God Damned Fundies!
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Pedophile Christian cooks / NAMBLA
|Date: 10 Feb 97 13:18:39
EID:2504 224a6a40
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 401010f9
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 a89b9a89
On (09 Feb 97) Marilyn Burge wrote to Dave Hamilton...
MB> On (05 Feb 97) Dave Hamilton babbled to Jim Staal...
DH> I personally don't accept claims that either home schooling
DH> or parochial schooling comes even close to matching the
DH> standards of the pathetic public systems. If you have any
DH> evidence to the contrary, I'll be happy to hear it.
MB> I can't speak for CRC schools, but my fundy friend went to
MB> Seventh- day Adventist schools through college. We then went on to
MB> graduate school and received a Ph.D., as did his three brothers.
MB> Three of them are attorneys who passed the bar exam on the first
MB> try, and three of them are electrical engineers who specialize in
MB> Intellectual Property law. The Fourth Ph.D. is in electrical
MB> engineering.
MB> Apparently, judging from this one isolated case, SDA schools are
MB> better than the average parochial school, if what you say is
MB> really true. I think that a disproportionate number of kids from
MB> Catholic schools also finish college, but I may be mistaken in
MB> that.
While SDA and Catholics are parochial schools, the CRC schools are not.
They are private Christian schools _not_ owned by the church, but rather
by the parents.
MB> I suspect part of the reason why kids who go to parochial schools
MB> do so well is that their parents have to make sacrifices in order
MB> for them to attend. Given that, they are more inclined to see to
MB> it that the kid buckles down and learns something to justify that
MB> added family expense. Also, the fact that the parents are willing
MB> to put out money for the kids' educations right from the get-go
MB> tells us that the parents place a high value on education, which
MB> is known to help kids in their attitude toward school and
MB> learning. That is also the suspected reason why people of oriental
MB> extraction do so much better in school that kids of european
MB> descent: the parents value education and insist the kid take
MB> school very, very seriously.
You have a very viable point here as well as a very astute observation.
MB> Of course, another reason why parochial school kids do so well is
MB> because the parochial school have the luxury of picking and
MB> choosing what kids will attend, which automatically eliminates
MB> those kids who would be a problem to them, such as kids who need
MB> special education, kids from gangs, etc.
Not so with our schools. If a parent agrees to a statement of faith and
has ability to provide the tuition, the student is in. They do have the
ability, of course, to expell those proving themselves incorrigeable
(as do the public schools)
... I want to take the Crash Course In Brain Surgery...
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ...
|Date: 09 Feb 97 16:19:00
EID:5992 22498260
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Roger Hunter <=-
LB> ROTFL!
LB> Well, you could try exposing me now, but one of us would likely just
LB> get arrested. ;)
Ooooo..... Can I have the video rights?
... "Milhouse, we live in the age of cooties!" - Bart Simpson
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: NATIVE AMERICANS
|Date: 09 Feb 97 16:22:00
EID:6aab 224982c0
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Roger Hunter <=-
DM> Pay attention, Rog. No matter _what_ the topic, I
DM> reserve the right to make observations, the relevance of
DM> which may escape the humour-impaired.
Oh, is THAT what it was? If that's the case, then run down
to the School for Comedy and take a few remedial courses.
... There is intelligent life on Earth, but I'm just visiting.
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 09 Feb 97 16:24:00
EID:9b96 22498300
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> I suspect it will be his willingness to post here.
DM> Nothing has ever diminshed that in the past. I suspect
DM> that in his case, denial simply means that he dances and
DM> types faster.
To my regret, my prediction was right on. He will no longer
be with us. But not for the reason I proposed.
... The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics!
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: OF THREATS OF HELL...
|Date: 09 Feb 97 16:29:00
EID:00b7 224983a0
-=> Quoting Ronald Vass to Roger Hunter <=-
RV> You gave the example when the bridge between the brains is cut and how
RV> the right/left brain could no longer connect the picture with the
RV> name. So how come, if there was a soul connect the brain also.
RV> Ie: in other words, where is the soul ?
Exactly my point, and he acknowledged it as unanswerable. But
he backs away from the implication and looks for any concievable
way to rationalize it.
RV> It would help Al's case if he would ever get off his ass and give some
RV> real evidence for this god, soul,flying dead bodies, floating axe
RV> heads and shit like that. Shit, time and time again it been showen his
RV> book is incorrect, and time and time again, Al has been showen he is
How? There isn't any.
... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at Ronald" ... Zzzzzap!
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BABY IN CRITICAL COND
|Date: 09 Feb 97 16:34:00
EID:c975 22498440
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Roger Hunter <=-
MB> From his point of view, of course, you're right. From the point of
MB> view of this old Secular Humanist, I have a hard time seeing any
MB> compassion in it.
Yes. I argue from his position to show the illogic of it, the
paradoxes that are created.
MB> Where the rubber meets the road, Al does too, else he wouldn't be
MB> so quick to tell us that he abvolutely refuses to kill his
MB> children.
Yep. It takes an absolute fanatic to carry religion to its'
logical conclusion. And Al has never impressed me as such
a one. He talks the talk, but he'll only walk the walk so far.
If he'd only follow the truth, he'd come back to OUR fold!
... Tag line thievery ... On the next Geraldo!
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: HYPOCRITICAL PEOPLE
|Date: 09 Feb 97 17:56:00
EID:07db 22498f00
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Ronald Vass <=-
MB> than serious flawed. How does using a larger percentage of the
MB> available lexicon make a person LESS educated and LESS articulate?
MB> It seems to me that the SMALLER the portion of our lexicon that is
MB> used, the SMALLER the vocabulary. Or is this whole thing just more
MB> of the fundythink that has so completely pervaded our culture?
Evidently you do not watch much daytime talk-show television.
Since retiring, I have had the misfortune to do so, and I can
assure you that the typical guest has about a 20 word vocabulary
and half of those are profane.
I will not mention that the typical guest is black, for PC sake.
Nor do you need to call me racist for merely reporting the facts.
... Blind people don't bungee jump; it scares the dog too much.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: HATEFUL BILL WOLF!
|Date: 10 Feb 97 17:13:57
EID:15ec 224a89a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff5755
-> On 08 Feb 97 03:51:01, Bill Wolff got back to Rod Swift
BW> Hardly... I'm a Saganist.
Not even close. You are a Lying Asshole at best.
... Next time, it will be 100 rounds of 30mm depleted uranium.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Sex at Dragon festival (d
|Date: 10 Feb 97 17:29:52
EID:5b55 224a8ba0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff5b10
-> On 08 Feb 97 13:22:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Marty Leipzig
ML> KW> Ah, yes, the Airport Inn bar during a baptist convention...
ML> Where there's four Baptists, there's a always a fifth.
KW> Ugh! They hunt in packs.
Only if there are six of them.
... "Oh, bother", said Pooh as he set his laser designators on the church.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 10 Feb 97 20:48:15
EID:d0fa 224aa600
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff898f
-> On 08 Feb 97 23:16:40, Mark O'Neill got back to Dan Ceppa
KY>> I will answer that, as soon as you can prove to me that God has ever
KY>> given leukemia to anyone..
DC> According to your mythos, your god created everything. Therefore,
MO> Yeah, but they're guilty. Of what though remains to be seen. I HAVE
MO> IT! I bet the kids would have grown up to atheists/free thinkers.
Which is the worst thing that can happen to any mythical god, for sure.
... "Stand beside her & guide through the night with a light from a bulb."
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Idiocy
|Date: 10 Feb 97 20:50:44
EID:b7ff 224aa640
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff8a24
-> On 09 Feb 97 13:26:00, Mark Kimes got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Now, he's going to give you an English lesson.
> "lackluster" didn't you? I understand why. The word "droll" sounds
> like "dull". You may choose to reply, "I meant to say that!" in Pee
DC> Oddly amusing little fellow, isn't he.
MK> Quite whimsical little troll, for sure. :-)
Musical, no doubt too, as he attempts to whistle his way past
the graveyard.
... I had proof of the existence of God, but my cat ate it.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: most Xians only "iffy"
|Date: 10 Feb 97 20:53:52
EID:d9c1 224aa6a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff8ae0
-> On 09 Feb 97 10:42:46, Marilyn Burge got back to Ken Young
MB> Anglicans/Episcopaleans, many of whom regard themselves as Reformed
MB> Catholics, the disparity in numbers is even larger.
Strange term there, Marilyn:
reùform
verb reùformed; reùformed; reùformùing; reùforms
: make or become better especially by
correcting bad habits
Especially as that's what I consider myself to be by being
an EX-Catholic!
... No way they (Biblical authors) were mere, common, "idiots." - Halfwitt
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: NAKED PAGAN RITUALS
|Date: 10 Feb 97 20:56:23
EID:109e 224aa700
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff8b77
-> On 09 Feb 97 01:35:34, David Worrell got back to Roger Hunter
KY>> to Heaven anyway.. But then, you probably would like open season
KY>> on Christians..
RH> Do I need a special license?
DW> Yep. And there's a bag limit, too. It's done with IQ points. You've
DW> got to keep track of the IQ of each Christian you kill. When the total
You realize, of course, if you score a Staal it has to add to
your current year's limit!
... "I am a Lump, 'cause Unky Staal says I am. Got pictures to prove it!"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ...
|Date: 10 Feb 97 21:01:17
EID:5457 224aa820
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff8c9d
-> On 08 Feb 97 05:00:25, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
DR> I long for the return of the days when there were women (and
DR> children for that matter) with an air of innocence about them.
MB> This is all just sour grapes on your part. You suddenly realize
MB> that you're not a Real True Man , because you respect and
That's not true, Marilyn, as I am a god. And, like most god's,
I expect my followers to carry out the Roto-rootering and keep
my hands clean. However, in his case, I really would not object
to baking him an extra-special pie! :)
MB> I don't think it's necessary. He's about to shit himself to
MB> death with no help from anybody.
