God Damned Fundies!
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: [1/2] WHAT??
|Date: 23 Mar 96 19:13:00
EID:df21 207799a0
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to J.j. Hitt <=-
JH> NASA said "no" and promptly pissed away 25 MILLION dollars designing
JH> a toilet of their own. (For 25 million dollars they could have
RB> How much is that per dump?
I don't know, but if they could make it a pay toilet they could probably
pay for the space program for several centuries.
... What's all this fuss about endangered feces?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: ABORTION
|Date: 23 Mar 96 19:24:00
EID:7d37 20779b00
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Judith Bandsma <=-
SA> Your dog gave you a SPANKING for being bad? ROFL! Oh, sorry.
SA> Oh, that's too rich. :)
Not for being bad...for being LATE with her breakfast. If an animal will
do that for a bowl full of kibble, how can anyone think you could get one
to fast?
And yes, Rosie whacks me regularly. She also likes to lay on the floor
pretending she's asleep and then reach out a paw to trip me when I try to
go around her. She may be more related to coyote than wolf.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:22:37
EID:fea2 20789ac0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3155e74c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Craig ZOG wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> MC> I'm beginning to believe that Pat Robertson and his Christian
PS> MC> Coalition, are a Zionist front organization.
PS> Nobody cares what you believe, as you are a moron of the
PS> first water.
MC> Your "mama" is calling you.
Is this your best, "Mark"?
... AD&D Quote: "What's a `pantheon', and why is it mad at me?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Preston's temper tantrum.
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:22:37
EID:1d07 20789ac0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3155e74d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Sue Armstrong Preston's temper tantrum. wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> The five-pointed star, though not mentioned by name, appears in "At
PS> the Mountains of Madness." I'm not sure where else, but I'll dig for
PS> the answers if you like.
SA> Speaking of which, ever see the flick "In the Mouth of Madness"
SA> with Sam Neill? It looks like a really cheesy movie at the
I've heard about it, but not yet seen it.
SA> outset, but it turned out to be really quite good, if you like
SA> Lovecraft's stuff. It's running on our movie network now, so
SA> it's probably on US cable systems (like HBO, perhaps, or
SA> Showtime) too, and is on videotape. Lots of fun. :)
So I've heard. Maybe I'll actually get to see it one day.
... "Bother," said Pooh as he was frozen in carbonite.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: MONDO-Tacky
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:31
EID:978e 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605fb
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Re: MONDO-Tacky wgah'nagl fhtagn.
NS> I grok this completely. I have a pair of hamsters next to my desk in
NS> a high-rise cage. We have to use twist-ties to keep the two doors
NS> closed, and they're very inventive (for being such obviously stupid
NS> beasts) at trying to escape. Ah, but they're cute . . . I guess the
Of course. However stupid they may be, rodents are geniuses at getting out
of cages.
NS> beer in the water bottle wouldn't be bad, if you could stand the
NS> drunken rodent singing. Nocturnal animals are hard to break from
The high-pitched squeaky voice would be the worst.
... "Bad news mom, I sold my soul to the devil." - Calvin
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:31
EID:cc6c 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605fc
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Re: Your Daily Murder wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Fun fact: Germany's biggest trade partner before the outbreak of WWII
PS> was France. It doesn't always stand to reason that an ally will remain
PS> as such.
NS> Quite cowardly, isn't it? Scarey too, knowing that there are lots of
NS> people like this out there who would just look the other way . . .
Definitely so, but courage and nobility are not traits found in all
specimens of h. sapiens sapiens.
PS> Shallow because I insist that rape is wrong and those who claim
PS> otherwise for any reason are worthless animals who are a detriment to
PS> the species? Well. Damn me for having principles.
NS> How _dare_ you? }:)
Yeah. It's a horrible offense, especially when my principles don't line
up
with his. Woe is me, for surely I am in the employ of Satan himself.
PS> By killing kids?
NS> You're surprized at his response? He just makes my skin crawl, I
Not really. I rather expected it from such a testosterone-crazed coward.
NS> tell you, when I read the justifications for rape, enslavement,
NS> killing, women-beating, etc. You made good points, consistently, and
NS> I think you're ahead on points alone. Now if you could just get a
NS> knock out!
I'm working on it, but I choose not to kill his family and torch his house,
so he might yet win by fighting dirty.
... Famous DM Farewells: "It hits and...hold on, I need more dice"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:f810 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605fd
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell A LITTLE HELP FROM SP wgah'nagl
PS> fhtagn.
NS> BTW, what is this? ^^^^^ Is it the Lemurian recipe for Spam or
NS> something?
The original phrase is "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl
fhtagn," which is often translated as "In his house at R'lyeh dead
Cthulhu lies dreaming." It's a popular line from the Mythos.
PS> 7 billion? I thought the world only had 6. Sheesh, I guess somebody's
PS> been busy.
NS> Oops, sorry! I'll try to pace myself . . . };)
"Somewhere in this world there is a woman giving birth every nine
minutes. She must be found and stopped." --Some famous guy.
... You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: 1 god
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:b5c2 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605fe
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Re: 1 god wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> If you had read the bible and followed the plan of salvation laid
BJ> out for us in the book of Acts, then turned away from God;
BJ> You are a fool!
PS> MAT 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
PS> without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever
PS> shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but
PS> whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
PS> Break out the asbestos suit, Brad.
NS> Touche flambe . . . }:)
Thank you, thank you. Most irritating was the fact that he didn't respond
to it. Perhaps he saw my rebuke and self-immolated.
... Cthulhu loves me, this I know; the Necronomicon told me so.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
12/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Re: Friends
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:c2ae 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315605ff
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Johnston Re: Friends wgah'nagl fhtagn.
-> BJ> I am sorry to hear about your so called friends! First off, this
-> BJ> is the religious debate echo and I should exercise my rights to
-> The important point, bunky, is that you have *no* right to preach
-> here. It is a privilege, not a right.
DJ> Oh come on. When has the "privilege" of displaying one's stupidity
DJ> here ever been revoked for anyone for any reason here?
It's happened more than once, usually because some dipshit wouldn't follow
the echo guidelines. Ask Styx or someone with a better memory than mine
for
details.
... "Oh, bother", said Pooh, as the BATF destroyed his honey pot.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:58fb 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31560600
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Marty Leipzig Waco Rememberance wgah'nagl fhtagn.
ML> The "Guns and Liquor" Store in Uvalde carries 00 buck (~8 .32
ML> caliber slugs in one nice, neat little package), 000 buck (~6
ML> .44 as above) and even 0000 buck (~4 .50 caliber slugs). For
ML> real stopping power, try a 3.5" 10 gauge magnum rifled deer
ML> slug.
There's such a thing as 0000 buck? Damnation--must be some *big* deer
out that way.
ML> Or, just say "The Hell with it." and load up the ol' Glock 10
ML> mm.
Or the GAU-8, but those aren't exactly man-portable.
... 105 mm, when you care enough to send the very best.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 24 Mar 96 21:33:32
EID:a043 2078ac20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31560601
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Selena Kerr Re: The end? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Who are the likely candidates to kick off a nuclear war any time
PS> soon?
SK> I don't know why they would do that.. it doesn't say WHY in the
SK> books.. it just says what will happen. Maybe it will have something
Helpful hint: Nobody that I know of knows exactly *what* Nostradamus
was predicting, if anything. To read the quatrains in the original
requires an extensive knowledge of Old French, Latin, and other languages.
Most likely, everything that you've read is a translation or interpretation
and thus prone to the interpreter's bias.
SK> to do with Tiwans independance and the whole world will get involved?
Why the hell would someone start lobbing around nukes just because Taiwan
is independent?
... Unknown Error on Unknown Device for Unexplainable Reason.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:16:44
EID:c222 20783200
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 1446954b
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAN CEPPA to JESSE JONES on 03-20-96
DC>-> On 03-19-96 06:02, Jesse Jones got back to Steve Quarrella
DC> JJ> yourself. You do not press any buttons. You lack the
DC> JJ> intelligence to do so. You are a minor annoyance.
DC>So, Jesse, just how long did it take for you an Mikey to
DC>collaborate on this latest venture of yours?
Has Steve Q possessed your body again, Dan? I have not the
slightest idea what you are talking about.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/23/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
ž CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
Can I yell 'movie' in a crowded firehouse??
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:f637 207730e0
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to Jim Germiquet <=-
LB> Good points Jim. I just wanted to add that there is a difference
LB> between those that profess to be Christian and those that practice
LB> Christianity. In one case we know that the person is a Christian
LB> because he tells us he is, in the other case, we know the man is
LB> christian by his actions and his attitude, he doesn't have to tell us.
LB> And as far as the Crusades or an abortion bomber, sure these people
LB> believed in Jesus and believed they were Christians, but does the
LB> action match what Jesus said for us to do? If not, then their actions
LB> are very unchristian and rightly should be condemned. As far as the
LB> Crusades goes, the main purpose of most of them was not religious,
but
LB> were for money and power.
LB>
LB> Larry Bevard
Larry, the only thing I would add to this is that we don't know who the
real christians are. Only god knows that. Jesus said many will come and
say they did all kinds of things in his name. And he will say "Depart
from me, I knew you not."
I am sure you know the whole story. My point is that sometimes even doing
good works, does not prove you are a christian. It is the MOTIVE behind
those good works, and ONLY GOD knows that. If your good works were only
for a pat on the bakc or a seat in heaven, then they will get you nothing.
Those good works must be done simply because they are the "right thing to
do".
On the other hand, if you do something that you believe god doeesn't want
you to, it doesn't matter whether anyone else thinks it is a sin or not.
The story of the meat offered to idols is a good example of this.
One person can eat meat offered to idols and it is not a sin. Another person
can eat the same meat and it is a sin. The sin is not in eating the meat.
In
this case, the sin was in fact that the person eating the meat believed
that god did not want him to do it, but he did it anyway.
The underlying principle is, that its whats inside that counts :-)
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: [1/2] [1/2] Re: Tithe
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:1995 207730e0
>>> Part 1 of 2...
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to Jim Germiquet <=-
LB> Jim,
JG>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>
JG>The point is that yes we have hungry people. SHould we then sell all
the
JG>artifacts in our museums, and open them up as hostels ? Should we take
all
JG>the money from scientific groups trying to find dinosaur bones for
JG>our museums, and use it to feed hungry people ? Should we as people,
or
JG>institutions or churches, give away all our money to the poor and become
JG>poor ourselves, and unable to help anyone else ?
LB> I believe a bigger share should go to the helping the poor.
Each of us must answer personally to god. The question will always
remain , how much of what we have should we give to god ?
As I went on to explain, A person with a 100 dollar income who
gives $10 is making a big sacrifice. For a person who makes $1million
dollars, although the accepted practice is 10% they may feel quite
comfortable giving 50%. Or they may think it wiser to use the other
40% as a foundation to be able to continually help people rather
than giving it all away and then having nothing left to help others
until their next $1million dollar paycheck.
JG>People who give money to their church, are certainly helping
JG>the poor that those churches support. But that money also pays the rent
JG>for that church. It pays to keep it clean. It pays to make it look
JG>beautiful. How much nicer is it to be in a church with a choir dressed
in
JG>blue robes instead of ragged shirts and blue jeans. And these people
JG>pay for this priviledge.
LB>
LB> Why do we need fancy Churches and any robes? My Church meets in a
LB> converted house, with another house being used for the class building.
LB> We don't have any organ, or choir. We do have a old van that we use
LB> to pick up kids around town to come to Wed. nite bible study. Total
LB> spent on houses and van is $30000, all payed for. And, I might add,
LB> we have wonderful services.
And what is the income of your church ? The point being, that you don't
have to live like a beggar to do the work of god. God didn't require
Solomon to live with " an old van, and no organ or choir". But I am sure
that
Solomon used his riches to the glory of God. It isn't how much money you
have or give, other than giving God whatever he asks. And neither you
nor I can judge whether Solomon was doing that. It isn't how much we have,
but what we do with it. Again if a person gives everything he owns away
to
the poor, he would soon be in a position where he could no longer help
anyone.
JG>Just as you might pay to have a nice house or apartment to live in,
JG>instead of a rundown ramshackle shack. SHould you sell your nice house
JG>or move to a cheaper apartment so that you can give all that extra
JG>money to the poor ? No... you take a portion of your money, and you
JG>use it to help those less fortunate, you do not become poor yourself
JG>to do so.
LB>
LB> As a Christian, our first duty in the church is to provide for
LB> orphains and widows. The Bible also teaches that ALL we have is a
LB> gift from God, so we shouldn't worry about how nice a house we live
LB> in, or how poor we are (or look). The Important thing is to do God's
LB> will in our life. We can sell all we have, yet we still have the job
LB> that God provided, and we have helped many people with the proceeds
of
LB> the sale. How rich in blessings we become. And isn't that more
LB> important?
But you can only judge what god is telling you to do. Maybe that is not
what God wants everyone else to do. Perhaps he entrusts some people with
great wealth, because they have shown that they use it responsibly to
further his kingdom. WHo says those rich churches haven't provided for
their orphans and widows ? Again with a firm foundation you can continue
to provide that support. The richer you remain, the more people you can
help.
JG>The same with churches. They should strive to set an example of what
JG>serving god can provide for us. Everyone giving a portion to help
JG>others. The more you are given and have, the more you can give others.
JG>Now look at this 10% idea.
LB> You idea is fine, and I wished all people and churches practiced
LB> this. But, rules are made to be broken. During the flood here in
LB> Iowa in 1993, our church collected and passed out $3/4 million worth
LB> of money and goods. Not a penny of this went for our own use, no new
LB> van, no new carpeting. It all went to non-christian families that
had
LB> lost everything in the flood so that they might get back into shape.
LB> Regularly, we will take money that was meant for other things,
LB> including our own money, and provide emergency food, clothing, shelter
LB> for a family that is in trouble. Several times, us who had some extra
LB> money had to come up with some funds to be able to pay the bills, or
LB> we had to take a short term loan so that we could help others not even
LB> in our church.
I seem to have lost the point of this paragraph other than telling me
of your sacrifice and self-denial. In itself, that is wonderful, but it
loses it's value if that was all it was for. Is it anyless wonderful if
the money came from a richer church ? And who is to say, that was the
purpose god used you for, while he uses another church for a different
purpose.
JG>JG>Or is it possible that some members of the church like to see their
JG>JG>choir in robes, and tithe to provide them. Or maybe some church
JG>JG>members appreciate a warm beautiful building to worship God in and
JG>JG>tithe some of their hard earned money for it.
JG>
JG>KW> Honeybunch, they can do what ever they want, as long as they don't
JG>KW> expect me to buy their exercise in vanity as charity or a sign of
JG>KW> their piety.
LB> If that is what is important to these people, I feel sorry for the
LB> church. I always thought a church was a bunch of people that provides
LB> for one another and practices what Jesus did. If you notice, Jesus
LB> owned one cloak and had no house or anything else. Did it matter to
LB> Him. What did He say to the apostles when they were commenting on the
LB> beutiful buildings? What was His attitude toward a Fancy temple?
I think that Jesus comment was about what was going on in the temple,
more than the cost of it. But you will have to refresh my memory on'
the specific passage you are referring to. I don't think Jesus cares
whether we are rich or poor. For example he said slave do not desire
to be freemen and slave masters treat your slaves well. It isnt how
much money we have, as long as we do what god wants us to do with it.
LB> Yes, these people should be paid, as well as our ministers, but
LB> the big difference is in the amount that most TV Evangulast gets paid.
LB> A Fair wage should be provided, but in a lot of cases, these type of
And who decides what a "fair wage" is. There is a lot of talk about
selfish "athletes" like Wayne Gretzky who get paid millions of dollars
a year. They want a "salary cap" Now if you put a salary cap on these
athletes, and each of them on the team for example made $1million
dollars less, where would that money go ? To one greedy little owner
who would then have an extra 20million bucks to stick in his own
pocket. Now when wayne gretzky was traded to los angelos, the kings
made so much more money that Gretzky was voluntarily given a raise.
It was directly as a result of gretzky coming to L.A. that made that
extra $10million so why shouldnt he get it ?
LB> people takes millions. Then we see people like Dr. Dobson who takes
LB> NO wages for his ministry. He provides for himself thru the sales
of
LB> his books, and 50 % of that is donated back to the ministry. His is
LB> not poor, yet he trust in God to provide for him and his family thru
LB> his God given talant. There are many many missionaries that pay there
LB> own way to provide serves to others, they are poor. God made some
of
LB> us rich in order to provide more money to help, not to spend it on
LB> bigger and better buildings.
>>> Continued to next message...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: [2/2] [1/2] Re: Tithe
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:2ad1 207730e0
>>> Part 2 of 2...
And who is to be the judge of whether or not these people are doing
what god wants them to do ? Certainly, not you or I.
LB> What difference does it make in the long run whether we have a
LB> modern, showy building to meet in or if we meet under a tree? What
LB> difference in the long run does it make if we are rich (according to
LB> the worldly system) or poor?
LB>
LB> Just some things to think of.
Exactly ! What difference does it make ? So why be critical of those who
choose to worship in a showy building ? What difference does it make, as
long as you are doing with the rest of the money what God wants you to
do, with the money gives you as a reward, you can do as you wish, including
by robes for your choir :-)
... He's got Blue Wave fever and it's spreading through the message bases!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:e978 207730e0
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
>DR> Liar.
JG> Oh so now you are an expert on the teachings and words of
JG> Jesus Christ?
DR> So, you molest sheep, Jim?
DR> You claimed to know what Jesus said, not what "Jesus Christ"
DR> said. I pointed out that you are a liar, since Jesus had no
DR> concept of what a "Christian" is.
JG> And Does the person claiming to be Christian adhere to
JG> the teachings of Jesus Christ ?
You know , your whole arguement has to do with claiming there is no
Jesus, and your wierd comment about molesting sheep ?
First, you are just playing word games. Of coarse Jesus's last name
was not "Christ", that was just a descriptive word used to denote
who Jesus was in terms of his purpose in the world, and not to of
course confuse him with such people as Jesus Barabas. It is irrelevant
in any case. God is the spirit of Truth and Love. Jesus was the
physical embodiment of that truth and love. You can go through denial
for the rest of your life. You are only trying to fool yourself. Do
you think I give to hoots about your biblical scholarship. The
pharisees and sadducees were far more schooled than you, and Jesus
called them snakes and vipers. Your knowledge of the bible is absolutely
USELESS because you have no idea what the SPIRIT of those words are.
You cannot interpret them properly because your heart is so full of
fear of the truth. You are so puffed up with pride , that you could
never admit you are wrong. It isn't me you have to answer to , it is
GOD , it is the TRUTH that you refuse to answer to. Not MY truth, but
the truth that God right now is laying upon your heart, and you are
fighting so desperately to DENY !
It is really sad. All God wants to do is give you peace and joy, and
you would rather live this life of strife and bitterness. God is
crying for you. His heart is breaking because he loves you so much and
you refuse to believe it. How very very sad.
... I call things as I see them; If I didn't see them, I make them up!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Rice
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:7dc3 207730e0
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> It is just the experiences and thoughts of the learned
JG> men of that day and age in history.
DR> They were ignorant, uneducated, superstitious imbicles who
DR> believed in magick and occult nonsense. The authors of the
DR> Bible have nothing of any value to say to us. Sorry.
Maybe they were technologically ignorant, but they wrestled with
exactly the same spiritual problems we deal with today.
Whether you call it "demon possesion" or "neurosis" it is the same
thing. Whether you kill with a spear or an uzi, it is steal because
of the same spiritual wickedness, of greed, laziness, hatred. That
hasn't changed one bit. And neither has religion. There are still
those who use it as a political tool to manipulate people and others
who are sincere in following it as a way of life, and of course there
are still people like you around, trying to denounce it because the
goodness of it makes your lies and hatred stand out for what it is.
The very comments you make as you write your messages. The insults,
the ridiculing, show what motivates you,
DR> Now then. Answer the question. Who gives a shit what the
DR> Bible says?
People who care about spiritual values like , love, truth,
peace, joy , faith and hope.
JG> Who cares what Solomon said."
People who care about spiritual values and want to know how to live
their lives in a spiritually wise way.
DR> What kind of imbicle, while writing the Bible, would think
DR> bats have feathers?
Now tell me the exact date that birds were DEFINED as any animal
with FEATHERS ????? I am positive, that is a relatively modern
definition. I am sure at one time a whale was considered a big fish.
DR> ROTFL! You're the drooling, busted shit pipe who has been
DR> spewing the inanities.
Once again you prove why you cannot understand or believe in the
bible and it's spiritual truths. Your life must be a very sad one
to have such a ridiculing , disrespectful attitude toward others.
JG> Everytime you get on an airplane, you have FAITH that the
JG> airplane will not crash , or you wouldn't get on it. You
JG> have faith for a REASON ! You know from experience airplanes
JG> can fly and that only a small percentage crash. You have
JG> faith that this one won't !!!
DR> If you insist on redefining words to suit your occult beliefs
DR> and bolster your weak arguments, no one will even try to take
DR> you seriously.
I see no redefining of words at all in the above.
faith ...dic def... complete confidence or trust.
Whether that is in an "airplane" or in "god", there has been no
redefining of words. Clarifying the specific meaning of the word,
does not mean redefining it.
DR> Your occultism (i.e. "faith") cannot, by the very deffinition
DR> of the word, include logic and reason.
DR> FAITH (n): Belief that does not rest on logical proof or
DR> material evidence.
JG> Faith in god, works the same way. You[sic] hear the words
JG> of god, and you[sic] reason whether they are reasonable
JG> to you[sic].
DR> Since no one hears these gods of your speaking, your
DR> hallucinations are your own problem. See a psychiatrist.
JG> Then if they are you[sic] act upon them. If the results
JG> are favorable, you[sic] have a stronger faith that the
JG> words of god are reliable.
DR> Keep your occult delusions to yourself.
>>JG> Of course Faith[sic] knows reason.
>DR> Then it isn't faith.
JG> I have shown above that it is.
DR> You have been demonstrated, by me, to be wrong. Adjust your
DR> occult beliefs accordingly.
Only in your mind and your fellow atheists who must cling to their
belief there is no god, because they are so afraid that if they admit
there is they would either have to do what is right, or go to hell.
It is so much easier to do what you want and deny the existence of god.
JG> Whether or not you believe that these writings are actual
JG> letters to various churches, is up to you. I rather doubt
JG> that you are an authority on the subject.
DR> I know that your cult manufactured the Jesus myths for its
DR> own evil agenda.
90 % of your message is this same kind of drivel. where you claim
to have some extensive knowledge of bible history, when you probably
have know personal knowledge and are just spewing out some anti
bible rhetoric in your stanic bible or something.
You simply CHOOSE to believe in anything at all except a god of truth
who you fear intensely.
You are like Adam in the bible. The first thing he did when he ate from
the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was try to HIDE from god.
That is what you are doing right now.
... Press now to access the pirate software.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:46
EID:a12f 207730e0
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Germiquet <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Martin Goldberg <=-
JG> Easy, Obesity is real, Obesity is hell ...therefore Hell is real !
JB> Fathead!
I really don't know why you stoop to name calling to avoid conceding
when a point has been made.
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:45
EID:e240 207730e0
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
MG>> It's that simple. Where is your evidence for god?
JG> Well thank you very much, you have just given the evidence for my
JG> God. My God is that highly compressed ball of < matter???
JG> whats that? matter that expanded. TADA !
MG> You seem to have a simple philosophy.
I do try to keep it as simple as possible :-)
All I was saying is that whatever science says everything started
from, will do quite nicely to describe my "god the creator" :-)
I have always concidered science to just be those who discover what
gods creation is and how he put it together .
Leave the why and the wherefore, to religion .
Maybe even philosophy.
... Security, confine Ensign Goldberg to the brig.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:46
EID:34bf 207730e0
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Germiquet <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Judith Bandsma <=-
JG> Exactly and at the time these "canals" were discovered, I was told
JG> about them. Later the opinion was that these "canals" were the result
JG> of the instrument being used to study the planet.
JB> I absolutely refuse to believe that you are over 100 years old.
Eesh, again you pick on some irrelevent technical point and completely
ignore the concept within the message . just like the sadducees and
pharisees of the new testament that Jesus criticised.
... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 250/618 601 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 23 Mar 96 06:07:46
EID:f790 207730e0
JG> and your snide comments are not impressing me
JG> either , in fact I personally consider them as rather rude and
DC> Tough shit.
JG> these extraneous comments, will earn you the great honor of being
JG> added to my twit list.
DC> You'd twit your own mother if she didn't agree with you.
Twitting you has nothing to do with your not agreeing with me. Everyone
has a right to their own opinion. YOU do not however have the right to
verbally abuse people that YOU do not agree with. I will ASSERTIVELY
leave you after this post.
DC> If you need help in setting up your file, see Mikey Hardy. He's
DC> having problems with his.
DC> Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
I was hoping you would comment on the TWIT thing. And no I won't
let the door hit me in the ass on my way out, I will close it
politely, something I don't think you would be able to recognize
anyway.
Goodbye, and have a nice forever.
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:56:59
EID:bf11 20783700
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643ae4f3
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314ad019
On Mar 16 14:26 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
NS>> BTW, does this mean that you and JJ have to duke it out,
NS>> since he's risen from the grave and is therefore probably
NS>> a Messiah as well? Or will you both open a little shop
NS>> off the mall together?
DW> With 7 billion people in the world, I think there are
DW> enough followers for both of us.
Besides, who are you going to have Holy Wars with if everyone
is on your side?
Which was one of the major problems in Salem, MA. With no
real enemies around to persecute them, the Puritans had to
invent enemies within their own membership.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Ann Nunn
|Sub: the basis of morality
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:11:50
EID:6ad5 20783960
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643b1dad
REPLY: 1:396/93.0 89440F97
On Mar 17 21:50 96, Ann Nunn of 1:396/93 wrote:
AN> Not so; morality is not derived from one's view of any
AN> deity, but from one's view of how best to get along in a
AN> social context.
While I'm inclinded to agree, I'd also have to add that an
act is "moral" or "immoral" depends largely on the system in
which it occurs.
Did the first settler who shot a buffalo, cut out it's tounge for
supper and left the rest of the carcass to rot commit an immoral
act? I'd be inclinded to say no. (Those screams you hear are
comeing from Sue Armstrong.) Yet as the supply of buffalo dwindled
such an act had greater and greater consequences to the species,
the environment and the people who depended on the buffalo. It
became less and less moral.
In short, it isn't the act that is immoral, but the effect the
act produces. What can have disasterous effects in one setting
may have no effect whatsoever in another setting.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: hi
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:39:36
EID:1336 20783ce0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643b53a5
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org fd59ba8b
On Mar 22 13:04 96, Katherine Wintersnight of 1:381/123@fidonet.org wrote:
SA> I'd love the excuse to go see Texas, though. I love praries and
SA> deserts and wide open spaces, almost as much as I like
SA> mountains. Oh, yeah, and meeting you folks would be neat, too.
KW> From Canada TX would be quite a haul, several days by road.
KW> When you factor in food and such, it might be as cheap to
KW> fly. BTW, TX has mountains. TX seems to have a little bit
KW> of everything, save tundra. :)
I felt on commenting on Sue's message but never got around to it.
It should be pointed out that if she is interested in seeing desert,
San Antonio is going to be a disappointment.
KW> The problem is finding any place that most of the
KW> people here can get to without major expense and trouble.
KW> New Orleans was suggested, but that was shot down due to the
KW> cost of accommodations.
How about Wichita, KS? It's centrally located. Shouldn't be
expensive. Doesn't overly favor any group of users by being
close to their hometown. And best of all, it's the home of a
notorious nutcase preacher.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: 'american 'athiest''
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:50:32
EID:d047 20783e40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643b7b4b
On Mar 19 15:44 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
MB>> It was at that point that I decided not to renew my membership.
MB>> I don't like fundy atheists any more than I like fundy
MB>> christers. And, after what the O'Hair family did to the
MB>> organization, running away with all its money, I could care
MB>> less who gives the organization a black eye. The O'Hairs have
MB>> it coming, so far as I'm concerned.
