God Damned Fundies!
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Bartender!
|Date: 11 Feb 96 19:33:00
EID:79fe 204b9c20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214392
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to J.j. Hitt <=-
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Ryan Shaw <=-
JB>
JJH>> User Favorite Poison
JJH>> - The Late J.J. Hitt Sugar-laden teeth rotting Cola
RS> Ryan Shaw draught Guinness
JB>
JB> Judith Bandsma Diet Coke
JB>
Michael Hardy 2 parts IBC Root Beer, 1 part cream
... First a Swede, reincarnated as a Norweigian: Yep, I'm Bjorn again.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Export...
|Date: 11 Feb 96 19:35:00
EID:46a5 204b9c60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214393
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jose Gomez <=-
KDM> Give me charcoal to the measure two.
KDM> Send the bullet where you want it to.
KDM> Give me sulfer to the measure three.
KDM> Make that powder gonna keep you free.
KDM> Give me salt peter, measure fifteen.
KDM> Sweetest shootin' that you've ever seen.
Hey nonny nonny hey hey
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 11 Feb 96 19:36:00
EID:41c1 204b9c80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214394
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kelsey Bjarnason to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> Well at your request I read both Chapters of Genesis. I don't
BJ>see the problem you are having with it. Please quote the verses
BJ>that you are having trouble with! Or maybe you re-read them! And
BJ>remember to use the King James Version please. Because some of the
BJ>other version have parts missing.
KB> The KJV, is it? That's funny. We keep getting Christians who
KB> insist the KJV is junk. Then we have ones like you who insist
KB> upon using it. You'd think that if Christians had any brains
KB> at all, they'd at least be able to figure out which of their
KB> story books is the One True Storybook(tm).
Name one Christian on this echo -- past or present -- who has said the
KJV is "junk." I am the closest I can think of, and ALL I have said is
that it is slightly inferior to more modern translations -- and more
because of the way English has changed since 1611 than any weakness in
the KJV itself.
Got any evidence for your claim?
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: God's Word...
|Date: 11 Feb 96 19:37:00
EID:2977 204b9ca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214395
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Robert Jackson <=-
PS> No, actually. I stole the tagline elsewhere, but I was familiar with
PS> the characters of Chiun and Remo from an obscure little film I saw
RJ> "Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins" wasn't all that
RJ> obscure. It was a big-budget thing with some fairly big names.
PS> Not many people that I know of even knew that such a film existed.
PS> Hell, for a long time, *I* didn't know that it existed.
It featured "What If," one of Tommy Shaw's better post-Styx songs.
... This score just in: Deep Space 9, Babylon 5.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: information
|Date: 12 Feb 96 18:53:00
EID:1622 204c96a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214396
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I have already answered his challenge on this. I am NOT arguing
MH> for censorship of any sort. I'm arguing for simple courtesy and
MH> respect, which I no there's little hope of getting.
MH> I do not endorse censorship of any sort.
RS> Good, then just skip over messages that you find offensive.
Very often I do exactly that. However, sometimes I choose to exercise
*my* freedom of speech to express an opinion.
RS> As I have
RS> stated before, it would be even more offensive to even think of
RS> limiting `offensive' speech.
Should there be hardcore pornography on broadcast television at 4 in
the afternoon?
If you say no, then it would seem that you do condone some limits on
free speech.
... Definition of Fundy: Changes frequently; call for current version.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 12 Feb 96 18:55:00
EID:5ca1 204c96e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214397
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Michael Hardy <=-
JH>> I couldn't figure out what I had done to deserve being
JH>> compared to you.
MH> I would take being compared to you to be a compliment. Of all
MH> the atheists here, you are one of only a few who can make points
MH> without resorting to insults. (Most of the time.) If there any
MH> atheists that a Christian can, in good conscience, look to as a
MH> role model in any sense, you are one of the few.
JH> You want something from me... I can tell.
JH> The only thing that might place me in a minority here in the echo is
JH> I don't feel any animosity towards belief systems. I don't feel any
JH> obligation to "respect" them either, but I feel it would be a waste
JH> of emotional energy to work my self up to a point of an ALL CAPS
JH> SCREAMING RAGE over them.
And that does, indeed, set you apart.
JH> I also have a grasp upon a concept that has eluded you, Jesse Jones
JH> and Jim Staal (among others): it's real easy to become a crashing
JH> bore in this medium. If you have a legitimate beef with a user (lets
JH> use Fred Rice as a somewhat less than hypothetical example), state
JH> your case publicly and then MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE. Harping on a
JH> single issue month after month with thousands of messages simply
JH> insures that your posts will be ignored by most.
You make a good point; however, we are frequently faced with
antagonists who will accuse us of evasion if we fail to answer the same
question each of the 100 times it is asked.
You're right, though.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 12 Feb 96 18:57:00
EID:c943 204c9720
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214398
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> The universe was created to glorify God. Not (mostly) for our benefit.
MH> What egotism leads you to assume that the existence of God means that
MH> everything in the universe would be for our direct benefit?
RB> MY egotism? MY egotism?!?! _I_ think we evolved from a
RB> drooling, hairy primate. YOU think we were created in
RB> the image of the creator of the universe. And you have
RB> the GALL to speak of MY egotism?
However, you also seem to think that if a God *did* exist, the universe
would be completely man-centered. You, among others, have said that you
take the fact that much of the universe appears to be lifeless, and has
little direct effect on us, to be evidence that it was not designed.
To which I say: Yes, the universe is much more vast than it needs to be
for our direct benefit. So what?
And that's where egotism comes in -- why should you assume that God, if
God existed, would NOT have created a vast universe, for reasons that
may have nothing to do with humanity whatsoever?
... Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: haggis vs. food
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:10:00
EID:3a63 204c9940
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89214399
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> According to Monty Python's Big Red Book, "The Scottish people consider
MH> haggis not only a delicacy, but actually fit for human consumption."
KW> Well, you *can* eat it. But this Scot would have to be pretty hungry
KW> now that I'm old enough not to be bullied over it. As for Scots
KW> delicacies, ever had stoved potatoes? Or venison mincemeat?
Can't say as I have. Are they good?
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:11:00
EID:f760 204c9960
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> SA> Nope. I'm serious. I used to support Dole, but he's become a
MH> SA> bit too moderate since deciding to run for the presidency again.
MH> SA> He's compromising his ideals in exchange for votes
MH> SA> (like most politicians). Gramm spells out his precise intentions.
MH> I heard Gramm speak a few weeks ago when the Southern Republican
MH> Leadership Conference was held here. I was impressed.
KW> If you and Styx want Gramm, you can most certainly have him. Texas
KW> has outdone herself with sleazy politicians lately, what with him and
KW> the Bushs. But, I don't think that you'd want him long if you got him.
I don't especially want Gramm; I just disliked him less in person than
I thought I would. The problem with the election this year is that
there is nobody that I DO want among the candidates. I voted for
Clinton in 92 and have been tremendously disappointed, so there's no
way I can vote for him again. But among the R's, Dole is a windsock,
blowing whichever way he thinks the voters want him to, and I can't
vote for someone like that. Gramm and Forbes are both too focused on
the economy, which is important but not the sole issue for the
President to face. And none of the other Republicans seem to have a
chance of winning. (Not that there are any among the also-rans that I
really like either.)
Makes me want to move to Toronto or Grandville or some other foreign
place.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: legend
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:15:00
EID:d903 204c99e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> At most, that gives 10-12 years for myth-makers to create an entire
set
MH> of supernatural happenings centered around a recently dead local
MH> person, AND invent an entire cast of supporting characters, many of
MH> whom were portrayed as still alive and present, and somehow make people
MH> believe the myth.
KW> Mike, they didn't invent the supernatural happenings. They borrowed
KW> them from other beliefs then existent. There is very little original
KW> in the Christ myth cycle.
Regardless. There's simply not enough time for them to ascribe
miraculous events -- whatever the source -- and have them believed.
From the perspective of the very first hearers, the evangelists
weren't saying these things about someone who lived a century ago
thousands of miles away, but less than a decade ago right here. And the
others involved -- Peter, John, James, etc. -- should still be alive
and right here in Jerusalem. Kind of hard to claim the disciples were
fictional characters, in light of that fact.
MH> Furthermore, scholars have dated the composition of the three synoptic
MH> gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) within a range of a.d. 40 to a.d. 80
MH> or so, with liberal scholars opting for later dates and conservative
MH> scholars opting for earlier ones, in most cases. John's gospel is
MH> variously dated anywhere from a.d. 60 to a.d. 100.
KW> This sounds more like half a century than the figure of 10-12 years
KW> that you gave me above. A half a century is plenty of time for a
KW> legend to get started, especially if you have vigorous proselytizers
KW> pushing it.
Did you miss something? My first point dealt with Paul's letters. The
earliest of those were written within 10-12 years of Jesus's death. And
since they were written to established communities of believers,
obviously the beliefs must have existed for some time prior to the
letters being written.
The letters of Paul portray a Jesus who is very much miraculous, in
that he rose from the grave and was God in human flesh. There's no
evidence of the development of legend.
MH> Even at the latest dates, though, a maximum of fifty years passes
MH> between Jesus's death and the completion of all three synoptic
MH> gospels. Because the gospels were first used by existing faith
MH> communities, the material in them must be older than the final
MH> written versions.
KW> Oh, yes. Probably most of the material in them pre dates the alleged
KW> birth of the Christ.
Can you support that claim with some actual evidence? I'm giving you
dates and specifics, and you're countering with vague claims.
... Don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: maria russell
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:24:00
EID:37de 204c9b00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I would like you to know that her position -- at least, as you portray
MH> it, is NOT what the Bible advocates. The one passage which those who
MH> would dominate women use as justification actually says that men and
MH> women in a marriage are BOTH supposed to be subject to one another.
MH> (I'll quote it at the end of the post, for your reference.)
MH> What happens is that abusive men start reading after the summary
MH> sentence, and then stop reading halfway through the passage. Paul
MH> writes first that both should submit to each other. Then he
MH> elaborates, saying that a married woman -- and the passage applies only
MH> to marriage, not any other relationship -- should submit to her
MH> husband, but also that the husband should love his wife
MH> self-sacrifically and with holiness. A man who truly loves his wife
MH> with self-sacrifice and holiness is not going to exploit her
MH> submissiveness by abusing her.
KW> Mike, do you have any idea of how often abuse is presented as an act
KW> of love? Especially the more subtle forms of abuse? "If I didn't love
KW> you so much, you couldn't make me so mad." "I love you to much to ever
KW> let you go."
As I said, real love won't do that. And abusers can always find some
justification for their abuse.
KW> So we get to submit in exchange for love. Love the woman as yourself
KW> while you practise a faith that asks self-loathing as the cost of a
KW> ticket to salvation.
MH> The picture Paul paints is mutual submission. In an ideal marriage,
MH> each partner is focused on the other first, not the self. This fosters
MH> a dual benefit -- each partner has their needs met, out of the other's
MH> love, not out of selfishness. The man and woman are both learning
MH> and growing in the art of giving to others -- to one another.
KW> With the woman paying in submission and receiving back 'love'. Why
KW> does it not say that the man will submit to his wife, and return she
KW> will love him?
The very first phrase of the passage is "Submit to one another."
Apparently, you missed it just like abusive men do.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:26:00
EID:9481 204c9b40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I don't. I *believe* it to be true. It's an integral part of my
MH> worldview. I can't demonstrate it to an unbeliever, and wouldn't
MH>claim to.
BK> What do you beleive with regards to reincarnation?
I don't believe in reincarnation, but I did in a previous life. :)
Cheers!
... I'm not religious. I just love the Lord.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:28:00
EID:575d 204c9b80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> For a more reasonable example, if I wrote a story about Ronald
MH>Reagan's presidency, and invented a fictional vice-president and
MH>cabinet members, and claimed that Reagan championed big government
MH>social programs and zeroing out the defense budget, and tried to
MH>pass it off as fact, would it hold up under scrutiny in 1996?
BK> Not bad...get to work on it. Perhaps, in 2000 years, it will be
BK> *just* as sacred a document as your Bible, and people will be
BK> defending it as whole heartedly as you are defending *your* particular
BK> myths. Throw a few translations in there, and see what that does for
BK> you book, as well:).
However, no one would believe it today. Yet, for your purposes in
picking up this argument, you have to assume that people in a.d. 40
accepted an even more farfetched story about someone who had just died
in a.d. 33, who lived in the same place they did and that they may have
even known personally.
MH> Not and get people who lived through the time and in the place they
MH> were about to believe them.
BK> What makes you so sure people of the time beleived them? Perhaps,
BK> given enough time,
ROFL! Because every piece of available evidence corroborates the fact
that they did, and none refutes it. Nero was burning Christians by the
early 60s a.d., so obviously people had believed it for some time
before then.
MH> has been soundly debunked among scholars, and only a few eccentrics
MH> would give it any currency today.
BK> Really? Do tell...your scholars (funny how they always seem to show
BK> up when you need them) state that the Jesus story is absolutley
BK> original, and unlike the other myths of the day?
Is that what I said? No, it isn't. Of course there may be some vague
similarities -- Jesus had two eyes, Mithra had two eyes ... Jesus had
one liver, Mithra had one liver -- but they really don't amount to much
when examined closely.
Whenever there are strong parallels between Christianity and some
mystery religion, the evidence always indicates that Christianity was
around first, and any borrowing of ideas went the opposite direction
from what you'd like to think.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: scientists
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:44:00
EID:8660 204c9d80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921439F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> MH> Note that all of these have their credentials from secular
MH> MH> universities. I would say they are all legitimate scientists who
MH> MH> believe a Creator is necessary, or at least a viable hypothesis,
MH> MH> to explain our existence.
MH> BK> Yet you describe most as Christians...Certainly you mean
MH> BK> "scientists who believe the Christian God is necessary..."
MH> I mean what I said.
BK> So, none of them have stated that *your* god is the "necessary
BK> Creator"? Let's not equivocate now, Mike. How many have them
BK> provided evidence, not only for the existence of a creator, but
BK> evidence that it is *your* creator, in addition to evidence that none
BK> of the other "creators" exist?
I said what I meant.
MH> MH> Unless you want to assert that their conclusion to that effect
MH> MH> automatically disqualifies them. Which is simply a case of
MH> MH> picking the arrows you like and drawing a target around them,
MH> MH> defining the arrows other as misses simply because you don't
MH> MH> like what they hit.
MH> BK> Puhleeze! You must admit this undermines their credibility just
MH> BK> a tad...
MH> Why? Dogamtically insisting that no god is possible strikes you as
MH> "objective?"
BK> I'm sorry. I have not come across any authors of scientific texts
BK> that have felt that was important to the subject of the text to
BK> include any regard for the supernatural, positive or negative. I've
BK> not read "Gravity is the reason things seem to fall to the earth, no
BK> gods are required". So, it came as a surprise to me that your
BK> scientists were doing so. I would not regard as credible *any*
BK> "scientist" who discusses things *outside* of this universe...that's
BK> hardly being objective. Or did your "creator" create the universe
BK> from within the universe? Try the ranch dressing...
Try reading some of their books, instead of criticizing something you
know nothing about.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: dieting deities
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:47:00
EID:f4c7 204c9de0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> hehe. 'Zactly. That was the only point I was making. ;)
LB> But as long as we're chatting about Saul -- he never met the guy, and
LB> was prone to be as zealous in his version of Christian theology as he
LB> ever claimed
LB> to be against it. Jesus never called himself a Diety or Deity or even
LB> God.
MH> Do you believe Jesus was the incarnation of God, Lynda?
LB> Yes. The creedal statement is that he was fully God and fully man.
LB> I also acknowledge that my belief in the incarnation is based on
LB> theology as formulated primarily by Paul -- and he never knew Jesus
in
LB> life, was prone to be zealous in his formulation of theology, and Jesus
LB> himself was never recorded
LB> in the gospels as declaring himself to be God. If Paul's statements
LB> were all deleted from the Bible, the doctrine of Jesus as God in the
LB> flesh would be almost completely eliminated.
Hm. I don't really agree with that. Granted, Jesus never said "I am
God." (Although "I and the Father are one," comes pretty close.)
However, he did make it clear that he was not just an ordinary Josh.
Jesus seems to have preferred to let people figure out who he was, as
when he asked Peter "Who do you say that I am?" Yet he did announce
himself as someone out of the ordinary as, for example, is related in
Luke 4:17-21:
The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it,
he found the place where it is written:
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to
preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for
the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the
oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat
down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and
he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your
hearing."
LB> Now, why do you ask -- was there any part of the first statement I
LB> made that you consider to be false?
I asked because I was curious.
LB> I can maintain my belief while
LB> still looking dead on at the facts as they are presented by taking a
LB> hard look at scripture. Can you, or must they be ignored if they are
LB> uncomfortable to you?
I would never ignore the truth, whether I liked it or not. I haven't
quite figured out just what you think the truth to be, as regards the
gospel accounts of Jesus's life, except that you think the birth
narratives are myth -- therefore I don't know whether I agree with your
opinion of what the truth is.
And whenever I try to ask you for your opinion, as I just did, I get
the impression that you suspect it's a challenge or criticism rather
than a simple, unloaded question.
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:56:00
EID:f424 204c9f00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> but your "brother" IS "that way"?
LB> Jim, quit hiding. It's pointless.
MH> Psst. He's not Jim. This much I know for sure.
LB> How? I'm serious -- I'd really like to know for sure. He got me with
LB> Lon -- I always accepted Lon as a seperate person. I have tried to
LB> deal with Mark as seperate, but I have doubts. If you could put those
LB> to rest, I would appreciate it.
Dave Oosterman, who knows Jim personally (they live in the same town),
confirmed that Mark Staal is a different person.
... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Offensive ASCIIs
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:58:00
EID:47ff 204c9f40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about Offensive ASCIIs:
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Damien Wellman <=-
DW> Don't blame me... I only found it. I'll try to work on it a little
DW> myself and see if I can't shape it up, so to speak.
LB>
LB> I've never tried doing an ASCII drawing before, but how does this
LB> look:
LB>
MH> Like a suck-up to the heathens? (JOKE!!!)
LB> (G) Well, that's better than a blimp! Of course, I happen to find the
LB> Darwin fish hysterical -- and since I've never understood why evolution
LB> should be held contrary to Christianity..... ;)
I saw the blimp remark -- wish I'd thought of it. :)
... Don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: those noms du smoke
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:59:00
EID:c1a8 204c9f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> He's not Lump. Dave Oosterman has confirmed for me that Lump really
MH> is Mark Staal.
JB>
JB> That may be true, but can Dave tell you for sure that it really IS
JB> Mark posting here under his own name...or Jim using Mark's name as
JB> another alias? And would Mark admit to it if that were the case?
Hmmmm ... I don't know about that. However, Jim and Mark's styles are
not identical, and I don't think Jim is that skilled an impersonator. I
can usually tell it's him no matter what the name is, and "Lump" sounds
different.
JB> There really is a Lon Mabon (minus the 'S'), too. He is a bigot who
JB> believes that capital punishment should be used for gays, just because
JB> they are gay, female adulterers should be stoned and children killed
JB> for sassing their parents. Maybe you didn't know that? Why did you
JB> think the choice of that particular name is offensive to EVERYBODY with
JB> the exception of other extreme right wing bigots? Anyone who would
JB> chose to use that name must know what it stands for.
I knew there was a real Lon Mabon, but didn't know anything about him.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: legend
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:01:00
EID:7405 204ca020
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
KD> On (09 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> But what we don't have is any evidence that people who knew Arthur
MH> personally believed the legends less than 10 years later.
MH> But we do have evidence that people who knew Jesus personally believed
MH> he really rose from the dead, and that no significant amount of time
MH> elapsed before this belief developed.
KD> No such evidence. We have 15th hand accounts.
Ample evidence. Paul's earliest letters were written in the late 40s,
a.d. They were written to established communities of believers as far
away as Rome, so obviously the belief must have existed for some time
before the letters were written.
Paul's letters, even the earliest ones, have a fully developed
Christology with Jesus as the risen savior. There's no evidence
whatsoever that any Christian groups existed that *didn't* hold this
belief.
Therefore, the belief that Jesus had risen from the grave developed
very rapidly, at MOST within a few years, and in the very place and
among the very people who had known him in the flesh.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: Worrell
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:05:00
EID:1633 204ca0a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892143A5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Oosterman to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> The MWS concert was excellent, BTW.
DO> I'll grab the CD manana...
Good. I expect a full report ...
MH> And what are you doing here? I thought you just lurked. :)
DO> You looked like you could use a hand. ;-)
Hey, I'm a married man! ;-)
... Atheist reaching orgasm: "Oh chance! Oh random!!!! Yes!! Yes!!!"
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Staal shows his colon
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:48:35
EID:22ec 204bae00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b1f73bee
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311b9658
On (09 Feb 96) Don Martin wrote to Marilyn Burge...
DM> How are you surviving the water? On high ground, one hopes?
DM> The people we see being evacuated on the TV news DO seem to
DM> be the types who can afford waterfront--in this country
DM> misfortunes become tragedies when they happen to somebody
DM> pulling down more than $75 K.
We are definitely on high ground (and low rent) real estate. We
went from -30-to--35 with windchill factor last week to around 60
this week. Is it any wonder we flooded? I took the MAX
(Metropolitan Area Express) train downtown Friday night, and I
must say, even in Portland where the Willamette didn't officially
spill its banks, it was quite a sight to behold. The last time I
remember anything approaching this level of destruction was during
the Vanport Flood of 194(8?), and, of course, there was much less
population density then, so you can't really compare the two.
Plus, we have spendy homes sliding off the West Hills from the
erosion. Why is it the rich insist on building in the two worst
places: on riverbanks and hillsides? I guess if you can afford the
price of the land, the price of the insurance is a minor
inconvenience.
... Fundamentalist : (n) Ape like creature with a bible.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: INFORMATION
|Date: 11 Feb 96 22:06:46
EID:d95f 204bb0c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 59ca6147
On (10 Feb 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Hector Plasmic...
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Styx Allum <=-
HP> "You have the right to think for yourself. If you cannot or will not
HP> think, the court will appoint a religion for you."
JB> I'm wondering if the present ban of discussion of abortion on the net
JB> will also apply to the fundy position on the subject.
I can almost wish I had an Internet account so I could use myself
as a test case for some of this shit.
... A man drove me to drink. I never properly thanked him.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Hey, i'm new
|Date: 11 Feb 96 22:17:41
EID:e03d 204bb220
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7395332c
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311b965b
On (09 Feb 96) Don Martin wrote to LES WILCOX...
DM> As Diogenes walked away in disgust, LES WILCOX said "Hey,
DM> i'm new" to NORBERT SYKES, adding:
NS> Rather than trying to make others jump through hoops, poothead (G),
why
NS> don't _you_ capture the opening screen and show it to us? BTW, who
mad
NS> _you_ (poothead) the moderator around here?
LW> I have a better idea. If you're so worried about it why don't you
LW> send me the 50 bucks and I'll register the thang.
DM> Another splendid demonstration of your integrity. And we
DM> keep getting accused of making up this sort of shit about
DM> Christians to make them look bad.
Should I assume your answer is "no"?
... Fundamentalist : (n) Ape like creature with a bible.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: David Robins
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 11 Feb 96 22:19:13
EID:a210 204bb260
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 8ff6260f
REPLY: 1:247/312.0 311d3fb8
On (08 Feb 96) David Robins wrote to Roland...
DR> ___ Quoting Roland to ALL re dinosaurs? on 01 Feb 96 15:28:40
Ro> I am a christain.. And i believe most of the Christian ideas. But i
Ro> have on question....
DR> 1) So am I, but you'll get no help in this conference as it's purpose
DR> is _anti_Christian.
Ro> In Genesis 1:24 God created all animals on the earth..and later that
Ro> day he created man. In his image...
DR> I think it was a different day?
Ro> But scientist have proven that there was 65 million years between the
Ro> death of the dinosaurs and the beginning of man....
DR> Not proven conclusively.
Ro> Did God create dinosaurs at the same time as man? Or did God create
Ro> dinosaurs before that, perhaps as his first try at a living world..then
Ro> realize that the dinosaurs were incapable of worshiping him and destroy
Ro> them...Then 65 million years later create man.
DR> The "Taylor trail" is a recently discovered path that shows a human
DR> track running through a dinosaur track. That and other evidence,
DR> samples, etc. seem to indicate that man and dinosaur did once
DR> co-exist. I forget the name of the lead scientist in that discovery
DR> but I can find it if you want.
You are talking about the Paluxy tracks. They've been so thoroughly
debunked that even the fundies are embarrassed by any claims that
they are real.
... The worst thing about censorship is ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ and it ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ!!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 0
|Date: 11 Feb 96 23:14:14
EID:259b 204bb9c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 dbef45c4
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 311da829
On (10 Feb 96) Sue Armstrong wrote to Judith Bandsma...
SA> And Brave Sir Judith ran away, screaming "ONE LAST COMMENT 0"!
JB> Don't feel bad. There is an old Quaker cemetery in downtown
JB> Charleston. They built a hotel over it and put a plaque up to show
JB> where it had been. I should say IS. They didn't move the bodies.
SA> I see the makings of a new genre of horror film - instead of the
SA> building being haunted because it's over a 5,000 year Indian
SA> burial ground, have it be haunted because it's over a Quaker
SA> burial ground. :)
SA> Though somehow, I can't imagine Quakers haunting anyone. I keep
SA> getting imagaes of that guy on the oatmeal box going "Boo!"
"Back off before thou bump into one of my bullets."
... A cynic smells the flowers & looks for the casket!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Don Ward
|To:
|Sub: CPu parts
|Date: 12 Feb 96 06:16:04
EID:86d0 204c3200
MSGID: 1:388/14.0 311f2f84
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
I have a Intel 386dx 25MHZ motherboard with math co-proccesser. I"ll take
$30.00 dollars for it...
Prov 15:2 The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the
fool gushes folly.
* Wave Rider 1.33 # 761 *
---
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 10 Feb 96 18:38:00
EID:5eb4 204a94c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB47
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>> Actually, since they died while they were still innocent, they're
MH>> enjoying eternity in heaven and probably have no complaints. In fact,
MH>> since God's judgment kept them from growing up to adopt the evil ways
MH>> of their parents, they're probably very grateful.
HP> Didn't see the original. I hope you were kidding. If not, you're
HP> exemplifying the sort of xtian attitude that leads to the conclusion
HP> that it's okay to kill the heathen (or anybody else you like) --
HP> they'll be so grateful to you, after all (or go to their just
HP> punishment, and screw 'em).
HP> Were you serious, Mikey?
I'm frustrated with atheists who take a self-righteous tone and
proclaim the Christian God unworthy of their worship, because a loving
God "would not" do whatever it is they think they're informed enough to
know a loving God would not do.
This response was intentionally written to show the arrogance of such
an attitude by applying the same approach to the opposite point of
view.
In fact, I don't have a cut-and-dried explanation for why God is
portrayed in the Old Testament as occasionally championing the
destruction of entire cities, including the presumably innocent
children. I do believe that God will prove to be right and righteous no
matter what the answer turns out to be -- that he did save the
innocent, or that he never ordered the destruction of cities at all,
and the Israelites claimed their own political goals were "God's will,"
or some other alternative.
So no, I did not intend my response to be a serious answer to the
challenge. The issue is complex enough and serious enough to deserve a
far more exhaustive examination than could be done in this format.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: belief
|Date: 10 Feb 96 22:27:00
EID:9a37 204ab360
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB48
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>> Don't ask me for evidence of this; it is an article of faith.
MH>> You either believe it or you don't.
HP> You've been on a roll, haven't you, Mikey? If we don't believe it
HP> (and even you admit there's no _reason_ to believe it), it's rather
HP> obvious that we're also not going to buy any conclusions you base on
HP> that little unevidenced "article of faith," isn't it?
Then don't. I was asked what I believe, and I answered. I don't care
if you agree or not.
But I didn't say there's no reason to believe it; I said it can't be
proven to a materialist with a closed mind.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: scientists
|Date: 10 Feb 96 18:47:00
EID:3faf 204a95e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB49
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Michael Hardy <=-
SS>> Straw argument. No one is questioning the fact that many
SS>> scientists, christians, muslims and jews have religious beliefs.
MH> All of the scientists I named do argue that a supernatural Creator
MH> figures into the existence of the universe and the origin of life,
MH> and they offer what they consider scientific evidence for same.
MH> You should read some of their books.
SS> Tell me what evidence they offer to support the conclusion of a
SS> creator.
SS> Please be specific and be kind enough to separate their religious
SS> beliefs from real science.
Read the books. I have no desire to spend my time trying to
summarize what adds up to several thousand pages of material. If you're
interested, you'll read the books, or at least one or two of them. If
you're not interested enough to do that, then I'm not interested in
spoon-feeding you.
SS>> How about a scientific theory of creationism? Have any of these
SS>> esteemed individuals offered a scientific theory of creationism?
SS>> If not, why not?
MH> It depends on how you define "creationism." If you mean the theory
MH> that God poofed the universe into existence over six days 10,000 years
MH> ago, then no. If you mean the idea that God is ultimately the author
MH> of the universe, through whatever variety of natural processes, then
MH> yes, all of them do.
SS> They do? I'm sure that Hector and other had posted to you numerous
SS> times what is required of a scientific theory. Are their theories
SS> falsifiable? Do they show a mechanism for creation?
Read the books.
SS> It sounds like they don't have scientific theories, only religious
SS> beliefs.
SS> This takes me back to one of my original questions, i.e., do you
SS> Michael Hardy know the differnece between science and religious belief?
Yes, I do. I also know the difference between an interested skeptic and
a smug unbeliever.
... Thanks for your opinion. I hope I can get it off my shoe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: YHWH
|Date: 10 Feb 96 18:50:00
EID:b317 204a9640
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Michael Hardy <=-
SS>> You can't have it both ways, Mikey.
MH> God makes us responsible for alleviating suffering. He allows it to
MH> continue because *we* should be trying to relieve it. It's part of
MH> the purpose of our life on earth, part of how we choose whether to
MH> love God or not.
MH> Makes perfect sense to me.
SS> Please outline for me exactly how to relieve the suffering of the
SS> Ebola virus. Thanks.
You could have made the same point about polio not much more than half
a century ago. And yet people who cared enough to work at it managed to
do that, didn't they?
We already know enough about how Ebola is spread that we could keep
anyone else from ever getting it, if our society as a whole cared
enough to build modern sanitary medical facilities in African nations
and staff them with nurses and doctors who knew what they were doing.
... Tagline deleted -- Nothing funny about this.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: evidence
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:37:00
EID:ba1d 204aaca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Jim Staal <=-
RS> You demanding evidence?
JS> Correct. Problem? I hear this 'death cult' stuff all the time and
JS> yet not one atheist/pagan can come up with one shred of evidence to
JS> support it.
RS> We have presented you with plenty of evidence. You just chose to
RS> _ignore_ it.
ROFL! What evidence?
What I've heard boils down to this:
1. Christianity is based on the death of its central figure.
2. Christians have perpetrated some atrocities in world history.
The rebuttals to both of these are easy.
1. A half-truth. Christianity is based on the death AND RESURRECTION
TO ETERNAL LIFE of its central figure.
2. Tragically true, but demonstrably OPPOSED to the original core
teachings of the faith. Atrocities perpetrated in the name of Christ
are in clear violation of Christ's teachings. Just because someone
claims to be acting "in the name of Jesus" doesn't mean anything. If
someone shot a Klansman "in the name of Martin Luther King," would
followers of King -- and his insistence on non-violent resistance -- be
responsible?
... NO CARRIER... A naval aviator's worst nightmare ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: death
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:43:00
EID:92f4 204aad60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Michael Hardy <=-
SS>> Mikey, you are crumbling from the base, are you not? Thousands
SS>> of years of observations of MILLIONS of deaths have rendered the
SS>> unshakable conclusion that when you die, that's all there is.
MH> They've done no such thing. All we know from observation is that once
MH> the body dies, it -- the body -- remains dead.
SS> Yes, the body which includes EVERYTHING, dies and rots. Do you have
SS> evidence of anything ELSE? You have a very bad habit, Michael. You
SS> keep projecting UNEVIDENCED things to prop up other UNEVIDENCE things.
SS> A simple case in point is right below in your words.
MH> The Christian idea of
SS> A christian BELIEF, supported by....your christians belief? Where is
SS> your evidence, Mikey?
It's a chain of reasoning, really. The evidence is good that the
earliest followers of Jesus believed him to be divine and to have risen
from the grave. I find the arguments in this regard to be persuasive.
I can find no plausible explanation for this belief except that it's
true. And because I hold no a priori rejection of the idea of a
God, I have no reason to insist that there *must* be a naturalistic
explanation.
Because I consider the case for Jesus's divine nature to be strong,
I accept what Jesus taught about, among other things, life after
death. I have no *direct* evidence of it, but there is evidence of the
truth of the claims about Jesus, and that validates the teachings *of*
Jesus.
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:47:00
EID:e8bb 204aade0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Andrew Masten <=-
AM>> Paul Davies " The laws of physics seem themselves to be a
AM>> product of exceedingly ingenious design"
KDM>> So?
AM> If we are here by design, the logical inference is a
AM> designer.
MG> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild assed guess
MG> by some scientist?
A whole host of scientists, actually, including some -- such as Davies
-- who held no particular theistic belief as they discovered the
intricate design of the universe.
I suspect this is like one of those Magic Eye pictures -- you either
see it or you don't. (Although people who don't may yet, if they keep
trying.)
... The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: importance
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:49:00
EID:b220 204aae20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Scot Bear to Andrew Masten <=-
> This is exactly why I wrote this in my original post. I
> said nothing about
> God. I'm contending for creation, without any reference
> to who the creator
> might be. What point would it serve, if you deny a creator
> to begin with.
SB>
SB> To put it simply, Andy, I, and many other people don't CARE where we
SB> came from. We are just happy (for the most part) to BE.
SB>
SB> I know, in my case, I just don't feel a compelling need to know the
SB> origin of the universe. This knowledge has no bearing on my life one
SB> way or the other.
