God Damned Fundies!
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Children
|Date: 14 Feb 96 13:26:20
EID:9875 204e6b40
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George Rudzinski > Styx Allum : Children
GR> Styx,
GR> With your permission I would like to post the pictures of missing
GR> children on your echo. In UUE format they average 60,000 bytes or six
GR> messages per UUE.
GR> I would like to post six pictures per day which is 36 messages.
GR> The cause is worthy, we are talking about missing children. And this
GR> medium can get their faces shown to many.
Uhm, won't this interfear with the pictures of fundamentalist's
missing brains that are currently on display here? And we haven't
found even ONE of them yet . . .
... Samson pulled down the pillows of the temple. -- Richard Lederer
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 14 Feb 96 13:31:59
EID:1e56 204e6be0
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J.J. Hitt > Brad Jackson : Re: God's Word
BJ> God word is the truth case closed!
JH> Always you sentences that way make?
I think he's another unfortunate victim of Yoda Complex, which is
also a multi-vitamin for Jedi Knights . . . };)
... Solomon had 200 wives & 700 cucumbers. -- Richard Lederer
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: ACLU WINS FIRST ROUND!
|Date: 14 Feb 96 17:13:27
EID:3959 204e89a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1226bb9c
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: SURV_NEWS) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Les Lemke (1:356/3.0) to ALL.
Original dated: Feb 13 '96, 01:52
˙
From CNET:
ACLU wins the first round
By Rose Aguilar
February 9, 1996, 1:30 p.m. PT
The online community has temporarily won its fight for free speech on
the Internet as the Department of Justice today agreed not to enforce
for seven days the provisions of the telecommunications bill that
make illegal any "indecent" material on the Internet.
"This is the first case that is really going to define free speech
rules for the 21st century," said Chris Hanse, senior staff counsel
for the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). "The courts have to
wrestle with what rules apply when each new medium of speech is
developed. They haven't begun to grapple with whether or not
cyberspace will be free like print, since it is relatively new. This
case will answer their questions," he added.
"I think the Justice Department is aware that there are profound
constitutional problems with the bill and they don't want to impose a
chilling effect before these issues are dealt with by the court,"
said Michael Godwin, staff counsel at the Electronic Frontier
Foundation (EFF). "The court saw no problem agreeing not to enforce
the law while they prepare their own briefs," he added.
Material posted online for seven days will not be subjected to
prosecution, but the Justice Department could still decide to
prosecute retroactively. "The government agreed they wouldn't
prosecute anyone before Wednesday; they did not agree they wouldn't
prosecute on Thursday," said Hansen. "This is serious. This is a
law. You can go to jail for up to two years if you break it."
Is this decision a victory for the online community? "It's a victory
that the government won't prosecute for a week, but people in
cyberspace are at risk today in a way that print and magazine
publishers are not, so we can't claim a victory yet."
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
___
- Origin: Stargate Oregon - North Bend, Oregon USA (1:356/3)
--- timEd 1.00+
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Rod Parrott
|Sub: Re: Church\State
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:43f2 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 1cd7a606
RP>they are taught that they came from monkeys, that there is no god, that
the
RP>ten commandments are fiction, hand out rubbers to them, take away any
moral
RP>teaching and then see what the state gets back----killers, rapers, robbers,
RP>gangs, and amoral homosexuals that want all of to believe they are normal.
Fuck you, moron.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: You watch your mouf...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:8f6e 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 676926b0
SA>-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Worrell <=-
SA> JS> Treading on thin ice here, buster...abuse me all you may, but leave
SA> JS> the lovely Wilbur out of it.
SA> If she is so lovely, why do you call her "Wilbur"? If she has any
SA>sense of self-worth, why does she let you?
Maybe she's Wilbur when she's a she and she's Alice when she's a he...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: English lessons
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:1755 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org f2717bf0
SA>-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Zyad Allebban <=-
SA> JS> Nevermind David. He just hasn't learned to speak Engleesh yet. Some
SA> JS> day when the teacher of common decency whacks him up along side
the
SA> JS> head with the Funk and Wagnall's (average weight 12 lbs.) he may
SA> JS> learn...provided the trauma is severe enough.
SA> And how would you know the average weight of a book you do not use?
All he knows is he thinks it's some sort of Jew book...
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: God's Word...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:a8ce 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 789fd00d
SA>-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Preston Simpson <=-
SA> JS> (1 Tim 2:12 NIV) I do not permit a woman to teach or to have
SA> JS> authority over a man; she must be silent.
SA> PS> This appears to be Paul's opinion. Why is it valid?
SA> JS> It is in the book. I am an inerrantist. The book says:
^^^^^^^^^^^
SA> (snip)
See, he can't even spell 'idiot'...
---
* OLX 2.2 * I haven't laughed so hard since I puked on a fundy.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Roland
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:e3b2 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 262ff304
RO>I am a christain.. And i believe most of the Christian ideas. But i have
on
RO>question....
RO>In Genesis 1:24 God created all animals on the earth..and later that
day he
RO>created man. In his image...
However in Gen 2:15-19 it says the animals were created afterward...
perhaps you consider this a minor bungle...?
RO>But scientist have proven that there was 65 million years between the
death o
RO>the dinosaurs and the beginning of man....
So far, so good...
RO>Did God create dinosaurs at the same time as man? Or did God create
dinosaur
RO>before that, perhaps as his first try at a living world..then realize
that th
RO>dinosaurs were incapable of worshiping him and destroy them...Then 65
million
RO>years later create man.
Nobody 'created' man or dinosaurs. They are part of biological evol-
ution.
RO>If anyone has any answers to my question..or any ideas, please leave
a messag
RO>here in this echo for me...
You will get answers. You probably won't like them unless you're
willing to learn and think for yourself.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:65a0 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 25884b63
JS> -=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
JS> ML> This "Holy Writ" also says that bats are birds.
JS> JS> Evidence to support this claim?
JS> ML> Your own big book of fairy tales: Leviticus 11:13, 19;
JS> ML> Deuteronomy 14:11, 18.
JS> ML> It does not. It says they ARE birds. Here's a zoological
JS> ML> news flash, you retard. Bats are mammals.
JS>Yea. but where does it say that the Bible says they aren't? That would
JS>be a contradiction. Just cause man choses to call them something else
JS>has no bearing on whether or not the Bible is correct in doing so...
You insipid moron, it is contradicting FACTS.
I am beginning to think you are a troll. Nobody could possibly
be as stupid as you appear to be.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Lynda goes over...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:aea3 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org f0877625
JS> DC> Funny thing is, Jimbo, Preston has peers in this Echo. The only
JS> DC> 'peers' you have are your multiple personalities. All the other
JS> DC> xians seem to have written you off as a "not a true xian".
JS>Odd...no one seems to mention it to my face?
Because they don't care to look up your ass?
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Evidence!?
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:a0a5 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org a8af877c
JS> JS> Why is it a lie?
JS> SS> Because the bible said a global flood occured and it DIDN'T,
JS> SS> knucklehead.
JS> Evidence to support this claim? And don't give me some runaround out
a
JS> science book either. I want firm evidence it didn't.
I have a notarized document, signed by you that you owe me
$100,000.00.
I also have witnesses who saw you sign it.
Pay up, welsher.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Women...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:15:00
EID:ebf5 204f81e0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org dbacd258
JS> LB> Out of curiousity, does your church also follow the NT injunction
JS> LB> regarding women not cutting their hair?
JS> No.
JS> LB> (No slam will be forthcoming
JS> LB> from me if it does. I just want to see how fully you all live by
JS> LB> obeying all the NT instructions, even when such don't have a pertinant
JS> LB> reason behind them for today)
JS> I don't know of any pertinant reason for the no cut gig, but I believe
JS> the reason given for the other is apparent...and valid.
Of course you do, being an ignorant, mysogynist salad-bar asshole.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Rodney Green
|To: Kerry Renaissance
|Sub: Very much alive!
|Date: 15 Feb 96 01:28:54
EID:a0c1 204f0b80
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:260/801.0 312404d6
REPLY: 1:346/35.0 311fad8b
-=> Quoting Kerry Renaissance to Rodney Green <=-
-=> Quoting Rodney Green to All <=-11 Feb 96 03:38:36
RG> Why debate about religion when we could talk about Jesus?
KR>
KR> Because we don't *want* to talk about Jesus, and that's why we're
KR> debating religion?
KR>
KR> He's dead, at any rate. Not much to talk about.
KR>
KR> - Kerry
Exactly what I expected to see from someone here. That's the problem
with "religion". It causes people to argue. You see, God is alive, Jesus
is very much alive in the hearts of TRUE believers everywhere. I'm certain
you have run into people who would not match your perception of what a
Christian should be, I have too. I regret that greatly. A stumbling block
that has and will cause unbelief in the only true joy and happiness, a
relationship with Jesus Christ, a personal God who cares about you.
- Rod
... Is it not possible that this book possess the truth, the only truth?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: The Barracks Rat BBS ][ - Elmira, Ny (1:260/801)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 15 Feb 96 18:11:06
EID:df5f 204f9160
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123be1f0
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892248AE
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS> Nature does not need us to care for it, Mickey. That is a delusion
RS> that comes from your dogma.
MH> This is the third time in four packets I've had this post. Are you
MH> spamming me on purpose, or is there a problem?
Thanks for not coming straight out and accusing me of spamming the `Smoke.
In fact, I have done no such thing. All logs state that this message was
exported _once_.
However, over the past several days I've seen many of my messages reposted
from another address with a different origin line. Mine was in the new
message body, and there system's was the actual origin line.
Make sure that the address below actually appears in the actual origin line
of my messages. These are the only valid ones as I normally only post from
my room. On occasion I may post from Styx's system which is in the same
net.
---
* Origin: Have you seen the little piggies? (1:152/67)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:28:51
EID:df71 204fab80
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3123ebe3
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Kenneth Mcabee mumbled "Hello!"
PS> And you seriously think that your attempts to get me to prove that there
PS> is no god would stand up in court? I'm laughing my ass off at you even
as
PS> I type this.
KM> As was I when I type this..... The only place that we can settle
KM> whether God exist or not, is in his court. And if he doesn't show up
And if his court doesn't exist...?
KM>> No it is in no way lying, obscuring the evidence of his existence,
KM>> maybe, but then the Bible does tell us to believe by Faith, not by
KM>> evidence.
PS> It's lying, Ken. It's saying that nothing happened when something did
PS> indeed happen. Face it. Your god is LYING.
KM> Nope, he's not. But let's examine this statement of yours, in order
Yes, he is. The situation is no different than if I were to murder someone
and hide all the evidence.
KM> for you to say that he (my god, the one you don't think exist) lying,
KM> you have to believe that he is in fact real. Are admitting that God
KM> does exist Preston?
No. I'm admitting that I believe he exists, which is not at all the same
thing. Of course, this admission is nothing new--I've never made any
secret about it.
PS> I have said nothing here that I have not said before, Ken. I cannot
prove
PS> that there is no god, just as you cannot prove that you are not a
PS> murderer, nor can I prove that I am not a rabid alcoholic. All that
either
PS> of us can do is provide evidence attesting to the veracity of a given
PS> statement. That by itself is not proof. Do you understand?
KM> Always have, so why do those in here keep asking us (Christians) for
KM> proof or evidence of God? Asking us to provide evidence of a being
I keep asking for evidence because of the simple fact that you're making
a claim and I'd like to see you substantiate it.
KM> that is more powerful than us, who can do absolutely anything, over
KM> whom we have no power over at all, is just as stupid. I can take it
Well, no. You're claiming that this invisible superfriend exists. I don't
see him. Why should I believe that he does? You've been insisting that
he exists and I still do not see any evidence to support your claim.
KM> one step further, since we (Christians) have been taught by the Bible
KM> that we believe, that even if one rose from the dead you would not
KM> believe, where is the logic in asking us to provide you with evidence
KM> that we already believe you will not believe? (Think it through you'll
KM> get it)
Look. You can believe what you like, but I'd appreciate not being
insulted by your insistence that what you believe is fact when you can't
substantiate it as such.
KM>> Evidence is not needed for eternal life Preston, Faith is.
PS> Are you finished dispensing evidence that you are so desperate to please
PS> your god that you'll ignore logic and reality?
KM> Logic? Let's see whose ignoring logic.
KM> Non-Christian - Provide us evidence.
KM> Christian - (reading) Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they hear
KM> not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one
KM> rose from the dead." (thinking) So no matter what I tell them, if they
KM> won't believe the scriptures they won't believe. (explains this to
KM> Non-Christian)
KM> Non-Christian - bologna! I would too!
No. My first objection would be along the lines of, "The Bible has yet
to be shown to be a reliable and credible source of evidence of anything.
Until you can show that it is indeed such a source, please use another
source."
KM> Christian - (rereading Luke 16:31) Sorry, but the Bible which I
KM> believe and have faith in says you won't.
"But I say you won't, so nyah!" Sheesh. Do you realize how idiotic the
above statement sounds?
KM> The data on which a conclusion or judgement is based
KM> Something that indicates
KM> The documentary or verbal statements and material objects admissible
KM> as testimony in a court of law
KM> To indicate clearly
KM> To support by testimony
KM> Present and plainly visible
KM> (speaking) the Bible fits the definition of evidence.
Yes, it does. Unfortunately, it does not provide sufficient evidence. See,
the claim that a god of Judeo-Christian definition exists is a fairly
extraordinary claim. The Bible, unfortunately, is not a fairly extraordinary
piece of evidence supporting such a claim. This is especially true of
the flood debacle, which is claimed by the flood and not supported by simple
physical evidence.
KM> Non-Christian - So what, where's your evindence? not your book of
KM> fairy-tales.
KM> Christian - (rereading Luke 16:31, quotes it to non-Christian) Sorry,
KM> but no matter what I give you or show you, unless you first believe
KM> the scriptures you will not believe.
"Unless you first believe that there is a god, you can't believe that
there is a god." Do you know what a tautological statement is? You've
just made one, you know.
KM> Now tell me Preston, since I, a Christian, have a Bible which I
KM> believe, no matter how much you try to call it fairy tales and lies,
KM> that tells me that you won't believe even if one rose from the dead,
KM> logically, what do you expect me to give you as evidence, when I've
KM> been told, by the very book that I beleive, that you won't believe the
KM> evidence that I give?
In light of your stubborn refusal to have anything whatsoever to do with
reality, I hereby withdraw my request for evidence as it is blatantly
obvious that you wouldn't know what satisfactory evidence was if it bit
you.
Adieu.
... Don't try to scare an armed man. Success will get you a tombstone.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andy Soell
|Sub: Hello, all!
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:28:51
EID:11b6 204fab80
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3123ebe4
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andy Soell mumbled "Hello, all!"
AS> OK, I'm new here, so I thought I'd make a general introduction of
AS> myself.
Okay.
AS> From what I've seen scanning through the messages, many of you seem
AS> very cynical of christians....why? There seems to be a stereotype (at
Why indeed? A good question. Some Christians here are honorable, decent
folk that I wouldn't mind eating with. Some of them are willfully
ignorant, offensive types who insist that I must worship their god their
way or else. This strikes me as ludicrous and a bit silly.
Further, some of the more vocal Christians in this world are just like
the latter group, save that they wear more expensive clothes and reach
more people. I personally have no reason to be nice to people who think
that they can make me join their cult by assaulting me in their god's
name.
... What if there were no hypothetical questions?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: God's word...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:28:52
EID:dba0 204fab80
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3123ebe5
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Kevin D. Mckenzie mumbled "God's word..."
PS>Not many people that I know of even knew that such a film existed.
PS>Hell, for a long time, *I* didn't know that it existed.
KDM> I know about it. Hell, it's even got a series of books.
I thought that the books came first, but of course, I could be mistaken.
... "That wasn't a demi-lich you just stepped on, was it?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Him
|Date: 15 Feb 96 14:14:53
EID:edf1 204f71c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3123451f
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 311fee38
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and David were killing time yakking about Him:
DW>> damn! My catty-bitch meter just exploded! > plastic out of my face>;)
LB> It was a JOKE, David! Didn't you see the smiley? ;)
DW> Nope, the CB meter exploded just before that point. I was too busy
DW> digging the pastic out of my skin to notice any smilies.
Well, that'll teach you not to buy cheap made-in-Taiwan products, won't
it!
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Do you want to make people's heads explode? Sure! We all do!"
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Light of the ass
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:35:47
EID:1e19 204fac60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042a9
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
BJ> You are walking very close to the edge. You like to play with
BJ> danger, by twisting God's words.
I would also enjoy twisting your myth-gawd's head...if one ever existed.
BJ> I would not want to be in your shoes on Judgment day!
BJ> do something about that
Get smaller shoes, so they would fit your tiny feet.
BJ> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you
BJ> I hope you take Peter's advise, Steve.
Take your own 'peter' out...for a good stretch. It needs it.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:37:06
EID:5477 204faca0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042aa
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12321ee3
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
John Prewett wrote in a message to Norbert Sykes:
NS> [-----] And, talk about the niceness of Xtian families to one another,
NS> I guess the Inquisition was just a lovelypicnic in the park.
JP> I presume by "Xtian" you mean "CHRISTian."
How insulting that is to the letter "X".
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:19:14
EID:0bb0 204f9a60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62325e9c
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 311ea658
MG>> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild
MG>> assed guess by some scientist?
AM> Yes.
Good. Let's see it.
AM> 1. Strong nuclear force constant
AM> 2. Weak nuclear force constant
AM> 3. Gravitational force constant
AM> 4. Electromagnetic force constant
[much deleted]
AM> 25. Ratio of mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter
I read through your material. You wasted your time typing it in. What
you have here is a collection of what ifs and so forth. Can you tell me
that if some of the parameters were changed that life would not exist?
Can you tell me that some form of life very foreign to our own would not
evolve and survive.
The answer is "No, you can't". Your stuff here is a collection of facts
that you want to act as evidence of a designer. In order to make these
evidence, you must show that they are the direct effect of a designer.
You must show us the designer.
AM> Before I draw any conclusions, let me quote a few scientists
AM> thoughts.
Let me quote another eminent scientist to you....
"Opinion on whether there is a god or not is nonsense. The facts of the
matter point to there being no god. but those that believe that a god must
exist must show the rest that that god does indeed exist. A polaroid of
the god would be nice. And a nice interview with the god admitting his
creation. Nothiung much else would matter."
---Martin Goldberg Ph.D.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:26:33
EID:6c02 204f9b40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 623272d2
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1490ec21
SM> Like all other SECULARIST conservatives -- those who believe in
SM> personal freedom and personal responsibility -- you are taxed
SM> without representation. Neither political party would touch your
SM> politics with a ten-meter pole.
Being in politics means being elected. Taking a stand too far away form
the political mainstream is dangerous. However, there are a growing number
of people like myself that are tired of the Clingons and the Newts, the
Gramms, the Super Fundies and those that would prevent a person from going
to a church. Yet we don't believe that personal freedom is the end all
and be all of life either as they don't rate absolute status.
>> not believe tht all conservtives are Jesse Helms types or
>> David Duke types only because these clowns call themselves
>> conservative. It is not the same.
SM> But it IS such clowns as these who bear the exclusive
SM> representation of conservatism in modern America.
Sadly, this is true. A real conservative is hard to find.
SM> Because a great many of us, both of us included, realize that it
SM> is the very Christanic cults which constitute the Religious Reich
SM> which got us into most of the fiscal trouble we're in today.
I'm not sure about that, but then I've never bothered to think about it.
when I think of the religious right, I think of big time repression of everything
that they don't like, not fiscal policy.
SM> By demanding that all human life be preserved at all costs, the
SM> Christanic cults have caused modern America to be one of the
SM> most over-populated nations on Earth. Labor markets which
Overpopulated? I dunno. But when there are too many hookers and drug addicts
having kids when they are not allowed to obtain an abortion, then if there
is one unwatned birth, I would call that "one person too many".
SM> Said cults CANNOT be trusted to do what is needed to make
SM> laissez-faire free enterprise capitalism work. Unless and until
SM> we can restore a national position where there are more
SM> support-level paying jobs than people who need them, we're going
SM> to remain in the same kind of trouble we're in today.
We are still paying for Nam....still trying to convert to a true peace time
economy. but everytime we try to switch over and cut pet federal projects,
someone jups up and down if they lose their job. Like the people in Russia,
now realize, converting from one economic system to another is pure hell.
It doesn't come without some shit hitting the fan.
SM> And NEITHER party has been willing to face said reality yet.
Politicians never will. And there's damned few statesmen around.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:46:10
EID:a1d4 204f9dc0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5750
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Brad Jackson wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS>I'm sorry but I don't share your delusions.
BJ> I have no delusions.
On the contrary, you do. You believe in superfriends. That's the same
as an adult still believing in Santa Claus.
BJ> I know the true.
No, you _believe_ it's true. You don't _know_ that it's true. Please seperate
rationality from emotional needs and wants. They are two different things.
BJ> If you would read his book
BJ> you would also know the true.
I have read the book you speak of. To me it's just like any other book
of that nature. Perhaps it contains some historical accounts and some nice
stories [not to mention the great sex scenes and the mass killings] but
I don'
take it as the word of some made up god.
BTW, you stated that it's `his' book. Hmmm, I never knew god had authored
it. It's not listed under `god' in the university's computerized library
index system that way. Do you think they might have made a mistake?
BJ> And the truth will set you free.
Then why have you sat your lazy ass down on a stale old book? Wouldn't
it be better to be always looking for answers instead of becoming smug with
the old ones as the world passes you by?
BJ> I
BJ> think you do care and are interested in God.
You are wrong. I am an atheist.
I do care about a lot of things in this world however, god isn't one of
them. It's my feeling that religion is a repressive system designed to
enslave the masses. It's a control thing.
Think about it. While I'm not religious, there are many people who consider
themselves religious. You don't need a church to be religious, you don't
need to give money to be religious. If you want to be religious you can
do that on your own.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:53:28
EID:0276 204f9ea0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5751
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 a619a014
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Marilyn Burge wrote in a message to Sue Armstrong:
MB> That's only true in some parts of the US. We had the Willamette
MB> River rise to within a hair of flood stage yesterday, threatening
MB> the downtown businesses with severe water damage. People came from
MB> all over the city to the seawall to fill sandbags and place them so
MB> that the height of the seawall was, for all intents and
MB> purposes, raised about a foot or so, just to protect those
MB> inventories. Also, people crossed the Columbia River into
MB> Washington State to do the same for those downtown businesses in
MB> Vancouver, Washington. We ended up on the National News because of
MB> our neighborliness. Opening a door hardly raises an eyebrow in
MB> these-here parts. We are a city of over a million with a
MB> population that still thinks they live in a hicktown.
While I share your views of the wonderful way of life we have here in Oregon
I'd suggest you head way up north to British Columbia if you want see real
friendly people. The only exception to this is the anal retentive border
officials they have up there.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:54:50
EID:4dbf 204f9ec0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5752
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS> the Republican in the race -- Gordon Smith, a devout Mormon.
JB> After seeing what just happened, I wonder what Styx will say to the
JB> following 2 words?
JB> PAT BUCHANAN
Even thought Styx and I share almost opposite views on most things political
from what I know of him he wouldn't go for that twit.
It is interesting to note that today I heard reports that some of Buchanan's
aides are rumored to be members of white power type groups. I'll have to
verify this, but it wouldn't suprise me a bit.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: 1 god
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:58:05
EID:d57a 204f9f40
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5754
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Brad Jackson wrote in a message to Hector Plasmic:
BJ> You think of me as a foolish man because of my belief in the
BJ> bible and God Jesus Christ? If he doesn't exist why do so many
BJ> hate him then, or the people that follow his word?
You think of me as a foolish man because of me belief that Elvis is still
alive? If he's not, why do so many people keep seeing him and claiming that
he's alive.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:58:44
EID:c3dd 204f9f40
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5755
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Brad Jackson wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
BJ> Ryan if you would have taken the time yourself to read the bible
BJ> you would have found out that what this fellow wrote in that book
BJ> was false.
You are wrong. I have checked the quotes that I posted to you and they
are in the three versions of the Bible that I have in my various bookcases.
You are in serious denial. And that ain't a river in Egypt.
BJ> You are among many that quote his book with out doing
BJ> the research yourself.
Like I said above, I have done the research. Not only did I check the quotes
that were contained in the post I also have read most of the Bible [the
interesting bits at least].
BJ> I will not answer to it because I know it
BJ> to be false,
Classic fundy move. You are shown that there are many contradictions in
that damn book of yours and you start running with your hands on your ears
screaming `IS NOT! IS NOT! IS NOT!'
Enjoy.
BJ> God word is the truth case closed!
Obviously you have done little research, or thinking for that matter.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:02:28
EID:29ee 204fa040
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5756
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Brad Jackson wrote in a message to Martin Goldberg:
BJ> You ask for none bible evidence, and people tell me I think in
BJ> circles. Do you believe in Enstins theories? How do you know they
BJ> are correct?
They can be shown to be correct over and over again by various people.
BJ> If you were to answer, because I can put them to partice and see
BJ> the results. I would have to say try doing so with the bible and
BJ> see the results for yourself.
It's a god damned book for fuck's sake.
Wouldn't you think I was loony if I started quoting the word of some superfriend
out a book entitled `Why Cats Paint'?
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: NO I'M NOT DEAD
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:05:38
EID:e1a8 204fa0a0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5758
REPLY: 1:123/67 311dbf68
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Shelby Sherman wrote in a message to Preston Simpson:
PS> And they're succeeding. What was this nonsense about global warming?
SS> It's just as you characterized it, nonsense.
Really? Is it a conspiracy then? Don't tell me, the Twelve Jewish Scientists
are at it again. Fuck.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Jose Gomez
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:06:04
EID:f397 204fa0c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5759
REPLY: 1:18/73.0 89200E13
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Jose Gomez wrote in a message to Hector Plasmic:
JG> My friend, much of Bible history has been proven as well as
JG> archeologically supported.
The flood has not. Go back into your hole.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Zayd Allebban
|Sub: Hey you all
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:07:24
EID:16b3 204fa0e0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d575a
REPLY: 00046f2c
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Zayd Allebban wrote in a message to All:
ZA> Since I'm just getting started in this message writing stuff, I've
ZA> still got to get it under control. There is another net I am
ZA> involved in and I'm overloaded with messages there. So until I can
ZA> get that under control, I won't be writing here for a while...
Ask Allah for an offline message reader.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Glenda Stocks
|Sub: now I know why
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:30:23
EID:a920 204fa3c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d575e
REPLY: 1:330/175 61ff45a0
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Glenda Stocks wrote in a message to All:
GS> Now I know why PART of the reason Spirit led me to make the changes
GS> that I am, which includes taking down my BBS, is this telecom law
GS> and its inherent crackdown on all telecommunications.
Are you a wimpering coward? Are you giving in to these fucknuts?
GS> We could see it coming in the latter months of 1995.
BTW, it _is_ 1996 now.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:33:55
EID:d482 204fa420
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d575f
REPLY: 1:289/80 311F052D
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Eric Hendrix wrote in a message to All:
EH> now that I've said that, let me get started. Christianity relies
EH> on faith. Faith doesn't necessarily come from proof, but a feeling
EH> in the heart (symbolically, not physically!).
In laymen's terms, it's emotional. The main problem I see is when people
choose to use emotions in place of rational thought. Don't get me wrong,
there's a time and place for emotions but they should never replace rationality.
EH> Some, have faith in God and Jesus, some have faith in science,
There is no faith involved in science. Science is the process of describing
what happens. What happens is what happens, you can't change that.
EH> some still yet, have faith in other gods/deities. Science, to
EH> some degree, is very convincing. However, science, just like any
EH> other study or faith,
You are mistaken. Science relies on rational thought, not faith of any
sort.
EH> has it's short-comings. For example,
EH> science says there could be ghosts/super-natural beings. But,
EH> they can't *prove* it.
Wrong words. They have _yet_ to prove any such thing. Long ago science
didn't know anything about subatomic particles. Back then would it be smart
to say that science can _never_ prove that such things exist?
EH> for their own protection. Now, we have the theory of evolution.
EH> Although I don't know it very well, and don't care to, I have
EH> been told it's full of holes.
Interesting. You come out and admit that you are ignorant when it comes
to a certain scientific theory and then you even state that you are not
even interested in learning anything more about. Lastly you state that
you believe what someone else tells you without researching it yourself
or even questioning what they say. You let other people think for you.
That is very ignorant of you and won't get very far.
EH> it. Everyone worships *something*. The word "worship" doesn't
EH> necessarily mean, you get down on your hands and knees and pray to
EH> it. It simply means you hold that object/being as the most
EH> important thing in your life.
I don't worship a damn thing and never will. Even if I do end up finding
someone to spend the rest of my life with and love that person with everything
I have I will never worship that person. To worship her would put me at
a lower level and her at a higher one. I want an equal.
EH> computers, are too easy to tamper with. This one I know, since I am
EH> a programmer in 4 languages. Actually, I would think it would be
It's amazing to me that you can be a programmer, a job that requires the
use of extensive logic, and still believe in the stuff you do. You're a
living paradox.
EH> There is a belief as a part of Christianity, that I call "The
EH> Umbrella Effect". The order of responsibility, as well as
EH> authority, in a household goes like this. God/Jesus, the husband,
EH> the wife, then finally, the kids. In the umbrella effect, if the
You're a sick puppy. I bet you always make your wife to the dishes and
wipe your ass as well.
EH> I don't know if this has shed any light on other people's
EH> views, but I hope so. Christianity has been called a cult. Well,
EH> it is similar, only we don't go out and kill people. A cult, as I
EH> know it, only requires that you do *whatever* the leader
EH> requests.
You are mistaken. The Velvet Underground had quite a cult following but
I don't think everyone did everything Lou Reed told 'em too.
Consult a dictionary.
EH> In my case, God/Jesus is the leader and I WILL do
EH> whatever they request.
That makes you a slave. How does it feel to be a slave? How does it feel
to have your human spirit chained by your own view of the world?
EH> As far as that goes Atheism is actually,
EH> Satanism.
Utter bullshit. Please do not try to speak of things you know nothing about.
You have already demonstrated that you are willfully ignorant and not willing
to think for yourself. This simply puts the icing on the goat-damned cake.
EH> instant. Of course, our gov't has already made provisions for
EH> this, "just in case the Bible is true." They have made up stories
EH> of Hangar 13 (I think 13, don't remember the number for sure),
EH> where they supposedly have an alien's spaceship. Now, when the
EH> world ends, they have the excuse of "They were abducted by
EH> aliens!"...
Jesus.
Attention all `Smokers, we have another goat-damned quack on our hands.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:14:18
EID:e369 204fa9c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5760
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 311f3612
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Don Martin wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
DM> Don MArtin atheist Lagers, porters and
DM> ales from small
DM> breweries
Do you have much in the way of craft brewers up in your neck of the woods?
I often brag about the fact that here in Oregon we have the largest concentration
of craft breweries and brewpubs. It often takes hours at the supermarket
to make up my mind. It's a great time to be a beer lover. :)
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: information
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:15:54
EID:d46b 204fa9e0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5761
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89214396
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
MH> Should there be hardcore pornography on broadcast television at 4
MH> in the afternoon?
MH> If you say no, then it would seem that you do condone some limits
MH> on free speech.
The broadcasters are private businesses. They can choose to restrict such
things if they want to.
However, I do realize that certain government agencies do make such restrictions.
In theory they are acting on some sort of consenus.
As for the freedom of speech issued involved in this...Pornographers are
not outlawed, thus they still have the freedom to express themselves.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:18:58
EID:3edf 204faa40
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5762
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 140de107
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Alan Hess:
JJ> As frustrating as I know the idiocy evidenced in BJ's post
JJ> is, to suggest that King James deliberately mistranscribed or
JJ> omitted anything is ridiculous. Got *anything* to back that up?
It's a basic fact outlined in most Western Civilization courses. Have you
taken one of those lately?
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: evidence
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:19:38
EID:a5e9 204faa60
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5763
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4B
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS> We have presented you with plenty of evidence. You just chose to
RS> _ignore_ it.
MH> 1. A half-truth. Christianity is based on the death AND
MH> RESURRECTION TO ETERNAL LIFE of its central figure.
Yet you fail to provide evidence of this. To my knowledge no human has
been dead, buried, and come back to life.