NS> Did they really do this? The official word that I've seen over
NS> on ATHIEST is that no money was missing, just that the O'Hairs
NS> were missing for no good reason, etc. I.e., they just wandered
NS> away, but everything's fine.
Like all of us, I'd love to know what the real story is. The fact
the organization was reported to have yanked several projects right
after the disappearance still smells like money trouble. When an
auditor says "no money is missing" it doesn't always mean the money
isn't gone, just that no laws were broken and that they can account
for where it went to. (It's amazing how well the words "for services
rendered" can cover your ass.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: John Salvi
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:33:08
EID:345f 20786c20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643e92d9
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3152e584
On Mar 22 13:24 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
DM> I noticed a strong resemblence between his behavior in
DM> court and that of Egel Amin ... Amir? The guy who
DM> assassinated Rabin. The calm stare of the self-assured
DM> playing god . . .
What struck me was his demanding press conferences and interviews on
national media even after his conviction. He obviously feels that
this is something he is entitled to, as if anyone (other than the
morbidly curious like myself) cared about what he had to say.
DM> Later you say to Anthony Grigor-Scott:
JH>> Are these broadcasts limited to Australia? Or are you on
JH>> shortwave?
DM> Out trolling to satisfy your addiction to the insanity
DM> of religious broadcasters, are you?
I find it extremely convenient to have these nutballs on the radio.
If they limited themselves to secret meetings in dimly lit
back-rooms it would be much harder to learn what they are up to.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Germy's fiance
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:50:28
EID:8b56 20786e40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643eb2ad
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 314fe49d
On Mar 19 05:10 96, George Rudzinski of 1:382/804 wrote:
GR> -=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>> That god knew what I would need many years ago and had prepared
JG>> my fiance at the time of her birth to grow up in such a way as
JG>> to meet my need the day I met her.
GR> This moron is going to jump into marriage without having a
GR> clue as to what marriage is all about.
I give it a year at the outside (ok, maybe two years).
But when the marriage fails, as it inevitably will, he'll have
a religious justification: he'll have discovered that she is
"of this world".
I've seen that phrase used so many times by Christians to explain
their failed relationships that I am convinced they would
prefer Martians as partners.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:57:54
EID:c5e5 20786f20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 643ec71b
REPLY: 1:116/19 01F397A0
On Mar 19 08:02 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> Again, C.S. Lewis. "God does not shake miracles into Nature at
AS> random like a pepper-caster. They come on great occasions; they
AS> are found at the great ganglions of history--not of political
AS> and social history, but of that spiritual history which cannot
AS> be fully known by men.
I love that last clause he tacks onto it.
It renders his entire claim totally untestable.
"It's not random! It follows a pattern you can not perceive!"
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: MONDO-Tacky
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:11:54
EID:5521 20788960
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64408f5b
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3154ee26
On Mar 24 01:39 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
JH>> Does she have a place to hide inside her enclosure? Even
JH>> rats need a little privacy.
PS> She does, but not to the extent that she had formerly. When
PS> I had a recycled squeeze bottle (sans lid) in there, she
PS> used to get in it and stay there. Ordinarily, this would not
PS> be a problem, but she stayed in there almost all the time
PS> and was scared to death of everything, including me. Since
PS> I've removed it, she no longer exhibits such symptoms.
Put it in the cage/tank/whatever when you want to sleep.
Take it out when her being an active little rat won't
be a bother to you. Putting a cover over her quarters (such
as people do with bird cages) might help some also. Not so
much to create darkness, but to remove the impression that
she is in the open (and hence, visable to predators).
And hand-feed more often, she'll be less likely to be scared
of you if she associates you with diner-time.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Cubanitos, Habana style.
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:26:58
EID:b9f7 20788b40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6440af5a
On Mar 24 06:19 96, Marty Leipzig of 1:106/113 wrote:
JH>> The cusine is strictly cuban, mostly chicken with rice or beans
JH>> and cooked with tommatoes and other fruits. Seasoning ranges
JH>> from "mildly hot" to "burns yer ass" and on up to "leaves
JH>> scortch marks on table".
ML> I just love Cuban Coffee with Pisco. Enough caffeine to
ML> wake the city of the dead with a EtOh sidecar just for
ML> grins.
I still remember the first time I ordered coffee in Miami.
They brought me this little demitase (or however you spell the
name of those cups stollen from doll sets) and I sat there
waiting for them to bring the coffee.
I thought I was supposed to pour the little shotglass thingie
into the coffee when they brought it.
I like expresso, but those little fucking cups are for the birds.
If I order it, I want a mug full.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Come Together
|Date: 24 Mar 96 22:28:40
EID:654b 2078b380
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64439f75
On Mar 21 17:49 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
NS> But I remember EXACTLY where I was, etc., when I heard about
NS> John Lennon. The only other national happening that ever rocked
NS> me like that was the Challenger explosion. Since then, I'm very
NS> into John Lennon. He had a mind that was sharp, enough cash to
NS> not have to deal with idiots, and he was outspoken. Plus he was
NS> a poet.
And he never had to steal a 50's song to sell a record. Despite the
fact that the title officially belongs to Ringo Starr, George
Harrison has to be "The Stupid Beatle". Harrison took "He's So Fine"
and added NOTHING to the song other than a new title and a Hairy
Krisha chorus and thought he could pass it off as original work.
I've heard several "Contemporary Christian" re-mixes of 'My Sweet
Lord' (Harry Krishna being tastefully changed to Hallelujah). I
have to wonder who they pay royalties to... Harrison? The Chiffons?
Or do they just pocket the money? (Thank you, Jesus!)
NS> I used to think Jackson an okay performer too, I still have
NS> records (I tell my kids that they're giant black CDs) of the
NS> Jackson Five. But now I just see him as someone desperately in
NS> need of a good slap and a dose of reality.
I've hated Jackson since before his first nose job.
There's just something wrong about a grown man who dresses
like Sargent Peper and sleeps in an aquarium with a monkey.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Come Together
|Date: 25 Mar 96 02:57:26
EID:654b 20791720
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64460436
On Mar 21 17:54 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
JH>> And the Good Humor Ice Cream Man down here has been
JH>> replaced by the independent owner opperator of a beat up
JH>> van or panel truck outfited with a PA that plays a
JH>> music-box version of either "The Bells of Saint Mary's" or
JH>> "Turkey In The Straw". I hate these guys and thier music
JH>> boxes with a passion.
NS> Me too. If I had a job like that, I'm sure I'd be tempted
NS> to play something else over the PA system, perhaps some nice
NS> punk stuff like Lee Ving and Fear or The Cramps . . .
I actually got into a 15 minute shouting match with one of them
one Sunday morning before 0800 (who eats icecream for breakfast
anyway?). I offered to pay the guy a dollar to turn the music
off... This offened his Mexican sense of machismo. Somehow my
offer was the greatest dishonor to him, his mother, his grandmother,
all his little brown children and the broken appliances in his
front yard. He would rather die than take my dollar and NO, he
was not going to turn it off. He turned it up instead. I opened
another beer and started waving the dollar around....
It was a weird Sunday morning.
I wouldn't even mind it if the music mechanism was IN TUNE and
the PA system didn't distort and clip the damned thing to where
it sounds like a gun battle in an auto-salvage yard.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 25 Mar 96 03:44:38
EID:b121 20791d80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 644653c2
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3154223d
On Mar 22 22:51 96, Lynda Bustilloz of 1:109/601 wrote:
NS>> I can go that one better: I know that Glenda the Good
NS>> exists because I saw her on television. Wait . . . wait .
NS>> . . I can go that two
LB> Glinda the televangelist?
NS>> better: I know that Glenda the Good exists because I have
NS>> her action figure (I bought it at the Disney Store)! };)
LB> *gasp* Making idols out of Glinda the Good?!! This
LB> figurine you bought was obviously False Glinda Scum.
I *KNOW* Glenda exists. I carry her silly ass I_UFO echo.
And she is both "the Good" and "False Scum". It's a Sacred
Geometery-type Duality thing that has to do with spirals.
Take two Juju eyeballs and call me in the morning.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 24 Mar 96 10:40:00
EID:0118 20785500
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cb68e4a0
PS>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dan Ceppa FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> DC> Have some more fun, and take it easy on Preston. After all,
PS> DC> he just recently got his god diploma. As he can get testy and
PS>I'm still waiting for it to actually arrive. Testy? Me? I'm one of
PS>the kindest and gentlest people I know.
Why, Preston, you're downright cuddly. As a god, I've never seen you
demand more than the sacrifice of butterflies and fuzzy puppies.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Not a morning person' doesn't even begin to cover it!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:948a 20787500
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00108807
J.j.,
JH>On Mar 18 04:58 96, Larry Bevard of 1:3615/51 wrote:
JH>
JH>LB> So when God kills, or orders others to kill, it is to protect
JH>LB> His people and advance the world, when we kill it is usually
JH>LB> because of selfishness.
JH>
JH>Ahhh....
JH>
JH>When God kills it is to further His own interests.
JH>When a human kills it to further their own interests.
JH>
JH>Thank you, the difference is much clearer now.
I guess you could put it that way. I cannot make excusses for God,
but all I know is that God said for us not to kill, and that is good
enough for me.
take care,
Larry Bevard
___
* UniQWK v4.1 * The Windows Mail Reader
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 5
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:9d61 20787500
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00108821
David,
DR> -=> Quoting Larry Bevard to David Rice <=-
DR>
DR>>DR> FACT #1: no one knows what Jesus may have said, since
DR>>DR> he left no writings and there are no known
DR>>DR> records of what he might have said that were
DR>>DR> written by witnesses.
DR>
DR>LB> Upon greatest authority, both Christian and secular, the
DR>LB> letters as recorded in the New Testement are shown to be
DR>LB> authentic and at least Half of them, with no dispute, was
DR>LB> written by the people that we Christians say they were
DR>LB> written by, Paul, John, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew, Mark,
DR>LB> all witnesses to the life, death and risen life of Jesus.
DR>
DR>You are being silly.
DR>
DR>1) Saul of Tarsus ("Paul") never met Jesus.
DR>
DR>2) The authors of _Matthew,_ _Luke,_ _John,_ and
DR> _Mark_ are unknown: they are anonimous works,
DR> written by people who never met Jesus because
DR> they were not alive at the time. The best one
DR> may say is that one of two of them were writen
DR> by followers of a deciple.
No, your being silly. Internal evidence from the letters, as well
as accounts of writtings about them from the early church does indicate
that who we say wrote these letters are the ones that did write them.
John and Matthew were apostles, Mark and Luke lived and worked with
several of the apostles soon after the death of Jesus.
DR>3) Your "greatest authority" is bullshit.
DR>
DR>>DR> FACT #2: Jesus had no notion of what a Christian is,
DR>>DR> since the cult wasn't started unill several
DR>>DR> hundred years after he was stoned to death.
DR>
DR>LB> Joke right?
DR>
DR>I said nothing about your face.
And I said nothing about your intellegence. But, be that as it may,
the Christian movement was well established by 100 AD. The Roman Church
was started about 50 AD as was other Gentile Churches, to say nouthing
about the Jewish churches that was already well established by 40 AD.
DR>LB> Jesus was hung on a Cross[sic].
DR>
DR>There is no evidence for such a claim.
What, that Jesus was hung on a Cross or that there was a Jesus.
There is some evidence that Jesus lived and that He was crucified, but
since He was not a particularly famous person when He was alive, we
don't have as much evidence as say Caesar. Now, we only have a few
fleeting accounts as to His death at the hands of Brutus, but most
people don't question the account of his death.
DR>LB> And as far as a Church being started, the Christian
DR>LB> moment started 10 days after Jesus assended into Heaven
DR>
DR>Since people do not "assend into heaven," and since there are
DR>Christians in the world, your statement is self-contradictory.
I take it you don't believe in the bible, right?
DR>LB> which is 50 days after He[sic] had died and risen. Within
DR>LB> 20 years, there were Christians in every major city of
DR>LB> the Roman Empire.
DR>
DR>You have a real freaky idea of what "Christianity" is. The
DR>followers of Jesus, up until about 200CE, could AT BEST be
DR>called "Messianic Jews." Christianity came along much latter.
It is your understanding of Christian history that is faulty. As I
said above, by 100 AD, there were established Churches in most areas of
the Roman Empire. Only a part of these were Jewish or even followed
parts of the Jewish faith in their practice of Christianity. In fact,
by 100 AD most of the major jewish centers of Christianity had be
dispersed because of the Jewish uprising in 70 AD. leaving the Gentile
churches on their own. Now, if you are refering to the firm hold that
the Roman Church extablished on the Christian faith, that did not come
until after 325 AD, but there had been a lot of Christians before this.
DR>LB> The Followers of Jesus were originally refered to as
DR>LB> Followers of The Way. Later they became know as Christians,
DR>LB> i.e. followers of Christ.
DR>
DR>Hundreds of years later.
They were first called Christians in Antioch in 55 AD.
DR>>JG> And in a christian[sic] country the label "christian" is
DR>>JG> indeed useless because it is used as a social enhancement.
DR>
DR>>DR> A Christian is anyone who professes to be a Christian.
DR>>DR> There is no other known test for Christianhood.
DR>
DR>LB> Getting back to the original comment, we can know a
DR>LB> Christian by the way he acts.
DR>
DR>Since Christians disagree with you, your assertion is false.
You did not read very closely, I did not say that a Christian is a
Christian only if he acts as a Christian, I said that we would know a
Christian by his actions. This is Biblical and I very much doubt that
many Christians would disagree with it.
DR>LB> If he acts in a way that follows the teachings of the
DR>LB> Bible and what Christ would do, then we can be sure he
DR>LB> is Christian.
DR>
DR>Since hundreds of thousands of Christians call other hundreds
DR>of thousands of Christians "not real true Christians," your
DR>silly assertion is demonstrated false.
DR>
DR>LB> That is the test.
DR>
DR>The only test for Christianhood is to ask someone if she or
DR>he is a Christian.
DR>
DR>LB> But, you are correct in that until we know a person, if
DR>LB> he states he is a Christian, then we would have to accept
DR>LB> that and expect him to act as a Christian.
DR>
DR>Some Christians butcher people, and other Christians do not.
DR>Yet they are both Christians. Therefore your assertion is
DR>false.
DR>
DR>LB> But, if he fails to act the part, the we can question if
DR>LB> he is truly Christian.
DR>
DR>It is not for you to "question" any such thing.
So, If a liberal don't like jewish (or other groups) and don't hold
to liberal views, is he truly a liberal? And it is not I that would be
questioning whether a person that professes to be a christian, yet does
not act the part, is truly a Christian, it is his actions that speaks
against him. It is just like the Democrates that suddenly decided they
were republicans to get reelected. Were they truly Democrates?
DR>Now then. Don't you feel like a real stupid shit (again)?
Not particularly. Thank you for asking anyway.
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: children
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:5304 20787500
MSGID: 1:3615/51 0010883a
Steve,
SR>Larry Bevard wrote in a message to Kevin D. McKenzie:
SR>
SR>LB> do. We are to treat others as we would like to be treated, Love
SR>LB> each other as Jesus loved us.
SR>
SR>And like a good little sheep...you blindly follow what your myth-masters
tell
SR>you to do. Here let me adjust your ball-and-chain for you. Your ankles
are
SR>swelling a bit.
So, you are saying that treating others as well as we would like to
be treated is a bad thing? I pitty the people that has to be around you
. And, as far as being in chains to my faith, it is my faith that
has set be free, free from the malice and hatred, the distrust and
parinoa that I suffered from before I allowed Jesus into my life. I
don't blindly follow Jesus, I do so willingly and with full knowledge.
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Claims of deity construc
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:be3e 20787500
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00108853
J.j.,
JH>On Mar 18 04:59 96, Larry Bevard of 1:3615/51 wrote:
JH>
JH>LB> Try reading such books as "A brief History of Time" by
JH>LB> Stephen Hawkings and other modern astro-physics books that
JH>LB> explores time and the creation of the Universe.
JH>
JH>Got my copy right here in my fat little hand.
JH>You're going to regret mentioning that book, I assure you.
JH>
JH>LB> Very interesting discussion on the need for an outside force to
JH>LB> start the Big-Bang as well as an intellengece to guide the
JH>LB> creation to bring us to the point we are at.
JH>
JH>Give exact quote and page number.
JH>So sorry, but I'm calling your bluff.
JH>Give the exact quote and the page number where the above claim
JH>is allegedly made.
I was about to write an excuse that the Library sold their copy of this
book, but I checked with them and they still had it, so I bought it.
Your right, so far I have not found any discussion of a cause of the big
bang happening. I have read it before some where, but can't remember if
it was in his essays or in articles in Christian Discipleship magazine
or other places that I can't remember. As far as a design to the
Universe, you only have to refer to pp. 122-123 of "A Brief History of
Time" to see the question asked of why original conditions were as they
were. As a quote from Hawkings in John Boslough's book "Masters of
Time-Cosmology at the End of Innocence", states;
The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something
like the big bang are enormous...I think clearly there are
religious implications whenever you start to discuss the origins
of the universe. There must be religious overtones. But I
think scientists prefer to shy away from the religious side of it.
Also, page 125 of a Brief history of time, as well as His general
discussion of the other theories of Why?, where he generally debunks
these other ideas, presents a general picture that certain conditions
had to exist for the universe to be and for mankind to form.
JH>LB> He also points out that there has to exist an "outside" to the
JH>LB> universe in order for the Universe to expand, and that this
JH>LB> "outside" does not need to follow the rules of the inside.
JH>
JH>Again, substantiate this with Hawkings own words, not your
JH>half-assed notion of what you thought he was saying,
I was wrong, sorry, it isn't in this book. So again you got me. I
do remember this discussion so it must have been from the Christian
Decipleship magazine article. The point I was trying to develop was the
concept that using a real sense of what we know of Space-time, that in a
real sense there has to exist a boundry to the universe. From what I
remember of the discussion, Hawkings went on to define our understanding
of empty space. This he contrasted with defining the other space, the
one that the universe is expanding into, as very different. For one
thing, and this he hints at in "A Brief History of Time", time could not
exist outside of the universe. So, the other space has to be truly
empty. In this discussion also was the discussion of the creation of
time in the universe microseconds after the Big Bang. He discribes the
creation of multi-dimesions, 24 in all, until the universe finally
collapsed into the 4 we know. I'll continue looking for this article to
give you exact quotations.
JH>LB> Others have pointed out how the Biblical accounts discribe what
JH>LB> would be observed of the big-bang from the outside, as well as
JH>LB> discribe the true nature of the universe after creation.
JH>
JH>While you're at it, give the Biblical citations that describe the
JH>"Big Bang". Pay special attention to those that describe it "from
JH>the outside".
That I can do, hopefully to your satifaction. Gen. 1:1b.; "now the
earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep,
and the spirit of god was hovering over the waters." Now, since the
waters had not be seperated yet or star or the sun or moon had not been
created, this would have been a discription of what the whole universe
would have looked like before any other creation had taken place. The
King James gives a better discription, but I only have the NIV with me.
Fred Heeren, a Christian writer gave this discription to several
astro-physist and they were quoted in Fred's book, "Show Me God", as a
good discription of what the outside of the primorial singlarity would
have looked like as observed from outside. I know this is not much
proof, but taking into account the Jewish discription of the Universe as
being on three planes, earth, sky (including the stars) and the Heaven,
it is a biblical fit. Also discribed in the bible in several places,
including vss. 14 and 17 in Gen. 1, is the filiments of Heaven. This
word in the hebrew indicates a spreading out or expanding, which
discribes the expanding universe. There are a few other verses that
discribe the universe, but since the bible was never meant to be a
science book, a lot of details that we would like to have is missing.
One point is that toward the end of the book, "A Brief History of
Time", Hawkings develops an unified model of the Universe, one with no
begining or boundary. This is further discussed in his essays. But, as
pointed out in his book on p. 9, in his discussion of what a sceintific
theory is, Hawkings states, "...a theory is just a model of the
universe,...It exists only in our minds and does not have any other
reality (what ever that is)." In his essays, he states that his latest
theory does not reflect reality, in his theory, it does away with all
black holes or even possiblities of them existing, which is not reality.
Also, it uses such constructs as virtual particals and imaginary time
to make this model work, things that have not real counterparts. So,
just because the final theory does away with the need for a god to start
and control things, does not make it real. Hawkings is quoted in the
above magazine article, after a discussion of the newest partical that
accounts for the missing mass of the universe, that "if this does show
their is a God, then nouthing will."
The main function of science is to discribe the when, where and How.
The function of religion is to discribe the why. The two use to be
combined in the study of philosophy, but then they became sepperated
last century. Under our present system, science isn't suppose to ask
the why and religion is not suppose to ask the how or when or where,
but, a greater understanding can come for combining the two, not arguing
if one or the other is right or wrong.
Again, sorry for opening my mouth when I could not back up the
information. but, I have read alot on this subject lately and misquoted
my resourses. But, that does not mean they are any less factual, its
just that I misplaces the references. I'd be glad to contiue this
discussion with you any time.
Larry Bevard
Larry Bevard
___
* UniQWK v4.1 * The Windows Mail Reader
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 5
* Origin: 1:3615/50 (1:3615/51)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: #smoke
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:49:15
EID:3461 20789e20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315641ea
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64318288
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
ryan and Martin were killing time yakking about #smoke:
rs> ...and Jimbo, don't forget to point your web browser to
rs> http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~rshaw. You're even on it! There
rs> are even examples of your lovely true christian quotes for the
rs> entire world to see.
MG> In case you didn't get my missive, in your area on alternate
MG> religions, you have omitted Daisy the Pink One. This blasphemy shall
MG> not go unpunished.
Daisy's there, Martin! She's just invisible.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... How do you know when you have run out of invisible ink?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:09:03
EID:3063 2078a120
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315641eb
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 642fb932
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Preston and J.J. were killing time yakking about "No True Christian...":
JH> On Mar 22 15:39 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
PS> Jesus beat some people in a temple. Jesus said that he'd
PS> come to bring a sword, not peace. Jesus cursed a fig tree,
PS> for crying out loud. Do these look like the actions of a
PS> nice guy?
JH> And my favorite: he called the Samaritan woman a bitch.
Oh, fine. Give Prewett scriptural justification for his namecalling! JUST
what he needs....
"Catty Bitch"
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... And malt does more than Milton can to justify God's ways to man.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: #smoke
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:54:24
EID:6e8b 2078a6c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315641ec
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 315284cf
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and David were killing time yakking about #smoke:
LB> you in IRC. If Jim can get access, too, you could put all sorts of
LB> suspicions to rest once and for all, simply by both you and Jim being
LB> present in #holysmoke at the same time. :)
DW> Really? Do you think Annette is a real person, too? :)
(G) No, but I do think that the Staal Crew are incapable at this point
of
creating an Annette. And they have not yet appeared together.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Computers, blondes and jazz seldom go together." -- Riker
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: christology
|Date: 23 Mar 96 09:31:00
EID:a1ba 20774be0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3154149d
Here's what Norbert Sykes said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
NS> christology:
NS> 1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Lee Woofenden,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
???
LW> Could well be. Though you didn't address the other part of what I
LW> said: that people charged with crimes often claim religious belief to
LW> try to get themselves off the hook.
NS> Lanning adresses that particular point with some hesitancy. He notes
NS> that people try to get out if any way they can, even to the point of
NS> claiming religion. Apparently, he likes to remove all aspects of
NS> religion from a case and then look at it. I imagine its a pretty
NS> hard path to follow, especially for anyone indoctrinated in one of the
NS> major religions.
I think religion must be considered as a possible factor when considering
motives for a crime. To take an extreme case, someone who adheres to a religion
that practices human sacrifice would have to be treated somewhat differently
in a murder trial relating to his/her religious practice than someone who,
say, shot a convenience store clerk in the course of a robbery.
However, I also think there are limits to what can be allowed in the name
of religion. As far as I'm concerned, if there were any people practicing
human sacrifice in this country, they _should_ be tried, because that is
beyond acceptable limits for religious practice in our culture. Just where
that line should be drawn is a matter that requires continual consideration
and debate as our societal norms and religious values evolve.
LW> Still, it wouldn't particularly surprise me if "Christians" do more
LW> child abuse than people of other religions even percentage wise. Those
LW> who call themselves Christians live by their religion far less than
LW> people of other religions do.
NS> Another thing is that there is a huge population out there that will
NS> just call themselves Xtian if asked what their religion is, if for no
NS> other reason than the concept of other religions never presents
NS> itself to them. The one true way, and all that, you know . . .
That's what I was saying. There are a lot of nominal Christians out there.
However, fundy atheists in this echo have branded it a heresy to recognize
that many Christians do not practice what they preach, and even more of
a heresy to entertain the idea that many Christians have beliefs that they
call Christian but that violate the basic teachings of Christianity--and
therefore are non-Christian.
--Lee
... A police state is great, as long as you're the police.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:42:55
EID:3107 20775d40
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 31542f60
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E41
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about CHRISTOLOGY:
LW>> If you are talking about the Bible, yes, I have read and studied it
LW>> for many years.
DC>> Too bad you have only read it.
BJ> Lee, this one is easy enough to figure out. What I took the post to
LW> If that's what he meant, why didn't he say it clearly--as you just
LW> did?
DC> Because I gave you credit for far greater reading comprehension than
DC> you deserved.
LW>> development of the mythos of a particular segment of the human race
BJ> Still doesn't discount the fact that it IS a mythos...
LW> Your point being?
DC> As above, she has now made the same mistake of assuming you have a
DC> reading level above 3rd grade.
Dan, I do editing and proofreading professionally as part of my living.
I am currently one of the editors on a project that involves re-editing
a 30 volume set to prepare a new edition. I am considered one of the best
on the project. In light of that, your insults about my reading level sound
rather silly.
However, if, instead of taking your reply to a college level English professor
you'd rather bring it to a 3rd grade teacher, be my guest. The 3rd grade
teacher should also be able to tell you that your reply was ambiguous.
--Lee
... Facts that do not conform to theory must be disposed of.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: christology
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:52:42
EID:3107 20775e80
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 31542f61
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E48
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> Au contraire. I understand what _I_ wrote quite well.
DC> Then, Lee, you would not have had to have someone else explain
DC> to you about what I responded, would you?
This is laughable. Because _your_ reply is ambiguous, my comprehension of
what _I_ wrote is faulty?
Come on, Dan. You can do better than this.
--Lee
... All the world's a stage, and most of us are desperately unrehearsed.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: christology
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:54:50
EID:3107 20775ec0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 31542f62
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E49
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> It amuses me that you continue to refer to the Bible as "my book,"
LW> since I, for one, do not claim any authorship of it whatever.
DC> Then do yourself a favor and throw it away. After all, you
DC> have admitted above that it does not have a clue as to the
DC> current level of technology and the rights of those that have
DC> developed it.
So does this mean we should throw away all books that are more than a few
years old? Hey, let's get rid of _all_ our cultural and technological history!
After all, those old books by authors like Aristotle and Newton don't have
a clue as to the current level of technology and the rights of those that
have developed it. Let's expunge our societal memory of the past and live
without historical context!
Then we'd _really_ be short-sighted.
Dan, you're letting your emotions about the Bible overcome your reason.
Please try to step back and look at the matter a little more objectively.
Then we can have an intelligent discussion instead of all these silly put-downs
and knee-jerk reactions about the Bible.
--Lee
... Habits are first cobwebs, then cables.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 23 Mar 96 12:00:41
EID:2ecb 20776000
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 31542f63
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E4A
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about Epistemology 1/2:
KB> around for umpteen millenia, and in all that time nobody has been
KB> able to offer even a method of detecting the thing being discussed -
LW> Not true at all. Various religious teachers, sages, and mystics have
LW> been offering methods of "detecting" (i.e., experiencing) God and
LW> spirit for umpteen millennia. If you reject their methods out of hand,
LW> that is not their fault.
DC> So, Lee, just where is this "God Detector" and what gods has it
DC> detected? Is the device registered in the US Patent Department,
DC> and what is it's patent number?
