1:207/212 514adc71
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Hector Plasmic...
BJ> You think of me as a foolish man because of my belief in the
BJ> bible and God Jesus Christ? If he doesn't exist why do so many hate
BJ> Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath
BJ> made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Brad, how can God make himself?
And if he's an eternal god, why is 2 or 3 days of suffering [actually
only a few hours, since the story has him taken down from the cross
before sundown friday] any suffering at all compared to even someone
having a headache for half a day?
... Disproving evolution does not prove creation.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 12 Feb 96 15:35:52
EID:4f20 204c7c60
MSGID: 1:207/212 1bf1ba6d
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Dan Ceppa...
BJ> I look into the pages of the bible know that it is true. I pray to
BJ> God and he answers me, I need no more evidence.
I prayed to god that he'd take me out of an abusive home when I still
believed. He didn't.
... A bad day BBSing is better than a good day at work!
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God
|Date: 12 Feb 96 15:36:39
EID:5f5c 204c7c80
MSGID: 1:207/212 21078c7d
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Don Martin...
BJ> get evidence from another sourse?
BJ> eg. If your math teacher showed you that 1 + 1 = 2 why would you
BJ> ask someone else? I would have to say that the math teacher is
BJ> correct and follow that theory, because they showed me it was
BJ> correct.
Any other math teacher would give you the same answer.
You can get evidence of the teacher's credentials.
You can figure the problem out for yourself.
BJ> God gave us his word. So why would I go looking for someone else to
BJ> tell me it is true?
Because there is no independent evidence. No evidence of this teacher's
credentials, no way to find out for yourself. Other teachers [other
religions] give different answers.
... I hit my CTRL key, but I'm still not in control.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: the Bible
|Date: 12 Feb 96 15:39:10
EID:589e 204c7ce0
MSGID: 1:207/212 b2dfc9b0
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Martin Goldberg...
BJ> Tell me why the bible isn't evidence Martin? If you follow it
BJ> and do what is written in it you will get results. So how could
BJ> that not be evidence? If I read a cook book and followed the
BJ> directions I could bake a cake. So if I follow what is in the bible
BJ> I will lead a good life, and go to Heavan.
I have evidence of other people baking cakes by the recipe in a cook
book and coming out with delicious cakes. The result is known. I have
myself experienced a successful cake making. I have not experienced
heaven, and don't care to.
No cook book says that it is the ONLY cook book. I've got 20 or 30
sitting over there. Some of them even have differing recipes for the
same dish that all come out pretty good [though we generally find one we
like best] The Bible claims to be the only one, though I see many many
people living good lives without it or with other books. I challenge you
to find any aspect of my life that is GROSSLY against god's laws except
those of worship and belief. I don't lie, steal, murder, etc. I even
treat the parents who abused me emotionally and physically with respect
now that the abuse has stopped.
The goal in cooking is NOT to need a cook book. My husband rarely uses
one on his best dishes [he does most of the cooking since he's more
creative with it and enjoys it]. He has learned enough to be able to
create his own recipes and still come out with a good dish. Let's just
say that I've decided to make my own recipe for a good life, and I'm
sure it will come out fine in the end.
... What's Title Eye X? - Ronald Reagan
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal's not Quality fundy time
|Date: 05 Feb 96 13:41:06
EID:d5a0 20456d20
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088250
FMPT 1012
FR> Is it just my perception or has the quality of fundy we get
fr> through here declined over the years? It seemed to me that at one
fr> time some fundies could at least formulate a minimal argument to
fr> justify their occultism. Now it seems that they're no longer even
fr> willing to try.
jp> They are just not wasting time on YOU.
FR> But then you believe JFK is sill alive
FR> and will take over the planet with Henry Kissinger.
FR> Your opinions are pretty much easilly ignored.
You're a treasure to me Fred.
Later on, your statements will be ever so useful.
Keep up the good work !
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: RE: SILLY FUNDY CLAIMS
|Date: 05 Feb 96 15:28:42
EID:a444 20457b80
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088253
FMPT 1012
AS> [-----------]
HP> OTOH, we have plenty of evidence that folks are willing to die for
HP> their ideals, don't we, Al? Don't you see the simple explanation
HP> staring you in the blinders, Al? :-)
HP>
AS> Sure, let's try it. "I'm going to tell people I saw Jesus rise again.
AS> Maybe that'll make them believe in Jehovah! Of course, Jehovah did not
AS> approve of lying, and Jesus said the truth will make you free, but
AS> surely God will understand this once. Okay, guys, even if they torture
AS> you, whip you, even try to kill you, you are NEVER to let this slip
AS> your lips. All twelve of you. hey, maybe we can even rope another five
AS> hundred to agree...or spread the RUMOR of it, nobody'll check..." "Uh,
AS> Peter." "Yes, John?" "Don't you think if we claim Jesus rose from the
AS> dead, someone might check the tomb?" "There's that. We need to steal
AS> the body." (Utter silence.) "Peter?" "Yes, John?" "Let me get this
AS> straight. We are going to go against God's and Jesus' principles and
AS> tell a flat out LIE, and try to hoodwink thousands into believing in
AS> God on this incredible story. We are going to assume nobody is going
AS> to come back to Jerusalem to check any of the details. We're probably
AS> going to be tortured, imprisoned, perhaps even killed...but we can't
AS> EVER let it slip what's going on. Even when they are whipping us, or,
AS> say, crucifying us upside-down, or locking us in a cell with rats and
AS> moldy bread. You want us to do all this, on a fantastic LIE that most
AS> people will laugh at? And steal a body...a moldering, decaying,
AS> stinking dead body...to bolster this lie?" "Yes. And travel to distant
AS> ports of call spreading the lie, all without demanding money or
AS> anything." "Um. Pete?" "Yes, John?" "I'm outta here." (THe other ten
AS> disciples follow John's examples.) Peter. "But it WOULD work..."