MH> 2. Tragically true, but demonstrably OPPOSED to the original core
MH> teachings of the faith. Atrocities perpetrated in the name of
MH> Christ are in clear violation of Christ's teachings.
Those people considered themselves Christians. We have to take their word
for it. I assume that you're Christian as well. I take your word for it.
In other words, it's not cut and dry. Someone could consider you unchristian
and you could consider someone else unchristian. Who's correct?
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: conformists
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:21:45
EID:5e8e 204faaa0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5764
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4F
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to J.j. Hitt:
MH> Man: Why did you shave your head?
MH> Son: All my friends were doing it.
MH> Man: Why are you wearing ripped jeans?
MH> Son: It's the style.
MH> Man: Why did you pierce your nostril?
MH> Son: I saw it in a movie.
MH> Man: Why do you do these weird things?
MH> Son: To be different.
Yeah. He's got individuality, just like everyone else.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: The fire
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:27:32
EID:eefb 204fab60
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5765
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
AL SCHROEDER wrote in a message to ALL:
AS> Well, this is what I get for liking an echo called Holy
AS> SMOKE.... First off, I would like to thank Dave Worrell for
I'm happy that no one was hurt, and that your back in action here. Take
care of yourself, and your family.
:)
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:28:40
EID:0ce8 204fab80
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5766
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1221c848
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
John Prewett wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS> Second, if Smith was to go with the `Contract on America' and all of
RS> that Republican revolution bullshit as you said he stated he would he
RS> would be cutting federal student aid
JP> 1] EXACTLY [and cite source of information]
JP> HOW MUCH HAS REPUBLICAN SOUGHT TO DECREASE "federal student
JP> aid."
This is laughable, coming from you that is. You, the man that proclaims
that JFK is the antichrist and will come back to life [Did he ever actually
die?] asking for evidence.
That's a good one Prewett.
I'll allow you to enlighten yourself. Check the congressional record and
also check ftp.whitehouse.gov. I've seen it in both places, but I'm not
to sure about the exact address of the government ftp site.
Use Yahoo, `ya dumbass.
JP> 2] What is the Federal government gonna do when it can't
JP> even pay the INTEREST on all the money it has borrowed ?
Cut the fucking pork projects and the goat-damned inflated defense budget.
di you know we have a Navy base in Missouri!?
RS> and voting against environmental
RS> protection laws in order to directly aid big business [where he has
RS> personal interests].
JP> Crippling wicked old "big business" turns tax-payers
JP> intoformer tax-payers and/or welfare recipients.
I'm not talking about crippling big business at all. I'm talking about
making bug business act in a responsible manner while retaining the bottom
line. Without environmental laws there is _nothing_ to keep them from fucking
over the earth and only incentives [fatter profits] to do so.
There is a way to make money, and do it with responsibility.
JP> How much of that can the system take before going belly up ?
It wouldn't matter if we destroy the very environment that supports life
on earth.
JP> If people are starving, should they be allowed to eat a
JP> Spotted Owl ?
Go piss on an electric fence.
You obviously know little or nothing about the timber issue here in the
northwest. The spotted owl was obviously used by the environmentalist to
stop the cutting. There was no other way.
Again, with this issue there is a responsible solution. We don't need to
cut down so many trees. We can grow hemp to make paper and other products.
RS> To simply state it, I wouldn't be in school if it were not for such
RS> investments in me by the federal government. As it stands, after I
RS> pay for the remaining 3/4 of my tuition with my own money I live at
or
RS> below poverty standards.
JP> I'd miss you a lot , but, you might consider
JP> turning off the computer and getting a job.
I already hold down two of them. I'm in class about twelve hours a week.
About 36 additional hours a week are needed to learn something. In addition
to that I work a `real'job as a computer consultant for one of the university's
departments. In the summer I plan on not attending summer school. Instead
I will work 12 hour days, eight of which will be in construction for a local
school district, four of which will be for the university.
If you think I'm a leech, you can go fuck yourself.
RS> Check the Republican record for increasing defense spending, getting
RS> kickbacks from defense contractors, and giving out welfare to big
RS> business. After you are finished with that, look at the PORK in Newt
RS> Gingrich's home state.
JP> Watch a liberal congressman cry when they want to cut a
JP> military base in his district.
Styx and I were talking about Republicans. I was repsonding to what I thought
of as a inflated view of what Republicans are.
I don't subsribe to any political party. They both stink. The problem
is the Democans and the Republicrats.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: J.J. Hitt
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:39:41
EID:b8e0 204face0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5767
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 312238f9
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Don Martin wrote in a message to All:
DM> Today is Valentine's Day, and I see nothing in this
DM> mailbag from J.J. Hitt. You don't suppose that Assholmodeus' curse
DM> finally kicked in, do you?
It got to me. I had a date with traffic court and got fined not only for
driving faster than the posted limit but got fined $300 for not carrying
the current insurance slip in my car even though I have always driven insured
and I even proved to the judge that I was insured at the time I was pulled
over.
$300 is three months worth of insurance payments. The system is so stupid.
This all happened on Valentine's Day.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:43:17
EID:4cbe 204fad60
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5768
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892248AD
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to All:
MH> Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate
MH> Christians for using shareware offline readers for more than 30
MH> days without registering.
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally
MH> hard on Frederick Leff.
You might as well start harassing me about it as well:
... This copy of GoatEd unregistered for 176,434,987,127 days.
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Hit list
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:46:25
EID:081d 204fadc0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 123d5769
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31216398
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Jim Staal wrote in a message to George Rudzinski:
JS> It hasn't worked for you. Why do you recommend it to someone else?
Couldn't resist could you Jimbo.
---
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 15 Feb 96 14:52:03
EID:6137 204f7680
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31240712
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1221c849
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Judith and John were killing time yakking about FLOOD:
JB> Isn't it strange that not *one* of those 500 witnesses seems to have
JB> been someone 'official' who would have at least mentioned it to
JB> someone in authority? And not one of those witnesses wrote anything
JB> about it themselves, or even had their name recorded as being a
JB> witness. Makes you wonder, don't it?
JP> Hmmmm,
JP> looks like God isn't particularly concerned
JP> with impressing "officials."
I believe by "official", Judith meant someone whose testimony made it into
scripture.
JP> Kinda like when God sent angles to shepherds to announce
JP> Messiah's birth,.... stead of sending them to the big shots.
But were they the right angles?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... This is an unauthorized cybernetic announcement.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 16 Feb 96 01:02:04
EID:21e4 20500840
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31240713
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892343B1
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about EVIDENCE:
LB> Radioastronomers might get a bit poetic about the music of the
LB> universe. ;) I doubt American Bandstand would say "Good beat, easy to
LB> dance to", though. However, I'm sure you realize that the above is
LB> poetry and was never intended to be a suggestion that the heavens
LB> "speak" in any sort of literal way, right?
MH> Dan has never demonstrated any such ability to understand
MH> different types of written communication before; why should he start
MH> now?
I have faith! (G)
MH> Day after day they pour forth speech; night after
MH> night they display knowledge." Psalms 19:1-2
DC> Not ponly did they bug our on their concert deal, they seem to
DC> have backed out on the speaking engagement.
LB> Looks to me like a bit of Babylonian philosophy crept in after all --
LB> that's astrology talking!
MH> In the Psalms? How?
It wouldn't be an entirely unreasonable thought -- many of the Psalms were
written during Babylonian captivity. While the Hebrews made strong point
of
keeping culturally apart from their captors, it would have been EXTREMELY
difficult to utterly separate from the linguistic and metaphoric nuances
of
the dominant culture. But, no, I don't think they were actively looking
to
the skies for answers.
MH> I disagree. It seems to me this thought flows
MH> very naturally from the opening line about the glory of God -- they
MH> display God's knowledge, a nightly testimony to his creative power and
MH> imagination.
That's the way I've always seen it, as well -- but the image sort of leapt
out
reading the one passage on its own. And I've been reading up on the history
of astronomy (which has it's roots in astrological significance). The idea
of the night revealing "knowledge" (not just a reflection of God's glory)
is very astrological in tone. But it is equally likely that that turn of
phrase is yet another example of translation -- and Christians during the
Middle Ages were not so adamant in their refusal to seek clear signs from
God
via the stars as were the ancient Hebrews.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... This tagline utterly lacks class, but is very cute
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: RE: QUESTIONS? ABOUT _WH
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:44:03
EID:cc29 204f9d80
Whilst masticating on , AL SCHROEDER (1:116/3000)
wrote to HECTOR PLASMIC:
AS> You want to make a more bigoted statement? Or can you? Can anybody?
Saying
AS> such to a Moslem is equivelent to thinking every Christian is Torquemada.
AS> Not every Moslem is the Ayatollah Khomemi. Don't be so provincial.
Not every Muslim is Louis Farrakhan, either, which is fortunate, as Screwy
Louie is running around the sleazy parts of the Muslim Middle East telling
Khaddafi and whichever fanatic currently heads Iran that Muslims will bring
down the Great Satan, aka the U.S. Louie wants money from terrorist-sponsors
(who kill black Americans as well as white Americans) to help fund his Nation
of Islam cult.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Re: The Light
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:56:30
EID:04c0 204f9f00
Whilst masticating on , John Prewett (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
wrote to Alan Hess:
AH>> Hebrew Scripture is the ONLY Scripture.
JP> Wonderful.
JP> Are you a believer in the God revealed in Hebrew scripture ?
I'm not a believer. However, the Original Testament is considered the Word
of God by believers - the add-on testaments are the words of men. As such,
they're no different than any other stories written by men.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:00:18
EID:1ddb 204fa000
Whilst masticating on , John Prewett (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
wrote to Alan Hess:
MH>> 3. Why would a Christian want the Bible replaced with his own book?
AH>> Ask the men who wrote Testament II, and replaced the Bible with it.
JP> "Replaced" ? Hmmmmmm,
JP> I've seen a lot of books combining Testaments I AND II.
So why don't Christians keep kosher, among other things? Because they wrote
a new book, and kept the parts they liked of the old one.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:02:14
EID:760d 204fa040
Whilst masticating on , John Prewett (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
wrote to Alan Hess:
JP> Do you really believe Moses got the 10 commands from God ?
Nope.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Xtian Science?
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:02:50
EID:054b 204fa040
Whilst masticating on , John Prewett (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
wrote to Alan Hess:
JP> You call it the "CHRISTian thing to do."
JP> The only consensus accepted written record we have of Christ,
JP> the NT, does not include such as the action you describe.
That hasn't stopped Christians from killing in the name of Christ.
JP> So why [other than mind-less anti-Christ bigotry]
No, mindless is killing people because a religious leader says "God wants
you to."
AH>> Speaking of Christian ways, have you ever read about how European
AH>> Christians were partlly responsible for the spread of the Black Death?
AH>> Seems they believed cats were Satanic, and killed every cat they saw.
AH>> Naturally, the rat population exploded, along with the rat fleas that
AH>> carried plague!
JP> You call it "CHRISTian ways," though the only consensus accepted
It was the position of Christian churches, which makes it "Christian ways."
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:09:02
EID:a8e5 204fa120
Whilst masticating on , Kenneth Mcabee (1:271/460)
wrote to Alan Hess:
AH>> Do you really believe this mythological fairy tale?
KM> Nope, do not believe in any mythological fairy tales. I do however,
believe
KM> in the Bible.
So you DO believe in mythological fairy tales.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:10:20
EID:49d6 204fa140
Whilst masticating on , Kenneth Mcabee (1:271/460)
wrote to Alan Hess:
KM>>> How about Isaiah 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there
is
KM>>> not God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"
AH>> You've just debunked the "Christ is God" school of thought. So
AH>> much for Christianity!
KM> Lord is Christ, Lord is God, same being.
Afraid not - according to the myth, God was in heaven while Jesus (allegedly
also God) was on earth. That makes TWO gods, and Isaiah 45:5 says there's
only one.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.01
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: An interesting situation.
|Date: 14 Feb 96 19:20:11
EID:43ce 204e9a80
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020ccb
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
SUE ARMSTRONG spoke thusly to PRESTON SIMPSON:
SA> PS> Tip: If you're in the market for a new system, do not buy a
SA> PS> Packard Bell if you plan to expand it *at all*.
SA>
SA>I'll keep that in mind. What's wrong with P-B? I know I don't
SA>want a Compaq, since everything seems to be built-in (if I wanted
SA>something like that, I'd get an Amiga) ...
A better question is "What isn't wrong with Packard Bell?"
... Clippetyclop (frown) clippetyclop - Amish drive-by shunning
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Cashless society
|Date: 14 Feb 96 19:25:12
EID:75f8 204e9b20
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020cdc
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
DAVID WORRELL spoke thusly to ALL :
DW>Dan Post finally answered the question, in CONSPRCY.
DW>
DW>06 Feb 96 14:33, Dan A. Post wrote to David Worrell:
DW>
DW> DW>> How did you know they had cliterectomies, Dan? Was it something
DW> DW>> like, "Oh, hi Mr. Cashregister Repairman! By the way, I've had
DW> DW>> a cliterectomy."? Explain it to me, Danny.
DW>
DW> DP> Do you not understand the signifigance of the 'dot' in the
DW> DP> centre of the forehead? My understanding is that this mark is
DW> DP> placed there following the procedure, and these women had this
DW> DP> mark. All you have to do is walk down the street of any major
DW> DP> city in North America (except maybe in the southern US), and you
DW> DP> will likely see someone with this mark in less than half an
DW> DP> hour. I already explained this, are you saying that this isn't
DW> DP> the case?
DW>I thought his answer would amuse some of you.
I liked JJ's response, ("It means the coffee's ready"), and his response
to that ("I don't understand...") myself. Like he's telling us
something we don't already know.
... Whapped upside the head with a lime . . . another drive-by fruiting.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Conformists
|Date: 14 Feb 96 19:40:13
EID:b1f8 204e9d00
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020ced
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to J.J. HITT:
MH> JH> I can't see the appeal in it myself. While I am by no means a
MH> JH> conformist (ha! no one admits to being one) I do find there are
MH> JH> advantages to anonymity and the ability to fade into a crowd.
MH>
MH> I saw a comic strip -- may have been in Mad Magazine -- that really
MH> spoke to this. It's a middle-aged man talking to his teenaged son.
MH>(I don't recall the dialogue verbatim, but I can get the point
MH>across.)
MH> Man: Why did you shave your head?
MH> Son: All my friends were doing it.
MH> Man: Why are you wearing ripped jeans?
MH> Son: It's the style.
MH> Man: Why did you pierce your nostril?
MH> Son: I saw it in a movie.
MH> Man: Why do you do these weird things?
MH> Son: To be different.
Yeah, that was Mad. Dilbert did something similar.
Dogbert: I'm off to my new job as an MTV reporter.
D: Rap star Freshy Q, what is the secret to your success?
Freshy Q: Always be your self. Don't follow the crowd. Be true to
your instincts.
D: Did *you* invent rap?
FQ: Uh . . . no.
D: Oh, but you probably pioneered that style of dressing.
FQ: Not exactly.
D: But you write all your music.
FQ: No . . . I buy it.
D: The dance steps?
FQ: I hire a choreographer.
D: Well, I'll bet nobody else folds his arms quite like you.
FQ: I don't like the direction this is heading.
... Official member, DNRC. Individuals beware.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Countdown: one day left
|Date: 14 Feb 96 19:41:14
EID:b15a 204e9d20
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020cfe
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
J.J. HITT spoke thusly to ASMODEUS :
JH> It is also Day TWENTY of Failed Satanic Curse Number TWO.
JH>
JH> Nothing has happened.
JH>
JH> You have only ONE day left in order to destroy me with your
JH> "magick" (on or before February 14th) in order to fulfill the
JH> conditions of Curse Number Three.
It was nice knowing you, JJ.
... The day I stopped learning is the day I die....
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: F=ma (every time) (unles
|Date: 14 Feb 96 19:49:15
EID:3ff6 204e9e20
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d0f
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
PS> PS> Yeah, it does warm the heart. Maybe we can all chip in and get
PS> PS> Fred a cutlass or a boarding pike too.
PS>
PS> DW>
PS> DW> Don't forget the black eyepatch and Jolly Roger.
PS>
PS>And a dagger that he can clench between his teeth.
And a rope. He'll need a rope to swing on.
... "Fundamentalism": The last refuge of the criminally inane.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Goodbye old friend
|Date: 14 Feb 96 19:54:16
EID:5b13 204e9ec0
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d20
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
RYAN SHAW spoke thusly to JUDITH BANDSMA:
RS>Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to All:
RS>
RS> JB> 1st Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States of
RS> JB> America
RS>
RS>While it bugs me that the fuckers in congress passed the bill and
RS>Clinton went on to sign it, things are being done about as I write.
RS>EFF and the ACLU are already readying to take it to court.
RS>
RS>In the meantime, practice civil disobedience and break the law as
RS>often as possible.
I'd disagree. Don't break the law just to break the law. Break it just
as often as you had before.
... If you can't refute a man's arguments, call him names.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Hey, zeus!
|Date: 14 Feb 96 19:58:17
EID:ab0c 204e9f40
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d31
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ALAN HESS spoke thusly to ALL :
AH>Thanks to the power of Zeus, the evil twins Paul Tagliabue and Jack
AH>Kent Cooke have been defeated, and the NFL has returned to Baltimore!
AH>
AH>Had the people in Cleveland obeyed Zeus, they'd still have a team.
Many of us don't give a shit.
... I know just enough to be dangerous!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: I,m still here
|Date: 14 Feb 96 20:17:18
EID:d225 204ea220
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d42
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
SUE ARMSTRONG spoke thusly to SCOT BEAR:
SA> SB> that I am! [hehe]
SA>
SA>Oh, yeah? I challenge thee to a TACKY DUEL! Lava lamps at 10
SA>paces ..
Got one of them . . .
SA>I actually HAD one of those cat clocks with the swinging tails and
SA>moving eyes - and I _liked_ it!
I gave my chem teacher one of those . . . but he had an excuse.
... For the last time, don't exaggerate!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Mark staal the lump
|Date: 14 Feb 96 20:32:19
EID:d3e0 204ea400
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d53
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
FREDRIC RICE spoke thusly to MARK STAAL:
FR>js> .....Buuurrrrr, I thought I felt a cold wind in
FR>here.....FRIGID....AIRE!
FR>Your hatred of women indicates a deep-seated lack of self worth, Jim.
FR>
FR>~*~
FR> your wrong, the Bible is
FR> FM.OVROverlay error: Overlay file has been corruptedUnable to
FR>open overlay file Insufficient memory for overlaysU
FR> ^&G&Wxz&G&WFV* 73_
FR> sv
FR> WWWWWW#X,X2X]
I haven't the slightest idea what this is, but I thought you might want
to see it.
... "I have a French monkey on my back. GET IT OFF!" - Leary
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Definitions for lumpy
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:09:20
EID:cdd3 204f9920
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d64
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
FREDRIC RICE spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
FR>FR> Poor Linda. It's a shame to see someone as nice
FR>FR> as her suffer under the delusions of superstition.
FR>
FR>kdm> Fred, I'm pretty sure that *wasn't* Lynda.
FR>
FR>Lynda _did_ post the above, as I recall. Just because she's usually
FR>reasonable and rational doesn't mean that she's an atheist.
As she said. I know she's a Christian, it's just that she usually keeps
her beliefs and other related items private.
... "And to my cat Mittens I leave my entire, vast...BOOT TO THE HEAD!!"
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Gay gene
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:10:21
EID:1e58 204f9940
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d75
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
SUE ARMSTRONG spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
SA> KDM> they decide to launch the toys. I wouldn't want to be
SA> KDM> responsible for the extinction of the human race.
SA>I don't think it would have made a lot of difference; Germany was
SA>more or less primed for a leader like Hitler in any event -
SA>someone who would "do something" about the econmic situation, the
SA>betrayal of Versailles, the endless elections, and even the "dirty
SA>Jews" who were blamed for most of these ills. Some other tyrant
SA>would likely have appeared instead; though the course of
SA>subsequent events might have been slightly different, the tragedy
SA>that was WWII likely would have went ahead, anyway.
Oh, agreed. As I said, that was a worst case scenario.
... Old virus detected, contact your hacker for an update.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:17:22
EID:89f1 204f9a20
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d86
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MH> MH> So what you're saying is, the eternal creator of the universe
MH> MH> should have no standards for his children? He should let
MH> MH>murderers and rapists waltz on into heaven if they want to?
MH>
MH> KDM> We weren't talking about rapists and murderers, Mike. We were
MH> KDM> talking about Worrell. Annoying as you may find him, I happen
MH> KDM> to consider him a good person, and, IMO, he doesn't deserve to
MH> KDM> go to hell simply because he doesn't believe in the god Jim
MH> KDM> believes in.
MH> In your opinion. However, you aren't a perfectly pure and holy God,
MH>to whom any sin, however small it may seem to us, is a greivous
MH>wrong.
Why? Here we hit the omnipotent bit again. Why is sin distasteful to
an omnipotent being? If it is, Jesus must be having some trying times.
It's very easy to say "Well, *I* don't think you're all that
MH>bad, considering." But you're a sinner like me, like anyone else.
MH>Many people can be good people in comparison to worse people. God
MH>doesn't want us to be good; he wants us to be *perfect.* Anything
MH>less is sin. God, being merciful, is willing to forgive any sin so
MH>long as you admit it is sin. But to say "I'm not all that bad. I
MH>have nothing to confess," is arrogance; it is to presume *your*
MH>judgment is wiser than God's.
True, but I don't have much of a choice; a human viewpoint is the only
one I've ever had.
MH> If David goes to hell, it won't be because of anything he did. It
MH>will be because he was arrogant enough to resent God's demand that
MH>he 'fess up to what he did.
Ah . . . we're straying from the topic, but I'm fairly sure David knows
when he does something wrong. He just doesn't feel he's offending a god
when he does so.
MH> I don't claim sainthood, but I'm a "good person" too, at least as
MH>much as Worrell is. Yet I would never presume that I am good enough
MH>to win God's favor on my own merit. God loves me, and died on a
MH>cross to save me; but I do need to be saved. I know I can't reach
MH> God's standard no matter how good I am.
MH>
MH> It's like this:
MH>
MH>Evil----Bad Folks---Most
MH>Folks---Saints----------------------------Good Satan Hitler
MH>Joe Average Ma Teresa God
MH> Even people who get as close to God as possible fall short of making
MH> it. "ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," Paul says
MH>to the Romans.
Then isn't god being a bit uncompassionate? He's setting an impossible
standard.
MH> There's nothing wrong with being a fallen sinner; we all are.
MH> (Well, it's wrong, but also normal.) There IS something wrong with
MH> being too proud to admit it.
But where did we fall from? The perfection of Adam and Eve? If so,
aren't we being blamed for something we didn't do?
... Anything that is too stupid to be spoken can be sung.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: more dan a. post
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:20:23
EID:709c 204f9a80
MSGID: 1:157/200 50020d97
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
J.J. HITT spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JH> KDM> Oh yeah? Well, don't tell anyone, but . . .
JH> KDM> I'm one of the Twelve Jewish Bankers.
JH>
JH> Great! Can I call you about a loan I'd like to take out?
I'd love to help you, but some moron snuck into Central Command at
Brussels and painted the Beast pink. We're going to have to get a new
Beast. Until then, I'm afraid we're going to have to close all banks.
However, I can make you a gread deal on a Beast Mark IX, a Packard Bell
286 with a 40 meg hard drive. (We use a lot of floppies in Brussels).
... The sweetest of all sounds is the voice of a woman in love.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: One God not three
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:38:00
EID:b860 204f9cc0
MSGID: 1:272/99 0016712a
(On 02-13-96 Brad Jackson replied to Brian Kolacy)
BJ>Hi Brian.
BJ> You are mistaken Brian if you think there are any more Gods
BJ>then Jesus.
BJ>Rev 1:8 (KJV)
BJ>I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
BJ>which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Well, if your god was A to Z, I might just worship him...BTW, when did
Jesus learn Greek?
BJ>Don't be tricked by satan, Brian!
Well, I guess I've got the lines down for when I play Fundy on IRC...
BJ>Brad
BJ>ž CMPQwk #1.4ž UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
Thou shalt not steal...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... You mean they eat their god?? Ewww, gross...
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:38:00
EID:c256 204f9cc0
MSGID: 1:272/99 00167135
(On 02-14-96 AL SCHROEDER replied to BRIAN KOLACY)
A S> BK> I diagree. Christ just had good PR. In fact, he could have
AS> BK> been a totally fictitious historical character. Like King
AS> BK> Arthur, for instance...
AS> Who really existed in the sixth century, Arthurius, dux bellorum, a
AS>sort of celtic commander-in-chief in times of war. Sir John Rhys,
AS>among others, has established it beyond reasonable doubt. True, his
AS>legendry got outrageous, and many of the source documents were
AS>written many centuries after the original happened, when you would
AS>expect additions to accrue. (Merlin,interestingly enough, appears to
AS>have been a poet who lived fifty years away from Arthur's time, in
AS>another court.)
Well, I stand corrected. Still, it works well as a comparison (if not
even better).
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... "Creationist nonsense" is redundant.
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: American Atheists
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:38:00
EID:13fe 204f9cc0
MSGID: 1:272/99 00167140
(On 02-14-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
MH> BK> Robin, Madalyn, and Jon (maybe som emore family members) are
MH> BK> still "missing", and have been in said state for six months:(.
MH> They don't have a prayer. :)
Actually, on Saturday Night Live, when I first heard of their
disappearance, the joke was "The family is asking people not to pray for
them".:)
MH> BK> much money, with very little use). That's all for now...I
MH> BK> *really* wish he knew more about the former leaders'
MH> BK> disappearance...I'm highly curious...
MH> The rapture happened, and they were the only ones who made it. :-D
Heheh:)
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... This tagline invisible to all whose I.Q. exceeds mine.
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: Re: American Atheists
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:38:00
EID:cfe2 204f9cc0
MSGID: 1:272/99 0016714b
(On 02-14-96 Christopher Baker replied to Brian Kolacy)
C B>In a message dated: 12 Feb 96, Brian Kolacy stated:
CB>BK> little use). That's all for now...I *really* wish he knew more
CB>BK> about the former leaders' disappearance...I'm highly curious...
CB>thanks, for the info.
No prob. I got an "official" letter today, forwarded from my previous
address. 'Tis not much more informative, but I'd be happy to type it at
you, if you would like;).
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... "Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:38:00
EID:28af 204f9cc0
MSGID: 1:272/99 00167156
(On 02-13-96 Michael Hardy replied to All )
M H> Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate Christians
MH>for using shareware offline readers for more than 30 days without
MH> registering.
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally
MH>hard on Frederick Leff.
'Tis a different situation, actually. Fred doesn't have a book that
tells him what his ethics should be. That old 'Thous shalt not steal"
thing wouldn't be as effective.
MH> FL> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
Not that I endorse it tho...I register all the stuff I use.
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... HolySmoke: Fundy roadkill on the Information Superhighway.
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 15 Feb 96 23:58:01
EID:a208 204fbf40
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 1716e256
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892248AD
> Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate
> Christians for using shareware offline readers for more
> than 30 days without registering.
> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down
> equally hard on Frederick Leff.
Why would that be, Michael? Fred didn't have anything to do
with that message. It was inserted by my system. ;-)
> FL> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
> Of course, those atheists almost certainly *are* hypocrites.
The joke's on you, Michael. That message originated on my board,
(not Fred's) and Gedit is not running on my board. Notice that
the message (when it appeared) always said 37 days.
Originally, it said:
...This message from Gedit has been annoying people for 2,687 days.
(and other variations thereof)
> ... We have our standards here on Holy Smoke ... at least two.
That would mean double, right?
I haven't seen atheists claiming that the act of using shareware
beyond cutoff date is wrong. What I've seen is atheists pointing
out that doing so is a violation of the fundy commandment which
deals with theft. The only double standard is therefor, that of
the fundy who bootlegs.
--- GodEdit .86
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 0
|Date: 15 Feb 96 00:33:00
EID:b7b9 204f0420
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31235e08
And Brave Sir Judith ran away, screaming "ONE LAST COMMENT 0"!
SA> Though somehow, I can't imagine Quakers haunting anyone. I keep
SA> getting imagaes of that guy on the oatmeal box going "Boo!"
JB> Well, just remember that Quakers also include the likes of Susan B.
JB> Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Lucretia Mott. Those are 3 I
JB> wouldn't want haunting me.
I know who Susan B. is. The second one sort of rings a bell
(prohibitionist?) but the third one completely escapes me.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "You have absolutely no idea what irony is, have you Baldrick?"
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 15 Feb 96 00:35:01
EID:ead6 204f0460
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31235e09
And Brave Sir Dan ran away, screaming "OPINION POLL"!
SA> Aye, laddie. And if _I_ were to get a hold of a set of pipes,
SA> it'd scare hell out of ANYONE.
DC> Puts a different twist on the old analogy, making it into a "woman
DC> trying to wrestle an octopus".
"Wiggle its arms around! Make it look like it's killing you!" -
Ed Wood.
DC> Anhow, they usually have a piper band for the annual Irrigation
DC> Festival Parade. They tune up, if you canna say tha', in the
Irrigation Festival? You Washingtonians will make a festival out
of ANYTHING, won't you? :)
DC> lot across the street from where I work. No matter what anyone
DC> says, the pipes really do call to Danny boy... :)
Ah, just thinking of the bonnie song brings a tear to me eye. :)
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... English Professor - a Limey with a PhD
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: persevere
|Date: 15 Feb 96 00:43:02
EID:38b0 204f0560
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31235e0a
And Brave Sir Dan ran away, screaming "persevere"!
SA> What I find especially revolting is that the title "Right
SA> Honourable" is usually reserved for Prime Ministers in
DC> The very juxtaposition of those terms with Swaggart's name is
DC> revolting.
Well, that's a given, isn't it?
SA> monarchy would have that little slime Swaggart as a PM. Even Mulroney
SA> would be a better choice.
DC> Hmmm, you really must hate that slime Swaggart to go with Mulroney!
Mulroney's just a traitor who'd sell his own mum if he thought
someone (preferably a powerful American) would heap praise on him
for it. I don't want to even imagine what Swaggart would do to a
country - especially a parliamentarian one, in which leaders wield
far more potential power than presidents do.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... Be happy while y'er leevin, for y'er a lang time died.- Scottish motto
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: haggis vs. food
|Date: 15 Feb 96 00:45:03
EID:cdf3 204f05a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31235e0b
And Brave Sir Michael ran away, screaming "haggis vs. food"!
MH> According to Monty Python's Big Red Book, "The Scottish people consider
MH> haggis not only a delicacy, but actually fit for human consumption."
KW> Well, you *can* eat it. But this Scot would have to be pretty hungry
KW> now that I'm old enough not to be bullied over it. As for Scots
KW> delicacies, ever had stoved potatoes? Or venison mincemeat?
MH> Can't say as I have. Are they good?
Having come in late, I'll just interject a bit here about haggis.
I haven't actually had any myself, but I _have_ eaten tripe. It
doesn't really taste like anything - the flavour seems to come
from whatever sauce you cook it in. I didn't find the flavour too
bad .. it was the _texture_ that threw me. I presume the same
holds true for haggis since it, like tripe, is bits of the GI
tract of ruminants.
As for the texture, it's just really .. soft yet chewy - a lot
like snails. Needless to say, I get suckered into trying the
local cuisine easily when I travel. The gods help me if I should
ever wind up in Papua New Guinea.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... CanaDOS - Sure, eh? (B)eauty, eh? (T)ake off, hoser!
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Simon Ewins
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 15 Feb 96 12:59:14
EID:8a9b 204f6760
PID: FleetStreet 1.14 #115
MSGID: 1:250/666 31232ecf
CHRS: IBMPC 2
GM> It's no secret that outside of our fellowship with God, the most
GM> vital connection we have with anyone is the one we share with our
GM> spouse.
Even more importantly, the releationship with the spouse is real whereas
the one with the god-thing is imaginary.
Perhaps less time with imaginary friends and more with real ones would be
very good for you (mental-health-wise).
Take care,
Simon
wiz@axaxa.com
http://www.axaxa.com/axaxa
02/15/96 MAC: FYq&H$kyE!s!F&n$M#sa
... Inåo–s Xpiåē•v: •kvep¢v kai vīkpo.