You should know by now that I am not referring to any physical instrument
that could be patented. Detecting God is a matter of direct experience on
the spiritual level. Scientific instruments are unable to detect God because
their field of usefulness is the material level--and God is not a material
entity.
--Lee
... Imagination is more important than knowledge. --Albert Einstein
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: christology
|Date: 23 Mar 96 23:13:12
EID:4328 2077b9a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3154d2df
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0009fa5c
Here's what Larry Bevard said to Martin Goldberg about christology:
LB> I can understand your anger at such a god that would allow the
LB> suffering to continue as it does. Why for instincts did God
LB> allow my two girls to be sexually abused by an Elder in our
LB> church? Why does he even allow this man to live when he has done
LB> this many other times.
LB> [...]
LB> I had several chances of just revealing this man's name, and
LB> another would have dealt with him as he deserved. But, I knew
LB> that the man needed pitty and help and not just to be killed.
I hope you (or somebody) took steps to make sure he would not do this to
any more children...
--Lee
... Expect nothing... blame no one... do something.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 101/525 330 180 324/288 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 23 Mar 96 23:47:31
EID:4f2e 2077bde0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3154d68f
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 ea9ab999
Here's what Marilyn Burge said to Lee Woofenden about THE PATTERN OF THE
BIBLE:
LW> You are assuming that you grasp the message God is trying to convey.
I
LW> would suggest that this message has more to do with the motives than
LW> the action.
MB> You are reaching in order to justify the unjustifiable. He ordered
MB> his chosen people to not only commit genocide, but to kill all the
MB> women who had "known" a man and then take all the virgins for
MB> themselves.
From my perspective, Marilyn, God never ordered those people to do any such
thing. However, they _believed_ God ordered them to do it, and therefore
they recorded it that way.
MB> That is an order of magnitude different than what you describe below.
MB> In fact, what you describe below tends to equate adults with newborns
MB> in terms of cognition. I find that grossly insulting. Take your god
MB> who talks babytalk and cram him where the sun don't shine.
You are applying current norms and abilities in terms of ethical standards
and intelligence to people who lived several thousand years ago and were
nowhere near as far along as what is "normal" to us. We're not talking about
how you or I might hear God speaking to us now in our present culture. We're
talking about how people who lived two to four millennia ago in cultures
more brutal and less scientifically developed than our own heard God speaking.
And I remind you that I think they heard God wrong.
--Lee
... Common sense is what tells you that the world is flat.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 23 Mar 96 13:15:43
EID:0448 207769e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 69a9dccc
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8948438A
On (22 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to 3b1e4a59cf...
MH> Atheists, I maintain, cannot do the same, as atheists have no
MH> single moral ideal. Some atheists of high character may
MH> choose to be generous and honest. Fine. Yet atheists who choose to
be
MH> selfish and venal are not violating any atheistic moral standard. On
MH> what grounds would another atheist call them "wrong?" Personal
MH> opinion, or societal opinion at most.
We don't NEED to have a single moral belief. We follow the standard we
have voluntarily developed and accepted. That's a far higher level of
moral development than needing God to tell us to do such and so.
... No one could pin anything on Lady Godiva.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 24 Mar 96 05:23:03
EID:0b82 20782ae0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7bf030f0
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 290b3227
On (22 Mar 96) Sean McCullough wrote to Sue Armstrong...
> NS> There is a brutal parrallel in the story of the natives of
> NS> Terra del Fuega. But I don't have details.
> I wouldn't be surprised if there was. Death and destruction
> seems to have followed Christian migrants wherever they went,
> with death on a scale not seen since the Roman circuses - and
> surpassing them.
SM> No surprise, when you consider that most Christian migrations
SM> carried not only deliberate genocidal wars, but brand-new
SM> DISEASES in their wake as well. Even in places where
SM> Christianity invaded relatively peacefully, the deaths from
SM> disease ALONE made death at the Roman Circuses quite pleasant
SM> by comparison.
The missionaries of past generations have so thoroughly done their
job that the ONLY justification for continuing said missions is
much the same as the cigaret companies' justification for
advertising: to steal "market share" from one another. Given that,
it is hardly surprising that you would get such a response if you
asked a "mission" group the question you suggest.
Quite frankly, I see the "work" that missionaries do (with the
exception of those missionaries that are FAR more interested in
improving living conditions than they are in saving souls) as being
VERY destructive, imperialistic, and egotistical. The mere thought
of one human being thinking that their religious point of view is
superior to that of another is, IMHO, an abomination. Some of the
religions these scum have wiped out are older than the written
language and have therefore served the adherents in a manner that
ensures their survival far, far longer than Christianity, Judaism,
or any other newcomer on the block we Westerners could possibly
imagine.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
... And on the 8th day God said, "Ok, Murphy, you're in charge."
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 24 Mar 96 05:32:04
EID:da31 20782c00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 2047e186
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2913b8bd
On (22 Mar 96) Sean McCullough wrote to Al Schroeder...
SM> And WHY -- in the name of Wotan, WHY!! -- do men with the
SM> beater disease EVER succeed in attracting ANYONE??!!?
You have to remember that little girls have a bond with their
fathers that is deeper than you can imagine. It's the old Electra
Complex thing. It's very real. Given that, if a father treats his
little girl that way, she grows up thinking that's how females are
treated. Unless she has a huge dollop of the ability to question
EVEERYTHING, as I did, she takes such treatment for granted by the
time she's twelve. As much as I adored (even worshipped) my
father, there came a time in my life when I realized I was
liberated by his death from that sort of treatment, and there was
no way I was ever going to consider going back. But, for many,
they just never wake up to the fact that not all women are treated
that way, and they don't have to be treated as they are either.
Then there are those who think that such treatment is a sign that
the guy is emotionally engaged. I lived across the street from a
woman who thought that way. I happened to mention one time that
Lou and I had never displayed any sign of jealousy toward one
another in all the years we'd been married. Incredulous, she said
"you mean he isn't the LEAST BIT jealous if he sees you talking to
another man?" When I assured her he wasn't, that I could gauge his
love for me by the fact that he got out of bed every morning and
worked 12 hours a day to support Louie and me (what more
demonstration of love could a woman ask for than this?), she
replied, "then, how can you tell he loves you?" All I could do was
shake my head in disgust and astonishment that she even had to
have such a barometer of her man's "affection."
I still wonder how a person's mind can become that warped.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose On
|Date: 24 Mar 96 09:53:45
EID:c12d 20784ea0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 a7580c82
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 15392632
On (Fri 22 Ma) Rick Mcfarlane wrote to Dan Ceppa...
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
MB> is mandated to makescouting available to all boys who meet entrance
MB> age requirements irrespective of race, religion, or ethnic origin.
RM> ...
RM> Looks to me like this court has just decided that atheism is a
RM> religion.
DC> No more so than the Constitution is a document that requires a
DC> religion to be a citizen of this country.
RM> According to Marilyn's note, it had nothing to do with your
RM> constitution - the judge based his decision on the part of the BSA
RM> charter which says that anyone is accepted, regardless of their
RM> religion, clearly classing atheism as a religion.
There is really more to it than that. The BSA is hawked in the
public schools. In many communities, it uses school facilities
free of charge (and did long before the equal-access laws were
enacted). In short, the BSA wants it both ways: the ability to
retain its "right" to discriminate against people based on their
religious stance (not religion, but stance), and the "right" to
mix freely with the government and its institutions. Did you know
the BSA also operates under a Federal charter? That makes it
subject to anti-discrimination laws, the same as a government
contractor would be.
RM> But, since you brought up your constitution, the question of
RM> the day is:
RM> In the USA, can the B'nai Brith legally exclude Moslems from
RM> membership?
Probably. Do they operate under a Federal charter? Do they
exist as an arm of a church? Is the BSA an arm of a church?
If it is, then it certainly has no business in our schools.
They want it both ways, but their days of geting it both ways
are clearly numbered.
... David Duke: Sheet for brains.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: CC5
|Date: 24 Mar 96 10:15:07
EID:2bd7 207851e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 86991d57
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3153f204
On (22 Mar 96) Sue Armstrong wrote to George Rudzinski...
GR> "It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the
GR> great builders of our nation almost to a man have been
GR> Christians, because Christians have the desire to build
GR> something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he
GR> builds. The people who have come into [our] institutions
GR> [today] are primarily termites. They are into destroying
GR> institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it
GR> is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we
GR> have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the
GR> way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly
GR> fumigation." (PAT ROBERTSON, NEW YORK MAGAZINE, August 18,
GR> 1986)
SA> The complete and utter ignorance about the life around them
SA> is probably the most staggering aspect of Christians. Every
SA> time one of them says something completely stupid and
SA> uninformed, I lose just that much more respect for such a
SA> narrow-minded religious world view.
There's something else wrong with his statement. How can he
possibly know that builders are "motivated by love of man and love
of god"? He offers not one shred of evidence to support that bald
assertion. It is one of those grandiose statements that is made
with one purpose in mind: to prop up an assertion for which there
is also no evidence. The entire statement from start to finish is
nothing more than his take on How Things Should Be , which is,
in turn, based on his take on How God Wants Things to Be ,
both of which are, truth be known, synonymous (i.e., are nothing
more than how HE thinks things should be.
... Sight is a faculty; seeing is an art, observing is a science.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Mike Carr
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:44:00
EID:a441 20786d80
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2a0c57fc
REPLY: 1:284/120 77031075
PID: FM 2.02
> I had a copy of her book, but alas, it gone. I think it was written in
> the early sixtys. She went to Lourdes (like you) a skeptic.
"That's what they all say." It doesn't take a Pulitzer-winning writer to
insert such a claim in a faith-propaganda tract.
Doesn't make said claim true, you know.
>-> > The question still stands 'why not miracles' Sean?
>->
>-> Because we live in a self-extant universe which runs by fixed, immuta
>-> Sean
> , Fixed, immutable laws implies a lawgiver that gives direction.
Nope. As I stated before, the universe is self-extant. No creator involved.
>-> There is no such thing as "God".
> You just told me that the "universe" runs things. That would be your
> "God" would it not?
No. The use of the term "God" is, in fact, an assertion that the universe
is either intelligent or desirous of worship, neither one of which assertions
is true.
You are desperately trying to contrive "Gods" where there are in fact none.
>-> I do not traffick in faith. You want me to believe in God, produce him
>-> Either show me the single location where God is, or cause God to appe
>-> room where my computer is (there is no God in said place at this time
> Sean
> , You trafic in faith everyday.
False statement.
I know better than you whether I traffick in faith or not. And I don't.
If I accept any concept whatsoever, it is because I have garnered enough
direct evidence -- evidence derived from direct observation -- to support
said concept.
This is where your faith becomes, in the immortal words of Samuel "Mark
Twain" Clemens, "believing what you [should] know ain't so". You accept
the existence of some God-thing or other based on nothing but a contrived
argument from indirect evidence combined with a funny internal feeling called
faith. This is NOT enough to evidence the truth of the claims involved.
All the indirect evidence on Earth is totally worthless without corroboration
of DIRECT evidence. Not only would you have to show me that the claimed
"miracle healings" at Lourdes were just that, but you would have to show
me the God at work doing them as well.
My world and universe consists of repeatably observable facts and nothing
else. This is true of any thinking person.
"I have no beliefs." -- Marty Leipzig, PhD.
>-> Until SOME believer produces hir God for the faithless, it remains es
>-> that there is no such thing.
> "Remains Established", come on!
Yes, "Remains Established".
ALL negatives are true unless DIRECTLY evidenced false. All AFFIRMATIVE
assertions are established as false until similarly evidenced true.
I have this promissory note, signed by you, and due and payable today. It
calls for ten million troy ounces of 24-carat gold, with the sum doubling
each day that payment is late.
Prove I don't have such a note, or pay up.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Mike Carr
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:47:01
EID:a441 20786de0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2a0c57fd
REPLY: 1:284/120 77031075
PID: FM 2.02
>-> Until SOME believer produces hir God for the faithless, it remains es
>-> that there is no such thing.
> "Remains Established", come on! You are a contingent being, a
> receipient of life or existence. All material beings are. Close your
> eyes for a moment and imagine a universe populated only with receipients
> of life and nowhere an originator.
I don't need to "close my eyes". The world you describe IS the world that's
out there.
Just because there are people IN that world who believe without real evidence
doesn't make their funny internal feeling (faith) any more factual. It just
means they believe -- and nothing else.
> See you at Mass Michael
Please be so kind as to leave the unaffected out of your ritual cannibalism.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Holysmoke faq /001
|Date: 23 Mar 96 19:04:02
EID:926c 20779880
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2992c920
REPLY: 1:157/200 76140341
PID: FM 2.02
> SEAN MCCULLOUGH spoke thusly to ALL :
> SM> Header
> SM> The HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List
> SM> Created by David Rice
> SM> Current Author: Sean McCullough (Editor-in-Chief)
> SM> Authors/Editors: Various Heathens in Network 1:128
> SM>
> SM> Revised 15 Jan 11996 - Revision 666.025 by Coridon
> SM> Revised 1Henshaw 6 March 1996 -- Revision 6.02 *
> SM> 1.0E+23 (First
> Thank you very much, Sean, but a request . . . could you make the size
a
> bit longer?
Nope. The limitation is imposed by FidoNet, not me.
The traditional limitation of message length in Fido -- 6400 Bytes, 80 lines
at 80 ch/line -- is the primary governance to where the "slices" took place;
I also tried to keep individual articles together as much as I could, breaking
at sentence or paragraph lines when I could not help but split an article.
> This thing was split into 40+ posts.
And will remain so.
The problem here is that certain NEC's insist on the "6400 Byte Tradition"
being forever maintained. As a direct result, I *have* to split the FAQ
into particles that small, to insure that all of it gets everywhere intact.
Coridon's INSISTENCE on Internet-style 10KB messages has been evidenced
(including by yourself) to be THE cause of the FAQ not arriving whole and
intact to numerous users. It is far more economical for a block of 40+ posts
to make it everywhere the first time, than for user after user to complain
that (s)he didn't get different parts of it. The result of the latter strategy
is essentially a continuous re-posting of the whole damn thing, with predictable
cost consequences for those who pay to move HolySmoke around.
Truth be told, *I* don't like it much either. But my choices are: either
cut it to lowest common denominator, or end up with it mangled and pieces
missing upon arrival. This is not acceptable, as I have demonstrated above.
I suggest that you capture all the pieces, cut out the message headers,
and read it as a unified document. Alternatively, when I finish the Rework
Project and have the FAQ ready for Internet consumption, the document so
prepared will be available for download from my uplink, 1:128/203.
This should be finished in a few more days.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Colors
|Date: 24 Mar 96 01:13:03
EID:9796 207809a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2a00ed3f
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89490E27
PID: FM 2.02
> ... "Sorry, Boss, we hit Sodom & Gommarh instead. Lot got away."
ŪŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪ
Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū ŪŪŪŪŪŪ Ū Ū Ū Ū ŪŪ
ŪŪŪŪŪ Ū Ū Ū ŪŪŪ Ū Ū ŪŪ Ū ŪŪŪŪŪ Ū Ū ŪŪ
Ū ŪŪ Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū Ū
ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪ ŪŪŪŪŪ ŪŪ
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Noahs Ark
|Date: 24 Mar 96 01:17:04
EID:54e4 20780a20
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2a00ed40
PID: FM 2.02
> DM> How many morons can you fit into Noahs Ark?
> DM> None, They're all Atheist!
> Did you notice that there were no Christians on Noah's Ark?
How many Christians can you fit into Noah's Ark??
None -- Cthulhu ate them all, and then had the Ark itself for dessert!!
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: 3B1E4A59CF
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: 225CE1A04E0
|Date: 24 Mar 96 01:30:05
EID:1cbe 20780bc0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2a00ed41
PID: FM 2.02
> 3b> ! Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter!
> Wasn't one of the frequent criticisms of the Jim Staal Collection that
> he used pseudonyms in order to circumvent twit filters? :)
No.
Staal was criticized for insisting that the pseudonyms were other actual
humans.
I invite you most cordially to show me where I represented *my* use of them
to
be for any other save the following reasons:
(1) To bypass a twit filter, as is being done here; or
(2) For satirical purposes related to the receiver (such as when I
posted to Christopher Calabrese as "Sloth Pig".
I have made no bones whatsoever as to why I used a pseudonym. That's why
it
arrived with an unchanged Origin line.
And large random hexadecimal numbers in the "From:" field are essentially
a
*scream* that a twitfilter is being bypassed.
> If it's not going to work any better than this, I might as well turn
it
> off. :)
Or leave the echo directly, publically, and honestly.
No other choices exist -- for ANY OF US.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: FUNDIES ARE WONDERFUL FOL
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:34:00
EID:50bc 20787c40
PID: RA 2.02 143
MSGID: 1:128/203 56f408e8
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3152d6ec
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
>> Because they were HOMELESS? Wasn't Jesus that guy who hung
>> around
>> with poor folk? Or am I thinking of someone else? Buddha,
>> perhaps?
_I_ was under the impression that Jesus walked amongst the poor, downtrodden,
and other less fortunate souls.
Maybe we're both wrong, maybe it was Buddha!
>> So much for churches taking over care of the poor if social
>> services
No kidding!!!!!
>> were done away with. Next you'll have missions turning away
>> the
>> hungry from their soup lines because the hungry and homeless
>> are
>> too ragged or aren't wearing proper dinner attire.
Yeah! Only the well-to-do poor are admitted to the soup kitches!!!
NOT!!!!
>> ... Catastrophe: Award given to the cat with the cutest
THIS is funny!!!!
---
* Origin: A-viking on the cyber sea (1:128/203)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION
|Date: 23 Mar 96 08:14:00
EID:e6a5 207741c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3155e343
A lone voice in the wilderness, Judith mournfully howled out "AN INTERESTING
SITUATION"
MH> animals when we obviously don't need them in the cities? We already
MH> have an effective law enforcement unit here ...
JB>
JB> Because horses make a good way of breaking the barriers between the
JB> police and the people. Even when not working crowd control, a mounted
JB> officer will draw a crowd. Most people will want to pet the animal.
In
JB> the course of that, conversations start. Kids especially start to see
JB> the police as people and not the enemy. As turnabout, the mounted
JB> officer also gets exposed to the people as more than 'uncaught felons'.
JB> A mounted patrol is good public relations.
I've seen this work quite well in Toronto - they have regular
mounted patrols there. It was always nice to be able to go pat
the horses and chat with the mounted cop. The police also seem
more helpful when they're mounted, too, as opposed to just riding
around in cars .. when I was working for the pizza place up there,
when it first opened, sometimes I'd have to deliver the orders on
foot (as well as cook them) because we were often short of drivers
at first. One time, a mounted cop drew up alongside and asked
what I was doing. I explained, and he escorted me to the address
and back (there had been a few instances of delivery people
getting mugged recently.) It was a nice gesture, and I felt
better for it; plus it was nice to have the company for the walk.
:)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "My Lord, I have a cunning plan." - Baldrick, several times.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: misogynist
|Date: 23 Mar 96 09:39:01
EID:89c8 20774ce0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3155e345
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "misogynist"
DC> (I think it was Judith he said this to) to be a "silly woman"?
JB>
JB> Marilyn was the 'silly woman'. I'm the 'silly female twit'.
DC> Thanks for straightening that out! ....then again, who's the
DC> "silly b***h? Seems like that is Sue Armstrong.
That's "silly bITCh", thank you very much.
--Wolfie
"woof"
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Wrap me up in a glove of gold, and see if I can sleep. - Steeleye Span
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: NO I'M NOT DEAD
|Date: 23 Mar 96 09:41:02
EID:3fdb 20774d20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3155e346
A lone voice in the wilderness, David mournfully howled out "NO I'M NOT
DEAD"
DW> Stop yer fucking bitchin'. I had snow up to my ass for damn near a
DW> week. Wednesday, my one meal consisted of the last 12 crackers with
a
DW> little dollop of peanut butter spread between each pair. I didn't even
DW> have any beer. :)
DW> Seriously, I have a Toyota pick-up. Friday morning, the bed was *full*
DW> of snow. The goddamned Canadians are trying to take over the world.
You didn't like our present? Well, then, you can just take back
your acid rain. :)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Extinction is forever.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Abortion
|Date: 24 Mar 96 11:54:03
EID:5ca7 20785ec0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3155e347
A lone voice in the wilderness, Katherine mournfully howled out "Abortion"
PS> KW> while I had the book open myself. You are hereby sentenced to the
PS> KW> consumption of a pound of good chocolate for your heedless mistake.
PS>As I have a friend who is heir to a chocolate business, this will not
PS>at all be expensive.
KW> Is it a *good chocolate* business, or one of those cheap places like
KW> Hershey, et al? :)
The Hershey's plant here makes pretty decent chocolate, for the
price. Of course, standards _are_ different here. At one time,
M&M's, etc, weren't allowed to be imported because the American
standards for chocolate quality were deemed too low - so they
opened up a plant here that met those standards. (This was even
before Trudeau and his FIRA.)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Maturity comes from the threat of mortality.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Brice Wellington
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: RABIES SHOTS ANYONE?
|Date: 24 Mar 96 10:45:14
EID:0a6b 207855a0
PID: RA 1.11 143
MSGID: 1:2805/5.2 56f3c53a
* In a message originally to J.j. Hitt, Judith Bandsma said:
JB>-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> JB> Date: 03-18-96 12:20 From: Bryan Keller
JB> JH> Can he receive NetMail at that address?
JB>As far as I know, he can. This one's sounding more and more
JB>like Bryce
JB>Wellington every day...only more violent.
Who's been using my name?
--- FMail/386 1.02
* Origin: No Future....No Future....No Future for You.... (1:2805/5.2)
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|From: Louis Farrakhan
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 24 Mar 96 10:47:15
EID:5701 207855e0
PID: RA 1.11 143
MSGID: 1:2805/5.2 56f3c5bc
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6431d1bd
* In a message originally to Mark Craig, Martin Goldberg said:
MG> MC> I see where Farrakhan has been brought before the Knesset, USA.
MG> MC> It appears that the Jews are trying to crucify him. Well, that's
MG> MC> nothing new. He needs to join with the militia, and declare
MG> MC> economic war against the Establishment. United we stand,
MG> MC> divided we fall.
MG>y
MG>Only morons agree with Farrakhan. Are you one?
Just you wait, Hymie. Brother Qadaffi gave me $1 billion. We're going
to ship your asses back to Palestine.
--- FMail/386 1.02
* Origin: No Future....No Future....No Future for You.... (1:2805/5.2)
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|From: Sid Vicious
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: who wrote it
|Date: 24 Mar 96 10:49:16
EID:1d8a 20785620
PID: RA 1.11 143
MSGID: 1:2805/5.2 56f3c61e
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64324e72
MG> SV> Speaking of braindead, where's Rectal?
MG>Haven't seen him for about three weeks. Called his system.
MG>Got a "no carrier".
What about Prayer Warrior? You think that's really Fatherley, or are Diehard
and Critter playing some kind of game?
--- FMail/386 1.02
* Origin: No Future....No Future....No Future for You.... (1:2805/5.2)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: All
|Sub: Time for a chuckle or two
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:16:29
EID:5c58 2078a200
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 17dfe0d6
From: Free Inquiry's - Secular Humanist Discussion Group on behalf of Richard
S. Russell
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 1996 3:51 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list SECHUM-L
Subject: Why E-Mail is like a Penis
From Richard S. Russell (RSRMadison@aol.com):
REASONS WHY E-MAIL IS LIKE A PENIS:
Some folks have it, some don't. Those who have it would be
devastated if it were ever cut off. They think that those who don't have
it are somehow inferior. They think it gives them power. They are wrong.
Those who don't have it may agree that it's a nifty toy, but think it's
not worth the fuss that those who do have it make about it. Still, many
of those who don't have it would like to try it.
It can be up or down. It's more fun when it's up, but it makes it
hard to get any real work done.
In the long-distant past, its only purpose was to transmit
information considered vital to the survival of the species. Some people
still think that's the only thing it should be used for, but most folks
today use it for fun most of the time.
Once you've started playing with it, it's hard to stop. Some people
would just play with it all day if they didn't have work to do.
It provides a way to interact with other people. Some people take
this interaction very seriously, others treat it as a lark. Sometimes it's
hard to tell what kind of person you're dealing with until it's too late.
If you don't apply the appropriate protective measures, it can spread
viruses.
It has no brain of its own. Instead, it uses yours. If you use it
too much, you'll find it becomes more and more difficult to think coherently.
We attach an importance to it that is far greater than its actual
size and influence warrant.
If you're not careful what you do with it, it can get you in big
trouble.
It has its own agenda. Somehow, no matter how good your intentions,
it will warp your behavior. Later you may ask yourself "Why on earth did
I do that?"
It has no conscience and no memory. Left to its own devices, it will
do the same damn dumb things it did before.
... The 10 Commandments: Speedbumps on the highway of free will.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: All
|Sub: A new voice is heard in the land....
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:25:54
EID:9b20 2078a320
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 8a14f2ae
From: errancy@freethought.tamu.edu on behalf of Michael Fisher
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 1996 11:15 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: First-Century Miracle Claims
From Black's Law Dictionary, an excerpt: "Evidence. . .Testimony, writings,
or material objects offered in proof of an alleged fact or proposition."
This I think is a fair definition of "evidence" as it is commonly used.
Blacks also has a useful discussion of "proof". "Proof is the logically
sufficient reason for assenting to the truth of a proposition advanced.
. . Proof is the perfection of evidence; for without evidence there is no
proof. . ."
And finally, since I will be using the term, "hearsay": "A term applied
to that species of testimony given by a witness who relates, not what he
knows personally, but what others have told him, or what he has heard said
by others. . . Evidence not proceeding from the personal knowledge of the
witness, but from the mere repetition
of what he has heard others say. That which does not derive its value
solely from the credit of the witness, but rests mainly on the veracity
and competency of other persons. The very nature of the evidence shows its
weakness . . ."
It is at this simple step that we can uncover the greater part of the problem.
Testimony? None, all the principles are long since dead.
Material objects? Long and hard have multitudes of people searched, yet
there is not a single material object which would lend any veracity to the
tale, so this too is useless.
And let us be clear. The problem is NOT did someone named Jesus live in
Palestine. The question is did he die, and then come back to life--and are
the gospels an accurate record of the events.
The "external" sources are all too vague, far too remote in time and their
information filtered through too many intermediaries reporting personal
belief to be of any real evidential value.
The gospels themselves suffer from the problem of hearsay. The true
authorship of each is unknown, and the fact that the oldest copies
are in Greek, not Aramic, mean that at best, they are a transcription made
by a scribe from the oral testimony of someone else also unknown---of an
event long in the past, even at the time they were written down.
The Christian often likes to argue that we accept the existence of Socrates
based on a mere sliver of evidence, and that is true--but then I am not
denying that someone by the name of Yeshua lived in Palestine. The root
question is the reputed Easter miracle, and whether or not those that may
have witnessed can be shown to be rendering an accurate affidavit.
Eyewitness testimony is fraught with peril. Human perception, even of the
mundane, can be extremely unreliable. Our jurisprudence, and popular notions,
place a great deal of weight upon the eyewitness. Modern psychology tells
us to be a good bit more skeptical.
That there are many copies of the gospels proves only that the early Christians
busied themselves with making copies--and were pretty careful with the ones
they had (and that many lived in fairly dry climates does not hurt). That
in itself tells us nothing of the veracity or accuracy of the original accounts.
Whatever happened, happened to a very small, very exclusive group of people.
These early Christians, just like the Millerite sects, the Mormons, and
the Christian scientists of the 19th century had a deep personal investment
in whatever it was they believed. And far more so than even there remote
descendents in the 19th century, these first century Jews lived in a world
where everyone, pagan and Jew alike, BELIEVED in miracles. This is of great
psychological importance.
Having now set the stage somewhat, I will reprise my original post. Is there
any reason to believe that those there in Palestine in or about 32 A.D.
actually saw what was written down some 40 years later, after much civil
unrest culminating in the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?