He is doing a good job of stinking up the Echo, isn't he.
... "A negative endorsement from Satan beats a positive one from God." MB
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Goof^3
|Date: 10 Feb 97 21:06:09
EID:5dd8 224aa8c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff8dc1
-> On 04 Feb 97 12:21:17, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
PD> It seems that you're not prepared to wait for a response from me and
PD> would rather debate some imaginary viewpoint of where I'm coming from
DM> Naughty, naughty, God Dan! Not waiting for pearls of
DM> wisdom to drop from his keyboard before living your own
DM> life?
I'd only have to clean the mess up if I did. Do you know what
it costs the get that smell out of the carpets?
DM> No _wonder_ the teenage pregnancy rate is up in this
DM> country!
Don't look at me! I've been busy with picking on the poor fundys.
PD> what you will. I could care a lot more.
DM> But isn't it wonderful? You have his permission to
DM> proceed. What joy!
See, it worked out, just as planned by the Illuminati.
DM> Weren't you the one complaining about a shortage of
DM> fundies a bit ago?
I think it was Ed Mills. He even was going to re-join as
a fundy. Too bad he didn't do that after his 2 month
sojourn without a HS feed. Could have been interesting!
... My name is Inigo Montoya...You stole my tagline...Prepare to die. ___
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [2/2] He Come de Judge
|Date: 10 Feb 97 21:13:48
EID:7294 224aa9a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff8f8c
-> On 25 Jan 97 10:33:00, Lynda Bustilloz got back to Al Schroeder
LB> Think about something Al. If the barbarians were responsible for the
LB> Dark Ages as nonchristians, WHY didn't they wipe out Christianity? Why
LB> WASN'T their form of worship the way it was for the next 1000 years?
Thank you for the treatise, Lynda. And especially your closing
point.
Duly saved!
... God's free gifts just plain cost too much.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: "flat earth" town
|Date: 10 Feb 97 21:24:04
EID:2453 224aab00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ff91f4
-> On 02 Feb 97 09:08:01, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
DM> Make me God of your school district, let me administer one of my
DC> OK, you're god!
DM> Shit. Do I have to get fundies now?
Only if you are a really, really bad god!
DM> no. One merely threatens to publish the paper where the students
DC> I like that idea. Now to see if I can get to a school board
DM> Be careful to stipulate up front that this exam is for the
DM> public record and that the results may be published unedited. The
Even better!
DM> hour). They may use dictionaries, thesauruses, etc., but not
DM> textbooks.
I would prefer to see none of those type of reference works
being allowed.
DM> teaches American history, say, give him things that anyone who
DM> presumes to know American history ought to be able to talk about off
DM> Notice, that there is no "right" answer to this. A number of
More like a debate. I remember a time I was in Jr high and
had to pick what was the decided "bad" side of the debate.
Though the team I was on protested, we had to do it anyway.
Yep, once we got into it and gathered the facts that we
needed, we won. The other team didn't do a bit of homework
on it and was soundly defeated.
DM> this sort of thing all the time. Surely a professional charged with
DM> the education of the young ought to be able to manage it.
What would you recommend for a more esoteric subject, like
mathematics? I can see good scenarious for the other sciences,
but I'm hard pressed for one on that.
... "Bother," said Pooh as he took aim from behind the grassy knoll.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Frederic Rice
|Sub: It'll be apparent
|Date: 10 Feb 97 22:46:19
EID:fc1b 224ab5c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32ffa53b
A local radio station does a Mystery Quize and gives clues to
get you to the answer.
Today's quize's premise was:
"What's hiding behin the apron of the Frugal Gourmet!"
... "Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he bulldozed the virgin growth forest.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: ...
|Date: 10 Feb 97 14:27:00
EID:2b65 224a7360
Richard and Ken were killing time yakking about ...:
RS> You mean you don't know? LOL . . .
ky> Why do you think he was tried and sentenced?
RS> I don't think he was tried and sentenced. I don't think he
RS> existed at all.
KY> Now, we can argue about whether or not something of the supernatural
KY> exists, but even history will agree with me that Jesus was a real
KY> person.
(G) Will it now?
What do you have to offer outside of your scriptures to back that up?
RS> BTW, answering a question with a question in order to not
RS> answer the original question is step four in the Fundy
RS> Shuffle. Did you realize that you were dancing?
KY> Yeah, but I thought it was the Macarena.. :)
Understandable confusion...they are similar.
KY> So, Einstein.. What is step five?
That's when you suddenly remember that your hard drive died, and you're
too
busy anyway what with taking care of your Great Aunt Alice, so as much as
you'd LOVE to stay, you can't.
Advanced dancers throw in a long tortured goodbye speech on their way out,
calling on all their christian cohorts to shun this echo for the good of
the
Universe, preferring to dance out in a bunny hop chain instead of alone.
RS> The ALLEDGED ressurection. Got any non-Biblical evidence
RS> for it, Ken?
KY> Does that pesky stone that somehow moved by itself, ring a bell? :)
Sure, the same bell that that pandora's box, the yellow brick road, and
Jack's
beanstalk does.
Now try again to answer his question....got any NONbiblical evidence for
it?
Or DO you believe in the Yellow Brick Road based on the fact that the Wizard
of Oz mentions it?
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ It's not the fall that injures, it's the sudden stop.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: A baby + God = Hell
|Date: 10 Feb 97 14:28:00
EID:154c 224a7380
Jan and Ken were killing time yakking about A baby + God = Hell:
Jd> But, Ken.....newborns SPEAKING LIES fresh outta the womb? Just SPEAKING
Jd> would be miraculous........and your evidence for this is?
KY> It doesn't have to be verbally.
How does a newborn baby lie NONverbally? Example, please?
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ He's as innocent as a newBorg baby.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 10 Feb 97 14:28:00
EID:60ef 224a7380
Roger and Ken were killing time yakking about CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT:
RH> Let me clue you in, fundy. No one has a right to an opinion where
RH> facts are concerned. It is not intolerance to call an idiot an
RH> idiot. It is a simple statement of fact.
KY> But what facts are concerned? Prove with facts that Christians are
KY> wrong. Prove Creationism wrong. Prove miracles wrong. Prove that
KY> there is no God. Can't do it, so there are no facts, in your little,
KY> "I don't believe it so it must be wrong," world.
KY> And even if one THINKS they know something for a fact, it is in fact
KY> closeminded to refuse to at least listen for himself to see if the
KY> possibility could be ther [):?eCW)C| :(x`
I think typing in tongues is going a bit far to attempt to make your point,
Jelly.
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ "How'd ya make out?"- Gangster; "Used my tongue."- Crow
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 10 Feb 97 14:28:00
EID:7320 224a7380
David and Ken were killing time yakking about Cracker Barrel boycott:
DW>> Imagine that you're watching the news one day and learn
DW>> that I have been out torturing, raping, and murdering
DW>> in your name. Would you not do your best to let it be
DW>> known that you support none of those actions?
KY> Perhaps not.. If I did, that would just be making it even bigger..
DW> I see. You don't mind people thinking of you as someone
DW> who would be in favor of such things.
KY> I would like to think I wouldn't care. What does it matter what
KY> others think of me? All I can do is do the best to walk my walk, and
KY> people can think what they want.
And it IS 'walking your walk' to not care that someone is victimizing people
as your representative. That APATHY defines your breed of christianity,
that
is more interested in alibi-ism and loopholes than in whether anyone is
being
hurt by it.
Instead of worrying about 'making it bigger' - and its plain you mean your
being attached to it, NOT the victimization itself - why not work to reduce
the victimization itself?
DW> The Klan is just as Christian as you are, bozo.
KY> When one goes against basic beliefs of Christianity, they are not a
KY> Christian.
There are as many definitions for 'basic beliefs of christianity' as there
are christians to cite them.
I assume compassion for victims is not on your list.
... "You appear to be upset because you're stupid and others aren't" FRice
---
* TLX v4.10 *
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: most Xians only "iffy"
|Date: 10 Feb 97 14:16:00
EID:a9de 224a7200
Sally and Ken were killing time yakking about most Xians only "iffy":
KY> WHat's this? The majority?!? Where do you come up with this
KY> stuff, anyway? I believe the majority of people with Judeo
KY> Christian beliefs consider themselves Protestants.
SS> Except for the Catholics, of course.
KY> I said the MAJORITY of Christians.
KY> Of course, I have been told even by some Catholics, that they are not
KY> Christians.
No you haven't! Some EX Catholics who've converted to your denomination
and
agree with the absurdity that there is a difference between catholicism
and
christianity, perhaps. Some who are a-religious but were raised catholic,
maybe. But no active catholic is going to tell you that they are not christian.
The the majority of those with "Judeo Christian beliefs", world wide are
on
the CATHOLIC side of the theological fence, not the protestant side.
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ I'm not a minority. I'm an outnumbered majority!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: Fundies
|Date: 09 Feb 97 08:27:00
EID:2351 22494360
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32FE9B7D
DR>PB>... Jesus Christ: Imaginary Playmate to Millions of Adults!
DR>Yet another gift aphorism from the worshipers of Darwin. I am truly
blessed
DR>
Here's some more blesssing with the truth of GOD.
1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted
o
ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern
for
psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more
often
worse than those who walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual
and intellectual development," has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical,
mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept
it i
business all these years!
* SLMR 2.1a * ** In Waking A Tiger Or A Peake, Use A Long Stick **
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical.Virgins are. (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: Wonder Woman Comics win
|Date: 09 Feb 97 08:49:00
EID:4d4d 22494620
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32FE9B7E
DR>MK> It's your claim, and your job to provide such evidence to back up
the
DR>MK> claim. Hop to it, don't just talk about it.
