God Damned Fundies!
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Exclude the unaffected
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:15:18
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a3e
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 311a6475
PID: FM 2.02
> JS> (Gal 1:9 NIV) As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody
> JS> is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him
be
> JS> eternally condemned!
> SA> Nifty. Since I accept the writings of Lao Tzu (which can be
> SA> considered "good news" - ie, "gospel"), therefore any Christian who
> SA> preaches to me the bible is condemned. Har.
> MH> You don't seriously think that's what it means, do you?
> MH>
> MHo> Well, not to mince words, but it is the literal gist of it.
> MH>
> MHo> seriously implying that it only applies to Christians, well,
> MHo> because they're the 'only true faith'?
> MH> I'm saying it applies only to Christians because it was a message
> MH> aimed directly at Christians and no one else.
> MHo> So, you're a Really, True Christian, AND prejudiced. Nice.
> MH> Think about it, Mark. The letter was from a what? Christian
> MH> evangelist, right! And it was sent to who? A Christian church, right.
> MH> So the message was meant for what group?
> MHo> That you can say that with a straight face is a mystery to me,
> MHo> Michael. Look: It was a letter from a what? A Christian
> MHo> evangelist. It was sent to who? A Christian church. So, it can be
> MHo> applied to who? Christians. So, the next time a, what? Christian
> ...
> MHo> preaches to me, I'll proclaim (Gal 1:9 NIV). You said yourself,
it
> MHo> only applies to Christians. That's fine; I'll use it on
> Christians.
> MHo> They're the REALLY preachy ones, anyway.
lb> Just trying to keep the definitions straight, Fred. Based on
lb> this, since Mike is keeping nonbelievers out of his "fantasy
lb> construct",
No he doesn't. Hardy include the unaffected in with his religious beliefs.
He believes that everyone "sins" -- a religious construct. He believes
that "sinners" (of which he includes the unaffected) are capable of going
to "hell" -- another religious construct.
You're trying to claim that because he excludes the unaffected in one aspect
of his occultism, it let's him off the hook for all the others.
The definition holds.
~*~ Egypt was trouble by the horrible asp, yeah yeah yeah yeah,
Mister Charles Darwin had the gall to ask - R.E.M.
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Violating physics -- use a condom. Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:18:46
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a3f
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 dd010612
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Your own words evidence your lack of knowledge in reguards even the
FR> simplest of physics, John. You're searching vainly for deities in
>> A more unperceptive and incorrect prejudicial
>> assessment would be hard to imagine.
FR> For you, perhaps. You want to pretend that you're ahead of science
FR> and that the rest of the world will eventually catch up to you. You
FR> fancy yourself as another Galileo.
jb> Ah. That particular form of erroneous mental garbage is
jb> called, by cognitive scientists, "jumping to conclusions."
You're only being dishonest to yourself, John. Like any Creationist, you
pretend that science will eventually catch up with you. You're what Richard
Feynman often complained about.
It's pretty pathetic, actually. You don't understand a science and you
know you never will so you concoct a fiction and pretend everyone else is
wrong and will catch up to you. Pathetic and lazy.
~*~ I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a Biblical lobotomy.
- David Rice
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Tim Pauly
|Sub: Revised (by ME) HS list
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:19:55
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a40
REPLY: 1:2613/377 56b99b50
PID: FM 2.02
TP> a) I believe in the God of the Bible.
mg> Can you present non biblicval evidence that your god is real?
tp> No need to.
Sure you do. The Christanic mythologies are proven anonymous forgeries
frought with hundreds of contradictions and scientific errors. If you want
to demand that there are deities hopping around, you need to present some
evidence.
~*~ What is so amazing about a baby being born from a virgin? - James Conwell
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Ignorance
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:20:59
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a41
PID: FM 2.02
> Everything God wants us to know and how He wants us to conduct
> ourselves has been clearly spelled out for us.
Before you can claim what your deity constructs can do and what they can
not do, you need to present evidence for the existance of your deity constructs.
Have any? Any at all?
~*~ My self I would hump a camel before a Jewish female. - Jim Lammon
As if either would have you. -- Robert Curry
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: hey, Hitler was one of you
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:21:41
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a42
REPLY: 3:711/933 3117cd7a
PID: FM 2.02
FR> If you're a nazi, yes.
ags> Are you a Nazi? I should think that is nothing to be proud of.
Hitler was a Christian. Get over it.
~*~ All the gut-wrenching irony of America's low prioritization
of education is present in your origin line. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:22:45
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a43
REPLY: 1:271/460 311b0270
PID: FM 2.02
MB>> Then how come Jehovah, in the first person, yet, bragged about
MB>> having created it (in Isaiah)?
SW>> Where does it say that Marilyn?
FR> Another Christanic doesn't even bother reading his mythologies.
dw>> Try reading this:
dw>> "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL:
dw>> I the LORD do all these things."
dw>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^ - Isaiah 45:7
FR> A buck says the Christanic will demand you're "twisting god's words."
km> Very Good you've learned to read the Bible.
It's too bad David didn't bet otherwise I would be a buck richer!
~*~ If I repent anything, it will probably be my good behavior. - Marty
Leipzig
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:23:36
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a44
REPLY: 1:271/460 311b032e
PID: FM 2.02
BH>> CHRISTIAN HORIZONS
KW>> Looks fine to me. If the organization is owned and run by
KW>> christians why shouldn't they be able to choose who they
KW>> want as employees?
FR> But then Ken is a bigot.
km> Isn't that kinda like the pot calling the kettle burnt?
No. You're a hate-filled bigot who would murder your own son. You said
so yourself.
~*~ I wonder if Jesse would do jury duty, or does being a lawyer
disqualify one for a position that requires honest and unbiased
judgement of evidence? - jonny vee
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW, Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:24:56
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a45
REPLY: 1:271/460 311b03ff
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Why don't you and Al just do what every other Christanic cultist
fr> does and kill each other, allowing your intellectual superiors
fr> to talk rationally among themselves?
km> Be happy to allow my intellectual superiors to talk rationally
km> amongst themselves, unfortunatly, I don't find any around here.
That's because your critical thinking facilities have been damaged by your
need to believe in the occult. It would be a great service to humanity
were warring Christanic factions to quietly solve their occultism someplace
without involving innocent people.
~*~ Personally, I vote that there be fines and arrests for consenting
adults if they are not married--heterosexual or otherwise. - Mark Fox
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Free Jim Staal!
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:25:34
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a46
REPLY: 1:271/460 311b0448
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I wonder if Jim Staal _can_ be freed from his hatred and bigotry.
fr> He doesn't seem to want to escape Christianity any more.
km> No true Christian would......
Which deserves a great measure of pity.
~*~ I am free to think any way I please. I Corinthians 6:12. - Jim Staal
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Gods, not god, staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:26:44
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a47
REPLY: 1:271/460 311b04b1
PID: FM 2.02
CM>> It's not very smart to worship a rock.
fr>> Whereas you worship paper.
FR> So much for your Christanic lie about fleeing this forum in fear.
cm>> How do I worship paper?
FR> You're not a Christian so you only pretend to worship paper.
km> From all that you've said to others and myself Fredric, specifically
km> about who was a Christian and what that so called Christian did, I
km> doubt very much if you would know a Christian if you fell over one.
Anyone who claims to believe in the Christanic mythologies is a Christanic
death cultist, Ken. That includes your fellow death cultist Adolf Hitler.
Hitler was one of yours. Get over it.
~*~ ...to debate Christianity does not mean that I am here
to learn any truth contrary to my beliefs. - Kenneth Mcabee
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:27:53
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a48
REPLY: 1:271/460 311b04dc
PID: FM 2.02
cm>> Here I thought no one loved me anymore! You guys are just
cm>> talking ABOUT me instead of TO me. Gee, I get left out of
cm>> my own conversations!!!
FR> We've figured out that you're not a Christian.
km> Another judgement by Fredric Rice.
The guy forgot to remove his sex chat forums on his BBS before someone from
this educational forum went and did a little online investigations. He's
not a Christanic death cultist.
And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
~*~ Atheism is no more a religion than abstinence is a form of drinking.
- Marilyn Burge
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Laser tech
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:31:26
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a49
REPLY: 1:157/200 4a02077c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Hubble already is unnecessary. The CCD telecopes in Hawii are
FR> capable of Hubble-level deep-space astronomy. The software which
FR> runs on the data does exclude atmospheric distortion entirely and the
FR> CCD scopes are often coupled to the DSN to provide extreme VLBI
FR> astronomy.
kdm> You sure about this? I know the Armed Forces have some
kdm> groundbased telescopes that make the Hubble (visually) look
kdm> like a toy, but I wasn't aware the new telescopes on Hawaii
kdm> were working that well.
I believe that telescope power is measured in terms of resolution ability.
If that's the case then the new type of telecops in the Hawaian Island chain
are equal to the task of Hubble. It might be that what I saw was when they
were used in VLBI observations using the Deep Space Network.
~*~ Good grief. Guess he's never read the bible he is thumping. - David
Rice
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Staal's not quality fundy #holysmoke
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:38:27
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a4a
REPLY: 1:157/200 4a0207af
PID: FM 2.02
dw> I think we're finally making a dent in their reserves. Give us
dw> two hundred more years, and we'll be facing "Tim Allen" grunters.
FR> Yes, I think that all of FidoNet has learned about the hurtful truth
FR> here at HolySmoke and perhaps Undernet will learn the hurtful truth
FR> about #holysmoke as well.
kdm> After last night, who knows?
}:-} I was mistaken (first time!) There are enough nuts on IRC to keep
us employed reguardless of whether everyone gets the word or not.
~*~ Try again, Kim. Only next time, try the truth instead of a lie.
- David Rice
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:40:17
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a4b
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 11c08f7e
PID: FM 2.02
> Please send in your entries!
> The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List
Fredric Rice Goateee StarGoat's Own Diet Coke
~*~ "Jews are only good for one thing, bringing in as a sacrifice
unto the Lord." - Pat Robertson.
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Oppose the Religios Right
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:41:28
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a4c
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 11c08f85
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Found this item in alt.society.labor-unions; thought it might be of
FR> interest here, so I'm posting it for everyone's information.
rs> Why are you falling for this liberalist crap!? Can't you see that it
rs> doesn't matter if we have Jesus H. Christ in office just as long as
I
rs> have lower taxes to buy more shit.
}:-} Yep. I'm all for increased intolerance, hatred, and bigotry provided
my taxes go down.
~*~ The human mind treats a new idea the way the body
treats a strange protein; it rejects it. - P. B. Medawar
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: hi
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:45:30
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a4d
REPLY: 1:272/99 0013e3d3
PID: FM 2.02
PS> He also forbids the wearing of mixed-fiber clothing and males
PS> shaving their faces. Do you do either one?
AM> No. I'm under the new covenent, not the old. The N.T. also
AM> forbids witch craft ect. ect.
Which means that your deity constructs have nothing wrong with homosexuality.
~*~ I found it! I found Magog! It's in the province of Quebec ..
in the 819 area code. - Sue Armstrong
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Micharl Hardy
|Sub: children
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:49:27
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a4e
REPLY: 1:272/99 0013e40e
PID: FM 2.02
MH> Children who haven't yet learned enough in order to *knowingly*
MH> choose right and wrong are not held responsible by God, in my
MH> belief. Sin has to be a concious choice, and it can only be a
MH> concious choice for someone who knows enough to make such a choice.
According to your own superstition, then, Christianics spreading the cult's
dogma are responsible for everyone who "sins."
~*~ I believe that God does inflict His presense upon the earth.
- Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: n gods
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:54:11
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a4f
PID: FM 2.02
bj> You think of me as a foolish man because of my belief in the
bj> bible and God Jesus Christ?
Anyone who believes in the unevidenced is pretty much a fool of some kind,
Brad. The degree of rabidity is a broad spectrum, of course.
~*~ AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it Is God's
punishment for the society that Tolerates Homosexuals. - Jerry Falwell
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: All the Gods' mythologies
|Date: 19 Feb 96 12:55:04
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a50
PID: FM 2.02
bj> Ryan if you would have taken the time yourself to read
bj> the bible you would have found out that what this fellow
bj> wrote in that book was false.
If you would read the mythologies _once_, you would see that the myths are
fabrications frought with contradictions and scientific errors.
~*~ "Who beta tested Preparations A through G?" - Marilyn Burge
"Some assholes." - J.J. Hitt
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Tim Pauly
|Sub: HS list
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:01:47
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a51
REPLY: 1:2613/377 56baa32c
PID: FM 2.02
>> Amazing how millions can have an equally fulfilling life
>> without wasting their time worshipping those delusional
>> fiction-friends, huh. Gee...makes you wonder how they can
>> enjoy life without suffering the way you must do. Wonder
tp> Where do you keep getting this idea that I'm somehow "suffering".
Your inability to think critically tends to support the supposistion.
~*~ I've noticed the distinct lack of civility in here. - Rick Mcfarlane
So what did you expect, a fucking door prize? - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rodney Green
|Sub: Religion Debate?
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:02:18
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a52
REPLY: 1:260/801.0 311e54a0
PID: FM 2.02
rg> Why debate about religion when we could talk about Jesus?
~*~ You think I wanted to appease you? To endear myself to the heathen
hooligans who patrol this smelly place? - Jesse C. Jones (HolySmoke forum)
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Holy Technology!
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:03:51
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a53
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311de1b1
PID: FM 2.02
Don Martin said:
> The 1846 Scientific American, citing C.G. Gilroy, "The Art of
> Weaving," mentions an improved Jacquard loom capable of "working an
> unlimited variety of figures and colors, as would appear from the
> fact that the night dress of Pope Boniface, which was woven in one
> of these machines, contained 276 different colors, so arranged and
> blended to display the likenesses of 276 heretics, each suffering
> under some species of torture different from any of the others."
>
> --"50, 100 and 150 Years Ago," Scientific American,
> February 1996, p 12.
>
> It takes a lotta stitchin' to give a Pope sweet dreams . . .
And Christians demand they didn't join a death cult.
~*~ No new life forms are appearing anywhere in the world that came from
other life forms (i.e. rabbits becoming dogs or whatever)
- Ray Speakmon
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Ignorance
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:12:43
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a54
REPLY: 1:289/80 311F052D
PID: FM 2.02
eh> I know I'm going to get slammed right and left for this one,
That's a variation of the argument known as "poisoning the well."
eh> I feel there is no need for name-calling,
eh> blasphemous (to Christianity) replies.
"Blasphemy" is a religious belief not evidenced in reality. As such the
better educated are incapable of "blasphemy."
~*~ Amazing how Hawking in his wheelchair has
journeyed farther than you with your legs. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:15:18
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a55
REPLY: 1:289/80 311F052D
PID: FM 2.02
eh> Christianity has been called a cult. Well, it is similar,
eh> only we don't go out and kill people.
My guess is you haven't learned any world history. The Christanic death
cult is the single worse deadly tyranny ever created by men. Christanics
have murdered more people than any other cult or any other ideology or natural
disaster save epidemic.
_Learn_ a little about the death cult, Eric.
~*~ Those menacing atheists with their dangerous questions
are coming! Run for your lives! - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF update, Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:17:11
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a56
REPLY: 1:246/15 3117F7EE
PID: FM 2.02
sw> Focus on the Family
FR> Focus on the Family is a charasmatic cult. I worked inside of their
FR> cult at Pomona, California, for several months and learned first hand
FR> how evil they and Christianity truely is.
FR>
FR> Try picking your masters a little better, cultist.
sw> Focus on the Family is a well respected Christian organization.
So was Jim Jones, David Duke, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts,
David Koresh, Adolf Hitler... The Focus on the Family cult is led by a
charasmatic cult leader and its ideologies are those of hatred and intolerance,
fear and manipulation, just as Marion "Pat" Robertson's cult is.
~*~ I think this is plenty of evidence backing up my hypothesis that
your family tree does not fork. - Ryan Shaw
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Ignorance
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:18:34
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a57
PID: FM 2.02
> God used this youngster to bring to her the realization that He
> still had service for her to perform, and that her situation was not
Before you can demand what your deity constructs have done and what they
have not done, you must present evidence for the existance of your deity
constructs. Otherwise you're putting the cart before the horse.
Have any evidence? Any at all?
~*~ Did you know that whiskey was made to keep the Irish
from ruling the world? -
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Fun-dee Staal pays church
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:20:46
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a58
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 11804274
PID: FM 2.02
SR> Yes...as they go hand over hand...twisting the
SR> guilt-ridden cork screw upon their sheeple.
JS> Evidence?
sr> You could call it that if you so wish. I prefers to call it extortion.
FR> I wonder what percentage of tithes end up defending
fr> lawsuits and paying damages for rape.
sr> By the very priests who steal it from
sr> their sheeple-flock in the first place!
It's quite the scam, isn't it? Christianity fells fear and then sells the
cure -- only to use the money to inflict inhuman tyrannies upon the populace
which increases the misery of the populace turn to them in the first place.
If it wasn't for my high ethics and my higher morality, I would LOVE to
get into as good a money-making deal as that.
~*~ I wet the bed. Often. What can I do?
Will prayer help me? - Kirby Nixon
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: FOF cult
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:21:47
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a59
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 11804282
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Try picking your masters a little better, cultist.
SW> Focus on the Family is a well respected Christian organization.
sr> HAhahaha!!! They've sure got you trained well enough.
It's amazing. Followers of the Jim Bakker cult and the Jimmy Swaggart cult
say exactly thye same thing as this cultist.
~*~ Staal is a prime example of someone who uses
Jesus to excuse his behaviour. - Steve Quarrella
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Staal IGNORANCE 5:3-11
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:22:51
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a5a
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312002a6
PID: FM 2.02
FR> wish it didn't take so long for the technology to trickle down.
fr> I mean, where's _MY_ Toyota-mounted Sidewinder missles?
ps> Might be handy for clearing up those traffic jams.
FR> More like making them worse. }:-}
ps> Not if you use enough of them often enough.
You run the risk of digging up the roads to the point where they're not
driveable. }{:=}
~*~ Do you have a single SHRED OF EVIDENCE?? Or are you just going
to spew scripture like a busted shitpipe? - Gary Glunz
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: F=MA (every time) (Unless you're Staal inwhich case science isn't.)
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:24:46
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a5b
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312002a7
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Yesterday David and I went to see why my newest purchase is taking so
FR> long to deliver and the guy we went to see had an old rifle which
FR> shoots one-inch projectiles. It's classed as a relic and it's mounted
FR> as one.
ps> Sheesh. How old is old?
This one was about 300 years old. I asked the guy if it was a replica and
he told me that it is an antique.
ps> Not going to get any letters of marque
ps> if we get into a war, are you?
FR> I'm thinking about freeing Cuba so I
fr> can go in their with investment dollars.
ps>
Viva de resistance!
David looked at my boat's bow and concluded that any cannon mounted on the
stanctions would not be able to actually fire a projectile else the bow
would come apart. Since I don't want to fire blanks, the bow chaser is
out. Now I'll have to take a look at the stern. }:-}
~*~ I tried thinking before, and I almost fell into the same mess YOU
are now in. - Joanna Amren (Defending Christanic Creationism myths)
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Door to door deity sellers
|Date: 19 Feb 96 13:27:34
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a5c
REPLY: 1:157/200 4d020b08
PID: FM 2.02
kd> A friend claims that when missionaries knock on her door, her
kd> first response is to ask for their address. When they ask why she
kd> wants to know, she says it is so she can visit them to push her
kd> beliefs.
kdm> [Note: I'm gonna try this one]
FR> Me too. Except that fundy cultists don't
FR> come to my door much any more. }:-}
kdm> Gee, I wonder why not?
My guess is that eventually they _can_ learn from their mistakes.
kdm> I don't get any myself. Instead, I get frat boys.
Yeah? I wouldn't mind having some frat gurls coming over here.
~*~ At which point would you like me to start over? - Dave Schultz
Oh, when the doctor first spanked your ass would be a good place. - S.R.
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Staal's not Quality fundy time
|Date: 19 Feb 96 14:40:13
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190e935b
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12088250
PID: FM 2.02
jp> They are just not wasting time on YOU.
fR> But then you believe JFK is sill alive
FR> and will take over the planet with Henry Kissinger.
FR> Your opinions are pretty much easilly ignored.
jp> You're a treasure to me Fred.
Er, I'm not gay, John. Sorry. }:-}
jp> Later on, your statements will be ever so useful.
Childish threats. Gonna start shooting people like your fellow
Christians down through the centuries to "get even" with your intellectual
superiors?
~*~ Hey, man, that's straight from satan's hell. - Phil Morrison
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: One Staal (Under his god)
|Date: 19 Feb 96 14:41:44
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190e935c
PID: FM 2.02
BJ> I would like to point out some good news, I found about God[sic].
DR> He's dead.
ms> ...And there was much rejoicing.
FR> And another twenty took its place.
ns> Well, there's your problem...you got the porch
ns> light on. Attracts all kinds of loathsome bugs...};)
I'm gonna have to install some no-fundy strips and some fundy-zappers.
~*~ This line added to support David Rice's
counting fetish. :-) - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 19 Feb 96 14:45:32
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190e935d
PID: FM 2.02
TL> << BY WIDE MARGINS IN EACH BODY, THE HOUSE AND SENATE PASSED
TL> THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT OF 1996 WITH AN AMENDMENT THAT
TL> PROHIBITS THE USE OF INDECENT SPEECH ONLINE AND ANOTHER THAT
TL> BARS DISCUSSION OF ABORTION ON THE INTERNET. THE PRESIDENT,
>> Fuck, I shoulda never been born. Ooops! Double Ooops!
>> What idiots those posers be...
FR> This TLP clown is about as rabid as they can get.
ns> This is the first time I've seen a post from them, so I had no
ns> idea. Glad to know what the standard is, though...especially
ns> around here...};)
Usually TLP posts these wild extremist anti-government "pronouncements"
about Waco, Texas, or Ruby Ridge. He and his little band parade back and
forth in front of government offices calling for the arrests of the people
inside. I wouldn't mind seeing Janet Reno tried for treason against
the State and I certainly would like to see the officers involved tried
for murder, but these lunatics' anti-government extremism makes me wonder
why they just don't leave the United States if they think it's been taken
over by Jews -- or whatever they think is controlling them.
~*~ Really, I want the wife to pull the fucking trigger
on me if I do that. - Steve Quarrella
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Another list: Hide the gods!
|Date: 19 Feb 96 14:53:31
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190e935e
PID: FM 2.02
With Norbert Sykes:
bj> I would like to point out some good news, I found about God.
FR> You found some gods? Neat! Let me guess,
FR> you found them in the toilet, right?
ns> ...under some sofa cushions, along with 37 cents in change?
ns> ...in the pocket of a dirty pair of jeans?
ns> ...behind the lint filter on the dryer?
ns> ...where-ever your wallet and keys were hiding?
Behind the Big Bang?
In the discount book bin at K-Mart?
At the solid waste reclaimation depository?
In the mythology section of your used book store?
ns> I see a potential for great sport here...Deity hide and seek.
Oh where of where has the Christian gods gone,
Oh where or where can they be?
The cultists have died but their ignorance lives on,
Oh why oh why can't they theenk?
ns> The Deities all go hide, and we pick someone we don't
ns> care for to go and look for them, kinda like a snipe hunt.
And hope that the one we send searching gets "smited" when they find them.
ns> The tough part will be running around in the bushes with
ns> burlap sacks making Deity noises...should get us arrested...};)
}:-}
~*~ But when judgement is cast down upon you ... don't forget to get out
your calculator and convert the temperature in hell from Celsius to Rankin
units. - David (Christian Soldier)
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 19 Feb 96 14:57:06
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190e935f
PID: FM 2.02
Steve Wallis
SW> Focus on the Family is a well respected Christian organization. As for
jb> FoF is a well-heeled hate group who, if they called themselves
jb> what they really are, are no better than the KKK. They HATE...
jb> gays, women, blacks, Hispanics, orientals, other religions. All
jb> in the name of Jesus, of course.
And they sell that hatred for a price. They sell fear to the populace and
then sell "cures" to allieviate the fears they sell. They're not in it
to raise the world's level of misery, I wager, other than that there's a
profit for them in doing so.
~*~ "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade
of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders
will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- Thomas Jefferson, to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: Texas Triangle Addresses
|Date: 19 Feb 96 14:58:26
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190e9360
REPLY: 1:154/69.0 312012ff
PID: FM 2.02
> Texas Triangle addresses: 1615 W. 6th St., Austin, TX
> 78703
> Voice: 512-476-0576
> Fax: 512-472-8154
> Email: txtriangle@aol.com
> URL: http://www.outline.com/triangle/hp.html
Joy! Thanks for the information. I'm printing it out now and I'll check
the web pages to see if there are back issues and such.
I'm so happy! (Er, notice I didn't say "I'm so gay?")
~*~ The KNEES! You forgot the KNEES! If he wanted Mankind to kneel, he
would have made it more-comfortable, no? :) - Scot Vertullo
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jen Barrett
|Sub: god=hoax staal=bigot
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:00:43
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190e9361
REPLY: 1:18/73.0 8922D2F3
PID: FM 2.02
jd> Show me concrete proof that there is a god.
fr> There is none. There's no evidence either.
jb> Thank you! That is my point ! Finally I have
jb> found intelligent life on this earth!
Nearly all the participants on this forum acknowledge the lack of evidence
for deity constructs, Jen. There's only about half a dozen fundies who
believe there is (but refuse to provide it.) Some of the theists on this
forum actually admit that they have no evidence but they appear to be in
the minority.
~*~ The only fear of death that I have is the fear that whatever
kills me is going to hurt like a sonuvabitch. -- Quentin Fai
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Michael Hardly: No different than Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:02:28
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190e9362
REPLY: 1:124/9005 311fa02d
PID: FM 2.02
FR> It seems that Hardly only reads messages which he feels come
fr> from people who won't point out his obvious lies and
fr> superstitions.
sq> I have to admit, I suddenly got "The Jesse Cold Shoulder"
sq> from him at one point, unless by some strange coincidence
sq> all my echomails to him didn't make it to the BBS from
sq> which he posts. Guess my rights were violated.
The fundy never answered that question, did he?
sq> "Christmas trees."
Blasphemy!
~*~ You must learn to over-come gravity. It is plain to see you
have never had an erection. - Joe Schultz
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: pope p.o'd at prots
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:13:35
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29e3
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca1
PID: FM 2.02
> GUATEMALA CITY (AP) -- Directly confronting the challenge to his
> church's traditional dominance in Central America, Pope John Paul II
But then you believe JFK will "rise up" and take over the planet with Henry
Kissinger.
~*~ I also know from experience that if a spell is cast on a buddist, a
humanist, or any else, the spell my penetrate. But, on a christian,
the spell is powerless. - Jose Gomez
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Exactly what Christianity is
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:14:30
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29e4
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12137cb1
PID: FM 2.02
> Salvi- A young, unstable Roman Catholic man/boy pushed over
> the edge by hard-core anti-abortion rhetoric.
He's just doing EXACTLY what the Christanic death cult was created for,
John. He's only do what Christianity has done for the past 2,000 years.
What you should focus on is the fact that you and he joined the same death
cult.
~*~ There are many who are really troubled because low, debasing thoughts
come into the mind, and are not easily banished. - Phil Morrison
They become Christian clergy, in fact. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Tom Hart
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:17:29
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29e5
PID: FM 2.02
th> Could someone please explain what part(s) of the Christian
th> text are allegory or what parts are not, and why.
FR> Each Christian picks and chooses which are "allegoary" and
fr> which are not, changing their beliefs as needed to fit their
fr> social, economic, and politic agenda of the moment.
th> Would you say they don't know what is allegory and what is not?
I would say that believers in the mythologies change their beliefs in accord
with whatever is convienient at the time. "Salad bar Christians" they're
called.
th> And lastly, does anyone have a scientific
th> explanation for why people kling to superstition?
FR> It would appear to be an artifact of the human
FR> specie's evolutional development.
th> What evidence do you know of for this conclusion?
Would you like some acedemic references? Susan Blackmore should be able
to provide details into the need to concoct myth as an artifact of the species'
development. Her publications should be in your local library.
~*~ You do realize that this echo has made me into this twisted, vile
fiend that now stands before you. - Drew Webber (HolySmoke) }:-}
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: THREE MYTHS JESUS
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:19:45
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29e6
PID: FM 2.02
BJ> bible Steve. I think you may need a little more praying time in
BJ> your day. Many people are diceived by things others have told them,
BJ> with out reading the bible for yourself, how can you make a
BJ> judgement? Brad God Bless!
as> DEFINITELY a troll.
Why would you say that? Because he sounds like so many of the other fundies
who have made the mistake of coming through here?
'Tell you what. I'll sign onto his system (if he has one) and check.
~*~ Live within the law or we'll kill you within the law
- Fredric Rice, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Tim Pauly
|Sub: Walking out on the lunacy
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:23:02
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29e7
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3120b6aa
PID: FM 2.02
tp> FYI my ex-wife walked out, and I am taking care of my children,
tp> which is something most so-called men in this country can't
TP> be bothered to do.
Was it your lunatic superstitions that your wife couldn't take any more?
That's usually the case if it wasn't over arguments about money.
~*~ I am telepathic. I am greatly feared by many who I have
demonstrated the ability to. They run like hell and stay
as far away from me as they can. - Pat Parrinello
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:26:07
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29e8
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31213cc0
PID: FM 2.02
with: Terry Liberty-Parker
dw> speaking of that putz, do you want to bet his name used to be just
dw> plain old Terry Parker, until he got swept up in this militia craze?
No bet here. When he and his club parade back and forth in front of government
buildings "arresting" everyone, I wonder what name he goes under. (He may
have simply added the name to escape being addressed as "toilet paper.")
dw>> you actually posted something useful. Amazing.
dw>> See what you can do if you put your mind to it?
FR> It's a sad state of affairs when even right-wing extremist
fr> lunatics find something in common with rational people.
dw> It is almost enough to make me wonder if the CDA us a *good*
dw> thing. If it pissed Parker off, it can't be all bad.
Um, interesting philosophy. }:-} "TP is against it so I'm for it." }:-}
~*~ I still wonder why natural selection has not yet found you and
corrected its great mistake. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: E-Mail: Telecom Bill
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:27:06
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29e9
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 120eb893
PID: FM 2.02
> Forwarded (from: CIVLIB) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
I wonder if you realize that had we been interested in reading the CIVLIB
forum, we would have elected to subscribe to it.
~*~ Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction
of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we
have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the
effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other
half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- Thomas Jefferson, "Notes on Virginia"
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andy Soell
|Sub: Hello, all!
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:28:05
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ea
PID: FM 2.02
as> From what I've seen scanning through the messages, many
as> of you seem very cynical of christians....why?
Perhaps you are not aware of the history that the Christanic death cult
has nor of what the cult is doing to soverign nations around the world.
~*~ New twist on the chicken or the egg question: which came
first, the bible or the bigot? -- ROB BURCHAM
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One Staal not three
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:29:13
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29eb
PID: FM 2.02
FR> You found some gods? Neat!
bj> Who is this Staal, everyone keeps quoting?
bj> Is he a friend of yours or something?
He's a member of your cult.
bj> NO, I didn't find some gods, I found only One God (Jesus)!
Yeah? When are you going to show them?
~*~ The Cross is the only hope for the world. - Charles Rollins
Only if we put more Christians on the things. - David Worrell
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:31:54
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ec
REPLY: 1:271/460 3121831e
PID: FM 2.02
km>>> Who conducted the Crusades?
km>>> Who conducted the Inquisitions?
km>>> Who conducted the Witch hunts?
FR>> Christians, clown. Perhaps you should actually learn the origins of
fr>> the Christanic death cult, Ken, then perhaps you could find the
fr>> courage to escape it. Hatred and bigotry is an ideological baseline
fr>> for Christianity -- as you well know. Stop pretending otherwise.
km>> OK, let's be more specific Fred, which church conducted
km>> the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the witch hunts?
FR> The Christanic death cult, silly. Weren't you paying attention? For
FR> centuries Christanics slaughtered millions upon millions of innocent
FR> people, sacrficing them to their death gods. This hatred and bigotry
FR> still exists today through the broad spectrum of Christanic brad names.
km> Sure I was, maybe I should make myself a little more specific?
Okay.
km> Which church conducted the Crusades, the
km> Inquisitions and the witch hunts?
As I have said (and as you well know) the Christian religion. Christianity
has been and continues to be the single worse tyranny ever inflicted upon
humanity. Want evidence:
And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
Witness what the Christanic death cult does to people with your own words.
~*~ ...just a bunch of crazy Atheist..(who will all burn in Hell)...
- Todd Johnson
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:33:51
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ed
REPLY: 1:271/460 3121831e
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Pretending Christanics aren't "true" Christanics is an evil lie that
FR> Christians are taught to mouth to themselves. They can't fool their
FR> intellectual superiors.
km> Only intellectual superior I have is God
You concocted your deity constructs to justify your actions and the activities
of your fellow death cultists. Those who recognize the origins of your
fictional constructs are your intellectual superiors, Ken, as well as your
moral and ethical superiors. We don't glibly demand we're going to kill
our own children when we start hearing voices:
And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
~*~ God does not like to be told he does not exist. - Richard Thorneycroft
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:35:06
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ee
REPLY: 1:271/460 3121831e
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Look at your own hatred, Ken, and note that the death
FR> cult you joined has a history that fits you.
km> I have no hatred Fred. And I have joined no death cult.
You have basically joined the KKK and then demanded you're not a racist
bigot. You know what the history of the Christanic death cult is and what
it continues to do to humanity around the world and yet you sit in the death
cult and glibly demand you're not responsible for what the cult does and
stands for.
~*~ You apparently want the whacko flowers and light conference
down the hall. Just follow the trail of drool, and check your
soul with Winters at the door. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it either, Ken
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:36:58
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ef
REPLY: 1:271/460 31218372
PID: FM 2.02
FR> You are not "temping" your deity constructs when it's _you_ who
fr> are instructed by your very own mythologies to drink. We know
fr> that you won't drink because you know you're a false Christian
fr> -- you only pretend to believe and you try to excuse your lack
fr> of belief as "temping" your deity constructs.
FR> Either drink it or admit you're a fraud.
km> Go read the Bible and tell me what Christ
km> said when someone asked him for a sign?
Go read your mythologies and tell me who lied when they claimed you could
drink up and not be harmed. You are trying to wiggle out of the fact that
YOU have been caught out as a false Christian who doesn't honestly believe.
