God Damned Fundies!

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  more babbling email+
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:23
EID:8af5 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492505
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> Anything I got which I considered junk email I would consider
AS>> to be even LESS welcome to others. And would feel they would
AS>> blame me for spreading it. A thoroughly logical position.

RC> How unimaginative. Don't you know that manure does have value,
RC> when recycled properly? Since your junk BEGAN in the echo,
RC> and contained nothing but what you normally ost in the echo, it
RC> BELONGED back in the echo. Ashes to ashes; feces to fertilizer.

AS> The circle of life...
AS> Or laugh.

Quite so. That's exactly why your literary manure was recycled.


AS>> You did not return the email to my systems administrator
AS>> with a note "take care of it", did you?

RC> Why would I want to pester your postmaster with such bilge?

AS>

RC> Would it be welcome outside of HolySmoke?

AS>

RC> No, what I did was far more effective.
RC> On the other hand, I could send you all the email I like, which
RC> contains anything whatsoever, and you say that you would never
RC> post any of it.

AS> Yes.

Would you show it to your psychiatrist? Even if she thought it would
be beneficial for your recovery, under doctor-patient confidentiality?


RC> What do you do when you try to respond to a postmaster, but the
RC> originating address doesn't exist?

AS> ??? Respond to WHAT from a postmaster? And which address?
AS> The address for a postmaster or some other individual?
AS> DO try to make yourself a little more clear, won't you?

I don't think you would really want that.

LOL!


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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  nothing much
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:24
EID:c369 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492506
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> And my interest...in either...is exactly zero.

RC> So what impelled you to spread misinformation about a subject that
RC> does not interest you in the least? Just on general principles?

AS> Idle banter. Your excuse?

Correcting your misinformation in case there are new lurkers who are
not yet aware of your reknowned unreliability in matters of fact.


AS> I am not oblidged to answer baseless innuendo.

The misinformation consisted of your two faulty definitions, which
I subsequently corrected.

You might at least have thanked me.


RC> You really don't take correction very well, do you, Al?

AS> Not from someone who gets off on it, no.

Not from anyone, judging by your behavior here in the echo.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  the Good and Salty Lord
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:25
EID:0584 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492507
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC>> 100% natural, and spook-free -- Guaranteed!

AS>> Obviously I will need to look at the fine print
AS>> of that guarentee, and see who backs it...do you
AS>> come with a money-back guarentee?

RC> You couldn't afford me.

AS> Doubtless. Those fumigation bills are enormous, they tell me.

If you need to dispose of the bats in your belfrey, perhaps you'd
best consult that psychiatrist.

Or...

del c:\belfrey\*.bat


* SLMR 2.1a * 

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* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  waiting, still
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:26
EID:160a 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492508
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> I was laughing at your bizarre attribution of Platonism to _me_.

AS> Then do elucidate your position. In what sense are numbers
AS> immaterial "things" rather than labels we attach to things,
AS> since that was your assertion. Or did you misstate?

Since that was not my assertion, you are the one making yet another
misrepresentation, Al.

My position is that of a mathematical Formalist, with perhaps some
vaguely Intuitionist leanings. For further information, you'll
not likely find a better source than Abraham Robinson's *Formalism 64*,
found in the book, _Logic, Methodology, and Philosophy of Science_
(edited by Y. Bar-Hillel).

Representatives of the Platonist position -- like Rudy Rucker, Roger
Penrose, and John Barrow -- are still interesting to read, however.


AS> Well, then, Gumby, you want to make it a little clearer
AS> and try to actually say what you mean?

Stop making me laugh with your funny misrepresentations, first, please!

If you have a specific question, Al, then feel free to ask it.


AS> by calling numbers immterial "things" you put them in the same
AS> category as, say, "souls".

ROFL! So is humor a material thing, or an immaterial thing, Al?
Please do yourself a favor and get a decent secular education.

Your turn, Pokey.


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* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARK KIMES
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:27
EID:f442 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492509
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Quantum Bait Boy

JB> Cantor demonstrated (I've read one about him, too), many ways of
JB> being meddled with, but even Cantor could not at last escape the
JB> conclusion there had to be a sort of top-level infinity.

MK> Did he add one to it?  :-)

(LOL!) Brawley is certainly full of shit, because Cantor himself proved
that there is no largest infinity.

The proof involves power sets rather than addition, though. :-)


* SLMR 2.1a * 

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* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   NICK RAVENWOOD
|Sub:  Becke, slave to satan
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:28
EID:8870 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250a
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Lynda Bustilloz

LB> Oh, look. You're back. Done killing yourself?

NR> That was over long ago.  There are many others I would rather
NR> see dead than myself.  That's ok though, seeing people suffer
NR> through life is joy enough.

...Jesus?...

Jesus? Is that you?


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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub:  dropping of names
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:29
EID:8569 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250b
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB>> HEY, you left out Marilyn. And the 3 Harpies. And....
RC>  How shall I ever make up for the oversight?

JB> Chocolate works. In this case, nothing less than Godiva. 

We shall see.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARILYN BURGE
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:30
EID:91a7 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250c
TID: GE/2 1.2
MB> But, were there also only a pair (or seven, depending on which
MB> version you want to go with) of each and every creature
MB> immediately following the flood? Now. YOU tell ME where all those
MB> souls came from to inhabit nearly 6 billion people only about
MB> 6,000 years later!

Mix-and-match mythology can be fun!

I suppose it depends on how long souls can "hang out" wherever it
is they're supposed to be between incarnations.

Or whether they're limited to a single planet.

Then you might even have a single soul that travels through both
space and time, weaving its way in and out to be everyone who ever
is, was, and will be.


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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  the real world
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:31
EID:a049 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250d
TID: GE/2 1.2
about: Al Schroeder

RC> And you say that you read _Blind Watchmaker_? If so, why
RC> didn't you learn anything from it?

DW> In a previous message, you say:

RC> Don't confuse him with the facts. If it doesn't match
RC> his dogmatic aplogetics, then he will not listen --
RC> the realities of the situation are nothing compared to
RC> his need for propping up his sadistic dogma.

DW> Where did you pick up this habit of answering your own
DW> questions before you ask them?

Too many proofs by mathematical induction?


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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID RAGLAND
|Sub:  Wonder Woman Comics win
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:32
EID:4f67 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250e
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Fred Rice

DR> You have run to arms of atheism in order to avoid submitting
DR> to the will of the Almighty.

Fess up, David -- you've been using pepper again, haven't you?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

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* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   KEN YOUNG
|Sub:  Rewriting the truth
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:33
EID:7750 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250f
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> You think everyone needs to use the King James, perhaps?
AS> How fundy of you.

KY> Well, it is the most accurate version, after all..

ROFL!

Al should be happy you're here to make him look like a comparative
genius.


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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   KEN YOUNG
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:34
EID:61d9 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492510
TID: GE/2 1.2
KY> Maybe if we came back to God, crops would do better..

No one could possibly be this stupid! LOL!


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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   PAUL DAVIS
|Sub:  silly brit stuff
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:01
EID:7d8f 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba2222f
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> No, it follows logically from the universe including, by definition,
RC> all that exists. Thus, if a god exists, it is in the universe.

PD> So, by that logic, if you build a bike, you are the bike right?

Is a bike defined as "all that exists?"


PD>> Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
RC> Bourbon or Scotch, which for you?

PD> Ok, you see no difference.

ROFL!

Lay off the pepper, silly Brit. It's making you sinful.


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* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   BECKE BOYER
|Sub:  ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:02
EID:74aa 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22230
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> Look, I might feel a tug on my pants, and look down and see
AS> a toddler. He might make a request...

AS> So sometimes I may refuse, and seem cruel, but really be working
AS> for the good of the toddler.

BB> Bad analogy, Al. The toddler gets a concrete response either way.
BB> Either you play ring-around-the-rosie with him or you tell him
BB> no. God doesn't answer back--ever.

And if the toddler is tugging on Al's pants because she got stuck
in an ant hill, and the ants are about to have a slow feast, then
would Al stand and watch and do nothing because that's "really
working for the good of the toddler?"