DR>Ok, boing~boing~boing~boing~boing~boing~boing look at this. ===> The
Bible
DR>Care to examine it. Care to prove it wrong? Let's hop to that.
Here's some another poster ask.
>*< /file/bookoflies
Date: 03-30-96 (04:14)
From: ELLIOTT FINESSE
To: ALL
Subj: More Bible Errors
-
The Biblical errors and contradictions I see mentioned here are getting
a
little worn out. So I thought I'd offer up a few "new" ones. These, of
course don't begin to exhaust the list:
Why would a perfect garden (Eden) require tending and cultivation? (Gen.
3:15)
Gen. 2:17 says Adam or would die the day he ate the fruit. Adam lived for
930 years (Gen. 5:5).
God tells Cain he will be a vagrant and a wanderer (Gen. 4:12). Yet Cain
settled down and founded a city (Gen. 4:16-17).
Abraham took Keturah for a wife (Gen. 25:1). Later we are told Keturah
was only a concubine (1 Chron. 1:32).
Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son (according to Gen. 22:2 & Heb.
11:17). Gen. 16:16 and Gal. 4:22 says he also had a son Ishmael.
God promised Abraham the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession.
(Gen. 17:8). Yet he got nothing he was promised (Acts 7:5, Heb. 11:9-13).
Many places in the Bible say that all have sinned (I Kings 8:46, 2 Chron
6:36, Proverbs 20:9, etc etc). Yet according to Gen. 6:29 and 7:1 Noah was
righteous and blameless, as were Job (Job 1:1, 1:8, 2:3), Zacharias, and
Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6).
Joshua 19:2-6 reports Simeon as inheriting "13" cities (and their
villages) and names them - all 14.
Apparently Joshua can't count since he does the same thing in naming the
"14" cities of the lowland Judah - and lists 15. (Joshua 15:33-36)
Job 21:7-9 says the wicked live long. Psalms 55:23 & Proverbs 10:27 say
the wicked die young.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 says God deceives unbelievers to make them believe
falsehoods (even thought God supposedly hates lying - Proverbs 12:22). 1
Tim. 2:3-4 says God wants all to know the truth.
Isaiah 17:1 prophesied that Damascus "is about to be removed as a city,
and it will become a fallen ruin." Today, as one of the oldest cities in
the world, Damascus is the ONLY city in Palestine that has never been
destroyed.
Ezekiel prophesied that Egypt will be laid to waste, its cities
uninhabited for 40 years. (Ez. 29:9-12) Never happened.
Jesus's final words are different in three of the four Gospels, Matthew,
and Mark being the only accounts that agree with each other. (Matt. 27:46,
Mark 15:34, Luke 23:46, John 19:30)
Jesus says "and if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she
commits adultery." (Mark 10:12) Women of that time and place had NO right
or ability to divorce their husbands.
The KJV says: "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the SON OF MAN, in
whom there is no help" (Psalms 146:3, emphasis added). Other versions of
the Bible often try to alter this passage.
>*<
The Book of Lies that many Christians follow to boost their faith, is
full of such items.
* SLMR 2.1a * Isaiah 45:7. God says that he created evil.-PS
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical.Virgins are. (1:221/1503)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 10 Feb 97 18:58:02
EID:61d9 224a9740
MSGID: 1:3603/210 309da5f7
TID: GE/2 1.2
KY> I am against homosexuality.
Why? Just another religious bigot, eh?
KY> ANd the difference is a black person cannot decide the
KY> color of their skin, while gays do choose their sexual
KY> orientation.
It seems rather doubtful that people consciously choose their
sexual orientation. Did YOU make such a choice, Ken? Was it really
a matter for you that required some conscious decision regarding
to whom you would feel sexually attracted?
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: THX-1138 and Louis Wu
|Date: 10 Feb 97 21:24:40
EID:ab9b 224aab00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Richard = Smith THEN Damien Wellman ELSE THX-1138 and Louis Wu
DW> Actually, there is more than one novel that has devices of this
DW> type, while I don't know if it came before or after Ringworld,
DW> Spider Robinson's "Mindkiller" comes to mind, as does the short
DW> story it was based on, "God Is An Iron".
RS> I know. I was just correcting Fredric's reference to Niven,
RS> though. Niven used to be a favorite of mine, and I _had_ to
RS> set the record straight.
Yah, I like Niven too, when I can find any of his books.
... "Scientists aren't sure what this represents..." -- Mike Nelson
---
* TLX v4.00 *Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 10 Feb 97 21:24:41
EID:b395 224aab00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Ronald = Vass THEN Damien Wellman ELSE native americans
DW> True. You only need fire if you want the spear to have a metal head
or
DW> shaft.
RV> Just what is expected from a West Virginia.
West Virginian.
RV> Fire is used to harden a wooden spear point. I know, I know. Your rich
Your should be you are, or you're.
RV> and pay those folks down south to toss your spears . What can we say,
RV> W.V.'s don't know which end to hold.
Pht! I scoff at spears. I scoff in your general direction! Scoff! Scoff!
Scoff! :-)
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ "If we offend, it is with our goodwill." -- Shakespeare
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: QUENTIN FAI
|Sub: Anthropic asininities
|Date: 10 Feb 97 14:47:00
EID:72a4 224a75e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Quentin Fai to Martin Goldberg <=-
>MG> What sort of add-ons would these be. While we hear
>MG> stories of carrots and cukes, the most oft removed
>MG> vegetable from human orifices in ER's is the common
>MG> potato. It is used by the uninformed as a birth
>MG> control device.
Rectally, no doubt. Dumth knows no limits.
QF> I knew some people were stupid, but I didn't know that
QF> people could be *that* stupid.
And getting stupider.
... "Mein Fuehrer! I can't think!" -- Dr. StrangeCreationist
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: AYESHA WILLIAMS
|Sub: Conversion
|Date: 10 Feb 97 15:04:00
EID:09bf 224a7880
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ayesha Williams to All <=-
AW> Why is it that it seems that every Christian church
AW> is trying to convert the whole world? Ayesha
Profit and power.
... "Christianity based on the writings of Saul? HAHAHAHAHHA" -- Ken Wiens
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: JFK AND KISSINGER
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:09:00
EID:1d91 224b3920
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Mark Kimes <=-
-> On 05 Feb 97 13:23:51, Mark Kimes got back to Dan Ceppa
>>>HP> prophecy...
>>DC> Don't forget Kissinger!
>MK> How _is_ Dr. Kissinger, anyway?
DC> Good question. I haven't heard anything about him since
DC> about the time Nixon died.
I see both Doctor Kissinger and Richard Nixon every
Tuesday. It's rather anoying actually, but what the Hell.
I'm not one to complain.
In my search for the perfect Chile Releno(sp?) I found a
Mexican restaurant three miles from where I live (from my
boat) that does an excellent job, so I go there once a
week. One problem is that Nixon, Reagan, and Kissinger, to
name three of dozens of sleezy politicians, used to eat
there often, and their photographs plaster each wall.
(Talk about making one lose ones' appetite.) The place
still gets lots of Republicans eatting there (I guess they
like to see the Mexican slave labor making less than
minimum wage).
Once some rather stupid-looking guy, surrounded by thugs,
walked in and visited each table asking diners if he could
"count on your support for State Treasurer." I smiled and
told him I wasn't running for State Treasurer. (Goddess,
I'm such a wit.) He growled at me and went into the other
dining room. (I thought that the Treasurer was appointed,
not elected.)
One can wander the two rooms looking at Kissinger stuffing
himself with chicken enchiladas; one can look at a dozen
photographs that catch ever nuance of Nixon, spanning a
few years, shoveling Mexican rice in his mug the same way
(plate-in-face) every time. And these photographs are
autographed. Sheeish.
I still recommend the place. It's on Coast Highway South
of the entrance to Doheney State Beach. It's got purple
doors and a large lighted sign in the front. It's a real
bitch trying to leave the parking lot, so I park on the
street. I like to sit under a picture of Kissinger who's
laughing with his pals while leaning TO THE LEFT in his
seat. That cracks me up.
... "And he huffed, and he puffed, and he BLLLEEEEEEWWW the church down."
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: hypocritical godlings
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:19:00
EID:dcd6 224b3a60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Richard Smith <=-
-=> Richard Smith spoke thusly to Jonathan Fingas <=-
>>JF> He didn't kill the fig tree out of some conviction
>>JF> that the fig tree was evil or something!
He killed the tree to show how petulant and childish a
godling he was.
>>JF> Think about that.
ROFTL! A gleefully ignorant Fundy telling his intellectual
superiors to "think about that." ROTFL!
>RS> So it WASN'T a metaphor?
JB> And if it wasn't an EVIL fig tree, why did it have to die?
For the same reason little Jesus killed some of his playmates
and struck others blind. He lived in The Twilight Zone.
... "And he huffed, and he puffed, and he BLLLEEEEEEWWW the church down."
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Italian cheeseheads
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:23:00
EID:3d1c 224b3ae0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Dan Ceppa <=-
-=> Dan Ceppa spoke thusly to Judith Bandsma <=-
>>JB> desk from her. LOOKING at her. And telling her she
>>JB> isn't handicapped.
>DC> Does that bureaucrat still breathe? I hope not.
Someone might shoot the bastard in the knees and then
ask if he considers that a handicap.
JB> The letter that Crystal received from the state
JB> only lists 3 categories that are to be considered
JB> handicapped...paraplegic, quadraplegic and totally
JB> mentally incapacitated. The BLIND aren't even
JB> listed as handicapped.
Does that mean slightless people may not park in the
handicap spots at the market?
JB> As I told Lynda, I hope the state remembers that
JB> when the first guy with a guide dog shows up to
JB> take his driver's test.
He'll just have the dog take the eye test.
... Support the National Endowment for Creative Misogyny.- J. Falwell
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: BOOTSTRAPPING UP, UP!