What tricks can memory and perception play when there is 40 years and a
will to believe reinforced by a tightly knit community of believers?
____________________________________________________Begin
From "Anomalous Psychology", pp. 149-152, 'Memory systems':
"When the material to be remembered is more complex than digits or
nonsense syllables, repeated reproduction of the material, Bartlett showed,
leads to certain predictable changes, such as simplification, condensation,
increased symmetry, increased familiarity, in general something better than
what it was before. This tendency applied to all kinds of materials, not
just the
reproduction of drawings. Stories are notorious for getting better
in the retelling, better in the sense of being more entertaining, having
a "better" form, not in the sense of being closer to truth. Bartlett's work
has been replicated since by other researchers, and his view of memory as
an active, creative process of remembering prevails among psychologists
today.
" Bartlett also stressed the role of attitudes in remembering. In
remembering, attitudes play the same role as attention and expectation do
in perception: They filter and color the information that is being put together.
The information is not arriving from outside, but is found in long-term
memory storage. Because attitudes reflect a person's values, it is clear
that reconstructed memories
will not give unbiased, objective records of the past, but will be
tinted (and tainted) by the subject's attitudes. As the psychologist Graham
Reed (1972) puts it in writing about anomalies of recall: "what we remember
is to some extent what we think we ought to remember. [p.72]."
MEMORY AND OCCULT PHENOMENA
Faulty Memory
"The general term applied to faulty memory and memory distortions is
paramnesia. .Expectations, sets, attitudes, prejudices, and values
in general color our memories to such an extent that black can quite literally
become white in remembering. . . .There is a human need for ego enhancement,
to feel important, to do important things, or to be part of important events,
even as only an eye witness. This need is so strong that a person may assert
that he or she was a witness to an important or historic event that took
place near where they live even though they may not have known at the time
that the event was happening. A field study was once conducted by a journalist
who fabricated a story about a naked woman, inhabitant of a small town,
who got stuck to a freshly painted toilet seat. The journalist distributed
the story through a newspaper wire service. On visiting the town and interviewing
its citizens about the incident, the journalist found many who claimed to
have witnessed or played part in it. There were refusals to accept the truth
even after the true origin of the story was made public. Similar incidents
are reported in connection with UFOs--that is, witnesses are found to UFOs
that exist only in the rumors spread by the perpetrators of a hoax. NEVERTHELESS,
THE REPORTS OF THE WITNESSES ARE NOT NECESSARILY LIES ORFABRICATION; THEY
MAY ACTUALLY "REMEMBER" THAT THE EVENTS THEY DESCRIBE DID TAKE PLACE." {Emphasis
added-mike}
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
So we can accept the idea that there was a Jesus who was crucified
and buried in a tomb--the details in the bible are probably not accurate
however. Now remember, apparently the only person who appears to have been
a witness to the burial place of Jesus is Mary of Magdala, the "madwoman".
So we have a superstitious middle eastern woman of low social status who
has just lost the one man who has perhaps ever shown her any kindness.
I think we can assume some stress.
And we know that she was none too stable, based on the record we have.
So now a couple of (probably miserable) days later, she goes back in the
morning to the cemetery last seen late in the day for the first time. She
goes to the tomb she thought he had been buried in, and lo, it's empty.
Psychotic break? Maybe not that bad, but:
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>From ANOMALOUS PSYCHOLOGY, by Zuzne and Jones. pp. 133, 135-136:
"Hallucinations may be visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, haptic, kinesthetic,
or organic. Visual hallucinations range from simple light phenomena to the
seeing of life-sized, life-like persons engaged in various activities. Objects
usually appear to be three dimensional and solid. They cast shadows, people
do not walk through walls and furniture, but around them, and the entire
vision may not appear any less detailed, vivid, or substantial than ordinary
perceptions. Sometimes, however, the hallucination may be less substantial
and may appear to be larger or smaller than natural size. Micropsia and
macropsia--the seeing of objects as of being of a size smaller or larger
than their natural size--in hallucinations may have given rise to stories
about diminutive people, such as fairies or leprechauns, or of giants.
"Auditory hallucinations most often include the hearing of voices,
usually single, but sometimes multiple. . . ." (pg. 133)
"Collective Hallucinations"
"The same hallucination may be experienced by two or more persons. If the
event is entirely subjective, as all hallucinations are, how do two ar 200
people manage to coordinate and synchronize their subjective lives? Recall
our discussion of the role of expectation and misperception in the preceding
chapter. It is expectation that plays the coordinating role in collective
hallucination. Although the subject matter of individual hallucinations
has virtually no limits, the topics of collective hallucinations are limited
to
certain categories. ?These categories are determined, first, by
the kinds of ideas that a group of people may get excited about as a group,
for emotional excitement is a prerequisite of collective hallucinations.
The most common causes of emotional excitement in groups are religious,
and indeed, phenomena related to religion are most often the subject of
collective hallucinations. Second, the categories are limited by the fact
that all participants in the
hallucination must be informed beforehand, at least concerning the
broad outlines of the phenomenon that will constitute the collective hallucination.
This may take the form of a publicly announced prophecy, for example, or
someone suddenly looking up and saying, "Lo, in the sky!" or words to that
effect. Things in the sky, or at least overhead, are the most commonly
seen collective
hallucinations: radiant crosses, saints, religious symbols, flying
objects, sometimes all these in combination. Once the general type of
hallucination is established, it is easy to harmonize individual
differences in the accounts. This may take place during the hallucination
or in subsequent conversations.
"Collective hallucinations have always occurred, perhaps more
frequently in the past than now because of the interrelated factors that
more people used to beuneducated, scientific thinking did not exist or had
not yet spread widely enough, and there was a greater readiness to attribute
anything inexplicable to supernatural, occult, paranormal, or divine causes.
. . . " (pp 135-136)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
So M of M goes to the wrong tomb, her beloved rabbi is not there,
and in accordance with her default superstitious mindset and preexisting
mental illness, she has an appropriate hallucination.
She reports this to some combination of the disciples (the gospels
differ), who are also under stress and of the same superstitious mindset--and
the rest as they say is history.
The nicest part about this account is that I do not need to assume
any additional facts beyond what I can find in the bible. I simply apply
modern psychology and subtract supernatural speculation, and I get a simple
consistent picture that is consistent with the bible.
No conspiracies, no deliberate lies, no cover-ups.
To get the entire resurrection account from that simple picture,
all you need to do is add a little time, and as Jesus obviously was not
the earthly Jewish Messiah, with a few "visions", and several surrounding
religions with dying and arising saviour gods, and it was but a short step
to change the failed secular revolution into a new savior god cult,--and
the stories had about 40 years to grow and adapt before they were written
down. And each story was written by a different author to different audience
for different purposes and from slightly divergent accounts--thus the differences
between the gospels.
****************************************.end
So it is seen that that which was claimed to be "so much evidence" is nothing
more than repeated copying of putatively eyewitness accounts recorded by
someone else, which are simply insufficient to bear the weight of proving
a miracle.
Even if the gospels are indeed the redactions of some of actual
eyewitnesses to whatever happened so long ago, there is substantial
reason to suspect that what they repeated so many years later was what they
had convinced themselves had happened. Not what actually happened.
Thus, the evidence is nothing but hearsay, and however often repeated,
however accurate to the original hearsay it is in its repetitions, erroneous
hearsay suffices as proof of nothing. Stack the manuscripts however high
you will, without some means of proving the veracity of the EVENTS, the
written record of the putative eyewitnesses is useless.
And it is that proof that you are missing.
Michael Fisher
USING WHAT IS NOT
Thirty spokes converge at one hub;
What is not there makes the wheel useful.
Clay is shaped to form a vessel;
What is not there makes the vessel useful.
Doors and windows are cut to form a room;
What is not there makes the room useful.
Therfore, take advantage of what is there,
By making use of what is not.
---Lao Tzu--
... God made me an atheist and who am I to question His divine wisdom?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Always with me
|Date: 22 Mar 96 22:11:00
EID:b9fa 2076b160
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 894A437C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Brad Jackson <=-
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson to All <=-
BJ> Hello.
BJ> I like to post in this area (Religious Debates), to show the
BJ> young people not to fear (satan) and his deciples.
GR> Brad,
GR> Mark 16:15-18. Belly up to the bar, I'll pour.
GR> Show the young people not to fear your Bible.
GR> Talk is cheap.
Hey George! I explained to you already why Mark 16:15-18 isn't
scripture, and all I got in reply was your conspicuous silence.
Whatsa matter? Truth got your tongue?
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: woids
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:18:00
EID:35ff 20789a40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 894A437D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
NS>> You did, you just didn't give a total overview. You gave
NS>> one word, and none of the others, from what I remember of
NS>> your post.
MH> It should have been enough. It established that the collective
MH> Hebrew noun "owph" does not mean exactly the same thing as the
MH> word "bird" does in English.
MG> After growing tired of taking your word for this, I purchased a
MG> Hebrew-English dictionary. If you look up the word "bird" it gives
MG> several definitions, all in hebrew. the second one is spelled
MG> "ayin-kopf" Ayin is a silent letter. Following it is the sign for
the
MG> short "o" sound in English. The last letter is the sound for "f".
MG> This dictionary defines the word you describe as "bird".
MG> This, btw, is The New Bantam-Megiddo Hebrew & English Dictionary.
MG> Bantam Books, 1973. page 33. I have no ISBN number as it does not
MG> appear int he volume.
My source is Strong's Hebrew Concordance, and this is what it says:
5775. 'owph, ofe; from H5774; a bird (as covered with feathers, or
rather as covering with wings), often collect.:--bird, that flieth,
flying, fowl.
Note that while "bird" is the most preferable translation, "that
flieth" or "flying" are also offered. And note that it's derived from
H5774. This is what Strong's says about that:
5774. 'uwph, oof; a prim, root; to cover (with wings or obscurity);
hence (as denom. from H5775) to fly; also (by impl. of dimness) to
faint (from the darkness of swooning):--brandish, be (wax) faint, flee
away, fly (away--, X set, shine forth, weary.
Note that the meaning of the root word is much more diverse.
This is all I can say on the matter -- other than that the whole
argument is pretty silly.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Notices
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:30:00
EID:8388 20789bc0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 894A437E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KDM> True; a bad example. I obviously need to do some research on
MH> KDM> Biblical history. But is there anything on people speaking in
MH> KDM> tongues? A missing body is fairly easy to fake; the ability to
MH> KDM> speak any language less so.
MH>
MH> Not that I'm aware of. But so far as the Bible records, the
MH>disciples only exhibited the ability to speak other languages once,
MH>when the Spirit fell upon Peter as he preached the resurrection. You
MH>can't make too much out of the lack of extra-Biblical
MH>substantiation, since it is only said to have happened once.
KDM> Yes, but according to the verse, they were speaking to learned men
of
KDM> many cultures. Why did none of these write of this event?
Actually, it says nothing about "learned men."
Acts 2:4-6
4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in
other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every
nation under heaven.
6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment,
because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Only "a crowd." Now, as for why no one else recorded the event, I don't
know. Perhaps some did, but their records were simply personal
correspondence which -- like virtually all personal correspondence of
ancient times -- wasn't preserved for posterity.
... You can write a good country song if you have an ex to grind.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Guards
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:32:00
EID:6706 20789c00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 894A437F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Now, as for faking the missing body -- in what way could that be
MH>done under the circumstances -- high profile case, guarded tomb,
MH>etc. -- that would explain the disciples' later fervor and
MH>dedication to the point of martyrdom?
KDM> Why would they guard the tomb to begin with?
Seems like we've been all through this before, but the explanation is
simple, and recorded in Matthew's gospel:
Matthew 27:62-66
62 The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and
the Pharisees went to Pilate.
63 "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that
deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.'
64 So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third
day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the
people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will
be worse than the first."
65 "Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as
you know how."
66 So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the
stone and posting the guard.
They posted the guard to prevent exactly the kind of deception you're
suggesting occurred.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: names
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:35:00
EID:245f 20789c60
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-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Why is it that some of the NC's (non-Christians) here seem to think
MH> there's some major wit in changing the names of groups or objects or
MH> deities held dear by people they dislike? I never see Christians
MH> doing this, but from the NC's I see a regular barrage: Gawd, Ghod,
MH> Jaysus, Jeezus, Book of Moron, Jehovah's Witless, Holy Babble, and now
MH> SewAge Crystalweenism.
SA> You haven't visited _Evolution_, have you? The favourite amongst
SA> fundies there is "evilutionists", but other terms crop up from
SA> time to time, like "evologians", etc as well as some even less
SA> flattering terms.
No, I haven't hung around the Evolution echo much. The people there
will try to make a monkey out of you. :)
... Winter weather brings post-nasal drip to city. Phlegm at eleven.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:37:00
EID:d13d 20789ca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 894A4381
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Larry Bevard <=-
LB> And as far as the Crusades or an abortion bomber, sure these people
LB> believed in Jesus and believed they were Christians, but does the
LB> action match what Jesus said for us to do? If not, then their actions
PS> Jesus beat some people in a temple. Jesus said that he'd come to bring
PS> a sword, not peace. Jesus cursed a fig tree, for crying out loud. Do
PS> these look like the actions of a nice guy?
Nope, nor does Christianity teach that Jesus *was* a nice guy. The
"gentle Jesus meek and mild" of sentiment is not the Jesus of the
Bible.
However, Jesus did not kill anyone, nor did he command his followers to
kill anyone. He commanded his followers to preach the gospel, and leave
the judging to Him.
... Hester Prynne got an A for adultery. I barely made a C-minus.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: murders
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:39:00
EID:4156 20789ce0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 894A4382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Norbert Sykes <=-
AS> The only way I could justify it is if the Midianites were routinely
AS> sacrificing children to Molech, and had been doing so for
AS> generations. But of course, there is no way for me to PROVE that, it
AS> never being stated explicitedly in the Bible, although it fits what
AS> we know of some of the cultures in the area.
NS> . . . and I would have to jump in momentarily and say, still respectful
NS> of your opinion Al, that there was still a problem of degree. _IF_
NS> some of the children were being fed to the flames of Moloch or
NS> whatever, it still doesn't justify killing all the children. So even
NS> if you make it conclusive as being understandable from a humanitarian
NS> pov, you still have the ethical problem of excessive murder. I tend
to
NS> think, and this is my opinion, that there was no justification for it.
NS> But then, you already knew that, right?
AS> Actually, this is one of those passages that trouble any thinking
AS> believer. I am offering guesses, but can't even specifically prove
AS> the Molech-sacrifice.
If you believe that the Bible reveals a consistent God, then we can
expect that his order to destroy the Midianites follows the same
pattern as his destruction of the whole world with the flood, or the
destruction of Sodom. Specifically:
Genesis 6:5-8
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and
that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all
the time.
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his
heart was filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from
the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along
the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made
them."
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
Genesis 18:22-26,32
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained
standing before the LORD.
23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the
righteous with the wicked?
24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you
really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty
righteous people in it?
25 Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with
the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from
you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of
Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just
once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For the
sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
In other words, God doesn't resort to total destruction until depravity
is total. Although it doesn't explicitly say this about the Midianites,
if God is consistent, then it must be true of their situation as well.
... If I ran the world, things would be a lot better. Well, for me anyway.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: ass-umption
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:53:00
EID:3d40 20789ea0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 894A4383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> You obviously have a mistaken idea of what a "fact" is. You are saying
AS> the burden of proof is on Michael...all well and good. That by NO MEANS
AS> establishes the NEGATIVE of his statement as a FACT. A fact is
AS> established by evidence. Unless you would like to prove a negative...?
RH> You have repeated this theme several times now and I think you are
RH> being less than honest here. You know as well as anyone that the
RH> null hypothesis is assumed to be true. Thus, we assume there is no
RH> God. That is the default, assumed true. You must offer evidence to
RH> support any other contention.
Are you saying that an assumption is the same as an "established fact?"
For that was Wotan's insistence -- not that the null set is assumed to
be true, but that it is an "established fact."
... Pull the other one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:54:00
EID:f157 20789ec0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 894A4384
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Ahh, and if He chooses to respect OUR choices, even when it comes to
AS> things like death?
RH> And why cannot we repent AFTER death, when we have the information we
RH> needed to make a better choice?
AS> And do what?
AS> If Hitler repents after death, does that help those he killed in
AS> life? Can he show his repentence is more than empty words? Can he do
AS> any good works that will amend what happened?
If someone fights for the other side up until the point you break
through the enemy line and face him down, how much credibility will you
give his claim that "I was on your side all along?"
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Monty Arch
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: elvis lution
|Date: 24 Mar 96 22:50:38
EID:54be 2078b640
MSGID: 1:236/64 2b000696
TID: GE 1.11+
> MH> Because I want whatever I believe to be the truth. If evolution
> MH> really is well-supported by physical evidence, then I'll
> MH> believe it. If it isn't, then questioning it is valid.
> MG> The evidence has been presented here many times. Evolution, like
> MG> gravity, is a fact.
> No, it is not. It is a theory to explain facts, facts that can also be
> explained by special creation. It is the preferred theory for people of
There is physical evidence for evolution: Fossils, comparative zoology,
natural selection. In fact one can see evolution speeded up, selective
breeding and hybridization, mutagenesis of microorganisms, i.e resistant
strains of bacteria to
antibiotics, new strains of cold, flu, and HIV viruses.
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: T.P.R. Systems (219)744-0558 or (219)744-0455 (1:236/64)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 23 Mar 96 17:51:26
EID:c5f4 20778e60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31558621
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314f177e
19 Mar 96 15:22, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> With 7 billion people in the world, I think there are enough
DW>> followers for both of us.
PS> 7 billion? I thought the world only had 6. Sheesh, I guess somebody's
PS> been busy.
The 6 billion figure was from almost a decade ago, Preston. Do you imagine
that everybody waits to have children until the census takers come around?
:)
There hasn't been another count that I'm aware of, but by now the figure
is probably much closer to 7 than 6 billion.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:20:34
EID:c288 20788a80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31558673
19 Mar 96 09:44, Norbert Sykes wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Something even more difficult and miraculous - I'm going to try
DW>> to give Hardly! a brain. I'm not sure if even omnipotence can
DW>> accomplish that, but I am going to put forth the effort.
NS> Are you also going to take care of the drool problem?
I guess I can give him a bib if it becomes necessary.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 23 Mar 96 17:53:08
EID:e128 20778ea0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31558630
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 314f177f
19 Mar 96 15:22, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
NS>> maybe this is that little extra something that Xtians get when
NS>> they get saved? A talking winkie . . . what a concept . . .
DW>> A talking penis takes some of the pleasure out of masturbation,
DW>> doesn't it? What if it wants to cuddle afterwards? :)
PS> What if it wants you to take it to a movie first, or feed it a nice
PS> meal?
Suddenly, the Bobbit procedure doesn't look like an entirely bad thing after
all. :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: christology
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:18:06
EID:b0f2 20788a40
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3155866f
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 314f8d0c
19 Mar 96 23:23, Lee Woofenden wrote to David Worrell:
PS>>> No? The conquistadores, Crusaders, Inquisitors, and other fine
PS>>> Christians would disagree with you. Why are you correct?
LW>> I presume from your question that you object to what those people
LW>> did. So you tell me: why am I--and you--correct?
DW>> Are you physically incapable of directly answering a
DW>> question, Lee? I'm sure there is treatment for that, but you
DW>> have to admit you have a problem before you can seek treatment.
LW> You have a very simplistic view of dialog if you think direct answers
LW> to questions are the only admissible responses.
Why must you attempt to hide your cowardice, Lee? We all know you're a chickenshit
and are incapable of admitting when you have nothing to back up your position,
so why must you keep trying to convince us it isn't so?
LW> I give direct answers where I think they will be useful
I am asking you to give a direct answer to Preston's question now.
DW>> I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that you also
DW>> don't like hurting other human beings. If I was to go around
DW>> killing and torturing in your name and you had the power to stop
DW>> me, would you?
LW> That would depend on the cost. If it meant the spiritual destruction
LW> of the human race, I would not do it, since in that case my crime
LW> would be worse than yours.
You're going to have to provide evidence that there is a "spirit" to be
destroyed before you started blathering off on that tangent, Lee. Answer
my question.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:09:56
EID:878f 20787920
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31558660
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 1444e7f2
22 Mar 96 23:44, Rob Burcham wrote to Jesse Jones:
JJ>> Let me ask your opinion, however, of the larger question:
JJ>> was the former Soviet Union the moral equal of the U.S.A.?
RB> The Soviet citizens are probably every bit as decent as
RB> U.S. citizens. The Soviet government may have become more
RB> corrupt than most.
I'm not sure I can agree with that. The Soviet government just didn't see
a need to *hide* as much of its corruption as do governments that are popularly
elected.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Fear of God 2/2
|Date: 23 Mar 96 17:53:58
EID:610b 20778ea0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31558640
REPLY: 3:711/933 3149e095
15 Mar 96 21:16, Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote to David Worrell:
AS> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What's this "our" shit? Got a mouse in your pocket?
AS> As it is, you appear to have graduated as an exemplary product of
AS> Roman Catholicism, led by the god they serve.
Do you know how to read, Tony? You must not - if you did know how, you would
have noticed that I was not the author of "The Fear of God".
AS> There is a truth.
And what would that be?
AS> You should seek It instead of closing the
AS> door, saying, `there is no light', and resigning yourself to
AS> darkness.
Hmmm... my light meter is showing that I have sufficient light as it is.
Maybe it is you who are in darkness and are simply projecting you lack of
light onto your betters.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:13:36
EID:3509 207879a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31558665
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6422b4ac
22 Mar 96 10:35, J.J. Hitt wrote to Norbert Sykes:
JH> attentions. I'm sure they'd be releaved if people marched on
JH> Nashville or Kansas City for a change and let them deal with the
I'm sure you're relieved to know that the Oilers are coming to Nashville.
Now we get to deal with the traffic tie-ups caused by no-neck football fans
driving to see the game in person. UT football season fucks traffic up at
this end of the state bad enough as it is.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: QUOTES
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:51:24
EID:ba41 20787660
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3155865a
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64139203
21 Mar 96 07:24, J.J. Hitt wrote to Judith Bandsma:
JB>> Connect to your provider, minimize your main screen and
JB>> load mIRC. Click on the little lightning bolt to connect,
JB>> type /join #holysmoke and there you are.
JH> You mean you HAVE to run Windows to do that shit?
Nope - you can always run Linux. Maybe even OS/Snooze.
JH> Scratch one possible excuse for getting an Internet account...
You *will* be assimilated. :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:22:08
EID:c2e6 20788ac0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31558679
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f58ac4b8
22 Mar 96 13:04, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to David Worrell:
DW> DW>>> He can have the whole damn thing. I've already said I'm not
DW> DW>>> eating anything she cooks. :)
DW> KW>> Coward.
DW>> That shit ain't a-gonna work either, sweet-cheeks. :)
DW>> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male
DW>> scum - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't
DW>> phase those of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
KW> David, I would judge you to be 'real true Southern Male Scum'. 'Lord,
KW> but men are dumb'. No doubt you are now going to indulge in a fit of
KW> stomping, growling, and masculine bravado, with the end result of the
KW> women gathering in the kitchen to giggle about you.
Is that so? Hmmm... why is it I feel like doing nothing more than laughing
at your futile attempts to get me to eat that damn pie? :)
KW> Then, someone will decide to handle you with judicious amounts
KW> of patently false (to every one else) flattery, and an appealing
KW> flutter of feminine helplessness, and she'll be the one to slip
KW> you the pie.
Before you waste time trying, flattery won't work either. Feel free to expend
the effort, though.
KW> And if all else fails, freeze 'em.
Once again, won't work. I grew up around this shit, remember? Unlike those
False Southern Scum, I realize when ditzy broads are trying to manipulate
me. :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/1 7 13 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Waco Amnesia
|Date: 23 Mar 96 22:20:18
EID:8560 2077b280
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31558650
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 640c66f4
20 Mar 96 18:19, J.J. Hitt wrote to Terry Liberty-Parker:
JH> /-+--+--+-\
JH> /-+--+--+--+--+--\========================
JH> ###### / Waco or bust! )
JH> /-+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-\
JH> / ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
JH> () ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
JH> () **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
JH> () ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
JH> ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/1 7 13 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:16:38
EID:e1b5 20788a00
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3155866a
TP>> Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have
TP>> been NO criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
DW>> I am hard pressed to feel any amount of pity for people who
DW>> believe they have the right to flagrantly violate the laws of the
DW>> country, state, and county they reside in.
DW>> Fuck 'em.
TL>> If your referring to the murderous govt agents I agree. If your
TL>> referring to the kids, your pathetic.
NS> AH, Mr. Obtuse squeeks out again. You spoke of the Branch Davidians,
NS> clearly meaning the adults and leaders. He won't hear of it. heh.
NS> Are all militianists this cowardly?
From what I've seen, yes. It doesn't take much of a man to blow up a federal
daycare center, after all.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 3615/1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE FAQ /04F
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:03:00
EID:9be8 20783860
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Ryan Shaw <=-
SM> I don't do Internet yet. I only have 2MB of running RAM right now, and
SM> buying it right now is a *bad* idea.
SM> Let its price drop -- and stabilize -- and that will change.
What is RAM going for in your area? It's falling steadily here on the east
coast...even farther in Jax than here. Leo saw an ad last week in the Jax
paper for 72pin RAM (which my machine takes) $89/4MB. Here the average is
$25/MB. We figure by the end of the year I'll be able to put an extra 8
in my machine and still have enough money left for a nice color printer
or a
decent color scanner. (Or...my option...both)
Yell if you want some.
... Sign on fence; SALESMEN WELCOME, DOGFOOD IS EXPENSIVE.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:14:00
EID:3fbb 207839c0
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Al Schroeder <=-
SM> Why didn't Judith, for example, meet Leo Bandsma BEFORE she married
SM> the arch-asshole who beat her??
I've often wondered this myself. Of course, I was only 20 when I married
Jack. At that time Leo would have only been 17 and just a baby (male-wise)
.
And it took that time for me to get MY head straight so that I could
appreciate a man like Leo and not expect that all men were like Jack.
... I only like two kinds of men: foreign and domestic.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Big bird
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:16:30
EID:d9b6 20786a00
MSGID: 1:352/266 31560B8D
KC> I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take what you just said with a
KC> grainof salt -- were you _really_ trolling?
Take it however is comfortable for you. I raised my daughter on Sesame
street. There are other examples of things out of context that I've come
up with, but since that one was taken so seriously I think I hold them back
a bit.
MM> My preference is celebrate the diveristy. One of these things is not
MM> the same... but all are wonderful.
KC> Ack...
Why Ack???
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 271 380 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 352/266 600 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/1 308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 352/266 600 138/380 146 270/101 218/801
|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Colors
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:20:28
EID:f93f 20786a80
MSGID: 1:352/266 31560B8E
DC> Pretty much the same way that you do to a colorblind person. After
DC> all, colors have a "mood". Red is "hot" and/or "violent". The mood
DC> that the color projects to the sighted person can be conveyed to
DC> that of the unsighted one. The blind person will never actually
DC> experience the sight, of course, but the mood that a particular
DC> color "has" can be conveyed to that person.
Hmmmmmmm I could be a stickler for consistency and say that Mood is exactly
what most people try to convey with their religious statements.... such
as God is love. But I'll be nice and not do that. heheheheh.
I agree that colors have psychological effects on sighted people and you
can convey those "feelings" to a blind person. Limited perception still
leaves them with limited realization.
Back to the Elephant story.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 271 380 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 352/266 600 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/1 308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 352/266 600 138/380 146 270/101 218/801
|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Colors
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:57:00
EID:10ce aa0c7e00
MSGID: 1:206/2720 2a0da88c
REPLY: 1:352/266 31548CEC
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> AB> has a certain intensity, but I'm not sure it has a quality of
> AB> ultravioletness the way red light has a quality of redness.
> So, perhaps you prefer a property of light? I don't
> think the argument changes the idea behing the
> statement. There may be things we can not perceive,
> nor examine by modern technology that are still real.
> I remain at the maybe stage.