AS> (Speaking to the empty room.)
Well done.
WBW, John
The NT account,
Jesus really rising from the dead,
is the only plausible explanation.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: A TALE OF 2 CITIES...
|Date: 05 Feb 96 15:41:42
EID:2ccf 20457d20
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088254
FMPT 1012
LB> Are you suggesting they ARE birds? Bats are mammals -- they have fur
LB> and bear live young, rather than lay eggs.
JS> I am not suggesting anything, other than what the Bible says. If it
JS> doesn't say they are not birds somewhere else, there is no
JS> contradiction. That is all...
LB> There is a contradiction with reality, Jim -- it contradicts the
LB> truth. So much for inerrancy.
LB> Now, which is it? Is the Bible inerrant, and bats ARE birds? Or are
LB> bats mammals, and the Bible errs when it departs from theology?
AS> Or could it be the Hebrew word actually means
AS> "beings larger than insects with wings"?
Or maybe actually means "flying critters" ?
AS> Every child grasps the similarity of winged
AS> creatures but has to be patiently told that a bat is not a bird, in
AS> the same fashion that a child groups all sea animals together as
AS> "fish" and it must be explained to them that dolphins and whales are
AS> not such. But of course, that is OUR grouping. When we classify, the
AS> classifications themselves are somewhat arbitrary. Some seem to defy
AS> them altogether, like the platypus, only to be later explained by
AS> further fine-tuning of the classifications. I think the ancient
AS> Hebrews (as probably did a lot of other ancient peoples) classed
AS> animals in large grouping by what they DID, not by their covering or
AS> their method of reproduction. Surely the ancient Hebrew scribes cannot
AS> be faulted for using words in a way that their PRIMARY audience, the
AS> ancient Hebrews understood, rather than our own classifications 3
AS> thousand years later. And to God, to whom all the web of life is one,
AS> it must amuse Him as much the way WE divide up life into neat little
AS> compartments as the ancient Hebrews' equally abitrary (although not
as
AS> systematic) classification. Notice in the list, the bats are mentioned
AS> LAST, as if the scribe is not sure where they fall, but lumped them
AS> with birds for lack of a better place to put them? The Hebrews had no
AS> word for "mammal" that we know of. That is OUR classification, not
AS> theirs.
I do admire the patient way you explain things.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 05 Feb 96 15:59:50
EID:a4e4 20457f60
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088255
FMPT 1012
-> On 01-30-96 20:27, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
->
DC> You do, of course, realize, that while your religion has been extant,
DC> the 98% of all the species that have _ever_ lived have gone extinct?
DC>
MH> Oh good grief! So now Christianity -- not corporate greed,
MH>
DC> Where did that Western corporate greed come from, Mikey?
Obviously not from the word and example of the NT Christ.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: alleged 'christians'...
|Date: 06 Feb 96 15:53:18
EID:5551 20467ea0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088257
FMPT 1012
RB> This 'sucking up to the heathens' accusation is reminiscent of another
RB> 'label': nigger lover.
JS> Hmmm...what's a 'nigger'?
RB> It's commonly used as a derogatory term for a minority. Not that
RB> different from 'heathen' really.
RB> Picture this: A small town in the year 1900 overwhelmingly supports
RB> segregation. But one oddball on the outskirts of town regularly
RB> associates with the 'minorities'. He even defends their civil rights.
RB> The good citizens of the town are almost unanimous in their opinion
of
RB> this upstart: he's a 'nigger lover'.
RB> Now just juggle the players slightly and you have 'heathen lover'. ___
So are heathens the persecuted minority of the HOLYSMOKE forum ?
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: flood
|Date: 06 Feb 96 16:39:14
EID:1a68 204684e0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088258
FMPT 1012
KD> On (02 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Karen Davis...
AM> Those witnesses are dead. Many paid with there lives and would not
AM> recant no matter what form of torture awaited them. Do you think
AM> Nero throwing christians to lions in the colliseum is just myth?
KD> Affidavits, please.
---------------------------- snip ---------------------------- From: Karen
Davis
KD> The Encyclopedia Britannica is NOT a valid source for anything.
---------------------------- snip ----------------------------
But if any man [or woman] be ignorant,
let him [or her] be ignorant. 1 Cor. 14:38
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: flood
|Date: 06 Feb 96 16:42:50
EID:1a68 20468540
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088259
FMPT 1012
KD> On (03 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Karen
[-------------------]
AM> No, your wrong there, study other cultures that reject the
AM> Christian-Judeo ethic and see how well the women are treated.
AM> Asain and Arab cultures treat women as dogs.
KD> Asian cultures do a better job than Christian.
KD> It is not religious in that case. [---------]
Asian women are worse off equality wise
than American women a hundred years ago.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 3