God Damned Fundies!
|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A Fair & Just God [2]
|Date: 19 Mar 96 06:47:01
EID:c0fd 207335e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 9aae976c
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DA174
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> And your response against Hitler would have been...?
AS> Especially if you had lived in say, France or Poland, as
AS> Germany was threatening them? Or if you had been Jewish in
AS> Germany? Would you have been a martyr, or would you have
AS> fought back? And would you have approved or disapproved of
AS> resistance efforts against the Germans no matter what your
AS> personal decision?
I might well have been one of those who hid Jews in my attic,
or had a pipeline to the underground that hastened Jews out of
the country before the authorities could find them. I might
also have been a person who merely spoke out against the way
Jews were being treated -- probably at my own peril.
MB> The Christophers said it well:
MB> It is better to light one little candle than
MB> to curse the darkness.
MB> Amen.
AS> It speaks very well of you, Marilyn, even if I think there
AS> are some inconsistencies in that position, to take that
AS> stance. Speaking for myself, my pacifism is far more limited.
There are no inconsistencies that I can see. I've explained to you
those elements that you THOUGHT were inconsistent, and they have
been shown to be otherwise.
Most people's so-called pacifism is hardly that; it is more akin
to plain, old-fashioned situational ethics. It is, however, hard
for them to call it by its rightful name if they are Christians,
because they themselves have painted themselves into a corner
where they cannot use that word when referring to themselves. They
have made the term too pejorative.
... Confession is good for the soul but bad for your career.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 19 Mar 96 06:52:19
EID:883b 20733680
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d462982f
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DA408
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> Indeed not. (Although He may have been one for a while, if my beliefs
AS> are right...a descent into humanness.)
MB> No, but he apparently, in your view, holds us to a higher standard
MB> than he holds himself, and that is the issue. He tells us not to
MB> kill, yet he commits wholesale slaughter of human beings himself,
MB> just because he's pissed at the way they choose to worship.
AS> He holds us to a DIFFERENT standard than He holds Himself, no
AS> question. And your charge is untrue; He did not do wholesale
AS> slaughter against the Egyptians for worshipping Osiris and
AS> Anubis, etc., but for keeping His people prisoner (and doing
AS> so for centuries...how many Jews died in hard labor) despite
AS> the close proximity of the Hebrews and the Egyptians.
Nice selective memory you've got there, Al. HE HARDENED PHAROAH'S
HEART SO HE COULDN'T RELEASE THE HEBREWS! So even here his
culpability is apparent.
AS> Paul in Romans speaks of "good works" and "conscience" being
AS> a pagan's spokesman before the Lord, so the fact that they
AS> are pagan (which, by definition, would believe in other gods
AS> than Himself) thus arguing that even a pagan can make
AS> presentations to the Lord and possibly be saved.
Sure, if Jehovah doesn't zap 'em first.
AS> When the Jews were in captivity, there was no talk about
AS> destroying the Babylonians for worshipping Marduk, Nabu, etc.
AS> Paul admit the pagan gods are fictions and one can eat meat
AS> sacrificed to idols as long as it doesn't lead others astray,
AS> being sacrificed to literally nothing.
Yeah. Like all those Christian martyrs who sacrificed themselves to a
god that didn't know right from wrong.
AS> Imagine for a minute, a God's eye view. Omniscient, so able
AS> to hear and see every second of the obscenity of an innocent
AS> child being shoved into an idol's furnace, the screams, the
AS> fire crisping their skins.
More double standard. Remember hell for eternity?
AS> Imagine seeing this time and time again. And being sacrificed
AS> to literally NOTHING...a god that doesn't exist! Of being
AS> omnipotent, but bound by His own principles not to intervene
AS> directly, lest the sheer force of His response rob humans of
AS> their free will.
AS> But if others follow Him of THEIR free will...is it any
AS> wonder He led them to a land where such was being practiced?
AS> Is it any wonder He used them to stop it, and help stop it
AS> for all time? No, I cannot prove the Midianites did the rites
AS> of Molech...yet they were Baal-worshippers, and the two often
AS> went together.
The Bible merely says he was outraged at their choice of a god
to worship. Big fucking deal! They followed their consciences
and culture. IMAGINE THAT!
MB> THAT is the issue. In other words, he sends us to hell for
MB> eternity for deeds that he commits with impunity.
AS> Ahhh, but there is another issue here. Remember, in terms of
AS> the Judeo-Christianic frame, death entered the world not
AS> through God's will, but against God's express orders. In
AS> other words, all death is a result of what happened in the
AS> Garden of Eden. "If you eat thereof, you shall surely die."
Yup. He sentenced EVERYBODY to death because two people actually
had the cajones to LEARN! You can have 'im. He's a cretin.
AS> There was a clear warning there, which was ignored. Is death
AS> the result of God (given the Biblical frame) or of Man's
AS> disobedience to God?
Yup. They disobeyed and LEARNED.
MB> That is the ultimate hypocracy -- especially since he has so
MB> many more choices than we do, being omni-* and all.
AS> Ahh, and if He chooses to respect OUR choices, even when it
AS> comes to things like death?
He invented death. Remember? That on his head, too.
AS> ... I plead temporary sanity.
I can understand why.
... Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.- Randi
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Revelation
|Sub: Prophecy
|Date: 14 Mar 96 21:44:32
EID:2cf4 206ead80
MSGID: 3:711/933 314895cb
REPLY: 1:123/610.0 3142279d
Dear LACK of Revelation,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
R> Beware the Jew is the child of the Devil, and he belongs to the
R> Synagogue of Satan -- jn.8:44, rv.2:9,3:9.
Leaving aside the self-styled Khazar `Jews' and compound revelations of
Scripture, John 8:44 in the first sense, is unrelated to Revelation 2:9
and 3:9. Whereas John 8:44 refers to a bunch of Jews who weren't in any
way Spiritual, Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 refers to those who claimed to be
the Church of Jesus Christ, God's elected and called-out, or the chosen
people as the Jews once were. Although this verse uses the word `Jews'
this is metaphorical. Jesus was a Jew (i.e. of the Tribe of Judah), and
therefore those who claimed to be Jews were seeking a pre-eminence over
the flock.
Before you proceed in attempting to make yourself a prophet, interpret-
ing His Word, you should check out ther late Wiliam Branham who was the
last Word prophet to the Gentiles.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: John Passaniti
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 15 Mar 96 20:42:34
EID:b8a8 206fa540
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149dbdd
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 230b46a0
Dear John Passaniti,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
JP> it isn't very fair to say there are no contradictions because ...
JP> there are over 3000 denominations
And not a single one of them is Christian. Know you not that denominations
are not of God? That denominationalism is Spiritual fornication and that
are ultimately the anti-Christ and cast into the Lake of Fire.
JP> these have different interpretations of the same scripture you read
What is the name of the prophet who gave them their interpretation? God
is
His own interpreter Who interprets His Word by bringing It to pass, or
by sending a prophet. The Bible was sealed during the denominational days
and
Christ was a Mediator BECAUSE of ERROR (or carnal interpretation). Since
the Seven Seals have been opened, the mystery of God is finished and God's
been calling His people out from EVERY denomination into oneness with the
Word for the manifestation of the Sons of God and the translation. Read
Matthew 25:1-13 and Revelation 18:4.
JP> if you define a world where inconsistencies in scripture simply don't
JP> exist as a matter of faith, then yes, you can indeed claim there are
JP> no inconsistencies.
Only someone _without_ faith can imagine any inconsistencies in the Word
of God. `Faith' is a clear understanding of the written Word. It is the
mind of God in you.
JP> If I honestly believed something, I would do my best to express
JP> my faith in terms that others outside my faith could understand.
Only the elect can receive the faith. Or as Jesus said, `My sheep receive
My Word, a stranger they will NOT follow'. That lets the denominations out
of the Gospel Net. All of them.
JP> You don't seem to make that effort. Instead, you sit at your
JP> keyboard and offer us nothing but an expression of your faith, hoping
JP> that there is some resonance in others.
I also pastor a tiny Church, moderate BIBLE_BELIEVERS echo, I manage Bible
Believers BBS, and broadcast five weekly Bible Believers radio programs
in
addition I attempt to open the faith to other correspondents in the echoes.
However there can _only_ be a `resonance in others' _if_ they are elected.
JP> What is your purpose in this forum? How do your words meet your
JP> purpose?
Read the above.
JP> God demands you kill me.
You seem to be managing quite well without help.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Fear of God 2/2
|Date: 15 Mar 96 21:16:22
EID:083f 206faa00
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149e095
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31439376
Dear David Worrell,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I can't quite see your point in publishing this story of pathetic ignorance
when you apparently now realize it is evil superstition.
Surely it would be more profitable for you to seek and apprehend
the Absolute, and more postitive to share That in this dark world.
As it is, you appear to have graduated as an exemplary product of
Roman Catholicism, led by the god they serve.
There is a truth. You should seek It instead of closing the door,
saying, `there is no light', and resigning yourself to darkness.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 1
|Date: 15 Mar 96 21:27:58
EID:722d 206fab60
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149e5cc
Dear Becke Jones,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you actually believe what you are posting? I've only read a couple of
paragraphs and some of it is patent dishonesty. You appear to have fallen
for the oldest ploy of the greatest sophist. Why do you halt between two
schools of error - (so-called) creationists and evolutionists?
BJ> Creationism is, for all practical purposes, an assault upon the
BJ> integrity of nearly every physical science and in order to cope
BJ> effectively with such organizations as the Institute for Creation
BJ> Research one would have to become quite knowledgable with respect to
BJ> geology, paleontology, anthropology, astronomy, biology, archeology,
BJ> physics, chemistry, and other physical sciences.
You just haven't read the Bible with understanding, and certainly haven't
sought to understand evolution. It's evolution that denies these physical
sciences (many of which are NOT sciences but implausible theories).
The story of creation you've written is an absurd misunderstanding of the
Genesis account. If you bother to study the Genesis account you will see
there is a vast difference between the words `bara', `asah' and `yatsar',
that Adam was formed before the animals, and that the earth was not `made
in seven days' but `in the beginning', when _time_ began.
BJ> If Adam was created on the sixth day approximately 6,000 years ago
If you read Genesis 2 you will find there was _no_ man or animal on earth
unto the seventh day. You must make an effort to study and understand the
work you are trying so hard to ridicule.
BJ> Prehistoric man would be fictitious.
Indeed he _is_ ficticious.
BJ> the third chapter of Luke also supports belief in a very young earth.
Oh no it does _not_ The very first verse of Scripture, Genesis 1:1, tells
us that the earth is as old as time itself. School kids are smart enough
to tell you it is trillions or billions of years old. You just have not
tried to study the Book independently of the crass thoughts of religionists
BJ> If each man had lived
BJ> approximately 100 years, then the world would be no more than
BJ> 9,694 (7,700 + 1994) years old. If each of Jesus' ancestors had
BJ> lived to be 1,000 years old (an age not even reached by
BJ> Methuselah), the earth would still only be 78,894 (77,000 + 1994)
BJ> years old according to creationists.
BJ> (10) "And to every beast of the earth, and every fowl of the air, and
BJ> to every thing that creepeth upon the earth wherein there is a life,
I
BJ> have given every green herb for meat: and it was so." (Gen 1:30)
BJ> Carnivorous beasts and fowl do not eat green herbs.
BJ> (11) "And God saw everything that he had made..." (Gen 1:31) and "on
BJ> the seventh day God ended his work" (Gen 2:2)
BJ> Scientifically speaking, unless God male organs or attributes,
it
BJ> is difficult to see how God could be masculine.
BJ> (12) "And out of the ground the Lord formed every beast o the field,
BJ> and every fowl of the air; and brought them to Adam to see what he
BJ> would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature,
BJ> that was the name thereof" (Gen. 2:19)
BJ> Enviornmentally speaking, how could every living creature be
BJ> brought to the Middle East or elsewhere without many animals
BJ> dying because of climatic changes and other factors? Unless
BJ> divine intervention takes place and that concept removes it from
BJ> scientific consideration, as it can never be falsified or tested.
BJ> (13) "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done
BJ> this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the
BJ> field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt eat all the days
BJ> of thy life." (Gen. 3:14)
BJ> If the serpent was a snake, snake-like, or reptilian in
BJ> character, and condemned to crawl upon it's belly, how did it move
BJ> before? And does science know of any serpent who eats dust?
BJ> (more to come--see next part)
BJ> ... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
BJ> * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 150
BJ> * Silver Xpress V4.01
BJ> -+- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
BJ> + Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 15 Mar 96 22:04:22
EID:23fd 206fb080
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149eaee
Dear Becke Jones,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
BJ> I have an extensive list that I could post here.
It is possible to buy books of supposed Bible contradictions but that does
not make them contradictions. It means only that the compiler is without
understanding. the most notable are written by the Jews.
BJ> If I take the time and trouble to do so, will you at least look it
BJ> over and comment
Yes, but don't give me too many. I do not know all things and the purpose
of the exercise should be to demonstrate that the only contradiction is
in the mind of the author and then only because he is ignorant of his subject.
BJ> or will you go running as the typical fundie would?
What you call a `typical fundie' is is in fact a non-Christian who is fundamentally
contrary to the most basic scriptures.
BJ> ... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
Self praise is no recommendation.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 15 Mar 96 22:11:42
EID:a007 206fb160
MSGID: 3:711/933 3149ec42
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63966ab0
Dear Martin Goldberg,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
MG> (which first--beasts or man?)
Man was formed before the beast. Were you an Hebrew and an Israelite rather
than a Gentile Jew-impersonater you'd distinguish between `bara', `asah',
and `yatsar'.
As you have demonstrated, there is no contradiction in the Bible. However,
you have been able to display your ego, ignorance of Hebrew and unbelief
in
the Word of God.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 16 Mar 96 00:02:28
EID:a007 20700040
MSGID: 3:711/933 314a0614
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63966ed0
Dear Martin Goldberg,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
MG> Num.12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men
MG> which were upon the fact of the earth."
MG> Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto
MG> them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill
MG> every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But
MG> all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."
MG> ==================================================================
There is no contradiction in these two statements. Your problem is unbelief
and laziness in not looking up the Hebrew. Moses was `meek' meaning he
was
under pre-eminence to God's Word and humbled his mind to the will of God.
Your Bible contradictions are quite childish and dishonest. You are not
a seeker of truth.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Baha'i 1/2
|Date: 17 Mar 96 23:34:00
EID:e552 2071bc40
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14e2c221
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Lynda.
Looks like another of my notes actually made it out. I wonder if Al saw
it.
AS> don't argue at the same length for any of the other miracles...water
AS> into wine, walking on water, the loaves and the fishes, the healing
of
AS> lepers...because they are comparitively irrelevant.
RM> Water into wine, for instance, really does smack of parlour tricks.
RM> What's the point?
LB> AFAIK, the purpose of miracles is to show the handiwork of God
LB> directly -- God revealing himself without human/natural intervention.
LB> Obviously, if the intent was for Jesus to reveal himself as God
LB> incarnate, it failed.
I'm not sure I understand this. You think that the purpose of miracles
is for God to reveal Himself? You think God failed?
LB> As a metaphor however, the story has many points.
Exactly. IMHO, the stories of miracles are a lot more meaningful when
viewed that way than they are when viewed as failed attempts by God to
impress the locals.
LB> theology had begun to be set, and that the authors had that theology
in
LB> mind when they wrote them -- these metaphors were likely consciously
LB> designed to remind and teach Christians of the tenets of their faith,
LB> similar to Jesus's use of parable as teaching tools.
One would wonder if the disciples did _not_ use parables. After all,
parables were one of Jesus' favourite teaching tools, and they watched
and lived with Him for three years. When it came their turn to teach, it
would be hard to understand if they didn't use parables.
I'm not aware of any parable that Jesus explained to the assembled crowd
(I stand to be corrected on that, but He certainly didn't make
explanations part of the regular package). He explained them to the
disciples, but He left them as nice little stories for the multitudes.
So, if the disciples used parables as teaching aids in their writings,
would we expect them to clearly identify them? Or would they follow the
lead of their Master?
For this reason, I think that a lot of stories in the Gospels are really
meant metaphorically, and I think that silly pointless miracles are
an element that is a dead giveaway.
RM> Another one that has always puzzled me is connected with the loaves
RM> and fishes. If miracles are supposed to be convincing (if the
RM> motivation for performing them was to convince those present of the
RM> truth of His revelation) then what happened to the 5000 who were fed
by
RM> the 5 loaves and 2 fishes? They participated in a public miracle.
RM> Weren't they convinced? How come Christ had only a dozen or so
RM> followers when He was on the cross?
LB> I've never seen much indication that the story says the crowd was
LB> AWARE of the miracle -- it was pointed toward the followers themselves
LB> who were not confident of their ability to provide for the people.
The
LB> point of the story is "You CAN provide for them, if you lean on Me."
I think the story actually means pretty much what you said.
But, as an aside, the text (literally taken) in all 4 gospels seems to
indicate to me that the miracle was performed in the presence of the
5000. In fact, they were commanded to sit before the food was blessed.
Interestingly, Matthew seems to relate two separate instances of the same
miracle (in 14, and 15), first time for 5000, second time for 4000. Why
do you figure he did that? To show that the disciples didn't learn very
well?
RM> It seems to me that almost every miracle related in the Bible carries
RM> some symbolic meaning, if one just looks at them the same way one
RM> would look at parables. This goes for the resurrection as much as
the
RM> raising of Lazarus.
LB> :) Exactly.
Hey, we agree!
Take care.
... Kindness gives birth to kindness. - Sophocles
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Mike Ruskai
|Sub: Howdy
|Date: 18 Mar 96 22:10:00
EID:6474 2072b140
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14e2c231
-=> Quoting Mike Ruskai to All <=-
Good morning, Mike.
MR> I'm getting a touch bored with OS Debate, so thought I'd drop in and
MR> ridicule a few insecure witless religious types.
You should fit right in.
MR> So, who would like to "save me", or flaunt their ring-side tickets at
MR> the border of hell where they will watch me be immolated?
Not I.
Take care.
... One planet... One people.... Please!
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose One
|Date: 18 Mar 96 22:27:00
EID:5a88 2072b360
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14e2c241
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to All <=-
Good morning, Marilyn.
Interesting note.
MB> Pursuant to its federal charter and bylaws, the Boy Scouts of America
MB> is mandated to makescouting available to all boys who meet entrance
MB> age requirements irrespective of race, religion, or ethnic origin.
...
MB> Probable cause exists to credit the Complainant
MB> allegations that both she and her minor son were
MB> unalwfully discriminated against, in violation of
MB> Section 6(i) of the Pennsylvania Human Relations
MB> Act, because of religious creed when Respondent
MB> [the BSA] advised the Complainant that belief in
MB> the existence of God was a requirement to obtain
...
MB> Boy Scouts to discuss these terms and conditions. The important
MB> precedent established by the commission's decision is its rejection
of
MB> the BSA's assertion of their "private" nature -- the rejection based
MB> upon the BSA's own statement of purpose...
Looks to me like this court has just decided that atheism is a religion.
The BSA's charter says that they will make scouting available to all boys
regardless of religion. If my understanding is correct, atheism is _NOT_
a religion. They deny access to an atheist. The court sites their own
statement of purpose as grounds to reverse that, saying that the atheists
involved have been "unlawfully discriminated against because of religious
creed". Hmmm.....
I wonder if the Catholic Church can be forced to accept Muslims as members?
I've got a feeling that this one will be reversed on appeal. Sounds like
this court has made a mistake, and the nature of the mistake is one that
even atheists should object to.
Take care.
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR AND JUST GOD [1]
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:03:06
EID:e26f 20733860
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 77bb8d5a
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DA714
AS> I'm not ethically pliable at all, Marilyn. I am recognizing a
AS> QUALITATIVE difference which you seem unwilling to grant. I
AS> MAY NOT kill (or if I do, it must be in cases of self-
AS> defense, to save a greater number). God MUST kill...at least
AS> as the universe is constructed now...for not to allow death
AS> would mean much more misery. (As I mentioned before, and you
AS> did NOT answer.) You keep on equating God with a human being.
AS> He is not. He is not hypocritical unless you can point out an
AS> instance where He said, "_I_ may not kill." And if He didn't
AS> allow death, the germs, insects, and rodents would soon
AS> overrun the earth, making our immortal lives truly Hellish.
You are forgetting that He Himself created it. And you are
also forgetting that, according to the myth, he created it
without death. Now you're saying that a world without death
would be hellish. I guess he created a hellish world, then,
and feeding us that crap about A&E was merely his way of
implementing a bug fix. I'm not surprised.
AS> If you think creation is a democracy, I'm sorry, it's not.
AS> That's a pantheistic view that I cannot subscribe to (if
AS> nothing else, it would make me a murderer every time I killed
AS> a germ.). You yourself, in another post, were insulted by
AS> being compared to a germ, a virii, a chimp, indicating you DO
AS> hold to a hierarchal view of biology...that virii and germs
AS> are "lesser" than yourself. But you stop at Man. It is YOU
AS> who make man the pinnacle of Creation, not I.
Do you eat meat? At least I'm intellectually honest about it.
AS> It is I who think there are at least two levels beyond what
AS> we know (the angelic and the godly) and maybe many more.
So you've invented an invisible hierarchy in order to make your
point to yourself. You and Michael Jordan have really smooth
moves, but I'm much more impressed with his, quite frankly.
... Innuendo: An Italian homosexual.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR AND JUST GOD [2]
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:08:12
EID:e26f 20733900
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c30bc733
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DA714
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
>> CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS MESSAGE <<
AS> them, something you would not do to something you considered
AS> an equal, no matter how annoying. You have a different
AS> standard for their behavior than you do for yours.
MB> But I haven't instructed THEM not to kill, now, have I? See
MB> the substantive difference? I certainly hope so, for the
MB> safety of your neighbors.
AS> But the mosquitoes know that they are doing what we would not
AS> approve of, Marilyn. That is why they fly away when we raise
AS> our hands.
You have GOT to be kidding! They fly away in order to preserve
their lives. In no way do they have enough sentience to connect
their actions with mine; they merely are showing a survival trait.
Period. If they did not have the apparent reflex, we'd not have
mosquitoes.
AS> In other words, in a non-verbal communication,
AS> which is the only way you can instruct mosquitos, they know
AS> perfectly well that they are doing what we would disapprove
AS> of. So your "substantive difference" evaporates. On a level
AS> THEY would understand communication, they know. Similarly,
AS> the written or spoken Word of God is doubtless far less than
AS> the direct, mind-to-mind communication that God might enjoy
AS> with things like angels. But at least it is put in a way we
AS> understand. And there still is a substantive difference in
AS> YOUR standard.
Nonsense! I allow mosquitoes to be mosquitoes, just as I allow
humans to be humans. As for your god being unwilling to
communicate with us, that, too is garbage. He's never tried.
Mythology aside, the only clues we've had regarding our behavior
are the NATURAL RESULTS of those behaviors and our own decision
that we don't like those results, leading us to the conclusion
that we ought to give up the behaviors.
You hold mosquitoes to a different standard of
AS> conduct than you do for men. If I said you killed human being
AS> for annoying you, you would think I was accusing you of being
AS> a dangerous sociopath, and be outraged. But that is what you
AS> do for mosquitoes.
I definitely see a qualitative difference between the life of
a mosquito and the life of another human being. Yes. As do
you. Do you take antibiotics when you get pneumonia?
MB> I see. HE can kill all the human beings he wants to, but he
MB> WE kill even one, we are doomed forever. Nice, consistent,
MB> well-managed god you've got there, Al. I hope you're proud of
MB> him. I certainly wouldn't be proud of any god of mine that
MB> had lesser standards than my own. I would insist on one I
MB> could at least look up to with a certain amount of desire to
MB> emulate his behavior. Your god, I dunno, if I emulated HIS
MB> behavior, I'd end up on death row. Not a nice guy, I'd say.
AS> You do emulate that part of His behavior...every day,
AS> Marilyn. When you bathe and kill germs. Again, you are
AS> equating yourself with the Creator of the Universe, when you
AS> do NOT equate yourself with germs and virii! I haven't an ego
AS> that big, Marilyn. Nor would I respect a god who totally
AS> withheld death and made life a hellish, unending series of
AS> diseases, parasites, insects who couldn't be killed, or
AS> rodents. Your stand is plainly inconsistent. Your standards
AS> are clearly the same as God's, in that you allow the death of
AS> lesser beings...you just can't believe you are a lesser being
AS> compared to the Creator of the Universe. You recognize a
AS> hierarchy one way (to chimps, rodents, germs, virii) but do
AS> not recognize it the other way.
And you are conveniently overlooking the obvious. Your god is
supposedly omni-*, which means he has infinite alternatives to
dealing out death to lesser creatures. My choices are much
fewer, and I can only choose among the choices that I have. In
this case, my choices are to either succumb to a lesser creature,
or kill it first. Why doesn't you god exercise some other choice?
He has so many.
AS> (Plus we are disregarding the fact that God, at least for
AS> humans--not commenting on animals one way or the other--does
AS> provide for existence of the soul after death, according to
AS> my beliefs,
Handy little escape hatch you've got there, Al. I don't buy it.
Dead is dead, in ALL instances.
... You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:21:14
EID:a8dc 20733aa0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 e289059b
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DB5C4
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> There's probably some reason. And humans' belief in the
AS> afterlife is based on..?
MB> Our higher brain simply has a hard time accepting the unpleasant.
MB> We have no evidence that other animals have enough sense of self
MB> to even equate the death they witness around them with their own
MB> inevitable demise. We make that connection and find it a disturb-
MB> ing thought. So, in order to maintain our mental equillibrium, we
MB> put a happy-face on it, and call it an afterlife. OF COURSE it has
MB> survival qualities; without that happy-face, we would be obsessed
MB> with the subject of our own demise, thereby quickening that event.
AS> But are YOU, Marilyn? You're not a believer in a diety. I
AS> assume you are not a believer in an afterlife. You seem to
AS> get along quite well without such a belief, as do Fred, Dan,
AS> Shelby, David, etc. It seems that the people who would like
AS> us to think that such a reaction is all it is are the best
AS> examples of why it is NOT. Communist Russia got along fine
AS> for decades where belief in the supernatural and an afterlife
AS> was not sponsored or merely allowed by the state, but
AS> actively discouraged, although not outright banned.
AS> You know that childbirth would be a disturbing thing. An
AS> extremely painful thing. But you don't make up myths on how
AS> glorious it will be, or self-hypnotize yourself into having a
AS> religious experience while giving birth to block the pain.
AS> Your higher brain accepts THAT without hedging. In fact, YOUR
AS> higher brain seems to accept the extinction of your existence
AS> with equanimity. Even some religions do that, indeed the
AS> Sadduccees did that. Are atheists and Sadduccees and other
AS> non-believers in an afterlife obsessed with death, and
AS> thereby quickening it? I think not.
Not everybody handles unpleasant prospects in the same way.
What I said above is but one way to handle the unpleasant
prospect of one's demise. We handle our demise in ways that
differ from how believers handle that same prospect. No doubt
about it. Some people can look unpleasant reality squarely in
the eye and stare it down; others must look away at the pretty
flowers, pretending that those lovely colors and smells are the
only reality that exist, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
... Total lack of ethics? Become a Christian lawyer!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Buchanan
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:41:00
EID:f28a 20723d20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14eae131
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Dan.
DC> The Royal Canadian Air Farce?
DC> Never heard of it...
RM> Actually, "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", a weekly satirical look at the
RM> news, and a close relative of the Air Farce. (The title is a mix of
DC> That one I have never hear of! What night is it on? I get at least
DC> 2 Canadian channels and will have to give it a watch... Thanks!
It's on Monday nights at 9:00 on CBC. If you like the Air Farce's type
of
humour, you'll like 22 Minutes. It might require a reasonable grasp of
Canadian current events to really appreciate some of their stuff, though.
Like a couple of weeks ago, a major chunk of the show would have made no
sense at all to anyone who wasn't aware of the incident where our Prime
Minister roughed up a protester. (And anyone who _was_ aware of the
incident expected them to devote a big chunk of the show to it ).
Keep your stick on the ice.
... Hell is paved with Good Samaritans. - William M. Holden
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 19 Mar 96 06:02:54
EID:bdc0 20733040
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 243ffa8b
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting STEVE QUARRELLA to JESSE JONES on 03-16-96
SQ> MH>> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid
SQ> MH>> and win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom,
SQ> MH>> you win at least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce
SQ>it if it happens.) JJ> Happy hunting!
SQ>You guys are both teeming with megalomania. If the echo annoys you
SQ>both so much, fuck off and go somewhere else
Invitation to leave number 348,921.
SQ>Jesse, I haven't seen YOU gloating that I'm not around lately to
SQ>annoy you with hurtful questions, and I seem to recall that I'm one
SQ>of the people who pushes your buttons when the going gets rough. I'd
SQ>think you'd be overjoyed. :)
Have you been gone, Steve? I had not noticed. Don't flatter
yourself. You do not press any buttons. You lack the intelligence to
do so. You are a minor annoyance.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/18/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
Your IQ test results are in and they were negative.
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 19 Mar 96 13:33:38
EID:7a2d 20736c20
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 06bcb8e2
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0009f9d4
On (18 Mar 96) Larry Bevard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
LB> MB>That is the ultimate hypocracy -- especially since he has so
LB> MB>many more choices than we do, being omni-* and all.
LB> Think about what you just wrote. Since God is omni-* don't you
LB> think He knows a little more than we do? True, it is wrong to Kill.
LB> False, He will seen us to Hell for eternity of killing always. There
LB> is sometimes that God has directed the Israelites to kill, was He then
LB> condemning them for following His orders?
That is my whole point, stupid. He is too much of a hypocrite to
follow the rules that he condemns others to eternal torment for
disobeying. The old "do as I say and not as I do" routine. I
don't follow any leader who is so demonstrably incapable of
following his own rules. He's a petty tyrant, not a god of
love, as his PR Department insists to characterize him.
... "Taglines: Your last chance to really piss off the other guy!"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Debate/Logic/Education
|Date: 19 Mar 96 15:30:52
EID:0bfa 20737bc0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c7ceb7f3
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314c9b0d
On (17 Mar 96) Preston Simpson wrote to Norbert Sykes...
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Debate/Logic/Education wgah'nagl
PS> fhtagn.
NS> I use as my sources for understanding logic the FAQ from this echo,
NS> to a certain extent, and a small book that I've had for a couple of
NS> years called Elementary Logic, by Willard Van Orman Quine. But I know
NS> that this isn't enough.
PS> In my case, I got by on less. I've been on HOLYSMOKE for over a year,
PS> more like two--and my education on logic and the procedures used in
PS> debate all came from this conference.
Now for a moment of egotism. I'm the one who originally posted
those rules of argumentation. They've sure gotten the mileage
since. Probably the only real positive contribution I've made
to this newsgroup in the years I've posted here.
... Reality has limits; stupidity has none. - N. Bonaparte
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: All
|Sub: Theological Arguments
|Date: 19 Mar 96 20:06:42
EID:e4b5 2073a0c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b4e95c4b
From: debate@freethought.tamu.edu on behalf of Vic Stenger
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 1996 6:04 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Does the System Adminstrator Exist?
[ Article reposted from talk.atheism ]
[ Author was Andy Gray ]
[ Posted on 1 Mar 1996 13:32:54 -0800 ]
(Special thanks to the guys on alt.atheism.)
Given that there is a lot of discussion about whether or not our LAN
really does have a System Administrator, and given that no empirical
evidence of the existence or non-existence of the System Administrator is
extant, I thought it would be helpful to have a frank and open discussion
about the issues surrounding the concept.
Here are some popular arguments:
Argument from Design:
1. One looks at a simple computer, and sees evidence of intelligent
design.
2. One looks at a Sun Sparc 20 and... um... well... Okay, One looks
at a DEC Alpha and sees evidence of intelligent design.
3. It is therefore likely that something created them.
4. One looks at the network and sees evidence of intelligent design.
5. It is therefore likely that something created it. That something
is the System Administrator.
Counter-argument:
1. If you think the network implies intelligent design, you haven't
seen *our* network.
2. Even assuming this proves the existence of a System Administrator,
there's no evidence the System Administrator is intelligent.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
First Causes argument:
1. When my computer comes on, it is because I turned it on. My
computer cannot turn itself on.
2. When I turn my computer on and connect to the network, the network
is already there waiting for me.
3. I know I did not activate the network.
4. Therefore, something must have caused the network to exist.
5. That something could be the Router, but then what installed the
Router?
6. That something must be the System Administrator.
Counter-argument:
1. So what caused the System Administrator?
2. Still doesn't prove the System Administrator is intelligent.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Argument from Popularity:
1. Almost everyone believes that the System Administrator exists.
Those who don't believe He exists are in the minority.
2. Many respected people claim to have received email from Him.
3. In almost any company since the dawn of the Computer Age, there
has been some form of System Administrator myth.
4. Given the universality of the myths, it is unlikely that such
myths are not based on truth.
Counter-argument:
1. Most users are clueless morons who need to believe in the Great
Benevolent Super-User, and that He protects and watches over
their data.
2. So who's to say it's the System Admin that HR claims to have hired?
Why not Brian Kernighan or Cliff Stoll, or Zeus, or Thor or any
other such mythical creature?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Argument from Authority:
1. Management insists that the System Administrator exists.
Specifically:
a. HR insists that they hired Him
b. Accounting claims to have PO's signed by Him
c. MIS has the The Big Book of Documentation, written by
Him or His disciples.
Counter-argument:
1. Since when has Management known what they were doing?
2. Using the Big Book of Documentation as proof that the BBoD was
written by the System Administrator is circular. It could be
a fabrication.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Cartesian Argument:
1. No user can create a more Super account than he himself possesses.
2. No user can grant greater system privileges than he himself possesses.
3. All users have heard of the root account, and that the root
account is omnipotent and possesses all privileges.
4. Since the concept of the root account is greater than the accounts
possessed by the users, the users cannot have created the concept of
the root account. Therefore the concept of the root account must come
from something that possesses those privileges.
5. There is an entry for 'root' in /etc/passwd.
6. The root account can only have been created by the Super User, the
System Administrator.
Counter-argument:
1. Statement 1 is a dubious premise.
2. The existence of the root account is not proof that anyone ever
logs into that account.
3. Still doesn't prove that the System Admin is intelligent.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Ontological Proof:
1. Given: The property of existence is more Super than the property of
non-existence.
2. The SysAdmin is defined as "a user, than which no more Super user
can be conceived".
3. No matter how great a Super User you can conceive which possesses
the property of non-existence, you can then add the property of
existence and make the Super User even more Super.
4. Therefore, the System Administrator exists.
Counter-argument:
1. Rests on a dubious definition of what is and is not Super.
2. The concept of a Super User is nowhere near analogous to the Super
User itself. I can conceive of something, but that's only the concept
of it, not the thing itself.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Spinozist Argument:
1. The System Administrator is defined as the most perfect user possible.
2. The property of necessary existence means that anything which
possesses it must necessarily exist.
3. If existence is better than non-existence (see the ontological
proof), then necessary existence is better still.
4. Any perfect user must possess the property of necessary existence.
5. Therefore the System Administrator must necessarily exist.
However:
6. Being perfect, the System Administrator cannot make mistakes,
delete the wrong account, trash the root directory, mess up a
tape load, etc.
7. Being perfect, the System Administrator can not be capable of
goal-directed action, because such action would imply that the
network is somehow less than perfect in its current state.
8. Therefore, the System Administrator is really more of a force of
nature within the system.
9. Arguably, then the System Administrator *is* the system itself.
Counter-argument:
1. None, since the System Administrator has been defined to the
point where it is a totally useless concept, there's no point
in arguing.
At least this resolves one of the major issues: the Spinozist
argument proves that *if* the System Administrator does exist,
it cannot be intelligent.
... 23rd Rule of Creationism: Claim superiority for Christian education.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Hitler
|Date: 19 Mar 96 20:09:02
EID:8d61 2073a120
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 fa4fe796
REPLY: 1:116/19 032DBC72
On (16 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to J.J. Hitt...
AS> Hmmmm. And how do lapsed Catholics who haven't done their
AS> Easter Communion in a few years get back in God's good
AS> graces, in Catholic doctrine? By confession. You are
AS> implicitedly DYING in a state of mortal sin...i.e., with no
AS> chance to confess.
That's what the Last Rites are for, Al, so a person can get
absolved of those sins that they committed since their last
Confession.
... Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Daryl Alopaeus
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 19 Mar 96 22:28:54
EID:5aa3 2073b380
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 14f7b762
REPLY: 1:252/107 3149c2e9
> Hey all! Is anyone familiar with the predictions of M. Nostradamus?
I
> have recently read that the world is supposed to end by nuclear war at
the
> end of the year 1999. This seems to coincide with the bible, doesn't
it? I
> am not very familiar with the bible. There are a few things that
> Nostradamus predicted that have already come true, so I guess the end
is
> inevitable?
> What do you think? Anyone from any different religions have anything
to
> add to do with "the christian apoccolypse"?
> --- Telegard v2.99.g4 [ml]
> * Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
Actually according to the bible, I can't see the world ending in four years.
I base my reasoning on the fact that in the bible we are told that after
Jesus
comes, believers will go to heaven, and after that they will come back to
earth to live for about 1000 years. If the world were to come to an end
this
could not at all happen. Therefor, I have come to the conclusion that the
earth will be around for at least 1000 more years.
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07a (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: (2/2)YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:54:00
EID:b662 20735ec0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 77178e57
AS> You have an excellent point in that, for many previous
AS> generations would regard with horror and disgust what is done
AS> routinely (abortions) and talk about assisted suicides and
AS> euthenasia. (Whether
JB> You mean like the generations that sold their children or
JB> exposed them on a hillside when they were unwanted? Same with
JB> their elderly. Or beat them (either end of the age spectrum)
JB> to death with impunity? Or starved them? Yep, they'd be
JB> horrified alright.
You have to pick and choose your era carefully. As a generalization
Al's idea doesn't make it.
"He who begins by loving Christianity better than Truth will
proceed by loving his own sect or church better than Christianity,
and end by loving himself better than all." --Samuel Taylor
Coleridge
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
---
* KMail 3.10m Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Ray Talley
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Re: apostate
|Date: 19 Mar 96 16:42:07
EID:a6a0 20738540
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314f4865
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to Karen Davis <=-
KM> @MSGID: 1:271/460 3136c3bc
KM> Tuesday February 27 1996 13:36, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> You expect me to believe someone who does?
KM>> Why would I believe them? They are the ones that had Christ crusified.
KD> And why should I believe someone who believes in the mythology that
he
KD> WAS crucified?
KM>
KM> You believe it to be a mythology, I do not. And to be quite frank
KM> about it, I don't understand why someone who believes it to be
KM> mythology would spend so much time here debating it.
How about that . . .
1) I'm worried that room temperature IQ fundies like you will use our schools
as recuiting ground for your delusions.
2) Relgion is the single greatest cause of suffering on the planet. (Both
yesterday and today.)
3) Willful ignorence pisses me off.
KD>> There is no more reason to believe it is true than the Mabinogion is
KD>> true.
KM>> Again your opinion.
KD> And a valid one.
KM>
KM> In your opinion, not mine.
KM>
KM> Kenneth Mcabee
Opinions are like assholes, everybody . . .
You continue to make the extraordinary claim that you have found the creator
of the universe and that IT is your personal buddy. Please demonstrate why
we should believe you.
... Why be born again when you can simply grow up?
--- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Ray Talley
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 19 Mar 96 17:51:32
EID:8637 20738e60
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314f4863
-=> Quoting Boni Hitch to Pam Gray <=-
BH> @MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e115f10
PG>Well we could but we wouldn't have as much fun...
PG>BH> I'd LOVE to be able to bash stuff around HolySmoke but the messages
PG>BH> don't go and I got tired of typing for nothing. Jeez, we could go
the
PG>BH> "Religions" at RofD--but we don't really disagree...:-)
PG>Oh well I guess we just have to talk about something else elsewhere -
we bo
PG>could check out the other debating base! :)
BH>
BH> Avoid ToxicNet unless you're into no-moderator, "brutal"...
PG>Apologies for being off topic...
BH>
BH>
BH> Who are ya apologizing to? These messages ain't goin' nowhere!...:-)
BH>
HI THERE! We hear you loud and clear. Any time would be fine.
... No Special Rights for Christers!
--- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Ray Talley
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 19 Mar 96 17:51:32
EID:4f57 20738e60
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314f4864
-=> Quoting Annette Spence to Norbert Sykes <=-
NS> SW> May God Almighty surround you Sue with a hedge of His angelic Host
to
NS> SW> protect you and guide you into a full knowledge of the truth. Have
a
NS>
NS> KC> And if she wants a shrubbery? A nice two-tiered one for a good
NS> KC> effect?
NS>
NS> KC> What then, eh Steve? WHAT THEN?!
AS>
AS> hey if she's not a Christian we will only pray so far for her...
What else did you have in mind? Spitting, stoning? I know, you could hope
your god-thingy would toss her into a lake of fire for all eternity. That'll
teach her!
... Why be born again when you can simply grow up?
--- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Ray Talley
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Big bird
|Date: 19 Mar 96 17:51:32
EID:13f1 20738e60
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 314f4866
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Fredric Rice <=-
MM> @MSGID: 1:352/266 31367C9E
FR> Actually, Jim, any hate group you can point to which hates blacks and
FR> gays is going to be a Christanic group -- one of _your_ ideological
FR> friends. Hatred and bigotry is nearly the venue of the deity
FR> religious.
MM>
MM> Have you ever realized how discrimination is deeply engrained in our
MM> culture? Sadly, I watched a child singing along with Big Bird, "One
MM> of these things. is not like the others. One of these things just
MM> doesn't belong" Scarey thoughts. Regardless of the religious
MM> connotations, discrimination and intollerance begins it's training
MM> very early in innocent ways all through our society. * SPITFIRE v3.51
MM> Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA. -!- Alexi/Mail 2.02b
MM> (#10000) ! Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!!
Were they showing pictures of children at the time?
Because if the 'thing' that didn't belong was a red triangle in a line
of blue squares then I think thats not nessicarly negative.
Both abstract and real groups of things are defined from within and without.
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
--- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Mike Carr
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 18 Mar 96 07:25:51
EID:002e 20723b20
MSGID: 1:284/120 730310e2
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-> MC> Miracles have been very well documented by skeptics and
-> MC> physicians at Lourdes in France. A study of any one of those
-> MC> miracles certified there is very convincing. It becomes a
-> MC> question of evidence which is compelling enough to make prejudic
->
->
-> Please present references that document these "miracles", giving the
-> odne on them and the scientists involved.
->
-> --- msgedsq 2.1
-> * Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
->Martin,
Many books have been written on the subject of Miracles at Lourdes in France
and the scrutiny that they receive. Dr Alexis Carrel (Nobel) documents
this in "The voyage to Lourdes" N.Y., 1950. Ruth Cranston has a book "The
Miracle of Lourdes". Carrel was a skeptic and converted, Cranston, a Protestant,
a believer. Many, Many others. Have a nice day. Michael
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Angels...
|Date: 18 Mar 96 12:15:57
EID:b8af 207261e0
MSGID: 1:284/120 730310f3
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
Quoting J.j. to Dawn:
JH> You are apologizing?
Believe it or not.
JH> In HOLYSMOKE?
Who cares if it's HOLYSMOKE?
JH> For being RUDE?
Some may like to go around screaming all sorts of nasty everything at people.
I am not one of them. I choose not to resort to blatant flaming when stomped
by you guys... well, at least till the next time you really piss me off...
JH> Uh.. thanks, I guess... I hope you don't mind if I just
JH> stick it behind my ear and smoke it later. Sure thing. But don't blame
me when ya get lead-poisoning.
JH> ...Hostes aleingeni me abduxerunt
What the HELL is THAT??? :-)
... (singing) I LOVE ANGELS, YES I DO, I LOVE ANGELS, HOW BOUT YOU?... ___
Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mike Carr
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 18 Mar 96 20:31:52
EID:99a1 2072a3e0
MSGID: 1:284/120 73031104
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-> > The least we could expect from a
-> > creator God would be miracles that demonstrate His power (not His
-> > and remind us of His presence. They would also certify any revela
-> > given. A miracle at Lourdes Madame Bire became blind in February
-> > Medical exam showed blindness was due to atrophy of the papilla; i
-> > words, the optic nerve was withered at the point where it enters t
-> > Obviously, there was organic reason for her blindness. No one can
-> > such a condition. On August 5, 1908 Madame Bire received Holy Com
-> > the Grotto at Lourdes. At 10:15 a.m., the priest who was carrying
-> > Blessed Sacrament in procession passed beside her. Madame Bire at
-> > the statue of the Blessed Virgin. She was taken at once to the per
-> > Medical Bureau at Lourdes where doctors are always available. Ath
-> > Doctors are welcome to examine cases to their hearts content (one
-> > the famous Dr. Alexis Carrel, who came to scoff, but left a conver
-> > Lainey, an oculist, examined her. What he found was even more ast
-> > than a miraculous cure: She could read even the smallest letters
-> > newspaper, but the OPTIC NERVE WAS STILL WITHERED! After a month
-> > eye examination by three specialists found that the nerve had been
->
-> Why did such reports as this essentially cease coming out after World
-> Mike?? Why do you have to dredge all the way back to 1908 to find a
->
-> WHY has there been NO recognized miracles since the early 1950's, Mike
Hmmm, Time becomes the critical measure. Is there widespread contempt for
prior generations? I wonder why? Does time make any difference here, especially
in the case of Madame Bire? Of course, miracles have occured at Lourdes
and many other places in modern times. Take a moment picture your last sunset
or the first flowers of spring or the motion of your fingers responding
to your thoughts and tell me again that miracles cannot happen.
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Conversation choices
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:10:42
EID:89a4 20735940
MSGID: 1:284/120 73114d10
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Dawn Kleuser <=-
MM> Humor is indeed good for people, but I prefer the type that isn't too
MM> much at the other guys expense.
MM> Don't worry about the impression left by the first post. I didn't get
MM> off to a real smooth start here either. I may also be laughter
MM> material for some of the posters, and probably frustration material
for
MM> others. Welcome to the area, and try to grow a tough skin and a keen
MM> mind.
MM> Hey! you are from MO!! Where in MO is Linn Creek.... as in how far
MM> from Springfield?
Thanx for the reply! :-) Let's see, Linn Creek is about 2 hours north of
Springfeild. Right smack next to Camdenton... I've been here 3 years now,
grew up in New Jersey. I like it here much better. Yeah, I think I might
have the HOLYSMOKE thing pretty well understood now. :-) Well, see ya around
HOLYSMOKE, and thanx again... - Dawn BTW, what's up with your name? Just
curious. :-)
... To the game you stay a slave. - Metallica ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: CONVERSATION CHOICES
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:10:43
EID:b07b 20735940
MSGID: 1:284/120 73114d21
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Dawn Kleuser <=-
JB> Did you learn to read something of an echo before posting to it? If
JB> you did, then the experience was valuable and could save you some other
JB> problems down the line.
No, unfotunately, I did not, because I didn't know to... too late for that
now!
JB> This is the ONLY echo where you can learn things like this without
JB> getting bounced out on your ear. Good thing! Sheesh, I thought
I was gonna hafta dig myself a cyber- grave there for awhile, anyway! :-)
JB> This is HolySmoke, religious food fight and education echo. Hey,
no kidding?!?
JB> ... This echo just gets weirder and weirder. Oh wait. That's me.
JB> Sorry.
SORRY FOR WHAT??? I quote J.j. Hitt:
JH> You are apologizing?
JH> In HOLYSMOKE?
JH> For being RUDE?
I think J.j.'s way of thinking concerning this echo is quite fitting...
Wouldn't you say? :-) See ya around - Dawn
... Got to swim upstream, got a rebel seed... - Heart ___ Blue Wave/QWK
v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Ted Hollingshead
|To: All
|Sub: Conference
|Date: 19 Mar 96 19:10:55
EID:b444 20739940
TID: HyperMail! v1.20 95-0064
Is this a religion conference or a chat conference?
---
* Origin: [FidoNet] The Jungle 614-384-2042 (1:2260/315)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: 1 god + 1 god = 0 gods
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:22:00
EID:024a 20726ac0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E17
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 12:48, Jim Germiquet got back to David Rice
JG> What is it GOOD for people to do?
DR> Harm none.
JG> Well there you go ! The teachings of Jesus Christ !
Sorry, but that philosophy predates your godling by about
600 yrs. It was espoused by Confusious and later by Lao-tse,
all well before your godling was even a twinkling in Joseph's eye.
... Truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:30:00
EID:a628 20726bc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E18
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 12:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Preston Simpson
JG> I understand what you are saying. Your problem is that you percieve
JG> that God created hell, And a good god would not create a bad place.
"I, the Lord created evil. I the Lord do all these things."
Now, either your god didn't create everything or your bible
is a proven tome of lies.
Defend one or the other. It should prove to be hysterical to
watch you spin clock- or counterclockwise.
... 1st 1.01 #1024 * In the beginning, man created God.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:34:00
EID:d2e1 20726c40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E19
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 17:40, Sue Alexander got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> At the rate Mikey's twiting people, I'm suprised that he hasn't
DC> even twitted himself.
SA> He has to have something to read that he can't argue too much
SA> with.
The problem is that I've seen posts where it does look like
he's arguing with himself! Happens most of the time when he
comes up with one of his infamous analogies...
... "Faith is not rational." Mikey Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Always with me
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:36:00
EID:1d15 20726c80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 11:44, Brad Jackson got back to All
BJ> I like to post in this area (Religious Debates), to show the
BJ> young people not to fear (satan) and his deciples.
It's pretty easy, Brad: Stop believing in your boogey man. Now,
put your night light on and try and get some sleep.
... About 8 board feet short of a full cord.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 18 Mar 96 13:46:00
EID:2514 20726dc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 04:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> the fact that the John who supposedly wrote that gospel cannot
DC> be identified as the disciple John.
AS> On the contrary, I think it one of the most firm of the gospel
AS> identifications. We know it was around fairly early...a fragment
AS> dated 125 AD, for instance. The gospel has details which seem to be
Let's see.... 125-33=92 Add about 24 yrs = 116. Seems like that
fragment was penned by a very rather old man, Al.
AS> side steps mentioning by name John or his brother James, the sons of
AS> Zebedee, but rather cattily has "the disciple whom Jesus loved best"
So you aren't even sure just which disciple's story the gospel
was written about.
AS> style matches (even to whole phrases) the wording in the epistles of
AS> John, especially 1 John, where he specifically mentions himself as
Therefore, judging at the age of the supposed author, it's quite
likely that the words were either written in the style of, by
a very old man, or written altogether about 100 yrs after the
supposed events.
DC> This is besides the fact that there are no Roman records recording
DC> the event in the first place.
AS> followers...is not from Roman records, but from Josephus and the NT.
The insertions in Josephus have been shown to be fraudulent.
AS> in no way connected to Jesus. I suspect the fire in Rome may have
AS> done away with some of the records, but there could be any number of
AS> causes.
However, Al, the records of Pilate are extant and do not reflect
in any way the bible story of the xification.
... +Origin: SOTS NETWORK: "IHSh NOTS! fer Jeezuz!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: children
|Date: 18 Mar 96 14:01:00
EID:cbba 20727020
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 12:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Preston Simpson
JG> Maybe we should define evil here ?
JG> 1) morally wrong or bad
JG> 2) harmful or injurious
JG> 3) unfortunate or disastrous
JG> 4) an evil quality or conduct
JG> 5) harm or misfortune.
Seems like they all describe your god to a "T".
... Ad Hoc, Ad Nauseum and Ad Hominen: the Holy Trinity of Stringfellow
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORM
|Date: 18 Mar 96 19:19:00
EID:9b65 20729a60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 05:08, Al Schroeder got back to Jim Germiquet
First you say:
JG> upon leaving the body? Who knows where heaven might be ?
AS> I don't know about spirits, but I know where heaven is. Between
AS> Cindy Crawford's thighs.
Not a bad choice, but my preference would seriously be Goldie Hawn.
Then you say To: Anthony Grigor-scott
AS> Whatever the "Semtitc" people are.
AG> They are the descendents of Shem, Noah's son.
No, the SEMITIC people are. I was making fun of your typo, Anthony.
Obviously you missed the point.
Best be careful, Al, you and Lynda are starting to sound like
dyed-in-the-wool atheists!
... Photons have mass? I didn't know they were Catholic!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Elephant velvet
|Date: 18 Mar 96 19:27:00
EID:fbfe 20729b60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 16:24, Masochistic Maiden got back to Michael Hardy
MH> true, but incomplete, that's no reason to assume that all are. Some
MH> views of God may simply be wrong, period.
MM> And how would you go about determinine whos view is more correct? It
MM> seems a totally useless argument to me. Yes, sometimes we have to
Looks like you are getting the hang of it!
... Ad Hoc, Ad Nauseum and Ad Hominen: the Holy Trinity of Stringfellow
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 18 Mar 96 19:31:00
EID:7ca7 20729be0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 12:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Shelby Sherman
SS> Use Occam's Razor. In order to have a creation, you must first have
SS> a creator.
JG> I see the creation all around me. Therefore there must have been a
JG> creator. Thank you for this wonderful physical proof of god the
JG> "creator".
You have a "creator" that has killed many people with earthquakes,
floods, volcanic eruptions, etc.
Seems like your creator is less than perferct. Be careful that
a meteorite doesn't strike you dead the next time you venture
out into the streets...
... Polytheism: n., the belief that God is a Parrot.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FRIED ICE CREAM
|Date: 18 Mar 96 19:56:00
EID:b842 20729f00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-14-96 03:06, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Told you that Fried Ice Cream is real... Here's a couple of recipes
AS> Well, so much for my diet...
AS> Thanks, Dan. Saved to disc.
No problem. That was the first one I had a reply on. Looks like
there are 3 or more variations of the theme. (Saved to disk,
of course!)
One of the posters who has made it was a bit disappionted the
first time. However, he tried it again and it came out, and
I quote, "Very good!"
... Caution! Atheism can be fattening, and tastey too.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: HolySmoke FAQ /04F
|Date: 18 Mar 96 20:30:00
EID:2c9a 2072a3c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-17-96 02:25, Sean Mccullough got back to All
SM> Well, folks, that's it. The First FAQ under my curatorship.
SM> My main accomplishment this time was to get it sliced into traditional
SM> FidoNet size slices. I believe this will improve the success rate at
If this was the last of the posts, it looks like they all have
gotten here.
However, you may consider sending it less often or paring it
down a bit...
Anyhow, thanks for compiling it. I'm sure that Coridon is happy
that you took it over from him.
As Stephen Green would say:
Have fun and don't get caught!
... Encyclopedia: Brainwashing -- See: Christianity
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 18 Mar 96 20:49:00
EID:6928 2072a620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 18:10, Rob Burcham got back to Sue Armstrong
SA> Gee, how can you tell? :) The Progressive Conservatives
RB> Progressive Conservatives? Do you also have Reactionary
RB> Liberals?
They are on either side of the Neutral Activists.
... "Alex, we'll take Assimilated Races for $100." -Borg Jeopardy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: satan runs
|Date: 18 Mar 96 20:53:00
EID:7f58 2072a6a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 11:44, Brad Jackson got back to All
BJ> I would like to point out that the messages written to me have
BJ> dropped off, a lot!!
It's just that you are a twit, and an idiot to boot. Feel
grateful that you got this reply, doofus.
... "Faith is what you have when you have no facts." unknown.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:16:00
EID:62bd 20733a00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-15-96 15:28, Sean Mccullough got back to Dan Ceppa
> MH> they have proven to be no more consequential than buzzing flies --
> Trying yet again to come up with another one of your "analogies",
> Mikey? You know you haven't ever came up with one that holds
SM> The __real__ reason Hardly won't twit the ilk of Leipzig or Goldberg
SM> is that doing this would be a direct admission of defeat by
SM> intellectual superiors. As none of the ones who ARE published as
Well, I think Mikey is about to twit Glodberg. Martin has been
after him for evidence quite steady lately.
SM> Never mind that the issue is STILL the fact that Hardly has been
SM> defeated by his intellectual superiors! :-)
He insists on defending his indefensible position, insisting that
the lack of evidence "proves" his evidence. He still has yet
to provide the algorithm that shows him the "true", "analogous"
or "allegorical" portions of the bible.
Hardy appears to have begun a slow meltdown phase. It's rather
different than other fundys that go the China Syndrome route.
SM> forward this to Michael Hardy. Let's say the secret word and be
SM> rid of him!"
ROLTF!
... "Hell exists because god loves you." Mikey Hardy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MESSAGE TO ASMODEUS
|Date: 19 Mar 96 07:28:00
EID:f1fe 20733b80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89460E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-15-96 01:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> tickets! It would put even professional wresting to shame with
DC> both of their lack of integrities.
AS> We can become the Don Kings of Fidonet!! Steve Winter vs. Asmodeus.
AS> Now...who can we pit that Walter Bartoo against?
How about Michael Hardy? They can each put each other on their
twit lists and complain to all about a lack of evidence that
the other doesn't have. The winner goes up against John Prewitt.
... "Bother", said Pooh as he drank his fifth Pan Galactic Gargle
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Us bans abortionspeak
|Date: 19 Mar 96 10:53:37
EID:f9ec 207356a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed827c
REPLY: 1:157/200 711304e3
Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
KDM> TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL> KDM> Note the word malicious, please.
TL>TL>Some actually 'BELIEVE' govt officials NEVER have an evil intent.
TL>
TL> KDM> Did I ever say they didn't? However, malicious has a specific
TL> KDM> definition, one that doesn't apply in this case.
TL>
TL> The word 'malice' is generally defined by most people as 'intent to
TL> do harm.' Most folks associate the word 'evil' with 'harm done
TL> intentionally.'
TL>
TL> Govt officials 'intend' to 'harm' our right of free spech via the
TL> new Communications Decency Act.
TL>
TL> How is this NOT 'malicious?'
KDM> Does the word "intent" mean anything to you? Please note that the
KDM> intent is on the part of the actor, not the actee.
Are you actually taking the position that govt 'actors' are CLUELESS about
the 'harm' they do to free speech via the Communications Decency Act?
Are you claiming govt is blindly assembling legislation that UNintentionally
'harms' free speech if enforced; that they really didn't mean it?
Are you claiming govt dosn't KNOW what is's doing? Or are you claiming
that it's a helpless captive of 'intentions' other than their own?
Are you proposing some sort of secret CONSPIRACY here?
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:09:41
EID:80b9 20735920
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed827d
REPLY: 1:157/200 71130538
Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
KDM> TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL> You may be too unconsious to shock; but, in America NOTHING is
TL>TL> legal if it dosn't comply with constitutional constraints. Maybe
TL>TL> you missed that day in civics class.
TL>
TL> KDM> No, I imagine my Government teacher was much more knowledgeable
TL> KDM> then you are, or will ever be.
TL>
TL> In teaching double standards perhaps.
KDM> Well, he was a flaming liberal, as he liked to say.
TL> KDM> What action violated Constitutional constraints?
TL>
TL> Driving a tank thru a residence occupied by men, women and children
TL> took the lives and property of some of them with apparent disregard
TL> for 'due process.' In America, you, and govt, are constitutionally
TL> forbidden to take innocent life (the kids) just because your boss
TL> said 'do it.'
KDM> They attempted to grant them due process. The Dividians refused
KDM> to accept it.
None of which creates CONSTITUTIONALLY legal justification for govt agents
to run tanks (armored assault vehicles) thru a residence occupied by INNOCENT
children.
KDM> What were the government agents supposed to do,
We employ and pay THEM to figure out what to do that is CONSTITUTIONALLY
legal. If govt agents can't figure out a CONSTITUTIONALLY legal way to
do a job they should quit taking the paycheck and should resign.
TL>TL> KDM> What rank? If I remember correctly, that defense is a
TL>TL> KDM> applicable to people under a certain rank.
TL>
TL> ANOTHER day you missed in civics class, apparently.
KDM> Ah, I see. We are talking about two different things. The
KDM> Dividians did not want to accept their rights under the law, so
KDM> there was no reason to attempt to give them to them again.
TL> Every PERSON is accountable under constitutionally authorized law for
TL> the harm they do to another. Even Nazi grunts were held accountable
TL> at Nuremberg.
KDM> That wasn't Constitutional law, Terry.
What're you claiming here? That the U.S. Constitution somehow allows American
govt agents to get away with stuff that even the Nazi soldiers were brought
to justice over?
Can you actually DO abstract thinking; or is this all just over your head?
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 19 Mar 96 11:31:12
EID:c119 20735be0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed827e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314ccf49
Preston Simpson wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
DW> Lie #1: There were no tanks at Waco. There were a few AFVs.
TL> Armored Personell Vehicle; a tank to the rest of us. What's your next
TL> denial tactic, correct my spelling?
PS> Not quite; an AFV (that's Armored Fighting Vehicle) is not quite an
PS> APV-- there is a considerable difference in terms of armament and
PS> troops carried.
[yawn response to tedious denial tactic]
PS> Oh, and it's hardly a denial tactic. The use of the word "tank" to
PS> describe a vehicle that clearly isn't is misleading. A good example
PS> of an MBT would be the M1A1 Abrams, a far cry from the M2 Bradley.
PS> (The Bradleys are what were present at Waco, if you didn't know).
I'm sure these are meaningful distinctions in a professionaal or hobby context.
In this context, millions watched, on TV, what they percieved to be 'TANKS'
battering that residence occupied by men, women and children.
Your attempt to shift focus to nitpicking distinctions are irrelevent in
this context. To the average person that looked like, and went thru the
wall like a TANK.
"I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and children
and having a big
****------------> tank <----------------------****
coming through the front door. And they penetrated a room's length or more...
This is America. This isn't a police state. I don't care what they did.
I can't see that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't realize the
****------------> tanks <-------------------****
had done that until I was shown by the govenment," she said.
- Juror at trial of surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press
story in Mar 1, 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
Some of the children we were 'saving' DIED this way.
Should the 'tank' drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
they
'were just following orders?'
Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have been NO
criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [1/2] Waco Rememberance
|Date: 19 Mar 96 12:45:33
EID:b8bd 207365a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed827f
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 278b902b
Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
>>> Part 1 of 2...
-=> Quoting Terry Liberty-parker to Jim Germiquet <=-
TL> Did someone put a gun to these agent's heads, to FORCE them to take
TL> these govt jobs?
JG>
JG> You really missed the point entirely. You know a lot of people say
JG> that they would rather have an employee that made mistakes, because
JG> at least it showed he was making the effort to DO something
Ther's no CONSTITUTIONALLY legal option 'to DO something' like run a tank
thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
JG> instead of just sitting on his butt criticising what others are
JG> doing.
Regardless of being in a 'sitting' position or not, the job of the citzen
is to keep his mouth open with critism.
JG> I am sure that if they had not sent in the tanks and then gotten
JG> in the next day and found a bunch of dead bodies, you would now be
JG> screaming "they should have busted down the wall, they should have
JG> busted down the wall,
Not I; though I'm sure some would have.
JG> they killed those children by their inaction"
There's a difference between not preventing a death vs causing one.
JG> I simply refuse to believe that all these people are so calloused
JG> that they would deliberately murder children for no reason . So
JG> you tell me what horrible reason would motivate the government to
JG> ruthlessly murder children?
I said 'manslaughter;' I didn't say 'murder.' If it comes out during the
trial that KILLING was indeed INTENDED, I'm sure the charges can be escalated.
TL> Imagine the environment created in that residence by OUR employees.
TL> The smoke induced blinding, from CS gas and fire, combined with
TL> collapsing structural supports and stairs, to disorient the occupants
TL> thus trapping them.
JG>
TL> Some died from smoke inhalation, some from live burning, some from
TL> weapons wounds (trial did not determine source), some from tank induced
TL> blunt force trauma to the skull.
JG>
JG> I agree, that is a terrible picture. But so is the sight of bodies
JG> blown to bits by a suicide bomber.
TL> As far as I know, our govt dosn't employ 'suicide bomgers; at least
TL> not publicly. The point is that WE are responsible for the actions
of
TL> OUR official employees, the govt agents.
JG> Again the POINT was that perhaps the govt was afraid that Koresh
JG> who was OBVIOUSLY in my opinion mentally unbalanced , was capable
JG> of killing everyone in there and himself in a murder suicide plot.
He had 51 days to do that, so it's not 'obvious' that murder suicide was
about to happen. Govt's cover story to that effect is BOGUS in that the
tank assault started early morning and persisted for hours.
Murder suicide could have been done during those many hours, days and even
months before the siege.
JG> Obviously they miscalculated and I believe INADVERTANTLY caused the
JG> death of these children.
That's called 'manslaughter' when you and I do it; then we get our day in
court to explain it to a jury.
JG> I agree that their jobs should be at stake for this miscalculation.
JG> But I would not just brand them as "child killers".
That's what they did. I didn't say 'murder.'
JG> I think there intent was to save the children, not harm them.
And just like you and me, they should get to tell it to a jury. Do you
believe they are some kind of elite force that's excused from the same laws
that the rest of us live under; an 'accidental' killer elite?
JG> And to label the criminal as a "victim" is also a pathetic attempt
JG> to cast aspirtions on those honorable men who risk their lives
JG> daily to serve and protect all citizens.
In what way are, or were, the CHILDREN who died, from govt tank induced
blunt force trauma to the skull, 'CRIMINAL?'
JG> And why these maniacs chose armed resistance with women and
JG> children, rather than surrendering to the authorities.
TL> Thye are not our employees. We are not accountable for thier actions.
TL> No amount of discounting these people would justify running tanks thru
TL> a residence occupied with men, women and children.
JG> This has been responded to,
You've said NOTHING that excuses or justifies running tanks thru a residence
occupied by men, women and children.
JG> and the justification was there to take action
a TANK assault?
JG> the action "may" be questionable, especially in terms of location.
JG> preparation and timing.
Do tell! That's why the tank drivers should be indicted and tried; to ascertain
guilt or innocence.
JG> That is not a judgement that you are authorized to make.
Oh yes it is! 'Judgements' ARE what we are constitutionally 'authorized
to make' about civil servants who harm people.
Otherwise we are in a POLICE STATE.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:00:30
EID:3252 20737000
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed8280
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 278b902c
Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
JG> I tend to agree that this was a bad move, and that the people
JG> responsible should lose their jobs for not finding a better method
JG> of resolving the situation. Unless you can prove otherwise however,
JG> I will give them the benefit of a doubt that they felt that a
JG> murder suicide similar to the Jimmy Jones thing was an immediate
JG> possibility. And based on the "armed" resistance to law enforcement
JG> officers in the performance of their duties.
TL> Is THAT your method of 'looking the other way?'
JG> No it is my way of saying, there was a possibility of danger to the
JG> children. The authorities had to make a decision. They made it to
JG> the best of the knowledge available to them at that time hindsight>
'Not hindsight' but apparently mind reading on your part.
JG> It turned out to be a bad move.
Running a TANK thru a residence occupied by men, women and children might
'turn out to be bad move;' not hindsight, but forsight.
JG> There is no evidence of intent to harm the children.
'Intent' is something hopefully discovered at a trial of someone who harms
another. We already know they DID the harm.
JG> In fact I believe the intent was to save the children. My
JG> recommendation ? Try to get more reliable information on your
JG> target before you hit it. In this instance the should have done
JG> some kind of recon on the area they were going ot hit with the
JG> tank, to make sure innocent victims would not be in the area hit.
Hello, earth to Jim?
They already knew 'innocent' children were in there. They were telling
the rest of us that as a pretext for the 'rescue' operation.
Oh duahh!!
JG> However that can also be difficult with COWARDS like
JG> Koresh, who use children as a shield to protect themselves !
TL> The place to make the case you present as a defence for the actions
of
TL> govt agents is at a trial of those agents for manslaughter.
JG> No it is at an investigation or inquiry to see if indeed there were
JG> better more viable options considering the situation AT THE TIME,
Irrelavent. There is NO justification for driving a tank thru a residence
that you know is occupied by men, women and children.
JG> not after the results have been recorded. If there is any evidence
JG> that the intent was to murder people and not rescue people or
JG> aprehend criminals, then you might have a case for manslaughter
JG> charges.
No. That would be a case for MURDER charges. There is plenty of publicly
seen evidence of reckless endangerment; thus MANSLAUGHTER charges.
TL> Do you want to live in, and have your kids live in, an America where
TL> govt agents can do things that would get citizens arrested without
TL> those agents being held to the same accountablility as any OTHER
TL> citizen?
[spiritual masturbation text deleted to conserve focus]
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 19 Mar 96 14:25:35
EID:f462 20737320
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 14ed8282
Norb