God Damned Fundies!
|From: David Worrell
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 21 Feb 97 11:53:48
EID:da57 22555ea0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330d8d3b
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 330792f4
PID: GED3 2.5
16 Feb 97 18:06, Ken Young wrote to Marilyn Burge:
KY>> Seems that when this was more of a Christian society, things were
KY>> a lot better.
MB>> Better for whom? You mean back in the days of lynchings, Jim
MB>> Crow laws, and all that? I repeat: better for whom?
KY> Better for society in general. I am not saying life was perfect, just
KY> better in comparison.
I see. Life was generally better when those dirty "coloreds" were kept in
their place, right? Life was generally better when women were unable to
vote, right? Life was generally better when children worked 10+ hour shifts
in factories, right?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 21 Feb 97 12:00:23
EID:da57 22556000
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330d8e87
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 330a5dfc
PID: GED3 2.5
18 Feb 97 20:57, Ken Young wrote to Fredric Rice:
KY> Yes, when gays kept it quiet, it was much better. They were still
KY> around, but who needs to advertise their sexual orientation? And, at
Have you ever kissed your girlfriend/wife in public? Have you ever held
hands with her? Why did you feel the need to advertise your sexual orientation
like that?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Fundies
|Date: 21 Feb 97 12:01:21
EID:7e28 22556020
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330d8eaf
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 330b89c4
PID: GED3 2.5
19 Feb 97 18:16, Ken Young wrote to Rod Swift:
RS>> If you are so set against the idea that no *other* God can exist,
RS>> why are YOU here?
KY> SO that you can know that truth, as well.
Why don't you answer his question, fundyboy?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 21 Feb 97 12:02:08
EID:bd3d 22556040
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330d8eda
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 330b8d28
PID: GED3 2.5
19 Feb 97 18:30, Ken Young wrote to Dan Ceppa:
DC>> Provide the names of the scientists that created leukemia. Don't
DC>> forget to include in what peer-reviewed journal they published
DC>> their experiment. Also, don't forget the data that they
DC>> accumulated as they created it.
KY> Boy, you sure are stupid, aren't you? I did not say any specific
KY> people created it. I said that mankind created it. Meaning that,
KY> man's stupid choices throughout time, has caused many bad things to
KY> happen, disease, poverty, etc.
Are you saying that God did not know that we'd make these "stupid" choices?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: J.J. NEEDS TO BE
|Date: 21 Feb 97 12:02:49
EID:673a 22556040
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330d8f03
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 330bb308
PID: GED3 2.5
19 Feb 97 21:12, Ken Young wrote to Becke Boyer:
BB>>> Who is going to make David go to hell?
DG>> David will. Every person brings about his or her
DG>> own eternal destiny.
DG>> God knows who will and will not be saved, but we
DG>> do have a free will to
DG>> choose to follow Him or not in this life.
BB>> And if he chooses not to go?
KY> Everyone that does not choose God, chooses to go to Hell.
Nope. I choose neither. What's going to happen to me?
KY> -+- Maximus 3.01
KY> + Origin: Rabbit Hutch (1:270/420)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Clint Eastwood on Waco
|Date: 21 Feb 97 12:03:17
EID:a5b5 22556060
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330d8f29
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 30d2931a
PID: GED3 2.5
20 Feb 97 22:54, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to All:
TP> -+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+---
TP> NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
Do they have any TANKS?
---
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 21 Feb 97 15:25:05
EID:9d35 22557b20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330dbe51
-> On 16 Feb 97 13:17:30, Ken Young got back to David Worrell
KY> torturous screams of agony when they dug too deep
KY> in the earth.. Now,
KY> if that is so, could it be Hell? If not, what are
DW> I wanted to make damn sure you saw this :)
KY> Yeah, like the theory that we came from apes, sounds any better.
Just what color is the the sky in your world, Ken? Your
proposal above is ludicrous, and that's being nice to
your stupid premise.
As to Evolutionary Theory, you don't even have a clue. You
are following the dictates of your masters rather than the
facts and evidence that support the theory.
... Rule 1-C of Creationism: Claim evidence...then quote the ICR.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: You forgot to answer this...
|Date: 21 Feb 97 15:30:20
EID:fb08 22557bc0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330dbf8c
-> On 16 Feb 97 21:50:34, Ken Young got back to Martin Goldberg
MG> force, you first need to show that that force exists
MG> and then that we are products of it.
KY> All the proof I need is that we are here. At least until, someone can
It's not proof, Ken, it's evidence that is wanted.
MG> This is not Sunday School. We want real evidence for
MG> god, not just what you mother told you.
KY> Uh, how about what God told me?
Just how many voices do you hear inside your head, Ken? Does
your shrink know about them?
... Your god's a joke and you are his earthly image.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 21 Feb 97 19:52:36
EID:1c3c 22559e80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330dfd04
-> On 16 Feb 97 19:12:07, ROBERT CURRY got back to DAN CEPPA
JB> And I suppose there is no "smallest nonzero number," either?
JB> (*chuckle*)
DC> For once, John, you supposed right.
RC> It is much easier to get lots of laughs from our Quantum Bait Boy
RC> when you don't take him at all seriously, isn't it?
He's becoming rather hilarious in that light. Right now, I'm
enjoying his arguments about Hector not agreeing with Mark
Himes. It just doesn't get any better than that, or can it?
RC> Careful with those origin lines, now, or he might consult his
RC> lawyer and keep records of your teasing him! Or worse, he'll
I think I'd best put one on retainer. That's if I can find one
that won't laugh too hard.
RC> drop his monstrous ego on you.
That could hurt. Perhaps he should go on a diet.
... Faith: an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: Sacrifice kids for religion
|Date: 22 Feb 97 01:52:15
EID:8c26 22560e80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e514f
Xianity isn't the only religion killing their kids for god:
2/19/97 Peninsula Daily News, Port Angeles, WA
FATHER ADMITS KILLING CHILDREN OVER RELIGION
(AP)
----------------
NEWARK, N.J. -- In a surprise admission on the day of his
murder trial, a man sobbed as he told the judge how he
strangled his 12-year-old daughter and killed his
10-year-old son during a custody battle over their
religious upbringing.
"I held my hands around her neck for about five minutes
with my face pressed to hers," Avi Kostner said Tuesday
in court.
"I cried..'Please forgive me. Please God forgive me.'"
Kostner said he drugged the children and put them in
the back of his car. He killed the girl after she awoke
but said he couldn't bring himself to strangle the boy,
so he gave him more of a trnquilizer. He also used a
hose to fill the car with its exhaust fumes.
Kostner, a taxi driver and part-time Hebrew teacher,
surprised even his own lawyer w3hen he suddenly asked
to address the court. He then pleaded guilty and
confessed to the killings, whcih came during a
battle over custody and whether to raise the children
as Jews.
================================================
... Tagline Deleted: Nothing funny about this shit.
... Real men don't abuse children.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 22 Feb 97 01:34:06
EID:d176 22560c40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e4d0e
-> On 16 Feb 97 19:25:30, Richard Smith got back to Dan Ceppa
DW> The Klan is just as Christian as you are, bozo.
ky> When one goes against basic beliefs of Christianity,
ky> they are not a Christian.
RS> But you said in an earlier post that Xtians who
RS> sodomize small boys are still Xtian:
DC> Like all fundys, he forgets what he posts.
RS> `How dare you damned atheists archive my writings!!!'
Yes, it's just sooooo hateful, especially when they have
to eat their own words.
> Yes. Of course, just ebcause one sins, does not
> necessarily mean they stop being a Christian. But yes, if
DC> That's the damning quote that he forgot about.
RS> Yep. Real humanitarian.
RS> `Father Sebastion, will you kindly shuck me an altar boy?'
"Brother Bahtazar, go roll your own!"
RS> ... According to Ken Young, Xtians who sodomize children are still
RS> Xtians. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Getting into the tagline business, I see!
... Science & education, the world's most effective fundycide
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Critical Thinking
|Date: 22 Feb 97 01:39:07
EID:0ec2 22560ce0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e4e3b
-> On 18 Feb 97 22:12:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Richard Smith
DG> I deplore your accusations.
We all deplore your lack of etiquette in not fucking quoting
anything the other person said.
DG> I felt that the sender was comparing all Christians to the likes of
DG> Adolf Hitler.
And, just where are the quotes that you deplore, Darryl, Darryl
and Darryl?
... "Can't quote, as his brain's gone. He's Djed, Jim!"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Damned Shoes
|Date: 22 Feb 97 01:41:38
EID:14bf 22560d20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e4ed2
-> On 19 Feb 97 06:21:24, Richard Smith got back to All
RS> Hmmm . . . Incubus, the Official Footware of the Harpy
RS> League . . .
Perhaps it should be the Succubus instead?
... MACARONI NETWORK: Oodles of noodles for Jesus!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 22 Feb 97 01:46:22
EID:7dcc 22560dc0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e4fee
-> On 16 Feb 97 19:36:34, Richard Smith got back to Dan Ceppa
ky> Brine a fundy
RS> Eeeewwww, born again gerkins . . .
DC> Close: The correct spelling is 'jerk-ins'.
RS> Well, that's not something I exactly relish . . .
DC> That' salsa can say about it? Do try to ketchup!
RS> What'sa matter, don't think I can pass mustard? I am NOT
RS> margarine-al at all . . .
That was butter. I may even condiment you on your response.
... "Ken Young is the Energizer Duck." K-Dub
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Moin Hallo Hi
|Date: 22 Feb 97 01:51:33
EID:bf23 22560e60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e5125
-> On 18 Feb 97 12:31:52, Karen Davis got back to Dan Ceppa
KD> On (16 Feb 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Stefan Schaa...
DC> Is that the equivalent of our HS or college level German courses
KD> 11th form English would be about equivalent to a mid level college
KD> literature course taught in the foreign language. Maybe not QUITE so
Thanks. It's tough to equate different educational systems. As
it is, I'm having "fun" trying to get my local system to
actually teach kids.
KD> ... Real men don't abuse children.
I which I had that one when I send my message to ALL in this
packet. In fact, I will re-edit it and add a second tagline.
... Grab the back of your T.V. set and feel the power of the Lord!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: most Xians only "iffy"
|Date: 22 Feb 97 01:54:34
EID:e254 22560ec0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e51da
-> On 19 Feb 97 04:26:08, Mark O'Neill got back to Steve Quarrella
SQ> they're so preoccupied with Catholicism. This Polish guy has got
SQ> -some- charisma. :-/
MO> I must have missed something somewhere? What Polish guy?
The Pope. And, I'm still upset that he is of Polish descent.
... The Popemobile: proof prayer doesn't work.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 22 Feb 97 02:50:50
EID:7499 22561640
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e5f0a
-> On 19 Feb 97 13:29:44, Ken Young got back to Dan Ceppa
KY> But what facts are concerned?
DC> None that you have ever provided, as you have yet to do so.
KY> As I keep saying, prove how the world got here,
The earth revolves around the sun once every 365 1/4 revolutions
of the earth. If you weren't attached to it, you would be here
right now.
KY> and how we got here,
My parents had sex. What did yours do?
KY> and I will do my best to prove that God exists.
How many times do you have to be told that it's not proof
that is asked of you but EVIDENCE?
... "Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something." PBr
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 22 Feb 97 02:54:40
EID:94bc 225616c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e5ff0
-> On 18 Feb 97 15:57:16, Ken Young got back to Fredric Rice
FR> Oh, you know... when innocent women were being burned,
FR> Jews were being burned and disemboweled, niggers knew
FR> their place, faggets were safely in the closet, girls
FR> never had abortions -- they just went away to visit a
FR> sick Aunt for a year.
KY> Funnym I don't seem to recall being for some of that stuff.
What stuff above were you in favor of, Kenny?
KY> Yes, when gays kept it quiet, it was much better. They were still
KY> around, but who needs to advertise their sexual orientation? And, at
You do, or you would not have made that statement. What are
you afraid off?
KY> least there were less abortions, back then.
And you facts to show this are:
... Reality is what is. Supernatural is what isn't.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:00:49
EID:4e68 22561800
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e6161
-> On 16 Feb 97 13:14:02, Ken Young got back to David Worrell
DW> Then why must we eat?
KY> Come on, a little intelligence would be nice.
Try providing some, if you can.
KY> I didn't mean you will never get hungry, but that it was never
KY> intended for people to be malnourished. if we would believe, He would
KY> provide for all.
Try getting your omni-impotent god to miraculously provide food
for those starving in Ethiopia.
... The Church hates a thinker like a robber hates a cop.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:03:47
EID:4e68 22561860
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e6213
-> On 16 Feb 97 21:54:08, Ken Young got back to Dan Ceppa
KY> racist.. I haven't said one thing against blacks yet.
DC> Also, notice his use of the word, 'yet'. Rather a big slip
KY> Not really, I knew what I was saying..
You sure as hell didn't know what you were typing. Rather
Freudian of you.
KY> You haven't seen anything
KY> racist by me yet, because you never will.
Ther you go again, Mr Slip.
KY> WHy would I disapprove of someone because they are black?
Why would you disapprove of someone because they are gay?
... "They must have been praying to some cheap, off-brand Lord." J. Vee
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:09:37
EID:4e68 22561920
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e6371
-> On 19 Feb 97 13:30:48, Ken Young got back to Dan Ceppa
KY> our own problems, including leukemia. God did not create leukemia,
KY> but more than likely, mankind did.
DC> Provide the names of the scientists that created leukemia. Don't
DC> forget to include in what peer-reviewed journal they published
KY> Boy, you sure are stupid, aren't you? I did not say any specific
KY> people created it.
You said, "most likely, mankind did." Therefore, someone had
to do the work in creating it. Who are those people, Kenny?
KY> man's stupid choices throughout time, has caused many bad things to
KY> happen, disease, poverty, etc.
Stupidy causes a disease to be created? Then, you must be the
current version of Typhoid Mary. Go autoclave yourself before
you infect anyone else.
... "Drop dead!" --- Motto, Human Surplus League.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:15:45
EID:4e68 225619e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e64e1
-> On 19 Feb 97 13:32:44, Ken Young got back to Dan Ceppa
RS> don't know the name of your God?
KY> Yep. His name is God.
DC> 'God' is a job description. What's his name?
KY> Nah.. His job is "Lord," one of His names is God.
That's nice. Too bad you don't have a clue as to his
name nor the job you gave your imaginary friend.
lord
noun lords
1 : one with authority over others
2 : British nobleman
verb lordùed; lordùed; lordùing; lords
: put on airs
Now, run along and research why this country does not have
lords, Lords or "Lords".
... "Your god has made an ass out of you.": Larry Meyering
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Have enough already, dickbrain?
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:20:35
EID:48cb 22561a80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e6603
-> On 20 Feb 97 07:23:21, Mark O'Neill got back to Abram Garcia
MO> Where are you, you cowardly little prick? You wanted the opportunity
MO> to educate the masses, so, now's your chance. Get that pious finger
of
So far, it seems like your warm invitation to Abram has not
been acknowledged or accepted by him.
Such a pity, as it sounds like he had talent.
Oh well, you can always visit the washed up has-been back
in the minors.
... "There was a Man who split time in half, BC and AD": Al Tufano
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:27:46
EID:0cea 22561b60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e67b2
-> On 16 Feb 97 21:55:52, Ken Young got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> Are our public schools actually doing that poor a job?
DC> As the xians try more an more to ruin the school system, I
KY> Christians?!? I keep on saying you people aren't this stupid, but it
We aren't. You are.
KY> is seeming more all the time, that I have been wrong. It is the
KY> liberal atheists
What about the conservative atheists? Did they ruin it as well?
KY> several occultists that have ruined the school
What occultists are you talking about? You are one of them, xian.
KY> system, but forcing their beliefs down the kids' throats.
That's what your cult does, pink boy.
KY> Yep.. The education system has really gone down the tubes.. And
KY> could it possibly be because we have taken all traces of Christianity
KY> out of the schools?
That's a start to making it better. Got any more good suggestions
to keep the occult out of education?
... The death of dogma is the birth of reality.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: J.J. NEEDS TO BE
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:32:30
EID:8cd2 22561c00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e68ce
-> On 19 Feb 97 16:12:24, Ken Young got back to Becke Boyer
BB> And if he chooses not to go?
KY> Everyone that does not choose God, chooses to go to Hell.
You seem to worship a fucking egotistical petty tyrant. Next
time you talk to the son of a bitch, tell him to shove your
head up his ass and ask him to fart.
... Yes, I read the bible. Nice pack of lies that you believe in....
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: READING INCOMPREHENSION
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:36:13
EID:c515 22561c80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e69ad
-> On 19 Feb 97 13:34:50, Ken Young got back to Dan Ceppa
>>>KY> What the Bible says..[sic]
DR> . . . depends on who's reading it.
DC> I'm beginning to wonder if Kenny can read.
KY> Well, if I couldn't, it would just be proof of yet another miracle,
The miracle is that you found someone to aid you in your attempts
at correspondence.
KY> proving the power of God. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to read these
KY> posts, and reply.
It's those Darwin monkeys that you had to hire to do that
for you. As it is, they are making fun of you by typing
in "proof" every time you should be providing evidence.
Got any?
... Cannibalism: see Eucharist (from Diderot's Encyclopedia)
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: You forgot to answer this...
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:41:08
EID:fb08 22561d20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 330e6ad4
-> On 16 Feb 97 13:08:52, Ken Young got back to Marilyn Burge
MB> doesn't work that way. Please take a basic logic course before you
MB> get laughed clear outta here.
KY> If what I have seen so far is any example, you guys do not have the
KY> best success in laughing the Christians out of here..
What you fail to realize is that we don't want you to leave.
You are providing us with the straightlines that provide
those laughs.
KY> My evidence is merely the fact that we did not just appear out of
KY> nothing.
You were produced when, at a fertile time, your daddy fucked
your mommy instead of just getting a hand-job that night.
... Creationists fear evolution for they same reason they fear reality.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: David Worrell
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: helpless moron from oz
|Date: 22 Feb 97 00:22:00
EID:a3f2 225602c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330e3c40
REPLY: 1:3603/210 371aced1
PID: GED3 2.5
20 Feb 97 02:19, ROBERT CURRY wrote to LAURIE APPLETON:
RC> I trust you're not indicative of Australians in general. No country
RC> could *possibly* be so characteristically stupid and survive.
We've done a pretty damn good job of it here.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: In the news
|Date: 22 Feb 97 00:24:56
EID:5e61 22560300
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330e3da9
PID: GED3 2.5
Trinity Broadcasting Network has just canceled Pat Boone's gospel program.
It seems many viewers were disturbed by his "metal" tribute album.
Don't these silly fucks have anything better to do with their time? I've
heard one of Pat's tributes. Imagine Guns'n'Roses as a swing band, and you've
got the gist of Pat's album.
I can't wait to hear what Pat thinks of all this. I could almost hope it
would be the catalyst that causes him to seriously examine his faith, but
I somehow doubt that. We'll probably get a Jimmy Swaggartish tear filled
apology, instead.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: Chri
|Date: 22 Feb 97 00:37:45
EID:0488 225604a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 330e4033
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 30dcb100
PID: GED3 2.5
21 Feb 97 10:01, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to Rod Swift:
RS>> I want to know. Are you gay?
TP> No; but if I was, I wouldn't be 'in the closet.'
We already knew that. You'd be in a TANK.
TP> I advocate consistency to the premis that no person may INITIATE
TP> physical force (or make a credible threat of such initiation) against
TP> the person or justly acquired possessions of another.
Unless they are in a TANK.
TP> I believe that
TP> everything in history, and current affairs, that looks like a free
TP> civilized society uses this premis; regardless of what else is
TP> included.
Especially TANKS.
TP> To the extent that a society is consistent to this
TP> 'physical aggression truce' it is, in my opinion, a free civilized
TP> society.
But only if everyone has a TANK.
---
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 21 Feb 97 23:59:00
EID:ffdb 2255bf60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 75ac4a02
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 3309283a
On Feb 17 22:55 97, Ken Young of 1:270/420 wrote:
DW>> The Klan is just as Christian as you are, bozo.
JH>> Jesus would be real impressed by his casual disinterest
JH>> in injustice.
JH>>
JH>> "Feed the hungry? Care for the sick and homeless? Not
JH>> me, I'm too busy following Jesus..."
KY> Now, let's see.. When did I say I wouldn't help the needy?
Hell, I don't remember which particular injustice wasn't spiritual
enough for your tastes; all I remember was you were your usual
self-absorbed shitty little self.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: CHRISTIAN Identy
|Date: 22 Feb 97 01:20:24
EID:8ffc 22560a80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 75ad1353
> [obligatoy quote omitted because I nuked the original message
> in an overzealous fit of disk housekeeping.]
WOW! Thanks for telling me that "Pastor Pete Peters" had a
web page. Wheeee....
Among other things I found this jewel (the prefix to a sermon
entitled "The Confessions of a Jew":
: "Jews" want to disarm Americans?
: There is a "Jewish" conspiracy against America?
: "Jews" control America's media?
: "Jews" have a death grip on America's government?
: "Jews" are left-wing, liberal, anti-gunners?
: "Jews" use the cry of anti-semitism as a weapon to suppress truth?
: "Jews" prevent a free press in America?
: "Jews" are against freedom?
: "Jews" want total people control?
: "Jews" are liars?
: "Jews" want to put Americans under tyranny?
: "Jews" are responsible for America's problems
: "Jews" must leave America if America is to survive?
Needless to say, Pastor Peter's answer to all of the above
questions is "yes".
And then there was another page (www.white-christian-nation.org)
that came up when I did a search on his name. Going to have to
check it out next.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: John-boy's last chance.
|Date: 22 Feb 97 11:58:19
EID:a74d 22565f40
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 22565f49
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
Pay close attention to this message, Bait-boy, as it explains all your problems
in the nearest thing to a nutshell available on Holysmoke, together with
enough
exposition for even the densest metafundy to figure out what it means.
You
_are_ being tested, so be sure you read the whole thing before placing your
bovine hoof in your crackpot's mouth:
JB>>> John Brawley's crackpot phrasing:
JB>>> "That distance, less than which, two points coalesce and become one
JB>>> point."
HP>> A geometry question? If there is any distance between the points,
HP>> there are an infinite number of points lying on the line between the
HP>> two points, John.
JB> I claim some of my needed concepts don't _have_ "standard math"
JB> equivalents
I'll try to help you out one more time. Your question is meaningless in
a
standard mathematical reference because, like the moronic metafundy you
are,
you've insisted on asking the wrong fucking question.
You must give your "points" some thickness and even a bit of attraction
to make
the question meaningful, in which case they aren't points anymore, they're
"particles." Therefore, you first mathematically describe your particles
and
how they interact with each other, and the answer to the minimum distance
they
can have between them will arise naturally from that description.
^^^THIS IS SIMPLE STUFF, BAIT-BOY. READ IT AGAIN. AND AGAIN. SEE IF YOU
CAN
GET IT TO SOAK IN AND MAKE SENSE.
Yes, that means the math will get much more difficult. Deal with it, pink
boy.
BTW, this is your last chance. If you can't understand this rather simple
explanation of why you want particles rather than points, I give up on you
as a
thick-headed crackpot idiot who can't learn anything even when spoonfed.
I had
written you several other replies at this sitting, but I'll be deleting
them.
If you can't find enough neurons to grasp this "point" (ROFL!), there's
little
sense in bothering with you, outside of throwing rotten tomatoes at you.
JB> Robert bitches I don't use "standard math language."
As well he should, you crap-brained crackpot! I've watched Robert try to
lead
you toward a little mathematical enlightenment, and I've watched _you_ blow
up
your ego-doll and hump on it instead of listening to him.
When your arguments don't use "standard math language," it's _always_ because
of
the idiot crackpot "theorist" who can't figure out what question he really
wants
to ask. You're like a winehead who throws boulders onto a piano keyboard
and
complains that the music doesn't sound very sweet, then refuses to listen
when
people tell him that the problem is that he just doesn't know how to play
the
piano.
JB> Give me the 'formal math language' direct and unambiguous equivalent
for
JB> "that distance, less than which, two points coalesce and become one
JB> point." Else, grant that it doesn't exist.
We'll readily grant that, in math, two points don't "coalesce" unless they
are
precisely the same point (in which case you ain't got two points, bozo).
IOW,
we readily grant that your question is totally meaningless, and that you
are a
moron. Now, _particles_, that can be a different subject, as explained
to you
above. IOW, once again, you're asking the wrong question and bitching that
you
aren't getting a satisfactory answer -- big surprise!
HP>> You are actually asking "what's the number just barely greater than
zero
JB> Don't tell _me_ what I am "actually asking."
But I did, John-boy, and it was an accurate statement. You are attempting
to
describe a particle as a point, as well, which is yet another mistake on
your
part. Note that this miscommunication was _your_ fault. And I'm quite
surprised that, even after reading a breakdown of your question in simpler
terms, you are unable to grasp what _you_ were saying! Your total
misunderstanding of both QM and math is quite astonishing, since those are
the
two tools you _must_ be able to use to prove your crackpot "theories!"
You see, your problem is this: You used purely mathematical terms to ask
a
purely mathematical question, and that question was meaningless. The problem,
of course, is that you didn't _really_ intend to ask a purely mathematical
question, nor use purely mathematical terms, as described above in the
discussion of _particles_ as opposed to points.
Points are purely mathematical constructs, John-boy. You don't want points,
you
want _particles_ -- like the elementary particles of physics, with size
and
other properties. You see, _size_ and some sort of attractive force is
required
to cause particles to "coalesce." Even the very defintion of "coalesce"
would
tell you this, if you actually understood what you were trying to ask:
coalesce intr. v. 1. To grow together; fuse.
2. To come together so as to form one whole; unite.
Mathematical points cannot "coalesce," brickbrain. Particles, which can
be
described mathematically (yes, even using "standard math," you moron), could
indeed have such an ability, though.
IOW, you're a flaming moron ijit. You have miscommunicated yourself all
along,
and tried to blame your own ignorance on any and every one except the person
who
was responsible: yourself.
How were you able to make this mistake and not detect it? Robert pointed
that
out (though you keep hiding from the answer :-): Your hugely bloated and
distorted ego, which somehow grows despite the fact that, at the core, there's
nothing to cause it to inflate. At all.
JB> And: I have no "'gods hiding in nonlocality' theory."
Yeah, we know, we're just waiting for you to actually figure that out.
Looks
like it'll be a long wait, as you don't even have the brains to understand
that
you're asking the wrong questions of yourself, and others.
Until you wake up, you are dismissed as the incompetent crackpot that you
are,
John-boy.
For the last time, unless you wake up,
Your old pal and tormentor, Hec
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *
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|From: Tom Huber
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Mormongate
|Date: 21 Feb 97 20:54:00
EID:9e08 2255a6c0
MSGID: 1:115/477.0 8A990D02
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 94-0102
SQ> JD>> Wanna borrow my copy of "The Mormon Murders"?????
> TH> Note the wording: *conviction* of crimes... In other words, it must
be
> TH> by law, not by someone making an allegation that wasn't upheld in
a
> TH> court of law. Books like the one you mention often contain such
> TH> allegations that people are willing to believe... Barnum wasn't wrong.
SQ>You have some different facts about the Mark Hofmann case? What are
the
>allegations that "The Mormon Murders" makes that in your opinion are
>incorrect?
Allegations are one thing, but convictions are what I was addressing.
You seem to have missed that. I can make allegations all day long, but
unless I can prove them in a court of law, they remain allegations, and
unproven. They can easily be considered to be fabrications, fiction,
speculation, or theory.
If you want to consider something that a lot of us have been exposed to
more than any of us (possibly) want, I don't know if O.J. killed Ron
Brown or not. There is evidence that suggests that he did, but there is
also evidence that throws the whole thing into question. As long as such
questions remain, and O.J. does not admit to the murder(s), then we
can't really say, one way or another. We can give our opinion, but
that's all that it is - an opinion. And still open to question.
The original statement that started this thread was that the church does
not allow person convicted of fraud to remain members. The key word is
and continues to be "convicted."
>While I'm at it, how was Gordon Hinckley, a man who (today, in his function
>as president of the LDS church) apparently speaks to God on a daily basis,
>fooled by Hofmann's forgeries? Why would God allow "his" church to be
>embarrassed so?
Consider this: If Judas was known to God (who is supposed to be
all-knowing), then why did Jesus choose him as one of the twelve? Why
did God allow a traitor from within the ranks to turn his Son over to
the authorities for a trial, torture, and ultimately, death?
Why does God allow suffering in the world, if He is supposed to love us?
Why does he allow people like O.J. to get away with murder, if justice
is to be served? Why do little children, who have done nothing to harm
anyone in their lives, have to die of starvation?
If you can answer those questions, then maybe you'll have the answers to
your questions about the Hoffman incident.
>BTW, did you know that Orrin Hatch used to beat up his sister while Hatch
>was living with his brother-in-law?
I really don't care. I don't care for Hatch, and I'm not from Utah. He's
a politician. What else needs to be said?
Tom
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Tom Huber
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: R Daily Xtian Persecutio
|Date: 21 Feb 97 21:02:00
EID:5d38 2255a840
MSGID: 1:115/477.0 8A990D03
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 94-0102
FR>th> Richard, if it was "the Mormon" in him that "made him do this," then
the
>th> man is self-deceived. I have my doubts that this ya-hoo is a member
of
>th> the Mormon church, or if he is, that he is active. If he is active,
and
>th> is guilty of the crimes that you have reported, then this needs to
be
>th> brought to the attention of the local Mormon leaders. He is certainly
>th> *not* living according to the standards of the Mormons, no matter what
>th> he may claim, and the kind of abuse that he has heaped upon his wife
is
>th> totally out of line with Mormon teachings.
FR>Ah, yes. The ole "Not True Mormon" dodge. The desire to demand that
all
>the Mormon criminals are incapable of doing what they did and thus the
onus
>of correcting the problem falls upon the atheists.
So, you fabricated the whole thing?
You've come up with an interesting piece of fiction. If it (your story)
is true, then there are answers and justice, which have absolutely
nothing to do with religion.
Abuse is abuse, no matter where you live, or who is involved. If a wife
is abused by her husband, regardless of whether he is atheist or
religious, she has the right to turn to the law for help.
From some of the other responses to your allegations that I've read in
this echo, evidently others do not believe your story. At this point,
because you are unwilling to do what is essentially right, I am now
thinking that you have produced no more than a red (i.e., ripe) herring.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:04:43
EID:90a6 2254a080
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d03a6
REPLY: 1:102/735.0 22525dc8
MK> "If one's religion is a choice, so is one's shoe size."
Speaking of IQ and shoe size, I saw Prewett's page a day or two ago. The
people in the lab hadn't believed me. One good thing about the guy...he's
gawddamned consistant.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:15:26
EID:5057 2254a1e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d0c73
REPLY: 1:124/9005 330a0c19
SQ> And don't forget to act offended and question the integrity of
SQ> the person who catches you. Just to be safe, ask them whether or
SQ> not they believe in God.
Think I'll write a macro.
MG>> Last week. I will inform himthat you are up and running.
SQ> I told him that via the Internet. I just added another point --
SQ> strangely enough, 9005.21 -- so we can do this again. :)
HA HA HA HA...you'll be sorry.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:16:37
EID:2d6d 2254a200
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d1070
REPLY: 1:124/9005 330a0c98
SQ> I am in complete agreement. By invoking an old book of Middle
SQ> Eastern mythology, they can transfer responsibility for their
SQ> attitudes. "Hey, I'm just telling you what God thinks about your
SQ> homosexuality." Yeah? Why can't God give us a more updated
SQ> opinion?
Fundyism is fanaticism and as such is a black and white thing. Basic things
like hating homosexuals never change.
SQ> In any event, we don't hate Fundamentalist Christians: We just
SQ> hate the crime of Fundamentalist Christianity. Nudge nudge, wink
SQ> wink.
I dont hate them. I just with they'd take a walk down the center of LBJ.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Direct Dialling
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:18:28
EID:7aaf 2254a240
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d1345
REPLY: 1:124/9005 330a0d0b
SQ> I still laugh at the guy, thinking how he thinks that the Vatican
SQ> is a favourite organization of mine.
Did anybody ever ask him what bible verses were instructing him to hate
the catholic church?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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sq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: amazon.com
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:19:39
EID:c727 2254a260
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d14fc
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 33091638
DW> Maybe you used an alias? Hmmm... Bertrand Russell, maybe? Nah...
DW> Wait! I've got it! You're Tycho Brahe, right?
He's got the metal nose.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:20:26
EID:6fff 2254a280
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d19a4
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 894d1981
LA> (Dr Richard Dawkins (Department of Zoology, Oxford
LA> University, UK), "The necessity of Darwinism". New
LA> Scientist, vol.94, 15 April 1982, p.130.)
Save this horseshit for someone that believes it, Appleton.
Not only are you stupid enough to continue spouting your lies here, I see
that you spout the same lies in front of other echoes with identical audiences.
I don't talk to morons.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:22:05
EID:6fff 2254a2c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d1cc1
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 894d1b11
LA> Ever hear of the DNA code? Highly complex codes don't
LA> arise by themselves anymore than intelligent communications
The DNA code is not complex, Dipshit. Figure it out. 64 codons coding
for 20 amino acids.
Maybe this is too complex for your simple mind, but no someone with a bit
of intelligence.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: Evidences for God
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:24:11
EID:00b4 2254a300
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d229a
REPLY: 1:3800/49 000b0b43
DR> Well put, Brother. Repeatedly the evidence is submitted and
DR> repeatedly they fail to see it or admit that it "is"
DR> evidence. Yet they see not that the beliefs they themselves
DR> espouse require more faith than ours ever would.
Look up "evidence" in the dictionary. You obviously do nto know what it
is. Your postings show this.
Btw, did I tell you about the PhD chemist I know who happens to be a lay
preacher. He says there is no god.
Just food for thought.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA....
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: infinitesimals
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:41:44
EID:4a1f 2254a520
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d54e1
REPLY: 1:3603/210 360fd03b
RC> Now aren't you glad you asked? }:-)
You bet.
It's just that years ago, when iwaslearning the dynamics of packing chromotography
columns with spherical media of uniform size, that ordered packing of the
media would take up 66.6% (isn't that convenient) of the space in the container.
Seeing that you could place a spere in a container and know how much space
sould be taken up by this percentage of the volume...wait...now I see the
problem...the volume of the speres is not dependant on the percent of empty
volume taken up.
Think I'll just go back to crystallizing penecillin binding proteins.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be sa
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:49:21
EID:19ad 2254a620
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d5ac1
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 330a5ffe
MG>> I'll try to pass this along tonight if he isn't "asleep"
MG>> again.
DC> 8 o'clock? Just how old is the rock-banger really!
Too old, evidently.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: My Winter Weekend
|Date: 20 Feb 97 20:50:46
EID:ed8c 2254a640
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d5fec
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 33087e7f
MG>> He has lost his feed and is lookign for another, so if
MG>> anyone wants to volunteer, I'll pass it on. Anyone who is a
MG>> sysop and can deliver a BW packet or at the very most set up
MG>> as a point would be appreciated by his majesty.
JM> If he gets cheap rates to Canada he can use The Keyboard BBS.
JM> If it's REALLY a problem, I could pull BW packets for him and
JM> attach them to an EMail message.
I already offered to do this for him, gawd knows why. The place is much
quieter.
Actually, I don't get much of an answer at his home this week. He must
be in Ahfghanistan or some other garden spot.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Alternative Or Straw A
|Date: 20 Feb 97 21:00:34
EID:63cb 2254a800
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 759d7674
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 33078f98
RS>> It isn't that Martin isn't trying to have a nice
RS>> conversation with you.
dr>> Yes... it is, _Goober_!
RS> Actually, his name is Martin, not _Goober_.
After calling Ken Young "Jelly" for a week, I'm not sure that his calling
you or I "goober" has any meaning. I sugget that we send him to Flame.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: READING INCOMPREHENSI
|Date: 21 Feb 97 13:31:59
EID:f496 22556be0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 75a68a9b
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 330a6838
DW> Imagine people who find Southern Baptists just a little bit too
DW> liberal, and you've just pictured an Independent Baptist. These
DW> congregations exist totally on their own, with no allegiance to
DW> any governing body of any sort. Their theology can, and does,
DW> take some interesting twists.
I always love it when the Southern Baptist Convention meets and some of
them try to get a "moderate" elected as president.
Their idea of moderate is a bit to the right of Rush.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Another molesting xian
|Date: 21 Feb 97 13:37:40
EID:f774 22556ca0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 75a696b0
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 330b842a
DC>>>> agree about the eating of tripe. There are just some
DC>>>> things that no one should have to stomach.
MG>>>> It takes intestinal fortitude.
DC>>> I'll save your comment for the appendix of my next book.
MG>>> Another high liver, I see.
DC>> There are one duodenum around, I think.
MG>> It gets bladder and bladder...
DC> Just colon can we keep this shit up?
I'll let you know enemanute.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Randi
|Date: 22 Feb 97 19:49:56
EID:d49e 22569e20
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f4fbb
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3308baa6
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Lunae dies February 17 1997, Dixit Dan Ceppa ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> And remember the 2-hour A&E Special, "Scams, Schemes & Scoundrels"
on
SQ>> Easter Sunday, March 30th. I host a program on famous hoaxes and
DC> Got a time to go with that?
Unfortunately, I don't. I'll try to keep up with things and find out when
they plan to air it, and then announce it here. March is going to be a
busy month for me, what, with the release of Stern's movie, the rerelease
of "The Godfather" and "The Empire Strikes Back," and the A&E special.
SQ>> I hope the Cottingley fairies are featured.
DC> I've never heard of them.
Check out Randi's "Flim Flam" for the whole scoop (and the pictures themselves).
In a nutshell, in the 19teens two English girls produced pictures of themselves
with fairies. Twice. They managed to fool a lot of people, including Sir
Arthur Conan Doyle, with pictures that are obviously fakes. It's pretty
much a given that the two girls photographed themselves with cut-outs of
fairies. Anyways, lots of ink has been spilt over this one.
SQ>> see the bits where the cousins finally admitted the whole thing.
Huh...I was reading in one of Randi's books yesterday that they never DID
admit the whole thing, yet some folks here told me awhile back that they
DID admit to it.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Wonder Woman Comics win
|Date: 22 Feb 97 19:57:46
EID:ffe1 22569f20
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f4fd0
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3309fc17
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Dan!
Martis dies February 18 1997, Dixit Dan Ceppa ad David Ragland:
DR>> gave it up. I've worked at a prison for the last 16 years. I've
DC> Just how many license plates did you make?
Be nice to him...he probably made yours. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Personal jabs
|Date: 22 Feb 97 19:59:20
EID:7b1f 22569f60
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5040
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Damien!
Mercurii dies February 19 1997, Dixit Damien Wellman ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> STEVEQ4.RAR will get you a PCX of the current version. It's not
SQ>> fantastic, but it gets the point across. :)
DW> And just where may I obtain this, again?
From my BBS, 972-412-8457. Leave a message for me so I can validate you.
:)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: most Xians only "iffy"
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:00:00
EID:86c0 2256a000
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5148
REPLY: 3:640/375.1 330b19f1
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Mark!
Mercurii dies February 19 1997, Dixit Mark O'Neill ad Steve Quarrella:
KY>>>> Of course, I have been told even by some Catholics, that they are
KY>>>> not Christians.
"I've been told by some people who were blue clothing that they are not
wearing blue clothing." This statement goes up into the Top 50 stupid things
I've read in this echo. That's quite an accomplishment Ken has pulled off
there.
MON> four times, and mainly for the humour content. ;-) If you can visualise
MON> a young boy with a bag of lollies and his sense of loss when the bag
MON> is empty, this is how I feel after I've read all of Jelly's posts.
A
Wish you had been here when some of the HOLYSMOKE Classic Posters were here,
like Ron Stringfellow, Charlie Ray, Phil Morrison, JBS, and others. You
can't pay for entertainment that good. :)
MON> Who knows? But we are dealing with irrational people with
MON> irrational beliefs fighting ludicrously irrational "battles". I don't
MON> think any of them actually know why this is.
I wish that they'd curb their god, and make certain he doesn't take a dump
on my lawn or try to rub up and down on my leg. :-/
SQ>> they're so preoccupied with Catholicism. This Polish guy has got
SQ>> -some- charisma. :-/
MON> I must have missed something somewhere? What Polish guy?
I was talking about how preoccupied with Catholicism our evangalical acquaintances
seem to be. The Roman Catholic church is currently headed up by a pole
by the name of Karol Wojtyla. These days (well, since September of 1978),
he calls himself "John Paul II." :)
I had someone at work a year ago getting into my hair with her Catholicism.
I got rid of her by saying "I liked the first John Paul better." :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:22:42
EID:617e 2256a2c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f55be
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 17947a96
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Dies solis February 16 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Ken Young:
KY>> to be against homosexuality? And notice, I say,
KY>> homosexuality, and not homosexuals, as there is a big
KY>> difference.
mg>> Tell us what the difference is, Jelly. How does your stinking
mg>> god punish homosexuality without punishing homosexuals.
FR> Answer the question, Jelly.
There's a shape out there, it's the shape of a square...
"Look all around! Can you find it?"
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:25:16
EID:f36c 2256a320
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5675
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 758274f0
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Martin!
Martis dies February 18 1997, Dixit Martin Goldberg ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Yeah? Well my wife's uncle is a famous US senator, so therefore,
SQ>> anything that senator says is right. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah
SQ>> nyah. The senator is also alleged to be a space alien, so that
SQ>> makes his viewpoint even MORE factual.
MG> Are you sure that he's not an INfamous US senator?
After his little go-round with "The Exorcist," you certainly MAY apply that
prefix.
MG> What are his views on making fundies do the heavy work while the rest
MG> of us look skeptically at our lemonade wondering how much BHT they
MG> put in it.
Given that Hatch is a right-wing wacko, I'd be shopping for a shovel.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:27:16
EID:228d 2256a360
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f571b
REPLY: 1:3652/1 33079658
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Jason!
Dies solis February 16 1997, Dixit Jason Harmon ad Ken Young:
KY>> Part of growing up is accepting reality, something non-Christians have
KY>> yet to do.
JH> You believe in global floods, gods, floating axeheads, dead men
JH> coming back to life, people walking on water, a universe created
JH> in six days, and virgins giving birth.
JH> And you say WE'RE not accepting reality? If your above statement
is
JH> true, Christians must be embryos.
Yet these same people have difficulty accepting the idea that monkeys suddenly
turn into human beings. I've never understood this. "Talking snakes are
OK, but it's absurd to think that monkeys suddenly turn into men overnight."
[For our brain-dead lurkers: No one other than Fundamentalist Christians
has ever asserted that monkeys suddenly become men.]
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Test
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:28:58
EID:c7e9 2256a380
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5724
REPLY: 1:3652/1 330B8624
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Jason!
Mercurii dies February 19 1997, Dixit Jason Harmon ad All:
JH> Hello, hello?
JH> Is this thing on?
Sho' nuff.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Steve Winter sees ememies everywhere
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:31:22
EID:7ff1 2256a3e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f57c1
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 1989837d
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Jovis dies February 20 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>>>> Tell him that someone you know has submitted his name to
sq>>>> the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and he's
sq>>>> going to be baptized by that church when he dies. :)
sq>> BTW, I'm not the "someone you know." You'll
sq>> have to call your folks on that one. :)
FR> I was thinking of alluding to _me_ as having "helped save" him. }:-}
You have my blessing.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Mormons ARE Christian, you ignorant bigoted fuck!
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:32:32
EID:524a 2256a400
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5826
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 19937e6a
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Jovis dies February 20 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR>> Why not learn the true origins of the Mormon cult, "Tom?"
sq>> I'd just like to see the fucking plates. :)
FR> It would be easy enough to make some.
I know that. Easier than coming up with all kinds of bullshit about where
the fucking things went. So why has nobody done it? :) Gotta wonder if
this was on Mark Hofmann's "Things to do" list.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Fiction, you nut!
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:33:36
EID:6b7f 2256a420
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5872
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 1995cf14
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Jovis dies February 20 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> I remember seeing Jay Anson's book all over the place when I was a
kid
sq>> in school. Did anybody ever write an official retraction? I was under
sq>> the impression that the Lutzes just came forth, admitted it, and that
sq>> was that.
FR> The author admitted it was a fiction yet even reprints continued to
state
FR> in the opening pages that what is contained within is a real story.
Kind of like those "Chariots of the Gods" books, Berlitz's faux pas, and
all the other stupidity that is presented as "non-fiction" (which isn't
necessarily synonymous with "fact"). "Swell."
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Sundance Waco Film
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:35:34
EID:2c36 2256a460
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f58c2
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 1995cf1b
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Jovis dies February 20 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad David Worrell:
FR> Funny thing is, if I call you from the ISDN, I can hand your CID to
FSK
FR> any damn thing I want. I got the power. (Only thing is I
lack
FR> a PCMCIA programmer to effect any real changes.) It should have presented
FR> the entire 10-digit code, though, since I was calling in from the PSTN
FR> behind a Centrex.
FR> I wonder what you got.
"I got a rock."
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: All
|Sub: Bored
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:37:16
EID:5674 2256a4a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5936
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, All!
Veneris dies February 21 1997, Dixit Christopher Hughes ad Norman Solomon:
CH> 24 states have laws outlawing sodomy, DOMA passed overwhelmingly and
was
CH> signed into law despite the fact that the law is quite blatantly
CH> unconstitutional, 17 states have passed laws trying to pre-empt Hawaii,
CH> a school board local in Plano, Texas, banned a book last year from the
CH> public elementary school for no reason other than its discussion of
the
CH> ancient Egyptian mythos...
Holy shit! I've got another user here in HOLYSMOKE!
[Welcome aboard, Christopher. :) ]
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Bored
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:38:06
EID:a8f8 2256a4c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f59cc
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Christopher!
Veneris dies February 21 1997, Dixit Christopher Hughes ad Norman Solomon:
CH> 24 states have laws outlawing sodomy, DOMA passed overwhelmingly and
was
CH> signed into law despite the fact that the law is quite blatantly
CH> unconstitutional, 17 states have passed laws trying to pre-empt Hawaii,
CH> a school board local in Plano, Texas, banned a book last year from the
CH> public elementary school for no reason other than its discussion of
the
CH> ancient Egyptian mythos...
And I still have to carry around a "Unicard" to buy liquor in the dry counties
here in the Dallas area, plus I have to drive all the way to beyond the
Rockwall-Fate border just to BUY liquor. I had an easier time buying booze
in -Salt Lake.-
CH> Then I'd suggest you get on the talk show circuit and declare loudly
that
CH> the people commiting such acts under the guise of Christianity are not
CH> true Christians(tm). I'd frankly love to see that one.
Many who would "save us" non-theists won't even bother cleaning up their
own club, making it thus more appealing to be a member. Strange priorities:
Save the heathens while the club's crooks battle on.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:42:12
EID:8b4b 2256a540
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5af0
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Christopher!
Veneris dies February 21 1997, Dixit Christopher Hughes ad Rod Swift:
CH> I still wish I'd been able to see this. Of course, I've had only
CH> two visitations at the house from the door-to-door Biblers. One
CH> from the JWs, one from the Mormons.
My wife and I have spent considerable time and effort in getting the fucks
to stop paying visits. "Someone" up in Salt Lake decided to alert the local
Mormons that Suzy Q. had moved to Texas, and for about three years, they
were a bit vehement that they had some kind of right to annoy us. She finally
told them on 12/24/95 that she didn't want them around, and for the time
being, they've stopped.
CH> Mormon #1: "Hello, I'm Elder Mott, and this is Elder
CH> We're from the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints."
"I guess that a cup of coffee is out of the question, then. We were just
going upstairs to fuck. Can you come back later?"
CH> Elder Mott: "Uh.. no.. do you really believe what you just said?"
"You don't really believe that nonsense about the golden plates, do you?"
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: In the news
|Date: 22 Feb 97 20:46:20
EID:ad10 2256a5c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f5b6f
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 330e3da9
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, David!
Saturni dies February 22 1997, Dixit David Worrell ad All:
DW> Trinity Broadcasting Network has just canceled Pat Boone's gospel program.
DW> It seems many viewers were disturbed by his "metal" tribute album.
Isn't that great? We heard his version of "Smoke on the Water" the other
night, and just about died. Maybe Pat is finally having a few cups of Reality
House brand coffee.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norman Solomon
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 22 Feb 97 13:45:12
EID:e532 22566da0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 330f55e8
REPLY: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org 9a6c5ff5
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Norman Solomon said, in a huffy tone of voice, to Judith Bandsma <=-
NS> reason whatsoever why data should be viewed as "evil", use of the data
NS> perhaps, interpretaion of the data, very possible.
Anything the religious reactionaries in this country don't like, they try
to ban "to protect children". After all, who in their right mind wants a
child to be hurt. But it's like using a shotgun to kill cockroaches.
The move to ban anything 'indecent' on the internet (to protect the kids,
of course) is just one example. Rather than encourage the use of software
that is already available that will allow a parent to block whatever level,
they would rather make sure that NOBODY sees anything.
In other words, make sure everybody is an idiot because the fact that there
are ideas and philosophies out there that don't hold the bible as literal
truth, is just too much to bear. If people get the idea that they can think
for themselves, the theocracy will never be possible.
NS> It would be very interesting to know what you (& others) think
NS> children should be sheltered from, if anything.
I don't think they should be 'sheltered' from anything. Of course you don't
teach a child to build a battleship when all he wants to do is float a
plastic dinghy in the bathtub. You search out the best materials you can
find that the child is capable of assimilating.
... Don't confuse Anatomy with Pornography.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norman Solomon
|Sub: Fundy Frolics
|Date: 22 Feb 97 17:47:46
EID:1864 22568de0
MSGID: 1:229/622 330f3142
REPLY: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org 7c077329
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Norman Solomon said, in a huffy tone of voice, to Don Martin <=-
NS> Do they have no thought whatsoever, to the pain any woman must be
NS> feeling who finds themselves having to take this option. The process
NS> must hard enough to get through without having a massive guilt trip
NS> laid on you.
Nope. The leaders of the "pro-life" movement here will not accept or
acknowledge that there is any other reason for abortion than *convenience*.
It also doesn't matter if the clinic that performs abortions also does
pregnancy testing, low cost prenatal and delivery care, PAP tests,
mammograms...ie; women's HEALTH care. And it doesn't matter if you use
that same clinic for one of their other services. You still get
harassed.
You missed it, but not that long ago we had one who was very vocal about
his belief that a 12 year old, pregnant by incestual rape, who had an
abortion, should be executed. (And that it was HER fault she was pregnant
in the first place.) Unfortunately, this belief is held widely enough that
none of us here was anything more than disgusted. We were neither surprised
nor shocked at the attitude.
NS> lives of babies and mothers would be lost when the mother could have
NS> been saved.
Pro-"lifers" won't even admit that the law here restricts abortion after
the first 3 months to very specific reasons. They still deem a late term
'abortion' (done to save the woman's life) as a 'convenience'.
NS> The big thing as an echo you could do is to cut out the anti-chriatian
NS> flaming from word one with new people test some out a bit more you
Who wants to? Most of the religionoids we get through here are idiots.
Idiots need whacked upside the head with a clue x 4.
More moderate people, as you SEEM to be, will just have to take their lumps
with the rest until they can show evidence of being half-way human. And
it's going to take a LOT of evidence for me to believe you are as reasonable
as you sound. The last one that started off like you ended up being a
reason for emesis basins as part of your computer setup.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be sav
|Date: 22 Feb 97 17:48:30
EID:0de5 22568e00
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 160477fe
MSGID: 1:229/622 330f31b8
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
KY>>> interesting possibility, there have been many to say they heard
KY>>> torturous screams of agony when they dug too deep
KY>>> in the earth.. Now,
KY>>> if that is so, could it be Hell? If not, what are
KY>>> those sounds coming
KY>>> from?
DW>>> I wanted to make damn sure you saw this :)
KY>> Yeah, like the theory that we came from apes, sounds any better.
KS> And just what theory would that be, oh jellied moron?
Nice to see you back. You've arrived just before the playoffs
start between this astrophysicist and David Ragland.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Tom Huber
|Sub: Mormongate
|Date: 22 Feb 97 21:20:54
EID:6e73 2256aa80
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f6532
REPLY: 1:115/477.0 8A990D02
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Veneris dies February 21 1997, Dixit Tom Huber ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ> JD>>> Wanna borrow my copy of "The Mormon Murders"?????
>> TH> Note the wording: *conviction* of crimes... In other words, it must
>> TH> be by law, not by someone making an allegation that wasn't upheld
>> TH> in a court of law. Books like the one you mention often contain
>> TH> such allegations that people are willing to believe... Barnum
>> TH> wasn't wrong.
SQ>> You have some different facts about the Mark Hofmann case? What are
the
>> allegations that "The Mormon Murders" makes that in your opinion are
>> incorrect?
TH> Allegations are one thing, but convictions are what I was addressing.
You said "Books like the one you mention often contain such allegations
that people are willing to believe." Which allegations, then, are the ones
that "people are willing to believe" that you feel are inaccurate? I've
read several accounts of the whole incident, including "The Mormon Murders,"
and they all seem to tell pretty much the same tale.
TH> You seem to have missed that. I can make allegations all day long,
TH> but unless I can prove them in a court of law, they remain
TH> allegations, and unproven.
Of course, "Not guilty" doesn't necessarily mean "Innocent." Talk to O.J.
Simpson about that one.
TH> If you want to consider something that a lot of us have been exposed
to
TH> more than any of us (possibly) want, I don't know if O.J. killed Ron
TH> Brown or not.
Really? You rhetorically asked later in your message why God allows the
likes of O.J. Simpson to get away with murder. Sounds like you've made
up your mind (That's fine, I really could care less either way.). As Simpson
is not a Mormon, though, he has nothing to fear from the folks in Salt Lake,
although they could annoy the shit out of him by sending their missionaries
to his door.
TH> The original statement that started this thread was that the church
does
TH> not allow person convicted of fraud to remain members. The key word
is
TH> and continues to be "convicted."
And I will be more than happy to concede -this- point to you: My wife tells
me that Hofmann is "very excommunicated" for his pains. Now, whether that's
for his bombings or for his embarrassment of the church, well, only THEY
know that. :) I would need information about other convicted criminals
and their status within the LDS church to know either way.
>> While I'm at it, how was Gordon Hinckley, a man who (today, in his
>> function as president of the LDS church) apparently speaks to God on
a
>> daily basis, fooled by Hofmann's forgeries? Why would God allow "his"
>> church to be embarrassed so?
TH> Consider this: If Judas was known to God (who is supposed to be
TH> all-knowing), then why did Jesus choose him as one of the twelve? Why
TH> did God allow a traitor from within the ranks to turn his Son over to
TH> the authorities for a trial, torture, and ultimately, death?
Easy answer: God was sending his kid down to Planet Earth to save us all.
It does not appear that that was in the cards for Hofmann and Hinckley.
TH> Why does God allow suffering in the world, if He is supposed to love
TH> us?
TH> Why does he allow people like O.J. to get away with murder, if justice
TH> is to be served? Why do little children, who have done nothing to harm
TH> anyone in their lives, have to die of starvation?
That is up to the Bible believer to explain. If you've got some good answers,
I'm listening, but Bible verse won't get you very far in HOLYSMOKE.
TH> If you can answer those questions, then maybe you'll have the answers
TH> to your questions about the Hoffman incident.
I can't invoke magic for my answers.
>> BTW, did you know that Orrin Hatch used to beat up his sister while
>> Hatch was living with his brother-in-law?
TH> I really don't care. I don't care for Hatch, and I'm not from Utah.
He's
TH> a politician. What else needs to be said?
Just asking. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 22 Feb 97 21:30:06
EID:f36c 2256abc0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 330f6576
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 759d0c73
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Martin!
Jovis dies February 20 1997, Dixit Martin Goldberg ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> And don't forget to act offended and question the integrity of
SQ>> the person who catches you. Just to be safe, ask them whether or
SQ>> not they believe in God.
MG> Think I'll write a macro.
I need to fire up Mark's Fundy Door and use THAT. :)
MG>>> Last week. I will inform himthat you are up and running.
SQ>> I told him that via the Internet. I just added another point --
SQ>> strangely enough, 9005.21 -- so we can do this again. :)
MG> HA HA HA HA...you'll be sorry.
I won't be paying the LD bill. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: JASON HARMON
|Sub: Test
|Date: 21 Feb 97 08:28:00
EID:efbd 22554380
All and Jason were killing time yakking about Test:
JH> Hello, hello?
JH> Is this thing on?
They made it through, Jason!!
I'm seeing posts of yours in this packet dating back to the 1st. You're
back in business. (G)
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" --Monty Python
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: RICHARD SMITH
|Sub: TIME Atheist Article
|Date: 21 Feb 97 08:30:00
EID:0091 225543c0
All and Richard were killing time yakking about TIME Atheist Article:
dr> ATHEIST SPEAKS OUT AGAINST HIS FORMER MASTERS
dr> Hello Zerotheists,
RS> [dementia deletia]
RS> Gads, he's finally Moothed-Out, and another Bernier is born!
RS> I don't know how anyone else feels about this, but I at
RS> least have admire Bernier and Mooth on one issue: they write
RS> (for the most part) their own stuff.
Er...Bernier might...Mooth's is lifted whole from a fairly well-known
daily devotional called Our Daily Bread (wotta surprise!).
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
... Men read Playboy for the articles - women go to malls for the music.
---
* TLX v4.10 *
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: MARIO GONZALEZ
|Sub: Conversion
|Date: 22 Feb 97 03:15:00
EID:ba80 225619e0
Norman and Mario were killing time yakking about Conversion:
NS> I can see where you are coming from, but *all* is a bit OTT, I am
NS> a Christian myself, but I would never impose my views on another, and
NS> I respect people of different views to my own seing them as equal or
NS> even superior to my own.
MG>
MG> Strange answer!.
MG> All of it is fine, don't get me wrong, but if someone with an
MG> opossing view regarding the belief in a deity is superior to
MG> you as you say, why wouldn't you stop believing then to emulate
MG> her/him/it?????
I can't really speak for Norman - he's way too new here for me to have much
of
an idea of what he thinks, however....when I was still a believer, I would
have
said much the same, and here is why:
1. I would have been thinking more about how they LIVE their beliefs than
I
would be worrying about what those beliefs are. I felt then (and still
do)
that a belief was exactly as useful or harmful as the use to which it was
put.
The obvious comparison that comes to mind is Ghandi vs. Swaggart....obviously
Ghandi's views were far superiour to that of Jimmy Swaggarts, REGARDLESS
of
the beliefs which fuel either.
2. I understood that my beliefs were just that - beliefs. They were, for
a
time, right for ME, but there is a difference between finding something
that
points to the 'truth' and declaring it THE Truth, without question. There
are
many Christians who feel the same way, and can comfortably maneuver within
their beliefs without feeling they have some lock on what is The Truth.
Ultimately, my beliefs ceased to be useful or valid for me and it was at
that
point that I left them behind, but I did find them useful for a period of
time, as a way of expressing my views. I also found much that was useful
in
spiritual views that were NOT my own, and even though I did not use those
expressions of faith to explain myself, that does not mean that I did not
find
them worthwhile.
MG> One other thing. Don't you sometimes feel sad for us
MG> nonveliebers-condemned to hell types?
Not every Christian believes in hell, and of those that do, not every Christian
believes it is a punishment for nonbelief.
(YES, people, it's salad bar-ism. No SENSIBLE theist should be without
their
Salad Bar!)
MG> If you had your way, woudn't you convert me to your way of
MG> thinking to save me?
Only if he felt you had something you needed to be saved FROM, perhaps.
:)
MG> No fighting intended.
They are good questions.
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Avoid temporary variables and strange women.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: NORMAN SOLOMON
|Sub: Black lipstick 1/2
|Date: 22 Feb 97 13:18:00
EID:366a 22566a40
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Rod and Norman were killing time yakking about Black lipstick:
NS> RS> Yeah, well, blame the Christers for destroying public
NS> RS> education... and their Republican't colleagues :)
NS> Do> I have no problem with Christianity. I have no problem with many
NS> Do> Christians. It's ignorant hyporcritical wannabe Christians who
think
NS> Do> theyre gonna get into Heaven for passing their unsolicited sinful
NS> Do> judgement on me that I have a problem with.
NS> A voice of reason in this echo, what a very pleasent change.
NS> Despite Rod's invitation to join the "lets blame the Christers" you
remain
NS> your own person, and speak as you find, rather than adopt what passes
for
NS> a warped version of "PC" by some posters in this echo.
RS> Strange. I clearly laid blame at the Republicans, and the
RS> fundamentalist religious political extremists Christians for
RS> which they puppet...er...stand for :)
NS> I only took it the way Domino had, so maybe it was not as clear as you
NS> intended it to be. Sorry :-(
While the judgementalism of hyperchristians is annoying and can be extremely
emotional damaging when they aim it at someone who IS attempting to seek
some
spiritual guidelines for their life via Christianity, their true danger
to
those who do NOT share their religious views comes when they seek political
power in order to establish their morality as law. Christian history is
full
of example of what happens whenever a christian theocracy is allowed to
develop.
In recent years (I would point to President Reagan's political bedsharing
with
Jerry Falwell's "Moral Majority" as the turning point), the Republican Party
has allowed itself to become the mouthpiece of the fundamentalist extreme.
Much of the vehemence you witness in this echo is the fallout of having
to
fight to keep our country out of the hands of those who state - without
shame -
that their intent is to turn the United States into a mirror of their own
moralistic hostility. And who have the ears and approval of many who are
in
a position to make a serious attempt to pull it off.
What becomes galling is that the MAINSTREAM Christians....those who are
NOT
ideologically or politically fundamentalist, remain silent when they should
be
the most VOCAL dissenters of this abuse of both spirituality and politics.
I could recount (and many here will remember) a few examples of the reaction
FROM CHRISTIANS a vocally dissenting Christian gets when she dares to "suck
up to the heathens" by objecting to anything a fellow Christian does or
says.
RS> Yes, they are problems. Didn't you read about the woman in
RS> Georgia who tried to kill her sister so that the exorcism could
RS> be complete?
NS> Yes, and I wrote to the person who posted it to thank them for doing
NS> so. Please be aware that much of what is posted here seems to
NS> incredible to believe in other parts of the world.
You think that's hard to believe? Don't forget that we are also the land
of
the Pink Plastic Lawn Flamingo. ;)
NS> Is there an OLR/Editor where I speak, it types?
(G) If there were, we'd have already seen to it that Mratin Glodbreg and
Ron
Vass had one. You're in good company, don't worry about it, and enjoy the
teasing.
NS> I want the info, but I could do without the grief that my "Twilight
NS> Zone" text output gets me. This stuff is coming down at almost 1Mb
a
NS> day so I have had to flag this echo to "personal & ALL only".
Oh, you're going to miss a LOT of good stuff doing that! It would be far
better to suffer for another month or so with the large packets, read as
much
as you can, get a feel for those posters that you truly do think are a total
waste of bandwidth, and then start applying filters.
NS> If you see anything that you feel I should see please post it to me
NS>
Yikes! And double the bandwidth for the rest of us by double posting? (weeelll,
Al's not here, I suppose we *could* afford it....)
NS> Who are these "christians" who are producing such fear (expressed as
RS> hatred) in your nation? What exactly are "they" doing?
On a national scale, or are you looking for smaller more personal example?
They produce fear (and are themselves infused with it) when they attempt
to
put into law those views they cannot successfully manage to persuade people
with - and they have a difficult time persuading without using fear (of
hell,
when they have nothing else to intimidate with) because their ideology is
completely unsound.
Their ignorance and inability to construct anything remotely resembling
a
logical argument mostly generates hilarity, altho that too becomes something
>>> Continued to next message...
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: NORMAN SOLOMON
|Sub: Black lipstick 2/2
|Date: 22 Feb 97 13:18:00
EID:369a 22566a40
>>> Part 2 of 2...
to fear when you realize we will all have to be dealing with the children
they
home school so that they have a captive audience for their warped out
biblically literalistic interpretation of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
NS> These questions come to mind.
NS> If you were able to remove all Christians would this then stop?
In my opinion? Of course not. An megamanical asshole is a megamanical asshole,
regardless of belief. Christianity is a very convenient peg on which to
hang
that behaviour though...it creates a climate where the asshole can not only
justify the poor behaviour, but take comfort that GOD approves, too.
Some religions are less suited to that sort of rationalization, and are
therefore deemed less harmful, those still may be seen as ridiculous to
the
nonbeliever. Those religions tend to be left alone more often than
Christianity is in here.
NS> Did these things exist in the pre-christian world?
Killing? Persecution? Judgementalism? Yes.
But it has flourished under the Banner of Christ since its birth.
And since Christianity pays lip service to mercy, humility, compassion and
standing by those principles REGARDLESS of how the rest of the world behaves,
it is fair game for taking a very hard look at the dicotomy between what
it
SAYS and what it DOES.
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
---
* TLX v4.10 *
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: NORMAN SOLOMON
|Sub: Bored
|Date: 22 Feb 97 12:03:00
EID:7539 22566060
Lynda and Norman were killing time yakking about Bored:
DW> Are you saying that Christianity is a *race*? Damn, everytime I think
DW> we've plumbed the depths of your stupidity, you show us the pit is
DW> actually even deeper.
NS> You have studied theology, haven't you? Which part of "for we are
NS> aliens and foreigners here" did'nt you understand?
LB> That doesn't really address the question. Just because Christians
LB> think they are aliens (you KNOW you're going to hear about that, don't
LB> you?) doesn't make them a 'race'. There are christians in every racial
LB> group, but christianity is a religion, not a race.
NS> Could you tell me what race black people are then? or jews perhaps?
Has "black" become a religion now? Did they choose to take on a black ideology?
Judaism is a bit unique, as there are those who culturally identify themselves
as Jewish without maintaining the belief, however it also encompasses many
races, and there are atheist Jews....can one be an atheist Christian? Or
is
Christianity a belief....something one CHOOSES to be affiliated with?
NS> The point I was trying to make to DW was, that to label someone with
a
NS> whole bunch of negatives just because they are a Christian, is wrong
NS> by any ethical standards.
Yes. The word you were shooting for was "bigoted" not "racist"....it is
a bit
of racism to suggest that Christianity is identifiable by any one race,
blondhaired, blue-eyed paint by number pictures of Jesus aside.
NS> If DW had written to me in the same vein, because I was black, would
NS> you still be leaping to his defense?
Not unless I thought there was some sort of black ideology that makes being
black inherently suspect (which I don't), and that you chose your pigmentation.
What makes Holysmoke different from most religious echos and society at
large
is that you are NOT starting from a position of respect here. You earn it
(and you earn ridicule) based on your words, and much of that comes from
the
first impression you make. IMO, you are overcoming your first impression,
and that is no easy task when you are in the company of people with long
memories, finely tuned bullshit detectors....and archives.
In society, Christians are defaulted on the side of respect until proven
otherwise...it is such a natural thing to them, that it is a shock to not
be
accorded the same here. Here you face the opposite....much as atheists,
pagans and anyone else NOT Christian are dealt in the "real world". If
the
flipping of common standards is uncomfortable, well and good. There are
really only two ways to react to it...the most common is to curl up into
a
little ball and demand everyone stop being so MEAN to you...the second is
to
let it lead you to some thought about how you, as a Christian, really perceive
and treat those who do not share your beliefs. You are showing me that
your
desire is to understand the reasons behind the hostility, and I applaud
you
for it.
LB> :) Only two years of community college here, but might I suggest that
LB> you, educated on two continents tho you may be, take a bit of EXTRA
LB> time to proof read any post where you're bragging about your superior
LB> education.
NS> It was never my intention to brag about my education, it is a simple
NS> statement of facts. The "spin" is all yours.
:) I'll stand by the spin, however. We see the educational chestbeating
go on
too often here....and if one is going to do so, the only way to avoid outbursts
of hilarity is to make sure your spelling....in THAT sort of post, at least,
doesn't indicate too blatently that said education overlooked the basics.
Sort of makes the validity of the remaining claims suspect, you see.
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: EXEMPLIFYING EXAMPLES
|Date: 22 Feb 97 12:25:00
EID:0d81 22566320
Lynda and Roger were killing time yakking about EXEMPLIFYING EXAMPLES:
DC> It seems it's "not allowed" by most all xian sects around these
DC> parts. Most likely, they make sure that their women do not
DC> wear paten leather shoes, too.
LB> Shoes?? The denominations in your area let the women wear SHOES?? ;)
RH> Well, it's a liberal sect, you see, not Real True Christians (tm)
Ah, damn those False Christian Scum!
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
... I looked up executrix. It has nothing to do w/ leather and high heels.
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: NORMAN SOLOMON
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 22 Feb 97 13:25:00
EID:d457 22566b20
>>> Part 1 of 3...
Don and Norman were killing time yakking about Fundy Frolics:
DM> something like 3,000 "incidents" at abortion clinics yearly, ranging
DM> from failed arson attempts and vandalism up to bombings and
DM> shootings with fatalities, and it has been going on for years. I am
DM> unaware of _any_ such incident, where the perpetrator has been
DM> caught, where he has has been found to have acted from anything but
DM> religious motives.
NS> Do they have no thought whatsoever, to the pain any woman must be
NS> feeling who finds themselves having to take this option. The process
NS> must hard enough to get through without having a massive guilt trip
NS> laid on you.
No, you fail to understand. To these minds, that guilt is a GOOD thing...it
is their primary weapon. Where that fails, terror then comes into play.
NS> What of Doctors, nurses their families who have lost their lives,
NS> either as a fact or because a loved one had been taken from them. I
Oh, they are forces of Satan for participating in the abortion. To grieve
over
them instead of gleefully dancing at the image of them burning in hell would
be ungodly.
NS> fail to see how they can arrive at this "solution". To every rule
NS> their are exceptions for example if all abortions were to be banned,
NS> lives of babies and mothers would be lost when the mother could have
NS> been saved.
Indeed. But in fundy-think, those mothers are sinful and the babies aren't,
so she comes second. And if the baby croaks too, that's ok, because they
are going to heaven anyway. Unless you're talking to Jim Staal - then the
baby is going to hell if mama isn't saved.
Yes, its confusing. Yes, its absurd. And people are vandalizing clinics
and
attempting to outlaw abortion here due to these absurdities.
NS> The answer is it must be left to the descretion of Doctor and mother,
NS> no Doctor must be made to to do such surgery against his/her will, and
NS> another Doctor who is willing to go ahead must be found.
I'm curious....is there some mandate in England attempting to require doctors
to perform medical procedures they find unethical? Having no real public
health care system here, we do not have that problem.
NS> The scale of it (the incidents) shocks me, and i wish with all my
NS> heart that I could do something to help. To do so I need good and
NS> reliable info. to confront these "wolves" in "sheeps" clothing.
As do we...I would wish more Christians were vocal about policing their
own.
NS> Their mandate is to council anyone setting about an abortion, without
NS> any preasure for or against, and continue with love and support what
NS> ever choice the mother takes. But right now they have lost any trust,
NS> and should be relying on prayer. I could say a whole load more but
I
NS> am having to rush to meet my midnight deadline.
Most Christian pregnancy councilling seems to consist of getting the poor
woman alone and then showing pictures of dead fetuses (some protestors are
fond of carrying around formaldehyde jars containing a pickled fetus), and
conducting an intense program of brainwashing and intimidation to ensure
that she not abort, often requiring her to become "saved" before they will
offer her real assistance. Sometimes that will be to encourage her to raise
the child, whether she has the financial means to do so or not. Often if
the
woman is white and not drug addicted, the very next step is to usher her
into
the office of one of their christian lawyers to sign a lot of contracts
to
have the child placed for adoption to a good christian family...who is willing
to pay a lot of money to shortcut the standard adoption red tape and get
a
good healthy white baby.
NS> If it is their choice to pray, they should rise early in the morning
NS> and do before school starts. In this way they might dedicate
NS> themselves to schoolwork whilst they are in school as a "worship
NS> offering" to God.
(G) A suggestion that always seems to annoy them. Many accuse the public
school system of undermining "family values", yet suggesting that morning
prayer conducted as a family prior to leaving for the day doesn't quite
appeal to them. The reasons are simple - its not THEIR children they are
worried about, its those poor damned heathen children they want to make
sure
get indoctrinated before they are old enough to think about it.
NS> It is not the job of Christians to judge or condem any group of people
NS> homosexuals are no exception. They should me met with unconditional
NS> love and acceptance. Did Jesus not say that "let he who is without
NS> sin cast the first stone". He^ had already told them that "if any man
NS> says he was without sin the truth was not in him and was a liar"
Out of curiousity, where does England stand such issues as same-sex marriage,
inheritance rights for a same sex partner, same sex partners being allowed
access in a hospital when 'family only' visitation is in force, spousal
>>> Continued to next message...
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: NORMAN SOLOMON
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 2/3
|Date: 22 Feb 97 13:19:00
EID:d4a7 22566a60
>>> Part 2 of 3...
benefits for taxation and employer sponsered healthcare, etc?
You see, it is not JUST about individual hostility....the christian stance
that homosexuality is a 'sin' has led to the denial of legal rights that
heterosexuals take for granted.
DM> Bandsma, caught a thief in South Carolina. Where the material has
DM> anything to do with sex, the human body, or religions other than
DM> Christianity, the perps are overwhelmingly (like 99.999999%)
NS> They must be getting sucked into some very strange teaching, are they
NS> saying that the tri-omnies God they serve is helpless, if they pray
NS> and God does not act they should rest upon His^ decision.
Looks that way, doesn't it? Deep down, most christians put about as much
'faith' in God actually doing anything as any atheist does. The way they
choose to act as his representative varies and acts as an excellent
barometer of just how they view him.
NS> Wrong again, Christian teaching is that they must honour and obey
NS> their fathers and mothers and that includes the fathers and mothers
of
NS> other peoples children.
But, Norman! GOD doesn't honor those dirty, evil heathens....why should
his
agents do any more? ;)
NS> Breaking the law for Christians is not allowed, except in severe
NS> circumstances, such as being the right to practice their own services.
A loophole easily dealt with by declaring any issue the christian in question
feels is important as being "severe". Hence, they use hysteria tactics
to
try to rally others to agree that it is severe enough to lay aside that
silly
lawbreaking rule.
DM> gay, for instance, that gospel could well have come wrapped around a
DM> brick a block or so from the place of business.
NS> Tell me this would be breaking your national laws, and that they are
NS> punished for such acts.
Most of our laws are state and local ordinances rather than "national law".
And in those cases, they are dealt with by local authorities. Find yourself
in some of the more backwoods areas, and that means that the civil authorities
have a reserved front row pew at the local evangelical church, and a KKK
robe
hanging in the closet.
Yes, officially, vandalism is illegal. Getting it enforced however is close
to impossible...many pagans could tell you stories about how the police
spent more time searching their premises for signs of "satan worship" than
they did to gain evidence in order to track down the perpetrator.
NS> Sadley that you can only do for yourself. But you go on to suggest
NS> that the topic cannot be discused without this "evidence", I think it
NS> can don't you?
DM> Sure, the same way Hamlet, Huckleberry Finn, and Lady Bracknell
DM> may be discussed. Anyone attempting to propose Hamlet, Huckleberry
DM> Finn, Lady Bracknell, et al. as some sort of basis o