Either drink up or admit you're a fraud.
~*~ In the beginning was the Word... - Steve Bedard
And the word is destroy the non-believers... - Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal probably also believes in McDowell
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:38:49
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f0
REPLY: 1:271/460 31218482
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
FR>> it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
FR>> the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
What utter evil the Christanic death cult is.
FR>> Witness why the Christanic death cult has the history it does.
km>> Want to post the rest of it Fred?
FR> That's all that needs to be said. Your willingness to murder your
fr> own son when you start hearing voices in your head is why
fr> Christianity has the history it does.
km> Sorry Fredric, but nowhere in the statement above
km> did I admit that I would sacrifice my own Son.
Yet further admission that you're a fraud. Either admit that you're fully
willing to murder your own children else admit that you're only pretending
to be a death cultist.
~*~ He who lives by the salad bar dies by the salad bar. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:39:51
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f1
REPLY: 1:271/460 3121853b
PID: FM 2.02
FR> You end up knowing that Adolf Hitler did exactly what Christianity has
FR> done to innocent people for the past 2,000 years. You know what the
FR> history of the Christanic death cult has been and you know that Adolf
FR> Hitler was simply one Christian among millions who did exactly what
FR> Christianity is designed to foment.
km> Shows how much you really know Fred
Which is why I'm intellectually superior to you. }:-}
Hitler was a Christian, Ken, sanctioned by nearly _all_ of European Christianity.
Get over it.
~*~ From beginning to end, there's one unfolding story of God's
plan of salivation for mankind. - Marguerite Kendall
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Homophobic bigots
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:40:59
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f2
REPLY: 1:271/460 31218615
PID: FM 2.02
fR>>>>> I am condemning no one. The homosexual who sexually practices
FR>>>>> his homosexuality condemns himself." - Jim Staal
FR>>>>> Are you just a liar or are you a liar for Jesus?
js>>>>> What has the above post to do with hatred and bigotry?
FR>>>> Perhaps your inability to see your own hatred and bigotry is
FR>>>> what your problem is. Certainly it's why the Christanic
FR>>>> death cult has the history it does.
km>>>> Wait a minute Fred, tell me exactly where
km>>>> does he say that he hates them?
FR> And even when I prove to you that your fellow Christian hates Jews you
FR> _still_ want to pretend that Christanic hatred expressed by Staal and
FR> yourself is justified.
km> Sorry Fred, you've yet to prove that my fellow Christians hated Jews.
I posted a lengthy speech from your fellow Christian Adolf Hitler where
he expresses the same hatred of Jews as you express of homosexuals.
Care to have your nose rubbed into the hurtful truth again?
~*~ Claiming to be "exhorted" on how to treat women and children based
upon the Bible is like being "exhorted" on how to treat Jews based
upon Mein Kampf. - David Rice
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Homophobic bigots
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:42:56
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f3
REPLY: 1:271/460 31218615
PID: FM 2.02
FR> bet you a buck you continue to make the same death cultist mistake.
km> Can't, don't belong to a death cult.
Perhaps you don't know the history of the Christanic death cult. I wonder
if I should suggest some history text books for your education.
km>> Then why Fred if Hitler did not hate the Jews,
km>> did he try to wipe them out?
FR> He did hate Jews, just as homophobic bigots like you hate fags. And
FR> people like you used to murder gays and would love to start up again
fr> today if they could, just like your fellow Christian Adolf Hitler.
km> I don't hate fags.
Sure you do, Ken, and you use your death cult fictional constructs to justify
your hatred. Like any fascist you demand that you love them and hate the
"sin" of homosexuality never mind that "sin" is a fictional artifact of
your death cult.
~*~ The argument from ignorance does not point to a goddess...it
points to ignorance. - Tyler A. Wunder
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Homophobic bigots
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:44:30
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f4
REPLY: 1:271/460 31218615
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Drink up, Ken, and do the world a small favor.
km> You place so much trust in it, you drink up.
I understand the physics and a bit of the biology involved in the drinking
of metabolic poisons so I know that your own mythologies prove themselves
a fraud.
And your lack of faith and courage needed to drink up also proves you a
fraud.
~*~ I have a recurring nightmare about being a patient in my own ER.
- Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Many Gods and Goddesses
|Date: 19 Feb 96 15:50:44
MSGID: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f5
PID: FM 2.02
bj> Maybe I should not have said that I feel sorry for you,
bj> because it is your chose not to believe in Jesus.
FR> And I'm sure that Wiccans pity you for not believing in the Goddess.
Well? One Wiccan stated that he doesn't pity you for your denial of the
Goddess. Why didn't you address this issue?
bj> I myself have a hard time understanding why people don't believe in
God!
FR> That's because you're ignorant and a superstitious fool incapable of
FR> reason. Since there is no evidence for the existance of any deities,
FR> the lack of belief in deities signifys reason.
bj> Fredric Fredric Fredric!
Please. Call me "Fred."
bj> How can you say that I am superstitious?
Were you lying when you claimed you believed in deity constructs?
bj> I am not afraid to walk under a later or
bj> cross the path of a black cat.
You live in fear of your unreachable Alpha Male construct and in fear of
the unavoidable eventuality of your own death. Toward that end you devised
superstitions which you pretend will save you.
bj> You say I have a lack of evidence to
bj> back up that there is only one God.
I said you lacked any evidence for the existance of any deities, not just
the pantheon of deity constructs Christanics mistakenly capitalize to try
to lend them some creedence over all the others.
bj> I have a book with around 1400 pages full of evidence.
Mythology is not evidence, silly cultist. Your book of mythologies
are frought with contradictions and scientific impossibilities. You have
a paper deity construct which you want to believe is evidence for the existance
of your Alpha Male deity construct.
Tell me, cultist: Homer's Iliad... Is that proof that Zeus and Odin exist?
bj> People like yourself must be kidding me,
bj> when you say you don't believe in Jesus?
People like yourself must be kidding when you say you don't believe in Zeus.
bj> Isa 45:22 (KJV)
You quote mythology and pretend to be makig an argument in your favor when
in fact it merely shows us that you're incapable of thinking rationally
for yourself.
bj> Don't wait to long Fredric to start looking for the truth.
It's too bad you gave up and accepted a lie.
~*~ The only reason a man would be for abortion is that he would know
that he wouldn't get "stuck" with the bills. - Kim Kelley
---
* Origin: Storm the halls of Pinkness take back your Slack! (1:102/890.666)
|From: Dan Oglesby
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 14 Feb 96 17:41:00
EID:46a1 204e8d20
MSGID: 1:2801/1@fidonet.org 65189f0f
Karen wrote to Brad thusly:
KD>.MSGID: 1:207/212 1bf1ba6d
KD>On (10 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Dan Ceppa...
KD>I prayed to god that he'd take me out of an abusive home when I still
KD>believed. He didn't.
Hello Karen. I don't mean to butt in here but if I may....
I've just recently joined here (doubt I will stay very long) and noticed
your posts.
First of all I have been a born again Christian for 25 years now. Have
went to church all of my 33 years of life.
With that in mind, let me say a few things please. I have seen similar
debates and have learned a great deal.
#1. I can NOT prove to you that God exists. Anything dealing with
the supernatural can not be dealt with "scientifically".
#2. I can NOT prove to you the Bible is the true written word of
God. I can show you answers to the "contradictions", show you great
wonders of the Bible and its authenticity and the writers involved. But
for you it won't prove anything. (NOTE: The mormon bible makes great
claims to historicity and there has not been one shred of evidence to
prove it correct. There are many historical references in the Bible
that have been proven correct.)
But if I may I would like to attempt to answer your question above. It
has presented itself as a great paradox for many years. If God is so
loving, and omnipotent, why didn't he change my circumstances?
It would take a great deal on my part to explain this but I will
condense it down in simple terms for brevity.
For justice to be done, God should remove all of the evil in the world.
At first glance that seems like a very good idea. But let us consider
it for a moment.
For God to remove all of the evil in the world, He would have to remove
a large amount of the population of the human race. Zappo! Everyone
who has done anything wrong in their life, (and I believe we all have at
one time or another) are now removed. But it doesn't stop there. God
would then have to remove those left, who are capable of evil.
Therefore, there has now been a total removal of the human race.
Debatably speaking, probably many other species of plants and animals
also.
Personally I don't like the above scenario. I also don't like any
scenario that involves abuse of any kind. But if He would have altered
the scenario in your circumstance, He would have been forced to do so
for everyone else, to the point of infinity.
The point is this. If that would have happened, then if we were heading
to a scenario that might have been dangerous for us, God would be
obligated to remove us from that scenario, to the point that we would
become total robots with God pushing all of the buttons,,,, and then we
would be claiming how God isn't fair, and we should be allowed to live
our own lives......etc.
Ain't much help, but it does make sense when you think about it.
Dano
...If I had a dime for every time I said If I had a dime.
* CMPQwk 1.42 9658 *
--- QScan/WC v1.18b / 01-0647
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|From: Richard Morrison
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Better educated
|Date: 15 Feb 96 13:29:00
EID:b701 204f6ba0
MSGID: 1:280/26 510b8fb4
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
FR>You asked what constitutes a better education, cultist. Your self
FR>is pretty much equal to a typical Creationist's.
Why not quit being a child and carry on a conversation without all the
name calling...?
FR>Something you don't have. You believe in deity constructs without
FR>evidence
Only evidence that *you* are willing to accept Fred.
FR>simply because you were indoctrinated into a cult when young
I was? Hum... That's interesting. Do I know you?...
FR> For that you need a better education than the one you
FR>think you had.
Maybe more like yours eh? Nah, no thanks. I don't think I would dig
sitting in front of a professor and just letting them pour in their philosophical
opinions without being challenged... You can lap it up if you want but
that's not being a critical thinker... (that's whether you agree or disagree,
you should still consider it.)
FR>rm> (btw: you told me to capitalize "greek" I guess with the letter
FR>
FR>And look at your unwillingness to do so yet again
Are you saying then when I quote something I should change the quote so
I then render a false quotation?
FR>rm> Maybe it was all of the above... believe what you will... <
FR>
FR>Oh I'm sure it was at least one of the above. No one seems to beco
FR>death cultist fundy without _some_ hard-luck story to drive them to
FR>lows.
Not everyone who has done drugs has a 'hard luck story' Fred. Go figure.
You are the one who is so compartmentalized in your thinking.
FR>Hopefully you realize that we're all here to _help_ you escape from
Well, I'll wait till you grow up and see if you feel the same way.
FR>By the way: Please come back to #holysmoke. We discussed your cas
FR>that you don't pose any threat to our organization and can possibly
yea right...
FR> Yet you must come back to #holysmoke and participate a
FR>little more in this forum before we can truely help you.
Is that "truely" or truly?
Your theatrics are nice Fred... I enjoy the humor and can use the smiles
it produces... thanks...
ttyl
in the service for HIS Service
Richard
* CMPQwk 1.42130
-=> It IS as bad as you think and they ARE out to get you. <
--- InterEcho 1.16
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|From: Richard Morrison
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 15 Feb 96 13:34:00
EID:5227 204f6c40
MSGID: 1:280/26 510b8fc5
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DC> RM> I don't think you answered the question Dan.
DC>
DC>You have never gotten around to my question.
????
in the service for HIS Service
Richard
* CMPQwk 1.42130
-=> >>>> ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI <<<< <
--- InterEcho 1.16
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 14 Feb 96 20:10:00
EID:a924 204ea140
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b23
TID: GE 1.11+
KD> I prayed to god that he'd take me out of an abusive home when I still
KD> believed. He didn't.
And the typical replies:
(1) You didn't believe enough
(2) A little suffering in THIS world doesn't really matter,
since you'll have ETERNITY in heaven
(3) God works in mysterious ways
In short, God doesn't give a rat's ass about your abuse.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.3H1e
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: One Staal
|Date: 14 Feb 96 20:22:00
EID:bf44 204ea2c0
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b24
TID: GE 1.11+
BK> DM> KD> Odin is just as valid a god as yours.
BK>
BK> DM> Especially on Wednesdays.
BK>
BK> Another good point. How many days of the week are named after
BK> *Christian* gods?:)
April Fool's Day?
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: American Atheists
|Date: 14 Feb 96 20:24:00
EID:ba48 204ea300
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b25
TID: GE 1.11+
BK> First, Robin, Madalyn, and Jon
BK> (maybe som emore family members) are still "missing", and have been
in
BK> said state for six months:(.
BK> ----------------------------
BK> That's all for now...I *really* wish he knew more about
BK> the former leaders' disappearance...I'm highly curious...
Maybe the Rapture came and they were 'taken up'.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 14 Feb 96 23:20:00
EID:023e 204eba80
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b26
TID: GE 1.11+
JH> Sort of... the Koran is written in first, second and third persons
JH> and frequently uses the plural forms. The general impression to an
JH> English speaking reader is that Allah suffers from one hell of a
JH> bad case of identity confusion.
Maybe his name should have been Staallah.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Religious Experience
|Date: 15 Feb 96 22:35:00
EID:5bec 204fb460
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b27
TID: GE 1.11+
PS> MH> 30 million dead unborn children is "progress?"
PS>
PS> RB> No, but allowing women to take control of their own bodies is
PS> RB> progress.
PS>
PS> Right around the anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, a lot of
PS> churches around here put up little white crosses to symbolize the
PS> abortions that take place in Memphis. I have often been tempted to
PS> make up large placards that say, "Think of how much worse it would
PS> be if the decision had gone the other way" and post them facing said
PS> churches.
You don't think the world would be a better place with
an additional 30 million unwanted babies?
Now, if we could just reverse the outcome on the millions
that God aborted, things would really be grand.
Maybe Pro-life should change it's name to Pro-overpopulation.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Bachelor: One who's footloose and fiancee free
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: flood
|Date: 15 Feb 96 22:47:00
EID:445a 204fb5e0
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b28
TID: GE 1.11+
KD> I agree with you. And these facts bug fundies no end. They keep
KD> expecting morality to be absolute.
Fortunately for gays, women and slaves; not everyone 'believes'
in an absolute morality.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Apparent: A large, old, bossy person who tortures youths
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: conservatives
|Date: 15 Feb 96 22:50:00
EID:28ba 204fb640
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b29
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> Keep in mind we're talking politics, not theology. Conservative and
MH> liberal mean different things in different contexts.
'Conservative' in the purest sense, means 'resistant to change'.
That definition applies to both politics and theology. Those
theists who AREN'T conservative are 'false theist scum'.
MH> Not if the control results in 30 million dead unborn children.
MH> Conservatives also favor allowing women to take control of their own
MH> bodies -- up to, but NOT including, abortion. *Most* conservatives
have
MH> no problem with women who use contraceptives, or choose to not have
MH> sex, in order to avoid having children. It's just that killing the
MH> children once they've been created is not a legitimate "choice."
First trimester fetuses are not 'children'. IMO, a woman
should have a 'window of choice' during the first half of
her pregnancy (and certainly, the first trimester). That's
also the way the Supreme Court sees it (and in this case,
they're right).
MH> Is it compassionate to allow the needy to become trapped in a
MH> self-perpetuating cycle of dependency? Conservatives favor helping
the
MH> truly needy, but not allowing those who could work to live off of other
MH> people's tax money.
It's a riot to witness how conservatives are 'trying to help
the needy by removing them from their cycle of dependency'.
Conservatives have a valid point here, but to cloak it in
'concern' for those on welfare is to laugh.
Why can't they just be truthful?..."We're ruthless, greedy
bastards who work hard for our money and those lazy, shiftless
leeches shouldn't get one dime."
MH> What if some students discover that their "truth" allows for dishonest
MH> business dealings and taking sexual advantage of the emotionally weak?
You mean "what if they grow up to be Republicans or evangelical
preachers"? That's the risk we take for freedom.
MH> Sure. However, I do not consider myself the sole indicator. About 40
MH> percent of evangelical Christians voted for Clinton in '92. Forty
MH> percent is a huge minority, hardly an insignificant fringe. And that's
MH> just among evangelicals, who tend to be more conservative than many
MH> other Christians.
If that is true (40 percent), I am hugely surprised.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Astronomer: A night watchman
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 16 Feb 96 00:41:00
EID:9269 20500520
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b2a
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate Christians
for
MH> using shareware offline readers for more than 30 days without
MH> registering.
MH>
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally hard
MH> on Frederick Leff.
MH>
MH> FL> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
MH>
MH> Of course, those atheists almost certainly *are* hypocrites.
We have faith that reason and empathy will lead Frederick
to see the error of his ways.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Astronomer: A night watchman
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Asmodeus times out!
|Date: 16 Feb 96 00:57:00
EID:0199 20500720
MSGID: 1:280/9 188e4b2b
TID: GE 1.11+
JH> Today is THE DAY.
JH> B t in the rare event that I act a y ho ie, I've p rchace
JH> thi rea y ifty b ack q i hro with a y ow ight i g bo
JH> t acro th fro t. A p r th i tr cti i my wi my b y i
JH> g i g t b vi p i t ma p c , packag p a br w
JH> wrapp r w th t a r t r a r by w y f h
JH> P rv c r m y c
JH> - x r r h c ry. My f r g p c
JH> w b h r ff c .
ROFLMAO!!!
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: Hi
|Date: 17 Feb 96 16:10:00
EID:36b9 20518140
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c23896c2
HP> KW> It can't be proven, and it can't be measured, but those of us that
use
HP> KW> it swear by it (literally).
HP>And precisely what evidence (keep the proof) do you have that distinguishes
HP>this "magick" from, say, simple delusion?
HP>If you have none, then sorry -- don't believe you.
Hector, I don't care if you don't believe. That's simply not a factor
for me. Sorry, no offence meant, but I never intended to convince you of
anything. I was asked a question. I answered it. And if you are
looking for special effects, go to ILM.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Even if you understood women, you'd never believe it!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: Tithe
|Date: 17 Feb 96 16:10:00
EID:4bba 20518140
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0143774b
RM>KW>RM>KW>tell me 'god' unless you are willing to offer evidence that
t
RM>KW>RM>KW>physically translated to heaven straight from the alter. Who
RM>KW>
RM>KW>RM>Actually it's from the ushers room.... <
RM>KW>
RM>KW>Okay. I suppose heaven can be found in the preacher's pockets.
RM>Which Preacher's Katherine? yes, certainly the TV preachers,,, they
beg for
RM>lots of money but from my observation, very few preachers make a lot
of
RM>money. Usually it's the ones that are on TV who are bilking people for
their
RM>money. I know there are others but sooner or later they make it to TV...<
RM>I think it's the TV that's Evil.... *grin*.
So if you got rid of TV you would get rid of the evil? I don't think
so, Richard. The church (under whatever name) has been enriching itself
all along. Take a look at the cathedrals of Europe. At the local
churches rearing their beautiful rooflines proud against the sky. Then
look at the homeless and mentally ill huddled under the overpasses (did
you know that once bishops had a terrible time with the unsightly poor
sheltering between the buttresses of cathedrals?). That's not TV,
Richard, that's real life. Find out how much your preachers robes and
suit cost, what the price of the choir stalls was, the printers bill for
the programs...
Then find out how many hungry children that exercise in pride would
have fed. If you belong to one of the really fancy denominations, this
will horrify you. Do you have any idea how much a silver chalice to
serve up your god's blood costs?
RM>btw: I know of some preachers who were independently wealthy before
becoming
RM>a preacher... I think that's kind of neat in it's own right.
Richard, I don't contest that there are a few good men there. But the
plate passing for man's pride just doesn't sit well with me.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Everything lost is found again, in a new form, in a new
way.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: hi
|Date: 17 Feb 96 16:10:00
EID:be39 20518140
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 601b0541
AM> Just out of curiosity, if you think Christ is no more that a fictitional
AM> character, why the concern with what Christians believe??
Because many of them insist on shoving Christ down our throats. From
the ones that want their mythology taught as science in the school, to
the ones that want the Constitution rewritten to reflect 'biblical law',
all the way down to the ones that will insist on banging on my own,
personal front door.
That includes the Jackass that tried to tell me that my partner
instructed him to 'save' me. Fat chance, my partner is my paired High
Priest.
If xtians would just go practise their religion in peace and
tolerance, many many of us would have no problem with them at all.
If...
---
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 17 Feb 96 16:10:00
EID:5445 20518140
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 124b015a
AM> Brian, its nice to see you read the bible, its a shame you don't know
what
AM> it means. You quoted instances when God was either smitting the enemies
AM> of Israel, or chastising His own people. Have your parents ever corrected
AM> you? Did it mean they didn't love. I let you know a little secret,
if they
AM> didn't correct you, it was because they didn't love you.
Sweetie, if one of us 'corrects' a child to death, we call it capital
murder and child abuse.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Find God? Why, is she missing?
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: CHRISTMAS
|Date: 17 Feb 96 16:10:00
EID:a1b3 20518140
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0f3efca3
JB>-=> Quoting David Worrell to Katherine Wintersnight <=-
JB> DW> Gee, thanks, Katherine. I suppose you'll brain me with that fryin'
pan
JB> DW> of yours too after I finish the pie, right? :)
JB>She wouldn't be that mean. If you've finished the pie, though, you may
JB>wish she had instead.
David, I didn't get to see the original of this.
However, Judith's right. I would be too interested in watching you
react to bother with the spider. ;) However, if you should ask, pretty
please, I just might be willing to put you out of your misery.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Flash! Energizer Bunny Arrested -- Charged with Battery!
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Re: Re: American Atheists
|Date: 17 Feb 96 17:45:37
EID:e0c0 20518da0
MSGID: 1:374/14 31265A91
PID: GenMsg 4.30 [0002]
Date: 17 Feb 96 22:45:37 UTC
In a message dated: 15 Feb 96, Brian Kolacy stated:
BK> No prob. I got an "official" letter today, forwarded from my
BK> previous address. 'Tis not much more informative, but I'd be happy
BK> to type it at you, if you would like;).
please do. i have received no communication of any kind.
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbak.rights@opus.global.org)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Anthony Anti-Semite 1/3
|Date: 16 Feb 96 08:24:34
EID:36fc 20504300
MSGID: 1:207/212 94d3fef3
On (14 Feb 96) Norbert Sykes wrote to Anthony Grigor-Scott...
NS> Incidently, what does being a staunch friend of Britain have to do
NS> with anything?
It's called British Israelism, Norbert, and it gave rise to our American
movement called Christian Identity. It is very important in that belief
system that Israel be England. They go through all sorts of fancy verbal
gymnastics to prove that Jews aren't the "Israel" of the Bible, present
day Brits are. They include America in this little fantasy, as well. The
belief started up a bit more than a hundred years ago, and is very
millenialist and vaguely racist.
USUALLY they aren't quite so obviously anti Semitic as this - they leave
that for the American Christian Identity groups.
... The sound of a SysOp reading mail
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 16 Feb 96 08:31:08
EID:6397 205043e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 0409d7d9
REPLY: 1:246/15 311C1574
On (15 Feb 96) Steve Wallis wrote to Judith Bandsma...
SW> Focus on the Family is a Christian organization that is praised for
SW> helping 1000's of souls come to Christ. What authority do you have to
SW> knock it. None at all. Take some time to think before you reply, after
all
SW> you are in controll arnt you Judith?
I knock it because it IS a Christian organization.
I knock it beause they supported a guy who claimed to cure gays but
instead ended up having sex with them.
... Watch the short jokes or I'll bite you on the ankle!
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Rodney Green
|Sub: Very much alive!
|Date: 16 Feb 96 08:34:36
EID:4f68 20504440
MSGID: 1:207/212 530d6a30
REPLY: 1:260/801.0 312404d6
On (15 Feb 96) Rodney Green wrote to Kerry Renaissance...
RG> Exactly what I expected to see from someone here. That's the problem
RG> with "religion". It causes people to argue. You see, God is alive,
RG> Jesus
RG> is very much alive in the hearts of TRUE believers everywhere. I'm
RG> certain
RG> you have run into people who would not match your perception of what
a
RG> Christian should be, I have too. I regret that greatly. A stumbling
RG> block
RG> that has and will cause unbelief in the only true joy and happiness,
a
RG> relationship with Jesus Christ, a personal God who cares about you.
The same argument could be had for Santa - he is alive in the hearts of
believers and parents everywhere.
That doesn't mean we can have a relationship with him.
... Ecky Ecky Ecky pTANG Bing whing prrn zhrrn-wup
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Anthony Anti-Semite 1/3
|Date: 16 Feb 96 19:39:54
EID:36fc 20509ce0
MSGID: 1:207/212 70ef2108
On (14 Feb 96) Norbert Sykes wrote to Anthony Grigor-Scott...
NS> Incidently, what does being a staunch friend of Britain have to do
NS> with anything?
It's called British Israelism, Norbert, and it gave rise to our American
movement called Christian Identity. It is very important in that belief
system that Israel be England. They go through all sorts of fancy verbal
gymnastics to prove that Jews aren't the "Israel" of the Bible, present
day Brits are. They include America in this little fantasy, as well. The
belief started up a bit more than a hundred years ago, and is very
millenialist and vaguely racist.
USUALLY they aren't quite so obviously anti Semitic as this - they leave
that for the American Christian Identity groups.
... "With a bit of a mind flip, you're into the time slip."
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 16 Feb 96 19:39:45
EID:6397 20509ce0
MSGID: 1:207/212 8d2d8a4a
On (15 Feb 96) Steve Wallis wrote to Judith Bandsma...
SW> Focus on the Family is a Christian organization that is praised for
SW> helping 1000's of souls come to Christ. What authority do you have to
SW> knock it. None at all. Take some time to think before you reply, after
all
SW> you are in controll arnt you Judith?
I knock it because it IS a Christian organization.
I knock it beause they supported a guy who claimed to cure gays but
instead ended up having sex with them.
... Shopping tip: Shoes are $.85 at bowling alleys.
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Rodney Green
|Sub: Very much alive!
|Date: 16 Feb 96 19:39:34
EID:4f68 20509ce0
MSGID: 1:207/212 fccae4a0
On (15 Feb 96) Rodney Green wrote to Kerry Renaissance...
RG> Exactly what I expected to see from someone here. That's the problem
RG> with "religion". It causes people to argue. You see, God is alive,
RG> Jesus
RG> is very much alive in the hearts of TRUE believers everywhere. I'm
RG> certain
RG> you have run into people who would not match your perception of what
a
RG> Christian should be, I have too. I regret that greatly. A stumbling
RG> block
RG> that has and will cause unbelief in the only true joy and happiness,
a
RG> relationship with Jesus Christ, a personal God who cares about you.
The same argument could be had for Santa - he is alive in the hearts of
believers and parents everywhere.
That doesn't mean we can have a relationship with him.
... Beware the fury of a patient man - Dryden
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:54:00
EID:38e0 204d7ec0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 121e3871
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to John Prewett <=-
SA> Any scientific source material on bats will tell you that bats are not
SA> birds, they are mammals.
JP> Modern language includes many distinctions
JP> which didn't exist some 4000 years ago.
LB> That is because modern science has DISCOVERED many of those
LB> distinctions, requiring a refinement of the language. But God would
LB> have know of those distinctions, since he made them, right? Ergo --
LB> the Bible is not the directly inspired word of God. It contains the
LB> mindset and outlook of the culture in which it was written.
I'm not sure I follow your ergo, there. Not that I think the Bible is
inerrant (far from it), but this is an extremely weak argument.
Dr. Seuss certainly is aware of ideas and distinctions that are much more
complex than those found in his books. But those books are aimed at a
certain audience, and those complex ideas and distinctions would not be
relevant to that audience.
The part of the Bible you are discussing here was aimed at a wandering
desert tribe that did not distinguish between bats and birds, and did not
posess the vocabulary to make that distinction. Under the circumstances,
the fact that the bible doesn't make such a distinction is pretty easy to
understand, regardless of whether the author was a member of that tribe
or
the almighty Creator Himself.
Whether the author was aware of the distinction or not is irrelevant.
The audience was unaware of it, so the distinction would naturally
be omitted (unless it was relevant to the point being made, which in this
case it was not). Ergo, this example does not provide any evidence that
the Bible is not the directly inspired word of God.
There are lots of examples of inaccuracies and contradictions in the
Bible, but this one (along with my favourite - the pi=3.00 thing) really
isn't one of them. Now, rabbits and cud, or Jesus ancestry, or which
was created first, men or plants, or ... like I said, there are lots of
them.
Take care.
... Don't get the idea that I'm knocking the American system. (Al Capone)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07áf (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: cashless society
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:18:07
EID:d4c6 204faa40
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 41d197e4
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3121d41b
On (14 Feb 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to David Worrell...
LB> All and David were killing time yakking about cashless society:
DW> 06 Feb 96 14:33, Dan A. Post wrote to David Worrell:
LB> DW>> How did you know they had cliterectomies, Dan? Was it something
LB> DW>> like, "Oh, hi Mr. Cashregister Repairman! By the way, I've had
a
LB> DW>> cliterectomy."? Explain it to me, Danny.
DP> Do you not understand the signifigance of the 'dot' in the centre of
DP> the forehead? My understanding is that this mark is placed there
DP> following the procedure, and these women had this mark. All you have
DP> to do is walk down the street of any major city in North America
DP> (except maybe in the southern US), and you will likely see someone
DP> with this mark in less than half an hour. I already explained this,
DP> are you saying that this isn't the case?
DW> I thought his answer would amuse some of you.
LB> Amuse?! I'm busy scraping my jaw off the floor!
Should we tell him it's the Hindus that have the little dot, and
the Muslims that have the clitorectomies, or should we let him
continue to make a complete ass of himself.
... Make coffee from freeze-dried fundies!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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50 3619/25 3637/1
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 16 Feb 96 07:34:03
EID:45cb 20503c40
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 3a2bed4c
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3121efc0
On (13 Feb 96) Don Martin wrote to Eric Hendrix...
DM> Eric Hendrix said "Thumb-sucking Fundy" to Preston Simpson, adding:
EH> I also want to toss out another thought.
DM> Only you would so label it.
EH> Ok, according to evolution, the world took billions of years
EH> to *evolve* to the point we are at right now. According to my
EH> Bible, it took six days, but who is to say what six days is,
EH> in the eyes of an eternal being? God's one day could be our
EH> billion years.
DM> If that eternal being were also omniscient and wished to
DM> communicate accurately to his people, he would probably
DM> "inspire" his writing staff to use words in the way people
DM> understood them. It is a cheap shot at biblical inerrancy to
DM> claim that the words therein can mean ANYthing.
There's a book written by a fellow who has two Ph.D's -- one in
law, the other in Jungian psychology. He wrote a wonderful book
called _The Mind of the Bible Believer_ in which he explains the
steps necessary to turn a rational human being into a fundy.
Having actually gone through the steps himself, and having a
well-trained ability to analyze the exact nature of the steps, his
book is a scathing descrption of the processes involved. One step
(number four or five, maybe) he calls "logocide." When this step
is complete, a person is convinced that many everyday words have
two meanings, one employed by the great unwashed, the other
employed by we insiders. And never the twain shall meet. So once
the dastardly deed has been done satisfactorily, "love" becomes
"contempt for what you are," "day" becomes "any period of time we
want it to be," and so forth.
So now YOU tell ME why a "day" can't be a billion years, if god
wants it to be? Does this tyrannical warmonger HAVE to plan by
YOUR measley rules?
... Coming soon from Microsoft: Mouse support for EDLIN!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Andy Soell
|Sub: Hello, all!
|Date: 16 Feb 96 07:41:22
EID:3114 20503d20
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 47a01e08
On (13 Feb 96) Andy Soell wrote to All...
AS> OK, I'm new here, so I thought I'd make a general introduction of
AS> myself.
AS> From what I've seen scanning through the messages, many of you seem
AS> very cynical of christians....why? There seems to be a stereotype (at
AS> least what I've read) that christians are stupid lazy people who are
AS> out of
AS> touch with the world and have closed their minds....mind if I ask why?
AS> Again, I just want to say now that as long as you at lea
When we get messages all the time telling us that a global flood
really, really happened; that dead people really, really do get up
and walk again; that Mary really, really was a virgin, we end up
with the impression that Christian are, indeed really, really mentally
and intellectually lazy people.
It ain't a stereotype; it's based on many, many data points, all of
which agree on certain things. The exceptions only try the rule,
they don't even come close to negating it.
... If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease. -- Clark Adams
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Robert Berndt
|Sub: Abe Lincoln
|Date: 16 Feb 96 08:05:38
EID:947a 205040a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 856a9b46
REPLY: 1:280/26 4e04d4b6
On (12 Feb 96) Robert Berndt wrote to All...
RB> To all who think that Abe Lincoln hated religion, you might find this
RB> interesting......
RB> A Proclamation
RB> From the President
RB> For a Day of Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer 1863
RB> In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand, and caused
RB> the seal of the United States to be affixed.
RB> By his excellency
RB> ABRAHAM LINCOLN
RB> President of the United States of America
I guess it's time somebody told you the facts of life. If you
read the first paragraph of that proclamation more carefully,
you'll see that it was AT THE REQUEST OF THE CONGRESS! It
was undoubtedly penned by a congressional aide at the behest
of his boss, a congressman. It is then nit-picked by other
congressional staffers and congressmen of a sympathetic mind,
then sent to the prez for his signature.
That's the way these things are done. The president simply
doesn't have the time nor the inclination for such petty
proclamations; he's got a country to run. So long as the
proclamation in question has been read by his staffers and
not found to contain anything that would be an outright
embarrassment to him, he'll sign any such proclamation that
crosses his desk. It simply isn't worth the loss of political
points to do anything else, and he may need somebody from the
other side of a political issue on his side in the future.
Having signed the proclamation, he knows that when that day
comes, he can call in at least one hostile vote, and perhaps
a dozen, depending on how many people were involved in the
instigation of the proclamation.
That's called "politics." It's the same now as it was then.
Politics is the art of compromise. So long as I can compromise
a personal conviction and obtain your personal vote in the future,
I'll do it. If I'm unable to stomach such trade-offs, I'm not
a politician, and I won't get elected dog catcher.
The proclamation in question didn't cost Lincoln a thing; the
taxpayers bought and paid for both the ink and the quill with
which he signed the document. They also paid for the parchment
on which it was written. All it cost him was a very slight
risk of writer's cramp for the few seconds it took him to affix
his signature to the document.
Or do you really think that the chippy-chaser we've got in the
White House now truly believes in family values when he agrees
to sign a blatantly unconstitutional bill that has great appeal
to the far right?