Perhaps he could come up with an apologetic argument for that cruelty.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

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* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   PAUL DAVIS
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:03
EID:704f 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22231
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB> Uh, as far as I can see, math doesn't work at all without zero.
JB> You get to 9 and there's nowhere else to go.

PD> Try using base 9.

So you get as far as eight.
Now how do you represent nine in base nine?


Silly Brit, didn't you learn maths over there in Limeyland?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   KAREN DAVIS
|Sub:  Naked Pagan Rituals
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:04
EID:92b9 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22232
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Paul Davis

PD> So what do you call someone who has no stance for or against
PD> religion and someone who actively debunks it?

KD> The debunking is not the issue. I firmly believe people can
KD> believe what they please, but I will debunk religious statements
KD> when I have the opportunity. That's not antitheist.

It's anti-bullshit.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   ROGER HUNTER
|Sub:  HUMOR THE FUNDY FOOLS
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:05
EID:379f 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22233
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> Hmmm. While you are dreaming, you think to yourself, "Gee, those
AS> people are changing identities. This must be a dream?" SUUURE
AS> you do, Robert.

RH> He may well do so. I have. It's called "lucid dreaming".

Good luck with Al the Supposedly Superknowledgeable.



This is my week for creating handy acronyms. I got a good start
quite by accident while speaking to the Humanists of Florida
statewide board of directors meeting yesterday. Now I can hardly
wait for the upcoming Humanist/Atheist convention!

I am looking forward to the wonderful and much anticipated fun.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   RONALD VASS
|Sub:  native americans
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:06
EID:4726 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22234
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW>> While fire is the primary requirement for technology,
RC>> Are you sure about that?

DC> I have to agree with David on that point.  Though it does
DC> not ensure that a technology will develop, it is the basis
DC> of all technology, FMPOV.

RC> Do you need to be able to harness fire in order to use a spear?

RV> Nope. Fire does work good to harden a wood spear point though.

Indeed, the use and control of fire was a spectacular advance for
early human technology.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   RONALD VASS
|Sub:  fucked up priorities
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:07
EID:af9c 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22235
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> The girl who was not raped grows up to enjoy putting red-shot
AS> branding irons on people.

RV> Here Al maybe is trying to explain to the world, why priest
RV> rape the young. It's for their beterment.

According to Al, rape is for the betterment of the victims and
for the betterment of society as a whole.

In his knee-jerk defense of an indefensible dogma, he reveals just
how fucked up religious belief can make a person. And remember,
for every Al who is just all talk, there are religious believers
around who would put such sick notions into ACTION.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  Most Read Book
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:08
EID:6b97 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22236
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> I recently finished reading _The Godless Constitution: The Case
DW> Against Religious Correctness_ (ISBN 0393039617).

Sounds like an excellent pick for a book discussion group. Danke!


DW> Oddly enough, the fundies in late 18th century America agreed
DW> with you - they also felt that the Constitution was a godless
DW> document. I wonder when they collectively changed their minds?

It was a PR move.

Traditional fundy ignorance also made its contribution to the general
belief, once the move had been made.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  native americans
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:09
EID:6ef7 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22237
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> I was rather thinking of technology utilized before the
RC> harnessing of fire (thus eliminating fire altogether from
RC> a list of _requirements_).

RC> Move it instead to a list of technological advances (early
RC> ones or important ones or whatever you like) for my nitpicking
RC> to cease.

DW> I'm not sure I can do that. I don't consider *simple* tool
DW> use (whether it be pointy sticks as spears by humans, or bent
DW> twigs by monkeys as termite gathering tools) as technology.

So you call simple technologies by another name.

How would you treat examples of *complex* technology that do not
depend whatsoever on fire? Would you still say fire's a requirement?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  dos internet
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:10
EID:a3ff 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22238
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> Someone here was recently talking about accessing the
DW> Internet with DOS.

DW> I stumbled upon the following URL that might be of help:
DW> http://www.fdisk.com/doslynx/

Well, they'll first need a TCP/IP program to establish connectivity
to begin with before being able to use that text-based web browser
(except with their own local HTML files).

For accessing the Internet, you could call the TCP/IP program a
requirement, even.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Our Daily Bread
|Date: 05 Feb 97  00:33:30
EID:ac64 22450420
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f84a3b
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Sue Alexander <=-


SA>  RS> Arrrrgh!  George Mooth SPEAKS!  I made him speak!  Woooowooowoooo!
SA>  RS> What prize do I win, fellow HolySmokers?

SA>      Congratulations on the achievement, but I must tell you that it
has
SA> happened before.  Right here, in fact.  I think he just wanted to let
us
SA> all wait in antici...pation of this very rare sighting.  Me, I'd rather
SA> be burning (ah, make that baking) cookies.  ;)

RS> Who got his scalp last time?

If I remember correctly, I did.  But you got him to do it more
often, which is very worthy of note!!

Sue

... We are NOT surrounded, we're in a target-rich environment!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  01:01:10
EID:3e1d 22450820
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f84a3c
-=> Quoting Jonathan Fingas to David Worrell <=-

JF>> You certainly don't have any proof that Jesus DIDN'T turn water
JF>> into wine, feed 5000 with a lone basket of food, or walk on
JF>> water.
DW>> You don't have any proof that I do not have an IOU,
DW>> signed by you, for $100,000. Present your proof, or pay
DW>> up.

DW>> The burden of proof lies upon the maker of the positive claim,
DW>> moron.

JF>   Yes, but can you prove that you do have an IOU?  Guess not, hmm.

DW> Yes, but can you prove that Jesus did turn water into 
DW> wine? Guess not, hmm.

JF> But if I can't prove my case, then certainly you can't prove yours
JF> either.  Now try and give me something that will work for BOTH of us.


What would work for the both of you is for each of you to provide
evidence for your claim...for David to produce the IOU for inspection,
and for you to provide evidence that Jesus could have turned water into
wine.  Got any evidence (other than the bible, which is a doubtful
source)?

DW> Idiot.

JF> By the way, personal attacks can get you kicked out of this forum,
JF> so I'd suggest you come up with something other than lame
JF> name-calling. 

You had better check where you are trying to post, then, as I think
you must be thinking you are in another area.  This is Holysmoke, with
Styx Allum as the e-listed moderator.  He generally does not give a damn
if people name-call here.  When you are listed as the moderator of this
echo you regulate language all you want...until then, LEAVE IT TO STYX!!

JF> The Bible is the only thing we have for proof, and I'm content to
JF> believe it.

Just goes to show your content...

DW> Because you're a moron.

JF> More personal, unfounded attacks.  I wouldn't be surprised if my
JF> message doesn't get through, since you're probably going to lose
JF> access to this forum. 

It got through to me just fine, and I expect to see much more from
David.  If you keep trying to usurp Styx's moderator powers here,
however, he may become annoyed with you.  It is not good to annoy
moderators.

Sue

... If he was a car, all of his idiot lights would be now be flashing.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  01:12:18
EID:8816 22450980
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f84a3d
-=> Quoting Jonathan Fingas to Judith Bandsma <=-

JF> Whereas I have only wanted to scream at people like you, who
JF> automatically brand people and jump into arguments for no other reason
JF> than to work out their anger. 
JB> It's YOU who needs to go back and read the bible, little boy.

JB> Now...FUCK OFF, ASSHOLE.

JB> There, that's better.

JF> Not really.  Swearing shows a small vocabulary and poor taste.

At least he did not say that swearing is not "lady-like"!

Sue


... He appears to be suffering from Clue Deficiency Disorder.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  How to Attract Men (LOL!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  02:57:50
EID:9b54 22451720
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8a
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to Joe Shedlock <=-

DR> P.S. What's wrong with Melissa Etheridge's hairdo?!
JS> It is very much the "before" in the "before/after" makeover 
JS> category.  It is part of an over all "look" that says 
JS> something about her interest in attracting men.

RS> Even though she's gay?

That says even more about her interest in attracting men!  