---
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|From: The Raven
|To: Keith Pachulski
|Sub: THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE A
|Date: 14 Feb 96 11:06:19
EID:2ce2 204e58c0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:272/72.0 891DC4E6
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3121ca39
"This just in from our Moscow bureau..."
AS> And early Christianity was considered a "woman's religion" by the
AS> pagans, much as some regard Wicca now. And the fact that Christians
KP> Wrong..check your facts...Wicca is not "considered" a female
KP> religion.
Hate to burst your bubble, bubbalah, but Wicca is, in some circles,
considered a "woman's religion". It is thought this in the same manner
that
rock and roll was once thought of as "nigra music".
My evidence? Simple: I hold this view of Wicca myself. Sure, its
probably inaccurate, but that is how I view it. Most of the people I see
practicing it are women who are "looking to escape the patriarchal
dictatorship of standard religions and tap into the secret, hidden power
of
the female being". (Quote, unquote from Kathryn Hurdt, proud member of
the
Wiccan faith.)
Jack Butler
... "Facts are stupid things." -- Ronald Reagan
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: John Prewett
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: children
|Date: 15 Feb 96 15:55:40
EID:724d 204f7ee0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 124741f0
FMPT 1012
DW> You're like a fucking bad penny, you know? You just keep turning up.
JP> You are a non-believer. Your name-calling is irrelevant.
DW> Fuck you and the anti-Christ you rode in on, Pre-wit.
Your retort will impress only your fellow dolts.
Your inability to rationally discuss, much less understand,
the issue is noted.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorant of history
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:35:44
EID:f2fe 204f8460
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 124741f1
FMPT 1012
KM> Sunday February 11 1996 22:11, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> Who conducted the Crusades? Who conducted the Inquisitions?
KM> Who conducted the Witch hunts?
FR> Christians, clown. Perhaps you should actually learn the origins of
the
FR> Christanic death cult, Ken, then perhaps you could find the courage
to
FR> escape it. Hatred and bigotry is an ideological baseline for
FR> Christianity -- as you well know. Stop pretending otherwise.
KM> OK, let's be more specific Fred, which church conducted
KM> the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the witch hunts?
FR> The Christanic death cult, silly. Weren't you paying attention?
FR> For centuries Christanics slaughtered millions upon millions of innocent
FR> people, sacrficing them to their death gods. This hatred and bigotry
FR> still exists today through the broad spectrum of Christanic brand names.
KM> Sure I was, maybe I should make myself a little more specific? Which
KM> church conducted the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the witch hunts?
FR> Pretending Christanics aren't "true" Christanics is an evil lie that
FR> Christians are taught to mouth to themselves.
FR> They can't fool their intellectual superiors.
KM> Only intellectual superior I have is God, and I've never tried
KM> to fool him, couldn't. And before you try it, your not my God.
Hi Ken, just wanted you to know others see Fred Rice's
cheap evasion of your easy to answer question.
Fred, like all Christ haters,..
wants to blame Christ for the deeds of wicked men.
Lord help us all. WBW, John
FR> Look at your own hatred, Ken, and note that
FR> the death cult you joined has a history that fits you.
KM>I have no hatred Fred. And I have joined no death cult.Kenneth Mcabee
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:46:08
EID:0713 204f85c0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 124741f2
FMPT 1012
LB> Andrew and Lynda were killing time yakking about Thumb-sucking Fundy:
LB>
AM> There were eyewitnesses who testified to Christ rising from the dead
AM> under duress of death.
AM>
LB> BTW -- I missed exactly what you said here the first time I read this.
LB> NOBODY claimed to have witness Christ "rising from the dead" -- there
LB> ARE claims of his ascencion, but the first witnesses to arrive at the
LB> tomb showed up AFTER THE FACT. If anyone claimed what you say they
LB> did under duress of death, they failed to get their testimony included
LB> in scripture. Lynda Bustilloz
So what ?
While I'm still up throwing electronic
pearls to swine, my wife goes to bed.
I go to bed a few hours later.
I awake. She is not in bed.
I go into the kitchen. She is in the kitchen.
[though I didn't see her get out of bed]
Can I safely conclude she previously got out of bed ?
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 15 Feb 96 19:23:14
EID:90e6 204f9ae0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 124741fb
FMPT 1012
NS> John Prewett > Lynda Bustilloz : of "bats" and "birds"
LB> You mean God's native language is Hebrew?
JP> Looks to me like the Hebrews had a word that basically meant "flying
JP> critter" that did not distinguish between "birds" and "bats" the way
JP> our language does.
JP> Some may find this hard to believe, but it is quite possible to live
JP> a long and happy life without having reason to distinguish between
JP> "birds" and "bats."
NS> You mean that the Hebrews had a word that meant both bird and bat? And
NS> what was that word, please? Unless...you're implying that there was
NS> only one word for flying things, in which case, how did they
NS> differentiate between them? In the passage cited, there is a listing
NS> of a lot of different flying things...if there was a word that just
NS> denoted flying things, then who put in all the extra names, etc.?
Beats me. Find a Hebrew expert that cares.
WBW, John
I'm
NS> willing to bet a year off of Jim Staal's life that there are separate
NS> words for both bat and the other birds listed, and that this is all
a
NS> smokescreen. Hell, I feel so confident, I'll bet TWO years of Jim's
NS> life...
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 15 Feb 96 03:44:00
EID:0f15 204f1d80
MSGID: 1:246/15 311C149A
SR> SW> Focus on the Family is a well respected Christian organization.
SR>
SR> HAhahaha!!! They've sure got you trained well enough.
And look who has you trained...if you can see that is.
SR>
SR> SW> the only master I have is Christ Jesus.
SR>
SR> That is for sure! Bow down and kiss your master's ass...fundy slave!
The Lord rebuke you.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 15 Feb 96 03:48:01
EID:1b08 204f1e00
MSGID: 1:246/15 311C1574
JB> FoF is a well-heeled hate group who, if they called themselves what
JB> they
JB> really are, are no better than the KKK. They HATE...gays, women,
JB> blacks,
JB> Hispanics, orientals, other religions. All in the name of Jesus, of
JB> course.
JB>
Focus on the Family is a Christian organization that is praised for helping
1000's of souls come to Christ. What authority do you have to knock it.
None at all. Take some time to think before you reply, after all you are
in controll arnt you Judith?
Steve
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Ward
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: wrong board
|Date: 15 Feb 96 09:18:04
EID:f83c 204f4a40
MSGID: 1:388/14.0 31234eab
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
While listening in I heard
J.J. Hitt speaking about CPu parts DW> I have a Intel 386dx 25MHZ
motherboard with math
DW> co-proccesser. I"ll take $30.00 dollars for it...
JH> Great! Meet me on the corner of Mudpuppy and Camelback at
JH> 3:00 this afternoon. I'll be wearing a carnation in my navel.
Grow up little boy!
Prov 15:2 The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the
fool gushes folly.
* Wave Rider 1.33 # 761 *
---
* Origin: File Quest (1:388/14)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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PATH: 388/14 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Keith Fletcher
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:48:55
EID:d9c8 204fa600
MSGID: 1:14/640.0 89242E11
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 94-0145
Your comment about the conservatives keeping women from getting the
financial backing to run for office isn't completly true. The Congress
of the U.S. for forty years prior to the 1994 enlightenment was
controled by the democrat party and was quite often very liberal. The
problem of finacial backing transcends gender and ideology. The primary
reason that people like you and me can't get the backing is that we are
not part of the power elite. This elite is both liberal and
conservative. Ted Kennedy is working just as hard as Newt Gintgrich to
maintain the status quo so that they can maintain the source for their
power fixes. The only way to beat this system is by the American people
doing something that they have been unwilling and have been told they
are incapable of doing that is utilize thier brain and think for
themselves. If more people used their God given brains for improvement
of the lot of humanity instead of blindly listening either to the
liberal or conservative dogma being spewed forth by the major parties
humanity would be much better. Listen to both sides with an open mind
pick and choose what you believe from each side and be your own person.
Political discussions are never black and white. A person can have
conservative and liberal ideas without being a counterdiction. Personal
liberties have as much to with owning a gun as being able to smke what
you choose. I get so tired of reading all this black and white, right
and wrong crap being spouted about politcal ideas. The primary thing to
remember is that power and rights are bestowed upon people by their
creator and the people grant government the powers necessary to conduct
the business of the nation. People grant the government rights and
power not the other way around. Wake up america Big Brother is here and
doing quite well thank you.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Palace City BBS (1:14/640.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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PATH: 14/640 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Andy Soell
|Sub: Hello, all!
|Date: 15 Feb 96 12:43:01
EID:10ce aa0b6e61
MSGID: 1:206/2720 170c7d9f
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> From what I've seen scanning through the messages,
> many of you seem very
> cynical of christians....why? There seems to be a
> stereotype (at least
> what I've read) that christians are stupid lazy people
> who are out of
> touch with the world and have closed their
> minds....mind if I ask why?
It seems the only explanation for belief in the Christian God. No less
an authority than Kierkegaard maintained that nothing could be more absurd
than Christianity. Kierkegaard had a bizarre fondness for the absurd (all
right, stupidity and laziness aren't the only possible explanation for Christianity;
insanity can also perhaps cause it), but most of us prefer to deal with
the real world.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 206/2720 2711 270/101 218/801
|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 15 Feb 96 12:50:02
EID:10ce aa0b6e62
MSGID: 1:206/2720 170c7da0
REPLY: 1:272/99 0005998c
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> "Earliest of the Gospels (probably A.D. c70)"
> Wow...Nero was burning
> Christians, even before they had the first Gospel
> written...pretty
> stunning Mike.
It is generally believed that the Gospels were based on an earlier tradition.
Modern scholars don't even believe they were the first bits of the New Testament
to be written; the authentic writings of Paul, whichever they were, were
probably earlier.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2708 2711 2712 2720 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 754/10 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 206/2720 2711 270/101 218/801
|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Gender
|Date: 16 Feb 96 16:02:10
EID:564e 20508040
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 124fcc00
Hello Judith!
Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to Styx Allum:
JB> No, Styx, it is an attempt to reach into a male brain and
JB> show it just how insidious sexism is and can be. You've
JB> never known what it's like to look at that glass ceiling. To
JB> be asked to train the MAN who will get the promotion to the
JB> job you have been doing for years without the pay or the
JB> title. To see women qualified to run for office passed over
JB> for party support because they 'have a family'. (Male
JB> candidates don't have families?) Or worse, because of their
JB> looks.
Tell me Judith, is it an urban legend that most business
interest in USA is owned by women? One comes across this
statement now and again, always presented as a fact.
If this is so, there should be no economic reason why
women could not run for political office, should they so desire.
I see the present struggle here in South Africa, where a
traditionally patriarchal society has to transform itself into
gender equality - and the agony is equal among black and white
men. Even Mandela's wishes can't make this happen as quickly
and smoothly as female voters would like - but where there is
will there is way...
I myself grew up with gender equality in Denmark, where
politicians (and plumbers, and engineers) have approx a 50/50
distribution - and so did my husband (in Israel). None of us
have ever given much attention to equality battles, as both
of us always felt equal, both at home and out in the big bad
world.
JB> And I ain't no martyr nor do I feel 'persecuted'. You have
JB> to be seen to be persecuted. Why do the male salesmen I talk
JB> to automatically assume that I am only a secretary instead
JB> of the owner of my business? Why do the computer people who
JB> call here insist on talking to my husband instead of to me?
JB> (Especially since my husband wouldn't know a logical
JB> partition from a log pile.) Even when they are told that *I*
JB> am the user in this household. They aren't persecuting
JB> me...it is even worse than that. They don't see me as valid,
JB> if they even see me at all.
Now, this is not my experience at all. Since 1983 we have been
running our own chemical import business from home, and men always
seem to get the message very quickly whom of us it is most beneficial
to talk to. The real offenders are without any doubt secretaries,
making the assumption that they are speaking to another secretary,
and then getting terrible flustered that they have been snooty
and overbearing to the MD. Any computer stuff comes automatically
my way as my husband is a *user*, and sounds like one :-)
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 7107/21 9 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 13 Feb 96 09:52:44
EID:a393 204d4e80
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3123acbb
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 11c08f80
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> I hope that gives you some idea. All these attributes come from the
AM> bible.
RS> And so does the mass killings. Answer the damn question. Why does
RS> your god murder?
What mass killings you refering to?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: The Raven
|Sub: flood
|Date: 14 Feb 96 09:44:25
EID:5d69 204e4d80
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3123acbc
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 311c98b5
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting The Raven to Andrew Masten <=-
TR> "This just in from our Moscow bureau..."
AM> I'll be honest with you Lynda, that was a difficult question for me
AM> to answer. Almost anything I say can be construed as chauvinist.
TR> Got news for you... almost everything you've already said has
TR> been construed as chauvinist.
AM> I didn't give a good answer. But the bible clearly says that Christ
is
AM> the head of man, and man is the head of women. Thats a very unpopular
AM> thought today. So is loving your neighbor as yourself. Blessing those
AM> who persecute you. Fidelity in marriage ect.
TR> And you are saying... what... that the reason why society is so
TR> messed up is because men are no longer the ultimate authority in the
TR> family setting? Sorry, but that doesn't quite wash. I'll grant that
TR> stricter and more active parenting is needed, pointed toward instilling
TR> basic ideals of common decency, but I do not necessarily think that,
in
TR> order to do this, we have to go back to the Victorian era rules of
TR> women being seen but not heard - a woman's place is in the kitchen -
TR> men in the parlor with cigars and brandy type society you seem to be
TR> advocating.
No, TR, I'm not advocating anything of the sort. Actually, all I was
really doing is answering a question. I wasn't pontificating or telling
anyone what to do. God has a couple of rules for marriage, but they
apply only to couples who are trying to set themselves apart and live
for God. If someone doesn't believe in God, they can run thier marriage
anyway they want.
AM> Though God is no respector of persons, he does give people different
AM> positions. The higher position the more accountable. The bible
AM> admonishes man to love his wife even as Christ loved the church. The
AM> failure in many marriages is for men to live up to this standard.
TR> Explain this. Just what is it that men are supposed to be doing?
I can tell you what men who claim to be Christians should be doing:
Putting thier wife and children ahead of themselves. That about sums
it up right there.
AM> No, your wrong there, study other cultures that reject the
AM> Christian-Judeo ethic and see how well the women are treated. Asain
AM> and Arab cultures treat women as dogs.
TR> "Reject"? They haven't "rejected" anything. They've stayed true
TR> to their own culture. IN any case, its not universal: the Lakota
Your the second to point that out, and your quite right.
TR> Sioux view women as exact equals, in social terms, as do the Seminole.
TR> It is accepted that there are things that men do better than women and
TR> vice versa (examples: fighting in the case of men, negotiating in the
TR> case of women), but the differences do not give rise to thoughts of
TR> superiority because of them.
TR> Jack Butler
God treats men and women as equals also. But he holds the man accountable
for his family. So he gives him more authority. But it isn't to brow beat
or abuse. Its a responsibility, not a privilage.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: hi
|Date: 13 Feb 96 10:35:50
EID:44f7 204d5460
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3123acbd
REPLY: 1:272/99 0013e3d3
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Andrew Masten <=-
AM>
AM> AM> No. I'm under the new covenent, not the old. The N.T. also
AM> AM> forbids witch craft ect. ect.
BK> Wait a minute...Did Christ say "Ok, forget all the old stuff, this is
BK> what your supposed to do now", or was he just appending what your god
BK> said? If your under a "new covenent" [sic], why does your Bible
BK> contain the Old Testament?
The new testament is a fulfilment of the old testament, not an annulment.
Christ said to love your neighbor as yourself, and you would be living
by the law and the prophets.
Just out of curiosity, if you think Christ is no more that a fictitional
character, why the concern with what Christians believe??
Cheers!!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 14 Feb 96 09:55:14
EID:9982 204e4ee0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3123acbe
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 311c98b6
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting The Raven to Andrew Masten <=-
TR> "This just in from our Moscow bureau..."
AM> Evidence for fine tuning of universe.
AM> 1. Strong nuclear force constant
AM> 2. Weak nuclear force constant
AM> 3. Gravitational force constant
AM> 4. Electromagnetic force constant
AM> 5. Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force
AM> constant
AM> 6. Ratio of electron to protron mass
AM> 7. Ratio of protron to number of electrons
AM> 8. Expansion rate of universe
AM> 9. Entropy level of universe
AM> 10. Mass density of universe
AM> 11. Velocity of light
AM> 12. Age of universe
TR>
TR> In a word, bullshit. No offense meant here, but jeez... this
TR> argument boils down to just another type of the "Isn't it *obvious*"
TR> argument. (If you aren't familiar with this argument, it goes like
TR> this: Q: "What evidence do you have to show that evolution isn't
TR> real?" A: "Isn't it obvious?" Q: "What evidence do you have that
TR> God exists?" A: Isn't it obvious?"
If your going to make my argument for me, please do a better job than that.
TR> What you are saying is that God created the universe because the
TR> universe is the way it is. I can still say that it's not God, it's
TR> blind stinking doo-dah idiot luck and *still* have just as much
TR> evidenciary luck to support my statement as you do.
Thats my point exactly, either blind stinking idiot luck, or by design
and for a reason. Of course, you believe whatever you want.
AM> Why do these men (who are by no means "fundies") say this? How
AM> astronomical do the odds have to be against impersonal nature
AM> to create a habitat so beneficial for us?
TR> Because, though not fundies, they are Christians. (Yes,
TR> Virginia, there is a difference.)
Paul Davies is an athiest (there is a difference).
TR> Carl Sagan once said that the existence of the universe cannot be
TR> used as evidence of God because our opinions on the universe are moot.
TR> The universe is the way it is because it is. We are not the end result
TR> of the universe... just one small transitory part. Your mistake is
TR> assuming that the universe was created just so, with the ultimate
TR> intention of creating us. Wrong. Arrogant and presumtive. We are
as
TR> we are because the universe is as it is, not the other way around.
How is your thought any less presumtive?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 14 Feb 96 09:32:19
EID:e8b3 204e4c00
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3123acbf
REPLY: 1:272/99 0013e3f8
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Andrew Masten <=-
BK> (On 02-06-96 Andrew Masten replied to Frederick Leff)
AM> FL> Oh come on now, you can do better than that! I have read the
AM> FL> bible and it says that your god kills millions of people (ie-
AM> FL> the flood), takes back his word, lies, etc... Tell me what your
AM> FL> god is like, who is he?
AM> God is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.
BK> Ps. 18:41, Isa 1:15, Matt 27:46
AM> God loves unconditionally.
BK> Matt. 25:46, Num 11:1
AM> He is just.
BK> Exod.20:5, Gen9:25
AM> But He is merciful.
BK> Jer 13:14
AM> He knows the future as if it already happened.
BK> Gen 3:8
AM> He is not a man that He should lie.
BK> Thess. 2:11, Ezek 14:9
AM> He changes not.
BK> Gen 6:6
AM> There is none beside him.
BK> Gen. 1:26, Gen. 3:22.
AM> He has a sense of humor.
BK> Gen. 17:10, Gal 5:2
AM>I hope that gives you some idea. All these attributes come from the
AM>bible.
BK> As do the ones I list that contradict yours. I could find some more,
BK> but, since you haven't even read your Bible completely, it would be
a
BK> waste of time.
Brian, its nice to see you read the bible, its a shame you don't know what
it means. You quoted instances when God was either smitting the enemies
of Israel, or chastising His own people. Have your parents ever corrected
you? Did it mean they didn't love. I let you know a little secret, if they
didn't correct you, it was because they didn't love you.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolungelical
|Date: 14 Feb 96 09:38:42
EID:4b14 204e4cc0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3123acc0
REPLY: 1:206/2720 15804c55
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Andrew Masten <=-
> "When it come to the origins of life there are
> only to possiblities:
> Creation or spontaneous generation (evolution).
> There is no third way.
> Spontaneous generation was disproved 100 years
> ago, but that leads us
> to only one other conclusion: that of supernatural
> creation. We cannot
> accept that on philosophical grounds. Therefore we
> choose to believe
> the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by
> chance."
> Is this the writings of some wild eyed bible
> thumping fanatic? No
> its a quote from George Wald winner of the 1967
> science Nobel Peace
> Prize.
AB> The trouble is, spontaneous generation per se has never been
AB> disproved. It was proven that spontaneous generation does not occur
AB> in dead animal flesh, but that isn't what a theory of mundane origin
AB> for life requires. As I understand it, recent research has indicated
AB> that RNA can catalyze the formation of other RNA. Thus, all that
AB> would be required for life to appear would be a self-replicating RNA
AB> strand. DNA and proteins would be later mutations, in accord with
AB> evolution. This is entirely consistent with the data that spontaneous
AB> generation isn't going on these days, because matter which would be
AB> useful for producing such RNA is prone to being immediately snatched
AB> up by one of the much more highly evolved lifeforms that are around
AB> these days. In other words, George Wald didn't have a clue (assuming
AB> you're quoting him accurately).
I did quote him correctly. A problem you wouldn't have since you quote
no one in your refutation. Then you suggest this man who won a science
nobel peace prize hasn't a clue, but you do? What credentials do you have?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Eric Hendrix
|To: Ross Catto
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 15 Feb 96 05:24:35
EID:d531 204f2b00
MSGID: 1:289/80 31244B2C
RC> Okay, peaceful debate. First off, people should be free to
Finally. Thank you.
RC> Okay, peaceful debate. First off, people should be free to
RC> believe,and have faith in whatever or whoever they want to. There
RC> have beenthousands of gods throughout history. Your faith in the
RC> Christiangod(s) basically rests on the Bible if I'm reading you
I agree totally. I don't try to force it down anyone else's throat, just
simply say what I believe. Yeah, you read me right. I rely on the Bible,
mostly the New Testament. The Old Testament has some things in it, which
Jesus has made different. Such as the "Eye for an Eye". Jesus tells us to
"turn the other cheek". I can see how such contradictions could make people
wonder...
RC> realize that faith transcends reason, but God did give us reasoning
RC> minds to use, to discern. For example, many of the Christian cults
Excellent point. Faith transcends reason. This was one of the main points
I was trying to make. People have tried to prove to me that God doesn't
exist, but, my faith transcends their reason. True, God gave us minds to
do as we wish. He didn't want puppets on a string, but, like any Father,
wants to see if we are going to "mind" him.
RC> right according to the Bible. I don't think how you 'feel' when
RC> you're talking to someone is a good guide to truth. Therefore,
Perhaps not truth, but definitely faith.
RC> contradictions. We also find a very vindictive, racist, and
RC> harsh god in the Old Testament, which is 3/4 of the Bible.
RC> Much of this attitude is often present in Christians today.
RC> Because of its exreme negativity, Christians often pick and
Ok, I was told this by several preachers. They told me to concentrate my
study on the New Testament since I am a Christian, and most of Christ's
teachings are in the NT. Then, study the OT. If I find such contradictions,
I am supposed to go with the NT, since I am a Christian.
RC> conditions,and had to do mainly with animals. The commands to 'owe
RC> no mananything', both OT and NT, are ignored.
On the contrary. I own no credit cards, and have no loans (other than necessities)
because of this command. Anything I want, I save up for it and when I get
the cash, I buy it.
Thanks for the reply,
Eric...
* SPITFIRE v3.51
--- Alexi/Mail 2.00 (#10000)
* Origin: Terminal Velocity * Macks Creek, Mo (1:289/80) (1:289/80)
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|From: Pam Gray
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 14 Feb 96 17:40:32
EID:0705 204e8d00
MSGID: 1:250/1004 17840137
Boni,
I don't know... you have to ask him yourself... anyway I was going to write
in
the base for you to agree to disagree and not bother writing to him because
his views will not change and of course you are very strong in yours...
I won't of course take sides but suffice it to say I think you should take
the
first step if you know what I mean! :)
BH> Oh well, we're not getting our fidonet mail here anyway thru for some reason> so we don't have to worry about it!
Ahhhh... I know... I sent a few replies out to some people and of course
I
haven't gotten them.
Take care,
Pam
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosśMusicśArtśCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 15 Feb 96 18:19:21
EID:f1b3 204f9260
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 123a7f60
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31213cc0
David Worrell wrote in a message to Fredric Rice:
DW> 11 Feb 96 18:13, Fredric Rice wrote to David Worrell:
DW> with: Terry Liberty-Parker
DW> speaking of that putz, do you want to bet his name used to
DW> be just plain old Terry Parker, until he got swept up in
DW> this militia craze?
Hey jerkface, did you have something you wanted to say to me; or do you
just do your cowardly snipping behind your would-be opponents back?
By the way, what do your comments add to the alleged topic of this echo;
or did you think you were posting to the 'net butt buddies gossip' echo?
dw>> you actually posted something useful. Amazing.
dw>> See what you can do if you put your mind to it?
I have every confidence that you and your LOSER buddies will find a way
to discount it's value. That's why you're losers.
FR> It's a sad state of affairs when even right-wing extremist lunatics
FR> find something in common with rational people.
Oh isn't Fred a sweetie? After many exchanges that made it obvious that
libertarians support freedom in common with lefties and righteis he still
manages to obsess on his very own bias. Good ole steadfast Fred, reality
will NOT disuade his prejudice.
DW> It is almost enough to make me wonder if the CDA us a *good*
DW> thing. If it pissed Parker off, it can't be all bad.
Well there it is. You found a way to discount info that YOU had deemed
useful. Of course LOSERS will support infringing their kids birthright of
freedom if it MIGHT undermine the target of their irrational prejudice.
Losers don't create value and if something of value comes their way they
find a way to discount it and jack each other off with it. That's why they're
LOSERS.
ENJOY,
Terry
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:36:43
EID:87fe 204fa480
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 123e464b
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from "David Casti" (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Feb 15 '96, 20:31
Apparently-to: 804!terry.liberty-parker
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:05:00 -0800 (PST)
From: "David Casti"
Hi folks,
I don't know if you-all have already seen this, but there was some good
news
from counsel today. (I'm a plaintiff in the ACLU's suit.)
David.
------ Forwarded Message
We just received the Order from Judge Buckwalter about the TRO.
47 U.S.C. Section 223(a) regarding "indecency" is enjoined. "Patent
offensiveness" is *not* enjoined, nor is 223(d) regarding the abortion
provisions.
We believe you are still at risk of prosecution considering what we believe
to the be the vagueness regarding "patent offensiveness."
More details will follow tomorrow.
------ End of Forwarded Message
=============================================================
David Casti Queer Resources Directory
david@casti.com Managing System Administrator
=============================================================
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Australian Net Censorship
|Date: 15 Feb 96 23:15:18
EID:3473 204fb9e0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1241177c
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Dan Tebbutt (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Feb 15 '96, 23:08
Apparently-to: 804!terry.liberty-parker
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:13:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Tebbutt
In keeping with the list's stated secondary objective "to serve as a discussion
forum for similar legislation or regulation that may be in the formative
or final stages in any other country, or at any local jurisdiction that
would restrict, limit or inhibit use of Internet resources based on
"decency", "morality", "offensiveness"", I post the following a story I
wrote
for PC Week Australia in 13 December 95 issue (page 8):
States to Censor Online Services
By Dan Tebbutt
Victoria and Western Australia recently became the first states to legislate
for censorship of on-line services. As part of the national framework agreed
upon earlier this year by the Standing Committee of Attorneys General, the
two
state legislatures have passed bills that leave primary censorship in the
hands
of service providers.
The Kennett government's Classification (Publications, Films and Computer
Games) (Enforcement) Bill has passed through both house of the Victorian
Parliament and awaits vice-regal assent. Part 6 of the bill deals with on-
line
information services. Victorian Attorney General Jan Wade said the legislation
would not be used to prosecute service providers acting in the normal conduct
of their business. ``The bill places service providers in a special category
to
ensure they are not liable, except in circumstances of deliberate transmission
of illegal material,'' she said. An on-line service provider is exempted
from
liability under this provision unless it ``knowingly publishes, transmits
or
makes available for transmission to a minor'' the classified material. It
is
also an offence to advertise the availability of objectionable material
from
an on-line service.
Prison terms of up to two years and hefty fines are set out for various
offences under part 6. Publishing or transmitting objection- able material
through an on-line service is an offence, although it is a defence that
the
person did not believe the material was objectionable, provided they have
``reasonable grounds'' for such belief. The bill defines ``objectionable
material'' as an objectionable publication or film or a computer game dealing
with sex, drug misuse, crime, cruelty, violence or ``revolting or abhorrent
phenomena'' according to reasonable adults' standards of ``morality, decency
and propriety''. It also prohibits depictions of people who appear to be
younger than 16 engaging in sexual activity.
An on-line information service is broadly defined as ``a service which permits,
through a communication system, on- line computer access to or transmission
of
data or computer programs''. Providing unsuitable material to minors is
also
criminalised, subject to two defences: firstly if the person accused ``did
not
know and could not reasonably have known'' that the recipient was a minor
and
secondly that the person took ``reasonable steps'' to avoid transmitting
material to a minor. These provisions are conjunctive and the second may
require a person to show how they tried to avoid allowing minors to access
prohibited information. The second defence is a reasonable belief that the
material was not unsuitable.
The Victorian Labor opposition described the bill as ``unworkable'' and
criticised the Liberal government for not consulting with the on-line industry
and users. ``The new laws create a nightmare for parents and others who
have to
make these judgements,'' said shadow attorney general Bruce Mildenhall.
``Experts concede that the massive size and anonymity of the Internet makes
it
impossible to censor and control material. By passing legislation that is
unenforceable, the government has demonstrated it has no commitment to enforce
bans on pornography.''
Liberal backbencher Victor Perton (http://www.vicnet.net.au/~ victorp/vp.htm)
is acknowledged as one of the few `Net-savvy' politicians in Australia.
He
recently commented across the Internet: ``If parliaments don't deal with
the
Internet, they're characterised as Luddites. If they legislate, they're
referred to as `clueless'. ``We are not clueless. It is evident that much
of
the objectionable material comes from jurisdictions outside Australia. The
nature of the Internet is such that people will shop, gamble and interact
out
of the reach of the regulatory authorities,'' he added. He wrote that the
Victorian bill ``clearly excludes service providers unless they have been
criminally culpable''.
Melbourne-based ISP Access One described the legislation as ``rushed, ill-
conceived and ill-considered''. General manager Dawson Johns said: ``People
are
struggling with this around the world, so how is it that Victoria can pass
legislation so quickly? The government has a problem: people are looking
to it
to solve the insoluble issue. It is unfortunate that there has been a lot
of
bad press about things that are minor and incredibly rare. ``What are we
trying
to defend against?'' Johns asked. He hoped the law's enforcability would
never
be tested and wondered whether its enforcement would be as intended. He
suggested parents ought to take responsibility for children, just as they
manage their access to television.
Meanwhile, the Western Australian government of Premier Richard Court has
passed a Censorship Bill imposing severe penalties for child pornography
and
seeking to modernise that state's classifications regime. Like the Victorian
legislation, the WA bill creates offences relating to transmission, possession,
demonstration and advertisement of material known to be objectionable in
on-line services, e-mail BBSs and computer games.
``However, despite any legislation which is put in place, the ultimate
responsibility for protecting minors from accessing this material must rest
with parents and educational institutions,'' said WA Attorney General Cheryl
Edwardes. She advocated physical supervision and the use of software filtering.
``Clearly the government is aware that any action it takes is limited to
people
within WA and that much of what is available through the Internet, in
particular, originates outside its jurisdiction,'' Edwardes said.
WA prepared its legislation after consultation with the federal government,
the
Office of Film and Literature Classification, industry representatives and
community groups. The minister said decisions have been taken in line with
the
National Classification Code and guidelines developed by state, territory
and
federal officials. Service providers who knowingly distribute objectionable
material could face fines of up to $75,000 while individuals who infringe
the
law face up to 18 months behind bars and $15,000 fines. As in Victoria,
users
are the main target of the bill, with service providers unaffected unless
they
allow material they know to be objectionable to be transferred on their
services.
The WA legislation is due to come into force on January 1, 1996.
Copyright Dan Tebbutt 1995
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 16 Feb 96 10:03:08
EID:4cbe 20505060
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 1249d280
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892248AD
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to All:
I've chosen to come back to this after further research.
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally
MH> hard on Frederick Leff.
The message was posted from Styx's system, so perhaps you should get on
Styx for this. BUT...
FL> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
MH> Of course, those atheists almost certainly *are* hypocrites.