... Talk is cheap - Because supply exceeds demand.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Prewett
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 28 Jan 96 16:14:10
EID:0f8e 203c81c0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1ca3
FMPT 1012
=> Quoting John Prewett to Michael Hardy <=-
=> [------ lot's deleted for brevity -------]
MH> [----------------------------------------]
MH> Lynda has been terribly hard on Maria too.
MH> A few weeks ago, she apologized [---------]
That's the first I've heard of Lynda apologizing.
I'm gonna ignore all post for the next week or so,
to give time for the air to clear.
Lord help us all,...
"fundy" leaning and "liberal" leaning.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
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|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: NO I'M NOT DEAD
|Date: 28 Jan 96 16:38:20
EID:275a 203c84c0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1ca4
FMPT 1012
AS> Those of you who see this post, please respond. I am trying to
AS> determine who is receiving my posts...Jim and occasionally Judith and
AS> Roger and Dan aren't, Hector and JJ and Preston ARE, and I'm trying
to
AS> see what's going on. I ESPECIALLY want to hear from Larry Sites, whom
AS> I sent a multi part reply to the file he pulled off an athiest echo
AS> about the silliness of religious belief.
Yesterday you shoulda got a load of posts from me.
Sites said he was leaving for a while.
[said you were too mean to him
and he couldn't take the pain anymore ]
AS> ... "I think not," said Descartes; and promptly disappeared. ___ Blue
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 28 Jan 96 17:53:56
EID:da55 203c8ea0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1ca5
FMPT 1012
Gt> ........St. Francis is the easiest to filk,
Gt> I think he was a closet pagan)
That's what I keep trying to tell you guys !
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 29 Jan 96 16:18:16
EID:7392 203d8240
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1caa
FMPT 1012
DW> 24 Jan 96 15:42, John Prewett wrote to David Worrell:
DW> How often do you hear people say why does God allow such evil to exist?
DW> A points reached when God judges a land. He judges the opponents of
DW> Israel for some unspecified abomionations, yet he does not judge Nazi
DW> Germany? That's a pretty fucked up God you worship.
JP> Seen any pictures of 1945 Berlin ? Dresden ?
DW> Yep. God was nowhere to be seen. Plenty of Allied troops seemed to
DW> be hanging about the place, though. I wonder what they were there for?
JP> Nazi Germany lost. Israel was born, impetus in large measure
JP> supplied by the Nazi led holocaust. Many Germans of that generation
JP> reduced to poverty. Nazi became a synonym for evil. That's judgment.
DW> Nope. That's superior firepower. No God necessary.
DW> Do you have a picture of God walking around Dresden or Berlin in 1945?
Shame on me for taking the time to communicate with you.
I forgot you were a dope. WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: LYNDA GOES OVER...
|Date: 29 Jan 96 17:17:04
EID:0426 203d8a20
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cab
FMPT 1012
AS> antisemetic paranoia, and although I like John Prewitt more than
AS> Grigor-Scott, I make no secret that I think his anti-Catholicism
AS> is bigotry [-----------]
However, blaming generic "Christians" for deeds committed
by Roman [pope-led] Catholics is just fine with you.
JP> And I know that your inability to see [or admit seeing]
JP> the significance of a con-artist in Rome claiming to lead
JP> and RULE Jesus's Church
JP> [claim taken seriously by millions for centuries]
JP> shows your extreme spiritual retardation or corruption,...
AS> Fortunately, neither you and I can judge each other, John. Jesus does.
JP> but it's not my job to judge which problem you have.
AS> [--------] and his JFK-is-Antichrist idea is laughable.
JP> Demonstrating your pathetic blindness regarding God's Revelation,
JP> which you share with avowed heathens,....
JP> like most puffed up [with hot air] liberal "christians."
AS> If JFK had been the Antichrist, he would have used the Button and
AS> started an atomic war that put us all in the Stone Age,
AS> all the better to rule us with. Q.E.D.
Your above just demonstrates that your respect for and
understanding the Revelation's description of the final
"beast" is about equal to the average avowed heathens.
JP> [Your not agreeing about JFK is completely understandable, but if you
JP> knew much about and believed the Revelation, then you would be wise
JP> enough to know the JFK prediction is not really "laughable."
AS> Ludicrously unlikely? The phrase, "deceive the very elect" mean
AS> anything to you?
AS> Now, if someone SAINTED Kennedy, maybe you might have a case.
As a matter of fact, the mass media virtually "sainted" JFK.
Facts that would destroy another celebrity,
are, in JFK's case, given the best possible "spin."
Many people know the press gave JFK a "free ride."
Life magazine turned JFK the gangster family playboy
into America's favorite family man.
JP> It's "laughable" only to people
JP> who are retarded re the Revelation.
AS> I will simply wait upon the times, thanks. [----------]
If you're as smart as you think you are, you'll ease off
on the scornful attitude while you're waiting.
However, those forgiven much will love much.
AS> ......... I think the end of the world, when it comes, WILL come
AS>in a form totally unlooked for, yet consistent with the predictions...
World famous "terrible head wound" .......
World famous connection to the "Great Whore"
World famous, making "amazed the world" feasible
Christians should be able to identify the "G.W."
Christians should see that JFK is uniquely
"consistent with the predictions."
AS> ..... just as the Jews were too busy looking for the priest-king
AS> -David they were expecting to recognize Jesus for what He was.
Yep.
JP> IOW- to heathens and modern liberal "christians."
JP> You're presently on about the same level as a scripturally literate
JP> Jew of Jesus's generation who contended that Jesus's claim of
JP> fulfilling the "Messiah" prophetic description was "laughable."
AS> Possibly, very possibly.
AS> But we will have to see what happens, won't we?
To know for POSITIVE, yes.
JP> The Vatican obviously uniquely fulfills God's Revelation description
JP> of the "Great Whore,", but that fulfillment
JP> is invisible to man-pleasing modern protestants.
AS> Well, quite frankly, I think the Roman Empire
AS> and Roman Emperors are closer to the reality there. [-----]
Quite frankly, I think you think that because the truth
threatens your smug contentment with the status quo.
JP> Just like Jesus's fulfillment was invisible to status quo loving
JP> Israelites of that generation.
AS> Could be. [------------------]
Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him,
but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him,
lest they should be put out of the synagogue; John 12:42
"They will make you outcasts from the synagogue,
but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you
to think that he is offering service to God. John 16:2
Jesus's TRUTH will separate one from what is commonly known
as organized "christian" religion, liken to back then.
"For the word of God is living and active.
Sharper than any double-edged sword,
it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;
it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight.
Everything is uncovered and laid bare
before the eyes of him to whom we must give account." Heb. 4:12-13
JP> Re.Lynda- Maria Russell never launched any personal slanders to
JP> deserve the following from Lynda to heathens ]
[--------------------------------------------]
MR> [--------------------------------------------]
LB> Maria, have you seriously pondered anything of more importance than
LB> what shade of nailpolish will match your outfit in recent years?
AS> They certainly don't get along. And I think that is mainly because
AS> Lynda sees in Maria's attitudes the SAME sort of attitude that got her
AS> BEATEN and RAPED by her ex. If she takes it more personally than we
AS> do...well, maybe she has a reason to.
That is so very lame.
JP> ------------------------ SNIP --------------------------
MR> As an obedient wife I would have to listen. ...........
LB> Bwahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maria admits she has no life!!
AS> Read above again. 1. Maria's husband hypothetically implores Maria to
AS> get a life. 2. As an obedient wife she has to listen, in her view, and
AS> so, those words have never crossed her husband's lips...indicating
AS> that she does not have a life. (Because if those words had crossed her
AS> husband's lips, she would have a life.) 3. Lynda points out the
AS> obvious. It's Maria's own words which imply what Lynda pointed out.
Maria's cruel scorn for a Christian women who is proudly an
"obedient wife" is to be expected from scripture despising HEATHENS.
Your agreement with Lynda's heathenish analysis is noted.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 29 Jan 96 18:21:32
EID:f58f 203d92a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cac
FMPT 1012
AS> Agreed. I don't want to sound like John Prewitt,.......
JP> Not to worry. You'd need a direct miracle
JP> of enlightenment from God for that to happen.
AS> Well, I'm certain God could do a lot of enlightening to BOTH of us...
JP> I'm impressed when occasionally you manage merely to sound like a
JP> genuine Christian.
AS> Ahhh, but whether you think I am a "genuine Christian"
AS> is irrelevant. The point is whether JESUS thinks so. .......
AS> and certainly I have nothing against individual Catholics
AS> or the Roman Catholic Church as a whole,
JP> Never mind they tell the world that the ruler
JP> of Jesus's people is a man in Rome called the pope.
AS> If I disagree with them on that (and I do) it does not affect
AS> my opinion on their willingness to work for Christ's goals.
You're as silly as if a guy in WWII said it didn't matter
whether American soldiers obeyed Patton or obeyed Rommel.
AS> ...........................
AS> I find it VERY amusing that you are getting on to Lynda for
AS> "slandering" Christians when you yourself are doing so to the
AS> LARGEST GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO AVOW TO FOLLOW CHRIST IN THE WORLD!!!
Roman Catholics follow the pope.
YOU deny the papal claims are true, but
YOU are not honest enough to confess RC's
are an example of the "blind following the blind."
YOU are worried about the sensibilities of Roman Catholics.
Christians are seeking to persuade people to heed Jesus
and thereby avoid an eternity in a lake of fire.
AS> Get the two-by-four out of your eye, HYPOCRITE, .....
Get your head outa your ass, DUMMY.
AS> ..... before you talk about the speck in ours.
AS> And that is VERY Biblical, John. Just ask Jesus.
Adamantly contending against establishment religious leaders
for misrepresenting God and mistreating God's children
is also "VERY Biblical."
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Tsk...
|Date: 29 Jan 96 18:25:26
EID:a10e 203d9320
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cad
FMPT 1012
=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to John Prewett <=-
JB> I know just what a bigotted, hateful asshole you are.
JS> Can't these people see how hypocritical these statements are?
JS> [-----------------------------------------------------------]
I sometimes wonder which ones can and which ones honestly can't.
"The eye is the lamp of the body.
If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light.
But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness.
If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
Matt. 6:22-23
"blind lead the blind....."
Lord help us all. WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Questions
|Date: 29 Jan 96 20:17:34
EID:f9e7 203da220
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cb2
FMPT 1012
KDM> KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
[------------]
KW> ........ Quite simply, gays are
KW> the ones that are not burdened with their own children, so they
KW> have the ability to work for the whole social unit's good.
So they have less incentive to give a flip
about the good of the "social unit."
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: hi
|Date: 29 Jan 96 20:19:10
EID:c49b 203da260
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cb3
FMPT 1012
KW> [-----------]
KW> Satanists are usually considered to be Christians by the Pagans,
KW> [-----------]
Demonstrating the ignorance of Pagans.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: Re: FLASH!! Vatican sold to MS!!
|Date: 29 Jan 96 20:42:14
EID:f243 203da540
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cb4
FMPT 1012
SB> MICROSOFT Bids to Acquire Catholic Church
SB> By Hank Vorjes
SB> VATICAN CITY (AP) -- In a joint press conference in St. Peter's Square
SB> this morning, MICROSOFT Corp. and the Vatican announced that the
SB> Redmond software giant will acquire the Roman Catholic Church in
SB> exchange for an unspecified number of shares of MICROSOFT common stock.
[----------]
Nah,... I heard about this last year.
The deal fell through. Pope wanted a seat on the
board of directors, and Gates wouldn't go for it.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 29 Jan 96 20:55:02
EID:e57d 203da6e0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cb5
FMPT 1012
AM> Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Written by Josh McDowell. This man
AM> is a lawyer who originally set out to write a book to debunk
AM> Christianity. But was instead compelled to write in favor of it.
JH> BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! I have both volumes of 'Evidence' right
JH> here in my fat little hand and NO WHERE in either book does it say
JH> ANYTHING about McDowell being a lawyer, let alone his trying to
JH> "debunk Christianity".
I remember him stating [in TV interview] the part about starting
out seeking to debunk the bible, but I don't remember him saying
he was a lawyer. You have any reason to be sure he wasn't
trained to be a lawyer ? His argument and reasoning is lawyer-like.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Export...
|Date: 29 Jan 96 21:01:50
EID:a78f 203da820
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cb6
FMPT 1012
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to AL SCHROEDER <=-
-=>
JS>
JS>
SQ> Might be of help when he goes to India, as all he'd need to do is call
SQ> his board, download a packet, and read his mail from his laptop while
SQ> he's planning the overthrow of the government in Tibet. :)
SQ>
JS> What possible evil could Fredric be up to that would take his
JS> miserable hide to India. Don't they have enough problems over there?
Fred thinks India is great.
Sure, there's more starvation,....
but there's less Christian influence.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Zach Doyle
|Sub: What the hell
|Date: 29 Jan 96 21:12:32
EID:5003 203da980
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cb7
FMPT 1012
CH> "Sounds like he was the smart one. Wha'd you follow that act with?
I
CH> don't know. I wasn't there. There ain't a story that donesn't hve two
CH> sides to it. Either way, the fact that he is her ex, makes him the
CH> smart one..." - Jim Staal
CH>
JS> Actually the obvious implication (implication, heck; I came right out
JS> and said it) that he was the smart one for being her ex.
JS>
ZD> What the fuck give you the right to tell people that violence is an
ZD> intellegent matter?? What do you mean beating Gwenny was smart!!
I didn't see JS say "beating Gwenny was smart."
He said her ex was smart to be her "ex."
You
ZD> are a hypocritical, dishonerable fuck! Ever read your fairy tale
ZD> book?? You know the part about rules!!, Damn you Jim Staal I hope you
ZD> get stuck with yourself after you die, an atheist you, I'd call that
ZD> religious justice!!
Hmmmm, looks to me like you're the liar.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 29 Jan 96 21:28:22
EID:cac7 203dab80
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cb8
FMPT 1012
LB> John and Michael were killing time yakking about apostate:
MH> Lynda has been terribly hard on Maria too.
MH> A few weeks ago, she apologized ...........
I did not see that post.
Seeing it would have probably had
some effect on my subsequent posts.
I'm going to ignore all posts [except those addressed to me]
for the next week or so, just to let the air clear.
LB> But the last few messages to her were civil and
LB> attempted to discuss issues -- they went unanswered.
I haven't seen any from her to anybody for a while.
LB> No worries. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. I'll
LB> avoid judging you at all, if you'll do the same. I don't expect you
LB> to understand all of my motives, and can only ask you to trust that
I
LB> have what I consider to be good ones, and to assure you that, while
I
LB> am occasionally as blinded as is anyone regarding what they are, I DO
LB> engage in constant self-assessment, and as far as I am able to
LB> consciously determine, my actions and statements are deliberate rather
LB> than thoughtless. Lynda Bustilloz
LB> Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Jeezoids
|Date: 29 Jan 96 21:47:18
EID:8442 203dade0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cb9
FMPT 1012
JG> It is well documented in ACTS and in the history books. Go read and
JG> study. Try to find the FACTS and you will see that MANY of the Bible
JG> is backed up by history - even told of things only recently found.
KW> What the hell ARE you gibbering about? Learn to quote.
I hope you learn to avoid repeating a string
of about thirty post like you did today.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: archives
|Date: 29 Jan 96 22:25:34
EID:f7f2 203db320
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cba
FMPT 1012
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Coridon Henshaw <=-
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
MH> He raises a good point. Jim does play some games with aliases, and he
MH> does seem unstable sometimes. But other than his one cruel remark to
MH> Gwenny -- which he claims was misunderstood and I can see how it could
MH> have been -- I've never seen him strike out at anybody with venom, as
MH> Rudzinski did in the quotes above.
MH> He has been on the receiving end of some pretty nasty stuff, though.
MH> When Jim called someone a bitch, ........
Uhhhh, well, actually, I applied that label to a few persons.
[OK, OK, I thought it had a nice ring to it]
I don't think Jim Staal did.
MH> .......several people -- perhaps including you,
MH>I don't remember for sure -- jumped on it as evidence of misogyny.
MH>The argument was that he wouldn't have used a sex-specific
MH> insult if he didn't have something against the sex.
Politically correct insults,.....
What IS the world coming to.
MH> But Larry Sites recently called Maria Russell a "cunt," and so far
MH> as I know, I was the only person to call attention to that.
So THAT is what the little t/u/r/d infidel called her.
MH> I know you despise Maria, but the principle is the same -- why use a
MH> sex-specific insult if you don't have something against the sex?
MH> (Especially as "cunt" is a word commonly use to denigrate women,
MH> wheras "bitch" has enough currency to be taken in several different
MH> ways, some of them fairly benign.)
MH> ... Definition of Fundy: Changes frequently; call for current version.
I'd say the following is a pretty good HOLYSMOKE definition of "fundy."
--------------------- snip ----------------------------- Subject: The Ultimate
Shit List - Part 1. To: Zyad Allebban From: David Worrell Date: 1/25/96
23:52:12
[----]
Fundy, in its broadest possible sense, means one who is certain that a
god of some sort exists (whether that god is Jehovah, Allah, or some other
god).
[----]
--------------------- snip -----------------------------
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Shinehead O'Connor
|Date: 29 Jan 96 22:59:54
EID:9523 203db760
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cbb
FMPT 1012
=> Quoting Robert Jackson to J.j. Hitt <=-
DW> I'm suprised Sinead O'Connor hasn't been assassinated, though.
RJ> Gotta admit, I got a bit of a chuckle out of her stunt on SNL. Until
RJ> almost a day later, I had forgotten that there are a lot of people in
RJ> the world who think that was a big deal--it's just standard fare for
a
RJ> 'Smoker.
MH> I applauded the audience's stunned silence. While I understand
MH> Sine-Aid has serious disagreements with the Catholic Church,
MH> respect is still not entirely out of style -- even in New York.
The Roman Catholic cult has been getting far too much
respect for CENTURIES. I applaud Sinead O'Connor.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: The Ultimate Shit List - Part 1.
|Date: 29 Jan 96 23:05:14
EID:aa4b 203db8a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cbc
FMPT 1012
RS> Zayd Allebban wrote in a message to Hector Plasmic:
ZA> P.S.-- Thanks for not slamming me or using any cuss words when
ZA> replying-- you are the first to do so.
RS> I must warn you that you will be bombarded by cuss words. One would
RS> think that by posting such an innocent mention of thanks at the bottom
RS> of each of your messages you would get nothing but nice and fluffy
RS> words in return. That's not true here, as we are sick people.
RS> You are warned.
"..... we are sick people. You are warned." Ryan Shaw
I like it ! Definitely a keeper !
WBW, John
"..... we are sick people. You are warned." Ryan Shaw
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Christian control?
|Date: 29 Jan 96 23:08:12
EID:6d36 203db900
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cbd
FMPT 1012
RS> Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS>
JJ> Please explain what you mean. How does Christianity "politically
JJ> control the masses" or "rob them blind"?
JJ>
RS> The very nature of organized religion [which includes religions in
RS> addition to christianity] means that there is control involved. It's
RS> a way to control people, be it convincing them that god would want
RS> them to tithe or anything else.
RS>
JJ> Come on, Ryan, that does not begin to answer the question. To say
JJ> that Christianity is "politically control[ling] the masses" requires
JJ> that "Christianity" be some monolith that is directing the central
JJ> actions of the majority. Is that true?
JJ>
RS> I said _masses_, not majority. They are different.
RS>
RS> And don't tell me organized religion is not political. I may puke.
And, when you tell the people of organized religion
that they are "true Christians" then by doing that, you
strengthen the hand of the leaders of organized religion.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Blinded me with science...
|Date: 29 Jan 96 23:11:34
EID:888b 203db960
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cbe
FMPT 1012
RS> Jim Staal wrote in a message to Dave Ray:
JS> Well, Dave, I have tried to avoid this...but...if you have evidence
to
JS> support this claim, I would like to see it. First name the 'death
JS> cults' and then show from scripture that Christianity is an offshoot.
RS> You demanding evidence? Hahahahahahahaha!
So we agree asking heathens for evidence is a waste of time. Yes ?
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: the murdered nuns
|Date: 30 Jan 96 15:34:56
EID:111b 203e7c40
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cbf
FMPT 1012
xxx> So there are no christians that are murdered?
SB> I guess the two nuns in Waterville, Maine that got
SB> offed by a looney actually weren't *murdered*....
SB> hmmmmmmm...maybe they *jumped* in front of the gun, eh?
No gun used. They were beat to death
with a statue of the ever virgin Mary.
SB> Oh, yeah, they were CATHOLIC nuns so
SB> I guess they weren't CHRISTIANS, huh?
SB> [Prewett---take notice] :)
I wondered who would first mention my name
in connection with this murder.
Later on, just remember you started it.
Maybe the killer was a looney queer who finally
came unglued over the Vatican officially teaching
that queers are intrinsically fouled up.
[must I seek out the precise teaching ?]
I advise people to heed the NT Jesus,
and one thing for certain,
the killer wasn't heeding the NT Jesus.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Zayd Allebban
|Sub: questions
|Date: 30 Jan 96 15:59:50
EID:67b3 203e7f60
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc0
FMPT 1012
-> Zayd, dear, you can't walk out into the middle of a pie fight, and
-> declare yourself immune to meringue. If you can't take it in
-> Holysmoke, I would suggest that you do what the last Muslim did and
-> retreat fast with your tail between your legs.
ZA> I've got a plan ... I'm not gonna get involved in the bashing, but
ZA> I'll gladly answer any questions anyone may have about my religion.
Were you raised Moslem, or did you convert ?
If the latter, then were you raised in any identifiable
belief system/confessional group,... [identify which one],..
and, why did you convert ?
[What make you believe Mohammed was prophet from the Supreme God ?]
WBW, John
[I was raised Methodist, became atheist [16-26 age],
and then became believer in Jesus [now 46]].
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: creation
|Date: 31 Jan 96 08:40:58
EID:d9a9 203f4500
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc1
FMPT 1012
DW> 28 Jan 96 19:56, Michael Hardy wrote to David Worrell:
DW>
> BTW, has FIDO gone weird again, or has Maria taken a powder?
>
> Errr... If I had to guess, I'd say both. I haven't even seen any
>
MH> It's also possible that she got tired of being savaged by half the
MH> echo
MH>
DW> She got nothing that she didn't bring on herself, dipshit. I suppose
DW> you missed the post wherein she defended Lot's decision to offer up
DW> his daughters for gang-rape?
What were her EXACT words ? Thank you. WBW, John
MH> -- including some of her fellow Christians --
MH>
DW> "Some of her fellow Christians"? Why not just come out and say Lynda,
DW> Mikey?
DW>
DW> Apparently, "some of her fellow Christians" are able to see past
DW> Maria's "shiny, happy" facade into the vile pit of ooze that is her
DW> mind. Too bad you're not one of those "fellow Christians".
DW>
MH> for simply holding unpopular opinions. (I don't agree with many of her
MH> opinions either, but I'm not so childish as to resort to personal
MH> attacks in my disagreement.)
MH>
DW> There are times when a foil or rapier is the appropriate weapon. When
DW> the foil is ineffective, one must bring out the hammer and mace.
DW>
DW> ---
DW> * Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 31 Jan 96 12:26:54
EID:7fee 203f6340
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc2
FMPT 1012
JP> Your analysis of this story revealed your dishonesty.
KW> Your analysis of this story revealed your cold hearted misogyny.
KW> Prick.
Opinion noted.
Pig.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 31 Jan 96 12:41:04
EID:8c48 203f6520
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc3
FMPT 1012
JB> Yeah, he did that. And recently I saw where he had put in a post
JB> something on the order of 'where did I put that book of jokes about
JB> queers with AIDS'. Some may have thought it was his attempt at humor.
JB> I don't.
JP> Wasn't meant to be humorous at all.
JP> Rather it was a fitting reply to Fred Rice's cruel comment
JP> to a person who mentioned his dying father.
JP> Which you would have noticed if you were not such a stupid cow.
KW> Humm, let's see. Christians are supposed to act in a Christ like
KW> manner. I would then suppose that the character of Christ can be
KW> extrapolated from the word of his followers.
KW> Christ would make cruel jokes about a horrible disease?
KW> Christ went around calling women cows?
KW> And you honestly think that I should worship this abomination?
I honestly think I pity lost, hell-bound people
like you and Bandsma,
but,
I'm not going to suck up to lost, hell-bound,
vicious swill fountains like you and Bandsma.
Like I'd pity a rabid dog, but I wouldn't pet it.
KW> You are sub-human.
KW> Well, Christians, he's yours.
KW> Anybody want to try to defend this pile of slime?
You hold me contempt. Fine. I hold you in contempt.
Nothing much left to discuss.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 31 Jan 96 12:42:20
EID:f3a1 203f6540
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc4
FMPT 1012
JP> And Everyfuckingbody in the ECHO has seen some evidence for years. Too
JP> bad so many fuckingbodies in the ECHO are too dense to recognize
JP> evidence when it is presented to them.
KW> John, dear, fuckingbodies are notorious for not seeing anything going
KW> on around them. Try it someday. You'll see.
JP> Kate, darling, I've forgotten more about what's
JP> going on than you ever learned.
KW> Pre-wit, sweetling, I can easily believe that you have forgotten
KW> everything you had ever known.
You'd easily believe anything except God's truth.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Larry Sites
|Date: 31 Jan 96 19:05:22
EID:b555 203f98a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc5
FMPT 1012
SB> Maria still [in this day and age] believes that poor people are lazy.
MG> Some are. Let's not forget that Maria's "sin"
MG> is not one of conservatism but of overgeneralization.
IOW- Maria's allged "sin" is-
What several notorious and beloved HOLYSMOKE heathens
routinely and blatantly do regarding "Christians."
Oh well, WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 31 Jan 96 19:30:06
EID:2787 203f9bc0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc6
FMPT 1012
=> Quoting Michael Hardy to All <=- Quoting Larry Sites to Maria Russell
LS> Make you feel good, cunt? How come the dick that's your head isn't
LS> here instead of you?
MH> To all non-Christians: He's[sic] one of yours.
DR> "If the older generation cannot get accustomed to us, we shall take
DR> their children away from them and rear them as needful for the
DR> Fatherland." -- Hitler, June 18, 1933
DR> "When an opponent declares, 'I will not come over to your side,'
DR> I calmly say, 'Your child belongs to us already ... What are you?
DR> You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp.
DR> In a short time they will know nothing but the new community."
DR>-- Hitler, Nov. 6, 1933
DR> To all Christians: he's one of yours.
Nah, Hitler was one of Satan's. Like you presently are.
YOUR [the common] labeling is irrelevant.
WBW, John
DR> ... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics
DR> (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 31 Jan 96 20:13:50
EID:7590 203fa1a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc7
FMPT 1012
KW> Whomever of you is currently in control:
=> Quoting John Prewett to Michael Hardy <=-
JP> Maybe you can distinguish her attitude from that of a typical heathen,
JP> but I don't see any significant difference.
JS> Thankyou for pointing out this (and the rest of your message) to
JS> Michael. It is one thing to agree to disagree, but as I said to Lynda,
JS> something totally different to ridicule one to the enemy for it.
KW> Even when you are being ridiculous?
It all seems ridiculous to a dirt dumb heathen.
WBW, JOhn
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
|Date: 31 Jan 96 20:25:50
EID:3c93 203fa320
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc8
FMPT 1012
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, J.J. Hitt mumbled "THE 10
PS> COMMANDMENTS"
KW> willed fool, that I flatter only because if I didn't build up your ego
KW> you'd collapse into a puddle of warm jello'.
JH> Yes. The stereotype of Southerners being constitutional liars is
JH> nothing less than an accurate description. It's not limited to the
JH> female, they're all like that.
PS> Thanks a lot, guys.
KW> Oh, now, Preston, you are *so* smart , I just know that you
KW> can understand all of this. Why, it just took me years and
KW> years to figure something that you understood right off forward>. Now, what does this little button here do? You
KW> are just so clever about such things . I could never
KW> keep track of all those buttons here to push on people.
KW> I'd like to see Good Ol' Bubba pull it off, though.
Good Ol' Bubba probably knows how to parlay fixing Suzy's car
[or pickup] into a night of bucolic frolic.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 31 Jan 96 20:50:40
EID:7fee 203fa640
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc9
FMPT 1012
RV> Verse 25 describes the hours long gang rape of the poor concubine.
RV> The Bible gives not one hint of passion or concern for the raped girl.
JP> NOT TRUE.
JP> The Bible goes on to say the act was condemned so strongly,
JP> a war was fought to punish the whole tribe of the rapers.
RV> Considering that many people believe that every word in the Bible
RV> comes from God, it should not surprise anyone why people still use
RV> these verses to justify such atrocities.
KW> Learn to read, John.
Personal insult noted.
KW> Ronald was expressing disgust at the attitude
KW> that the property owner's rights were enough to go to war over,
KW> but that the poor concubine didn't merit a word of concern.
The deed provoked a war.
The deed WAS taken seriously and condemned as wicked.
In other ancient cultures [cultures that pagans like you admire]
what happened to that woman wouldn't have caused a stir unless
she belonged to [yea, that's the way it was] a very powerful man.
We, being some 4000 years further down the human rights and
political correctness road than the author, have no right
to condemn the author for failing to verbalize "concern"
in the way a modern author would probably do.
KW> She just got kicked, and hacked apart by her angered owner.
KW> I agree with Ronald. This is disgusting,
KW> and anyone who sees anything holy in this is also disgusting.
Certainly what happened to the woman was disgusting.
What is also disgusting is your insination that only
pagan bitches like you see that it was disgusting.
JP> Your analysis of this story revealed your dishonesty.
KW> Your analysis of this story revealed your cold hearted misogyny.
KW> Prick.
Gee, pagan bitch insults me. Boo hoo.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 31 Jan 96 21:11:12
EID:8c48 203fa960
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cca
FMPT 1012
JB> Yeah, he did that. And recently I saw where he had put in a post
JB> something on the order of 'where did I put that book of jokes about
JB> queers with AIDS'. Some may have thought it was his attempt at humor.
JB> I don't.
JP> Wasn't meant to be humorous at all.
JP> Rather it was a fitting reply to Fred Rice's cruel comment
JP> to a person who mentioned his dying father.
JP> Which you would have noticed if you were not such a stupid cow.
KW> Humm, let's see.
KW> Christians are supposed to act in a Christ like manner.
So, you admit that you expect Christians to
adhere to higher standards than nonChristians.
Thereby de facto conceding the NT Christ sets
a higher moral example than anything pagan.
KW> I would then suppose that the character of Christ
KW> can be extrapolated from the word of his followers.
Showing your stupidity. The character of Christ must
be extrapolated from the recorded word and deed of Christ.
You say Lynda B. is a Christian, and you like her.
You say I'm a Christian, and you dispise me.
Fine. But now you are forced [if you were rational]
to deduce Christ's character based NOT by my word,
nor by Lyndas', nor by the word and deed of the
rest of His flawed avowed followers
BUT RATHER BY THE RECORD OF HIS OWN WORD AND DEED.
Christ warned there would be wolves in sheeps clothing.
For all you know, I'm an anti-christ just trying to make
Christ look bad so you'll reject Christ and go to hell.
So don't be a fool. Forget me,... heed Christ.
Or take the chance that I am fooling you,
and I really want you to reject Christ so you will go to hell.
Now tell me again,.... am I a Christian or not ?
Do you really know if I rate the label ?
Bet you won't give a straight answer.
KW> Christ would make cruel jokes about a horrible disease?
KW> Christ went around calling women cows?
KW> And you honestly think that I should worship this abomination?
Am I so powerful over weak little you,
that you would condemn an innocent person
[Christ] due to my flawed character ?
KW> You are sub-human.
KW> Well, Christians, he's yours.
KW> Anybody want to try to defend this pile of slime?
KW> On the average, people are mean.
Cept you and me, and I'm beginning to wonder about you.
Have a nice day, pagan bitch.
Oh,... and repent, too.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: John Edney
|Sub: ?
|Date: 31 Jan 96 21:38:50
EID:777a 203facc0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1ccb
FMPT 1012
JE> what is this echo about?
Mostly religious and antireligious 'free for all'
'no hold barred' d/e/b/a/t/e foodfight.
Jump on in if you feel froggy. WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Steve Macdonald
|Sub: FIRST TIME ONLINE AND NEE
|Date: 31 Jan 96 21:48:06
EID:34c7 203fae00
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1ccc
FMPT 1012
SM> HI ANYONE. MY NAME IS STEVE , I'M 28, AND HAVE A NEW COMPUTER.
Hi Steve. That is wonderful. We are thrilled for you.
My name is John. I'm 48, and I have an old computer.
[I hate you]
SM> I DON'T KNOW HOW TO GET AROUND HERE, SO ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED.
Stop using all capitalization. It's considered "shouting."
You're at HOLYSMOKE, a forum that is sent around the world.
You should seek computer help/advice from a LOCAL source.
SM> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, AND GOD BLESS YOU.
WBW, John
ps - Just kidding about hating you. God bless U2.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 31 Jan 96 21:59:06
EID:f8c8 203faf60
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1ccd
FMPT 1012
AS> Okay. What would you like to know? Or discuss or dispute?
AS> [------]
SS> I dispute the christian claim that a god somehow gently ushers
SS> christians over the threshold of death. This is not what I have
SS> observed. I have observed some people dying hard deaths and some
SS> dying relatively peaceful deaths. I can assertain no casue and effect
SS> relationship by the person being or not being religious.
SS> What are your comments? How do atheists die?
SS> THE SAME WAY AS CHRISTIANS. These are my observations.
AS> I wish I could find a way to argue with you on this one, because half
AS> the fun of this echo is a good argument. But I agree. Some atheists
AS> die serene deaths. Isaac Asimov died wanting to be Isaac Asimov to the
AS> end, and thought he knew there was no afterlife. Some theists die
AS> extremely bitter deaths, of excrutiating pain and die in the throes
of
AS> despair at the pain. Of course, they aren't the ONLY ones. "My God,
my
AS> God, why have you forsaken me!" was the terrible cry at Golgotha. "I
AS> thirst..." He moaned. Jesus didn't die serenely. He died a messy,
AS> miserable death.
Be that as it may, Jesus death impressed a Roman soldier
in a way that shows Jesus's death wasn't the "same"
as the death of most men. By a long shot.
WBW, John
And when the centurion, which stood over against him,
saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost,
he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. Mark 15:39
famous last words-
"So I said, "so why doncha PROVE to me you're the angel of death" ?