Sue

... Reality? Yeah . . I sorta remember that . . .
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Convention on the Rights of the Child
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:02:47
EID:a097 22451840
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8b
-=> Quoting Anthony Grigor-Scott to Laurie Appleton <=-

AG> Dear Laurie Appleton,

AG> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

LA>> The delusion that small changes accumulate was
LA>> debunked in an Historical Conference of leading
LA>> evolutionists in 1980. Didn't you know about that?

AGS> Thanks for that. I was planning to mention it on next Sunday's
AGS> national broadcast (1:00pm Eastern Summer Time via ComRadSat).

AG> Here is a transcript:-

(deleted...I couldn't take another round of it)

AG> -!- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
AG>  ! Origin: Bible Believers BBS * West Ryde * 61-2-9809-3723!
AG> (3:711/933)

Rod-
If you ever needed a reason to get out of the country, this could
very well be it!     

Sue

... "Initiating `Getting-The-Hell-Outta-Here' Maneuver..." --Lennier
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  execute her ?
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:13:18
EID:589a 224519a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8c
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to Sue Alexander <=-

js> question marks, and not periods. Call it trolling if you
js> like, but I intended it to merely drive home my point that
js> he was BS-ing about his lack of knowledge of pagan divorces.
mm> But Jim, you just MADE Glenn's point about pagan divorces
mm> (that they are scarce, hardly in existence, or whatever,
mm> and certainly not sitting on his doorstep).
mm> Gwenny was no pagan when she got divorced from her first
mm> husband. She was a Mormon. Ergo, NO PAGAN DIVORCE.
SA> T'was pretty easy to understand, wasn't it??  I think that 
SA> Jim was just looking at it through the mist of what he 
SA> WANTED to see, and jumped on the point when he saw a 
SA> chance.  He tried to deny that he even said it at all, but
SA> I wouldn't let him get away with it....

RS> Or, clueless dunce that he is, he considers Mormons to be
RS> Pagans . . . 

It wasn't so simple.  He knew he was trolling, said at the time he
was trolling (admittedly not in those words), and yet later denied
saying it at all.  Typical Jimbo behavior.  And he says he is not
rude.....yeah, right. 

Sue

... I'd invite Jesus into my heart, but my blood needs the room.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  How to Attract Men
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:23:18
EID:d4d9 22451ae0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8d
-=> Quoting Dave Hamilton to Damien Wellman <=-

DW>  Which is why, of course, we need to start selling red shirts to
DW> selected  fundies. (Hey, Jimbo! Wanna new shirt?)

DH> To replace that one with the target on it?

Just beam him down with Jim Kirk, and the red shirt is all the
target you need!

Sue



... Star Trek VII:  The Search for Kirk's Toupee.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Paul Davis
|Sub:  Believer
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:30:31
EID:21c1 22451bc0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8e
-=> Quoting Paul Davis to Joe Shedlock <=-

ME> There's a big difference between not wanting to have kids and not
ME> being able to. You choose not to have children. Homosexuals can't
ME> have children, no matter what hole they put it in.

JS>    Melissa Etheridge and her lover seem to be contradicting your
JS>    assertion.

PD> Is Melissa Etheridge a man then? It's quite obvious what is being
PD> implied by the above statement but you choose to be obtuse just the
PD> same, why? 

Does Melissa sound like a male name?  How you find this "implied"
by the statement is a complete mystery to me...unless you are clueless
as to the current state of reproductive technology. 

Sue



... "Rimmer, sir, you are a Smeghead." -- Kryten
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  T
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:49:11
EID:df9c 22451e20
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8f
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Ronald Vass <=-

AS> Do I pay her royalties in chocolate?

RV> If you don't want the feel of the cat of nine tails licking your
RV> ass, it may be a good idea. Brit/Dutch chocolate is the better way.

AS> Thanks for the recommendation. My problem is if I buy any, it will
AS> be claimed by my wife long before I could send it to Lynda.

There are stores that will send packages directly, Al.  Probably
even good chocolate...

Sue

... "Dr. Scott!" "Janet!" "Brad!" "Rocky!" "Bullwinkle!"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:54:30
EID:3e1d 22451ec0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a90
-=> Quoting Jonathan Fingas to David Worrell <=-

DW> Your say-so doesn't cut it little man. Give references.

JF> So of course, when I actually DO give evidence, he refutes it.  A
JF> little hypocritical! And in case you need to know, all those were
JF> from a long TV special on real-life miracles on TLC.  A little syrupy,
JF> but also a little hard to deny, since they show before/after pictures
JF> (in the case of that swollen leg thing), and talk to the doctors and
JF> scientists who couldn't explain the given miracle. 

Do you always believe what you see on television?

Sue


... Dragons aren't extinct, they've just learned to hide real well.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 04 Feb 97  12:50:00
EID:f82c 22446640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 8458063f
DR>MGIt's wonderful that you believe this nonsense.  do you have any evidence
DR>for
DR>MGit?

DR>   Why, yes.  As a matter of fact, I do. ;)  Look to your own evidence
first
DR>though, ok?  Specifically, look at why _you_ believe God exists and let's
see
DR>how it compares to mine.  Don't bother telling me you _don't_ believe.
I
DR>won't believe you.  I don't believe "anyone" who says this.  I believe
they
DR>are just being rebellious.

How wonderful that you've been given the power to 'believe' what others
may or may not believe!  That just must fill your lil' ol soul with
pride.  Or maybe it's your pride that makes you believe that you can
know what other people think in the fastness of their own minds.

And you know where pride got the devil.  "Brother, thy tail hangs down
behind."
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Action = Life

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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Paul Davis
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 04 Feb 97  12:50:00
EID:fc77 22446640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d5201598
PD> PD>> Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
PD> RC> Bourbon or Scotch, which for you?

PD>Ok, you see no difference. What would you call someone indifferent to
religion
PD>as opposed to someone who actively debunks religion?

Chilled out.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * AIDS is a virus; Republicans are a punishment from God.


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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Anthropic asininities.
|Date: 04 Feb 97  12:50:00
EID:bb99 22446640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 332eb39f
MG> DC> Now all we have to do is start making the Mr Potato Head add-ons
MG> DC> in thermoplastic to decorate him properly.  


MG>What sort of add-ons would these be.  While we hear stories of carrots
and
MG>cukes,t he most oft removed vegetable from human orifices in ER's is
the
MG>common potato.  It is used by the uninformed as a birth control device.

  I hadn't heard of that one before--what do they thing that it
does besides blocking access?



---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Air I am! Fire I am! Water, Earth, and Spirit I am!


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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Jan Deboer
|Sub:  It'sa gooda cheza!
|Date: 04 Feb 97  12:50:00
EID:b6b5 22446640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0f08b892
JD>On 22 Jan 97  06:36:00 Judith Bandsma wrote to Jan Deboer...

JD> -=> Jan Deboer spoke thusly to Ed Mills <=-

JD> JD> Ja, ja - gouda isst frumm der verdommde amsterdammers!

JD> JB> Nee. Gouda is van Gouda niet Amsterdam.

JD> JD> Phonetically, gouda cheese = gooda cheese.

JD> JB> Again no. Phoenetically 'gouda' is pronounced kh (gargle sound)
JD> JB> owda.

JD>I thought that was the sound made by a Scotsman with a cold saying,
JD>"Ach".

More likely the sound that a Scot wearing kilts would make if he lost
his footing and slid ass down an icy hill. 
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

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|From: Jim Goodman
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  Fundies
|Date: 03 Feb 97  22:09:00
EID:010c 2243b120
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32f6a84c
DR>If you are so set against the idea that any God exist

MK>Strawman. We are not "set against the idea that any God 
MK>exist [sic]."  You have yet to provide us with any reason 
MKto believe that your gods exist -- that's all.

Even reasons to believe gods or any God exists would be
a start. Could there be good reasons for either? Never
mind answering the question whether "your gods" exist.
Just start with gods or God generic.





___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Dear Santa: Send me your list of naughty girls. Thanks.

--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  Wonder Woman Comics win
|Date: 03 Feb 97  22:15:02
EID:fd17 2243b1e0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32f6a9b6
DR>You have run to arms of atheism in order to avoid submitting
DR>to the will of the Almighty.