The existence or non- of a God certainly does. It's the most important
question anyone can ever explore. And if you think it's unimportant,
it's because you think it's already answered in the negative.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: conformists
|Date: 10 Feb 96 21:51:00
EID:d178 204aae60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
JH> I can't see the appeal in it myself. While I am by no means a
JH> conformist (ha! no one admits to being one) I do find there are
JH> advantages to anonymity and the ability to fade into a crowd.
I saw a comic strip -- may have been in Mad Magazine -- that really
spoke to this. It's a middle-aged man talking to his teenaged son. (I
don't recall the dialogue verbatim, but I can get the point across.)
Man: Why did you shave your head?
Son: All my friends were doing it.
Man: Why are you wearing ripped jeans?
Son: It's the style.
Man: Why did you pierce your nostril?
Son: I saw it in a movie.
Man: Why do you do these weird things?
Son: To be different.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: Re: in His own image
|Date: 10 Feb 96 22:32:00
EID:ddb2 204ab400
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB50
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Scot Bear to Jose Gomez <=-
> He keeps watch over ME and MY FAMILY. Maybe you
> should talk to
> Him about YOUR life. He's pretty good about taking in new
> sons.
SB>
SB> Oh, SHUT UP! What crap!
SB>
SB> I, too was a believer and was even planning on going for the
SB> priesthood. Your god kept such good care of me that I found myself
SB> QUITE ALONE at the age of 17 due to the fact that both my parents died
SB> in a car crash.
SB> I hope things are well in YOUR family but *I* had to finish school and
SB> get a job to support myself because I, a believer, didn't have such
SB> godly-protection.
SB>
SB> Just go away...
I'm sorry to hear about your parents. My father died when I was 25 (he
was only 52) which I realize isn't the same, but I do have some measure
of empathy for you.
I don't think that it's fair to blame God for it though, or turn your
back on God because of it. I find nothing in the Bible that guarantees
smooth sailing and easy lives for believers. My wife believes, and yet
she sits in a wheelchair, crippled with MS. Billy Graham certainly
believes, yet he has Parkinson's disease.
As long as we live in this fallen world, Scot, we're not promised any
special protection. I don't claim to understand all the reasons why,
but it seems evident that things must play out as they will.
Remember, as a believer, you must have understood that this life is but
a vapor. "A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, and
signifying nothing." It is what comes after this life that really
counts.
If your parents were believers, then they live forever in heaven. And
if you accept God's grace, then you will too. And it seems likely that
after 10,000 years in heaven, the decades you lived without them here
won't seem all that important.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm NOT trivializing it. There are times I miss
my father terribly and wish I could tell him something, or ask his
advice on something. The loss is real, and at times it's palpable.
But think of it from the perspective God sees it -- eternity. God has
never abandoned you, Scot, and never will unless you wish Him to. But
there's no guarantee of an easy road from cradle to grave.
... Tagline deleted -- Nothing funny about this.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: treatise
|Date: 11 Feb 96 00:16:01
EID:5786 204b0200
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB51
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-> MH> Plenty. The whole point is that God became a man and did endure
-> MH> suffering. You don't think being scourged and then nailed up woul
-> MH> hurt?
->
-> Since you're still spewing this line, allow me to reintroduce my litt
-> treatise upon the "suffering" of your God.
->
-> Since we know that the universe is some 15 billion years or less old,
-> I will use this as a starting figure. Please note that if God has
-> existed longer than this, it merely makes your "suffering" argument
-> even sillier.
->
-> So. 15 billion years. Now, let's suppose, for the sake of argument,
-> that J.C. was nailed to the cross and hung there for, oh, three days.
-> Let's do some math.
->
-> 15 billion years * 356 days / year = 5.475 * 10^12 days. Now, to
-> convert 3 days to a percentage of this, as I recall, we would
-> divide 3 by this figure and multiply by 100. That give us a
-> value of: 5.47945.... * 10^-11 percent.
->
-> Okay. So that's the percentage of one's life which, if spent
-> suffering, you seem to consider significant.
->
You're judging it based purely on quantity. That misses the point
entirely.
A perfectly holy and sinless being allowed much of the sin and evil that
would ever be committed in the world to be placed on his shoulders.
That is an immeasureable sacrifice. The amount of time he spent
suffering physical pain is absolutely irrelevant.
However, given the snide tone of this post and others, it's obvious you
made up your mind and nailed it shut long ago. Therefore, I'm not going
to waste any significant amount of *my* time arguing with you about it.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Violating physics
|Date: 12 Feb 96 12:02:49
EID:af71 204c6040
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 ad15a080
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 11804214
On 10 Feb 96, Steve Rose wrote:
JB> Yours is the "mind reading" form, in which
JB> you presume to know what the content of another person's mind is.
SR> In this instance, Fredric is making TWO mistakes. The second is
SR> assuming there is a mind to be read from.
In Freddie's case, _either_ assumption would be a mistake, for the same
reason noted.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: thinking
|Date: 11 Feb 96 02:59:09
EID:822e 204b1760
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020ad5
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
BRAD JACKSON spoke thusly to FREDRIC RICE:
BJ> FR> It would probably help you to think for yourself, you know.
BJ>
BJ>Hi Fredric!
BJ> Well, Fredric I would like to pose a question to you!
BJ> Would you say that there are more people in this world that
BJ> don't believe in God?
More then Fred? Yeah. I'm one of them.
... I was sane once. Didn't particularly care for the experience.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: churches
|Date: 11 Feb 96 17:30:10
EID:3e87 204b8bc0
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020ae6
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> PS>people might have still given at least lip service to choosing a
PS> PS>mate with good genetic qualities, that may have served a purpose.
PS> PS>But now, when the emphasis is so much more on looks than quality,
PS> PS>it's become kind of an evolutionary nightmare.
PS>
PS> KDM> Makes sense to me. I'd prefer intelligence over looks any day,
PS> KDM> though.
PS>
PS>You and me both, but how many like-minded others of the opposite sex
PS>do you think there are out there?
Few, very few. And all the intelligent ones seem to date scum.
PS>(Before any of you female types
PS>starts bashing me, stop to consider that whatever the aforementioned
PS>number is, I'm sure that the male equivalent is far less.)
Much less, definitely. Now that I think about it, almost none of my
friends have valued intelligence over beauty, at least in potential
mates.
... A belly button is for salt when you eat celery in bed.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Coincidence seven
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:56:11
EID:aa77 204c9f00
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020af7
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> PS>I had an idea about another kind of drive. We all know that
PS> PS>light sails run on light (obviously). What if one used a light
PS> PS>sail twigged to the infrared spectrum and mounted a powerful
PS> PS>infrared lamp on the vessel? Theoretically, if it was powerful
PS> PS>enough, it might push the ship at speeds approaching c, but
PS> PS>certainly not at lightspeed and definitely no faster.
PS>
PS> KDM> Now there's an interesting idea. Hmmmm . . . I can think of a
PS> KDM> few questions, though. First, where would you get the energy
PS> KDM> for the
PS>Could do it the way a conventional light sail does. Stars put out
PS>lots of infrared. Or one might mount a nuclear reactor aboard the
PS>ship (Well shielded, of course).
Yeah, but at that distance?
PS> KDM> be a problem. And thirdly, you'd have to figure out a way to
PS> KDM> bleed off the excess heat from your sail.
PS>
PS>There's that, but the same problem exists for ordinary light sails.
PS>Infrared is just a different frequency of light; the same strength of
PS>ultraviolet might produce just as much heat.
Oh, I know.
JJ pointed out the fatal flaw, though: you're trying to violate the
conservation of momentum. At best, the ship would stay in place, at
worst, it would go backwards.
PS> PS>True. The quantities of mass involved are much smaller, and
PS> PS>although it would initially be *obscenely* expensive, the costs
PS> PS>might level out as the technology progressed.
PS>
PS> KDM> Yes. You'd have to manufacture all of the anti-matter on
PS> KDM> earth, but a matter-anti-matter drive would be much more
PS> KDM> efficient (and, therefore lighter) then any other type of
PS> KDM> drive.
PS>This is also true. I know that anti-matter has been produced (or at
PS>least, I've read that it has) in tiny quantities, certainly not
PS>enough to power a ship with. The technology isn't *that* far away.
It has been. They produced the first anti-atom a few weeks ago.
Problem is, though, you couldn't make it as you went, due to entropy.
... Recursive (r-kr-sv) adj. See "Recursive."
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Door to door missionaries
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:57:12
EID:7064 204c9f20
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020b08
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
FREDRIC RICE spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
FR>kd> A friend claims that when missionaries knock on her door, her
FR>kd> first response is to ask for their address. When they ask why she
FR>kd> wants to know, she says it is so she can visit them to push her
FR>kd> beliefs.
FR>kdm> [Note: I'm gonna try this one]
FR>
FR>Me too. Except that fundy cultists don't come to my door much any
FR>more. }:-}
Gee, I wonder why not?
I don't get any myself. Instead, I get frat boys.
... Actually it's not replying that takes time, it's choosing a tagline.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Judy...judy...judy...
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:58:13
EID:7b79 204c9f40
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020b19
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JUDITH BANDSMA spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JB> KDM> Tell her how big you are, Jim.
JB>
JB>Hey, IF he is that tall, he's only 2 inches taller than Leo. Whoopee.
JB>I've been dealing with Leo from a height of 5'3" for 22 years now.
JB>The extra 2 inches is probably just a bad toupee anyway.
I'm still not sure why Jim's so happy he could intimidate others into
shutting up. Sure, he might shut me up, were we talking face to face.
A man with a gun could do the same thing. That doesn't make what they
are saying right, though.
... "Luke, your mother am I." - Yoda
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Staal shows his colon
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:04:14
EID:bbcb 204ca080
MSGID: 1:157/200 4d020b2a
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> PS> This is the most "Christian" thing I've seen you write in
PS> PS>weeks. Did Jesus ever talk to people like that over such trifles?
PS> PS>
PS>
PS> KDM> Ever heard Dennis Leary's version of what would have happened
PS> KDM> if Jesus hadn't been crucicifed?
PS>
PS>No. Do tell.
Certainly. You may be interested in getting his tape, "No Cure for
Cancer." Somehow, Holysmoke becomes all the more fun when he's singing
"I'm an asshole, an asshole, an assholeo" in the background.
That's why I'm glad Jesus died when he did. Oh yeah. Because if he lived
to be 40, he woulda ended up like Elvis, come on! Oh yeah, he had that
big entourage. Twelve guys willing to do whatever he wanted to do. He
was famous already at that point. If he lived to be 40, he'd be walking
around Jerusalem with a big fat beer gut and black side burns going,
"Damn, I'm the son of God. Give me a cheeseburger and french fries right
now. Where's Mary Magdeline, I want a blow job now. Come on now! Fuck
you, I'll turn you into a leper. Give me a cheeseburger now, God
dammit. Love me tender, love me true, empty my colostamy bag! Oh I think
I shit my pants on that last... Change my diaper now!"
I'm going to hell for that bit. And you're all coming with me! And don't
try to get out of it, "We didn't laugh at that bit, Jesus, please!"
"Shut up! Get on the bus with Leary and Scorsese. You're going right to
fucking hell!" And you know what hell is folks. It's Andy Gibb, singing
Shadow Dancing for eons and eons. And you have to wear orange plaid bell
bottoms and sit next to the Bay City Rollers. "How you guys doing? This
is gonna suck!"
... Let me know right away if you don't get this message.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:11:54
EID:1235 204ba960
MSGID: 1:207/212 751670cf
REPLY: 1:271/460 311c6354
On (10 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> So you'de rather have it like the Old Testament? And in a why he does
KM> since Christ is God, just a different form of God. And I didn't say
that
KM> he couldn't just that he doesn't have to. That is why he sent his Son
to
KM> die on the cross, so all we would have to do is accept him and go to
KM> heaven, instead of the way it was in the old testament.
I'd rather some old fashioned honesty, yes, as opposed to a sham.
Pretending to give someone "for our sins" when it isn't a sacrifice in
the first place...
KD> He actually shows himself to Adam and Eve.
KM> And Adam and Eve goofed up, and he could no longer walk with them.
The hero in that story is the serpent, in my book, bringing knowledge to
people. Allegorically, that is the moment we became people.
KM> How else would he have gotten the Ark built or convienced Moses to go
back
KM> to a land where he was wanted for murder?
Funny... Moses states he has a speech impediment. Why does God choose
him?
KM> Could it be that that is just the way it was arranged? Could it be
KM> different styles of writting? Seems to me that by the New Testament,
since
KM> Christ was indeed God, that he was pretty involved with us then, and
KM> according to the Revelation, he will be in the future as well. Maybe
it's
KM> because we have forgotten how to listen?
Sounds like a bunch of lies to me.
KM> But are you looking at the omnipotent being as he is, or trying to measure
KM> him as you think he sould be?
I don't know how he is. The Bible is clearly a bunch of man made fiction.
KM> So you refuse him because he protected his people as he promised? You
KM> refuse him because he wiped out those that would not worship him, and
KM> those that worshipped other gods instead? I don't know what you see,
but
KM> all I see is God doing what he had to do.
God can't convince the world to worship him without wiping them out?
Particularly those who had never heard his rules?
God can't handle people not believing in him?
KM> Tells you to be silent during worship? First off I don't worship God
in
KM> public. I worship God in the privacy of my own home, not while I'm at
KM> church. And I do get my chance to teach the other adults.
You don't worship god at church? Hmmmm I wonder what you're doing then.
YOU get the chance to teach other adults. I don't. You have a Y
chromosome.
KM> Oh really? Who would deserve worship then? God only gave you the air
you
KM> breath, the water you drink and the food that goes into your belly.
A
KM> planet to live on, for that matter life itself. But that doesn't deserve
KM> worship?
No, as a matter of fact.
The food and water and my shelter come from my own labor and that of my
husband.
I don't thank anyone for my life. Not even those whose bodies developed
it. If you want me to hold someone responsible for my life, which has
been a very difficult one, then they owe me. I doubt you'd ever
understand this unless you've been on the brink of suicide. I am not
grateful for life, Ken. I'm just putting up with it.
The air and planet are here. Nobody is entitled to thanks for their
existence. I don't thank someone who puts me someplace that they happen
to have given me the things I need, just like you don't thank a jailer
that he feeds you.
KM> Your parents might have had you, but they didn't create you.
They sacrificed far more than any god for me.
KM> Your parents are not gods, noone should expect you to worship them.
Then why does GOD expect me to worship him?
KD> Why does an omnipotent God need to send a sacrifice in order to
KM> forgive?
KM> I don't know, that is the way it has to be, simply because he said it
was.
Simple minded thinking.
KM> God can forgive, and he has told us how to get that forgiveness. It's
KM> funny there are many here that belittle God because he said to man that
KM> man should not kill, but God himself (who has the right) had to kill
and
KM> it's such a big deal because he did not (not my opinion) follow the
laws
KM> that he gave man. God said that if you sin you must die, and you condemn
KM> him for doing what he said. God said I will sacrifice my Son so that
you
KM> do not have die. I have no idea why there must be the shedding of blood
KM> for sin, I'm not God I am not qualified to tell you why God made it
that
KM> way. All I can say is that that is the way it is, that is what God said
KM> has to be done, so that is the way that it must be.
Sorry, I'm not that gullible.
... I'm more humble than you are!!!
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:25:08
EID:1235 204bab20
MSGID: 1:207/212 8ea69bd3
REPLY: 1:271/460 311c6354
On (10 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> Sin comes down to one thing disobediance. If you did not have sin in
your
KM> life, you would not have even spoken against your mother, and she would
KM> never have given you reason to believe that she physically abused you
as a
KM> child.
If she had not abused me, I would never have had reason to speak against
her.
KM> Maybe you consider jealously a character flaw, I do not. I believe that
it
KM> is a natural feeling that goes right along with love.
You've never seen the destructiveness that comes with it, then. Very
definitely a character flaw. OR a flaw in the relationship.
KD> If he is perfect, then something that is godlike cannot be a
KD> character flaw.
KM> So jealousy must not be a character flaw.
Then why does that non character flaw lead to a good portion of
divorces?
KM> There is no other god.
Then why does he care if we worship them?
KM> You forget that Christ said, "I and my Father are one" They are the
same
KM> being, just different forms of the same being.
Then why is dying on the cross a sacrifice? God doesn't die, so he
didn't die. He just pretended.
KD> BTW - Please consider doing at least the most basic proofreading on
KM> your
KD> messages. The second and third graders I teach would be able to find
KD> your errors.
KM> Fine let them then.
Maybe I will sometime.
... You're an adult if you say "Ren and WHAT?"
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:28:25
EID:4f20 204bab80
MSGID: 1:207/212 39c3b1e9
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Karen Davis...
BJ> You see women do have a role may it be a silent one.
Some wonderful offer. [sarcastic glare].
Not good enough.
... "Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?"
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Larry Sites
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:29:46
EID:91d3 204baba0
MSGID: 1:207/212 a8671677
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 61e3a11f
On (09 Feb 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Karen Davis...
JH> (And that I suspect is the real difference between the two
JH> languages. Dutch is just like German except it has twice
JH> as many vowels.)
They *are* very similar - I can read some Dutch.
... "Then at a deadly pace It Came From Outer Space..."
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: 1 god
|Date: 12 Feb 96 15:33:35
EID:8366 204c7c20
MSGID: 1:207/212 514adc71
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Hector Plasmic...
BJ> You think of me as a foolish man because of my belief in the
BJ> bible and God Jesus Christ? If he doesn't exist why do so many hate
BJ> Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath
BJ> made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Brad, how can God make himself?
And if he's an eternal god, why is 2 or 3 days of suffering [actually
only a few hours, since the story has him taken down from the cross
before sundown friday] any suffering at all compared to even someone
having a headache for half a day?
... Disproving evolution does not prove creation.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 12 Feb 96 15:35:52
EID:4f20 204c7c60
MSGID: 1:207/212 1bf1ba6d
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Dan Ceppa...
BJ> I look into the pages of the bible know that it is true. I pray to
BJ> God and he answers me, I need no more evidence.
I prayed to god that he'd take me out of an abusive home when I still
believed. He didn't.
... A bad day BBSing is better than a good day at work!
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God
|Date: 12 Feb 96 15:36:39
EID:5f5c 204c7c80
MSGID: 1:207/212 21078c7d
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Don Martin...
BJ> get evidence from another sourse?
BJ> eg. If your math teacher showed you that 1 + 1 = 2 why would you
BJ> ask someone else? I would have to say that the math teacher is
BJ> correct and follow that theory, because they showed me it was
BJ> correct.
Any other math teacher would give you the same answer.
You can get evidence of the teacher's credentials.
You can figure the problem out for yourself.
BJ> God gave us his word. So why would I go looking for someone else to
BJ> tell me it is true?
Because there is no independent evidence. No evidence of this teacher's
credentials, no way to find out for yourself. Other teachers [other
religions] give different answers.
... I hit my CTRL key, but I'm still not in control.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: the Bible
|Date: 12 Feb 96 15:39:10
EID:589e 204c7ce0
MSGID: 1:207/212 b2dfc9b0
On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Martin Goldberg...
BJ> Tell me why the bible isn't evidence Martin? If you follow it
BJ> and do what is written in it you will get results. So how could
BJ> that not be evidence? If I read a cook book and followed the
BJ> directions I could bake a cake. So if I follow what is in the bible
BJ> I will lead a good life, and go to Heavan.
I have evidence of other people baking cakes by the recipe in a cook
book and coming out with delicious cakes. The result is known. I have
myself experienced a successful cake making. I have not experienced
heaven, and don't care to.
No cook book says that it is the ONLY cook book. I've got 20 or 30
sitting over there. Some of them even have differing recipes for the
same dish that all come out pretty good [though we generally find one we
like best] The Bible claims to be the only one, though I see many many
people living good lives without it or with other books. I challenge you
to find any aspect of my life that is GROSSLY against god's laws except
those of worship and belief. I don't lie, steal, murder, etc. I even
treat the parents who abused me emotionally and physically with respect
now that the abuse has stopped.
The goal in cooking is NOT to need a cook book. My husband rarely uses
one on his best dishes [he does most of the cooking since he's more
creative with it and enjoys it]. He has learned enough to be able to
create his own recipes and still come out with a good dish. Let's just
say that I've decided to make my own recipe for a good life, and I'm
sure it will come out fine in the end.
... What's Title Eye X? - Ronald Reagan
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word! (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal's not Quality fundy time
|Date: 05 Feb 96 13:41:06
EID:d5a0 20456d20
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088250
FMPT 1012
FR> Is it just my perception or has the quality of fundy we get
fr> through here declined over the years? It seemed to me that at one
fr> time some fundies could at least formulate a minimal argument to
fr> justify their occultism. Now it seems that they're no longer even
fr> willing to try.
jp> They are just not wasting time on YOU.
FR> But then you believe JFK is sill alive
FR> and will take over the planet with Henry Kissinger.
FR> Your opinions are pretty much easilly ignored.
You're a treasure to me Fred.
Later on, your statements will be ever so useful.
Keep up the good work !
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: RE: SILLY FUNDY CLAIMS
|Date: 05 Feb 96 15:28:42
EID:a444 20457b80
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088253
FMPT 1012
AS> [-----------]
HP> OTOH, we have plenty of evidence that folks are willing to die for
HP> their ideals, don't we, Al? Don't you see the simple explanation
HP> staring you in the blinders, Al? :-)
HP>
AS> Sure, let's try it. "I'm going to tell people I saw Jesus rise again.
AS> Maybe that'll make them believe in Jehovah! Of course, Jehovah did not
AS> approve of lying, and Jesus said the truth will make you free, but
AS> surely God will understand this once. Okay, guys, even if they torture
AS> you, whip you, even try to kill you, you are NEVER to let this slip
AS> your lips. All twelve of you. hey, maybe we can even rope another five
AS> hundred to agree...or spread the RUMOR of it, nobody'll check..." "Uh,
AS> Peter." "Yes, John?" "Don't you think if we claim Jesus rose from the
AS> dead, someone might check the tomb?" "There's that. We need to steal
AS> the body." (Utter silence.) "Peter?" "Yes, John?" "Let me get this
AS> straight. We are going to go against God's and Jesus' principles and
AS> tell a flat out LIE, and try to hoodwink thousands into believing in
AS> God on this incredible story. We are going to assume nobody is going
AS> to come back to Jerusalem to check any of the details. We're probably
AS> going to be tortured, imprisoned, perhaps even killed...but we can't
AS> EVER let it slip what's going on. Even when they are whipping us, or,
AS> say, crucifying us upside-down, or locking us in a cell with rats and
AS> moldy bread. You want us to do all this, on a fantastic LIE that most
AS> people will laugh at? And steal a body...a moldering, decaying,
AS> stinking dead body...to bolster this lie?" "Yes. And travel to distant
AS> ports of call spreading the lie, all without demanding money or
AS> anything." "Um. Pete?" "Yes, John?" "I'm outta here." (THe other ten
AS> disciples follow John's examples.) Peter. "But it WOULD work..."
AS> (Speaking to the empty room.)
Well done.
WBW, John
The NT account,
Jesus really rising from the dead,
is the only plausible explanation.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: A TALE OF 2 CITIES...
|Date: 05 Feb 96 15:41:42
EID:2ccf 20457d20
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088254
FMPT 1012
LB> Are you suggesting they ARE birds? Bats are mammals -- they have fur
LB> and bear live young, rather than lay eggs.
JS> I am not suggesting anything, other than what the Bible says. If it
JS> doesn't say they are not birds somewhere else, there is no
JS> contradiction. That is all...
LB> There is a contradiction with reality, Jim -- it contradicts the
LB> truth. So much for inerrancy.
LB> Now, which is it? Is the Bible inerrant, and bats ARE birds? Or are
LB> bats mammals, and the Bible errs when it departs from theology?
AS> Or could it be the Hebrew word actually means
AS> "beings larger than insects with wings"?
Or maybe actually means "flying critters" ?
AS> Every child grasps the similarity of winged
AS> creatures but has to be patiently told that a bat is not a bird, in
AS> the same fashion that a child groups all sea animals together as
AS> "fish" and it must be explained to them that dolphins and whales are
AS> not such. But of course, that is OUR grouping. When we classify, the
AS> classifications themselves are somewhat arbitrary. Some seem to defy
AS> them altogether, like the platypus, only to be later explained by
AS> further fine-tuning of the classifications. I think the ancient
AS> Hebrews (as probably did a lot of other ancient peoples) classed
AS> animals in large grouping by what they DID, not by their covering or
AS> their method of reproduction. Surely the ancient Hebrew scribes cannot
AS> be faulted for using words in a way that their PRIMARY audience, the
AS> ancient Hebrews understood, rather than our own classifications 3
AS> thousand years later. And to God, to whom all the web of life is one,
AS> it must amuse Him as much the way WE divide up life into neat little
AS> compartments as the ancient Hebrews' equally abitrary (although not
as
AS> systematic) classification. Notice in the list, the bats are mentioned
AS> LAST, as if the scribe is not sure where they fall, but lumped them
AS> with birds for lack of a better place to put them? The Hebrews had no
AS> word for "mammal" that we know of. That is OUR classification, not
AS> theirs.
I do admire the patient way you explain things.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 05 Feb 96 15:59:50
EID:a4e4 20457f60
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088255
FMPT 1012
-> On 01-30-96 20:27, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
->
DC> You do, of course, realize, that while your religion has been extant,
DC> the 98% of all the species that have _ever_ lived have gone extinct?
DC>
MH> Oh good grief! So now Christianity -- not corporate greed,
MH>
DC> Where did that Western corporate greed come from, Mikey?
Obviously not from the word and example of the NT Christ.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: alleged 'christians'...
|Date: 06 Feb 96 15:53:18
EID:5551 20467ea0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088257
FMPT 1012
RB> This 'sucking up to the heathens' accusation is reminiscent of another
RB> 'label': nigger lover.
JS> Hmmm...what's a 'nigger'?
RB> It's commonly used as a derogatory term for a minority. Not that
RB> different from 'heathen' really.
RB> Picture this: A small town in the year 1900 overwhelmingly supports
RB> segregation. But one oddball on the outskirts of town regularly
RB> associates with the 'minorities'. He even defends their civil rights.
RB> The good citizens of the town are almost unanimous in their opinion
of
RB> this upstart: he's a 'nigger lover'.
RB> Now just juggle the players slightly and you have 'heathen lover'. ___
So are heathens the persecuted minority of the HOLYSMOKE forum ?
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: flood
|Date: 06 Feb 96 16:39:14
EID:1a68 204684e0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088258
FMPT 1012
KD> On (02 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Karen Davis...
AM> Those witnesses are dead. Many paid with there lives and would not
AM> recant no matter what form of torture awaited them. Do you think
AM> Nero throwing christians to lions in the colliseum is just myth?
KD> Affidavits, please.
---------------------------- snip ---------------------------- From: Karen
Davis
KD> The Encyclopedia Britannica is NOT a valid source for anything.
---------------------------- snip ----------------------------
But if any man [or woman] be ignorant,
let him [or her] be ignorant. 1 Cor. 14:38
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: flood
|Date: 06 Feb 96 16:42:50
EID:1a68 20468540
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12088259
FMPT 1012
KD> On (03 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Karen
[-------------------]
AM> No, your wrong there, study other cultures that reject the
AM> Christian-Judeo ethic and see how well the women are treated.
AM> Asain and Arab cultures treat women as dogs.
KD> Asian cultures do a better job than Christian.
KD> It is not religious in that case. [---------]
Asian women are worse off equality wise
than American women a hundred years ago.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 06 Feb 96 17:04:16
EID:9830 20468880
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 1208825a
FMPT 1012
I disagree with fundamental Mormon theology,.... however,....
X>And Wyden won.I voted against Smith by voting for Wyden [although I don't
X>care for him much]. At least we don't have a Morman representing us now.
DW> Styx wanted a MORMON to win the election?
JH> Stands to reason.
JH> They are violently opposed to any form of social program,
They believe in working for a living, .....
building and producing, ... spotted owls be damned, ...
and,
they DO very much take care of their own.
Granted, this is bad news for nature worshippers and
bureaucrats accustomed to having a kingdom based on
enslaving people on a taxpayer funded welfare plantation.
JH> ..... have no morals, .....
Untrue. Mormons are typically highly moral model citizens.
JH>.....are totaly motivated by greed .......
As if materialism was conducive to altruism.
JH> .....and most of them are so far down the evolutionary chain
JH> that they still have gills. They make perfect Republicans.
Capitalism will endure as long as greed endures.
Communism will endure as long as envy endures.
Under Capitalism, man oppresses man.
Under Communism, it's the other way around !
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: posts
|Date: 06 Feb 96 17:22:52
EID:c981 20468ac0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 1208825b
FMPT 1012
AS> if anyone has posted to me in the last couple of weeks, please try
AS> again. This is the first time I have recieved any messages on this
AS> echo in a while. Something was wrong with the feed. Thanks.
AS>
AS> Annette Spence 2-4-96 --- Don't look back!
AS> Origin: If you can't Lay em, Slay em! - Freya (1:114/252)
While we're wondering,....
I recently sent some posts that were BOUND to offend
a lot of folks,.... I mean post that would have had
heathens bashing me for years to come,....
and not a peep have I heard,.....
So,.... I'm thinking I must not be getting out
let me know if you see this,...
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 06 Feb 96 18:34:18
EID:aa9b 20469440
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 1208825c
FMPT 1012
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to David Rice
<=- Quoting David Rice to Michael Hardy <=
[lot's of stuff from both deleted for brevity]
DR> Howsodamnever, Hitler was a Christian because he said he
DR> was--- there is no other test for who is and is not a Christian.
Rendering the label meaningless.
[you are admitting that the label has no connection
to what the label INSINUATES]
As the label "doctor" would become meaningless
if everyone were a real "doctor"
just because they call themself a "doctor."
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: One Staal
|Date: 12 Feb 96 08:24:47
EID:9409 204c4300
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Fredric Rice > Norbert Sykes : One Staal
BJ> I would like to point out some good news, I found about God[sic].
DR> He's dead.
ms> ...And there was much rejoicing.
FR> And another twenty took its place.
Well, there's your problem...you got the porch light on. Attracts
all kinds of loathsome bugs...};)
... CROWDS RUSHING TO SEE POPE TRAMPLE 6 TO DEATH. -- Headline (R.Lederer)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 12 Feb 96 08:26:58
EID:d7fe 204c4340
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Fredric Rice > Norbert Sykes : US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
> Terry Liberty-Parker > All:US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
> TL> << BY WIDE MARGINS IN EACH BODY, THE HOUSE AND SENATE PASSED
> TL> THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT OF 1996 WITH AN AMENDMENT THAT
> TL> PROHIBITS THE USE OF INDECENT SPEECH ONLINE AND ANOTHER THAT
> TL> BARS DISCUSSION OF ABORTION ON THE INTERNET. THE PRESIDENT,
> Fuck, I shoulda never been born. Ooops! Double Ooops!
> What idiots those posers be...
FR> This TLP clown is about as rabid as they can get.
This is the first time I've seen a post from them, so I had no
idea. Glad to know what the standard is, though...especially
around here...};)
... Golden Rule: Do one to others as they would do one to you.(R. Lederer)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 12 Feb 96 19:59:06
EID:3599 204c9f60
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
John Prewett > Lynda Bustilloz : of "bats" and "birds"
LB> You mean God's native language is Hebrew?
JP> Looks to me like the Hebrews had a word that basically meant
JP> "flying critter" that did not distinguish between
JP> "birds" and "bats" the way our language does.
JP> Some may find this hard to believe, but it is quite possible
JP> to live a long and happy life without having reason to
JP> distinguish between "birds" and "bats."
You mean that the Hebrews had a word that meant both bird and bat?
And what was that word, please? Unless...you're implying that
there was only one word for flying things, in which case, how did
they differentiate between them? In the passage cited, there is a
listing of a lot of different flying things...if there was a word
that just denoted flying things, then who put in all the extra
names, etc.? I'm willing to bet a year off of Jim Staal's life
that there are separate words for both bat and the other birds
listed, and that this is all a smokescreen. Hell, I feel so
confident, I'll bet TWO years of Jim's life...
... Holy acrimony is another name for marriage. -- Richard Lederer
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 0
|Date: 13 Feb 96 01:59:04
EID:58d2 204d0f60
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Sue Armstrong > Judith Bandsma : ONE LAST COMMENT 0
SA> Though somehow, I can't imagine Quakers haunting anyone. I keep
SA> getting imagaes of that guy on the oatmeal box going "Boo!"
"I prithee, kind sir, BOO!" ??? Works for me...
You know, it could almost be religious...I bet anyone scared by the
ghost of William Penn would REALLY be a quaker...};)
... Jesus was born because Mary had an immaculate contraption.(R. Lederer)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: One Staal not three
|Date: 13 Feb 96 02:03:12
EID:2b10 204d1060
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Fredric Rice > Brad Jackson : One Staal not three
bj> I would like to point out some good news, I found about God.
FR> You found some gods? Neat! Let me guess, you found them in the
FR> toilet, right?
...under some sofa cushions, along with 37 cents in change?
...in the pocket of a dirty pair of jeans?
...behind the lint filter on the dryer?
...where-ever your wallet and keys were hiding?
I see a potential for great sport here...Deity hide and seek. The
Deities all go hide, and we pick someone we don't care for to go
and look for them, kinda like a snipe hunt. The tough part will be
running around in the bushes with burlap sacks making Deity
noises...should get us arrested...};)
... Joshua lead the Hebrews in their victory in the battle of Geritol.(RL)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 12 Feb 96 08:38:40
EID:2236 204c44c0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 311ffdd9
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 311ace63
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
DW> 04 Feb 96 08:48, Andrew Masten wrote to Preston Simpson:
PS>> I'm a little vague on this. How does overproducing heavy elements
PS>> prevent stars from expelling them?
AM> Me too. I'll do some checking to find how much tolerance there is for
AM> that condition.
DW> Really? Translation: "I, Andrew Masten, don't really have a clue what
DW> any of this shit actually *means*. I just cut and pasted it and
DW> dishonestly forgot to give credit to the original author." Odd how it
DW> always seems to be you Christians that are guilty of such plagiarism.
David, you are a remarkable man. Do you call citing facts from a reference
source plagerizing? I don't have any degrees in science. All my life I have
read science magazines and books, but I don't claim to be an expert.
AM> Again your objection is void of evidence.