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
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|From: John Prewett
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 31 Jan 96 22:37:30
EID:4871 203fb4a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cce
FMPT 1012
Styx to Burcham
RB> It's amazing how you can be so right about theology
RB> and so wrong about politics.
SA> If people would stop succumbing to believing the liberalist media in
SA> the same manner that fundies believe bible babblers, perhaps they
SA> would learn the truth about Newt & Co.
SA> [----- lot's of good stuff deleted for brevity ---]
RB> Liberalism has made some mistakes, but it is responsible
RB> for nearly all of the social progress of this century.
SA> PROGRESS? Examine our fucked up welfare system. Gee. Looks very
SA> similar to CHRISTIAN programs like "missions" and church soup
SA> kitchens, doesn't it?
Just for the record, the much maligned Paul said
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you,
that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 2Thess. 3:10
SA> Wow. Maybe Christians are liberals after all, since they
SA> seem to share a common bond, eh? Hopefully by this, you can see
SA> how ludicrous your reasoning appears to me. At least Christians
SA> VOLUNTEER to feed/help the "unfortunate". Liberalist welfare programs
SA> REWARD people for not working - even when they can work, but won't.
Furthermore, the "good Samaritan" of Jesus's parable
took his OWN money and his OWN time to help the man in need.
in contrast to seeking to get government to do anything.
WBW, John
Prov. 20:4 The sluggard will not plow by reason of the cold;
therefore shall he beg in harvest, and have nothing.
ps- Nothing more hinders the "conservative" political movement
than the Vatican created abortion "issue."
Henry Hyde is an example of a conservative
that is so much a servant of the Vatican
that I honestly consider him a traitor
to the interest of the United States.
[Hyde nixed welfare reduction because he claimed
welfare reduction would cause increased abortion]
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
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|From: John Prewett
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: [1/2] COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 17 Feb 96 09:00:20
EID:81eb 20514800
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cd6
FMPT 1012
RB> [---------------------------]
RB> Keep in mind that only INTRA-tribal head bashing is considered
RB> emphatically wrong. Bashing heads outside the tribe is often
RB> acceptable and even encouraged (even by the biblical god).[--------]
Re- "the biblical god"
The OT reveals God directing the Hebrews to initially take
a small piece of land. Within a few decades, under Solomon,
Israel reached it's peak of size and power.
For the rest of it's history, Israel was NEVER a conquering nation
such as Assyria or Babylonia. Rather, Israel was generaly
under attack. After the initial taking of the tiny land of Israel,
from the time of Solomon forward, "the biblical god" did NOT
ever again order the Hebrews to go to war.
FURTHERMORE, and more directly to your above incorrect assertion-
The Hebrew law SPECIFICALLY AND EXPLICITLY forbade mistreatment
of foreigners who came to Israel.
WBW, John
The following is repeated many times. The Law of NO OTHER
nation shows such concern for strangers [and widows and orphans].
"And you shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him,
for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Ex. 22:21
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: I'M BACK
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:19:34
EID:b958 20516260
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 9903955f
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cd793778
On (16 Feb 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Lynda Bustilloz...
LB> KW> Fine, roll up your sleeves and get over to the sink. I'm in the
mood
LB> KW> to do something french. A real buttercream, perhaps? And if I
have to
LB> KW> cook without shoes, you can stand there and wash dishes barefooted.
KW> LB>Psst! Katherine! Just for clarification, WHERE was that guy
KW> standing when LB>you brained him with the frying pan?!
KW> Beside the table. He knocked me into the counter next to the stove,
KW> and turned to walk out of the room.
Not only was he abusive, he was an out-and-out fool! Only somebody
without a brain in his head would deck a person then turn his back
on them!
... Your sacred cow is my next Double Whopper with cheese.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: YHWH
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:26:47
EID:ce02 20516340
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 f956e77a
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 312429b1
On (15 Feb 96) Sue Alexander wrote to Michael Hardy...
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Shelby Sherman <=-
SA> Besides, you have to change the culture with it...the main
SA> reason it spread so far was the burial rituals of the culture
SA> of the people involved necessitating certain burial rituals
SA> (which I do not know details of) that allowed the
SA> transmission through the body fluids. Try changing a culture
SA> lately?
My fundy friend has my copy of _The Coming Plauge_, so I'm going
from my rather faulty memory, but I think those rituals involved
bleeding -- a practice that one public health professional from
the States managed to get a small group of native Africans to
suspend for the duration of one outbreak in one small outback
community. But getting it permanently stopped on a continent-wide
basis would be quite another story.
... Vultures only fly with carrion luggage.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:37:00
EID:2427 205164a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d93d5270
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 1249d280
On (16 Feb 96) Ryan Shaw wrote to Michael Hardy...
RS> Michael Hardy wrote in a message to All:
RS> I've chosen to come back to this after further research.
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally
MH> hard on Frederick Leff.
RS> The message was posted from Styx's system, so perhaps you should get
RS> on Styx for this. BUT...
FL> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
MH> Of course, those atheists almost certainly *are* hypocrites.
RS> After looking over the last 5,000 messages that I hold here and
RS> checking the kludges of the messages in question I've determined that
RS> Styx doesn't use GEdit on his system, in fact the TAGLINE stays the
RS> same no matter which date it was posted on.
RS> You took the fundy bait hook, line, and sinker.
RS> How does it feel, Mickey?
Mikey is reaching for straws, anyway. If Styx had an evaluation
copy that he was supposed to register after 30 days, and he spent
a week on vacation after he installed it, he would be right on
the line on day 37. And, given that he could have mailed in his
registration paperwork and check and not received the floppy back
that contains the registered version. . . .
Of course, all this misses the obvious; 37 days is one helluva
long way from 200-some-odd, and Styx isn't bragging about having
an absolute frame of reference for his morals, as the fundies do.
So long as a person doesn't brag about having the moral high-road,
I see no double standard involved, even if Styx has been using
unregistered software for two THOUSAND days.
That's not to say, of course, that it would be morally proper,
just that I don't see a double standard.
... If you pull the wings off a fly, does it become a walk?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: information
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:44:11
EID:b511 20516580
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 26f9cb99
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 623f1b78
On (16 Feb 96) Martin Goldberg wrote to Michael Hardy...
MH> Should there be hardcore pornography on broadcast television
MH> at 4 in the afternoon?
MG> Harcore porn should be available to adults. there should be
MG> no censorship of it other than to insure that all the
MG> participants are adults and no one gets hurt.
MG> Children, should not be allowed to watch porn. It is the
MG> responsibility of the parents to see to this if they feel the
MG> need is there. I am in favor of making electronic devices
MG> available but not mandatory in these cases.
This whole issue is wasted on me. We make laws that proclaim it is
illegal to sell cigarets to people under age 18. We know that
people who are younger than 18 are getting cigarets somewhere; we
see them smoking the damned things as they peddle their bicycles
down the street in front of our homes. Do we even entertain a
thought that cigarets ought to be outlawed because of this? Hell
no! We blame the merchants who dont better police their cigaret
machines, who sell directly to under-age people, and the parents
who don't do what they can to stop the kids from gaining access to
the smelly things.
Why should out attitude toward porn be any different? Do we really
think that prohibition in this area will be any more successful in
keeping porn out of the hands of children than it was in keeping
booze out of the stomachs of adults during THAT prohibition? Are
we really that naive?
Anybody who owns a camera can make porn. Porn is easier to make
than booze was in the 20's, yet we are dumb enough to think that
we can control the manufacture and dissemination of it? Hold onto
your hats; it's going to be a bumpy ride, until common sense
prevails over hysteria.
... CONgress (n.) - Opposite of PROgress
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 16 Feb 96 07:17:00
EID:9481 20503a20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644F2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> BK> What do you beleive with regards to reincarnation?
MH> I don't believe in reincarnation, but I did in a previous life. :)
BK> Not bad:) Seriously tho, do you?
No. What would be the point? Religions which believe in reincarnation
typically believe that we are supposed to learn something new and
become better people each time around, or suffer the karmic
repercussions of our past life. Well, simple obsevation will show you
people aren't especially better now than they ever were.
... Dyslexics of the world untie!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 16 Feb 96 20:30:00
EID:575d 2050a3c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644F3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Yet, for your purposes in
MH> picking up this argument, you have to assume that people in a.d. 40
MH> accepted an even more farfetched story
BK> Well, at least you agree with me:) I'll have to keep this one for the
BK> quote file.
Fine. It's a strong point for my case. If something is farfetched, yet
people who are in a position to know for sure believe it to be the
case, that's good evidence that it is.
MH> about someone who had just
MH>died in a.d. 33, who lived in the same place they did and that they
MH>may have even known personally.
BK> How many people did? Are you sure that the authors even believed it?
I have no reason to think they didn't. Do you?
MH> BK> Really? Do tell...your scholars (funny how they always seem to
MH> BK> show up when you need them) state that the Jesus story is
MH> BK> absolutley original, and unlike the other myths of the day?
BK> ^^^^^^^^^^^
MH> Is that what I said? No, it isn't. Of course there may be some vague
MH> similarities -- Jesus had two eyes, Mithra had two eyes ... Jesus
MH>had one liver, Mithra had one liver -- but they really don't amount
MH>to much when examined closely.
BK> I was not limiting my comments to Mithra only, Mike. And I think
BK> you've not examined the myth of Mithra closely, if at all. Or if you
BK> have, your conveniently ignoring it...Just keep chanting "it's true,
BK> it's true" to yourself.
I have examined the Mithra myth closely, because I had this exact same
argument with Fred Rice two years ago. I found any claimed parallels to
be tenuous at best.
MH> Whenever there are strong parallels between Christianity and some
MH> mystery religion, the evidence always indicates that Christianity
MH>was around first, and any borrowing of ideas went the opposite
MH>direction from what you'd like to think.
BK> Tell us about this evidence, Mike. Document it, at least. You mean
BK> to tell me that Mithraism, a religion that predated x-tianty by
BK> hundreds of years, borrowed from it? What about all the Greco-Roman
BK> myths? And the egyptian myths themselves? Luaghable...next you'll
BK> tell me that Christianity borrowed from Judaism!
Mithraism predates Christianity, but doesn't really have much
similarity to it.
I'm not going to do an exhaustive documentation of all mystery
religions which apparently borrowed from Christianity. YOU are making
the claim that Christianity borrowed, so YOU provide the evidence that
it did. Give me a specific case with evidence, and then I'll take it
apart for you. Until then, I remind you of the cardinal rule of debate,
which atheists ruthlessly enforce against theists here: The one who
makes the claim provides the evidence.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: death
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:50:00
EID:4f03 20516640
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644F4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I can find no plausible explanation for this belief
BK> [SNAP!] Psst! You don't have to *explain* belief, Mike. Try
BK> explaining David Koresh's belief of divinity, and his followers belief
BK> in him as well. Maybe there's "evidence" for it?:)
Koresh's "divinity" is based only on his claim to be divine, and his
follower's belief that he was telling the truth. Christianity is based
on *events* that happened and were witnessed. This is something that
sets Jesus apart from every other "divine" figure, including Koresh,
Mohammed or Buddha.
BK> On the other hand, we have the *other* religions
BK> of the world. *Clearly* unevidenced, else Mikey would believe in
BK> them. I guess that makes Moslems, Jews, Pagans, et al., a bunch of
BK> silly fucks, while *you* are truly to be respected for your
BK> intelligent choice.
Well, Jews are right until they get to the J-question.
By the way, if you think you're insulting me by calling me Mikey, I
just want you to know that my mother and two of my good friends call me
that. Also, some try to call me Mickey, but that's the name I went by
-- voluntarily -- in college, so several old friends still call me that
as well.
You can continue to use such names if you like; just understand that
they come across as affectionate nicknames to me, not insults. :)
... Are you here to serve the truth, or twist the truth to serve you?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: treatise
|Date: 16 Feb 96 07:37:00
EID:3f85 20503ca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644F5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>being allowed much of the sin and evil
MH>that would ever be committed in the world to be placed on his
MH>shoulders.
BK> Good! I can sin as much as I like, and still go to heaven. Seems
BK> Christ took care of my account a long time ago. I can even commit the
BK> ultimate "sin" by being an atheist...fantastic. Either that, or your
BK> god didn't such a good job...
See the word "much" in what I wrote above? Christ willingly took away
the sin that people who follow him commit -- that's what God's grace is
about. But people who follow him commit sin grudgingly and after
fighting temptation, NOT gleefully as you express. And people who
follow him aren't atheists.
God did a perfect job, but he still respects the freedom he gave you.
You choose whether to follow him or not. But don't expect to receive
his favor if you defy his desires.
MH> That is an immeasureable sacrifice. The amount of time he
MH>spent suffering physical pain is absolutely irrelevant.
BK> Sorry Mike, such an ephemeral "sacrifice" won't cut it here...Spending
BK> time on a cross is the *only* thing relevant. Kind of unimpressive,
BK> when you consider the pain *other* humans have gone through.
Since you still miss the point entirely after having it explained to
you, I leave you to your fate.
... The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 16 Feb 96 07:42:00
EID:575d 20503d40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644F6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> However, no one would believe it today. Yet, for your purposes in
MH> picking up this argument, you have to assume that people [not many!]
MH>in a.d. 40
MH> accepted an even more farfetched story about someone who had just
MH>died in a.d. 33, who lived in the same place they did and that they
MH>may have even known personally.
BK> But Michael, Ronald Reagan is a well known, well documented person in
BK> an age of Enlightenment. Jesus, in his day, was not well known at
BK> all...When we add the fact that Paul started the religion in a place
BK> *other* than where Jesus lived, where *no one* had heard of him, in
a
BK> time where such supernatural events were fairly commonplace, and your
BK> analogy fails miserably...Try again?
Evidence, please, that Paul "started" Christianity, as opposed to
helping spread what already existed?
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:51:00
EID:575d 20516660
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644F7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> ROFL! Because every piece of available evidence corroborates the
MH>fact that they did, and none refutes it. Nero was burning Christians
MH>by the early 60s a.d., so obviously people had believed it for some
MH>time before then.
>>Mark, Gospel according to Saint, second book of the NEW TESTAMENT,
BK> simplest and earliest of the GOSPELS (probably A.D. c.70), used as a
BK> source by MATTHEW and LUKE. It may be divided into the beginning of
BK> the ministry of JESUS (1.1-1.13), his first two years of preaching
BK> (1.14- 6.56), his third year (7-13), and the Passion and RESURRECTION
BK> (14-16).
BK> The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia is licensed from Columbia University
BK> Press. Copyright - 1995 by Columbia University Press. All rights
BK> reserved.<<
BK> "Earliest of the Gospels (probably A.D. c70)" Wow...Nero was burning
BK> Christians, even before they had the first Gospel written...pretty
BK> stunning Mike.
I didn't realize you were this ignorant. The gospel stories spread
orally for some time before they were written down. However, Paul was
writing his letters by the late 40s. And he was writing them to
*existing* communities of believers that he had already visited as a
missionary, so the belief and some of his missionary travels obviously
predates his writing.
He spent some time with Peter and the other apostles after his
conversion and before his missionary travels. And he persecuted
Christians before his conversion. Each of these points takes us closer
in time to the resurrection.
That leaves us maybe five years AT MOST for these fantastic legends (as
you would characterize them) to grow up around a real peson who had
lived nearby.
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: dates
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:52:00
EID:e05f 20516680
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644F8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
BK> The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia is licensed from Columbia University
BK> Press. Copyright - 1995 by Columbia University Press. All rights
BK> reserved.<<
BK> Hmmm...the math I come up with says the first Gospel was written 40-44
BK> years after Jesus' death. Must be the new math, eh? It *certainly*
BK> puts you in the category of liberal daters (with regards to when your
BK> myths were written)
It doesn't put me in that group. Dating the gospels is conjecture, not
provable fact. Scholars can examine the available evidence and offer
educated guesses, but they are just guesses.
I would date all three synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) before
a.d. 60 -- for reasons which I can detail if you like -- with John
being an unknown. Whenever John was written, though, I think it was
written by an eyewitness or the student of an eyewitness -- again for
reasons I can detail if you want.
I have my opinion -- based on analyzing the arguments used by various
scholars to defend their positions -- and I can defend my opinion. I
can't, however, prove I'm right, and neither can anyone else. That's
why your saying that a given gospel must have been written in a given
year because some authority says so demonstrates that you really
haven't thought the matter through.
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: All
|Sub: double standard alert
|Date: 16 Feb 96 20:36:00
EID:0ae5 2050a480
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644F9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Fredric Rice <=-
SA> (As an aside, I'd laugh like a hyaena if it were found Swaggart
SA> contracted AIDS from his little plaything. It would just be such
SA> poetic justice ..)
If a Christian expressed glee over the prospect of someone contracting
AIDS, the response would be .... what?
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: love
|Date: 16 Feb 96 20:22:00
EID:e344 2050a2c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644FA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Andrew Masten <=-
SA> You'll have a hard time getting ANYONE to believe that people CHOOSE
SA> to burn in eternal hellfire. He/it would need to place them there.
SA> That's not love.
From "The First Time" by U2
My father is a rich man
He wears a rich man's clothes
He gave me the keys to his kingdom coming
Gave me a cup of gold
He said "I have many mansions
And there are many rooms to see."
But I left by the back door
And I threw away the key
That's it, Styx. That's how it works. And if you don't get it yet, I
guess you aren't going to.
... There are few atheists on deathbeds. Those few are true fools.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: spontaneous abortion
|Date: 16 Feb 96 20:26:00
EID:6f9f 2050a340
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644FB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Eric Hendrix <=-
PS> And a third to a half of all "unborn" infants die before they can be
PS> born. Guess God's a bigger killer of children than humanity ever can
PS> be.
EH> I dis-agree. If you look deeper into the facts, I'd bet you will
EH> find that the majority of those unborn infants have mothers who abuse
EH> drugs, alcohol, smoke, etc... while pregnant.
LB> Wrong answer. Most spontaneous abortions occur so early in the
LB> pregnancy that the woman doesn't even know she IS pregnant -- and
LB> sometimes doesn't even know she's aborted; only that she's had a
LB> particularly heavy and painful menstrual period. They occur for any
LB> number of reasons -- failure to properly attach to the uterine wall,
a
LB> malformation of the fertilized egg that
LB> makes it completely unviable, etc, etc, etc. It's completely natural
LB> and not brought on by ANYTHING the woman has done -- although kind
LB> hearted souls like you are not above making her FEEL like it's their
LB> fault.
Except that smoking, drinking to excess and using drugs when you're not
ill *are* self-destructive behaviors. The woman doesn't have to know
she's pregnant to damage the fetus, while doing things that also damage
herself.
The point isn't that it's the woman's fault ... the point is that God
isn't aborting babies, as Preston alleged.
As I read the response, Eric wasn't blaming the woman so much as he
was absolving God (as if God needs our absolution).
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: haggis vs. food
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:26:00
EID:2e91 20515b40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644FC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> According to Monty Python's Big Red Book, "The Scottish people consider
MH> haggis not only a delicacy, but actually fit for human consumption."
KW> Well, you *can* eat it. But this Scot would have to be pretty hungry
KW> now that I'm old enough not to be bullied over it. As for Scots
KW> delicacies, ever had stoved potatoes? Or venison mincemeat?
MH> Can't say as I have. Are they good?
SA> Having come in late, I'll just interject a bit here about haggis.
SA> I haven't actually had any myself, but I _have_ eaten tripe. It
SA> doesn't really taste like anything - the flavour seems to come
SA> from whatever sauce you cook it in. I didn't find the flavour too
SA> bad .. it was the _texture_ that threw me. I presume the same
SA> holds true for haggis since it, like tripe, is bits of the GI
SA> tract of ruminants.
SA> As for the texture, it's just really .. soft yet chewy - a lot
SA> like snails. Needless to say, I get suckered into trying the
SA> local cuisine easily when I travel. The gods help me if I should
SA> ever wind up in Papua New Guinea.
Ick.
... Science asks: How? Philosophy asks: Why? And ferrets don't care much.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: American Atheists
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:27:00
EID:ea51 20515b60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644FD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> BK> Robin, Madalyn, and Jon (maybe som emore family members) are
MH> BK> still "missing", and have been in said state for six months:(.
MH> They don't have a prayer. :)
BK> Actually, on Saturday Night Live, when I first heard of their
BK> disappearance, the joke was "The family is asking people not to pray
BK> for them".:)
Yeah, I saw that. The sad thing is, it was funny AND true.
MH> BK> much money, with very little use). That's all for now...I
MH> BK> *really* wish he knew more about the former leaders'
MH> BK> disappearance...I'm highly curious...
MH> The rapture happened, and they were the only ones who made it. :-D
BK> Heheh:)
Maybe it was the anti-rapture. :)
... You can write a good country song if you have an ex to grind.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:28:00
EID:d100 20515b80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644FE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
M H> Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate Christians
MH>for using shareware offline readers for more than 30 days without
MH> registering.
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally
MH>hard on Frederick Leff.
BK> 'Tis a different situation, actually. Fred doesn't have a book that
BK> tells him what his ethics should be. That old 'Thous shalt not steal"
BK> thing wouldn't be as effective.
Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
... I'm not religious. I just love the Lord.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:29:00
EID:4cb1 20515ba0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892644FF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Michael Hardy <=-
> Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate
> Christians for using shareware offline readers for more
> than 30 days without registering.
> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down
> equally hard on Frederick Leff.
SA> The joke's on you, Michael. That message originated on my board,
SA> (not Fred's) and Gedit is not running on my board. Notice that
SA> the message (when it appeared) always said 37 days.
SA> Originally, it said:
SA> ...This message from Gedit has been annoying people for 2,687 days.
SA> (and other variations thereof)
If you say so. Although it seems to me the joke's equally on Fred
(unless he willingly allows this) as it makes him look like a shareware
thief.
> ... We have our standards here on Holy Smoke ... at least two.
SA> That would mean double, right?
SA> I haven't seen atheists claiming that the act of using shareware
SA> beyond cutoff date is wrong. What I've seen is atheists pointing
SA> out that doing so is a violation of the fundy commandment which
SA> deals with theft. The only double standard is therefor, that of
SA> the fundy who bootlegs.
Then you admit, along with Brian Kolacy, that there is no reason for
atheists to be moral, other than their personal choice to be.
Two confirmations of what I've always thought (and what I and other
Christians have been publicly berated for daring to say.) I'll note
that down.
... Behaviorial Research: Pulling habits out of rats.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: suff'rin
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:46:00
EID:d75d 205165c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264500
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> But it's not. What's significant is WHAT God did -- taking all the
sin
MH> of everyone who ever threw themselves on God's mercy, or ever would,
MH> into his holy, righteous self, and expiating it -- taking it on himself
MH> so that we could be free of it.
KD> Huh? This is the worst circular logic I have ever heard. If you need
KD> to forgive someone, you do so. No sacrifice is necessary.
For a perfectly holy God to forgive sin, something has to give. God
chose to bear the burden himself for those who would allow him to.
It is an act of extreme mercy and love. Nothing circular about it.
I don't think of it as *punishment* which God poured out on Jesus. I
think of it rather as God taking sin into himself and purging it. God
suffered in doing this because sin to holiness is like acid on the
skin. But the suffering was a consequence of his opening the door to
grace, not gratuitous pain.
That's why the length of time isn't important -- it isn't punishment or
retribution.
... Jesus saves. The rest of us rack up credit card debt.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: fax
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:41:00
EID:231e 20515d20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264501
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Staal <=-
JS> ML> This "Holy Writ" also says that bats are birds.
JS> JS> Evidence to support this claim?
JS> ML> Your own big book of fairy tales: Leviticus 11:13, 19;
JS> ML> Deuteronomy 14:11, 18.
JS> ML> It does not. It says they ARE birds. Here's a zoological
JS> ML> news flash, you retard. Bats are mammals.
JS>Yea. but where does it say that the Bible says they aren't? That would
JS>be a contradiction. Just cause man choses to call them something else
JS>has no bearing on whether or not the Bible is correct in doing so...
KS> You insipid moron, it is contradicting FACTS.
KS> I am beginning to think you are a troll. Nobody could possibly
KS> be as stupid as you appear to be.
Jim is being insipid here, although I suspect it's intentional.
However, the Bible in its original Hebrew, is not incorrect. The word
usually translated "birds" actually simply refers to flying vertebrates
(as opposed to insects.) Apparently the English-language translators,
trying to find a single word to express this, figured "bird" was the
closest they could get.
You can continue insisting it's an error if you like, but if you do,
you'll be contradicting facts.
Excuse me, FACTS.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:46:00
EID:3414 20515dc0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264502
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Alan Hess to John Prewett <=-
MH>> 3. Why would a Christian want the Bible replaced with his own book?
AH>> Ask the men who wrote Testament II, and replaced the Bible with it.
JP> "Replaced" ? Hmmmmmm,
JP> I've seen a lot of books combining Testaments I AND II.
AH> So why don't Christians keep kosher, among other things? Because they
AH> wrote a new book, and kept the parts they liked of the old one.
Because the Old Covenant had served its purpose and God saw it was time
to institute a new one.
Several Old Testament prophecies speak of a Redeemer who will come,
and once he arrives, things will change. Jesus is that one.
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Blinded me with science..
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:57:00
EID:cbaa 20515f20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264503
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting The Raven to Ryan Shaw <=-
TR> "This just in from our Moscow bureau..."
JS> Correct. Problem? I hear this 'death cult' stuff all the time and
JS> yet not one atheist/pagan can come up with one shred of evidence to
JS> support it.
RS> We have presented you with plenty of evidence. You just chose to
RS> _ignore_ it.
TR> Jeez... who does *that* sound like...
Hector, in his discussions with Al. (With Hector guilty of what Jim is
accused of.)
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: CENSUS
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:58:00
EID:3bda 20515f40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264504
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Dan Ceppa <=-
MH>> people would have to leave their homes. This was a society when most
MH>> people lived and died in their hometowns. Most likely, only a few
MH>> people would ever have to make the trip.
MH>> How do you know? Were you there? Granted, there was not an actual
MH>> star in the literal sense. But could an omnipotent God not have
MH>> created a point of light -- which people of the time would describe
as
MH>> a star -- and use it as a guide?
DC> Seems that the Chinese has a rather developed astronomy at the time,
DC> as well as many other groups in the middle east. Strange, they
DC> fail to mention that "point of light".
HP> ROFL! And Mikey wonders why he's called a fundy. He happens to be
a
HP> literalist, as his clinging to every detail of this silly virgin birth
HP> myth demonstrates.
I never said the "star" would be visible to everyone. I'm talking about
a flashlight and Dan's talking about a searchlight. What I'm saying is
that God might have created a beacon just for the Magi, not a new star
in the sky for all the world to see.
And, I'm not INSISTING that it's true. I fully admit the story of the
virgin birth could be wholly or partly mythical. I just don't see any
point in insisting it MUST be.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:01:00
EID:2bfc 20516020
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264505
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Roland <=-
RO>In Genesis 1:24 God created all animals on the earth..and later that
day
he
RO>created man. In his image...
KS> However in Gen 2:15-19 it says the animals were created afterward...
KS> perhaps you consider this a minor bungle...?
Does it? To me, it looks like Genesis 1 is an overview and Genesis 2 is
a closer look at the creation of man. In that case, the animals aren't
created after man, but simply not mentioned right away; the author
assumes you've absorbed the order of things from the first chapter, and
now turns to the most important point in more detail.
Another point: Genesis 1 uses the word *bara*, which means to create.
Genesis 2 uses the word *yatsar*, which means to form or shape. One
implies the initial creation, the other implies the shaping of
something which already exists -- and may even refer to evolution.
A third point: Many translations render the verb in Genesis 2:19 as
"had formed," which suggests the truth of what said in the first point
-- the animals had already been created, and Genesis 2 simply doesn't
mention them right away since they are not the primary focus.
... Atheist reaching orgasm: "Oh chance! Oh random!!!! Yes!! Yes!!!"
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: arthur christ
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:55:00
EID:ad60 205166e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264506
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Who really existed in the sixth century, Arthurius, dux bellorum, a
AS>sort of celtic commander-in-chief in times of war. Sir John Rhys,
AS>among others, has established it beyond reasonable doubt. True, his
AS>legendry got outrageous, and many of the source documents were
AS>written many centuries after the original happened, when you would
AS>expect additions to accrue. (Merlin,interestingly enough, appears to
AS>have been a poet who lived fifty years away from Arthur's time, in
AS>another court.)
BK> Well, I stand corrected. Still, it works well as a comparison (if not
BK> even better).
Not really. It actually reinforces the case for Jesus. While many
legends grew up around the real Arthur, they took centuries to develop.
No one who knew the real Arthur or lived at the same time in the
same place would have believed them.
The stories about Jesus -- based on the fact that Paul was writing to
already established communities of believers by the late 40s, and the
Jerusalem church had existed for some time before Paul's conversion --
had no more than half a decade, and probably less, to develop and be
believed by people who would have known better if they weren't true.
... The more I chew on, the less I swallow.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:13:00
EID:81d6 205161a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264507
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Steve Wallis to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> FoF is a well-heeled hate group who, if they called themselves what
JB> they
JB> really are, are no better than the KKK. They HATE...gays, women,
JB> blacks,
JB> Hispanics, orientals, other religions. All in the name of Jesus, of
JB> course.
JB>
That is a really extreme, and untrue, statement. I've never seen a
shred of evidence that FoF *hates* anybody. They disagree with certain
moral ideas, but they don't -- that I've seen -- *hate* the people who
hold those ideas. I've never seen anything to suggest racism.
Do you have any evidence at all to support what you're saying, or are
you simply exhibiting your own bigotry? Your statement above is hate
speech, unless you have something to back it up.
... I'm not religious. I just love the Lord.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Frank Pierce
|Sub: Re: hello!
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:16:00
EID:f1e8 20516200
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264508
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Frank Pierce <=-
FP>David, at the risk of getting into an unwinnable debate between you
FP>and Ken, I'd venture I'd agree with you.
FP>
FP>I might well believe in the God of our bible if the text followed
FP>closely with our twentieth-century concepts of man's place in the
FP>Universe. I'd sit back, view the book with wonder, and tell myself
FP>that it had to be divinely inspired, for truly no group of writers
Why do you assume "our twentieth-century concepts" are right? Perhaps
people in the 24th century will laugh at how wrong we were.
In any case, the Bible is not concerned with our physical place in the
universe, but our spiritual place in God's creation. In fact, it does
speak of man's relative physical insignificance in the grand scheme of
things:
Job 7:17-18 "What is man that you make so much of him, that you give
him so much attention, that you examine him every morning and test
him every moment?"
Psalm 8:3-4: "When I consider your heavens, the work of your
fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what
is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for
him?"
Psalm 144:3-4: "O LORD, what is man that you care for him, the son
of man that you think of him? Man is like a breath; his days are
like a fleeting shadow."
Ecclesiastes 6:12: "For who knows what is good for a man in life,
during the few and meaningless days he passes through like a shadow?
Who can tell him what will happen under the sun after he is gone?"
But it also makes clear that we are important because God created us to
be. Our physical place in the universe isn't the point. (In fact, one
might suspect God intentionally made us small and the universe so vast
so that as we discovered more about it -- and realized how vast and old
it is -- we would have an even deeper appreciation for the infinity and
eternity of God. If our mind boggles at a 10-billion-year-old universe,
how much more awesome is an eternal God?
... Jesus saves. The rest of us rack up credit card debt.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Him
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:24:00
EID:1c8b 20516300
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264509
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to David Worrell <=-
LB> Lynda and David were killing time yakking about Him:
DW>> damn! My catty-bitch meter just exploded! > plastic out of my face>;)
LB> It was a JOKE, David! Didn't you see the smiley? ;)
... The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: politics
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:25:00
EID:8f46 20516320
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8926450A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Scot Bear <=-
SA> "I don't care whether you are disappointed with me or not."
SA> Your opinion of me may have changed since you learned of my
SA> differences of political affiliation, but I am still very much
SA> the same person as before.
SA> For someone who protests homophobic bigotry, you hypocritically
SA> exhibit many of the same tendencies toward my political orientation.
SA> You acted as though I were a friend of yours until such time as
SA> you learned of my conservative political ideologies. Much the same
SA> as a homophobe would until learning that his friend is gay.
SA> Well, my being a republican should have no more bearing upon being
SA> friends... than what your being gay should. They're simply a part
SA> of who and what we are.
Gosh, Styx ... now, how many times have we Christians been told that
animosity toward Christians is not the same as bigotry because
religious affiliation is a choice, while race and sex are not?
The double standard has never been so obvious. How's it feel to be on
the receiving end?
... "Hatred of Christians isn't bigotry." -- Dan Ceppa
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:27:00
EID:f424 20516360
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8926450B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Styx Allum <=-
LB> I understand your point, but there is a difference -- what Scot does
LB> in the privacy of his own home has no affect on anyone, other than
LB> possibly subjecting
LB> them to a bit of queasiness if they insist on trying to picture it.
LB> Assumably,
LB> your views are not just opinions, but something you vote on -- and
LB> that vote affects all of us. This is no different then Mike not only
LB> personally finding
LB> abortion to be wrong, but voting in an attempt to force that opinion
LB> on our country -- and taking a lot of grief in here for expressing it.
And, like Styx, (my new conservative buddy, although I know he's still
pro-choice) not feeling the least bit apologetic.
... I'm not religious. I just love the Lord.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:30:00
EID:8698 205163c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8926450C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Norbert Sykes <=-
NS> they differentiate between them? In the passage cited, there is a
NS> listing of a lot of different flying things...if there was a word
NS> that just denoted flying things, then who put in all the extra
NS> names, etc.? I'm willing to bet a year off of Jim Staal's life
MM> It seems that it would not be too difficult to resolve this question
MM> if one went to the library, got a Hebrew translation with English
MM> available... A Triaglot if possible and simply looked the passage in
MM> question up and saw what Hebrew words were used for flying things.
According to Strong's Hebrew Concordance, the Hebrew word in question
can be translated as larger creatures that fly. (As opposed to
insects.) Apparently, English translators felt "bird" was the closest
they could come to expressing the concept in one word.
MM> I requested this echo some months ago, and have been patiently
MM> awaiting debate. I have simply been dissappointed at how little effort
MM> is being placed in writing or supporting most of the posts. I have seen
MM> people who claim to be from religions based on love and peace resort
to
MM> nothing short of hate mongering and name calling.