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:29:00
EID:a3cd 224b3ba0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Like Jesus, Christianity is constantly being declared dead.
By who, exactly?
AS> But it won't stay dead.
Like Odin, Astara is constantly being declared dead. But it
is alive and well. So is Aphrodite, Innana, Astarte, Hecate.
Indeed, I have a friend who knows for a fact that Thor is
working and guiding him in his life, just as many Christians
claim their long-dead Jew does.
Therefore, what exactly was your point?
... "Be fuckers and multiply...." -- Genesis 1:22 (paraphrased)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Canadian Politics
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:31:00
EID:ab06 224b3be0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Paul Davis <=-
-=> Paul Davis spoke thusly to Judith Bandsma <=-
>>JB> fierljepper.
Sounds dirty. :-)
>PD> Is that Dutch again? Sorry, my Dutch isn't /that/
>PD> good and doesn't
JB> Actually it's Frisian. And it isn't a flame. It's
JB> the sport of pole vaulting over canals.
Dwarf Tossing is more my style.
How does one write "Fule Injector" in Dutch?
... Newt does -NOT- speak for me!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: TV TAX
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:51:00
EID:2265 224b3e60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Paul Davis <=-
-=> Paul Davis spoke thusly to Judith Bandsma <=-
>>JB> whether you watch BBC TV programmes or not. By
>>JB> just having a working television set in your
>>JB> house you have to buy a licence.
There were several women thrown in jail for not paying
this tax. It is an abomination--- information should
never be taxed, regardless of content. Imagine being
taxed when one reads a book or goes to a poetry reading.
>PD> It's not popular with a hell of a lot of us Brits
>PD> neither I can assure
JB> Not popular with the Dutch who have the same licensing
JB> system. Of course, I'm not real fond of our state's
JB> personal property tax, either, but we have it. In addition
JB> to paying sales tax when you buy a car, a boat or a mobile
JB> home, you have to pay ppt on it EVERY year. If you don't
JB> pay the tax you can't register it. If you don't register
JB> it, you cant use it.
Rather, may not use it. :-)
JB> (Or in the case of vehicles or boats, get license
JB> renewal)
One need not pay personal property tax to the county if
ones' boat was out of the county for the majority of a
year. The problem is that one is taxed anyhow, and one
must correct the problem after the fact by producing
evidence that the boat was out of the county. If one sails
away to Tahiti for three years and then comes back, the
county can take that boat away and sell it for the cost of
the "back taxes" for those three years plus a 10% fine,
unless one has someone back home filing the proper forms
with the county ASSessor.
The state's mendacity is even worse: they pay assessment
investigators a large cut of the take for every assessed
boat they track down and assest. The larger the value the
assessor says the boat is worth, the greater their cut. My
boat is worth about US$15,000, but an assessor can say it
is worth twice that much, and if I do not pay the US$300 a
year while I appeal the assessment, the county can take
the boat away and sell it for that US$300. One must pay
the tax and THEN appeal the amount. If one does not pay
the tax before the appeal, the assessor goes down to the
boat and chains it to the dock, butting the boat under
arrest.
This is why many boat owners play "hide-and-seek" with
the assessor, moving their boats around two or three
times a year.
I wonder if I could turn my boat into a church, and thus
not pay property tax on it. The mast and spreaders already
look like a crucifix.
... Look, Chickie. It's your Bible, your rules; YOU go to hell. - Marty
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: WARRING CHRISTAN FACTIONS
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:53:00
EID:e7b1 224b3ea0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Judith Bandsma <=-
KW> So Bear's still ahead of Leo.
Ursa Major or Ursa Minor?
... An atheist with a Bible is a fundie's worst nightmare!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Partial Virgin a little p
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:58:00
EID:f9bf 224b3f40
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Dave Hamilton <=-
-=> Dave Hamilton spoke thusly to Jan Deboer <=-
>DH> I think that from Al's POV, all xtians are defined
>DH> by his conclusions.
JB> We are seeing more and more that from Al's POV, all
JB> PEOPLE are defined by his conclusions, not just
JB> xians or other religious people.
This is true for everyone, as far as I can tell. Or I
should say that I admit to defining people based upon
my experiences and biases.
Only most people have the tact and tolerance Al appears
to lack.
... "And the inspiration for the vagina was...?" -- Steve Q
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Fart In Tune
|Date: 11 Feb 97 08:02:00
EID:2098 224b4040
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Staal <=-
-=> Jim Staal spoke thusly to Judith Bandsma <=-
>JS> Judy would even think you could fart right.
JB> You become slime by association. And the 'you'
JB> is not a general one, Jim.
But there are proper ways to fart.
... Do YOU trust a religion that won't obey it's OWN laws?
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: E, F and G Mail!
|Date: 11 Feb 97 12:58:00
EID:1fdc 224b6740
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Fredric Rice <=-
>FR> What's your email address, doc?
ML> MLeipzig@AOL.com *OR* leipzig.m%6230001@mcimail.com
ML> Hey. They're free.
That must be why neither work. :-)
... "I am a hisotry of buff of sorts[....]" -- Ken Young (home schooled)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAVID RAGLAND
|Sub: 'Profanity' bullshit
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:11:00
EID:7c80 224b6960
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Ragland to Marilyn Burge <=-
DR0> I realize that you may not care what a stupid,
DR0> backwards, archaic-minded, sexist fundy like me
DR0> thinks, but I am not alone. This is the case
DR0> with men both inside and outside the ranks of
DR0> fundyhood, Ma'am. Any "decent" man feels this way.
What the fuck do YOU know about "decency?" A decent
man accepts women as they are, and does not desire
to dictate policy at them.
DR0> That just about any man views a gutter-mouthed
DR0> female as being less than virtuous.
I trust a "gutter-mouthed female" far more than I would
trust a stupid, backwards, archaic-minded, sexist fundy
like yourself. I respect, admire, and am attracted to
women who say what they damn well feel like, instead of
playing arbitrary roles that stupid women-hatting shits
like yourself try to force them to accept.
... "I am a hisotry of buff of sorts[....]" -- Ken Young (home schooled)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAVID RAGLAND
|Sub: Fundies
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:23:00
EID:3735 224b6ae0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Ragland to Paul Boyer
>PB> Atheism is a NON-religion -- it requires no faith --
That's true. Atheism = "without theism," i.e. a lack of
belief in the gods. No faith involved.
DR0> Sure it does. It requires _faith_ to contend that _NO_
DR0> God[sic] exists.
What makes you believe all atheists contend that gods do
not exist?
Do you believe Santa Claus exists? If not, do you have
faith he does not exist, or does logic and reason tell
you he does not exist?
... I wouldn't trust 'God' to co-pilot an escalator. --- J.J. Hitt
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: Most Read Book
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:32:00
EID:6c9b 224b6c00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Ken Young <=-
-=> Ken Young wrote to Fredric Rice
>KY> [North American colonists] came here in part to escape
>KY> religious tyranny.
Mostly they came for the money.
>KY> Nowhere will you find one of them saying that they were
>KY> trying to escape Christian tyranny.
ROTFL!
DW> Were they trying to escape Muslim tyranny? Hindu tyranny?
DW> Jewish tyranny?
Smirk. What with all the fundy "hisotry of buff of sorts"
and the erudite "English Majors" in this echo, one would
think the level of Fundy discourse would be more correct
than it is.
... "I am a hisotry of buff of sorts[....]" -- Ken Young (home schooled)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:57:00
EID:70e8 224b6f20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
Ever hear of Bosnia? Ireland? Jonestown? Waco?
... "Nature writes with a spray can, not a ballpoint pen." - Zadeh
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:46:00
EID:70e8 224b6dc0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
CHURCHES SHIFT ABUSE DEFENSES
18-May-94 Denver Post:
Holding Groups Responsible 'violates religious freedom.'
By Virginia Culver
___--------------------------------------------------------------
Attorneys for three local church organizations that recently
lost court cases involving sexual misconduct by clergy claim
that holding churches accountable for ministers' conduct robs
them of their religious freedom.
In "friend of the court" briefs filed this month with the US
Supreme Court, attorneys in two Denver United Methodist cases
and a third involving Denver's Bear Valley Church of Christ say
lower-court rulings making churches liable for ministers'
actions violate the First Amendment by restricting the churches
"free exercise of religion".
The attorneys said that telling churches how to "select, assign,
supervise and discipline clergy, and how religious organizations
may conduct their administration and how a clergy person does
pastoral counseling" violates the First Amendment.
Questioning how churches operate "directly interferes with the
institutions' free exercise of religion," the attorneys charge.
The legal arguments were filed in defense of the Colorado
Episcopal Diocese and its appeal of a sexual misconduct case.
In that case, the diocese is appealing to the US Court of
Appeals a $728,000 judgment to Mary Moses Tenantry. She alleged
that a sexual relationship with her priest, the Rev. Paul
Robinson, cause her extreme, psychological and spiritual harm.
Tenantry and Robinson became involved when he was an associate
past of St. Philip and St. James Episcopal Church in southwest
Denver.
A jury awarded her $1.2 million from the diocese in 1991. The
diocese appealed that decision to the Colorado Supreme Court,
which reduced the judgment to $728,000.
The United Methodist cases, both this year, involved Dianne R.
Winkler of Aurora and Christa Bohrer of Denver.
Winkler was awarded more than $163,000 in January by a Denver
District Court jury in her civil suit against the Rev. Glenn
Chambers, former pastor of Grace United Methodist Church in
southeast Denver. She alleged sexual harassment. Chambers and
the church appealed the verdict to the Colorado Court of Appeals
this month.
Bohrer was awarded more than $700,000 in her civil suit in
Denver District against former minister Daniel DeHart and the
United Methodist Annual Conference (the equivalent of a
diocese). She alleged DeHart seduced her into a sexual
relationship when she was 13 and he was youth minister at First
Methodist Church in Greeley.