DW> Objections to (otherwise known as "poking holes in") your so-called
DW> evidence do not require evidentiary support, bozo. Go take that logic
DW> class I told you about.
You accuse me of being dishonest. Yet, you delete the post to which I
responded. As I recollect, Preston was making the bold claim that there's
life as we don't know it. He offered no evidence of this. Cited no authors
or sources. Yet you don't criticise him.
AM> Moreover you are well aware
AM> that many evolutionary assumptions are based on theories of
AM> uniformity.
DW> Which evolutionary assumptions? And you'd better know what the fuck
DW> you're talking about this time -- there *will* be a quiz.
For one carbon dating techniques.
As for your quiz.... Just tell me how many degrees you hold. I know you
have
a Phd. in knowitallism.
AM> Do you know of any life on gaseous planets. No carbon. No
AM> nitrogen.
DW> Are you making the claim that life only occurs on rocky planets? For
DW> that matter, are you making that claim that planets of any sort are
DW> required for life? I trust you have evidence to support this claim.
No, David. That old saw ain't going to cut the mustard. I asked him if
he knew of life on gaseous planets. And again you deleted his post.
PS>> Unwarranted conclusion. Why could it not have been Allah, Odin,
PS>> Zeus, Ahura Mazda, or any of the pantheon of entities that
PS>> humanity has or does worship?
DW> I see you failed to answer his question. Why must this designer you
DW> speak of be Jehovah?
If you don't believe we are created, what difference does it make? If
you do, you can compare religions for yourself.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Evolungelicals
|Date: 12 Feb 96 09:22:59
EID:303d 204c4ac0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 311ffdda
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 311ace93
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> AM>> Huh? what does "natural science" mean to you?
DW> This was not an answer. It was another question.
It answers itself.
DW>> Stop shuffling and answer the question.
AM>> Must you continue to showcase your ignorance? According to
AM>> Micheal Ruse, (please don't ask me who he is as your credibility
AM>> is already sinking fast) "The creationists believe the world
AM>> started miraculously. But miracles lie outside of science, which
AM>> by definition deals with the natural, the repeatable, that which
AM>> is governed by law."
DW> Now others are starting to ask you similar questions. See what happens
DW> when you repeatedly try to dodge a simple question like the one I
DW> asked at the top of this message?
AM> I answered the question to my satisfaction.
DW> That'd be wonderful, if you were the one who had asked the question.
DW> However, I think we both know that it was *me* who asked the question.
DW> Not only have you not answered it to my satisfaction, you have not
DW> answered it at all. Please do so now.
Tell me if you found out who Micheal Ruse is and I'll answer your
silly question again.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: 1 god
|Date: 11 Feb 96 15:24:00
EID:ef54 204b7b00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 13:05, Brad Jackson got back to Hector Plasmic
BJ> You think of me as a foolish man because of my belief in the
BJ> bible and God Jesus Christ? If he doesn't exist why do so many hate
No, you are very mistaken about that. He _knows_ you are a
foolish man.
... Save your soul -- don't let the xtians have it. : Hector Plasmic
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SCREW UP
|Date: 11 Feb 96 15:44:00
EID:ff69 204b7d80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-09-96 07:55, Judith Bandsma got back to Martin Goldberg
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Robert Berndt <=-
MG> Go back and read the first amendment very carefully. It's jackasses
MG> like you that make me very scared.
JB>
JB> And with the signing of the telecomm bill, the first amendment has
JB> just been handed to those jackasses to do with as they will.
The idiots don't have a clue as to what they have done, other than
to try and lock thinks in their crowded closets.
JB> Everybody says that the ban on discussion of abortion on the net is
JB> unconstitutional and will be overturned. For the moment, however, it
JB> IS illegal.
I'd say "Fuck that shit", but this message probably won't get to
you, per the above.
JB> Let's see, I can have an abortion if I want to but I can't DISCUSS the
JB> topic over an electronic medium. yeah...right!
The first Ammendent gives us our rights, the second supports our
rights to it. Trust me, it's one of my taglines, both here and in
Politics...
JB> ... Tagline Deleted: Nothing funny about this shit.
That _is_ my tagline! And, used quite appropriately, I will add.
I'd like to charge for it, but I'd rather see it put to use as
you used it. All we can hope for is to elect some one that has
a brain. All we have gotten are "Info-mercials" disguised as
politians.
... Defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign & elected!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 11 Feb 96 15:48:00
EID:b56e 204b7e00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-09-96 16:33, John Brawley got back to Hector Plasmic
JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
HP> The lack of an evidenced deity, perhaps? :-)
JB> Perhaps, but that's useless in arguing with a Fundamentalist anti-
JB> science creationist, eh? ;)
I've seen your silly "arguments", John. You are right, there
is no point.
... "I, John, don't know what the fuck I'm talking about"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Evolungelicals
|Date: 11 Feb 96 15:51:00
EID:2541 204b7e60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-09-96 04:32, David Worrell got back to Andrew Masten
AM> I answered the question to my satisfaction.
DW> That'd be wonderful, if you were the one who had asked the question.
DW> However, I think we both know that it was *me* who asked the question.
DW> Not only have you not answered it to my satisfaction, you have not
DW> answered it at all. Please do so now.
Whatever you do, do not hold you breath on a direct answer from
Andy!
... "It's because you ignored my evidence of the unevidenced!" M. Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Fundamentalists R Us
|Date: 11 Feb 96 15:57:00
EID:5f48 204b7f20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-09-96 04:08, David Worrell got back to David Worrell
DW> + Origin: TRAVEL ONLINE / ST. LOUIS ONLINE - (314) 561-4956
DW> (1:100/635)
DW> Who the fuck are you, and why are you using my name?
Who ever he's, he's got to be seriously perverted to have
ever considered using your name. :)
Seems like the sysops or node boss doesn't have a clue. Must be
a board run by Staal....
... "Better than a poke in the eye with sharp stick!" J. Lackey
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 11 Feb 96 16:03:00
EID:1d39 204b8060
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 10:45, Brad Jackson got back to Kelsey Bjarnason
KB> such as your "God"), will you simply believe me? No? But you
KB> believe that other story.
BJ> I can help you there Kelsey, JuJu isn't a God.
Do you happen to have _evidiece_, outside you silly bible,
to support that little claim?
After all, Star Goat ate you little god and godling and got
a case of the farts over their lack of credibility. They are
now a cloud of methane in the Gamma Quadrant.
... "Face it: your god is an asshole.": Marilyn Burge
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 11 Feb 96 16:06:00
EID:1d39 204b80c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 10:45, Brad Jackson got back to Preston Simpson
PS>This is circular at best, Brad. Do you enjoy being dizzy?
BJ> This may help Preston. What evidence do you have that the bible
BJ> is false and not the word of God?
This may help, Brain Jed:
Got any evidence that you silly god exists outside of your little
tiny single-synapsed brain?
... I knew Jack Shit. He was a good friend. You don't know Jack Shit!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 11 Feb 96 16:34:00
EID:4e61 204b8440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 04:20, Kenneth Mcabee got back to Martin Goldberg
MG> We do not need to believe tht little men playing ninepins causes
KM> thunder.
KM> I know caused most of it too. And I don't believe that little men
KM> playing ninepins causes thunder either.
You are fast on your way to the cure. Just take the next step
and you will be out off your addiction for good.
... "After all, unlike your god, we are civilized."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 11 Feb 96 16:44:00
EID:3f06 204b8580
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-09-96 23:24, Styx Allum got back to Karen Davis
> I'll tell you why we haven't made much progress - Conservinazi
> or liberal, most of our legislators are MALE.
SA> [yawn] Women outnumber men. That means that more women are
SA> eligible to vote than men. Obviously, women therefor vote for men.
Yet. Styx, men still out number women into both elective and
selective offices.
Think about that...
... Politics -from: poly=many + tics=blood sucking parasites
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God
|Date: 11 Feb 96 16:53:00
EID:1249 204b86a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 10:45, Brad Jackson got back to Ryan Shaw
RS> BJ> is also your God. Jesus is God of all things!
RS>I'm sorry but I don't share your delusions.
BJ> I have no delusions.
Yes you do. You are spouting off about a god that you
can't give evidence of it's existance.
Yep, you are delusional.
... Brad wears Barney underwear!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One God
|Date: 11 Feb 96 16:55:00
EID:1249 204b86e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 13:05, Brad Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
FR> If you have evidence for the existance of _any_ deities, how about
BJ> I have lots of evidence, it is called the King James Bible. Or
DC> Ever hear of Circular Logic?
DC> Didn't think you did, or you would have provided evidence.
BJ> I am not the one using circular Logic.
You are making the ole 78 RPM records look slow.
Either provide the evidence or take a powder in run because
you don't have any to provide, fundy.
... If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One God Jesus
|Date: 11 Feb 96 16:57:00
EID:84b2 204b8720
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 13:05, Brad Jackson got back to Scot Bear
SB> book. Your spelling is atrocious!
BJ> I am glad you are watching out for me! Maybe you could help me
BJ> with my spelling and I could help you with the bible?
I'm sure that Scot is more than capable of taking in to the
trashcan.
... "Aren't unevidenced supernatural claims _FUN_!": Hector
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Re: One God not three
|Date: 11 Feb 96 17:02:00
EID:b0e4 204b8840
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-09-96 19:32, Kelsey Bjarnason got back to Brad Jackson
BJ> I think you have me mixed up with one of your other friends,
my
BJ>name is Brad, not moron.
KB> Name: Brad.
KB> Category: Jeezoid.
KB> IQ Level: Moron.
KB> Got it now, or shall we write it on stone tablets for you?
ROLFLMAO!
So, do you use a lighter bat for swing, or a larger one for power?
In any event, the pitcher is taking a shower!
... So, how come there are no "talking snakes" nowadays? - Scot Vertullo
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One God not three
|Date: 11 Feb 96 17:05:00
EID:9958 204b88a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 10:45, Brad Jackson got back to Preston Simpson
BJ> You want more evidence that there is a God, Named Jesus. Ok go
BJ> look in the mirror. If it wasn't for God creating Adam you would not
BJ> exist.
Your Jewish? Funny, you don't sound that way. Got any evididence
that Adam (man) and Eve existed? Don't forget the prior part that
your god exist first!
... "Any damned fool can believe." Preston Simpson
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One God not three
|Date: 11 Feb 96 17:07:00
EID:9958 204b88e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 13:05, Brad Jackson got back to Martin Goldberg
BJ> circles. Do you believe in Enstins theories? How do you know they
Just who the fuck is "Enstins"?
... Messiah looking for jailbait = Jesus of Nabokov.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One God not three
|Date: 11 Feb 96 17:10:00
EID:9958 204b8940
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 13:05, Brad Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
BJ> What evidence would make you happy?
Virtually anything that you don't spout out of your little
book of fairy tales tha is testable. Got any?
BJ> I look into the pages of the bible know that it is true. I pray to
Just how many RPMs is your head up to now, fundy?
... Sacrilege: "telling an idiot the truth".
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: Epilepsy
|Date: 12 Feb 96 10:25:00
EID:9856 204c5320
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
I have a friend who's child has epilepsy. He's 4 yrs old and
has Complex/Partial Atonic Seizures, aka "Drop Attacks. He's
currently taking Mysoline.
Does anyone know of a better treatment?
Also, is there another Echo that may be more appropriate for
getting additional information on this subject?
Thanks for the help!
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Bartender!
|Date: 12 Feb 96 11:08:00
EID:83af 204c5900
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-09-96 11:56, J.j. Hitt got back to Robert Jackson
JH>> The Late J.J. Hitt
RJ> Ah, I see Asmodiddley finally gotcha. My condolences.
JH> I'm just getting ready for the Big Event.
JH> It may take me awhile to adjust to being dead, so I'm
JH> doing warm ups.
Shouldn't that be "cool-downs" to room temperature? If so,
you could use Staal's brain as a standard.
... Shit, gotta run. There's data that needs to be faked. - M. Goldberg
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 12 Feb 96 12:50:00
EID:bc70 204c6640
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 05:09, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
AM> There were 500 witnesses to Christs ressurection, is that proof
DC> not proof that we want, it's evidence. Understand the difference.
JB> Isn't it strange that not *one* of those 500 witnesses seems to have
JB> been someone 'official' who would have at least mentioned it to someone
That sure does sound just a bit suspicious...
JB> themselves, or even had their name recorded as being a witness. Makes
JB> you wonder, don't it?
It doesn't, if you choose to accept the argumentum a populari in
order to make it work. :)
... "Dave, my mind. It's going. Hey! Let me tell you about Jesus."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 12 Feb 96 12:58:00
EID:6522 204c6740
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 14:12, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
RJ> lost on the turn and got stuck with the bagpipes.
DC> even tah dis verry day, tha the bagpipes will still curl the skin
DC> off'on yar baack.
SA> Aye, laddie. And if _I_ were to get a hold of a set of pipes,
SA> it'd scare hell out of ANYONE.
Puts a different twist on the old analogy, making it into a "woman
trying to wrestle an octopus".
Anhow, they usually have a piper band for the annual Irrigation
Festival Parade. They tune up, if you canna say tha', in the
lot across the street from where I work. No matter what anyone
says, the pipes really do call to Danny boy... :)
... Before the Borg, there was Jesus.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: persevere
|Date: 12 Feb 96 13:01:00
EID:4a29 204c6820
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 14:17, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
JS> To quote the right honorable Jimmy Swaggart, 'It's just none of your
JS> business', Hector.
DC> Is this before or after your Sainted Swaggart diddled with
DC> Debra and attempted to have her daughter be part of his godly
SA> What I find especially revolting is that the title "Right
SA> Honourable" is usually reserved for Prime Ministers in
The very juxtaposition of those terms with Swaggart's name is
revolting.
SA> monarchy would have that little slime Swaggart as a PM. Even Mulroney
SA> would be a better choice.
Hmmm, you really must hate that slime Swaggart to go with Mulroney!
... Evolution may be a theory, but it's a damned good theory!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Charles Ring
|Sub: position
|Date: 12 Feb 96 13:07:00
EID:b105 204c68e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 22:59, Charles Ring got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>> If you happen to have a fetus in _your womb_, you are most
DC>> welcome to make your comments. ITMT, until you grow a womb
DC> Not equally. When you run the risk of dying due to a pregnancy, get
DC> back to me.
CR> Nothing is ever 100% equal, but one person's death can almost equally
Trying to play _Animal Farm_? It was done far better by Orwell.
CR> destroy others' lives. It's still nonsense that men have no legitimate
CR> interest in the matter.
I never said that can't have any input. I just said that the
final say can only be made by the woman.
CR> Of course you know that: many men favor
CR> abortion because it's a convenient way to cover their tracks.
The only tracks that you ar familiar with is the unconnected
siding that runs through your head. A man cannot have an abortion,
nore can he force one on a woman. No matter how you try to make it,
it is only the woman that can make the final choice.
DC> ... How do we want Charles Ring? Pregnant!
CR> The impossible is not worth wishing for.
Until you can accomplish the impossible, leave the decision to
the woman that can do what you can't.
... Worship 3 gods, for the price of 1... Christianity
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 12 Feb 96 13:10:00
EID:b6a6 204c6940
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 15:49, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>-> On 01-30-96 15:54, Katherine Wintersnight got back to John Prewett
DC>him to have forgotten. May have taken him a nanosecond or less
DC>to do a core dump...
KW> Sounds like a very small system, with few options and obsolete
KW> hardware.
He makes the Co-Co look like state of the art!
... "God breaks his laws only when necessary.": Mikey Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Why
|Date: 12 Feb 96 13:15:00
EID:fdbb 204c69e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-09-96 19:49, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> about an expensive airlift to move them to areas that they
DC> are indigenous.
JH>
JH> I'll be damned if I can remember all of the details, but they
JH> were rounded up by a contractor and healthy animals were either
JH> retirement in a petting zoo. Such animals probably ended up as
JH> Alpo as well.
It's truly amazing... The people that have moved here have come
for the "country seting". Now, they are doing their best to get
rid of the animals that make it the country.
On idiot went to far as to propose that people on unemployment
be used to keep the elk off of his Private property....
... You can't teach an old dogma new tricks.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: position
|Date: 12 Feb 96 13:17:00
EID:bde8 204c6a20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89220E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-07-96 23:37, Rob Burcham got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> welcome to make your comments. ITMT, until you grow a womb
DC> of your own, do leave those that have one to make their own
RB> Maybe women should decide whether or not men can have
RB> vasectomies. After all, that turns off the faucet on all
Close... As he was bitching about how things can't be 100%
equal, perhaps it could be a self-castration with a rusty knife.
You think he'd go along with the idea?
... Doing my part to piss off the Religious Reich.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: BUS CRASH
|Date: 12 Feb 96 23:41:00
EID:bb42 204cbd20
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 311fd064
REPLY: 1:154/69.0 311ac75f
-=| On 08 Feb 96 22:01, Scot Bear said: |=-
>> possibilities as well. Wish me the best, what?
SB> Good luck...BTW, I didn't know you were unemployed!
I'm not, sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm trying to change venues, however.
Someday, I'll have time to come back... (Light a candle, huh, Fred?)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Joy...in salvation...
|Date: 12 Feb 96 23:52:01
EID:9647 204cbe80
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 311fd2d3
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 311c4879
-=| On 10 Feb 96 02:25, Preston Simpson said: |=-
PS> psimpson@odin.bucs.cbu
Thanks, Preston.
DO>> How's the school, BTW?
PS> It's school. Not much exciting is happening.
Hope things are looking up.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Joy...in salvation...
|Date: 13 Feb 96 00:01:02
EID:9fef 204d0020
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 311fd538
-=| On 10 Feb 96 08:04, Judith Bandsma said: |=-
JB> Here's my new one, if you want it. jbandsma@concentric.net
Thanks m'dear!
JB> If not, just dump it in the trash.
Turn off the pout mode, you know why I'm mostly absent! Thanks for the
kind
thoughts, though! :)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Countdown: ONE DAY LEFT
|Date: 13 Feb 96 07:58:48
EID:9348 204d3f40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 11804286
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 620ed6c5
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Asmodeus:
JJH> Today is Day THIRTY FOUR of Failed Satanic Curse Number ONE.
JJH> Nothing has happened.
A> I already told you, butt-fuck, nothing will as I was only fucking
A> with your mind.
Much like Asmodeus' church-masters fuck with HIS jeezoid mind...every week.
A> I swear, how do fools like you manage to stay alive.
Simple, Ass-modeus. They don't need a gawd in order to live. YOU do.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 12 Feb 96 01:39:08
EID:a6c6 204c0ce0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311e9a6d
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311b9659
09 Feb 96 13:13, Don Martin wrote to Preston Simpson:
PS>> True. I'm running Windows 95 without significant
PS>> problems-
DM> He who has Windows does not need any more problems.
Climb your happy ass the fuck back up in that Model T and ride on out of
here, granddad... :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: cashless society
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:19:36
EID:f124 204baa60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311e5ddd
REPLY: 1:245/100 311e5d58
Dan Post finally answered the question, in CONSPRCY.
06 Feb 96 14:33, Dan A. Post wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> How did you know they had cliterectomies, Dan? Was it something
DW>> like, "Oh, hi Mr. Cashregister Repairman! By the way, I've had a
DW>> cliterectomy."? Explain it to me, Danny.
DP> Do you not understand the signifigance of the 'dot' in the centre of
DP> the forehead? My understanding is that this mark is placed there
DP> following the procedure, and these women had this mark. All you have
DP> to do is walk down the street of any major city in North America
DP> (except maybe in the southern US), and you will likely see someone
DP> with this mark in less than half an hour. I already explained this,
DP> are you saying that this isn't the case?
I thought his answer would amuse some of you.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Fundamentalists R Us
|Date: 11 Feb 96 20:41:17
EID:5b36 204ba520
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311e54f9
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org dec0a03d
08 Feb 96 16:28, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Preston Simpson:
KW> I'll have to try that the next time the cats knock my glasses off the
KW> headboard. My usual MO is to sit very still and howl for help. The
KW> first time Bear witnessed the panic attack if I couldn't find my
KW> glasses nearly got him and his perfect 20\20 vision hurt. He thought
KW> that it was funny, and tried teasing me with the old 'you're getting
KW> warmer' routine.
Bear doesn't sound too bright. Was this before or after you told him about
forcibly introducing your ex to the spider? :)
(You realize, of course, that the spider has gone down in Holysmoke Lore?)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Home page (you care, I know you do).
|Date: 12 Feb 96 02:03:27
EID:39ee 204c1060
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311ea036
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 311d1618
10 Feb 96 17:03, Preston Simpson wrote to All:
PS> For anyone with access to the Internet, I now have a home page. It
PS> isn't much to look at, but if you're interested, it's at
PS> www.cbu.edu/~psimpson, so have a blast.
I liked your vital stats page, but your mailto link appears to be fucked.
----- Transcript of session follows -----
<<< HELO ns.utk.edu
<<< MAIL FROM:
<<< RCPT TO:
<<< DATA
421 Host odin.bucs.cbu not found for mailer tcp.
550 ... Host unknown
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Received: from ns.utk.edu (TCHM09A2.RMT.UTK.EDU) by utkux.utcc.utk.edu (5.x/2.8s-UTK.UTCC)
id AA09377; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 02:01:38 -0500
Message-Id: <311EE5C7.501B@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 02:01:27 -0500
From: David Worrell
Organization: New World Order
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: psimpson@odin.bucs.cbu
Subject: home page
X-Url: http://www.cbu.edu/~psimpson/
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'd like a link, if you don't mind.
http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~diogenes/
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: netmail
|Date: 11 Feb 96 20:53:17
EID:ff14 204ba6a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311e575d
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 311ad746
08 Feb 96 00:07, Robert Jackson wrote to Ryan Shaw:
RJ> Aww, shit. I took it to net since I thought it'd be a novel
RJ> idea to take non-topic discussion off the echo. Anyway, I
God loves you, Robert.
There, see how easy it was to bring back on topic?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: netmail
|Date: 12 Feb 96 01:53:56
EID:b9d9 204c0ea0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311e9ddc
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 11c08f89
10 Feb 96 00:04, Ryan Shaw wrote to Robert Jackson:
RJ>> Aww, shit. I took it to net since I thought it'd be a
RJ>> novel idea to take non-topic discussion off the echo.
RS> Can I reach you via netmail at the BBS you post from? I got lots of
RS> info for you. It may actually be of some use.
I case Fido eats this message before it gets to Robert, yes you can reach
him via netmail there. I do.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Offensive ASCIIs
|Date: 12 Feb 96 01:40:34
EID:7b09 204c0d00
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311e9b85
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311b965a
09 Feb 96 13:17, Don Martin wrote to J.J. Hitt:
JH>> Maybe if we rigged them so that they connected to the brake
JH>> lights. Step on the brakes and he gets an errection.
DM> I saw a nifty switch plate last month: it was a picture
DM> of the Pope with the switch toggle sticking out the front of
DM> his robes. Perhaps the same thing could be done with the
DM> crucifixion: The normal ASCII we see here from time to time
DM> would be "off".
I went to a costume party at the Peabody (in Memphis, the *other* East Tennessee)
one year for Halloween. One of my fellow party-goers was dressed as the
Pope. As the night wore on, everybody got drunker and drunker. I noticed
the Pope standing in a dark corner with an extra pair of shapely legs coming
out the bottom of his robes.
I saw the Pope getting a blowjob. :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: One Goat
|Date: 12 Feb 96 01:26:30
EID:f9bf 204c0b40
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311e9786
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 11804215
10 Feb 96 00:46, Steve Rose wrote to Scot Bear:
>> your day. Many people are diceived by things others have
>> told them,
SB>> I think you should get your nose out of the bible and get a
SB>> spelling book. Your spelling is atrocious! Do it!
SR> But wait! If Brad didn't have so many misspelled words in his
SR> posting...how would we ever know he is a fundy??
The glazed lo... oh, wait, we can't see his eyes, can we? For one thing,
this is not a visual medium and for another, his head is so far up his ass
that it is doubtful that *anyone* can see his eyes. :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Tim Pauly
|Sub: Revised (by ME) HS list
|Date: 11 Feb 96 21:13:53
EID:65c3 204ba9a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311e5d2b
REPLY: 1:2613/377 56b99b50
09 Feb 96 07:54, Tim Pauly wrote to Martin Goldberg:
TP> Here we go... >sigh< >grin<
>> TP> a) I believe in the God of the Bible.
>> Can you present non biblicval evidence that your god is real?
TP> No need to. Say we're both riding in a car and we meet a semi head on
TP> at 60 MPH. If I'm wrong, according to you, I'm just non-existant. If
TP> you're wrong, well... I think you'd have more to lose.
Pascals Wager? Don't they teach you xtians anything new these days? What
if Zeus is the real creator? The both you and Martin have a lot to lose.
What about Krishna? Odin?
TP> The physical evidence, as far as I am concerned, all around me.
Hmmm... no gods here. Got a photograph, by chance?
TP> All I have to do is look at the creation in this world, (i.e all
TP> living things), and the way they are formed so beautifully and
TP> wondrously,
Get somebody to kick you in the balls and tell me that again, ok? A third
year civil engineering student could design a better body than God did.
TP> and that's my evidence. Darwin's theory is laughable, at best. I
TP> find it pretty amusing that one would actually believe a theory
TP> that states that living things evolved from a micro-organism. I
TP> guess that little micro-organism eventually grew, and knew it
TP> needed ears to hear with, so it grew them. It knew it needed
TP> eyes to see with, so then, after millions of years, it grew them
TP> too... It knew it needed to feel things, so it grew nerves. And
TP> doggone if it couldn't enjoy breakfast, so it grew taste buds as
TP> well >g<... :)
Do you enjoy showing your ignorance of biology for all to see?
TP> Funny that some believe that planets evolved from balls of gas.
Plnaets don't evolved, dipshit.
>> TP> b) I try to live by the Bible.
>> Hmmmm...do you dash out the brains of children and rape the
>> women if your god commands you to?
TP> My God would never command me to do so. What makes you think He would?
Try Psalms 137:9, Bible-believer.
>> Do you have evidence for this hell? Or heaven? Why is it
TP> Physical evidence, no.
Thank you for your honesty. Go play in traffic now, ok?
---
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Dearth before Dishonor
|Date: 13 Feb 96 08:06:27
EID:18af 204d40c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31207eab
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 311d0571
All agog that somebody has taken him seriously enough to
compose an answer to his ravings, Andrew Masten said "Death
before Dishonor" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> While you named a couple of people you labelled as
DM> "scientists", you neglected to cite the peer-reviewed
DM> publications from which you took your "quotes." Otherwise,
AM> The first scientist I quoted was Paul Davies. He is an author of
AM> the following books (and others)
AM> All the Observed Universe
AM> The Cosmic Blueprint:New discoveries in natures creative ability
AM> to order the universe
AM> Superforce: the search for a grand unified theory
These appear to be books that he has published himself
without undergoing the peer review process. Are you aware
of what that process is? The same appears to be the case
with the Greenstein book cited below. Being "in the library"
does NOT make it "peer reviewed."
AM> The whole reason I presented this evidence, was in response to the
AM> claim that my belief was just a hoary mental construct with no foot
AM> hold in reality.
What belief? That some supernatural being is responsible
for the universe? It IS rather difficult to distinguish that
from the product of human imagination, yes.
AM> Yet, this postulate that there's life as we don't
AM> know it is nothing more than an hoary mental construct. There's no
AM> foot hold in reality, its just fantasy, fodder for 'Star Trek".
AM> Present your evidence for life as we don't know it and maybe you have
AM> something.
Don't be any more ridiculous than is absolutely
necessary to convince your readers of your fatuity:
presenting one's "evidence for life as we don't know it" is
an invitation to silliness. At issue is the fact that, in
absence of any evidence to the contrary, you have no reason
to _limit_ the possibilities to one.
DM> millions). Judging by your writing style and general
DM> approach, it is possible that you lack the scientific
DM> background to comprehend all this, but should you wish to,
DM> the writings of Gould are a good place to start, since he is
DM> one of the first proposers of the punk eek theory and since
DM> he has a good, clear prose style.
AM>
AM> Darwins classic theory of evolution predicted finds of fossils
AM> with gradual changes leading to greater complexity. Since that
AM> didn't pan out the theory had to 'evolve' to account
AM> for it.
Yup. That is the way that science works. Theories that
do not work are replaced by those that better explain the
observed facts. This is just one of the areas in which
"creation science" cannot be considered valid science.
AM> And your right the veritable explosion of a variety of life in a
AM> geologically short period of time such as the cambrian (sp?)
AM> period, is more predictive of creation hypothesis, and of course
AM> we must not allow that.
You here show yourself to be not only a dimbulb, but a
DISHONEST dimbulb. My summary of the evidence upon which
punk eek is based referred to long periods of little change
in lifeforms followed by a short period of rapid change: you
duplicitiously suggest that I talked of some _initial_
explosion of lifeforms (the only scenario "predictive of
creation hypothesis"), which I did not. I therefore put it
to you, Andrew Masten, that you are a lying sack of shit.
How do you respond to the charge?
AM> Ergo "punk eek theory" which takes in
AM> account for the lack of fossil evidence. The weakness of punctuated
AM> equilibrium is its dependence on mutations as its source for change,
AM> and less on selection. We see little evidence of beneficial
AM> mutations.
Who is we, oh lying sack of shit? Have you a dog turd in
your pocket? For one small example, the fact that after many
million--perhaps billions--of years of vulnerability to the
ravages of penicillin, whole strains of bacteria have become
fairly immune to the stuff in the past half century shows
that beneficial change can take place fairly rapidly and can
be passed to descendants. That is all that is needed for
either classical evolution or punk eek to work.
DM> Many people who saw the risen Elvis seven years ago have
DM> died, too. Jim Jones' flock of 900+ paid with their lives
DM> for their peculiar beliefs, and we still have non-recanting
DM> Branch Davidians wandering about. One helluva lot of people
DM> died willingly for the Third Reich. A helluva lot more for
DM> the Glorious Communist Revolution. You would have us suppose
DM> that a willing death somehow makes true the thing believed
DM> in. All it does is demonstrate the intensity with which that
DM> belief is held. Nobody here argues against the fact that
DM> people DO believe stuff.
AM> In your examples above, the people died for things they truly
AM> believed in. And as you said, "Nobody argues against the fact that
AM> people do believe stuff". The real question is would someone
AM> forfeit there life for a belief that they knew was just a lie. Most
AM> of the Apostles died for there claim that Jesus Christ rose from
AM> the dead. As you said, they might do it if they really believed He
AM> rose from the dead. But would they, if they knew it was all a 'made
AM> up story to begin with'? Someone might lose thier life for the
AM> truth, but for a hoax?
You would have us suppose that dying for a belief
makes that belief valid and true. I say that it does not. I
do not believe that I have ever said that I thought the
apostles were lying (as you do when you misrepresent what
others say), but rather that they were honest and really
believed in whatever it was they were all excited about. The
same may be said for Elvis witnesses and Nazies: firm
convictions, even to the point of a willing death, are no
less firm for being based on bullshit. All that is necessary
is that the believer really BELIEVE in the bullshit. This
does make it pretty tough to distinguish belief from
delusion in the absence of corroborating evidence, but that
is your problem, not mine. And that is why corroborating
evidence is such a valuable commodity when you are trying to
convince somebody of validity of the belief you are so
excited about.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God
|Date: 12 Feb 96 13:42:41
EID:b7d0 204c6d40
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31207eac
Brad Jackson said "One God" to Don Martin,
adding:
BJ> What you ask me for, none bible evidence. Why do you have to
BJ> get evidence from another sourse?
Because all beliefs have their "bibles": the Muslims
have the Koran, the Hindus the Vedas, the Christians the
Bible, etc. In each case, the book is a form of propaganda
(literally an official means of propagating the faith), and
each book makes certain claims about the nature of reality
in conflict with the claims of the other books. The only way
of determining between them which has the best claim about
the nature of reality is to find corroborating evidence from
some disinterested (that is, non-propagandistic) source.
BJ> eg. If your math teacher showed you that 1 + 1 = 2 why would you
BJ> ask someone else?
I would not. Once I had comprehended that "1" is a
number arbitrarily assigned to unity, that "2" is another
number arbitrarily assigned to the double of unity, that "+"
is a symbol arbitrarily assigned to the additive function,
and that "=" is a symbol arbitrarily assigned to the
function of correspondence, the truth of the proposition
would be self evident. However, your example is inapt: "1 +
1 = 2" is a simple, precise statement (precise because
arbitrary and synthetic) that is essentially not comparable
to the fuzzy, imprecise statement (that you would probably
NOT want termed "arbitrary and synthetic" anyway) "a god
exists."
BJ> God gave us his word. So why would I go looking for someone else to
BJ> tell me it is true?
You ASSUME up front that "a god exists." Those of us who
do not make such assumptions do not share your complacency
about evidence or your inability to notice the masturbatory
quality inherent in "God exists because the Bible says so:
the Bible is true because it is the word of God."
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Bartender!
|Date: 12 Feb 96 13:52:27
EID:2636 204c6e80
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31207ead
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 61df2ac4
J.J. Hitt said "Bartender!" to Robert Jackson,
adding:
JH>> The Late J.J. Hitt
RJ> Ah, I see Asmodiddley finally gotcha. My condolences.
RJ>
JH> No, not yet.
JH> I'm just getting ready for the Big Event.
JH> It may take me awhile to adjust to being dead, so I'm
JH> doing warm ups.
Wouldn't "chill outs" be more appropriate? Done
rigorously, of course.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: The Constellation
|Date: 12 Feb 96 14:06:37
EID:8f69 204c70c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31207eae
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89200E27
Dan Ceppa said "The Constellation" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> Its sister ship, The Constellation, is about two blocks
DM> Baltimore. It is berthed in the Inner Harbor.
DC> Has it been there for a while? I was only to Baltimore once,
DC> but it was on business. Didn't get to do any sightseeing...
I had a job here back in '83, and it was here then--with
rigging, yet. If you're ever in Bawlmer again, let me know.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: David Robins
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 12 Feb 96 14:09:56
EID:08d6 204c7120
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31207eaf
REPLY: 1:247/312.0 311d3fb8
David Robins said "dinosaurs?" to Roland,
adding:
DR> The "Taylor trail" is a recently discovered path that shows a human
DR> track running through a dinosaur track. That and other evidence,
DR> samples, etc. seem to indicate that man and dinosaur did once co-exist.