I'm willng to discuss anything. Unless you've been posting under
another name, I haven't seen you here before. Yes, many people here --
on all theological sides -- seem to be incapable of discussing issues.
They prefer flames to debate. But there are a few that make it worth
sticking around.
... Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:34:00
EID:c4fe 20516440
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8926450D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to John Prewett <=-
JP> Would you believe there are people
JP> so dumb they think God is dead.
JP> In spite of evidence.
KDM> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
Why "non-biblical?" Whether you want to admit it or not, the gospels
and letters of Paul *are* historical documents from the time. The fact
that they were written by believers in the cause would not disqualify
them as historical source documents if they were about any other person
or subject. They would simply need to be read with the author's bias in
mind.
So why apply this unfairly strict standard in this case?
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Re: The Light
|Date: 17 Feb 96 12:36:00
EID:e983 20516480
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8926450E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Alan Hess to John Prewett <=-
AH>> Hebrew Scripture is the ONLY Scripture.
JP> Wonderful.
JP> Are you a believer in the God revealed in Hebrew scripture ?
AH> I'm not a believer. However, the Original Testament is considered the
AH> Word of God by believers - the add-on testaments are the words of men.
AH> As such, they're no different than any other stories written by men.
Christians would disagree with you. So why do you claim to hold this
position if you don't believe in the God revealed in Hebrew scripture?
You should be saying that both testaments are words of men.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 17 Feb 96 20:19:00
EID:f760 2051a260
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8926450F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
KW> Well, Gramm is out of your hair, at least. I got a bitter laugh out
KW> of the nerve it took for him to make that comment about 'listening to
KW> the voters'. Clinton still looks like the best bet, to me. I have
to
KW> much self respect to vote for any of the republicans. Hell, the last
KW> time I voted for a repulican't was when Ford ran.
I was 14 when Ford ran.
KW> youth and idealism (clutching my brand new voters registration). The
KW> GOP platform of greed and fear literally nauseates me.
Aw, it is not either. That's simplistic propaganda. Both parties have
their good points and weak points, but I reject the notion that the
Republical platform includes either greed or fear. Some individual
Republicans may suffer from those vices -- just as some Democrats do --
but it's not the party philosophy.
It's just that people who disagree with the party philosophy seek to
portray it in the most negative and emotional terms possible. I might
equally well say that the Democrats run on greed (give me as much of
your money as I can tax out of you) and fear (vote for me or those --
{shudder} -- *Christians* might gain a little influence.)
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: legend
|Date: 17 Feb 96 20:24:00
EID:d903 2051a300
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264510
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KW> Mike, they didn't invent the supernatural happenings. They borrowed
MH> KW> them from other beliefs then existent. There is very little original
MH> KW> in the Christ myth cycle.
MH> Regardless. There's simply not enough time for them to ascribe
MH> miraculous events -- whatever the source -- and have them believed.
KW> Mike, a few hours and a bit of patriotic wishful thinking is all that
KW> is necessary to get stories going. Add five years and you have a
KW> legend. Mix in a 'Donation of Constantine', and you have xtianity.
Christiantiy had existed for 300 years or so before Constantine came
into the picture.
MH> From the perspective of the very first hearers, the evangelists
MH> weren't saying these things about someone who lived a century ago
MH> thousands of miles away, but less than a decade ago right here. And
the
MH> others involved -- Peter, John, James, etc. -- should still be alive
MH> and right here in Jerusalem. Kind of hard to claim the disciples were
MH> fictional characters, in light of that fact.
KW> Ever check out the various legends surrounding Bonnie Charlie? And
KW> some of those people were my direct ancestors. Sorry, Mike, no brass
KW> ring. Haven't you ever heard old solders talk? The eye witnesses are
KW> the ones who are the absolute worst about embellishing.
And they frequently allow themselves to be killed by thrown stones or
torches rather than take it back. Sure.
MH> Did you miss something? My first point dealt with Paul's letters. The
MH> earliest of those were written within 10-12 years of Jesus's death.
And
MH> since they were written to established communities of believers,
MH> obviously the beliefs must have existed for some time prior to the
MH> letters being written.
MH> The letters of Paul portray a Jesus who is very much miraculous, in
MH> that he rose from the grave and was God in human flesh. There's no
MH> evidence of the development of legend.
KW> Friend of a friend.
Not enough time. You're still missing the point, I think -- Paul wrote
his first letters no more than 15 years after the crucuifixion AND
CHRISTIANITY WAS WELL-ESTABLISHED LONG BEFORE HIS FIRST LETTERS.
MH> KW> Oh, yes. Probably most of the material in them pre dates the alleged
MH> KW> birth of the Christ.
MH> Can you support that claim with some actual evidence? I'm giving you
MH> dates and specifics, and you're countering with vague claims.
KW> Mike, most of the 'miracles' ascribed to Jesus are copied from older
KW> myth structures. Compare his death and resurrection with that of the
KW> Mythric cycle. Jesus was simply another Corn King. Re-writing the
KW> legend to fit the gospels just isn't that impressive.
There's absolutely no evidence that that's true. In the first place,
the stories of Mithra or any other mythical god bear very little
resemblance to the story about Jesus. As with your "corn king," the
dying/rising gods of mythology merely symbolized cycles of seasons. The
story of Jesus has absolutely no connection to anything like that.
Then there's the point you still haven't answered: How would you get
people who knew Jesus personally to believe these legends while the
real Jesus was still fresh in their memories?
And there are other important differences, especially as regards
the FIRST hearers of the Jesus story:
MYTH: Long ago, far away.
JESUS: Right here within recent memory.
MYTH: Mythical god.
JESUS: Real person that many of the first followers knew in the flesh.
MYTH: Alien to the Jewish culture from which Christianity grew, which
was very resistant to adopting foreign religious influences.
JESUS: Flowed naturally from Jewish ideas of messiah as suffering
servant and sin-bearer.
And finally, there's the chicken-and-egg point. The mythical ideas that
can be clearly dated prior to Christianity bear little real similarity
to it. The mythical ideas that bear a strong resemblance to some
element of Christianity cannot be shown to have existed until two or
three centuries AFTER Christianity was born -- indicating that any
borrowing that occurred went the other way from what you suppose.
Now:
KW> Mike, most of the 'miracles' ascribed to Jesus are copied from older
KW> myth structures. Compare his death and resurrection with that of the
KW> Mythric cycle. Jesus was simply another Corn King. Re-writing the
KW> legend to fit the gospels just isn't that impressive.
Once again, I have given you concrete points and argument, and you
defend your position is defended with a vague "Oh, well, it's obvious."
Can you give me anything more persuasive? How about an actual example?
... Very funny Scotty. Now beam up my clothes.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Simon Ewins
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 17 Feb 96 20:48:00
EID:24a2 2051a600
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89264511
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Simon Ewins to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not
BJ> hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
BJ> This is kind of what I am trying to do, help people with the Gospel.
BJ> If there is something you don't like in this great scripture, give me
BJ> a call and we can chat about it.
SE> Are you willing to 'drink any deadly thing'? Your bible says that it
SE> 'shall not hurt' you. Do you actually believe that? Would you drink
a
SE> glass of Drano? How strong is your faith? If you are willing to drink
SE> it please post a time and a place where you are going to do this so
SE> that I can witness it and bring a team of paramedics to save your sorry
SE> ass when your imaginary god-thing fails you.
If all the best copies of a book end at one point, and then you find a
much newer copy of the book that has two more pages tacked on to the
end, do you consider those two pages to be part of the original book?
... Tagline deleted -- Nothing funny about this.
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|From: David Robins
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 14 Feb 96 18:11:49
EID:d1b6 204e9160
MSGID: 1:247/312.0 31267aaf
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
___ Quoting Judith Bandsma to David Robins re DINOSAURS? on 12 Feb 96 02:17:00
DR> The "Taylor trail" is a recently discovered path that shows a human
DR> track running through a dinosaur track. That and other evidence,
JB> The 'Taylor trail'? Is that the one at Paluxy? The one that even the
JB> ICR finally admitted WASN'T a human track?
JB> Oh dear, I do wish Leipzig wasn't in Russia.
Darn... oh well, I guess it would have shot down evolution too obviously
if
it had been real.
ú úùÄúÄù--Ä-ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-Ä--ÄùÄúÄùú ú
Overlord - sysop: Death's Vortex @ 1-905-892-5619
Vortex WHQ - F'REQ "VORTEX" for product list.
ú úùÄúÄù--Ä-ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-Ä--ÄùÄúÄùú ú
... A flying particle will seek the nearest eye.
--- No Walruses!
* Origin: Bloom County - Welland, Ontario >>(905) 732-9956<< (1:247/312)
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|From: Jon Vandenberg
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Missing Children
|Date: 16 Feb 96 23:31:12
EID:4112 2050bbe0
MSGID: 1:228/45 31251402
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3124cdda
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=| On 16 Feb 96 05:05, George Rudzinski said: |=-
GR> Read the conference rules on the Missing Children Echo.
Sorry, I dropped it long ago. No local interest.
GR> And which of three echoes are you talking about?
MISSING_CHILD is the echotag.
GR> Having a big mouth is easy, knowing what you are talking about
GR> requires a bit more effort.
Sounds like the voice of experience there george.
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 16 Feb 96 22:12:00
EID:64a2 2050b180
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 31250146
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8921439A
-=| On 12 Feb 96 19:11, Michael Hardy said: |=-
MH> Makes me want to move to Toronto or Grandville or some other foreign
MH> place.
Ahem!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: The Big Secret (shhhhhh)
|Date: 16 Feb 96 22:35:01
EID:7dd5 2050b460
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 312506d8
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892343AE
-=| On 14 Feb 96 21:22, Michael Hardy said: |=-
MH> Got it on Valentine's Day, shweetheart ... :)
Thanks. And don't address stuff to "David". It missed my search thingie!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God
|Date: 17 Feb 96 08:37:05
EID:a6ac 205144a0
MSGID: 1:207/212 ef4ef215
On (15 Feb 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Don Martin...
BJ> Look God has given you a chance to repent of your sins. I can
BJ> not help it if you don't want to follow God's message, laid down in
BJ> the Bible (KJV). So if you don't want to repent and be baptized you
BJ> and your sin are headed for Hell.
I need evidence that I've hurt someone before I make amends. First and
foremost that said person exists. You can't tell me I ran over someone
yesterday with my car and not provide evidence, for example. You can't
tell me I sinned against god and not provide evidence that he exists.
Until then, I will handle any transgressions I make against other people
[and they are generally unintentional] WITH those people, and not some
imaginary superfriend.
... Dream, but don't quit your day job.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Unofficial Holysmoke
|Date: 17 Feb 96 08:43:50
EID:2cdd 20514560
MSGID: 1:207/212 40ece535
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org dc56d2a7
On (16 Feb 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Ryan Shaw...
In case it didn't go through the first time. :)
KW> .J. Hitt Death Spell Test Site Sugar-laden teeth rotting
Cola
KW> RS>Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes' White
Zinfandel
KW> Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
KW> Steve Quarrella Atheist Creemore Ale or any decent
porter
KW> John Prewett Sister Lover/Bitch the blood of Christ
KW> Katherine Wintersnight Witch good coffee w\c&s
Karen Davis Agnostic diet cola, Mai Tai
... Mediocrity killed the cat.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: HS WEB PAGE
|Date: 17 Feb 96 08:48:52
EID:9d90 20514600
MSGID: 1:207/212 f15ae154
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 00b8a772
On (16 Feb 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Preston Simpson...
KW> Call your local bloodbank, and ask. Taking large doses of tylenol or
KW> motrin can do the same thing, by the way. Both drugs can cause liver
KW> damage with the resultant enzymes in the blood. I just spent a year
KW> 'out' because of this (I take a hefty amount of motrin for arthritis).
I've tested too high for certain liver enzymes a couple of times over a
couple of years myself. Don't know why, in my case.
... Save the turtles. Don't wax your car.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 17 Feb 96 10:57:13
EID:571e 20515720
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042bb
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 312473c4
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Don Martin wrote in a message to Preston Simpson:
PS> because I figure that more and more programs will be geared to run from
PS> it in the future and I might as well save myself the trouble of
PS> installing it by taking care of it now.
DM> Sadly, this is probably true. I am faced by the dismal
DM> prospect of having to install windows if I can ever afford a
DM> CD-ROM
I installed it the second day 95 Final was released on CD-ROM...and never
looked back. :)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: MYTHS [fwd]
|Date: 17 Feb 96 10:59:14
EID:fdaa 20515760
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042bc
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 125085e2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
RS> David Isbell wrote in a message to Jane Kelley:
RS> DI> Please!! Jesus is in history books. His crucifixion is in history
RS> DI> books. At least believe in history.
RS> Did Jesus run Fastecho?
RS> hehehe Probably.
Superman is in the history books. I'll believe in him, instead.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One Gawd ass
|Date: 17 Feb 96 11:10:37
EID:9fc0 20515940
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042bf
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Brad Jackson wrote in a message to Don Martin:
BJ> I pray the beast will not deceive you any longer. Pick up your
BJ> bible (KJV) read and then pray to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Sigh...Don, what was that you were saying about there being any *intelligent*
Xtians??
BJ> I don't (assume) that you know anything about our Lord.
I assume you do not either, fundy. You had to be told all that jeezoid
garbage by someone else. Your mythical lard has no real voice to speak
with. He is as weak and ineffectual as your postings here.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 17 Feb 96 23:44:40
EID:a4df 2051bd80
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042cc
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89260E38
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
SR> SW> the only master I have is Christ Jesus.
SR> That is for sure! Bow down and kiss your master's ass...fundy slave!
SW> The Lord rebuke you.
DC> Well, J.j. has the Ass-mo-dity Curse, you have your Wallis Rebuke.
So THAT's what all the green-pea soup is made of! Must be from the Wallis'
family recipe book.
DC> Shall we see which of the two is stronger?
The soup isn't, for sure. Not enough garlic salt.
Uh oh! Wallis just laughed! He's going to his mythical hell, for sure.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: FUNDAMENTALIST ARE IN
|Date: 17 Feb 96 18:53:52
EID:3e4d 205196a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12714636
FMPT 1012
JP> [------------]
AS> Where IS His Church? You put down the Catholics, certainly. The
AS> Protestants, for cowtowing to them. Where IS the Church, John?
Sprinkled out all over the world.
JP> "The guy" claims to rule Jesus's Church.
AS> He claims to lead the Catholics, JUST AS, say,
AS> my elders claim to lead my church. [---------]
From- 1994 'Catechism of the [Roman] Catholic Church
[pg 234 paperback] [my emphasis]
[882] The 'Pope', Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual
and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and
of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason
of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has
FULL, SUPREME, and UNIVERSAL power over the whole Church, a power which
he can always exercise unhindered."403 -END QUOTE-
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIO
|Date: 17 Feb 96 19:33:12
EID:98eb 20519c20
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12714637
FMPT 1012
JP> Vatican/papacy- True to Jesus ? Or not ?
AS> Not. But then, Israel fell away from Jehovah several times,
AS> and God still labored to bring Israel back and save it.
And, after much warning, ancient Israel was destroyed.
Therefore his calamity will come suddenly;
Instantly he will be broken, and there will be no healing. Prov. 6:15
A man who hardens his neck after much reproof
Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy. Prov. 29:1
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: John Prewett
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: information
|Date: 17 Feb 96 21:23:30
EID:c0f6 2051aae0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12714638
FMPT 1012
Aaron Boyden> I was awarded a master's degree in philosophy by UC Santa
Barbara in 1995, 28 years after Wald got his Nobel prize. I'm also at present
a doctoral candidate in philosophy at that same institution. [--------------------]
I encountered the above facts in a class on the philosophy of science at
the University of Minnesota (the Twin Cities campus; that's where I spent
my undergraduate days, so I have a B.A. in philosophy from there if you
want to count all my credentials), [--------------------------------------------]
MG> Children, should not be allowed to watch porn. [---------]
AB> Out of curiosity, why shouldn't children be allowed to watch porn?
AB>[--------------------------------------------------------------------]
So much for "higher" "education."
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: John Prewett
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 17 Feb 96 22:43:18
EID:f010 2051b560
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 1271463e
FMPT 1012
KD> JOHN PREWETT spoke thusly to DAVID HILLING:
JP> Would you believe there are people so dumb they think God is dead.
JP> In spite of evidence.
KD> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
JP> Some admit God is alive, but are so dumb they think Jesus is dead.
JP> In spite of evidence.
KD> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
JP> Some admit Jesus is alive, but are so dumb they think a man in Rome
JP> is His "vicar." In spite of evidence.
KD> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
JP> Some admit Jesus is alive, and see that the so-called "vicar" in Rome
JP> is a phoney, but are so dumb they don't think it matters. In spite of
JP> evidence.
KD> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
The following is a correlation of some of the Revelations descriptions,
and the unique fulfillment found in known facts regarding the Vatican.
From chapters 17-18- ['IFO' = 'In Fulfillment Of']
17:2 '.....with whom the kings of the earth committed immorality..'. IFO
17:2 - The immoral ties of the Vatican with earthly rulers
are presently and historically verifiable.
17:4 '.....and the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet...'. IFO 17:4
- Find a picture of the Cardinals in full costume.
17:5 '.....Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots....'. IFO 17:5 - The
Vatican calls herself the 'mother' 'church'
because the other 'churches' came out of her.
The other 'churches' share her perversion.
17:6 '.....drunk with the blood of saints...'.
IFO 17:6 - Study the inquisitions. A policy of murder & torture
of real people, carried out openly over centuries.
Inspired and directed by men who claim to be the
unique and direct representatives of Jesus Christ.
17:9 '.....seven hills on which the woman sits....'. IFO 17:9 - Rome is
famous for its seven hills.
17:15 '.....The waters which you saw where the woman sits,
are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues....'. IFO 17:15 - The
worldwide influence of the Vatican is obvious.
17:18 '.....and the woman you saw is the great city which
reigns over the kings of the earth...'. IFO 17:18 - The popes long ruled
openly over the kings of the known world.
Every king knew that if he bucked the papacy, then the pope
would - could - did encourage the citizens to revolt.
This principle is still in practice today.
18:4 '.....voice from heaven saying: Come out of her MY people...'. IFO
18:4 - Some R.C.'s belong to Jesus and will come out.
[they will also come out of the denominations]
This is happening now, and has happened before.
18:12-19 ..... describes the great wealth of the great whore. IFO 18:12-19-
Vatican's financial assets [open-hidden] are enormous.
The Revelation says there is a great whore in the city of 7 hills,...
and lo and behold- there is. Most commentators place the writing
of the Revelation at around 90AD, well before the Vatican existed.
This visible and verifiable fulfillment is God-given
evidence confirming the truth of Jesus Christ.
Discussion most welcome. With best wishes, John
---- 'Come out of her MY people....' [fm Rev.18] ----
Call on Jesus and heed His Revelation !
======================================
KD> ... What this world needs is a damn good plague.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: John Prewett
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Re: The Light
|Date: 17 Feb 96 23:18:40
EID:63c2 2051ba40
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12714640
FMPT 1012
AH> Hebrew Scripture is the ONLY Scripture.
JP> Wonderful. Are you a believer in the God revealed in Hebrew scripture
?
AH> I'm not a believer. However, the Original Testament is considered the
AH> Word of God by believers - the add-on testaments are the words of men.
AH> As such, they're no different than any other stories written by men.
Your point is pointless.
If the OT is untrue, then believers in the OT
are just as deceived as believers in OT and NT.
Do you doubt the NT authors were also Jewish ?
AH> Whilst masticating on ,
AH> John Prewett (1:355/2.1012@fidonet) wrote to Alan Hess:
AH> 3. Why would a Christian want the Bible replaced with his own book?
AH> Ask the men who wrote Testament II, and replaced the Bible with it.
JP> "Replaced" ? Hmmmmmm, I've seen a lot of books combining
JP> Testaments I AND II.
AH> So why don't Christians keep kosher, among other things? Because
AH> they wrote a new book, and kept the parts they liked of the old one.
You either don't know anything about the content of the NT,
or,
you are pretending to not know anything about the content of the NT.
Don't play dumb. It's so tedious.
JP> Do you really believe Moses got the 10 commands from God ?
AH> Nope.
Basically,
you are saying the OT is a lie from beginning to end,
written by the world's most powerful literary liars.
Your attitude that the OT is superior to the NTis ridiculous.
And probably flows from your particular ethnic pride.
JP> You call it the "CHRISTian thing to do."
JP> The only consensus accepted written record we have of Christ, the NT,
JP> does not include such as the action you describe.
AH> That hasn't stopped Christians from killing in the name of Christ.
You're just brainwashed [as most are] into a meaningless use of
the label "CHRISTian." As you [and most people] use it,
the label doesn't mean what it insinates.
You [and most people] call people "Christians" even when the
their deeds which attracted your attention, are deeds that
are completely at odds with the person [CHRIST] that you
insinuate is their leader.
Basically, you are blaming Christ for deeds
that are OPPOSITE and CONTRADICT
the revealed word and example of CHRIST.
JP> So why [other than mind-less anti-Christ bigotry]
AH> No, mindless is killing people because a religious
AH> leader says "God wants you to."
Sure that's mindless.
I AGREE that "RELIGIOUS" leaders"
have done just what you describe.
But CHRIST didn't do what you describe.
Nor have people that were really fit to be known as CHRISTians.
That is, people who were really led by CHRIST.
AH> Speaking of Christian ways, have you ever read about how European
AH> Christians were partlly responsible for the spread of the Black Death?
AH> Seems they believed cats were Satanic, and killed every cat they saw.
AH> Naturally, the rat population exploded, along with the rat fleas that
AH> carried plague!
JP> You call it "CHRISTian ways," though the only consensus
JP> accepted written record we have of Christ, the NT,
JP> does not include such as the action you describe.
AH> It was the position of Christian churches, which makes it "Christian
ways."
You're just revealing that you presently
don't care to accurately use the label "Christian."
Nobody claims CHRIST ever said rat's were Satanic.
It's a matter of accurate labeling.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: All
|Sub: Subject Headers
|Date: 17 Feb 96 19:09:51
EID:d220 20519920
MSGID: 1:352/266 31267CFF
Hi, I'm new here and trying to find a place to fit in. I browse the echo
for subjects of interest, then find that the post has absolutely noting
to do with the subject line. Could it be that hard to shift the subject
header when the conversation drifts?
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 17 Feb 96 19:15:20
EID:aa88 205199e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31267D00
KW> Check periodically to see if fermentation is finished, this will
KW> takeabout ten days to two weeks. Fermentation is finished when the
KW> mead is no longer bubbling, and has begun to clear. Yes, it will
KW> look absolutely evil there for a while, don't worry, it is supposed
KW> to.
Hmmmm checking the subject header then reading this post I can almost force
it into a religious discussion.... Dionysus??? or Bachus??
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: conformists
|Date: 16 Feb 96 21:55:00
EID:4d41 2050aee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E1C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-15-96 21:21, Ryan Shaw got back to Michael Hardy
MH> Man: Why do you do these weird things?
MH> Son: To be different.
RS> Yeah. He's got individuality, just like everyone else.
Yeah, but will he also jump off of that bridge....
... I'm just here for moral support...ignore the gun....
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Terry Liberty-parker
|Sub: F'req Censorship Law and
|Date: 16 Feb 96 21:59:00
EID:8c0f 2050af60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-16-96 08:34, Terry Liberty-parker got back to All
TL> I have the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and the ACLU law suit about
TL> it available at LibertyBBS (512)462-1776 (28k @ 444-0522).
What would help your cause would be if the messages were entered
here by someone unlike your self.
... "I _could_ prove it, but I don't wanna".
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Hey you all
|Date: 16 Feb 96 22:02:00
EID:a48b 2050b040
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-15-96 20:07, Ryan Shaw got back to Zayd Allebban
ZA> involved in and I'm overloaded with messages there. So until I can
ZA> get that under control, I won't be writing here for a while...
RS> Ask Allah for an offline message reader.
He's have the time, but it's current having to bend over 5
times a day.
Maybe he'll explain why, though it may be graphic!
... Halftime at Circvs Maximvs, and the Lions lead the Christians 326-0.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Southern Men
|Date: 17 Feb 96 14:49:00
EID:afef 20517620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-16-96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight got back to David Worrell
DW> DW>> 'Zactly. You don't realize that's a compliment, do you? ;)
DW> KW> You're *so* smart .
DW>Stop that. Yer gonna get me excited again.... ;)
KW> Now, that doesn't seem hard to do.
Since when did David mention he had an impotence problem? ;)
... Reality is what is. Supernatural is what isn't.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: RE: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 17 Feb 96 18:30:00
EID:ad64 205193c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-16-96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
KW> Yes. Ah, well. He's since replaced it, with a Pelikan. That
KW> one will stay in my desk, and the Purse Goddess isn't going to get a
Sort like my jacket pocket. Amazing the stuff that I find in there
that I forgot I had...
KW> Typing can be rough, esp. on my wrists. If my hands get to bad, I
KW> make bread. Working the warm dough will usually limber them back up.
Making bread is always fun. That, and it smells and tastes so
much better then store bought.
KW> keep them flexible. Objectively, though, I do not have pretty, dainty
KW> little hands.
Sounds like my cousin's. Hers look like they belong to a boxer!
DC> KW> keep a couple of cheap Parkers in there to loan). Things disappear
DC>Ask my daughter... She can find anything!
KW> Or mine! She can lose anything.
Seems like I won't trade my for yours. You can borrow mine to
help you find your pen, though.
... Solomon had 200 wives & 700 cucumbers. -- Richard Lederer
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 17 Feb 96 19:36:00
EID:b942 20519c80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-15-96 21:43, Masochistic Maiden got back to Fsns Goliath Bbs
FB> 4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
MM> etc. How can I obtain all of these argumentation fomats. They are
by
MM> the way GREAT!
You seem to be new here.. Goliath is the automatated FAQ mailer.
I didn't save the last copy, but it looks like I should have...
Any how, Coridon Henshaw may have the complete list, or any number
of the regulars may have it stored away for future reference.
BTW, nice to see I'm not alone in this Echo in this corner of
the country. Was getting lonely here... }:-)
... "Aren't unevidenced supernatural claims _FUN_!": Hector
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 17 Feb 96 19:53:00
EID:d550 20519ea0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-15-96 21:01, Masochistic Maiden got back to Norbert Sykes
MM> Is this sort of an open flame echo without interest in scholarly
MM> attempts?
Sometimes, but not always.
MM> I have a real interest in discussion of religions (regardless of type)
MM> but don't want to waste time on meaningless posts.
Not exactly what you are looking for, as, for the most part,
it is a religion debunking Echo. Facts, not myths are the
general rule of order.
MM> I'm just beginning to build my own sacred texts resource library and
MM> would love the chance to enjoy learning from posts on any or all of
the
MM> above topics.
You may wish, unlike your handle suggests, to lurk rather than
join in the fray. If you look closely, you will be able to
glean quite a lot of references for many religions and their origins.
The primary one is xian, but others do surface from time to time.
Should you do decide to participate, do rember to back up any
claims you make with facts, not conjecture or simple belief. To
do so and stay on will truly make apropos your handle.
... "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you." - Inigo Montoya
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 17 Feb 96 19:57:00
EID:9e3b 20519f20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-14-96 13:29, George Mooth got back to All
GM> THE BLESSING OF PERSECUTION
Great blesing. Do you have to hold your ankles to get it, or
do you do it on your knees?
... "I, George, don't know what the fuck I'm talking about"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: PERSECUTION CENTRAL
|Date: 17 Feb 96 20:04:00
EID:b528 2051a080
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-15-96 13:44, Sally Springett got back to George Rudzinski
JB> BZZZZZT! Herbs, not spices. Don't want to hear that chive.
ML> I shall type more gingerly next thyme.
SS> My most sage advice would be to put down that mace lest you
SS> tarragon. Judith would hate it if you tore her toga.
GR> Another alum of Pun U?
Perhaps you'd best Styx to the topic, cin-a-mean..
SS> An employee of Puns 'R' We.
You have to pepper up the conversation, not make it bland.
Hope I didn't wound you. I salt I might have. I get
carramond away sometimes....
... "The Good, The bad, and the guy with the pun.": Various Holy Smokers
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: role model for Maria
|Date: 17 Feb 96 20:13:00
EID:fb6f 2051a1a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89270E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-15-96 11:33, Sue Armstrong got back to J.j. Hitt
JH> Does she sign her checks Liz Windsor?
SA> Does Charles have an uncanny resemblance to Chuck E. Cheese? :)
ROTFL! Now I know where that place's headliner came from!
... Can I scrootch him NOW, Cloy?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Quick
|To: All
|Sub: MICHELANGELO
|Date: 17 Feb 96 00:37:00
EID:10c9 205104a0
MSGID: 1:100/4.0 89270E75
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 93-0100
I was installing some shareware games on my nine year old step-
son's computer and noticed the mouse functions were acting
strangely. On a hunch I grabbed a virus scanner and it promptly
picked up MICHELANGELO in the partition table. My machine was un-
infected.
After cleaning up my step-son's harddrive, I went through several
boxes of 5.25 inch floppies that had been donated by a relative
and discovered that these disks were the likely source of the
infection.
The bug is still out there and multiplying guys, and guess what?
Michelangelo's birthday is right around the corner! March 6 is
the date the virus activates and re-formats the harddrive of the
infected machine. It might be a good idea to drag out those virus
scanners and give everything a good once-over.
Richard Quick
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: NO I'M NOT SMART
|Date: 14 Feb 96 22:30:24
EID:9d11 204eb3c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042a4
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
AS> You think after death there will be oblivion, right?
{{ Yawn }}
Say, weren't you supposed to be in some sort of fire or something? I forget.
AS> it really doesn't matter whether you die tomorrow, or fifty
AS> years from now. The same oblivion awaits.
For the one who is dead, I would think.
AS> Why try to prolong it? For the good you can do?
I haven't yet tried 'Frosted Lucky Charms.' Hence, something to live for.
AS> So your reason for existing is basically selfish?
No one ever asks to be born. Deal with the reality of it, Cat-man. :)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 14 Feb 96 22:31:21
EID:6b78 204eb3e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042a6
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
A> Anyway, in this instance I employed summoning to damage J.J. (take
A> another) Hitt. It only requires utmost concentration, and knowledge
A> to employ the correct means for the job
Useful knowledge is something which ignorant babble fundies truly lack.
It's no wonder you failed in all your attempts to curse J.J.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 12 Feb 96 14:38:00
EID:d432 204c74c0
February 14 Wednesday
SIGNS OF LOVE
Read: John 14:15-24
If you love Me, keep my commandments.
-John 14:15
School was over for the day, and 14-year-old Sandy couldn't wait
to get home. Bursting into the kitchen, she exclaimed, "Mother, I'm
in love! I tingle whenever I'm near him, and I have butterflies in
my stomach when he talks to me."
Sandy's mother listened as her daughter bubbled over about the
wonders of being in love, but she wasn't unduly alarmed. She
expected that before long the romance would end - and in a few days
it did. There's much more to true love than a tingling sensation
and butterflies in the stomach.
Likewise, the signs of a genuine love for Jesus must be much more
than the good feelings gained from enthusiastic singing and glowing
testimonies in public.
I heard of a woman who exuberantly described how much she enjoyed
her church and loved Jesus. Yet she refused to speak to her mother-
in-law, fought with her sisters, and tried to dominate her husband.
If she couldn't show her devotion to Jesus by obeying His command to
love others, the happiness she felt at church meant nothing.
When Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (Jn.
14:15). He was giving us the supreme test of our devotion to Him.
Do we pass the test?
-Herbert Vander Lugt
For many, love is just a word,
A passing phase, a brief emotion;
But love that honors Christ our Lord
Responds to Him with deep devotion. -Hess
ONE PROOF OF YOUR LOVE FOR GOD
IS YOUR LOVE FOR YOUR NEIGHBOR.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
* 1st 2.00 #1855 * God's baud rate is ..
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 13 Feb 96 12:44:00
EID:d432 204d6580
February 15 Thursday
ONE DAY IS NOT ENOUGH
Read: Genesis 2:18-25
He who loves his wife loves himself.
For no one ever hated his own flesh,
but nourishes and cherishes it.
-Ephesians 5:28-29
Why are we so stubbornly neglectful at times about the
relationship that can bring us the most happiness?
It's no secret that outside of our fellowship with God, the most
vital connection we have with anyone is the one we share with our
spouse. Yet how often do we treat that relationship with the
attention it needs?
When God ordained marriage in the Garden, He offered us a
remarkable relationship. When nurtured, it brings happiness, peace,
fulfillment, purpose, and growth. The irony of this close
connection between two people, though, is that when it is not
nurtured, it can bring frustration, pain, sorrow, anger, and
bitterness.
That's why I wonder why we are so stubbornly neglectful about this
vital relationship.
On certain days throughout the year, we are expected to show
special attention to the one we love. On those days we find it easy
to demonstrate the qualities that brighten a marriage. But
shouldn't we do this every day? Shouldn't we love, honor, cherish,
communicate, forgive, respect, and guard this relationship all the
time? We will if we want the joy God intended for us to experience
in our marriage.
-J. David Branon
A marriage that's neglected
Brings pain and bitterness;
But one that's daily nurtured
Brings peace and happiness. -Sper
NURTURE YOUR MARRIAGE,
AND YOU'LL NOURISH YOUR SOUL.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Scot Bear
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 14 Feb 96 23:10:00
EID:0735 204eb940
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 16947475
REPLY: 1:154/69.0 312010dc
>> After seeing what just happened, I wonder what Styx will
>> say to the following 2 words?
>>
>> PAT BUCHANAN
It would please me immensely to see him drop dead of "natural causes".
That dickweed is dangerous, and does not belong in the republican
party (IMO).
> I have been very disappointed in the rhetoric that Styx has
> been espousing of late.
"I don't care whether you are disappointed with me or not."
Your opinion of me may have changed since you learned of my
differences of political affiliation, but I am still very much
the same person as before.
For someone who protests homophobic bigotry, you hypocritically
exhibit many of the same tendencies toward my political orientation.
You acted as though I were a friend of yours until such time as
you learned of my conservative political ideologies. Much the same
as a homophobe would until learning that his friend is gay.
Well, my being a republican should have no more bearing upon being
friends... than what your being gay should. They're simply a part
of who and what we are.
> Seems he can disparage the christians in here but, when it
> comes to personal beliefs he's just like the rest of 'em...
