God Damned Fundies!
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: helpless moron from
|Date: 26 Feb 97 14:57:02
EID:45ac 225a7720
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313debe
* On 23-02-97 at 13:50, CHRISTOPHER HUGHES wrote to DAVID WORRELL,
on the topic of "Re: helpless moron from o" in echo Holysmoke:
CH> RC> I trust you're not indicative of Australians in general. No country
CH> RC> could *possibly* be so characteristically stupid and survive.
CH> No, thankfully he isn't. My fiance's from Australia, and I've been down
CH> there, lived there for six months. Lovely country. Their version of
Pat
CH> Robertson gets laughed at. *grin*
Fred Nile *is* a joke. You take religious conservatives
seriously. We laugh at them.
Rod "...that's the way it works" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * I wanted to be born again but my mother said: "No!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 26 Feb 97 14:59:04
EID:99ab 225a7760
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313df38
* On 23-02-97 at 14:28, DAN CEPPA wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA,
on the topic of "Theft & Catholicism" in echo Holysmoke:
DC> JB> to be able to get this up on Dave Hamilton's board. Starting to
look
DC> JB> like Rod Swift's mail, isn't it?
DC> Not that bad. Besides, Rod is doing a marvelous, simply
DC> marvelous job standing in as a replacement for Al Schroeder!
In what way? I don't speak bullshit, so I'm not a replacement.
Rod "hehehehehe" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Paranoia is *total* awareness!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: A "swiftie"!
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:05:06
EID:2bc9 225a78a0
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e0a2
* On 23-02-97 at 17:57, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to JOHN MUSSELWHITE,
on the topic of "A "swiftie"!" in echo Holysmoke:
LA> JM> THIS from someone (you) who continually bears false
LA> JM> witness against his neighbours? You'll be seeing us all
LA> JM> there, Laurie. God hates liars, don't you know.
LA> Clearly, as things stand, I can see you with a very
LA> large SHOVEL in the process of time!
===========================================================================
BBS: The Perth Omen
Date: 19-01-97 (19:22) Number: 2948
From: ROD SWIFT Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: Appleton Conf: (11) Skeptic
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was from RICK MCFARLANE to ROD SWIFT,
originally in conference Holysmoke
and was forwarded to you by ROD SWIFT.
-------------------------
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Dave Horn <=-
Good morning, Rod.
DH> He sure is. Appleton is among the top three biggest liars in FidoNet.
RS> I'd like a Letterman Top 10 list of Laurie's actions, please God! :)
RS> :)
My nominations for the top ten amusing Appleton "quotes":
10) Forget all those confusing modern scientific papers, check out what
Newsweek said 25 years ago....
9) Popper doesn't know what Popper thinks, but I do!
8) It's not an opinion, it's a fact, and besides, evolution is based on
opinions just like it!
7) Just say no to Flouride!
6) It's too small a change to be evolution. No, it's too big a change to
be evolution. No it's too small. Too big. Too small....
5) Evolution is a religion, just like Creationism.
4) Creationism is science, just like Evolution.
3) Just say no to vaccination!
2) You seem to have the absurd opinion that winning a debate proves one's
case. And Creationists always win debates.
1) Velikovski is smarter than Newton.
Yep. He's said all those things. And more.
Take care.
... Celibacy is not hereditary. - Guy Goden
___ AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
* OLX 2.1 TD * I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
___ Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Hey fundie! Why can't your mind be as open as your mouth?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: Sandra Peake -O'boy-
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:07:08
EID:a278 225a78e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e11c
* On 22-02-97 at 13:40, RONALD VASS wrote to JAN DEBOER,
on the topic of "Sandra Peake -O'boy-" in echo Holysmoke:
RV> > RV> You are dealing with a rouge J.W. fundy.
RV> JD>Oh. In that case, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Sandra!
RV> JD> MERRY CHRISTMAS, Sandra!
RV> JD> HAPPY NEW YEAR, Sandra.
RV> JD> HAPPY ST.Valentines DAY, Sandra!
RV> I wasn't even going to pick on her, just drop a hint to
RV> the Swift Rod of truth, or that pagen, Smithing Richard. Just
RV> so they could have a hammering good time. Lets the blows fall
RV> where they may.
Well, next time don't be so obfuscating :)
Rod "....heheehehe" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Satanic: Anything a fundie Christian doesn't like
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Websites Etc.
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:14:10
EID:d8b9 225a79c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e2c2
* On 21-02-97 at 14:55, DAVID RICE wrote to DARRYL GONZALEZ,
on the topic of "Websites Etc." in echo Holysmoke:
DR> >>DG> to point you towards a right relationship to
DR> >>DG> God[sic] & encourage you along the
DR> >DR> Please tell your god I am not a homosexual and that
DR> >DR> he will just have to look elsewhere for his
DR> >DR> "relationships." Thank you.
DR> DG> Shows again that you don't even have a clue as to what
DR> DG> I'm talking about.
DR> Wrong. It shows that YOU have no idea what YOU are talking
DR> about. Keep your anal fantasies to yourself, please. I do
DR> not want a "personal relationship" with the supernatural
DR> boyfriend.
ROFL!. I like you, David. You bend them over, and shove the
enema pipe right up the Christonazis, before giving it to them
and washing away the shit in their brains. It's fun to watch :)
:) Wahoo! :)
DR> DG> First of all, God[sic] deplores homosexuality
DR> Then why did god make homosexuals? Sheeeish: are you
DR> really this stupid?
DR> Much recent study has gone into the biological causes of
DR> homosexuality. Richard Pillard believes there is a
DR> definite hereditary aspect to homosexuality and that he is
DR> uniquely qualified to search for it as he, his brother,
DR> his sister and probably his father are gay, and he has a
DR> bi-sexual daughter. (Burr 1993:60)
Did you know the NIH is now recruiting gay men who have brothers
to participate in a study of their brothers and genetic patterns,
especially to compare a few genetic markers they suspect may
cause homosexual sexual orientation.
They are hoping that the research will show that a predominance
of the gay men have the genes, and if their brothers are gay, that
these genes and if their brothers are NOT gay, that the brothers
do NOT have the genes -- thereby isolating a genetic combination
that may prove to lead to homosexual sexual orientation or a
propensity to be gay.
DR> In recent studies Dick Swaab of the Netherlands Institute
DR> for Brain Research, reported in 1990 that "the
DR> suprachiasmatic nucleus [in the hypothalamus] was nearly
DR> twice as large in homosexual men as it was in heterosexual
DR> men" (Burr 1993:52). These tests follow on the heels of
DR> tests by Roger Gorski on the hypothalamus of rats which
DR> showed that these same cells were "five times larger in
DR> volume in the male rat than in the female" (ibid) Further
DR> tests were carried out by Simon Levay of the Salk
DR> Institute who states "the discovery that a nucleus differs
DR> in size between heterosexual and homosexual men
DR> illustrates that sexual orientation in humans is amenable
DR> to study at the biological level." (Parsons 1980:55)
This is probably all going over the head of the fundy, as they
"don't do science". It gets in the way of their belief system.
DR> DG> calling it a sin and an abomination at various places
DR> DG> in the Bible.
DR> Sorry, no. Ignorant, long-dead, savage Hebrews called
DR> male homosexuality "an abomination." Female homosexuality
DR> is okay since it isn't mentioned. Thank god for lesbians.
Lesbians are also God's chosen ones. They have succumbed the
least to HIV infection :) Speaking of which, God sent a very
evil pestilence. At first, the ignorant hets thought it was sent
to kill the fags, until they realised it was also to kill them
even *moreso* for *their* hypocritical judgement and sexual
mores. :) :) That's if you subscribe to their "God made HIV to
kill gays" theory :)
DR> DG> Secondly, the type of relationship I was referring to
DR> DG> is a father/children type, where He[sic] is the father
DR> DG> and we are the children.
DR> I have a father, thank you. I do not need an imaginary
DR> surrogate. It is quite telling, Darryl, of your
DR> relationship with your real father since you have felt the
DR> need to make a fantasy one. What did your real father do
DR> to you to make you turn to fantasy for paternal approval?
His dad probably was Christian, ergo, deprived poor little Darryl
of love, because men aren't supposed to be "emotional".
DR> By the way: there is evidence that Jesus was homosexual.
Much, from his own lips, in John :)
DR> This is quite possible since he was Helenized. His lover
DR> may have been the youth Lazarus, as one of the early
DR> Gospel According to Mark claims.
Or the one from John... :)
Rod "...hehehehe" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * When in trouble or in doubt, run around, scream & shout!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:16:12
EID:bb28 225a7a00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e33c
* On 24-02-97 at 07:32, DAVID RICE wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
DR> >KY> And notice, I say, homosexuality, and not homosexuals,
DR> >KY> as there is a big difference.
DR> And notice I said black skin, and not black people: as there
DR> is a big difference.
Yes, there is.... *guffaw* *grin*
DR> MG> Tell us what the difference is, Jelly. How does your
DR> MG> stinking god punish homosexuality without punishing
DR> MG> homosexuals.
DR> Same way they butchered the "witches" during the
DR> Inquisition: the Christian cult finds them guilty, and
DR> they leave it up to the government to execute them. It
DR> worked for The Holy Office; it will work for "Pat"
DR> Robertson.
You have seen what some of the religious conservatives have
espoused for gays as a solution, and the parallels to Hitler's
Jewish solution, don't you?
Rod "...including the tattooing of gays with pink triangles on
their hands or foreheads" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Rap is to music what Etch-a-Sketch is to art
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:17:14
EID:4c76 225a7a20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e37a
* On 17-02-97 at 12:19, DOUG LEE wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT" in echo Holysmoke:
DL> RH> So burn homosexuality in Hell, not homosexuals.
DL> KY> Just because gays will go to Hell, does not mean they aren't loved.
DL> Is Kenny here trying to blow up the FAQ from overload or something??
He's probably desperately trying to get an invite for one of us
men to let him blow us, it seems :) :)
Rod "...he's begging for it, you can just tell" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Famous graffitti: I used to be indecisive; am I sure?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:20:16
EID:9a0b 225a7a80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e430
* On 23-02-97 at 00:15, KEN YOUNG wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> mg> Tell us what the difference is, Jelly. How does your stinking
KY> mg> god punish homosexuality without punishing homosexuals.
KY> FR> Answer the question, Jelly.
KY> Gays will go to Hell if they are not saved, and if you are
KY> gay, you cannot be saved.
You claim that gays cannot be saved. Why do you attempt to? Are
you admitting they have no free will because they cannot be saved?
Is this a revision of your policy that they can change? Are you
now admitting you were wrong, and they *cannot change* and *be
saved*?
KY> Now, the difference is simply the difference between the person and
one's
KY> actions. Just because I am against what a person does,
KY> does not mean I am against that person.
But you said gays are unable to be saved. You also said you were
talking about the sin, not the sinner. It's clear you are lying.
Rod "...you should leave, now, while you still have a chance" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Bugger me with a fish fork!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:22:18
EID:74cb 225a7ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e4aa
* On 23-02-97 at 11:11, MARK O'NEILL wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
MO> KY> The choice I made was to go by what I naturally am, and not rebel
MO> KY> against my nature.
MO> An idiot.
MO> KY> I think you just hit upon it. "Consciously" seems to be the key.
See,
MO> KY> while some are conscience doing it, gays may subconsciously make
the
MO> KY> choice to be homosexual. We make choices all the time without
MO> KY> realizing it. And throughout your life, what happens to you, will
also
MO> KY> be a big factor in the what choices you make.
MO> ROTFL!!!!
MO> <5 minutes later and still laughing maniacally> Fuck he cracks me up.
:-)
MO> Oh dear. This has gotta be kept for the archives! ;-)
MO> ... "gays may subconsciously make the choice to be homosexual" - Ken
Young
The ironic thing is that each time we debunk him, he comes up
with a new theory, as if he were desperate to actually have one
that he might be able to put over us.
I assure you, he will not succeed. :)
Rod "...every 'theory' he comes up with has either been espoused
by his kind before and been debunked, or supports the biblical
view in one way or another on sexual orientation, which has been
debunked." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't get stuck in a closet. Wear yourself out.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:23:20
EID:74fa 225a7ae0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e4e8
* On 23-02-97 at 11:14, MARK O'NEILL wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
MO> AH>> When blacks, women, Jews, gays, and other such
MO> AH>> inferiors, heathens and deviants were kept in their
MO> AH>> proper place, I suppose.
MO> KY> Sorry to see that you consider them as inferiors. Perhaps you
should
MO> KY> work on being more tolerant of others. :)
I'm sorry you see gays as inferior, Ken. Perhaps you should work
on being more tolerant towards others.
Besides being more tolerant, being more understanding and
KNOWLEDGEABLE of the people you see as inferior is mandatory in
finding a solution for your illogical hatred.
Rod "...bye Ken, you tosser" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Yahweh (n): not *my* way
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:25:22
EID:c069 225a7b20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e562
* On 21-02-97 at 23:45, SALLY SPRINGETT wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
SS> KY> I think you just hit upon it. "Consciously" seems to be the
SS> KY> key. See, while some are conscience doing it, gays may
SS> KY> subconsciously make the choice to be homosexual. We make
SS> KY> choices all the time without realizing it. And throughout
SS> KY> your life, what happens to you, will also be a big factor in
SS> KY> the what choices you make.
SS> To suggest that _anyone_ (as a kid) would, or could,
SS> "subconsciously" choose an infinitely more difficult life is nuts.
It's also debunked. He's also making up all these "theories"
about sexual orientation with a biased viewpoint -- that each
"theory" he creates must be biblically-correct.
Rod "...and hence they are usually scientifically-incorrect" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * I take my pet lion to church every Sunday. He has to eat!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: You won't believe this q
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:27:24
EID:3128 225a7b60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e5dc
* On 22-02-97 at 23:27, KEN YOUNG wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "You won't believe this qu" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> FR> If one's religion is a choice, so is his sexual orientation.
KY> FR> Just because gays will go to Hell, does not mean they aren't
KY> FR> loved. - Ken Young
KY> FR> To all you Christians: He's one of yours.
KY> Thank you for repeating my words of wisdom..
But haven't you recanted that "theory" and now claim it's a
subconscious choice (i.e. yet ANOTHER "theory" that has been
debunked before, and I have now debunked thoroughly)?
KY> Just one tiny bit of my brilliance that everyone should realize.
The thing that everyone should realise is that you are a hateful
idiot.
KY> Just because someone will have an unfortunate eternity,
KY> does not mean you love them any less.
Oh, excuse me. I thought the bible says that you had no right to
make such judgements. Then again, when you're a salad-bar
Christian who can't even read and understand the bible, or that
you flip-flop over Leviticus, what makes me want to believe you
are a "true Christian" at all?
Rod "...the only think you are is a 'true moron', Ken" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Rutabaga: Lord of the vegies
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: For you!
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:29:26
EID:76ad 225a7ba0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e656
* On 23-02-97 at 00:15, KEN YOUNG wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> to be against homosexuality? And notice, I say,
KY> KY> homosexuality, and not homosexuals, as there is a big
KY> KY> difference.
KY> mg> Tell us what the difference is, Jelly. How does your stinking
KY> mg> god punish homosexuality without punishing homosexuals.
KY> FR> Answer the question, Jelly.
KY> Gays will go to Hell if they are not saved, and if you are
KY> gay, you cannot be saved.
For the quote file, Fred. He states gays cannot be saved, and if
they are not saved, they go to Hell.
Hence, they are predestined to go to Hell by God without using
any free-will whatsoever. He's a loon!
Rod "...just in case you didn't get it!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Borg Express -- don't be assimilated without it!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:30:28
EID:74fa 225a7bc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e694
* On 23-02-97 at 11:25, KEN YOUNG wrote to DAVID WORRELL,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Yes, when gays kept it quiet, it was much better. They were still
KY> KY> around, but who needs to advertise their sexual orientation? And,
at
KY> DW> Have you ever kissed your girlfriend/wife in public?
KY> DW> Have you ever held hands with her? Why did you feel the
KY> DW> need to advertise your sexual orientation like that?
KY> That IMO would not be promoting sexual orientation.
...except when homosexual people do it, right?
KY> But, many gays do cause scenes about their lifestyle, and
KY> often make a point of people knowing they are gay, without
KY> any reason.
Please give examples of these "scenes" that you claim exist.
And what reasons did you have to justify your heterosexual
displays besides personal choice?
Rod "...and why can't personal choice apply to us?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Satanic: Anything a fundie Christian doesn't like
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:31:30
EID:ed39 225a7be0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e6d2
* On 23-02-97 at 11:15, KEN YOUNG wrote to MARILYN BURGE,
on the topic of "You forgot to answer this" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> MB> You're kidding yourself. I've seen many a fundy come and go during
KY> MB> my time here. I've even seen fundies 'converted' to agnosticism.
KY> MB> I've only seen one person 'converted' the other direction, and
he
KY> MB> went from secular Jew to practicing Jew -- hardly a direction you
KY> MB> would recommend, I'm sure.
KY> Nope.. Now, if they switched to Messianic Jew, on the
KY> other hand, that would be another story..
KY> And anyway, I am here now.. HolySmoke will never be the same. :)
You'll leave soon enough :) You'll also whine on the way out
claiming you weren't treated fairly, when in fact it is because
you were writing out "reality cheques" that bounced when they
entered reality and were examined by all and sundry :)
Rod "...trust us, you will" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Accept Jesus as my Saviour? Why, that'd be selfish!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: helpless moron from oz
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:35:32
EID:6f6e 225a7c60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e7c4
* On 23-02-97 at 11:56, MARK O'NEILL wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
on the topic of "helpless moron from oz" in echo Holysmoke:
[about Laurie Appleton....]
MO> RC> I trust you're not indicative of Australians in general. No country
MO> RC> could *possibly* be so characteristically stupid and survive.
MO> Yes, it's an uphill battle. ;-) I don't want anything to do with the
MO> clown. We have our fair share of fundies over here and although it's
not
MO> quite as bad as the US (from my perspective at least), it certainly
seems
MO> to be getting there. :-(
MO> Talking to a fella at work the other day who drinks and cavorts around
the
MO> countryside (yes, he's a christian), and he has a real hatred for gays
MO> saying that he's sick of having gay rights shoved down his throat.
(You
MO> may know of the gay mardi-gras we have over here every year). When
I
MO> mentioned I was tired of having seemingly endless televangilists spreading
MO> the good word and expecting me to believe such a chunk of shit he became
MO> quite irate and proceeded to swear profusely, after which he packed
up his
MO> bat and ball and left. Funny the way christians behave at times.
Here's an even funnier example. You know about the group
TasAlert? The homophobic group that spread around leaflets not
unlike those the people in the US see from the likes of Fred
Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church....
... Well now they are claiming that Sydney Mardi Gras is a
"massacre waiting to happen" and the only way that people can
solve this problem is for "queers to get back in the closet and
shut up and cancel the parade".
Of course, we wouldn't want to comment on their agenda, nor the
fact that they are playing "blame the victim" rather than condemn
any such attacker -- who would probably come right from their
own hate-inspired ranks!
I cannot believe they have the gall that we have to restrict our
freedoms due to the problem that they unleashed!
Rod "...ironic, eh?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Bigots: those who confuse personal tastes with morality
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: In the news
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:37:34
EID:b339 225a7ca0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313e83e
* On 24-02-97 at 19:05, STEVE QUARRELLA wrote to DAVID WORRELL,
on the topic of "In the news" in echo Holysmoke:
SQ> Heard about the "Army of God" taking responsibility for the
SQ> bombing of an abortion clinic and a gay bar. Someone, hunt
SQ> these motherfuckers down and try them for "war crimes."
SQ> Either that or send them up to the Empire State Building to
SQ> be "tour guides." And these Fundy fucks wonder why we're
SQ> so opposed to their -horseshit- in our schools.
I reposted the articles here from AP and Reuters.
The worst thing is that they leave a second bomb around to get
the emergency workers. That is really sick. That's *domestic
terrorism*. I hope they get to fry in the electric chair.
Rod "...they deserve no less than to meet their fucking maker" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * That was Zen... This is Tao!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Rat finds Food at End of
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:50:36
EID:e338 225a7e40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313eb4c
* On 24-02-97 at 00:17, DAVE HAMILTON wrote to RICHARD SMITH,
on the topic of "Rat finds Food at End of" in echo Holysmoke:
DH> A 59-year-old Catholic Priest has been charged with Child
DH> Molestation over incidents occurring between 1991 and 1993.
DH> The parents originally reported the item to officials in
DH> the Church, where they were assured that the issue would
DH> be dealt with.
DH> However it was dealt with, the police were never notified,
DH> the pastor still has his position. He has NOW been charged
DH> by police.
As I said, the first thing religionists want is special
protections against prosecution -- this being one of them.
Rod "...I hope the priest spends the rest of his life as Bobo's
new 'wife' in jail" Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * Any milk can make cheese. Here, have some gerbil cheese.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Murderous Christians
|Date: 26 Feb 97 15:52:38
EID:1427 225a7e80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313ebc6
* On 21-02-97 at 15:21, DAVID RICE wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Murderous Christians" in echo Holysmoke:
DR> I can produce, at a moments notice, several documented
DR> cases of Christians who have reciently rape, murdered,
DR> and tortured people. Hell, I've already done so and sent
DR> the facts you you. You are just too goddamned stupid to
DR> accept the Truth.
The most important cases have occurred in GEORGIA this month...
The case of the Georgia exorcism I sent Brother Fredric, and the
case this week of the gay nightclub bombing in Atlanta.
Rod "...more examples of Christian domestic terrorism" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Death is life's answer to the question "Why?"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 26 Feb 97 16:20:40
EID:f07c 225a8280
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313f258
* On 22-02-97 at 23:13, KEN YOUNG wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Atheism is not, not having a religious belief, it is
KY> KY> specifically not believing in God, IOW making a choice to not
KY> KY> believe. A baby has not made that choice yet, so he cannot be
KY> KY> an atheist.
KY> FR> Everyone is born not believing in deity constructs,
KY> FR> Ken. Occultism and superstitious fear and hatred must
KY> FR> be ingrained in an individual before they start
KY> FR> believing in deity constructs.
KY> How do you know a baby doesn't have any belief in a god?
Why do you claim that they do?
KY> Unless you have spoken with a baby first hand, and asked,
KY> there is no way you could no.
Why do you claim by default that they are religious?
Is this the same sort of claptrap that you present that everyone
is born straight?
KY> Before someone believes in a diety, they must be full of
KY> hate? I am sure many people, of many faiths besides even
KY> Christian ones, would strongly disagree with that.
Most notably me. I only believe that the ones with a patriachal
deity construct of love *and* hate could only be believed in by
someone who wishes to claim that they love everyone, but in fact
wish to only judge other humans.
Rod "...to make up for the pathetic and pitiful life they have
had in their past..." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Train stations are where trains stop, so workstations...
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying example
|Date: 26 Feb 97 16:23:42
EID:7d13 225a82e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313f30e
* On 23-02-97 at 00:25, KEN YOUNG wrote to JASON HARMON,
on the topic of "Re: Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> I hope you do get saved and see me in Heaven.
What makes you so sure that you are going to wind up in such a
place? Your judgements, hatreds, ignorance, and lies have
predestined you :)
Rod "...and that's from your performance in here over the past
two weeks. Better start praying for some forgiveness, and ask
for some forgiveness from us... Else you can just be an arrogant
asshole and leave us and seek self-delusionary requests for
salvation for your sins that you have perpetrated here..." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Psychic convention cancelled due to unforeseen problems
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 26 Feb 97 16:29:44
EID:74fa 225a83a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313f478
* On 23-02-97 at 00:32, KEN YOUNG wrote to JASON HARMON,
on the topic of "Re: Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Seems that when this was more of a Christian society, things were
a
KY> KY> lot better.
KY> JH> When exactly was this more of a Christian society? When we were
KY> JH> killing witches? When we were accusing people of being "godless
KY> JH> communists"? When children were made to pray in schools?
KY> No to the first one, yes to the other two.. Just because
KY> some Christians killed people that supposedly were witches
KY> (most weren't, as it was all political), does not mean the
KY> whole Christian church would be for it.
So it's ok to falsely accuse people of witchcraft and then to
kill them? How wonderfully loving and Christian of you.
KY> I see nothing wrong with saying that some are "godless
KY> communists." If they are, then they should be exposed.
Exposed for what? Communism is a valid form of political
ideology. Just because you don't believe in it does not mean you
have the right to exterminate people based on political ideology.
KY> And while now, I don't think we could ever go back to prayer
KY> in school, there was a time when it was fine.
You're obviously ignorant. Did you see the Christian woman who
sued the local school board only in the past two years? Her
small-town "Christian neighbours" have harrassed her and bashed
her kids, and claimed they were "atheists".
All because she actually believes in the bible and the passage
that states quite clearly that one should not pray in public.
KY> Seemed to have worked fine.
Seemed, but actually did not.
KY> Kids were a lot more educated back then.
The reason why kids aren't well educated now is because of
defunding of education. Not removal of superstition. In fact,
with the removal of superstition, we could compare current
education with education in the 1920s when creationism was
instructed in the class...
... We've improved a lot by banning religious instruction or
education or ritual on school campuses.
KY> But since we took prayer out of the schools, the students
KY> have been doing a lot worse.
Any proof that proves a causal link between the two? I'd suggest
that the defunding of education on a per-capita student basis is
the real reason.
Rod "...of course, you'd probably not see this" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Mud thrown is ground lost
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Why do you NEED to b
|Date: 26 Feb 97 16:30:46
EID:8b91 225a83c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313f4b6
* On 23-02-97 at 00:38, KEN YOUNG wrote to JASON HARMON,
on the topic of "Re: Why do you NEED to be" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Also, and this is not proof, but rather an interesting possibility,
KY> KY> there have been many to say they heard torturous screams of agony
when
KY> KY> they dug too deep in the earth.. Now, if that is
KY> KY> so, could it be Hell?
KY> Keep in mind, I made it very clear it was a POSSIBILITY,
KY> not a fact. Besides, the sounds that some heard in the
KY> earth, was reported two different times by the mainstream
KY> media.
The wonderful thing about the secular world is that frauds are
exposed -- something the religious world holds as truth even after
their frauds are exposed.
It should be reproducable on demand. Is it?
Rod "...you're a moron, Ken" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Do unto others, often.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: READING INCOMPREHENS
|Date: 26 Feb 97 16:33:48
EID:6a19 225a8420
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313f56c
* On 23-02-97 at 00:44, KEN YOUNG wrote to JASON HARMON,
on the topic of "Re: READING INCOMPREHENSI" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> The rumors about P&G being a front for Satanism likely are false.
Not only likely, but they have sued the people who spread the lie
-- Amway started it :)
Isn't Amway fundie-led? :)
KY> ANd when I say we created diseases, I simply mean that by
KY> not following biblical principles, we have set a path for
KY> ourselves, which includes disease.
Oh, really? Evidence?
KY> JH> Where would this "place" be?
KY> Uh, does the word "Hell," ring a bell? :)
Hell is in Norway. It is very cold, unlike the bible's rendition
of it. Another example of your bible being wrong.
KY> KY> Oh, but you don't truly take responsibility for your actions.. You
KY> KY> And I do not blame God or Satan for our problems. In fact, I have
KY> KY> been saying all along, that our problems, are the fault of mankind.
KY> JH> Even though God knew we would do these things and created us
KY> JH> anyway.
KY> So we would have free will.
But why do we have free will? If I were to invent something, I'd
invent it with a clearly defined programming and purpose, and
WITHOUT the ability to rebel.
There is no logical function for free will in any creation. Why
doesn't V'Ger fix the carbon units?
Rod "...you work it out, Ken." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Teeth : Array [1..32] of Byte;
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: USA CompuCensor Law
|Date: 26 Feb 97 16:34:50
EID:d612 225a8440
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313f5aa
* On 23-02-97 at 03:51, KEN YOUNG wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "USA CompuCensor Law" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> > THE CDA DISASTER NETWORK
KY> FR> Did they use TANKS, dear?
KY> A bit obsessive, aren't we? :) Oh, but that's right..
KY> You have a hard time moving onto something else..
Do you care to give us your spin on Waco?
After all, Christians love to spin-doctor.
Rod "...go on... tell us!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * If this is reality I want a refund!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 26 Feb 97 16:51:52
EID:556a 225a8660
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3313f9a8
* On 23-02-97 at 14:18, STEVE QUARRELLA wrote to DAVID RICE,
on the topic of "READING INCOMPREHENSION" in echo Holysmoke:
SQ> Salue, DAVID!
SQ> Veneris dies February 21 1997, Dixit DAVID RICE ad STEVE QUARRELLA:
SQ> DR> I like the one that says something like "At football games
SQ> DR> you can always see some rainbow-haired person holding a
SQ> DR> sign that reads 'Origin of Species, Pg 316.'"
SQ> Ever see the Married With Children episode where Al took the NO MA'AM
SQ> organization onto Jerry Springer's show? There was a guy
SQ> in the front row wearing a NO MA'AM shirt and a rainbow
SQ> wig, holding up the John 3:16 sign." Quite literally fell
SQ> out of my chair.
It ran as a repeat here two days ago :) :)
SQ> Anyways, why DOESN'T someone wear a rainbow wig to a
SQ> football game and hold up such a sign? Suzy and I are
SQ> going to see the Saints next year, and I'd be more than
SQ> happy to do it. :)
Well, maybe Patrick, Dale Ann the Devious, Chris and I could do
the big sheet message at an IHL game in Houston :) :)
"ORIGIN OF THE SPECIES, page 316"
Rod "...how about it, Patrick?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The universe's most common elements: Hydrogen & Stupidity
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: More Christian nuts
|Date: 02 Mar 97 11:46:54
EID:ccbd 22625dc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3318f82e
08:23 PM ET 02/25/97
House member criticizes ``Schindler's List'' airing
WASHINGTON (Reuter) - A Republican member of Congress
Tuesday criticized NBC television's showing of the Holocaust
movie ``Schindler's List,'' saying its airing during Sunday
family time should outrage parents.
Rep. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma was quoted in a release put out
by his Oklahoma office as saying the airing of the highly
acclaimed film took network television ``to an all-time low,
with full frontal nudity, violence and profanity being shown in
our homes.''
His criticism brought a response from Sen Alfonse D'Aamto, a
New York Republican, who told the Senate Coburn's statement
was ``shocking.''
``To equate the nudity of the Holocaust victims in the
concentration camp with any sexual connotations is outrageous
and offensive,'' D'Amato said.
Coburn, co-chairman of the Congressional Family Caucus, said
that while the film was given a rating for mature adult
audiences, ``the fact that it aired on public television on a
Sunday evening during a family time should outrage parents and
decent-minded individuals everywhere.''
He added: ``I cringe when I realize that there were children
all across this nation watching this program. They were exposed
to the violence of multiple gunshot head wounds, vile language,
full frontal nudity and irresponsible sexual activity.
``It simply should not have been allowed on public
television.''
Coburn said the airing of the movie demonstrated that the
new TV rating system ``only encourages more sex and violence.''
In a later statement, the congressman said this issue was
whether it was appropriate for young children to see the
violence and nudity in the movie.
``Schindler's List,'' he said ``was an excellent and
informative program that should not have been aired on a
network'' when it could have been watched by children.
* OLX 2.1 TD * If you choke a Smurf, what colour does it turn?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: A quote for you
|Date: 02 Mar 97 11:51:56
EID:9e9e 22625e60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3318f95c
You know how I have this theory about needing a "good enemy" so that
one may raise a good army of "onward Christian soldiers", and that
the enemy changes from minority to minority while propaganda about
a minority's threat to the majority can be spread? Well, here's an
interesting quote for you :) :)
"For centuries, dominant groups in society have used the 'they're
after your kids' myth to marginalize subdominant groups. The
stories change, but the pattern is always the same. In 19th-century
Russia, Jews were supposedly after Christian children to use their
blood in the Passover Seder, a convenient fiction which was used to
justify pogroms by the Christian majority; in early-20th-century
America, the need to protect the sanctity of young white females
was used as a pretext for the lynching of twelve hundred black men
between 1900 and 1940; and today, the far Right ignores statistics
that show heterosexual men (not gay men, not straight women, not
lesbians) are the disproportionate majority of child sexual abusers..."
-- Kevin Jennings, founder of the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Teachers
Network (GLSTN), in the anthology "One Teacher in Ten" [Alyson
Publications, 1994]
* OLX 2.1 TD * Martyrdom: The only way someone becomes famous -- Shaw
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Murderous Christians
|Date: 02 Mar 97 00:37:26
EID:46ac 226204a0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33191216
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 33181e5f
DR> Jonestown: the Fundamentalist Christian preacher who ran
DR> the join, Rev. Jim Jones, was once an Assemblies of God
DR> minister who later became a Children of God minister. He
DR> and his Christian upper management goons poisioned and /
DR> or shot over 900 people, 300 of which were children. In
DR> fact, most were gunned down. I have the photographs of
DR> the bodies.
KY> I know, the autopsy reports say the same thing. But was it Jim
KY> Jones that killed them? Especially since he died of gun shot
KY> wounds himself..
DM> He mixed the Kool-Aid; he gave the orders to drink and the
DM> orders to the guards to shoot the nondrinkers. It addition to the
DM> autopsy reports, we also have the tapes of all this. For an
DM> additional layer of responsibility, he is the one who persuaded all
DM> those people to go to Guyana in the first place.
Well then, there must have been a whole lot of nondrinkers, including himself.
I will however, agree with you about him being responsible, as he was who
persuaded them to go there. But he was not the only one to blame. Let's
face it, he did not force them to go. They went there on their own, as
stupid as it may have been.
KY> I have never denied that some that CLAIM to be Christian, have
KY> committed violent acts, but those acts would go so much against
KY> Christian beliefs that they could not be Christians.
DM> What _else_ does anybody have to go on, but the claims of the
DM> person involved regarding his beliefs? Put another way, what makes
DM> _your_ claims of being a Christian preferable to those of anyone
DM> else?
DOn't go by what group they claim to be part of. Rather, go by what specific
beliefs they claim to have.
If what I say does not measure up to the gospel, then I am not a Christian.
If it does, then I am. Pretty simple.
JH> I trust you never hug, kiss, flirt, dance, and/or hold hands
JH> with a woman in public. After all, you said above no one needs
JH> to advertise their sexual orientation.
KY> That's not what I mean by "advertise." I mean specifically try to
KY> advance a pro gay agenda.
DM> But THAT, dimbulb, is _not_ a sexual activity: it is a political
DM> one.
True, but it is a political activity promoting a sexual one.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 02 Mar 97 00:46:04
EID:807f 226205c0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 3319141c
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 1608c8f4
KY>Then, I take it, you deny that any homosexuals chose to be gay?
KS> All you have to do, Jelly, is find one.
Well, would a bisexual do? As much as I hate it, I do have a friend who
is rethinking her views on sexuality, and has said she is now a bisexual.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 02 Mar 97 13:11:26
EID:dcbe 22626960
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 3319c2ce
REPLY: 1:229/622 33185ca9
KY> If that is what the people want, fine.. As long as it is more on the
KY> local or state level, and not federal..
DH> . Just so long as you don't have to accept it, right? So it's
DH> OK for a woman in one state to have choices but not in the next state?
DH> What, then, is the point of remaining a country? Dollars?
Beats me, I have always been more for state rights, myself.
Hey, if you don't like how an area is doing things, just leave. Sounds
like a good idea to me.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Mormonism IS Christianit
|Date: 02 Mar 97 13:13:16
EID:f555 226269a0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 3319c33c
REPLY: 1:229/622 33185d76
KY> And I will assume you have evidence that a militia was involved?
DH> The only evidence so far is the accused bomber's admission that
DH> he did it and that he was a militia member, from whence he received
DH> the training necessary to blow up the building. That he chose to
DH> do it when it was most populated, rather than in the middle of
DH> the night, indicates he was intending to be as violent as possible.
And this is according to who? Some guy on the internet. Just because one
person makes some calims, does not make it so.
If he has made such an admission, than why does he and his lawyers deny
it?
No, he never said he was a militia member. The only thing people could
find to connect him to them, is that he had publications agreeing with their
general viewpoints.
Okay, why would he do it, anyway? If it was an act against the govt., one
measly government building certainly wouldn't bring change or anything.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 02 Mar 97 13:17:22
EID:a57d 22626a20
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 3319c432
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 331781c6
ky> AH, but shouldn't something become law, if that is
ky> what the majority of the public truly wants?
RS> The majority of people in this country want legalized
RS> abortion. So it's okay?
First, show me that the majority wants this. I do not believe there has
been a vote on this yet. Until then, your notion that the majority is pro-death,
is just a figment of your imagination.
Second, I do not believe what the majority wants should be federal law,
just local and maybe state.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Chlorinating Christians
|Date: 02 Mar 97 13:27:52
EID:cdfc 22626b60
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 3319c6a8
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 3313694a
Jd> We don't go to church, but christianity is like a disease that wants
to
Jd> spread. It wants to elbow its way into our schools, hospitals, places
of
Jd> employment. So, like treating our drinking water against cholera, we
Jd> must keep the Chrisitan mind infection at bay.
Hmm.. Interesting.. Didn't Hitler say similar things, referrring to what
he saw as "undesirables" as an illness society had to be cured of?
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: Rowan Atkinson
|Date: 02 Mar 97 17:15:52
EID:a161 226289e0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 3319b62c
PID: GED3 2.5
Kevin McKenzie sent me this. I thought some of you might enjoy it.
--cut--
Oh, I was watching Comedy Central last week, and they had a great Rowan
Atkinson sketch act, one of which was him as the Devil, dealing with the
damned right after Judgement Day. It went as follows:
"OK, all you adulterers, please step forward. My, there sure are alot of
you, aren't there? Well, form to lines, male and female. You males, line
up over there by the little guillotine.
"The French? Are the French here? Good, good. Step over there by the
Germans. I'm sure you have a lot to talk about.
"Atheists? Atheists, please step forward. I bet you all feel like a right
bunch of ninnies, don't you?
"And finally, Christians. Are the Christians here? Sorry, but it turns
out the Jews *were* right. Tough luck, that.
"Well, enjoy your stay here. Now Adolf, you take over . . . "
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Millennium Lunacy
|Date: 01 Mar 97 08:23:14
EID:5330 226142e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 0bc91678
REPLY: 1:123/67 3315be68
On 27 Feb 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> JB>> irrationality of the claimee.
SS> SS>> Do I celebrate a birthday for my 6 mo. old grandchild? How many
SS> SS>> years old is he, John?
JB> One-half.
SS> No, John. He is ZERO years old.
Granted. Now, does that mean that he is inside his "zeroeth" year, his
"year zero," or inside his _first_ year, his "year one?"
I have a box and a pile of dimes. I pick up a dime and put it in the
box. I'm asked "how many dollars have you in the box?" I say either
"none" (zero), or I say some fraction; "one tenth of a dollar."
My questioner says "I don't care about the fractions, so you have zero
dollars in the box." I agree. I ask him "so what number dollar am I
building up in the box?" He says, "the zeroeth dollar."
I ask "what number dollar will be in there when I've finished putting
the zeroeth dollar's dimes in there? He says, "the first."
I say, where'd the "zeroeth dollar" go?
He stares in utter lack of comprehension, I laugh myself silly,
and the guy gets huffy and leaves.
Anybody get it yet? There is no "zero year," no "zero dollar," no "zero
hour." There can be _zero_yearS_, but not _A_ 'zero year.'
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Reality-ometer: [......../] .....eeeee-YES!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 371/42 377/86
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 01 Mar 97 08:38:25
EID:0f67 226144c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 9ab69586
On 26 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
JB> Roger, "0.5" is _obviously_ not "0.0." You are not "zero years old"
JB> at six months, you are "zero _complete_ years old."
RH> Same difference. You have lived zero complete years plus 6 months.
RH> When your first birthday arrives, you are 1 year old because
RH> one year has passed; the zero year.
JB> But you have to _switch_labels_ to do that!
RH> Yes, and you switch labels anyway; you are 6 months old, 7 months old,
RH> etc. and suddenly you are 1 YEAR old.
All right, then we see the crux of the matter clearly. There can be
zero _yearS_ (plural-categorical), but there can't be a "year zero" --a
complete year with the label "zero."
RH> That's the way it works. Don't confuse "first" with "one".
RH> The "first" year is the 0 year.
(*grin*) It don't seem like it's _me_ that's confused. My way, I don't
have to switch labels. "First" and "one" are the same thing, if we're
talking blocks --talking discrete entities.
JB> but I'll see if you can find first.
RH> Curry already pointed it out.What is 6 - 6?
That's it, but it still works my way. (I found the escape.) Did you
see one of the three messages I put it in?
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... milliHelen: amount of beauty needed to launch one ship.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: FREE WILL
|Date: 01 Mar 97 08:43:26
EID:0707 22614560
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 70e78ac4
On 26 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
JB> Given that self-interconnectedness appears to be a requirement for the
JB> only form of intelligence and self-awareness that we _know_ exists
JB> (human brains with "personalities" somehow riding in them), then the
JB> following reasoning is not necessarily invalid:
RH> Given that we don't know how it works, ANYthing is not necessarily
RH> invalid. Useless as an argument.
JB> If self-interconnectedness is a requirement for the Universe to be
JB> intelligent-as-a-whole and self-aware, and if _lack_ of self-
JB> interconnectedness refutes the idea that the Universe is intelligent
JB> and self-aware, what evidence do we have regarding the self-
JB> interconnectedness of the Universe?
RH> None, because nonlocality cannot be used to transmit information.
You're confusing a) human-meaningful "information" with a natural
configurational effect, b) "information" with the wholism of "the
wavefunction" (in its guise as an experimentally observable effect), and
c) nonlocality with "transfer." (Nothing "transfers"; the effect
appears simultaneously in two or more separated places, when something
is done in only one of the places.)
The two particles in an EPR experiment are _interconnected_ in some way.
The particle _set_ is "self-interconnected." I use the hyphenated word
in exactly that way in my quoted paragraph above.
JB> and in which direction, IF science has accurate information about the
JB> Universe's self-interconnectedness?
JB> And, _DOES_ science have this self-interconnectedness information, or
JB> does it not?
JB> You and I both know some of the answer to _that_ question....
RH> We do; it's NO! The keyword is "information", without which we
RH> can have no awareness.
Then "we" _don't_ both know. The answer is YES. You've confused what
we commonly mean by "information" with what happens in reality, in an
EPR experiment. No "information" "transfers" between the two particles,
yet it's experimentally obvious that doing something to one of them
produces an unambiguous effect in both of them.
So, I see no good reason to deny validity or usefulness to the effect
just because someone's confused about what is "information" and what is
not, or what is "transfer" and what is not. IOW, you can't deny the
interconnectedness of multiparticle EPR effects by hollering that
"information" cannot be "transferred" that way. Obviously it can (given
the caveat of getting your conceptualizations right), just not what we
would call "intelligent," or "serially transmitted" information.
Likewise, it might be said that neurons, any single one of which does
not carry anything _nearly_ as complex as "intelligent" information, yet
_somehow_ manages to produce --IN ASSOCIATION with billion of others--
that wonderful thing we call self-aware and intelligent information-
processing.
The effect seems to be solely that of a _configuration_ with 'delay
lines' in time. We have a wetware organ made of parallel-processing
subunits (neurons), each of which can only fire or not fire, whose sole
difference from a pile of them is its specific _configuration_.
Given a set of parallel EPR experiments (say, a sphere-shaped collection
of EPR photon emitters), if we were to 'detect' (measure) all of them
at once at one end, the other end's pattern of "hardened" properties
would have the same configuration in spacetime. That is, no "serial
information" would "transfer," but the pattern of events-in-spacetime at
one end logically would mirror the pattern of events-in-spacetime at the
other.
To me, the anti-real, anti-EPR 'no-information-transfers' argument is as
much a cop-out as a Fundie's argument that only HIS god could be the
real one. It's a matter of understanding what's _meant_ by both
'information' and 'transfer,' and seeing that that does not necessarily
eliminate 'copying' of 3D patterns in spacetime by means of the EPR
effect.
JB> Some of us prefer to move off the null with _no_ information, in
JB> either direction --Theists and AntiTheists, and some of us prefer to
JB> stay tight-stuck to the null --atheists and agnostics, and some of
us
JB> prefer to move only very slightly off the null. Does the information
JB> exist, or not exist, to justify _any_ of those movements?
JB> Again, you and I both know that it does.
RH> Wrong.
I see that. Apparently only I and a few others who think as me, know
that it does.
JB> IOW, we are _not_ stuck exactly and purely on the null hypothesis, IF
JB> we are honest and take quantum mechanics and nonlocality seriously.
JB> (Hmmm.... that's one of my better attempts.... (*grin*))
RH> Nice try alright, but no cigar.
Thanks. Have one anyway. (*g*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Science: Words and Music by God; arrangement by QM, for full Chorus
only.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 01 Mar 97 09:05:53
EID:0f67 226148a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 94362667
On 26 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
RH> Wrong. You are a decimal fraction of a year old, thus you are
RH> 0 whole years old.
JB> Like I said, I think we've been exploring the difference between two
JB> fundamentally incompatible systems, the discrete and the continuous.
RH> Nope; blocks need zero too. Show me 6 - 6 without a zero block.
RH> [-2] [-1] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]
RH> ^ 6 5 4 3 2 1
RH> Is it really -1 John?
You, the counter: "!"
!
[-2][-1][+1][+2][+3][+4][+5][+6][+7]
You start ON the block, and start counting _down_, removing
(subtracting) blocks from the line and including the [+6] block:
'Take away' (subtract) 6,5,4,3, and 2, move to the [+1] block, ready to
take it away also:
[-2][-1][+1]_!_ ___ ___ ___ ___ [+7]
Take away the last one:
[-2][-1]_!_ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ [+7]
Now, which block are you ON? (Not the _next_ block, which you are NOT
on after you've finished taking away (subtracting) six blocks)...
Answer: no block. You're not on a block. None. Zip. "Zero." All six
blocks are gone; 'subtracted', and you started AND finished ON the
blocks or block-places, without needing that ludicrous "zero block."
Consistency (FAIC) demands you either start and finish ON a block (or
the absence of a block, in the case of subtraction), or you start
_before_ the first block in your formula and finish _before_ the "answer
block."
To do it your way, you have to mix the two, starting ON a block and
removing it BUT finishing on a further block, or starting a block ahead
and finishing ON the answer block.
:::::--OR--::::: You have to bow to silliness and ugliness, by
including a "zero block" in your block line. (*grin*)
There is a "zero" in the number line. There is no "zero block" in a
line of discrete entities. Discretely, there either is, or is not, an
entity. A discrete entity called "the zero entity" is an oxymoron.
Zero entities (blocks) is ZERO ENTITIES. There is no entity that is
both AN entity and NOT an entity at the same time.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... If it works, rip it apart and find out why.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: INFINITESIMALS
|Date: 01 Mar 97 09:27:03
EID:e9f9 22614b60
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 61ce3cdf
On 26 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
JB> reason why they would not.
RH> The main reason is that a point is a location, not an object. As
As you know, we're treating it like an object--a 'reality'-- rather than
like an abstraction --a 'location.' We also retain all of the
properties of the abstraction _except_ coalesceability (we can't put two
or more points in the same location). Those seem to be the only
differences between "point" and "piont."
RH> such, it has to have a background space to be "in". So your whole
RH> concept is backward. And that means you can have as many as you want,
RH> because the background comes first.
In the abstraction of math, yes. But who's to say it's _my_ view that's
"backwards?" It seems to me that since the definitions of point and
line (or point and plane; point and background) are _circular_, and mine
is _serial_ (sequential from nothing), it's mine that's straightforward
and linear, and not "backward."
Moreover, if the background comes _first_, it is less serially logical:
the "first" precept from nothing ought to have no 'size' or
divisibility, but a background with no 'size' (hence divisibility) could
not allow emplacement of more than one point (one location). Hence
getting your background _first_ isn't serially logical: it's too "big"
to be the _first_ thing in the chain of getting precepts from nothing.
JB> 1) One such point is by definition dimensionless, has no 'size.'
JB> 2) Two such pionts, coalesced or superimposed (congruent), could
JB> have no 'size' either.
JB> 3) Two such points, _forbidden_ coalescence, must cause 'size'
JB> in some way, even if that size is ambiguous and nonquantifiable
JB> in terms of existing measurement systems.
RH> You can't have separation without defining a metric -first-.
There seems to be some disagreement about that, not all of it resting
with me.
But no matter: my main stance in this has been that 'standard math' does
not possess the language to speak the things I must speak. You confirm,
others confirm, the Physics echo is historically fraught with
confirmations (you echo Darryl, in what you say here), so why are Robert
et.al. arguing the opposite?
Like I said to Darryl: if I have to have a metric before I can speak of
'sphere' and 'distance,' and if what I have to start with is absolutely
_nothing_ ("[NoThing]") then hadn't I better have a way to MAKE a
metric? That's what that despicable, metaphysical 'origin sequence'
does: allows _manufacture_ of a "metric"--in the form of a network of
vertex order twelve; a slightly malleable, but otherwise rigidly
unambiguous network of pionts (objects), with a minimum, but
unquantified, 'distance' globally present between every two nodes that
the network allows to have it.
I am learning to hate both circular axioms and circular arguments.
I refuse to bend to all these "Catch-22s." If it's worth doing, it's
worth doing sequential-logically, from the only "absolute" starting
point there is: _nothing_.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Facts do not support Egos; they support Ideas.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: JOHN-BOY'S LAST CHANC
|Date: 01 Mar 97 09:46:30
EID:9d73 22614dc0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 5ab33b20
On 26 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Mark Kimes <=-
JB> Give me the 'formal math language' direct and unambiguous equivalent
JB> "that distance, less than which, two points coalesce and become one
JB> point." Else, grant that it doesn't exist.
RH> It doesn't exist in standard math.
That's exactly my point, and I'm getting all this flak for believing
exactly that. (Which, as you know well, I have claimed almost from the
very beginning.)
RH> In T-Verse, it's called dmin (thanks to me).
In T-verse, it's called that, thanks _very_much_ to you, Roger.
JB> And now return to the question itself: I have not had an issue with
JB> what two points would BE if they _did_ coalesce; its' obvious they
JB> would cease to be two. I need what the 'thing' is that is _between_
JB> them if the are forced together --with a sort of conceptually
JB> near-infinite 'force'-- but do NOT coalesce.
JB> You so far seem to be saying one of the following:
JB> a) the question is meaningless,
JB> b) the question is answerless (the language does not exist
JB> in which to formulate the answer),
JB> c) you are an idiot (John doesn't understand his own concept),
JB> d) I am an idiot (Mark doesn't understand John's concept).
RH> You left out e) the answer is undefined.
OK. sorry. It didn't occur to me because I'm confused about why
"undefined" is different from "useless" (*grin*). To me, "undefined"
doesn't do us any good. I'm wrong? I can say "that distance is
undefined," and math types -won't- holler at me for saying it? (If so,
I'd start using it in a heartbeat!)
RH> That's probably the correct one until you measure dmin. Or you could
As I (we) have always maintained.
As I've said before, the question is not "how big is it WRT us?" but
rather is "how big are WE in comparison to IT?" Being the proposed
absolute minimum "size" component of Universe, it would, if it were
real, BE the "absolute yardstick." We would then have to speak of our
measurement increments in terms of multiples of its "size" rather than
the other way around.
RH> say it's the same size as an electron....which also has no size.
Seems to be some confusion about that.... I'm reading a new one; seems
to be going to be a good one. (Did you know a single _atom_ has been
seen with the _naked_eye_? Yes. Properly, the light from a single
Barium ion trapped in a tuned laser beam, was seen by microscope in
1979, and later with the naked eye, as "a bright blue star in a volume
of emptiness." That is, the 10^8 photons emitted by that single atom
were enough to make it visible to the _naked_eye_. I was astonished.
Now I wanna get a look at one!) The book: Wick, David; The Infamous
Boundary: Seven Decades of Controversy in Quantum Physics.
Anyway, he describes a difference between theory and measurement, in the
electron's 'gyromagnetic ratio' --the ratio of the e-'s intrinsic
magnetism to its intrinsic 'spin.' The difference allows a 'size' to
the electron, but does not prove it.
JB> Fine. The question, phrased as it was, has no mathematical answer.
JB> Does it have a topological answer? I can't find that one, either,
RH> No. In topology, points cannot coalesce because it messes up the
RH> mapping. There is no "minimum distance" defined and it is not any
RH> metaphysical
RH> thing either. It's just a rule to keep you from screwing up.
At least it's _there_. (*grin*) If it weren't, I'd have no legs at
all, no standard math connection to start arguing from, no foothold.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... It's probably Probability....
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Out of your own mouth.
|Date: 01 Mar 97 10:05:35
EID:900a 226150a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 5e549f97
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89712bf0
On 28 Feb 97, Laurie Appleton wrote:
JB> (Are we in Holy_Smoke still? Yes?) Goodie:
JB> Laurie, blow it out your lying,
JB> Bible-Fundie, Sophist-Creationistic ASS.
LA> Your true character showing eh John?
Not at all. Blowing up now and then is no more a mark of someone's
"true character" than a hole in the radiator is a mark of an
automobile's "true character." I just sometimes get overfrustrated with
the blindness, stupidity and/or ignorance, sophistry and prevarication
of people with your type of religiously insane belief system.
(*chuckle*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... IRS: The Income Removal System
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Ceppa - Holographic
|Date: 01 Mar 97 10:10:58
EID:7f32 22615140
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 33d1a2fb
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 33164903
On 28 Feb 97, David Worrell wrote:
DW> 25 Feb 97 10:34, John Brawley wrote to Dan Ceppa:
DW> DC>> IOW, it in now an accurate comparison to your theory.
JB> The English major uses "your" instead of "you're,"
DW> Are you claiming that the word "your" in the above should be replaced
DW> with "you're?"
DW> Are you *really* saying this?
DW> Who ya gonna call black next, Mr. Pot?
Quote the whole message, in which it's obvious in the _previous_ comment
from him, he used "your" for "you're."
(Mr. Sophist David, _sir_.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... E^2/c^2 = p^2 + m^2*c^2
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Joe Seatter
|Sub: complaints
|Date: 01 Mar 97 10:13:00
EID:d7c7 226151a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 b820e8ea
REPLY: 1:163/125.0 331708ae
On 28 Feb 97, Joe Seatter wrote:
JS> Quoting John Brawley to Shelby Sherman
SS> Ever heard of an instantaneous rate of change?
JB> Functions and limits?
JB> Oh, you don't want to start _that_ shit here, do you?
JS> why? did you fail calculus too? or just grade 2 math?
A's in geometry, D's in algebra. Go figger. I have a top-notch
visualizer-conceptualizer, and an abominable abstracter, in the same
brain.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Growing Older: 'Essence cessation sensation.'
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Mathematics
|Date: 01 Mar 97 10:15:33
EID:d7fb 226151e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 859a3464
REPLY: 1:123/67 3317398e
On 28 Feb 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> Of course it does...as you debunk yourself here...
JB> (it
JB> 'limits' out to infinity,
SS> That's right, John. It has a MATHEMATICAL limit of infinity.
I'm right, but I'm debunked? How utterly logical of you....
JB> which is infinitely large, boundless,
JB> "open"). But the "lowest" possible (infinitesimally small) DOES have
JB> a bound, a 'limit,' and is "closed" ("zero").
SS> lim x ===> infinity is no less efficient in coming close to infinity
SS> than
SS> lim x ===> 0 is to coming close to 0
SS> This is mathematics, John, not Quantum Nightcrawlers.
Which, dear sir, seems to be the main reason it misleads so many so
well. The above is 'limits,' equivalent in both directions. The
_concepts_ --the mindstuff-- behind 'zero' and 'infinity,' however, are
neither of them primarily _mathematical_ ones.
JB> At far reaches of the former, "more and more" becomes visible, while
JB> at far reaches of the latter, one faintly detects the cancellation of
JB> everything: at that lowest 'limit' is _NOTHING_. IOW, the two ends
JB> are equivalent in imagination, but not equivalent in character. In
JB> imagination, one adds and adds and adds to 'infinity,' without end,
JB> but one subtracts and subtracts, and sees oneself approaching an awful
JB> nothingness in the other direction.
SS> How shocking. Mathematically, I can push the limit equally in either
SS> direction.
Mathematically, you can. You must have missed the difference between
"math" and "reality." "Zero" can be imagined quite a bit more easily
than can "infinity." In imaging, zero _stops_ thought, but 'infinity'
does not. (Can not.)
SS> lim x/1 as x ---> infinity = lim 1/x as x ---> 0
SS> You're debunked, Bait Son.
I'm _mathematically_ debunked, Sophist Daddy.
(Thank God for small favors.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Tagline: "Tag! You're it!"
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 01 Mar 97 10:23:02
EID:fff3 226152e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 f85bc3df
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33179960
On 01 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
JB> No, if a stance can't be defended in some way, it must be modified or
JB> scrapped. Watch this:
JB> 6 - 6 = 0 (and as you recall, "zero" means "nothing").
DC> No, John. You still fail to grasp what should be obvious
DC> to you. Your "numberline" does not work. Zero exists.
What's 'obvious' to me is that the whole discussion is mixing up two
fundamentally different systems of thought, the discrete, in which an
'existent nonexistent entity' is an oxmoron, and the continuous (the
number line, which my [block] line is NOT), in which a 'zero' concept is
apparently necessary. (Zero "exists," but isn't a discrete existent-
positive (as opposed to existent-negative, or nonexistent) 'thing.'
Numbers are not things, they are abstractions of things. "Blocks" are
things. A 'zero block' is an obvious oxymoron.)
JB> (IOW, lemme be self-consistent: since "zero" does not exist in
JB> [blocks] (infinitesimals), I shall use _my_ method, and arrive at the
JB> correct answer:
DC> Do you really enjoy the twisting and squirming that you do
DC> to make your "math" work?
(??!!) Of _course_! Why would I try to think my way into or out of
logical binds if it weren't _fun_? It's also educational: I'm educated
primarily by exploring all ways I can come up with, to justify a
proposition, and, like in science, if I'm _falsified_, I _learn_. If
I'm not _falsified_, however, but am rather merely _defined_-out of
correctness (someone's arbitrary axioms are reached and exposed by my
effort), than I _also_ learn, but what I learn in that case is "what's
accepted practice" rather than "what's utterly true."
I don't believe in rote learning, nor in accepting what's told me as
final while there remain askable questions or uncoverable counters.
Perhaps arguing interminably with creationists has made me less willing
to accept something just because "somebody says so."
JB> and its axioms just don't quite match those of the math Robert's class
JB> teaches. Hence, no one's going to need a transfusion.
DC> BTW, just what blood type are you, JIC?
JB> Who is JIC, O Dan-O?
JB> (*grin*)
DC> You shouldn't be grinning, John. It's 'Just In Case' you
DC> loose too much blood from your serious injuries.
(I was (*grin*)ing because my response answered your question.)
(Twice.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Thinkers travel in cognito.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 01 Mar 97 10:41:11
EID:fff3 22615520
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 5890d21e
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33179ab2
On 01 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
JB> I caught the hint earlier, but ignored it. My assumption was always
DC> See, David, he knew it all along but ignored it!
JB> "Earlier" was barely a week ago. Before that, I had no idea Mark
JB> Kimes was "Hector Plasmic."
DC> How long have you been at least a little bit active in this Echo,
DC> John? Do you ever bother to read anything at all that is not
DC> addressed to you or has the Quantum Baitshop attatched to it?
There's an awful LOT of traffic in this echo.
I don't _read_ most of the QB-origin line ones unless they have
something worth commenting on. They seldom do. Mostly the echo's full
of "you're wrong!" "No, you're wrong," and such like, plus a mess of
"you're an idiot!"s... Mostly, the bait shoppe lines are just a bother,
increasing the time it takes to do my keyword-scans of message bodies.
In Mark's case, I saw no direct references to the two being the same
person, and I'm not all _that_ good at regognizing writing styles. One
anti-theist popping off reads pretty much like another antitheist
popping off, just as one Fundie reads pretty much like another.
DC> Al Schroeder welcomed Mark back into the Echo and referred to
DC> him as Hector quite some time again.
Missed it. So? Last mention of Hec I saw was something about him being
_dead_. That was months ago.
DC> The Echo does not revolve around your "quantum god", John. I'm
DC> sure that many ignore all of your references to one, especially
DC> the fundys.
Oh, _especially_ the Fundies.... --both types.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... "There can be only One." --Connor McLeod
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: complaints
|Date: 01 Mar 97 11:16:33
EID:ab28 22615a00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d4e759dd
REPLY: 1:123/67 3315bc53
On 27 Feb 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> SS>> What about a point on a curve, Bait Boy?
JB> Curve is line.
SS> SS>> Ever heard of an instantaneous rate of change?
Oxymoron. No change can occur in an "instant" unless the "instant" has
temporal width. Usually "instant" is not thought of as having duration.
See Zeno. (Not Zero.) (*grin*)
JB> Functions and limits?
SS> No, an instataneous rate of change, just like I asked. This is
SS> commonly known as the derivate of a function, not limits or a
SS> function. You do
SS> know what a function is, don't you? Repeat after me...for every value
SS> of x there can be one and only value for y.
Yeah, I'm struggling through a primer....
Mapping one set onto another requires a "function," which has the
"function" of controlling the mapping....
JB> Oh, you don't want to start _that_ shit here, do you?
SS> Oh, I'll probably start any sort of shit I please.
Quite likely....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; a-mentalism = mindlessness
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: infinitesimals
|Date: 01 Mar 97 11:19:33
EID:e338 22615a60
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 a6fb9856
REPLY: 1:123/67 3315be2b
On 27 Feb 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> 25 Feb 97 21:03, quoting John Brawley to Shelby Sherman:
JB> Limits are excuses, made necessary by a need to avoid "infinitesimal"
JB> increments of motion or time.
SS> Motion or time? Not all limits involve infinity, John.
Agreed. My "primer" --the Berlinski book that Robert objects to so
strongly-- says Leibniz's original grasp (the beginnings of the
calculus) was in thinking about motion and time. There, the concept of
a 'limit' is clearly explained. I don't like it any better now that I
understand it more, than I did when I didn't. It's just a way of
avoiding infinitesimal-discrete increments, so that continuousness can
be preserved in the math.
(on calculus)
SS> That was in the late 60's but I don't think things have changed that
SS> much.
Probably not.
SS> JB>> Spit it out, boys, if you know it, or admit I'm right that there
SS> JB>> are just _some_ concepts that don't _have_ "standard math"
SS> JB>> formatting.
SS> SS>> Just what is your mathematical background, John?
JB> Who gives a damn? Surely not you.
JB> I got straight 'A's in HS geometry.
SS> I see.
See what? That I don't have "high enough" math to be able to think
thoughts about math?
JB> My question has apparently no answer in math, and barely is
JB> addressable by topology. Some have said that claim's bogus; now we're
JB> seeing it isn't.
SS> I got in late on your question, but it seems that most in here
SS> disagree with you.
So what _else_ is new, sir?
Some agree. I'm trying to get a 'standard math' phrasing for a
difficult-to-describe, apparently topological concept, "that distance
(or separation) less than which, two points coalesce to become one
point." I can't find an equivalent standard math phrasing; no one else
has come up with one; some have said it doesn't exist, is meaningless,
is a product of my twisted imagination, or is irrelevant; I claimed it
didn't exist; _they_ seem to think it doesn't-----and you think they're
_disagreeing_ with me?
They're _agreeing_ with me, except for lone Robert, that that phrasing
doesn't exist, and lone Robert has yet to show the math-equivalent
phrasing in this echo. Now you're (prejudicially, since I'm the
claimee) up to date. (*grin*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... It's probably Probability....
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: 'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 01 Mar 97 11:32:30
EID:aeee 22615c00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 1e67736b
On 26 Feb 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
JB> Take away the sixth and last one:
JB> [-2][-1] *
JB> 6 5 4 3 2 1
JB> Now, are you standing ON the [-1] block? No.....
JB> So what are you standing ON? (Nothing. "Zero.")
JB> (*cackle!*))
JB> Have a happy! Think I'll copy that to Dan.
RH> Oh nonsense, John. What is 6 - 1, your way?
Subtract the one block, count what's left without going negative:
<--- *
[-2][-1][+1][+2][+3][+4][+5][___][+7]
5 4 3 2 1
Five.
Or, remove the (subtract the) [+1] block and count the remainder
forwards:
*
[-2][-1]___[+2][+3][+4][+5][+6][+7]
1 2 3 4 5
Still five....
RH> Why, zero! That's what you are standing on, right?
No, by the time I have removed the [+6] block ("6 minus 1"), _and_
counted what's left over of the positive blocks (starting ON the first
of the blocks to be counted), I am standing ON the fifth block from the
one I started my post-subtraction count ON.
RH> The answer is the block you are standing on. You MUST
RH> stand on a block.
I _Must_?? Why? I can stand on a block, or on the empty spot where a
block used to be... Same difference, basically.
RH> What is 6 - 0? It's _6_, the block you are _still_
RH> standing on.
Right. So? In that case I have removed no blocks at all, so of
_course_ I'm still standing on the 6 block. (*grin*)
See how confusing a discrete-block line gets if you stick a silly ol'
"zero block" in there where it's not needed?
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... A stopped clock is correct twice a day, but a military clock only once.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Alignment List, part
|Date: 01 Mar 97 11:49:10
EID:f8e4 22615e20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 67508d69
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 21731c5f
On 27 Feb 97, Katherine Wintersnight wrote:
JB> KW> JB>Thank you. If I can't get Worrell and company to remove my name
JB> KW> from JB>their _origin_lines_, at least I can ask that these lie(s)
not
JB> KW> JB>included in various registries.... (*grin*)
JB> KW> John, the fastest way to do that is to develop a sense of humor
about
JB> KW> the whole thing. The origin lines are funny, but the bee stung
JB> KW> howling from you is even funnier. And if I hadn't decided that
any
KW> JB>(*chuckle*) You're no brighter than they are, apparently....
KW> Well, I'm bright enough not to need to try and boast about it,
KW> Sweetcheeks.
You're not bright enough to avoid seeing "stung howling" where no such
ever existed, HoneyDove....
I keep telling, but no one's listening: I am not anywhere _near_ as
bothered as y'all seem pleased to think I am. Nobody gets it.
So what else is new?
KW> JB>Sorry, Katherine, but the shoe's not on the foot you think it is.
KW> JB>My sense of humor is not only intact, but is also both subtle and
KW> JB>sometimes downright convoluted. Whom do you credit for keeping
KW> this JB>thing alive this long? those buffoons, or me?
KW> Them.
Right. You're not as ignorant as you let on.
KW> You come off about as effective or bright as a kitten chasing a
KW> wad of tin foil.
You might give that analogy some careful thought. It's more accurate
than most of these others seem to think.....
KW> Face it, John, you're only real recognition comes
KW> from running a bait shop. Other than that, you're just another crank
KW> in the crowd.
Hence the specific word "Quantum?" Really.
Face it Katherine; _Worrell_ runs the "bait shop"; he's just using my
name on it without paying a royalty, and he has no bait to sell. I just
happen to like the basic idea of "quantum bait," as in: baiting the hook
to lure the fishies in to bite on quantum mechanics." Worrell doubtless
thinks of "quantum bait" pejoratively, as in: "ludicrously useless."
Is it a "{quantum-bait} _shop_," or a "quantum {bait-shop}?"
I think of the potential catch as very worthwhile indeed.
"Bait to get fish to bite on quantum mechanics," rather than
"bait that looks like quantum mechanics" or a shop that's as confusing
and counterintuitive as quantum mechanics is.
If _I_ ran the shop, most of these guys wouldn't have the wherewithal to
purchase the bait anyway, much less the talent to catch fish with it.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... An open mind should not be mistaken for an open dumpster.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 01 Mar 97 12:07:35
EID:fff3 226160e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 4030a246
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33179838
On 01 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
-> On 25 Feb 97 22:12:38, ROBERT CURRY got back to JOHN BRAWLEY
RS> [-3][-2][-1][0][+1][+2][+3][+4][+5][+6][+7]
RS> 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
JB> You have to start counting by 'stepping forward' OFF of the
RC> In my experience playing math games with dozens of children, none
RC> have ever had any trouble with this very intuitive notion, John.
DC> Well, what can you say? You tried.
JB> We don't count marbles
RC> You've lost your marbles. Count the STEPS.
DC> And, you came back really hard to hammer in the point.
DC> Do you think it will penetrate? And, where is Leipzig when you
DC> need a diamond-studded drill bit?
Marty's probably intelligent and knowledgeable enough to catch the real
source of the problem right off the bat: conflict between discrete and
continuous systems.
I'm not arguing because I think I'm _right_ mathematically; I'm arguing
because the concept of a "zero marble" or a "zero block" is NOT
intuitive, nor is it imho really defensible except in the usual told-to-
kids way: "don't argue with me; that's just the way it is!"
There is clear conflict. No kid counts marbles by calling the first
marble counted, the "number zero marble." And no kid counts a set of
black marbles plus a set of white marbles, by sticking an _invisible_
and nonpresent "grey" marble in between the finish of one set and the
start of the other set, and counting it as a marble.
Talk about counterintuitive?
It must be resolved. As we argue, ways towards that resolution may or
may not appear. I personally think it's already settled, by showing
_where_ "zero" actually appears, not as a block, but as the "number"
_between_ blocks, thus:
| | | | | | |
|[-3]|[-2]|[-1]|[+1]|[+2]|[+3]|
| | | | | | |
-3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3
And thus also, _every_ number in the continuous number line is a NO-
width dividing line, while _every_ discrete "infinitesimal" is in a
geometric sense a nonzero-width item, and a "zero" nonzero-width item
becomes simply an oxymoron.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... If God is real, we will not find Him 'outside' of reality.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Confirm supplication
|Date: 01 Mar 97 12:22:49
EID:e1d8 226162c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 c383fa2f
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33179f08
On 01 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
DC> ... +Origin: John Brawley's African Quantum Muti Emporium, SA
Oh, for Pity's sake....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... I'm sorry -- my karma ran over your dogma.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: Dan Triplett
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Alignment List, part
|Date: 02 Mar 97 23:12:24
EID:0508 2262b980
MSGID: 1:352/28.0 8AA20682
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 94-0195
-> SA>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to All <=-
->
-> SA> KW> WHO'S WHO: THE ALIGNMENT LIST:
->
-> SA> Wow...I'm at the top!!!
->
-> SA> Probably time time to put my 2 pennies in.
->
-> SA> KW> Name Location Alignment I
->
-> SA> Sue Alexander Madison, WI USA. agnostic and a
-> SA> aStaalist
-> 3 yrs,
-> SA> m
-> SA> l
->
->
->
-> The corrections are already on the web page
-> (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3158/cast.html) and will show up in
-> the first of the month posting here.
-> ---
-> * OLXWin 1.00a * duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-Dan Triplett
->
->
-> --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
-> * Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes
-> (1:381/123)
Wow....I made it to the tagline fame....I am honored....Dan Triplett
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: R-Squared BBS (1:352/28.0)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 02 Mar 97 11:06:51
EID:8d7a 226258c0
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 318 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 1614464a
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KY> KY> affection just as heterosexual should. But, many gays do cause scenes
KY> KY> about their lifestyle, and often make a point of people knowing
they
KY> KY> are gay, without any reason.
KY> DW> So do many heterosexuals, Ken. Your point?
KY>FUnny, I must have missed the news stories of the "Straight Rights" rallies..
There are plenty of them. Dedicated to *denying* the rights they
already have to others.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Better to light one fundy than curse the darkness.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: CompuMate - Tulsa, OK (918)663-3454 (1:170/551)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: bozos, bozos everywhere
|Date: 02 Mar 97 11:06:51
EID:aabe 226258c0
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 318 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 1614464b
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KY> KY> Besides many of their products making me break out, they have also
KY> KY> been involved in other things I am strongly against, such as
KY> KY> NutraSweet, and genetically altered foods.
KY> DW> I wonder if this clown has ever seen a "wild" tomato
KY> DW> plant before. Or any "wild" vegetable, for that matter.
KY>Fine, I'll rephrase it.. "Genetically ENGINEERED foods."
Aren't you laboring under the belief that plants were 'created'?
How much more engineering could there *BE* under that scenario?
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: CompuMate - Tulsa, OK (918)663-3454 (1:170/551)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Mario Gonzalez
|Sub: clones
|Date: 02 Mar 97 11:06:52
EID:7e21 226258c0
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 318 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 1614464d
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
MG> KS> Well, 'Dolly', the first actual adult mammal clone is alive and
well.
MG> KS> Coincidentally, she's a sheep.
MG> KS> I'm having a devil (oops) of a time trying to figure out what impact
MG> KS> this will have on fundys...
MG> people with no souls roaming the planet!
Better that than what we have now; fundys with no MINDS roaming...
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Listen: this is real bizarre: 'datum' is and 'data' are.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: CompuMate - Tulsa, OK (918)663-3454 (1:170/551)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Goofiness.
|Date: 02 Mar 97 11:06:52
EID:f1f2 226258c0
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 318 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 1614464e
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
SA>Just saw on the AANews mailing list where some Republican yahoo
SA>(Thomas Colson R-Oklahoma) admonished NBC for showing, unedited,
SA>"Schindler's List". Got his panties all in a knot over
SA>"full-frontal nudity, violence, and profanity".
SA>of irrational hatred can reap. But then, said representative
SA>belongs to some sort of Christian "pro-family" group, so he probably
SA>doesn't like to admit what hatred can do.
Here's some info from 'the horse's mouth', as it were. The rep. is
Tom A. Coburn. I have known him personally, VERY well since 1969
when I became chief pilot for his father's company, Coburn Optical
Industries. I don't know if you know much about corporate pilots,
but they are in a unique position to know and observe the executives
of the company much more intimately than other employees, since they
typically not only 'drive the airplane', but are, obviously, in close
proximity to them during out-of-town journeys. There are other
concomitant 'duties' which are more often than not, performed by
their aerial chauffeurs, including but not limited to procurement
of hookers and booze, picking them up off the sidewalk when they
overindulge and pass out, and endure their wrath when they want to
travel to another city in the middle of the night and cannot under-
stand why the pilot would not rather expose them (and himself) to
weather conditions that would dissuade Evil Kneivel from taking to
the air.
Now, Mr. Tom Coburn, his brothers Dave and Jim and Tom's uncle, John
are all multimillionaires. From inhertinence from O. W. Coburn who
was the founder/owner of the Co.;most of which largesse was acquired by
exploitation of their emplo