DR> I forget the name of the lead scientist in that discovery but I can
DR> find it if you want.
Please do. And if this "scientist" is from the ICR, do
you promise to go drown yourself in a mop bucket?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 12 Feb 96 16:35:02
EID:247d 204c8460
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31207eb0
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 311d0575
Doing his dead level best to avoid producing any evidence
for his claims about imaginary playumates, Andrew Masten
said "flood" to Preston Simpson, adding:
PS> In courtroom parlance, it is not necessary to do so. You are making
PS> the claim that Jesus rose from the dead. This is an extraordinary claim
PS> and the rough equivalent of accusing someone of a crime. As the maker
PS> of the claim, you are obligated to present evidence that the claim is
PS> true. Until you can show that it *is* true, then we are not obligated
PS> to believe it. And as you are making an extraordinary claim, you'll
PS> need to back it up with extraordinary evidence.
AM> How is it when you make the extraordinary claim that there could
AM> be life 'as we don't know it' you don't apply this standard to
AM> yourself? But to answer your question, the people who claimed that
AM> Christ rose from the dead staked there lives on it. Others have
AM> sacrificed there lives for things they thought were true also. So
AM> did these people sacifice their lives for a hoax? Would they face
AM> torture and death for what they knew in there hearts was a lie?
The ESSENCE of a successful hoax is to convince people
utterly of its truth. Countless examples exist of people
giving up their all, enduring torture, and suffering death
for fraudulent ideas that they believed in their hearts were
the absolute truth. Believers, even dying ones, are only
evidence that something is believed in; they are not
evidence that that thing believed in is the TRVTH. You need
look no further than those who died for the glorious cause
of Der Dritten Reich: the ones who knew in their hearts that
Nazism was a lie tried very hard to escape death, and many
were quite successful, thank you, at bugging out and getting
to participate in Germany's postwar economic miracle.
It is only an unsuccessful hoax that people "know in
their hearts is a lie." The gullibility of people, however,
virtually insures at least the partial success of most
hoaxes.
Elsewhere, you say to Preston:
PS> And a third to a half of all "unborn" infants die before they can be
PS> born. Guess God's a bigger killer of children than humanity ever can
PS> be.
AM> Thats just inflammatory rhetoric.
His assertion about fetal mortality is, nonetheless,
fact. Only believers in god will assume, of course, that god
is reponsible for that prenatal carnage--is that what you
find inflammatory about it, that he alludes to this
situation without believing in a god himself? Or do you
prefer to think that god is not involved in these deaths,
and regard any suggestion to the contrary as inflammatory?
Or are you simply feeling inflamed today and would rather
point to Preston's observations than to anything within
yourself as the cause of that state of affairs?
Later, you say to David Worrell:
DW> Even if we allowed you this much, you would still have to show that
DW> the Designer was Jehovah God. None of your brethren has been able to
DW> do so yet. Can you?
AM> I can only give you reasons why I believe Jehovah God is the best
AM> candidate. Bear in mind I'm not an expert in comparative religions,
AM> science, philosophy, or theology.
No shit, Sherlock! You are neither an expert in
rhetoric, or you would know to save your words for those
occasions when you might possibly inform your reader of
something he does not already know.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God
|Date: 12 Feb 96 17:07:55
EID:b7d0 204c88e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31207eb1
Brad Jackson said "One God" to Scot Bear,
adding:
SB> Just answer the question instead of dancing around it! I'll ask again:
SB> :If god 'hates the sin but loves the sinner, how come he doesn't send
SB> the sin to hell and save the sinner whom he (supposedly) loves?:
[bullshit deleted]
BJ> The answers are in the bible just waiting your you to discover them.
That is NOT an aswer, Smegmabrain. Answer the nice man's
question, directly and in your own words.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Jose Gomez
|Sub: god pus
|Date: 13 Feb 96 12:34:34
EID:0a8b 204d6440
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3120d30c
REPLY: 1:18/73.0 89200E13
Preliminary comparisons of amplified speech at the
eardrum with predicted levels based on the VIOLA method
suggest that eardrum levels are generally lower than
predicted for soft, average, and loud speech inputs.
Analyses are continuing and adjustments will be made to the
procedure as necessary.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Persevere
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:05:11
EID:ed16 204d68a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3120d30d
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org bddde3a8
Katherine Wintersnight said "Persevere" to Don Martin,
adding:
JB> DM> away) willing to play Tammy Faye, but only a few of them can play
JB> DM> the piano or the electric organ (there goes George, again), and
most
KW>
KW> I think I missed the original of this.
KW> I could try to talk K'Lyn into this. She plays the piano and organ.
KW> If we do have a holysmoke get together, maybe we should have a talent
KW> show .
Talent show, hell. We'll get a tent from Aarrow and hold
a real revival. There is no money in talent shows.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:21:23
EID:eefd 204d6aa0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3120d30e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 311eaf11
Preston Simpson said "AN INTERESTING SITUATION." to Don Martin,
adding:
PS> True. I'm running Windows 95 without significant
PS> problems-
DM> He who has Windows does not need any more problems.
PS> It's not bad, actually. Most of the time, I stay in it just long
PS> enough to drop to DOS and run things that way (with 16 meg and a 120
PS> MHz Pentium, there isn't much of a problem).
Why does this maneuver remind me of getting religion in
order to better enjoy the backsliding?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Zayd Allebban
|Sub: Hey you all
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:27:32
EID:9e46 204d6b60
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3120d30f
REPLY: 00046f2c
Zayd Allebban said "Hey you all" to All,
adding:
ZA> Since I'm just getting started in this message writing stuff, I've
ZA> still got to get it under control. There is another net I am involved
ZA> in and I'm overloaded with messages there. So until I can get that
ZA> under control, I won't be writing here for a while...
ZA> No-- this isn't a bailout message. Hopefully I'll be back soon.
Get an off line reader (OLR): it's the only way to keep
up. I can recommend Blue Wave.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Holy Technology!
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:38:05
EID:b9bf 204d6cc0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3120d310
Norbert Sykes said "Holy Technology!" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> The 1846 Scientific American, citing C.G. Gilroy, "The Art of
DM> Weaving," mentions an improved Jacquard loom capable of "working an
DM> unlimited variety of figures and colors, as would appear from the
DM> fact that the night dress of Pope Boniface, which was woven in one
DM> of these machines, contained 276 different colors, so arranged and
DM> blended to display the likenesses of 276 heretics, each suffering
DM> under some species of torture different from any of the others."
NS> Man, they _never_ remainder cool clothes like that at
NS> K-Mart...sigh...
You have to wait for the yard sale at the Vatican.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 13 Feb 96 05:33:00
EID:0ef1 204d2c20
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> Has anyone tried to file a suit as to why the SBA is entirely
DC> male dominated? That may be a good place to chip away at the
DC> plaque of too many years of decay...
Not that I know of...and, please understand, I am only talking about the
office HERE being female-free. I have no idea if it is the same in other
locations. The statistics for loans, however, are country-wide.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 13 Feb 96 05:39:00
EID:5f93 204d2ce0
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Sue Armstrong <=-
DW> There are no guarantees, Sue. Technology, as we've seen right here on
DW> Earth, does not impart any special wisdom or compassion on its
DW> weilders.
It has, in fact, seemed to do just the opposite. As technology has
increased, the means to locate and reach more primitive civilizations has
grown. With the resultant corruption of those societies. Nobody has been
satisfied to say 'ok, they're there, now leave them alone.'
... Sign on fence; SALESMEN WELCOME, DOGFOOD IS EXPENSIVE.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 13 Feb 96 05:42:00
EID:9f7c 204d2d40
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Judith Bandsma <=-
DM> for sale, I would think that it does not get all THAT hot. Perhaps
DM> you have to invest in some medical plaster of Paris. So you won't
DM> have to worry about birth control for a couple of weeks--no big deal
MEDICAL plaster doesn't get all that hot, no...molding plaster reaches
about 180. Medical plaster can't be used to pour clay (although it can be
used with some resins.) I have burned myself a couple times on curing molds.
As for birth control, I haven't worried about that for 24 years.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: THUMB-SUCKING FUNDY
|Date: 13 Feb 96 05:46:00
EID:3e83 204d2dc0
-=> Quoting Eric Hendrix to Preston Simpson <=-
EH> I dis-agree. If you look deeper into the facts, I'd bet you will
EH> find that the majority of those unborn infants have mothers who abuse
EH> drugs, alcohol, smoke, etc... while pregnant. Also, consider the
That's crap. One third to one half of ALL pregnancies end in spontaneous
abortion (miscarriage). Most of those end before the woman even knows, or
suspects that she is pregnant. That's the way it has been forever. The
human reproductive system is so badly designed that, as one doctor (who
was conducting a class in human reproduction) said, that the wonder is
that pregnancy occurs at all.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: CHRISTIANITY
|Date: 13 Feb 96 05:52:00
EID:257f 204d2e80
-=> Quoting Eric Hendrix to All <=-
EH> let me say this right off. I feel there is no need for name-calling,
EH> blasphemous (to Christianity) replies. I wish to enter into an
EH> intelligent, peaceful debate on the views of Christianity, not sling
Then go to Steve Winter's Holy Bible echo. This ain't the place for it,
you ain't the moderator and this is particularly NOT the time to start
this crap with people who happen to believe that the right to read, write,
say and express whatever they damned well feel like is being undermined
enough by anencephalous cretins like yourself.
... They say the wages of sin is death. I wish you'd get paid!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:08:00
EID:add5 204d3100
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Asmodeus <=-
JH> "magick" (on or before February 14th) in order to fulfill the
JH> conditions of Curse Number Three.
Happy Valentine's Day, JJ. I know I'm a day early, but I figure if I post
it now, you may get it before St. Paddy's day.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: HOLIDAY GREETINGS...
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:13:00
EID:9126 204d31a0
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Judith Bandsma <=-
JM> Are you mixing your "characters" up there, Judith? "Sigmund" is
JM> Lucy's duck. I can't remember the name of the "bear" character
JM> Alan Q. plays for Emily, but it wasn't Sigmund... Mortimer
JM> perhaps?
Just combining the 2. Right now, I think Sigmund is the most
interesting character of the bunch.
I also didn't expect anyone to have the slightest idea of what I was
talking about. I mean! A duck? Testifying before the grand jury? That
quacks me up.
... Please, no deja vu; I don't want to go through that again.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jose Gomez
|Sub: 1 GOD PLUS 1 GOD PLUS
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:16:00
EID:1dae 204d3200
Bliss of heedless coma breeding,
Lapidary human souls intravenous-wearing
Vivisect the pink flesh wearers
To taste largess
Flay the cranial integument, open
Brain-lathes turning
The blood-smiths, fetus-braziers
Bile lickers shine toothsome
Visions, subjugations, bone-scrapings
Tentacle weary slumber
Flux nigh wakening
Undulating lethargic frenzies to the crossing
Interregnum ends, fusing.
... Mr QED--A logical horse of a different continuum...
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/14 97 200 803
SEEN-BY: 372/911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:25:00
EID:ab41 204d3320
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Judith Bandsma <=-
KW> Excuse my naive ignorance, but what did he consider a S&M theme?
KW> China whips? Stoneware ball gags?
I was afraid to ask. But he did want figurines, or 'anything' along that
line, 'as long as it has an S&M theme'.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/14 97 200 803
SEEN-BY: 372/911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:31:00
EID:d511 204d33e0
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Terry Liberty-parker <=-
PS> As you may or may not have noticed in the paper (10 February), it has
PS> been announced that the abortion section of the CDA will *not* be
PS> enforced as it has already been deemed unconstitutional.
No, Preston...it was SAID that the section will not be enforced. This from
the same people who brought you the damned law in the first place. And
it cannot be declared unconstitutional without a ruling by the SC. That
hasn't happened yet. Prosecution under that section of the law COULD still
happen. I don't want to bet on the RR NOT trying to test it.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 372/911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: GOODBYE OLD FRIEND
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:36:00
EID:d16a 204d3480
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Judith Bandsma <=-
RS> In the meantime, practice civil disobedience and break the law as
RS> often as possible.
Fucking abortion of a law. (There, how's that?)
Protect children, my ass. Adam and Eve raised a murderer and they didn't
have tv or the net to blame it on.
... "Scattered Showers, my ASS!"....Noah
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/14 97 200 803
SEEN-BY: 372/911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:42:00
EID:ba6d 204d3540
-=> Quoting Steve Wallis to Fredric Rice <=-
SW> Focus on the Family is a well respected Christian organization. As for
FoF is a well-heeled hate group who, if they called themselves what they
really are, are no better than the KKK. They HATE...gays, women, blacks,
Hispanics, orientals, other religions. All in the name of Jesus, of course.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/14 97 200 803
SEEN-BY: 372/911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: The Raven
|Sub: SELECT THIS!
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:46:00
EID:61ee 204d35c0
-=> Quoting The Raven to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> #4 You demand you didn't write the words attributed to you
TR> No, he doesn't demand this... he *states* this. Technicality.
And then he 'demands' evidence that he did state it.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: guess what?
|Date: 13 Feb 96 14:00:00
EID:6c4e 204d7000
JJ, do you remember that lesbian rugby team that we agreed was probably
a
BIT much even for I_UFO?
You need to check http://www.frsa.com/faithzon.shtml
and add Afro-American body builder to the above description.
... "You saw God?" "Er, yes...and she's black, sir."
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: FATHER KNOWS BEST
|Date: 12 Feb 96 22:11:06
EID:81ff 31200f87
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 31200f87
> I used
> to like but can't find any more (though I've only got a
> handful so
> far.) Feel up to a challenge? :)
I love challenges! post away!
You're on!
Hugs!
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Feb 96 22:15:12
EID:81ff 312010dc
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 312010dc
> -=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to David Worrell <=-
>
> RS> the Republican in the race -- Gordon Smith, a devout
> Mormon.
>
> After seeing what just happened, I wonder what Styx will
> say to the
> following 2 words?
>
> PAT BUCHANAN
I have been very disappointed in the rhetoric that Styx has been
espousing of late. Seems he can disparage the christians in here but, when
it comes to personal beliefs he's just like the rest of 'em...
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Scot Bear
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Texas Triangle Addresses
|Date: 12 Feb 96 22:26:04
EID:81ff 312012ff
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 312012ff
Texas Triangle addresses: 1615 W. 6th St., Austin, TX
78703
Voice: 512-476-0576
Fax: 512-472-8154
Email: txtriangle@aol.com
URL: http://www.outline.com/triangle/hp.html
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: David Robins
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:03:00
EID:5a23 204ca060
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285dc
REPLY: 1:247/312.0 311d3fb8
>Ro> Did God create dinosaurs at the same time as man? Or did
>Ro> God create dinosaurs before that, perhaps as his first try
>Ro> at a living world..then realize that the dinosaurs were
>Ro> incapable of worshiping him and destroy them...
>Ro> Then 65 million years later create man.
> The "Taylor trail" is a recently discovered path that shows a
> human track running through a dinosaur track. That and other
> evidence, samples, etc. seem to indicate that man and dinosaur
> did once co-exist.
And if I were to run through that track, would it seem to indicate
that I also existed at the same time as the dinosaurs? ;-)
---
* Origin: The death of dogma is the birth of reality. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: USA NetCensor's Law
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:10:01
EID:a78b 204ca140
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285dd
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 11d06d87
> 1. Section 507 makes it a crime to VIEW an indecent site.
> Section 502 had only made the person who posted the site
> liable; now anyone who knowingly views an indecent site is a
> criminal, too.
It would be interesting to see an entire courtroom full of people
indicted for viewing evidence presented to a jury. ;-)
Loopholes. Gotta love 'em.
---
* Origin: Do not read this line if under 18 years of age. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 12 Feb 96 21:00:02
EID:d441 204ca800
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285de
> Will the conservatives ever approve of election reform to level
> the playing field and open the doors for good people who might
> not sit in the top 5% financially? I greatly doubt it.
Lamar Alexander spoke in favor of limiting campaign spending,
when he was being interviewed on "This Week with David Brinkley"
last sunday. He's a conservative candidate for the presidency.
I'm not certain of Dole or Gramm's opinions regarding campaign
spending. I'm presently more interested in who the democratic
alternative to Clinton will be. Looks really bad so far.
It would be interesting to learn how much Clinton has spent on
his campaign thus far. He's already exhibited what the bottom
5% ethically can do. Tell me again how bad conservatives can be.
---
* Origin: If these are democrats, imagine the full version. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Children
|Date: 12 Feb 96 21:18:03
EID:086c 204caa40
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285df
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 311e1a3c
> Styx,
> With your permission I would like to post the pictures of missing
> children on your echo. In UUE format they average 60,000 bytes
> or six messages per UUE.
> I would like to post six pictures per day which is 36 messages.
In all fairness to those who pay to move our messages, I suggest
that instead, you focus on making the pictures available via
regular announcements. Making the files available for FREQ or FTP
would be far more appropriate. This would allow those who wish to
become involved to do so; while sparing the majority of participants
who aren't even familiar with uuencoded files in text messages.
> The cause is worthy, we are talking about missing children.
I commend you on your efforts, but I don't believe that flooding
a fidonet echobase with uuencodings is a proper course to pursue.
Providing information about how to obtain the info is far more
productive than performing the equivalent of a leaflet bomb.
[recalling what Marguerite Kendall's "worthy cause" cost those
who paid to move her "literature"]
> And this medium can get their faces shown to many.
So would car windshields, but many don't appreciate that approach,
either. Lines like the following are much more to the point:
> ... National Center for Missing & Abused Children.
> Call 1-800-THE-LOST.
See what I mean? It says so much in so little, and people read
the whole thing before they even have a chance to skip it.
Bulky uuencodes would quickly become monotonous. Post some
download addresses for those wishing to download them instead, ok?
Thanks for your request, and for your understanding.
-Styx
---
* Origin: Out in the Styx - Eugene OR ZyXEL 16.8/V.32b/FAX (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Children
|Date: 12 Feb 96 21:28:04
EID:086c 204cab80
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285e0
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 311e1a44
> Styx,
> Look into the eyes of nc1011, and tell me that you don't
> want her to be found.
I want her to be found, but I do not believe in the concept
of capitalizing on captive audiences as you have just done.
> Hey! I know I'm rotten, I'm a Democrat.
No, what's rotten is asking without waiting for my response.
Being a democrat merely follows that concept faithfully.
Think about that while you ponder your tax forms, and how
people take from your paycheck to finance programs without
asking you if you support them or not.
---
* Origin: Out in the Styx - Eugene OR ZyXEL 16.8/V.32b/FAX (1:152/20)
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PATH: 152/20 8 270/101 218/801
|From: Styx Allum
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Feb 96 22:04:05
EID:dfd6 204cb080
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285e1
REPLY: 1:207/212 66b44df3
> I have seen Gramm speak out against abortion.
I haven't. I find that to be quite odd, given the number of his
speeches that I've watched & listened to. He must not be very
outspoken, to have concealed such an important issue.
Do you recall which show/newscast/forum he was on when he spoke
out against abortion? I'd be interested in obtaining a transcript
if one is available. I'll check into the White House on the net
to see if I can find out more about it.
>> Ronald Reagan passed the Hyde Amendment, which prevented federally
>> funded clinics from even MENTIONING a LEGAL medical procedure.
>SA> He couldn't pass it by himself. The democratic congress
>SA> had to pass it, too.
> With the lies of the Right.
Oh...
Implying that democrats were dumb enough to be fooled by them?
Regardless of WHY, the fact remains that they DID pass the bill.
You can't blame that on conservatives, as the majority were
liberals (i.e. democrats).
>SA> Who are these conservinazis? I want to know which ones you
>SA> consider to be extremist, in comparison to who you consider
>SA> to be average conservatives.
> Those who oppose people doing things that didn't happen in the
> '50's. In other words, those working against gay rights,
> women's rights, and reproductive rights.
I know some homophobic conservatives, but the only conservatives
that I know who are against the latter two are Christians.
Of my theistic friends, one considers herself to be Catholic,
and she's registered (and votes) democrat. She let me throw her
mail-in ballot into her woodstove, rather than to vote for Wyden;
as so many gullible fear monger-ees did in Oregon.
> And of course the ones who just passed that Telecomm law.
Ah. The one that Clinton and Gore made such a worldwide production
out of signing proudly. Better revise your classifications, Karen.
Those two morons are certainly NOT conservative, nor "conservinazis".
>SA> The term "traditional gender roles" indicates majority opinion.
>SA> Do you believe that the majority is conservative? Unless you do,
>SA> your statement reflects that non-conservatives agree with what
>SA> you attribute to "conservinazis". Funny how prejudice reveals
>SA> itself in subtle contradiction. Such is fundamentalist
>SA> liberalism; whose primary tactic is fear peddling to a
>SA> gullible audience. Not at all unlike Christianity.
> Traditional gender roles indicates the past. I have seen
> conservinazis state that they want to go back to the 50's.
Hey, I'm concervative. I was born in the 50's. I wouldn't go back
for anything. Some of the democrats that I work with listen to the
oldies channel at work, and reflect back on the "good old days"
"before the republicans fucked everything up". Yeah. Those damned
republicans in the flower power era, Woodstock/free love era,
psychedelic era, disco era, rap era... yeah. They really fucked
it up in the last 40 years, huh?! Damned yuppie republicans.
Just think if democrats had controlled congress during those years.
Things would have been better, fer sher. OOPS! THEY WERE!
> Where women were women and men were men...
And sheep were sheep, and fundies were nervous.
> * Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word!
Neither is "conservative", except to social parasites.
---
* Origin: Without conservatives, who would liberals tax? (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Feb 96 22:50:06
EID:7062 204cb640
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285e2
REPLY: 1:207/212 f2a0ed8f
>SA> Then so are all of my other conservative friends.
>SA> Perhaps you need to expand your scope of conservativism
>SA> beyond what the liberals would prefer to limit you to.
> Libertarianism is acceptable. Republicanism is not.
They're both acceptable, Karen. Your exclusionist philosophies
are beginning to surface in much the same manner that a fundy
promotes censorship in order to disallow what is not "acceptable".
> Libertarian conservatives fight most of the current idiocy
> in the republican party.
And even more so in the democratic party. I've attended meetings
of libertarian politicians. As with any party affiliation, they
have both good and bad ideas. I suspect that those with whom
you disagree would be deemed libertarinazis.
>SA> Apparently, you haven't read what I've said repeatedly:
>SA> THE PRESIDENT SERVES AS A FIGUREHEAD AND SCAPEGOAT.
>SA> CONGRESS HOLDS (almost) ALL OF THE POWER.
> Oh... but suddenly if something bad happens, it's because
> of Clinton, right?
Not anymore. He can still do bad things; but congress can override
a presidential veto, given sufficient support to pass a bill.
(or in this case, even a Bill!)
> Those idiots in Congress would pass laws that would make me
> leave this country, fearing for my personal freedom.
> They would pass laws against abortion - it's on the Republican
> official manifesto -
The WHAT?! Lemme guess... this is some secret document that all
us big bad republicans sign as we conspire to ruin the lives of
anyone who's not Christian, right? [scoff]
> and laws which would prevent men from being charged for
> raping their spouses, etc.
Wow. You really need to stop listening to propagandizing fear
peddlers, Karen. That last one was a prize. It ranks up there
with Christians proclaiming that Satan will mislead you into
turning against God, and that you will burn in eternal hellfire
if you don't side with Jesus. It's a crock, Karen. Conservatives
are more likely to favor a death penalty against rapists, than to
raise taxes to support housing them in "correctional facilities",
or letting them go free.
>SA> Not even Limbaugh's show gives you the entire picture
>SA> - but it DOES prove that the other media sources are
>SA> catering to the liberalist side of the political spectrum.
> Nope. Limbaugh lies 100% more than any mainstream media.
> That's why he's losing in popularity.
You just proved to me that you don't watch his show;
thereby indicating that you are lying to yourself as well as to me.
>SA> As far as I (as a conservative) am concerned, it IS up
>SA> for discussion.
> Abortion is officially not going to be discussed. Why?
If it's not going to be discussed, then nothing will change.
If you're afraid of something changing with regard to abortion;
then you must be concerned that someone's gonna be discussing it.
You're talking out both sides of your mouth, Karen.
>SA> [yawn] Women outnumber men. That means that more women are
>SA> eligible to vote than men. Obviously, women therefor vote for men.
>SA> If you take issue with those who women MUST support in order for
>SA> them to gain sufficient votes to be elected; I suggest that you
>SA> examine where your opinion ranks with regard to the majority of
>SA> other women's opinions. For obvious reasons, I don't believe that
>SA> your opinions reflect those of the women voting majority.
> Since too many women are brainwashed with Saint Paul's Epistles,
> I take no blame.
You just condemned the majority of voting women to the ranks of
brainwashed mind-numbed robots. I suggest that you re-evaluate.
I know some femininazis that would bust you upside the head for that
sexist remark. HAHAHAHAHA. [ducking and running]
>> You also don't recognize how much this anti welfare tear is anti
>> woman.
>SA> That would only indicate that the majority of welfare abusers
>SA> are women - not that the majority of women are welfare abusers.
>SA> Your inverse reasoning above is strikingly similar to that of
>SA> someone claiming that pot leads to heroin, simply because most
>SA> heroin users have tried pot. Incidental effect does not equate
>SA> to primary causation.
> The anti welfare garbage is in no way a "clean up the abuse"
> attempt. It is clear and simple to cut it out so that there
> is more money for men to run defense plants.
Yeah, I even have a Venus flytrap guarding my restroom in case
any of my female visitors leave the seat down. I'm through jooking
with you Karen. The more that I read of your liberalist martyrdom;
the less that I feel like laughing.
Please familiarize yourself with the fact that Medicare/Medicaid
consumes the largest percentage of our tax dollars - not the military.
> But the same men are passing laws preventing women from getting that
> same help.
> SA> Why FIRST? Why not SIMULTANEOUSLY? Do you perchance have a stake
> SA> in our welfare system? Just curious, as I know many people on
> SA> government assistance who can't find work, but they can always
> SA> find time to hang out on BB systems - with better equipment than
> SA> most working people can afford. I hope that you don't fall under
> SA> that particular classification.
> I'm a substitute teacher and have never received government
> assistance.
Bravo! You have my sincerest hope that you can continue to work,
that you learn to appreciate every tax break that conservatives
strive to create for you in the years to come.
> The closest my husband and I have come is unemployment for a few
> months, which is, as you know more like insurance than assistance.
No, I don't know that, as I have never received unemployment or
other form of goverment assistance. I never expect to be unemployed.
> I have a 386 SX that has been upgraded a few bucks at a time
> from an XT with money saved literally from nickels and dimes
> and Christmas presents.
And my 100MHz Pentium is the result of many sacrifices, that I may
more productively use my computing time; while striving for more
ways to further my experience and marketability as a programmer.
I started out on a Tandy TRS-80 Model 1, while others were out
buying cars, motorcycles, and getting drunk. Look where they are
now. Liberals that "can't find work". Go figure. I guess when
I'm wealthy, I should bail them out by paying higher taxes.
Yeah. That would be the conservinazi thing to do.
---
* Origin: Christianity taxes the soul. Democrats do the rest. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Feb 96 22:57:07
EID:7526 204cb720
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285e3
REPLY: 1:207/212 fbc778fe
>> Are you closet-christian, too?
>SA> Eat shit, Scot. I didn't take offense to your earlier bullshit,
>SA> but that statement earns you my disrespect in an instant.
>SA> It was a stupid statement, even if made in sarcastic jest.
>SA> I see no smiley face, nor do I sense one.
> What are we supposed to think, Styx, when you are so vehemently
> supporting those we KNOW are idiots and Christonazis?
I'm telling you that you DON'T "know" that, in light of the fact
that I (and most other conservatives that I know) are nothing
like the stereotypic propagandizing you espouse of conservatives.
To you, anyone that you hate is a form of nazi.
Hell, I bet if I sold store signs for a living, you would
classify me as a neon-nazi. Oh, that's right. I said that
I was through joking with you.
> * Origin: Agnostic is not a dirty word!
Neither is "objectivity". Try it. You might accidentally like it.
---
* Origin: This line made from 66% recycled bits. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Feb 96 23:21:08
EID:fa81 204cbaa0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285e4
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 311ac8d4
> "This just in from our Moscow bureau..."
Russia is touted as being an atheistic country, which encompasses
one sixth of the world's land surface. Just FYI.
>SA> [* Soapbox mode on *]
>SA> Wanna know something really shocking?
>SA> I think lesser of liberals than I do of fundies.
>SA> Fundies are idiots for being gullible.
>SA> Liberals are deliberately selfish, and seek to prevent anyone else
>SA> from naturally excelling beyond their own lazy limitations.
>SA> If anyone does, liberals believe that they should be heavily taxed
>SA> for having done so. They penalize affluency, and reward laziness.
>SA> [* Soapbox mode off *]
> Okay, dingleberry.
What, dufus?
> I got one thing to say to you: support this.
That's one thing...
> Support, with evidence, your statement that all liberals are
> (and I quote) "deliberately selfish and seek to prevent anyone
> else from naturally excelling beyond their own lazy limitations."
Typical liberalist twist in action. First you lead in with
innuendo that would indicate that I said something which I did not;
and proceed to follow it with my own words, as if to validate
your incorrect implication.
I did not say "all" anywhere in my text. You attempted to place it
there, but it was not. You illustrate my claims about liberalist
corruption in reporting quite well. Please learn the difference
between generalizations (as with my statement) and inclusive
claims (i.e. "All fundies are gullible").
> I want to see you do it. In fact, I *dare* you to do it. And
> do *not* try and show me individual cases, because your *very*
> ridiculous statement was sweeping in nature, covering every
> liberal everywhere.
"Every liberal everywhere". See? You did it again.
Repeating the implication, as if to validate it.
I guess if I were to claim that evolution happens (which it does);
you would require of me to not try to show you individual examples...
but to prove that everything that happens is evolution.
Gee, why don't you ask a fundy to prove that their god exists?
HAHAHAHA.
> Hoist on your own fucking petard, Styx. I expect better than
> this out of you, a man of your obvious education.
> You know as well as I do that you can't make this sort of statement.
I didn't, Jack. You tried to make it appear as though I did.
> It simply is not true, no more so than the statement
> "conservatives are deliberately fascist, and seek to impose
> their own views onto all aspects of everyone's private life.
> They trample civil rights in the name of the "public good",
> and revile and ridicule anyone who disagree with them about
> *anything*."
No doubt there are many (individual) examples where that may be
true. It would also be a GENERALIZATION, rather than all-encompassing.
Some generalizations are true. Some are not. I believe mine to
be true, but you care not to have me cite my reasons, as they would
not be all-encompassing.
> Get real, Styx. You are supposed to be smarter than this shit.
And you should be smarter than to attribute the word "all" to my
statement of generalization. Pay attention next time, Jack.
You're acting like a typical liberal. (Ponder that for a moment.)
> Jack Butler
Fuck waitress. Tip cheauffer. (Cheap shot, but it fulfills the
role of a self-centered rich-bastard conservative, no?) Uh-huh...
---
* Origin: Open the pod-bay doors, HAL. Let some fresh air in. (1:152/20)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: children
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:01:15
EID:add7 204d6820
MSGID: 1:123/67 31208bd9
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB47
PID: GED3 2.5.b6 124LM3
10 Feb 96 18:38, quoting Michael Hardy to Hector Plasmic:
MH> In fact, I don't have a cut-and-dried explanation for why God is
MH> portrayed in the Old Testament as occasionally championing the
MH> destruction of entire cities, including the presumably innocent
MH> children. I do believe that God will prove to be right and righteous
MH> no matter what the answer turns out to be -- that he did save
MH> the innocent, or that he never ordered the destruction of cities at
MH> all, and the Israelites claimed their own political goals were "God's
MH> will," or some other alternative.
Why don't you just squinch yours eyes shut and murmur "IS NOT", Michael?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: scientists
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:02:33
EID:e910 204d6840
MSGID: 1:123/67 31208d0a
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB49
PID: GED3 2.5.b6 124LM3
10 Feb 96 18:47, quoting Michael Hardy to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> Tell me what evidence they offer to support the conclusion of a
SS>> creator.
SS>> Please be specific and be kind enough to separate their religious
SS>> beliefs from real science.
MH> Read the books. I have no desire to spend my time trying to
MH> summarize what adds up to several thousand pages of material. If
MH> you're interested, you'll read the books, or at least one or two of
MH> them. If you're not interested enough to do that, then I'm not
MH> interested in spoon-feeding you.
I'll take this reply as an admission that you are full of shit. You
are the one that is claiming some sort of "back door' scientific
evidence for creationism.
Spoon feed, indeed, lad. Why don't you just admit that you don't have
any evidence?
SS>> They do? I'm sure that Hector and other had posted to you
SS>> numerous times what is required of a scientific theory. Are
SS>> their theories falsifiable? Do they show a mechanism for
SS>> creation?
MH> Read the books.
Why don't you be honest and just admit that there is no scientific
theory of creationism? I asked you a simple question and you evaded it.
Why? I suggest that you or no one else has any scientific support for
creationism and the "scientists" that you allude to are merely expressing
their religious beliefs.
SS>> It sounds like they don't have scientific theories, only
SS>> religious beliefs. This takes me back to one of my original
SS>> questions, i.e., do you Michael Hardy know the differnece between
SS>> science and religious belief?
MH> Yes, I do. I also know the difference between an interested skeptic
MH> and a smug unbeliever.
Well, what is it? Do the scientists have scientific evidence to support
their belief in creationism or only RELIGIOUS BELIEF?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: death
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:08:21
EID:a740 204d6900
MSGID: 1:123/67 31208f19
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4C
PID: GED3 2.5.b6 124LM3
10 Feb 96 21:43, quoting Michael Hardy to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> A christian BELIEF, supported by....your christians belief?
SS>> Where is your evidence, Mikey?
MH> It's a chain of reasoning, really. The evidence is good that the
MH> earliest followers of Jesus believed him to be divine and to have
^^^^^^^^
MH> risen from the grave. I find the arguments in this regard to be
MH> persuasive.
