God Damned Fundies!
|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: he come de judge
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:45:02
EID:b654 22370da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 3704060e
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 20 Jan 97 09:02pm, AL SCHROEDER wrote to DAN CEPPA:
AS>> History. The barbarians who took over when Rome fell, were, for the
AS>> most part, non-Christians. Although they later converted (some to
AS>> Arianism).
DC>> Wrong, Al. The barbarians were, for the most part, just as
DC>> Lynda stated: xians.
AS> Although for instance, the Visigoths, fled their cousins the Huns and
AS> became Arians just to gain the protection of the Empire...which Alaric
AS> later brought to its knees.
Al spins history . . .
The Huns were short, had small black eyes, flat noses,
came from north of China--not likely "cousins" to Teutons.
They were already partially Christian by the time they
were allowed south of the Danube as a protection agains the Huns.
St. Ulifas (sp.?) had decades before translated much of the Bible
into Gothic. Accepting Christianity was *not* part of the
deal--giving over arms on crossing the Danube and giving over much
of their children as hostages was. The Romans made the mistake of
not allowing them to purchase food before their crops came up; the
upshot was the emperor Valens killed in defeat at Adrianople in
376.
The Visigoths were Christian when they sacked Rome in 410;
so were the Ostrogoths by that time. And the Vandals were also
Christian when they in turn sacked Rome in 455.
The Empire had been persecuting Arians for decades by the
time of the first sack. I've never seen an examination as to
how much sectarian strife played a role in Rome v. Barbarianism,
but I strongly suspect a contributing role.
... Conan was a hacker.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: al debunks apple sauc
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:45:02
EID:bf5a 22370da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040685
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
AS>> Life is full of suprises. Of course, there were great thinkers before
AS>> Socrates. But let's just look at the As, to begin with...Anaxagoras
CJ>> One of life's surprises is how the hell you could think my
CJ>> paragraph above is a question, as you repeatedly described it as
CJ>> such to Robert Curry.
AS> You were questioning my mentioning of Sophocles as the beginning of
AS> philosophy, correct? But if you think it must have a formal "?" then
AS> certainly I will withdraw the term. "Statement", then. Even "reply".
Incorrect, except in Al semantics.
Me: "You disagree with just about every history of Greek
philosophy written."
You: "Thanks for asking a question."
Now you say it's philosophy began with Sophocles. I'm
awaiting for you to justify this on the ground he wrote dialogue.
CJ>> [Much borrowed bullshit completely ignoring what the
CJ>> Pre-Socratics said about ethics, after-life, the flow of change,
CJ>> even vegetarianism, deleted.]
AS>
AS> If you wish.
I'm happy you gave me permission not to waste bandwidth
again by re-quoting your paraphrases.
CJ>> IOW, we're having another Al semantic bullshit game: Greeks
CJ>> because Socrates can't have practiced philosophy, even though
CJ>> "philosopher" is attached to their name in every reference book
CJ>> and history of philosophy, because--because Al is imposing his own
CJ>> peculiar definition on philosophy, as he did on war.)
AS> Every deep thinker in ancient times could be termed "philosopher",
AS> Curtis. And I can only speak of my own perspective. I can speak of
no
AS> other.
You could speak of the "perspective" of the source you used
for Anixamander, et al. You could admit that the reference you
relied upon denoted them as philosophers.
CJ>> Beginning to get the idea of one reason I'm no longer
CJ>> willing to waste much of my time on you?
AS> Curtis, my correspondence is rather large in this echo, as you may
have
AS> noticed. Whether you choose to post to me is a matter of complete
AS> indifference to me.
Ah, the brave Stoic.
... So many messages, so few megs.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Jan Deboer
|Sub: bacteria and evolutio
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:45:04
EID:fe1f 22370da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 370406fc
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 20 Jan 97 02:50pm, AL SCHROEDER wrote to JAN DEBOER:
AS> Well, yeah...
AS> Considering the rest of the universe is needed to keep the universe
AS> from recollapsing within a month's time. If the universe only
AS> consisted of, say, the Milky Way galaxy, it would have recollapsed
in
AS> a matter of months.
Since the Milky Way's a hundred thousand light years
across, Al is holding back the secret of faster-than-light travel.
... Landfill full: garbage count exceeded.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: humor the fundy fools
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:45:04
EID:4595 22370da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040773
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 20 Jan 97 07:29pm, AL SCHROEDER wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
AS> Oh, I agree with you there; I'm with Ben Johnson, kicking the stone,
AS> showing that reality exists. But I don't fool myself that it is NOT
a
AS> belief. It is.
Sam Johnson, "Thus I refute Berkeley." Ben Johnson was the
playwright contemporary of Shakespeare.
... The capital of Arcadia was Megalopolis.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: oh hell
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:46:06
EID:d173 22370dc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 370407ea
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>> I really am glad to see you're back.
LB> :) Thanks again....glad to *be* back. '97 looks to be a very
LB> interesting year,
LB> hopefully not in the Chinese Curse sense.
Terminal (pun intended) boredom or "interesting times" :
the hell of heaven or just plain hell?
... WARNING! Any use of any product will lead to heat death!
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: more babbling al
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:46:06
EID:a9d4 22370dc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040861
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
AS>> Perhaps you should ask him that, since he addresses me
AS>> a question IN THIS VERY PACKET.
CJ>> What?
CJ>> I addressed him a question?
RC> How talented of you. Most people simply ask a question. It takes
RC> a special kind of person to "address" a question. Al has some really
RC> weird way of distorting reality, creating a personal pseudo-reality.
"Address a question," I think is legitimate English
usage--but it's a quite, stuffy, antiquated, stilted, formal
usage. It reeks of Robert's Rules of Order, where one addresses
a question to the Chair.
CJ>> I caught your , so you read what Al tells you was a
CJ>> question from me.
RC> Indeed. A sarcastic comment on his stupid remark about Socrates being
RC> "the first philosopher" -- it still makes me laugh to think about it.
He changed his mind--now it's Sophocles!
... And now, for our next exhibit in the glass zoo. . .
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: babbling al
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:46:08
EID:7874 22370dc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 370408d8
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
AS>> Congratulations on your falling flat on your face. Too bad for
AS>> you that Curtis asked me a question in this very packet. ROFL!!!
CJ>> I dunno, Robert, what do you think that he was deliberately
CJ>> misrepresenting my reply as an attempt to try and troll me
CJ>> into replying to him so that he could then try and Schoederize
CJ>> me into how my response was actually a question?
RC> I think he has become so accustomed to believing his own bullshit
RC> that when he completely distorts the truth, it "feels like" reality
RC> to him.
Well, as I understand his clarification, he takes
questioning anything he says (e.g., 'Al, you're full of shit!')
as a question.
Psycho-epistemologically, it's an interesting question as
to whether he's so removed from normal usage, deliberately
manipulates, or your alternative.
I had tried to give him the benefit of the doubt of
assuming that he was plugged into the world of discourse.
RC> BTW, this topic arose on IRC recently.
RC> Here's an amusing selection from my #holysmoke log file:
RC> I just thought it funny you saying Curtis would no longer
RC> post to me...when in that same packet, he DID.
RC> When did I say he wouldn't post to you? I said -- correctly
--
RC> that he was disgusted and alienated by you.
RC> Curry: are you confused, Curry? You accused me of being
RC> proud of alienating him...well, if he is so alientated, he
RC> wasn't alienated enough not to post to me.
RC> Al, you are fixated on something I never said. I never
RC> mentioned him "not posting to you"
RC> yea...alienated people NEVER interact, curry....because
RC> if they DID it would be war, and we don't war with aliens!
RC> Lynda is determined to kill me (and any innocent bystanders) with
RC> induced fits of laughter, I sometimes think. Then again, she can
RC> become quite serious, as well. See the following two posts for one
RC> example, a longer selection.
A good example of Al's peculiar semantics . . . if he's
serious about being a fiction writer, he'd better start
comprehending how a complete stranger might take what he says!
... Tagline: I'm it.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: babbling bullshitter
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:46:08
EID:16bc 22370dc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 3704094f
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 19 Jan 97 11:54pm, ROBERT CURRY wrote to CURTIS JOHNSON:
RC> Al, Curtis said that was the LAST STRAW. Does that imply
RC> to you that it was the only thing you did to alienate him?
RC> Or was it rather the LAST thing?
RC> AlleyTom [~al.schroe@199.78.224.185] has quit IRC (Ping timeout
RC> for AlleyTom[199.78.224.185])
RC> AlleyTom [~al.schroe@slip20.nashville.com] has joined #holysmoke
RC> Al...I apologize. figured you'd not be coming back.
RC> Al, Curtis said that was the LAST STRAW. Does that imply to
you
RC> that it was the only thing you did to alienate him? Or was
it
RC> rather the LAST thing?
RC> Curry: WHY should I care?
RC> Specifically, Al, when you asserted he was disgusted and
RC> alienated by you for one little thing about age.
RC> Curry: because that's exactly why he said he was no
RC> longer posting to me. He mentioned it again this packet.
RC> If he has other issues, that's fine, that's okay, but don't
RC> pretend it's because of the age thing.
RC> And he said that it was the last straw. What does that
RC> normally mean, Al? That it was a sudden event?
RC> al...even the AGE thing isn't about his age...it was
RC> about your assumption that you knew better about something
RC> because of YOUR age....assumed he was younger, and assumed
RC> that meant something. You tried to dismiss his statements
RC> based on age and it was the DISMISSAL that was the final straw
RC> in a long list of arrogant assumptions of superiourity on
RC> your part.
RC> Indeed: and I don't expect people to shut off a dialogue
RC> over something like that...without asking. I apologized to
RC> Curtis. If he can't take it...that's his problem. nont mine.
RC> he needed to ask, to be entitled to stop posting to
RC> you?! He is entitled to his opinion, but he is NOT
RC> entitled to withhold it without asking first! ok, got it!
Oh, man, it's so much fun to be the object of a cat fight!
Especially when the winners understand and the loser
doesn't!
Yep--it was the blithe assumption, without any knowledge
whatsoever, that Al was condescending about our relative ages that
finally tripped the gasket. The intellectual dishonesty (in his
case, I think Al may be intellectually dishonest toward himself)
just became too irritating when suddenly applied on a personal
level.
Thanks for posting this! (Any bets on how long Al will
whine over you posting this?)
... Keyboard only cryptic stuff below this line.
... "He's dead, Jim. . . From now on, call HIM Bones!"
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: alternative of straw
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:46:10
EID:3674 22370dc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 370409c6
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 17 Jan 97 09:31pm, LYNDA BUSTILLOZ wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
MG>> IF souls are the embodiment of wht the person does, then sooner or
MG>> later, all would be consigned to hell. That is, if there was a god,
MG>> sending out souls to live out our lives for us, sooner or later, they
MG>> all get trapped in some sinners physical form and then would be sent
MG>> to hell. Pretty soon, god runs out of souls.
AS>> Hmmm. I think you're presupposing reincarnation there, unless you
AS>> think no one can lead a life that would earn Heaven...
AS>> It sure is, but I was trying to understand Martin's POV, which is
AS>> very far from the standard Christian one.
LB> Standard christian theology says there are human souls that are NEVER
LB> housed in a physical body?
LB> Actually, Martin is espousing Judaic theology, if I recall the idea
LB> correctly, that there is a limited number of souls available, and that
LB> God sends them into their physical bodies at birth (God, breathing the
LB> soul into the body at birth).
LB> Yes, patched together with the christian idea of hell, it gets carried
LB> to his conclusion....but since christianity lays claims to Jewish
LB> roots, it is certainly not out there to take a look at it, without
LB> resorting to reincarnation.
The pre-existence of souls was a hot theological debate for
a long time. And there's some modern Christian factions that
still argue for it.
And FWIW, Origen, for instance, seriously argued for
reincarnation in a Christian system--it was the only way out he
could conceive for a loving God.
... To eros is human.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: goodbye
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:46:10
EID:eab2 22370dc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040a3d
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>>CJ>>>> SM> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!" [d&rg]
CJ>>CJ>>>> JH> GOURDS! GOURDS! SQUASH HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> DC> GARRANDS! GARRANDS! SHOOT HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> EV> GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> JH> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> DC> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> DC> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>EM>> GaAsFETS! GaAsFETS! AMPLIFY HIM!
CJ>>CJ>>RV> GROWLER! GROWLER! SHORT-CIRCUITED HIM!
CJ>>CJ>> GOPHERS! GOPHERS! FTP HIM!
CJ>>KW> GALACTOPHORE! GALACTOPHORE! MILK HIM!
CJ>> GEESE! GEESE! GOOSE HIM!
KW> GRAVID! GRAVID! IMPREGNATE HIM!
GRAVEL! GRAVEL! PEBBLE HIM!
... Nothing to lose but my access privileges.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:12
EID:cbfb 22370de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040ab4
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
DM>> Actually, central American Amerinds did have wheeled
DM>> _toys_ before Columbus brought civilization to these shores,
DM>> so they were not quite so hopeless as some would maintain:
DM>> they understood the principle and the construction of the
CJ>> I've seen photographs of one such toy.
CJ>> An additional barrier, I suppose, was the general
CJ>> consideration that a circle (and therefore a wheel) seems to have
CJ>> been considered a generally sacred symbol.
DM> I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever, but I'll bet
DM> the _roller_ was used by those stone-moving cats in Central
DM> and South America. Interesting point about the sacredness of
DM> the circle, but the presence of a wheel on a toy argues
DM> against the shape's being tabu (unless the kid who owned the
DM> toy was the equivalent of the Dali Lama or something).
Argument from memory of a historical novel is pretty
weak, but Jennings's _Aztec_ had a scene in a quarry where, IIRC,
rollers were being used.
Have you any further knowledge of the proposal about a
decade ago that the huge blocks of stone of various civilizations
were actually a form of concrete--the chips being welded together
by oxalic acid (from such plants as rhubarb)?
Of course, the preserved toys were, IIRC, made for the
children of nobles. Perhaps the concept was both trivialized as
well as made sacred? Not a contradiction, really--either way it
would be slow in leaking down to the working stiffs whose life it
would have eased (since the Incas did have a famous roadway
system).
CJ>> I've read an interesting alternate history by Harry
CJ>> Turtledove which _Homo erectus_ survived in N. America, and
CJ>> mammoths drew freight along railways.
DM> Another interesting point: notice that elephants are
DM> used for carrying (both trunk and back), pushing, and
DM> dragging logs and such, but not for drawing. I have never
DM> seen an elephant cart depicted anywhere. Certainly it has
DM> the mass and the strength to draw, but somehow has
DM> apparently not been found suitable for the task.
An elephant would use its trunk to keep pulling at the
harness, I'd imagine. It would be even worse than a mule for
trying to get it to do such work if it made its mind up not to.
And unless the cart was absurdly high, it may run the danger of
having amorphous, odiferous masses randomly plopped onto its
front.
... Clop. Clop. "I'm a cowboy-hippie, hippie-ay." Clop. Clop.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1477
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: christ-like
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:12
EID:1777 22370de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040b2b
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>> By what you say was his alter ego? The prosecution could
CJ>> rest on that alone!
JB>
JB> How'd YOU get a look at my motion for a directed verdict of guilty?
JB> Gonna sue the judge.
Careful . . . scuttlebutt is that for contempt of court he
pronounces a hell of a fine.
... Smilie when you type that, pardneh.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1477
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: oh wells
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:14
EID:6dbb 22370de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040ba2
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>> text-based I and my circle are. The most recent photo of me is
CJ>> about five years old--when I posed much less of a danger from
JB> So, have you changed THAT much in 5 years? Doesn't matter anyway,
JB> especially when I get finished with it.
I'd look I got cut by by a Bandsma?
JB> On a serious note, yes there is a good reason for
JB> photographs...especially taken with your kids. My mother died when I
JB> was 18. There is not ONE picture of her with me or my sisters. It would
JB> be especially nice to have at least one now that we all have kids of
JB> our own. (And grandkids in my case)
No close relatives in the neighborhood.
CJ>> In a little while. I'm trying to decide what local ISP to
CJ>> go with.
JB>
JB> Well, the page...at the moment...is defunct. It WILL be back, with more
JB> of a bite but it will take me a bit longer to do it as I have the shop
JB> open now and not as much time as I had over the holiday hiatus.
JB> Evidently I didn't make the martyr quotient high enough.
Saves the immediate bother as well of trying to locate a
scanner.
CJ>> And this instance was a particularly clear example of that.
CJ>> Al was insisting that his usage of "war" was the one that
CJ>> obtained, despite nearly unanimous usage the other way by the sf
JB> Maybe I ought to do 2 GOO's of Al. Keep the blowfish...and also GOO
his
JB> face into the center of a broken record.
LOL!
... Can I help you?--Alex Gt. You're blocking the sun. Move.--Diog.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1477
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: why do you need to be
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:14
EID:15fb 22370de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040c19
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>> BTW, did you know that Beckett persistently claimed that
CJ>> the 'Godot' of the title did not stand for "God"? One never knows
JB> I didn't read that until long after I had read 'Godot' (on my own
JB> without some instructor to interpret it for me). And I was a bit
JB> surprised that anyone would see it AS standing for god.
JB> It's been quite a while and I don't remember the characters names, but
JB> I do remember thinking that what they were really waiting for was their
JB> own inner resources of courage and independence to surface.
I don't remember the names of the characters, offhand, but
I remember that one hypothesis was that the two characters were
actually members of a resistance waiting for their contact.
It is a testimony to his genius that could abstract such a
situation, make the dialogue specific enough to serve as an actual
play, yet keep the actual situation so abstract that everyone
feels compelled to rush in to supply their setting.
Of course, his later plays became much more weird as they
became shorter.
As you may have known, he was a secretary for James Joyce.
But a biographical fact that gives better insight into his work is
that when he made it big, he bought a chateau that gave him the
inspirational view of--not the ocean, not mountains, not a
city--but downward below into the courtyard of a prison.
JB> Guess that's another one that needs to be on my reread list. I just
JB> wonder if my librarian will have an easier time with that one than she
JB> did with Sophocles.
Maybe you confused that librarian by asking for the
playwright instead of the first philosopher.
... Smilie when you type that, pardneh.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1477
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: mary's pelvic exam
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:16
EID:b9cd 22370de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040c90
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>>> * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1454
JB>
CJ>> * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1469
JB> But it's counting upward again. Maybe it IS time to register it.
Goat-damn, but you're correct!
How very bizarre. Either I'm in a time-loop, or the
rapture has been postponed!
... "Bother," said Pooh, and wrote a tagline.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1477
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: brett johnson; jealou
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:16
EID:7e61 22370de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040d07
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
MB> On (21 Jan 97) Curtis Johnson babbled to Brett Johnson...
CJ>> Except that above you defined the nature of the sacred as
CJ>> 'you shall not have other gods besides me.'
MB> He's misquoting Judaic scripture, anyway. the correct quote is
MB> "thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE me." The difference is
MB> significant. If you'll read on in that text, Jehovah says he's a
MB> jealous god and insists on FIRST PLACE. That strongly suggests
MB> that whoever wrote that text (it wasn't Moses, for sure, but you
MB> twitty friend probably thinks it was) recognized the fact that
MB> there WERE other gods, and Jehovah simply wanted to be first.
Yep.
MB> To further put the text in context, Originally the Israelites were
MB> polytheists. During their exile in Egypt, Ramoses I was pharoah.
MB> He was probably the first monotheist, but was having one deuce of
MB> a time selling the idea to the populace.
Here's the first problem I have with that thesis--the
consensus among Egyptologists is that the first (and last)
monotheist was--drat, I can't remember his spelling but he was
Nefertiti's hubby----Akhenaten, aka Amenhotep IV, who
reigned about half a century before Ramses I. [To use the usual
transliteration; that this author uses a different one to support
his thesis makes me suspect tendentiousness.]
MB> Ramoses knew that a famine was about to start in the land, and he
MB> also knew that there wasn't enough grain in storage to feed both
MB> the Egyptians AND the Israelites. He convinced his son Ramoses II
MB> to lead the Israelites out of Egypt in a way that would not let
MB> them know that the Pharoah was behind the plot, figuring that if
MB> they did know, they would think the plot was a trap.
MB> It is no accident that the names Ramoses and Moses are as close as
MB> they are. Many OT scholars believe that Ramoses II WAS Moses, and
MB> that he convinced them to HAVE NO OTHER GOD __BEFORE__ Jehovah!
Sorry, very few if any. Just what grains of truth there
may be to Exodus is unknown; the correlation does seem to be less
and less.
MB> _Mythology's Last Gods_ is a pretty good read. It was originally a
MB> doctoral dissertation that later became a modestly selling book.
MB> The author's name is William Harwood. It's in that book, the whole
MB> story.
It may have been a good read, but I suspect a distortion
akin to Velikovsky and a few other pseudoarcheologists.
For what university was this dissertation written? Was it
a university with a decent archeology/Egyptology department?
... Nightmare: Cats with opposable thumbs.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1477
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: mormonism isn't even
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:18
EID:112e 22370de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040d7e
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 20 Jan 97 11:00pm, DARRYL GONZALEZ wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
DG> Sorry, guys, Mormonism isn't even CLOSE to Christianity, or at least,
DG> not as close as the LDS church would have you believe. The church
DG> which Jesus Christ founded did not have temples in which secret (excuse
DG> me, "sacred") rituals were performed. The church which Jesus Christ
DG> founded did not have the Book of Mormon, nor the Doctrine & Covenants,
DG> nor the Pearl of Great Price. The church which Jesus Christ founded
DG> had neither the Aaronic nor Melchisedec Priesthoods.
Acts tells you that the Jerusalem church continued to go
to the Temple, where secret rituals were performed.
The church didn't have the New Testament at first, either.
The Temple where the Jerusalem church worshipped had the
Aaronic priesthood, and the Epistles to the Hebrews goes on and
on about the Melkidezek priesthood.
DG> The church which Jesus Christ founded did not have wards, nor stakes.
DG> The church which Jesus Christ founded did not have Quorums of the
DG> Seventy. The church which Jesus Christ founded did not have many of
DG> the doctrines which the Mormons teach and preach as truth.
The church which didn't have offering plates,
salaried pastors, etc.
Dolt! You have missed every ground on which you could
berate the Mormons as being uniquely full of shit!
DG> Is that your prayer, too? If it is, and you are a Mormon, repent of
DG> your sins and ask Jesus Christ to come into your life today. Then
DG> leave the church. Find a nearby Baptist or Assemblies of God church,
DG> and join it. I'll be praying for you.
God forbid they join some heretical assembly like the
Methodists.
... EDLINE 8.7: For people who take life one line at a time.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1477
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: millennium lunacy
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:18
EID:f606 22370de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 37040df5
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 20 Jan 97 11:32pm, DARRYL GONZALEZ wrote to MARILYN BURGE:
DG> I hate to disagree with you (disagreement NEVER happens on this echo,
DG> right? ), but a few years ago, I did research on the Star of
DG> Bethlehem which leads me to believe that Christ was actually born on
DG> Sept. 15, 7 B.C., or at least sometime within mid-September of 7 B.C.
DG> Let me illustrate why:
Such a miracle is mentioned in only gospel.
Such a "star" couldn't give them the fix of only five miles
difference between Jerusalem and Bethlehem.
Such an interpretation ignores totally the "star" prophecy
of Numbers.
Such a purely astronomical candidate for the date ignores
the dates for the death of Herod the Great, and GMatt, and
Josephus.
IOW, like every other attempt to come up with a date for
the birth of Jesus, it succeeds only by ignoring other supposed
evidence.
Or maybe you like living in 2004 right now.
... Space is nothing but elbow room.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1477
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: all
|Sub: who does god like?
|Date: 22 Jan 97 21:15:42
EID:e4ca 2236a9e0
Often, when an athlete or a team is victorious, the athlete or team will
thank god for the victory. Does said victory mean god didn't like the other
athlete or team? And, if the victor turns out to lose a rematch, does that
mean god changed his mind?
--- MsgedSQ/2 3.35
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Starfire
|Sub: Re: Equal rights
|Date: 21 Jan 97 16:35:50
EID:e28c 22358460
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 bbfb3605
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32df9976
TID: GE/32 1.2
While puffing on a 'Fropstick, I felt Starfire utter:
S> ou got sick eating chicken! {ha}
Yeah, I did. I thought I cooked the damned thing enough. I should have just
ordered pizza. :)
... gmooth@sprynet.com - Spam Spam Spam!!!
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Patriot
|Sub: Re: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 21 Jan 97 19:24:40
EID:441e 22359b00
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 6d1d9dc8
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32e14ea0
TID: GE/32 1.2
While puffing on a 'Fropstick, I felt Patriot utter:
P> Actually, God should not be anyone's co-pilot.. He should actually be
P> the pilot. We should let Him take over, and just enjoy the ride.
But, then, we'd crash into a mountain or something.
... If you love someone, cover her in whipped cream.
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Flat-earthers
|Date: 22 Jan 97 17:31:54
EID:f266 22368be0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e64f0b
-> On 18 Jan 97 10:36:04, Lynda Bustilloz got back to Dan Ceppa
LA> Aldous Huxley? See what you think eh?
DC> I think you have a problem with meglomania and a very strong
DC> tendancy to a marty complex. Seek help.
LB> MARTY complex?!?!
Well, that typo does work. After all, he enjoys getting abused
by geologists and immunologists.
... Rule 1-E of Creationism: Claim evidence...then misqoute science
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: God came to stay
|Date: 22 Jan 97 17:37:42
EID:33bb 22368ca0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e65066
-> On 16 Jan 97 16:08:46, Paul Davis got back to All
PD> If someone told you God was staying at his house, would you want to
PD> have a look?
No, I would prefer that he stayed in his house.
... Staal: "totally ignorant" is descriptive, not hyperbole nor redundant
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Xtians v Sinner = Guns
|Date: 22 Jan 97 22:23:16
EID:8308 2236b2e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e69355
-> On 18 Jan 97 09:25:30, Lynda Bustilloz got back to Richard Smith
DC> Therefore, your god sins if he sends even one of them to hell.
LB> Amen, Bro. Ceppa.
LB> ;)
RS> Now, does Yahveh go to Hell for his sins?
LB> Only if he doesn't ask himself for forgiveness...
Which leads to another problem: How does he know he isn't
lying to himself to save his sorry ass?
... We refer to the Holy Trinity as Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Add BW
|Date: 22 Jan 97 22:54:44
EID:201d 2236b6c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e69ab5
Marty, I figured you may like to see this info:
* Originally Re: Add BW
* Original Area: Offline Echo Support
Now that George is back to issuing registrations and the echo has two
moderators, it is back to BW support (instead of the bickering and
fighting it was doing when there was no moderator in sight).
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:16:14
EID:499d 2236ba00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e69fbe
-> On 18 Jan 97 02:16:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Why not, Al? Zero works quite well mathematically.
JB> Uh, as far as I can see, math doesn't work at all without zero. You
JB> get to 9 and there's nowhere else to go.
For using positive integers, there are rather convoluted ways
of working around it:
A: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X ... C ... D ... M
B: Un, dous, trois, quatre, cinq, six, sept, huit, neuf, dix ...
vingt ... quatre-vingt ... cent ... mille
I don't think that an abacus has a notation for zero, other
than a blank....
However, the Zero does make arabic base-10 arithmatic a lot
easier to handle! (and spell!) I think the French version
just may be one of the toughest to use.
... Einstein has "I before E" wrong twice in his name.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ...
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:18:20
EID:65b8 2236ba40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6a03c
-> On 20 Jan 97 05:18:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Al Schroeder
-> Re: ...
AS> be found in Augustine's writings, where he describes a miracle, when
AS> the world "stops" around him and he sees into deeper things.
JB> WOW!! You mean like 'I'm mellllllting into the color...can't you see
JB> it'?
Strange... I sent him a post that could have been a poor
carbon copy of that one!
Far fucking out, man!
... "I seem to be having these recurring visions of deja vu": MontyPython
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:25:24
EID:2b56 2236bb20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6a1e5
-> On 20 Jan 97 01:55:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
RC> Shall we combine the two? "Beavis and Biblehead" anyone?
JB> Too bad you don't have internet access You'd love this one.
JB> http://www.cfw.com/~steven8r/church.html
JB> The Church of Beavis Christ.
Damn you! Forcing me to spend my kid's legacy and upgrade
my computer! (But, I guess it's for a good cause!)
Is it a big file(s)? If not and it will fit on a 1.44 floppy,
I can find a way to d/l it.
... The Norse gods' favorite music--Ragnarok'n'roll.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: archives
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:29:00
EID:2a29 2236bba0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6a2bd
-> On 14 Jan 97 11:25:00, Judith Bandsma got back to All
JB> I'm looking for archives of the stupidest, most illogical and/or the
JB> most repugnant posts to hit this echo. (In the last year only, please,
JB> I don't have THAT much space.)
Just archive anything that Staal sends. They'll cover any and
all of the above.
As to repugnant, those of Ken Weins probably take top honors
in that category.
... "Weins" is a typo for "wines", but is missing the "h" to complete it.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:35:12
EID:5827 2236bc60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6a431
-> On 21 Jan 97 11:11:21, Jason Harmon got back to Fredric Rice
FR> And a double standard? What if a boy wore black lipstick to school?
JH> He would be sent to talk to the counselor.
Or sent to an audition as a back-up singer for KISS.
... I plan to live forever, or die trying.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: brett johnson; jealou
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:40:12
EID:d362 2236bd00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6a55d
-> On 21 Jan 97 16:43:16, Marilyn Burge got back to Curtis Johnson
MB> It is no accident that the names Ramoses and Moses are as close as
MB> they are. Many OT scholars believe that Ramoses II WAS Moses, and
MB> _Mythology's Last Gods_ is a pretty good read. It was originally a
So, Marilyn, just how much money do you make each year off of
shilling books for publishers/authors?
Thanks for adding to my LIBRARY file!
... "Gotta peddle faster, the truth is after me . . ."
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: CEPPA HAS HIS HEAD UP HIS
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:47:58
EID:b377 2236bde0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6a72f
-> On 20 Jan 97 20:15:19, Bill Wolff got back to Martin Goldberg
BW> Sagan admits that the fossil record could be consistent with
MG> You are a liar.
BW> Buzz! Wrong answer!
Of course it is, to your lying ass.
Get it through your thick head that you have been debunked
from here to eternity, Billy Boy.
Your 'damage control' has been doing more damage that has
already been afflicted upon you. Keep up the good work and
there won't be a think left of you other than the atoms that
once formed you.
... "I could prove Carl Sagan wrong, but what would that get me?" B Wolff
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Patriot
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:08:32
EID:28b9 22370100
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6ac00
-> On 20 Jan 97 20:33:58, Patriot got back to Dan Ceppa
Pa> the pilot. We should let Him take over, and just enjoy the ride.
DC> That explains why your car looks like it's been recycled already.
Pa> I KNEW someone was spying on me.. :)
No, just a check on your insurance records, Ken.
Pa> ANd I said we SHOULD let Him take over. I never said we always do.
Then, either your god is a very poor driver or non-existant.
Which one is it?
... God is just as compassionate as the people who created him.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Patriot
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:13:56
EID:1248 223701a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6ad44
-> On 20 Jan 97 20:35:36, Patriot got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> No, it's all based on the fact that Swaggart is a lying sack of
DC> shit that uses his religion as an exuse to continue to be a
DC> lying sack of shit.
Pa> Oh, he lies? Then I am sure you have an example or two so we will
Pa> know you aren't just talking..
How long was Swaggart seaking around and seeing Debra Mcphree
on a pay by fuck basis, Ken? At the same time, the bastard
was decrying pornography and wanton sex. When the fucker
was caught, it was with her and in his car with a shitload
of porn magazines in his car.
Kiss Swaggart's ass, Ken. After all, he cried tears galore
when he was caught. Then, a bit later, he was caught again.
... Jimmy Swaggart's home for wayward girls: Paradise Motel!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Patriot
|Sub: freedom and life
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:16:56
EID:673a 22370200
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6adf8
-> On 21 Jan 97 11:48:26, Patriot got back to Robert Curry
RC> who really and truly did suffer the agonies of crucifixion, lasting
RC> sometimes for days.
Pa> He came as man, thus He could feel pain like any other man..
And, as a man, he didn't stay dead like every other man that
has ever died, did he, Young.
... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Hey!
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:18:58
EID:12bd 22370240
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6ae73
-> On 20 Jan 97 16:39:31, Ed Mills got back to Richard Smith
EM> Where'dja go, you old cuss?
Good question (though I know the answer), as I haven't seen
a message from him in some time.
... Heck is reserved for all that don't believe in Gosh...
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:23:18
EID:c41f 223702e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6af76
-> On 21 Jan 97 09:02:48, David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa
DW> 20 Jan 97 20:35, Jonathan Fingas wrote to Dan Ceppa:
JF> Let me guess.... you're rich, aren't you? Only the people with no
JF> material want ignore God. Then the second they have a problem, they
JF> come crawling back.
DW> You filthy capitalist swine, you.
DW> Gimme $50.
Only if you pay this promissory note that you owe me $100,000.
Hell, if you do that, I'll give you half of it back, plus
the $50!
... I'm just here for moral support...ignore the gun....
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:36:00
EID:756f 22370480
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6b271
-> On 20 Jan 97 02:06:00, Judith Bandsma got back to All
DC>> Bull****. Your godling was there for the Jews. It was Saul who
JF> Why do you keep referring to Jesus as a godling? He was (or rather,
JB> Or did god Dan really say 'Bull-stars'?
God fucking damn, Judith... I don't even know what the hell
a 'Bull-shit-stars' are.
However, I do know someone that thinks they are in the possession
of their own personal Purity Filter.
Now, to re-watch George Carlin and get back up to speed on
the proper use of the Seven Words...
... "Fuck you and everybody that looks like you", mused Pooh Carlin.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Idiot postings
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:43:52
EID:89b1 22370560
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6b448
-> On 21 Jan 97 20:37:57, David Worrell got back to Patriot
P> Now, on to "Xtian." WHy use this? ISn't this just trying to take
P> Christ out of Christianity?
DW> Do *any* of you Christers know this history of your religion? The
DW> abbreviation "xtian" was coined *by* a Christian. Here's a hint for
DW> you: how did the Greeks spell Christ?
Here's a bigger hint: The appelation had to be that way, as
it is Greek, not Araimic or Judaic in origin.
... "Hey, let's steal the hubcaps off this cart!": Jesus, age 17
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:48:56
EID:6f61 22370600
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6b579
-> On 21 Jan 97 11:11:21, Jason Harmon got back to Al Schroeder
RH> Her answer was that she would not remember me. Now, since we have
AS> What???? Where does she get that?
JH> Maybe it's "God's plan" for keeping us happy.
JH> Would you be happy if you knew your wife was burning for eternity?
Raising my hand! (Maybe hell _is_ a good thing after all!)
... I still miss my ex-wife, but my aim is getting better.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Mormonism isn't even close to Christianity
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:53:22
EID:4861 223706a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6b682
-> On 20 Jan 97 18:00:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Al Schroeder
...................... ^^^^^^^^^^^^
DG> Hi Dan.
DG> Sorry, guys, Mormonism isn't even CLOSE to Christianity, or at least,
Hi, Darryl, and your other brother, Darryl.
Do you have any idea how to use your OLR?
... I'm not interested in your dopey religious cult.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Patriot
|Sub: Most Read Book
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:55:04
EID:f0a0 223706e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6b6e9
-> On 21 Jan 97 11:39:32, Patriot got back to Marilyn Burge
MB> YOU do YOUR homework. Many of them were deists, which is a long loooooong
Pa> SOME were deists, most were not. From Washington to Adams, America's
Both deits, Kenny. Try again.
... God choose his workers by availability NOT ability....
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 23 Jan 97 00:58:14
EID:a232 22370740
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6b7a6
-> On 18 Jan 97 02:26:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Don Martin
DM> incidentally, is the Hopi.
JB> With a WONDERFUL tradition. The man is never allowed to even *look*
at
JB> his mother-in-law.
I wish I had never had that opportunity. Where are these gems
of wisdom when you really need them?
... Christianity: mental loitering with intent.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Native Americans
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:05:10
EID:a232 223708a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6b947
-> On 18 Jan 97 09:41:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Perhaps she should have read a bit first before jumping into
DC> the fray.
JB>
JB> Perhaps she should have been allowed to read more than selected short
JB> subjects before being encouraged to enter the echo.
That too. My kids have seen some selected messages from here,
but nowhere near the brunt of them. As much as I give them
credit for good comprehension, I doubt if the two of them
together could seriously wade through the real content
without a lot of supervision at every turn.
As much as age is not supposed to be a factor, maturity is
moreso. Few, if any, that have posted here at about 17 or
younger have lasted long. Perhaps we should start a Junior
Holysmoke Echo to give the rug-rats a running start!
... New ideas don't happen by following the proscribed path
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Native Americans
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:07:48
EID:a232 223708e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6b9e5
-> On 18 Jan 97 09:43:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Good question. However, the fact remains that syphilis was a
DC> childhood disease in this hemisphere when the Europeans contracted
JB> Should be able to answer some of these questions shortly. Got a book
JB> today called Plagues and Peoples, about how disease influenced
JB> societal formations and growth.
JB> I have 2 books ahead of it so give me a couple weeks.
No problem. Got my info from Glodberg. I do think that what
you read will confirm his info.
If not, you get to fight it out with him!
... What was the last thing to go thru Kurt Cobain's mind? His Teeth!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Patriot
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:11:36
EID:48af 22370960
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6bac8
-> On 20 Jan 97 20:31:54, Patriot got back to David Worrell
DW> Here's a hint, dumbass. What about all the other
DW> possible gods? Don't you think they're gonna be a
DW> little pissed that you spent your life worshipping Jehovah?
Pa> You tell me.. DO many of them have much against worshipping other
Pa> gods?
Got any god(s) that exist(s), Ken? Evidence, like a tissue
sample, would do for a start.
... If you understand the bible, how can you believe in it?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Personal jabs
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:32:18
EID:4e57 22370c00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6bfa2
-> On 20 Jan 97 16:31:01, Ed Mills got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> from text in a message. Plus, before I save the stolen text,
DC> I can edit it as necessary.
DC> ... Ed Mills, you NEED Blue Wave! <---see!
EM> I'll download it, but I don't even know what a "tosser" is. Ppoint
It get's a bit complicated, but not overly so. (I figured it
out, but that's because I'm a god! )
EM> terminal and the text editor. Is the Binkley terminal thing what
EM> does the tossing?
Nope, that the program that runs your modem to do the up/dl's.
EM> to lean too much on any one person, and he's already been so kind
EM> as to let me schlep mail off his system. :)
Ask him to turn on the Offline and/or Bluewave echoes, as
well as the Ppoint echo, as that's what you are using.
Anyhow, when you do a d/l, you get a file like "200af01.SU0"
That's the first d/l (per the *.SU0 extension) that you will
get on some Sunday. I'm guessing, but the "2" may mean in
Februrary...
Anyhow, that's the "raw messages". They are tossed by a
program into readable format by an OLR. Terminate does
that to a JAM-type format, though there are others. PPOINT
does the same, but into it's own format for use with it's
own OLR.
I use OMX to change the JAM messages into a Blue Wave compatable
format. Thre, I use the BW OLR to read/respond/enter new messages.
I use the reverse in OMX to take the messages I wrote
and send them back to Terminate for sending to my BOSS.
Takes a bit of keying and some time in the translation, but it
works for me.
Perhaps I'll see you in some of the above echos. I know that
Steve Quarella is interested in a similar system for Silver
Express. If there's an interest, perhaps it could become
seamless, as mine, as it stands, requires a bit of kludging
to get back and forth from the d/l and reader. But, that's
the price I pay as a martyred god!
... I'm only a god. What the hell do you expect of me!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Patriot
|Sub: reading incomprehensi
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:34:46
EID:de5e 22370c40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6c036
-> On 21 Jan 97 12:22:42, Patriot got back to Gwenny the Pooh
GtP> But you don't see me blowing up churches or shooting
GtP> ministers.
Pa> EVERYTHING it stands for? To me, CHristanity stands for love, peace,
Pa> justice, and freedom.. Not exactly horrible concepts..
Too bad your religion's history has not come close to living
up to your expectations of it, Kenny.
... What are these churches now if not the tombs and sepulchers of God?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SUPERSTION
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:38:36
EID:edda 22370cc0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6c11c
-> On 13 Jan 97 08:49:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Al Schroeder
JB> Identical twins, playing the games that twins do...PRETENDING TO BE
JB> EACH OTHER (in this case, one having a handy stand-in) could very
JB> easily fool people who had known 'him' for a very long time.
LMAO!
I knew a guy in college that didn't know that he was
dating twins! They trade off on him when one or the other
didn't get a date for that weekend.
Funniest thing was that he ended up marrying the twin that
didn't like him.
... +Origin: MENDELIAN NETWORK: Cross-pollinating myths for Jesus!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SUPERSTION
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:40:02
EID:edda 22370d00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6c173
-> On 15 Jan 97 05:34:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Lynda Bustilloz
LB> Your problem was promoting a soap opera. That's BARB'S gig. Al prefers
LB> superhero comics.
JB> How can anyone revere a character who hasn't changed his clothes in
50
JB> years?
Accute nasal congestion?
... And now, for something completely different.....
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: The Alignment List
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:43:24
EID:d672 22370d60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6c23c
-> On 20 Jan 97 16:09:28, J.J. Hitt got back to Brian Shreve
BS> I think I should stop before I endure JJ's wrath.
JH> I don't see why not. Everyone else is able to endure it.
JH> Besides, they think you're me. (Which is as close to damnnation
JH> as anything this medium has to offer.)
He's not you? Why not?
If he is, why would he admit such a thing????
The possibilities are simply staggering to the mind... I
think I'll have another keg of beer and sort it out in
the morning.
... "He killed her in a rit of fealous jage." Inspector Clouseau
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: the pitter-patter of
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:53:26
EID:7d58 22370ea0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6c497
-> On 19 Jan 97 03:56:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Martin Goldberg
(What's this? The respond to Judith packet packet?)
MG> out. Those nurses who have an ounce of intelligence move on to do
MG> other things including being managers and the like. If you only knew
JB> the robotic end of the profession, where your livelihood depends on
JB> being able to say 'yes, doctor' with a smile on your face while wanting
JB> to scream 'asshole'.
I knew a nurse that did exactly that. It may have helped that
she was the Head Nurse of the facility. It may have helped
even more that she was a former Major in the Nurse's Corps
in the Army.
However, she did call the Head Doctor an asshole in just
as few words, plus a few choicer ones.
The doctor wanted her fired on the spot. She said, "OK"
The rest of the staff said that they would walk out the
door with her.
From then on, the doctor called her, "Sir".
I do miss that tough daughter-of-a-bitch. She was the fairest
person I've even worked with. The toughest, but the fairest.
... Rose Vielkind, you and Sophie Silberman are a pair that always win.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:05:18
EID:6bd4 223668a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e61143
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32e5039d
PID: GED3 2.5
21 Jan 97 12:24, Don Martin wrote to Curtis Johnson:
DM> Another interesting point: notice that elephants are
DM> used for carrying (both trunk and back), pushing, and
DM> dragging logs and such, but not for drawing. I have never
DM> seen an elephant cart depicted anywhere. Certainly it has
DM> the mass and the strength to draw, but somehow has
DM> apparently not been found suitable for the task.
That might be an engineering concern, rather than something inherent in
elephants. Making a suitable cart that will ride level for a horse (or similar
sized animal) is one thing - making one for an elephant would be a bit more
difficult, especially when considering the materials generally available.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Patriot
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:44:48
EID:0644 22366d80
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e619f0
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32e462da
PID: GED3 2.5
21 Jan 97 01:31, Patriot wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Here's a hint, dumbass. What about all the other
DW>> possible gods? Don't you think they're gonna be a
DW>> little pissed that you spent your life worshipping Jehovah?
P> You tell me.. DO many of them have much against worshipping other
P> gods?
Do you have anything against other men sleeping with your wife?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:48:28
EID:0477 22366e00
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e61adc
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 112a2483
PID: GED3 2.5
19 Jan 97 11:10, John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> That's just too damn bad, ain't it? If you don't like being in
DW>> the "Raving Loon" category, you need to make some changes in your
DW>> life.
JB> Appleton's a creationist. 'Nuff said.
Indeed.
"He's a Scientologist! I'm not a raving loon like *him*, I'm a Hare Krishna!"
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Dander raising
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:49:16
EID:a23c 22366e20
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e61b8b
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 cec26458
PID: GED3 2.5
19 Jan 97 11:13, John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> As we so often tell the other fundies, it is not our
DW>> responsibility to go out and dig for evidence to support your
DW>> claims. If you've got
JB> As I so often tell the fundie-atheists: Without sufficient interest
on
JB> your part,
Interest that it is up to you to cultivate, John. All I've seen so far sounds
like the ravings of a madman, and a egotistical one at that (now *meteors*
appear at your command?!).
DW>> something, present it. If it interests anyone, I'm sure they'll
DW>> be happy to dig through your "reading list" looking for more.
JB> To date, no fundie-atheist has dug through the reading list at all,
Considering the source of said list, I really can't blame any of them. You
come off like a nutcase, John. I can't speak for anyone else here, but don't
have enough free time to dig into what inspired your lunacy.
DW>> All you've offered up to this point is bullshit. If I want to see
DW>> more
JB> Liar.
Still bullshit, John.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: truth
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:53:06
EID:725a 22366ea0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e61bf5
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 51b28267
PID: GED3 2.5
19 Jan 97 11:24, John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Indeed. It is hard to be subjected to something that doesn't
DW>> exist.
JB> Even harder to find yourself subjected to something you wouldn't
JB> recognize if it jumped up and bit your ass.
I'm sure it is.
DW> DW>>> I guess the 500k of your posts I've got here don't count,
DW> DW>>> eh?
JB>> Depends on your definition of "get someone's goat,"
DW>> Keep dancing, John.
JB> Keep imagining, David.
Like I imagined your recent attempts at circling the wagons with the Todds,
baitboy?
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: HomeSchool
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:53:56
EID:b243 22366ea0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e61c1e
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 dbcc6400
PID: GED3 2.5
21 Jan 97 18:47, John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Shit. First McCullough bails, now Gwen follows suit. What's your
DW>> excuse gonna be, Brawley? A triple by-pass, or some such
DW>> nonsense?
JB> Nope. Your balderdash suffers recently from lack of creativity,
Recently? So the Quantum Bait Shop *was* creative? Thanks.
---
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US CyberCensor Law
|Date: 23 Jan 97 09:55:52
EID:c5f9 22374ee0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 2e787fab
CHRS: IBMPC 2
* Forwarded (from: INETMAIL) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd 1.10+.
* Originally from --Todd Lappin-- (1:382/87) to terry liberty-parker (1:382/804).
* Original dated: Thu Jan 23, 09:45
From: --Todd Lappin--
THE CDA DISASTER NETWORK
January 22, 1997
Quietly and without much fanfare, the run-up to the Supreme Court's review
of the Communications Decency Act has now gotten underway.
I have two major pieces of news to report:
First, we now know when we'll have our day in the nation's highest court.
It's official -- on Wednesday March 19, 1997 at 10 AM, the nine justices
of
the US Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in the case of Janet Reno,
Attorney General of the United States v. American Civil Liberties Union
et
al. Mark your calendars and datebooks, because March 19 will be a watershed
moment in the history of free speech on the Internet.
In another piece of important news, on Tuesday, January 21, 1997 the US
Department of Justice filed their first brief in support of the CDA before
the Supreme Court.
(A full text version of the DoJ brief is available at:
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/SC_appeal/970121_DOJ_brief.html )
I received a copy of the DoJ brief last night, and after spending a few
hours pouring through its 14,000 words, I can promise you that this
document won't win any literary prizes for 1997.
In truth, the thing reads with all the passion of a coroner's report. But
the cold detachment does nothing to diminish the thinness of the
Government's argument that the CDA is fully constitutional and that "there
are no alternatives that would be equally effective in advancing the
Government's interests" in shielding minors from inappropriate material.
Elsewhere, Janet Reno's footsoldiers claim, "Because the CDA's restrictions
are all facially constitutional, and because any infirmity in those
provisions could not justify the [Philadelphia] district court's sweeping
injunction, the district court's judgment should be reversed."
How does the Government reach this stunning conclusion?
It begins with a bizarre argument that censoring the Internet is an
effective way to defend the ideals of the First Amendment. The DoJ brief
says:
"Parents and their children have a First Amendment right to receive
information and acquire knowledge ... and the Internet has unmatched
potential to facilitate that interest. Much of the Internet's potential
as
an educational and informational resource will be wasted, however, if
people are unwilling to avail themselves of its benefits because they do
not want their children harmed by exposure to patently offensive sexually
explicit material. The government therefore not only has an especially
strong interest in protecting children from patently offensive material
on
the Internet, it has an equally compelling interest in furthering the First
Amendment interest of all Americans to use what has become an unparalleled
educational resource."
In other words, the Government's defense of Internet censorship boils down
to a paternalistic, "tough love" argument that "this hurts me more than
it
hurts you."
The DoJ then moves on to cite a 1968 case as justification for the
provisions of the CDA which prohibit the sending of indecent material to
children with knowledge that the recipient is under 18:
"Those provisions are essentially no different from the prohibition on the
sale of indecent material to minors upheld in Ginsberg v. New York. Like
that prohibition, the transmission and specific child provisions [of the
CDA] directly prevent the dissemination of indecent material to children
without prohibiting adult access to that material."
The problem here is that no viable systems currently exist that allow
noncommercial Internet publishers to verify the age of individuals
receiving potentially "indecent" online material. (Consider, for example,
that as the publisher of this mailing list, it is impossible for me to
verify how old you are as you read this message.) The DoJ glosses over this
issue of age verification with a dreamy glance toward the technological
future, saying:
"Those who post indecent material on Web sites for commercial purposes can
ensure that only adults have access to their material by requiring a credit
card number or an adult ID. Similarly, operators of noncommercial Web sites
can use adult verification services for that purpose. There are also ways
to communicate through other Internet applications that would not expose
children to indecency. And, as technology evolves, the opportunities for
adult-to-adult communication of indecent material will expand even further"
What will these "opportunities for adult-to-adult communication" look like?
The DoJ seems to have two scenarios in mind -- both of which seem absurd
when applied to the Internet.
The first assumes that the Internet can be regulated much like broadcast
television. Citing the 1978 Supreme Court case of FCC v. Pacifica, the
brief argues:
"Just as it was constitutional for the FCC to channel indecent broadcasts
to times of the day when children most likely would not be exposed to them,
so Congress could channel indecent communications to places on the Internet
where children are unlikely to obtain them. Indeed, there is a stronger
justification for the display provision than there was for the restriction
approved in Pacifica. The indecency problem on the Internet is much more
pronounced than it is on broadcast stations."
So what is to be done? Here the DoJ moves on to make it's second
assumption -- that censorship will consign all "indecent" online material
to an Internet "red light district" that minors cannot enter. Again
relying on earlier precedents, the DoJ puts forth the idea that:
"City of Renton v. Playtime Theatres, Inc. (1986) and Young v. American
Mini Theatres, Inc. (1976) also support the constitutionality of the [CDA's
provisions which ban the display of "indecent" material in areas where they
can be seen by minors]. In effect, the display provision operates as an
adult "cyberzoning" restriction, very much like the adult theater zoning
ordinances upheld in Renton and Young. Just as the cities of Detroit and
Renton could direct adult theaters away from residential neighborhoods,
so
Congress could direct purveyors of indecent material away from areas of
cyberspace that are easily accessible to children."
Of course, the only feasible way to create such a system of "cyberzoning"
would be to deploy a less restrictive system that uses filtering software
to facilitate parental control and shield minors from inappropriate online
material. However, citing the ostensible "wisdom" of Congress, the DoJ
explicitly rejects this approach:
"Congress reasonably determined that commercial software that attempts to
screen out indecent information only partially addresses the problem. Such
software cannot identify all existing sexually explicit sites; it cannot
keep pace with the rapid emergence of numerous new sexually explicit sites;
it places the entire burden on parents; and it is owned by only a small
fraction of Americans."
Finally, the DoJ challenges the Philadelphia court's decision that the
CDA's speech restrictions are unconstitutionally vague. (The CDA, you will
recall, uses criminal penalties to restrict the dissemination of material
that, "in context, depicts or describes, in terms patently offensive as
measured by contemporary community standards, sexual or excretory
activities or organs.")
Does that mean that the CDA's "indecency" provisions effectively ban the
use of George Carlin's so-called "Seven Dirty Words" in cyberspace?
Classic works of literature that contain sexual content? AIDS education
information?
Sure seems that way. Yet the DoJ wants the Supreme Court to pretend
otherwise. They argue:
"The historical meaning of the CDA's indecency definition and the CDA's
legislative history indicate that the kind of graphic pictures that appear
in soft-porn and hard-core porn magazines almost always would be covered,
while material having scientific, educational, or news value almost always
would not be covered. There may be borderline cases in which it is
difficult to determine on which side of the line particular material falls.
But that does not show that the CDA's definition of indecency is
unconstitutionally vague."
We'll see what the Supremes have to say about all this come March.
And in the meantime...
Work the network!
--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
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The CDA Disaster Network is a moderated distribution list providing
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WARNING: This is not a test! WARNING: This is not a drill!
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---
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: 2 ACLU News 01-22-97: Internet, Same-Sex Marriage, Wiretaps, And
More
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:22:38
EID:47b1 223752c0
SPLIT: 23 Jan 97 10:59:25 @382/804 6 02/02 +++++++++++
CHRS: IBMPC 2
recommending medical marijuana to their patients. The defendants named
in
the suit are the key federal officials involved in drafting and implementing
the Clinton administration strategy.
Proposition 215 altered California law by creating a new exemption for a
specific group of people -- seriously ill patients who are using marijuana
on
the "recommendation or approval" of a physician. If an arrested patient
is to
be exonerated, he or she must prove that a physician advised that marijuana
was medically appropriate for that patient.
At a news conference announcing the suit, Jo Daly, a former police
commissioner of San Francisco and a patient who uses marijuana medically,
said, "The federal government is trying to intimidate the doctors who treat
me for cancer. Marijuana literally saved my life by stopping the horrible
vomiting caused by my chemotherapy. Bureaucrats like Barry McCaffrey want
to
get in between me and my doctors and make me another victim of their drug
policies. This began as a war on drugs, now it's become a war on doctors."
The ACLU's lawsuit contends that the Administration's plan to prosecute
From: ACLU Newsfeed Owner
doctors who prescribe marijuana for pateints with illnesses like cancer
and
AIDS intrudes on the dcotor-patient relationship in violation of the First
Amendment.
"The lawsuit doesn't deal with whether marijuana is efficacious as a medicine
or not whether people should be smoking it or taking it," said Dr. Marcus
A.
Conant, in an interview with the New York Times. Conant, an AIDS specialist
in San Francisco, is the lead plaintiff in the case. "The suit is all about
freedom of speech."
In response to the ongoing controversy, the Clinton Administration recently
ordered an 18-month study of clinical, medical and scientific evidence on
the
medical use of marijuana.
USA Today's Baby Boomer panel approved the initiative. "Why can't we stop
all our bitching and moaning, spend some money and figure out what the
medical uses really are?" asked William Paprota of Overland Park, Kansas.
"Why can't we explore it a little bit?"
----------------------------------------------------------------
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---
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: STEVE KEMP
|To: ROB BURCHAM
|Sub: .
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:01:00
EID:caa6 22366820
MSGID: 1:203/49 2599cc95
TID: GE 1.2
RB>AS> And that's still a wise decision. Tell people how much you love
RB>AS> them NOW. Tomorrow may be too late.
RB>Hey everybody, I love you! Whew! I feel better.
Gee! Thanks (blush)
---
* CMPQwk #1.42-R2* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Slave
|Date: 22 Jan 97 19:37:00
EID:e5ee 22369ca0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 0b13569c
>RC>All those who choose the mental slavery of religious dogmatism, yes.
>RC>So your masters have finally allowed you to speak! How intriguing.
> ALL!! Are under mental slavery. Your master is satan. Only satan
> wants Christianity to be attacked - and you are doing just what he
> wants you to do.
Hey, genius... Satan is a Christian concept. Those outside of
your dogmatic dictates do not accept either as a master.
We merely master the art of exposing the ignorance of those
who insist upon acknowledging the supposed existence of either.
Posting dogmatic diatribe does nothing to credit your disguise.
You are obviously some non-theist attempting to pull other
non-theist's strings. Otherwise, you would have something at least
semi-rational to offer in defense of Christianity. If by some
remote chance you actually DO believe any of your nonsense,
you do fellow Christians an injustice by your apparent lack of
any understanding thereof.
> If you weren't a slave to satan you wouldn't care
> one way or the other.
Care enough to be apathetic. Unless you don't want to.
It makes no difference whatsoever to what is or what isn't.
Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: All
|Sub: Conference Guidelines
|Date: 22 Jan 97 19:38:00
EID:0724 22369cc0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 0b13569d
Re: HOLYSMOKE Echo Guidelines
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Basic Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in this echo are those of the writers
identified in the header of each message. No other responsibility
is expressed or implied for the content of the messages in this echo.
Rules to Follow:
[1] Please refrain from attempting to force your ideas on others,
or to be deliberately disruptive in the echo.
Those who engage in such activity may find their feed to this
echo terminated.
[2] As is customary in echomail, private messages are not allowed.
[3] If you wish to post messages on this echo please try to keep
your comments and ideas on a rational level. This will help
to facilitate an open and free flowing dialogue.
Please refrain from entering statements like:
"I know I'm right and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid!"
or
"You're gonna burn in hell if you don't accept god."
Such messages only serve to irritate others, and do little
more than to raise the noise level of the echo.
[4] Attempt to quote only relevant text, in order to make your
messages more legible, and to lessen the burden on those
who pay to move each byte posted in this conference.
[5] Deliberate censorship of wording contained within a quote
attributed to another in this echo is expressly forbidden.
Echo Purpose: (To let you hear what you just said) ;-)
This echo provides an open forum where one can argue for or against
religion(s). Both religious and anti-religious views are allowed.
Atheists, agnostics, religious right-wingers, bible babblers,
bible bashers, preachers of doom, echovangelists, conservatives,
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in HOLYSMOKE. (As long as they abide by the guidelines above!)
Enjoy and happy debating!
Styx Allum, Moderator (1:152/20)
P.O. Box 5150
Eugene, OR 97405-0150
---
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 21 Jan 97 16:38:30
EID:1eb3 223584c0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32e633da
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32db03f8
Hi Al...
On 13 Jan 97 20:19:43, Al Schroeder penned the following to Martin Goldberg
re: Bacteria and Evolution.
AS> Yep. Do you have a better suggestion for how to test whether prayer
AS> actually works or not?
No need to "test" it, Al. Prayer does indeed work in some
situations, but it isn't cumulative, that is, it only works on
the person doing the praying and it only works on certain
things.
It should be noted that the type of "prayer" isn't relevant,
nor is the subject (like God or a deity) of the prayer. What is
important is attitude and positive thinking, which has an
effect on physical as well as mental health. That was known
long before "Positive Thinking" became capitalized as a
self-help option. God doesn't grant you things, YOU do. The
prayer is merely reinforcement.
It is also significant that laughter can have the same or
even better effect, especially with medical conditions of
various kinds. "Laughter is the best medicine" is not merely a
cliche, but was a fact of life when there was very little
"medicine" to be had.
Personally, given the opportunity to go to a church service or
watching a Marx Brothers movie on TV I'd take Chico over
Christo... B-})
John
... Chico of Borg: "Resistance? Atsa no good!"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 21 Jan 97 16:58:06
EID:505c 22358740
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32e633db
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da145d
Hi Gwenny...
On 13 Jan 97 10:47:37, Gwenny the Pooh penned the following to Marty Leipzig
re: Cheese Whiz
KB>> Yes, but we don't need to eat flesh. You can live a perfectly
KB>> happy life as a vegetarian.
GtP>> Maybe YOU can, I can't. Seriously, I can't get all the chemicals
I
GtP>> need from legumes (besides the fact they make me ill). So it's meat
GtP>> or be miserable for me.
What many Vegans fail to realize is that everyone is different.
GtP> hernia which causes me mild discomfort if I only eat toast and coffee
GtP> for breakfast or, horrors, chili. (I think it's the beans) Having
Not to plug a commercial product or anything, but there is a
concoction called "Beano" in your drugstore's stomach remedy
department. It's an enzyme that helps digest complex sugars.
ML> I'd kill for a 64 oz. porterhouse, blood rare. Unfortunately,
GtP> I'm still confused as to why meat would be a problem. Wouldn't any
GtP> food catch in the little pouches??
I suspect there is more at work than the "little pouches".
Digestion is a complex process and it requires a balance of
enzymes and acids to function correctly. Fibre helps
it all work properly rather than protein.
ML> Oh, and I take gobs of vitamins, minerals and amino acids.
ML> I wish they made them in beef flavor though...
How about beef consomme soup? Or sucking on an OXO cube? B-})
GtP> Yeah, because you can't get them from the natural source,
GtP> cow/deer/bison/pig flesh. I hope you feel better.
I hope he feels better too...
RevJohn
... "Be it ever so decadent, there's no place like home!" - T. Lehrer
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:13:22
EID:86e5 223751a0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88dd46ad
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 12-Jan-1997, "Bacteria & Evolution.)
DC> -> On 11 Jan 97, Laurie Appleton got back to Al Schroeder
AS> niches left vacated by the dinosaurs...exactly as predicted
AS> by evolutionary theory. It is a prediction which has been
AS> borne out by the evidence.
LA> Are you now saying that God did NOT make the Dinosaurs
LA> like a good "clock maker" would do and that is why they did
DC> Of course not, Laurie. He's basing his statements on
DC> evidence.
What evidence is that? Don't you know that Punctuated
Equilibria evolutionists tell us that survival of the
fittest does NOT always apply and that more often than not
the evidence indicates "survival of the LUCKIEST".
They say that this applies particularly to Dinosaurs!
Prof. S.J. Gould writes;
"But, like sex, extinction is an ineluctable part of life.
It is the ultimate fate of all species, NOT the lot of
unfortunate and ill-designed creatures. It is NO sign of
failure."
(The Panda's Thumb, S.J. Gould, (1987 Penguin reprint), p.
220)(emphasis added)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38033908 V34+ Node 2 (3:640/238)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: "Atheists who do no good"
|Date: 23 Jan 97 02:30:34
EID:95d5 223713c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6cd4b
-> On 21 Jan 97 10:07:48, John Brawley got back to Lee Woofenden
DW> ! Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
LW> How come you have John Brawley's origin line?
JB> Leave it alone, Lee.... You'll just provoke the fool.
The fool that was provoked was Lee, John. And, he does
that all on his own.
... Concrete minds...stirred up..full of rocks...and permantly set!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 23 Jan 97 02:41:38
EID:63f0 22371520
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6cfe3
-> On 18 Jan 97 13:56:00, Michael Hardy got back to Fredric Rice
MH> Please excuse Michael for his absence from last night's meeting. He
MH> was sick in bed with a hangover from another meeting the night before.
MH> Signed, Epstein's mother."
I'd say you've watched too much TV, but I know the reference source.
BTW, not sure if your've been off-line, but I haven't seen a
message from you to anyone in a while.
Things alright?
... The LOTTERY: A tax on people who are bad at math!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 23 Jan 97 02:46:18
EID:63f0 223715c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6d0fb
-> On 21 Jan 97 14:40:00, Michael Hardy got back to Lynda Bustilloz
AS> (page 10) me so.
AS> Communication; the Bible; think about it.
LB> And how do we KNOW the bible is true? Because it's God's word.
LB> Circularity; the Bible; think about it.
MH> OTOH, it explains where Al gets his wordiness. Barth takes ten pages
MH> to communicate a simple point too. :-)
The only good thing about that was that I'm letting a pizza
burn in the oven rather than having to pee up over the Grand
Canyon. LOL!
BTW, 911 has been called and the family is safe, except for
the gut I just split.
... Can I scrootch him NOW, Cloy?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Becke, slave to satan
|Date: 23 Jan 97 02:55:52
EID:2e8d 223716e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6d339
-> On 21 Jan 97 12:15:01, Al Schroeder got back to George Mooth
GM> BTW, what is the answer to my question. Whne will you choose to be
GM> free and not a slave to satan?
AS> her to come to you...especially since she has a history of abuse and
AS> neglect by the church she was brought up in?
Nice answer, Al. Very nice.
... There are times that a well timed tagline isn't needed.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Ceppa - Holographic [1]
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:02:38
EID:b8e3 22371840
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6d4cf
-> On 21 Jan 97 10:10:14, John Brawley got back to Lee Woofenden
LW> logically demonstrated, but it _is_ relevant to whether we have a
LW> choice about believing in God.
JB> I think we've confused ourselves. I'm not saying that we can't
Of course your have confused yourselves, John. You are claiming
that a god exists and can't back it up with real evidence.
As you know that, you have to do mental gymnastics to make
it work. Why you need to put your efforts into something
that you know isn't there and make it "be" is your problem.
Hope you resolve it some day.
... Appleton: Australia's Great Barrier Geek.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: dark bible #4
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:13:38
EID:376f 223719a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e6d762
-> On 19 Jan 97 06:50:20, John Brawley got back to ROBERT CURRY
JB> I mention also that the only reason I _had_ to claim "within a few
JB> minutes" in my post was that I forgot to take my _watch_ up there....
JB> It could have been right on the money. Sloppy experimental execution
JB> on my part....
Think about, John.
You where at least correct in your assesment as to the outcome.
And, thanks for the honesty in that.
... Science invites inquiry. God dies from that activity.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: STEVE KEMP
|Sub: God came to stay
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:07:52
EID:efe9 223760e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e75499
-> On 21 Jan 97 08:20:00, STEVE KEMP got back to PAUL DAVIS
PD>Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
SK> Sure, why not.
SK> I'm also an agnostic.
SK> I'm a candy AND a breath mint.
SK> O.K. now I'll get serious...I AM all three of the "things" posed
Are your CERTSain about that?
... "Al Schroeder: The Million-Word example of Hector's Law." R Curry
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: "flat earth" town
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:22:54
EID:22c6 223762c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e7581f
-> On 20 Jan 97 14:51:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> KW> Here in TX the aim of education is to pass a standardized test.
DC>that they lower the standards each an every year.
KW> on the test. There is constant pressure to improve the percentage of
KW> students passing the test--with the result that the kids are graduating
KW> knowing nothing but how to take the TASS.
Part of the problem is that they are multiple guess tests. Easier
to grade, but not very conducive for good academics. I dare say
that I could get 50% or higher on such tests in subjects I've
never studied before.
... "Be accurate now. Your words are being recorded for posterity.." PB
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Holysmoke convention
|Date: 23 Jan 97 08:31:54
EID:412a 223743e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32e7715e
REPLY: 1:102/735.0 22368024
Mark Kimes said "Holysmoke convention" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> I have been pondering the "how many naked HolySmokers can you
DM> squeeze into a Las Vegas hotel room" event, in hopes of extracting
DM> some useful knowledge from the experiment, and it occurs to me that
DM> you can probably get _all_ of them (like angels on the head of a
DM> pin) in there if you use a lubricant to enhance packing. The image
DM> of nude echo folk, fragrant with warm olive oil (extra virgin, of
DM> course)
MK> So _that's_ how it happened. Mary attended the first Holysmoke
MK> convention. ___
Wouldn't it be a hoot to find that JC had been sired by
a WOA in a fit of casual abandon?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Brian Shreve
|Sub: RE: HYPOCRITICAL PEOPLE
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:32:10
EID:010a 22377400
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 19 Jan 97 11:41am, BRIAN SHREVE wrote to MARILYN BURGE:
BS> You spoke of choice in abortion issues, you're being pro-choice.
BS> Adding to that, you say you are against abortion.
BS> Oxymoron? Possibly, in the black and white sense you spoke of of others.
BS> But wouldn't you have to admit it does create confusion? One is either
BS> for or against, but if we listen to you, (and I as well) we have a third
BS> addition...that being for _choice_. Choice of what, it's wrong, or it's
BS> right? Nice way to cloud / confuse the issues.
BS>
Actually, it is possible. I'm pro-choice, but am personally against abortion.
(i.e. I myself wouldn't have an abortion under any circumstances, but I
won't
stand in the way or put down someone who does). What's so confusing about
that?
Becke
... Anger not a Redhead, for thou would make a silly trophy on the wall.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 63
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: OMNI-SADISTIC
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:32:10
EID:fa1e 22377400
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 19 Jan 97 07:12am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to ROBERT CURRY:
RC>> BTW, where is Jesus when little children are raped right before
RC>> his allegedly all-seeing eyes?
AS>
AS>> Well, since He is a part of God, who is omnipresent, He is there.
RC>> So Jesus fucks the little children. How sweet.
AS> No; "what you do FOR the least of these, you do for me." He is present
AS> in the victim. But the perpetuator? "Whosoever hateth his brother is
a
AS> murderer; and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in
AS> him"---and rape is essentially an act of violence and hate. And
AS> similarly, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is
AS> not subject ot the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they
AS> that are in the flesh cannot please God."
And in another breath, your bible says "If any man come to me, and hate
not
his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters,
yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26).
Is God condoning murder?? And if not, why do the two above verses directly
contradict each other?
Becke
AS> ... On what conclusion do you base your facts?
AS> --- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
AS> * Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
... Pro-life? Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 66
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Patriot
|Sub: RE: MOST READ BOOK
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:32:12
EID:de4e 22377400
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
MB> On (19 Jan 97) Patriot babbled to Fredric Rice...
P >> Well, why would someone own a book that they would not read? I know
P >> many probably don't, but I just can't understand the concept of that
P >> many people not reading a book they all have.
P >> Actually, according to the Supreme Court (US vs. Trinity Church)
P >> America is indeed a Christian nation.
P >> And if you do your homework, you will discover most of the foundign
P >> father of the USA, were Christians..
Sure about that??
On Christianity:
Thomas Jefferson:
"...Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there
be
one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded
fear.." (1)
Thomas Paine, re: Bible Stories:
"If these stories are false we err in believing them to be true, and ought
not to believe them. It is therefore a duty which every man owes to himself,
and reverentially to his Maker, to ascertain by every possible inquiry
whether there be a sufficient evidence to believe them or not. My own opinion
is, decidedly, that the evidence does not warrant the belief, and that we
sin
in forcing that belief upon ourselves and upon others. In saying this I
have
no other object in view than truth. But that I may not be accused of resting
upon bare assertion, with respect to the equivocal state of the Bible, I
will
produce an example, and I will not pick and cull the Bible for the
purpose."(2)
Thomas Paine:
All histories have been written by men. We have no evidence, nor any cause
to
belive, that any have been written by God. That part of the Bible called
the
old Testament, is the history of the Jewish nation, from the time of Abraham,
which begins i Genesis xi, to the downfall of that nation by Nebuchandnezzar,
and is no more entitled to be called sacred than any other history. It is
altogether the contrivance of priestcraft that has given it that name. So
far
from its being sacred, it has not the appearance of being true in many of
the
things it relates. It must be better authority than a book which an imposter
might make, as Mahomet made the Koran, to make a thoughtful man believe
that
the sun and moon stood still, or that Moses and Aaaron turned the Nile,
which
is larger than the Delaware, into blood; and that the Egyptian magicians
did
the same. These things have too much the appearance of romance to be believed
for fact"(3)
Thomas Paine:
"When we reflect on a sentence so tremendously severe as that of consigning
the whole human race, eight persons excepted, to deliberate drowning; a
sentence, which represents the Creator in a more merciless character than
any
of those who we call Pagans ever represented the Creator to be under the
figure of any of their dieties, we ought at least to suspend our belief
of
it, on a comparison of the beneficient character of the Creator with the
tremendous severity of the sentence; but when we see the story told with
such
evident contradiction of circumstances, we ought to set it down for nothing
better than a Jewish fable told by nobody knows whom and nobody knows
when."(4)
The following quotes will show evidence that the United States WASN'T founded
as a Christian nation:
Thomas Jefferson:
"The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had,
to
a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all latitude of reason
and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the
preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that
its
protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares,
that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our
religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ"
so
that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy
author of our religion"; the insertion was rejected by a great majority,
in
proof that they had meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection,
the Jew and Gentile, the Christian and the Mohometian, the Hindoo, and the
Infidel of every denomination.(5)
Benjamin Franklin:
"And it being found inconvenient to assemble in the open air, subject to
its
inclemencies, the building of a house to meet in was no sooner proposed,
and
persons appointed to recieve contributions, but sufficient sums were soon
recieved to procure the ground and erect the building, which was one hundred
feet long and seventy broad, about the size of Westminster Hall; and the
work
was carried on with such spirit as to be finished in much shorter time than
could have been expected. Both house and ground were vested in trustees,
expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might
desire to say something to the people of Philadelphia; the design in building
not being to accomodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general;
so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to
preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service."(6)
(1)Priestcraft and the Slaughterhouse Religion, Jack Lasley, p. 57
(2)Ibid., p. 88
(3)The Threat of Radical Fundamentalism, Jack Lasley, p. 158
(4)Ibid, p. 164
(5)Ibid, p. 173-174
(6)Ibid, p. 200-201
Now then...when faced with evidence, do you care to rethink your position??
Becke
... *- Christianity: celebrating 2000 years of continuous obsolescence.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 66
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Patriot
|Sub: RE: IDIOT POSTINGS
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:32:12
EID:3f0f 22377400
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 20 Jan 97 08:19pm, PATRIOT wrote to GLEN TODD:
P> Now, on to "Xtian." WHy use this? ISn't this just trying to take
P> Christ out of Christianity?
Not quite. It's an abbreviation, dipshit.
Becke
P> --- Maximus 3.01
P> * Origin: Rabbit Hutch (1:270/420)
... "IT FOUND ME!" -- Campus Crusade for Cthulhu.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 66
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: MASTURBATION
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:32:12
EID:5f6e 22377400
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 20 Jan 97 10:15am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to BECKE BOYER:
AS>> Well, yes...but some might answer that some parts of an agreeable
AS>> member of the opposite sex are made for, also...
BB>> Fine for someone who doesn't spew forth copious amounts, but some of
BB>> us don't have that option..
AS> Ahhh, you've found a geyser, then.
Yep, I've hit white gold..;)
Becke
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 66
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: RE: CHEESE WHIZ
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:32:12
EID:7172 22377400
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 17 Jan 97 08:26pm, LYNDA BUSTILLOZ wrote to MARILYN BURGE:
LB> Dave and Marilyn were killing time yakking about Cheese Whiz:
LB> I was told by my mother once (she was arguing with my father, and like
LB> an idiot made ME her involuntary confidante) that my father's first
LB> reaction to learning of her pregnancy with me (I am the oldest child)
LB> was anxiety and a litany of reasons why it wasn't a "good idea" to have
LB> a child then. He moved past that and was a good father to me. As a
LB> parent and an adult, I understand his concerns completely, and have
LB> felt them myself regarding my own children. I never felt unwanted by
LB> any of his responses to me. But there is an emotional, childlike place
LB> inside that "knows" he had to consciously MAKE himself want me, and
LB> that his first instinct was to wish me into nonexistance. It was
LB> something I very much wish she'd refrained from telling me. I suspect
LB> it has colored my choices regarding my relationships with others more
LB> than I am aware of or would care to admit.
True. Not only in this situation, but in many others. Sometimes your parents
tell you things that, after finding out, you REALLY didn't want to know.
My experience is in the same vein, but a bit different. I was raised by
both
my great-grandmother and great-grandfather, and loved and respected both
very
much. My great-grandfather died in 1985, my great grandmother in 1995.
Right after my great-grandmother's death, my mom let me in on some family
secrets (i.e. my great-grandmother got raped by my great-grandfather as
a
teen, got pregnant, and was forced into marrying him by her parents,
subsequently had a miscarriage due to his beating her, and then stayed with
him until he died under threats to kill her and the rest of her family).
I've completely lost any respect I ever had for my great-grandfather,
needless to say, and at this point, I wish my mother had *never* told me
any
of this.
Becke
... "Baldrick, you have the intellectual capacity of a dirty potato."
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 66
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: RE: THE ALIGNMENT LIST
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:32:14
EID:37c4 22377400
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 17 Jan 97 09:12pm, LYNDA BUSTILLOZ wrote to KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT:
RV>> You expected a women to get it right.??....the 1'st time ?
RV>> Dream on.........................
RV>> { Harpy shield in place & tested }
RV>> [ Pies bounce off/avoid chocolate base materials ]
LB> Kat, look!! Our plan to keep them from eating ANY of the chocolate is
LB> starting to work!
Are the harpies trying to monopolize the chocolate now? ;)
Becke
... Survival tip: Never MOON a werewolf.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 66
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: brett johnson; jealou
|Date: 23 Jan 97 06:46:56
EID:8f61 223735c0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 cb30d8ea
REPLY: 1:261/1137 37040d07
On (23 Jan 97) Curtis Johnson babbled to Marilyn Burge...
MB> _Mythology's Last Gods_ is a pretty good read. It was originally a
MB> doctoral dissertation that later became a modestly selling book.
MB> The author's name is William Harwood. It's in that book, the whole
MB> story.
CJ> It may have been a good read, but I suspect a distortion
CJ> akin to Velikovsky and a few other pseudoarcheologists.
CJ> For what university was this dissertation written? Was it
CJ> a university with a decent archeology/Egyptology department?
B.Ed and M.A. from the University of Calgary in 1972, and 1974,
M.Litt. from the University of Cambridge in 1979, and Ph.D. from
Columbia Pacific University in 1983 for the dissertation on
which this book is based.
Dr. Harwood became interestd in the history of Judaeo-Christian
mythology when, as an undergraduate at Calgary, he was assigned
to write a research paper on "Mystery Religions in the Early
Roman Empire," and discovered that the god-eating ritual in
which he participated weekly as a believing Christian had
existed three thousand years before Jesus' birth. Not for
three years, however, could he fully abandon the disproved
beliefs to which he had been emotionally committed, and
acknowledge that gods are as imaginary as fairies.
The above is verbatim from the dust cover.
... Religion is free but it exacts an enormous price
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: God came to stay
|Date: 22 Jan 97 20:45:12
EID:5390 2236a5a0
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 4d2e6869
REPLY: 2:250/366.22 32deed3e
16 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Paul Davis to All:
PD> This question is open to all, not just claimed-athiests, atheists and
PD> religious types.
Oh good. Often, people post things that can only be answered by
certain groups, and the rest of us just feel so left out.
PD> If someone told you God was staying at his house, would you want to
PD> have a look?
No, I'm too busy reading all the "MAKE MONEY $$$ FAST!" posts in the
newsgroups. :)
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Mormonism isn't even close to Christianity
|Date: 22 Jan 97 21:29:54
EID:c3cb 2236aba0
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 524493ef
REPLY: 1:383/6293 32DB100D
20 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Darryl Gonzalez to Al Schroeder:
DG> Sorry, guys, Mormonism isn't even CLOSE to Christianity, or at least,
DG> not as close as the LDS church would have you believe.
Mormonism isn't like christianity? You mean it's NOT a collection
of archaic superstitions and hopelessly delusional "morality?"
DG> Is that your prayer, too? If it is, and you are a Mormon, repent of
DG> your sins and ask Jesus Christ to come into your life today. Then
DG> leave the church. Find a nearby Baptist or Assemblies of God church,
DG> and join it. I'll be praying for you.
Far out. It's good to know that, should I ever have occasion to
become chronically mentally ill, I'll be able to choose my affliction.
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: prayer
|Date: 22 Jan 97 22:06:32
EID:6c62 2236b0c0
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 0fb73b60
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A794396
18 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Michael Hardy to Lynda Bustilloz:
Howdy:
MH> Yeah, there's less uncertainty, more comfort, associated with
MH> religious belief, as well as less likelihood of drug abuse or other
MH> self-destructive behaviors.
LOL. Yes, the various forms of escapism are oftentimes quite
interchangeable, aren't they? ;)
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Patriot
|Sub: Sex as public service
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:33:56
EID:f61f 22376420
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 432b0fb9
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32e696ea
22 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Patriot to Ed Mills:
EM> Sex only forces a commitment on someone if they don't take
EM> the necessary measures to cause knock-uppage. The "til death
EM> do-us-part" monogamy myth does a hell of a lot more harm to
kids
EM> than premature sex does, IMHO.
P > Birth control is not always effective, and so even a couple doing it
P > one time, could force themselves into a commitment..
P > WHat's wrong with being true to another?
Nothing, if you have the personality which is predisposed
that way. The harm is in the laying on of the notion that
something's wrong with you, or you're somehow less than human
if you aren't a breeder. Reproduction is why nature makes us
crave intimacy; with damn near six billion served already,
it's pretty much of an anachronism, IMHO.
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: God came to stay
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:45:44
EID:3b2e 223765a0
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 46fd3959
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2e690ca1
22 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Mimi Milstein to Paul Davis:
MM> Paul Davis wrote in a message to All:
PD> If someone told you God was staying at his house, would you
PD> want to have a look?
MM> Yes - I am Curious (Blue/Yellow)
The cinematic reference dates you a tad.
Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice & edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Pathological Liars
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:26:22
EID:06e8 22376b40
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 76dd6c96
22 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Jan deBoer to Laurie Appleton:
Jd> Tell us again about your stroll around Mt. St. Helens with "former
Jd> President Harry Truman" A DECADE AFTER HE DIED, Laurie!
Jd> Did you steal the idea from 'Tales from the Crypt'?
Ditto me on that, Lawrence! I was offline for a month and missed it.
Being a native of the Pacific Northwest, and having walked a number
of the trails overlooking the caldera and pyroclastic flow area of
St. Helens, I'd be mighty curious to hear your impression of the
place.
Also, I was wondering if you knew what President Truman was doing
between 1972 (the time of his death) and 1980 (the time of his other
death).
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: ALL
|Sub: kablooey
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:22:32
EID:fde1 22376ac0
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 0c4aeffb
Hey, you geology guys:
While we're on this volcano thing, I seem to recall seeing a
model at the Mt. St. Helens interpretive center which depicted
the relative sizes of all the known major eruptions.
St. Helens was the smallest of the bunch, shown as a mushroom
cloud standing just a few inches high. Vesuvius was bigger, along
with several others, but there was this _one_ that TOWERED over all
the rest. It made St. Helens look like a medium-sized fart.
I vaguely remember it being Mt. Mazama, (the precursor to Crater
Lake) but I'm not sure... maybe it was Krakatoa? Anyone know fer
sure?
And - does anyone have this "Harry Truman" post saved? It sounds
just priceless.
gracias!
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:07:50
EID:7102 223770e0
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 5d49271b
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32e6c9e4
22 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Jonathan Fingas to Don Martin:
JF> And I guess 2/3rds of the world's population accepting a religion
JF> voluntarily, the fact that Jesus DID exist, and the various confirmed
JF> miracles that have happened around the globe have nothing to do with
JF> it?
I'd be happy to send postage for a few copies of these photographs
or tape recordings you speak of. Every so often, I hear about
"confirmed miracles," but, for some reason, I can never wrangle
an internet address or publication containing this incontrovertible
proof.
Just one little JPG? How long can it take to upload?
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:37:06
EID:257c 2236bca0
MSGID: 1:352/666 32E6F3DE
MB> At birth, there are 51 males for every 50 females. But, males
SS> Thirty years ago it was 53 boys to 50 girls (or, as the numbers were
SS> given to me, 106 to 100). That has changed? What could cause the
SS> change?
Ahhhhhh just the basic nonviability of the Y chromosome showing an increased
deterioration?????? Heck, maybe it's just a temporary adjustment??
* SPITFIRE v3.51 ** Le Maison De Metal * 360-493-0798 * Olympia, WA. **
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: ???
|Date: 22 Jan 97 23:50:52
EID:cbaf 2236be40
MSGID: 1:352/666 32E6F3DF
RV> What about the god of homosexual. Those who are not class
Uh.... don't know if it's appropriate as a god of the homosexual, but maybe
for the bisexual, ASGAYA-GIGAGEI a Cherokee bisexual thunder god. He/She
was known as both Red Man or Red Woman.
Can't find enough information to discover if this diety was one of the general
class of sacrificed kings or not.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 ** Le Maison De Metal * 360-493-0798 * Olympia, WA. **
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Look Who is Insulted?
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:41:00
EID:0e5f 22366d20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32e772ac
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, David Worrell cast Look Who is Insulted? at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> Yeesh. Well, we're getting ours - payback for all the nice,
SA> unnaturally warm weather we've been having. It's now blizzarding
SA> outside, and it's expected that we'll have almost 2 feet of snow by
SA> the time it's over. :(
DW> Remember how I said Canadians couldn't even do winter right?
DW> The high here Tuesday is supposed to be in the low 60's. Nyah! :)
Well, it's in the low 40s today; guess I can't complain after the
week or so's worth of -30.
Want a house guest or two until spring? :)
--Wolfie
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... "What's he going to do, kill the god?" - Taoist temple spokesman
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Christanic myths say Goat Worship okay!
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:42:00
EID:d5b8 22366d40
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32e772ad
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Marilyn Burge cast Christanic myths say Goat Worship
okay! at Sue Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> Actually, is says "or any likeness of any thing", which means
SA> pictures and paintings in general must be a no-no. While I'm
SA> aware that synagogues tend not to have anything but abstract
SA> ornamentation, it 1) calls into question the wisdom of the
SA> Catholic church having its icons and statues and 2) indicates
SA> that Christians shouldn't have paintings or photographs,
SA> either (at least of earthworms and fish, anyway.)
SA> I wonder when the really literal types will start wanting to
SA> ban all graphic representations, period? That might be good
SA> for amusement value.
MB> Actually, the ACLU defended a woman who refused to have her
MB> picture taken for a drivers license, using just that rationale.
MB> She won the case.
Whoo! You can get away with just about any silliness by using
religion as an excuse, can't you?
--Wolfie
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... "Fortune vomits on my eider down yet again" - Blackadder
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: RIC CARTER
|Sub: Artificial Life
|Date: 22 Jan 97 16:13:02
EID:7f63 223681a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32e772ae
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, RIC CARTER cast Artificial Life at ALL .. and all
hell broke loose.
RC> From Back to Godhead magazine, January/February 1991
RC> LIFE: REAL AND ARTIFICIAL
RC> by Sadaputa Dasa
RC> (c) 1991 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust
RC> Used by permission.
RC> In Santa Fe, New Mexico, a group of scientists, mainly from the Los
RC> Alamos National Laboratories, recently held a conference on
RC> "Artificial Life." The theme of the conference, which I attended, was
RC> that the essence of life lies not in biological substance but in
RC> patterned organization.
RC> If this idea is valid, the thinking goes, life forms should be able
to
RC> set themselves up through many different types of material stuff. In
RC> particular, life should be able to exist as a pattern of electronic
RC> activity in a computer.
RC> The conference organizers, casually dressed, long-haired men in their
RC> thirties and early forties, say that artificial, computer-based life
RC> forms are developing even now -- and may evolve to dominate the earth.
While I differ with the supernatural trappings of this article, I
doubt we'll ever have enough expertise to make a truly "thinking"
computer, never mind a "living" one, as well.
Besides, I think it's kind of dumb that people worry so much about
computer consciousness, when they can't even agree if other
biological life forms besides ourselves are conscious or not. If we
can't even recognise that, how on Earth can we make a conscious
machine?
Anyway, it's still a good sci-fi story base. Recently saw a movie
called "Screamers", about just this subject. It seems that two
factions - scientists and miners vs industrialists - were at war,
and the "Alliance" (the first mentioned group) developed the
"Autonomous Mobile Saw", aka Screamers. These little machines
travelled underground and mindlessly attacked anything they felt
moving (much like the sandworms in Dune.) You could go outside if
you had a "Tag", a wristband that masked the heatbeat (which was what
the Screamer would home in on.) They're called Screamers, BTW,
because they make a horrifying screaming noise when they attack.
The movie goes on from there, but you're best off seeing it for
yourselves, and I'll not spoil it for those wishing to rent it.
Lots of good intrigue and science-fictiony stuff, and stars Peter
Weller. And no, it's not bloody; all the gory stuff is implied,
Kat, so even you could stomach it. :) I'd classify it as a true
horror - the horror is in the concepts presented and not in the
graphic display of blood and guts.
--Wolfie
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... "Here is a pouch of money, which I'm not going to give to you."
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: al debunks apple sauc
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:17:24
EID:1469 22376220
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32e7bbc9
REPLY: 1:261/1137 37040630
Curtis Johnson said "al debunks apple sauc" to Al Schroeder,
adding:
AS> You were questioning my mentioning of Sophocles as the beginning of
AS> philosophy, correct? But if you think it must have a formal "?" then
AS> certainly I will withdraw the term. "Statement", then. Even "reply".
CJ> Incorrect, except in Al semantics.
CJ> Me: "You disagree with just about every history of Greek
CJ> philosophy written."
CJ> You: "Thanks for asking a question."
CJ> Now you say it's philosophy began with Sophocles. I'm
CJ> awaiting for you to justify this on the ground he wrote dialogue.
He DID! I can refer you to the dialogue betwixt Oedipus
and Tiresias in Oedipus Rex, by all accounts written by
Sophocles.
"Euripides?"
"No, they just tore by themselves."
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:25:18
EID:ea2f 22376320
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32e7bbca
REPLY: 1:261/1137 37040a5f
Curtis Johnson said "native americans" to Don Martin,
adding:
CJ> Have you any further knowledge of the proposal about a
CJ> decade ago that the huge blocks of stone of various civilizations
CJ> were actually a form of concrete--the chips being welded together
CJ> by oxalic acid (from such plants as rhubarb)?
None, apart from a visceral reaction that comes from the
presence of bullshit. While acids can _dissolve_ certain types
of stone, the carbonates like limestone or marble (and
kindly ol' Dr. Leipzig {or his Chinese confrere, Dr. Lei
Pzig} can be counted upon to correct me if I err here), the
process of welding involves both liquification and
solidification: getting the acid _out_ of solution while
leaving the material dissolved behind as a fused solid is a
pretty nifty trick. One that nobody I know of has succeeded
in rediscovering.
I am not aware of any patterning on monolithic stones
that would point to their being formed by conglomerating
chips; on the other hand, I have seen evidence of "marbling"
that suggests the stone was quarried and placed intact.
DM> Another interesting point: notice that elephants are
DM> used for carrying (both trunk and back), pushing, and
DM> dragging logs and such, but not for drawing. I have never
DM> seen an elephant cart depicted anywhere. Certainly it has
DM> the mass and the strength to draw, but somehow has
DM> apparently not been found suitable for the task.
CJ> An elephant would use its trunk to keep pulling at the
CJ> harness, I'd imagine. It would be even worse than a mule for
CJ> trying to get it to do such work if it made its mind up not to.
CJ> And unless the cart was absurdly high, it may run the danger of
CJ> having amorphous, odiferous masses randomly plopped onto its
CJ> front.
I have seen harnessed elephants, including one that
pulled a truck out of a mud hole; they weren't fiddling
with their harnesses.
But the other reminds me of a story told by my Father
(so you know it _must_ be true) about something he saw as a
boy in Chicago (c. 1920): a circus came to town and had its
parade. During the course of the parade, one of the
elephants relieved itself hugely on the street.
At the time, they still had "white wings", street
sweepers who cleaned up after the many horses still in use;
in Chicago, these were mostly Italian. One of them came upon
the pile after the parade was long gone and came to a dead
stop in the street. He circled the mound several times. He
went to a parallel street and called in a colleague for
consultation. They both circled the mound. When my Dad left,
the two were seated on the curb, murmuring wonderingly in
Italian over the size the horse must have been.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:48:34
EID:b2fe 22376600
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32e7bbcb
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32e6cc5a
Jonathan Fingas said "Hypocritical people" to Dan Ceppa,
adding:
DC> Let me state: You are a fundy fool and revel in the shit you
DC> strew.
JF> By the way, you know how you said changing peoples' words can get
JF> you kicked out of this forum? Well excessive (and very pointless)
JF> profanity is another.
The fuck you say! You have been here, what, 5 minutes,
and you are ready to pontificate on proper language to be
used here? I put it to you that you are in this instance
either ignorant or a lying sack of shit.
Elsewhere, you provide ample evidence of your ignorance,
but that in itself does not preclude the possibility of your
being a lying sack of shit into the bargain, particularly as
you have already been discovered doubling the census of
Christians to make your feeble attempts at argument appear
to have the support of the argumentum ad populum fallacy.
JF> Oh? If that was the case, then I wouldn't be doing things like
JF> tolerating the woman's right to choose abortion! I would be right
JF> outside an abortion clinic making a fool of myself.
You have no need to seek particular locations to make a
fool of yourself: you appear to be doing splendidly from the
privacy of your own home.
DC> When was the last time someone was murdered at a abortion clinic
DC> by an atheist?
JF> As I keep saying (and you keep ignoring), those are the fanatics
JF> that let their personal emotions override the actual teachings they
JF> claim to adhere to.
Religion spawns fanatics like stagnant water nurtures
mosquitos: what you are attempting to emply here is called
around here the "NOT real, true Christians" argument. To
those of us not in the church, ANY Christian is a potential
loon with a shotgun in his hand and the conviction that he
is doing god's will in his heart.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 23 Jan 97 15:49:22
EID:ed7f 22377e20
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32e7d25b
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32e61143
David Worrell said "native americans" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> dragging logs and such, but not for drawing. I have never
DM> seen an elephant cart depicted anywhere. Certainly it has
DM> the mass and the strength to draw, but somehow has
DM> apparently not been found suitable for the task.
DW> That might be an engineering concern, rather than something inherent
DW> in elephants. Making a suitable cart that will ride level for a horse
DW> (or similar sized animal) is one thing - making one for an elephant
DW> would be a bit more difficult, especially when considering the
DW> materials generally available.
But elephants have been in continuous use to the
present, so materials ought to present no problem. As for
the level business, curved shafts solve it for the low-slung
sulky beloved of harness racing fans. I suppose one really
ought to ask a mahout.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: God came to stay
|Date: 23 Jan 97 15:53:36
EID:0b98 22377ea0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32e7d25c
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32e65066
Dan Ceppa said "God came to stay" to Paul Davis,
adding:
PD> If someone told you God was staying at his house, would
PD> you want to have a look?
DC> No, I would prefer that he stayed in his house.
Actually, the above is a great specimen for the "dumbest
things said on the echo" file. If someone told me that God
was staying at his house, I would wonder what the fuck he
was doing wandering about and talking to ME instead of
staying home to be a good host.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: archives
|Date: 23 Jan 97 15:58:06
EID:9e40 22377f40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32e7d25d
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32e6a2bd
You said:
JB> I'm looking for archives of the stupidest, most illogical and/or the
JB> most repugnant posts to hit this echo. (In the last year only, please,
JB> I don't have THAT much space.)
And I just wrote to Ceppa:
PD> If someone told you God was staying at his house, would
PD> you want to have a look?
DC> No, I would prefer that he stayed in his house.
Actually, the above is a great specimen for the "dumbest
things said on the echo" file. If someone told me that God
was staying at his house, I would wonder what the fuck he
was doing wandering about and talking to ME instead of
staying home to be a good host.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Anthropic asininities.
|Date: 23 Jan 97 21:45:44
EID:1ceb 2237ada0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 32e80e51
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Andrew Masten <=-
ML> Andrew Masten, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said
ML> to Marty Leipzig
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> There are at least 23 constants needed for our existence. Some of
AM> those are needed for any life at all. The expansion rate of the
AM> universe must be fine-tuned to within one part to 10exp55.
ML> The argument from ignorance yet again. You cannot or will not
ML> accept the constants of the universe; and yet assign them to
ML> an omnibevelovent, yet immensely uncaring, God.
AM> Thats correct. And if someone flipped a coin heads 10000 times in a
AM> row, I would suspect a fix.
ML> The trouble is, you *begin* with a two-headed coin.
ML> And you call your belief "religion".
AM> No, you do.
ML> Indeed. Pray, what do you call a belief and homage to the
ML> supernatural? Aardvarkism?
I call it a covenant relationship with God. Religion is man striving through
ritual and formula to appease God(s).
ML> One can only imagine what you believe causes profound deafness.
AM> You have a cruel and hard heart Marty.
ML> Nope, my recent spate of EKG's provide evidence otherwise.
ML> Although I can, at times, be very cruel to the ignorant and
ML> quite hard of hearing myself (PSH of over 95%).
ML> At least I don't pray for the restoration of my hearing, I
ML> instead depend on audiologists and neurologists.
ML> So there.
I pray for my daughters restoration, but not in leiu of medical treatment.
She wears hearing aids. My wife and I sign. She's had over a quarter million
dollars of medical treatment for other maladys.
ML> Wrong again, Andy. Neutrinos are evidenced by experimentation.
ML> Perhaps you should read up on what you're trying, however
ML> vainly, to attack.
AM>
AM> By inference, not direct observation.
ML> No, Andy, you are simply WRONG. By direct observation of the
ML> effect of neutrinos with matter. Physical evidence of
ML> existence.
What is observed is electrons being dislodged by what is thought (or believed)
to be nuetrinos. No one has directly observed nuetrinos. Its hypothesis
is
by inference.
AM> Just as design can be
AM> deduced by inference.
ML> Wrong yet again. You assign something natural to the
ML> supernatural. That is not only wishful (hardly scientific)
Repeatedly saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. First, my conclusions
of
how we arrived here are not scientific. I never claimed they were. They
are philisophic, and theologic. However, I support my philsophic
conclusions on scientific facts as much as possible.
ML> thinking; it is not thinking at all, just mere belief. See Hume
ML> again as he destroys Paley's "A watch implies a watchmaker." We
ML> are familiar with the causal links from watchmaker to watch,
ML> but it is fallacious to extend it to the universe (we have no
ML> experience in building universes) and this causality of watch to
ML> watchmaker is flawed as a watch is neither an organic entity
ML> (i.e., discard "designed" animals) nor is it natural (i.e., it is
ML> man-made, therefore discard everything else in the universe not
ML> made by man). Leaves your argument as before, a rather empty
ML> subset of nothing.
Your right Marty, we have no experience building universes. We do know that
there was a time when there was no universe. Prior to that event, there
was no time or the laws of physics. Whatever forces instigated the event
of the universe was or is outside of the laws we are confined to.
Our experience with watchmakers is irrelevent. Imagine that no one had
seen a watch ever before and one suddenly appears in a lab. Do you think
they would have difficulty discerning if it was made by design or not?
After all, if biological things can evolve and become more complicated,
why can't non-living matter evolve? Do the laws of physics care whether
living or non-living matter becomes more complicated? The laws of physics
allow for the existence of computers, couldn't they have evolved just as
easily. Slowly over millions of years of course, just a few molecules of
silicon at a time.
AM> I don't think its impossible that the universe exploded out of a
AM> singularity at just the right velocity so galaxies and solar
AM> systems formed.
ML> Why not? That's exactly what happened.
AM> As I said, I don't think its impossible, its what caused this event
AM> that we differ.
ML> You have to assign the event to some unevidenced supernatural.
ML> Ockham's razor decapitates you.
You assign the event to some unevidenced natural cause. How (other than
in
your own mind) is that superior?
AM> Logical inference Marty. An event that caused the laws of physics to
AM> exist, must inherently be outside said laws.
AM>
AM> Stuff your belief system that says mechanistic forces alone
AM> suffice to turn random matter into complicated sentinent beings.
ML> A. There is nothing other than mechanistic forces in a natural
ML> universe. Provide evidence otherwise.
AM> There's no indication that such forces are capable of creating
AM> themselves.
ML> There's no evidence that they're not. Couple that with the fact
ML> that they do exist and my contention has one quite greater plus
ML> than yours; it requires exactly less than one God, supernatural
ML> occurrence or miracle.
Which would be a greater miracle. If the faces on Mount Rushmore were
created by design or by natural forces blowing against the rock? The
fact we know there by design removes our surprise and explains it well.
My contention that were here by design removes our surprise that were
here. Besides, miracles are relative. To an agency that created the
universe and physical laws its no miracle at all.
ML> You might want to get some iodine for that razor burn, Drew.
ML> B. Matter is not "random", but quite ordered by the laws of
ML> chemistry and physics.
AM> Just like it was planned.
ML> Evidence for this? There is none, as the way the laws of
ML> physics and chemistry operate in this universe is one of but
ML> myriad possibilities. If the conditions and parameters at
ML> time=0 were different, so would the universal outcome.
Thats right. And when you consider all the infinite permutations that would
exclude us being here you have to ask yourself just one question. Do you
feel lucky? Well do you punk?
ML> And each and every one of them would be as totally
ML> naturalistic, mechanistic and supernaturally lacking as the
ML> other.
AM> You claim your notions are
AM> scientifically based.
ML> Absolutely. And amply evidenced.
AM>
AM> Pure nonsense. As you have amply demonstrated in this post your
AM> rejection of a designer or God is based on philisophical reasonings.
ML> Wrong YET again. I reject it because it's a religious
ML> construct TOTALLY bereft of evidence.
ML> And that, old bean, is PURE science.
You admitted a few paragraphs ago that there is no evidence that the
universe or the laws of nature created themselves. Yet that doesn't
prevent your monolithic view point. Besides, proposing were here by
design is hardly tantamount to a religious experience.
AM> Which I have contended was true all along. You just use the
AM> credibility and integrity of science to further your THINK SYSTEMS.
ML> "THINK SYSTEMS"? A few gigatons more evidenced and trillions of
ML> lightyears more advanced and utile than your mindless "BELIEF
ML> SYSTEMS".
My reference to think systems was tongue and cheek Marty. Your defense of
your point of views are throughly grounded in philisophical tomes you
have espoused. Which is fine. At least we can jettison this idea that your
an atheist on some scientific basis.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Paul Halyung
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Eckankar - ???
|Date: 24 Jan 97 00:42:00
EID:8a8b 22380540
MSGID: 1:246/15@fidonet 0c009e70
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 7404c73a
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
TID: GE 1.11+
> It's a Scientology spin-off, spiced with a whopping dose
> of Eastern-sounding mystical shit.
It was pretty wierd, to say the least. This woman was talking about "Eck"
and chanting "Hu" ?? to get in touch with the "previous lives" that I have
been in. Also - that murder was a "good" thing, in that it "taught" you
more experiences and therefore closer to the "enlightened" stage.
Scary!
> I'm suprised they are still around. This is the first mention I've
> heard of them in a couple of years.
Anybody else out there heard of these people? The "religiion" ?
Paul F. Halyung
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 22:17:52
EID:c78a 2237b220
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32e829e0
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32e4cbae
DW> So?! Didn't he realize that he had to die?
DW> What's the point in telling your disciples to arm
DW> themselves with inadequate weapons, anyway? A couple of
DW> swords against a group of Temple guards and/or legionaires?
Well He didn't want to be unceremoniously slaughtered, did He? Most people
don't volunteer to go down fighting. I imagine the swords were more to
prevent the guards from being too hasty and rough too soon.
CJ>> Sorry, not a parable. Narrated as a straight event. Of
CJ>> course, if something narrated as a straight event is a parable,
CJ>> then other events narrated as a straight event can then be
CJ>> parable--including the Resurrection.
JF> Well I don't recall Him doing it because of a hatred of all things
JF> living - if anything, it was a metaphor.
DW> Like the Resurrection, you mean?
No, that's an event. The fig tree thing is a metaphor.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 22:20:44
EID:c78a 2237b280
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32e82a8c
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32e4cc02
DW> 20 Jan 97 20:22, Jonathan Fingas wrote to Glen Todd:
JF> You certainly don't have any proof that Jesus DIDN'T turn water into
JF> wine, feed 5000 with a lone basket of food, or walk on water.
DW> You don't have any proof that I do not have an IOU,
DW> signed by you, for $100,000. Present your proof, or pay
DW> up.
DW> The burden of proof lies upon the maker of the positive claim, moron.
Yes, but can you prove that you do have an IOU? Guess not, hmm. The Bible
is the only thing we have for proof, and I'm content to believe it.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 22:22:00
EID:c78a 2237b2c0
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32e82ad8
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32e4ccf0
DW> 20 Jan 97 20:35, Jonathan Fingas wrote to Dan Ceppa:
JF> Let me guess.... you're rich, aren't you? Only the people with no
JF> material want ignore God. Then the second they have a problem, they
JF> come crawling back.
DW> No, Dan's not "rich." I doubt any of us here (Brawley's
DW> protestations notwithstanding) qualify for the "rich"
DW> label.
DW> You, however, are pretty goddamned pathetic.
No, it's Mr. Ceppa who's the pathetic one. Half of what he says is either
A) Groundless and ignorant, and B) not something they'd play on TV.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Early Christians
|Date: 23 Jan 97 22:25:02
EID:bdb2 2237b320
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32e82b8e
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32e67919
JF> year talked about the Roman era, which included the
JF> beginnings of Christianity.
DM> Hate to break it to you, Scholar, but the proper study
DM> of Pharisees lies in Jewish, not Roman, history. Yes, I know
DM> you said "Roman era" which time frame includes the doings of
DM> these people, but only tangentially, as Rome had far bigger
DM> fish to fry than Israel.
I was referring to the beginnings of the Christian church, not the Pharisees.
I know that the latter's history was in Israel.
JF> Roman empire.
DM> How they managed to remain "underground (and STILL
DM> peaceful)" as this, by then Christian, empire fell _was_,
DM> one must admit, a pretty good trick.
It WAS underground - however, not in the traditional sense. Early Christians
often congregated at some follower's house and had a little (very much little)
church session.
The main reason why Rome became Christian was because of emperor Constantine.
He converted to Christianity and so basically erased the previous history.
Of course, by the time he came in there was little he could do to fix up
Rome before the northern barbarians came.
JF> The only "dark period" was just that, the Dark and
JF> Middle Ages, when people let intolerance and
JF> re-interpretation (like supposedly being able to buy
JF> your way into heaven with indulgences) overtake the
JF> actual teachings.
DM> You know remarkably little about the medieval period,
DM> too. Next time you need to find a course in which history is
DM> _studied_ and not just "talked about".
It's true, if you bought a Bible at the time (the money of which went to
building churches and such), you would recieve a piece of paper inside which
hereby forgave you all your sins.
Even today, I hear it's true - buy a Bible from the Catholic church (not
some local church, THE church) and you're supposed to get something a lot
like an indulgence. Of course, this time it's in English, not Latin.
JF> the Christian faith.
DM> If you were to study (and not just talk about) Christian
DM> theologians, I think you might find some pretty general
DM> agreement that the church was the creation of Paul/Saul. He
DM> may have fallen off his horse onto his head, but he was a
DM> helluva little organizer.
The church (as in, the organization) was admittedly created by Paul. However,
it wouldn't have existed in any form if it weren't for Jesus.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 22:33:48
EID:8a91 2237b420
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32e82d9c
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32e6791a
DM> When fundies have nothing substantive to say here, they
DM> inevitably attempt to psychoanalyze the people they address.
I'm not a fundamentalist! If I were, I would outright condemn things like
abortion and homosexuality. While I still don't like them, I try to understand
the particular person's point of view.
I admit my attack was a little too personal. However, it does seem like
Mr. Ceppa holds a grudge of some sort, since he keeps (incorrectly) branding
Christianity as a death cult and ignoring/twisting whatever I say.
DM> Have you any extra-Biblical (corroborating) evidence
DM> that this Satan person exists? He must do that before being
DM> able to either lie or tell the truth.
Ever heard of Satanic cults? While it's probable that these were created
just because Satan is mentioned in the Bible, the fact that these people
sacrifice people's animals (even small children), and do such evil things
as Black Mass, you know SOMETHING'S up with them.
DM> Ah yes, Judas. And just what _was_ the cause of the
DM> death that Satan lured him to? Or did Satan lure him into
DM> both of his deaths?
DM> Hanging or Bowel Busting? Which for You?
He betrayed the Son of God - fairly easy to pick up on in the Bible.
I pick bowel busting. :-) That's the death of Judas I remember.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: brett johnson; jealou
|Date: 23 Jan 97 18:51:18
EID:01d7 22379660
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 d70221a6
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32e6a55d
On (22 Jan 97) Dan Ceppa babbled to Marilyn Burge...
-> On 21 Jan 97 16:43:16, Marilyn Burge got back to Curtis Johnson
MB> It is no accident that the names Ramoses and Moses are as close as
MB> they are. Many OT scholars believe that Ramoses II WAS Moses, and
MB> _Mythology's Last Gods_ is a pretty good read. It was originally a
DC> So, Marilyn, just how much money do you make each year off of
DC> shilling books for publishers/authors?
DC> Thanks for adding to my LIBRARY file!
Don't blame ME if you don't have any sales resistance!
... 2nd Rule of Creationism: Never acknowledge your DEMONSTRATED errors.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Patriot
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:45:20
EID:46af 22370da0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 32e70900
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32e5988b
REALNAME: Ken Young
P> And what is so difficult about not making a point of telling
P> everyone what your sexual preference is?
Jd> It's similar to the difficulty you have in announcing 'I'm a White
Jd> Supremicist" on your arrival here!
ANd what makes you think I am a white supremicist? Because I'm a Christian?
Actually, that would be going against the Christian faith.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Patriot
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Idiot postings
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:47:14
EID:50c3 22370de0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 32e70972
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32e57004
REALNAME: Ken Young
DW> 20 Jan 97 20:19, Patriot wrote to Glen Todd:
P> Now, on to "Xtian." WHy use this? ISn't this just trying to take
P> Christ out of Christianity?
DW> Do *any* of you Christers know this history of your
DW> religion? The abbreviation "xtian" was coined *by* a
DW> Christian. Here's a hint for you: how did the Greeks
DW> spell Christ?
DW> Besides. Christianity as it is practised today has very
DW> little of Christ in it, anyway. If you all were honest,
DW> you'd change your name to Paulians.
FIrst, not all Christians think like Paul.. That is why you may see Christians
disagreeing with each other.. We are very diverse, and may have strong differences
of opinion..
Anyway, even if that abbreviation was coined by a Christian, does everyone
have the same meaning for the abbreviation, as it originally was meant?
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Patriot
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: Most Read Book
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:51:12
EID:38bb 22370e60
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 32e70a60
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ ae52a0f6
REALNAME: Ken Young
P> Actually, according to the Supreme Court (US vs. Trinity
P> Church) America is indeed a Christian nation.
SS> The footnote to which you refer is _not_ a part of the decision and
SS> is the lonely opinion of ONE long-dead and forgotten SC Justice.
SS> When it's used as an argument in a tract they "forget" to mention
SS> that.
That is what I have heard.. Funny that I have read the case, and know differently..
Actually, I never even saw a tract mention it..
How do you know it wasn't part of the decision? Am I to assume that you
read the decision?
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Patriot
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 01:55:04
EID:4a91 22370ee0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 32e70b48
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 8973e34d
REALNAME: Ken Young
MB> On (19 Jan 97) Brian Shreve babbled to Marilyn Burge...
BS> You spoke of choice in abortion issues, you're being
BS> pro-choice. Adding to that, you say you are against abortion.
BS> Oxymoron? Possibly, in the black and white sense you spoke of
BS> of others. But wouldn't you have to admit it does create
BS> confusion? One is either for or against, but if we listen to
BS> you, (and I as well) we have a third addition...that being
BS> for _choice_. Choice of what, it's wrong, or it's right? Nice
BS> way to cloud / confuse the issues.
MB> It's not an oxymoron at all. I think that in a truly free society,
MB> people have the right to be wrong. Without the freedom to be
MB> wrong, there is no freedom at all.
I would agree, generally, but when life is concerned, I don't think we can
afford to be wrong.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 23 Jan 97 18:04:04
EID:de0b 22379080
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 32e7ee64
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32e65342
JH> I wouldn't trust 'God' to co-pilot an escalator.
P> Neither would I, because we would then be the pilot.. Now, if we
P> just handed everything to Him, as we are supposed to, then
P> everything would work perfectly.
Jd> Well why don't you? Next time, just put the keys in the ignition, and
Jd> slide over to the passenger side, and leave the driving to god.
Jd> Let us know how far you get, idiot.
The body must be ours, but perhaps if we let God guide our thinking a little
more, this would be a better place.
Ken
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Direct Dialling
|Date: 23 Jan 97 20:26:44
EID:51f0 2237a340
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 32e80fd4
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32e389f0
DC> And, just how often do you talk directly to god and god talks
DC> directly to you?
DC>
LW> But I know those who do.
DC> And, those people are: ? ? ? ? ?
Jd> Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, Jim Jones, Pat Robertson,
Jd> Bishop Marcinkus, Kathryn Kulman, W.V. Grant, George Bush, and most
Jd> of the inmates in mental institutions....
DC> I'm willing to bet that Lee says he didn't want your help!
DC> BTW, you forgot Koresh, who was the second coming of god. ;)
Ah, this again.. Koresh never said he was God.. The media asked him if
the rumor was true that he made an elderly grandmother pregnant, and he
sarcastically responded that if he could do that, he must be God..
A true Christian should be talking with God every day.. Trouble is, true
Christians appear to me a minority more and more..
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:56:34
EID:1313 22376700
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e76003
-> On 19 Jan 97 09:15:20, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Far better than a god that doesn't do much other than allow
DC> rapists to rape and obtain forgiveness, isn't it.
AS> I do not begrudge anyone forgiveness, as long as the asking is
AS> genuine.
That still does not excuse the initial atrocity, Al. For all you
know, the rapists is only in fear of everlasting torture, or
even just a prison sentence now. An omnipotent god could have
prevented the despicable act in the first place. Yet, he
lets a rapist off the hook with a wave of his hand and a little
girl suffers forever from his brutality.
... "Any damned fool can believe." Preston Simpson
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:59:58
EID:1c3c 22376760
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e760ce
-> On 19 Jan 97 18:54:06, ROBERT CURRY got back to DAN CEPPA
DC> I don't know about commonly used, as I'm basing that on when I
DC> learned calculus in 1968.
RC> As I was occupied at the time with learning to walk, I can't very well
RC> speak from experience about the period you mention. :-)
Ruin my idea of you. I thought you were a child prodigy...
DC> ... "Zero is a blasphemous tool of your cunning!" 'John Brawley'
RC> LOL!
Figured you'd like that. It worked so well in it's other incarnation
with Jesse Jones that it was time to make a minor modification.
... "Better than a poke in the eye with sharp stick!" J. Lackey
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ...
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:06:44
EID:36a5 223768c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e76265
-> On 19 Jan 97 09:28:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> And, according to your mythos, isn't he supposedly alive again?
AS> Yes indeed.
DC> If so, there was no sacrifice, was there.
AS> I think there is. The fact that one's arm can be reattached, after
AS> losing it in a tractor on a farm, doesn't mean it wasn't agony, for
Al, that doesn't mean that the farmer lost his arm. Not that many
years ago it could not have been re-attached. Back then, he
really did use his arm.
AS> instance. Similarly, the fact that Jesus came alive again does not
AS> mean He did not endure agony dying...especially since it wasn't as if
Al, just how many times do I have to point out that very short
period of time compared to your eternal god's lifetime? It
doesn't even rate as a nono-second of pain in that light.
AS> If we look at it that way, there would be no shame in killing a
AS> Christian, no murder, since they would live again someday...
AS> Uh oh.
Uh, oh, is right. Seems like a lot of xtians are doing that
already when they don't like something. Women's clinics
come very quickly to mind.
AS> Indians poking out of the top of the hills surrounding him at every
AS> side...) Why do I get the feeling that was the WRONG thing to say in
AS> this echo?
In this case, it's the Indians that have the repeating rifles and
all you have for defence is an old book.
... Meaningless gods cannot grant what they do not have.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ...
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:12:32
EID:36a5 22376980
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e763c0
-> On 19 Jan 97 09:34:53, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Your godling was asking for his life. He wasn't asking for
DC> a condo in Maui. Yet, it was denied, much the same as the
DC> little girl that was raped was denied safety from her rapist.
AS> Yes. Much the same as if I pray, "Don't let me ever die, God," I
AS> don't expect it to happen. I do believe in an afterlife, but that's
Of course you don't. You are smart enough not to pray for things
that are impossible. You probably don't even pray for things
that have a high probably of never happening. What you porbably
pray for are things along the line of, "I pray the sun comes up
tomorrow morning." Such prayers reinforce you belief as they
are far too likely to happen.
AS> Well, is Jesus not making a sacrifice because He is to be
AS> resurrected,
Absolutely, Al. Such a thing is in no way, shape or form an
actual sacrifice.
AS> or is God guilty of neglect because He lets the
AS> Crucifixion take place?
Is more than guilty of neglect for not answering the prayers
of the little girl that was raped.
... "I'm god & can do anything, but not anything worthwhile for humanity."
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ...
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:29:44
EID:beae 22376ba0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e767c9
-> On 18 Jan 97 08:32:46, Lynda Bustilloz got back to Dan Ceppa
LB> something: This battle tomorrow is going to be a serious affair. There
LB> will be no place for children. Therefore I must ask You not to send
LB> Your Son to help us. Come Yourself."
LB> The prayer of Koq, leader of the Griquas tribe, before a battle with
LB> the Afrikaners in 1876.
OOC, who won that battle? Or was it another no-show by
the big guy?
... "Sometimes I wonder which side god's on." Var. warriors re: enemies
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Bootstrapping up, up and away
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:38:40
EID:26f5 22376cc0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e769e0
-> On 20 Jan 97 14:04:46, Al Schroeder got back to Jan deBoer
AS> For instance, Werner Von Braun. He certainly can be criticized for
AS> his part in the German U-2 program in WWII, but he was the director
of
AS> the Marshall Space Flight Center and an administrator for planning at
Nice of you to use Von Braun as a reference for god. After all,
he was until his dying die a Nazi. He just didn't work for
them, he was one.
... "El O'him: God is an Irish Mexican." J.j. Hitt
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: Christ-Like
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:45:26
EID:eccb 22376da0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e76b77
-> On 16 Jan 97 15:51:19, Paul Davis got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Of course we are. We shape the world around us into what we want it
to
DC> be.
PD> Or do we shape it into what we think it is? (there is a subtle
PD> difference)
You can think that the world is made of green cheese, but that
doen't make it so.
DC> oveshadowed by the same book's thinly disguised threats.
PD> OK. I'll give you a chance to exercise your free-will.
PD> Here is a fire. You have a choice to put your hand in and hold it
PD> there for five minutes, or not. What is your choice?
The free will of the bible comes into play in a somewhat different
scenario: I hold a gun and tell you to give me all of your money
or put you hand in the fire. If you refuse, I shoot you and throw
you in whole for not obeying me.
... "Oh, bother", said Pooh as he set his laser designators on the church.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Christian's secret weakn
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:47:36
EID:344b 22376de0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e76bf9
-> On 19 Jan 97 13:16:12, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa
RS> * On 15-12-96 at 09:26, DAN CEPPA wrote to ROD SWIFT,
..... ^^
I see you are getting a bit closer to being current. You are
only about a month behind.
... 50th Rule of Creationism: Tell 'em they're evil and going to Hell!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Creationists on trial!
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:49:08
EID:3c11 22376e20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e76c55
-> On 17 Jan 97 06:49:00, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> RS> A BIZARRE courtroom battle over whether God or evolution
DC> RS> was responsible for human beings will be played out in
RS> I'll try and find a verdict in the case if it is online. It
RS> happened in New South Wales, so there may be an online copy of it
Any news on the trial yet?
Thanks for checking.
... Messiah looking for jailbait = Jesus of Swaggart.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:53:42
EID:c44a 22376ea0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e76d66
-> On 16 Jan 97 15:45:05, Paul Davis got back to Dan Ceppa
PD> I think for me, you have the wrong end of the stick. You are stating
PD> that there is only one form of existence: physical. Logically speaking
Got any evidence of any other kind? If so, present it.
PD> can't answer that can you? No-one can and the point is this: logic
PD> dictates cause and effect for everything. What caused the universe?
If
A vacuum fluction resulting in the BB.
PD> we cannot find the answer in physical space then where is the answer?
Provide evidence of non-physical space.
PD> be another form of existence that is non-physical yet not non-existent
PD> to explain where this (physical) universe came from.
Gravity and hydrogen atoms have a way of forming large
fusion reactors that produce heavier atoms. Add a few
billion years and you have the makings of a lot of things
not possible in the opening event.
... "Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief" - M. Burge
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:58:26
EID:c44a 22376f40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e76e82
-> On 16 Jan 97 15:48:50, Paul Davis got back to Dan Ceppa
PD> Are you a man dreaming you are a butterfly, or are you a butterfly
PD> dreaming you are a man?
Here, let me hit you with this fly swatter and see if you die. If
you do, I'll just pin you on the board with the other butterflies.
PD> Even if you think you have evidence it could be argued that the
PD> evidence was produced solely by yourself to satisfy your own ideas of
That's why evidence is subject to independent varification.
PD> Can you show me some evidence that proves you are not dreaming all of
PD> this and will some day wake up somewhere entirely different?
May I interest you in performing the Hector Experiment?
... Lobotopantheism: Using an empty cranium as the basis of gods.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: HELL-o, a MUST READ post
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:09:48
EID:2996 22377120
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e7712d
-> On 19 Jan 97 19:41:04, Rod Swift got back to All
RS> should pick Kingsville TX as our Holysmoke Convention site, and
RS> have tee-shirts saying "HELL-o" for the con! :)
And on the back it should read: "HEAV-HO"
RS> ---- KINGSVILLE, Texas (Reuter) - Heaven-o, how are you?
Does that mean that my aunt is now Aunt Heavenen?
I'll think I'll have some Jheaven-o for desert tonight and sit
back and listen the the symphony. I always liked the cheaveno's
section.
... "What the Hell, he's only my son... I'll damn him too!" Mcabee
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: Religious comments
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:26:36
EID:ecf2 22377340
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e7751c
-> On 18 Jan 97 13:48:54, Paul Davis got back to Rod Swift
PD> Nope. It appears to disappear from view after about ten or so miles
PD> and no matter how far I walk I can never get to the edge, and woah!
The world was most definitely known to be round from the time men first
sailed on the oceans. It was probably suspected of being so far
earlier than that, especially again by peoples that lived near
the oceans.
... Fundamentalism: The functionally illiterate trying to sound wise.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:41:32
EID:5f9d 22377520
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e7789c
-> On 21 Jan 97 21:24:17, David Worrell got back to Lynda Bustilloz
DW> While fire is the primary requirement for technology, the wheel
DW> probably comes in a very close second. Without it, you're not going
to
DW> get very far. (damn, did I just make a pun?)
You spoked without thinking, I'm sure.
Don't worry, I don't get tyred of them. We can always go
round and round about it. Just axle anyone.
I think it's time for that rim shot.
... 666 ??? I thought this was the 7-11 !!??
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Patriot
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:44:24
EID:48af 22377580
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e77948
-> On 20 Jan 97 20:31:54, Patriot got back to David Worrell
DW> Pascal's Wager *again*?
DW> possible gods? Don't you think they're gonna be a
DW> little pissed that you spent your life worshipping Jehovah?
Pa> You tell me.. DO many of them have much against worshipping other
Pa> gods?
Yours in particular, Kenny. They don't like gods that are
spoiled little brats.
... "I believe in Jeshua bar Casper-the-Holy-Spook!" David Rice
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 23 Jan 97 20:18:16
EID:32d2 2237a240
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e7c789
-> On 21 Jan 97 09:31:43, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> more sense to me to actually add all of the zeros. Not correct,
DC> mathematically, but it does take care of those "minute" holes
JB> Uh... not very clear.... could you amplify?
Under a non-linear cure, there would be small areas that the
infinitesimal doesn't quite cover. My view of "adding zeros"
makes it clearer to me. However, it is as I state above.
DC> center, we can and do use mathematics to find exactly that point.
JB> Which, as zero, is not part of the block itself....
DC> It is, and it isn't. Yet, it's still "there".
JB> Seems you're agreeing the issue isn't as simple or plain as some here
JB> have claimed?
No, most of the time it is quite clear. Besides, numbers themselves
have that problem as well when used with real items. Math takes
those problems and deals with them in a manner that you don't
have to worry about those small variation, such as I do when I
"add zeros".
DC> 0+0 is zero, but it helps me understand how it does work and
DC> get the answer.
JB> "Works" magnificently, but counterintuitively, like "wave-particle
JB> duality?" A mystery, but one that we use simply because it seems to
Not to me, as I do understand how it does work. I guess I don't
like just approaching zero but getting there.
... A belief in god requires rejecting thinking.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 23 Jan 97 20:23:16
EID:32d2 2237a2e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e7c8b4
-> On 21 Jan 97 09:31:43, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> would have "zero points." A point is a _one_, not a zero. The
DC> No, John. It's only a point, nothing more.
JB> Please clarify "an overlap at each number." That looks like a
JB> ludicrous idea....
DC> This character " ' " represents the zero point. However, it
DC> has a width, else you would not see it. Thus, it overlaps on
DC> both sides as to what it really is, nothing.
JB> That's what bothers me. It _doesn't_ overlap in reality, or in
JB> conceptuality, it "overlaps" only because the _symbol_ used to
JB> represent it has width in our dimensional reality. Granting a width
JB> to "zero," the thing-in-itself, strikes me as ludicrous:
I don't grant a width to a point. In fact, that point does not
have to be the zero point. It can be any point along the
number line. The place where number 1 falls takes exactly the
same amount of room as where the numbers 1,387 and 0 fall.
n.g., they all reside on a non-width point on that lin.
... "I used to do that, but I'm feeling MUCH better, now!": John Astin
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 23 Jan 97 20:26:28
EID:32d2 2237a340
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e7c974
-> On 21 Jan 97 09:31:43, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> the middle (the "zero point"). Zero _cannot_ have a width. If you
JB> grant it one, then of course it _looks_ like an infinitesimal, but
it
JB> still isn't, since part of it is on one side (positive) and part is
on
JB> the other (negative), hence it is divided, and if it's dividable, it
JB> obviously is neither an infinitesimal, nor "zero" --you can't
JB> subdivide zero and claim to be making sense.... (*grin*)
I sure can, John. Hang on to this one and I'll answer it later.
However, if you got my other posts on the various additions
I sent early, I'd prefer to use that one. After all, it
not only would be more fun for me, it will help illustrate
the above.
... "I've plummeted to my death and I can't get up!" Leipzig, re: Hector
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 23 Jan 97 20:33:28
EID:32d2 2237a420
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32e7cb18
-> On 21 Jan 97 09:46:32, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Is 1+1= 2? Is 1+0= 1?
JB> Does +1 change what it was added to? (yes) Does 0 change what it was
DC> Try again, John. Both of the above examples total 2. See if you
DC> But you do, John. In each case there were 2 operands. As such,
DC> a bit more fun, I'll change those numbers a bit and show you,
DC> on the average, they, including a zero, are average and equal.
JB> What a slippery, sneaky, evil thing for you to do....
JB> (*grin*)
Yes, isn't. And, to think that I'm just getting started.
JB> Like Samuel Johnson, I kick the '=2,' and I kick the '=1,' suffering
JB> only one bruise in the second case, and hollering "I refute you THUS!"
Go right ahead. It still does not change the fact that there
are still 2 operations going on, though they are not equations
any more.
JB> "Zero" is a "number," as defined by mathematicians (whom I am
"One" is also a "number" as defined by mathematicians. So are
all of the other numbers.
JB> it is the _absence_ of number, and worse, if delved even deeper, it
is
JB> even the absence _of_the_absence_ of number without that concept
JB> defaulting back to number.
JB> (*grin*) Chew on _that_ nonexistence awhile....
No need too, John. That zero is there, just as any number is
there.
... Computer possessed! Re-boot with EXOR.SYS-- from Demonic Software
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: execute her ?
|Date: 21 Jan 97 01:28:46
EID:af43 22350b80
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32e86498
-=> Quoting Gwenny the Pooh to Sue Alexander <=-
GtP>> Thanks, Sue. I wondered if anyone had it still. I really need
GtP>> to learn to save anything Bro Jim says to a file. He will deny
GtP>> it later.
SA> I've been waiting for the chance to catch him on something like
SA> this. I've warned him in the past that there are those who DO archive,
SA> and though my archives are a bit hard to wade through, I'll do it for
SA> him.
GtP> And do you think he will address this post. NO! He just keeps
GtP> saying he claimed I hadn't been married before because Wild said
GtP> he didn't know any divorced pagans.
Actually, he is refusing to say that he told you he didn't know
about you being previously married, and is trying to confuse the issue
by saying that the posts do not prove that he did not know. I don't
give a damn if he knew or not (in fact, looking back at the thread he
mentioned that he did know and that he was trying to make you explain
yourself-in a post to JJ, I believe). He directly answered TO YOU that
he did not know, and that is what you claimed he said. Therefore, he is
being a liar or an asshole...or both.
Sue
... Bill Cat of Borg - "You will be ass----imilated!"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: the pitter-patter of
|Date: 22 Jan 97 00:52:26
EID:c98a 22360680
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32e86499
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> Actually, I found it amusing. IT WAS DEAD! She was BAPTIZING A
MB> HUNK OF DEAD MEAT! That kind of superstition leaves me baffled,
MB> and wondering how she had enough mental horsepower to drive to
MB> work that morning, let alone enough to get through nursing
MB> school.
MG> I'll catch shit for this, I know, but I seldom have found a
MG> profession so totally devoid of original thought as nursing.
MG> Nursing requires knowledge and a prescried set of rules...but
MG> original thought is right out. Those nurses who have an ounce of
MG> intelligence move on to do other things including being managers
MG> and the like. If you only knew some of the stupid questions I've
MG> had over the years from these people.
I have not found this to be the case universally. I deal with some
nurses who are very intelligent and can use it, but they have been
mostly on the intesive care units and in the urgent care clinic (the
hospital I work in does not have an ER). I think the problem is that
people who cannot think originally are still able to be nurses...they
just turn out to be the ones other people hate to deal with.
I have had my share of stupid questions also, with occasional ones
that scare the shit out of me.
Sue
... Support bacteria--it's the only culture some people have!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 24 Jan 97 00:45:48
EID:d4e6 223805a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32e8649a
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to J.j. Hitt <=-
JH> TE> You know it is assholes, like you, that cause so many people to
JH> TE> starve theirselves to death and commit suicide.
JH> Feeling any guilt yet?
KW> Well, he should, to have all those women (no, she said people,
KW> didn't she...), uh people starving themselves to death because he
KW> won't bed them. Gee, it looks like David's about to become the
KW> Holysmoke God of Sex, or something along those lines. Any
KW> volunteers to go on a hunger strike to qualify for David's Bed?
No fucking way. ;) Besides, I don't know if I could even get to
85lb if I starved to death...
Sometimes I wish we could get him to eat chocolate pie.
Sue
... Well past SNAFU, hip-deep in TARFU and hell-bent for FUBAR!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: OUR DAILY BREAD
|Date: 24 Jan 97 00:52:30
EID:c890 22380680
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32e86497
-=> Quoting Becke Boyer to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> It appears that he only responds to messages based on spammings
DC> that are more than 3 months old and the responder lives in
DC> Australia.
DC> In any event, Rod Swift has earned the honor(?) of being the second
DC> person Mooth has sent a direct message to.
BB> Who was the first?
If I remember correctly, I was. However, I didn't save copies of
the momentous occassion, so there may be other claimants to the
title...;)
Sue
... Vampires do it at night
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: ASK AND YE SHAN'T REC
|Date: 24 Jan 97 01:19:04
EID:f6cf 22380a60
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 32e8649b
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> So which version is the "true" version, Jim?
JS> Why the KJV/NIV parallel, of course. :)
SA> So why did it take so long (and so many failed attempts) to get
SA> to the "true" version? Hmmmmmmm....
JS> God does His thing in His time. (Rom 5:6 NIV) You see, at just the
JS> right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
So He mislead all those people while waiting for "His time". How
nice of Him.
JS> That is where the prayer part comes in.
SA> If prayer guides you in your choice, why do Christians insist on
SA> pressing their prayer-guided choice on others (whose prayer-given
SA> choice may be different)?
JS> To give another information is not necessarily 'pressing' their
JS> choice on others.
However, getting in one's face (even metaphorically by use of a
computer interface) and threatening someone with eternal torture if a
certain belief system is not entered into, or creating legislation to
rule what I can and cannot do based on a single morality structure IS
pressing their choice. I grant that you usually do not use the threat
tactic here, but others do.
Sue
... What part of "Thou shalt not kill" did the Crusaders not understand?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: RIC CARTER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: archives
|Date: 23 Jan 97 21:23:14
EID:c6e8 2237aae0
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 312bf649
JB> I'm looking for archives of the stupidest, most illogical and/or the
JB> most repugnant posts to hit this echo. (In the last year only, please,
masochist
... 2000 years ago Egyptians worshipped cats. The cats never forgot it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0GY
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Answer the Question!
|Date: 22 Jan 97 07:06:40
EID:0e8d 223638c0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32e78a4b
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88d524c7
Laurie:
On 21 Jan 97 09:09:34, Laurie Appleton penned the following to Rod Swift
re: Answer the Question!
LA> AS> and is it [Creation Ex Nihilo] a reputable scientific journal?
LA> In Creation Science circles it is one of the best!
RS> Are you admitting that creationism is not part of the
RS> sciences now?
LA> Just the opposite. It is more likely the ONLY scientific
LA> journal, since the so-called "reputable scientific Journals"
It's the "Journal of Faulty Science", Laurie. That's been shown
before.
LA> are really no more than "evolutionary propaganda rags" and
LA> the myth spinners of evolutionary fairy tales!
How would you know? You don't read them and can't even pay a
close friend to read them to you!
LA> Even as long as forty years ago a well known evolutionary
LA> author wrote that;
40 years ago, eh? Still stuck in the past?
LA> "With the failure of these many efforts science
LA> was left in the somewhat embarrassing position of
LA> having to postulate theories of living origins which it
LA> could not demonstrate."
Allele frequency you blooming idiot. It's been demonstrated.
LA> and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of
LA> having to create a mythology of its own: namely, the assumption
LA> that what, after long effort, could not be proven to take place
Been there, Laurie. Your pseudo-science is faulty again, and
your use of:
LA> (Loren Eiseley, Ph.D. (anthropology), "The secret of life"
LA> in The Immense Journey, Random House, New York, 1957,
shows that indeed, your level of scholarship is slightly below
that of a crustacean.
LA> Nothing has happened since then to make the situation any
LA> different, except that the continuing discovery of more facts
Nothing? You forgot DNA sequencing and allele frequency again,
Laurie. Want to quote that Eiseley junk again in an attempt to
refute it?
LA> and evidence have CONFIRMED that assessment, and pointed
LA> more and more towards the consistent claims of Creation
LA> Science.
They're pointing at it and snickering because they can't
believe anyone can be so stupid as to believe in something as
intellectually bankrupt as "creation science".
John
... "Fundamentalism is merely charlatanism lowered an order of magnitude."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: Satan
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Becke, slave to satan
|Date: 22 Jan 97 15:07:44
EID:16cf 223678e0
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 5dfff850
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32e3f96d
Wasn't it 20 Jan 97 when "Lynda Bustilloz" wrote to "George Mooth"?
So, Lynda... you said...
GM> BTW, what is the answer to my question. Whne will you choose
GM> to be free and not a slave to satan?
LB> Evidence for the existance of satan?
We are loath to come to the assistance of somebody as misguided as
Mr. Mooth is, but the fact remains: We are here!
From the quill of Satan...
... I used to be Snow White, then I drifted...
--- PPoint 2.02
* Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
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|From: Satan
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Our Daily Slave
|Date: 22 Jan 97 15:12:20
EID:ff51 22367980
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 40f1961c
Wasn't it 21 Jan 97 when "Alan Hess" wrote to "George Mooth"?
So, Alan... you said...
GM> Another lie. Satan is full of lies.
AH> Satan doesn't exist.
Then, pray tell, how do you come to receive a reply from Satan?
AH> Thus, it is as full of lies as the Tooth Fairy, the Easter
AH> Bunny, and Santa Claus.
Ah, Our poker buddies...
From the quill of Satan...
... I used to be Snow White, then I drifted...
--- PPoint 2.02
* Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Water and Flood (b).
|Date: 22 Jan 97 16:05:10
EID:a683 223680a0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32e78a4d
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0d86f
Hi Laurie...
On 16 Jan 97 06:48:54, Laurie Appleton penned the following to John Musselwhite
re: Water and Flood (b).
LA> Clearly you need MORE of what Velikovsky said, before you
Not really, Laurie. Velikovsky is as useless as source as Henry
Morris as has been illustrated so many times. If you haven't
read the Velikovsky FAQ posted recently I urge you to read it.
LA> (Earth in Upheaval, Immanuel Velikovsky, p. 248)
A kindergarden child could come up with better science than
that, Laurie.
John
... Creationists fear evolution. They fear that it's right.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Water and Flood (b)1.
|Date: 22 Jan 97 16:10:32
EID:8d6f 22368140
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32e78a4e
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0d8d1
Hi Laurie...
On 16 Jan 97 06:49:40, Laurie Appleton penned the following to John Musselwhite
re: Water and Flood (b)1.
JM> The age of the Falls has been determined through more
JM> accurate means than they had in 1947 and placed at about 10
JM> thousand years, not four thousand as Velikovsky indicates.
LA> Then do tell me what that method was John, or don't you
Why should I bother? You'll just gainsay it as always.
LA> know. It is interesting to learn that Charles Lyell's
LA> original 35,000 years is now debunked!
Lyell was born 200 years ago this year, Laurie. It's fitting
you should select the bicentennial of his birth to exhibit your
poor scholarship once again.
LA> So just WHAT did you see there John that satisfied you
LA> beyond reasonable doubt that their "age" was 10,000 years
LA> rather than 4,000 years?
The same things anyone with half a brain can see if they read
the available literature written in at least the recent past.
LA> Are you over looking the fact that evolutionists are
LA> nearly ALWAYS wrong about just about everything anyway and
Nope... I'm taking into account the fact that evolutionists
very often have been, and will continue to be, nearly always
RIGHT about everything, Laurie. That's why many diabetics are
kept alive by genetically-engineered insulin and we can
research fossils using CAT scans and MRI instead of
sketch-pads, just as a few examples.
LA> after all Velikovsky was a confirmed evolutionist himself,
Velikovsky was a confirmed poor scholar, Laurie. He wrote
sensationalist and badly researched trash that people like you
suck up like like a crack whore at her pipe.
The evidence is freely available. I urge you to look at it
before you make even more of a fool out of yourself, if indeed
that is possible.
John
... Campbell's Primordial Soup: Add water and energy, stir for 1E+9 years.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:00
EID:9247 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b9668d
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> It had something to do with twinkies, didn't it?
DW> Twinkies qualify as a lot more?
Depends on your appetite. I could eat a lot of Twinkies.
RC> In the meantime, could I interest you in a Steingrobe?
DW> Only if you pay me to take him.
Do you take Canadian quarters?
RC> He wants to be verbally spanked, and you seem qualified to help him.
DW> Yeah, I know. He still shows up in #atheism from time to time,
DW> looking for martyr points.
He may have collected a few in #holysmoke Tuesday night.
DW> I think he actually dislikes you more than he dislikes me,
DW> though. Something about you being impolite and manipulative,
DW> if memory serves.
Where "impolite" means not granting his superstitions any undeserved
respect, and "manipulative" means not letting him just call someone
a liar without requesting reasonable justification for his accusation.
DW> I guess I'll have to try harder.
Offer him a Twinkie.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Holysmoke convention
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:00
EID:cc32 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b9668e
TID: GE/2 1.2
DM> I have been pondering the "how many naked HolySmokers can you
DM> squeeze into a Las Vegas hotel room" event, in hopes of extracting
DM> some useful knowledge from the experiment, and it occurs to me that
DM> you can probably get _all_ of them (like angels on the head of a
DM> pin) in there if you use a lubricant to enhance packing. The image
DM> of nude echo folk, fragrant with warm olive oil (extra virgin, of
DM> course), sardined to the gunwales of Room 6969 rather boggles the
DM> mind. And we'd leave quite a slick in the pool afterwards, too.
We'll just have to see, won't we?
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JONATHAN FINGAS
|Sub: fairy tales
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:02
EID:065a 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b9668f
TID: GE/2 1.2
JF> It's called THE BIBLE. You certainly don't have any proof
JF> that Jesus DIDN'T turn water into wine, feed 5000 with a lone
JF> basket of food, or walk on water.
No "proof" required to doubt such obvious fairy tales.
Have you any evidence that these things could have occurred?
If so, kindly cough it up.
JF> As I'd mentioned in previous messages, the Christian teachings
JF> preach peace, love and tolerance; it's the people, who are
JF> flawed and biased, who selectively re-interpret things for
JF> their own ends.
So you selectively ignore Jesus saying "I come not to bring peace."
Nice salad bar religion you have there, Jonathan.
JF> Being Lutheran, I try (and sometimes fail) to keep things
JF> "by the Book."
Why so much reliance, Jonathan, on your _selective_ interpretation
of an old book?
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: MARILYN BURGE
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:02
EID:91a7 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96690
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Brian Shreve
BS> I also believe in reincarnation, but if it's not real, I assure
BS> you I won't lose sleep over it.
MB> You realize, of course, that reincarnation is a mathematical
MB> impossibility, don't you? There are more people on the face
MB> of the Earth today than have lived on the Earth since the first
MB> homo sapien sapien stood upright. So, where do all the extra
MB> "souls" come from?
From the Minbari. Don't you watch Babylon 5? :-)
Of course, they only account for the last thousand years or so.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: BRIAN SHREVE
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:04
EID:45e3 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96691
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Marilyn Burge
MB> I didn't say "totally free," now, did I. I said "free."
BS> You said what you said, TRULY free... NOT as I said "totally free".
So she was right to correct you, OK.
BS> Now pray tell, what's the difference between truly and totally ?
Take a look at, say, an automobile which is truly red, but not totally
red (the chrome bumpers, for instance, are not red).
Feeling stupid, yet, Brian?
Truly, though not necessarily totally. :-)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: some ado about nothing
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:04
EID:6f3b 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96692
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Stuart Lumgair
SL> None is not a number.
DC> Oh, but it is.
No, while zero is a cardinal number, "none" is a qualitative statement
opposite to "some" -- neither one of those adjectives qualifies as
a number, though, to be perfectly strict on this matter.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: PAUL DAVIS
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:06
EID:1df8 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96693
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC>> But when you drag a god into it, those really aren't the *initial*
RC>> conditions, are they?
AS> They are the initial conditions of the UNIVERSE, Robert.
RC> Not if you suppose a god exists, because then it would be a part
RC> of the universe.
PD> It depends where you posit the God exists.
No, it follows logically from the universe including, by definition,
all that exists. Thus, if a god exists, it is in the universe.
PD> Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Bourbon or Scotch, which for you?
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: CURTIS JOHNSON
|Sub: just Al
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:06
EID:4387 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96694
TID: GE/2 1.2
CJ>> Take that, Heraclitus, Anaximander, Pythagoras, Thales,
CJ>> Protagoras, Anaxagoras, Parmenides, Empedocles, and Anaximenes!
CJ>> If it weren't for Al, we would have been fooled into thinking
CJ>> you were philosophers!
AS>> Life is full of suprises.
RC> Such as Al taking the above response to his idiocy as a sign that
RC> you couldn't possibly be disgusted and alientated by him.
CJ> It wouldn't be a surprise--but I am fearful that he took it
CJ> as a flat seriousness from me.
No, they aren't "True Philosophers!"
CJ> Well, Al said there couldn't be philosophy before Socrates,
CJ> so--there couldn't be philsophy before Socrates, because
CJ> Al said so, and damn everybody else!
And we all know that Al is always _so_ accurate. LOL!
RC> Note that he has backpeddled to "there was no TRUE philosophy
RC> before Socrates."
RC> If there were ever any doubt to Al's fundyhood, this should
RC> take care of it.
CJ> What the fuck are you, false philosophical scum?
No doubt.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: CURTIS JOHNSON
|Sub: more babbling email
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:08
EID:2a84 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96695
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> He was also boasting that he'll "outlast" me on the issue
RC> (similar to his earlier boasting of "I'll wear you out"
RC> made to Ronald Vass). Poor Al seems intent on digging his
RC> own grave, and then burying himself with his own junk email!
CJ> A clear confession, in my mind, that he relies on quantity
CJ> instead of quantity.
It doesn't take his confession to see it's a fact.
CJ>> My previous e-mail may not have reached you because the board's
CJ>> problems; but to make sure, you're at curry@gte.net, right?
RC> Bingo.
CJ> Look for it soon.
Nothing as of yet.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: Eckankar - ???
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:08
EID:827e 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96696
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Paul Halyung
PH> What is Eckankar?
JJH> It's a Scientology spin-off, spiced with a whopping dose
JJH> of Eastern-sounding mystical shit.
JJH> I'm suprised they are still around. This is the first
JJH> mention I've heard of them in a couple of years.
We've got them here. I never knew it was a Scientology spin-off.
Can you tell me where to find more info about that?
Thanks.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: would you, could you?
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:10
EID:e3cf 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96697
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Al Schroeder
with: Lynda Bustilloz
MH> But what she's saying is, if God can be credited for bringing
MH> her and George back together, shouldn't he also be blamed for
MH> bringing her and her ex together? Why credit God for the good
MH> if not blame him for the bad? Why assume he's manipulating
MH> things when good stuff happens, but somehow not paying attention
MH> when bad stuff happens?
If you get a serious answer to this, Michael, I will be astonished.
Say, do you remember getting royally pissed off at people here in the
echo who dismissed some of your (former) beliefs as too silly to even
contemplate without ridicule? Some time ago, I was reminded of your
messages directed to my attention on the matter, in years past.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: superstition two
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:10
EID:4471 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96698
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Michael Hardy
MH>> The gospels are far closer to agreeing about the details
MH>> of Jesus's trial and execution than about his Resurrection
MH>> ... suggesting that the mundane events have a base in real
MH>> history, while the more fantastic ones may not.
AS> Odd that it would convince Paul, writing just twenty years
AS> later, and at one point a profound skeptic, of its authenticity.
MH> But it *didn't* convince Paul, did it? Paul wasn't convinced
MH> until he got a personal audience with the risen Lord.
Hmmm.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: final exam
|Date: 23 Jan 97 03:46:12
EID:6b6e 22371dc0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25b96699
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Al Schroeder
with: Marilyn Burge
AS> My standards are my own, and when they depart from them, as you
AS> observe it hurts their reputation much more than mine.
LB> I'm just leaving that statement to stand there all on it's own.
LB> What hubris...anyone who departs from AL'S standards are in
LB> danger of their reputation being hurt?
ROFLMAO!
Far less danger to their reputations than if they adhered to such
substandard "standards."
Dogmatic absolutism is one attempt to behave ethically. A very poor one.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: He Come de Judge
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:27:00
EID:8234 22373b60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25e5d015
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Lynda Bustilloz
RC> Silly Harpy!
JB> Hey, boy, when you say that. Insult one harpy, insult us all.
JB> Don't sleep too soundly. Remember that harpies are nocturnal.
JB> We deliver chocolate pies while the rest of the world slumbers.
Sure beats traveling in rush hour traffic, eh?
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:27:00
EID:ff47 22373b60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25e5d016
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Marilyn Burge
RC> Not to mention that adopted children are wanted by those who
RC> do adopt them. That's more than can be said of some who aren't
RC> adopted.
JB> Still, ALL adopted children...even those with the best
JB> families...go through a stage where they are alternately
JB> convinced that they were stolen from their birth parents
JB> (who were rich, beautiful, powerful and never, ever
JB> yelled and made you clean your room or said no to anything)
JB> and sold or were totally unwanted by same.
Well, not ALL. I was adopted -- by one parent. A Brady Bunch deal,
where two families merged into one, giving each set of kids one
biological parent plus one step-parent (the adoption came later).
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: A Serious Question
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:27:02
EID:362e 22373b60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25e5d017
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Martin Goldberg
MG> Face it. medical health is a matter of biology and not divine
MG> intervention.
AS> Certainly. And that biology is dependent on---again--the constants
AS> being just so.
The particular class of possible biologies is dependent upon the
particular constants; other constants would imply a different class
of possible biologies.
Again, so what? Do you believe you have proved something?
Forgotten the Sample Space Challenge already, have you? It figures.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: Jesus, rape, and a child
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:27:02
EID:5197 22373b60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25e5d018
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Ron Vass
RC>> BTW, where is Jesus when little children are raped right before
RC>> his allegedly all-seeing eyes?
AS>> Well, since He is a part of God, who is omnipresent, He is there.
Note that you later recant the "omnipresent" portion of the above.
RC> So Jesus fucks the little children. How sweet.
RV> As one can see, for Al, it's no big deal.
AS> Now, this is where I do an outraged WHAT???? All I said is He
AS> is there. In fact, if you look at the next sentence afterwards,
AS> I say, He is present in the ABUSED child. If you will notice
AS> in my answer to Robert, I give quite a few scriptural references
AS> to say He is NOT in the abuser,
Thus, not omnipresent, correct? If OMNIpresent, Jesus DOES fuck 'em.
AS> I NEVER...repeat, NEVER...said it made the girl a better person.
Then why do you believe Jesus sits back to let a girl be raped,
something that -- I will assume -- you yourself would not stand for.
How can you claim that morality is derived from such a sadistic god?
AS> It's Robert who made the (wrong!) conclusion,
It was correct given your claim that Jesus is omnipresent. Since you
have recanted that belief in favor of Jesus being present only in
the abused child, I later modified my analysis. But *either* way, you
believe that your god doesn't do anything effective to prevent the
torture of the violated child, despite being (so you believe) capable
of acting preventatively.
AS> and tried to make it sound like Jesus was the ABUSER...to get
AS> me mad.
If not the abuser, then an accessory before the fact. Equally vile.
What parts of your mind, what parts of your conscience and ethical
sense, must you shut down in order to believe in such a vile god
and not get angry? Talk about becoming _desensitized_!
No wonder the world is sometimes such a tragic place. We're still
outgrowing the desensitizing horrors that religious belief has
inflicted upon humanity for century after century after century...
Take a good, hard, serious look at your dogma, Al. Who but a monster
could have the *power* to prevent a child's rape while *refusing*
to prevent a child's rape? You present your god as a monster.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: freedom and life
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:27:04
EID:1f19 22373b60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25e5d019
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB> If you would, please sir, what color is your hair?
Well. What color do you want it to be?
JB> (This is a serious question that bears on the sanity
JB> of 2 people in the echo. Trust me. )
Try as I might, I can't imagine why. This wouldn't have anything
to do with Katherine and a desire for dissecting people, would it?
I've managed 4 years here without any explicit mention of physical
personal features. Before I ruin such a sterling record, you will
have to provide a good reason for me to change my established habit.
Or at least bribe me with a ceramic Star Goat.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:27:04
EID:c5a8 22373b60
MSGID: 1:3603/210 25e5d01a
TID: GE/2 1.2
DC> Why not, Al? Zero works quite well mathematically.
JB> Uh, as far as I can see, math doesn't work at all without
JB> zero. You get to 9 and there's nowhere else to go.
X, XI, XII, XIII, XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, ...
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
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|From: Sam Ferguson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Fundy lost library book.
|Date: 23 Jan 97 08:42:00
EID:8554 22374540
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e778b8
AS> Then were you talking about MANY myths, or one specific Egyptian
myth. AS> Tell me the name of the book, and let me try to find it first,
before you AS> try to upload it.
I did tell you the name: "Who is this King of Glory." The author is A.
Kuhn. It is not available thru the library. I bought it thru Kessinger
bookstore on the internet. $30.00 plus shipping. I downloaded it on the
internet at HTTP://www.irdg.com/pc93/kuhn.htm. It has many of his books
online and I have downloaded all. I also d/l the Andrew White book from
another source. The library had it lfted so put in request and have it
now. I will let you know whn I return it if you want to request. It's
from out of town so may save you cost of shipping if you get it now.
Al it was from many, many myths. The mythical drama was the origin of
all religion. It was to portray the cycles of life. The book does not
promote any organized religion. Neither do I. You misunderstand the
Rosicrucians as a religious organization, it is merely a school of
philosophy, teaching moral living and natural laws.
AS> Yeah. I like Bredeson's plans for the library, but the arena is just
one big yawn to me.
The arena and stadium were promised without a tax increase. Of course
the new increse necessary because of them will be blamed on schools and
library. Seems the priesthood aren't the only ones who mislead the
masses.
Al the library now has a couple of computers with NETCOM. Do you know if
you could call in thru their ISP and then switch your netcom thru your
own computer? You could use it for E-mail. Too slow for browsing. They
need to greatly increase bandwidth. They are on same networks with all
the schools.
___
X SLMR 2.1a X A classic is a book that is praised but not read!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Re:
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:31:50
EID:a217 22373be0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8267b
AS> Well...remember I think Jesus was an incarnation of God. In that
AS> respect, he says, "Do as I said...and did."
JH> You mean like cursing out-of-season fig trees?
Yeppers. Better than cursing people, anyday.
... Love to chat, but I must get back to the ritual sacrifice!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ...
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:41:16
EID:98c6 22373d20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8267c
AS> Such as when prayers are answered, for instance. A good example can
AS> be found in Augustine's writings, where he describes a miracle, when
AS> the world "stops" around him and he sees into deeper things.
DC> And I thought that LSD wasn't synthesized until the 20th
DC> century! Good work, Augustine!
See? I TOLD you some Christians were ahead of their time...
... Insanity runs in my family; it practically gallops...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ...
|Date: 23 Jan 97 19:42:36
EID:5f97 22379d40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8267d
AS> Not necessarily.
AS> I can have my son ask me for something I normally would not have
AS> considered giving him. Is it still subject to my will whether he gets
AS> it or not? Well, yes, if it's more than his allowance.
LB> Then its safe for me to assume it was NOT God's will that I not go
LB> through 5 years of hell.
And where do you get that from the above, pray tell? Sometimes my children
get hurt, also. It is not my will, and the hurt's still there. Often from
something THEY decided to do.
But they don't turn on me and demand, "How could you let me go out and
hurt myself!"
LB> Thank you for that clarification, Al.
Thank you for the mystification, Lynda.
... Actually it's not replying that takes time, it's choosing a tagline.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ...
|Date: 23 Jan 97 07:55:28
EID:5dc4 22373ee0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8267e
AS> be found in Augustine's writings, where he describes a miracle, when
AS> the world "stops" around him and he sees into deeper things.
JB> WOW!! You mean like 'I'm mellllllting into the color...can't you see
JB> it'?
SOMETHING like that...
... Operator, trace this call and tell me where I am.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: ???
|Date: 23 Jan 97 08:38:08
EID:6d54 223744c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8267f
` AS> Name one besides Christianity which has people of the same generation
AS> saying they saw the god resurrected...and so underwent persecution
AS> (torture, imprisonment, and death) because of it.
RV> What about the god of homosexual. Those who are not class
RV> as the normal, will undergo all of the above.
RV> [ this has happen ] still happens. Gay people must be the
RV> only Real True Humans.They know ahead of time what might happen
RV> to them.
True. Certainly many gays know that can happen to him. Some even double
the risk...like W.H. Auden, who was a wonderful poet, a homosexual, and
Christian.
RV> Then too what of the god of blacks.
RV> Those who are not class as the normal, will undergo all of the above.
RV> Perhaps not so much in this day and age, but in the pass.The black who
RV> stood up for human rights of blacks went through all this shit.
RV> Are Blacks, the only Real True Humans. Blacks also knew ahead of
RV> time what would happen if they stood for their rights. Some still
RV> tried.
Dr. Martin Luther King's god, for instance?
RV> Or is it only those who have Al's God, who are Real True Humans.
No. We're all too woefully human.
RV> Forget the gods, look to the humans who go against the current
RV> grain of socity. Or does it only apply to a one time event and never
RV> happen before that event and has never happen since ?
Anyone who starts a new movement is liable to presecution. Whether it's
good or not. The difference is...here the founders were persecuted for
saying, in the face of every possible incentive not to, that they
witnessed a miracle.
RV> How does humans getting beaten to death for their belief show
RV> any kind of evidence for a god happening. If and a BIG IF Al, it may
RV> help your real god. Show how it only happen once and never again.
Sure.
Find me an incident in history where people were willing to be jailed,
tortured, or even killed, for witnessing the impossible/miracle. Note the
WITNESSED. That's very important. They have to claim to have actually seen
same.
Then find out how many had MULTIPLE witnesses for same. Individual
hallucination is fine. Group hallucination is a whole 'nother animal. If
it's not sheer suggestion, in which case they wouldn't all see the same
thing, what medium conveys the exact same image to them all...even to
eating boiled fish?
Some people will back an absurd belief, but you start threatening them
with jail, or put them to torture (and the disciples were all whipped by
the Sanhedrin, and narrowly escaped being put to death, according to
Acts.) or even kill them (James, the brother of John...)...not for their
faith in an abstract entity that they have never seen...that IS
common...but for saying they witnessed the impossible. That's different.
RV> Otherwwise it's all just so much bullshit and shows nothing to
RV> back a Jesus belief.
Ok. Elvis sightings are common, right?
Now, take twelve close friends of Elvis. Who knew him well, who wouldn't
be fooled by a casual imitation. Priscilla, the Colonel, Lisa Marie...
Have them ALL say they say Elvis.
Have them hold to it even in the face of prison, torture, or death.
Would you not wonder, at the very least, what they DID see?
RV> So they knew what may happen, big deal. Many before and after
RV> have gone the same route and still go through it.
But they don't say they witnessed the impossible...and hold to it no
matter what.
... The floggings will continue until morale improves.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: ????
|Date: 23 Jan 97 08:53:26
EID:ef2c 223746a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82680
AS> No; "what you do FOR the least of these, you do for me." He is present
in
RV> The one who does the rapeing is doing it for Jesus.How nice.
Like hell.
Literally, btw. It's saying whatever abuse they heap on the innocent, they
are also heaping on Jesus.
AS> the victim. But the perpetuator? "Whosoever hateth his brother is a
AS> murderer; and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in
RV> You would have to show that all/most rapes are trigger by hate. It's
RV> more a power trip then hate of person or their sex.
I would say a power trip entails some hating of the ones you are trying
to
be superior to. But you might be right. And what does it say about those
who promote themselves in the Bible? To sit at the foot of the table, the
humblest spot. That he who serves most is the greatest. That blessed are
those who are downtrodden.
AS> him"---and rape is essentially an act of violence and hate. And similarly,
RV> "violence" i can agree with, i would debate "hate".
I think it is debatable.
AS> "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject
ot
RV> "carnal mind" back then is sex lust ? thats the way i take it. Rape
RV> isn't so much sex lust as a power trip.
It's more living in the flesh. A glutton, for instance, is thinking
carnally just as much as a rapist.
RV> Going by the bible, i also better not love my father or mother. Also
RV> since my so called myth soul is surrounded by flesh ,
RV> every day i stay alive, I displease your god.Cute Al.
No. Jesus lived in the flesh while he was here. It's just asking which you
put first.
AS> Oh, tell us again how you don't blame gods for anything.
AS> How sweet.
RV> Just Your God, Al.
Yeah, I've figured that out... The Judeo-Christian God can do no right
in this echo, other gods can do no wrong.
RV> now shake that dust off your feet and get moveing
I'm fine right where I am, thanks.
... Oy, Rocky, vatch me pull a Rabbi out of my hat!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Re: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 23 Jan 97 19:47:32
EID:6540 22379de0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82681
AS> No; but suppose the salvation of all mankind depended on the raping
AS> of a little girl, for some oddball reason...would we thank the rapist?
AS> It still is a reprehensible act.
JH> It is indeed. But should the rapist be held responsible if it was
JH> all part of God's "great plan"? If that was the case, we should
JH> probably neither thank or vilify the rapist. Just curse the god who
JH> made the rapist's actions necessary.
Would you? I wouldn't. I would blame the rapist, who is, after all, doing
the act. I doubt if you or I COULD rape someone, especially a little girl,
no matter what it depended on.
AS> Well, suppose Judas was merely a Hebrew patriot who thought Jesus'
AS> death, though sad, was necessary for the Messianic prophecies to come
AS> through, and thus went to Caiphas without pay to betray Jesus, after
AS> formally telling Jesus he could no longer in good conscience follow
AS> Him. That at least would be more straightforward.
JH> Was it necessary for Jesus to be betrayed by someone?
It was necessary for Him to die; past that, you got me. Some people think
I'm arrogant...well, I'm not arrogant enough to think I know all the whys
and wherefores of the Crucifixion and Resurrection.
AS> "These things must come, but woe unto him by whom they come..."
JH> Why? Didn't betraying Jesus satisfy the will of God?
No; any more than someone who is a sadist is to be commended because he
tortures a murderer.
JH> What would have happened had Jesus lived to be an old man and died
JH> of natural causes? Would all sins still be supposedly washed away?
Got me.
JH> You didn't capitalize the H, heretic.
AS> Uh oh. Does that rate boiling in oil or burning at the stake?
JH> I think I'll stick you in the combination Rush Limbaugh/Macarena
JH> room.
AYAAHHHH!!!! Boy, the Grand Inquisitor has nothing on you...
AS> Aren't we all sent here with the knowledge that we will die? Does
AS> that mean we should praise those who speed it up, like murderers?
JH> You know what I mean, Al. Jesus was not sent here to die of natural
JH> causes. Where would your mythologies be if the sins of the world
JH> were washed away by a guy dying in his sleep?
Well, it wouldn't be as dramatic......and in all honesty...it wouldn't
touch us all so much.
... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 23 Jan 97 09:19:28
EID:5791 22374a60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82682
Jd> Good point. I see it rather as an instruction manual in two
AS> parts...one for more primitive times, another for more mature
AS> times...but you can look at it either way.
Jd> It seems to be a pretty crummy instruction manual, or hadn't you
Jd> noticed? It seems to come in a lot of different VERSIONS, never mind
Jd> translations, and then there's those bothersome APOCRYPHA.
Jd> And, in the differing versions, those following one version are
Jd> inspired to hate and attack those inspired by a different version.
Jd> So, Al, look us straight in the eye and tell us this is the work of
Jd> the INFALLIBLE!
But I didn't say that. I don't think it, in that sense. I think it is the
work of a great many men...some of which may have been guided by God...or
perhaps those who put it together were. I don't think...per se...that this
is a word-for-word dictation from the Infinite.
Jd> P.S. Do the preachers of this 'instruction manual' from the
Jd> all-knowing follow it for curing leprosy?
To this extent; many of them set up leper sanctuaries and worked among
them whom the ancient world would't touch.
And that's part of the instruction manual, too.
... "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" - Ockham
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 23 Jan 97 09:33:44
EID:3e68 22374c20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82683
MH> OTOH, it explains where Al gets his wordiness. Barth takes ten pages
MH> to communicate a simple point too. :-)
LOL!!!
... The world is coming to an end -- please log off.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: assertion by Al
|Date: 23 Jan 97 09:37:14
EID:6a9f 22374ca0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82684
AS> I don't. I think it's funny for an atheist to go "Good Lord!" I still
JB> Gee, I thought Lords were those titled people who preside in the upper
JB> chamber of the British parlaiment.
Maybe he was calling on Lord Byron, Lord Peter Wimsey, or even Lord
Greystoke...
... You mean, you can use the telephone line for TALKING???
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: assertion by Al
|Date: 23 Jan 97 09:39:18
EID:628b 22374ce0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82685
AS> I don't. I think it's funny for an atheist to go "Good Lord!" I still
AS> do.
DC> Not as funny as the priest I knew say, "Jesus fucking Christ!"
That IS funny. And then there were the oaths in the Middle Ages...God's
head, God's loins, God's whatever...
... When Cthulhu speaks, EVERYONE listens.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: assertion by Al
|Date: 23 Jan 97 09:41:02
EID:63c6 22374d20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82686
RC> Good lord, you are dense.
AS> Not quite as dense as an atheist calling on a "Good Lord,"
AS> methinks.
MH> Actually, it looks like he was calling *you* a good lord ... shall I
MH> kneel? :-)
Shhhh!!! You'll blow my cover!!
... The speed of time: 1 second per second.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Baby In Critical Conditi
|Date: 23 Jan 97 19:48:54
EID:cac7 22379e00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82687
AS> Because killing corrupts a person, and makes them callous. Done often
AS> enough, it makes them sociopathic.
LB> On the other hand, so does prison.
Yes indeed. And some people choose to go to prison, by what they do.
... Hell hath no fury like an unjustified assumption.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Baby In Critical Conditi
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:02:30
EID:4bac 22375040
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82688
AS> It is a hard one to keep for any human society, unfortunately.
AS> Being Christian does not cure you of being human. It just points
AS> the way.
Jd> Indeed! Christianity seems to bring out the INHUMANITIY in its
Jd> followers. See: Ireland; Rawanda; Crusades; Bosnia; Witch-hunt;
Jd> Missions of California; Inquisition; Jim Jones; Christian Brothers
Jd> Orphanage molestations; Colorado referendum; etc.
Jd> etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.
Well, see: Zulu witch smellers; the mass murder of thousands of Zulus
after Tchaka's mother died; the infants sacrificed to Molech (see the
Cathage tophit); the infanticide of female babies in the ancient classical
world; the witchhunts in the lands acquired by Charlemagne, by
PAGANS...most of Germanic leanings...which Charlemagne, a Christian
king/emperor had to order STOPPED; jihads; the Indian mutiny; etc.,etc.,
etc.
Jd> You continue being an apologist for your superstition.
Jd> As you keep telling us, the adherents of christianity can't overcome
Jd> their human foibles, obviously the 'creator' of your superstition is
Jd> an incompetent. A perfect image of his human creators.
Only if He promised perfection in this life.
He promised anything BUT.
... Real men don't beat women.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:50:28
EID:00ba 22377640
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82689
JB> Dan, Al's been reading too many Victorian novels again.
Al's been in the delivery room three times, Judith. Barb had relatively
easy deliveries, but a walk in the park it wasn't. I'm glad you don't think
it excrutiating. Some may disagree with you.
She went natural the last two, had an epidural with the first, btw.
... "A man's character is his fate." -- Heraclitus
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:06:44
EID:1438 223750c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8268a
AS> Would you care to make one?
AS> I'm serious, Marilyn. Can you think of a good suggestion of a way to
AS> test for prayer?
MB> I have already stated in detail why it would be impossible to set
MB> up a double-blind test. Accept it. That's the way it is. It's
MB> impossible.
Never say never.
... This tagline does not exist. Provide evidence otherwise.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:52:12
EID:3f33 22377680
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8268b
AS> Certainly it does; it assumes that the bedrock of reality is
AS> intelligent and omnipotent (in the sense that He can do anything that
AS> it not logically inconsistent.)
DC> Then, Al, that 'bedrock' is not omnipotent. After all, you just
DC> placed limits on your 'bedrock'.
That He can't make nonsense actual? I'll try to live with such a
limitation. Oh woe.
DC> Say 'hi' to Betty and Wilma for me, and don't forget to
DC> feed Dino.
Bam! Bam! BAMBAMBAM!!!
... Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:16:02
EID:7db6 22375200
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8268c
AS> Well, yeah...
AS> Considering the rest of the universe is needed to keep the
AS> universe from recollapsing within a month's time. If the universe
AS> only consisted of, say, the Milky Way galaxy, it would have
AS> recollapsed in a matter of months.
Jd> Al, you must know that is blasphemy from Galilean heresy.
Jd> The earth is the centre of the universe, and everything revolves
Jd> around it.
Ever read the alt.skeptic.faq, and what it has to say about Gallileo and
his house arrest?
Jd> "Whereas you, Galilius of Florence, aged 70, were informed against in
Jd> the year 1615, in this Holy office, for maintaining as true a certain
Jd> false doctrine held by many, - viz., that the sun is the centre of the
Jd> world, and immoveable, and that the earth moves round it with a daily
Jd> motion. ............................"
Jd> "That the earth is neither the centre of the world, nor immoveable,
Jd> but that it possesses a daily motion, is likewise an absurd
Jd> proposition, false in philosophy, and, theologically, at least
Jd> erronious....."
Jd> There you have GOD'S HOLY TRUTH, commanded by God's INFALLIBLE
Jd> representative on earth!
The Pope wasn't considered infallible until sometime last century I
believe.
Maybe it hadn't kicked in...
Jd> How DARE you contradict your own god, Al!
I don't want to get all Prewitt-ish on you, but what the Pope decides God
says, and what I think God's word tells us, are two different things.
... It's a miracle that curiosity survives formal education - Einstein
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Bible disproves bible
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:23:32
EID:1c40 223752e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8268d
AS> At least, better sense than to take one statement out of context
AS> and not see how it is applied throughout the rest of the work.
Jd> And what a work it is....any part of it can be be disproved
Jd> by some other part!
Jd> Who decides the correct context, Al - you?
Yes.
JUST KIDDING!!!
God ultimately will decide whether we are reading it correctly.
... I agreed to suspend disbelief, not hang it 'til it died!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Bootstrapping up, up and away
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:25:08
EID:3855 22375320
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8268e
AS> It wouldn't be the first time the pope is wrong.
Jd> Impossible, Al. The Catholic church has declared the pope infallible,
Jd> and good catholic christians wouldn't lie to us, would they?
I'll have to consult the Bishop, be back to you on that...
Amazing how the Popes got along for eighteen hundred years without
infallibility.
...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Bootstrapping up, up and away
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:35:30
EID:3855 22375460
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8268f
AS> It wouldn't be the first time the pope is wrong. Oh, are you
AS> defining "sky" as the mere atmosphere? How quaint.
AS>
Jd> Oh. I 'assumed' your boot-strapping jumping christians would have been
Jd> confined to the atmosphere! Are you claiming then, that they have been
Jd> inspired to 'jump' into outer space?
Sure. Von Braun and the other ones I sent you on the previous post. All
been inspired to jump into outer space...via planes and rockets.
Jd> Could we have some evidence for this, Al?
Jd> NASA would be interested in such ability in these cost-cutting days.
Well, Paul got as far as the seventh heaven...whatever that is...but I
don't know if we'd be interested in sending probes THERE...
... "And I say I'm dead and I move." - The Crow
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Bootstrapping up, up and away
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:36:48
EID:3855 22375480
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82690
AS> Not the question. You asserted that it was atheists who devised
AS> planes and rockets in spite of the theists. Whereas I can show
AS> quite a few theists involved in such fields.
Jd> I was speaking in metaphors, Al. You know - parables. I'm surprised
Jd> and disappointed you didn't catch that, since you seem to find them
in
Jd> the bible.
Just wanted to make sure OTHERS didn't take it as anything but a
metaphor...
... Photons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:46:22
EID:caa2 223755c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82691
AS> Asking forgiveness is extortion???
JH> Automatically damning people for eternity and then telling them to
JH> ask for forgiveness is extortion.
If it were that way, sure. But the bit in Romans about a pagan's
conscience being its advocate before God makes it sound like it's not the
only way.
AS> Anyway, it also promises that we will have a cross to bear in this
AS> life, and that the world shall despise the believer. So it ALSO
AS> promises that we'll have it pretty rough in the here and now.
JH> Guess what? Everybody has problems. Despite it's use of the symbol,
JH> Christianity doesn't hold the monopoly on bearing crosses.
Very true. Although some have it rougher than others.
... I haven't killed anyone in... what time is it, anyway?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Dance lessons
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:48:30
EID:d2e2 22375600
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82692
Jd> What bible are you reading, Al? The one's I've read contained a lot
of
Jd> 'stuff' pertaining to our physical existence....dietary 'law', and
Jd> a lot of 'cures' for things like STD's and leprosy....(remarkably
Jd> ineffective cures, considering they came from the infallible!).
AS> Still doesn't negate or change what was said for our SPIRITUAL
AS> welfare, Jan.
Jd> Nice try Al, but that wasn't the issue.
Jd> It DOES refute your claim that the bible contains
Jd> JUST 'enough for our spiritual welfare.'
Suppose you have a cup in a car, which has just enough in it to make a
good martini.
You could say the car has just enough in it to make a good martini...the
ingredients and amounts to do so.
That says nothing about what else is there.
... "Look, don't worry. Everything's going to be fine. Trust me." - Han
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Deception Deity
|Date: 23 Jan 97 19:51:14
EID:7bd1 22379e60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82693
AS> Such as when prayers are answered, for instance. A good example
AS> can be found in Augustine's writings, where he describes a
AS> miracle, when the world "stops" around him and he sees into
AS> deeper things.
Jd> LIST OF FALLACIES
Jd> F01 * Anecdotal evidence
Jd> One of the simplest fallacies is to rely on anecdotal evidence. For
Jd> example:
Jd> "Violent crime is on the increase because you hear a lot more
Jd> about it on the news these days."
Jd> It's quite valid to use personal experience to illustrate a point;
Jd> but such anecdotes don't really prove anything to anyone. Your
Jd> friend may say he met Elvis in the supermarket, but those who
Jd> haven't had the same experience will require more than your friend's
Jd> anecdotal evidence to convince them.
Perhaps. But I wanted a first hand account.
Jd> Can't think of a more impartial source on prayer than saint Augustine.
Jd> GUFFAW!
Let's see. Would a miracle witnessed multiple times by hundreds of
witnesses do? Some quite influential and reputable?
You know anything about a certain St. Joseph of several centuries
back...and what he did?
Jd> Your god is the god of deception, Al.
Loki's down the hall.
Jd> Have you ever sold coastal real estate, or stocks over the phone, Al?
No; I didn't want to give you any competition.
... And on the 8th day God said, "Ok, Murphy, you're in charge."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Experimental Prayer
|Date: 23 Jan 97 10:58:54
EID:c300 22375740
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82694
AS> To be perfectly honest, Jan, I suspect that God would be under a
AS> severe temptation there to "call Pat home" so the idiot would not
AS> keep on embarassing Him. But that's probably my bias.
Jd> God must LIKE what Pat does - he's blessed with prosperity, isn't he?
"Blessed are the poor, for their reward will be great in Heaven." Would
you trust the average monopolist of the 19th century (Vanderbilt,
Carnegie, that crowd) or corporate raider of the eighties...Donald Trump,
et al?
And Jesus sure lived an expensive lifestyle...didn't he?
... Behind every good computer - is a jumble of cables!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: final exam
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:01:36
EID:5d5a 22375820
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82695
AS> My standards are my own, and when they depart from them, as you observe,
AS> it hurts their reputation much more than mine.
LB> I'm just leaving that statement to stand there all on it's own.
Good. Don't include the statement before, so people can see how I'm partly
agreeing with Marilyn, who makes the same point.
LB> What hubris...anyone who departs from AL'S standards are in danger of
LB> their reputation being hurt?
Punk.
... Never attribute malice when stupidity may be the answer.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: for your own good...
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:04:02
EID:f1ba 22375880
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82696
AS> mine, be done." Prayer isn't sorcery, Marilyn. It's a request.
AS> Sometimes things must be refused for our greater good.
Jd> Tell us how refusing the prayers of childhood leukemia, and serial
Jd> killer victims, is "for our greater GOOD" ????????????????
Don't have the foggiest on the childhood leukemia, so I'll pass on that.
(Problem of Pain.) Serial killer victims? It is better that everyone have
free will, even if it means some can misuse it violently, then us all to
be robots.
... I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: free will
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:05:24
EID:10aa 223758a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82697
AS> Well, I can think of a couple of objections. The God-interview idea
AS> is fine, except I don't think it would work in a lot of cases. How
AS> would you distinguish such from personal hallucination? Even if it
AS> convinced YOU, it would be useless at convincing someone else.
MH> But the point is *not* convincing someone else, it *is* to convince
MH> the one person who'd be convinced by it, the one who asked for it.
Well, for a lot of us, it would not be absolutely convincing. They might
check with a psychiatrist rather than believe they are actually contacted
by God.
... If you see any misspelled words it HAS to be line noise.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: freedom and life
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:09:30
EID:5caf 22375920
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82698
AS> Good. So did Bonhoeffer.
DC> You do realize, of course, that it was the Bonhoeffer quote
DC> that led to Jesse's fleeing of the Echo.
Sure. But although I don't agree with him about everything, Bonhoeffer is
an interesting read, in his CHEAP GRACE.
... Beware of finding a Jesus entirely congenial to you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: MIRACLE [1/2]
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:20:50
EID:6f81 22375a80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e82699
AS> Or is commenting on the trainer's bathroom habits. But I agree. It is
AS> showing the first elementary steps toward true language. Of course,
AS> they are using a human derived-language, rather than their own, and
AS> may have seen humans similarly use metaphors. So they might have
AS> learned by example, which is still great.
LB> All the same ways humans learn Al. We didn't all INDEPENDANTLY come
up
LB> with an English vocabulary, you know.
Which might be why I said, "which is still great".
LB> The above is as much 'true language' as any two year old learning the
LB> fine art of language play...taking words already within their
LB> vocabulary and rejoining them to generate new meaning. And amusing,
LB> toilet humor combinations are most definitely par for the course.
Yes. It's too bad the chimps didn't devise such a sign language for
themselves in millions of years, though.
... You must believe in free will, you have no choice.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: MIRACLE [1/2]
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:22:28
EID:416b 22375ac0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8269a
AS> I'm perhaps not the one to ask, but I believe that the chimps HAVE
AS> asked for food, at least, when it's not present. But, not sure of
JB> And Koko, the gorilla, gave every indication of understanding the
JB> concept of death when her kitten died. I don't think you get much more
JB> abstract than that.
Yes. Another abstract concept which has been observed in primates is
altruism, whether it is communicated or not...it was demonstrated by the
mother gorilla who saved the young kid who fell into the gorilla area in
the zoo.
... I think sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: MIRACLE [1/2]
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:23:44
EID:f65d 22375ae0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8269b
KD> Cats are capable of asking for food, Al - the word in feline is
KD> *miaow*, generally with body language indicating the food dishes. So
KD> the fact that primates could do this better is not surprising.
AS> Indeed. But I was thinking a more specific request for food...like
AS> making the sign for "banana" when one is hungry and there is no
AS> banana around.
KD> And my cats walk over to the cupboard if they want canned food [even
KD> if it is not visible] instead of dry. They walk to the refrigerator
if
KD> they want milk.
Sometimes I think cats are ten times more intelligent than humans, and are
too bright to show it...
... Famous last words #11: No, it's NOT loaded.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Re: MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 23 Jan 97 19:55:30
EID:9c79 22379ee0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8269c
RH> I asked my wife how she could be happy in Heaven, knowing I was
RH> burning in Hell.
AS> Oooohhhh. THAT's a rough question.
RH> Her answer was that she would not remember me. Now, since we have
AS> What???? Where does she get that?
JH> Maybe it's "God's plan" for keeping us happy.
Maybe, but there's no hint of it in Scripture.
JH> Would you be happy if you knew your wife was burning for eternity?
Whether my wife has yeast infections or not is none of your business.
Sorry, couldn't resist. No, I don't think I could.
... If you think you are confused, wait until I explain it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Re: more grist from the web
|Date: 23 Jan 97 19:56:16
EID:5891 22379f00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8269d
AS> "Okay, here are two doors. One leads to a smorgasboard of delicious
AS> food, and beautiful music, and fine books, and pretty ladies. The
AS> other leads you to a sheer dropoff and you will die, horribly, falling
AS> twenty stories. "Your choice."
JH> You forget the bit where God places us on a treadmill that's
JH> moving us towards the cliff.
Yep. That's a good addition to the analogy.
JH> And you also forget that some people may not want to choose a door.
Again, the Romans passage. Your conscience can be your advocate before
God.
... "The more impediments to legislation, the better." -- Heinlein
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 23 Jan 97 19:57:02
EID:0e2e 22379f20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8269e
AS> Look, some of the guys who STARTED the CofC were fairly englightened
AS> for their time. They regard the communion meal as symbolic, rather
AS> than an actual transubstition as the Catholics and Episcopals do. The
LB> Not offended, just correcting.
LB> From the Articles of Religion of the Episcopal Church, laid forth in
LB> 1801:
LB> Article XXVIII. Of the Lord's Supper
LB> Paragraph 2:
LB> "Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine)
LB> in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is
LB> repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of
a
LB> Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions."
Hmmm. Then why must any wine, once consecrated, be consumed afterwards?
That may be the theory. It seems far from the practice.
AS> about Revelations...but I can't deny that there is not the broad range
AS> of deep thinkers that we sometimes see in Episcopal or Catholic
AS> circles. OTOH, and please let no one Episcopal take this as a flame
AS> (that means you, Lynda) I have found more sheer spirituality in the
AS> CofC...or at least some churches of it...then I found in Episcopal
AS> churches.
LB> Why would I think it a flame for you to recount what is plainly your
LB> own experience, rather than something intended to be a universal
LB> truism? Considering the number of misapprehensions you have about
Well, look at the record in this echo..
LB> doctrinal issues within the Episcopal Church, I would be the first to
LB> admit that the parish of your childhood was less than fully engaged
on
LB> a spiritual or pastoral level.
It was seventeen years since I have been Episcopal, Lynda. And before that
I was only an occasional churchgoer, or my family's. Don't confuse my lack
of interest in same with my parish's.
LB> I have seen a fairly broad range of spiritual expression just within
LB> the Episcopal Church itself, and do know there is room for deep
LB> spirituality and a conviction to act in compassion based on that
LB> foundation. I also, as you know, have become inactive due to an
LB> abundance of example that, for many 'scandal' is the biggest concern
LB> they have, rather than any honest expression of what they say is faith.
LB> So why would I feel it a flame for you to acknowledge what I have also
LB> seen?
Because it's fine for oneself to criticize one's own "tribe"...like us
criticizing the political parties...but when an OUTSIDER does it, it
sometimes is more offensive. That's why I said it, so you wouldn't
possibly be offended.
So we have now exchanged a post acknowledging how unoffended you are.
Which nevertheless leaps to the Episcopal church's defense, and seems to
criticize my local parrish.
I'm glad you're not offended, Lynda.
... Frisbyterian: When you die, your soul goes up on the roof.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Mormonism IS Christianity, buttfuck
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:40:54
EID:1e89 22375d00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e8269f
AS> Mooth speaks, and you defending Appleton....can I claim the two
AS> instances above as examples of miracles?
DC> Only a technicality. I missed the original post where Appleton
DC> does claim to have walked with "President" Harry Truman on
DC> Mt. St. Helens.
If someone knows AROUND when Appleton said that, I may still have it...I'm
archiving some.
... It is illogical to expect a universe to exist.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: omni-sadistic
|Date: 23 Jan 97 19:58:08
EID:cbb4 22379f40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a0
AS> No; "what you do FOR the least of these, you do for me." He is
AS> present in the victim.
Jd> So you worship a sado-masochist!
Sometimes I can believe it, seeing what He allows us to do and say...
(this echo must make interesting reading, for instance...)
... And on the 8th day God said, "Ok, Murphy, you're in charge."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Prophesy This!
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:35:38
EID:028f 22376460
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a1
Jd> He does? How do you account for the myriad of 'interpretations' of
Jd> his communique, then?
AS> Human diversification and the spreading of memes. As we see in
AS> any tradition or body of work.
Jd> Dodge and weave, Al. Do the fundee shuffle, bob and slither, evade
Jd> and elude.
Thank you. Even answer directly.
Jd> Out of one side of your mouth, the almighty infallible god thing makes
Jd> his communiques count.
Yep.
Jd> From the other side of your mouth, he doesn't make them count because
Jd> of 'human diversification'.
Who said they didn't count?
Jd> It's entertaining, Al.
Isn't it though? All of them, that I know of offhand, have the basic
story...Jesus was tried, died, and rose again, no matter the local
variation.
Jd> 'Whoppers' fer Jeezus.
He's at Burger King?
... At least the doctors find me fascinating...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SUPERSTION
|Date: 23 Jan 97 12:39:40
EID:9263 223764e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a2
AS> a good imitator. A VERY good imitator indeed. And even went to the
AS> point of simulating wounds for it. Quite frankly, sounds more like a
AS> bad soap opera than real life.
JB> Identical twins, playing the games that twins do...PRETENDING TO BE
JB> EACH OTHER (in this case, one having a handy stand-in) could very
JB> easily fool people who had known 'him' for a very long time.
I know of at least two sets of identifical twins that I knew pretty well.
I don't think one of them could ever fool me for a minute, after knowing
them for over a year, as the other.
... Of course I'm sane. The voices said so.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SUPERSTION
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:56:34
EID:9263 22377700
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a3
AS> things are...like twins appearing and flawlessly acting just like the
AS> twin who died...and deceiving people who travelled with them for a
AS> year. You don't have any way to measure how "likely" a miracle can
JB> Yep deceiving people who traveled with them for a year. Let's see,
JB> what was that quote? Oh yes, 'who the hell are you?'
Must be one of those newer translations.
JB> And wouldn't anyone be willing to overlook a few aberrations in
JB> behavior? After all, being dead isn't quite like going for a two week
JB> cruise around the Greek islands. Bound to make a few personality
JB> changes, a few memories lost here and there, a bit of confusion about
JB> what really happened. I mean 'gee, I was dead and in hell, you expect
JB> me to remember what I had for supper last Friday?'
It's possible. It just presupposes they are cretins. Something never seen
before (supposedly), something totally alien to Jewish tradition (someone
raising themselves from the dead), something that is not even in the
prophecies of the Messiah (rising again)...and a guy shows up who looks
somewhat like him, doesn't remember everything Jesus would know, and yet,
in defiance of everything anybody with a lick of sense knows, accepts him
as
Jesus resurrected. Well, it COULD be. I suppose if my father had a twin
brother unknown to me, he could show up at my door, and I would think he
was resurrected, even though he couldn't identify some basic facts we both
only would know.
And further, he would be able to convince eleven other people who knew
him well.
SURE he could.
Um. Well, it's POSSIBLE, Judith. It's not an explanation, though, I
would accept for ANYTHING else...and it's only picked because it seems to
you more probable than a miracle. Personally, I think it would be a
miracle if such an imposture succeeded. (Although he seems to have gone
the full length trying to be convincing, to the point of wounding himself
in the appropriate places).
JB> The biggest thing is, these people who...you claim...knew Jesus SO
JB> well had to ask who he was. Even up close and personal. Which is real
JB> strange since people who never knew Elvis have recognized him so often
JB> since HIS death.
Right. It IS strange. But then, a Resurrected body would be...shall we
say..."strange". And if it were just a story, why would they make up such
an odd detail? And if it were a twin, why didn't they remark on his strong
resemblence to Jesus on the ten mile trek? (And remember, whatever excuse
you could give for them not recognizing the twin would apply equally well
to Jesus.)
... All the world's a stage, and Felini wrote the script.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SUPERSTION
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:19:48
EID:9263 22376a60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a4
LB> Your problem was promoting a soap opera. That's BARB'S gig. Al prefers
LB> superhero comics.
JB> How can anyone revere a character who hasn't changed his clothes in
50
JB> years?
No reason you should give a flip, but it made the newspapers and
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY that Superman, if that's who you're talking about,
will receive a new costume this March. (And new powers, and...)
It won't last. Heed the prophet.
... veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: superstition two
|Date: 23 Jan 97 13:43:10
EID:ee1c 22376d60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a5
AS> Odd that it would convince Paul, writing just twenty years later, and
AS> at one point a profound skeptic, of its authenticity. Or do we doubt
AS> Paul existed, or his own account of his life, about being a former
AS> enemy of the church?
MH> But it *didn't* convince Paul, did it? Paul wasn't convinced until he
MH> got a personal audience with the risen Lord.
Very true. But if that audience wasn't backed up by others who saw Him,
and convinced Paul that they saw Him, he would be lying...and wouldn't be
subtly envious of the disciples who DID know Him in life, and called his
seeing Him as different from the others, an "abortion", almost.
... Emmanual doesn't pun...he Kant.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: the real world
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:15:22
EID:2c4e 223771e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a6
AS> But which do you idealize? The Thomas Mores, the Martin Luther Kings,
AS> or just the rank and file? Which inspire us? I submit it is the
AS> Gandhis, the Mores, the Joan of Arcs, Martin Luther Kings who most
AS> inspire us, and we most aspire to be like.
MH> Inspire, yes. Aspire? I don't really think so. I think most of us are
MH> content to not be heroes, to not die for a principle. In evolutionary
MH> terms, whatever we may *think* about that kind of self-sacrifice, it
MH> happens seldom enough to not threaten the species.
But why should we even aspire to be, or be inspired by? Whence does this
admiration for the altruistic...IF all our feelings are purely shaped by
evolutionary methods?
AS> I think it is good in a deeper sense. But keeping the deficient alive
AS> makes no evolutionary sense, even though it appeals to all which is
AS> most human in us.
MH> That's true, it doesn't -- except maybe in a vague way by encouraging
MH> respect for our lives in general. However, like altruism, it takes so
MH> little away from our species that our overall survival isn't
MH> threatened.
In the long run, Mike, those who allow those with defective offspring to
be born...with heriditary diseases...compared to those who eliminate such
from the gene pool...must lose an evolutionary advantage. Correct?
So by that logic...we should be killing those who have heriditary
diseases or afflictions. Understand, I don't want us to do this...but why
should we have a different standard than the evolution which shaped us?
... Hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Thinking BANNED!
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:19:30
EID:890f 22377260
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a7
AS> Great scientists who are Christians include Pascal and Guass,
AS> Faraday and Maxwell, Boyle, Lord Kelvin, Gregor Mendel
AS> among many others, besides the thinkers listed above.
Jd> Name-dropping, Al? The old 'argument from authority' phallusy?
No, the old 'red herring' fallacy. From you. If you claim that Christians
don't think, the above list is VERY pertinent.
Jd> Nancy Reagen beleives in Astrology, but that doesn't lend it
Jd> any more credence.
But the list above doesn't give credence to Christianity....but it DOES
give credence to the fact that many Christians think, and think well.
Catch the difference?
... Jesus lefthanded? Sure! He was perfect, wasn't he?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: truth
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:22:04
EID:8c1d 223772c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a8
AS> paint myself blue and leap naked or near-naked into battle, like my
RM> Why not?
AS> Because it's 8 degrees out this morning, and the high will be 25.
JB>
JB>
JB> SISSY!!!!
Yeah, I know, I know. My ancestors would be ashamed...they don't make
Germanic barbarians like they used to...
... Sure I know how to copy disks, where's the Xerox?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: World stops again!
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:28:18
EID:bd4f 22377380
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826a9
-=> Quoting Jan deBoer to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
You sent it to Lynda instead, Jan. Just FYI.
AS> Such as when prayers are answered, for instance. A good example can
AS> be found in Augustine's writings, where he describes a miracle, when
AS> the world "stops" around him and he sees into deeper things.
Jd> Gee, Al - you don't suppose he read an account of the world 'stopping'
Jd> in the bible?
(Comparing the two accounts).
Nothing like. Really.
... "I think not," said Descartes; and promptly disappeared.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: would you, could you?
|Date: 23 Jan 97 14:37:42
EID:1c2a 223774a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32e826aa
MH> If God had a face
MH> What would it look like
MH> And would you want to see
MH> If seeing meant that you had to believe
MH> In things like heaven
MH> And Jesus and all of the prophets ...
MH> (From "One Of Us")
LOVE that song...
AS> Which events? God, I don't think, can be credited with the happiness
AS> of your marriage to George...that is something you two have built. Is
AS> it POSSIBLE (not saying it is, just asking) that God had something to
AS> do with you two getting back together, after your bad experience?
AS> That's possible, I think.
MH> But what she's saying is, if God can be credited for bringing her and
MH> George back together, shouldn't he also be blamed for bringing her
MH> and her ex together? Why credit God for the good if not blame him for
MH> the bad? Why assume he's manipulating things when good stuff happens,
MH> but somehow not paying attention when bad stuff happens?
I said it was possible, not that it was certain, of course. And of course,
I DO believe we can do good things ourselves. And it's not a matter of not
paying attention. It's a matter of allowing evil to happen...because we
initiate it...yet sometimes able to manipulate things to force a more
happy issue.
... What can you do at 3 AM? Psssttt - got a modem??
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: Chris Green
|Date: 24 Jan 97 04:12:58
EID:f666 22382180
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e83726
REPLY: 2:250/210.0 32e37859
PID: GED3 2.5
20 Jan 97 14:03, Chris Green wrote to All:
CG> From Maureen Green
CG> Having read the rubbish in this packet, I suggest you talk about the
CG> right of the individual to choose when they want to die, and the
CG> available ways of doing so.
Been there, done that, got the Kevorkian-O-Matic.
May I now suggest that you bite my ass?
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: . [1/3]
|Date: 24 Jan 97 04:13:54
EID:df86 223821a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e837ad
REPLY: 2:250/210.0 32e37864
PID: GED3 2.5
20 Jan 97 14:04, Chris Green wrote to All:
CG> Suggest you all read the USA/UK listing, as far as I am concerned the
CG> language has been deliberately provocative - looking for a fight -
CG> since my first message.
Fuck off.
CG> To be blunt, if most of you had come out with your language in an
CG> average pub you would have had a fist shoved in your faces.
Would you like to come over here and show me, shithead?
CG> You want to continue the abusive language, that's OK we can all
CG> trundle over to the international dragonwars echo.
I don't see anyone here stopping you.
CG> Yes, I have an attitude!
No, you're an idiot.
CG> 1. In the UK having a doctorate is no big deal.
And you wonder why your asses were kicked out of most of your empire.
CG> 2. Its OK to call a doctor an idiot in the UK.
As it is here. (Goldberg, you're an idiot.)
CG> 3. You don't call someone a liar in the UK unless you can prove it.
Liar.
CG> 4. In a UK echo if you curse and swear, this is taken to mean that
CG> you are feeling punchy and want to have a fight.
Bully for you.
CG> 5. Also cursing and swearing is taken to mean that you failed to
CG> attend school (5-16years), and are consequently a thick, semi-literate
CG> moron, or a Glaswegian.
Whining like the above is taken to mean that your a pathetic buttpimple
with overly tender ears, here.
CG> 6. Annoy someone who is English and articulate, and you get 'polite
CG> pomposity' and we tend to smile a lot; usually just before we kick you
CG> in the balls.
The abovementioned offer still stands. Let me know when you're scheduled
to arrive.
CG> 7. Respect is something one gets from one's peers. {You are not my
CG> peers,
You are quite right - there are no planarians here.
CG> 8. Foreigners are all regarded with suspicion, especially those from
CG> Countries which claim to speak English - India.
CG> America and Australia are 'old penal colonies' and 'dumping grounds
CG> for ultra-right wing Puritan fanatics' so what can you expect....
You can expect us to pull your ass out of the sling twice in one century,
that's what.
CG> 9. Stereotypically: Americans are seen as shallow, everything is on
CG> the surface, if anything bad happens you dive for the nearest drug,
CG> drink or therapist. You look down on the English Class System and
CG> worship your own class system of money, education and qualifications
CG> (completely forgetting that this is primarily how the English system
CG> works). The media rule your lives, you do as the media say, you
CG> conduct media trials, you buy only what you are told to, and only buy
CG> American - even if it was built in Japan.
Would you like some cheese to go with all that whine?
CG> 10. Stereotypically: you look down on the remains of the British
CG> Empire,
There are remains? Amazing. I thought the corpse had rotted entirely away.
CG> 11. You have increasing fanaticism and militarism plus the Christian
CG> Coalition
Your grasp of the obvious is astounding.
CG> - from over here this makes you appear to be
Whatever. We'll let you know when we care, ok?
CG> 12. Meanwhile, the 'old fogies' over here are pushing to get the UK
CG> into Europe and with a single European currency; basically because
CG> given the choice between becoming another American State, or being
CG> part of Europe, we'll take Europe every time.
Be happy we let you choose.
CG> 13. There is also a feeling that Americans are basically paranoid,
Who told you that?!
CG> 14. Americans prefer gadgets. Take the AR16 rifle - purpose built
CG> for American Forces in Vietnam - get a speck of dust in the mechanism
CG> and it jammed (take a stroll through Vetnet and ask them).
"A speck of dust." Really? You English are so cute with your lack of knowledge
about firearms.
CG> 15. Americans want world domination
If we wanted that, you'd be bowing towards Washington five times a day.
CG> 16. Americans are gullible. How many times have you bought the
CG> bridges, castles and other historic buildings of Britain over the past
CG> couple of centuries? Then there is the gent who bought London Bridge,
CG> thinking he was getting Tower Bridge - like I said, gullible.
CG> We always know when the Americans are coming to Liverpool - the prices
CG> quintuple overnight. But of course, you believe that no one can
CG> possibly rook an American.
*We* can afford it.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: . [2/3]
|Date: 24 Jan 97 02:30:14
EID:9b86 223813c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e8205d
REPLY: 2:250/210.0 32e37865
PID: GED3 2.5
20 Jan 97 14:04, Chris Green wrote to All:
CG> Or is it more likely that your Government fears a strong Europe?
Oh, no! You discovered our secret!
We'll have to kill you now.
CG> 18. Speaking totally as an Englishman, I think
I wasn't aware Englishmen were capable of that anymore.
CG> Yes, I think any attack on America's use or control of 'oil' would be
CG> enough,
You're goddamned right it would. Be sure you're not the one to do it, k?
CG> Or do you imagine that Reagan's 'under-the-table' aid to Thatcher
CG> during the Falklands War had nothing to do with all the oil that
CG> surrounds the islands; nor had it anything to do with the fact that
CG> these islands are nicely placed, as a jumping off point, should
CG> Antarctica be opened up for oil and mineral exploration. Not to
CG> mention being a nice place for monitoring South America, and for
CG> controlling the sea route past Tierra Del Fuego, and who does what on
CG> the southern sea, ice and land of Antarctica.
Unlike England, we still have *real* aircraft carriers, not those silly-assed
light carriers with half a squadron of V/STOL airplanes. We don't need dippy
little islands as "jumping off points."
CG> Britains are not Brits, it is offensive.
Too goddamned bad for you, I guess.
CG> He was physically and sexually abused as a child, he has school and
CG> psychological reports giving him borderline schizophrenia and
CG> depression.
And we should care because...?
CG> His grandfather managed to get him away from home on the grounds of
CG> teaching him stonemasonry, at 18 he had his stonemeason's
Ah! He's a ditchdigger. Everything makes much more sense now.
CG> Chris does not like Americans,
We return the favor.
CG> Early in his service a friend was killed, due to the actions of an
CG> american soldier, I don't know what happened.
Dumbass shouldn't have stepped in front of a bullet, I guess. You Brits
are kinda stupid that way.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: . [3/3]
|Date: 24 Jan 97 02:38:24
EID:6787 223814c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82190
REPLY: 2:250/210.0 32e37866
PID: GED3 2.5
20 Jan 97 14:04, Chris Green wrote to All:
[yadda yadda yadda]
CG> I've known him for 4 wonderful years,
I'm real happy for you.
Would you like to hear my story about how I actually beat Neil Armstrong
to the moon?
Or maybe the one about how I was the one who discovered the cure for smallpox,
only to have my work stolen by that other asshole?
Maybe you'd like to hear about the way I was single-handedly able to bring
about the fall of the USSR?
CG> end all, I've read some of the crap you people have written, had you
CG> sent it to me, I'd have sent it to the REC or ZEC and had this echo
CG> banned.
Here's your chance.
CG> I feel like taking a whip to most of you.
Feel free to come on over and try, ok? I'll even draw you a fucking map
*and* provide the whip if you can't afford one of your own.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 24 Jan 97 04:10:12
EID:d2d8 22382140
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e8365f
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32e67919
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 14:51, Don Martin wrote to Jonathan Fingas:
DM> Hate to break it to you, Scholar, but the proper study
DM> of Pharisees lies in Jewish, not Roman, history. Yes, I know
DM> you said "Roman era" which time frame includes the doings of
DM> these people, but only tangentially, as Rome had far bigger
DM> fish to fry than Israel.
Speaking of tangentially, I remember reading a book titled "The First Century."
I can't remember the author's name, but the book was interesting.
The author discussed the events in Rome, Judea, and China during the first
century, alternating locales with each chapter. If you're interested, I
could go try to dig it out of storage so I could let you know the name of
the author.
JF>> Still the same: it began in Israel as a peaceful
JF>> movement, and spread to Rome. There it remained
JF>> underground (and STILL peaceful) until the fall of the
JF>> Roman empire.
DM> How they managed to remain "underground (and STILL
DM> peaceful)" as this, by then Christian, empire fell _was_,
DM> one must admit, a pretty good trick.
God moves in mysterious ways, Don (or should I call you Dan, as one of the
fundies has taken to doing?).
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Ceppa - Holographic [1]
|Date: 24 Jan 97 02:48:02
EID:8f65 22381600
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82345
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32e6d4cf
PID: GED3 2.5
23 Jan 97 03:02, Dan Ceppa wrote to John Brawley:
JB>> I think we've confused ourselves. I'm not saying that we can't
DC> Of course your have confused yourselves, John. You are claiming
DC> that a god exists and can't back it up with real evidence.
What! You mean you haven't seen his "reading list," yet?!
Brawley's even worse than Schroeder, IMO. Al at least tries to put his own
spin on the bullshit he tries to baffle us with. Brawley can't even be bothered
to do that much.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: better?
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:05:44
EID:5d14 223818a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e8278f
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 ae241c46
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 19:33, Marilyn Burge wrote to Jan deBoer:
MB> A simple ooooops! would have been sufficient, and would have
MB> cut down considrably on the signal-to-noise ratio.
Why would one want to *decrease* the signal-to-noise ratio?
Do you have any idea what a signal-to-noise ratio is?
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:09:24
EID:23c0 22381920
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e828cb
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32e6c9e4
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 21:16, Jonathan Fingas wrote to Don Martin:
DM>> Sorry, books of propaganda (propaganda: writings to
DM>> propagate the faith) don't count as evidence for imaginary
DM>> superfriends. If you wish them to, you must accept what the
DM>> Vedas have to say about a bunch of gods you have probably
DM>> never heard of.
JF> And I guess 2/3rds of the world's population accepting a religion
JF> voluntarily,
Two thirds of the world's population accepts your religion? Really? Got
any evidence for *that* claim?
JF> and the various confirmed
JF> miracles that have happened around the globe have nothing to do with
JF> it?
Which "confirmed miracles" would these be? Who did the confirming?
Be specific.
JF> Why are you IN this forum anyways? Got a bone to pick with the
JF> church?
The name of this echo should have been a clue to you, moron.
DM>> idiot fundy thinks the guy said "proof". No, Glen did not
DM>> mention proof, a much more difficult thing than evidence.
DM>> He asked for evidence.
DM>> Got any?
JF> Proof IS evidence.
You do not get to redefine words to suit your purposes here, little boy.
Proof is only relevant when discussing mathematics or liquor. We deal in
evidence here. Got any?
JF> Unless of course someone automatically against
JF> the church feels it has to be otherwise to boost his ego.
Am I automatically against an organization responsible for the burning of
both books and people? You're damn right I am.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:13:16
EID:23c0 223819a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e828ff
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32e6cbba
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 21:23, Jonathan Fingas wrote to Dan Ceppa:
DC>> Do you have any proof that Easter Bunny doesn't exist?
JF> Yes, the time when I peeked into a closet downstairs and discovered
JF> my Easter chocolate was there. :-)
That's not proof, moron. Maybe the Easter Bunny was just using your downstairs
closet as a convenient storage place.
Try again.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:14:04
EID:23c0 223819c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82973
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32e6cc5a
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 21:26, Jonathan Fingas wrote to Dan Ceppa:
DC>> Let me state: You are a fundy fool and revel in the shit you
DC>> strew.
JF> By the way, you know how you said changing peoples' words can get
JF> you kicked out of this forum? Well excessive (and very pointless)
JF> profanity is another.
The fuck it is.
The moderator's name is Styx Allum. I'm sure he'll give you a copy of the
echo rules if you ask nicely.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: hypocritical people
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:16:36
EID:23c0 22381a00
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e829cf
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32e6d18a
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 21:48, Jonathan Fingas wrote to Curtis Johnson:
CJ>> The National Guard's coming--go arm yourselves with two
CJ>> .22 pistols? It makes no sense whatsoever.
JF> That isn't what He was expecting. He WAS expecting to be taken away
JF> though.
So much for that "omnipotence" bit, then.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: NATIVE AMERICANS
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:17:26
EID:7bfa 22381a20
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82a36
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 13:41, Roger Hunter wrote to Curtis Johnson:
DC>> Thing is, they had such a critter to pull the travoise. No
DC>> wheels, but the means to make it move.
CJ>> Dog? Not much a dog cart could have traveled.
CJ>> Horse--well, at the least you're talking time period. IIRC, both
CJ>> dogs and horses were used for travois.
RH> Nah; woman. Very useful beast of burden, then and now.
Are you trying to take the Small Dicked Misogynist Title away from me?
I suspect you'll have to try harder than that. "Fat women are good beasts
of burden," would likely be a good start.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: Bored
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:19:32
EID:df2c 22381a60
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82a7c
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32e69632
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 17:35, Patriot wrote to Marilyn Burge:
MB>> We definitely need a new batch of fundies. Maybe we can talk
MB>> Edweird into another month haitus and a return as a saved
MB>> Christer.
P> Well, don't worry.. I am here now.. You will never be bored again!
Two months - tops.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: he come de judge
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:21:12
EID:5fff 22381aa0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82af9
REPLY: 1:261/1137 3704060e
PID: GED3 2.5
23 Jan 97 01:45, Curtis Johnson wrote to Dan Ceppa:
AS>> Although for instance, the Visigoths, fled their cousins the
AS>> Huns and became Arians just to gain the protection of the
AS>> Empire...which Alaric later brought to its knees.
CJ> Al spins history . . .
And the rest of us get dizzy as hell.
CJ> The Huns were short, had small black eyes, flat noses,
CJ> came from north of China--not likely "cousins" to Teutons.
Sure they were. We're all descended from Adam and Eve, right? Howdy, cousin.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: humor the fundy fools
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:23:48
EID:3eb6 22381ae0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82ba5
REPLY: 1:261/1137 37040773
PID: GED3 2.5
23 Jan 97 01:45, Curtis Johnson wrote to Al Schroeder:
AS>> Oh, I agree with you there; I'm with Ben Johnson, kicking the
AS>> stone, showing that reality exists. But I don't fool myself that
AS>> it is NOT a belief. It is.
CJ> Sam Johnson, "Thus I refute Berkeley."
Wasn't that, "I refute it thus!"
Ever noticed how weird the word "thus" looks? Or is that just me?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: babbling bullshitter
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:26:40
EID:c145 22381b40
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82c6e
REPLY: 1:261/1137 3704094f
PID: GED3 2.5
23 Jan 97 01:46, Curtis Johnson wrote to Robert Curry:
RC>> AlleyTom [~al.schroe@199.78.224.185] has quit IRC (Ping timeout
RC>> for AlleyTom[199.78.224.185])
CJ> Thanks for posting this! (Any bets on how long Al will
CJ> whine over you posting this?)
I don't think even Al's that stupid. While he might complain about someone
posting something he said in a "private" window, only a complete moron would
consider the text in an open IRC channel to be "private."
He may surprise me, though.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: who does god like?
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:32:06
EID:f4ef 22381c00
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e82d72
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 21:15, Alan Hess wrote to all:
AH> Often, when an athlete or a team is victorious, the athlete or team
AH> will thank god for the victory. Does said victory mean god didn't
AH> like the other athlete or team?
Who was it that said, "God is on the side with the biggest battalions?"
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: more babbling email+
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:45:10
EID:27e3 22381da0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e83122
REPLY: 1:3603/210 24555d8e
PID: GED3 2.5
21 Jan 97 01:48, ROBERT CURRY wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
AS>> respect Mimi less for doing so; why so afraid to grant David
AS>> the same privilege?
RC> I am not in the business of "granting" rights or privileges, Moron.
Shit. You mean you *wanted* me to post the emails we've exchanged?
Sorry. I fucked up. :)
AS>> So I am. Which is why I shall never send email to you again, on
AS>> any subject.
RC> Excellent!
Amazing.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Our Daily Slave
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:49:00
EID:59e5 22381e20
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e83186
REPLY: 1:3603/210 24555d90
PID: GED3 2.5
21 Jan 97 01:48, ROBERT CURRY wrote to GEORGE MOOTH:
GM>> Your master is satan.
RC> That stupid fuck? Satan can kiss my ass, and if he shows up, I'll
RC> be happy to tell him so. Can you tell Jesus to kiss YOUR ass, George?
Satan wanted you to say that.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: fucked up priorities
|Date: 24 Jan 97 03:57:30
EID:124e 22381f20
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e833af
REPLY: 1:3603/210 256054c9
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 14:16, ROBERT CURRY wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
AS>> Because...arguing within the Abrahamic/Christian framework here,
AS>> Glen, not saying I can prove it...there are numerous verses
AS>> that say when one indulges in sin they seperate or alienate
AS>> themselves from God.
It seems that some presences are more omni than others.
Gah... do you feel a need to bathe after these discussions with Al?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: US CyberCensor Law
|Date: 24 Jan 97 04:02:52
EID:5ae1 22382040
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e834c1
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 2e787fab
PID: GED3 2.5
23 Jan 97 09:55, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to All:
[blah blah blah]
Seen any TANKS lately?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: demo
|Date: 24 Jan 97 04:20:16
EID:3fe6 22382280
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e83938
REPLY: 2:250/210.0 32e3784e
PID: GED3 2.5
17 Jan 97 06:06, Chris Green wrote to David Worrell:
CG>> Intelligence does not preclude stupidity.
DW>> Indeed? Hmmm... who was it that was just crowing about his IQ?
CG> Do you therefore contend, that someone with high IQ never makes
CG> mistakes? Never has the opportunity to be stupid?
I contend nothing of the sort.
My father once told me that the people who talk the most about sex are often
the ones that get it the least. I am contending that a smiliar statement
could well apply to talk about IQs. I'll leave it as an exercise to the
student to figure out the form that statement should take.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Patriot
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 24 Jan 97 04:27:20
EID:bebd 22382360
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32e83a6a
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32e5ba8a
PID: GED3 2.5
22 Jan 97 01:58, Patriot wrote to David Worrell:
P>> Besides, it isn't as if Christians are the only ones against
P>> homosexuality..
DW>> Yeah, and it isn't as if Nazis are the only ones
DW>> against Jews, either, right?
P> Well, I must say, you must have a pretty good imagination to come up
P> with an analogy like that.. There is a bit of a difference between
P> Christians and Nazis,
Is there?
---
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution 1/2
|Date: 22 Jan 97 11:12:08
EID:57b5 22365980
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 bd5c4992
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32e3331b
On 18 Jan 97, Lynda Bustilloz wrote:
AS> Well, for instance, John Brawley thinks he has gotten answers from
AS> God. So did Augustine. So did Son of Sam, to be fair. Are you
AS> convinced by them?
LB> Given that most christians that I'd comfortably wish to meet would
LB> admit they've never experienced any direct communication from God, why
LB> *would* I be convinced by them, absent some verifiable evidence
LB> outside their assertions?
One must carefully define what one means by "talking to God" (or
"communicating with" God). Lots of "Christians" I know will toss off
the phrase "talking to God" (or to Jesus) without much thought; they
know what they mean. But there are also cases in which "talking to God"
equates to "getting instructions to kill abortion doctors," and there
are also cases of rank insanity, which have the same talking-to-God idea
ensconced deeply into the delusion. There are also "voices" and so
forth.
One needs to define what one means. In my case, I do not mean "words,"
or "voices," and I do not mean "getting instructions" or even "clear
ideas." My particular use of "direct communication" tends to refer to
NONsubjective events in the world _outside_ my head, which seem to be
"meaningful coincidences" of extreme-unlikelihood. That is, my use of
the idea is generally related to what a religionist would mean by the
use of the word "providence" (logically; "directed coincidence").
There is also an occasional effect in meditation or structured thought,
which is perhaps best described by reference to its definition in Frank
Herbert's S-F novel "Dune" --the memory that comes of itself; the
appearance of a new thought that seems to be unrelated to what one is
thinking; that _seems_ (but may not) to have the character of not being
one of one's own thoughts.
Anyway, it's wisest always to try to determine what the writer or
speaker _actually_means_ by "talking to God" or "getting direct
communication from God," lest you do the speaker the disservice of
encouraging your readers to class him with the Truly Insane Loonies.
(*grin*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Science/Religion: Dharmakh and Jhalahd at Tanagra.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: truth
|Date: 23 Jan 97 11:45:58
EID:d0ab 22375da0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 463d2975
REPLY: 1:102/735.0 22368f64
On 22 Jan 97, Mark Kimes wrote:
MK> JB>>> _You_ have never been subjected to my ire or my creatively
MK> insulting JB>>> text.
MK> DW>> Indeed. It is hard to be subjected to something that doesn't
MK> exist.
JB> Even harder to find yourself subjected to something you wouldn't
JB> recognize if it jumped up and bit your ass.
MK> I hate to tell you this, John (you know I do), but if that's your
MK> version of "creatively insulting," Worrell's right.
(*grin*) Oddly enough, I didn't even think about being deliberately
insulting there. If I were _trying_, the pixels'd've fallen off your
screen. (IOW, no, that wasn't remotely like my ability when provoked.
I wasn't provoked by DW --never have been.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... When all think alike, then no one is thinking.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Peculiar State of Mind.
|Date: 22 Jan 97 12:53:30
EID:0add 223666a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 42cb3ac0
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88d52482
On (21 Jan 97) Laurie Appleton wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> :) More like a blend of stubborn Hollander
JS> tenaciousness and a lot of Grace.
LA> Good for you then. We need more like that. Incidentally
LA> my daughter married a man who was born in Holland and whose
LA> parents migrated to Australia. He is a fine man and has been
LA> a good husband. Does the name Van Leeuwen, sound like a
LA> typical "stubborn Hollander"? :-)
Sounds about as Dutch as they come. :)
LA> He is also a sincere and
LA> dedicated Christian and Creationist!
And praise the Lord for that, right?
... and the Word was God. - John 1:1
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: execute her ?
|Date: 22 Jan 97 12:55:06
EID:eb7d 223666e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 d183dfd1
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 32e468e6
On (18 Jan 97) Sue Alexander wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> would be spelled as a proper noun. BTW, what then _is_ the cause of
JS> most pagan divorces?
GT> Haven't seen enough for a valid sample.
JS> Neither you or your wife have never been divorced? You are that maniac
JS> who used to kick the crap out of her?
SA> This is NOT what you said above, and it lead into the quotes I
SA> recently reposted to you. As I was collecting the file tonight, I did
SA> find
SA> multiple indications that you were trolling in posts TO OTHER PEOPLE.
SA> You even agreed with JJ on the matter at hand. However, to the
SA> Todds you did do what she claims you did...even though you were
SA> trolling at the time.
SA> Fess up about it, Jimbo.
Here's my confession: If indeed Gwenny had not been divorced, then it
stood to reason that Glenn was the first husband. I knew better, hence
my quotes above end in question marks, and not periods. Call it trolling
if you like, but I intended it to merely drive home my point that he was
BS-ing about his lack of knowledge of pagan divorces.
... * Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Y...BANG! NO TERRIER
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: He's right, dear.
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:00:04
EID:9585 22366800
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 2224e7ae
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32de5a62
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> On 23-11-96 at 01:41, JIM STAAL wrote to FREDRIC RICE:
JS> Hi, Fred. How's it going? A bit insecure? You have to bash a poor
JS> Christian to get your day going? Let me tell you this: After a hard
week
JS> of deadlines and working 4 jobs, PRAISE GOD! HE IS GOOD! Life is good.
JS> Have a good week.
RS> I like you Jim. Whenever we think you've been pacified, you come
RS> out with the darnedest of hateful lines.
RS> Did you have Christian guiding in the posting of this attack on
RS> Fredric? Hmmm?
What in the above was 'hateful'? Where did I 'attack' him? How could you
overlook the uncalledfor lies he heaped up in the previous part of that
message and then isolate my questions to him and call them 'hateful'?
You are a bit on the blind side, aren't you, Rod...
... He that has ears to hear, let him hear. (Matt 11:15)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Irc Log Fun! 1/ [1]
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:07:00
EID:cda6 223668e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 3d311927
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32df01c0
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> On 03-12-96 at 21:12, JIM STAAL wrote to FREDRIC RICE:
JS> FR> Let's see if you can...
JS> FR> #1 Admit your a homophobic bigot
JS> I am not.
RS> Oh yes you are Jimbot! :) Of course, I was faking being Laurie
RS> Appleton to you, but this was riotously funny:
RS> IRC log started Sat Dec 28 12:26
RS> *** SnoopDD (~YoMomma@ip10.grand-rapids.mi.pub-ip.psi.net) has joined
RS> channel #h > Jim?
RS> > oh, you're back
Yeah...I'm still laughing. So what was your point?
... * Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Y...BANG! NO TERRIER
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:08:50
EID:688a 22366900
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 e3c531eb
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32df0424
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> On 07-12-96 at 09:08, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT:
JS> JS> Then why are Muscovites clamouring to get their hands on BIbles?
JS> RS> Because Christians can't convert anything but poor, feeble,
JS> RS> worndown humans who are in need of *something* to give them hope.
JS> RS> Try converting me, kiddy!
JS> Sure. Where do you want to start? And would you like to be converted
to?
RS> You may start your futile conversion attempt anywhere you
RS> damn well like :)
Yeah, I realize any conversation with you is futile, as you do not take
anything in a serious manner...
... * Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Y...BANG! NO TERRIER
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:11:24
EID:688a 22366960
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f8565177
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32df0590
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> JS> Truely the greatest country to ever exist under the sun does not
have an
JS> JS> oppressive system of government.
JS> RS> So gay people are equal in the US, eh?
JS> By Jim Staal they are...
RS> That did not answer the question. You stated the US has no
RS> oppressive government regimes. I asked you if there was
RS> oppression against gays *by* the government.
No you didn't. Read your post again.
RS> You gave a personal, not governmental, answer.
RS> Please try again.
I am not the government.
JS> RS> So black people are treated equally in the US?
JS> By Jim Staal they are. Why are you putting this on me?
RS> I'm actually not asking you, Jim, as stated above. I'm asking
RS> you to provide governmental examples of inequality.
I know of none.
JS> RS> If the US is so great, why can't it provide for it's sick and
JS> RS> poor and homeless?
JS> Most of the homeless are that way because they want it that way.
RS> -----------------------------
RS> You've been watching B5 again and swallowing the Ministry of
RS> Peace's Bullshit, eh?
Sorry, in the USA we do not have a propaganist, government controlled
press, so I have no knowledge of what you speak.
JS> RS> Rod "Ask my partner if the US is the best nation on this earth.
JS> RS> He will tell you otherwise." Swift
JS> What does he know? Is he sleeping with Herr Doktor Marty Leipzig?
RS> I've never made any statements of infidelity about your wife.
RS> Why do you make an ad hominem attack on my husband?
Hmmm...isn't this alleged 'husband' living in the USA? Show me the
certificate of marriage.
RS> Rod "...is it because you're a slimy, lying Christian after all
RS> -- and that you do treat gays discriminately?" Swift :)
You really like to make these totally ignorant accusations, don't you...
... * Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Y...BANG! NO TERRIER
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:14:22
EID:2214 223669c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 a34e3993
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32df060a
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> On 07-12-96 at 09:19, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT:
JS> JH> It was blown up by good ol' gun loving Christians like yourself.
JS> RS> I was in Dallas, the morning that the Murrah building went in
JS> RS> OKC. I remember the hysteria, the footage live on NBC, on CBS,
JS> RS> on ABC.
JS> Yeah...I was in Muskegon, Michigan. Big deal and so what?
RS> So you support domestic Christian terrorism?
I know of none.
JS> RS> Real national patriots don't do domestic terrorism. How does an
JS> RS> egalitarian right-wing gun nut say "I killed your
JS> RS> husband/wife/kid for patriotic reasons?"
JS> RS> I also remember Paul Hill and John Salvi, doctor-murderers.
JS> Salvi is dead. Shut up.
RS> Hill isn't yet... Such a shame. Do you support domestic
RS> Christian terrorism?
I know of none.
JS> RS> Christianity is love and tolerance, as long as you are a
JS> RS> Christian.
JS> LIAR!
RS> Bullshit, Jimson. The whole POINT of Christianity is to DESTROY
RS> that which is NOT JUST LIKE YOU.
RS> Convert or Kill, it's not only Christianity's guiding principle,
RS> but it's also CHRISTIAN LAW of the BIBLE!
Show me where Christ commanded this?
JS> Screw commies, treehuggers, bleeding heart liberal, feminazis and send
JS> the illegals back where they came from.
RS> Ah. So you believe in the principle of governmental-mandated
RS> inequality and division among US citizens?
I know of none.
... * Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Y...BANG! NO TERRIER
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:16:44
EID:2214 22366a00
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c476da69
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32df06fc
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> RS> I bet you that Jim is the type of Republican't who supports the
JS> RS> selling of those bumper stickers that were sold earlier this year
JS> RS> in Arizona and Texas (among other places) which proudly proclaim:
JS> RS> "AIDS: God's way of turning fruits into vegetables"
JS> RS> Such loving sentiment from the party that's "the big tent".
JS> No. You are in error.
RS> I am *not* in error. This activity *did* occur. Those stickers
RS> have even been criticised by major Republican players in AZ (like
RS> Barry Goldwater).
And also by little ones like Jim Staal
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: wisdom
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:18:10
EID:6214 22366a40
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 1730fc1a
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32e20306
On (19 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> RS> Tortured?
JS> A little...if they like it. ;)
RS> We know you like it :)
A little pain can be nice...
JS> RS> Killed?
JS> Wha for?
JS> RS> Anything else reprehensible that you'd like to do to other humans
JS> RS> who aren't of the same sexuality as you are?
JS> Treat them as humans?
RS> But your bible doesn't say that, Jimson. It says to kill them,
RS> and further, the putting of them to death is a punishment and
RS> their blood shall be upon them.
RS> So... When are you going to start acting like a True Christian
RS> (tm) and execute some gay people?
(Mat 13:24 NIV) Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven
is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
(Mat 13:25 NIV) But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and
sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
(Mat 13:26 NIV) When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the
weeds also appeared.
(Mat 13:27 NIV) "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir,
didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come
from?'
(Mat 13:28 NIV) "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked
him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
(Mat 13:29 NIV) "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the
weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
(Mat 13:30 NIV) Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time
I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"
It is obvious from Christ's parable above that that isn't my job.
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Lies...
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:22:08
EID:4b7c 22366ac0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 6086da07
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32e20380
On (19 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> JS> You just don't get it, do you, Ceppa? Christ _satisfied_ all the
JS> JS> demands of the law. He took care of it.
JS> RS> So it was a bug fix?
JS> No, it was God's plan.
RS> But it was God's plan to get it right the first time. Don't you
RS> read your bible? I still contend it was a "bug fix".
He did. Have you never read the Bible? And yet you criticize it?
JS> RS> How does this fare in contradiction to the bible's claim that
JS> RS> "God never changes" nor his laws?
JS> He never changes. Nor do his laws.
RS> I note that God always changes -- there's a different version of
RS> him in every Christian I meet. Normally a different version
RS> based on what sins they are practicing, and their denial of that
RS> sin.
Interesting point...
RS> So you do admit that the laws of Leviticus have not been removed
RS> from operation, now? You were stating how they had been replaced
Fulfilled.
RS> -- which I find contradictory to your statement that his laws do
RS> *NOT* change. You've stated that they do change also.
They don't.
JS> RS> Or is this an incovenience to your obvious breaking of Levitical
JS> RS> law that you put down to being as "unimportant"?
JS> Not at all.
RS> So you're a salad-bar Christian? A "choose-your-own-salvation"
RS> Christian?
Not at all.
RS> Rod "...tell us, Jim, what bits of the bible don't you believe in
RS> because they are *inconvenient*..." Swift :)
I believe every word in the Bible to be the true, inspired Word of God.
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Around the World in 80 Pr
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:24:16
EID:b74f 22366b00
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 7c0808fd
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A79439A
On (18 Jan 97) Michael Hardy wrote to Jim Staal...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Jim, but where is there
MH> *anything* in the Bible that demonstrates any kind of knowledge that
MH> wasn't available to the people of the time? How come the Creation
MH> story doesn't mention microbes, just for one example.
JS> It wasn't necessarily needed at that time. And, obviously not God's
JS> plan to bring that particular time. But, back to the question at
JS> hand: The relevency of scripture in today's world and life. Do you see
JS> anything, as far as exhortation that in the NT (Pauline books, for
JS> example) that isn't for the 90's?
MH> How about men not having long hair? Do you really think God cares if
MH> people can see the back of my collar?
Or mine. I didn't say I had an exigesical (sp?) explanation for it all,
merely that I hold it to be true.
... Do all things without murmurings and disputings: (Phi 2:14)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: AL'S DELIBERATE DELUS
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:26:06
EID:a362 22366b40
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 a5cb9ca2
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 a20e690e
On (20 Jan 97) Marilyn Burge wrote to Roger Hunter...
MB> On (18 Jan 97) Roger Hunter babbled to Al Schroeder...
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Fredric Rice <=-
AS> with Jim Staal or with any other believer. Better than
AS> putting oneself on a throne of one's own ignorance, and
AS> regard oneself as the crown of creation and rationality.
AS> Maybe if you say it often enough, and loudly enough, you may
AS> believe it.
RH> That's not the atheist position, Al. You know better than
RH> that.
MB> Look at it again, Roger. That's the CHRISTIAN position!
Look at it again, Marilyn. That's the Fred Rice position!
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Peculiar State of Mind.
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:27:16
EID:0add 22366b60
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 176c133f
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88d52482
BTW, Laurie, can you imagine the impudence of Rod Swift masquerading as
you and then directing me to a web site showing him smooching on his
boyfriend!?
... Pray without ceasing. (1 The 5:17)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shant Receive
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:29:00
EID:a5aa 22366ba0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 0b629046
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ded446
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to David Rice...
RS> I've never sinned either, David. Sin only comes if you believe
RS> in the concept, which I'm sure you and I do not. :)
Continue to delude yourself, Rod. The Truth will out.
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ooooh! Such a _powerful
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:30:04
EID:4892 22366bc0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 ccd8518c
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ded844
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Fredric Rice...
FR> #1 Admit your a homophobic bigot
RS> I have evidence of this from IRC Logs :)
I guess you should post it or eat it, Rod.
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Staal wants to know.
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:31:02
EID:da6f 22366be0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 6498d5d3
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32dee8c2
On (17 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Martin Goldberg...
RS> On 02-12-96 at 21:50, MARTIN GOLDBERG wrote to ALL:
MG> Does anyone outside of Jim Staal actually believe that
MG> Leipzig set his dog on a the pizza delivery boy just to get
MG> out of paying for the things?
RS> No. I don't.
Why not? You believe every lie Satan puts in your mind...
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Educational Experience
|Date: 22 Jan 97 13:31:50
EID:8c4e 22366be0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 abe0c80c
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 15dae8ab
On (20 Jan 97) Rob Burcham wrote to Al Schroeder...
AS> JS> yeah, and Jim Staal not only recognizes gays as human, but even
AS> JS> befriends them. Go figure...
RB> AS>
AS> Good to know.
RB> Hell, I bet he's even had one or two to his house for dinner.
Rob, too bad you didn't have any money on that. I have!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: goodbye! goodbye! n
|Date: 22 Jan 97 15:32:00
EID:a321 22367c00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 14e56522
CJ>CJ>>On 1 Jan 97 03:52pm, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to CURTIS JOHNSON:
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> SM> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!" [d&rg]
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> JH> GOURDS! GOURDS! SQUASH HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> DC> GARRANDS! GARRANDS! SHOOT HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> EV> GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> JH> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> DC> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> DC> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>>> ML> GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>EM>> GaAsFETS! GaAsFETS! AMPLIFY HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>>RV> GROWLER! GROWLER! SHORT-CIRCUITED HIM!
CJ>CJ>>CJ>> GOPHERS! GOPHERS! FTP HIM!
CJ>CJ>> KW> GALACTOPHORE! GALACTOPHORE! MILK HIM!
CJ>CJ>> Eh? _Milk_ him?
CJ> KW> Milk glands.
CJ> Yeah, but does the "him" have developed milk glands?
Give him the right hormonal stimulus, and I understand that you could
milk him. Now, whether or not anyone would care to try would be a whole
different question.
CJ>CJ>> GALACTOSE! GALACTOSE! RUN HIM!
CJ> KW> GORGONZOLA! GORGONZOLA! MOLD HIM!
CJ> GORGONS! GORGONS! STONE HIM!
GELID! GELID! ASPIC HIM!
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * We are the Weavers, We are the Web
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: The Alignment List 01/
|Date: 22 Jan 97 15:32:00
EID:d497 22367c00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6ee2b80f
RV>KW>RV>> KW> #holysmoke. (Continued to next message)
RV>KW>RV>DC>Never saw the , at least not in this packet. :(
RV>KW>RV>You expected a women to get it right.??....the 1'st time ?
RV>KW>RV> Dream on.........................
RV>KW>RV> { Harpy shield in place & tested }
RV>KW>RV> [ Pies bounce off/avoid chocolate base materials ]
RV>KW> After all, we're used to dealing with men. We're used
to
RV>KW>things not working on the first try.
RV> === symptom of a female who is now tried of waiting for
RV>male to swill down contaminate pie.
RV>Image: two well lubricated females, fighting in bar just before
RV>closeing time over an oversex male on the prowl.
RV>Results: for less pain, male of < sweetsmile look > should, diverge
RV>path to nearest exit. Max speed is advise for continue life of species.
Now, were did you get the idea that we were fighting over you?
We're just trying to decide how to divide the spoils.
RV>signing off with a Al S.
RV> [not really ]
RV> >=====> and running like HELL out of here >======>
After that, you'd best...
RV>Have a Great Day....Goddess Winter_s_Night....... your chill tonight
RV>is down to -35 C with windchill toss in.
RV>Man-O-Man, your one cool customer, able to send a CHILL down
RV>anyone spine.
Who, me?
RV>[lol]
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Welcome to HolySmoke. You may not like it but WE will.-RH
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Becke the Slave
|Date: 22 Jan 97 15:32:00
EID:5b88 22367c00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3c58ee80
GM>There is none so blind as he who will not see.
And you are the perfect example of that, little slave boy.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * What does a real Witch look like, anyway?
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: NEVER BE GODLY
|Date: 23 Jan 97 15:15:00
EID:0fe3 223779e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 89c22bab
DC>-> On 17 Jan 97 17:16:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Gwenny
The Pooh
DC> GTP>DC> DC>> You seem pretty brassiere of yourself.
DC> GTP>DC> KW>> That's a bra'd indictment.
DC> GTP>DC>> Well, Maiden, you are holding to Form.
DC> GTP>KW> You wouldn't want to say that I was strapped for a reply. Only
if it
DC>was GTP>KW> a long line .
DC> GTP>Of corset.
DC> KW> Only if I boned for it.
DC>Now you are underwiring this list.
It needs some support.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!-LeoX
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: feed
|Date: 23 Jan 97 15:15:00
EID:30c9 223779e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7f6335f7
RC> RC> I just wasn't supposed to give it away to those who didn't
RC> RC> catch on right away. Sorry. Time to fall back on Plan B.
RC> KW> Back to the ladies room, Harpies, it's time to dig out
RC> KW> plan B-RC.
RC>Hmmm. I don't know if I quite like the sound of this.
RC> KW> And I really didn't want to have to do that--it's going to be
RC> KW> so messy. . .
RC>Messy?
Yes, and the stains are so hard to get up afterwards...
RC>I can deal with messy. Some definitely positive possibilities there.
RC>Then again, some potential danger, as well. Proceeding with trepidation.
Just think of it as a rite of passage. ;)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * When a Celt's on the run, be on the lookout for a full
moon!
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: WARRING CHRISTANIC FA
|Date: 23 Jan 97 15:15:00
EID:fc2a 223779e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 802a6726
RH> -=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> RH>There's a big article in today's Camera on the witches of Boulder.
RH> RH>Sounds like we're infested with them....
RH> KW> How many covens make an infestation, and do solitaries count?
RH>Varies with the person asked. The article mentioned gatherings
RH>of 300 or so IIRC.
That's not bad--some pagan gatherings run into the thousands. Is this
300 a guess to how many out of the total population, 300 that are openly
known about, or a gathering of 300 for a fest or event?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * When a Celt's on the run, it's usually from his wife!
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: the pitter-patter of
|Date: 23 Jan 97 15:15:00
EID:4b8a 223779e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org adf178f0
DH> DC>> What's next? Pre-conception baptisms for every egg the woman
DH> DC>> is about to release?
DH> KW> Why not just baptize her belly, and get it over with?
DH>And for 'doubles', her forehead.
DH>I dunno how many times i stood bagging (breathing for) a dead
DH>victim while we waited for the priest to arrive and administer
DH>last rites.
I can guess--Bear's done the same thing many a time.
DH>Once I made the observation that the guy was probably long
DH>gone to the redwood cedar saunas about now, but what happened
DH>if he got last rites and survived? The priest, clearly under
DH>unfamiliar pressure, answered that while he wasn't really sure,
DH>he thought the victim might get extra points.
My father was catholic--as I understood it, only the first time counts,
and after that all that they had to do was a death bed confession. Many
priests will go ahead and administer the rite if they don't know if the
person has received it, under the assumption that even if they had, it
won't hurt anything.
DH>My best interpretation is that 'last rites' is sort of a letter
DH>of introduction. I've since taken to preforming the ritual on
DH>myself whenever I'm feeling particularly inadaquate in any given
DH>day. I figure there ought to be a sizeable file of last-rites
DH>resume's on me by now. Maybe I'll be able to get a job (since I'm
DH>in a one-on-one marriage) evaluating the celibate behaviour of
DH>the priests who have made carreers out of offering critical
DH>advice to married couples.
LOL!!!
DH>Do you suppose there's anyone from heaven contributing
DH>to HolySomke? No? Aw, Gee, looks pretty grim then...
If there is, they've certainly been shy about speaking up about it .
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * When a Celt's on the run, there's damn good reason for
it.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 23 Jan 97 15:15:00
EID:a2f1 223779e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org bf76d243
DC>-> On 17 Jan 97 21:40:06, ROBERT CURRY got back to DAVID WORRELL
DC> RC> It had something to do with twinkies, didn't it? But she's gone
away
DC> RC> for a while. In the meantime, could I interest you in a Steingrobe?
DC>Just what is a "Steingrobe"? Seen his name bandied about here,
DC>but never ran into him on the Echoes.
A "Steingrobe'", also known as a "Steiny", is a hapless, bumbling, but
explosive xtain type fundy. He's known best for taking sudden right
turns in religious hysteria, and getting himself backed into impossibly
prickly corners. At the moment he can't quite make up his mind wither
he wants to play footsies with Rod Swift, or beg Lynda to tie him up and
paddle his naughty little rump until it's pink and glowing.
DC>My guess is that he's a ping-pong ball attempting to play on
DC>a tennis court.
Well, for some reason he finds my web page 'frightening'. Yes, he's
a lightweight.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:8729 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 635566c6
DW>Friday January 17 1997 22:16, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to J.j. Hitt:
DW> KW> them. Gee, it looks like David's about to become the Holysmoke
God of
DW> KW> Sex,
DW>You're not the only God around here. :P
It has not yet been determined if David is the God of Good Sex or the
God of Bad Sex.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Leviticus
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:d1e6 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d6a0de63
DC>-> On 18 Jan 97 14:04:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Ronald
Vass
DC> RV>KW>RV>RS> RS> Because he was feeling a little cross that day?
DC> RV>KW>RV>RS> DC> You nailed that one right on!
DC> RV>KW>RV>RS> RS> Well, just so long as you don't hammer that one home
. . .
DC> RV>KW>RV>RS> ML> One little pun and you run it to the Hilti.
DC> RV>KW>RV>RS> Wood I do something like that?
DC> RV>KW>RV>Depends on the point, your driveing home.
DC> RV>KW>That was tacky!
DC> RV>Only if you frame it.
DC> KW> Screw it!
DC>I can pin it down:
DC>These pun threads are really beginning to be a staple item for you.
That miter have have something to do with it, for I do enjoy the drill.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Why don't they have MOUSE flavored catfood?
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: NEVER BE GODLY
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:0fe3 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 25672b8d
DC> DC> DC> DC> RS> start grabbing breasts when looking for a snack . .
.
DC> DC> DC> DC> MH> Yeah, I'm sure he has a much better cover story than
that
DC>... DC>;-) DC> DC>You seem pretty brassiere of yourself.
DC> DC> DC> KW> That's a bra'd indictment.
DC> DC> DC>Well, Maiden, you are holding to Form.
DC> DC> KW> You wouldn't want to say that I was strapped for a reply. Only
if it
DC> DC> KW> was a long line .
DC> DC>I see you are sporting and have it tied up ti(gh)t.
DC> DC>At least you are not letting it all hang out, or over, at
DC> DC>the case may be.
DC> KW> That was flat. Indeed, it sucked. But, I'll continue to nurse
you
DC> KW> along, no sense in leaving you sagging.
DC>You're just trying to milk this one out. Do I have a choice of
DC>flavors or are they the same on either side?
Only if you're padding this thread that you're skimming. We'll see if
you churn over a new leaf.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Why experiment with animals when we have Rush Limbaugh?
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: symbolism
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:a606 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4bcc6797
DC>-> On 17 Jan 97 17:16:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> GTP> You told us to stop her from eating Twinkies (there's that
DC> DC> GTP> phallic symbol you adore so much).
DC> DC> RC> A Twinkie is a phallic symbol? How about a Little Debbie's snack
DC>cake? DC>Twat symbol are you referring to there, Robert?
DC> KW> A cake and bull story.
DC>Is that an unsteered steer in a bakery? Be heiffer how you answer that!
How kine of you.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Will Rogers never met Rush Limbaugh.....
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Brian Shreve
|Sub: The Alignment List
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:3266 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a51134c5
BS> KW> Actually my daddy was a McIntosh .
BS>Your dad's a McIntosh, I have a friend who is a Peach from Georgia,
BS>and _I_ gotta be some Cracker from Florida. Ah, go figure!
BS> KW> Oh ho, the carefully crafted mystery begins to unravel!
BS>I think I should stop before I endure JJ's wrath. I hadn't a clue I might
BS>have opened a door I knew nothing about. Had I of known. I guess we shall
BS>have to wait till someone else accidentally boo boo's and shows even
more
BS>light on the mystery.
No, no, keep going! BTW, if you have internet access make sure you take
a look at Judith's perspective on JJ
(http://home.concentric.net/~Jbandsma/).
BS> KW> JJ has been our sexless poster, vigorously resisting any attempts
to
BS> KW> 'pull down' hir pants. I was mostly puzzled by what I read
as a
BS>Dunno about JJ, I know him as well as I know anyone here, but I for one
BS>just do not drop the ol pants for just anyone! Why, last time I just
dropped
BS>em to just anyone, I got a needle stick in my sit down place, and
BS>had to say OUCH! (guess I should be thankful, it could have been a
BS>thermometer or worse!) <>
"With a daffodil, sir????"
BS> KW> puzzled to the reference to JJ being married.
BS>Our English language does play tricks upon us, doesn't it?
BS> KW> you also in Houston?
BS>My bod is in Houston, my spirit floats around the heavens, my mind is
in
BS>the mountains and streams in NE Georgia. Anythang else, you'll have to
pry out
BS>of me, under anesthesia, as I can't stand pain.
Done inserted into the file .
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Wink. I'll do the rest.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:7a48 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 91844ded
DC> KW> them. Gee, it looks like David's about to become the Holysmoke
God of
DC> KW> Sex,
DC> DW> You're not the only God around here. :P
DC>I, unlike other gawds of Judeo-xianic origin, am not threatened
DC>by other gods. In fact, I helped elevate one of the other
DC>participants in here into Godhood.
DC>He was Preston Simpson.
DC>He is now: God of TWINKIES!
DC>I do know of a good name for a god when I bestow it!!
DC>Just remember to use his name judiciously between meals.
Are we about to have a religious war--David the Lord of Thin Sex vrs
Preston, God of Twinkies? Where does the Mighty Avatar of the Fishbowl
fit into all this? And who does the Holy Bald Bear represent?
Help! I'm confused! Or is this armageddon (the xtains having missed
the boat over who the warring participants are)?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Witches do it in a spiral.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: the pitter-patter of
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:8717 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e22bfa72
DC>-> On 18 Jan 97 14:04:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> DM> water, to be sure) and baptizes the pup. Should the woman
DC> DC> DM> manage to survive both that ordeal and the birth, she has an
DC> DC>What's next? Pre-conception baptisms for every egg the woman
DC> DC>is about to release?
DC> KW> Why not just baptize her belly, and get it over with?
DC>And, just how do they baptize the each and every sperm that's
DC>going to create a baby? From the way the cult works, that
DC>_is_ baptism for the woman. Or, in the case of Kenny Wiens,
DC>the girl.
Dip their balls in holy water?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * With a god like Jehovah, who needs a Devil?
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:a2f1 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d6ad1f96
DC> DW> I noticed a message in this very echo from him several days ago.
It
DC> DW> seems someone told him about Hamilton's board, and he telnetted
over
DC> DW> there. Oh, joy.
DC>Somehow, I hear this strange sound of steak knives being sharpened.
For Steiny???? "Where's the beef?"
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Woe betide the Priestess who second guesses her Goddess!
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: spam me big boy!
|Date: 23 Jan 97 17:56:00
EID:edeb 22378f00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1f3ee5a7
CJ>CJ>> He's still ranting in R-RELIGION (and I'm still unable to
CJ>CJ>> post there). Among his latest hobby-horses are about AIDS being
CJ>CJ>> God's punishment on homosexuals (yawn; he's getting predictably
CJ>CJ>> torn apart there, albeit in a more polite fashion than here) and
CJ>CJ>> his contention that such movies as _Silence of the Lambs_, the
CJ>CJ>> Star Wars and Star Trek series, and _Jesus Christ Superstar_ are
CJ>CJ>> attacks on Christianity.
CJ> KW>