After looking over the last 5,000 messages that I hold here and checking
the kludges of the messages in question I've determined that Styx doesn't
use GEdit on his system, in fact the TAGLINE stays the same no matter which
date it was posted on.
You took the fundy bait hook, line, and sinker.
How does it feel, Mickey?
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Many Gods
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:41:52
EID:a8c0 204f8520
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 312473c3
Brad Jackson said "Many Gods" to Fredric Rice,
adding:
FR>bj> I myself have a hard time understanding why people don't believe
FR>in God!
FR>That's because you're ignorant and a superstitious fool incapable of
FR>reason. Since there is no evidence for the existance of any deities,
FR>the lack of belief in deities signifys reason.
BJ> How can you say that I am superstitious? I am not afraid to walk
BJ> under a later or cross the path of a black cat.
BJ> You say I have a lack of evidence to back up that there is only
BJ> one God. I have a book with around 1400 pages full of evidence.
You have, rather, a book containing around 1,400 pages
of propaganda. Produce some corroborating evidence for a god
(any god--we're not fussy), and THEN your book may have some
status greater than a National Enquirer.
And you are superstitious to the exact degree that you
believe in the unevidenced supernatural. That's "ladder",
incidentally.
Later, you say to Brian Kolacy:
BK>BJ> BK> Actually, there are considerably more gods than three. Odin
BK>BJ> BK> is going to be really pissed when he hears about this. I'd
BK>BJ> BK> stay indoors during the next thunderstorm, if I were you.
BJ> You are mistaken Brian if you think there are any more Gods then
BJ> Jesus.
I see. You are, then, an atheist in regard to Kali, Odin,
Vishnu, Allah, JouJou, Venus, et al. My atheism only exceeds
yours by one.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:51:40
EID:eefd 204f8660
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 312473c4
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3122a72c
Preston Simpson said "AN INTERESTING SITUATION." to Don Martin,
adding:
PS> It's not bad, actually. Most of the time, I stay in it just long
PS> enough to drop to DOS and run things that way (with 16 meg and a 120
PS> MHz Pentium, there isn't much of a problem).
DM> Why does this maneuver remind me of getting religion in
DM> order to better enjoy the backsliding?
PS> The only reason I bothered with putting Windows 95 on there was
PS> because I figure that more and more programs will be geared to run from
PS> it in the future and I might as well save myself the trouble of
PS> installing it by taking care of it now.
Sadly, this is probably true. I am faced by the dismal
prospect of having to install windows if I can ever afford a
CD-ROM, for that very reason.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000
SEEN-BY: 261/1041 1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060
SEEN-BY: 261/3090 3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Andy Soell
|Sub: Homosexual Christians
|Date: 15 Feb 96 16:53:53
EID:dc16 204f86a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 312473c5
Andy Soell said "Homosexual Christians" to Marty Leipzig,
adding:
-> PS> ... Christian - born brain dead and still is that way.
->
->
-> ... Christian - Born brain dead, reborn and still is that way.
AS> Hmmm...how do you figure on either of these? I know some very
AS> intelligent Christians (myself far from being one.)
Just read their effusions around here for a couple of
weeks, and no one will have to answer your question for you.
Sure, intelligent Christians doubtless exist, but the
defenders of the faith that show up on HolySmoke are
generally not among that number.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Ward
|Sub: CPu parts
|Date: 15 Feb 96 07:05:56
EID:51a3 204f38a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3122db7c
REPLY: 1:388/14.0 311f2f84
12 Feb 96 06:16, Don Ward wrote to :
DW> I have a Intel 386dx 25MHZ motherboard with math co-proccesser. I"ll
DW> take $30.00 dollars for it...
Not only do you steal shareware, you apparently also try to rob people...
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: One God
|Date: 15 Feb 96 07:08:46
EID:3480 204f3900
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3122dc38
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 31207eb1
12 Feb 96 17:07, Don Martin wrote to Brad Jackson:
BJ>> The answers are in the bible just waiting your you to discover
BJ>> them.
DM> That is NOT an aswer, Smegmabrain. Answer the nice man's
DM> question, directly and in your own words.
Forget to take your Geritol last night, Don? :)
Be careful, or Hardly will futilely try to take you to task, as he has done
with me.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: F'req Censorship Law and Suit
|Date: 16 Feb 96 08:34:36
EID:f8ef 20504440
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1248a9ed
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: IMA) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Terry Liberty-Parker (1:382/804.0) to All.
Original dated: Feb 16 '96, 07:33
Hello All!
I have the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and the ACLU law suit about it
available at LibertyBBS (512)462-1776 (28k @ 444-0522).
The Teleom Act is F'name TCA_1996.ZIP in the EFF files area, and a .txt
version for viewing on line is in the ACLU files area. The ACLU law suit
to enjoin enforcement is in the ACLU files area as CENSUIT.TXT and is also
viewable on line.
All files are now available for download by any user and will be available
for F'req after my daily utilities run by about 6am Saturday. If you log
in as a user normal access is granted upon the registering call; no need
for a callback. Use a 'real sounding' name if you don't want to use you
own.
ENJOY,
Terry
___ timEd 1.00+
- Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 234/300 235/203 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Electronic Libraries & Censorship
|Date: 16 Feb 96 15:57:48
EID:4326 20507f20
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 124fadae
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Jon Noring (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Feb 16 '96, 11:51
Apparently-to: 804!terry.liberty-parker
Received: from earth.willamette.edu (earth.willamette.edu [158.104.100.101])
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:51:09 -0800 (PST)
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From: villa.fc.net!netcom.com!noring (Jon Noring)
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: --> Effect of the CDA on Electronic Libraries
I'm also reposting this to CDA96-L for feedback and criticism.
Jon Noring
OmniMedia
******************************************************************************
After writing my press release regarding the effect of the CDA (the so-called
"Indecency" provision of the Telecommunications Reform Act) on the electronic
book publishing industry, it dawned on me that the CDA would have equally
disastrous consequences on the future development of electronic libraries.
For the press release, check either 'comp.org.eff.talk, or try
http://www.aros.net/~noring/pressrel.txt
This press release gives a good background to the ramifications of the CDA,
most of which will not be repeated here.
My view is that in a CDA-free world, electronic libraries have a very bright
and promising future. I and others have written elsewhere that it is only
a
matter of time (possibly in as little as 15-20 years) when electronic books
will outsell paper books. This will make it possible to move many of the
functions of public libraries to the digital realm, allowing citizens to
download (or rent on-line?) many electronic texts and documents from central
locations, thus freeing up local libraries to focus their scarce resources
on
local-specific holdings, which, in principle could also be electronically
accessible.
The possibility of going all electronic for public libraries has its profound
economic and convenience advantages -- it would not be surprising if billions
of dollars per year could be saved by our communities and give the library
patrons a much greater selection of documents as well as convenience. Of
course, it will be quite a while before the necessary infrastructure is
put
into place, such as the development and market penetration of ultra-high-
resolution and dirt-cheap portable book readers containing very high density
storage (this may be a couple of decades off). There are also the legal
and
copyright aspects of electronic lending libraries which must be dealt with,
but this is solvable, in my opinion (and a side-issue to this discussion
anyway.) Thus, it is not a matter of "if" total electronic public libraries
are possible or desirable, but "when".
However, if the current CDA is kept intact, it will effectively outlaw the
kind of public libraries we have today from going electronic, to the loss
of
the citizen as well as costing us billions of dollars per year, since the
cost of operating "paper" libraries is getting prohibitively expensive.
And why would they be outlawed? It is easily seen that well over half of
all
books today contain one or more of the so-called 'seven dirty words' which
are defined to be "indecent", and which the CDA will not allow distribution
on any public electronic network under *any circumstances*. Even many legal
decisions, such as the "Pacifica" ruling which determined these "seven words"
to be "indecent" (and not obscene, big difference), cannot themselves be
electronically distributed, thus affecting electronic law libraries as well!
Even the King James Bible is "indecent" by the "Pacifica" ruling!
In addition, the electronic libraries will not be able to carry anything
dealing with abortion, birth control, human sexuality, gay/lesbian/bi issues,
etc., not to mention anything else that the most conservative community
in
the U.S. has unilaterally decided to be "indecent", since by the provisions
of the CDA, as well as complementary court rulings, their overly-broad
definition of "indecent" will be forced on the rest of us! The ramifications
of this to our socially-accepted right to have free access to *all*
information is severely infringed, not to mention the profound First
Amendment and other Constitutional implications of the CDA. And it will
cost
us billions of dollars to keep a few folks in Tennessee placated.
This is no way to run a public library.
In essence, the CDA is very bad public policy and needs to be struck down
(preferable), or drastically altered to better reflect sane public policy
and a balance of *all* peoples' rights -- some citizens should not have
more
rights than others. And let's not forget the billions of dollars the CDA
will cost us in higher public expenditures to keep obsolete libraries open,
as well as the negative effects on U.S. business as I outlined in my prior
press release.
Jon Noring
OmniMedia
--
OmniMedia Electronic Books | URL: http://www.awa.com/library/omnimedia
9671 S. 1600 West St. | Anonymous FTP:
South Jordan, UT 84095 | ftp.awa.com /pub/softlock/pc/products/OmniMedia
801-253-4037 | E-mail: omnimedia@netcom.com
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___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: preachin'
|Date: 16 Feb 96 11:47:23
EID:e99e 20505de0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3124f963
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 311bd129
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Hector were killing time yakking about preachin':
LB> Just trying to keep the definitions straight, Fred. Based on this,
since
LB> Mike is keeping nonbelievers out of his "fantasy construct", Mike is
NOT
LB> a fundy, right?
HP> Were you unaware that Mikey wants to legislate his "fantasy
HP> construct"-inspired morality on the rest of us, Lynda? He's
HP> made it quite clear, remember?
Yup -- I do. That's why I was careful to say "based on this"...it has to
do
with something Fred and I were discussing in #holysmoke. (You know, with
participation in "holysmoke live" building, folks are going to be even more
convinced that Fido's acting up when they see references to conversations
they
never saw) :)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: CHRISTIANITY
|Date: 16 Feb 96 11:57:49
EID:4ec5 20505f20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3124f964
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Judith were killing time yakking about CHRISTIANITY:
LB> GAK!! You'll more likely find "intelligent, peaceful debate on the
LB> views of Christianity" here in Holysmoke than you'll ever find it under
LB> Steve Winter's moderation!
JB> I know that. But I don't think he did.
(G) You're an eviiiil heathen, Judith. But then, you knew that already.
;)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Debate: it lures de fish.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 16 Feb 96 12:06:17
EID:7c8b 205060c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3124f965
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 16947475
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Scot and Styx were killing time yakking about Jim Staal:
>> After seeing what just happened, I wonder what Styx will
>> say to the following 2 words?
>>
>> PAT BUCHANAN
SA> It would please me immensely to see him drop dead of "natural causes".
SA> That dickweed is dangerous, and does not belong in the republican
SA> party (IMO).
If he becomes the party's nominee, will you vote Republican this year?
SA> For someone who protests homophobic bigotry, you hypocritically
SA> exhibit many of the same tendencies toward my political orientation.
I understand your point, but there is a difference -- what Scot does in
the
privacy of his own home has no affect on anyone, other than possibly subjecting
them to a bit of queasiness if they insist on trying to picture it. Assumably,
your views are not just opinions, but something you vote on -- and that
vote
affects all of us. This is no different then Mike not only personally finding
abortion to be wrong, but voting in an attempt to force that opinion on
our
country -- and taking a lot of grief in here for expressing it.
SA> You acted as though I were a friend of yours until such time as
SA> you learned of my conservative political ideologies. Much the same
SA> as a homophobe would until learning that his friend is gay.
Did you miss the part where Scot said that his personal respect for YOU
was
separate from that for your political views? I think you should take him
at
his word on this.
SA> Well, my being a republican should have no more bearing upon being
SA> friends... than what your being gay should. They're simply a part
SA> of who and what we are.
Right. But does that make those topics untouchable? Surely, you knew what
reaction you would engender by discussing it. Christians are given no
protection from facing hard responses to their religious views (which are
primarily said to be troublesome because of their effect on those who believe
differently) -- why should your politics, which have a far more direct affect
-- be accorded some special status?
SA> Learn from your own hatred, Scot. Learn what friendship entails.
SA> I'm not gonna try to force you to be a friend, whether you care to
SA> be or not; but if you expect to be, you'll need to recognize
SA> that we have differences. You equate conservatives with Christians.
Styx -- from this side of the monitor, it began when you equated LIBERALS
with
Christians. Scot just handed it back to you. If it offends you, perhaps
you should both back up, and do what you both want Christians to do. Stop
confusing religion with politics.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "A cult is a religion with no political power." -- Wolfe
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 16 Feb 96 17:41:26
EID:d97f 20508d20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 118042b2
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3124f965
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda Bustilloz wrote in a message to Styx Allum:
>> PAT BUCHANAN
SA> It would please me immensely to see him drop dead of "natural causes".
LB> If he becomes the party's nominee
Nope. I took a peek at the advanced 'score-sheet.' Never happen.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: All
|Sub: MYTHS [fwd]
|Date: 16 Feb 96 17:44:39
EID:a954 20508d80
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 125085e2
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
These are recent ramblings in the Fastecho support conference.
* Forwarded (from: fe_help) by Ryan Shaw using timEd/2 1.10+.
* Originally from Clifton McGee (1:124/5029) to Ryan Shaw.
* Original dated: Wed Feb 14, 19:37
RS> David Isbell wrote in a message to Jane Kelley:
RS> DI> Please!! Jesus is in history books. His crucifixion is in history
RS> DI> books. At least believe in history.
RS> Did Jesus run Fastecho?
hehehe Probably.
-BAD_APPLE
-HARLOTS
+10_COMMANDMENTS
----
___ FE 1.45+ Man Whata RIDE
- Origin: Inner Circle BBs Ķ WaXaHacHie Tx Ķ (1:124/5029)
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: -------
|Date: 16 Feb 96 17:48:29
EID:0dbc 20508e00
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 125085e5
REPLY: 1:280/26 4e04d4a5
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Richard Morrison wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS> RM> I think the closest thing to a ship here is Sams Town Casino.
RS> RM> built on a boat frame in a fake wet dock on the Missouri River
RS> RM> I'm on shore duty...
RS>I'm very happy that our tax dollars are being spent to protect the
RS>coastline.
RM> Good... I'm glad you are happy... <
Are you dumb or just stupid?
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Goodbye old friend
|Date: 16 Feb 96 17:50:28
EID:a72f 20508e40
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 125085e7
REPLY: 1:157/200 50020d20
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS>In the meantime, practice civil disobedience and break the law as
RS>often as possible.
KDM> I'd disagree. Don't break the law just to break the law. Break
KDM> it just as often as you had before.
That didn't get Gandhi or MLK anywhere now did it.
---
* Origin: Werde der du bist. (1:152/67)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:01:01
EID:4e3b 204fa820
MSGID: 1:352/266 31240DA1
NS> they differentiate between them? In the passage cited, there is a
NS> listing of a lot of different flying things...if there was a word
NS> that just denoted flying things, then who put in all the extra
NS> names, etc.? I'm willing to bet a year off of Jim Staal's life
It seems that it would not be too difficult to resolve this question if
one went to the library, got a Hebrew translation with English available...
A Triaglot if possible and simply looked the passage in question up and
saw what Hebrew words were used for flying things.
I requested this echo some months ago, and have been patiently awaiting
debate. I have simply been dissappointed at how little effort is being placed
in writing or supporting most of the posts. I have seen people who claim
to be from religions based on love and peace resort to nothing short of
hate mongering and name calling.
Is this sort of an open flame echo without interest in scholarly
attempts?
I have a real interest in discussion of religions (regardless of type) but
don't want to waste time on meaningless posts.
Perhaps there is someone here who would like to explore such topics as the
development of religous thought from 3000 BCE to 2000 BCE? That would cover
approximately from Egyptian heiroglyphics, Chinese ideograms, the Indus
Valley texts, the cycle of Inanna, the Gilgamesh epos, an early version
of the I Ching, the Pyramid texts, the Coffin texts, and the Chinese classics.
I'm just beginning to build my own sacred texts resource library and would
love the chance to enjoy learning from posts on any or all of the above
topics.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: FSNS Goliath BBS
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:43:45
EID:3ce4 204fad60
MSGID: 1:352/266 31240DA3
FB> 4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM
FB> 4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
etc. How can I obtain all of these argumentation fomats. They are by the
way GREAT!
Thanks.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 352/266 600 138/380 146 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:28:54
EID:e39e 20509380
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 623f0c1d
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4D
MH> A whole host of scientists, actually, including some -- such as
MH> Davies -- who held no particular theistic belief as they
MH> discovered the intricate design of the universe.
Does Davies actually now claim there to be a god?
This is one scientist that understands much about the intricacies of the
universe down to the details of the molecular basis of life and still doesn't
believe in a god.
MH> I suspect this is like one of those Magic Eye pictures -- you
MH> either see it or you don't. (Although people who don't may
MH> yet, if they keep trying.)
I've never been able to see one of those either. :-)
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: evidence
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:32:25
EID:e39e 20509400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 623f13f9
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89214390
MH> The statements "Koresh is the Lamb of God" and "Jesus rose from
MH> the grave" can be compared to the statements "I am thinking
MH> of the number three" and "I have written the number three on
MH> this piece of paper."
This is your claim. For what reason do you claim it. I see them both as
worthless opinions while your analogy is a difference in facts.
Yet the utterers of the statements would argue with both of us as to whether
they were true or not.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: information
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:34:51
EID:aee9 20509440
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 623f1b78
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89214396
MH> Should there be hardcore pornography on broadcast television at
MH> 4 in the afternoon?
Harcore porn should be available to adults. there should be no censorship
of it other than to insure that all the participants are adults and no one
gets hurt.
Children, should not be allowed to watch porn. It is the responsibility
of the parents to see to this if they feel the need is there. I am in favor
of making electronic devices available but not mandatory in these cases.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: The fire
|Date: 16 Feb 96 19:06:21
EID:190d 205098c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 623f67d6
AS> Well, this is what I get for liking an echo called Holy
AS> SMOKE.... First off, I would like to thank Dave Worrell for
When I heard about this, I tried to think if I had an internet address for
you, but no. I thought that I would call your town's directory assistance
but realized that I didn't know what city you lived in.
Oh, well...as long as nothing was damaged that was important...except your
pride. :-)
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 16 Feb 96 19:42:51
EID:09ff 20509d40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 623fb6dc
MG>> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild
MG>> assed guess by some scientist?
AS> How many scientists do we need?
Only one....with evidence.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 15 Feb 96 12:36:58
EID:ad7a 204f6480
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312429b0
A ZEN STORY
by Camden Benares, The Count of Five
Headmaster, Camp Meeker Cabal
A serious young man found the conflicts of mid 20th Century America
confusing. He went to many people seeking a way of resolving within
himself the discords that troubled him, but he remained troubled. One
night in a coffee house, a self-ordained Zen Master said to him, "go to
the dilapidated mansion you will find at this address which I have
written down for you. Do not speak to those who live there; you must
remain silent until the moon rises tomorrow night. Go to the large room
on the right of the main hallway, sit in the lotus position on top of the
rubble in the northeast corner, face the corner, and meditate."
He did just as the Zen Master instructed. His meditation was
frequently interrupted by worries. He worried whether or not the resr of
the plumbing fixtures would fall from the second floor bathroom to join
the pipes and other trash he was sitting on. He worried how would he know
when the moon rose on the next night. He worried about what the people
who walked through the room said about him.
His worrying and meditation were disturbed when, as if in a test of
his faith, ordure fell from the second floor onto him. At that time two
people walked into the room. The first asked the second who the man was
sitting there was. The second replied "Some say he is a holy man. Others
say he is a shithead." Hearing this, the man was enlightened.
Reprinted from the holy book Principia Discordia. Who needs permission?
... Beware of Quantum ducks (Quark!Quark!Quark!)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: YHWH
|Date: 15 Feb 96 12:44:11
EID:3d14 204f6580
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312429b1
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8921DB4A
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Shelby Sherman <=-
SS> Please outline for me exactly how to relieve the suffering of the
SS> Ebola virus. Thanks.
MH> You could have made the same point about polio not much more than
MH> half a century ago. And yet people who cared enough to work at it
MH> managed to do that, didn't they?
MH> We already know enough about how Ebola is spread that we could keep
MH> anyone else from ever getting it, if our society as a whole cared
MH> enough to build modern sanitary medical facilities in African nations
MH> and staff them with nurses and doctors who knew what they were doing.
Mike, this would not necessarily work. Ebola is transmitted by
blood and body fluids, the same as HIV and hepatitis. While Ebola kills
quicker than the other two, what chance do you think you have by simply
making more "sanitary" hospitals over there? And how many do you really
think you are going to have to put up to even have a chance?
Besides, you have to change the culture with it...the main reason it
spread so far was the burial rituals of the culture of the people
involved necessitating certain burial rituals (which I do not know
details of) that allowed the transmission through the body fluids.
Try changing a culture lately?
Sue
... If you think you are confused, wait until I explain it.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: PERSECUTION CENTRAL
|Date: 15 Feb 96 13:44:00
EID:3a00 204f6d80
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 975aafd5
ML> Trying to curry favor?
JB> BZZZZZT! Herbs, not spices. Don't want to hear that chive.
ML> I shall type more gingerly next thyme.
SS> My most sage advice would be to put down that mace lest you
SS> tarragon. Judith would hate it if you tore her toga.
GR> Another alum of Pun U?
An employee of Puns 'R' We.
... A pun is its own reword.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
---
* KMail 3.10m Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 15 Feb 96 13:47:00
EID:a070 204f6de0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 2cd9fcad
SA> It would be interesting to learn how much Clinton has spent on
SA> his campaign thus far. He's already exhibited what the bottom
SA> 5% ethically can do. Tell me again how bad conservatives can
SA> be.
"Long before he went to the White House, the president was involved
in curious land deals. His first lady, a power behind the scenes,
insisted that a White House official be fired. A crucial document
mysteriously disappeared for years while frustrated investigators
fumed. You know the stories, but perhaps not the administration.
Those were the Reagan-Bush years.
It does not spare the Clintons misdeeds, should any that matter ever
be found, to note that the search of their lives has marooned them
on the short end of a whopping double standard.
Less than a month after Reagan was elected governor of California,
he sold 236 acres that a Los Angeles County assessment appeals board
said were worth less than half the $1.9 million Reagan was paid.
Eight years later, the buyer, 20th Century Fox, resold the land for
a fourth of the per-acre price it had paid Reagan. In the meantime,
lucky Reagan was able to buy a 688-acre mountain ranch for just $764
an acre, less than a tenth of the per-acre price of his first
purchase.
All this made Reagan a rich man, if not quite in the league of the
southern California moguls who had picked him to carry the
right-wing torch.
No congressional hearings were ever held.
The Reagan administration took a real hit in the Iran-Contra affair.
Two White House officials were convicted of serious charges and a
third got off on a technicality. Democrats got in their share of
cheap shots, but unlike Whitewater or the travel office blunder,
Iran-Contra involved the misuse of executive power to subvert proper
congressional authority and create secret and unconstitutional
foreign policy operations.
And George Bush's diary, first sought by the Iran-Contra special
prosecutor in 1987, wasn't produced until Bush's last month as
president in 1992 -- just before he pardoned key officials who might
be further implicated by it.
Bush and Reagan were never held to anything like the unforgiving
personal moral account the Clintons are suffering for far lesser
suspicions involving no misuse of executive power.
Neither, although there were hearings on Iran-Contra, were they
assigned an empowered tormenter like Sen. Alfonse D'Amato -- an
active ally of Clinton's most likely re-election opponent, Bob Dole,
and by acclamation the most ethically dubious member of the Senate.
Folk wisdom reminds us that "politics ain't beanbag." OK. But gang
warfare? --Tom Teepen, national correspondent of Cox Newspapers
You asked.
... You can fool too many people too much of the time. --James Thurber
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
---
* KMail 3.10m Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Re: countdown: one day le
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:15:03
EID:bce4 204fa1e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 501204bf
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ASMODEUS spoke thusly to J.J. HITT:
A>J> You have only ONE day left in order to destroy me with your
A>J> "magick" (on or before February 14th) in order to fulfill the
A>J> conditions of Curse Number Three.
A>J> So far, nothing has happened.
A>J> Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
A>
A>Get a life. I cant believe you waste your time writing to people who
A>almost entirely ignore you. I haven't been in this board's f-echo
A>system for days, and you're still writing me. as for the curse, you
A>have already witnessed its birth. Soon it will grow, like a plague.
A>Your anxiety and apprehension will only make it all the more
A>powerful. All I have done is stirred the hot ashes, you'll add the
A>wood.
Thanks. Money can't buy entertainment like this.
... Shut up, or I'll nail your other foot to the floor.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Frank Pierce
|Sub: Re: hello!
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:20:04
EID:de28 204fa280
MSGID: 1:157/200 501204d0
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
FRANK PIERCE spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
FP>David, at the risk of getting into an unwinnable debate between you
FP>and Ken, I'd venture I'd agree with you.
FP>
FP>I might well believe in the God of our bible if the text followed
FP>closely with our twentieth-century concepts of man's place in the
FP>Universe. I'd sit back, view the book with wonder, and tell myself
FP>that it had to be divinely inspired, for truly no group of writers
Do us all a favor and get an OLR. 300+ messages go through this
conference a day; if you don't quote, we won't know what you are talking
about. If you don't quote, you will be twitted, or worse.
... So who ELSE do I add to my list of total jerks?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Hit list
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:22:05
EID:060b 204fa2c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 501204e1
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JIM STAAL spoke thusly to GEORGE RUDZINSKI:
JS> -=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Tim Pauly <=-
JS>
JS> RTP>I go to worship the Lord, and to hopefully learn
JS> TP> something that will make me a better person in the process.
JS>
JS> GR> Try a library.
JS>
JS>It hasn't worked for you. Why do you recommend it to someone else?
THis was, what, a week? 2?
... "I'll be Bach!" - Johann Sebastian Schwarzenneger
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Many gods
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:35:06
EID:2d26 204fa460
MSGID: 1:157/200 501204f2
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
BRAD JACKSON spoke thusly to FREDRIC RICE:
BJ>FR>That's because you're ignorant and a superstitious fool incapable
BJ>FR>of reason. Since there is no evidence for the existance of any
BJ>FR>deities, the lack of belief in deities signifys reason.
BJ>
BJ>Fredric Fredric Fredric!
BJ> How can you say that I am superstitious? I am not afraid to
BJ>walk under a later or cross the path of a black cat.
The word is ladder.
BJ> You say I have a lack of evidence to back up that there is
BJ>only one God. I have a book with around 1400 pages full of evidence.
Hmmmm . . . then I have at least 2000+ pages of evidence that says that
Lazarus Long, Michael Valentine Smith, Jubal Harshaw, Mycroft Holmes,
and Juan Rico exist. Where are they? I've got another 1500+ plus pages
saying that the nation of Valdemar exists. Where is it? I've got 1000+
pages saying that elves exist. I haven't seen anyone with pointy ears
lately.
BJ>People like yourself must be kidding me, when you say you don't
BJ>believe in Jesus?
Jesus. Yes, I think a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago. I don't
believe he was a god, though.
... Agent Provocateur Extraordinaire
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our daily bread
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:39:07
EID:4adc 204fa4e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 50120503
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
GEORGE MOOTH spoke thusly to ALL :
GM> February 14 Wednesday
GM>
GM> SIGNS OF LOVE
GM>
GM> Read: John 14:15-24
GM>
GM> If you love Me, keep my commandments.
GM> -John 14:15
Good. Then leave. If all you're going to do is post screeds, we don't
need you here.
... Surly to bed, and surly to rise.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:41:08
EID:5abc 204fa520
MSGID: 1:157/200 50120514
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JOHN PREWETT spoke thusly to DAVID HILLING:
JP> Would you believe there are people
JP> so dumb they think God is dead.
JP> In spite of evidence.
You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
JP> Some admit God is alive, but are
JP> so dumb they think Jesus is dead.
JP> In spite of evidence.
You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
JP> Some admit Jesus is alive, but are
JP> so dumb they think a man in Rome is His "vicar."
JP> In spite of evidence.
You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
JP> Some admit Jesus is alive, and see that
JP> the so-called "vicar" in Rome is a phoney,
JP> but are so dumb they don't think it matters.
JP> In spite of evidence.
You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
... What this world needs is a damn good plague.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 16 Feb 96 17:32:09
EID:1ea6 20508c00
MSGID: 1:157/200 50120525
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MARILYN BURGE spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MB>On (11 Feb 96) Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote to Preston Simpson...
MB>PS> KDM> Makes sense to me. I'd prefer intelligence over looks any
MB>PS> KDM> day, though.
MB> KD> PS>
MB> KD> PS>You and me both, but how many like-minded others of the
MB> KD> opposite sex PS>do you think there are out there?
MB>
MB> KD> Few, very few. And all the intelligent ones seem to date scum.
MB>
MB>If they are dating scum, they aren't very intelligent. OK, let me rephrase that -- all the decent ones date scum or are
lesbian. Admittedly, my views have been warped a bit by ASMS which made
for some rather strange experiences.
MB>But, seriously, folks. . . . I think part of the answer to that
MB>is that we make our intelligent girls feel like dirt BECAUSE they
MB>are intelligent. I know in my own case, I was told repeatedly
MB>that I'd "never get a decent man" if I didn't let them win. I
MB>remember replying "when I grow up, I want a MAN, not somebody
MB>I have to nurse along to keep from bruising his poor, delicate
MB>ego." At that point, one parent would give the other one of those
MB>knowing looks that says "she's young yet; she'll learn."
That's a remarkably stupid attitude, IMO. If/when I get married, I want
to marry a friend, an equal, not a puppet.
MB>I'm not sure what it was exactly that I was supposed to learn,
MB>but I don't think I ever did. I held out for a guy who likes
MB>intelligent women instead of learning this lesson of dubious
MB>value to all but the learning impaired.
I'm glad you didn't. There are some remarkably evil males out there.
MB>But so long as we continue to teach our girls that intelligence
MB>isn't a valued asset, we'll continue to have young women in our
MB>culture who date scumbags because they don't feel on the primal
MB>level like they are worthy of anyone else.
And I know one, unfortunately, and I'm worried sick about her.
... Age is not a barrier to achievement.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: churches
|Date: 16 Feb 96 17:36:10
EID:3e87 20508c80
MSGID: 1:157/200 50120536
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> KDM> Much less, definitely. Now that I think about it, almost none
PS> KDM> of my friends have valued intelligence over beauty, at least in
PS> KDM> potential mates.
PS>
PS>Oh, well. I've already told you my theory about St. Valentine's day
PS>being a plan to kill us off.
I'm still trying to figure out something to do in honor of Valentine's
Day . . . snapping and sniping, for example.
... Dreaming permits us to go insane every night . . .
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Coincidence seven
|Date: 16 Feb 96 17:51:11
EID:aa77 20508e60
MSGID: 1:157/200 50120547
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> PS>Could do it the way a conventional light sail does. Stars put out
PS> PS>lots of infrared. Or one might mount a nuclear reactor aboard the
PS> PS>ship (Well shielded, of course).
PS>
PS> KDM> Yeah, but at that distance?
PS>
PS> Dunno. Don't look at me anyway--I'm not an engineering type.
But I will be, someday. With work, luck, and the Grace of Goat
I'll be designing these things in ten years or less.
I'm currently reading a book you may be interested in: _Prospects for
Interstellar Travel_, by J.H. Mauldin. Your library should have a copy.
... "Skip to the end!" - Prince Humperdink
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Drew Webber
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:45:00
EID:4a04 20506da0
MSGID: 1:272/60 0010d4b9
While getting nailed over the head by Sakura, Sue Armstrong said to Marilyn
Burge...
SA> much worse experiences there than in Detroit (but then, I've never
SA> actually _lived_ in Detroit.)
SA> Of course, I've never been to New York City, either, but I've
SA> heard stories ..
They're all true. In the past 10 years or so the town I live in, which is
about 60 miles NW of NYC, has seen a huge influx of people from "the city".
And almost everyone of them is an asshole.
