God Damned Fundies!
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Robert Berndt
|Sub: Re: Founding Father Beliefs 2/2
|Date: 07 Mar 96 16:32:03
EID:cd94 20678400
" The belief that the United States was founded as a Christian
nation is held by those who think it's in danger of coming under
the influence of non-Christians. But the fact is it never was a
`Christian nation,' except in the most literal sense that most of
the people in it were Christian. Not a word is said about
Christianity in the Constitution. Nor is it mentioned in the
Declaration of Independence. The Declaration refers only to
`nature's God.'
" As for the beliefs of the founding fathers, the remarkable
thing is not that so many believed in Christianity but that so many
expressed doubts about it. Alfred Aldridge has shown that Ben
Franklin never believed in the divinity of Christ and as a young
man he toyed with polytheism. Frank Manuel reports that as an old
man John Adams became fascinated with paganism, and spent the
better part of a year slugging through the twelve volumes of
Charles Francois Dupuis's history of the origins of religion, which
advanced the heretical idea that Christianity and paganism stem
from common fertility myths. Adams never abandoned his faith in
Christianity, but was troubled enough by Dupuis's account to
suggest that a reward `in medals of diamonds' should be offered to
anybody able to refute him.
" Thomas Jefferson believed in God and considered himself a
Christian, but he seemed to reject the divinity of Christ and
considered Calvin's sermons blasphemous. Alexander Hamilton, both
at the beginning of his life and near the end, expressed faith in
Christianity, but during the revolutionary period he was utterly
indifferent to it. Ethan Allen derided Christian revelations as
either deceptive or `spurious.' Thomas Paine condemned the
`monstrous belief' that God had ever spoken to man. George
Washington, though he belonged to the Episcopal church, never
mentioned Christ in any of his writings and he was a deist."
-- "I Love Paul Revere, Whether He Rode or Not" by Richard
Shenkman, ISBN 0-06-016346-1, pages 27-8.
" Certainly the founders weren't hostile either to religion or
the clergy as, say, the French revolutionaries were soon to become.
But neither did they insist, one and all, that religion was a
pillar of liberty. Indeed, many of the most illustrious founders
plainly rejected the idea. Historian John Diggins say those
involved in writing and defending the Constitution, men like James
Madison and Alexander Hamilton, `expressed profound ambivalence
about religion, often seeing it as a divisive rather than
cohesive.' And some of those who later came to believe in the
necessity of religion, such as Adams, originally thought
religiosity was of little matter. Adams said in 1787 that `Neither
Philosophy, nor Religion, nor Morality' can govern people `against
their Vanity, their Pride, their Resentment or Revenge'; `Nothing
but Force and Power and Strength can restrain them.'"
-- "I Love Paul Revere, Whether He Rode or Not" by Richard
Shenkman, ISBN 0-06-016346-1, page 29.
BTW, I note two things. Firstly, Abraham Lincoln was not a founder
of this country, though you will probably utilize him because he's
commonly considered among historians to be the first president to
extort religion in government in any kind of active sense.
Secondly, you didn't give the citations of all the quotes
attributed to Washington by you, but instead give the Xtian history
books they are in. Can you be more specific?
... Careful planning is the key to safe and swift travel. -- Ulysses
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:03:53
EID:90d4 20678860
Kenneth is atheist:
1% Martin Goldberg, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Kenneth Mcabee <=-
KM>>> There are no other gods.
DR>> What a stupid thing to say. Do you have any evidence that
DR>> the gods do not exist?
KM> The Bible.
MG> yAre you as simple minded as you present yourself here?
JG> What is wrong with being simple minded ?
Because simple minded people are stupid.
JG> I like the idea?
I knew it.
JG> The simpler the better.
I can understand how this would have an attraction to you.
JG> WHy try to make things complicated if they don't have to be.
Because he's not being uncomplicated, he's being stupid. He
utilizes the bible as a source for there being no other gods, when
he either forgets or is so monstrously uniformed to the fact that a
lot of other gods are mentioned in the bible, to wit (and please
note that this is not a complete list):
(ACT 14#:12)..Jupiter..........("Zeus-Pater").
(ACT 14#:12)..Mercurius/Mercury
(ACT 19#:35)..Diana of the
Ephesians.
(EZE 8#:14)...Tammuz...........(Assyrian/Babylonian).
(1KG 11#:5)...Ashtoreth........(Canaanite Goddess).
(1KG 11#:5)...Milcom...........(Ammonite God).
(1KG 11#:7)...Chemosh..........(Moabite war God).
(1KG 11#:7)...Molech/Moloch ...(Ammonite God).
(1KG 18#:18)..Baalim...........(Canaanite God[s]).
(1KG 18#:19)..Baal.............(Canaanite God ["Lord"]).
(1SM 5#:2)....Dagon............(Ekronian/Babylonian God).
(2KG 5#:18)...Rimmon...........(Babylonian/Syrian God).
(2KG 17#:30)..Ashima...........(Samaritan Goddess).
(2KG 17#:30)..Nergal...........(Assyrian/Babylonian God).
(2KG 17#:30)..Succoth-benoth...(Babylonian Goddess).
(2KG 17#:31)..Adrammelech......(Sepharvite God).
(2KG 17#:31)..Anammelech.......(Sepharvite God).
(2KG 17#:31)..Nibhaz...........(Avites God).
(2KG 17#:31)..Tartak...........(Avites God).
(2KG 19#:37)..Nisroch..........(Assyrian God).
(ISA 46#:1)...Bel..............(Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian
God).
(ISA 46#:1)...Nebo.............(Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean
God).
(JDG 8#:33)...Baal-berith......(A regional variation/aspect
of Baal).
(LUK 11#:19)..Baal-zebub.......(Philistine/Ekronian regional
aspect of Baal).
(NUM 25#:3)...Baal-peor........(Moabite regional variation/aspect
of Baal).
Ergo, the bible recognizes other gods as existing.
... Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names. -- John Kennedy
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 07 Mar 96 16:55:03
EID:2d8f 206786e0
Pharaoh Forced to Sin:
1% Michael Hardy, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Elliott Finesse <=-
MH> That was after the eighth plague. By that time, God had chosen to
MH> make an example of him -- inspired by his hardening his own heart over
MH> the first five plagues.
MH> All Pharoah had to do was free the Hebrews and repent before their
MH> God OF HIS OWN FREE WILL BEFORE GOD HAD TO RESORT TO REPEATED COERCION
MH> and I've no doubt that God would have forgiven him and blessed his
MH> people.
JG> What are we suppose to feel sorry for the Pharoah and Curse God for
JG> his wretched treatment of the Pharoah ?
JG> DUH ?
You mean other than that god stopped Pharoah from complying and
therefor caused the deaths of untold innocents that the Pharoah
probably felt bad for, for no other reason than god was having a
shit-fit?
Duh indeed.
... Buddhist ordering a pizza: "Make me one with everything."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 07 Mar 96 16:58:18
EID:d399 20678740
Question:
1% Michael Hardy, 10% Ryan Shaw,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
RS> Michael Hardy spewed forth the following George Rudzinski:
MH> Is there? Unless someone is preventing black people from posting
MH> here, it seems it's purely a matter of whether any choose to. No
MH> one is keeping them out, nor is anyone forcing them in. That is
MH> true of all of us.
RS> Except for Staal of course. In his case, there seems to be some type
RS> of supernatural alien powere keeping him here against his will.
I bet it's Assmotrin that is animating the dead corpse of Staal.
Although I find this unseemly (why go out and steal a Rambler,
fer-crying-in-your-milk, when you could have stolen a decent
Pontiac or something?) I find it consistent with the behavior of
both Assmotrin and Staal . . . and it conveniently ties up a lot of
loose ends. NOW we know what the curse for J.J. is: to be followed
around by the undead Staal for the rest of his days. The horror,
the inhumanity . . .
... ? "Get real, get a crate & reconcile to me, your Lake Superior." ?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:11:23
EID:3840 20678960
Tennessee Commandments:
1% Ryan Shaw, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> What's wrong with that ? As long as it isn't a law. What is wrong
JG> with encouraging people to post rules such as
JG> Thou shalt not kill
JG> Thou shalt not steal
In the first place, what you are quoting is not the Decalogue, or
Ten Commandments.
JG> And then encouraging people to abide by them.
Its one short step from encouraging to mandating.
JG> Would you prefer they encouraged people to bear and keep arms.
Where is that in the Decalogue?
JG> Lower the drinking and and legalize marijuana ?
Where is that in the Decalogue?
Now you're really being unread. Let me quote for you the Decalogue
(Ten Commandments) of the bible. I'm referring to the Decalogue
from Exodus 34:11-27, later broken and rescribed by Moses (I added
the numbers for edification purposes):
EXO 34:11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold,
I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite,
and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and
the Jebusite.
EXO 34:12 [1] Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with
the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be
for a snare in the midst of thee:
EXO 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and
cut down their groves:
EXO 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose
name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
EXO 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land,
and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice
unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his
sacrifice;
EXO 34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their
daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons
go a whoring after their gods.
EXO 34:17 [2] Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
EXO 34:18 [3] The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven
days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee,
in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou
camest out from Egypt.
EXO 34:19 [4] All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every
firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is
male.
EXO 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a
lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break
his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt
redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
EXO 34:21 [5] Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou
shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt
rest.
EXO 34:22 [6] And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the
firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of
ingathering at the year's end.
EXO 34:23 [7] Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear
before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
EXO 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge
thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when
thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God
thrice in the year.
EXO 34:25 [8] Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with
leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the
passover be left unto the morning.
EXO 34:26 [9] The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt
bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. [10] Thou shalt
not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Anyway, these are the originals, as outlined:
EXO 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for
after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with
thee and with Israel.
EXO 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights;
he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote
upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten
commandments.
The others that we know of as the Ten Commandments (mentioned again
in Deuteronomy) are a later rewrite. The above laws are the only
listing of Yahweh's laws that are referred to as the Ten
Commandments in the Bible. Note that there are no demands to love
parents, none about killing, adultery, stealing, bearing false
witness, or coveting. In fact, the later rewrite might be a lot
easier to live under, if it ever come to that, for read above what
they would do to people who worship other than they would!
Get a clue.
... Facts are stupid things. -- Ronald Reagan.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:19:50
EID:3315 20678a60
children:
1% Karen Davis, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> In terms of "illegal" abortions, the woman is not "forced" to die.
They are forced to die because they are forced to have illegal
abortions, which are usually inferior to state-controlled medical
procedures.
... "We are upping our standards... so up yours." Pat Paulsen
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:39:23
EID:ac58 20678ce0
Your Daily Murder:
1% Al Schroeder, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE. Think about it. No point having all
JG> those orphaned children and widows around after their hubbys have died
JG> in the war.
You are a barbaric idiot. I hope you toast.
AS> (Small voice) What?
THIS is the type of Xtian I respect. My hat's off to you, Al. You
are humane, understanding, and from what I understand, give a heck
of a barbeque (G).
JG> These things were said "tongue in cheek".
Gristly bits of dying flesh. Ha. Ha.
Mothers and children in utter terror and hopelessness. Again. Ha.
The raping of the virgins commences. Giggle.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you're one sick fuck,
boy.
JG> But you have to take into consideration that we are not talking
JG> about the 1940's or the present American idea of morality and
JG> spirituality.
So that makes it right?
JG> God has to deal with this
JG> kind of mentality in ALL people he tries to tell what to do. He does
JG> not and will not use people as puppets. We are free to choose what we
JG> will believe and do. And when it comes to listening to God, we will'
JG> only be able to do it in terms of what WE are willing to accept. We
JG> will interpret what God says in accordance to our own system of
JG> beliefs and what we consider appropriate behavoir. We are limited in
JG> our ability to percieve what god is telling us.
But god mandated the above-mentioned behavior. You make him sound
like a victim, when he's still got bloody slobber on his chin.
JG> We also have to deal with those who have no intention of listening
JG> to God. Therefore in those times to do any less than they did would
JG> have been to show weakness and not get the respect that winning a war
JG> brings.
So, kill those who don't believe as you do, eh? I have news for
you: war is not about respect. War is about conquest. Those
innocent women and children were killed by armies of god for no
real reason, no matter how much you try to get the clockwork
between your ears to rationalize it.
JG> That was life in those times and that was what God had to work with.
God mandated it, and god was responsible for it, yet to hear the
Xtians speak, he had no other choice, when in fact he did.
JG> And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for
JG> your new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you
JG> continue the race through the virgins.
What a dickless speciman of manhood.
AS> . . . I'm not blind to the offensiveness of that passage.
JG> But you are thinking in terms of todays standards and your spiritual
JG> enlightenment.
It doesn't matter when it happened, it was still wrong. Period.
JG> Now tell me, what do you do about these people who are intent on
JG> destroying you if you are the "bombee" ? What do you think God would
JG> tell you to do ? What do you think the people 5 or 10 THOUSAND years
JG> ago would "think" God was telling them to do. Also what would God have
JG> to tell the people to do in order to get those "bombers" to stop their
JG> aggression ?
I see. The women and children and the virgins all had bombs and
were picking on the superior forces of the armies of god. I had
thought you stupid, but now I can only say that you're a boob, a
drone, a no-necked little geek.
JG> I suggest that you also THINK THIS THROUGH !
JG> How do you stop unreasonable aggressive people from slaughtering your
JG> people if all they will respect is an equally agressive reply !
Kill the women and children and rape the virgins . . . yeah,
that'll get you feared but never respected . . . and it'll continue
the cycle of hate and war.
JG> Anything less will just cause them to fight back.
Heavens, we certainly wouldn't want the women and children and
virgins being raped to fight back while we were committing
atrocities on them. You're a pig of the lowest form.
I hope someone saved this for the FAQ. Fucking unbelieveable.
... Convert or Kill: It's not just a good idea, it's God's law!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: childish ignorance
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:44:57
EID:2020 20678d80
childish ignorance:
1% Kenneth Cavness, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KC> Well, *duh*.
KC> We have Grass on the Earth. That's proof enough for me -- it's right
KC> in front of you. Why can't you see it?
JG> You certainly are free to believe that, pardon me if I don't give it
JG> the same credibility I do to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
So, you don't believe in grass. Why is that?
... you believe your own bullshit?G.R.*No, but I do believe the Bible.K.M.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:48:24
EID:8408 20678e00
Evidence:
1% Andrew Masten, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Scientists set up a laboratory to try and
JG> simulate the conditions of primal earth. Excuse me but are they not
JG> themselves proving that an intelligence is needed to arrange these
JG> conditions. And even then they cannot duplicate the process.
You've just proven that an intelligent creator couldn't have done
it. Congratulations.
... A hematite suppository will take care of that problem. -- J. J. Hitt
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: CHURCHES
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:51:35
EID:d75f 20678e60
CHURCHES:
1% Martin Goldberg, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> "Uninformed" ? I don't really know what that is suppose to mean.
No. I suppose you don't.
... Jim's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 07 Mar 96 17:59:15
EID:8408 20678f60
Evidence:
1% Martin Goldberg, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> I have to agree with you here. But then who is to say it didn't?
JG> I have always said that the theory of evolution takes more faith
JG> to believe in than the story of creation and should be called
JG> the religion of evolution :-)
MG> Then I would have to class you as a fundy moron. There are worlds of
MG> evidence for evolution. Almost as much as for gravity. do you call
it
MG> the Religion of Gravity?
MG> I'm afraid you look very foolish here. Get a simple biology text and
MG> study it. Then post what you know about evolution.
JG> And what genus does "fundy moron" come under in the evolutionary chart
JG> ?:-)
I don't know the genus, but I know it is a cercaria.
... Go soothingly on the greasy mud, for therein lurks the skid demon.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 07 Mar 96 18:00:51
EID:03ea 20679000
Thumb-sucking Fundy:
1% Martin Goldberg, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> I am afraid that the WORD WAS defined and He IS a reality.
You have every right to be afraid. Be very, very afraid. But
prove it.
... AH, no you didn't, you came here for an *argument*!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Re: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 07 Mar 96 18:07:28
EID:60ea 206790e0
Waco Rememberance:
1% Fredric Rice, 10% Terry Liberty-Parker,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
TL> Fredric Rice wrote in a message to David Worrell:
FR> Are you clowns going to blow up another federal building this year?
FR> Today's the 4'th and so far the body count has remained
FR> stable. There has been nothing in the news about
FR> "remembering" Waco yet so I suspect the FBI is doing their
FR> job successfully.
dw> I'm hoping they get real brave and decide to attack an Army post or
dw> something similar. The 7th Light Infantry HQ would do nicely. Maybe
I
dw> ought to send Terry a map that he can pass on to his friends. :)
FR> That would KICK! I would gladly donate $100.00 to these
FR> unsalted nuts to buy ammunition for such a venture. Just
FR> think about it! These unsalted nuts take over a National
FR> Guard Armory and they can really dig in and stay put,
FR> safeguarding American Liberty.
TL> You boys look sooo cute.... exposing your biases and jacking each
TL> other off in public like this.....
Sounds like jealousy to me . . .
BTW, Fredric, I agree. I would pay to have pizza sent in, just to
watch the show.
... Terry's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Re: NOT a Ringer, I swear!
|Date: 07 Mar 96 18:59:39
EID:a3fe 20679760
NOT a Ringer, I swear!:
1% Norbert Sikes, 10% Sean McCullough,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
SM> * Forwarded from "Holy Smoke!"
SM> * Originally by Sean McCullough
SM> * Originally to Gwenny the Pooh
SM> * Originally dated 4 Mar 1996, 20:29
> Kenneth Mcabee > George Rudzinski : NOT a Ringer, I swear!
SM> also wik Norbert Sikes
__________^^^_________^^^^^
ÿ ??? Sykes
> KM> I will accept the word on my Saviour Matthew 4:7.
> Your Savior is Matthew? Now THAT'S a serious schism in the Church
> . . .
SM> Your Saviour is Matthew??
SM> You're in DEEP TROUBLE!! :-)
Tell me about it . . . };) Any word from Gwenny? I haven't seen
her post here in the longest time.
... Astronomers do it with Uranus.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Jim Owens
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christian canabalism
|Date: 07 Mar 96 20:20:00
EID:4b28 2067a280
MSGID: 1:3611/2 000d4ecd
FR>If you wish I could look up specific references to when and why the Christan
FR>ritual began to specifically state that the cookie actually becomes the
fles
FR>of their gods. It's described in several places in "Holy Horrors."
Is "Holy Horrows" a book? Yes, I would like to learn more. Offer of
help accepted!
Jim
* SLMR 2.1a * ...<---Wook! Tagwine Twacks!
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10
* Origin: Dixieland BBS / USR 14400 all lines (1:3611/2)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Robert Berndt
|Sub: Founding Father Beliefs
|Date: 07 Mar 96 00:33:00
EID:5737 20670420
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 2117ce67
REPLY: 1:280/26 6517a3eb
> On 02/07/96 at 00:20 STYX ALLUM posted to me the following quote,
> supposedly from George Washington:
> SA>> "The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian Doctrine"
> Since he did not post his reference, it is impossible to tell where
> he got the quote.
The information I provided was an excerpt from a compilation that
someone posted in HolySmoke sometime last year. As I was only
interested in providing the quotations (as opposed to a flood of
bibliographical footnotes) I elected not to include them in my
final archive copy.
The quotation has been addressed in a FAQ sheet which I located
during my search of the internet for "Treaty Of Tripoli".
Here is the applicable excerpt from the FAQ document:
_________________________________________________________________
[f19]
The USA is not a Christian nation/state
"Is it true that George Washington said that the United States is
not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion?"
No. The quotation often given is in fact from Article XI of the
1797 Treaty of Tripoli (8 Stat 154, Treaty Series 358):
Article 11
As the government of the United States of America is not
in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it
has in itself no character or enmity against the laws,
religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as the said
States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties
that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever
produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the
two countries.
The text may be found in the Congressional Record or in treaty
collections such as Charles Bevans' "Treaties and Other
International Agreements of the United States of America
1776-1949", vol. 11 (pp. 1070-1080).
The English text of the Treaty of Tripoli was approved by the U.S.
Senate on June 7, 1797 and ratified by President John Adams on June
10, 1797. It was recently discovered that the Arabic version of the
treaty not only lacks the quotation, it lacks Article XI altogether.
The person who translated the Arabic to English was Joel Barlow,
Consul General at Algiers, a close friend of Thomas Paine -- and an
opponent of Christianity. It is possible that Barlow made up Article
XI, but since there is no Arabic version of that article to be found,
it's hard to say.
In 1806 a new Treaty of Tripoli was ratified which no longer
contained the quotation.
_________________________________________________________________
Credits:
mathew
> He also posted me the following challenge:
> SA>> This is not a Christian nation. Don't just take my word
> for it. Take George Washington's.
I have familiarized myself with a myriad of different writings of
George Washington, and have seen no references to Jesus; rather
that of the supreme ruler of the universe (I don't recall his EXACT
wording, but that should suffice as an accurate paraphrase).
I found nothing which would lead me to believe that he intended
that religion should be a basis for founding our nation; rather
that such a nation should not restrict the practice(s) thereof.
Our nation permits atheism, as well; but it would be equally absurd
to claim that the United States is an atheist nation. Or Buddhist.
Or Muslim. Only egocentrical Christian arrogance would lead anyone
to believe that permitting Christian practices equates to actually
being a Christian nation. It most certainly is not. ("Thank God!")
;-D
> It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe,
> without the agency of a Supreme Being.
Not at all impossible. Occam's Razor easily illustrates that.
> It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of
> a Supreme Being.
Any being, whether human or otherwise, which could do such,
would be considered supreme. Therefor, the statement is academic
and moot. It also says nothing of whether the being relates to
Christian dogmas.
> It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being.
> Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion.
That is by far the most ludicrous statement that I have seen in
many months. It ranks among statements like "this software makes
your system run faster"; whereas it merely lessens how slow it runs.
The speed of the machine remains constant. Calling something
"necessary" does not make it so. Religion exists DESPITE lack of
viable (i.e. rational) reasoning.
> On October 9, 1789, President Washington wrote:
> While just government protects all in their religious rights,
> true religion affords to government its surest support.
"True religion" supporting the government; not vice versa.
Read your constitution, Robert.
Had his government been Christian, it most assuredly would NOT
support non-Christian religious ideals. He sought to protect
ALL in their religious rights.
> Post your sources Styx, or it will be safe to assume that you
> made it up the quotes.
Fallacy of false cause again, mister Christian?
Assume all you want. It merely proves that you know nothing about
me that you should make such a pompously blind allegation.
Ask your god for forgiveness, as you'll receive none from me.
-Styx
P.S.
It shall be amusing to see you attempt to portray Jefferson as a
Christian.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 09 Mar 96 09:58:00
EID:4ceb 20694f40
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 2289b39d
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 1b80f676
>>> have left the echo for good
> SA> We've heard this story before. We know how it (never) ends.
> SA> Jimbo has already slipped up a couple of times.
> js> Only once, sir...ok...this twice.
> FR> You may not leave until _I_ say you may.
> Does that mean I have to come back???
No, because you obviously never left.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Question
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:09:01
EID:4ac0 20695120
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 2289b39e
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 142fd2f2
>SA> Paraplegics? Elderly? People with hairy backs?
>SA> Where should the ethnic/racist/sociopolitical classification
>SA> end, George?
> I normally don't divulge such information but I feel strangely
> compelled to do so... I'm a bi-sexual, Transylvanian, vegetarian,
> non-smoking, loves-to-dance, near-sighted dwarf.
Oh, sure. And you probably drink coffee and drive a car, too.
Hell, you might even have a cat or a dog.
"these subversive types must be stopped!" [insert fundy grin]
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Question
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:25:02
EID:ca89 20695320
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 2289b39f
REPLY: 1:228/87.0 313ed635
>RS> but I haven't the faintest idea why you keep pressing on
>RS> with this. What difference does it really make what
>RS> color someone is?
> It makes no difference what color a person is,
Then stop trying to make it an issue here.
> color makes the world a beautiful place.
>RS> That is indeed the beauty of the online world.
> If there are people of color posting. A colorblind medium where
> there are no people of color participating is an oxymoron.
No, that would be a paradox. An oxymoron is two words which combine
to create a paradox. "Pretty ugly", "Plastic silverware",
"Christian Science", etc.
And there are "people of color" posting here, George.
For obvious reasons, they aren't subjecting themselves to your
search to expose racism.
>RS> where ideas and information can be exchanged _without_
>RS> human nature getting in the way of things.
> I only wish that were so.
Actions speak louder than words, George. If you want it to be so,
don't act counter to the wish that you just expressed.
---
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SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 152/20 8 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:22:00
EID:3c4b 20688ac0
-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Preston Simpson <=-
BJ> Undoubtedly, not as much as _I've_ missed being away for nearly a
BJ> year!! It's good to be back...=)
You've been gone but definitely not forgotten.
... Sign on fence; SALESMEN WELCOME, DOGFOOD IS EXPENSIVE.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: DEMONS...DEMONS
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:25:00
EID:a9fe 20688b20
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Judith Bandsma <=-
DW> As a final note, if you have any problems, do not bother calling
DW> Microsoft Tech Support. It will be a complete waste of your money.
I no longer have the problem with that particular game. I deleted it
accidentally while I was trying to get it to run.
Leo took pity on me and bought me the 11th Hour to make up for it. Nice
game. Also does dual duty. It has a WAD on the CD so that you can play
DOOM in the Stauf mansion. Now, where did I put my dramamine?
... nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: THEY'RE AT IT AGAIN
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:32:00
EID:b2d4 20688c00
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Judith Bandsma <=-
DW> How many damned moderators do they have over there now, anyway?
A better question would be 'how many posters do they have?'. I think about
every 3rd person has some moderation capacity after their name.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DEMONS...DEMONS
|Date: 09 Mar 96 07:47:00
EID:df3d 20693de0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Judith Bandsma <=-
AS> If frustration is good for the brain, you're probably Einstein Reborn
AS> by now.
Getting close, Al, getting close. Do you think maybe Win95 is Bill
Gates' attempt to raise the intelligence level of the general
computer using public?
... A living example of Artificial Intelligence.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 09 Mar 96 08:00:00
EID:a88f 20694000
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Dan Ceppa <=-
AS> having read the book...that it wasn't there just to have a good acid
AS> trip with.)
That's what Fantasia is for. Talk about pretty colors!!! whooo boy.
I missed Woodstock only because I was due to deliver any minute. I was
willing to risk it but the other people going weren't. As the baby was
stillborn, it's probably a good thing I didn't go.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: I'M WORKING ON IT
|Date: 09 Mar 96 08:05:00
EID:3bd3 206940a0
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> Got a Netmail from Mike about you transmission problems and
DC> Netmailed him back. Figured I let you know that that got
DC> here, but nothing else.
He said he had fixed the message and sent it. Oh well.
Yeah, for some reason, my netmail will have 1:1/0 appended to BOTH the
to: and from: lines when I upload it. Neither of us can understand what
is
going on or why it is happening.
Your netmail got to me ok...but I guess you didn't get the reply. Until
I
can find another board that will allow me outgoing netmail access, I can
read but I can't write. That's ok if the other person also has an i-net
address but the pits otherwise.
... Can I upgrade my Hard Drive to a WARP drive?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: FOF "HATE" 2
|Date: 09 Mar 96 08:34:00
EID:dea2 20694440
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Judith Bandsma <=-
NS> I can understand this. I love Halloween down in that section of
NS> the city. You haven't lived until you've almost been knocked down
NS> by a dozen rollerskating men in nun's outfits. Gives religion a
NS> whole new perspective.
Or hitchhiked across the city with a long-haired, freaky looking person
who was playing the bagpipes at the time. And that wasn't anywhere
near Halloween time.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Atheists are taking it back!
|Date: 17 Mar 96 09:04:10
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 26890a9f
PID: FM 2.02
Clocking in on the "Ha ha! Screw you!" bus we have a group of atheists
who have "taken back" a park on Mount Solidad here in San Diego. Taken
back from who? Those evil Christians who's only desire is nothing less
than theocracy in America.
Well kind of.
For the past 73 years the Christanic death cult has taken over the park
for their yearly fertility festival of Isis rituals (which Christanics
still mistakenly call 'Easter.' ) Way back when the State of
California accidentally installed a 43 foot Christanic cross (my guess
is they forgot to read the Constitution of the United States and didn't
know it was illegal to do so.)
It turns out that a guy decided to see if the city would deny all
others access to the park on the day of this particular ritual and so
filed the papers to "own" the public park for the day in question.
Imagine the "problem" faced by the clerk... for the past 73 years one
group of cultists have taken over the park and no one else has ever
filed for that day before. Should she ignore the fact that the guy was
the first to file the request and just wait for the official request
form from the Christanic cult and risk a lawsuit when the dates of
delivery prove she violated the rules or should she just grant the
permit according to the rules and risk the "Ha ha!" factor from the evil
atheists and the "how could you?!" factor from the evil cultists?
The guy was granted the permit and found himself with nothing to do
with it. He contacted a local atheists group and gave the permit to
them. They in turn contacted Christanic churches in their area,
invited Islamic and Jewish groups, and generally opened the park up to
anyone who wanted to come to the services which the atheists grroup was
going to offer that day.
Several Christanic death cult churches immediately called the group of
atheists "devils." The cultists got even more upset and
resentful when they learned that two of the Christian churches which
were explicitly invited to the services AND WHICH ACCEPTED were a
Christian church specifically for homosexual men and woman and a brand
of Christian church which allow women in their priesthood (er, that
would be priestesshood) among other things in keeping with a more
progressive, pro-female stand.
It should be interesting to see how the rules get changed to keep this
from happening again. Of course then the city will be in violation of
Constitutional seperation of cult from State if they try to impliment
anything.
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: waco "remembered." How many die this time?
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:46:41
EID:b778 20718dd4
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 268d97b4
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 313f8558
PID: FM 2.02
TP> Comes the off-planet announcement from Worrell's World.
dw> Are you really this clueless, Terry?
He's really that clueless.
TP> Do you actually HAVE an opinion on the AbortionSpeak ban?
dw> Yes, I do. I have not chosen to share that opinion with you. The opinion
dw> that I have chosen to share with you is that you are a frightened,
dw> paranoid little git whose life is so empty that you have to dream up
dw> vast conspiracies in order to make yourself feel important.
You've hit it right on the head. These people feel powerless to have any
say-so over their own lives so they invent huge conspiracies to give themselves
a reason why they're nobody.
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/890 218/801
PATH: 102/890
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:01:49
EID:9c62 206f8020
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149950c
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 250a6c00
13 Mar 96 10:20, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
-=>> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
DW>> 08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>>> God is limited
DW>>> more valid than that of all those who have gone before you?
JG>> Do you always snatch three words out of a three HUNDRED word
JG>> message
DW>> When those three words are in direct contravention of what damn
DW>> near every other Christian in the world claims, yes.
JG> And thank you for your four words that say of me
JG> "your opinion more valid". You forgot to quote that in your response
As someone else (Don Martin?) pointed out to you, I did not alter the meaning
of your quote in the least. You said God was limited (with no qualifiers
whatsoever) and that is what I quoted. You trying to pass "your opinion
more valid" as an entire quote from me is sheer stupidity on your part.
I know how to construct a sentence. Those four words are not a sentence.
Thus, it is obvious you deleted something. See the difference?
JG> In fact you go on to say my opinion is more valid than " that of
JG> all those who have gone before you"
Lying is a sin, Jim, or had you forgotten that? I'll accept your apology
now.
JG> You think you can twist my words to make them something you can
JG> ridicule without me returning the favor.
How did I twist your words, Jim? Do you deny saying that God is limited?
Here, Jim - I will requote the entire paragraph that I extracted "God is
limited" from:
>Sorry it doesn't work that way. God is limited in his ability to
>help his messengers by those who hear the message and respond. When
>a person buys a book, goes to a comedy club, a show, watches tv goes
>to school They PAY for that "entertainment" and "education". If they
>buy a bible or go to church or religious crusade or watch a
>religious show, these things also cost money. But instead of being
>supported by advertising for entertainment which comes out of your
>pocket everytime you buy a product, or by taxes for education which
>comes out of your pocket every payday , religious entertainment and
>education are paid for directly by the people who partake in them.
>So the next time you watch a religious tv show, consider paying for
>the entertainment. Send a donation.
Now, please show me the context that I deleted that makes the statement
"God is limited" mean something other than what it looks to mean. Notice
that you said nothing about chosing to be limited, you lying sack of dogshit.
JG> Why not first try and understand the context of the words
In the original message, there was no "context". You simply stated that
God was limited, and said nothing about him "choosing" such limitations.
Regardless, "chosing" to be limited is mere semantics. He either is limited,
or he is not. Which is it?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:04:58
EID:3096 206f8080
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149954a
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 250a6bfc
13 Mar 96 10:20, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
-=>> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
DW>> 07 Mar 96 15:38, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>> is doubt. A person who knows who they are and what they believe ,
JG>> doesnt have to prove it to anyone.
DW>> I know I'm Jehovah. Since you've just said I don't have to prove
DW>> it to anyone, bow down and worship me.
JG> And I don't have to believe you.
Amazing - you're exactly right. Now tell me why we should believe you.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:05:31
EID:3096 206f80a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314995e2
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 250a6c01
13 Mar 96 10:20, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
-=>> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>> Look at a computer in everything it does, it only really has 2
JG>> choices at a time , on or off. binary.
DW>> Are we computers, Jim? Would you say a computer has free will?