With every subsequent outburst, you reveal just how little you
observe of individual actions; preferring instead to stereotype
conservatives in the same manner as what you fault homophobes
for doing toward gays. Instead of being a homophobe,
you're being a conservaphobe. Different targets; same approach.
Learn from your own hatred, Scot. Learn what friendship entails.
I'm not gonna try to force you to be a friend, whether you care to
be or not; but if you expect to be, you'll need to recognize
that we have differences. You equate conservatives with Christians.
Karen equates conservatives with Nazis. I see a pattern, and it
doesn't look much different from homophobes equating gays with
any number of different concepts. Prejudice is prejudice.
You, Scot... are just as prejudiced as those who you condemn for
being homophobic.
It is unfortunate that your image of me has been tainted by my
political affiliation, but I make no apologies for admitting
to being a conservative. It doesn't stop either of us from being
good people. It merely means that we are not in agreement.
Ironic how people say that there are two things to never discuss
between friends: Religion and Politics. It might interest you
(or it might not - no matter) to learn some background on my
my six closest friends: [in order of description length]
A Catholic liberal
An agnostic liberal
An atheist conservative
A Christian conservative
A conservative who believes in the supernatural
An agnostic conservative who was once a Christian liberal
Quite a vast variety of political/religious combinations, and all
are the finest people that I know. It makes no difference to me.
It shouldn't make such a difference to you. I can still remain
friends with those who hold drastically differing philosophies.
Can you do the same?
-Styx
P.S.
Take a look at Ryan & I. Our philosophies run parallel on some
issues (i.e. environment, non-theism) and come to complete odds on
other issues (i.e. taxation, violence, eating of meat). We can
be at loggerheads one moment, and hiking through the wilderness
or scheming against Christians immediately afterward.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 15 Feb 96 00:48:01
EID:a6e0 204f0600
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 16947476
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3120b6bf
>> You're rare.
>SA> Then so are all of my other conservative friends.
>SA> Perhaps you need to expand your scope of conservativism beyond
>SA> what the liberals would prefer to limit you to.
> Perhaps you should find out what your conservative friends
> actually believe.
Perhaps you shouldn't rely on innuendo such as that statement
would imply, given that some of the friends to whom I referred
just so happen to read this echo. I feel safe in the assumption
that I know these people better than what you do, George.
>SA> Apparently, you haven't read what I've said repeatedly:
>SA> THE PRESIDENT SERVES AS A FIGUREHEAD AND SCAPEGOAT.
>SA> CONGRESS HOLDS (almost) ALL OF THE POWER.
> Hardly! The President has the power of veto and the Bully Pulpit,
> the populace has the courts.
Earth to George! Earth to George! Congress can override a
presidential veto, thereby rendering it academic in doing so.
A presidential symbolism reflected in an overturned veto would
thereby lessen his position to that of a figurehead, in that
it had no impact upon the actual outcome.
>SA> That is one primary factor in Limbaugh's popularity... is that he
>SA> shows clips of what people actually said - after pointing out what
>SA> major newspapers INCORRECTLY reported.
> Out of context.
Wishful thinking. You should try watching it, instead of relying
on hearsay. Depsite his brash egoistic arrogance, his video clips
of political figures stating something that differs from how it
was reported by other news sources - is very much in context.
> Limbaugh has been shown wrong time and time again.
Quite true. But his video clips of actual happenings... are not
prone to the same tendencies toward misinformation as what the
opinion of one person is. That's why I prefer his TV show to his
radio talk show. His radio show merely deals with his opinions.
His TV show allows you to decide for yourself via actual video
footage; which disputes second-hand verbage.
> The media has a much better track record than Limbaugh.
That statement is as indefensible as any Christian generalization
that I can think of. How would you go about backing up such a
grandiose claim? Take the media's word for it? Who is "the media"?
I would hate to think that Brawley may be right about some of the
things he's attributed to you; but this does look incriminating.
Be more careful next time.
> Limbaugh claims he represents both sides.
I've been watching his shows for a long time, George. I can't
recall ever having heard him make such a statement. He makes a
point of reminding people that
"this show is about me and what _I_ think."
To make such a claim as what you attribute to him... would be
inconsistent with hosting a show about his OWN opinions.
> He sure as hell doesn't represent me.
How would you know unless you listened to him, and you obviously
do not - as evidenced by your unfamiliarity with his most dominant
characteristics. He doesn't always represent my views, either.
What I find reassuring about his show is that he shows you what
the "other" media won't/doesn't. I finally get to enjoy someone
speaking out against AND EXPOSING the liberals getting caught with
their proverbial pants down. He also does some great parodies.
Perhaps if he were doing the same of right wing conservatives, too;
you would be more likely to tune in and appreciate him. Since he
doesn't fight for your side, you naturally believe the worst
without even finding out for yourself. I dare you to watch one
of his TV shows all the way through.
> Now feel free to tell me how public safety wasn't at risk
> when he fired the controllers? Who took their place?
The question is academic, given the fact that the ATCs had already
walked off the job when they were fired. Replacing them with
rookies/trainees was better than none at all. What would you have
done, given the circumstances? Write a blank check to appease
the blackmailing ATCs who put public safety at risk by abandoning
their posts - and hope that they wouldn't do so again?
>> I'll tell you why we haven't made much progress - Conservinazi
>> or liberal, most of our legislators are MALE.
>SA> [yawn] Women outnumber men. That means that more women are
>SA> eligible to vote than men. Obviously, women therefor vote
>SA> for men.
> And men vote for women. Your point?
Precisely the same point that you just sought to prove...
that voting is not gender specific. It's merely a matter
of whoever the majority voted for.
>SA> If you take issue with those who women MUST support in order for
>SA> them to gain sufficient votes to be elected; I suggest that you
>SA> examine where your opinion ranks with regard to the majority of
>SA> other women's opinions. For obvious reasons, I don't believe that
>SA> your opinions reflect those of the women voting majority.
> Like we tell fundies Styx, what you believe means nothing.
Ironic. Didn't Brawley tell you something along those lines?
This is not looking too good, George. I'm reluctant to accept
that his allegations may have been correct, but you're not making
it very easy to dismiss them at this point in the game.
>SA> If you have to tell people how much you've suffered,
>SA> it's probably not as bad as you make it out to be.
>SA> (otherwise, you wouldn't need to point it out)
>SA> [that philosophy is echoed by one of the world's most
>SA> powerful women; Margaret Thatcher]
> A private citizen in England? The last time I looked her power
> extended to one vote.
At the time in which she made her famous statement, she was England's
prime minister. She remains a very powerful and influential woman.
Recall who her friends are. She made the statement that...
if you have to tell someone how powerful you are,
you probably aren't as powerful as you think you are.
>> Until we reach gender parity, we won't make too much more.
>SA> Until you adjust your attitude, you will not be accepted into the
>SA> "gender parity" compromise that you seek. Cause vs. effect, Karen.
> Really? Why does she need your acceptance?
Don't be stupid, George; unless that's how you wish to be perceived.
And you accuse Limbaugh of being out of context? Paint the mirror black.
[relevant text mysteriously missing...]
>SA> That would only indicate that the majority of welfare abusers
>SA> are women - not that the majority of women are welfare abusers.
> Welfare abusers? Care to show all of us how you can work for
> minimum wage as a single parent?
[as an aside, I've known people who have done it]
It's called sacrifice, George. Most appear reluctant to sacrifice
non-necessities in order to get out of the welfare trap. If they
were to suddenly lose their government assistance, the majority
would FIND a means to make minimum wage work for them. They would
just have to do without some of the luxuries that other people have
to work for.
>SA> Incidental effect does not equate to primary causation.
> So why do you assume that incidental effect equates to primary
> causation?
[shocked look] Are you practicing liberal reporting, George?
Apparently, you don't read what I write any better than you
listen to what Rush Limbaugh says. Try it again. It's quoted above.
>> THe lies the conservinazis tell about them, though...
>> I agree some restructuring can and should take place.
>> But let's cut MILITARY spending and other trash first.
>SA> Why FIRST? Why not SIMULTANEOUSLY? Do you perchance have
>SA> a stake in our welfare system?
> We all do. You don't pay for the police force that protects you.
I sure as hell do! But do the people that are on welfare?
> You don't pay for the fire department that you call when your
> house is on fire.
I sure as hell do! But do the people that are on welfare?
I also pay to support those people on welfare who don't pay
to support the services that you mention above.
> You haven't paid for the satellite that you use to bounce your
> messages off.
I sure as hell do! It is reflected in my phone bill. Everyone who
pays for telephone service helps finance those satellites. I also
pay extra each month on my phone bill... to help provide phone
service for those who can't afford it otherwise.
> You are all for welfare when it benefits you.
Whether I am for it or against it... is irrelevant to the fact that
a portion of every dollar that I earn is taken from me to finance
those on welfare. Perhaps you can enlighten me (being so wise)
as to what benefit I derive from my moneys "invested" in welfare.
>SA> Just curious, as I know many people on government assistance
>SA> who can't find work, but they can always find time to hang
>SA> out on BB systems - with better equipment than most working
>SA> people can afford.
> Nice claim! Feel free to show us Social Fundie how many folks
> that post on this system are on Welfare.
[What's with the Sudden Capitalization of certain Words, george?]
Again, your reading aptitude has led you to a mistaken interpretation
stereotypic of a liberalist. I didn't say that I knew HOW MANY.
I said that I know many. You sure make a good example of the
tactics to which I refer about liberalist reporting.
Misinterpretation can become cronic when one is seeking to see only
what one expects to see. Prejudice is blind. Open your eyes, George.
>> ... Real men don't abuse children.
>SA> Agreed. Are you surprised that we agree?
>SA> If you or a child have been mistreated by a "man", I would hope
>SA> that you would not attempt to "blanket classify" other men for
>SA> his actions. To do so would be no different than Christians
>SA> condemning everyone as "sinners" for Adam's sins.
> Don't hope, read what she said. She said, "Real men... ".
Perhaps YOU should read what I said, George. Read it again without
your blinders on. It's still quoted above. Read it slowly until
what the obvious becomes obvious to you. Hint: "If" denotes
conditional. I did not state that she DOES blanket classify men;
otherwise I would not have qualified the statement with conditions
such as "if", "hope", or "to do so would be...".
Me thinks thou are getting caught up in the heat of the battle,
rather than the spirit of differing opinions. Your objectivity
is being undermined by your eagerness to do fight conservatives.
I thought that you knew me better than what your message indicates.
-Styx
---
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Frederick Leff
|Sub: children
|Date: 13 Feb 96 19:53:00
EID:5fb8 204d9ea0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248AB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Frederick Leff to Michael Hardy <=-
> Children who haven't yet learned enough in order to
> *knowingly* choose right and wrong are not held responsible by God, in
my
> belief. Sin has to be a concious choice, and it can only be a concious
> choice for someone who knows enough to make such a choice.
FL> This is an example of your bad understanding of the bible. Look dude,
FL> Adam and Eve DID NOT know enough about good and evil before they ate
FL> the fruit, did they? Yet your god held them responsible! Your logic
... is fine, in contrast to your understanding of the story.
A&E had a direct order to not eat the fruit.
Jesus, in contrast, is the source of what I had said to begin with:
John 9: 40-41
Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and
asked, "What? Are we blind too?" Jesus said, "If you were blind,
you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see,
your guilt remains."
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Frederick Leff
|Sub: words and The Word
|Date: 13 Feb 96 19:57:00
EID:3555 204d9f20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248AC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Frederick Leff to Michael Hardy <=-
> MH> God didn't dictate it, but he did inspire it.
> FL> What does this mean?
> All of the above means that I believe God revealed important
> truths about Himself to various Biblical authors, but then they
> chose the words to express those truths.
FL> But you say that the bible IS the word of god! See:
> MH> I believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
FL> Which is it then?
Both -- they do not contradict.
The Bible is the WORD of God, in that it accurately reflects God's
nature, power and will. It is not the WORDS of God, in that God did not
dictate it word for word.
I already gave you an example of this, if I remember correctly. You may
say to me: "I am six feet, four inches tall." Those are your words. But
I may tell someone else, "Frederick Leff is over six feet tall." That
is your WORD -- it is an accurate, though less precise, phrasing of
what you told me. It is not, however, your exact words.
I believe the Bible contains God's exact words only in those places
where the prophets quote God, or when Jesus is quoted. Otherwise, it
contains man's recording of historical events aimed at depicting God's
role in human affairs.
> FL> Oh, then perhaps the global flood never happen, or jesus never came
> FL> back to life. It is possible, you said so yourself.
> Possible, sure. In the case of the flood, it's almost
> certain. In the case of Jesus's resurrection, it's probably not the case.
FL> How do you know which one is right or wrong?
In each case, we can ask: If this literally happened, what evidence
could we reasonably expect to be left today?
In the case of a flood which covered the earth, we'd expect to find a
layer of sediment within the earth that would indicate the presence of
water over the land, and it would show to be the same age no matter
where on the planet we found it. We don't find that.
In the case of Jesus returning from the grave, after three years of
teaching about the Kingdom of God and his own role in it, we'd expect
written records indicating that a body of believers formed immediately
after the event and passionately, fearlessly began proclaiming the
resurrection as historial truth. And we find exactly that.
... Dyslexics of the world untie!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: All
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:04:00
EID:7c6f 204da080
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248AD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate Christians for
using shareware offline readers for more than 30 days without
registering.
Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally hard
on Frederick Leff.
FL> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
Of course, those atheists almost certainly *are* hypocrites.
... We have our standards here on Holy Smoke ... at least two.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:06:00
EID:1db2 204da0c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248AE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Pretty much, except for the "somehow." But don't get the idea that
MH> being more valuable than animals means that animals are not
MH> valuable at all. They also are God's creation, and we are given
MH> the responsibility of caring for them.
RS> Nature does not need us to care for it, Mickey. That is a delusion
RS> that comes
RS> from your dogma.
This is the third time in four packets I've had this post. Are you
spamming me on purpose, or is there a problem?
... Very funny Scotty. Now beam up my clothes.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:14:00
EID:fd30 204da1c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248AF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Eric Hendrix to All <=-
EH> I know I'm going to get slammed right and left for this one, so
EH> let me say this right off. I feel there is no need for name-calling,
EH> blasphemous (to Christianity) replies. I wish to enter into an
EH> intelligent, peaceful debate on the views of Christianity, not sling
EH> a bunch of mud. Any replies like the ones mentioned above will not be
EH> responded to, simply ignored!
Well, that cuts down on the number of responses you'll have to answer.
The atheists here who can articulate coherent thoughts without
resorting to name-calling can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:26:00
EID:cabe 204da340
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248B0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Martin Goldberg <=-
MG> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild assed guess
MG> by some scientist?
AM> Yes.
AM>
ML>And all we ask is evidence; real, cold, hard, physical evidence
ML>for the support of these claims. Otherwise it's all just some
ML>hoary mental construct with any sort of foothold in reality.
ML>And, now, how can one evaluate the pros and cons of purely
ML>mental constructs?
ML>The playing ground is level, Andy. I can supply literally tons
ML>of evidence to support my contention.
ML>Can you claim the same?
AM> Okay, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I am up to the
AM> challenge! Let me define my contention. That from what can be
AM> extrapolated from scientific facts, there is a probability of us
AM> being here by design thats at least as, or more compelling than us
AM> being here by natural impersonal causes.
You might as well not have bothered. First I, then Al Schroeder, tried
this exact tack. You could show that the odds of a life-sustaining
universe existing by pure luck are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
and the response would still be "So?"
... There are few atheists on deathbeds. Those few are true fools.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Luke
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:30:00
EID:dce8 204da3c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248B1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Hector Plasmic <=-
AM> Yes, your right that was a poor argument on my part. The belief
AM> that Luke wrote the Gospel bearing his name is inferred, because in
AM> acts he relates some accounts from the first person, and others, as
AM> though he got the in formation from others. In a court, they only
AM> want you to testify about things you have personally seen. But from
AM> a journalistic or historian point of view, writing down others
AM> eyewitness testimony is an excepted practice. Too bad they didn't
AM> have camcorders back then.
The evidence that Luke wrote the gospel which bears his name is that it
has always been thought he did, and there is absolutely no evidence
that anyone else did, or even claimed to.
While it's true that we cannot prove it, it's also true that there is
no good reason to doubt it. I think people who lived half a century
after the book was written are in a better position to know who wrote
it than we are, almost 2,000 years later.
... To laugh well is to live well.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: software
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:33:00
EID:2cd3 204da420
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248B2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
LW> I have a better idea. If you're so worried about it why don't you
LW> send me the 50 bucks and I'll register the thang.
DM> Another splendid demonstration of your integrity. And we
DM> keep getting accused of making up this sort of shit about
DM> Christians to make them look bad.
See my post to ALL on a similar subject. We'll find out if you're an
honest man or a double-standard supporting hypocrite. :)
... First a Swede, reincarnated as a Norweigian: Yep, I'm Bjorn again.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: legend
|Date: 13 Feb 96 20:41:00
EID:5a26 204da520
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892248B3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> But we do have evidence that people who knew Jesus personally
MH> believed he really rose from the dead, and that no significant amount
MH> of time elapsed before this belief developed.
DC> No you don't. You have gospels written by unkown authors that
DC> claim to be witnesses. In fact, one of them states plainly that
DC> the author was _not_ a witness and another one was clearly written
DC> by a person that never even saw the messiah.
1. Paul's earliest letters were written around a.d. 50.
2. They were written to communities of believers that had already been
established for some time.
3. They contain a fully developed divine Christology.
4. Paul had persecuted Christians for some years before his
own conversion. His own conversion came 2-3 years before he
began his missionary travels, and he completed some of them
before he began writing his letters.
5. Therefore, people believed that Jesus was the risen Son of God NO
MORE THAN perhaps 5 years after the crucifixion.
If the explanation for this is not that it's the truth, then explain
it.
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Hit list
|Date: 14 Feb 96 04:08:57
EID:dae0 204e2100
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31216398
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Tim Pauly <=-
RTP>I go to worship the Lord, and to hopefully learn
TP> something that will make me a better person in the process.
GR> Try a library.
It hasn't worked for you. Why do you recommend it to someone else?
TP> And I don't see where helping other people is something to
TP> complain about.
GR> I don't see you helping other people.
Nor you. Your recent 'lost children' whine is just another attempt at
trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Ain't working. you are
still the same angry, bitter man you were before.
BTW, this '1-800-THE LOST', is it _your_ number? Your poor son's number?
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List
|Date: 13 Feb 96 19:12:19
EID:306e 204d9980
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7b24dda9
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311f3612
On (11 Feb 96) Don Martin wrote to Ryan Shaw...
DM> Ryan Shaw said "The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List" to All,
DM> adding:
RS> Please send in your entries!
RS> The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List
DM> The Late J.J. Hitt Death Spell Test Site Sugar-laden teeth rotting
DM> Cola Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes' White
^^^^
DM> Zinfandel Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
^^^^^^^^^
DM> Steve Quarrella Atheist Creemore Ale or any
DM> decent porter
DM> John Prewett Sister Lover/Bitch the blood of Christ
DM> Don MArtin atheist Lagers, porters and ales
DM> from small breweries
I think you need to tighten up your columns a little bit in order
to allow for the quoting marks.
... If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease. -- Clark Adams
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 13 Feb 96 19:16:02
EID:5d13 204d9a00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 3f765170
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 311fedcf
On (12 Feb 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Kenneth Mcabee...
KM> Maybe you consider jealously a character flaw, I do not. I believe
KM> that it is a natural feeling that goes right along with love.
LB> ARGH! Jealousy is a natural feeling that goes right along with a lack
LB> of trust, Ken!
Or a lack of belief in oneself.
... If the cops throw a net over me, am I legally in seine?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: churches
|Date: 14 Feb 96 06:43:05
EID:3b59 204e3560
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 08d156e4
REPLY: 1:157/200 4d020ae6
On (11 Feb 96) Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote to Preston Simpson...
KD> PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> PS>people might have still given at least lip service to choosing a
PS> PS>mate with good genetic qualities, that may have served a purpose.
PS> PS>But now, when the emphasis is so much more on looks than quality,
PS> PS>it's become kind of an evolutionary nightmare.
KD> PS>
PS> KDM> Makes sense to me. I'd prefer intelligence over looks any day,
PS> KDM> though.
KD> PS>
KD> PS>You and me both, but how many like-minded others of the opposite
KD> sex PS>do you think there are out there?
KD> Few, very few. And all the intelligent ones seem to date scum.
If they are dating scum, they aren't very intelligent. At times it appears that this echo doesn't afford much opportunity for
GR> atheists and theists to co-operate on achieving a common goal. But
at
GR> times we can come together and accomplish something good for all.
The MISSING children echo, and the associated GIFS of them have been around
fidonet for a long time. . . where have you been?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: ABORTION
|Date: 08 Feb 96 14:33:00
EID:3a09 20487420
ML> "You name"? The ghost of Glodbreg strikes again.
DC> Not a Glodberg, but a Dan or Al. Seems that Schroeder also has
DC> a hard time with "you", "your" and "you're".
Yo'mamma. Ya gotta be kidding me! Yer opinion don't bother me....
Me grammer and diction is POIFECT!
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: AL
|Date: 08 Feb 96 14:38:00
EID:5df6 204874c0
AS> walk to work, so I logged off fairly early. Besides, I had used up my
AS> time with Netscape that day (I get two hours a day through my
JB> Geez. I'm going through Concentric net. It's a little more than I
JB> wanted to pay but I've got UNLIMITED time on a local access
JB> number...and no time restrictions as to when I can call. Three in the
JB> morning or 3 in the afternoon...makes no difference. And if I had a
JB> 28.8 modem, there wouldn't even be a surcharge for using it. I get
JB> better transfer speeds with my 14.4 and Netscape than I do with my
JB> local boards. It's quite nice.
But the above is the best deal locally. There are unlimited time providers
but they are charging outrageous prices.
JB> Now, all I need is a faster processer, a (much) bigger hard drive and
JB> a tape backup. (and a new sound card and a bigger monitor and a color
JB> scanner and a color printer, etc,etc,etc) And more memory. But those
JB> may be coming soon.
I was going to upgrade. Now I'll be lucky to get a system like I
had...unless I really shop around.
... Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 08 Feb 96 14:48:00
EID:c209 20487600
LB> He has access to a computer from work, so he may be able to send off
a
LB> message himself here next week, but for some reason he doesn't think
LB> his boss will let him spend the time at work to keep caught up and
LB> reply with his usual fervor -- I just don't understand some employers!
LB> ;) With both him and Barb being heavy computer users, I'm sure they
LB> will get that item replaced as fast as they are financially able to
do
LB> so.
Aye, THERE's the rub!! Necessities first, computer aferwards.
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 08 Feb 96 14:51:00
EID:ff9a 20487660
JB> No, I never expected Jim to apologize for anything. I don't believe
he
JB> can. I was strictly talking about the situation that arose between
JB> Lynda and Mike, where an apology WAS made. With the disagreement
JB> carried out in such a public manner, the apology would have seemed less
JB> than sincere if it had been taken to a private manner of delivery.
I think an apology is always better public, unless there is some sort of
sensitivity to the issue. But if you make the fight public, you need to
make the apology public.
... The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.-H.P. Lovecraft
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KELSEY BJARNASON
|Sub: RE: ARK
|Date: 08 Feb 96 15:20:00
EID:ff8d 20487a80
KB> The EMP would have to be sufficient to wipe out significant parts
KB> of the world's computing power - which makes one wonder whether or
KB> not there would be anyone left to worry about it anyways.
Oh, it wouldn't be as hard as that. A nuclear weapon high enough not to
do
any serious damage could nevertheless give a nuclear pulse that could fry
some online surface computers.
KB> Further, your scenario presumes that harcdopy has gone the way of
KB> the dinosaur. Since many of us still prefer to read from paper
KB> rather than from screens, this seems unlikely at least in the
KB> near future.
Remember, though hardcopy decays. The whole point of the exercise in
imagination is to see what records would survive 2000 years. Most hard
editions can go up in smoke (just ask my FORMER paperback collection) and
other ways of damaging it.
KB> As to the virus, the idea is, well, silly. The major repositories
KB> of human knowledge would have to all be running not only the same
KB> operating system, but on the same platform. Not terribly likely.
Our current computer set-up, sure. But in two thousand years, are you sure
that many of the computers will not be united under a world goverment? I'm
not.
Kelsey, this is a legitimate concern. I don't have all my references in
front of me (although I remember TIME, at least, did a cover story on
cyberwars in the 21st century) but if they are imagining ways data could
be damaged in the next century--then apply it to another nineteen or so.
... No one could pin anything on Lady Godiva.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 12 Feb 96 16:26:00
EID:f320 204c8340
MG> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild assed guess
MG> by some scientist?
How many scientists do we need?
... Ancestors not found...do I really exist?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: EVIDENCE
|Date: 13 Feb 96 07:36:00
EID:728d 204d3c80
RB> If God is behind this 'life sustaining' universe, why is
RB> 99.9999 (and on and on) of it, devoid of life? That's like
RB> a terrestial god deciding to plant a garden and he puts
RB> ONE carrot in the middle of North America.
HP> Now Al is jumping up and down, pointing at a lone wild carrot in a
HP> field and shouting "SEE! THERE IS A GOD!" :-)
We know a minute corner of one field. And that disproves the rest of the
field having other carrots? Suuuuuuure.
However, you know as well as I do that a universe at least billions of
years old, with a large number of stars, are necessary for the supernova
remnants of some to spread heavier elements, which is necessary for any
sort of life we know of or can conceive of. If you have an expanding
universe, that implies a universe billions of light-years across. So your
and Marty's argument is dismissed as not thinking it through. Sorry.
I sincerely hope that there is other intelligent life out there. But
OTOH, nature (or God) wastes ten thousand sperm while one reaches an egg.
God is under no compulsion to practice economy. Nor do I feel there is
really anything that will keep life from spreading once formed. Earthlife
might bear the same relation to the rest of the cosmos that the first
unicellular organism did to the developement of earthlife.
... I have become comfortably numb.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: FIDO FOLLIES
|Date: 13 Feb 96 08:01:00
EID:83c0 204d4020
AS> Right. I DID finally get your post, so it seems to be going around
AS> the world to get to me...weird, since I'm as close as Nashville.
DW> I'm right up the damn street from him, and I have to carry on
DW> conversations with the snippets I see quoted in other people's
DW> messages.
Wonderful. I'll be glad when (A) Fido starts working again up to snuff and
(B) I have a computer I can use other than my work one.
... Famous last words #11: No, it's NOT loaded.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: FLOOD
|Date: 13 Feb 96 08:18:00
EID:877a 204d4240
HP> Did you know that Edgar Rice Burroughs related tales that John Carter
HP> told him? Is that eyewitness testimony that should be refuted by
HP> other eyewitness testimony?
Considering it was published in a magazine that specializes in presenting
fiction, not nonfiction, and has the little indica in the front of the
book, "THIS IS A WORK OF FICTION, yadda, yadda, yadda". Considering that
Captain Carter's observations of Barsoom contradict the pictures taken by
the probes that landed on Mars. And considering the fact that Captain
Carter could observe the hurtling moons of Barsoom from the polar caps,
which you CANNOT do from the polar caps of Mars. (See A GAZETEER'S GUIDE
TO BARSOOM, which enumerates among other things, the differences between
Mars and Barsoom. Phobos and Deimos have close orbits and are small, and
can only be observed from the MArtian equivelent of the equator or
temperate regions. Considering that Captain Carter's account says that the
eggs layed by the Barsoomians grow AFTER being layed and before they are
hatched---thereby violating conservation laws, since sunlight would be
insufficient for growth of that magnitude (as mentioned in Farmer's
LAVALITE WORLD)...considering ALL THAT, don't you think it's time you
dropped the strawman?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: HEAVENLY DAZED
|Date: 13 Feb 96 09:27:00
EID:8dc3 204d4b60
AS> the anthropic principle evidence.
HP> ROFL!
I know, I know, you would prefer a "I don't know" even from the clear
pattern discerned. You SURE you didn't serve on the OJ jury?
... I'm patient with stupidity but not with those proud of it.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: HEAVENLY DAZED
|Date: 13 Feb 96 09:31:00
EID:8dc3 204d4be0
AS>> The LOGICAL alternatives are (1)
HP> Al trying to limit your choices for you again?
Only to the logical ones. You can have the illogical ones, Hec.
(PS. As you will note I mentioned I would be happy to entertain a sixth
laternative, if someone will supply it. Perhaps you FINALLY would like to
do so...?)
MG> Where is your evidence for design?
HP> In his head, of course. He doesn't understand it, so gods musta
HP> dunnit.
(Gentle smile.) So sorry that George Ellis disagrees with you.
... Gentlemen, let's broaden our minds
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KELSEY BJARNASON
|Sub: HEAVENLY DAZED
|Date: 13 Feb 96 09:42:00
EID:36cf 204d4d40
AS> It is NOT a matter of life adapting to the conditions of the universe.
AS> If the laws had been different, there would be no intelligent life,
and
AS> in most of the changes, no life at all.
KB> Having been somewhat removed from these parts for a while, I might
KB> have missed this. Did you ever get around to supporting your above
KB> assertion? If so, how?
I have at the moment a list of some fifteen coincidences (you will notice
that at least one thread has "Coincidence Seven" which started from it)
to
go from. I would be happy to repost the original ten plus the additional
five I can make a good case for. You may remember that Curry issued a
challenge to me in mid-summer to prove such, and varied ten constants at
random. I rather easily showed that such would result in not a universe
that could support life but a universe of rather rapidly expanding
antihydrogen gas.
The thing is, Kelsey, many of them involve changes that would NOT result
in the production of higher elements than hydrogen, helium, and lithium.
We know the chemical makeup and how those elements interact with each
other pretty well, and they simply do not interact with each other in such
a way that would cause sufficient chemical complexity for life to result.
Many other changes would result in stars not shining at all, and life
needs a dependable outside power source (otherwise it would not be a
condition of negative entropy, one of the telltale signs of life) to
develop...one that stays constant over hundreds of millions of years.
Let me know if you want me to repost them. No problem. I luckily
duplicated it on my computer at work.
... And on the 8th day God said, "Ok, Murphy, you're in charge."
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW, STAAL
|Date: 13 Feb 96 10:07:00
EID:ae51 204d50e0
FR> Why don't you and Al just do what every other Christanic cultist does
FR> and kill each other, allowing your intellectual superiors to talk
FR> rationally among themselves?
"Every" other Christanic cultist? Tsk, tsk. I realize, Fred, you're
trolling and we needn't take ANYTHING you say seriously, (Funny, I value
my opinions enough to state them rather than pretending a position I don't
believe.) but you might actually find that just a few Christians DON'T die
in holy wars. But then, we are used to your hyperbole and your (assumed)
antiChristanic bigotry. Of course, to hear you tell it, EVERY other
Christian dies in assassinating each other. Or do you perhaps want to
withdraw the "every"?
PS. Do you really think it is "rational" to wish others to kill each
other? Do tell us, oh "intellectual superior".
FR> Thanks.
No problem. My PLEASURE.
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: RE: HI
|Date: 13 Feb 96 10:13:00
EID:0935 204d51a0
HP> Gee, Al, there's a simple explanation staring at you here. Perhaps
no
HP> gods ever interfered with history. Perhaps that's all in the human
HP> imagination, much as the god-like computer in "I Have No Mouth and I
HP> Must Scream" was in Harlan Ellison's imagination, eh?
That's a possibility, Hec. It's also a possibility you are dreaming all
this in a coma after a car accident ten years ago and nothing that has
happened since is real.
AS> Do I think that storm was sent by God? I can't say for sure, of course.
AS> But it wouldn't suprise me.
HP> ROFL! Al, storms happen all the time -- no gods required. You're
HP> falling into the silly old xtian fundy habit of claiming "if it's good
HP> it's god, if it's bad it's satan" for no apparent reason at all.
Could be. That MIGHT be why I said, "I can't say for sure, of course, but
it wouldn't suprise me," above.
... Agnostic dyslexic insomniacs at night: Is there a Dog?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: RYAN SHAW
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 13 Feb 96 10:22:00
EID:9a36 204d52c0
RS> There's no doubt in my mind that the 12 Jewish bankers that control
RS> the entire liberalist media brainwashing machine are in bed with the
RS> TSG -- that's Telepathic Shadown Government.
The thing is, Anthony Grigor-Scott will take you SERIOUSLY.
... Cry, "bother!" and let slip the poohs of war.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 13 Feb 96 10:34:00
EID:81a7 204d5440
LB> but your "brother" IS "that way"?
LB> Jim, quit hiding. It's pointless.
MH> Psst. He's not Jim. This much I know for sure.
Just curious, Mike. Because I used to think Lou was a seperate person. How
do you know? Have you met them?
... "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: AARON BOYDEN
|Sub: LIBRARIES
|Date: 13 Feb 96 10:38:00
EID:6b5f 204d54c0
AB> So which are the good Christian apologists? I'm a philosopher, and
AB> I've studied Plantinga and Swinburne along with several lesser
AB> thinkers, to list just the moderns. I hope they weren't the ones you
AB> were thinking of.
MERE CHRISTIANITY and GOD IN THE DOCK, by C.S. Lewis. ORTHODOXY, by G.K.
CHesterton.
... That's not line noise... My modem's speaking in tounges!!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ANTHONY GRIGOR-SCOTT
|Sub: MARIA RUSSEL IN THE NEW_W
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:11:00
EID:a3b2 204d6960
AS> definitely. But (gentle smile) no concrete PROOF of such a
AS> conspiracy, only rumors and paranoia. JUST like the "Elders of Zion"
AS> and all the other things that people turn to when they feel that
AS> history is not going their way...it's all a conspiracy.
AG> Certainly it's all a conspiracy. So were World Wars I and II, and so
AG> is World War III - all age-old Illuminati conspiracies. Fortunately
AG> nothing came of them.
(Uplifted eyebrow.) Except that untold millions were thrown into misery
with World Wars 1 and II.(To all) This is the difference between an
innovator and a paranoid delusionist. An innovator sees the world in a
different angle. A delusionist does not see the real world, or real
history, at all.
AG> Where is the democracy in the USA? There's one void. And where is the
AG> free Press in the USA? Aside from a few tiny publications, there's no
AG> free press in the USA. look around you!