... "He dreamed a god up, and called it Christianity." - NIN
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 5
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 16 Feb 96 03:33:06
EID:a6c6 20501c20
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3123fb14
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 312238f7
14 Feb 96 13:34, Don Martin wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> in a dark corner with an extra pair of shapely legs coming out
DW>> the bottom of his robes. I saw the Pope getting a blowjob. :)
DM> Rather beats the hell out of seeing Mommie Kissing Santa
DM> Claus, doesn't it?
Yeah, but it isn't quite as nice as trading places with the Pope would have
been...
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: FIDO FOLLIES
|Date: 16 Feb 96 03:36:10
EID:c80f 20501c80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3123fbc5
13 Feb 96 08:01, AL SCHROEDER wrote to DAVID WORRELL:
DW>> I'm right up the damn street from him, and I have to carry on
DW>> conversations with the snippets I see quoted in other people's
DW>> messages.
AS> Wonderful. I'll be glad when (A) Fido starts working again up to
AS> snuff
Whaddya mean *again*?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Home page (you care, I know you do).
|Date: 16 Feb 96 03:33:48
EID:39ee 20501c20
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3123fb8c
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3122a72b
14 Feb 96 22:23, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> I liked your vital stats page, but your mailto link appears to be
DW>> fucked.
PS> I fixed it the day after I made the mailto link. Should work now.
DW>> I'd like a link, if you don't mind.
DW>> http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~diogenes/
PS> Sure thing. It should be there by 14 February.
Great. My whole *page* is fucked, now. The background image (a modest one)
appears fine when the html is viewed locally. As soon as I upload the page
and image to the server though, the background is suddenly invisible.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: SPONG ON THE CREEDS 2
|Date: 16 Feb 96 03:36:41
EID:ccb2 20501c80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3123fdc0
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31226b42
13 Feb 96 12:04, Sue Armstrong wrote to David Worrell:
DW>>>> Once again, you're making invalid assumptions.
DW>> Remember the above part, ok?
SA> The whole thing is based on two assumptions, anyway - 1)
SA> that aliens with interstellar technology exist
A reasonable assumption, given the age and size of the universe.
SA> and 2) that their
SA> ways would be in ANY way recognisable and comprehendable to us.
And that was the invalid assumption that both you and Al made.
SA> a decrease in religious fervour [save a few rampant fundies]. An
SA> alien species might never even invent gods in the first place.
Or they might have 5 billion of the pesky little buggers running around
underfoot. Either assumption is equally invalid without evidence.
DW>> Now you're being overly idealistic. Replicators require energy.
DW>> Replicators would not automatically usher in some wonderful era
DW>> of perfect socialism. Instead of buying things, you'd be buying
DW>> the energy to *make* things.
SA> I suppose it would depend on what sort of energy they had.
What other sorts are there? Energy is energy.
SA> If it
SA> were nuclear fusion or fission, the materials could be
SA> replicated
SA> once replicators were invented, and waste materials recycled in
SA> the thing (assuming of course it would have the capabilities not
SA> only to make things from the atom up, but to take garbage items
SA> and deconstruct them into atoms to be used later.
Does the acronym TANSTAAFL mean anything to you, Sue? Anything at all? How
'bout the laws of thermodynamics?
DW>> "Imagine" was a dream. A *nice* dream, certainly, but still a
DW>> dream. It is a dream that will never come to pass as long as
DW>> humans remain recognizably human, though.
SA> Who was talking about humans? I was thinking of _aliens_,
While the details of an alien evolutionary tree would differ from ours,
the underlying concepts would remain the same. These hypothetical aliens
evolved from lesser creatures just as we did, and thus would have similar
evolutionary baggage to carry around with them.
SA> any event. I think we've been quite lucky the past 50 years, in
SA> that no one has actually been stupid enough to start a nuclear
SA> war, considering that in the past, new weapons were used quite
SA> fervently and at the first opportunity
Faulty analogy - no weapon in the past had the potential to destroy all
human life. You simply cannot make comparisons between nuclear and conventional
weapons.
---
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Re: One God
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:15:51
EID:4032 204fa1e0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hi Don.
You are very good with words, to be sure. But all the knowledge
of the language in the world will not get you any closer to God,
(JESUS CHRIST). I am not saying that you can not get any closer to
God, but I don't think he will be inpressed with the way you speak.
If you are reading this message you still have time to find
Jesus the one and only God. I pray the beast will not deceive you
any longer. Pick up your bible (KJV) read and then pray to our Lord
Jesus Christ. Find a church in your area and follow Acts 2:38.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you
in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other
name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I don't (assume) that you know anything about our Lord. If you would
like to learn more and need help finding a church in your area,
Please call my bbs.
Sharing the Word (905) 575-8985 Hamilton, Ontario Canada.
Brad
... Is your church Acts 2:38 approved?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:15:51
EID:2187 204fa1e0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Brad Jackson <=-
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson to Preston Simpson <=-
PS>This is circular at best, Brad. Do you enjoy being dizzy?
BJ> Hello again Preston.
BJ> This may help Preston. What evidence do you have that the bible
BJ> is false and not the word of God?
GR> No global flood.
BJ> You see I have the bible and God to back up what I have said. I have
BJ> only quoted what was in his book, I didn't make any of this up.
GR> Mark 16:15-18. Neither did I. Shall I pour?
HI George.
What do you find offencive about Mark 16:15-18?
Mark 16:15-18
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature. {16} He that believeth and is baptized
shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. {17} And
these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; {18} They shall
take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not
hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Are you upset because of Mark 16:16? Because if you are you can
still be saved!
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you
in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I hope this helped you out George.
Brad
... Sharing the Word BBS (Hamilton, Ont.) (905) 575-8985 Acts<2:38 & 4:12>
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: One God not three
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:15:52
EID:ae03 204fa1e0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Brad Jackson <=-
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson to Kerry Renaissance <=-
KR> By the way, since you are promoting the Christian deity, as put
KR>forth in the Bible, the Bible does not qualify as independent
KR>evidence. It is a circular argument, which is invalid. Can you
KR>come up with another source, or is that the only book you own?
BJ> Hi Kerry.
BJ> Kerry, can you prove to me this book I am reading called the
BJ> bible is wrong? I tell you the truth as I know it, that the bible is
BJ> true. Many people have tried to prove other wise, but couldn't.
GR> Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour. Belly up to the bar fundoid, it's
GR> SHOWTIME!
GR> If you
BJ> would only take the time to read God's word, I am sure you would have
BJ> a different point of view about it.
GR> I'll be waiting to see you squirm your way into a different point of
GR> view to save your ass.
Hi George.
This is the second message I got from you today on Mark
16:15-18.
Mark 16:15-18
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature. {16} He that believeth and is baptized
shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. {17} And
these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; {18} They shall
take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not
hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
This is kind of what I am trying to do, help people with the Gospel.
If there is something you don't like in this great scripture, give
me a call and we can chat about it.
Brad
... Sharing the Word BBS (Hamilton, Ont.) (905) 575-8985 Acts<2:38 & 4:12>
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: 1 god
|Date: 15 Feb 96 20:15:53
EID:0e52 204fa1e0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hi George.
This is your four message to me today, and now you are resorting
to name calling. I was wondering how long it would take? You are
frustrated because the beast has you dancing in circles, because he
has blinded you.
You say you have felt the power of God once? If this is the
case get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness.
Matthew 7:7
Ask , and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; [knock],
and it shall be opened unto you: Matthew 7:8
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth;
and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
George don't be fooled! Satan is laughing with you all the way to
Hell.
Brad
... In God I trust!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Simon Ewins
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 16 Feb 96 07:41:17
EID:9620 20503d20
PID: FleetStreet 1.14 #115
MSGID: 1:250/666 3124351d
CHRS: IBMPC 2
BJ> take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not
BJ> hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
BJ> This is kind of what I am trying to do, help people with the Gospel.
BJ> If there is something you don't like in this great scripture, give me
BJ> a call and we can chat about it.
Are you willing to 'drink any deadly thing'? Your bible says that it 'shall
not hurt' you. Do you actually believe that? Would you drink a glass of
Drano? How strong is your faith? If you are willing to drink it please post
a time and a place where you are going to do this so that I can witness
it and bring a team of paramedics to save your sorry ass when your imaginary
god-thing fails you.
Take care,
Simon
wiz@axaxa.com
http://www.axaxa.com/axaxa
cserve:70543,2540
... Inåo–s Xpiåē•v: •kvep¢v kai vīkpo.
02/16/96 MAC: EXr+G#lzDYtaE+o#L@ta
---
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:4099 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 87c500a0
DC>-> On 02-07-96 13:48, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC>Hope you eventually find it... Sounds like it was a family heirloom.
DC> KW> No, it was a gift from Bear.
DC>Same thin, or at least will be!
Yes. Ah, well. He's since replaced it, with a Pelikan. That
one will stay in my desk, and the Purse Goddess isn't going to get a
crack at it.
DC> KW> rather severe arthritis in my hands, and the large barrel size makes
DC> KW> them easier to hold. It will probably turn up, I do remember putting
DC>Must make typing rather hard. I just hate little pens as they
DC>don't fit well in my hand. Besides, my writing is bad enough
DC>with a reasonably sized pen!
Typing can be rough, esp. on my wrists. If my hands get to bad, I make
bread. Working the warm dough will usually limber them back up. The
real problem I have is in strength. But, as I will not give up my
needlework, and the other things that I do with my hands, I do work to
keep them flexible. Objectively, though, I do not have pretty, dainty
little hands.
You sound like Bear. He gets these little thingies that he slips over
the barrel of his pens to improve his grip.
DC> KW> keep a couple of cheap Parkers in there to loan). Things disappear
and
DC> KW> reappear regularly around here.
DC>Ask my daughter... She can find anything!
Or mine! She can lose anything.
DC> DC> DC>Well, I have a pair of red and green and another mis-matched
pair
DC> DC> KW> If I wanted to make some psychotic sock animals.
DC> DC>Well, it was the Yule season, so I figured that the choice of
DC> DC>colors would give you a grin!
DC> KW> Oh, and here I was picturing you in nothing but psychotic socks.
DC> Besides, Jimbo never sent me a pair. You'll have to ask
DC>him for a True Set of Socks...
Humph! Jimbo's idea a real True Socks is a pair if tube socks with the
Playboy logo knit into the cuffs. He already has the psychotic part
done pat.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Ain't that enough to light the fire under yer cauldron!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Southern Men
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:9158 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 467b179b
DW> DW>> 'Zactly. You don't realize that's a compliment, do you? ;)
DW> KW> You're *so* smart .
DW>Stop that. Yer gonna get me excited again.... ;)
Now, that doesn't seem hard to do.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Air I am! Fire I am! Water, Earth, and Spirit I am!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Swap 'em
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:f55f 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 643b906d
JB>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> JB> KW> It must be 'tic', then. Are you twitching, you mealy mouthed
JB> JB> KW> poltroon?
JB> JB>In that case, wouldn't 'Tic-Tac' be a better choice?
JB> KW> Artificially sweet. You have a point, Judith.
JB>Actually, I was thinking more that a mealy-mouthed poltroon might need
a
JB>breath freshener.
Considering the way he goes around chewing on his own ass, you most
definitely have a point.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:d0bf 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e8ffa8ec
JB>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> KW> That reminds me of the urban legend about the society hostess that
JB> KW> served cat food on crackers for an hors d'oeuvre.
JB>Might be an urban legend, but in my much younger and poorer days, I once
JB>made stew from Alpo beef chunks. I hadn't had any meat in almost a month
JB>and that was all I could afford. Actually, it wasn't bad. Of course,
I
JB>DID know what I was eating.
When my daughter was teething, she would raid the dog biscuits at her
grandmother's house. I think that if I was ever that meat hungry, I
would follow your example. But not cat food, that stuff stinks.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * All taglines are busy... One will be with you shortly.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A Visit 4/4
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:9247 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6ad91132
JB>-=> Quoting Don Martin to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> DM> pouring slip! Surely a scrotum with alligator clips and
JB> DM> wires is not too tough to mold--what with the weekend (and
JB>Well, making the mold wouldn't be hard. But you do realize what temperatures
JB>curing plaster reach, don't you? Maybe I should save that for someone
I
JB>DON'T like.
Judith, you may have finally found a use for Jim Staal. Did your
customer want miniatures?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * All we are is dust in the wind--Kansas
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:35dd 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c7c16fd5
JB>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Robert Jackson <=-
JB> KW> hate is the lancet in a fingertip that they use to draw a sample
JB> KW> before they take your donation.
JB>Yesssssss! And the technician who knows how to do it just 'so'...so that
JB>it hurts for 3 days afterward. Or misses and jabs you right under the
JB>fingernail.
I remember the old days before they had the spring loaded lancette
holders. There were a few times when I thought the tech had
managed to lodge the damn thing in the bone.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * And on the 8th day God said, "Ok, Murphy, take over...."
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Why
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:a52e 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f756c039
JJH> There were a couple of 19th century cases in England where a woman
JH> was initiated, passed and raised as a Master Mason without there
JH> being any fuss made until years afterwards. Usually the woman was
JH> a member of the aristocracy or otherwise a person of influence and
JH> substance.
Yes, The Honorable Mrs Aldsworth (in Ireland), Mrs Beaton, and Madam de
Xaintrailles (the wife of a French general, she was known for wearing
men's clothing).
JH> Just how the rituals were performed is left to the imagination, but
JH> I suspect it was a case of "Tits?
JH> Tits? What tits? I don't see no tits. Do you see any tits?"
J.J., or they mutually agreed that the baring of the left breast was not
necessary, as there was no dispute that the person being initiated had
tits.
JH> KW> The hats were bad enough, but watching all the old men
JH> KW> tripping over, walloping each other with, and sitting on
JH> KW> their swords almost made sitting through an open ritual at
JH> KW> the Commandrie worth it.
JH> One of these days I'm going to have to make a point of witnessing
JH> a Masonic funeral.
Oh, the funeral isn't much to see. Just a lot on men in aprons standing
around mumbling at each other. The really funny one is a Knights
Templar instillation.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Anything you say will be misquoted & used agaisnt you.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:1e0a 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3526cc0f
JH> We have it here too. And Fiesta de Patrias (sp?) in September.
JH> And just about every day named after a Catholic saint other
JH> than Patrick.
I do get somewhat annoyed that the Mexican independence day
(one of them, at least) is a bigger holiday than the Forth of July here.
JH> KW> On the other hand, I hate country music.
JH> Only thing I hate more is Rap and the other varients that pass for
JH> "black" music nowadays. There is a great African American musical
JH> heritage that ranges from Jazz to Gospel to R&B to MoTown/Soul. Why
JH> so many have turned their backs on that to listen to cRap totally
JH> escapes me.
Sheer defiance, as far as I can tell. Five years ago I was hoping that
the popularization of Rap would kill it. No such luck . I don't
even turn on the radio anymore.
JH> Since the popular music industry always turns in the direction I
JH> dread the most, I know it's only a matter of time before someone
JH> records a Rap version of "Yer Cheatin' Heart".
J.J., what a horrid imagination you have.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * At such times, the wise cat retires to meditate.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Blanche Nonken
|Sub: I'm back
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:632b 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6f2faea3
BN> LB> KW> We'll have to do this outside. All those handfuls of chocolate
chips
BN> LB> KW> broadcast make a real mess in the carpeting. And I will need
four
BN> LB> KW> volunteers to call the quarters (they get to eat the offerings).
BN> LB>ME!!!! ME!!!!!!!! ME!!!!!!!!!
BN> KW> No, no, no, Lynda. You're with the christians *outside* the circle,
BN> KW> remember. The chocolate is inside the circle with the heathens.
Or
BN> KW> do you want to (temporarily) change sides?
BN> LB> LB>And I absolutely INSIST that Judith hold a mini-revival.
BN> LB> KW> Lynda, that's brilliant. That would pay for the whole thing.
BN> LB>HAH! Gee, maybe we can get her to stage one BEFOREHAND, to pay our
way.
BN> LB>She can say it's to "send missionaries into the field"!
BN> KW> Well, Judith?
BN>Hey, what about me? I don't do much, but I can make some nifty treats:
BN>Chocolate covered potato chips. Chocolate covered candied ginger. Chocolate
BN>rum balls (also sans rum, for those who must avoid alcohol). The Great
BN>Chocolate Goo Cake.
Chocolate Goo Cake? Now this sounds interesting. The ritual calls for
white chocolate, chocolate fondue, milk chocolate, and bitter chocolate
for the quarters, Chocolate chips to cast the circle, and chocolate
figures, Godiva's Liquor, and oreos for the altar. But I for one
would be perfectly happy to substitute a Goo Cake for the oreos. ;) Or
we could have a bake sale for 'love offerings' out side of Judith's
tent.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Avalon is rising, to fall no more
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:630f 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1d63606e
JB>-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to David Worrell <=-
JB> RS> the Republican in the race -- Gordon Smith, a devout Mormon.
JB>After seeing what just happened, I wonder what Styx will say to the
JB>following 2 words?
JB> PAT BUCHANAN
Especially now that Gramm has retreated to TX with his microscopic tail
between his legs. Well, we're going to have to put up with Gramm
pretending to mean what he says for the next several months, but at
least the rest of the nation will be free of it.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Back to the river, Back to the sea.....
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jose Gomez
|Sub: Re: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:8552 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e80e630a
Check periodically to see if fermentation is finished, this will take
about ten days to two weeks. Fermentation is finished when the
mead is no longer bubbling, and has begun to clear. Yes, it will
look absolutely evil there for a while, don't worry, it is supposed
to.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: The Raven
|Sub: flood
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:9e8f 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 165943e5
TR> AM> No, your wrong there, study other cultures that reject the
TR> AM> Christian-Judeo ethic and see how well the women are treated. Asain
TR> AM> and Arab cultures treat women as dogs.
TR> "Reject"? They haven't "rejected" anything. They've stayed true
to
TR>their own culture. IN any case, its not universal: the Lakota Sioux
view
TR>women as exact equals, in social terms, as do the Seminole. It is accepted
TR>that there are things that men do better than women and vice versa (examples:
TR>fighting in the case of men, negotiating in the case of women), but the
TR>differences do not give rise to thoughts of superiority because of them.
Andrew is apparently not aware that the Islam culture is another of the
Abrahamic faiths.
Your comments concerning the role of women in your culture reminds me of
my fathers comments on the subject of women in combat roles in the
military. He was apposed to women serving in combat positions to the
end of his life. Not because of any perception that women were weak,
or that they would distract well disciplined troops, or even the danger
of rape. Daddy's objections were based on what he had seen working with
the resistance in Italy and France during WWII. He flatly stated that
women were unsuited to combat duty because they wouldn't blindly take
orders, they had to have a good reason to fight (God and Country, Rah
Rah Rah rarely did it) and if you did get a group of women mad enough to
fight what they did to the standard conventions of warfare would turn
any normal man's stomach. When I asked him to explain that last remark
he looked at me sourly and said, "You have an imagination. So did they.
They used it."
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Bacteria is the only culture some people will ever have.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: WHITE-LIGHTER RELIGIO
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:9f25 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c6e9cdf9
JH> KW> Based on my experience, over 70% of the Wiccans that I
JH> KW> have met were over 30 years old. A good 15% or so were
JH> KW> older than 45. One was a man in his 60's.
JH> JH> And your sample represents how large a portion of the total
JH> JH> of all Wiccans put together?
JH> KW> I have no idea, and nether does anyone else.
JH> Thank you.
J.J., dear, no one even knows how many Wiccans of what ever age there
are.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * BANISH THE DEMON JEHOVAH!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: I'M BACK
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:f462 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 10b177bd
JH> KW> Lately it has been easier--I must be beginning to develop Crone
JH> KW> power.
JH> Ahhh... this looks like a claim.
JH> What is "Crone power"?
Mean old woman power. When you are old enough that you don't
have anyone expecting you to be 'cute' or 'sexy' and you can be just as
unpleasant as you find it necessary to be, that is Crone Power.
JH> And can you use it to power street lights and run commuter
JH> trains without polluting the atmosphere or contributing
JH> to Global Menopause?
Only in so for as the immortal weapons of difficult old women will let
you. You can make things unbearable for individuals responsible until
you get your way (What! That old bitch is out there again!! And my
mother is with her...!!!)
JH> Scotty voice (whispering in awe): "Captian, they're using Crone
JH> technology."
Scotty probably knew all too well the power that Crones can wield. Old
black southern women (a respectful bow) have it down to an art. Jewish
grandmothers know it's secrets. Italian women use it well. Irish
and Scots women look forward to assuming the mantle of Power. The
grace and skill with which elderly Japanese women rule their men is
legend. Part of the secret of the Power is knowing when and who to get
nasty with. Go to the top, and be public. Even the Wet Lizard had
better be nice to the fragile little old lady in view of the cameras.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * BECAUSE!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: An interesting situation
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:109a 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 46b593e6
JH> JB> In fact, almost anything in a spray can that gives
JH> JB> instruction to 'keep out of eyes' can be effective on an
JH> JB> attacker. And if you can get it in a grocery store or
JH> JB> pharmacy, should give you no legal problems.
JH> Unfortunately, they don't make oven cleaner in tiny purse and
JH> pocket sized cans.
Cologne works great. And if you are real lucky, you can blind the
bastard. The cheaper the scent the better--the higher the ratio of
Isopropyl alcohol to volatile oils.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Being born again increases the chances of birth defects.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:626e 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a935d142
JH> KW> If you and Styx want Gramm, you can most certainly have
JH> KW> him. Texas has outdone herself with sleazy politicians
JH> KW> lately, what with him and the Bushs. But, I don't think that
JH> KW> you'd want him long if you got him.
JH> Hell, even Louisiana didn't want him.
JH> What Gramm is incapable of realizing is that the rest of the nation
JH> is not going to politely ignore his hypocracy the way Texans so
JH> often do with their elected officials. Gramm was one of the first
JH> and loudest voices to call Clinton a "draft dodger", and yet Gramm
JH> himself was somehow too busy to actually serve himself. As was
JH> Gingrich, Limbaugh and most of the other conservatives who
JH> "supported" the war from behind the safety of a deferment.
Well, Gramm has just become an also ran for the rest of the nation.
We'll still have to put up with him trying to revitalize his senatorial
campaign. :\
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Bigot? Racist? Fundy? Hate women? The GOP wants you!!!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:5445 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1fcc80cc
AM> SA> But he sends people to hell for not worshipping him on blind faith?
AM> No, they condemn themselves for rejecting Christ who made away for
us.
AM> I don't believe on the basis of 'blind faith'.
Your god sounds like a mentally ill stalker.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Body born of earth and water, spirit of fire and wind.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: The Unofficial Holysmoke
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:0d84 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org dc56d2a7
RS>Please send in your entries!
RS> The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List
In case it didn't go through the first time. :)
RS>The Late J.J. Hitt Death Spell Test Site Sugar-laden teeth rotting
Cola
RS>Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes' White Zinfandel
RS>Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
RS>Steve Quarrella Atheist Creemore Ale or any decent
porter
RS>John Prewett Sister Lover/Bitch the blood of Christ
Katherine Wintersnight Witch good coffee w\c&s
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Books are the sunshine of the mind
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Many Gods
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:da26 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 45e2a213
NS>\_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS>/ |||| |||
NS>Fredric Rice > Brad Jackson : Many Gods
NS> bj> Maybe I should not have said that I feel sorry for you,
NS> bj> because it is your chose not to believe in Jesus.
NS> FR> And I'm sure that Wiccans pity you for not believing in the Goddess.
NS> Although I don't speak for all Wiccans, I just wanted to say that
NS> most of us don't pity him for not believing in a Goddess. As a
NS> matter of fact, a lot of us feel really positive about his lack of
NS> faith there...};)
So mote it be.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Magick is Alive, and the Goddess is Underfoot!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: I'M BACK
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:4392 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 77fa5d5c
JB>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to David Worrell <=-
JB> KW> to do something french. A real buttercream, perhaps? And if I
have to
JB> KW> cook without shoes, you can stand there and wash dishes barefooted.
JB>How about a buttercream filling for a puff pastry? (One of my specialties)
JB>That should keep him busy scraping the marble slab in between turnings
and
JB>rollings as I usually take 5 days with it.
Yummy. Or I could ask him to beat the eggs into choux. You can't use a
mixer, it just doesn't come out tender. Speaking of puff pastry, have
you ever tried Child's fast puff? It isn't quite as wonderful as the
real thing, but, Lady, is it fast and easy! I can turn out a
batch in an afternoon. Napoleons with pastry cream and raspberries in
summer, iced with dark chocolate!
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * May gold, jewels, and silver never mean a thing to you!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: All
|Sub: George Mooth
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:e106 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 8976fc12
GM> February 11 Sunday
GM> FINDING NEW HOPE
GM> Read: 1 Kings 19:1-18
Is this the same asshole that used to post endless streams of biblical
diarrhea?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Braise the Lord! 325 degrees for a hour, add veggies.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: haggis vs. food
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:9546 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b6474380
MH>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> MH> According to Monty Python's Big Red Book, "The Scottish people consider
MH> MH> haggis not only a delicacy, but actually fit for human consumption."
MH> KW> Well, you *can* eat it. But this Scot would have to be pretty hungry
MH> KW> now that I'm old enough not to be bullied over it. As for Scots
MH> KW> delicacies, ever had stoved potatoes? Or venison mincemeat?
MH> Can't say as I have. Are they good?
Yes.
Although to do stoved potatoes right, you need clean sea water.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * C:\DOS; C:\DOS\RUN; \RUN\DOS\RUN
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:d228 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f13e694d
MH> MH> I heard Gramm speak a few weeks ago when the Southern Republican
MH> MH> Leadership Conference was held here. I was impressed.
MH> KW> If you and Styx want Gramm, you can most certainly have him. Texas
MH> KW> has outdone herself with sleazy politicians lately, what with him
and
MH> KW> the Bushs. But, I don't think that you'd want him long if you got
him.
MH> I don't especially want Gramm; I just disliked him less in person than
MH> I thought I would. The problem with the election this year is that
MH> there is nobody that I DO want among the candidates. I voted for
MH> Clinton in 92 and have been tremendously disappointed, so there's no
MH> way I can vote for him again. But among the R's, Dole is a windsock,
MH> blowing whichever way he thinks the voters want him to, and I can't
MH> vote for someone like that. Gramm and Forbes are both too focused on
MH> the economy, which is important but not the sole issue for the
MH> President to face. And none of the other Republicans seem to have a
MH> chance of winning. (Not that there are any among the also-rans that
I
MH> really like either.)
Well, Gramm is out of your hair, at least. I got a bitter laugh out of
the nerve it took for him to make that comment about 'listening to the
voters'. Clinton still looks like the best bet, to me. I have to much
self respect to vote for any of the republicans. Hell, the last time I
voted for a repulican't was when Ford ran. And there I plead youth and
idealism (clutching my brand new voters registration). The GOP platform
of greed and fear literally nauseates me.
MH> Makes me want to move to Toronto or Grandville or some other foreign
MH> place.
I've lived other places, Mike. As screwy as the USA is, so far I will
bide here. Although the GOP sometimes puts me strongly in mind of late
20's Germany.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Cat philosophy: When in doubt, cop an attitude.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:ef26 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a61dc649
MH>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KW> Mike, they didn't invent the supernatural happenings. They borrowed
MH> KW> them from other beliefs then existent. There is very little original
MH> KW> in the Christ myth cycle.
MH> Regardless. There's simply not enough time for them to ascribe
MH> miraculous events -- whatever the source -- and have them believed.
Mike, a few hours and a bit of patriotic wishful thinking is all that is
necessary to get stories going. Add five years and you have a legend.
Mix in a 'Donation of Constantine', and you have xtianity.
MH> From the perspective of the very first hearers, the evangelists
MH> weren't saying these things about someone who lived a century ago
MH> thousands of miles away, but less than a decade ago right here. And
the
MH> others involved -- Peter, John, James, etc. -- should still be alive
MH> and right here in Jerusalem. Kind of hard to claim the disciples were
MH> fictional characters, in light of that fact.
Ever check out the various legends surrounding Bonnie Charlie? And some
of those people were my direct ancestors. Sorry, Mike, no brass ring.
Haven't you ever heard old solders talk? The eye witnesses are the ones
who are the absolute worst about embellishing.
MH> MH> Furthermore, scholars have dated the composition of the three synoptic
MH> MH> gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) within a range of a.d. 40 to a.d.
80
MH> MH> or so, with liberal scholars opting for later dates and conservative
MH> MH> scholars opting for earlier ones, in most cases. John's gospel is
MH> MH> variously dated anywhere from a.d. 60 to a.d. 100.
MH> KW> This sounds more like half a century than the figure of 10-12 years
MH> KW> that you gave me above. A half a century is plenty of time for
a
MH> KW> legend to get started, especially if you have vigorous proselytizers
MH> KW> pushing it.
MH> Did you miss something? My first point dealt with Paul's letters. The
MH> earliest of those were written within 10-12 years of Jesus's death.
And
MH> since they were written to established communities of believers,
MH> obviously the beliefs must have existed for some time prior to the
MH> letters being written.
MH> The letters of Paul portray a Jesus who is very much miraculous, in
MH> that he rose from the grave and was God in human flesh. There's no
MH> evidence of the development of legend.
Friend of a friend.
MH> MH> Even at the latest dates, though, a maximum of fifty years passes
MH> MH> between Jesus's death and the completion of all three synoptic
MH> MH> gospels. Because the gospels were first used by existing faith
MH> MH> communities, the material in them must be older than the final
MH> MH> written versions.
MH> KW> Oh, yes. Probably most of the material in them pre dates the alleged
MH> KW> birth of the Christ.
MH> Can you support that claim with some actual evidence? I'm giving you
MH> dates and specifics, and you're countering with vague claims.
Mike, most of the 'miracles' ascribed to Jesus are copied from older
myth structures. Compare his death and resurrection with that of the
Mythric cycle. Jesus was simply another Corn King. Re-writing the
legend to fit the gospels just isn't that impressive.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Censorship: the right wing aesthetic.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: maria russell
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:63af 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6ad63c20
MH>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KW> Mike, do you have any idea of how often abuse is presented as an
act
MH> KW> of love? Especially the more subtle forms of abuse? "If I didn't
love
MH> KW> you so much, you couldn't make me so mad." "I love you to much
to ever
MH> KW> let you go."
MH> As I said, real love won't do that. And abusers can always find some
MH> justification for their abuse.
Just hold her breath and pray he stops beating her, eh, Mike. It looks
pretty on paper, but it just doesn't fly.
MH> KW> So we get to submit in exchange for love. Love the woman as yourself
MH> KW> while you practise a faith that asks self-loathing as the cost of
a
MH> KW> ticket to salvation.
MH> MH> The picture Paul paints is mutual submission. In an ideal marriage,
MH> MH> each partner is focused on the other first, not the self. This fosters
MH> MH> a dual benefit -- each partner has their needs met, out of the other's
MH> MH> love, not out of selfishness. The man and woman are both learning
MH> MH> and growing in the art of giving to others -- to one another.
MH> KW> With the woman paying in submission and receiving back 'love'.
Why
MH> KW> does it not say that the man will submit to his wife, and return
she
MH> KW> will love him?
MH> The very first phrase of the passage is "Submit to one another."
MH> Apparently, you missed it just like abusive men do.
Pretty hard to have a mutual submission going when one party isn't even
allowed to speak up for herself. How is she to enforce her half of that
'submit to one another' when she isn't allowed to 'instruct' her husband?
He submits to the state of the slave master and she submits to the role
of the slave, all for jesus? Ugh.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Certainty is for those who can't handle reality.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: I'M BACK
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:f58a 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cd793778
LB> KW> Fine, roll up your sleeves and get over to the sink. I'm in the
mood
LB> KW> to do something french. A real buttercream, perhaps? And if I
have to
LB> KW> cook without shoes, you can stand there and wash dishes barefooted.
LB>Psst! Katherine! Just for clarification, WHERE was that guy standing
when
LB>you brained him with the frying pan?!
Beside the table. He knocked me into the counter next to the stove,
and turned to walk out of the room.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Chef: (n.) Any cook that swears in French
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Kerry Renaissance
|Sub: Re: Religion Debate?
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:9dae 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a81a59ce
KR> -=> Quoting Rodney Green to All <=-11 Feb 96 03:38:36
KR> RG> Why debate about religion when we could talk about Jesus?
KR> Because we don't *want* to talk about Jesus, and that's why we're debating
KR> religion?
KR> He's dead, at any rate. Not much to talk about.