I find them to be persuasive too...persuasive that people then and people
today have religious beliefs. Where is your evidence, Mikey? You always
seem to leave this important item in a box at home or something, don't you?
MH> I can find no plausible explanation for this belief except that it's
MH> true.
ROFL! People BELIEVE in a lot of things, including Bigfoot and aliens
from outer space that have visited this planet. Are you to conclude that
these things are true also, based on the belief?
MH> Because I consider the case for Jesus's divine nature to be strong,
What case? There is no evidence, is there? You've been asked a jillion
times in this forum for evidence to support your belief and you just
come up with more belief.
MH> I accept what Jesus taught about, among other things, life after
MH> death. I have no *direct* evidence of it, but there is evidence of
MH> the truth of the claims about Jesus, and that validates the teachings
MH> *of* Jesus.
Listen to yourself. What evidence is there of the truth of the claims of
Jesus! It is reported in the bible that he told his followers that he
would return before their generation passed away. He didn't. Observations
of millions of deaths show us that dead men do not get up out of the grave.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Tim Pauly
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Revised (by ME) HS list
|Date: 13 Feb 96 05:25:00
EID:750f 204d2b20
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:2613/377.0 31210415
The last thing J.J. said was something about "Revised (by ME) HS list" to
Tim Pauly
JH> In one paragraph you say:
TP> It is meant to be an identifier, as some Baptist churches
TP> have been notorious for just teaching whatever doctrine
TP> comes to mind at the time and fits their purpose, without
TP> even cracking a Bible open.
JH> In the very next paragraph you say:
TP> I have never labelled anyone as "False Christian Scum", and
TP> neither has the church I happen to attend.
JH> You simply claim they are "notorious" and "teach whatever doctrine
JH> comes to mind" and never use the Bible.
JH> I suppose you think labelling someone means applying a
JH> self-adhesive sticker to their foreheads.
I disagree with how and what certain churches teach. That doesn't mean I
label them as "scum", nor does that mean I won't associate with people
who are in these churches. My brother in law is a Buddhist. Does that
mean I think he's a scum? No. I have a lot of respect for him. While I
may even blatantly disagree with some people, I don't go around mocking
people and throwing names at them like a 3 year year old. While I may
identify certain groups of people as having certain traits, I try not
to "label" people as being bad, or "scum", or whatever.
- Tim
... Kids who eat crayons download in Technicolor
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Tim Pauly
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: HS list
|Date: 13 Feb 96 06:01:01
EID:78e0 204d3020
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:2613/377.0 31210416
The last thing Steve said was something about "HS list" to Tim Pauly
TP> keep getting this idea that I'm somehow "suffering".
SR> You are a fundy. All fundies claim to be 'suffering' from something.
SR> Guilt, more than likely. Which is it for you? Guilt...or a lonely
SR> life?
Well, I guess not *all* "fundies" claim to be suffering from something,
because I don't... ;)
TP> I don't happen to be enslaved, mentally, psychologically, or
TP> physically, by my church leaders (pastors), or anyone else.
SR> Keeeep sucking on that tithe plate. Keeeeeeep digging deep into the
SR> pockets! And keep those babble-blinders on.
So what's wrong with tithing? Don't you give to charities? Is there
something wrong with giving to a worthy cause? My church is what I consider
a worthy cause. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't be going there. What is
wrong with helping keep the lights on, the bills paid, the buildings
maintained, and YES, pay the pastor(s) salary? Nothing.
I have been through the "Christian scam" junk first hand. If I wanted to
make excuses and be a whiner for the rest of my life, I could when it
came to this. I used to work for a Christian ministry that, at one time,
was
productive and had its priorities in the right place. It was very effective
in helping teenagers who had problems with drugs, abuse, etc. get their
lives in check. I should know, I went there at age 15.
But, 5 years after graduating from their program, I went to work there.
What I found was corruption. I found that I was sacrificing myself and
my family, living on $100 a week, while the pastor lived in a big,
beautiful house, drove a Lincoln Town car with everything from two cellular
phones to a bomb search. All the "higher ups" lived similar to that.
And then, 8 months later, I got laid off along with a bunch of other
"lower" staff to "try to cut operating costs".
That's not the half. I could tell you some horror stories. Would I ever
send
that "ministry" a dime now. No. Was the place full of corruption?
Unfortunately, yes.
Was I bitter? Yes, for a long time. It was a real eye opener. Am I still
bitter? No. Do I think there are more so-called ministries that are
corrupted? Yes. But I also think there are a lot of good ones. I didn't
think that for a long time. I didn't set foot in a church for almost a year.
But I had a year to think about the whole situation, and was smart enough
to realize that just because I knew there was corruption in certain
ministries, didn't mean they all were. Then I got involved in a church that
genuinely showed me the love of Christ the way we all ought to. Am I still
careful about where my money goes, and what ministries I endorse? Yes.
But that's just common sense anyway...
- Tim
... He who eats fastest, eats mostest!
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jen Barrett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: god=hoax staal=bigot
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:24:29
EID:fd85 204d6b00
MSGID: 1:18/73.0 8922D2F3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 94-2206
-> jd> Show me concrete proof that there is a god.
->
-> There is none. There's no evidence either.
->
-> ~*~ The Cosmic Star Goat told us you would not provide evidence.
-> -- Dan Ceppa
Thank you! That is my point ! Finally I have found intelligent life on
this earth!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: SomeThing New (1:18/73.0)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:41:20
EID:7cce 204d9520
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312121a0
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Eric Hendrix mumbled "Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy"
PS> And a third to a half of all "unborn" infants die before they can be
PS> born. Guess God's a bigger killer of children than humanity ever can
PS> be.
EH> I dis-agree. If you look deeper into the facts, I'd bet you will
EH> find that the majority of those unborn infants have mothers who abuse
Will I? What evidence have you of this? And why are these children somehow
less valuable to God than the kids of proper, upstanding women?
EH> That brings me to another question. How can you honestly sit there
EH> and believe that this world just "happened"? This world is too complex
EH> and intricate to have just happened. This is my reasoning for
Is it? Why is it impossible for the world to have just "happened"? I'm
curious.
EH> believing in God. Notice, in this world, every little detail has been
Your reasoning is a bit faulty. Why not believe in Odin? Or Zeus? Why
God?
EH> worked out, except for us pesky humans that seem to make a disaster
of
Every little detail? Like the fact that humans are prone to arteriosclerosis
while dogs are not? Like the fact that the human eye is constructed such
that
everything we see is focused upside down and must be translated to proper
orientation by the brain? Or the fact that we eat, drink, and breathe
through the essentially the same passageway and run the risk of suffocation
or drowning every time we eat or drink something? Or that tiny problem with
the third set of molars that only some humans are born with, when many of
us must have some or all of them removed? And let's hear it for the
appendix, that troublesome organ that many people have to have removed due
to our unfortunate tendency to develop appendicitis.
Yeah. Tell me again about a designer.
EH> everything God has given us. Even if you are an evolutionist, you have
Have we, now? Why believe that God has given us all of this when he also
seems to have given us Ebola, bubonic plague, and various other nasty
ailments. Or was that the work of a separate entity?
EH> to agree, we haven't exactly done the best we could with this world.
Yes, I do have to agree. But I don't have to say that your god made it
perfect in the first place. Given the state of the world as we know it,
I find it a lot easier to believe that we're the products of natural
selection than through any act of a supposedly benevolent designer.
Absolving your deity of any wrong-doing by placing the blame on someone
else's shoulders smacks of not wanting to think of other possibilities.
EH> We kill babies for *RESEARCH*, and to attempt to repair other people's
EH> problems. We waste so many of the resources we were given, even if
EH> they can't be replaced, etc...
There are six billion people on this planet. We're doing a good job of
making it increasingly more inhabitable for each of those people, and
I for one have a perverse desire to see the species survive. Do you
have a problem with this?
EH> I also want to toss out another thought. Ok, according to
EH> evolution, the world took billions of years to *evolve* to the point
No. That's according to cosmological theory, actually. Evolution only
talks about life in general. It does not address the origins of that
life.
EH> we are at right now. According to my Bible, it took six days, but who
EH> is to say what six days is, in the eyes of an eternal being? God's one
You're assuming that your being exists beforehand. Why? Why assume that
the
Bible is true, given the fact that it speaks of a global flood for which
there has been found exactly zero evidence to date.
EH> day could be our billion years. So, with this in mind, the theory of
EH> evolution could, in part, be equated with the Bible that so many
EH> evolutionists hate. The Bible's six days was simply a way for God to
Amusing. I don't hate the Bible any more than I hate you. I just think it's
a ludicrous source to turn to for information.
And it is also possible that your Bible and the theory of evolution are
both a pack of lies and Odin and the Norse pantheon created humanity.
EH> equate it to us. If anyone saw one of the earliest episodes of Deep
EH> Space 9, where Sisko was introduced to the beings of the wormhole that
You're resorting to popular television to buttress your arguments now?
EH> had no concept of linear time, compare it to that. As far as that
EH> goes, who's to say that God didn't make those first amino acids, and
EH> make them join to create a one celled being. Then, with His direction,
Who's to say that the Bible isn't really Satan's propaganda? After all,
the thing is unsubstantiated in many areas and can be interpreted in
enough different ways that one support contradictory points of view.
EH> *LET* them evolve. I look forward to *intelligent* debate, but
EH> name-calling, blasphemous, messages don't even need to be entered.
Define "blasphemy." Explain to me why I should have any respect for a god
who has heretofore remained invisible despite the fact that I spent four
years of my life worshipping him.
... Campbell's Primordial Soup: Add water and energy, stir for 1E+9 years.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:41:21
EID:a11c 204d9520
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312121a1
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Eric Hendrix mumbled "Christianity"
EH> I know I'm going to get slammed right and left for this one, so
EH> let me say this right off. I feel there is no need for name-calling,
EH> blasphemous (to Christianity) replies. I wish to enter into an
That's alright. I feel that there's no need for insulting replies from
Christians to anyone else, insisting that their Bible outlines the only
true way to live and that only their god is the genuine article. Let's
level the playing field, shall we?
EH> intelligent, peaceful debate on the views of Christianity, not sling
EH> a bunch of mud. Any replies like the ones mentioned above will not be
EH> responded to, simply ignored! Ok, now that I've said that, let me
Fine by me. Any message I see from you mentioning that your god is the
only one will be scrupulously ignored.
EH> get started. Christianity relies on faith. Faith doesn't necessarily
EH> come from proof, but a feeling in the heart (symbolically, not
Watch that. Proof is for mathematics and liquor; us nasty old non-
Christians ask for evidence.
EH> physically!). To me, the Bible is all I need to *prove* it to me.
That's good for you.
EH> Everyone has some kind of faith. Some, have faith in God and Jesus,
EH> some have faith in science, some still yet, have faith in other
EH> gods/deities. Science, to some degree, is very convincing. However,
Others, like me, have faith in what they've seen or experienced before,
usually believing that things that behaved one way in the past will not
suddenly change behavior without good reason.
EH> For example, science says there could be ghosts/super-natural beings.
EH> But, they can't *prove* it. Any attempt I know of has failed
Science can't prove that we're not all purple toads either, largely
because science doesn't bother with proving things but deals in
evidence--which does nothing more than point towards a conclusion...but
not necessarily a true one.
EH> miserably. In my opinion, that's because God doesn't want humans
EH> poking and probing into the spiritual world, which the Bible says
EH> exists, for their own protection. Now, we have the theory of
This is reminiscent of some of H. P. Lovecraft's stories.
EH> evolution. Although I don't know it very well, and don't care to, I
EH> have been told it's full of holes. The biggest short-coming in
This is, if you'll pardon me, intellectually irresponsible. If I told you
that Christianity was full of holes, would you immediately abandon it?
Why not examine what the theory of evolution (as opposed to the fact of
evolution) actually *says*, from a source that isn't looking to discredit
it right off the bat, and make your own judgment?
EH> data supplied on that particular subject. In my case, the Bible. I
EH> think I've now established that everyone has a faith in something,
EH> and if that faith is true, NOBODY can destroy it. Everyone
This is getting a little murky. Faith doesn't have the possibility of
being true or false--it can be based on something that is not what it
seems, or it can be based on something that is ultimately shown to be
most likely true, but the faith itself is an emotion. And emotions are
not themselves true or false.
EH> Many people today, given that definition, worship money. I worship
Many people also through that definition worship their spouses. Are you
trying to make a point?
EH> God through Jesus. Material things never seem to quite fill the void.
That's okay for you. What about for the rest of us?
EH> People keep wanting and getting, but still don't feel *TOTALLY*
EH> satisfied. With Christianity, it isn't like that. When I go to sleep
EH> at night, I say my prayers, and it makes me feel totally safe. Can
Good for you. It isn't true of me, and it wasn't true of several of the
other ex-Christians here.
EH> anyone say material goods make them feel the same? It seems as though
EH> alarms fail, bodyguards fail, and security systems, as well as
Unlike some people, I've learned to live with the prospect of never being
truly safe. In a sense, even you are not truly safe--despite your god,
bad things can still happen to you. And they probably will, for you're
only human after all, and this isn't a bunnies-and-light sort of world.
EH> to me, but, in my faith, I believe God will provide everything
EH> necessary for me to live, and he has. I believe He provides my job,
And what does God provide for the children who go to bed hungry every
night? Does he not care about them because they've never heard of him?
EH> there will be problems, but most of these problems are due to a lack
EH> of faith, or a demonic intervention (which will also come from a lack
EH> of faith). And, after you have learned your lesson, everything usually
I am beginning to pity you and your family. But I am also getting to
understand your frame of mind--and I find it frightening.
EH> the man remains faithful, God places an "umbrella" over him to
EH> protect him from this world. This umbrella covers the entire family.
Job was faithful to God. Why did Job's children have to die?
EH> back under the umbrella. Same goes for me. Kids are different. The
EH> "umbrella" of God is always there, until they know what a sin is. If
Then why doesn't God cut out the middleman and allow more kids to die?
Why are people upset about abortion if this is the way things are? After
all, those kids are going straight to heaven without ever getting a chance
to sin. Why be so bent out of joint about them not getting a chance to be
stuck in this world we live in?
EH> asked. This "Umbrella Effect" is the reason why any *true Christian*
EH> family will not seperate, divorce, etc... It simply is not allowed.
Aha...there we are. "True Christian." I was waiting to see if this phrase
would fall from your lips. Who is the final arbiter as to who is a true
Christian and who is not? How can you be certain that someone isn't a
Christian when your own Bible says that humans are prone to error and
only God knows the truth?
EH> so. Christianity has been called a cult. Well, it is similar, only we
EH> don't go out and kill people. A cult, as I know it, only requires that
Really? The Crusaders did. The Inquisitors did. The conquistadores did.
Jim Jones did. David Koresh did. Why are they not really Christians?
EH> you do *whatever* the leader requests. In my case, God/Jesus is the
Isn't this essentially what Christians do, if they claim God as their
leader?
EH> leader and I WILL do whatever they request. As far as that goes
EH> Atheism is actually, Satanism. Jesus said "You are either for or
EH> against me." The only "big boy" against Jesus/God is Satan. So, if
Jesus obviously didn't realize that some people get along just fine
without worshipping anybody. Why does Jesus feel the need to describe
everyone who isn't worshipping him as his enemy? (Perhaps I'd better
stop there--I'll write some really blasphemous things if I go on much
further and goodness knows I want to keep talking to you about this.)
EH> you aren't for Jesus, you are for Satan.
This is what's known as polarized thinking. Such thinking usually doesn't
have much to do with reality.
EH> Heaven, it will be in "The batting of an eye.", instant. Of course,
EH> our gov't has already made provisions for this, "just in case the
EH> Bible is true." They have made up stories of Hangar 13 (I think 13,
Have they? On what evidence do you base this?
EH> These are my views, and I hope someone will take me up on a
EH> peaceful debate.
I'll follow your rules if you'll follow mine.
EH> ... Proof is for science, mathmatics and liquor. Not religion!
^^^^^
Yes, I know it's poor form to argue with a tagline, but proof doesn't
apply to science.
... AD&D Famous Last Words: "Nothing can penetrate this armor."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Maria russel in the new_w
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:41:21
EID:24db 204d9520
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312121a2
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Norbert Sykes mumbled "Maria russel in the
new_w"
AG> modernise the age old `Protocols' designed to impose the Luciferian
AG> ideology. His task was completed on MAy 1, 1776. Their insignia was
AG> chosen for the Great Seal of the United States in 1782.
PS> And what, exactly did Weishaupt do to found the United States?
NS> Uh, turn left at Greenland? };)
NS> <>>
Doesn't bother me. I'm no fan of Elvis'.
... 3 - Automatic weapons - aren't.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: The Constellation
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:41:21
EID:3e87 204d9520
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312121a3
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Dan Ceppa mumbled "The Constellation"
PS> People were smaller in those days and the confined space saved some
PS> money on building costs.
DC> Yes, but not that much shorter. Most had to stoop to move around.
It
DC> was the cost of building it bigger that was the main factor. On a
I figured as much.
DC> The "old" hand were generally no more than 30. Due to living
DC> conditions, that didn't live much past that age.
I can't imagine why.
PS> I'm not surprised. I wouldn't want to take the flagship out and then
PS> have some fool ground it on an unmarked shoal.
DC> Yet, it would still be fun to take it out and fire off a broadside
DC> on some unsuspecting passenger boat and then board it!
American privateers working for the Navy?
DC> Maybe they will build a replica of the Bon Homme Richard and the
DC> Serapis and we can really have some fun...
And who are you going to train to get shot at?
... Got kleptomania? Take something for it.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Return of the List 1/
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:41:21
EID:f0dd 204d9520
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312121a4
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Dan Ceppa mumbled "Re: Return of the List 1/"
DC> unwashed, such as Malignant Lump should be by my formal title,
DC> God Dan. The fact that they don't use it speaks harshly
PS> This is true. I humbly grovel before your superior wisdom.
DC> Psssst!!!! Gods, even of the Twinkies, don't grovel! (Hope
DC> none of the other readers didn't notice that....)
But I'm the kinder, gentler god.
PS> "...may have noticed." My, Dan, you're becoming quite the master of
PS> understatement.
DC> What can I say? I was pressed for a really good 4-letter word and
DC> went for the shorter version, so that Staal, a 5 letter word, BTW,
DC> could understand it.
... Health: The slowest possible rate of dying.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:41:22
EID:a47e 204d9520
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312121a5
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "Evidence"
AM> Then why didn't life evolve to suit Mars, Venus, ect.?
PS> How do we know that it didn't? (That's the trouble with life as we
PS> *don't* know it. It might not be possible for us to detect with what
AM> No, thats the benefit, it can't be proven.
Neither can a designer. Are we at an impasse yet?
PS>science would call conventional methods). What's your definition of
PS> life, anyway?
AM> So in your opinion Venus and Mars could well be teeming with
AM> life, And the pictures and soil samples are mistaken. Hmmmm. And I
AM> thought my religion was based on faith.
I'm admitting the possibility, Andrew. I'm not saying that it has to be
so. There's no faith involved--merely the acknowledgement that we don't
know enough about the way the universe works to say conclusively what
life is or where it might be found in every instance that it occurs.
... 6.66 x 10^2 Scientific notation of The Beast.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:41:22
EID:ff33 204d9520
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312121a6
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "flood"
AM> Its not everyday you see a dead man alive. That would qualify for a
AM> flash bulb memory.
PS> It isn't every day that a figure charges into a classroom full of
PS> college students, waves a gun around, and leaves, yet the researcher
PS> who conducted this experiment found that the eyewitnesses were almost
PS> all wrong about the figure (a woman dressed in black, not a large black
PS> man), the gun (a handgun, not an automatic weapon), and the figure's
PS> actions (waved the gun, not threatened the professor).
AM> Not a good comparison. The disciples walked with Christ for three
AM> years. I think they would know what he looked like.
And these 500 eyewitnesses? Did they all know him for three years?
AM> The apostles and the others who seen Christ alive testified to it
AM> right in Jerusalem where it happened. All they would have to do is
PS> If you read the stories, you find that they all differ in some
PS> details. Matthew describes incidents that none of the other three even
AM> If the accounts were precisly the same the you would claim they
AM> worked in kahouzt.
I would admit the possibility. The possibility still exists. You, on the
other hand, seem adamant in denying that such a possibility exists. Why?
PS> mention, for instance. Further, you are making the conclusion that the
PS> people who wrote the gospels were all telling the truth, and further
PS> still, you seem to be resting on their accounts as the only evidence
PS> you need of this event, yet dead people getting up and walking around
PS> is clearly an extraordinary event. Where is your extraordinary
PS> evidence?
AM> produce a body, and that would be the end of it. Were it all a
After 2000 years? Don't make me laugh.
AM> hoax, would they carry on in the face of torture and death? What
AM> did they gain?
Not being a fanatic, I cannot tell you what they might gain from carrying
on a hoax if they were indeed overzealous in their beliefs. But I know from
experience that people have a nasty habit of believing what they want to
believe--and that might not necessarily coincide with reality.
PS> Fanatics often do things that are beyond the grasp of the average
PS> human mind, Andrew. Humans are curious creatures: we are, in many
PS> instances, willing to suffer and die for ideas. It happened in many
of
PS> the wars that we fought and it happens on a less extreme scale nearly
PS> every day.
AM> Yes, history has shown that people are willing to die for beliefs
AM> they thought were true. But it has not shown that people are
AM> willing to die miserable deaths for something they know all to
AM> well to be a outrageous lie. Then lead others in the same lie, to
I have not excluded the possibility that the disciples were only seeing
what they wanted to see, Andrew. Have you thrown that one out?
AM> cast out and excommunicated from thier own communities. To live as
AM> virtual vagabonds. Then there is the witness of Paul of Tarsus. A
AM> man who persecuted the early church, but went on to become its
AM> most staunch defender. Here again is an individual who threw away
A man whose actions, by the account available, mark him as one with a
fanatical personality--and fanatics are notoriously prone to being more
interested in their overzealousness than in the object of said behavior.
AM> everything to become a follower of Christ. And he too claims to
AM> have seen Christ. Have you read his writings? Would you ascribe
AM> them to a deranged person?
If someone told me that he saw a light and heard a voice after falling,
my first conclusion would be that he'd suffered brain damage. If someone
told me that he'd seen a dead man walking around, I'd wonder about the
state of his mental health.
I have at no time rejected the possibility that the Bible is utterly
true. But the evidence I've seen doesn't support Biblical conclusions
and statements--not to the degree that would be required of such
extraordinary claims.
PS> In a court of law, this contention would be dismissed on the ground
PS> that there is an overwhelming lack of evidence to support it.
AM> The jurors would listen to all the testimony in the New Testament
AM> and decide on the believability and integrity of the writers.
But would they not also have to pay attention to the Old Testament,
and view the inconsistencies in the actions of the god depicted there
when compared with the god of the New Testament.
AM> Also, they would be presented with archeology digs that support at
AM> least some of the testimony. If the world were a jury, at least
AM> some have not dismissed it.
And they would also be presented with quite a bit of geological and
paleological evidence which doesn't support the claims given.
PS> This is a pointless rebuttal, Andrew. Just because something has been
PS> impressed upon the minds of millions does not automatically make it
PS> true-- it just makes it popular.
AM> No, I still stand by this contention. If Christ hadn't risen you
AM> and I would never have heard of him. Can you name another person
AM> who was crucified? If his followers decided to make up this
Yes, I can. His name was Jehohanan, and he was crucified circa AD 70
in the Roman province of Judaea. (It's amazing what archaeology can
do, isn't it?) Spartacus was crucified as well.
... Coincidence? No. Cthulhu.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876
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SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:41:22
EID:2bc8 204d9520
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312121a7
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "Viability"
PS> If he loved us, and he were omnipotent, he could have found a better
PS> way to do it than having someone nailed to a cross.
AM> Its consistent throughout the bible. Without the shedding of blood
AM> there is no forgiveness for sins.
Why make the shedding of blood a requirement at all? Is God a bloodthirsty
god?
... "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he centered the crosshairs on Tigger.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: legend
|Date: 13 Feb 96 17:49:06
EID:8de6 204d8e20
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 1211e5a1
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4a5a12b1
Hello Katherine!
Katherine Wintersnight wrote in a message to Michael Hardy:
KW> This sounds more like half a century than the figure of
KW> 10-12 years that you gave me above. A half a century is
KW> plenty of time for a legend to get started, especially if
KW> you have vigorous proselytizers pushing it.
KW> There was ample time for legend to creep into the story.
KW> Legend making starts at once, not some undetermined time
KW> later, Mike. Legend making is started by the eye witnesses
KW> to the spawning event, and grow rapidly.
Let me give you a legend sample which I KNOW is untrue, even
though most people (Israelis and Americans included) believe
this is a real happening:
The Legend:
During WWII King Christian X of Denmark showed his disapproval
to the German occupation by wearing the "Star of David" himself
when Danish Jews were forced to exhibit it on their cloth.
Later the Germans retaliated by setting trip wires on the route
where he took his daily horse ride, causing him a bad fall.
The Truth:
No Jew in Denmark was ever forced to wear a "Star of David" during
WWII. When Gestapo finally got around to strike and round up
the Jews for "resettlement" in concentration camps in October 43
they have already had a warning (by a German officer), and the
majority had either gone underground or escaped to Sweden.
Thus the King was never involved in the matter.
As all horse riders know - accidents happen. The King did had a
fall, purely accidental, was not badly hurt, and was back on his
morning tours a few weeks later.
How do I know? I lived in Copenhagen during WWII - a time where
rumors ran rampant, and nothing of the kind was ever said.
Same story after the war, where every emotional war happening was
magnified and discussed again and again.
Here we have a Legend, made by ????, and widely accepted. And there
is not even anything supernatural involved.
Even so, the passion some people show to defend it is astonishing.
I have had discussion with some Canadians in their 20s who's Danish
grandparents immigrated just after the war. Obviously these youngsters
had been told some tall wartime stories, and because "Grandpa/ma"
was the teller it HAD to be true.
Having seen with my own eyes how Legends can be made and the truth
be distorted in less than 50 years - I have grave doubts about the
accuracy of any of the stories in OT/NT.
Human nature will go to any length to make wishful thinking look
real.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 7107/21 9 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hardly!
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:15:46
EID:6179 204ca1e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 311fa02d
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 150f9ba6
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Dies solis February 11 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad David Worrell:
FR> It seems that Hardly only reads messages which he feels come from people
FR> who won't point out his obvious lies and superstitions.
I have to admit, I suddenly got "The Jesse Cold Shoulder" from him at one
point, unless by some strange coincidence all my echomails to him didn't
make it to the BBS from which he posts. Guess my rights were violated.
"Christmas trees."
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Leon Askin Fan Club - 214/412-8457 (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:17:54
EID:41eb 204ca220
MSGID: 1:124/9005 311fa0e7
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1395977b
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Sean!
Jovis dies February 08 1996, Dixit Sean McCullough ad Steve Quarrella:
>> Welp, I was baptized Catholic, even though I'm as Catholic as Pat
>> Robertson is.
SM> His Holiness John Paul II (Jakob Cardinal Wojtyla) will likely take
SM> offense at this.
That's "Karol Wojtyla." He can be offended all he likes, as the Vatican's
territories do not include my property in Texas.
Yet. :-/
SM> It is, after all, an inference that the Pontiff and MISTER ROBert$on
are
SM> members of the same biological species, as well as a painful reminder
that
SM> the Pontiff has to share a planet with the same, as well. :-)
SM> As do WE.... :-(
We have to share the planet with BOTH of them...we might as well have had
Pius XIII, as this guy sure isn't John Paul. :-/
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Leon Askin Fan Club - 214/412-8457 (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
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SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Tim Pauly
|Sub: Revised (by ME) HS list
|Date: 12 Feb 96 20:57:22
EID:e5e3 204ca720
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 620bbb80
REPLY: 1:2613/377 56b99b50
TP> No need to. Say we're both riding in a car and we meet a semi
TP> head on at 60 MPH. If I'm wrong, according to you, I'm just
TP> non-existant. If you're wrong, well... I think you'd have more to
TP> lose.
The semi is real. There is no evidence of a god, despite wht you posted
below.
TP> The physical evidence, as far as I am concerned, all around me.
TP> All I have to do is look at the creation in this world, (i.e all
TP> living things), and the way they are formed so beautifully and
This is a wild assed guess. You wnat nature to reflect your god so you
just claim that it does. It is not evidence.
TP> wondrously, and that's my evidence. Darwin's theory is
TP> laughable, at best. I find it pretty amusing that one would
TP> actually believe a theory that states that living things
TP> evolved from a micro-organism. I guess that little
TP> micro-organism eventually grew, and knew it needed ears to
You have closed your mind to the truth of science. Were you to study a
simple biology text, you would find out why bacteria have no ears. You
might also find out why people tht believe this stuff have no brain.
TP> hear with, so it grew them. It knew it needed eyes to see
TP> with, so then, after millions of years, it grew them too...
TP> It knew it needed to feel things, so it grew nerves. And
TP> doggone if it couldn't enjoy breakfast, so it grew taste
All very true. Are you interested in knowing how and why or do you wnat
to remain willfully ignorant.
TP> So what evidence do you have that evolution, or whatever other
TP> theory you go by, is true?
The progression of life forms over millenia. there is evidence not only
in geological strata, but in the field of molecular biology. Let's start
with a simple question...."Why do humans and chimps share 98% sequence similarity
in their hemoglobin molecules?
>> Hmmmm...do you dash out the brains of children and rape the
>> women if your god commands you to?
TP> My God would never command me to do so. What makes you think He
TP> would?
Says so in your bible.
>> Do you have evidence for this hell? Or heaven? Why is it
TP> Physical evidence, no. Spiritual evidence, yes. I know because I
TP> know my God is real, and I know what He says to be true.
There is no such thing as spiritual evidence. Until you show me a spirit,
your tirade here is worthless.
>> that you believe that a jew or moslem that spends their life
>> doing good works goes to hell simply for not believing the
>> same way that you do?
TP> Simple. God gave the way, through His Son. It's pretty easy, but
TP> most choose not to do so because they think they're above doing
TP> what it takes.
Answer the question....."Do you believe that someone will suffer eternal
damnation for worshipping another god or not accepting your savior?"
YES [ ]
NO [ ]
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 12 Feb 96 21:07:39
EID:0bb0 204ca8e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 620bc50b
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 311d057a
AM> I never quoted the odds. But here they are according to Francis
AM> Crick, L.M. Murkhin and Carl Sagan. Difficulty of evolving
AM> humans by chance processes alone are 1 in 10-2,000,000,000.
AM>
The operative word here is "humans". It may well be that other factors
would cause something very different to evolve. Don't you think that this
is what a distinguished scientist like Dr. Sagan really meant. If you are
trying to tell us that he doesn't believe in evolution, you would be wrong.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: A Visit 4/4
|Date: 12 Feb 96 21:12:08
EID:f14c 204ca980
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 620bcd92
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 311d54f4
MG>> Party favors for the Marquis d'Sade's birthday?
MG>> June 2, btw. They're getting an early start.
LB> ??? What's June 2? Other than my birthday?
It's the Marquis d'Sade's birthday, the man who so generously donated his
name to the word "sadism".
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Rodney Green
|Sub: Religion Debate?
|Date: 12 Feb 96 21:14:02
EID:bc70 204ca9c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 620bd108
REPLY: 1:260/801.0 311e54a0
RG> Why debate about religion when we could talk about Jesus?
OK...
Jesus....Savior or Weenie from Hell?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Styx Allum
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 13 Feb 96 21:28:00
EID:9261 204dab80
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 161532d3
REPLY: 1:289/80 311F052C
>AH> Mormons must be the true Christians - they have the
>AH> newest extra story book (Testament III.)
> Not so. According to the *ORIGINAL* Christian book (The Bible).
> Revelations 22:18-19.
It never ceases to amaze me how many card-carrying Christians
fail to notice that "Revelation" has no s on the end of it.
If they can't get the frickin' title correct, "Lord only knows"
how much of the MEANING they botch up.
> Figured I'd type it in manually. I'd hate to see you get the
> dust off of yours all over your hands, if you have one.
Mine is right next to my desk (for reference). Circa 1869,
and well maintained. (Unlike my other one, which has bullet
holes through it. Some bibles are holier than others.)
I'd wager that I read my bible more closely than what you read
of yours.
> * Origin: Terminal Velocity * Macks Creek, Mo
---
* Origin: Guns don't kill people. Hypervelocity projectiles do. (1:152/20)
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PATH: 152/20 8 270/101 218/801
|From: Styx Allum
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 13 Feb 96 21:51:01
EID:2f90 204dae60
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 161532d4
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 311ea652
>> God loves unconditionally.
>SA> Does he love those that he condemns to eternal hellfire?
>SA> Unconditional, eh?
> Yes He does Styx,
Then I find his style of love to be undesirable, as it inflicts
pain and suffering needlessly. That, to me, is not love;
any more than what you would no doubt consider rape to be.
> He doesn't reject you, you reject Him.
Your god would first have to exist, for me to reject it.
What I reject is your unfounded dogmatic belief system.
>> He is just.
>SA> But he sends people to hell for not worshipping him on blind faith?
> No, they condemn themselves for rejecting Christ who made away
> for us.
You'll have a hard time getting ANYONE to believe that people CHOOSE
to burn in eternal hellfire. He/it would need to place them there.
That's not love.
> I don't believe on the basis of 'blind faith'.
You obviously have no concept of what the term means, to deny it so.
>> He knows the future as if it already happened.
>SA> But you pray to him when he already knows what you want?
> Thats an acknowledgement of God.
No acknowledgement is necessary if he's already that far ahead of you.
Anything that you do would be redundant, as omnisciences requires
predestiny. There would be no way for you to change an outcome
that is already known. If you'll bother to think that through,
you'll see that free will is not possible if the outcome is known
before the choice is made. You must make the choice that is known.
Otherwise, your "omniscient" god would be MISTAKEN.
You can't have it both ways, Andrew. To believe in omnisicence AND
free will... is to prove that you haven't thought it through.
>> He is not a man that He should lie.
>SA> You have not read your bible; otherwise, you would know that he did.
> Then where is your chapter and verse?