Hmmm. The Illuminati control the USA's "democracy"? And they ALSO control
the USA's "free press"? Then, obviously, the Watergate thing against Nixon
would have never happened, because they would pit one part of the
Illumaniti against the other, when the media exposed Nixon's chicanery,
and exposed facts that eventually drove him from office.
AG> They have! Go read them. Who do you think exposes this material?
About the Illuminati conspiracy? Crackpots, mostly. They are NOT endorsed
by the majority of reporters. Not to say the majority is always right. But
there needs to be persuasive evidence to show such a wide-ranging
conspiracy.
AS> In all that time NOBODY cracked? Nobody fessed up?
AG> Read Anthony Sutton's Books ... he was an insider. There are stacks
of
AG> books written by authorities and any amount of material available from
AG> the US Congress and Senate, not to speak of Grand Juries. Read, read,
AG> read.
Thank you. I am practically a reading fanatic, and one nice thing, you DO
provide me names to reference. I will indeed read Sutton's books.
AS> The MAFIA doesn't have security that tight.
AG> It's a far smaller fish that these.
Yes. And the wider-ranging the conspiracy is, the more likely it will be
exposed.
AS> I know, I know, you will quote me crank source after crank source.
AS> Ever wonder why TIME, NEWSWEEK, CNN, The New York Times, the London
AS> Times, etc. give NO CREDENCE to such a silly theory?
AG> But they DO. Read, read, read!
Oh???? TIME graces my mailbox, and I have occasional access to NEWSWEEK,
and certainly to CNN. Any particular issues I should look for?
AS> And NONE of the numerous investigative reporters that work under
AS> them--and surely they can't ALL be bought off, if you spread the
AS> secret too far, it's not a secret--none of them wonder why their
AS> numerous stories exposing the Illuminati haven't been published.
AG> But they HAVE been published! That is one of the main sources of
AG> information.
And the facts haven't been confirmed? Because, Anthony, I assure you that
most reporters give no credence to such theories.
AS> There are free presses, too, small ones, crank ones, e-zines, etc.
AS> And none have produced the ironclad proof of this "conspiracy"? IN
AS> OVER 200 YEARS???
AG> Oh yes they have.
Oh. IRONCLAD proof? Fascinating. Trot it out.
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SCOT BEAR
|Sub: RE: NO I'M NOT DEAD
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:16:00
EID:09bb 204d6a00
SB> I had the trial. They plea-bargained the original ticket down but
SB> would not get rid of it. (No points off my license though...) My EX-
SB> company fired me the day after. Seems they never gave the lawyer any
SB> more than the original info and held onto any other stuff that they
SB> found out from the investigation. They also neglected to mention that
SB> they *settled* the case in December...(You can imagine how I felt when
SB> I heard that...)
SB> ANYway, they didn't care whether their appointed lawyer won or lost
SB> the case because they had already settled it to *their* satisfaction.
SB> [i.e..$$$$$$$$$$] I was just a millstone that they wanted to be rid
SB> of. I called another lawyer that specializes in this kind of case and,
SB> after a few days, they refused to take it saying that "it would not
be
SB> financially-wise"...[i.e. they weren't going to get enough] I called
SB> the legal aid society and they said that they wouldn't touch it.
SB> I have borrowed to the hilt from all my friends and my relatives got
SB> none, soooooooooo I have made arrangements with my landlord to give
me
SB> a coupla months and he said that it was no problem. (surprise) Went
to
SB> a few other companies and was told the same thing: "Your record is not
SB> good."[i.e. Blacklisting] So, my former boss who works for one of the
SB> other companies (and I got along with her until she quit a while ago)
SB> said that they would like to but the word is that I am "poison" even
SB> though I have ONE ticket (4 points ) on my record. She was really
SB> sorry but her orders were to not hire me---even though she would if
SB> she hadn't been told by her boss. :(
SB> I am investigating a few other leads but I don't know what I am going
SB> to do if they don't come through.
SB> Got a spare $500? [smile]
(Wince). Not the best time to ask me for THAT, as you might notice from
my
story of the fire. Sorry, wish I could.
My own company has been great. They have collected clothes and even some
money to help out, and paid me for the days I was gone (from mid-Tuesday
until the following Monday) as if I were there, not taking it out of sick
pay or vacation time or anything.
Suggestion, Scot. If you're a driver, and want to make good money,
perhaps you could go into the trucking business? Killer hours, but they
make good money.
Just a suggestion. I'll keep thinking. Would relocation be an option?
... For once I'm at a loss for words. Mark down the date!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:18:00
EID:3d02 204d6a40
SA> Well, I usually get a "thank you" when I hold open a door for
SA> anyone, and in turn thank those who hold open a door for me.
SA> Then again, I don't live in the US, where people seem to think
SA> doing nice things is somehow weird. :\
Well, YOU guys have Renfew of the Mounted, York of the Mounties, Dudley
Do-Right. OUR fantasy figures are Dirty Harry and Charles Bronson. That
tells you something right there...
... Insanity runs in my family; it practically gallops...
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KAREN DAVIS
|Sub: ONE STAAL
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:26:00
EID:df4d 204d6b40
KD> Odin is just as valid a god as yours.
Don't be Thor and tell him to Frigga off. Go once more into the Frey and
Sif through his statements to try to find what he's REALLY saying.
... Not tonight, dear. I have a modem.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: PERSEVERE
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:31:00
EID:dfd5 204d6be0
AS> haven't exactly made cultural history, have we? But the Catholics have
AS> a 1500 year head start!
JB> Well, you also have to consider Luther and Calvin's stand on the arts,
JB> too. Both thought them idolatrous and blasphemous. The Reformation was
JB> characterized by the destruction of statues, paintings, etc. by those
JB> religious leaders, wishing to remove the influence of the 'Roman
JB> church', who saw art as a tool of the devil.
True. But some of the English churches are still monuments to beauty. And
some works of literary art have still been produced.
... Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: PRESTON'S TEMPER TANTRUM.
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:35:00
EID:dd23 204d6c60
JH> If it's not too much trouble, please do.
JH>
JH> I've a hunch it's not Lovecraft at all, but Robert Bloch or one of
JH> the other 'minor prophets'.
August Derleth used it quite a lot.
... Cthulhu loves you...with a fava beans and nice Chianti.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ROBERT JACKSON
|Sub: SATANISTA, NO! PINDEHO, S
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:52:00
EID:06f2 204d6e80
AS> interesting case for what he says. Has an excellent two-volume book
on
AS> GREEK MYTHS I have at home, and I believe wrote I, CLAUDIUS, which was
AS> made into a Masterpiece Theatre series which was very memorable.
RJ> One of the best things to come out of the BBC. It, and the
RJ> companion volume "Claudius the God", are probably still my
RJ> most-read novel(s)--I've read 'em five or six times since
RJ> I was about 8.
Y'know, though I've read WHITE GODDESS and his GREEK MYTHS, I never read
his two Claudius novels, even though I was blown away by the BBC
productions. Need to look them up.
AS> Those who follow matriarchal religions, as many of the breeds of
AS> Wicca do, think he's the straight stuff. I'm not so sure. But his
AS> scholarship is not to be despised.
RJ> Yeah, he's a pretty eminent scholar. Of course, it seems that
RJ> those matriarchal societies had a rather unpleasant penchant
RJ> for human sacrifice and bloodletting that ranked a little
RJ> below the Aztecs, based on my reading of the commentaries in
RJ> "The Greek Myths".
RJ> At this point, the "female-centered" religions send out
RJ> *their* armies of apologists.
Yes. I am not as sure, quite frankly, there WAS a female-centered
religion, or that the oldest ones were, anyway. True, there are those
obese female figures scattered throughout prehistory circa 10 thousand
years ago (my references are now ashes, so if I misremember, no one hold
it against me) but the Middle Ages probably had more images of Mary than
of Jesus, and an archeologist judging SOLELY from that would probably
judge the Middle Ages to be a female-dominated religion era. And Islamics
could not depict such images at all, male or female...would they conclude
that the Islamics did not believe in a god? The female figure scattered
throughout Europe MAY be a supreme goddess, OR it might be a female figure
who is subsidiary to a male god. Either is possible. I do not dispute
those who think it is a female supreme goddess, but I just keep an open
mind that there might be another explanation. (A prehistoric Barbie
cult... )
RJ> Another Graves book I'd like to read sometime is "Count Beli-
RJ> sarius", which is about a 6th-century Byzantine soldier. I
RJ> think that like "I, Claudius", it's also based on real his-
RJ> torical information.
Sounds excellent.
... I agreed to suspend disbelief, not hang it 'til it died!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARILYN BURGE
|Sub: SCIENTISTS
|Date: 13 Feb 96 14:02:00
EID:f9d1 204d7040
MB> Paul Davies seems to be a bit of a creationist poster boy around
MB> here. I think Mikey has cited him being awarded the "prestigeous"
MB> Templeton Prize as some kind of "proof" that Davies has mainstream
MB> acceptance.
Just out of curiosity, you ever READ Davies? If not, you might. Just as
I
should respectfully back off when I haven't read Spong, perhaps you should
read Davies before calling him a "creationist poster boy".
THE MIND OF GOD is probably the most recent on this subject, but all of
his science books are good.
... If it's too good to be true, our taxes must be paying for it.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: SPRING IS SPRUNG
|Date: 13 Feb 96 14:11:00
EID:ce25 204d7160
JB> Well, you better set your internal clock better or you have a funny
JB> idea of when GH day is. Your post is dated 1/29...and, as far as I
JB> know, GH day is 2/2. (I should know...it's my anniversary)
JB> Wait, I'll capture the header for you so you can see what I mean.
JB> Ä Area: Holy_Smoke!
JB> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Msg#:
JB> 28242 Date: 01-29-96 18:33
JB> From: Al Schroeder Read: Yes
JB> Replied: No To: Judith Bandsma Mark:
JB> Subj: SPRING IS SPRUNG
JB> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
JB> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
My internal clock. I'll fix it. Thanks.
... This tagline does not exist. Provide evidence otherwise.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KEITH PACHULSKI
|Sub: THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE A
|Date: 13 Feb 96 14:36:00
EID:e78b 204d7480
-> And early Christianity was considered a "woman's religion" by the
-> pagans, much as some regard Wicca now. And the fact that Christians
KP>Wrong..check your facts...Wicca is not "considered" a female
KP> religion.
Notice the "some" above. Notice I did not say it WAS. Some consider
Christianity a "male" religion. And there too, I think they are wrong.
KP> The vast majority are not priestesses...it is equally balanced. Before
KP> you start babbling make sure you have your facts straight.
That was the opinion of a local Wiccan friend (male) who used to bitch
about that. Maybe it was only locally here in the South. If you are
offended, I apologize.
KP> metaphor. Even when we say God is neither truly male or female, but
->
KP> spirit (as expressed in the Bible) we really don't know what we say.
->
KP>The bible is a fairy tale........
So is true love to some people. But I have been happily married for
fifteen years now. I have many Wiccan friends here, and I try to respect
their beliefs. But do you REALLY think a belief in a God/dess and
Cernunnos (if that is the type of Wicca you follow) is so much more
reasonable?
An excellent book, BTW, about what we know about the ancient Wiccans,
their possible survival (or not) during the Dark Ages, and the growth of
the modern Wicca movement, is Ronald Hutton's PAGAN RELIGIONS OF THE
ANCIENT BRITISH ISLES, written in 1991, miticulously researched, and I
think would be of interest to all thinking Wiccans. It has been quoted in
Wiccan journals, although it exposes a few modern myths of Wicca since
Gardner's time, like the number of people killed in the Witch Hunts (still
horrible, but not quite as extensive as some figures that are being
bandied around) and some interesting thoughts on the survival of Wicca
between the rise of Christianity and Gardner's time. Not an easy read, but
with studies and/or archeological references for practically anything he
says.
... Actually it's not replying that takes time, it's choosing a tagline.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KEITH PACHULSKI
|Sub: TOODLES...
|Date: 13 Feb 96 14:57:00
EID:48c5 204d7720
-> JS> To those I might have offended, I reget that. To those who perce
-> JS> offense, it wasn't my intent. I pray that in that day of days, G
-> JS> will have mercy on our souls: the atheist/pagans for not heeding
-> JS> message that was clearly stated with boldness and unshrinking ho
-> JS> and on me for the mistakes I have made here while striving to ma
-> JS> the truth.
->
-> Well said. And one of the reasons I regret we never knew the REAL Ji
-> Staal, just the personas you chose to let us know. Because as everyo
-> here will notice, THIS message was much clearer and lucid than many
-> have received.
-> It is our loss that you hid the real Jim for so long.
KP> Tsk tsk..once again they hide behind the book and the men who ware
KP> responsible for millions of deaths and caused the oppression of women
KP> and children worldwide. Oh fear the pagans for they know the truth and
KP> will not succumb to such idiocy as the book.
Excuse me? I was talking about the lucidity of Jim's statement as opposed
to his other statements, where he deliberately postured as dumber than he
is.
The pagans of the ancient Celtic cultures in some instances had human
sacrifice...not always, not necessarily widespread, but it certainly
happened. The Moloch-worshippers--we have unearthed tophits, in Carthage
and other places, that proves that the Bible's and Roman history are
perfectly correct concerning their habit of child sacrifice. The famed
nontheist historian, Robin Lane Fox, spoke about how the growing Christian
movement in the Roman Empire saved many female children from infanticide,
given the pagan practice of often exposing female children as unwanted...
There are two sides to every question. Perhaps you should consider the
other side.
... I am intolerant only of the intolerant.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: PRESTON SIMPSON
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:03:00
EID:cbc3 204d7860
DW> Unfortunately, Al and his family had an accident last night. Part of
DW> his house caught fire, and his computer was one of the things damaged.
DW> No one was hurt, though, so he ought to be back soon.
PS> I'm glad that no one was hurt. Sheesh. Anything that us godless
PS> atheists and agnostics can do to help out?
We're slowly getting back up to snuff. Got a microwave yesterday (the old
one must have been on the same circuit as the washer dryer, it was our one
kitchen casualty. If you don't count several hundred dollars' worth of
food.)
DW> I don't think this is a Sheneism, but I'll let each of you come to
DW> your own conclusions.
PS> I agree with your conclusion. Al doesn't strike me as the kind to
PS> spout such garbage.
When I log off for good, I'll simply say, "It's been fun, but I said all
I
have to say (ten times over) and have other things to do. Have a nice
life." Or words to that effect. I don't think anyone would accuse me of
running off.
... Please, God, not *another* learning experience!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:04:00
EID:c043 204d7880
DW> Oddly enough, immediately after downloading mail today, I got a phone
DW> call from Al. I thought he was some kind of bill collecter and first,
DW> and started racking my brain trying to figure out just which bill it
DW> was that I'd forgotten to pay. (He just *sounds* like a collection
DW> agent of some sort :))
Guilty conscience, obviously.
DW> Unfortunately, Al and his family had an accident last night. Part of
DW> his house caught fire, and his computer was one of the things damaged.
DW> No one was hurt, though, so he ought to be back soon.
DW> I don't think this is a Sheneism, but I'll let each of you come to
DW> your own conclusions.
I wish it was. TRUST me.
DW> I'm also not going to go in for the obvious gag.
I'll do it for you; I was taken off-line by an act of God.
... Now, Here's John Bobbitt with a few words about Crazy Glue.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ROB BURCHAM
|Sub: CHRISTMAS
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:05:00
EID:f368 204d78a0
RB> I'm sure there are well-meaning ministers. Hell, there's
RB> probably well-meaning used car salesmen.
But they get fired quickly.
RB> I admit that when I learn a person is a theist, they immediately
RB> lose credibility. For that reason, Lewis, Chesterson, et al
RB> would not be my first choice for a philosophical study. They
RB> may be intellectual GIANTS but that one 'flaw' is like a stain
RB> that won't come out.
Well, Rob, that's great, and certainly your privilege, but what about
Immanual Kant? He was certainly a theist or a deist...believed in a God
to
satisfy the need for justice in this world. Knew it could not be proved
empirically, but needed to make sense out of the categorical imperitive.
RB> You may feel the same about atheists (which is your right).
Actually, I DON'T. I enjoy David Hume and Richard Dawkins, Asimov and
Ellison, every bit as much as I enjoy the theists.
Rob, I say this in all seriousness. You grow more by reading people you
disagree with than with people you agree with. It's reading the objections
that makes a mind and stand stronger, not the agreements.
Another reason to log into here.
I have every sympathy with the skeptic. I think they are wrong, but I
certainly understand if God does manifeist Himself overtly, the
skepticism.
... "I think thou doth protest too much."
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ROB BURCHAM
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:11:00
EID:c8af 204d7960
RB> Assuming the story is somewhat accurate, does the behavior
RB> of Jesus rule out delusion? If your megalomania is that of
RB> a loving and sacrificing god, you're compelled to play the
RB> part. (See: Buddhist monks who set themselves on fire)
Two answers: many have noted that the God expressed in the views of Jesus
is more loving and compassionate than you might expect given His track
record in the Old Testament. Even Paul mentions the difference between
living under the Law and under Grace. So if He were just PLAYING the part
of the OT Jehovah, then He certainly put His own spin on the part. He not
only took the part, but extended and built upon it, to the point where
most Jews did not agree He WAS a good imitation.
True, Buddhist monks have set themselves on fire---although as I
remember it, it was more of a political plea for nonviolence and a stop
to
war, rather than following any true religious doctrine of Buddha (as in
anything applying to the spiritual side of life, although certainly
nonviolence is a doctrine of Buddha's). But notice; Jesus was content to
be led to the slaughter, as it were, but He didn't hang HIMSELF. In fact,
from MY point of view, I see something rather ironic. In practically every
other mythology, and in most of my religion, God judges man. This is the
only regligous story I can think of where a God submitted to the judgement
of Man. No other god played so magnificently fair with mankind.
RB> Slaves should be eternally offended by the constant comparisons
RB> with fetuses. I don't see how even the sternest of slavemasters
RB> could confuse the obvious if he was presented with a 20 year old,
RB> healthy slave and 1 inch fetus, then asked "Which one has more
RB> value? Which one is more human?"
Rob, if a slave had accidentally jostled the wife of the slaveowner too
hard, and she miscarried as a result, do you REALLY think that the slave
wouldn't be fearful for his life? Because that would have been a POTENTIAL
"master" that his clumsiness "killed". Maybe it's because I'm older than
many here, but I can remember when a drunk driver hitting a car with a
pregnant woman, and they debated whether to charge him with two deaths,
not one.
AS> Well...yeah. That's what they did believe, after all. My wife once
had a
AS> very early miscarriage, and what she passed could be put into a pill
AS> container. But when I looked into it, it didn't look like a fetus.
AS> It looked like a baby forming. The two phrases mean the same thing,
but
AS> have a world of different connotations. But I can't talk. I paid for
the
AS> abortion of a female relative when I was younger.
RB> I absolve you of all 'sin'. The fundy crowd would have you
RB> and her think you were murderers. You did nothing wrong.
RB> And if the circumstances for raising a child were poor,
RB> you probably did a lot of good.
Funny thing is, I have more second thoughts afterwards. Far afterwards.
Years later, she married, and tried for years to conceive and couldn't.
Finally, after nearly ten years, she started conceiving, and now has two
kids. She wondered if anything about the abortion could have kept her from
conceiving (even though it was legal at the time, it had JUST been made
legal in the last year or two). Would it have been a poor time for her to
be a mother? Yes. But sometimes people grow in adversity, and no one can
say before who will grow and who will break. I DEFINITELY am glad she
didn't marry the father, who later hit her--once--and she left right then
rather than stick around (and made a six hour call to France on HIS phone
card afterwards. She gets mad AND even.). But yeah, part of me wonders
if I am a murderer, or an accomplice to murder.
AS> Certainly tribal. I'm not sure the racial arrogance...remember, even
Jesus
AS> talked of Gentiles as "dogs". So the Caucasian gentiles were looked
down
AS> by the Jews of His day.
RB> Jesus called the Gentiles "dogs"?
Yes. Which is not uncommon in that time. Remember the woman who came up
to
him, the Gentile woman, and begged a miracle, when He said it was not
fitting that the dogs should eat from the table---and she answered that
even dogs eat from the scraps under the table?
AS> To keep it spread, certainly, unless He wants to baby-sit us forever,
AS> appear again to each generation, etc.
RB> He could have been the central figure in ALL tribal religions.
RB> They all could have had a history that included a (1) son of
RB> God that (2) took human sin upon himself and (3) died, that
RB> they could have eternal life. If that scenario is so important,
RB> it should have been part of ALL tribal histories. The favoritism
RB> and limitations to ONE tribe is contrary to the concept of an
RB> all encompassing god.
But notice that MUCH of the pattern is repeated, in mind-numbing
regularity, in culture after culture, as Campbell showed in his HERO OF
A
THOUSAND FACES. The dying god who is resurrected is done in culture after
culture. It's as if the myths were sent to prepare us for the reality. The
other myths that fit the pattern happened long ago and far away in a
mythical golden age, but Jesus, who fulfills the pattern, exists in a
specific place and time. It's as if in Him history and myth meet...that
the other myths is either our hunger for the sort of thing that Jesus
fulfilled (as an adolescent yearns for sex without necessarily having a
clear conception of it) or the myths, many of which are beautiful in their
own way, were sent from God ("every good and perfect thing comes from
God") to prepare us for the reality.
RB> Instead, we have as many myths as we do cultures. That indicates
RB> that God is curiously limited in his approach or the development
RB> of religion is a common human function.
See above. The common pattern, instead, is quite revealing.
AS> Evidently yes; so one can only conclude that He cannot hold them
AS> responsible for what they cannot help.
RB> God couldn't foresee that different races and cultures would
RB> be reluctant to accept one particular middle eastern religion?
RB> Why couldn't his 'message' be conveyed in a way that was
RB> geographically and racially neutral? A 'chosen people' is not
RB> the surest way to reach ALL the world.
I'm not so sure. By linking His message to a particular people, He used
them as a template to develop His word, to saturate one people with His
message, to see what would happen.
RB> You don't think the trinity might be a construct of HUMAN
RB> minds? Wasn't there a lot of arguing many centuries ago
RB> as to just where Jesus fit in the picture?
Oh, of course. And I am not convinced we have it right. I find it hard to
reconcile some statements any other way, but if there IS an infinite God,
anything we say must be incomplete about Him. Call it a compromise that
MIGHT be true.
AS> Hey, I have some Welsh blood, and trust me, sperm. Humping the BACK
is not
AS> something we are famous for...
RB> Can you sing "Delilah" like Tom Jones?
I have a good speaking voice ("bill collector" indeed!) but a lousy
singing voice. And few women throw their panties at me.
RB> Here's my latest addition to the 'practical answers for a
RB> resurrected Jesus' file: Jesus had a TWIN! That's right,
RB> either by deception or coincidence, Jesus' twin shows up
RB> in town on the third day. The bible mentions how Jesus
RB> wasn't recognized at first. That's because the twin wasn't
RB> an exact match, but very close. And when disciples are
RB> grasping for saviors, 'close' will do. Whaddya think?
I did a variation. That the resurrected Jesus was JAMES, Jesus' brother,
who resembled him. The disciples thought Peter was too full of himself,
so
they pulled a cruel trick and made James dress up like Jesus, and played
along with the gag. Peter took it TOO seriously, and got them involved in
stuff that they couldn't recant or admit the hoax...
But not bad, Rob. It MIGHT have been a look alike brother. It doesn't
explain the Ascension or some of the other details, but you can say that
was added later. But what happened to the lookalike?
AS> Or maybe...where dieties are perceived. There may be a difference.
RB> And THAT is our fundamental difference. You believe we
RB> 'perceive' the reality of God while I think we 'generate'
RB> that 'reality'.
Yes. You feel about dieties as I do about Grigor-Scott's Illuminati.
That's okay. But just be open to the possibility that those who talk of
transcendent experiences might actually be describing something real.
... It is illogical to expect a universe to exist.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ANTHONY GRIGOR-SCOTT
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 13 Feb 96 15:19:00
EID:a2dc 204d7a60
AS> Is it charity to call one a fool?
AG> When speaking of you, it is both cahrity and truth.
Why, Anthony, I do believe you are losing your temper. Too bad Jesus said
to call one's spiritual brother a fool puts one in danger of the "fires
of
hell". Not that I wish that for you. But I wish you would attend to Jesus'
warnings and words rather than your own bigotry and paranoia.
(Gentle smile.) And your own words condemn you before the Lord, Anthony.
PS. "cahrity"??
... When subtlety fails us, we must resort to cream pies.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 14 Feb 96 08:10:00
EID:74a1 204e4140
LB> I called him last night -- just to update this msg. slightly, he
LB> sounded a bit
LB> tired (understandably) but in good spirits. The major damage was to
DC> That's good... After all, I'm only a "hateful heathen" that cares!
No one doubts the caring part. But no, we now have more stuff to look
through than we know what to do with. A friend of mine is going to loan
us
an old XT until we can get a new system--not much, but it will do Dos, so
we will still be able to send messages and stuff.
LB> same layout as the original, so the boys are not as stressed out as
LB> they might
DC> Had to think about that a bit, but I remembered that the boys were
DC> autistic.... Sounds like they either lucked out, or the landlords
DC> fully understood their situation. Nice to see at least a little
DC> bit is going right for them.
Trust me. It could have been a LOT worse. One of Barb's email friends runs
a laundry, and we got this big box from UPS filled with clothes, my
friends at work have been donating clothes, our church, ditto.
(Dave or Judith, someone who can reach Dan, send this on to him,
please.)
... Ask every question. Question every answer.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: ALL THE GODS WORDS...
|Date: 14 Feb 96 08:20:00
EID:0d13 204e4280
FR> His hatred of woman is typical of what Christianity has historically
FR> taught ideologically as well as what the Christanic cult teaches
FR> today.
Is that why nontheist historian Robin Lane Fox said the Romans considered
Christianity a "women's religion" and pointed out that the Christian
discouragement of infanticide resulted in a more equal split between the
sexes? That before that, female children were often exposed as unwanted,
resulting in a preponderance of males in adulthood?
Just wondering.
(PS. The quick and easy answers are not always the best ones. True,
there is much to be deplored about the attitudes some Christians take
towards women. But compared to some other cultures--say, the Essenes, or
the early Norsemen--they were certainly more advanced in that respect.)
... Deja Moo - the feeling you've heard this bull before
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: BOOK HIM, DANNO
|Date: 14 Feb 96 08:55:00
EID:5c06 204e46e0
FR> "Prometheus was not sentenced unjustly."
as> Oh. It's allright to have a vulture rip out your
as> entrails for creating men and teaching them how to use fire?
FR> As usual the Christanic death cultist decides not to understand the
FR> reasons why myths are created.
No, Fred. You simply had the bare statement. It is not my fault that you
chose to make it obscure, nor is there any "decision" involved in trying
to decipher your imprecision.
FR> The Prometheus myth is the same myth as the "Adam, Lilith, and Eve"
FR> myth as well as the same as the "Pandora" myth and the "Lucipher"
FR> myth. All of them attempt to explain the same thing; specifically why
FR> the gods and goddesses punish humanity for no apparent reason. The
FR> fact that humanity's hard lot in life doesn't _have_ a reason wasn't
FR> good enough for people so they invented myths.
FR> And they concocted deities like yours.
Well, at least it's an explanation for your statement, thanks.
as> You seem to be quoting someone, but don't recognize it offhand.
FR> Yep. I'm quoting myself. Learn from your intellectual superiors.
Oh, I AM. I've read a fascinating book by Martin Gardner--perhaps you
remember him, the person who used to do the "Mathematical Games" section
in Scientific American?---called the WHYS OF A PHILOSOPHICAL SCHRIVENER
about why, although he is a renowned skeptic on psi phenomena and the
occult in general, is nevertheless a philosophical theist and believes in
an afterlife. From there, he is directing my attention to Immanual Kant,
who also felt a diety was required to satisfy the justice inherent in the
categorical imperative, to provide an afterlife in which the justice which
is denied in this world is granted. If you like, you might see it as a
more sophisticated version of the above, whether myths or no.
I'm learning quite a lot from my intellectual superiors.
YOU, on the other hand, seem to have the anal-retentive feature of
putting your own statements in quotes. Which is one reason I don't class
you as an intellectual superior, but rather, as a trolling, snide,
arrogant anti-Christianic bigot. But of course, you told us not to take
you seriously.
And BELIEVE me, I'm not.(Gentle smile.)
as> And it seems---rather irrelevant. Any explanation?
FR> Try learning from your very inability to discern the message.
Try learning from your inability to make your message CLEAR, Frederico.
And don't blame your poor writing style on the reader.
... Illiterate? .... Write for FREE help!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: CIRCULAR REASONING
|Date: 14 Feb 96 09:07:00
EID:9db3 204e48e0
FR> If you're a Christian then that means there's a 33% chance of you
FR> being a pedophile. Statistically speaking, that is. Christanic death
FR> cult clergy is the single highest profession of child rapists in the
FR> United States.
Sources, please? For you are saying a good third of Christian clergy are
pedophiles. I would like to see some backup of the above.
... "I think not," said Descartes; and promptly disappeared.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: DETROIT
|Date: 14 Feb 96 09:11:00
EID:298c 204e4960
JH> Your Detroit experience reminds me of a cartoon I saw once in
JH> Hustler. It consists of nothing more than a highway sign against
JH> an urban background. The sign reads:
JH> Welcome to Detroit
JH> Pussy
JH> Drugs
JH> Ammo
JH> Next Three Exits
I think the question of your gender has just been answered, JJ. How many
females look at HUSTLER?
BTW, today is Valentine's Day. How you doing? Has Asmodiddly had any
effect? (Yeah, RIGHT!)
... I have become comfortably numb.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ANDREW MASTEN
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 14 Feb 96 09:33:00
EID:6f64 204e4c20
KB> The alternative view suggests a much more rational approach: "We
KB> do not know that there are other forms of life even possible.
KB> However, until we demonstrate that they *cannot* exist, we must
KB> admit the possibility that they do, or may, exist."
AM>
AM> Okay, until you can demonstrate that God does not exist, you must
AM> admit the possibility that He does, or may, exist. Is that more
AM> rational?
I was WONDERING if you would notice that. That in their criticisms of
you they are giving much more latitude for unevidenced types of life, but
then demanding an "evidenced mechanism" for a diety. Not carbon or silicon
or methane life, but life in radically different conditions, say without
any heavy elements or any stars shining. TRULY different life, much more
unfamiliar than what we usually encounter in science ficiton.
AM> No, I'm just postulating reality as we know it, not as it woulda
AM> coulda shoulda been. The slam against fundies has been the use of
AM> unprovable unverifiable postulates, now you are using the same kind
AM> of rhetoric against my argument.
Excellent! Again, I agree. It is certainly permissable to postulate
radically different forms of life, but one should at least hint how such
an ecosystem could build.
... Coincidence? No. Cthulhu.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: BRIAN KOLACY
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 14 Feb 96 09:47:00
EID:8961 204e4de0
BK> I diagree. Christ just had good PR. In fact, he could have been a
BK> totally fictitious historical character. Like King Arthur, for
BK> instance...
Who really existed in the sixth century, Arthurius, dux bellorum, a sort
of celtic commander-in-chief in times of war. Sir John Rhys, among others,
has established it beyond reasonable doubt. True, his legendry got
outrageous, and many of the source documents were written many centuries
after the original happened, when you would expect additions to accrue.
(Merlin,interestingly enough, appears to have been a poet who lived fifty
years away from Arthur's time, in another court.)
... History repeats itself when nobody listens.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: ICR, STAAL, AND YOU?
|Date: 14 Feb 96 10:06:00
EID:d760 204e50c0
FR> Did you ever sign into the ICR BBS at one time and post in HolySmoke
FR> say two years ago?
???? No. I got my home computer two years ago today, on Feb. 14 '94 (We
joked it was a Valentine's Day Present) and only called local BBSes. I DID
try to post on Holy Smoke a few times from a local BBS, but their feed was
erratic. Larry Sites recognized my name when I finally found another BBS
that has a GOOD feed to Holy Smoke, and challenged me to name ten things
good Christianity had done for two major downers, the Inquisition and the
Crusades, and after that I was off and running. Where I would have posted
from before was the Woodsong Keep BBS here in Nashville. Now I post from
the Homested, where the feed was good. I didn't post from Woodsong Keep
more than a few times, it was too frustrating. That would have been from
'94 through early '95.
BTW, I NEVER use pseudonyms, unless I am playing a D&D type game. So if
it didn't have Al Schroeder as the sender, it wasn't me.
Why?
... You mean, you can use the telephone line for TALKING???
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: MESSIAH GATE 5
|Date: 14 Feb 96 10:40:00
EID:167e 204e5500
as> Ahhh, now THAT sounds more like the real Fred Rice talking,
as> the rational individual that I knew must be behind the "better
as> educated" facade.
FR> There's no longer even an attempt to debate rationally coming from
FR> you. Here you are talking about mythologies written by anonymous
FR> frauds as if they were real. That's irrational and silly, equal to
FR> believing that everything you read in a Wonder Woman comic book is
FR> real.
You seem to have a Wonder Woman fetish. Ah, well...
The Gospel of John is demonstrably written by the same hand who wrote,
say, 1 John, where the name is given. It claims to be written by an
eyewitness who, interestingly enough, mentions more details than the other
Gospel writers, some of which have been recently verified by archeology
(the "five proticoes", for instance.). (The link between the Gospel of
John and 1 John can be shown on stylistic and grammatical grounds.).
Further, it has the oldest recoverable fragment of any Gospel, dated circa
125 AD. Less than a century, say, when Jesus was crucified. Nor is there
any indication that the next few generations regarded such writings as
fiction or frauds, but rather fact. The first serious challenge to such
was circa 180 AD, by Celsus, who did not question the main incidents, just
the interpretation of it (although he certainly cast doubts on the virgin
birth.).
Now. If you call them "frauds" the onus is on you to prove them so.
Certainly the next few generations did not regard them so. Failure to do
so is irrational and silly. As silly as someone who regards, say, Adolf
Hitler as fictional because he appeared in a Wonder Woman comic book
(which he did in the forties), to use one of your favorite examples. Or
to
deny the possiblity that there might have been a matriarchal society and
female warriors in the Russian steppes, as were the "Amazons" mentioned
in
Herodotus and seemingly confirmed by recent archeological digs (see the
Learning Channel's ARCHEOLOGY series) --just because Wonder Woman is an
Amazon, and her mother Queen Hippolyte was queen of the amazons.