Well, we can always gossip about his sex life.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Conservative Rule #2: When caught lying, feign hysteria
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:01:00
EID:049d 20502020
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org da05ad0e
DC>-> On 02-10-96 15:49, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC>-> On 01-30-96 15:54, Katherine Wintersnight got back to John Prewett
DC> DC>him to have forgotten. May have taken him a nanosecond or less
DC> DC>to do a core dump...
DC> KW> Sounds like a very small system, with few options and obsolete
DC> KW> hardware.
DC>He makes the Co-Co look like state of the art!
Honeybunch, he's a broken abacus.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * CRAP: The result of a vowel movement in CARP.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Homocrystal sextants.
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:abfa 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org aaef5fd2
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled "Homocrystal
PS>sextants."
PS> KW> I first became aware of that one by reading the "Decameron" at the
age
PS> KW> of eleven.
PS>Ick. I haven't read it yet, but I know the gist of the plot, and I wouldn't
PS>expose a kid to it at age eleven, unless the kid was *very* precocious.
I will admit certain of the stories went over my head. But the
majority of them I enjoyed tremendously. The story of Griselda (it's in
the tenth decade) made me mad. But, then, I was rather precocious
(hell, I was a down right poisonous child).
PS> PS> KW> truth, though, if we take the desire for the deed, it would
be better
PS> PS> KW> to compare him to ringworm. Or a tick, with his head buried
sucking
PS> PS> KW> away and his ass waving in the air. Anyone have a match?
PS> PS>Not me, I gave 'em up for Lent.
PS> KW> Well, I'll just have to use a lit cigarette. Tea tree oil is to
good
PS> KW> for him.
PS>Kerosene is also too good for him.
Now, now, Preston. We don't want to immolate him, we just want him to
pull his head out and look around.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * D.A.M.N.: Naked Mothers Against Dyslexia
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:09db 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f6efda34
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled "ONE LAST
COMMENT
PS> KW> We had a case of that about two weeks ago. Some one stole the
PS> KW> flowers, vase, and stuffed toy off the fresh grave of a three year
old
PS> KW> girl. Her grandmother wrote a rather incendiary guest editorial
about
PS> KW> it. It's a sad world.
PS>It's worse than sad, it's downright detestable.
It's an ongoing problem here, esp. around holidays like Valentines Day,
and Mother's Day.
PS> KW> Yeah. A real shame. We've been having trouble with man hole covers.
PS> KW> The damn things are worth $50 as junk metal, so they just disappear.
PS>You know why manhole covers are round, don't you?
Because if they were square some idiot child would find a way to drop
them through the whole.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Dancing naked in the moonlight...it's not just for solstice
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Abortion
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:19e7 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b034242d
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled "Re: Abortion"
PS> KW> Is it a *good chocolate* business, or one of those cheap places
like
PS> KW> Hershey, et al? :)
PS>Their stuff puts Hershey to shame. They're a small chain, but they aren't
PS>as popularized as Hershey and make a wide variety of products.
Well, are you going to tell us who they are?
PS> PS>You're just using me for my connections.
PS> KW> That depends. How good a grade of chocolate are we talking about
(I'm
PS> KW> partial to Suchard myself).
PS>I rank their stuff as slightly below Godiva, or perhaps equal to on a
good
PS>day.
Preston, It's not safe to tease a chocolaholic. There are several of us
on this echo. Now, who are these paragons, and do they do mail order?
PS> PS>Heavens, no. He might do something dangerous with it.
PS> KW> Like sniff it?
PS>Or eat it.
Okay, so he's a termite.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Dear God...Protect me from your followers
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: HS WEB PAGE
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:ea9c 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 00b8a772
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled "HS WEB PAGE"
PS> PS>I had a really nasty one last night, debatably the worst one I've
ever
PS> PS>experienced.
PS> KW> I'm sorry to hear that, Preston. Have they tried the new drug on
you
PS> KW> yet?
PS>No. I'd have to go get a prescription for it and I'm pretty sure that
it
PS>would invalid me on giving blood on a permanent basis.
Call your local bloodbank, and ask. Taking large doses of tylenol or
motrin can do the same thing, by the way. Both drugs can cause liver
damage with the resultant enzymes in the blood. I just spent a year
'out' because of this (I take a hefty amount of motrin for arthritis).
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Do Baptists suffer from Amen!orrhea?
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:ed4c 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7d67b55c
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled "THE 10
PS>COMMANDMENTS"
PS> PS>Oh, gawds. Now you're going to try to seduce me with them thar feminine
PS> PS>wiles of yours.
PS> KW> Why, Preston!
PS>And me just having taken an oath of celibacy. Pity.
Do we get to hold you to that?
PS> PS>I can't see cleavage through a written medium, Katherine.
PS> KW> You have, I'm told, an imagination. Don't try and convince me that
PS> KW> you are not using it.
PS>Why, whatever gave you that idea?
Because your first thought was to look down my blouse. All I said was
that I leaned forward.
PS> PS>Mmm-hmm. And where did you go for this flattery course?
PS> KW> Mom&Aunts U.
PS>I take it that you got good marks.
Not really. I tended to think the whole thing was ridiculous.
Especially the lessons on the care and feeding of the delicate and
fragile male ego. According to my female relatives, that silly ego was
just as troublesome as a womb, and three times more likely to
incapacitate the bearer. And this was from southern type women who
expressed their femininity by either 'having female problems' or 'going
to pieces'.
PS> PS>I've met a few of those types. They almost universally have very
small
PS> PS>eyes buried underneath a huge, sloping forehead. I wonder why.
PS> KW> They wondered what became of the Neanderthal.
PS>If they wonder at all.
Dim little buggers, eh? Ever notice that cast of features
shows up with permanently hunched shoulders and a nice rounded spine.
Trashy folk.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Do TV Evangelists do more than Lay people?
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Pink?
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:1cc3 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org acfe5ae3
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled "Pink?"
PS> PS>It's the '50s syndrome. He still equates "Russian" with "Godless
Commie
PS> PS>Aggressor Scum."
PS> KW> Oh, yes. The Russian horde, studying serious facts.
PS>It's not difficult to understand, really. But I pity the Russians as
a whole
PS>almost as much as I despise some of them singly (and one Georgian in
PS>particular).
I do remember wondering, at about the age of 6 or 7 (this would be mid
60's), what all the fuss about communism was if they had to lock their
people in to keep them. But, then, at that age I thought Radio Free
Europe meant that the Europeans didn't have any radios.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Do we have to save the universe AGAIN!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub:
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:b679 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 03ff7c8f
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled " deleted>"
PS> PS> KW> You are not even curious about it?
PS> PS>His mind is taxed with maintaining vital functions. He hasn't the
neurons
PS> PS>to spare for curiosity.
PS> KW> Personally, I think that he's plain scared of what he'd turn up
if he
PS> KW> did start asking questions.
PS>Probably so. Even if he doesn't consciously realize it.
Put it in a box, mark it 'Holy, do not touch', and *run* *away*. There
ought to be a foundation to help people like that.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Doing my best to piss off the Religious Reich
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Fundamentalists R Us
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:46bd 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 9526b79c
DW>08 Feb 96 16:28, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Preston Simpson:
DW> KW> I'll have to try that the next time the cats knock my glasses off
the
DW> KW> headboard. My usual MO is to sit very still and howl for help.
The
DW> KW> first time Bear witnessed the panic attack if I couldn't find my
DW> KW> glasses nearly got him and his perfect 20\20 vision hurt. He thought
DW> KW> that it was funny, and tried teasing me with the old 'you're getting
DW> KW> warmer' routine.
DW>Bear doesn't sound too bright. Was this before or after you told him
about
DW>forcibly introducing your ex to the spider? :)
DW>(You realize, of course, that the spider has gone down in Holysmoke Lore?)
Bear does have his moments of testosterone overload. But, then, the
only time he's ever hit me was when he was definably not mentally
competent (once when he had a concussion and was coming back to
consciousness, and a few swings when his blood sugar was in the 25-35
range).
Bear is smart. I may tease him about the few things he isn't good at,
but on the whole he stacks up as superior to 99% of the men that I have
met in my life. He just happens to have perfect vision, and just
doesn't understand about not being able to see.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Don't ask me--the cats are in charge around here!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Persevere
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:429a 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2d36e869
DM>Katherine Wintersnight said "Persevere" to Don Martin,
DM>adding:
DM> JB> DM> away) willing to play Tammy Faye, but only a few of them can
play
DM> JB> DM> the piano or the electric organ (there goes George, again),
and most
DM> KW>
DM> KW> I think I missed the original of this.
DM> KW> I could try to talk K'Lyn into this. She plays the piano and organ.
DM> KW> If we do have a holysmoke get together, maybe we should have a talent
DM> KW> show .
DM> Talent show, hell. We'll get a tent from Aarrow and hold
DM>a real revival. There is no money in talent shows.
How much money are we talking about here?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Don't f*** up what you have for what you remember.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:9247 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 02d81854
JB>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> KW> Excuse my naive ignorance, but what did he consider a S&M theme?
JB> KW> China whips? Stoneware ball gags?
JB>I was afraid to ask. But he did want figurines, or 'anything' along that
JB>line, 'as long as it has an S&M theme'.
Bound slave girl salt and pepper shakers, I'd guess.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Doubt is the origin of truth. Know yourself. -- Socrates
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: your strip
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:58:00
EID:e7df 20506f40
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f91a0b04
SA>And Brave Sir Katherine ran away, screaming "your strip"!
SA> KW> I downloaded your strip from Kevin's web page. This is *good* stuff.
SA>It's on his webpage? Neat! :)
Yep.
SA> KW> I really did enjoy it, and I thought Bear was going to laugh himself
SA> KW> sick over the business about Tobit and the runestones. Would it
do any
SA>Thank you. Appreciate the feedback.
SA>I'm planning on releasing another file in a few weeks, but at the
SA>moment my friend with the scanner is quite ill, and I'll have to work
SA>out a way to correct the light-dark problem in the first one. I
SA>_might_ be getting my own scanner in a little while, though, which
SA>will be a big help.
I'm looking forward to it.
SA> KW> good if people started writing into their local paper and requesting
it
SA> KW> (I know very little about how these things work)?
SA>It might, it might not. Usually they buy only from syndicates,
SA>and I've been rejected by the major ones already. But I suppose
SA>if some public interest is shown, they might have a change of
SA>heart. You'd have my thanks either way; and one of these days
SA>when I can afford a place with a stove, the folks who've been a
SA>help are going to get some homemade chocolate chip cookies, at the
SA>very least. :) [I genreally can't cook, but that, at least, is one
SA>of the two or three things I -can- make well.]
Well, it's worth a try, at least. They've just redone our comics page,
and the new editor seems to like a bit more bite then the old one did.
:)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Evangelists: the higher the hair, the closer to God.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 16 Feb 96 12:50:36
EID:c783 20506640
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3124bbc7
Alan Hess said "Adolph Hitler (yawn)" to John Prewett,
adding:
JP> "Replaced" ? Hmmmmmm,
JP> I've seen a lot of books combining Testaments I AND II.
AH> So why don't Christians keep kosher, among other things? Because they
AH> wrote a new book, and kept the parts they liked of the old one.
Right--with them Leviticus' banning of "mixed fibers"
was thrown out with the new covenant. God still hates
faggots, though. (It is nice to know that some things really
are eternal. . . .)
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 16 Feb 96 12:59:27
EID:9207 20506760
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3124bbc8
REPLY: 1:280/9 17131bcd
Rob Burcham said "Our Daily Bread" to George Mooth,
adding:
GM> Your words of pure, eternal truth
GM> Shall yet unshaken stay,
GM> When all that man has thought or planned,
GM> Like chaff shall pass away. -Anon
RB> Your words of myth, eternal lies
RB> Shall pass away some day,
RB> Then, the thoughts and deeds of man
RB> Will finally have a say. -RB
Your words, that you imagine "truth,"
Collapse from lack of fact,
Yet still you bleat them to poor youth:
Your most indecent act. -DM
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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40
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Old Farts
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:05:59
EID:011b 205068a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3124bbc9
REPLY: 1:280/9 17131bd0
Rob Burcham said "Old Farts" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> DH> DM> A surprise: a fart with a lump in it.
DM> DH>
DM> DH> A Staal: A Lump with a fart in it.
DM>
DM> RB> A fart: a Lump with a Staal in it.
DM>
DM> A lump: a fart with a Staal in it.
DM>
DM> (How many else will complete this Ring? Tolkein will be
DM> SO pleased!)
RB> Did you ever imagine that all your years of English study
RB> would culminate in THIS?
Hey, it beats attempting to explain future perfect
tenses to freshmen.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Mootherfucker
|Sub: Our Daily BS
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:16:12
EID:e796 20506a00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3124bbca
George Mootherfucker said "Our Daily BS" to All,
adding:
GM> OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand
GM> Rapids, Michigan. Used by permission.
Do you ever write/think for yourself, or are you only
here to demonstrate your typing skills?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Rodney Green
|Sub: Very much alive!
|Date: 16 Feb 96 13:16:12
EID:4d98 20506a00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3124bbcb
REPLY: 1:260/801.0 312404d6
Rodney Green said "Very much alive!" to Kerry Renaissance,
adding:
RG> You see, God is
RG> alive, Jesus is very much alive in the hearts of TRUE believers
RG> everywhere.
Granted. And just how do you propose to distinguish this
state of affairs from the mere operation of human
imagination (or from heartworm, for that matter)? I presume
your definitions are circular: those believers who suppose
Jesus to be alive in their hearts are the TRUE believers,
right? And those who lack that supposition are the false
ones (but STILL better than those wicked old atheists who
lack belief entirely)?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List
|Date: 16 Feb 96 14:47:57
EID:3329 205075e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3124d146
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 123d5760
Ryan Shaw said "The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List" to Don Martin,
adding:
RS> Do you have much in the way of craft brewers up in your neck of the
RS> woods?
Two in Maryland that I've found, and a knot of them in
PA--good old German population there.
RS> I often brag about the fact that here in Oregon we have the largest
RS> concentration of craft breweries and brewpubs. It often takes hours
RS> at the supermarket to make up my mind. It's a great time to be a beer
RS> lover. :)
Growing up in Washington state in the 50's, I was so
benighted as to suppose that Budweiser was GOOD. Back then,
it, Schlitz, Millers, et al. were _Eastern_ beers sold for a
premium price. The west had an inferiority complex about its
brewing capabilities.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 14 Feb 96 13:29:00
EID:d432 204e6ba0
February 16 Friday
THE BLESSING OF PERSECUTION
Read: Matthew 5:1-12
Blessed are those who are persecuted
for righteousness' sake, for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven.
-Matthew 5:10
Persecution, even martyrdom, has been the cost of discipleship for
Christians down through the centuries. In many lands believers
still suffer imprisonment and death for their uncompromising
devotion to their Savior. Even in nations that have religious
freedom, a person with a bold witness for the Lord may become the
target of ridicule.
When we experience hardship because of our Christian commitment,
no verse of Scripture is more comforting than the beatitude spoken
by our Savior, "Blessed are those who are persecuted for
righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.
5:10).
At one time in his life, British preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon
was so intensely criticized that he became deeply depressed. So his
wife printed that beatitude along with the other seven on a large
sheet of paper and placed it above their bed. The first thing
Spurgeon saw in the morning and the last thing he read at night was
our Savior's glorious promise.
Are you discouraged because you are suffering for your Christian
testimony? The antidote is this one sustaining promise: "Blessed
are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake."
Vernon C. Grounds
The consecrated cross I'll bear
Till death shall set me free,
And then go home, my crown to wear,
For there's a crown for me. -Shepherd
IF YOU LIVE FOR GOD,
YOU CAN EXPECT TROUBLE FROM THE WORLD.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
---
ž 1st 2.00 #1855 ž God's baud rate is ģ.
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: flood
|Date: 16 Feb 96 11:14:00
EID:10ce aa0a0700
MSGID: 1:206/2720 178af78e
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 312321c6
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> AB> Sorry. I hadn't quoted Nietzsche for too long; it's an addiction,
> AB> really. Reading too much Nietzsche seems to be the cause. I don't
> AB> know any cure (perhaps taking up religion?)
> You might try doing the quoting only in German
> (getting
> the umlauts and essets to come out right on the other
> end is
> GREAT discipline): that could probably cure anything.
Doubtful. I've been wanting to improve my German. Quoting Nietzsche in
German would be good practice.
"Und ihr sagt mir, Freunde, dass nichts zu streiten sei ueber Geschmack
und Schmecken? Aber alles Leben is streit um Geschmack und Schmecken!
Geschmack: das ist Gewicht zugleich und Waagschale und Waegender; und wehe
allem Lebendigen, das ohne Streit um Gewicht und Waagschale und Waegende
leben wollte!"
Sure, I cheated on the special German characters, but it's a legitimate
method, recognized by the Germans themselves.
The quote, by the way, is not especially relevant; it's just a good one,
and I used it on the title page of my senior thesis, in which I defended
ethical subjectivism.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: JIM STAAL
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:04:24
EID:0d09 20502080
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3124cdd4
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to George Rudzinski <=-
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Judith Bandsma <=-
GR> How much do you need? Netmail me the amount needed.
JB> Will do.
Judy,
Just found out the BBS I dl messages from is going down. Don't sent info
until I acquire new access. Figure two to three days.
GR> You aren't going to get SBA rates but then I'm not going to get any
GR> gaurantees either.
JB> Well, I ain't gonna get SBA rates from the SBA, so what difference
JB> does that make.
Good point.
As for guarantees, the best I can say is that I've been
JB> in business since January 10, 1987. I am over the 3-5 year hump where
JB> most businesses fail. Doesn't make for a guarantee, but does give a
JB> better indicator of stability.
Yes it does. My education includes a failed business after two years.
I'll
be looking for the mistakes I made in your operation.
GR> invester. And Netmail me all the info you provided for the SBA. I'm
GR> not a dumb invester. Okay, not any more.
JB>
JB> Can I do a summary?
No problem.
This is an awful LOT of stuff and has not been
JB> updated in 2 years. If you want more after that, I will send it.
If you want my money, I know you will.
The
JB> short version should be enough for you to decide whether or not you
are
JB> interested. (Even that is about 5 or 6 pages in condensed print)
Sounds good.
GR> Hmmm? I think I get to charge loan shark rates. But that is
GR> cheaper than credit card rates.
JB>
JB> Actually, my credit card rates are lower than the commercial loan
JB> institutions. In order to purchase a badly needed new kiln I took out
a
JB> personal loan with Associates. Their rates at that time were 32% and
JB> have gone up to 38%.
You would have been better off with a loan shark.
I had no choice, though. Without that kiln, a
JB> large portion of my business would have had to be referred to other
JB> shops.
Did you consider buying time on their kiln from other shops? Hey! I had
to
ask, I'm a great fan of Demming.
BTW if this goes through, throw a ceramic owl my wife's way every Oct 9th
and
Christmas. My wife is an owl junky. I've got owl towels, owl places mats,
owl coasters, owl figurines all over the place and a three foot ceramic
owl
lamp with no guts, shade and short one eye.
GR> Now don't get me wrong. I'm not making any promises to you. But I
am
GR> interested in making a private investment.
JB> Not expecting any promises. I would probably be very leery of anyone
JB> who did promise.
As long as we understand where we are coming from. I might say no and it
is strictly business, nothing personal.
When it comes to business I have found that promises
JB> usually involve some very big and nasty surprises later down the road.
I know what you mean.
So to make sure that you know where I'm coming from I have to tell you that
I
can't match the resources of the SBA. So how much money are you looking
for?
What interest rate are you expecting to pay? What do you expect to be the
duration of the loan?
Don't let the last question throw you. I am willing to float a loan for
as
long as 20 years. But I would like to see a time table.
JB> The fact that you are willing to consider it and look at what I send
JB> you is better than what I get from the local institutions that are in
JB> the business of business.
One of the faults of the South. The good-old-boy network. I'm a yankee,
I'm
simply interested in making money.
JB> Don't expect the info before you get this message. I'll have to do
JB> some updating and get it into a format that will go out and be readable
JB> over netmail.
No problem.
JB> Thanks.
If you make me some money, I'll be thanking you.
Call me funny, but I like paying Capital Gains Taxes. It is a sure sign
that
my money is working and I've got time to do something other than work.
george
... Dole! For Family Values, we don't want sex in the White House.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: Re: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:12:17
EID:0b29 20502180
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3124cdd5
-=> Quoting Steve Wallis to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> Hispanics, orientals, other religions. All in the name of Jesus, of
JB> course.
JB>
SW> Focus on the Family is a Christian organization that is praised for
SW> helping 1000's of souls come to Christ. What authority do you have to
SW> knock it. None at all.
Steve,
The Bible. Any Focus on the Family puke can belly up to the bar.
Mark 16:15-18, Christ showed me how to tell the true believers from the
fakes.
Take some time to think before you reply, after
SW> all you are in controll arnt you Judith?
Mark 16:15-18. Take some time, I'll pour. Who knows chemistry better,
your
god or me?
george
... Typical fundie, kill his god for him and he doesn't even thank you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Re: Kenny is back into his denial.
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:21:05
EID:c29b 205022a0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3124cdd6
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> And apparently you aren't one of them. You do recall running into the
GR> night when I mentioned Mark 16:15-18.
KM> If I went running I would not be here, or do you recall me telling you
KM> that I will not tempt the Lord?
Kenny,
I'm doing the tempting. All you have to do is the believing in the Lord
part.
KM>> There is not babble of fairy-tales, but there is a Bible
KM>> and it is not a bunch of fairy-tales.
GR> Apparently you think Mark 16:15-18 is a fairy-tale.
KM> Never said that either, nor do I consider Christ a fairy-tale when he
KM> taught us not to give signs like your asking for.
So Christ's statements in Mark 16:15-18 are a lie? A Biblical lie?
He clearly states believers will be known by signs.
KM>> There is no such thing as a
KM>> gawd, but there is a God.
GR> That can't tell you the chemical formula for the pills on my monitor.
KM> Still trying to tempt God I see.
You forget Mark 16:15-18. I tempt your god, you call god a liar.
george
... Neat little religion you've got there, but where is the god?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:54:47
EID:2e45 205026c0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3124cdd7
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to George Rudzinski <=-
KM> Thursday February 08 1996 08:58, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth
KM> Mcabee:
PS>> I don't have to show you the note. Prove that I don't have it, as per
PS>> your request that I prove that there isn't a God.
KM>> Like I said Preston, I'll see you in court when you try to claim that
KM>> money you think I owe you.
GR> And we'll see you in court with your evidence for your god. You can't
GR> have it both ways. If we have to prove a negative to show you there
is no
GR> god, you must prove a negative and show you don't owe a great many people
GR> money.
KM> I'll see you in HIS court, then you won't need the evidence, but by
KM> then it might be too late.
Kenny,
Go scare children with this brainless shit. It doesn't scare me little
man.
GR> Yet you fail to pay up because you know very well that proving a negative
GR> is impossible, and you demand evidence.
KM> I demand evidence? No, I did not demand anything.
You demanded the note stupid, read what you wrote above.
I have something
KM> that fits the definition of evidence.
A dead brain. I won't argue with that.
Of course once I tell you what
KM> it is, you'll call it a babble of fairy-tales.
Unless you have a live Jesus in your pocket, I can only call it as I see
it.
GR> So do we.
KM> Read a Bible.
PS>>> What it boils down to is this: In this universe, asking someone to
PS>>> prove a negative (see claims like "Where's your evidence that a God
PS>>> who can do ANYTHING doesn't exist?") is foolish, idiotic, and bound
PS>>> to be loaded with other qualifiers that speak poorly of the
PS>>> intelligence of the person who made the request. In short, Ken,
PS>>> nobody with a grain of common sense asks anyone to show evidence that
PS>>> any attribute of any hypothetical god or the hypothetical god itself
PS>>> *doesn't* exist. Instead, we ask for evidence that the god or
PS>>> attribute *does* exist, which is generally a lot easier to do than
PS>>> showing that it *doesn't*.
KM>>> You can call it whatever you want. The point is this, if God can do
KM>>> anything, which includes stuff like making floods disappear without
a
PS>> Making them disappear without a trace? Isn't that lying? Or at the
PS>> very least, obscuring the evidence of his existence?
KM>> No it is in no way lying, obscuring the evidence of his existence,
KM>> maybe, but then the Bible does tell us to believe by Faith, not by
KM>> evidence.
GR> Then why do you have a Bible? Without the Bible as evidence who knows
GR> what god you would be worshipping.
KM> Without the Bible, I would probably end up in hell.
GR> And your response to Mark 16:15-18 already shows you have no faith in
even
GR> that bit of evidence.
KM> No, my response to YOU shows that I do have faith in my Lord, and
KM> follow his example, not to give ones like the pharisee, and satan
KM> signs, nor to tempt my Lord thy God.
GR> You may not believe this but you are almost well. All us ex-fundies
GR> fought the hardest as the lest shreads of our illness were torn from
us.
GR> At the time we also had to resort to your tactics, turning reality on
and
GR> off to make sense of reality.
KM> I have not had to turn reality off and on, your simple tackics will
KM> not turn me from my God.
That can't quite seem to get you to turn to your faith in your god either.
Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour.
If you are once saved and you claim now not
KM> believe, it is you that is miserbly because deep down, you know that
KM> God loves, you and what you are doing is wrong.
I'm not miserable. I'm having fun driving you over the edge lemming.
And it is you that
KM> will answer for your deception, not I.
What deception? I don't claim to believe in the Bible and then run from
Mark 16:15-18 when my faith runs out. I know I can't drink poison and live
and
there is no god to prevent me from dying because I'm a believer.
You claim to be a believer and run from the words of your document of faith.
GR> You just allowed your god to lie above by obscurring evidence. Either
god
GR> is lying or the book is lying. You chose to make god the liar rather
than
GR> the book.
KM> Nope, I choose no such thing, God did not leave any evidence for you
KM> to find of the flood, but he did tell you about it, therefore he did
KM> not conceal anything.
Shithead. God didn't tell me anything. God doesn't talk to me. The Bible
is
written by man, not got.
GR> Shows just what you have faith in, and it isn't some god.
KM> Wrong, I have faith in God.
Mark 16:15-18, I'll pour. Liar!
Where you may have left him for your own
KM> pleasure, I will not,
Too bad. I've been married to a lovely woman for 19 years and have raised
a
great son for the past 17. A pure trip through pleasureville.
you see I have more than just the Bible for my
KM> proof or evidence of God.
You keep claiming that. Why can't you show it?
But that which I have to increase my faith
KM> would only be laughable to you, why? Because, unless you believe Moses
KM> and the prophets you will not believe.
Circular argument.
GR> It is a book
GR> written by mere men.
KM> Inspired by God.
Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour. Care to belly your mortal ass to the bar and
bet
on that?
GR> Now if you honestly believed that god created the
GR> universe, why do you deny the only unequivical evidence he has left
us of
GR> the event, i.e. the creation itself? Why do you refuse to believe god's
GR> universe if you say you have faith in god?
KM> I don't refuse God, you do.
How so? I believe the universe. You believe a book.
KM>>> trace. You cannot prove to me that he does not exist, because first
PS>> Of course I can't, largely for the same reasons that I can't prove
PS>> that the Sun won't turn into a bran muffin next Tuesday.
KM>> Thank you for being truthful.
GR> Sun's don't turn into bran muffins and you still are short one god.
KM> Let me see..... Nope, God's still here.
Mark 16:15-18. I'll bet he isn't liar.
KM>>> off I believe he can do anything. Telling me for instance that there
PS>> How nice for you. Belief isn't equal to evidence, Ken. Do you
PS>> understand this proposition?
KM>> Evidence is not needed for eternal life Preston, Faith is.
GR> And you can't show one dead person enjoying this eternal life.
KM> I can show you at least one person that according to all the doctors
KM> was dead. And that person lives.... Come to think if it, wasn't there
KM> and ex-athiest on TV the other day? Claim he or she visisted hell?
KM> Have to admit, didn't see it, but am looking for a repeat of that
KM> show.
With a brain like a toilet one does need shit to make it work.
KM>> I've never argued you to surrender your mind. Expecting God to show
KM>> himself to you is no different than the Pharisee's asking Christ for
a
KM>> sign. Remember what he told them? "An evil and adulterous nation
KM>> seeketh after a sign". Anytime a sign was asked of him, he said he
KM>> would not give it. Not to the Pharisee's, not to Satan, so why would
KM>> you expect him to show you a sign Preston?
GR> But according to your religion he did give them a sign, he rose from
the
GR> dead. He healed the sick and turned water into wine. All signs, or
at
GR> least that is what we are told.
KM> But he did not give signs when he was demanded it by folks to prove
he
KM> was the Son of God.
And shit for brains I'm not asking God for a sign, I'm asking you for a
sign as
a believer per Mark 16:15-18. You are the one who's ass is on the line.
You
are making the claims, I'm asking you to back them up per the Bible.
People like the pharisee's, satan, and you.
GR> Just like faith healers claims of today, under scrutiny they can't do
it.
GR> Your god is toothless under the cold scrutiny of science.
KM> I don't believe in the faith healers either.
GR> And again Mark 16:15-18. If you drink I'll know exactly when to expect
it
GR> and your god won't be able to do a thing about it.
KM> And again Luke 16:31
Unfortunately shit for brains, you aren't tempting god, you are merely showing
signs that believers are supposed to be able to show.
I guess this is an admission that you really aren't a believer.
KM>>> Faith says that God can do anything, and that he could even create
a
PS>> Faith says that there's an invisible pink hippo sitting in the room
PS>> with you right now. So what?
KM>> Sorry, faith has nothing to do with invisible pink hippo's, you can
KM>> try and pervert faith all you want Preston, it will do no good with
KM>> me.
GR> It is not a perversion of faith. It is what faith is.
KM> How would you know? You claim you don't have any.
Are you terminally stupid? I have clearly stated that I had faith at one
time.
GR> Then the only reason you came here is for us to cure you.
KM> Nope, so that you will be made accountable.
So you are god's secretary? Is your omnipotent god that much of a puke
that
he needs you to keep tabs on me?
KM>> Yes, and faith says that you can move a mountian if you have enough
of
KM>> it.
GR> Re-read your Bible fundie. It says, "Even if your faith is smaller
than
GR> a mustard seed...".
KM> Even if you faith is as that of a mustard seed... not smaller.
GR> So I guess you have much less faith than that.
KM> So then you agree that faith can be measured.. Good.
And I'm measuring it fundie. Mark 16:15-18. Your faith won't even allow
you
to believe the Bible, let alone move mountains.
KM>>> that the scriptures that the Bible came from are all written about
KM>>> this same God. So if you ask me for evidence I will show you the
PS>> That's a screwed-up god you worship, then. A guy who's all fire and
PS>> brimstone for half the book, and all bunnies and light with an ominous
PS>> side for the other half?
GR> Preston! God got a shot of leg from Mary at the half-way point. It
GR> mellowed him out.
KM>> All fire and brimstone for half? Have you read the same book that I
KM>> have?
Have you? Christ died for all man's sins. No conditions.
GR> He was whacking everyone right and left that weren't his people and
GR> didn't treat his people much better.
KM> Not when they turned his back on them, what's that say about you?
It says your god doesn't exist. I've got more than a few of you religious
assholes praying for me to die.
KM>> Like I said Preston, it doesn't take evidence, it takes faith.
GR> So why does your religion need a Bible if it takes faith? And as your
GR> fear of Mark has shown, you don't have much in the faith department.
KM> Don't need "much", btw thanks for being truthful and admitting that
I
KM> have faith.
Shithead, you don't have faith. You needed the Bible to find god. You
needed
evidence, as poor as it is.
GR> If you
KM>> were a Christian and read your Bible you would know that already.
GR> You are lying here. You said it takes faith. You didn't say anything
GR> about written records be they fact or fiction.
KM> Oh, forgetting my quotes of Luke 16:31, maybe I should start that
KM> again?
Stick your quotes up your ass. You didn't get them from faith, you got
them
from a document you consider evidence.
GR> You have the Night Before Christmas yet you do not believe in Santa,
and I
GR> can show you a room full of them.
KM> Actually I do believe in Santa, I've played the role many times for
my
KM> kids.
I don't doubt lying to children is your style.
GR> Because they weren't all the way dead yet stupid. Note the lack of
people
GR> breaking out of cemetaries after a year and telling us about Jesus.