MK>How silly of you.  It is precisely the lack of any evidence 
MK>that any "Almighty"
MK>[sic] exists that has led to my own atheism.

Well, then, how 'bout "Partly mighty" rather than "Al-mighty?"
:)

Out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would have to exist
for it to constitute evidence for the existence of an
"Almighty" variety of a God? Certainly it would involve
signs in the universe and this world that the Almighty
One is in control of things. Quite the opposite would 
seem to be the case most of the time, correct?

___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * My other CPU is a dual Pentium Pro 200

--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  FUNDY SHUFFLE: Step 8
|Date: 03 Feb 97  22:17:04
EID:78ea 2243b220
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32f6aa30
RS>I think Ken needs Hooked on Phonics . . . anyone want to
RS>chip in to get it for him and Staalin so that they can
RS>get some remedial reading?

MG>Well, Ken Wino hasn't shown his fundy ass in here for 
MG>months.  I guess he had to go to someother echo and tell 
MG>them how he "kicked their asses in Holysmoke".

MG>The lad needs some self resepct, after all.

Must've been an interesting fellow. I'm new here myself. Yet
in the week or less I've read this echo I've seen quite a
few messages referencing this person. What was he, some kind
of radical "right" Fundi?



___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * A Smith and Wesson beats four aces.

--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Marygoround.
|Date: 03 Feb 97  22:22:06
EID:caaf 2243b2c0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32f6ab5e
PD>That was an event sure, but where did the event come
PD>from? Where is the cause of the Big Bang?

Jd>No one knows that yet...perhaps we may never know.

MG>The eternal hope of the fundy is "god may be around the 
MG>next corner".  It makes no difference to them that we have 
MG>successfully removed god from almost every natural event 
MG>that we know of. Lightening, thunder, earthquakes and all 
MG>the rest are given simple natural explanations.  but these 
MG>guys still want to attribute it to a god.

MG>Some people never learn.

Hmmm...Yes. Perhaps this is why they have retreated to the
Ultimate Cause of the Big Bang type of argument.



___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * A man's got to know his limitations. - Dirty Harry

--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 03 Feb 97  12:44:36
EID:aeee 22436580
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d5b9f8f5
On 01 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:

JB> -1 + +1 = 2

JB> OK.  (Are those right?)
RH> Yes.

OK, onward:

JB> But:   [-1<-----]0[----->+1]  Both -1 and +1 have _width_.  That is,

RH> John, the rule in counting blocks is that you do not count the

(Eh?  Where's _that_ written?  You only have to "not count the starting

block" if you've got a weird block in there you don't _want_ to count, 
like a "zero block"....  (*grin*))

RH> starting block, only the intervening blocks (including the
RH> destination block). So to subtract 3 from 5 we count (4) 1 + (5)
RH> 1 = 2

Hold it.  That is NOT true in addition, eh?  I can't just forget about 
block #1, can I?  If there's a "zero _block_," I _see_ it sitting there,

so I have to count it (like computers do....)  (*grin*)


RH> And to subtract -1 from 1 we count (0) 1 + (1) 1 = 2. If there
RH> is no zero block, our answer is 1, not 2.

JB> So:    [-1<-----]0[----->+1]
JB> ^        ^
JB> [one unit] [one unit] is two units, just as you say, but
JB> there's  no _width_ to the zero; it's just a no-dimension dividing line
JB> between  the beginnings of the two fraction-sets (one the plus, one
the
JB> minus)  going toward plus one and toward minus one.  Eh?

RH> There is no width to any number. 1 is the dividing line between
RH> 0.0 ... to 0.999 ... and 1.0 ... to 1.999 ...

You're being inconsistent here.... If YOU want "zero" to be a block, 
then "1" is a block as well, so which are you defending?  "One" is also

the whole unit inclusive of 0--->.999... (and puhleeze let's not start 
the old "0.999... = 1" argument!).

We can get mixed up here (which I saw possible when I wrote the above) 
between "blocks" == "infinitesimals," and "number" == "continuously 
subdividable without end."


RH> Remember, all we're doing is counting blocks when we add and
JB> subtract.

But to count UP, you don't ignore the first block you see, nor to count

"down" do you, either.  The first block you "subtract" is the block 
you're on:

5 - 3 = 2:

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

(remove [3] [4] [5], starting on #3 or #5, yields:

[1] [2]

(Or remove [1] [2] [3], leaving [4] [5], and count 'em [1] [2]...)

Eh?  No "zero block" is necessary or apparent in "counting," up OR down.

JB> Right, so how does "not a block" (no blocks at all) qualify as a
JB> block? When you have removed the last positive block, you don't have
JB> _any_  positive blocks ('zero').  When you remove the last negative
JB> block, you  have _no_ negative blocks (again 'zero').  If you had a
JB> "zero block,"  you'd still _have_ a block, in either case, and I don't
JB> think you could  defend either "0 = 1 block" or "0 = -1 block"....
JB> (*grin*)

RH> You still have the zero block, which can't be touched! Zero is a
RH> block (number) used to represent a quantity (none). You HAVE to
RH> HAVE it.

(?) perhaps I see the problem?  You call a "block" a _number_?  The 
block is not the number, to me; it is the _thing_ the 'number' is a 
symbol _for_.

You seem to have switched (from my viewpoint) what is the "real thing" 
and what is the _symbol_.  The _block_ is the "real thing," and the 
"number" is the "label" (the symbol) of(for) the "real thing."

Total lack of thingness AT ALL, has the _symbol_: "0."  When I deal with

"points" of zero dimensions, I am not dealing with "points called 
zeroes"; the _points_ are the 'real things,' not the dimensions.  There

is no such "thing" as a "nonexistent point" (a "zero block") --the very

idea is ludicrous.  I cannot use the symbol that represents the quantity

"none" (or "no points") as if it, itself, WERE a thing, block, quantity

or point.  See?  (And Robert Curry wonders where I got the idea that 
"standard math" is mostly useless to me in T-verse!  *chuckle*  It uses

a lot of abstract manipulation of _symbols_ for things that don't 
_necessarily_exist_!)

This is the difference: "zero" is a _symbol_ on the printed page.  It is

USED to _represent_ the absence of a quantity (any quantity).  It need 
not _exist_ like either positive or negative things do, all of which are

"real things" that "exist."

(This goes to what I said to Robert: when you count (shoes-in-my- 
closet), you count backwards _within_a_category_ ('s-i-m-c').  BUT, when

you have the last shoe in front of you, and remove it, not _just_ the 
shoe disappears, but the WHOLE CATEGORY disappears.  By removing the 
last item in the set, you eliminate the ENTIRE SET; the set itself 
ceases to exist.  IOW, 'a set with no members' is a contradiction-in- 
terms.  "The empty set" exists only as a mathematical abstraction: while

in every case that at least one object exists (hence the set, or 
category, of that object exists), if NO objects exist to _define_ that 
category--that set-- (as: "the set of all 'x'," etc.), then the set 
_itself_ does not exist.)

Please understand that I am heavily interested in what DOES EXIST; I 
have little patience with mathematical games about what does NOT exist.

"Zero" in most cases represents a state of non-reality--of non-existence

(of a set-member, an object, a set itself, 'etsetera').  I understand 
your positions (I understand Roger's, Herman Trivilino's, Peter Diehr's,

etc.); I just either 1) find many of them useless to apply to a posited

_reality_, or 2) disagree (usually for the same reason).  I have 
precious little time to play mathematical games for abstract amusement.

I want to play them ONLY if they have some reasonable chance of helping

me to understand the reality _I_am_IN_....  ...And "a block called 
'zero'" makes about as much sense to me as "a fish called 'Wanda'."  
Names only; nothing "real" is being revealed to me thereby.




Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  leggo my ego
|Date: 03 Feb 97  13:32:40
EID:9cd3 22436c00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 44a721c1
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e62
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

JB> Do you have a title --a reference written BY Conway, so's I can
JB> watch him generating the math

RC> See _On Numbers and Games_. See also Knuth's _Surreal Numbers_.

Thank you. I will look....

JB> However, I'm still interested in how _you_ would generate
JB> a math (more properly a topology or geometry) from "NoThing."