I have seen little from you, Fredric, besides taunting and
antiChristianic bigotry, but of course, you have asked us not to take you
seriously on this echo, so we don't. If you would care to actually have
a
rational discussion, we certainly may. But if you would rather revel in
insults as is your usual style, don't blame me if no one attempts a
rational discussion with you.
... Stupidity is not a handicap. Park elsewhere!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: RE: NO I'M NOT DEAD
|Date: 14 Feb 96 11:41:00
EID:f1e5 204e5d20
AS> Then you missed my 80-post DEFINITIVE PROOF OF GOD?????
JH> Why did it take 80 posts? I posted the complete source code
JH> needed to compile your own GOD and it only took 12 posts.
It loses something in the translation...
JH> I'd post it again for your benefit, but I'm busy making funeral
JH> arangements. No one in this town wants to rent me a shroud.
I'm typing this on the day of your death. It's been nice knowing you.
(Actually, we haven't heard from Azmy in so long, maybe it boomeranged on
HIM...)
... The end is ne$@&*^@#% NO CARRIER
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: STEVE ROSE
|Sub: PRESCRIPTION OF THE FUNDY
|Date: 14 Feb 96 11:51:00
EID:31c3 204e5e60
SR> How utterly funny: a fundy telling someone to 'grow up'...while they
SR> remain a mental midget their whole life, hanging on to false-gawd
SR> beliefs. The irony.
I'm sure Mendel (a monk), Brother Ockham (of Ockham's razor fame), Brother
Roger Bacon (another monk, and one of the first forumulators ofthe
scientific theory), Father Lemaitre (A Roman Catholic priest who conceived
the Big Bang theory) and Copernicus (a canon of the church) think it is
more ironic than you know.
... "God bless you all and give you more sense."--Father Brown
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 14 Feb 96 12:16:00
EID:e8f3 204e6200
SA> The idea that they would want to convert humans to their religion
SA> is also kind of facetious - such a peoples likely wouldn't have
SA> much of a religion, or at least would likely have a very subdued
SA> one that doesn't include conversion and domination of "heathens".
DW> You're being just as guilty as Al was of making invalid assumptions.
A
DW> fervent, evangelical faith in no way *precludes* an interstellar
DW> civilization.
I must agree with you there, Dave (except for the "Al making invalid
assumptions" bit, obviously.). Certainly culturally the Islamic culture
and Christian cultures in the Middle Ages are more advanced in many ways
than many tribal cultures which DON'T proselityze. I suspect religious
fervor can sweep many truly advanced civilizations. And yes, an
interstellar jihad is a frightening throught (or Crusade, or whatever.)
... Flog 'em if they can't take a joke!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 14 Feb 96 13:30:00
EID:c043 204e6bc0
PS> I'm glad that no one was hurt. Sheesh. Anything that us godless
PS> atheists and agnostics can do to help out?
DW> I talked to his wife about 2:00 this afternoon, and they seem to be
DW> pretty well taken care of. Netfriends (and real, live friends) have
DW> sent bundles of clothing, food, and other necessities.
Yeah. Barb is getting a new washer and dryer today. Not the most romantic
thing on Valentine's day, but hey, with three kids, a necessity.
(I have a little time to kill after I get off before I catch my ride,
BTW, so I might be able to reply every two days or so, and someone at our
church can give us free an old XT to reply on until we get a new computer.
I'm doing this on my own time at work, so they don't object.)
... Please, God, not *another* learning experience!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: SATANIST LAYS AN EGG.
|Date: 14 Feb 96 13:37:00
EID:0080 204e6ca0
FR> You know, as a self-professed "Satanist" you sure do give the religion
FR> a bad reputation. Was that your intention? Are you really a fundy
FR> Christian?
as> AAAAAHHHHH!!!! WHAT A HORRIBLE THOUGHT!!!!
FR> The thought that Satanists could eventually match Christianity is
FR> terms of body count and inhuman tyrannies?
He.
Hehehaha.
Hahahahahahahahhaahah!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, Fred, but you seem to have mislaid your sense of humor today.
NO, Fred. The fact that a BOZO like Asmodeus, who is STUPID enough to lay
a curse on JJ and for us to take us seriously, might be a Christian. It
is
particularly depressing to think he might be a Christian. Not that there
aren't people that stupid who are Christians---OR atheists--OR Wiccans--or
whatever. I just didn't want to see another added to it. Suppose I told
you Don Ward and Staal were atheists trolling, pretended to be Christians.
Wouldn't you groan at the thought?
I certainly have nothing to fear from anyone who is SILLY enough to
think that Anton Levay and his moronic "Church of Satan" is close to his
own beliefs. Some occult beliefs I respect even if I don't necessarily
agree with...Wicca, Thelemite, whathaveyou. And yes, I am aware that
Christianity, in its own way, is an occult belief, in that it believes in
things that are not presently covered under the laws of physics. But I
have yet to meet a Satanist who is anything more than a pretentious
hedonist. And Asmodiddly seems to be an appalingly stupid example of same.
There might BE rational Satanists out there, I just personally have never
conversed with one.
as> Sorry, Fred, we ain't gonna take him unless we get PROOF he's Christian.
FR> He certainly sounds like you, Al.
(Gentle smile.) Oh? Have I ever threatened JJ, or you, or anybody, with
a
curse? Or even with praying for them? (I was tempted in Gwenny's case,
with her recent problems with the department of Human Services, but I know
she wouldn't want me to.) Have I said I can cause harm to others by
cursing them?
Or is this yet ANOTHER time that we don't need to take you seriously?
Probably the latter.
Have a nice day, Fred.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ABORT THEM ALL! (Then eat Staal's remains.)
|Date: 13 Feb 96 11:49:00
EID:0b3c 204d5e20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31226b40
And Brave Sir Fredric ran away, screaming "ABORT THEM ALL! (Then eat Staal's
remains.)"!
sa> Oh, I think Miller's for real, even
sa> taking his sex areas into account.
FR> That would mean that he's even a worse hypocrit than even Staal,
FR> Hardy, and Jones.
No shit. Well, I'd tie him with Staal and his alter-egos, but
hey.
sa> After all, look at those televangelists caught fooling
sa> around with hookers, and all the priests and whatnot
sa> into little boys (literally).
FR> I'd rather not. I've got no problem with hookers; they fill
an
FR> economic nitch and a social nitch. The rape of children is deserving
FR> of life inprisonment without the possibility of parole.
I personally think the only niche prostitutes (male and female)
fulfill is that of "disease vector", but folks utilising them risk
a hell of a lot more than jail anyway. Child molestation is still
worse, though.
(As an aside, I'd laugh like a hyaena if it were found Swaggart
contracted AIDS from his little plaything. It would just be such
poetic justice ..)
sa> Just because he's a Christian doesn't mean he can't be a pervert.
FR> Hell, I should have _expected_ it! }:-}
:)
sa> But I requested that my access be _cut_ so that I can't see the
sa> areas any more. I bet not many sysops get requests for access
sa> LOWERING. I simply have no use for such areas, and I've no
sa> interest whatsoever in seeing them or their contents. So I'm a
sa> heathenish prude. Sue me.)
FR> I don't think so. I just don't see the fascination. Prior to my
FR> marriage I would fuck _any_ girl old enough to know better. }:-}
FR> Reading about and bragging about fantasies, though, which few of the
FR> participants will ever try is just kinda pathetic.
To say the least ...
sa> 3 or moresomes? Married, will cheat? Sex in public places?
sa> Yeeesh. Sounds like he hasn't had a .. partner .. in quite a
sa> while. And I doubt he'll ever get one, either.
FR> Oh there's some woman who'll be desperate enough to link up with him,
FR> I'll bet. Hell, women were calling into KFI to _defend_ the Promise
FR> Keeper that was on some months ago.
FR> I need to find Doctor Laura's book, "Ten stupid things women to do
FR> mess up their lives." }:-}
Why spend the money? Just keep reading Maria Russell's posts.
Cripes, I thought I was badly cowed, back in the late 80s and
early 90s; but at the very least, I wasn't bound by rigid
theological beliefs - just a very low self-image. Thus, I was
able to get out of it before I got killed ... would Maria be able
to?
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "What the hell was that?" - Mayor of Hiroshima.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: If we're not being punished for something then life isn't being fair
|Date: 13 Feb 96 12:00:01
EID:d138 204d6000
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31226b41
And Brave Sir Fredric ran away, screaming "If we're not being punished for
something then life isn't being fair"!
FR> In previous versions of the "Satan" myth, Satan was the one who
FR> weighed people's "souls" in a scale against a white feather. If the
FR> "soul" weighed more than the white feather, it was "Satan's" job to
FR> escort the individual into a level of the "Hell" myth.
sa> ? If true, it looks like the Christians hijacked yet another
sa> people's mythos. In Egyptian mythology, it was Anubis' job to
sa> weigh the heart against a white Feather of Truth to determine what
sa> fate the soul (or ba or ka or whichever piece of it happened to be
sa> relevant in this case) deserved. If the heart was heavier than
sa> the feather, the soul (or whatever) was consumed by a creature
sa> that looked like a cross between a croc and a hippo.
FR> Lovely. It seems there's _nothing_ that Christians haven't
FR> taken from second-or-more generation variations of religions which
FR> predate theirs.
Apparently not. I was quite surprised to see your paragraph about
"Satan" - I hadn't realised that such a view of him existed ...
and I'm quite disgusted at the idea of Anubis being made
equivalent to "the devil" in this case. It's bad enough they took
the visage of Pan (who, of course, was never "evil", except
perhaps to hunters he scared the shit out of in certain tales
about him after he was moved from the shepherd's fields into the
woods). Anubis was never an "evil" god, either, though he was
associated with death.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "There are plenty of ball players in heaven .. but very few managers."
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 13 Feb 96 12:04:02
EID:0703 204d6080
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31226b42
And Brave Sir David ran away, screaming "SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2"!
AS>>> bridge the gap between stars being so pathologically shy as to
AS>>> hide from us for decades.
DW>>> Once again, you're making invalid assumptions.
DW> Remember the above part, ok?
The whole thing is based on two assumptions, anyway - 1)
that aliens with interstellar technology exist and 2) that their
ways would be in ANY way recognisable and comprehendable to us.
Frankly, what I _really_ think is that they would have/do stuff
we've never even DREAMED of, sort of like the adage about how if a
lion could speak [English] we still wouldn't be able to understand
him [since the concepts of such a beast would be beyond human ken
or experience.]
SA> The idea that they would want to convert humans to their religion
SA> is also kind of facetious - such a peoples likely wouldn't have
SA> much of a religion, or at least would likely have a very subdued
SA> one that doesn't include conversion and domination of "heathens".
DW> You're being just as guilty as Al was of making invalid assumptions.
A
DW> fervent, evangelical faith in no way *precludes* an interstellar
DW> civilization.
No; I was simply countering his apparent thought that they would
be like European humans, eager to "spread their word". In the
human experience, after all, technological societies generally see
a decrease in religious fervour [save a few rampant fundies]. An
alien species might never even invent gods in the first place.
They might have never needed them in order to make themselves
behave, or never needed them to explain natural phenomena [ie,
developing science very early in their sapient existence.] Sure,
there's the possibility that some bug-headed Torquemada exists -
but there's also the possibility that even if they DO have a
religion, it'd be a hands-off one [either through the taught
morals, or because the religious rules don't allow for mixing
between sapient species.] And there could be possibilities no
human ever would or could come up with.
SA> As far as economics go, if they did have replicators, there'd be
SA> little use for economic ideology; they certainly couldn't be
SA> capitalists, if everyone could just replicate whatever they needed
SA> to live, or wanted to make life comfy.
DW> Now you're being overly idealistic. Replicators require energy.
DW> Replicators would not automatically usher in some wonderful era of
DW> perfect socialism. Instead of buying things, you'd be buying the
DW> energy to *make* things.
I suppose it would depend on what sort of energy they had. If it
were nuclear fusion or fission, the materials could be replicated
once replicators were invented, and waste materials recycled in
the thing (assuming of course it would have the capabilities not
only to make things from the atom up, but to take garbage items
and deconstruct them into atoms to be used later. Though,
plutonium atoms would be dangerous to have around, but perhaps
technology could be devised that speeds up the decay, or in some
other way takes the atom apart to make it into iron atoms or
whatever one wants quickly and relatively safely.)
Science-fictiony, yes, but I consider the concept of aliens
travelling to Earth highly science-fictiony, anyway.
SA> It'd be a bit like John
SA> Lennon's "Imagine" come to reality.
DW> "Imagine" was a dream. A *nice* dream, certainly, but still a dream.
DW> It is a dream that will never come to pass as long as humans remain
DW> recognizably human, though.
Who was talking about humans? I was thinking of _aliens_, and
having fun with it. Your problem is in taking the post seriously,
and your mistake is in thinking I was talking about ourselves.
SA> And I would certainly hope that any species that has gained such
SA> technological prowess WOULD be tolerant enough of strange species
SA> to leave well enough alone, at least until contact became
SA> inevitable, and would not NEED to exploit other species and their
SA> planets.
DW> There are no guarantees, Sue. Technology, as we've seen right here on
DW> Earth, does not impart any special wisdom or compassion on its
DW> weilders.
I said I would _hope_ - simply because that any species with
technology that could destroy entire planets would be damn deadly.
If they WERE like us, though, they'd likely wipe themselves out
long before they got here, so the point would probably be moot in
any event. I think we've been quite lucky the past 50 years, in
that no one has actually been stupid enough to start a nuclear
war, considering that in the past, new weapons were used quite
fervently and at the first opportunity - even if the other guy had
them, too.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... Aliens: We hAvE yOuR mArS pRoBe. We WaNt 1 bIlIiOn CrEdItS iN 24 Hrs.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: An interesting situation 1
|Date: 13 Feb 96 12:20:03
EID:dbef 204d6280
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31226b43
And Brave Sir Mark ran away, screaming "An interesting situation 1"!
SA> it would, charging that folks only hung around there. I suppose
SA> they have a point - but then again, there are still a hell of a
SA> lot of prospective customers around past 6 - and opening past 9
SA> isn't the question here; they'd be a hell of a lot better off if
SA> they DID stay open until that time. But they _don't_, and they're
SA> missing all of the evening business by closing at 5 or 6.
MH>
MH> Then that's their problem. Close, if they like, but whining about
MH> it is only hypocritical. It's not up to us, so why have a discourse
MH> concerning it?
And perhaps it'll be a good thing (for us) that the BookMark,
Borderline, and probably SouthShore close so darn early. :)
SA> Yes, but you're unemployed, as I am; when one works 12 hour
SA> shifts, one likes to sleep in on "weekends"; if I'd have been
SA> living in Windsor when pulling that shift, I'd have been screwed,
SA> since I didn't even open my eyes until 5 or 6 pm; and in the
SA> morning hours, I was much too wiped to want to stay up until the
SA> stores opened at 9 am.
MH>
MH> But I've worked; and gone out, and bought stuff, and kept up a
MH> social life. When I had money, I didn't hold onto the majority of it
MH> for very long. But, oh, what a torrid life I led! Not surprisingly,
MH> there's always something to do if you have the cash to pay for it.
Like I said, it really depends on your work schedule. My schedule
sort of conflicted with everyone else's in the world at the time,
and as I mentioned, the only thing to do was to go up to an
all-night bowling alley for fun. It's a good thing I didn't need
to buy food from a grocery store, because the only food-place that
matched my hours was the always-overpriced 7-11.
SA> incurred was a bottle of wine with dinner, which cost $19 (no
MH>
MH> Yeesh. Next time ask for a _glass_ of wine. ;)
It isn't much cheaper. A bottle gives about 4 to 6 glasses, and
they were charging $4.50 per individual glass. Two people would
then have 2 or 3 glasses each, a nice moderate number, with a
bottle. Given that I drink slowly, and the place did have
entertainment to keep one there, a bottle was a good buy that
could last the whole evening, even after dinner was done. [The
entertainment consists of belly-dancers - very classy (coming from
me, you KNOW it's clean) and one had a very amusing act - and live
singers to whom you could do Greek dancing. Lots of fun,
though the first time I went, it looked like the campaign
headquarters for Paul Tsongas. Better yet, it attracts a
predominately older crowd - late 20s up, though after 10 pm, most
folks there will try to speak to you in Greek. When I get some
money of my own, I just might drag you there .. I'll check it out
first, though, to make sure it still offers the same sort of
atmosphere/entertainment. Sure, it's a bit expensive, but I'll
feel it's well worth it. Heck, even my late great-aunt (one of my
grandfather's sisters) used to haunt the place, and she LOVED it.
She got a real kick out of the belly-dancers, too. :)]
SA> for a nice dinner. Hell, the place I went, you could eat a full
SA> meal for $6.95 each (with the Cdn $ at par on weekends - I think
MH>
MH> Your conception of a 'meal' is in question, now. You don't eat
MH> much, you realize. Some of us have an appetite. And at $10 [in
MH> Canadian funds, no less], for all you can eat, $6.95 US seems a little
MH> high. Of course, if put back into perspective, yes, it's cheap. [I
MH> think I've grown too used to looking for deals.]
Actually, it isn't a bad price - they give quite large portions (I
can't finish their souvlaki, but then that likely isn't saying
much, is it?) and it _is_ good food. Ming Wah's is likely a better
deal, sure, but I like Greek food as well as Chinese. :) Besides,
they don't charge any cover charge - the entertainment is free (at
least, it was three years ago) if you buy a meal (otherwise, they
have a two-drink minimum, but that doesn't apply if you buy food.
I just like a particular brand of wine they sell there, and
besides, I enjoy wine, especially with nice foods. It's a
civilised drink that doesn't affect me very much.)
Besides, as I recall, the souvlaki (one of the $6.95 dishes) comes
with bread, potato, a vegetable (I think) and avgo-lemeno soup.
And souvlaki (being roast meat of some sort - it's supposed to be
lamb, but I'm not quite sure what they use there, since lamb is
inordinately expensive on this continent for some dumb reason) is
very heavy and rich. (It likely says what sort of meat they use on
the menu, but it's been so long, I simply can't remember.)
SA> that as well as I do; and Greektown is still a nice place to go
SA> for a nice dinner.
MH>
MH> A little out of the way, perhaps, but point noted. Of course
MH> dining out is grand; it's a nice change of pace, and it allows for
MH> both a broader selection of food, and an opportunity to get out of a
MH> rut. It costs, but nothing in this world if for free. Well, too little
MH> of it to be worth noting. Besides, one can practice on their culinary
MH> practices. Like chopsticks!
Greektown isn't really out of the way - I used to walk there from
the tunnel; it only takes maybe 10 minutes up Brush or some such
street, and it's on W. Lafayette (a little off Greektown proper,
but close enough.) And sure! Eating out is fun once in a while,
especially at nice places with nice atmosphere (and fun
entertainment is a bonus.) As for chopsticks, I was never quite
able to master those. But then, I haven't tried in quite a long
while. As for the cost, it really depends on how much the food
(which you don't have to cook yourself) and the atmosphere and
service et al is worth to you. If it's a good place, with good
food, service, atmosphere, etc, and one has a good time in going,
then it's worth it.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... Heart Attacks -- God's Revenge For Eating His Animal Friends.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: [1/2] An interesting situation 2
|Date: 13 Feb 96 12:58:04
EID:74e0 204d6740
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31226b44
>>> Part 1 of 2...
And Brave Sir Mark ran away, screaming "An interesting situation 2"!
SA> Ok, what can we do? I suggest we open up a Windsor chapter of the
MH>
MH> Unless the actions hurt the businesses, no. Raising licensing
MH> fees substantially would be a great way, but would also hurt the
MH> places that don't cater to such prats. We mostly want to cull the
MH> crowd, not the establishments [unless they _want_ that particular
MH> crowd -- in which case, string 'em up!]. Perhaps the suggested [by me]
That would certainly apply to the ownership of Joker's. They're
really slimy.
MH> licensing should be more inclined to known trouble-spurning 'bars.'
The licenses for "night clubs" (which is what these places would
fall under) are already pretty high - what was it, about $1,000?
Perhaps if the city did raise it (under the aegis of the Bully
Bill) it might deter some potential enterpreneurs, but on the
other hand, the mark-up on booze such places command brings
_enormous_ profit. _One_ weekend night of operation would pay it
off alone. Consider that they charge between $2.80 to $3.75 (or
perhaps more now) for one bottle of beer, though a case can be
bought at retail for less than $30. You'd have to raise the price
of the license to about $10,000 - at the very least - to make it
really hurt (which isn't a bad idea.)
SA> Communist party - they don't seem to be fielding any candidates
MH>
MH> There's nothing wrong with advocating communism. Who knows, it
MH> might get a reaction, if people are taught what it actually implies.
Ha. The only reaction I'd likely get is a hangin'. :)
SA> here, at least on the provincial level. And even then, there's no
SA> guarantee that even THEY won't start cuddling up to the money-men
SA> who insist on unfettered capitalism - including 9 nuisance bars
MH>
MH> There's not a lot you can do about it.
Not really; there's no way I'd want to dirty myself by getting
involved in politics, and anyway, there's no way such a left-wing
party'd get put into power.
SA> within a small area - smaller than 3 blocks, actually; it's more
SA> like 2.
MH>
MH> The majority of them are on one block, with the stragglers on the
MH> second block. I used a higher range in order to include the Casino
MH> bar, and make sure it included the Coach.
Mm. But then, to include it all the way to Riverside, as I
mentioned, would include a lot more than just those two places.
MH> you just can't open up yet another bar in that area. Your business
MH> will not only fail [because the market for it in those three blocks
is
MH> plenty heavy as it is], but you'll just attract more slag we don't
MH> want." Works for me.
SA>
SA> Mm. I hope then you'd also accept "No, sorry, there's already so
SA> many bookstores in the area. Go screw yourself". While
MH>
MH> That much is obvious. If it was an all-encompassing bylaw, I
MH> would expect such. However, if one specifically notified that only
MH> nuissance-businesses would get this caber in the face, that'd also be
MH> fine by me. After all, that's the reason we have licensing fees. So
MH> people can take action by calling whomever does the licensing
MH> agreements, and check the trouble-laden establishment to see if
MH> they're on par, and whether or not they can do anything. Ever notice
MH> how bakeries pay an annual 'fee' of $1, but establishments that do
MH> pornography [of any sort] have a sordid $2,700 to pay, yearly. Damn
MH> good system, if you ask me -- a little touch here, and a little touch
MH> there ... and all the better!
Yeah, but remember, $2,700 isn't that much of an investment for a
strip bar - they charge maybe $5 cover, as well has having REALLY
expensive drinks - I've heard that Danny's charges between $4 and
$5 per beer, at least (I don't even want to think about how much
they might gouge for mixed drinks or wine). To them, it's almost
the equivalent of a bakery paying a mere $1. A nuisance, and not
really an economic hardship (and most people who open up such
places start out with a good deal of dough. The owners of Joker's
are all HS teachers, at St. Anne's. And partnerships generally
keep the individual costs incurred down.) Though, yes, charging
$10,000 to $20,000 for a license would probably be a very
effective deterrent.
SA> bookstores don't cause a nuisance, there are enough people who
SA> think reading is totally useless to do a dumbshit thing like that.
SA> To be completely fair, one must restrict ALL business, not just
SA> one form. Which is exactly what I would do, if I were to allow
MH>
MH> I never presumed to say otherwise. However, now that I
MH> deliberate over the issue, benevolent businesses really shouldn't get
MH> this end of the stick.
No, they shouldn't. But then, before last week, I wasn't aware
that different businesses got charged differently for licenses -
I'd assumed that there was one all-encompassing "business license"
one had to buy, no matter what sort of business one was opening.
Now that I know there IS, yes, I do see that it is possible to
target individual types of business while leaving the rest of them
relatively alone.
SA> Oh, yes they would. Those guys are worse than farmers when it
SA> comes to belly-aching. They'd notice fewer people downtown, and
SA> claim it's hurting their businesses. I mean, cripes - they even
SA> complained about the plan to close off Ouellette to car traffic in
SA> the 70s, making it a pedestrian-only street. Where they think
SA> that people cruising aimlessly in their 'rods buy stuff, I'll
SA> never know.
MH>
MH> Where you hear any of this, _I'll_ never know. =) I haven't heard
MH> a peep from any of the downtown mom & pop businesses.
Well, it's usually the Downtown Businessmen's Association doing
the whining - and most, if not all, of the downtown businesses
belong to it. They don't whine individually very much, but let the
Association's spokesman do it for them.
SA> And that was my point; I _really_ don't want to punish the small
SA> business guy - big business has enough to beat up on. But the
MH>
MH> Really, who does? But why the double-standard for pornography and
MH> drinking, with regards to licensing. All the same crowd, these days,
MH> anyway. It'd only afflict the kiddie/meat-market bars. There are no
MH> mature pubs to be affected, let's face it. At least, I don't see one.
I suppose the nudie bars are considered more of a nuisance - or at
least were, when THEY started proliferating back in the 80s some
time (There was quite a bit of noise against several opening up at
the same time, including Jason's and the MIllion Dollar Saloon.)
Frankly, I think they should be hit hard, too, because I see
little redeeming value in them, either, and besides, they do have
a sort of meat-market atmosphere, at least for guys who couldn't
pick up a woman in a regular bar if their lives depended on it.
(Besides, I suspect that most strippers are part-time hookers,
anyway, and really aren't all that "unattainable".) Charge all
these establishments upwards of $10,000 for a license, I say.
MH> Do you? [Note: I tend to differentiate bars from liquor-serving
MH> restaurants.] Sigh. There's just no easy solution without hurting
MH> people by and large. [After all, pubs = bars. And I like the
MH> occasional pub, myself. Even if they don't exist any longer. =)]
Mm. I suppose the only way to differentiate between a pub and a
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: [2/2] An interesting situation 2
|Date: 13 Feb 96 12:58:05
EID:8b04 204d6740
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31226b45
>>> Part 2 of 2...
bar would be the inclusion of music, but most North American pubs
(as opposed to traditional British pubs) have at least a guy with
a guitar. Pubs don't generally attract a really huge crowd, so
it'd be harder for them to pay a high licensing fee. One also
can't differentiate by declaring any place that serves a bit of
food a pub (pub pies, etc) either, because ALL drinking establishments
in Ontario must have food available, at least until a certain
time. Perhaps it would depend on what sort of concept the
prospective owner has for the place, but he could lie - but then,
perhaps when the place is found to have become a kiddie
dance-club with the attendant complaints, the license fee
could be jacked for that individual place. If the place remains
relatively quiet with few complaints lodged against it, then the
fee could stay low. Perhaps that would be the solution - charge
by the complaint. The more complaints, the higher the fee for the
following year. After all, complaints usually result in police
being called in, and it does cost the city to send police out on
nuisance calls.
SA> So, which do we come down hard on first? The enterpreneurs, who
SA> operate the businesses that attract the problem people, or the
MH>
MH> Eliminating the problem element would, of course, be the nicest.
MH> But educating 50% of the world's population as to what is morally
MH> right is a daunting task. It'd be easier to slap higher licensing
MH> agreements on places of that sort.
Mm.
SA> problem people themselves? Control of the businesses in question
SA> might be the first step, AFAIC, but something drastic might be
SA> needed to drill some civilisation into people's heads, as even a
SA> government-owned and operated dance bar would still likely attract
MH>
MH> Perhaps the answer lies in a stricter code of conduct. "If x
MH> number of people are found wasting away, with a y percent
MH> blood/alcohol level, you'll be penalized z. Furthermore, if acts of
MH> violence take place at your establishment, you will be penalized z.
MH> When you've garnered q penalties, your license will be revoked."
MH> It's all too chillingly moral for most people to accept, but hey. It
MH> might work. =)
Perhaps; but the problem arises, too, when people LEAVE the
establishment (ie, morons running wild for two hours or more after
closing). Bars are liable for any drunk-driving accidents that
occur because of their overselling too (if not here, then at least
in some US states) but the problem is in proving a person was
indeed at place x. The number of complaints, police visits,
and the noise level would probably be a good determinant, though.
As for license revoking, there SHOULD be a mechanism in place for
that already, but it only seems to cover establishments that get
caught selling booze to minors more than once. (that's what
happened to the place on Tecumseh that's now called the Sitting
Bull - it was a popular spot for 14 and 15 year olds - _literally_
- because they never checked ID and let ANYONE in.)
SA> problem customers (though it might be better patrolled.) Though,
SA> as I think of it, the American problem customers might stop
SA> coming, seeing as how anything "Commie" as anathema in Yankee
SA> minds. :)
MH>
MH> That'd be a bad thing?
Of course not. :)
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... 186,000 MPS : It's not just a good idea, it's the law.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Mark Hogan
|Sub: [1/2] An interesting situation 3
|Date: 13 Feb 96 13:38:06
EID:74e0 204d6cc0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31226b46
>>> Part 1 of 2...
And Brave Sir Mark ran away, screaming "An interesting situation 3"!
SA> That isn't Casino Windsor's fault - that's OTHER big businessmen
SA> who want to build independent hotels to serve prospective
MH>
MH> But would those other 'businessmen' [they're developers, plain
MH> and simple] be in business, as it were, if the Casino didn't exist?
MH> Mmhmm.
Sure they would. They're developers from HERE, and likely the
same ones who were enthused about the apparently-forgotten
downtown Sports/Convention Centre idea of pre-casino days. If the
NDP hadn't brought in gambling, and hadn't stuck the casino here,
we'd be stuck with that thing instead, and they'd be using IT (and
the conventions it would supposedly have attracted) as an excuse
to build hotels - likely in the same place, or in some other
downtrodden part of town. We'd have been screwed either way, only
the crowd would be slightly different (sports fans and rock concert
goers rather than gamblers. Since the specs on the thing seemed
to enable it to house a professional-league sports team, it's
quite likely the city would have applied for an NHL team, or
perhaps an NBA team, given that professional basketball
has come home to roost.)
SA> fucking city transfer payments. The most ironic thing about this
SA> is, the casino is pulling in more money than anyone expected,
SA> giving the province a massive economic shot in the arm - yet
SA> Fuckwit is STILL saying the province is "broke".
MH>
MH> It does produce a sizable flow of cash, I'll have to admit that.
MH> I simply wish I didn't live in the town where it appeared. It is ugly,
MH> mostly in a literal sense, but at least it has its merits. [Note:
MH> Hurst, wherever you are, you owe me big for saying that. I'll be
MH> expecting our agreed upon transaction to take place within the next
24
MH> hours.]
Well, as I mentioned, the casino merely distracted the city from
it's other project - the sports arena/convention centre. The
scary thing is, after the Permanent casino is built, they might
just resurrect the idea anyway. The only thing that saved us from
that monstrosity in the first place was the fact that they'd given
(or were about to give) the contract for its construction to that
crooked guy - the one responsible for The Pit on Riverside (the
fenced-off area that has two levels of a parking garage in it, and
has been that way for about a decade.) His name escapes me at the
moment, but he's always the lowest bidder for things - and he
never ever gets anything done on schedule or within budget
(because he embezzles everything. The city is just stupid enough
to believe his promises that he'll do better this time.)
SA> Simply opening up new bars in other areas of the city isn't going
SA> to help; the existing downtown bars would have to be shut down
SA> first.
MH>
MH> I never presumed otherwise. Notice, I said 'spread them,'
MH> implying the bars that already exist. However, upon delving into the
MH> lugubrious, unlit world of business I've learned a few things. Closing
MH> them down forcibly isn't the answer. Bill 26 is already changing a
MH> fair number of laws, expecially those pertaining to businesses both
MH> small and large. Fudging it a bit more to include a penalty system
MH> might be a good idea, for 'bars' in general. Hm. Yes, indeed. I like
MH> that.
Yes - the ONLY good thing about that bill is the fact it gives the
ability to punish the hell out of problem businesses (a thought
that probably never occurred to the government that spawned it,
since they seem more intent on protecting business and punishing
the poor with library user fees and such.)
SA> most of the complaints seem to involve folks
SA> _identified_ as Americans - either by their license plates, or by
MH>
MH> All the beatings and the one [?] homicide I've seen in the paper
MH> have been our boys and girls acting foolishly. People I've scrapped
up
MH> off the pavement, again, beaten by our own brethren. I'm not saying
MH> the american-related violence isn't happening, but I still think my
MH> previous ratio is easily believable.
Given how high the ratio IS, I think it's most likely which side
of it has the most troublemakers (and I include here the plain old
noisy assholes, as well as the thugs. The noise is just as much
of a problem for downtown residents - and garners most of the
complaints - as outright violence is. And when one can hear "Oh,
YEAH? Well, I bet you ain't never seen a gun THIS big!" as well
as other comments which belie a person's place of origin from
one's balcony every weekend, it becomes kind of obvious who's
doing what. (After I heard the brag about the gun, I went straight
back inside and shut off all the lights. I think the other folks
outside ran.) I've also had personal run-ins with trouble-making
Americans on and around Ouellette.
SA> police. Also, when you get people saying "You can't fuckin' do
SA> nuttin' to me, I'm an American!" it's a pretty clear indication of
SA> who you're dealing with.
MH>
MH> Actually, again, I've never heard this said before.
I have, several times, to myself and overheard from my balcony (I
may be part deaf, but these guys are LOUD. Don't forget, I lived
at ground zero for about 3 years; you hear a lot more than you do
on Church.
MH> I'm not claiming forthright that it is. Some percentage of the
MH> yanks are obviously hitting the hornet's nest with a stick ... I just
MH> think you're overgeneralizing because it's easy to lay the blame
MH> elsewhere. They do it; we're doing it also. Singling out one or the
MH> other is a subtle falsehood.
But with the ratio given at being 80% American patronage, simple
statistics dictate that the majority is going to be responsible
for the majority of the problems. If the 80% didn't exist, there
would simply be fewer people _to_ cause problems. Couple that with
the illusion that many people have (of any nationality) that the
laws of other countries can't touch them, and you have a problem.
(Look at the shock surrounding that American kid in Singapore, who
got his ass beaten under the dictates of the law. A lot of
letters to the Detroit papers seemed to indicate that they thought
foreign laws shouldn't apply to Americans in foreign countries.
And I wonder how many folks share Sean McCullough's view that ONLY
American laws should be followed by anyone anywhere in the world -
sigh. For an anarchist, he sure seems imperialistic.)
SA> Probably; though it would be discouraging to folks looking for
SA> trouble, to be watched by heavily armed patrols. Hey, if you
MH>
MH> No thanks. We don't