The
GR> number to date in all of history is exactly zero.
KM> So your better educated than the Doctors to say whether someone is
KM> dead yet or not..
No shithead, but I know that people buried for a fucking year don't get
up and
walk out of grave yards. And I'll gaurantee that no doctor will disagree
with
me.
And you are still short one live saviour from 2000 years ago.
george
... Typical fundie, kill his god for him and he doesn't even thank you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Re: Children
|Date: 16 Feb 96 04:59:27
EID:108f 20502760
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3124cdd8
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to George Rudzinski <=-
> Styx,
> With your permission I would like to post the pictures of missing
> children on your echo. In UUE format they average 60,000 bytes
> or six messages per UUE.
> I would like to post six pictures per day which is 36 messages.
SA> In all fairness to those who pay to move our messages, I suggest
SA> that instead, you focus on making the pictures available via
SA> regular announcements.
Styx,
I'm sure that the missing children and parents' of these children will
understand that an avenue to re-unite them has been cut off due to fiscal
responsibility.
A buck is obviously worth more than a child.
george
... There is faith, True Faith, and Jesus didn't mean that. gr
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Re: Children
|Date: 16 Feb 96 05:03:42
EID:108f 20502860
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3124cdd9
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to George Rudzinski <=-
> Styx,
> Look into the eyes of nc1011, and tell me that you don't
> want her to be found.
SA> I want her to be found, but I do not believe in the concept
SA> of capitalizing on captive audiences as you have just done.
You mean you don't like your conscience tweeked?
> Hey! I know I'm rotten, I'm a Democrat.
SA> No, what's rotten is asking without waiting for my response.
It was six posts of one girl. You will survive the insult.
Why do you want other's like her to go unaccounted for because you got your
nose bent?
SA> Being a democrat merely follows that concept faithfully.
SA> Think about that while you ponder your tax forms, and how
SA> people take from your paycheck to finance programs without
SA> asking you if you support them or not.
Nobody takes from me without asking. I vote.
george
... Why do people with money tell poor people that money isn't everything?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Jon Vandenberg
|Sub: Re: Missing Children
|Date: 16 Feb 96 05:05:35
EID:5aeb 205028a0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3124cdda
-=> Quoting Jon Vandenberg to George Rudzinski <=-
JV> -=| On 09 Feb 96 04:35, George Rudzinski said: |=-
GR> At times it appears that this echo doesn't afford much opportunity for
GR> atheists and theists to co-operate on achieving a common goal. But
at
GR> times we can come together and accomplish something good for all.
JV> The MISSING children echo, and the associated GIFS of them have been
JV> around fidonet for a long time. . . where have you been?
Jon,
Read the conference rules on the Missing Children Echo.
And which of three echoes are you talking about?
Having a big mouth is easy, knowing what you are talking about requires
a bit
more effort.
george
... National Center for Missing & Abused Children. Call 1-800-THE-LOST.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:02:05
EID:c027 204fa840
MSGID: 1:207/212 6227d164
REPLY: 1:271/460 31218258
On (14 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> What better way to decieve those that might be saved, than to give them
a
KM> false religion?
And God can't send "his" word simultaneously to everywhere there are
people to combat this?
KD> Then why are there still Jews?
KM> Because they are still his chosen people.
But if the evidence for Christ was sooo convincing, they should have all
converted. I'll get a list of the prophecies Jesus didn't fulfill that
he should have.
KD> A perfect God shouldn't need our help.
KM> Not our help, he told us to do it.
Why? Doesn't do us any good. Think of all the generations that died
without knowing your mythology...
... Rule of Obedience #14 - No jokes.
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:04:13
EID:7fcd 204fa880
MSGID: 1:207/212 b0ff268b
REPLY: 1:271/460 3121885c
On (14 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> Ever been to hell? Even if for only 3 days?
I spent my teen years in hell, thanks.
Why would I believe anyone went somewhere nonexistent?
KM> Good question, ask him when you meet him.
I don't care to meet him.
KM> That's your believe and your problem, not mine.
It's god's problem to convince me.
KD> I don't know how he is. The Bible is clearly a bunch of man made
KM> fiction.
KM> That's your interpertation, not mine.
He tells me I am worth less than a man, and need to submit to a man, and
then expects me to believe it is his word?
KD> God can't handle people not believing in him?
KM> God can handle them, not thier sin.
But they're not sinning except for not singing his praises. People like
me.
KM> Learing about the Bible is not worshipping.
You need to get together that often to study your mythology?
KM> There are females in our church that teach other adults, and I have
KM> learned a lot from females as well. It says to keep silent in the church's
KM> not that you could not teach.
The point is, you are given a higher status than women. Right? This is
anathema to any thinking woman.
KM> Who create the world for you to live in? You might have a different
KM> opinion, but my opinion is God.
I need evidence. If he put me in this jail, such a horrible jail that it
was a PUNISHMENT for Adam and Eve, then he deserves not a single thanks
for happening to leave the necessities of life around.
KD> grateful for life, Ken. I'm just putting up with it.
KM> Been there thank you.
Then why are you thanking god for it?
KD> to have given me the things I need, just like you don't thank a KM>
jailer KD> that he feeds you.
KM> But, I would.
I don't think it's appropriate.
KD> They sacrificed far more than any god for me.
KM> Since you apparantly don't know God, how would you know?
I at least have evidence of my parents' sacrifices. Since they decided
to have me, I have limited gratitude towards them, as well, actually.
KM> Because he is God.
If he's god, then he can give me evidence of his existence and his
reasoning for the illogic behind the Christian belief system before I
humble myself, thanks.
He's all powerful and perfect, but he can't send his word to all nations
at the same time to compete with so called false religions. He relies on
a small group in the middle east to gain power in order to do so.
I should be grateful and bow down to him for letting me live in a world
that was a punishment to the first 2 people he created.
An all powerful god can't forgive us our sins without a sacrifice?
The person who is wronged is the one who sacrifices for the one doing
the wrong?
KM> Why do I have breath?
Because you're alive.
KM> KM>> to tell you why God made it that way. All I can say is that that
is
KM> KM>> the way it is, that is what God said has to be done, so that is
the
KM> KM>> way that it must be.
KD> Sorry, I'm not that gullible.
KM> Doesn't take being gullible, just sensible.
Sense means accepting only the evidence of your senses, and having some
healthy skepticism about what they tell you. NOT accepting circular
logic from a 2000+ year old mythology.
... My name is Annie Key. Please don't hit me.
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:21:39
EID:7fcd 204faaa0
MSGID: 1:207/212 398704fa
REPLY: 1:271/460 3121893b
On (14 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> And if she did not sin, she would not have abused you.
OK, let's take this one step at a time - if she hurt me, who needs to
make amends to whom?
KD> You've never seen the destructiveness that comes with it, then. Very
KD> definitely a character flaw. OR a flaw in the relationship.
KM> Really? What do you know about my life?
What you state. Anyone who doesn't see jealousy as a character flaw has
never seen its destructive capabilities.
KM> Are you trying to say that a lot of marriages end because someone was
KM> jealous?
Yup.
KM> Because as you pointed out earlier he is a jealous God, and also, if
you
KM> are worshipping something else, how can you believe in him? And it is
KM> through belief that you gain everlastin life.
Why is he so hung up on being believed in?
... Politics: poli=many tics=small blood-sucking insects
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: suff'rin
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:24:18
EID:67d8 204fab00
MSGID: 1:207/212 e1a835eb
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892343AF
On (14 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> But it's not. What's significant is WHAT God did -- taking all the
sin
MH> of everyone who ever threw themselves on God's mercy, or ever would,
MH> into his holy, righteous self, and expiating it -- taking it on himself
MH> so that we could be free of it.
Huh? This is the worst circular logic I have ever heard. If you need to
forgive someone, you do so. No sacrifice is necessary.
... "On a night out..." -- The Criminologist
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Religion Debate?
|Date: 15 Feb 96 21:25:39
EID:3493 204fab20
MSGID: 1:207/212 cbbc3005
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892343B7
On (14 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> You do realize that in saying Jesus didn't exist, you're contradicting
MH> 99 percent of all historians? Even those who insist he wasn't divine
MH> don't deny he existed.
I said as he is portrayed in the Bible. And I believe your statement is
incorrect. Any historian who said so has been duped.
MH> I hope you have a pretty good reason to make that claim.
Most historians believe there is historical basis for the character of
King Arthur, as well. In fact I've seen far more evidence for Arthur
than for Jesus. Does that mean that the Mabinogion, with many
supernatural claims surrounding the stories about Arthur and other
characters, is all true?
... "It's time again for another Good Idea/Bad Idea"
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: role model for Maria
|Date: 15 Feb 96 11:33:00
EID:8218 204f5c20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31249889
And Brave Sir J.J. ran away, screaming "role model for Maria"!
SA> (I once heard tell that she came incognito to a southern US
SA> horse farm to buy a couple more horses and leave with as little
SA> fuss as possible.)
JH> Does she sign her checks Liz Windsor?
Does Charles have an uncanny resemblance to Chuck E. Cheese? :)
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "And just where are all these ships headed?" "Straight at _ME_!"
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 11:34:01
EID:c771 204f5c40
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3124988a
And Brave Sir John ran away, screaming "OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR..."!
TR> I haven't read it, but I'm going to look for it now that I know about
TR> it. Sounds like something I'll enjoy. Ever read "the man who folded
TR> himself"? The hero goes back and rescues Jesus off the cross (with
TR> the assistance of an M-16). When he gets back to his own time,
TR> "modern civilization" consists of "brown men in huts who'd never heard
TR> of the United States". So he goes back, stops himself from
TR> interfering
TR>
SA> So what's so horrible about that? I don't get it. ;)
JP> Bet you like electricity and indoor plumbing.
But I HATE hydro and water bills.
Besides, I was mainly referring to "never heard of the United
States". I envy those "brown men in mud huts" in that way. :P
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... To women, men are like big dogs that talk.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 15 Feb 96 14:59:00
EID:d432 204f7760
February 17 Saturday
ROLLS-ROYCE
Read: Matthew 5:27-48
You shall be perfect, just as your
Father in heaven is perfect.
-Matthew 5:48
When Henry Rolls was walking through his factory in its early
days, he overheard a lathe operator say, "Oh, that'll do," as he
tossed a part into a basket. The part looked all right to the
casual observer, but Henry Rolls expected his workmen to use a
micrometer and be satisfied with nothing less than precision
accuracy. So when Mr. Rolls heard that comment, he reprimanded the
man, "That may do for anyone else, but it will not do for
Rolls-Royce."
God is satisfied with nothing less than perfection. Divine
specifications so not allow for any flaws. Jesus brought this out
in Matthew 5:21-48. First He said to His listeners, "You have
heard" - that's the human standard. Then He said, "But I say to
you" - that's God's standard. He highlighted the perfection by
which God's children should stand out from the crowd on six of
life's most crucial issues: anger (vv21-22), sexual purity
(vv.27-30), marital fidelity (vv.31-32), honesty in speech
(vv.33-37), nonretaliation (vv.38-42), and treatment of enemies
(vv.43-48).
Father, forgive us for being satisfied with less than the best,
with what may be good but is not good enough. Help us by Your
Spirit to keep striving to be perfect as You are perfect (v.48).
-Dennis J. De Haan
Good, better, best -
Never let it rest,
Till your good is better
And your better's best. -Anon.
IF WE'RE STRIVING FOR PERFECTION,
WE'RE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
---
ž 1st 2.00 #1855 ž God's baud rate is ģ.
* Origin: After Five; BBS Elkhart In. 219-262-1370 10 gig (1:2285/100)
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SCOT BEAR
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 14 Feb 96 14:43:00
EID:9ffc 204e7560
> Part of his house caught fire, and his computer was one
> of the things damaged. No one was hurt, though, so he ought
> to be back soon.
SB>
SB> Sorry to hear that, Al! Thank goodness everyone is ok!
SB> My thoughts are with you...
SB> [You gotta lay of those cheap altar candles!] :)
Well, I was trying Asmodeus' religion. We had the naked virgin in the
pentagram, the knife, the candles at each point of the pentaram...
... You're twisted and sick; I like that in a person!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: STYX ALLUM
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 15 Feb 96 08:19:00
EID:351e 204f4260
SA> Lamar Alexander spoke in favor of limiting campaign spending,
SA> when he was being interviewed on "This Week with David Brinkley"
SA> last sunday. He's a conservative candidate for the presidency.
Alexander used to be governor here, and actually did a good job. Tennessee
governors tend to be excellent or horrible, but he was one of the better
ones, strong on building up education and yet fiscal responsibility. (We
HAVE to have a balanced budget, BTW, it's in the state constitution.)
Personally, if any of the Rebublicans win, I wish it would be him, or at
least have him as the vice-president on a Dole-Alexander ticket. (In all
honesty, my politics lean a little closer to George Rudinski and Karen's
than yours, but actually I will vote for anyone who I think will do a good
job.)
My sister used to babysit for Al Gore, BTW, when he was a reporter here.
It was the picking of Gore as vp that persauded me to support Clinton last
election. Gore, despite all the "wooden" jokes, is actually much smarter
and savvier than Clinton, and I would feel much better for the country if
it were Gore who was the presidential candidate. (I suspect he was
"persauded" to help the internet-gag act, and I really suspect on BOTH
Clinton and Gore's part is that, though Clinton signed it to make
political points, they are hoping the courts will overturn it.) Gore's
father was one of the few Democrats to buck Johnson to his face about the
Vietnam war, back when Gore, Sr., as a senator.
Before the picking of Gore, I was considering backing Bush. So I can go
either way. I just know from personal experience and the testimony of my
sister that Gore, at least, is one of the "good guys." And Alexander is
too, I believe. (Don't let the flannel shirt fool you, though. He's a
millionaire many times over, lost one election dressed in a suit, and
adopted this "folksy" image.)
Who will you be backing now that Gramm is pulling out? Just curious.
... Sure you can trust the goverment--just ask an Indian!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: POSTS
|Date: 15 Feb 96 08:44:00
EID:7cc6 204f4580
JP> While we're wondering,....
JP>
JP> I recently sent some posts that were BOUND to offend
JP> a lot of folks,.... I mean post that would have had
JP> heathens bashing me for years to come,....
JP>
JP> and not a peep have I heard,.....
JP> So,.... I'm thinking I must not be getting out
JP>
JP> let me know if you see this,...
I see it.
... Myth #1: The computer only does what you tell it.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: RE: SILLY FUNDY CLAIMS
|Date: 15 Feb 96 08:58:00
EID:e35d 204f4740
AS> Sure, let's try it. "I'm going to tell people I saw Jesus rise again.
AS> Maybe that'll make them believe in Jehovah! Of course, Jehovah did not
AS> approve of lying, and Jesus said the truth will make you free, but
AS> surely God will understand this once. Okay, guys, even if they torture
AS> you, whip you, even try to kill you, you are NEVER to let this slip
AS> your lips. All twelve of you. hey, maybe we can even rope another five
AS> hundred to agree...or spread the RUMOR of it, nobody'll check..." "Uh,
AS> Peter." "Yes, John?" "Don't you think if we claim Jesus rose from the
AS> dead, someone might check the tomb?" "There's that. We need to steal
AS> the body." (Utter silence.) "Peter?" "Yes, John?" "Let me get this
AS> straight. We are going to go against God's and Jesus' principles and
AS> tell a flat out LIE, and try to hoodwink thousands into believing in
AS> God on this incredible story. We are going to assume nobody is going
AS> to come back to Jerusalem to check any of the details. We're probably
AS> going to be tortured, imprisoned, perhaps even killed...but we can't
AS> EVER let it slip what's going on. Even when they are whipping us, or,
AS> say, crucifying us upside-down, or locking us in a cell with rats and
AS> moldy bread. You want us to do all this, on a fantastic LIE that most
AS> people will laugh at? And steal a body...a moldering, decaying,
AS> stinking dead body...to bolster this lie?" "Yes. And travel to distant
AS> ports of call spreading the lie, all without demanding money or
AS> anything." "Um. Pete?" "Yes, John?" "I'm outta here." (THe other ten
AS> disciples follow John's examples.) Peter. "But it WOULD work..."
AS> (Speaking to the empty room.)
JP> Well done.
Thanks.
JP> WBW, John
JP> The NT account,
JP> Jesus really rising from the dead,
JP> is the only plausible explanation.
True, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NT DOCUMENTS (for the most part) REPRESENT
ACTUAL HISTORY. Not necessarily the miracles, but the disciples dying or
being whipped for their assertions. That is why so many here try to cast
doubt on that (even though most things they believe about the first
century are based on far scantier historical materials than the
multiply-attested Gospels).
An excellent book that both me and Micheal Hardy have used arguments
from, time to time, is called WHO MOVED THE STONE, which makes one of the
best cases for an actual Resurrection around, much superior to some of
McDowell's arguments. I wished I could find an e-text copy to send to
Larry Sites after he was nice enough to send me his favorite book, FORGERY
IN CHRISTIANITY.
... The easiest way to solve a problem is to deny that it exists.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: THE UNOFFICIAL HOLYSMOKE
|Date: 15 Feb 96 09:03:00
EID:d437 204f4860
JH> Cola Marilyn Burge?
JH> What's next?
JH> Jesse Jones Kool-Aide?
JH> Al Schroeder Schnopps?
JH> Rice Beer?
Shaken, not stirred.
... What can you do at 3 AM? Psssttt - got a modem??
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: A TALE OF 2 CITIES...
|Date: 15 Feb 96 09:11:00
EID:1b2d 204f4960
AS> Or could it be the Hebrew word actually means
AS> "beings larger than insects with wings"?
JP> Or maybe actually means "flying critters" ?
A little more succinct than the way I put it, true.
AS> Every child grasps the similarity of winged
AS> creatures but has to be patiently told that a bat is not a bird, in
AS> the same fashion that a child groups all sea animals together as
AS> "fish" and it must be explained to them that dolphins and whales are
AS> not such. But of course, that is OUR grouping. When we classify, the
AS> classifications themselves are somewhat arbitrary. Some seem to defy
AS> them altogether, like the platypus, only to be later explained by
AS> further fine-tuning of the classifications. I think the ancient
AS> Hebrews (as probably did a lot of other ancient peoples) classed
AS> animals in large grouping by what they DID, not by their covering or
AS> their method of reproduction. Surely the ancient Hebrew scribes cannot
AS> be faulted for using words in a way that their PRIMARY audience, the
AS> ancient Hebrews understood, rather than our own classifications 3
AS> thousand years later. And to God, to whom all the web of life is one,
AS> it must amuse Him as much the way WE divide up life into neat little
AS> compartments as the ancient Hebrews' equally abitrary (although not
as
AS> systematic) classification. Notice in the list, the bats are mentioned
AS> LAST, as if the scribe is not sure where they fall, but lumped them
AS> with birds for lack of a better place to put them? The Hebrews had no
AS> word for "mammal" that we know of. That is OUR classification, not
AS> theirs.
JP>
JP> I do admire the patient way you explain things.
Thanks, John. One thing I'm pretty strong on is patience. (Which makes
this the PERFECT echo for me, right?)
... Entropy always wins.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: GRAMM
|Date: 15 Feb 96 09:27:00
EID:020c 204f4b60
MH> I don't especially want Gramm; I just disliked him less in person
MH> than I thought I would. The problem with the election this year is
MH> that there is nobody that I DO want among the candidates. I voted for
MH> Clinton in 92 and have been tremendously disappointed, so there's no
MH> way I can vote for him again. But among the R's, Dole is a windsock,
MH> blowing whichever way he thinks the voters want him to, and I can't
MH> vote for someone like that. Gramm and Forbes are both too focused on
MH> the economy, which is important but not the sole issue for the
MH> President to face. And none of the other Republicans seem to have a
MH> chance of winning. (Not that there are any among the also-rans that
I
MH> really like either.)
MH> Makes me want to move to Toronto or Grandville or some other foreign
MH> place.
For what it's worth...and this doesn't mean I'm voting for him...Lamar
Alexander was a halfway decent governor of Tennessee, strong on education
and reform, more socialistic in some of his programs than many
Republicans. He made a halfway decent showing in Iowa, coming in third.
He's smart, also. (Dole could do a Dole-Alexander ticket and build up his
appeal greatly.)
... If it's too good to be true, our taxes must be paying for it.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: APOSTATE
|Date: 15 Feb 96 14:06:00
EID:33f7 204f70c0
LB> If I was forced to accept the flood, the Garden of Eden, and yes, the
LB> details of Jesus's birth or toss the whole thing out, I too would be
LB> forced into the latter stance, because the only way to believe in the
LB> literal truth of those portions would be to undergo voluntary
LB> lobotomy. I am no longer even capable of faking such a belief, and
LB> I'm not going to ask God to make me stupid to accomplish it.
LB> ----------------------- snip --------------------------
JP> "....voluntary lobotomy" ".....stupid"
JP> LB basically declares Bible believers to be brainless.
JP> [------------------------]
AS> No;.... [---------------]
JP> She doesn't just disagree with ordinary bible believers.
JP> She publicly holds them in contempt.
AS> She is saying what it would be for HER to accept such;......
JP> Lynda is saying only the stupid believe Jesus was born of a
JP> virgin.
JP> [which she considers among the "details of Jesus's birth"]
Are you SURE? Could she perhaps be talking about the census, which is not
confirmed by any other source? Nor does that necessarily mean that she
considers others stupid for believing it, just herself.
JP> Anyone who tells me her above doesn't say that
JP> just shows me they are stupid or dishonest.
Or perhaps being honest about herself, and not necessarily speaking for
anyone else.
AS> ..... to someone who did not know as much about astromony,
AS> geology, and biology as Lynda, it would not entail such.
JP> IOW- In her opinion, It is understandable that the uneducated
JP> would believe the Bible. But an educated person who believes
JP> the Bible must be stupid/lobotomized.
Not at all; but one must recognize that every word is not to be taken
literally, any more than I am literally "the salt of the earth" in any but
a metaphorical sense.
JP> I expect that attitude out of avowed HEATHENS and apostates.
Or Someone who told others they followed the letter of the Law, but
without understanding.
JP> Maybe you can distinguish her attitude from that of a typical
JP> heathen, but I don't see any significant difference.
I certainly can. She does NOT say she does not believe in the divinity of
Jesus. As far as I can tell, she pretty much backs up the doctrinal creed,
the Apostles' Creed, but admits she has little evidence for same. But it
would be more to the point to ask HER about it.
JP> Now you've seen mine, and I've seen yours.
JP> Opinions, that is.
I have indeed.
AS> I do; remember how she blasted Maria for doing something that would
AS> drive others AWAY from Jesus' love? There she thundered and preached
AS> with the best of them, about driving others away from "her Savior's
AS> love". It was a very revealing moment. And spoke well of Lynda. Jesus
AS> said much the same thing to the Pharisees.
JP> Maria did nothing to give ANY CHRISTIAN grounds to trash
JP> her the way a heathen would be expected to do.
John, there are ways to approach people, and Maria seemed to have
alienated many of the women here (many of whom have come from abused
situations) by what she said about submitting to her husband so
completely. You and I both know that such words are NOT a blank check to
abuse one's wife, but that one must submit "unto each other"---put the
other's needs first.
Robert A. Heinlein gave one of the best definitions of love I ever
heard..."when someone else's happiness is essentail to your own". That
certainly sums up how I feel about Barb, and to a lesser extent, my kids.
(Where I must sometimes give them temporary unhappiness and not give in
to
unreasonable demands to better give them long-term happiness.) But many
of
the women here--Lynda, who stayed Christian, and Gwenny who did not (after
being raped repeatedly by her stepfather as a child, and abused by her
husband), and Katherine, and evidently Karen.
Many of the abusers try to justify their abuse on Biblical grounds. That
doesn't make what they say true, but it is a way for others to misuse
God's word.
And Lynda is every bit as mad about that sort of abuse of God's word as
YOU are about the Pope claiming to be Christ's vicar on Earth. And both
you and she are EQUALLY mad by what you see as the perverting of God's
word.
You two are more alike than you would admit.
JP> Your support of Lyndas' public, scornful and uncalled
JP> for trashing of a fellow avowed Christian is noted.
Read above. I simply said that her righteous anger against what she felt
Maria's misuse of God word was quite revealing and showed the sincerity
of
her Christian impulses. I did not say ANYTHING about who was right in the
Maria/Lynda exchanges.
JP> Apostates more effectively serve the Devil
JP> than avowed heathens do.
*Sigh* And then, is Lynda farther from your viewpoint than the Corinthians
were from Paul's. Whom he called "brother" and "sister" even though they
had fallen into all sorts of spiritual and fleshly traps?
... I hit my CTRL key, but I'm still not in control.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ASMODEUS
|Sub: RE: COUNTDOWN: ONE DAY LE
|Date: 15 Feb 96 15:19:00
EID:0b55 204f7a60
As> Get a life. I cant believe you waste your time writing to people who
As> almost entirely ignore you. I haven't been in this board's f-echo
As> system for days, and you're still writing me. as for the curse, you
As> have already witnessed its birth. Soon it will grow, like a plague.
As> Your anxiety and apprehension will only make it all the more powerful.
As> All I have done is stirred the hot ashes, you'll add the wood.
I wish you could have put it some OTHER way...
As>
As> BTW Have a nice Valentine's Day, heh-heh-heh.
I'm sure JJ is shaking in his boots, Asmodiddly.
... Necromancers put the FUN back in funerals!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: FUNDAMENTALIST ARE IN
|Date: 15 Feb 96 15:45:00
EID:09af 204f7da0
AS> But he instructed Peter, specifically, to "feed my lambs", to take
AS> care of Jesus' followers. And whose ring does the Pope have?
AS> No, I don't agree on the primacy of the Pope, either.
AS> Just as I do not believe in the DEMONIZATION of the Pope.
JP> Nothing in the middle of the road
JP> cept yellow stripes and road kill.
And too far OFF the road gets you nowhere. Fast.
JP> Milliions for centuries have been and are affected
JP> by the papacy.
JP>
JP> Nothing is more serious to a king than a "usurper."
Then surely, we can leave such judgement to Him?
JP> Christ is the rightful king of Christians.
Yes.
JP> The pope claims to be the king of Christians.
No. He claims to be Christ's vicar on Earth. A prime minister,perhaps. Or
an earthly governor. I think he is wrong. Yet that does not preclude me
respecting them when they try to enforced Christ's teachings.
JP> That creates a war over TRUTH that
JP> servants of Christ cannot ignore.
Unfortunately, if one sticks only to the NT, one finds little to guide him
or her in this case. We must use our own judgement.
JP> Servants of Christ will contend for the truth.
Agreed. Which is why I cannot take your JFK theory more seriously without
proof.
JP> Giving aid and comfort to the enemy
JP> is a recognized crime.
And declaring someone an enemy who is merely trying to interpret the Bible
in a way that makes sense to THEM is recognizable monomania.
JP> Modern 'ecumenical' protestantism is giving aid and
JP> comfort to the greatest institutional enemy on earth
JP> of Christ and His Church.
Where IS His Church? You put down the Catholics, certainly. The
Protestants, for cowtowing to them. Where IS the Church, John?
JP> If you believe the papacy is genuine, If you believe the papacy
JP> is really all it claims to be, then you should be a Roman
JP> Catholic and you should confess being a Roman Catholic.
AS> But I do not admit to any of those "beliefs".
AS> Indeed it is CONTRARY to my beliefs.
JP> Then you must believe the papacy is phoney.
No. I believe it is MISTAKEN. See the difference?
JP> Cause it has to be one or the other.
No. It doesn't. I can believe, for instance, that one can be a sincere
American and yet hold political beliefs which are sadly mistaken.
AS> But that doesn't mean I have to hate the guy or his followers.
JP> You are blind to the pertinent issue.
I don't think so.
JP> "The guy" claims to rule Jesus's Church.
He claims to lead the Catholics, JUST AS, say, my elders claim to lead my
church. Or the Council of Bishops rules the Episcopal church. And he
thinks he does it under Christ. Well, quite frankly, John, until Jesus
appears again, I am not as cocksure as you who is under His guidance and
who isn't.
JP> Millions take this claim seriously.
JP> You are not only refusing to contend for truth,
JP> you are also actively critical of those who do
JP> contend for truth.
I am not hating those who might be mistaken. I think on some points YOU
are mistaken, John. As you doubtless do of mine. Is that cause for hate?
JP> You are giving aid and comfort to an enemy of the truth
JP> of Jesus Christ. A major historic enemy.
And for centuries, the only place you could find the Word of God.
JP> "Israel's watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge;
JP> they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; .........." Is. 56:10
Hmmm. No, I am keeping watch. And not prejudging the time.
JP>
AS> The Dalai Lama of Tibetian buddhism, is an interesting, erudite man
AS> (his FREEDOM IN EXILE is fascinating] and I can admire him without
AS> admitting any spiritual superiority of his. Same with the Pope.
JP> The Dalai Lama [like every alternative to Christ religious leader]
JP> is an enemy of the truth of Jesus Christ, however,
JP> the Dalai Lama isn't claiming to rule Jesus's Church.
There is a difference between being a vicar, to being a spiritual leader,
and claiming to be the source of that religion.
JP> China sought to LIBERATE Tibet from a swarm of bloodsucking monks.
JP> Good for China.
And to abolish ANY religious belief? Would that also be good?
AS> But Jesus will judge that.
JP> Certainly.
Then let Him do so.
AS> Obvious errors you must address, like a person who
AS>uses the Bible to justify hate; other than that...
JP> You equate contending for truth with promoting "hate."
No; I am saying showing, quite frankly, a near monomaniacal bias, is.
JP> Thereby making yourself a friend of liars.
And Jesus ate with sinners. And specifically warned others against
judging...lest they be judged.
JP> That is, people who claim to believe in the NT Christ, yet
JP> demonstrate that they are really just man-pleasers who couldn't care
JP> less what the NT Christ teaches.
That is between me and Jesus, John.
AS> But Jesus ate with tax collectors, publicans, and sinners. He did not
AS> come to help the spiritually healthy, but the spiritually sick.
JP> Jesus adamantly contended against religious professionals
JP> who made a living by misrepresenting God.
He did indeed. Yet He also thought Nicodemus, a Pharisee, was not "far
from the kingdom of God". Joseph of Arithimea also seemed quite devout,
and a Pharisee. Could you be friends with a Catholic in the same sense
that Jesus was friends with Nicodemus?
JP>
JP> The Sadducees and the Pharisees were no more [and probably less]
JP> corrupt than the papay which is claiming to rule Jesus's Church.
And yet Jesus judged individuals to be not far from the kingdom of God,
even among the Pharisees.
JP> The papacy you give aid and comfort to.
I give aid and comfort to all.
As a Christian...that IS my job.
AS> I can disbelieve that claim yet still respect the individual.
JP> Just makes you a friend of the greatest enemy of Christians
JP> on earth. For your sake, I hope you get a breakthrough
JP> before the day you stand before Christ.
Quite frankly, John...I hope you do too.
JP> I'd hate to have to explain to Christ why I sought to
JP> persuade people to respect the papacy and why I contended
JP> against those who contended against the papacy.
I feel quite comfortable in explaining how I helped to put down hate and
mindless prejudice, John.
JP> The world demands an explanation of how millions and millions
JP> of people who claim to follow Christ [by identifying themselves
JP> as "Christian"] would come to fight and kill each other.
And you are certainly setting a fine example. I quite frankly would NOT
trust you near the Pope. Your hate is palpable.
JP> For centuries of wars in "Christendom."
And you would have stopped it...how?
JP>
JP> In two modern world wars just this century.
And the papacy was involved HOW in the first World War?
JP> And you defend the papacy.
I say they are mistaken in some issues, but I think the vast majority are
trying to find Christ. And that ALL of us fall short of Christ's ideals.
AS> Between 300 to 1500, papacy supporters were all you had,
AS> except for the Greek Orthodox.
JP>
JP> Your above is ridiculous. The papacy has millions of supporters.
300 and 1500 AD John. Not number of supporters. Dates.
JP> Every RC is a pope supporter, just by identifying as RC,
JP> and, every 'ecumenical' type protestant is a de facto
JP> pope supporter [usually specializing in trashing those
JP> who do contend for the truth in regard to the papacy].
And do you pray for them, at least?
JP> WBW, John
JP> ".....They strengthen the hands of evildoers....."
JP> They keep saying to those who despise me,
JP> 'The LORD says: You will have peace.
