God Damned Fundies!
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: [1/2] WHAT??
|Date: 23 Mar 96 19:13:00
EID:df21 207799a0
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to J.j. Hitt <=-
JH> NASA said "no" and promptly pissed away 25 MILLION dollars designing
JH> a toilet of their own. (For 25 million dollars they could have
RB> How much is that per dump?
I don't know, but if they could make it a pay toilet they could probably
pay for the space program for several centuries.
... What's all this fuss about endangered feces?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: ABORTION
|Date: 23 Mar 96 19:24:00
EID:7d37 20779b00
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Judith Bandsma <=-
SA> Your dog gave you a SPANKING for being bad? ROFL! Oh, sorry.
SA> Oh, that's too rich. :)
Not for being bad...for being LATE with her breakfast. If an animal will
do that for a bowl full of kibble, how can anyone think you could get one
to fast?
And yes, Rosie whacks me regularly. She also likes to lay on the floor
pretending she's asleep and then reach out a paw to trip me when I try to
go around her. She may be more related to coyote than wolf.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:22:37
EID:fea2 20789ac0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3155e74c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Craig ZOG wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> MC> I'm beginning to believe that Pat Robertson and his Christian
PS> MC> Coalition, are a Zionist front organization.
PS> Nobody cares what you believe, as you are a moron of the
PS> first water.
MC> Your "mama" is calling you.
Is this your best, "Mark"?
... AD&D Quote: "What's a `pantheon', and why is it mad at me?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Preston's temper tantrum.
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:22:37
EID:1d07 20789ac0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3155e74d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Sue Armstrong Preston's temper tantrum. wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> The five-pointed star, though not mentioned by name, appears in "At
PS> the Mountains of Madness." I'm not sure where else, but I'll dig for
PS> the answers if you like.
SA> Speaking of which, ever see the flick "In the Mouth of Madness"
SA> with Sam Neill? It looks like a really cheesy movie at the
I've heard about it, but not yet seen it.
SA> outset, but it turned out to be really quite good, if you like
SA> Lovecraft's stuff. It's running on our movie network now, so
SA> it's probably on US cable systems (like HBO, perhaps, or
SA> Showtime) too, and is on videotape. Lots of fun. :)
So I've heard. Maybe I'll actually get to see it one day.
... "Bother," said Pooh as he was frozen in carbonite.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: MONDO-Tacky
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:31
EID:978e 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605fb
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Re: MONDO-Tacky wgah'nagl fhtagn.
NS> I grok this completely. I have a pair of hamsters next to my desk in
NS> a high-rise cage. We have to use twist-ties to keep the two doors
NS> closed, and they're very inventive (for being such obviously stupid
NS> beasts) at trying to escape. Ah, but they're cute . . . I guess the
Of course. However stupid they may be, rodents are geniuses at getting out
of cages.
NS> beer in the water bottle wouldn't be bad, if you could stand the
NS> drunken rodent singing. Nocturnal animals are hard to break from
The high-pitched squeaky voice would be the worst.
... "Bad news mom, I sold my soul to the devil." - Calvin
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:31
EID:cc6c 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605fc
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Re: Your Daily Murder wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Fun fact: Germany's biggest trade partner before the outbreak of WWII
PS> was France. It doesn't always stand to reason that an ally will remain
PS> as such.
NS> Quite cowardly, isn't it? Scarey too, knowing that there are lots of
NS> people like this out there who would just look the other way . . .
Definitely so, but courage and nobility are not traits found in all
specimens of h. sapiens sapiens.
PS> Shallow because I insist that rape is wrong and those who claim
PS> otherwise for any reason are worthless animals who are a detriment to
PS> the species? Well. Damn me for having principles.
NS> How _dare_ you? }:)
Yeah. It's a horrible offense, especially when my principles don't line
up
with his. Woe is me, for surely I am in the employ of Satan himself.
PS> By killing kids?
NS> You're surprized at his response? He just makes my skin crawl, I
Not really. I rather expected it from such a testosterone-crazed coward.
NS> tell you, when I read the justifications for rape, enslavement,
NS> killing, women-beating, etc. You made good points, consistently, and
NS> I think you're ahead on points alone. Now if you could just get a
NS> knock out!
I'm working on it, but I choose not to kill his family and torch his house,
so he might yet win by fighting dirty.
... Famous DM Farewells: "It hits and...hold on, I need more dice"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:f810 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605fd
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell A LITTLE HELP FROM SP wgah'nagl
PS> fhtagn.
NS> BTW, what is this? ^^^^^ Is it the Lemurian recipe for Spam or
NS> something?
The original phrase is "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl
fhtagn," which is often translated as "In his house at R'lyeh dead
Cthulhu lies dreaming." It's a popular line from the Mythos.
PS> 7 billion? I thought the world only had 6. Sheesh, I guess somebody's
PS> been busy.
NS> Oops, sorry! I'll try to pace myself . . . };)
"Somewhere in this world there is a woman giving birth every nine
minutes. She must be found and stopped." --Some famous guy.
... You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: 1 god
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:b5c2 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605fe
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Re: 1 god wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> If you had read the bible and followed the plan of salvation laid
BJ> out for us in the book of Acts, then turned away from God;
BJ> You are a fool!
PS> MAT 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
PS> without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever
PS> shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but
PS> whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
PS> Break out the asbestos suit, Brad.
NS> Touche flambe . . . }:)
Thank you, thank you. Most irritating was the fact that he didn't respond
to it. Perhaps he saw my rebuke and self-immolated.
... Cthulhu loves me, this I know; the Necronomicon told me so.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
12/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Re: Friends
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:c2ae 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605ff
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Johnston Re: Friends wgah'nagl fhtagn.
-> BJ> I am sorry to hear about your so called friends! First off, this
-> BJ> is the religious debate echo and I should exercise my rights to
-> The important point, bunky, is that you have *no* right to preach
-> here. It is a privilege, not a right.
DJ> Oh come on. When has the "privilege" of displaying one's stupidity
DJ> here ever been revoked for anyone for any reason here?
It's happened more than once, usually because some dipshit wouldn't follow
the echo guidelines. Ask Styx or someone with a better memory than mine
for
details.
... "Oh, bother", said Pooh, as the BATF destroyed his honey pot.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:58fb 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31560600
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Marty Leipzig Waco Rememberance wgah'nagl fhtagn.
ML> The "Guns and Liquor" Store in Uvalde carries 00 buck (~8 .32
ML> caliber slugs in one nice, neat little package), 000 buck (~6
ML> .44 as above) and even 0000 buck (~4 .50 caliber slugs). For
ML> real stopping power, try a 3.5" 10 gauge magnum rifled deer
ML> slug.
There's such a thing as 0000 buck? Damnation--must be some *big* deer
out that way.
ML> Or, just say "The Hell with it." and load up the ol' Glock 10
ML> mm.
Or the GAU-8, but those aren't exactly man-portable.
... 105 mm, when you care enough to send the very best.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:a043 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31560601
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Selena Kerr Re: The end? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Who are the likely candidates to kick off a nuclear war any time
PS> soon?
SK> I don't know why they would do that.. it doesn't say WHY in the
SK> books.. it just says what will happen. Maybe it will have something
Helpful hint: Nobody that I know of knows exactly *what* Nostradamus
was predicting, if anything. To read the quatrains in the original
requires an extensive knowledge of Old French, Latin, and other languages.
Most likely, everything that you've read is a translation or interpretation
and thus prone to the interpreter's bias.
SK> to do with Tiwans independance and the whole world will get involved?
Why the hell would someone start lobbing around nukes just because Taiwan
is independent?
... Unknown Error on Unknown Device for Unexplainable Reason.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:16:44
EID:c222 20783200
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 1446954b
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAN CEPPA to JESSE JONES on 03-20-96
DC>-> On 03-19-96 06:02, Jesse Jones got back to Steve Quarrella
DC> JJ> yourself. You do not press any buttons. You lack the
DC> JJ> intelligence to do so. You are a minor annoyance.
DC>So, Jesse, just how long did it take for you an Mikey to
DC>collaborate on this latest venture of yours?
Has Steve Q possessed your body again, Dan? I have not the
slightest idea what you are talking about.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/23/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
Can I yell 'movie' in a crowded firehouse??
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:f637 207730e0
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to Jim Germiquet <=-
LB> Good points Jim. I just wanted to add that there is a difference
LB> between those that profess to be Christian and those that practice
LB> Christianity. In one case we know that the person is a Christian
LB> because he tells us he is, in the other case, we know the man is
LB> christian by his actions and his attitude, he doesn't have to tell us.