Ah... the bait has been nibbled on. Are you prepared to risk something
in exchange for my time to look it up? If I provide you with the
evidence that you seek, will you publicly proclaim that non-theists
here know your bible better than you - a Christian - do?
That is my condition. Accept it, or walk away the coward.
Show some backbone for your lord - unless you are afraid to.
[heh - either way, you're busted. I love a loaded deck.]
>> He changes not.
>SA> Then explain why the new testament differs from the old testament.
> Because there two different contracts with man, but God is still
> the same.
If man is still the same, who changed the contracts?
>> There is none beside him.
>SA> Then explain who "us" and "our" referred to in Genesis 1:26
>SA> 1:26 And God said, Let us make
>SA> man in our own image, after our
>SA> likeness: and let them have dominion
>SA> [...]
> Thats the doctrine of the Trinity. There is one God, composed of
> three identities.
If so, why does he not consistently refer to himself in the plural?
Why does he command that you should have no other gods before him?
If there were no others, such a statement would be meaningless.
Would you go into a zoo and proclaim "No unicorns allowed!" unless
you believed that such creatures were to actually exist?
He must have felt it to be very important, to make it a commandment.
> Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent
> bystander.
Nah. Just condemn them to hell. Love them to death.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 13 Feb 96 22:10:02
EID:cf63 204db140
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 161532d5
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89220E26
>KD> I'll tell you why we haven't made much progress
>KD> - Conservinazi or liberal, most of our legislators
>KD> are MALE.
>SA> [yawn] Women outnumber men. That means that more women are
>SA> eligible to vote than men. Obviously, women therefor vote
>SA> for men.
> Yet. Styx, men still out number women into both elective and
> selective offices.
Because they received majority votes. Voters are of both genders.
For that reason, voter gender is not the contributing factor to
whether someone gets elected or not. It's merely a matter of who
the majority votes for.
> Think about that...
All the more reason for women to vote for someone else.
Ballots are secret, Dan. There are women politicians.
They just don't tend to make it into office, for whatever reason.
One reason being that not enough of the women majority sees fit
to vote for them. If they did, then men could not stop it from
happening. For this reason, I find that assigning the blame solely
to men... is ludicrous. It is mathematically demonstratable that
it takes two to tango in this scenario. Any other implications
would be prejudicially motivated.
I personally find all of this gender bias revolting.
If I find that a person is worthy of voting for, I vote for him/her.
It would be a rare instance that I would make the person's gender
a factor in determining whether or not I would vote for him/her.
I can find Bill to be just as revolting as the first lady.
Geeze. I wonder when people will protest the name "White House"
because we've only had caucasian presidents. Does that mean that
white women are prejudiced for not electing any black presidents?
Geezus. This whole premise is silly, and smacks of martyrdom
by those who prefer to consider themselves as "the persecuted".
-Styx
---
* Origin: Open the pod-bay doors, HAL. Let some fresh air in. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 13 Feb 96 22:15:03
EID:ace5 204db1e0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 161532d6
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 12137710
>SA> Russia is touted as being an atheistic country, which
>SA> encompasses one sixth of the world's land surface. Just FYI.
> That was when they were under Communism. The Russian take on
> Christianity is starting to get back into full swing there now that
> they actually have the freedom to do so.
Alas, that is both fortunate and unfortunate.
Give kids knives to play with, and some will cut themselves.
Such is religion in oppressed societies.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Epilepsy
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:09:04
EID:37ea 204da120
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 12136710
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89220E2E
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to All:
[..]
DC> Also, is there another Echo that may be more appropriate for
DC> getting additional information on this subject?
Check out NEUROLOGY. It's backboned. Low flow, but I'm sure someone there
will enlighten you. Also, you may want to check out GRAND_ROUNDS or ASK_A_NURSE.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:13:41
EID:89d4 204da1a0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 12137710
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 159285e4
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Styx Allum wrote in a message to The Raven:
SA> Russia is touted as being an atheistic country, which encompasses
SA> one sixth of the world's land surface. Just FYI.
That was when they were under Communism. The Russian take on Christianity
is starting to get back into full swing there now that they actually have
the freedom to do so.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: CHRISTMAS
|Date: 13 Feb 96 01:42:36
EID:8da5 204d0d40
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311fed06
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e49243f4
10 Feb 96 15:49, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> I ain't a-eatin' that damned chocolate pie.
DW>> Unless, of course, Wintersnight shows up in that "outfit" (if it
DW>> can be called that) that she described. :)
KW> David, I wear that outfit with robes, too.
Not if you want me to eat that pie, you won't. :)
KW> Now talk nice to Judith, and I'll try to convince her to make a
KW> french meringue crust for that chocolate pie. I do promise that
KW> if they slip you something, at least the carrier will taste
KW> great.
Gee, thanks, Katherine. I suppose you'll brain me with that fryin' pan of
yours too after I finish the pie, right? :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: CHRISTMAS
|Date: 13 Feb 96 02:00:19
EID:6b99 204d1000
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311ff0f2
11 Feb 96 08:05, Judith Bandsma wrote to Dan Ceppa:
DC>> -- ! Origin: TRAVEL ONLINE / ST. LOUIS ONLINE - (314) 561-4956
DC>> (1:100/635)
DC>> Judith, there was at least one other message that you sent in
JB> I'll forward this to my sysop and ask. I never saw anything like this
JB> before and I only upload my echo mail locally. Thanks for letting me
JB> know.
The same BBS has been grunging mail from me. I netmailed the sysop, but
he hasn't pulled his head out of his ass far enough to answer me yet.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Him
|Date: 13 Feb 96 01:47:36
EID:a166 204d0de0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311fee38
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 311d54f3
10 Feb 96 16:37, Lynda Bustilloz wrote to David Worrell:
LB>> You chose the one phrase I specifically asked you not to pull on
LB>> me ever again. I'll tell you what, I'll be less sensitive when
LB>> you become more humorous. :) <-+--+- There. A smiley so you
LB>> dare not take that as anything but a jest.
DW>> damn! My catty-bitch meter just exploded! > plastic out of my face>;)
LB> It was a JOKE, David! Didn't you see the smiley? ;)
Nope, the CB meter exploded just before that point. I was too busy digging
the pastic out of my skin to notice any smilies.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: I'M BACK
|Date: 13 Feb 96 01:45:40
EID:246e 204d0da0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311fed8a
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cc0915e9
10 Feb 96 15:49, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to David Worrell:
DW> KW>> Don't tell me, you won't settle for canned frosting.
DW>> Not from a self-proclaimed "hellaciously good cook".
DW>> Get those shoes off and start cookin'. :)
KW> Fine, roll up your sleeves and get over to the sink.
Real men don't do dishes. I'll get you a maid, but she'll have to be barefoot,
too. :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolungelica
|Date: 13 Feb 96 01:52:51
EID:23a4 204d0e80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311fef38
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 311d0576
09 Feb 96 11:41, Andrew Masten wrote to Preston Simpson:
PS>> You misunderstand. The default state is non-belief. You claim
PS>> that God judged Nazi Germany. Got any real evidence of this, or
PS>> just your wishes and make-believe?
AM> I expressed an opinion.
And, as usual, you did not back said opinion up with any facts. You didn't
even use your normal bag of tricks and justify with with faulty statistics,
supposition, hearsay, and just plain old general ignorace.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 13 Feb 96 01:54:36
EID:f981 204d0ec0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 311fef94
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 311d0579
09 Feb 96 12:02, Andrew Masten wrote to Preston Simpson:
PS>> And a third to a half of all "unborn" infants die before they can
PS>> be born. Guess God's a bigger killer of children than humanity
PS>> ever can be.
AM> Thats just inflammatory rhetoric.
Are you denying the claim that up to 1/2 of all unborn infants die before
they can be born? It seems God doesn't care as much for the unborn child
as you do.
---
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:42:00
EID:fadc 204d9540
MSGID: 1:272/99 00152ada
(On 02-12-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
MH> BK> What do you beleive with regards to reincarnation?
MH> I don't believe in reincarnation, but I did in a previous life. :)
Not bad:) Seriously tho, do you?
MH> Cheers!
Hey! That's my line!
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... "Creationist nonsense" is redundant.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 9044 þ
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/10
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:42:00
EID:bb41 204d9540
MSGID: 1:272/99 00152ae7
(On 02-12-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
MH> BK> Not bad...get to work on it. Perhaps, in 2000 years, it will be
MH> BK> *just* as sacred a document as your Bible, and people will be
MH> BK> defending it as whole heartedly as you are defending *your*
MH> BK> particular myths. Throw a few translations in there, and see
MH> BK> what that does for you book, as well:).
MH> However, no one would believe it today.
They would believe it was a good story...
MH> Yet, for your purposes in
MH> picking up this argument, you have to assume that people in a.d. 40
MH> accepted an even more farfetched story
Well, at least you agree with me:) I'll have to keep this one for the
quote file.
MH> about someone who had just
MH>died in a.d. 33, who lived in the same place they did and that they
MH>may have even known personally.
How many people did? Are you sure that the authors even believed it?
MH> BK> What makes you so sure people of the time beleived them?
MH> BK> Perhaps, given enough time,
MH> ROFL! Because every piece of available evidence corroborates the
MH>fact that they did, and none refutes it. Nero was burning Christians
MH>by the early 60s a.d., so obviously people had believed it for some
MH>time before then.
MH> BK> Really? Do tell...your scholars (funny how they always seem to
MH> BK> show up when you need them) state that the Jesus story is
MH> BK> absolutley original, and unlike the other myths of the day?
^^^^^^^^^^^
MH> Is that what I said? No, it isn't. Of course there may be some vague
MH> similarities -- Jesus had two eyes, Mithra had two eyes ... Jesus
MH>had one liver, Mithra had one liver -- but they really don't amount
MH>to much when examined closely.
I was not limiting my comments to Mithra only, Mike. And I think you've
not examined the myth of Mithra closely, if at all. Or if you have,
your conveniently ignoring it...Just keep chanting "it's true, it's
true" to yourself.
MH> Whenever there are strong parallels between Christianity and some
MH> mystery religion, the evidence always indicates that Christianity
MH>was around first, and any borrowing of ideas went the opposite
MH>direction from what you'd like to think.
Tell us about this evidence, Mike. Document it, at least. You mean to
tell me that Mithraism, a religion that predated x-tianty by hundreds of
years, borrowed from it? What about all the Greco-Roman myths? And the
egyptian myths themselves? Luaghable...next you'll tell me that
Christianity borrowed from Judaism!
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Fundamentalism: The only disease where the afflicted refuse the cure.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 9044 þ
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: scientists
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:42:00
EID:e3a6 204d9540
MSGID: 1:272/99 00152af3
(On 02-12-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
MH> MH> I mean what I said.
MH> BK> So, none of them have stated that *your* god is the "necessary
MH> BK> Creator"? Let's not equivocate now, Mike. How many have them
MH> BK> provided evidence, not only for the existence of a creator, but
MH> BK> evidence that it is *your* creator, in addition to evidence
MH> BK> that none of the other "creators" exist?
MH> I said what I meant.
Ah, now you're resorting to the Horton the Elephant defense. Not
surprising, judging from your mentality:)
MH> MH> MH> Unless you want to assert that their conclusion to that
MH> MH> Why? Dogamtically insisting that no god is possible strikes you
MH> MH> as "objective?"
MH> BK> I'm sorry. I have not come across any authors of scientific
MH> BK> texts that have felt that was important to the subject of the
MH> BK> text to include any regard for the supernatural, positive or
MH> BK> negative. I've not read "Gravity is the reason things seem to
MH> BK> fall to the earth, no gods are required". So, it came as a
MH> BK> surprise to me that your scientists were doing so. I would not
MH> BK> regard as credible *any* "scientist" who discusses things
MH> BK> *outside* of this universe...that's hardly being objective. Or
MH> BK> did your "creator" create the universe from within the
MH> BK> universe? Try the ranch dressing...
MH> Try reading some of their books, instead of criticizing something
MH>you know nothing about.
Because there are a wealth of science books written by credible authors
that I would much rather spend my time on.
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... You mean they eat their god?? Ewww, gross...
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: death
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:42:00
EID:d26d 204d9540
MSGID: 1:272/99 00152b0b
(On 02-10-96 Michael Hardy replied to Shelby Sherman)
MH> SS> A christian BELIEF, supported by....your christians belief?
MH> SS> Where is your evidence, Mikey?
MH> It's a chain of reasoning, really. The evidence is good that the
MH> earliest followers of Jesus believed him to be divine and to have
MH>risen from the grave. I find the arguments in this regard to be
MH>persuasive.
Heheh...ya wanna buy a bridge from me?
MH> I can find no plausible explanation for this belief
[SNAP!] Psst! You don't have to *explain* belief, Mike. Try
explaining David Koresh's belief of divinity, and his followers belief
in him as well. Maybe there's "evidence" for it?:)
MH>except that it's
MH> true. And because I hold no a priori rejection of the idea of a
MH> God, I have no reason to insist that there *must* be a naturalistic
MH> explanation.
MH> Because I consider the case for Jesus's divine nature to be strong,
MH> I accept what Jesus taught about, among other things, life after
MH> death. I have no *direct* evidence of it, but there is evidence of
MH>the truth of the claims about Jesus, and that validates the
MH>teachings *of* Jesus.
Let's see. On the one hand, we have Mike. The intelligent Christian
who only believes because of "evidence" (would you believe if there was
no evidence for your mythology? Answer carefully, or you might be
labeled faithless). On the other hand, we have the *other* religions of
the world. *Clearly* unevidenced, else Mikey would believe in them. I
guess that makes Moslems, Jews, Pagans, et al., a bunch of silly fucks,
while *you* are truly to be respected for your intelligent choice.
ROFLMAO!
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... "Ah. So you're a waffle man!" -- Talkie Toaster
þ CMPQwk 1.42 9044 þ
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: treatise
|Date: 13 Feb 96 18:42:00
EID:728c 204d9540
MSGID: 1:272/99 00152b18
(On 02-11-96 Michael Hardy replied to Kelsey Bjarnason)
M H>-> MH> Plenty. The whole point is that God became a man and did
MH>-> MH> endure suffering. You don't think being scourged and then
MH>-> MH> nailed up woul hurt?
MH>-> Since you're still spewing this line, allow me to reintroduce my
MH>-> litt treatise upon the "suffering" of your God.
MH>-> Since we know that the universe is some 15 billion years or less
MH>-> old, I will use this as a starting figure. Please note that if
MH>-> God has existed longer than this, it merely makes your "suffering"
MH>-> argument even sillier.
MH>-> So. 15 billion years. Now, let's suppose, for the sake of
MH>-> argument, that J.C. was nailed to the cross and hung there for,
MH>-> oh, three days. Let's do some math.
MH>-> 15 billion years * 356 days / year = 5.475 * 10^12 days. Now, to
MH>-> convert 3 days to a percentage of this, as I recall, we would
MH>-> divide 3 by this figure and multiply by 100. That give us a
MH>-> value of: 5.47945.... * 10^-11 percent.
MH>-> Okay. So that's the percentage of one's life which, if spent
MH>-> suffering, you seem to consider significant.
MH>
MH> You're judging it based purely on quantity. That misses the point
MH>entirely.
MH>A perfectly holy and sinless
Evidence, please, that Christ was sinless. Him *saying* so doesn't
count. BTW, why was he circumsized?
MH>being allowed much of the sin and evil
MH>that would ever be committed in the world to be placed on his
MH>shoulders.
Good! I can sin as much as I like, and still go to heaven. Seems
Christ took care of my account a long time ago. I can even commit the
ultimate "sin" by being an atheist...fantastic. Either that, or your
god didn't such a good job...
MH> That is an immeasureable sacrifice. The amount of time he
MH>spent suffering physical pain is absolutely irrelevant.
Sorry Mike, such an ephemeral "sacrifice" won't cut it here...Spending
time on a cross is the *only* thing relevant. Kind of unimpressive,
when you consider the pain *other* humans have gone through.
MH>However, given the snide tone of this post and others, it's obvious
MH>you made up your mind and nailed it shut long ago. Therefore, I'm not
MH>going to waste any significant amount of *my* time arguing with you
MH>about it.
'Twould me so much more interesting if you'd stop making such excuses.
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Christian education = A Nun with a whip.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 9044 þ
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Mormons
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:51:40
EID:447e 204da660
Whilst masticating on , Anthony Grigor-Scott (3:711/933)
wrote to Alan Hess:
AG> Whereas the New Testament is already written in the Old. For instance,
the
AG> Seven Seals of Revelation is already in Genesis 1 and 2, the Seven Church
AG> Ages of Matthew 24 and Revelation 1-3, and Calvary, in Leviticus 23,
the
AG> Book of Mormon disagrees with both Old and New Testaments.There can
be no
AG> `extra story books', according to Deuteronomy 12:32, nothing can be
added
AG> to or diminished from what is already written; perhaps you should read
the
AG> old, old story before making an oaf of yourself.
You explained wonderfully why Testament II is a fraud. The writers plagiarized
segments of the Original Testament, and added to them in their new story
book.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Re: Mormons
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:59:47
EID:32b5 204da760
Whilst masticating on , Eric Hendrix (1:289/80)
wrote to Alan Hess:
AH>> Mormons must be the true Christians - they have the newest extra
AH>> story book (Testament III.)
EH> Not so. According to the *ORIGINAL* Christian book (The Bible).
EH> Revelations 22:18-19.
That's "Revelation", dummy. Besides, there is no original Christian book.
The original book is Jewish. Testament II is pieces of that, with other
additions.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
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|From: Roland
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:33:30
EID:2253 204d7c20
** Quoting Anthony Grigor-Scott to Roland **
A> Dear Brother Roland,
A>
A> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
A>
A> R> In Genesis 1:24 God created all animals on the earth..and later that
A> R> day he created man. In his image...
A>
A> Yes, but He did not _form_ them until Genesis 2. You must bear in mind
three
A> words: `bara' - to fashion out of nothing - ex nihlo; `asah' - to
A> fashion out of existing material; `yatsar' - to squeeze into shape.
A>
A> You see God `created' in His great thinking before the beginning - way
A> back in eternity. Then He made or spoke out His creation and still there
A> was nothing formed for we read in Genesis 2 there was no vegetation for
them
A> to eat. Then God formed man, then formed the animals from the highest
to the
A> lowest and brought them to Adam to name. And after His creation was
A> finsished, He made woman, the by-product. You may like to D/L or FREQ
the
A> files BB950106.ARJ and BB950116.ARJ which explain these things.
A>
A> R> But scientist have proven that therewas 65 million years between
the
A> R> death of the dinosaurs and the beginning of man....
A>
A> This is an error. Man and dinosoars lived on earth at the same time.
There
A> are many fossil footprints, etc which prove this as well as scupltures
and
A> stories and even stained glass windows. There is even the possibility
that
A> some dinosaurs live today. They were certainly in England and in parts
of
A> Europe about three hundred years ago. FREQ or D/L NATION*.ARJ which
are
A> published articles by Bill Cooper of England.One of which covers the
topic
A> in great detail.
A>
A> R> Did God create dinosaurs at the same time as man?
A>
A> They were formed AFTER man.
A>
A> R> Or did God create dinosaurs before that, perhaps as his first try
at a
A> R> living world..then realize that the dinosaurs were incapable of
A> R> worshiping him and destroy them...Then 65 million years later create
A> R> man.
A>
A> That would make God something of a dummy. He does not make mistakes nor
does
A> He need to `pactice'.
A>
A> Kind regards,
A>
A> Anthony Grigor-Scott
A>
A> --- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
A> * Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
A> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 3615/50 51
Since I am a Christian, it is difficult for me to even speculate that God
may
of made an error. But i am also very Scientificaly minded.
I do not think the Carbon-14 dating method is perfect....However i do think
that it is normally `close enough'. And these test have shown that there
was a
large gap in time between man and dinosaurs.
Also how can you explain that dinosaur and man fossils have never been found
in
the same relative area, at the same depth indicating that both existed in
the
same time frame.
And if man did exist at the same time as dinosaurs, would we not have been
prey
to them? And would not some human fossils have been found with teeth and
claw
marks on the bones? <--that is teeth and claw marks that conform to known
dinosaurs..
ttyl
Roland
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
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|From: Roland
|To: David Robins
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:43:06
EID:ed41 204d7d60
** Quoting David Robins to Roland **
D> ___ Quoting Roland to ALL re dinosaurs? on 01 Feb 96 15:28:40
D> Ro> I am a christain.. And i believe most of the Christian ideas. But
i
D> Ro> have on question....
D> 1) So am I, but you'll get no help in this conference as it's purpose
is
D> _anti_Christian.
D>
D> Ro> In Genesis 1:24 God created all animals on the earth..and later
that
D> Ro> day he created man. In his image...
D> I think it was a different day?
D> Ro> But scientist have proven that there was 65 million years between
the
D> Ro> death of the dinosaurs and the beginning of man....
D> Not proven conclusively.
D> Ro> Did God create dinosaurs at the same time as man? Or did God create
D> Ro> dinosaurs before that, perhaps as his first try at a living world..then
D> Ro> realize that the dinosaurs were incapable of worshiping him and
destroy
D> Ro> them...Then 65 million years later create man.
D> The "Taylor trail" is a recently discovered path that shows a human track
D> running through a dinosaur track. That and other evidene, samples, etc.
D> seem to indicate that man and dinosaur did once co-exist. I forget the
D> name of the lead scientist in that discovery but I can find it if you
want.
D>
D> Dave
D>
D> ú úùÄúÄù--Ä-ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-Ä--ÄùÄúÄùú ú
D> Overlord - sysop: Death's Vortex @ 1-905-892-5619
D> Vortex WHQ - F'REQ "VORTEX" for product list.
D> ú úùÄúÄù--Ä-ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-Ä--ÄùÄúÄùú ú
D>
D> ... That which does not kill us...will be darn funny some day.
D> --- No Walruses!
D> * Origin: Bloom County - Welland, Ontario >>(905) 732-9956<< (1:247/312)
D> SEEN-BY: 247/312 500 600 396/1 3615/50 51
If we did coexist with dinosaurs, how can you explain there extiction.
It is
known that 99% of dinosaurs were killed withen just a year or two. If
something happened that was so globaly destructive, how can you explain
that
humans and the other species existed...
At one time i though that Noah's flood could explain this, however only
a few
dinosaur fossils show evidence of extreme waterlog...If they ha drowned
in the
flood, there fossils would show evidence of there death in that mannor.
How can you explain humans surviving the death of the dinosaurs unless you
first assume that they lived, and died, long before the birth of humans?
Roland
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
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|From: John Prewett
|To: The Raven
|Sub: FOF update
|Date: 07 Feb 96 11:47:24
EID:57f6 20475de0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca0
FMPT 1012
SW> You actually cancelled your AOL membership becuase they are for Focus
SW> on the Family!!! Hahahahahahahahaha! Wake up Larry! No matter what
SW> online service you call your gonna find information and people who
TR> And just how smart do you think it is to keep giving money to a
TR> company who supports those we disagree with? I don't buy gas from
TR> Exxon because I don't like what they do to Alaska coastlines.
TR> Jack Butler
Hey,... be nice to Exxon,..
Exxon provided Alaskans a lot of JOBS that summer !
TR> ... "All truth is simple." Is that not doubly a lie? - Nietzsche
How does bald eagle taste ? Hmmmm, kinda
inbetween spotted owl and trumpeter swan.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: ALL
|Sub: pope p.o'd at prots
|Date: 07 Feb 96 12:02:22
EID:bef2 20476040
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca1
FMPT 1012
AP 6 Feb 96 21:39 EST V0488 The Associated Press.
GUATEMALA CITY (AP) -- Directly confronting the challenge to his church's
traditional dominance in Central America, Pope John Paul II accused Protestant
missionaries Tuesday of sowing "confusion and uncertainty" among Roman Catholics.
On his first visit to Central America in 13 years, the pope devoted the
second day of his stop in Guatemala to a series of reminders that the region
has been Catholic for centuries, and that many have given up their lives
for the church.
Protestant evangelical churches in Central America have surged in membership
in recent years, worrying Catholic leaders. About 30 percent of Guatemala's
10.7 million people now identify themselves as Protestants -- the largest
percentage of non-Catholics in any Central American country.
The poor and Indians may be most prone to stray,
and in need of guidance from Catholic clergy,
the pope said in an evening prayer service in a Guatemala City park.
He said they were the most affected by the "proliferation of sects and new
religious groups that generate confusion and uncertainty among Catholics.
It is necessary to strengthen your evangelization." [------------]
The pope suggested that a peace process begun in Esquipulas -
- the scene of 1986 peace accords that helped end civil wars in Nicaragua
and El Salvador -- was yet unfinished.
"I dearly hope that Guatemala can conclude a definitive peace accord in
the very near future," he said. Although mildly phrased, the pontiff's statement
could exert substantial force on both sides in the civil war between the
Guatemalan government and poverty-stricken Indians. [-----------------]
-END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Former Soviet Union
|Date: 07 Feb 96 12:21:46
EID:373c 204762a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca2
FMPT 1012
SA> And Brave Sir Jesse ran away, screaming "Former Soviet Union"!
MB> Or do you deny that we have these social problems and civil rights
MB> violations in this country?
JJ> You know well that I do not deny the social problems and civil right
JJ> violations we have had in this country. Comparing Reno to Stalin,
JJ> however, is sick, and you know it. Do you deny that the Bill of
JJ> Rights is the single most valuable document adopted by any government
JJ> to protect the rights of human beings? Do you deny that the former
JJ> Soviet Union did not protect any of those basic human rights? This
JJ> nation has far too-often failed to live up to those noble ideals, but
JJ> they are still there as our standard, they are a wonderful standard,
JJ> and they clearly distinguish this nation from the former Soviet
JJ> Union.
JJ>
SA> Actually, the constitution of the Soviet Union had some pretty noble
SA> language in it as well - I remember seeing excerpts from it a few
SA> years back. However, the problem was in politicians not abiding by
SA> its rules. It is possible you know - constitutions - even yours - are
SA> only pieces of paper with pretty writing on them. A politician can
SA> swear up and down to uphold it all he wants, but if he wishes to turn
SA> around and violate it, there's really nothing stopping him (especially
SA> if the other politicians around him wish to do the same.) And you
SA> HAVE had politicians go against the constitution in the past - Joe
SA> McCarthy and Richard Nixon both come to mind - and while he didn't set
SA> up gulags for left-wing dissidents, I'm sure he would have liked to
..
SA> and the fear he seems to have engendered was just about as effective
SA> in any event. Speaking as an outsider, I find the only major
SA> difference between US and USSR extremism is in what sort of control
SA> each seeks (in the case of the US) and sought (in the case of the
SA> USSR) over the rest of the world. The US is just as "imperialistic"
SA> as the USSR ever was - only the US seeks to make the rest of the world
SA> subject to its economic interests, while the USSR, at times, sought
SA> more direct political control. And given the choices, I'd rather be
SA> free of the influence of either, thanks. Unfortunately, my own
SA> country has become an economic satellite of the US, just as much as
SA> Poland was a political satellite of the USSR. And while the US didn't
SA> use military force to acheive its goals, the tactics it DID use were
SA> just as pernicious. And I won't even mention the terror tactics the
SA> US has used in Central American countries to make sure that they
SA> conform to the "Central American Model" the US destined for them -
SA> mainly, in making them fodder for US business interests to exploit
SA> freely.
S.America.Knights of Malta.Central America.Peter Grace.
Liberation Theology.Jesuits.S.Mexico.CIA.William Casey.
Now at least you have a few clues.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC2
|Date: 07 Feb 96 12:27:58
EID:657c 20476360
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca3
FMPT 1012
GR> EDUCATION Pat Robertson on public schools: "They say vouchers would
GR> spell the end of public schools in America. To which we say
GR> 'So what?' For all we've been getting for our tax dollars out of
GR> the public schools, they should have disappeared years ago."
GR> (The Turning Tide, p. 239)
From- National Catholic Reporter page 6-7, January 26, 1996
BISHOPS MAKE PLEA FOR FUNDING
Despite a plea from the state's Catholic bishops, the New Jersey Legislature
ended its 1995 session Jan. 9 without new funding for charity careÑleaving
Catholic hospitals holding the bag for about $2 million a week in unreimbursed
services. The former legislation expired Dec. 31.
In a statement in mid-December, the state's bishops warned that a failure
to revive the charity-care funding system "would not only expose the urban
poor to a denial of health care but also would be catastrophic to our hospitals."
They called on Gov. Christine Todd Whitman and the legislature "to lay
aside any partisan differences and adopt a joint approach to this problem."
They warned that not funding charity care would exacerbate problems the
poor and elderly already face from expected federal cutbacks in Medicare
and Medicaid.
There are 13 Catholic hospitals in the state, most serving predominantly
urban areas where the highest levels of charity care occur. In 1995 the
Catholic hospitals provided at least $92 million in charity care that was
or would be reimbursed by the public fund. -END QUOTE-
May as well have taxpayers support Roman Catholic schools.
Taxpayers already support Roman Catholic hospitals.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC3
|Date: 07 Feb 96 12:33:46
EID:a5bd 20476420
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca4
FMPT 1012
GR> DOCUMENT TITLE: Christian Coalition's Radical Policy
GR> "ROAD TO VICTORY" --WARNING: HAZARD AHEAD A REPORT ON THE POLITICAL
GR> AND POLICY AGENDAS OF THE CHRISTIAN COALITION
GR> PREPARED JOINTLY BY THE INTERFAITH ALLIANCE FOUNDATION AND AMERICANS
GR> UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
GR> "We are seeing the Christian Coalition rise to where God intends it
to
GR> be in this nation, as one of the most powerful political forces that
GR> has ever been in the history of America."
GR> --PAT ROBERTSON, President The Christian Coalition
GR> Pat Robertson calls abortion "a slaughter. A million and a half
GR>babies. It rivals - it exceeds - the Holocaust of Adolph Hitler."
GR>(August 17, 1992, Larry King Live)
GR> STATUS REPORT: THE POLITICAL INFLUENCE OF THE CHRISTIAN COALITION
GR> It is difficult to gauge exactly how large and organized the
GR> Christian Coalition has become. Different sources will cite
GR> different statistics, but it is clear that it has grown into a
GR> formidable force in recent years, no longer discounted by anyone
GR> involved in public policy debate. [-------]
Robertson is a papal flunky. One of many.
'I am proud to call myself an ally of Pope John Paul, who stood up to this
administration in Cairo.'
[ Ralph Reed Jr., [exec. director of the Christian Coalition] From- National
Catholic Reporter 30 Sept. 1994 page 4-5
From- "700 Club" mailing "January 1996 Report" from CBN
PAT ROBERTSON MEETS JOHN PAUL II
After CBN founder Pat Robertson met with His Holiness, Pope John Paul II
Ñ during the Pontiff's October visit to the United States ÑRobertson described
their meeting as very warm. "I think this meeting was historic," said
Robertson, who joined with other Christian religious leaders in greeting
the Pope at the New York residence of His Eminence, John Cardinal O'Connor.
The meeting with the Pope came just hours after Robertson participated in
an Ecumenical Procession at the Papal Liturgy in New York's Central Park.
Robertson called the Pope, "a humble and caring servant of the Lord." At
the conclusion of his time with the Pope, Robertson presented a three-page
letter to the Pontiff underscoring CBN's commitment to work for Christian
unity and world evangelization. "I am hopeful this meeting will result
in a new openness and harmony between Evangelicals and Catholics in this
country and around the world."
In the letter, Robertson told the Pope: "While there are doctrinal differences
that separate us, I strongly believe the moral crisis facing society today
and the obvious social breakdown mandates a closer cooperation between people
of faith, including Evangelicals and Catholics. I stand with you in your
defense of human life and your condemnation of the "culture of death."
Robertson also wrote that he was "encouraged" by the Pope's recent encyclical
on Christian unity, 'That All May Be One,' and praised the Pontiff for
his recent call to Catholics to "be more committed to prayer for Christian
unity" in the Pope's 1994 Apostolic letter, 'As The Third Millennium Draws
Near.'
In Robertson's words: "I call on Evangelical Christians to lift up their
voices in prayer for unity and world evangelization." -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC4
|Date: 07 Feb 96 12:41:28
EID:67fc 20476520
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca5
FMPT 1012
GR> [--------------------]
GR> PAT BUCHANAN
GR> There is no one who agrees more with the Christian Coalition agenda
than
GR>Pat Buchanan, and he has become a willing tool of Robertson in his efforts
GR> to move the debate to the right. ........
Buchanan is not a "tool of Robertson," you dolt.
Robertson and Buchanan are both right wing tools of the papacy/Vatican.
Clinton and Ted Kennedy are examples of left wing tools of the papacy.
GR> ....... He will be given a prominent position
GR> among the speakers at this year's "Road to Victory" conference and
GR> the message to the other Presidential candidates will be heard
GR> loud and clear: fall in line or we will go with Pat.
PAT BUCHANAN, of course, is a hard core right wing Roman Catholic.
From- National Catholic Reporter 20 Oct.1995 page 7
THE CHRISTIAN COALITION has formally launched the 'Catholic Alliance' [NCR,
Sept. 22], designed to unite evangelical Christians and hundreds of thousands
of antiabortion, pro-family Catholics. Working with a start- up budget
of $1.3 million, Maureen Roselli, former New Jersey legislative assistant
and projects coordinator with National Right to Life, will lead the new
group. -END QUOTE-
From- Religion Watch [Vol.11, No.1 Nov.1995]
P.O. Box 652, North Bellmore, N.Y. 11710
FINDINGS & FOOTNOTES - A Bi-Monthly Supplement of Religion Watch November/December
1995 PRESSNOTES ON/FILE: A Continuing Survey of Groups, Events, Movements
and People Impacting Religion
1) The Catholic Alliance was formed by the Christian Coalition to draw
Catholics more fully into Christian right activism on issues such as fighting
abortion and promoting government-funded school vouchers. The group has
a panel of Catholic lay leaders, a staff in Washington, and a range of
activities geared to Catholic voters. The alliance is part of an attempt
by the Christian Coalition to boost its Catholic membership from about
250,000 to at least 1 million by the year 2000. [Source: Long Island Catholic,
September 13] -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC5
|Date: 07 Feb 96 12:45:26
EID:a73d 204765a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca6
FMPT 1012
GR> [---------]
GR> "When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen
GR>here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved
GR> in Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals --
GR> the two things seem to go together." (PAT ROBERTSON, THE 700 CLUB, 1992)
GR> ... You handle religion by first cutting it off, and then killing it.
