God Damned Fundies!
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: RELIGIONS IN CANADA - STA
|Date: 06 Mar 96 16:26:00
EID:c6ae 20668340
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Sue Armstrong <=-
JH> I suspect it's 'Not Elsewhere Classified', either that or
JH> 'National Electrical Code'.
How about 'Not Exactly Christian'? Or 'No Extraneous Commentary'? OR,
most probably, 'Not Even Comprehensible'.
... I'm weird, but around here it's barely noticable.
--- FLAME v1.1
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:20:00
EID:accd 20673a80
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Sean Mccullough <=-
JG> How do you prove the wind exists ? You can't see it or put it in a
Oh for Pete's sake...go to your nearest museum gift shop and buy the
weather experimentation kit. The one that's made for 7 year olds. Although
a bit cheesy it will have everything necessary for 'proving' the wind
exists.
And if you still need more 'proof', come to Charleston. Hurricane Hugo was
in 1989 but I can still show you what THAT wind did.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:26:00
EID:283e 20673b40
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Judith Bandsma <=-
JG> Creationism has it's place in the social studies and history classes.
That's not where the fundies here want it. They want it taught as science.
As far as social studies/history...you have got to be kidding.
JG> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
Register this, please. Besides being the RIGHT thing to do, you will have
another testimonial to add to your collection. The authors send you the
nicest letter thanking you for your honesty.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OR MAYBE JUST SUGAR
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:30:00
EID:a21a 20673bc0
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Michael Hardy <=-
JG> GREAT MESSAGE and worth quoting for people to read again :-)
Then you're going to have to read my answer to it ... AGAIN!
When you start pushing for legislation to deny the civil rights of those
you 'disapprove' of, it is hate. I disapprove of people who allow their
dogs to run loose, but I'm not going to lobby for legislation that would,
in effect, strip them of their citizenship.
And that's what the legislation in Colorado, and proposed in Oregon, would
do. When any one group is singled out like that, and it is allowed to stand,
we are ALL in danger of losing rights that people have fought and died for.
Who knows...YOU could be next.
... HolySmoke: Where fundys take themselves seriously, & no one else does.
--- FLAME v1.1
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: BIG BIRD
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:40:00
EID:59ef 20673d00
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Masochistic Maiden <=-
NS> foods there for them to eat if they feel inclined to try them. My
NS> youngest loves brussel sprouts because of this (heh heh heh), but
NS> then, so do I.
I should have known my youngest would turn out weird when, at the age of
4, he LOVED liver and onions (and still does). And at the age of 8 we took
him to a new fancy restaurant downtown (he's always had good manners). He
saw escargot on the menu and wanted some. We tried to discourage him...even
telling him it was snails...because they were fairly expensive. Then we
figured we'd let him find out for himself.
He loved them. So that became his special birthday food.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: FOF CULT UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:50:00
EID:11f1 20673e40
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Fredric Rice <=-
RS> Is that the gay rights issue? If so, what the hell are you talking
RS> about!? Everyone knows that faggots are half human perverts. Geeesh.
Yep, and once they get the fags into 'resettlement' camps you know who's
next, don't you? Most likely intellectual, atheistic, college students.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: DEMONS...DEMONS
|Date: 07 Mar 96 08:00:00
EID:22fd 20674000
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Judith Bandsma <=-
RS> On another note, by choosing Win95 you have sold your soul to Satan.
Hey, it was included in the price and they refused to take off anything
for NOT getting it. I refuse to pay for something and then not get it.
Maybe I should rethink that policy.
... Quaker threat: Pardon, brother--thou standst where I'm about to shoot.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Becke Jones
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:d1cc 20671800
On 5 Mar 96 12:56am, PRESTON SIMPSON wrote to ALL:
PS> As some of the more observant amongst you may have noticed, I've been
PS> absent for nearly a week. This is not my fault (no Satanic curses, no
PS> illnesses, no wild and passionate orgies), but rather due to that old
PS> standby, FIDO problems. Everything *should* be straightened out by now,
PS> but I've doubtlessly missed a lot.
Undoubtedly, not as much as _I've_ missed being away for nearly a year!!
It's good to be back...=)
Becke
... WORK HARDER!... Millions on welfare depend on YOU!!!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 145
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 226/10 120
SEEN-BY: 226/300 600 630 700 760 860 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 226/700 10 600 270/101 218/801
|From: Becke Jones
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: IN HIS OWN BUTT-UGLY
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:74c8 20671800
FR> It's a HolySmoke touch stone. Sorta like "NOODLES" and "WE WANT YOUR
FR> CHILDREN!" and "Creamy or Ranch?"
"Noodles" I remember....Enlighten me on the "We want your children!" and
"Creamy or Ranch?", please!! I've been gone WAY too long!
Becke
... We're from the government and we're here to help you
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 145
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 226/10 120
SEEN-BY: 226/300 600 630 700 760 860 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: CHRISTIAN DEATH CULT
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:91b8 20671800
On 4 Mar 96 11:12am, FREDRIC RICE wrote to KENNETH CAVNESS:
FR> Which is why I advocated the reinstatement of Steve Winter in FidoNet.
Winter _finally_ got booted? When? Details, details...
Becke
... This Tag line is Stolen.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 145
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:3088 20671800
On 3 Mar 96 07:51am, STEVE WALLIS wrote to KEVIN D. MCKENZIE:
SW> Funny. Point is-Focus on the Family is rooted in Christ. There's not
a
SW> gun powerful enough to destroy it or knock it down. There doing there
SW> all to serve Christ the best they can and will recieve their reward
for
SW> doin gso. If they wanted to please the world, you wouldnt be against
SW> them. But as it is, their not serving the world, their serving Christ.
SW> And so am I.
But the underlying question is this. You say above that " they will recieve
their reward for doing so". Thus, the reasons for doing it are far from
altruistic. Which brings up two further questions. First being, if there
were
no reward involved, how many people would actually do things for the "common
good"? Secondly, does your definition of "serving Christ" including bilking
the vulnerable out of their well-earned money? Perhaps we are seeing the
true
meaning of Christianity?
SW> If you cant seem to read their stuff-then why jump to conclusions and
SW> rule it out? Focus on the Family is a morally based Christian
SW> organization guy. There's no hate in it. Its about love for others.
It
SW> doesnt go around trying to spread the message of hate but love. Listen
SW> to one of their programs on your local Christian radio station. Where
SW> do you hear them talking about hate? They dont.
Even a mortal enemy can sugar-coat poison to make it go down easier...
SW> Then your a joke. Your no better than anyone guy, and you know I just
SW> said the truth. If any man thinks himself to be more than what he is
he
SW> decieves himself. On what standard to you judge FOF?
The same can be said of any man thinking himself to be less than what he
is.
Which is basically the jist of Christianity.
SW> Aids and venereal disease is sickness. Why would you compare Christ's
SW> Church to something that is unclean?
Religious addiction is a sickness too, m'dear...
Becke
... It just doesn't get any áETA than this ...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 145
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:cc8a 20671800
On 3 Mar 96 10:55pm, KENNETH MCABEE wrote to SEAN MCCULLOUGH:
KM> Saturday March 02 1996 03:03, Sean McCullough mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
SM>> For you to tempt it, it would have to exist first.
KM> He does.
I've been gone almost a year, and I'm willing to wager you still haven't
produced one shred of evidence to show this...
SM>> Not to mention that you're still short one "God" to start out with.
Care
SM>> to address this small problem by honest means, Ken??
KM> Have been.
Yeppers. Still beating your son, Ken?
SM>> Otherwise, you CONTINUE to REMAIN a fraud.
KM> Tell God that.
Produce him, and we will.
KM> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
KM> anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign,
KM> he refused, he would not give them the sign that they requested
KM> directly of him. We know Christ by the things that he did, the signs
Perhaps because he was blowing smoke?
KM> to prove that we have faith, would be tempting God. It would be us,
the
KM> Christian, saying to God, go ahead protect us like you said you would,
KM> that would be us seeking a sign from God, just as you do. Well, I'm
It is wrong to question an irrational belief?
Becke
... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 145
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 226/10 120
SEEN-BY: 226/300 600 630 700 760 860 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: O.J. Simpson
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Cult Christianity
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:32:00
EID:4589 20677c00
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org f71228bd
MSGID: 1:363/309 56dd9f12
PID: RA 2.02 8069
> Damn, O.J.....that tape you told me to burn...? I think I
> left
> it on the counter at the Post Office...
da one with dat barbieri bitch getting slapped? damn i hopes when i
kills dat bitch she aint got some pussy ass waiter nearby...
da same thing cant happen twice; right?
---
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:31:29
EID:2f0c 206723e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313e66f7
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 20897f0d
04 Mar 96 09:11, Jim Germiquet wrote to Rick Mcfarlane:
DW>> Dr. Suess' books are aimed at children. I thought the Bible was
DW>> aimed at *everybody*, not just a barbaric group of savages 2-4000
DW>> years ago.
RM>> You guys are amazing. You ridicule the fundies who believe that
RM>> the bible was written in English, yet, when it suits your
RM>> purposes, you pretend that it actually WAS written in English.
JG> RIGHT ON !!!!!
You agree with him? Good. Maybe you can tell me where I, or any other atheist
here, "pretends" that the Bible was written in English.
Can you, or are you completely full of shit?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: demons...DEMONS
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:40:49
EID:de49 20672500
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313e68dc
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 13cf2768
05 Mar 96 21:31, Ryan Shaw wrote to Judith Bandsma:
JB>> thing runs on my old 286 with *1* meg of RAM. DOS only, of
JB>> course. Last night I tried launching it on the new system just to
JB>> see how it would look. (Yes, I did drop to DOS mode first...I
JB>> ain't *that* dumb) And I get...are you ready for this
JB>> one?..."Yserbius needs 512K to run. Insufficient memory". Uh,
JB>> guys...I've got 16mb, so what gives? I guess a few demons have
JB>> escaped from the dungeon and infested the system.
RS> There are lots of problems with older games running under Win95 and/or
RS> OS/2. Did you just drop to DOS or did you boot straight to DOS?
RS> Win95 is loaded on top of DOS, although Billy wouldn't like you to
RS> think so. I believe you can edit your WIN.INI file so that it just
RS> loads up the new version of DOS that came with Win95.
Ryan was correct up to that point. If you want to run in DOS7, bring up
your msdos.sys (it should be in your root directory, and yes it is now a
simple ascii file) in a text editor. You'll see a line that says BootGUI=1.
Change that to BootGUI=0. Do not change anything else in this file,especially
all the garbage at the bottom. Reboot. You will find yourself in DOS. If
you want to run Windows after that, either change it back to BootGUI=1 and
reboot, or just type "WIN". And you believed it when Gates said you didn't
need DOS anymore, huh? :)
Alternately, you could left click on the icon that represents the game icon
while in windows. Pull down to "Properties...", then click on the "Program"
Tab. At the bottom of that screen, you'll see a button marked "Advanced".
Click it. (Bear with me, we're almost finished.) On the screen that appears,
choose MS-DOS mode, and set up the config.sys and autoexec.bat files you
want to use to run the game (your regular config.sys and autoexec.bat files
will be preserved. The new ones will only be used when you run that particular
game.)
One important note: If you have the CD distribution of Win 95, DO NOT delete
your old DOS CD driver. If^H^H When Windows crashes, you will need that
driver to reinstall windows.
As a final note, if you have any problems, do not bother calling Microsoft
Tech Support. It will be a complete waste of your money.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:19:42
EID:2f70 20672260
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313e640f
03 Mar 96 16:15, Norbert Sykes wrote to Michael Hardy:
NS> So unless you want to totally redefine the wordage of the English
NS> Language to conform to what you want it to believe (Has an Alice in
Mikey does that quite often. If you're ever bored, ask him what a rhetorical
question is.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:42:06
EID:3ac7 20672540
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313e6958
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 13cf276b
Which of the various Staal personae is in charge of the neuron tonight?
05 Mar 96 21:39, Ryan Shaw wrote to Mark Staal:
MS>> ....That may be, but, when I last spoke to him he was quite
MS>> serious about this and said he wasn't coming back because of
MS>> the abuse his wife was taking from CERTIAN people on
MS>> this echo.....
Well ain't that just a crying shame, Jimbo? You can heap abuse and slurs
on the women here (most of them being somebody's wife), but you can't take
it when your wife is abused. Why am I not surprised?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Taking a break
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:25:55
EID:ada2 20672320
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313e657f
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 13cf276e
05 Mar 96 21:44, Ryan Shaw wrote to John Prewett:
JP>> To- Whoever may have recently sent me a post-
JP>> I'll routinely pick up my mail, and will save it, however,
JP>> I don't expect to be responding for at least a couple of months.
RS> Awwww, just when it was getting good. Are you off to kill more bears
RS> in the Alaskan wilds?
Only if he can make a bear laugh itself to death. He's come close to that
several times with me.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: they're at it again
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:03:02
EID:1c43 20672060
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313e601d
05 Mar 96 08:23, Judith Bandsma wrote to J.j. Hitt:
WB>> Regards Consulting Moderator.
How many damned moderators do they have over there now, anyway?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:44:14
EID:079f 20672580
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313e6a24
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 313c70e3
05 Mar 96 12:51, Don Martin wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Heheh... I ought to be famous, considering the time I've spent
DW>> trying to get this numbnuts to contribute something besides his
DW>> moronic cut and paste jobs. I think I can claim success, too.
DW>> Terry Righteous-Indignation-Parker is much more entertaining that
DW>> the old Terry Cut-and-Paste-Parker.
DM> Apparently, he wasn't around here during the Waco
DM> stand-off, or he'd by all over me like cheap cologne. I
DM> remember that I suggested we napalm the place about a week
DM> into the seige. Mebbe the second (yer memory goes with age).
Hell, that's what I would have done after they fired on the agents serving
the warrant. 'Cept I would have used white phosphorous - it leaves less
of a mess than napalm.
---
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Hamas
|Date: 06 Mar 96 23:32:00
EID:10ce aa04f030
MSGID: 1:206/2720 2117596e
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> Hamas, that lovely band of Islamic fundy nuts, has
> returned to their old ways of blowing up innocent
> people (at this point, mainly Israelis - four
> terrorist attacks in 10 days.) How should Israel
> respond to this group, which obviously has no interest
> in peace, and simply wants to see the end of the State
> of Israel? How should the peace-inclined Palestinians
> respond? *adh*
Kinda tricky, either way. Admittedly, this could easily be seen as admitting
defeat, but then that land isn't especially valuable anyway; if I were in
either of the groups you're asking about, I'd flee the country. Assuming
that was possible, I suppose. I'm not sure how well received Palestinian
immigrants would be in, say, Turkey (which would probably be my first choice
if I were a Palestinian, assuming (as seems safe) that I were a moslem),
or Israeli immigrants would be in Europe or America.
If such cowardly options are not available, I'd say either faction you mention
above would be justified in, and ought to, pursue some fairly serious anti-terrorist
measures. Brutality and money are to some degree interchangeable; pursuing
lots of leads calmly can produce the same results as pursuing some leads
aggressively. Though their finances are not great, I'd say the sensitivity
of the present situation suggests both the Israelis and the peace-loving
Palestinians should dig deep in their pockets.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 06 Mar 96 19:30:57
EID:f685 20669bc0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354a7ad
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 88638df6
JB> Avenge does not of _necessity_ mean "kill" or "slaughter."
JB> Enslaving the Midianites, extracting tribute, imprisoning
JB> them, exiling their King and their leaders, destroying their
JB> crops --all qualify as 'avenging themselves.' The POINT is
JB> that the text does not _literally_ report God instructing
JB> Moses in detail, to do what _Moses_ later instructed his
JB> armies to do. That's all. It was _imprecise_, not
JB> necessarily "wrong."
In the context of the times and in what is written int he bible it does.
Does your religion blind you so badly that you cannot or will not see this?
Had Moses gone out to the hebrews and commanded them to kill, shouldn't
your god have done something about it? The answer is obvious. God ordered
and wnated the killings.
JB> with _strict_precision_ and actual facts, then why bother?
JB> No one who firmly believes a nonfalsifiable can have his
JB> mind changed without you/me/us finding something that turns
JB> the nonfalsifiable into a falsifiable.
So, you require everything to be written out, black and white like the worst
of the fundies. There is no room for thinkers with this attitude. Your
demand that the bible be explicit on this reminds me of someone with an
agenda. I note with amusement the exchange between your self and Hector
about the "Universal Conciousness" or what ever you call it. I certainly
don't see that spelled out anywhere.
JB> I didn't say that. I merely said that the interpretation of
JB> "vengeance" was obviously left up to Moses.
So again, I have to ask you...if Moses got it wrong, why didn't god say
something to him about it?
JB> You ASS...ume that I am a fundie? with a deep need to believe in
JB> the God of the Bible? Disapprise yourself of that falsity
JB> immediately. I am about as far from being a fundie as one
JB> can get without turning into an atheist. Fact. Baldfaced
Your constant whimpering making excuses for a murdering god indicates to
me that you feel a need to defend him. Fundie or not, you are a deist and
when the call comes to defend your god from his obvious acts of terrorism,
you answer the call.
JB> (Descent into irrationality. I'm trying to _help_ you improve
JB> the accuracy of your anti-Biblical-God argument, you idiot.
JB> Near-End of conversation.)
Do you think I'm stupid? Your fundie like jump to defend your god shows
me that you indeed have an agenda.
JB> Obviously better than your understanding of English, or at least
JB> better than your willingness to accept what's said as
JB> actual.
JB> (End of conversation.)
You think. As a theist, you have shown that you have the ability to carve
out the words of the bible to suit your own meaning. Very amusing, but
hardly surprising.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 06 Mar 96 19:56:29
EID:86a9 20669f00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354b467
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 1f840148
JG> Excuse me but if you will check the message you are replying to,
JG> you will see he is making a distinction between "true"
JG> christians and people who just "call themselves" christians.
JG> So a true Christian is one who says " I am not going to
JG> participate in these Crusades because it is against the
JG> teachings of Christ". The ones who participate in something
JG> that goes against the teachings of christ might CLAIM they
"True Americans are those that will not join in voting for that commie Clinton
and vote for whoever the Republicans put up."
Does this look anything like your statement above? Does it make any more
sense?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 06 Mar 96 19:57:59
EID:ab7b 20669f20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354b581
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 1f84014a
JG> How very true. God is a spirit. But his spirit does speak to the
JG> spirits of men and then men right down what the spirit of god is
JG> saying to them.
Did you forget to preent your evidence for spirits?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OUR DAILY BREAD
|Date: 06 Mar 96 19:59:03
EID:4f56 20669f60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354bb5b
MG>> "O pardon me thou bleeding piece of Earth,
MG>> That I am meek and gentle with these butchers.
MG>> Thou are the ruins of the noblest man that ever lived in the
MG>> tide of
JB> And all this with NO typos. Did you scan it in, or are you ill?
Will deserves better than most.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:01:10
EID:4754 2066a020
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354bd8d
BJ> We don't have to look any further then this to find the truth.
The bible is true?
Why does it tell us that Pi=3.0?
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:02:24
EID:0bb0 2066a040
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354c02c
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313a216e
MG>> A "righteous" god would have prevented all your false
MG>> christian scum brethren from torturing, killing, waging war
MG>> and being general assholes in his name.
MG>> I guess he just wasn't up to the task.
AM> For many, in the end, it was there own undoing. Or as the
AM> french would
AM> say, they were hoisted by thier own petard.
Your god killed them. He did nothing to make the world perfect.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:03:31
EID:8ca5 2066a060
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354c450
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 313b5257
RJ> I saw a few minutes of it at work with the sound off and
RJ> the closed-caption lines across the bottom, but the
RJ> didn't exactly seem too skeptical, to be understated.
Heston is a fundy who's understanding of science would fit in a thimble
with room left over for a herd of rampaging elephants.
Since the Plauxy River stuff was shown to be a fraud, I believe that event
he ICR has backed off of it.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:06:32
EID:9473 2066a0c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354ca72
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89364397
MH> The ending of Mark which we now have, from 16:9 onward, does not
MH> appear in any manuscripts until the Middle Ages. It was not part
MH> of the gospel as originally written, and is therefore not
MH> Scripture.
Why do you claim this? Where did it come from? If the wource were legit,
why would you not consider it scripture?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:07:20
EID:f132 2066a0e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354d1b3
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89364398
MG>> responsible for Phaorh's decisions have to die?
MH> No one is "innocent." All have sinned.
Get off it. You have to insist that people are sinner and go to hell for
sins or at least are punsihed for them, then go ahead. My point is that
people that were innocent of Pharoh's sin were killed. How do you explain
this?
MH> Because God wants us to choose right for ourselves. In Egypt's
MH> case, he tried to nudge Pharoah in that direction. Pharoah
MH> wouldn't choose right for the sake of choosing right, and
MH> then he wouldn't choose right after God demonstrated his
MH> power with first benign miracles through Moses and Aaron,
MH> and then mild afflicitions. By the time God began unleashing
MH> genuine punishment, there was conciously chosen rebellion to
MH> punish.
So he murdered a large portion of the Egyptian population? There is no
reason, no excuse for god to kill these people because of Pharoh's decisions.
The allpowerful god would have simply softened Pharoh's heart instead of
hardening it. Wht kind of asshole works this way?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hardy's full of what-else as usual
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:11:28
EID:63f6 2066a160
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354d68f
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c6f
MH>> Even evolutionists admit there is little fossil evidence of
MH>> Darwinian evolution. Hence the need to invent punctuated
MH>> equilibrium.
FR> He's full of it. Biologists state that biology makes no sense
FR> if evolution didn't happen and continue to happen. I know of no
FR> biologist who claims that "there is little fossil evidence of
FR> Darwinian evolution."
His error is int he sue of the word "invented". It shows not only his ignorance
of science but his agenda in defending his nonexistant creator.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:12:51
EID:6ba3 2066a180
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354d890
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c70
mg>> is right and anyone that screams about unregistered softwre
mg>> on once hand should scream about it whenever they see it.
FR> It was a tag line. I've made it my origin line. }:-}
I didn't have anyone SPECIFIC in mind. :-)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:14:33
EID:2593 2066a1c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6354dfc7
AH> innocents are not harmed by those bad choices. Being omnipotent,
AH> God knows what the choices will be, and should thus be able to
AH> protect the innocent.
That's right, but I chose my cases carefully to fit the category of those
that die or suffer for reasons far beyond their control. If these clowns
wnat to claimt that their god gives us free will and punishes those that
sin, that's their problem. But I wnated to know why he would punish those
that suffer for reasons completely out of their control.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Naim
|Sub: Re: artificial reproducti
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:38:38
EID:8b55 20677cc0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 220ff015
-=> Quoting Andrew Naim to Jim Germiquet <=-
AN> But do you really think God wants this to happen? I mean like this
AN> isn't something like taking out a certain chromosome in a tomato so
AN> they are riper for an extra week. This artificial reproduction of
AN> humans can make a monstrous amount of overpopulation. There is already
AN> enough , poor , hungry , and sad people around , adding this overpop.
AN> just makes it harder , and harder for people to understand why problems
AN> like poverty and stuff can't be stopped...
It isn't overpopulation you have to worry about. Look at everything man's
technology has touched. Disasters, oil spills, nuclear accidents, killer
bees, deforestation and strip mining, fresh water pollution with chemicals
that can kill like mercury and dioxin, pcbs, phosphates, acid rain.
This is just another disaster waiting to happen. And of course tampering
with the "natural" method of "evolution" is sure to fit right in there
with all the other things we screwed up.
... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:38:39
EID:04b3 20677cc0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 220ff016
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Anything god does, he does becomes people demand it of him. That is
JG> why he had to send Jesus. because the jews had this thing about
JG> sacrificing something to god for forgiveness. So people couldn't
JG> accept gods forgiveness unless they sacrificed something for it.
JG> Its a ritual people like to take part in. STarted back in the garden
JG> of eden when adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
JG> Then he started making up these rules about how to make up for it when
JG> he did one of those "evil" things.
JG> So god sent jesus as a sacrifice so he would be accepted by the
JG> people. But he also sent jesus with a message.
JG> God is does not want sacrifices. He wants a willing and a contrite
JG> heart. Forget the sacrifices, just do what is right in the first place.
JG> Change your living habits.
JG> BE BORN AGAIN !
AM> There were sacrifices instituted by God. That was Moses primary
AM> revelation. But they were symbolic of the only sacrifice that would
AM> really do any good. Namely Christ.
AM>
The question is Why did he have to bother with all those sacrifices in
the past ? Because that is all primitive and savage man was capable of
understanding, the same with conquering them. As man became more
"civilized" he evolved to the point where he could understand the
teachings of Christ .
... Danger, Andrew Masten! Off-topic messages! Danger!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:38:43
EID:fb19 20677cc0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 220ff01a
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Jim Germiquet <=-
DM> Jim Germiquet said "Avoiding the Question" to Don Martin, adding:
JG> How about letting a "newbie" take a shot at this one.
DM> A newbie who has apparently not taken the time to read very much
DM> of this echo before officiously braying more than two dozen posts to
DM> straighten out the various people here, thereby making a terrific
DM> first impression.
I don't try to "straighten out" any people here although I realize that
the way I post may make it seem that way. These are MY PERSONAL OPINIONS
!
They are not ideas that I tell anyone else they have to believe.
"Officiously" I hold no office. I am not a bible scholar which should
be VERY obvious and I don't claim to be. Too many people just look up
bible verses so they can shoot people down in flames "officially" with
a quote from their favorite version of the bible. I am not into that.
I don't give two hoots whether you agree with me or not. I calls them as
"I" sees em. You ? Believe whatever you choose. Its fine by me. Hope you
afford me the same courtesy.
JG> God does NOT send "anyone" to hell.
DM> First things first. Got any non-Biblical evidence that the god
DM> you so limit has any existence outside of human imagination? If so,
DM> please present it: we can get to your character adjustments to the
DM> diety later.
DM> Oh, yeah, and lose the "quote" marks.
I like using quotes to emphasize words. I USED TO DO THIS !!!! ...:-)
... What do you mean? You actually read this tagline?!?
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:38:45
EID:bead 20677cc0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 220ff01c
JG> Well I believe Pat Robertson was a Marine,
DM> As was Oliver North and John Wayne Bobbit: surely SOME of them
DM> aren't assholes or felons. But then a service that preens itself on
DM> its testerone-laden fantasies does tend to attract the unbalanced
DM> types: brown shirt wannabees and latent heterosexuals.
Oh no not a draft dodging, flag burning, faggot pinkie traitor :-)
I am off course kidding up there and not trying to flame you :-)
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:38:46
EID:8213 20677cc0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 220ff01d
-=> Quoting Alan Hess to Jim Germiquet <=-
AH> Whilst masticating on , Jim Germiquet (1:2424/1004)
AH> wrote to Elliott Finesse:
JG> So a true Christian is one who says " I am not going to
AH> The only true Christians would be ones who followed Original Testament
AH> law, as Jesus did (up to and including the Last Seder.) The writers
of
AH> Testament II were thus not true Christians, as they stopped following
AH> certain laws and observing the holidays, meaning they were not
AH> Christ-like.
Jesus also said things like. My kingdom is not of this world.
Let the dead bury their dead. In regard to marriage in heaven
In heaven there is no male and female that is only for THIS physical
world. I don't think Jesus is impressed by the rituals and trappings
of churchiology that has grown out of some of the interpretations of
his teachings.
Again, only my uniformed, humble personal opinion. Feel free to
believe what you want.
... He who dies with the most TAGLINES wins!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:38:47
EID:2843 20677cc0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 220ff01e
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Jim Germiquet <=-
DM> Jim Germiquet said ""No True Christian..."" to Elliott Finesse,
DM> adding:
EF> Well I know it sounds logical, but it isn't. Why? Because by your
EF> definition, no Christian ever did an un-Christ-like act. Ever!
JG> Excuse me but if you will check the message you are replying to, you
JG> will see he is making a distinction between "true" christians and
JG> people who just "call themselves" christians.
DM> Read the FAQ. One of the most tired, fatuous evasions we get
DM> around here is the old "But he's not a real, TRUE Christian!"
DM> What you say here is yet another iteration of that local joke.
I understand completely.
DM> The funny part of the joke is that anyone claiming such a thing
DM> as being able to distinguish between real, TRUE Christians and
DM> the fakes (as you would appear to do here) necessarily must know
I apologize if it appears so. I really do not claim to be able to
tell any individual whether or not they are a "true" christian. All
I do say is that we know Jesus spoke of "wolves in sheeps clothing".
I do say that there are people who say they are christians while in
the act of blowing innocent women and children into bloody pieces
(IRA) , Whether they as individuals are "true christians" remains totally
and unequivocably between them and god in my books.
DM> what his god alone has the power of knowing--the sincerity of the
DM> profession. Paul Hill claims to be doing God's work when he blows an
DM> abortionist's brains out with a shotgun. You know otherwise?
Nope , only God can judge him on a spiritual level. On a social/legal
level is a different judgement.
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:38:48
EID:bf64 20677cc0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 220ff01f
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> God does NOT send "anyone" to hell.
DW> Fine. I refuse to go to Hell. What is God going to do with me?
Are you sure ? What if you don't realize you are going there? What?
Do you think there are big signs saying "Hell 10 kms" or Turn left
for Hell at the next intersection.
Do you think most drug addicts say to themselves. Hey I wanna take some
drugs so I can get into crime and prostitution and then experience the
wonderful pain of withdrawal symptoms when I dont have any money to get
my next fix ?
Do you think people say. Hey I think I will eat 20 twinkies a day for
the next ten years so I can get so obese I cant get out of bed and
I can have a massive coronary? Or gamblers think hey I can hardly
wait to lose all my money and go into tremendous debt so I can spend
my life dodging bill collecter till I get so depressed I blow my brains
out.
Do I need to ask you about alcoholics? Syphilus? or spouse abuse?
So to say "I refuse to go to hell" while doing the things that might
be leading you there, is not going to stop you from ending up there.
It is like being on a train to new york screaming I refuse to go to
new york.
In the meantime what god is doing is sending you messages to get
off the train.
Again I dont mean you personally because 1) I do not know you and 2)
I am not authorized to make such judegments, thats between you and god.
I am just making an illustration.
JG> Who is to say which one knows what it really means.
DW> Anyone who can read. The verses in question tell us that certain signs
DW> will follow true believers. Why have we not seen all these signs?
Maybe you aren't looking in the right places :-)
Maybe you refuse to believe it when it happens and call it a hoax :-)
Maybe there aren't any true believers :-)
Maybe the verse was taken out of context :-)
But anyone who feels they have to PROVE god to themselves or anyone else
by drinking poison by the very action proves instead that there is doubt.
A person who knows who they are and what they believe , doesnt have to
prove it to anyone.
... Back up my hard disk? I can't find the reverse switch!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:17:57
EID:df60 20666220
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> keep people in their sins. Water baptism is the re-birth of Water
MM> Wouldn't be Church of Christ would you?
Greetings.
No I don't belong to a church called Christ! I belong to the
United Pentecostal Church. Of course we do believe in Jesus Christ.
Do you believe in Jesus Christ?
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall [be damned].
For that matter do you know who Jesus is?
John 10:30 I and [Father are one].
Some people today don't take the time to read the bible, which is
God's word. They assume that their Pastor is telling the truth.
You must follow up on everything that is be taught to you.
Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind.
And if the blind [lead the blind], both shall fall into the ditch.
I hope this helps you out. I would suggest looking for a church
that is Acts 2:38 teachers.
Brad
... This BBS has achieved Air superiority.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: All
|Sub: Friends
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:17:58
EID:f138 20666220
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Greetings.
One and all! I do enjoy all the lovely messages I receive from
you. Many people have made me feel so welcome in this Religous
Debate echo. Some are so concerned with my well being it touches me
deeply. Yet there are others that would like me not to post here at
all. They offer me places to go, and give me directions.
I just offer the truth as far as I know it, quoting when ever
possible from the King James Bible. There is only one God we should
worship and that is Jesus Christ! God us told not to be deceived by
false teachers and devil worshippers. Beware of wolves in sheeps
clothing.
Lets all together now: Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!
Let him know your name and that you are loving him!
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Come on every one get saved, I would like to see you in Heaven some
day!
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Hamas
|Date: 07 Mar 96 02:56:42
EID:2f9e 20671700
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6358ac83
AH> How should Israel respond to this group, which obviously has no
AH> interest in peace, and simply wants to see the end of the State
AH> of Israel?
I suspect they have a shorter-term goal in mind with the current
rash of bombings. They want to goad Israel into bringing about the
end of the Palestinian state. And the Israelis seem more than
willing to comply.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:19:18
EID:42f5 20671a60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6358d8d3
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31315b34
SB>> I can top this. In San Mateo, CA, I went into a Jack In
SB>> The Box where, to my surprise, the counter person handed me
SB>> a sheet of paper with a pen and points to the paper and say
SB>> something in Spanish that I figured to mean: "Mark your
SB>> order, I'll ring it up."
SA> Heh. Actually, the card isn't a bad idea to help non-English
SA> speaking immigrants cope and work while they learn, though the
SA> card should really be bilingual. (I'd be totally mystified if
SA> presented with something like that in some non-European script,
SA> like Arabic or Chinese.)
I can actually order from a Spanish or Vietnamese menu. But I
point to the words for what I want, rather than murder them
with my Yankee pronunciation.
I can sometimes fake it with a Chinese menu if they have
anglicized spellings or little pictures of cows, pigs and
fish on the menu.
Not sure what I would do about Arabic. But I recently
discovered a little hole-in-the-wall (it's a converted
conveince store) Cuban place that doesn't mess with menus.
You'll eat what "Mama" wants you to eat. And they'll charge
you what they want to charge you. (I shit you not, the
price seems to depend on how well you are dressed and
wether they have paid the light bill yet this month or
not). The food is great though.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christian Blow Jobs
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:54:38
EID:cb8f 20671ec0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63592ee6
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca4
jjh>> Don't you just love it how Prewett can sit on his butt
jjh>> collecting assistance money while makeing pronouncements
jjh>> about how things should be in the workplace?
FR> Like, "Get them wimmin outa the work place?"
No, more like "Lets bring back child labor".
(Save the women for the more dangerous jobs.)
He sees all measures to insure fair treatment, wages or working
conditions as "government interference". John (like so many)
seems to forget that regulation like the Wage And Hour Act and
Occupational Safety And Health Act didn't just drop out of the
sky one day. They were in response to very real problems that
existed when businesses were allowed a completely free hand in
how they treated their employees.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Hi
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:08:46
EID:506c 20672100
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63593420
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 313d4865
KC> Please, continue. Tell me about my poor sex life, next. And
KC> how I don't have a life, posting in this medium.
Would you like to buy a new cliche' ?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Missing Child Alert - Sat
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:10:00
EID:5344 20672140
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63593b14
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89380E37
JH>> )\ _.___._ /(
JH>> /:|'##666##'|:\
JH>> / __ __ \
JH>> : __~\ /~__ :
JH>> ( ( .\ \|/ /. ) )
JH>> | \_~_) . (_~_/ |
JH>> (._ ~ /_\ ~ _.)
JH>> \\_._._._._//
JH>> \\V V V V//
JH>> \\.^.^.//
JH>> (_____)
JH>>
Satan at 15 Gee's.
DC> Now I recognize him! (just love what my OLR text editor
DC> does to graphics!)
I got a bit of a kick out of it myself.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Ray Talley
|Sub: just the fax
|Date: 07 Mar 96 11:52:16
EID:db2c 20675e80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 635d743b
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 313e7342
On Mar 04 00:28 96, Ray Talley of 1:121/45 wrote:
RT> Is it just me or has MH actually gotten more stupid? Or is
RT> it merely meaner?
He's a Republican. He'll get progressively worse in between now
and Novemeber. And then he'll stay that way for four more years.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Meanwhile back in the ozone...
|Date: 07 Mar 96 12:01:37
EID:60d0 20676020
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 635d99e8
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 313dc850
On Mar 06 12:16 96, Robert Jackson of 1:390/87 wrote:
RJ> Guffaw. I _just_ might be interested in monitoring the
RJ> echo again, as I mentioned Konehead's revelation of his
RJ> divinity in FLAME and a few of the lads in the ELA* got
RJ> a bit interested.
Nah... with Konehead out of the way the echo will be nothing
but lengthy (and scrambled) multi-part posts and Glenda plugging
the books, videos and tapes of whatever Butthead Messiah she
is following this week.
If Glenda had a lick of sense (HA!) she's open a bookstore and
sell that shit mailorder. She certainly has her finger on the
pulse of that particular specialty market. And she could probably
stay out of trouble with the Fido-Gods if she just used a little
more subtlty than climbing up on a milkcrate and hawking hematite
necklaces.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: Re: HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison List
|Date: 07 Mar 96 18:35:50
EID:526f 20679460
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 636136f0
On Mar 06 15:33 96, Christopher Baker of 1:374/14 wrote:
>> CB> Christopher Baker atheist Coca Cola Classic
>> CB> w/lime
>> With LIME ?
CB> absolutely! a twist of lime and you can drink them all
CB> night without bloating or hangover. [grin]
Ah.... you mean the fruit. (You old vegetable squeezer, you.)
I thought you were adding calcium carbonate to make it fizz
like a mad dog.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Captain AL SCHROEDER?
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:37:12
EID:64a7 206804a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63647e54
JH>> Where do all these super-heros get the title "Captain"?
JH>> Are they Merchant Marines? Officers of the local Police
JH>> department? Are they in the Navy? (Captain Midnight may
JH>> have been, but that's the only example I can think of who
JH>> may have gotten his "commission" the way most humans do.)
NS> Captain Midnight I'm not aware of.
Captain Midnight was a 1940's radio drama about a masked guy
who fought Nazis with the help of underage American boys and
girls. Just why these pre-teen sidekicks were running around
in occupied France was never fully explained.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Istambul paraphrased
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:48:10
EID:7443 20680600
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6364985b
REPLY: 1:352/266 313D25AC
MM> The fifth blind man encountered the elephants great leg and
MM> said, "Oh, Great Elephant is very like a tree. I can lean
MM> against it when tired. I can hide next to it from the wind
MM> and rain. I can feel its great strength."
MM> The sixth blind man encountered the elephants tail and
MM> said. "Oh, Great Elephant is very like a rope. One could
MM> hang onto him in dangerous times... one could also become
MM> entangled and dragged away. I'll tie a large knot and
MM> others can hang on more easily."
When the seventh blind man entered the enclosure, the elephant
farted. The blind man was quick to realize the signifigance of
this event: "Oh, the Elephant is like a cocktail lounge. He is
a Great B-A-R R-O-O-M!"
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 08 Mar 96 01:00:46
EID:3ae7 20680800
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6364b382
REPLY: 1:116/19 035AA426
RM>> And best yet, Asmodeus alternately claiming that a) he didn't
RM>> really curse J.J., b) the curse was just starting to grow, and
RM>> c) he missed and hit Al's drier.
AS> The whole thing should be archived into a FAQ or something.
I've got many of the messages either to or from Asmodeus saved.
Not included are most of my updates which were pretty redundant.
Also not included are messages ABOUT him, there were just too many
of them. In raw, unsorted, unorganized format it's still more than
200 K.
I may produce a synopsis one of these days, but it's not a high
priority.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: The Constitution of the USSR, 1977 part1
|Date: 08 Mar 96 01:16:02
EID:cd18 20680a00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6364d3d7
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31323d6a
SA>> THe following is, AFAIK, the ENTIRE Constitution of the
SA>> USSR, as ratified in 1977 under Brezhnev.
JH>> Could you post the Constitution of the Most Serene
JH>> Republic of San Marino next?
SA> Sorry. I was slightly miffed at Jesse's accusation that I
SA> couldn't provide any evidence of noble language in said
SA> constitution.
Actually, I saved the thing to disk. But it'll probably end
up in the Big Box Of Unindexed Unlabled Diskettes.
But you cant expect to post a monster wodge of text like that
without takeing some flak.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: URL!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 01:28:06
EID:baac 20680b80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63652129
REPLY: 1:116/19 02D381C6
AS> (Unless you are using "fundies" in a narrower sense than most of
AS> Holy Smoke...most here use it in the sense of "Christians",
AS> period. If you mean, say, snake-handlers and their ilk,
AS> perhaps, although I'm sure they have their several-generation
AS> families also.)
That is probably my favorite pet-peeve with this echo. To me the
term 'fundamentalist' is a very specific classification. No less
specific than "bat" or "bird".
It's not that I object to the word because it's being used as an
epithet (I rarely hesitate to fling my favorite epithets when
in the mood), but I deeply dislike seeing nomenclature being used
incorrectly. Especially when it deals with a subject that interests
me, such as unusual religious beliefs.
Fundamentalism has very specific characteristics that distinguish it
and make it distinct and unique when compared to other theological
movements. It is _ALWAYS_ Protestant. Saying a Catholic or Moslem
is a Fundamentalist makes my head do a triple Linda Blair barstool
spin. They are always Biblical Inerrantists and Premillenial
Dispensationalists (say it three times fast). And lastly, they are
always Separtists, they view the world as two large camps: "Us" and
"Them". The outside world is always viewed as an adversary.
If a person's theology doesn't meet all of the above points, they
are NOT a Fundamentalist, they may still be a wildass crazy nutball,
but they are not a Fundamentalist.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 01:58:32
EID:6834 20680f40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63654d76
JA> I can't even really explain it, cause everything kind of
JA> happened allat once. Suddenly, a question popped into my head,
JA> "Why would a god who supposedly loves everyone condemn so many
JA> to eternal suffering, even if we do make mistakes?" ANd then the
JA> questions just kept piling up and I realized then that what
JA> I believed made absolutely no sense whatsoever.
If I remember correctly, the first issue where you and I ended up
going head to head was over the Book of Jonah.
Do me a favor: read the book now with your new outlook on things.
You may agree with me this time; it's not a story about a big
fish, but a comedy that makes fun of a stubborn, head-up-his-butt
preacher who takes his religion just a little too seriously.
I'm no enemy of the Bible, it contains some really fine literature.
And Jonah is one of my favorites. Sure, it's a fable alright. But
it's still a good read.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: JOAN WOULD LIKE TO CLEAR
|Date: 08 Mar 96 02:11:26
EID:7057 20681160
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6365537d
->> Unless you happen to be Joan Crawford.
JA> Think I've heard of her before. Isn't she the one that
JA> "Mommy Dearest" movie is about?
Yup.
She was also the owner of PepsiCola for a while.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:06:10
EID:6038 2067a0c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313f8801
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Ed Dutkiewicz dinosaurs? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AG> Brother, they have carbon dated contemporary things to millions of
AG> years old. Just takle God at His Word.
PS>No, they haven't. C-14 dating is used on organic materials and never
for
PS>dates into the millions of years. They leave that to the uranium-lead
or
PS>potassium-argon methods.
ED> Carbon-14 dating is used to date "recent" objects. Recent meaning no
ED> more than 50,000 years.
This I know, as I was recently corrected on it.
ED> As far as dating contemporary things, one does get false old ages. For
True, but I tend to speak hastily regarding Anthony. I do that with people
who are irrefutably idiotic and don't seem to notice.
ED> example, the grass near a highway always shows that its millions years
ED> old, when one uses carbon 14 dating. This is due to the burning of
ED> fossil fuels which contributes to a higher ratio of "old" carbon(14)
ED> dioxide to carbon-12 dioxide.
Okay. Just for gags, where's your reference? Not that I'm doubting you;
it
sounds perfectly plausible. I'd just like to have something to CMA with
should I pass this along.
... "Bother," said Pooh as he was frozen in carbonite.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:06:10
EID:cb67 2067a0c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313f8802
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Brad Jackson Bible wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> Greetings!
BJ> The bible is inspired by God!
Greetings!
Many of Douglas Coupland's novels may have been inspired by sleep
deprivation.
BJ> 2 Timothy 3:16
BJ> All scripture given by [inspiration] of God, and
BJ> profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
BJ> instruction in righteousness:
This is patently absurd. One might as well say that because certain tales
that are obviously fiction purport to be utterly true, then they are. When
looking for evidence corroborating the veracity of a given document, one
doesn't turn to the document itself to explain unless one is extremely
stupid. One looks for corroborating external evidence.
BJ> We don't have to look any further then this to find the truth.
I take it that you are using the pronoun "we" to refer to "People such
as myself who are using a rotten cabbage or perhaps half a squash as
a brain."
... Insanity is for those incapable of handling Cthulhu.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Heavenly Father
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:06:10
EID:ea39 2067a0c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313f8803
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Brad Jackson Heavenly Father wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> Greetings!
BJ> God is a spirit. The creator of all things, and the father of
BJ> all humanity by creation.
I'd ask for non-Biblical evidence, but I know you couldn't give it to me.
BJ> He is the first and the last, and besides him there is no God.
Then why do the commandments mention other gods?
... "Natural laws have no pity." -- Heinlein
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:06:10
EID:d2f6 2067a0c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313f8804
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Don Martin Cult Christianity wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DM> I have been brooding a bit about this non-issue lately, finding
DM> it somewhat offensive without knowing why. To me, one of the great
I too find it offensive, but I do know why. It seems to insinuate in a
somewhat subtle way that a person's skin color has something to do with
their personality. In the broadest possible terms this is just possible;
if someone has been horribly discriminated against on the basis of skin
color and has suffered a warping of personality that would not have
otherwise occurred, then one *might* say that that person's color had an
effect on the victim's personality. But such a statement is pointless,
and therefore insulting to me personally because it is useless and is
utterly without any sort of value. It puts me in mind of something I saw
at school one day; a friend of mine and I were leaving his dorm room
and we saw that someone had sprayed the words "SAE SUX" rather artlessly
on one of the security doors. Our reactions were immediate and identical:
we were offended, but not because we were SAEs (we're not); rather, we were
offended because it was such a stupid thing to say and expressed in such
an
idiotic and destructive fashion. It offended us as intelligent people.
DM> delights of this medium is that you deal directly with the person's
DM> mind (or lack thereof) without having the foggiest notion of his
DM> rrace, color, creed, gender, or whatever unless he/she chose to make
DM> any of that stuff known. People who express themselves intelligently
And I am extremely thankful for this. What good does it do *anyone*
out there to know that I can pass as a standard-issue Caucasian even
though I'm one-quarter Japanese? Or that I have glasses and dress much
the way any other late twentieth-century college student might? The way
I look has so very little to do with my personality that the effect is
nearly negligible. At most, one might glean a bit of information regarding
my background and possible environmental influences on my personality from
my appearance--but since I usually strive for inconspicuousness, such
information is not easily forthcoming.
DM> tend to get thoughtful replies, fundies tend to get bashed, and all
DM> is right with the world. Now comes George to fret about our failure
DM> to meet some Affirmative Action quota on a criterion, skin color, we
DM> cannot see. What is the point?
There is no point. It is sound and fury, signifying nothing.
DM> The influence of the puritans on American culture is pernicious
DM> and widespread. We atheists practice a form of Calvinism when we
DM> attack fundies--it is very cerebral, and intellectually oriented. I
DM> think you could say of Calvin that he offers a perfection
DM> rationalization of the faith, and that that is both his great
DM> strength and the greatest damage ever done to Christianity. The
DM> happiest religions are probably the most non-intellectualized.
I agree with you completely. In my mind, the purposes of any religion with
a hierarchy should be as follows (in no particular order):
1. To provide emotional support for the needy, those who cannot for some
reason or another stand on their own either in day-to-day life or under
stressful circumstances.
2. To provide an expression for emotion that would not otherwise exist
in a given culture.
Unfortunately, religion is also used for a third purpose, that being to
control the masses. It is not always used this way, but it frequently is
and it's rather good at it.
Those are the benefits of an emotional brand of religion. Intellectual
religions, IMO, don't serve much of a purpose. Being intellectual, they
appeal best to thinking human beings, and thinking human beings are, as
far as my experience goes, not as likely as the average joe to get roped
into a religion. Therefore, IMO, intellectual religions are very nearly
oxymorons and self-defeating. Religion shouldn't be about thinking your
way into a state of religious bliss. It's about providing a release, even
for a little while, from what Shakespeare referred to as the slings and
arrows of outrageous fortune.
... Join Campus Crusade for Cthulhu, call 1-800-OLD-ONES TODAY!!!!!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:06:10
EID:0795 2067a0c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313f8805
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dan Ceppa Tennessee Commandments wgah'nagl fhtagn.
RS> The Tennessee Senate has approved, 27-1, a resolution urging
RS> homes, businesses, places of worship and schools to post and observe
DC> Fortunately, at this time. it is only "urging".
The way I heard it, it was a statute (not a law. Statutes are merely legal
suggestions, or so I'm told) posited by the governor. Basically, we can
ignore it because there's no way it would get passed into law (can you
say "unconstitutional"? I knew you could), but it is indeed a frightening
indication of our leaders' willingness to prostitute themselves to the
Religious Right.
RS> Encouraging SCHOOLS to post a religious document? Don't they ever
RS> learn their lessons about the First Amendment?
DC> They are trying to circumvent that document.
I am at the moment unsure of the status of the recent bill that went to
the Tennessee Senate to make it a crime to teach evolution as a fact. If
it passed, then the State Supreme Court should by all rights blow it to
hell. That's a bald circumvention of the First Amendment of the U. S.
Constitution and also against the State Constitution. Sheesh.
... "I dunno, I'm making this up as I go." -I. Jones
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:06:11
EID:a47e 2067a0c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313f8806
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Andrew Masten Evidence wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> believe in than the story of creation and should be called the
JG> religion of evolution :-)
AM> Jim, your not gonna make alot of friends in this echo. But I like
AM> your hudspa.
"hudspa"? Are you perhaps trying to spell "chutzpah"?
... "I've changed my mind, Hobbes. People are scum." -- Calvin
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Roadrunner
|Sub: Re: Baha'i
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:06:11
EID:56ae 2067a0c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313f8807
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Roadrunner Re: Baha'i wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Oh, it's you, our resident jackass. Would you mind leaving the city of
Memphis, assuming that you live here? You're reducing the average IQ
by an unacceptable margin.
KD> Some of our fundies here have stated that the supposed deaths of
KD> early Christians for their god is evidence that it is true. Well...
KD> I've found another faith, with far more evidence that the people
KD> actually DIED [it happened in the last century]. The Baha'i. Consider
KD> also that Joseph Smith and many other Mormons were killed in the 19th
KD> and 20th centuries without recanting their faith.
Ro> Where do you "kikes, hebes, hymies" get-off calling Christians
Ro> "fundies"?
Where do you "fundies, cretins, cross-freaks" get off calling
Jews "kikes, hebes, hymies"?
Now that I've gotten that little bit of mocking out of the way, would you
mind explaining how a cowardly shit such as yourself (who hasn't apparently
even got the fortitude required to use a real name) can carry on any
sort of intelligible conversation in view of your little "hit and run"
raids here? You're a prime example of why some animals eat their young,
junior. Would you be so kind as to drag your sorry ass out of this
forum, preferably to a locale more suited to your personality (such as
ground zero of an atomic test, possibly a rail line, or even a busy
intersection if you are unable to find your way to either of the first
two exotic spots)?
... I see that your second lobotomy finally took hold.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:27
EID:cb7e 20680620
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313fca75
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Joanna Amren URL! wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JA> Nah...too much. I can't even really explain it, cause everything kind
JA> of happened allat once. Suddenly, a question popped into my head,
JA> "Why would a god who supposedly loves everyone condemn so many to
JA> eternal suffering, even if we do make mistakes?" ANd then the
JA> questions just kept piling up and I realized then that what I believed
JA> made absolutely no sense whatsoever. (In a nutshell.) :) But, the
JA> good news is, I didn't ever get back on that medication.
If you've managed to deal with whatever problems you've been experiencing
without having to resort to medication, then kudos to you. But remember
that the drugfree route is not an easy one and you will doubtlessly wish
to be on the meds more than once, especially on rotten days. There is
some comfort to be found in the oblivion of sheer apathy, but it isn't
healthy and if you can find a better way to do it, then do it.
Just remember: medications these days aren't as harsh as they used to be.
If you feel that you can't handle it alone for whatever reason, see about
getting on some of the milder meds. It means slavery to a bottle, but
better that than death or insanity.
... Famous last words: "Magic users are WIMPS!"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:27
EID:1fe8 20680620
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313fca76
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: a theist hypocrisy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> I think that if you allow a Hitler to kill people, then you in effect
JG> are also guilty of those deaths for allowing it to happen. I think
Thank you. You have just charged God with crimes against humanity.
JG> that protecting yourself from an aggressor can hardly be compared with
JG> taking up a sword and hacking away at your neighbor.
The only difference in the situations you describe lies in semantics.
Depending on the definition of "neighbor," then "...protecting yourself
from an aggressor" could most certainly be called "taking up a sword
and hacking away at your neighbor." Oh, I know you probably meant to
say that the second situation was an unprovoked attack, but you really
must be careful when dealing with language that is less than precise.
JG> Your so called "dirt" didn't impress me. In fact it makes him look
JG> like a saint in light of the dirt that has been dug up of one of
JG> Americans greatest heros John F. Kennedy. If you are looking for dirt
I
"Americans [sic] greatest heros." Rubbish. Kennedy wasn't a hero. He got
elevated to the status of martyr because he was probably the last president
in this country (until Reagan) whose people genuinely loved him. Ever since
then, with few exceptions, it's been a case of picking the lesser of two
evils. Kennedy didn't do much worthwhile in his term, and he certainly
didn't do anything that couldn't have been accomplished by another
president. What he did do was give an entire generation the image of a man
who was struck down in his prime, the classic hero who is slain before
he can accomplish his greatest good.
In the end, Kennedy was just a man. He was shot and killed, and that is
a shame. But it does not make him a hero.
JG> am sure you can find some on all of us. "For ALL have sinned and fall
JG> far short of the glory of God." And when you can't find enough you can
JG> misconstrue things and make them LOOK dirty when they in fact are not.
If all have sinned, then every miscarried child goes to hell, as they
are sinners who die without being saved. Bummer of a thought, isn't it?
JG> These ones are obviously sick individuals. Children may provide the
JG> "innocence" in life they seek and so they are attracted to them. Then
JG> they confuse this love with the sexual love.
JG> I think much of it is just they cannot resist also with the power,
JG> the "opportunity". It is very sad.
No, the power element is pretty much the primary factor. Pedophiles are
into powertripping, not sexual gratification.
... "Moderator" is just the network AKA for Cthulhu.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:28
EID:d538 20680620
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313fca77
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: double standard alert wgah'nagl fhtagn.
GR> Hell! I'm an atheist, last wallet I found, I returned to the owner
GR> with all the money. The fundie I returned it to was shocked that
GR> nothing was taken.
JG> Me too. But I just handed it into the proper authorities and never
JG> heard from the owner.
JG> Isn't that a surprise concidering I refer to myself as a Christian.
JG> According to Karen all Christians seem to be murdering, lieing,
JG> thieves.
Given the depredations of various "holy men" glorified in the Bible and
self-proclaimed Christians (who are we to question? How could we know
otherwise?) both past and present, can you blame her?
... Columbus had a fourth ship...it sailed over the edge.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:28
EID:9f9e 20680620
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313fca78
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS" wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> Creationism has it's place in the social studies and history classes.
Better still, relegate it to Bible studies classes. It doesn't count as
history.
... Famous last words: I shall assume full responsibility for losing them.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876
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SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Baptism
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:28
EID:8ae8 20680620
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313fca79
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Brad Jackson Re: Baptism wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> You seem to think God has mad mistakes, when know in your heart
BJ> he hasn't! You only fight against God because of the devil, if you
People don't know things in their hearts unless someone has released
h. sapiens sapiens version 2.0.
BJ> could only realize this you would be so much closer to finding out
BJ> the truth.
Ah, so we're all mere puppets on the stage of life. I smell a control
freak, and it isn't me.
BJ> God loves us so much he came down and lived amoung us. His
He loves us so much that he killed almost everything on earth trying to
get rid of sin, and screwed it up anyway. Some god you worship.
BJ> flesh even died on the cross for our sins. He will help you if you
And was back in action barely 48 hours later. Point?
BJ> You see Shelby, he is waiting for you and any one else that truly
BJ> looks for him.
I looked for him for years. I didn't find him. Is he playing hide and go
seek with me?
BJ> Shelby God is the same from the beginning of the bible start through
BJ> to the end of it, once you understand this you will have peace
BJ> knowing you can trust in Jesus.
This statement is obviously one made by someone ignorant of the Bible. The
God of the OT is a bloodthirsty, egotistical maniac who slew nations and
leveled regions at the drop of a hat. The God of the NT is responsible for
a much lower body count but says with a nice saccharin smile that you'd
better worship him or else.
... With a god like Jehovah, who needs a Devil?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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12/240 3615/7 3619/25
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Hamas
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:28
EID:6b7b 20680620
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313fca7a
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Alan Hess Hamas wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AH> Hamas, that lovely band of Islamic fundy nuts, has returned to their
AH> old ways of blowing up innocent people (at this point, mainly Israelis
AH> - four terrorist attacks in 10 days.) How should Israel respond to
AH> this group, which obviously has no interest in peace, and simply wants
AH> to see the end of the State of Israel? How should the peace-inclined
AH> Palestinians respond? *adh*
If it were any of my business, I'd say that the Israelis need to remember
that not every Palestinian is an enemy to be shot on sight. Regarding the
elements of Hamas who are responsible for these crimes, I think that
nailing them to stakes and setting them on fire would probably be a suitable
treatment.
... Funny Name: Naughtybird Curtsey.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:28
EID:a47e 20680620
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313fca7b
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Andrew Masten Evidence wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DW> *After* you build a nice, big church building. *After* you pay your
DW> minister to do what he should do out of the kindness of his heart.
DW> *After* you make payments on your new car, the mortgage on your pricey
DW> home, the payments on your credit cards, etc.
DW> Got to take care of #1 first, right?
AM> Your just projecting your own nature into someone else.
It's a better depiction of reality than you obviously care to admit.
DW> Our government is feeding two-thirds of Russia. Did you have a point
DW> to make?
AM> I'm talking about our welfare system that spends 80% on
AM> administrative costs and 20% actually gets in the hands of the
AM> recipients. Thats not cost effective.
It's a bureaucracy. Were you expecting efficiency?
... TV TRUTH: You can get 200 shots out of a six-shooter.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: children
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:29
EID:072a 20680620
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 313fca7c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet children wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> In terms of "illegal" abortions, the woman is not "forced" to die. In
JG> those days, the woman chose to do something illegal to avoid the
JG> responsibility inherent in having a child.
It boils down to making a "lesser of two evils choice."
Consider it this way: Getting every teenager to swear abstinence and
stick with it is a quest whose futility is extreme. Of the teenagers
who are going to have sex, many are going to use some form of contraception.
Many are not. Of those who are not, those people are most likely to be
from backgrounds of low socioeconomic and educational class. In other
words, the poor and the uneducated are more likely to have sex without
contraceptives than are the rich and the educated. This is their fault,
but it is also the society's fault for keeping those people stupid. And
the reason why society keeps them stupid in that regard is because we
have such a puritanical society. Teaching people to be ashamed of their
own bodies is an idiotic thing to do, a hangover from the days when
people took the Bible seriously and thought it to be a solution to every
problem that could arise. That's fine for people who want a culture that
is stagnant and primitive. It doesn't work in a technological and
industrialized era.
What happens when the poor continue to breed more or less out of control
and the rich do not? It's simple, really. One builds a pyramidal society.
There's a large pool of people who are largely condemned by the station
of their birth to be poor and uneducated; the obstacles facing them are
going to be enormous and most of them will not be able to pass some of
them, let alone all of them. Since their numbers increase and they are
bereft of the basic education necessary to improve themselves, then they
will always be at the bottom, and a self-perpetuating cycle occurs.
Abortion's a nasty thing. I wish that it never had to happen. But it
does happen because people are people and because there are a lot of
factors involved in the equation, far more than the ones presented by
most anti-abortionists. Do we want to keep those people poor and
downtrodden, perfect victims for mind-controlling ideologies (such as
certain brands of Christianity), or do we want to work on some way
of improving the lot of humanity so that these things don't have to
happen anymore?
... A Red Dragon? I pull out my Wand of Marshmallows.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: fax
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:17
EID:8cb5 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14310ff8
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
MH> What we need is an atheist with the ability to understand simple ideas.
I understand that religion is a simple idea. For simple
minds. If we fancy ourselves sophisticated, let's get
over the simple idea of religion.
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:17
EID:fe32 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14310ff9
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
MH> This is the heart of my thesis regarding atheistic morality -- not
that
MH> atheists have no morals, but that atheists have no reason to have
MH> morals if they choose not to. That point I'm willing to defend and
MH> debate.
Atheist morality has the same source as theist morality-
tradition and indoctrination. Despite my godless upbringing,
I was taught a code of ethics (just as you were). It's not
my fault that a naturalist world view based on empathy and
reason is superior to religious dogma.
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:17
EID:70fa 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14310ffa
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
MH> Jesus, in contrast, didn't *say* anything that his followers died for.
MH> Something *happened* to him after his death that convinced his
MH> followers he had returned from the dead.
How many people have claimed they have seen a ghost? Or a
deceased loved one? If the ghost in question has certain
claims to divinity, that could spark some really bizarre
behavior among the ghost sighters.
You're basing your life's ideology on the claims of ancient,
superstitious, fanatic goat herders. I don't have THAT much
faith in my NEIGHBOR'S testimony (and he's a well-educated
insurance salesman- ok, subtract one for insurance salesman).
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:17
EID:758f 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14310ffb
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
AM> RB> You are correct. It is evidence that they 'believed'. Some
AM> RB> people 'believe' they've been abducted by aliens. Are you willing
AM> RB> to accept THEIR beliefs?
AM>
AM> If, on threat of execution by torture, they did not recant, I would
be
AM> compelled to believe they were not fabricating a story.
I didn't say they WERE fabricating it. One can fervently believe
something without it being true. Or do you equate 'degree of truth'
with 'degree of belief'?
I suspect there's more than a few Muslims (and other religious
devotees) who would undergo torture and not recant their beliefs.
Does that make Mohammed the 'real thing'?
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Acute: Opposite of a ugly
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:18
EID:cfd4 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14310ffc
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
JG> Dinosaurs weren't allowed in the Garden , and by the time Adam and
JG> Eve had eaten from the forbidden tree, the dinosaurs had become
JG> extinct :-)
Actually, a dinosaur ate the forbidden fruit before Eve did.
And when all the dinosaurs saw their dinosaur dicks and their
dinosaur pussies, they died of embarrassment.
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Astronomer: A night watchman
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:18
EID:3491 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14310ffd
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
JG> In both of the above paragraphs I ask the question what is the use
JG> of anything outside of man's ability to define it. WHat is beauty?
JG> What is beauty to me may be beastly to you. Definition , definition,
JG> definition. What good is a universe unless there is a sentient being
JG> who can appreciate it and even understand that it exists.?
What good are ants? Do they feel joy? Sadness? Love? Do
they reminisce about the good old days? And yet, they go
about their business of surviving with all the intensity of
a God-made human. There is no purpose. It simply is.
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:18
EID:0537 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14310ffe
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
JG> What is wrong with being simple minded ? I like the idea? The
JG> simpler the better. WHy try to make things complicated if they
JG> don't have to be.
If you cherish simplicity, may I be the first to invite you to
atheism? The introduction of gods is an unnecessary complication.
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Astronomer: A night watchman
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:18
EID:8b11 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14310fff
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
JG> MH> That was after the eighth plague. By that time, God had chosen
to
JG> MH> make an example of him -- inspired by his hardening his own heart
over
JG> MH> the first five plagues.
JG>
JG> MH> All Pharoah had to do was free the Hebrews and repent before their
JG> MH> God OF HIS OWN FREE WILL BEFORE GOD HAD TO RESORT TO REPEATED COERCION
JG> MH> and I've no doubt that God would have forgiven him and blessed
his
JG> MH> people.
JG>
JG> What are we suppose to feel sorry for the Pharoah and Curse God for
JG> his wretched treatment of the Pharoah ?
Whatever happened to that 'free will' thing?
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Alimony: The screwing you get for the screwing you got
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:19
EID:9067 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14311000
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
JG> Would you prefer they encouraged people to bear and keep arms.
JG> Lower the drinking and and legalize marijuana ?
That last one has potential.
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Acute: Opposite of a ugly
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Tithe
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:19
EID:ee3b 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14311001
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
JG> Are all religious people suppose to dress in sack cloth and ashes and
JG> eat bread and water and give the rest of the money to the poor ?
An excellent idea!
JG> Should a christian bricklayer not get paid as much as a non christian
JG> bricklayer ?
He should be paid the same but he should give half to
unemployed bricklayers.
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: troll
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:19
EID:cb8f 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14311002
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
JG> I thought "trolling" was another word for "fishing". Jesus said I will
JG> make you fishers of men if you follow me.
I'm not biting. (The lure looks like it's made out of plastic)
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Bachelor: One who's footloose and fiancee free
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: the true nature of christ
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:19
EID:0c7c 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14311003
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
RS> After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that most if not
all
RS> Christians are self-centered son of a bitches. It would seem to me
that th
RS> do not worship their god for the sake and `glory' of the action, but
rather
RS> they're attempting to save their own asses from eternal hellfire and
such.
RS>
RS> It's a pity that I have had to expose them like this. The truth always
hur
How many Christians would there be without the enticement
of heaven and the threat of hell?
Could it be that a great many 'humble, loving and moral'
Christians are motivated by extreme self-interest?
Maybe when they ask "How can you be moral without God?",
what they really mean is "How can you be moral if nothing's
in it for you?"
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Monty Arch
|Sub: Angels
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:30:20
EID:933e 2067b3c0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14311004
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 208 days
MA> I have a guardian angel that pulled me back from oncoming traffic, which
I
MA> stepping out from between parked cars.
Would his name be Saint Jaywalker?
-!-
ţ NFX v1.3 [000] Acute: Opposite of a ugly
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 02 Mar 96 20:37:00
EID:6232 2062a4a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1f144b50
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 137906a0
PID: FM 2.02
> Ten Commandments boosted
> The Tennessee Senate has approved, 27-1, a resolution urging homes,
> businesses, places of worship and schools to post and observe the Ten
> Commandments, despite an opinion of the state attorney general that the
> resolution is unconstitutional.
The key here is "urging".
So long as there's no __compulsion__, the First Amendment is preserved "in
litero". But, you're right: it IS pushing the envelope, and damn deliberately.
> The sponsor, state Sen. Ben Atchley, a Knoxville Republican who is
> the majority leader, said the resolution was an effort to reaffirm moral
> standards. The measure, passed Wednesday, now goes to the House, where
> passage is expected.
> State Sen. Steve Cohen, a Democrat who was the only senator to vote
> against the resolution, said the vote was an alarming indication of the
> rising power of the religious Right.
Interesting that this should come from a Cohen -- the remnant of the Tribe
of Levi, who are the rightful owner of the COPYRIGHT to the 10-C!!
Moses was a Cohen, remember!!
> -=-=-=-
> Encouraging SCHOOLS to post a religious document? Don't they ever learn
> their lessons about the First Amendment?
> Even better -- encouraging places of worship to do it. So now we have
> the government telling religious institutions how to run their religion.
> And people wonder why we need church/state separation...
With the education of children being a monopoly of the State side of things.
The future of the human race depends on children ALL bearing REAL educations.
And cultic indoctrination centers CANNOT impart that, for reasons obvious
to both of us.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Atheist Hypocrisy
|Date: 02 Mar 96 20:42:01
EID:479f 2062a540
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1f144b51
PID: FM 2.02
>-> >SA> That would mean double, right? >SA> I haven't seen atheists
>-> claiming that the act of using shareware >SA> beyond cutoff date is
>-> wrong. What I've seen is atheists pointing >SA> out that doing so is
>-> a violation of the fundy commandment which >SA> deals with theft.
>-> The only double standard is therefor, that of >SA> the fundy who
>-> bootlegs.
> I don't agree. The commandment is "Thou shalt not covet thy
> neighbor's (stuff)". Using shareware without paying for it doesn't
> violate that commandment any more than it violates the present laws.
You are correct here.
You see, usage of shareware against the creator's permission DOES violate
the present civil laws.
> You haven't taken anyone's possessions away from them.
FALSE. Intellectual property is LABOR and MONEY. It is property, and the
Biblical Commandments regarding property in general apply to it.
> The Hebrews didn't even have the concept of copyright.
Immaterial. The Commandment says: "Thou shalt not steal." For such purposes,
property is property is property -- it matters not what said property consists
of.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Big bird
|Date: 03 Mar 96 22:06:04
EID:592a 2063b0c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1f95dd8f
PID: FM 2.02
> FR> Actually, Jim, any hate group you can point to which hates blacks
and
> FR> gays is going to be a Christanic group -- one of _your_ ideological
> FR> friends. Hatred and bigotry is nearly the venue of the deity
> FR> religious.
> MM> Have you ever realized how discrimination is deeply engrained in
our
> MM> culture? Sadly, I watched a child singing along with Big Bird, "One
> MM> of these things. is not like the others. One of these things just
> MM> doesn't belong" Scarey thoughts. Regardless of the religious
> MM> connotations, discrimination and intollerance begins it's training
> MM> very early in innocent ways all through our society.
> Uhm, unless Big Bird and the child were standing in front of a
> poster with mixed racial or ethnic or sexual types on it, you're
> confusing discrimination with discernment.
As the confusion between them in ADULT parlance testifies, it's DAMN difficult
to teach one with no risk of the other.
Cross-application of ideas is a human trait. It doesn't go away.
> A child needs to know how to tell and apple from an orange,
> especially if he's allergic.
And he also needs to know the difference between apples and vacuum, too..
:-)
> This is discernment. It is not the exact same as discrimination.
But the two aren't always easily separated.
A better idea would be: an apple amongst the oranges; an orange amongst
the apples. Big Bird sings his line. The kids point out the one that "doesn't
belong", AND THEN watch as the apple is put WITH apples and the orange with
oranges.
The inclusive move would be a good idea, cumma think about it.......
> ... 1st great joke on society by the Scots: They call bagpipes music...
Bagpipes ARE music, son.
And one savours Scotch for the taste.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Haggispam!! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Cookies as cures.
|Date: 03 Mar 96 22:19:05
EID:33cf 2063b260
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1f962f6a
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89350EF1
PID: FM 2.02
>-> On 02-28-96 17:23, Masochistic Maiden got back to John Prewett
> JP> Maybe you could persuade killers to stop being killers
> JP> by promising to bake them some chocolate cookies each
> JP> day they refrain from killing someone.
> MM> chocolate cookie cures has passed. However, I do remember a lot of
> MM> discussions with my father that helped me evaluate my own value
> MM> system.... and now that I think of it.... a lot of those were over
> MM> fresh hot chocolate chip cookies.... Tollhouse in fact.
> For someone claiming to try to stick to the facts and the ideologies,
> you are doing a miserable job.
AHEM.
The products of seeds of the genus __Theobrannica__ ARE an ideology!!
God Dan it!! :-)
> Good thing that you aren't trying
> to bake John on a cookie sheet to make an example out of him.
In Rome. At the Vatican.
DON'T get me started!! :-)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Double Standard Alert
|Date: 04 Mar 96 20:17:06
EID:c7a7 2064a220
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 201428a4
PID: FM 2.02
>-> Jesus cultism does NOT have the right to exist, Mikey. And it is one
>-> of three religions on Earth of which this can correctly be claimed.
>-> (The other two are Islam Creed Of Air Terrorists, and Judaism.)
> Why doesn't it have the right to exist? More correctly, why don't
> people have the right to follow these particular cults as opposed to
> say, Nichiren, Ufolatry, or Scientology?
Because the three I cited -- and them alone -- constitute threats to their
adherents' neighbors' prior rights to live their own lives their own way
in peace. Not even the most coercive of the three you cited -- $cientology
-- is starting worldwide jihads to force everyone on the Planet to convert
or die. The Nichiren Buddhists aren't insisting that their religious taboos
be enacted as our civil laws. And the UFOlogists aren't blowing up airplanes
and holding innocent officeworkers hostage for a year and a half.
Moreover, in the case of evangelical Protestant Christianity, the mere adoption
of said religion ALONE does damage to the religionist's neighbors' rights
and personal freedoms. The same can be said, in a lesser degree, about Judaism
and Islam.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: NOT a Ringer, I swear!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 20:29:07
EID:0d8b 2064a3a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 201428a5
PID: FM 2.02
> Kenneth Mcabee > George Rudzinski : NOT a Ringer, I swear!
also wik Norbert Sikes
> KM> I will accept the word on my Saviour Matthew 4:7.
> Your Savior is Matthew? Now THAT'S a serious schism in the Church
> . . .
Your Saviour is Matthew??
You're in DEEP TROUBLE!! :-)
love -- me
~!~ Why do I bath you, Matthew??
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: All
|Sub: Christian Coalition Candidate's County Campaign Chief Crashes!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 20:44:08
EID:9acf 2065a580
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2094a5f9
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "Alternative News"
* Originally by zuma@primenet.com
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 29 Feb 1996, 21:00
From: Zuma
Date: 29 Feb 1996 22:00:03 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)395-1010
Sender: root@primenet.com
The Christian Coalition is a bigoted, evil, collection of nitwits headed
by
a scum-sucker called Pat Robertson, with help from his peronal eunuch,
Ralph Reed. It's goal is to see a society like IRAN where the religious
leaders are also the political leaders and control all aspects of an
individual's life.
They do support anyone who will advance the twisted concepts of their
self-made "christian religion" which has nothing in common with the man
for whom they pretent to worship as a GOD. They exist for the purpose of
scamming mainly older citizens or individuals of limited intelligence -
(regardless of education or degrees held) much the same as a good
telemarketer selling one of the many cons out there to the same type of
suckers who always seem to fall for these smooth talking charlatans.
Nothing: not overpopulation, a possible nuclear accident or terrorist
attack, global warming, food shortages, disease, rape, murder, the
revival of communism, or any type of natural disaster can even begin to
approach the danger to those of us who enjoy our constitutionally given
individual rights and freedoms as these sexually-repressed, religiously
oriented "witch doctors" whose purpose in life is to make everyone else
as miserable as they are.
This post came to me from GOD. GOD told me to post it wherever a
reference is made about the CC or its bigoted, blasphemous, insipid
leaders or followers. Feel free to cut and repost at will - for you will
be doing GOD's will.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: All
|Sub: 20 Most Disgusting Careers
|Date: 05 Mar 96 20:59:10
EID:7ae5 2065a760
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2094a5fb
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "Alternative News"
* Originally by Joe DeLassus
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 3 Mar 1996, 3:03
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:22:59 -0500
Reply-To: "Hank Roth's Progressive List [& PNEWS CONFERENCES]"
Sender: "Hank Roth's Progressive List [& PNEWS CONFERENCES]"
From: eskinews!aol.com!SStone2072
TWENTY MOST DISGUSTING CAREERS IN THE UNIVERSE
1- Tobacco Corporation Lawyers.
2- Lawyer Politicians.
3- Lawyer Lobbyists.
4- Tax Lawyers.
5- Actors who aren't lawyers, but play one on TV.
6- Tobacco Corporation Advertisers.
7- Lawyers who advertise.
8- Advertisers for lawyers.
9- Divorce Lawyers.
10- Nazi doctors that experimented on Jewish and Gypsy children without
anesthesia, who fathered Lawyers.
11- Serial murderers.
12- Lawyers who defend serial murderers.
13- Lawyers who are serial murderers.
14- Lawyers who defend serial murdering lawyers.
15- Organic farmers who supply Johnny Cochran with healthfull food.
16- Pimps.
17- Pimps who get a law degree in prison.
18- Child pornographers.
19- Kiddy Porn directors.
20- Porn directors who dress up children to look like lawyers.
J2
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Norbert Sikes
|Sub: NOT a Ringer, I swear!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:01:11
EID:ce37 2065a820
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2094a5fc
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "Holy Smoke!"
* Originally by Sean McCullough
* Originally to Gwenny the Pooh
* Originally dated 4 Mar 1996, 20:29
> Kenneth Mcabee > George Rudzinski : NOT a Ringer, I swear!
also wik Norbert Sikes
> KM> I will accept the word on my Saviour Matthew 4:7.
> Your Savior is Matthew? Now THAT'S a serious schism in the Church
> . . .
Your Saviour is Matthew??
You're in DEEP TROUBLE!! :-)
slack -- s.
~!~ Why do I bath you, Matthew??
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:40:12
EID:15f3 20678d00
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2191a1f1
PID: FM 2.02
> Jim Germiquet > Katherine Wintersnight : cult evaluation form
> JG> My religion says we are all free to make our own choices.
> JG> My religion has no leaders. We are all equal.
> JG> My religion says each individual is free to believe what they choose.
> JG> My religion stresses sharing the good news with EVERYONE !
> JG> My religion has no subsidiary groups.
> JG> My religion needs no money.
> JG> My religion is not of this world.
> JG> My religion does not control the sex lives of members.
> JG> My religion excercises no control over members.
> JG> My religion says all are free to come and go as they please.
> JG> My religion does not endorse any type of violence
> JG> My religion is based on perfect love which casts out all fear.
> JG> Opponents have no power.
> JG> My religion is not concerned about what people say about it.
> Yeah, so? What do you want, a merit badge?
He's trying to make like he's not a Jesus cultist. Either that, or he's
in a SEVERE state of denial!!
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:46:13
EID:add3 20678dc0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2191a1f2
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313a216b
PID: FM 2.02
> Many who comment on this echo, don't just disbelieve in God, but
> loathe the God they claim they don't believe in.
Quite rightly. Even though their God doesn't exist, what the Jesus cultists
do in that non-extant God's NAME turns the stomach of any thinking person.
All so that your cult masters don't have to go out and get an HONEST job.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 07 Mar 96 22:29:14
EID:2d0a 2067b3a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2195b5d6
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 20897f13
PID: FM 2.02
> SM> Now: how about some direct evidence for your claimed "Satan" fellow??
> How do you prove the wind exists ? You can't see it or put it in a jar.
On the contrary, I put wind in a "jar" several times a week.
It's known to commerce as "compressed air". Open the bottle, and what comes
out?? AN INTENSE WIND.
Hence, we know that the wind and compressed air are the same thing. Moreover,
we know that the air IS a thing, because when a compressed air tank is full
-- of nothing else but the air -- the tank weighs more than when empty.
So much for your analogy. ALL real things can be evidenced directly, by
material attributes. Unless it has demonstrable mass -- like "the wind"
in my compressed air tank above -- IT DOESN'T EXIST AT ALL.
> You can "feel" it's prescence. You can see the "effect" it has on other
> things.
Things I have NEVER gotten from ANY "God".
> That is the only way to describe proving the existence of God or Satan.
> They are like the wind. You know it exists by the effect it has.
Then, as I asserted earlier, NEITHER ONE EXISTS AT ALL.
I have yet to encounter ANY phenomenon which cannot be explained both better
and more easily WITHOUT your imaginary playmates than WITH them.
(Also referred to as "Ockham's Razor".)
> God is a "spirit" . What is a "spirit" ?
A liquid possessing enough volatile hydrocarbon alcohols to burn easily.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: All
|Sub: Anti-Gay GOPster Caught With Pants Down
|Date: 07 Mar 96 23:55:15
EID:53cf 2067bee0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 219783d5
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "Alternative News"
* Originally by jeff@aa.net
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 3 Mar 1996, 10:16
-=> Note:
Copied (from: seattle.politics) by Scott Parks using timEd.
From: jeff@aa.net (Jeff Harris)
Date: 3 Mar 1996 18:16:58 GMT
Organization: Alternate Access Inc
Anti-Gay GOPster Caught With Pants Down
Remember when Susan Smith, the woman who murdered her two sons, told the
world that her father, a local Republican / Christian Coalition leader,
had
sexually abused her since she was a girl? Smith' father is not the only
anti-gay crusader from the unChristian Coalition who has been caught with
his pants down. Reasonable folks are starting to ask why the GOP's
unChristian Coalition doesn't focus on sin in their own damn family, instead
of spending so much time promoting legislation that would deny basic civil
rights like marriage to gay Americans.
THE ORLANDO SENTINEL
633 N. Orange Ave., Orlando,FL,32801
Fax 407-420-5286,
E-MAIL: OsoInsight@aol.com
Thursday, February 29, 1996
LAWMAKER ADMITS TO SEX WITH PROSTITUTES (excerpt)
Marvin Couch, a conservative Christian, wants to finish House term
By Sharon McBreen and John Kennedy, TALLAHASSEE BUREAU
TALLAHASSEE -- State Rep. Marvin Couch, a family-values, conservative
Christian legislator, has been charged with having sex with a prostitute
in
his truck at an Orange County shopping center.
The Oviedo Republican paid $22 for oral sex from a prostitute he picked
up
Feb. 22 on Orange Blossom Trail, deputy sheriffs said Wednesday. He was
charged with three misdemeanors and released after posting a $750 bond.
Couch, 42, said he will not seek re-election this fall but hopes to
complete his second term, which expires in November.
He also admitted he has purchased sex from prostitutes on other
occasions...
...In addition to prostitution, agents charged Couch with unnatural or
lascivious acts and exposure of his sexual organs...
...Couch has been an ardent supporter of the religious right's political
agenda. Last year he was one of a few Central Florida lawmakers to receive
a
perfect 100 rating from the Orlando-based Christian Coalition of Florida.
The District 33 lawmaker has been a steady advocate for so-called
pro-family legislation, including voluntary school prayer, crime-fighting
measures and anti-tax issues.
Couch also joined 14 other state legislators last fall in writing a
letter to the Walt Disney Co. criticizing its new policy of extending health
insurance to partners of gay and lesbian employees...
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 07 Mar 96 13:44:00
EID:ad56 20676d80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 313f2e6e
A lone voice in the wilderness, Jesse mournfully howled out "Constitution
of FSU"
SA>is whether or not the Soviet constitution ever contained "noble
SA>language". I've not included any further commentary (though it
SA>was tempting), and have typed what I have verbatim.
JJ> Why would you do such a thing, as retype in 15 messages the
JJ> entire constitution of the former Soviet Union?
Why not? J.J. Hitt sent me the entire US constitution, which I
also have saved to disk.
JJ> Was it only to best me by meeting my challenge to show noble
JJ> language in that constitution? Did my McCarthy crack hurt you so that
JJ> you had to prove yourself?
Why, no. You merely seem to have thought that I couldn't produce
any evidence, so .. I produced it. Something you fundies never
seem to do.
JJ> Was it because you genuinely do not understand the genius of
JJ> the U.S. Constitution? The genius of the U.S. Constitution is not
in
JJ> its Bill of Rights, although that is a magnificent achievement. But
JJ> that addition would be meaningless without an independent judiciary
to
JJ> enforce it. The FSU (former Soviet Union) had no such independent
JJ> judiciary. Our own constitution created a democratically elected
JJ> government bound by the rule of law and with a carefully designed
JJ> system of checks and balances with express recognition of individual
JJ> liberties.
[snort] Face it - it doesn't prevent any potentially despotic
party from abusing the system. No matter the language of ANY
constitution, it's still just a piece of tissue. It's only valid
if those in power choose to abide by it. Most of the Russian
rulers may have chosen not to; however, some of your presidents
have chosen not to abide by the US constitution, either. Barring
actually breaking constitutional rules, presidents can and do bend
the rules to suit themselves. Reagan and Nixon come to mind
immediately.
And, BTW - many democratic capitalist countries don't have an
elected judicial system. Canada doesn't. Australia doesn't.
England doesn't. I expect most continental European countries
don't elect judges at any level, either.
Checks and balances are nice, again, only if the politicians in
question are willing to abide by the rules. Even the US
constitution may be (and has been) broken many, many times by
those in power, especially when it comes to the vaunted free
speech clause. The free association allowed for in your
constitution was denied those considered to have hung around with
Communist groups under McCarthy. Your country still has problems
deciding where religion does and does not belong - if the
Republicans begin demanding prayer in public schools, that would
be in direct violation of the US constitution. The US claims a
non-interventionist stance, yet intervenes in the domestic affairs
of other countries whenever it can so that they may better suit
the interests of US ideology, just as the USSR intervened where it
could in order to further its own interests. What makes a covert
war for the interests of United Fruit et al in Nicaraugua and the
establishment of US-backed government death squads in El
Salavador any better than Soviet control of Poland and its overt
war in Afghanistan? What makes US meddling in Canadian political
and economic affairs any better than the USSR's meddling in its
economic satellites' business?*
Anyway, I note you changed the topic - the original question was
simply "did the USSR have noble language in its constitution or
not?" I think I have ably demonstrated that it did. However,
I'll continue to play along with your little game.
JJ> Or did you type this because you are genuinely incapable of
JJ> making the moral judgment involved in distinguishing the USA from the
JJ> FSU?
There is no difference, as far as mere words on paper go. As far
as the actual behaviour of each country goes, both in domestic and
foreign affairs, I see very little difference. Stalin sent
millions to die in gulags; Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon sent
millions to die in Viet Nam for no apparent reason at all, other
than the Viet Namese offended US sensibilities. The USSR sought
to impose its political will on countries weaker than itself; so
does the US. The USSR foresaw a world of communism under the
Soviet umbrella; the US sees a world of capitalism that serves US
interests, even to the detriment of the people of other countries
its multinationals prey upon. For example, every time the
Canadian government decides to protect Canadian business, the US
_government_ steps in to throw a hissy-fit and threaten sanctions,
to defend _its_ private business sector. These "private
businesses" might as well bloody well be government-owned, the way
the US government reacts to anything that might miff Big Business,
even though in the US, business and politics are supposedly
completely seperate, as they are not assumed to be here. It seems
to me that business and politics in the US only pretends to be
seperate entities, when in actuality they're just as cozy and
close as they are in any completely communist or socialist nation,
and the US will quite obviously go to war to protect business
interests as the USSR was just as willing to go to war to protect
communist interests. Tell me, Jesse, why hasn't the US denounced
the use of cheap labour in places where US businesses take
advantage of cheap labour, lower environmental controls, and
non-existant safety and labour laws? AFAICS, the issue has only
come up with respect to Mexico, only because of the current NAFTA
agreement - Americans are now going to experience what happened to
Canada upon implementation of the FTA; businesses will move south
where they can take advantage of legal predatory practices.
In the US, the old golden rule seems to apply - he who has the
gold makes the rules. Those without money in your country aren't
even guaranteed health care, fercryingoutloud. We here may have
waiting lists for elective surgery; the USSR might have
understaffed and underfunded hospitals; but in the US, either you
go into the poorhouse paying for your medical care (especially if
your HMO decides your condition is "pre-existing") or you do
without if you cannot qualify for the "second-tier" of health care
(that of the destitute able to get medicare.) This is one of the
main reasons I find the US an extremely unattractive place to live
and have absolutely no desire to move there for any length of
time. That, and rampant, uncontrolled gun possession. [If loonies
like Staal can get guns, something's wrong.] However, that works
for the US - I don't [thankfully] have to even visit if I choose
not to, just as I may choose not to visit Middle Eastern countries
due to their inequal treatment of women. I was, however,
disgusted at the activity of the NRA in attempting to pressure
Parliament to kill a recently-passed federal gun control law and
felt the NRA had absolutely no say in the matter as it is not
chartered here and such a law has no effect on American citizens,
unless they try to bring their handguns here contrary to Canadian
law. I also strongly disliked the US side of the FTA
negotiation's attempt to pressure Canada to get rid of various
socialist services (like universal health care, food marketing
boards, Crown corporations, etc) because they were deemed to be
"unfair trade advantages", even though they would affect only
business done within our own borders.
JJ> As a radical Christian I am more than capable of critiquing
JJ> the consumerist society we have created here. I am no jingoist.
JJ> However, I tremble when I see someone so depraved as to suggest moral
JJ> equivalency between the US and the FSU.
I tremble when I see people so blinded by patriotism they can't
even see the log in their own eye, while denouncing the mote in
others' eyes.
The USSR did some very immoral things; however, the US has done
a great many things which I consider highly immoral as well, and
continues to do so no matter which party is in office.
*[Note: I also condemn many of my own government's practices, and
would support the actions of the US to control Canadian business
activities within its own territories. While I think Parliament
has the right to regulate business within Canadian territory to
favour "our own", I also think that Canadian-owned mines within
the US should be told to clean up, pay up, or get out. A nation
has the right to decide business practices within its own borders,
and should not interfere with the affairs of others. I also
condemn strongly Parliament's objection to proposed EC laws that
would prohibit the import of furs obtained through leg-hold
trapping, especially since such traps are illegal throughout the
EC. Parliament has no right to tell the EC what to do, just as I
feel the US has no business telling _us_ what to do within our own
borders. And I condemn predatory business practices no matter
where said business originates.]
--Wolfie
"Wake me, shake me, tell me it's a dream,
I've got a B-52 on my TV screen
And a man in a tie, pointing to the sky,
Where you gonna run to now?"
--Redgum
... Grow your own dope: Plant a politician!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 07 Mar 96 13:44:01
EID:2653 20676d80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 313f2e6f
A lone voice in the wilderness, Judith mournfully howled out "animal abortions"
JB> I don't know what Mike will answer but it will probably be along the
JB> lines of 'how many women go in for hysterectomies only to find out that
JB> they are pregnant at the time of the surgery?' It's too bad that animal
JB> feti don't have as much value as human in the research field.
To heck with the feti; it's a shame already-born animals don't get
as much respect as human feti in the research field. Cripes,
there's been controversy over whether or not you can use
miscarried human feti that would benefit research far more than
1,000 rats would. I'm not sure that's even allowed in some
places, even if the parent wishes it.
--Wolfie
"Wake me, shake me, tell me it's a dream,
I've got a B-52 on my TV screen
And a man in a tie, pointing to the sky,
Where you gonna run to now?"
--Redgum
... Evolutionary Zoology: Science that doesn't suck.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 07 Mar 96 13:44:02
EID:e41b 20676d80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 313f2e70
A lone voice in the wilderness, Judith mournfully howled out "HEY, I'M NEW"
AS> so you are planning to eat it? I had heard it was done but never
AS> seen it.
JB> Try the Alice B. Toklas Cookbook. Now...for the $64,000 question. WHO
JB> was Alice B. Toklas?
The maid on the Brady Bunch? :)
--Wolfie
"Wake me, shake me, tell me it's a dream,
I've got a B-52 on my TV screen
And a man in a tie, pointing to the sky,
Where you gonna run to now?"
--Redgum
... "Knowledge, sir, should be free to all!"
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Lack of any Evidence whatsoever
|Date: 06 Mar 96 16:56:35
EID:9781 20668700
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 54b01841
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c8b
On 04 Mar 96, Fredric Rice wrote:
jB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
DR> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
jb> No, I mean the complete and total lack of evidence of the
jb> absence of God (or "gods," as you're so fond of putting it).
FR> You might as well complain about "Pixic evolution" and then demand
FR> that since there's no evidence that pixies don't exist, they do.
Theistic evolution has nothing to do with whether or not Pixies (gods)
_exist_; it's a belief system in which the existence of a God is a
"given." Whether or not the god _exists_ is a different (and totally
pointless to argue, as you well know) discussion.
FR> Ignorance, John, makes you a fundy. Dishonesty keeps you.
"Mislabelling" is another one of those Cognitive Distortions you seem to
suffer from, Freddie-boy. Care to try for a few more? There are
twelve, according to Dr. Beck, the "father of cognitive therapy."
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... GOVERN.SYS corrupted; reboot the suckers out? (Y/N)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Lack of any Evidence whatsoever
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:01:38
EID:9781 20668820
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 39923b88
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb2
On 04 Mar 96, Fredric Rice wrote:
jB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
dr> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
FR> Yeah, besides that.
jb> Yeah, besides that.
FR> What's wrong with Pixic evolution?
Nothing, if you've got a viable mechanism for the Pixies to be meddling
about at the DNA level's particle physics. Have you?
Didn't think so.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Mormonism: Music by God; Lyrics by Joe Smith.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 07 Mar 96 18:09:00
EID:cbcf 20679120
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Judith Bandsma <=-
MS> Thank you very much, It is very much appreciated.
MS> Hopefully no one will take this in the wrong way and ridicule
MS> you also for showing any sympathy in this matter.
Doesn't matter if they do. I've never been one to do things predicated on
'what will the neighbors think'. Whatever I think of you, your brother or
all the alternate personalities...losing someone you love hurts. It's not
a time to try to score points.
I will wait until you start spouting shit again and hit you for what you
say and how you say it. This is just a break in the normal routine where
I can share what you feel. I know how I felt when my mother died. You must
be feeling the same.
... Truth is just truth. You can't argue with truth: P Schickele
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: one more time
|Date: 07 Mar 96 18:43:00
EID:91a8 20679560
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
MH> In this case, I don't agree with FoF's position, but I don't see
MH> evidence of hate. I guess you will never understand, because you
MH> don't agree that homosexuality is morally wrong. I see a group of
How can I see homosexuality as morally wrong when I don't believe it is
a CHOICE? I believe it is as much a part of the person as their eye or
hair or skin color...something they didn't choose.
MH> well-intentioned Christians trying to balance hatred for sin with
MH> love for the sinner, and making some mistakes in their approach. But
I
MH> do not see hate for people, wheras I do see that hate in racism.
Oh, so the baseball bats, etc are for the SIN? Strange that they seem to
miss their mark and hit the 'sinner' instead.
MH> However, it does seem that homosexuals already have the same civil
MH> rights that everyone else has. Why do they need, for example, a law
MH> making anti-gay violence a special crime, when vandalism and assault
MH> and other violent acts are already crimes?
For the same reason that southern states have lynching laws, and most states
now define domestic abuse as a crime when they didn't before. These are
special laws for special circumstances that were enacted for the simple
reason that the police in a lot of communities REFUSE to treat them as
crimes. It hasn't been that long ago that if you punched someone on the
street and broke their jaw you would go to jail, but go home and do it to
your wife and you would get walked around the block and SHE would be
grilled about what she did to provoke it. Were there no laws against assault
on the books? Sure there were, but until the courts started defining
domestic abuse as a 'special' crime they weren't enforced when it came to
a domestic dispute.
Lynch laws were formulated to punish those who would harass and injure another
because of race. And lynching is no longer defined as needing a death. We
have a case here right now where an 11 year old black boy was tied to a
tree
by a white family, beaten and taunted with racial slurs and threatened with
death. They were charged under the lynch laws because they did it SOLELY
because the boy was black. Another 'special' law.
Stalking laws. There are many instances of special laws having to be enacted
in order to give a class of people an EQUAL chance under the law. What a
shame that it is necessary, but it is. Someday, maybe there will be no need
for these extra...special...laws. When a crime will be considered a crime
no
matter who it is perpetrated against. For now, it isn't.
And, as I said before, those who go out on Saturday nights with baseball
bats
looking to 'have some fun with some fags' are NOT aiming at what they see
as
a sin. They are looking to HURT someone...someONE, Mike, a flesh and blood
person. Simply because they dislike their lifestyle? And people like Dobson,
Phelps and that ilk only fan the flames and teach them that it is ok...that
there is biblical justification for bashing these PEOPLE. PEOPLE, Mike,
not
amorphous, intangible SINS. If you can't see that as hate then I wonder
if
you know what any emotion feels like.
MH> What right is anyone trying to take away, Judith?
The right to be seen as a human being FIRST, with all that entails
... I know you're not as stupid as you seem. No one could be!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Kenneth Cavness
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Many gods
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:41:04
EID:4d56 20663d20
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 313fb49d
Whilst sleeping soundly, Al Schroeder said to Kenneth Cavness:
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, Al Schroeder said to Fredric Rice:
FR> I'm totally dedicated to Zeus. Imagine.
AS> Not in a Ganymeadean sense, I trust.
KC> HaHA! We've read Marlowe, I see.
AS> Actually, I thought it was original (the fact that Ganymeade was
AS> Zeus' cupbearer and male main squeeze, as opposed to his ten thousand
AS> female main squeezes) but yeah, I've read Christopher Marlowe (I love
AS> his Dr. Faustus, but I've suffered a recent fire and lost some of my
AS> books) and probably unconsciously plagiarized it. Where was it, in Dr.
AS> Fautus or Timburlane or what?
"Dido, Queen of Carthage" --
[Prose lines converted into paragraph form because I just couldn't be
bothered]
Jupiter: Come, gentle Ganymede, and play with me. / I love thee
well, say Juno what she will.
Ganymede: I am much better for your worthless love, / That will
not shield me from her shrewish blows! / Today, whenas I fill'd
into your cups, / And held the cloth of pleasance whiles you
drank, / She reach'd me such a rap for that I spill'd, / As
made the blood run down about mine ears.
Jupiter: What, dares she strike the darling of my thoughts? / By
Saturn's soul, and this earth-threatening hair, / That, shaken
thrice, makes nature's buildings quake, / I vow, if she but once
frown on theee more, / To have her, meteor like, 'twist heaven
and earth, / And bind her, hand and foot, with golden cords, /
As once I did for harming Hercules!
Ganymede: Might I but see that pretty sport a-foot, / O, how
would I with Helen's brother laugh, / And bring the gods to
wonder at the game! / Sweet Jupiter, if e'er I pleas'd thine
eye, / Or seemed fair, wall'd-in with eagle's wings, / Grace
my immortal beauty with this boon, / And I will spend my time
in thy bright arms.
It gets progressively more explicit. This is, amazingly enough, from Act
I Scene I.
I'm aware of the Ganymede-Zeus connection in mythology, but I remember
this play more often than the original. ;)
... "You're nuts! N-V-T-S!" -- History of the World, Part I
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: christology
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:07:42
EID:673d 206748e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f0562
REPLY: 1:153/792 30a80023
Here's what Kelsey Bjarnason said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW>However, one who believes in spirit would generally not define death
that
LW>way, but rather, would define it as some variation of "death is the
LW>separation of the spirit from the body." This definition roughly corresponds
LW>to a clinical definition of death along the lines of, "death is the cessation
LW>of the heartbeat," or "death is the absence of measurable brain activity."
LW>Using these definitions of death, it is apparently possible for people
to
LW>come back from death.
KB> So, you want us to use a definition of "death" which indicates a
KB> condition which can be inflicted and removed at will?
I'm not sure where you got the "at will" part. It is, of course, possible
to kill oneself or someone else, which could be considered inflicting death
"at will." As to removing death "at will," some near death experiencers
do say that they had a choice as to whether to return to their physical
body; if you give that any credence (which I presume you don't), that could
be considered removing death "at will."
However, the definitions given in my paragraph above do not require the
individual's will to be a factor in the occurrence or non-occurrence of
death.
KB> Most people have a rather more strict definition of "death".
KB> Something about it being a permanent condition, I believe.
I don't know whether or not "most" people have permanence as part of their
definition of death. Do you have statistics on this?
My point was that there are various working definitions of death used in
various contexts and for various purposes. Not all of them specify permanence.
Medically, the definition is usually a functional one, as mentioned above--something
about cessation of heartbeat for a certain length of time or the absence
of measurable brain activity. In practice, these functional definitions
do not necessarily specify permanence. That is why there are numerous cases
of people being declared dead by a doctor or nurse and then reviving. According
to the definition being used when these people were declared dead, they
_were_ dead. But their death was not permanent.
In legal circles, I expect that permanence _would_ be a part of the definition
of death. Though I just perused my dictionary a bit and discovered this
nifty little definition:
Civil death. _Law._ The total deprivation of civil rights resulting from
conviction for treason or for some other serious offense.
Now there's a definition of death that doesn't even involve physical death!
;-)
Obviously, if you define death as a permanent condition, by that definition
of death, anyone who revives was not dead.
It's all a matter of what definition of death you use. If you read some
of the literature on death, you will find that defining death is far from
a simple matter.
KB> If we start using your definition, we're going to have to dig up
KB> every body ever buried, just to be sure they're not alive now.
Not at all. In general, if clinical death is not reversed, it does result
in permanent physical (biological) death. After a few days have gone by
with no vital signs, we can be fairly sure the death is permanent. I say
"fairly sure" because there are some rare cases when people revive after
they have been thought dead for several days.
KB> This is getting way too weird.
Only if you have problems with death.
--Lee
... Choose your death carefully. You'll be stuck with it for a long time.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Epistemology
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:31:42
EID:705e 20674be0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f0563
REPLY: 1:153/792 30a80022
Here's what Kelsey Bjarnason said to Lee Woofenden about Epistemology:
LW> No matter how many times you repeat this, Hector, your mere assertion
does
LW> not make it so. You have yet to show how the tall building experiment
LW> demonstrates that matter exists.
KB> Perhaps not directly as Hector has explained it.
That's a nice way of hedging your answer. ;-) Put bluntly, Hector's tall
building experiment does not demonstrate that matter exists as matter. I
have seen a few honest atheists here who will admit that. But not many.
KB> I, however, explained it at least once in terms which I thought
KB> would have made it abundantly clear that, if we are not
KB> determining an absolute reality, we are at least defining a
KB> relative reality sufficiently well to allow for meaningful
KB> communications.
I'll grant you that.
For the sake of ease of communication, we agree to assume that matter exists
as matter. Just as for the sake of ease of communication, we allow ourselves
to say that the sun rises and sets, even though we know it is not the sun
rising and setting, but the earth rotating on its axis in relation to a
relatively fixed sun. It would be a nuisance to have to say in the morning,
"Oh honey, wake up, I see that the earth has rotated on its axis sufficiently
for the sun to appear over the eastern horizon."
In the case of the sun rising and setting, most of us know when we say "the
sun is rising" that the assumption implicit in that statement--that the
sun moves relative to the earth producing sunrises and sunsets--is false.
We have learned that "sunrise" is actually caused by the earth's rotation.
However, for our everyday functioning, it does not matter to us whether
the sun moves or the earth moves. Because of this, there is no practical
harm under our normal circumstances in speaking and acting on the now disproven
assumption that sunrises and sunsets are caused by the sun moving relative
to the earth.
Similarly, Newton's laws still work for most of our daily experiences. We
can act as though they are the laws of the physical universe for everything
we would normally do, even though we know that they break down beyond certain
thresholds of size, speed, energy level, etc. It's simply that in our normal
experience, we stay within the thresholds where Newton's laws hold true.
It is the same way with the existence of matter as matter. Most of us agree
that functionally, it works for us to act as if matter does exist as matter.
It works for us, so we go ahead as if it is true. You do that, I do that,
Hector does that. Everyone on earth, with the possible exception of a few
mystics and Christian Scientists, does that.
This makes sense. I am not arguing and never have tried to argue that we
should act as though matter doesn't exist as matter. I have consistently
agreed with Hector that if I jump off the tall building, I will die.
However, it is a philosophical mistake to confuse our working assumptions
with demonstrable truth about reality. As you said:
KB> While philosophically speaking, we are not describing an absolute
KB> reality, we are coming to sufficiently consise definitions that,
KB> were I to say "That table we sat at when we went to Joe's Cafe
KB> last Tuesday" you're not going to assume I'm talking about a
KB> fur-covered quadruped with retractile claws.
What we are actually talking about is our shared experience of reality.
Because you and Hector and I all perceive the table at Joe's Cafe in a similar
way, we make a fairly good assumption that there actually is a stable reality
from which each of us gets our somewhat less stable sensory impressions.
We make a fairly good assumption that the table physically exists roughly
as we perceive it.
All I'm saying is that an assumption that the table is made of physical
matter is just that: an assumption. The existence of physical matter as
matter is not in itself demonstrable in any final way.
The reason I coined the phrase "fundy atheist" was that the conceptual jump
from matter as non-demonstrable, working assumption to that of matter as
"obvious fact" is a fundamentalist mistake.
You admit that philosophically speaking, we are not describing an absolute
reality. Yet you ridicule those who point out that we are working with assumptions
rather than "the obvious." Those who insist that their own assumptions about
reality are "obviously true" while anyone who holds to a different assumption
about reality must be ignorant or of unsound mind are making the fundy mistake--as
defined in the Holysmoke FAQ. This applies to atheists just as much as it
does to theists.
--Lee
... FUNDY ATHEISTS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Epistemology
|Date: 07 Mar 96 10:06:04
EID:705e 206750c0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f0564
REPLY: 1:153/792 30a80022
Here's what Kelsey Bjarnason said to Lee Woofenden about Epistemology:
KB> All of which comes to this: when I discuss the effects of concrete,
KB> or the composition thereof, or the colour, odour, tase, smell,
KB> feel, hardness, malleability or other properties thereof, I can
KB> be reasonably certain that Hector does not think I mean a furry
KB> quadruped, or a computer component, or tarmac; he knows what I am
KB> discussing, which is concrete.
KB> When it comes to such things as "spirit" or "gods" or "souls" or
KB> "afterlife" and so on, one cannot be sure the other party is
KB> discussing the same thing. There is no general consensus on
KB> what properties a "god" has. There is no general consensus on
KB> how heavy a "soul" is or what colour a "spirit" is.
It is very similar to a new science in its formative stages. At first, there
is no agreement among scientists. Lots of different theories are floating
around, each with proponents and opponents. Over time, most of the theories
are falsified, and scientists gradually settle into a dominant viewpoint
that most of them have agreed is the best description of reality in that
particular branch of science.
When it comes to spirit, IMO we are in the early formative stages of our
views and attitudes. There are bound to be a lot of different views floating
around and a lot of disagreements among those who hold to the different
views. As with a developing science, this is a healthy situation. The more
different viewpoints there are, the more likely we are to be able to boil
them down into a solid and consistent view that can pass the test of time.
Diversity of viewpoints adds to the richness and depth of the eventually
accepted viewpoint.
Stating that the objects of spiritual seeking do not exist because there
is no agreement about them is equivalent to stating that the cosmos does
not exist because there is no agreement on a Grand Unified Theory that can
combine relativity and quantum mechanics, and bring the four known forces
under one theory.
KB> Which is to say, while your objections to Hec's experiment are
KB> valid to a point, they miss a point. They miss the point that
KB> matter _is_ definable in a meaningful sense, while "spirit"
KB> is not. As such, any discussion involving terms such as "spirit"
KB> is nothing more than hot air, spewed for the benefit of the speaker,
KB> without even the dignity of mental masturbation -
Based on your loaded language, methinks you have emotional rather than rational
reasons for insisting on this so strongly.
KB> there has to
KB> be cogitation for that to occur, and I defy you to cogitate upon
KB> that which you cannot determine any physical properties for.
You defy me? It's a simple task. You can do it too. Cogitate upon truth,
beauty, logic, the laws of mathematics. None of those have any physical
properties, yet we can cogitate on them all day if we wish.
LW> You need to come up with an experiment for which the two views
LW> would give different predictions. Can you? Will you?
KB> Just did, indirectly.
I'm assuming that what follows is your direct statement of this experiment.
If not, please do state your experiment directly.
KB> I'll define "concrete" such that a person 5,000 miles away will
KB> understand exactly what I mean, in terms which allow us meaningful
KB> conversation about that substance, with no misunderstandings of the
KB> fundamental properties of the substance.
KB> You do the same for "spirit". If the person at the other end
KB> interprets it as something other than "spirit" - perhaps as
KB> "angel" or "god" or "soul" or "demon" or "vision" or "apparition",
KB> then you have failed.
KB> Finally, both parties have to produce a list of properties which
KB> would allow the other party to determine the substance under
KB> question from other substances.
KB> That is, I'll define "concrete" such that you won't confuse it
KB> with talcum or hard drives or granite; you define "spirit" such
KB> that I don't confuse it with delusion, or mistake, or self-deception,
KB> or wishful thinking, or alcoholic stupor.
The problem is, we all have a great deal of empirical knowledge of material
things, but we have very little empirical knowledge of spiritual things.
This is part of the reason that our knowledge of spirit is, IMO, in its
infancy.
Contrary to what you are implying, when religious mystics gather together
(as they did at the 1993 World Parliament of Religions in Chicago) and talk
about their spiritual experiences, they immediately recognize the experience
of the other mystics as variations on their own experience. They recognize
that the spiritual "objects" described as encountered by other mystics match
the spiritual "objects" they themselves have encountered.
If you put a group of philosophers together in a room, they will argue with
each other. If you put a group of mystics together in a room, they will
share their common experiences of God and spirit.
_You_ may not be able to distinguish spirit from delusion, but that is because
you (apparently) have not experienced spirit directly yet. Those who have
can quite easily distinguish the two--and they agree with each other when
they describe the nature of the distinction.
Trying to get consensus on spirit among people who have no direct experience
of it would be like trying to get consensus on skyscrapers from people who
lived 3,000 years ago. There is no experience on which to base such a consensus.
However, if we conduct your experiment among people with empirical knowledge
of the respective realities involved, it comes out in favor of the reality
of spirit as compared with the reality of matter.
--Lee
... Egad! I can _feel_ my mind boggling...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Epistemology
|Date: 07 Mar 96 11:23:18
EID:705e 20675ae0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f10f9
REPLY: 1:153/792 30b1745e
Here's what Kelsey Bjarnason said to Lee Woofenden about Epistemology:
LW> I see you're still avoiding the issue, Dan. How does the experiment
LW> demonstrate that matter exists?
KB> It demonstrates not that matter exists, but rather, that the person
KB> contending matter _cannot_ be shown to exist lacks the courage of
KB> his convictions.
Courage has nothing to do with it. It would be silly to conduct an experiment
when we know ahead of time that it is not capable of disproving one of the
two theories it is supposed to be testing.
KB> You see, most of us can come to a collective agreement that something
KB> "exists" - in whatever sense - that has such-and-such properties.
KB> One thing we agree exists is "matter", and one of the agreements we
KB> have about it is that certain forms of it - e.g. concrete - do nasty
KB> amounts of damage to certain other forms of it - e.g. human bodies -
KB> when the two meet at high velocity.
Is this the Socialist Theory of reality? If we come to a collective agreement
that something exists, then it exists!
KB> So, since the rest of the planet (philosophers and other daydreamers
KB> excluded) have no problem with the assertion "matter exists" -
KB> indeed, can use it effectively, and build upon it - why not simply
KB> show them wrong, by impacting concrete at high velocity and _not_
KB> being damaged?
Once again Mr. Bjarnason misses the point. No part of the theory I proposed
as an alternative to the objective existence of matter as matter predicts
that a person can impact concrete at high velocity and not be damaged. You
cannot disprove a theory by showing that things it does not predict happen
to be false. Let's see, what logical fallacy was that...
LW> No evidence has been brought forward to demonstrate that it is
LW> incorrect. Why should I drop that line of reasoning when it
LW> explains all observed phenomena just as well as materialism does?
KB> It doesn't, unless you wish to _also_ assert either that there is
KB> only one consciousness, or that in some way, one consciousness can
KB> dominate all others into its world view.
Too late, Kelly. I already did propose that there is a universal consciousness
of which our individual minds are merely a subset or component part.
KB> My. Sounds like we're adding in all sorts of extra complications
KB> to the issue. Somebody page Mr. Occam.
... and get him to remind these fundy atheists that their assertion that
matter exists as matter is irrelevant to any experiment they might wish
to conduct. All that is necessary is that whatever _is_ perceptible to us
obeys definite laws. Whether it is made of matter or consciousness is irrelevant
to any scientific experiment. Therefore the assertion that matter exists
as matter is to be cut out of the equation by Occam's Razor.
Materialism is a _belief_, not a demonstrable reality.
--Lee
... A single fact can spoil a good argument.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 07 Mar 96 13:58:28
EID:21bc 20676f40
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f3988
Here's what AL SCHROEDER said to LEE WOOFENDEN about THE PATTERN OF THE
BIBLE:
AS> The way I look at it is this: God is eternal and unchanging, BUT He
AS> is dealing with beings trapped in Time, hostage to change. He must
AS> alter His message somewhat to suit the cultural maturity of the
AS> listeners. What I tell and how I tell my son at two is not the same
as
AS> I will do when he is ten, or when he is twenty. I have not changed;
my
AS> standards have not changed; I am just taking into account who I am
AS> addressing and their capacity to understand.
Right. This is something that the fundy atheist Bible critics completely
miss. They assume that God is unlike any other intelligent life form we
know and does not adapt the message to the comprehension and receptivity
of the hearer.
--Lee
... A single fact can spoil a good argument.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 07 Mar 96 14:01:16
EID:4f2e 20677020
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f3989
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 0dfc7191
Here's what Marilyn Burge said to AL SCHROEDER about THE PATTERN OF THE
BIBLE:
AS> The way I look at it is this: God is eternal and unchanging,
AS> BUT He is dealing with beings trapped in Time, hostage to
AS> change. He must alter His message somewhat to suit the
AS> cultural maturity of the listeners. What I tell and how I
AS> tell my son at two is not the same as I will do when he is
AS> ten, or when he is twenty. I have not changed; my standards
AS> have not changed; I am just taking into account who I am
AS> addressing and their capacity to understand.
MB> But the MESSAGE ITSELF doesn't change, which puts you way ahead
MB> of Jehovah! Whether your kid is two or twenty-two, you still
MB> tell him that you think stealing is wrong, for example. It
MB> would be nice if Jehovah were HALF that consistent!
You are assuming that you grasp the message God is trying to convey. I would
suggest that this message has more to do with the motives than the action.
An action that one culture finds objectionable may not be considered objectionable
in another culture--in fact, it might even be required. Given the ingrained
nature of cultural do's and don'ts, it would be more profitable for God
to work on the motives behind what people do. If the motives are good, then
when new information comes to a culture or an individual suggesting that
a certain action is harmful, the people will be more likely to drop that
action in favor of something better. But if the motives are bad, no amount
of information or understanding could convince them not to do what they
are doing.
Your objections to the inconsistencies in the Bible are simplistic because
you assume that God relates to humans in a simple way. God does not relate
to humans in a simple, on-size-fits-all way because humans are varied and
complex. What works for one person will not work for another.
If the Bible were a simple morality play or a list of simple do's and don'ts,
few people would pay any attention to it because it would be boring and
would not take into account the complexities of human life. As it is, millions
of people do pay attention to it because it has something for people at
all levels of spiritual development--or lack thereof.
Even in things like stealing we make distinctions based on the motives involved.
This is something my six year old daughter has a hard time understanding.
If she grabs something out of our hands, it is a form of stealing, and we
will generally reprimand her for it (no, not harshly...). But if her seven
month old brother grabs something out of our hands, it is not stealing because
he does not have the concept of "mine" and "yours" that would have to be
there for him to be "stealing" anything. We don't get angry at him for grabbing
something out of our hands, but my daughter does, because she has a hard
time understanding that he is not doing anything wrong--he's just acting
the way babies do. Even for the very same action, we treat the six year
old and the seven month old differently.
Now multiply that out to five billion people and you start to get some idea
of why God might give us a book such as the Bible, with all its complexities
and inconsistencies, rather than some simple "how to live" manual.
--Lee
... A proliferation of new laws creates a proliferation of new loopholes.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: NDEs
|Date: 07 Mar 96 14:23:15
EID:8d12 206772e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f398a
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet b390284e
Here's what Fredric Rice said to Lee Woofenden about NDEs:
LW> It's all well and good to make bald assertions like,
LW> "Electrochemical processes in the brain have been shown to be
LW> responsible for all activity in the brain."
FR> Perhaps you should read Susan Blackmore and actually divest
FR> yourself of some of that gross ignorance, Lee.
I have read a bit of Susan Blackmore, _and_ I have read some of the critiques
of her work. You should read both sides before you jump to conclusions,
Fredric.
LW> The thousands of NDE reports are themselves the evidence.
FR> Yep, evidence that the dying brain manufactures fantasy
FR> indistinguishable from experience. Susan Blackmore has
FR> researched NDE phenomena and has all the answers you need,
FR> fundy. Try _learning_ for once.
Gee, Fred. Christian fundies have the Bible. Atheist fundies like you have
Susan Blackmore. Thump that book, Fredric! But make sure you don't read
any of the authors who have pointed out the gaps in Blackmore's work!
I've returned most of the materials I used when I was researching this topic,
but would be glad to dig up some of the references if you're interested
in learning _both_ sides of the issue rather than just your own fundy atheist
one.
--Lee
... Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: christology
|Date: 07 Mar 96 14:44:33
EID:3107 20677580
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f9952
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 88EF0E31
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> Exactly! God's accepting us as we are is the reason evil can exist.
We
DC> Try looking back into your mythos, as understand where "evil"
DC> came from.
LW> If that sentence has any meaning, I'd appreciate it if you would
LW> explain its meaning to me.
DC> Try looking into your bible, Lee. It's your god that is responsible
DC> for evil. If it wasn't for him, evil would not exist.
DC> You have bothered to take the time to read your own mythos... or ]
DC> have you?
If you are talking about the Bible, yes, I have read and studied it for
many years.
Dan, the Bible is not so much a single "mythos" as a history of the development
of the mythos of a particular segment of the human race over approximately
two millennia. I'm afraid that if you expect to look into the Bible and
find a single, simple mythos that consistently says things like "God created
evil," you're going to be disappointed when you actually read the Bible
from beginning to end.
The Bible spans a wide range, both in time and in beliefs. IMO, the question
is not so much, "What does the Bible say?" as "How do we interpret what
the Bible says, and what weight do we give to it?"
Having pointed that out, I can tell you, Dan, that you do not even know
what "my mythos" is, and therefore you are not qualified to tell me what
my beliefs are on a given subject. In fact, this strikes me as a particularly
fundy thing for you to try to do.
From my point of view it is true that if God did not exist, evil would not
exist simply because nothing at all would exist. Beyond that, "my own mythos"
states that human beings rather than God are responsible for the existence
of evil, since God created everything good, but humans took a part of that
and turned it into evil. Without human beings, there would be no evil.
--Lee
... A mind's journey begins with a single "Why?" --Confucius
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: christology
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:47:39
EID:c22f 20677de0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f9953
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 30dc6dc3
Here's what Preston Simpson said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
MG> Tell that to the abused three year olds I see in the ER.
LW> Who abused them? It wasn't God. It was people who have turned away
LW> from God. Whether they claim to believe in God or not, they are doing
LW> things that are inimical to God--hurting other human beings.
PS> Why is this inimical to God? He hurt plenty of human beings if your
PS> book can be taken at face value.
Ah, but if you had followed my various posting on the Bible, you would know
that my position is that the Bible _cannot_ be taken at face value....
It is inimical to God to hurt other human beings because God wishes us to
be happy, and hurting others does not tend toward their happiness.
--Lee
... Blow ye winds, like the trumpet blows! But without all that noise.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: christology
|Date: 07 Mar 96 15:50:36
EID:c78b 20677e40
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f9954
REPLY: 1:207/225@fidonet.org 7abd201c
Here's what Karen Davis said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> Who abused them? It wasn't God. It was people who have turned
LW> away from God. Whether they claim to believe in God or not, they
LW> are doing things that are inimical to God--hurting other human
LW> beings.
KD> If they're professing Christians, then they are Christians to
KD> me. MOST child abuse is done by professing Christians.
If you're talking about the U.S. that may simply be because most people
in the U.S. are professing Christians. To get valid figures, there would
have to be a study that looked for the number of professing Christians versus
non-Christians who abuse children relative to the percentages of professing
Christians and of non-Christians in the total population.
Plus, as someone else pointed out, people on trial for heinous crimes often
make a point of professing religious beliefs whether they believe them or
not to try to get themselves off the hook.
As to your identification of professing Christians with Christians, let
me ask you a question: If someone told you that she does not believe in
spanking her children, but you see her spanking her children on several
occasions, what do you think she really believes? Does she believe what
she tells you she believes, or what is evidenced by what she actually does?
--Lee
... What is lost is trivial compared to what has been gained.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: christology
|Date: 07 Mar 96 16:00:01
EID:1cee 20678000
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313f9955
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 5f6668cf
Here's what Martin Goldberg said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
MG>> Tell that to the abused three year olds I see in the ER.
LW> Who abused them? It wasn't God. It was people who have turned
LW> away from God. Whether they claim to believe in God or not, they
LW> are doing things that are inimical to God--hurting other human
LW> beings.
MG> Funny. some of the parents of abused kids are seen in church every
MG> week. If you don't consider them to be true xtians, then consider
MG> this...your god has turned away from these kids by allowing the
MG> parents to be what they are...child abusers.
Marty, as you know this is not an easy issue to sort out. For about half
a year now I have been doing group counseling for men who abuse their partners.
It sickens me to hear the things these men do to the women in their lives
and, often, to their children as well. Obviously nobody with an ounce of
compassion could see some of the things that go on and not become saddened,
upset, and angry.
The question you are raising is a very basic one: Why does God allow bad
things to happen to innocent people? Believe me, it is a question that any
genuinely religious person struggles with very deeply. I have been involved
in many discussions of just this question. I am not going to offer you any
easy answers, because difficult questions do not lend themselves to easy
answers. In fact, I consider it to be part of the spiritual growth process
to struggle with questions like these. I am skeptical of anyone who claims
to have some sort of a "quick fix"--theological or otherwise--for problems
like these.
However, I would like to bring forward a couple of points that bear on this
question.
First, in my view of God, God values our freedom and our rationality above
all else. Without these two things, we are not really human and nothing
we do has any particular moral or ethical value to it. In non-human nature
there is no good or evil; there is simply existence. Only humans put a good
or an evil value on something, and that is only because we have the freedom
to choose among various courses of action and the rationality to determine
the nature and probable results of the various courses of action.
However, having freedom of this kind implies that we are capable of choosing
something that is harmful over something that is good. In other words, if
we are free, we can choose evil instead of good. Evil is evil because it
damages someone or something. The things we as humans generally consider
the most evil are actions or events that hurt innocent human beings--such
as the child abuse victims that you see. The only way God could prevent
us from ever doing harm to any innocent person would be to take away our
freedom, and along with it the rationality that we use in exercising our
freedom. This would mean taking away our humanity.
What this means is that our choices do affect other people--even other innocent
people. God could not nullify that without destroying the very thing that
makes us people.
Second, in my view of God, God looks primarily to what is eternal, and only
secondarily to what is temporary. In other words, God is primarily concerned
with our spiritual well-being and only secondarily with our physical well-being.
(Of course, this presumes the existence of the spiritual world and our continued
life in it after death. But that is usually part of the "God package.")
For the sake of argument, entertain the idea for a moment that we do live
forever after death. This, as I just mentioned parenthetically, usually
goes along with believing in God. In this situation, what is more crucial:
that we be happy and comfortable here for the few years we are here, or
that we be happy and comfortable forever afterwards? You have to admit that
if there is a choice between these two, it would be a foolish person who
chose happiness here at the cost of unhappiness forever afterwards.
Now, please understand that I am _not_ saying that we must be unhappy here
in order to be happy in the afterlife. That has never made sense to me.
I am only pointing out that there is no ratio between a temporary state
of being--whether it is for one year, seventy years, or one-thousand years--and
a permanent state of being. Compared to what is permanent, what is temporary
is relatively unreal. That is why, in my view, God attends primarily to
what is permanent and only secondarily to what is temporary.
Back to the abused children. It is true that what they are suffering is
terrible and wrong. There is no excuse for treating children--or anyone
else--that way. It is part of our task on earth to stop things like that
from happening. I see God as working through people like you and I to prevent
these things from happening as much as possible, and to do our best to repair
the damage that has already been done.
As bad as the abuse is, from a theistic perspective it is the eventual course
of the person's life that becomes the most important. While abuse heavily
damages a person's life, people who have suffered abuse can go on to live
very good lives, just as people who have become physically handicapped in
one way or another can go on to live very good lives. In all of these situations,
God looks to bring any good that is possible from the bad events. Many of
the people who are now working to end abuse were themselves abused as children.
Their childhood experiences are one of the main motivators to their current
work. The same is true of other "evils," such as alcoholism, war, drug addiction,
etc.
I do not claim that this is a full answer to the question you raise. As
I said, this is a difficult question and there is no simple answer, whether
or not one happens to believe in God. However, if you will allow theistic
thinking to be as complex and context-sensitive as you allow non-theistic
thinking to be, you will find that theists are searching for solutions to
problems like this just as non-theists are.
--Lee
... Anarchy is against the law.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Posting
|Date: 07 Mar 96 23:23:31
EID:4de6 2067bae0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 313fb774
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 890544A5
Here's what Michael Hardy said to Lee Woofenden about Posting:
MH> I manage to get to it almost daily, but I find myself less inclined
MH> to spend four or five hours on it. The same arguments go round and
MH> round endlessly, and minds rarely change. Lately I've just been
MH> reading my personal mail and then scanning through the rest just to
MH> see if anything else catches my eye.
I had a snow day today, so I decided to do some posting and answered a few
back messages on HolySmoke. The old arguments do get boring after a while--especially
when so few people are even listening before they reply.
LW> Have you had a chance to do any reading in the books I sent you?
MH> No, and nor have I had a chance to read the dozen or so other books
I
MH> want to get to -- primarily because this echo has been getting most
MH> of my free time. But as I said, that's changing, so I will get to them
MH> soon.
Ah well. That's in your hands. If you ever do get a chance to read them
I'd be curious as to your response.
--Lee
... Deja Post: The feeling that you have read this thread before.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 07 Mar 96 18:55:00
EID:a61e 206796e0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> I see it as a power trip. "Who are you to question me? I'm bigger,
RH> stronger, etc." A typical bully response.
AS> That's a possibility. There's another.
AS> I don't think I could EVER...no matter how long I talked, or tried
AS> to metaphorize or make an analogy or anything...tell a two-year-old
AS> all the ins and outs of our electorial system, or how a television
AS> REALLY works, not just the Mr. Wizard explanation or explain an income
AS> tax form. And a two-year-old is just a smaller stage of the same life
AS> form. Even a virus is closer to me than God is to me in that sense,
AS> since a virus is part of the same evolutionary tree, and a god would
AS> be totally different frmo you and I. It would be the height of
AS> arrogance to think we can comprehend ALL the motives of an infinite
AS> being. In fact, I would be more suspicious of a belief-system that
AS> asserts EVERY answer could be comprehended by human beings. If that's
AS> a copout, so
AS> be it. To me it is more comprehending the enormous gulf inbetween.
I understand that Al, and it may well be that God is directing our
evolution toward some end of his own and could care LESS about us
intermediate stages.
But that does not make it any more acceptable to me....
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:50:00
EID:4a37 2067a640
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Yes, there's that. But you will concede the honesty of the disciples,
AS> then? They told the truth AS THEY KNEW IT. I took the hoax theory as
AS> a subset of the "telling the truth" bit.
No, you were saying that they told the truth, thus proving that Jesus
indeed rose.
AS> Let's see now. We will make the assumption, if you will, that the
AS> main parts are true, excepting only the miraculous parts. Fair enough?
OK.
AS> Then we require the cooperation of, at a minimum (a) whoever thought
AS> up the plot (b) the centurion who pierced His side and anyone who
a) Jesus
b) Not necessarily in on it. Maybe just sloppy, maybe didn't happen.
AS> might have examined Him afterwards and (c) those who prepared Him for
AS> burial and the guards at the tomb. (Unless there was a secret
c) No one prepared him. The women were coming back later for that.
d) There is no mention of them afterwards. Bribed, killed, executed?
AS> tunnel within the tomb, which I am willing to concede is a
AS> possibility.) By far the likeliest candidates would be Nicodemus
AS> and/or Joseph of Arithemea. I don't think, given the climate of the
Joseph. Rich enough for the bribes.
AS> times, and given Pilate's general character, we can expect him to be
a
AS> co-conspirator. Tiberius would execute him in an instant for pulling
a
AS> hoax that would endanger the hold Herod had on the populance, who was
AS> an ally of Rome. Nor would Pilate really have any reason to keep a
AS> Jewish rabble-rouser alive, he would be much safer to Pilate dead.
AS> Ditto the Sanhedrin as a whole, and the high priest's family.
AS> Let's examine the idea. Jesus found that Nicodemus and/or Joseph of
AS> Arithimea were favorable to His ideas. So He had a secret meeting
AS> with them, and said, "You have contacts with the Roman soldiers. I
AS> want you to bribe some who might be present at the Crucifixions, so
AS> that after I am arrested and sentenced, they will take me off the
AS> cross before I'm dead." THINK on that one for a second.
AS> THERE's bravery for you. Or insanity. Crucifixion is one of the
Or sincere faith.
AS> most painful deaths known. Instead of hightailing out of Jerusalem,
Nah. How about flaying? Now, THERE'S painful!
AS> Jesus VOLUNTARILY underwent crucifixion in the HOPES that the guards
AS> Nicodemus et al hired would be able to save Him before He was
AS> dead...under the watchful eye of Judas and the Sanhedrin. (And Roman
AS> military law was quite
AS> clear in that regard, that the guards would be risking death if they
AS> found
AS> out.) We would be talking hefty bribes here.
AS> And further, we would have to ensure that no one, while preparing
AS> the body, noticed the breathing. Now, in the first century, the
AS> average person
AS> was much closer to death than we were. The average kid in the street
AS> had seen corpses, from executions or plagues. They were much more
AS> intimately acquainted with death than we are.
AS> Again, large bribes.
AS> Then the guard around the tomb. We're not sure if these are Roman
AS> or Sanhedrin guards. If they were Roman, again Roman military law
AS> permits execution of those who allowed their charges to escape, even
AS> if that charge is a body, due to their negligence. Like sleeping on
AS> the job, etc.)
AS> Large bribes.
AS> Now, NONE of them decided that the Sanhedrin (the political and
AS> religious power in the land) or Judas (the military power in the
AS> land) would pay BETTER for finding out about such a conspiracy? A
AS> secret spread too far is a secret no longer? Nobody told (with the
AS> consequent executions which would take place?).
Or no one left alive to tell....
AS> Would two members of the Sanhedrin REALLY risk death for a
AS> Galilean preacher? It is not unlike saying two U.S. Senators would
AS> risk execution to aid David Koresh. It's possible, but to say the
AS> least it seems unlikely...
AS> Whatever else happened to Jesus, He had to have been wounded in
AS> the hands and feet to go through the Crucifixion. So, this wounded
AS> man...wounded (at the very least) in the side, in the hands, in the
AS> FEET...met a couple of believers on the road to Emmanus, walking the
AS> roughly ten miles from Emmanus to Jerusalem?
AS> Neat trick.
Wagon? Horse?
AS> But not for a GROUP witnessing of an impossible thing. Which is
AS> exactly what the disciples had.
RH> BS. Thousands witnessed the sun dancing in the sky, an impossible
AS> If you're stupid enough to stare at the sun, the eye jerks against
AS> the glare. For that matter, involuntary flinching against the glare
AS> would make
AS> the sun seem to "move".
But that's what they reported. Who said they were all staring at the
sun anyway? Not I...
Besides, it was an overcast day IIRC.
RH> event. I saw the Statue of Liberty vanish into thin air, an
RH> impossible event.
AS> Sure. But if you want to tell me that Jesus had a moving motorized
AS> platform and one of those large thin flat mirror surfaces you can
AS> unroll, which is how the Statue of Liberty thing was done, you need
to
AS> justify it.
AS> We aren't talking casual strangers mistaking someone else for
AS> Jesus. We're not talking Elvis sightings. We're talking people who
AS> knew Jesus, who had travelled and lived with him for over a year.
AS> Neat trick.
All he had to do was survive the cross for awhile.
Not nearly as incredible as the alternative. IMHO, of course.
... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Robert Berndt
|Sub: FOUNDING FATHER BELIE
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:53:00
EID:32fe 2067a6a0
-=> Quoting Robert Berndt to Styx Allum <=-
RB> Post your sources Styx, or it will be safe to assume that you made it
RB> up the quotes.
The quote was from a treaty with the Turks.
All you've done is show that George was a politician, well versed
in talking out of both sides of his mouth, as the occasion demanded.
... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1996
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 07 Mar 96 21:06:00
EID:b980 2067a8c0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Why not? Death with dignity, perhaps? Honor, perhaps?
AS> Because a dead man--at least as far as we can discern...can do no
AS> more good in the world. A live man can. I'm awfully glad that Steve
Matter of individual cases. A dead martyr is worth more than a live
rebel in some cases. A live comatose patient can do terrible harm
to his family's resources.
RH> Jesus thought he could force YHVH's hand if he deliberately fulfilled
RH> all the prophecies about the messiah. That's why he had to die.
AS> A voluntary sacrifice? A martyr to provoke God? Could be. But if He
AS> had faith in God then He wouldn't consider this second one...
RH> Or at least APPEAR to die....
Everyone's faith has its limits...
AS> You're having it both ways. Either He believed in Jehovah and the
AS> messianic prophecies, in which case he wouldn't have to fake
AS> anything, but
AS> went willingly to His death, or else He faked it, and knew His faith
AS> was false. One or the other.
Either one would work, but I think he survived the cross for awhile.
RH> Does not matter. Human life is superabundant. We do not need to
RH> preserve everything that MIGHT become human.
AS> I certainly agree birth control is needed. However, I wonder about
AS> the precedent, if nothing else. If we define a human being as one not
AS> born yet, what is the criteria for that? Because the fetus/baby is
For what? Birth? Seems pretty clear to me. Breath of life and all.
AS> linked with the mother? If a person is linked to a heart-lung machine
AS> are they less human? Is it because they cannot function as a human
Yes. A corpse can be kept "alive" that way.
AS> being does in some respects? But many afflicted cannot use the full
AS> range of human abilities.
AS> Will their lives someday also be deemed superfluous?
Probably. Ask your insurance company about that. HMOs will soon be
limiting the care you get based on a cost/benefit ratio.
AS> It is not a matter of logic. It is a matter of definition. If you
AS> feel a
AS> fetus is a human being, then abortion is murder, and all the
AS> justifications made will not lessen that. If you feel a fetus is just
AS> an extension of the mother, a parasite, not a full human being yet,
AS> than a mother can abort just as much as she can excise any unwanted
AS> growth. I really don't see any way out of this impasse, right now. And
AS> as medical science progresses more and more and is able to save
AS> children at younger and younger stages in the mother's pregnancy, I
AS> suspect the question will become even more heated.
Medical science raises many uncomfortable questions these days.
Human cloning will really cause problems. Frozen fertilized eggs
are already a problem. It will get worse.
RH> It also does not establish that any of them IS true either.
AS> Granted.
OBOY! Point for me!
AS> making that claim? And yet...there are many religions that claim a
AS> dying/reborn god/savior, but none of them have eyewitnesses. (Adonis.
RH> Koresh. Some of his people still believe in him. They say he is alive
RH> and in hiding.
AS> Do they claim he was miraculously saved? Or do they just believe they
AS> escaped by human means? Honestly curious here. I don't know.
Nor do I.
AS> And do some of them claim that they SAW the miracle? After all, the
AS> disciples claimed to see Jesus die. John said he was there. John and
AS> others also claimed to have seen a risen Jesus.
Claims, claims, claims. We want EVIDENCE.
AS> whipping given them by the Sanhedrin? You are basically saying one had
AS> the delusion
AS> and the rest are agreeing...in essence, lying. Remember how Jesus
No. They all saw the living Jesus.
AS> preached
AS> "the truth would set you free"? They were specifically going against
AS> their
AS> own teacher's precepts and managing to hold their tongue about even
AS> when being whipped, or in James the apostle's case, when being killed
AS> or imprisoned in Peter's case...?
AS> Unlikely. We literally have no way to guage the likelihood of
AS> miracles.
AS> But human behavior we know. If you tell me that JFK was haunted by
AS> the ghost of Lincoln, I can't estimate the probabilities. If you tell
AS> me JFK was J.Edgar Hoover's lover, I WILL laugh out loud. That I know.
Oh? You mean you didn't know?
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LIBRARIES
|Date: 07 Mar 96 21:17:00
EID:b331 2067aa20
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> If God does it, it's OK? Murder, rape, pillage, all OK if
RH> He orders it?
AS> Hmmm. Exactly HOW did you arrive at that conclusion from what I said
AS> above? I see nothing to indicate it. The answer is no.
Depended on a prior deleted statement as I recall. Made sense when
I typed it. And there ARE biblical examples as you well know.
RH> False analogy. God created hell and orders you there for the
RH> slightest infraction.
AS> And the engineer may have created the bridge. He may have caused the
AS> ravine into which you may fall, by blasting. I think it's a rather
AS> good analogy myself. As for the "slightest infraction"...the most
AS> henious crimes can be forgiven. All it takes is a word. There is no
AS> sin, no evil greater than God's grace. But even that is not forced on
AS> you. You only have to ask for it.
Look Al, if your God does not wish to be bothered with us after death,
we can just die. There is no logical justification for a lake of
fire. It's just the human wish for vengeance, no matter how delayed,
projected onto a "merciful" God.
AS> will examine Romans you will see that one's conscience can be an
AS> advocate before God for the pagans, so I think it is certainly
AS> conceivable...indeed, my own opinion...that a non-Christian or
AS> non-theist could still end up in a blissful afterlife for what he has
AS> done during life.)
"Not by works, lest any man should boast."
RH> Hard to justify biblically, since "no one comes to the Father...".
AS> Does that mean only those who consciously follow Jesus OR does it
AS> mean that Jesus is the final arbitrator of who shall come to the
AS> Father? Two different things. Both meanings, however, might be implied
AS> by the above statement...but the second also takes into account the
AS> statement in Romans. (I.E., Jesus could admit the good pagan into the
AS> Father's presence
AS> if He felt they were good in His sight, whether they had heard of
AS> Jesus or
AS> not.)
AS> Trust me, Roger. I can justify it biblicly quite well.
You mean you can twist any text to say what you wish?
... I'd rather ride the Wave than wallow in QWKsand!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: I'M WORKING ON IT
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:02:00
EID:9753 2066a840
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 05:10, Judith Bandsma got back to Marilyn Burge
A lot off topic here, but I didn't have to retype your name in
the TO: area!
Got a Netmail from Mike about you transmission problems and
Netmailed him back. Figured I let you know that that got
here, but nothing else.
TTYL!
... Our Dog who *.ART in Fido, says thou must use judicial quoting
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:07:00
EID:721a 2066a8e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 09:11, Jim Germiquet got back to Dan Ceppa
-> On 02-25-96 19:35, John Prewett got back to Sean Mccullough
SM>.............. it remains established that "Satan" does not exist.
JP> Sheer unsupported, unproven, unevidenced opinion noted.
DC> Got evidence that Satan exists, John? If so, lets see it.
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan.
How about the deity that your god can't handle?
JG> havent seen him take that form. But I am sure many of us have seen him
JG> take the form of people like Charles Manson :-)
Holds true for the likes of Swaggart and Baker, too.
Now, where is the evidence for the deity that's stronger than
your god?
... Bother said Pooh, as he got cattle-prodded in the nuts.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Atheist Hypocrisy
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:20:00
EID:904c 2066aa80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 00:07, David Johnston got back to Dan Ceppa
-> DJ> violate that commandment any more than it violates the present
-> laws.
-> I take it that you forgot about, "Though shalt not steal" as
-> well as the admonitions against taking out a loan.
DJ> Nope. The concept of intellectual property is fairly recent.
So is relatively the concept of Democracy and "All men are
created equal", equality for women, etc. Can they get ignored
because they aren't spelled out in an ancient book?
DJ> You are a fool. I never said I followed their dogma. I merely
DJ> disagree with the idea that a Christian is being inconsistent by
DJ> failing to register their software. But I am not myself a Christian.
Read above, David. You are condoning their hypocracy, unless of
course you disagree with the laws this country was founded on and
the rights it has given to its citizens.
Concepts change. The bible does not. Care to buy a slave? After
all, slavery is condoned in the bible, as well a plural marriages,
among other things. Also, may other things require condemnation,
like wearing clothes of mixed fibers. It's in the book, condemn
them for that. After all, they ignore that. What's one more
commandment being ignored?
... "Be not righteous overmuch." -- Ecclesiastes 7:16
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Baptism
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:23:00
EID:1b2a 2066aae0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 07:37, Brad Jackson got back to Shelby Sherman
BJ> You seem to think God has mad mistakes, when know in your heart
BJ> he hasn't!
The Flood was one of his maddest moments. Then, he showed such
grace by killing all of the Midianites, except for the virgins.
Thanks for pointing out your god's mental illness...
... "Silly fundies, gotta love 'em. There's no resale value." G T. Pooh
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:32:00
EID:e52b 2066ac00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 09:11, Jim Germiquet got back to Karen Davis
JG> I don't know much about the Constitution, as a Canadian but isn't
JG> there something about America being "one nation undivided UNDER GOD
"?
That wasn't there, until about 1954. The original pledge read, "... one
Nation, with Libery and Justice for all." McCarthy and his
communist witch hunt had the "under god" inserted there. Pretty
much the same reason that our money says, "in god we trust".
... "Oh, bother", said Pooh as he lit the end of the gas soaked rag.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:36:00
EID:68ee 2066ac80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 05:54, Andrew Masten got back to David Worrell
DW> home, the payments on your credit cards, etc.
DW> Got to take care of #1 first, right?
AM>
AM> Your just projecting your own nature into someone else.
Got a loan out for a car, Andy?
... When your IQ rises to 28, sell.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:38:00
EID:68ee 2066acc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 06:05, Andrew Masten got back to Kenneth Cavness
AM> DW> Here, let's make sure you actually *understand* what you claim to
be
AM> DW> evidence, ok?
AM> If you understand it well enough to refute it, then do so.
KC> [deletia]
KC> Andrew, you do realise that in sidestepping his demand that you
KC> explain how this is so, you are stuffing your credibility down the
KC> drain. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about,
KC> and are just blowing smoke out of your ass.
AM> Nonsense Kenneth. It is David Worrel who is blowing smoke. He is
AM> side- stepping the issue, and you bought into it.
Such a pity that you can't explain the "evidence" that you try
to spout. You dance real well, Andy. Amazing that you can do
so with all of those holes you shot in your foot.
... No evidence, no belief; know evidence, know belief.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:46:00
EID:68ee 2066adc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 06:28, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
AM> You claim that were here by natural causes apart from God.
DC> Seems that there is a "tad" more evidence that supports those
DC> natural causes than there is the shows a "god" exists.
AM> I haven't seen anyone bother to cite evidence of how the universe
AM> self assembled out of atoms, and then atoms ultimately self
AM> assembled into man. Yeah, I sure would like to see that evidence!!
Try using Occam's razor and giving yourself a close shave.
There is evidence that the universe exists. There is none
to show that your god exists. As it stands right now, there
is plenty of evidence that the BB occured. The background
radiation points to it.
If you don't like th theory, then, do the research and show
that the theory is wrong. Pointing to "god did it" won't
cut it, anymore than if you said the Easter Bunny laid the
cosmic egg.
... The inspiration in the Bible depends on the ignorance of the reader.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:58:00
EID:9f4c 2066af40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 09:11, Jim Germiquet got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> other ones, even more so if the other ones are accepted. Where
DC> the problem is when one ideology claims to be the only true one.
JG> WHo cares whether they claim to be the only one. That is NOT the
JG> problem. The problem is when one ideology interferes with the rights
of
JG> other people.
Basically, that's what I said. The "true ideology" does it's
best (worst) to inforce it's rules and regulations and dogma. One
that can co-exist with other ideologies has at least learned
the important lesson of tolerance for different ideas.
... Charon was known among fellow ferrymen as the grip reamer. Styx Allum
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Robert Berndt
|Sub: Founding Father Beliefs
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:33:00
EID:e404 20673c20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 23:35, Robert Berndt got back to Styx Allum
SA>> This is not a Christian nation. Don't just take my word for it. Take
RB> George Washington's.
RB> In researching the material, I discovered the following quotes from
RB> George Washington, which I am sure many of you will find very
RB> interesting:
RB> It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the
RB> Bible. -The Myth of Separation (Aledo, TX: Wallbuilder Press, 1991)
Please point out just where Washington, or any other president
for that matter, mentions "Christ" in their inaugural addresses.
All note that not one of your quotes mentions "Christ" or "Jesus".
You do know what deism is, don't you?
... Jesus is part of a trinity, Elvis' first band was a trio.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:36:00
EID:d87b 20673c80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 12:51, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> Better yet, send her to your mother-in-law until then. After all,
DC> I intend to protect my daughter, not torture her!
DM> It's gonna be pretty tough preserving your 'god' status
DM> around here with them kinda sentiments, podner . . .
ROTF! You got to remember, unlike Kenny Mcabee's god, I don't
require the sacrifice of children!
... Yes I know that, but I do not care. - Steve Bedard
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:39:00
EID:2eb0 20673ce0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 09:11, Jim Germiquet got back to Ryan Shaw
JG> Would you prefer they encouraged people to bear and keep arms.
It's been in our Constitution for over 100 yrs now.
... "Bother," said Pooh, as his left side went all numb and tingly.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: Viability
|Date: 07 Mar 96 07:44:00
EID:4704 20673d80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 08:31, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> And, having that ransom in your pocket, you proceed to persecute
DC> all that don't follow you hatred. How convenient.
AM> Who, when and where am I persecuting someone Dan.
The "you" in my statement is about your religion. Or have you
forgotten all the "good" things that it has down in your godling's
name, like: The Inquisition, the Crusades, witch hunts...
Face it Any, your religion is nothing more than ancient superstition
and is attempting to keep it alive today by hindering the education
process.
... The believer is happy; the doubter is wise.. Hungarian proverb
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 07 Mar 96 08:06:00
EID:383b 206740c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 17:19, Mark Barnett got back to Dawn Kleuser
MB> I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should also
MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
You book of fables also says the Noah's Flood happened. Got
any evidence for that, too?
... "I could save them, but I don't wanna.": God
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 07 Mar 96 08:11:00
EID:2514 20674160
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 09:04, Al Schroeder got back to Karen Davis
AS> thousand other religions, martyrdom or suffering or imprisonment or
AS> not. They also claimed to have WITNESSED Him...returning from the
AS> dead. ALL of them.
No, Al... There isn't a single direct account that says that
anyone say him rise from the dead. Not only that, at least
one of the gospels tells of all the disciples running away
before the supposed death occured upon the cross. The didn't
even have first hand knowledge that he was truly dead.
... Can you show us where you parked your gods, Al Schroeder?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Message to Asmodeus
|Date: 07 Mar 96 13:48:00
EID:f1fe 20676e00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893A0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 03:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
JH> And you owe me two bucks. (I'm joining the Friends Of Al Schroeder
JH> class action suit.)
DC> a free man in the year 200,001 or so...
AS> Open and shut case. I hope Asmodiddly is RICH...I could care less
AS> if we jail him. (Maybe a court order not to go near a computer for
AS> purposes of communication for the rest of his life, though...)
That in itself should be made into a law, just on GP alone. However,
it would lower the humor content a bit...
... Beer: You don't buy it, you only rent it...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Enoch Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 7 Mar 96 12:47:02
EID:a1b6 206765e0
MSGID: 1:231/1200@fido 313f2f2f
PID: CNet 3.0
On Thu 7-Mar-1996 12:07p, Jim Germiquet wrote:
JG> -=> Quoting Enoch Jones to All <=-
JG> EJ> Atheists have nothing to do with "morals" in the sense that a
JG> EJ> Christian thinks of being 'virtuous' [interesting sidebar: in
the
JG> EJ> early Christian church many fathers didn't believe "virtue" was
JG> EJ> necessary to be a Christian--this virtuosity was an influence of
JG> stoic,
JG> EJ> Greek philosophy which led to ascetism, etc; the point of being
JG> EJ> "christian" is that one is a follower of Christ who takes away
the
JG> EJ> condemnation of not being virtuous [see the Law of Moses which
failed
JG> EJ> miserably]]. Atheists act by being objective--sure they can yield
to
JG> EJ> emotionalism, pride, arrogance, etc., but it has been my experience
JG> EJ> that persons who thrive on being objective lack the neurosis of
JG> pride,
JG> EJ> arrogance and bigotry that run rampant throughout mysticism-based
JG> EJ> religions like modern Christianity.
JG>
JG> I suppose you could say that is also true of the sociopath who could
JG> slit your throat and serve your brains on a platter to your family
JG> without a tinge of guilt. No terrible "emotionalism" there.
Well, there you go...if you can't attack the argument, emotionalize the
issue with rash generalizations, or should I say sweeping generalizations??
Thanks for being an exhibition for what I so eloquently stated about neurotic
emotionalism vs objectivity.
JG> I think the MAIN emphases of Christ was LOVE.
JG> Remember he said ALL of the Laws of Moses would be fulfilled if we
JG> followed but 2 commandments.
JG> 1) Love god
JG> 2) Love your neighbor.
JG> Now of course love means many things to many people, but the bible give
JG> this definition of love starting in 1st corinthians 13:4.
JG> Love is patient and kind. It does not envy, it does not boast,
JG> it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is
JG> not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not
JG> delight in evil but rejoices in the truth. it always protects,
JG> always trusts, always hopes, always preserves. Love never fails.
That, of course, is the Pauline/virtue argument of "love"...
It defines to the letter what behaviors one who "loves" will follow; perhaps,
if you had stopped at the Sermon on the Mount which says 'do unto others
as you would have them do unto you'? Jesus, like so many gurus before,
laid down an objective moral fabric--an exchange between persons. 1 Cor
13:4 is okay, but it still leaves many thinks vague. What is "truth" [quote
Pilot and I'll shoot...]? What is a "wrong"? what is "evil"? what is
a "failure", "failing"? what is protecting, and when does protecting become
obsessive codependency? What is being "easy to anger" versus annoyance,
indignation, wrath? what is "self-seeking" versus self-preservation? what
is "boasting" versus a record of accomplishments? What is "rude" versus
invading a sanctuary and overturning tables and whipping persons?
--- CNet/3
* Origin: Eagle's Corner Indianapolis 317-578-4202/7335 (1:231/1200)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 08 Mar 96 08:54:34
EID:2738 206846c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 1379c1ca
REPLY: 1:271/460 313cffbf
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
KM> talking about it. But of course, I believe it, and have reason to
KM> want to talk about. What logic do you have to spend so much time on
KM> something you don't believe? Kenneth Mcabee
Because, little Wormabee, you...much like your addicted-to fundy beliefs...are
a nothing more then a great source of endless amusement to us. The fact
that you don't even REALIZE this...makes it even more enjoyable.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:05:49
EID:0ff1 206848a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 1379c1ce
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 313d9f68
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Mark Staal wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
MS> people in Smoke can't handle a nickname of LUMP....Gets too
MS> confusing for some, and they keep getting it mixed up
MS> Oh yeah, They look the same....JIM....LUMP....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAA!!!! YOU said it, Lumpy flea! :D
Thanks for being a true fundy insect...and a great source for laughs!
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:02:00
EID:2e0f 20684840
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 1379c1cc
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 1b80f676
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Staal wrote in a message to Fredric Rice:
FR> You may not leave until _I_ say you may.
JS> Does that mean I have to come back???
You have NO choice in the matter, Staalie. You are always the jeezoid...and
hence must do exactly as you are told. Now... lie for your little myth-gawds,
as they do not have any power to speak on their own.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:16:15
EID:4281 20688a00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3140b1af
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Steve Wallis Re: fof update, staal wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DC> Kill any doctors lately, Steve?
SW> It says in the Bible "Thou shalt not kill" But to answer your
It also says "Now kill therefore every male among the little ones, and
every woman that hath known man by lying with him." Kill any little
kids lately?
... "But hey, that's why your false christian scum." - Steve Winter.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: artificial reproducti
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:16:15
EID:d707 20688a00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3140b1b0
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: artificial reproducti wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> It isn't overpopulation you have to worry about. Look at everything
Tell that to the Africans who are starving to death.
JG> man's technology has touched. Disasters, oil spills, nuclear
Polio vaccinations, the virtual death of smallpox, a great extension of
the average lifespan, better hygiene, and a number of other diverse
benefits.
If you want to bitch about technology, then do it from a cave in the
wilderness, wearing nothing but your own skin. Otherwise, you risk
being branded a hypocrite, and justly so.
... Experience is what causes a person to make new mistakes instead of old
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Christianity
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:33:03
EID:00f1 20662c20
Christianity:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
NS> Jim Germiquet > Norbert Sykes : Christianity
EH> I do have one loan out. I have a loan out for a car, but no
EH> credit cards, no other loans, straight cash. I agree that we
EH> should not take out loans, but it couldn't be helped. My wife
EH> had wrecked the car we had paid cash for, shortly after we
EH> bought it. We had a little saved up for our next car, but not
EH> enough to purchase another one. So, we were forced to go get a
EH> loan, or walk.
JH> I see...
JH> You love comfort and convenience more than you love God.
NS> Maybe he didn't want to have to wait for God to pick him up. I
NS> could understand that. I'd _never_ loan my car to God. He is
JG> Whats with the personal attacks ? Is somebody hard up for debating
JG> properly? Use the old "personal attack" tactic?
NS> What personal attack do you see in this? Did I attack either of
NS> the two above? Did I attack you? Are you on 'shrooms?
JG> Reread what you have quoted up there. It is full of "you's" or
JG> personal references as opposed to general comments on the principles
JG> and concepts being discussed.
I quoted someone else that may or may not have been attacking
somebody else. I attacked no one. Are you clearly unable to
understand this? If you want to question JH's technique, why don't
you criticize JH to his face, rather than attacking me? I'll even
give you a hint: the quotes starting with NS> are mine. All of the
others _belong_ to others. Dunce.
JG> And JH then states "YOU love ... more tha God" What right is there to
JG> make such an accusation. It is like saying if you love God, you are
JG> not allowed to enjoy comfort and convenience. And then to
JG> "personalize" it by saying "You" makes it an attack that a person now
JG> has to defend his personal integrity. That to me is not a proper
JG> debating tactic.
I see. You somehow are convinced that I controlled JH's thoughts
and actions to the point that I would make HIM attack EH? You really
are stupid, aren't you? If you have a problem with the words of JH,
go to JH about them. Or are you a coward?
JG> What an individual does, has nothing to do with whether or not it
JG> is the right thing to do. Also we can do things we don't like to
JG> do without it being any kind of comment on our love for god.
JG> Some pretty cheap shots are being thrown around here I would say.
But not by me. And, by attacking me this way, you epitomize the
cheap shot. If you can't afford a clue, ask, and someone may be
able to supply one.
NS> If you can take your eyes away from the proctoscope long enough,
NS> you'll see that *I* didn't question _anyone's_ morality, ethics,
NS> etc., above. And cheap shots are POV dependent.
JG> there was an accusation of "YOU love comfort and convenience more than
JG> you love God." You can't get much more "personal" than that. And it
JG> certainly does constitute questioning a persons morality in my humble
JG> opinion.
What a fucking moron you are. All the questioning mentioned was
done by JH, NOT by me. I told you just nine lines above this that
*I* didn't do any attack, but you're such OBVIOUS idiot that _that_
even escaped you. Do everyone a favor, don't reproduce . . . you
wouldn't be helping out the gene pool any in the department of
intelligence.
JG> Also my humble POV.
I bet you can see your colon from where your POV is . . .
... Jim's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:42:15
EID:03ea 20662d40
Thumb-sucking Fundy:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
JG> God can only reveal himself to man as man is able to perceive of God.
NS> I can buy that we are only able to perceive things in accordance to
NS> our ability to perceive, yes. But that is _us_. If your god is an
NS> omnipotent god, then he COULD choose to make a total and true
NS> revelation of himself. Right? Now, either he choses to have
NS> skewed perceptions, is not omnipotent, or doesn't exist. Which of
NS> those three choices would you subscribe to? Blaming man's
NS> limitations for the manifestation of a supreme being is idiocy. If
NS> it IS a supreme being, the limitations of man should have no sway.
JG> God does make a total and true revelation of himself, it is WE who
JG> choose to ignore it or misconstrue it or disbelieve it. The whole
JG> point is that Man must be free to choose, in order to be man.
JG> To do as you suggest would be totally counter productive to Gods'
JG> intentions. Children often rebel against their parents because they
JG> do not understand the rules. Make your bed, Be in by 11, No dating
JG> until you are older.
I get it, god's in disguise, right? What is he hiding as today?
My front step? My dog? A toaster? I bet god's a bagel. I just
bet it. Excuse me, I have to go talk to my bagel. I repeat, its
a bad workman who blames his tools.
JG> The children are not mature enough to understand why these rules are
JG> there. They think it is cruel and unusual punishment. It is the same
JG> between God and his rebellious children.
He oughta spank them. I'll help him spank them. Let's round the
little bastards up right now . . .
JG> THESE are the perceptions men had of the will of god in these
JG> situations. Man is not always correct in his perceptions.
. . . and there's no way to ever tell if he's perceiving correctly
or not, is there?
NS> I can understand this as well: that no one is always correct in
NS> their perceptions. But a supreme being, unless it was being petty,
NS> could choose to strengthen those perceptions, is that not correct?
NS> Especially a supreme being that supposedly engineered those
NS> perceptions. It is a lousy craftsman who blames his tools.
JG> Yes ! And that is what God is doing by allowing us freedom of choice.
JG> Those perceptions are a product of the choosing experience. Even
JG> Anthony Robbins will tell you that we LEARN from our mistakes.
*DING* *GOOBER ALERT* Anthony Robbins is a salesman, nothing more.
JG> We have
JG> to learn to make the right choices. In order to do that we must be
JG> free to make those choices. God gives us the right choices to make he
JG> sent the ten commandments but it is up to us to CHOOSE to follow them.
JG> I can tell you that it is dangerous to speed in a car. But you can
JG> choose to speed if you want. That is free will, even though there
JG> is a law that says don't speed. If you try and manipulate a man like
JG> a puppet and not allow him to do what is wrong, he no longer is a man.
Which 10 Commandments are you speaking of?
JG> The essence is in this common quotation.
JG> "If you love something set it free"
JG> "If it comes back to you it is yours"
JG> "If it doesnt, it never was"
. "If it doesn't, hunt it down and kill it." };)
JG> You can kidnap a person and force them to live with you and do what
JG> you say, but you can't force them to love you, care about you, be
JG> your friend.
JG> And that is what God wants. He want us to love him and be with him
JG> because we "want" to, not because we have to.
Yet if we don't we're banished to Hell. Some friend.
JG> On top of that when people choose to do things that they know will
JG> require they forfeit their own lives, It is they who choose their fate.
So free will doesn't exist.
NS> I agree that everyone makes their own fate. But where is your
NS> evidence that Jim Jones, etc., knew that they were engaged in acts
NS> of a questionable nature? How do you know that they didn't believe
NS> what they were doing was right? That would certainly be in keeping
NS> with the self-delusion that blind faith encourages.
JG> I don't know what they believed. It is irrelevant. I am not the one
JG> that will judge them.
JG> I don't know much about the Jim Jones folks, but from the little I
JG> have heard, they did things that God tells me are not in the best
JG> interests of man.
Uhm, is god talking to you *right* minute?
... scratch here: >>>>>>>>>> ŰŰŰŰ <<<<<<<<<< ...smells like glass, huh?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:45:40
EID:6354 20662da0
Waco Rememberance:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
NS> Especially if the people were there at the whim of a madman who
NS> raped them, abused them, and held them hostage. It's unfortunate
NS> that innocents died, but the US Government was not the one that put
NS> those people at risk. Certainly, many of them had a chance to
NS> leave at various times. BTW, I understand that in some parts of
NS> the country a warrant isn't necessary if a law enforcement officer
NS> can prove probably cause. Not being cognizant with the laws in
NS> Texas, nor the law as it applies to Federal Law Enforcement
NS> Officers in this situation, but aware of what the news coverage was
NS> like, as well as the press information, I'm satisfied that the BAFT
NS> people did all they could. The blame lies squarely on Koresh and
NS> anyone there that could have go out and didn't. And those people
NS> can probably apply blame to Koresh as well.
JG> I can't say I agree with that. I am not satisfied that the BAFT
JG> handled it in the best way possible. the problem is that hindsight is
JG> 20/20. Now who would have thought that sending that tank in to knock
JG> down a wall would ignite the place in flames. that was not a
JG> predictable event.
I would gladly change my mind if someone could show me what the
BAFT could have done instead in the situation that would be in
keeping with their law-enforcement procedures.
JG> Unless there was a clear indication that people were being harmed
JG> inside, I don't think an armed assault was appropriate. more
JG> appropriate would be to ask permission for an unarmed neutral person
to
JG> enter the farm to see what the conditions were. Then much more
JG> negotiations may have been in order. But I am not sure if these options
JG> had already been exhausted.
It was my understanding that there was a very clear indication of
people being harmed within.
JG> But when children may be in danger, there comes a time when you have
JG> to decide if this was a Jim Jones thing where those children might be
JG> involved in a murder suicide plot of the principles involved.
Say what?
... Courtesy is Owed; Respect is Earned; Love is Given
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:50:21
EID:cb97 20662e40
Your Daily Death Cult:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
> SIGNS OF LOVE
> Read: John 14:15-24
> If you love Me, keep my commandments.
> -John 14:15
FR> SIGNS OF HATE
FR> Read: Luke 14:26
FR> "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and
FR> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
FR> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
JG> Why do I get the feeling that this verse has been misinterpreted ?
NS> I don't know Jim . . . why?
JG> Because the god I know would not mean this in the literal sense of the
JG> words above as we mean them today.
. . . even though killing people is his favorite thing to do . . .
JG> What do you think the word "hate" really means here, apart from the
JG> common way we think of the word hate today?
. . . uhm, hate . . .
JG> the only definition in my dictionary that does not indicate hostility
JG> or intense dislike is .. "to be unwilling". I think all it really
JG> means is that anyone who "loves" their mother wife children brothers
JG> sister or life "more" than god cannot be Jesus's disciple.
*BANG* I'm outta here . . . I love all of my loved ones much more
than JC . . .
JG> The question
JG> of who you will obey comes up. So if God says "do x" and your mom says
JG> "do not do x". You have to show "hate" toward
JG> your mother.
Screw that. If god tells me to murder my son, I flip the bird at
god and go my merry way . . . if god wants to off someone, he has
to do the dirty work himself.
JG> SO I have attempted here by even using "todays" dictionary to show
JG> that to "hate" your mother does not have to be a terrible thing in
JG> terms of the definition you choose for the word hate.
Coming from the guy that thought it was okay to kill women and
children and rape virgins, well, that isn't saying a lot.
JG> But the "impression" you get just from quoting the verse literally
JG> does not do justice to the meaning or intent of the concept.
I just read what it says. I don't have to go through elaborate
semantic gymnastics to nice it up.
... "Christianity: the single most devisive force known to humanity." -
DR
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:52:08
EID:ac58 20662e80
Your Daily Murder:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE.
NS> How, by any stretch of the imagination, can you actually THINK
NS> this???
JG> Think about it.
NS> Take your own advice. Give thought a chance in your brain. Kill
NS> women and babies and children? You actually endorse this?
JG> As I explained in a previous message, I said this "tongue in cheek".
JG> But I also indicated that in a different time and way of life, this
may
JG> have been appropriate behavoir, although it is not in our time and
JG> society that we live in.
I don't buy it that you were 'tongue in cheek', especially since
you defended it once.
And as far as I'm concerned, there's not time that this sort of
barbarism was appropriate. You're all just a bunch of bloodthirsty
savages, you know that?
... An obvious result of forced potty training. -- George Rudzinski
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Al Schroeder
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:55:32
EID:e165 20662ee0
Al Schroeder:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
DM> Nah. Then we'd only having some loon claiming that he has
DM> known FOUR people with clitorectomies.
JG> Better than knowing a person with FOUR clitorectomies :-)
NS> How can one person have four clitorectomies? Almost all of the
NS> women on this planet only have one clitorus (though some may dream,
NS> I hesitate to say all women, because who knows what's out there . .
NS> .) and that would be gone after the first clitorectomy. I know it's
NS> kinda moist and marshy down there, but I'm pretty sure they don't
NS> grow back, as a salamander may regenerate a lost limb, etc.
JG> That's why I said that knowing 4 people with a clitorecomy is BETTER
JG> than knowing a person with 4 clitorectomy's. I dunno make it is
JG> a flashback from watching David Brenner or Steinburgh or STeinbrenner
JG> or whoever that comedian was that was before his time :-)
Don't give up your day job.
... God loves you. Everyone else thinks you're an ass.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: [2/2] Viability
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:56:36
EID:43f9 20662f00
[2/2] Viability:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
>>> Part 2 of 2...
JG> what we were meant to be. But it is a CHOICE ! Choose this day
JG> who you will serve. Do you wanna be just another animal species, or
JG> a spiritual being?
I wanna be Vanna White's vibrator. Really.
... Seems like he wants vegimite on both sides of his toast. -- Some Kiwi
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: FOF "HATE" 2
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:58:07
EID:83dd 20662f40
Re: FOF "HATE" 2:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Kenneth Cavness, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
KC> At the time, I didn't know where Fire Island, the setting of the play
KC> was. For some reason, I thought it was off the coast of New York. Eugh.
KC> It's off the coast of San Francisco. Sigh. Other than that, I made
a
KC> 78 on the paper (because I got the setting wrong) After seeing the
KC> play, I was amazed at how accurate my review had been.
NS> Uhm, Fire Island is in New York, not California. I live within a
NS> hundred miles of San Francisco and the only islands I've seen off
NS> the coast are Yerba Buena, Alcatraz, North and South Marin Islands,
NS> and some desolate small rocky ones that host a lot of seals.
KC> See my point? =) I still confuse the damn places.
I understand.
KC> You know how easy it is to confuse the East and West coasts. :P
As a friend would say, they're both insane asylums . . .
... God is a malign thug. -- Mark Twain
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: FOF "HATE" 2
|Date: 06 Mar 96 05:59:29
EID:12e5 20662f60
FOF "HATE" 2:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Judith Bandsma, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Kenneth Cavness <=-
NS> Uhm, Fire Island is in New York, not California. I live within a
NS> hundred miles of San Francisco and the only islands I've seen off
JB> The Fire Island in SF is a state of mind, not a physical place.
JB> The original was (maybe still is) in New York and is/was an artist's
JB> colony. Fire Island in SF encompasses the Castro and parts of the
JB> Embarcadero.
I can understand this. I love Halloween down in that section of
the city. You haven't lived until you've almost been knocked down
by a dozen rollerskating men in nun's outfits. Gives religion a
whole new perspective.
... "It's a Eunuchs' program"? No, I want something _I_ can use...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Re: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 06 Mar 96 06:01:11
EID:f2b3 20663020
US Bans AbortionSpeak on:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Robert Jackson, 40% Sugars,
& 49% Inert Materials.
NS> Last night saw Dennis Miller, who said: When is Bill Clinton ever
NS> going to wise up and tell us the truth . . . "Yes, I inhaled, and
NS> then I drank the fuckin' bong water!"
NS>
NS> Bong. Another word on the 'Huh' list . . . BTW, wasn't it
RJ>
RJ> Nah. Bongs are still quite popular today.
Popular they may be, but it's harder than hell to try to buy one
anymore . . . good thing I know how to make them . . . };)
... "Not another list, Franz?!?"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: FLOOD
|Date: 06 Mar 96 14:05:04
EID:4138 206670a0
Re: FLOOD:
1% David Worrell, 10% Kenneth Cavness,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, David Worrell said to Kenneth Cavness:
DW> 28 Feb 96 10:26, Kenneth Cavness wrote to Fredric Rice:
ns>> God sent 'angles'? How did he know they
ns>> were the 'right angles' to send?
FR>> He hasn't a 'ray' of hope of answering that.
KC> You really have crossed the line. This entire argument is
KC> perpendicular to the original speaker's intent.
DW> Et tu, Kenn?
KC> Is my comment circular in some way?
You're not being obtuse, are you? };)
... I recognize the face on Mars! It's Mr. Clean!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 06 Mar 96 14:11:52
EID:4e07 20667160
Re: Heavenly Father:
1% Brad Jackson, 10% Kenneth Cavness,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, Brad Jackson said to All:
BJ> Greetings!
BJ> God is a spirit.
KC> Then drink up!
Please, I'd like my god on the rocks with some bitters and a twist
of lemon. And some pretzels or popcorn if you have any.
Oh, what the hell, god for everyone! I'm buying! Just don't get
too much, the last thing you want to do is to end up at the tail of
the evening hucking god into the toilet . . .
... Seems like he wants vegimite on both sides of his toast. -- Some Kiwi
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Staal probably also believes in McDowell
|Date: 06 Mar 96 14:21:34
EID:433e 206672a0
Staal probably also believes in McDowell:
1% Kenneth Mcabee, 10% Fredric Rice,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
km> "And again David if God asked me to kill
km> my son, I would see it as a sacrifice."
FR> And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
FR> it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
FR> the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
FR> There's the full admission. Well? Have you murdered your own son
FR> yet?
Why not just ask him point blank: Ken, if God asked you to kill
your son, would you do it? Yes or No? I look forward to his
answer on this one.
... All true wisdom is found on T-shirts.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 06 Mar 96 14:41:37
EID:d840 20667520
Angels or Demons???:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% J.J. Hitt,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
>>Mark 1:31 And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted
>> her up; and immediately the fever left her, and she
>> ministered unto them.
NS> I don't care how sick she is, get her moving to get my
NS> dinner . . .
NS> You know, this has a lot of potential. And think of all
NS> the headaches we could save people who try like hell to
NS> interpret this stuff. We'll need a catchy title though ...
NS> how about THE Book?
JH> I like the concept, but I think that name has already been used.
JH> How about Good News For Stupid People?
Wait, I got a better one! How about `God Noose For Stupid People'?
... This copy of Jehovah unregistered for six plus millennia.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ALL
|Sub: Brice Wellingtonisms
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:05:00
EID:50a1 206180a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Brice Wellinton on "Race" and "Color"
___----------------------------------
>I didn't read that and nor would I want to, in no way am
>I asian or African. There are three (3) races in this world,
>pay attention please, they are white, Black and mongolian.
>Mongolian consist of Asians and Spanish. I am white as
>white can be. -- 01-11-95
>The spanish and asians share the same skin color,
>the spanish are not as yellow but are nowhere near
>the white person. -- 01-12-95
>Now you look here, there are 3 major races as I wrote
>before, Red skins don't count, they are but a few left.
>Trace them back and you may find they were white
>before coming here... Indians were not always here.
> -- 01-13-95
>Its safe to say every dark is a black and light is a
>white, anything else is mongolian. -- 01-16-95
>I am English and have Black Hair and blue eyes,
>almost perfect. -- 01-18-95
>Jews are white. -- 01-18-95
>English came from England, its always been that way
>for as long as we can trace back, of course there are
>mixed breeds around. -- 01-24-95
... "Wait a minute. Those boots. That leather. Those legs. Xena!" -- Samon
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ALL
|Sub: Christianity=division
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:14:00
EID:0caa 206181c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
From: kateb@pop.jaxnet.com (Kate Bragg)
=======================================
My brother is a fundamentalist Christian. I am an atheist. My
brother and his wife have taught their children since they
could CRAWL, that I was evil and despicable and not very
nice. I didn't really care. Sometimes I even thought it was
funny to see fear in their eyes at their "evil" Aunt Kate.
Well, it isn't funny anymore.
His oldest daughter (aged 19), is having severe doubts about
Christianity and all of the bullshit it entails. Through this
has come to her the realization that I am not the evil myth
that they have been taught.
When she first came to me with all of this, I told her that I
had to tread carefully and not get caught up in the middle of
this, because sooner or later, they would find a way to blame
ME for whatever happened between my niece and her family.
This has happened. On chrismas day, my brother and his family
refused to go to my grandfather's house for the traditional
Chrismas breakfast until my children and I left. I must add
that my Grandpa is 90 and in poor health, and this would have
most likely been his very last chrismas.
There is a lot more to this story that I won't go into, but I
wanted to point out that when people here say that fundies
are harmless--- they aren't. But they have an amazing capacity
for seeing themselves as blameless in whatever happens and
putting blame on someone who had nothing whatsoever to do
with whatever is going on in their lives. I am a victim of
such treatment. Now I am in fear of them. I just don't deal
too well with crazy people.
... "Leave it to an ATHEIST to decide there is no god." -- net.fundy
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ALL
|Sub: Taking Fundies to Task
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:17:00
EID:90cd 20618220
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
A.S.R.C. Rev David Michael Rice
P.O. Box 13670 -------------------
Columbus, Ohio ----------------
43213 -----
January 5th, 1996
To Dennis Conley, Editor, The Believer's Chronicle
I have received your undated letter today, Friday the
fifth. I am somewhat at a loss to understand why you felt the
need to castigate Mister Till in a letter you have presumably
mailed to each one of your 1,586 subscribers. (At the
first-class rate used to send the letter I have received, it
would have cost you $507.52 in just postage, let alone any
refund for issues not received by subscribers.) I cannot
imagine why you would send such a letter to anyone other than
Mister Till.
Enclosed please find the returned check of $14.17 (from
you). When I sent my subscription check, I had made a
personal commitment to pay for the right to read your
newsletter. Now that the newsletter is defunct, perhaps as a
personal favor to me and my sense of commitment you will keep
the check and use the money in some worthwhile endeavor. You
could send it to the American Civil Liberties Union, or the
Institute for First Amendment Studies, or to Planned
Parenthood, or some such organization.
Well over two weeks ago I received from Mister Till what
could be called an "advanced copy" of his letter to you,
though what the entire contents was, I do not know. He voiced
his concerns about just how large your readership was, and he
expressed his doubts that it is as large as you report.
Surely you must understand that a busy man like Mister Till
should not expend his valuable time writing for a newsletter
than may have few readers. Mister Till's The Skeptical Review
appears to be a full-time job in itself, let alone working on
his daily Internet correspondence and fulfilling any
traveling and speaking commitments Mister Till may have. If
The Believer's Chronicles has, let one say, 80 or 90 readers,
I cannot see how it would be worth Mister Till's time (or
anyone's) to write for them.
Before I address the second letter (the one with your
check) you have sent to me, I would like to discuss the first
letter (not dated either) that I received on or around
November 23. You asked me how I had heard of The Stupid
Christian Chronicle.
I read about The Stupid Christian Chronicle in Mister
Till's The Skeptical Review, of which I am a subscriber. The
submission requirements for The Stupid Christian Chronicle,
as reported by Mister Till in The Skeptical Review, were odd
enough to make me want to see if he was mistaken (that is not
the only reason I subscribed to The Stupid Christian
Chronicle: I subscribe to many religious newsletters).
As I said, I cannot conceive of why you would send the
second letter I have received from you to anyone other than
Mister Till, since your complaint appears to be with him.
Most of your readers will never see Mister Till's letter
which you are responding to, as no doubt few of them
subscribe to The Skeptical Review. Mister Till brought up
many perfectly valid questions and criticisms: you could have
honestly answered them, or you could have told him you choose
not to answer them. Instead you resorted to special pleading,
evasion, and the ad hominem. Rather than deal with Mister
Till fairly and rationally, you appear to have chosen to use
him as an excuse to abandon publication of The Believer's
Chronicle.
I question your sanity when you write that "Satan" was
responsible for you throwing in the towel. It may please you
in a megalomaniacal way to believe you have such powerful
enemies as "Satan" (and Mister Till), but surely you do not
expect your readers to share in your hallucinations and
delusions of grandeur. I suggest that if you really believe
"Satan" had a hand in your abandoning the newsletter, perhaps
you could benefit from psychotherapy. I am not a psychologist
or psychiatrist, but I can see when someone is in trouble as
you appear to me to be. Your blaming "Satan" for your
decisions does not appear healthy to me.
Needless to say, I think Mister Till had NOTHING AT ALL to
do with your choice to no longer publish The Believer's
Chronicle. That lame dog won't hunt. Over the many years I
have read Mister Till's articles, I have found him to be,
without exception, extraordinarily fair to Bible
Inerrantists--- he goes to great length to provide space for
Inerrantists to express their beliefs and to address
criticism. I have never met Mister Till, nor do I owe him any
favors: therefore, when I say that I find his honesty to be
impeccable and his motives to be fair, just, and virtuous, I
do so out of the respect he has earned. If more Born Again
Christians and Bible Inerrantist were as intellectual honest
and fair as I have always found Mister Till to be, I dare say
a great many non-believers would not look at Christianity
and Christians with such well-earned disdain. Sling as much
mud at Mister Till as you wish: I will not buy it unless and
until you produce some evidence that it is justified. Be
ashamed, Mister Conley.
You have refused to explain which parent publication The
Believer's Chronicle calved off of--- that refusal is absurd
and irresponsible! I have never heard of such behavior of a
publisher outside of samizdat. Your story about a division
among the ranks of A.S.R.C. being responsible for your
silence on the issue seems weak to me.
Perhaps you have acquired the proprietary mailing list of
the parent publication and you don't want them to know.
Perhaps the parent publication was worth Mister Till's time
writing to, but not yours.
So you see why Mister Till's inquiry concerning the parent
publication is a valid one. Why have you not, as far as I
know, told Mister Till who the parent publication is? Why do
you wish Mister Till to be unable to contact them?
As for the size of your readership (ex-readership), again
Mister Till had excellent reasons to question you on the
issue. Instead of giving the man some kind of good-faith
assurance (the post office would be quite happy to give you a
receipt that you could have mailed to Mister Till), you chose
to insult and belittle him in a letter that was presumably
mailed to over one-and-a-half thousand people. I, too, find
myself skeptical of your claim [of] over 1,500 subscribers.
As to your newsletter, I found the "believers" to be
ignorant, childish, arrogant, obnoxious, and grossly
ill-informed--- to such an extent that I pause to wonder if
the newsletter was an elaborate put-on (i.e. con job) to make
people who believe in God to appear foolish baboons. The
article on numerology was sufficient to demonstrate your
complete lack of sincerity.
Concerning the grossly foolish, inane, asinine numerology
article, if one is to take the author's word for it, God has
used the "power in numbers" to show us that the Messiah Jesus
is The Beast of Revelation: multiply the English alphabet's
sequence by nine (A=9, B=18, C=27, all the way to Z=234).
Adding up the word JESUS, we get 666. MESSIAH also reduces to
666. Now, would you publish this Novian numerological
technique along with the other one? Why or why not?
Needless to say, one can manipulate numbers to perform all
kinds of mysterious tricks--- does that mean God is
responsible? Or does it means that ignorant fools are too
stupid to think critically? Innumeracy is a social problem
that is exasperated by editors like you who choose to fuel
it. (You may pick up a book about the problems of Innumeracy
at Prometheus Books.)
To conclude, I found your behavior towards Mister Till to
be dastardly and your braggartly rationalizations to be
discreditable. If your goal was to make yet one more
Christian look the incompetent, arrogant, irresponsible,
ignorant, self-righteous, bumbling dullard, you couldn't have
done a much better job. Just what WAS your goal for your
newsletter? To make believers appear to all be imbeciles?
... "Leave it to an ATHEIST to decide there is no god." -- net.fundy
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ALL
|Sub: 'American 'Athiest''
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:18:00
EID:f680 20618240
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Apparently the National "Pro-Life" Association has set up a
page on the Web calling themselves "American Athiests",
masquerading as "American Atheists" under a deliberate
misspelling of "atheist" into "athiest" (so as not to be
sued, no doubt). It takes you to their Life Link Central:
picture of a fetus [actually: miscarriage] with anti-abortion
propaganda.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: BRAD JACKSON
|Sub: Doctrine
|Date: 04 Mar 96 16:16:00
EID:bd78 20648200
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson to All <=-
BJ> Greetings! I was give this track yesterday by a very good friend
BJ> out-lining the:
With friends like that, you don't need enemies!
Why don't your "friends" just brutally rape you while they're
at it?
... Pssss! Jesus is dead. Pass it on. - David Rice
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: DAVID RICE
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: the Scientology cult
|Date: 04 Mar 96 16:20:00
EID:153a 20648280
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to David Rice <=-
>>JJH> CUTS! CUTS! CUTS! ALWAYS WITH THE FUCKING CUTS!
>DR> The sanitized versons are for legal reasons.
JH> CUTS! CUTS! CUTS! ALWAYS WITH THE FUCKING CUTS!
What address would you like the complete documents shiped to?
>DR> Even a very brief three-sentence outline of OTIII being
>DR> posted on the Internet has been subject to harassing
>DR> lawsuits from the cult.
JH> Which is to say that their stategy for silencing those
JH> who would expose them has been 100 percent successful.
Fortunately, the harassment does not work so well as to
silence even as much as half the critics. While here in
America one no longer has the right to speak as one wishes,
there are still other nations that protect free speach. It is
on WWW sites at these other nations that the criticisms are
found in full.
... "God never intended Christians to be fools." -- "Kato"
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 06 Mar 96 13:30:00
EID:7efe 20666bc0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Anthony Grigor-scott <=-
-> Anthony Grigor-scott got back to Al Schroeder
>AG> Kind regards,
DC> Eat shit, mother fucker.
ROTFL!
At least it was better than the Fundy black magick curse: "I'll
pray for you!"
... "Wait a minute. Those boots. That leather. Those legs. Xena!" -- Samon
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAVID ROBINS
|Sub: Stupid Quote
|Date: 06 Mar 96 13:40:00
EID:46cf 20666d00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Robins to Martin Goldberg <=-
>>DR> Evolution is ultimately from the devil,
The devil created us via evolution? Wow. Major heresy alert!
Someone inform the Holy Office!
>>DR> for if people believe
Evolution is not subject to belief. Try again.
>>DR> that they are products of random chance
Evolution is not and was not governed by "random chance."
>>DR> they will never turn to God[sic].
Hundreds of thousands of Christians (indeed, millions of
theists in general), acknowledge the fact of evolution and
they still believe in the Christian gods (Yahweh, Jesus,
Satan, Lucifer). Ergo, you are full of shit. QED.
>MG> Sounds good to me.
DR> Are you the FAQ person-in-charge or just a passer-by? :)
DR> You can use that quote with my blessing (although, even
DR> in my NSVHO, that ain't worth much).
Why do you take pride in speaking from ignorance?
... "God never intended Christians to be fools." -- "Kato"
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROB BURCHAM
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 14:11:00
EID:a765 20667160
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to All <=-
AM> Okay, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I am up to the
RB> Would everyone PLEASE quit throwing down the GOD-DAMNED
RB> GAUNTLET?!
It's the damned-god gauntlet that's anoying.
... "Real Men Love Jesus." But wear a condom. -- Promise Keepers Motto
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KENNETH MCABEE
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 06 Mar 96 14:43:00
EID:f2d9 20667560
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to David Rice <=-
>>KM> There are no other gods.
>DR> What a stupid thing to say. Do you have any evidence
>DR> that the gods do not exist?
KM> The Bible.
The Bible mentions dozens. Why do you enjoy shooting yourself
in the foot?
>>KM> There is only One[sic] True[sic] God[sic], [....]
>DR> That's exactly what I said: you are very nearly atheist
>DR> because there are many hundreds of thousands of gods you
>DR> lack belief in. You are merely one or two gods away from
>DR> total atheism.
KM> There is but one God[sic].
Your paper idol (the Bible) says otherwise.
Now then, neo-atheist: why have you refused to answer the
question I have asked of you? Why have you, in your pride
and rebellion, dismissed so many gods, and yet hold on to
a few others (Yahweh, Satan, Jesus, Lucifer)? You lack a
belief in the hundreds of thousands of other gods---- why
believe in the others?
... "You can lead a fundy to knowledge, but you can't make it think." HP
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 16:29:00
EID:be07 206683a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting John Brawley to David Rice <=-
>>JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
>DR> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence
>DR> for gods?
JB> No, I mean the complete and total lack of evidence of the
JB> absence of God[sic] (or "gods," as you're so fond of putting
JB> it).
Oooh. Very good. There is a complete and total lack of evidence
that unicorns do NOT exist, therefore they do. Wow. Such a
cartoon world you must live in.
JB> The atheist stance is no more useful in philosophical
JB> argument than the theist one.
There is no "atheist stance."
JB> Neither has a currently testable scientific leg to stand
JB> on.
You are being sillier than usual. How the bloody hell does
the lack of belief in the gods even LEND ITSELF TO "TESTING?"
Who ever claimed a lack of belief is "testable?"
JB> But the theist stance is far more useful that the atheist
JB> stance, when arguing with _creationists_.
There is no "atheist stance."
JB> In the case of my above: leave me alone to do what little
JB> I can do with the cretinists. THEY will not even open an
JB> ear to an evolutionist whom they also know is an atheist.
JB> The atheist, to the science-class- invading cretinist, is
JB> wrong before he begins. The Theistic evolutionist at least
JB> avoids that prejudice.
You are advocating division where it has no need: theology is
not the venue of science. A person's theology (theist) or lack
of one (atheist) is not relivent to reality (science).
JB> A cretinist won't even consider an evolution without
JB> God[sic] involved.
Since the gods are orderless, colorless, measureless,
weightless, invisible, and in every way seemingly imaginary,
it is irrelevent to add or subtract them from reality (i.e.
evolution in this instance) or science (i.e. Evolutionary
Theory). In other words, what difference does it make what a
Creationists will and will not "consider," since it is the
REAL WORLD that dictates science?
JB> SOME of them will accept an evolution _with_ God[sic]
Real stupid to do, considering there appear to be no gods
blame evolution on.
JB> involved (notably the millions of Catholics, at least),
JB> and since QM appears to admit of that possibility,
It is possible that reindeer can fly. BFD. Why posit what is
not observed? What possible good could it do? Shall
astronomers start giving astrological past-life psychic
readings based opon natal charts, because astrology is far
more popular than astronomy?
JB> it's more productive to argue with them about evolution's
JB> truth that way.
THEN ARGUE WITH THE FACTS! Throwing in gods just to appease
the ignorant is not doing them any good!
JB> Lemme do my stuff with them. It's counterproductive to
JB> divert attention into that old boring "gimme some
JB> _proof_!" God[sic]-exists/God[sic]-doesn't-exist bag
JB> of pointlessness.
"Pointlessness?" Don't give me that crap. "Theistic Evolution"
as you call it is as inane as "Theistic Mathematics" and
"Theistic Celestian Mechanics." There is no way to add gods
to the equations, as they have not been observed (aka weighed
and measured). It is also therefore irrelevant to do so.
Just how =DOES= someone add gods to Evolutionary Theory?
... I'm Thomas Vail's best friend. And I know where the negatives are!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Choices
|Date: 06 Mar 96 20:22:15
EID:1d01 2066a2c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a UNREG
:: From: Masochistic Maiden To: Damien Wellman Subj: Choices ::
DW> debunkingreligious claims is the same for debunking any other lie: to
DW> spread the truth,
MM> What truth? Is there only one truth? When it comes to such things as
MM> myths and religious thoughts aren't they all teaching stories? Of
MM> course, those who have to choose a single piece from the diversity and
MM> then yell "Do it my way!" are annoying and dangerous to others. I
MM> prefer to celebrate the diversity of tradition and try to learn what
MM> concepts may be beneficial.
I have no problem with religious myths, legends, and stories as they are,
and
I have no problem when they are used as a teaching tool. It is when those
stories teach something harmful that I am personally worried. I could care
less if you go to church or not; but if you try make your religion the law
of
the land, there will be a problem. This is why I persist in debunking fundies:
A great deal of them want to replace the Bill of Rights with the Ten
Commandments. Moderate Christians who can deal with the fact that other
faiths
exist and simply believing differently does NOT automatically make one the
Evil Infidel, I have no argument with.
Of course, on HolySmoke, just arguing for the sake of arguing is a pretty
good reason, too. :)
---
ţ TLX v4.00 ţ Freedom OF religion includes freedom FROM religion.
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
---
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 07 Mar 96 08:05:00
EID:b620 206740a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE1D42
AS> Oh, I never kept my list of comics on the computer. I knew it fairly
AS> well without a list.
DC> Just how *few* comics have you collected?
I didn't say it was ORGANIZED. I just said I knew it fairly well without
a
list. I'm like the sort of person who keeps ten zillion records, no
system, but knows, by long familiarity, where everything is. Barb has
tried to organize me several times. She succeeded with the paperbacks. She
never quite succeeded with the comics. Either I or Brian would get them
out of order. I won't say I'm a slob, but let's just say the cardfile
feature on Windows is one main reason I occasionally DO use a GUI, because
it will automatically alphabetize my entries.
DC> I'll get around to it soon, as it's been o/l for some time. I
DC> know have some spare disk space and it would be nice to over-use
DC> it an justify another HD!
I'm just glad to have all the files off my old one (well, a few of the
window files, like cardfile, didn't make it, but compared to what it could
be, it could be a lot worse) on the new one.
DC> I bought a couple of "first editions", just because. Read them,
DC> but never bought any others,as the story lines were poor.
And generally, those that only buy "first editions" end up losing money
in
the long run. There are a lot of hopeful number one issues that fall by
the wayside. I find investing in quality works in the long run. There was
a run in FLASH a few years ago, called "The Return of Barry Allen" which
was magnificently written and worth much more than a number one issue of
the current Flash. There was a lot of hype about the "death of Superman"
and there were literally lines at the comic book stores to get the issue
in which he "died". As if they were going to kill off their prime
moneymaker, yeah, RIGHT. The SMART people stocked on the issues a month
or
two later, the "Reign of the Supermen" issues, which introduced a new
Superboy, (Man of) Steel, the Eradicator, and the Cyborg--all pretenders
to the the throne of Superman...and led to the destruction of Green
Lantern's home city, Coast City, which in turn led to Hal Jordan going mad
and offing the Guardians and grabbing all the power of the Guardians for
himself and there being only one new Green Lantern and Hal Jordan using
his immense power to rewrite time and...
Well, you get the idea. And again, the "Reign of the Supermen" issues
were FUN issues (the new Superboy, especially, who is a horny teenager now
based in Hawaii, with powers of tactile telekinesis which simulate many
of Superman's powers but, to his regret, not x-ray vision so he can look
through women's clothing...) and good reads. In the long run, if it's fun
for me to read, it will be worth keeping.
AS> Well, you see, Lee and Gene Colan's Captain MAr-VEll was the SECOND
AS> Captain Marvel. The first was a kid named Billy Batson who said a
DC> Sorta remember that, but I don't think I have any of the originals...
He's still around. They've more or less revamped him, as they did Superman
and Wonder Woman.
AS> Mercury. He even outsold Superman in his prime, in the forties, and
AS> Superman SUED him as a rip-off.
DC> DC comics, or the "real" Superman???
DC Comics sued Fawcett Comics. They stalled it in court for a while, and
the judge never made a ruling, because by that time superheroes were
beginning to ebb (early fifties) and they decided to do an out-of-court
settlement.
AS> Too true. Although Mephisto almost did a couple of times...
DC> The Surfer always sent him back to Hell, though. (to stay
DC> on topic!)
The Surfer was always Lee's most "religious" comic, even though there was
another comic about a god, Thor. I always wondered if he was supposed to
be Marvel's answer to DC's Spectre, revived around that time...nonhuman,
near-omnipotent, getting involved with demons and religious issues much
of
the time.
AS> Hydra, fighting Super-Soldier though...
DC> Another new one... I haven't bought any new comics in over
DC> 6 years now. :(
Again, there is quality, if you know where to look for it...Mark Waid's
FLASH, Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN, the MARVELS series (magnificently PAINTED,
not drawn) from Marvel. My son gets more Marvels than I do these days,
mostly the X-Men and their many spin-offs, and occasionally Spider-Man.
But we read each others' comics.
AS> See? I'm helping you test your inventory skills....
AS> Thanks again. No hurry, though.
DC> We'll have to really compare notes some time. Besides the comics,
DC> I've got a fairly good collection of old MAD Magazines as well
DC> as a fairly extensive set of the 8x11 B&W Conans... Few, if any,
DC> duplicates in those, though!
Roy Thomas was back working for Marvel, last I heard...I know he was doing
some issues of Thor and Dr. Strange. I miss his All-Star Squadron for DC,
a World War Two retrospective along the lines of his Invaders from Marvel.
I miss the old Thomas/Barry Smith Conans, especially, say, "Song of Red
Sonja".
Ever read Robert E. Howard in the ORIGINAL? Thomas did a faithful job of
adapting Conan for the most part. To me, though, REH's most fascinating
character (whom Thomas also put in comics for a while) is Solomon Kane,
a
moody, well built, gaunt PURITAN who would kill others in the name of God.
This was around the time of Raleigh and Queen Bess and King James. He had
a black witchdoctor friend, would trip over lost cities a la Conan, and
in
many ways was very much like a Conan in the sixteenth century...but with
a
melancholy fanaticism which would be frightening in real life but made for
a fascinating dichotomy in a fictional character. Not for him was bedding
the wench afterwards, although he resued his share of naked and near-naked
women. He fought vampires, sorcery, all the other stuff---sort of a cross
between Cromwell, an Erroll Flynn movie, and Conan.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 07 Mar 96 08:03:00
EID:f657 20674060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE25E4
JH> Hmmm... you just might know...
JH> Where do all these super-heros get the title "Captain"?
JH> Are they Merchant Marines? Officers of the local Police department?
JH> Are they in the Navy? (Captain Midnight may have been, but that's
JH> the only example I can think of who may have gotten his "commission"
JH> the way most humans do.)
JH> Captain is a rather specific title and not one that can be
JH> self-assumed.
It's really pretty simple. The first of the comic-book captains was
Captain Marvel. Captain Marvel was a product of Fawcett Comics, whose
parent company, Fawcett publishing's, first big success was something that
came out around the turn of the century called, believe it or not, Captain
Billy's Whiz-Bang. A group of anecdoctes and stories hosted by a fictional
Captain Billy, supposedly a retired seacaptain.
When making their new super-hero, they made sure to flatter the parent
company as much as possible. So hence the CAPTAIN before Marvel, whose
other identity was BILLY Batson, and both appeared in WHIZ Comics, and
Captain Marvel would appear in a magical BANG of lightning. (I guess
Captain Bang would have been open to too many risque jokes.) Now,
Captain Marvel was the most successful superhero of the Golden Age of
Comics, outselling Superman in his prime, and the first to have spin-offs,
a teenage version called Captain Marvel Jr. and a female version called
Mary Marvel. (Superman's Superboy and Supergirl came much later).
Of course there is no LOGIC in naming a big guy with Superman-like
powers derived from mythological heroes Captain Anything, but it sounded
right, and proved to be immensely successful. This was in 1940.
Success breeds imitation. When Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were looking for
a name for the patriotic hero they were envisioning, they named him
CAPTAIN America (indeed, Kirby did a few stories in the first issue of
CAPTAIN MARVEL ADVENTURES, something little known, which may be where he
got the idea.) It meant really nothing as a rank, but sounded good, and
fit with the semimilitary nature of the hero. And then Captain America
proved to be immensely popular as well, although not quite as much as
Captain Marvel. This was in late 1941, although before we entered the war.
Other ranks were tried--Major Victory, for instance...none of them quite
captured the fancy of readers the way those two Captains did. As a
consequence, most comic book heroes, if they didn't go for "Man" at the
end often had a "Captain" in front of it, whether it made sense or
not...Captain Triumph, Captain Comet, Captain Cold (a villain), etc.
About the only comic book hero I can think of where Captain was an
actual RANK was Marvel's Captain Mar-Vell, who held the equivelent of the
rank of captain in the interstellar Kree empire.
Useless Trivia'R'Us.
... I've got a mind like a... a... what's that thing called?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Blinded me with scien
|Date: 07 Mar 96 00:00:00
EID:c39a 20670000
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE34DA
AS> Hmmm. There's an interesting leap in logic. There is no
AS> INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence for an open as opposed to a closed universe
AS> in cosmology (i.e., whether it will expand together or go into a Big
AS> Crunch.). That does not rule out either.
KC> And it also leaves both equally open to debate. Without
KC> incontrovertible evidence for either, both are plausible. The debate
is
KC> conceded before ever starting.
Well, it's open for debate. If there were incontrovertible evidence, there
would be nothing to debate, would there?
AS> God---we can point to many things that indicate such (the anthropic
AS> coincidences, for instance)
KC> Why would these not point to a societal parallel, instead of pointing
KC> to the influence of a god?
No, I'm talking about something else here. Andrew produced a long list of
such "coincidences" but when challenged, doesn't seem to be able to back
it up with specifics. I can.
The universe is fine-tuned to allow the existence of intelligent
life...that is, if you alter many of the physical constants very slightly,
no intelligent life would result, and in many cases, no life at all.
I can cite you example after example, upon request. (My references
materials mainly center upon Gribbin and Rees' COSMIC COINCIDENCES, George
Greenstein's THE SYMBIOTIC UNIVERSE, and Barrow and Tipler's THE COSMIC
ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE.) Many changes would result in no higher elements
being formed in stars (and the resulting problems of trying to form
complex light forms with only hydrogen, helium, and lithium) or result in
no stars shining (and how would life form with a large power source that
is constant for billions of years?) or shining for a very limited amount
of time. That is called "the anthropic principle" and "anthropic" in this
sense means "manlike" only in the sense that intelligence comporable to
man, no matter what the lifeform or body.
Now, part of it is common sense. If we are here, we shouldn't be
surprised to find that the conditions of the universe allow us to be here.
What is startling is how much on a knife's edge we exist. That the very
laws of nature, the numerical constants that seem "built in" to the
universe, seem to fall ONLY within the very small parameters which would
allow intelligent life to exist, in some cases a small range of numbers
out of billions of possible ones. (All the above authors are scientists
of
reknown, although I will acknowledge Tipler sometimes goes a little off
the deep end. Rees, for instance, has also produced articles in SCIENCE
conerning the anthropic principles and the coincidences.) Many of the
authors above are NOT theists, but instead favor the idea of an ensemble
of universes, and we are just "the pick of the litter",
My problem with that idea is Occam's razor. It basically entails
postulating ten billion billion hypothetical universes to explain the one
we have. And yet, although there is no real way to estimate the odds
therein, I am not comfortable with the idea that we "just happened" to
have the range of constants necessary. (If the range were broad, it would
be another matter entirely). The idea that the laws HAVE to be such a
range to be logically consistent is interesting, but we can imagine
universes set up differently, such as Godel's or the Mixmaster one...why
is ours selected? And if those are the only possible values, what
difference is there between saying that and saying the universe is
designed for life? A Designer allows ONE hypothetical entity to explain
the universe we see, as opposed to the ten billion billion needed for the
other argument.
AS> but there is nothing cannot be argued about...
KC> Right! That's what makes this sort of thing so much fun. :-)
Right.
AS> evidence. So it still leaves the question OPEN...not closed.
KC> Ah. You're right. I apologise for my incorrect use of "concede".
S'right. Just wanted to make sure where we were.
KC> What instead happens is that you're left with "preponderance of
KC> evidence". Evidence becomes all that you have -- and you must amass
as
KC> much of it as possible for your point to be proven.
Exactly. Andrew did a list, but I can back up MANY of his points. Not all,
perhaps. But most. And those are ALSO evidence.
KC> Thanks for pointing out my error.
No problem. I'm sure you'll be able to point out mine.
KC> If the "evidence" you provide is easily controvertable, then that's
KC> your own fault. Something as big and awesome as a god shouldn't be so
KC> hard for you to prove.
AS> Why do I have this vision of intestinal fungi debating the existence
AS> of human beings, all the while living inside the intestines of
AS> one...and not aware of it?
KC> But people claim to be aware of a god. Fundies in particular claim to
KC> be aware of an active god.
Yes, but even among the fundies, very few claim to physically see or hear
Him. (I know of some exceptions...a local guy who claims he sees angels,
has seen God, etc. He also thinks God sent AIDS in response to his
prayers, so considering the source, I discount it.) Usually it's more
of a sensing, the "still small voice within".
AS> Which particular volumes did YOU like best?
KC> Sartre's _Being and Nothingness_, while for me a very difficult read,
KC> was very enlightening (or rather, unenlightening -- I've rarely found
KC> a philosophy that left more questions unanswered than answered. :-)
).
KC> I also especially liked his _Age of Reason_ series -- while fiction,
KC> they provided an excellent framework for his philosophic setups.
What I've read of Sartre has been all right, but I prefer Camus.
KC> Kholberg, on the other hand, I have only read in compilations and over
KC> the course of research. I cannot for the life of me remember any one
KC> particular volume. He is very prolific, though, and when I last
KC> checked, he was still alive. :) He probably produces quite a bit of
KC> material. I'd love to find some works by him and him alone.
Well, you're one up on me, because I haven't read any Kholberg at all.
AS> Are you really an existentialist?
KC> Believe it or not, I am.
In some ways it is a brave philosophy or faith...that the only meaning in
life is what we ourselves carve out of the uncaring universe. Like a giant
Roscarch test. I personally find it unsatisfying, but I suspect that is
more temperamental than logical.
AS> I wasn't aware there were any pure, Sartreian existentialists
AS> left.
KC> There's very rarely any pure, left anyways, if ever there
KC> were other than the original philosophers. Most of us that study
KC> philosophy in any manner, if only skimming, still take a gestaltic
KC> approach -- if we're intellectually honest at all.
True.
KC> For example, I agree with much of Locke and Hume's interpretations of
KC> the social contract, even though in many instances they wildly
KC> disagreed.
To say the least.
AS> (Did you know that Sartre was related to Albert Schweitzer?)
KC> Why, no! Interesting factoid!
Cousins, I believe. I was reading a biography of Schweitzer and came
across that, and later had it confirmed in a biography of Sartre. One
wonders what a conversation between the two cousins would have been like?
AS> I'm trying to picture the author of BEING AND NOTHINGNESS, TRUTH AND
AS> EXISTENCE, and THE AGE OF REASON, and his horror at being regarded as
AS> an "authority" on anything.
KC> Which is why I used "some semblance of authority". :-) Hardy seems to
KC> need books to believe something. I provided him with some authors to
KC> start him off.
Okay. I suppose I'm doing the same in the books I recommended concerning
the Anthropic Principle. But the book that comes closest to my own
philosophy is a slim volume on cosmology called BEFORE THE BEGINNING, in
which an excellent cosmologist called George Ellis (who has co-written
with Steve Hawking) examines some of the basic tenets of cosmology and
reaches some theistic conclusions. If you saw my post to Elliot recently
about the five possible reasons for the anthropic "coincidences" the ideas
were lifted---well, to be honest, stolen --from Ellis.
... If it isn't eternal, it's eternally out of date.--C.S. Lewis
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 07 Mar 96 01:06:00
EID:f623 206708c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE43EE
DW> 01 Mar 96 04:57, Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Kenneth Cavness:
KC>> Your god sure is mercurial.
KM> He sure is, praise the Lord.
DW> I *knew* this would happen when I saw your post! McAbee once again
DW> shows that he is dumber than even I gave him credit for.
It might work if he were a priest for HERMES, though...
... All the world's a stage, and Felini wrote the script.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Christianity
|Date: 07 Mar 96 01:03:00
EID:bd3f 20670860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE53F2
KC> Al Schroeder just _might_ be the person for that. ;)
AS> Any time. That's what I'm here for, right?
KC> I wish everyone were. I've fully enjoyed reading your responses to
KC> others. I think I'm going to need a bit more time to read the
KC> conference before I can start up on something you haven't covered
KC> already, though. :)
But you can add your own insights into what is being said...
KC> Unless you'd like to get the ball rolling, yourself.
Judging by the other posts...I think we BOTH have gotten the ball rolling.
... Confuse people: start making sense.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 07 Mar 96 01:04:00
EID:ab62 20670880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE65EA
JG> My religion is not of this world.
JH> You're a Martian?
See, I TOLD you my Church has a good missionary program....
(Sure hated it when the missionary had Dejah Thoris get dressed,
though...)
... When subtlety fails us, we must resort to cream pies.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: DEMONS...DEMONS
|Date: 07 Mar 96 02:03:00
EID:15e1 20671060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE776A
JB> Hey, I'm fine! Frustration is good for the brain at times. I just
JB> wish there wasn't so much of it all at once. I've almost got things
JB> straightened out. Everything is pretty well usable at the moment but
JB> there are some things that need to GO. I've got a tape backup now, so
JB> in a couple weeks (when I feel more confident about this) I'll probably
JB> screw up the whole thing royally.
If frustration is good for the brain, you're probably Einstein Reborn by
now.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: flood
|Date: 07 Mar 96 02:09:00
EID:5815 20671120
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE820A
AS> circle, the lake of ice, howabout changing the rules and sending all
AS> the nymphomaniacs there too? THEY'D keep me warm...
AS> Oh.
AS> HI, Barb! Oh, just that dull Holy Smoke echo, nothing that would
DC> Good think I gave you a conscience, isn't it. Hope you remembered
DC> to have configured your system with "Boss Mode".
Nyaaahhh, don't need to. If I do that, she's smart enough to figure it out
and put it on the screen when she's looking at her favorite male movie or
TV star. And then _I_ won't know.
We can look and lust as much as we want, as long as we don't DO anything
about it. Or talk about it as much as we want, whatever.
AS> Then shatter my disbelief. Turn water into wine, walk on water,
AS> emerge from my computer, die and come back to life.
DC> That would be far too easy. You should not depend on evidence for
DC> your belief in me. You need faith. Only in faith will you really
DC> understand my true power. Those that require such signs are weak
DC> in spirit. You aren't weak. You know you need to believe.
Besides, it would spoil my free will NOT to believe. You wouldn't want to
do that, would you?
AS> kamikaze pilots didn't claim that the Emperor reached out and plucked
DC> Still doesn't matter. They believed him god, just as you believe
DC> that Jesus was god. No evidence is required in a belief system.
AS> Welllll....although that might be true,
DC> But it is true. They died for their Emperor God. It is documented
DC> by both the Japanese as well as independent Allied Forces witnesses.
Sorry. Should have said, although that IS true.
AS> Christianity, unlike most
AS> religions or mythologies, actually DOES claim to be started by
AS> witnesses to a miracle, whose beliefs were taken as fact by some
DC> I take it that you realize that Kamikaze means "Divine Wind". It
DC> is the typhoon created by the Emperor God to sink the Chinese
DC> invasion fleet. Yes, that miracle lives on in all of the Japanese
DC> Emporer Gods.
Sure. But you can't see the Divine Wind within them, any more than we can
tell, just by your typing, that you are a God Dan.
DC> After all, no man would willing die for a false belief.
Oh, they do it all the time. They have to...they can't ALL be right.
(Despite what a local friend tried to convince me, belonging to a very
eclectic branch of Wicca). But they would not willingly die for a belief
THEY KNEW WAS FALSE. There's a difference.
AS> Thousands die in holy wars. Fanaticism by itself is not an indicator
AS> of truth. But...multiple witness is at least an indicator of truth.
DC> And, just how many witnessed the original Divine Wind? It so
DC> affected China that they never again launched an invasion against
DC> the Japanese. That's one great indicator of a Divine Truth.
And there was a storm that stopped the Spanish Armada, too. Storms are
plentiful, and although there might be the hand of God in each of them,
nobody could prove it. We have plenty of evidence of storms.
But as we are reminded, over and over in this forum, there are thousands
of years of testimony that dead men do not rise. And the first century
people knew that just as well as we do. And yet--despite all reason,
all previous experience---a dozen followers suffered flogging, risked
death, risked imprisonment---for saying they DID observe such. That they
personally saw a dead man walking around.
And interestingly, instead of being dismissed as utter loons, they
started a faith that in a few decades was making martyrs in Rome...and in
three centuries converted an Empire. I'm not saying the spread of belief
validates it. But I think it interesting that at least a sizable minority
did not dismiss it out of hand. Which might indicate that what little they
knew of the events did not cause them to immediately dismiss it as a hoax.
... "Always Ask the Next Question!" --Theodore Sturgeon
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:07:00
EID:5815 206718e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE899E
AS> The literal DISCIPLES---the Twelve, James, those five hundred Paul
AS> mentioned, Mary Magdelene...saw a physical event.
DC> And, just how many physical events have you witnessed that include
DC> bringing a truly dead man back to life? Even your own bible does
DC> not provide a single witness to the event, only an empty tomb.
No. Even if they were expecting it (and everything seems to show the
opposite) I doubt if anybody was interested in sitting in a cave sealed
with a large stone, with a rotting body nearby, to see if it would rise.
However they DID see...or claimed to have, and gave every possibility
indication of their sincerity in their beliefs (floggings, imprisonment,
death, etc.)...a man they knew well in life, and whose death they felt was
unquestionable.
IF it was a fraud, it was a good one. I dismiss the idea of a double,
even a close relative, even in jest, for if someone was impersonating
Jesus (say, James, Jesus' brother) it would never fool close friends like
Peter and John. If it were a fraud, then someone (Nicodemus? Joseph of
Arithemea?) had to buy off so many Romans (the guards at the crucifixion,
the guards at the tomb, had to pay them enough to make it worth possible
execution by Pilate if found out, etc.) that it seems a secret held by so
many people would remain a secret no longer. Also...try to picture it. If
it was a plot, Jesus played along with it, and presumably, knew about it
from the beginning or even planned it.
"Nicodemus, when I am arrested, I am going to go through crucifixion,
but if you can buy off enough of the guards I might survive..."
It's a bold plan. (Understatement of the year). Talk about cojones, if
that was REALLY Jesus' plan, He would have been willing to undergo a
probable Roman flogging AND a crucifixion which often turns out fatal, in
the hopes that He would be taken down before He was really dead. And
remember, no one was keeping Him in Jerusalem. He came there voluntarily,
and He could have sneaked away quite easily.
And with pierced feet and hands and a piercing in the side (which was
SUPPOSED TO ENSURE JESUS WAS DEAD---and remember Jesus is naked on the
cross, and could not have faked it) He walked the ten miles or so with
those two disciples to Emmaneus? With wounded feet? I don't see how they
could have faked that without Pilate getting suspicious.
And after putting through this amazing fraud, Jesus doesn't stick
around? As a resurrected Savior, He would have everything to gain from the
adulation of His disciples and the people they converted. He might have
feared the Sanhedrin doing it again, but He could have moved Christianity
to some other location than Jerusalem---say, Nazareth...and make it a new
religious center, and lived in adulation for decades until He died of old
age...
Yet He didn't. Odd.
... Fly Heisenberg Air! Dunno where we are, but we're making good time.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Giggle
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:02:00
EID:3ff1 20671840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE9308
MM> Answering nude seems to work well too.
AS> That was YOU??? (Sorry, couldn't resist...)
MM> Gosh, I didn't recognize you ! (I knew that would be hard to resist
)
Yes, that's what you said at the time, when I had the usual male reaction
to being greeted by a nude female....
... I think sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:05:00
EID:e190 206718a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CE99FC
MB> AS> One of the reasons you are one of my favorite skeptics. You fight
MB> AS> fairly and cleanly.
MB>
MB> You have a short memory. I go postal now and then.
We all do, occasionally. And my wife isn't exactly a shrinking flower
either. (BTW, I evidently missed this that one day my new BBS didn't get
any messages. I just saw Annette's response to same.) I don't want to talk
to people who are afraid to express their opinions.
ANOTHER reason I like talking to you.
... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 07 Mar 96 00:02:00
EID:be73 20670040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEA0DC
DC> Better yet:
DC> If you missed it, there's an Al Schroeder, et al Class Action
DC> Suit in the works to go after Ass-mo-diddle!
Now you see why he posted under an alias...he's probably done this sort
of
thing before. "Who was that masked moron?" "That, my son, was the Lone
Curser." As he rides into the sunset yelling, "Hi yo, Levay,
AWAYYY!!!"
Makes it harder for people to sue him.
... Insanity runs in my family; it practically gallops...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:08:00
EID:62f0 20671900
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEA7D0
SA> Ease up george. There is doubt here, and anyone who just lost a
SA> parent deserves a little benefit of doubt (even if that person acts
Seconded. And well put, Sue.
... System Halted. Press any key you like. It woln't help.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:03:00
EID:88f1 20671860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEB806
AS> YAAAAAYYYYY!!!!
DO>> Good to see you in the first person, unquoted...
AS> It WAS rather like being the Invisible Man...
DO> First you butcher Micheal, then Oosterman(n). My searchie thing
DO> missed this as a note to me. Shape up!
Sorry about that. My new BBS missed a day of posts, so I went to my old
one, and saw some of the messages, and responded to them on the new one,
but I had, of course, to type in the "to" and "subject" lines myself after
I pasted the relevant parts in.
Feel free to address me as "Al Scroder" or something.
... I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:47f5 20671800
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEC198
AS> Bonhoeffer perhaps? (Not sure of the spelling.) Priest who wrote about
AS> "cheap grace" and that one must fight for justice in this world, and
was
AS> imprisoned and eventually killed by Hitler?
AS> wow...an essay....you spent some time on this didn't you? You were
Some questions unfortunately cannot be answered in one sentence.
AS> right by the way. I was wondering if anyone would guess the actual
AS> name of the person I threw out. I personally feel that this whole
My own church did a Sunday school class about "cheap grace" and used
Bonhoeffer's book.
AS> question is one that any thinking Christian must struggle with. To
AS> just say "we must NOT resist authority, for it IS authority" is wrong.
AS> But to say "we MUST resist authority, because it is not of God" is
AS> wrong too. I truly believe that it is up to the Christian to pray,
and
AS> heed what God is saying to him and not just blindly follow a group.
AS> From what I have read the church in Germany was way too willing to just
AS> follow along with how things went. That was what Hitler wanted. By
AS> the time they figured it out, they were being imrisoned and persecuted
AS> themselves. Bowing to Hitler's wishes and kowtowing gained them noting
AS> in the end.
Yes. Unfortunately the Italian church wasn't much better. Even the
Vatican, although the Pope BEFORE the wartime one condemned fascist
aggression in no uncertain terms, the one during the war let his
anti-communist paranoia and his patriotic feelings for Italy get in the
way of what Christ would tell him to do.
AS> I have read a lot about and BY Corrie Ten Boom. She and her family
AS> never doubted that what was going on with Germany was wrong. They knew
AS> many years BEFORE that times were grave. At the same time they prayed
AS> and agonized over many things. Right up to whether it was ethical to
AS> lie about the radio they hid and the food tickets they stole. I think
AS> this is a necessary attitude. One SHOULD agonize. If we ever reach
AS> the point where we KNOW that we are right without consulting our
AS> conciounce and our God we are WRONG.
Yes. Distrust the easy answers. We see it in the political sphere as well
as the religious.
... Operator, trace this call and tell me where I am.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: LEGEND
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:02:00
EID:b51c 20671840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CECDFA
AS> Deep fried watermelon? Sounds like something that would be a Southern
AS> dish, if anywhere...
KC> Kids, do _not_ try this at home.
KC> Take a deep fryer. Add a copious amount of your favourite brand of
KC> cooking oil.
KC> Now, take a can of chilled water and pour it directly onto the oil.
KC> Enjoy!
Blows up in your face, eh?
... Common sense isn't really all that common.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 07 Mar 96 03:04:00
EID:9561 20671880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CED53E
AS> Deep fried watermelon? Sounds like something that would be a Southern
AS> dish, if anywhere...
DC> To my knowledge, it doesn't exist outside of my imagination! I
DC> made that up one day trying to see how well someone knew how to
DC> cook. Turns out she didn't!
VERY sneaky.
DC> Now, deep fried mashed potatoes is real. Very tastey, I might add.
DC> Had that up in Montreal. Took me 2 months to figure out how to
DC> make them right.
Deep fried mashed potatoes? But...how...hmmm. Topping fried like baked
alaska, maybe?
DC> Try it some time. When you get upset with the results, I'll
DC> provide you with the secret that only God Dan and a Chef in
DC> Montreal have!
You want me to beg? Hey, I'm not proud. HOW???
... He who laughs, lasts.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:9561 20672040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEDDEA
AS> True. And I think part of it was Jewish upbringing...that it was hard
AS> for them to conceive of a self-Resurrection.
DC> Why would at least John not be able to conceive of it, as he was
DC> supposedly a desciple and witness?
AS> I don't believe (or at least I don't recall one way or the other, or
AS> through glancing through the latter chapters of John's Gospel) that
AS> John comments one way or the other, as to whether Jesus raised Himself
AS> or whether God raised Him.
DC> Yet, you just claimed that a "witness" could not conceive of that,
DC> due to his religious upbringing...
Well, really, Dan, to the disciples it makes no practical difference
whether Jesus raised Himself or whether God did it for Him. Either way was
a mark of Divine power. The era for debating how many angels could dance
on a head of a pin were some nine hundred years away. They had more
practical things to worry about. I said it would be "hard" for them to
consider a self-Resurrection, though not impossible.
AS> But in either case...Jews are brought up
AS> (at least in the first century) that certain things can ONLY be done
AS> by God, such as forgiving sins.
DC> And, just why did god lie to them and not tell them the truth about
DC> who he was and what he could do? Why did he keep "His Choosen
DC> People" in the dark?
Well, if Jesus WAS God, that was not a lie. (Oh, we can forgive
trespasses, but if there is something spiritually to sin, only God could
forgive such.) Certainly God did not tell the Jews everything. He
doubtless has not told the Christians everything. I am not arrogant enough
to think that God has no surprises left for us. If Jesus returned as an
AIDS victim, I think it would suit His sense of irony and wouldn't
surprise me.
AS> implications of what Jesus said sunk through. I would be the first to
AS> admit that the Trinity was both a political compromise and a way to
AS> make sense of some of Jesus' words ("who sees me, sees the Father",
AS> for instance.)
DC> And, Al, that is what it is, nothing more, nothing less. You
DC> really have learned something here, haven't you!
But look at the second part of the statement--to make sense of Jesus'
words. Certain phrases, if reported correctly, indicate that Jesus thought
Himself both equal and identified with God.
DC> Then again, you attempt to answer the following querry that
DC> was directed at Mcabee...
DC> Jesus praying?" After all, he prays to god far more than once
DC> in the gospels.
AS> Couple of answers for that one. When God was incarnated as Jesus, in
AS> my view, it is clear that He was not omniscient
DC> Then, Al, he could not be god. That precludes what you view a
DC> god to be and makes any statement from your "human god" to be
DC> suspect, as he did not have all of his godly faculties in full
DC> operation.
Why? There have been plenty of non-omniscient gods. Certainly Appollo,
Pan, and Thor were constantly surprised. I don't believe Jesus was
omnipresent either AS JESUS, although I think God is.
AS> Father") totally, although He did know many things denied in us. You
AS> cannot fit an infinite amount of knowledge into one human skull, and
DC> An omnipotent god can do anything, can't he? Or, can he?
I think we've already covered the "logical possibility" thing. Let me put
it this way; why should He? Why should He set aside His laws without a
good reason? If Jesus could get by with just enough knowledge to
accomplish His mission, does God really need to bend the laws He created
any more?
AS> there was no need for Jesus to know the depth of the solid-oxygen
AS> snowfall on Pluto to carry out His earthly mission. The Scriptures
DC> No one at the time questioned him on that point. Yet, you not only
DC> have the knowledge of the snowfall, you have the knowledge of Pluto.
DC> Can it be that you know more than your god?
No; and I'm sure there was much Jesus knew that I and no human knew. But
the fact that I know of Pluto and the snowfall is no more remarkable than
that Jesus would know more about first century carpentry than I do.
AS> speak of the Son not wanting to hold equality with God but descending
AS> into the form of man...a step down, as it were. Nor is there any
DC> That's strange... Many xians look a man as a step up. Perhaps
DC> we should look at it all from the basis of a neutral source:
DC> Nature.
An amoeba is as much a leaf on the Tree of life as I am. But I still would
consider it a demotion to be one, even for an hour. (Although it might be
a fascinating hour.)
AS> Later, of course, He went back into the Godhood, in my view...as my
AS> fictional nanorobot might pour into my brain all its experiences.
DC> Yet, Al, as a "mere mortal", you know of Pluto. Think about it...
Well, the microbot might know a lot about unicellular life that wouldn't
be apparant to me, too. I'm not saying GOD didn't know of Pluto or the
snowfall on Pluto. I just doubt that Jesus did, and I can show in
Scripture that there were some things that Jesus did not know ("But these
things no man knows, no not the angels in Heaven, but the Father.")
... Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Many Gods and Godesses
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:08:00
EID:e05f 20672100
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEE47A
AS> Well, we'll have to Sif through the problems, and not let it get to
AS> us. I have plenty of hair, but I hear worry will make you Balder.
DC> Well, just once more into the Freya, an Wo-dins to you...
DC> After all, it's just actors, we're Hamdahls for sure.
DC> Catch a rainbow and make a bridge out of it. Then come up with the
DC> cheer for its sucess: "I holler, you holler, we all Vahalla for
DC> ice cream!"
Oh, you're just Bragi-ing. Iduna know why people have to do that. Why do
they aSigyn more importance to themselves than they have? Hel of a way to
live.
... Necromancers put the FUN back in funerals!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Mark staal the lump
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:00:00
EID:1ac3 20672000
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEEDEE
DC> Get together with Al Schroeder. If you can enlist a few more, you
DC> may have grounds for a class action suit against said Ass-more-diddly.
AS> Or his parents. How much you want to bet he's living off them?
AS> Didn't he say he was about eighteen? (Physical age. Mental age a
AS> little younger, about fifteen, I think.)
SA> Methinks you are being overly generous here, Al. ;)
Hey, I didn't say a BRIGHT fifteen-year-old....
... No sense in being pessimistic--- it won't work anyway.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Mark staal the lump
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:03:00
EID:e01b 20672060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEF546
AS> Or his parents. How much you want to bet he's living off them? Didn't
AS> he say he was about eighteen? (Physical age. Mental age a little
AS> younger, about fifteen, I think.)
DC> You over estimate the mental age of the Curse-Giver by at least
DC> 15 years!
I must admit I have rarely seen a youth with such a gift for making
himself a total laughingstock....
... given sufficient time, any self-serving fool will debunk itself.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:1029 20672040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CEFBB8
AS> *Sigh* I love this state in many ways, but our
AS> politicians...either we have really good ones, like Lamaar
AS> Alexander or Al Gore (both sr. or jr.) or our last governor---or
RS> I had the pleasure of seeing Al Gore Sr. speak at the university here
RS> a couple of weeks ago. It was a conference held in honor of one of
our
RS> great politicians: Wayne Morse.
Yes, he's still active, intelligent and opinionated, just when he had the
cojones to be a dove Democrat during the Vietnam War, and tell LBJ to his
face how STUPID it was. And bear in mind he was a senator from a southern
state in the sixties, yet kept on getting reelected...
I mentioned to others that my sister Anne did some babysitting for Al
Gore JR. when he was a reporter here in Nashville.
... Politics -from: poly=many + tics=blood sucking parasites
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 07 Mar 96 04:08:00
EID:5938 20672100
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF05D6
JB> good, so I'll not try it again. I think George is savvy enough to see
a
JB> good investment for what it is, regardless of the opinions held by the
JB> principals.
Good. I hope so. It would be nice to have a business partner you know and
respect.
JB> I didn't see the message directly from Mark, but I did see a quote of
JB> it and sent my condolences. This is not a subject to try to 'score
JB> points' from. It is never easy to have someone you love die. Not for
JB> anyone. I'm sorry for their pain and hope that they won't stint on the
JB> grieving process. It isn't something you can just shut off and not pay
JB> a price for.
Too true. In my own case, although there are occasional "Boy, I wish I
could call Pop"...especially after the recent fire...in a way I feel
almost guilty that I don't grieve more. But he died the gentlest of deaths
a year ago (in his sleep) and there was a sense of completion and
fulfillment.
... Too many people confuse free speech with loose talk.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 07 Mar 96 00:07:00
EID:5938 206700e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF0C48
JB> From what I saw, that bill read to post them in 'schools, government
JB> offices and PLACES OF WORSHIP'. I wonder how many howls that will
JB> bring...the government telling churches what they have to post.
Or for that matter, synogogues, mosques, temples of Ganesha (I drive by
a
gorgeous one every day to work...should be on the bank of the Ganges or
something). Easily struck down under "freedom of religion."
I THINK the idea was the Bob Dole-ish idea that morality and ethics are
declining in the younger generation, and they think the Ten Commandments
are a good model. (I wonder what would have happened if they had proposed
using the Code of Hammuribi instead?) Now, if they had pared it down
and rephrased it...don't steal, don't murder, don't lie, don't swear
against anybody's gods, respect your parents...maybe. But "thou shalt have
no gods before me?" That's going to be ruled unconstitutional so fast by
a
court it isn't funny.
But it's an election year. If they thought there was a chance in the
world of the bill STICKING, they would think twice. But this way they get
to make political points with church goers ("See, I voted for this moronic
bill which uses something out of the Bible inappropriately and the mean
old court struck it down")--they get all the glory and none of the
consequences.
JB> I saw a good one today while coming home from visiting a friend.
JB> 'Sacred Heart FEDERAL Credit Union'.
Although isn't there a CITY called Sacred Heart? And I worked in a
bank back when I was young for a little while, and unless I'm
misremembering, the "federal" means that their funds are covered by the
FDIC. (Remind me to tell you about the ten thousand dollars lost in the
Bourdeaux landfill here in Nashville sometime.)
... I've had a bad day,I feel like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 07 Mar 96 05:07:00
EID:a630 206728e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF1314
AS> You may be interested in knowing there is now a bill pending in the
AS> Tennessee state senate making it against the law to teach evolution
AS> as fact, not theory. After making idiots of ourselves during the
AS> Scopes trial, they're trying it again...
DC> And, from what you are saying, they are trying to make a monkey
DC> out of you... (very wry G)
Ahhh, it'll be struck down by the courts. They're just having their
political cake and eating it to...voting for something that will appeal
to
creationists yet knowing there's not a chance that anybody convicted under
the law will serve a day. The ACLU will have the law repealed in six
months, tops.
AS> against the law to teach the heliocentric theory as anything but a
AS> theory, in hopes of letting people see how ridiculous this is. And
DC> Is the general populace educated enough to know the truth? (serious
DC> querry here)
Well, concerning the heliocentric theory, I doubt there's anyone in
Tennessee, even in the smallest hamlets, except for the same indidence of
Flat Earthers as other states and countries, who doesn't know the
heliocentric facts. Several science teachers have said they will
cheerfully break the law in this case and let the state eventually pay the
court costs after it is overturned.
Creationism might be a different matter. I would say the majority
believe in Evolution. (We certainly didn't ban things like JURASSIC PARK,
our lines were as long here for Jurassic Park as anywhere else.) But I
would ALSO say the majority take the Adam and Eve story literally. Some
believe one thing on Sunday, the rest on other days of the week. Memphis,
Nashville, and Knoxville, I would say, have the same sophistication as
people of most medium-sized cities, although New York it ain't. However,
some of the smaller towns and hamlets, especially in the East, where the
Smoky Mountains start cutting off towns, can be pretty Deliverance-like.
It is towns like that which brings our education level here in Tennessee
pretty far down there, although the bigger cities are quite good, and
Nashville's is very good, what with Vanderbilt, Belmont, David Lipscomb
and other universities and colleges here in the same town. (We make jokes
about Vanderbilt football, who rarely win..."best SAT scores in the
Southwestern Conference").
... Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 07 Mar 96 05:05:00
EID:b0ec 206728a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF1B16
SA> Everybody understands Mickey Mouse. Few understand Herman Hesse. Only
SA> a hand full understood Albert Einstein. And nobody understood Emperor
SA> Norton.
SA> -Slogan of NORTON CABAL - S.F.
Ah, but he was the only Emperor in history who taxed nobody, waged no
wars, executed nobody in his name. As the judge who ruled whether he was
insane or not said, "Would that all emperors were that insane." (If I'm
remembering right.)
Yeah, I know you were just yanking George Mooth's chain, but Emperor
Norton, the only Emperor of the United States, was such a fascinating
individual I couldn't resist commenting.
... You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you freak.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Sharks
|Date: 07 Mar 96 05:00:00
EID:c9c0 20672800
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF239A
AS> What sort of experiences did you have? And with what denomination, if
AS> I might ask?
KC> This is a _very_ long story. I tend towards succinctness, so I'll try
KC> to keep it somewhat short (plus, I'd like to get onto #holysmoke on
KC> irc. ;) )
KC> To answer your second question first: I grew up in the Pentecostal
KC> Church (United Pentecostal Church, Inc) in a couple of cities: a small
KC> town in Texas called Brady, and in a suburb in the Dallas / Fort Worth
KC> metropolitan area, called Euless (pronounced "Useless").
KC> My mother, after divorcing my father (I was about 4), turned in
KC> desparation for a stable group of people. Well, stable in the sense
KC> that they'd always be there for her. She chose, for various reasons
KC> known only to her, to join the Pentecostal church.
KC> Some other time, I'll post some of the more rabid things that the
KC> Pentecostal churches do. The things that I most remember, though, are
KC> the seminars they held to show the evil and satanic content of Rock
KC> (the way they set it up gave me nightmares for weeks, and I grew up
KC> thinking that rock was indeed satanic. It took me a lot of friends
KC> after I stopped being a Pentecostal to show to me that Rock, while some
KC> groups did indeed carry Satanic messages, does not imply Satanism in
KC> any manner). I was utterly deprived of my favourite pasttime (reading),
KC> because so many books were considered evil. I have had to read in 5
KC> years (I'm 21 now) what most people were able to read from their
KC> junior high years.
KC> The Church allowed my mother to believe that her psychological
KC> problems could be cured by Christ (they weren't, and I was the brunt
of
KC> most of her anger and hostility toward my father); the Church caused
my
KC> mother to tithe first to it, and give generous offerings, before
KC> providing for us. It gave her incentive and support in her crusades
KC> against my family, and caused her to ostracise (sp?) me from most of
my
KC> non-Pentecostal family.
KC> In short: I was deprived of a social base, I was kept wilfully
KC> ignorant, I was made to belive my father, and most of my family, were
KC> evil and were going to hell, I was enlisted in a crusade against my
KC> father because my mother thought that he was bisexual/gay and enlisted
KC> the Church's fight against him.
KC> I was made to believe that _I_ was satanic and evil because I
KC> couldn't, no matter how hard I tried, speak in tongues or feel a
KC> presence of god. I was simply "not praying hard enough" or "not giving
KC> myself to god." Because I am gay, I was made to feel totally guilty.
I
KC> tried for most of my young life to change into a straight person. I
had
KC> to sit in a church and raise my hands to a god I could not feel, clap
KC> my hands in a show of utter hypocrisy to a music that did not inspire,
KC> and listen to sermons that I could not follow (because they would start
KC> out with a subject and quickly move to fire-and-brimstone tactics,
KC> trying to bring the crowd to mass hysteria).
KC> It caused me to spend much of my young life trying to convert others
KC> to a faith I now feel is actually as close to "evil" as I can belive
in
KC> the term. It almost caused me to suspend my thought processes, and
KC> ignore logic and reason, because what I was doing was not what seemed
KC> right.
KC> There's so much more to this than a simple message could describe, but
KC> suffice to say that the Pentecostal church, on an emotional, social,
KC> physical, and mental level, deprived me of much in my formative years.
KC> The anger I felt after leaving the church caused me to have to go into
KC> psychotherapy to try to control myself. I actually felt violent toward
KC> any Pentecostal I saw -- not that I would have ever acted on that
KC> violence, but it was tearing me up inside.
Your story reminds me of a local friend of mine. He used to be very
fundamentalist, and a musician---he was in a warmup group for Amy Grant
and Michael W. Smith, that crowd...but gay. And it was tearing him up that
he felt it was a sin and yet was drawn to it. One night, he spoke to his
minister about many things, and asked him, (he says the minister didn't
know he was gay) "Do you think God would prefer a man dead...or gay?"
The minister answered without reservation, "Gay."
He spent a long night that night, struggling with suicide, and then came
to the healthy conclusion that a dead man is of no use to anyone, even
God. He left the church, tried some other stuff, and eventually drifted
into Wicca and is quite happy with it. Considering what he endured, who
can blame him?
But I would rather be in my friend's shoes on the real Judgement Day
than that minister's.
KC> _Please_, people, don't take this as an opportunity to witness to me.
KC> I've really, really, heard just about all there is to hear in the 6
KC> years I have spent codifying exactly what it is about Christianity
KC> that makes me not want to be a part of it. I did indeed try other, less
KC> fringe denominations, as well as a private persuit of the Bible that
KC> caused me to read it through totally four times, and to go through
KC> countless hours of annotation and reference checking to find out that
KC> I couldn't stomach much of what the bible states.
Understandable, especially given your earlier experiences. Although I
remember W.H. Auden, who was gay and yet felt convinced of the Christian
faith.
KC> I have since discovered that I don't have to hate Christianity, or
KC> even Christians. It took _many_ years of allowing my anger to simmer
KC> down to believe this. I do not actively seek out Christians in order
to
KC> debunk them, and nor do I wish to make all people atheists. I have,
KC> however, found that of all the things that I most abhor in society,
it
KC> is zealotry -- and I will actively seek that out and attempt to debunk
KC> and ridicule it whenever I can.
Beware the fanatic, theist or nontheist.
KC> On the other hand, I love a good debate, and find it most refreshing
KC> when I can find a reasonable Christian (such as you) who is willing
to
KC> sit down and calmly lay out his points, which I can refute, and then
KC> allow me to lay out my points, which I can refute.
It makes for more intellectual stimulation for me. Flaming can be
carthartic, but defending one's own stance and looking for the
inconsistencies in another's is more fun, and in a way good mental
exercise.
KC> I know this has been disjointed, but I really can't do much more than
KC> this...my "life story" revolves around my experiences with
KC> Christianity and Paganism, and it would take an incredible amount of
KC> time to go into detail as to it. If you have any further questions,
I'd
KC> be happy to go into detail on them, but this should serve as starting
KC> material. :)
Yes indeed. It gives me an idea of what you are like and what you have
experienced. I noticed the "Paganism", though. Did you turn to Paganism
for a time, or like my friend, are you still in one of the faiths we clump
under pagan,like Wicca, Druid, etc.?
... "Always Ask the Next Question!" --Theodore Sturgeon
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:04:00
EID:7ee1 20674880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF2CD2
AS> Hoo boy. I think it's five tablespoons of trisodium phosphate,
AS> mixed with your regular detergent, and a cup of concentrated Lysol.
DC> Thanks, saved it to file and will pass it on... hopefully when
DC> not really necessary!
Really. We probably conquered the Lysol concession locally with all the
stuff we had to wash.
AS> Asmodeus? I might believe he is an invisible horse's ass...
DC> As he looks like he's taken a powder, you may be right.
He WAS the best source of humor we've had here in some time, though.
AS> original HALLOWEEN, or THE HAUNTING OF HILL HOUSE.
DC> For a good older diversion into fright, try the _Haunting_
DC> Haven't seen it scine I was about 14, and it was, at least at
DC> the time, rather scary. Then again, the _Exorcist_ was when
DC> I first saw it, and it was mild the second time around...
No, your instincts are good. THE HAUNTING OF HILL HOUSE was the book, by
Shirley Jackson, which was made into the movie, THE HAUNTING. I saw it
when I was ten or so, and never forgot it. The ghost banging the walls and
doors like he was going to batter them down. To my mind it held up much
better than the EXORCIST, although I will admit my nine-year-old and wife
watched it and if anything were bored. Philistines. The authentic
shudder. And practically ANY version of TURN OF THE SCREW is good, being
based on what I think is the best ghost story in the English language. (I
also like the ghost stories of M.R. James.)
As is my wont, even when I was thinking of the movie, I associated it
with the book, and accidentally used the book's title.
... I'm not dead, I'm metabolically challenged.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: the true nature of christ
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:05:00
EID:1cc1 206748a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF34DE
RS> After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that most if not
RS> all Christians are self-centered son of a bitches. It would seem to
me
RS> that they do not worship their god for the sake and `glory' of the
RS> action, but rather they're attempting to save their own asses from
RS> eternal hellfire and such.
There isn't such a motive as gratitude for the beautiful world we are
given, the glories of existence, the wonder of the universe revealed to
us
in science, for the chance to love and to strive and to appreciate beauty?
I am grateful to God for allowing me to walk in the Rockies when I was
thirteen, for the beautiful and ever-baffling woman I married, for the
delight my kids give me, for the many works of man-made beauty I am
exposed to which wouldn't exist unless God created the men to begin
with...
Certainly there is SOMETHING in what you say. Some few do come to church
to keep their souls out of Hell. But I see many more coming for reasons
of
joy, rather than fear. Who are there because they WANT to be there.
Perhaps that is what the Scriptures meant by saying, "The fear of the Lord
is the BEGINNING of wisdom." Not the end.
RS> It's a pity that I have had to expose them like this. The truth
RS> always hurts.
Must be why I don't feel hurt at all.
... I see your foot and your mouth have been introduced.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:08:00
EID:0776 20674900
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF3A06
AS> Although too often philosophy can be a quagmire of semantics. Science
AS> earns one's respect by being one of the few branches of philosophy
AS> that show RESULTS, but one must never forget there are some
AS> philosophical assumptions underlying it.
AM> True enough. Some philosophy is pure hogwash.
So is some science. Luckily, science has a self-correcting faculty, peer
review and experimental verification and duplication, that steers it back
to the right path. The larger philosophy from which it sprang has no such.
... I let my mind wander once. It never came back.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: URL!
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:09:00
EID:f42d 20674920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF406E
KC> Most people born into the churches quickly become disillusioned by
the
KC> hypocrisy.
AS> (Amused smile.) Ever BEEN in a church?
KC> Ummm...like, uhhhh...yeah. I grew up in them. ;)
So I see from the short bio you wrote.
AS> Especially one that has been there a few years? You will often find
AS> first-generation, second-generation, third-generation families
AS> there.
KC> I see where you got confused (where my writing was too vague for you
KC> to be able to extrapolate my point). I meant to say those in
KC> fundamentalist churches.
See, that's where I made MY mistake. So many people here will call Jesse,
Michael, Dave, Lynda or myself "fundies" because we believe there is some
truth in the Bible, that I thought you were using in that way, as a
synonym of "Christian."
AS> I can only conclude that what few churches you have
AS> attended, have been relatively new. (Unless you are using
AS> "fundies" in a narrower sense than most of Holy Smoke...most
AS> here use it in the sense of "Christians", period.
KC> Ummm...no. That's not the way I meant it at all. I've always meant for
KC> "fundie" to mean "fundamentalist", and I'm sure you'll agree that in
KC> actuality very few churches are fundamentalist. (even including the
KC> southern baptists.)
Yes. Especially the Pentecostal churches you attended when younger. I have
attended some charismatic churches. I myself currently attend a Church of
Christ (Campbellites) which many would call fundamentalist, although I
would merely say religiously conservative in some areas. (The church I
grew up in, the Episcopalian church, was---at least in the churches I went
to, Lynda has had much better experiences--in some ways like the Reverend
in Doonesbury, who has no time for services because it conflicts with the
self-esteem and yoga workshops.)
KC> I might be using it in an even more narrow sense, that being
KC> "evangelical". I generally use the moniker "fundie" to refer to
KC> "evangelical" anyways.
Yes. I tend to call them "charistmatics" but I understand you now. It is
such a change to see someone use the word "fundamentalist" on Holy Smoke
in the way _I_ would use it that I misjudged.
AS> Most atheists here argue the exact opposite...that most theists
AS> are that, not out of any honest conviction, but because they
AS> learned it as a child and never questioned what they learned.
KC> There's a very large difference between a "Fundamentalist" and a
KC> theist. A fundamentalist is a very small branch of theism.
Agreed. As I said I attended a charismatic church in the late sixties or
so...when the "Jesus freak" reaction to the hippie movement was starting
to grow. Nothing like I had ever seen before, people talking in tongues,
ex-bikers wanting to baptize you, people getting up and trying to
prophesy. I attended for a while. I don't think that church or meeting
place lasted more than a year or two. I'm curious, though. You don't think
there are many second-generation Pentecostals, then?
... If it's not eternal, it's eternally out of date.--C.S. Lewis
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:02:00
EID:dcd9 20674840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF48AC
AS> I agree completely, being one of the few of my generation who can
AS> REMEMBER the sixties. (I don't think my brother's ever come out of
AS> it.)
DW> Hell, my sister wasn't even *born* until 1971, and she still hasn't
DW> come out of the sixties.
It's depressing. Ads use old Beatle songs to hawk their wares, thanks to
Jackson's selling of the rights. John Lennon is probably royally P.O.ed,
wherever he is.
DW> If there's one thing I dislike more than an *old* hippy, it's a new
DW> one. :)
I remember ONE person saying "right on!" seriously. Anybody else who did
always giggled afterwards.
... "Bones! It's Jerry Garcia!" "He's dead, Jim...and grateful."
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:08:00
EID:700b 20674900
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF51C6
AS> I agree completely, being one of the few of my generation who can
AS> REMEMBER the sixties.
DC> You where either too young, too old, or a nerd!
I was born in 1953, so I was a shade too young for the good stuff. And
yeah, probably too much the nerd. (I remember I had to explain to each of
my brother's friends what the ending to the movie 2001 meant, having read
the book...that it wasn't there just to have a good acid trip with.)
DC> And, yes, I saw the Who 2 times, though I only admit to being at
DC> the first concert, as the second one stunk...
"Tommy can you hear me?..."
"Tbat deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball..."
The Who, Emerson Lake and Palmer, the Moody Blues...etched in nostalgia
with me forever.
My brother had every record album in the world, I had every book in the
world. (Yes, I'm exaggerating, but that was our respective positions.) He
would come up to my room to get something to read, and I'd go down to his
stereo system for something to listen to. It made a good reciprochal
arrangement.
... "But we decide which is right...and which is an illusion." Knights on
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: WHO CARES?
|Date: 07 Mar 96 00:01:00
EID:00a3 20670020
MSGID: 1:116/19 04CF5842
AS> Well, I am not his keeper. But I made the best offer I could. I
DC> And he chose to ignore you gracious offer!
You can lead a man to water, but you can't make him honest. Or more
honest. Or someting.
AS> True. And I give him that. If we only include perfect Christians as
AS> Christians, then nobody comes to Church.
DC> Pehaps that's a plus on his side!
I don't know...it may be his blind spot. He may be quite decent otherwise.
AS> Including me. Maybe ESPECIALLY me.
DC> Which is the problem with xianity. It requires perfection which
DC> is not attainable, even by its god. Sisyphus would feel like
DC> he had an easy task compared to that which xianity requires.
No, in a way it's liberating. NOBODY can measure up to Jesus' standards,
and it is clearly told to us if we say we are without sin, the truth is
not in us. So it doesn't become a matter of brownie points, or how high
you rate on the Heaven-o-meter. (And my feelings about hell--what can we
do to deserve eternal punishment---has a flip side. What can we do to earn
eternal joy? No matter if I discovered a cure for cancer, AIDS and war,
each of those conditions are finite. Is there anything I could do to EARN
Heaven? No. It comes as a gift...for the asking.) It comes as a gift. It
is there for the asking. And it is not forced on anyone.
That's one reason I don't fall into the "not, true, Christian" thing.
EVERY Christian in some way betrays his Christian principles. It's a
given, from monsters like Torquemada to lechers like Swaggarts to relative
saints like Mother Teresa, Thomas More, and Charles Williams.
"'I am a man,' said Father Brown gravely, 'and thus have all devils in
my heart,'" G.K. Chesterton wrote in the short story, "The Hammer of God."
It comes close to my feelings. Christianity is an interesting mixture of
cynicism and hope. Yes, Man is going to fail. Yes, Man, left to his own
devices, will muddle things up. And God understands that, and forgives
that...and all we have to do...ALL we have do do...is ask for His
forgiveness for it.
AS> I think it is because computers and software are so relatively new.
DC> Computers were first used when a sentient brain first started
DC> to think. The software, though rather crude, was self-replicating
DC> and intuitive. Guess you could call it the original model for
DC> AI. <-- That's an "i" not "a", Al! Don't want you to get a
DC> swelled head! ....
Moi? I think Hector would agree that my intelligence IS artificial.
AS> The ethical standards seem more elastic.
DC> They have to be. After all, the environment does change. The
DC> hard part is to keep adapting to it. What worked 2,000 ya has
DC> little bearing on the present. The future will only be there
DC> for this species if it can survive the present.
Yes. But adapting still implies you have a standard to adapt TO. We are
trying to figure out how the prohibition against stealing applies to
software, not dispensing with it altogether. "That which is not eternal
is
eternally out of date," C.S. Lewis once wrote.
DC> Thing is that he requested me to pay for it. Yet, at the same
DC> time, he condemns me to hell because I don't follow his beliefs.
DC> As per another post, he should be grateful that I'm not a vengeful
DC> god. If I was, I'd make him live in eternity with himself as
DC> his only company. }:-)
Eternal solitary confinement.
Now THAT'S Hellish.
... I am a man, and therefore have all devils in my heart.-Father Brown.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US Censorship Law
|Date: 08 Mar 96 07:18:14
EID:9229 20683a40
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1403281c
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Matthew Gaylor (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Mar 07 '96, 15:50
Apparently-to: Terry.Liberty-Parker@804.ima.infomail.com
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To: libernet@dartmouth.edu
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Subject: Jim Warren Quits BoardWatch Magazine and Why
By Reid Kanaley, The Philadelphia Inquirer
Knight-Ridder/Tribune Business News
Mar. 7--The new federal ban on Internet "indecency" isn't even being
enforced by the government, but that hardly matters to journalist Jim Warren.
He insists that he has already been censored because of it.
And he's quitting.
"I am right now writing my final column (for BoardWatch, a print and
online magazine), because I'm resigning," Warren, 60, of San Francisco,
said
this week.
An intentionally crude reference to the imagined sexual practices of a
U.S. senator was excised from Warren's latest column denouncing the indecency
ban.
Warren's editor, David Hakala, said yesterday that he cut the offending
paragraph only out of concern for readers' sensibilities. But according
to
e-mail Hakala sent to Warren last month -- which is now part of a federal
lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the indecency ban -- the slur
was excised because it could "deliberately implicate" the publisher in a
felony.
"The idea that a print publisher will unilaterally and immediately
censor print content for fear of committing a felony in their online content
is just unacceptable," Warren said.
The ban on any indecent material that could be accessed by minors on
computer networks, with penalties up to $250,000 and two years in jail,
is
contained in the Communications Decency Act, or CDA, part of the sweeping
new
telecommunications reform law.
According to both critics and supporters, the measure is already having
some effect online. The Justice Department has said it would not begin
prosecutions while the court challenges are pending, but it refused to say
that it would not attempt to hold individuals liable at a later date for
alleged online "indecencies" dating from Feb. 8, the day the
Telecommunications Reform Act was signed by President Clinton.
So critics, such as Warren, say the law has effectively begun to chill
free speech.
Supporters say it is merely beginning to force a virtual soap bar to the
lips of the online world.
"They shouldn't be using dirty words anyway, not because of the law, but
because they shouldn't use dirty words where kids can overhear," said Bruce
Taylor, president of the anti-porn National Law Center for Children and
Families, which lobbied vigorously for the CDA.
Playboy still offers fully nude pictures of its centerfolds on the World
Wide Web, but Penthouse and Hustler magazines have cut back drastically
on
the skin in free areas of their online versions.
"We are expending a great deal of money and person hours to comply" with
new laws, Penthouse tells its Web site visitors, "and even more to see that
these are overturned as rapidly as possible."
Instead, the magazines heavily promote paid subscriptions to
more-graphic online offerings.
"Nobody's quite sure what indecency means," said Nina Guccione, vice
president of New Media Operations at Penthouse. And without that definition,
she said, "Penthouse is a sitting duck out there."
Some, but by no means all, of the less-commercial and downright amateur
online erotica is also being toned down.
For example, though many pictures and descriptions of bestiality remain
available on the Web and in Usenet newsgroups, a Web page that is described
in the Yahoo search service as "information related to interspecies
sexuality, including bestiality, zoophilia, totemism and animal roleplay"
links surfers to the following notice:
"Page removed due to Internet censorship...in order to comply with the
Communications Decency Act."
"At least some of the hardcore obscenity stuff is off," a pleased Taylor
said this week. "If they're taking stuff off, they shouldn't have had it
up
in the beginning."
Others are pointedly not changing their online material.
The San Francisco Bay Guardian, an alternative weekly newspaper,
continues to put articles with titles like "Pissed" and "G-Spot," as well
as
a guide to nude beaches and samples from selected books of erotica on its
Web
site.
"It's a brave act on their part," said James Wheaton, an Oakland,
Calif., attorney who represents the newspaper through its membership in
the
Association of Publishers, Editors and Writers. The association is a
plaintiff in the lawsuit against the CDA that will be heard before a
three-judge panel in U.S. District Court in Philadelphia starting March
21.
Warren is another of Wheaton's clients, and his censorship claim was
submitted to the court in an affidavit Friday. Lawyers in the case said
they
expected to file additional claims of chilled speech on behalf of other
plaintiffs.
"If I had any fear in the long run, I would realize that my conduct
could be the subject of a prosecution," said Jim Crawford, a lawyer in
Philadelphia who said he was preparing a brief on behalf of several
medical-advice and arts groups who believe they will be hurt by the CDA.
Brock Meeks, a Washington journalist whose online newsletter, Cyberwire
Dispatch, is frequently peppered with profanity, said he had changed his
ways.
"It's not something I do purposely to say (expletive) to the government.
It's the way I've always written," he said.
"But, as an example, that last line could probably get me arrested under
this bill."
-----
ON THE INTERNET:
Visit Philadelphia Online, the World Wide Web site of The Philadelphia
Inquirer. Point your browser to http://www.phillynews.com
**********************************
Matthew Gaylor
freematt@coil.com
1933 E.Dublin-Granville Rd., #176
Columbus, OH 43229
**********************************
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Gulliver!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:22:23
EID:7a09 206802c0
MSGID: 1:352/266 313FD0F0
KC> Hehe. I love to read _AiW_ and Jonathan Swift's _Gulliver's Travels_
KC> (ntm _Candide_, by Voltaire) every six months or so, in a sort of
KC> ritual sacrifice to my God of Cynicism.
I can relate to that one with Gulliver's Travels!! Did you happen to see
the Dinosaurs the evening they featured the Great Potatoism?
Interesting viewpooint.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Diversity and enrichment
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:44:50
EID:41a0 20680580
MSGID: 1:352/266 313FD0F1
MM> is to our advantage to teach discernment without discrimination.
NS> This is probably not a bad idea . . . }:)
Now if we can just get the concept across to others.
NS> Rather, allow them the option to expose themselves to many varied
NS> things, etc. Otherwise, there's an element of control there.
NS> Don't make the kids go to Chinatown with you, but allow them that
NS> option. Don't make them eat strange things, but have different
NS> foods there for them to eat if they feel inclined to try them. My
That's my approach. I enjoy watching the discovery stages as people of any
age willing explore things they haven't encountered before. I just recently
learned I like Escargo! I'd never been treated to it before... soooooooo
I went shopping and did it myself. Delicious... unusual too.
NS> pissed off was a few years ago when we had a visit from Child
NS> Protective Services because they heard we were perhaps kinda
NS> cultish and wanted to make sure that we weren't going to sacrifice
NS> our offspring to Satan or something. Fucking idiots. During the
NS> interview we let them know that we've pagan, yes, but that they
NS> were also pretty stupid for ever assuming such a thing. They
I recently notified my new Landlords of my religious viewpoints and got
a suprising reaction. She thought it was silly for me to be concerned and
that no one would do something like "that". Gave me a hug and a big smile.
Now I wonder what the neighborhoods reactions will be as she handles the
incoming calls this summer as I worship outside. Should be interesting.
I have also been extrememly obvious about my addiction to nature since a
raccoon showed up at the back door. Some people are still discriminatory,
but there are those few here and there that just can't understand why anyone
would be that way. Refreshing!
NS> Not only am I convinced that they'd never do that to a Xtian set of
NS> parents ("Hey, why don't you guys take your kids down to the Church
NS> of Satan so they can get some perspective and make a fair
NS> choice?"), but I saw it as unnecessary. I didn't adhear to any
A fun answer might have been...."Well, with the Amish meeting on Monday,
and the Mennonite and Quakers mid week, the Native American ceremony on
the next week, and Jewish readings... they have plenty of variety. (Honery
aren't I) Either that or tell them you were investigating the Great Potatoism
from the show Dinosaurs.
NS> My point is that we shouldn't foster beliefs on them until such a
NS> time as they can think for themselves and be able to accept or
NS> reject them for themselves.
My library has a bit of everything... some Hindu, some Islam, a Bible, Homeric
Poems, Finnish folk tales, Irish mythology, Greek and Roman.... uh.... Native
American.... theres a comparative religious texts book.... a couple of Christian
prayer books, some Biology, History, Chemistry, Medical technology, fantasy,
fiction, and even a bit of classic eroticism. Lots of variety... My daughter
read by 4 and browsed to her hearts content... All I did was answer questions
to the best of my ability and get her more information as she desired it.
Seemed to work. She's 24 and doing rather well.
NS> wish (unless its life threatening) . . . when they burn themselves,
NS> they'll learn not to pick up hot things.
Precisely the type of thing I mentioned. Let them experience the harsh
side of things... with a lot of comfort and care, but not with sheltering
them from reality. Death exists... you don't run out and buy your child
a new canary to try to hide that the old one died. However, that seems
the way some philosophies work. Hide the harsh things so the child doesn't
experience anything but calm and peace. Hey... not all of life is calm
and peaceful. Conflict exists and we can not learn to handle it well if
it is never experienced. (Teach them to fight fair. I guess that's kind
of my meaning.)
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Abusers
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:49:59
EID:83f5 20680620
MSGID: 1:352/266 313FD0F2
JG> up thinking that was the way you were suppose to be. It is a LEARNED
JG> BEHAVOIR and has to be more UNLEARNED than punished.
Sometimes it crosses over the area of needing only unlearning. It needs
intervention! I recently faced my Uncle with his abusive treatment of my
aunt.... boy was I nervous..... He took anger management classes, and some
child care classes.... seems like they've all learned a lot. But I wonder
how different it would have been if I had remained silent.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Ducks and geese!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:51:48
EID:2c95 20680660
MSGID: 1:352/266 313FD0F3
JG> This message reminded me of the time I was feeding some ducks and
JG> geese.When I fed the ducks, they would all crowd over and try and
JG> snatch thebread from one another or get it first.
JG> But when I fed the geese, they all just waited their turn. They
JG> didn'ttry to get each others bread or but in. It was quite
JG> interesting.
Honk Honk Honk.... Guess you just classifed me as a Goose. I would rather
take my turn than fight over the scraps.... but then that may be because
I feel secure that the scraps will go around.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Bakker
|Date: 08 Mar 96 20:03:41
EID:1751 2068a060
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 140d84a2
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 bbe80414
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
* Reply to a message in a_theist.
Jim Staal spewed forth the following Ann Nunn:
JS> As one who has experienced our system of arrest and incarceration,
JS> I do not see where 'rehabilitation' is the prime goal as opposed
JS> to 'punishment'.
Please enlighten us, Jimbob. Are you saying that you are a felon?
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
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|From: Hymie
|To: All
|Sub: Hebes
|Date: 08 Mar 96 22:47:00
EID:70bc 2068b5e0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:123/610.0 3141022f
Is this the "fundy kike" conferenece?
... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: All
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 08 Mar 96 22:55:02
EID:54d1 2068b6e0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:123/610.0 31410231
King David and his Luciferian Establishment elite, want to make you his
slave and put you on their "global plantation."
At the end of the 1000 years Satan will seduce the nations of the world,
prior to Armageddon -- rv.20:7-15.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: legend
|Date: 08 Mar 96 04:56:00
EID:f6c2 20682700
-=> Quoting Annette Spence to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> lie about the radio they hid and the food tickets they stole. I think
AS> this is a necessary attitude. One SHOULD agonize. If we ever reach
AS> the point where we KNOW that we are right without consulting our
AS> conciounce and our God we are WRONG.
Some things, Annette, are SO wrong that they don't take agonizing over.
Ten Boom's writings have struck me as someone who did the right thing,
eventually. But they have an undertone of reluctance.
My husband's grandfather maintained a radio in Dokkum, Friesland. (The
very northern part of Holland) He built it himself...and could have died
just for having it. From it, and a friendship with some of the younger
German soldiers billeted in Dokkum, he was able to know when the sweeps
for military age males were to occur and he was able to help the young men
of the village hide. He was able to organize the farmers in the area and
they secreted food for the women and children of the area...food that the
Germans would have taken, not caring about the starvation they caused. There
were few Jews in that region, but Pake knew where they were and only a very
few ended up in the camps.
Pake was a very religious man. Dutch Reformed. He always said that there
are
some things that are SO wrong that there is no question about them being
evil.
And that you fight the devil with any means possible. Had he been caught,
Pake would have died smiling, knowing that he did his best.
Until his death a few years ago, even the family didn't know about all he
was involved in during that time. He didn't talk much about it...and never
bragged about what he did. He would say only that he did what he had to
and
that the wrongness of it had to be stopped. After his death the family found
the journals he kept, letters from people he had helped and other things
that
told more of the story.
I miss Pake. He was in his 80's when Leo and I married. He immediately started
studying English (even though he continued to pronounce everything as it
was
spelled ) and came here for a visit. And we visited him the next time
we
went to Holland. From coming here, he developed a taste for iced tea and
fell
in love with the idea of clothes driers. Enough that he bought himself
one when he returned home. I wish we could have had him around longer.
... nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 08 Mar 96 05:30:00
EID:88f5 20682bc0
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
DC> Now, deep fried mashed potatoes is real. Very tastey, I might add.
Sound's almost like the restaurant here in town (Henry's) that serves
deep fried grits. They come in a small block, sort of like a brick.
Come to think about it, they also have the same consistency and taste
as a brick.
Anyway, nobody else in town serves them that way and I've never been able
to figure out how they do it.
... Some folks look for answers...others look for fights...
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 08 Mar 96 05:44:00
EID:fdf9 20682d80
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Judith Bandsma <=-
DM> of assholes running for president to another set, but as a
DM> chunk of a kid's life, it is major. You'll miss a lot.
I know. I'll also be limited as to what I can send them while they
are in Turkey. Oh well, it will be good for the kids to see other cultures.
But I hope to hell Mike and Jo will get a computer and an internet account
while they are there. Long letters, hand written, have NEVER been popular
with me.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: they're at it again
|Date: 08 Mar 96 05:50:00
EID:28e5 20682e40
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JH> As a matter of fact I didn't see that particular message, thanks.
JH> (I filter out everything not addressed to ALL in IUFO.)
Actually, that was only the last of 4 parts. The rest was so convoluted
that it made no sense whatever.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 05:57:00
EID:fea5 20682f20
-=> Quoting Joanna Amren to Judith Bandsma <=-
JA> senses a lot. I couldn't think clearly, and life just seemed to go
on
JA> around me, not with me. I insist that I am better off without them.
Good for you. I mean that sincerely. Isn't thinking wonderful?
... Not now . . . I have to go mow the laundry.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 08 Mar 96 06:08:00
EID:6901 20683100
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Al Schroeder <=-
MS> Hmmmm, I'm not quite sure, but, I think 19 grandchildren and 12
MS> great grandchildren with one more on the way.
It'll probably take 3 column inches when my grandfather dies. He had 2
children (my mother is deceased), has 9 grandchildren, 22 great-grandchildren,
and 10 great-great-grandchildren.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Question
|Date: 08 Mar 96 06:19:00
EID:7e6c 20683260
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Styx Allum <=-
RB> I normally don't divulge such information but I feel strangely
RB> compelled to do so... I'm a bi-sexual, Transylvanian, vegetarian,
RB> non-smoking, loves-to-dance, near-sighted dwarf.
Sounds like the perfect man to me.
RB> And, oh yeah... a Republican.
Never mind!
... I agreed to suspend my disbelief, not hang it until dead.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Stuart Lumgair
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 08 Mar 96 06:28:00
EID:76f2 20683380
-=> Quoting Stuart Lumgair to Jesse Jones <=-
SL> Moral equivalency ? Since when did the US ever have the
SL> balls to try to help people in other countries start their
SL> own democracy ? The US foriegn policy has continuously
And so much of today's problems in the world could have been prevented if
the US had not been trying to protect their own monetary interests in
other countries. Both Mao Tse Tung and Fidel Castro applied FIRST to the
US in their struggles to free their countries. And were turned down flat
because it would have meant that the businesses in those countries would
have lost their choke-holds.
How much different would the world be if Cuba and China had become democracies?
Would the arms race and the cold war have even happened if that had been
the case?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:57:46
EID:73b7 20684f20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6369ef35
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 13f2c9b4
JG>> Again I am not sure of the exact details, or what options
JG>> were tried and exhausted. Were authorities allowed
JG>> entrance to the farm to make sure that reports of child
JG>> endangerment were not true?
TL> State of Texas, Child Protective Services, investigated
TL> those allegations repeatedly and came up BLANK.
The BATF's affidavit for a search and seizure warrent didn't
mention anything about the children or their treatment. What
was mentioned were the following items which had been recently
purchaced (all in 1992) by the Davidians:
104 upper receivers with barrels for AR-15/M-16
8100 rounds 9mm and .223 ammunition for AR-15/M-16
20 100 round drum magazines for AR-15/M-16
260 AR-15/M-16 magazines
30 M-14 magazines
1 M-76 grenade launcher
2 flar launchers
200 M-31 practice rifle grenades
40 to 50 pounds of black powder
30 pounds of Potassium Nitrate
5 pounds powdered Magnesium
1 pound Igniter cord
91 AR/15 lower receiver units
26 hand and long guns of various makes
90 pounds of powdered aluminum
Estimated value: in excess of $44,300
A March 10th, 1993 search and seizure at a La Verne, CA residence
owned by Vernon W. Howell (David Koresh) produced the following
materials:
1) Sulfuric acid
2) Nitric acid
3) Baking soda
4) Saw dust mixed with aluminum powder
Not only had they ammassed a large arsenal (the above only
represents one year's addition to what they already owned), but
as evidenced by the chemical purchaces they were planning on
manufacturing explosives.
I'm not totally unsympathetic to your cause, I do feel the BATF
acted outside their legal powers, the seizure and later stand-off
were completely bungled and there should have been a criminal
investigation of those responsible.
But don't paint the Davidians as a bunch of innocent lambs.
They weren't. The world is a better place without them.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lon S. Mabon
|Sub: Who's who...
|Date: 08 Mar 96 18:11:44
EID:3ec0 20689160
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 636e275d
REPLY: 1:228/87.0 313fa8e5
On Mar 08 02:29 96, Lon S. Mabon of 1:228/87 wrote:
LSM> Interesting origin lines here, folks. Keep tabs on those
LSM> posting times, Fredric...this just might be a new 'staal'
LSM> alias:
LSM> -!- GEcho 1.20/Pro
LSM> ! Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616)
LSM> 285-9031 (1:228/87)
I would strongly advise the thermonuclear incineration of
Grand Rapids in order to stop this plague before it spreads
further.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 08 Mar 96 14:33:00
EID:a712 20687420
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 70e40e2b
MB> The "need" for myth would have been even greater among ancient
MB> peoples who had so many more unanswerable questions than we
MB> do. It is clear that myths did not arise out of some basic
MB> need for religion, but rather religion arose out of some basic
MB> need for myth.
I would say that both arose from a deep need for "answers." We
humans really hate it when we don't know the whys and wherefores and
there are always people who are more than happy to make something up
and then become the "person who knows the answer." If they can make
a buck from becoming a self-styled "expert," all the better.
... Are the noises in my head bothering you?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
---
* KMail 3.10m Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:27:00
EID:1919 20688b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 99f1d187
FR>Tp> By the way, what do your comments add to the alleged topic
FR>tp> of this echo; or did you think you were posting to the 'net
FR>tp> butt buddies gossip' echo?
FR>kw> Ohh, sounds like David got you in the quick. Why do you
FR>kw> just assume that anytime a group of men get together, it
FR>kw> is for homoerotic reasons?
FR>Well now, Katherine, we include you gals among our "butt buddies" too.
Thank you, Fred.
FR>Tp> I have every confidence that you and your LOSER buddies will
FR>tp> find a way to discount it's value. That's why you're losers.
FR>And yet he continues to post his right-wing extremism lunatic postings
here.
If no one but the rational people posted, this would get boring fast.
The fundy-lunatic fringe do have their uses.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Do Baptists suffer from Amen!orrhea?
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:27:00
EID:ee2b 20688b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f9d6d26b
JA>-> JA> I still insist that I am not an idiot.:) I could have JA>
JA>-> been...then...but not now. Find a differnt person to pick on.
JA>-> Maintain your silence and you shall get your wish.
JA>Nope, sorry, no can do. You see, i enjoy Holysmoke too much for
JA>that. So I'll just be waiting around for my chance to jump in again.
JA> Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used to be.
Do
JA>ya think any one would be interested? nah...probably not. Myabe you're
JA>right. Guess I'll just read...not write.;)
What have you changed into?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Doing my best to piss off the Religious Reich
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Baptism
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:27:00
EID:0ae2 20688b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6cf042cb
BJ>I pray some will listen and come to know God!
BJ>Brad
SELF BLESSING
Blessed be my eyes that have seen this day
Blessed be my ears that hear the voice
Blessed be my mouth that it may speak of the blessings
Blessed be my feet that have led me in these ways
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Evangelists: the higher the hair, the closer to God.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:27:00
EID:b144 20688b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e98baa2e
DW> SA> bitchy. I think you do not have a sale here, J.J. However,
maybe
DW> SA> you could get David Worrell to share his chocolate pie with you
when
DW> SA> he gets it from Lynda...
DW>He can have the whole damn thing. I've already said I'm not eating anything
DW>she cooks. :)
Coward.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Even if you understood women, you'd never believe it!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:27:00
EID:6937 20688b60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 67f647e7
WITAN PARLEY
CHARGE OF THE GODDESS
I am the Great Goddess, listen to my wo