DW>> No? Then why do you say we have free will when we're only capable
DW>> of 2 choices?
DW>> Does the word "extortion" mean anything to you, dipshit?
JG> It is still a choice, and each one makes you what you are.
A choice is not the equivalent of free will, is it? If I hold a gun to your
head and tell you that I will kill you unless you give me all your money,
am I allowing you to exercise your free will? No? God does exactly the same
thing - worship me, or suffer for eternity.
JG> You can choose to call another human being a "dipshit" or you
JG> can choose to be polite.
You can choose not to be a dipshit, too, Jim.
JG> You obviously made your choice up there,
As have you.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:08:08
EID:6ea0 206f8100
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314996e0
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 250a6c02
13 Mar 96 10:20, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from. tell
JG>> me WHAT went "bang" tell me WHAT made it go "bang".
DW>> Quantum fluctuations. You do know how to read, right?
JG> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! Like you have any idea of what a "quantum
JG> fluctuation is"
Yep.
JG> How many have you personally encountered ?
None. How many gods have you "personally encountered"? Did you remember
to take pictures?
JG> Seen any universes created by that method lately ?
Seen any universes created by gods lately?
JG> I thought not.
That is glaringly obvious.
JG>> Oh yeah you will say
JG>> it all came out of "nothingness". Then I will say my god came
JG>> out of "nothingness".
DW>> Occam's Razor removes the need for your God, junior, unless you
DW>> can come up with some evidence.
JG> Junior ? You have no idea how old I am ! Do you think I would give
JG> you any credibility in telling me how old the universe is ? You
JG> ASSume you know a lot of things don't you?
I notice you ignored the bit about Occam's Razor. It just cut off your head,
btw (though in your case, that is not a fatal wound).
As for how old you are, please point out where I claimed any idea of your
physical age. The "junior" refers to your mental age - you still beleive
in fairy tales.
And I assumed nothing - you give all the evidence that anyone could need
to reach the perfectly valid conclusion that you have the mental age of
a 6 year old.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:12:16
EID:6ea0 206f8180
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31499716
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 250a6c03
13 Mar 96 10:20, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>> Why would I ever want to talk about "carbon dating" I don't argue
JG>> about silly things like the "age of the universe" or "evolution".
JG>> These are all just things created by god that scientists run
JG>> around discovering. "Oh look over hear, another dinosaur bone"
JG>> "Hey look I found another planet, heck it looks like it might be
JG>> 6 billion years old, quick hand me a slide rule so I can figure
JG>> this out. We may have to change our estimate of the age of the
JG>> universe". Enjoy.
DW>> That's it, li'l fundy, revel in your ignorance. Wallow in your
DW>> self-imposed stupidity.
JG> Again your own words , show you for what you are.
Again, yours do too. You see to be perfectly happy in your ignorance of
the world around you. It's sad, really.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:13:17
EID:5b60 206f81a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31499759
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 250a6c04
13 Mar 96 10:20, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Do you have a lot of homosexuals in your religion?
JG> Suffice it to say, I would say the possibility exists that there are
JG> homosexuals in my religion, all they have to do is follow the same
JG> two commandments of.
JG> 1) Love God
JG> 2) Love their neighbor.
JG> Whether or not they do that is between them and god.
In all fairness, I have just gained a little respect for you. maybe you
can set an example for the more rabid of your brethren.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:17:43
EID:af5f 206f8220
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31499903
12 Mar 96 00:08, Andrew Masten wrote to David Worrell:
AM>> I haven't seen anyone bother to cite evidence of how the
AM>> universe self assembled out of atoms, and then atoms ultimately
AM>> self assembled into man.
DW>> That's because no one has made that claim, numbnuts. You have
DW>> made a
AM> Oh, really David. Thats because your not man enough to stand up and
AM> tell us your explanation for how we got here.
I have no explanation, Andrew. Unlike you, I am man enough to flatly state
that I do not know "how we got here".
AM> Until then you just expose yourself as a coward who's only
Namecalling, Andrew? Is Jesus proud of you right now?
DW>> claim, however, and have provided nothing to support it other
DW>> than supposition. Where is your *evidence*?
AM> I did provide evidence
Lying is a sin, Andrew. Once again, you provided supposition. We have seen
no other universes, thus we cannot use the hypothetical condition of these
hypothetical universes as evidence for anything. In other words, you provided
no evidence.
AM> you going to join the big boys step up to the plate and provide
AM> some evidence for whatever you believe, that your too scared to
AM> share on this echo??
What evidence do I need to provide to support the claim that I do not know
"how we got here"?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:21:21
EID:fce9 206f82a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31499955
12 Mar 96 00:21, Andrew Masten wrote to David Worrell:
AM>>> If, on threat of execution by torture, they did not recant, I
AM>>> would be compelled to believe they were not fabricating a
AM>>> story.
DW>> Do you believe Joan of Arc's claim that she talked to God?
AM> Anyone can talk to God David, even you.
Do you believe everything that Joan said about her talks with God? After
all, she did not recant on threat of execution by torture (she was burned
at the stake, if memory serves). Do you even know who Joan of Arc was?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: THEY'RE AT IT AGAIN
|Date: 15 Mar 96 15:52:36
EID:f81c 206f7e80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149929f
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63afd359
13 Mar 96 17:38, J.J. Hitt wrote to David Worrell:
JH> But you're right... they had no one to moderate except each other.
JH> I'd love to see them slam the door shut on the gated Internet
JH> material, but they seem to think it's some sort of benefit.
JH> It's like walking into someone's living room for quiet conversation
JH> but first turning on the TeeVee, stereo, garbage disposal, blender
JH> and dishwasher while playing bagpipes and lighting off six foot
JH> strings of chinese firecrackers.
True. The internet garbage is why I finally dropped the echo. I
had all those messages twitted, but got tired of the wasted download time.
---
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:22:38
EID:99ec 206f82c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314999a1
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63baa475
14 Mar 96 13:31, Martin Goldberg wrote to David Worrell:
PS>> I got your pic via e-mail recently. (Would have responded sooner,
PS>> but the computer center got the bright idea of going down during
PS>> spring break to clean up things and give everybody a
MG> So, when are you going to make this available for public consumption?
MG> Just encode it and post it here.
I file attached it to Quarrella, with a message explaining what it was.
Check his Holysmoke file area. If it isn't there, I'll either netmail it
to you or send it to one of your internet addresses.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:14:26
EID:589a 206f81c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149982b
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 250a6c05
13 Mar 96 10:20, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Does morality change, Jim? I trust you would say that it is not a
DW>> good thing to slaughter women and children out of hand today. Was
DW>> it a good thing in the time of the verse quoted above? Your God
DW>> did order it to be done, after all, didn't he? Is God capable of
DW>> an act that is not good?
JG> It definately is not a good thing to slaughter anyone in my opinion.
JG> It was not a good thing back then either in my opinion.
JG> However having said that, it is a known fact that we often are in
JG> situations when we have to do things that are not good.
JG> An example is the war to stop the Hitler Horrors. Is it good to stand
JG> by and watch a people be thrown alive into furnaces?
Was God incapable of protecting the Israelites from the Midianites (or whoever
the hell the Israelites were slaughtering at the inception of this thread)?
For that matter, could God have not stopped Hitler, thus preventing the
Allies from having to kill millions of innocent civilians?
JG> I am sure it sickened God to see his children behave that way on
JG> both sides. But I am just as sure that when you have a child and
JG> he is being beaten up by the school bully, that you would want
JG> him to be able to stand up and defend himself against such an
JG> aggressor.
I am not omnipotent. If I was, I could (and would) protect my child.
JG> To be sure, it would be best if we lived in a perfect world.
JG> Some men choose for it not to be so.
Your God *made* it an imperfect world, Jim.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Giggle
|Date: 15 Mar 96 13:48:45
EID:c8ca 206f6e00
MSGID: 1:352/266 314A15CD
AS> ... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
Hey, that sums up today! Thanks.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Western thought
|Date: 15 Mar 96 13:53:16
EID:71f2 206f6ea0
MSGID: 1:352/266 314A15CE
AS> the scientific method arose out of Western culture, which combined
AS> the Platonian passion for logic and philosophy with the exclusivist
AS> views inherited from Judiac tradition...that there is one truth to
There are some things that are only one way... such as laws of thermodynamics
and such... there are other things that are quiet flexible... what kind
of dog to own.... where to live....how to put your dishes in the cabinet
etc. For me religion falls into the hey keep the diversity area.... scientific
knowledge is almost always theory until proven pretty well.... but then
there's the Hizenburg uncertainty principle heheheh
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:00:00
EID:4f5b 20707800
On 13 Mar 96 10:20am, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to CHAD OSTEN:
CO>> I don't know if it was you or not, but somebody mentioned about how
CO>> people need to submit to christ...that isn't exactly free choice..how
CO>> would a christian reconcile their need with being a human and being
CO>> a christian in this scenario?
JG> Of course it is a free choice, if you submit yourself willingly.
JG> A good example would be that of a wife who trusts her husband enough
JG> to give him the final say in family affairs. She believes that whatever
JG> decision he makes will be in the best interests of all concerned.
Any act of submission is not truly a free choice. Though in your case, I
would beg to differ. Submission does not equal trust. They are two entirely
different things. Most of the time, submission=fear. Would you like your
wife
to fear you?
JG> Many women no longer feel that way. They feel it is belittling to trust
JG> their husbands enough to willingly submit to his decision.
It's called independence, m'dear. What you seem to forget is that every
person is an individual, free to make their own decisions about the things
that affect THEM personally. I've touched upon this subject with you already
(and have STILL not recieved a reply--I wonder why!). A healthy relationship
entails working together on your problems, and mutually coming to a
decision...If this is not possible, you compromise. What you are espousing
is
the beginnings of abuse.
Becke
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 154
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:00:00
EID:df3d 20707800
On 13 Mar 96 10:20am, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to DAN CEPPA:
-=>> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Germiquet <=-
DC>> He does??? Why not prove the evidence that your god even exists
DC>> before you tell us what you claim your god can do?
JG> I have already dealt with the illogic of demanding physical proof
JG> of a spiritual entity.
What's so illogical about that? You have to provide evidence that something
exists before you can debate on the qualities of said thing. You have yet
to
establish that your God exists. Either do so, or stuff it and admit your
beliefs are nothing more than a bunch of hot air.
Becke
... Indians worship the cow. You worship an ass - yourself!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 154
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:00:00
EID:73c9 20707800
On 13 Mar 96 10:20am, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to DAVID WORRELL:
-=>> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>> is not going to stop you from ending up there.
JG>> It is like being on a train to new york screaming I refuse to go
JG>> to new york.
DW>> No, it is like refusing to get on the train if I don't want to go to
DW>> New York. Who is going to put me there?
JG>
JG> You were BORN on the train my friend. You have to make a concious effort
JG> to get off of it.
JG>> In the meantime what god is doing is sending you messages to get
JG>> off the train.
And according to your beliefs, who put us on the train in the first place?
God. This supports our allegations that there truly is NO free choice when
it
comes to Christianity. God put us on the train to Hell, and the only way
of
getting off is to submit to him and bow down and kiss his ass. Sounds like
God has his own S&M fantasy going on here... To break it down for you--
God puts us on a train to hell, thus damning us from the beginning. The
only
way off this train is to give up everything that makes us truly free- our
intelligence, our pride, our sense of right and wrong, our ability to make
our own judgements by thourough examination or both sides, in general, our
ability to question. To God, we are nothing more than slaves in this
scenario.
You see in terms of black and white--that there is no choice of being on
the
train. Those who don't espouse your mythos see it another way. They still
retain the choice of whether or not they are getting on the train. They
see
clearly what the train is, and know what it involves, and using their better
judgement, don't get themselves on the train in the first place. That,
m'dear, is what free will is...not the choice you pointed out above.
You have to remember one thing. Religion is learned. We don't come out of
the
womb spewing out bible verses and subscribing to an illogical mythology.
Someone, somewhere down the lines, indoctrinates you in THEIR beliefs at
a
point in time where you are very impressionible and don't really have the
ability to reason against what they are saying. One of the others here (I'm
pretty sure it was either Fred or Sean or David R.) mentioned that this
is a
form of child abuse. I tend to agree.
JG> From my perception it isn't telling people to do that to determine
JG> if they are followers. It is saying, if they inadvertantly drink
JG> poison they will not die. It doesn't mean run out a drink poison to
JG> prove you are a christian.
So if I slip some Draino into your coffee, and you drink it without realizing
it's in there, you won't die?
Becke
... "Truth through superior ignorance": The religious way!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 154
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:00:00
EID:bcfd 20707800
On 13 Mar 96 10:20am, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to PRESTON SIMPSON:
JG> War is a man made thing, not from god. It is man who has chosen to be
JG> an aggressor and as such those being attacked must defend themselves.
Then how do you explain the bible verse, "I am a God of war."??
Becke
... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 154
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: APOSTATE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:00:00
EID:1672 20707800
On 13 Mar 96 10:20am, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to BRIAN KOLACY:
-=>> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>
JG>>That is why I do not trot out reams of "references" and bible
JG>>commentaries. God is personal to me. I know more have to prove He is
JG>>alive than that I am alive. I believe I am therefore I am. I believe
JG>>God exists therefore He exists. Period. I just don't pretend that my
JG>>mortal being can comprehend in entirety an immortal spirit.
BK>> So, do you have any evidence that your god exists outside imagination?
JG> No more than I have evidence that you exist outside imagination.
Hmm...we can see Brian, can touch him, can speak to him, can hear him
answer...We can easily produce Brian. The same can't be said of your God.
Put up or shut up.
Becke
... Indians worship the cow. You worship an ass - yourself!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 154
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: CHILDREN
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:00:00
EID:f846 20707800
On 12 Mar 96 02:09pm, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to BECKE JONES:
JG>> He is with you even now as you are reading this message. God is a
JG>> "spirit" you cannot see him or touch him physically, but if you want
to
JG>> soften your heart, you will feel him. And if you choose to listen,
you
JG>> will hear him. He IS speaking to you right now. But you don't have
to
JG>> listen. Your choice.
BJ>> In the real world, that's referred to as schizophrenia...
JG> How sad :(
JG> The voice of reason, kindness, love , referred to as schizophrenia.
I don't need voices to tell me to be reasonable, kind, or loving. If you're
claiming to hear voices, divine or not, you're taking the chance of being
locked up in the funny farm. Plain and simple.
Becke
... I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks left!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 154
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 16 Mar 96 18:10:38
EID:51cc 20709140
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 143cb09e
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 217 days
From a message to Dan Ceppa:
AM> Prior to the influen of Christianity, there were no big groups
AM> devoted to charitable work. In Christ's time, there were no food
AM> banks, no shelters for the homeless no clothing drives.
Yes, the poor and disadvantaged of the middle ages really
fared well under Christianity. <-sarcasm
The citizens and leaders of many countries were overwhelmingly
Christian for centuries. And yet, compassion for the poor was
conspicuously absent. Why was that? Could it be that humanitarianism
is a concept not necessarily associated with religion?
AM> Many, half
AM> hour sitcoms, are laced with sexual innuendo.
The horror!
AM> Pornograhy is a billion dol
AM> cottage industry. You can't go to a convience store without
AM> being assault with all manner of depravity.
True, the National Enquirer and Weekly World News ARE depraved.
AM> Consequently sexually communicable diseases are also on the rise.
That could be due to a reluctance to use condoms moreso than
drooling over Miss October.
AM> Then there's aids. Which I don't think is God's personel judgement,
AM> just natural consequences of living a life contrary to God's plan.
Then, it's God's pre-judgement?
AM> It is you and others of your ilk who are shoving your
AM> godless agenda down the throat of this country.
Yes, atheists are all over the telly spreading their
religion. They're a real nuisance at airports with
those damn posies and they're a major pain in the ass
when they come knocking at my door on weekends.
But what's really irritating is the way they want our
children to only hear THEIR views. When they demanded
that evolution be taught in the churches alongside creationism,
THAT was the last straw!
AM> on my soap box and pontificating, but you really push a hot button
when
AM> you declare the ill's of a society to be the result of Christianity.
It
AM> was the Judeo-Christian ethic that made this country rise to world
AM> dominance in short order.
You don't think millions of acres of untapped resources and
an aggressive capitalist system had something to do with that?
AM> A quote from Louis Bounoure, former president of Biological Society
of
AM> Strasbourg and director of research at the Natural Center of Research
in
AM> France. "Evolution is a fairytale for grownups. This theory has helped
AM> nothing to the progress of science. It is useless."
AM> Quoted in Wysong "Creation-Evolution Controversy" page 418.
What is Louis' alternative theory? The fact that he's a
'former' president may be a clue to Louis' credibility.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Come Together
|Date: 16 Mar 96 18:10:39
EID:a2b6 20709140
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 143cb09f
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 217 days
JH> Here come ol' flat top
JH> He come groovin' up slowly
JH> He got Joo Joo eyeball
JH> He one holy roller
JH> He got hair down to his knees
JH> Got to be a joker he just do what he please
JH> Anyways, I suddenly found this song to be prophetic and to have deep
JH> meanings. I am pretty sure of who ole flat top is.
ROFL! I think we should use this opportunity to refer
to Jesus as 'ol flat top' (at least for a week or two).
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 18:10:39
EID:de0a 20709140
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 143cb0a0
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 217 days
SA> RB> I don't disagree. But the thing is, the possession of the
SA> RB> Christian faith did not 'prevent' more powerful cultures
SA> RB> from acting abysmally toward less powerful ones. If the
SA> RB> actions of Christian armies are no better than Pagan ones,
SA> RB> then where is the moral superiority of Christianity?
SA>
SA> Frankly, the Celts were a lot better off under pagan Saxon
SA> invaders than certain other peoples were under Christian invaders
SA> - just ask the Beothuk Indians and the Tasmanian Aborigines. Oh,
SA> wait, you can't. They're extinct. Every last one of them, and
SA> not just in the cultural sense, either.
Good point. 'Christian army' SHOULD be an oxymoron. If
Christians follow the teachings of that Jesus fellow, what
are they doing in an army? But history has shown that
Christian armies can spill blood with the best of em. And
with the added incentive of 'God on their side', they can
do it with considerable gusto.
SA> If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
SA> Some day you might have to choose;
SA> When the class war rages on the factory floor,
SA> If you don't fight, you lose.
What are you, a commie?
-!-
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 16 Mar 96 18:10:39
EID:3491 20709140
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 143cb0a1
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 217 days
JG> Of course it is a free choice, if you submit yourself willingly.
JG> A good example would be that of a wife who trusts her husband enough
JG> to give him the final say in family affairs. She believes that whatever
JG> decision he makes will be in the best interests of all concerned.
JG>
JG> Many women no longer feel that way. They feel it is belittling to trust
JG> their husbands enough to willingly submit to his decision.
Some husbands are ignorant assholes. Why should anyone
have to submit to an ignorant asshole? This is just
another of Christianity's sweeping generalizations (all
men are worthy of leadership).
The thing that defines character is not between your thighs,
it's between your ears.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acute: Opposite of a ugly
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [1/2] Re: lack of any Evi
|Date: 16 Mar 96 18:10:39
EID:611e 20709140
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 143cb0a2
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 217 days
JG> This particular phenomena is being dealt with in terms of paradigms.
JG> Paradigms are thought patterns. For example if you have been trained
JG> to think in terms of triangles, you may not recognize the importance
JG> or relevance of circles when they pass through your thinking. You will
JG> just ignore them, let them slip through, unawares. As you say, one day
JG> someone stops for a second and says "Hey whats this round thing good
for".
JG> TADA ! New idea. So today we realize that to come up with some new ideas,
JG> we have to be willing to depart from some of the normal ideas and look
into
JG> some of what may have been considered crazy ideas a bit more closely.
triangles = religion
circles = evolution
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [2/2] Re: lack of any Evi
|Date: 16 Mar 96 18:10:40
EID:9efa 20709140
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 143cb0a3
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 217 days
JG> I like to think of my own current relationship in the way you state
above.
JG> That god knew what I would need many years ago and had prepared my fiance
JG> at the time of her birth to grow up in such a way as to meet my need
the
JG> day I met her.
And what of those wives who turn out to be total bitches?
And what of the husbands who like to slap the 'little lady'
around? Did God prepare those mates also?
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 16 Mar 96 18:10:40
EID:88ba 20709140
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 143cb0a4
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 217 days
SA> Gee, how can you tell? :) The Progressive Conservatives
Progressive Conservatives? Do you also have Reactionary
Liberals?
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: seedy CD
|Date: 16 Mar 96 00:09:00
EID:f3f3 20700120
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 314a0702
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3145769d
-=| On 12 Mar 96 13:02, David Worrell said: |=-
DW>>> How's it feel to have your buttons pushed, Rooster?
DO>> Don't flatter yourself, kiddo. As I care not a whit what you
DO>> think, you are not capable of button-pushing.
DW> You just replied out of the kindness of your heart, right?
DW> Here, pull the other leg, dipshit.
As you also respond to mine, who is pushing the buttons of whom? ;)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 16 Mar 96 00:19:01
EID:1376 20700260
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 314a0930
REPLY: 1:116/19 0356B578
-=| On 12 Mar 96 03:09, Al Schroeder said: |=-
AS>> Feel free to address me as "Al Scroder" or something.
DO>> :-)
AS> Of course, it is better than my nickname (and my brother's) when we
AS> were in high school, which was "scrotum"...
Thought about it... ;)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 16 Mar 96 13:50:51
EID:74d1 20706e40
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 14b0e820
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3149cc74
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Preston Simpson spewed forth the following David Worrell:
PS> To add insult to injury, my tuition's being jacked up with a
PS> "technology fee." Guess I'm paying for Internet access after all.
PS>
Hell, we've had that here for a number of years. It's $150 per term and
that's on top of the $150 fee for misc. expenses. The latter are probably
for services that I cannot even use such as SafeRide. It's a program to
take girls out of possibly dangerous situations with men. They are so anti-man
that if you are a woman with a 14 year old kid and both of you happen to
be in a dangerous situation [say, at the shopping mall after dark and you
don't feel like walking home] the kid can't ride with you -- according to
their policy at least. The misc. fee also funds all of the clubs that I
will never join, including all of the clubs that I cannot even possibly
join. They are pondering the placement of a pub in the student union and
would use these fees. That I could live with. The profits from the pub
would go to the misc. fee fund so the more you drink, the less you pay.
Yay! ;)
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
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PATH: 152/67 8 270/101 218/801
|From: Alan Hess
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 16 Mar 96 20:27:07
EID:802d 2070a360
Whilst masticating on , Selena Kerr (1:252/107)
wrote to All:
SK> Hey all! Is anyone familiar with the predictions of M.
SK> Nostradamus? I have recently read that the world is supposed to
SK> end by nuclear war at the end of the year 1999. This seems to
This would solve the problem of getting our computers to handle the date
change from 1999 to 2000. I feel much better now.
SK> the bible. There are a few things that Nostradamus predicted
SK> that have already come true, so I guess the end is inevitable?
Yes, it is. Millions of years down the road, the expanding sun will engulf
the earth. If man hasn't polluted himself to death by then, he'll have
a major problem air-conditioning the planet.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: Re: BIBLE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:44:40
EID:42cb 20705d80
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hello Becke
It seems you speak for most of the people that don't believe in
God. You said most of you have already read the bible, I really
don't think So!
Now if you had read the bible Becke you would know that the
bible is true.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture given by [inspiration] of God, and
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:
Job 32:8 But a spirit in man: and the [inspiration] of
the Almighty giveth them understanding.
You see Becke God needs to give you understanding before you will
get what is being said. You must pray to him and humble yourself
before Jesus, to gain understanding. Other wise it is just words on
a page.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall [not
live] by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the
mouth of God.
Now Becke if you would like to know God, get down on your Knees and
repent of your sins! For further information, if you want some help
please reply.
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 244/108 100 400 250/99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Brad Jackson
|To: All
|Sub: satan runs
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:44:41
EID:049c 20705d80
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hello
I would like to point out that the messages written to me have
dropped off, a lot!! This tells me that when satans deciples
are face with the truth, they run scared!!
You and your bose (satan) know the Bible to be the word of God.
When you can't scare people into leaving you give up, just like many
times in the bible.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, [Satan]: for
it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only
shalt thou serve.
Matthew 8:32 And he said unto them, Go . And when they were come
out, they went into the herd of [swine]: and, behold, the whole herd
of [swine] ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and
perished in the waters.
Now that you deciples of (satan) are not filling this area with
garbage, maybe the true christians may discuss topics of the Lord
Jesus Christ.
This is a religion debate echo after all! Of course we know that
there is only one true religion and that is Christianity!!
The Belief that Jesus Christ is God.
John 10:30 [I and Father] are one.
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 244/108 100 400 250/99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Brad Jackson
|To: All
|Sub: Always with me
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:44:42
EID:3458 20705d80
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hello.
I like to post in this area (Religious Debates), to show the
young people not to fear (satan) and his deciples.
Psalms 23 A Psalm of David. The LORD my shepherd; I shall not
want. {2} He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me
beside the still waters. {3} He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in
the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. {4} Yea, though I
walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil:
for thou with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. {5}
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. {6} Surely
goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I
will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Have you ever stomped your foot near a flock of birds, and watch
them scatter? Well that is the same way it is with (satan) and his
buddies!
God loved us so much he came to live with us on earth to save us
from our sins.
Brad
... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 244/108 100 400 250/99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Michael Buttful Hardy lies again
|Date: 16 Mar 96 22:46:39
EID:e13e 2070b5c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314b5de0
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 25906901
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Fredric were killing time yakking about Michael Buttful Hardy
lies again:
MH> There is nothing admirable about Fred.
FR> I'm sure that all fundies who have had to question the
FR> validity of their deeply-held beliefs feel much the same way. Rather
FR> than admit that the failing is with his superstitions, he feels
FR> resentment toward those who have the audacity to prove him mistaken.
FR> The emotional and financial investment in his religion is proven a
FR> waste so of course he's resentful.
mh> He's a firm believer in guilt by association -- if Hitler
mh> hated Jews, and Hitler called himself a Christian (although
mh> there's ample evidence he didn't really believe), then all
mh> Christians hate Jews.
FR> Hardy is "mistaken" as usual. Adolf Hitler was undeniably a Christian
FR> -- for some mysterious reason Hardy elected not to quote Hitler's own
FR> words again nor admit that _most_ of Europe's Christian churches were
FR> signatory to statements of ideological agreement with Hitler's stated
FR> plans.
lb> Fred -- can you confirm or deny this, please?
FR> Yes, I can confirm or deny it. The question I would ask of you,
FR> however, is "what do you think?"
I think time made me post assuming you would know what *I* was doing. :)
I think:
1. That Michael is deeply mistaken when he says there is nothing admirable
about you -- and it is a mistake that has come from assuming that your
treatment of him applies to a group, rather than to him as an idividual.
2. I think that Michael was attempting to quickly bring MM into an
antagonistic nonrelationship with you before she had much opportunity to
decide for herself == as he attempted with me when I first started, and
as I have witnessed him do with others. I wasn't sure you were even
bothering to read his posts anymore, and wanted to give you opportunity
to
respond to the slander present in this one.
FR> You should know enough by now of my
FR> position through my statements these last six years or so to answer
FR> the question for yourself, shouldn't you? You should also know all
FR> you need to know about Hardy's record of dishonesty to the point where
FR> you should be able to check your answer.
Yes. I think I have spent enough time in encounters with both you and Mike
to be well aware of the absurdity of his statement.
lb> In your opinion, do all Christians hate Jews?
FR> I'm mildly insulted for your even asking.
I can understand that, and I apologize for giving you insult -- I read his
comment, and could come up with no short way to express the grim anger it
created to hear him try keep someone from getting to know you on their own
terms by use of such a blatently emotion-ridden, ridiculous assertion.
After trying to answer him directly two or three times, I was running out
of time, and what I came up with was crossposting it to you so you could
deal
with it. By that time, I was way too angry to speak much, and I probably
shouldn't have said anything at all. I can see how my terse words look
like
I was seriously questioning you. I'm sorry friend -- the impression I left
was exactly the opposite of what I intended.
I'll be clipping this reply to save to text so I can give it to you as soon
as I see you next. I don't want this misunderstanding to continue a moment
longer than necessary.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Those are two hyporhetorical questions." -- Bush
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Baha'i 1/2
|Date: 16 Mar 96 23:44:12
EID:2d97 2070bd80
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314b5de1
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14711491
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Al and Rick were killing time yakking about Baha'i 1/2:
AS> An interesting, sane, viewpoint. But with Christianity at least one
AS> miracle is CENTRAL to its message, the Resurrection. Notice that I
AS> don't argue at the same length for any of the other miracles...water
AS> into wine, walking on water, the loaves and the fishes, the healing
of
AS> lepers...because they are comparitively irrelevant.
RM> Water into wine, for instance, really does smack of parlour tricks.
RM> What's the point?
AFAIK, the purpose of miracles is to show the handiwork of God directly
--
God revealing himself without human/natural intervention. Obviously, if
the
intent was for Jesus to reveal himself as God incarnate, it failed. This
was his first miracle mentioned in the gospels, and yet later we learn that
these same townspeople and his mother are bit exasperated with his
being considered some sort of holy man.
As a metaphor however, the story has many points. For those who follow
Marian teaching, it shows Mary as being a sort of "intercessor" between
those
in need and her Son (she is able to talk him into what he would otherwise
be
disinclined to do). For most Christians, it begins the journey to
the Last Supper, where Jesus says of the wine "This is my Blood" (literally,
HE becomes the wine) -- in the Wedding story, Jesus does not do as cultural
tradition dictates, and provides cheap crapola wine once the guests are
too
tipsy to notice -- HIS wine is the best they've ever tasted. As to WHY
having wine was so vital, in Jewish culture, it was a legal necessity to
making oaths and entering into contracts. Had the couple run out of wine,
it would have not only been a faux paux -- it would have been a disaster,
possibly rendering the marriage illegitimate. Again, looking forward, we
find Jesus ending with sealing his own relationship to his followers with
wine...and further on, comparing that relationship to that of Bride and
Bridegroom.
It helps to keep in mind that the gospel was written after Christian theology
had begun to be set, and that the authors had that theology in mind when
they
wrote them -- these metaphors were likely consciously designed to remind
and
teach Christians of the tenets of their faith, similar to Jesus's use of
parable as teaching tools.
RM> Another one that has always puzzled me is connected with the loaves
RM> and fishes. If miracles are supposed to be convincing (if the
RM> motivation for performing them was to convince those present of the
RM> truth of His revelation) then what happened to the 5000 who were fed
by
RM> the 5 loaves and 2 fishes? They participated in a public miracle.
RM> Weren't they convinced? How come Christ had only a dozen or so
RM> followers when He was on the cross?
I've never seen much indication that the story says the crowd was AWARE
of
the miracle -- it was pointed toward the followers themselves who were not
confident of their ability to provide for the people. The point of the
story
is "You CAN provide for them, if you lean on Me." Similar themes run
throughout -- Peter's abortive attempt to walk on water, etc, etc. It is
a common thread not really speaking to the nonchristian, but to the Christian
who is busier saying "I can't do this" than he is in saying "Jesus, You
can
do this."
RM> It seems to me that almost every miracle related in the Bible carries
RM> some symbolic meaning, if one just looks at them the same way one
RM> would look at parables. This goes for the resurrection as much as
the
RM> raising of Lazarus.
:) Exactly.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 17 Mar 96 00:14:20
EID:481b 207101c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314b5de2
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63c73166
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Sue and J.J. were killing time yakking about FOF:
JH> On Mar 08 15:24 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
KW>> many of you have ever tasted a real fresh egg?). Yes, the
KW>> big
SA> I have. We used to have an eggman come in from the county
SA> every so often, hawking his eggs from door to door.
JH> I am the Walrus.
Ku-Ku-kah-chew!
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... And here's another clue for you all: The walrus was Paul
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Prewett's Christanic fantasies
|Date: 17 Mar 96 00:22:21
EID:4e41 207102c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314b5de3
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2590690a
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.j. and Fredric were killing time yakking about Prewett's Christanic fantasies:
jjh> He walked up to the gaurd shack and informed the MP's that Jesus
jjh> Christ didn't want him in the Corps. He handed them his ID and
jjh> started to walk out.
FR> Neat! I wonder if my father could have gotten out of the
FR> war by doing that, too! It sure beats putting on a dress.
And what evidence do you have the Prewett does not wear a dress?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "I don't cotton to those long-haired artsy types..." -- Forrester
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 17 Mar 96 00:26:30
EID:720c 20710340
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314b5de4
REPLY: 1:252/107 3149c2e9
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
All and Selena were killing time yakking about The end?:
SK> Hey all! Is anyone familiar with the predictions of M. Nostradamus?
SK> I have recently read that the world is supposed to end by nuclear war
SK> at the end of the year 1999. This seems to coincide with the bible,
SK> doesn't it? I am not very familiar with the bible. There are a few
SK> things that Nostradamus predicted that have already come true, so I
SK> guess the end is inevitable?
SK> What do you think?
I think you'd better rush out right now and stock up on canned goods and
bottled water -- beat the crowd who are too stupid to read this week's
issue of the Star! Hurry, now that you've gone and announced it EVERYONE
will
be running to the stores!
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... A nuclear war can ruin your whole day.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 16 Mar 96 22:47:00
EID:8d12 2070b5e0
PID: RA 2.02 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56e9e27e
REPLY: 3:711/933 31474b97
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
AG>123/1 43 67 305 318
AG>Dear Mark Craig,
AG>Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus
AG>Christ.