You're just trying to cut the tail off the snake.
You should be going after the head,.... in ROME.
AP 22 Dec 94 17:17 EST V0628 The Associated Press.
VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Seeking to focus American aid efforts better, the
White House is close to reaching a pact with the Vatican to use church sources
to identify crucial relief needs in war and famine zones,
a U.S. diplomat said Thursday.
President Clinton's proposal for a "humanitarian diplomacy" strategy with
the Vatican could help mend relations after moving far apart on issues
such as birth control and abortion.
It also could win Clinton points with the new Republican-led Congress,
which appears ready to cut some foreign aid programs and closely examine
the needs for others.
Clinton's letter, delivered to the Vatican on Dec. 5, is being studied
by Pope John Paul II and has so far been viewed favorably by church officials,
said Raymond Flynn, U.S. ambassador to the Vatican.
The core of the plan is to use reports from clergymen and church-backed
aid groups to determine the types of medicine, food and other humanitarian
relief items needed. Flynn said the accord would not deal with contraceptives
and other services opposed by the Vatican.
But Flynn denied that the pact would force U.S. aid efforts to conform
to Vatican standards. He insisted it is only to better gauge relief needs
at a time of increasing close budget scrutiny.
"We're talking about a very powerful alliance," said Flynn. "It's the world's
only remaining superpower and the most important moral force in the world
working together on issues of social justice."
Flynn did not know when a formal response could come from the pope, who
often speaks out about the need for rich nations to help the needy. Vatican
officials have not commented on the letter.
"The church's ability to mobilize people and support from around the world
is unparalleled. ... I believe that by working together more closely and
better coordinating our responses to human crises we could significantly
alleviate the suffering," Clinton wrote in the letter, obtained by The
Associated Press.
Clinton suggested the White House and Vatican "share information ... on
a more systematic basis through our embassies." -END QUOTE-
Oh well,...
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC6
|Date: 07 Feb 96 12:47:02
EID:a67d 204765e0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca7
FMPT 1012
From- The Churchman's HUMAN QUEST
1074 - 23rd Avenue North
St.Petersburg, FL 33704
JANUARY-FEBRUARY 1996 page 5
LIVING UP TO THIS JOURNAL'S PAST PERFORMANCE
THE HISTORIC TITLE, THE CHURCHMAN, included in the official identity of
this journal, honors the decades of integrity it enjoyed under the guidance
of William Austin Smith [1918-1922] and Guy Emery Shipler [1922- 1968].
It has been "an antidote to falsehood" [George Seldes' words] and has courageously
countered misinformation and disinformation in religious reporting. Church
interference in political affairs in Roman Catholic countries like Spain
was exposed by Seldes and other courageous journalists [see page 4 of September
-October, 1995]. And for over a quarter of a century THE CHURCHMAN felt
dutibound lo expose church chicanery in this country. Contemporaries of
Dr. Shipler helped to make the role less lonely. Unitarian leader, Dr.
John Haynes Holmes was anti-war [page 19, November-December, 1995]; Dr.
Robert J. McCracken's Reformation sentiments sharpened the stilettos
aimed against world domination by any anti-pluralistic church.
Today, the religious right's fascistic pronouncements earn Vatican approval,
covered up by the ruse of "ecumenism," which the late Dr. C. Stanley Lowell,
first editor of 'Church and State' [still going strong] characterized as
"leading Protestantism to a dead end" in his devastating book, 'The Ecumenical
Mirage' [Baker]. The religious right aids the Vatican's appetite for world
domination. Kenneth Baker, S. J. summed it up: "We are seeing a political
alliance between Roman Catholic and conservative Protestants that could
have a profound impact in areas of abortion, family life, school policy,
and public morality......"
As Lowell put it: "to restore 'Christian unity' under the primacy of the
pope...... brings into the fold not individuals but entire Protestant bodies
in one or a series of gigantic sweeps."
An appropriately titled book, 'The Scandal of Silence,' by the late Edward
M. Keating, Roman Catholic layman and editor of the defunct 'Ramparts'
magazine, explains the reticent press: "There is within the Catholic Church
the tradition of lay silence. The greatest obstacle to free speech is
psychological, but breaking the silence is like breaking down an enormous
wall....."
When Paul Blanshard's book, 'American Freedom and Catholic Power,' was
published by Beacon Press in 1949, THE CHURCHMAN had carried article after
article, editorial after editorial, exposing Roman Catholic pressures
largely overlooked by the media. For example, an editorial in the September
15, 1947 issue of THE CHURCHMAN titled, "Who Controls
Truman?" began: "While Protestants in the United States outnumber Roman
Catholics two to one, it is increasingly evident that Protestants have
little influence on the Truman administration, in contrast to the influence
of the Vatican." It pointed to "a group of leading Baptists.... who condemned
the exchange of letters between the President and the pope, declaring
that the correspondence violates the cherished American doctrine of separating
church and state."' The editorial continued, "Two members of the group
asserted that the exchange of letters implies that the United States government
is 'an ally of clerical totalitarianism ....... It is a disservice to
the world's hope for Peace to identify American aims with those of Roman
clericalism."' It must be remembered that the Roman Catholic Church collaborated
with the Nazis and with Hitler in parts of Europe, including Croatia, Yugoslavia,
through Archbishop Stepinac.
Dr. Leo Pfeffer's book, 'Church, State and Freedom' [Beacon] quoted Truman:
"It is well known that the Vatican is vigorously engaged in the struggle
against communism. Direct diplomatic relations [referring to the U.S.
envoy at the Vatican, Myron Taylor] will assist in coordinating the effort
to combat the communist menace."
Dr. McCracken's outspoken sermons in Riverside Church were not reported
in the press when he referred to "the antidemocratic character of the Roman
system and its ceaseless, surreptitious pressure to obtain
a position of preference and control in the New World..... It has an astonishing
hold over the machinery of American life Ñ the press, the radio, the films,
the whole field of public relations.... Its clearly avowed purpose is to
make America Catholic."
The conspiracy of silence is explained by Blanshard [p. 214]: "Catholics
are taught that the Roman church is the supreme guardian and purveyor of
truth, and the pope has infallible judgment in moral matters and that 'union
of minds requires not only a perfect accord in the one faith, but complete
submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff,
as to God himself. The words are those of Leo XIII in his Chief Duties
of Christian Citizens."
How far astray has the silence of the media led our Jeffersonian freedoms?
How many lives were lost in the Vietnam war alone on what the late Senator
Morse of Oregon termed "Cardinal Spellman's War" ?
Therein lies another story who's legacy of deceit is tragedy.
Only through education, discussion, and a free press can Jefferson's essence
of enlightenment preserve our democracy. As U.S. Supreme Court Justice
Louis D. Brandeis said in one of his major opinions, "to avert the evil,
the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."
This is a time for more enlightenment and THE CHURCHMAN's role is to continue
in its exposure of religious [so-called] deception, deceit and other
chicanery. -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC7
|Date: 07 Feb 96 12:48:18
EID:66bc 20476600
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca8
FMPT 1012
Some of the Roman Catholic influence on Richard Nixon.
From- NIXON - The Education Of A Politician 1913-1962 By Stephen E.
Ambrose Pub.by Simon and Schuster 1987 ISBN 0-671-52836-X
pg 144-145 FRESHMAN CONGRESSMAN
ANOTHER ACQUAINTANCE Nixon made at that first meeting of the Labor Committee
was Charles Kersten, freshman Republican from Wisconsin. Kersten had been
investigating Communist influence in an Allis-Chalmers strike, and Nixon
asked him to recommend an authority on Communism. Kersten arranged for
Nixon to meet with Father John Cronin, a Maryknoll seminary teacher in
Baltimore. On at least four occasions in late January and early February
[1947], Nixon and Kersten drove to Baltimore for briefings from Cronin.
Father Cronin was no Red-baiter. He had devoted his life to social causes
and served as a CIO organizer in the early forties. But in his CIO experiences,
he had become disturbed by the attempted Communist take-overs. He began
collecting data on Communist involvement in the labor movement, in the
process exchanging information with William Sullivan, an FBI agent.
145 In 1944, Cronin had circulated a series of reports on his findings to
the Catholic bishops, who had been so impressed that they had asked Cronin
to devote an entire year to preparing a study of Communism in America.
He had completed it at the end of 1945 and had circulated one copy to each
bishop. On one of Nixon's visits to Baltimore, Cronin let him read a copy.
The report, entitled "The Problem of American Communism," concentrated
on Communist infiltration tactics in labor unions and in government.
Cronin cited material given him by Sullivan from the voluntary testimony
before the FBI of ex-Communist and current senior editor of 'Time' magazine
Whittaker Chambers. Chambers had named names. He said that John Abt,
Lee Pressman, and Alger Hiss formed a Communist cell within the government.
Cronin named Hiss four times in the report. The report stated that Chambers
vowed to expose Hiss if he were named Secretary-General of the United Nations,
an idea that was in the rumor mill, because Hiss had been the chief organizer
of the San Francisco Conference that set up the United Nations. What Cronin
did not know was that the Soviet Ambassador to the U.N., Andrei Gromyko,
had urged Secretary of State Edward Stettinius to name Alger Hiss as the
first U.N. Secretary-General.11
In his early meetings with Nixon, Cronin not only gave him some names to
think about but also a great deal of practical advice on how to deal with
the Communist Party [USA]. He explained Communist tactics, put Nixon
onto other ex-Communists who might be willing to talk, and in general gave
Nixon a crash course on the subject. He emphasized the presence of "certain
communists ..... in the State Department" and urged Nixon to go after
them. 12
JUST AS Nixon was learning from Cronin that Communism was a bigger problem
than simple infiltration of the CIO, he had the lesson reinforced by his
initial experience on HUAC. On February 6, HUAC held its first meeting
of the session under the chairmanship of J. Parnell Thomas, Republican
of New Jersey.
[---------------]
318
[---------------]
ON SEPTEMBER 29, 1953, AT St. Matthew's Cathedral in Washington,
Joe McCarthy married his secretary, Jean Kerr. The wedding was
a gala event, of course, but more interesting for what it revealed about
McCarthy's position in the world of politics. Pope Pius sent his "paternal
and apostolic" blessings to the couple. Numerous senators and representatives
were there, including John Kennedy [whose younger brother Robert was on
McCarthy's staff, and who had written the letter for McCarthy demanding
to know what Eisenhower intended to do about trade with Red China]. Allen
Dulles was present, as was Alice Roosevelt Longworth and other Washington
socialites. The President sent his congratulations, along with three of
his aides, including Persons and Adams. But the most prominent dignitaries
present were the Vice-President and his wife. McCarthy gave Nixon an
extravagant handshake and the biggest smile
as he walked down the aisle.44
[----------] -END QUOTE-
page 411- informs the reader that "Father Cronin" was the "principal
speech writer" for Nixon during his 1956 campaign. [therefore, at this
time, Nixon and Cronin had had a relationship lasting nine years] page 638
informs the reader that Nixon was still in touch with "Father Cronin" as
late as 1961. page 586 informs the reader of Cardinal Spellman's political
clout. [About which Cardinal Spellman's biography, "The American Pope"
elaborates]
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC8
|Date: 07 Feb 96 13:14:36
EID:62fc 204769c0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca9
FMPT 1012
From- 'THE CATHOLIC ANSWER' JAN.1988 begin quote-
D'Souza is senior domestic policy analyst at the White House. Previously
he was managing editor of 'Policy Review.' His articles on politics and
religion have appeared in 'The New York Times, Washington Post, Harper's,
and Vanity Fair.' He is author of "The Catholic Classics" ['Our Sunday
Visitor' $6.95], from which this article came. -END QUOTE-
FROM- 'GOVERNING AMERICA- An Insider's Report
from the White House and the Cabinet'
By Joseph A. Califano, Jr. Pub.by Simon and Schuster 1981 ISBN 0-671-25428-6
pages 15-16 - STARTING UP
As Carter questioned me, obviously briefed on my background, he struck
me as superficially self-effacing but intensely shrewd. [-----------]
Carter then turned to the problem of the family. He knew it was a perfect
campaign issue for him, and I could sense his contentment in pursuing both
good morality and good politics. He expressed his concern about the decline
of the American family with the same sincere conviction he exhibited in
discussing his concern about the CATHOLIC vote. He urged me, in preparing
the report on the family, to consult widely with CATHOLICs and look for
an appropriate forum for a campaign speech. Carter talked about the Great
Society programs of Lyndon Johnson and my work in those years, but much
of his immediate interest in me was prompted by the fact that I was a CATHOLIC.
It was the first time in my life I had been singled out (either for favor
or discrimination) for that reason, but I was so interested in the outside
possibility of the HEW post that I never thought twice about it at the time.
While Carter discussed the anti-family aspects of federal policy, abortion,
and the politics of the CATHOLIC vote, never once during that two-hour meeting
did he mention-the Democratic Party. As I thought about that on my drive
back to my summer home in Wellfleet on Cape Cod, I recalled the first time
I had met him, at one of Boston Mayor Kevin White's small political dinners
a couple of nights after the 1974 congressional elections. We were discussing
the meaning of the election. ''If anything, political party labels are
a burden these days. People don't care about political parties today," Governor
Jimmy Carter commented as we sat in the house on Beacon Hill. "Yes,
they do," White said, and brand-new congressman-elect from New Hampshire
Norman D'Amours agreed.
Carter turned to D'Amours. "Norman, when I got off the plane to campaign
for you in New Hampshire, you asked me never to mention the Democratic Party."
Carter made the point quietly, but with such force that D'Amours said nothing
for the rest of the evening.
After the election, Mondale told me he was urging Carter to name me to
a Cabinet post. preferably HEW. In mid-November, House Speaker Tip [Roman
Catholic] O'Neill told me that Carter was actively considering me for a
major post. "I spent the whole damn ride from Carter's house to the airport
this afternoon talking about you,'' he said when we bumped into each other
at Duke Zeibert's Washington restaurant. ''He kept asking me questions about
you. He mentioned two or three jobs. When he mentioned HEW, I told him
you'd be
a great Secretary of HEW, but I said, 'Mr. President, Joe isn't going to
take
a job like that. He's served his time with Lyndon Johnson. He makes a
fortune as a lawyer in Washington.' '' [------]
pg 49-52 CHAPTER II ABORTION
THE ABORTION issue marked my initiation by public controversy as Secretary
of Health, Education, and Welfare.
It was certainly not the issue I would have chosen to confront first. The
abortion dispute was sure to make enemies at the beginning of my tenure
when I particularly needed friends: guaranteed to divide supporters of social
programs when it was especially important to unite them; and likely to spark
latent and perhaps lasting suspicions about my ability to separate my private
beliefs as a Roman Catholic from my public duties as the nation's chief
health, education, and social service official. [-------------]
Jimmy Carter first talked to me about abortion when we lunched alone in
Manchester, New Hampshire, in early August 1976. He expressed his unyielding
opposition to abortion and his determination to stop federal funding of
abortions. He asked me to work with Fritz Mondale to make his views known
to the Catholic hierarchy and influential lay Catholics. Mondale was
using his Minnesota friend Bishop James Rausch, who was then the general
secretary of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, to get Carter's
view across, and Charlie Kirbo would be quietly communicating with Terence
Cardinal Cooke in New York, but Carter said he wanted a "good Catholic"
to spread the word of his strong opposition to abortion. I was impressed
by the sincerity and depth of Carter's views on abortion and I found his
determination to get credit for those views politically prudent in view
of the inevitable opposition his position would incite. It later struck
me that Carter never asked my views on the subject and I never expressed
them. Our conversation simply assumed complete agreement.
The assumption was well grounded. I consider abortion morally wrong unless
the life of the mother would be at stake if the fetus were carried to term.
Under such tragic and wrenching circumstances, no human being could be faulted
for making either choice, between the life of the mother and the life of
the unborn child. Those are the only circumstances under which I considered
federal financing of abortion appropriate.
During the 1976 presidential campaign, I never had to reconcile my beliefs
as a Catholic about abortion with any potential duty to obey and execute
the law as a public servant. In promulgating Carters view, like any proponent
of a presidential candidate, I took as a given his ability to translate
that view into law or public policy. Since my conversations were with
those who opposed abortion, no one asked me what Carter would do if the
Congress enacted a different position into law.
In talks with Monsignors George Higgins and Francis Lally, and others at
the Catholic Conference, I sought to convince them that Carter shared their
view. Higgins was an old friend from the Johnson years and he helped get
Carter's position better known in the Catholic community. But Higgins confided
that nothing short of a firm commitment to a constitutional amendment outlawing
abortion would satisfy the conservative elements of the Catholic hierarchy.
When I reported this to Mondale, he expressed doubt that Carter would Ñ
or should Ñ go that far, particularly since in January 1976 he had said
he did "not favor a constitutional amendment abolishing abortion." I agreed.
Eventually, in response to the numerous questions on abortion during the
campaign and after a meeting with Catholic bishops in Washington on August
31, 1976, Carter said that he had not yet seen any constitutional amendment
he would support, but he "would never try to block ...... an amendment"
prohibiting abortions. He added pointedly that any citizen had the right
to seek an amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's 1973 'Roe v. Wade'
decision, which established a woman's constitutional right to have an abortion,
at least in the first trimester of pregnancy.
In November 1976, after the election, as Mondale, Tip O'Neill, and other
friends reported conversations in which Carter or his close advisors such
as Jordan and Kirbo were checking on my qualifications, it became clear
that I was a leading candidate for the HEW post. Then, for the first time,
I had to focus on the depth of my personal religious belief about abortion:
As Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, would I be able, in good
conscience, to carry out the law of the land, even if that law provided
for federal funding of all abortions? I asked myself that question many
times before others began asking it of me.
Both my parents are devoutly religious Catholics. Their influence and my
education at St. Gregory's elementary school in Brooklyn, at the Jesuit
high school Brooklyn Prep, and at the College of the Holy Cross had provided
me not only with some intellectual sextants but with a moral compass as
well. Like many Catholic students and young lawyers in the 1950s, I had
read the works of John Courtney Murray, a leading Jesuit scholar and philosopher.
His writings on the rights and duties of American Catholics in a pluralistic
society and the need to accommodate private belief and public policy were
guides for liberal Catholics of my generation. But even with this background,
it was an exacting task in modern America to get clarity and peace in my
private conscience while satisfying the legitimate demands of public service
and leadership.
The abortion issue never came up in the Johnson administration. But family
planning, even the aggressive promotion of the use of contraceptives to
prevent pregnancy as a government policy, was an issue I had confrontEd
in those years. President Johnson was an ardent proponent of birth control
at home and abroad. He repeatedly rejected the unanimous pleas of his advisors
from Secretary of State Dean Rusk to National Security Advisor Walt Rostow
to ship wheat to the starving Indians during their 1966 famine. He demanded
that the Indian government first agree to mount a massive birth control
program. The Indians finally moved and Johnson released the wheat over
a sufficiently extended period to make certain the birth control program
was off the ground.
Johnson spoke so often and forcefully about birth control that the Catholic
bishops denounced him publicly. He sent me to try to cool them off. Working
discreetly with Monsignor Frank Hurley, then the chief lobbyist for the
Catholic Conference in Washington, we reached an uneasy off-the-record
truce: If LBJ would stop using the term "birth control" and refer instead
to the "population problem," which allowed increased food production as
a possible solution, the bishops would refrain from public attacks on him.
Johnson agreed, and spoke thereafter of the population problem" Ñ but with
equal if not greater vigor. [-----------] -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC9
|Date: 07 Feb 96 13:26:30
EID:a23d 20476b40
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137caa
FMPT 1012
FROM- 'GOVERNING AMERICA- An Insider's Report
from the White House and the Cabinet'
By Joseph A. Califano, Jr.
Pub.by Simon and Schuster 1981
ISBN 0-671-25428-6 pages 221-222 CIVIL RIGHTS
[-------------]
I remember the day Gardner notified the city of Chicago. President Johnson
was in New York to welcome Pope Paul VI to the United States and the United
Nations, and he had taken Catholics on the White House staff with him.
The evening before the Pope's arrival, U.N. Ambassador Arthur Goldberg
hosted
a party for the President and Francis Cardinal Spellman, the powerful Catholic
archbishop of New York. We had thought and debated about the protocol
and politics of how Johnson should handle the Pontiff's visit. The President
himself had spent hours discussing the setting for the unprecedented meeting.
The chancery behind St. Patrick's Cathedral on Madison Avenue? No, an American
President should not go to Catholic territory, especially when the constitutionality
of some of the Great Society elementary and secondary education programs
was being challenged as violating the First Amendment separation of church
and state. The United Nations? No, this was an American President welcoming
the Pope to the United States, and too many East European, Irish, and Italian
Catholics did not like the United Nations. We finally settled for the neutral
ground of the Waldorf-Astoria. There, on October 4, 1965, Lyndon Johnson
became the first American President to sit down in the United States with
a Roman Catholic Pope. Earlier that day, Johnson had heard that HEW Secretary
Gardner had announced his intention to cut off federal funds to Chicago's
school system. Mayor Richard Daley, also in New Yolk to meet the Pope,
had already called Johnson to express his angry astonishment. Johnson was
extremely agitated and instructed me to have Gardner and Attorney General
Katzenbach in his Oval Office on our return to Washington late that afternoon.
We were going to the suite to meet the Pope, and Johnson was still talking
about Chicago as we got off the elevator.
The meeting with Pope Paul VI began with great dignity and formality.
First, he and Johnson shook hands and then Johnson introduced those of us
who had accompanied him. Jack Valenti, the President's secretary, Marie
Fehmer, and I, and other Catholic staff members filed by, knelt, and kissed
the Pope's ring. Then the room cleared, with only a few of us remaining.
Johnson and the Pope sat side by side. The Pope told the President how much
he respected his extraordinary work in educating children, particularly
poor children. The President beamed as the Pope elaborated.
Then Johnson's face flushed slightly; he turned to the Pope, his enormous
hands reaching out, one stopping just short of landing on the Pontiff's
knee. "That's the work I want to do, your Holiness, educate poor children.
But they're trying to stop me. One of my own Cabinet members wants to stop
funds for poor children in one of our largest cities, run by a fine Catholic
mayor. But we'll help these children."
It was vintage Johnson. The Pope was politely puzzled during the translation.
I could hardly keep from laughing; I'm sure I smiled.
When we got back to the White House, Johnson made it clear to Gardner that
he would not cut off funds to Chicago without giving Daley every chance
to present his case and, if necessary, desegregate the schools voluntarily.
[-----] -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
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SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC10
|Date: 07 Feb 96 13:53:48
EID:0564 20476ea0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137cab
FMPT 1012
"The assumption of many bishops that I could impose my views on the law
passed by Congress reflected a misunderstanding of my constitutional role
at that stage of the democratic process."
FROM- 'GOVERNING AMERICA- An Insider's Report
from the White House and the Cabinet'
By Joseph A. Califano, Jr.
Pub.by Simon and Schuster 1981
ISBN 0-671-25428-6 page 67 ABORTION
[--------]
Whatever distance the President wanted from me on other policies, like school
integration, the anti-smoking campaign. or Social Security cuts, he held
me at his side whenever he spoke of abortion: during a March 1977 Clinton,
Massachusetts, town meeting and on a Los Angeles television show in May
1977 ("Joe Califano, who is Secretary of HEW, feels the same way I do against
abortions"); in Yazoo City, Mississippi, in July 1977 (".... the Secretary
of HEW agrees with me completely on this issue ..."); at a Bangor, Maine,
town meeting in February 1978 (''Joe Califano, who is head of HEW, is a
very devout Catholic ..... I happen to be a Baptist, and his views on abortion
are the same as mine''); with college and regional editors and at general
press conferences. [-----------]
page 70-71 ABORTION [-------------]
The only person who told me she agreed with the comment of the President
was Eunice Kennedy Shriver, who wrote me on July 15: "In terms of the
equity argument, I think the President's answer is satisfactory.'' It was
one of the few times I can recall disagreeing with the political judgment
of this extraordinary woman. She had become and remained a dedicated and
politically persistent participant in the abortion controversy, an energetic
opponent of federal funding.
In July, unknown to the public, to most of the antagonists prowling the
halls of Congress with roses and hangers and, indeed, to most congressmen
and senators, a secret compromise remarkably close to the agreement the
House and Senate would reach in December was beginning to take shape in
the mind of Eunice Kennedy Shriver. She called me, as she was undoubtedly
calling others, in the middle of the month, three weeks after the Supreme
Court tossed the issue back to the Congress. She had ''some language that
might be acceptable to both the House and Senate" and end the widespread
access to abortion. "We've got to face the rape and incest argument, don't
you think?" And, spraying words in her staccato Massachusetts accent, she
added: "We also have to deal with serious damage to the mother Ñ physical
damage, not this fuzzy psychological stuff."
Eunice read me some language and concluded, "I'm sending this over to
you, personally and confidentially, and you can use it as your own."
Just as I was about to hang up, she added, ''And Joseph, when we get over
this, we need a teen-age pregnancy bill. I'm getting Teddy to introduce
it and I want the two of you to work together on it.'' Eunice was working
on
a bill to fund centers tohelp teen-agers who were pregnant (she was so well
connected within HEW that I got her revision of my draft testimony in support
of the bill before I even received the draft from the departmental staff).
Impressed by a Johns Hopkins program that helped teen-agers deal with their
babies and avoid having more, she wanted to duplicate it around the nation.
But even there she stood firmly on abortion. When the teen-age pregnancy
bill was being considered in 1978 and HEW Deputy Assistant Secretary Peter
Schuck was quoted as saying states might give funds to clinics providing
abortions if they were providing services to pregnant teen-agers, Eunice
sent me a strong letter: "I certainly have not worked on this bill for
three years under the assumption that abortion services would be provided
under the bill ..... I will not continue, quite frankly, if abortion services
are permitted under this legislation.'' Due in large measure to her lobbying
on the bill, when the bill was eventually enacted, no abortion services
were funded under it. [-----------] 87 - ABORTION [-----------]
IN PERSONAL terms, I was struck by how infinitely more complex it was to
confront the abortion issue in the broader sphere of politics and public
policy in our pluralistic society than it had been to face it only as a
matter of private conscience. I found no automatic answers in Christian
theology and the teachings of my church to the vexing questions of public
policy it raised, even though I felt secure in my personal philosophical
grounding.
I was offended by the constant references to me as "Secretary Califano,
a Roman Catholic" in the secular press when it wrote about the abortion
issue. No such reference appeared next to my name in the stories reporting
my opposition to tuition tax credits favored by the Catholic Church or
my disputes with the Catholic hierarchy on that issue.
I was dismayed by the number of Catholics and diocesan papers that attacked
me for the regulations I issued on abortion. Their attack so concerned
Notre Dame president Father Theodore Hesburgh that he urged me to speak
about the conscience and duty of a Catholic as a public official at the
commencement in South Bend in 1979.
The assumption of many bishops that I could impose my views on the law
passed by Congress reflected a misunderstanding of my constitutional role
at that stage of the democratic process. As it turned out, like the President's,
their assumption that the sixty-day reporting period for rape or incest
constituted a legal loophole was as ill-founded in fact as it was in law.
[--------------] -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CC11
|Date: 07 Feb 96 14:24:16
EID:c5a5 20477300
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137cac
FMPT 1012
FROM- 'GOVERNING AMERICA- An Insider's Report
from the White House and the Cabinet'
By Joseph A. Califano, Jr. Pub.by Simon and Schuster 1981 ISBN 0-671-25428-6
303-308 EDUCATION
[---------------]
Concern about separation of church and state also drove many on those committees
to oppose the tuition tax credit proposals for lower schools.
[----------]
The same day that the President unfolded the administration's Middle Income
Student Assistance bill, I asked Attorney General Griffin Bell for his formal
opinion on the constitutionality of tax credits for parochial elementary
and secondary schools. On March 17, Bell responded to my request and a
similar one from Missouri Democratic Senator Thomas Eagleton.
The Attorney General concluded that "tax programs of the sort contemplated
here would be held unconstitutional insofar as they would provide aid at
the elementary and secondary school levels. However .... similar aid
at the college level would he constitutional ....." Bell concluded that
the tax credit, dollar for dollar up to a certain amount, was in affect
a federal payment to a parochial school for whatever purpose the school
decided to use it, and so was unconstitutional.
He cited 1973 Supreme Court decisions in 'Committee For Public Education
v. Nyquist' and 'Sloan v. Lemon' holding similar New York and Pennsylvania
tuition tax credit schemes for elementary and secondary schools unconstitutional.
The Catholic bishops attacked the President's and my failure to support
the Packwood-Moynihan tax credit. Virgil Blum, the president of the Independent
Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, an organization allied with
the U. S. Catholic Conference, condemned the administration's proposal
as a ''renunciation of the President s campaign promises to aid pupils
who attend parochial schools." Actually, Carter had limited his commitment
to ''finding
a constitutionally acceptable method of providing aid to parents of children
attending parochial schools." Among Catholic organizations, only the Association
of Jesuit Colleges and Universities supported our proposal. Some sophisticated
Catholic lobbyists were wary of the tuition tax credit for parochial schools
because they feared it would lead to a general reassessment of tax policies
affecting religious institutions.
But the Catholic bishops, hard-pressed to finance huge parochial school
systems in big cities, pressed their case aggressively. When I argued
that Catholic schools would never see any money from a tax credit at elementary
and secondary schools because litigation would tie up the funds for years,
the bill was changed to mandate an immediate constitutional test in the
courts.
While Carter and I refused to hold out false hopes of unconstitutional
relief for parochial schools as Nixon had cynically done, we did work to
help such schools in every constitutional way. For the first time, I used
HEW's authority to bypass state and local school districts that did not
provide a fair share of federal funds to parochial elementary and secondary
schools for compensatory education, books, equipment, and other materials
and services. We invoked the law to provide funds to parochial schools
in Missouri, Virginia, and Wisconsin and proposed legislative expansion
of this authority. I urged Catholic schools to monitor the performance
of the states carefully. I established HEW's first Office of Nonpublic
Schools, appointing as director Edward D'Alessio, president of Our Lady
of the Elm College in Chicopee, Massachusetts, and former head of the elementary
and secondary education division for the U.S.Catholic Conference.
[----------]
On February 23, the Senate Finance Committee approved, 14 to 1,
a bill providing tuition tax credits for elementary, secondary, and post-secondary
students. I called the Finance Committee's action "a devastating blow
to public school education in this country that would skew federal benefits
toward parochial schools."
[-----------------]
During the Easter recess, the Catholic Bishops mounted a massive lobbying
campaign. When the Congress returned on April 3, House Ways and Means
Committee Chairman Al Ullman said his committee would act on
a tuition tax credit proposal by Cleveland Democrat Charles Vanik.
[---------------]
After a series of sharply contested and close votes, the Ways and Means
Committee approved Vanik's proposal for a tuition tax credit up to $250
per student for post-secondary education. But an unusual combination of
Southern congressmen opposed to aid for parochial schools and civil rights
advocates concerned that tax credits would provide financial assistance
for segregated schools, defeated the credit for elementary and secondary
schools by a 20 to 16 vote.
The formation of this coalition, and particularly the opposition of the
civil rights groups, angered Catholic lobbyists. On April 15, the Catholic
Conference accused me of inciting civil rights opposition and distorting
the amount of money the federal government spent to aid pupils in nonpublic
elementary and secondary schools. [----------]
The House then passed, 237 to 158, a tuition tax credit bill that applied
to private elementary and secondary school students, as well as all college
students. I called the House vote to provide a credit for parochial schools
"a hollow gesture" that would "only delay the search for constitutional
means of assistance to parochial education ...... the parochial schools
of this country will never see a dollar of the unconstitutional aid the
House voted today because the courts will invalidate it."
[-------------]
Over the recess, I got a sense of how deeply this issue cut with many Americans.
While we were fishing together on Cape Cod, Leo Diehl, Speaker O'Neill's
closest aide, told me that the mail and pressure on House members to support
a tuition tax credit for elementary and secondary schools was greater than
on any issue since Watergate. On the third Sunday in August,
I sat in our Lady of Lourdes Church on Main Street in Wellfleet, Massachusetts,
where my summer home is located. During his sermon, the pastor spoke with
hearty approval of the tuition tax credit and asked "all parishioners"
Ñ then he noticed me and amended his request to "all parishioners who wish
to do so" Ñ to sign petitions to President Carter, available at the back
of the church, for a tuition tax credit bill for elementary and secondary
schools. As virtually every parishioner signed the petitions, they talked
about how the government discriminated against parochial schools.
[-----------]
Carter had his legislative victory without the need to veto the tuition
tax credit, even for higher education. He signed the Middle Income Student
Assistance Act into law on November 1, 1978. But the scars were not easily
healed.
On November 11, the President met with leaders of the National Conference
of Catholic Bishops, who told him of their "growing dissatisfaction" with
the administration's failure to support tuition tax credits for parents
of parochial school children. On December 6, at my invitation, representatives
of the Catholic bishops, colleges, and elementary and secondary schools
came to HEW to discuss the issue. The group was made up predominantly of
clergy with a few laymen.
The atmosphere was icy as I began the meeting in the Secretary's conference
room. I asked what we could do to help them in the area of education. Some
scoffed at the question. Then the meeting broke into sharp denunciations
of Carter, punctuated with words like "broken promises'' and ''betrayal.''
When I mentioned that Senator Edward Kennedy and Carter were on the same
side of this issue, there was a chorus of adverse comment, with one priest
noting sarcastically, ''I'd hardly call Kennedy a Catholic legislator with
his stand on abortion and his opposition to tuition tax credits.'' Eventually
we agreed to try to seek areas of common interest. But they were so worried
about the financial plight of big-city parochial schools, they could not
see the threat to public education and to the constitutional separation
of church and state posed by the tuition tax credit. I was disappointed
that they so vigorously disagreed with me, but I could understand their
concern. -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: CATHOLIC RIGHT
|Date: 07 Feb 96 14:40:34
EID:b663 20477500
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137cad
FMPT 1012
From- National Catholic Reporter 8 Dec., 1995 page 14
NATION CATHOLIC RIGHT HEARS PLEAS FOR TOLERANCE
By TOM ROBERTS NCR Staff
WASHINGTONÑA two-day conference here of the Catholic Campaign for America
was traveling a predictable track Ñ speeches opposing abortion and supporting
a largely conservative Republican agenda Ñ when it took some intriguing
turns.