RC> Why?

See if you do the same things I would, and/or see if you _can_.


JB> That you disagreed with my points does not make them
JB> 'pointless.' (*grin*)

RC> They somehow manage to be pointless all on their own.

Then, you're not curious about the geotopological object itself, whether

or not it might model something of physics....


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Feb 97  13:50:10
EID:528c 22436e40
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 26fc15c1
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e63
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC> Are you now going to claim that the transfinites are integers?

JB> No.

RC> Good enough. I can always count on you to make some other ridiculous
RC> assertion, anyway -- for instance:

JB> "Infinity" has, as Cantor demonstrated (I've read one about
JB> him, too), many ways of being meddled with, but even Cantor
JB> could not at last escape the conclusion there had to be a sort
JB> of top-level infinity.

RC> I've already been over this once with you, John. Cantor's mystical
RC> beliefs in an "Absolute" (his notion of a god) were not math. He was
RC> aware of the fact that it's easy to prove there's no largest infinity.

It is, yet it's easy to grant one must 'exist': simply that infinity of

which all other infinities are subsets.
That's the crossover point, between metaphysics and uh.... 'other 
things,' like math.  "Infinity" itself isn't a completely mathematical 
thing--it has metaphysical aspects.

JB> My point is that no matter _which_ integer in an infinite set
JB> of integers you pick, it will BE an integer,

RC> OK.

(Gad.  An agreement.  Wonders never cease....)

JB> and there'll be another one just 'up ahead' by adding 1 to it.

RC> Its successor, yes.

(_Two_ agreements in one message.  I must be slipping....)

JB> Thus, in "walking the number linie toward infinity," (and
JB> assuming one starts with the right foot on "zero"), every
JB> left-footed step will be an odd integer, every right-footed
JB> step an even integer.

RC> Fine, but here's where you put your foot in it:

JB> But since we cannot see what "infinity" is, "infinity" is
JB> to us BOTH odd and even.

RC> Nope -- the integers are alternately odd and even. Since "infinity"
RC> is not an integer, it possesses neither of those qualities.

That's what I just said....  (Different words, same meaning)


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  set theory
|Date: 03 Feb 97  13:59:05
EID:0bbd 22436f60
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 73baff30
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e64
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC>  JB>> I thought "zero" was _defined_as_ "the empty set"?

RC> You were mistaken. Zero and the empty set are two different
RC> things. Zero is however the _cardinality_ of the empty set.

JB> I saw your post to Al.

RC> Did you learn anything from it?

Yeah; you don't treat Al any better'n you treat _me_.
(*chuckle*)  At least you're consistent....

JB> The "empty set" is, (is it not?), the usual 'starting concept'
JB> --the POOFed-from-nothing original fundamental-most idea
JB> of set theory?

RC> No, John.
RC> Open a book on elementary set theory and see for yourself, lazy boy.

What, _more_ incorrectness from the guys over there??  The above was a 
paraphrase of Darryl Gregorash's response to one of mine.  He even 
-agreed- that there had to be at least one _metaphysical_, axiomatic 
"statement," devoid of any support whatsoever except its statement-ness

--its axiomatic character, behind any mathematical system.  He said "the

empty set" was that concept, in set theory.  Wrong?  Why?  Most 
'fundamental' axioms are simple, so why not just TELL me what's wrong 
with what I said?


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  infinitesimals
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:05:13
EID:2809 224370a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 65687c34
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e65
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

JB> Please then tell me why all the flap over the origins of the
JB> calculus? It seems that Leibniz and Newton proposed
JB> infinitesimals --a minimum-possible increment of thingness
JB> (of divisibility), thus positing a math that required a minimum
JB> individualized entity,

RC> Thus positing no such thing, as an infinitesimal is by no means
RC> "a minimum individualized entity" -- that's one thing that you just
RC> can't get through your skull, isn't it?

My skull's busy keeping balderdash out of my brain.

What is the practical difference between "the smallest possible NONZERO

number," and "a minimum-possible increment of thingness"--an 
"individualized entity?"  Is a number not a thing --not an entity?  Is a

specific number not an individualized number?  Are there numbers on the

number line which are identical?  (no.)

You're too much like me; sometimes I think you like to argue an opposite

position merely to see if you can find a way around an otherwise 
logically sensible argument.

JB> but the calculus seems mostly to have had its creation powered
JB> by a need to get AWAY from that reastriction

RC>  If you want lessons, send me a billing address.

Firgetit.  With you as teacher, I'd learn how best to argue against 
_anything_ in math, and I'd probably learn more of the art of the put- 
down, neither of which is useful to me.

RC> The reason infinitesimals were not used in the historic development
RC> of calculus is because infinitesimal analysis had to be developed
RC> first in order to use them. That had not yet occurred, although
RC> both Newten and Leibniz intuitively realized infinitesimals could
RC> be used eventually, once mathematicians figured out how.

RC> Thus, calculus was developed using other means that were already
RC> available at the time, or which could be developed with much less
RC> trouble than a rigorous infinitesimal analysis (there is always
RC> more than just one way to do something in math).

OK.  Don't expect to get paid for that....

JB> IN dividing the range [1,2] into, say, decimal increments
JB> (.5, .25, .125,...,.n) there would be a SUBinfinite number

RC> Could 'finite' be the word you're looking for?

I wasn't looking for it.  But, sorry.  Yes.  Habit caused me to avoid 
"finite," since I'm used to dealing with a few _just_ 'subinfinite' 
items.  That is, "finite" can be anything between nothing and just short

of infinity, but my "writer's mind" feels "subinfinite" implies 
something closer  to the infinite than to nothing.  Perhaps not.  
"Finite" would do for us, but not for T-verse, in relation to which I 
find myself preferring "subinfinite" (most often with the qualifier 
"_just_."

JB> of increments in a math based on infinitesimals,

RC> You don't even know what an infinitesimal is, John, so why do you

I know _several_ infinitesimals.  A couple are "the smallest possible 
nonzero number," and "the least-possible increment of thingness, short 
of NO-Thing-ness."  My point was clear: between "0" and "1" (and between

any two consecutive numbers) is an _infinite_ range of other numbers, 
none of which is < the smaller, or > the larger, IF the number line is a

continuous entity.  However, if there IS an infinitesimal number--if the

number line is treated as composed of _discrete_ entities, then the 
number of numbers between any two consecutive numbers is _finite_.


RC> persist in babbling thusly? It would be easier for all concerned
RC> if rather than making up ridiculous terms or misappropriating terms
RC> that are already defined differently than what you mean, you were
RC> simply to state the properties of what you wish to describe, and
RC> ask if there's a term for such a thing. That would help you increase
RC> your mathematical vocabulary in a more trustworthy manner.


Maybe, maybe not.  I'm learning new categories, anyway.  I used to have

a category that had "lawyers," "doctors," and "priests" in it.  I 
suspect it'll end up having "mathematicians" in it as well....


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  "IS NOT"
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:28:50
EID:f870 22437380
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 b9702cac
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e66
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC>  JB>> It was precisely Leibniz' curiosity about an infinitesimal
RC>  JB>> increment (a NONcontinuous idea)

RC> Infinitesimals, as Leibniz applied them intuitively, are quite
RC> continuous, actually. Now if you had said nonarchimedean.... :-)

JB> AAaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgh!
JB> Please demonstrate that infinitesimals, "as Leibniz applied them
JB> intuitively" are "quite continuous?"

RC> Please demonstrate first that you understand the definitions of both
RC> "infinitesimal" and "continuous."

Nah:  I asked you first.



JB> these "standard math" guys won't let me CALL it a point.

RC> The blind leading the blind.

With that, I may be forced to agree.  However, it'll take some doing.  
I'd watch a 'what is math?'-type argument between you and Peter Diehr 
with interest, I'm sure....

JB> You don't seem to realize that if a concept structure does not
JB> already exist in a codified form, one cannot USE an existing
JB> codified-form concept structure to speak about it.

RC> You don't seem to realize that your crackpot notions do not use
RC> novel mathematical ideas -- but that's because you are ignorant

Baloney.  A point-without-a-background is apparently not a 'usual' 
mathematical idea.  Nor is a network without a coordinate system it's 
embedded in.  These are not "novel," perhaps, but they aren't easily 
seen to be 'standard,' either.


JB> One can try to _translate_, sure, but if there's something
JB> about the new paradigm that does _not_ translate (because the
JB> older peradigm has not considered that thing),

RC> It takes quite an ego to believe you have some revolutionary idea
RC> when you aren't familiar with even the tiniest fraction of the

"...even the Tiniest fraction?"  It does not help my ability to trust 
your information, when you so thoughtlessly indulge in "all-or-nothing"

phrasing.  Fundies do a lot of that.  I don't trust _them_, either.

I have no revolutionary idea.  I have slight modifications, mostly 
conceptual, to long-standing geometric ones, which, when presented, 
cause major arguments with some people.


RC> Perhaps it's a pleasant self-delusion for you, John. Is it?

It may be.  Even if so, I know beyond a _shadow_ of a doubt that I 
cannot get any "deeper" or more fundamental than the abstract ideation I

start the whole thing off with, so delusion or not, I'm stuck with it.

I don't believe anyone else can get it any simpler or deeper either, and

while that _reads_ as egotism, it remains to be seen whether or not it 
actually is.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  source of info
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:42:13
EID:d7a4 22437540
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 8207e7b9
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e67
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC> I'm interested in seeing whether the mistake is yours or
RC> Berlinski's (elsewhere you claim that he doesn't know the
RC> correct spelling of Leibniz, odd for someone writing of
RC> the man's historical contributions).

It's worse: new info is that D. Berlinski, while supposedly an expert in

_math_, has written an anti-type book about evolution, in which he is 
said to make some pretty gross errors of understanding.

That's not necessarily a condemnation of his ability IN his field (we 
all know what kind of stupid things CAN result from specialists writing

outside their expertise), but it doesn't help matters any when I'm 
trying to use him as a clear thinker even in his own field.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  crackpots and concepts
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:45:47
EID:1c75 224375a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 259141aa
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e68
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC>  JB>> "Zero" is a "number," as defined by mathematicians

RC> Again, just FYI, the quotes are not necessary in the above.

JB> (*chuckle*)  Yes they are.  I yield only to absolute refutation,
JB> nor provide I evidence of yielding before that time.

RC> So go to your grave a futile crackpot, Mr. Dumpty.

I'll be in good company, Mr. King's man.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  The Alignment List, part
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:47:54
EID:f8e4 224375e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 0073a44b
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a00f5794
On 01 Feb 97, Katherine Wintersnight wrote:


KW> *John Brawley    ???                 Amateur Creationism    Same old
KW>                                      Scientist and Quantum stuff
KW>                                      Bait Shoppe operator


Eureka, MO.           Amateur ANTI-
creationism
scientist, 


(fall for whatever bullshit
taglines you care to,
Katherine....)

Quantum
panentheism


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... WARNING!  Evolution may be hazardous to your Ego.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  QG test
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:52:22
EID:6146 22437680
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 02cbdc58
On 02 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:

RH> John, yesterday was the first lottery drawing in February. I bought
RH> two random number selection tickets.

RH> Guess what.?!

RH> I lost.

RH> The prize was $11,000,000.00

RH> 

(*grin*)  What'd you expect?  Try some penny stocks with those pennies 
you're spending.

If you're gonna do at _all_ better, you'll have to "dream up" the 
numbers you use, and I mean that _literally_.  Lucidity helps.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Gravity...always gets me down....

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  RE: HYPOCRITICAL PEOPLE
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:28
EID:ddd5 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 30 Jan 97 08:45pm, JONATHAN FINGAS wrote to DON MARTIN:

JF>   At least by the Bible's definition, the existence of Satan is all
JF>   around you.  People who murder, lie, cheat and steal are everywhere,
JF>   and that's supposed to be what Mr. Evil does best.
JF>   Also, events such as the Amityville Horror are a little TOO real to
JF>   deny his existence.  If you recall, the family that was living there
JF>   had to LEAVE because the house was quite literally going nuts.

Reality check time, dipshit. The Amityville Horror was a work of FICTION.
Of course, with that fundy mindset of yours, I'm sure you can't discern
the
difference between fantasy and reality.

Becke

... Possessor of a mind not merely twisted but actually sprained.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 290
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   All
|Sub:  FAQ!!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:29
EID:2555 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub:  RE: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:31
EID:674e 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 30 Jan 97 04:31am, DARRYL GONZALEZ wrote to FREDRIC RICE:

DG>      Wake up and smell the coffee, pal.  Even many non-Christian
DG>      psychologists are now beginning to embrace the concept of sin
DG>      being at the root of many psy chological problems people face
DG>      today.  For example, see Dr. Karl Menninger's excellent work,

Reality check time, Darryl. Non-Christians don't subscribe to the concept
of
sin. What is this Dr. Menninger's religious affiliation?

DG>      WHATEVER BECAME OF SIN?.  Many people, Christian and non-Christian
DG>      alike, are beginning to realize that all have sinned and fall s
DG>      hort of God's glory.

Christians, perhaps, buy into the whole guilt trip of "sin", but I doubt
you
could garner even ONE non-Christian who believes the above.

FR>>  Trying to excuse yourself for failing to adhear to what you claim
to
FR>>  believe in.  Do you cut your hair?  Eat pork?  Ever have a woman
FR>>  teacher?  Wear mixed fibres?   Christanic death cultists are always
FR>>  trying to rationalize-away why they disobey their deity constructs.
FR>>
DG>      Please show me where Christians are forbidden to cut their hair
or
DG>      eat pork.  And yes, Paul did teach that men should not have women

The pork reference can be found in Leviticus 4:7

"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he
cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you."

The hair reference can be found in Leviticus 19:27

"Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the
corners of thy beard."

Becke

... What do bunnies do at a Pagan Festival?  Take notes.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 288
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub:  RE: YOU FORGOT TO ANSWER
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:32
EID:f76a 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 30 Jan 97 04:42am, DARRYL GONZALEZ wrote to FREDRIC RICE:

FR>>  Why does anyone need to be "saved?"

DG> Because all have sinned, and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:23).
DG> Here i s the clear picture from Scripture:

DG> 1.  God created humanity, and desires to have fellowship with us
DG> forever. 2.  Humans are free moral agents, and can choose to follow
God
DG> or not. 3.  By choosing to follow God, and doing so, we can have that
DG> fellowship with Him both in this life and afterward.
DG> 4.  By not choosing to follow God, or by choosing not to follow God,
we
DG> deprive ourselves of His partnership in life.
DG> 5.  Once we choose to follow God, we turn our backs on the way we lived
DG> in sin in the world.  When we put our faith in God, our sins are
DG> cleansed from us by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Taking the above one at a time:

1. First of all, provide concrete evidence that we were in fact created
by an
external diety. Hardcore scientific evidence, dipshit..the Bible doesn't
apply. Secondly, if we *were* created by a diety, why would said deity have
a need for fellowship with mere humans? Were we created as his playthings?

2. In order for there to be such a thing as free will, there has to be no
coercion on either side. According to your bible, the penalty for NOT
choosing your God is eternal hellfire and damnation. Please define where
the
"free" is in any of that? And, if Christianity is worthy enough to be
considered as a belief system, why would we need any incentive/threat of
punishment to follow it?

3. First, provide concrete evidence of an afterlife. Secondly, how sure
are
you that *you* are going to get into that Heaven of his?

4. Why would someone want to spend their life with an evil, cruel,
misogynistic, spoiled brat such as your God?

5. Does this supposed forgiveness apply to all sins?? So, in essence, what
you're saying is no matter how you lived before (i.e. if you were a murderer,
or a child molestor, or a rapist), just by saying the word, your actions
are
justified and you don't have to face any of the consequences of your actions?
Some sense of responsibility you've got there, bozo.

DG> Fredric, it is essential that you understand this.  At the end of this
DG> life, you will have to face God as your judge.  He can either be your

DG> Savior or the person who casts you into hell.  It's your choice, man.


And what if Fred chooses not to go to hell? We have free will, remember.