In the Church of Christ suit in 1992, a Dever woman and her son
were awarded $450,000 by a Denver District Court jury. The
woman, who son was a minor at the time, claimed the minister,
Homer Wolfe, inappropriately massaged and fondled him during
counseling sessions for five years. That case is before the
Colorado Court of Appeals.
In all three judgments, juries concluded church officials failed
to properly screen, hire and supervise the ministers. All three
juries also ordered the church or conference to pay at least
half the damages.
Friend of the court briefs are filed by parties who stand to be
materially affected by the outcome of a pending decision--in
this case, the high court's decision about whether to review the
Tenantry case. In their briefs, the church attorneys threaten
to appeal their judgments--to the US Court of Appeals, if
necessary.
But an expert in constitutional law at the University of Dever
said he doubts the First Amendment claims will get anywhere.
Stephen Pepper, BU law professor, said for the government to say
how a religion chooses it rabbi or priest "gets into the freedom
of religion."
Religious groups do have the right to the free exercise of their
religion, he said, in all matters of administration, "but if
your minister hurts someone, you'll have to pay." said Pepper.
He called the First Amendment defense "a live issue" that has
been used in other church cases, particularly those involving
discrimination. "It's kind of a knee-jerk defense."
"But it's pretty hard to defend against statutory rape and
sexual harassment," he said.
The attorneys filing the friend of the court briefs are Neil
Quigley, who represented the United Methodists in the Bohrer and
Winkler cases and the Church of Christ in the third case; and
Jim Johnson, attorney for Homer Wolfe.
The attorneys say in the briefs that they have been "involved in
many lawsuits in Colorado for almost ten years where religious
institutions have had claims against them for sexual
improprieties."
Devern attorney Joyce Seelen, who represented Tenantry, Winkler,
Bohrer and the woman who sued on behalf of her son, yesterday
refused to comment about the recent briefs. Two others briefs
supporting the Episcopal diocese and citing the First Amendment
argument have been filed with the US Court of Appeals.
The American Association of Pastoral Counselors, headquarters in
Virginia, said the lower court "did not understand that pastoral
counseling and supervision of parish clergy is not the
equivalent to employment supervision."
The other brief was filed by a coalition of Colorado religious
groups, including Catholics and Protestants.
... "Oh, I've GOT to bless HER!" -- Father Dean Martin
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:47:00
EID:70e8 224b6de0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
Beating The Devil
___--------------------------------------------------------------
As reported in the London Free Press, Thursday, September 22,
1994 pg. A6
Pair on Trial for gouging out their sister's eyeballs. The three
women say they were trying to flee the devil
Associated Press
DALLAS -- Myra Obasi and her sisters say they were fleeing the
devil.
They gave away their children, tried to drive into traffic and
off bridges, and eventually abandoned their car, saying it was
cursed.
Finally, prosecutors say, they tried to remove the evil
possessing Obasi by pummelling her and gouging out her eyeballs,
possibly with their fingernails.
A jury Wednesday began deliberating the case against Doretha
Crawford, 34, and Beverly Johnson, 35 both of Arcadia, La. They
are charged with aggravated assault against their now-blind
sister.
The three sisters all say they don't know how Obasi was blinded.
The women do say that they left Arcadia, a pine-forested town of
about 3,000 people, because a local voodoo man told them a devil
was trying to kill them.
During the two-day trip, the women--afraid the devil had caught
up with them--left their five children with strangers in
Marshall, Tex., 150 kilometres from home. The youngsters were
eventually returned to the family.
Later, Obasi began trying to drive into traffic and off bridges.
Police found them stopped outside Dallas and were told by the
sisters that there was a curse on the car.
The siblings then hitchhiked into Dallas, about 320 kilometres
from where they started, where they were seen praying and
begging for help on March 18.
Dorothy Hughes, a teacher who spotted the women on her morning
walk, said the sisters pummelled and prayed with Obasi, who
offered no resistance.
"Her eyes were very red," she said. "I just had not seen eyes
like that before. They were blood red." Doctors testified that
they eyes were removed by something sharp, possibly fingernails.
... "I am a hisotry of buff of sorts[....]" -- Ken Young (home schooled)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:48:00
EID:70e8 224b6e00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
Beating The Devil, Article Number Two
Dallas Morning News, Friday 9/23/94
WOMEN GET PROBATION FOR GOUGING SISTER'S EYES.
By Steve Scott
___--------------------------------------------------------------
Two Louisiana Women, convicted of plucking out their sister's
eyes in an apparent attempt to drive a demonic spirit from her
body, were sentenced to ten years' probation Thursday.
Lawyers for Doretha Crawford, 34, and Beverly Johnson, 35, said
they plan to appeal and seek a new trial to establish their
clints's innocence. A Dallas County jury found the women guilty
of aggravated assault Wednesday in the March 18 attack that
permanently blinded their sister, Myra Obasi.
Ms. Obasi had asked prosecutors not to pursue the case and
testified on her sisters' behalf. She said she "thanked God" for
the probationary sentences but was unhappy with the guilty
verdicts.
"I don't agree with that," she said. "My sisters are my best
friends. They love me, and I love them. I know that they did not
do this."
Testimony had suggested that the women believed their sister was
possessed and blamed her condition on voodoo practices, but
their statements Thursday afternoon centered on the Christian
faith.
"Only true believers in Christ can undersand what we went
through," Ms. Johnson said.
Defense attorney Lela Washington said she also believed Ms.
Obasi had been possessed by some supernatural power.
"If you're a Christian, then you know there's a devil," she said.
Ms. Obasi lost her eyesight on March 18 after she and her
sisters drove to Dallas from Louisiana and stopped at a prayer
house in southeast Oak Cliff. Witnesses testified that they saw
Ms. Crawford and Ms. Johnson beating their sister and trying to
press cloves of garlic into her eyes. She was taken to Parkland
Memorial Hospital later that day with her eyes gouged out.
In their testimony Tuesday, the women described leaving
Louisiana in terror after being told that another sister had
joined forces with a voodoo cult in an effort to have them
killed.
On the journey, they said, Ms. Obasi appeared to become
possessed by a demonic spirit. Ms. Crawford testified that her
sister began breathing mist, her eyes bulged and her tongue grew
long and discolored. Ms. Obasi also began speaking in a man's
voice, her sister said.
Ms. Obasis said Thursday that neither she nor her sisters
believe in voodoo, but said she had been victimized by an evil
spirit and that "something that wasn't of this world" took
possession of her body.
She testified during the trial that she did not remember who
gouged out her eyes.
Assistant District Attorney said he was satisfied with the
jury's decision. But he said that others who might be involved
in ritual mutilations shouldn't think probation in such cases is
guaranteed.
"They've got to remember that each case is decided based on the
facts in that case alone," he said.
He also expressed concern about Ms. Obasi's current situation,
in which she is being cared for by her sisters and participating
in therapy to cope with the leoss of her sight.
"I don't know whether being with the sisters now will help her
recovery or hurt it," he said.
But Ms. Obasi said she looks forward to spending time with her
siblings and doesn't fear a recurrence of the demon that she
says took her sight.
"I know it won't come back," Ms. Obasi said. "I believe God and
his word.
"If there's anything I want people to realize from this case,
it's that God is real. I'm living proof that he is real."
... Follow the double helix, not the cross.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:49:00
EID:70e8 224b6e20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
Gunmen for Christ
___--------------------------------------------------------------
March 10, 1993 -- Dr. David Gunn was shot to death outside a
Pensacola, Fla., clinic, the first American doctor killed during
an anti-abortion demonstration. Michael Griffin was convicted
and sentenced to life in prison.
Aug. 19, 1993 -- Dr. George Tiller was shot in both arms as he
drove out of the parking lot at his Wichita, Kan., clinic.
Rachelle (Shelley) Shannon was convicted and sentenced to 11
years in prison.
July 29, 1994 -- Dr. John Bayard Britton and his escort, James
Barrett, were slain outside a Pensacola, Fla., abortion clinic.
Paul Hill, 40, a former minister and an abortion foe, was
convicted of state murder charges and sentenced to death. In a
separate federal trial, Hill was sentenced to life without
parole for violating the new federal clinic-protection law.
Nov. 8, 1994 -- Dr. Garson Romalis, who performs abortions in
Vancouver, B.C., Canada, was shot in the leg while eating
breakfast at home. No arrests have been made.
Dec. 30, 1994 -- A gunman killed two staff workers and five
other people at two abortion clinics in the Boston suburb of
Brookline. A 22-year-old hairdresser named John Salvi was later
arrested and charged with murder.
... Blasphemy is what an old mistake says of a newly discovered truth.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:50:00
EID:70e8 224b6e40
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
Assemblies of God and Child Abuse
___--------------------------------------------------------------
Los Angeles - Five men who were sexually molested as children by
a minister have reached a $1.75 million out-of-court settlement
with the Assemblies of God, Inc. The victims, now [ages] 27 to
30, will share the settlement.
The minister, the Rev. Dalton Webber Sr., admitting his guilt
during the course of the suit and stated that he had been
forgiven. Webber, formerly the senior pastor at Good Shepherd
Assemblies of God Worship Center in Carlsbad, Cailfornia, moved
to Filoan Springs, Arkansas, before the suit was filed. - Walk
Away
... Blasphemy is what an old mistake says of a newly discovered truth.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:53:00
EID:70e8 224b6ea0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
"Family values" leader accused of abuse and neglect
___--------------------------------------------------------------
Mon, July 24, 1995
SAN DIEGO - One of the state's most outspoken proponents of
family values has been married five times, owes thousands of
dollars in child support and has been accused of threatening his
ex-spouse and girlfriend, according to a published report.
Jim Harnsberger leads the conservative California Republican
Assembly in San Diego and helped found the Center for Family
Values, a group that condemns people who abuse their spouses and
ignore parental responsibilities.
But the 40-year-old Harnsberger failed to pay family support
totaling $18,000 between 1988 and 1992 for a child in his third
marriage, according to court records cited by the San Diego
Union-Tribune Monday.
Harnsberger admits to making mistakes in his personal life but
maintains his shortcomings should not overshadow his current
message.
"I can only get on my knees and pray to God to forgive, and take
from that and try to do the best I can the next day. That's all
I can do," Harnsberger told the paper. "I refuse to look for
excuses. I accept full responsibility for what I do."
In other court documents, his third wife alleges Harnsberger
made threats to both her and her unborn child.
"He has been violent with me before, and I fear for my unborn
child and myself," the woman wrote in a 1988 declaration seeking
child support.
Another woman, a former girlfriend, obtained a court order
requiring Harnsberger to stay away from her.
"(He) said he would cut me up into little pieces and throw me
into the ocean and no one would ever know," the woman wrote in
1987.
But Harnsberger told the newspaper: "I don't put much
credibility in what ex-wives and people with axes to grind have
to say."
... Blasphemy is the breastplate of the heartless.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:54:00
EID:70e8 224b6ec0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
New unity on Jonestown memorial plan
___--------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Brazil OF THE EXAMINER STAFF
Wednes, July 19, 1995
Bay Area African American leaders have launched a fund-raising
campaign for a Jonestown memorial wall at Evergreen Cemetery in
Oakland.
They're aiming to unveil the memorial Nov. 18, the 17th
anniversary of the suicide- murders of 914 men, women and
children at cult leader Jim Jones' compound in the Guyanan rain
forest.
First, though, there's the matter of raising $35,000 for the
20-foot-long, 6-foot-tall wall, on which the names of all the
victims would be inscribed.
"We have a duty to ensure that the legacy does not perish," said
Kola Thomas of the Center for African-American Art and Culture
in San Francisco.
Fund raising for a memorial wall has gone on fitfully for
several years, but Tuesday's announcement marked the first
unified effort by the African American community to get the job
done.
A total of 406 victims who followed Jones and his Peoples Temple
from San Francisco to Jonestown are buried in a mass grave at
Evergreen Cemetery. The site is marked by one modest headstone.
That headstone was placed by retired San Francisco butcher Fred
Lewis, whose wife and seven children died at Jonestown. He is
taking a leading role in raising funds for the monument, as is
his niece, the Rev. Jynona Norwood, a Los Angeles minister.
Donations may be made payable to Jonestown Memorial Wall Fund,
Account 103347, and forwarded to Allen Temple Baptist Church
Federal Credit Union, 8500 A St., Oakland, CA 94621
... Anything that can be laughed out of this world ought not to stay in
it
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:56:00
EID:70e8 224b6f00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can
KY> you think of lately, that occurred in the name of
KY> Christianity?
Jeffrey Dahmer: a Product Of Christian Fundamentalism
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey Dahmer is the son of a Born Again Fundamentalist (Church
of Christ) father. Jeffrey's Born Again Fundamentalist home life
led him to feel he could not acknowledge his homosexuality to
his Fundamentalist father, and instead he developed an intense
hatred of himself and of other gay men.
Well Jeffrey has now come home. He has become a Born Again
Fundamentalist, baptized by a minister of the Church of Christ.
The following article chronicles the story of Jeffrey Dahmer's
pilgrimage of faith: from Born Again Fundamentalist home to Born
Again Fundamentalist prison cell, from Church of Christ to
Church of Christ.
___--------------------------------------------------------------
"Anger at his homosexuality led Dahmer to kill, psychiatrist
says"
[Milwaukee Sentinel, 7 Feb 92, by David Doege, Sentinel Staff
Writer]
Serial killer Jeffrey L. Dahmer killed his victims out of anger
at his homosexuality and kept body parts as trophies, like a
hunter, a psychiatrist testified in Dahmer's sanity trial
Thursday.
"I don't believe his behavior was sexually motivated,"
psychiatrist George Palermo said. "I believe Jeffrey Dahmer
killed his victims because he hated homosexuality."
Palermo, the first mental health expert in Dahmer's trial to
testify that he was sane and criminally responsible when he
murdered, also said that Dahmer has lied for years and still
lies today.
"He lied to the judge in 1989 (when Dahmer was sentenced for
sexual assault)," Palermo said. "He lied to his lawyer.
"He lied to many doctors to get the (sleeping) pills. It is my
feeling he has embellished a great deal in the things he has
said he did."
Palermo was the first witness to testify after defense attorney
Gerald P. Boyle rested his case. Appointed by Circuit Judge
Laurence C. Gram, Jr. as an impartial examiner, Palermo put
Boyle in the position of attacking a psychiatric opinion for the
first time in the trial.
While Boyle could not get Palermo to back down on his opinion
that Dahmer was criminally responsible for his killings, Boyle
did get the psychiatrist to concede that Dahmer needed treatment
to stop his killing spree.
"If he doesn't go for any help at all, he would have killed
again, wouldn't he?" asked Boyle, who called the previous mental
health experts to testify as defense witnesses.
"I would say so," Palermo acknowledged.
"Palermo's testimony Thursday came as Dahmer's trial on 15
counts of first-degree intentional homicide neared the halfway
point. Dist. Atty. E. Michael McCann is to begin presenting the
prosecution's case Friday.
Dahmer, 31, has pleaded guilty, but insane, to the homicide
charges stemming from the slayings of 15 young men and boys in
West Allis and Milwaukee.
A jury is hearing the case to determine whether Dahmer should be
imprisoned because he was sane when he killed or if he should be
committed to a mental health institution because he was
criminally insane and could not conform his conduct to the law.
Palermo, a psychiatrist since 1962, came to Milwaukee from Italy
in 1952 but has returned to Rome periodically since then to
practice and teach for extended periods.
He has taught psychiatry in Rome, at Loyola Medical School in
Chicago and at Marquette University. He currently is on the
staff at the Milwaukee County Mental Health Comples in Wauwatosa
and the Milwaukee Forensic Unit.
Palermo, a grandfatherly type who speaks with an Italian accent,
frequently had the jury and others in the courtroom charmed and
smiling at his retorts to Boyle's questions, making it clear
that he knew where the lawyer was heading with his line of
questioning.
"Mr. Boyle, I have known you many years," Palermo said at one
point.
Palermo said Dahmer was "a very complex man" afflicted by severe
mixed personality disorder with features of sadism, compulsion,
anti-social behavior and narcissism, among other things. Palermo
said it would be wrong to categorize Dahmer as having one type
of behavior that controls his actions.
Defense psychologists and psychiatrists said Dahmer's criminal
actions were driven by necrophilia.
"Jeffrey Dahmer is a human being," Palermo said. "To take away
from him by just saying he is a necrophile is wrong," Palermo
said. "He is much more."
Boyle noted that many of the features cited by Palermo were by
themselves indicative of a sexual disorder. Boyle added that the
"Diagnostics and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders," a
highly regarded guidebook used by mental health experts
nationwide, indicated that the features denoted sexual deviancy.
Palermo said his conclusion about Dahmer's problems were more
important than the manual's.
"A guidebook is a guidebook," Palermo said. "It's up to me to
decide what is wrong."
Palermo said Dahmer could have stopped killing whenever he
wanted to and had done so in the past. Dahmer was in control of
his actions, but instead lied about them and concealed them,
Palermo said.
Dahmer's sentencing for sexual assault, Palermo said, was proof
he was in control because he had killed several people,
including one the day before he was sentenced, but was not
seeking help for it.
"As he was able to lie and not tell the truth to the judge and
to you, Mr. Boyle, so could he have told the truth," Palermo
said to Boyle who represented Dahmer in the sex case. "He was in
command of the situation.
"He was able to say, 'I'm not going to do it again. I'm going to
go for treatment.'"
Concerning Dahmer's difficulty in coming to grips with his
homosexuality, Palermo indicated that was a problem since
adolescence because he believed his family could not accept it.
The difficulty evolved into a hatred over the years which later
led to the killings, Palermo said.
--30--
... Pickup line: You're under arrest! Place your ankles behind your ears.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: MARK O'NEILL
|Sub: Blavatsky?
|Date: 11 Feb 97 13:59:00
EID:a3bc 224b6f60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Mark O'neill to All <=-
MO> Hi all. Can anyone tell me who or what Blavatsky is? It's
MO> on an album of mine and I've been curious about it for years.
Madam Blavatsky more or less came up with the Theosophy bullshit.
... "I am a hisotry of buff of sorts[....]" -- Ken Young (home schooled)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: RICHARD SMITH
|Sub: R Daily Xtian Persecutio
|Date: 11 Feb 97 14:03:00
EID:abdd 224b7060
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to All <=-
> Well, religious zealotry and bigotry have hit the Pagan
> community here locally again. One of the members of our
> group was the unhappy recipient of a home search by police,
> etc., the other night. They were, obstensibly, looking for
> stuff to put her husband (a Mormon, I should point out, that
> apparently believes in the old fashioned Xtian ethic: beat
> the shit out of your wife every chance you get) away on.
No names; no dates; no information at all. Therefore I think
the events did not occur. The author(s) was telling a lie.
... Rush Limbaugh: Every Republican homosexual's dream date!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 09 Feb 97 20:52:00
EID:f735 2249a680
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32fe7f40
DM>Jim Goodman said "Oops, Caught Again" to David Worrell,
DM>adding:
DW>Here's a hint, dumbass. What about all the other possible gods?
DW>Don't you think they're gonna be a little pissed that you spent
DW>your life worshipping Jehovah?
JG>If I were taking a somewhat opposing position I'd say
JG>the first point above about the other gods being pissed
JG>only holds if they actually exist.
DM>If one _can_ exist, they _all_ may. There is no
DM>disputing the order of preference between imaginary
DM>superfriends.
Very true.
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Are you coming quietly or do I have to wear earplugs?
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Apologies to Regulars
|Date: 09 Feb 97 20:57:02
EID:af4e 2249a720
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32fe806e
JG>Out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would have to exist
JG>for it to constitute evidence for the existence of an
JG>"Almighty" variety of a God?
DM> Personally, I have said many times that I would welcome ANY
DM>evidence of the existence of any god, and I have even specified
DM>ndirect evidence that would be quite convincing, not only to
DM>me, but (I suspect) to all the wicked atheists here: the residue
DM>of the Noachan Flood. It avoids the problem of "how can there be
DM>physical evidence for a spiritual being?" by focussing on one
DM>instance in which that spiritual being supposedly interacted
DM>physically with the physical world in a way that would have
DM>produced distinctive physical consequences. While we have seen
DM>fundies claim that their god is so deceitful as to cover his
DM>tracks, I, for one, would presume that such a dishonest being is
DM>unworthy of being taken seriously, much less of worship.
Yes. I've gone so far as to read alleged "scientific" evidence
for this Flood written by CRI "scientists." It is anything but
science. It is, in fact, downright deceitful. The only thing
this stuff does is turn people off to the God of the Bible.
I prefer to stick to genuine scientific writings written by
genuine scientists. So far none of them have found even a
trace of evidence for this biblical flood.
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your taglines!
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Wonder Woman Comics win
|Date: 09 Feb 97 21:01:04
EID:d224 2249a820
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32fe8160
DR>You have run to arms of atheism in order to avoid
DR>submitting to the will of the Almighty.
MK>How silly of you. It is precisely the lack of
MK>any evidence that any "Almighty" [sic] exists
MK>that has led to my own atheism.
jg>Well, then, how 'bout "Partly mighty" rather than "Al-mighty?"
jg>:)
RS>Based on what?
Didn't see the little smiley face at the end of my comment,
huh?
jg>Out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would have to
jg>exist for it to constitute evidence for the existence
jg>of an "Almighty" variety of a God?
RS> Simple. The Bible is replete with stories of YHVH appearing
RS> to people. An ALMIGHTY Deity could appear to EVERYONE,
RS> simultaneously, and let them know that it exists. It would
RS> not be a chore to an all-mighty Deity, and it would be the
RS> best possible way of convincing everyone. If the Bible is
RS> true, then YHVH should be able to do it, since it did it in
RS> the past. There's only three reasons for why YHVH DOESN'T
RS> do it:
RS>a)YHVH CAN'T do it . . . ergo, YHVH is not all-mighty.
RS>b)YHVH DOESN'T want to do it . . . so why should we care
RS>about such an entity?
RS>c) YHVH DOESN'T exist.
I tend toward accepting choice "c" above.
jg>Certainly it would involve signs in the universe and
jg>this world that the Almighty One is in control of
jg>things.
RS>You think so?
Yes, if said Almighty One really is Almighty.
jg>Quite the opposite would seem to be the case most of
jg>the time, correct?
RS>"Quite the opposite," and "most of the time," Ken? Can you
RS>be any more ambiguous?
I have no idea who this "Ken" fellow is.
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: FUNDY SHUFFLE: Step 8
|Date: 09 Feb 97 21:05:06
EID:caca 2249a8a0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32fe8252
RS>I think Ken needs Hooked on Phonics . . . anyone want to
RS>chip in to get it for him and Staalin so that they can
RS>get some remedial reading?
MG>Well, Ken Wino hasn't shown his fundy ass in here for
MG>months. I guess he had to go to someother echo and tell
MG>them how he "kicked their asses in Holysmoke".
MG>The lad needs some self resepct, after all.
jg>Must've been an interesting fellow. I'm new here myself. Yet
jg>in the week or less I've read this echo I've seen quite a
jg>few messages referencing this person. What was he, some kind
jg>of radical "right" Fundi?
RS>He thought that twelve-year-old rape victims that got
RS>pregnant as a result of the rape were somehow asking for it.
RS>And if they aborted that zygote, then they should be
RS>executed. He also believed that Hitler was operating
RS>legally when he had the Jews slaughtered. And so on and so
RS>on. I guess you'd have to make your own mind up about how
RS>radical he was . . .
Very radical. I'd rather not have "friends" like that. A
woman should be able to choose herself what she does with
her body. Anything less is just plain immoral. I feel very
strongly about this issue. My sister aborted her baby by
choice and it was her right to do so. No one but no one
else had the right to make that choice for her.
jg>! Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550
RS>Hmmm . . . and I suppose you're no relation to Ken, eh?
RS>Even though you post from the same BBS?
I hope not! I wouldn't want to have anything to do with such
a person! Nor am I aware of his having called the same board
I do. Orange County, Calif. has a large population with fewer
and fewer bbs's every day. Everyone seems to be migrating to
the Internet newsgroups.
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Disk Full - Press F1 to belch.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Fundies
|Date: 09 Feb 97 21:08:08
EID:9176 2249a900
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32fe8308
DR>If you are so set against the idea that any God exist
MK>Strawman. We are not "set against the idea that any God
MK>exist [sic]." You have yet to provide us with any reason
MK>MKto believe that your gods exist -- that's all.
jg>Even reasons to believe gods or any God exists would be
jg>a start. Could there be good reasons for either? Never
jg>mind answering the question whether "your gods" exist.
jg>Just start with gods or God generic.
RS>Isn't that what Mark said?
Not quite. He did use the delimiter "your" with "gods."
jg>* WR 1.33 # 618 * Dear Santa: Send me your list of naughty girls.
jg>Thanks.
jg>-!- Maximus/2 3.01
jg> ! Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550
RS>Interesting. Not only do you post from the same BBS as Ken
RS>Wiens, but you use the same mail reader as he does. What a
RS>coincidence, eh? };)
No. Wave Rider is a popular reader. Whoever that nut is I
want nothing to do with him. Anyone who would say the things
he says about abortion is a radical idiot.
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * As King Arthur said, some days it all seems so feudal.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Jim Goodman
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Marygoround.
|Date: 09 Feb 97 21:12:10
EID:b2a8 2249a980
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 32fe83fa
pd>That was an event sure, but where did the event come
pd>from? Where is the cause of the Big Bang?
Jd>No one knows that yet...perhaps we may never know.
MG>The eternal hope of the fundy is "god may be around the
MG>next corner". It makes no difference to them that we have
MG>successfully removed god from almost every natural event
MG>that we know of. Lightening, thunder, earthquakes and all
MG>the rest are given simple natural explanations. but these
MG>guys still want to attribute it to a god.
MG>Some people never learn.
JG>Hmmm...Yes. Perhaps this is why they have retreated to the
JG>Ultimate Cause of the Big Bang type of argument.
RS>As opposed to Ken Wien's Uncaused Cause Theorum? };)
I have no idea. I don't know what that fellow believes. I
myself am agnostic leaning in the atheist direction.
RS>Got any more good ones you fake you?-- Ken Wiens, ex-college stude
As I said, I have no idea who that fellow is. It may well be he
calls the same board and uses the same reader. I don't know and
don't really care. As long as he doesn't push his radical fundy
crap on me I'll do ok. I'm certainly not going to switch boards
or readers just because he uses the same ones.
RS>... Of course I'm leading the witness. He's a sheep, after all . . .
RS>___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
RS>--- Maximus 3.01
RS> * Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * I can't even *find* amok, let alone run one.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: amazon.com
|Date: 10 Feb 97 13:42:38
EID:2989 224a6d40
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32ff262b
PID: GED3 2.5
I received my first order from Amazon.com today.
_The New Age: Notes of a Fringe Watcher_, _Weird Water & Fuzzy Logic: More
Notes of a Fringe Watcher_, and _Urantia: The Great Cult Mystery_, all by
Martin Gardner.
_Asimov's Guide to the Bible: The Old and New Testaments_, by Isaac Asimov.
If I disappear for a while, there is no need to alert my family. I will
be back soon.
BTW, if any of you ever decide to order from Amazon, go ahead and splurge
on 2nd Day Air. UPS Ground took 7 days to get the books to me.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: t-verse
|Date: 11 Feb 97 00:54:51
EID:b22c 224b06c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32ffc40d
PID: GED3 2.5
I stumbled across a Samuel Johnson quote today that made me think of you.
I'm going to paraphrase it slightly, to make it fit the situation better,
but I'm sure you'll recognize it.
Your ideas are both good and original. But the parts
that are good are not original, and the parts that are
original are not good.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 11 Feb 97 00:58:19
EID:836f 224b0740
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32ffc4d1
PID: GED3 2.5
08 Feb 97 16:58, Roger Hunter wrote to David Worrell:
JG>> That is one way to eliminate a possible Cause for the
JG>> Big Bang.
DW>> It has nothing to do with eliminating a cause. It simply *is*.
RH> Unfortunately, that sounds just like a fundy argument; "God just IS".
Then you missed the thrust of the statement. The above was not meant in
support of anything.
Goodman insinuated that the fact that time did not exist before the BB was
just a way to eliminate causality, when "eliminating" causality has nothing
to do with it.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 11 Feb 97 01:01:10
EID:b8d1 224b0820
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32ffc4ee
PID: GED3 2.5
09 Feb 97 20:41, Alan Hess wrote to David Worrell:
KY>>> Seems that when this was more of a Christian society, things
KY>>> were a lot better.
DW>> Which time period, exactly, are you referring to?
AH> When blacks, women, Jews, gays, and other such inferiors, heathens and
AH> deviants were kept in their proper place, I suppose.
I know. I just wanted to see if he'd admit it.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: crackpots and concepts
|Date: 11 Feb 97 01:02:12
EID:34d2 224b0840
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32ffc532
REPLY: 1:3603/210 2f750476
PID: GED3 2.5
08 Feb 97 22:30, ROBERT CURRY wrote to DAVID WORRELL:
RC>>> So go to your grave a futile crackpot, Mr. Dumpty.
JB>> I'll be in good company, Mr. King's man.
DW>> Do you suppose this might be an example of John's
DW>> alleged rapier wit?
RC> Brawley may simply be wishing for someone to put him together again.
I doubt that, since he doesn't realize he's cracked apart, yet.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: For your rude behavior?
|Date: 10 Feb 97 18:06:22
EID:f414 224a90c0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 230b4af8
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 32fc26a8
On (08 Feb 97) Richard Smith babbled to Marilyn Burge...
RS> I can readily see that. For what it's worth, you come off in
RS> the exchange as more humane. And I respect very much.
RS> I don't want to tread in areas that are still hurting, but
RS> how IS your sister? When I left a month ago, she'd just been
RS> diagnosed. I'm hoping I'm not putting my foot in things by
RS> asking like this.
Thank you for asking, and thanks also for your positive take on
the exchange.
My sister's doctor halted her radiation therapy for two weeks
until she could assess whether it was shrinking the tumors in her
lungs or not. It is, so the radiation resumes tomorrow for two
more weeks. The doctor thinks that'll buy her another couple of
years, but she doesn't know Eileen is still smoking, so who knows
what that'll do to her timeline.
Chris is back to work, and they have so far gone through (I think
it's three homecare people). I think Eileen wants Lou to do it
fulltime, but that's not in the cards. He doesn't mind going over
there in a pinch, or when they are between careworkers, but if
Eileen thinks she can get away with firing them one after another,
she's got another think coming; Lou has a life of his own to live,
and, apparently after talking with him about it, he intends to
live it, as best he can.
The doctor says the tumor in Eileen's brain is history, but it and
the surgery to remove it have left their mark on her memory and
cognition. Eileen will, in short, never be the same. She now has a
permanent catheter because everybody has given up on that battle,
she is still partially paralyzed on her right side, and she is
confined to a wheelchair. I think that pretty much accounts for
why she has little or no interest in giving up her smokes. Who
would want to live for ten more years in that condition? Not I,
that's for sure!
... Hell hath no fury like the lawyer of a woman scorned...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Pedophile Christian cook
|Date: 09 Feb 97 20:34:30
EID:f94b 2249a440
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 f57b8219
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 32fcc43e
On (08 Feb 97) Richard Smith wrote to Ed Mills...
RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> Ed Mills said to Fredric Rice about Pedophile Christian cooks:
EM> I don't know about same-sex consent, but I can tell you
EM> that, as a child, I'd have gotten naked for Barbara
EM> Feldon any way, any where. :)
RS> Or Barbara Eden. Or Diana Rigg. Absolutely.
Who's Diana Rigg? (We only had one channel where I grew up.)
And, of course, never forget that adorable khaki-shorted National
Geographic honey, Jane Goodall. Or was it Goodale? Some of the
teachers at my grade school thought there was hope for me because
I always had several copies in my desk. Other kids spanked monkeys,
I was partial to chimps.
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: St. Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/24.12)
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|From: Jim Panzer
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 10 Feb 97 17:01:06
EID:aa2b 224a8820
MSGID: 1:3637/1.0 32ff9aa2
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 7b9e0c78
MB> Acts 26:14 states they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice.
MB> That should keep you busy for a while. I am compiling a list of biblical
MB> contradictions, inconsistencies and errors and so far
MB> I have 1,312 of them.
MB> I have probably only reached about 25% of what will be
MB> the final count. The
MB> bible is so untrustworthy as to be good for little more than a textbook
Marilyn: I love your stuff........is there any way I can get a copy of
the 1,312 that you have so far.......can you send me a disk or can I get
it via the internet........my E-mail adress is: jpanz@micropro.com.........I
can also send you a self addressed envelope if it takes that.......your
stuff is so good that I just have to get a copy to throw in the faces of
the Fundies here in the bible belt.............Pagan Panz
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Cumberland BBS -TN- V34 (1:3637/1)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: TIME Atheist Article
|Date: 11 Feb 97 11:58:59
EID:f0c8 224b5f40
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 300b3312
CHRS: IBMPC 2
* Forwarded (from: INETMAIL) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd 1.10+.
* Originally from Brian Lynch (1:382/87) to terry liberty-parker (1:382/804).
* Original dated: Tue Feb 11, 11:56
From: Brian Lynch
Response to TIME Magazine article on the Murray-O'Hair's. The TIME
article was not very informative, and indicates a lazy, indifferent
staff of writers & editors who don't do much to investigate, and don't
check facts closely. Like most of their 'political' articles, the
one on the Murray-O'Hair's was short on analysis and full of "..he
said...she said..." quotes, making it sound more like the product
of a gossip-columnist.
-BL
Dear Editors,
Your article about Madalyn Murray-O'Hair and her family's disappearance
is
interesting, if only for its lateness. The financial matters you wrote
about were first brought to light in 1987 when, as the Treasurer of Society
of Separationists, Inc., I noticed serious financial irregularities, and
voiced
my concern to some members of the SOS Board that Madalyn O'Hair had
apparently been lying to the Internal Revenue Service (and her membership)
about the finances of her Atheist Corporations.
In early 1987, it was clear that millions of dollars were flowing through
accounts that were in Texas, Ontario, Saskatchewan, New Zewaland, and other
locations. Money from wills and estates which had been placed in Cayman
Island Banks, was being transferred to bank accounts in Switzerland. The
Murray-O'Hair family took lavish vacations which they called "business
trips" to Switzerland,
Egypt, and other nations where they met with Atheist authors, allegedly
to
negotiate book deals. One of the oddest "book deals" concerned Soledad
de'Montalvo Mielche(??spelling), a woman who was known for cookbooks, but
who was also an Atheist. It appeared then, and subsequent information given
to me has tended to confirm, that the European cookbook lady may have been
helping Madalyn O'Hair cook her financial books in the United States.
I was forced to leave American Atheists in 1987 when I began making
inquiries about the finances and was told to sign a Form-990 [the form sent
into the IRS by 501-c(3) corporations] which I suspected of containing false
financial information. Madalyn O'Hair was apparently unable to simply "let
me go", and filed a series of frivolous harrassment lawsuits, wherein she
went so far as to attempt to suborn purjured testimony, among other things.
As Madalyn fired lawyers and other people for not agreeing to do what was
clearly illegal, I got a steady stream of apologies and information.
By 1989, it was clear that American Atheists was not ever going to be a
viable Atheist organization, though it had apparently become a cash-rich
nest egg for Jon and Robin. There was never any question that Jon was a
thoroughly incompetent manager; unable to deal with personnel, suppliers,
customers, finance, strategy, policy, or the need to make decisions. Jon
had often talked of going to New Zealand, and discussed elaborate plans
for
closing down the Atheist GHQ from time to time. No one who ever worked
with
Jon ever considered him capable of running the organization without Madalyn.
Robin, while bright, was far too antisocial to ever work effectively with
people; as editor of the American Atheist magazine, she could not make
anything happen without Madalyn. So, it is no surprise to learn that Jon
&
Robin have recently been identified by people in New Zealand.
-Brian Lynch
P.S.: The cable TV program featuring Mrs. O'Hair, produced by American
Atheists in Austin, Texas from 1980 through 1995, was always called
"The American Atheist Forum". To my knowledge, it was never called
"One Healthy Project"--I don't know where that name came from in your
report. The current TV show (produced by Ellen Johnson in Staten
Island, NY) is called "The Atheist Viewpoint". The Radio program
ceased new program production in 1981, although an attempt was made
to revive it in 1986. That was known as "The American Atheist Radio
Series".
-Brian Lynch
---
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Sundance Waco Film
|Date: 11 Feb 97 12:17:24
EID:d96c 224b6220
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 300b331b
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32fe5266
CHRS: IBMPC 2
David Worrell wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
DW> 08 Feb 97 11:08, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to All:
TP> * Forwarded (from: INETMAIL) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd
TP> 1.10+.
DW> Seen and TANKS lately?
You're welcome, always; of course!
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Child Killer
|Date: 11 Feb 97 12:28:44
EID:67b3 224b6380
MSGID: 1:229/622 330065fd
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 05 Feb 97 08:58:10 John Musselwhite wrote to Marilyn Burge...
JM> "God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is "no"."
Yeah, we seem to have heard that before. It would be more accurate if
you replaced the "sometimes" with an "always".
Your kindly god seems to particularly enjoy saying "no!" to pleading
children in the leukemia ward.
Why don't you worship Adolf Eichmann - he seems to have more compassion
and empathy than your god.
.JdB
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: Canadian Politics
|Date: 08 Feb 97 21:05:12
EID:6faf 2248a8a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 330074db
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 16 Jan 97 15:55:52 Paul Davis wrote to Jan deBoer...
PD> On 6 Jan 97, Jan deBoer was discussing
PD> "Canadian Politics" with Judith Bandsma.
PD> Hi Jan :)
ML>> ... Although, any language where "Ook" is a real word is to be
JB>> Ik ook.
Jd> Eh?
PD> It's Dutch. Translates as: I also.
Ya, I knew that. I was pretending to be a Canadian by saying 'Eh'.
PD> Isn't "deBoer" a Dutch rooted name?
Ya, ya.
PD> Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
A defrocked agnostic.
.JdB
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Keeping your cool
|Date: 11 Feb 97 07:39:12
EID:f611 224b3ce0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 330074dc
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Feb 97 21:56:28 Ed Mills wrote to Jan deBoer...
EM> Add a small, short-duty-cycle compressor to flash-chill the
EM> cavity with a blast from a small air cylinder?
Hmmm...sort of defeats the one moving part simplicity.
EM> Little Panaflo