First, conservative scholar Michael Novak, in stark contrast to the tone
of many of the speeches, issued to the 700 in attendance a strong plea for
tolerance among the Catholic family.
He was followed by William J. Bennett, an official with the Bush and Reagan
administrations and a member of the campaign's board of directors. Bennett
urged abortion foes to move away from absolute positions to a more measured
approach that would take into account the degree of change society will
tolerate at a given moment.
The fight against abortion is at the center of the ambitious agenda of
the conservative Catholic Campaign for America, formed three years ago
to increase the influence of Catholics on public policy. The organization,
advocating a new "public Catholicism," has only about a half dozen chapters
in cities along the East Coast. But its directors and leaders, including
notable players in the worlds of politics and business, are among the elite
of U.S. conservative Catholicism.
The conference, billed as the group's first national convention, also was
a showcase for the growing political ties between conservative Catholics
and Protestant evangelicals. Ralph Reed, head of the Christian Coalition,
was one of the main speakers.
Novak, a noted conservative author and winner of the Templeton Award for
Progress in Religion, approached the topic of civility by asking the crowd
to give special consideration to long-time labor leader and social activist
William Doherty, "a man I very greatly admire."
Doherty, who began his career as a local union leader and now heads the
American Institute for Free Labor Development, clearly came from a different
perspective. Where others here chided the U.S. Catholic bishops for their
statements condemning planned federal budget cuts and declaring their solidarity
with the poor and marginalized, Doherty praised them.
In his workshop, he declared himself "a magisterial Catholic" who "buys
it all": the whole range of Catholic teaching, including those on abortion
and birth control. He scolded his audience for being "cafeteria Catholics"
Ñ a term usually applied to liberals in the church Ñ and for concentrating
on abortion while ignoring other elements of Catholic social teaching.
Said Novak, "Bill and I don't always agree in our analysis of what's going
on in society." But, he said, he has a high regard for Doherty and his
decades of Catholic activism.
One of the tasks of public Catholicism, Novak said, is to engage in social
discourse "in which people are civil to one another" and in which people
of faith "assume that each one is reasonable, assume that each one may
have a part of the truth even when we dramatically disagree."
He argued that Catholic social thought "is not an ideology. You don't
have to sign up on a dotted line. It is not part of a political party."
He urged Catholics to have "a fundamental respect for one another not only
at the communion rail but in our conversations " He drew on the analogy
of Thanksgiving dinner, when "you are bound to sit down with family memhers
whose views on gender drive you up a wall, whose views on economics sound
to you like fingernails across a blackboard.... It's all you can do to
stay at the table and sometimes you can't do that."
Such an expression of love, he said, "is what families are for. They're
not for sentimental love. They're for love that binds us to people
who are sometimes hard to love.... We ought to be realistic about family
and realistic about what it is to have a Catholic community. It isn't all
lovey-dovey, it isn't all sentiment. But it must be, in the end, civil.
We must be able to talk out things with one another."
Reed, whose Christian Coalition is the political arm of evangelical broadcaster
Pat Robertson, was in no mood for civil discourse over differing points
of view.
The political disputes of the day, Reed said, involve "a disagreement
about fundamental values that boils down to this: One is a group of people
who believes that we ought to maintain the government and the policies that
we have pursued for most of the last half centuly, policies that are socially
permissive.... On the other side, is a group of people who believe that
if there is a problem that ails America it is ultimately not a fiscal problem
or a monetary problem or a deficit problem, it is a moral problem."
Reed's coalition has recently launched a new division Ñ the Catholic Alliance
Ñand is aggressively recruiting Catholic members. "There is more that
unites us than separates us. The Catholic vote holds the key to the future
of America," he told the crowd, predicting that no candidate would be elected
and no law passed with out the approval of Catholics and evangelicals if
those two groups were a united voting bloc. Though he claims nonpartisanship
in his literature, Reed emphasized that, according to 1994 exit polls,
"for the first time in history" a majority of Roman Catholics voted Republican
in an off year election.
Catholic Campaign executive director Michael Ferguson, in his opening remarks,
called repeatedly on statements of Pope John Paul II to draw
a broad portrait of "public Catholicism" that included compassion for the
poor and immigrants.
But the scope was immediately narrowed by the first of eight general session
speakers: U.S. Rep. Henry Hyde, R Ill., the premier congressional opponent
of abortion. Hyde read from the recently released Statement on Political
Responsibilities by the nalion's Catholic bishops. In that statement, the
bishops declared that they stood "with the unborn and the undocumented
while many politicians seem to be abandoning them. We defend children in
the womb and on welfare. We oppose the violence of abortion and the vengeance
of capital punishment." "I do regret," Hyde said to sustained applause,
"the suggestion of moral equivalence contained in the form of the United
States Catholic Conference statement." He said the pope during his U.S.
visit did not suggest that abortion, "which takes one and a half million
innocent lives every year is one issue among many. No, he argued quite
rightly: This is the great moral challenge in America today."
"There are other challenges to be sure, but the issue of the right to life
of the unhorn cuts to the heart of the American experiment like no other
issue. I'm afraid this is more than a mere stylistic difference of opinion.
It's an affirmation of the seamless garment metaphor that is based on,
in my opinion, an unwarranted moral equivalence."
Twelve years ago, Cardinal Joseph Ilernardin of Chicago fashiulled the
seamless garment approach in which all life issues and Catholic social
concerns are inextricably joined. Hyde's comments were modified a bit
by Bennett, who argued that while not abandoning principle in thc fight
against abortion, "I do believe that reasonable people of goodwill can and
do disagree on the means to that end."
"Some would push for various forms of criminalization, for example. Some
would not," he said. "Some believe a constitutionnl amendment outlawing
abortion is the surest and best way to get there, others, in good faith,
doubt this. Differences aside, it seems to me that we ought to bring
to the cause all those - all those - who look at the figure of one and
a half million abortions a year with horror and misgiving. They should
all be our allies."
Bennett said he believes "there is a pro-life agenda that is both incremental
and principled. ..... Our nation as it is today will sustain ending late-term
abortions and sex-selection aboltions. It will sustain promoting informed
consent and it will sustain requiring parental notification. ..... That
is where we ought to concentrate our legal efforts."
-END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Godless Nation
|Date: 07 Feb 96 14:42:48
EID:4bcc 20477540
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137cae
FMPT 1012
FYI-
From- National Catholic Reporter 8 Dec., 1995 page 28 By- Fr. Richard
P. McBrien [teaches theology at Notre Dame]
HATS OFF TO BISHOPS FOR STRAIGHT TALK TO CONGRESS
The Catholic bishops of the United States have probably endured more than
their fair share of criticism from both left and right.
From the left, they have been accused of fiddling while Rome burns: of
worrying about hidden heresies within new translations of liturgical texts,
of being insensitive to the concerns of women in the church, of manifesting
an almost childlike dependence on the approval of the pope and the Roman
curia for every thing they say and do.
From the right, the bishops have been accused of aiding and abetting the
arsonists: of washing the faith down the drain in a sea of rejected "thees"
and "thous," of caving in to assorted feminist pressures, of swallowing
whole the liberal politics of staffers at the U.S. Catholic Conference,
the social policy arm of the national bishops' organization.
Unquestionably, the membership of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops
has undergone significant change over the past 15 years. Many have noted
that bishops have been promoted and appointed more on the basis of pastoral
conservatism than of pastoral aptitude.
In spite of all that, the conference's center of gravity has somehow remained
near the center of the spectrum, when, by outward signs, it should have
moved by now irretrievably to the right.
But the most recent national meeting of the bishops in Washington challenged
the conventional wisdom about episcopal conservatism.
The key moment occurred on the first day when Cardinal Roger Mahony of
Los Angeles, chairman of the bishops' Committee on Pro-Life Activities,
moved to amend the agenda in order to address "the current unprecedented
dismantling by Congress of essential health care, educational and social
service programs."
Instead of floundering yet one more time in prolonged and heated debate
about English translations of liturgical texts, which they swiftly approved,
they rose to Mahony's challenge.
In a letter to every member of the House and Senate, the bishops called
for the defeat or veto of the pending welfare legislation, which they called
"fatally flawed." They objected particularly to provisions mandating
family caps in welfare payments, the reduction of the earned income tax
credit by $32 billion, measures making legal immigrants ineligible for
some public benefits, and the shifting of federal programs aimed at protecting
children from abuse and neglect, by way of block grants to the states.
These provisions, along side cuts in the food stamp program and Medicaid,
they said, "will be devastating to poor and working families."
The bishops were especially sharp in exposing a fundamental inconsistency
in the congressional majority's logic. Conservative legislators argue,
on the one hand, that young women will decide against having any more children
if the welfare assistance is withdrawn. But then they claim that the denial
of welfare assistance will have no effect at all on an already pregnant
woman's decision to have an abortion.
In his presidential address to the bishops' conference, Cardinal William
Keeler of Baltimore contrasted the values embodied in Congress' budget
proposals with those enunciated a month earlier by Pope John Paul II during
his visit to thc United States. The pope had called upon the nation
"to stand up for human life and human dignity, to defend the unborn, protect
the poor, care for the weak and welcome thc immigrant "
"Six weeks later," Keeler declared, "our government is considering measures
that will hurt the very people our Holy Father called us to defend."
While endorsing the goals of reform ing the welfare system and eliminating
deficits, the cardinal argued that "the weakest members of our society
should not bear the greatest burdens."
The bishops also released a statement in observance of the 10th anniversary
of their 1986 pastoral letter on the U.S. economy, in which they pointed
out that "the power and productivity of the U.S. economy sometimes seems
to be leading to three nations living side by side" the prosperous, the
"squeezed" and perpetually insecure, and the desperately poor.
Political conservatives like to point out that after 60 years the welfare
system has proved a failure. It hasn't eliminated poverty. Therefore,
the system should be scrapped.
The bishops, in their turn, are pointing out, at least implicitly, that
after more than 200 years perhaps the capitalist system itself hasn't worked.
The lever of productivity hasn't lifted all boats. Wealth hasn't trickled
down to any great degree from the rich to the middle class and it has failed
to reach the poor entirely.
We are left instead with three nations, only one of which is completely
secure. Does that mean the capitalist system, too, should be scrapped?
By the time this column appears, our tiny Catholic band of richly funded,
neo conservative writers may have "explained" why the bishops got it all
wrong.
Hats off anyway to Mahony for acting like a leader when it counted. -END
QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
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SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Godless Nation/1
|Date: 07 Feb 96 14:46:12
EID:d3c8 204775c0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137caf
FMPT 1012
FYI-
From- National Catholic Reporter 1 Dec.95 page 3
BISHOPS TO CONGRESS: REJECT WELFARE CUTS
Meeting awash in economic in economic issues
By ARTHUR JONES NCR staff
WASHINGTONÑThe U.S. bishops, meeting here Nov. 13-15, inserted themselves
into the U.S. political maelstrom of welfare reform, tax and budget debates
with
a self-described "unusually blunt letter" to Congress and a tough public
statement from their outgoing president, Baltimore Cardinal William Keeler,
solidly allying the Catholic church with the poor.
Do such statemenls make any difference?
At the lunchtime break and after a quick conference with fellow Alaskan
bishops, Anchorage Archbishop Francis Hurley nipped up the marble stairs
at the Omni Shoreham Hotel and sent two faxes. One was the Keeler statement;
the other was a covering statement from Alaska's bishops.
Within a couple of hours, all Alaska's media would have them. "So will
it make any difference?" asked Hurley, a former conference general secretary,
rhetorically. "In terms of the national scene, some, not much." he answered.
"I see it perhaps having some influence when the politicians start trading
off, using our statements as a little bit of sensitivity Ñ as another basis
to look at these issues rather than just numbers.
"It's not going to be the swing vote for anything, but a lot of people will
be glad we said something," concluded Hur ley.
'We're not a congress. We're not experts in economics. In this area," said
Orange, Calif., Bishop Norman F. McFarland "we're more like the headlights
on a car. We're not driving the automobile. We're telling [the country]
the road you're on heads for disaster if you keep going."
This was a bishops' meeting awash in economic issues Ñ generated by their
statements, by the pope's recent visit and a call to conscience on behalf
of the needy.
Two anniversaries also stirred discussions:
- The 10th anniversar y of the bishops' economic pastoral letter, "Economic
Justice for All," and
- The 25th anniversary of the Campaign for Human Development, the social
action arm of the bishops' involvement with the poor.
In this light, the bishops sent a letter to Congress urging mem bers to
reject welfare reform provisions and the earned income tax credit cuts in
the reconciliation bill. "We cannot support measures that leave children
worse off," wrote the bishops, accusing Congress of adopting "simplistic
but dangerous" policies where the poor are concerned.
Economic issues appear close to home everywhere.
Fall River, Mass., Bishop Sean O'Malley told NCR that with the fishing and
textile industries suffering, and with the governor, William Weld, "cutting
back on welfare and fingerprinting welfare recipients, we've made statements
not
always welcome. Particularly my statements on the new immigration proposals
and welfare reform Ñ I got some hate mail."
Biloxi, Miss., Bishop Joseph Howze said he had just devoted his newspaper
column to the Gulf Coast's dilemma: gambling. "It's our new industry," he
said, "growing very fast. It's brought employment to the area, improved
appearance with beautiful new hotels.
"But when I consider the danger, the downside Ñ people gambling who shouldn't
be, some crime coming in, prostitution Ñ balancing out the economic gain
is the problem."
With Congress determined to "block grant" programs to state governments,
it seems local Catholic bishops and state Catholic conferences will be drawn
ever deeper into the economic debate.
"Through the Kentucky Catholic Conference, our Catholic positions are already
well-known," Louisville, Ky., Archbishop Tom Kelly told NCR. "We're well-organized
and we all sustain each other," he said. "But the rural poor in eastern
Kentucky and some in my diocese are being squeezed, squeezed, squeezed all
the time. What we'll do with these statements now is use them locally,"
said Kelly, a former conferenre official.
Austin, Texas, Bishop John McCarthy said that economically central Texas
is doing well Ñ "but we're just as concerned long-term with the leadership
of the [U.S. House and Senate] trying to balance the budget Ñ itself a commendable
goal Ñ off the poor. They're not talking about cutting the cotton subsidy,
the tobacco subsidy or subsidies to the high-tech industries through research
transferred from the military to private industry."
The Texas panhandle is feeling the pinch.
"People are deeply worried about mergers, buyouts and the unsettling effect
of big business taking over an entire way of life Ñ the farms," said Amarillo
Bishop Leroy Matthiesen. Three of his brothers are farmers, he said.
"They've never had more labor-saving devices and they've never been more
frustrated than now," he said.
In the "Economic Justice for All" anniversary statement, Baltimore Auxiliary
Bishop John Ricard wrote that the poor are "the missing dimension of the
national economic debate, and have the weakest voices. Today we can become
their voices."
Last week, in a politically heightened clirnate, that's precisely what
the U.S. Catholic bishops did.
Picture caption- Bishops pray before a session of the fall meeting of the
National Conference of Catholic Bishops. -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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|From: John Prewett
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Godless Nation
|Date: 07 Feb 96 14:49:40
EID:4bcc 20477620
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137cb0
FMPT 1012
FYI-
From- National Catholic Reporter 1 Dec.95 page 1
BISHOPS, ALLIES DON DIVERSE SEAMLESS GARMENTS
The U.S. bishops' meeting in Washington Nov 15-18 was barely a half-hour
old before it became obvious that politics and the poor would be a central
topic.
Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony stood up to propose that conference president
Cardinal William Keeler issue a brief statement "in response to the current
unprecedented dismantling by Congress of essential health care, educational
and social service programs.~
Other bishops agreed. Two days later. Keeler's statement said, "We address
these matters as pastors, not political leaders or policy experts. We
believe these debates have fundamental moral dimensions and human consequences
Ñ [these are] measures that will hurt the very people the Holy Father six
weeks ago called us to defend."
That, with the conference's letter to Congress urging members to rethink
welfare reform and cutting the earned income tax credit that benefits the
working poor, are both good steps.
The bishops deserve our applause.
But how can this play out practically on Election Day?
If the Catholics as voters are expected to be the ballot-box interpreters
and the action arm of this Catholic social teaching, then the bishops have
to understand they've long been sending a mixed message.
For Catholics, the only vote possible on the social issues defended by
church teaching would be for President Clinton and congressional Democrats.
But the bishops are also pushing for what many in their ranks regard as
the major social issue of the day, abortion and the turning back of Roe
v. Wade. And from the bishops' perspective, that's practically the only
issue the Republicans and the right have that coincides with Catholic teaching.
If the bishops truly want to be heard by Catholics, they have to say that
abortion isn't the only issue. Otherwise they're still talking out of both
sides of their political mouths. -END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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|From: John Prewett
|To: ALL
|Sub: FRONTLINE
|Date: 07 Feb 96 15:06:42
EID:60b8 204778c0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12137cb1
FMPT 1012
Anybody see the 6 Feb.96 "Frontline" TV documentary regarding Salvi and
the women he killed [Dec.94] for working in abortion clinics ?
Salvi- A young, unstable Roman Catholic man/boy pushed over
the edge by hard-core anti-abortion rhetoric.
One highlight was Salvi in jail saying that all that really
mattered was that the pope approved of what Salvi did.
Another highlight of the show was when his parents described
the last time they took young Salvi to "midnight mass."
A few nights before he went on his shooting spree,
Salvi's parents took him to RC "midnight mass."
During the service, Salvi got upset, ....
walked to the alter, called the priest a "whore,"
and then walked down the aisle informing the congregation
they were "pussies" [for not doing more to stop abortion].
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: a miracle in the making
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:31:00
EID:9467 204d7be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7fdb4fe2
MG> KW> has to be *very* good scotch before I'll drink it. That
MG> KW> holds true with any whiskey, it has to be really good before
MG> KW> I'll even cook with it (you should have seen Bear's face the
MG> KW> first time he caught me pouring his Jack Daniel's into beef
MG> KW> stew ).
MG>That's about all bourbon is good for....cooking. Or, you can use it
to kill
MG>ants.
A spoonful of bourbon in the frosting kills the sickeningly sweetness of
a
white frosting on white cake. Fill the layers with an apricot puree,
and you might have something worth eating.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "I asked what you knew, not what you believed." - MacLeod
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: RE: NO I'M NOT DEAD
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:31:00
EID:3f7c 204d7be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b8ef5b38
SB>I am investigating a few other leads but I don't know what I am going
to do if
SB>they don't come through.
Scott, I am so sorry. Bear found himself 'unofficially'
blacklisted once over his religion, and we had to relocate. Truckers
are one of the few things that they are advertising for in the El Paso
Times. Do you want me to start e-mailing those ads to you? What else
are you looking for?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Action = Life
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Satanista, no! Pindeho, s
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:31:00
EID:7a63 204d7be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 94f0cc82
JH> KW> So, the major difference is 'An it harm none,'. Would that
JH> KW> line have come from the The Book of Lies?
JH> Nope. That sort of language is too damned fruity to be from Crowley.
Okay.
JH> KW> Or do you think that it is something that Gardener added?
JH> Beyond a reasonable doubt.
Now the question becomes: Was it Gardener or Vallente? :) She wrote
most of his ritual.
JH> Someone needs to translate it into "Lawyerese" with half a dozen
JH> uses of "whereas", "parties of x part" and "it be resolved that".
JH> If that doesn't bring Crowley back from the dead, it'll certainly
JH> make him spin a few times.
ROTFLMASSTC! Can you just see some HP all done up in his robes and
artifacts reading that off by flickering candlelight.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Adam & Yves would have eaten the passionfruit.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: flood
|Date: 14 Feb 96 00:55:00
EID:10ce aa010f60
MSGID: 1:206/2720 1680b24e
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 31207eb0
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> The ESSENCE of a successful hoax is to convince
> people
> utterly of its truth. Countless examples exist of
> people
> giving up their all, enduring torture, and suffering
> death
> for fraudulent ideas that they believed in their
> hearts were
> the absolute truth. Believers, even dying ones, are
> only
> evidence that something is believed in; they are not
> evidence that that thing believed in is the TRVTH.
"They wrote signs of blood on the way they walked, and their folly taught
that with blood one proved truth. But blood is the worst witness of truth;
blood poisons even the purist doctrine and turns it into delusion and hatred
of the heart. And if a man goes through fire for his doctrine- what does
that prove? In truth, it is more if your own doctrine comes out of your
own fire."
Sorry. I hadn't quoted Nietzsche for too long; it's an addiction, really.
Reading too much Nietzsche seems to be the cause. I don't know any cure
(perhaps taking up religion?) It isn't even one of his best quotes; IMHO,
the ending is a tad weak.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SELECT THIS!
|Date: 14 Feb 96 01:06:01
EID:10ce aa010f61
MSGID: 1:206/2720 1680b250
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> FR> #4 You demand you didn't write the words attributed to you
> TR> No, he doesn't demand this... he *states* this. Technicality.
> And then he 'demands' evidence that he did state it.
>
"What we demand is a total absence of solid facts! I demand that I may
or may not be Majikthise!"
I suppose I shouldn't be quoting someone making fun of my own profession,
but Adams was really criticizing unions, anyway. Of course, I support the
Graduate Students Association, my own union, so that doesn't help things
much. What the heck.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Larry Meyering
|Sub: Question
|Date: 13 Feb 96 11:34:49
EID:8ea9 204d5c40
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6d16fdf0
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 311ed6ab
On 07 Feb 96, Larry Meyering wrote:
LM> Your an echo moderator - and you don't have a clue that it takes TIME
LM> for echo messages to get from one place to another place??
Oh, come OFF it, Larry! If the messages appear at my location IN
SEQUENCE, replies following comment, rebuttals following replies, they
are not scrambled by the KNOWN delays elsewhere. If Joe says fuck you,
and Fred says fuck you back, Joe, and Joe then says "got your
intelligent response re: fuck you back; fuck _you_," then the friggin'
messages are IN SEQUENCE regardless of the delays. Crawl back under
your _own_ rock, and take your insults with you. I don't have time for
this crap.
LM> Dave sent his moderator message the slowest way that he possible could
LM> - ie as an echo message -- and you have the balls to complain about
LM> messages that were sent from this BBS BEFORE Dave's message arrived
LM> here!?!?
Dave made mistakes. We all did.
It's OVER!
Drop it like the turd it's become.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... If God is real, we will not find Him 'outside' of reality.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Larry Meyering
|Sub: Question [1]
|Date: 13 Feb 96 11:41:31
EID:8530 204d5d20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d935dfae
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 311ed6ac
On 07 Feb 96, Larry Meyering wrote:
JB> have to _construct_ mine. Theirs is spoon-fed from Bible, Mahabarata,
JB> or whatever the historical source is.
LM> Both images of god, yours and theirs, are constructed. They construct
LM> their god from the words of old documents. You construct your god
LM> from the words of new documents.
LM> Same snake oil - different bottle.
You're calling science 'snake oil?' Well, suit yourself.
LM> Their god is just somewhat different from your god. You dress yours
LM> in the word trapping of science and they dress their's in different
JB> Obvious disagreement. These are not word-trappings. They are actual
JB> science concepts, all of them demonstrable in experiment. When I say
JB> "quantum mechanics," I _mean_ "quantum mechanics" as it really is:
JB> inherently nonlocal and full of counterintuitive (but experimentably
JB> proven) behaviours. The "New Age" does what you accuse me of, but
JB> they're just as mistaken as you are (and probably more so).
LM> As there is no such thing as the "science concept[s]" of *any* god,
I
LM> would be very interested in these "demonstrable experiment[s]" of
LM> yours.
I doubt that. Why would you --an atheist-- be interested in _anything_
--from science or not-- that can be used as a subunit 'brick' in an
overall concept structure enabling a God-concept?
LM> John, you've told us time and time again that you do not know the
LM> math. Quantum mechanics is *all* math. It is, therefore, not far
Either Heisenberg or Bohr --I don't have the reference ready to hand--
is on record as saying that if the thing cannot be explained in
_English_, it's probably not worth messing with. All mathematical
perambulations are also _concepts_. The math that describes a falling
object of 'x' mass in a gravitational field of 'y' strength is also a
concept, a word-describable _image_ of something falling. The math does
not dictate the object-image; the object image is empirically quantified
by the math. You have it backwards.
LM> fetched to
LM> say that you know nothing about quantum mechanics. What you do know
'Tain't far-fetched to _say_ that, no. It's wrong, though. Most, if
not all, of the originators of quantum mechanics, and many of the modern
explorers of same, have written books about it, with almost NO math in
them, _describing_ as best they could, the phenomena themselves. One
does NOT need a shred of math to understand the Aspect experiment, and
the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox is describable in words. Most if
not all of the effects in QM or anywhere else in science are describable
in the language of English, as well as in many of the other "modern,
technologically usable" languages of Earth. All I see in your lack-of-
math equals lack-of-brain claptrap is a whole lot of hubris --Ego.
All that math does is "fine tune" or make more precision, the mental
construct that is the understanding of the experiment in question.
LM> is exactly what the rest of us that don't know the math also know -
ie
LM> - the metaphors that those that *do* know the math use to try and
LM> explain QM
LM> to us. Metaphors that *you* extrapolate into your QG.
A description of 'physical' events in an unambiguously _real_
experimental setup, together with the clear reports of the effects
(results) observed in that experiment, is not a "metaphor."
LM> Show me ANY way that the extrapolation of metaphors is science and/or
LM> can even be called science.
Your definition of "science," please? Is psychology "science?" Is
historical biology, with zero access to livING creatures of the past,
"science?" Science means "knowing." It has a method, which is not
always usable in its most empirical form. Is theoretical particle
physics or cosmology, in which things are posited which can _never_ be
tested, "science?" Of course it is. A theory IS a "metaphor" so long
as it remains untested, and there are lots of perfectly "scientific"
things currently extant that can't BE tested. Are they thus "not
science?" Gimme _your_ interpretation of the word.
JB> The fundies don't understand what _either_ me or the "New Age" is
JB> talking about.
LM> John, your extrapolation of metaphors also shows that you don't
LM> understand what your talking about either.
You likely wish. Pity.
JB> The age of the earth is an irrelevant issue to me. Science says it's
JB> old, so it's old. Gods have nothing to do with it. The fundie-
JB> cretinists _have_to_have_ it young. I don't bother about how old it
JB> is unless I'm arguing about it with a fundie-cretinist. Science
JB> provides that data.
LM> Your god would have a hard time with a young earth. There god has a
LM> hard time with an old earth.
So? Whose determiner do _you_ use? Religion's? or science's? I use
science's. It's the only reliable or even semi-reliable truth-source I
know of. You know of another, more reliable one? Tell me.
Absent of that, science tells me the earth is old, so whatever God gets
posited is stuck with that. Too bad for the fundie-cretinists' Judeo-
Christian incarnatable volcano God. Not too bad for the "Quantum God
Hypothesis."
LM> earth. They don't know nor care how their god works miracles - your
LM> god works at the quantum level to perform miracles. Both of you have
JB> Any rational God better have a way to scientifically permit It's
JB> "miracles," eh?
LM> What metaphors used to explain quantum mechanics are you extrapolating
LM> to provide evidence that this QG of yours is "rational"?
Several things. One of them is that It (the "Quantum God") has stuck in
its workings, supposedly "rational" beings (us), made of essentially the
same stuff It is. QM must describe brain (human), in which the only
definition of rationalaity we know of is found. If QG "is," as the Mind
of the Universe operating with its "neurons" being nonlocal connections
amongst the distributed matter of the universe, then it's reasonable to
assume our definition of "rational" might apply to It also, if only
because some of "It" _IS_ "rational" (some of "It" is _Us_).
JB> You do see, don't you, that there's nothing specifically
JB> Judeo-Christian abou the Quantum God Hypothesis? If it is to hold up,
JB> it must provide a means for logically accounting for ALL perceptions
JB> of God --bar _none_. It is as underlying of Hinduism and the Void
of
JB> the Buddhists as it is of the Yahweh-volcano-god. Science, if it is
JB> used to construct a god- concept (philosophically, not
JB> "scientifically" since science itself doesn't do gods) carries with
it
JB> its Universality: that which is "scientifically true" is
JB> scientifically true across the full earth and all its peoples.
JB> Logically, anything that's a "One God" had better be as
JB> Universally-applicable as science is, at _least_.
LM> Gods is gods, John. Be they constructed by the Romans, the Greeks,
LM> by some bastardization of the Jews, or by some wild ass guess based
LM> on the metaphors used by those that know quantum mechanics to explain
LM> it to the rest of us - they are all the same - nothing but the
LM> imagination of the contractor.
So you believe. As you believe, so you perceive. The QGH contains a
reason why the God--if there is one--got Itself badly perceived all down
through history. Your _opinion_ --that there isn't one-- does not mean
that there isn't one; it means that _you_ have decided that there isn't
one. If there is, that will eventually be shown, since QGH is at root
based on "real" physics --including the peculiar-but-real behaviour of
the Universe's spacetime metric as found in QM. If not, then not, but
in neither case will anyone's _opinion_ --_yours_ OR _mine_ --be found
to be the deciding factor, .
LM> a test for the hypothesis. What test of your QG hypothesis have you
LM> designed?
One that you wouldn't agree was "empirical enough," but which derives
straight from the underlying quantum experimentation that proves the
essential requirements valid. QGH at present can only be tested via
statistical means and involving "directed coincidence."
LM> Science used to construct a philosophy that postulates a god that
LM> science can't provide evidence for the existence of?? - listen to
LM> yourself, John. A construction of science that just happens to
LM> postulate some thing
LM> that science doesn't do? That ain't science, John.
Ah. So the TOE and Superstring theory, not to mention gross cosmology,
"ain't science," Larry? One "scientific" version of the former requires
a linear accelerator the diameter of the galaxy.... Science has several
grand, sweeping, supposedly acceptable-by-scientists theories that
science can't do anything to test. Is the "Many Worlds" interpretation
of QM an acceptably "scientific" theoretical construct, to you? (It is,
to more than a few well-known physicists.) If so, then scrap science,
Larry, because that one is _inherently_ nonfalsifiable by science.
You're arguing from an echo-chamber. You don't see your own arguments
as applied to actual science today; all you see is echoes of your own
desired opinions. The worst you can do is class yourself thereby, right
in the same bag as me. "Quantum God," my _ass_.... "Galaxy-diameter
linear accelerator," my _ass_....
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... E^2/c^2 = p^2 + m^2*c^2
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Larry Meyering
|Sub: Tag-lines
|Date: 13 Feb 96 12:30:06
EID:c06e 204d63c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 7180deec
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 311ed6b4
On 12 Feb 96, Larry Meyering wrote:
JB> get away with crap like 'I'm now going to deliberately find the most
JB> offensive anti-Christian taglines possible, and use nothing BUT those
JB> on my messages.' (That's paraphrased, but I'll _quote_ what was said
JB> if I have to. But then, _you_ have the specific message in question
JB> archived as well as I do.)
LM> Tell you what, John. Why don't you quote just ONE of these
LM> "deliberately offensive anti-christian taglines" that were posted by
LM> me to the Bio echo. Surely you can do that - can't you? After all,
Read my words, Larry. The paraphrase is perfectly accurate, written
plainly, and quite close to the actual wording used.
LM> this is what you responded to - isn't it? Something that was done.
Bullshit. I responded to the BALDLY STATED _INTENT_. You can get
_arrested_ for no more than _threatening_ the President of the U.S.
LM> Surely your not going to tell us that you responded to - NOTHING BUT
A
LM> CLAIM - are you?
I responded to NOTHING BUT A _THREAT_. ("Claim," my friggin' boots!)
The time to prevent the dog from shitting on the rug is when you can see
for sure he's _thinking_ about it, not after it's too late and you're
stuck with a mess to clean up. You're damn right I responded to NOTHING
BUT A CLAIM, but it wasn't a _claim_, it was a THREAT.
LM> Your not going to tell us that not ONE of these "deliberately
LM> offensive anti-christian taglines" was ever posted to the echo - are
LM> you?
Not one (after the one that started all that b.s.) of these
"deliberately offensive anti-Christian taglines" was ever posted to the
echo --I am quite happy that slapping the dog _before_ he could shit,
prevented it.
LM> You responded to nothing but a claim. You may, of course, assume
LM> anything that you wish to assume - but understand - you responded to
LM> NOTHING but your assumptions. You did not respond to any action that
LM> was taken by me.
I responded to a THREAT, Buster, and what's more, I can claim success in
_preventing_ that _threat_ from becoming a reality.
LM> As far as I know, Harold has never responded to a any claim. He is
at
LM> least smart enough to wait until some thing is done - as are all other
LM> moderators that I've ever seen - excepting the ones on Bio - they
LM> respond to things not done.
They --this one, at least-- chooses to slap the dog before he shits,
_especially_ when the dog SAYS OPENLY that he _intends_ without
question, hesitation, or recant, to shit as much as he can as often as
he can.
Enough of this.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... 'Think globally, act locally'
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 289/72
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 7107/9
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 218/801
|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Bartender!
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:31:00
EID:ed8a 204d7be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 55233631
RS>J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Robert Jackson:
RS> JJH> Great idea!
RS>I second that!
I'll play.
RS> JJH> Lets start throwing datum out there and see if anyone compiles
RS> JJH> them into a list.
RS> JJH> User Favorite Poison
RS> JJH>
RS> JJH> ------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> JJH> - The Late J.J. Hitt Sugar-laden teeth rotting Cola
RS> Ryan Shaw draught Guinness
Katherine Wintersnight coffee w\c&s, mead
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Don't dispute death unless you've lived through it."
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: The Light
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:31:00
EID:57c2 204d7be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 50d9cd73
DW> BJ> Your last line in your message, is that wishfull thinking?
DW>That's called an origin line, shithead.
DW>---
DW> * Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
In an all time new low the xtians are now quibbling with origin lines
as well as taglines.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Facts are stupid things." -- Ronald Reagan
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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PATH: 381/123 900 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Persevere
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:31:00
EID:429a 204d7be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidone