God Damned Fundies!

---

11 Years of HolySmoke


|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  more babbling email+
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:23
EID:8af5 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492505
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> Anything I got which I considered junk email I would consider
AS>> to be even LESS welcome to others. And would feel they would
AS>> blame me for spreading it. A thoroughly logical position.

RC> How unimaginative. Don't you know that manure does have value,
RC> when recycled properly? Since your junk BEGAN in the echo,
RC> and contained nothing but what you normally ost in the echo, it
RC> BELONGED back in the echo. Ashes to ashes; feces to fertilizer.

AS> The circle of life...
AS> Or laugh.

Quite so. That's exactly why your literary manure was recycled.


AS>> You did not return the email to my systems administrator
AS>> with a note "take care of it", did you?

RC> Why would I want to pester your postmaster with such bilge?

AS>

RC> Would it be welcome outside of HolySmoke?

AS>

RC> No, what I did was far more effective.
RC> On the other hand, I could send you all the email I like, which
RC> contains anything whatsoever, and you say that you would never
RC> post any of it.

AS> Yes.

Would you show it to your psychiatrist? Even if she thought it would
be beneficial for your recovery, under doctor-patient confidentiality?


RC> What do you do when you try to respond to a postmaster, but the
RC> originating address doesn't exist?

AS> ??? Respond to WHAT from a postmaster? And which address?
AS> The address for a postmaster or some other individual?
AS> DO try to make yourself a little more clear, won't you?

I don't think you would really want that.

LOL!


* SLMR 2.1a * 

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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  nothing much
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:24
EID:c369 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492506
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> And my interest...in either...is exactly zero.

RC> So what impelled you to spread misinformation about a subject that
RC> does not interest you in the least? Just on general principles?

AS> Idle banter. Your excuse?

Correcting your misinformation in case there are new lurkers who are
not yet aware of your reknowned unreliability in matters of fact.


AS> I am not oblidged to answer baseless innuendo.

The misinformation consisted of your two faulty definitions, which
I subsequently corrected.

You might at least have thanked me.


RC> You really don't take correction very well, do you, Al?

AS> Not from someone who gets off on it, no.

Not from anyone, judging by your behavior here in the echo.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  the Good and Salty Lord
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:25
EID:0584 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492507
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC>> 100% natural, and spook-free -- Guaranteed!

AS>> Obviously I will need to look at the fine print
AS>> of that guarentee, and see who backs it...do you
AS>> come with a money-back guarentee?

RC> You couldn't afford me.

AS> Doubtless. Those fumigation bills are enormous, they tell me.

If you need to dispose of the bats in your belfrey, perhaps you'd
best consult that psychiatrist.

Or...

del c:\belfrey\*.bat


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  waiting, still
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:26
EID:160a 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492508
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> I was laughing at your bizarre attribution of Platonism to _me_.

AS> Then do elucidate your position. In what sense are numbers
AS> immaterial "things" rather than labels we attach to things,
AS> since that was your assertion. Or did you misstate?

Since that was not my assertion, you are the one making yet another
misrepresentation, Al.

My position is that of a mathematical Formalist, with perhaps some
vaguely Intuitionist leanings. For further information, you'll
not likely find a better source than Abraham Robinson's *Formalism 64*,
found in the book, _Logic, Methodology, and Philosophy of Science_
(edited by Y. Bar-Hillel).

Representatives of the Platonist position -- like Rudy Rucker, Roger
Penrose, and John Barrow -- are still interesting to read, however.


AS> Well, then, Gumby, you want to make it a little clearer
AS> and try to actually say what you mean?

Stop making me laugh with your funny misrepresentations, first, please!

If you have a specific question, Al, then feel free to ask it.


AS> by calling numbers immterial "things" you put them in the same
AS> category as, say, "souls".

ROFL! So is humor a material thing, or an immaterial thing, Al?
Please do yourself a favor and get a decent secular education.

Your turn, Pokey.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARK KIMES
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:27
EID:f442 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492509
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Quantum Bait Boy

JB> Cantor demonstrated (I've read one about him, too), many ways of
JB> being meddled with, but even Cantor could not at last escape the
JB> conclusion there had to be a sort of top-level infinity.

MK> Did he add one to it?  :-)

(LOL!) Brawley is certainly full of shit, because Cantor himself proved
that there is no largest infinity.

The proof involves power sets rather than addition, though. :-)


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   NICK RAVENWOOD
|Sub:  Becke, slave to satan
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:28
EID:8870 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250a
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Lynda Bustilloz

LB> Oh, look. You're back. Done killing yourself?

NR> That was over long ago.  There are many others I would rather
NR> see dead than myself.  That's ok though, seeing people suffer
NR> through life is joy enough.

...Jesus?...

Jesus? Is that you?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub:  dropping of names
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:29
EID:8569 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250b
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB>> HEY, you left out Marilyn. And the 3 Harpies. And....
RC>  How shall I ever make up for the oversight?

JB> Chocolate works. In this case, nothing less than Godiva. 

We shall see.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARILYN BURGE
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:30
EID:91a7 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250c
TID: GE/2 1.2
MB> But, were there also only a pair (or seven, depending on which
MB> version you want to go with) of each and every creature
MB> immediately following the flood? Now. YOU tell ME where all those
MB> souls came from to inhabit nearly 6 billion people only about
MB> 6,000 years later!

Mix-and-match mythology can be fun!

I suppose it depends on how long souls can "hang out" wherever it
is they're supposed to be between incarnations.

Or whether they're limited to a single planet.

Then you might even have a single soul that travels through both
space and time, weaving its way in and out to be everyone who ever
is, was, and will be.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  the real world
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:31
EID:a049 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250d
TID: GE/2 1.2
about: Al Schroeder

RC> And you say that you read _Blind Watchmaker_? If so, why
RC> didn't you learn anything from it?

DW> In a previous message, you say:

RC> Don't confuse him with the facts. If it doesn't match
RC> his dogmatic aplogetics, then he will not listen --
RC> the realities of the situation are nothing compared to
RC> his need for propping up his sadistic dogma.

DW> Where did you pick up this habit of answering your own
DW> questions before you ask them?

Too many proofs by mathematical induction?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID RAGLAND
|Sub:  Wonder Woman Comics win
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:32
EID:4f67 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250e
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Fred Rice

DR> You have run to arms of atheism in order to avoid submitting
DR> to the will of the Almighty.

Fess up, David -- you've been using pepper again, haven't you?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   KEN YOUNG
|Sub:  Rewriting the truth
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:33
EID:7750 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b49250f
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> You think everyone needs to use the King James, perhaps?
AS> How fundy of you.

KY> Well, it is the most accurate version, after all..

ROFL!

Al should be happy you're here to make him look like a comparative
genius.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   KEN YOUNG
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Feb 97  03:35:34
EID:61d9 22431c60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2b492510
TID: GE/2 1.2
KY> Maybe if we came back to God, crops would do better..

No one could possibly be this stupid! LOL!


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--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   PAUL DAVIS
|Sub:  silly brit stuff
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:01
EID:7d8f 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba2222f
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> No, it follows logically from the universe including, by definition,
RC> all that exists. Thus, if a god exists, it is in the universe.

PD> So, by that logic, if you build a bike, you are the bike right?

Is a bike defined as "all that exists?"


PD>> Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
RC> Bourbon or Scotch, which for you?

PD> Ok, you see no difference.

ROFL!

Lay off the pepper, silly Brit. It's making you sinful.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   BECKE BOYER
|Sub:  ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:02
EID:74aa 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22230
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> Look, I might feel a tug on my pants, and look down and see
AS> a toddler. He might make a request...

AS> So sometimes I may refuse, and seem cruel, but really be working
AS> for the good of the toddler.

BB> Bad analogy, Al. The toddler gets a concrete response either way.
BB> Either you play ring-around-the-rosie with him or you tell him
BB> no. God doesn't answer back--ever.

And if the toddler is tugging on Al's pants because she got stuck
in an ant hill, and the ants are about to have a slow feast, then
would Al stand and watch and do nothing because that's "really
working for the good of the toddler?"

Perhaps he could come up with an apologetic argument for that cruelty.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   PAUL DAVIS
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:03
EID:704f 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22231
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB> Uh, as far as I can see, math doesn't work at all without zero.
JB> You get to 9 and there's nowhere else to go.

PD> Try using base 9.

So you get as far as eight.
Now how do you represent nine in base nine?


Silly Brit, didn't you learn maths over there in Limeyland?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   KAREN DAVIS
|Sub:  Naked Pagan Rituals
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:04
EID:92b9 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22232
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Paul Davis

PD> So what do you call someone who has no stance for or against
PD> religion and someone who actively debunks it?

KD> The debunking is not the issue. I firmly believe people can
KD> believe what they please, but I will debunk religious statements
KD> when I have the opportunity. That's not antitheist.

It's anti-bullshit.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   ROGER HUNTER
|Sub:  HUMOR THE FUNDY FOOLS
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:05
EID:379f 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22233
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> Hmmm. While you are dreaming, you think to yourself, "Gee, those
AS> people are changing identities. This must be a dream?" SUUURE
AS> you do, Robert.

RH> He may well do so. I have. It's called "lucid dreaming".

Good luck with Al the Supposedly Superknowledgeable.



This is my week for creating handy acronyms. I got a good start
quite by accident while speaking to the Humanists of Florida
statewide board of directors meeting yesterday. Now I can hardly
wait for the upcoming Humanist/Atheist convention!

I am looking forward to the wonderful and much anticipated fun.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   RONALD VASS
|Sub:  native americans
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:06
EID:4726 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22234
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW>> While fire is the primary requirement for technology,
RC>> Are you sure about that?

DC> I have to agree with David on that point.  Though it does
DC> not ensure that a technology will develop, it is the basis
DC> of all technology, FMPOV.

RC> Do you need to be able to harness fire in order to use a spear?

RV> Nope. Fire does work good to harden a wood spear point though.

Indeed, the use and control of fire was a spectacular advance for
early human technology.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   RONALD VASS
|Sub:  fucked up priorities
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:07
EID:af9c 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22235
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> The girl who was not raped grows up to enjoy putting red-shot
AS> branding irons on people.

RV> Here Al maybe is trying to explain to the world, why priest
RV> rape the young. It's for their beterment.

According to Al, rape is for the betterment of the victims and
for the betterment of society as a whole.

In his knee-jerk defense of an indefensible dogma, he reveals just
how fucked up religious belief can make a person. And remember,
for every Al who is just all talk, there are religious believers
around who would put such sick notions into ACTION.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  Most Read Book
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:08
EID:6b97 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22236
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> I recently finished reading _The Godless Constitution: The Case
DW> Against Religious Correctness_ (ISBN 0393039617).

Sounds like an excellent pick for a book discussion group. Danke!


DW> Oddly enough, the fundies in late 18th century America agreed
DW> with you - they also felt that the Constitution was a godless
DW> document. I wonder when they collectively changed their minds?

It was a PR move.

Traditional fundy ignorance also made its contribution to the general
belief, once the move had been made.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  native americans
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:09
EID:6ef7 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22237
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> I was rather thinking of technology utilized before the
RC> harnessing of fire (thus eliminating fire altogether from
RC> a list of _requirements_).

RC> Move it instead to a list of technological advances (early
RC> ones or important ones or whatever you like) for my nitpicking
RC> to cease.

DW> I'm not sure I can do that. I don't consider *simple* tool
DW> use (whether it be pointy sticks as spears by humans, or bent
DW> twigs by monkeys as termite gathering tools) as technology.

So you call simple technologies by another name.

How would you treat examples of *complex* technology that do not
depend whatsoever on fire? Would you still say fire's a requirement?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  dos internet
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:06:10
EID:a3ff 224370c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 2ba22238
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> Someone here was recently talking about accessing the
DW> Internet with DOS.

DW> I stumbled upon the following URL that might be of help:
DW> http://www.fdisk.com/doslynx/

Well, they'll first need a TCP/IP program to establish connectivity
to begin with before being able to use that text-based web browser
(except with their own local HTML files).

For accessing the Internet, you could call the TCP/IP program a
requirement, even.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Our Daily Bread
|Date: 05 Feb 97  00:33:30
EID:ac64 22450420
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f84a3b
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Sue Alexander <=-


SA>  RS> Arrrrgh!  George Mooth SPEAKS!  I made him speak!  Woooowooowoooo!
SA>  RS> What prize do I win, fellow HolySmokers?

SA>      Congratulations on the achievement, but I must tell you that it
has
SA> happened before.  Right here, in fact.  I think he just wanted to let
us
SA> all wait in antici...pation of this very rare sighting.  Me, I'd rather
SA> be burning (ah, make that baking) cookies.  ;)

RS> Who got his scalp last time?

If I remember correctly, I did.  But you got him to do it more
often, which is very worthy of note!!

Sue

... We are NOT surrounded, we're in a target-rich environment!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  01:01:10
EID:3e1d 22450820
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f84a3c
-=> Quoting Jonathan Fingas to David Worrell <=-

JF>> You certainly don't have any proof that Jesus DIDN'T turn water
JF>> into wine, feed 5000 with a lone basket of food, or walk on
JF>> water.
DW>> You don't have any proof that I do not have an IOU,
DW>> signed by you, for $100,000. Present your proof, or pay
DW>> up.

DW>> The burden of proof lies upon the maker of the positive claim,
DW>> moron.

JF>   Yes, but can you prove that you do have an IOU?  Guess not, hmm.

DW> Yes, but can you prove that Jesus did turn water into 
DW> wine? Guess not, hmm.

JF> But if I can't prove my case, then certainly you can't prove yours
JF> either.  Now try and give me something that will work for BOTH of us.


What would work for the both of you is for each of you to provide
evidence for your claim...for David to produce the IOU for inspection,
and for you to provide evidence that Jesus could have turned water into
wine.  Got any evidence (other than the bible, which is a doubtful
source)?

DW> Idiot.

JF> By the way, personal attacks can get you kicked out of this forum,
JF> so I'd suggest you come up with something other than lame
JF> name-calling. 

You had better check where you are trying to post, then, as I think
you must be thinking you are in another area.  This is Holysmoke, with
Styx Allum as the e-listed moderator.  He generally does not give a damn
if people name-call here.  When you are listed as the moderator of this
echo you regulate language all you want...until then, LEAVE IT TO STYX!!

JF> The Bible is the only thing we have for proof, and I'm content to
JF> believe it.

Just goes to show your content...

DW> Because you're a moron.

JF> More personal, unfounded attacks.  I wouldn't be surprised if my
JF> message doesn't get through, since you're probably going to lose
JF> access to this forum. 

It got through to me just fine, and I expect to see much more from
David.  If you keep trying to usurp Styx's moderator powers here,
however, he may become annoyed with you.  It is not good to annoy
moderators.

Sue

... If he was a car, all of his idiot lights would be now be flashing.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  01:12:18
EID:8816 22450980
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f84a3d
-=> Quoting Jonathan Fingas to Judith Bandsma <=-

JF> Whereas I have only wanted to scream at people like you, who
JF> automatically brand people and jump into arguments for no other reason
JF> than to work out their anger. 
JB> It's YOU who needs to go back and read the bible, little boy.

JB> Now...FUCK OFF, ASSHOLE.

JB> There, that's better.

JF> Not really.  Swearing shows a small vocabulary and poor taste.

At least he did not say that swearing is not "lady-like"!

Sue


... He appears to be suffering from Clue Deficiency Disorder.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  How to Attract Men (LOL!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  02:57:50
EID:9b54 22451720
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8a
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to Joe Shedlock <=-

DR> P.S. What's wrong with Melissa Etheridge's hairdo?!
JS> It is very much the "before" in the "before/after" makeover 
JS> category.  It is part of an over all "look" that says 
JS> something about her interest in attracting men.

RS> Even though she's gay?

That says even more about her interest in attracting men!  

Sue

... Reality? Yeah . . I sorta remember that . . .
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Convention on the Rights of the Child
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:02:47
EID:a097 22451840
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8b
-=> Quoting Anthony Grigor-Scott to Laurie Appleton <=-

AG> Dear Laurie Appleton,

AG> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

LA>> The delusion that small changes accumulate was
LA>> debunked in an Historical Conference of leading
LA>> evolutionists in 1980. Didn't you know about that?

AGS> Thanks for that. I was planning to mention it on next Sunday's
AGS> national broadcast (1:00pm Eastern Summer Time via ComRadSat).

AG> Here is a transcript:-

(deleted...I couldn't take another round of it)

AG> -!- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
AG>  ! Origin: Bible Believers BBS * West Ryde * 61-2-9809-3723!
AG> (3:711/933)

Rod-
If you ever needed a reason to get out of the country, this could
very well be it!     

Sue

... "Initiating `Getting-The-Hell-Outta-Here' Maneuver..." --Lennier
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  execute her ?
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:13:18
EID:589a 224519a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8c
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to Sue Alexander <=-

js> question marks, and not periods. Call it trolling if you
js> like, but I intended it to merely drive home my point that
js> he was BS-ing about his lack of knowledge of pagan divorces.
mm> But Jim, you just MADE Glenn's point about pagan divorces
mm> (that they are scarce, hardly in existence, or whatever,
mm> and certainly not sitting on his doorstep).
mm> Gwenny was no pagan when she got divorced from her first
mm> husband. She was a Mormon. Ergo, NO PAGAN DIVORCE.
SA> T'was pretty easy to understand, wasn't it??  I think that 
SA> Jim was just looking at it through the mist of what he 
SA> WANTED to see, and jumped on the point when he saw a 
SA> chance.  He tried to deny that he even said it at all, but
SA> I wouldn't let him get away with it....

RS> Or, clueless dunce that he is, he considers Mormons to be
RS> Pagans . . . 

It wasn't so simple.  He knew he was trolling, said at the time he
was trolling (admittedly not in those words), and yet later denied
saying it at all.  Typical Jimbo behavior.  And he says he is not
rude.....yeah, right. 

Sue

... I'd invite Jesus into my heart, but my blood needs the room.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  How to Attract Men
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:23:18
EID:d4d9 22451ae0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8d
-=> Quoting Dave Hamilton to Damien Wellman <=-

DW>  Which is why, of course, we need to start selling red shirts to
DW> selected  fundies. (Hey, Jimbo! Wanna new shirt?)

DH> To replace that one with the target on it?

Just beam him down with Jim Kirk, and the red shirt is all the
target you need!

Sue



... Star Trek VII:  The Search for Kirk's Toupee.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Paul Davis
|Sub:  Believer
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:30:31
EID:21c1 22451bc0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8e
-=> Quoting Paul Davis to Joe Shedlock <=-

ME> There's a big difference between not wanting to have kids and not
ME> being able to. You choose not to have children. Homosexuals can't
ME> have children, no matter what hole they put it in.

JS>    Melissa Etheridge and her lover seem to be contradicting your
JS>    assertion.

PD> Is Melissa Etheridge a man then? It's quite obvious what is being
PD> implied by the above statement but you choose to be obtuse just the
PD> same, why? 

Does Melissa sound like a male name?  How you find this "implied"
by the statement is a complete mystery to me...unless you are clueless
as to the current state of reproductive technology. 

Sue



... "Rimmer, sir, you are a Smeghead." -- Kryten
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  T
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:49:11
EID:df9c 22451e20
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a8f
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Ronald Vass <=-

AS> Do I pay her royalties in chocolate?

RV> If you don't want the feel of the cat of nine tails licking your
RV> ass, it may be a good idea. Brit/Dutch chocolate is the better way.

AS> Thanks for the recommendation. My problem is if I buy any, it will
AS> be claimed by my wife long before I could send it to Lynda.

There are stores that will send packages directly, Al.  Probably
even good chocolate...

Sue

... "Dr. Scott!" "Janet!" "Brad!" "Rocky!" "Bullwinkle!"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  03:54:30
EID:3e1d 22451ec0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32f85a90
-=> Quoting Jonathan Fingas to David Worrell <=-

DW> Your say-so doesn't cut it little man. Give references.

JF> So of course, when I actually DO give evidence, he refutes it.  A
JF> little hypocritical! And in case you need to know, all those were
JF> from a long TV special on real-life miracles on TLC.  A little syrupy,
JF> but also a little hard to deny, since they show before/after pictures
JF> (in the case of that swollen leg thing), and talk to the doctors and
JF> scientists who couldn't explain the given miracle. 

Do you always believe what you see on television?

Sue


... Dragons aren't extinct, they've just learned to hide real well.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 04 Feb 97  12:50:00
EID:f82c 22446640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 8458063f
DR>MGIt's wonderful that you believe this nonsense.  do you have any evidence
DR>for
DR>MGit?

DR>   Why, yes.  As a matter of fact, I do. ;)  Look to your own evidence
first
DR>though, ok?  Specifically, look at why _you_ believe God exists and let's
see
DR>how it compares to mine.  Don't bother telling me you _don't_ believe.
I
DR>won't believe you.  I don't believe "anyone" who says this.  I believe
they
DR>are just being rebellious.

How wonderful that you've been given the power to 'believe' what others
may or may not believe!  That just must fill your lil' ol soul with
pride.  Or maybe it's your pride that makes you believe that you can
know what other people think in the fastness of their own minds.

And you know where pride got the devil.  "Brother, thy tail hangs down
behind."
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Action = Life

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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Paul Davis
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 04 Feb 97  12:50:00
EID:fc77 22446640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d5201598
PD> PD>> Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
PD> RC> Bourbon or Scotch, which for you?

PD>Ok, you see no difference. What would you call someone indifferent to
religion
PD>as opposed to someone who actively debunks religion?

Chilled out.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * AIDS is a virus; Republicans are a punishment from God.


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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Anthropic asininities.
|Date: 04 Feb 97  12:50:00
EID:bb99 22446640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 332eb39f
MG> DC> Now all we have to do is start making the Mr Potato Head add-ons
MG> DC> in thermoplastic to decorate him properly.  


MG>What sort of add-ons would these be.  While we hear stories of carrots
and
MG>cukes,t he most oft removed vegetable from human orifices in ER's is
the
MG>common potato.  It is used by the uninformed as a birth control device.

  I hadn't heard of that one before--what do they thing that it
does besides blocking access?



---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Air I am! Fire I am! Water, Earth, and Spirit I am!


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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Jan Deboer
|Sub:  It'sa gooda cheza!
|Date: 04 Feb 97  12:50:00
EID:b6b5 22446640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0f08b892
JD>On 22 Jan 97  06:36:00 Judith Bandsma wrote to Jan Deboer...

JD> -=> Jan Deboer spoke thusly to Ed Mills <=-

JD> JD> Ja, ja - gouda isst frumm der verdommde amsterdammers!

JD> JB> Nee. Gouda is van Gouda niet Amsterdam.

JD> JD> Phonetically, gouda cheese = gooda cheese.

JD> JB> Again no. Phoenetically 'gouda' is pronounced kh (gargle sound)
JD> JB> owda.

JD>I thought that was the sound made by a Scotsman with a cold saying,
JD>"Ach".

More likely the sound that a Scot wearing kilts would make if he lost
his footing and slid ass down an icy hill. 
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

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|From: Jim Goodman
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  Fundies
|Date: 03 Feb 97  22:09:00
EID:010c 2243b120
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32f6a84c
DR>If you are so set against the idea that any God exist

MK>Strawman. We are not "set against the idea that any God 
MK>exist [sic]."  You have yet to provide us with any reason 
MKto believe that your gods exist -- that's all.

Even reasons to believe gods or any God exists would be
a start. Could there be good reasons for either? Never
mind answering the question whether "your gods" exist.
Just start with gods or God generic.





___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Dear Santa: Send me your list of naughty girls. Thanks.

--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  Wonder Woman Comics win
|Date: 03 Feb 97  22:15:02
EID:fd17 2243b1e0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32f6a9b6
DR>You have run to arms of atheism in order to avoid submitting
DR>to the will of the Almighty.

MK>How silly of you.  It is precisely the lack of any evidence 
MK>that any "Almighty"
MK>[sic] exists that has led to my own atheism.

Well, then, how 'bout "Partly mighty" rather than "Al-mighty?"
:)

Out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would have to exist
for it to constitute evidence for the existence of an
"Almighty" variety of a God? Certainly it would involve
signs in the universe and this world that the Almighty
One is in control of things. Quite the opposite would 
seem to be the case most of the time, correct?

___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * My other CPU is a dual Pentium Pro 200

--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  FUNDY SHUFFLE: Step 8
|Date: 03 Feb 97  22:17:04
EID:78ea 2243b220
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32f6aa30
RS>I think Ken needs Hooked on Phonics . . . anyone want to
RS>chip in to get it for him and Staalin so that they can
RS>get some remedial reading?

MG>Well, Ken Wino hasn't shown his fundy ass in here for 
MG>months.  I guess he had to go to someother echo and tell 
MG>them how he "kicked their asses in Holysmoke".

MG>The lad needs some self resepct, after all.

Must've been an interesting fellow. I'm new here myself. Yet
in the week or less I've read this echo I've seen quite a
few messages referencing this person. What was he, some kind
of radical "right" Fundi?



___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * A Smith and Wesson beats four aces.

--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Marygoround.
|Date: 03 Feb 97  22:22:06
EID:caaf 2243b2c0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32f6ab5e
PD>That was an event sure, but where did the event come
PD>from? Where is the cause of the Big Bang?

Jd>No one knows that yet...perhaps we may never know.

MG>The eternal hope of the fundy is "god may be around the 
MG>next corner".  It makes no difference to them that we have 
MG>successfully removed god from almost every natural event 
MG>that we know of. Lightening, thunder, earthquakes and all 
MG>the rest are given simple natural explanations.  but these 
MG>guys still want to attribute it to a god.

MG>Some people never learn.

Hmmm...Yes. Perhaps this is why they have retreated to the
Ultimate Cause of the Big Bang type of argument.



___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * A man's got to know his limitations. - Dirty Harry

--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 03 Feb 97  12:44:36
EID:aeee 22436580
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d5b9f8f5
On 01 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:

JB> -1 + +1 = 2

JB> OK.  (Are those right?)
RH> Yes.

OK, onward:

JB> But:   [-1<-----]0[----->+1]  Both -1 and +1 have _width_.  That is,

RH> John, the rule in counting blocks is that you do not count the

(Eh?  Where's _that_ written?  You only have to "not count the starting

block" if you've got a weird block in there you don't _want_ to count, 
like a "zero block"....  (*grin*))

RH> starting block, only the intervening blocks (including the
RH> destination block). So to subtract 3 from 5 we count (4) 1 + (5)
RH> 1 = 2

Hold it.  That is NOT true in addition, eh?  I can't just forget about 
block #1, can I?  If there's a "zero _block_," I _see_ it sitting there,

so I have to count it (like computers do....)  (*grin*)


RH> And to subtract -1 from 1 we count (0) 1 + (1) 1 = 2. If there
RH> is no zero block, our answer is 1, not 2.

JB> So:    [-1<-----]0[----->+1]
JB> ^        ^
JB> [one unit] [one unit] is two units, just as you say, but
JB> there's  no _width_ to the zero; it's just a no-dimension dividing line
JB> between  the beginnings of the two fraction-sets (one the plus, one
the
JB> minus)  going toward plus one and toward minus one.  Eh?

RH> There is no width to any number. 1 is the dividing line between
RH> 0.0 ... to 0.999 ... and 1.0 ... to 1.999 ...

You're being inconsistent here.... If YOU want "zero" to be a block, 
then "1" is a block as well, so which are you defending?  "One" is also

the whole unit inclusive of 0--->.999... (and puhleeze let's not start 
the old "0.999... = 1" argument!).

We can get mixed up here (which I saw possible when I wrote the above) 
between "blocks" == "infinitesimals," and "number" == "continuously 
subdividable without end."


RH> Remember, all we're doing is counting blocks when we add and
JB> subtract.

But to count UP, you don't ignore the first block you see, nor to count

"down" do you, either.  The first block you "subtract" is the block 
you're on:

5 - 3 = 2:

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

(remove [3] [4] [5], starting on #3 or #5, yields:

[1] [2]

(Or remove [1] [2] [3], leaving [4] [5], and count 'em [1] [2]...)

Eh?  No "zero block" is necessary or apparent in "counting," up OR down.

JB> Right, so how does "not a block" (no blocks at all) qualify as a
JB> block? When you have removed the last positive block, you don't have
JB> _any_  positive blocks ('zero').  When you remove the last negative
JB> block, you  have _no_ negative blocks (again 'zero').  If you had a
JB> "zero block,"  you'd still _have_ a block, in either case, and I don't
JB> think you could  defend either "0 = 1 block" or "0 = -1 block"....
JB> (*grin*)

RH> You still have the zero block, which can't be touched! Zero is a
RH> block (number) used to represent a quantity (none). You HAVE to
RH> HAVE it.

(?) perhaps I see the problem?  You call a "block" a _number_?  The 
block is not the number, to me; it is the _thing_ the 'number' is a 
symbol _for_.

You seem to have switched (from my viewpoint) what is the "real thing" 
and what is the _symbol_.  The _block_ is the "real thing," and the 
"number" is the "label" (the symbol) of(for) the "real thing."

Total lack of thingness AT ALL, has the _symbol_: "0."  When I deal with

"points" of zero dimensions, I am not dealing with "points called 
zeroes"; the _points_ are the 'real things,' not the dimensions.  There

is no such "thing" as a "nonexistent point" (a "zero block") --the very

idea is ludicrous.  I cannot use the symbol that represents the quantity

"none" (or "no points") as if it, itself, WERE a thing, block, quantity

or point.  See?  (And Robert Curry wonders where I got the idea that 
"standard math" is mostly useless to me in T-verse!  *chuckle*  It uses

a lot of abstract manipulation of _symbols_ for things that don't 
_necessarily_exist_!)

This is the difference: "zero" is a _symbol_ on the printed page.  It is

USED to _represent_ the absence of a quantity (any quantity).  It need 
not _exist_ like either positive or negative things do, all of which are

"real things" that "exist."

(This goes to what I said to Robert: when you count (shoes-in-my- 
closet), you count backwards _within_a_category_ ('s-i-m-c').  BUT, when

you have the last shoe in front of you, and remove it, not _just_ the 
shoe disappears, but the WHOLE CATEGORY disappears.  By removing the 
last item in the set, you eliminate the ENTIRE SET; the set itself 
ceases to exist.  IOW, 'a set with no members' is a contradiction-in- 
terms.  "The empty set" exists only as a mathematical abstraction: while

in every case that at least one object exists (hence the set, or 
category, of that object exists), if NO objects exist to _define_ that 
category--that set-- (as: "the set of all 'x'," etc.), then the set 
_itself_ does not exist.)

Please understand that I am heavily interested in what DOES EXIST; I 
have little patience with mathematical games about what does NOT exist.

"Zero" in most cases represents a state of non-reality--of non-existence

(of a set-member, an object, a set itself, 'etsetera').  I understand 
your positions (I understand Roger's, Herman Trivilino's, Peter Diehr's,

etc.); I just either 1) find many of them useless to apply to a posited

_reality_, or 2) disagree (usually for the same reason).  I have 
precious little time to play mathematical games for abstract amusement.

I want to play them ONLY if they have some reasonable chance of helping

me to understand the reality _I_am_IN_....  ...And "a block called 
'zero'" makes about as much sense to me as "a fish called 'Wanda'."  
Names only; nothing "real" is being revealed to me thereby.




Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  leggo my ego
|Date: 03 Feb 97  13:32:40
EID:9cd3 22436c00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 44a721c1
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e62
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

JB> Do you have a title --a reference written BY Conway, so's I can
JB> watch him generating the math

RC> See _On Numbers and Games_. See also Knuth's _Surreal Numbers_.

Thank you. I will look....

JB> However, I'm still interested in how _you_ would generate
JB> a math (more properly a topology or geometry) from "NoThing."

RC> Why?

See if you do the same things I would, and/or see if you _can_.


JB> That you disagreed with my points does not make them
JB> 'pointless.' (*grin*)

RC> They somehow manage to be pointless all on their own.

Then, you're not curious about the geotopological object itself, whether

or not it might model something of physics....


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Feb 97  13:50:10
EID:528c 22436e40
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 26fc15c1
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e63
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC> Are you now going to claim that the transfinites are integers?

JB> No.

RC> Good enough. I can always count on you to make some other ridiculous
RC> assertion, anyway -- for instance:

JB> "Infinity" has, as Cantor demonstrated (I've read one about
JB> him, too), many ways of being meddled with, but even Cantor
JB> could not at last escape the conclusion there had to be a sort
JB> of top-level infinity.

RC> I've already been over this once with you, John. Cantor's mystical
RC> beliefs in an "Absolute" (his notion of a god) were not math. He was
RC> aware of the fact that it's easy to prove there's no largest infinity.

It is, yet it's easy to grant one must 'exist': simply that infinity of

which all other infinities are subsets.
That's the crossover point, between metaphysics and uh.... 'other 
things,' like math.  "Infinity" itself isn't a completely mathematical 
thing--it has metaphysical aspects.

JB> My point is that no matter _which_ integer in an infinite set
JB> of integers you pick, it will BE an integer,

RC> OK.

(Gad.  An agreement.  Wonders never cease....)

JB> and there'll be another one just 'up ahead' by adding 1 to it.

RC> Its successor, yes.

(_Two_ agreements in one message.  I must be slipping....)

JB> Thus, in "walking the number linie toward infinity," (and
JB> assuming one starts with the right foot on "zero"), every
JB> left-footed step will be an odd integer, every right-footed
JB> step an even integer.

RC> Fine, but here's where you put your foot in it:

JB> But since we cannot see what "infinity" is, "infinity" is
JB> to us BOTH odd and even.

RC> Nope -- the integers are alternately odd and even. Since "infinity"
RC> is not an integer, it possesses neither of those qualities.

That's what I just said....  (Different words, same meaning)


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  set theory
|Date: 03 Feb 97  13:59:05
EID:0bbd 22436f60
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 73baff30
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e64
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC>  JB>> I thought "zero" was _defined_as_ "the empty set"?

RC> You were mistaken. Zero and the empty set are two different
RC> things. Zero is however the _cardinality_ of the empty set.

JB> I saw your post to Al.

RC> Did you learn anything from it?

Yeah; you don't treat Al any better'n you treat _me_.
(*chuckle*)  At least you're consistent....

JB> The "empty set" is, (is it not?), the usual 'starting concept'
JB> --the POOFed-from-nothing original fundamental-most idea
JB> of set theory?

RC> No, John.
RC> Open a book on elementary set theory and see for yourself, lazy boy.

What, _more_ incorrectness from the guys over there??  The above was a 
paraphrase of Darryl Gregorash's response to one of mine.  He even 
-agreed- that there had to be at least one _metaphysical_, axiomatic 
"statement," devoid of any support whatsoever except its statement-ness

--its axiomatic character, behind any mathematical system.  He said "the

empty set" was that concept, in set theory.  Wrong?  Why?  Most 
'fundamental' axioms are simple, so why not just TELL me what's wrong 
with what I said?


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  infinitesimals
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:05:13
EID:2809 224370a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 65687c34
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e65
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

JB> Please then tell me why all the flap over the origins of the
JB> calculus? It seems that Leibniz and Newton proposed
JB> infinitesimals --a minimum-possible increment of thingness
JB> (of divisibility), thus positing a math that required a minimum
JB> individualized entity,

RC> Thus positing no such thing, as an infinitesimal is by no means
RC> "a minimum individualized entity" -- that's one thing that you just
RC> can't get through your skull, isn't it?

My skull's busy keeping balderdash out of my brain.

What is the practical difference between "the smallest possible NONZERO

number," and "a minimum-possible increment of thingness"--an 
"individualized entity?"  Is a number not a thing --not an entity?  Is a

specific number not an individualized number?  Are there numbers on the

number line which are identical?  (no.)

You're too much like me; sometimes I think you like to argue an opposite

position merely to see if you can find a way around an otherwise 
logically sensible argument.

JB> but the calculus seems mostly to have had its creation powered
JB> by a need to get AWAY from that reastriction

RC>  If you want lessons, send me a billing address.

Firgetit.  With you as teacher, I'd learn how best to argue against 
_anything_ in math, and I'd probably learn more of the art of the put- 
down, neither of which is useful to me.

RC> The reason infinitesimals were not used in the historic development
RC> of calculus is because infinitesimal analysis had to be developed
RC> first in order to use them. That had not yet occurred, although
RC> both Newten and Leibniz intuitively realized infinitesimals could
RC> be used eventually, once mathematicians figured out how.

RC> Thus, calculus was developed using other means that were already
RC> available at the time, or which could be developed with much less
RC> trouble than a rigorous infinitesimal analysis (there is always
RC> more than just one way to do something in math).

OK.  Don't expect to get paid for that....

JB> IN dividing the range [1,2] into, say, decimal increments
JB> (.5, .25, .125,...,.n) there would be a SUBinfinite number

RC> Could 'finite' be the word you're looking for?

I wasn't looking for it.  But, sorry.  Yes.  Habit caused me to avoid 
"finite," since I'm used to dealing with a few _just_ 'subinfinite' 
items.  That is, "finite" can be anything between nothing and just short

of infinity, but my "writer's mind" feels "subinfinite" implies 
something closer  to the infinite than to nothing.  Perhaps not.  
"Finite" would do for us, but not for T-verse, in relation to which I 
find myself preferring "subinfinite" (most often with the qualifier 
"_just_."

JB> of increments in a math based on infinitesimals,

RC> You don't even know what an infinitesimal is, John, so why do you

I know _several_ infinitesimals.  A couple are "the smallest possible 
nonzero number," and "the least-possible increment of thingness, short 
of NO-Thing-ness."  My point was clear: between "0" and "1" (and between

any two consecutive numbers) is an _infinite_ range of other numbers, 
none of which is < the smaller, or > the larger, IF the number line is a

continuous entity.  However, if there IS an infinitesimal number--if the

number line is treated as composed of _discrete_ entities, then the 
number of numbers between any two consecutive numbers is _finite_.


RC> persist in babbling thusly? It would be easier for all concerned
RC> if rather than making up ridiculous terms or misappropriating terms
RC> that are already defined differently than what you mean, you were
RC> simply to state the properties of what you wish to describe, and
RC> ask if there's a term for such a thing. That would help you increase
RC> your mathematical vocabulary in a more trustworthy manner.


Maybe, maybe not.  I'm learning new categories, anyway.  I used to have

a category that had "lawyers," "doctors," and "priests" in it.  I 
suspect it'll end up having "mathematicians" in it as well....


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  "IS NOT"
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:28:50
EID:f870 22437380
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 b9702cac
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e66
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC>  JB>> It was precisely Leibniz' curiosity about an infinitesimal
RC>  JB>> increment (a NONcontinuous idea)

RC> Infinitesimals, as Leibniz applied them intuitively, are quite
RC> continuous, actually. Now if you had said nonarchimedean.... :-)

JB> AAaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgh!
JB> Please demonstrate that infinitesimals, "as Leibniz applied them
JB> intuitively" are "quite continuous?"

RC> Please demonstrate first that you understand the definitions of both
RC> "infinitesimal" and "continuous."

Nah:  I asked you first.



JB> these "standard math" guys won't let me CALL it a point.

RC> The blind leading the blind.

With that, I may be forced to agree.  However, it'll take some doing.  
I'd watch a 'what is math?'-type argument between you and Peter Diehr 
with interest, I'm sure....

JB> You don't seem to realize that if a concept structure does not
JB> already exist in a codified form, one cannot USE an existing
JB> codified-form concept structure to speak about it.

RC> You don't seem to realize that your crackpot notions do not use
RC> novel mathematical ideas -- but that's because you are ignorant

Baloney.  A point-without-a-background is apparently not a 'usual' 
mathematical idea.  Nor is a network without a coordinate system it's 
embedded in.  These are not "novel," perhaps, but they aren't easily 
seen to be 'standard,' either.


JB> One can try to _translate_, sure, but if there's something
JB> about the new paradigm that does _not_ translate (because the
JB> older peradigm has not considered that thing),

RC> It takes quite an ego to believe you have some revolutionary idea
RC> when you aren't familiar with even the tiniest fraction of the

"...even the Tiniest fraction?"  It does not help my ability to trust 
your information, when you so thoughtlessly indulge in "all-or-nothing"

phrasing.  Fundies do a lot of that.  I don't trust _them_, either.

I have no revolutionary idea.  I have slight modifications, mostly 
conceptual, to long-standing geometric ones, which, when presented, 
cause major arguments with some people.


RC> Perhaps it's a pleasant self-delusion for you, John. Is it?

It may be.  Even if so, I know beyond a _shadow_ of a doubt that I 
cannot get any "deeper" or more fundamental than the abstract ideation I

start the whole thing off with, so delusion or not, I'm stuck with it.

I don't believe anyone else can get it any simpler or deeper either, and

while that _reads_ as egotism, it remains to be seen whether or not it 
actually is.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  source of info
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:42:13
EID:d7a4 22437540
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 8207e7b9
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e67
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC> I'm interested in seeing whether the mistake is yours or
RC> Berlinski's (elsewhere you claim that he doesn't know the
RC> correct spelling of Leibniz, odd for someone writing of
RC> the man's historical contributions).

It's worse: new info is that D. Berlinski, while supposedly an expert in

_math_, has written an anti-type book about evolution, in which he is 
said to make some pretty gross errors of understanding.

That's not necessarily a condemnation of his ability IN his field (we 
all know what kind of stupid things CAN result from specialists writing

outside their expertise), but it doesn't help matters any when I'm 
trying to use him as a clear thinker even in his own field.


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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  crackpots and concepts
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:45:47
EID:1c75 224375a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 259141aa
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2a0f8e68
On 01 Feb 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC>  JB>> "Zero" is a "number," as defined by mathematicians

RC> Again, just FYI, the quotes are not necessary in the above.

JB> (*chuckle*)  Yes they are.  I yield only to absolute refutation,
JB> nor provide I evidence of yielding before that time.

RC> So go to your grave a futile crackpot, Mr. Dumpty.

I'll be in good company, Mr. King's man.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  The Alignment List, part
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:47:54
EID:f8e4 224375e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 0073a44b
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a00f5794
On 01 Feb 97, Katherine Wintersnight wrote:


KW> *John Brawley    ???                 Amateur Creationism    Same old
KW>                                      Scientist and Quantum stuff
KW>                                      Bait Shoppe operator


Eureka, MO.           Amateur ANTI-
creationism
scientist, 


(fall for whatever bullshit
taglines you care to,
Katherine....)

Quantum
panentheism


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... WARNING!  Evolution may be hazardous to your Ego.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  QG test
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:52:22
EID:6146 22437680
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 02cbdc58
On 02 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:

RH> John, yesterday was the first lottery drawing in February. I bought
RH> two random number selection tickets.

RH> Guess what.?!

RH> I lost.

RH> The prize was $11,000,000.00

RH> 

(*grin*)  What'd you expect?  Try some penny stocks with those pennies 
you're spending.

If you're gonna do at _all_ better, you'll have to "dream up" the 
numbers you use, and I mean that _literally_.  Lucidity helps.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Gravity...always gets me down....

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  RE: HYPOCRITICAL PEOPLE
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:28
EID:ddd5 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 30 Jan 97 08:45pm, JONATHAN FINGAS wrote to DON MARTIN:

JF>   At least by the Bible's definition, the existence of Satan is all
JF>   around you.  People who murder, lie, cheat and steal are everywhere,
JF>   and that's supposed to be what Mr. Evil does best.
JF>   Also, events such as the Amityville Horror are a little TOO real to
JF>   deny his existence.  If you recall, the family that was living there
JF>   had to LEAVE because the house was quite literally going nuts.

Reality check time, dipshit. The Amityville Horror was a work of FICTION.
Of course, with that fundy mindset of yours, I'm sure you can't discern
the
difference between fantasy and reality.

Becke

... Possessor of a mind not merely twisted but actually sprained.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 290
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   All
|Sub:  FAQ!!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:29
EID:2555 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub:  RE: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:31
EID:674e 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 30 Jan 97 04:31am, DARRYL GONZALEZ wrote to FREDRIC RICE:

DG>      Wake up and smell the coffee, pal.  Even many non-Christian
DG>      psychologists are now beginning to embrace the concept of sin
DG>      being at the root of many psy chological problems people face
DG>      today.  For example, see Dr. Karl Menninger's excellent work,

Reality check time, Darryl. Non-Christians don't subscribe to the concept
of
sin. What is this Dr. Menninger's religious affiliation?

DG>      WHATEVER BECAME OF SIN?.  Many people, Christian and non-Christian
DG>      alike, are beginning to realize that all have sinned and fall s
DG>      hort of God's glory.

Christians, perhaps, buy into the whole guilt trip of "sin", but I doubt
you
could garner even ONE non-Christian who believes the above.

FR>>  Trying to excuse yourself for failing to adhear to what you claim
to
FR>>  believe in.  Do you cut your hair?  Eat pork?  Ever have a woman
FR>>  teacher?  Wear mixed fibres?   Christanic death cultists are always
FR>>  trying to rationalize-away why they disobey their deity constructs.
FR>>
DG>      Please show me where Christians are forbidden to cut their hair
or
DG>      eat pork.  And yes, Paul did teach that men should not have women

The pork reference can be found in Leviticus 4:7

"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he
cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you."

The hair reference can be found in Leviticus 19:27

"Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the
corners of thy beard."

Becke

... What do bunnies do at a Pagan Festival?  Take notes.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 288
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub:  RE: YOU FORGOT TO ANSWER
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:32
EID:f76a 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 30 Jan 97 04:42am, DARRYL GONZALEZ wrote to FREDRIC RICE:

FR>>  Why does anyone need to be "saved?"

DG> Because all have sinned, and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:23).
DG> Here i s the clear picture from Scripture:

DG> 1.  God created humanity, and desires to have fellowship with us
DG> forever. 2.  Humans are free moral agents, and can choose to follow
God
DG> or not. 3.  By choosing to follow God, and doing so, we can have that
DG> fellowship with Him both in this life and afterward.
DG> 4.  By not choosing to follow God, or by choosing not to follow God,
we
DG> deprive ourselves of His partnership in life.
DG> 5.  Once we choose to follow God, we turn our backs on the way we lived
DG> in sin in the world.  When we put our faith in God, our sins are
DG> cleansed from us by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Taking the above one at a time:

1. First of all, provide concrete evidence that we were in fact created
by an
external diety. Hardcore scientific evidence, dipshit..the Bible doesn't
apply. Secondly, if we *were* created by a diety, why would said deity have
a need for fellowship with mere humans? Were we created as his playthings?

2. In order for there to be such a thing as free will, there has to be no
coercion on either side. According to your bible, the penalty for NOT
choosing your God is eternal hellfire and damnation. Please define where
the
"free" is in any of that? And, if Christianity is worthy enough to be
considered as a belief system, why would we need any incentive/threat of
punishment to follow it?

3. First, provide concrete evidence of an afterlife. Secondly, how sure
are
you that *you* are going to get into that Heaven of his?

4. Why would someone want to spend their life with an evil, cruel,
misogynistic, spoiled brat such as your God?

5. Does this supposed forgiveness apply to all sins?? So, in essence, what
you're saying is no matter how you lived before (i.e. if you were a murderer,
or a child molestor, or a rapist), just by saying the word, your actions
are
justified and you don't have to face any of the consequences of your actions?
Some sense of responsibility you've got there, bozo.

DG> Fredric, it is essential that you understand this.  At the end of this
DG> life, you will have to face God as your judge.  He can either be your

DG> Savior or the person who casts you into hell.  It's your choice, man.


And what if Fred chooses not to go to hell? We have free will, remember.

Becke

... Pro-life? Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 288
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  RE: HYPOCRITICAL FINGAS
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:32
EID:cdd7 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 31 Jan 97 10:12am, MARK KIMES wrote to DAVID RICE:

JF>>> A messiah is supposed to save his people

DR>> "I don't know who's telling you lies, but they have to
DR>> stop. You must belong to one of those cults which recruits
DR>> extremely gullible people." A messiah is "one who crys
DR>> 'the "Kingdon of God" is at hand.'"

MK> Actually...

MK> messiah. A leader who is regarded as or professes to be a savior or
MK> liberator.

Hmm...sounds a bit like Koresh or Jim Jones, doesn't it??

Becke

... Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 288
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  RE: PEDOPHILE CHRISTIAN C
|Date: 05 Feb 97  05:32:33
EID:51b6 22452c00
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 29 Jan 97 04:25pm, JIM STAAL wrote to FREDRIC RICE:

em>> Lon Mabon breathes a little easier today, knowing that, for a
em>> little while, people's attention will be diverted away from
em>> him and his thus-far well-concealed NAMBLA membership.

FR>> "Mabon" is actually Jim Staal -- it's one of his racist personalities.

JS> Uh...I admit to using 'Lon S. Mabon' as an alias at one point (just
to
JS> assist in getting your personal goat)

Sure, Jim, sure...we believe you. (not!)

Becke


... I am never led astray, I just choose the path of least morality.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 288
* Silver Xpress V4.01

--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Edward Tushar
|To:   All
|Sub:  Believing vs Nonbelieving
|Date: 05 Feb 97  08:05:00
EID:bea1 224540a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:157/554.0 32f83f2b
TID: GE/32 1.2
Just a little curious as to the nature of the bashing in here.  Do
people bash the others that believe in God or do you bash those that try
to jam it down others throats?  Now, I do believe in God, but that is
something that I cannot prove nor will attempt to.  But I also do not 
spend my free time trying to convince others they are wrong and need to
believe.  To me, it is a personal choice.  My brother was at the tender
age
of 13 a complete psychotic.  He tried to kill himself.  Then he went into
therapy for about 5 years and now he is completely on the other side of
the fence.  He does nothing but preach his faith to me.  After a few battles,
he now knows not to preach to me.  I have this theory that most of the people
that are 'saved' and preach have some very traumatic past histories.  Anyhow,
I enjoy discussion, but hope I don't get any artillery rounds because I
believe
in God.  Look forward to some discussions.  And, just out of curiosity,
is 
Steve Winters still around?  I remember getting into some heated debates
with
him a few years ago.

Ed


... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
--- Bink/Max/GE 1.20 Pro
* Origin: Analytical Engine CBCS * 28.8k BPS * [216] 942-3876 (1:157/554)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Smegma Staalin
|Date: 04 Feb 97  19:39:13
EID:14d4 22449ce0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 7c758c23
REPLY: 1:3603/210 29e52ee4
On (31 Jan 97) ROBERT CURRY babbled to RICHARD SMITH...

js> Promise Keepers is organizing

RS> Shouldn't that be `are organizing' rather than `is
RS> organizing?'  Or is Jimson speaking Eubonics?  The failed
RS> English Major strikes again . . .

RC> No, that grammar is quite standard, taking "Promise Keepers"
RC> as a singular entity.

RC> Will you next be informing me that "mathematics" is plural
RC> because it too ends in an 's'? Or how about the United States
RC> of America?


But, of course!  So's "jackass."


... Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Goodbye /3 (2)
|Date: 04 Feb 97  19:46:51
EID:3641 22449dc0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 e00354b8
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 749060e2
On (31 Jan 97) Martin Goldberg babbled to Richard Smith...

RS>  I have a friend that has it AND Adrenal Cancer.  He's about
RS>  thirty-five, and claims that he thinks he's got about ten
RS>  years or less left . . .

MG> Is he certain it's lupus?  SLE is very rare in men.

Interesting.  Do you know why?

(Parenthetically, it is, I believe, more common for a
malady to be confined to men, than it is to find one
that is confined to women, excepting conditions that
are confined exclusively to female sex organs, of course.)


... Kill:  It's not just a good idea, it's God's law!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Doug Lee
|To:   Sue Armstrong
|Sub:  A God
|Date: 04 Feb 97  06:52:18
EID:5396 22443680
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32f75c1f
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32f204bd
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Rod Swift <=-


SA> Razor's gonna die.  He's got the same card I'm trolling for, and it
SA> cost him $300 about 3 years ago .

And who's Razor??



--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: The Avatar
|To:   Leonard Bernier
|Sub:  Psalm 69:4 / John 15:25
|Date: 04 Feb 97  08:48:10
EID:b088 22444600
MSGID: 1:342/1.2 32f6f96e
Good Morning, Leonard!

Friday January 31 1997 13:31, Leonard Bernier wrote to All:

LB>                          PRAISE GOD !

...For What?

LB> PROPHECY: - The Messiah will be hated without a cause.
LB> Those who hate me without a cause are more then the hairs of my
LB> head.

...Wrong!  Your god knows nothing.  He is hated, along with his bastard
son,
because of all the pain, horror and misery that have been, and still are,
heaped upon mankind by ignorant, self-serving people using his name(s).

LB> FULFILLMENT: But this happened that the word might be fulfilled
LB> which is written in their law, "They hated Me without a cause."

...And for this obvious piece of logic, we should abase ourselves?  Better
to
worship your mother who actually gave you life, and suckled you at her breast
without thought for herself!

Josef Berg
"The Avatar"
Sysop:  The Dream Weaver Point


--- GoldED 2.42.G0614

--- GoldED 2.42.G0614
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|From: The Avatar
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  CheckMate
|Date: 04 Feb 97  09:40:46
EID:77cd 22444d00
MSGID: 1:342/1.2 32f706a1
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 0756d30d
Good Morning, Marilyn!

Sunday February 02 1997 14:41, Marilyn Burge wrote to David Ragland:

DR>> I long for the return of the days
DR>> when there were women (and children for that matter) with an
DR>> air of innocence about them.

...More of the old style of, "Women and children were made to be seen and
not
heard," bulls shit.  How nice, let's go back to the time when women and
children were property, a time when the only way a woman could elevate or
even
keep her status was to marry.  Yup, it even states this kind of thinking
in
the Holy Babble.

DR>> Days when people in general
DR>> did not go about talking like drunken sailors
DR>> with Tourette's syndrome.

....Yup, a time when the Earth was flat, non-whites were animals, women
were
property.  A time when water and washing with it was something to be feared.
A
time when alcohol and violence was the answer to everything.

DR>> Women with these qualities are
DR>> far more attractive to the type of men that will treat you
DR>> with respect. Something for you and Marilyn and all women to
DR>> think about...

...That's right, Marilyn, strap on that corset, paint your face, pin up
your
hair, always walk two paces behind your man, never talk back, pump out babies
like a human sprinkler.  Really attractive to me.  Hell it would reduce
the
noise factor by half.  Silencing women and putting them back in the kitchen
and thier backs would certainly be attractive to many men.

Josef Berg


--- GoldED 2.42.G0614

--- GoldED 2.42.G0614
* Origin: The Dream Weaver Point, Alberta (1:342/1.2)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  the promise keepers
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:46:38
EID:7641 2244bdc0
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 9cf05f1f
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f7cab0
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Jim Staal to Rod Swift:

JS>  You are merely a blatant liar evidencing only his own ignorance and

JS> penchant for shooting of his mouth with nothing to back it up with,

JS> fact-wise.

You have just provided the job description of any ordained minister.

Most fundies do it, but ministers get paid for it.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:49:32
EID:bc50 2244be20
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 980effb4
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f7cb70
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
KY>> Oh, I agree completely..  However, at least with Koresh, he never
KY>> claimed to be the Messiah.

JS> I was under the impression (from reading much about the man and his
JS> claims - he attracted my attention by being a musician and
JS> songwriter) that he claimed to be God incarnate.

And here you've been telling us you read nothing but the bible,
using that as an excuse to have never seen the black-and-white
part of a dictionary.

So Koresh never claimed to be a messiah, but some of his followers
thought he must have been. Sound familiar?

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Pedophile Christian cooks / NAMBLA
|Date: 05 Feb 97  00:48:34
EID:fa71 22450600
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 a624f43e
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f7d8e2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
JS> For one, I don't think Mabon is a Calvinist. :) Also, articles
JS> appearing in the official publication of the church (The Banner) take
JS> just the opposite approach of mister Mabon concerning gay issues.

Excellent. When can be expect the first ordained gay minister? Before
or after the first female?

DH>> What I did to determine the validity of the CRC
DH>> high schools was to call the university where I teach and ask them
DH>> how many students had ever in 30 years been accepted from CRC high
DH>> schools. This isn't scientific, but it is the university one of my
DH>> kids wants to attend. Answer: zero.

JS>  And that university is...? Relevance?

Trent University, Canada.

The relevance is that a private xtian twelfth grade education
qualifies you to work at General Motors if you are exceedingly
lucky and happen to be one of the accepted 5,000 applicants that
compete every year for 40 jobs. It does not qualify you to
pursue a decent education.

DH>> What evidence do you have that parochial schools can, even on
DH>> average, graduate students equally prepared as public school
DH>> students for real universities? I don't mean CRC seminaries, I mean
DH>> accredited universities who offer degrees sufficient to enter
DH>> graduate school.

JS>  That can be obtained. The evidence that I have seen suggests that in

JS> West Michigan, the education receive in our schools consistantly 
JS> surpasses that of the local public schools.

No, that is your opinion. It is evidence in no way whatsoever. Evidence
would include the percentage of students who have duly earned 
postgraduate degrees compared with the percentage of students from
the public system.

I have yet to see a separate school whose supporters failed to 
believe their students exceeded average standards, when in fact
there is zero evidence to support this. We're not talking about
something that may have happened six thousand years ago here. This
can be measured. 

I have asked the principal of the local CRC high school for these
figures, and imagine! He has to look them up and get back to me.
How could he not even know?

I personally don't accept claims that either home schooling or
parochial schooling comes even close to matching the standards
of the pathetic public systems. If you have any evidence to the
contrary, I'll be happy to hear it.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Feb 97  00:05:32
EID:37a3 224500a0
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 3b5b9e0a
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f7cf4d
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH>> Do the laws of the bible equal the laws of the land?

JS>  Obviously not or we wouldn't be murdering helpless infants by the 
JS> millions annually...

Yes, well, hmmm.

DH>> Should they?

JS>  As a Christian, I say definitly. As an American, I have to say no.
I 
JS> would rather have God bring about a moral revival in the hearts of
JS> the  people than have Congress legislate our personal lives.

It looks like you're saying that your sense of American community
is more important to your behaviour than your sense of Christian
morality. That you will abide by the law of the land if you have
to choose. Is that right?

DH>> Do you have the balls to state your position?

JS>  Obviously.

Yes, thanks.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Phd=Professional Hiway Driver
|Date: 03 Feb 97  14:51:40
EID:c3fb 22437660
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81baf
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  14:39:46 Dave Hamilton wrote to Marilyn Burge...

MB> No wonder used car salesmen are so successful at their jobs!

DH> Amazing, isn't it? I used to think of these people as shallow
DH> until I began to consider the depth of their ignorance. I'm
DH> still waiting for the sound of the pebble hitting bottom with
DH> this ace.

It isn't the ignorance that surprises me, it's the pride in it!

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Another Virgin Birth
|Date: 03 Feb 97  15:56:26
EID:e9ec 22437f00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  10:52:12 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS>  Hmmm. That she gave a HYMN OF PRAISE to God afterwards for?
AS>  There was no violence. Nor is there ANY indication that such was
AS>  displeasing to her, EVEN THOUGH it almost caused her fiance to quietly
AS>  divorce her. She didn't even have the slightest idea she was pregnant.

Jd> Your evidence for that is?

AS> The only source we have about ANY knowledge of Mary---the Gospels
AS> . If you want to say the whole thing was a fairy tale, feel free.

MOTHER                       SON

Mary                         Jesus
Maia                         Buddha
Maia                         Hermes
Maya                         Agni
Myrrha                       Adonis
Myrrha                       Bacchus
Maya Maria                   Sommona Cadom
(Siamese Saviour)
Mariama                      Krishna

Not only is it a failry tale, it is a PLAGIARIZED fairy tale.
See list above for the earlier myths from which your Jesus/Mary myth's
'Mary' was cloned.

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Rich and famous
|Date: 03 Feb 97  16:10:20
EID:3203 22438140
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb1
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  14:14:42 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

Jd> If Prince charles walked in, you'd have a hard time prying their
Jd> tongues from his ass. If the worst dictator arrived, they'd be
Jd> 'honoured'. God's reperesentative Billy Graham was best friends with
Jd> Richard "I am not a crook" Nixon.

AS> Jesse Jackson...also a preacher...wasn't.

You expected Nixon to have _black_ friends?

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  SETI
|Date: 03 Feb 97  16:11:40
EID:9907 22438160
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  14:16:16 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS> Communication; the Bible; think about it.

Jd> Communication; Tarot Cards, chicken entrails; seances; Dianetics;
Jd> the bible; the koran; book of mormon; tea leaves; thin kabout it.

AS> "Thin". Then I need to diet?

You need to thin k about it.

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Shrouded in Mystery
|Date: 03 Feb 97  16:12:52
EID:8710 22438180
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  14:19:06 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

Jd> Because the 'spiritual experiences' of others are frauds and
Jd> deceptions of the church. The shroud of Turin. The vial of 'blood of
Jd> christ' that congeals every easter. The ailing pope who avoids Lourdes
Jd> and Benny Hinn.

AS> Maybe not always. Although I agree there is a great deal of fraud
AS> .

Jd> Why not build on the human experience of helping others.

AS> A good idea. But one which men were too prone NOT to do...without
AS> a little encouragement.

The nature of many men _was_ to help each other. The early American
Colonists wouldn't have survived the first winter without the native's
help. But, being christians, look how they repaid them!
Religion has imposed its mental illness on humanity. Instead
of turning to each other, they are conditioned to look to an imaginary
'friend', while competing for the 'most greedy' position at the top of
the pyriamid, and turning a cold shoulder to each other.
Religion, as you very well know, is a divisive force, not a cohesive
one. Hence, the current attempts to fractionate and destroy the public
school system.

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 03 Feb 97  16:25:34
EID:5afc 22438320
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb4
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 28 Jan 97  19:22:00 Ken Young wrote to Jan deBoer...

KY> The body must be ours, but perhaps if we let God guide our
KY> thinking a little more, this would be a better place.

Jd> That's been tried already - the period known as "THE DARK AGES".

KY> Well, what are we in now, the "age of enlightenment?"

The "age of enlightenment" is behind us, and religion is trying for a
return to the dark ages.
Ever noticed, Ken, that the voices telling us how evil and sinful our
society has become, are the same ones proclaiming we live in a
Judaeo-Chrisitan society, and that as the number of Churches increase,
things seem to get worse?

.JdB

... I'm using a lousy 80486
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   All
|Sub:  God's Promises
|Date: 04 Feb 97  20:54:32
EID:a782 2244a6c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb5
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
MARTYRDOM OF JOHN HUSS, IN VIOLATION OF A SOLEMN COMPACT.

John Huss was an eminent Reformer, at the commencement of the 15th
century, long before the time of Luther. He boldly rebuked the
corruptions of the Church of Rome, and especially vindicated the right
of the laity to receive the cup in the celebration of the Lord's Supper.
He was therefore denounced as a heretic. Pope John XXII, A.D. 1410,  a
monster of iniquity, and afterwords deposed by the Council of Constance
for his crimes, expelled Huss from the communion of the Church, - an act
which was treated with contempt by that Reformer. In the year 1415,
however, Huss was summoned before the council of Constance. He hesitated
to obey; but having received from the Emporer Sigismund a SAFE CONDUCT,
or promise that he should be unhurt; he went to the council; and yet,
DESPITE OF THAT PROMISE, was burnt to ashes on the 6th July 1415!
The Emperor was at first opposed to the violation of the compact into
which he had entered with Huss; but the Council of Constance overruled
his scruples, and passed the following decree, which, in effect,
proclaims THAT NO FAITH IS TO BE KEPT WITH HERETICS: -
"The holy synod of Constance declares, concerning every safe conduct
granted by the emperor, kings, and other temporal princes, to heretics,
or persons accused of heresy, in hopes of reclaiming them, that it
ought not to be of any prejudice to the Catholic faith, or
ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nor to hinder but that such persons may
and ought to be examined, judged, and punished, according as justice
shall require, if those heretics shall refuse to revoke their errors,
ALTHOUGH THEY SHALL HAVE COME TO THE PLACE OF JUDGEMENT RELYING ON
THEIR SAFE CONDUCT, and without which they would not have come thither;
and this person who shall have promised them security, SHALL NOT, IN
THIS CASE, BE OBLIGED TO KEEP HIS PROMISE, BY WHATEVER TIE HE MAY HAVE
BEEN ENGAGED, when he has done all that is in his power to do. -
Sac. Co. Labbei et Cossart, session xix. Lutet. Paris


... I'm using a lousy 80486
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   All
|Sub:  Liar Appleton
|Date: 03 Feb 97  18:00:22
EID:22e0 22439000
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb6
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 02 Feb 97  09:12:00 Laurie Appleton wrote to Jan Deboer...

LA> Hi Jan.
LA> (Re: yours of 22-Jan-1997, "Answer the Question!")

JD>  On 21 Jan 97, Laurie Appleton wrote to Rod Swift...

RS>  Are you admitting that creationism is not part of the
RS> sciences now?

LA> Just the opposite. It is more likely the ONLY scientific
LA> journal, since the so-called "reputable scientific Journals"
LA> are really no more than "evolutionary propaganda rags" and
LA> the myth spinners of evolutionary fairy tales!

JD>     Speaking of fairy tales, Laurie, tell us again of your
JD> walk around Mt. St. Helens with "former President Harry
JD> Truman" A DECADE AFTER HE DIED!

LA> Well, if I was with Harry Truman when he died, then how do
LA> you think I have managed to write all these messages?

JD> Can you say 'pathological liar' Laurie?

LA> Yes,  Evolutionist!

LA> Laurie

LA> -!- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
LA> ! Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38036821 V34 +Node 1 (3:640/238)

HEY EVERYBODY - GET A LOAD OF THE ABOVE!!!!!!!

Laurie Appleton, the most brazen liar in Australia!
Notice how she NOW says "Harry Truman", instead of "former President
Harry Truman"!!!
Notice how she NOW says "*if* I was with Harry Truman"!!
Notice how EVEN IN THIS MESSAGE SHE TWISTS WHAT I SAID!
"with former President Harry Truman a decade after he died" becomes:

"if I was with Harry Truman when he died"

Anyone who enters into a discourse  with this LIAR is wasting their time
and bandwidth. He does set a fine example for "Creation Science"
, though.


... This message is prepared in wsOMR v1.20b, simply the best.
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  A toast to dracula
|Date: 04 Feb 97  20:56:28
EID:a5f0 2244a700
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  23:44:26 Ken Young wrote to Jan deBoer...

Jd> Symbolic of christian cannibilism?

Jd> I wonder why people have trouble seeing the sense and logic in that?

KY> Maybe because you don't understand it..
KY> It is simply symbols to remember what Christ did for us.
KY> WHat's so ddifficult?  We are all sinners, so to save us from sin
KY> , Jesus bought us a chance for eternal freedom.  And Christians
KY> remember this, during communion.

You seem to be the one who doesn't understand it. 'Jesus' is really
'god', who is the axehole who _took away_ 'eternal freedom' in the
first place. Can't you get your own religious mythology straight?

KY> ANd it doesn't have to be on a regular basis.  ALl up to the
KY> indiviudals..

Depends on the vintage being served, does it?

.JdB

... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Bacteria and Slime
|Date: 04 Feb 97  17:35:44
EID:6444 22448c60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb8
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  22:39:28 Ken Young wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS>  Yep. Do you have a better suggestion for how to test whether prayer
AS>  actually works or not?

Jd> Cancel your health insurance, and see Benny Hinn.

KY> WHy Benny Hinn?  He has nothing to do with it..  It is the power
KY> of God, not the power of Hinn..

God doesn't seem to show up in hospitals.

... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Confirmed miracles
|Date: 04 Feb 97  20:57:22
EID:a290 2244a720
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bb9
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 02 Feb 97  19:44:30 Richard Smith wrote to Don Martin...

DM> And just what "scientists" might these be? Names, please, and
DM> the peer-reviewed journal in which they published their data*.
JF> There have been reports in the news of paintings of Mary crying.
DM> And the Hindus have several statues of an Elephant God of theirs
DM> that does the same thing, only with tears of milk. There is a lot of
DM> that going around this season.
RS>
RS> The Deity in question, Ganesa or Ganesh, really shouldn't be
RS> weeping tears of MILK.  Considering the tales of his drunken
RS> driving (he rides a rat) through the streets of various
RS> cities, milk should be the LAST thing flowing from him.  

The crying Mary painting:.....the Priest of the
Greek church (in Toronto) seems to be followed by these paintings.
Certainly came at an opportune time - the small parish was in
a financial crisis. James Randhi wasn't allowed to examine the painting
closely, or check the back of it (mustn't spoil a good cash cow,
must we?). There ARE those who would cast aspersions on the priest
involved, but who could not trust a man whose previous employment
was in a brothel? As for the elephant god, he/she/it wasn't _crying_
milk tears, but rather slurping up bowls of milk offered to it. That
miracle seems to have lost popularity quickly, but a new one has come to
light in a (Hindu?) home, where a painting is shedding miraculous ashes.

I, too, have a miracle in my home....dust appears magically from
nowhere, and settles on the furniture. Clean it off, and, next time you
look, its back!

.JdB

* Fearing dismissal, Igor keeps silent about the tanker of holy water
inadvertantly sent to the nuclear power plant.

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  death
|Date: 04 Feb 97  21:00:58
EID:63b4 2244a800
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bba
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  12:43:04 Al Schroeder wrote to ROBERT CURRY...

AS> Anyone who claims to be a believer and claims to understand
AS> all the whys and wherefores of the Incarnation, Crucifixion,
AS> and Resurrection has a bigger ego than I.

There's no shortage of ego amongst beleivers - after all, what else have
they got to go on?

.JdB

*Nightly, Sister Mary locked up the sacred Bingo equipment.


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Educational Experience
|Date: 04 Feb 97  21:16:14
EID:1b77 2244aa00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bbb
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  12:49:50 Jim Staal wrote to Rod Swift...

JS> And you, sir, are an ignorant liar! You know nothing of me, and
JS> certainly from your post, you know nothing of the inspiration of
JS> Jesus.

Neither do you. You never met Jesus, (unless you hallucinate), and all
the 'accounts' of him are third-hand (or worse) gossip.
THere isn't a shred of evidence such a person ever existed, but plenty
of evidence for the plagiarization of the 'legend'.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  IGnorance
|Date: 04 Feb 97  21:22:48
EID:1e88 2244aac0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bbc
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
KY> We were made in God's image..  Man came before woman..

You better read some biology. We all began life as a female.
During development, hormones released transform female ovaries into
testicles and the genitalia into the male form.
Female first, Ken. Your bible is WRONG (again).

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  for your own good...
|Date: 04 Feb 97  21:34:04
EID:615b 2244ac40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bbd
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  13:17:12 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS> Don't have the foggiest on the childhood leukemia, so I'll pass
AS> on that. (Problem of Pain.)

Jd> What's to 'pass' on Al, - the embarrassing truth that your 'merciful'
Jd> god ignores the prayers of children with leukemia and lets them suffer
Jd> an agonizing death?

AS> Hmmm. Weren't you the same one who was arguing in terms of the
AS> Eden parable earlier? How does disease and death enter the world
AS> in that story?

Your bible of lies doesn't have any living things created
after the original burst of god's creativity, Al. Disease is caused by
living organisms, germs, spores, virii, bacteria, yeasts, parasites
- all created by your loving god BEFORE the entrapment in Eden.
So, Al, disease enters the world BECAUSE YOUR GOD CREATED DISEASE!
And because Adam and Steve ate an apple, they lost eternal life, eh?
Odd, Al, how EVERYTHING dies, stars, galaxies, plants, animals.
So your idiot god sentenced all the dumb animals to die too, along with
man? What an axehole, eh?

Jd> What a brutal sadisctic lying monstrosity you get on your knees to and
Jd> worship, Al.

AS> "sadisctic"?

A ten year-old here was able to recognize the word, in spite of the
typo, Al. For you, I'll clarify it - S-A-D-I-S-T-I-C.
Would you like a glass of milk and a cookie with it?

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  More absurd analogy
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:12:26
EID:e5ec 2244b180
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bbe
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  21:58:34 Al Schroeder wrote to ROBERT CURRY...

RC> Why does that bother you when you think nothing of worshipping
RC> a monster that merely twiddles its trinity while children ask and
RC> beg for help as they're brutally tortured?

AS> Because I believe freedom is better than a police state even with
AS> the possibility of people misusing that freedom to torture, rape
AS> or kill. Yourself?

Always the idiotic analogies. Your kind loving creator of universes at
a singlge bound, could only offer this, or a police state! Even a child
could come up more viable alternatives. You're just not trying hard
enough, Al. Lie more creativley for your masters.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Jonatahn Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:20:56
EID:351f 2244b280
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bbf
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
JF> When was the last time?  Never.  Because non-religious people DON'T
JF> HAVE ethics or morals, and so could care less.

Don't they? Have you seen non-religious people blowing up pro-life
centres and shooting pro-life doctors?
Obviously, your mouth isn't connected to your brain.

Religious people _DO_ have a system of ethics and morals - it's called
_hypocrisy_.

.JdB




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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  J.C. Investments Inc.
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:26:00
EID:3472 2244b340
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  22:00:24 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS> And Jesus sure lived an expensive lifestyle...didn't he?

Jd> Did he?....got any evidence for that? How do you know his father

AS> His complaining that He had no place to "lay his head"?

Jd> didn't make it as a rich developer and builder of the time?
Jd> Your bible says nothing bewteen the time of his birth, and his
Jd> appearance as a thirtyish rebel. He may have spent his youth at club
Jd> med, and the casinos in Babble-on.

AS> Unlikely...but it doesn't matter. If He HAD been affluent, than
AS> He gave it all up to become a travelling preacher, with very
AS> little funds, dependent on the good will of others to eat.

Nah - he frittered it all away at the casinos, on booze and drugs.

.JdB
... I'd rather ride the Wave wsOMR way!
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  Sleight of speech
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:29:36
EID:6c75 2244b3a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc1
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  19:10:10 Al Schroeder wrote to Ronald Vass...

AS> Doubtless when the nails were being driven in, there was no empathy..?

RV> Do you have empathy when you crush an ant ? You keep switching back

AS> Sometimes. I don't burn ants with a magnifying glass.

RV> and forth all the time. If your Jesus is a god ie: alien NOT Human
RV> ....then likely there wouldn't be any empathy.

It's all part of the technique of deception. People generally don't like
to look stupid, so, even though they're confused, they won't ask
questions to clear up the confusion, lest others think they're stupid.
Thus, the Jesus/God thing...one minute he's presented as god, the next
as a mere human. Of course, there's little point in asking anyway, all
you'll get is the usual evasion.
Ask 'em to explain the trinity! I once had one of the axeholes 'explain'
the trinity to me.......god is like an egg, the three parts - shell,
yolk and white! !
What gets me is the contempt - imagine the amound of contempt these
axeholes must have for you when shove such shit in your face.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Limited immortality
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:35:58
EID:3a8a 2244b460
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  22:03:08 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS> But since we know nothing of the afterlife except few hints, we
AS> don't know if there is any sort of preperation needed for the
AS> afterlife. We might mess up things by doing it too soon...

Jd> Strange how there is so much concern for the immortal soul in the
Jd> 'afterlife', yet no mention is made of the 'beforelife'......

AS> If there is one. (And if there is, we don't remember it. A
AS> difference that makes no difference is no difference...)

Well, there has to be! After all , ETERNAL life means without beginning
or end. If you're suggesting that there was NOTHING before this life,
then that means this life is the BEGINNING. So much for your eternal
life myth.
And, if we don't remember anything from 'former' lives, why Al, you
whole existence becomes meaningless! The purpose of this life is
suuposedly to prepare us for the next one, but if the lessons we learn
here can't be remembered in the next life, well, what's the point?

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:40:28
EID:1f2f 2244b500
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  19:14:52 Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...

AS> Odd. I didnt' think we helped sociopaths, but rather, locked them up.
AS> And in some cases execute them.

DC> Good thing that Galileo got to live, isn't it.

AS> Yes. But of course, he wasn't put under house arrest for being a
AS> sociopath, was he?

Better duck, Al - in case another flies by..

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Jesus LIVE in Concert!
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:46:52
EID:403a 2244b5c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc4
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  19:30:00 Al Schroeder wrote to ROBERT CURRY...

AS> On the strength of Jesus' own words,

Hello, LIAR. Do you have a tape-recording of Jesus? Do you have a bible
with a gospel entitled "The Gospel according to Jesus Christ"? - no one
else does.
Up to now, the only accounts of Jesus are third hand gossip, at best.
Do you have some startling archaelogical discovery hidden at home?

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  omni-sadistic
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:50:46
EID:ae75 2244b640
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc5
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  19:20:30 Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...

AS> Some have called me a theist with deist tendencies.

I,d call you just another liar fer the lard, who tries to project
an image of the kind old preacher with a liberal bent.
Doesn't _quite_ work.


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:53:14
EID:c6f2 2244b6a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc6
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  13:06:20 Jim Staal wrote to Ken Young...

JS> I know nothing of these 'fundies' of which you speak. I do know,
JS> however, that individuals who make claims of being the returned Messiah
JS> are no Christians.


F45  The "No True Scotsman..." fallacy

Suppose I assert that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. You
counter this by pointing out that your friend Angus likes sugar with
his porridge. I then say "Ah, yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on
his porridge.

This is an example of an ad hoc change being used to shore up an
assertion, combined with an attempt to shift the meaning of the words
used original assertion. You might call it a combination of fallacies.


.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Stay Stoopid fer Gawd
|Date: 04 Feb 97  22:58:58
EID:ae79 2244b740
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  19:40:12 Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...

AS> Don't look for me to become a Christian Scientist, either. For us
AS> to forsake the minds we have and the advantages we CAN muster
AS> would be to me an insult to the God who created us with those
AS> minds.

Funny then how he cursed us eternally for eating of the fruit of the
tree of knowledge, then eh? Bit of a contradiction, wouldn't you say,
idiot?

And yer god's earthly representatives certainly did their utmost to keep
us stupid. As a matter of fact, officially, they still have the sun
orbiting the earth, don't they? Check some English history, and come and
tell us hown many decades the Bishops of the Church of England blocked
the introduction of Public Schools. THen come back and tell us some more
lies.

.JdB


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Publisher's Sweepstakes
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:05:28
EID:6665 2244b8a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc8
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  19:43:14 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS>
AS> But I didn't say that. I don't think it, in that sense. I think
AS> it is the work of a great many men...some of which may have been
AS> guided by God...or perhaps those who put it together were. I
AS> don't think...per se...that this is a word-for-word dictation
AS> from the Infinite.

Jd> Well then, Al, which group who put it together were guided by god -
Jd> the team that came up with the version including the apochrypha, or
the
Jd> team that assembled the version without?
Jd> After all, an infallible, all-knowing god wouldn't guide a team of men
Jd> into ERROR would he?

AS> Notice how both groups have a lot of books in common.  It is
AS> those you might look at more closely.

Nice evasion again, Al. Do the fundee shuffle.........
.JdB

* New and Improved TRUTH fundycide - available at your library.


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  Answers $5 Evasion, free
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:10:30
EID:359a 2244b940
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bc9
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  19:53:24 Al Schroeder wrote to Ronald Vass...

AS> What if there is an imprint on the soul that allows the brain to impress
AS> the "mind" on it?

RV> And if the brain is scramble from the word go but the body lives
RV> it's three score and ten ? On death is the soul lost ? A baby that
RV> dies 30 seconds after birth ?  connections after birth> A day/week/month can also be placed in that
RV> 30 second bit after birth. If there is no mind
RV> what is there to impress upon the soul ? zip --- nothing --- or what?

AS> Got me, Ron. As Paul said, even if we Christians are right, we
AS> see "through a glass darkly". We don't know all the answers.

TRANSLATION: "I'm not a good enough bullshipper to come up with a
plausible explanation for yet another hole I've dug myself into trying
to explain one of the more absurd contentions of the stale mythology I'm
trying to pretend I beleive."

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  the real world
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:20:26
EID:dd9b 2244ba80
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bca
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  20:18:00 Al Schroeder wrote to ROBERT CURRY...

AS> NOW. But when humankind was faced with the Ice Ages, and lived
AS> very precariously indeed, you think such impulses would have
AS> been stamped out of us.

RC> In precarious times, which would really have the better chance of
RC> survival -- groups of people who felt like leaving their injured
RC> alone to die, thus causing the group to diminish, or groups who felt
RC> like helping those who are injured, adding to the group more people
RC> who work cooperatively together?

AS> The one which would have the best chance of surviving is the one
AS> that left the truly helpless cases to die, and those who carried
AS> heriditary diseases to die, and cooperated with those who could
AS> heal themselves.

Rather than speculate, look at the Eskimo culture, and how they handled
the problem.

.JdB

* New, Improved TRUTH fundycide...available at your library!


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Dove flew over....
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:26:26
EID:6786 2244bb40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bcb
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 02 Feb 97  23:55:56 Richard Smith wrote to Ronald Vass...

RV> Seems to me Sue also showed you or someone,that doves are
RV> NOT NICE birds. Or are these Al S. doves from the Al S.
RV> 'sample space' ie: not of this reality ?????????????

RS> Maybe those doves were geese in their former lives . . .


Whut duz  mean, or do I have to be a member?

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Vanilla Essence
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:30:38
EID:39a5 2244bbc0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bcc
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  20:49:04 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

AS> Whether Jesus was immaculately conceived, or the essence
AS> of God entered into a normal conception, is a difference
AS> that makes no difference to me.

Jd> Duh, what is the "essence of god".....sperm? Spiritual sperm?

AS> Haven't the foggiest, Jan.  Just somehow this baby was one with
AS> God.

Thought so. In other words, you were just bullshipping (again).


* TRUTH fundycide...now in aerosol!

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  weird sexual aftermaths
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:34:02
EID:1c6a 2244bc40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bcd
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 30 Jan 97  23:38:10 Richard Smith wrote to Ed Mills...

RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> Ed Mills said to David Worrell about weird sexual aftermaths (:


DW> I still don't know what the hell a nit comb is, though.
EM> A little plastic comb with very fine teeth, usually
EM> included in the box with your bottle of antiparasitic
EM> shampoo.
EM> Used to remove unwanted arachnids from the pubic fuzz.
EM> I finally gave up on the shampoo, however. My horticulturally
EM> obsessed roommate's bottle of Ortho Aphid Death did the trick,
EM> but it burned like hell.

RS> I guess that's easier than training a bird to sit on your
RS> head and keep the nits down . . . 

... Jesus to crowd: "No!  I said picnic not pick nits!  Damn apes." -gr/DC

Definitely a sign of old age or terminal boredom when they reminicse
about the crab nebula.....

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Jason Harmon
|Sub:  Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:37:00
EID:f27b 2244bca0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bce
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  15:48:20 Jason Harmon wrote to Ken Young...

-=> Quoting Ken Young to Martin Goldberg <=-

KY> Okay, you want to know why you need to be saved?  Really, I think the
KY> answer is simple, but I will go on anyway..  Simply put, you need to
be
KY> saved so you will have everlasting life in Heaven.  To be saved is to
KY> be saved from your sins, which doom you to Hell.

JH> 	 Any evidence for these places called Heaven and Hell?

Ken has the _one true path  to everlasting life.
But, do you _really_ want eternal boredom?

* TRUTH fundycide...now in aerosol!



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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Witless fer the Persecution
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:44:18
EID:a4e7 2244bd80
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bcf
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  21:39:18 Al Schroeder wrote to Ronald Vass...

AS> Tacitus and Seutonius show that people endured persecution for
AS> Christian beliefs, within thirty years of Jesus' death.

A shame that Tacitus and Seutonius weren't more thorough - they could
have spared the world the worst persecution in history when the
christians achieved dominance.


.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  I love thee, but...
|Date: 04 Feb 97  23:48:00
EID:f1f4 2244be00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f81bd0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  21:39:18 Al Schroeder wrote to Ronald Vass...

AS> "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with
AS> all thy mind, and with all thy soul; and you shall love your
AS> neighbour like yourself. On these two things hang all the laws
AS> and prophets..." I doubt if you would agree with the first. But
AS> you might agree with the second.

Even while turning they neighbour in to the inquisition, thou shalt love
him. And, even while napalming his children in Vietnam....

.JdB

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|From: David Worrell
|To:   All
|Sub:  christian Ignorance
|Date: 05 Feb 97  04:57:29
EID:8871 22452720
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f81384
PID: GED3 2.5
As many of you are aware, Christians are often appallingly ignorant of the
teachings of their own bible. Earlier tonight, I ran across a damn funny
example of this.

I decided to share excerpts from the IRC log with all of you. The topic
of discussion at the moment in question was Steiny's desire to be dominated
(this isn't a desire that he's ever openly admitted to, just something that
a few of us have noticed). For those who don't know, Steiny is Jim Steingrobe.
He has posted here a few times, but has been much more active on the IRC
channel. I've got a special place in my heart for Steiny. Well... to be
honest, it's just below my heart - the region where most of us feel the
strongest indigestion pains.

--cut--

 Steiny: Do you now, or have you ever, own any dog collars, chains,
whips, or spiked heels?
 Azir....only the ones I am saving for you
 I don't share your disgusting sexual perversion, steinbot. Thanks
for thinking of me, though.
 Azir....believe me, it was only an extremely brief thought...
 Who was it that said thinking of sex was just as bad as having
sex?
 Azir....I think it was your mother
* Azirafel rofls
 Az, Jesus is your MAMA?!
 Must be. Steiny says so, after all.
 Wow!  Such a family, Az!
 guess that plays hell with that patriarchal myth, doesn't it?
 I'm the grandson of God, it seems. Damn, I wish I'dve found out
earlier.

--cut--

I wonder if this means I don't exist outside the imagination?

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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Damien Wellman
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  04:46:24
EID:2dbb 224525c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f810cb
PID: GED3 2.5
Monday February 03 1997 19:36, Damien Wellman wrote to Judith Bandsma:

JB>> So? For West Virginia, that's RICH. 

DW> The ICBMs have been launched and should arrive shortly.

They've got slingshot launched ICBMs now? I'll be damned.

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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Damien Wellman
|Sub:  native americans
|Date: 05 Feb 97  04:47:35
EID:ece4 224525e0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f81124
PID: GED3 2.5
Monday February 03 1997 19:36, Damien Wellman wrote to Robert Curry:

DC>> I have to agree with David on that point.  Though it does
DC>> not ensure that a technology will develop, it is the basis
DC>> of all technology, FMPOV.
RC>> Do you need to be able to harness fire in order to use a spear?

DW>  True. You only need fire if you want the spear to have a metal head
DW> or shaft.

Or simply a fire-hardened head. A remarkable improvement over the run-of-the-mill
pointy stick.

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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Ski Canada -- In the sum
|Date: 05 Feb 97  04:49:16
EID:ae99 22452620
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f811ca
PID: GED3 2.5
RS>> Americans are like that everywhere they go in the world.  It is
RS>> because they don't have the humility to realise they aren't the
RS>> best country in the world.

You do realize we've got all these untargeted ICBMs now, what with the fall
of the Soviet Union and all, right?

You do realize how easily they could be retargeted on a certain silly little
island country in the southern hemisphere, don't you?

You were saying? :)

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|From: David Worrell
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 05 Feb 97  04:52:05
EID:567b 22452680
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f81246
REPLY: 1:3800/49 00101b3b
PID: GED3 2.5
Sunday February 02 1997 23:13, David Ragland wrote to Darryl Gonzalez:

DR> Anyway, I think you will like my little weekly newsletter.  I would
DR> be interested in hearing your suggestions for improvements.  If you
DR> like, I can put you on the mailing list to get it every week.  My
DR> Church is working on buying new property at present as we have
DR> outgrown our building.  Any ideas for fund raising?  My puny tithes
DR> just aren't getting it. :)  Can't wait 'til my computer business
DR> get's off the ground. :)  Then my Wife and I can get into some
DR> serious stuff, ie; funding missionaries, building Churches,
DR> distributing my writing etc.

I Corinthians:

13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not;
charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Personal jabs
|Date: 05 Feb 97  19:08:14
EID:cc43 22459900
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32f8dabe
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 1012bf4c
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!

Saturni dies February 01 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Ed Mills:

FR> I get my kicks on Route 666 -- the Road of the Beast

I need a better scan of that picture I have of me doing the "Hail Satan"
gesture in front of a US 666 sign in Colorado. :)


--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:22:03
EID:eba5 22439ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc7072
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32f15d48
JF>>   Yes, some have been SCIENTIFICALLY proven, if just by the 
JF>> fact that science couldn't explain sudden recoveries from 
JF>> illness.

Science isn't a collection of facts that show what you wnat them to show.

Please provide evidence that there is a correlation between these sudden
recoveries and miracles.

--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:23:09
EID:967d 22439ae0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc7360
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f3b520
KY> But God still lets it happen..  Maybe if we came back to God, 
KY> crops would do better..

You mean that a bunch of kids in Africa that never heard of your christian
god need to starve until they "come back to him"?  What kind of murderer
is your god.  In Texas, we string folks up for this kidn of thing.

--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:24:24
EID:aab1 22439b00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc78f7
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f41132
MG>> Why do we need to be saved?

KY> Okay, you want to know why you need to be saved?  Really, I think 
KY> the answer is simple, but I will go on anyway..  Simply put, you 
KY> need to be saved so you will have everlasting life in Heaven.  To 
KY> be saved is to be saved from your sins, which doom you to 
KY> Hell.

Did you forget to:

1.  Offer evidence for heaven?
2.  Offer evidence for hell?
3.  Offer evidence that there is any kind of everlasting life anywhere?
4.  That there is any kind of god around to run these shows?
5.  That there is sin to be saved from?
6.  That there is any kind of salvation?


That will do for now.  Anyting not from the bible will be accepted for consideration.

--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Naked Pagan Rituals
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:26:38
EID:cc3e 22439b40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc7b76
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f41852
KY> Nowhere does it say babies will go to Hell.. Rather it is 
KY> reemphasizing that we are born with a wicked nature..  But, 


"Suffer the children, for if you do not accept at an early age you shall
not enter into the kingdom of heaven".

It's somewhere in the NT.  This is my paraphrase of it.

--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:28:06
EID:9053 22439b80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc7e5f
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32f3da00
DC> Actually, those are his first and middle names.  His last 
DC> name is really Jelly.  

Then his mother should have named him "Grape".

Btw, I got you netmail and answered, but it seems that you are not recieving
nets these days.  

--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   ALL
|Sub:  My Winter Weekend
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:29:04
EID:13a3 22439ba0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc915a
It was a dark and stormy night...

Wait, scratch that.  

Wait, haven't I heard this somewhere before.

No, I haven't.

Yes, you have.

Well, shit...

I was int he middle of giving Jim Staal some shit via our fine echo here
when there came a banging on my front door.  I would have preferred the
IRS audit man to what I saw.  No, it wasn't Howdy Doody come to life and
become a christian.  No, it wasn't my Mother in law iwth meatlaof.  No,
it wasn't two dozen incontinent cats dropping kittens on my front porch.

It was much worse.

Yes, Dr. Leipzig appeared with demands for (ick) bourbon with cigar in hand
and Hawaiian shirt (ala Shelby Sherman) on back, desiring entertainment.
So we read the echo a while before he retruned to his opulent and expensive
hotel room nt he far side of town.

He has lost his feed and is lookign for another, so if anyone wants to volunteer,
I'll pass it on.  Anyone who is a sysop and can deliver a BW packet or at
the very most set up as a point would be appreciated by his majesty.


After consuming most of my bourbon (everyone has a use) we sent him off
to bigger and better things....like the cockroaches inhis hotel suite. 
At any rate, he will out for a bit so let me know if anyone can do anything.

--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:37:54
EID:9e1e 22439ca0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc9760
REPLY: 1:3800/49 000982e1
DR>    Why, yes.  As a matter of fact, I do. ;)  Look to your own 
DR> evidence first though, ok?  Specifically, look at why _you_ 
DR> believe God exists and let's see how it compares to mine.  
DR> Don't bother telling me you _don't_ believe.  I won't believe 
DR> you.  I don't believe "anyone" who says this.  I believe 
DR> they are just being rebellious.

Total bullshit, JUnior.  You don't believe that I am completely atheistic?
Just try me.

This is an excuse to get out of offering up the nonexistant evidence for
your god.  I do not believe and I want to know what would make you believe
in a fairy tale.

--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:39:51
EID:aa57 22439ce0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc995c
REPLY: 1:102/735.0 2242539a
MG>> Btw, don't you have a middle name?  I'm too busy laughing at 
MG>> your initials to post too much to you.
MK> "And it shook when he laughed like a bowl full of jelly."


Can we have bananas in it.  Red Jello with bananas.

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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  From It
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:40:48
EID:91cf 22439d00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bc9ea7
REPLY: 1:102/735.0 2242539c
AS>>> Then why...if we are shaped solely by evolution....do we 
AS>>> not adopt a  policy of eliminating the unfit?
MG>> Our actions have nothing to do with evolution.

MK> This statement of Al's is as damning as his "it's okay to kill 
MK> babies since they go to heaven" statement.  It demonstrates, 
MK> among other things, his total lack of a grasp of evolutionary 
d

Al has forgotten that the shared feelings of humanity are wht cause us to
try and save the lives of others.  Our entrie medical complex with research,
diagnosis and treatment is counter-evolutionary.

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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:43:47
EID:1dad 22439d60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bca38b
REPLY: 1:102/735.0 22425b86
KY>> ALl prayers are answered
MK> Nice claim, but no evidinciary backup.  Ergo, claim dismissed.


From the looks of his typing, Mohammed should have preayed not to get Parkinson's.

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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97  20:42:47
EID:1dad 2243a540
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 74bd2de7
REPLY: 1:102/735.0 22434037
MK> As a matter of fact, we are quite aware, without instrumentation, 
MK> of some of that metagalactic cluster.  The big, bright yellow 
MK> hydrogen lamp in the sky during the day, for example, is one 
MK> sun within one galaxy of that cluster.  And it's quite 
MK> apparent right where I'm sitting.  Bits of Al's gods are not
MK> apparent, even though he claims they are infinite.  Ergo, 
MK> Al's claim, like his analogy, is so much bullshit.

So Al makes two mistakes in one post.  How does he do it?

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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 05 Feb 97  22:13:52
EID:842b 2245b1a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32f9065b
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 74bc7360
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Martin!

Lunae dies February 03 1997, Dixit Martin Goldberg ad Ken Young:

KY>> But God still lets it happen..  Maybe if we came back to God, crops
KY>> would do better..

Golden Ages never happened, never will.

MG> You mean that a bunch of kids in Africa that never heard of your
MG> christian god need to starve until they "come back to him"?  What
MG> kind of murderer is your god.  In Texas, we string folks up for this
MG> kidn of thing.

Tell him about the woman who recently got the death penalty for doing it
to just ONE kid.

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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  My Winter Weekend
|Date: 05 Feb 97  22:15:24
EID:e84f 2245b1e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32f906a3
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 74bc915a
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Martin!

Lunae dies February 03 1997, Dixit Martin Goldberg ad ALL:

MG> Yes, Dr. Leipzig appeared with demands for (ick) bourbon with cigar
in
MG> hand and Hawaiian shirt (ala Shelby Sherman) on back, desiring

And you clowns didn't call me?!

MG> He has lost his feed and is lookign for another, so if anyone wants
to
MG> volunteer, I'll pass it on.  Anyone who is a sysop and can deliver a
BW
MG> packet or at the very most set up as a point would be appreciated by
his
MG> majesty.

I can give him QWK packets or a point.

--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Sally Springett
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 05 Feb 97  16:26:00
EID:8ad8 22458340
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 07cb6ab3
MG> Well since I make my living in the field of molecular
MG> micorbiology and how it relates to immunological processes,
MG> I'm certain that we can have a nice discussion.

DR> I disagree.  There is a _required_ parameter missing for you
DR> and I to have a _nice_ discussion.  You have to take on some
DR> semblance of a person that can discuss something without
DR> trying to lord your degree over the layman's head.  Can you
DR> not see the arrogant and generally indecorous connotation of
DR> your whole approach to this conversation? This adversarial
DR> modus operandi is both uneeded and ludicrous.  What are you
DR> thinking?  Why not just state what you believe and the reasons
DR> therefore instead of putting me through this inane pedagogical
DR> inquest.

You're easily offended, aren't you? The arrogance lies in your
apparent belief that, since _you_ have taken that "step beyond
evidence and reason" (you will recognize your own words), everyone
must, necessarily, agree that this is a clever idea.

Surely you aren't under the impression that stepping "beyond
evidence and reason" is permitted in the hard sciences.

___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves

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|From: Sally Springett
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  16:34:00
EID:443d 22458440
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 91401d3b
KY> Brine a fundy is about behavior, not religion, correct?  Well,
KY> do you believe what is printed in history books, for example?
KY> If you agree with what they say, then you are a fundy, by
KY> sticking to what they say.

It is one thing to think that a history book is probably accurate
when it says that the Revolutionary War began in 1776, particularly
when the book was written by a person who has spent a good part of
his/her life on research into the matter. 

It is quite another to accept as literally true a book, written by
dozens of people over a millennium, that is replete with provable
falsehood and contradiction.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution
|Date: 06 Feb 97  09:07:02
EID:0a45 224648e0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89192387
Hi Al,
(Re: yours of 26-Jan-1997, "Bacteria & evolution (c).")

LA> Are you again saying that God personally created all new
LA> species (or kinds) and that is why we do not find any
LA> transitional fossils?

AS>     Nope. I believe in punctuated evolution, which is why
AS> we find a lesser number...but still some...transitional
AS> fossils.

I suggest you are being a little devious here, since Prof.
S.J. Gould says; "The extreme rarity of transitional
forms in the fossil record persists as the Trade Secret of
paleontology." Weren't you aware of that and is that is why you
have described the situation much differently?

Then please tell me what, if anything God DID create,
according to your faith?

Laurie

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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Rewriting the truth
|Date: 05 Feb 97  06:14:36
EID:89d7 224531c0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 dbd415f6
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f6ce7e
On (04 Feb 97) Ken Young babbled to Marilyn Burge...

Jd> We didn't know the truth, espeically gawd's holy truth, came in
Jd> different 'versions'?

AS> You think everyone needs to use the King James, perhaps? How
AS> fundy of you.

KY> Well, it is the most accurate version, after all..

MB> Bwahahahahahah!  I can see how much you've studied that issue!
MB> The KJV is one of the LEAST accurate versions!


KY> Evidence?

I'm not about to do your homework for you.  Read a bit of the
history behind the various translations and versions.  The KJV
is a VERSION, not a translation, to begin with.  It is a
derivation of earlier works and did not depend on the original
documents.  Add to that the fact that it is written in a dead
language, causing the modern reader to "see" things that were
never intended by the writers of its day, and you have a
document that is worthy of the dust it collects on most shelves.


... Justice without mercy is preferable to mercy without justice.

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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Well, Willy? Huh??
|Date: 05 Feb 97  06:32:37
EID:d125 22453400
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 da4cc5c8
REPLY: 1:3800/49 000982db
On (01 Feb 97) David Ragland babbled to Robert Curry...

DR> RCI'd much prefer a competent president who takes his oath of office
DR> RCEXACTLY as it is written in the godless Constitution, without any
DR> RCreligious trappings needlessly added.

DR> RCAnd you?


DR>      I am inclined to agree on some level.  If he is going to profess
DR> a position, however, I would like to think that he is honest about it.
DR>  If he will lie about his religion, he will lie incessantly about
DR> everything.

Is take a secular oath "lying about his religion?"

Why does one lie automatically ensure that one will incessantly lie
about everything?  People lie all the time without becoming
pathological liars.  They lie about whether or not the like a friend's
new outfie in order to avoid hurt feelings.  They lie about whether or
not a spouse is home when a spouse doesn't wish to talk on the phone.
They lie about their age.  The say "I'm fine" when somebody says "how
are you" without then lying incessantly lying about everything.

Binary thinking is nothing but intellectual laziness.  Give it up.


... Christianity:  Don't underestimate the power of the farce.        gr

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|From: Mark Kimes
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:23:23
EID:3476 224592e0
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 224592eb
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
DR> Specifically, why make the below comment so as to infer imbecilic
DR> credulousness?

MK>> Snake oil salesmen must camp at your doorstep.

How about because:

DR> I have taken a step beyond the evidence and reason by choosing to have
DR> faith in a Creator.

Coupled with the fact that you think we should believe you.  Plus your
description of TV "mysteries explained" shows as "convincing."  Plus the
comments to which the above was in reply.

Sorry, it's your bed, _you_ sleep in it.
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *

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|From: Mark Kimes
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution 2/2
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:23:27
EID:196e 224592e0
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 224592ed
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
MB>>> The will o' gawd, Hector, the will 'o gawd.

HP>> But why does the will o' gawd do this?  

MB> His ways are a mystery.  You kmow that.  He has a purpose that our
MB> finite little minds cannot possibly comprehend.

Precisely.  The answer "gods dunnit" merely substitutes an unanswered question
with an unanswerable question.  Ergo, it's not an answer at all.
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *

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|From: Mark Kimes
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:23:31
EID:c9ee 224592e0
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 224592ef
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
JF>>> And how can I possibly be a fundy?  All I'm trying to do is stick
by
JF>>> the Bible

HP>> ROFL!

KY> Brine a fundy

Okay, here's some salt water.

KY> is about behavior, not religion, correct?  Well, do you believe what
KY> is printed in history books, for example?

Sure, as long as they provide references and don't make claims about dead
men
jumping up and flying away without a scrap of evidence to back it up.  Of
course, it helps to read several history texts and investigate any discrepancies
between them.  People do make mistakes, intentional or otherwise.  It is
up to
the reader to exercise judgement when reading anything, you know, Kenny.
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *

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|From: Mark Kimes
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Idiocy
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:23:39
EID:58f2 224592e0
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 224592f3
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
DR>>> I see all profanity as colorful metaphors that the English language
DR>>> can do without.

HP>> You feel that the English language can do without colorful metaphors?
HP>> You _are_ a droll little fellow, aren't you?

DR> I never said any such thing and you know it.  It was the profanity
DR> that I said could be done without.

You "see all profanity as colorful metaphors."  You feel the English language
could do without such.  You figure it out -- see top quote above.  Perhaps
your
preacher can explain it to you if it's over your pointy little head. :-)

DR> BTW, you don't know what droll means do you?

Of course I do -- I even _own_ a dictionary:

droll   adj.  Amusingly odd or whimsically comical. 

droll   n.    A buffoon.

Fits you to a tee, it does, little fundy.  :-)
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *

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|From: Mark Kimes
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Wonder Woman Comics win
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:23:43
EID:438e 224592e0
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 224592f5
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
DR>>> You have run to arms of atheism in order to avoid submitting to the
DR>>> will of the Almighty.

HP>> How silly of you.  It is precisely the lack of any evidence
HP>> that any "Almighty" [sic] exists that has led to my own atheism.

DR> So I am silly now?

You've always been silly, David.

Would you like me to explain why your above line is silly?  Okay.  You see,
it's
silly to claim that someone ran to atheism to avoid submitting to something
that
can't be shown to exist in the first place.  Kinda like telling the nice
officer
that you were going really fast because Godzilla was chasing you.

DR> Maybe then I'll win the Baton Rouge City Championship outright instead
DR> of just tying for first [C-Class] like I did in '93.

ROFL!  Wanna tell us your GPA next?  This, too, Dave, is typically fundy
behavior.

DR> Why do you automatically assume Christians are possessed of torpid
DR> intellect.

Dave, I have merely pointed out that you're being silly.  I haven't assumed
anything about you or other Christians here.

DR> The Bible unapologetically declares:

And we unapolegetically ignore the bible as an old myth.

DR> Only a fool could believe that the Universe came into
DR> existence by chance.

There's no evidence that the universe "came into being," Dave, since that
implies a time before time, which is meaningless.  Pay attention.

DR> Just one living cell in the human body is, according to Nobel Prize
DR> winner Linus Pauling, "more complex than New York City."

Argument from authority, and one that doesn't support your claim to boot.
Tsk,
tsk.  BTW, it's also wrong, since New York City is composed, among other
things,
of billions of living cells.  :-)

DR> To imagine that life itself (which is a mystery beyond the capacity
of
DR> science to fathom) and the incredible complexity of matter that sustains
DR> life could ever happen by chance is absurd.

Who says that life or matter "happened by chance" besides fundies like you,
Dave?  This is known as a strawman.

DR> But you are a skeptic that needs evidence, _YOU_ say?  I
DR> understand.

Then you will provide some evidence?  Well?  We're waiting...

DR> Evidence and reason do point to God.

Nice claim, but you forgot to provide the "evidence and reason" for our
scrutiny.  Ergo, sorry, don't believe you.

DR> You see the same evidence

What "same" evidence?  You've yet to provide _any_ evidence that your gods
exist
outside the human imagination.  Back that cart up and put the horse in front,
Dave.  Where's your evidence?

DR> Sadly, however, in trying to escape the consequences of admitting God's
DR> existence

This is where you came in, silly fundy.  I've seen no evidence of your gods
existing outside the human imagination.  It's your claim, and your job to
provide such evidence to back up the claim.  Hop to it, don't just talk
about
it.

DR> You choose to deny evidence

Now there you go again, silly fundy.  You'd have to _provide_ some evidence
before it could be denied, Dave.  I have clearly not chosen to deny what
you
have failed to present.
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *

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|From: Mark Kimes
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Dust in the Wind
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:23:47
EID:9e88 224592e0
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 224592f7
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
DR>>> Every human that "is" human wants and "needs" to be needed.  This
DR>>> alone is evidence that we are possessed of souls and spirits.

HP>> If this is all the evidence you have, you're in mighty big trouble.
It
HP>> appears to be evidence that humans, being societal animals, feel a
HP>> general need for society.

DR>>> This alone is what separates us from the animal kingdom.

HP>> ROFL!  We're hardly _separated_ from the "animal kingdom."  My cat
loves
HP>> to be wanted and needed.  One might even say she's desperate for
HP>> attention.  You're debunked.

DR> You may ROFL all you want.

Indeed, I may and I will.  But your permission, though appreciated, is not
required.  (You and Al -- sheesh. :-)

DR> An animal showing a propensity for affectionate behaviour is not hardly
DR> expressive of something as complex as assaying to be a worthwhile being.

You claimed that only humans desire to be wanted and needed, ergo humans
have
souls and spirits [sic].  I provided a simple example showing that you were
wrong.  Deal with it, pink boy.

As for your assertion that other animals (humans are animals, too, remember?)
do
not assay to be worthwhile beings -- do _you_ read their minds to determine
that?  Or is this just another claim (different from the first, which has
been
debunked, BTW) on your part?  You see, even your attempt at a topic-shift
hasn't
succeeded.

HP>> Consider:  if you are wrong, you wasted the only life you have.

DR> Wasted my life?  Since when is living one's life in accord with some
DR> modicum of ethics and charity a waste?

Living one's life in blind obesience to a deity that does not exist can
hardly
be described in any other way than as a life "wasted," Dave.  While you
might
attain some weird satisfaction from such a life, it would be of a secondary
nature at best.

DR> I cannot lead others to Christ

If Jess isn't a god, which is what is meant by "if you are wrong," remember,
you
cannot lead others to "Christ" -- correct.  This is an example of the
time-wasting inherent in your life if you are wrong.  BTW, your logic skills
are
atrocious.

Then there's the problem "what if you picked the wrong gods to believe in,
and
the 'real' gods send you to hell because of it?"  In this case, if you're
wrong,
you fry.

As you can see, the Wager fails on many counts.  Religious apologists are
well
aware of the failings of the Wager, and those with a modicum of brains therefore
don't bring it up.  :-)
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *

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|From: Mark Kimes
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Direct Dialling
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:23:51
EID:4b10 224592e0
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 224592f9
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
HP>> I bet if we work at it when can get him to mention JFK in his
HP>> prophecy...

DC> Don't forget Kissinger!  

How _is_ Dr. Kissinger, anyway?

DC> BTW, were is Prewet?  You didn't set him adrift on an ice floe, 
DC> did you?

He's been mentally marooned for years.  I saw his hellfire-and-numerology
web
page a few nights ago.
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *

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|From: Mark Kimes
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  more babbling email
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:39:00
EID:9278 224594e0
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 224594e0
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
RC>>> Enjoy. Don't forget to discuss it with your local psychiatrist.

AS>> She would enjoy it, I'm sure. She has often enjoyed the
AS>> antics of cyberspace denizens, whose rudeness is only conferred
AS>> by the courage of a modem,

RC> Is this where you feel your courage comes from?

Given Al's reticence to meet local Holysmokers face-to-face, I'd say that's
a
gimme.
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  17:32:54
EID:200a 22458c00
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f8c446
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
JF> When was the last time?  Never.  Because non-religious people DON'T
JF> HAVE ethics or morals, and so could care less.

Don't they? Have you seen non-religious people blowing up pro-life
centres and shooting pro-life doctors?
Obviously, your mouth isn't connected to your brain.

Religious people _DO_ have a system of ethics and morals - it's called
_hypocrisy_.

.JdB



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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Stay Stoopid fer Gawd
|Date: 05 Feb 97  09:56:36
EID:ae79 22454f00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abcb
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  19:40:12 Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...

AS> Don't look for me to become a Christian Scientist, either. For us
AS> to forsake the minds we have and the advantages we CAN muster
AS> would be to me an insult to the God who created us with those
AS> minds.

Funny then how he cursed us eternally for eating of the fruit of the
tree of knowledge, then eh? Bit of a contradiction, wouldn't you say?

And yer god's earthly representatives certainly did their utmost to keep
us stupid. As a matter of fact, officially, they still have the sun
orbiting the earth, don't they? Check some English history, and come and
tell us hown many decades the Bishops of the Church of England blocked
the introduction of Public Schools. Then come back and tell us some more
lies.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  weird sexual aftermaths
|Date: 05 Feb 97  09:58:50
EID:1c6a 22454f40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abcc
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 30 Jan 97  23:38:10 Richard Smith wrote to Ed Mills...

RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> Ed Mills said to David Worrell about weird sexual aftermaths (:


DW> I still don't know what the hell a nit comb is, though.
EM> A little plastic comb with very fine teeth, usually
EM> included in the box with your bottle of antiparasitic
EM> shampoo.
EM> Used to remove unwanted arachnids from the pubic fuzz.
EM> I finally gave up on the shampoo, however. My horticulturally
EM> obsessed roommate's bottle of Ortho Aphid Death did the trick,
EM> but it burned like hell.

RS> I guess that's easier than training a bird to sit on your
RS> head and keep the nits down . . . 

RS>... Jesus to crowd: "No!  I said picnic not pick nits!  Damn apes."
RS> -gr/DC

Definitely a sign of old age or terminal boredom when they reminisce
about the crab nebula.....
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  I love thee, but...
|Date: 05 Feb 97  09:59:48
EID:f1f4 22454f60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abcd
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  21:39:18 Al Schroeder wrote to Ronald Vass...

AS> "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with
AS> all thy mind, and with all thy soul; and you shall love your
AS> neighbour like yourself. On these two things hang all the laws
AS> and prophets..." I doubt if you would agree with the first. But
AS> you might agree with the second.

Even while turning thy neighbour in to the inquisition, thou shalt love
him. And, even while napalming his children in Vietnam....

.JdB
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  the promise keepers
|Date: 05 Feb 97  08:10:54
EID:2b0c 22454140
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abce
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 04 Feb 97  23:46:38 Dave Hamilton wrote to Jim Staal...

DH> About a message of Jim Staal to Rod Swift:

JS>  You are merely a blatant liar evidencing only his own ignorance and
JS> penchant for shooting of his mouth with nothing to back it up with,
JS> fact-wise.

DH> You have just provided the job description of any ordained
DH> minister.

DH> Most fundies do it, but ministers get paid for it.


ROTFL!    FAQ!  FAQ!  FAQ!!!!!

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Partial Virgin a little pregnant.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  08:30:10
EID:45c6 224543c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abcf
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 01 Feb 97  00:56:04 Dave Hamilton wrote to Jan deBoer...

DH> It has been my view that if one is prepared to take liberties,
DH> one must be prepared to accept the consequences. Antiquated
DH> perhaps, but nontheless valid, I think.

DH> I wonder what POV he would hold if God Himself confronted him and
DH> asked him directly.

I rather suspect Al knows full well he needn't worry about that ever
happening.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Puny weakling god
|Date: 05 Feb 97  08:45:40
EID:2e28 224545a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  12:25:14 John Brawley wrote to Jan deBoer...

JB> Ah, but did you 'pray' for "convincing evidence" to be handed you at
a
JB> _specific time and place_, and did you ask for something _possible_
to
JB> a  'real' God,

Jd> Mathew 19:26 ...with God all things are possible.
Jd>                          ^^^

JB> I'm sorry, Jan --my theological maunderings do not admit of
JB> limitations.

John Brawley...the NEW god. Self-appointed, I'm sure.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Puny weakling god
|Date: 05 Feb 97  08:47:56
EID:2e28 224545e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd1
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  12:25:14 John Brawley wrote to Jan deBoer...

JB> I'm sorry, Jan --my theological maunderings do not admit of
JB> limitations. The Bible imposes limitations.  (So do the
JB> Baghavad-Gita, the Platform Scriptures of Lao-Tzu, the Mahabarata
JB> , the story of the Prophet in the Qu'ran, etc etc) --each ancient
JB> religious text imposes limitations on "what God is," that need
JB> not be applied when considering applying _science_ to the
JB> investigation.

Scientific investigations do not fare well when called upon in support
of urban legends. The Loch Ness monster, the tooth faery, the bogey man,
bigfoot, and Jesus have all survived without scientific credentials.
No doubt, it's all a matter of funding.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Puny weakling god
|Date: 05 Feb 97  08:53:56
EID:2e28 224546a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  12:25:14 John Brawley wrote to Jan deBoer...

JB> An example of the sort of nonempiricism available in the Bible:
JB> how would one tell the difference between a God which _could_ do
JB> a thing, but chose absolutely NOT to, and a God which _could_NOT_
JB> do that thing?

It is commendable to see your religion concerned with important issues,
rather than be distracted by such mundane things as world hunger.
May I suggest acquiring the services of one of the many fine personnel
agencies and consultants available. They have years of experience, and
are familiar with the best techniques for screening out phonies and
bullshippers.
Do you have any reference material on angels dancing on pinheads?

.JdB














JB> Another: how would one distinguish between stories of
JB> God-manufactured events in the Bible, which _were_ actual events,
JB> and God-manufactured events therein which were only mental
JB> reachings and imagings of the human writer of the stor(ies)?

JB> In neither case is there much of anything useful to one who
JB> wishes to find the unification-points between reports in ancient
JB> texts, and a possibly REAL (and real-time-acting) God that is
JB> 'present and accounted for' currently in this Universe, and
JB> responsive in some way to the scientifically-minded of us.


Jd> Is god only working part-time, now John? Can't seem to find any
Jd> office hours in the bible.

JB> (*grin*)  _That's_ not the problem.  These days, we can't even
JB> find the _OFFICE_, let alone its 'hours'.....


Jd> Christiians keep telling us god exists outside time and space, and
Jd> here you are telling us god is constrained by physics??
Jd> What happended to 'all-powerful'? 'Omnipotent'??

JB> Compare: huge seaside granite cliff, solid, heavy, immense....
JB> Now the tidal wave, a mountain of powerful water smashing with
JB> incredible force against it.  Result?  (Wet granite....*g*)
JB> Now instead, gentle, small lappings of wavelets, through all the
JB> seasons, all the years for thousands and tens of thousands of
JB> them. Result?  Sand.  The granite cliff yields itself, crumbling
JB> to the gentle-over-time, rather than to the sudden-and-powerful.
JB> Now, which form of the waterborne effect is "Potent?"  Reduction
JB> of the granite is achieved not by the sudden and powerful, but by
JB> the weak, ever-present and constant.  "Omnipotent?"  I suggest an
JB> examination of what that actually may mean....


JB> _gotten_  answered, but missed the answer....

Jd> Ah.....the all-powerful, all-knowing, infallible can't communicate?
Jd> ROTFL!

JB> Ah.....the weak, barely-aware, quite _fallible_ (human) can't
JB> MISS IT? All too often, men and/or women DO miss it, eh?


JB> (*grin*)  Sure, and I'd like to fly without non-body additions...
JB> . But a Rule says I can't do that.  Perhaps the God just can't do
JB> SOME specific things without using the same Rules --spaceTIME's
JB> Rules.

Jd> Hahahahaha...so now _YOU'RE_ puttling LIMITATIONS on god, - god the
Jd> ALMIGHTY, god the ALLPOWERFUL, God the OMNIPOTENT!
Jd> Ah, hahahahahaha lie upon lie upon lie upon fib upon whopper upon
Jd> pathological lie upon absurditiies from imbeciles.

JB> Settle back in your chair, fool.
JB> Such awesome displays of religious egomania are unbecoming to one
JB> who supposedly knows how to exercise humility, self-control, and
JB> the "Golden Rule."


JB> If our 'free will' (and perhaps God's as well) is dependent on the
JB> physics of the Universe (quantum nonlocality operative in protoplasm-
JB> brain or in Universe-brain), and not on God, then we _can't_ lose it.
JB> The ability to disobey the God would remain.   (And, you're using an
JB> ancient mythic paradigm ("Hell"), to make your point that there is
JB> something to avoid.)

Jd> Could you provide the bible reference for "quantum nonlocality
Jd> operative in protoplasm-brain".....my concordance seems to have missed
Jd> it...................

JB> You laugh from ignorance.  Ignorance is curable, provided the
JB> "righteous egomaniac" allows the doctor into his house....

JB> You asked:

JB> The Emperor's New Mind (Penrose)
JB> Godel, Escher, Bach (Hofstedter)
JB> Consciousness Explained (Dennett)
JB> QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter (Feynman)
JB> Presence of the Past (Sheldrake)
JB> The First Three Minutes (Weinberg)
JB> Superforce (Davies)
JB> Infinite in All Directions (Dyson)
JB> The God particle (Lederman)
JB> The Edge of Infinity (Davies)
JB> The Cosmic Blueprint (Davies)
JB> God and the New Physics (Davies)
JB> The Matter Myth (Davies)
JB> Quantum Reality (Herbert, Nick)
JB> The Mind of God (Davies)
JB> The New Physics (Davies)
JB> Cosmic Coincidences (Gribbin)
JB> The Monkey Puzzle (Gribbin)
JB> Spacewarps (Gribbin)
JB> Timewarps (Gribbin)
JB> In the Beginning : after COBE  (Gribbin)
JB> Black Holes and Baby Universes (Hawking)
JB> A Brief History of Time (Hawking)
JB> Faster Than Light (Stapp(?))
JB> Wholeness and the Implicate Order (Bohm)
JB> Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics (Bell)

JB> -----------
JB> The "Past" and the "Delayed-Choice" Double-Slit Experiment
JB> (Wheeler, in _Mathematical_Foundations_of_Quantum_Mechanics_,
JB> Academic Press, '78) Quantum Optical Tests of Complementarity
JB> (Scully, NATURE, May 9, 1991) The Duality in Matter and Light
JB> (Scully, Sci-Am '94) Delayed-Choice Experiments and the
JB> Bohr-Einstein Dialog (Wheeler) Bohm's Alternative to Quantum
JB> Mechanics (Albert, Sci-Am, May '94) Quantum Pinball (Ruthen,
JB> Sci-Am, Nov.'91) Faster than Light? (Chiao, Kwiat, Steinberg,
JB> Sci-Am, August '93) Path Detection and the Uncertainty Principle
JB> (Storey et al, NATURE v.367) Quantum Theory and Quack Theory (N.Y
JB> .Rev.of Books,(c)May 17, 1979 ) Quantum Philosophy (Horgan,
JB> Sci-Am, July '92) Cavity Quantum Electrodynamics (Haroche, Sci-Am
JB> , April '93) Can (Q-M) Description of Physical Reality Be
JB> Considered Complete? (Einstein, Phys.Rev., 1935) (This is the
JB> original EPR paper) Experimental Test of Bell's Inequalities
JB> Using Time-Varying Analyzers (Aspect, Phys. Rev. Ltrs., 1982)
JB> (This is the original Aspect/EPR paper) EPR and Bell's Theorem: A
JB> Critical Review (Stapp, Foundations of Physics,'90) On the
JB> Problem of Hidden Variables in Quantum Mechanics (Bell, Rev. of
JB> Modern Physics, July 1966) (This is the original 'Bell's Theorem'
JB> paper) Interpretation of the Quantum Formalism and Bell's Theorem
JB> (Santos, Foundations of Physics, '91)
JB> A Short Note on the Aharonov-Bohm Effect (Greenberger, Found.
JB> ofPhys.,'91) Quantum Zeno Effect (Itano et al, Phys.Rev A, 1
JB> March '90) Quantum Pot Watching (Pool, SCIENCE, Nov.'89)
JB> Spontaneous Order, Evolution, and Life (Research News, 30 March,
JB> '90) The Concept of Mass (Okun, Physics Today, June '89)
JB> Godel's Theorem and Information (Chaitin, Int.Jnl.Theo.Phys.,
JB> v21n12,'82) Observation of a "quantum eraser": A Revival of
JB> Coherence in a Two- Photon Interference Experiment (Kwiat et al,
JB> Phys. Rev. A, 1 June '92) Quantum Optical Ramsey Fringes and
JB> Complementarity (Scully, Appl.Phys.,'93) Quantum-Realistic
JB> Interpretation (von Weizsacker, Found.of Phys.v21n3, '91)

JB> --------------------


JB> When you have corrected both your awesome ignorance and your
JB> inaccurate understanding of the teachings of Jesus, perhaps we
JB> can re-discuss your formerly-irrational belief system.

JB> Peace.


JB> Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet
JB> Gate) : FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

JB> * Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... "Cannot say. Saying, I would know. Do not know. So, cannot say."-Zathros

JB> -!- PPoint 2.00
JB> ! Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)

Regards,

-=John=-


--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
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PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Puny weakling god
|Date: 05 Feb 97  09:04:20
EID:2e28 22454880
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
JB> Another: how would one distinguish between stories of
JB> God-manufactured events in the Bible, which _were_ actual events,
JB> and God-manufactured events therein which were only mental
JB> reachings and imagings of the human writer of the stor(ies)?

It's really quite simple, John. On the left side of a sheet of paper,
list all the scientific evidence for god.
On the right side of the paper, write "The bible is only the mental
reachings and imagings of the human writers of the stor(ies)".
Now, discard the blank half of the paper.


.JdB

--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Puny weakling god
|Date: 05 Feb 97  09:10:06
EID:2e28 22454940
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd4
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  12:25:14 John Brawley wrote to Jan deBoer...

JB> Compare: huge seaside granite cliff, solid, heavy, immense....
JB> Now the tidal wave, a mountain of powerful water smashing with
JB> incredible force against it.  Result?  (Wet granite....*g*)
JB> Now instead, gentle, small lappings of wavelets, through all the
JB> seasons, all the years for thousands and tens of thousands of
JB> them. Result?  Sand.  The granite cliff yields itself, crumbling
JB> to the gentle-over-time, rather than to the sudden-and-powerful.
JB> Now, which form of the waterborne effect is "Potent?"  Reduction
JB> of the granite is achieved not by the sudden and powerful, but by
JB> the weak, ever-present and constant.  "Omnipotent?"  I suggest an
JB> examination of what that actually may mean....

I suggest a re-acquaintance with the dictionary definition of
"omnipotent".
Considering that your god can create universes in six days, comparing
such power with the eroding ability of lapping waves over tens of
thousands of years comes over as 'slightly inadequate'?

Quantumly speaking, of course.

.JdB





JB> _gotten_  answered, but missed the answer....

Jd> Ah.....the all-powerful, all-knowing, infallible can't communicate?
Jd> ROTFL!

JB> Ah.....the weak, barely-aware, quite _fallible_ (human) can't
JB> MISS IT? All too often, men and/or women DO miss it, eh?


JB> (*grin*)  Sure, and I'd like to fly without non-body additions...
JB> . But a Rule says I can't do that.  Perhaps the God just can't do
JB> SOME specific things without using the same Rules --spaceTIME's
JB> Rules.

Jd> Hahahahaha...so now _YOU'RE_ puttling LIMITATIONS on god, - god the
Jd> ALMIGHTY, god the ALLPOWERFUL, God the OMNIPOTENT!
Jd> Ah, hahahahahaha lie upon lie upon lie upon fib upon whopper upon
Jd> pathological lie upon absurditiies from imbeciles.

JB> Settle back in your chair, fool.
JB> Such awesome displays of religious egomania are unbecoming to one
JB> who supposedly knows how to exercise humility, self-control, and
JB> the "Golden Rule."


JB> If our 'free will' (and perhaps God's as well) is dependent on the
JB> physics of the Universe (quantum nonlocality operative in protoplasm-
JB> brain or in Universe-brain), and not on God, then we _can't_ lose it.
JB> The ability to disobey the God would remain.   (And, you're using an
JB> ancient mythic paradigm ("Hell"), to make your point that there is
JB> something to avoid.)

Jd> Could you provide the bible reference for "quantum nonlocality
Jd> operative in protoplasm-brain".....my concordance seems to have missed
Jd> it...................

JB> You laugh from ignorance.  Ignorance is curable, provided the
JB> "righteous egomaniac" allows the doctor into his house....

JB> You asked:

JB> The Emperor's New Mind (Penrose)
JB> Godel, Escher, Bach (Hofstedter)
JB> Consciousness Explained (Dennett)
JB> QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter (Feynman)
JB> Presence of the Past (Sheldrake)
JB> The First Three Minutes (Weinberg)
JB> Superforce (Davies)
JB> Infinite in All Directions (Dyson)
JB> The God particle (Lederman)
JB> The Edge of Infinity (Davies)
JB> The Cosmic Blueprint (Davies)
JB> God and the New Physics (Davies)
JB> The Matter Myth (Davies)
JB> Quantum Reality (Herbert, Nick)
JB> The Mind of God (Davies)
JB> The New Physics (Davies)
JB> Cosmic Coincidences (Gribbin)
JB> The Monkey Puzzle (Gribbin)
JB> Spacewarps (Gribbin)
JB> Timewarps (Gribbin)
JB> In the Beginning : after COBE  (Gribbin)
JB> Black Holes and Baby Universes (Hawking)
JB> A Brief History of Time (Hawking)
JB> Faster Than Light (Stapp(?))
JB> Wholeness and the Implicate Order (Bohm)
JB> Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics (Bell)

JB> -----------
JB> The "Past" and the "Delayed-Choice" Double-Slit Experiment
JB> (Wheeler, in _Mathematical_Foundations_of_Quantum_Mechanics_,
JB> Academic Press, '78) Quantum Optical Tests of Complementarity
JB> (Scully, NATURE, May 9, 1991) The Duality in Matter and Light
JB> (Scully, Sci-Am '94) Delayed-Choice Experiments and the
JB> Bohr-Einstein Dialog (Wheeler) Bohm's Alternative to Quantum
JB> Mechanics (Albert, Sci-Am, May '94) Quantum Pinball (Ruthen,
JB> Sci-Am, Nov.'91) Faster than Light? (Chiao, Kwiat, Steinberg,
JB> Sci-Am, August '93) Path Detection and the Uncertainty Principle
JB> (Storey et al, NATURE v.367) Quantum Theory and Quack Theory (N.Y
JB> .Rev.of Books,(c)May 17, 1979 ) Quantum Philosophy (Horgan,
JB> Sci-Am, July '92) Cavity Quantum Electrodynamics (Haroche, Sci-Am
JB> , April '93) Can (Q-M) Description of Physical Reality Be
JB> Considered Complete? (Einstein, Phys.Rev., 1935) (This is the
JB> original EPR paper) Experimental Test of Bell's Inequalities
JB> Using Time-Varying Analyzers (Aspect, Phys. Rev. Ltrs., 1982)
JB> (This is the original Aspect/EPR paper) EPR and Bell's Theorem: A
JB> Critical Review (Stapp, Foundations of Physics,'90) On the
JB> Problem of Hidden Variables in Quantum Mechanics (Bell, Rev. of
JB> Modern Physics, July 1966) (This is the original 'Bell's Theorem'
JB> paper) Interpretation of the Quantum Formalism and Bell's Theorem
JB> (Santos, Foundations of Physics, '91)
JB> A Short Note on the Aharonov-Bohm Effect (Greenberger, Found.
JB> ofPhys.,'91) Quantum Zeno Effect (Itano et al, Phys.Rev A, 1
JB> March '90) Quantum Pot Watching (Pool, SCIENCE, Nov.'89)
JB> Spontaneous Order, Evolution, and Life (Research News, 30 March,
JB> '90) The Concept of Mass (Okun, Physics Today, June '89)
JB> Godel's Theorem and Information (Chaitin, Int.Jnl.Theo.Phys.,
JB> v21n12,'82) Observation of a "quantum eraser": A Revival of
JB> Coherence in a Two- Photon Interference Experiment (Kwiat et al,
JB> Phys. Rev. A, 1 June '92) Quantum Optical Ramsey Fringes and
JB> Complementarity (Scully, Appl.Phys.,'93) Quantum-Realistic
JB> Interpretation (von Weizsacker, Found.of Phys.v21n3, '91)

JB> --------------------


JB> When you have corrected both your awesome ignorance and your
JB> inaccurate understanding of the teachings of Jesus, perhaps we
JB> can re-discuss your formerly-irrational belief system.

JB> Peace.


JB> Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet
JB> Gate) : FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

JB> * Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... "Cannot say. Saying, I would know. Do not know. So, cannot say."-Zathros

JB> -!- PPoint 2.00
JB> ! Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)

Regards,

-=John=-


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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Re: Puny weakling god
|Date: 05 Feb 97  09:13:44
EID:2e28 224549a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd5
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  12:25:14 John Brawley wrote to Jan deBoer...

JB> If our 'free will' (and perhaps God's as well) is dependent on the
JB> physics of the Universe (quantum nonlocality operative in protoplasm-
JB> brain or in Universe-brain), and not on God, then we _can't_ lose it.

Now that the 'Trinity' diversion no longer produces an expression of awe
and stupefaction among the no-longer-quite-so-ignorant-masses, I gather
the forces of deception are now exploring new conveniently amorphous
worlds, and quantum physics and cosmology are ideally suited for
religious obfuscation and befuddlemment.
Al Schroeder is able to credit every scientific theory and discovery to
numerous barefooted, unwashed, berobed monks who, during the dark ages,
advanced the cause of science in their basement laboratories when not
busy burning heretics. With the advent of Taoism in Physics, you are now
laying the groundwork for a similar claim? After all, the Buddhist
monastary did predate the particle accelerator.

.JdB

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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Puny weakling god
|Date: 05 Feb 97  09:36:52
EID:2e28 22454c80
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd6
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  12:25:14 John Brawley wrote to Jan deBoer...

JB> When you have corrected both your awesome ignorance and your
JB> inaccurate understanding of the teachings of Jesus, perhaps we
JB> can re-discuss your formerly-irrational belief system.

When you have corrected your awesome arrogance, perhaps you can amuse us
some more with your comical belief-system, and your attempts to
integrate particle physics with the teachings of Mary Baker Eddy.

.JdB

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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Quantum reading
|Date: 05 Feb 97  10:04:12
EID:2a56 22455080
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 27 Jan 97  12:25:14 John Brawley wrote to Jan deBoer...


JB> The Emperor's New Mind (Penrose)
JB> Godel, Escher, Bach (Hofstedter)
JB> Consciousness Explained (Dennett)
JB> QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter (Feynman)

[Quantum deletia....]

JB> Phys. Rev. A, 1 June '92) Quantum Optical Ramsey Fringes and
JB> Complementarity (Scully, Appl.Phys.,'93) Quantum-Realistic
JB> Interpretation (von Weizsacker, Found.of Phys.v21n3, '91)

A shame you missed Teller's "The Atheism of Astronomy".....could have
saved you all those wasted years. Probably too late now, though.

.JdB
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  The bad old days
|Date: 05 Feb 97  09:47:30
EID:2822 22454de0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f8abd8
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 02 Feb 97  21:31:24 Ed Mills wrote to Jan deBoer...

EM> As the velocipede is my primary means of getting around, I am
EM> familiar with that sort of thing, although geezerhood is a state
EM> yet to be fully realized.

Geezerhood is the retirement phase of nerdness. Glasses are still
required, and receding hair an asset.
I do think some degree of cycle envy prompted the comment - after all,
how many mountain bikes have you seen with full fenders?


.JdB


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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Naked Pagan Rituals
|Date: 05 Feb 97  15:48:24
EID:5f47 22457e00
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2ba22232
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f8ac32
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of ROBERT CURRY to KAREN DAVIS:

KD>> The debunking is not the issue. I firmly believe people can
KD>> believe what they please, but I will debunk religious statements
KD>> when I have the opportunity. That's not antitheist.

RC> It's anti-bullshit.

Precisely.

I maintain that if bullshit were illegal we would need no
more than 10% of the laws we now have. But it's difficult
to implement with so many sprawling social systems founded
upon it.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Personal jabs
|Date: 05 Feb 97  16:11:46
EID:cd21 22458160
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32f6668b
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f8b20b
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH>> I know that though I've inherited a Scottish heritage, my
DH>> number one goal is to be a useful, contributing Canadian.

DC> Considering the Quebe‡ois are there, couldn't that be considered  an
DC> oxymoron?    

Gee, are my prejudices showing? "Contributing Canadian" would
indeed be an oxymoron to a francophone. They can sue me (and will
of course have the right to have the entire trial conducted
in French).

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 05 Feb 97  17:12:06
EID:f39e 22458980
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f6d18a
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f8bfd4
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH>> And the reason that children suffer horrible deaths from
DH>> cancer is?

KY>  Do I know everything?  No, I am not God..  Perhaps you should  ask
KY> Him that..

I was expecting you to do it. You're the one with the communication
with a god.

KY> But perhaps, we are to fault..  We have made this world what it
KY> currently is, diseases and all..

You have been lied to, big time. Boy are you gonna be pissed
if you ever grow up.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 05 Feb 97  17:14:28
EID:f39e 224589c0
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f6d232
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f8c0e3
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH>> Which people exactly are responsible for the desertification of
DH>> northern Africa?

KY> Mankind in general is responsible for what is wrong in the world.

KY> I am sorry for those children, but it is the fault of their society,
KY> not God.

You keep claiming this, but have failed to provide any evidence
whatsoever. Are you planning to offer evidence, to admit you
don't have any, or to just keep spinning?

KY>> Besides, with how we have been screwing up with the atmosphere, it
is
KY>> a wonder the weather isn't more screwed up.  Anyway, God lets these
KY>> happen, He doesn't cause them.

Allowing them to happen is as evil as causing them to happen, if
your god has the power to stop them. Or are you saying he can't?

DH>> How do YOU know?

KY> Would you buy, "word of knowledge?"  :)

No chance. Knowledge is a consensus of observations of facts
and truth. You've presented nothing but bullshit.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Paul Boyer
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Fundies
|Date: 05 Feb 97  21:57:59
EID:0a80 2245af20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
-=> Quoting David Ragland to Don Martin <=-

DR> Atheism is a religion that purports faith in the _absence_ of
DR> God. It's followers _hope_ they are not wrong, but their doubt is
DR> patently conspicuous.  It is even evident in the definition that you
DR> gave me, you just can't or won't see it.  Thus, there are no _true_
DR> atheists.  Only millions of self-deluded pretenders.  God gave his only
DR> begotten Son that you may be forgiven for what you have said and done
DR> in this life so far, man.  Why do you mock this manifestation of the
DR> ultimate love from our Creator by rejecting your own personal
DR> salvation? 

Atheism is a NON-religion -- it requires no faith -- which purports dis-
belief in the existence of GODS.  Not your Christian god alone, but ALL
gods.
Understand?

As for being self-deluded, I would suggest you look in the mirror.  There's
no self-delusion involved in atheism.

There is no salvation, God-boy.  Only oblivion.


Paul


... Jesus Christ: Imaginary Playmate to Millions of Adults!
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Joseph McCabe
|Date: 05 Feb 97  10:11:10
EID:0f61 22455160
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95921
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  17:38:54 Dave Hamilton wrote to Jan deBoer...

Jd> Have you ever read any of
Jd> Joseph McCabe's books?

DH> No, would you have a title or two?

The Popes and their Church - A Candid Account

The Bankruptcy of Religion

Twelve Years in a Monastary

There are many more, as McCabe was a prolific writer. Some works are
availalble on the internet, and American Atheists have reprinted some.
You certainly won't find any in your local library! Should you chance
upon one at a yard sale or old bookstore, grab it.....if you don't want
it, I'll _gladly_ reimburse.
McCabe was a Catholic Priest, self taught greek and roman, and fluent in
French and German. He became disillusioned with the corruption, sloth,
and hypocrisy of his fellow priests, and left the church, becoming one
of its most vocal critics.

One of the well-known (at one time [:-)  ) American 'muckrakers', Upton
Sinclair, "the Jungle", is less known for his "The Profits of
Religion". You won't find that in your library either - not as long as
any minister's wife is on library staff - bit it too is available on
the internet. Just do a web  search for the author name.
Or, I can upload "Profits of Religion" locally.

.JdB



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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  A toast to dracula
|Date: 05 Feb 97  23:41:54
EID:a5f0 2245bd20
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f91ac2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  23:44:26 Ken Young wrote to Jan deBoer...

Jd> Symbolic of christian cannibilism?

KY> No, but thanks for playing, anyway..
KY> It is symbolic for the sacrifice CHrist made on the cross, so we
KY> could be saved from sin.

[dogmatic deletiamatic]


KY> Maybe because you don't understand it..
KY> It is simply symbols to remember what Christ did for us.
KY> WHat's so ddifficult?  We are all sinners, so to save us from sin
KY> , Jesus bought us a chance for eternal freedom.  And Christians
KY> remember this, during communion.

Ever had someone give you something, or do you a favour, and you
express your gratitude. But they relentlessy remind you of what they did
for you, until you're so sick of hearing it that you want to return the
gift and tell them where to stick it? Your god seems to have the same
personality trait.
Do you expect the ants in your garden to weekly bow down and worship
you, and get out their guitars and harps and serenade you? Do you
threaten to pour gasoline on them and burn them in agony if they don't?
I think your god has the same mental sociopathy as his human creators.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  A "Swiftie"!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:59:02
EID:2967 22455f60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95923
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 04 Feb 97  11:46:02 Laurie Appleton wrote to Jim Staal...

LA> Thanks for letting me know. Some evolutionists seem to go
LA> to almost any lengths to mislead and deceive as they
LA> desperately try to take as many as they can to Hell with
LA> them!

But none can top the deception of LIAR LAURIE when he claims to have
stolled around Mt. St. Helens with "former President Harry Truman" a
decade AFTER Truman died.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:14:12
EID:e493 224561c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95924
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 04 Feb 97  11:46:50 Laurie Appleton wrote to Dan Ceppa...

LA> (Earth in Upheaval, sequel to "Worlds in Collision", Immanuel
LA> Velikovsky, 1956, page 6)

Velokovsky as your 'authority' again? 

LA> So is the "Present the Key to the Past" or was that a
LA> major evolutionary claim that was completely wrong?

It must when Lying Laurie Appletoon can take strolls around Mt. St.
Helens with "former President Harry Truman" a decade after Truman died!



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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  dos internet
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:30:52
EID:1a4b 224563c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95925
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97  14:06:10 ROBERT CURRY wrote to DAVID WORRELL...

DW> Someone here was recently talking about accessing the
DW> Internet with DOS.

DW> I stumbled upon the following URL that might be of help:
DW> http://www.fdisk.com/doslynx/

RC> Well, they'll first need a TCP/IP program to establish
RC> connectivity to begin with before being able to use that
RC> text-based web browser (except with their own local HTML files).

RC> For accessing the Internet, you could call the TCP/IP program a
RC> requirement, even.

Nope! I can access the internet, using the same Qmodem software that I
also access local BBS's with.
All you need is an Internet provider that offers text-only access.
MANY Freenets use this mode ONLY, and are running LYNX.
Check your local Freenet.

.JdB


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Duh
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:37:40
EID:d9a3 224564a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95926
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 04 Feb 97  01:01:52 Ken Young wrote to Martin Goldberg...

KY> Yes, He can get us to do whatever He wants to do, but He doesn't
KY> want it that way..  WOuld be kind of a totalitarian God, then.
KY> Rather, He is a God of free will and liberty, and thus, gives us
KY> our choices.

Free will under an all-knowing creator is a logical absurdity.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   fawaz rust
|Sub:  hi there
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:48:46
EID:2775 22456600
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95927
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
28 Jan 97 02:41, fawaz rust wrote to All:

fr> hey there is anyone know what a zoroastrian is

Any movie in which the part of an astronaut is played by Zorro.

.JdB


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 05 Feb 97  13:06:06
EID:6c3f 224568c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95928
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 04 Feb 97  01:17:10 Ken Young wrote to Katherine Wintersnight...

KY> DC> Tough luck, bucko, but Hitler _was_ an xian.

KY>Nice try, but no, he was an Occultist.  Look at his
KY>beliefs, rather than the
KY>propaganda you have been fed.

KW> So?  Since when has being an occultist had anything to do with whether
KW> or not a particular person was xtian?  What religion did you think
KW> Thomas Aquinas practised, anyway?

KY> Are you kidding?  Occultism and CHristianity are at opposite
KY> sides of the fence..

KY> I believe he was a catholic..

So Catholics are Occutists?

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  Left Field
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:36:06
EID:c7e7 22459480
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f9592d
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 29 Jan 97  20:13:00 Ronald Vass wrote to Jan Deboer...

JD>Odd no one shows up on Benny Hinn to have their non-floating axe cured.

RV> Assumeing it a TV show you talking about, either way, I'm out in
RV> left field.