JP> 'And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts
JP> they say, 'No harm will come to you.'
JP> ==============================================================
JP> Concerning the prophets: My heart is broken within me; all my bones
JP> tremble. I am like a drunken man, like a man overcome by wine,
JP> because of the LORD and his holy words.
JP> The land is full of adulterers; because of the curse [Or these things>] the land lies parched [Or ] and the
JP> pastures in the desert are withered. The [prophets] follow an evil
JP> course and use their power unjustly. "Both prophet and priest are
JP> godless; even in my temple I find their wickedness,"declares the
JP> LORD.
JP> "Therefore their path will become slippery;
JP> they will be banished to darkness and there they will fall.
JP> I will bring disaster on them in the year they are punished,"
JP> declares the LORD. "Among the prophets of Samaria I saw this repulsive
JP> thing: They prophesied by Baal# and led my people Israel astray. And
JP> among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They
JP> commit adultery and live a lie.
JP> They strengthen the hands of evildoers,
JP> so that no one turns from his wickedness.
JP> They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like
JP> Gomorrah." Therefore, this is what the LORD Almighty says concerning
And some of us entreat the Lord to spare the sinners, as Lot and Abraham
did concerning Sodom and Gomorrah.
JP> the prophets: "I will make them eat bitter food and drink poisoned
JP> water, because from the prophets of Jerusalem ungodliness has spread
JP> throughout the land."
JP> This is what the LORD Almighty says:
JP> "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill
JP> you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not
JP> from the mouth of the LORD.
JP> They keep saying to those who despise me, 'The LORD says: You will
JP> have peace.'And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts
JP> they say, 'No harm will come to you.'
JP> But which of them has stood in the council of the LORD to see or to
JP> hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word?
JP> See, the storm of the LORD will burst out in wrath,
JP> a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked. Jer.
JP> 23:9-19
But I think it would be more wicked---to hate my brothers, or my
neighbors. "Father, forgive them...for they know not what they do."
... If you think you are confused, wait until I explain it.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: LYNDA GOES OVER...
|Date: 16 Feb 96 09:11:00
EID:433f 20504960
JP> It was SHE who first treated fellow
JP> avowed Christians with contempt.
AS> On the contrary, John; she has treated SOME with contempt.
JP> Obviously. Since I did NOT stipulate "ALL" avowed Christians.
JP> what's your "on the contrary" supposed to mean ?
Just that Jesus treated some fellow avowed Jews with contempt. For
misusing God's word.
AS> Some she has been unfailingly nice to.
AS> Isn't the brotherhood of Christians
AS> large enough to encompass a wide variety of viewpoints [?]
JP> Unfortunately, the brotherhood of some modern "christians"
JP> isn't wide enough to encompass people who contend the bible
JP> is true.
There's no room for respectful disagreement?
AS> .....such as many in the churches that Paul corrected,
AS> who went MUCH farther astray,
AS> whom he still addresses as "brothers"?
JP> Let me know when you find where Paul says it is stupid
JP> to believe God performed a scripturally described miracle
JP> like the flood.
Nowhere. But he DID say we see "though a glass darkly" now (or at the time
of his writing). He DID say we know in part, not the whole. And SEVERAL
places in the Bible say God CANNOT--not will not--CANNOT lie. Why would
God create a flood and then eliminate all evidence of it? Isn't that
misleading us? Either the flood was much more local, and the "world" was
used in the sense that Alexander used it, "There are no more worlds to
conquer" --not talking of other planets, but other cultures....OR it is
a
parable of God's judgement on mankind. EITHER is possible.
AS> If she is spending more time criticizing religious hypocrisy
AS> [as she sees it] than unbelievers, then certainly she is doing
AS> EXACTLY WHAT JESUS DID! Count the number of times He talks
AS> about unbelievers, compared to the number of times [? forgot
JP> your train of thought ?].......
JP> Noting hypocrisy is one thing. Contending it is stupid
JP> [sign of being lobotomized] to believe the Bible is something
JP> else.
But she does believe the Bible. She does not believe everything is
LITERAL. Though the Church is referred to the bride of Christ, I do not
believe we shall all be transformed into one conglomerate female to
literally wed Christ either.
AS> He mentions the hypocrisies of the Pharisees and the Sadduccees.
AS> And...quite FRANKLY, John...coming from someone who reguarly paints
AS> the largest group of "fellow avowed Christians" which is the CATHOLIC
AS> CHURCH, with less than complimentary colors [Well? Whether you think
AS> they are or not, they certainly AVOW themselves to be.] you better
AS> remove the four-by-four from your eye before you try to talk about
AS> the speck in hers.
JP> The Vatican/papacy is directly and legitimately comparable
JP> to the Pharisees and the Sadduccees.
Whom Jesus, despite His criticisms, showed some friendliness to
individauls in it, like Nicodemus.
JP>
JP> RC's do "avow" to be "Christian."
They do indeed. And ONLY Jesus has the right to judge who is and who is
not Christian.
JP> They also "avow" the pope is the RULER of all Christians.
Vicar or shepherd, rather. I think they are mistaken. That does not mean
that I think they are not trying to follow God's word.
JP> I will continue to ADAMANTLY and CONFIDENTLY before Christ
JP> ATTACK the false claims of the papacy,
JP> and,
JP> I will continue to ADAMANTLY and CONFIDENTLY before Christ
JP> make known that the Vatican is the Rev. described "G.W.."
JP> But,
JP> I've never specialized in attacking individual R.Catholics
JP> with personal slander.
Glad to hear it. Although the Pope is an individual Roman Catholic,
remember.
JP> Frankly, I'm more irritated by protestants who basically
JP> tell me they agree that the papal claims are untrue,
JP> but who act like they think the papal claims are true,....
JP> Demonstrating they don't care about how the papacy
JP> makes Christ look to a world that thinks "CHRISTians"
JP> created and conducted such activities as the Inquisitions.
Well, the thing is, John, it also sponsored the Knights Hospitalier, who
were one of the roots of the modern hospitals. It also sponsored immortal
art like the Sistine Chapel, or Handel's "messiah". Roger Bacon, a Roman
Catholic monk, first came up with the idea inherent in the scientific
method, which has eventually saved more lives lost in the Inquisition, the
Witchhunts, and the Crusades combined. Not excusing or condoning the last
three. But there have been good works done under the aegis of the papacy,
also.
JP> If you can understand a "Spong" wanting to "Rescue the Bible
JP> from Fundamentalist", then, you should be able to understand me
JP> RIGHTFULLY distancing Jesus from the creators of the Inquisitions.
Certainly. And again, I would much rather be in the average atheist's
shoes come Judgement Day than Torquemada's, who ran the Inquisition and
had thosuands killed in Jesus' name.
JP> You should be aiding me in this instead of aiding
JP> those who have created so much slander of Christ.
Did you know the Pope in the middle ages could have local bishops impose
a
"truce of God" that would forbid warfare during certain parts of the year,
so they wouldn't lose the crops and so cause a general famine? Did you
know in the Middle Ages one could find sanctuary from unjust punishment,
just by fleeing into a church?
No, I am not a Catholic. But I recognize some of the good that has been
done, as well as the bad.
AS> Maybe because it was her honest opinion? Maybe because her
AS> interpretation of the Bible--and that is all either of you have-
AS> -is diffferent from yours?
JP> Bascially,
JP> it's her "honest opinion" that people like me are
JP> stupid for believing the Bible,....
Untrue. There are simply some things she believes are metaphors and not
literally true, JUST LIKE YOU DO. (Witness our discussion on Revelations.)
Where you two differ is in what you consider metaphor. You two can
rationally discuss it without indulging in name-calling. Some things she
has said she would feel herself stupid for believing. She did not say
another would do so. If you think she is mistaken, address the issue and
try to refute it.
JP> and,
JP> it's my "honest opinion" that she thinks more like a heathen
JP> than a Christian.
Which I don't see at all.
JP> [and my above does reflect my thinking
JP> about "liberal" "christianity" in general]
Then don't think about the aggregate. Address the individual.
AS> If you WANTED to drive a believer into becoming an unbeliever,
AS> I can think of no better way to do so:
JP> I DO DESIRE that liberal, non-believer "christians"
JP> who despise Bible believing Christians would
JP> stop calling themself "Christian."
You will not get Lynda to renounce her Christianity, which she has shown
is quite precious to her, no matter what your desires. Again, remember who
Paul in the Corinthian chuch called "brothers" and "sisters" despite their
falling into both fleshly and spiritual errors.
JP> If one doesn't believe the Bible,
JP> then one should call oneself an "unbeliever."
Yet she has stated publicly that her belief in Jesus as her savior is
quite precious to her, so much that she publicly denounces fellow
Christians who she thinks is misusing God's word. She and you are not
unalike in temperament, John,
JP> She already proudly claims to be an unbeliever,
AS> Unfortunately, that is a lie.
JP> Your statement is a lie. She said there were stories
JP> in the Bible that not only did she not believe,
JP> but that she'd have to be made "stupid" to believe.
But you yourself have admitted that Revelations has some metaphorical
language. That--by implication implies you would think it "stupid" to
believe in its literalness.
AS> She doesn't believe every word of Scripture is the literal truth.
JP> What word of Scripture does she believe IS "the literal truth" ?
Ask her, not me. She believes Jesus is the Savior, I know that much.
JP> Claiming that Jesus being born of a virgin is just a "parable"
JP> or "metaphor" is just a liberal way of stating the NT is a lie.
There is no real reason to believe that Paul was aware of the virgin
birth. He makes no mention of it one way or the other. Does that make him
think the NT is a lie?
JP> Such people should just openly admit they are nonbelievers.
JP> Probably do them good to confess what they really believe.
John, in all honesty, she does more good with the unbelievers in this
forum trying to get them to see the good aspects of Christianity than you
or perhaps I do.
JP> Pretending to be something one is not must be quite a strain.
Pretending others are not who they avow to be must be, also.
AS> Well...there are a lot of us who think some things in the
AS> Bible are parable and metaphor, which does not detract
AS> from the ETERNAL TRUTH of their lesson.
JP> Certainly there is room for some difference of opinion.
Good.
JP> What we [at least I] are discussing now, is an evaluation
JP> of "christians" who feel compelled to PERSONALLY SLANDER and
JP> ATTACK other Christians for the "crime" of expressing belief
JP> in the Bible.
But are not YOU attacking LYNDA for her interpretation of the Bible?
JP> You think the prodigal son was a fictional character
JP> that Jesus invented to make a point ? Fine.
JP> I wouldn't bash you for that.
Okay.
JP> But IF you bash someone for expressing the belief
JP> that the prodigal son was a real person,
JP> THEN I will bash you for THAT.
She said it would be stupid for herself to believe such. Not that another
person is stupid for believing it.
JP> And if you bash someone for expressing belief
JP> that Jesus was literally born of a virgin,
JP> then I'll even more vigorously bash you.
But you notice I haven't.
AS> Unless you think there really WAS a prodigal
AS> son, exactly as Jesus described...?
JP> Probably been thousands of them.
Word for word? The younger brother, etc? Well, could be.
JP> I certainly don't feel led to declare anyone "stupid"
JP> for expressing the belief there "WAS a prodigal son,
JP> exactly as Jesus described."
Nor I. I think it unlikely, though.
AS> John, quite frankly, when Creationists [like the ICR] come on and try
AS> to twist scientific fact to fit their interpretation of the Bible,
AS> they are LYING for God...or their religion. As C.S. Lewis said,
AS> "Lying for your religious beliefs may help your religion.
AS> It certainly isn't helping God." See the difference?
JP> Bottom line- Did or did not God create the world ?
Of course. I have been one of the more vocal people on this echo
concerning that. BUT...do I believe that the world was created literally
in six days? No. "A thousand years is as a day, a day like a thousand
years" to the Lord.
JP> All I see is that "liberal" types are apparently embarrassed
JP> by people who contend the Bible is true.
No; or at least I am not, if you are including me among them. But I DO
love truth, and I do NOT think God lies...either by the Bible OR by the
wondrous nature He created.
JP> Which makes me ashamed of "liberal" types.
Understanding might be better spent.
AS> John, perhaps you would do better to ASK her if there
AS> is any scriptural basis in what she believes?
AS> I'm certain she has backing for everything she believes.
JP>
JP> To date, I've sent her several posts she has declined
JP> to respond to. When called to account and backed into
JP> a corner, she typically chooses to not respond,...
JP> thereby neither retracting nor explaining.
Hmmm. I must admit I haven't seen those, that I can remember, but then I
wasn't looking for them. Could you be swallowed up in the Fidonet troubles
that are afflicting me, perhaps? Ask her again.
JP> She could have avoided all this hassle just by posting back
JP> something to the effect that her initial bash of Maria
JP> was uncalled for [and it was uncalled for].
Again, ask her.
JP> Lynda, and a lot more people, are going to find out
JP> the hard way what "read what you sow" is all about.
"Reap what you sow"? Odd, I see her driving many here to a better respect
for some Christians. Can you say the same?
... No sense in being pessimistic--- it won't work anyway.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: PAGANI/WICCA RACISTS?
|Date: 16 Feb 96 10:36:00
EID:b3ec 20505480
KW> ('they'll think that we are satanists!' 'So what???') Or if Lorna
KW> Doones and Hi-C are acceptable for the Cakes and Wine. It's odd, but
KW> witch wars can erupt over the silliest things (*sniff!* She uses a
KW> drum with a PLASTIC head!!!).
JP> Ah, the trials and tribulations of the religoius.
I live in Nashville, where there is a copy of the Parthenon in our
Centennial Park. There was a gathering one night of Goddess-worshippers
there. Some were LITERALLY Athena worshippers, and argued for the reality
of Athena and by implication, Zeus, etc.
AS> That's what you GET for having all priests and no laity....
JP>
JP> Some might conclude that it's the pagans who believe in
JP> the "priesthood of all believers."
Quite frankly, I wonder what the ancient Wiccans would think of the
modern Wicca movement. I suspect that they would find it even more
unrecognizable than the first century church members would find modern
church services.
... A Female Klingon with PMS?..Run for your lives!!!!!!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ASMODEUS
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 16 Feb 96 10:41:00
EID:55cd 20505520
L> DW> JJ, he did have a message for you, though. Either teach Asmodeus
how
L> DW> to aim his curses, or stop hassling him about it :)
L>
L>
L> "Wrong Way Asmodeus" huh?
L>
As> Teach me how to *AIM* them? What does JJ know of throwing curses?
As> Anyway, in this instance I employed summoning to damage J.J. (take
As> another) Hitt. It only requires utmost concentration, and knowledge
to
As> employ the correct means for the job, and not much 'aiming'. ie.
As> summoning Metztli, for example, for the job would be met with much
As> unsuccess, unless I incorporated others to aid in the endeavor, in
As> which case Metztli would actually aid in the summons, and in working
As> the summons it would be entirely up to the entities to perform the
As> duty, and as of declaring the summons at end, one is done with it.
As> BTW, if this Al is a friend of JJ please give him my apology. It is
As> very likely he caught some slack of the whip as J.J. got lashed, so
to
As> speak. The devils accomplish their work in many ways, not choosing
As> only one path to accomplishing the will of the summoner. It is likely
As> that they also sought out to damage some of JJ's friends, in order
to
As> damage him emotionally, as well as performing that which I had wished
As> done. Even when one has great knowledge of them, and excellent oratory
As> capability, it is still quite possible to not be concise enough as
to
As> harm those who are not deserving. I believe this may be the case, as
I
As> had invoked Satan a second time in the closing, to help ensure the
As> cooperation of those I summoned, and to add a little strength. It is
As> quite possible that His Infernal Majesty was tired of it all, and just
As> struck the first opportunity he saw, to ensure some measure of
As> success. And if Al is no friend of JJ's, please give him my sympathy
As> for his loss anyway. I am quite sure that means as much as a million
As> dollars to a castaway, but please do so anyhow. It strikes me sad to
As> hear of any family's loss.
(Pounding floor.)
But I should have known Asmy could not have read any of the insults I sent
him, since he was in Michigan, where Jim Staal couldn't receive any
messages from me, etc. What a shame. He doesn't know what a pimply-faced
follower of Anton Levay I hold him.
FOR THE RECORD...I was simply using an old drier, and it was the next
major appliance to be replaced. Nothing supernatural required.
... Yeah.. but that's what the aliens WANT YOU TO BELIEVE!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: INTO.
|Date: 16 Feb 96 11:42:00
EID:52a1 20505d40
AS> True. But if a hundred predictions have been proven to fall through,
AS> you can't blame us about being a little skeptical of the hundred-and-first.
JP> I expect Bible literate avowed CHRISTIANS to exhibit an attitude
JP> easily distinguishable from the attitude of avowed HEATHENS.
Sure. And one of the main things that distinguish a Christian is charity
and love. (BTW, that still doesn't answer the question why we should
regard your prediction as more right than the hundred avowed Christian
predictions of when the end of the world would happen, which were WRONG.)
JP> I expect Bible literate CHRISTIANS to show that they understand
JP> [for instance]
JP> "Do not put out the Spirit's fire;
JP> do not treat prophecies with contempt.
JP> Test everything. Hold on to the good." 1Thess. 5:19-21
Indeed. TEST EVERYTHING. Including the predictions, do not be swayed by
he
who says, "Christ is here" and "Christ is there". And do not revile your
Christian brother. Hold to the good.
JP> I expect Bible literate CHRISTIANS to demonstrate
JP> they are familiar with and respect God's Revelation.
And God's people. Including those who do not believe entirely as you do.
JP> I expect Bible literate CHRISTIANS to AT LEAST show they
JP> understand why many Christians believe we are approaching
JP> the end of this world as we know it and believe that it will
JP> wrap up as per God's Revelation.
John, Jesus Himself said He didn't know the exact timing of such, but only
the Father. I understand why you might think of it, but perhaps I
appreciate a little better how MANY Bible scholars over the centuries
thought THEIR generation would be the last generation. And thought they
had reasons---much as you have reasons--as to why their geneation is the
last time.
You may be right. But we will see.
JP>
JP> I don't expect scorn from Bible literate CHRISTIANS.
I'm sure the Pharisees said much the same thing to Jesus.
About Torah literate Jews.
JP> [but I do expect scorn from apostates,
JP> like I expect apostates to aid the Vatican ]
You can expect what you like, John. Jesus thought the Samaritians were
wrong, but it didn't stop Him from speaking civally to a Samaritan woman,
or using a "good Samaritan" in a parable.
AS> Hal Lindsey's prophecies, that sort of thing?
JP> FOR DECADES, in books, and on radio and TV,
JP> a major prophetic teaching [from Lindsey and many
JP> other "big name" bible prophecy expounders]
JP> is that the "rapture" [instantaneous removal of all Christians
JP> from the earth] will occur BEFORE the "beast"s publicly rule.
Yes. And of course, there is some Biblical basis for believing that. I
really have no opinion one way or the other, but simply will wait on the
event.
JP> Because of this TV "big name" "pretribulation" indoctrination,
JP> MANY, perhaps MOST nominal "Christians" believe they will
JP> be removed from this world BEFORE the "beast"s publicly rule.
Um. No, I don't think the majority of Christians are into the rapture.
JP> They are going to fulfill the Scripture regarding
JP> "it will come in a time "unlooked for"" that you refer to.
Perhaps. But you don't know for sure, John.
JP> Cause they are going to be right here on earth when the "beast"s
JP> publicly RULE this world. That is, the "rapture" will not occur
JP> until AFTER the "beast"s rule and the "marking" has taken place.
Again, perhaps. Neither you or I know for sure, John. Only the Father. Not
the angels in Heaven. Only the Father.
AS> The important thing is to live every day as if it
AS> might be the last in Time, and the first in Eternity.
JP> The important thing is to heed Christ.
AS> Luke 17:22. "Then He said to His disciples, 'The time is coming when
AS> you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will
AS> not see it. Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not
AS> go running off after them. For the Son of Man in His day will be like
AS> the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the
AS> other." Luke 12:40, "You also must be ready, because the Son of Man
AS> will come at a time when you DO NOT EXPECT HIM." Matt 24:36."No one
AS> knows about that day or hour, NOT EVEN THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN, NOT EVEN
AS> THE SON, but only the Father." I'm not going to claim knowledge that
AS> Jesus HIMSELF admitted He didn't have here on Earth.
AS> I AM heeding Christ, John.
JP> Well, if you AM heeding Christ, and I AM heeding Christ,
JP> then we shouldn't have any problems making sense to each other.
Jesus and the Pharisees both thought they were following Moses' words.
Only One was right.
JP> Luke records some of what Jesus said to that generation
JP> in regard to the final days of THAT generation's world.
That's certainly one interpretation. That Jesus was referring to the fall
of Jerusalem. But that is merely your opinion.
JP>
JP> For OUR generation's final days, the most relevant
JP> written word from God is found in God's Revelation.
Hmmm. I must admit I think I see many statements from Jesus that refer to
His second coming which are relevant.
JP> Presently, you [and the rest of modern protestantism]
JP> are nearly totally blind to the meaning of chapters 17 & 18
JP> of God's Revelation. A key to identifying the final, supreme
JP> "beast", is correct identification of the "Great Whore."
Which I'm not sure you have identified correctly, in all frankness, John.
JP> That is-
JP> One who cannot or will not correctly identify the
JP> "Great Whore" [that is presently visible], will also not
JP> be able to correctly identify the final, supreme "beast".
Who will deceive the very elect. Granted. But surely, since so many have
claimed to have identified the beast over the centuries, surely the best
response is to live a good Christian life and let the end times take care
of itself. When Jesus comes again, it will be like lightning lighting up
things from horizon to horizon.
JP> Cause part of the identification of that "beast"
JP> depends on identification of the "Great Whore."
JP> [cause they are connected in Revelation chapter 17]
The end of the world will take care of itself, John. My job right now is
living, and living according to God's precepts.
JP> WBW, John
JP> Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel
JP> of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners,
JP> nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. Ps.
And shows chairty and love towards all. Including his brother. Including
his neighbor.
... Too many people confuse free speech with loose talk.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Jason Ballard
|To: All
|Sub: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 16 Feb 96 20:07:47
EID:c9fc 2050a0e0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7661
For all those who are of the name Pagan, those who defy the right of god
and and of heaven and of hell, those who believe in the Earth and those
who believe that it is the mother which gave us birth, stand together to
take what is rightfully ours. We were born pagans to the world, your god
killed our people, your christian ways plagued are nations and killed our
people so long ago, this I can not forgive or forget, your religious beliefs
make me sick. Religion is the hate of the world, people fight over stupid
wars and stupid gods that don't merely exist, only a vision to them, something
they can believe in that isn't really there fighting along with them, thousands
die over religious wars everyday, hate and unity has formed in churches,
religion has changed so drastically within the past hundred years who knows
what the truth and who knows whats a lie? Who follows a man who makes us
suffer in life, so many people, who are so worse off then you and I who
pray for forgiveness and pray to free and to live a healthy life, look at
all the sick and the dying does the world have forgiveness upon us, no,
we are not creatures under god, or of anyman we are natural living breathing
creatures like everyone else and like every animal, nature has created us
to live the earth to carry on our kind, our species, not to rise above nature,
and try to prove that man is superior to all, man has even tried to rise
above god himself! And your issues on religion don't change a thing to the
world, your churches invest money they say that benefits the poor which
is a load of crock, you put on stunts to fascinate people with your farsey,
and with your false indictions, you give your life to a lie, you lie to
yourselves, you can't believe in a god, don't let god take you by the hand,
you are who are and thats all you ever need to be, we are all equal we need
no god to lead us we have our hearts to show the way, we have changed from
our original selves, and believe me if your ancestors knew you know they'd
think your all insane fools.. Your ancestors once believed in Paganistic
ways, the beliefs of Greek Legends, Norse Mythology, Celtic legends, Indian
stories, all sorts of stories we've grown up with what makes them any different
from that of god? You say there is proof? The only proof to see is through
the words of another man, and words sometimes don't mean a thing.. I am
not driving you away from your beliefs I am truly only asking you to be
what you already are a living breathing creature, and don't follow in such
feeble minded ways. We were born pagans all in the beginning, then Olav
the great and the other christians killed our kind, killed your ancestors
family and told them to believe or you will die.. If I were alive back then
I would kill every christian that came upon me, I have spoken as well as
the other pagan believers, the earth is your home, its rivers and streams,
and your father was not god.. Your father and mother are the earth.. For
when we die, we will be reborn again, until then may we meet in the next
life...
Goth Walkers
--- Proboard/Fastecho/InterMail
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolungelical
|Date: 17 Feb 96 01:26:00
EID:10ce aa019a10
MSGID: 1:206/2720 1800c26f
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3123acc0
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> AB> The trouble is, spontaneous generation per se has never been
> AB> disproved. It was proven that spontaneous generation does not occur
> AB> in dead animal flesh, but that isn't what a theory of mundane origin
> AB> for life requires. As I understand it, recent research has indicated
> AB> that RNA can catalyze the formation of other RNA. Thus, all that
> AB> would be required for life to appear would be a self-replicating
RNA
> AB> strand. DNA and proteins would be later mutations, in accord with
> AB> evolution. This is entirely consistent with the data that spontaneous
> AB> generation isn't going on these days, because matter which would
be
> AB> useful for producing such RNA is prone to being immediately snatched
> AB> up by one of the much more highly evolved lifeforms that are around
> AB> these days. In other words, George Wald didn't have a clue (assuming
> AB> you're quoting him accurately).
> I did quote him correctly. A problem you wouldn't
> have since you quote
> no one in your refutation. Then you suggest this
> man who won a science
> nobel peace prize hasn't a clue, but you do? What
> credentials do you have?
I was awarded a master's degree in philosophy by UC Santa Barbara in 1995,
28 years after Wald got his Nobel prize. I'm also at present a doctoral
candidate in philosophy at that same institution. Neither of these credentials
are particularly relevant to the issue at hand, but then neither is Wald's
Nobel prize. The research on RNA was only in the past few years, which
is why I draw your attention to the age of Wald's Nobel prize. If memory
serves, I encountered the above facts in a class on the philosophy of science
at the University of Minnesota (the Twin Cities campus; that's where I spent
my undergraduate days, so I have a B.A. in philosophy from there if you
want to count all my credentials), which was taught by Ken Waters, who was
at the time an assistant professor. I don't think he'd have gotten tenure
yet, but I also don't think it's in doubt that he'll get it when the issue
comes up to be decided. He obviously has a PhD, in any event, and philosophy
of biology is one of his specialties.
Aaron Boyden, B.A., M.A., C.Phil
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 17 Feb 96 01:36:01
EID:10ce aa019a11
MSGID: 1:206/2720 1800c270
REPLY: 1:352/266 31240DA3
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> FB> 4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM
> FB> 4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
> etc. How can I obtain all of these argumentation
> fomats. They are by the way GREAT!
> Thanks.
Sorry to break in, but I'd recommend any good introductory logic or critical
thinking text for this sort of thing. Say, Copi and Cohen's _Introduction
to Logic_, or Francis Dauer's _Critical Thinking_. I'm biased toward the
latter as Francis is my dissertation supervisor and a generally neat guy.
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: information
|Date: 17 Feb 96 01:40:02
EID:10ce aa019a12
MSGID: 1:206/2720 1800c271
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 623f1b78
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> Children, should not be allowed to watch porn. It is
> the responsibility of the parents to see to this if
> they feel the need is there. I am in favor of making
> electronic devices available but not mandatory in
> these cases.
Out of curiosity, why shouldn't children be allowed to watch porn? Agreed
that the parents should probably be able to control this if they wish, but
you seem to imply that they have the duty, not only the right, to police
their children in this respect. Why, exactly? I seem to recall having
found a bit of porn in my youth, through various lucky chances, and I haven't
noticed it having done me any particular harm.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: CENSUS
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:08:00
EID:ea5c 20509100
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89260E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 12:17, Hector Plasmic got back to Dan Ceppa
MH>> How do you know? Were you there? Granted, there was not an actual
MH>> star in the literal sense. But could an omnipotent God not have
MH>> created a point of light -- which people of the time would describe
as
DC> as well as many other groups in the middle east. Strange, they
DC> fail to mention that "point of light".
HP> ROFL! And Mikey wonders why he's called a fundy. He happens to be
a
HP> literalist, as his clinging to every detail of this silly virgin birth
HP> myth demonstrates.
He's slowly discarding some of them, at times grudingly. Yet, he
has to cling to some literal meaning, as that's the only way his
house of cards can stand. Thing is, the mortar used is having
to believe literally. It's like trying to use a flour/water glue
and have it stand up in a rainstorm.
... "Suppose I made an analogy that wasn't debunked?" Wished by M Hardy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Epilepsy
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:31:00
EID:ef3c 205093e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89260E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-14-96 13:03, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> I have a friend who's child has epilepsy. He's 4 yrs old and
DM> The closest thing on this BBS is a national cerebral
DM> palsy echo, which is at least somewhat related. You might
I'll try checking on that locally. If not, my sysop's pretty good
at adding new areas.
DM> try getting it. Or if you would like me to post a message
DM> there inquiring about an epilepsy echo, let me know.
I may ask you to do that, but let's see what else I can find on
this end.
Thanks for the help!
... Siht, gotta rnu -- I kneed to mkae some tyope s - M. Glodberg
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Evolungelicals
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:33:00
EID:2541 20509420
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89260E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-14-96 07:50, David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa
AM>> I answered the question to my satisfaction.
DW>> asked the question. Not only have you not answered it to my
DC> Whatever you do, do not hold you breath on a direct answer from
DC> Andy!
DW> gee, I wish someone had told me earlier... :)
Look at it this way... Give you practice making macros!
... Explaining science to a fundy is like spitting on a fish.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Fundamentalists R Us
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:35:00
EID:5f48 20509460
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89260E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-14-96 07:52, David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa
DW>> + Origin: TRAVEL ONLINE / ST. LOUIS ONLINE - (314) 561-4956
DW> The putz seems to have gotten his problems straightened out, but let
DW> me know if you see any more messages from me originating from that
Nothing this packet, but it wasa small one. My FIDO feed has been
lost for 2 days or so.
I think it was Judith that also had messages going through that BBS.
... "all 'true Christians' die stupid.": Styx
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:37:00
EID:8d0f 205094a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89260E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-14-96 13:31, Norbert Sykes got back to J.j. Hitt
NS> ... Solomon had 200 wives & 700 cucumbers. -- Richard Lederer
OOC, is that an actual quote of a serious message? Or was it
an aside? Or, is itjust a bit of silly biblical humor?
... Please, God, save me from some of your followers!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andy Soell
|Sub: Hello, all!
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:38:00
EID:dd26 205094c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89260E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-13-96 22:23, Andy Soell got back to All
AS> least what I've read) that christians are stupid lazy people who are
AS> out of touch with the world and have closed their minds....mind if I
AS> ask why? Again, I just want to say now that as long as you at lea
AS> -!- GOMail v2.0 [94-0607]
AS> ! Origin: Jesus and Me BBS, Gahanna, Ohio (614)476-9855 (1:226/860)
Going to finish your message, or are you too lazy?
... I don't have the solution but I admire the problem.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Hector Plasmic
|Sub: Re: Staal won't drink it
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:47:00
EID:d768 205095e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89260E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 12:21, Hector Plasmic got back to Dan Ceppa
KM>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
DC> Why not? Is he so weak of character that he'd succumb to the
DC> temptation?
HP> You shall not tempt Mickey Mouse, either. Fictional characters are
HP> "Mickey, I got Minnie here, she's ready to go and she wants it, and
if
HP> you don't show up in five minutes I'm gonna give it to her..."
That's because he has already left her. You probably didn't know
it, as it was hushed up. Minnie seems to have a mental problem
that Mickey could not put up with. It's true!
Turns out the Minnie was fucking Goofy.....
... "Bother," said Pooh, as he filmed Eeyore and the Norwegian starlet.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Whooping Crane tastes
|Date: 16 Feb 96 18:49:00
EID:4a33 20509620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89260E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-15-96 02:30, Sue Alexander got back to Dan Ceppa
HP> Now, Sue, everyone knows that human skin is suitable only for book
DC> Just how long did it take for you to forget the example that
DC> Staal provided us with? He wrapped shit with his.
SA> However, not very efficiently. It kept oozing through the skin
SA> at his fingertips and into the messages he wrote. I would not suggest
SA> it f