God Damned Fundies!
|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A Fair & Just God [2]
|Date: 19 Mar 96 06:47:01
EID:c0fd 207335e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 9aae976c
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DA174
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> And your response against Hitler would have been...?
AS> Especially if you had lived in say, France or Poland, as
AS> Germany was threatening them? Or if you had been Jewish in
AS> Germany? Would you have been a martyr, or would you have
AS> fought back? And would you have approved or disapproved of
AS> resistance efforts against the Germans no matter what your
AS> personal decision?
I might well have been one of those who hid Jews in my attic,
or had a pipeline to the underground that hastened Jews out of
the country before the authorities could find them. I might
also have been a person who merely spoke out against the way
Jews were being treated -- probably at my own peril.
MB> The Christophers said it well:
MB> It is better to light one little candle than
MB> to curse the darkness.
MB> Amen.
AS> It speaks very well of you, Marilyn, even if I think there
AS> are some inconsistencies in that position, to take that
AS> stance. Speaking for myself, my pacifism is far more limited.
There are no inconsistencies that I can see. I've explained to you
those elements that you THOUGHT were inconsistent, and they have
been shown to be otherwise.
Most people's so-called pacifism is hardly that; it is more akin
to plain, old-fashioned situational ethics. It is, however, hard
for them to call it by its rightful name if they are Christians,
because they themselves have painted themselves into a corner
where they cannot use that word when referring to themselves. They
have made the term too pejorative.
... Confession is good for the soul but bad for your career.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 19 Mar 96 06:52:19
EID:883b 20733680
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d462982f
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DA408
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> Indeed not. (Although He may have been one for a while, if my beliefs
AS> are right...a descent into humanness.)
MB> No, but he apparently, in your view, holds us to a higher standard
MB> than he holds himself, and that is the issue. He tells us not to
MB> kill, yet he commits wholesale slaughter of human beings himself,
MB> just because he's pissed at the way they choose to worship.
AS> He holds us to a DIFFERENT standard than He holds Himself, no
AS> question. And your charge is untrue; He did not do wholesale
AS> slaughter against the Egyptians for worshipping Osiris and
AS> Anubis, etc., but for keeping His people prisoner (and doing
AS> so for centuries...how many Jews died in hard labor) despite
AS> the close proximity of the Hebrews and the Egyptians.
Nice selective memory you've got there, Al. HE HARDENED PHAROAH'S
HEART SO HE COULDN'T RELEASE THE HEBREWS! So even here his
culpability is apparent.
AS> Paul in Romans speaks of "good works" and "conscience" being
AS> a pagan's spokesman before the Lord, so the fact that they
AS> are pagan (which, by definition, would believe in other gods
AS> than Himself) thus arguing that even a pagan can make
AS> presentations to the Lord and possibly be saved.
Sure, if Jehovah doesn't zap 'em first.
AS> When the Jews were in captivity, there was no talk about
AS> destroying the Babylonians for worshipping Marduk, Nabu, etc.
AS> Paul admit the pagan gods are fictions and one can eat meat
AS> sacrificed to idols as long as it doesn't lead others astray,
AS> being sacrificed to literally nothing.
Yeah. Like all those Christian martyrs who sacrificed themselves to a
god that didn't know right from wrong.
AS> Imagine for a minute, a God's eye view. Omniscient, so able
AS> to hear and see every second of the obscenity of an innocent
AS> child being shoved into an idol's furnace, the screams, the
AS> fire crisping their skins.
More double standard. Remember hell for eternity?
AS> Imagine seeing this time and time again. And being sacrificed
AS> to literally NOTHING...a god that doesn't exist! Of being
AS> omnipotent, but bound by His own principles not to intervene
AS> directly, lest the sheer force of His response rob humans of
AS> their free will.
AS> But if others follow Him of THEIR free will...is it any
AS> wonder He led them to a land where such was being practiced?
AS> Is it any wonder He used them to stop it, and help stop it
AS> for all time? No, I cannot prove the Midianites did the rites
AS> of Molech...yet they were Baal-worshippers, and the two often
AS> went together.
The Bible merely says he was outraged at their choice of a god
to worship. Big fucking deal! They followed their consciences
and culture. IMAGINE THAT!
MB> THAT is the issue. In other words, he sends us to hell for
MB> eternity for deeds that he commits with impunity.
AS> Ahhh, but there is another issue here. Remember, in terms of
AS> the Judeo-Christianic frame, death entered the world not
AS> through God's will, but against God's express orders. In
AS> other words, all death is a result of what happened in the
AS> Garden of Eden. "If you eat thereof, you shall surely die."
Yup. He sentenced EVERYBODY to death because two people actually
had the cajones to LEARN! You can have 'im. He's a cretin.
AS> There was a clear warning there, which was ignored. Is death
AS> the result of God (given the Biblical frame) or of Man's
AS> disobedience to God?
Yup. They disobeyed and LEARNED.
MB> That is the ultimate hypocracy -- especially since he has so
MB> many more choices than we do, being omni-* and all.
AS> Ahh, and if He chooses to respect OUR choices, even when it
AS> comes to things like death?
He invented death. Remember? That on his head, too.
AS> ... I plead temporary sanity.
I can understand why.
... Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.- Randi
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Revelation
|Sub: Prophecy
|Date: 14 Mar 96 21:44:32
EID:2cf4 206ead80
MSGID: 3:711/933 314895cb
REPLY: 1:123/610.0 3142279d
Dear LACK of Revelation,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
R> Beware the Jew is the child of the Devil, and he belongs to the
R> Synagogue of Satan -- jn.8:44, rv.2:9,3:9.
Leaving aside the self-styled Khazar `Jews' and compound revelations of
Scripture, John 8:44 in the first sense, is unrelated to Revelation 2:9
and 3:9. Whereas John 8:44 refers to a bunch of Jews who weren't in any
way Spiritual, Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 refers to those who claimed to be
the Church of Jesus Christ, God's elected and called-out, or the chosen
people as the Jews once were. Although this verse uses the word `Jews'
this is metaphorical. Jesus was a Jew (i.e. of the Tribe of Judah), and
therefore those who claimed to be Jews were seeking a pre-eminence over
the flock.
Before you proceed in attempting to make yourself a prophet, interpret-
ing His Word, you should check out ther late Wiliam Branham who was the
last Word prophet to the Gentiles.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: John Passaniti
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 15 Mar 96 20:42:34
EID:b8a8 206fa540
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149dbdd
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 230b46a0
Dear John Passaniti,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
JP> it isn't very fair to say there are no contradictions because ...
JP> there are over 3000 denominations
And not a single one of them is Christian. Know you not that denominations
are not of God? That denominationalism is Spiritual fornication and that
are ultimately the anti-Christ and cast into the Lake of Fire.
JP> these have different interpretations of the same scripture you read
What is the name of the prophet who gave them their interpretation? God
is
His own interpreter Who interprets His Word by bringing It to pass, or
by sending a prophet. The Bible was sealed during the denominational days
and
Christ was a Mediator BECAUSE of ERROR (or carnal interpretation). Since
the Seven Seals have been opened, the mystery of God is finished and God's
been calling His people out from EVERY denomination into oneness with the
Word for the manifestation of the Sons of God and the translation. Read
Matthew 25:1-13 and Revelation 18:4.
JP> if you define a world where inconsistencies in scripture simply don't
JP> exist as a matter of faith, then yes, you can indeed claim there are
JP> no inconsistencies.
Only someone _without_ faith can imagine any inconsistencies in the Word
of God. `Faith' is a clear understanding of the written Word. It is the
mind of God in you.
JP> If I honestly believed something, I would do my best to express
JP> my faith in terms that others outside my faith could understand.
Only the elect can receive the faith. Or as Jesus said, `My sheep receive
My Word, a stranger they will NOT follow'. That lets the denominations out
of the Gospel Net. All of them.
JP> You don't seem to make that effort. Instead, you sit at your
JP> keyboard and offer us nothing but an expression of your faith, hoping
JP> that there is some resonance in others.
I also pastor a tiny Church, moderate BIBLE_BELIEVERS echo, I manage Bible
Believers BBS, and broadcast five weekly Bible Believers radio programs
in
addition I attempt to open the faith to other correspondents in the echoes.
However there can _only_ be a `resonance in others' _if_ they are elected.
JP> What is your purpose in this forum? How do your words meet your
JP> purpose?
Read the above.
JP> God demands you kill me.
You seem to be managing quite well without help.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Fear of God 2/2
|Date: 15 Mar 96 21:16:22
EID:083f 206faa00
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149e095
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31439376
Dear David Worrell,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I can't quite see your point in publishing this story of pathetic ignorance
when you apparently now realize it is evil superstition.
Surely it would be more profitable for you to seek and apprehend
the Absolute, and more postitive to share That in this dark world.
As it is, you appear to have graduated as an exemplary product of
Roman Catholicism, led by the god they serve.
There is a truth. You should seek It instead of closing the door,
saying, `there is no light', and resigning yourself to darkness.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 1
|Date: 15 Mar 96 21:27:58
EID:722d 206fab60
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149e5cc
Dear Becke Jones,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you actually believe what you are posting? I've only read a couple of
paragraphs and some of it is patent dishonesty. You appear to have fallen
for the oldest ploy of the greatest sophist. Why do you halt between two
schools of error - (so-called) creationists and evolutionists?
BJ> Creationism is, for all practical purposes, an assault upon the
BJ> integrity of nearly every physical science and in order to cope
BJ> effectively with such organizations as the Institute for Creation
BJ> Research one would have to become quite knowledgable with respect to
BJ> geology, paleontology, anthropology, astronomy, biology, archeology,
BJ> physics, chemistry, and other physical sciences.
You just haven't read the Bible with understanding, and certainly haven't
sought to understand evolution. It's evolution that denies these physical
sciences (many of which are NOT sciences but implausible theories).
The story of creation you've written is an absurd misunderstanding of the
Genesis account. If you bother to study the Genesis account you will see
there is a vast difference between the words `bara', `asah' and `yatsar',
that Adam was formed before the animals, and that the earth was not `made
in seven days' but `in the beginning', when _time_ began.
BJ> If Adam was created on the sixth day approximately 6,000 years ago
If you read Genesis 2 you will find there was _no_ man or animal on earth
unto the seventh day. You must make an effort to study and understand the
work you are trying so hard to ridicule.
BJ> Prehistoric man would be fictitious.
Indeed he _is_ ficticious.
BJ> the third chapter of Luke also supports belief in a very young earth.
Oh no it does _not_ The very first verse of Scripture, Genesis 1:1, tells
us that the earth is as old as time itself. School kids are smart enough
to tell you it is trillions or billions of years old. You just have not
tried to study the Book independently of the crass thoughts of religionists
BJ> If each man had lived
BJ> approximately 100 years, then the world would be no more than
BJ> 9,694 (7,700 + 1994) years old. If each of Jesus' ancestors had
BJ> lived to be 1,000 years old (an age not even reached by
BJ> Methuselah), the earth would still only be 78,894 (77,000 + 1994)
BJ> years old according to creationists.
BJ> (10) "And to every beast of the earth, and every fowl of the air, and
BJ> to every thing that creepeth upon the earth wherein there is a life,
I
BJ> have given every green herb for meat: and it was so." (Gen 1:30)
BJ> Carnivorous beasts and fowl do not eat green herbs.
BJ> (11) "And God saw everything that he had made..." (Gen 1:31) and "on
BJ> the seventh day God ended his work" (Gen 2:2)
BJ> Scientifically speaking, unless God male organs or attributes,
it
BJ> is difficult to see how God could be masculine.
BJ> (12) "And out of the ground the Lord formed every beast o the field,
BJ> and every fowl of the air; and brought them to Adam to see what he
BJ> would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature,
BJ> that was the name thereof" (Gen. 2:19)
BJ> Enviornmentally speaking, how could every living creature be
BJ> brought to the Middle East or elsewhere without many animals
BJ> dying because of climatic changes and other factors? Unless
BJ> divine intervention takes place and that concept removes it from
BJ> scientific consideration, as it can never be falsified or tested.
BJ> (13) "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done
BJ> this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the
BJ> field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt eat all the days
BJ> of thy life." (Gen. 3:14)
BJ> If the serpent was a snake, snake-like, or reptilian in
BJ> character, and condemned to crawl upon it's belly, how did it move
BJ> before? And does science know of any serpent who eats dust?
BJ> (more to come--see next part)
BJ> ... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
BJ> * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 150
BJ> * Silver Xpress V4.01
BJ> -+- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
BJ> + Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 15 Mar 96 22:04:22
EID:23fd 206fb080
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149eaee
Dear Becke Jones,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
BJ> I have an extensive list that I could post here.
It is possible to buy books of supposed Bible contradictions but that does
not make them contradictions. It means only that the compiler is without
understanding. the most notable are written by the Jews.
BJ> If I take the time and trouble to do so, will you at least look it
BJ> over and comment
Yes, but don't give me too many. I do not know all things and the purpose
of the exercise should be to demonstrate that the only contradiction is
in the mind of the author and then only because he is ignorant of his subject.
BJ> or will you go running as the typical fundie would?
What you call a `typical fundie' is is in fact a non-Christian who is fundamentally
contrary to the most basic scriptures.
BJ> ... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
Self praise is no recommendation.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 15 Mar 96 22:11:42
EID:a007 206fb160
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149ec42
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63966ab0
Dear Martin Goldberg,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
MG> (which first--beasts or man?)
Man was formed before the beast. Were you an Hebrew and an Israelite rather
than a Gentile Jew-impersonater you'd distinguish between `bara', `asah',
and `yatsar'.
As you have demonstrated, there is no contradiction in the Bible. However,
you have been able to display your ego, ignorance of Hebrew and unbelief
in
the Word of God.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 16 Mar 96 00:02:28
EID:a007 20700040
MSGID: 3:711/933 314a0614
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63966ed0
Dear Martin Goldberg,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
MG> Num.12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men
MG> which were upon the fact of the earth."
MG> Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto
MG> them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill
MG> every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But
MG> all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."
MG> ==================================================================
There is no contradiction in these two statements. Your problem is unbelief
and laziness in not looking up the Hebrew. Moses was `meek' meaning he
was
under pre-eminence to God's Word and humbled his mind to the will of God.
Your Bible contradictions are quite childish and dishonest. You are not
a seeker of truth.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Baha'i 1/2
|Date: 17 Mar 96 23:34:00
EID:e552 2071bc40
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14e2c221
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Lynda.
Looks like another of my notes actually made it out. I wonder if Al saw
it.
AS> don't argue at the same length for any of the other miracles...water
AS> into wine, walking on water, the loaves and the fishes, the healing
of
AS> lepers...because they are comparitively irrelevant.
RM> Water into wine, for instance, really does smack of parlour tricks.
RM> What's the point?
LB> AFAIK, the purpose of miracles is to show the handiwork of God
LB> directly -- God revealing himself without human/natural intervention.
LB> Obviously, if the intent was for Jesus to reveal himself as God
LB> incarnate, it failed.
I'm not sure I understand this. You think that the purpose of miracles
is for God to reveal Himself? You think God failed?
LB> As a metaphor however, the story has many points.
Exactly. IMHO, the stories of miracles are a lot more meaningful when
viewed that way than they are when viewed as failed attempts by God to
impress the locals.
LB> theology had begun to be set, and that the authors had that theology
in
LB> mind when they wrote them -- these metaphors were likely consciously
LB> designed to remind and teach Christians of the tenets of their faith,
LB> similar to Jesus's use of parable as teaching tools.
One would wonder if the disciples did _not_ use parables. After all,
parables were one of Jesus' favourite teaching tools, and they watched
and lived with Him for three years. When it came their turn to teach, it
would be hard to understand if they didn't use parables.
I'm not aware of any parable that Jesus explained to the assembled crowd
(I stand to be corrected on that, but He certainly didn't make
explanations part of the regular package). He explained them to the
disciples, but He left them as nice little stories for the multitudes.
So, if the disciples used parables as teaching aids in their writings,
would we expect them to clearly identify them? Or would they follow the
lead of their Master?
For this reason, I think that a lot of stories in the Gospels are really
meant metaphorically, and I think that silly pointless miracles are
an element that is a dead giveaway.
RM> Another one that has always puzzled me is connected with the loaves
RM> and fishes. If miracles are supposed to be convincing (if the
RM> motivation for performing them was to convince those present of the
RM> truth of His revelation) then what happened to the 5000 who were fed
by
RM> the 5 loaves and 2 fishes? They participated in a public miracle.
RM> Weren't they convinced? How come Christ had only a dozen or so
RM> followers when He was on the cross?
LB> I've never seen much indication that the story says the crowd was
LB> AWARE of the miracle -- it was pointed toward the followers themselves
LB> who were not confident of their ability to provide for the people.
The
LB> point of the story is "You CAN provide for them, if you lean on Me."
I think the story actually means pretty much what you said.
But, as an aside, the text (literally taken) in all 4 gospels seems to
indicate to me that the miracle was performed in the presence of the
5000. In fact, they were commanded to sit before the food was blessed.
Interestingly, Matthew seems to relate two separate instances of the same
miracle (in 14, and 15), first time for 5000, second time for 4000. Why
do you figure he did that? To show that the disciples didn't learn very
well?
RM> It seems to me that almost every miracle related in the Bible carries
RM> some symbolic meaning, if one just looks at them the same way one
RM> would look at parables. This goes for the resurrection as much as
the
RM> raising of Lazarus.
LB> :) Exactly.
Hey, we agree!
Take care.
... Kindness gives birth to kindness. - Sophocles
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Mike Ruskai
|Sub: Howdy
|Date: 18 Mar 96 22:10:00
EID:6474 2072b140
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14e2c231
-=> Quoting Mike Ruskai to All <=-
Good morning, Mike.
MR> I'm getting a touch bored with OS Debate, so thought I'd drop in and
MR> ridicule a few insecure witless religious types.
You should fit right in.
MR> So, who would like to "save me", or flaunt their ring-side tickets at
MR> the border of hell where they will watch me be immolated?
Not I.
Take care.
... One planet... One people.... Please!
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose One
|Date: 18 Mar 96 22:27:00
EID:5a88 2072b360
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14e2c241
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to All <=-
Good morning, Marilyn.
Interesting note.
MB> Pursuant to its federal charter and bylaws, the Boy Scouts of America
MB> is mandated to makescouting available to all boys who meet entrance
MB> age requirements irrespective of race, religion, or ethnic origin.
...
MB> Probable cause exists to credit the Complainant
MB> allegations that both she and her minor son were
MB> unalwfully discriminated against, in violation of
MB> Section 6(i) of the Pennsylvania Human Relations
MB> Act, because of religious creed when Respondent
MB> [the BSA] advised the Complainant that belief in
MB> the existence of God was a requirement to obtain
...
MB> Boy Scouts to discuss these terms and conditions. The important
MB> precedent established by the commission's decision is its rejection
of
MB> the BSA's assertion of their "private" nature -- the rejection based
MB> upon the BSA's own statement of purpose...
Looks to me like this court has just decided that atheism is a religion.
The BSA's charter says that they will make scouting available to all boys
regardless of religion. If my understanding is correct, atheism is _NOT_
a religion. They deny access to an atheist. The court sites their own
statement of purpose as grounds to reverse that, saying that the atheists
involved have been "unlawfully discriminated against because of religious
creed". Hmmm.....
I wonder if the Catholic Church can be forced to accept Muslims as members?
I've got a feeling that this one will be reversed on appeal. Sounds like
this court has made a mistake, and the nature of the mistake is one that
even atheists should object to.
Take care.
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR AND JUST GOD [1]
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:03:06
EID:e26f 20733860
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 77bb8d5a
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DA714
AS> I'm not ethically pliable at all, Marilyn. I am recognizing a
AS> QUALITATIVE difference which you seem unwilling to grant. I
AS> MAY NOT kill (or if I do, it must be in cases of self-
AS> defense, to save a greater number). God MUST kill...at least
AS> as the universe is constructed now...for not to allow death
AS> would mean much more misery. (As I mentioned before, and you
AS> did NOT answer.) You keep on equating God with a human being.
AS> He is not. He is not hypocritical unless you can point out an
AS> instance where He said, "_I_ may not kill." And if He didn't
AS> allow death, the germs, insects, and rodents would soon
AS> overrun the earth, making our immortal lives truly Hellish.
You are forgetting that He Himself created it. And you are
also forgetting that, according to the myth, he created it
without death. Now you're saying that a world without death
would be hellish. I guess he created a hellish world, then,
and feeding us that crap about A&E was merely his way of
implementing a bug fix. I'm not surprised.
AS> If you think creation is a democracy, I'm sorry, it's not.
AS> That's a pantheistic view that I cannot subscribe to (if
AS> nothing else, it would make me a murderer every time I killed
AS> a germ.). You yourself, in another post, were insulted by
AS> being compared to a germ, a virii, a chimp, indicating you DO
AS> hold to a hierarchal view of biology...that virii and germs
AS> are "lesser" than yourself. But you stop at Man. It is YOU
AS> who make man the pinnacle of Creation, not I.
Do you eat meat? At least I'm intellectually honest about it.
AS> It is I who think there are at least two levels beyond what
AS> we know (the angelic and the godly) and maybe many more.
So you've invented an invisible hierarchy in order to make your
point to yourself. You and Michael Jordan have really smooth
moves, but I'm much more impressed with his, quite frankly.
... Innuendo: An Italian homosexual.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR AND JUST GOD [2]
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:08:12
EID:e26f 20733900
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c30bc733
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DA714
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
>> CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS MESSAGE <<
AS> them, something you would not do to something you considered
AS> an equal, no matter how annoying. You have a different
AS> standard for their behavior than you do for yours.
MB> But I haven't instructed THEM not to kill, now, have I? See
MB> the substantive difference? I certainly hope so, for the
MB> safety of your neighbors.
AS> But the mosquitoes know that they are doing what we would not
AS> approve of, Marilyn. That is why they fly away when we raise
AS> our hands.
You have GOT to be kidding! They fly away in order to preserve
their lives. In no way do they have enough sentience to connect
their actions with mine; they merely are showing a survival trait.
Period. If they did not have the apparent reflex, we'd not have
mosquitoes.
AS> In other words, in a non-verbal communication,
AS> which is the only way you can instruct mosquitos, they know
AS> perfectly well that they are doing what we would disapprove
AS> of. So your "substantive difference" evaporates. On a level
AS> THEY would understand communication, they know. Similarly,
AS> the written or spoken Word of God is doubtless far less than
AS> the direct, mind-to-mind communication that God might enjoy
AS> with things like angels. But at least it is put in a way we
AS> understand. And there still is a substantive difference in
AS> YOUR standard.
Nonsense! I allow mosquitoes to be mosquitoes, just as I allow
humans to be humans. As for your god being unwilling to
communicate with us, that, too is garbage. He's never tried.
Mythology aside, the only clues we've had regarding our behavior
are the NATURAL RESULTS of those behaviors and our own decision
that we don't like those results, leading us to the conclusion
that we ought to give up the behaviors.
You hold mosquitoes to a different standard of
AS> conduct than you do for men. If I said you killed human being
AS> for annoying you, you would think I was accusing you of being
AS> a dangerous sociopath, and be outraged. But that is what you
AS> do for mosquitoes.
I definitely see a qualitative difference between the life of
a mosquito and the life of another human being. Yes. As do
you. Do you take antibiotics when you get pneumonia?
MB> I see. HE can kill all the human beings he wants to, but he
MB> WE kill even one, we are doomed forever. Nice, consistent,
MB> well-managed god you've got there, Al. I hope you're proud of
MB> him. I certainly wouldn't be proud of any god of mine that
MB> had lesser standards than my own. I would insist on one I
MB> could at least look up to with a certain amount of desire to
MB> emulate his behavior. Your god, I dunno, if I emulated HIS
MB> behavior, I'd end up on death row. Not a nice guy, I'd say.
AS> You do emulate that part of His behavior...every day,
AS> Marilyn. When you bathe and kill germs. Again, you are
AS> equating yourself with the Creator of the Universe, when you
AS> do NOT equate yourself with germs and virii! I haven't an ego
AS> that big, Marilyn. Nor would I respect a god who totally
AS> withheld death and made life a hellish, unending series of
AS> diseases, parasites, insects who couldn't be killed, or
AS> rodents. Your stand is plainly inconsistent. Your standards
AS> are clearly the same as God's, in that you allow the death of
AS> lesser beings...you just can't believe you are a lesser being
AS> compared to the Creator of the Universe. You recognize a
AS> hierarchy one way (to chimps, rodents, germs, virii) but do
AS> not recognize it the other way.
And you are conveniently overlooking the obvious. Your god is
supposedly omni-*, which means he has infinite alternatives to
dealing out death to lesser creatures. My choices are much
fewer, and I can only choose among the choices that I have. In
this case, my choices are to either succumb to a lesser creature,
or kill it first. Why doesn't you god exercise some other choice?
He has so many.
AS> (Plus we are disregarding the fact that God, at least for
AS> humans--not commenting on animals one way or the other--does
AS> provide for existence of the soul after death, according to
AS> my beliefs,
Handy little escape hatch you've got there, Al. I don't buy it.
Dead is dead, in ALL instances.
... You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:21:14
EID:a8dc 20733aa0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 e289059b
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DB5C4
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> There's probably some reason. And humans' belief in the
AS> afterlife is based on..?
MB> Our higher brain simply has a hard time accepting the unpleasant.
MB> We have no evidence that other animals have enough sense of self
MB> to even equate the death they witness around them with their own
MB> inevitable demise. We make that connection and find it a disturb-
MB> ing thought. So, in order to maintain our mental equillibrium, we
MB> put a happy-face on it, and call it an afterlife. OF COURSE it has
MB> survival qualities; without that happy-face, we would be obsessed
MB> with the subject of our own demise, thereby quickening that event.
AS> But are YOU, Marilyn? You're not a believer in a diety. I
AS> assume you are not a believer in an afterlife. You seem to
AS> get along quite well without such a belief, as do Fred, Dan,
AS> Shelby, David, etc. It seems that the people who would like
AS> us to think that such a reaction is all it is are the best
AS> examples of why it is NOT. Communist Russia got along fine
AS> for decades where belief in the supernatural and an afterlife
AS> was not sponsored or merely allowed by the state, but
AS> actively discouraged, although not outright banned.
AS> You know that childbirth would be a disturbing thing. An
AS> extremely painful thing. But you don't make up myths on how
AS> glorious it will be, or self-hypnotize yourself into having a
AS> religious experience while giving birth to block the pain.
AS> Your higher brain accepts THAT without hedging. In fact, YOUR
AS> higher brain seems to accept the extinction of your existence
AS> with equanimity. Even some religions do that, indeed the
AS> Sadduccees did that. Are atheists and Sadduccees and other
AS> non-believers in an afterlife obsessed with death, and
AS> thereby quickening it? I think not.
Not everybody handles unpleasant prospects in the same way.
What I said above is but one way to handle the unpleasant
prospect of one's demise. We handle our demise in ways that
differ from how believers handle that same prospect. No doubt
about it. Some people can look unpleasant reality squarely in
the eye and stare it down; others must look away at the pretty
flowers, pretending that those lovely colors and smells are the
only reality that exist, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
... Total lack of ethics? Become a Christian lawyer!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Buchanan
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:41:00
EID:f28a 20723d20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14eae131
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Dan.
DC> The Royal Canadian Air Farce?
DC> Never heard of it...
RM> Actually, "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", a weekly satirical look at the
RM> news, and a close relative of the Air Farce. (The title is a mix of
DC> That one I have never hear of! What night is it on? I get at least
DC> 2 Canadian channels and will have to give it a watch... Thanks!
It's on Monday nights at 9:00 on CBC. If you like the Air Farce's type
of
humour, you'll like 22 Minutes. It might require a reasonable grasp of
Canadian current events to really appreciate some of their stuff, though.
Like a couple of weeks ago, a major chunk of the show would have made no
sense at all to anyone who wasn't aware of the incident where our Prime
Minister roughed up a protester. (And anyone who _was_ aware of the
incident expected them to devote a big chunk of the show to it ).
Keep your stick on the ice.
... Hell is paved with Good Samaritans. - William M. Holden
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 19 Mar 96 06:02:54
EID:bdc0 20733040
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 243ffa8b
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting STEVE QUARRELLA to JESSE JONES on 03-16-96
SQ> MH>> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid
SQ> MH>> and win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom,
SQ> MH>> you win at least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce
SQ>it if it happens.) JJ> Happy hunting!
SQ>You guys are both teeming with megalomania. If the echo annoys you
SQ>both so much, fuck off and go somewhere else
Invitation to leave number 348,921.
SQ>Jesse, I haven't seen YOU gloating that I'm not around lately to
SQ>annoy you with hurtful questions, and I seem to recall that I'm one
SQ>of the people who pushes your buttons when the going gets rough. I'd
SQ>think you'd be overjoyed. :)
Have you been gone, Steve? I had not noticed. Don't flatter
yourself. You do not press any buttons. You lack the intelligence to
do so. You are a minor annoyance.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/18/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
ž CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
Your IQ test results are in and they were negative.
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 19 Mar 96 13:33:38
EID:7a2d 20736c20
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 06bcb8e2
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0009f9d4
On (18 Mar 96) Larry Bevard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
LB> MB>That is the ultimate hypocracy -- especially since he has so
LB> MB>many more choices than we do, being omni-* and all.
LB> Think about what you just wrote. Since God is omni-* don't you
LB> think He knows a little more than we do? True, it is wrong to Kill.
LB> False, He will seen us to Hell for eternity of killing always. There
LB> is sometimes that God has directed the Israelites to kill, was He then
LB> condemning them for following His orders?
That is my whole point, stupid. He is too much of a hypocrite to
follow the rules that he condemns others to eternal torment for
disobeying. The old "do as I say and not as I do" routine. I
don't follow any leader who is so demonstrably incapable of
following his own rules. He's a petty tyrant, not a god of
love, as his PR Department insists to characterize him.
... "Taglines: Your last chance to really piss off the other guy!"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Debate/Logic/Education
|Date: 19 Mar 96 15:30:52
EID:0bfa 20737bc0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c7ceb7f3
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314c9b0d
On (17 Mar 96) Preston Simpson wrote to Norbert Sykes...
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Debate/Logic/Education wgah'nagl
PS> fhtagn.
NS> I use as my sources for understanding logic the FAQ from this echo,
NS> to a certain extent, and a small book that I've had for a couple of
NS> years called Elementary Logic, by Willard Van Orman Quine. But I know
NS> that this isn't enough.
PS> In my case, I got by on less. I've been on HOLYSMOKE for over a year,
PS> more like two--and my education on logic and the procedures used in
PS> debate all came from this conference.
Now for a moment of egotism. I'm the one who originally posted
those rules of argumentation. They've sure gotten the mileage
since. Probably the only real positive contribution I've made
to this newsgroup in the years I've posted here.
... Reality has limits; stupidity has none. - N. Bonaparte
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: All
|Sub: Theological Arguments
|Date: 19 Mar 96 20:06:42
EID:e4b5 2073a0c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b4e95c4b
From: debate@freethought.tamu.edu on behalf of Vic Stenger
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 1996 6:04 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Does the System Adminstrator Exist?
[ Article reposted from talk.atheism ]
[ Author was Andy Gray ]
[ Posted on 1 Mar 1996 13:32:54 -0800 ]
(Special thanks to the guys on alt.atheism.)
Given that there is a lot of discussion about whether or not our LAN
really does have a System Administrator, and given that no empirical
evidence of the existence or non-existence of the System Administrator is
extant, I thought it would be helpful to have a frank and open discussion
about the issues surrounding the concept.
Here are some popular arguments:
Argument from Design:
1. One looks at a simple computer, and sees evidence of intelligent
design.
2. One looks at a Sun Sparc 20 and... um... well... Okay, One looks
at a DEC Alpha and sees evidence of intelligent design.
3. It is therefore likely that something created them.
4. One looks at the network and sees evidence of intelligent design.
5. It is therefore likely that something created it. That something
is the System Administrator.
Counter-argument:
1. If you think the network implies intelligent design, you haven't
seen *our* network.
2. Even assuming this proves the existence of a System Administrator,
there's no evidence the System Administrator is intelligent.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
First Causes argument:
1. When my computer comes on, it is because I turned it on. My
computer cannot turn itself on.
2. When I turn my computer on and connect to the network, the network
is already there waiting for me.
3. I know I did not activate the network.
4. Therefore, something must have caused the network to exist.
5. That something could be the Router, but then what installed the
Router?
6. That something must be the System Administrator.
Counter-argument:
1. So what caused the System Administrator?
2. Still doesn't prove the System Administrator is intelligent.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Argument from Popularity:
1. Almost everyone believes that the System Administrator exists.
Those who don't believe He exists are in the minority.
2. Many respected people claim to have received email from Him.
3. In almost any company since the dawn of the Computer Age, there
has been some form of System Administrator myth.
4. Given the universality of the myths, it is unlikely that such
myths are not based on truth.
Counter-argument:
1. Most users are clueless morons who need to believe in the Great
Benevolent Super-User, and that He protects and watches over
their data.
2. So who's to say it's the System Admin that HR claims to have hired?
Why not Brian Kernighan or Cliff Stoll, or Zeus, or Thor or any
other such mythical creature?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Argument from Authority:
1. Management insists that the System Administrator exists.
Specifically:
a. HR insists that they hired Him
b. Accounting claims to have PO's signed by Him
c. MIS has the The Big Book of Documentation, written by
Him or His disciples.
Counter-argument:
1. Since when has Management known what they were doing?
2. Using the Big Book of Documentation as proof that the BBoD was
written by the System Administrator is circular. It could be
a fabrication.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Cartesian Argument:
1. No user can create a more Super account than he himself possesses.
2. No user can grant greater system privileges than he himself possesses.
3. All users have heard of the root account, and that the root
account is omnipotent and possesses all privileges.
4. Since the concept of the root account is greater than the accounts
possessed by the users, the users cannot have created the concept of
the root account. Therefore the concept of the root account must come
from something that possesses those privileges.
5. There is an entry for 'root' in /etc/passwd.
6. The root account can only have been created by the Super User, the
System Administrator.
Counter-argument:
1. Statement 1 is a dubious premise.
2. The existence of the root account is not proof that anyone ever
logs into that account.
3. Still doesn't prove that the System Admin is intelligent.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Ontological Proof:
1. Given: The property of existence is more Super than the property of
non-existence.
2. The SysAdmin is defined as "a user, than which no more Super user
can be conceived".
3. No matter how great a Super User you can conceive which possesses
the property of non-existence, you can then add the property of
existence and make the Super User even more Super.
4. Therefore, the System Administrator exists.
Counter-argument:
1. Rests on a dubious definition of what is and is not Super.
2. The concept of a Super User is nowhere near analogous to the Super
User itself. I can conceive of something, but that's only the concept
of it, not the thing itself.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Spinozist Argument:
1. The System Administrator is defined as the most perfect user possible.
2. The property of necessary existence means that anything which
possesses it must necessarily exist.
3. If existence is better than non-existence (see the ontological
proof), then necessary existence is better still.
4. Any perfect user must possess the property of necessary existence.
5. Therefore the System Administrator must necessarily exist.
However:
6. Being perfect, the System Administrator cannot make mistakes,
delete the wrong account, trash the root directory, mess up a
tape load, etc.
7. Being perfect, the System Administrator can not be capable of
goal-directed action, because such action would imply that the
network is somehow less than perfect in its current state.
8. Therefore, the System Administrator is really more of a force of
nature within the system.
9. Arguably, then the System Administrator *is* the system itself.
Counter-argument:
1. None, since the System Administrator has been defined to the
point where it is a totally useless concept, there's no point
in arguing.
At least this resolves one of the major issues: the Spinozist
argument proves that *if* the System Administrator does exist,
it cannot be intelligent.
... 23rd Rule of Creationism: Claim superiority for Christian education.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Hitler
|Date: 19 Mar 96 20:09:02
EID:8d61 2073a120
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 fa4fe796
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DBC72
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to J.J. Hitt...
AS> Hmmmm. And how do lapsed Catholics who haven't done their
AS> Easter Communion in a few years get back in God's good
AS> graces, in Catholic doctrine? By confession. You are
AS> implicitedly DYING in a state of mortal sin...i.e., with no
AS> chance to confess.
That's what the Last Rites are for, Al, so a person can get
absolved of those sins that they committed since their last
Confession.
... Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Daryl Alopaeus
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 19 Mar 96 22:28:54
EID:5aa3 2073b380
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14f7b762
REPLY: 1:252/107 3149c2e9
> Hey all! Is anyone familiar with the predictions of M. Nostradamus?
I
> have recently read that the world is supposed to end by nuclear war at
the
> end of the year 1999. This seems to coincide with the bible, doesn't
it? I
> am not very familiar with the bible. There are a few things that
> Nostradamus predicted that have already come true, so I guess the end
is
> inevitable?
> What do you think? Anyone from any different religions have anything
to
> add to do with "the christian apoccolypse"?
> --- Telegard v2.99.g4 [ml]
> * Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
Actually according to the bible, I can't see the world ending in four years.
I base my reasoning on the fact that in the bible we are told that after
Jesus
comes, believers will go to heaven, and after that they will come back to
earth to live for about 1000 years. If the world were to come to an end
this
could not at all happen. Therefor, I have come to the conclusion that the
earth will be around for at least 1000 more years.
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: (2/2)YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:54:00
EID:b662 20735ec0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 77178e57
AS> You have an excellent point in that, for many previous
AS> generations would regard with horror and disgust what is done
AS> routinely (abortions) and talk about assisted suicides and
AS> euthenasia. (Whether
JB> You mean like the generations that sold their children or
JB> exposed them on a hillside when they were unwanted? Same with
JB> their elderly. Or beat them (either end of the age spectrum)
JB> to death with impunity? Or starved them? Yep, they'd be
JB> horrified alright.
You have to pick and choose your era carefully. As a generalization
Al's idea doesn't make it.
"He who begins by loving Christianity better than Truth will
proceed by loving his own sect or church better than Christianity,
and end by loving himself better than all." --Samuel Taylor
Coleridge
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
---
* KMail 3.10m Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Ray Talley
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Re: apostate
|Date: 19 Mar 96 16:42:07
EID:a6a0 20738540
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314f4865
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to Karen Davis <=-
KM> @MSGID: 1:271/460 3136c3bc
KM> Tuesday February 27 1996 13:36, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> You expect me to believe someone who does?
KM>> Why would I believe them? They are the ones that had Christ crusified.
KD> And why should I believe someone who believes in the mythology that
he
KD> WAS crucified?
KM>
KM> You believe it to be a mythology, I do not. And to be quite frank
KM> about it, I don't understand why someone who believes it to be
KM> mythology would spend so much time here debating it.
How about that . . .
1) I'm worried that room temperature IQ fundies like you will use our schools
as recuiting ground for your delusions.
2) Relgion is the single greatest cause of suffering on the planet. (Both
yesterday and today.)
3) Willful ignorence pisses me off.
KD>> There is no more reason to believe it is true than the Mabinogion is
KD>> true.
KM>> Again your opinion.
KD> And a valid one.
KM>
KM> In your opinion, not mine.
KM>
KM> Kenneth Mcabee
Opinions are like assholes, everybody . . .
You continue to make the extraordinary claim that you have found the creator
of the universe and that IT is your personal buddy. Please demonstrate why
we should believe you.
... Why be born again when you can simply grow up?
--- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Ray Talley
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 19 Mar 96 17:51:32
EID:8637 20738e60
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314f4863
-=> Quoting Boni Hitch to Pam Gray <=-
BH> @MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e115f10
PG>Well we could but we wouldn't have as much fun...
PG>BH> I'd LOVE to be able to bash stuff around HolySmoke but the messages
PG>BH> don't go and I got tired of typing for nothing. Jeez, we could go
the
PG>BH> "Religions" at RofD--but we don't really disagree...:-)
PG>Oh well I guess we just have to talk about something else elsewhere -
we bo
PG>could check out the other debating base! :)
BH>
BH> Avoid ToxicNet unless you're into no-moderator, "brutal"...
PG>Apologies for being off topic...
BH>
BH>
BH> Who are ya apologizing to? These messages ain't goin' nowhere!...:-)
BH>
HI THERE! We hear you loud and clear. Any time would be fine.
... No Special Rights for Christers!
--- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Ray Talley
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 19 Mar 96 17:51:32
EID:4f57 20738e60
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314f4864
-=> Quoting Annette Spence to Norbert Sykes <=-
NS> SW> May God Almighty surround you Sue with a hedge of His angelic Host
to
NS> SW> protect you and guide you into a full knowledge of the truth. Have
a
NS>
NS> KC> And if she wants a shrubbery? A nice two-tiered one for a good
NS> KC> effect?
NS>
NS> KC> What then, eh Steve? WHAT THEN?!
AS>
AS> hey if she's not a Christian we will only pray so far for her...
What else did you have in mind? Spitting, stoning? I know, you could hope
your god-thingy would toss her into a lake of fire for all eternity. That'll
teach her!
... Why be born again when you can simply grow up?
--- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Ray Talley
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Big bird
|Date: 19 Mar 96 17:51:32
EID:13f1 20738e60
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314f4866
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Fredric Rice <=-
MM> @MSGID: 1:352/266 31367C9E
FR> Actually, Jim, any hate group you can point to which hates blacks and
FR> gays is going to be a Christanic group -- one of _your_ ideological
FR> friends. Hatred and bigotry is nearly the venue of the deity
FR> religious.
MM>
MM> Have you ever realized how discrimination is deeply engrained in our
MM> culture? Sadly, I watched a child singing along with Big Bird, "One
MM> of these things. is not like the others. One of these things just
MM> doesn't belong" Scarey thoughts. Regardless of the religious
MM> connotations, discrimination and intollerance begins it's training
MM> very early in innocent ways all through our society. * SPITFIRE v3.51
MM> Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA. -!- Alexi/Mail 2.02b
MM> (#10000) ! Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!!
Were they showing pictures of children at the time?
Because if the 'thing' that didn't belong was a red triangle in a line
of blue squares then I think thats not nessicarly negative.
Both abstract and real groups of things are defined from within and without.
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
--- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Mike Carr
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:25:51
EID:002e 20723b20
MSGID: 1:284/120 730310e2
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-> MC> Miracles have been very well documented by skeptics and
-> MC> physicians at Lourdes in France. A study of any one of those
-> MC> miracles certified there is very convincing. It becomes a
-> MC> question of evidence which is compelling enough to make prejudic
->
->
-> Please present references that document these "miracles", giving the
-> odne on them and the scientists involved.
->
-> --- msgedsq 2.1
-> * Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
->Martin,
Many books have been written on the subject of Miracles at Lourdes in France
and the scrutiny that they receive. Dr Alexis Carrel (Nobel) documents
this in "The voyage to Lourdes" N.Y., 1950. Ruth Cranston has a book "The
Miracle of Lourdes". Carrel was a skeptic and converted, Cranston, a Protestant,
a believer. Many, Many others. Have a nice day. Michael
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Angels...
|Date: 18 Mar 96 12:15:57
EID:b8af 207261e0
MSGID: 1:284/120 730310f3
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
Quoting J.j. to Dawn:
JH> You are apologizing?
Believe it or not.
JH> In HOLYSMOKE?
Who cares if it's HOLYSMOKE?
JH> For being RUDE?
Some may like to go around screaming all sorts of nasty everything at people.
I am not one of them. I choose not to resort to blatant flaming when stomped
by you guys... well, at least till the next time you really piss me off...
JH> Uh.. thanks, I guess... I hope you don't mind if I just
JH> stick it behind my ear and smoke it later. Sure thing. But don't blame
me when ya get lead-poisoning.
JH> ...Hostes aleingeni me abduxerunt
What the HELL is THAT??? :-)
... (singing) I LOVE ANGELS, YES I DO, I LOVE ANGELS, HOW BOUT YOU?... ___
Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mike Carr
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 18 Mar 96 20:31:52
EID:99a1 2072a3e0
MSGID: 1:284/120 73031104
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-> > The least we could expect from a
-> > creator God would be miracles that demonstrate His power (not His
-> > and remind us of His presence. They would also certify any revela
-> > given. A miracle at Lourdes Madame Bire became blind in February
-> > Medical exam showed blindness was due to atrophy of the papilla; i
-> > words, the optic nerve was withered at the point where it enters t
-> > Obviously, there was organic reason for her blindness. No one can
-> > such a condition. On August 5, 1908 Madame Bire received Holy Com
-> > the Grotto at Lourdes. At 10:15 a.m., the priest who was carrying
-> > Blessed Sacrament in procession passed beside her. Madame Bire at
-> > the statue of the Blessed Virgin. She was taken at once to the per
-> > Medical Bureau at Lourdes where doctors are always available. Ath
-> > Doctors are welcome to examine cases to their hearts content (one
-> > the famous Dr. Alexis Carrel, who came to scoff, but left a conver
-> > Lainey, an oculist, examined her. What he found was even more ast
-> > than a miraculous cure: She could read even the smallest letters
-> > newspaper, but the OPTIC NERVE WAS STILL WITHERED! After a month
-> > eye examination by three specialists found that the nerve had been
->
-> Why did such reports as this essentially cease coming out after World
-> Mike?? Why do you have to dredge all the way back to 1908 to find a
->
-> WHY has there been NO recognized miracles since the early 1950's, Mike
Hmmm, Time becomes the critical measure. Is there widespread contempt for
prior generations? I wonder why? Does time make any difference here, especially
in the case of Madame Bire? Of course, miracles have occured at Lourdes
and many other places in modern times. Take a moment picture your last sunset
or the first flowers of spring or the motion of your fingers responding
to your thoughts and tell me again that miracles cannot happen.
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Conversation choices
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:10:42
EID:89a4 20735940
MSGID: 1:284/120 73114d10
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Dawn Kleuser <=-
MM> Humor is indeed good for people, but I prefer the type that isn't too
MM> much at the other guys expense.
MM> Don't worry about the impression left by the first post. I didn't get
MM> off to a real smooth start here either. I may also be laughter
MM> material for some of the posters, and probably frustration material
for
MM> others. Welcome to the area, and try to grow a tough skin and a keen
MM> mind.
MM> Hey! you are from MO!! Where in MO is Linn Creek.... as in how far
MM> from Springfield?
Thanx for the reply! :-) Let's see, Linn Creek is about 2 hours north of
Springfeild. Right smack next to Camdenton... I've been here 3 years now,
grew up in New Jersey. I like it here much better. Yeah, I think I might
have the HOLYSMOKE thing pretty well understood now. :-) Well, see ya around
HOLYSMOKE, and thanx again... - Dawn BTW, what's up with your name? Just
curious. :-)
... To the game you stay a slave. - Metallica ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: CONVERSATION CHOICES
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:10:43
EID:b07b 20735940
MSGID: 1:284/120 73114d21
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Dawn Kleuser <=-
JB> Did you learn to read something of an echo before posting to it? If
JB> you did, then the experience was valuable and could save you some other
JB> problems down the line.
No, unfotunately, I did not, because I didn't know to... too late for that
now!
JB> This is the ONLY echo where you can learn things like this without
JB> getting bounced out on your ear. Good thing! Sheesh, I thought
I was gonna hafta dig myself a cyber- grave there for awhile, anyway! :-)
JB> This is HolySmoke, religious food fight and education echo. Hey,
no kidding?!?
JB> ... This echo just gets weirder and weirder. Oh wait. That's me.
JB> Sorry.
SORRY FOR WHAT??? I quote J.j. Hitt:
JH> You are apologizing?
JH> In HOLYSMOKE?
JH> For being RUDE?
I think J.j.'s way of thinking concerning this echo is quite fitting...
Wouldn't you say? :-) See ya around - Dawn
... Got to swim upstream, got a rebel seed... - Heart ___ Blue Wave/QWK
v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Ted Hollingshead
|To: All
|Sub: Conference
|Date: 19 Mar 96 19:10:55
EID:b444 20739940
TID: HyperMail! v1.20 95-0064
Is this a religion conference or a chat conference?
---
* Origin: [FidoNet] The Jungle 614-384-2042 (1:2260/315)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: 1 god + 1 god = 0 gods
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:22:00
EID:024a 20726ac0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E17
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 12:48, Jim Germiquet got back to David Rice
JG> What is it GOOD for people to do?
DR> Harm none.
JG> Well there you go ! The teachings of Jesus Christ !
Sorry, but that philosophy predates your godling by about
600 yrs. It was espoused by Confusious and later by Lao-tse,
all well before your godling was even a twinkling in Joseph's eye.
... Truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:30:00
EID:a628 20726bc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E18
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 12:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Preston Simpson
JG> I understand what you are saying. Your problem is that you percieve
JG> that God created hell, And a good god would not create a bad place.
"I, the Lord created evil. I the Lord do all these things."
Now, either your god didn't create everything or your bible
is a proven tome of lies.
Defend one or the other. It should prove to be hysterical to
watch you spin clock- or counterclockwise.
... 1st 1.01 #1024 * In the beginning, man created God.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:34:00
EID:d2e1 20726c40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E19
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 17:40, Sue Alexander got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> At the rate Mikey's twiting people, I'm suprised that he hasn't
DC> even twitted himself.
SA> He has to have something to read that he can't argue too much
SA> with.
The problem is that I've seen posts where it does look like
he's arguing with himself! Happens most of the time when he
comes up with one of his infamous analogies...
... "Faith is not rational." Mikey Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Always with me
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:36:00
EID:1d15 20726c80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 11:44, Brad Jackson got back to All
BJ> I like to post in this area (Religious Debates), to show the
BJ> young people not to fear (satan) and his deciples.
It's pretty easy, Brad: Stop believing in your boogey man. Now,
put your night light on and try and get some sleep.
... About 8 board feet short of a full cord.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:46:00
EID:2514 20726dc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 04:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> the fact that the John who supposedly wrote that gospel cannot
DC> be identified as the disciple John.
AS> On the contrary, I think it one of the most firm of the gospel
AS> identifications. We know it was around fairly early...a fragment
AS> dated 125 AD, for instance. The gospel has details which seem to be
Let's see.... 125-33=92 Add about 24 yrs = 116. Seems like that
fragment was penned by a very rather old man, Al.
AS> side steps mentioning by name John or his brother James, the sons of
AS> Zebedee, but rather cattily has "the disciple whom Jesus loved best"
So you aren't even sure just which disciple's story the gospel
was written about.
AS> style matches (even to whole phrases) the wording in the epistles of
AS> John, especially 1 John, where he specifically mentions himself as
Therefore, judging at the age of the supposed author, it's quite
likely that the words were either written in the style of, by
a very old man, or written altogether about 100 yrs after the
supposed events.
DC> This is besides the fact that there are no Roman records recording
DC> the event in the first place.
AS> followers...is not from Roman records, but from Josephus and the NT.
The insertions in Josephus have been shown to be fraudulent.
AS> in no way connected to Jesus. I suspect the fire in Rome may have
AS> done away with some of the records, but there could be any number of
AS> causes.
However, Al, the records of Pilate are extant and do not reflect
in any way the bible story of the xification.
... +Origin: SOTS NETWORK: "IHSh NOTS! fer Jeezuz!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: children
|Date: 18 Mar 96 14:01:00
EID:cbba 20727020
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 12:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Preston Simpson
JG> Maybe we should define evil here ?
JG> 1) morally wrong or bad
JG> 2) harmful or injurious
JG> 3) unfortunate or disastrous
JG> 4) an evil quality or conduct
JG> 5) harm or misfortune.
Seems like they all describe your god to a "T".
... Ad Hoc, Ad Nauseum and Ad Hominen: the Holy Trinity of Stringfellow
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORM
|Date: 18 Mar 96 19:19:00
EID:9b65 20729a60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 05:08, Al Schroeder got back to Jim Germiquet
First you say:
JG> upon leaving the body? Who knows where heaven might be ?
AS> I don't know about spirits, but I know where heaven is. Between
AS> Cindy Crawford's thighs.
Not a bad choice, but my preference would seriously be Goldie Hawn.
Then you say To: Anthony Grigor-scott
AS> Whatever the "Semtitc" people are.
AG> They are the descendents of Shem, Noah's son.
No, the SEMITIC people are. I was making fun of your typo, Anthony.
Obviously you missed the point.
Best be careful, Al, you and Lynda are starting to sound like
dyed-in-the-wool atheists!
... Photons have mass? I didn't know they were Catholic!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Elephant velvet
|Date: 18 Mar 96 19:27:00
EID:fbfe 20729b60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 16:24, Masochistic Maiden got back to Michael Hardy
MH> true, but incomplete, that's no reason to assume that all are. Some
MH> views of God may simply be wrong, period.
MM> And how would you go about determinine whos view is more correct? It
MM> seems a totally useless argument to me. Yes, sometimes we have to
Looks like you are getting the hang of it!
... Ad Hoc, Ad Nauseum and Ad Hominen: the Holy Trinity of Stringfellow
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 18 Mar 96 19:31:00
EID:7ca7 20729be0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 12:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Shelby Sherman
SS> Use Occam's Razor. In order to have a creation, you must first have
SS> a creator.
JG> I see the creation all around me. Therefore there must have been a
JG> creator. Thank you for this wonderful physical proof of god the
JG> "creator".
You have a "creator" that has killed many people with earthquakes,
floods, volcanic eruptions, etc.
Seems like your creator is less than perferct. Be careful that
a meteorite doesn't strike you dead the next time you venture
out into the streets...
... Polytheism: n., the belief that God is a Parrot.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FRIED ICE CREAM
|Date: 18 Mar 96 19:56:00
EID:b842 20729f00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 03:06, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Told you that Fried Ice Cream is real... Here's a couple of recipes
AS> Well, so much for my diet...
AS> Thanks, Dan. Saved to disc.
No problem. That was the first one I had a reply on. Looks like
there are 3 or more variations of the theme. (Saved to disk,
of course!)
One of the posters who has made it was a bit disappionted the
first time. However, he tried it again and it came out, and
I quote, "Very good!"
... Caution! Atheism can be fattening, and tastey too.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: HolySmoke FAQ /04F
|Date: 18 Mar 96 20:30:00
EID:2c9a 2072a3c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-17-96 02:25, Sean Mccullough got back to All
SM> Well, folks, that's it. The First FAQ under my curatorship.
SM> My main accomplishment this time was to get it sliced into traditional
SM> FidoNet size slices. I believe this will improve the success rate at
If this was the last of the posts, it looks like they all have
gotten here.
However, you may consider sending it less often or paring it
down a bit...
Anyhow, thanks for compiling it. I'm sure that Coridon is happy
that you took it over from him.
As Stephen Green would say:
Have fun and don't get caught!
... Encyclopedia: Brainwashing -- See: Christianity
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 18 Mar 96 20:49:00
EID:6928 2072a620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 18:10, Rob Burcham got back to Sue Armstrong
SA> Gee, how can you tell? :) The Progressive Conservatives
RB> Progressive Conservatives? Do you also have Reactionary
RB> Liberals?
They are on either side of the Neutral Activists.
... "Alex, we'll take Assimilated Races for $100." -Borg Jeopardy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: satan runs
|Date: 18 Mar 96 20:53:00
EID:7f58 2072a6a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 11:44, Brad Jackson got back to All
BJ> I would like to point out that the messages written to me have
BJ> dropped off, a lot!!
It's just that you are a twit, and an idiot to boot. Feel
grateful that you got this reply, doofus.
... "Faith is what you have when you have no facts." unknown.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:16:00
EID:62bd 20733a00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-15-96 15:28, Sean Mccullough got back to Dan Ceppa
> MH> they have proven to be no more consequential than buzzing flies --
> Trying yet again to come up with another one of your "analogies",
> Mikey? You know you haven't ever came up with one that holds
SM> The __real__ reason Hardly won't twit the ilk of Leipzig or Goldberg
SM> is that doing this would be a direct admission of defeat by
SM> intellectual superiors. As none of the ones who ARE published as
Well, I think Mikey is about to twit Glodberg. Martin has been
after him for evidence quite steady lately.
SM> Never mind that the issue is STILL the fact that Hardly has been
SM> defeated by his intellectual superiors! :-)
He insists on defending his indefensible position, insisting that
the lack of evidence "proves" his evidence. He still has yet
to provide the algorithm that shows him the "true", "analogous"
or "allegorical" portions of the bible.
Hardy appears to have begun a slow meltdown phase. It's rather
different than other fundys that go the China Syndrome route.
SM> forward this to Michael Hardy. Let's say the secret word and be
SM> rid of him!"
ROLTF!
... "Hell exists because god loves you." Mikey Hardy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MESSAGE TO ASMODEUS
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:28:00
EID:f1fe 20733b80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-15-96 01:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> tickets! It would put even professional wresting to shame with
DC> both of their lack of integrities.
AS> We can become the Don Kings of Fidonet!! Steve Winter vs. Asmodeus.
AS> Now...who can we pit that Walter Bartoo against?
How about Michael Hardy? They can each put each other on their
twit lists and complain to all about a lack of evidence that
the other doesn't have. The winner goes up against John Prewitt.
... "Bother", said Pooh as he drank his fifth Pan Galactic Gargle
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Us bans abortionspeak
|Date: 19 Mar 96 10:53:37
EID:f9ec 207356a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed827c
REPLY: 1:157/200 711304e3
Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
KDM> TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL> KDM> Note the word malicious, please.
TL>TL>Some actually 'BELIEVE' govt officials NEVER have an evil intent.
TL>
TL> KDM> Did I ever say they didn't? However, malicious has a specific
TL> KDM> definition, one that doesn't apply in this case.
TL>
TL> The word 'malice' is generally defined by most people as 'intent to
TL> do harm.' Most folks associate the word 'evil' with 'harm done
TL> intentionally.'
TL>
TL> Govt officials 'intend' to 'harm' our right of free spech via the
TL> new Communications Decency Act.
TL>
TL> How is this NOT 'malicious?'
KDM> Does the word "intent" mean anything to you? Please note that the
KDM> intent is on the part of the actor, not the actee.
Are you actually taking the position that govt 'actors' are CLUELESS about
the 'harm' they do to free speech via the Communications Decency Act?
Are you claiming govt is blindly assembling legislation that UNintentionally
'harms' free speech if enforced; that they really didn't mean it?
Are you claiming govt dosn't KNOW what is's doing? Or are you claiming
that it's a helpless captive of 'intentions' other than their own?
Are you proposing some sort of secret CONSPIRACY here?
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:09:41
EID:80b9 20735920
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed827d
REPLY: 1:157/200 71130538
Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
KDM> TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL> You may be too unconsious to shock; but, in America NOTHING is
TL>TL> legal if it dosn't comply with constitutional constraints. Maybe
TL>TL> you missed that day in civics class.
TL>
TL> KDM> No, I imagine my Government teacher was much more knowledgeable
TL> KDM> then you are, or will ever be.
TL>
TL> In teaching double standards perhaps.
KDM> Well, he was a flaming liberal, as he liked to say.
TL> KDM> What action violated Constitutional constraints?
TL>
TL> Driving a tank thru a residence occupied by men, women and children
TL> took the lives and property of some of them with apparent disregard
TL> for 'due process.' In America, you, and govt, are constitutionally
TL> forbidden to take innocent life (the kids) just because your boss
TL> said 'do it.'
KDM> They attempted to grant them due process. The Dividians refused
KDM> to accept it.
None of which creates CONSTITUTIONALLY legal justification for govt agents
to run tanks (armored assault vehicles) thru a residence occupied by INNOCENT
children.
KDM> What were the government agents supposed to do,
We employ and pay THEM to figure out what to do that is CONSTITUTIONALLY
legal. If govt agents can't figure out a CONSTITUTIONALLY legal way to
do a job they should quit taking the paycheck and should resign.
TL>TL> KDM> What rank? If I remember correctly, that defense is a
TL>TL> KDM> applicable to people under a certain rank.
TL>
TL> ANOTHER day you missed in civics class, apparently.
KDM> Ah, I see. We are talking about two different things. The
KDM> Dividians did not want to accept their rights under the law, so
KDM> there was no reason to attempt to give them to them again.
TL> Every PERSON is accountable under constitutionally authorized law for
TL> the harm they do to another. Even Nazi grunts were held accountable
TL> at Nuremberg.
KDM> That wasn't Constitutional law, Terry.
What're you claiming here? That the U.S. Constitution somehow allows American
govt agents to get away with stuff that even the Nazi soldiers were brought
to justice over?
Can you actually DO abstract thinking; or is this all just over your head?
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:31:12
EID:c119 20735be0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed827e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314ccf49
Preston Simpson wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
DW> Lie #1: There were no tanks at Waco. There were a few AFVs.
TL> Armored Personell Vehicle; a tank to the rest of us. What's your next
TL> denial tactic, correct my spelling?
PS> Not quite; an AFV (that's Armored Fighting Vehicle) is not quite an
PS> APV-- there is a considerable difference in terms of armament and
PS> troops carried.
[yawn response to tedious denial tactic]
PS> Oh, and it's hardly a denial tactic. The use of the word "tank" to
PS> describe a vehicle that clearly isn't is misleading. A good example
PS> of an MBT would be the M1A1 Abrams, a far cry from the M2 Bradley.
PS> (The Bradleys are what were present at Waco, if you didn't know).
I'm sure these are meaningful distinctions in a professionaal or hobby context.
In this context, millions watched, on TV, what they percieved to be 'TANKS'
battering that residence occupied by men, women and children.
Your attempt to shift focus to nitpicking distinctions are irrelevent in
this context. To the average person that looked like, and went thru the
wall like a TANK.
"I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and children
and having a big
****------------> tank <----------------------****
coming through the front door. And they penetrated a room's length or more...
This is America. This isn't a police state. I don't care what they did.
I can't see that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't realize the
****------------> tanks <-------------------****
had done that until I was shown by the govenment," she said.
- Juror at trial of surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press
story in Mar 1, 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
Some of the children we were 'saving' DIED this way.
Should the 'tank' drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
they
'were just following orders?'
Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have been NO
criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [1/2] Waco Rememberance
|Date: 19 Mar 96 12:45:33
EID:b8bd 207365a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed827f
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 278b902b
Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
>>> Part 1 of 2...
-=> Quoting Terry Liberty-parker to Jim Germiquet <=-
TL> Did someone put a gun to these agent's heads, to FORCE them to take
TL> these govt jobs?
JG>
JG> You really missed the point entirely. You know a lot of people say
JG> that they would rather have an employee that made mistakes, because
JG> at least it showed he was making the effort to DO something
Ther's no CONSTITUTIONALLY legal option 'to DO something' like run a tank
thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
JG> instead of just sitting on his butt criticising what others are
JG> doing.
Regardless of being in a 'sitting' position or not, the job of the citzen
is to keep his mouth open with critism.
JG> I am sure that if they had not sent in the tanks and then gotten
JG> in the next day and found a bunch of dead bodies, you would now be
JG> screaming "they should have busted down the wall, they should have
JG> busted down the wall,
Not I; though I'm sure some would have.
JG> they killed those children by their inaction"
There's a difference between not preventing a death vs causing one.
JG> I simply refuse to believe that all these people are so calloused
JG> that they would deliberately murder children for no reason . So
JG> you tell me what horrible reason would motivate the government to
JG> ruthlessly murder children?
I said 'manslaughter;' I didn't say 'murder.' If it comes out during the
trial that KILLING was indeed INTENDED, I'm sure the charges can be escalated.
TL> Imagine the environment created in that residence by OUR employees.
TL> The smoke induced blinding, from CS gas and fire, combined with
TL> collapsing structural supports and stairs, to disorient the occupants
TL> thus trapping them.
JG>
TL> Some died from smoke inhalation, some from live burning, some from
TL> weapons wounds (trial did not determine source), some from tank induced
TL> blunt force trauma to the skull.
JG>
JG> I agree, that is a terrible picture. But so is the sight of bodies
JG> blown to bits by a suicide bomber.
TL> As far as I know, our govt dosn't employ 'suicide bomgers; at least
TL> not publicly. The point is that WE are responsible for the actions
of
TL> OUR official employees, the govt agents.
JG> Again the POINT was that perhaps the govt was afraid that Koresh
JG> who was OBVIOUSLY in my opinion mentally unbalanced , was capable
JG> of killing everyone in there and himself in a murder suicide plot.
He had 51 days to do that, so it's not 'obvious' that murder suicide was
about to happen. Govt's cover story to that effect is BOGUS in that the
tank assault started early morning and persisted for hours.
Murder suicide could have been done during those many hours, days and even
months before the siege.
JG> Obviously they miscalculated and I believe INADVERTANTLY caused the
JG> death of these children.
That's called 'manslaughter' when you and I do it; then we get our day in
court to explain it to a jury.
JG> I agree that their jobs should be at stake for this miscalculation.
JG> But I would not just brand them as "child killers".
That's what they did. I didn't say 'murder.'
JG> I think there intent was to save the children, not harm them.
And just like you and me, they should get to tell it to a jury. Do you
believe they are some kind of elite force that's excused from the same laws
that the rest of us live under; an 'accidental' killer elite?
JG> And to label the criminal as a "victim" is also a pathetic attempt
JG> to cast aspirtions on those honorable men who risk their lives
JG> daily to serve and protect all citizens.
In what way are, or were, the CHILDREN who died, from govt tank induced
blunt force trauma to the skull, 'CRIMINAL?'
JG> And why these maniacs chose armed resistance with women and
JG> children, rather than surrendering to the authorities.
TL> Thye are not our employees. We are not accountable for thier actions.
TL> No amount of discounting these people would justify running tanks thru
TL> a residence occupied with men, women and children.
JG> This has been responded to,
You've said NOTHING that excuses or justifies running tanks thru a residence
occupied by men, women and children.
JG> and the justification was there to take action
a TANK assault?
JG> the action "may" be questionable, especially in terms of location.
JG> preparation and timing.
Do tell! That's why the tank drivers should be indicted and tried; to ascertain
guilt or innocence.
JG> That is not a judgement that you are authorized to make.
Oh yes it is! 'Judgements' ARE what we are constitutionally 'authorized
to make' about civil servants who harm people.
Otherwise we are in a POLICE STATE.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:00:30
EID:3252 20737000
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed8280
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 278b902c
Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
JG> I tend to agree that this was a bad move, and that the people
JG> responsible should lose their jobs for not finding a better method
JG> of resolving the situation. Unless you can prove otherwise however,
JG> I will give them the benefit of a doubt that they felt that a
JG> murder suicide similar to the Jimmy Jones thing was an immediate
JG> possibility. And based on the "armed" resistance to law enforcement
JG> officers in the performance of their duties.
TL> Is THAT your method of 'looking the other way?'
JG> No it is my way of saying, there was a possibility of danger to the
JG> children. The authorities had to make a decision. They made it to
JG> the best of the knowledge available to them at that time hindsight>
'Not hindsight' but apparently mind reading on your part.
JG> It turned out to be a bad move.
Running a TANK thru a residence occupied by men, women and children might
'turn out to be bad move;' not hindsight, but forsight.
JG> There is no evidence of intent to harm the children.
'Intent' is something hopefully discovered at a trial of someone who harms
another. We already know they DID the harm.
JG> In fact I believe the intent was to save the children. My
JG> recommendation ? Try to get more reliable information on your
JG> target before you hit it. In this instance the should have done
JG> some kind of recon on the area they were going ot hit with the
JG> tank, to make sure innocent victims would not be in the area hit.
Hello, earth to Jim?
They already knew 'innocent' children were in there. They were telling
the rest of us that as a pretext for the 'rescue' operation.
Oh duahh!!
JG> However that can also be difficult with COWARDS like
JG> Koresh, who use children as a shield to protect themselves !
TL> The place to make the case you present as a defence for the actions
of
TL> govt agents is at a trial of those agents for manslaughter.
JG> No it is at an investigation or inquiry to see if indeed there were
JG> better more viable options considering the situation AT THE TIME,
Irrelavent. There is NO justification for driving a tank thru a residence
that you know is occupied by men, women and children.
JG> not after the results have been recorded. If there is any evidence
JG> that the intent was to murder people and not rescue people or
JG> aprehend criminals, then you might have a case for manslaughter
JG> charges.
No. That would be a case for MURDER charges. There is plenty of publicly
seen evidence of reckless endangerment; thus MANSLAUGHTER charges.
TL> Do you want to live in, and have your kids live in, an America where
TL> govt agents can do things that would get citizens arrested without
TL> those agents being held to the same accountablility as any OTHER
TL> citizen?
[spiritual masturbation text deleted to conserve focus]
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:25:35
EID:f462 20737320
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed8282
Norbert Sykes wrote in a message to David Worrell:
NS> US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net:
NS> 1% Terry Liberty-Parker, 10% David Worrell,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
TP> Do you actually HAVE an opinion on the AbortionSpeak ban?
DW> Yes, I do. I have not chosen to share that opinion with you. The
DW> opinion that I have chosen to share with you is that you are a
DW> frightened, paranoid little git whose life is so empty that you have
DW> to dream up vast conspiracies in order to make yourself feel
DW> important.
NS> You forgot the part about the vestigial micro-genitals . . .
You 'boys' are masturbating each other in public again.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 19 Mar 96 18:10:11
EID:880c 20739140
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 314f8020
Here's what Becke Jones said to Lee Woofenden about CHRISTOLOGY:
LW> Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW>> If you are talking about the Bible, yes, I have read and studied it
LW>> for many years.
DC>> Too bad you have only read it.
LW> Dan, one of these days you're going to learn to use the English
LW> language so that people can figure out what you mean, instead of using
LW> it to make cryptic statements like this.
LW> Are you wringing your hands because I have only _read_ the Bible and
LW> have not, say, eaten it for lunch, or done some other creative thing
LW> with it?
BJ> Lee, this one is easy enough to figure out. What I took the post to
BJ> mean is that it's a shame he's only read it, and not questioned it,
or
BJ> examined it from an objective, critical viewpoint.
If that's what he meant, why didn't he say it clearly--as you just did?
LW>> Dan, the Bible is not so much a single "mythos" as a history of the
LW>> development of the mythos of a particular segment of the human race
BJ> Still doesn't discount the fact that it IS a mythos...
Your point being?
--Lee
... Don't use a big word where a diminutive one will suffice.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: EPISTEMOLOGY
|Date: 19 Mar 96 18:15:01
EID:8d92 207391e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 314f8021
Here's what Roger Hunter said to Lee Woofenden about EPISTEMOLOGY:
LW> My being dead is not the issue. Whether my death demonstrates that
LW> matter exists as matter is the issue. Do you see that Hector's
LW> experiment does not demonstrate that?
RH> No, it does not demonstrate anything about the fundamental nature
RH> of matter. But it does get rid of your metaphysical argument.
What is my metaphysical argument? And how does Hector's experiment get rid
of it?
LW> Admit it? Haha! I've been making that same statement ever since this
LW> debate first started!
RH> Then I stand corrected.
In that you are almost unique among the atheists on this echo. ;-)
LW> "Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is
LW> only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times
the
LW> results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure
LW> that the next time the result will not contradict the theory."
LW> --Stephen Hawking, _A Brief History of Time_
RH> Hypothetically I will agree, but in practical terms, enough is enough.
RH> Absolute proof is not necessary.
Not to get along with our lives, no. Even Hawking seems unsure of whether
a Grand Unified Theory would have much practical application.
However, there are people here demanding some kind of strict, scientific
demonstration that things such as God and spirit exist. I replied, essentially,
by saying that you cannot give any kind of strict, scientific demonstration
that _matter_ exists--so people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Most of 'em haven't gotten the point yet.
LW> Since our common experience is so far off-base when it comes to the
LW> real nature of practically everything we come in contact with, why are
LW> you so willing to trust it to tell us what is the nature of reality?
RH> Because I was not concerned with the fundamental nature of reality but
RH> with the classical reality in which we live and die.
If you want to say, "I'm not interested in knowing about that," you certainly
have a right to close your eyes to such issues. However, it would not behoove
you to then turn around and demand that those who include God and spirit
in their "classical reality in which they live and die" to provide demonstrations
of the existence of those things when you are not willing to ask the same
questions and provide the same demonstrations about your own conception
of the "classical reality in which we live and die."
It is far more "classical," BTW, to include God and spirit in one's conception
of reality than to exclude them.
--Lee
... DAY, n. A period of 24 hours, mostly misspent. --A. Bierce
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: christology
|Date: 19 Mar 96 18:25:07
EID:673d 20739320
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 314f8022
REPLY: 1:153/792 314771ba
Here's what Kelsey Bjarnason said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> Medically, the definition is usually a functional one, as
LW> mentioned above--something about cessation of heartbeat for a
LW> certain length of time or the absence of measurable brain
LW> activity.
KB> You'll note, of course, that cessation of heartbeat doesn't mean
KB> diddly except in special circumstances where an actual determination
KB> of more significant factors isn't possible.
I.e., most of the time. Only a few dying people are hooked up to EEGs.
KB> Which is to say, if we're talking about death as a general
KB> concept, we'd better leave "cessation of heartbeat" out of
KB> things; it doesn't cut it.
If it continues for more than a few minutes it does. A determination of
the presence or absence of heartbeat is the _most common_ way people check
to see if a person is alive or dead. Most people don't walk around with
EEG machines. They check the pulse.
LW> In practice, these functional definitions do not necessarily
LW> specify permanence. That is why there are numerous cases of
LW> people being declared dead by a doctor or nurse and then
LW> reviving.
KB> Do you know of any case of a person whose brain activity has been
KB> reduced to zero, and survived?
My MS Encarta '95 says "The finding of a flat, or waveless, EEG in persons
in coma has been interpreted as an absence of brain function and used as
legal evidence of death" In other words, a person can still be biologically
alive--heartbeat and everything--with a flat EEG.
Looks like we can cut absence of brain activity out of things too...
Now how in the world are we going to define "death"?
(BTW, I'd be happy to be corrected by a medically trained person if I'm
wrong, but I seem to recall that it is not all that uncommon for people
to briefly register a flat EEG and come back out of it to regain full consciousness.)
LW> It's all a matter of what definition of death you use.
KB> Well, according to your "cessation of heartbeat", then we have to
KB> assume that every doctor who performs a heart transplant is a killer
-
KB> since his "victim" not only has the heart stop, but actually removed.
That is why the definition above is careful to say the flat EEG is used
as _legal_ evidence of death. If we define "death" legally as "absence of
measurable brain activity," then a doctor cannot legally be considered a
murderer for removing live organs from a comatose person with a flat EEG,
even if every other organ in the person's body is still functioning normally.
Yet that person is still biologically alive. Absence of measurable brain
activity may (or may not) be a good _legal_ definition of death. But it
cannot be used to reliably define biological death.
Looks like it's not so easy to define death after all...
--Lee
... This message made from 100% recycled electrons!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 19 Mar 96 18:49:05
EID:8238 20739620
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 314f8023
REPLY: 1:153/792 314771bb
Here's what Kelsey Bjarnason said to Lee Woofenden about Epistemology 1/2:
KB> Funny, though, isn't it. I mean, science in its modern form has been
KB> around what, a couple hundred years? And a scientific theory is
KB> usually debunked - if it is going to be - in a rather shorter period,
KB> no?
KB> Yet when it comes to something such as "gods", the notion has been
KB> around for umpteen millenia, and in all that time nobody has been
KB> able to offer even a method of detecting the thing being discussed -
Not true at all. Various religious teachers, sages, and mystics have been
offering methods of "detecting" (i.e., experiencing) God and spirit for
umpteen millennia. If you reject their methods out of hand, that is not
their fault.
KB> let alone agreed on its properties, its causes, its effects, its
KB> impact upon the universe, or, indeed, anything else about it.
In this very message I pointed out a group of people who _do_ agree on its
properties, causes, effects, impact on the universe, and most other things
about it.
KB> Hell, even those who limit their discussions to a particular
KB> "god" can't agree what its properties are - even when given a
KB> handbook which supposedly derives from that entity itself.
IMO, most of the people arguing about God are not interested in God--they're
interested in power.
KB> Exactly how long should we give these people to figure out what they
KB> are talking about before we conclude that they're all a pack of
KB> wackos?
Who is "we"? As far as I know, you're the only one who can decide for yourself
what you wish to believe about someone else and their beliefs. You can't
decide that for anyone else... unless you prefer the "follow the crowd"
philosophy--which is in itself a choice of beliefs.
LW>Stating that the objects of spiritual seeking do not exist because there
is
LW>no agreement about them is equivalent to stating that the cosmos does
not
LW>exist because there is no agreement on a Grand Unified Theory that can
LW>combine relativity and quantum mechanics, and bring the four known forces
LW>under one theory.
KB> Not quite.
KB> Do we have a means of detecting the existence of matter and energy?
Not directly. We can only detect their presumed effects.
KB> Do we have a means of detecting the existence of deities/spirits?
Yes. There are many methods. All of us will experience at least one of them:
physical death.
KB> Do we have a means of comprehending the properties of matter and
KB> energy?
Yes. Our physical senses.
KB> Do we have a means of comprehending the properties of
KB> deities/spirits?
Yes. Our minds and our spiritual senses.
KB> I could make lists such as this all day long. What does it tell us?
It tells me that you know a fair amount about the laws of science but very
little about the laws of spirit.
KB> It tells us that while we might not have all the answers when it
KB> comes to understanding the universe, that sets us miles apart from
KB> those on the deity/spirit side of the issue, who don't seem to have
KB> any answers, except whatever makes them feel happy at that time.
I can refer you to books with very detailed answers about God and spirit
of the sort you are requesting. But as they say, "You can lead a horse to
water, but you can't make him drink."
KB> In short, it strikes me as the difference between "It appears to be
KB> this way because repeated independant observation supports the notion
KB> that it is this way" versus "It is this way because I say so."
Those who try to tell you that God and spirit are a certain way "because
I say so" probably do not know what they are talking about. Someone who
has really experienced these things will simply describe them and allow
others do draw their own conclusions. They would never try to force it on
someone else, since that is intrinsically contrary to the way God and spirit
work.
KB> Sure, you can't state as an absolute that the one is correct and
KB> the other is wrong - but one way leads to stultification while the
KB> other allows us to advance and learn.
And yet many great scientists have not only been religious people but have
considered their religion and their science to be integrally connected.
LW> KB> there has to
LW> KB> be cogitation for that to occur, and I defy you to cogitate upon
LW> KB> that which you cannot determine any physical properties for.
LW>You defy me? It's a simple task. You can do it too. Cogitate upon truth,
LW>beauty, logic, the laws of mathematics. None of those have any physical
LW>properties, yet we can cogitate on them all day if we wish.
KB> Really? Okay. Without applying physical properties, such as the
KB> interactions of photons upon your eye, think about "beauty".
I rarely even think about interactions of photons upon my eye when I am
considering beauty, let alone applying them.
KB> No, you cannot consider "That mountain is beautiful", as that would
KB> involve the existence of the mountain, the light which impacted your
KB> eyes from that mountain, and so forth.
Photons and eyes may have had something to do with getting the object into
my mind, but they have nothing to do with beauty itself, which is an entirely
psychological entity.
KB> You can't even imagine a purely "imaginary" mountain, as it would
KB> be based upon your observations of physical mountains and
KB> physical light.
That has nothing to do with beauty. The mountain in itself is neither beautiful
nor ugly. We create the judgment or perception of beauty in our own minds.
The photons hitting the eye are simply raw sensory data.
KB> What you would have to do, then, is to "imagine" something which has
KB> absolutely no relation whatsoever to anything at all in your entire
KB> physical existence and experience, and then, without attempting to
KB> understand it in terms of physically-defined observations such as
KB> sight, or sound, or smell, determine whether or not it had "beauty".
Irrelevant, as explained just above. Beauty is quite distinct from the physical
existence of a mountain, a tree, etc.
KB> Sure, the "beauty" that you see on your screen is merely a handful
KB> of electrons;
There is no beauty in the screen. That is in my mind.
KB> however, I defy you to cogitate upon "beauty" at any level
KB> without involving the purely physical at some level.
It doesn't matter if there _is_ something physical out there that we consider
beautiful. The beauty itself is non-physical, because it is a psychological
construct.
KB> (PS: I'm going to grant, for this little experiment, that "you"
KB> - your mind - is not a part of "the physical" for these purposes.
KB> That is, the physical movement of currents in the brain will not
KB> impact the attempt to cogitate "beauty" in a non-physical manner.)
If you grant that, you have granted me the argument.
LW>The problem is, we all have a great deal of empirical knowledge of material
LW>things, but we have very little empirical knowledge of spiritual things.
KB> Why is that, do you suppose? I mean, with all the people who claim
KB> they hear God, or Jesus, with all the people who claim their prayers
KB> have been answered, why is it that we still can't even agree what it
KB> is we're talking about?
We haven't agreed on the fundamental nature of the physical universe. Why
do you think we would have agreed on the fundamental nature of something
far more complex and elusive--the spiritual universe?
LW>Contrary to what you are implying, when religious mystics gather together
(as
LW>they did at the 1993 World Parliament of Religions in Chicago) and talk
about
LW>their spiritual experiences, they immediately recognize the experience
of the
LW>other mystics as variations on their own experience. They recognize that
the
LW>spiritual "objects" described as encountered by other mystics match the
LW>spiritual "objects" they themselves have encountered.
KB> Really? So when I walk in and tell them that Odin has talked to me
KB> and denounced this upstart "God" critter, the Christian leaders of the
KB> world are all going to think to themselves, "Ahh. Another fellow holy
KB> man who has had contact with a supreme being!"
KB> Not bloody likely. Much more likely they're going to brand me a
KB> heretic and chase me out - even though I may be absolutely sincere in
KB> my claim.
The Christian leaders of the world are not mystics. For the most part, they
are clerics--religio-political leaders of human organizations. There _are_
genuine Christian mystics out there--such as Thomas Merton--but generally
they are not considered "Christian leaders." So if you went to Christian
leaders, you'd be going to the wrong crowd.
If you _did_ go to the right crowd and started telling them what you said
above, they would know immediately that you had not experienced God--though
you might have gotten tangled up in some deceptive realms of the spirit
world. More likely, they would immediately perceive that you were an atheist
attempting to attack the idea of God and spirit--which is, in fact, what
you are doing.
LW>_You_ may not be able to distinguish spirit from delusion, but that is
LW>because you (apparently) have not experienced spirit directly yet.
KB> Odd, isn't it? I mean, I keep looking for even the simplest little
KB> bit of evidence that these things exist, and can't find any. Oh, a
KB> lot of folks tell me "you gotta have faith", but then, if I simply
KB> adopt a faith, I haven't accomplished anything, have I? I mean, a
KB> faith in a god, or in a cheese sandwich, is still nothing more than
KB> believing in the unevidence for no real reason whatsoever.
You are looking for material (scientific) evidence of a non-material entity.
You will not find it because you are looking in the wrong place. That would
be like studying fish to try to learn about the behavior of birds.
LW> Those who have can quite easily distinguish the two--and they
LW> agree with each other when they describe the nature of the
LW> distinction.
KB> Funny; they haven't been able to tell us how they tell the
KB> difference.
Of course not. They can't tell you because you are not listening. You have
closed your mind to it. That makes it impossible for anyone to tell you
anything about the distinction between spirit and matter.
--Lee
... Do not attempt to traverse a chasm in two leaps.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: christology
|Date: 19 Mar 96 22:52:16
EID:3107 2073b680
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 314f8d0a
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89420E22
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> If you are talking about the Bible, yes, I have read and studied it
LW> for many years.
DC> Too bad you have only read it.
LW> Dan, one of these days you're going to learn to use the English
LW> language so that people can figure out what you mean, instead of using
LW> it to make cryptic statements like this.
DC> Such a shame that you not only did not understand what I wrote,
DC> you can't even figure out what _you_ wrote that provided the
DC> grist for the comment.
Au contraire. I understand what _I_ wrote quite well.
DC> Now, Lee, I'll spell it out for you. If I happen to use a
DC> word over one syllable long, forgive me, as I won't dumb
DC> down my language to suite your extreme lack of erudition:
If you look at your sentence above, you will find no difficult words. Obviously,
that isn't the problem. Your problem is not in vocabulary. It's in syntax.
DC> Read the first lines of yours I've quoted. Then read the line
DC> that I responded to you. Slap youself upside your head for
DC> your lack of reading comprehension.
Show the above exchange to any college level English teacher you like. They
will tell you that your response was ambiguous.
DC> Finally, take the stairs and/or elevator to the top floor of
DC> the nearest 10 story building and demostrate reality really
DC> is only in your mind.
I've gotten this far (the end of your message, that is), and I'm still waiting
for you to "spell it out for me."
What exactly did you mean when you wrote, "Too bad you have only read it"?
I am still curious to know.
--Lee
... Get the facts first--you can distort them later!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: christology
|Date: 19 Mar 96 23:05:15
EID:3107 2073b8a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 314f8d0b
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89420E23
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
DC> Problem is, Lee, that the mythos was stolen from other extant
DC> mythos.
LW> "Stolen"? That's applying 20th century views on intellectual property
LW> rights to people who lived a millennia ago when no such idea existed.
DC> "Though shalt not steal." Too bad your book is so selective of
DC> what it calls theft, Lee.
It amuses me that you continue to refer to the Bible as "my book," since
I, for one, do not claim any authorship of it whatever.
It amazes me that you seem to have no concept of the development of ethical
systems, and that you would be so anachronistic as to think that 20th century
concepts of intellectual property rights would apply several millennia ago.
LW> People in those days freely borrowed from earlier works, and even
DC> Such a pity that the ideas that your book espouses aren't original,
DC> isn't it. Takes a lot away from those "god given words" knowing
DC> that "heathens" had the same basic ideals.
Not at all. God says the same thing to every culture. Each simply hears
it a bit differently and therefore writes it down a bit differently. I would
be suspicious if there were _not_ some common thread running through the
"mythos" of the various cultures. God doesn't care about copyright, as long
as the ideas get out there.
DC> The bigger problem is that those that stole it didn't just make
DC> it into a mythology, they made it into a religion.
LW> Rather, various groups of people made it into multiple differing
LW> religions. Some of those religions became popular and survived; others
LW> died out.
DC> Unfortunately, yours survived.
There you go implying that you know what my religion is. When will you accept
my challenge, Dan? Describe my religion for me, since you seem to know more
about it than I do.
DC> Your problem, Lee, is that I have read it. And, not just once and
DC> not from what I was supposed to read.
LW> Then why do you persist in such a simple-mindedly literal
LW> interpretation of it?
DC> Without literalism, your book of fables is nothing different than
DC> any number of religions and philosophies. Once you see that, you
DC> will realize that it's not the book that matters, but the real
DC> ideals that any thinking individuals have that is important.
I realized what you say in your second sentence many years ago, Dan--probably
about the time I was eight or ten years old and first began to think critically
about religion. I'm glad to see you've caught up. As for your first statement,
why is it so important to you that the religion of the Bible be different
from other religions and philosophies?
LW> question is not so much, "What does the Bible say?" as "How do we
LW> interpret what the Bible says, and what weight do we give to it?"
DC> Take that further: Take it to the point that you will allow others
DC> that do not buy into your mythos to exercise their own choice of
DC> religion and/or non-belief. Can you do that?
I've been doing that since I was a young child--as my religion taught me
to do.
LW> Dan, you really haven't been paying attention, have you?
DC> It's quite apparent that you are very far lost. You haven't
DC> given the least amount of credence to any religion outside your
DC> little world, let alone to any philosphy that doesn't deal
DC> with any god.
How do you know that? I find it fascinating that you know so much about
my beliefs without the benefit of even _asking_ me what I believe.
LW> I have stated several times that I believe everybody has a right to
LW> believe whatever they want and live however they want as long as they
LW> don't infringe on the rights of others to do the same. Further, my own
DC> Then, do vote against any group and/or person that makes a
DC> religious agenda as their platform.
When I vote, I vote Libertarian. I wouldn't vote for the religious right
even if they agreed to pay off my credit card debt.
--Lee
... I think, therefore I am a libertarian.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: christology
|Date: 19 Mar 96 23:23:32
EID:b1d1 2073bae0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 314f8d0c
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31483f73
Here's what David Worrell said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW>> It is inimical to God to hurt other human beings because God
LW>> wishes us to be happy, and hurting others does not tend toward
LW>> their happiness.
PS>> No? The conquistadores, Crusaders, Inquisitors, and other fine
PS>> Christians would disagree with you. Why are you correct?
LW> I presume from your question that you object to what those people did.
LW> So you tell me: why am I--and you--correct?
DW> Are you physically incapable of directly answering a
DW> question, Lee? I'm sure there is treatment for that, but you
DW> have to admit you have a problem before you can seek treatment.
You have a very simplistic view of dialog if you think direct answers to
questions are the only admissible responses. I give direct answers where
I think they will be useful and further the conversation. At other times,
I use other types of responses as the conversation seems to warrant.
DW> I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that you also don't
DW> like hurting other human beings. If I was to go around killing and
DW> torturing in your name and you had the power to stop me, would you?
That would depend on the cost. If it meant the spiritual destruction of
the human race, I would not do it, since in that case my crime would be
worse than yours. A solution is not a solution if it causes collateral damage
greater than the damage it is supposed to be correcting. This is the situation
God faces in working to correct human evil.
--Lee
... Even a perfect program still has bugs. --The Tao of Programming.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:00:50
EID:1726 20737000
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f46f2
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 278b903d
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Martin and Jim were killing time yakking about 1 god plus 1 god plus:
MG> Damned right I do. You claim your god is real? Let's have some real
MG> evidence for him, not a bunch of philosophical bullshit, and certainly
MG> not a bunch of excuses telling me how "god is a spirit and there's not
MG> physical evidence et al." REal things leave real evidence. Physical
MG> evidence. If it's not there, I have to conclude that the god is nto
MG> there.
JG> Those are my opinions and while you may consider them "bullshit", it
JG> doesn't make them so.
JG> Well obviously Jesus and God are real because there are MILLIONS of
JG> people who believe in them and act upon those beliefs.
PRECISELY the same could be said about Santa Claus and Rudolf.
JG> Under your defintion, you must live a very empty life, because since
Are you TRYING to use every cliche in the FAQ, or does this come naturally
to you?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "What to do when you win the Lottery" book: costs $1.6 million
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [2/2] Your Daily Murder
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:06:34
EID:f6ad 207370c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f46f3
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 278b9042
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Jim were killing time yakking about [2/2] Your Daily Murder:
JG> Again consider the fear during the Japanese interment. You were
JG> fighting a nation that had sneak attacked you before formally declaring
JG> war. You were also fighting a nation with an ideology of "kamikaze"
JG> attacks and "hari kari", which denotes little respect for life or some
JG> of the moral values that Americans understood. How could you trust
JG> people that had come from that type of culture, not to return to their
JG> roots during an attack by their mother land on your own. Would you turn
LB> Many of the people placed in the camps did not see Japan as their
LB> "motherland" any more than I claim Ireland as mine. They were born
LB> American -- they weren't trusted because they weren't Caucasian, plain
LB> and simple. We weren't putting GERMAN Americans into camps, afraid
LB> that they might choose allegiance with the land of their grandparents,
LB> were we?
JG> I did note some differences, especially the "sneak attack" that was
so
JG> hated. But I am sure you do have a point. I just don't think, that was
JG> all there was to it.
The "sneak attack" (about which there is evidence that our government was
aware of it, but wanted to have a strong reason to engage in war in Pacific)
is absolutely NO justification for interring a group of US citizens based
on their ancestry.
JG> your back on a Japanese person when Japan was at war with your country
JG> ? It was not a case of trying to exterminate the Japanese, but of self
JG> preservation I would think.
LB> Self-preservation of one group of fearful Americans at the cost of
LB> another group of Americans, who not only had to fear the possibility
of
LB> Japanese attack (and certainly aware that Japanese culture would have
LB> shown them no mercy for their American lifestyle, but also the very
LB> REAL fear of enduring hostility and blatent theft of every thing they
LB> had at the hands of fellow Americans, who once again decided that the
LB> only True Americans are white and Christian.
JG> Agreed. I guess there has allways been that KKK, Neo Nazi segment
JG> especially that still is allowed to openly persue such hostile and
JG> especially when some of the members, are also members of law
JG> enforcement agencies.
Yes, there will be. But in order for them to gain the power to actually
accomplish any of their goals, a whole lot of so called "reasonable people"
have to stand by and make excuses for it, like saying "Yeah, this isn't
very nice, but hey! Would you turn your back on a Japanese person when
Japan was at war with your country?"
Not that I am trying to insinuate that I think you are a reasonable person,
of course.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... I believe in grumbling; it is the politest form of fighting known.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:16:38
EID:838c 20737200
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f46f4
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 14c5931e
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Kenneth and Steve were killing time yakking about apostate:
KM> What's a fundy?
KM> Kenneth Mcabee
SR> Steve rolls his eyes, sighs once again and holds the mirror up to
SR> reflect the face of the young Kenny fundy with apparently no memory.
SR> "There...THAT is a fundy. Recognize yourself, now?"
Fool's errand, Steve. Fundys don't have any reflection.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Nice mirror!", said Tom reflectively.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Christanic ritual canabilism
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:19:37
EID:da4d 20737260
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f46f5
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 314e2e91
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric and Robert were killing time yakking about Christanic ritual canabilism:
FR> I think it's always best to look for signs of deity belief before
RJ> making FR> even the first date.
RJ> Yeah, but sometimes it just doesn't happen that way.
RJ> Y'know, like if they don't bring it up right away and kind
RJ> of say something a few weeks or months later that just makes
RJ> you turn around and go, "WHAT?! GOD?? should put WHO--in
RJ> an _oven_?!"
RJ> ...okay, well maybe not _that_ extreme.
hehe.
Maybe you should suggest attending church on the first date. If she runs
away screaming, she might be the girl for you. Of course, then you have
the
problem of convincing her you aren't psychotic....
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Automobiles were part of teenage mating rituals." -- Data
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:32:45
EID:5390 20737400
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f46f6
REPLY: 1:271/460 314d926d
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Becke and Kenneth were killing time yakking about STAAL WON'T DRINK IT:
BJ> My point is simple. You can't use circular logic to show that something
BJ> exists. (i.e. How do you know God exists? Cause the bible says so...How
do
BJ> you know the Bible exists? Because God says so...) That, m'dear, does
not
BJ> work in a rational sense. What we are speaking of is evidence outside
the
BJ> Bible...
KM> I know the Bible exist because it is sitting in front of me. I know
KM> God exist because the Bible says so. According to you, that's not
KM> circular.
She's saying (correctly) that it IS circular.
"I know "The Wizard of Oz" exists because it is sitting here in front of
me.
I know the Glenda the Good exists because "The Wizard of Oz says so."
Is that rational? Can I now insist that everyone stare into the mirror
and
send signals to Ozma so they be teleported to Oz? After all, Baum's stories
said that Dorothy got one -- why not ALL True Believers in Oz?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Circular logic will only get you dizzy.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 20 Mar 96 00:50:25
EID:7f8c 20740640
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f5f63
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 314dba31
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
David and Don were killing time yakking about Angels Or Demons???:
DM> With that in mind, does it come as any surprise that the
DM> fig represents the pudendum in Mediterranian iconography?
DM> The "sign of the fig" (thrumb tip thrust between index and
DM> middle fingers) plays on the same association, the thumb
DM> standing clitorally within the vulvic embrace of the
DM> fingers. This is and was widely used as a gesture of
DM> derision and may be seen in German depictions of the Passion
DM> from the 15th century, among other places. "I care nat a
DM> figge," quod Chaucer; "a fig for't," responds Shakespeare.
How interesting! (I'm always learning something new from you, Don.)
The Germans still use that sign, BTW, in the same context in which we
"give the finger", but I never thought about what the intent of it was.
Now an intriguing question (and one for which I have no answer...): why
do Americans use a symbol of male genitalia as a symbol of derision, and
the Germans use a symbol of female genitalia?
Meanwhile, I will just sit here and have a small chuckle over the number
of
Victorian era "girl's books" I've read that contain the phrase "I don't
give
a fig for it" coming from the lips of chaste young females.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Boys will be boys, & so will some middle-aged men.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Better then This!
|Date: 20 Mar 96 00:55:06
EID:09b0 207406e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f5f64
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 314dba34
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Brad and Don were killing time yakking about Better then This!:
BJ> Evan the true satan
BJ> lovers have more to say then you do!
DM> Name one "true satan lover" here, apart from Asmodiddly.
DM> Got any evidence for this satan thing yet--any evidence
DM> distinguishable from the workings of human imagination, that
DM> is?
This is sad. If there is anything more pathetic than calling an atheist
a satanist, it has GOT to be billing one a "false satanist".
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Please refrain from using your imagination." - Odo
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: Creation Problems- 3
|Date: 20 Mar 96 00:58:56
EID:8e66 20740740
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f5f65
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
All and Becke were killing time yakking about Creation Problems- 3:
This is how your document showed up here:
BJ> 6) If a day means more than 24-hour period then how are we to
BJ> interpret the following verses, as
BJ> well as scores of other. ŅSix days shalt thou labor, and do all thy
BJ> work: But the seventh day is
BJ> the sabbath.... in it thou shalt not work.... For in six days the Lord
BJ> made heaven and earth...and
etc.
I think you'd better try again. :)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "BASIC is the Computer Science equivalent of `Scientific Creationism'."
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 20 Mar 96 01:02:30
EID:f169 20740840
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f5f66
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dan and Annette were killing time yakking about Hello!:
DC> DW> Please present what you feel are Josh's three strongest arguments.
DC>
DC> AS> question. You will have to get specifc. I got that from the
DC> AS> title page by the way.
DC>
DC> Which is as close as you could come to getting even a gasp
DC> put of Josh's arguments.
AS> IF you will get specific fine. It sounds as though you dont really
AS> want me to answer it but want someone to jump on instead. I don't mind
AS> honest discussion. I won't argue over smoke.
hehe -- but this IS Holysmoke.
Dan is pretty much giving you the floor on this. Accepting that not all
of
McDowell's arguments are equally "strong", present what you feel are the
top three examples of what you consider to be valid arguement from logic.
BTW, what do you mean you got it from the title page? The idea that he's
arguing from logic? I think that's known as advertisement and self-promotion.
Of course the author would say so, but do YOU think he makes a solid logical
case? I hate to ask, but have you actually read it?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Arguement? No, this is Abuse. You want next door.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 20 Mar 96 01:17:08
EID:3dd9 20740a20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314f5f67
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Al and Becke were killing time yakking about URL!:
AS> "Men, cherish your wives as your own bodies". Just out of curiosity,
AS> did your mother try to see the elders, or the preacher? (And of
BJ> Actually, she did. My mother was very involved with the church at that
BJ> point...you could consider her a fundie at that time. It was almost
a
BJ> form of addiction, a form of escape for her. She was going through hell
BJ> at home with my step-father, but at church she would cover up and fit
BJ> in (at least before news of the divorce spread). When the news of the
BJ> divorce hit, everyone (including many women friends she had made in
the
BJ> church) suddenly started ignoring her, which basically crushed her at
a
BJ> time when she was most vulnerable. Afterwards, she turned away from
Wow. That sounds WAY too familiar. I went to my preacher (different denom,
but the same ultra-traditional take on "family values"), thinking if I told
him what was happening, he'd speak to my (now ex-) husband and make him
see
that his abuse and alcoholism were in opposition to his faith. I was
lectured at length about how *I* needed to change -- to be more submissive,
to trust him more, and that it was due to my "rebellion" that he drank
(he was FAR more concerned about that than he was the abuse). What
rebellion? Well, I had a bad habit of asking questions in Sunday School
that fell outside the "party line". And I'd recently started going back
to school -- putting myself above my husband who had no college.
During our separation, and for the brief time following the divorce, all
my acquaintences from church disappeared. My four-year-old's playmates
were suddenly unavailable. He continued to attend, and was given much
sympathy and support for having to endure a divorce from a "fallen woman."
BJ> I'm 23....this happened in 1981 or 1982...
Yikes. Even the time period lines up. I was divorced in '84.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "'Not good' is a galactic understatement." - Picard
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 20 Mar 96 08:15:56
EID:86bd 207441e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 14c59322
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 314f46f4
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda Bustilloz wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
SR> holds the mirror up to reflect the face of the young Kenny fundy
SR> with apparently no memory. "There...THAT is a fundy. Recognize
SR> yourself, now?"
LB> Fool's errand, Steve. Fundys don't have any reflection.
"Hmmmm." (Writing in the database)... "Kenny: No brains. No reflection."
Ok...I entered the info. Thanks.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: children
|Date: 20 Mar 96 08:20:35
EID:df41 20744280
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 14c59324
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0009fa35
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Larry Bevard wrote in a message to Kevin D. McKenzie:
LB> do. We are to treat others as we would like to be treated, Love
LB> each other as Jesus loved us.
And like a good little sheep...you blindly follow what your myth-masters
tell you to do. Here let me adjust your ball-and-chain for you. Your ankles
are swelling a bit.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 19 Mar 96 19:59:00
EID:4b52 20739f60
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> THAT is the issue. In other words, he sends us to hell for
MB> eternity for deeds that he commits with impunity.
AS> Ahhh, but there is another issue here. Remember, in terms of the
AS> Judeo-Christianic frame, death entered the world not through God's
AS> will, but against God's express orders. In other words, all death is
a
AS> result of
AS> what happened in the Garden of Eden. "If you eat thereof, you shall
AS> surely
AS> die." There was a clear warning there, which was ignored. Is death
AS> the result of God (given the Biblical frame) or of Man's disobedience
AS> to God?
And why was death the result? Did not God decide that? Worse, did not
God know in advance that Eve would decide to eat?
MB> That is the ultimate hypocracy -- especially since he has so
MB> many more choices than we do, being omni-* and all.
AS> Ahh, and if He chooses to respect OUR choices, even when it comes to
AS> things like death?
And why cannot we repent AFTER death, when we have the information we
needed to make a better choice?
... I call things as I see them; If I didn't see them, I make them up!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR AND JUST GOD
|Date: 19 Mar 96 20:07:00
EID:e37f 2073a0e0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Marilyn Burge <=-
AS> I don't think so. I think you are very much seeing a case of a
AS> longsuffering nature in action. How many centuries had children been
AS> sacrificed to Molech, I wonder? How long did God restrain Himself
Wouldn't it have made more sense to pop in, say "Knock it OFF!" and
thus save all those children?
AS> from wiping them from the face of the earth for that abomination, due
AS> to His scruples against altering free will? What you are seeing is
AS> when He finally DOES lose His temper, justifiably, after witnessing
AS> centuries of atrocity. He turned His cheek, figuratively, for
AS> centuries, perhaps millenia. He forgave them time and time again. But
AS> make no mistake, when God DOES move, He moves quickly and completely
AS> and irresistibly.
And indescriminantly too, killing everyone as in Noah...
AS> (Amused smile.) No, you just swat them.
AS> No, you don't insist that mesquitoes adhere to your
AS> standards for your ethical conduct. You DO insist that they adhere
AS> to YOUR standards for THEIR conduct. In other words, if too many
AS> buzz you, you will spray them, or use a bug-killer---you will KILL
AS> them, something you would not do to something you considered an
AS> equal, no matter how
AS> annoying. You have a different standard for their behavior than you
AS> do for yours.
But we don't toast them for eternity either, do we?
... This tagline is made just for Al Schroeder
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 19 Mar 96 01:53:56
EID:86ee 20730ea0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314fc478
-=> Quoting Alan Hess to David Worrell <=-
AH> David, anyone can talk to gods, elves, pixies, and imaginary
AH> friends - it's when they think these gods talk back that problems
AH> arise. Heck, people talk to real things that can't talk back all
AH> the time. For example, baseballs - when a long fly ball is hit,
AH> people say, "go, ball - get out of here." Obviously, those pleas
AH> don't change the trajectory of the ball or the distance it travels,
AH> but talking to the ball isn't considered a problem unless someone
AH> claims the ball talked back.
My illusions are shattered! I thought my threats to drop-kick
broken instruments at work really DID something! The fact that I am
usually doing something to fix the problem while threatening the
instrument wouldn't happen to have anything to do with it, now, would it?
But then again, I can not claim that I have ever heard one of the
instruments talking back to me...unless it is in the form of an alarm,
grinding noise, or other some such "talk".
Sue
... Microbiology Lab: STAPH ONLY!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Joseph Kosturko
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 20 Mar 96 09:38:44
EID:9ab6 20744cc0
MSGID: 1:123/67 314fd463
REPLY: 1:3621/22 314d44fd
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
18 Mar 96 06:11, quoting Joseph Kosturko to All:
JK> Scientific minded atheists operate on the premise 'If I see I will
JK> believe.'
Scientific principles and atheism are not fused together. Science observes
and then explains what it observes. What is your problem with this? Please
be specific in your answer.
JK> Jesus commands us to believe so that our eyes may be opened.
Religion is 180 degrees from science. Religion starts with a conclusion
and then scrambles to try to make their mythologies match up with reality.
JK> When Thomas doubted him in John 20, Jesus showed himself and said
JK> "because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who
JK> have not seen and yet have believed."
Thomas is one of the few in the bible that I could respect. At least
(according to the myth) he asked for evidence. Here's my quote: "Blind
to the truth are those who believe what is not seen."
JK> Similarly in 1Cor2:14 Paul
JK> states that, "The man without the spirit does not accept the things
JK> that come from the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and
JK> he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually
JK> discerned(revealed)"
Meaningless. This is just some more biblical rhetoric spewed forth out
of necessity, because there is no evidence.
JK> Either I am right and I am living my life according to the
JK> living word of God, submitting to his authority in my daily life and
JK> thereby gaining a heavenly reward, or I am dead wrong, and following
a
JK> fictitious creed which causes me to treat the needs of others as more
JK> important than my own, return kindness even when I am insulted or
JK> attacked and show love to all mankind.
Christianity has no patent on these social attributes.
JK> IF I AM WRONG, THEN THE WORLD
JK> WILL BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE IF OTHERS WOULD START MAKING THE SAME
JK> 'MISTAKE!'
JK> Love in Christ,
JK> J
Christianity has a long, sorid history. The world would have been much
better off without it.
|blue|
| () | Join the Blue Ribbon Anti-Censorship Campaign!
| /\ | http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: FIJA Lunacy on your BBS
|Date: 20 Mar 96 13:51:51
EID:d49f 20746e60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 315053b7
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 268db275
SM> The consideration of whether or not a Jury can be gotten to convict
SM> under a given law is one that has existed, again, since long before
SM> the United States ever existed. And that consideration is a RIGHTFUL
SM> one.
SM> No rightwing lunacy required, just the Jury System doing its __job__.
SM> Without the right to judge the law as well as the facts, Juries serve
SM> no purpose at all. One may as well make one's defense to a judge who
It's becoming a tool in cases involving racial issues. Seems
it's being used with increasing frequency to let off guilty
people who are minorities, simply to "send a message".
> The FIJA groups around the United States have ties with
> other right-wing extremist groups, often sharing resources
> and members. A BATF report I have on my system talks about
> the Aryan Nations ties with the FIJA extremists in vague
> and ill-defined terms.
SM> Your own admission: "vague and ill-defined".
That's a new one to me, too. I mostly get my FIJA info at
Legalize Pot rallies. Using trial by jury to overturn drug
convictions is the connection there. In theory, you get
enough juries to simply say "not guilty" when someone goes to
trial for even the most obvious evidence of possession, it'll
send a message to the courts about the futility of the WoD.
... I smoke Elvis Presley's toenails when I wanna get high.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Come Together
|Date: 20 Mar 96 00:37:44
EID:282b 207404a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 315053b8
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 314c63a2
DM> Sally Springett said "Come Together" to Robert Jackson, adding:
RJ> Unbelievable. I think we've now figured out who Glenda really
RJ> is. She's Dr. Charles Kinbote, from Nabokov's "Pale Fire".
SS> Ha. You DID like _Pale Fire_. I knew it.
DM> You, too! This is great. Have you read Ada? (another fave of
DM> mine).
I have yet to finish it. It got more and more interesting
for awhile, but then it got really boring. I've lost in-
terest in these monotonous Russo-Irish aristocrats and lay-
abouts. Don't these people do _anything_ useful?
... "Mikron ap tou hlion metastathi." --Diogenes, to Alexander the Great
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Linda Terrell
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 20 Mar 96 12:35:22
EID:5511 20746460
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 315053b9
REPLY: 1:3603/20 4c26f69d
JG> Many women no longer feel that way. They feel it is belittling to
JG> trust their husbands enough to willingly submit to his decision.
LT> My, how you misunderstand! Women want an *equal* say in family
LT> matters and decisions.
Don't I know you from CIVLIB, about a year ago?
... Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: 'american 'athiest''
|Date: 20 Mar 96 05:20:00
EID:af33 20742a80
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 280449b1
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31483423
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
> Buy WHY can't the other members of the organization deal with it, with
or
> without the presence of the O'Hares? Were/are the American Atheists so
> tightly controlled by the top that they can't function at all without
them?
> Every 16 year old with a computer can seem to manage carving out an Internet
> presence -- why do the remaining members need O'Hare & Co. to do it?
There is already quite a bit of atheist material on the Internet. In fact,
if you search around, you're likely to come across an informal group calling
themselves "The Net Atheists." These folks simply put up their information,
perspectives, satire, or whatever suits them, and provide links to others
doing the same.
It's easy to find this stuff. Use a search engine like Webcrawler (http://webcrawler.com/)
or Yahoo (http://search.yahoo.com/) and do the obvious. The Internet never
needed centralized control from AAI to publish, and it still doesn't.
AAI does have however have a wonderful resource in the library they maintain
and some of the literature they publish. It would be great (if it doesn't
violate copyright law) if only a fraction of that could be placed online.
Unfortunately, like most small organizations that depend on membership to
survive, there isn't much incentive to place it online.
> (I'm not trying to pick on them, I am just disturbed to apparently discover
> that the membership gave over such solid control to the founders -- what
> would be said about that if the organization were a religious
> one?)
We would say they had charismatic leaders who got stuff done. I'm no fan
of Jon and Madelyn's extremism, but I do recognize that for many years they
did a great deal of work building, promoting, and maintaining AAI. Nobody
can debate that they were passionate about their cause-- perhaps too passionate.
And nobody can debate that they put forth an amazing amount of effort.
Now that they have fallen off the face of the Earth, we really need people
*like* them again. I hope whoever replaces them puts forth the same amount
of effort and dedication the O'Hair family did.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Christian? God demands you kill me. Write for details! (1:2613/102)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: LIBRARIES
|Date: 19 Mar 96 09:16:11
EID:63b6 20734a00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 ed4025a2
On 16 Mar 96, Roger Hunter wrote:
JB> (?) I don't think an extinction of the soul is anywhere _near_ as
JB> trivial an event as that implies. To me, to make a soul "extinct,"
JB> the Mind of the Universe would have to deliberately construct a
JB> complex quantum-nonlocal vibrational pattern (after-death) that was
JB> the exact opposite in every respect to the pattern of the soul in
JB> question, so that the two could be overlaid and "cancel out" like an
JB> electrical signal cancels with its opposite polarity to "go to ground"
JB> and permanently disappear.
RH> What is there about T-verse to suggest that patterns persist unless
RH> cancelled out?
The set of pionts that constitute the nonlocality is "tight" and
universe-large, meaning it can transmit a near-infinite # of vibrations
between pionts on its boundary and across the interior. It is also, at
its boundary, a "perfect spherical reflector." That visualizes, to me,
like a spherical object capable of maintaining Standing 'waves.'
(It's too hard to describe. Suffice to say that the visualization
implies multiplexability and standing waves.)
JB> exception rather than the rule. Almost _nobody_ is _100_percent_
JB> worthless.
RH> I tend to think that almost _nobody_ is worth preserving. God is
RH> running a breeding program and we are NOT the last word. He wants
RH> Superman and
RH> we are not worth bothering with.
Now, _think_ about that. To get _to_ "Superman," He has to breed it
from what He's got. (He had to breed _us_ from what He had earlier.)
We have to be worth bothering with, even restricted purely to your
analogy, since we're the only raw material available to evolve a
"Superman" _from_.
RH> The Second Law will take care of it.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgh.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... (Music swells...) On a clear disk, you can seek forever...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Come Together [2]
|Date: 19 Mar 96 09:22:55
EID:978b 20734ac0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 847f7ec0
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63ea1637
On 18 Mar 96, J.J. Hitt wrote:
JH> On Mar 16 12:46 96, John Brawley of 1:100/435.1 wrote:
JB> Ok, then it's "he [the race, mankind] got [has, as in is
JB> possessed of] walrus [direct ref. to the Beatles
JB> themselves] gum-boot [walking equipment]. It's in this
JB> case symbolically to mean the Beatles themselves, acting as
JB> the material representatives of whatever the Force was that
JB> used their foursome as a divine communications channel.
JH> You missed your calling.
JH> You should have been a political speech writer.
(*grin*)
Unfortunately, I most probably should have been a marine biologist, like
my Ma thought I'd be.... That, or an Actor. (She liked that, too.)
"Rock Music Theology" is one of my favorite sidelines.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Real Programmers use "Copy Con Filename.exe"
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Re: Who's who...
|Date: 19 Mar 96 04:47:44
EID:0f7e 207325e0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe49b
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Jim Staal <=-
-=> Quoting Lon S. Mabon to Al Schroeder <=-
> Jim. Enough games.
LSM> C,mon, Al. Let's lighten up a bit, eh Al? Just a little joke....
LSM>
LSM> Goodbye!
SA> Hey, Jim...how many minutes will you stay away this time??
Sue,
Since he is a Christian, how good would his word be?
george
... Log Cabin Republicans - They attack themselves in parking lots.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: Posting
|Date: 19 Mar 96 04:55:47
EID:5983 207326e0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe49c
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Rob Burcham <=-
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Yeah. There's a few new names in the echo here lately, but no sign
that
MH> they're going to be any more open than the old names. At least not
yet.
RB> Is 'openness' a one way street? Should theists be open to
RB> the possibility of a natural universe?
MH> Sure. What galls me is that we're derided as "ignorant fundies" for
MH> questioning such things as evolution, yet many atheists hold to
MH> evolution
Michael,
Learn something about evolution before you question it. I question evolution
far more than you ever have, but I bothered to learn what questions to ask.
-- specifically, naturalistic evolution -- with a
MH> fundy-like fervor even though the facts fall far short of
MH> substantiating it, and they don't see that as equally closed-minded.
What fundie like fervor? Unless you cough up a god, nature is all that
is
left.
Take a look at the universe, we are a very small part of it, to assume it
was
designed by god to produce us is rediculous.
george
... Keep sex out of the White House, vote for Bob Dole.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Re: [2/2] Re: lack of any Evi
|Date: 19 Mar 96 05:10:51
EID:6c2f 20732940
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe49d
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> I like to think of my own current relationship in the way you state
above.
JG> That god knew what I would need many years ago and had prepared my fiance
JG> at the time of her birth to grow up in such a way as to meet my need
the
JG> day I met her.
RB> And what of those wives who turn out to be total bitches?
Rob,
Notice how the woman god has prepared for him isn't his wife yet.
Wait till he has to wake up next to his princess for the rest of his life.
Wait till he finds out she actually passes gas, gets sick, wakes up crabby,
has bad breath at times.
Notice how this woman was prepared to meet HIS needs. What about him meeting
HER needs?
This moron is going to jump into marriage without having a clue as to what
marriage is all about.
RB> And what of the husbands who like to slap the 'little lady'
RB> around? Did God prepare those mates also?
Sure! The woman should be subserviant to the man.
Boy is he going to be in for a rude awakening.
I hope she snores.
george
... Keep sex out of the White House, vote for Bob Dole.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Always with me
|Date: 19 Mar 96 05:14:56
EID:9cba 207329c0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe49e
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson to All <=-
BJ> Hello.
BJ> I like to post in this area (Religious Debates), to show the
BJ> young people not to fear (satan) and his deciples.
Brad,
Mark 16:15-18. Belly up to the bar, I'll pour.
Show the young people not to fear your Bible.
Talk is cheap.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Re: Angel Fundy
|Date: 19 Mar 96 05:22:11
EID:6abe 20732ac0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe49f
-=> Quoting Dawn Kleuser to Karl Schneider <=-
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Dawn Kleuser <=-
DK>Aw, c'mon, Karl, yer wreckin' my fun...
KS> Hey...it's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it...
DK> Why? Holy Smoke's obviously got a rep for being a mud-
DK> slingers-ball... (SMIRK) Gimme SOME credit, here.
Dawn,
You earn credit here. It is not given.
I am trying not to
DK> step on too many toes and get a giggle.
Then find a place to play games with children.
Tell ya the truth, I actually
DK> LIKE Ken and Dan and J.j.... They've got spirit (and I don't
DK> necessarily mean HOLY). I'm not a robe-wearin', Bible-totin',
DK> gospel-preachin' ANYTHING. I'm just yer average God-beleiving person
DK> who gets bored sometimes.... that alright with you Mr. Schnieder?
Nope! You don't get to state that you are immune from scrutiny because
you
are only looking for giggles.
DK> (SMILE) Please don't get too upset with me... I gotta get my kicks
DK> somewhere.
So why should we let you get them here?
Okay, I can see it coming: "why am I not reading my Bible
DK> and telling Bible stories to my kids and baking bread fom scratch
DK> while not wearing any shoes?" Because I am not my mother.
If you intend to tell your kids Bible stories, feel free to never be a mother.
She's
DK> wonderful, but I cannot do those things ALL THE TIME and maintain my
DK> sanity.
Who does?
Trust me, this family has it's fair share of prayer and such.
DK> I have even been known to bake Christmas cookies...:-).
I'm an atheist male and bake Christmas cookies. Following a recipe isn't
rocket science.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: flood
|Date: 19 Mar 96 05:33:40
EID:09c1 20732c20
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe4a1
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
-> On 03-11-96 00:08, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Why do you think I created those movies and TV stars?
AS> You created Bridgette Bardot in her prime? Ursula Andress? Julie
AS> Newmar? Terri Hatcher? Hmmmm. Now THERE's a power...
DC> Not bad, huh? What 'til you see what I do next!
Dan,
I've seen Sandra Bullock. But then you already knew that you did "good"
when
you saw the tent I pitched when I saw her.
After all,
DC> I've got the expert on my staff now: George Burns! The
DC> only problem will be that Gracie wants him to go on vacation
DC> for a bit. Strange, though, she mentioned about playing
DC> around in Peoria...
Never been to Peoria god? Not much else to do there.
george
... Enya - Quite simply the most beautiful voice on the planet.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: FLOOD
|Date: 19 Mar 96 05:38:50
EID:09c1 20732cc0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe4a2
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
-> On 03-12-96 09:05, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> The salient point, Al: "Claimed". After all, all of the apostles
DC> ran away before the death. None of them where there to observe
DC> the resurretion. In fact, there was no one there that saw it.
AS> But that's really a non-point, Dan. That's like saying because you
AS> didn't see someone arrive at customs when entering the country, though
DC> Al, just how many people have you seen raised from the dead? Better
DC> yet, how many people have you seen raise themselves from the dead?
DC> The resurrection isn't a mundane claim, but a very extraordinary
DC> claim. It requires more than just ordinary evidence.
Dan,
And this extraordinary claim is still short one dead guy that is currently
alive.
Christians are short one risen saviour.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 19 Mar 96 05:47:39
EID:19a7 20732de0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe4a3
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
-> On 03-12-96 00:03, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Which is why I did that. Though Al may actually be praying for
DC> me on his own time, he doesn't sign off on his messages in the
DC> smarmy manner as Grigor-mortis.
AS> And WON'T sign off that way, either. It's hypocritical, when he says
AS> things that are hateful and/or hurtful about or to people, to always
AS> sign off in that way.
DC> Thank you for confirming that obsevation! Careful, though, consorting
DC> with the "enemy" may cause Mikey to put you in his Twit List.. :)
Dan,
Pounding the floor!
I've found the last few weeks interesting. I've found Pat Buchanan's campaign
doesn't want my money.
I've found Jon Vandenberg's BBS doesn't want my money.
Begin quote:
Ä Area: SYSOP MAIL ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 160 Pvt Rec'd Local Date: 04 Mar 96 04:48:22
From: Jon Vandenberg Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: george rudzinski Mark:
Subj: Access
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
george,
don't bother sending in $12 for access.
i don't want you as a user.
your "free" period will expire sooner than normal.
-!- GoldED 2.42.G0615
! Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
End Quote.
Note how his "free period" is a lie. How Christian of him!
And these folks wonder why I find them so disgusting?
If you aren't in the clique, their word means nothing.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Mark Staal
|Date: 19 Mar 96 05:53:51
EID:c46f 20732ea0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe4a4
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Mark Staal <=-
-> On 03-15-96 04:47, George Rudzinski got back to All
GR> 14:01 From: Mark Staal Read: Yes
GR> Replied: No To: Martin Flack Mark:
MS> think I'll be spending more time in here again....George is
MS> starting to get on my nerves.......
MF> I solved that problem...hehe
MS> ..So I heard, He's quite a character....
DC>
DC> If you can't stand the heat, lump, do what Hardy does and use
DC> a twit list when the truth hurts you. Flack's "solution" is
DC> blantant censorship.
Dan,
It gets much better. Here is Jon Vandenberg's solution. He has his own
BBS
and moderates an echo that I post on, Religion228. I still have access
to
Religion228. But when I called his BBS this is what I got.
Begin quote:
Ä Area: SYSOP MAIL ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 160 Pvt Rec'd Local Date: 04 Mar 96 04:48:22
From: Jon Vandenberg Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: george rudzinski Mark:
Subj: Access
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
george,
don't bother sending in $12 for access.
i don't want you as a user.
your "free" period will expire sooner than normal.
-!- GoldED 2.42.G0615
! Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
End Quote.
Now I never even posted a message on his BBS. Just my name got me thrown
off.
george
... Lying is easy for Christians, they have Sunday.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: satan runs
|Date: 19 Mar 96 05:55:56
EID:d290 20732ee0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe4a5
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson to All <=-
BJ> Hello
BJ> I would like to point out that the messages written to me have
BJ> dropped off, a lot!!
Brad,
Morons are boring to post to.
This tells me that when satans deciples
BJ> are face with the truth, they run scared!!
Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour.
Your reaction will tell me and everyone else if you are a true believer.
george
... Enya - Quite simply the most beautiful voice on the planet.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: FAQ Worthy!
|Date: 19 Mar 96 06:13:54
EID:746f 207331a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe4a0
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Jim Germiquet <=-
RB> The thing that defines character is not between your thighs,
RB> it's between your ears.
I submit that Rob has provided a quote more than worthy of the FAQ.
Too bad I have to post this testament to character in Texas when I live
in
Michigan because of the actions of some people in Michigan who lack any
character or conscience.
george
... Enya - Quite simply the most beautiful voice on the planet.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: Mark staal
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:30:04
EID:ce53 207423c0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe498
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> MS> I also hear that he can only send mail thru one bbs, now.Too bad
GR> MS> he had to be such a jerk.....SUCKS TO BE HIM>>>>>HA HA HA HA HA!
GR>End quote:
GR>
GR>Well here we get a nice encapsulation of the Christian mindset. Shut
GR>the opposition up.
GR>
GR>When the going gets tough! Eliminate the opposition!
GR>
GR>As Christianity has always done through it's long sordid history. As
GR>their god has as evidenced in the OT.
KDM> Shut the fuck up, George.
Kevin,
I never took orders very well in the military, I don't take orders from
fundies and I'm not about to take them from you.
Pffft!! Go scare a fundie.
If you'd said some of the same things to me
KDM> you've said to Mark, I'd twit you too. I'm tempted to anyway as it
KDM> is.
Like I care? What is hateful about facing death in a responsible manner?
Do
you want your kids to keep you alive in agony? Or are you too young and
to realize that you will face death one day? Are you too young where you
did
not have to make choices for whether your parents should get another 2 months
in bed suffering or to make the tough choice and say, "Enough is enough!"
I've walked in Staal's shoes, I am qualified to speak out about the decisions
that he made. And you notice he is keeping his trap shut about what was
actually done. You know why? Because they finally said, "Enough is Enough!"
And he knows it. And he knows it should have been done before all the
suffering that was caused in an obviously hopeless situation.
KDM> Or would you like to explain why you can spew hatred and cruelty while
KDM> Staal can't?
Staal can spew whatever he wants. He isn't being cut off from access to
FidoNet, I am. What part of that don't you understand?
And where have I ever advocated that a person not be allowed to speak?
Better check your facts before you open your mouth. You know nothing of
what
is going on at my local level.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: your father
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:41:07
EID:cb15 20742520
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe499
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Mark Staal <=-
KDM> MARK STAAL spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MS> KDM> Who, George? If he raises his head again on this, I'll
MS> KDM> decapitate him.
Kevin,
Yeah right! My father had a saying about that that involved ingesting food
and bodily functions.
Next time you have a problem with what I say, have the stones to take
me on. Don't try to back door your way to make friends with fundies and
show
them how tollerant you are.
And don't make threats about decapitating someone that has no qualms about
destroying a person's faith. Making you look foolish would not bother me
at
all.
And obviously you are well aware of that since you didn't bother to decapitate
me.
MS> He made alot of people angry with his ranting on about this
MS> matter...particularly The many hosts of the BBS he post
MS> from... Or should I say ...Used to post from....
KDM> Aye. I won't take that sort of thing from your brother,
And here is where you screw up by getting the facts wrong. I've posted
from
one system for years. In those years I recieved two warnings from the system
operator, one concerning a complaint from Hot Seat, the other concerning
my
language on this echo. So I bit my tongue and followed the rules. During
those years I was never booted from a local echo by the sysop.
One of those local echoes was Religion 228. I never recieved so much as
a
warning from the moderator of that echo. Yet when I tried to access his
system when my sysop of choice Glen Davis closed shop, here is the message
I
recieved before I even posted a message.
Begin quote.
Ä Area: SYSOP MAIL ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 160 Pvt Rec'd Local Date: 04 Mar 96 04:48:22
From: Jon Vandenberg Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: george rudzinski Mark:
Subj: Access
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
george,
don't bother sending in $12 for access.
i don't want you as a user.
your "free" period will expire sooner than normal.
-!- GoldED 2.42.G0615
! Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
End quote.
Now this is cleary his right, but it goes directly against Policy 4, if
you
wish I will quote the pertinent sections.
He couldn't exclude me from the echo he moderates because I had not violated
any of his echo rules. But at the first chance he got he axed me from FidoNet
access for no reason other than my name. Care to see what Policy 4 has
to say
about that?
And I still have access to his Religion 228 echo because he can find no
reason
to boot me.
So when you are told I posted from many systems you are being lied to.
and I'll be
KDM> damned if I take it from "one of my own."
You will take whatever I dish out because I am not one of your own. I bother
to get my facts straight before I shoot my mouth off.
And you aren't going to be able to get your facts straight because you quite
simply don't have access to the information that I do.
I am not "one of your own", I take free speech seriously. Even speech I
disagree with. I spent nine years in the military ready to fight and die
for
that principle.
I'm not about to back away from that position now because you don't like
what
I say. Who the hell are you to decide what I can and can not say?
Feel free to disagree with what I say all you wish, don't ever try to shut
me
up. America was not founded on that principle.
george
... Enya - Quite simply the most beautiful voice on the planet.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:43:09
EID:4cb7 20742560
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 314fe49a
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Preston Simpson <=-
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Oh yes please tell me of the amazon armies of egyptian or roman women
JG> soldiers. Tell me how women of those times were feared by the men.
PS> Believe what you like. How much longer are you going to live at
PS> variance to reality?
JB>
JB> I guess he hasn't read much about the warrior queens of history, has
JB> he? Boadicea comes to mind quite handily. Hey, even Elinor of Aquitane
JB> led a couple of battles.
Judy,
During WWII there were two groups of Russian women that the Germans were
terrified of. One was a group of female Russian pilots. They flew single
engine biplane bombers at night. They were called the "Night Witches" by
the
the Germans. When near their targets they would cut their engines and glide
in. Without warning the Germans found themselves with bombs falling all
around.
The other was a regiment of Russian female infantry. They were fearless
and
totally terrifying. In one attack where they were outnumbered three to
one,
they routed the German forces. As reported by an American military observer,
after the battle they went back over the battlefield and mutilated all of
the
Germans that lay on the field of battle. The American observer reported
that
the spectacle made him sick.
I guess Jim has never seen the dark side of a woman protecting her young.
Something I'm smart enough not to ever intentionaly get in the way of.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 20 Mar 96 08:32:24
EID:87fe 20744400
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 15015961
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from --Todd Lappin--> (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Mar 20 '96, 08:18
99]) by wired.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA22556; Tue, 19 Mar 1996
15:22:50 -0800 (PST)
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin-->)
Accountability is the cornerstone of democracy. Thus, in the spirit of
naming names, I bring you the full text of "The Rogues Gallery" from the
April issue of Wired.
In this episode, we bear witness to the "tortured explanations and flat-out
evasions" offered by Congressional legislators who brought us the
Communications Decency Act.
Hats go off to Brock Meeks, the author of this piece, whom the Washington
Post recently descibed as "a sheriff on the electronic frontier, exposing
the frauds and snake oil salesmen in scoop after scoop."
Spread the word!
--Todd Lappin--> Section Editor WIRED Magazine
THE ROGUES GALLERY
Meet the legislators who helped make government censorship a reality on
the
Internet.
By Brock Meeks
The history of the Communications Decency Act - legislation that became
law
as part of the sweeping telecommunications reform bill - is a twisted tale.
Championed by Senator James Exon with ample support from the Christian
Coalition, the Communications Decency Act criminalizes constitutionally
protected speech on the Net. Americans who prove unwilling to abandon their
=46irst Amendment rights may be subject to US$250,000 fines and two-year
prison terms.
The United States Supreme Court says that the state has a "compelling
interest" in protecting minors from inappropriate or potentially harmful
media content. The Court also says that the government must always use the
"least restrictive means" short of broad, content-based regulation to
achieve this compelling interest. The new legislation clearly fails this
critical First Amendment test.
Wired asked several proponents of the act to clarify their decision to
forsake the First Amendment and Supreme Court precedents protecting our
civil liberties. Here are the tortured explanations and flat-out evasions
offered by legislators - some of whom previously distinguished themselves
as advocates of free speech.
SENATOR JAMES EXON (D-Nebraska), sponsor of the Communications Decency Act.
"There is enough of the self-serving philosophy of the 'hands-off elite.'
They seem to rationalize that the framers of the Constitution planned and
plotted at great length to make certain that above all else, the
profiteering pornographer, the pervert, and the pedophile must be free to
practice their pursuits in the presence of children on a taxpayer created
and subsidized computer network. This is nonsense."
SENATOR DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D-California) voted for the Communications
Decency Act during a Senate vote on 14 June 1995.
Feinstein's office flat out refused to return repeated calls. Later, when
I
met face-to-face with her staff, they continued to stonewall. Finally, with
deadline pressure looming and after a Wired editor strong-armed her press
aide, the senator issued this statement:
"While I strongly believe in our First Amendment right of free speech, I
also believe that we need to reconcile First Amendment freedoms with other
fundamental rights and concerns - in this case our need as adults to be
able to protect children from obscene and indecent material. I recognize
that there currently are software filtering programs that have the
potential to screen out certain pornographic 'discussion groups' to prevent
our children from being able to access them. I hope that even better
software can be developed to address this problem more successfully in the
future."
REPRESENTATIVE PATRICIA SCHROEDER (D-Colorado) voted to adopt Senator
Exon's "indecency" language provision during a 6 December 1995, meeting
of
the House Conference Committee on Telecommunications Reform.
"I voted for the 'no indecency for kids' provision because, in my view,
all
doubts about the competing provisions had to be resolved in favor of
children.
I'd be the first to say that the options before us weren't perfect, and
the
process was abysmal. The House had no hearings on this issue, no committee
deliberation, and no floor debate. A better process would have given us
better options. My requests for a more open process were ignored - not too
surprising from a Republican majority, which rushed through too much
legislation by a similarly slipshod process."
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN CONYERS (D-Michigan) voted to adopt Senator Exon's
"indecency" language provision during a 6 December 1995, meeting of the
House Conference Committee on Telecommunications Reform.
Previously an ardent supporter of the First Amendment, Conyers's position
on Internet censorship made us wonder why he voted to adopt the "indecency"
language. Rodney Walker, Conyers's press secretary, evaded me for a week
when I tried to reach the representative by phone. "This is a very hard
question for us, which is why I haven't been able to answer it," Walker
confessed. "Let me get the congressman's guidance on this." He never called
back.
Later, I caught Walker as he was ducking into an elevator: "Have a seat
in
the office, I'll get back to you in a minute," he pleaded. After spending
45 minutes cooling my heels in Conyers's waiting area, a call came in. It
was Walker, calling from a committee meeting room, with a statement from
his boss. Conyers had decided to punt:
"When I voted for the indecency language, I was looking for a vehicle to
balance freedom of speech with the state's compelling interest in
protecting children from indecent and obscene material."
SENATOR BARBARA BOXER (D-California) voted for the Communications Decency
Act during a Senate vote on 14 June 1995.
Boxer's staff couldn't get her to cough up a statement explaining her
support for the Communications Decency Act. Boxer voted against the
flag-burning amendment, but when it came to discussing Internet censorship,
her press secretary explained, "I've never really heard her talk about her
position on that. The only thing I've ever really heard her say is that
she
wanted to send a signal to technology companies to encourage them to come
up with better solutions for protecting kids from indecent material."
Brock N. Meeks (brock@wired.com) is Wired's Washington correspondent.
Copyright =A9 1996 Wired Ventures Ltd.
All right reserved. Non-commercial redistribution of this message is permitted.
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+=
-
This transmission was brought to you by....
THE CDA INFORMATION NETWORK
The CDA Information Network is a moderated distribution list providing
up-to-the-minute bulletins and background on efforts to overturn the
Communications Decency Act. To subscribe, send email to
with "subscribe cda-bulletin" in the message body.
WARNING: This is not a test! WARNING: This is not a drill!
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+=
-
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: THE TRUE NATURE OF CHRIST
|Date: 17 Mar 96 02:01:00
EID:1cc1 20711020
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDB256
RS> After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that most if not
RS> all Christians are self-centered son of a bitches. It would seem to
me
RS> that they do not worship their god for the sake and `glory' of the
RS> action, but rather they're attempting to save their own asses from
RS> eternal hellfire and such.
AS> There isn't such a motive as gratitude for the beautiful world we
AS> are given, the glories of existence, the wonder of the universe
AS> revealed to us in science, for the chance to love and to strive
AS> and to appreciate beauty?
RS> Notice the qualifiers I used. It was obviously my opinion and I did
not state
RS> that _all_ christians were like this, I state `most if not all' were
like this.
But you are implying that the vast majority--"most if not all"--are like
that.
It is that I have found not to be true in the majority of cases.
AS> I am grateful to God for allowing me to
AS> walk in the Rockies when I was thirteen, for the beautiful and
AS> ever-baffling woman I married, for the delight my kids give me,
AS> for the many works of man-made beauty I am exposed to which
AS> wouldn't exist unless God created the men to begin with...
RS> Now I am wondering what makes you think that you must thank some higher
being
RS> for all of this. Indeed, I love the outdoors as well and one could
even go as
RS> far as calling it my `church' [use this term in a very loose sense].
However,
RS> when I step onto the Rogue River trail next week and make my five day
journey
RS> downstream I don't feel as though I have to thank anyone for that.
I chose to
RS> go there, I will drive there, I will pay for the gas to get me there,
and I
RS> will pay for the food that I bring to sustain myself on.
Excellent. But you see those are two seperate questions. You asserted
that Christians do not worship God for His glory, but instead to save
ourselves from hellfire. I gave you a very plausible reason, if one
grants there IS a Creator, to so worship Him. And indeed, in the vast
majority of cases I think it IS the reason. Why I believe there is a
Creator has been enumerated many times (the anthropic principle, altruism
beyond genetic or societal necessity, etc.) and I can take it up with you
if you wish. But the worshippers of God already BELIEVE there is one.
That's a given. Otherwise they wouldn't think there was anybody there to
SAVE them from Hellfire...or Hellfire itself, either. You are introducing
a side issue.
RS> Again, pay attention to the qualifiers.
Um. If I said, "most if not all of blacks are lazy and unintelligent."
I would be leaped on as a bigot, and saying "it was my opinion" would not
help any. If I said "most if not all Jews are sly and money-grasping" I
would be making a bigoted statement also. I apologize to those who are
black and Jewish for the above statements that I do NOT agree with. But
the piddling qualifications do not negate the fact that, IN YOUR OPINION,
most Christians go to church to save themselves from hellfire. I think
that is an opinion that is not bourne out by the facts, just as I feel the
two above are not borne out by the facts.
___
Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick McFarlane
|Sub: CAMPBELL
|Date: 17 Mar 96 03:03:00
EID:b7cf 20711860
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDB71A
RM> Now that my feed seems a little less flakey, and it seems likely that
RM> this message will actually get there, let me repeat how happy I am to
RM> see you back here, and to hear that no one was hurt in your fire.
RM> I've never had that type of experience myself, but some close friends
RM> have, so I know how disheartening it can be to lose cherished
RM> possessions.
It was not fun. But in another way it was kind of heartening, to see the
outpouring of love and help that shows up in times like that.
RM> But at least you were spared the worst possibility. Last night there
RM> was a fire here that destroyed a home. A mother and daughter escaped,
RM> but another daughter and a son did not. I can't imagine the pain...
That's the worst thing. I have a vivid imagination. I can at least BEGIN
to imagine the pain. I was at work. I could have easily lost all who were
dearest to me.
RM> Fred and Jim _agreed_ on something? Put that one in your list of
RM> miracles!
Come to think of it, I'm not sure if Jim ever commented on Asmodiddle or
not.
AS> (Injured innocence) I think we BOTH (my wife and I) can take credit
AS> for it.
RM> You fainted too?
Well,no.
AS> story. Male vanity crops up in the weirdest places...
RM> Mostly in stories recounted by males, though.
Too true. But it was scary when it happened.
... Everything is a conspiracy.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick McFarlane
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 16 Mar 96 07:05:00
EID:f421 207038a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDBD14
RM> Want to calculate the odds? (I'm a mathematician, remember? I love
RM> this stuff ).
RM> Remembering that we're talking about 1850, in Persia, the guns
RM> involved were black powder muzzle loaders. But they were probably
RM> rifled (not smooth bore), meaning relatively accurate. Most riflemen
RM> would be able to hit an object the size of a man at the distance
RM> involved here (in a courtyard, certainly under 100 metres). Let's say
RM> that they were such poor shots that only 50% would hit the target
RM> (I think that's outrageously conservative). And let's go farther
RM> and say that 2/3 of them were secret sympathizers, who would
RM> deliberately miss (also outrageously conservative. The Babis were
RM> only a small, albeit noisy, minority in that country).
RM> So, of the 750, only 250 were actually aiming at Him, and each of
RM> had a .5 chance of missing. What are the odds they'd all miss? 5.5
RM> x10^76.
RM> If you repeated this experiment every second for the entire life of
RM> the universe, you'd need over a trillion trillion trillion trillion
RM> universes to get even odds of seeing that outcome just once.
RM> This isn't just highly improbable. This is impossible. We can
RM> safely guarentee that it will never happen in the life of this
RM> universe. But the Bab did it on His first try .
RM> Even if we said 90% of them were sympathizers (now we're into the
RM> collusion theory ), and the rest were such bad shots that 2/3
RM> of them would miss the odds are still 1 in 300 trillion against.
I LOVE it! Excellently reasoned. You have, if nothing else, given strong
reasons for thinking life is not entirely at random, and that some
incidents DO show a force outside the known acting in the affairs of men.
RM> It's a better possibility than just good luck. Circumstances also
RM> make it highly unlikely (as you noted) in this case, as in the case
RM> of the resurrection, since you'd need every one of the 750 in the
RM> conspiaracy, and they'd all have to keep their mouths shut about it
RM> afterwards, but if I was searching for a natural explanation, that
RM> would be the best one available.
And is ITSELF so improbable, given the context of the times, as to make
the Bab's miracle as unlikely in terms of human behavior as it would in
mere statistics.
RM> I don't know. No offense meant, but I wonder if maybe you are showing
RM> some bias here. People _have_ been known to come back to life in a
RM> coffin (actually, they never were dead, but everyone around was sure
RM> they were--sure enough to be busy to burying them). Are you aware of
RM> any other case of an entire firing squad missing? Which one is less
RM> likely?
If it were just any burial, probably...but if you combined the piercing
of the side, the sealing of the tomb with a large stone, the guards,
etc....plus the fact none of the disciples went, "let us get you to a
physician" from his gaunt and haggard appearance (which is what you would
expect from a mere coming to in the coffin...)I think it's at least even
with the Bab's miracle. But admittedly, I have a bias here, and I'd be
a
fool to deny it.
RM> Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to play "my miracle is better
RM> than your miracle". Miracles are unimportant to me because they
RM> appear to be a very weak basis for belief, and I'm trying to
RM> demonstrate to you why. If there is another miracle outisde Christian
RM> history that is well documented, and as unlikely as the resurrection,
RM> then should you really be making the resurrection the core of your
RM> beliefs?
Let's put it this way. The Bab's miracle, impressive as it is, is no way
central to the Bab's TEACHING. But in Christianity, the Incarnation,
Resurreciton, and Ascension is CENTRAL to the teachings. The idea that
Christ died for our sins, and arose in "newness of life"---that He took
on our sins and so earned forgiveness for all of us, and defeated death
by embracing it and going BEYOND it...is central both in Jesus' personal
teachings before and in what happened afterwards.
C.S. Lewis, MIRACLES.
"It is this which, to my mind, puts the Christian miracles in a
different class from most other miracles.I do not think it is the duty of
a Christian apologist (as many sceptics suppose) to disprove all stories
of the miraculous which fall outside the Christian records, nor of a
Christian man to disblieve them. I am in no way committed to the
assertion that God has never worked miracles through and for Pagans or
never premitted created supernatural beings to do so. If, as Tacitus,
Suetonius, and Dion Cassius relate, Vespasian performed two cures, and if
modern doctors tell me that they could not have been performed without
miracle, I have no objection. But I claim the Christian miracles have a
much greater intrinsic probability in virtue of their organic conneciton
with one another and with the whole structure of the religion they
exhibit. If it can be shown that one particular Roman emperor--and, let
us admit, a fairly good emperor as emperors go---once was empowered to do
a miracle, we must of course put up with the fact. But it would remain a
quite isolated and anomalous fact. Nothing comes of it, nothing leads up
to it, it establishes no body of doctrine, explains nothing, is connected
with nothing. And this, after all, is an unusually favoriable instance of
a non-Christian miracle." I can grant the possibility (although I must
admit I would have to look at it a little closer) of Vespasian's miracle,
and that God might work through him to make a cure, even though he was a
pagan, and was considered a god. Nevertheless, he seemed to be a fairly
good man, and I could see God taking pity on those he was "curing", and
working through him.
I think the Bab's miracle DOES indicate God's favor, of God's approval
of the Bab over and above the authorities of that day. But whether it
validates all of the Bab's claims is I think a seperate question.
RM> THe Bab claimed, in essence, to be the return of Christ. Would God
RM> assist someone who was claiming that station falsely?
If his teachings were the type that God would approve of, and superior to
the teachings of those around him? If it would save the lives of people
or enrich people who could not embrace Christ directly? I could see the
possibility...much more so than in Vespacian's case. You see, it is THAT
claim that I have more problems with, and I freely admit it is probably
my bias. But that teachings seems to go contrary to some of the teachings
of the NT concerning how self-evident Jesus' return will be. Of course,
we can say that Christ was misinterpreted and misquoted. But if we do
that, how do we guard against editing Jesus to suit our own bias? It's
certainly a possibility, Rick. But I cannot, at the moment, embrace it,
although I will certainly concede that the miracle may be a clear-cut
incident of God intervening in the ways of men.
RM> That's one of the things I like about you Al. You think. A lot.
A belief unexamined is not a belief worth having.
RM> I guess this is one we're going to disagree on, but allow me to
RM> try to make my case anyway.
RM> THere is a vast difference between man and God. How could the words
RM> of a mere man, even the brightest, most noble man, possible
RM> masquerade as the Word of God? From a totally theoretical point of
RM> view, without ever having read any Holy Books, we should expect
RM> that it will be easy to differentiate between the Divine and the
RM> mundane.
I'm not so sure. If God is forced to resort to the language of men, how
can the message be so much greater? If I were forced to use the language
of the bees (the one that tells them where a flower is and all, as
discovered in the last twenty years) could I use it to explain the theory
of relativity? No. The concepts aren't there. And if I used such a
language with the bees, I would only sound like another bee.
RM> I think this is what Christ was getting at when He said that the way
to
RM> separate false prophets from real ones (in that famous "wolves in sheeps
RM> clothing" passage in Matthew) was that "ye shall know them by their
RM> friuts". He also warned that false prophets will work great wonders,
so I
RM> doubt by "fruits" He meant miracles. I personally think that what He
was
RM> referring to was their actions, their teachings, their message, the
effect
RM> they have on their followers. I think that's the best test, because
I
RM> don't think Divinity can be faked. And I think it's the test Christ
RM> Himself proposed, and passed spectacularly.
But He Himself taught that this(the Crucifixion, the Resurrection) was
why He was here, why He had come into this world.
RM> I don't care how many miracles Charlie Manson may have performed (not
that
RM> he did, just hypothesizing here), I can tell by his "fruits" that he
isn't
RM> from God, and therefore, any alleged miracle that he might come up with
RM> must be a trick.
RM> Ultimately, it's the message, not the stage show that really counts.
PARTIAL agreement, in that the way both the teachings and the miracles
are put to are of prime importance. The only thing He withered while He
was on earth was a fig tree, and the miracles ascribed to Him are either
those of healing or helping others (such as the loaves and fishes, the
calming of the storm) or neutral (walking on water, the Transfiguration,
etc.) But there have been many wise teachers over the years, Rick. I
would expect, when God manifests Himself, to do something which WE could
not do ourselves...something that is beyond our power, otherwise He
would leave it to our devices and our free will to uncover. But the
Fall, even though freely chosen, was something God was not willing to
leave us in forever, and at least gave us a chance to escape. Otherwise,
how would you tell a wise teacher from the God-sent? Mahatma Gandhi was
a great teacher, as was Martin Luther King, and I think they BOTH voiced
truths that God approves of in most cases. That does not mean I think
they are avatars or incarnations of God. Suppose there is a miracle that
is done, NOT for show, not to convince, but because it is needed? That
is how I see the Resurrection...if He healed individuals, it is through
this that He cured all mankind...and again, judging by Acts, the letters
of Paul, the letter of James, the letters of John, that is how the early
Christians, those with Him, regarded it also.
... Rational information in arguments not permitted here.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick McFarlane
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 16 Mar 96 07:02:00
EID:f421 20703840
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDC05C
RM> Water into wine, for instance, really does smack of parlour tricks.
RM> What's the point?
But that is what God does anyway...through the agency of the biological
mechanisms he has devised, grapes, vines, etc....but for once He dispensed
with the middleman, showing that He is the reality of Bacchus, Ceres,
and Pan hanker after....that He is master of Nature, although NOT part of
it. That Nature is His creation no less than we.
RM> Another one that has always puzzled me is connected with the loaves
and
RM> fishes. If miracles are supposed to be convincing (if the motivation
for
RM> performing them was to convince those present of the truth of His
RM> revelation) then what happened to the 5000 who were fed by the 5 loaves
RM> and 2 fishes? They participated in a public miracle. Weren't
RM> they convinced? How come Christ had only a dozen or so followers when
He
RM> was on the cross?
Actually, if you read it a little more carefully, you will see he had at
least hundreds of followers...the disciples were just the "inner circle".
The five thousand probably thought the disciples had the fish hidden in
their togas or something. They didn't stop to see how many were grabbing
things out of the baskets, they were too busy eating...and again, it shows
His mastery of Nature, how He dispensed with the usual reproductive cycle
for both fish and grains and for a few minutes we saw His naked hand,w
without the glove of Nature.
RM> I could say the same thing about the Bab's execution. Over 10,000 people
RM> saw what happened there, but the vast majority of them had already made
up
RM> their minds about the Bab, and very few changed their opinions.
And again, they probably thought it faked, and ignored what they knew of
human nature.
RM> Obviously, miracles are not convincing. Now, if I accept that God causes
RM> miracles, then I have to conclude that either a) our omnipotent God
is
RM> unsuccessfully trying to convince us, or b) He had some other purpose
in
RM> mind. I'd favour b) . What purpose could that be?
Exactly. Just wonder-working is nothing, unless there seems to be a higher
purpose to it. Otherwise why would God alter the laws He has set up? Both
the Natural and the Supernatural must come from God, and work together for
His will. So we look for something that has greater meaning than just the
moment.
RM>It seems to me that almost every miracle related in the Bible carries
some
RM> symbolic meaning, if one just looks at them the same way one would look
at
RM> parables. This goes for the resurrection as much as the raising of
RM> Lazarus.
Except that the Christian believes that the Resurrection means more than
just the rising of Jesus, but the eventual rising of all who accept Him.
AS> Although the
AS> Bab's miracle is a wonderful thing, if it hadn't happened, it would
AS> not invalidate either the Bab's nor Baha'ullah's message. If the
AS> Resurrection did not happen (in my view...I know there are some
AS> liberal theologians who might disagree) than Chistianity itself is
AS> irrelevant.
RM> I guess I must fall in with those liberal theologians. I have a
RM> feeling that our differences on this point are probably due to a
RM> difference of opinion as to the purpose of Christ's mission. So, let
me
RM> ask you, what do you see His purpose as?
To save us from the consequences of the Fall (of our own free will causing
a state where we are estranged from God). That the Resurrected Christ was
the "first fruits" of the New Creation...a new state, that incorporates
the
bodily but transcends it, where spirit and matter are not like a horse and
a rider but more working together, like a centaur. To give us a taste of
the Eternal Life He has.
RM> The most significant miracle in Baha'i history is the one we discussed
RM> before, the martyrdom of the Bab...
AS> And it is an excellent example. Indeed, I have used a similar
AS> argument concerning the anthropic principle...if a dozen men aimed at
AS> a person and they ALL misfired, you would suspect something going on.
RM> I remember reading some notes of yours containing that idea, and almost
RM> falling out of my chair .
And the thought wasn't original with me, either. I was using a
distinguished philosopher's comparison.
RM> In any case, I myself think that a miracle is only "proof" to someone
RM> who personally witnessed it, and it probably shouldn't be even to
RM> them. I mean, people can be pretty tricky.
AS> Like David Copperfield? but OTOH, we are told, repeatedly, that
AS> extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Then when we
AS> mention miracles like the Resurrection, we are told flatly, "they
AS> didn't happen." Stuck in a logical Catch-22.
RM> Unfortunately, you can't prove that it did. (I know, they claim that
RM> they are not asking for proof, but that's just a claim, and I've never
RM> seen any evidence to back it up ). OTOH, I think I could prove,
in a
RM> court of law, that the miracle at the Bab's execution really did happen.
You probably could. But then, some might ask what the greater significance
of them missing was? But then, there are many miracles Jesus did, such as
walking on water, that have no immediate spiritual significance.
RM> They never got back to Him on that one. Apparently, they couldn't
RM> agree on a single miracle that they were certain could not be faked,
RM> and they didn't want to take a chance. Which, really, is prefectly
RM> rational on their part. I mean, if David Copperfield can make a 747
RM> disappear...
AS> True. Hector once had an answer of what it would take to convince him
AS> that God existed, and he said, "bring my dead dog back". All he wanted
AS> was a dead pet returned, which he would not be able to prove to any
AS> outside person was not a different dog. THe disciples at least got a
AS> dead LEADER and TEACHER returned.
RM> Let's leave sleeping dogs lie (pun intended ). You start mentioning
RM> Hector's name in this thread, and he's likely to start sending me notes
RM> again. I prefer things the way that they are .
Hector who? He was answering posts hammer and tongs like he always did
even when we had the Fidonet troubles and half the country (like yourself)
couldn't see them. Haven't seen a post from him SINCE the fire, but perhaps
he might have felt it was a good time to take a well-deserved break. Or
maybe he got too frustrated, as I was beginning to, that only half the
country could read my posts. I certainly am not conceited enough to think
I
scared him off, any more than I think there was anything suspicious about
the way Curry left after I answered his little challenge. Fidonet troubles
happen, unfortuantely, and when I thought I would be off-line for a while,
he may have felt that those who could still see him were not enough of an
audience to make it worth his while.
RM> Actually, when I asked that question, I was expecting more responses
in
RM> the lines of what Fred Rice sent me - first he proposed a miracle, then
he
RM> backed away from it, saying that even the miracle that he himself had
RM> proposed wasn't good enough, because he could think of ways that it
could
RM> be faked. (Later he backed away from his backing away, and then he
denied
RM> doing that, and the conversation got somewhat confused...).
RM> Instead, what I got was a list of miracles that the various atheist
RM> participants here would find good enough to convince them of God's
RM> existence. If I take them at their word, I have to conclude that they
RM> would find miracles convincing. Yet when I asked Hector what he would
do
RM> if David Copperfield and I showed up at his door with a dog identical
to
RM> his dead puppy, that behaved in exactly the same manner, would he really
RM> believe, the best he could come back with was "You haven't produced
the
RM> dog yet".
Well, every dog has his day.
!
... Computing's patron Saint - St Francis of Ansi C++
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick McFarlane
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Mar 96 05:02:00
EID:2b2f 20712840
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDC4E4
AS> Yes, but I think I need to lead with the strongest prohibition we
AS> have, that I think God can defy.
RM> In the immortal words of Bill Cosby, "I brought you into this world,
and I
RM> can take you out!"
Ain't it the truth.
RM> And God is not a man.
AS> Indeed not. (Although He may have been one for a while, if my beliefs
AS> are right...a descent into humanness.)
RM> It would still be an accurate statement. In that case, He was a Man
.
I hope though, that there is a part of Him that is still Man...that
reconciles Man and God.
T
... Chill out! I'm just here for your hamster. --Death.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 16 Mar 96 07:08:00
EID:f0d9 20703900
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDCB06
AS> Well, I have certainly seen Michael admit he was wrong on
AS> some things, but that's between you and him. For that matter
AS> (and I am NOT thinking of you here, Marilyn, although I must
AS> admit I have a few individuals on this very echo in mind) in
AS> THAT sense of the word I know quite a few "fundies" on this
AS> echo who don't believe in any dieties whatsoever.
MB> Indeed.
There are several, indeed, who would make rather good fundamenalists of
the fire and brimstone type, and exhibit the same sort of personality,
only condemning Christians with much the same holy purity as Cotton
Mather condemning the heathen. (Again, not thinking of you....Sean comes
to mind, for one.)
AS> It's of course a fine line to draw. On one side, if one says
AS> they believe too strongly and without compromise, they are
AS> "fundies", and if they bend too much, they are being "Salad
AS> bar Christians", "modern apostates", or are "sucking up" to
AS> the nonbelievers.
MB> What I described above has nothing to do with one having the
MB> strength of their own convictions; it has to do with the total
MB> inability to admit that the OTHER PERSON is correct FROM THEIR
MB> POINT OF VIEW! In other words, to be able to admit, like my
MB> "fundy friend," that the other guy's philosophical point of
MB> view is as internally consistent as their own. I cannot ever
MB> recall the time that Mikey had the cajones to say to Lynda,
MB> for example, "while I don't accept your point of view (or
MB> Spong's), I must admit that it is an interesting departure
MB> from the point of view that I do accept, and that it just
MB> might possibly be true, even though I don't think so."
MB> So, to the likes of Mikey, it is not only important that
MB> you be a believer, but that you also be the RIGHT KIND of
MB> believer is equally important. There is a thought-police
MB> element in it that denies people to right to be "wrong."
Hmmm. I don't see it as inflammatory. I do see it, as anything, as
concilliotory..."it just might possibly be true", even though it was
against the way he read the Scriptures. But again, that's between you and
him. It sounds to me he is admitting the possibility. Admittedly, he is
not
saying the person is merely correct "from their point of view" because he
feels it reflects something real (you must never forget that, Marilyn)
as real as the Big Bang or the theory of evolution, not merely a matter
of
opinion. But then, I don't know the context of the quote.
MB> Now, I suppose you could accuse me of having never said that to a
MB> believer, too, but you would be wrong. I accepted the believers'
MB> point of view for a number of years. I am an ex-fundy. I now
MB> categorically reject all points of view that require a belief in
MB> magic in order to hang together intellectually. We are bound by
MB> natural law. Period. There ain't no magic; there is only people
MB> too immature to admit that they live in a reality that is totally
MB> indifferent to them.
An interesting assertion.
Too bad Godel's theorem says any mathematical system (which the natural
laws adhere to) MUST be incomplete. That every mathematical system carries
in it certain propositions which are unanswerable. That it is impossible,
even in theory, to construct a complete mathematical system. So if the
natural laws are all one system, it MUST allow something "outside" it, (A
simple case of an unanswerable statement is: I always tell the truth: I
just
told a lie.)
Or...and here's another tack...if one's mind is determined by physical
laws and processes, then, by definition, there is no reason to trust the
reason the mind produces. As a mere byproduct of natural processes, there
is no reason to think that reason can make intuitive leaps outside the
crude stimuli it receives to true cognition. If our reason tells us that
there is nothing outside natural law, can we trust anything our reason
tells us, since there is nothing independent about it, but rather it reacts
along the lines set down by natural law? The very act of knowing and having
trust in the reason you use is a sort of faith, and perhaps one that is
unjustified. IF your view is right, and our reason is nothing but the
product of natural lawm, then it is merely a Skinnerian box with no real
reason...to trust our reason.
... For the non-discriminating, non-judgemental, psychotic, all around Nut
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 16 Mar 96 07:05:00
EID:1806 207038a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDD01A
MB> Resurrections definitely fall into the category of events that
MB> it would be intellectually dishonest for one to take at face
AS> value,
AS> Why?
MB> I could care less what C.S. Lewis says. If it gets him through
MB> the night, fine with me. But that sort of intellectual dishonesty
MB> would make sleep impossible for me. That's just the way it is.
Too bad. Bishop Spong, whom you seem to respect, has read C.S. Lewis avidly
and delighted in his insights. But it still doesn't answer the question.
Why is believing in a Resurrection intellectually dishonest? I have never
said DISBELIEVING in one is intellectually dishonest. If there is a
Designer of the laws of nature, why can He not set them aside at will.
... "What's reality anyway but a collective hunch?" -- Jane Wagner, U. S.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 17 Mar 96 05:03:00
EID:1806 20712860
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDD59C
AS> MB> accuracy by believers. The main as difference
AS> MB> between a believer and a nonbeliever, in this case, is
AS> MB> the willingness to give such absolute trust of absolute
AS> MB> accuracy to somebody who is telling a story that has so
AS> MB> many elements that are, in the experience of the
AS> MB> listener, totally impossible. So
AS> The Hume-idity of the room just rose. As in David Hume.
AS> Are you so SURE it's impossible? Miracles are by their very
AS> nature extraneous to the usual run of Nature. You have
AS> settled the question without considering it.
MB> WITHOUT CONSIDERING IT! Hummmmph!
MB> Replicate it and I'll retract my statement, and not a minute
MB> sooner!
Ahhh, then you disbelieve in say, inflation in cosmology, since that can't
be replicated, or the Big Bang, which can't be replicated (you might answer
you can hear the microwave emission of the Big Bang, and so you can, just
as I can see how the actions of the apostles' faith in a Resurrected Christ
affecting history much more tangibly.) Some things are only needed to
happen once, Marilyn, that you nevertheless believe in.
... Be different DON'T speak your mind!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 16 Mar 96 07:09:00
EID:8bb1 20703920
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDDC5E
AS> Was there enough time for it to be in RESPONSE to his
AS> comments, by some prankster?
MB> If anything, you have it backwards. It was in that morning's paper
MB> that the crop circles had been found.
Okay. Aliens who can see into the future...
AS> But of course, WE know the real reason. Those circles are
AS> religious symbols, as Christians make crosses. That's where
AS> the aliens held their prayer revivals!
MB> Nope. Aliens make them to amuse themselves.
Of course. Amusement is part of their religion.
AS> And their "pope" is going to rule soon whether human beings
AS> have souls to be saved or not. If they decide we do, LOOK
AS> OUT!!! The missionaries will come and show us the wonder and
AS> glory of C'Don, the Creator, whether we want to or not.
MB> At least C'Don adheres to the standards he gives to us.
Yeah, but the fact that he's a cosmic predator, hunting down the souls of
those he created, might have something to do with it...
AS> ... Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical. Virgins are. ___
MB> Indeed!
Well, nearly extinct, anyway.
... Beware! 36D -- the number of the breast!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 16 Mar 96 07:09:00
EID:6a7f 20703920
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDE0DC
AS> But that doesn't explain the corn-king myth...the dying and
AS> RESURRECTED god. It would justify a faith like the Norse,
AS> where eventually Odin,
MB> So different peoples concocted different gods to answer different
MB> questions. Why in the WORLD would you think that all those gods
MB> were invented to answer the same questions, all around the world?
Because of the recurring similarities between many mythologies, of
differing climes and cultures, the "Hero of a Thousand Faces" that Campbell
talks about, which has in one of its phases a Descent into the Underworld
and a Return. Sound familiar? You would think different questions would
spark startlingly different answers.
... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. Or so I'm told.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Mar 96 06:00:00
EID:f65a 20713000
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDE5FA
AS> Hmmm??? I was asking you if there were any points where your pacifism
AS> ends...like stopping Hitler's Germany, or a policeman stopping a
AS> sniper from killing others.
MB> Nope. The policeman can do as he pleases. I don't control
MB> the behavior or convictions of anybody but myself. He must
MB> live by his conscience; I must live by mine.
Yet you pay for his salary. You support the elected officials who empower
him, and the judges who justify his actions.
AS> There are certainly Christian pacifists (just as there are
AS> who feel themselves to be Christain soldiers--whether Jesus
AS> would approve of them or not as a debatable point). I'd still
AS> be interested in your answer.
MB> You've got it. I don't believe one human being should kill
MB> another. Period. And, I don't see the collective "we" as
MB> differing in its standards from the individual we. If it is
MB> wrong for an individual to kill another individual, it is
MB> also wrong for a collective of individuals to kill another
MB> individual or collective of individuals. Numbers make no
MB> difference. I don't share the Christian double standard
MB> in this respect and find their totally unacceptable. A
MB> thing is either right, or it's wrong; numbers have nothing
MB> to do with it. How can it be wrong for me, as an individual,
MB> to kill another human being, yet right for me to kill that
MB> same human being, so long as I can amass a large enough
MB> gang? That's patently absurd!
And does a group not have a right of self-defense against those who are
basically amoral predators on the weak? Again, I am not for capitol
punishment, but I am for the right for a policeman to use deadly force to
stop a greater evil.
MB> This is one of the things I find most distasteful about the Christian
MB> point of view. You people so readily equate adult human beings with
MB> flies on the wall, amoeba, virii, chimps, and the like, yet rail
AS> MB>against the notion that we are RISEN primates. Another very
AS> fundamental
MB> inconsistency in the who paradigm. And, one I find VERY insulting.
MB> I am much more than an amoeba, and if your god can't see that, he
MB> needs radial kerototomy very badly.
AS> Well, Marilyn, if a Christian had said what you say above, he would
AS> be acccused of pride and hubris, of thinking he is the "crown of
AS> creation".
MB> But Christians don't really see themselves as the crown of
MB> creation, except when it is convenient to their argument.
Well, at least that is refreshing. Usually we are accused of making Man
more important than he should be in the scheme of things.
MB> Ask the right questions and you soon find out that they
MB> regard themselves as totally depraved and unable to even
MB> function without the aid of this asshole that has no ethics
MB> of his own.
I think Man, left to his own devices, is capable of quite horrendous depths
of depravity. Dauchau. Auchwitz. Hiroshima. The Bosnian rape camps. Vlad
Tepes' stake-outs. And yes, I think a belief in God CAN (not necessarily
will, just can) make one, if not sinless...can make one sin LESS. See the
difference?
AS> Now...Marilyn...I am as much larger than a germ as the Earth
AS> is larger than I. But I am speaking of one who I think is
AS> omnipresent, so encompsses the entire circuit of the Earth,
AS> and the solar system, the Milky WAy, the entire observable
AS> universe. Even if He went no further than what little we
AS> know, an electron to you would be an overstatement of the
AS> relative "size" of you to God.
MB> So? That releases him from the rules that he absolutely
MB> INSISTS we abide by, or he'll torture us for eternity?
You swat flies for annoying you. You, in essence, leave flies alone unless
they bother you. You set the standards. You in turn do not expect to be
killed for annoying ANYONE. You do not abide by the "ethics" you have laid
down for flies.
MB> We don't insist amoebae follow a bunch of rules of behavior;
We sure insist that GERMS and VIRII follow rules of behavior...and if they
don't (i.e., if they infect us) we eliminate them.
MB> we take it for granted they'll behave like amoebae. And, we
MB> didn't make them to be what they are; your god did, then he
MB> zaps us for being exactly what he made us to be.
We breed dogs. We breed pit bulls. But if they become a danger to the
community, we chain them or kill them.
MB> So far as I'm concerned, the only way out of the hole you've
MB> dug your god into is if you either admit that Nature and your
MB> god are two different things, or you admit that your god only
MB> has jurisdiction over thoughts, but not actions. Anything
MB> other than that, so far as I can see, will only dig the
MB> hole deeper and deeper.
On the contrary, I have yet to hear why you can swat mosquitoes.
Be that as it may...
OF COURSE NATURE AND GOD ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!!!!! I'm not a
pantheist, who thinks that God only indwells in Nature and has no other
existence. Nature is a CREATION, and in some ways as astray as Man from
the
original plan. It is not in Her, but something far beyond Her, that all
lines meet and all contrasts are explained. She is not the Absolute; she
is one of the creatures, with her good points and bad points and her own
unmistakable flavor running through it all. Christians believe that Nature
is in a sense corrupted (again, see the Fall) and things are not as
originally intended. For a time. "There shall come a new Heaven and a new
Earth" says Revelation. To treat Nature as God, or everyting, is to lose
the whole pith and pleasure of her. She is herself, and I offer her neither
worship nor contempt. If she is cured, as Revelation tells us, she is not
be be tamed or sterlized. We will recognize our old friend, enemy,
fellow-playmate and foster-mother, so perfected to be more, not less,
herself. (Yes, I am quoting someone. But you said you had no interest in
what he said. Your loss, so I can only restate.)
MB> I had yet to meet a Christian who had a god I could respect,
MB> and I've met many of them. Sooner or later, it always boils
MB> down to then having a god who is a complete asshole with a
MB> sugar coating on it. Scrape away a bit of simple carbohydrate,
MB> and you have nothing left but pure asshole.
And I instead see a God who offers us Eternity for a word. And who doesn't
even force THAT on us, unless we ask. And you find that so objectionable?
How odd.
... This is a logic tagline. <--- This is a lie.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 16 Mar 96 08:03:00
EID:f65a 20704060
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDEA32
AS> In much the same way, God is a master. He MUST allow death to
AS> allow life to prosper, at least under the present paradigm of
AS> nature. There may even be times, given His viewpoint outside
AS> time, where some need to die that more may live later on. As
AS> a policeman shoots a sniper to avoid him from shooting more
AS> innocents. We have neither the wisdom or the experience to
AS> dispense with such prohibitions as we have.
MB> Who the hell is talking about ALLOWING death? I'm talking about
MB> getting his shorts in a knot about who and what people worship and
MB> committing genocide over it, rather than learning to control his
MB> temper. And, speaking of which, some dude in Scotland offed a mere
MB> handful of 6-year-olds the other day and got a clucking of tongues
MB> going around the world; Jehovah offed untold children in Sodom and
MB> Gomorrah and gets excuses from his followers. You mean, you don't
MB> see a double standard here? I sure as hell do. Jehovah's an
MB> asshole, and his followers are a bunch of blind fools for not
MB> seeing it.
Because the first follows the second. EVERY death...your father's, my
father's, my grandmother's, my seven-year-old nephew's...happens because
God allows it. The "dude in Scotland" blew children away and had not one
idea of their potentialities or final destiny. God does, being outside
Time. All of us also owe our existence to God...not only for creating the
world, but sustaining it. I think we are all the consequence of a
conscious willing of God, a continuous one, as you or I would sustain a
daydream. It has been often argued here (although not by you, Marilyn)
that the fact that a fetus is dependent on the mother for life, than the
mother has a right to dispose of it if she wants. Well, I think each of
us
are dependent every day on God for life...and someday He will take that
away from us, and send us to another room to learn something new.
AS> MB> As for my pacifism, I don't insist that mesquitoes adhere
AS> MB> to my standards. I know they are mesquitoes and have
AS> MB> their own way of life. And, I certainly don't lay down
AS> MB> standards for them then in the next breath flaunt those
AS> MB> standards in their face whilst punishing them for
AS> MB> eternity for not adhering.
AS> (Amused smile.) No, you just swat them.
MB> Of COURSE I do. the mosquito is capable of killing me with the
MB> malaria it carries. How am I capable of killing god? He's
I submit you have rarely seen a mosquito who carries malaria in temperate
climiates. That excuse won't wash. Most of them have done nothing harmful
to you, save the chance of passing minor infection...and you can't shoot
someone because they might give you the flu.
MB> infinite, after all. And, he has infinitely more tools to deal
MB> with miscreants because he's infinite. Yet, he uses infinite
MB> torture as a means to deal with finite infractions of much less
MB> severity, such as telling a little white lie. You are still
MB> comparing apples and Mack trucks, Al. He's a heavy-handed tyrant.
He also grants infinite joy to deal with finite acts of goodness and mercy.
His mercy is as great or greater than his wrath. And if you can't harm God
directly, you CAN harm those He loves. The pain and suffering and death
that Adolf Hitler inflicted on six million Jews must have pained Him
terribly, the same way any cruelty to YOUR son pains YOU.
AS> No, you don't insist that mesquitoes adhere to your standards
AS> for your ethical conduct. You DO insist that they adhere to
AS> YOUR standards for THEIR conduct.
MB> Only when dealing directly with me. I don't try to kill all
MB> mosquitoes, as your god did the Midianites. And the Midianites
MB> weren't even dealing with him; they had a god of their own; they
MB> were IGNORING him! Big fucking deal!
They may have been sacrificing children to Molech, too.
AS> In other words, if too many buzz you, you will spray them, or
AS> use a bug-killer---you will KILL them, something you would
AS> not do to something you considered an equal, no matter how
AS> annoying. You have a different standard for their behavior
AS> than you do for yours.
MB> We don't consider mosquitoes to have ethical standards. What an
MB> absurd notion! Yet, your god apparently considers a creature you
MB> claim is the comparative equal of a mosquite to have standards
MB> that impose the death penalty for simply being themselves
MB> (fallibly human). Your analogy is hardly parallel. In fact, it
MB> stinks.
On the contrary, it fits quite well. It is a mosquito's nature to attack
and suck blood from us, and so we kill them. It is OUR standards for THEM.
It is the Christian view that human nature IS somewhat corrupted...that
left to its own devices, it is capable of great cruelty. Which pains God.
But unlike the mosquito, the story of the Fall says such nature was OUR
choice.
If the analogy fails, it's to the mosquitoes' advantage...not ours.
MB> And, I'm not god; I do what I have to do to survive; your god is
MB> supposedly omni-*, so survival is hardly at issue. Yet, he commits
MB> genocide merely for what people are thinking (the Midianites).
MB> He's an asshole, Al. Pure and simple. Also, mosquitoes don't
MB> worship me as being the epitome of ethicality; and I don't insist
MB> they do. Another way in which the two situations are hardly
MB> parallel. Your god is NOT perfect, Al, he's a petty tyrant with a
NB> total inability to control his temper when ignored or spurned.
MB> Find yourself a decent god that at least has a facade of
MB> respectability.
Funny. He ignored the Egyptian gods, the Babylonian gods, and the
Greco-Roman gods and the people who worshipped them simply for worshipping
the wrong gods. And there are some animals that DO take our standards, as
best as they can understand them, as ours....dogs, for instance.
AS> I don't think God considers us mosquitoes. But I don't think
AS> He considers us equals, either. Beloved animals, perhaps, the
AS> way a game keeper keeps wild animals in the preserve. (And
AS> you will notice sometimes game wardens will thin the herds to
AS> allow greater health for the whole.
MB> They don't have infinite choices. You don't have nearly a high
MB> enough opinion of yourself and the human race. That is another
MB> major objection I have with the Christian point of view; it tends
MB> to want to reduce human beings to mere nothings at a moment's
MB> notice in order to justify the unjustifiable acts of its god(s).
Do you not KNOW how SMALL we are? How we have barely explored one grain
of
sand on a beach that stretches for miles? That is not religious faith, that
is scientific acumen and proportion.
AS> He will kill a few...even might allow others to hunt...to
AS> maintain the health of the herd as a whole. And some of the
AS> herd might regard the game warden as a monster, even though
AS> he loves them dearly, makes sure that poachers don't decimate
AS> the population.
MB> He has fewer choices than an omni-* creature would have; he does
MB> what he has to do. And, he is apparently forced to operate within
MB> the bounds of the rules that an infinite god made, even though
MB> with a bit of imagination the infinite god could have made the
MB> algorithm quite different. We are nothing but a tortured plaything
MB> to your god, Al, and he's got the mind of Machiavelli. I could
MB> easily hate your god; he's an asshole who deserves nothing but
MB> contempt from me and all other sentient creatures. Go find a god
MB> that has a modicum of respect for himself, let alone for the rest
MB> of us.
The God who allows us salvation for a word? Is that the God you're talking
about? The God who allows eternity for a VERY finite act..a simple
declaration of love? Odd way to view things. He holds out His hand to us,
and gets spit in it.
AS> But he doesn't expect them to adhere to his ethical
AS> standards...he doesn't expect predators to stop killing, or
AS> birds to act courageously, or a fieldmouse to get an
AS> education and learn. But if the predators make too many
AS> inroads into the birds, he will thin the population of the
AS> predators, for the good of all, even ultimately for the good
AS> of the predators.
MB> And, he has more respect for them than to try to force them to
MB> adhere to a higher standard than he is willing to adhere to
MB> himself. He expects them to be what they are, and nothing else.
But we train dogs and chimps and many another animal to be more than they
would be naturally.
MB> HE doesn't thin the population; the lack of food will thin it. You
MB> don't really understand evolution at all; you merely pay it lip
MB> service.
Don't be silly, Marilyn. The want of food is caused by conditions that
ultimately, God is at the bottom of, since, if He exists, He is the
ultimate cause of EVERYTHING. Don't get distracted by side issues. (BTW,
park rangers have indeed been sometimes sent out to thin herds by shooting
them.) I understand evolution quite well, but we are talking about ultimate
causations, not mere processes.
AS> MB> I would think even you could see that qualitative
AS> MB> difference.
AS> "Even" me?? I argue that ethical standards that God
AS> imposes on Man need not be the same one He imposes on
AS> Himself.
MB> Nope. He lack any decency at all. Our standards would be an
MB> improvement, obviously.
His standards have always been the standard of the father of the Prodigal
Son...willing to take us back the minute we return. And does not force us
to come back, come what may. How "indecent". Your rancor towards Him
is
amusing, not distressing me, Marilyn.
AS> You argue that we don't force our ethical standards on
AS> mosquitoes. You're very right. I agree completely. Just like
AS> God does not put the ethical standards FOR HIMSELF on us, but
AS> the ones that are meant for HUMANITY on us.
MB> You're absolutely right; he has no standards for himself at all,
MB> and can exact no punishment. He is completely amoral, yet we mere
MB> humans are given a sentence of eternal torment for having
MB> standards and sometimes failing in our struggle to live up to
MB> them. Maybe the key to this thing is to adopt HIS standards: none
MB> at all.
Everyone fails in the struggle for the standards, Marilyn. He will forgive
any error; you only have to ask.
AS> As I have said before...He did not say, "I shall not kill".
AS> He said "thou shall not kill". For God not being able to
AS> dispense death would cause far more misery in the long run,
AS> unless creation is made anew.
MB> Exactly! He should have gotten it right the first time. And,
MB> we're not talking about natural death, here; we're talking
MB> about eternal torment for momentary lapses, and genocide for
MB> making a mistake about which god to worship.
But eternal torment is not for anybody who simply asks for forgiveness;
all it takes is a word. And that genocide might have stopped hundreds of
years of sacrificing children to a fiery furnace.
... A single fact can spoil a good argument.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: STUDYING
|Date: 17 Mar 96 07:04:00
EID:7898 20713880
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDEF5A
AS> Yes...to me Mcdowell was like reading a paper outline. Quite
AS> straightforeward and no padding at all. The bible study d took a LOT
a of
AS> work and time. I have not read more evidence.
I would not bother for a while. There are better books to read at first.
You can always read it later. It defends the Flood and other parts of the
OT in a way I find unappealing and in some cases, mistaken.
AS> best defense of the Resurrection is WHO MOVED THE STONE? by...Montgomery,
AS> I believe (I had a recent fire). Lucid, well written, quite logical,
one
AS> might almost say remorselessly logical, in showing how absurd alternative
AS> explanations of the Resurrection are. Z Ībme and Michael have used
his
AS> arguments many times on this echo, and it is one of the books we have
in
AS> common.
AS> I will have to check out this book. It sounds like a good one for me
to
AS> incorporate into my quiet time. I am using Corrie Ten Boom right now.
She
AS> is great for personaly issues but I need some meat too.
AS I said, I haven't read much of Corrie Ten Boom, so perhaps that should
go on MYU reading list.
AS> I find C.S. Lewis instructive. I'm rereading his MIRACLES, and I like
his
AS> MERE CHRISTIANITY. And G.K. Chesterton's ORTHODOXY is also quite good
and
AS> quite well written.
AS> I am reading Mere Christianity right now. I have never heard of Chesterton.
AS> Ona another one to try.
He did, among other things, the Father Brown mystery stories, like the
short story, "The Invisible MAn"--where the mailman did it, not the H.G.
Wells one where a person literally turned invisible.
AS> excuse the errors...my strikeout key has gone and died on me....
Didn't notice. We're used to typos around here. We almost thrive on 'em.
!
... Mixed emotions is when your kid gets an "A" in sex class.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 16 Mar 96 08:06:00
EID:a226 207040c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 01CDF36A
AS> Thanks for the offer. BTW, I think I saw another message from you on
my
AS> old BBS that evidently came the day my new BBS didn't receive any
AS> messages, where you were talking about my statement that an mass
AS> hallucination is every bit as unbeilivable as a Resurrection, and you
went
KS> Um. I didn't save it, but I'm pretty sure your word was 'impossible',
KS> rather than 'unbelievable'...
KS> It was a shameless attempt to score points on what was basically a
KS> typo...
In this particular case the words are interchangeable. Both mass
hallucinations and Resurrections are pretty unbelievable because they are
impossible under the laws of nature as we understand.
AS> ..."uh, Al" or words to that effect. But it wasn't a typo. The idea
is, if
AS> the only explanation that makes sense to you entails what would be a
AS> miracle, than why not opt for the one which the witnesses themselves
AS> thought was the more likely?
KS> Oh....I should have read more.
KS> I guess I can only say that I've heard and investigated claims of
KS> ...shall we say 'paranormal' in lieu of 'miraculous'?...events and
KS> have never found any to be believable in the light of serious
KS> inquiry.
True. But most of them are tiny effects, and draw on no greater power than
their own. The religious view (at least the Christian view) is that we have
to draw on a Thing or Person greater than ourselves. Further, that we are
drawing on the one who actually created the reality and the rules and laws
of nature under which we live.
KS> Not to say I think miracles are impossible...I just never 'seen one'
KS> and don't know anyone who has.
But you will at least concede the possibility. That's fine. That at least
makes you more open-minded than many here.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Wotan Ymirsson
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 16 Mar 96 03:02:00
EID:3717 20701840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04673EC4
WY> Moreover, your Jehovah is entitled to NOTHING while he still doesn't
exist. And
WY> neither you nor any other believer has produced Jehovah for examination
by the
WY> faithless. So it remains established that Jehovah doesn't exist.
No, Wotan, it remains an OPEN QUESTION whether Jehovah does or does not
exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, the
various coincidences enumerated in "the anthropic principle" in physics,
altruism above and beyond societal or genetic necessity, and the lack of
a
plausible explanation of why the apostles underwent torture, flogging,
imprisonment, in some cases death, for asserting they personally beheld
a
man rising again. Were they (A) lying---and so, dying for what they KNEW
was a lie, or being flogged, whatever... Real *physical* things leave physical evidence.
WY> Nothing else exists outside of imagination, Michael.
Oh? Interesting assertion. Plato might disagree--ideal forms, "shadows on
the wall of a cave", all that. Can you show evidence why there cannot be
spiritual things?
WY> The classic example of human emotion is perfect here: human emotions
do not, in
WY> fact exist in and of themselves. Only *physical* things do that.
I submit that one example does not prove the case.
> Why would a spirit
> leave physical evidence? (I'm momentarily accepting your assertion that
> there is none, although I don't really think that's true.)
> MG> If it's not there, I have to conclude that the god is nto
> MG> there.
> Then you obviously are locked into your own dogma, that "real" things
> leave physical evidence -- ergo, you believe WITHOUT EVIDENCE that
> physical things are the only "real" things.
WY> First, we can reliably state that all physical things ARE real. Evidences
of
WY> physical things' existence are mundane, and only require mundane evidence
--
WY> which is there to be had.
WY> Your claimed "Creator" is an EXTRAORDINARY claim without even the slightest
WY> genuine evidence behind it, as I show you below:
> I would say that the existence of the universe is physical evidence of
> a Creator.
WY> All the indirect evidence in the Universe is worthless without at least
one
WY> piece of __direct__ evidence, Mike.
But they can be used to frame a hypothesis. For decades the Big Bang was
a
hypothesis without direct evidence to distinguish it from the steady state
theory, until they discovered the microwave background radiation and
quasars. Pluto was detected by indirect evidence...the way the outer
planets' orbits were distorted by an unseen gravitational presence. (As
it
is, finding Pluto is a lucky fluke, because it is not big enough to cause
the distortion. There is something else out there beyond Pluto, big enough
to cause the distortion. That is certain, even though I have no direct
evidence of it. Or inflationary cosmology. Though there is no direct
evidence for it, and even though there are some flaws in Guth's original
idea, it answers so many questions with one theory it seems some variation
of that must be true.
WY> And that means producing your alleged God for direct observation by
WY> nonbelievers and the faithless. NOW, not in primitive times.
You're not related to Sean Mccullough by any chance are you?
Or are you Sean trying to get past Mike's twit filter?
... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Wotan Ymirsson
|Sub: ELEPHANT VELVET
|Date: 16 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:721a 20701920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04674D56
> Yes, but my point is, while several different views of God may be true,
> but incomplete, that's no reason to assume that all are. Some views of
> God may simply be wrong, period.
WY> Actually, unless someone PRODUCES A GOD FOR DIRECT EXAMINATION, they
are ALL
WY> wrong. Including yours.
Are you saying because I cannot prove whether the universe is open or
closed...although there are good reasons to feel it is not
oscillating...then NEITHER option is right? They are not wrong, their
assertion is unproven. There is a difference.
WY> My apologies for shouting.
Shout all you want to, as long as you make sense.
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Wotan Ymirsson
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 16 Mar 96 03:02:00
EID:7168 20701840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04675530
> Arrogance? You're entirely clueless.
> 1. It is God, singular.
WY> Fuck you. Until you cough your God up, to be examined on OUR terms,
it remains
WY> established FACT that ALL GODS ARE EQUALLY AND PURELY IMAGINARY.
You persist in this error. It does not remain an established fact. The most
you can say is Mike's assertions are UNestablished. PLEASE learn the
difference.
> I don't have patience anymore for people who
> refer to "god(s)," (and sometimes without putting the s in
> parentheses.) I'm simply not going to waste my time with people who
> can't show a modicum of respect for a belief system.
WY> Such as you have shown in this very paragraph for the millions of Americans
WY> (and others worldwide) who are just as convinced of their multiple Gods
as you
WY> are of your supposed "one" God (actually a minimum of four: Father,
Son, Holy
WY> Ghost, and Satan) ??
WY> Not only are you arrogant, but an hypocrite into the bargain.
> If you want to
> discuss it or argue about it, fine. If you want to mock it and its
> practitioners, leave me out of it.
WY> The Christian religion DESERVES mockery. In fact, it IS a mockery, inherently
WY> so. We reserve the RIGHT to mock it -- DIRECTLY IN YOUR FACE -- and
you have NO
WY> right to either block it or resist it.
But we have every right to answer it. And your faith is...? Atheist,
agnostic, Wiccan, Asaturu , Buddhist, Moslem, Hindu...?
WY> And that is the way it WILL be EVERYWHERE.
If you will. It has been mocked before. But I notice the churches are as
full as ever. At least he has the courage to post under his own name.
... Got kleptomania? Take something for it.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Wotan Ymirsson
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 16 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:f6a8 20701920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04675BE8
> MB> Midianties because they worship the wrong god and allowing people
> MB> to die of old age and disease. If you don't, I can do nothing but
> MB> question your sense of ethics.
[cuts]
> This is just another one of those Hobson's choices the atheists hold
> to. I realize some of them genuinely struggle with these issues, but
> think many more of them simply use them as excuses.
> If God does nothing about evil, they whine "How could a loving God let
> these people sacrifice children?" If God does do something about it,
> they whine "How could a loving God wipe out those people just for
> worshiping the 'wrong' god?"
WY> How about a REAL solution, such as making it UNIVERSALLY CLEAR which
was the
WY> "right" god and the "right" way to worship??
WY> How about ANY solution that left the peoples in question alive AFTER
it was
WY> applied??
WY> You see, Michael, the Bible cannot even be trusted regarding the alleged
WY> worshippers of the alleged "Molech". Direct archaeological evidence
for the
WY> existence of "Molech" is spotty and irreliable at best -- and certainly
isn't
WY> of the required quality to corroborate the Biblical tales.
WY> It STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN of being a piece of propaganda, to justify
a bloody
WY> and atrocious campaign of GENOCIDE waged by and in the name of YOUR
god so that
WY> YOUR GOD's worshippers could take land that wasn't rightly theirs to
live in.
Hmmm.
Wotan.
May I refer you to CARTHAGE, printed in 1990, by archeologists David Soren,
Ben Khader, and Aiche Ben. Also to Donald Harden's THE PHOENICIANS, 1962.
The evidence of the tophits (not only the Salaambo tophit near Carthage,
but others throughout the near east...Soren's book has an entire chapter
devoted to it.). Notice that they are stuffed with the dead bodies of
children. The only possible other explanation is that they are specialized
child graves, but that is contradicted by the inscriptions themselves, left
by the families. And of course, there is the UNANIMOUS opinion of the
ancient world. Diodorus, a Greek writer of the Roman era, wrote of the
practice in Pheonician derived cultures, like Carthage, and how some of
their children were offered up as sacrifice during a siege. It is not only
the assertion of the Hebrews but of the Greeks and the Romans also.
You are, to put it kindly, either ignorant or intolerant, and I'm not
sure which.
> AS> It also states, a little prior to that order, that Midianite women
> AS> "seduced" Iraelite men and brought them to the worship of Baal.
> But see Al, Marilyn insists that everyone should be free to worship
> whatever god they please, and the real God should just shut up and let
> it go on.
WY> There is no such thing as "the real God", Mikey. ALL Gods are the same
thing:
WY> IMAGINARY constructs in the believers' overactive imaginations.
WY> This statement is well established as FACT. And it will remain established
as
WY> FACT until someone actually produces hir God for examination by the
faithless.
You obviously have a mistaken idea of what a "fact" is. You are saying the
burden of proof is on Michael...all well and good. That by NO MEANS
establishes the NEGATIVE of his statement as a FACT. A fact is established
by evidence. Unless you would like to prove a negative...?
... Penny for your thoughts.. Hey! You owe me some change!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 18 Mar 96 00:02:00
EID:e650 20720040
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467626E
JG> and the laws and legal institutions. We are not talking about modern
JG> day North America . We are talking of a savage land and a savage
JG> people.
JB>
JB> Bullshit. Women always have and always will be able to adapt to
JB> whatever they need to...with or without men.
JG> Well it would be pretty hard for women to continue to exist beyond
JG> the first generation without men. :-)
JG> And of course women will be able to adapt. For example they can use
their
JG> femininity to seduce men to fall prey to their treachery as Delilah
did
JG> to Samson , to cut off his hair.
JG> In todays society, women use the politician to get extra powers over
JG> men. A woman demands to rights to abort a child, the father has no
JG> right to stop her. BUT if the woman decides to have the child, suddenly
JG> the child is the responsibility of the man and child support is demanded.
JG> What kind of BS is that. Rights go hand in hand with Responsibilities.
JG> If a woman demands TOTAL rights as to the life and death of that child,
JG> then she should also take TOTAL responsibility for it if she has it.
JG> CASE CLOSED !
JG> But no, women whine and cry , or the protest and march. They suck up
to
JG> politicians to demand superiority over the man and then hypocritically
JG> talk about "equality". Another example in this vein, is the government
JG> has a huge child support agency that chases after men with hundreds
of
JG> lawyers the woman does not have to pay for. Meanwhile a man has to find
JG> a lawyer, pay the expenses of a lawyer, to fight this huge agency. And
JG> if he can't afford a lawyer, he gets raped by the system. And now this
JG> is not covered by "legal aid". "equality ? NOT!" Where is the huge
JG> government agency to take the mans side of the issue ?
JG> We pay taxes , but we do not get representation ! Don't talk to me of
JG> equality.
JG> And then of course they take away the ability for men to defend themselves
JG> which used to be physical. SO now in order to stop the mental abuse
of
JG> a womans bitching and nagging and put downs, men can no longer give
her
JG> a backhand across the mouth. So he has to take the mental abuse until
it
Jim.
I would no more strike my wife than fly to the moon, no matter how much
we
argue.
I think it is the mark of a COWARD and a BULLY to even suggest it.
"A backhand across the mouth". Do you REALLY think that way. Or is your
tongue in your cheek, as it was the OTHER time?
It doesn't matter. Someone who uses such an idea, even in jest, is a
little sick, and I feel sorry for the woman in your life.
I warned you before to be careful what you say in this echo. This will
haunt you for the rest of your (hopefully short) stay here. They will
never let you forget it.
Judith is one of the more intelligent, interesting posters here. No, she
is not of your faith. But be aware you have offended, say, Lynda, who IS
Christian, I'm sure. Nor is the lack of Judith being of your religious
persuasion justifies suggesting tha a backhand across the mouth might be
the best thing for a woman and that otherwise men will go out and start
shooting others.
You have a poor opinion of your own sex, methinks, if you think males are
so fragile. I'm not. I've been married sixteen years this May and never
lifted my hand to my wife, no matter how angry. Nor did my father ever lift
a hand to my mother, or allow me or my brother to hurt my sister.
The ONLY chance you have of staying any time on this echo is to make a
complete, unreserved, apology to both Judith and ALL the women of this
echo. Do it now. Do it without delay. For you have offended practically
EVERYONE here, male and female.
JG> drives him crazy enough to get a gun and blow away the next 12 or 15
JG> women he sees on the street before putting the gun to his own head to
JG> get away from the monstrous injustice of a society that only cares now
JG> about the rights of the women while not providing support and education
JG> in dealing with these issues to the men on an equal basis that it is
JG> supplied to the women of this society .
JG> Now before you get your back up, I am not saying this is "right" I agree
JG> it is a "sick" thing to do and that you cannot "justify" it.
I'VE got my back up, Jim. You don't offer a third option. Either strike
your wife or build it up until you become a mass murderer.
JG> But women don't get charged for the abuse they dish out to men. If
JG> a man were even to complain about it, he would be laughed at and ridiculed.
JG> And of course if it ever does get to court , everyone assumes it is
the
JG> man who is at fault and not the poor little lady.
JB> It might behoove you to have us simpering around with a 'poor,
JB> pitiful, weak, little me' attitude, but don't count on it ever
JB> happening. I may not have as much upper body strength as you have, but
JB> I've got a brain that will show me a way to do the same things without
JB> needing that strength.
JG> What a joke. that is EXACTLY what you do to get your way. Especially
JG> in courts or with cops, or with politicians! How do you think you
JG> got all this power in the first place except with your snivelling
JG> "poor me" crap.
JG> And how true is the expression. Power corrupts, and
JG> absolute power corrupts absolutely. Women are becoming more and more
JG> corrupt. It is no coincidence that as soon as women got "equal" rights
JG> as men the first things they started to do was "get drunk" "smoke"
JG> "go to male strip joints" ? The very things they complained about men
JG> doing.
JB> And yes, I KNOW what I can do. From survival in strange cities in
JB> foreign countries to rural living with NO utilities.
JG> Oh I am quite sure you do. Ever look down to make sure you haven't
JG> grown a penis lately ?
Why? Are you missing one?
JB> Gad, but you are a puke.
JG> Nice talk for a "lady". Oh I forgot you aren't a "lady" you are man.
JG> And as such demand the right to be as ignorant and abusive as some men
JG> choose to be.
Jim, are you forgetting how you are commanded to cherish your wife as
yourself, and how male and female are one in Christ? Have you forgotten
how
we are to treat those who heap abuse on us, to answer them but to do so
with malice towards none? Do you see that above? I don't.
I see only an underlying hatred for women that frightens and repels me.
Apologize. Don't justify, don't try to get around. Apologize, quickly,
sincerely, and to all.
... Maybe this world is another planet's Hell.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: WHO CARES?
|Date: 18 Mar 96 00:02:00
EID:00a3 20720040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04676BA6
AS> No, in a way it's liberating. NOBODY can measure up to Jesus'
AS> standards, and it is clearly told to us if we say we are without sin,
DC> As above: Goals only mean something if you do have a way of
DC> not only obtaining them, but surpassing them.
AS> The goal is to surpass your old standard, getting closer and closer
AS> to the end...but of course, the end is infinitely long away...
True, but that's why an attainable goal and the possibilty of
surpasing it makes more sense.
It usually works best if you set short term goals. (In fact, compared to
eternity, ANY goal will be short term.) "Give no thought to the morrow."
as
He said, "and let tomorrow take care of itself."
I'm not worried about being perfect. I'm just worried about not trying to
mess up TOO badly.
. Cthulhu and Hastur and Nyarlathotep, Oh my!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 16 Mar 96 04:04:00
EID:700b 20702080
MSGID: 1:116/19 046773C6
AS> The Who, Emerson Lake and Palmer, the Moody Blues...etched in
AS> nostalgia with me forever.
DC> The first group was good, scratch the second, and give the
DC> last one a lot of credit!
AS> I liked Yes, also.
DC> No... Besides, you will never guess who was my favorite group.
Well, if it's that unlikely...the Monkees? The Archies? (Sorry, but you
said I would never guess it, so I had to guess what I would think most
unlikely for you to like...) More seriously...the Mothers of Invention?
Jefferson Airplane/Starship?
DC> Sounds just what my daughter and son do!
AS> How old are they again?
DC> At their ages, both too young and too old! Derrick's 10 and Natalie's
DC> 13, going on twenty...
Well, Brian will be 10 this April, and Jamie will be 13 this October.
So...are you ready for the prospect of her dating? My brother was the wild
one in the family, and he has a girl, and I think the poor girl might as
well join a nunnery until she's grown...Dave will be SO paranoid about any
of her dates. He's done it all, and is wise to all the dodges...
... Veni Vidi Fetuccini: I came, I saw, I had lunch.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 16 Mar 96 04:09:00
EID:7ee1 20702120
MSGID: 1:116/19 046781A4
AS> Ever see CAT PEOPLE...the original, black and white version, rather
AS> than the Natasia Kinski thing? You never saw the monsters. And it
AS> worked much more effectively than that.
DC> Sounds good. However, I didn't see either of them...
If the older Cat People comes on television (but you don't get cable,
right? Fat chance.) get it. Or it MIGHT be in video.
AS> Oh, the Haunting. I don't think Brian's ever seen the
AS> Exorcist,certainly not the uncut version. He's seen POLTERGIEST,
DC> On a re-view of the Exorcist, I found it rather tame, and, at the
DC> wrong times, a bit funny!
There IS something a little silly about pea soup...
AS> Yeah, GHOST STORY by Straub (that was what you meant, right?) was
DC> That's the one.
He was supposed to be a more polished Stephen King. But though he cowrote
with King, I really didn't like him as much as King.
AS> and did a homage to them. MAny of the plot devices are lifted from
AS> different stories by M.R. James, Arthur MAchen, Oliver Onions.
DC> As I haven't read them, I couldn't say.
Trust me. Those Victorians could write some good ghost stories..
AS> ghost stories. It's called "All Hollows"....don't recall the author,
DC> I've heard of that. You are going to force me to find a copy of
DC> it an read it some dark and stormy night... ;)
I remember, once, as a teenager, I housesat my grandmother's house. (My
grandmother was an exact duplicate of Peter Parker's Aunt May, BTW.) She
lived in an old, ornate three story house with winding stairs and the whole
bit. I brought to read that night, TALES OF TERROR AND THE SUPERNATURAL,
an anthology of frightening stories, both natural and supernatural. The
bedrooms were upstairs. I was upstairs, reading on a bed, and then realized
that I would have to go downstairs, turn off ALL the lights, and then go
up
that winding stair to the upstairs. It was NOT good reading material to
have at that time, to stir the imagination before going there and making
that huge house dark...
And then there was the time I gave blood while reading Stephen King's
SALEM'S LOT, about vampires...again, a poor choice of reading
material...
... It's a miracle that curiosity survives formal education - Einstein
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: LEGEND
|Date: 16 Mar 96 04:09:00
EID:9561 20702120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467879E
DC> to *be* raised, then Jesus was not the god that he's claimed
DC> to be. It's like he claimed he could perform open heart surgery
DC> and then brough in Christian Bernard.
AS> Well, He brought in Christian, anyway...
DC> Don't forget to thank me for the straighline!
Thanks. I can resist anything, except temptation, especially puns.
AS> I still think it is a rather fine theological point. According to the
AS> OT, there were a few people raised from the dead, by prophets, at
DC> True, but that actually makes the resurrection less of a feat than
DC> it was.
I have enough problems establishing it happened at all to the satisfaction
of the people here. I'll argue about who did WHAT later...
AS> their intercession with God. Similar with Jesus raising Lazarus.
AS> Whichever way they understood what was going on, this shows an even
DC> If you think about it, it is the "miracles" and the parallels to
DC> the OT prophets that is what the NT is about. The mythos is
DC> enraptured with making the man fit the prophecies.
True. Even Jesus was shown wanting to literally make a prophecy come true,
by getting the ass to ride into Jerusalem, thus fulfilling a Messianic
prophecy. He quite obviously staged that to accord with the Scriptures,
which doesn't make it any less valid.
AS> greater mark of God's favor. I personally believe, as did many of the
AS> disciples, that Jesus WAS God, but either way it was a miracle.
DC> The Jerusalem Church thought him as a messiah. The god-hood is
DC> bestowed by a ancillary member of that group, not by the leaders
DC> of that church.
But the epistle of James, who we think WAS the leader of the Jerusalem
Church, seems to imply differently. (Notice that Jude, probably yet another
brother of Jesus, just identified himself shortly as James' brother...we
can assume he thought it too presumptous to stress his relationship with
Jesus, but did want to get the status of being the brother of the leader
of
the church at the time.
... For once I'm at a loss for words. Mark down the date!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 18 Mar 96 00:07:00
EID:9561 207200e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 046790A4
DC> .. deep fried ice cream,
AS> Don't they have that in Mexican restaurants?
DC> Sure do... You should have received a recipe for that in a
DC> later packet. I know have at least 4 or 5 variatZ qRof it!
I'll take that as an endorsement...
DC> Use day old mashed potatoes. They have to be very stiff, though
AS> Saved to file. My wife sounded interested, too...
DC> Let me know if you have any problems if you make it. The key
DC> is to make sure the potato balls are fully coated with the
DC> batter when the are put in the oil...
Will do. It may be just a little while before we try it, Barb's doing some
volunteer work, so meals this week are a little on the quick'n'easy side.
... He who laughs, lasts.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 16 Mar 96 05:01:00
EID:953e 20702820
MSGID: 1:116/19 04679810
AS> And WON'T sign off that way, either. It's hypocritical, when he says
AS> things that are hateful and/or hurtful about or to people, to always
AS> sign off in that way.
DC> Thank you for confirming that obsevation! Careful, though, consorting
DC> with the "enemy" may cause Mikey to put you in his Twit List.. :)
Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that you are PROUD to be on Mike's Twit
List? Truthfully, when he called me after the fire, he said it helps
to
reduce the "noise ratio" of the echo. Personally, I kind of like
it...sometimes you get some real winners like Asmodeus.
AS> especial need in your life, and the only times I have been really
AS> tempted for the Holy Smoke people was Gwenny and her assorted
AS> troubles, Judith when her husband lost the job, Quentin when he was
AS> saying he would commit suicide by age thirty if not laid...real needs.
DC> Yet, you have often done the greater deed, of offering help and/or
DC> moral support. That's what makes a friend a real freind.
Right, and your concern after the fire was the mark of a true friend, also.
Mike was similarly concerned, and even sent me a book on the drawings of
Tolkien that I appreciated.
AS> have real needs. But I know why YOU don't pray. You're a god, right?
Got that right! :)
AS> "I wish I could pray for you," said Zeus in a mid-sixties comic
AS> book,"but there are NONE to hear the prayers of a god."
DC> Do you happen to remember which one that was in?
It was a comic called "the (something) of HERCULES"--the labors? The
trials? The adventures? It was published by Charlton Comics (the same
company that produced Ditko's Blue Beetle and Captain Atom and Question)
with excellent art and every issue they covered one of the labors of
Hercules. Cannot recall the name of the artist, but it was one of the most
faithful renditions of Greek mythology I ever saw in comic books. I know
the artist mainly did some of Charlton's war comics. It was probably only
supposed to last twelve issues, for the twelve labors, but it proved more
popular than they thought, and lasted a little longer, with fights between
Ares and Hercules, etc.
... I have become comfortably numb.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 16 Mar 96 05:06:00
EID:5815 207028c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467A986
AS> The early Christian martyrs that hadn't known Jesus? Certainly. Or
AS> Joan of Arc. Or the Crusaders. But still, the apostles were a little
AS> different. They died (or were flogged or imprisoned or whatnot) NOT
DC> Problem is that only the death of Stephen seems to be independantly
DC> documented.
Where? Curious there. The only mention I know of the death of Stephen is
in
Acts. I know Josephus mentions the death of James, the head of the
Jerusalem Church, which was a different thing than the death of James,
brother of John and son of Zebedee, which was mentioned in Acts.
AS> the Sanhedrin. The kamikaze pilots didn't say, "Oh, I'm going to
AS> kill myself because I saw the Emperor raise someone from the dead."
DC> No, he did that because he beleived his Emperor to be the god that
DC> his society claimed the Emperor to be.
Right. The Roman centurions, or the Roman gladiators, similarly went to
their death for the same reason. But that does NOT mean they can give any
earnest for believing that the Emperor is a god. They are just believing
tradition, or, in the case of new religions, buying into the hype. God is
a
title only slightly more exalted than emperor in their minds. But neither
the kamikaze pilots nor the Roman guards ever witnessed a miracle to
justify their faith.
AS> Welllll...individual belief I think, can be safely regarded as unable
AS> to be proven one way or the other. But we do attach more importance
to
DC> The same thing holds for a common belief. After all, many people
DC> believed that the earth was flat.
But surely common witness counts for something, else you have little reason
to believe anything in history at all.
AS> pieces....because they have observed the phenomena which they are
AS> claiming. Now, the options are these:
They were misreported and never claimed that.
They were lying.
They were mad.
They were telling the truth.
AS> You can mix and match them. Peter went mad and the rest lied for
AS> him, for instance.
DC> Works for me.
It only entails them deliberately going against the teachings of their
Master ("you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free") and
that of their religion ("thou shalt not bear false witness") and be willing
to endure being flogged to feed Peter's fantasies.
DC> Just which of the gospels are written by one of those "eyewitnesses"?
AS> Gospel of John.
DC> Any independent evidence to support that?
Not a seperate contemporary reference, no. But the internal evidence...the
lack of mention of the sons of Zebedee, of James and John, the way the
writing matches that of the epistles of John, the details of many of the
incidents which tend to be more detailed than the other Gospels, and the
obvious firsthand knowledge of first century Jerusalem before its fall,
makes the identification by Irenaeus and Celsus (believer and nonbeliever)
in the middle of the second century pretty plausible.
AS> I personally think the Matthew we see is a rewrite.
AS> Luke never claimed to be, Mark supposedly got it second-hand from
AS> PEter.
DC> Which, as you admit, goes to the "rumor theory", in that each
DC> one was futher embellished to make a better story and mythos.
But as Marilyn pointed out, the vast majority of the disciples were
fishermen before they started out. She thought it was unlikely that ANY
of
the Gospels could be by the original hands, and I begged to differ,
especially since all Jewish children were taught to read so the males, at
least, could read the Torah at the synogogue. However, one can understand
why they would leave the task of chronicling things to a translator like
Mark or a doctor like Luke. One can assume Matthew, as a tax collector,
might have to at least some written style, since he would have had to write
to the powers that be for favors, etc. John I think was a matter of
learning over the decades, and I suspect he was an Essene before he was
part of John the Baptist's crowd before he went to Jesus. He is the
exception that proves the rule, or something. I don't think they were
ignorant, but it is the equivelent of a bunch of truck drivers leaving
behind good writing...not as likely.
... A locked chastity belt---steel crazy after all these years...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: FLOOD
|Date: 16 Mar 96 05:03:00
EID:5815 20702860
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467B17E
AS> You created Bridgette Bardot in her prime? Ursula Andress? Julie
AS> Newmar? Terri Hatcher? Hmmmm. Now THERE's a power...
DC> Not bad, huh? What 'til you see what I do next! After all,
Any volunteers to "test-drive" 'em? And if that is what you RELEASED, who
knows what you kept for YOURSELF....
DC> I've got the expert on my staff now: George Burns! The
DC> only problem will be that Gracie wants him to go on vacation
DC> for a bit. Strange, though, she mentioned about playing
DC> around in Peoria...
Well, I'm glad you've got some expert help. He's had expertise both at
being God, and being with pretty ladies.
DC> Of course not. Besides, why would I create something and just
DC> decide to throw it in the dumpster?
AS> Did you create Asmodeus?
DC> Laughs... Everyone needs a good laugh every now and then.
DC> You have to admit, he provided many!
Sort of a crown jester of the cosmos!!
Is there an anti-Dan coming?
... Unspeakable error in module Cthulhu at address R'lyeh.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CULT EVAULATION FORM
|Date: 18 Mar 96 09:01:00
EID:12c2 20724820
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467BB1A
DC> I'm not sure, but I think I have a few John Carter comics.
DC> And, NO! I don't have any duplicates in that series!!!! :-)
AS> That's okay. The original trilogy--Princess of Mars, Gods of Mars,
AS> Warlord of Mars--I had in hardback--with drawings by the incomparable
DC> I have very few books in my collection. Most of what I have are
DC> old college texts. Worse is that the better ones seem to have
DC> somehow gotten lost in one of my moves. :(
A shame. My wife just gave me a twenty five dollar gift certificate for
the
local used book store. Doesn't sound like much, but since I can pick up
many used paperbacks for a dollar apiece, I can get many of the things I
lost.
AS> Have to doublecheck that.) Comic book adaptions of other media I don't
AS> care as much for (although I did like Roy Thomas' Conan)...I just get
AS> the originals!
DC> As in another message, different media results in filtered
DC> reiteration. Further, the reteller/artist makes an interpretation
DC> that may not be the original intent of the author. It may just
DC> be a personal bias by the reteller, or even as a marketing ploy.
Thomas is pretty good at sticking with the original. Although I did like
the two-parter where Elric met Conan, back in the Barry-Smith days...
... I'm more humble than you are!!!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 18 Mar 96 00:00:00
EID:b620 20720000
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467C286
AS> Besides, when you're searching for something, you always find
AS> something you had forgotten about!
DC> Yeah! And then I go and use it for what I was looking for that
DC> way back when and forget to continue the search for what I
DC> currently was looking for...
Don't think of it as chaotic, disconnected thinking. Think of it as
"lateral" thinking. Encourage the unexpected! (With a little work, we could
make this into one of those nutty self-help books you sometimes see.)
AS> Wise. Super-heroes aren't always winners...most of them can be big
There have just too many that did a short run....
And too alike.
AS> Though it's funny...many of the DC artists went over to Marvel and
AS> worked quite well, to much praise (and vice versa...Jack Kirby came
to
DC> There's still something about the Marvel art as compared to the
DC> DC art. I must admit, though, I haven't even read, let along
DC> bought, a DC comic in ages.
Batman can be pretty good. They play him sort of as a cross between Dirty
Harry and Dracula. The first Batman movie, with its dark overtones (the
one
with Keaton as Batman and Nicholson as Joker) is pretty much the feel of
the comics these days. Flash is pretty good, Sandman is excellent. The
rest....eeehhhh...except for a few gems like Spectre and Impulse, are
pretty forgettable. I'd tell you what's been happening at Spider-Man, but
it would take extremely long to tell, and would be extremely confusing,
and
they've been bad stories to boot. (However, there was a touching special
in
which Aunt May died...finally...and yes, she did know towards the end.)
Some of the best new villains to come down the pike lately have been Venom
and Carnage, similar to Spider-Man in many ways. Fantastic Four...? Again,
don't ask. Could badly use excellent writers and artists, instead of just
passable ones. X-Men is at least passaable, much of the time, although
often very redundent.
AS> As Larry Niven said in "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex", if people go
AS> around shamelessly without lead in their underwear, it's hardly
DC> I'll have to look for it. What was it published in?
ALL THE MYRIAD WAYS. If you have web access, you can find it via a search
engine such as Webcrawler or Yahoo or Infoseek by searching under Larry
Niven.
AS> consummate her lust for Superman (hint: Kryptonian muscles. He'd blow
AS> off the top of her head. The sperm would emerge with the muzzle
AS> velocity of a cruise missile.)
DC> Most definitely heard of excepts, for sure, as I did see the
DC> one above!
Wouldn't be suprised. Often reprinted. (Besides, if Lois did become
preggars, and the kid inherits Kryptonian strength, if the kid kicks...
kills mother AND baby with one blow. Although, as an alien, there's really
no reason to suppose they could crossbreed...)
AS> They are pretty faithful, but nothing quite matches the real feel of
AS> REH's prose, undiluted. Not great writing, but forceful and colorful.
DC> It's the same with most media that does translations. Most often,
DC> the first version you see is deemed to be the "best". Besides,
DC> an additional re-viewing in a different media tends to be just
DC> that. And exception was reading _The Once and Future King_.
DC> Though I looked for the similarities to Richard Harris' _Camelot_,
DC> I found the book to be a lot of fun.
Oh, yes. That was a good one. You can learn quite a lot about the Middle
Ages by reading some of his comments inbetween the real action.
AS> which was a companion piece to the color TOMB OF DRACULA comic that
AS> had Solomon Kane versus Dracula. Now THERE'S a match...
DC> Can't remember if I got that issue, but it does sound familiar...
Beautiful babe in a sheer nightgown comes after Solomon, Solomon spurns
her
(one of those places where he is NOT Conan) and she tries to put the bite
on him...a vampire's bite.
... I think sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: TENNESSEE COMMAND
|Date: 18 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:f1b9 20724800
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467D0A0
PS> blow it to hell. That's a bald circumvention of the First Amendment
of
DC> As I mentioned to Al, looks like it may be a newer version of
DC> _Inherit the Wind_ in the offing.
AS> When it comes to State Legislatures, it's more like Inherit the
AS> Windbag.
DC> ROTFL! Thanks for the great tagline. Saved it to POLIT.TXT, but
DC> it may be just as good in SCIEN or FUNDY files...
Exactly how many taglines do you have in all, do you think?
... No sense in being pessimistic--- it won't work anyway.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: WESTERN THOUGHT
|Date: 18 Mar 96 09:01:00
EID:e29b 20724820
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467D532
AS> the scientific method arose out of Western culture, which combined
AS> the Platonian passion for logic and philosophy with the exclusivist
AS> views inherited from Judiac tradition...that there is one truth to
MM> There are some things that are only one way... such as laws of thermodynamics
MM> and such... there are other things that are quiet flexible... what kind
of dog
MM> to own.... where to live....how to put your dishes in the cabinet etc.
For me
MM> religion falls into the hey keep the diversity area.... scientific knowledge
is
MM> almost always theory until proven pretty well.... but then there's the
MM> Hizenburg uncertainty principle heheheh
Hiesenberg's? True. And Godel's and many another that draw limits to what
we can know. Still...ultimately...some things are contradictory. The
Creator can't be someone who rewards war and killing, a la Odin, and
someone who rewards nonviolence and turning the other cheek, like Jesus.
... Entropy always wins.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: GIGGLE
|Date: 18 Mar 96 09:05:00
EID:3ff1 207248a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467E00E
AS> ... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
MM> Hey, that sums up today! Thanks.
You having a Monday squared?
... Death is life's way of telling you you've been fired.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Damien Nimeck
|Sub: SHIT
|Date: 18 Mar 96 00:04:00
EID:f7cc 20720080
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467E7C0
DN> You are scum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Why did you dump me???????
DN> Because you have a small penis.
Any reason you are addressing...to YOURSELF...on an international
forum...your own inadequacies?
Just curious.
... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 18 Mar 96 00:07:00
EID:88f1 207200e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0467EDA6
AS>> Feel free to address me as "Al Scroder" or something.
DO>> :-)
AS> Of course, it is better than my nickname (and my brother's) when we
AS> were in high school, which was "scrotum"...
DO> Thought about it... ;)
Gee, THANKS...
... If everything seems to go right, check your zipper!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: RE: ANGELS OR DEMONS???
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:07:00
EID:ffa1 207338e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F38DFA
AS> Hmmm.
AS> Local here in Nashville?
AS> Grigor-Scott's brand of rascist insanity?
AS> (Mission Imposible theme music...)
JH> They do air other material (lots of nickel and dime televangelists,
JH> Dr. Gene Scott is on one transmitter 24 hours a day and lots of
JH> black "apostolic" programs), but they do have a special affinity
JH> for the far-right lunitic fringe. Including several programs that
JH> are openly part of the "Christian Identity" movement.
We have more churches for a city our size than just about any other city
in America (although I believe Las Vegas may surpass us.). So, it is not
suprising that the nut fringe has a large presence also.
AS> Let's see now, I'll need a few incindiary grenades, a few
AS> pounds of thermite, a grappling hook, my set of skeleton
AS> keys and burgler's tools, and let's see, who should I pick
AS> to accompany me...? I'd use Tom Cruise to show him how it's
AS> done, but he might think the Scientologists are next...?
JH> PLEASE! I don't suppose you know about the first WWCR fire. It
JH> occured when they added transmitter number three. The Fire Dept.,
JH> the insurance company and all other professionals who investigated
JH> the fire were convinced it was a simple case of poor housekeeping in
JH> an old wood frame building that was never intended to house
JH> equipment that draws thousands of kilowatts of electrical power.
JH> However, George McClintock (manageing director) is still
JH> convinced (along with many of WWCR's listeners) that the
JH> fire was set by sinster forces. I really wouldn't try
JH> approaching the transmitter site after dark, they're probably
JH> ready and waiting for you. (But if David Worell doesn't object,
JH> we might let you borrow the tank.)
JH>
You see, I'm claiming ignorance NOW, so no one can link me to the previous
fire...
JH> WWCR is the US's number one exporter of US grown hate-paranoia.
JH> Without it, characters like Grigor-Scott would have to settle
JH> for inferior brands of locally produced hate-paranoia.
Do they have a local station, in addition to the shortwave, I wonder? I
remember fooling with the dials on the car radio one night and getting a
preacher whom Grigor-Scott would be cheering, it was so full of
misinformation and misconceptions about Christianity.
... Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. (Nietzsche)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Chesterton
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:02:00
EID:4100 20733840
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F390FC
AS> "The Hammer of God". Here he is speaking about a blacksmith
AS> who is a Scottish presbyterian.
JH> [...]
AS> ...saying that because the blacksmith is not a Presbyterian,
AS> Father Brown did not consider him a Christian.
JH> Please make up your mind. Was he a Presbyterian or not?
Yes.
AS> Gardner says of G.K., "Although many of Chesterton's lifelong
AS> firends were Jews--forgive the hackneyed apology--there is no
JH> He had Jews in his fireplace?
No. (Torquemada, maybe....)
AS> Among mystery writers Agatha Christian and Dorothy Sayers were
AS> often guilty of the same practice.
JH> Agatha WHO ?
JH> It looks like Asmodeus made you dyslexic.
Well, at the very least his curse made me write that late at night, where
I was obviously sleepier than I realized....
... sysop ('sih sop) n. - the guy laughing at your typing
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:03:00
EID:746d 20733860
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F3949E
AS> However, he constantly slams people who are anti-SEMITIC. Such as
AS> yourself.
AG> But I am PRO-Semitic. It is the Jews who are anti-Semitic. The
AG> self-styled Jew is in actuality a Gentile who impersonates the
AG> Israelites related to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They stole the
AG> Land of Israel from the Semitic residents - both Arab and Hebrew
AG> Israelite and they persecute and treat as very much second-rate
AG> citizens the true Israelites in the Land.
SA> Al-
SA> He is a nut case, pure and simple...it is no wonder Jim Taylor
SA> was so hard on him. Too bad he is rotten at taking hints (even when
SA> they are the size of anvils falling from the sky). Hmmm, did you find
SA> any anvils we could drop on him when you were cleaning out your old
SA> apartment? The smellier, the better.
Send the Warner Brothers (and Warner sister), Yakko, Wacko, and Dot after
him...
Oh, yes, I know he's a nut case. The serpent got Eve pregnant? Even if
one takes Genesis literally, you have to go a LOOONG way to say that with
a straight face, and that contradicts other parts of the Bible. I can't
help it, I like arguing or putting down obviously hate-filled garbage.
Especially since he calls himself Christian. Let's look at it this way...
suppose you are one of a small group of Americans in a foreign land, and
one of your fellow Americans is a loud-mouthed idiot who constantly puts
down foreigners, defends My Lai and herding Indians into reservations and
slavery. I think I would be oblidged to say something to indicate how much
I disagreed with him. Similarly, in Holy Smoke, the majority are
nonbelievers. Loons like Grigor-Scott tend to reinforce the stereotype
some have formed of Christians. His anti-Semitism gives some new grist to
reinforce their ideas of Christians, making it all one with say,
Torquemada, Martin Luther, and the German churches who were silent when
Hitler did the Holocaust. (Not every nonbeliever thinks that way here,
or
even most, but there are a sizable minority who at least PROFESS to think
that way, although really in most cases I think it is hyperbole rather
than convinction.)
Of course, I like arguing with NON-Christian loons, like the unlamented
Jim Lammon or the idiotic Asmodeus.
Everybody has to have a hobby. That's mine.
Besides, the more I send Grigor-Scott to the Bible to refute me, the
more chance he might actually stumble across the passages that show him
how wrong his hate is.
... Universe: Imagination riding on Paradox.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 19 Mar 96 08:02:00
EID:5815 20734040
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F397A0
AS> But that's really a non-point, Dan. That's like saying because you
AS> didn't see someone arrive at customs when entering the country, though
DC> Al, just how many people have you seen raised from the dead? Better
DC> yet, how many people have you seen raise themselves from the dead?
None. Don't expect to, either, until, at least in this life, unless the
End of the World comes in my lifetime, which I think is unlikely.
Again, C.S. Lewis. "God does not shake miracles into Nature at random like
a pepper-caster. They come on great occasions; they are found at the
great ganglions of history--not of political and social history, but of
that spiritual history which cannot be fully known by men. If your own
life does not happen to be near one of those great ganglions, how should
you expect to see one? If we were heroic missionaries, apostles, or
martyrs, it would be a different matter. But why you or I? Unless you live
near a railway, you will not see trains go past your windows. How likely
is it that you or I will be present when a peace-treaty is signed, when
a
great scientific discovery is made, when a dictator commits suicide? That
we should see a miracle is even less likely. Nor, if we understand, shall
we be anxious to do so. 'Nothing almost sees miracles but misery.'
Miracles and martyrdoms tend to bunch about the same areas of
history--areas that we naturally have no wish to frequent." You have to
remember that I think God does not bend the laws of physics that He
Himself made with such loving care unless there is a need. And both must
work together, both Nature and the Supernatural, to ends He has designed.
I believe...as part of Christian theology...that the Resurrection was
necessary to keep one from being forever weighed down with one's past
sins. That it is as necessary a step for our spiritual developement and
well-being as the sun forming was necessary for our physical well-being.
But there is no need for more than one sun in the sky, and I would not
demand to see the sun formed more than once.
DC> The resurrection isn't a mundane claim, but a very extraordinary
DC> claim. It requires more than just ordinary evidence.
Granted, but, does it mean, contrariwise, that one must fall back on the
most improbable explanations in PREFERENCE to believing in a miracle? For
many it does. Many will fall back on "collective hallucinations, hypnotism
of unconsenting spectators, widespread instantaneous conspiracy in lying
by people not otherwise known to be liars and not likely to gain by the
lie--all three are known to be very improbable events; so improbable that,
except for the special purpose of excluding a miracle, they are never
suggested. But they are preferred to the admission of a miracle." If I
said that Lincoln was never assasinated, but that it was a conspiracy by
the Republicans after Lincoln died of a heart attack to villify Southern
sympathizers, and that all the records were tampered with by the ensuing
Republican administrations...you cannot prove me wrong. Put that way, I
could make a strong case that Booth was a scapegoat, and even make that
theory fit into the scheme of the times. I could make it sound plausible.
But I wouldn't be believed; it would be laughed at by historians and I
would be told I have watched too many Oliver Stone movies.
Yet many of the explanations given for why the early Christian movement
behaved as it did and left behind the records it did are much the same.
"Oh, it was tampered with by ensuing Christian writers; it is too absurd;
there MUST be another explanation." And yet, I can justify the eyewitness
of John of the events every bit as much as others could justify the
eyewitness of others to Lincoln's assasination. Every time someone says,
"Well, we have the sworn statement of an eyewitness" I could reply, "you
have the CLAIM of someone to be an eyewitness. Can you prove he really
was?" It's a dog who is chasing his own tail and getting nowhere.
Again, C.S. Lewis. "Ever since Hume's famous ESSAY it has been believed
that historical statements about miracles are the most intrinsically
improbable of all historical statements. According to Hume, probability
rests
on what may be called the majority vote of our past experiences. The more
often a thing has been known to happen, the more probable it is that it
should happen again; and the less often the less probable. Now the
regularity of Nature's course, says Hume, is supported by something better
than the majority vote of past expereiences; it is supported by their
unanimous vote, or, as Hume says, by 'firm and unalterable experience.'
There is, in fact, 'uniform experience' against Miracles; otherwise, says
Hume, it would not be a Miracle. A miracle is therefore the most
improbable of all events. It is always more probable that the witnesses
were lying or mistaken than that a miracle occurred.
"Now of course we must agree with Hume that if there is absolutely
'uniform experience' against miracles, if in other words they have never
happened, why then they never have. Unfortunately we know the experience
agaisnt them to be uniform only if we know that all the reports of them
are false. And we can know all the reports to be false only if we know
already that miracles have never occured. In fact, we are arguing in a
circle."
DC> [CS Lewis]
AS> and skeptics chiefly try to impugn. But this almost exclusive
AS> concentration on the first five minutes of so would have astonished
AS> the earliest Christian teachers. In claiming to have seen the
DC> However, there was not a single eyewitness to the claimed event.
DC> Even the list of supposed witnesses to the "death" are in
DC> contradiction via the various stories.
Oh, it can be reconciled without much effort, for the most part. The
Narrated Bible, done by the people who did the NIV, is an attempt to get
all of the Bible in chronological order, including the Gospel accounts,
including the Resurrection appearances. If you're interested I can give
you a brief timeline, but this post has gone on pretty long as it is.
... Dangerous exercise: jumping to conclusions
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 19 Mar 96 08:04:00
EID:7b25 20734080
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F39A98
AS> AS> Blows up in your face, eh?
AS>
AS> KDM> Not necessarily. Note that he said nothing about turning it
AS>on.
AS> I've had enough fires lately, anyway.
KDM> Yes, I'd forgotten that.
I'm probably not going to like fireworks this Fourth of July for the same
reason...
... Everything you wanted to know about Phobias, but were afraid to ask.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Questor's back
|Date: 19 Mar 96 08:04:00
EID:f892 20734080
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F39D9A
SQ> It's a Microsoft world out here, Fred...just plain EVIL. EVIL!
SQ> [I'm getting ready to finish my MCSE this week. "I'll be back."]
Hey, Steve, Dave Oosterman sent me e-mail that he's getting ready to take
one of the Microsoft exams, for Windows, I believe. Could you send your
e-mail address to him at...wait, he may not want it given out. Hmmm. Okay,
e-mail me at al.schroeder@nashville.com and I'll give it to you, or if you
want, just post your e-mail address publicly to me, if you don't care.
(_I_ don't. I like mail.) (If you do have Internet accress, my home page
has a link to a TANELORN page, BTW...)
... There are _never_ enough bookshelves.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 19 Mar 96 08:09:00
EID:e1ef 20734120
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F3A11E
AM> Prior to the influen of Christianity, there were no big groups
AM> devoted to charitable work. In Christ's time, there were no food
AM> banks, no shelters for the homeless no clothing drives.
RB> Yes, the poor and disadvantaged of the middle ages really
RB> fared well under Christianity. <-sarcasm
RB> The citizens and leaders of many countries were overwhelmingly
RB> Christian for centuries. And yet, compassion for the poor was
RB> conspicuously absent. Why was that? Could it be that humanitarianism
RB> is a concept not necessarily associated with religion?
Nevertheless Andrew's statement is true. Read Robin Lane Fox's PAGANS AND
CHRISTIANS. The Christian movement scored points in the centuries between
Jesus and Constantine by offering aid and shelter to people during
disasters, whereas the goverment offered aid to the landed and wealthy to
help repair their villas. (Fox is by no means complimentary of Christians
as a whole, but he is an honest historian.) In the Middle Ages, about the
only place a poor person could find shelter was at a monastery or a
church, and not always there, more's the pity. But it beat what they had
before.
... They come to ridicule yet stay to listen. The truth will set you free
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: (2/2)YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 19 Mar 96 01:02:00
EID:9603 20730840
MSGID: 1:116/19 027D5DDC
AS> You have an excellent point in that, for many previous generations
AS> would regard with horror and disgust what is done routinely
AS> (abortions) and talk about assisted suicides and euthenasia. (Whether
JB> You mean like the generations that sold their children or exposed them
JB> on a hillside when they were unwanted? Same with their elderly. Or beat
I wasn't thinking about preChristian Rome, which permitted abortion either
way. Because, of course, the coming of Christianity put an end to
exposing children on hillsides, at least as endorsed by society, no matter
what individuals did. (With the admitted exceptions of those who felt they
have been given birth to changelings, like kalimizari in Greece, born on
what they felt was Jesus' birthday. But compared to pagan times, the two
hardly compare. And at that, usually they hid their intentions from the
village priest, who would object.) Sold into slavery? Unless you mean
indentured servanthood, I can't think of too many cases where a free
family sold their children into slavery, although I can think of some
awful cases of child labor.
JB> them (either end of the age spectrum) to death with impunity? Or
JB> starved them?
But Judith, if you go back as little as say, a generation or two, you will
meet the horror expressed above. It was certainly not CONDONED by society
to beat a child to death, or an elder to death, but was met with horror,
no matter how much it was practiced in private. Case in point. There is
a
Sherlock Holmes story where Holmes expressed a creepy feeling about seeing
a countryside, because in the city, any child beaten would be able to
reach help from his neighbors and the beater would be universally
condemned. I'm not denying they had different standards than we on
corporal punishment, but NO generation condoned either the beating of
children to death or the beating death of the elderly because they were
useless. I suspect that was true in preChristian times, as well.
JB> Yep, they'd be horrified alright.
Yes. They would.
... Ignorance is slavery. Knowledge is freedom.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 19 Mar 96 01:08:00
EID:6a7f 20730900
MSGID: 1:116/19 027D6174
RB> You may be right. But I think that 'instinct' has to do with
RB> survival and not eternity.
AS> But many here--I presume you yourself---get along perfectly
AS> fine without a belief in an afterlife. The Sadduccees (i.e.,
AS> Caiphas, etc.) in the Bible themselves, despite being the
AS> High Priest of the Jewish religion, dispensed with same. If
AS> the fear of not surviving is so all-prevasive, why do so many
AS> people accept it with equanimity? Why did no society develop
AS> without such an "abberation"?
MB> There is hardly anything aberrant about not wanting to die. It
MB> is the flip side of our survival instinct. Or, do you consider
MB> a will to survive to be aberrant?
I call creating a fantasy to artificially coddle that survival instinct
a
little aberrant, yes. You see you...and Rob..and the Sadduccees...and
Isaac Asimov...and Harlan Ellison...and Richard Dawkins...and Mark
Twain...and quite a few others lived normal, fairly productive, fairly
interesting lives without that "crutch". I am addressing that above. If
a
large minority of the human race can get along without it, why did it
develop at all? If there is no truth in it, why did such stories develop?
Why are you able to get along without it? Is your survival instinct any
less well developed than mine? I doubt it.
As I said in a different post, those who advocate such a theory are
themselves the best evidence of why it's a silly theory.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Sharks
|Date: 19 Mar 96 01:09:00
EID:ca87 20730920
MSGID: 1:116/19 027D6516
AS> It's a good thing my friend doesn't read this conference, or I
AS> would REALLY be in for razzing, for mistelling the turning point of
AS> his life. Hmmm...what tastes good with crow?
MB> Humble Pie.
Too true.
... A cynic smells the flowers & looks for the casket!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 19 Mar 96 01:00:00
EID:8d8d 20730800
MSGID: 1:116/19 027D6886
AS> Speaking of half-and-half...look at the latest issue of LIFE. In it
AS> is a story of a little girl...or two little girls, really--who have
JB> Don't have to. They were on Good Morning America last week. From what
JB> their parents said, separation would kill them both, not just one.
At least the doctors thought they MIGHT be able to save one...of course,
it would leave the one that survived totally crippled (and riddled with
guilt, no doubt.)
JB> Cute kids.
Weren't they, though.
... Heart Attacks -- God's Revenge For Eating His Animal Friends.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: WACO WEB SITE
|Date: 19 Mar 96 01:02:00
EID:103b 20730840
MSGID: 1:116/19 027D6D04
AS> Didja know that Oprah Winfrey used to be a local reporter here?
AH> Oprah was a local reporter here in Baltimore, too. Nick Charles, John
AH> Saunders, and Gayle Gardner all did sports here before going national.
Interesting. I know Oprah's father still lives here, so I think she must
have gone from Nashville to Baltimore before she hit the big time.
... "Then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade towards thy foe..."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Joseph Kosturko
|Sub: Faith
|Date: 20 Mar 96 22:54:47
EID:1419 2074b6c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3150d306
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Joseph Kosturko Faith wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JK> insulted or attacked and show love to all mankind. IF I AM WRONG, THEN
JK> THE WORLD WILL BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE IF OTHERS WOULD START MAKING
THE
JK> SAME 'MISTAKE!' Love in Christ,
Really? Would this be the same mistake that permits things like the
Inquisition, the Crusades, the Conquest of the Americas (an act that
makes the Rape of Nanking look like a humanitarian effort), and similar
outrages perpetrated in the name of Christianity?
... AD&D Advice: It is unwise to meddle in the affairs of wizards.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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SEEN-BY: 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 20 Mar 96 22:54:47
EID:a043 2074b6c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3150d307
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Selena Kerr Re: The end? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
SK> be purple? The final nuclear war is supposed to be started by someone
SK> in the middle east and china i think. I am not too sure aboutthat.
Why should they?
SK> But if the end is by nuclear war then does it matter who much time the
SK> sun will still be around?
Who are the likely candidates to kick off a nuclear war any time soon?
... "Bother," said Pooh, as his left side went all numb and tingly.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Debate/Logic/Education
|Date: 20 Mar 96 22:54:47
EID:059c 2074b6c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3150d309
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Marilyn Burge Debate/Logic/Education wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> In my case, I got by on less. I've been on HOLYSMOKE for over a year,
PS> more like two--and my education on logic and the procedures used in
PS> debate all came from this conference.
MB> Now for a moment of egotism. I'm the one who originally posted
Indulge yourself. It's in our contracts that we get at least five (5)
moments of egotism per year.
MB> those rules of argumentation. They've sure gotten the mileage
MB> since. Probably the only real positive contribution I've made
MB> to this newsgroup in the years I've posted here.
But a damned positive one it was.
... "The best knife is the unseen one." -- Drow Proverb
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: WHAT??
|Date: 20 Mar 96 05:16:00
EID:4e55 20742a00
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JH> Did you ever do a FOIA request to find out exactly who was doing
JH> it and what they expected to find?
No. It was just rather funny at the time. Annoying, but funny. I'm trying
to remember which of the spy problems was real big at the time. We go
through a lot of stuff others don't because Leo is not a citizen.
At least they scrapped the plan to make all resident aliens get new green
cards (at a cost of $70) and impose a renewal fee every year. And he no
longer has to register every year. That was always a pain because he had
to do it in person at the main post office downtown. It always meant a day
off work to do it.
BTW. I took your lead and called that credit union. Their requirements for
membership are to open an account with a minimum of $51 and KEEP at least
$50 in it at all times (not just to forestall maintanance fees, but to keep
it active). They don't service businesses and the name Sacred Heart is
because it is owned by the Charleston Diocese of the Catholic Church (but
governed by a 'civilian' board of directors).
I guess that isn't illegal, but it sure is distasteful.
... Not now . . . I have to go mow the laundry.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 20 Mar 96 05:18:00
EID:dca2 20742a40
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Judith Bandsma <=-
RB> Thanks Judith. BTW, I LOVE your belly button and would you care to
go
RB> out for some quiche and maybe a little dancing?
DANCING???? What kind of a girl do you think I am? Can't we just fuck
instead?
... This echo just gets weirder and weirder. Oh wait. That's me. Sorry.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 20 Mar 96 03:36:00
EID:283e 20741c80
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Judith Bandsma <=-
JG> Exactly and at the time these "canals" were discovered, I was told
JG> about them. Later the opinion was that these "canals" were the result
JG> of the instrument being used to study the planet.
I absolutely refuse to believe that you are over 100 years old.
... Fetus - a character on 'Gunsmoke'.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 5
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:00:00
EID:9e1d 20742000
-=> Quoting Becke Jones to All <=-
BJ> more freethinkers texts, call by modem to: Freethinkers BBS (305)
BJ> 821-1909 TeleFinder, 28.8K
Becke, only parts 3, 4 and 5 came through here. So far, 1 and 2 are
missing in action.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: ABUSERS
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:2ed9 20742040
-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Judith Bandsma <=-
BJ> ever be put in that situation again. I just wish more people being
BJ> abused would realize there _is_ a way out.
Sometimes I have a hard time remembering just how foggy-brained I was
then. Protection from some of the memories, I guess. But try to remember
the isolation imposed. It's hard to find a way out when you have so little
contact with the outside world. And when they start beating on you for
(in Jack's words, at any rate) 'thinking' about things, it gets very hard
to NOT believe them when they say they will track you down and kill you.
And for some reason, they seem to have the ability to do just that. When
I finally got out, I left a lot of false clues and finally ended up in a
place I had never been before. Didn't let ANYONE who knew me know where
I
was...didn't even contact them for fear of Jack finding out. (For a long
time my family thought I was dead) Used a false name, fake ID, the whole
lot. He found me anyway, right down to the babysitter I was using for my
son. I still have no idea of how.
... You know when you're dieting when postage stamps taste good!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: NOTICES
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:21:00
EID:52ec 207422a0
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Kevin D. Mckenzie <=-
DM> Another interesting possibility: does the Biblical "any
DM> language" include English?
That question is absolutely elegant. I wonder how many will bite on it.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:27:00
EID:bdae 20742360
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Martin Goldberg <=-
JG> Easy, Obesity is real, Obesity is hell ...therefore Hell is real !
Fathead!
... You know when you're dieting when postage stamps taste good!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: CLAIMS OF DEITY CONSTRUC
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:34:00
EID:d5c4 20742440
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to Martin Goldberg <=-
LB> Try reading such books as "A brief History of Time" by Stephen
LB> Hawkings and other modern astro-physics books that explores time and
ROTFLMFAO! Somebody else can explain why...I'm too busy laughing at that
one.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 20 Mar 96 04:44:00
EID:59db 20742580
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Judith Bandsma <=-
PS> You know he'll find some way to discount them, or say that men did the
PS> actual leading, or some similar bullshit.
From what I've read, the women warriors were fairly well feared by their
male counterparts. Something to do with the trophies they took.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: THE END?
|Date: 20 Mar 96 05:04:00
EID:69ea 20742880
-=> Quoting Selena Kerr to Alan Hess <=-
SK> it will probably happen seeing as Nostradamus predicted things like
SK> Hitler, the JFK assasination, Napoleon, the Gulf War.... so what he
is
SK> saying is probaby gong to happen.
What you are reading ISN'T Nostradamus...you are reading somebody else's
interpretation of Nostradamus. What did he say about Hitler that couldn't
also have applied to the Tsars of Russia, most kings or emperors, or, for
that matter, the Pope? When you consider the Inquisition, etc., makes as
much sense. JFK assassination? Lincoln, (again) the Russian Tsar and his
family, etc.,etc. Every last thing he has said has already happened a few
times over. Only the names of the players change.
Yes, Selena, even the bit that is usually interpreted as nuclear war. We
already had that also...and in the (far) east, as predicted. Where was the
first place that nuclear killing capability was demonstrated publicly?
If you MUST read Nostradamus, get one of the translations WITHOUT commentary
or interpretation and work it out for yourself. You will find that it is
actually pretty silly and without someone else to put THEIR ideas to it,
you
can come up with things that are equally as valid...if you don't put it
down first, saying 'this makes absolutely no sense at all'.
Grow a brain, girl.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: All
|Sub: rabies shots anyone?
|Date: 20 Mar 96 06:42:00
EID:3984 20743540
We get some rabid ones here, but I thought you might like to see what I
am contending with on a local echo.
Ä Area: SCNet Chat ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 311 Date: 03-18-96 12:20
From: Bryan Keller Read: Yes Replied:
Yes
To: Judith Bandsma Mark:
Subj: Age of Responsibility..
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Re: 11...14....17...
> BK> The infant shouldn't be killed however because even an 11 year old
> BK> should KNOW SEX is wrong until she'd in a committed marriage...The
baby
> BK> is innocent..
> Right! And an 11 year old has the power and knowledge to tell an adult
> (who, under YOUR rules, must be respected and obeyed) to get away from
her.
> ... Ignorance has great job security.
Apparently, for all the LESSONS we try to teach kids nowadays, we as adults
and ESPECIALLY parents are doing a HORRIBLE job..<'Course, it was said that
the Boomers would be THE WORST parents in recorded history with all their
socialistic/flower power notions>..
An 11 year old SHOULD KNOW that someone even touching her somewhere is
WRONG!..And don't give me all this crap about "well kids forever have been
playing "doctor"...I know that even in my bracket YOU got caught doing even
that and you were SEVERELY punished. But HEH!..Kids go home and see sex,
SEX,
SEX on TV and they say "IT's GOTTA' be the ULTIMATE!".."It'll make me LOOK
GROWN UP"..Heh, we had a little slut back 20 years ago that was from a
single-parent family...Mom was gone all the time...The girl had sex for
the
first time at age 12..By the time she was 14, she was sexually
proficient..Her mother disapproved BUT didn't feel she could control her..Got
her The PILL instead...Some parents in the neighborhood finally TOLD the
muther they didn't want her little WHORE over at the house BECAUSE "she
was a
BAD influence" on the rest of the community..
What we need is to YANK these pregnant gals OUT of schools, put them in
HOME
ECONOMICS, and basically strip the "fantasy" that having a baby is so
romantic..Black religious leaders also FEEL we should RE-STIGMATIZE
illegitimate births..Put the SHAME of bringing a child into the world SOMEONE
doesn't want..That in turn doesn't MEAN we take the "Kill it IT's EASY"
path
either...Grandparents should be MADE to support the young mother and
child..The mother should NOT be let BACK into public school AND the GUY,
oh
WELL, the GUY, should be jailed in hard labor conditions and then FORCED
to
work his BUTT off once released to send support until the gal is 18..
In the case of MOST abortion situations, both parties, even young ones,
AGREED to have sex..That's where it could've stopped...ONCE conception takes
place, the rights of the UNBORN to BE BORN are ABOVE and BEYOND any rights
the two irresponsible parties now have...She MUST have the child AND HE
must
support/marry her..
Bring BACK the shotgun wedding and jail terms for those statutory rapists
out
there!..
-!- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 8
! Origin: TYPE-40 BBS (1:376/15)
Ä Area: SCNet Chat ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 312 Date: 03-18-96 12:32
From: Bryan Keller Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Judith Bandsma Mark:
Subj: Doesn't matter...
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Re: GOOD!!..Atleast the Aunt
> BK> When you say the girl can't be "trusted around the baby without
> BK> supervision" is it that she doesn't know how to hold it OR they fear
> BK> she'll do HARM to the poor thing?..If it's the later, perhaps Little
> BK> Mama needs treatment at a mental facility where she can't harm the
> BK> infant OR herself..
> Good Grief, Bryan! Will you listen to yourself? Of course this child needs
> counseling. She's been through not just the trauma of having a baby but
> having her parents turn their back on her. The surprise would be that
she
> WOULDN'T hold some very deep resentments of the cause of her abandonment,
> rejection and pain. She should NOT have to live with that cause for the
> rest of her life. Adoption would have provided her a chance to get her
life
> back on track...and would have been healthier for that baby, too. How's
he
> going to feel growing up in a household where one of the members actively
> hates him?
> I can't even imagine what it must feel like to have a baby before you
even
What she wants OR doesn't care for NOW is trivial compared to a helpless
baby..I don't agree that the parents should've just thrown her out BUT I'm
sure they arranged or atleast condone some member of the family taking care
of them both...HEH, 11 year old kids are KILLING one another now!..Don't
tell
me THEY don't know right from wrong atleast on the most basic level..IT's
just they don't CARE...
By using TOUGH LOVE, these parents are telling their daughter that 1> There
are consequences for doing WRONG..2>..Having a BABY is a SERIOUS BUSINESS,
not some Barbie Doll fantasy...3)..It shows what other parents should be
DOING as well....BTW, is the FATHER in JAIL YET?..
Letting a kid have his/her way, then ALLWAYS providing a safety net when
they
fail is WRONG and in the long RUN CRUELER than making them pay the
consequences..Should we coddle this 11 year old.?.Only if she is
repentant..From what I hear, she ISN'T...AND perhaps, she should be put
in a
special place for wayward girls and the Aunt and Uncle raise the child
without having to worry about her hurting/maiming/KILLING an innocent
infant..
The INFANT is the prime concern..Everything you tell me about this BRAT
is
secondary..I swear, our generation has created a veritable "Children of
the
DAMNED"!! I wonder IF you'll change your TUNE when these brats hit the
streets in a few more years as predicted TERRORIZING the landscape.?
Bleeding heart liberalizm is WHAT't gotten us into this mess...AND why so
many kids are now searching for somesort of authority..Makes the White
Supremist and Farrahkan cults look "attractive" to them..
-!- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 8
! Origin: TYPE-40 BBS (1:376/15)
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: All
|Sub: rabies shots anyone? /2
|Date: 20 Mar 96 07:50:00
EID:56ce 20743e40
And one last little gem from the mouth-foamer. About the only things I
haven't included from this one are his rants on EVERY child, no matter the
parents' religion, NEEDS a 'solid' background in Judeo/christian ethics
so
that they will be prepared to come to Jesus and be allowed to live in this
'christian nation'. He is one sick, scary, SOB.
Ä Area: SCNet Chat ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 314 Date: 03-18-96 12:47
From: Bryan Keller Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Chip Meyers Mark:
Subj: Trying to talk to KIDS...
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Re: 11...14....17...
The one thing that really PETURBS me is how so many Yuppy/Former Flower
Children try to "REASON" with their offspring..Try to "educate them"..AND
never question when the child sez "Right" to every concept..
Parents OWN their children pure and SIMPLE...You tell THEM NO and then LIVE
the example YOU want them to follow!..To tell them ALL the mechanix of sex
and think a mind full of MUSH can then decipher that into making the right
decision is FOOOOOLISH!!...You tell them SIMPLY "NO SEX BEFORE
MARRIAGE!!"...Doesn't matter IF their friends are doing it..IF you find
out
that's true, you better YANK your kids out of that situation PRONTO!..If
it
means bringing up all the cliche's we as Boomers HATED hearing from our
WISE
Parents, then so beit...They're time proven to be RIGHT...
I've found that when a kid sez "RIGHT" to a statement that it just "went
in
ONE ear and OUT the other".....With all our
"intellect" we've forgotten as a society WHAT it's like to be a child....Children have ALLWAYS given
the
reason "Everybody's doing it"...This is just the way kids are...Allways
trying to take the "easy way" out..
IF we as adults expect to have a society to live in, we've gotta' live the
example of truth and integrity and pass it on to our kids..I mean, are we
trying to raise productive, healthy adults or keep the next gen CHILDREN
forever?..
-!- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 8
! Origin: TYPE-40 BBS (1:376/15)
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 19 Mar 96 09:44:04
EID:134b 20734d80
A LITTLE HELP FROM SP:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% David Worrell,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS>> BTW, does this make David officially a messiah now?
NS>D"W> There's gonna be some changes around here, I can tell you that much.
NS> Well, are we going to see your famous turning-wine-into-water miracle
NS> or are you going to feed all of us with half a hot dog and a day old
NS> bun?
DW> Something even more difficult and miraculous - I'm going to try to
DW> give Hardly! a brain. I'm not sure if even omnipotence can accomplish
DW> that, but I am going to put forth the effort.
Are you also going to take care of the drool problem?
DW> Of course, even if I succeed there is no guarantee that Mikey will
DW> actually use what I give him.
Few people do, as it turns out.
NS> BTW, does this mean that you and JJ have to duke it out, since he's
NS> risen from the grave and is therefore probably a Messiah as well?
Or
NS> will you both open a little shop off the mall together?
DW> With 7 billion people in the world, I think there are enough followers
DW> for both of us.
Now I know you're not YHVH, but can't you be a little jealous? };)
... Famous Gods of the Bible #21! (ISA 14:12) Lucifer ("Light-Bearer").
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 19 Mar 96 09:46:25
EID:977f 20734dc0
Angels Or Demons???:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% David Worrell,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DJ>> The serpent was Adam's sexual member.
JH>> It talked?
NS> Sounds like a B.E.M. to me, some sort of E.T. . . . };) Or maybe
NS> this is that little extra something that Xtians get when they get
NS> saved? A talking winkie . . . what a concept . . .
DW> A talking penis takes some of the pleasure out of masturbation,
DW> doesn't it? What if it wants to cuddle afterwards? :)
I wouldn't find that a problem. It would be the criticisms of
technique that would bother me . . . };) Actually, getting it to moan
might make everything just a bit better . . . but just my luck, it'd
sing the Pirates of Penzanze instead . . .
... 1Samuel 18:25-7: 200 deadmen's foreskins buy David a king's daughter.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Re: Dutch cats
|Date: 19 Mar 96 09:48:46
EID:4f03 20734e00
Dutch cats:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Robert Jackson,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JH> LEIDEN, Netherlands - A reclusive cat fancier was all but consumed by
JH> his 15 pets after he died leaving them without food. Police said Frans
JH> Heemskerk's body was almost completely eaten up by his cats. Police
JH> found Heemskerk's remains Saturday after his neighbors alerted them
JH> they hadn't seen the 69-year-old man for two weeks. Heemskerk is
JH> believed to have died of natural causes up to three weeks before
JH> police discovered his remains. His cats would come and go through a
JH> window, but return to the house to feed off their owner's body.
NS> Cool. Kitty Kommunion, or sorts. Them cats were _loyal_!
RJ> As the old editor at the city desk told me long ago, as he
RJ> stubbed out his fifth cigar of the morning in the ashtray
RJ> on the desk, "Son, we don't run stories about 'man eats
RJ> pussy'--that happens every day. Come back when you got one
RJ> where 'pussy eats man'."
RJ> I'd thank him for passing that wisdom onto me, but he keeled
RJ> over in his chair with a liver you could crack a walnut on
RJ> about a hundred years ago.
I bet this has been a hard anecdote to fit into conversation, eh? Heh.
LMOA . . .
... "Ahhh, AHHHH, I am Cornholio, aaaa aaa aaaahhhh AHHHHHH!" -- Beavis
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 19 Mar 96 09:51:42
EID:4f9f 20734e60
dinosaurs?:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Robert Jackson,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> HOWEVER
JG> If it took only 2 million years for man to have evolved. In the 65
JG> million years since the dinosaur, man could have evolved and become
JG> extinct more than 30 times :-)
NS> Your source for the 2 mil figure is _______?
RJ> Hell with that, you desperately needed to gig him on the
RJ> other point: that it took Man 2M yrs to evolve from _apes_.
RJ> 65M yrs ago, the only mammals were thumb-sized shrewlike
RJ> creatures.
That's what I was in the process of doing . . .
... Happy as a Raptor in the marketplace. -- Mishearing of Beatles Song
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Brehond Laws 2/2
|Date: 19 Mar 96 09:55:04
EID:ef47 20734ee0
Brehond Laws 2/2:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% J.J. Hitt,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS> . . . There, I think those should be posted on every Church
NS> around the country myself. Some of them make an awful lot
NS> of sense, IMHO. };)
JH> I notice that it costs 24 cows to buy an acre of land, but
JH> only 21 cows to kill a slave.
Amazing, isn't it? I wonder if you could mix and match: give one slave
and 3 cows to get some land, etc. How would you make change?
JH> Never have understood why people are nostalgic for such times.
My (far too-long) experience with the Society for Creative Anachronism
has taught me that they were nostalgic over an _idealized_ vision of
it, not the real thing. At the present date, I consider the SCA to be
a cult of sorts, so I'm glad I'm outta there. I rarely met more people
who failed to live up to their spoken/written ideas outside of any
church.
... I'm a NeoRastaOrthoHasidic DruidiXtian Wiccan. I'm not an oddball.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Come Together
|Date: 19 Mar 96 10:02:13
EID:c8c6 20735040
Re: Come Together:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% J.J. Hitt,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS> I thought Yoko was Jesus Christ and John was the Walrus.
NS> Now I'm all confused again . (G)
JH> You're confused?
I hide it well, don't I? (G)
JH> Sue Armstrong tells us there are such beings as "eggmen" when
JH> all this time I thought it was something the Beatles made up.
I remember eggmen and milkmen and icecreammen and pizzadeliveryguys and
even newspaperboys. The latter had a lot of trouble getting around
when it rained. };) My favorites were the icecreammen.
JH> And speaking of weird British-isms, what in the hell is that
JH> uniform the Lipton Tea Man wears? Do they have "teamen" over
JH> there too?
I haven't any idea, though it is strangely reminescent of Yellow
Submarine to me. And is Sgt. Pepper related to Dr. Pepper?
Ah, they're not what they used to be. John was my favorite, I could
almost kill Hinkley myself for the scar in music history, thanx to him.
As a matter of fact, I like everyone except Paul. I couldn't stand him
when he married rich, when he wrote inane songs with second class
lyrics (true, in comparrisson to John, anyone would look second class),
for his radical stance on vegetarianism, and ESPECIALLY when he fired
that poor crewmember who made the mistake of going to Burger King for
lunch, just because Paul could smell meat on his breath. I miss
Lennon, he had balls, bucks, and a general irrascibility that impressed
me. Too bad he married a guy, though . . . (G)
... Happy as a Raptor in the marketplace. -- Mishearing of Beatles Song
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: George Charity
|Sub: Re: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 19 Mar 96 10:17:03
EID:977d 20735220
Pagan March on DC:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% George Charity,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
GC> Norbert Sykes wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
NS> Pagan March on DC:
NS> 1% Tony Byers, 10% Steve Rose,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
SR> Tony Byers wrote in a message to All:
TB> Place: Washington DC
TB> ****************
TB> Purpose: This is a true grassroots movement that all pagan peoples
TB> are invited to take part in, with the primary purpose being to show
TB> the world that we exist in large numbers. We are all responsible
TB> for our own path, but with a little work on everyone's part, those
TB> paths can cross in Washington DC USA on October 31st 1997.
(Quote by Steve Rose was here that George cut out so he could look
superior. It stated something like: time to barricade the highways,
etc.)
NS> Hmmm . . . why is this? You let a million blacks in, but have a
NS> problem with Pagans? Gee, talk about being persnickety . . .
GC> Blacks weren't "let" into this country, they were forced in to work
GC> for christians who see themselves as "The True God".
Are you this stupid, George? Let me clarify this. Tony Byers (I
believe) made the original post about the Pagan March. Steve Rose
(again, I believe, I don't have the post here to say which posted what,
and will gladly take clarification from either of them as to the
particulars) commented back that he supposed it was time to barricade
the streets or highways around Washington DC. *I* responded to him
with the quote:
NS> Hmmm . . . why is this? You let a million blacks in, but have a
NS> problem with Pagans? Gee, talk about being persnickety . . .
In essence, I was asking why he didn't want a million Pagans into
WASHINGTON DC, when he did allow the Million Black Man March (or however
many there was) into WASHINGTON DC. No mention was made of allowing
blacks into this country or anything of the like. So don't be an idiot.
And next time you quote me, don't cut out parts so you can bend my
meaning. I know the meds make you a bit loggy, but that's no excuse for
doctoring my stuff to make your point, is it?
... George's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Re: HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison
|Date: 19 Mar 96 10:23:58
EID:586d 207352e0
HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% John Oliver,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
>RS> If you haven't sent in your entry or you do not see your name on the
>RS> list [and you know you're feeling left out], then by all means send
me
>RS> your entry!:
>RS> - The Unofficial HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison List -
>RS> User Stance Favorite Poison
>RS> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>RS> The Late J.J. Hitt Death Spell Test Site Sugar-laden teeth rotting
> cola
>RS> Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes' White
>RS> Zinfandel Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
>RS> Steve Quarrella Atheist Creemore Ale or any
> decent porter
>RS> John Prewett Sister Lover/Bitch the blood of Christ
>RS> Don Martin atheist Lagers, porters and ales
> from small breweries
>RS> Preston G. Simpson agnostic Malted battery acid
> (a/k/a Coke)
> The ONE, true fag! High balls!
> (what else?) :)
> Lynda Bustilloz Christian/"catty bitch" Coffee,
> high-octane
> Kath. Wintersnight Witch coffee w\c&s, mead
> Thomas DelCano Pagan Pervert Fresh Menstrual Blood
>RS> Kevin McKenzie Tired Snapple
>MH> Michael Hardy Xian and proud of it 2 parts IBC root
> beer, 1 part cream
> Norbert Sykes Totally self-interested Jolt cola and
> chocolate-covered
> expresso beans
>JO> John Oliver Gay Christian Jolt cola, corn
>JO> nuts and Lawyers
John:
I took the liberty of cleaning up the formatting and forwarding the
list on to Ryan for you. Interesting drink. How do you get the
lawyers to get into the blender? };)
... "Amazing what caffeine and no sense of self-preservation can do..."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: BIG BIRD
|Date: 19 Mar 96 13:40:48
EID:d8a4 20736d00
BIG BIRD:
1% Sean Mccullough, 10% Judith Bandsma,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
SM> Here, Judith!! Have some Haggis!! :-)
JB> If it came down to a choice between escargot and haggis...I'll gladly
JB> take the haggis.
JB> I've stuffed those slimy critters into their shells with the special
JB> butter. Have you ever done that? Had one break open on you while you
JB> were doing it? They are nothing but a slimy skin filled with this
JB> incredibly putrid green goop. Just remembering them is making me want
JB> to throw up.
What I hate is stepping on them on the front porch while barefoot.
Eck.
... "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded." - Obi-Wan
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:16:54
EID:d61e 20737200
A LITTLE HELP FROM SP:
1% Dan Ceppa, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited.
DC> He does??? Why not prove the evidence that your god even exists
DC> before you tell us what you claim your god can do?
JG> I have already dealt with the illogic of demanding physical proof
JG> of a spiritual entity.
. . . so . . . not going to provide it, huh?
... Luke 19:27: Jesus: those who are his enemies are to be murdered.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: ALL
|Sub: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
|Date: 20 Mar 96 21:13:40
EID:50b5 2074a9a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 640df8dd
* Forwarded from "SYSOP"
* Originally by Charles Rollins, 1:279/22
* Originally to Null
* Originally dated 15 Mar 1996, 11:11
-=> Quoting Null to Charles Rollins <=-
Nu> If you have any evidence for this claim that the HOLYSMOKE people
Nu> can't argue intelligently, I'd like to see it. The same goes for any
Nu> evidence you might have that people who use so-called "profanity" in
Nu> general can't argue intelligently, and also that use of so-called
Nu> "profanity" hinders the productivity of an echo. Also I'd like to know
Nu> what exactly consititutes so-called "profanity".
That is just what I mean. Apparently you don't know that study after
study for years has revealed that the use of profanity is proof of a
very limited vocabulary. If they were so intelligent they would have
the knowledge it takes to choose non-profane words which they have
proven they don't. They have used profanity enough to where they are
unable to use other words..they cannot quit..which proves they are a
slave to sin for profanity is sin, they cannot stop nor do they want to
which again shows the limit to their intellect..cussing serves no
purpose than maybe to help vent feelings but just the mere use of the
words stirs up more in the person using it..if you don't know what
profanity is then there is the proof right there.
If you would read my posts and others who are totally able to discuss
without profanity you will see the responses, profanity after profanity,
they don't have the intellect to stop it. That has been proven just by
their posts for years, the same people using the same words, they cannot
quit and if they choose not to quit, they couldn't anyway because that
is the extent of their vocabulary..they cannot discuss things without
cutting people down and insulting them. Profanity has been declared
against the law over the communications lines and any echo who lets it
be practiced should be removed from the backbone.
... He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: MONDO-Tacky
|Date: 20 Mar 96 11:21:04
EID:5521 20745aa0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 640894b7
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314f1783
On Mar 19 15:22 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
PS> I'm awake at night anyway. I'm an insomniac and having to
PS> leave a light on for my rat in an effort to break her
PS> nocturnal noisemaking doesn't help me any.
Is her exercise wheel squeeky or does she play the radio loud?
A thick NON-TOXIC lubricant (like Vasoline) will take care of
the wheel. (If you want to be really high-tech find a teflon
tube that will slip over the axle.)
Nothing can be done about her playing the radio. I don't think
they make headphones that small.
Putting beer in her water bottle might sedate her some, but
then the belching would probably keep you up.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: John Salvi
|Date: 20 Mar 96 11:55:54
EID:345f 20745ee0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6408efa9
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 314dba39
On Mar 18 15:32 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
DM> I have been saying for years that there is no way to
DM> tell a religious belief from any other sort of delusion,
DM> but today it appears that one has turned up.
I read your whole message through twice.
Now maybe it's the fact that my morning caffeen hasn't
kicked in yet, but I couldn't find the above point.
What is the distinguishing characteristic between religious
belief and other delusions? Other than the fact that the
former does tend to get 'special treatment' from judges
and society at large...
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 20 Mar 96 12:29:30
EID:fb28 207463a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64092e57
REPLY: 3:711/933 3149dbdd
On Mar 15 20:42 96, Anthony Grigor-Scott of 3:711/933 wrote:
AG> I manage Bible Believers BBS, and broadcast five weekly
AG> Bible Believers radio programs in addition I attempt to open the
AG> faith to other correspondents in the echoes.
Are these broadcasts limited to Australia? Or are you on
shortwave?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Amnesia
|Date: 20 Mar 96 18:19:28
EID:dfdf 20749260
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 640c66f4
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 14ed827e
On Mar 19 11:31 96, Terry Liberty-Parker of 1:382/804 wrote:
TL>> Armored Personell Vehicle; a
/---------\
/----------------\========================
###### / Waco or bust! )
/------------------------------------------------------\
/ ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
() **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
TL>> to the rest of us.
TL> I'm sure these are meaningful distinctions in a
TL> professionaal or hobby context. In this context, millions
TL> watched, on TV, what they percieved to be
/---------\
/----------------\========================
###### / Waco or bust! )
/------------------------------------------------------\
/ ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
() **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() 's
TL> battering that residence occupied by men, women and children.
TL> Your attempt to shift focus to nitpicking distinctions are
TL> irrelevent in this context. To the average person that
TL> looked like, and went thru the wall like a
/---------\
/----------------\========================
###### / Waco or bust! )
/------------------------------------------------------\
/ ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
() **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
TL> "I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many
TL> women and children and having a big
/---------\
/----------------\========================
###### / Waco or bust! )
/------------------------------------------------------\
/ ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
() **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
TL> coming through the front door. And they penetrated a
TL> room's length or more... This is America. This isn't a
TL> police state. I don't care what they did. I can't see
TL> that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't realize the
/---------\
/----------------\========================
###### / Waco or bust! )
/------------------------------------------------------\
/ ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
() **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
TL> had done that until I was shown by the govenment," she
TL> said.
TL> - Juror at trial of surviving Branch Davidians quoted in
TL> Associated Press story in Mar 1, 1994 Austin
TL> American-Statesman page b3.
TL> Should the
/---------\
/----------------\========================
###### / Waco or bust! )
/------------------------------------------------------\
/ ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
() **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
() ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
TL> drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
TL> they 'were just following orders?'
Tanks alot...
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Philosophy
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:34:57
EID:cf8c 20737440
MSGID: 1:352/266 314F609D
MM>But when does one persons right to have fun begin to tresspass on
MM>anothers territory?
KM> When he begins to harm the other person. Harm, alas, is a nebulous
KM> word, so I can't give a specific place. It's a situational and
KM> personalthing, unfortunately.
so, does the one being harmed make the distinction, or the one doing the
act? I always hope those who feel harmed by me will discuss the area with
me so that I can be aware of their feelings. Not that I will always equate
hurt with harm. Sometimes to let a friend know where they have upset you
will cause them hurt, but seldom harm.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Colors
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:39:17
EID:f93f 207374e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 314F609E
DC> Nope, not at all. There are far more exacting tests that can
DC> be performed to demostrate the existance of the perception
DC> of color.
These tests, however are part of modern technology. At one time the determination
of color depended on visual perception. Could there not now be qualities
that are beyond our technological ability to measure or even detect? I
don't say those things are possitives either way.. they're ... maybes.
DC> The thing is, it is demonstratable, even to a blind person.
Without technology? How would you demonstrate color to a blind from birth
person?
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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PATH: 352/266 600 138/380 146 270/101 218/801
|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
|Date: 21 Mar 96 10:57:40
EID:7eb8 20755720
MSGID: 1:123/67 31513673
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 640df8dd
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
20 Mar 96 21:13, quoting Martin Goldberg to ALL:
MG> * Forwarded from "SYSOP"
MG> * Originally by Charles Rollins, 1:279/22
MG> That is just what I mean. Apparently you don't know that study after
MG> study for years has revealed that the use of profanity is proof of a
MG> very limited vocabulary.
MG> ... He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love.
I saw this . There are several fundies in this echo. I guess I will
have to start posting there, eh?
|blue|
| () | Join the Blue Ribbon Anti-Censorship Campaign!
| /\ | http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: All
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 21 Mar 96 12:38:00
EID:17f0 207564c0
PID: RA 2.5.g1 22754
MSGID: 1:123/318 56efeb5a
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
I see where Farrakhan has been brought before the Knesset, USA. It ¨appears
that the Jews are trying to crucify him. Well, that's ¨nothing new. He
needs to join with the militia, and declare ¨economic war against the Establishment.
United we stand, divided we fall.
---
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: ryan shaw
|To: Ted Hollingshead
|Sub: Conference
|Date: 21 Mar 96 01:19:32
EID:87cd 20750a60
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 150f5300
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Ted Hollingshead spewed forth the following All:
TH> Is this a religion conference or a chat conference?
Some people like to think it is a religious debate conference. For the
most part however, it's where we all come to be disgusted by religions [and
the followers of them].
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: ANGELS...
|Date: 20 Mar 96 18:03:00
EID:03e8 20749060
-=> Quoting Dawn Kleuser to J.j. Hitt <=-
DK> ... (singing) I LOVE ANGELS, YES I DO, I LOVE ANGELS, HOW BOUT YOU?...
Baked or boiled or in a stew.
But don't forget to pluck those wings,
'Cuz when you tend to chew a few,
They stick your gums, and that stings.
(For the writers out there...yes, I know my meter doesn't scan properly)
... What's all this fuss about endangered feces?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: CONVERSATION CHOICES
|Date: 20 Mar 96 18:07:00
EID:5fda 207490e0
-=> Quoting Dawn Kleuser to Judith Bandsma <=-
DK> No, unfotunately, I did not, because I didn't know to... too late for
DK> that now!
No, no dear, what I meant was that the mistake you made here, you won't
make elsewhere, will you? That's what I mean about learning from your
mistakes.
BTW, the last part...with the 'sorry'...that's a tagline, not an apology.
Only the fundiest of fundies comments on taglines other than to say
'stolen'.
... Smoreplay is what Smurfs do before Smucking.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Ted Hollingshead
|Sub: CONFERENCE
|Date: 20 Mar 96 19:22:00
EID:cfd1 20749ac0
-=> Quoting Ted Hollingshead to All <=-
TH> Is this a religion conference or a chat conference?
Neither.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 21 Mar 96 12:56:45
EID:6036 20756700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3151984a
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314f177f
DW> A talking penis takes some of the pleasure out of masturbation,
DW> doesn't it? What if it wants to cuddle afterwards? :)
PS> What if it wants you to take it to a movie first, or feed it a nice
PS> meal?
Taking it to a "movie" is what gets you into that situation
in the first place.
... Guinness: It's Not Just For Breakfast Anymore!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: WACO WEB SITE
|Date: 21 Mar 96 12:56:45
EID:6ccb 20756700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3151984b
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 640349bd
AH> Oprah was a local reporter here in Baltimore, too. Nick
AH> Charles, John Saunders, and Gayle Gardner all did sports
AH> here before going national.
JH> I thought growing up in DC with Warner Wolf and Wilard Scott
JH> was bad enough.
"Let's go to the videotape! Swish, nothing but net!"
JH> (Wilard Scott, by the way, was the orginal Ronald McDonald.
JH> McDonald's paid him a couple of hundred dollars for the idea
JH> and told him to fuck off. As obnoxious as I find the man, I
JH> still think he got a raw deal.)
What was it Bryant Gumbel referred to him as--a "motherfucker",
I believe?
... That's bullshit. You're a white suburban punk--just like me.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 21 Mar 96 12:56:46
EID:2e60 20756700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3151984c
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6403dd15
JH> On Mar 18 04:58 96, Larry Bevard of 1:3615/51 wrote:
LB> So when God kills, or orders others to kill, it is to protect
LB> His people and advance the world, when we kill it is usually
LB> because of selfishness.
JH> Ahhh....
JH> When God kills it is to further His own interests.
JH> When a human kills it to further their own interests.
JH> Thank you, the difference is much clearer now.
Good one.
... Cannibalism: see Eucharist (from Diderot's Encyclopedia)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Christanic ritual canabilism
|Date: 21 Mar 96 12:56:49
EID:8146 20756700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31519856
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 314f46f5
RJ> ...okay, well maybe not _that_ extreme.
LB> hehe.
LB> Maybe you should suggest attending church on the first date. If she
LB> runs away screaming, she might be the girl for you. Of course, then
you
Oy, but what a Catch-22! I'd have to say the one thing that'll
drive her away and me toward her. How...Sartrian.
LB> have the problem of convincing her you aren't psychotic....
Oh, try as I might, I can't convince anyone _of_ being psycho,
but "you're weird" is a snap diagnosis I can't seem to shake off.
... I always wake up at the crack of ice.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 21 Mar 96 12:56:51
EID:3bcb 20756700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3151985c
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Judith Bandsma <=-
RB> Thanks Judith. BTW, I LOVE your belly button and would you care to
go
RB> out for some quiche and maybe a little dancing?
JB>
JB> DANCING???? What kind of a girl do you think I am? Can't we just
JB> fuck instead?
Jeez! Those Baptists got to you, didn't they?
... Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 21 Mar 96 12:56:51
EID:e5c4 20756700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3151985d
JB> From what I've read, the women warriors were fairly well feared by
JB> their male counterparts. Something to do with the trophies they
JB> took.
I wonder what Freud would say about that? A bit of envy
taken to extremes, perhaps?
... * Origin: MESSIAH! NETWORK: Killing People For Fun and Prophet!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Waco Amnesia
|Date: 21 Mar 96 12:56:51
EID:406c 20756700
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3151985e
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 640c66f4
JH> /---------\
JH> /----------------\========================
JH> ###### / Waco or bust! )
JH> /------------------------------------------------------\
JH> / ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
JH> () ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
JH> () **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
JH> () ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
JH> ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
TL> drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
TL> they 'were just following orders?'
JH> Tanks alot...
Good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I scrolled through
this and got to the end. Fortunately I had plenty of bloody
phlegm to hock up, and that stuff's sort of icky-globby enough
you can mop it all off the monitor easily.
I really need to stop smoking these cheapo cigarettes. I should
have known better just by the name, "Asphalt & Lead Paint Chips".
... But my assault rifle IS for sport! I use it to hunt BATF agents.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KENNETH MCABEE
|Sub: Kenneth the neo-atheist
|Date: 18 Mar 96 16:05:00
EID:dcaf 207280a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to David Rice <=-
>>>>KM> There are no other gods.
>>>DR> What a stupid thing to say. Do you have any evidence
>>>DR> that the gods do not exist?
>>KM> The Bible.
>DR> The Bible mentions dozens. Why do you enjoy shooting
>DR> yourself in the foot?
KM> And which one does it call the only True[sic] God[sic]?
Irelevant.
>>>>KM> There is only One[sic] True[sic] God[sic], [....]
>>>DR> That's exactly what I said: you are very nearly atheist
>>>DR> because there are many hundreds of thousands of gods you
>>>DR> lack belief in. You are merely one or two gods away from
>>>DR> total atheism.
>>KM> There is but one God[sic].
>DR> Your paper idol (the Bible) says otherwise.
>DR> Now then, neo-atheist: why have you refused to answer the
>DR> question I have asked of you? Why have you, in your pride
>DR> and rebellion, dismissed so many gods, and yet hold on to
>DR> a few others (Yahweh, Satan, Jesus, Lucifer)? You lack a
>DR> belief in the hundreds of thousands of other gods-+-- why
>DR> believe in the others?
KM> Sorry David, but Lucifer aka Satan was never a god,
Satan is not "also known as" Lucifer. Satan is a totally
different god than Lucifer, with his own aspects and
attributes (to use the technical terms).
KM> that was his problem, he thought he was.
Funny how you give your gods thoughts.
KM> I don't believe in hundreds of thousands of other gods,
KM> because the don't exist.
In other words, you lack belief in them. Ergo, you're atheist.
KM> God in the Bible, the one that sent his Son[sic] to die
KM> on a cross for all our sins, does exist and always has.
Since there exists no more evidence for that freaky claim as
there is evidence that god's sons Hercules and Perseus (among
other sons of god) exists.
Hince my question: you are an atheist, and yet to still
cling to the Christian gods. How is it you deny so many of
the gods, and not deny the other gods?
KM> No pride, not rebellion, just following the truth of the
KM> Bible, there is only One[sic] True[sic] God[sic],
I.e. you're a neo-atheist. You lack belief in the hundreds of
thousands of gods that exist.
KM> and there has only been One[sic], not two, not three, not
KM> a few, only One[sic].
In actual FACT, there are so many gods, one would be hard
pressed to list them all.
... "God never intended Christians to be fools." -- "Kato"
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEVIN D. MCKENZIE
|Sub: 'american 'athiest''
|Date: 19 Mar 96 08:49:00
EID:9718 20734620
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to David Rice <=-
>DR> Apparently the National "Pro-Life" Association has set
>DR> up a page on the Web calling themselves "American
>DR> Athiests", masquerading as "American Atheists" under
>DR> a deliberate misspelling of "atheist" into "athiest"
>DR> (so as not to be sued, no doubt). It takes you to their
>DR> Life Link Central: picture of a fetus [actually:
>DR> miscarriage] with anti-abortion propaganda.
Maybe the cult believes that only atheists get abortions.
KDM> Something the *real* Atheists can't deal with because,
KDM> with the disappearance of the O'Hairs, they are apparently
KDM> no longer active on the internet. Sons of bitches.
It no longer surprises me that Christian cults use lies and
deceit to further their agenda. As far as I can tell, they
must believe that no amount of deception is too great when
they believe their gods approve.
... Bosnian Bumpersticker: Religion Stopped 25,000 Beating Hearts!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: LARRY BEVARD
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:59:00
EID:309a 20735f60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to David Rice <=-
>DR> FACT #1: no one knows what Jesus may have said, since
>DR> he left no writings and there are no known
>DR> records of what he might have said that were
>DR> written by witnesses.
LB> Upon greatest authority, both Christian and secular, the
LB> letters as recorded in the New Testement are shown to be
LB> authentic and at least Half of them, with no dispute, was
LB> written by the people that we Christians say they were
LB> written by, Paul, John, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew, Mark,
LB> all witnesses to the life, death and risen life of Jesus.
You are being silly.
1) Saul of Tarsus ("Paul") never met Jesus.
2) The authors of _Matthew,_ _Luke,_ _John,_ and
_Mark_ are unknown: they are anonimous works,
written by people who never met Jesus because
they were not alive at the time. The best one
may say is that one of two of them were writen
by followers of a deciple.
3) Your "greatest authority" is bullshit.
>DR> FACT #2: Jesus had no notion of what a Christian is,
>DR> since the cult wasn't started unill several
>DR> hundred years after he was stoned to death.
LB> Joke right?
I said nothing about your face.
LB> Jesus was hung on a Cross[sic].
There is no evidence for such a claim.
LB> And as far as a Church being started, the Christian
LB> moment started 10 days after Jesus assended into Heaven
Since people do not "assend into heaven," and since there are
Christians in the world, your statement is self-contradictory.
LB> which is 50 days after He[sic] had died and risen. Within
LB> 20 years, there were Christians in every major city of
LB> the Roman Empire.
You have a real freaky idea of what "Christianity" is. The
followers of Jesus, up until about 200CE, could AT BEST be
called "Messianic Jews." Christianity came along much latter.
>DR>FACT #3: Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity:
>DR> the reprobate Saul of Tarsus created it.
LB> Saul of Tarsus expanded and defind the Chruch into other,
LB> Non-jewish areas. As far as creating it, as I said above,
LB> it was created 50 days after Jesus died and rose again.
Since Jesus didn't "rise again," and since Christianity
exists, your assertion is self-contradictory.
>JG> the definition christian[sic] includes a "follower of the
>JG> teachings of jesus[sic] christ[sic]".
>DR> Since there never was a "Jesus Christ," there cannot be,
>DR> by your definition, Christians. Since there =ARE= Christians,
>DR> your definition is DEMONSTATED false.
LB> Jesus the Christ (or Choosen[sic] One[sic]) is a historic
LB> fact.
Have you any evidence of that silly claim? I've yet to ever
hear of ANY evidence that a "Jesus Christ" lived.
LB> The Followers of Jesus were originally refered to as
LB> Followers of The Way. Later they became know as Christians,
LB> i.e. followers of Christ.
Hundreds of years later.
>JG> And in a christian[sic] country the label "christian" is
>JG> indeed useless because it is used as a social enhancement.
>DR> A Christian is anyone who professes to be a Christian.
>DR> There is no other known test for Christianhood.
LB> Getting back to the original comment, we can know a
LB> Christian by the way he acts.
Since Christians disagree with you, your assertion is false.
LB> If he acts in a way that follows the teachings of the
LB> Bible and what Christ would do, then we can be sure he
LB> is Christian.
Since hundreds of thousands of Christians call other hundreds
of thousands of Christians "not real true Christians," your
silly assertion is demonstrated false.
LB> That is the test.
The only test for Christianhood is to ask someone if she or
he is a Christian.
LB> But, you are correct in that until we know a person, if
LB> he states he is a Christian, then we would have to accept
LB> that and expect him to act as a Christian.
Some Christians butcher people, and other Christians do not.
Yet they are both Christians. Therefore your assertion is
false.
LB> But, if he fails to act the part, the we can question if
LB> he is truly Christian.
It is not for you to "question" any such thing.
Now then. Don't you feel like a real stupid shit (again)?
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 19 Mar 96 16:20:00
EID:eb1d 20738280
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Rice <=-
-> On 03-12-96 11:43, David Rice got back to All
>DR> I plan on buying a 32-foot boat, rigging it with extra stout
>DR> stays and shrouds, fit it with solar cells and electric
DC> You bastard!
So mother always told me.
>DR> In all, sounds like a stupid, dangerous thing to do,
>DR> don't it?
DC> You bastard!
Stupid bastard, at that.
>DR> peoples. I've read that the Polynesian girls here (and I do
>DR> mean GIRLS) offer themselves to lonely European sailors such
DC> You bastard!
I have read one first-hand account, so I know of at least one
island to avoid. Two weeks ago I purchased three handbooks on
various South Pacific island groups--- they should tell me of
the other islands to avoid.
>DR> considered socially desirable. (Don Martin, eat your liver
>DR> out!) I'll be sure to avoid this area like the plague.
DC> You idiot!
A safe and sane idiot. My will-power is nonexistant.
>DR> Oh yeah: one minor problem--- I don't have a boat.
DC> You idiot!
A poor idiot, at that.
>DR> Not that it matters at all, but I've never done such a thing
>DR> before, and I'll probably die from drowning. But what the
>DR> fuck.
DC> You missed out on that when you avoided Tahiti like the
DC> plague!
I'll bring lots of rum to deaden the pain.
DC> Have fun! Just wish I was going with you... Then again,
DC> my 14' C-Lark has the fittings ready to tow a beer barge
DC> to Australia. Maybe Sue Armstrong is ready to go.
There's nothing in Austrailia worth seeing. Hell, Mister
Laurie Appleton exists there!
In a few months I'll be advertising for a sailing partner. I
cannot afford all of the equipment I'll need, if I buy a boat.
Any woman will do--- I've asked several already.
... "And the inspiration for the vagina was...?" -- Steve Q
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: RYAN SHAW
|Sub: 'American 'Athiest''
|Date: 19 Mar 96 16:26:00
EID:ed02 20738340
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to David Rice <=-
>DR> Apparently the National "Pro-Life" Association has set
>DR> up a page on the Web calling themselves "American
>DR> Athiests", masquerading as "American Atheists" under
>DR> a deliberate misspelling of "atheist" into "athiest"
>DR> (so as not to be sued, no doubt). It takes you to their
>DR> Life Link Central: picture of a fetus [actually:
>DR> miscarriage] with anti-abortion propaganda.
RS> Do you have the URL for this?
No, alas. Nor do I want it--- I'm enraged at their deceptions
enough.
... "Equal time for astrology in astronomy class!" -- Creationist redux
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: RYAN SHAW
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 19 Mar 96 16:33:00
EID:2bbb 20738420
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to David Rice <=-
>DR> I plan on buying a 32-foot boat, rigging it with extra
>DR> stout stays and shrouds, fit it with solar cells and
>DR> electric auto-pilot, and sail to Honolulu. From Hawaii
>DR> to Maui, then on to
RS> Hopefully you mean Guinness Extra Stout. ;)
Rum. Lots of rum. One must have something to cut the taste of
coconut milk.
For the natives I'm bringing cigars.
... "God never intended Christians to be fools." -- "Kato"
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 21 Mar 96 16:01:20
EID:1048 20758020
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3151c3a3
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Judith Bandsma YOUR DAILY MURDER wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> You know he'll find some way to discount them, or say that men did the
PS> actual leading, or some similar bullshit.
JB> From what I've read, the women warriors were fairly well feared by
JB> their male counterparts. Something to do with the trophies they
JB> took.
Enough to take the fight out of any man, cutting his work out for him like
that.
... "Bother," said Pooh, as his bungie cord broke.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: MONDO-Tacky
|Date: 21 Mar 96 16:01:21
EID:3fc6 20758020
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3151c3a4
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh J.J. Hitt MONDO-Tacky wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JH> Is her exercise wheel squeeky or does she play the radio loud?
Neither. She doesn't play on her exercise wheel and I've got the only
headphones for the radio, which I leave plugged in at all times.
JH> A thick NON-TOXIC lubricant (like Vasoline) will take care of
JH> the wheel. (If you want to be really high-tech find a teflon
JH> tube that will slip over the axle.)
Super science. Ain't it grand?
JH> Nothing can be done about her playing the radio. I don't think
JH> they make headphones that small.
I could at least get her to listen to soothing, relaxing music, but that
would probably drive me batty anyway.
JH> Putting beer in her water bottle might sedate her some, but
JH> then the belching would probably keep you up.
Possibly. She scurries around in her cage a lot, trying to escape. I had
a piece of cloth over a hole in the top of her cage, until I found out
that she was climbing the water bottle to get to the hole and chewing her
way through the cloth. The cloth has since been replaced with a brick,
and so she's given up on that route.
... Famous last words: "I think the dragon's asleep."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A New List! - Michael Hardy
|Date: 16 Mar 96 22:11:33
EID:63f5 2070b160
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314b3cc1
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63c70116
15 Mar 96 11:57, J.J. Hitt wrote to Becke Jones:
MH>>> Even you can't hold a discussion without resorting
MH>>> to name-calling. Somehow I had thought you were above that
MH>>> sort of thing. Silly me.
BJ>> Awwww... did wittwe Mikey get his feewings hurt?
BJ>> If you weren't such a bonehead, Hardly, people wouldn't
BJ>> feel they had to use hammers to get through to you.
JH> "Names" to call Michael Hardy:
JH> Contributor Labeled Hardy:
JH> Judisth Bandsma stupid
JH> Backe Jones bonehead
JH> J.J. Hitt Prima Donna
Becke forwarded the above message to Mikey. *I* called him a bonehead.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 16 Mar 96 22:16:35
EID:fa0e 2070b200
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314b3dd4
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3149a95b
15 Mar 96 11:32, Don Martin wrote to Mark Barnett:
DM>> Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
DM>> evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
DM>> tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic
DM>> particles or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the
DM>> existence of enormous gravitational forces only explicable by
DM>> the presence of a black hole.
MB>> Well I can agree on that and thank you for this post I told a
MB>> Preacher freind of mine about this to night at his church and he
MB>> said that our argument was for nought that the stratum had been
MB>> found but that the non-belivers had hid the evidence so as not to
MB>> prove the Bible.
Really? Do me a favor and ask your preacher friend exactly how the unbelievers
managed to hide this stratum. Be sure to get back to me with this information
- I am intensely curious about this.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 16 Mar 96 21:41:22
EID:ce6e 2070ad20
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314b365c
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3149a95e
15 Mar 96 13:29, Don Martin wrote to Rob Burcham:
DM> A point about beaming people up: "storing the
DM> information describing the identity and location of every
DM> particle in a human being would require 10^28 kilobytes of
DM> memory. In comparison, the information in every book every
DM> written would take up only 10^12 kilobytes."
Maybe we should move this to some goofy Trek echo, but I do have a point
to make. Considering the exponential growth of storage capacity over the
last few decades, the above will likely not be much of an impediment to
matter/energy transport. Noise and simple data errors, however, will be.
I like my pancreas just as it is now, and see no need in taking the chance
of having atoms from my heart (or anywhere else, for that matter), inserted
into it at random.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 16 Mar 96 22:13:47
EID:3bc1 2070b1a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314b3d93
REPLY: 1:252/107 3149c2e9
15 Mar 96 19:20, Selena Kerr wrote to All:
SK> Hey all! Is anyone familiar with the predictions of M. Nostradamus?
SK> I have recently read that the world is supposed to end by nuclear war
SK> at the end of the year 1999. This seems to coincide with the bible,
SK> doesn't it? I am not very familiar with the bible. There are a few
SK> things that Nostradamus predicted that have already come true, so I
SK> guess the end is inevitable?
Yes, Selena, the world will end at 11:59 pm on December 31st, 1999. How
do I know, you ask? Because I'm the guy with his finger on the button up
here in Cheyenne Mountain.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Us bans abortionspeak
|Date: 16 Mar 96 21:50:31
EID:e64f 2070ae40
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314b37f5
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 149b8ae0
15 Mar 96 12:23, Terry Liber