LB> And as far as the Crusades or an abortion bomber, sure these people
LB> believed in Jesus and believed they were Christians, but does the
LB> action match what Jesus said for us to do? If not, then their actions
LB> are very unchristian and rightly should be condemned. As far as the
LB> Crusades goes, the main purpose of most of them was not religious,
but
LB> were for money and power.
LB>
LB> Larry Bevard
Larry, the only thing I would add to this is that we don't know who the
real christians are. Only god knows that. Jesus said many will come and
say they did all kinds of things in his name. And he will say "Depart
from me, I knew you not."
I am sure you know the whole story. My point is that sometimes even doing
good works, does not prove you are a christian. It is the MOTIVE behind
those good works, and ONLY GOD knows that. If your good works were only
for a pat on the bakc or a seat in heaven, then they will get you nothing.
Those good works must be done simply because they are the "right thing to
do".
On the other hand, if you do something that you believe god doeesn't want
you to, it doesn't matter whether anyone else thinks it is a sin or not.
The story of the meat offered to idols is a good example of this.
One person can eat meat offered to idols and it is not a sin. Another person
can eat the same meat and it is a sin. The sin is not in eating the meat.
In
this case, the sin was in fact that the person eating the meat believed
that god did not want him to do it, but he did it anyway.
The underlying principle is, that its whats inside that counts :-)
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: [1/2] [1/2] Re: Tithe
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:1995 207730e0
>>> Part 1 of 2...
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to Jim Germiquet <=-
LB> Jim,
JG>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>
JG>The point is that yes we have hungry people. SHould we then sell all
the
JG>artifacts in our museums, and open them up as hostels ? Should we take
all
JG>the money from scientific groups trying to find dinosaur bones for
JG>our museums, and use it to feed hungry people ? Should we as people,
or
JG>institutions or churches, give away all our money to the poor and become
JG>poor ourselves, and unable to help anyone else ?
LB> I believe a bigger share should go to the helping the poor.
Each of us must answer personally to god. The question will always
remain , how much of what we have should we give to god ?
As I went on to explain, A person with a 100 dollar income who
gives $10 is making a big sacrifice. For a person who makes $1million
dollars, although the accepted practice is 10% they may feel quite
comfortable giving 50%. Or they may think it wiser to use the other
40% as a foundation to be able to continually help people rather
than giving it all away and then having nothing left to help others
until their next $1million dollar paycheck.
JG>People who give money to their church, are certainly helping
JG>the poor that those churches support. But that money also pays the rent
JG>for that church. It pays to keep it clean. It pays to make it look
JG>beautiful. How much nicer is it to be in a church with a choir dressed
in
JG>blue robes instead of ragged shirts and blue jeans. And these people
JG>pay for this priviledge.
LB>
LB> Why do we need fancy Churches and any robes? My Church meets in a
LB> converted house, with another house being used for the class building.
LB> We don't have any organ, or choir. We do have a old van that we use
LB> to pick up kids around town to come to Wed. nite bible study. Total
LB> spent on houses and van is $30000, all payed for. And, I might add,
LB> we have wonderful services.
And what is the income of your church ? The point being, that you don't
have to live like a beggar to do the work of god. God didn't require
Solomon to live with " an old van, and no organ or choir". But I am sure
that
Solomon used his riches to the glory of God. It isn't how much money you
have or give, other than giving God whatever he asks. And neither you
nor I can judge whether Solomon was doing that. It isn't how much we have,
but what we do with it. Again if a person gives everything he owns away
to
the poor, he would soon be in a position where he could no longer help
anyone.
JG>Just as you might pay to have a nice house or apartment to live in,
JG>instead of a rundown ramshackle shack. SHould you sell your nice house
JG>or move to a cheaper apartment so that you can give all that extra
JG>money to the poor ? No... you take a portion of your money, and you
JG>use it to help those less fortunate, you do not become poor yourself
JG>to do so.
LB>
LB> As a Christian, our first duty in the church is to provide for
LB> orphains and widows. The Bible also teaches that ALL we have is a
LB> gift from God, so we shouldn't worry about how nice a house we live
LB> in, or how poor we are (or look). The Important thing is to do God's
LB> will in our life. We can sell all we have, yet we still have the job
LB> that God provided, and we have helped many people with the proceeds
of
LB> the sale. How rich in blessings we become. And isn't that more
LB> important?
But you can only judge what god is telling you to do. Maybe that is not
what God wants everyone else to do. Perhaps he entrusts some people with
great wealth, because they have shown that they use it responsibly to
further his kingdom. WHo says those rich churches haven't provided for
their orphans and widows ? Again with a firm foundation you can continue
to provide that support. The richer you remain, the more people you can
help.
JG>The same with churches. They should strive to set an example of what
JG>serving god can provide for us. Everyone giving a portion to help
JG>others. The more you are given and have, the more you can give others.
JG>Now look at this 10% idea.
LB> You idea is fine, and I wished all people and churches practiced
LB> this. But, rules are made to be broken. During the flood here in
LB> Iowa in 1993, our church collected and passed out $3/4 million worth
LB> of money and goods. Not a penny of this went for our own use, no new
LB> van, no new carpeting. It all went to non-christian families that
had
LB> lost everything in the flood so that they might get back into shape.
LB> Regularly, we will take money that was meant for other things,
LB> including our own money, and provide emergency food, clothing, shelter
LB> for a family that is in trouble. Several times, us who had some extra
LB> money had to come up with some funds to be able to pay the bills, or
LB> we had to take a short term loan so that we could help others not even
LB> in our church.
I seem to have lost the point of this paragraph other than telling me
of your sacrifice and self-denial. In itself, that is wonderful, but it
loses it's value if that was all it was for. Is it anyless wonderful if
the money came from a richer church ? And who is to say, that was the
purpose god used you for, while he uses another church for a different
purpose.
JG>JG>Or is it possible that some members of the church like to see their
JG>JG>choir in robes, and tithe to provide them. Or maybe some church
JG>JG>members appreciate a warm beautiful building to worship God in and
JG>JG>tithe some of their hard earned money for it.
JG>
JG>KW> Honeybunch, they can do what ever they want, as long as they don't
JG>KW> expect me to buy their exercise in vanity as charity or a sign of
JG>KW> their piety.
LB> If that is what is important to these people, I feel sorry for the
LB> church. I always thought a church was a bunch of people that provides
LB> for one another and practices what Jesus did. If you notice, Jesus
LB> owned one cloak and had no house or anything else. Did it matter to
LB> Him. What did He say to the apostles when they were commenting on the
LB> beutiful buildings? What was His attitude toward a Fancy temple?
I think that Jesus comment was about what was going on in the temple,
more than the cost of it. But you will have to refresh my memory on'
the specific passage you are referring to. I don't think Jesus cares
whether we are rich or poor. For example he said slave do not desire
to be freemen and slave masters treat your slaves well. It isnt how
much money we have, as long as we do what god wants us to do with it.
LB> Yes, these people should be paid, as well as our ministers, but
LB> the big difference is in the amount that most TV Evangulast gets paid.
LB> A Fair wage should be provided, but in a lot of cases, these type of
And who decides what a "fair wage" is. There is a lot of talk about
selfish "athletes" like Wayne Gretzky who get paid millions of dollars
a year. They want a "salary cap" Now if you put a salary cap on these
athletes, and each of them on the team for example made $1million
dollars less, where would that money go ? To one greedy little owner
who would then have an extra 20million bucks to stick in his own
pocket. Now when wayne gretzky was traded to los angelos, the kings
made so much more money that Gretzky was voluntarily given a raise.
It was directly as a result of gretzky coming to L.A. that made that
extra $10million so why shouldnt he get it ?
LB> people takes millions. Then we see people like Dr. Dobson who takes
LB> NO wages for his ministry. He provides for himself thru the sales
of
LB> his books, and 50 % of that is donated back to the ministry. His is
LB> not poor, yet he trust in God to provide for him and his family thru
LB> his God given talant. There are many many missionaries that pay there
LB> own way to provide serves to others, they are poor. God made some
of
LB> us rich in order to provide more money to help, not to spend it on
LB> bigger and better buildings.
>>> Continued to next message...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: [2/2] [1/2] Re: Tithe
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:2ad1 207730e0
>>> Part 2 of 2...
And who is to be the judge of whether or not these people are doing
what god wants them to do ? Certainly, not you or I.
LB> What difference does it make in the long run whether we have a
LB> modern, showy building to meet in or if we meet under a tree? What
LB> difference in the long run does it make if we are rich (according to
LB> the worldly system) or poor?
LB>
LB> Just some things to think of.
Exactly ! What difference does it make ? So why be critical of those who
choose to worship in a showy building ? What difference does it make, as
long as you are doing with the rest of the money what God wants you to
do, with the money gives you as a reward, you can do as you wish, including
by robes for your choir :-)
... He's got Blue Wave fever and it's spreading through the message bases!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:e978 207730e0
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
>DR> Liar.
JG> Oh so now you are an expert on the teachings and words of
JG> Jesus Christ?
DR> So, you molest sheep, Jim?
DR> You claimed to know what Jesus said, not what "Jesus Christ"
DR> said. I pointed out that you are a liar, since Jesus had no
DR> concept of what a "Christian" is.
JG> And Does the person claiming to be Christian adhere to
JG> the teachings of Jesus Christ ?
You know , your whole arguement has to do with claiming there is no
Jesus, and your wierd comment about molesting sheep ?
First, you are just playing word games. Of coarse Jesus's last name
was not "Christ", that was just a descriptive word used to denote
who Jesus was in terms of his purpose in the world, and not to of
course confuse him with such people as Jesus Barabas. It is irrelevant
in any case. God is the spirit of Truth and Love. Jesus was the
physical embodiment of that truth and love. You can go through denial
for the rest of your life. You are only trying to fool yourself. Do
you think I give to hoots about your biblical scholarship. The
pharisees and sadducees were far more schooled than you, and Jesus
called them snakes and vipers. Your knowledge of the bible is absolutely
USELESS because you have no idea what the SPIRIT of those words are.
You cannot interpret them properly because your heart is so full of
fear of the truth. You are so puffed up with pride , that you could
never admit you are wrong. It isn't me you have to answer to , it is
GOD , it is the TRUTH that you refuse to answer to. Not MY truth, but
the truth that God right now is laying upon your heart, and you are
fighting so desperately to DENY !
It is really sad. All God wants to do is give you peace and joy, and
you would rather live this life of strife and bitterness. God is
crying for you. His heart is breaking because he loves you so much and
you refuse to believe it. How very very sad.
... I call things as I see them; If I didn't see them, I make them up!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Rice
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:7dc3 207730e0
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> It is just the experiences and thoughts of the learned
JG> men of that day and age in history.
DR> They were ignorant, uneducated, superstitious imbicles who
DR> believed in magick and occult nonsense. The authors of the
DR> Bible have nothing of any value to say to us. Sorry.
Maybe they were technologically ignorant, but they wrestled with
exactly the same spiritual problems we deal with today.
Whether you call it "demon possesion" or "neurosis" it is the same
thing. Whether you kill with a spear or an uzi, it is steal because
of the same spiritual wickedness, of greed, laziness, hatred. That
hasn't changed one bit. And neither has religion. There are still
those who use it as a political tool to manipulate people and others
who are sincere in following it as a way of life, and of course there
are still people like you around, trying to denounce it because the
goodness of it makes your lies and hatred stand out for what it is.
The very comments you make as you write your messages. The insults,
the ridiculing, show what motivates you,
DR> Now then. Answer the question. Who gives a shit what the
DR> Bible says?
People who care about spiritual values like , love, truth,
peace, joy , faith and hope.
JG> Who cares what Solomon said."
People who care about spiritual values and want to know how to live
their lives in a spiritually wise way.
DR> What kind of imbicle, while writing the Bible, would think
DR> bats have feathers?
Now tell me the exact date that birds were DEFINED as any animal
with FEATHERS ????? I am positive, that is a relatively modern
definition. I am sure at one time a whale was considered a big fish.
DR> ROTFL! You're the drooling, busted shit pipe who has been
DR> spewing the inanities.
Once again you prove why you cannot understand or believe in the
bible and it's spiritual truths. Your life must be a very sad one
to have such a ridiculing , disrespectful attitude toward others.
JG> Everytime you get on an airplane, you have FAITH that the
JG> airplane will not crash , or you wouldn't get on it. You
JG> have faith for a REASON ! You know from experience airplanes
JG> can fly and that only a small percentage crash. You have
JG> faith that this one won't !!!
DR> If you insist on redefining words to suit your occult beliefs
DR> and bolster your weak arguments, no one will even try to take
DR> you seriously.
I see no redefining of words at all in the above.
faith ...dic def... complete confidence or trust.
Whether that is in an "airplane" or in "god", there has been no
redefining of words. Clarifying the specific meaning of the word,
does not mean redefining it.
DR> Your occultism (i.e. "faith") cannot, by the very deffinition
DR> of the word, include logic and reason.
DR> FAITH (n): Belief that does not rest on logical proof or
DR> material evidence.
JG> Faith in god, works the same way. You[sic] hear the words
JG> of god, and you[sic] reason whether they are reasonable
JG> to you[sic].
DR> Since no one hears these gods of your speaking, your
DR> hallucinations are your own problem. See a psychiatrist.
JG> Then if they are you[sic] act upon them. If the results
JG> are favorable, you[sic] have a stronger faith that the
JG> words of god are reliable.
DR> Keep your occult delusions to yourself.
>>JG> Of course Faith[sic] knows reason.
>DR> Then it isn't faith.
JG> I have shown above that it is.
DR> You have been demonstrated, by me, to be wrong. Adjust your
DR> occult beliefs accordingly.
Only in your mind and your fellow atheists who must cling to their
belief there is no god, because they are so afraid that if they admit
there is they would either have to do what is right, or go to hell.
It is so much easier to do what you want and deny the existence of god.
JG> Whether or not you believe that these writings are actual
JG> letters to various churches, is up to you. I rather doubt
JG> that you are an authority on the subject.
DR> I know that your cult manufactured the Jesus myths for its
DR> own evil agenda.
90 % of your message is this same kind of drivel. where you claim
to have some extensive knowledge of bible history, when you probably
have know personal knowledge and are just spewing out some anti
bible rhetoric in your stanic bible or something.
You simply CHOOSE to believe in anything at all except a god of truth
who you fear intensely.
You are like Adam in the bible. The first thing he did when he ate from
the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was try to HIDE from god.
That is what you are doing right now.
... Press now to access the pirate software.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:46
EID:a12f 207730e0
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Germiquet <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Martin Goldberg <=-
JG> Easy, Obesity is real, Obesity is hell ...therefore Hell is real !
JB> Fathead!
I really don't know why you stoop to name calling to avoid conceding
when a point has been made.
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:e240 207730e0
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
MG>> It's that simple. Where is your evidence for god?
JG> Well thank you very much, you have just given the evidence for my
JG> God. My God is that highly compressed ball of < matter???
JG> whats that? matter that expanded. TADA !
MG> You seem to have a simple philosophy.
I do try to keep it as simple as possible :-)
All I was saying is that whatever science says everything started
from, will do quite nicely to describe my "god the creator" :-)
I have always concidered science to just be those who discover what
gods creation is and how he put it together .
Leave the why and the wherefore, to religion .
Maybe even philosophy.
... Security, confine Ensign Goldberg to the brig.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:46
EID:34bf 207730e0
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Germiquet <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Judith Bandsma <=-
JG> Exactly and at the time these "canals" were discovered, I was told
JG> about them. Later the opinion was that these "canals" were the result
JG> of the instrument being used to study the planet.
JB> I absolutely refuse to believe that you are over 100 years old.
Eesh, again you pick on some irrelevent technical point and completely
ignore the concept within the message . just like the sadducees and
pharisees of the new testament that Jesus criticised.
... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 250/618 601 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:46
EID:f790 207730e0
JG> and your snide comments are not impressing me
JG> either , in fact I personally consider them as rather rude and
DC> Tough shit.
JG> these extraneous comments, will earn you the great honor of being
JG> added to my twit list.
DC> You'd twit your own mother if she didn't agree with you.
Twitting you has nothing to do with your not agreeing with me. Everyone
has a right to their own opinion. YOU do not however have the right to
verbally abuse people that YOU do not agree with. I will ASSERTIVELY
leave you after this post.
DC> If you need help in setting up your file, see Mikey Hardy. He's
DC> having problems with his.
DC> Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
I was hoping you would comment on the TWIT thing. And no I won't
let the door hit me in the ass on my way out, I will close it
politely, something I don't think you would be able to recognize
anyway.
Goodbye, and have a nice forever.
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:56:59
EID:bf11 20783700
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643ae4f3
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314ad019
On Mar 16 14:26 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
NS>> BTW, does this mean that you and JJ have to duke it out,
NS>> since he's risen from the grave and is therefore probably
NS>> a Messiah as well? Or will you both open a little shop
NS>> off the mall together?
DW> With 7 billion people in the world, I think there are
DW> enough followers for both of us.
Besides, who are you going to have Holy Wars with if everyone
is on your side?
Which was one of the major problems in Salem, MA. With no
real enemies around to persecute them, the Puritans had to
invent enemies within their own membership.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Ann Nunn
|Sub: the basis of morality
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:11:50
EID:6ad5 20783960
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643b1dad
REPLY: 1:396/93.0 89440F97
On Mar 17 21:50 96, Ann Nunn of 1:396/93 wrote:
AN> Not so; morality is not derived from one's view of any
AN> deity, but from one's view of how best to get along in a
AN> social context.
While I'm inclinded to agree, I'd also have to add that an
act is "moral" or "immoral" depends largely on the system in
which it occurs.
Did the first settler who shot a buffalo, cut out it's tounge for
supper and left the rest of the carcass to rot commit an immoral
act? I'd be inclinded to say no. (Those screams you hear are
comeing from Sue Armstrong.) Yet as the supply of buffalo dwindled
such an act had greater and greater consequences to the species,
the environment and the people who depended on the buffalo. It
became less and less moral.
In short, it isn't the act that is immoral, but the effect the
act produces. What can have disasterous effects in one setting
may have no effect whatsoever in another setting.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: hi
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:39:36
EID:1336 20783ce0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643b53a5
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org fd59ba8b
On Mar 22 13:04 96, Katherine Wintersnight of 1:381/123@fidonet.org wrote:
SA> I'd love the excuse to go see Texas, though. I love praries and
SA> deserts and wide open spaces, almost as much as I like
SA> mountains. Oh, yeah, and meeting you folks would be neat, too.
KW> From Canada TX would be quite a haul, several days by road.
KW> When you factor in food and such, it might be as cheap to
KW> fly. BTW, TX has mountains. TX seems to have a little bit
KW> of everything, save tundra. :)
I felt on commenting on Sue's message but never got around to it.
It should be pointed out that if she is interested in seeing desert,
San Antonio is going to be a disappointment.
KW> The problem is finding any place that most of the
KW> people here can get to without major expense and trouble.
KW> New Orleans was suggested, but that was shot down due to the
KW> cost of accommodations.
How about Wichita, KS? It's centrally located. Shouldn't be
expensive. Doesn't overly favor any group of users by being
close to their hometown. And best of all, it's the home of a
notorious nutcase preacher.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: 'american 'athiest''
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:50:32
EID:d047 20783e40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643b7b4b
On Mar 19 15:44 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
MB>> It was at that point that I decided not to renew my membership.
MB>> I don't like fundy atheists any more than I like fundy
MB>> christers. And, after what the O'Hair family did to the
MB>> organization, running away with all its money, I could care
MB>> less who gives the organization a black eye. The O'Hairs have
MB>> it coming, so far as I'm concerned.
NS> Did they really do this? The official word that I've seen over
NS> on ATHIEST is that no money was missing, just that the O'Hairs
NS> were missing for no good reason, etc. I.e., they just wandered
NS> away, but everything's fine.
Like all of us, I'd love to know what the real story is. The fact
the organization was reported to have yanked several projects right
after the disappearance still smells like money trouble. When an
auditor says "no money is missing" it doesn't always mean the money
isn't gone, just that no laws were broken and that they can account
for where it went to. (It's amazing how well the words "for services
rendered" can cover your ass.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: John Salvi
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:33:08
EID:345f 20786c20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643e92d9
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3152e584
On Mar 22 13:24 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
DM> I noticed a strong resemblence between his behavior in
DM> court and that of Egel Amin ... Amir? The guy who
DM> assassinated Rabin. The calm stare of the self-assured
DM> playing god . . .
What struck me was his demanding press conferences and interviews on
national media even after his conviction. He obviously feels that
this is something he is entitled to, as if anyone (other than the
morbidly curious like myself) cared about what he had to say.
DM> Later you say to Anthony Grigor-Scott:
JH>> Are these broadcasts limited to Australia? Or are you on
JH>> shortwave?
DM> Out trolling to satisfy your addiction to the insanity
DM> of religious broadcasters, are you?
I find it extremely convenient to have these nutballs on the radio.
If they limited themselves to secret meetings in dimly lit
back-rooms it would be much harder to learn what they are up to.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Germy's fiance
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:50:28
EID:8b56 20786e40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643eb2ad
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 314fe49d
On Mar 19 05:10 96, George Rudzinski of 1:382/804 wrote:
GR> -=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>> That god knew what I would need many years ago and had prepared
JG>> my fiance at the time of her birth to grow up in such a way as
JG>> to meet my need the day I met her.
GR> This moron is going to jump into marriage without having a
GR> clue as to what marriage is all about.
I give it a year at the outside (ok, maybe two years).
But when the marriage fails, as it inevitably will, he'll have
a religious justification: he'll have discovered that she is
"of this world".
I've seen that phrase used so many times by Christians to explain
their failed relationships that I am convinced they would
prefer Martians as partners.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:57:54
EID:c5e5 20786f20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643ec71b
REPLY: 1:116/19 01F397A0
On Mar 19 08:02 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> Again, C.S. Lewis. "God does not shake miracles into Nature at
AS> random like a pepper-caster. They come on great occasions; they
AS> are found at the great ganglions of history--not of political
AS> and social history, but of that spiritual history which cannot
AS> be fully known by men.
I love that last clause he tacks onto it.
It renders his entire claim totally untestable.
"It's not random! It follows a pattern you can not perceive!"
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: MONDO-Tacky
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:11:54
EID:5521 20788960
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64408f5b
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3154ee26
On Mar 24 01:39 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
JH>> Does she have a place to hide inside her enclosure? Even
JH>> rats need a little privacy.
PS> She does, but not to the extent that she had formerly. When
PS> I had a recycled squeeze bottle (sans lid) in there, she
PS> used to get in it and stay there. Ordinarily, this would not
PS> be a problem, but she stayed in there almost all the time
PS> and was scared to death of everything, including me. Since
PS> I've removed it, she no longer exhibits such symptoms.
Put it in the cage/tank/whatever when you want to sleep.
Take it out when her being an active little rat won't
be a bother to you. Putting a cover over her quarters (such
as people do with bird cages) might help some also. Not so
much to create darkness, but to remove the impression that
she is in the open (and hence, visable to predators).
And hand-feed more often, she'll be less likely to be scared
of you if she associates you with diner-time.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Cubanitos, Habana style.
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:26:58
EID:b9f7 20788b40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6440af5a
On Mar 24 06:19 96, Marty Leipzig of 1:106/113 wrote:
JH>> The cusine is strictly cuban, mostly chicken with rice or beans
JH>> and cooked with tommatoes and other fruits. Seasoning ranges
JH>> from "mildly hot" to "burns yer ass" and on up to "leaves
JH>> scortch marks on table".
ML> I just love Cuban Coffee with Pisco. Enough caffeine to
ML> wake the city of the dead with a EtOh sidecar just for
ML> grins.
I still remember the first time I ordered coffee in Miami.
They brought me this little demitase (or however you spell the
name of those cups stollen from doll sets) and I sat there
waiting for them to bring the coffee.
I thought I was supposed to pour the little shotglass thingie
into the coffee when they brought it.
I like expresso, but those little fucking cups are for the birds.
If I order it, I want a mug full.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Come Together
|Date: 24 Mar 96 22:28:40
EID:654b 2078b380
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64439f75
On Mar 21 17:49 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
NS> But I remember EXACTLY where I was, etc., when I heard about
NS> John Lennon. The only other national happening that ever rocked
NS> me like that was the Challenger explosion. Since then, I'm very
NS> into John Lennon. He had a mind that was sharp, enough cash to
NS> not have to deal with idiots, and he was outspoken. Plus he was
NS> a poet.
And he never had to steal a 50's song to sell a record. Despite the
fact that the title officially belongs to Ringo Starr, George
Harrison has to be "The Stupid Beatle". Harrison took "He's So Fine"
and added NOTHING to the song other than a new title and a Hairy
Krisha chorus and thought he could pass it off as original work.
I've heard several "Contemporary Christian" re-mixes of 'My Sweet
Lord' (Harry Krishna being tastefully changed to Hallelujah). I
have to wonder who they pay royalties to... Harrison? The Chiffons?
Or do they just pocket the money? (Thank you, Jesus!)
NS> I used to think Jackson an okay performer too, I still have
NS> records (I tell my kids that they're giant black CDs) of the
NS> Jackson Five. But now I just see him as someone desperately in
NS> need of a good slap and a dose of reality.
I've hated Jackson since before his first nose job.
There's just something wrong about a grown man who dresses
like Sargent Peper and sleeps in an aquarium with a monkey.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Come Together
|Date: 25 Mar 96 02:57:26
EID:654b 20791720
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64460436
On Mar 21 17:54 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
JH>> And the Good Humor Ice Cream Man down here has been
JH>> replaced by the independent owner opperator of a beat up
JH>> van or panel truck outfited with a PA that plays a
JH>> music-box version of either "The Bells of Saint Mary's" or
JH>> "Turkey In The Straw". I hate these guys and thier music
JH>> boxes with a passion.
NS> Me too. If I had a job like that, I'm sure I'd be tempted
NS> to play something else over the PA system, perhaps some nice
NS> punk stuff like Lee Ving and Fear or The Cramps . . .
I actually got into a 15 minute shouting match with one of them
one Sunday morning before 0800 (who eats icecream for breakfast
anyway?). I offered to pay the guy a dollar to turn the music
off... This offened his Mexican sense of machismo. Somehow my
offer was the greatest dishonor to him, his mother, his grandmother,
all his little brown children and the broken appliances in his
front yard. He would rather die than take my dollar and NO, he
was not going to turn it off. He turned it up instead. I opened
another beer and started waving the dollar around....
It was a weird Sunday morning.
I wouldn't even mind it if the music mechanism was IN TUNE and
the PA system didn't distort and clip the damned thing to where
it sounds like a gun battle in an auto-salvage yard.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 25 Mar 96 03:44:38
EID:b121 20791d80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 644653c2
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3154223d
On Mar 22 22:51 96, Lynda Bustilloz of 1:109/601 wrote:
NS>> I can go that one better: I know that Glenda the Good
NS>> exists because I saw her on television. Wait . . . wait .
NS>> . . I can go that two
LB> Glinda the televangelist?
NS>> better: I know that Glenda the Good exists because I have
NS>> her action figure (I bought it at the Disney Store)! };)
LB> *gasp* Making idols out of Glinda the Good?!! This
LB> figurine you bought was obviously False Glinda Scum.
I *KNOW* Glenda exists. I carry her silly ass I_UFO echo.
And she is both "the Good" and "False Scum". It's a Sacred
Geometery-type Duality thing that has to do with spirals.
Take two Juju eyeballs and call me in the morning.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 24 Mar 96 10:40:00
EID:0118 20785500
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cb68e4a0
PS>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dan Ceppa FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> DC> Have some more fun, and take it easy on Preston. After all,
PS> DC> he just recently got his god diploma. As he can get testy and
PS>I'm still waiting for it to actually arrive. Testy? Me? I'm one of
PS>the kindest and gentlest people I know.
Why, Preston, you're downright cuddly. As a god, I've never seen you
demand more than the sacrifice of butterflies and fuzzy puppies.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Not a morning person' doesn't even begin to cover it!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:948a 20787500
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00108807
J.j.,
JH>On Mar 18 04:58 96, Larry Bevard of 1:3615/51 wrote:
JH>
JH>LB> So when God kills, or orders others to kill, it is to protect
JH>LB> His people and advance the world, when we kill it is usually
JH>LB> because of selfishness.
JH>
JH>Ahhh....
JH>
JH>When God kills it is to further His own interests.
JH>When a human kills it to further their own interests.
JH>
JH>Thank you, the difference is much clearer now.
I guess you could put it that way. I cannot make excusses for God,
but all I know is that God said for us not to kill, and that is good
enough for me.
take care,
Larry Bevard
___
* UniQWK v4.1 * The Windows Mail Reader
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 5
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:9d61 20787500
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00108821
David,
DR> -=> Quoting Larry Bevard to David Rice <=-
DR>
DR>>DR> FACT #1: no one knows what Jesus may have said, since
DR>>DR> he left no writings and there are no known
DR>>DR> records of what he might have said that were
DR>>DR> written by witnesses.
DR>
DR>LB> Upon greatest authority, both Christian and secular, the
DR>LB> letters as recorded in the New Testement are shown to be
DR>LB> authentic and at least Half of them, with no dispute, was
DR>LB> written by the people that we Christians say they were
DR>LB> written by, Paul, John, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew, Mark,
DR>LB> all witnesses to the life, death and risen life of Jesus.
DR>
DR>You are being silly.
DR>
DR>1) Saul of Tarsus ("Paul") never met Jesus.
DR>
DR>2) The authors of _Matthew,_ _Luke,_ _John,_ and
DR> _Mark_ are unknown: they are anonimous works,
DR> written by people who never met Jesus because
DR> they were not alive at the time. The best one
DR> may say is that one of two of them were writen
DR> by followers of a deciple.
No, your being silly. Internal evidence from the letters, as well
as accounts of writtings about them from the early church does indicate
that who we say wrote these letters are the ones that did write them.
John and Matthew were apostles, Mark and Luke lived and worked with
several of the apostles soon after the death of Jesus.
DR>3) Your "greatest authority" is bullshit.
DR>
DR>>DR> FACT #2: Jesus had no notion of what a Christian is,
DR>>DR> since the cult wasn't started unill several
DR>>DR> hundred years after he was stoned to death.
DR>
DR>LB> Joke right?
DR>
DR>I said nothing about your face.
And I said nothing about your intellegence. But, be that as it may,
the Christian movement was well established by 100 AD. The Roman Church
was started about 50 AD as was other Gentile Churches, to say nouthing
about the Jewish churches that was already well established by 40 AD.
DR>LB> Jesus was hung on a Cross[sic].
DR>
DR>There is no evidence for such a claim.
What, that Jesus was hung on a Cross or that there was a Jesus.
There is some evidence that Jesus lived and that He was crucified, but
since He was not a particularly famous person when He was alive, we
don't have as much evidence as say Caesar. Now, we only have a few
fleeting accounts as to His death at the hands of Brutus, but most
people don't question the account of his death.
DR>LB> And as far as a Church being started, the Christian
DR>LB> moment started 10 days after Jesus assended into Heaven
DR>
DR>Since people do not "assend into heaven," and since there are
DR>Christians in the world, your statement is self-contradictory.
I take it you don't believe in the bible, right?
DR>LB> which is 50 days after He[sic] had died and risen. Within
DR>LB> 20 years, there were Christians in every major city of
DR>LB> the Roman Empire.
DR>
DR>You have a real freaky idea of what "Christianity" is. The
DR>followers of Jesus, up until about 200CE, could AT BEST be
DR>called "Messianic Jews." Christianity came along much latter.
It is your understanding of Christian history that is faulty. As I
said above, by 100 AD, there were established Churches in most areas of
the Roman Empire. Only a part of these were Jewish or even followed
parts of the Jewish faith in their practice of Christianity. In fact,
by 100 AD most of the major jewish centers of Christianity had be
dispersed because of the Jewish uprising in 70 AD. leaving the Gentile
churches on their own. Now, if you are refering to the firm hold that
the Roman Church extablished on the Christian faith, that did not come
until after 325 AD, but there had been a lot of Christians before this.
DR>LB> The Followers of Jesus were originally refered to as
DR>LB> Followers of The Way. Later they became know as Christians,
DR>LB> i.e. followers of Christ.
DR>
DR>Hundreds of years later.
They were first called Christians in Antioch in 55 AD.
DR>>JG> And in a christian[sic] country the label "christian" is
DR>>JG> indeed useless because it is used as a social enhancement.
DR>
DR>>DR> A Christian is anyone who professes to be a Christian.
DR>>DR> There is no other known test for Christianhood.
DR>
DR>LB> Getting back to the original comment, we can know a
DR>LB> Christian by the way he acts.
DR>
DR>Since Christians disagree with you, your assertion is false.
You did not read very closely, I did not say that a Christian is a
Christian only if he acts as a Christian, I said that we would know a
Christian by his actions. This is Biblical and I very much doubt that
many Christians would disagree with it.
DR>LB> If he acts in a way that follows the teachings of the
DR>LB> Bible and what Christ would do, then we can be sure he
DR>LB> is Christian.
DR>
DR>Since hundreds of thousands of Christians call other hundreds
DR>of thousands of Christians "not real true Christians," your
DR>silly assertion is demonstrated false.
DR>
DR>LB> That is the test.
DR>
DR>The only test for Christianhood is to ask someone if she or
DR>he is a Christian.
DR>
DR>LB> But, you are correct in that until we know a person, if
DR>LB> he states he is a Christian, then we would have to accept
DR>LB> that and expect him to act as a Christian.
DR>
DR>Some Christians butcher people, and other Christians do not.
DR>Yet they are both Christians. Therefore your assertion is
DR>false.
DR>
DR>LB> But, if he fails to act the part, the we can question if
DR>LB> he is truly Christian.
DR>
DR>It is not for you to "question" any such thing.
So, If a liberal don't like jewish (or other groups) and don't hold
to liberal views, is he truly a liberal? And it is not I that would be
questioning whether a person that professes to be a christian, yet does
not act the part, is truly a Christian, it is his actions that speaks
against him. It is just like the Democrates that suddenly decided they
were republicans to get reelected. Were they truly Democrates?
DR>Now then. Don't you feel like a real stupid shit (again)?
Not particularly. Thank you for asking anyway.
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: children
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:5304 20787500
MSGID: 1:3615/51 0010883a
Steve,
SR>Larry Bevard wrote in a message to Kevin D. McKenzie:
SR>
SR>LB> do. We are to treat others as we would like to be treated, Love
SR>LB> each other as Jesus loved us.
SR>
SR>And like a good little sheep...you blindly follow what your myth-masters
tell
SR>you to do. Here let me adjust your ball-and-chain for you. Your ankles
are
SR>swelling a bit.
So, you are saying that treating others as well as we would like to
be treated is a bad thing? I pitty the people that has to be around you
. And, as far as being in chains to my faith, it is my faith that
has set be free, free from the malice and hatred, the distrust and
parinoa that I suffered from before I allowed Jesus into my life. I
don't blindly follow Jesus, I do so willingly and with full knowledge.
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Claims of deity construc
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:be3e 20787500
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00108853
J.j.,
JH>On Mar 18 04:59 96, Larry Bevard of 1:3615/51 wrote:
JH>
JH>LB> Try reading such books as "A brief History of Time" by
JH>LB> Stephen Hawkings and other modern astro-physics books that
JH>LB> explores time and the creation of the Universe.
JH>
JH>Got my copy right here in my fat little hand.
JH>You're going to regret mentioning that book, I assure you.
JH>
JH>LB> Very interesting discussion on the need for an outside force to
JH>LB> start the Big-Bang as well as an intellengece to guide the
JH>LB> creation to bring us to the point we are at.
JH>
JH>Give exact quote and page number.
JH>So sorry, but I'm calling your bluff.
JH>Give the exact quote and the page number where the above claim
JH>is allegedly made.
I was about to write an excuse that the Library sold their copy of this
book, but I checked with them and they still had it, so I bought it.
Your right, so far I have not found any discussion of a cause of the big
bang happening. I have read it before some where, but can't remember if
it was in his essays or in articles in Christian Discipleship magazine
or other places that I can't remember. As far as a design to the
Universe, you only have to refer to pp. 122-123 of "A Brief History of
Time" to see the question asked of why original conditions were as they
were. As a quote from Hawkings in John Boslough's book "Masters of
Time-Cosmology at the End of Innocence", states;
The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something
like the big bang are enormous...I think clearly there are
religious implications whenever you start to discuss the origins
of the universe. There must be religious overtones. But I
think scientists prefer to shy away from the religious side of it.
Also, page 125 of a Brief history of time, as well as His general
discussion of the other theories of Why?, where he generally debunks
these other ideas, presents a general picture that certain conditions
had to exist for the universe to be and for mankind to form.
JH>LB> He also points out that there has to exist an "outside" to the
JH>LB> universe in order for the Universe to expand, and that this
JH>LB> "outside" does not need to follow the rules of the inside.
JH>
JH>Again, substantiate this with Hawkings own words, not your
JH>half-assed notion of what you thought he was saying,
I was wrong, sorry, it isn't in this book. So again you got me. I
do remember this discussion so it must have been from the Christian
Decipleship magazine article. The point I was trying to develop was the
concept that using a real sense of what we know of Space-time, that in a
real sense there has to exist a boundry to the universe. From what I
remember of the discussion, Hawkings went on to define our understanding
of empty space. This he contrasted with defining the other space, the
one that the universe is expanding into, as very different. For one
thing, and this he hints at in "A Brief History of Time", time could not
exist outside of the universe. So, the other space has to be truly
empty. In this discussion also was the discussion of the creation of
time in the universe microseconds after the Big Bang. He discribes the
creation of multi-dimesions, 24 in all, until the universe finally
collapsed into the 4 we know. I'll continue looking for this article to
give you exact quotations.
JH>LB> Others have pointed out how the Biblical accounts discribe what
JH>LB> would be observed of the big-bang from the outside, as well as
JH>LB> discribe the true nature of the universe after creation.
JH>
JH>While you're at it, give the Biblical citations that describe the
JH>"Big Bang". Pay special attention to those that describe it "from
JH>the outside".
That I can do, hopefully to your satifaction. Gen. 1:1b.; "now the
earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep,
and the spirit of god was hovering over the waters." Now, since the
waters had not be seperated yet or star or the sun or moon had not been
created, this would have been a discription of what the whole universe
would have looked like before any other creation had taken place. The
King James gives a better discription, but I only have the NIV with me.
Fred Heeren, a Christian writer gave this discription to several
astro-physist and they were quoted in Fred's book, "Show Me God", as a
good discription of what the outside of the primorial singlarity would
have looked like as observed from outside. I know this is not much
proof, but taking into account the Jewish discription of the Universe as
being on three planes, earth, sky (including the stars) and the Heaven,
it is a biblical fit. Also discribed in the bible in several places,
including vss. 14 and 17 in Gen. 1, is the filiments of Heaven. This
word in the hebrew indicates a spreading out or expanding, which
discribes the expanding universe. There are a few other verses that
discribe the universe, but since the bible was never meant to be a
science book, a lot of details that we would like to have is missing.
One point is that toward the end of the book, "A Brief History of
Time", Hawkings develops an unified model of the Universe, one with no
begining or boundary. This is further discussed in his essays. But, as
pointed out in his book on p. 9, in his discussion of what a sceintific
theory is, Hawkings states, "...a theory is just a model of the
universe,...It exists only in our minds and does not have any other
reality (what ever that is)." In his essays, he states that his latest
theory does not reflect reality, in his theory, it does away with all
black holes or even possiblities of them existing, which is not reality.
Also, it uses such constructs as virtual particals and imaginary time
to make this model work, things that have not real counterparts. So,
just because the final theory does away with the need for a god to start
and control things, does not make it real. Hawkings is quoted in the
above magazine article, after a discussion of the newest partical that
accounts for the missing mass of the universe, that "if this does show
their is a God, then nouthing will."
The main function of science is to discribe the when, where and How.
The function of religion is to discribe the why. The two use to be
combined in the study of philosophy, but then they became sepperated
last century. Under our present system, science isn't suppose to ask
the why and religion is not suppose to ask the how or when or where,
but, a greater understanding can come for combining the two, not arguing
if one or the other is right or wrong.
Again, sorry for opening my mouth when I could not back up the
information. but, I have read alot on this subject lately and misquoted
my resourses. But, that does not mean they are any less factual, its
just that I misplaces the references. I'd be glad to contiue this
discussion with you any time.
Larry Bevard
Larry Bevard
___
* UniQWK v4.1 * The Windows Mail Reader
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 5
* Origin: 1:3615/50 (1:3615/51)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: #smoke
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:49:15
EID:3461 20789e20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315641ea
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64318288
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
ryan and Martin were killing time yakking about #smoke:
rs> ...and Jimbo, don't forget to point your web browser to
rs> http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~rshaw. You're even on it! There
rs> are even examples of your lovely true christian quotes for the
rs> entire world to see.
MG> In case you didn't get my missive, in your area on alternate
MG> religions, you have omitted Daisy the Pink One. This blasphemy shall
MG> not go unpunished.
Daisy's there, Martin! She's just invisible.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... How do you know when you have run out of invisible ink?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:09:03
EID:3063 2078a120
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315641eb
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 642fb932
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Preston and J.J. were killing time yakking about "No True Christian...":
JH> On Mar 22 15:39 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
PS> Jesus beat some people in a temple. Jesus said that he'd
PS> come to bring a sword, not peace. Jesus cursed a fig tree,
PS> for crying out loud. Do these look like the actions of a
PS> nice guy?
JH> And my favorite: he called the Samaritan woman a bitch.
Oh, fine. Give Prewett scriptural justification for his namecalling! JUST
what he needs....
"Catty Bitch"
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... And malt does more than Milton can to justify God's ways to man.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: #smoke
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:54:24
EID:6e8b 2078a6c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315641ec
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 315284cf
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and David were killing time yakking about #smoke:
LB> you in IRC. If Jim can get access, too, you could put all sorts of
LB> suspicions to rest once and for all, simply by both you and Jim being
LB> present in #holysmoke at the same time. :)
DW> Really? Do you think Annette is a real person, too? :)
(G) No, but I do think that the Staal Crew are incapable at this point
of
creating an Annette. And they have not yet appeared together.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Computers, blondes and jazz seldom go together." -- Riker
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: christology
|Date: 23 Mar 96 09:31:00
EID:a1ba 20774be0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3154149d
Here's what Norbert Sykes said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
NS> christology:
NS> 1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Lee Woofenden,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
???
LW> Could well be. Though you didn't address the other part of what I
LW> said: that people charged with crimes often claim religious belief to
LW> try to get themselves off the hook.
NS> Lanning adresses that particular point with some hesitancy. He notes
NS> that people try to get out if any way they can, even to the point of
NS> claiming religion. Apparently, he likes to remove all aspects of
NS> religion from a case and then look at it. I imagine its a pretty
NS> hard path to follow, especially for anyone indoctrinated in one of the
NS> major religions.
I think religion must be considered as a possible factor when considering
motives for a crime. To take an extreme case, someone who adheres to a religion
that practices human sacrifice would have to be treated somewhat differently
in a murder trial relating to his/her religious practice than someone who,
say, shot a convenience store clerk in the course of a robbery.
However, I also think there are limits to what can be allowed in the name
of religion. As far as I'm concerned, if there were any people practicing
human sacrifice in this country, they _should_ be tried, because that is
beyond acceptable limits for religious practice in our culture. Just where
that line should be drawn is a matter that requires continual consideration
and debate as our societal norms and religious values evolve.
LW> Still, it wouldn't particularly surprise me if "Christians" do more
LW> child abuse than people of other religions even percentage wise. Those
LW> who call themselves Christians live by their religion far less than
LW> people of other religions do.
NS> Another thing is that there is a huge population out there that will
NS> just call themselves Xtian if asked what their religion is, if for no
NS> other reason than the concept of other religions never presents
NS> itself to them. The one true way, and all that, you know . . .
That's what I was saying. There are a lot of nominal Christians out there.
However, fundy atheists in this echo have branded it a heresy to recognize
that many Christians do not practice what they preach, and even more of
a heresy to entertain the idea that many Christians have beliefs that they
call Christian but that violate the basic teachings of Christianity--and
therefore are non-Christian.
--Lee
... A police state is great, as long as you're the police.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:42:55
EID:3107 20775d40
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 31542f60
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E41
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about CHRISTOLOGY:
LW>> If you are talking about the Bible, yes, I have read and studied it
LW>> for many years.
DC>> Too bad you have only read it.
BJ> Lee, this one is easy enough to figure out. What I took the post to
LW> If that's what he meant, why didn't he say it clearly--as you just
LW> did?
DC> Because I gave you credit for far greater reading comprehension than
DC> you deserved.
LW>> development of the mythos of a particular segment of the human race
BJ> Still doesn't discount the fact that it IS a mythos...
LW> Your point being?
DC> As above, she has now made the same mistake of assuming you have a
DC> reading level above 3rd grade.
Dan, I do editing and proofreading professionally as part of my living.
I am currently one of the editors on a project that involves re-editing
a 30 volume set to prepare a new edition. I am considered one of the best
on the project. In light of that, your insults about my reading level sound
rather silly.
However, if, instead of taking your reply to a college level English professor
you'd rather bring it to a 3rd grade teacher, be my guest. The 3rd grade
teacher should also be able to tell you that your reply was ambiguous.
--Lee
... Facts that do not conform to theory must be disposed of.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: christology
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:52:42
EID:3107 20775e80
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 31542f61
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E48
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> Au contraire. I understand what _I_ wrote quite well.
DC> Then, Lee, you would not have had to have someone else explain
DC> to you about what I responded, would you?
This is laughable. Because _your_ reply is ambiguous, my comprehension of
what _I_ wrote is faulty?
Come on, Dan. You can do better than this.
--Lee
... All the world's a stage, and most of us are desperately unrehearsed.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: christology
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:54:50
EID:3107 20775ec0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 31542f62
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E49
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> It amuses me that you continue to refer to the Bible as "my book,"
LW> since I, for one, do not claim any authorship of it whatever.
DC> Then do yourself a favor and throw it away. After all, you
DC> have admitted above that it does not have a clue as to the
DC> current level of technology and the rights of those that have
DC> developed it.
So does this mean we should throw away all books that are more than a few
years old? Hey, let's get rid of _all_ our cultural and technological history!
After all, those old books by authors like Aristotle and Newton don't have
a clue as to the current level of technology and the rights of those that
have developed it. Let's expunge our societal memory of the past and live
without historical context!
Then we'd _really_ be short-sighted.
Dan, you're letting your emotions about the Bible overcome your reason.
Please try to step back and look at the matter a little more objectively.
Then we can have an intelligent discussion instead of all these silly put-downs
and knee-jerk reactions about the Bible.
--Lee
... Habits are first cobwebs, then cables.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 23 Mar 96 12:00:41
EID:2ecb 20776000
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 31542f63
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E4A
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about Epistemology 1/2:
KB> around for umpteen millenia, and in all that time nobody has been
KB> able to offer even a method of detecting the thing being discussed -
LW> Not true at all. Various religious teachers, sages, and mystics have
LW> been offering methods of "detecting" (i.e., experiencing) God and
LW> spirit for umpteen millennia. If you reject their methods out of hand,
LW> that is not their fault.
DC> So, Lee, just where is this "God Detector" and what gods has it
DC> detected? Is the device registered in the US Patent Department,
DC> and what is it's patent number?
You should know by now that I am not referring to any physical instrument
that could be patented. Detecting God is a matter of direct experience on
the spiritual level. Scientific instruments are unable to detect God because
their field of usefulness is the material level--and God is not a material
entity.
--Lee
... Imagination is more important than knowledge. --Albert Einstein
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: christology
|Date: 23 Mar 96 23:13:12
EID:4328 2077b9a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3154d2df
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0009fa5c
Here's what Larry Bevard said to Martin Goldberg about christology:
LB> I can understand your anger at such a god that would allow the
LB> suffering to continue as it does. Why for instincts did God
LB> allow my two girls to be sexually abused by an Elder in our
LB> church? Why does he even allow this man to live when he has done
LB> this many other times.
LB> [...]
LB> I had several chances of just revealing this man's name, and
LB> another would have dealt with him as he deserved. But, I knew
LB> that the man needed pitty and help and not just to be killed.
I hope you (or somebody) took steps to make sure he would not do this to
any more children...
--Lee
... Expect nothing... blame no one... do something.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 23 Mar 96 23:47:31
EID:4f2e 2077bde0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3154d68f
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 ea9ab999
Here's what Marilyn Burge said to Lee Woofenden about THE PATTERN OF THE
BIBLE:
LW> You are assuming that you grasp the message God is trying to convey.
I
LW> would suggest that this message has more to do with the motives than
LW> the action.
MB> You are reaching in order to justify the unjustifiable. He ordered
MB> his chosen people to not only commit genocide, but to kill all the
MB> women who had "known" a man and then take all the virgins for
MB> themselves.
From my perspective, Marilyn, God never ordered those people to do any such
thing. However, they _believed_ God ordered them to do it, and therefore
they recorded it that way.
MB> That is an order of magnitude different than what you describe below.
MB> In fact, what you describe below tends to equate adults with newborns
MB> in terms of cognition. I find that grossly insulting. Take your god
MB> who talks babytalk and cram him where the sun don't shine.
You are applying current norms and abilities in terms of ethical standards
and intelligence to people who lived several thousand years ago and were
nowhere near as far along as what is "normal" to us. We're not talking about
how you or I might hear God speaking to us now in our present culture. We're
talking about how people who lived two to four millennia ago in cultures
more brutal and less scientifically developed than our own heard God speaking.
And I remind you that I think they heard God wrong.
--Lee
... Common sense is what tells you that the world is flat.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 23 Mar 96 13:15:43
EID:0448 207769e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 69a9dccc
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8948438A
On (22 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to 3b1e4a59cf...
MH> Atheists, I maintain, cannot do the same, as atheists have no
MH> single moral ideal. Some atheists of high character may
MH> choose to be generous and honest. Fine. Yet atheists who choose to
be
MH> selfish and venal are not violating any atheistic moral standard. On
MH> what grounds would another atheist call them "wrong?" Personal
MH> opinion, or societal opinion at most.
We don't NEED to have a single moral belief. We follow the standard we
have voluntarily developed and accepted. That's a far higher level of
moral development than needing God to tell us to do such and so.
... No one could pin anything on Lady Godiva.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 24 Mar 96 05:23:03
EID:0b82 20782ae0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7bf030f0
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 290b3227
On (22 Mar 96) Sean McCullough wrote to Sue Armstrong...
> NS> There is a brutal parrallel in the story of the natives of
> NS> Terra del Fuega. But I don't have details.
> I wouldn't be surprised if there was. Death and destruction
> seems to have followed Christian migrants wherever they went,
> with death on a scale not seen since the Roman circuses - and
> surpassing them.
SM> No surprise, when you consider that most Christian migrations
SM> carried not only deliberate genocidal wars, but brand-new
SM> DISEASES in their wake as well. Even in places where
SM> Christianity invaded relatively peacefully, the deaths from
SM> disease ALONE made death at the Roman Circuses quite pleasant
SM> by comparison.
The missionaries of past generations have so thoroughly done their
job that the ONLY justification for continuing said missions is
much the same as the cigaret companies' justification for
advertising: to steal "market share" from one another. Given that,
it is hardly surprising that you would get such a response if you
asked a "mission" group the question you suggest.
Quite frankly, I see the "work" that missionaries do (with the
exception of those missionaries that are FAR more interested in
improving living conditions than they are in saving souls) as being
VERY destructive, imperialistic, and egotistical. The mere thought
of one human being thinking that their religious point of view is
superior to that of another is, IMHO, an abomination. Some of the
religions these scum have wiped out are older than the written
language and have therefore served the adherents in a manner that
ensures their survival far, far longer than Christianity, Judaism,
or any other newcomer on the block we Westerners could possibly
imagine.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
... And on the 8th day God said, "Ok, Murphy, you're in charge."
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 24 Mar 96 05:32:04
EID:da31 20782c00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 2047e186
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2913b8bd
On (22 Mar 96) Sean McCullough wrote to Al Schroeder...
SM> And WHY -- in the name of Wotan, WHY!! -- do men with the
SM> beater disease EVER succeed in attracting ANYONE??!!?
You have to remember that little girls have a bond with their
fathers that is deeper than you can imagine. It's the old Electra
Complex thing. It's very real. Given that, if a father treats his
little girl that way, she grows up thinking that's how females are
treated. Unless she has a huge dollop of the ability to question
EVEERYTHING, as I did, she takes such treatment for granted by the
time she's twelve. As much as I adored (even worshipped) my
father, there came a time in my life when I realized I was
liberated by his death from that sort of treatment, and there was
no way I was ever going to consider going back. But, for many,
they just never wake up to the fact that not all women are treated
that way, and they don't have to be treated as they are either.
Then there are those who think that such treatment is a sign that
the guy is emotionally engaged. I lived across the street from a
woman who thought that way. I happened to mention one time that
Lou and I had never displayed any sign of jealousy toward one
another in all the years we'd been married. Incredulous, she said
"you mean he isn't the LEAST BIT jealous if he sees you talking to
another man?" When I assured her he wasn't, that I could gauge his
love for me by the fact that he got out of bed every morning and
worked 12 hours a day to support Louie and me (what more
demonstration of love could a woman ask for than this?), she
replied, "then, how can you tell he loves you?" All I could do was
shake my head in disgust and astonishment that she even had to
have such a barometer of her man's "affection."
I still wonder how a person's mind can become that warped.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose On
|Date: 24 Mar 96 09:53:45
EID:c12d 20784ea0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 a7580c82
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 15392632
On (Fri 22 Ma) Rick Mcfarlane wrote to Dan Ceppa...
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
MB> is mandated to makescouting available to all boys who meet entrance
MB> age requirements irrespective of race, religion, or ethnic origin.
RM> ...
RM> Looks to me like this court has just decided that atheism is a
RM> religion.
DC> No more so than the Constitution is a document that requires a
DC> religion to be a citizen of this country.
RM> According to Marilyn's note, it had nothing to do with your
RM> constitution - the judge based his decision on the part of the BSA
RM> charter which says that anyone is accepted, regardless of their
RM> religion, clearly classing atheism as a religion.
There is really more to it than that. The BSA is hawked in the
public schools. In many communities, it uses school facilities
free of charge (and did long before the equal-access laws were
enacted). In short, the BSA wants it both ways: the ability to
retain its "right" to discriminate against people based on their
religious stance (not religion, but stance), and the "right" to
mix freely with the government and its institutions. Did you know
the BSA also operates under a Federal charter? That makes it
subject to anti-discrimination laws, the same as a government
contractor would be.
RM> But, since you brought up your constitution, the question of
RM> the day is:
RM> In the USA, can the B'nai Brith legally exclude Moslems from
RM> membership?
Probably. Do they operate under a Federal charter? Do they
exist as an arm of a church? Is the BSA an arm of a church?
If it is, then it certainly has no business in our schools.
They want it both ways, but their days of geting it both ways
are clearly numbered.
... David Duke: Sheet for brains.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: CC5
|Date: 24 Mar 96 10:15:07
EID:2bd7 207851e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 86991d57
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3153f204
On (22 Mar 96) Sue Armstrong wrote to George Rudzinski...
GR> "It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the
GR> great builders of our nation almost to a man have been
GR> Christians, because Christians have the desire to build
GR> something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he
GR> builds. The people who have come into [our] institutions
GR> [today] are primarily termites. They are into destroying
GR> institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it
GR> is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we
GR> have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the
GR> way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly
GR> fumigation." (PAT ROBERTSON, NEW YORK MAGAZINE, August 18,
GR> 1986)
SA> The complete and utter ignorance about the life around them
SA> is probably the most staggering aspect of Christians. Every
SA> time one of them says something completely stupid and
SA> uninformed, I lose just that much more respect for such a
SA> narrow-minded religious world view.
There's something else wrong with his statement. How can he
possibly know that builders are "motivated by love of man and love
of god"? He offers not one shred of evidence to support that bald
assertion. It is one of those grandiose statements that is made
with one purpose in mind: to prop up an assertion for which there
is also no evidence. The entire statement from start to finish is
nothing more than his take on How Things Should Be , which is,
in turn, based on his take on How God Wants Things to Be ,
both of which are, truth be known, synonymous (i.e., are nothing
more than how HE thinks things should be.
... Sight is a faculty; seeing is an art, observing is a science.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Mike Carr
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:44:00
EID:a441 20786d80
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2a0c57fc
REPLY: 1:284/120 77031075
PID: FM 2.02
> I had a copy of her book, but alas, it gone. I think it was written in
> the early sixtys. She went to Lourdes (like you) a skeptic.
"That's what they all say." It doesn't take a Pulitzer-winning writer to
insert such a claim in a faith-propaganda tract.
Doesn't make said claim true, you know.
>-> > The question still stands 'why not miracles' Sean?
>->
>-> Because we live in a self-extant universe which runs by fixed, immuta
>-> Sean
> , Fixed, immutable laws implies a lawgiver that gives direction.
Nope. As I stated before, the universe is self-extant. No creator involved.
>-> There is no such thing as "God".
> You just told me that the "universe" runs things. That would be your
> "God" would it not?
No. The use of the term "God" is, in fact, an assertion that the universe
is either intelligent or desirous of worship, neither one of which assertions
is true.
You are desperately trying to contrive "Gods" where there are in fact none.
>-> I do not traffick in faith. You want me to believe in God, produce him
>-> Either show me the single location where God is, or cause God to appe
>-> room where my computer is (there is no God in said place at this time
> Sean
> , You trafic in faith everyday.
False statement.
I know better than you whether I traffick in faith or not. And I don't.
If I accept any concept whatsoever, it is because I have garnered enough
direct evidence -- evidence derived from direct observation -- to support
said concept.
This is where your faith becomes, in the immortal words of Samuel "Mark
Twain" Clemens, "believing what you [should] know ain't so". You accept
the existence of some God-thing or other based on nothing but a contrived
argument from indirect evidence combined with a funny internal feeling called
faith. This is NOT enough to evidence the truth of the claims involved.
All the indirect evidence on Earth is totally worthless without corroboration
of DIRECT evidence. Not only would you have to show me that the claimed
"miracle healings" at Lourdes were just that, but you would have to show
me the God