Becke

... Pro-life? Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 288
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  RE: HYPOCRITICAL FINGAS
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:32
EID:cdd7 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 31 Jan 97 10:12am, MARK KIMES wrote to DAVID RICE:

JF>>> A messiah is supposed to save his people

DR>> "I don't know who's telling you lies, but they have to
DR>> stop. You must belong to one of those cults which recruits
DR>> extremely gullible people." A messiah is "one who crys
DR>> 'the "Kingdon of God" is at hand.'"

MK> Actually...

MK> messiah. A leader who is regarded as or professes to be a savior or
MK> liberator.

Hmm...sounds a bit like Koresh or Jim Jones, doesn't it??

Becke

... Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 288
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  RE: PEDOPHILE CHRISTIAN C
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:33
EID:51b6 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 29 Jan 97 04:25pm, JIM STAAL wrote to FREDRIC RICE:

em>> Lon Mabon breathes a little easier today, knowing that, for a
em>> little while, people's attention will be diverted away from
em>> him and his thus-far well-concealed NAMBLA membership.

FR>> "Mabon" is actually Jim Staal -- it's one of his racist personalities.

JS> Uh...I admit to using 'Lon S. Mabon' as an alias at one point (just
to
JS> assist in getting your personal goat)

Sure, Jim, sure...we believe you. (not!)

Becke


... I am never led astray, I just choose the path of least morality.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 288
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Edward Tushar
|To:   All
|Sub:  Believing vs Nonbelieving
|Date: 05 Feb 97  08:05:00
EID:bea1 224540a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:157/554.0 32f83f2b
TID: GE/32 1.2
Just a little curious as to the nature of the bashing in here.  Do
people bash the others that believe in God or do you bash those that try
to jam it down others throats?  Now, I do believe in God, but that is
something that I cannot prove nor will attempt to.  But I also do not 
spend my free time trying to convince others they are wrong and need to
believe.  To me, it is a personal choice.  My brother was at the tender
age
of 13 a complete psychotic.  He tried to kill himself.  Then he went into
therapy for about 5 years and now he is completely on the other side of
the fence.  He does nothing but preach his faith to me.  After a few battles,
he now knows not to preach to me.  I have this theory that most of the people
that are 'saved' and preach have some very traumatic past histories.  Anyhow,
I enjoy discussion, but hope I don't get any artillery rounds because I
believe
in God.  Look forward to some discussions.  And, just out of curiosity,
is 
Steve Winters still around?  I remember getting into some heated debates
with
him a few years ago.

Ed


... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
--- Bink/Max/GE 1.20 Pro
* Origin: Analytical Engine CBCS * 28.8k BPS * [216] 942-3876 (1:157/554)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Smegma Staalin
|Date: 04 Feb 97  19:39:13
EID:14d4 22449ce0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 7c758c23
REPLY: 1:3603/210 29e52ee4
On (31 Jan 97) ROBERT CURRY babbled to RICHARD SMITH...

js> Promise Keepers is organizing

RS> Shouldn't that be `are organizing' rather than `is
RS> organizing?'  Or is Jimson speaking Eubonics?  The failed
RS> English Major strikes again . . .

RC> No, that grammar is quite standard, taking "Promise Keepers"
RC> as a singular entity.

RC> Will you next be informing me that "mathematics" is plural
RC> because it too ends in an 's'? Or how about the United States
RC> of America?


But, of course!  So's "jackass."


... Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Goodbye /3 (2)
|Date: 04 Feb 97  19:46:51
EID:3641 22449dc0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 e00354b8
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 749060e2
On (31 Jan 97) Martin Goldberg babbled to Richard Smith...

RS>  I have a friend that has it AND Adrenal Cancer.  He's about
RS>  thirty-five, and claims that he thinks he's got about ten
RS>  years or less left . . .

MG> Is he certain it's lupus?  SLE is very rare in men.

Interesting.  Do you know why?

(Parenthetically, it is, I believe, more common for a
malady to be confined to men, than it is to find one
that is confined to women, excepting conditions that
are confined exclusively to female sex organs, of course.)


... Kill:  It's not just a good idea, it's God's law!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Doug Lee
|To:   Sue Armstrong
|Sub:  A God
|Date: 04 Feb 97  06:52:18
EID:5396 22443680
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32f75c1f
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32f204bd
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Rod Swift <=-


SA> Razor's gonna die.  He's got the same card I'm trolling for, and it
SA> cost him $300 about 3 years ago .

And who's Razor??



--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: The Avatar
|To:   Leonard Bernier
|Sub:  Psalm 69:4 / John 15:25
|Date: 04 Feb 97  08:48:10
EID:b088 22444600
MSGID: 1:342/1.2 32f6f96e
Good Morning, Leonard!

Friday January 31 1997 13:31, Leonard Bernier wrote to All:

LB>                          PRAISE GOD !

...For What?

LB> PROPHECY: - The Messiah will be hated without a cause.
LB> Those who hate me without a cause are more then the hairs of my
LB> head.

...Wrong!  Your god knows nothing.  He is hated, along with his bastard
son,
because of all the pain, horror and misery that have been, and still are,
heaped upon mankind by ignorant, self-serving people using his name(s).

LB> FULFILLMENT: But this happened that the word might be fulfilled
LB> which is written in their law, "They hated Me without a cause."

...And for this obvious piece of logic, we should abase ourselves?  Better
to
worship your mother who actually gave you life, and suckled you at her breast
without thought for herself!

Josef Berg
"The Avatar"
Sysop:  The Dream Weaver Point


--- GoldED 2.42.G0614

--- GoldED 2.42.G0614
* Origin: The Dream Weaver Point, Alberta (1:342/1.2)
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|From: The Avatar
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  CheckMate
|Date: 04 Feb 97  09:40:46
EID:77cd 22444d00
MSGID: 1:342/1.2 32f706a1
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 0756d30d
Good Morning, Marilyn!

Sunday February 02 1997 14:41, Marilyn Burge wrote to David Ragland:

DR>> I long for the return of the days
DR>> when there were women (and children for that matter) with an
DR>> air of innocence about them.

...More of the old style of, "Women and children were made to be seen and
not
heard," bulls shit.  How nice, let's go back to the time when women and
children were property, a time when the only way a woman could elevate or
even
keep her status was to marry.  Yup, it even states this kind of thinking
in
the Holy Babble.

DR>> Days when people in general
DR>> did not go about talking like drunken sailors
DR>> with Tourette's syndrome.

....Yup, a time when the Earth was flat, non-whites were animals, women
were
property.  A time when water and washing with it was something to be feared.
A
time when alcohol and violence was the answer to everything.

DR>> Women with these qualities are
DR>> far more attractive to the type of men that will treat you
DR>> with respect. Something for you and Marilyn and all women to
DR>> think about...

...That's right, Marilyn, strap on that corset, paint your face, pin up
your
hair, always walk two paces behind your man, never talk back, pump out babies
like a human sprinkler.  Really attractive to me.  Hell it would reduce
the
noise factor by half.  Silencing women and putting them back in the kitchen
and thier backs would certainly be attractive to many men.

Josef Berg


--- GoldED 2.42.G0614

--- GoldED 2.42.G0614
* Origin: The Dream Weaver Point, Alberta (1:342/1.2)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  the promise keepers
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:46:38
EID:7641 2244bdc0
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 9cf05f1f
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f7cab0
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Jim Staal to Rod Swift:

JS>  You are merely a blatant liar evidencing only his own ignorance and

JS> penchant for shooting of his mouth with nothing to back it up with,

JS> fact-wise.

You have just provided the job description of any ordained minister.

Most fundies do it, but ministers get paid for it.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:49:32
EID:bc50 2244be20
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 980effb4
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f7cb70
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
KY>> Oh, I agree completely..  However, at least with Koresh, he never
KY>> claimed to be the Messiah.

JS> I was under the impression (from reading much about the man and his
JS> claims - he attracted my attention by being a musician and
JS> songwriter) that he claimed to be God incarnate.

And here you've been telling us you read nothing but the bible,
using that as an excuse to have never seen the black-and-white
part of a dictionary.