Benny Hinn is a slick 90's version of the travelling Evangelist tent
show, with in-between stints as a televangelist.  He's into the 'thump
'em on the forehead', or 'pop their ears' performances, and assistants
catch the 'healed' as they swoon from the touch of the almighty.
Hair is the definitive feature among the televangelist set, and Benny
has an extreme Rene Levesque type comb-over to cover the thinning top.
Looks wierd. But, what the heck, in between road shows he rests in his
Florida mansion, and toodles around in his Mercedes. God is good.
It helps, too, when you rake in the cash in a city like Toronna, and
pocket it all tax-free.
Benny only does the standard faith-healer cures, as outlined by James
Randhi in his book, "The Faith Healers", e.g. 'deafness', bad backs,
impending surgery (NEVER a follow-up!). Dunno if he does 'roids, I
think that's Pat Robertson's medical specialty. Strange that no aids
patients ever show up.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Uri Tidhar
|Sub:  God's religion
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:54:06
EID:5d57 224596c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f9592e
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 30 Jan 97  00:36:42 Uri Tidhar wrote to All...

UT> What is god's religion?

Why, the same as yours, of course! He's a Mason (n'th degree) too, but
that's a secret.

.JdB


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Fakes, Frauds and Scams.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:56:20
EID:bc1f 22459700
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f9592f
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  15:42:08 Laurie Appleton wrote to Rick Mcfarlane...

LA> One can see their problem. They are DESPERATE for any
LA> evidence to support their hopeless theory and grasp at
LA> almost anything to try to make their case, even when they
LA> have to BEND their evidence to try to get away with their
LA> misleading deceptions and distortions!

And you're so desperate to impress that you make up stories about
strolling around Mt. St. Helens with "former President Harry Truman" a
decade AFTER Truman died!

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Becoming Incredible.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  18:58:28
EID:8823 22459740
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95930
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  15:41:28 Laurie Appleton wrote to Rick Mcfarlane...

LA> There has yet to be ANY "successfully" dated fossil of
LA> anything anyway, but evolutionary dating of the Castenodolo
LA> and Calaveras put them in the Pliocene which is given dates
LA> by some of 7-12 million years.

But you claim to have succesfully dated "former President Harry Truman"
as you strolled around Mt. St. Helens with him, a decade AFTER he died.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Unanswered prayer
|Date: 05 Feb 97  19:36:28
EID:d65d 22459c80
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95931
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 29 Jan 97  10:37:00 Al Schroeder wrote to Martin Goldberg...

AS> another might pray for a male harem, a third might pray for
AS>  unlimited power. What will be really interesting if some of
AS>  their prayers  are contradictory. (Look at any war, for
AS> instance.)

MG> Saddling your almightly with humanity again?  Tsk, Al...you'll be sent
MG> to the little room in hell reserved for non believers.

AS> Wouldn't surprise me, corrupted by my friends....
AS> But we're back at the God who cannot do logical inconsistencies
AS> thing again. Which the above is a prime example.

no, that's where you're trying to take it.....you're back at the god who
ignores the prayers of children with leukemia and child rape victims.

"Although it is not lawful to lie, or to feign what is not, however it
is lawful to dissemble what is, or to cover the truth with words or
other ambiguous and doubtful signs for a just cause." - Christian
"ethics".

.JdB


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Al lies again
|Date: 05 Feb 97  20:11:52
EID:eb51 2245a160
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95932
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 29 Jan 97  11:00:42 Al Schroeder wrote to Mark Kimes...

AS> Ummm. (A) The Inquisition was not founded on Augustinian
AS> principles particularly and (B) Augustine didn't witness the
AS> Inquisition during his lifetime, a trifling matter of roughly a
AS> thousand years being between them, so he didn't have any horror
AS> of it, not having seen it.

QUOTING AUGUSTINE:

"Therefore, if we wish to speak and acknowledge the truth, the
persecution is unjust which the wicked employ against the Church of
Christ, BUT THAT PERSECUTION IS JUST WHICH THE CHURCH EMPLOYS AGAINST
THE WICKED." - Epist. 50.  Anno 417

.JdB


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  Tampering with evidence
|Date: 05 Feb 97  20:28:30
EID:7fae 2245a380
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95933
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 30 Jan 97  16:31:00 Roger Hunter wrote to Paul Davis...

RH>> ... Belief without evidence is no more than self delusion. ___ Blue
RH>> Wave/QWK v2.12

PD>> Belief with evidence is no longer belief.

RH> Uh....it's a tag line, Paul.

PD> I thought it was a comment to do with the post it came from actually.
PD> Does that
PD> make it any more true then being a tagline? ;)

"Belief is not a private matter which concerns ourselves alone. Every
belief may lead to action affecting our fellows. Therefore it is our
duty to believe only truths established by long experience and free and
fearless questioning. To believe on insufficient evidence may in a given
case do no great harm, but it does at least this harm, that I make
myself credulous. Consequently, it is wrong, always, everywhere, and for
anyone to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."
William Kingdon Clifford, Philosopher, Professor of Applied Mathematics,
University College, London, 1877.


.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  A toast to dracula
|Date: 05 Feb 97  20:49:00
EID:a5f0 2245a620
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95934
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  23:44:26 Ken Young wrote to Jan deBoer...

KY> Maybe because you don't understand it..
KY> It is simply symbols to remember what Christ did for us.

Did for us - Oh, the phony death thing......hell, a dozen actors do that
for us every day on TV - what's the big deal?

KY> WHat's so ddifficult?  We are all sinners,

Speak for yuorself, but I'm not. I've lived an exemplary life. Sure, I
masturbated when I was a kid, but who doesn't? Hell, I'll bet I've been
a nicer guy than even Jesus himself. He didn't give my niece a
typewriter for college.

KY> , Jesus bought us a chance for eternal freedom.

I don't want anything eternal - sounds too much like insurance.

KY>  And Christians remember this, during communion.

Must be pretty bad if you have to drink wine to remember it.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  AL'S DELIBERATE DELUS
|Date: 05 Feb 97  21:03:56
EID:2777 2245a860
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95935
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 30 Jan 97  17:13:00 Roger Hunter wrote to Marilyn Burge...

RH> Lends support to my thesis that the driving force behind religion
RH> is cowardice.

Interesting.I've long wondered what the attraction was, and concluded it
was pure and simple arrogance. i.e. I'm better than you are because I
hold these unassailable beliefs, and try as you will, you can't disprove
them, and I can lie an evade and there's nothing you can do about it.
Nyah, nyah.
It's a psychological power game, pure and simple.



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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  21:14:18
EID:548c 2245a9c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95936
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  02:11:08 Ken Young wrote to Joseph Keenan...


KY> Why is it so difficult to understand?  We have the free will to
KY> decide to go to Heaven or Hell..  To follow God or Satan..  There
KY> is a choice involved, just not as much as you might prefer.

Free will under an all-knowing creator is a logical absurdity.

.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  Direct Dialling
|Date: 05 Feb 97  21:27:18
EID:33c7 2245ab60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95937
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  08:41:44 Ken Young wrote to Fredric Rice...

FR> Ah, yes...  The latest "end times..."  about the
FR> 7,000th since Paul/Saul created the death cult.

FR> Perhaps you should actually crack open your paper idol
FR> and read what it says, Ken.  The so-called "Jesus"
FR> mythos was made to claim that it would return within
FR> the lifetimes of its followers.

FR> Guess what?  They're all dead.

KY> The Bible never says that it was to happen within their time.

Better read it for yourself, moron.

KY> And seeing how this is the first time with our technology that it
KY> could happen, and I see prophecy being fulfilled all over the
KY> place, what with current events and all, we must be living in end
KY> times.

Your all-powerful god needs OUR technology to return?????
GUFFAW!!!!!!!!!

.JdB


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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  Hello? Hello...HELLO
|Date: 05 Feb 97  21:50:52
EID:a7bb 2245ae40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95938
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 31 Jan 97  13:35:00 Ronald Vass wrote to Jan Deboer...

JD>On 27 Jan 97  12:58:54 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...

JD> AS> Obviously, I don't think the Bible is true because the Bible says
JD> AS> so. But it is claimed to be a mode of communication between God
and
JD> AS> Man.

JD> Jd> The same claim is made for chicken entrails.....

JD> AS> Well, some mothers think chicken soup is a gift from God...

JD>I thought it was a gift from the chickens.

RV> Al doesn't know of the difference between a god or a chicken.
RV> Cute.

Al's god is a turkey?

.JdB



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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Leonard Bernier
|Sub:  Palms109:24-25 / Mark 15:29-30
|Date: 05 Feb 97  22:05:42
EID:4660 2245b0a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f95939
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
RAISE DOGS!

LB> I will build My church, and the gates of hades shall not prevail
LB> against it. (Matthew 16:18)
1

And he huffed, and he puffed, and he BBBBBBBBLEWWW the church down
(The Three Little Pigs, p9)

Jesus Slaves           North Bay, ONTARIO MIKE HARRAS COUNTREE!


.JdB

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|From: Jan deBoer
|To:   Leonard Bernier
|Sub:  Re: PSALM 3:33
|Date: 05 Feb 97  22:09:02
EID:fba7 2245b120
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32f9593a
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
BRAISE GOD !

LB> PROPHECY: - The Messish nose and ears will be pierced.
LB> Body Art pierced My nipples and My navel.

LB> FUFILLMENT: "And when they came to the place called BodyArt,
LB> there they peirced Him."


Ontario Hospital, Ward 9          North Bay, ONT.


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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Jan deBoer
|Sub:  A toast to dracula
|Date: 05 Feb 97  23:45:08
EID:3809 2245bda0
CHRS: IBMPC 2
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f91ac2
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f91bfa
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Jan deBoer to Ken Young:

Jd>> Symbolic of christian cannibilism?

KY>> No, but thanks for playing, anyway..
KY>> It is symbolic for the sacrifice CHrist made on the cross, so we
KY>> could be saved from sin.

"Take, eat: This is my body which was given for you."

"Drink ye all of this, my blood, and remember me."

Somebody ought to tell all the sacremental churches so they
can correct their horrible misunderstandings.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Jan deBoer
|Sub:  Planned freewill
|Date: 05 Feb 97  13:53:18
EID:0b2c 22456ea0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 cfc78359
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32f6409f
On (02 Feb 97) Jan deBoer wrote to Jim Staal...

JS> Read Revelation.

Jd> Much more fun to watch Jock van Impe and Rexella read it.

JS> yeah, and they are from  Michigan. I used to watch his show
JS> back in 1979 when I first got saved (he is alleged to be the
JS> 'walking Bible') but when I discovered him making his 'astounding
JS> predictions' based on scripture taken out of context, I dropped
JS> it.

Jd> If you were watching van Impe and Rexella, AFTER being saved, this
Jd> does cast some aspersions on the quality of your 'saviour'.
Jd> Or maybe you don't have cable.

That's how I came acrossed them-on cable. I was checking out what was
available in Christian programing and was evaluating. Prior to being
saved I had no desire to even check it out.

Jd> Out of context?...but Rexella invariably AGREES.

Well, yes...and out of context, of course. ;)



... Love to chat, but I must get back to the ritual sacrifice!

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  the promise keepers
|Date: 05 Feb 97  14:03:28
EID:1571 22457060
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 d699f05e
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f7cab0
On (04 Feb 97) Dave Hamilton wrote to Jim Staal...

DH> About a message of Jim Staal to Rod Swift:

JS>  You are merely a blatant liar evidencing only his own ignorance and
JS> penchant for shooting of his mouth with nothing to back it up with,
JS> fact-wise.

DH> You have just provided the job description of any ordained minister.

DH> Most fundies do it, but ministers get paid for it.

Please re-read my statement and apply it to yourself as well, Dave (if
you were doing other than a tongue in cheek statement, intended for
comedy relief)

... Let all things be done decently and in order. (1 Cor 14:40)

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 05 Feb 97  14:05:49
EID:8cd4 224570a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f5eeb4a6
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f7cb70
On (04 Feb 97) Dave Hamilton wrote to Jim Staal...

DH>  KY>> Oh, I agree completely..  However, at least with Koresh, he
DH> never  KY>> claimed to be the Messiah.

JS> I was under the impression (from reading much about the man and his
JS> claims - he attracted my attention by being a musician and
JS> songwriter) that he claimed to be God incarnate.

DH> And here you've been telling us you read nothing but the bible,
DH> using that as an excuse to have never seen the black-and-white
DH> part of a dictionary.

I do follow the news and current events.

DH> So Koresh never claimed to be a messiah, but some of his followers
DH> thought he must have been. Sound familiar?

I still believe I am correct in saying he claimed to be the Messiah.


... Save burnt out lighttbulbs...I need them for my darkroom.

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Pedophile Christian cooks / NAMBLA
|Date: 05 Feb 97  14:06:43
EID:02b0 224570c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 5b0f86ab
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f7d8e2
On (05 Feb 97) Dave Hamilton wrote to Jim Staal...

JS> For one, I don't think Mabon is a Calvinist. :) Also, articles
JS> appearing in the official publication of the church (The Banner) take
JS> just the opposite approach of mister Mabon concerning gay issues.

DH> Excellent. When can be expect the first ordained gay minister?

_Practicing_ gay minister? It ain't gonna happen.

DH> Before or after the first female?

We already gottem...and right here in River City.

DH>  DH>> What I did to determine the validity of the CRC
DH>  DH>> high schools was to call the university where I teach and ask
DH> them  DH>> how many students had ever in 30 years been accepted from
DH> CRC high  DH>> schools. This isn't scientific, but it is the
DH> university one of my  DH>> kids wants to attend. Answer: zero.

JS>  And that university is...? Relevance?

DH> Trent University, Canada.

DH> The relevance is that a private xtian twelfth grade education
DH> qualifies you to work at General Motors if you are exceedingly
DH> lucky and happen to be one of the accepted 5,000 applicants that
DH> compete every year for 40 jobs. It does not qualify you to
DH> pursue a decent education.

Evidence to back up this absurdity? For one, check out the background
education of most of the professors with doctorates at Calvin College.
You are debunked on this one fact alone, Dave.

JS>  That can be obtained. The evidence that I have seen suggests that in
JS> West Michigan, the education receive in our schools consistantly
JS> surpasses that of the local public schools.

DH> No, that is your opinion. It is evidence in no way whatsoever.
DH> Evidence would include the percentage of students who have duly earned
DH> postgraduate degrees compared with the percentage of students from
DH> the public system.

No, that is public record. And not all individuals who have the
potential pursue postgraduate dgrees. Not relevant.

DH> I have yet to see a separate school whose supporters failed to
DH> believe their students exceeded average standards, when in fact
DH> there is zero evidence to support this. We're not talking about
DH> something that may have happened six thousand years ago here. This
DH> can be measured.

And documented.

DH> I have asked the principal of the local CRC high school for these
DH> figures, and imagine! He has to look them up and get back to me.
DH> How could he not even know?

Why would he need this info off the top of his head? You can't provide
stats for the 'facts' you are claiming here.

DH> I personally don't accept claims that either home schooling or
DH> parochial schooling comes even close to matching the standards
DH> of the pathetic public systems. If you have any evidence to the
DH> contrary, I'll be happy to hear it.

Home schooling is a scourge and a copout and the results, IMHO, are
social and intellectual dwarfs.


... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)

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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Feb 97  14:13:41
EID:73e2 224571a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 ba4f267e
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f7cf4d
On (05 Feb 97) Dave Hamilton wrote to Jim Staal...

DH>  DH>> Should they?

JS>  As a Christian, I say definitly. As an American, I have to say no.
I
JS> would rather have God bring about a moral revival in the hearts of
JS> the  people than have Congress legislate our personal lives.

DH> It looks like you're saying that your sense of American community
DH> is more important to your behaviour than your sense of Christian
DH> morality.

Not by any means. My behaviour does not depend on my sense of American
community.

DH> That you will abide by the law of the land if you have
DH> to choose. Is that right?

As long as the law of the land does not _require_ me to trangress the
laws of God.



... Hey, it's my turn to sleep in the middle.

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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Jan deBoer
|Sub:  Educational Experience
|Date: 05 Feb 97  14:17:01
EID:ee5a 22457220
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 b3baa365
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32f81bbb
On (04 Feb 97) Jan deBoer wrote to Jim Staal...

Jd> On 03 Feb 97  12:49:50 Jim Staal wrote to Rod Swift...

JS> And you, sir, are an ignorant liar! You know nothing of me, and
JS> certainly from your post, you know nothing of the inspiration of
JS> Jesus.

Jd> Neither do you. You never met Jesus, (unless you hallucinate), and all
Jd> the 'accounts' of him are third-hand (or worse) gossip.
Jd> THere isn't a shred of evidence such a person ever existed, but plenty
Jd> of evidence for the plagiarization of the 'legend'.

Ahh...spoken as one who has not felt/experienced the touch of God. I
_have_ met Jesus in a spiritual sense and He lives within me via His
Holy Spirit.

... Mom said carrots are good for my eyes, but it hurts when I insert 'em.

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  Educational Experienc
|Date: 05 Feb 97  14:18:41
EID:2b6d 22457240
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 86fa09b7
REPLY: 1:207/212      6a429185
On (03 Feb 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...

KD> On (30 Jan 97) Jim Staal wrote to Rod Swift...

JS>  Perjorative is a noun.

KD> Not according to Websters [which spells it without any r's, BTW] It
is
KD> defined FIRST as an adjective.

I'll agree with your account of the spelling (I just copied it from his
post)

Now lessee (where are those glasses...hmmm...oh well, here is other
pair) my New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary shows it both ways, with the
adj. form first as well (they list in alphabetical order, after all) so
he wins one. (stinkeeng chair is crooked now...)

... Save on toilet paper...use both sides!

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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  A "Swiftie"!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  14:23:42
EID:ad28 224572e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c733261c
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89117705
On (04 Feb 97) Laurie Appleton wrote to Jim Staal...

LA> Hi Jim,
LA>  (Re: yours of 22-Jan-1997, "Peculiar State of Mind.")

JS>   BTW, Laurie, can you imagine the impudence of Rod Swift
JS> masquerading as you and then directing me to a web site
JS> showing him smooching on his boyfriend!?

LA>   Thanks for letting me know.

No prob. We have to look out for each other, you know. :)

LA>    Rod seems to be infected with might be called
LA>  "Theophobia"

This. This is most evident on IRC.

... Fight the good fight of faith. - 1 Timothy 6:12

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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  witch burnings
|Date: 05 Feb 97  14:27:44
EID:3911 22457360
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 083d2556
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32f64508
On (03 Feb 97) Judith Bandsma wrote to All...

JB> I AM NOT UNCOMFORTABLE...I AM MAD AS HELL.

Oh well...not the first time, you know. As much as I may not agree with
Al's actions, you have the tendancy to speak loudly and carry a wet
paper match.

... I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 6 million.

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|From: Ed Mills
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  FAQ!
|Date: 04 Feb 97  20:33:37
EID:d130 2244a420
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 1ac9e866
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 74880ab6
30 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Martin Goldberg to Ed Mills:

MG>  MG>> I almost never go to movies.
EM> I hardly do, either, VCR.

MG> My name isn't "VCR".

Shirley you jest.

I think the second comma was spozeta be a colon.

edweird


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|From: Ed Mills
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  The Fickle Finger
|Date: 04 Feb 97  20:35:45
EID:1785 2244a460
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 fc6ba617
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 74880c9c
30 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Martin Goldberg to Ed Mills:

MG>  MG>> I've always wondered what this "personal savior" bullshit
MG>  MG>> was about. Is it something like a deoderant?
EM> No, it's more like a really humongous Fleet enema.

MG> Administered by someone in chain mail carrying a spear.

Beat me Daddy, eight to the hose.

Or how about: Little Pink Hoses  (John Cougar Enemacamp)

And then there was that other song:

High colonic, the songs that you sing
And the stories you tell...

(John Denver)

edweird

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|From: Ed Mills
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Pasta, my ass! It's
|Date: 04 Feb 97  20:42:36
EID:67da 2244a540
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 9c1f175e
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ef00b2
29 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Rod Swift to Ed Mills:

EM> Do you think that being afflicted with supernatural belief is a
EM> main cause of this oppression, or a parallel, independent disease?

RS> I think it is causally linked.  Christian homophobia is different
RS> to other homophobia.  Many people have violent homophobic
RS> reactions due to experiences past.  Christians rarely do, and are
RS> carrying out their bible's social agenda.

Oh, we've got some pretty violently homophobic xtians around these
parts, I dare say. Not quite as blatantly so as the other cracker-
assed pinheads, but still...

RS> The majority of the non-religious types, however, are not out to
RS> destroy (by legislation) the rights of gay people.  Their fear is
RS> somewhat legitimised as it is a personal expression of their own
RS> revulsion at possibly being gay.

But from the looks of some of them, (Mabon, Helms, et al) it seems like

their malevolence is the primary thing and the religion is just a tool
they've learned to use.

RS> They also state "I don't care what they do in private, as long as
RS> they don't hit on me".  An expression of their own interests.

You don't think that the non-religious gay-basher type isn't just
trying to exert another kind of control, i.e., baseball-bat vs.
legislation?

Hey- there's a new sport! Gay-basher-shooting. Get all la-de-da,
lure a bunch of 'em (with their baseball bats) into a dark alley
and administer some .45-caliber social Darwinism. I'm kind of
surprised that hasn't happened already, come to think of it.

edweird


--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Andrew Masten
|Sub:  "Flat Earth" Town
|Date: 04 Feb 97  15:29:00
EID:7508 22447ba0
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 32f5585a
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f79c0c
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Andrew Masten said to Richard Smith about "Flat Earth" Town:

JS> Imagine a town where women can be arrested for wearing
JS> shorts in  public, where people caught smoking or
JS> whistling on the streets can be thrown  in jail, where
JS> cigarettes, lipstick, life insurance, high heels,
JS> alcohol, and  certain foods such as bacon, ham, and
JS> oysters are strictly forbidden.  Imagine a place where
JS> there are no doctor's offices, drugstores,  theaters,
JS> places to dance-a community of born-again
JS> fundamentalists presided  over by a Bible-wielding
JS> dictator who believed the world was flat as a pancake
JS> and going to hell in a handbasket.  Long-time callers to
JS> Blue Moon may remember that I
SA> Hmm. 
am> Imagine a world where all voluntarily lived by the golden 
am> rule, treat others as they would be treated. No wars, no 
am> armies to support.
RS> Obviously not a religious world, since all the major wars
RS> have had some religious connotation.
am> I never said anything about religion, just the golden rule.

So?  I was providing commentary.  Besides, you were CLEARLY
headed in that direction.  Remember, you've been posting
here for a long time.  Many of us know in what direction
you're headed.

am> No need for police or courts.
RS> Just like the former Soviet Union?
am> Huh?

How soon they forget . . .

am> No locks on houses stores or cars.
RS> Why not?  Locks can be used for more than preventing theft.
am> Some seem to enjoy locking themselves out of thier own cars.

Do you not have small children, Andrew?  Have you never
heard of putting a lock on dangerous machinery or cabinets
that hold industrial poisons, etc., just for the safety of
the child?  Or is it light comedy that you prefer to tout
here?

am> No poverty or starvation.
RS> Again, sounds like the religion has been cut out of this
RS> society, since every religious country that I've seen or
RS> heard of has has both poverty AND starvation.
am> This country has had a Judeo-Christian ethic

Which one might that be?

am> since its inception and has faired quite well.

The slaves, the starving in Appalachia, the inner-city
children who forever ruin their future by eating lead paint
chips, the homeless shivering in the cold and dark, they'll
all be glad to hear that, Andrew.

I believe your attitude to be a bit cavalier here.

am> Though we are a constitutional goverment, the cornerstone
am> of our democracy is that men are endowed by a creator
am> with inalienable rights.

Ahem.  This isn't exactly accurate.  They are endowed by
THEIR creator (in whatever form that may be, from parent to
themselves [the self-made man credo, for instance, a basis
of our free-market economy] to Deity to Deities to etc.),
NOT _A_ creator (as if there is only one!) . . . it may seem
like semantic quibling to you, but it is a very important
and clear distinction.

am> Booming economies.
RS> Based on what?
am> Wars and crime to mention two, take a staggering toll 
am> on the world economy.

Andrew, War FEEDS the economy.  Vietnam was big business
incarnate.  Crime encourages the circulation of money and
goods that, though illegal, are still circulating in a
region where none might otherwise circulate: the lower
classes.  Get rid of War AND Crime, and you have to find
some other GNP to beg around.  I note, btw, that you didn't
answer my question.  Going to anytime soon?

am> No rape, murder or mayhem.
RS> Definitely doesn't sound like any Xtian country 
RS> I've ever heard of . . .
am> Neither does the diatribe I responded to.

Do you mean:

JS> Imagine a town where women can be arrested for wearing
JS> shorts in  public, where people caught smoking or
JS> whistling on the streets can be thrown  in jail, where
JS> cigarettes, lipstick, life insurance, high heels,
JS> alcohol, and  certain foods such as bacon, ham, and
JS> oysters are strictly forbidden.  Imagine a place where
JS> there are no doctor's offices, drugstores,  theaters,
JS> places to dance-a community of born-again
JS> fundamentalists presided  over by a Bible-wielding
JS> dictator who believed the world was flat as a pancake
JS> and going to hell in a handbasket.  Long-time callers to
JS> Blue Moon may remember that I

Hell, Andrew . . . it has a basis in Xtain tenets, from what
I see of it.

am> Children could roam freely without fear of wierdo's.
RS> Wierdo being an elastic term . . .

No answer for this one?

am> If your car broke down, you would wave down the first
am> motorist and they would give you a ride.
RS> I've had that happen to me today.

Nor this?

am> Unprecedented wealth and plenty for all.
RS> If there's wealth and plenty, why would there be a
RS> need for an economy?  Ever read Keyes, Andrew?
am> Perhaps there wouldn't.

Not sure Keyes would agree with that either . . . 

am> Its difficult to imagine a world where people willfully
am> lived by the golden rule which Christ said summed up the
am> law and the prophets.

See?  I told you you were headed in this direction . . .

RS> Wonder where Christ got it from, since it predates his
RS> supposed existence?
am> Thats very true. All the great moral teachers preached 
am> the same lesson in various ways.

Well, I'm not absolutely convinced of this, but I'll give it
to you for the sake of argument.

am> You just think that God is some miserable tyrant who
am> wants all to be miserable.

Which God?

RS> Too bad the Bible contradicts you.
am> Thats just a lie, God wants prosperity, peace and joy
am> for all.

I see.  That's why he killed the first born of Egypt, the
children and women of the Midianites, etc.  So that the
chosen people, HIS chosen people, could take property, etc.

RS> That's why he's so into torture and suffering?
am> Were that the case, we'd of been exterminated along
am> time ago.

So Hell, a torture chamber of the ultimate magnitude,
personally created and set up by your Deity for the eternal
suffering of his children against their will, doesn't really
exist?  Face it Andrew, the perfect love line doesn't work
for an entity that has hot lead already boiling if you dare
disagree.


... "I'm not a chowderhead!  I'm MISTER Chowderhead!!":  Andrew Masten
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:19:02
EID:7ae3 22438a60
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f4ad44
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f66456
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dave Hamilton said to Richard Smith about Hypocritical people:

DH> About a message of Richard Smith to Dave Hamilton:
ky> I know most would disagree, but I do not believe there is
ky> any population problem at all.. More like a distribution
ky> problem, than one having to do with over population.
DH> You appear to be proud of your utter lack of education.
RS> Amazing, isn't it?  Another proud member of the Duh
RS> Staalin Club . . .
DH> I think these latest rocket scientists are more honest
DH> than Jimbo, if as dumb.

Well, they'd _have_ to be!

DH> Welcome back.

Nice to be back.  Really.  I went through withdrawl like
nothing I'd ever gone through before . . . 

DH> Did you get moved?

 Yep.  Now for the unpacking.  This is our
first house (as in buying) and I'm finding out why they say
that owning a house is a sign of a dedicated hobbyist . . .


Glad to see you here holding down the fort, so to speak.
I've enjoyed your posts in the past couple of days.  

... There aren't very many visions in the Bible, now are there? - J.Fingas
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Italian cheeseheads
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:21:04
EID:4818 22438aa0
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32f4e8f1
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f664d0
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
David Worrell said to Richard Smith about Italian cheeseheads:

DW> 29 Jan 97 11:47, Richard Smith wrote to Judith Bandsma:
JB> WHY she needs her wheelchair. This was told to her by a
JB> person across the desk from her. LOOKING at her. And
JB> telling her she isn't handicapped.
RS> That's insufferable.  I wonder how that person feels
RS> about herself, having to tell someone that.
DW> They are a civil servant, and thus are not human.

That's entirely possible, though I tend to categorize civil
servants of this sort as being petty cowards.  I wouldn't be
able to do it, I think.  I hope.

DW>  ! Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)

Is there a cash bar around this place?

... Barnum was wrong ... it's more like every 30 sec.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  I do hope you are all ta
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:23:06
EID:fa77 22438ae0
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32f4e534
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f6654a
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Glen Todd said to Richard Smith about I do hope you are all ta:

GT> Heilsa, Richard Smith!

Bendigaid, Glen!

GT> A Lab, a Lab/Tervuren cross, a Tervuren, and a wolf/Akita/Husky
GT> hybrid here at Casa High Reaches.   You should see our feed bill,
GT> though.
RS> Well, I've got two boys approaching puberty . . . so I can
RS> imagine.  Wanna trade?  
GT> Add to the above four-footed list a boy, 16, a girl, 13, and a
GT> boy, 11.

I guess that's a `no,' huh?  


... All Scottish food is based on a dare.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Robert Curry
|Sub:  Smegma Staalin
|Date: 04 Feb 97  15:31:08
EID:ef27 22447be0
REPLY: 1:3603/210 29e52ee4
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f79c8c
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Robert Curry said to Richard Smith about Smegma Staalin:

js> Promise Keepers is organizing
RS> Shouldn't that be `are organizing' rather than `is
RS> organizing?'  Or is Jimson speaking Eubonics?  The failed
RS> English Major strikes again . . .
RC> No, that grammar is quite standard, taking "Promise Keepers"
RC> as a singular entity.

I can see the following:

The Promise Keepers Organization IS organizing etc.

Promise Keepers all over the country ARE organizing etc.

So I presume that I didn't have enough of the sentence to
know in which way it was meant.  I will bow to your
knowledge, though, since you supposedly saw the whole line.
But I will point out that it IS subject-sensitive and
dependent on POV.  Neither of my examples is incorrect.

RC> Will you next be informing me that "mathematics" is plural
RC> because it too ends in an 's'?

Why would I do that?  Does your last name stem from a noun
or a verb?  Mine stems from a verb.  And as long as we're
tossing out non-sequitors, I want to do my part.  

RC> Or how about the United States of America?

How about them?

Or

How about it?

  Depends on where your emphasis is, don't you think?


... Pi r^2 is Eubonics for `Hey, it's a cobbler!'
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Free Will
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:29:10
EID:8d22 22438ba0
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 7489cace
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f666b6
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Martin Goldberg said to Richard Smith about Free Will:

RS> You mean you don't buy into this rationalization after the
RS> fact in order to get certain conditions to fit reality?  
MG> One of my professors who was a world famous rheumatologist
MG> had a philosophy about science.  He said that if something
MG> was signifigant, it would jump up and hit you in the face.
MG> Rationalization is not needed.  Rationalization is needed
MG> for those with no facts.

I guess that's a no.  I suspected as much, anyway.  


... I vant to turn your pancakes!  -- Count Spatula
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  FUNDY SHUFFLE: Step 8
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:32:12
EID:be9c 22438c00
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 7489cdba
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f6676c
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Martin Goldberg said to Richard Smith about FUNDY SHUFFLE: Step 8:

RS> I think Ken needs Hooked on Phonics . . . anyone want to
RS> chip in to get it for him and Staalin so that they can
RS> get some remedial reading?
MG> Well, Ken Wino hasn't shown his fundy ass in here for
MG> months.

I figured as much.  Sad, isn't it, when a person has to turn
to OLD mail packets to get their HS fix . . .

MG> I guess he had to go to someother echo and tell
MG> them how he "kicked their asses in Holysmoke".

I just assumed that he was having another bout with his tape
backup . . .

MG> The lad needs some self resepct, after all.

I can't think of one place he'd get it, given what I know of
him.


... (Wiens on fairy beliefs):  Sure.  Do you have any reason to doubt him?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Sadism in the name of Go
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:33:14
EID:cacf 22438c20
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 7489d250
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f667aa
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Martin Goldberg said to Richard Smith about Sadism in the name of Go:

RS> emulates Swaggart too much for that . . . and doesn't have a
RS> job, so he can't afford a hooker.
MG> Hookers will do anything for money, but let Bro Jimmy sing
MG> to them and you're likely to have one recalcitrant whore.

Must be why Diane wants to keep him at home, rather than
subjecting the populace of Grand Rapids (which already has
its worries, believe me) to him . . .

Very conscientious of her, if you ask me.


... Hasn't happened yet, Dave. (the head part, that is)  -- Jimson Staalin
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Goodbye /3 (2)
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:34:16
EID:35f2 22438c40
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 749060e2
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f667e8
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Martin Goldberg said to Richard Smith about Goodbye /3 (2):

RS> I have a friend that has it AND Adrenal Cancer.  He's about
RS> thirty-five, and claims that he thinks he's got about ten
RS> years or less left . . .
MG> Is he certain it's lupus?  SLE is very rare in men.

He says he is.  His family seems to back up his story.


... At birth we woke to dream in this world between.  -- Kan'ami Kiyotsugu
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  ask and ye shall rece
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:36:18
EID:8c00 22438c80
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 40497656
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f66862
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Katherine Wintersnight said to Richard Smith about ask and ye shall rece:

RS> Two related bits about chocolate.  In another area there is a
RS> great debate going on about if chocolate is lethal for dogs
RS> in large doses.  If anyone is interested, I can bootleg some
RS> of the posts over here.  Also, I have somewhere a lovely
RS> Pagan chocolate ritual which, if I can find it, I may upload
RS> here.  Chocolate is its own reward, after all . . . 
KW> Is that the one with the chocolate chips, or the one that
KW> ends up with cocoa sprinkled all over the back yard?
RS> You know, I don't remember . . . so there's obviously TWO
RS> chocolate rituals now?  Gads, the stuff must be popular!
RS> I'll really have to look for it now . . . it's the one where
RS> one of the ritual officers is referred to as the Swiss Miss.
KW> There wasn't a 'Swiss Miss' in either of mine.  
KW> Omigoddess--false chocolate scum rituals are running around
KW> loose!

Worse, I've heard rumors of a Carob Ritual . . . 

KW> And then there is the VanderMint heresy. ;)

VanderMint?  Sure I vandermint!  Gimme!  


... Jolt Cola & chocolate-covered espresso beans: Breakfast of Neurotics.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Don Martin
|Sub:  What webs we weave.
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:42:20
EID:02d0 22438d40
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32f233a7
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f669cc
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Don Martin said to Richard Smith about What webs we weave.:

RS> It keeps us from crying, sometimes.  Who was it said: life is
RS> a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel?
DM> Horace Walpole, Fourth Earl of Oxford, in a letter to the
DM> Countess of Upper Ossory, 16 August, 1776, said that. Had 
DM> he written it to the Countess of _Lower_ Ossory, probably 
DM> nobody would remember it today.
RS> I guess we were fortunate then, eh?  
DM> Of course: many old things are the best (present company
DM> included, of course). And speaking of old, how long have 
DM> you been moving?

Actual time or subjective time?  We took about a week to
move across town, between other obligations.

DM> You are replying to fundies who shrieked their
DM> last "IS NOT!" in here _months_ ago.

I know.  I had to get my fix from old packets.  Plus, we
decided to move at just the same time as Northern California
was having unprecidented (read that: everyone forgot the
last time, six years ago) flooding, etc.  Not only was it a
nightmare to try to find rental vans, but there were other
things to contend with.  The phone line for the BBS was
postphoned until the end of the month, not with our
approval, because of emergency conditions, etc.

I'm only glad we moved because I plan on dying here.  

DM> May you be as happy in your new home as we are in ours.

Thank you, and may there be laughter and health in your home
as well . . .


... Took an hour to bury the cat. Wouldn't stop moving!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Sue Armstrong
|Sub:  Apocalypse Now
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:43:22
EID:cfdd 22438d60
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32f204be
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f66a0a
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Sue Armstrong said to Richard Smith about Apocalypse Now:

SA> Good cast, but I got left out again. :(
RS> I didn't have you in as Fundy Handler?  I should
RS> have . . . sorry about that . . . how about:
RS> Sue Armstrong . . . . . . . . . . . . . Fundy Wrangler
RS> (No Fundies were harmed during the production, but some of
RS> them should have been.)
SA> Much better.  I am appeased. :)

Good.  No need to bring in the Union, right?  


... Why experiment with animals when we have Rush Limbaugh?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Damien Wellman
|Sub:  Goodbye
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:45:24
EID:479e 22438da0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f66a84
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Damien Wellman said to Richard Smith about Goodbye:

DW> Well, there is that. Admittedly, I've skipped over his recent
DW> posts, tho... laughing that much hurts.
RS> Especially if you have angina, a weak bladder, or tend
RS> towards projectile vomiting . . . 
DW> Good thing I have none of the above, then.
RS> True.  They're especially bad if you have all three . . .
DW> I take it you have personal experience? 

No, just wishful thinking of someone else . . . 

RS> ... Beware of Quantum ducks (Quark!Quark!Quark!)
DW> X TLX v4.00 X + Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Skidmarks, Inc.
RS> I love it.
DW> I think it was the kindest of the "John Brawley" taglines. Heck, it
DW> actually wouldn't be a bad name for a BBS... Quantum Skidmarks, that
DW> is. It's wierd enough for my taste at least. :)

LOL . . . I can see that . . .


... PRO BOZO PUBLICO - Support your local clown
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub:  Websites Etc.
|Date: 03 Feb 97  17:50:26
EID:c597 22438e40
REPLY: 1:383/6293 32EC0A15
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f66bb2
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Darryl Gonzalez said to All about Websites Etc.:

dg> Hi everyone!

Hi Darryl!

dg> Just thought I'd invite you to visit my two Web pages:

Thank you.  I don't surf the net.

dg> The Hope Page==> a page where I share thoughts from
dg> the Bible, to point you towards a right relationship
dg> to God & encourage you along the way
dg> http://members.tripod.com/~DJGONZA/index.html

How special.

dg> The World of Darryl Gonzalez==> a page where I share
dg> information about me, the things I enjoy doing, etc.
dg> You'll find that while you may call me a "fundy", I'm
dg> not your average "fundy".  I also have some nice links
dg> there, particularly for those of you who may like (as I
dg> do) Star Trek and Dark Shadows.

I see that vanity publishing is reaching it's epitome in the
personal website . . .

dg> I also have some nice
dg> shots of George Strait and Amy Grant there.

Any nudies?  Of them both?  Together?

dg> I'm
dg> planning on installing a chat room on that page soon.
dg> http://members.tripod.com/~DJGONZA/djgworld.html

I'm itching to find a provider already.

dg> Anyway, I'll see you online.  God bless!

Which God?

dg> Christ's Love,

A dead fig tree.


... A yawn is a silent shout. -- G. K. Chesterton
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Bacteria & evolution (c)
|Date: 03 Feb 97  19:53:28
EID:75a2 22439ea0
REPLY: 1:3800/49 00188e16
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f68888
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
David Ragland said to David Worrell about Bacteria & evolution (c).:

dr> Stratomorphic intermediate species and organismal groups
dr> should be a common feature of the fossil record.  And
dr> examples of
DW> [snip]
dr> intermediate are consistent with progressive creation and
dr> global deluge theories.
DW> Which ICR tract did you plagiarise this from?
dr> Here goes,

I see that you don't answer David's question.  Where DID you
plagiarize it from?  Your sentence structure is very
different, odds are that YOU didn't write it . . .

dr>  This little waltz is all too familiar.  Shall you lead or I?

So you admit to just dancing around the truth?  Thank you.

dr> In the presence of those who know me not, I state my beliefs.

. . . and, apparently, make claims you can't substantiate.
Did you state that you believed such and such, or did you
just say that such and such was true?

dr> Those who are diametrically opposed say that I am ignorant
dr> of science.

Only because your appear to be.

dr> Fred Rice, to cite a recent example, scrapes up what he
dr> feels is esoteric terminology and challenges me to
dr> define it. :)

So you admit, by the use of `esoteric' that you don't know
what you're talking about?  I appreciate that.

dr> It is assumed that I _will_ waffle as I am just an
dr> ignorant fundy.

Nice of you to admit it.

dr> This must be true, right?  I mean, otherwise...I would
dr> not believe in such utter nonsense as intelligent
dr> design.

. . . of life, without evidence . . . yes, that's about it.

Or you would present a pile of shit.  Guess which one you
did?

dr> Now.  For those who still know little to nothing of me
dr> or what I have studied,

But know implicitly of you through your postings.

dr> I state why I believe as I do.

And attempt to sway opinion in as obscure a manner as you
know how, yes.

dr> In trying to get through, I speak in the vernacular that
dr> I am accused of knowing nothing of.

Too bad you didn't have time to study the language, though.

dr> It is _then_ that
dr> the "virtual" trap is sprung.  Or so the atheists think.
dr> -==-  Snap!  Oh my! That does hurt, says I!  It
dr> would appear that I am caught.  Yes.  I have been
dr> exposed by this brilliant atheist!  He has caught me
dr> researching data and then giving my interpretation of
dr> what it means with regards to the subject of design.
dr> However, he inverts this to mean "data piracy" with a
dr> mere accusation.  What do you suggest? Shall I chew off
dr> my foot and hop away?  I am busted, right?  I mean,
dr> there is simply no way a stupid fundy like me could
dr> possibly understand anything that I posted.  I much have
dr> sat an copied it word for word from something Gish
dr> wrote, right? Tell ya what...  Let's just forget you
dr> wasted our mutual time this mordant accusation and you
dr> assume whatever you want.  This way we can move to the
dr> next square.

Thank you for admitting that you plagiarized it, both with
this touching plea for sympathy, and by many protestations.
Your actions belie your words.

dr> "What is the next square," you ask? Well,
dr> that would be where you just respond to the information,

Been there, done that . . . as you know by now.  Who's words
were you stealing?

dr> Sir. Yes.  Let's do something silly why don't we?  Let's
dr> exchange our personal thoughts on what science has
dr> uncovered.

Sorry, still waiting for your source on this.  Once can't
just assume something is correct and blithely ignore the
fact that sources need to be cited, if one wishes to proceed
in a scientific manner here.

dr> Specifically, can you begin to refute what
dr> it written?  It's not looking that way thus far.

Been there and done that as well.

dr> Otherwise your refutation would have been blasted back
dr> at me.

Still trying to obscure the issue?  How nice.  Get back to
me when you'll admit who you lifted it from.

dr> You would have pounded your keyboard to
dr> smithereens punching holes in what I wrote.

. . . yadda yadda yadda . . . many outraged cries of IS NOT
. . .

dr> Then you
dr> and Fred and Sally and countless others would high five
dr> it up for about a week.

. . . and still more moaning and groaning . . .

dr> Another fundy trophy head would
dr> rest on your monitor.

. . . mutter . . . froth . . . plea . . . grumble . . .

dr> Instead, you accuse me of plagiarism... 

Have you ever considered committing suicide with
decongestants and aspirin?  I've known at least one other
clown to prefer such . . .


... You can do better than that, David. (You CAN, can't you?)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 03 Feb 97  20:07:30
EID:61be 2243a0e0
REPLY: 1:3800/49 000982e1
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f68bd2
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
David Ragland said to Martin Goldberg about J.J. needs to be Hitt:

MG> It's wonderful that you believe this nonsense.  do you have
MG> any evidence for it?

dr> Why, yes.

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> As a matter of fact, I do. ;)

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> Look to your own evidence first though, ok?

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> Specifically, look at why _you_ believe God exists
dr> and let's see how it compares to mine.

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> Don't bother telling me you _don't_ believe.

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> I won't believe you.

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> I don't believe "anyone" who says this.

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> I believe they are just being rebellious.

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> Peace,

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

dr> David Ragland

Don't bother telling me this, I won't believe you or anyone
who professes it.  -- David Ragland Credo  

I feel better now.  Why didn't *I* ever think of such a
disingenuous way of not answering questions that I can't
answer?  Thanx, David!  This is better than .


... Arguing fact w/David's like debating chili recipes w/a crayfish.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 03 Feb 97  20:17:32
EID:a33c 2243a220
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32f4bcad
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f68e2c
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
David Worrell said to Ken Young about Cracker Barrel boycott:

ky> Accept it or not, Christianity is about love..
RC> So keep the good parts, but dispose of the silly
RC> superstitions!
ky> You must know of a Bible I don't, because I cannot
ky> think of any..
DW> That bit about dead me walking would do for a start.

Dead you?  How Freudian . . . 


... Anything that kills you makes you . . . well, dead.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Andrew Masten
|Sub:  Heat [1/2] A
|Date: 04 Feb 97  15:43:34
EID:2c76 22447d60
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 32f55859
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f79f76
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Andrew Masten said to Rod Swift about Heat [1/2]:

am> Without belaboring the point, I concede that Laurie, in
am> what is evidently misguided enthusiasm, has gone over
am> the line. Its too bad, because I think creationism can
am> stand on its own merits without out resorting to
am> unsavory tactics in its defense.
RS> Oh really?  Care to provide some of the evidence that 
RS> supports that theory?
RS> In fact, we've never had a Christian provide a point-by-point
RS> summary of the theory with a list of major evidentiary points,
RS> yet.  Care to do that for us?

AM> Who's us Rod? Do you have a fan club?

He certainly does, as well as colleagues, etc., here . . .
why, are you writing a book?

am> I have been posting on this board for over a year and
am> have on several occasions provided a summary as well as
am> evidentiary points. However I would be happy to
am> reiterate if, in rebuttal, you would be willing to
am> summarize and provide evidentiary points for your
am> conclusion that mechanistic forces alone can account for
am> the appearence of the universe and the arrival of man.

You are aware that the two are not necessarily synonymous,
aren't you?  What about what else he asked for: evidence,
AND a summary of the theory behind it?

am> 1. Scientists think the universe started from a
am> explosion of a singularity in an event known as the big
am> bang. At the moment of this big bang time and the laws
am> of physics came into existence.

The then term `moment' is inaccurate, isn't it?

am> In our entire existence
am> no one knows of an uncaused event.

Untrue.  It happens all the time around here.  Let something
get broken in the hallway, and neither son did it, nor do
either of them know anything about it.  Ergo, an uncaused
event.  

Does this mean that an uncaused even never happened?  No.
According to what I read of Mark Kimes' comments here,
causation may in this case be a null argument: for there to
have been a cause, it would have had to happen BEFORE the
Big Bang in time . . . yet time did not start until the Big
Bang.  Have you chatted with Mark Kimes about this?

am> Since time or the
am> laws of physics did not come into existence until after
am> the big bang

Thereby reiterating that the term `moment' in regards to the
Big Bang is a misnomer at the very least.

am> whatever or who ever caused the big bang
am> must have been out of the realm of time and physics.

No, just must not have been subject to the laws of same.
Do you have any evidence that the Big Bang didn't cause
itself, such as is popular in the oscillating universe
theory, etc.?

am> Moreover, no known laws of physics could create the big
am> bang since they were created by the big bang.

So?

am> 2. There are at least 25 known constants in the universe
am> necessary for life as we know it

There's the operative wording: AS WE KNOW IT.  BTW, where
did you originally get this list . . . I'd like to go and do
some supplimental reading by the author of it.

am> and some for any life
am> at all. Moreover, there are an infinite amount of
am> permutations the universe could have taken to the
am> exclusion of any one being around to ponder how we got
am> here.

Again, so?

am> Evidence for fine tuning of universe.

Who said anything about tuning the universe?  Hell, finding
batteries for it is problem enough alone . . .

am> 1. Strong nuclear force constant If larger; no hydrogen;
am> nuclei essential for life would be unstable If smaller;
am> no elements other than hydrogen

Based on what?  And who says that it isn't possible for life
to have different nuclei?

am> 2. Weak nuclear force constant If larger; too much
am> hydrogen converted to helium in big bang,

Excuse me, but if hydrogen and helium don't exist prior to
or up to the point of the Big Bang, how could hydrogen be
transmuted into helium at that point?  This is disingenuous.

am> hence too much
am> heavy element material made by star burning ;

What stars?  I thought nothing existed prior to the point of
the Big Bang?  And certainly, stars formed much later, yet
you imply here that stars were there from the very point of
the Bang.

am> no
am> expulsion of heavy elements from stars if smaller; too

Again, what stars?

am> little helium produced from big bang, hence too little
am> heavy element material made by star burning; no
am> expulsion of heavy elements from stars

Again, what stars . . . or are you speaking of MUCH later?

am> 3. Gravitational force constant if larger;

You mean gravity isn't a constant now?

am> stars would
am> be too hot and would burn up quicky and unevenly if
am> smaller; stars would remain so cool that nuclear fusion
am> would never ignite, hence no heavy element production

Excuse me, but if they never ignite, they can't be called
stars.  Consider the example of Jupiter.

am> 4. Electromagnetic force constant if larger;
am> insufficient chemical bonding; elements more massive
am> than boron would be too unstable for fussion if smaller
am> insufficient chemical bonding

Based on what?

am> 5. Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to
am> gravitational force constant if larger; no stars less
am> than 1.4 solar masses hence short and uneven stellar
am> burning if smaller; no stars more than 0.8 solar masses,
am> hence no heavy element production

Yet aren't there stars both bigger and smaller, by far, than
Sol?

am> 6. Ratio of electron to protron mass if larger;

`protron?'

am> insufficient chemical bonding if smaller; insufficient
am> chemical bonding
am> 7. Ratio of protron to number of electrons if larger;

`protron?'  Andrew, there is no such a thing as a protron,
according to my dictionary.

am> electromagnetism would have dominated gravity,
am> preventing galaxy star and planet formation if smaller;
am> same result
am> 8. Expansion rate of universe if larger; no galaxy
am> formation if smaller; universe would collaspe prior to
am> star formation
am> 9. Entropy level of universe if larger; no star
am> condensation within the protogalaxies if smaller; no
am> protogalaxy formation

How does entropy affect the formation of galaxies?

am> 10. Mass density of universe if larger; too much
am> deuterium from big bang hence stars burn too rapidly if
am> smaller; insufficient helium from big bang
am> 11. Velocity of light if larger; stars would be too
am> luminous

Why would that be a problem?  BTW, how do you extrapolate
that if photons traveled faster, they'd be BRIGHTER?  Have
you any evidence for this _assumption_?

am> if smaller; stars would not be luminous enough

LOL . . . so if the photons travel slowly, they aren't as
bright?  So a photon that is stopped completely is
absolutely invisible?  This is silliness, isn't it Andrew?

am> 12. Age of universe if older; no solar type stars in
am> stable burning phase in the right part of the galaxy if
am> younger; solar stars in stable burning phase would not
am> yet have formed

Now THIS is an arbitrary thing.  After all, the universe
was, at one time, younger, and will be in the future, older.
So, following your reasoning here, no life existed prior to
right now, and will now exist after right now?  THAT is more
silliness, Andrew.

am> 13. Initial uniformity of radiation if smoother; stars,
am> star clusters and galaxies would not have formed if
am> coarser; universe would be mostly black holes and empty
am> space

So if some places are more radioactive than others, the
universe would be mostly black holes, etc.?  Yet isn't this
true: that there are places in the universe that are more
radioactive and places that are less?  Yet where are the
black holes?

am> 14. Fine structure constant( a number used to describe
am> the fine structure splitting of spectral lines) if
am> larger; no stars more than 0.7 solar masses if smaller;
am> no stars less than 1.8 solar masses

See my response to number five, above.

am> 15. Average distance between stars if larger; heavy
am> element density to thin for rocky planets to form

Excuse me?

am> if
am> smaller; planetary orbits would become to destabilized

Or planets might not form at all.  So?  I've noticed that
you seem to be extrapolating all of these as constants
across the entire universe, though that is a disingenous way
of looking at it.  In some places, the concentration of
stars is very heavy, in others very sparse.

am> 16. Decay rate of proton if greater; life would be
am> exterminated by the release of radiation if smaller;
am> insufficent matter in the universe for life

Protons decay?  My dictionary says that they are stable.
Are you saying that life could not form that would allow for
a more intense background radiation level?  Not all life is
affected by radiation in the same way, Andrew.  And you're
getting the cart before the horse: if the radiation was too
intense for ANY life, no life would form, not be killed off.
BTW, what is the dividing line, vis a vis matter, on having
enough to have life and not having enough to have life?

am> 17. C to O nuclear energy level ratio if larger;
am> insufficient oxygen

For LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.

am> if smaller insufficient carbon

For LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.

am> 18. Ground state energy level for HE if larger;
am> insufficient carbon and oxygen if samller; same result

For LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.

am> 19. Decay rate of BE if slower; heavy element fusion
am> would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars

Actually, if the rate was slower from the Big Bang on, that
would put the rate as slower BEFORE the stars had formed.
This is disingenous again, Andrew.

am> if faster; no element production beyond beryllium, hence
am> no life chemistry possible

For LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.

am> 20.  Mass excess of nuetron over the proton if greater;
am> neutron decay would leave too few neutrons to form the
am> heavy elements esential for life if smaller; proton
am> decay would cause all stars to rapidly collaspe into
am> nuetron stars or black holes

Again, if this constant was in effect from the Big Bang
onward, the stars wouldn't have formed at all, would they?
Stars WERE formed later, right?

am> 21. Intial excess of nucleons over antinucleons if
am> greater; too much radiation for planets to form

How does radiation affect planetary formation?

am> if
am> smaller; not enough matter for galaxies or stars to form

So?  Maybe there'd be just one galaxy then, etc.



... The only constant in the universe is stupidity.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Andrew Masten
|Sub:  Heat [1/2] B
|Date: 04 Feb 97  17:14:20
EID:2d36 224489c0
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 32f55859
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f7b4bc
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Andrew Masten said to Rod Swift about Heat [1/2]:

< . . . continued from previous post>

am> 22. Polarity of water molecule if greater; heat of
am> fusion and vaporization would be too great for life to
am> exist

Where, exactly, is water involved with fusion in nature?

am> if smaller; heat of fusion and vaporization would
am> be too small for life's existance;

Where, exactly, is water involved with fusion in nature?

am> liquid water would
am> become too inferior a solvent for life chemistry to
am> proceed;

Why?  And who says that H2O is the only possible choice for
this?  Again, this only applies to LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.

am> ice would not float, leading to a runaway
am> freeze-up

Any evidence (say from experiments, etc.) to back this up?

am> 23. Supernova eruptions if too close; radiation would
am> exterminate life on planet if too far; not enough heavy
am> element ashes to form rocky planets

Planets are _only_ formed AFTER supernovae?  LOL . . .

am> if too infrequent
am> same result if too frequent life on planet would be
am> exterminated if too soon; not enough heavy ashes for
am> rocky planets to form if too late; life would be
am> exterminated by radiation

Planets are _only_ formed AFTER supernovae?  LOL . . .

Life is a crap shoot, Andrew.  So, tell me, how would all
these supernovae manage to happen all together at the same
time?

am> 24. White dwarf binaries if too few; insufficient
am> flourine produced for life chemistry to proceed

For LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.

am> if too
am> many; disruption of planetary orbits from stellar
am> density; life on planet would be exterminated if too
am> soon; not enough heavy elements made for efficient
am> fluorine production if too late; flourine made to late
am> for incorporation into protoplanet

So?

am> 25. Ratio of mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter if
am> smaller;

What is exotic matter, as opposed to ordinary matter?  This
looks like a strawman to me . . .

am> galaxies would not have formed if larger;
am> universe would have collasped before solar-type star
am> could form

Assuming for the sake of argument that what you've outlined
above is true (and I have my doubts about some of it, to be
sure), so what?

Statistically, (as you would know if you ever took
statisitics) this means the universe still could have
happened as we've outlined, by the Big Bang.  The odds are
not so large as to rule it out, and everyone knows that
every opportunity has just as much a chance of succeeding as
any other.  Who knows how many Big Bangs there have been,
how many failures?

am> Before I draw any conclusions, let me quote a few
am> scientists thoughts.

Got any credentials for them, Andrew?

am> Paul Davies " The laws of physics seem themselves to be
am> a product of exceedingly ingenious design"

SEEM.  In other words, according to how Paul sees them, they
SEEM that way.  That doesn't mean that they ARE that way.

am> George Greenstein (scientist, author)

Bonafides, please.

am> expressed these
am> thoughts," As we survey all the evidence, the thought
am> insistantly arises that some supernatural agency-or
am> rather, Agency-must be involved. Is it possible that
am> suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon
am> scientific proof of the existance of a supreme being?

Looks like wish-fulfillment to me, Andrew.  His _opinion_
doesn't make it scientific FACT.  Anyone who thinks so is
delusional.

am> Was it God who so providentially crafted the cosmos for
am> our benefit?" ( From The Symbiotic Universe)

Not without any evidence of said Deity.

am> There are at least another 33 conditions that must be
am> satisfied for a planet like ours to develop and ours is
am> the only known planet with life.

Provisionally.  So far we don't know of a lot of other
planets as well as we know of ours.  AND, we have excellent
evidence that life was on Mars as well.  Having said all of
that, so what?  What is your point?

am> Then we are faced with
am> the daunting task of getting atoms to ultimately assmble
am> themselves into humans.

Misnomer.

am> In summation, I think were here as a result of design.

You're allowed your opinion.  That doesn't make it true,
though.  As Rod said, got any evidence?


... Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is ETERNAL.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Jan Deboer
|Sub:  Partial Virgin a little
|Date: 04 Feb 97  09:17:38
EID:2e34 22444a20
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f293ca
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f74502
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Jan Deboer said to Al Schroeder about Partial Virgin a little p:

as> The important thing to a Christian is usually the Resurrection,
as> more than say, Christmas.
JD> So we're back-pedalling on the virgin birth [because it looks too
JD> absurd for the semi-educated to swallow anymore?] and focussing our
JD> resources on the rez-erection?

Only until people have forgotten about it, then we can claim
it as a victory . . . };)


... Yes, to some people, I AM patronizing. I have REASON to be.A.Schroeder
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Lee Woofenden
|Sub:  It's a boy!
|Date: 04 Feb 97  09:47:40
EID:fb13 22444de0
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 d613aa43
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f74c0c
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96

LW> My wife and I have a new baby boy, born Thursday, January 30. 
LW> Mother and baby are fine. (We also have a 7 year old daughter 
LW> and an 18 month old son).

They've found what it is in the air that causes this now,
Lee.  FYI.  

... Hell, cars obviously "go against God's design" - he gave us legs. -
DW
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   All
|Sub:  Adjustments . . .
|Date: 04 Feb 97  10:00:42
EID:f763 22445000
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f74f1a
I just wanted to alert everyone that I am having trouble
with the BBS here and with one of my providers.  What this
means is that I am losing the occassional packet, so if I
don't respond to your message to me, please resend it or
call it to my attention.  I am also unable to receive any
mail through my internet/Fido gateway, so please save all
messages until such time as I can get it to actually
function again.  I may end up moving the BBS to my 486,
things have gone so far awry.  Just wanted to let you folks
know . . .

-- Richard

... Truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  don't know
|Date: 04 Feb 97  10:21:44
EID:17fe 224452a0
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32f49926
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f75408
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dan Ceppa said to Al Schroeder about don't know:

as> Just like Bill Clinton, Cindy Crawford, or Bill Gates.
as> Or any old real person you might know.
RC> Except that Yahweh has far more in common with Santa Claus
RC> than with real people.
as> Saint Nicholas wasn't a real person?
DC> When was the last time he came down your chimney, Al?

I heard he got arrested for doing such things . . . 


... "Nothing comes between me and my Calvin."  -- A Protestant
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  Superstion
|Date: 04 Feb 97  15:38:46
EID:a46e 22447cc0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f79e56
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Roger Hunter said to Al Schroeder about SUPERSTION:

-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
as> with Herod having the ear of Claudius? (Didja know
as> they were buddies before Claudius became Emperor?)
RH> Are you sure it was Claudius?
as> According to Robert Graves it was. But Graves might
as> have been wrong.
RH> I shouldn't argue the point, as all I know came from "I, 
RH> Claudius" on TV. But I do think Herod was buddies with 
RH> either Caligula or the one just before him.

According to my Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary
(p. 1140), Herod (the great Roman king of Judea) lived from
73 to 4 BCE, and was in office from 37 to 4 BCE.

According to my Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary
(p. 1140), Herod Antipas (Roman tetrarch of Galilee) lived
from 4 BCE to 39 CE.

Depending on the birth and death dates, the two Herods may
not have ever met.

Tiberius Claudius Drusus (the Claudius of `I, Claudius') was
born at Lugdunum in 10 BCE and died on October 13th, 54 CE,
according to my copy of Searby's Roman Coins And Their
Values, by David R. Sear, page 58.

I had assumed that Al meant Herod the King, rather than
Herod Antipas, and thought that was clear from his usage.

If so, then there is a clear problem.  Herod could have
known Claudius until he was about age six.  Hardly any
political connection there.  Of course, he could have known
him and was just playing that timeless adult-child game of
"who's got your ear?  I'VE got your ear!" . . . I've played
it with my kids myself.  It works better with noses.

However, it would appear that Al has confused Herod Antipas
with Herod.  I doubt that Robert Graves made the mistake.
It will be interesting to see if Al admits that he made the
error.


... If God made everything, then he must have made mistakes.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  Alternative Or Straw
|Date: 04 Feb 97  11:39:48
EID:a824 22445ce0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f76654
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Roger Hunter said to Dan Ceppa about ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW:

-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
DC> What would you do if your god demanded that you do that rape?
as> Refuse without a second's thought, even if it meant damnation.
DC> What would you do if your daughter was the victim and someone
DC> that could have prevented it didn't help?  
RH> You know, if we keep hammering Al with these questions designed
RH> to point out the inconsistencies in his faith, something is going
RH> to break.

You think so?  

RH> I suspect it will be his willingness to post here.

Or he'll just twit a few folks.


... You can never have too much infinity.                  -- Al Schroeder
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  Freedom And Life
|Date: 04 Feb 97  11:41:50
EID:4a6e 22445d20
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f766ce
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Roger Hunter said to Robert Curry about FREEDOM AND LIFE:

-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> That way lies madness, Al.
RC> Or at least religious delusion. His path of choice.
RH> And the difference is.....?

With madness, you have the chance to get institutionalized,
with constant care, three square meals a day, snacks, lots
of recreational time, and major drugs.

With the other, you just talk to things that aren't there.


... Person + delusion = psychosis. People + delusion = religion.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  Call Jim NOW!
|Date: 04 Feb 97  15:51:52
EID:384f 22447e60
REPLY: 1:102/735.0 2242538e
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f7a168
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Mark Kimes said to Jan Deboer about Call Jim NOW!:

JdB> Jesus HAS been in town, though. Police coaxed a naked
JdB> man down from a TV antenna on a Simcoe street north
JdB> building a couple of years ago. He reeked of
JdB> consecrated grape juice, and identified himself as
JdB> Jesus Christ. Never did hear what became of him,
JdB> probably raptured out of the police car.
MK> Are you _sure_ the fundies didn't get ahold of him and
MK> discreetly crucify him in a seldom visited spot?

Yeah, it WOULD be a little embarassing for a supposedly
immortal risen-from-the-dead savior to suddenly show up,
nude and drunk out of his mind.  It would have to be hushed
up immediately.

Reminds me of the saying: If you see the Buddha on the road,
kill him.

Poor guy.  They could at least have put Jesus in detox.


... Abstain from wine, women, and song; mostly song
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Call Jim NOW!
|Date: 04 Feb 97  16:07:54
EID:8424 224480e0
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 749623c0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f7a52a
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Martin Goldberg said to Jan Deboer about Call Jim NOW!:

Jd> from a TV antenna on a Simcoe street north building a couple 
Jd> of years ago. He reeked of consecrated grape juice, and 
Jd> identified himself as Jesus Christ. Never did hear what 
Jd> became of him, probably raptured out of the police car.
MG> Would you believe it.  Jesus drove about 80 mph down a
MG> local street here and took about about 6 cars.  Then he ran
MG> from the scene, screaming his name to passers by and was
MG> run over at the next intersection.
MG> He sure gets around, doesn't he?

And, like a damn Terminator, won't stay dead, apparently . . .

I wonder if he has a certain alkaline battery stuck up his
ass . . .

... Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.  -- Napoleon
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  ...
|Date: 04 Feb 97  16:51:56
EID:6525 22448660
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 749faa84
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f7af7c
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Martin Goldberg said to Al Schroeder about ...:

MK> Obviously an infinite mind cannot exist, else it would be
MK> quite apparent right here where I'm sitting.  Hint:  it's
MK> not.  You're simply playing "let's pretend" again, Al, and
MK> making no sense.  As usual.
as> LOL!!! By that logic, a larger thing we're a part of...like
as> the metagalactic cluster we're a part of...would be
as> apparant right from where  you're sitting.
MG> He did not say "larger".  He explicitly said "infinite".  
MG> There is a huge  difference.  Comparing infinity to the 
MG> metagalactic cluster is like comparing a pea to infinity.
MG> You have saddled your god with humanity yet again.

I couldn't believe that Al was so far advanced into
fundieism that he couldn't tell the difference between
something infinite, and something larger.

I hate to see dumbing-down happen to people.


... Yes, to some people, I AM patronizing. I have REASON to be.A.Schroeder
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Of threats of Hell...
|Date: 04 Feb 97  19:27:40
EID:1b73 22449b60
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 2f7d4030
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 749fbda0
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Martin Goldberg said to Al Schroeder about Of threats of Hell...:

MG> Do you need to look at every corner of the universe to see
MG> if there ian existant pink hippo?
as> No; but if one categorically says that on no planet of the
as> universe there  aren't pink hippos, one can at least inquire
as> what makes them so sure.
MG> So since we know that thunder is not caused by little men
MG> playing ninepins we need to look through the universe to 
MG> insure that thunder is never caused int hat manner?

Actually, reread what Al said.  His use of the double
negative indicates that he's saying that there ARE pink
hippos.

And I bet you thought that Al wasn't a believer.

... Necrohippoflagellationophilia:  The love of beating a dead horse. ___
Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Paul Halyung
|Sub:  Eckankar - ???
|Date: 01 Feb 97  11:27:00
EID:8bd1 22415b60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2b804
* On 19-01-97 at 13:05, PAUL HALYUNG wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Eckankar - ???" in echo Holysmoke:

PH> What is Eckankar?

PH> I had a convo with a rather wierd woman yesterday who
PH> talked about "Light and Sound" and reincarnations, and
PH> karma - the biggest thing was that MURDER was a positive
PH> thing, in that you expanded your circle of experiences in
PH> THIS LIFE and were therefore wiser in the next.

PH> Egads!  Is this another cult?  I have never heard of these
PH> crispy critters before.

Yes, it is.  The Internet has more about these loons.  They're
nearly as bad as Scientology, but less organised :)

Rod "...ptwang" Swift

* OLX 2.1 TD * Was that my hard drive, or are you torturing a cat?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Robert Curry
|Sub:  babbling Al
|Date: 01 Feb 97  11:30:02
EID:bfbd 22415bc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2b8ba
* On 19-01-97 at 23:54, ROBERT CURRY wrote to CURTIS JOHNSON,
on the topic of "babbling Al" in echo Holysmoke:

RC> I think he has become so accustomed to believing his own bullshit
RC> that when he completely distorts the truth, it "feels like" reality
RC> to him.

RC> BTW, this topic arose on IRC recently.

RC> Here's an amusing selection from my #holysmoke log file:

RC>  I just thought it funny you saying Curtis would no longer
RC>         post to me...when in that same packet, he DID.
RC>  When did I say he wouldn't post to you? I said -- correctly
--
RC>         that he was disgusted and alienated by you.
RC>  Curry: are you confused, Curry? You accused me of being
RC>         proud of alienating him...well, if he is so alientated, he
RC>         wasn't alienated enough not to post to me.
RC>  Al, you are fixated on something I never said. I never
RC>         mentioned him "not posting to you"
RC>  yea...alienated people NEVER interact, curry....because
RC>         if they DID it would be war, and we don't war with aliens!

[cue X-Files music]

Mulder: I can't give up the search for the truth, Scully.
Scully: Mulder, the truth is out there.... But so are lies.

Rod "...all that talk about aliens has my alien body thetans on the
move.  Quick, call a scientologist" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Diplomacy: The patriotic art of lying for one's country

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  freedom to blame
|Date: 01 Feb 97  11:37:04
EID:2cd4 22415ca0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2ba60
* On 18-01-97 at 10:29, AL SCHROEDER wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
on the topic of "freedom to blame" in echo Holysmoke:

AS>  You seem to be accusing Jesus of raping little girls.

Yes you are quite right.  This is an erroneous statement.

Jesus is an equal-opportunity child abuser.  His presence
terrorises and abuses the mind of boys and girls alike.

Rod "...because mental abuse is child abuse too" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 01 Feb 97  11:40:06
EID:7f22 22415d00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2bb16
* On 20-01-97 at 14:32, AL SCHROEDER wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG,
on the topic of "Bacteria and Evolution." in echo Holysmoke:

AS>  Yeah. Also the whole point of prayer is that we are dealing and contacting
AS>  with an entity, who may or may not exist. Until we know anything of
the
AS>  psychology of that entity (I might believe the Bible, but that doesn't
AS>  mean I'm foolish enough to presuppose the character of Jehovah for
the
AS>  sake of the experiment...that would be tossing my own bias into there)
we
AS>  can't say if He would respond or not to such.

Bull shit.  If you pray as the bible suggests, especially if more
than one of you petitions the deity-construct of the bible, your
prayers are promised to be completely answered.

No ifs, ands, or buts.  Unconditional.

This, I also note, is an adequate test to see if such
deity-constructs actually exist.

Rod "...try it, Al.  You've got some ideas for prayers that
require a miraculous intervention from your God... Try out your
God and see if he is there." Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Politics: Poly=many, Ticks=blood-sucking parasites

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Bill Wolff: silly guy!
|Date: 01 Feb 97  11:42:08
EID:3e69 22415d40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2bb90
* On 19-01-97 at 14:19, DAN CEPPA wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG,
on the topic of "Bill Wolff: silly guy!" in echo Holysmoke:

DC>  MG> Billy is one amazing guy.  When present evidence of his lies, he
DC>  MG> ignores them and goes on to tell us that he has been a big, bad,
DC>  MG> atheist all along and that we had him all wrong.  He's been busted
so
DC>  MG> many times in the past few months that he looks like Madonna's
pussy.

DC> Jesus fucking christ, Marty!  I'm reading this before breakfast.
DC> That's so disgusting...but so aptly stated!

Would 'Gutted Ewok' be a better euphemism next time?

Rod "...I'm gay, but not ignorant" Swift :) :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus Christ Super Fraud.  The Musical!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Scientific facts (c)1.
|Date: 01 Feb 97  11:47:10
EID:17cf 22415de0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2bcbe
* On 20-01-97 at 00:14, DAVE HAMILTON wrote to LAURIE APPLETON,
on the topic of "Scientific facts (c)1." in echo Holysmoke:

DH> BTW, did you see my post in EVOLUTION to Karen Davis congratulating
DH> her on her victory? Guess you're about finished there now, eh? Tough
DH> luck. Hell of a fight you put up, but she sure debunked all your
DH> arguments fair and square. Guess that shows what happens when
DH> creationists attempt debate in the 90's huh? And why those writers
DH> you fellate (er, cite) are smart enough to stay away from online
DH> debates. Oh, well.

Has anyone saved this thread?  I'd love a copy for my Appleton
Debunking File.

Rod "...thanks" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  God: Biggest Abortionist
|Date: 01 Feb 97  11:50:12
EID:7c98 22415e40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2bd74
* On 19-01-97 at 20:59, ED MILLS wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "God: Biggest Abortionist" in echo Holysmoke:

EM>  RS> Yes, isn't it.  Every fertilised egg that does not gain uterine
EM>  RS> wall implantation, and hence is aborted, is the fault of your
EM>  RS> God.

EM>  JS> Fault of sinful man and his 'science'.

EM>     I was unaware that human reproduction was designed and implemented
EM>     by human science.

Hilarious, isn't it?

EM>     But how did we reproduce before we had scientists, then?

Well, obviously asexually :)

Rod "...that's a *BUDDING* new idea on reproduction" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Velcronomicon: A magick book that sticks with you

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 01 Feb 97  12:18:14
EID:0844 22416240
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2c406
* On 20-01-97 at 20:22, JONATHAN FINGAS wrote to GLEN TODD,
on the topic of "Hypocritical people" in echo Holysmoke:

JF>  GT> Evidence of this, please?    And even if true, why
JF>  GT> would an avatar or incarnation of the god of Abraham be
JF>  GT> of any interest whatsoever to us non-Abrahamics?

JF>   It's called THE BIBLE.  You certainly don't have any
JF> proof that Jesus DIDN'T turn water into wine, feed 5000
JF> with a lone basket of food, or walk on water.

Well, I can trump you!  My DIARY says that INVISIBLE PINK
UNICORNS EXIST!  You certainly don't have any proof that there
invisible pink unicorns do NOT exist.  Therefore IPUs exist.

Rod "...you're a buffoon" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * I ain't broke, but I'm badly bent

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub:  Am I getting through?
|Date: 01 Feb 97  12:50:16
EID:e3ec 22416640
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2cb88
* On 18-01-97 at 16:07, LYNDA BUSTILLOZ wrote to JIM STEINGROBE,
on the topic of "Am I getting through?" in echo Holysmoke:

LB> All and Jim were killing time yakking about Am I getting through?:

LB>  JS> WEll, I was able to log onto this bbs via the internet. Now I
LB>  JS> just have to see if this works and all. I hope to be a blessing
to all
LB>  JS> of you out there since I know many of you could use a blessing.
:)
LB>  JS> See ya all around hopefully.

LB> (VBG)
LB> Hello, Steiny.....
LB> Welcome to Hell.

I hear its paved with good intentions -- of vanquished
self-determined-good-willed Christians :)

Rod "...praise Jesus, and follow the yellow brick road" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Paranoia is *total* awareness!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub:  Ask and ye shall receive
|Date: 01 Feb 97  12:52:18
EID:5f69 22416680
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2cc02
* On 20-01-97 at 15:10, LYNDA BUSTILLOZ wrote to AL SCHROEDER,
on the topic of "Ask and ye shall receive" in echo Holysmoke:

[Many many scriptural references to the answering of prayer in
the Christian religious-construct:]

LB>One more bit, from 1 John. I figure you should accept his word, since
he was,
LB>you say, the only gospel writer we can be pretty sure was WITH Jesus
and that
LB>the later letters imparted to him are probably penned by the same dude:

LB>"Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before
God
LB>and RECIEVE FROM HIM ANYTHING WE ASK, because we obey his commands and
do
LB>what pleases him.  And this is his command: to BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF
HIS SON
LB>Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."
LB>1 John 3:21

LB> Is that enough looking at how it is applied throughout the rest of the
text
LB> for you, Al?

LB> Question repeated, for the thousandth time, with the above kept in mind:

LB> Why would God ignore the pleas for help from a rape victim begging him
with
LB> her whole heart?

Because, quite simply, the Christian deity-construct does not
exist, Lynda, or the Christian deity-construct is an evil
deceptor... :)

However, I'm sure I don't need to tell something to you that you
already know :)

Rod "...but Al needs to know" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub:  Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Feb 97  12:57:20
EID:e022 22416720
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2cd30
* On 17-01-97 at 20:59, LYNDA BUSTILLOZ wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Our Daily Bread" in echo Holysmoke:

LB> Rod and George were killing time yakking about Our Daily Bread:

LB>  GM> gmooth@sprynet.com

LB> oooohhh! An email address!!!!

Yes, I'm getting orgasmic over that :)

Rod "...woowoo! I could send all sorts of stuff :) :)" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Velcronomicon: A magick book that sticks with you

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patriot
|Sub:  Zulu harvest festival
|Date: 01 Feb 97  12:59:22
EID:9b2e 22416760
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2cdaa
* On 19-01-97 at 03:52, PATRIOT wrote to GLEN TODD,
on the topic of "Zulu harvest festival" in echo Holysmoke:

PA> FR> ~*~  "He'd ask me if I'd ever let anyone screw my
PA> FR> daughter when she was
PA> FR>      that young, and I said, 'No, She's only nine
PA> FR> years old.' He asked me
PA> FR>      if she started developing [breasts] or if she had any hair
down
PA> FR>      there. I said 'Nooo...' he even asked me if
PA> FR> pussy was real tight or
PA> FR>      not... sometimes he used the word cunt... 'I can picture my
cock
PA> FR>      going in and out of a pussy like that,' he said... I didn't
know
PA> FR>      what to say. I though, 'This man's got to be sick."
PA> FR>                       -- Debra Murphree detailing Jimmy Swaggart's
PA> FR>                          interest in her 9 year old daughter.
PA> FR>                          (Penthouse magazine, July 1988)

PA>  GT> Now _there's_ Christian family values for you.

PA> Yeah, and _there's_ a reputable source for you.

You didn't disprove the evidence, however.

Rod "...so it stands" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: The impact of pig's wings on lingustics

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patriot
|Sub:  Most Read Book
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:01:24
EID:e4bb 22416820
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2ce24
* On 19-01-97 at 13:17, PATRIOT wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "Most Read Book" in echo Holysmoke:

PA> Actually, according to the Supreme Court (US vs. Trinity
PA> Church) America is indeed a Christian nation.

Can you please cite the case number and year of this decision,
and further, a quotation from the decision that supports this
statement?

Thank you :)

PA> And if you do your homework, you will discover most of the
PA> foundign father of the USA, were Christians..

Wrong.  They were specifically deists who believed in separation
for the benefit of both the state and religions.

Rod "...you're a fool, Patriot." Swift

* OLX 2.1 TD * Dyslexic agnostics don't know whether there is a dog!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patrick Humphrey
|Sub:  Faith And Healing
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:08:26
EID:803a 22416900
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2cfca
* On 21-01-97 at 18:53, PATRICK HUMPHREY wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Faith And Healing" in echo Holysmoke:

PH>  JH>  It's also right next door to the only Scientology Mission in
PH>  JH>  Houston.

PH>  RS> Patrick and Dale-Ann are down near Fondren, about 3 miles from
PH>  RS> Fuzzy's.  You should hear some of the things we've done to the
PH>  RS> Scienos there :)

PH> It'd be nice if J.J. could here them from the staff that were there
on the
PH> day I turned 40, but alas, they seem to have been RPFed.  (They could
at
PH> least pedal to the org -- beats running around a pole all day, any time.
:-)

RICE AND BEANS!!!! :)  RPF for fun and prophet! :)

PH>  RS> Rod "...ahh, I remember the day they were photographing the
PH>  RS> licence plates of each and ever car in the carpark to try and
PH>  RS> find out who we are :)" Swift ;)

PH> Come to think of it, we may rent a car next time...

No...  We'll catch a bus down :)  I'm sure METRO would love to be
accused as governmental conspirators :)

PH> --PLH, how many free NOTS come with a car rental from Alamo?

NUTS! :)

Rod "...hehehe" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Atheism: A non-prophet organisation

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patrick Humphrey
|Sub:  alternative views
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:11:28
EID:bc5b 22416960
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2d080
* On 21-01-97 at 18:56, PATRICK HUMPHREY wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "alternative views" in echo Holysmoke:

RS> I thought it was pepperoni and extra cheese on his Tombstone(tm).
RS> Rod "a Fuzzy's clam pizza for your thoughts?" Swift

PH> No, no, no...they're STILL slightly enturbulated over the last one served
PH> at Fuzzy's.  (The clams next door, I mean.  Fuzzy is still happy, because
PH> he's got us for customers -- and we can afford a bit more than the
PH> occasional iced tea that the clams seem to specialize in...:-)

RS> They specialise only in the iced tea???  Doesn't the El Ron Cult
RS> pay enough? *guffaw*!

PH> Fuzzy would -love- to have a few more customers with purchasing power,
but
PH> dammit, he just won't take the "free stress test" the clams have been
PH> hawking for the last couple of months.  :-)

ROFL!!!!

PH>  PH> --Patrick L. "godless heathen *and* SP 3" Humphrey

PH>  RS> For the benefit of the echo, you might want to publish the ARSCC
PH>  RS> Suppressive Person Rank list :)

PH> I'll have to dig it up when time permits at work.

Please do.  I believe I'm SP4 at the moment, having received a
KKKobragram! :)

PH>  RS> Rod "...i.e. what distinguishes and SP2 from an SP3 or SP4" Swift
:)

PH> Well, being a critic -- even as much as posting an article to
PH> alt.religion.scientology critical of the cult -- gets you the SP 1 award.
PH> The clams have reacted to my presence *or* something I've posted, thus
I'm
PH> an SP 3, at present -- but that *&^%$#@! 'Ho never sent me any e-mail
PH> threatening me with legal action because I asked for a legal copy of
NOTS,
PH> so I'm still striving to make SP 4, someday...

The 'Ho has sent me email ::) :) :) :)

PH> --PLH, my bets are on Grady Ward to make SP 8 -- sue the bastards and
win

I hope so too!

Rod "...and get punitives that can be enforced against them,
rather than them making a part of the church insolvent like in
the Wollersheim case" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Gun Control: The ability to drop a fundie at 500 yards

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patrick Humphrey
|Sub:  Faith And Healing
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:13:30
EID:803a 224169a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2d0fa
* On 21-01-97 at 19:02, PATRICK HUMPHREY wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Faith And Healing" in echo Holysmoke:

PH>  PH>  JH> Let me know when. Fuzzy's is only a mile or two from here.

PH>  PH> It's just a hair short of two miles from where Dale
PH>  PH> and I live, too.  (If I
PH>  PH> remember right, when we had the little conference at Genghis Khan,
we
PH>  PH> hadn't yet moved over here right behind Sharpstown Giant Parking
Lot.)

PH>  RS> I thought it was about 2-3 miles from Dale-Ann the Devious and
PH>  RS> Patrick the Godless Heathen :)

PH> Trust me...I've pedaled up there far too many times to -not- know how
far
PH> it is.  (Actually, though, it's 1.95 miles if I'm -not- suicidal and
take
PH> the safe route up Crossview, but 1.81 if I go for broke and dash up
PH> Fondren. :-)

Ooooh... You mindless speed-demon :)  I wonder if Racky knows
these routes :) :)

PH>  RS> As a matter of honour and respect, I don't disclose ages :)  Oh,
PH>  RS> except to Allen Newton, and only to rile him up :) :)

PH> Let's just say that my next birthday will be of interest to Douglas
Adams
PH> fans. :-)

Yes.  It's the answer :) :)  My last birthday was the one for
dyslexic Adams' fans :)

PH>  PH> --Patrick L. "Grumpy Old Man in training" Humphrey

PH>  RS> You're not grumpy.  If you were truly grumpy, you'd have had the
PH>  RS> entire crowd lynching us at the Solar Bears v Aeros game :)

PH> The way we have the crowd going this season, it could be done --
PH> fortunately, the Solar Bears have made their three visits to town, so
PH> you're off the hook. :-)

Damn.  :)  We will have to fly you to Orlando :) :)

PH>  RS> Rod "...who recently cancelled return tickets to the US because
PH>  RS> of the up-in-the-air nature of the Baehr v Miike appeal :(" Swift
:)

PH> Ouch...and just when we decided -not- to spend the coming weekend in
Utah
PH> watching that certain hockey team of ours play there.  Instead, we'll
have
PH> to rile the folks in Cleveland in April.  :-)

PH> --PLH, a six-by-eight foot Texas flag oughta do it...

No.  A very large copy of the NOTS on a bedsheet should do... :) :)

Rod "...then we can all be New Operating Thetans" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Clean mind, clean body.  Take your pick.

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patrick Humphrey
|Sub:  Lying Jones Scum
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:14:32
EID:cdee 224169c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2d138
* On 21-01-97 at 19:08, PATRICK HUMPHREY wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Lying Jones Scum" in echo Holysmoke:

FR> ~*~  Just shut up and sit back down and ride the bus like the rest of
us.
FR>      - Patrick Humphrey

RS> I'd sorely love to know the context of this one, Fredric or
RS> Patrick :)

PH> Don't ask me...I'm a Method actor for the part of Grumpy Old Man, remember?
PH> :-)

Damn.  :) :)

PH> --PLH, I hope -someone- can tell me if that quote is archived at Deja
News,
PH> though...

I will have a looky looky :)

Rod "...hehehehe :)" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: The impact of pig's wings on lingustics

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patrick Humphrey
|Sub:  Balanced treatment.
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:16:34
EID:4e49 22416a00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2d1b2
* On 21-01-97 at 19:09, PATRICK HUMPHREY wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Balanced treatment." in echo Holysmoke:

RS> That's it, you and 'partner' are invited to my wedding too :)
RS> Rod "...that's another two Houstonites coming along!" Swift

PH> A*hem*.  Dale and I are _Houstonians_.  Houstonites
PH> come down here from up
PH> north.  Houstonians grow from the ground up.  (Or something like that.)

RS> Oh, right... :)  So, what does that make Dakotans?  *wink*

PH> I don't know, but considering Dale's family, I don't think I want to
find
PH> out, either. :-)

Oh, ho ho ho!  *waves to Dale*

PH>  PH> --PLH, how many people wanna ride up for the wedding
PH>  PH> in the back of the Red
PH>  PH> Menace?

PH>  RS> Woowoo!  JJ in the Red Menace?  hahaha :)  Perish the thought.
PH>  RS> How are things going over there for you and Dale, Patrick?

PH> Just muddling through the usual routines, while awaiting the arrival
of our
PH> first grandson -- any day now...

Oh my.  Squeezing out another grandchild :) :)  Soon you will be
constantly travelling 'up north' to see them.

That is, they will be forcing the rerouting of funding from
essential out-of-state Aeros fandom travel to family travel.

SACRILEGE :)

PH>  RS> Rod "...it's just too hot here right now in Oz" Swift :(

PH> It's only going to get up to 24 C here tomorrow.  The Ice Age is back
upon
PH> us.

PH> --PLH, it beats the -20C up in Dale's old neighborhood...

Oh, I think that'd be nice :)

Rod "...it's boiling and 44C today" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * If you choke a Smurf, what colour does it turn?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub:  More grist for your mill
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:16:36
EID:3cbf 22416a00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2d1b4
* On 21-01-97 at 08:08, RICK MCFARLANE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "More grist for your mill" in echo Holysmoke:

RM> Good morning, ROd.

RM> I hope you didn't miss this.

RM>  LA> Good for you then. We need more like that. Incidentally
RM>  LA> my daughter married a man who was born in Holland and whose
RM>  LA> parents migrated to Australia. He is a fine man and has been
RM>  LA> a good husband. Does the name Van Leeuwen, sound like a
RM>  LA> typical "stubborn Hollander"? :-)  He is also a sincere and
RM>  LA> dedicated Christian and Creationist!

RM> Take care.

No, I didn't :)
The research hounds will be sniffing out some info :) :)

Rod "...hope to get some results for you soon" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus Christ Super Fraud.  The Musical!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  HELL-o, a MUST READ post
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:20:38
EID:cdaf 22416a80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2d2a6
* On 22-01-97 at 01:59, DAVID WORRELL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "HELL-o, a MUST READ post" in echo Holysmoke:

DW> 20 Jan 97 00:41, Rod Swift wrote to All:

DW>  RS>            The idea was spawned by flea market operator Leonoso
DW>  RS>         Canales, who told the San Antonio Express-News, "I see
hell
DW>  RS>         in hello. It's disguised by the o, but once you see it,
it
DW>  RS>         will slap you in the face."

DW> 

DW> I guess we can no longer go to the beach to collect
DW> seashells, either. We'll have to collect seasheavens, now.

A-yep!

DW> Somebody ought to send this moron a list of all the words
DW> containg the word "hell."

I can get a list later from the user dictionary online :)

DW> I wonder how he feels about the contraction of "He will?"

Oh, he'aven be really annoyed :)

Rod "...heheheeh" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Clean mind, clean body.  Take your pick.

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jan Deboer
|Sub:  Colorado again...     1/
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:21:40
EID:5db7 22416aa0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2d2e4
* On 22-01-97 at 11:50, JAN DEBOER wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Colorado again..." in echo Holysmoke:

JD> How in the name of Cthulu is one individual able to stick taxpayers
with
JD> the costs of running such a referendum plus the ensuing court battles,
JD> when anyone with an ounce of grey matter can see that such blatant
JD> discrimination is doomed from the start?

And the taxpayers of Colorado should be outraged because they're
not only paying the multi-million-dollar legal bill of the state,
but also the plaintiffs too.

Rod "...because they lost :)" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Lead me not into temptation.  I can find it myself.

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  Fat People
|Date: 01 Feb 97  13:26:42
EID:57d4 22416b40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f2d412
* On 19-01-97 at 08:16, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to BRIAN SHREVE,
on the topic of "FAT PEOPLE" in echo Holysmoke:

JB> -=> Brian Shreve spoke thusly to Marilyn Burge <=-

JB>  BS> most cases of homosexuality is in the genes, and not a choice.
JB>  BS> (And nope, I'm not fat or gay or bisexual. I'm just a mental case.

JB> I'm waiting for the day we get the perfect target for all of us...
JB> a fat, gay, black, Jewish, Republican fundamentalist.

Paul Boyer is not fat or black :) :)

Rod "...ducking for cover" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * The best prophet of the future is the past

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  Black lipstick
|Date: 02 Feb 97  13:39:44
EID:9776 22426ce0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f428a0
* On 18-01-97 at 07:30, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to GWENNY THE POOH,
on the topic of "Black lipstick" in echo Holysmoke:

JB> Try PUPPY MILLS. After the raid in Washington state, that's even more
JB> disgusting. (250 dogs SURVIVED, 77 pups between the ages of 3 and 6
weeks
JB> with no way of telling which mother belonged to which pups, ears on
JB> so-called fighting breeds not just cropped but cut off...with scissors.)

And we can't forget that Houston-area Puppy Mill for Jesus --
can we... :(

Rod "...all those few months back" Swift :(

* OLX 2.1 TD * Satanic: Anything a fundie Christian doesn't like

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  archives
|Date: 02 Feb 97  13:43:46
EID:3e32 22426d60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f42992
* On 14-01-97 at 16:25, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "archives" in echo Holysmoke:

JB> I'm looking for archives of the stupidest, most illogical and/or the
JB> most repugnant posts to hit this echo. (In the last year only, please,
I
JB> don't have THAT much space.)

Should set up a webpage... Worst of the month :) :)

Rod "...what a great idea"! Swift!

* OLX 2.1 TD * Arachnohomophobia: Fear of gay spiders

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Becke, slave to satan
|Date: 02 Feb 97  13:46:48
EID:8abc 22426dc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f42a48
* On 21-01-97 at 17:15, AL SCHROEDER wrote to GEORGE MOOTH,
on the topic of "Becke, slave to satan" in echo Holysmoke:

AS>  GM> BTW, what is the answer to my question.  Whne will you choose to
be
AS>  GM> free and not a slave to satan?

AS>  George, I'm a believer. I've been terminally bored with what you have
AS>  spammed us with over the years, but I AM a believer. And I have a question
AS>  for  you.
AS>    Do you think such an approach will win ANYONE, much less an unbeliever,
AS>  to your side? Whether you think it is the truth or not, from Becke's
point
AS>  of view, who believes in neither God nor Satan, your question is as
silly
AS>  as her asking you when you will stop being a slave to Loki?  Nor is
it
AS>  couched in such a way that would encourage her to come to you...especially
AS>  since she has a history of abuse and neglect by the church she was
brought
AS>  up in?

You're false Loki scum, Al...  That's it :)

Rod "...ping!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * If Jesus loves me, why does he never send flowers?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Chris Green
|Sub:  Chris Green
|Date: 02 Feb 97  14:06:50
EID:c10e 224270c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f42efa
* On 20-01-97 at 14:03, CHRIS GREEN wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Chris Green" in echo Holysmoke:

[Maureen wrote:]
CG> They are going to knock out all of the trigeminal (sp?) nerve and remove
CG> one of a series of growths from his brain, the others cannot be worked
CG> on.

CG> He will have to learn how to use the right side of his head, the eye,
CG> eyelid, mouth, tongue, chewing, moving the neck, moving the shoulder.
CG> There will be a large hole in the roof of his mouth.  There will be
CG> damage to his eyes.

CG> Having read the rubbish in this packet, I suggest you talk about the
CG> right of the individual to choose when they want to die, and the
CG> available ways of doing so.

I am a 100% supporter of any person's right to end their life in
whatever humane manner they should choose.

The Northern Territory of Australia currently has a right-to-die
act for terminal or suffering patients.  The method by which one
seeks to end their life is to receive the approval of three
medical practitioners.  One must be a recognised psychologist to
assess the mental composure and desire of the person wishing to
end their life.  Another must be a recognised specialist
medical practitioner who is an expert in the field of treatment
of the ailness.

If there are all three signatures present, the patient can choose
to exercise the choice to die at any time.

There have now been three people who have ended their life under
the Northern Territory Right to Die laws.

And this is the reason I support the right to die being allowed.
It is not an automatic right to terminate life, it is regulated.
It is *strictly* regulated so that it can only be achieved for
compassionate grounds of terminally ill patients suffering daily
miserable conditions.

I support the right-to-die for terminally ill patients because
they should have the choice to end their pain in a dignified
manner.

Currently most nations and states on Earth compel patients to
endure months or years of torturing pain rather than respect the
rights of these patients.

And the majority of the reasons why most don't respect the right
to die is because of sanctimonious religious belief systems.

Rod "...compassion costs nothing" Swift

* OLX 2.1 TD * That tagline is *true* ---> <--- That tagline is *false*

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97  14:27:52
EID:0844 22427360
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f433e8
* On 21-01-97 at 19:44, JONATHAN FINGAS wrote to DAN CEPPA,
on the topic of "Hypocritical people" in echo Holysmoke:

JF>  DC> Satan, unlike your god, never lies in the bible.  It's your god
JF>  DC> that is the two-faced liar.

JF>   Let me guess, you suffered some deep psychological trauma
JF> when your were a kid.  That's the only reason you'd attack
JF> people for no good reason other than to sound high and
JF> mighty.

I like this, Jonathan.  You Christian-hypocritical-types like to
claim this "traumatic" background of everyone different to you.
It's used against different people, people who rebel from your
religion, people who are non-Christian yet religious, people who
are Christian yet have differing doctrinal views, etc, etc, etc.

Have you ever considered that the truth is that we've actually
never had any traumatic experiences, and it is the Christians
that have?  I note that virtually every Christian I have met has
had some form of tyrannical abuse against them, or tortuous
childhood, or mental abuse from a spouse... and have been
weakened and worn down and lost all hope.

Rod "...of course you've not considered it" Swift

* OLX 2.1 TD * Arachnohomophobia: Fear of gay spiders

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97  15:30:54
EID:0844 22427bc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f442ae
* On 21-01-97 at 19:48, JONATHAN FINGAS wrote to DAN CEPPA,
on the topic of "Hypocritical people" in echo Holysmoke:

JF>  JF> Finally, you say something right.

JF>  DC> Gee, I'm so "honored" by your approval that I could just shit.
JF>  DC> To bad you still intend on interfering with the girl's choice.

JF>   Now would you please stop using crude, immature language here!?

Fuck off, dear, that's a good boy :)

JF> I read that previous message about swearing, and quite frankly you
JF> seem to be the worst excuse for a human being there is.

Judge not, lest you be judged, fuckwit.

JF> You seem to yell at people for no other reason than to keep
JF> an over-inflated ego, and most of what you shout isn't even
JF> true or proveable.  I wouldn't let any children near you...
JF> you'd scare them off!

I wouldn't let any children near you, save that they be infected
with your mental disorder of religion.

JF>   Advising isn't necessarily "interference."  If I advise a
JF> woman not to go through with an abortion, that doesn't mean
JF> I'm insisting.  If she went through with it anyways, I
JF> would leave her be.

Actually, it is interference unless your opinion is asked.

interfere: 1. to interpose, especially meddlesomely or unwarrant-
edly; intervene
2. to come between or in opposition; hinder; obstruct

The unasked and meddlesome advice into the affairs of another is
interference.  If you don't like the definition, change the
dictionary :)

JF>  DC> The girl has a right to the facts of the matter.  Not the rhetoric
JF>  DC> from  "Pro-life", but of the actual facts.  She can then make a
JF>  DC> proper decision.

JF>   The facts involve opinions from BOTH sides, not yours
JF> only nor mine only.  A woman has the right to make her own
JF> choice, but she should remember what she's giving up with
JF> either choice.

So she has the right to make a decision, but has no right to
choose to seek information or not?

Rod "...your compulsory interference in the lives of others is so
typically Christian. :(" Swift :(

* OLX 2.1 TD * Do not adjust your mind, the fault is with reality.

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jonathan Fingas
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:50:00
EID:0844 22433e40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f52828
* On 22-01-97 at 21:26, JONATHAN FINGAS wrote to DAN CEPPA,
on the topic of "Hypocritical people" in echo Holysmoke:

JF>  DC> Let me state:  You are a fundy fool and revel in the shit you
JF>  DC> strew.

JF>   By the way, you know how you said changing peoples' words
JF> can get you kicked out of this forum?  Well excessive (and
JF> very pointless) profanity is another.

Are you so sure?  I thought impersonating a moderator would be
much more severe... :)

And you are wrong, anyway:

===========================================================================
BBS: The Perth Omen
Date: 22-01-97 (19:38)             Number: 2550
From: STYX ALLUM                   Refer#: NONE
To: ALL                           Recvd: NO
Subj: Conference Guidelines          Conf: (16) Holysmoke
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: HOLYSMOKE Echo Guidelines
---------------------------------------------------------------------
[...snip...]
Rules to Follow:

[1] Please refrain from attempting to force your ideas on others,
or to be deliberately disruptive in the echo.
Those who engage in such activity may find their feed to this
echo terminated.
[2] As is customary in echomail, private messages are not allowed.
[3] If you wish to post messages on this echo please try to keep
your comments and ideas on a rational level.  This will help
to facilitate an open and free flowing dialogue.
Please refrain from entering statements like:
"I know I'm right and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid!"
or
"You're gonna burn in hell if you don't accept god."
Such messages only serve to irritate others, and do little
more than to raise the noise level of the echo.
[4] Attempt to quote only relevant text, in order to make your
messages more legible, and to lessen the burden on those
who pay to move each byte posted in this conference.
[5] Deliberate censorship of wording contained within a quote
attributed to another in this echo is expressly forbidden.
[...snip...]
===========================================================================

Nothing in there about the use of profanity, as far as I can see.
I'm sure that Styx will inform you if you are correct or not.  I
would not presume to speak for him.

JF>  JF> How is non-religiousness better?  Non-religiousness only promotes

JF>  DC> When was the last time someone was murdered at a abortion clinic
JF>  DC> by an atheist?

JF>   As I keep saying (and you keep ignoring), those are the
JF> fanatics that let their personal emotions override the
JF> actual teachings they claim to adhere to.

Your bible teaches, in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, to kill gay
people and that their deaths shall not be your responsibility.

Have you allowed your personal emotions to override that
teaching that you claim to adhere to?

When was the last time you killed a fag for Jesus (Lev 20:13),
Molech worshippers (Lev 20:2), people who curse their parents
(Lev 20:9), adulterers with another's wife (Lev 20:10) or with
the wife of the person's father (Lev 20:11) or a daughter-in-law
(Lev 20:12), marrying a woman and her mother (Lev 20:14),
bestialists (Lev 20:15 and 20:16 and don't forget to kill the
animal)...

Then again, when was the last time you ran someone out of town
for having sexual relations with their wife while she was having
her period? (Lev 20:18)

Or have you dispensed with such things because "you let your
personal emotions override the actual teachings" that you claim
to adhere to?

JF> Atheists have it "easy," so to speak; they have no beliefs,
JF> and so no reason to get worked up.

Actually, we have ethics which don't require any *invisible*
means of support, i.e. greater beings to spank us.

JF>  DC> What, that your religion is a bigotted piece of shit?  The
JF>  DC> evidence for that would be in front of your face if you
JF>  DC> ever got your head out of your ass.

JF>   Bigoted!?  AS I KEEP SAYING, the fanatics, not the
JF> religion, are intolerant.

See above.  I have proven your religion intolerant.  The fact
that you show tolerance is *un*Christian of you.  You should
learn to be more hateful like your bible not only commands, but
expects.

JF>   Who's calling who the bigot?  You're the one who is
JF> totally intolerant of Christianity and religion in general.

Nice fundie shuffle.  Do you do the fundie tango and two-step too?

JF>  DC> Yep, a Christian.

JF>   Christianity does not equal evil.  If it did, then every
JF> non-Christian on this planet would be dead or converted!

No.  Christianity does equal evil.  It does, because every
non-Christian on this planet *is* being subjected to persecution
by Christians.

Or do you deny that Christianity is being used to destroy
cultures and other religions in the developing world?

Rod "...Christianity should be eliminated, now!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Hey fundie! Why can't your mind be as open as your mouth?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  grrr
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:24:02
EID:59e7 22433b00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f52212
* On 21-01-97 at 21:46, ED MILLS wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "grrr" in echo Holysmoke:

EM> 19 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Rod Swift to Ed Mills:

EM> EM>          I hurried myself to the local Dumbshit Redneck Accoutrement
EM> EM>          Shoppe, where I procured the medium-sized chrome-plated-naked-
EM> EM>          centerfold silhouette. Attached upside-down over the fish
EM> EM>          silhouette, it irritated practically everyone who pulled
up
EM> EM>          behind me in the incredibly cerebral town of Roseburg.

EM>  RS> You should have ordered one of those metallic Darwin Fish ... the
EM>  RS> fish with legs.  Optional words include "DARWIN" inside the fish.

EM>     We got 'em here. Also have some stickers which have the international
EM>     circle-slash superimposed on the xtian fish.

EM>     And the thumpers responded with a bumpersticker which depicts an
even
EM>     larger holy fish eating the Darwin fish. Gonna be pretty hard to
EM>     respond to that. Their irrationality is a great tactical advantage.
EM>     Calvinball!

No... Then you need the SCIENCE SHARK :)

Rod "...praise Jesus.... *chomp" Swift :)

EM> --- PPoint 2.00
EM>  * Origin: St. Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/24.12)

* OLX 2.1 TD * First rule of intelligent tinkering: Save all the parts

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Hard up Hardy
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:26:04
EID:2871 22433b40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f5228c
* On 22-01-97 at 19:47, AL SCHROEDER wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Hard up Hardy" in echo Holysmoke:

AS>  RS> Oh, do you have to? :(  It'd be so much easier if you didn't...
:)

AS>  But...but...that's not what you said last NIGHT! (sniff!)

Yes it was.

AS>  AS>  And I bowl with my right hand, for instance.

AS>  RS> You leaner either way, you :)

AS>  Just call me...dramatic pause...versitile.

Versatile is being top or bottom, not a player for both teams.

AS>  AS>  You have to take Jim with a grain of salt. He is not
AS>  AS> quite as reactionary as you might think.

AS>  RS> I've been able to get some quite nasty reactions out of him.  I
AS>  RS> don't know why.  Maybe it's because he has some sort of
AS>  RS> deep-seated desire...

AS>  He's a grandfather. If he's repressed, it seems to be pretty far...

I fear for any male children he may have, then :)

Rod "...no further comment" Swift

* OLX 2.1 TD * Could crop circles be the work of a cereal killer?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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/10 3612/41 3615/50
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Satanism
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:27:06
EID:b433 22433b60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f522ca
* On 22-01-97 at 21:45, AL SCHROEDER wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Satanism" in echo Holysmoke:

AS>  AS>  AS>  Never. I've heard it's good, but I've never gotten
AS>  AS>  AS> around to watching Red  Dwarf.

AS>  AS>  RS> That's because you've probably got lost near Nodnol.  My fave
AS>  AS>  RS> episode was "Srdawkcab"

AS>  AS>  Thanks for the recommendation!

AS>  RS> You are welcome.

AS>  What's your favorite B5 episode?

Believers.  Nothing like having a doctor usurp and destroy the
religion of a young child for the sake of his own religion.

Rod "...but I guess it parallels the Christian faith so" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  U don't push a women
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:30:08
EID:1356 22433bc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f52380
* On 22-01-97 at 22:04, AL SCHROEDER wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "U don't push a women" in echo Holysmoke:

AS>  AS>  Yeah? Rod, let me know the URL and I'll link it to my
AS>  AS> website. And did you
AS>  AS>  know there is now a HolySmoke Web Ring?

AS>  RS> Please don't for now :)

AS>  Snob.  It's because I'm a breeder, isn't it! Isn't it?? Tell the
AS>  truth....(Just kidding...)

Actually, that is the prime reason.  Not kidding.  I do not wish
to have my page associated with you.

AS>  RS> No, this is my real name.  Any person finding anything out of the
AS>  RS> conjunction of the two names has a "sick" mind.

AS>  That's me.

And this is a secondary reason I do not wish to have my page
associated with you.

AS>  AS>    No offense meant (especially if that IS your real name). And
I still
AS>  AS>  want the URL...and drop by mine and tell me what you think!

AS>  RS> It is my real name, and yes, I do take offense. :)

AS>  Well, the best defense is a good offense....

And this is a tertiary reason I do not wish to have my page
associated with you.

If I do find that you remain linked, I will change the URL, and
remove all references to my surname, hence making an Altavista
search impossible.  Not kidding.

Rod "...I don't forgive, remember?" Swift :(

* OLX 2.1 TD * Found God?  What, have you lost him *again*?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Josef Berg
|Sub:  Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:32:10
EID:20c9 22433c00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f523fa
* On 22-01-97 at 15:27, JOSEF BERG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Our Daily Bread" in echo Holysmoke:

JB> Moderator:  GAY_FAITH

Interesting.  Tell me more.  Is that a gay Holysmoke? :)

Rod "...hehehe" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Save the whales.  Collect the whole set!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Josef Berg
|Sub:  Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:33:12
EID:20c9 22433c20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f52438
* On 22-01-97 at 15:37, JOSEF BERG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Our Daily Bread" in echo Holysmoke:

JB>  GM>> A BAD PRAYER THAT'S GOOD

JB>  GM>> IN PRAYER, GOD HEARS MORE THAN WORDS -
JB>  GM>> HE LISTENS TO YOUR HEART.

JB> ...What I can't understand in all of this Christian nonsense is this:
it is
JB> claimed that God is omnipotent; that he knows all, sees all.  Then what
is t
JB> purpose of prayer other than to accentuate one's selfishness?

To accentuate one's selfish desire for a God to perform like a
seal at a zoo, and to reinforce the delusion that something might
come true.

Rod "...and hence bolster a faith that is based on a lie" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * REALITY.SYS corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Christian's secret weakn
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:36:14
EID:8f9f 22433c80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f524ee
* On 23-01-97 at 13:47, DAN CEPPA wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Christian's secret weakn" in echo Holysmoke:

DC> -> On 19 Jan 97  13:16:12, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa

DC>  RS> * On 15-12-96 at 09:26, DAN CEPPA wrote to ROD SWIFT,
DC> .....        ^^

DC> I see you are getting a bit closer to being current.  You are
DC> only about a month behind.

But the good thing about catching up that 3 month-backlog over
about 2 months is the fact that I selectively scanned packets,
rather than reading and replying to damn near every message like
Al B does...

Be fearful if Al B ever gets behind in reading Fight-O-Net :)
We'd be able to have an upload of thousands of replies, each at
least 20 paragraphs long :)

Rod "....arrgggghh!!!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Famous graffitti: Please don't write on the -- oops!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Creationists on trial!
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:37:16
EID:1923 22433ca0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f5252c
* On 23-01-97 at 13:49, DAN CEPPA wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Creationists on trial!" in echo Holysmoke:

DC> -> On 17 Jan 97  06:49:00, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa

DC>  DC>  RS> A BIZARRE courtroom battle over whether God or evolution
DC>  DC>  RS> was responsible for human beings will be played out in

DC>  RS> I'll try and find a verdict in the case if it is online.  It
DC>  RS> happened in New South Wales, so there may be an online copy of
it

DC> Any news on the trial yet?

No.  But I'll keep an ear to the ground.  Might have to find some
email addresses (I think Plimer has one) and write to them :)

Rod "...heheheeh" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Velcronomicon: A magick book that sticks with you

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Lee Woofenden
|Sub:  Why don't we see God[sic
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:41:18
EID:6f02 22433d20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f5261e
* On 22-01-97 at 10:30, LEE WOOFENDEN wrote to JAN DEBOER,
on the topic of "Why don't we see God[sic]" in echo Holysmoke:

LW> And in the very same chapter:

LW>      Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."

Cor!!!
Moses likes the gutted Ewok! :) :)

Rod "...Bing!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Bugger me with a fish fork!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  .
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:41:20
EID:1b6c 22433d20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f52620
* On 22-01-97 at 08:01, AL SCHROEDER wrote to LYNDA BUSTILLOZ,
on the topic of "." in echo Holysmoke:

AS>  AS> When it comes to pies, I prefer lemon meringue anyway...

AS>  LB> A real Sourpuss, eh? ;)

AS>  Also, last I heard, there were no lemon-flavored laxatives, which seems
to
AS>  be one of the main ingredients of the chocolate pie proferred by the
AS>  Triple Goddess of #irc...

Don't you mean:
"...last I tasted"?

Rod "...here, have some pie, Al" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Hey fundie! Why can't your mind be as open as your mouth?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patriot
|Sub:  Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:54:22
EID:f3fc 22433ec0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f5292e
* On 22-01-97 at 01:58, PATRIOT wrote to DAVID WORRELL,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:

PA>  DW> 19 Jan 97 13:22, Patriot wrote to Fredric Rice:

PA>  P> Besides, it isn't as if Christians are the only ones against
PA>  P> homosexuality..

PA>  DW> Yeah, and it isn't as if Nazis are the only ones
PA>  DW> against Jews, either, right?

PA> Well, I must say, you must have a pretty good imagination
PA> to come up with an analogy like that..  There is a bit of a
PA> difference between Christians and Nazis,

... both are Christian...

PA> ... as well as between gays and Jews.

... both are persecuted by Christians of some sort ...

I cannot see why you complain about the analogy of Nazis
persecuting Jews, to Christians persecuting gay people.

In fact, have you seen most of the propaganda that is put out
about gay people by Christians?  The myths that gays "recruit"
and "want your children" and are "well-off" are not so dissimilar
to the myths perpetrated to stir up hatred of Jews.

And the fact that Christians are willing to lie so that they can
dehumanise gay people and cause false witness -- well -- that's
obvious.  The Christian nazis did that of Jews.

Rod "...it is analogous" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Never attribute to malice that which stupidity explains

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Patriot
|Sub:  Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Feb 97  07:59:24
EID:07e0 22433f60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f52a5c
* On 22-01-97 at 17:06, PATRIOT wrote to JAN DEBOER,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:

PA> I have no problem with MINORITIEs.  WHy be against someone
PA> for the color of their skin or anything else visible that
PA> they cannot change?

A good question.  Why are you against gay people?

Meanwhile, people of religion choose their religion. Christians
can choose not to be Christian. Are you saying they deserve no
equality in civil rights protections because religion is a choice?

Are you going to amend the constitution to remove the protection
against religious discrimination and freedom of religion?

PA> That is one big difference right there, while I can almost
PA> hear you already, gays chose to be that way.. Blacks, Jews,
PA> etc., did not.

You are wrong.  Since I can offer you further information for
your educative wellbeing, I do:

___------------------------------------------------------------------
From:   "Psychology and You: Answers to Your Questions About
Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality"
By:     The American Psychological Association

[This pamphlet is available from APA, 750 First St NE, Washington
DC 20002-4242, phone 202-336-5700]

Q: Is sexual orientation a choice?

A: No.  Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early
adolescence without any prior sexual experience.  And some
people report trying very hard over many years to change
their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual with
no success.  For these reasons, psychologists do not consider
sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be
voluntarily changed.
___------------------------------------------------------------------

Rod "...there, you have been corrected by science, have a nice
day" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Can I put my Sharp in your mainframe on the desktop?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  kablooey
|Date: 03 Feb 97  08:08:26
EID:08bb 22434100
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f52c7a
* On 23-01-97 at 13:22, ED MILLS wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "kablooey" in echo Holysmoke:

EM>     I vaguely remember it being Mt. Mazama, (the precursor to Crater
EM>     Lake) but I'm not sure... maybe it was Krakatoa? Anyone know fer
EM>     sure?

Krakatoa's eruption in 1883 was the largest ever recorded.  The whole
island went kaboom.  :)  You can read about it in most general
references.  Eruptions in the area have caused Anau Krakatoa to
form -- a new island.

Rod "...kerboom for Jesus!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  He's right, dear.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:06:00
EID:c60c 224558c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f7f918
* On 22-01-97 at 13:00, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "He's right, dear." in echo Holysmoke:

JS> JS> Hi, Fred. How's it going? A bit insecure? You have to bash a poor
---------------------------------------
JS> JS> Christian to get your day going? Let me tell you this: After a hard
week
--------------------------------
JS> JS> of deadlines and working 4 jobs, PRAISE GOD! HE IS GOOD!  Life is
good.
JS> JS> Have a good week.

JS>  RS> I like you Jim.  Whenever we think you've been pacified, you come
JS>  RS> out with the darnedest of hateful lines.

JS>  RS> Did you have Christian guiding in the posting of this attack on
JS>  RS> Fredric?  Hmmm?

JS> What in the above was 'hateful'?

See the underlined section.

JS> Where did I 'attack' him?

See the underlined section.

You never answered the question about whether that "loving
Christian spirit" was guiding you when you wrote and posted your
hateful diatribe, Jim.

Rod "...BTW, the sad puppy act doesn't work on me" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * If Jesus loves me, why does he never send flowers?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Irc Log Fun!          1/
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:07:02
EID:4c27 224558e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f7f956
* On 22-01-97 at 13:07, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Irc Log Fun!" in echo Holysmoke:

JS> JS>  FR>     #1 Admit your a homophobic bigot

JS> JS>  I am not.

JS>  RS> Oh yes you are Jimbot! :)  Of course, I was faking being Laurie
JS>  RS> Appleton to you, but this was riotously funny:

JS>  RS> IRC log started Sat Dec 28 12:26
JS>  RS> *** SnoopDD (~YoMomma@ip10.grand-rapids.mi.pub-ip.psi.net) has
joined
JS>  RS> channel #h > Jim?
JS>  RS> > oh, you're back

JS>         

JS> Yeah...I'm still laughing. So what was your point?

The point was made above by Fred, and now proven.

Rod "...and the fact you are gullible :)" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: Name alternatives to eternal nothingness

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:08:04
EID:3b03 22455900
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f7f994
* On 22-01-97 at 13:08, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "My Summer Weekend" in echo Holysmoke:

JS> JS>  RS> Because Christians can't convert anything but poor, feeble,
JS> JS>  RS> worndown humans who are in need of *something* to give them
hope.

JS> JS>  RS> Try converting me, kiddy!

JS> JS> Sure. Where do you want to start? And would you like to be converted
to?

JS>  RS> You may start your futile conversion attempt anywhere you
JS>  RS> damn well like :)

JS> Yeah, I realize any conversation with you is futile, as you do not take
JS> anything in a serious manner...

Oh, so that's why Christians don't attempt to convert people like
me???  Because they are too chicken??? :)  Afraid their theology
will be dismantled by me???

Rod "....bwaaaark! cluck-cluck-cluck!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * At least I never misplaced the Deltivid asteroid belt - Q

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:19:06
EID:3b03 22455a60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f7fc2a
* On 22-01-97 at 13:11, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "My Summer Weekend" in echo Holysmoke:

JS> On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...

JS> JS> JS> Truely the greatest country to ever exist under the
JS> JS> JS> sun does not have an
JS> JS> JS> oppressive system of government.

JS> JS>  RS> So gay people are equal in the US, eh?

JS> JS>  By Jim Staal they are...

JS>  RS> That did not answer the question.  You stated the US has no
JS>  RS> oppressive government regimes.  I asked you if there was
JS>  RS> oppression against gays *by* the government.

JS>  No you didn't. Read your post again.

No, I asked you if gay people *are* equal under the law in the US.
You answered the question "are gay people equal to Jim Staal?".

You dodged the hard question by answering a completely different
question.  How disingenuous of you, Jim. :)

JS>  RS> You gave a personal, not governmental, answer.

JS>  RS> Please try again.

JS>  I am not the government.

But you claimed that the United States is "truely the greatest
country to ever exist under the sun" and "does not have an
oppressive system of government".

I get it.  You claim to be able to speak for the government when
citing moronic rhetoric about freedoms, though when challenged,
you claim you *aren't* the government and don't have any
authority to speak on the matter.

Let's run that past you again...  If its praise for the
government you speak for it.  If its condemnation for the
government you can't speak for it.

Sounds like propaganda to me :)

propaganda (n) 1. the organised dissemination of
information, allegations, etc, to either
ASSIST or DAMAGE the cause of a government,
movement, etc.
2. such information, material, etc.

JS> JS>  RS> So black people are treated equally in the US?

JS> JS>  By Jim Staal they are. Why are you putting this on me?

JS>  RS> I'm actually not asking you, Jim, as stated above.  I'm asking
JS>  RS> you to provide governmental examples of inequality.

JS>  I know of none.

You know of no black people treated equally in the US?  Wow!
What an admission! :)

JS> JS>  RS> If the US is so great, why can't it provide for it's sick and
JS> JS>  RS> poor and homeless?

JS> JS>  Most of the homeless are that way because they want it that way.
JS>  RS>                                   -----------------------------

JS>  RS> You've been watching B5 again and swallowing the Ministry of
JS>  RS> Peace's Bullshit, eh?

JS>  Sorry, in the USA we do not have a propaganist, government controlled
JS>  press, so I have no knowledge of what you speak.

No.  The propaganda is being perpetrated by people like you, Jim.  :)
You really should stop living as Alice in Wonderland, Jimbo.

JS> JS>  RS> Rod "Ask my partner if the US is the best nation on this earth.
JS> JS>  RS> He will tell you otherwise." Swift

JS> JS>  What does he know? Is he sleeping with Herr Doktor Marty Leipzig?

JS>  RS> I've never made any statements of infidelity about your wife.
JS>  RS> Why do you make an ad hominem attack on my husband?

JS>  Hmmm...isn't this alleged 'husband' living in the USA? Show me the
JS>  certificate of marriage.

I never used the word husband.  I used partner.  However, you
never answered why it is "Christian"(tm) for you to make claims
which stink of false witness about my partner with a clearly
unevidenced attack on our relationship's fidelity.

It must be all that fluoride in the water, eh Jim?

JS>  RS> Rod "...is it because you're a slimy, lying Christian after all
JS>  RS> -- and that you do treat gays discriminately?" Swift :)

JS> You really like to make these totally ignorant accusations, don't you...

Actually, it was a question.  You could have answered, simply,
"no".  Or you could have probably been more truthful and answered
with a simple "yes".  :) :)

Rod "...but is it because you're a slimy, lying, *false
witnessing Christian after all?" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Was that my hard drive, or are you torturing a cat?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Ha!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:28:08
EID:ed89 22455b80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f7fe48
* On 22-01-97 at 13:14, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:

JS> JS>  RS> I was in Dallas, the morning that the Murrah building went
in
JS> JS>  RS> OKC.  I remember the hysteria, the footage live on NBC, on
CBS,
JS> JS>  RS> on ABC.

JS> JS>  Yeah...I was in Muskegon, Michigan. Big deal and so what?

JS>  RS> So you support domestic Christian terrorism?

JS> I know of none.

So the Oklahoma Bombing was not domestic Christian terrorism?

Do you know the meaning of the words "domestic Christian
terrorism"?  Here's a pointer.  Domestic means "carried out
inside the US-borders by people who reside in the US".  Christian
means "people who claim to ascribe to the Christian faith and/or
pronounce that they have performed an act for the Christian faith
or deity-construct".  Terrorism can be defined as "an act of
terrorising or systematic use of violence and intimidation to
achieve some goal or political change by means of terror".

Restating the question, do you think that the Oklahoma bombing
was "an act used to cause terror by a US resident towards a
US-based target, the resident acting due to their religious
convictions?"

JS> JS>  RS> Real national patriots don't do domestic terrorism.  How does
an
JS> JS>  RS> egalitarian right-wing gun nut say "I killed your
JS> JS>  RS> husband/wife/kid for patriotic reasons?"

JS> JS>  RS> I also remember Paul Hill and John Salvi, doctor-murderers.

JS> JS>  Salvi is dead. Shut up.

JS>  RS> Hill isn't yet...  Such a shame.  Do you support domestic
JS>  RS> Christian terrorism?

JS>  I know of none.

So abortion clinic murders is not domestic Christian terrorism?

Were John Salvi and Paul Hill "US residents, targetting US-based
targets, acting to cause terror, in the name of their religion?"

See above for definitions, if you are too dumb to string a
sentence together or fail to understand the question!  :)

JS> JS>  RS> Christianity is love and tolerance, as long as you are a
JS> JS>  RS> Christian.

JS> JS>  LIAR!

Oooh... Such a negative response.  Must be an engram :) :)

JS>  RS> Bullshit, Jimson.  The whole POINT of Christianity is to DESTROY
JS>  RS> that which is NOT JUST LIKE YOU.

JS>  RS> Convert or Kill, it's not only Christianity's guiding principle,
JS>  RS> but it's also CHRISTIAN LAW of the BIBLE!

JS>  Show me where Christ commanded this?

Christ commanding it <> It being God's word.
You find it in your bible, you bible parrot! :)

JS> JS>  Screw commies, treehuggers, bleeding heart liberal, feminazis and
send
JS> JS>  the illegals back where they came from.

JS>  RS> Ah.  So you believe in the principle of governmental-mandated
JS>  RS> inequality and division among US citizens?

JS> I know of none.

You were the one who proposed governmental screwing of "commies,
treehuggers, bleeding-heart liberal, feminazis" and "illegals".

Rod "... you emulate your saviour's behaviour so well, Jim.
Honestly.... NOT!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Anti-women, anti-gay -- born again bigot, go away!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Ha!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:30:10
EID:ed89 22455bc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f7fec2
* On 22-01-97 at 13:16, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:

JS> JS>  RS> I bet you that Jim is the type of Republican't who supports
the
JS> JS>  RS> selling of those bumper stickers that were sold earlier this
year
JS> JS>  RS> in Arizona and Texas (among other places) which proudly proclaim:
JS> JS>  RS>  "AIDS: God's way of turning fruits into vegetables"

JS> JS>  RS> Such loving sentiment from the party that's "the big tent".

JS> JS> No. You are in error.

JS>  RS> I am *not* in error.  This activity *did* occur.  Those stickers
JS>  RS> have even been criticised by major Republican players in AZ (like
JS>  RS> Barry Goldwater).

JS> And also by little ones like Jim Staal

Jim Staal condemns and criticises something that he claims only
one post prior that never existed :) :)

Rod "... too bad he hasn't oiled his bike-chain of late, I could
hear the frantic back-pedalling a mile away..." Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Bugger me with a fish fork!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  wisdom
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:34:12
EID:7cd0 22455c40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f7ffb4
* On 22-01-97 at 13:18, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "wisdom" in echo Holysmoke:

[about what should happen to gay people...]

JS> JS>  RS> Tortured?

JS> JS>  A little...if they like it. ;)

JS>  RS> We know you like it :)

JS> A little pain can be nice...

I know.  It's why you keep coming back for more, Jim.  It's all
that homoeroticism that turns you on :) ever since you watched
Pulp Fiction... :)

JS> JS>  RS> Killed?

JS> JS>  Wha for?

JS> JS>  RS> Anything else reprehensible that you'd like to do to other
humans
JS> JS>  RS> who aren't of the same sexuality as you are?

JS> JS>  Treat them as humans?

JS>  RS> But your bible doesn't say that, Jimson.  It says to kill them,
JS>  RS> and further, the putting of them to death is a punishment and
JS>  RS> their blood shall be upon them.

JS>  RS> So... When are you going to start acting like a True Christian
JS>  RS> (tm) and execute some gay people?

JS> (Mat 13:24 NIV)  Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven
JS> is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
JS> (Mat 13:25 NIV)  But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and
JS> sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
JS> (Mat 13:26 NIV)  When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the
JS> weeds also appeared.
JS> (Mat 13:27 NIV)  "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir,
JS> didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come
JS> from?'
JS> (Mat 13:28 NIV)  "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked
JS> him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
JS> (Mat 13:29 NIV)  "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling
the
JS> weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
JS> (Mat 13:30 NIV)  Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time
JS> I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in
JS> bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

JS> It is obvious from Christ's parable above that that isn't my job.

So you are saying the word of God is erred?  The word of God in
your bible clearly says:

LEV 20:13  If a man has sexual relations with another
man, they have both done a disgusting thing,
and both shall be put to death.  THEY ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN DEATH.

The bible clearly says Christians should kill gay people, and do
so without any guilt or remorse or adverse judgement in God's
eyes.  How do you explain your biblical contradiction, or do you
now fully admit you are applying Matthew 13 incorrectly to the
situation?

Rod "... or are you just an ignorant shmuck?" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Lies...
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:41:14
EID:d863 22455d20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f8015a
* On 22-01-97 at 13:22, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Lies..." in echo Holysmoke:

JS> JS> JS> You just don't get it, do you, Ceppa? Christ _satisfied_ all
the
JS> JS> JS> demands of the law. He took care of it. 

JS> JS>  RS> So it was a bug fix?

JS> JS> No, it was God's plan.

JS>  RS> But it was God's plan to get it right the first time.  Don't you
JS>  RS> read your bible?  I still contend it was a "bug fix".

JS> He did. Have you never read the Bible? And yet you criticize it?

God didn't get the bible right, hence the bug fix.
Yes, I have read your mythbook.
Yes, I criticise it's hypnotic effect over the delusional and the
despaired.

JS> JS>  RS> How does this fare in contradiction to the bible's claim that
JS> JS>  RS> "God never changes" nor his laws?

JS> JS>  He never changes. Nor do his laws.

JS>  RS> I note that God always changes -- there's a different version of
JS>  RS> him in every Christian I meet.  Normally a different version
JS>  RS> based on what sins they are practicing, and their denial of that
JS>  RS> sin.

JS>  Interesting point...

One that you can't answer, can you?  If God is all-powerful, he'd
have written a book that would be unable to be read in so many
ways to hence create so many deity-constructs by so many
different people.

JS>  RS> So you do admit that the laws of Leviticus have not been removed
JS>  RS> from operation, now?  You were stating how they had been replaced

JS>  Fulfilled.

Replaced.  It was a bug fix.  You claim so in the previous
message.  Jesus, you claim, in Mat 13 has overriden many clearly
and strictly condemnatory clauses of the Old Law in Lev 20.

In fact, you have claimed that Matthew 13 allows you to DEFY your
God's commandment in Leviticus 20!  Sounds like a bug-fix to me!

JS>  RS> -- which I find contradictory to your statement that his laws do
JS>  RS> *NOT* change.  You've stated that they do change also.

JS>  They don't.

But you have given a claim yourself that there has been a law
change -- a supercedence -- in the post prior to this one.  Are
you now claiming that there has been no supercedence?

JS> JS>  RS> Or is this an incovenience to your obvious breaking of Levitical
JS> JS>  RS> law that you put down to being as "unimportant"?

JS> JS>  Not at all.

JS>  RS> So you're a salad-bar Christian?  A "choose-your-own-salvation"
JS>  RS> Christian?

JS>  Not at all.

You are using Matthew 13 in the post immediately prior to this
one to "pick-and-choose" not to follow the strict commandment to
put people to death as commanded in Leviticus 20.

You have chosen not to follow Leviticus 20.  You twist scripture
to suit your "pick-and-choose" Christianity.  Your God hates such
manipulation of his word, does he not?

Are you one of the false prophets who would claim to represent
him, but actually do not?

You need salvation from Satan, Jim, who guides you.  :)

JS>  RS> Rod "...tell us, Jim, what bits of the bible don't you believe
in
JS>  RS> because they are *inconvenient*..." Swift :)

JS>  I believe every word in the Bible to be the true, inspired Word of
God.

Except the bits that you don't like, which you conveeeeeniently
pick-and-choose from, eh?

Rod "...or are you going to carry out the commandment in
Leviticus 20 to kill?" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Satanic: Anything a fundie Christian doesn't like

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Ask And Ye Shant Receive
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:42:16
EID:0ebe 22455d40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f80198
* On 22-01-97 at 13:29, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ask And Ye Shant Receive" in echo Holysmoke:

JS> On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to David Rice...

JS>  RS> I've never sinned either, David.  Sin only comes if you believe
JS>  RS> in the concept, which I'm sure you and I do not. :)

JS> Continue to delude yourself, Rod. The Truth will out.

Please provide evidence of these "sins" that you claim.  Note, to
construct "sin" you must construct the deity-construct and prove
the deity-construct is the one true deity-construct and that the
deity-construct is completely proven...

Rod "...I know you will not be able to achieve this, because you
are a puny and weak human..." Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Death is life's answer to the question "Why?"

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Staal wants to know.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:44:18
EID:c082 22455d80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f80212
* On 22-01-97 at 13:31, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Staal wants to know." in echo Holysmoke:

JS> MG> Does anyone outside of Jim Staal actually believe that
JS> MG> Leipzig set his dog on a the pizza delivery boy just to get
JS> MG> out of paying for the things?

JS>  RS> No.  I don't.

JS> Why not? You believe every lie Satan puts in your mind...
---------------------------------

Wow!  Look everyone.  George Mooth's mental disease has spread.
Now Jim is saying everyone and everything is Say-tan-hic! :)

Rod "...ahahahahahah.  It's the last refuge of those who are
losing the grounding of their faith -- that Satan is stealing
everyone and everything from around them!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Pro-life?  Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Mario Gonzalez
|Sub:  HELL-o, a MUST READ post
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:46:20
EID:5bc0 22455dc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f8028c
* On 24-01-97 at 03:36, MARIO GONZALEZ wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "HELL-o, a MUST READ post" in echo Holysmoke:

MG>  RS> It may take some getting used to, but Kleberg County
MG>  RS> commissioners have thrown their support behind a local man's
MG>  RS> campaign to take the "hell" out of hello.
MG>  RS> "I feel we have made history here in Kleberg County and set
MG>  RS> a new precedent," he said.
MG>  RS> The judge said he was not yet accustomed to the new
MG>  RS> greeting, but that he was trying, awkwardly, to use it.
MG>  RS> "Heaven-o, sir. Adios," he said at the end of the interview.

MG>         Why stop here, let's see:
MG>         Heaven-copter
MG>         Heaven-n instead of hellen
MG>         Heaven-met for soldier's heads
MG>         Heaven-p if you need assistance
MG>         Heaven-ium to inflate baloons.

MG>         Christians are a riot!;)

Yes.  Their mental deficiencies are so fun to watch.  Even more
funny when they get involved in politics and do obviously stupid
things like this.

I wonder how many people who are Christian are embarrassed by
this buffoon and what he does to the name of Christians :)

Rod "...maybe some Christians around here can tell us how
embarrassed they are because of the damage done to their faith" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Dogs crawl under gates, software crawls under Windows

--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Ken Young
|Sub:  HELL-o, a MUST READ post
|Date: 05 Feb 97  11:57:22
EID:3b21 22455f20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f80522
* On 24-01-97 at 23:52, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "HELL-o, a MUST READ post" in echo Holysmoke:

KY>  RS> Are the religious nut-cases getting worse or what???  Maybe we
KY>  RS> should pick Kingsville TX as our Holysmoke Convention site, and
KY>  RS> have tee-shirts saying "HELL-o" for the con! :)

KY> I agree it is ridiculous, but Leonoso Canales, the guy that
KY> came up with the idea doesn't even claim to be a
KY> Christian.. He has said he isn't all that religious, but is
KY> doing it because churches generally make Hell into such a
KY> negative word.

But HELL and HELLO are two different words.  They have different
constructions and word origins.

Or are you saying sHELLs are Satanic too?

KY>  RS>         he said.

KY>  RS>            The commissioners gave Canales their support because
KY>  RS>         "he's a local guy," but their vote "has nothing to do with

KY> This part right here is more ridiclous than even the action
KY> itself, IMO..  You are for something because you think it
KY> is a good idea, not because you like the guy that came up
KY> with the idea, or because he is a local..

KY>  RS>         anything pious," De La Garza said.

KY>  RS>            Canales believes his campaign will gain momentum now
KY>  RS>         that it has the weight of officialdom behind it. He now
plans
KY>  RS>         to go to Texas Gov. George W. Bush to propose heaven-o
as the
KY>  RS>         state's official greeting.

KY> I had not heard this part.. True, it is only a resolution,
KY> but I don't like the trend it could start..  Fortunately,
KY> it is so ridiculous, it probably couldn't happen state
KY> wide..

Yeah :)  That's the funny thing.  Though it is Texas :)

Rod "...if they had such a problem with hello, why don't they opt
for existing greetings like good morning/afternoon/evening" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Without fools there would be no wisdom

--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:03:24
EID:1f9c 22456060
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f8068c
* On 24-01-97 at 20:31, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "My Summer Weekend" in echo Holysmoke:

KW> RS>KW> SM>Either recognize _at least_ the gay marriages, or
KW> RS>KW> SM>ABANDON THE WHOLE BUSINESS ALTOGETHER.
KW> RS>KW> SM>Relationship regulation is NOT where the State power belongs.

KW> RS>KW> I would rather they abandon the whole business, or at the very
most,
KW> RS>KW> only treat 'marriage' as a form of personal contract.

KW> RS>Uh, the only side of marriage that the government deals with is
KW> RS>the civil contracting thereof.  I think you're arguing for the
KW> RS>status-quo :)  Of course, the status-quo does not allow such a
KW> RS>civil contract to have members of the same-sex :)

KW> To a certain extent, yes.  Where I'm arguing against the status quo
is
KW> int those areas where the assorted forms of religion have influenced
the
KW> legal set up as to exclude variations of that social contract.  I don't
KW> see it as the governments business to regulate who or how many I should
KW> contract marriage too unless I should start breaking those contracts.
KW> And then it should be a matter of civil rather than criminal law.

However, the unfortunate thing is that government still regulates
and apportions rights based on marital status.

Since this system is not likely to change, if government does
apprtion rights it should do so fairly and justly.

While I agree with your viewpoint and tend to share it, I also
realise that it is idealistic and can never really be implemented
until the current benefits of marriage are removed from the
exclusive status of being applied to married people, and equalised.

KW> RS>KW> Let the churches make any and all rules for their followers that
they
KW> RS>KW> want--that should have nothing to do with the legal side of it.

KW> RS>This is also the status quo.  Remember that marriage is a civil
KW> RS>contract, and weddings are the ceremonial side of things.

KW>   And churches should have the right to make any and all rules
KW> concerning the extension of their sacraments, including matrimony. 
If a
KW> particular person can't live with the churches rules, they can just
KW> leave that church.

That's right.  But it's a tangential problem compared with civil
marriage.  Of course, the current religious political extremists
would *like* to meddle the quest for equal marriage rights with
claims like: "But if we allow gay people to civilly marry, they
will demand we perform *weddings* for them."

Of course, as private organisations, they are not compelled to.
But of course, it's got political mileage to claim that they will
be compelled and hence must oppose equality... :)

KW> RS>KW> The trick would be getting Congress to obey laws period.

KW> RS>I had an interesting idea for this, which I'll be posting as
KW> RS>soon as I compose a coherent and interesting post for it :)
KW> RS>That is, a post on how to make Congress start to think about
KW> RS>passing constitutional (rather than self-serving) laws :)

KW> RS>And, of course, saving US taxpayer dollars by not having to
KW> RS>defend actions against constitutional challenges :)

KW> It would be nice, but I don't see this as anything I'll see in my
KW> lifetime.

As long as a grass-roots movement to bring constitutionality of
laws into view -- and of course the benefits by having better,
less-intrusive, and clearly lawful laws -- may be achievable.
Just look how quick the balanced-budget ideology entered the fray

Rod "...it's possible" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * The *Constitution* is the Contract with America!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Your mythology!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:05:26
EID:03d1 224560a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f80706
* On 24-01-97 at 20:31, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Your mythology!" in echo Holysmoke:

KW> RS>KW> RS>KW>  * OLXWin 1.00a * Why don't they have MOUSE flavored catfood?

KW> RS>KW> RS>A quarter-million pensioners can't be wrong -- they don't
like
KW> RS>KW> RS>the taste :)

KW> RS>KW> They prefer fresh grilled rat?

KW> RS>Actually, pensioners prefer dog food to cat food :)

KW> You have data to back that up? ;)  Oh, did you see the item in the news
KW> about the Canadian company that was exporting defective catfood
KW> relabeled as tuna for human consumption?

I saw that story, but it's been shown that some pensioners, to
survive, will buy dog and cat food to eat, because it's cheaper.
There is data here in Australia to support the notion, and I can
remember there was a citation of a US study of the homeless.

Rod "...I'll see what I can dig up from the net, which is where I
saw both..." Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * The *Constitution* is the Contract with America!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Bill Wolff
|Sub:  Hateful Bill Wolf!
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:06:28
EID:fddf 224560c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f80744
* On 24-01-97 at 09:26, BILL WOLFF wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "HATEFUL BILL WOLF!" in echo Holysmoke:

BW>  RS> Such a loving display of Christianity.
BW>  RS> "By their fruits ye shall know them.

BW>  RS> See you in hell!

BW> Okay... last one there brings the ice cold water.  >;->

BW> On a more serious note. There isn't a real hell anyway.

Ooooh... You're a CATHOLIC...  Purgatory-construct, eh?

Rod "...hehehe :)" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Necrotelecomnicon: Book of dead phone numbers

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Peculiar State of Mind.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:08:30
EID:3eb1 22456100
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f807be
* On 22-01-97 at 13:27, JIM STAAL wrote to LAURIE APPLETON,
on the topic of "Peculiar State of Mind." in echo Holysmoke:

JS> BTW, Laurie, can you imagine the impudence of Rod Swift masquerading
as
JS> you and then directing me to a web site showing him smooching on his
JS> boyfriend!?

So you do admit that you were suckered in? :) :)

And no, there were no such pictures at:
http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~rod/chrisrod/

But hey, you were suckered in reeeeeal good :)  *slurpslurpslurp*
Sucker!  :) :) :) :)

Rod "...if you want to see the smooochey pics, check out
ftp://ftp.omen.com.au/pub/ugly_mugs/ directory" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Famous graffitti: I used to be indecisive; am I sure?

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Fat People
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:10:32
EID:32c4 22456140
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f80838
* On 23-01-97 at 15:15, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to DAN CEPPA,
on the topic of "FAT PEOPLE" in echo Holysmoke:

KW> DC>Just what is a "Steingrobe"?  Seen his name bandied about here,
KW> DC>but never ran into him on the Echoes.

KW> A "Steingrobe'", also known as a "Steiny", is a hapless, bumbling, but
KW> explosive xtain type fundy.  He's known best for taking sudden right
KW> turns in religious hysteria, and getting himself backed into impossibly
KW> prickly corners.  At the moment he can't quite make up his mind wither
KW> he wants to play footsies with Rod Swift, or beg Lynda to tie him up
and
KW> paddle his naughty little rump until it's pink and glowing.

Oh, I think it is both, Katherine :) :)  I've had run-ins with
him on Usenet Newsfroups.  He's so fun!  Especially when he turns
into 100% crackpot mode :)

KW> DC>My guess is that he's a ping-pong ball attempting to play on
KW> DC>a tennis court.

KW> Well, for some reason he finds my web page 'frightening'.   Yes,
he's
KW> a lightweight.

Oh, I think he makes people think that.  Then he plays heavy
until he realises he's made himself look like a fool.  Then he
takes a powder.

Rod "... that is, standard right-wing Christian operating
procedure" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Rap is to music what Etch-a-Sketch is to art

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Irc Log Fun!          1/
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:11:34
EID:9748 22456160
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f80876
* On 25-01-97 at 03:14, DAN CEPPA wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "Irc Log Fun!" in echo Holysmoke:

DC> -> On 22 Jan 97  08:07:00, Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift

DC>  JS> Yeah...I'm still laughing. So what was your point?

DC> The one on top of your head, Jimbo.

Hahahahaha :)  To think, Dan, that he actually thought I was
Laurie Appleton, then he believed that Laurie was hencely gay,
and that we had a pic archive! :)

Rod "...someone get a dunce cap for his pointy head!" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Yogi Bear was a nudist buddhist

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Peculiar State of Mind.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:12:36
EID:9094 22456180
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f808b4
* On 25-01-97 at 03:26, DAN CEPPA wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "Peculiar State of Mind." in echo Holysmoke:

DC>  JS> BTW, Laurie, can you imagine the impudence of Rod Swift masquerading
DC>  JS> as you and then directing me to a web site showing him smooching
on his
DC>  JS> boyfriend!?

DC> Must of made you very jealous, Staaled.

It probably gave him a boner.  "Oh, wilbuuuurrrrr!"

Rod "...you can lead a horse to a website, but you can't make him
look at the porn" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * He's your God, they're your rules, YOU burn in hell!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Staal wants to know.
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:13:38
EID:8eb7 224561a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f808f2
* On 25-01-97 at 03:32, DAN CEPPA wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "Staal wants to know." in echo Holysmoke:

DC> -> On 22 Jan 97  08:31:02, Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift

DC>  JS> Why not? You believe every lie Satan puts in your mind...

DC> You're lucky, Jimbo.  You don't have one of them for Satan
DC> do put anything into.

Ping ping ping ping.  Woogy woogy woogy.

STAAL.SYS corrupted, lobotomise? (Y/N)

100000% on the mark, God Dan.

Rod "...you wicked ol' deity you" Swift :)

* OLX 2.1 TD * Dyslexic agnostics don't know whether there is a dog!

--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/5050 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1
SEEN-BY: 2401/0 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rod Swift
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  Educational Experience
|Date: 05 Feb 97  12:14:40
EID:33f6 224561c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32f80930
* On 22-01-97 at 13:31, JI