AG>It would appear that you are somewhat confused.
AG> MC> King David and his Luciferian Establishment elite, want to make
you
AG> MC> his slave and put you on their "global plantation."
AG>The only `King David' coming on the scene will be David's
AG>greater Son, the Lord Jesus, who will rule this earth during
AG>the Millennium and thereafter.
AG>During the Millennium it's Israel that is a nation. The
AG>saints of all ages
AG>and not thugs who claim to be either natural or Spiritual
AG>Israel today.
AG>The Luciferian establishment elite certainly are seeking to
AG>enslave us all
AG>in the new world order. Those who doubt this should read the
AG>Talmud. There
AG>are two other (related) groups seeking to achieve the same
AG>end - Communism and Romanism. Both Daniel and Jesus have told
AG>us Romanism will rule the so
AG>called New World Order, but they will have to reach a deal
AG>with the self- styled Jews in order to refinance the US
AG>dollar which will collapse, after Los Angeles and 1100x4-500
AG>miles of California sink beneath the Pacific at
AG>the end of the Gentile dispensation. Daniel and Jesus
AG>foretold this pact.
AG> MC> At the end of the 1000 years Satan will seduce the nations of the
AG> MC> world, prior to Armageddon -- rv.20:7-15.
AG>Oh no he will not. Armageddon occurs _before_ the
AG>Millennium, and destroys
AG>all life on earth. When Jesus Christ and the glorified
AG>saints return, they step out on the ashes of the wicked who
AG>are left without descent - `neither root or branch' (Malachi
AG>4:1-3; Matthew 3:12; Revelation 20:5).
AG>Satan will seduce the lost: _after_ the general resurrection,
AG>and after the White Throne Judgment. Then they are cast into
AG>the Lake of Fire.
AG>Kind regards,
Israel is now a State. The next event to occur is the end of the world,
not the millenium -- ez.38,39,40;jn.20:7-15.
---
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 15 Mar 96 15:28:00
EID:8d4e 206f7b80
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 258ec539
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89410E16
PID: FM 2.02
>-> On 03-12-96 19:43, Michael Hardy got back to Shelby Sherman
> MH> Goldberg are far more challenging. In fact, these are twitted because
> MH> they have proven to be no more consequential than buzzing flies --
to which the Lord God Dan replied:
> Trying yet again to come up with another one of your "analogies",
> Mikey? You know you haven't ever came up with one that holds
> water better than a chain link fence.
The __real__ reason Hardly won't twit the ilk of Leipzig or Goldberg is
that doing this would be a direct admission of defeat by intellectual superiors.
As none of the ones who ARE published as twitted have the high-visibility
credentials of either of our cigar afficionado Martins, Hardly is somewhat
safer in calling us names while plugging his "ears".
Never mind that the issue is STILL the fact that Hardly has been defeated
by his intellectual superiors! :-)
"I have NO educational credentials that I am willing to publically admit
to."
-- Fredric Rice, Charter Member, Mikey Hardly's Drooling Twits
> ... "Thread Dropped, discussion welcome." Michael "clueless" Hardy
Stercum minimum!!
slack -- s.
~!~ "Any heathen or honest theist is encouraged and requested to forward
this
to Michael Hardy. Let's say the secret word and be rid of him!"
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 15 Mar 96 15:33:01
EID:de7e 206f7c20
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 258ec53a
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 14390116
PID: FM 2.02
> JH> SW> ever here the tune Stairway to Heaven? of course you
> JH> SW> have-there's a lyric in there that says "sometimes all of
> JH> SW> our thoughts are misgiven."
> JH>
> JH> AT LAST! AT LAST!
> JH>
> JH> I've found someone who understands Led Zepplin lyrics!
> Maybe he'll explain the lyrics of Yes next.
The lyrics of Yes are perfectly easily understood!! [gdr]
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 15 Mar 96 15:53:02
EID:06bf 206f7ea0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 258ec53b
PID: FM 2.02
> KS> So why is it wrong in so many places?
> Well Hi Karl
> You must be mixed up with some other bible, because the King
> James bible is correct.
How do you know that the King James Bible is "correct"??
And is that WITH the Apocryphal Books included (the way it was in James'
own time) or AFTER the mid-19th century deletion of those books by the American
Bible Societies??
> You don't seem to want to tell me or others what you (think) is wrong
with
> the bible. Just that you feel it is wrong.
Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God....."
You have yet to provide the required direct evidence that there is such
a thing/person as "God". You have neither produced it for examination nor
shown any method for reaching reliable contact therewith which is operable
independently of observer psychological attitudes.
So there's just one place where the Bible is dead WRONG. Until suitable
direct evidence is produced for the existence of ANY "God", it REMAINS established
that there is no such thing outside of overactive human imaginations.
> You haven't even told me if you believe in Jesus or not!
No way, Jose. If your Jesus ever existed at all, he has NOT existed in
any way, shape, or form for nearly 2000 years now. And, as pointed out above,
his "Father God" has NEVER existed.
> Then you say that his word is wrong.
You got that right.
We haven't even gotten into:
* the RIDICULOUS claims made for the life lengths of the pre-Noachian
patriarchs and their ilk;
* The NUMEROUS problems with the Noachian Deluge, such as the 2-3 excess
hydrospheres of water required, the biological necessities of Noah's
alleged "ship", the ENGINEERING problems attendant (and the direct
CONTRADICTION of the claimed Biblical dimensions with the absolute
minimum space required for the undertaking in the real world);
* Rape, murder, carnage, and bloodshed repeatedly both glorified and
forbidden in the post-Egyptian history (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
Deuteronomy, Judges) and the Davidic Kingdom (Samuel through
Chronicles);
* The REPEATED treatment of females worse than agricultural livestock;
* the MANY inherent contradictions (a large table of these is an integral
part of the HolySmoke FAQ);
and, as they say on Madison Avenue, "many many more".
> Have you ever read the bible yourself?
Eighteen times straight through, Genesis to Revelation, INCLUDING the Apocryphal
Books.
> Please go a little further into your dislike of the bible
> and maybe I or someone else could help you understand it a little
> better.
I obviously understand it MUCH better than you do. You still believe. I
don't.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 128/203 1300 1 190 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 15 Mar 96 15:58:03
EID:06bf 206f7f40
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 258ec53c
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Brad Jackson <=-
> -> On 03-08-96 03:33, Brad Jackson got back to Kenneth Cavness
> BJ> The bible is true because God (Jesus Christ) said it is true!
> DC> Spin, 'lil' fundy, spin. You are making the Whirling Dervishes
> DC> look like statues.
> Hi Dan.
At least I am doing something. You on the other hand are doing
> nothing to prove your point.
Brad, Dan doesn't need to do ANYTHING to establish his point. He DENIES
the existence of your God. You CLAIM that said God exists.
YOU have the burden of evidence here -- ALL OF IT. Dan, being the denying
one, is ASSUMED correct until evidenced otherwise.
In other words, until a God is directly evidenced to exist, THERE IS NONE.
> Opps almost forgot to quote you some scripture.
That's right. Your membership in the Busted Shitpipe Guild depends on it.
> Will you Dan? Acts 2:38
Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:14:04
EID:73a6 206f81c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 258ec53d
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63a85b2c
PID: FM 2.02
> On Mar 11 04:14 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
> JH>> Banking is regulated by the Federal government. Credit
> JH>> Unions are a form of banking and will usually indicate that
> JH>> they are legitimate by including the word "Federal" in
> JH>> their name.
> JB> These are all true. But here in Charleston, one of the
> JB> requirements for membership in a 'Federal' credit union has
> JB> been a 'Federal' job. If you don't work for the government
> JB> in some capacity, you can't get an account.
> I hope someone more knowlgeable on the subject responds to this.
> It doesn't seem right, but I'm not interested in it enough to
> persue it any further.
BANKS are, to a limited extent, constrained by State and Federal Laws to
deal with all comers.
CREDIT UNIONS have (by law) a LIMITED pool of potential members. All members
of ANY Credit Union have SOME single factor, independent of the institution,
in common.
As the most common "factor in common" in most Credit Unions is employer,
this may be the explanation. Judith isn't a Federal employee herself, nor
is Leo; this means that she does NOT have the factor in common which qualifies
her for membership.
And the restrictions laid upon businesses aren't that unusual. In Colorado,
Credit Unions may NOT service businesses AT ALL -- only individuals.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Adolph Hitler tapdance lookalike
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:20:05
EID:7c27 206f8280
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 258ec53e
PID: FM 2.02
> JH> Your god is in a bottle?
> JH> You worship a genii?
> His god is in a bottle, and it's a spirit. I'm tempted to say
> Seagram's.
Try more like Jack Daniel's Green Label. (Rotgut Bourbon)
> But the subject was geniis (plural of genii, please?) .
> . . I hope he gets Mustafa or whatever his name was was from
> Aladdin. If he get's Barbara Eden, though, I'm switching to his
> religion pronto. No hard feelings, but Barb's always had a warm
> spot in my groi . . . er . . . heart, you know?
Stercum minimum!!
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
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PATH: 128/203 1300 1 190 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 2
|Date: 15 Mar 96 16:22:06
EID:8936 206f82c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 258ec53f
PID: FM 2.02
> BJ> (Still more here, but I'm tired of typing--will type next installment
> BJ> in tommorow's packet)
> BJ> Becke
> Uhm, Becke, forgive me for asking, but if you found this document
> on AOL, why are you typing it?
As I am discovering with the FAQ, even IF one captures a file to disk, there's
a considerable deal of typing (for editing) that needs to be done.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 128/203 1300 1 190 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 16 Mar 96 00:53:07
EID:793e 207006a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2600c746
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63bdbaf2
PID: FM 2.02
> SM> The fact remains: if you believe that an early Roman Imperial era
> SM> Jew named Jesus was the very Creator of the Universe, you owe the
> SM> Papacy the entirety of your religion (with possible exceptions
> SM> for certain Ethiopian Christians).
> You got me. I don't know wtf you're talking about.
I believe we were discussing Pre-Wett.
The mention was of the historical fact that, without the Roman Papacy's
actions over the majority of a millennium, Pre-Wet would have heard of neither
Bible nor Jesus -- except perhaps as part of the Quraan. ;-)
It is the fact to make Pre-Wet foam madly at the mouth, no??
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Mike Carr
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 16 Mar 96 01:12:08
EID:a441 20700980
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2600c748
REPLY: 1:284/120 6f0308c4
PID: FM 2.02
>-> "'God works in many ways his wonders to perform.' But He's not a
>-> skillful mechanic. A man drives over a cliff and 'by a miracle'
>-> he only breaks his back. It would be more divine if he were a
>-> better driver and stayed on the road." --- Paul Goodman
> Miracles have been very well documented by skeptics and physicians at
> Lourdes in France. A study of any one of those miracles certified there
> is very convincing. It becomes a question of evidence which is compelling
> enough to make prejudice against the possibility of miracles vanish.
> Why not miracles?
Why *NO* official miracles since the early 1950's is more of the question!!
It's been more than 40 years since *ANY* claimed Lourdes "healing" has even
met Roman Catholic Church standards for evidence of miracles -- and, at
least in theory, THEY believe in miracles!!
Why has there been no officially accepted miracle healing from Lourdes??
Because Catholic authorities there are no longer ignorant of science. They
can tell -- far oftener than their counterparts prior to the 20th Century
-- whether a cure was due to divine intervention or modern medicine. And
ALL examined claims since the early 1950's have found that medicine, not
miracles, were responsible.
> Twenty centuries of miracles linked together by a common source which
> is Christ demonstrates there widespread belief.
And beLIEf is all that is demonstrated, ever.
> The least we could expect from a
> creator God would be miracles that demonstrate His power (not His existence)
> and remind us of His presence. They would also certify any revelation
> given. A miracle at Lourdes Madame Bire became blind in February 1908.
> Medical exam showed blindness was due to atrophy of the papilla; in other
> words, the optic nerve was withered at the point where it enters the eye.
> Obviously, there was organic reason for her blindness. No one can see
with
> such a condition. On August 5, 1908 Madame Bire received Holy Communion
at
> the Grotto at Lourdes. At 10:15 a.m., the priest who was carrying the
> Blessed Sacrament in procession passed beside her. Madame Bire at once
saw
> the statue of the Blessed Virgin. She was taken at once to the permanent
> Medical Bureau at Lourdes where doctors are always available. Atheistic
> Doctors are welcome to examine cases to their hearts content (one such
was
> the famous Dr. Alexis Carrel, who came to scoff, but left a convert).
A Dr.
> Lainey, an oculist, examined her. What he found was even more astonishing
> than a miraculous cure: She could read even the smallest letters of
a
> newspaper, but the OPTIC NERVE WAS STILL WITHERED! After a month, another
> eye examination by three specialists found that the nerve had been restored.
Why did such reports as this essentially cease coming out after World War
I, Mike?? Why do you have to dredge all the way back to 1908 to find a
report??
WHY has there been NO recognized miracles since the early 1950's, Mike??
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: 20 MOST DISGUSTING CAREERS
|Date: 16 Mar 96 01:22:09
EID:6edf 20700ac0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2600c749
PID: FM 2.02
> On 12 Mar 96 07:16am, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to BECKE JONES:
> SM>> 20- Porn directors who dress up children to look like lawyers.
> BJ>> 21- Television evangelists
> JB> 22- Television evangelists who are also lawyers.
> 23- Television evangelists who are politicians.
24- Campaign Lawyers for television evangelist politicians
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:19:00
EID:7dd3 20718a60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3e999e08
BJ>Undoubtedly, not as much as _I've_ missed being away for nearly a year!!
BJ>It's good to be back...=)
Hi, Becke, welcome back. How's the new city (if I remember you dropped
out originally because you were moving)?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Go forth and hassle all nations."
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:19:00
EID:283b 20718a60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e3e0bff4
MH>The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of
MH>non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my
MH>way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at least
MH>one month, possibly longer.
Whoop-de-do .
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Good morning" is an opinion, not greeting.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: churches
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:19:00
EID:923c 20718a60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org fe992555
AS> True. Even my new BBS, I noticed at least one day when there were no
AS> messages, an impossibility in Holy Smoke, so I conclude that it is my
BBS.
AS> So probably some people are ticked that I haven't answered them yet.
If so, you aren't the only one in that boat. It seems to be a major
FIDO burp...for the last several weeks I've been lucky if I've seen 200
posts a day.
AS> KW> How are the boys handling things? I would assume that they are
upset
AS> KW> for the disruption in their lives, if nothing else.
AS> Well, ACTUALLY, since I live in largish apartments, they moved us to
AS> another apartment that they were just cleaning after someone moved out
AS> laid out exactly like the old one. I'm not sure how much Jamie and Eric
AS> understood of what was going on...we ended up replacing their furniture
AS> because it smelled too much like smoke, but since the place is pretty
much
AS> laid out like the old one, even though they know they're in a different
AS> place, it's not as disorienting as it could be. Brian, the speaking
one,
AS> is doing fine, and really he's the hero of the hour, because he's the
one
AS> who spotted the smoke, who told the neighbor to dial 911, etc. I think
AS> they are pretty well acclimated. There were not a lot of sleepless nights
AS> for them, or anything.
How proud you must be of him. The gift of a cool head in an emergency
is a valuable one. I'm gladdened to hear that your boys came through
this with so little emotional trauma. How are you doing on that score?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Goooooooooooood Morning Vietnam." - A Cronaur
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: hi
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:19:00
EID:abbf 20718a60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a5257dc8
AS> AS> JH> Sorry, but if the Emperor is walking down the street buckass
AS> AS> JH> naked, I reserve the right to giggle.
AS> AS> KW> Or stare in awe. It depends on the Emperor.
AS> AS> And the size of his sceptre, perhaps?
AS> KW> Not to mention his orbs ;).
AS> Hmmm...all the sudden to be "screwed royally" is more than just an
AS> expression...
Truly, if he is a man to be looked up to. On the other hand,
we can join J.J. giggling if he is a 'royal fuck up'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "I asked what you knew, not what you believed." - MacLeod
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Question
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:19:00
EID:cbdc 20718a60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 03b2537b
AS> MH> I'm not Oriental, but I am sometimes disoriented. Does that count?
:)
AS> I guess so. I don't qualify...I lost some stuff in a fire by accident,
AS> which would make me an Accidental, not an Oriental.
Al, are you trying to smoke out the punsters again?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "I think not," said Descartes -- and promptly disappeared
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:19:00
EID:0b49 20718a60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 662f5cc7
SA>A lone voice in the wilderness, Katherine mournfully howled out "FOF"
SA> KW> many of you have ever tasted a real fresh egg?). Yes, the big
SA>I have. We used to have an eggman come in from the county every
SA>so often, hawking his eggs from door to door. Sizes were
SA>variable, but hey - they were the best-tasting eggs I've ever had.
SA>He must've had an army of free-rangers to supplement income from
SA>corn or soy or tomatoes or something, since this area isn't a big
SA>animal-agro region. Whatever the reason, though, his eggs were
SA>even cheaper than mass-marketed eggs. You could get a tray of 24
SA>for a couple of bucks, whereas a dozen costs anywhere from 99
SA>cents for the little-bitty eggs to $1.45 for jumbos at the
SA>stupourmarkets.
Emma charges a dollar a dozen. And these are worth it, although the egg
prices here run about 20 cents cheaper. My daughter is fascinated by
the variety of colors, too. She likes to take her time choosing just
which egg I am to cook for her breakfast.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Is that seat saved?" "No, but we're praying for it."
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Re: Life In Our Anti-Christian America (1/7)
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:50:01
EID:2e4e 20708e40
> I would like the URL so that I can add the original to the unofficial
HS
> web site. You can either post it here or email it to me at the address
> below:
and, while you're at it, WHERE is the 'unofficial HS web site'?
thanks.
TTFN.
Chris
[recently Interneted at cbaker84@digital.net]
--- DB B2300sl/001027
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: Propaganda vs. Education
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:51:08
EID:cb3e 20708e60
> CHRISTIAN EDUCATION VERSUS CHRISTIAN PROPAGANDA
the difference? the first is an oxymoron of the first order and the second
is all there is.
the former is wishful thinking and window-dressing for the same tripe as
the latter and thus falls right into the latter category. nice circle, after
all. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2300sl/001027
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 17 Mar 96 12:25:00
EID:81ff 20716320
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63e1b460
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314b21d3
On Mar 16 15:17 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
PS>>When something unexplainable happened in ancient times, it
PS>>was usually attributed to the work of a god--that's the
PS>>trait of a primitive mind.
I'm not at all so sure that it's a "primitive" function. It looks
like the discovery of abstraction to me. Sometimes details simply
aren't important or relative to the case at hand. Attributing
certain unexplained functions to a "god" or a "black box" (or the
"cloud" often seen in network diagrams) can simply be a means of
placeing bounds on the unknown.
When an ancient told someone "The River Gods will destroy you if you
camp by the river." what he may have really meant was: "Look,
asshole, no one knows why the river floods. No one even cares WHY.
It just does. I'm telling you for the fifth and last time today that
if you build your hut down there your ass is going to get washed
away."
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Come Together
|Date: 17 Mar 96 15:13:15
EID:dde4 207179a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63e322d8
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 143cb09f
On Mar 16 18:10 96, Rob Burcham of 1:280/76 wrote:
gs> Here come ol' flat top
gs> He come groovin' up slowly
gs> He got Joo Joo eyeball
gs> He one holy roller
gs> Anyways, I suddenly found this song to be prophetic and to
gs> have deep meanings. I am pretty sure of who ole flat top is.
RB> ROFL! I think we should use this opportunity to refer
RB> to Jesus as 'ol flat top' (at least for a week or two).
Second the motion.
I also think we should refer to Christians as Flattopians.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Prewett's Christanic fantasies
|Date: 17 Mar 96 15:19:46
EID:f0a3 20717a60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63e33322
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2590690a
On Mar 15 16:35 96, Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoNet wrote:
jjh>> He walked up to the gaurd shack and informed the MP's that
jjh>> Jesus Christ didn't want him in the Corps. He handed them
jjh>> his ID and started to walk out.
FR> Neat! I wonder if my father could have gotten
FR> out of the war by doing that, too! It sure beats putting
FR> on a dress.
Yeah, and you could have grown up in sunny, tropical Alaska
instead of Buttfuck, Nevada.
But you would have probably ended up as a Mac user.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 18 Mar 96 01:15:24
EID:8be2 207209e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63e8aa02
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3144edcc
On Mar 12 01:41 96, Lynda Bustilloz of 1:109/601 wrote:
DK>>. I suppose in the next few days I'll see 2,000
DK>>questions from lurkers like Dan Ceppa and J.j. Hitt wanting
DK>>to know who my SOURCES are and
LB> Lurkers? Dan Ceppa and J.J. Hitt?? LURKERS?!?!? What echo
LB> are YOU on?
I can't help but wonder if that was the "rude remark" she recently
appologized to me for.
I may be the fifth most active user here (with God Dan being the
most active), but certainly isn't how I measure my self-worth.
After all, I'd be in sixth place if Al Schroeder hadn't caught
on fire.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] WHAT??
|Date: 18 Mar 96 01:24:48
EID:3fcf 20720b00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63e8c4a5
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3144edd3
On Mar 12 03:21 96, Lynda Bustilloz of 1:109/601 wrote:
LB> And one of the BEST things that is happening to NASA is
LB> that it is slowly coming out of it's need to COMPETE with
LB> other countries' space programs -- we are beginning to
LB> realize that what Mir learns is good for us -- and sharing
LB> what we know is good for us, too.
It took them FOREVER to learn that lesson though...
Take the SpacePotty for the probably-never-to-be-built Space
Station. The Soviets had a tried and tested zero-gravity
toilet they were willing to sell us at $36,000 per pre-assembled
unit.
NASA said "no" and promptly pissed away 25 MILLION dollars designing
a toilet of their own. (For 25 million dollars they could have
bought 690 of the Soviet units and still have enough money left
over for toilet paper.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Alien Propulsion
|Date: 18 Mar 96 03:48:02
EID:b451 20721e00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ea0c52
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 14bcb9e0
On Mar 17 03:21 96, Ryan Shaw of 1:152/67 wrote:
RS> Recently released transcripts from abductees mention that
RS> the Greys have developed a taste for convenience store
RS> burritos. This can easily be verified by paying a visit to
RS> your local stop-n- rob in the wee hours of the morning when
RS> an alien would visit, and speak to the clerk. The glazed
RS> look and vacant stare is a sure sign of large amounts of
RS> missing time.
Yup... I saw this one and saved it.
It's still sitting on my hard disk waiting for the return of
George Mooth.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Come Together [2]
|Date: 18 Mar 96 03:52:27
EID:470f 20721e80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ea1637
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 9d27f427
On Mar 16 12:46 96, John Brawley of 1:100/435.1 wrote:
JB> Ok, then it's "he [the race, mankind] got [has, as in is
JB> possessed of] walrus [direct ref. to the Beatles
JB> themselves] gum-boot [walking equipment]. It's in this
JB> case symbolically to mean the Beatles themselves, acting as
JB> the material representatives of whatever the Force was that
JB> used their foursome as a divine communications channel.
You missed your calling.
You should have been a political speech writer.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 18 Mar 96 03:57:24
EID:09f5 20721f20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ea39d9
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 258ec53d
On Mar 15 16:14 96, Sean McCullough of 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org wrote:
>> JB> But here in Charleston, one of the requirements for
>> JB> membership in a 'Federal' credit union has been a 'Federal'
>> JB> job.
This is the actual point being questioned.
More specifically, whether one has to be a Federal employee
to be a customer of the "Sacred Heart Federal Credit Union".
I'm inclined to doubt it, thinking that the use of the word
"Federal" refers to the credit union's regulation and insurance
protection.
The even bigger question is whether there is a Church and State
issue here. I get the impression that Judith thinks that one does
exist. This I doubt strongly.
I may end up having to call the place to find out.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: This is not a test.
|Date: 18 Mar 96 04:22:40
EID:2dd4 207222c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ea6061
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 268ce549
On Mar 16 12:47 96, Jim Germiquet of 1:2424/1004 wrote:
BK>> So, do you have any evidence that your god exists outside
BK>> imagination?
JG> No more than I have evidence that you exist outside imagination.
Post your home address and the times when you can be expected
to be found there.
I want to come over and kick your ass.
Seeing how I'm just a product of your imagination, you shouldn't
have anything to worry about.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Pop goes the bubble.
|Date: 18 Mar 96 04:28:14
EID:8d7e 20722380
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ea704e
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 268ce54b
On Mar 16 12:47 96, Jim Germiquet of 1:2424/1004 wrote:
First you demonstrate the following attitude towards women:
JG> A good example would be that of a wife who trusts her husband
JG> enough to give him the final say in family affairs. She believes
JG> that whatever decision he makes will be in the best interests
JG> of all concerned.
JG> Many women no longer feel that way. They feel it is belittling
JG> to trust their husbands enough to willingly submit to his
JG> decision.
And then you let this slip:
JG> I like to think of my own current relationship in the way
JG> you state above. That god knew what I would need many years
JG> ago and had prepared my fiance at the time of her birth to
JG> grow up in such a way as to meet my need the day I met her.
So you're getting married to a woman whom you think is a custom
made mindless robot expressly built to meet your needs.
Are you ever in for a big fucking suprise.
You're an idiot, Germy. A big fucking idiot.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 17 Mar 96 05:57:00
EID:b2d5 20712f20
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Judith Bandsma <=-
AS> Speaking of half-and-half...look at the latest issue of LIFE. In it
AS> is a story of a little girl...or two little girls, really--who have
Don't have to. They were on Good Morning America last week. From what their
parents said, separation would kill them both, not just one.
Cute kids.
... Therapy is good, but screaming obsceneties is cheaper.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: (2/2)YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 17 Mar 96 06:06:00
EID:f10f 207130c0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Jim Germiquet <=-
AS> You have an excellent point in that, for many previous generations
AS> would regard with horror and disgust what is done routinely
AS> (abortions) and talk about assisted suicides and euthenasia. (Whether
You mean like the generations that sold their children or exposed them on
a hillside when they were unwanted? Same with their elderly. Or beat them
(either end of the age spectrum) to death with impunity? Or starved them?
Yep, they'd be horrified alright.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 17 Mar 96 06:18:00
EID:0bb4 20713240
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> If Haystack ever tripped and fell on her, she really would have
DC> been crushed! Just how big was that guy?
BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG!!!! Built like a brick shithouse...a 3-holer.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 17 Mar 96 06:36:00
EID:59db 20713480
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Oh yes please tell me of the amazon armies of egyptian or roman women
JG> soldiers. Tell me how women of those times were feared by the men.
PS> Believe what you like. How much longer are you going to live at
PS> variance to reality?
I guess he hasn't read much about the warrior queens of history, has he?
Boadicea comes to mind quite handily. Hey, even Elinor of Aquitane led
a couple of battles.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 17 Mar 96 10:59:25
EID:d873 20715760
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b1584619
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3149a95e
On (15 Mar 96) Don Martin wrote to Rob Burcham...
DM> A point about beaming people up: "storing the
DM> information describing the identity and location of every
DM> particle in a human being would require 10^28 kilobytes of
DM> memory. In comparison, the information in every book every
DM> written would take up only 10^12 kilobytes."
Yeah, but he's a physicist. What does he know about data
compression?
... Belief is acceptance without question. Thinking requires effort.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Mar 96 11:03:45
EID:c586 20715860
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 25ad06f6
On (14 Mar 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Michael Hardy...
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Al Schroeder <=-
MH> But see Al, Marilyn insists that everyone should be free to worship
MH> whatever god they please, and the real God should just shut up and
MH> let it go on. It seems to me that the only way a person can believe
MH> that all beliefs are equal is to have no beliefs of his or her own.
JB> You mean Jim Staal has been posting under your name all this time?
JB> The REAL GOD should make sure nobody is allowed to worship any other
JB> god? So which one is the REAL god and HOW DO YOU KNOW?
JB> You need to put yourself in your twit filter.
Mikey obviously has a very firm grasp of the meaning of Free Will,
Jehovah Style.
... "Evolution: The fossils say no!"- Gish; "Gish is an idiot" -fossils.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Mar 96 11:14:29
EID:f7b6 207159c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 0169082b
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3148d15c
On (15 Mar 96) David Worrell wrote to Michael Hardy...
DW> 11 Mar 96 19:26, Michael Hardy wrote to Al Schroeder:
MH> If God does nothing about evil, they whine "How could a loving God
MH> let these people sacrifice children?" If God does do something about
MH> it, they whine "How could a loving God wipe out those people just for
MH> worshiping the 'wrong' god?"
DW> So God can only deal with evil by having his lackeys slaughter the
DW> people doing evil? What happened to that omnipotent bit, Mikey?
DW> Would someone please forward this to Hardly? Thanks.
Mikey's reading comprehension problem is acting up again. We don't
whine when he does nothing about evil. We whine when he chooses to
only address the problem of earthly evil when it affects who people
worship, ignoring all the evil that causes US untold suffering in
the meantime.
... When your IQ rises to 28, sell.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: For your info...
|Date: 17 Mar 96 11:16:13
EID:01aa 20715a00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7fe29f84
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3148d2d6
On (15 Mar 96) David Worrell wrote to Anonymous...
DW> 12 Mar 96 21:00, Anonymous wrote to Michael Hardy:
A> ======================================================================
A> == Forwarded here by Marilyn Burge (1:105/40.666)
A> ======================================================================
A> Would someone *not* in Mikey's twit filter please forward this to him?
A> Thanks.
DW> Thanks, Marilyn. BTW, you weren't being very anonymous. :)
So? I don't mind him knowing. I just don't want him ignoring
the message because my name is in the header.
It's more fun to bug somebody if they know you are, after all.
... Bigotry: Italian Redwood
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Heavenly Father
|Date: 17 Mar 96 11:26:43
EID:6fa1 20715b40
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c345f2af
On (15 Mar 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Anthony Grigor-scott...
BJ> AG>Dear Brother Brad,
BJ> AG>Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AG> BJ> He is the first and the last, and besides him there is no God.
BJ> AG>Amen, there is only one God, not three.
BJ> Hello Anthony.
BJ> It is good to see another Christian in this echo, (religious
BJ> debate). Mind you I don't know why they call this area religious
BJ> debate! We both know that there is only one God (Jesus Christ) so
BJ> there isn't much to debate about.
BJ> I hope these people don't get you upset with their messages!
BJ> I have noticed that if you tell the truth and quote the truth
BJ> from the Bible they all fall by the way side. I started out
BJ> here getting between 10 to 20 messages a day. But as soon as
BJ> they realized I was not afraid of them and that God's word
BJ> stands the test of time they quit posting me.
If you think that's why you don't get any more messages, you're
seriously deluded. You don't get messages because we dislike
being preached at. If you can't get around to a conversational
style and get off your pulpit, you'll keep living your your
dreamworld regarding your lack of mail.
You see they
BJ> really don't have anything to say and they don't stand up for
BJ> anything. God's words are true today as they were when they
BJ> were first taught.
That's garbage! Many of us have torn the Bible apart verse-by
verse, and would gladly do so again. It's full of crap, and
we have amply demonstrated it is. Live in your dreamworld,
fundy.
I hope young people will see that God will
BJ> be with you always no matter where you may go to spread the
BJ> word of the gospel. Be true onto him and he will never leave
BJ> you or forsake you! Heb 13:5 (KJV)
BJ> Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content
BJ> with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never
BJ> leave thee, nor forsake thee.
BJ> Heb 13:8 (KJV) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day,
BJ> and for ever.
BJ> Hold true to God's word Anthony. Brad
I hope you realize you've given words of encouragement to the
biggest anti-semite to come down the pike since olf Adolph
Hitler himself. Nice company you keep.
BJ> þ CMPQwk #1.42þ UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
When you do plan to quit stealing other people's intellectual
property?
... Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Hitler
|Date: 17 Mar 96 11:43:28
EID:426f 20715d60
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c10f7cd8
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 314aa903
On (16 Mar 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Michael Hardy...
LB> Marilyn and Michael were killing time yakking about Hitler:
MB> Or, another possibility is that old Do-As-I-Say-And-Not-As-I-So
MB> Jehovah has forgiven himself, but does not see fit to forgive mere
MB> mortals for doing the same thing.
MH> Or maybe Jehovah, as creator and judge of all mankind, has the right
MH> to destroy people who sacrifice their own children to false gods.
MH> Nah, that would be too simple an answer.
LB> It is, when you consider humanity being referred to as "Children on
LB> God".
You got that one right.
Incidentally: I've found the Episcopal stuff you directed me to.
There's one address you gave me that, when I click on the hypertext
stuff, always returns the message "FORBIDDEN." I've never seen
that one before. Maybe they think I'm a spy.
I've downloaded a bunch of articles Spong wrote for the VOICE,
and will read them offline. I really enjoy his work.
Thanks for your help.
... "Taglines: Your last chance to really piss off the other guy!"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: All
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose One
|Date: 17 Mar 96 13:22:11
EID:0b09 20716ac0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c2534537
On January 18, 1996, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission
issued a finding of Probable Cause in the case of Margaret Downey-Schottmiller
v. Chester County Council of the Boy Scouts of America.
Margaret LDowney, an AHA board member, had filed a complaint with the commission
on behalf of herself and her son, Matthew, alleging unlawful discrimination
by the BSA, which had refused to permit her to become an adult volunteer
and her son to become a Boy Scout because they would not declar a belief
in God. The Boy Scouts of America, in turn, denied the unlawful discrimination,
asserting that membership in the BSA is "not an accommodation, advantage,
or privilege of a public accommodation" and that "the Boy Scouts are distinctly
private within the meaning of the act; that all persons seeking youth or
adult membership must agree to observe the Scout Oath and Scout Law," which
includes reference to God.
Pursuant to its federal charter and bylaws, the Boy Scouts of America is
mandated to makescouting available to all boys who meet entrance age requirements
irrespective of race, religion, or ethnic origin. However, in August 1992,
the BSA told Margaret LDowney and her son that it required them to "acknowledge
the existence of God as a condition of becoming a Boy Scout or an adult
volunteer." Because of this stance, the commission concluded:
Probable cause exists to credit the Complainant
allegations that both she and her minor son were
unalwfully discriminated against, in violation of
Section 6(i) of the Pennsylvania Human Relations
Act, because of religious creed when Respondent
[the BSA] advised the Complainant that belief in
the existence of God was a requirement to obtain
the accommodations, advantages, facilities, and/or
privileges offered to Boy Scouts and adult
membership volunteers.
the Commission then ordered the BSA to immediately advice Downey and her
son of their right to apply for membership at the appropriate levels, to
notify all administrative personnel and volunteers in writing that "individuals
who are unwilling or unable to acknowledge a belief in God for religious
reasons may nontheless apply for and be accepted as scouts and/or volunteers";
and to post and exhibit prominently the commission's public accommodations
fair practices poster, advising people of the rights guaranteed under the
Pennsylvania Human Rights Act.
A meeting is scheduled for February 29, 1996, between Downey and the Boy
Scouts to discuss these terms and conditions. The important precedent established
by the commission's decision is its rejection of the BSA's assertion of
their "private" nature -- the rejection based upon the BSA's own statement
of purpose and the nature of its actual recruiting and membership policies.
Hopefully, this decision will influence other cases pending elsewhere.
Source: Free Mind, Volumn XXXIX, Number 2, March/April 1996 (membership
newsletter of the American Humanist Association).
... Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Who's who...
|Date: 17 Mar 96 01:24:19
EID:3297 20710b00
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314c89ca
REPLY: 1:228/87 56e54648
-=> Quoting Lon S. Mabon to Al Schroeder <=-
> Jim. Enough games.
LSM> C,mon, Al. Let's lighten up a bit, eh Al? Just a little joke....
LSM>
LSM> Goodbye!
Hey, Jim...how many minutes will you stay away this time??
Sue
... "Get a mitt! Catch a clue!"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Looking Foolish... (EVOLUTION)
|Date: 17 Mar 96 01:45:32
EID:cc37 20710da0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314c89cb
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63ba9cc5
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> However, I did not see any responses to questions asked of
SA> you months ago, and the message I initially responded to was
SA> the first one from you in a long time. Leaving with
SA> unanswered questions indicates some sort of disappearance,
SA> whether figurative or literal.
MG> Billy is a coward and a fool. He first showed up here claiming that
MG> Carl Sagan was a creationist.
Yeah, I remember that (I was lurking at the time). I have seen him
do at least two sessions of "let's hide for awhile and maybe they will
not remember me when I get back". Well, we do remember. I am actually
surprised that he has come up with some evidence that he has been in
Madison, WI. Considering how he bungled the list of places where he has
"worked" and his lack of understanding of science, I thought for sure he
would drop out of sight again...
MG> To wit....
BW> Okay where do you want me to start? How about with Carl
BW> Sagan? In his book Cosmos, he candidly admits "The fossil
BW> evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
BW> Designer."
HP> Carl goes on to say that it would have to be an idiotic "great
HP> designer" and that there's a better explanation -- natural
HP> selection -- that matches the facts better.
BW>Oh really?
I quoted this from your post...it is worth reminding people of once
again.
MG> Hec caught him lying and ever since, Billy has tried to squirm out
MG> of it. He has nothing to contribute, as far as I am concered until
MG> he owns up tot he fact that his initial post here was a lie.
I agree that he has nothing to contribute, but I wanted to try to
make him squirm a little if I could.
Sue
... "Awright, hold it...where's the mutant repellant?" -Bloom County
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Posting
|Date: 16 Mar 96 19:39:00
EID:4883 20709ce0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434381
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Yeah. There's a few new names in the echo here lately, but no sign
that
MH> they're going to be any more open than the old names. At least not
yet.
RB> Is 'openness' a one way street? Should theists be open to
RB> the possibility of a natural universe?
Sure. What galls me is that we're derided as "ignorant fundies" for
questioning such things as evolution, yet many atheists hold to
evolution -- specifically, naturalistic evolution -- with a fundy-like
fervor even though the facts fall far short of substantiating it, and
they don't see that as equally closed-minded.
... First a Swede, reincarnated as a Norweigian: Yep, I'm Bjorn again.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Drool game
|Date: 16 Mar 96 19:41:00
EID:659f 20709d20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I defend my faith quite well. But I find no one here with a truly
MH>open mind toward it. You completely misunderstand, John -- I simply
MH>don't care a whit what people think of me, or my beliefs. If there
MH>were atheists here that I respected, then I'd be hurt that none of
MH>them are open. The vast majority, though, are semi-literate boors
MH>who have little to say beyond mindless slurs and insults. In two
MH>years I've encountered maybe five who were capable of discussing
MH>Christianity intelligently.
KDM> Are you trying to get flamed?
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. I really don't care anymore.
People may say to me whatever they want to, and when I get bored
enough, I'll just quit.
... This score just in: Deep Space 9, Babylon 5.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Hardy
|Date: 16 Mar 96 19:42:00
EID:1bb6 20709d40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> MH> John Prewett had said something along these same lines. I quoted
MH> MH>this, expecting him to offer his hearty agreement and adulation
MH> MH>of the author -- who I then would reveal is a Catholic
MH> MH>polemcist.
MH> KDM> Ah. OK, thank you. I take the earlier comment back.
MH>
MH> Knowing me as you do, I'm kind of disappointed you made the earlier
MH> comment, without at least giving me a chance to explain first.
KDM> Errrr . . . I thought I did. Fido must have eaten that one.
Well, consider the whole thing finished and forgotten.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Notices
|Date: 16 Mar 96 19:43:00
EID:8388 20709d60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434384
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KDM> They may not have noticed Jesus himself, but they would have
MH> KDM> noticed things like his tomb being open, and, later on, the
MH> KDM> ability of certain people to speak in tongues.
MH>
MH> Why do you assume they didn't? In fact, there were a number of
MH> anti-Christian writings that attempted to explain away the empty
MH>tomb. None denied that the tomb was empty, which seems to be the
MH>first line of defense, if in fact it was true.
KDM> True; a bad example. I obviously need to do some research on Biblical
KDM> history. But is there anything on people speaking in tongues? A
KDM> missing body is fairly easy to fake; the ability to speak any language
KDM> less so.
Not that I'm aware of. But so far as the Bible records, the disciples
only exhibited the ability to speak other languages once, when the
Spirit fell upon Peter as he preached the resurrection. You can't make
too much out of the lack of extra-Biblical substantiation, since it is
only said to have happened once.
As for speaking in non-human tongues, again, I don't know what
non-Biblical records exist, but that clearly happened, as many
Christians still do it today.
Now, as for faking the missing body -- in what way could that be done
under the circumstances -- high profile case, guarded tomb, etc. --
that would explain the disciples' later fervor and dedication to the
point of martyrdom?
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Chris Campbell
|Sub: records
|Date: 16 Mar 96 19:51:00
EID:d070 20709e60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434385
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Chris Campbell to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KDM> Then why are there no records saying this?
MH> Huh? What do you think the New Testament is? That it exists at all
MH> attests to this fact.
CC> The New Testament is a collection of books, the earliest of which
CC> was written 60 years at best after the fact. So, tell me about FDR.
Sorry, but the evidence is strong that most or all of the NT was
written within 30 years of Jesus's resurrection, and much of it even
sooner than that. I've studied this matter for ten years, examining
arguments for several alternatives, and the case is strong for dating
all four gospels, Acts, all of Paul's epistles and both of Peter's
before AD 70.
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 16 Mar 96 19:55:00
EID:0fc5 20709ee0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434386
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Jesse Jones to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin.
JJ> Why does *that* sound familiar?
MH>I've finally set up a twit filter, something I resisted for two years
MH>because I tried to believe that anyone could have something
MH>worthwhile to say once in a while.
JJ> I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so, Michael. :-)
You did. And I shoulda listened. :)
MH>I decided I'd rather spend one hour a night having interesting
MH>exchanges than three hours a night wading through drool to get the
MH>occasional worthwhile questions.
JJ> Maybe we should get a life?
I've got one, but perhaps I should spend more of it reading than trying
to educate the incorrigible.
MH>And I observed that the bulk of the
MH>drool was coming consistently from the same few people.
JJ> Sort of like wealth and politics.
MH>The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
MH>David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David
MH>Worrell.
JJ> Excellent choices.
Thank you. I know my twits, and my twits know me. :)
MH>The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of
MH>non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my
MH>way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at
MH>least one month, possibly longer.
MH>No clues, though. The person in question was picked at random, with
MH>all names in the running except for Boni Hitch and Pam Gray, who
MH>don't seem to be in the loop. Could be anyone, other than them or the
MH>charter twits.
JJ> Wait a minute? Was I in the pool? :-)
The drool pool? Actually no, because I don't see you here often enough
anymore to count you as a regular.
... Hester Prynne got an A for adultery. I barely made a C-minus.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ma teresa
|Date: 16 Mar 96 19:58:00
EID:0e5d 20709f40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434387
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>> sinned and come short of the glory of God," even Mother
MG>> So, are they saying that MT is not a true christian?
MH> You are just bound and determined not to ever get it, aren't
MH> you? Come on, Martin, this sort of idiocy is beneath you.
MH> This is more Worrell's speed.
MG> It's a simple question. Your post indicated that MT was at fault in
MG> many ways, indicating tht she put her own personal comfort above those
MG> that she is pledged to serve. It shows me that one groups of xtians
MG> does nto consider her a true xtian. For wahtever reason. The point
MG> here is that if you asked her, she would indicate that she was indeed
a
MG> true christian.
MG> Who am I to believe?
Martin, come on, this is simple. The point was merely that she is
flawed, like all of us. The criticism was not of her, really, so much
as of those people who think she's almost perfect, without common human
failings and lapses in judgment.
NOTHING that I quoted or paraphrased from the article should have led
you to regurgitate the "true Christian" stupidity.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: who wrote it
|Date: 16 Mar 96 20:00:00
EID:6f05 2070a000
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434388
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Actually, that's not true at all. No one can prove the case
MH> either way, but the only Gospel that we *know* was not
MH> written by an eyewitness is Luke's, because he said as much.
MH> But Luke was a close friend of Peter, and of Jesus's brother
MH> James, so his information is, at worst, second-hand from a
MH> close associate and a relative.
MG> I have to take your arguement on face value as, like I said before,
I
MG> am no bible scholar. There is enough strange stuff in the book without
MG> this particular passage such as:
MG> 1. virgin birth
MG> 2. Ressurection.
MG> 3. Water to wine
MG> 4. Healing of the lame
Yet why should you write that off as impossible? IF a God exists, all
of it is quite possible. To dismiss it as impossible is to make
unwarranted assumptions.
This is why trying to deal with atheists on the evidence question is so
frustrating. Most of you are so certain you're right that you dismiss
the evidence, because you've already made up your mind that the
conclusion is wrong.
You think it's impossible for Jesus to rise from the dead because
you've already decided there's no God capable of causing Jesus to rise
from the dead.
Wouldn't it be more sensible to examine the evidence to see if Jesus
did rise from the dead, and THEN approach the question of God's
existence? If you've already written off the conclusion, you have no
choice but to deny the evidence. If you approach the evidence with your
mind open regarding the conclusion, you might surprise yourself. (And
the rest of us.)
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 16 Mar 96 20:04:00
EID:b559 2070a080
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89434389
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I believe atheists may well choose standards to live by. But I
MH> also believe they have no reason to, other than their own
MH> comfort and satisfaction. If an atheist wants to be giving
MH> and generous, there's no reason he can't. But if he wants to
MH> be selfish and dishonest, there's no reason he shouldn't.
MH> You may disagree with his decisions, but there is no higher
MH> standard to judge him by.
MG> Then why are selfish and dishonest persons in chruch every Sunday?
MG> Are they atheists?
This is bloody pointless.
... Pull the other one.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: elvis lution
|Date: 16 Mar 96 20:05:00
EID:c302 2070a0a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8943438A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Because I want whatever I believe to be the truth. If evolution
MH> really is well-supported by physical evidence, then I'll
MH> believe it. If it isn't, then questioning it is valid.
MG> The evidence has been presented here many times. Evolution, like
MG> gravity, is a fact.
No, it is not. It is a theory to explain facts, facts that can also be
explained by special creation. It is the preferred theory for people of
a certain mindset, because they don't want a pesky deity getting in the
way of their lifestyles. It is a necessary theory for people of another
mindset, because their definition of science is that it must be
strictly natural -- an artificial stipulation which locks God out of
the picture, not based on any reason, but merely on a philosophical
worldview.
What we know for certain is that some lifeforms exist, and others
existed in the past but no longer. All else is theory, whether
naturalistic evolution, theistic evolution, progressive creation or
special creation.
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ev'dence
|Date: 16 Mar 96 20:09:00
EID:66b3 2070a120
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8943438B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MG>> how "god is a spirit and there's not physical evidence et
MG>> al." REal things leave real evidence. Physical evidence.
MH> Real *physical* things leave physical evidence. Why would a
MH> spirit leave physical evidence? (I'm momentarily accepting
MH> your assertion that there is none, although I don't really
MH> think that's true.)
MG> Just so. Why would something that is not real leave a real bit of
MG> evidence. The claim of spirituality is a ploy. You are talking about
MG> a god that you claim created the universe and sent a man to earth to
MG> act as his son and the saviour of humamn kind. It sounds as if you've
MG> put him pretty much amoung the corporeal things here.
MH> Then you obviously are locked into your own dogma, that "real"
MH> things leave physical evidence -- ergo, you believe WITHOUT
MH> EVIDENCE that physical things are the only "real" things.
MG> No. You switched in midstream. Not all real things are physical.
MG> The effects of emotions can be seen, can show physical evidence, yet
MG> emotion is very noncorporeal.
Emotions *can* leave physical evidence, but there's no reason they
must. Certainly they don't always.
MH> I would say that the existence of the universe is physical
MH> evidence of a Creator.
MG> I would ssay this is a fantastic claim, without one iota of evidence
MG> to back it up.
See, that's just the problem. The universe IS the evidence, but you've
rejected the conclusion, and so you refuse to consider the evidence.
Bloody pointless.
... You can write a good country song if you have an ex to grind.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Hell And Dalmatians
|Date: 16 Mar 96 20:11:00
EID:a428 2070a160
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8943438C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting David Johnston to Michael Hardy <=-
-> It's like this ... suppose your father is rich, and you live in a
-> luxurious mansion, with servants and gourmet food and all you could
-> want. But you leave, and go live in a tiny rat-infested apartment,
-> eating peanut butter and shivering in the cold.
-> Now, your father could come get you and drag you back home. But so
-> long as you don't want to be there, you'll be miserable and
-> eventually run away again.
DJ> This does not accurately reflect Christian doctrine which assumes that
DJ> once you are dead you will be committed to your destination based on
DJ> the state of grace in which you died.
Yes, it does exactly. Heaven is always open. All you have to do is come
inside. But coming inside requires admitting that you have need of
God's help, an admission many are unwilling to make. So they stubbornly
stay outside, rather than admit it.
... Jesus saves. The rest of us rack up credit card debt.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: face value
|Date: 16 Mar 96 20:12:00
EID:00c8 2070a180
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8943438D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> We have TONS of evidence that this is true! Karen, the emperor Nero
MH> was persecuting Christians by the AD 60s. That's less than 30 years
MH> after
MH> the crucifixion. Obviously, there had to be enough of them by that
MH> time for him to find them a sufficient bother to be worth
MH> persecuting.
MH> We also know that Paul started writing his letters by the late 40s,
MH> less than 20 years after the crucifixion. His letters are all based
MH> squarely on the conviction that Jesus rose from the dead.
KD> And he could well have been hoodwinked.
Karen, you were just saying there was no evidence people
believed the resurrection shortly after it occurred. Now I've shown you
there is, and you blithely change the subject to its authenticity.
Pretty darn dishonest of you, now isn't it?
MH> Paul was writing his letters to established communities of believers.
MH> If the letters were written, say 15 years after the crucifixion, the
MH> evangelists obviously had to have visited those areas and established
MH> those communities in the years before that.
KD> Evidence of the author and the existence of the communities, outside
KD> of the letters themselves?
There is no reason to discount the letters themselves. False standard.
Take a hike. This sophism (look it up) is becoming VERY boring.
MH> Paul spent a couple or three years in Jerusalem, learning from
MH> Peter and the others, before he began his missionary journeys.
MH> If he was writing 15 years after the crucifixion, and began
MH> his journeys say, 10 years after it, then he was converted and
MH> began learning 7 years after it.
KD> No evidence for any of this.
Like some cheese to go with that whine? The book of Acts is evidence.
Many things in ancient history are evidence by a single written source,
and historians generally accept it. This particular claim isn't even of
anything supernatural or miraculous, just a matter of chronology.
MH> And he spent several years before his conversion persecuting the
MH> Christians. If it was even as little as two years, we have belief in
MH> the resurrection existing five years after the crucifixion. And
MH> because the Jerusalem church had been in existence for some time, we
MH> can
MH> assume that the Biblical account is essentially correct -- the belief
MH> in Jesus's resurrection developed immediately after the crucifixion.
KD> Again, the only evidence of this is IN the Bible.
So?
MH> Not the same situation at all. Joseph Smith wasn't a messiah figure
MH> at all, he just claimed to have received a revelation.
KD> I don't see any difference between that and your supposed son of god.
Perhaps not, but you're incredibly stupid.
KD> Puts the lie to the fact that they really believed what he was.
MH> You aren't following this very well. It establishes that they
MH> believed, early on, that the tomb was empty.
KD> They can't have believed the tomb was empty and still remained Jews.
Duh! I'm talking about the early CHRISTIANS, you idiot. They DIDN'T
remain Jews. They became Christians.
... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: FIJA Lunacy on your BBS
|Date: 17 Mar 96 14:02:00
EID:a6d4 20717040
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 268db275
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 259068f6
PID: FM 2.02
> kc> - Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx[512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
> The BBS you post from, by the way, is heavilly involved in
> the so-called "Fully Informed Jury Notification" lunacy --
> a right-wing extremist group which seizes upon an obscure
> ideal
Obscure?? Try more like "historical".
The use of the Jury system to prevent the unjust enforcement of ill-legislated
law is older than the United States. It goes clear back to AT LEAST the
Magna Charta times.
> that the United States jury system allows for a jury
> to find a defendant innocent reguardless of the evidence
> to the contrary
And regardless of the law itself. That is correct.
The consideration of whether or not a Jury can be gotten to convict under
a given law is one that has existed, again, since long before the United
States ever existed. And that consideration is a RIGHTFUL one.
No rightwing lunacy required, just the Jury System doing its __job__. Without
the right to judge the law as well as the facts, Juries serve no purpose
at all. One may as well make one's defense to a judge who cannot judge the
law as to a Jury who cannot judge the law -- and the judge alone approach
is cheaper.
> and reguardless of whether the defendant has
> admitted to and pled guilty of the crime.
This is one I've never heard of.
> The FIJA groups around the United States have ties with
> other right-wing extremist groups, often sharing resources
> and members. A BATF report I have on my system talks about
> the Aryan Nations ties with the FIJA extremists in vague
> and ill-defined terms.
Your own admission: "vague and ill-defined".
Were there ANY substance to the BATF report, the terms would be definitive
and direct, not vague and ill-defined.
Either that, or Terry's __right__ about their being hopelessly inept. In
the latter case, we need to disband BATF and transfer their personnel to
the LAPD where they belong. :-)
> I can't help but wonder that by posting from that BBS you may
> fall under the watchful eye of watchgroups around the country
> which look at dangerous or potentially dangerout right-wing
> extremists.
Now, here you're right on the button. Just because there's no rational reason
for it doesn't mean the gummint isn't staking your BBS out.
slack -- s.
~!~ I love my Country. I resent Her being subjected to government.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: All
|Sub: satan runs
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:22:13
EID:f37d 20718ac0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 e30ba0e4
On (16 Mar 96) Brad Jackson wrote to All...
BJ> Hello
BJ> I would like to point out that the messages written to me have
BJ> dropped off, a lot!! This tells me that when satans deciples
BJ> are face with the truth, they run scared!!
BJ> You and your bose (satan) know the Bible to be the word of God.
BJ> When you can't scare people into leaving you give up, just like many
BJ> times in the bible.
BJ> Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, [Satan]: for
BJ> it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only
BJ> shalt thou serve.
BJ> Matthew 8:32 And he said unto them, Go . And when they were come
BJ> out, they went into the herd of [swine]: and, behold, the whole herd
BJ> of [swine] ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and
BJ> perished in the waters.
BJ> Now that you deciples of (satan) are not filling this area with
BJ> garbage, maybe the true christians may discuss topics of the Lord
BJ> Jesus Christ.
BJ> This is a religion debate echo after all! Of course we know that
BJ> there is only one true religion and that is Christianity!!
BJ> The Belief that Jesus Christ is God.
BJ> John 10:30 [I and Father] are one.
BJ> Brad
I think we've got a christer takeover. FREEESSSHHH MEEAAAT!!!!!!
... I see that your lobotomy was a success.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: [2/2] Re: lack of any Evi
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:23:58
EID:b12a 20718ae0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 418648c7
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 143cb0a3
On (16 Mar 96) Rob Burcham wrote to Jim Germiquet...
JG> I like to think of my own current relationship in the way you
JG> state above. That god knew what I would need many years ago
JG> and had prepared my fiance at the time of her birth to grow
JG> up in such a way as to meet my need the day I met her.
RB> And what of those wives who turn out to be total bitches? And
RB> what of the husbands who like to slap the 'little lady'
RB> around? Did God prepare those mates also?
Notice how self-centered that is. God didn't prepare HIM to meet
any of HER needs, just the other way around. Gawd! what an
egomaniac!
... Convert or Kill: It's not just a good idea, it's God's law!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Quotes
|Date: 16 Mar 96 08:07:47
EID:aafb 207040e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 002814ed
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31484f69
On (14 Mar 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Marilyn Burge...
LB> By the way, if you have Internet access, when are you going to come
LB> visit #holysmoke?
I'm just learning my way around the Internet. I haven't yet found
the undernet and don't know how to access it. I keep seeing it
referred to in posts on here, but can't seem to get there via any
of the various search engines that MSN provides. Maybe someday
I'll stumble onto it, then I'll put it in my Favorites list so
I don't have to stumble and bumble again.
My Internet address is: Marilyn_Burge@msn.com, if you ever
want to reach me via that avenue. I'm subscribed for a year, so
I know that address is good for that long. I have another Internet
address, but it is for work, and I don't give it out, as it reveals
my place of employment.
... Ronald Wilson Reagan is an anagram for Insane Anglo Warlord.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 10:03:54
EID:a8dc 20705060
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 76c8c4f7
REPLY: 1:116/19 02A9D1B4
On (12 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Rob Burcham...
RB> You may be right. But I think that 'instinct' has to do with
RB> survival and not eternity.
AS> But many here--I presume you yourself---get along perfectly
AS> fine without a belief in an afterlife. The Sadduccees (i.e.,
AS> Caiphas, etc.) in the Bible themselves, despite being the
AS> High Priest of the Jewish religion, dispensed with same. If
AS> the fear of not surviving is so all-prevasive, why do so many
AS> people accept it with equanimity? Why did no society develop
AS> without such an "abberation"?
There is hardly anything aberrant about not wanting to die. It
is the flip side of our survival instinct. Or, do you consider
a will to survive to be aberrant?
... #@$ffwe99fjaljk ... Hey! Get the cat off the keyboard!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Sharks
|Date: 16 Mar 96 10:10:21
EID:0cfe 20705140
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 f86bf9e2
REPLY: 1:116/19 02A9FDC4
On (12 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to J.J. Hitt...
JH> This story would make a hell of a lot more sense if you had
JH> claimed that the minister wanted him dead instead of gay.
JH> As you typed it, it makes no sense at all.
AS> I just wanted to see if you all were paying attention...
AS> NOT!!!
AS> I can't even make any excuses. No kids were bothering me at the time.
AS> I reread it afterwards. It was such a familiar story to me, that I
AS> didn't see that I had repeated "gay" when I should have typed "dead".
AS> It's a good thing my friend doesn't read this conference, or I
AS> would REALLY be in for razzing, for mistelling the turning point of
AS> his life. Hmmm...what tastes good with crow?
Humble Pie.
... Faith: an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Notices
|Date: 16 Mar 96 10:23:04
EID:d46a 207052e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 cb9d646e
REPLY: 1:157/200 6f0105b2
On (13 Mar 96) Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote to Michael Hardy...
KD> MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MH> KDM> They may not have noticed Jesus himself, but they would have
MH> KDM> noticed things like his tomb being open, and, later on, the
MH> KDM> ability of certain people to speak in tongues.
KD> MH>
MH> Why do you assume they didn't? In fact, there were a number of
MH> anti-Christian writings that attempted to explain away the empty
KD> MH>tomb. None denied that the tomb was empty, which seems to be the
KD> MH>first line of defense, if in fact it was true.
KD> True; a bad example. I obviously need to do some research on Biblical
KD> history. But is there anything on people speaking in tongues? A
KD> missing body is fairly easy to fake; the ability to speak any language
KD> less so.
They don't speak any language; they babble. Then, somebody who CLAIMS
to be able to translate such nonsense gets up and "repeats" the whole
mess in English.
Interestingly enough, at least one of their ilk has been exposed.
Some skeptics went to a meeting with a hidden recorder. They
recorded the babblings and the "translation." Later, they went
to the "translator," and said they had a tape of a guy speaking
in tongues and needed an interpretation of his utterings. They
then played the tape, and the "translator" obliged them with the
"translation." They then played his earlier translation given
at the original meeting several weeks before. It didn't match at
all. Not even close.
Glossolalia is a learned skill (if, indeed, it can be thought of
as in the least skillful). Anybody, with a little practice, can
acquire the knack for it. No gods and no holy ghosts required.
... "Windows Is Not A Virus, A Virus Does Something!"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: 'american 'athiest''
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:42:39
EID:0cc9 20707d40
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c5ba4d41
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31483423
On (14 Mar 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Kevin D. Mckenzie...
LB> (I'm not trying to pick on them, I am just disturbed to
LB> apparently discover that the membership gave over such solid
LB> control to the founders -- what would be said about that if
LB> the organization were a religious one?)
To give you an idea of just how fundy Jon Murry was, he wrote an
editorial piece in the AAMag that basically said " if you call
yourself a freethinker, agnostic, deist, Unitarian, secular
humanist, or humanist Jew, we don't want you. It's time for us to
come CLEAR out of the closet and shout from the rooftops that
there is not god and we're full-blown atheists." It was at that
point that I decided not to renew my membership. I don't like
fundy atheists any more than I like fundy christers. And, after
what the O'Hair family did to the organization, running away with
all its money, I could care less who gives the organization a
black eye. The O'Hairs have it coming, so far as I'm concerned.
Anybody who wants a rational approach to nonbelieve if welcome to
join the American Humanist Association. I've never seen a hint of
that kind of bigotry in their magazine, and I don't think I ever
will.
... "Evolution: The fossils say no!"- Gish; "Gish is an idiot" -fossils.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: satan's runs, hits, and errors
|Date: 17 Mar 96 17:27:35
EID:1b77 20718b60
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314d5165
Brad Jackson said "satan runs" to All, adding:
BJ> I would like to point out that the messages written to me have
BJ> dropped off, a lot!!
Still preening yourself on the fact that many here have found
you to be a boring little dog's pizzle and have stopped reading your
semi-verbal flatulence?
BJ> This tells me that when satans deciples
BJ> are face with the truth, they run scared!!
Have you any evidence for the existence of this satan
entity--evidence that is distinguishable from any of your other
masturbatory fantasies? Or is this just more bullshit like the rest
of your grandiose maunderings?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 17 Mar 96 16:50:05
EID:94b7 20718640
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314d5166
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 314b5de4
Lynda Bustilloz said "The end?" to Selena Kerr, adding:
SK> Hey all! Is anyone familiar with the predictions of M. Nostradamus?
SK> I have recently read that the world is supposed to end by nuclear war
SK> at the end of the year 1999. This seems to coincide with the bible,
SK> doesn't it? I am not very familiar with the bible. There are a few
SK> things that Nostradamus predicted that have already come true, so I
SK> guess the end is inevitable?
SK> What do you think?
LB> I think you'd better rush out right now and stock up on canned goods
LB> and bottled water -- beat the crowd who are too stupid to read this
LB> week's issue of the Star! Hurry, now that you've gone and announced
it
LB> EVERYONE will be running to the stores!
And toilet paper. She'll need lots and lots of toilet paper.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: 'american 'athiest''
|Date: 16 Mar 96 22:02:00
EID:5395 2070b040
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89440E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 13:26, Lynda Bustilloz got back to Kevin D. Mckenzie
LB> Buy WHY can't the other members of the organization deal with it, with
LB> or without the presence of the O'Hares? Were/are the American Atheists
LB> so tightly controlled by the top that they can't function at all
Who or what are the O'Hares?
After all, the only groups I've "joined" are Staaled's Mister
list and Hardy's Twit file. My Godhood was simply thrust upon
me! The two former I find amusing, the later, modestly deserved,
as it was a fundy that gave me the appellation in the first place!
... If you trust in a god, make sure the god has a humane sense of humor.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 17 Mar 96 00:04:00
EID:383b 20710080
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89440E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-15-96 01:31, Mark Barnett got back to Styx Allum
SA>Fiction is fiction. Fact is fact.
MB> True fact is fact and fiction is fiction. But that is no evidence that
MB> the bible is fiction. In fact if anything you just made a point that
So, do provide for the veracity of the bible. You can start
by providing evidence that the Flood occured. Got any?
... +Origin: MANSONIAN! NETWORK -- SACRIFICING VIRGINS FOR JAYSUS!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 17 Mar 96 00:53:00
EID:94ea 207106a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89440E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-15-96 05:40, Annette Spence got back to David Worrell
DW> Please present what you feel are Josh's three strongest arguments.
AS> question. You will have to get specifc. I got that from the
AS> title page by the way.
Which is as close as you could come to getting even a gasp
put of Josh's arguments.
... "A Verdict that Demands Some Evidence." Josh McDowell
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Toys
|Date: 17 Mar 96 19:06:00
EID:8cc9 207198c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89440E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 14:33, Lynda Bustilloz got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> gets immediate feedback from those around him. Though he can't
DC> directly see the colors, he knows that they do not match.
LB> green. He once picked an entire tomato plant bare, thinking they were
LB> ripe, so we quickly learned how to make fried green tomatoes. And the
Well, at least there was a plus side to that...
LB> thought was a subtle sort of tan, and it turned out to be the most
LB> hideous glow in the dark green you ever saw.
Did he go back and talk to the store owner and have the salesman
who sold it to him shot on the spot?
Sounds like you dad has a sense of humor. My friend needed one
too, as he never bothered to pin his socks together when he
washed them!
... "Suppose I made an analogy that wasn't debunked?" Wished by M Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Colors
|Date: 17 Mar 96 19:37:00
EID:a151 20719ca0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89440E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 14:27, Masochistic Maiden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> gets immediate feedback from those around him. Though he can't
DC> directly see the colors, he knows that they do not match.
MM> Then to be certain that something exists that we can not personally
MM> perceive, we listen to others and go with the overpowering majority?
Nope, not at all. There are far more exacting tests that can
be performed to demostrate the existance of the perception
of color.
MM> colorblind person who said, "OH, since I can't expereince color... it
MM> does not exist."...... I'd probably be a maybe.
The thing is, it is demonstratable, even to a blind person.
... If I have any belief, it is that faith is a dangerous thing. --RBJ
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 17 Mar 96 19:47:00
EID:1a51 20719de0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89440E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-15-96 16:30, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
js> being referred to as my brother Jim. that's alll.
FR> "We are Hugh." - Hugh.
Thing was, Hugh eventually was able to refer to himself as "me"...
dc> Yes, that must be the very worst epithet
dc> that can be applied to anyone.
FR> How about the poor sick female who married him?
Her I pity. Reminds of a girl I know that is deathly afraid of
her husdand. She's worried that if I talk to her that her
life may be in jeopardy. Not nice, but there is nothing that
can be done, as it's all been "private conversation".
... Russia has the Moscow circus, we have fundamentalist christians.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 17 Mar 96 19:50:00
EID:00fb 20719e40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89440E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-15-96 13:31, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> as the HolySmoke Curmudgeon. Now, stop grovelling or I'll have
DC> to demote you to Old Fart...
DM> Hell, I've already BEEN an Old Fart for years on my
DM> personal recognizance.
Must be the beans that you put in your chili...
DM> Naw--looks like they are going to make me permanent
DM> here, so I'll remain an effete Easterner.
Well, you can't have everything... I'll think of you the next
time I go to the beach for my oyster breakfast!
... Makes me want to run into a Catholic church and shout, "It's people!"
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: THUMB-SUCKING EVOLUNG
|Date: 16 Mar 96 22:34:00
EID:52e3 2070b440
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Andrew Masten <=-
NS> Thumb-sucking evolungelic:
NS> 1% Al Schroeder, 10% Andrew Masten,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
AS> Although too often philosophy can be a quagmire of semantics. Science
AS> earns one's respect by being one of the few branches of philosophy
AS> that show RESULTS, but one must never forget there are some
AS> philosophical assumptions underlying it.
AM> True enough. Some philosophy is pure hogwash.
AS> So is some science. Luckily, science has a self-correcting faculty,
AS> peer review and experimental verification and duplication, that steers
AS> it back to the right path. The larger philosophy from which it sprang
AS> has no such.
AM> There are some area's science comments on, where the restraints you
AM> described are impossible to put into effect. Yet they still declare
it
AM> scientific fact!!
NS> Oh really? Name them.
Theories regarding the beginning of the universe.
Regarding the beginning of our solar system.
Geologists attempt to reconstruct how things got to be the way they are.
Evolution can't be experimentally duplicated.
Even Einstiens theories were thought experiments, not until later were they
confirmed.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 23:19:00
EID:ffe2 2070ba60
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Andrew Masten <=-
DM> Certain that his ignorance would in the end triumph, Andrew
DM> Masten said "EVIDENCE" to Don Martin, adding:
AM> Has anyone claiming to be a Christian witnessed to you at knife
AM> point?
DM> No, but one named Paul Hill recently carried the day in
DM> a theological dispute with an abortionist by using a
DM> 12-guage shotgun. The word "sword" above is a metaphor for
DM> the exercise of force in general, I suspect. Ceppa's
DM> observation also covers the doings of the Inquisition, and
DM> they never used swords at all.
AM> There is no scriptural basis for Paul Hill's actions.
DM> So what? HE thought he did, and he, being the Christian
DM> in question, is more on top of this particular situation
DM> than you are. Your hand wringing is no more than the "Not a
DM> True Christian bullshit we see in here all of the time.
I said there's no basis for his actions from scripture. You brought up
the true Christian aspect.
AM> These guys
AM> hurt the very cause they are fighting for. The courts should deal
AM> with him like any other murderer.
DM> Hopefully, they will. Pity the courts cannot
DM> retroactively deal with the other instances of Christianity
DM> bullying its beliefs upon others.
To the contrary, the courts have been very effective in stifling freedom
of religous expression. You would think the bill of rights reads freedom
from religion and not freedom of religion.
AM> There's no justification for the inquisition.
DM> There sure as hell was in the eyes of the Inquisitors;
DM> again, your disagreement with their interpetation of these
DM> matters is irrelevant and saves nobody from the rack. The
DM> basic problem with other worldly religions in general is
DM> that the supposition that there is a greater reality than
DM> the one here on earth gives the believer in that "greater
DM> reality" carte blanche to impose his views upon the heretics
DM> who do not share his views.
I'm sure in Josef Stalins eye's he had a greater reality also. Were
his purges indicative of those who hold atheistic views?
AM> You can accept or
AM> reject Christ's teachings, on thier own merit, and not on the
AM> conduct of sadists masquarading as Christians.
DM> If religion is a matter of belief, how can you so easily
DM> dismiss the beliefs of these apparently sincere people? By
DM> the same token, your beliefs may be dismissed.
AM> I personally believe,
AM> that my conduct of trying my best to adhere to Christ's teachings,
AM> is my most powerful witness to the truth of Christ.
DM> As did each and every one of those assholes personally
DM> believe. You are in good company.
Its not that difficult to determine if your actions are in line with Christs
teachings or not. You just bring up the inquisition as a smokescreen to
divert yourself from moral culpability. Why don't you talk about Christian
organizations that are feeding and clothing the poor? Or prison ministries
that are bringing hope to convicts? Or street ministries that are sheltering
our throwaway youth. Or Christain football players that publicly declare
there commitment to Christ? Or thousands of acholics who have turned
there lives around by allowing God to work in thier lives?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 23:28:00
EID:7bed 2070bb80
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 03-12-96 00:08, Andrew Masten got back to David Worrell
AM> I haven't seen anyone bother to cite evidence of how the universe
AM> self assembled out of atoms, and then atoms ultimately self
DW> That's because no one has made that claim, numbnuts. You have made a
AM> Oh, really David. Thats because your not man enough to stand up and
AM> tell us your explanation for how we got here.
DC> What are you going to do, Andy? Beat the truth out of him? Sounds
DC> a lot like what they tried to do to Galileo to make him lie about
DC> the _evidence_ that Galilea had garnered from his observations
DC> of reality.
If David has a point of view he would like me to subscibe to, let him
articulate it. This is a debate isn't it?
AM> expose yourself as a coward who's only secure enough to be critical
of
AM> others beliefs while offering no alternative.
DC> I don't care what you believe. I care about the evidence that
DC> you can provide. Got any?
Yes, as you know full well I've provided evidence that suggests were here
by design. What evidence do you have that were here solely by natural
processes??
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: CHRISTIANITY = DEATH CULT
|Date: 16 Mar 96 23:37:00
EID:1e0d 2070bca0
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Andrew Masten <=-
am> Many who comment on this echo, don't just disbelieve
am> in God, but loathe the God they claim they don't believe
am> in.
FR> Interesting claim, Andy. How can the better educated hate or loathe
FR> what doesn't appear to exist? Do you also hate and loathe Peter Pan?
Whats your criteria for better educated?? C.S. Lewis was a profesor at
Oxford university and spent his life defending the Christian faith. Are
you better educated than he?
No, I don't hate or loathe Peter Pan, thats why I haven't created a
Peter Pan echo designed to debate (ha ha) those who do.
FR> When will a fundy ever answer an honest question honestly? Do you
FR> have to get your master's authorization to answer questions?
Hardly. Start asking some honest questions.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE WHAT
|Date: 16 Mar 96 23:47:00
EID:326e 2070bde0
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Andrew Masten <=-
JG> I have to agree with you here. But then who is to say it didn't?
JG> I have always said that the theory of evolution takes more faith to
JG> believe in than the story of creation and should be called the
JG> religion of evolution :-)
am> Jim, your not gonna make alot of friends
am> in this echo. But I like your hudspa.
FR> You're simply agreeing with his ignorance and superstition. The fact
FR> of evolution isn't in debate any more than the fact of gravity is in
FR> debate. Trying to pretend-away reality because you think it hurts your
FR> occultism is childish.
Nonsense Fredric. If evolution were a proven fact, than indeed it would
not
be in debate. Granted the majority of scientists do subscribe to evolution
theory. Unlike evolution, gravity is a repeatable falsifiable experimental
fact of science. As Louis Bounoure, former president of the biological
society of Strasbourg and director at the Natural Center of Scientific
Research of France said, "Evolution is a fairytale for grownups. This
theory has helped nothing to the progress of science. It is useless."
-Quoted in Wysong , Creation-Evolution Controversy p.418
It is you who are hiding your head in the sand pretending your evolution
religion is a proven fact. Thats very fundamentalistic of you.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 17 Mar 96 01:15:00
EID:db27 207109e0
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
KDM> ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
AM> DW> claim, however, and have provided nothing to support it other
AM> DW> than supposition. Where is your *evidence*?
AM>
AM> I did provide evidence that suggests were here by design. When are
AM>you going to join the big boys step up to the plate and provide some
AM>evidence for whatever you believe, that your too scared to share on
AM>this echo??
KDM> I'll make a deal with you. The day you're able to explain what that
KDM> list you continually posts means, I (and some others, most likely),
KDM> will be more then happy to argue. Until then, shut up.
Easy. It means a profundity of conditions have to be satified in order
for life as we know it (which is the only life we know of) to happen.
It means there's more reason for us to believe were here by design
than by chance. And it means your going to have to do better than just
invoke your god of time and chance.
Until you have evidence that we are here solely due to naturalistic
processes, perhaps you should shut up.
"When you consider all the complexity of the universe, you have to ask
yourself one question. Do you feel lucky, well do you punk!"
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 08:59:25
EID:21bc 20704760
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 314b04bd
REPLY: 1:116/19 051289E6
Here's what Al Schroeder said to Lee Woofenden about THE PATTERN OF THE
BIBLE:
LW> Right. This is something that the fundy atheist Bible critics
LW> completely miss. They assume that God is unlike any other intelligent
LW> life form we know and does not adapt the message to the comprehension
LW> and receptivity of the hearer.
AS> They would make him LESS intelligent than most parents here.
Of course, fundy Christians do the same thing.
Fundy Christians and fundy atheists are birds of a feather when it comes
to their conception of religion. It's just that fundy Christians believe
in it and fundy atheists don't. Other than that, both have the same simplistic
view of religion. The fight between the fundies on both sides of the fence
is a sibling rivalry.
--Lee
... For every vision there is an equal and opposite revision.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 15 Mar 96 09:34:12
EID:d329 206f4c40
A FAIR & JUST GOD:
1% Al Schroeder, 10% Michael Hardy,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
MB> IO see a HUGE qualitative difference between wiping out the
MB> Midianties because they worship the wrong god and allowing people
MB> to die of old age and disease. If you don't, I can do nothing but
MB> question your sense of ethics.
AS> Oh, I can too. You may notice a letter from me to Jim G., this
AS> packet, about me taking him to task for saying it sounded "humane"
AS> to him. I don't know the answer to the Midianite thing, Marilyn, I
AS> really don't. Oh, I can make guesses, and offered Jim a few. For
AS> instance, some of those who followed the Baal religion (which it
AS> states explicitly they did) adopted the Molech sacrifice system of
AS> sacrificing children, routinely.
MH> This is just another one of those Hobson's choices the atheists hold
MH> to. I realize some of them genuinely struggle with these issues, but
MH> think many more of them simply use them as excuses.
I miss the reference to Hobson's choices. Could you illuminate me?
MH> If God does nothing about evil, they whine "How could a loving God
MH> let these people sacrifice children?" If God does do something about
MH> it, they whine "How could a loving God wipe out those people just for
MH> worshiping the 'wrong' god?"
Uhm, by saying this it implies that you see only the two choices. If
this isn't the case, could you let me know? I think black and white
thinking is part of the reason a lot of us argue. I can see a lot
more than these two choices. Your God could have done something about
the evil without slaughtering all those people, couldn't he?
AS> It also states, a little prior to that order, that Midianite women
AS> "seduced" Iraelite men and brought them to the worship of Baal.
MH> But see Al, Marilyn insists that everyone should be free to worship
MH> whatever god they please, and the real God should just shut up and
MH> let it go on. It seems to me that the only way a person can believe
MH> that all beliefs are equal is to have no beliefs of his or her own.
So if someone believes in a smorgasboard, they do so because they don't
like to eat themselves? };) I'm an Panthiest myself . . . I believe
that YHVH exists equally with all the others. I don't make many claims
about my beliefs, and I'm not trying to here. I'm just pointing out
something: I don't believe as you do . . . I _do_ believe that everyone
is entitled to their beliefs as long as they don't foist them off on
others . . . and regardless of my differences with you, I would be
upset if you were not allowed to worship as you see fit. I just don't
get the impression that you would be equally grieved to see the worship
of my Deities outlawwed, ect. Any thoughts on this?
BTW, I can see a Deity being angry against someone that's broken a
covenant with Them, but since most of us never made a covenant with
YHWH, what's the problem?
d>Ä Area: National Religious Debate Echo ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
r> Msg#: 77 Date: 07 Mar 96 23:01:00
o> From: Michael Hardy Read: Yes Replied:
No
o> To: All Mark:
l> Subj: drool game
d>ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
r>Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin. So I'm
o>going to liven it up with a little game.
o>
l>I've finally set up a twit filter, something I resisted for two years
d>because I tried to believe that anyone could have something
r>worthwhile to say once in a while. But as my patience began to wear, I
o>decided I'd rather spend one hour a night having interesting exchanges
o>than three hours a night wading through drool to get the occasional
l>worthwhile questions. And I observed that the bulk of the drool was
d>coming consistently from the same few people.
r>
o>The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
o>David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David Worrell.
l>
d>The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of
r>non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my
o>way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at least
o>one month, possibly longer.
l>
d>No clues, though. The person in question was picked at random, with all
r>names in the running except for Boni Hitch and Pam Gray, who don't seem
o>to be in the loop. Could be anyone, other than them or the charter
o>twits.
l>
d>This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and win
r>$100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at least
o>30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
o>
l>Go to it, twits!
d>
r>... If I ran the world, things would be a lot better. Well, for me anyway.
o>
o>___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
l>
d>-!- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
r> ! Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
... Deuteronomy 28:36: YHVH: you must serve other Deities & idols.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 15 Mar 96 09:39:21
EID:0929 206f4ce0
A tale of 2 inerrantists:
1% Don Martin, 10% Rob Burcham,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DM> NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
DM> NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
DM> NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
DM> NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
DM> NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was
an
DM> NS> actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How cruel!
DM>
DM> Cruel to the ants and not all that kind to the anteater: imagine
DM> the creepy sensation that poor thing must have endured when taking a
DM> dump? Given that this animal eats nothing else, it must have been
DM> one of the most ardent cheerleaders for the original sin to take
DM> place before it starved to death.
RB> Not only the anteater, but the scavengers must have had it
RB> rough too. ...Please God, make SOMETHING DIE!!
Remembering the poster in the sixties/seventies: Two buzzards sitting
next to each other in a tree, one is saying to the other "Patience my
ass, I'm going to kill something!"
};)
... 24 hours in a day/24 beers in a case: Coincidence???
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:00:39
EID:6570 20705800
Re: A tale of 2 cities...:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
RM> Given the fact that the language that the Bible was written in made
no
RM> distinction between bats and birds (a fact noted in my previous post,
RM> but carefully Hectorized out of the part you quoted back), only a moron
JG> A common tactic when trying to take something out of context or twist
JG> it to mean something it wasn't intended to. Or if it shows the error
JG> of logic in their own replies.
NS> Actually, Rick was wrong here in that he said the language (sic)
NS> that the bible was written in made no distinction between bats and
NS> birds.
NS> In the bible there are the following terms for birds and bats:
NS> -------------------------------------------------------------------
NS> bat or bats `atalleph [Hebrew] {at-al-lafe'}
NS> bat or bats.
NS> -----------------------------
JG> --------------------------------------
NS> bird or tsippowr [Hebrew] {tsip-pore'}
NS> birds bird or birds.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
JG> So if this word was used, it could refer to both.
That's a lie. If `atalleph was used, it referred to bat or bats, if
the word tsippowr was used, it referred to bird or birds. You're being
guilty of the same dishonest debate you classify others of. Is it
physically impossible for you to read and comprehend words? Try
phonics. As in Hooked On ----.
JG> Also just because a different word was used, is it not possible
JG> that they may have considered a bat just another species of bird,
JG> like an owl or a pigeon or a duck.
Only if they used the word `owph. Get a clue:
NS> `owph [Hebrew] {ofe}
NS> flying creatures, including insects,
NS> birds, and bats.
JG> Again, denotes by using the same word for all, an inability or
JG> at least a lack of categorization to differentiate them in
JG> certain instances.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> `ayit [Hebrew] {ah'-yit}
NS> bird of prey.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> orneon [Hebrew] {or'-neh-on}
NS> bird or fowl.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> ts@phar [Aramaic] {tsef-ar'}
NS> fowl, bird, or like-birds.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> peteinon [Greek]
NS> flying or winged animals.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> ptenon [Greek]
NS> of winged animals.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> /\ ba`al [Hebrew] {bah'al}
NS> | | owner, husband, adversary, master,
NS> | with | archers, babbler, mangiven, have, bird,
NS> | | confederate, and captain.
NS> \/ kanaph [Hebrew] {kaw-nawf'}
NS> wing, skirt, borders, corners,ends,
NS> feathered, sort, and winged.
NS> Essentially: ba`al-kanaph (winged babbler, aka bird.)
NS> -------------------------------------------------------------------
NS> So the bible clearly does distinquish, when it wants to, between
NS> birds and bats. Just not in the particular scripture that is being
NS> cited, I believe. How is it that I, a non-Xtian, have a better
NS> grasp of your sacred text than either of you do? You display your
NS> own errors.
JG> While I admire your technical knowledge of the bible, the scribes and
JG> pharisees were much more knowledgeable than even yourself, I am
JG> willing to venture.
Your point, other than the top of your head? We're not talking about
the scribes and pharisees, we're chatting about words used.
JG> But it was with this group of people that Jesus accused of fulfilling
JG> the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit or "true meaning" of
JG> those words.
So what do JC's complaints against the scribes and pharisees have to do
with me? Are you purposely obtuse?
JG> You have only indicated that there are different references in terms
JG> of the appearance of the animal , not on whether it was still
JG> considered as being a "type" of bird.
Not my point at all. Rick said there were no words distinquishing
between birds and bats. I proved him wrong. Unilaterally. To peddle
your papers elsewhere.
JG> In fact by showing that a word stood for both bats and birds and
JG> insect, you have shown a lack of distinction in terms of
JG> classification. SO a bat may have just been considered a different kind
JG> of bird. When did the "classification" of bird come into effect?
I showed that one word out of many had a general classification, that
the rest of them were very specific, contrary to what your ranting here
is. What's you hat size, about a three?
... "Death is a penalty for life as night is a penalty for day." T Carmen
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:05:31
EID:11be 207058a0
Re: a theist hypocrisy:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
EJ> 1) he married his wife after she was impregnated with the firstborn
EJ> child 2) his latest deal formed a for-profit organization (IFE, owner
EJ> Robertson has no training in divinity instruction, despite having
EJ> attended Yale. Pat was converted by an evangelical minister and then
EJ> proceeded to announce "his calling". 5) The first station Pat Robertson
EJ> grabbed was flim-flam of a station owner who was strapped of cash and
EJ> wanting out of a television ownership. 6) Who are some of Pat
EJ> "flock" and there will be a link to Robertson.
JG> Your so called "dirt" didn't impress me. In fact it makes him look
JG> like a saint in light of the dirt that has been dug up of one of
JG> Americans greatest heros John F. Kennedy. If you are looking for dirt
I
JG> am sure you can find some on all of us. "For ALL have sinned and fall
JG> far short of the glory of God." And when you can't find enough you can
JG> misconstrue things and make them LOOK dirty when they in fact are not.
NS> Excuse me, but what happened to the end of number 2, the beginning
NS> of number 4, and all of number 3? Are you altering quotes?
JG> I will often take out the middle of a quote to make it shorter and
JG> just include the beggining and end to show the quote and context of
the
JG> passage. It is irrelevant what the dirt was in my opinion. AS noted
in
JG> a later message, I indicated that great men of god like David and Moses
JG> were guilty of adultery and murder. All have sinned. Man is not a
JG> perfect being. He is still undergoing the process of evolution. Now
we
JG> are into the spiritual evolution of man. Be patient, God isn't finished
JG> with us yet. :-)
I see. So its possible that you took out the section that refuted your
idea, right? After all, I didn't see the original, you could be
excerpting it just to not have it prove you wrong. Interesting. And
very believeable. Without the whole quote, it looks as though you
could be guilty of hiding something (in essence, lying) to cover your
butt. Around here, we don't look kindly on people who edit the quotes
of others, especially for this sort of purpose. The dirt was very
relevant, since on it we decide the moral character involved. Another
dishonest debate trick.
... Jim, walking the Devil's dog and carrying his groceries.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:08:40
EID:0aff 20705900
Re: Adolph Hitler:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> Adolph Hitler:
NS> 1% Dan Ceppa, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DC> Got evidence that Satan exists, John? If so, lets see it.
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan. If you mean a red guy with horns
JG> and a pitchfork, there is no point continuing this discussion. I
JG> havent seen him take that form. But I am sure many of us have seen him
JG> take the form of people like Charles Manson :-)
NS> Ah, then the answer is no, right? I've never seen Satan or anyone
NS> else take the form of another.
JG> If "god" is a "spirit", as it says in the bible, then why can "satan"
JG> not be a spirit as well ?
Begging the question. You haven't proved that either of them is a
spirit, so you can't assume they are, and operate at though everyone
also assumes they are. Prove your points sequentially. First
establish the true nature of both god and the devil.
JG> In fact Jesus said to his disciple Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan",
JG> when Peter entreated him not to go to his death. But this was the will
JG> of god and anything that would go against that will, would be referred
JG> to as "satan".
Peter was Satan? How awkward for him . . . I bet the rest of the
disciples poked fun at him.
JG> So in the garden of eden, when Eve ate from the tree that God told
JG> them not to, whatever it was that caused her to do so, could be
JG> considered "satan".
Ah, but in the previous quote, you said you didn't believe that the
Garden of Eden existed, that in fact it was a metaphor. So Eve, the
Tree, and Satan could all just be metaphors too, right? I'm glad you
admitted this now.
... "And to my cat Mittens I leave my entire, vast...BOOT TO THE HEAD!!"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:16:39
EID:0aff 20705a00
Re: Adolph Hitler:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> That is the only way to describe proving the existence of God or
JG> Satan. They are like the wind. You know it exists by the effect it has.
NS> But people have claimed to see both. Some even claim to have seen
NS> Yahweh's great hairy ass.
JG> "I see said the blind man. You're a liar said the dummy"
JG> get the point :-)
Just the one on the top of your head. Supposedly Moses was shown
YHVH's hindparts, in which I was referrencing above.
JG> I have seen the future . I see what you mean . It could be a mental
JG> picture they have seen. It could be a vision. It could be some kind
JG> of hologram for I all I know. It is a MANIFESTATION of God.
Clairvoyancy, speech metaphors, dreams/illusions, and holograms are the
manifestation of god? I didn't know that. The guy showing me the
holograms down at the mall was god? Gee, I had the perfect opportunity
to punch god in the mouth and I let it slip by . . . dang . . .
JG> Jesus was a physical manifestation of God. The spirit of God was the
JG> controlling influence for Jesus Christ.
JG> Some people say they can see God in nature, in a sunset.
JG> God is a "spirit" . What is a "spirit" ?
NS> Denatured alcohol.
JG> The "spirit" of Christmas.
NS> Yahweh is Santa? And Lucifer is Satan? So they'd be reverse to
NS> dyslexics?
JG> If that is the definition you choose, It is not the one I intended so
JG> why don't you go check the other 10 definitions. It might make this
JG> discussion a bit more intelligent.
That would only happen if we could reverse your lobotomy. You gave the
examples . . . if they weren't the ones you intended, why did you give
them? Sounds like a personal problem to me. Sort of an Echos
Terrett's (sp?) Syndrome.
JG> Can you put it
JG> in a test tube or under a microscope ?
NS> Would you put a person under a microscope or in a test tube?
JG> Of course we do. In hospitals, in morgues, in schools. ALl the time.
Wow, I can't wait to see the huge glass slides that are used for them.
No, you put parts of them under those instruments. You put parts of
them in those containers.
JG> I have put my own hand under a microscope.
When carrying it?
JF> And in a test tube :-)
You put your whole hand in a test tube? I don't believe it.
JG> I have seen the effect of wind on objects.
JG> I have felt the wind on my body.
JG> I have seen the effect of god on the spirit of people.
JG> I have felt god in my spirit.
Slight difference: you can collect the wind in its physical form. But
god remains a myth.
... "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you." - Inigo Montoya
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:19:06
EID:da9d 20705a60
Re: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> DEFINITIONS FOR JIM:
NS> 1% Karen Davis, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> How would you like it if I formed a group of people and we called
JG> ourselves Davistians. Now we go around and we rape little boys and
JG> kill gays and witches in YOUR name. We tell everyone that YOU told
JG> us to do these things. And thousands of KKK members and white
JG> supremists join our ranks and pedophiles and we all claim to be
JG> following the teachings of Karen Davis as devout Davistians.
NS> Gee, sounds just like Xtians. I think you've insulted Karen. I
NS> know *I* wouldn't want to be likened to a Xtian. BTW, though I'm
NS> sure Karen is divine in her own right, I don't think she's achieved
NS> official god statue in this echo. Several have, perhaps they're on
NS> the lookout for a hard working and up and coming individual such as
NS> yourself that seems highly motivated and has many suggestions.
JG> I think I have made my point. If you choose to ignore it, and make
JG> light of it for whatever reason, so be it.
The first two words of your response appears to be an oxymoron. No,
you haven't made your point, you're pretty close to incomprehensible.
I made fun of it for two reasons (a) you were being mean and nasty to
someone you didn't have to be and [this is the most important] (b) it
was incredibly easy. If you don't want your ravings to be made fun of,
then made intelligent comments.
... Jim's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:34:02
EID:a5dc 20705c40
Re: double standard alert:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Isn't that a surprise concidering I refer to myself as a Christian.
JG> According to Karen all Christians seem to be murdering, lieing,
JG> thieves.
NS> Incorrect reference, I'm sure. Show me where she said all Xtians
NS> were these things, or stop acting like a spoiled child.
JG> try going back and reading her messages again.
I have. No such statement. So you are a liar.
JG> The implication is always given that she is such a good person and
JG> she is not a christian and that christians are thieves and liars.
Ah, here's your problem. You assume (pretty stupidly too) that
statements are the same as implications. Let's look:
statement (stAYt'muhnt) --noun
1. The act of stating.
2. Something stated.
3. A written summary of a financial account.
implicate (im'pli-kAYt) --verb: -cated, -cating
1. To involve, esp. incriminatingly.
2. To imply.
[Lat. implicare]
--implica'tion noun
See, the two are different things. When you said that bit about Karen,
you were stating it as though it was actually something said by Karen,
as opposed to any implication she might or might not have made.
Implications are to a great degree subjective, yet you attacked her for
statements she never said. So, in essence, you _are_ a liar. And a
bully. And you make stuff up to suit your purposes. This is exactly
why Xtians get portrayed as liars: this sort of behavior. You lied.
JG> And you ?
Moi? I asked you where she said that. She didn't say that, though she
may have implied that. I was asking for clarification on a point you
were busily twisting.
JG> I see you stoop to the debating tactics of calling people
JG> names and making personal attacks.
Ah, the pot calling the kettle black. I returned tit for tat,
sometimes better. The very FIRST post in the area from you was one in
which you responded to my quoting someone else. The person I was
quoting said something YOU took umbrage at, so you spent two posts
denigrating ME for it. I pointed it out to you twice, but not even an
acknowledgement of my posts pointing it out to you have come back, so
don't read me the riot act you fucking twerp (not to denigrate any
real twerps out there). I also read you the riot act for SAYING (not
even insinuating) that it was a good idea to kill defenseless women and
children, etc. You wouldn't even admit you were wrong there . . . you
claimed it to be a joke, which is not a laughing matter. Don't throw
rocks at me when you've got to get your own act together.
JG> You think that by calling me a "spoiled child" that it gives more
JG> credibility to your own message .
Bullshit. It points you out to be the fundy no-neck thug that you are.
Are you going to cry? Or clean up your act? If you don't like the
things being said around here: LEAVE. But stop it with the cowardly
crap. Stop making up thing about what people say about you: you're not
entitled to judge, given your own miscreant nature. If you can't take
a bloody nose every once in a while, get off the playground.
JG> I am not really interested in such responses.
You've obviously mistaken me for someone who cares.
... Jim, you're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:38:13
EID:8408 20705cc0
Re: Evidence:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Are you going to blame "god" for the choices that people make ?
JG> WHether it be not watching their children or not teaching them to stay
JG> away from the edge. I am sure that "god" didn't "push" the kid off of
JG> that high place. God didn't even put the kid up on that high place.
JG> Stop blaming god for what people do from things like carelessnes,
JG> greed, anger etc etc etc.
NS> Lemme see here:
NS> Hypothesis one: that a divine being known as god creates
NS> people.
NS> Hypothesis two: said people go all over the place doing a
NS> lot of not so nice things.
NS> Answer: Hell yes, I blame god.
JG> If a man is a murderer or a thief, do you put his mother in jail.
JG> Under your hypothesis and conclusion, it seems that would be the
JG> case.
Answered below. You don't read very carefully, do you?
NS> If my child vandalizes or destroys public property, steals money,
NS> etc. *I* am the one held accountable by law. And, rightly, god is
NS> (or should be) held accountable for the actions of his 'children,'
NS> right? Especially since he _can_ stop their errant behavior (to
NS> buy into your argument here) with nothing more than a thought.
NS> Parents who can't control their kids with thoughts have to pay for
NS> their actions, why not parents who could use their thoughts to stop
NS> them?
JG> And God did exactly that when he came to earth as Jesus Christ and
JG> hung on the cross and "died" for our sins.
Ah, please prove that this happened before making such a grandiose
claim.
JG> But just as a parent is not responsible for his childrens actions when
JG> they reach 18, so too we must pay for our own actions when we are
JG> mature enough to understand them. With the coming of Jesus Christ, we
JG> reached that level. There is now no excuse that we are minors. And do
JG> not understand. Now it is an adult choice we make in choosing evil.
But you're ignoring a major point. When god created everything in your
myth, he also created sin and evil. So, he didn't just create the
people who do sin, who do evil, he created what they do. I create my
child, I don't create the action my child does. So god IS responsible.
... Exodus 32:14: YHVH does evil.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:44:39
EID:8408 20705d80
Re: Evidence:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS> Evidence:
NS> 1% Martin Goldberg, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> God doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything. That is what "free
JG> choice" is all about. And in order to be human we NEED that free
JG> choice, or we would be nothing more than robots.
JG> Stop blaming god for what PEOPLE do.
NS> Supposedly god prevent Pharoah from releasing the Jews a number of
NS> times. If we utilize free will, we go to hell. If we don't, we're
NS> robots. God creates the original no-win situation. And god made
NS> people just like him . . . I say he's responsible.
JG> We make ourselves what we are by the choices we make. Just as you can
JG> work out in a gym everyday and eat properly and make yourself a
JG> certain physical being or you can sit and watch tv all day eating pizza
JG> and chips and make yourself a different physical being. It is the same
JG> spiritually. Like the computer phrase GIGO, garbage in garbage out.
If
JG> you choose to partake in pornography and admire murderers and drug
JG> dealers, you are creating yourself as a certain type of spiritual
JG> being. If you follow the spiritual ideas of love and truth and peace
JG> you are creating yourself as a certain kind of spiritual being.
Hey, clueless: you completely ignored what I said. I didn't say that
Pharoah refused to let the Jews go on his own, which is what you are
implying here. I said, (and its documented in your holy book) that GOD
stopped Pharoah. Reread what I said:
> god prevent Pharoah from releasing the Jews a number of
...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> times. If we utilize free will, we go to hell. If we don't, we're
...^^^^^!!!!
> robots. God creates the original no-win situation. And god made
> people just like him . . . I say he's responsible.
So, to follow your analogy, let's say there's a guy named Lou who lives
upstairs. Lou is big, not very nice, and given to violent outburst of
temper. Lou likes to come downstairs every day and kidnap me and make
me go to a gym with him. At the gym, regardless of what I may want,
Lou insists on making me fight with him in a ring. I can't refuse,
because Lou is going to hit me either way. THAT is the action of a
bully . . . AND the action of YHVH with Pharoah. YHVH did it for no
other reason than he got yucks out of it.
... Exodus 10:1: YHVH causes Pharoh to be obstinant about freeing Jews.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: EVIDENCE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 11:58:13
EID:8408 20705f40
Re: EVIDENCE:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> I do have a clue. The truth is that the universe IS man centered.
JG> In fact if you think about it YOU
is
JG> the center of the universe. Think about it. Especially if the universe
JG> is infinite, and we have no reason to believ that it isn't.
JG> In an infinite universe, any particular spot in it is the center of
JG> it. Now on a more personal level, who is the center of YOU'RE universe
JG> ? YOU are, everything else is outside of it and surrounding you, YOU
JG> are the center of your universe and the universe. Now if you want to
JG> define a "solar system" as a system that revolves around a sun, then
JG> indeed you are not the center of the solatr system, but you still
JG> remain the center of the universe. :-)
NS> Ah, more obtuseness. If I'm on the phone with my mom, which of us
JG> Obtuseness ? I tried to explain it so that it would not be obtuse. Are
JG> you sure it is the message that is obtuse?
I'm sure. And this proves it. I wasn't talking about the message.
NS> is the center of the universe at that time? Certainly, there can
NS> be more than one center, but they have to occupy the same space.
NS> My mom is 3500 miles away. You're not very good with either logic
NS> or math, are you? In order to have a center, something has to have
NS> boundries. And infinite surface or space or line could have no
NS> center because there are no boundries to measure center from.
NS> Also, if I'm the center of the universe, why aren't *I* god?
JG> Why would they have to occupy the same space ?
Prove they don't/
JG> The center of an infinite universe would depend on the position you
JG> are considering it from.
Spatially incorrect.
JG> You and your mom have your own universes, that overlap each
JG> other.
Okay, prove there are more than one universe.
JG> Even in two two dimensional circles you could use to represent
JG> your universe and your moms universe, you would overlap them to show
JG> how the center of one universe does not have to occupy the same space
JG> as the center of your moms universe.
But you weren't talking about individual's universes, a very subjective
thing. You said, and I quote (capitalization emphasis added by me):
JG> I do have a clue. The truth is that THE UNIVERSE IS man centered.
JG> In fact if you think about it YOU
is
JG> the center of THE UNIVERSE. Think about it. Especially if THE UNIVERSE
JG> is infinite, and we have no reason to believ that IT isn't.
JG> In an infinite universe, any particular spot in it is the center of
JG> it. Now on a more personal level, who is the center of YOU'RE universe
JG> ? YOU are, everything else is outside of it and surrounding you, YOU
JG> are the center of your universe and THE UNIVERSE. Now if you want to
JG> define a "solar system" as a system that revolves around a sun, then
JG> indeed you are not the center of the solatr system, but you still
JG> remain the center of THE UNIVERSE. :-)
Now, you made mention of "your universe" once, "You're universe" (sic)
once, and THE universe about five or so times. And you said that any
individual was the center of their universe (something I'm not arguing
with,) and THE universe. For personal universes that may be true, but
its patently impossible for THE universe to have either more than one
center (if its finite) or any center at all (if its infinite). Consult
your geometry again. To find the center of something, you have to
define its boundries. An infinite universe would have no boundries,
ergo, no center. Period.
JG> Also you have yourself as the indicator of the center of your
JG> universe, there is no need for boundaries to measure.
Again, with no boundries, there can be no center. Exactly how far back
did I lose you?
... Romans 1:28-30: YHVH causes people to be without understanding.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 16 Mar 96 12:08:58
EID:90d4 20706100
Re: Kenneth is atheist:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> WHy try to make things complicated if they don't have to be.
NS> Because he's not being uncomplicated, he's being stupid. He
JG> Are you trying to impress other with how smart you are by calling
JG> people who do not share your opinions "stupid" ?
No, I do that by showing how much in error they are.
JG> Do you really need these kind of tactics to support your own ideas.
We weren't dealing with my ideas, we were dealing with his. He made a
statement entirely without fact, out of ignorance, stating something
that was patently stupid. I called it (as you have said on at least
one ocassion) as I saw it. It was a stupid thing to say. He was
stupid to say it . . . he spoke without thinking or making sure his
facts were in order.
JG> DO they not stand up without such remarks ?
We weren't talking about my ideas, we were talking about his. And his
stand up not at all.
NS> (ACT 14#:12)..Jupiter..........("Zeus-Pater").
NS> (ACT 14#:12)..Mercurius/Mercury
NS> aspect of Baal).
NS> (NUM 25#:3)...Baal-peor........(Moabite regional variation/aspect
NS> of Baal).
JG> The very first commandment says "Thou shalt have no other gods before
JG> me. While the bible and God recognizes that man can choose to make
JG> anything his god, from money to drugs to sex, the sun the moon etc etc
JG> etc, who or whatever this god is, says that to make any of these other
JG> gods the one you serve, is to bring destruction upon your soul.
The point wasn't what was a god, the point he was making was that there
WERE no other gods. What I said, and what you are saying here both go
a long way to disprove his point. Wise up.
JG> Let's take drugs as a good example. WHat happens to a person who
JG> chooses to make drugs their god ?
Again, not the venue of this discussion. The discussion was about if
other gods existed or were in the bible.
JG> BTW I would appreciate it if you would stop calling people who have
a
JG> different perception of life than you do, "stupid".
And I would appreciate it if you didn't put words into other people's
mouths, like the things you've said about Karen, or about denigrating
me for the words of someone else. But life is full of disappointment.
JG> Of course I am not your god, so you can continue to do so if you
JG> wish.
I think we both breathe easier on this point. Not that I need your
permission.
JG> Kinda makes you like god in a way doesnt it?
Okay folks, does this technically make me a god too? Dave, JJ,
everyone in the pantheon . . . have I ascended?
Gee, Jim, no wonder you have a skewed sense of godhood.
JG> But then the moderator of this base is even more like god in that
JG> he/she can twit any of us right out of this universe :-)
Styx? A god? I don't think the use of a twit filter designates anyone
as a god, but I will allow you your beliefs in this, even though I
personally think them stupid.
... Jim's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:24:58
EID:2d8f 20707b00
Re: Pharaoh Forced to Sin:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
MH> That was after the eighth plague. By that time, God had chosen to
MH> make an example of him -- inspired by his hardening his own heart over
MH> the first five plagues.
MH> All Pharoah had to do was free the Hebrews and repent before their
MH> God OF HIS OWN FREE WILL BEFORE GOD HAD TO RESORT TO REPEATED COERCION
MH> and I've no doubt that God would have forgiven him and blessed his
MH> people.
JG> What are we suppose to feel sorry for the Pharoah and Curse God for
JG> his wretched treatment of the Pharoah ?
JG> DUH ?
JG> I have to apologize for the above comment because it implies "stupid"
JG> which I didn't like your use of. My apologies.
Not at all. I expect it of you by now, after how you jumped on me
first thing when entering this forum because of someone else's words
that I happened to quote, after witnessing your treatment of Karen,
etc., and so on.
NS> You mean other than that god stopped Pharoah from complying and
NS> therefor caused the deaths of untold innocents that the Pharoah
NS> probably felt bad for, for no other reason than god was having a
NS> shit-fit?
JG> Let's just say God delayed the action in order to accomplish his
JG> purpose, which was to allow the timing of the release and then
JG> subsequent chase by the egyptians to coincide with the earthquake
JG> that allowed the israelis to cross the red sea while drowning the
JG> pursuing egyptian army.
This and the following implies that you don't believe you god is
omniprescent, all powerful, etc. Is this so? (Your belief, I mean.)
JG> God knew that the Pharoah would not let the Israelites go free. But
JG> in order to save the Israelites from the Egyptians he had to
JG> influence the spirit of the Pharoah to a certain degree for timing
JG> purposes. As I said in my personal perception of god, I see God as a
JG> "spirit". I do not believe that god actually takes physical means
JG> himself to accomplish many of his feats. First he warns people of
JG> natural events about to take place and then uses them in his purposes.
JG> Second, he gives people orders to do things which affect the natural
JG> world in a natural way in accordance with the laws of nature and the
JG> universe.
JG> But hey that's just my limited perception of God.
But it still doesn't excuse your god for punishing innocents (the
Egyptian people) for the behavior of one man (who wasn't even a Xtian
and was forced to act that way by your god . . . I'm talking about
Pharoah, of course) in acting as your god made him act. I may be
speaking to blank aether here, though, since your opinion on the death
of innocents is well known . . . i. e., it may have been okay today, it
may have been more okay a long time ago, or it may be okay for a joke.
I look at the news of those poor children and their teacher in Scotland
and I see no difference between the madman that did that and your god,
_especially_ since you perform lip service to subscribing to the idea
that it was okay. You try to foist it off on the barbarianism of
ancient times, Mike Hardy tries to justify it as his god preventing
those sinners from greater evil, etc. But the truth is this: no
innocent should ever have to suffer for another's actions; no woman
deserves to be enslaved, raped, or killed and no child deserves death
or worse. I don't expect you to understand this about your god, the
programming is already too far advanced. But when I read your post
about the humaneness of killing the women and children my hackles just
went up. And for all of their posturing, etc., the only Xtian here
locally that I saw that seemed to speak against it was Al Schroeder. I
bet you have no children, but we know that Al does, and that I do.
And, for my part, I will keep my children as far away as possible from
such a dysfunctional and bloodthirsty entity.
... 1Samuel 18:27: David murders 200 Philistines & cuts off foreskins.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Tennessee Commandment
|Date: 16 Mar 96 15:37:14
EID:000c 20707ca0
Re: Tennessee Commandment:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> What's wrong with that ? As long as it isn't a law. What is wrong
JG> with encouraging people to post rules such as
JG> Thou shalt not kill
JG> Thou shalt not steal
NS> In the first place, what you are quoting is not the Decalogue,
NS> or Ten Commandments.
JG> I'm not really interested in technical stuff.
Yep, no reason to follow the truth. A fact is inconvenient, just throw
it out. It should outrage and sadden you and every other Xtian around
that non-believers know your scriptures better than you do, and that
most of the fact that we're unbelievers is because of what we read
there. And, btw, it WOULD be a law if it was passed.
JG> The idea and concept is more important to me.
Except how will you know what the ideas and concepts of the 10
Commandments/Decalogue are unless you _FIND_ out what the facts on them
are?
JG> And then encouraging people to abide by them.
NS> Its one short step from encouraging to mandating.
JG> I don't think that is such a short step myself.
Forcing people to display them under threat of law is mandating. It
CERTAINLY isn't freedom of religion. Otherwise, why don't we post all
the other laws, divine or otherwise, from all the other cultures that
make this country great, and expect everyone to abide by them as well?
I tell you what, I'll even start the ball rolling by posting some of
the Brehon laws, so you know the rules by which the people who became
the Celts had to live. The laws go back 3000 years, so they're just as
timely as those of Moses. Look for them in another post.
JG> And how far away is it from freedom of speech and expression of ideas.
JG> No body is mandating a person must do so.
Ordering that it be there as a function of law is mandating it. Can't
you understand that?
JG> It is like having a little
JG> thing on your wall that says "God Bless Our Home".
Crap. Its nowhere close to being like that; just suppose the police come
over and forced you to put up a little sign like that on a public
building, or even on your house. Wouldn't they be infringing on your
COnstitutional rights then? Tell me when you finally understand this.
NS> Now you're really being unread. Let me quote for you the Decalogue
NS> (Ten Commandments) of the bible. I'm referring to the Decalogue
NS> from Exodus 34:11-27, later broken and rescribed by Moses (I added
NS> the numbers for edification purposes):
JG> Who cares about the "Decalogue" Jesus said the ten commandments and
JG> "all the laws of moses" would be fulfilled if we followed two simple
JG> Commandmenst.
JG> 1) Love God completely.
JG> 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.
BUT its not _these_ two commandments that are being put up to a vote
for forced posting. Can you read at ALL, Jim?
JG> It is the pharisees and sadducees who liked to play around with the
JG> technical words of the law while ignoring the spiritual intent of
JG> them.
Immaterial to the venue of this discussion. We're talking about the
loss of religious freedom. And you _can't_ understand.
NS> Note that there are no demands to love parents, none about
NS> killing, adultery, stealing, bearing false witness, or coveting.
NS> Get a clue.
JG> Oh excuse me. I guess then because there are no demands to love
JG> parents, you would take that as an okay to hate your parents ?
Well, hell, Jim, I was pointing out the differences for you so that you
could make an informed opinion . . . but I see the futility of that.
So you resort to the old debater's lie of charging me with being for
something I just happen to comment on, regardless of if I have
expressed that wish or not? What a liar.
JG> And you want me to "get a clue".
You need one. As a matter of fact, you should buy in bulk. Let me
answer this for you another way: I want my child to love me not because
I force them to, but because I'm loveable. Live with that.
JG> Let me leave you with this anaonymous quote.
JG> "Believe what you want, you will anyway !"
I see how this applies to you. Interesting. Everyone should believe
as they wish to, don't you agree, Jim? Or would it be better to be a
fascist controlling everyone's beliefs, thoughts, words, actions, etc.?
Because you sure seem to be a good candidate for a brown shirt to me.
... "Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: All
|Sub: Brehon Laws
|Date: 16 Mar 96 16:19:15
EID:8961 20708260
I just wanted to post something that I consider relevant to the movement
in (I believe it was) Tennessee to force the posting of the Decalogue/10
Commandments of the Old Testament in public places, private houses, or
whatever. To me, if there was to be equal treatment under the law, then
we would have to post the laws of other cultures that contributed to
this country, religious or otherwise. That way, everyone would know how
to act. My contribution: the Brehon laws. They are the laws of what
became the Celts, and some of them are estimated to date to over 3,000
years before the Celts were invaded by the English. There are very many
of them, and I only have a short list, so here goes:
Every third year roads must be cleared of brambles, brush, weeds & water
to make ready for the great assembly, feast/fair [where every three
years the Brehons assembled to render judgement on matter of great
import rather than individual cases].
The creditor who holds your brooch, necklaces & rings as security for
your pledge must return them back to you to wear at the great assembly
[or be fined for your humiliation].
(freedom of) Speech is given to three: the Historian Bard for relating
tales, the Poet Bard for praise and satire, & the Brehon for rendering
judgement.
The time allotted to each Brehon for rendering judgement is long or
short depending on his dignity [or status]. In determining the length
of speech he is allowed 18 breathings per minute [early filibuster
control].
When a judge deviates from the truth a blotch will appear on his face.
For the best arable land the price is 24 cows. The price for dry,
course land is 12 dry cows.
How many thing add to the price of a piece of land? A wood, a mine,
site of a mill, a highway, a road, a great sea, river, mountain, river
falling into the sea, a cool pond for cattle. Add three cows to the
price if it's near a chieftian's house or monastery.
For stripping the bark off an oak tree, enough to tan a pair of
women's shoes, the fine is one cow-hide. The defendant must cover the
bruise with a mixture of wet clay, new milk, & cow dung.
If a man takes a woman off a horse, into the wood or on a boat and if
the family members are present they must object in writing within 24
hours or no fine will be paid.
If a woman makes an assignation with a man to come to her bed or
behind a bush the man is not guilt of rape even if she screams. If
she has not agree to the meeting, however, he is guilty as soon as
she screams.
The groom shall pay a bride-price of cattle, land, horses, gold,
silver, to the Father of the bride. Husband and wife retain
individual rights to property, goods and possessions each bring to
the marriage.
If a pregnant women craves a morsel of food and her husband
withholds it through stinginess, meanness or neglect he must pay
a fine.
The husband who, though listless, does not go to his wife in her bed
must pay a fine.
A fine of 6 cows for breaking a tribesman's two front teeth; 12
heifers for maiming a homeless man. For pulling off the hairs of a
virgin Bishop one yearling for each 20 hairs.
The doctor shall build his house over a running stream. His house
must not be slovenly or smeared with the tracks of snails. It must
have four doors that open out so the patient may be seen from every
side.
No fools, drunks or female scolds are allowed in the doctor's house
when a patient is healing there. No bad news to be brought or
talking across the bed. No grunting pigs or barking dogs outside.
If the doctor heals your wound but breaks it anew because of
carelessness, neglect or lack of skill the doctor must return his
fee and pay damages if he has further wounded you.
Whoever comes to your house you must feed and care for him no
questions asked.
It is illegal to give someone food in which a dead weasel or mouse
has been found.
The Bard who over charges for his poem shall be stripped of half his
rank in society.
If your neighbor does not repay the debt he owes you, you may prevent
him form going about his daily business. A withe-tie (for all to
see) goes around the blacksmith anvil, carpenter's axe or
tree-fellers hatchet. He is on his honor to do no work until the
debt is settled or wrong righted. If a Bard or physician is the
debtor immobilize his horse whip for both ride their circuits. The
creditor may fast in front of the debtor's house to humiliate him
until the debt is paid. [a withe is a flexible strip of willow]
... "Look at the BONES!" - Tim the Enchanter
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: All
|Sub: Brehond Laws 2/2
|Date: 16 Mar 96 16:23:18
EID:c72c 207082e0
(Continued from last post)
If a rational adult bring a simpleton into an ale house for
amusement and the simpleton injures a patron the adult who brought
him must make compensation.
The fine for killing a bond servant or slave held as pledge for a
debt is 21 cows, for a free farmer of Erin 42 cows, for a noble 42
cows plus an additional amount depending on his status. Fines are
doubled for malice aforethought.
Three days is the stay of your cattle in the pound for a quarrel in
the ale-house, injury of thy chief, overworking a valuable horse,
maiming their chained dog, disturbing a fair, great assembly,
striking or violating thy wife. Five days for satirizing a man
after his death.
A layman may drink 6 pints of ale with his dinner but a monk only
three so he is sober when prayer time arrives.
Blush fine are payable for insults or embarrassments to all persons
of every rank except the ne'er-do-well, squanderer, selfish man who
thinks only of himself, the buffoon who distorts himself before
crowds, & the professional satirist.
The blacksmith must rouse all sleeping customers before he puts the
iron in the fire to guard against injury from sparks. Those who
fall asleep again will receive no compensation.
If a chip of wood flies from carpenter's axe he is not held liable
unless he deliberately aimed the chip at the bystander.
The mill owner is exempt from liability for injury to persons caught
between the mill-stones.
. . . There, I think those should be posted on every Church around the
country myself. Some of them make an awful lot of sense, IMHO. };)
... "Always Ask the Next Question!" --Theodore Sturgeon
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 16 Mar 96 16:28:49
EID:3315 20708380
Re: children:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> In terms of "illegal" abortions, the woman is not "forced" to die.
NS> They are forced to die because they are forced to have illegal
NS> abortions, which are usually inferior to state-controlled medical
NS> procedures.
JG> I believe that the laws would allow the abortion of a child that
JG> threatened the life of the mother.
Perhaps the laws where you are. Not all such laws are that lenient.
Ever consider that?
JG> They are not "forced" to get an illegal abortion , they "choose" to
JG> get an illegal abortion.
Untrue. If they need an abortion and can't get one by law, then they
will have to go to illegal methods, which are dangerous. Thank all the
Deities for RU482, or whatever its called.
JG> It is like saying the woman who drowned her two children in her car
JG> was forced to drown them because she was not allowed to kill them
JG> legally.
I wasn't talking about children, I was talking about fetuses. Do you
know the difference.
JG> Therefore we should make murder legal.
Well, if you want, push for it. I already know how you feel about the
murdering of innocent children and women by a brutal army. If this is
your stance, go for it. Don't count on my vote, though. Should murder
be legal? I don't think so, but I'd allow as to where there might be
cases where it should be (certainly capital punishment is murder by any
definition of the word, and legal at that.), but I'm generally not for
it. I do think that abortion should be legal. And I know that they're
different things.
... "All truth is simple." Is that not doubly a lie? - Nietzsche
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder.1
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:08:28
EID:c9e7 20708900
Re: Your Daily Murder:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS> You are a barbaric idiot. I hope you toast.
NS> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you're one sick fuck,
NS> boy.
JG> But you have to take into consideration that we are not talking
JG> about the 1940's or the present American idea of morality and
JG> spirituality.
NS> So that makes it right?
JG> No one said it was right. It may have been concidered "humane" at
JG> the time. Case closed !
Give me the proof for this. Case certainly isn't closed. Look at the
definition for humane:
humane (hyUU-mAYn') --adjective
1. Characterized by kindness or compassion.
2. Marked by an emphasis on humanistic values and concerns.
[< Lat. humanus, human]
--humane'ly adverb
--humane'ness noun
So you can sit there and tell me there was no kindness or compassion
back then, that EVERYONE was a murdering barbarian? Interesting . . .
then why object to it when I state that the Jews then were? Especially
the Jews under YHVH. The truth is that there was kindness and
compassion back then (look at the Song of Songs, for instance) and
everything could have been settled in such a way so that no one had to
die. If YHVH was so superior, why didn't he take _that_ path, rather
than ordering such massacres?
And, another point, is that we're not talking about why it was bad or
good then, but rather the fact that you considered it right/humane,
evidenced by your words. And it is today. You _defended_ it for
crying out loud!
NS> But god mandated the above-mentioned behavior. You make him sound
NS> like a victim, when he's still got bloody slobber on his chin.
JG> This was the 1) perception people chose 2) all they could comprehend.
YHVH ordered it, people didn't choose it, it was mandated for them. If
not this instance (Though I'm fairly sure it applies here) but in a
hundred others. And, going back again to the Song of Songs, it is
clear from your Old Testament that they could comprehend a lot more.
So your arguments don't wash.
JG> We also have to deal with those who have no intention of listening
JG> to God. Therefore in those times to do any less than they did would
JG> have been to show weakness and not get the respect that winning a war
JG> brings.
The problem isn't that they DIDN'T listen to your god, but that they
did. C'mon Jim . . . twist those facts.
NS> So, kill those who don't believe as you do, eh? I have news for
NS> you: war is not about respect. War is about conquest. Those
NS> innocent women and children were killed by armies of god for no
NS> real reason, no matter how much you try to get the clockwork
JG> And you of course are the judge of the reasons for actions of people
JG> 10,000 years ago who you have no personal knowledge of and do not have
JG> to face in your own personal life in the future.
I am absolutely the judge of anyone who murders someone, either today or
yesterday or tomorrow, no limit on time. I am that judge because I'm a
father, a husband, a concerned member of the community. Kill or rape a
neighbor of mine, and better hope that the police get here before I
beat you too badly. Kill or rape my wife or child and the police will
never even see you. I am _that_ judge, certainly. Killing or raping
someone in the past doesn't dimminish the crime. How long is it before
its okay to have killed someone or raped them? Whats the statue of
limitation on murder? Hint: there is none.
JG> That was life in those times and that was what God had to work with.
And god made it that way.
(continued)
... 2Samuel 12:1,19: YHVH strikes David's child dead for David's sin.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder.2
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:08:38
EID:c8a7 20708900
(Continued from previous post)
NS> God mandated it, and god was responsible for it, yet to hear the
NS> Xtians speak, he had no other choice, when in fact he did.
JG> Man mandated it. Man is totally responsible for it because he chooses
JG> to ignore the words of god. Do you advance the cause of the butcherers
JG> that god wanted stopped ? Who was the aggressor ? What would happen
JG> were you to show weakness toward those who desire to kill you. They
JG> will laugh at you and take advantage of that weakness and kill you.
Read your bible, pathetic fundy. YHVH ordered or encouraged most of
those slaughters. Just as he wiped out the innocents of Egypt, etc.
JG> And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for
JG> your new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you
JG> continue the race through the virgins.
NS> What a dickless speciman of manhood.
JG> Another example of your superior intelligence I suppose ?
It doesn't take a stunning intellect to point out that your statement
here is sexist, derogatory towards women, and totally lacking in balls.
If I had to give up either, I guess I know which one _I'd_ keep.
AS> . . . I'm not blind to the offensiveness of that passage.
JG> But you are thinking in terms of todays standards and your spiritual
JG> enlightenment.
NS> It doesn't matter when it happened, it was still wrong. Period.
JG> I never said it was right . Neither are the people who attacked them.
JG> Two wrongs may not make a right, but it may save your civilization.
JG> Was killing German soldiers or Japanese soldiers "right"?
Ah, but you said it was humane and okay. There's a little difference
between innocent women and children killed and raped and the killing of
other armed soldiers. Or are you too stupid to see that?
JG> Now tell me, what do you do about these people who are intent on
JG> destroying you if you are the "bombee" ? What do you think God would
JG> tell you to do ? What do you think the people 5 or 10 THOUSAND years
JG> ago would "think" God was telling them to do. Also what would God have
JG> to tell the people to do in order to get those "bombers" to stop their
JG> aggression ?
NS> I see. The women and children and the virgins all had bombs and
NS> were picking on the superior forces of the armies of god. I had
NS> thought you stupid, but now I can only say that you're a boob, a
NS> drone, a no-necked little geek.
JG> Here you are showing your own inability to comprehend.
Nope, I was showing your inability to compose a lucid thought.
JG> I will try and stop short of calling you "stupid".
Aw, c'mon now Jim . . . why imply it when you can say it? Wuss.
JG> However I will not stop short of
JG> suggesting you are "rude" "obnoxious" and "arrogant"
Thank you. }:) I also have the ability to think for myself. You
might aspire to that, someday.
JG> because of your
JG> use of insulting people to try and make yourself look superior to them.
Jim, its so easy to show myself superior to you, if only in moral
attitude, that I don't have to resort to any other means. Why don't
you cry about it?
JG> I was making a parralel to the aggressors of today. Back then they may
JG> have "bombed" with spears and arrows only the technology has changed.
Ah, so those women and children had bows and arrows and spears? A one
year old infant with a 8 foot pike against several armored men with
swords (since they were greatly outnumbered) . . . hmmm . . . yeah, it
sure sounds like those men were most manly in offing that terrible
threat to them . . . NOT!
JG> I suggest that you also THINK THIS THROUGH !
JG> How do you stop unreasonable aggressive people from slaughtering your
JG> people if all they will respect is an equally agressive reply !
NS> Kill the women and children and rape the virgins . . . yeah,
NS> that'll get you feared but never respected . . . and it'll continue
NS> the cycle of hate and war.
JG> It will certainly curtail the immediate ability of these people to
JG> regroup and renew their aggression towards you in the future.
. . . and you continue to justify it . . . amazing . . .
(continued)
... Deuteronomy 20:16-7: YHVH gives Jebusite cities; kill everything.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder.3
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:08:54
EID:0866 20708900
(continued from last post)
JG> How do you stop unreasonable aggressive people from slaughtering your
JG> people if all they will respect is an equally agressive reply !
NS> Kill the women and children and rape the virgins . . . yeah,
NS> that'll get you feared but never respected . . . and it'll continue
NS> the cycle of hate and war.
JG> It will certainly curtail the immediate ability of these people to
JG> regroup and renew their aggression towards you in the future.
JG> It's a little difficult to continue the cycle of hate and war, without
JG> armies.
JG> Anything less will just cause them to fight back.
NS> Heavens, we certainly wouldn't want the women and children and
NS> virgins being raped to fight back while we were committing
NS> atrocities on them. You're a pig of the lowest form.
NS> I hope someone saved this for the FAQ. Fucking unbelieveable.
JG> I hope they are saving all your insults and swearing as well so they
JG> can get an idea of the mentality of the person who is doing the
JG> objecting.
Hmmm . . . a person that swears and insults compared to a person who
justifies and condones murder and rape of women and children. I
imagine it'll be a tough choice. Jim, if you think I care what anyone
else thinks of me, you're a sad boy. I like a lot of people here,
respect many of them, admire and envy a few of them, and disdain
several (guess which list you're on! Hint: no Xmas cards later this
year!) and am absolutely indifferent to their emotional attachment or
lack thereof to me. Live with it.
JG> I was talking about fighting back as a nationa and not as individuals.
So that makes it right? Lt. Calley would sure like to hear that . . .
JG> As has already been noted, there is no evidence that these "virgins"
JG> were raped or used as anything more than servants.
Yet you spoke up for using them to rebuild the population with.
Amusing, on your part, how you can't see the problem there.
JG> And from my reading of the bible many servants were treated quite
JG> well.
Certainly. You could beat one to death without censure as long as you
got him to linger three days. REAL humane. If I remember correctly,
if he died immediately, though, you had to pay a fine or something.
Does that sound balanced and humane in your book?
JG> The prodigal son for example went home thinking "even my fathers
JG> servants are better off than I am".
After his own brothers tried to kill him, if I remember the story
correctly. Yeah, the family that slays together, stays . . . er . . .
anywhere but together.
JG> And these virgins on becoming women may have voluntarily become
JG> sexually active with their captors due to their own sexual needs and
JG> urges. And also the desire to have children.
So you condone slavery? Interesting. The idea that coercion in ANY
form is a detestable blot on the soul of humanity doesn't cross your
event horizon, does it?
... Deuteronomy 20:16-7: YHVH gives Canaanite cities; kill everything.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: childish ignorance
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:12:01
EID:2020 20708980
Re: childish ignorance:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KC> We have Grass on the Earth. That's proof enough for me -- it's right
KC> in front of you. Why can't you see it?
JG> You certainly are free to believe that, pardon me if I don't give it
JG> the same credibility I do to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
NS> So, you don't believe in grass. Why is that?
JG> Somehow I think the thread and context of this message has been lost
JG> in order to make inane comments which have nothing to do with what we
JG> were discussing. A common tactic when a person wants to avoid the point
JG> being made in a message.
Ah, but you don't think at all. I didn't alter the quote. I haven't
removed anything from it that you didn't remove first. Clearly the
context is exactly as it is seen here. You may have been speaking of a
different matter, but you didn't cite it. I have done nothing wrong.
You're just an idiot. And, btw, why would I want to avoid the point,
since I wasn't involved in the argument?
... Deuteronomy 14:21: YHVH says to sell spoiled meat to foreigners.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:16:16
EID:8408 20708a00
Re: Evidence:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Scientists set up a laboratory to try and
JG> simulate the conditions of primal earth. Excuse me but are they not
JG> themselves proving that an intelligence is needed to arrange these
JG> conditions. And even then they cannot duplicate the process.
NS> You've just proven that an intelligent creator couldn't have done
NS> it. Congratulations.
JG> No I have shown that MAN has been unable to do it.
Ah, but when you say: "Excuse me but are they not themselves proving
that an intelligence is needed to arrange these conditions. And even
then they cannot duplicate the process."
You ARE making the case against an intelligent architect. Its very
clear in what you say.
JG> Man's intelligence is certainly open to question. Considering the
JG> fact that he is on the edge all by himself of making this planet
JG> uninhabitable for his own life form. Not to much smarts in that I say.
It's that old Xtian work ethic! You remember the one, where man
supposed to subdue nature, rule over the animals, etc., that all the
planet is his for his use, etc. All from your credo, m'boy.
... 2Kings 19:35: An angel of YHVH kills 185,000 men.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Death Cult.1
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:45:09
EID:d3f3 20708da0
Re: Your Daily Death Cult:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
FR> "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and
FR> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
FR> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
JG> Why do I get the feeling that this verse has been misinterpreted ?
RJ> Because you don't _want_ to believe your cultfounder said
RJ> that.
JG> I KNOW he didn't say that.
NS> Correction: you believe he didn't say that. There is a difference.
JG> And you will see in a response that I
JG> indicated the problem lies in the definition of the word "hate" that
we
JG> now use. The definition I would use for hate in this instance would
be
JG> more in the line of this one in my dictionary ... "..2. to be
JG> unwilling..". SO in this instance it would be "to be unwilling" do what
JG> your father and mother , wife and children, brothers and sister, yes,
JG> and even life itself tells you, and instead do what god is telling you
JG> instead. THEN you can be His disciple.
NS> Let's test this hypothesis:
NS> "Whoever comes to me and does not unwilling father and
NS> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
NS> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
NS> Nope, makes even less sense than before.
JG> You see what I mean.
No, I truly do not. You insist on giving the word a different
definition than you would have it have so as to avoid the embarassment
of the truth of what the word means.
JG> You do not have any desire to understand what was being said.
I don't? Believe me, I wouldn't read your trash for anything other
than clarification or understanding. When you make an error, I want to
cite it for you, just as I have here.
JG> Your only desire is to present it in a twisted confused way so that
JG> you can ridicule it.
Jim, I can do that without twisting anything. And I didn't twist the
passage at all. Don't be such a coward.
JG> I have shown how it would be expressed to make sense.
Sure, if you just rewrite Strong's and the bible and major
dictionaries, then you can make it assume any meaning you want . . .
just like the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland, for whom words have
only the meanings that he want's them to have. I had thought you an
adult, too.
JG> Just as when you translate something form french to english, you often
JG> have to change the order of the words to have the correct context, I
JG> have shown how it would make sense in the bible quotation.
You didn't change the order of the words, you changed the definitions
and put in words that weren't necessarily there before. Revisionist.
JG> You have chosen to completely ignore what I have said to play your
JG> little word game of "it doesn't make sense".
Word game? Jim, if we're every going to exchange ideas, we have to
have a common vocabulary. I point out where yours differs from the
establish norm as witnessed by your bible, a standard reference for
your bible , and both common usage and commonly used
dictionaries. Now, either you want to exchange ideas, in which case
building a common vocabulary where we can agree on the definitions is
important, or you just want to run amok, reordering and rewriting
everything to suit your whim. I realize that the latter is very
attractive, especially if you haven't a leg to stand on, know it, and
facing facts would embarass you, but try to be a man about it, okay?
JG> Again I am not impressed by your debating tactics where you pretend
to
JG> be too dense to understand how to fit the meaning into the passage.
Me? I'm not pretending to be dense, I'm asking for clarification. And
it has to fit all the sources. If you want to see the denseness poster
child, find a mirror.
(Continued)
... Deuteronomy 21:18-21: Stubborn sons should be stoned to death.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Death Cult.2
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:45:28
EID:d2b3 20708da0
(continued from last post)
NS> No, according to Strong's the word for hate being used here is
NS> miseo {mis-eh'-o}, meaning hate, to pursue with hatred, to detest.
NS> Let's check that out:
NS> "Whoever comes to me and does not detest father and
NS> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
NS> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
NS> Seems to make perfect sense this way . . .
JG> Well two out of three times up there you used the word hate to define
JG> the word hate. The third word you use is detest, means to dislike
JG> intensely.
How many lies can I count in that statment? First, I didn't define
hate with the words hate, I passed on the definition of Strong's of the
word miseo. If you don't agree with Strong's or don't like their
definition, don't bitch to me about it.
Maybe you'd understand Mr. Rogers:
Mr. Rogers: Now Jim, its very simple. The word used in the passage
under question, which is translated as hate, is a
translation of the hebrew word miseo. Can you say miseo?
Jim: Arfarble.
Mr. Rogers: Well, maybe next time. Anyway miseo, according to
Strong's, a standard biblical reference work, means to
hate, to pursue with hatred, or to detest. Can you say
detest?
Jim: Blat.
Mr. Rogers: Getting closer there, Jimmy. Now you had said that the
word used, in this case miseo, meant something else. This
is clearly not the case, according to Strong's, which is a
much more reputable source than you are, Jimmy. Can you
say reputable?
Jim: Zerubable.
Now, do I need to simplify that further, Jim?
JG> The bottom line, is that you have to have an intense desire to do what
JG> is right and an intense dislike of doing what is wrong, even if it is
JG> your mother or brother or your own desires that are telling you to do
JG> wrong.
Even if that rightness means you have to slaughter women and children,
force your children to fear you out of love, slavery, etc.? What if
the right thing means turning your back on your faith: for instance,
refusing to kill children if YHVH orders it, and walking away? Bet
you're screwed there, then.
JG> In other words if you want to rape a little baby, you should
JG> must hate that desire in yourself to follow god. If your mother tells
JG> you to rape a little baby, you must hate what your mother has said,
and
JG> follow God instead.
But if YHVH tells you to kill a baby, its okay?
JG> But why explain this to someone who really isn't interested in the
JG> "truth" but just wants to ridicule another persons idea so he can be
JG> "right" no matter what the "truth" is.
Aw, Jimmy, did I hurt your feelings? tsk tsk. The truth of it is that
your god is a deceitful lying murder that lives to destroy the weak and
helpless, while allowing people who are strong but that still destroy
his commandments to flourish and even receive divine blessing. Your
god as portrayed throughout history and in your own religious text, is a
thug, and I'm pointing it out. THAT is the truth.
JG> You see how easy it is to not want to know the truth, and the reason
JG> behind the denial of the truth. PRIDE. You have to be right so damn
the
JG> truth and full speed ahead.
Jim, if you can PROVE me wrong, then please do so. Then I will not be
prideful. But that would require you to prove certain things within
established definitions. You want to rewrite stuff as you go and
change the meanings, I detest that and won't allow it. If you have the
chestnuts for it, the debate as true debaters do, not with the mishmash
of revisionism and smoke and fog.
... Exodus 21:20-1: OK to beat slave to death if he lingers a few days.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:49:03
EID:ac58 20708e20
Re: Your Daily Murder:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> It was said "tongue in cheek"... but we are talking about a primitive
JG> and savage time and people. Maybe it is the only way they could
JG> understand they had to stop their savagery.
NS> This is ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack. Your god told
. . . THEM TO DO IT! (Cut out the rest of my quote to make me look bad,
eh? Twerp.)
JG> I have already explained this to the people who matter.
You have explained it to no one. And I'm incensed that you would think
it an okay thing.
JG> I don't have timne to waste trying to explain it to you.
You haven't tried to explain it to me, either. You've attempted to
justify it, but that's all.
JG> Kind of reminds me of the verse.
JG> "Don't throw your pearls before swine for they will just trample them
JG> into the dirt."
Ah, but you're assuming that you have pearls, Jim, though that clearly
has not been established, least of all through your words or actions.
If they exist (and I hope I'm not begging the question here), they
probably are the size of pearls.
... Deuteronomy 28:53: You shall eat sons, daughters, fathers, & friends.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:56:01
EID:cb97 20708f00
Re: Your Daily Death Cult:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> It is NOT a question of being superior, it is merely a question of
JG> responsibility. It is not a question of being subordinate, it is a
JG> question of being trusting.
JG> It is not a question of "obedience" like a dog, It is a question of
JG> willingness. If the woman is "unwilling" then that is her choice. But
JG> what does that do to the relationship ? That means she doesn't trust
JG> her husband to make the right choice, and what is love without trust
JG> and what is a marriage without love?
NS> Then why can't the husband be subordinate to the wife? There's
NS> nothing making the husband superior to the wife, is there?
JG> Then we would be saying why can't the wife be subordinate to the
JG> husband.
Avoid the question and run run away . . . Answer it!
JG> But I would say basically it makes more sense for the
JG> physically stronger person
Women have better lower body strength, men upper body. Men have
greater stamina, women have better endurance. Men have better
coordination, women have stronger hearts. Men have better spatial
coordination, women have more specialized memory of objects and
locations. Plus, its not a caveman time: there were many women
warriors in the world before, during, and after this time, to name a
few: the Scythians, the Celts, the Goths, certain aboriginal tribes,
etc. So which one was the stronger?
JG> to bear the responsibility , especially
JG> in the past where it was necessary for purposes of protection and
JG> lower factor of intimidation. The man has nearly always been
JG> considered the provider and the protector, making him less likely to
JG> make decisions out of fear or intimidation.
So why does that okay it today, if we give that you may be right about
women's conditions in the past (something I personally don't believe)?
JG> But as I said I don't consider it being "subordinate" as much as
JG> trusting the man to do that which he is suited for by nature. The woman
JG> is physically the one who must bear the children.
And the man is the only one that transfers genetic materials. Both are
equally important. So why shouldn't the men be subordinate to the
women, especially today?
... 1Peter 3:1-2: Women should talk to husbands in fear.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: cult evaluation form
|Date: 16 Mar 96 17:58:21
EID:6787 20708f40
Re: cult evaluation form:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> It's a saying of Jesus. But who knows ? Could mars be a spiritual
JG> planet ? Some say Jupiter is.
NS> I suppose that if you were falling towards Jupiter, you could get
NS> spiritual. You'd also have a soiled space suit. BTW, there is no
NS> surface to Jupiter that I know of . . . it's a gas giant.
JG> WHo says spirits need a surface?
So Jupiter the planet is also a spirit? Heh.
JG> Do you see that up there anywhere.
Nope, not in your post NOR in mine.
JG> You know you are just plain annoying and iritating and I doubt that
I
JG> will bother responding to your meaningless replies anymore.
Ah, Jim . . . and I thought you hadn't noticed! Come now, give us a
kiss and make up . . . };)
... 2Samuel 6:2-23: Micah rebukes naked David; YHVH makes barren for life.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Lon S. Mabon
|Sub: Re: Who's who...
|Date: 16 Mar 96 18:00:46
EID:8ca3 20709000
Who's who...:
1% Al Schroeder, 10% Lon S. Mabon,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
> LSM> Interesting origin lines here, folks. Keep tabs on those posting
> LSM> times, Fredric...this just might be a new 'staal' alias:
> Jim. Enough games.
LSM> C,mon, Al. Let's lighten up a bit, eh Al? Just a little joke....
LSM>
LSM> Goodbye!
. . . that'll be the day. Congrats to everyone who helped to reveal
the liar Jim Staal yet again! You know who you are. Heh.
... Jesus was Jewish. God, on the other hand, _is_ a Christian. - J.Staal
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: DAVID RICE
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: 14c
|Date: 15 Mar 96 13:15:00
EID:cd26 206f69e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Preston Simpson <=-
>>EB> example, the grass near a highway always shows
>>EB> that its millions years old, when one uses carbon
>>EB> 14 dating. This is due to the burning of fossil
>>EB> fuels which contributes to a higher ratio of
>>EB> "old" carbon(14) dioxide to carbon-12 dioxide.
>PS> Okay. Just for gags, where's your reference? Not that
>PS> I'm doubting you; it sounds perfectly plausible.
JH> It sounds perfectly rediculous.
JH> C-14 isn't "Old" carbon.
JH> If anything, it's "New" and has a limited lifetime.
I'm no rocket scientist (er, make that petrochemist and
physicist), but I thought that dating grass using 14c is
not possible--- it would have to be many decades dead
before a discernable amount of carbon 14 decayed, and
even then the "age" result would be outside the error
margins.
Either I've misunderstood 14c testingm, or someone is telling
Preston fables.
... Bosnian Bumpersticker: Religion Stopped 25,000 Beating Hearts!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEVIN D. MCKENZIE
|Sub: Tennessee commandments
|Date: 15 Mar 96 13:25:00
EID:4eca 206f6b20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jim Germiquet <=-
> JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to RYAN SHAW:
>JG> What's wrong with that ? As long as it isn't a law. What
>JG> is wrong with encouraging people to post rules such as
>JG>
>JG> Thou shalt not kill
>JG> Thou shalt not steal
>JG> etc
>JG>
>JG> And then encouraging people to abide by them.
KDM> Because they are *Christian* laws, that's why.
Demanding that people refrain from killing and stealing are
not "Christian laws." They are crimes because such acts are
wrong.
KDM> Especially "Thou shalt remember the Sabbath and keep it
KDM> wholly," and "Thou shalt have no Gods before me." They
KDM> are trying to force their faith on people who don't want
KDM> it.
That's the problem: the two dicta you mention are not crimes
because they are not wrongful acts. Jim Germiquet is therefore
full of shit.
... Republicans: GOP? Nope--- MWSP (Men With Short Penises).
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: ryan shaw
|To: All
|Sub: Re: mail routing [fwd]
|Date: 18 Mar 96 02:43:47
EID:18c6 20721560
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 14d143a0
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Anyone remember Chuckles? }:->
* Forwarded (from: fe_help) by ryan shaw using timEd/2 1.10+.
* Originally from Charles Rollins (1:279/22) to Jim Mitchell.
* Original dated: Sat Mar 16, 18:32
-=> Quoting Jim Mitchell to Charles Rollins <=-
CR> ... Christmas is the promise, and Easter the Proof.
JM> Yes, but the proof is in the pudding and there is no Easter pudding
JM> only Christmas pudding..
Sure there is, the Easter pudding was the raising.
... Friends are for hugging......Sending some your way.
___
- Origin: The Q-Continuum, Sissonville, WV 304-984-0622 (1:279/22)
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: MONDO-TACKY
|Date: 17 Mar 96 16:18:00
EID:41cf 20718240
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JH> Each of these monstrocities looked like they weighed about ten
JH> to fifteen pounds (I'd hate to be sitting under one when it fell
Yup! That's tacky. I wonder how I can get a distributorship?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: BIG BIRD
|Date: 17 Mar 96 16:37:00
EID:b960 207184a0
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Judith Bandsma <=-
SM> At least we allow you to wash the haggis down with all the Scotch you
SM> need!!
Nope, not me. Before you get upset...same goes to anything with
alcohol content.
... Experiencing tagline difficulties, please stand by.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: FRIENDS
|Date: 17 Mar 96 16:40:00
EID:94d2 20718500
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Ryan Shaw <=-
SM> Drink a gallon of bourbon inside of 10 minutes. The effect would be
SM> much the same!! :-)
Better than that...drink sweet vermouth while doing a couple hits of killer
acid. You're likely to know what BELIEF really is like during that
condition.
... I'm weird, but around here it's barely noticable.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:26:00
EID:37b6 20723b40
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Judith Bandsma <=-
JG> Well it would be pretty hard for women to continue to exist beyond
JG> the first generation without men. :-)
With the state of medicine today, if all men disappeared tonight, women
could continue the race. The opposite is not true. If all women disappeared,
mankind would die out completely in one generation. You just don't have
any idea of what women can really do, do you?
JG> their femininity to seduce men to fall prey to their treachery as
JG> Delilah did to Samson , to cut off his hair.
I notice that Sampson was the one thinking with his balls and being led
around by the prick. Doesn't say much for what was supposed to be UNDER
that hair, does it?
JG> In todays society, women use the politician to get extra powers over
JG> men. A woman demands to rights to abort a child, the father has no
JG> right to stop her. BUT if the woman decides to have the child,
JG> suddenly the child is the responsibility of the man and child support
Oh piffle. After 6 months only 50% of men ordered to pay child support are
doing so. After one year the numbers drop to 5%. That's ALL men ordered
to
pay support. And the man who proclaims himself a 'good christian' is less
likely than any of the others to pay to support his kids. That's from the
govt's AFDC findings.
JG> is demanded. What kind of BS is that. Rights go hand in hand with
JG> Responsibilities. If a woman demands TOTAL rights as to the life and
JG> death of that child, then she should also take TOTAL responsibility
for
JG> it if she has it. CASE CLOSED !
Right!!!! And the woman should be married but the man shouldn't. That's
about
what your argument comes down to. Sounds like my youngest son's definition
of compromise....'you do everything MY way'.
JG> But no, women whine and cry , or the protest and march. They suck up
The only protesting I've ever done was during the Vietnam war. Oh yes, and
I attended one march here in Charleston in support of the black workers
of
the medical university here that were getting paid only 50% of what their
white counterparts were. But that was mostly to get to meet Coretta Scott
King. What a wonderful, strong woman that one is.
JG> to politicians to demand superiority over the man and then
JG> hypocritically talk about "equality". Another example in this vein,
is
JG> the government has a huge child support agency that chases after men
JG> with hundreds of lawyers the woman does not have to pay for. Meanwhile
Bullshit. The first moneys collected by that agency...called the IRS, for
your information...go to pay for the lawyers and prosecution of the case.
Legal Aid (here at least) only takes **3** cases of non-support per YEAR
and even their services are not FREE. They are less expensive than most
lawyers, but you still have to pay them.
Where do you get your bullshit?
JG> ? We pay taxes , but we do not get representation ! Don't talk to me
of
JG> equality.
Right, and women don't pay taxes. Good, I'll tell the government that you
said so when I'm filling out my papers for the business next month. Jim
said that you won't tax me because I'm a woman, so I don't have to pay you.
Then I'll go out and get one of those 'free' lawyers to defend me in court.
I think you need to look a little closer at the way things ARE, not the
way
you'd like them to be.
JG> And then of course they take away the ability for men to defend
JG> themselves which used to be physical. SO now in order to stop the
JG> mental abuse of a womans bitching and nagging and put downs, men can
no
JG> longer give her a backhand across the mouth. So he has to take the
Here you get into dangerous waters, mister. I lived this and I can tell
you
that the asshole that came close to killing me got, in the way of abuse,
(at the very most) 'what would you like for breakfast?'. I drove myself
half
nuts trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. Wasn't me at all. He was
just one VERY sick son-of-a-bitch. He's dead. Best thing he ever did for
the
human race.
JG> Now before you get your back up, I am not saying this is "right" I
JG> agree it is a "sick" thing to do and that you cannot "justify" it.
Then why did you just try to justify it? Again, I truly believe that it
is
something you either do or would like to do and are too much a wimp to
carry through on. Maybe you realize that if you tried you'd get your head
handed to you...literally.
JG> What a joke. that is EXACTLY what you do to get your way. Especially
JG> in courts or with cops, or with politicians! How do you think you
JG> got all this power in the first place except with your snivelling
JG> "poor me" crap.
Bullshit. Never had a cop try to protect me from Jack's beatings, even
while I was pregnant. They'd take him around the block, tell him to think
about the baby and bring him back. My daughter died because of him....so
don't you DARE give me that 'poor misunderstood, abused male' crap. If I'd
had any power, he'd have gone to jail for that one. And every time I look
at her grave I wish he was still alive to see it, too. Maybe it would kick
him in the gut the same way it does me.
JG> And how true is the expression. Power corrupts, and
JG> absolute power corrupts absolutely. Women are becoming more and more
JG> corrupt. It is no coincidence that as soon as women got "equal"
JG> rights as men the first things they started to do was "get drunk"
JG> "smoke" "go to male strip joints" ? The very things they complained
JG> about men doing.
This is the best you can do? How lame.
JG> Oh I am quite sure you do. Ever look down to make sure you haven't
JG> grown a penis lately ?
Who would want one? That was nature's joke on the human race.
And BECAUSE I am capable of taking care of myself, and my husband knows
it,
he also knows, quite securely, that I am with him because I WANT to be...not
because I need someone to 'take care' of me. Can you say the same?
No, I don't consider myself a 'lady'. That has too many connotations of
helplessness and muddleheadedness. I am a woman. An independent, thinking,
working, capable woman. Pisses you off, doesn't it?
... A woman can be happy with any man as long as she doesn't love him.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: FAQ QUOTE?
|Date: 18 Mar 96 06:58:00
EID:07a2 20723740
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Sean Mccullough <=-
LB> Does that mean it is released for posting on the Internet? There is
LB> the beginnings of a Holysmoke web page online -- will the FAQ be made
LB> available there?
Where is it? Got the URL? I've done all kinds of searches and can't find
it. :(
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Mike Ruskai
|Sub: HOWDY
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:02:00
EID:6dd4 20723840
-=> Quoting Mike Ruskai to All <=-
MR> So, who would like to "save me", or flaunt their ring-side tickets at
MR> the border of hell where they will watch me be immolated?
There are a few who will. However, don't be afraid to dish it out as
well. Here you can say what you want as long as you don't change someone
else's words. All of George Carlin's deadly 7 are acceptable...and the
600 after them, too.
I think you're going to like this better...but you're still debating an
'operating system'.
... HolySmoke: Where fundys take themselves seriously, & no one else does.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: SATAN RUNS
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:12:00
EID:73c4 20723980
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Brad Jackson <=-
PS> who here is Satan's employee? What kind of salary does he pay? What
PS> kind of perks?
I must be. My latest Discover card statement says that my rebate owed me
is $6.66.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE FAQ /04F
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:25:00
EID:9be8 20723b20
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to All <=-
SM> My main accomplishment this time was to get it sliced into traditional
SM> FidoNet size slices. I believe this will improve the success rate at
SM> getting an intact FAQ to all Networks.
Got it all, first time out. Thanks, Sean.
... Smoreplay is what Smurfs do before Smucking.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: ryan shaw
|To: All
|Sub: Holysmoke on the Web!
|Date: 18 Mar 96 12:12:29
EID:5fc6 20726180
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 14d99761
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
The Unofficial Father, Son, and Holysmoke web site has finally made it to
the world wide web. We're taking the fight to the internet. Point your
browser to http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~rshaw.
There are some missing pictures and such, but the site is still under construction.
I am tinkering with it daily while at work and getting paid for it as well!
;)
Please note that this is not the official site. Rumor has it that the official
pages will be put up by Styx and Fredrick Leff. Stay tuned and check in
often to run the damn hit counter through the roof.
Also, commments are always welcome. However, please don't inform me that
pictures are not showing up. I am well aware of that. If you do find something
else that's amiss and not obvious to the casual web browser than click on
`pray for our souls' and email me. Also, if you have material that you'd
like posted on the page, please let me know. Submission does not mean that
it will be be placed on the site. That's up to the current web keeper.
:)
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
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SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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PATH: 152/67 8 270/101 218/801
|From: ryan shaw
|To: Mike Ruskai
|Sub: Howdy
|Date: 18 Mar 96 12:16:01
EID:f688 20726200
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 14d99763
REPLY: 1:107/634 2701841d
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Mike Ruskai spewed forth the following All:
MR> I'm getting a touch bored with OS Debate, so thought I'd drop in
MR> and ridicule a few insecure witless religious types.
MR> So, who would like to "save me", or flaunt their ring-side tickets
MR> at the border of hell where they will watch me be immolated?
MR> Mike [Team OS/2]
I see you are using one of the true OS's so you're already saved. The other
being linux. :)
Hail Satan!
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 152/8 20 67 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 152/67 8 270/101 218/801
|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: children
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:37:17
EID:62b2 20723ca0
MSGID: 1:123/67 314d13ba
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 268ce54c
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
16 Mar 96 12:48, quoting Jim Germiquet to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> Love is very real and there is evidence of love. All you have to
SS>> do is observe a mother with her new baby. Observation yields
SS>> evidence. Now, where is evidence of your god? Not evidence of
SS>> your BELIEF in your god, but evidence of god.
JG> Maybe you just choose not to see the "evidence" of those people who
do
JG> good things because they are moved by the spirit of god.
Evidence will point to a conclusion regardless of my attitude or BELIEF.
I don't "not choose" to see it. Present it.
JG> A mother with her baby ? You mean like the mother who drowned her
JG> children in her car ? That love ? Or the women who kill their unborn
JG> babies ? That kind of love ?
You jerk. That is evidence of criminal behaviour.
SS>> Do you have a point to make?
JG> Read on , it's coming up.
Straw men are not points.
JG> You demand to see a physical "god" in order to believe it exists.
JG> I demand you show me a physical "life".
JG> God is a spirit that moves within people spirit being, just as
JG> life is an energy that moves within people's physical body.
Pathetic.
JG> God is the spirit of TRUTH. And of course we all know about "denial"
JG> don't we ?
Where is your evidence?
JG> If you choose to deny the existence of such spiritual things as, love,
JG> truth, hope, faith, peace. I feel very sorry for you indeed.
This is the most obvious and pathetic straw argument that I have ever
seen. I just pointed out evidence of love. Don't put words in my mouth,
feller and save your pity for yourself.
I deny evidence for the existence of gods. Understand? Now, present your
evidence (without straw men) if you can.
|blue|
| () | Join the Blue Ribbon Anti-Censorship Campaign!
| /\ | http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 16 Mar 96 14:26:28
EID:c288 20707340
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314ad019
12 Mar 96 16:32, Norbert Sykes wrote to David "Messiah" Worrell:
NS>> BTW, does this make David officially a messiah now?
NS> D"W> There's gonna be some changes around here, I can tell you that
NS> much.
NS> Well, are we going to see your famous turning-wine-into-water miracle
NS> or are you going to feed all of us with half a hot dog and a day old
NS> bun?
Something even more difficult and miraculous - I'm going to try to give
Hardly! a brain. I'm not sure if even omnipotence can accomplish that, but
I am going to put forth the effort.
Of course, even if I succeed there is no guarantee that Mikey will actually
use what I give him.
NS> BTW, does this mean that you and JJ have to duke it out, since he's
NS> risen from the grave and is therefore probably a Messiah as well?
Or
NS> will you both open a little shop off the mall together?
With 7 billion people in the world, I think there are enough followers for
both of us.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 16 Mar 96 14:29:28
EID:2a79 207073a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314ad084
12 Mar 96 08:55, Norbert Sykes wrote to J.J. Hitt:
DJ>> The serpent was Adam's sexual member.
JH>> It talked?
NS> Sounds like a B.E.M. to me, some sort of E.T. . . . };) Or maybe
NS> this is that little extra something that Xtians get when they get
NS> saved? A talking winkie . . . what a concept . . .
A talking penis takes some of the pleasure out of masturbation, doesn't
it? What if it wants to cuddle afterwards? :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: children
|Date: 15 Mar 96 22:49:51
EID:1016 206fb620
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149f462
REPLY: 1:3615/51 000237b0
15 Mar 96 01:17, Larry Bevard wrote to Preston Simpson:
PS>JG>> Of course we must teach our children the proper way to deal
PS>JG>> with their sexual urges. That is a moot point in terms of
PS>JG>> abortion. Once the
PS>>
PS>> Excellent. Let's start with sex education classes--explicit ones.
PS>> None of this dancing around the issue, no being puritanical about
PS>> it. Tell people exactly what can happen when they have sex, and
PS>> what they can do to make it safer for themselves and their
PS>> potential offspring.
LB> I don't think this is what Jim means, after all, in areas that
LB> have explicit sex education in the schools, the praganacy rate has
LB> gone up.
Which areas would these be? Just how "explicit" was the sex education? Where
do you get your statistics?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: elvis lution
|Date: 15 Mar 96 22:52:38
EID:3a0d 206fb680
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149f60e
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89404396
14 Mar 96 21:42, Michael Hardy wrote to Martin Goldberg:
MG>> need to expalin what had happened in our history, not a need to
MG>> preserve evolution as evolution stand on its own.
MH> Right, but what I meant was that the *concept* of puntuated
MH> equilibrium had to be developed, because the fossil evidence didn't
MH> support Darwinian gradualism.
When it was determined that Newton's theory of gravity did not properly
predict the motion of Mecury around the Sun, another theory had to be developed.
Does this make Newton's theory *wrong*?
MH> See, evolutionists will assure us that the *fact* of evolution
MH> is beyond doubt -- the only questions are over details and
MH> processes.
Punk Eek is a *process* by which evolution occurs, moron. Stick to journalism,
Mikey - it's all you've got the brains for.
MH> But it seems to me that the "fact" is questionable,
MH> if no two scientists agree on a theory to explain that fact.
The differences in theories about the mechanism by which a fact occurs do
nothing to detract from the status of the fact itself. Read a biology text
sometime, ok?
MG>> You would not reject it outright. Why would you look for a
MG>> reason to reject evolution?
MH> Because I want whatever I believe to be the truth. If evolution
MH> really is well-supported by physical evidence, then I'll believe it.
MH> If it isn't, then questioning it is valid.
Why not look for yourself, Mikey, instead of relying on your betters to
do your thinking for you. Take some classes in biology and anthropology.
Look at the data yourself. Oh, waitaminute, I forgot that kind of thing
takes *time*, and you couldn't grovel before your little schoolyard bully
as much if you took the time to educate yourself on the subject.
Would someone forward this to Mikey, please? Thanks.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: freedom
|Date: 15 Mar 96 23:00:21
EID:5c42 206fb800
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149f733
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8940439B
14 Mar 96 22:38, Michael Hardy wrote to Norbert Sykes:
NS>> Roger didn't say that Freedom = Extortion. He obviously showed
NS>> that he thought being forced to love meant the contradiction (to
NS>> him) of freedom, i. e., extortion.
MH> But how is being free to not love God the same as "being forced to
MH> love?"
Because we are not free to not love God. Remember that "hell" thing? Yes,
I know *you* don't consider Hell to be eternal torment, but why should we
give more weight to your interpretation of Hell that we do to all the billions
of Christians who have gone before you?
Have you ever thought about the fact that, whatever Hell is actually like,
your God has it set up so that both Ghandi and Dahlmer are going to spend
eternity there?
Would someone forward this to Mikey, please? Thanks.
---
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hitler
|Date: 15 Mar 96 23:03:30
EID:09ed 206fb860
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149f7a8
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8940439C
14 Mar 96 22:42, Michael Hardy wrote to Marilyn Burge:
MB>> Or, as an alternative, maybe Jehovah's in Hell, paying for what
MB>> he did to the Midianites.
MB>> Or, another possibility is that old Do-As-I-Say-And-Not-As-I-So
MB>> Jehovah has forgiven himself, but does not see fit to forgive
MB>> mere mortals for doing the same thing.
MH> Or maybe Jehovah, as creator and judge of all mankind, has the right
MH> to destroy people who sacrifice their own children to false gods.
You are forgetting that Jehovah didn't destroy the Midianites. He had to
have the Israelites help him, remember?
Regardless, got any evidence that the Midianites were "sacrafic[ing] their
own children to false Gods"? Or do you jsut have the testimony of the people
who destroyed them?
Would someone forward this to Mikey, please? Thanks.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: legislation
|Date: 15 Mar 96 23:05:39
EID:195e 206fb8a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149f7f7
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89404391
14 Mar 96 21:24, Michael Hardy wrote to Martin Goldberg:
MH> Oh, they can. But the underlying motivation is ultimately religious,
MH> no matter what the surface reasoning. A law that says "Don't take
MH> someone else's property" is ultimately rooted in the conviction that
MH> you *should* not take someone else's property, because it is wrong.
MH> "Wrong" is an abstract concept, not always based in pragmatism. If it
MH> were pure pragmatism, the rule would be "Don't take your
MH> neighbor's property unless your sure you can get away with it."
Are you really this clueless, Mikey?
Would someone please forward this to Hardly? Thanks.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: message for MB
|Date: 16 Mar 96 14:15:10
EID:f47a 207071e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314aced2
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89404390
Don't have the balls to reply to me directly, Mikey? What are you afraid
of?
14 Mar 96 21:20, Michael Hardy wrote to Lynda Bustilloz:
MH>> Like the religion-based laws against stealing other peoples'
MH>> property? No, I don't think we should repeal those laws.
An>> Are you claiming Hammurabi was a god, Mikey? So much for you
An>> being a Christian.
MH> No, I'm obviously not claiming that. Why do so many atheists think
MH> there is some kind of point to be scored in grossly misrepresenting
MH> another's argument, especially when the error is so baldly obvious?
Kinda like fallacious claims made by dishonest Christians like yourself,
huh? If modern laws against stealing are based in religion, you're going
to have to show what religion Hammurabi was and why you follow your religion
instead of his. Or are you making the claim that the Ten Commandments predate
Hammurabi?
MH> The point is that *all* laws are based on religious ideas.
That's a real nice claim you've got there. Got any evidence to back it up?
MH> Even laws that protect the lives or property of others are
MH> based on the idea that the lives and property of others *should*
MH> be protected.
Yet another nice claim. I trust you have evidence to back it up?
MH> ... There is no such thing as a stupid question. But yours comes
MH> close.
Weren't you recently taking Judith to task for using such taglines, Mikey?
Does your hypocrisy know no bounds?
Would someone please forward this to Hardly? Thanks.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: one more time
|Date: 15 Mar 96 23:06:41
EID:de7f 206fb8c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149f827
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63bde66f
14 Mar 96 19:27, Martin Goldberg wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> If you weren't such a bonehead, Hardly, people wouldn't feel they
DW>> had to use hammers to get through to you. Would someone please
DW>> forward this to Mikey? Thanks.
MG> No need. Just post to him as you usually would using a differnt name
MG> or your named misspelled.
I considered that, but it is too "staalish" for my tastes.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 16 Mar 96 14:24:38
EID:283d 20707300
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314acf72
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89404395
14 Mar 96 21:39, Michael Hardy wrote to Martin Goldberg:
MH> satisfaction. If an atheist wants to be giving and generous, there's
MH> no reason he can't. But if he wants to be selfish and dishonest,
MH> there's no reason he shouldn't. You may disagree with his decisions,
MH> but there is no higher standard to judge him by.
Is God good because he chooses to be good, or is he good because he is incapable
of evil?
Would someone forward this to Mikey please? Thanks.
---
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|From: George M00th
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Steve Wallis played backwards
|Date: 15 Mar 96 22:42:59
EID:1214 206fb540
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3149f2a8
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63bd052b
14 Mar 96 17:44, J.J. Hitt wrote to Rob Burcham:
JH> (BYW, I have a comeing installment of Our Daily Alien which
JH> deals with Jimi Hendrix's visions of the Space Brothers. Has
JH> anyone seen George Mooth lately?)
You rang?
Insert some meaningless bible verses here - choose your own.
---
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|From: Ann Nunn
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: the basis of morality
|Date: 17 Mar 96 21:50:00
EID:7d30 2071ae40
MSGID: 1:396/93.0 89440F97
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 93-0891
MH> No, I'm obviously not claiming that. Why do so many atheists think
MH> there is some kind of point to be scored in grossly misrepresenting
MH> another's argument, especially when the error is so baldly obvious?
Are you claiming that atheists are somehow over-represented in the
commission of this error?
MH> The point is that *all* laws are based on religious ideas. Even laws
MH> that protect the lives or property of others are based on the idea that
MH> the lives and property of others *should* be protected. That is a moral
MH> idea, and morality is derived from one's view of the deity, or lack
MH> thereof.
Not so; morality is not derived from one's view of any deity, but from
one's view of how best to get along in a social context. Treating
others as you would wish to be treated is the highest morality, though
gods or boogeymen are sometimes employed to teach this concept to
children and imbeciles. I will agree that all laws are based on
philosophical ideas, but not on religious ideas.
Ann
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * Tell the Volcano God that we are all out of virgins!
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Don Martin
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:11:05
EID:4fe3 20726960
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba31
David Johnston said "Angels Or Demons???" to Anthony Grigor-Scott,
adding:
-> DJ> The serpent was Adam's sexual member.
-> So THAT'S whom you seranade in the bathroom. Does your `serpent'
-> speak back to you? Is it on its belly, or does it still have its
-> legs?
-> This is about the most absurd suggestion I have ever heard.
DJ> Tough. You have two naked kids with a lot of leisure time. She is
DJ> tempted by something shaped more or less like a section of garden
DJ> hose. So she tempts Adam with a "fruit". The fruit in question would
DJ> not have been an apple, because apples weren't big in the Middle East.
DJ> Most likely it was a fig, the fruit most likely to be seen by a Middle
DJ> Eastern nomad. Figs are round and dark...rather like an undersized
DJ> plum. Ever wonder why adolescents used to call a girl's virginity her
DJ> "cherry?"
Even better--It is quite common for eastern
Mediterranian varieties of fig to ripen better if split
open. This the orchardists do, leaving the fruit to ripen
and dry on the tree. "Fancy pack" dried figs often display
the figs as picked, split side up.
With that in mind, does it come as any surprise that the
fig represents the pudendum in Mediterranian iconography?
The "sign of the fig" (thrumb tip thrust between index and
middle fingers) plays on the same association, the thumb
standing clitorally within the vulvic embrace of the
fingers. This is and was widely used as a gesture of
derision and may be seen in German depictions of the Passion
from the 15th century, among other places. "I care nat a
figge," quod Chaucer; "a fig for't," responds Shakespeare.
As Scot Bear might say, some fruits get around more than
others.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:37:12
EID:8705 20726ca0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba32
REPLY: 1:3819/163 314BA3F2
Mark Barnett said "ANGEL FUNDY" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> BJ>And where is your evidence for these angels? The Bible? And where
is you
DM> BJ>evidence that the Bible is anything more then another fictional book?
DM> MB> Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
DM> Well, you can start with "Noah's Flood" and work your
DM>way on through, taking everything for which there is no
DM>corroborating evidence. That's the fiction. What is left,
DM>rather the smaller part, is Jewish history.
MB> Ok lets try some of them you name them I will give them a shot. you
MB> will more that likely come out ahead as I am not the Bible student I
MB> should be, but i'm working on it and this should be good practice. ok
MB> let's see your 1 to me 0 on the flood, whats next.
Unles you happen to have some with you to present, no
one has as yet provided any corroborating evidence for any
supernatural beings (don't feel bad about it--Zeus, Kali,
Jou Jou, Quetzalcoatl, and Odin are in the same boat as
Jehovah, Jesus, and Satan on this one).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:43:51
EID:69d4 20726d60
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba33
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 268ce563
Patting himself on the back for his inability to
understand English, Jim Germiquet said "A LITTLE HELP FROM
SP" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> Notice that in Dave's redaction, he left a complete independent
DM> clause: subject -- verb -- predicate adjective: it is capable of
DM> standing alone as a basic unit of discourse. Your attempt with his
DM> contains no verb and therefore not an independent clause nor much of
DM> anything else. With such linguistic incompetence, you show a great
DM> deal of sheer, putrescent gall when you accuse anyone else of making
DM> your stuff meaningless.
JG> I grow weary of these word games, they are meaningless and I rather
JG> doubt I will bother responding to them anymore. Time to adjust my TWIT
JG> filter which has been so aptly named.
That would be perfect for everybody. When I take the
time to insult a halfwit, I am NOT writing to the halfwit,
but to the general audience all around us who will enjoy the
laugh. Your putting me on your twit filter will leave me
free to snipe at the best idiocies in your posts without the
annoying waste of time of having to deal with your vapid
replies.
Go for it.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Better then This!
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:50:35
EID:73d3 20726e40
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba34
Investing heavily in a Centigrade thermometer to make his IQ
higher than his temperature, Brad Jackson said "Better then
This!" to Dan Ceppa, adding:
BJ> As I can see from your last 6 messages you don't have anything
BJ> new to say.
And you somehow imagine that _you_ do? Arrogance.
BJ> Evan the true satan
BJ> lovers have more to say then you do!
Name one "true satan lover" here, apart from Asmodiddly.
Got any evidence for this satan thing yet--any evidence
distinguishable from the workings of human imagination, that
is?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 18 Mar 96 14:17:20
EID:7487 20727220
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba35
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314c9b10
Preston Simpson said "Cult Christianity" to Don Martin,
adding:
PS> tough row to hoe, so to speak. We have to deal with life on realistic
PS> terms and it can be a hard thing to admit that shit happens and no
PS> invisible god is going to fix it.
DM> Or even worse, that there is no invisible god to blame
DM> it on.
PS> Indeed. Sometimes, it's a real pain in the ass. But it could be worse.
PS> Imagine living in the Bible Belt and everyone being able to know that
PS> you're an agnostic/atheist/goat-worshipper/tree-fucker/whatever-non-
PS> Christian on sight.
Or as it has been said to me on the streets of
Greenwood, Mississippi, "Yew ain' frum araund hieh, air
yuh?" Since all of them are (judging by what we see around
here) capable of spotting a Not Real, True Christian at
100 yards, you can imagine how finely attuned to the likes
of us they are.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 18 Mar 96 15:32:27
EID:8e0b 20727c00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba36
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 268ce533
In hushed tones of deepest respect, Jim Germiquet said
"Adolph Hitler" to Chad Osten, adding:
CO> I wouldn't see him as a "satan" figure, but somebody who is sick
CO> psychologically (really nothing biblical about it).
JG> What is the bible ? It is a perception written by people of another
JG> time who may have described psycological afflictions, in terms of
JG> demonic possession. I think the key is to translate biblical references
JG> into modern day terminology and perceptions.
Wonderful--find somebody qualified to translate ancient
psychoses into modern English and we shall have the first
clear Bible.
Good News for Modern Schizoids!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 18 Mar 96 15:32:27
EID:69d4 20727c00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba37
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 268ce536
While wrenching his right shoulder out of joint patting
himself on the back (his left was out of danger, that hand
being otherwise occupied) Jim Germiquet said "A LITTLE HELP
FROM SP" to Dan Ceppa, adding:
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited.
DC> He does??? Why not prove the evidence that your god even exists
DC> before you tell us what you claim your god can do?
JG> I have already dealt with the illogic of demanding physical proof
JG> of a spiritual entity.
To your complete satisfaction, no doubt. Stangely
enough, I fail to hear any choruses of assent from anyone
else.
I don't suppose that you've noticed that Ceppa asks for
"evidence" and you respond with "proof", a typical fundy
idiocy (see the FAQ). Now then, have you any EVIDENCE that
may be distinguished from the workings of human imagination
for the existence of supernatural beings, yours or anyone
else's?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 18 Mar 96 15:32:28
EID:690f 20727c00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba38
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 268ce537
Not satisfied with the damage he had already done to his
reputation in far too many posts to others, Jim Germiquet
said "Thumb-sucking Fundy" to Dan Ceppa, adding:
KS> Ah. If Hitler does it, it's bad, but if God does it, it's OK.
KS> That is some really sick shit.
JG> When did you EVER see god kill anyone ?
DC> I take it you have never read your bible.
JG> OBJECTION YOUR HONOR ...... hearsay evidence !
JG> I will rephrase my question to the witness.
JG> Mr Creppa, Have you "personally" ever seen God kill anyone ?
JG> Answer the question with a yes or no Mr Creppa.
JG> :-)
Inasmuch as only those giving good evidence of their own
mental deterioration have ever "seen" any gods do anything,
I may make so bold as to answer for Mr. Ceppa (note
spelling, cretin), "No."
Now, the instructions to the Hebrew warriors,
purportedly from the deity of your choice, to kill off all
the men, women and boy children (saving the virgin girls for
themselves, but for what purpose is left to the reader's
imagination), most of us HAVE seen personally. Or is not the
alleged word of your alleged god good enough for you?
(Probably not, given your demonstrated inability to deal
with words from any source whatsoever.)
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: John Salvi
|Date: 18 Mar 96 15:32:28
EID:8e00 20727c00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314dba39
I have been saying for years that there is no way to
tell a religious belief from any other sort of delusion, but
today it appears that one has turned up. John Salvi has just
been convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life
imprisonment for his killings of the hired help in abortion
clinics in '94. While his defense attorneys sought his
acquittal by reason of insanity, he himself did not agree
with that position (many nuts feel that they are quite
sane); the judges refused the defense request to put John on
the stand to demonstrate his mental incapacity on the
grounds that all the guy would talk about there was the
conspiracy to abort everyone's babies (looks to me as though
the defense attorneys knew what they were doing--an
inability to talk about anything except one's hobby horse is
a prima facie case for mental incapacity). The lawyers will
appeal the sentence on the grounds of this judicial
decision.
In any event, Salvi appears to me to be as nutty as a
fruitcake, and should probably be sent to the funny farm
instead of to jail (not that it makes a helluva lot of
difference--so long as we don't get another Reagan
administration trying to save money by emptying the asylums,
he stands a better chance of getting out of jail sooner than
out of the funny farm). But religionists seem disinclined to
have their beliefs written off as delusional, and as an
ironic twist on the "respect" that religions demand from the
general public, such disinclinations get supported by
judges. Letting John testify could generate some sympathy
for him and forgiveness for what he did, but only at the
expense of embarrassing Christianity.
Yeah, I know, fundy twits--he is Not a Real, True
Christian like you. Don't bother telling me.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 17 Mar 96 00:41:00
EID:1818 20710520
MSGID: 1:3819/163 314CFAD8
KS>You are using tales about a flood from other 'sources' to validate
KS>the biblical one?
No I am not I was using them as and exsample that it was a posability
because not only had the biblica scholers wroted it down but so had
scholers of another creed.
KS>Fine. If the biblical one is true, everyone but Noah and company was
KS>destroyed. Who the fuck are these OTHER people who wrote THEIR
KS>versions??????
The Son's of Noah that rebeled against god later, and founded the
other civilations in the area.
* OLX 2.1 TD * All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 17 Mar 96 01:04:00
EID:9156 20710880
MSGID: 1:3819/163 314CFAD9
DM> DM> indirect evidence that would be quite convincing, not only to
DM> MB> Sound resanable to me. But I can not give you a any evidence that
you
DM> MB> would belive. You see to me my GOD is something that I have experaced
DM> MB> in my heart.
DM> How very nice. And how does one distinguish such an
DM>experience from the operations of imagination?
No that is a topic for disagreement even in the church. For me it is a
peace and understanding that even if I am imperfect and fall short of
the grace of God that he will still love me and help me. You see I am
not "Religass" enof for most Christians. I try to live by the Bible as I
feel lead to, which is what they tell you to do but then whant you to
live by their ways. See my belives are very simple:
1. Judge not lest yea be Judged.
To me this means that I have some freinds that I do
not agree with their life styles, but it is not my place
to force my belives down their necks. But to live a
Christian life and let them no that I love them and will
pray for them.
2. Treat every one like I whant to be treated.
Very stright foward. I give respect and expect respect
in return.
3. Love everyone.
Sounds corny but true I try very hard not to hate anyone
no matter how they treat me.
That realy about all there is to my belives. other are some fine tuning
that I will not put you to sleep with.
DM> MB> Now I could say that the Bible is all the evidence you
DM> MB> need it is not.
DM> "The Bible is all the evidence you need" is said daily
DM>around here. People who say it are typically astonished that
DM>nobody pays much attention to them.
Well that is why I add "it is not". you see I was very hard to get to
the point that I belived the Bible completly. I felt that it had been
writen and translated by man to many times to be completly right.
DM> MB> Well it looks like you have done more study on the flood than anyone
I
DM> MB> know. Would you mind if I showed this to some freinds of mine in
DM> MB> Church.
DM> Be my guest. I am nothing if not vain. Other text files
DM>are available around here--one on the physics involved (that
DM>rate and amount of rainfall would have the interesting
DM>effect of heating the atmosphere well over the melting point
DM>of lead) and one on the problems of shipping and biology.
Thanks that is very nice of you.
DM> DM> Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
DM> DM> evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
DM> DM> tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic particles
DM> DM> or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the existence
of
DM> DM> enormous gravitational forces only explicable by the presence
of
DM> DM> a black hole.
DM> MB> Well I can agree on that and thank you for this post I told a Preacher
DM> MB> freind of mine about this to night at his church and he said that
our
DM> MB> argument was for nought that the stratum had been found but that
the
DM> MB> non-belivers had hid the evidence so as not to prove
DM> MB> the Bible.
DM> I have heard many hilarious things about the Flood
DM>story, but this is a keeper. For starters, how would you go
DM>about _hiding_ a global stratum of incredible thickness?
DM>Building pyramids amounts to no more than raising a pimple
DM>on a teenager's chin in comparison, in terms of the sheer
DM>labor involved. This minister wasn't named Stringfellow, by
DM>any chance, was he?
No he was not named Stringfellow, but he had about the same amount of
imangantion. Forgive me I should not have said that but I amazes me how
so many Christians become belivers and turn of their minds. Look the
Lord gave me a mind and an imagantion so should I not us them? Sorry to
get on my soap box, but like I have siad a lot of Christians do not
think that I am spiratual enof. I mean I got throw out of a church for
agreeing with the Bible on time. sorry to bore you with such trival
things but I think that a Christian should be the first to ask these
questians.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * I let my mind wander once. It never came back!
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 17 Mar 96 01:09:00
EID:2154 20710920
MSGID: 1:3819/163 314CFADA
DC> PS>So what? There are multiple accounts referring to the divinity of
Zeus.
DC> PS>Does that mean he's a real god?
DC> MB> Nope but it does not mean that his is not a real god ethier.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DC>Do you have evidence to show that Zeus is not a real god?
No that is why I said that it does not mean his is not a real god
ethier. I have three friends that worship Thor. Ok I think that they are
worshiping a false god, but I might be wrong. I guess that we will all
find out in the end. And we will all probly be suprised.
DC>... Truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off!
I like this tagline, and boy is it the truth!!!
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 17 Mar 96 13:58:00
EID:8b87 20716f40
MSGID: 1:3819/163 314CFADB
MG> MB> Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
MG>Explain to us the truth in the story of Noah and the Ark.
By the Truth in the Story of Noah are you asking what I think that the
Bible is trying to tell us or the facts about the events.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Copywight 1995 Elmer Fudd. All wights wesewved. Hehehehe
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Satan's Disciples
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: satan runs
|Date: 18 Mar 96 21:19:02
EID:e4e8 2072aa60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63f3a891
BJ> I would like to point out that the messages written to me have
BJ> dropped off, a lot!! This tells me that when satans deciples
BJ> are face with the truth, they run scared!!
y
No Brad...we just don't think that you're worth the time.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 18 Mar 96 21:22:18
EID:6526 2072aac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63f3af9b
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2600c746
>> You got me. I don't know wtf you're talking about.
SM> I believe we were discussing Pre-Wett.
SM> The mention was of the historical fact that, without the Roman
SM> Papacy's actions over the majority of a millennium, Pre-Wet would
SM> have heard of neither Bible nor Jesus -- except perhaps as part
SM> of the Quraan. ;-)
Ok....now I understand. Musta been too much scotch.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 18 Mar 96 21:28:21
EID:1373 2072ab80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63f3bdc0
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 894310C5
DC> BTW, Don Houston says "hi!"
Hmmmmm.....Never heard of him.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 18 Mar 96 21:31:18
EID:1ff9 2072abe0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63f3c5c0
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 268ce54e
JG> I see the creation all around me. Therefore there must have been
JG> a creator. Thank you for this wonderful physical proof of god
JG> the "creator".
This is not evidence. These are two indempendant things that you wnat to
be connected. Give us the evidence that they are conencted and you might
have something.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 18 Mar 96 21:33:37
EID:f685 2072ac20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63f3db5e
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 8d1a4035
JB> Gravity is, or gravity is not. Show me, please, any "grey area"
JB> about the existence of gravity.... Show me any "grey area"
JB> about the existence or lack thereof, of the quotation marks
JB> in the Biblical passage under consideration.
I am not a cosmologist. I do however dabble in the balck arts of molecular
biology. I know that as soon as a rules is made, we find the cases that
do not apply. Using this logic, one assumes that gravitational force has
the same problems.
JB> Sir, I may _agree_ with you, about your _interpretation_. I will
JB> NOT, however, agree that the passage literally says the
JB> things you claimed it said. There's a real --if purely
Then you have wasted your time. You claim that the bible does not literally
state this. I say that it does when it uses the word "avenge". Now, I
believe with your post, that you see the point. It was a losing battle
to claim otherwise.
JB> Such a God could exist, yet be constrained by physics from gross
JB> manipulation of reality, and, in attempting to communicate _into_
JB> gross matter, fail to get across the meaning(s) intended.
JB> IOW, that Moses took the "thoughts of God" that seemed to be
JB> appearing inside his head (whether they were hallucination
JB> or not) as instructions to maim and slaughter, is not
JB> _of_necessity_ indicative of the presumed God actually
JB> _instructing_ to maim and slaughter.
I see your misniterpretation of the matter now. when fundiew wander in
here, I usually immediatly ask them for evidence of their god. Naturally,
they have none. when you argue this on a bible based strategy, you must
assume for the moment that their god exists, so as to not argue two points
at one time.
MG>> Cry "Havoc" and let slip the dogs of war."
MG>> Give the literal meaning of the above. don't think about
MG>> it.
JB> Give an interpretation, based on a subsidiary commander's actual
JB> actions after the war is underway, and tell me it's
JB> contained in words, in the quote....
The meaning is there. You just need to be able to understand it.
JB> I'm in NO way defending God. In the first place, I don't think
JB> that WAS God, even where the passage quotes Him. I think it
JB> was Moses' manical religous mind 100%. In the second place,
JB> I'm "defending" the necessity of superior integrity in the
JB> anti-Literalist, anti-creationist arguer's phrasing.
So give me your philosophy on god...are you a deist? You claim otherwise.
Are you an atheist? I've yet to see you claim this. surely, you're not
black and white on the matter.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 18 Mar 96 10:54:11
EID:608a 207256c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d872e
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 140f9ab6
Tuesday March 12 1996 08:35, Steve Rose mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> boring life if the best thing you can come up with for
KM>> entertainment is to try and convience Christian that the Bible is
KM>> not true.....
SR> I would rather lead in a boring life...than blindly follow in one as
you
SR> fundy *noids do.
Steve,
What's a fundy?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Apostles
|Date: 18 Mar 96 10:54:12
EID:7fdd 207256c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d87e6
Tuesday March 12 1996 11:16, Brad Jackson mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Actually Steve I do realize it, but we will see if your still
KM>> amused about it, after judgement day. BTW you must lead a pretty
KM>> boring life if the best thing you can come up with for entertainment
KM>> is to try and convience Christian that the Bible is not true.....
BJ> Steve seems to be a lost soul. I think it is a christains duty
BJ> to try and help the lost sheep.
BJ> Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, , I have set
BJ> thee to [be a light] of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for
BJ> salvation unto the ends of the earth.
I agree.
BJ> So will you be a light for Steve to look to in the darkness he
BJ> lives?
BJ> Jesus did not send us out to save the saved but to save the lost.
Will you?
BJ> Luke 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together friends
BJ> and neighbours, saying unto them, [Rejoice] with me; for I have
BJ> found my sheep which was lost.
And what was Christ talking about? Those already in the fold, or rather
those that already have salvation. Even those that have salvation, and are
wondering around in the world need someone to show them the way back to
God.
BJ> John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit
BJ> unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may
BJ> [rejoice] together.
BJ> Be strong in the faith of Jesus Christ, our Lord and God.
Thank you for your words of encouragement.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 18 Mar 96 10:57:13
EID:6dd4 20725720
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d88a1
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org c69b7c8e
Wednesday March 13 1996 12:36, Karl Schneider mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KS> No, you cannot even read what it says. I wrote it above. Read it
KS> again.
I have read it, apparantly you have not, why don't you read it again.
KM> KS>> I guess I shouldn't be surprised at anything, but this really takes
KM> KS>> the fucking cake.
KM>> What that you haven't read all the verses? Only those that make a
KM>> situation look bad? Your right I shouldn't be surprised. Had you read
KM>> all the verse you would have know that Abraham knew that they would
both
KM>> return, and that Abraham knew that God would provide a
KM>> sacrifice.
KS> You are an idiot.
And you need a comprehensive reading course. 8-)
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it eith
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:00:14
EID:c232 20725800
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d893a
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org b60dfd39
Wednesday March 13 1996 12:36, Karl Schneider mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." That's pretty
KM>> clear, we are no to tempt the Lord, to mix a drink of poison just to
KM>> drink it, to prove that w have faith, would be tempting God. It would
be
KM>> us, the Christian, saying to
KS> No. You are too stupid to understand it. It clearly would only
KS> tempt YOU.
And if I drank it, who would I be tempting? If I drink to prove that God
would indeed protect me, then I would be tempting God to fulfill his promise.
And we have been shown not to do that. But, I forgot, you only read those
parts of the Bible that you think will support your misinterpretation.
KM>> before they die, die, that they will spend eternity in the lake of
fire,
KM>> where the beast and false prophet will be.......
KS> Where is this lake?
Does it matter? I have no idea, but it is describe to us in the book of
Revelation.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Staal probably also belie
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:03:15
EID:4d2b 20725860
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d8980
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 9d33cacd
Wednesday March 13 1996 12:36, Karl Schneider mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> KM>>> would see it as such." Any admission there that I would do
it?
KM> KM>>> Again, the answer is no. You won't post the whole conversation,
KM> KM>>> I doubt that you even bothered
KM> KS>> An admission that you would disobey God. Your true colors are
KM> KS>> exposed.
KM>> If someone asks me to sacrifice my son, it would not be God, but the
KM>> devil. God gave us the final sacrifice, no more is needed or required
KM>> for salvation.
KS> You area an evasive, nonbelieving liar.
What's the matter Karl, can't stand the truth so you must call it a lie?
KM> KM>>> My conversation with you is over. At this point I will do as I
KM> KM>>> have
KM>> Besides if you want no further posts from me, all you have to do is
stop
KM>> posting to me. Or better yet, add me to your twit list and you won't
KM>> have to worry about it at all.
KS> It is unnecessary. You are already near the top of God's twit list.
Shows how much you know.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Relative Stupidity
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:04:16
EID:f23f 20725880
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d89e8
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 1aa8a003
Wednesday March 13 1996 12:36, Karl Schneider mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> KS>> Yes, Kenneth, you certainly show signs. Unmistakable ones. That
KM> KS>> you are a liar and have no faith. Which leads inexorably to
KM> KS>> hypocrisy.
KM>> Do you have any idea what faith is?
KS> Of course. A belief in something for no sane reason.
KM> KS>> You are going to Hell and there is nothing you can do about it.
KM>> Sorry Karl, but your wrong, I cannot go to hell at all.
KS> Actually, that is correct, since it doesn't exist.
Karl,
I'de ask you to look it up in the dictionary, but you probably would only
read the words that you'de want to see instead of all of them.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:06:17
EID:d007 207258c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d8bb4
REPLY: 1:207/212 7ca52638
Wednesday March 13 1996 09:34, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> By what they do, they will show signs, yes, but not when it's demanded
KM>> of them. When one walks up to you and askes you if your 100% sure that
KM>> if you died tonight that you would go to heaven, that's a real good
KM>> indication. But even that can be faked. It's easy to fake being a
KM>> Christian, that's part of the problem, there's a lot of fake
KM>> Christians giving Christianity a bad name. There's also a lot of saved
KM>> people that think that being saved or born again makes them a
KM>> Christian. You stay around the church long enough and you will see
who
KM>> is and is not a Christian, a few years down the road the fake ones
KM>> normally leave or stop coming.
KD> Then what's the value of Christianity per se?
True Christianity? Living forever, and knowing that when the Lord comes
back for us, that we have done what we could to spread his gospel.
KM>> I don't see it as a jail, and those of us that are born again
KM>> Christian should consider it a jail more, the Bible tells us that this
KM>> is not our home.
KD> But it IS a jail, it was where "we" were sent because God couldn't trust
KD> us in the garden of eden any more. According to your legends, at least.
No, it's not a jail, we are not allowed back into Eden, that was the punishment,
not the world. I think on this one, we will just have to agree that we disagree.
KM>> Your absolutly correct, I can't let my 13 year old daughter out of
the
KM>> house without fearing the same thing. The Bible says that they world
KM>> is going to get worse, that it will get like it was in the days of
KM>> Noah before the flood, and as int he days of Lot before Sodom and
KM>> Gomora were destroyed. Stick around, it's going to get worse and
KM>> worse, and when you think it has ended, it hasn't.
KD> It's Christians that rape and cause rape, Kenneth. By telling people
KD> that women don't belong thus and so.
No, Christians do not cause rape. If I say that a women doesn't belong as
a pastor, tell me how does that cause someone to rape a woman?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [1]
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:14:18
EID:9128 207259c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d8e9b
REPLY: 1:207/212 86b017ba
Wednesday March 13 1996 09:36, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> I see you point, I just don't have to agree with it.
KD> You don't have to agree that those possibilities are true, of course.
Thank you.
KD>> No, simply agreeing that if there is no god or afterlife of any kind,
KD>> we are not likely to have any awareness after death.
KM>> Isn't that what Pascal's Wager says? That is what I was told after
I
KM>> said that if God did not exist that I would not know it.
KD> Pascal's Wager is that since there are only 2 choices, God [i.e. the
God
KD> of the Bible] and no god, you might as well believe in God so you get
KD> any advantages of that. Since there are any number of OTHER
KD> possibilities, that is a false dichotomy.
But that's your opinion isn't it?
KD>> HOWEVER, there are many proposed supreme beings and afterlives. So
KD>> many that yours is not the statistical best bet.
KM>> Your right, there are many many false religions in the world, excuse
KM>> me if I have to think that mine is not.
KD> And I can't see any difference between yours and the others. Not in
what
KD> they teach in general, not in the influence on the people, etc.
I have to wonder how many true Christians you've met. Not in the influence
on the people? I've seen it, maybe just a small amount, but I have seen
it.
KM>> What do you expect? I don't believe that any other religion is
KM>> correct.
KD> That's fine, but believe it for the right reasons, not because there
are
KD> no other options.
By believing in God, I can't believe that there are any other options, can't
you see that? To me there is only God, no others, to believe otherwise would
be against my own beliefs.
KM>> Not just based on what my "faith" teaches, most of my learning from
KM>> the Bible did not come from my "faith", but from self study.
KD> Yet consider what a Muslim would learn about you from HIS holy book.
I've had a long conversation with a Muslim about God, the Koran and the
Bible, he told me that he believed in the Koran and the Bible, he got real
confused about that when I showed him how they differed.
KD>> Take one step back from the Bible and open your mind. Your Bible might
KD>> only leave 2 options - false/true God/no God, but TRUE logic indicates
KD>> that there are many more.
KM>> Sorry Karen, I will not step back from the Bible. I already have an
KM>> open mind, and do not see any other options either it's the God of
the
KM>> Bible or no God at all. You look for logic that indicates something
KM>> else, I'll stick with the truth of the Bible.
KD> FAQ TIME!
KD> Again, you're relying on a false dichotomy.
Again, that's your believe and your opinion, not mine.
KM>> Not can't, won't. Why? Don't see the need? Why bother considering
KM>> something that I do not believe in? I could spend the time considering
KM>> something that I do believe in.
KD> Considering things you don't believe is mind sharpening. One of the
KD> reasons I love reading and writing Science Fiction so much. Science
KD> fiction writers don't write what they think will happen, they take WHAT
KD> IF's.
Would it surprise to know that I love science fiction?
KM>> NO matter what the reason, it would still not be the truth would it?
KM>> Whether you purposely lied or not, it's still not the truth, therefore
KM>> it would be lie.
KD> There are types of mistaken information that are not lies.
KM>> Like I said, if the statement is untrue then it is a lie.
KD> Again, a false dichotomy. To be a lie it must generally be an
KD> intentional deception.
KD>> OK... let's take this away from the possibliity of LYING. Let's say
KD>> that at 8:30 in the morning, my husband wakes up to find me already
KD>> gone. He gets a call that he needs to find me. On the computer desk
is
KD>> a paper saying "Grand Terrace, 3rd grade." HE NEEDS TO FIND ME.
KD>> He goes to the office and finds out that the third grade teacher I
had
KD>> been sent there for came in anyway, but they needed me in another
KD>> grade.
KD>> OR
KD>> A call to the sub desk finds that Grand Terrace was my assignment for
KD>> TOMORROW and that I'm at ______ school that day [any grade]
KD>> OR that I didn't have an assignment that day, Gary goes home and finds
KD>> me home eating the doughnuts I had gone out to buy.
KM>> What's your point?
KD> How many alternatives were there to my being at that school?
KM>> Go ahead, consider them all you want. I won't, I don't see the logic
KM>> of considering something I do not believe in.
KD> That's your problem. Thought experiments are CRUCIAL to developing
KD> thinking skills. Included in thought experiments is accepting the
KD> possibility of something you vehemently disagree with.
Accept something that I disagree with? Why would I want to do that?
KD> I don't see the logic of considering the effects of the conservinazi
KD> agenda on this country, since I don't believe in it.
conservinazi?
KM>> You want to have verification that God exist? But you refuse to
KM>> believe by faith. Without faith you cannot verify that he exist. It
KM>> takes faith, not physical evidence to believe in God.
KD> Faith is belief WITHOUT verification.
Now faith is the substance of things hope for, the evidence of things not
seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [2]
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:26:19
EID:9128 20725b40
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d8fd1
REPLY: 1:207/212 f73a426c
Wednesday March 13 1996 09:49, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> "intentionally lying" That's the key.
KD> Will you admit that those involved with your so called Messiah could
KD> have been intentionally lying?
No reason to admit that which I do not believe is true now is there?
KD>> You really think God would want you to think that way?
KM>> How does it go? Thou shalt have no other gods before me? Yes, I do
KM>> think that he would want it that way.
KD> Why bother making something a sin if there aren't any?
It's a sin to think that there is another god.
KD>> He wouldn't want
KD>> you to entertain the possibility that there was some miscommunication
KD>> and that fallible men wrote things wrong?
KM>> There's also a verse in the Bible that says that forever his word is
KM>> settled in heaven. I believe we have the word of God. And I do not
KM>> think that it is fallible at all.
KD> Yet MEN have joined in committee, in MODERN HISTORY, and made decisions
KD> about what to include in the Bible and what not to include. You willing
KD> to vouch for the divine inspiration of every man involved in all of
KD> these decisions, as well as all the translators, etc.?
You do not think that God could inspire those? Besides, I do not believe
that every Bible is infallible, there are many that I would not be caught
dead reading.
KD>> Why then did he have to send
KD>> someone else to repeat his message?
KM>> Repeat his message? Who did that?
KD> Jesus. Supposedly.
Read the first chapter of John, then tell me again that Christ repeated
it.
KM>> But you have no faith, you will not believe the scriptures, therefore
KM>> you will not believe.
KD> Circular. I only believe things that evidence has led me to believe
KD> could be true.
You call it circular, I call it scriptural. Luke 16:31
KM>> Oh, I understand you, more than you realize. I just won't think like
KM>> you, and you consider that wrong. Could you step on my side of the
KM>> tracks and honesty consider God from the stand point of one that has
KM>> faith? If you think you can, tell me how can you without that faith?
KM>> How could I consider a thought
KM>> experiment that requires me to set my faith aside? My faith exist,
and
KM>> it is not something that can just be set aside.
KD> It doesn't take setting your faith aside to realize that Pascal's Wager
KD> is a false dichotomy IN LOGIC. You're willing to consider the
KD> possibility of NO god, why not all the other possibilities?
From my stand point there is no other possibility.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:31:20
EID:ae68 20725be0
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d9107
Wednesday March 13 1996 03:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
KD>>> Obedience to secular law that meshed with their religious law [such
KD>>> as murder] would be a start.
KM>> Noone will obey all the laws, why? Because being saved does not keep
KM>> one from sinning, and disobey laws is sin.
BJ> But being saved gives you an excuse not to accept the moral consequences
BJ> of the sin you have committed. For example, your average Joe Blow
BJ> kills someone, his conscience gets to him, and he suffers the agony
of
BJ> what he's done every day for the rest of his life. Justice is served,
at
BJ> least in one respect.
BJ> Your average Christian will kill someone, and think that his wrongdoing
is
BJ> magically washed away. Evasion technique at best. The fact that you
think
BJ> you are forgiven doesn't mean that you didn't commit the original sin
in
BJ> the first place, and does nothing to actually right the situation.
The average so called Christian will kill someone and think that he's lost
his salvation because of it. No one says that what they did was right, only
that God will forgive them for it. Someone conscience will get to them whether
they claim to be a Christian or not. If they are a Christian and killing
someone does not bother them, then they would not have been bothered by
even if they were not a Christian. The average true Christian, would be
bothered by it more, because not only have they broken man's law, and God's
law, but there are countless others that will end up in hell because they
destroyed thier witness of Christ to others.
BJ> Check out a song by Anthrax called "Room for One More"...it deals with
BJ> this very subject...
Who is Anthrax?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: HELLO!
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:36:21
EID:bdf2 20725c80
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d9155
Wednesday March 13 1996 03:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
KM>> I don't HAVE to accept anything. I believe the Bible, if it turns out
KM>> that it is not real, I will never know it. I don't and cannot accept
KM>> that there is any God except the God that is in the Bible. If he's
not
KM>> real, there is no others.
BJ> How do you explain the other gods mentioned in that Bible of yours?
Ok, give me a passage.
KM>> I have seen Muslim turn from the Koran and start believing in the
KM>> Bible. To me, they are believing in a false religion, God is the ONLY
KM>> option, which makes him the logical one as well.
BJ> The only option for you, or the only option for everyone?
YES!
KM>> It's not wrong, and I will not entertain the thought.
BJ> Not surprising. You fundies have a habit of simplistic, black and white
BJ> thinking. Part of being truly wise is being smart enough not to accept
BJ> anything without question. Nothing is absolute, there are no givens
in
BJ> life. Turning a blind ear to what you don't want to hear doesn't change
BJ> the fact that perhaps someone other than you may be right.
There you go, assuming that I have never questioned it.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 18 Mar 96 11:38:22
EID:1449 20725cc0
MSGID: 1:271/460 314d926d
Wednesday March 13 1996 03:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
SM>>>>> For you to tempt it, it would have to exist first.
KM>>>> He does.
BJ>>> I've been gone almost a year, and I'm willing to wager you still
BJ>>> haven't produced one shred of evidence to show this...
KM>> Evidence
BJ> make>
But they did matter in the point that I was trying to make.
BJ> My point is simple. You can't use circular logic to show that something
BJ> exists. (i.e. How do you know God exists? Cause the bible says so...How
do
BJ> you know the Bible exists? Because God says so...) That, m'dear, does
not
BJ> work in a rational sense. What we are speaking of is evidence outside
the
BJ> Bible...
I know the Bible exist because it is sitting in front of me. I know God
exist because the Bible says so. According to you, that's not circular.
BJ>>> Yeppers. Still beating your son, Ken?
KM>> Never claimed that I did beat my son.
BJ> I remember getting into numerous arguments with you on this subject.
Are
BJ> you now a liar in addition to a child abuser? (To all others reading
this:
BJ> Did any of you happen to archive the post where Ken was speaking of
BJ> beating his son? Some of you older 'Smokers will remember this vividly)
Are you sure it was me, and not Jerry Wilcox?
BJ>>> Produce him, and we will.
KM>> Stick around you'll see him eventually.
BJ> Sorry, Ken...I have better things to do with my time then wait around
for
BJ> your imaginary playfriend to appear.
You will met him one day, that you can count on.
KM>>>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
KM>>>> anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a
KM>>>> sign, he refused, he would not give them the sign that they
KM>>>> requested directly of him. We know Christ by the things that he did,
KM>>>> the signs
BJ>>> Perhaps because he was blowing smoke?
KM>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
KM>> anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign,
KM>> he refused, he would not give them the sign that they requested
KM>> directly of him. We know Christ by the things that he did, the signs
BJ>
BJ> Stop doin' the 'ole fundie shuffle...As some of the vets are so fond
of
BJ> saying, I'll pour...Unless you are full of shit and a hypocrite to boot,
BJ> you'd better start chugging that Draino. Your God commands it as a sign
of
BJ> faith...
Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however anytime
one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign, he refused,
he would not give them the sign that they requested directly of him. We
know
Christ by the things that he did, the signs were those miracles that he
performed for the faithful, not for the unfaithful. Since a Christian is
someone who is suppose to be following in the f