So Koresh never claimed to be a messiah, but some of his followers
thought he must have been. Sound familiar?

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Pedophile Christian cooks / NAMBLA
|Date: 05 Feb 97  00:48:34
EID:fa71 22450600
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 a624f43e
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f7d8e2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
JS> For one, I don't think Mabon is a Calvinist. :) Also, articles
JS> appearing in the official publication of the church (The Banner) take
JS> just the opposite approach of mister Mabon concerning gay issues.

Excellent. When can be expect the first ordained gay minister? Before
or after the first female?

DH>> What I did to determine the validity of the CRC
DH>> high schools was to call the university where I teach and ask them
DH>> how many students had ever in 30 years been accepted from CRC high
DH>> schools. This isn't scientific, but it is the university one of my
DH>> kids wants to attend. Answer: zero.

JS>  And that university is...? Relevance?

Trent University, Canada.

The relevance is that a private xtian twelfth grade education
qualifies you to work at General Motors if you are exceedingly
lucky and happen to be one of the accepted 5,000 applicants that
compete every year for 40 jobs. It does not qualify you to
pursue a decent education.

DH>> What evidence do you have that parochial schools can, even on
DH>> average, graduate students equally prepared as public school
DH>> students for real universities? I don't mean CRC seminaries, I mean
DH>> accredited universities who offer degrees sufficient to enter
DH>> graduate school.

JS>  That can be obtained. The evidence that I have seen suggests that in

JS> West Michigan, the education receive in our schools consistantly 
JS> surpasses that of the local public schools.

No, that is your opinion. It is evidence in no way whatsoever. Evidence
would include the percentage of students who have duly earned 
postgraduate degrees compared with the percentage of students from
the public system.

I have yet to see a separate school whose supporters failed to 
believe their students exceeded average standards, when in fact
there is zero evidence to support this. We're not talking about
something that may have happened six thousand years ago here. This
can be measured. 

I have asked the principal of the local CRC high school for these
figures, and imagine! He has to look them up and get back to me.
How could he not even know?

I personally don't accept claims that either home schooling or
parochial schooling comes even close to matching the standards
of the pathetic public systems. If you have any evidence to the
contrary, I'll be happy to hear it.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Feb 97  00:05:32
EID:37a3 224500a0
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 3b5b9e0a
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f7cf4d
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH>> Do the laws of the bible equal the laws of the land?

JS>  Obviously not or we wouldn't be murdering helpless infants by the 
JS> millions annually...

Yes, well, hmmm.

DH>> Should they?

JS>  As a Christian, I say definitly. As an American, I have to say no.
I 
JS> would rather have God bring about a moral revival in the hearts of
JS> the  people than have Congress legislate our personal lives.

It looks like you're saying that your sense of American community
is more important to your behaviour than your sense of Christian
morality. That you will abide by the law of the land if you have
to choose. Is that right?

DH>> Do you have the balls to state your position?

JS>  Obviously.

Yes, thanks.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Phd=Professional Hiway Driver
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:51:40
EID:c3fb 22437660
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81baf
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  14:39:46 Dave Hamilton wrote to Marilyn Burge...

MB> No wonder used car salesmen are so successful at their jobs!

DH> Amazing, isn't it? I used to think of these people as shallow
DH> until I began to consider the depth of their ignorance. I'm
DH> still waiting for the sound of the pebble hitting bottom with
DH> this ace.

It isn't the ignorance that surprises me, it's the pride in it!

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Another Virgin Birth
|Date: 03 Feb 97  15:56:26
EID:e9ec 22437f00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  10:52:12 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS>  Hmmm. That she gave a HYMN OF PRAISE to God afterwards for?
AS>  There was no violence. Nor is there ANY indication that such was
AS>  displeasing to her, EVEN THOUGH it almost caused her fiance to quietly
AS>  divorce her. She didn't even have the slightest idea she was pregnant.

Jd> Your evidence for that is?

AS> The only source we have about ANY knowledge of Mary---the Gospels
AS> . If you want to say the whole thing was a fairy tale, feel free.

MOTHER                       SON

Mary                         Jesus
Maia                         Buddha
Maia                         Hermes
Maya                         Agni
Myrrha                       Adonis
Myrrha                       Bacchus
Maya Maria                   Sommona Cadom
(Siamese Saviour)
Mariama                      Krishna

Not only is it a failry tale, it is a PLAGIARIZED fairy tale.
See list above for the earlier myths from which your Jesus/Mary myth's
'Mary' was cloned.

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Rich and famous
|Date: 03 Feb 97  16:10:20
EID:3203 22438140
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb1
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  14:14:42 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

Jd> If Prince charles walked in, you'd have a hard time prying their
Jd> tongues from his ass. If the worst dictator arrived, they'd be
Jd> 'honoured'. God's reperesentative Billy Graham was best friends with
Jd> Richard "I am not a crook" Nixon.

AS> Jesse Jackson...also a preacher...wasn't.

You expected Nixon to have _black_ friends?

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  SETI
|Date: 03 Feb 97  16:11:40
EID:9907 22438160
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  14:16:16 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS> Communication; the Bible; think about it.

Jd> Communication; Tarot Cards, chicken entrails; seances; Dianetics;
Jd> the bible; the koran; book of mormon; tea leaves; thin kabout it.

AS> "Thin". Then I need to diet?

You need to thin k about it.

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Shrouded in Mystery
|Date: 03 Feb 97  16:12:52
EID:8710 22438180
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  14:19:06 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

Jd> Because the 'spiritual experiences' of others are frauds and
Jd> deceptions of the church. The shroud of Turin. The vial of 'blood of
Jd> christ' that congeals every easter. The ailing pope who avoids Lourdes
Jd> and Benny Hinn.

AS> Maybe not always. Although I agree there is a great deal of fraud
AS> .

Jd> Why not build on the human experience of helping others.

AS> A good idea. But one which men were too prone NOT to do...without
AS> a little encouragement.

The nature of many men _was_ to help each other. The early American
Colonists wouldn't have survived the first winter without the native's
help. But, being christians, look how they repaid them!
Religion has imposed its mental illness on humanity. Instead
of turning to each other, they are conditioned to look to an imaginary
'friend', while competing for the 'most greedy' position at the top of
the pyriamid, and turning a cold shoulder to each other.
Religion, as you very well know, is a divisive force, not a cohesive
one. Hence, the current attempts to fractionate and destroy the public
school system.

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 03 Feb 97  16:25:34
EID:5afc 22438320
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb4
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 28 Jan 97  19:22:00 Ken Young wrote to Jan deBoer...

KY> The body must be ours, but perhaps if we let God guide our
KY> thinking a little more, this would be a better place.

Jd> That's been tried already - the period known as "THE DARK AGES".

KY> Well, what are we in now, the "age of enlightenment?"

The "age of enlightenment" is behind us, and religion is trying for a
return to the dark ages.
Ever noticed, Ken, that the voices telling us how evil and sinful our
society has become, are the same ones proclaiming we live in a
Judaeo-Chrisitan society, and that as the number of Churches increase,
things seem to get worse?

.JdB

... I'm using a lousy 80486
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   All
|Sub:  God's Promises
|Date: 04 Feb 97  20:54:32
EID:a782 2244a6c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb5
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
MARTYRDOM OF JOHN HUSS, IN VIOLATION OF A SOLEMN COMPACT.

John Huss was an eminent Reformer, at the commencement of the 15th
century, long before the time of Luther. He boldly rebuked the
corruptions of the Church of Rome, and especially vindicated the right
of the laity to receive the cup in the celebration of the Lord's Supper.
He was therefore denounced as a heretic. Pope John XXII, A.D. 1410,  a
monster of iniquity, and afterwords deposed by the Council of Constance
for his crimes, expelled Huss from the communion of the Church, - an act
which was treated with contempt by that Reformer. In the year 1415,
however, Huss was summoned before the council of Constance. He hesitated
to obey; but having received from the Emporer Sigismund a SAFE CONDUCT,
or promise that he should be unhurt; he went to the council; and yet,
DESPITE OF THAT PROMISE, was burnt to ashes on