I would say yes or no depending on what you mean. I see no reason to say
maybe. If you mean that there are things we haven't yet perceived but will
someday, then I can't imagine doubting that; scientific instruments are
ever becoming more sophisticated, and for that matter we simply look in
ever more places. If you mean that there are things which will never, or
worse yet can never, be perceived at all, then I'm inclined to doubt that
anybody really knows what that claim means.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 640/201 754/10 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 206/2720 2711 270/101 218/801
|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: COLORS
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:00:01
EID:10ce aa0c7e01
MSGID: 1:206/2720 2a0da88d
REPLY: 1:352/266 31548CED
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> I am a little skilled at that myself. I can tell
> green blindfolded most of the time. (It feels cool and
> sticky). However there are many people who think it's
> a trick of some kind.
No trick. Different colors obviously absorb different wavelengths of light;
that's the reason for their color. Which wavelengths they absorb also affects
how much heat they absorb from the radiation. I can't do it myself, but
I understand that there's good reason to think some people can tell the
difference between colors on that basis.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2708 2711 2712 2720 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 640/201 754/10 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 206/2720 2711 270/101 218/801
|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 21 Mar 96 05:02:26
EID:bd7f 20752840
MSGID: 3:711/933 3150e442
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 40d24750
Dear John Brawley,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
JB> Please explain: there is not a word about Cain _or_ Adam in Gen 1:11,
Genesis 1:11 tells us that God's law of reproduction stipulates everything
bring forth of its own kind. So unless there is some perversion, Adam as
a
Son of God - the only one at that time, could only bring forth another son
of God. Cain was neither a son of Adam nor a son of God.
JB> and First John 1:12 doesn't even _exist_
My apologies, that should have read I John 3:12.
JB> "Tommy rot?" (*Guffaw*) It looked accurate to me.... No one alive
JB> anywhere on the planet is _not_ a descendant of Eve/Adam, according
to
JB> the cretinist philosophy.
Precisely, according to cretins. But those of faith who read their Bible
know that the majority of people in this world are unrelated to Adam and
therefore have no Kinsman Redeemer.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Bible Verses 1/2
|Date: 21 Mar 96 05:11:01
EID:7f36 20752960
MSGID: 3:711/933 3150e9c9
REPLY: 1:153/792 314771bc
Dear Kelsey Bjarnason,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AG>> Those apparent contradictions are where we lack faith (or
AG>> understanding).
KB> Okay, let's see. These are some notes I have, from various sources.
I can't furnish the answers to all of your objections and do not have time
to seek for the answers. One thing I will say is that you have intermixed
the lineage of Cain with that of Abel (or Seth). You can't do that because
the father of Cain was the Serpent whilst the father of Seth was Adam.
Differences in spelling are not contradictions. And you cannot dispute the
line of Jesus traced through (as I understand) Mary and Joseph as the line
of your parents are probably quite distinct.
KB> **** Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson
KB> was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36
There is no contradiction here, just don't be lazy. Do some reading and
find out what it is saying.
KB> The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
KB> The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6
No problem here and I explain this in one of the teaching sermons available
for FREQ or download. It is `Israel, God's Timepiece' - BB940715.ARJ. Here
is an excerpt:-
First, God had to make them a nation. Genesis 15:13.
But according to Exodus 12:40, "the sojourning of the children of Israel
who dwelt in Egypt, was 430 years". So this prophecy of Genesis 15:13
commenced with the call and Covenant of Genesis 12:1-3 when Abraham
entered Canaan at the age of 75, 430 years before the Law was delivered
on Mount Sinai, on the fiftieth day after the Exodus, as Paul explains
in Galatians 3:17. Thus the prophecy commenced 30 years BEFORE the
AFFLICTION of Abraham's SEED `in a STRANGE LAND'.
Abraham was 75 when he departed from Haran WITHOUT SEED (Genesis 12:4).
He was 86 when Ishmael was born (Genesis 16:15-16), but Ishmael was NOT
the promised SEED (Genesis 17:19), and 100 when Isaac the PROMISED SEED,
was born (Genesis 21:1-5).
Isaac, the appointed SEED of Abraham, whose descendants would see the
complete fulfillment of this prophecy, was a SOJOURNER, and began early
in life to be AFFLICTED by his rival, Ishmael (Genesis 21:8-12, 22). The
period from the giving of the Covenant when Abraham was 75 to the sepa-
ration of Ishmael takes account of this 30 years and commences the four
hundred years Abraham's seed would be afflicted in a strange land - 185
years in Palestine, and 215 years in Egypt.
It is interesting to read Paul in Galatians 4:27-5:1 comparing Ishmael,
the child of the bondwoman, with Isaac, the child of the free, making a
parallel between the Law and Christian faith. Whereas Ishmael persecuted
Isaac, Israel persecuted the Christians. Whereas both Ishmael and Isaac
were firstborn according to the flesh, neither was the Spiritual Seed of
Promise. Today, God separates Christians of the flesh from Christians of
the Spirit and Promise whom they persecute.
So the prophecy of Israel's RELEASE to return to the Land was an exact
date, Exodus 12:40, 41, 51. (So the day of the Exodus, and the Promise
to Abraham, and the Crucifixion were the same. And the ending of the
Gentile Dispensation should also be the same day).
The sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was 430
years. As Paul explains in Galatians 3:17, these 430 years are to be
computed from the call of Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3. The statement in
Genesis 15:13 is explained and qualified by the words in verse 16. The
entire period of Israel's wanderings was to be four centuries, but when
the passage speaks specifically of their sojourn in Egypt it said: `In
the fourth generation they shall come hither again'. This was accurately
fulfilled, as Moses, whose mother was a daughter of Levi (Exodus 2;1),
was fourth in descent from Jacob (Levi, Kohath, Amram, Moses).
Because of UNBELIEF, God caused the children of Israel to wander in the
wilderness for 40 years until the generation from twenty-years old and
upward perished ... `Each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities,
even forty years, and ye shall know My breach of Promise' (Numbers
13:25; 14:26-34; Hebrews 3:8-19).
KB> God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
Not is this verse He doesn't. God forbids murder.
Don't you think your hubris just a trifle bold? It certainly demonstrates
a lack of intelligent thought.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 23 Mar 96 23:30:30
EID:63b9 2077bbc0
MSGID: 3:711/933 31548c75
REPLY: 1:116/19 02DDBBD2
Dear Al Schroeder,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> I was making fun of your typo, Anthony. Obviously you missed the
AS> point.
Yes, I'm solly about that.
AS> Anthony, just about everyone in that part of the world are part of
AS> the Semitic peoples, both Arab and Hebrew.
Yes, all EXCEPT the Jews, the vast majority of whom are Gentile stock with
not one drop of Semitic blood.
AS> However, historically to be "anti-Semitic" is to discriminate
AS> between the people who call themselves Jewish.
But this is not honest. The vast majority of those who call themselves `Jews'
are NON-Semitic and ANIT-Semitic.
AS> I have a cousin who converted to Judaism.
That won't work today.
AS> If someone said a disparaging remark to her about her Judaism, it
AS> would be an "anti-Semitic" remark, despite the fact that my cousins
AS> is mainly Welsh and English by descent.
Well that is an intentional perversion of language which the false or self-styled
Jews employ.
AS> Quite frankly, Anthony, I see the Israelis as much victims these
AS> days, especially with the wave of bombings,
You know, they stole that land from the Hebrew (Semitic) Israelite and Arab
residents (also Semitic). Have you ever bothered to discover what happened
to their victims? Also, we read that those who live by the sword die by
the
sword. Modern Israel was founded on terrorism and murder and certainly
not
by faith as was Israel of old.
AS> I do not attach much importance to bloodline in this matter.
But God does. And that's all that matters.
AS> Jesus said God could make the very stones into sons of Abraham if He
AS> chose.
And He has. Christians are Abraham's seed by the baptism of the Holy Ghost
(or new birth). But Israel is forsaken until the times of the Gentiles
be come in at which time God will deal with 12,000 from each tribe. The
whole
basis of the Bible is _blood_. The life is in the blood.
AS> I only see bias and delusion and hate for your brother.
That's because you have not taken what I have written back to God's Word.
AS> Jesus believed the Jews of His time were His brothers, and the
AS> Samaritans His neighbor.
But he also said those who were Spiritually sons of Abraham would receive
Him and not seek to kill Him. read John 8.
AS> But I only see divisiveness and a foolish misuse of God's word to
AS> justify your own pet theories and prejudice, on your part.
That's because you lack the Spirit.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Heavenly Father
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:26:42
EID:6efa 20789b40
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155a32a
Dear Brother Brad Jackson,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
BJ> Heb 13:5 (KJV) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be
BJ> content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never
BJ> leave thee, nor forsake thee.
That's a great scripture.
BJ> Hold true to God's word Anthony.
By His grace I shall. I'm not here to dispute but to hunt God's elect. Those
who are His sheep will receive His Word ... automatically. It's
just that we live in the the harvest time so there can be no enormous growth
in the true Church, but a ripening of the fruit that is now on
the Tree to bring it to maturity for the manifestation of the Sons of
God and the translation.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:35:29
EID:4ac5 20789c60
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155a60e
REPLY: 1:252/107 3149c2e9
Dear Selena,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
SK> Hey all! Is anyone familiar with the predictions of M. Nostradamus?
He certainly made a great many of predictions however Jesus Christ promised
He would send us a prophet in these last days. ..just before the end of
the Gentile dispensation (Matthew 17:11; Malachi 4:5-6; Revelation 10:7,
etc.), and after this, two prophets to Israel (Zechariah 4; Revelation 11).
SK> I have recently read that the world is supposed to end by nuclear war
SK> at the end of the year 1999. This seems to coincide with the bible,
SK> doesn't it? I am not very familiar with the bible.
I believe the Gentile dispensation will end before that time. After the
end of the Gentile dispensation, God will turn to Israel to finish the final
of Daniel's weeks of years. After the first three and a half years Rome
will break her covenant and force the mark of the Beast.The people will
take her
doctrine or do her will or take the consequences. The last half of the week
will conclude with Armageddon which will destroy all life on earth.
SK> There are a few things that Nostradamus predicted that have already
SK> come true, so I guess the end is inevitable? What do you think?
Look for God's prophet.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: The Lies of the UN-Righteous
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:46:38
EID:8dcd 20789dc0
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155a7b8
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63d765a5
Dear Martin Goldberg,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
MG> How does anyone get as stupid as you seem to be?
With great patience and plenty of practice I fear. I rather suspect we may
be discussing two different questions (?) and if that is so then it may
be
my stupidity as you seem to think. So let's talk about carbon dating (of
which I do not know very much at all).
MG> To claim that all 14C dating is problematic for this reason is
MG> ignorant.
You may be right here. What I was saying is that the technique has been
made to make some incredibly wrong estimates.
MG> Then your comment about the "eminent historians of Jewry"
I think this is where I must have been responding to a question unrelated
to the subject of your comments. My apologies.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ma teresa
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:51:24
EID:94cc 20789e60
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155a803
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63d767ee
Dear Martin Goldberg,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AG>> My Brother, Christians, all Christians are perfect. It's just
But of course! This is God's requirement and He made a way. You just failed
to notice it in the Bible and have never met a Christian.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 24 Mar 96 19:53:12
EID:db18 20789ea0
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155ac8a
REPLY: 1:123/319 56e9e27e
Dear Mark Craig,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
MC> Israel is now a State.
Indeed it is, however, the Kingdom has not yet been restored to Israel.
That is the Millenniun, when the Greater Son of David is on the Throne,
and Israel is a nation, and the _only_ nation.
MC> The next event to occur is the end of the world, not the millenium --
Actually, it's neither!
But you have missed one vital step in the equation. You missed the Message
of the prophet Jesus promised would restore the apostolic faith (Matthew
17
:11; Malachi 4:5-6), finish the mystery of God (Revelation 10:7; Acts 3:19-
21; I Corinthians 13:10). Without a prophet there can be NO end.
The next thing to occur is the end of the Gentile dispensation. A massive
earthquake will sink Los Angeles and 1100x4-500 miles of California, etc.,
Then the manifestation of the Sons of God, and resurrection of the Church
Age saints, followed by the translation of the living saints to the Wedding
Supper of the Lamb. Then two prophets will preach to Israel and at the
end
of Daniel's Seventieth week when the atomic will have destroyed all life
on earth, the glorified Jesus Christ will step out on the ashes of the
wicked with the glorified saints of all ages for the Millennium (Malachi
4:1-3 and
Matthew 3:12; Revelation 20:5; Isaiah 13:9, etc.,).
My Brother, we have to pass through _all_ of the stages God has established
in His Word. And you must receive the Message of the prophet God has sent
us. And that Message is Christ in WORD Form. The penalty for rejecting
or failing to receive that Message is found in Malachi 4:6; Acts 3:23;
Revel-
ation 22:18-19.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: ma teresa
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:12:29
EID:aef7 2078a180
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155addb
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2614029a
Dear Sean McCullough,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
SM> All who profess to be Christians ARE Christians, Anthony. The "Not
SM> True Christian" dodge doesn't work on us.
Really? Then Adolf Hitler was a Christian, and so were the Popes of Rome.
SM> ALL who live as human beings are imperfect, regardless of their
SM> religion.
Those who have a religion (other than being a good scout (James 1:27).
Don't try to stand in the presence with a covering of religion. Better
you receive Christ and live as Christ.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: satan runs
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:18:08
EID:a404 2078a240
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155aec9
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 14c59311
Dear Steve Rose,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
SR> Brad...are you some sort of run-away 'test subject' for an unknown
SR> medication?
I believe Brad has taken Dr. Simon Peter's prescription: `Repent and be
baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost which is the new birth
for the Promise is to you (Jews) and to your children (Jews), to those
who are afar off (Gentiles) even as many as the Lord our God shall ever
call (both Jew and Gentile).
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:23:35
EID:c810 2078a2e0
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155b28d
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0009f9f9
Dear Brother Larry Bevard,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
LB> Besides that, both the books of Wisdom and Ecclus. are Not Biblical
LB> books. They are included in the Catholic bible but even the catholic
LB> Church realizes that they are not on the same plane as the rest of
LB> the books of the OT.
There are a number of additional books in the Roman Catholic versions of
the Bible. Some of them have make absolutely absurd claims contrary to
the Bible.
LB> In the New Testement, Adam bears the brunt of the blame for bringing
LB> Sin and Death into the world.
No Brother, that is a misunderstanding. What Adam did was to `save' his
wife by joining her across the time line and the Life line when she should
have been burnt as says God's Word which is for ever settled in heaven.
In
this way death came upon mankind and as man was the god of this world upon
all creation because all were under Adam when he forfeited his dominion
to Satan. You have read and misunderstood Romans 5:17.
Adam could not sin. He was the son of God and no man born of God can commit
sin (I John 3:12; 5:18).
LB> Eve's sin was that she allowed herself to be decieved.
`Sin' is unbelief in the revealed Word of God (period). It is the opposite
of faith. The elected (or sons and daughters of God) cannot be deceived
on the Word of God. Eve was not the spoken Word of God but a byproduct of
Adam who was. (Can you see the type of Christ and His Bride?) Eve was not
God's original creation, but a by-product of Adam, made up of his flesh
and bone.
The true Church is a byproduct of Christ, made up of the Holy Spirit, taken
from His side after He fell asleep on Calvary as Adam fell asleep in Eden.
Eve was deceived. She was the only way Satan could inject himself into
the human race.
Kind regards, and God bless ...
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Joseph Kosturko
|Sub: Faith
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:38:12
EID:b672 2078a4c0
MSGID: 3:711/933 3155b2ea
REPLY: 1:3621/22 314d44fd
Dear Brother Joseph Kosturko,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
JK> IF I AM WRONG, THEN THE WORLD WILL BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE IF OTHERS
JK> WOULD START MAKING THE SAME 'MISTAKE!'
Amen!
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 23 Mar 96 20:13:00
EID:d2e1 2077a1a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FA5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-22-96 02:00, Sue Alexander got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> even twitted himself.
SA> He has to have something to read that he can't argue too much
DC> he's arguing with himself! Happens most of the time when he
DC> comes up with one of his infamous analogies...
SA> I usually do not read his ranting posts enough that I would have
SA> noticed this. However, it does not surprise me at all, especially
SA> after some of the stunts I have seen him pulling here recently.
To his defense, he doesn't seem to rave. I prefer to use that
verb when describing the likes of Staal or Grigor. However, he
does tend to ramble and get lost in his point/counter-point to
where it's rather difficult to tell what he really meant to say.
SA> ... A drool a day keeps Mikey away...
Stolen!
... "Money is truthful. If a man speaks of his honor, make him pay cash."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 23 Mar 96 20:17:00
EID:383b 2077a220
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FA6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-22-96 13:14, Mark Barnett got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>Try: "Bats are birds."
MB> What do you mean?
I see you haven't bothered to actually read the bible, other
than the verses you are fed.
The bible states that bats are birds.
DC>Score: Martin, 2 Barnett, zip.
MB> Oh no I've be Archived.....aie.......
No you haven't. I only added to the total. As of yet, you have
yet to write anything worth printing, let alone archiving.
... "Oh, Bother!", cried Pooh. "Piglet, I have only 3 nails! Cross,'em!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 23 Mar 96 20:19:00
EID:383b 2077a260
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FA7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-22-96 13:18, Mark Barnett got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> MB> The Son's of Noah that rebeled against god later, and founded the
DC> MB> other civilations in the area.
DC>Please provide evidence that these other civilizations even
DC>knew about your "god".
MB> Now that is a intersting Question I'm not sure how I would do that but
MB> I will try.
Please start with your next post. You now have been archived.
DC>While you're at it, explain why many of their flood stories
DC>predate your flood story and that their civilizations were
DC>extant on the dates prior _and_ after your little flood.
DC>Can you say, "plagiarism"?
MB> Not very well I'm from Arkansas. But I will see what I can do.
Just remember, the quest is not to learn how to pronounce "plagiarism"
but to provide your claimed evidence of the flood.
... 10th Rule of Creationism -- Ignored evidence will go way...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 23 Mar 96 20:26:00
EID:383b 2077a340
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FA8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-22-96 13:22, Mark Barnett got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>And, if you are, Thor will be totally pissed at you, won't he. Looks
DC>like you better worship him too, or your ass is grass.
MB> Well he is just going to have to be Pissed isn't he. Because I am not
MB> going to worship a "God" that I do not Belive in.
Now, that's a pity, as you are worshipping the wrong god. After
all, Thor is far more powerful than your make-believe god.
... I'm going to hell? Well, Haw-ley-lew-yah and pass the marshmallows!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 23 Mar 96 20:41:00
EID:2514 2077a520
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FA9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-21-96 05:01, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> identifications. We know it was around fairly early...a fragment
AS> dated 125 AD, for instance. The gospel has details which seem to be
DC> Let's see.... 125-33=92 Add about 24 yrs = 116. Seems like that
DC> fragment was penned by a very rather old man, Al.
AS> I didn't say the fragment was penned by him personally. It was a
AS> copy, just a copy that indicates it was around at a fairly young
Ok, so maybe it's a copy... A copy of what? Without a predating
version, there is no way to justify that it is a copy of anything.
AS> time...just like we don't have any of the plays of Shakespeare from
AS> Will's own hand, but we do have plenty of early folios that work to
I thought that the copies of the originals are what led scholars
to think that at least some of the plays attributed to Willy were
not penned by him...
AS> Well, James and John (the sons of Zebedee) are the only two
AS> disciples not mentioned by name in the Gospel of John who are
Wait a minute there.... You have 2 people, not mentioned by
name, yet you know there names?
AS> mentioned prominately in other gospels. The silence is significant,
I
AS> think. It's a literary deduction, but a permissable one, surely.
And, just why didn't the author know all of the desciples names? It
generally follows that the most mentioned are the most siginficant.
Yet, you have 2 people, unmentioned, and they are given credit
for the whole thing?
DC> However, Al, the records of Pilate are extant and do not reflect
DC> in any way the bible story of the xification.
AS> WHAT???????????????????????????????
AS> WHERE????
AS> Seriously Dan, can you direct me to a reference? As far as I know,
AS> other than the mention in Josephus and the NT, and the coins found
Try _Decptions and Myths of the Bible_, by Lloyd M. Graham ISBN
0-8065-1124-9, p. 343. Rabbi Wise, in the 19th Century searched
those very archives and found nothing to evidence that the
supposed trial ever too place.
AS> contemporary accouts of Pilate. Are you saying we have the actual
AS> REPORTS that Pilate wrote concerning his administration of Palestine?
If I'm reading it correctly, the court records reflect absolutely
nothing about the alledged trial.
AS> don't mention that, and if they were available, I would think they
AS> would mention those records.
You now have that reference...
... "Life has been better since I excepted Jesus" - jonny vee
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORM
|Date: 23 Mar 96 20:49:00
EID:9b65 2077a620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FAA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-21-96 02:07, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Not a bad choice, but my preference would seriously be Goldie Hawn.
AS> You and Kurt Russell, who is living with her, I believe.
They did a great movie in _Overboard!_
DC> Then you say To: Anthony Grigor-scott
AS> No, the SEMITIC people are. I was making fun of your typo, Anthony.
DC> Best be careful, Al, you and Lynda are starting to sound like
DC> dyed-in-the-wool atheists!
AS> Ah, you're just "sucking up" to us theists (well, Lynda has been
Funny, Mikey doens't seem to hold me in the same regard... ;)
AS> accused so often of "sucking up" to atheists that I think she will get
AS> a kick out of the oppostie reaction.)...
Well, a good chuckle is better than a kick in the groin, I always
say.
AS> reserve it for those who REALLY deserves it. Like Grigor-Scott.
He deserves the kick in the groin!
... So long, and thanks for all the fish!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 23 Mar 96 20:53:00
EID:a968 2077a6a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FAB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-22-96 07:09, Fredric Rice got back to David Worrell
MH> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
MH> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David
MH> Worrell.
dw> I'm in good company.
FR> It's a damn chame I wasn't listed first.
Eat your heart out, Fredric!
BTW, what's a "chame"?
Sincerely yours,
God Dan
... A drool a day keeps Mikey away...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 23 Mar 96 20:55:00
EID:a968 2077a6e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FAC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-22-96 07:14, Fredric Rice got back to John Passaniti
FR> pretend he's some how special over all the other fundies and that it's
FR> a punishment for us all if he backs up and leaves. Few of us would
FR> notice.
Speak for yourself, Fredric. I, for one, would miss the anal-ogist...
... A drool a day keeps Mikey away...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FRIED ICE CREAM
|Date: 23 Mar 96 21:05:00
EID:b842 2077a8a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FAD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-21-96 05:08, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> first time. However, he tried it again and it came out, and
DC> I quote, "Very good!"
AS> Barb experiments a lot. Most of the time they are hits, but there are
AS> a few misses, too. I wish I had gotten my father's recipe for hash
AS> browns before he died.
Me too... I come close but never have been able to get them to
come out "right". As much as recipes are a science, the technique
in making them _IS_ and art!
AS> He would cook them all afternoon in an iron
AS> skillet,
Good choice of weapons, as my best meals are made in one!
AS> things mixed in. Pop would make them once or twice a month, and it was
AS> one of those things I could have three or four helpings on.
Best I can say is keep on trying and making minor variations. It
may be in the spices, or it may be in the type of potatoes that
you use. It may be also on the shortening or the temperature
you cook it at.
Then, too, it may just be how you remember how he made them
for _you_. (Trust me in this, as my cousins claim I make my
raisin bread at as well as my Dad, but I personally don't think
so. His was and always will be better than my best attempt
at his forte, even if I have matched or even exceeded it.)
... The best baker and teacher I've known: Dad!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LAST RITES
|Date: 23 Mar 96 21:19:00
EID:2431 2077aa60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FAE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-21-96 05:05, Al Schroeder got back to Marilyn Burge
AS> implicitedly DYING in a state of mortal sin...i.e., with no
AS> chance to confess.
MB> That's what the Last Rites are for, Al, so a person can get
MB> absolved of those sins that they committed since their last
AS> Hmmm. But don't they give that AS they are dying? Not after they are
AS> dead. A suicide would already be dead, if they succeeded in suicide.
That maybe true, but the Catholic Church views that a bit differently:
It gives absolution retroactively. Extreme Unction used to be
used only for the living, but it has been made available to those
that are already dead. And, as I understand it, suicide is now
treated as a mental problem, allowing them to be given the
sacrament.
NOt sure when the rules changed, but it has been available for
quite sometime. After the all, the "Hir goes to hell because
hir killed hirself" was not exactly comforting to the family
of the deceased.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MESSAGE TO ASMODEUS
|Date: 23 Mar 96 21:28:00
EID:f1fe 2077ab80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FAF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-21-96 04:00, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Now...who can we pit that Walter Bartoo against?
DC> How about Michael Hardy? They can each put each other on their
DC> twit lists and complain to all about a lack of evidence that
AS> And if they put each other on their twit lists, how would we decide
AS> who won?
That's easy! We count the posts not to but about the other twit.
The one with the most messages about the other twit wins. A
modification of the 10 point must system could rate style in
their verbiage against the other.
AS> We need someone who is agressively adamant against even the
In the above scenario, we get the final combatants into a
no-twit, winner takes all. We put it on P[l]ay-For-Dough and
rake in some big box offices. With luck, it will last longer
that the last Tyson fight and at maybe have participants with
a moral character surpassing that cretin, which won't take much...
... "Parents, Holy Smoke is not only entertaining, but educational, too!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 23 Mar 96 21:31:00
EID:5dcc 2077abe0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-21-96 09:05, Al Schroeder got back to Rob Burcham
RB> What'd you think of my work in Cuckoo's Nest?
AS> Y'know, I had forgotten both DeVito and Christopher Lloyd were in
AS> that, years before TAXI...I mainly remembered Jack Nicholson.
I didn't know that... Looks like I'll have to get a copy of it
and do a re-view. As forwhat I remember the most was Nurse
"Rat-shit" and the BIG! Indian.
... "Rosebud" is Orson Wells
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: YOU BORE ME
|Date: 23 Mar 96 21:43:00
EID:6315 2077ad60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-21-96 05:00, Al Schroeder got back to Martin Goldberg
MG> dead Grandfather up walking around again, he would believe him.
AS> differently, I would at least want to have the body exhumed. (I.E.,
AS> check the tomb...as some other people did, some two thousand years
As Judea was under Roman rule at the time, do you have a writ
that shows that the tomb was exhumed? Better yet, do you have
even an exact location for the tomb in question?
BTW, I still have 3 or 4 messages to get back to you on, but
I've been trying to "pace" them, as you are as prolific and
then some as a responder as I am.
Good luck on the race for Numero Uno Poster this year.
Carbon Copies:
Every one on Earth
(Put's me some 5+ Billion ahead!)
... "Bother," said Pooh, as the police pried up his floorboards.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 23 Mar 96 21:46:00
EID:627f 2077adc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 04:32, Mark Craig got back to All
MC> I'm beginning to believe that Pat Robertson and his Christian
MC> Coalition, are a Zionist front organization.
OK, Captain Fuck, fuck off. And, I do mean that sincerely,
whether you are the original Cpt Fuck or not.
... Cthulhu loves you...on a Ritz cracker.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 24 Mar 96 11:44:00
EID:ec85 20785d80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 18:35, Sean Mccullough got back to Al Schroeder
SM> As Walter Brennan used to say, "I gotta million of 'em!", all rightly
SM> mine to use for just such a purpose as this one.
He never used to say that, Mr. MYXLTPIK!
... "I've gotta million of them!" -- Jimmy Durante
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Creator God
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:03:00
EID:c72d 20786060
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 07:55, Jesse Jones got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> JG> percieve that God created hell, And a good god would not create
DC> JG> a bad place.
DC>"I, the Lord created evil. I the Lord do all these things."
JJ> Isa 45:7-9 "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and
JJ> create woe; I the LORD do all these things. (8) Shower, O heavens,
Thank you for the larger quote than I had in my archieves, Jesse,
as well as supporting my position...
... "Damn you! Damn you all to hell!" screamed Pooh as the PMS hit.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: Another FAQ moment
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:13:00
EID:3e8f 207861a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-19-96 22:43, Rob Burcham got back to Al Schroeder
RB> Apropos of nothing in particular: I sometimes see religion as the
RB> mother of all chain letters. It promises great things but if you
RB> break the chain, horrible misfortune will fall upon you. Most people
RB> won't risk breaking the chain.
Please send 5 copies of this to various people. If you don't
you will break the chain and I'll have to burn a puppy for your
salvation...
See, it works!
... "Religion: The original Chain Letter." Bob Burcham
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:17:00
EID:7f25 20786220
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 15:07, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
DR> cannot afford all of the equipment I'll need, if I buy a boat.
DR> Any woman will do--- I've asked several already.
DC> With enough women, why do you need extra equipment?
MB> I'm still trying to figure out how a vegetarian will survive
MB> for all those months at sea.
Perhaps fish isn't considered meat? I know of vegans that eat
eggs and shellfish too.
MB> his vessel as a place to store his "fertilizer" and then
MB> plant a garden in it, as that one fundy suggested Noah
MB> probably did.
That, or let it grow really thick and make toffu out of it..
... Not a real tagline, but an incredible broiled tofu substitute.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: one more time
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:34:00
EID:4be3 20786440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 18:02, Sean Mccullough got back to Dan Ceppa
> MG> or your named misspelled.
> I thought about doing that too, but it didn't feel right.
SM> What's immoral about it??
Hey, I've got my reputation as a god to live up to, plus the
fact that it's a pain in the rump to set up a new alias....
I think I need to set myself up as a point! }:-)
SM> Hardly has NO right to protect himself from our objections while
SM> continuing to spam the spam which is the CAUSE of said objections.
Well, he has that right, and that ability to do just that. What
he is lacking is the integrity to acually face issues head on. His
approach works for him only to the depth that he can force his
head into the sand. As it is, the Sahara is far too shallow.
> have to type in my "From" every time and do a Glodberg! ;)
SM> Large, random hex numbers will also do quite nicely.
I'll remember that, if I get a point up and running.. :)
SM> ! Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
What software do you use for yours? Not that I want to set up a
bunch of aliases or anything like that..... }:-)
... "It is sad, because planets like this one are hard to find." G Glunz
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wan
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:42:00
EID:0acd 20786540
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-22-96 14:42, Sue Armstrong got back to Kenneth Mcabee
FR> His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the
FR> brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against
FR> the Jewish poison.
KM> The scourge was not seized, it was made. He did not drive the men out
KM> of the temple with it, but rather the animals.
I'm curious as to why vipers and adders where in the temple in
the first place... Kenny never addresses that point.
SA> So Jesus hated animals? Definitely NOT my kind of guy.
Nah, he doesn't hate them, unless they are not sheeple...
SA> during the "blessing of the animals" that some churches run each
SA> year, the animals are kept OUTside, and aren't allowed within the
SA> church itself.
"Unclean, I say! Unclean!" "Now, that one over there would go
well with a mint jelly..."
... What a friend we have in cheeses. The Christian Dairymen.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:47:00
EID:93be 207865e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FB9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 21:51, Kevin D. Mckenzie got back to David Worrell
KDM> DAVID WORRELL spoke thusly to TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER:
DW>Remember My Lai, dipshit?
KDM> only the officer was found guilty; the non-coms and enlisted were not.
KDM> I just couldn't remember a name to look up in the encylopedia.
William Calley should also get you to the same search area.
... Suppose they gave a war, and nobody came......
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose On
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:18:00
EID:830f 20788240
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FBA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-22-96 19:01, Rick Mcfarlane got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> is mandated to makescouting available to all boys who meet entrance
MB> age requirements irrespective of race, religion, or ethnic origin.
RM> Looks to me like this court has just decided that atheism is a
RM> religion.
DC> No more so than the Constitution is a document that requires a
DC> religion to be a citizen of this country.
RM> According to Marilyn's note, it had nothing to do with your
RM> constitution - the judge based his decision on the part of the BSA
RM> charter which says that anyone is accepted, regardless of their
RM> religion, clearly classing atheism as a religion.
Please put on your required reading list the US Constitution and
the Bill of Rights. Then, get a good dictionary and find out
that atheism is not a religion. Further, the Constitution prohibits
the gvt from supporting, let alone founding, a religion of any stripe.
As the BSA is not classified as a religion, its banning of atheists
is contrary to the document that you need to read.
RM> In the USA, can the B'nai Brith legally exclude Moslems from
RM> membership?
To be a B'nai, or a xian for that matter, you have to believe
in the religion. It is not a question of excluding a Moslem
from the B'nai group. After all, it is a religion, not an
employer in that sense of exclusion.
And, why do you ask? Are you a Moslem that wants to be a B'nai
and you can't be? Try believing in the B'nai and maybe they'll
let you join.
However, you will note that religions have a nasty habit of
excluding everyone that doesn't buy into that particular
sect's bullshit. That's why they call themselves, and their selves
alon, the "One, True Religion.
... I'm not interested in your dopey religious cult.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Claims of deity construc
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:26:00
EID:a3a5 20788340
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FBB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 15:26, Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> alone got past the title page....
MG> ture, taken from context passges tht try and make Hawking look like
a
MG> deist.
MG> It would make Billy Wolff proud.
"Atheists to the right of us,
Agnostics to the left of us.
Boldly rode the 600,
into the Meat Grinder"
And, there in that background, far, FAR in the backround, will
be Billy, urging them on to the last.
... "Bother," said Capt. Pooh, as antimatter containment was lost.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jon Vandenberg
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:37:00
EID:5edb 207884a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FBC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 20:15, Jon Vandenberg got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> . . . After all, access to BBS is not a right but a priviledge.
JV> Correct.
Funny that you should jump in here just this moment...
DC> However, if you have not violated those rules in a particular area,
DC> then his conscience and his integrity are both warped.
JV> perhaps. . .
That remains to be seen. As it is, you seem to be acting on
a visceral level on your decision.
JV> of years. (I think Glen has posted a little in this area) He is the
JV> only SysOp in our net that has allowed george ongoing BBS access in
JV> recent years.
So, you will cut him off perforce because you don't happen to
like George?
JV> echo, or any other one. He is largely ignored in any of our local
JV> echos, except when he catches someone new off guard. Even newbies catch
JV> on to him real quick.
That's a local issue and doens't concern the case at hand. Each
and every Echo or Local Message base has its set of rules.
DC> If it was because of this Echo solely, it's outright censorship.
JV> "if you knew georgie, like I know georgie. . ."
Again, that's your problem. Handle it locally the way that you see
fit, along the guidelines that you have posted in an equitable
manner.
JV> Enjoy him Dan. . . he fits in here. Kinda anyways. . . ;-)
JV> ! Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
With a Origin Line such as that, everthing you have posted to
me is suspect. Thank your good buddy, Jimmy Staaled for having
given your BBS that reputation. Must make your feel so proud
to have him as a contributing member in your group.
... Pray for Jim Staal (see Psalm 137:9)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:46:00
EID:c8a4 207885c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894B0FBD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-20-96 21:40, Rob Burcham got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> RB> Wouldn't that be a 'twitorectomy' and require the services
DC> go to the doctor to take care of a Saladbaratoma...
RB> Then, Bustilloz will have to do something about her cattyracts.
Right after Al get past his comicsitis attack..
... Feel free to try our primordial soup and salad bar-Bioepsis Restuarant
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: CDA Court Challenge: Day #2
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:38:37
EID:8b9e 207884c0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 155c97d7
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Declan McCullagh (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty parker.
Original dated: Mar 24 '96, 16:12
From: Declan McCullagh
The CDA Challenge, Day #2
By Declan McCullagh / declan@well.com / Redistribute freely
March 22, 1996
PHILADELPHIA -- At 2:21 pm today, one of the judges hearing our
challenge to the Communications Decency Act finally "got it."
"The folks in Luxembourg don't give a damn what our laws are. So my
son, who's 10, can still view 'Sexy European Girls?'" asked U.S.
District Court Judge Stewart Dalzell.
"That's correct," replied Scott Bradner of Harvard University, who
took the stand today to describe net.technology. Bradner told me
afterwards he thought Friday's hearing went well -- he had come to
Philadelphia to testify because this "is such an important issue."
Judge Dalzell's remark hints that he, at least, is starting to
understand the Internet -- and the consequences of the court's
eventual ruling. This comes not a picosecond too soon for those
of us who have been fidgeting in our seats, wincing as Department
of Justice attorneys misuse technical terms and hoping the judges
can sort through the cyberconfusion in just six days of hearings.
Dalzell has a keen sense of humor and seems sympathetic to our
arguments. In fact, I'd guess he's been doing some out-of-court
web-surfing himself. In an _astounding_ question at the end of the
day, he asked Bradner: "Isn't it true that the exponential and
incredible growth of the Internet came about because the government
kept their hands off of it?"
Bradner gladly agreed. (What else would he say?)
The other two judges aren't quite as reflective. In an incomprehensible
decision last month, Judge Ronald Buckwalter granted us only a _partial_
restraining order preventing the Feds from enforcing the CDA.
Now he's justifying his original mistake by taking a critical stance
during this hearing -- that is, when he's not dozing. During one of
his more alert moments, Buckwalter asked if labeling all online
content is possible: "Your problems are technical and financial? If
thse problems are solved and we agree on the definition of indecent,
is it possible?" "Yes, it is," our witness replied. Buckwalter also
asked earlier: "What do you mean by saying the Internet is a very
democratic medium? Isn't there someone who steers discussion?" As
proof, he held up a copy of a recent Atlantic magazine article that
claimed the most popular USENET newsgroups are moderated and are
therefore "quasi-authoritarian."
I suggested to our attorney, Chris Hansen from the ACLU, that he
clarify what percentage of newsgroups were moderated. On redirect,
Hansen posed that question to Donna Hoffman of Vanderbilt University.
She replied that most newsgroups are unmoderated. Later, Bradner of
Harvard University added that moderated newsgroups amount to less
than 10 percent of the total.
Dolores Sloviter is the third judge on the panel. As the chief judge
of the U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals, she penned a sparkling
decision upholding free expression in a phone sex case. In this
hearing, Sloviter's questions are the most pointed and incisive. When
Robert Cronenberger of Pittsburgh's Carnegie Library was testifying,
Sloviter asked him if under the CDA "would something have to be
removed from your collection?" Cronenberger replied: "We don't know.
We would be afraid that someone might find something indecent or
patently offensive."
The Department of Justice attorneys are an interesting lot. Jay Baron
is a short, heavyset man who tries hard to land roundhouse punches
during cross-examination but instead comes across as prone to
malapropisms. I think he was the DoJer who confused
with and "ISP" with "IP address." Before the
hearing resumed for the afternoon, I introduced myself to him. He
recognized me as a plaintiff and said he included one of my articles
on Marty Rimm as evidence (!) and used it during depositions.
Tony Coppolino is more reserved and didn't say much when we chatted,
except to say that his office is busy enough with this case that they
won't be sending anyone to the Computers, Freedom and Privacy
conference next week.
I was impressed by the poise of Patricia Rosado, the DoJ's point
person on porn. Yesterday she floated the MacKinnonesque theory that
porn is harmful not just to minors, but also to women. Today she
greeted our witnesses with a barbed, stinging cross-examination.
Unfortunately for Rosado, she was up against Cronenberger, a likable
gent who came across as a traditional librarian close to the judges'
own ages -- not a net.geek like Donna Hoffman and Scott Bradner. (At
one point, Judge Sloviter demanded that Bradner explain URLs and
linking in English, not net-ese.)
The judges gladly related to Cronenberger's description of the Net as
a library -- finally, something they could grasp! The ACLU's Chris
Hansen expanded on this in a brilliant redirect, pointing out that the
concept extends beyond that of a traditional library, allowing a user
to link "from the fourth floor of Wiedner Library in Boston to the
third floor of the Carnegie Mellon University library in Pittsburgh."
Rosado from the DoJ rallied with questions like:
DoJ: "You can do a keyword search on the seven dirty words?"
DoJ: "Would a search on Abraham Lincoln turn up articles about sex?"
R.C.: "I've read many articles about his sex life, or lack
of sex life.
DoJ: "Would a search on travel turn up articles about sex?"
DoJ: "Would a search on geology turn up articles about sex?"
R.C. "Only if rock is put together with roll!" )
DoJ: "Would a search on food turn up articles about sex?"
DoJ: "You exercise discretion as to what you make available. You don't
carry everything, do you?"
DoJ: "You select materials that reflect the local community standards?"
Not surprisingly, the DoJ is trying to keep the hearing focused on
porn and sex. (At least it keeps Buckwalter awake!) Not the truly
extreme stuff that obscenity laws already ban online, but the softcore
Playboy-style cyberpix that would be permitted in the absence of the
CDA. The Justice Department asked Vanderbilt's Hoffman:
DoJ: "You stated in your deposition that you were generally familiar
with the web page called Bianca's Smut Shack?"
Judge Dalzell immediately looked up, startled: "Bianca's WHAT?"
DoJ: "Bianca's SMUT Shack."
Judge Dalzell: "Oh, okay."
Other DoJ questions included a passing reference to would-be cyberporn
researcher Marty Rimm, who claimed that pornographers were using the
Net to recruit customers. (Last month, the DoJ attached Rimm's study
as an exhibit in their response to our complaint and cited it as
evidence of the pervasiveness of nasty stuff on USENET.) Some examples:
DoJ: "You will concede, will you not, that this law will not have a
profound adverse effect [on password-protected smutty sites]?"
DoJ: "Pornographers are using USENET newsgroups to advertise, are
they not?"
DoJ: "Tell us about bots and spiders."
Judge Dalzell, trying hard: "That's an acronym, right?"
My fellow plaintiffs are wonderful. Kiyoshi Kuromiya testified the
first day, followed by Patricia Nell Warren. Warren and I had dinner
on Thursday with Jonathan Wallace of the Ethical Spectacle; we talked
about the political and social forces behind the push for the CDA. I
asked Wallace why he came down from New York City -- he told me
because "this is the most important free speech case in 60 years."
Today I sat next to the DoJ's net.experts, who kept leaning forward to
whisper technical data into the ears of the Justice Department's
attorneys. One of the two experts was from Brigham Young University.
The other was Steve Nesbitt from the Department of Defense. One or
both likely will be testifying as expert witnesses for the DoJ, but
Justice isn't releasing the list until April 3.
Stay tuned for more reports.
We're back in court on 4/1, 4/12, 4/15, and 4/26. The DoJ will be
taking depositions from our remaining witnesses the week of March 24.
For more information and breaking updates, check out:
http://fight-censorship.dementia.org/top/
To subscribe to the fight-censorship announcement list, send email with
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" in the body to:
majordomo@sojourn.com
Other relevant web sites:
http://www.eff.org/
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~declan/rimm/
http://www.cdt.org/
http://www.aclu.org/
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ANGELS...
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:09:51
EID:05fc 20786120
MSGID: 1:284/120 7903034b
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Dawn Kleuser <=-
-=> Quoting Dawn Kleuser to J.j. Hitt <=-
DK> ... (singing) I LOVE ANGELS, YES I DO, I LOVE ANGELS, HOW BOUT YOU?...
JB> Baked or boiled or in a stew.
JB> But don't forget to pluck those wings,
JB> 'Cuz when you tend to chew a few,
JB> They stick your gums, and that stings.
JB> (For the writers out there...yes, I know my meter doesn't scan
JB> properly)
Hey, that was cute. Consider this:
People are those kinds of creatures,
So dim and unsure of thier own features, That given time, they become blind
To the Godsent beauty of another kind. Angels hold open that spring-loaded
door That automatically locks before A person would ever know it. And if
people had God and they could SHOW it, There'd be no spring to blow it And
there'd be no dependence on Angels. But all the same, no person's complete
Without an Angel to give him a treat And a little peek at the good side
of life Of which I speak...... What is an Angel, you may ask. To explain
this is quite a task. An Angel is a point of view Only seen when your heart
is blue, Suffering pathogenic ocular dissonance, And you beleive in Heaven.
This is an excerpt from a very LONG poem I wrote a few years ago. I pateintly
await your responses... I'm sure I'll get quite a few . Have fun... -
Dawn ... Pathogenic ocular dissonance means color blindness. ___ Blue Wave/QWK
v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: CONVERSATION CHOICES
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:09:52
EID:b07b 20786120
MSGID: 1:284/120 7903035c
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Dawn Kleuser <=-
JB> No, no dear, what I meant was that the mistake you made here, you
JB> won't make elsewhere, will you? That's what I mean about learning from
JB> your mistakes.
Lord, I hope not!
JB> BTW, the last part...with the 'sorry'...that's a tagline, not an
JB> apology. Only the fundiest of fundies comments on taglines other
JB> than to say 'stolen'.
Alright, I am guilty of being "the fundiest if fundies"... do I get some
sort of prize for that?
... This tagline is free of bad language, threats, and sexual innuendo.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Alias a joke
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:09:52
EID:c89e 20786120
MSGID: 1:284/120 7903036d
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Dawn Kleuser <=-
DK> now. :-) Well, see ya around HOLYSMOKE, and thanx again... - Dawn
DK> BTW, what's up with your name? Just curious. :-)
MM> Your welcome. As for the name. I at one time sat in a restaurant
MM> clipping warts off of my hand. Someone named me and it has just stuck.
MM> That and the fact that I tend to giggle at small sharp pains. Hmmm...
maybe you'd have a clue why people around here like to call me the "Angel
Fundy"?!?!?!? Have fun - Dawn
... "Love it or leave it, she with the deadly bite" - Metallica ___ Blue
Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Angels...
|Date: 24 Mar 96 12:09:53
EID:edbf 20786120
MSGID: 1:284/120 7903037e
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Dawn Kleuser <=-
DK> Some may like to go around screaming all sorts of nasty everything at
DK> people. I am not one of them. I choose not to resort to blatant
DK> flaming when stomped by you guys... well, at least till the next
DK> time you really piss me off...
MM> The key, is to be able to disagree without anger attached. Realize
MM> that there is not going to be agreement, but there might be tolerance.
MM> Nice to see you trying to swim with the sharks, maybe if enough
MM> swimmers join into the noise in the area the sharks will want to eat
MM> elsewhere?
Somehow, I doubt that. I've come to realize I might as well be a dolphin
among a bunch of Orcas! Ah, well... dolphins have been proven to be SMARTER
anyway. :-) Have fun - Dawn
... Clap on! (clap, clap) Clap off! (clap@#$%&!NO CARRIER ___ Blue Wave/QWK
v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 284/120 2809/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: COME TOGETHER
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:40:00
EID:f5ad 20788500
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Judith Bandsma <=-
NS> and I think I recall guys who would fix the holes in pots and pans
NS> too, though I can't remember what we called them.
Tinkers. We also had a man who came around in a cart pulled by a mule to
collect rags. My home town still has 2 garbage pickups. Scraps and kitchen
waste get picked up by a pig farmer for making into swill. Everything else
goes to the incinerator.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 5
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:51:00
EID:9e1d 20788660
-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Judith Bandsma <=-
BJ> I posted parts 1 & 2 a couple 'o weeks ago...they weren't sent out in
BJ> that packet...did you happen to catch them then?
Nope. FIDO's been a really lousy dog lately. Back to obedience school for
him. (Maybe neutering would help)
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: ABUSERS
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:52:00
EID:2ed9 20788680
-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Judith Bandsma <=-
BJ> I know how scary it can be, believe me...
Take it seriously, my dear. And give his name and description to as many
of
your new friends as will listen to you. If I had done that one thing, I'd
have been warned and able to get away when Jack found me.
Anyone who would kill an animal as punishment would not hesitate to do the
same to you.
... Tagline Deleted: Nothing funny about this shit.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: SATAN WHAT A LAUGH
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:19:00
EID:68d0 20788a60
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Brad Jackson <=-
NS> Is Jesus on your bulletin board too? How about Elvis? Jerry Garcia?
Jerry has better taste than to hang around with the likes of those 2.
And I haven't heard ANY Deadheads yet claiming to have seen him in the
7-11 in Marin. You do hear a lot of choruses of 'He's Gone', though.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:30:00
EID:4fb0 20788bc0
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell A LITTLE HELP FROM SP wgah'nagl
NS> BTW, what is this? ^^^^^ Is it the Lemurian recipe for Spam or
NS> something?
NORBERT!!!!!! Are you telling us that you've never read Lovecraft and
the associated Cthulu mythos? Hie thee to a library, boy!
... Cthulhu Express: when it absolutely has to be an eldritch horror.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:10:53
EID:ee86 20787140
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31559019
REPLY: 1:116/19 04799CB8
Al Schroeder said "HITLER" to J.J. Hitt, adding:
JJ> on the ultimate destination of suicides. There's too great a danger
JJ> to them of historical evidence turning up of the suicide of some
JJ> favored Saint or Pope. (I suspect it's fairly common among their
JJ> clerics and, like the sexual exploits, kept quiet.) Then they
JJ> would have to do the Saint Christopher tapdance all over again.
AS> Okay, I'll admit my ignorance here. What was so controversial about
AS> Saint Christopher?
That's "Mister" Christopher to you, ever since--I believe--the
70s. The Vatican looked into the backgrounds of some of their more
miraculous personages and concluded in Chris' case that not only did
the evidence fall short of supporting his sainthood, but also it was
insufficient to support the guy's very existence. Not that such
stirrings of officialdom keeps him from lounging and leaning upon
the billowing breasts of millions of good Catholic girls in need of
his special services, nonexistent though they may be.
Later, you say to me:
DM> understood by native speakers of those languages? I can
DM> sound very French so long as no sneaky Francophones are in
DM> the audience.
AS> Acts 2:1-13. The foreigners in Jerusalem each heard them speaking in
AS> their own language, Parthians, Medes, Egyptian, Romans, etc.
One man's Mede is another man's Persian.
AS> It seems
AS> to be a VERY different experience from what modern charismatic
AS> churches experience, where one person is basically babbling and
AS> another one is telling the rest that they are saying the Gettysburg
AS> address.
As Linda explained it, it was more Babelfish-like (and here we
thought that Adams was making that stuff up . . . )
Later still, you say:
DM> You might find an article on population control in the
DM> Scientific American back around '72 interesting. Before
DM> 1900, the predominant form of active population cotrol in
DM> Europe and the US was infanticide.
AS> I'm sure, since condoms were not widely circulated or bought. Many
AS> of them consisted of the pre-1900 equivelent of the woman who has a
AS> child and leaves it in a dumpster. But, I think if you will look at
AS> the statistics, it is a TINY fraction of the population and...more
AS> importantly...not condoned by society as a whole.
1.5 million abortions annually is a TINY fraction of a
population of 260 million, yet there are some who get all worked up
about it. And infanticide was institutionalized in the 18th and 19th
centuries in the form of foundling hospitals. In England, these
farmed out the kids to "baby farmers" who got something like ten
shillings to care for the tad and who would come back for another in
a couple of months, saying "the last poor tyke just never thrived
and went to his Maker." Usually it never thrived because of a
liberal use of "Mother's Friend" (gin) to keep it quiet. Napolean
established the French version, which included a sort of lazy susan
device in the wall for dropping off unwanted babies anonymously, and
since the French didn't believe in the use of gin, the kids mostly
just starved. Both systems were kept very busy and had a mortality
rate of about 90%. Country folk, without such urban niceties, simply
drowned infants in ditches (you'll remember the witch's formula from
Shakespeare's Macbeth calling for body parts of babies "ditch
delivered by a drab", referring to the practice of dropping and
drowning in a one-stop service), or "overlay" them in bed (cf
Marilyn Burge on this heading in today's bag here).
The kids who survived in England were typically apprenticed at
age 6 to the only trade that paid for (rather than demanding payment
of) apprentices: the trade of chimney sweeping. Our Republicans did
not invent cost-cutting techniques for public welfare systems,
embrace those techniques though they may. In England, the kid rarely
survived the apprenticeship period (which is why the demand for
replacements was so great. Those who did often developed amusing
diseases like cancer of the scrotum from the soot. At least that
would help hold their birthrates down without resort to abortion.
AS> If you think the
AS> average US citizen of 1850 said, "Oh, by the way, my wife had
AS> another child the other day, but we didn't need another mouth to
AS> feed, so I offed the brat," you are sadly mistaken...and if they DID,
AS> they would be looked on with horror and as a murderer.
Why would you accuse me of thinking such a moronic thing? For
one thing, the pattern usually did not involve anyone about capable
of saying "My wife . . . ", as it was usually the act of some
wretched woman acting alone; for another, people do many things
without talking about them. You don't hear many people saying today,
"Oh, by the way, we whipped the wife down to the abortion clinic for
a little drape and scrape t'other day," now DO you? Yet abortions
are legal in this country, the way infanticide never was.
No, infanticide was not socially condoned in the 19th century;
it was mostly not talked about. The one exception to this was its
use as a plot element in novels of the time (indicating something
about how widespread the practice was: plot elements depend upon
real events, not unthinkable ones), often by way of contrast to show
how much more honourable it was for a single, pregnant girl to
committ suicide than to hurl a newborn into a millrace, and the
moralists probably had a point there, if you overlook the fact that
the impact upon the fetus/child was essentially the same.
Besides, infanticide was largely the province of the Lower
Orders, whose peccadilloes, so long as they did not harm their
betters, were often shrugged at, just as white Americans today often
shrug at black crime that does not affect "the nice neighborhoods."
AS> You have to go to a pre-Chrisian culture to find
AS> ones that routinely approved of exposing unwanted children,
Christians have ever preferred the covert to honesty.
AS> with the exception of the medieval
AS> superstition of the changeling, and the only way they justified that
AS> was by saying the child was not really a human at all.
Now, would you care to cite ONE example of a Greek exposed child
OTHER than Oedipus? If you cannot (and I rather expect you cannot,
as who the hell knows of any other than he?) consider the parallals:
you cite a medieval superstition as a half-assed "justification",
while Liaus and Jocasta acted upon the advice of the orthodox
religion of the day. The forecast (from Appollo, god of truth, and
certainly in this case spot on) was that the kid would kill his
father and marry his mother.. In horror, they nailed (some versions
say "bound") the kid's ankles together and had him exposed on a
rock, feeling that his death was far preferable (to himself as well
as to them) to his fulfillment of the prophecy (and if you had the
word of the god you believe in that a kid of yours was going to do
such a thing, would you do any differently?). The only problem with
the plan was that it didn't work--it was so hard to get good help
back then: if you wanted a kid exposed on a rock, you had to do it
for yourself. Had Laius done so, we would not today have an Oedipus
story, as the kid would NOT have grown up to kill his father and
marry his mother.
Now, barring any other examples on your part, how does this
comport with a society (one without the blessings of a higher
Christian morality) that "routinely approved of exposing unwanted
children." In what way is the Oedipus story "routine?"
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE ON THE WEB!
|Date: 24 Mar 96 10:58:20
EID:acee 20785740
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3155901a
REPLY: 1:116/19 04E27B84
Al Schroeder said "HOLYSMOKE ON THE WEB!" to Don Martin, adding:
rs> The Unofficial Father, Son, and Holysmoke web site has finally made
rs> it to the world wide web. We're taking the fight to the internet.
rs> Point your browser to http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~rshaw.
DM> Looks great! Less filling!
rs> Also, commments are always welcome.
DM> I didn't see a place to post them. Of course, I am an
DM> older person and tend to miss things.
AS> As one older person to another...when you first log on, the option
AS> that says, "pray for us"---that brings up an email form to send your
AS> comments to.
That would certainly be the last button _I_ would push. You can
also click on Ryan's name. However, the Web set-up at work is not
fully implemented, and I generally cannot do email through it.
Elsewhere, you say:
AS> BTW, saw your picture at Ryan Shaw's unofficial web site. I think
AS> you're probably the most distinguished looking of the pictured ones.
At my age, distinguished is easy; the hard part is avoiding
extinguished.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Seed
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:39:11
EID:a495 20786ce0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3155901b
Jim Germiquet said "Seed" to All, adding:
JG> Well I lost all my message replies <50+) due to a bad cluster. I am
JG> now accessing this base from a different bbs. Hope to be able to get
JG> back into the swing of things. If you didn't recieve a reply, it was
JG> because of the lost message packet :(
Those of you with me on his twit filter probably will not notice
much change, of course, nor will anyone expecting him to make any
sense. This is, however, the first "incoming" Sheneism I've
encountered.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: fof update, staal
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:48:00
EID:d96a 20786e00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3155901c
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2f876beb
Katherine Wintersnight said "fof update, staal" to Kevin D. Mckenzie, adding:
KDM>Me too. If I remember correctly, he left for about a month.
KW> The only real question that I have is: How closely are Steve and
KW> Assmodiddly related?
They are children of a common mother.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Feelthy Gestures
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:49:01
EID:79de 20786e20
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3155901d
If you listen to "Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers" on NPR,
you may have heard next week's Puzzler saturday afternoon. It has to
do with certain events back in 1415. The French and the English were
not--as usual--getting along, and the French proclaimed that after
defeating the English, they would cut off the body parts to which
the Brits owed their prowess.
The two armies, the French significantly larger, met at
Agincourt, and the English carried the day, killing much of the
French nobility and wreaking havoc with their troops generally. When
the French surrendered, the English derisively displayed the body
parts the French had promised to prune, and the gesture remains to
this day.
The Puzzler question: what were the body parts?
We know, don't we gang? And here I thought the index and middle
fingers V-spread was a _feminine_ gesture, possibly referring to the
target's mother. How wrong I was! They are the body parts most
needed for an archer's prowess.
Tune in next Saturday!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:10:55
EID:3ae2 20787140
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3155901e
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 1444e7f3
Rob Burcham said "1 god plus 1 god plus" to Larry Bevard, adding:
LB> For example, 4 years ago I broke a bone in my
LB> foot. It was x-rayed and no less than three doctors stated it was
LB> broken. Yet three days later another x-ray was taken and there was
no
LB> brake or even bruising. Now, x-rays and doctor reports exist on this,
LB> but it is again hard to believe.
RB> It's hard to believe God would bother mending your broken
RB> foot while millions of children go starving.
Ah, but THOSE little fuckers just don't pray right . . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Thomas Soles
|Sub: Inner symbols and the mark of the beast.
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:12:51
EID:e444 20788980
Reply to message originally in "INTERUSER"
Whilst masticating on , Thomas Soles (1:3674/10)
wrote to Scientologists:
TS> Greetings hellbound pagans. So how is the cloud of satan doing in your
TS> life today? New agers, zen, buddhists, and you scientologist if you
want
TS> to try and see if those auditing hours paid off write me and see how
fast
TS> Jesus shoots down your fake, stupid, and false religion. Every knee
will
TS> bow and every satanic, mormon, atheist, new ager, JW's and you know
who
TS> you are, tongue will confess JESUS to his face and try showing how
smart
TS> you are then. You spiritual time clock is ticking away, and when your
TS> battery runs out there will not be a little pink bunny to save you,
only
TS> demons claiming your soul. Jesus is the way...
...maggots get food. That's what happens to dead bodies, even Jewish ones.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: determinsm & co.
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:32:12
EID:3f8c 20788c00
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 315684f2
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89484388
22 Mar 96 08:09, Michael Hardy wrote to Norbert Sykes:
MH> Look at what John said:
JP>> There is that damn determinism aspect to this too. If your
JP>> god(s) are worthy of the title, they know the outcome of
JP>> everything. Outside my apartment is a large, slick, icy patch.
JP>> Your god(s) supposedly know if I will walk on it and slip on that
JP>> patch, but I don't. To them, the outcome is already known, and I
JP>> merely have the
MH> He uses the possessive pronoun "your." He's talking specifically
MH> about my beliefs; yet my belief is in God, not god(s). And in regard
MH> to those god(s), he uses the third-person plural throughout.
You've got 4 gods, Mikey. Just because you don't want to call 'em gods doesn't
mean they aren't. Maybe you wouldn't be suffering from this confusion if
you Christians didn't try to use a job description as a name.
But then, whoever said Christians were intelligent?
MH> would hold up. But he's not -- he's talking about mine in particular,
MH> and intentionally misrepresenting it. (Or else not understanding it.)
Are you stupid enough to flatly deny that you have four gods, Mikey?
Would someone forward this to Hardly? Thanks.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 3615/1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:37:08
EID:283d 20788ca0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 315684fd
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8948438A
22 Mar 96 08:45, Michael Hardy wrote to 3b1e4a59cf:
3b>> ! Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter!
MH> Wasn't one of the frequent criticisms of the Jim Staal Collection
MH> that he used pseudonyms in order to circumvent twit filters? :)
You're so damned predictable, Mikey. You are forgetting one thing, though
(although that doesn't really surprise me - you have a tendency to forget
unpleasant facts). No one who twitted Jim made as much of a production out
of it as you did.
Would someone forward this to Mikey, please? Thanks.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 3615/1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Dutch cats
|Date: 23 Mar 96 01:09:48
EID:cfbc 20770920
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156feb2
JH> police discovered his remains. His cats would come and go through a
JH> window, but return to the house to feed off their owner's body.
NS> Cool. Kitty Kommunion, or sorts. Them cats were _loyal_!
RJ> As the old editor at the city desk told me long ago, as he
RJ> stubbed out his fifth cigar of the morning in the ashtray
RJ> on the desk, "Son, we don't run stories about 'man eats
RJ> pussy'--that happens every day. Come back when you got one
RJ> where 'pussy eats man'."
RJ> I'd thank him for passing that wisdom onto me, but he keeled
RJ> over in his chair with a liver you could crack a walnut on
RJ> about a hundred years ago.
NS>
NS> I bet this has been a hard anecdote to fit into conversation, eh?
NS> Heh. LMOA . . .
NS>
Oh, don't you KNOW it! The last time I got a chance to tell
it, I was in this biker bar and held a broken Jack Daniels
bottle to this hogrider's throat to make him listen to me.
Lucky for me, he bust a gut laughing so everything chilled
out and he called off his old lady, who was behind me with
a crowbar aimed right at my occipital, ready to crack it like
a cheap chinaplate in a Greek restaurant. 'Course, that was
back in the crazy days...
... I smoke Elvis Presley's toenails when I wanna get high.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Brehond Laws 2/2
|Date: 23 Mar 96 13:39:13
EID:1626 20776ce0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156feb6
JH> Never have understood why people are nostalgic for such times.
NS>
NS> My (far too-long) experience with the Society for Creative
NS> Anachronism has taught me that they were nostalgic over an _idealized_
NS> vision of it, not the real thing. At the present date, I consider the
A 1950s Hollywood version of the Middle Ages, at that.
NS> SCA to be a cult of sorts, so I'm glad I'm outta there. I rarely met
NS> more people who failed to live up to their spoken/written ideas
NS> outside of any church.
NS>
Point.
... Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: analogy
|Date: 23 Mar 96 13:58:11
EID:5cbf 20776f40
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156feb7
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89464387
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I've given up on seeing any of you ever come to realize how wrong
MH> this little scenario is, but I might as well make a token gesture. The
MH> reality is like this:
MH> Your dad: "Son, it's below freezing out here. I've got a big
MH> warm house. I know you left of your own free will, but I hate to see
MH> you out here all by yourself in the cold. Why don't you come in and
MH> spend the night?"
MH> You: (defiantly) "I'm not cold. And I don't want to spend the night
MH> in your house."
MH> Your dad: "Well, it's unlocked. Just come in whenever you're ready to
MH> admit you're cold."
MH> You: "That's coercion! If you really loved me, you wouldn't have let
MH> me leave in the first place."
MH> Your dad: "If I had forced you to stay, you'd have called me a tyrant
MH> and been woefully miserable."
MH> You: "Well I'm not coming back now."
AS> Good analogy.
MH> I thought so. I'm coming to the conclusion, though, that most of the
MH> people who post here have their minds sealed shut against any sort of
MH> idea which contradicts what they already think. (And I include
MH> atheists and theists alike in that statement.) In two years I have
MH> seen not one person ever say "You know, I never thought of it like
MH> that before. That makes a lot of sense."
Mikey, there you go again, filing off the biggest thorn on
your faded rose. See, in your scenario, you failed to mention
that Dear Old Dad is the guy who MADE it -10 degrees outside.
He could've made it 72 and balmy, but he instead _made_ the
weather inhumanly sufferable. Why is it you insist on removing
culpability for your god's strongarm tactics when he pretty
much fessed up to everything in the Book of Isaiah? YOUR GOD
CREATED EVIL, MIKEY!
Now as soon as _you_ ponder that nugget of info, you'll see
what "makes a lot of sense."
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Come Together
|Date: 24 Mar 96 01:40:10
EID:282b 20780d00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156febe
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3152e583
RJ> abouts. Don't these people do _anything_ useful?
DM> Of course not. If you were a Russo-Irish aristocrat,
Yeah, but everyone's so *boring*! I could read Henry James
for that, if I wanted to. I don't, however.
DM> would _you_? (If you really want to see idleness, check out
DM> Gonscharov's "Oblomov", about one who made an art form of
DM> it.)
And who could forget Ignatius Reilly from "A Confederacy
of Dunces"?
... "Trapped In A Tigercage!", by Claude Balzac
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:36:22
EID:3aff 20787c80
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156fec8
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314b3dd4
MB>> Well I can agree on that and thank you for this post I told a
MB>> Preacher freind of mine about this to night at his church and he
MB>> said that our argument was for nought that the stratum had been
MB>> found but that the non-belivers had hid the evidence so as not to
MB>> prove the Bible.
DW> Really? Do me a favor and ask your preacher friend exactly how the
DW> unbelievers managed to hide this stratum. Be sure to get back to me
DW> with this information - I am intensely curious about this.
Yes, I'm _quite_ intrigued by this as well. After all, we'd
have to cover the stratum on every square inch of the globe.
How can we do that when just any yahoo can go dig in their
own backyard until they reach that layer? Imagine the con-
spiracy! That's something only the Blue Council could pull off.
... * Origin: POLYTETRAFLUORETHYLENE! NETWORK: Slippery Plastic Jeezoids!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: wwcr
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:39:36
EID:58db 20787ce0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156fec9
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64131741
JH> Stair. Brother Stair, who is cut from the same cloth as Steve
JH> Winter, at least isn't a racist. And while he embraces every
JH> nutball conspiracy theory to come down the pike, he can not be
JH> thought of as a member of the Religious ultra-Right as he vigorously
JH> condemns patriotism saying a believer's loyalty belongs to God and
JH> not to any national entity. Stair is the character I once heard who
So then, he's like Prewett?
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sid Vicious
|Sub: who wrote it
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:44:15
EID:7e44 20787d80
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156feca
REPLY: 1:2805/5.2 3150d658
SV> Tuesday March 19 1996 21:07, Martin Goldberg wrote to Michael Hardy:
MG> I've asked for evidence. All I get is bible quotes. Do you have any
MG> physical evidence?
SV> Speaking of braindead, where's Rectal?
SV> -!- FMail/386 1.02
SV> ! Origin: No Future....No Future....No Future for You.... (1:2805/5.2)
That's okay...we won't tell. Not right away, at least.
... "Never turn down an opportunity to piss." -- Gen. George Patton
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:49:53
EID:6de2 20787e20
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156fecb
REPLY: 1:284/120 7603236f
DK> intelligent discussion, if I can find any! When I said "giggles", I
DK> meant those sarcastic lurkers (you know who you are) who'd rather
DK> scream all sorts of nasties at me than actually continue a rational
DK> discussion.
Lurkers don't participate. That's why they're called "lurkers".
GR> I'm an atheist male and bake Christmas cookies. Following a recipe
GR> isn't rocket science.
DK> No, it isn't. So, let's discuss something a little more mind-jogging.
DK> You say you are an athiest male. This means that you do not beleive
DK> in any god or spritual anything. Correct me if I'm wrong with that.
It also means he has a Y-chromosome, too.
DK> Does that also mean that you put no credit in anything religious? If
DK> so, then why are you in HOLYSMOKE?
ROFL!! That's EXACTLY why about 60% of the echo participates
in this echo. We remind people who choose to be blind what
an awful thing their religion is. About 30% try to "save the
sinners" and another 10% probably just don't get it, or they
already get it and like to see a little fireworks show.
GR> ... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a
GR> parachute.
DK> Is that to say any religious belief is a death-sentence, in your
Most religions worship death. Christianity is one of the
absolute worst, since it also worships suffering as well as
death. What's their biggest-selling logo? A guy who's
nailed to a couple of boards. And people get on to Proctor
& Gamble for that man-in-the-moon thing!
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: [1/2] Re: Tithe
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:58:57
EID:1c33 20787f40
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3156fecc
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 31530ff0
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Larry Bevard [1/2] Re: Tithe wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LB> orphains and widows. The Bible also teaches that ALL we have is a
LB> gift from God, so we shouldn't worry about how nice a house we live
PS> What gift did Ed Gein have?
Very economical with his carcasses. Made furniture out of 'em.
PS> What gift did Howard Unruh have?
Never 'eard 'im.
PS> What gift did Josef Stalin have?
Well, whatever his gift was, he gave it a couple of weeks
later. You know those Russian Orthodox folks celebrate
Xmas in January.
PS> What gift did Adolph Hitler have?
Volkswagens. And he found out how to seat so many people
in the ashtrays!
PS> What gift did Vlad Tepes have?
Balls. Plus that really kewl technique of sliding that 20'
spike under the spine so no major organs would be punctured.
That way, you can keep a Turk groaning and twitching in the
air for two or three days.
... And I need not go into the attributes of...the codling grinder.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
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PATH: 390/87 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 25 Mar 96 16:11:37
EID:6d57 20798160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31570c09
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Barnett Angel Fundy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DW>Really? Do me a favor and ask your preacher friend exactly how the unbelieve
DW>managed to hide this stratum. Be sure to get back to me with this informatio
DW>I am intensely curious about this.
MB> Ok I will try and talk to him sunday and get back to you sunday night
MB> but no promises he thinks I have fell in with the devil because I talk
MB> to you all.
So much for going forth and preaching the gospel to all creatures.
... ICR: Ignorant Creationist Rantings.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: THE CONSTELATION
|Date: 24 Mar 96 09:04:00
EID:3925 20784880
MSGID: 1:116/19 02173B7E
AS> If the old Cat People comes on television (but you don't get cable,
AS> right? Fat chance.) get it. Or it MIGHT be in video.
JB> Is that the one with Gale Sondergard or Simone Signoret? (I can never
JB> remember) I think I saw that in the cheapie section of videos in Wal-Mart
JB> a couple weeks ago.
Let me look in my wife's VIDEOHOUND GOLDEN MOVIE RETRIEVER GUIDE. It had
Jane Randolph, Elizabeth Russell, Jack Holt, Alan Napier and Simone
Simon---probably who you were thinking of. Called "a classic among the
horror genre with unrelenting terror from beginning to end."
JB> BTW...called my middle son last night for his birthday. Going to have
a
JB> new grandchild come Sept. Only one thing I can say to that:
JB> Remember folks, spaying and neutering saves lives.
JB> Better them than me.
But...but...you ARE going to volunteer to babysit, aren't you? You can't
wait to see the little darling, can you? Why do I have visions of W.C.
Fields going, "Go away kid, ya bother me."
,,, I took my kids to the children's zoo...but they wouldn't take them...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 24 Mar 96 09:09:00
EID:a542 20784920
MSGID: 1:116/19 0217406A
DC> No... Besides, you will never guess who was my favorite group.
^^^^^^^^^
AS> Well, if it's that unlikely...the Monkees? The Archies? (Sorry, but
AS> you said I would never guess it, so I had to guess what I would think
AS> most unlikely for you to like...) More seriously...the Mothers of
AS> Invention? Jefferson Airplane/Starship?
JB> You really fluffed that one, didn't you, Al? Or had you never heard
JB> of Guess Who?
Uh oh. My wife says she can vaguely remember the name, and I remember the
Who, but the Guess Who? Uh...don't laugh...geez, this is
embarrassing...it was my BROTHER who was the big music buff, not me (he
had every record in the world, I had every book in the world---poetic
exaggeration there)...well, I guess the sixties WERE better to me than I
thought. They say if you remember the sixties, you weren't really
involved. I'm drawing a total blank here.
Can you name some of their songs?
... Every morning is the dawn of a new error...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 24 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:fea1 20781800
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B26BDE
AS> I think Man, left to his own devices, is capable of quite horrendous
depths
AS> of depravity. Dauchau. Auchwitz. Hiroshima. The Bosnian rape camps.
Vlad
AS> Tepes' stake-outs. And yes, I think a belief in God CAN (not necessarily
AS> will, just can) make one, if not sinless...can make one sin LESS. See
the
AS> difference?
RB> Why do so many heathens here, exhibit no racism, no sexism
RB> and little militarism? The proponents of those 'isms' are,
RB> more often than not, theists.
Well, quite frankly, you see a lot of theists HERE that exhibit no racism,
no sexism, and little militarism. And you see nontheists that do, like Jim
Lammon used to. As for historical examples...there have been fewer
atheists than nonatheists, but certainly Napoleon didn't believe. The
French Revolution, including the Terror, didn't believe. Stalin didn't
believe. All three practiced militarism, Stalin practiced racism in his
purges of Jews (among many others). Sexism? Napoleon was a firm believer
in keeping women in their place, to the point that his comments of what
was "proper" for a woman to wear could be quite devastating. The French
Revolution executed Lavosieur the discover of oxygen and one of the
greatest of chemists, saying with a curt, "The state has no need of
scientists."
However, you are right, in that the proponents of such have been, more
often than not, theists. That is because the majority of people are
theists, and have been for centuries. If say 5 per cent of theists and
nontheists exhibit such qualities, there will be more theists who exhibit
such than nontheists.
Nevertheless, I think religion can have a beneficial effect much of the
time, while acknowledging such obvious exceptions as Torquemada. Henry the
II was prone to ride roughshod over his subjects, and ordered his former
best friend, Becket, killed, after he was made Archbishop of Canterbury.
The church FORCED Henry, under pain of interdiction of the entire kingdom,
to make a pilgrimage to Becket's tomb, and he did not ride quite as
roughshod over his subjects after that. Some of Chesterton's best writing
came AFTER his conversion (interestingly enough, he was writing the Father
Brown stories some ten years before he became Catholic) and I could say
similar things about C.S. Lewis.
... DO NOT ADJUST YOUR MIND--The fault is with reality.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 24 Mar 96 03:06:00
EID:6dc2 207818c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B26FB2
AS> Why is believing in a Resurrection intellectually dishonest? I have
never
AS> said DISBELIEVING in one is intellectually dishonest. If there is a
AS> Designer of the laws of nature, why can He not set them aside at will.
RB> There is no other comparable historical event that you
RB> would accept so readily. The event is irrevocably connected
RB> to your chosen beliefs. Therefore, THIS incredible tale is
RB> reasonable.
Oh, I have no doubt I have my bias. The interesting thing is to try to
find another such miracle so strongly buttressed...multiple witnesses,
people willing to die or be tortured for saying they saw it, a miracle
that is intrinsicly connected with the claims involved. There seem to have
been three seperate sources that claim that the Emperor Vespasian did two
seperate instances of miraculous healing...Seutonius, Tacitus and Dion
Cassius. I might even grant that, of God taking mercy on those afflicted
and using a reasonably good Emperor, even though not a believer, as a
vehicle for healing. (And of course, one cannot rule out psychosomatic
cures, which I am convinced most "faith" healing truly is.) But it goes
nowhere. The Emperor Vespasian made no especial claims for himself, unlike
some of the earlier Emperors. It goes nowhere. But Jesus claimed to be
coeval with God, and then He performed miracles, including one
unmatched...raising oneself from the dead.
Suppose you have a dozen people gathered from various lunatic asylums
who claim to be aliens. You write it off, but if ONE of them starts doing
things no human can do...if a dozen people claim (and further, are willing
to be jailed for fraud rather than renounce their claims) that they SAW
him go into an interstellar vehicle and fly off. (Not unlike the
Ascension...) Then I would examine HIS former life and details of his
biography much more closely.
However, if I a priori think that the prospect of alien intelligent life
existing is little or nil, I will dismiss them all, no matter what the
other person says.
I think my position is a little closer to the one examining the details
of the person's biography. I think, quite frankly, yours is closer to the
one who a priori dismisses any possibility of it.
... By all means, let's not confuse ourselves by the facts.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 24 Mar 96 04:04:00
EID:d888 20782080
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B2734A
SA> (about Anthony Grigor-Scott)
AS> Send the Warner Brothers (and Warner sister), Yakko, Wacko, and Dot
AS> after him...
SA> Can I watch PLEASE!!! I haven't been able to watch that trio
SA> lately, as they are only available on a cable channel...
I'm lucky. We do get it on a cable channel---every afternoon and twice on
Sunday mornings. When my kids are sick we watch it, and we have a chance
to see at least one of them before we go to church.
SA> I agree with this sentiment. I strongly hope that AGS is a group
SA> of one when it comes to his religion...it would be too scary to think
SA> that any more people than that can be THAT idiotic (I am not trying
to
SA> slam Christianity with this, only AGS).
I understand. I found a web page the other day devoted to Branham, the
"Prophet" he follows, though, so there is more than one nut on the tree.
Scary, isn't it? JJ Hitt knows a lot about these nuts, seemingly.
SA> I, for one, put this idiot into his very own category. Even Jim
SA> at his worst was never even close to being this bad, and there are
SA> indications that Jim has room to improve if he wants to (which I have
SA> not seen from AGS). Heck, I don't even think that Prewitt with his
JFK
SA> theories is this bad.
Usually. Most of Prewitt's problems when I read him (although I understand
he has made some hateful remarks about gays which were before my time) had
to do with his JFK/Beast theory. It seemed pretty ludicrous, but it hurt
nobody. Grigor-Scott's theories, though, involve denying that the Israelis
are the true "Jewish race" to reconcile his faith in what he reads in the
OT with his distate for Judaism and Jews.
That's dangerous. Wagner and others had anti-Semitic ideas, and though
it was hateful, they weren't dangerous in and of themselves...or not
horribly dangerous. But then Adolf Hitler heard the opinions of these and
used it to frame the "Final Solution". I'm not really afraid of
Grigor-Scott, but I am of the venom he spouts...I'm afraid it might find
fertile gorund.
AS> Of course, I like arguing with NON-Christian
AS> loons, like the unlamented Jim Lammon or the idiotic Asmodeus.
AS> Everybody has to have a hobby. That's mine.
SA> Please do... it contributes to the unique atmosphere here.
SA> Besides, who am I to step on anyone's hobby? ;)
Besides, if you will notice, I flame relatively few. I must admit it IS
cathartic to really let go once in a while.
SA> Lotsa luck. While it might be the only thing that you can do
SA> from where you are (and I can not rule out that it might work someday),
SA> my personal opinion is that he will need an experience with the Warners
SA> (or the equivalent) to break the mental blocks he has on this subject.
Yeah, and my knowledge of gangland "enforcers" who could knock some sense
into him, in Australia, is unfortunately pretty limited..
... History repeats itself when nobody listens.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 24 Mar 96 04:07:00
EID:df71 207820e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B2773C
DW> If I want to send money to a Christian lunatic, I'll send it
DW> to a local one. :)
Well, I'm in the same STATE, anyway, so if you're so inclined...
(Nyaaah. I'm not a lunatic and I'd send the check back.)
... I am Ernest Angley of Borg. Prepare to be HHHEEEEAAAALLLEEEDDDD!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 24 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:d19b 20782040
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B27B7E
AS> Granted, but, does it mean, contrariwise, that one must fall back on
AS> the most improbable explanations in PREFERENCE to believing in a
AS> miracle?
DC> Improbable? A "miracle" is the most improbable explanation that
DC> there is. There are many better explanations than that, including
DC> that the xification never occurred in the first place.
Then we just have to believe in a wide spread schism from the original
believers in the Jerusalem Church, in your view, where the original
believers did not survive enough to voice their objections enough to be
even considered a "heresy". Like the example of the Republicians
rewriting hisotry to say that Lincoln was killed by Booth when he died in
his sleep, it's possible, but not an explanation you would give ANY
credence to...that so many records could be faked or tampered
with....unless you are using it for the express reason of excluding a
miracle, which you consider more improbable.
Do you KNOW that, Dan? Science works on repeatable experiments and
verification. So even if miracles did happen, they couldn't be verified,
for obviously, a miracle that happened everytime it was attempted would
not be a miracle, but be uniform enough to be considered a "law". Suppose
God on a whim turned one's thermometer into gold. You try to convince
others of that happening, and they would say, "Okay. We see it's gold NOW.
Give us evidence it was something else before, OR duplicate it." You can
do neither. It's not up to you.
I'm not asking you to believe in all miracles, or even the Christian
ones, right now. I'm asking you to consider what you feel is the basis for
your conviction that miracles are the most "improbable" of events. I think
you will find, at heart, it is an assumption, not anything demonstrated.
It is an assumption we have inherited from Hume...but is it correct?
Let me make one other approach to the possibility of the supernatural,
just a tidbit for you to think about. Both you and I, I think, have
demonstrated how much we value reason. That both you and I agree that
thinking, reasoning things out are the most beneficial exercises one can
do. But...if one is a strict naturalist...everything we think is
influenced by natural processes, and indeed began there. So how do we know
it has not warped our thinking, and there are some channels we CANNOT
think about, by those very limitations? Prof. Haldane in POSSIBLE WORLDS
once wrote,"If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions
of
atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are
true...and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed
of
atoms." But if one postulates that knowledge is something seperate from
matter, that there is a mind that reasons independent of nature, one would
have more faith that some of its convictions are true. Not that this mind,
this knowledge, doesn't use a brain to function, as the brain uses the eye
to see, but something outside natural processes.
AS> Oh, it can be reconciled without much effort, for the most part. The
DC> There should be no reason to have to reconcile the "most momentous
DC> event" in your liturgy.
The JFK assasination is perhaps the most momentous event in the
sixties. Look how many different accounts we have of the events of THAT
day, and how not all of them agree. (Just ask John Prewitt, for one.)
... What if there were no hypothetical questions?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 24 Mar 96 05:00:00
EID:4dec 20782800
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B28146
AS> Because of the recurring similarities between many mythologies, of
AS> differing climes and cultures, the "Hero of a Thousand Faces" that Campbell
AS> talks about, which has in one of its phases a Descent into the Underworld
AS> and a Return. Sound familiar? You would think different questions would
AS> spark startlingly different answers.
RB> You've turned the human proclivity for inventing religions
RB> into an asset and not a liability (all those primitive gods
RB> were merely 'practice' for the real thing). You've downplayed
AND that the similarity between the various mythos, as so well pointed out
by Campbell, needs explaining. I DO assign a cause. You don't. When a
theory explains a phenomena, it is given more probability than no
explanation at all....
RB> the insignificance of our 'speck' in the universe and it's
RB> hostility toward life (while marveling at the 'constants').
I'm sure the sealife in the early aeons of life thought the land was a
dry, inhospitable place for life. Guess what..they were right...about life
THEN. Life adapts. And yet, without the constants being that way, even
life on a few "specks" would be impossible, at least intelligent life.
Again, better than saying the constants just happened, that our universe
is only a lucky "speck" on all the possible universes that MIGHT have
been.
RB> Is there NO cage that does not have a silver lining?
I find little admirable in the Inquisition, and only a few acts of
heroism in the Crusades, if that's any comfort...
... Ignorance is slavery. Knowledge is freedom.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 24 Mar 96 05:08:00
EID:4dec 20782900
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B28682
AS> But many here--I presume you yourself---get along perfectly fine without
a
AS> belief in an afterlife.
RB> I get along fine. Nothing is perfect.
Asmodiddle was a perfect buffoon...
AS> The Sadduccees (i.e., Caiphas, etc.) in the Bible
AS> themselves, despite being the High Priest of the Jewish religion,
AS> dispensed with same. If the fear of not surviving is so all-prevasive,
AS> why do so many people accept it with equanimity? Why did no society
AS> develop without such an "abberation"?
RB> Religion seems to be a natural development among primitive tribes.
RB> Theism is not only fueled by a fear of death, it's perpetuated by
RB> tradition and indoctrination.
But as far as we can tell, it is not a developement among yet more
primitive units...gorillas and their packs/tribes/whatever don't have any
religion that we can discern, for instance. Only humans have
religion...and only humans are noticably intelligent enough to shape their
enviorment and make tools in a huge extent. I submit that rather being a
sign of primitivism, it is a sign of intelligence.
RB> Among primitive peoples, atheism was probably rarer than honest
RB> politicians. But as logical thinking improved and pressures from
RB> tradition and indoctrination lessened, the number of atheists grew.
(I
RB> have no data for any of that, but it sounds good )
It sounds very good. The thing is, though what you might call "primitive"
tribes...tribes in the rain forest, for instance...pantheism seems to be
the norm, but not a highly developed sense of a god seperate from nature.
RB> Apropos of nothing in particular: I sometimes see religion as the
RB> mother of all chain letters. It promises great things but if you
RB> break the chain, horrible misfortune will fall upon you. Most people
RB> won't risk breaking the chain.
I like it. I don't totally agree, but there's enough truth to it to
make me uncomfortable, which is a sure sign that it's getting close. Sean,
if you are reading, I think Rob's above comment would be excellent in the
FAQ.
The only thing is, unless one believes in the promises, i.e. are not
atheist, you wouldn't keep the chain letter going...
... As I said before, I do not repeat myself.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:04:00
EID:c44f 20783080
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B28BE6
AS> Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that you are PROUD to be on Mike's
AS> Twit List?
DC> What do you mean "sneaky"? I made a post to all noting that my
DC> name was at the top of Mikey's list!
True.
AS> helps to reduce the "noise ratio" of the echo. Personally, I kind of
AS> like it...sometimes you get some real winners like Asmodeus.
DC>
DC> Of course it decreases _his_ noise level. He doesn't have to answer
DC> pointed questions that undermine his "analogies".
Now, he's certainly taken it on the chin from a lot of people here. If he
wants to take a vacation from certain key posters, I can't fault
him...anymore than I fault Hector for evidently dropping out for awhile.
Either his feed is completely cut off or he got bored by only being seen
by half the country as I used to be seen by.
AS> "I wish I could pray for you," said Zeus in a mid-sixties comic
AS> book,"but there are NONE to hear the prayers of a god."
AS> It was a comic called "the (something) of HERCULES"--the labors? The
AS> trials? The adventures? It was published by Charlton Comics (the same
DC> Is that the same group that did the comics based on the Classic
DC> Novels?
No, I think Classics Illustrated was an entirely different company. They
had a DYNAMITE version of War of the Worlds, Faust, and several
others...excellent art. Their version of Hamlet stunk, though.
... God, grant me chastity. But not yet! -- St. Augustine
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: LEGEND
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:01:00
EID:f168 20783020
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B292C6
AS> Thanks. I can resist anything, except temptation, especially puns.
DC> That's why most of us are really here after all!
Yes, there is no reason to be cross with me. Since this is about religion,
there is no reason not to use religion as puns. You'd have to be a saint
to refuse and take it on the Islam.
AS> True. Even Jesus was shown wanting to literally make a prophecy come
AS> true, by getting the ass to ride into Jerusalem, thus fulfilling a
AS> Messianic prophecy. He quite obviously staged that to accord with the
AS> Scriptures, which doesn't make it any less valid.
DC>
DC> It does, hoever, make it much more suspect. After, you just noted
DC> that, in you opinion, the event _was_ staged. How many other
DC> events in the NT were also staged for that effect?
Some could have been, but the predictions were in general so vague, that
it's hard to pin down. Quite frankly, the predictions about the Messiah's
Resurrection are so vague that they could lend themselves to a variety of
meanings, which don't involve a Resurrection. I don't think the majority
of the Jews were even convinced such would happen.
AS> Church, seems to imply differently. (Notice that Jude, probably yet
AS> another brother of Jesus, just identified himself shortly as James'
AS> brother...we can assume he thought it too presumptous to stress his
AS> relationship with Jesus, but did want to get the status of being the
AS> brother of the leader of the church at the time.
DC> Which goes with the Jewish sub-cult of the original group. A brother
DC> is a potential heir to the leadership of that group.
True. And people were claiming kinship to Jesus in that area well into the
third century, via the brothers and sisters of JEsus.
... You're only young once. After that you need another excuse.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:03:00
EID:f168 20783060
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B29898
AS> Will do. It may be just a little while before we try it, Barb's doing
AS> some volunteer work, so meals this week are a little on the
AS> quick'n'easy side.
DC> It may just work in there well: If you make a meal that calls
DC> for mashed potatoes, make a larger batch than normal. Twice as
DC> much may be about right. That'll give you the leftovers to make
DC> the Deep Fried ones.
Sounds simple enough...
DC> The batter itself in nothing more than a crepe batter and is
DC> very quick to make.
Hmmm. Sounds good. Barb isn't doing any charity volunteer work, BTW, she's
helping out with a local theater that she helps supports.
... Imagine the guy who ate the first oyster!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:07:00
EID:0b92 207830e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B29DB6
AS> Speaking of half-and-half...look at the latest issue of LIFE. In it
is a
AS> story of a little girl...or two little girls, really--who have two
heads,
AS> two spinal columns, but two arms, two legs, one vagina, etc. Siamese
AS> twins who started to split and didn't get very far. Somehow they
AS> coordinate their walking without thinking about it, but if they disagree,
AS> they literally cannot move. One wants to be a jet pilot and one wants
to
AS> be a dentist. Two seperate personalities, two sets of taste buds,
one
AS> likes one food that the other doesn't...but shares the same stomach.
AS> They wouldn't be apart if they could, but of course, if they tried
to
AS> seperate them, one would die, and the other probably would have to
have
AS> many prosthetics to survive.
RB> Sorry Al, I've gotta ask it: Would a loving god allow such
RB> a thing? An indifferent nature would, but a loving god?
Read about them. The adults are not overwhelmed. They seem extremely happy
and outgoing (the twins). Yes, they will have extreme angst when they are
teenagers....well, who DOESN'T have extreme angst when they're teenagers.
Their predecessor, two Siamese males similalry cojoined, worked at Barnum
and Bailey for a while, and then married two seperate ladies and worked
on
a farm and had dozens of children. They seem perfectly healthy. Are they
REALLY so unlucky? I suspect, only if others make them feel like a freak.
Again, it is up to us.
You cannot have regular laws of inheritance and genetics...and allow for
mutation to better the species...without allowing the possibility of that
mutation also occasionally causing bad results. Two of my sons are
autistic, and in many ways they are worse off then those two little girls.
They are bright and talkative and loved, whereas an autistic can be bright
and loved, and yet still have trouble communicating the love and
everything that is needed.
Don't be afraid to ask me the hard questions, BTW. That's what I'm here
for.
... Faith is no excuse for ignorance!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: satan runs
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:09:00
EID:69dd 20783120
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B2A234
RB> Tell the truth now, Brad. Are you Captain Fuck's latest
RB> reincarnation?
I thought he might have been trolling earlier, but I haven't thought about
the good Captain being behind it...
... "Brillant, Watson. You are scintillating this morning."Sherlock Holmes
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:01:00
EID:4229 20783020
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B2A770
AS> Or...and here's another tack...if one's mind is determined by physical
AS> laws and processes, then, by definition, there is no reason to trust
the
AS> reason the mind produces. As a mere byproduct of natural processes,
there
AS> is no reason to think that reason can make intuitive leaps outside the
AS> crude stimuli it receives to true cognition. If our reason tells us
that
AS> there is nothing outside natural law, can we trust anything our reason
AS> tells us, since there is nothing independent about it, but rather it
reacts
AS> along the lines set down by natural law? The very act of knowing and
having
AS> trust in the reason you use is a sort of faith, and perhaps one that
is
AS> unjustified. IF your view is right, and our reason is nothing but the
AS> product of natural lawm, then it is merely a Skinnerian box with no
real
AS> reason...to trust our reason.
RB> If our reason is suspect concerning things mundane, then
RB> wouldn't it be even less reliable concerning things
RB> extraordinary?
We use our reason to distinguish the two. So...unless we can trust reason,
we have no way to distinguish them...
Now, if our reason is suspect (arguing the Naturalist side) than all
proofs are suspect. There can be no logical way to prove that all proofs
are logical, because you are using reason to prove it, and it is reason
itself which is suspect, IF one takes a purely Naturalist view. One can
argue that sheer perception can show cause and effect, but to make the
towering generalizations, the leaps of logic, to go beyond the concrete,
is the task of reason. Indeed, the very stands of "naturalism" and
"aetheism" are products of reason. (I might argue flawed reason, but
reason nonetheless.) They are towering speculation, going far beyond
experience. Naturalism and atheism both say there is nothing beyond what
we can perceive or show evidence for. And that, also, is a product of
reason, no matter how flawed, not direct experience or inference from
known quantities.
Now look at it from the theist view. Reason predates Creation...the
reason of God...and from it the orderliness of Nature, which alone allows
us to know anything about her, is derived. The human mind, in the act of
knowing, is illuminated by the Divine Reason. It is set free, to a limited
extent, from the whole series of non-rational causation that we observe
in
Nature. It would imply that Reason is a totally seperate thing from
Nature...a window by which we observe Nature, but not part of it.
Naturalism cannot explain Naturalism. It casts in doubt the very reason
that produces the very name, "Naturalism". Theism, on the other hand, can
at least explain the impulse. And it implies there is something
supernatural, or at least outside nature, about reason, even though the
brain is needed to explicate reason, as the tongue is needed by the brain
to talk.
... Have you ever questioned your most basic assumptions? ...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: WACO WEB SITE
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:04:00
EID:34aa 20783080
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B2AB6C
AH>> Oprah was a local reporter here in Baltimore, too. Nick Charles, John
AH>> Saunders, and Gayle Gardner all did sports here before going national.
AS> Interesting. I know Oprah's father still lives here, so I think she
must
AS> have gone from Nashville to Baltimore before she hit the big time.
AH> The lady did indeed hit the big time.
On the other hand, she used to cover news. Now she is an industry, and can
run a show about her loss (or gain) of weight. She's become famous for
trivialities.
... Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:09:00
EID:a251 20783120
MSGID: 1:116/19 03B2B012
AS> A great many peoples were wiped out, over time. In a sense, God was
behind
AS> it all, as He is ultimately behind everything that happens, for good
or
AS> for evil. I think one can say God was probably ticked off at other
AS> cultures, but without any others whom God chose to personally reveal
AS> Himself to, we can't see it.
RB> Have only 'sinful' cultures fallen victim to catastrophes and
RB> decimation? History is full of despicable cultures that have thrived
RB> and peaceful cultures that have been annihilated. The morality of a
RB> culture seems to garner no particular favoritism in the eyes of God.
Let's just say I think there might be a few instances where He did show
it. I would agree in the majority of cases.
AS> G.K. Chesterton made the point that even
AS> among pagan religions, some are better than others. The Carthaginians,
who
AS> sacrificed so many of their babes to a monster of a god like Molech,
got
AS> utterly devastated by the Romans, who worshipped the relatively more
AS> benign Greco-Roman gods....certainly more HUMAN in essence than many
of
AS> the Pheonician-influenced gods. When the remains of Carthage got salted
AS> and the Carthaginians were utterly destroyed, perhaps we see the approval
AS> of a God who had to witness thousands of innocent children who were
AS> sacrificed to a cruel, inhuman god that didn't exist. If God used a
pagan
AS> people to effect His will, well, that is certainly scriptural, just
as He
AS> had Israel broken up and dispersed for a time by using a ruler as His
AS> pawn, and whom a prophet warned it would be useless to resist.
RB> That's one incidence that fits your 'God supports the more benign
RB> culture' view. What of the thousands of incidences where ruthless,
RB> bloodthirsty cultures ran roughshod over relatively peaceful ones?
Again, I don't think God bothers most of the time. Most wars are probably
to him equally obscene on both sides. I think there might be a few times
He intervenes.
AS> But of all gods to make it...the god of Israel, which always made
AS> themselves seperate and unique and consequently small, suddenly acheiving
AS> prominence worldwide? That's almost a miracle in and of itself.
RB> Sometimes a series of small, unremarkable events culminate in a large,
RB> remarkable outcome. Besides, mankind was outgrowing it's former
RB> pantheon of gods and needed something a little more human. Something
RB> easier to relate to. A singular (more or less) god fit the bill
RB> nicely.
But of course, singular gods have been around a long time. Just ask that
phaoroah who tried to institute a single sun-god religion. To say nothing
of how Zoroasterism has a lesser number of gods than many.
... Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Jon Vandenberg
|Sub: Re: your father
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:21:50
EID:0817 207832a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 3156a39e
-=> Quoting Jon Vandenberg to George Rudzinski <=-
JV> -=| On 20 Mar 96 04:41, George Rudzinski said: |=-
GR> He couldn't exclude me from the echo he moderates because I had not
GR> violated any of his echo rules. But at the first chance he got he
GR> axed me from FidoNet access for no reason other than my name.
JV> You got "booted" from here for the same reason you were booted from
3
JV> or 4 other local systems, you present yourself as the "ultimate
JV> asshole" in an blatantly annoying manner.
Jon,
Rather difficult to get booted before I even posted anything isn't it?
Feel free to show which BBS I got booted from before Glen dropped BBS access
to FidoNet.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: All
|Sub: Jon Vandenberg
|Date: 24 Mar 96 06:32:10
EID:e366 20783400
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 3156a39f
-=> Quoting Jon Vandenberg to Dan Ceppa <=-
JV> -=| On 22 Mar 96 21:02, Dan Ceppa said: |=-
DC> . . . After all, access to BBS is not a right but a priviledge.
JV> Correct.
Apparently only a Christian privilege.
DC> However, if you have not violated those rules in a particular area,
DC> then his conscience and his integrity are both warped.
JV> perhaps. . .
Too bad Jon falls flat on his face with that perhaps.
DC> From the previous message you posted where your access was
DC> being cut, it was possibly because of Mark/Jim(whatever) Staal
DC> being annoyed with you.
JV> Our Net NEC is going to be moving out of state for school for a couple
JV> of years. (I think Glen has posted a little in this area) He is the
JV> only SysOp in our net that has allowed george ongoing BBS access in
JV> recent years.
Jon fails to point out that I only accessed Fidonet from Glen. As all of
you
folks know, my point of origin has always been BCH.
JV> I haven't the time or inclination to trade barbs with george in this
JV> echo, or any other one.
Yet this liar makes sure to try to cover his ass for booting me from his
system for doing nothing more than accessing it.
He is largely ignored in any of our local
JV> echos,
Makes one wonder why he booted me? If I'm ignored, why did he boot me?
I not
only didn't post on his system, but I'm ignored. So why boot me?
except when he catches someone new off guard. Even newbies
JV> catch on to him real quick.
Too bad Jon can't back that up with any posts.
DC> If it was because of this Echo solely, it's outright censorship.
JV> "if you knew georgie, like I know georgie. . ."
JV> Enjoy him Dan. . . he fits in here. Kinda anyways. . . ;-)
Too bad Jon doesn't understand that I'm not his to trade.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:29:09
EID:f3bd 207883a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 3156a39a
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> The other was a regiment of Russian female infantry. They were
GR> fearless and totally terrifying. In one attack where they were
GR> outnumbered three to one, they routed the German forces. As reported
GR> by an American military observer, after the battle they went back over
GR> the battlefield and mutilated all of the Germans that lay on the field
GR> of battle. The American observer reported that the spectacle made him
GR> sick.
NS> I found this fascinating. Can you recommend some books on either of
NS> these, preferably the former? Thanx.
Norbert,
Not off the top of my head. Give me a week and I'll see what I can dig
up.
Most likely it is sitting within arm's reach but that includes a good ton
of
stuff.
If I don't get back to you, remind me. I am quite absent minded. I can
tell
you what Avogadro's number is but I have trouble with what day of the week
it
is.
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: CC5
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:39:23
EID:ac11 207884e0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 3156a39b
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to George Rudzinski <=-
SA> A lone voice in the wilderness, George mournfully howled out "CC5"
GR> "It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the
GR> great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians,
GR> because Christians have the desire to build something. He is
GR> motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who
GR> have come into [our] institutions [today] are primarily termites.
GR> They are into destroying institutions that have been built by
GR> Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own
GR> traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and
GR> that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a
GR> godly fumigation." (PAT ROBERTSON, NEW YORK MAGAZINE, August 18,
GR> 1986)
SA> What is it about fundies and animal life?
Sue,
I think they are jealous of our opposable thumbs.
I guess Robert$on never
SA> saw the enormous and ingeniously built mounds that white ants DO
SA> build, especially those in the Aussie outback.
Not to mention the ecosystem would collapse without them.
SA> Not only are the mounds taller than a man,
Which really doesn't matter. What matters is how much taller than a termite
they are.
but they look like thin
SA> skyscrapers. They are positioned in such a way as to take best
SA> advantage of the sun in the morning, and keeping cool in the
SA> afternoon. Plus, they have "basements" in which water is stored,
SA> to air condition the mound after a fashion and keep it cool under
SA> the hot antepodian sun. These termites are actually some of the
SA> BEST builders in the non-human animal realm.
Without a doubt.
SA> Of course, to know this, he'd have to watch that "evil" network,
SA> PBS,
Of course you know you are going to hell for watching PBS.
or perhaps actually read a book besides the babble, or
SA> [horrors] actually go LOOK for himself, possibly leaving his own
SA> land and go amongst all them furreners and savages.
He has no problem going amongst savages, as long as they are digging diamonds
for him for slave wages.
SA> The complete and utter ignorance about the life around them is
SA> probably the most staggering aspect of Christians.
Well a wolf is evil for killing a cow, and a Quarter Pounder grows on trees.
Maybe these Christians have dined on too much London Broil.
Every time one
SA> of them says something completely stupid and uninformed, I lose
SA> just that much more respect for such a narrow-minded religious
SA> world view.
You are lucky. I no longer have any respect to lose.
george
... Fundies love computer sex, their machines always go down on them.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: CC8
|Date: 24 Mar 96 16:41:46
EID:69d0 20788520
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 3156a39c
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to George Rudzinski <=-
SA> A lone voice in the wilderness, George mournfully howled out "CC8"
GR> ˙˙˙"The potential savings in the national budgets from the elimination
GR> ˙˙˙of police, criminal courts, standing armies, pollution control
GR> ˙˙˙agencies, drug enforcement, and many poverty programs is almost
GR> ˙˙˙beyond calculation." ( PAT ROBERTSON, THE NEW WORLD ORDER (1991),
GR> ˙˙˙p. 231)
SA> Eh? I thought fundies were against drugs. Then again, drugs are
SA> the reason most people BECOME fundies in the first place, isn't
SA> it?
That and blunt head injuries.
george
... No gods were harmed during the production of this message.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: All
|Sub: Jon Vandenberg
|Date: 24 Mar 96 17:01:31
EID:e366 20788820
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 3156a39d
-=> Quoting Jon Vandenberg to George Rudzinski <=-
JV> -=| On 20 Mar 96 04:41, George Rudzinski said: |=-
GR> He couldn't exclude me from the echo he moderates because I had not
GR> violated any of his echo rules. But at the first chance he got he
GR> axed me from FidoNet access for no reason other than my name.
JV> You got "booted" from here for the same reason you were booted from
3
JV> or 4 other local systems, you present yourself as the "ultimate
JV> asshole" in an blatantly annoying manner.
Unfortunately Jon is still having a problem with the truth. I never even
posted a message on his system. Apparently my name is blatantly annoying.
And Jon fails to mention that before Glen stopped offering access to Fido
I
had only been booted from one BBS in 15 years. And the person who booted
me
wants to take Glen's place as NEC for the 228 area.
And apparently he can call me an asshole, and be a Christian in good standing
while I'm not even allowed to defend myself on his BBS. What an ironic
situation, I never used the word "asshole" on his BBS yet I get booted.
Yet
he claims the high moral ground by calling me an asshole.
JV> If you have a Policy 4 problem with my action, pursue it. . .
Damned fundie telling me what to do yet again.
Note how this fundie rarely posts in this echo until I point out in this
echo
the kind of crap I have to put up with. And folk please note that all the
while I was posting on Holysmoke from BCH I was also a participant on a
local
religious echo moderated by Jon. He never had a reason to ban me from
participation in the echo he moderates because of any violation of echo
rules.
Yet I am banned from his system because I logged on to it.
I wonder what Jon's next move will be to censor me, petition AT&T to cancel
my
phone access?
george
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 25 Mar 96 09:40:00
EID:80e4 20794d00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Anthony Grigor-scott <=-
>AG> I also pastor a tiny Church,
LB> Congregation of one?
Yes. And even then his congregation theologically disagrees
with itself.
... I Am A Charter Member Of Mikey Hardly's Truth Filter!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM GERMIQUET
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 25 Mar 96 09:55:00
EID:d4a2 20794ee0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
>>>DR> Liar.
>>JG> Oh so now you are an expert on the teachings and words
>>JG> of Jesus Christ?
>DR> So, you molest sheep, Jim?
>DR> You claimed to know what Jesus said, not what "Jesus Christ"
>DR> said. I pointed out that you are a liar, since Jesus had no
>DR> concept of what a "Christian" is.
JG> And Does[sic] the person claiming to be Christian adhere to
JG> the teachings of Jesus Christ?
Of course not: there was no such thing as a "Jesus Christ."
They only BELIEVE they "adhere to the teaching of Jesus."
JG> You know , your whole arguement has to do with claiming
JG> there is no Jesus,
Oh, =DO= try to keep up, Jim. I said there is no Jesus
because he is dead--- never have I said there WAS no Jesus.
Also, I said there was no "Jesus Christ," which is an
entirely different creature (i.e. mythological) than Jesus.
JG> and your wierd comment about molesting sheep ?
You are the fool who is begging the questions. Why do you
insist on constructing false positions that I do not claim,
then ascribe them to me as if they were mine, and then attack
them? Why are you masturbating in front of me?
I'll tell you why: you cannot attack the positions I =DO=
claims, because they are fortified by the truth. The best you
can hope for is to attack a position I do not defend, as that
is oh so much easier.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM GERMIQUET
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 25 Mar 96 09:57:00
EID:fb1c 20794f20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
>JG> It is just the experiences and thoughts of the learned
>JG> men of that day and age in history.
DR> They were ignorant, uneducated, superstitious imbicles who
DR> believed in magick and occult nonsense. The authors of the
DR> Bible have nothing of any value to say to us. Sorry.
JG> Maybe they were technologically ignorant, but they
JG> wrestled with exactly the same spiritual problems we
JG> deal with today.
They were ignorant, savage, superstitious louts. Their
concept of "spiritual problems" revolved around tribal and
feudal barbarity. Their evil knew no limits.
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 25 Mar 96 11:12:00
EID:eb1d 20795980
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Rice <=-
-> On 03-19-96 16:20, David Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
>>>DR> before, and I'll probably die from drowning. But what the
>>>DR> fuck.
>>DC> You missed out on that when you avoided Tahiti like the
>>DC> plague!
>DR> I'll bring lots of rum to deaden the pain.
DC> Hopefully you remember at least part of your trip...
That's what cameras are for. I hope to have two caneras: one
for slides, one for pictures. If I come back, I'll show the
slides at the Saddleback Community College, and at a few
local sailing clubs.
>>DC> my 14' C-Lark has the fittings ready to tow a beer barge
>>DC> to Australia. Maybe Sue Armstrong is ready to go.
>DR> There's nothing in Austrailia worth seeing. Hell, Mister
>DR> Laurie Appleton exists there!
DC> That's true... Maybe you could entice him into shark
DC> infested waters with some koala leaves.
I could entice him to the jaws of Jaws with a handful of
_Impact_ and _Acts_and_Facts[sic]_ pamphlets from the ICR
cult. He really gets off on those.
DC> However, the scenery, from the pictures I've seen is
DC> great, expecially down at the beaches.
The sceanery down at the beach where I live is nice, though
their boyfriends are awefully teritorial. . . .
>DR> cannot afford all of the equipment I'll need, if I buy a
>DR> boat. Any woman will do--- I've asked several already.
DC> With enough women, why do you need extra equipment?
If it were just me, I would not bother with safety devices.
The extra equipment is to help us get from here to there,
keeping us on the boat at the same time. It can get cold
enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey, so I also
need to buy a heater and foul-weather gear.
DC> BTW, do you need a recipe for my Wahini Sunrise? It'll
DC> work out really well with those kegs of rum of yours.
I like the idea. I'll trade the recipe for the Cement Slinger
that Captian Ron invented (you'll need a marline spike to
make it). It's slighly milder than the Pangalactic
Gargalblaster.
... "And the inspiration for the vagina was...?" -- Steve Q
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 25 Mar 96 11:27:00
EID:3e07 20795b60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to David Worrell <=-
>>MH> The following people make up the charter group of
>>MH> twits: Dan Ceppa, David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean
>>MH> McCullough, Steve Rose and David Worrell.
>DW> I'm in good company.
FR> It's a damn chame I wasn't listed first.
You merely need to try HARDER from now on.
What surprises me is that Steve Rose is damn near last on the
list. I would have placed him first or second.
... I Am A Charter Member Of Mikey Hardly's Truth Filter!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 25 Mar 96 11:31:00
EID:fbf9 20795be0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Roger Hunter <=-
FR> David Rice
FR> John Brawley
>>DR> Just how =DOES= someone add gods to Evolutionary Theory?
>RH> OOoooooo...Are YOU gonna be SORRY you asked!!
FR> }:-} I can't _WAIT_ to see it. Then John can work on
FR> adding deities to mathematics!
I'm still waiting for the answer. Maybe John could not come
up with one.
Since no one knows the properties of the gods (electrical
charge, chemical bonds, viscosity, temperature, etc.), it
seems utterly impossible to me to include them in Evolutionary
Theory. Maybe John can do so.
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 25 Mar 96 11:45:00
EID:a2c0 20795da0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Damien Wellman to Mark Craig <=-
MC> God works in strange ways.
DW> Or he's insane, more likely.
... I Am A Charter Member Of Mikey Hardly's Truth Filter!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: DAVID RICE
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: 'No True Christian...'
|Date: 25 Mar 96 11:49:00
EID:d52d 20795e20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Sean Mccullough <=-
SM> AT least you HAD Scotch.
SM> All I had was a quart of Jim Beam...........
ML> So you were doubly blessed...
You must have meant to type "Doubtfully blessed."
... I Am A Charter Member Of Mikey Hardly's Truth Filter!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:00:27
EID:4d14 20796800
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3156d27d
Marty Leipzig said ""No True Christian..."" to Sean McCullough,
adding:
SM> All I had was a quart of Jim Beam...........
ML> So you were doubly blessed...
So, welcome back from the land of vodka!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:04:23
EID:9418 20796880
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3156d27e
REPLY: 1:252/107 3154856d
Selena Kerr said "The end?" to Daryl Alopaeus,
adding:
SK> So what happens to all those
SK> who are not believers.. like people who are not christians?
They continue on in a state of sanity.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: THE END?
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:06:24
EID:ca86 207968c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3156d27f
REPLY: 1:252/107 31548713
Selena Kerr said "THE END?" to Judith Bandsma,
adding:
JB> Yes, Selena, even the bit that is usually interpreted as nuclear war.
JB> We already had that also...and in the (far) east, as predicted. Where
JB> was the first place that nuclear killing capability was demonstrated
JB> publicly?
JB> If you MUST read Nostradamus, get one of the translations WITHOUT
JB> commentary or interpretation and work it out for yourself. You will
JB> find that it is actually pretty silly and without someone else to put
JB> THEIR ideas to it, you can come up with things that are equally as
JB> valid...if you don't put it down first, saying 'this makes absolutely
JB> no sense at all'.
JB> Grow a brain, girl.
SK> What the hell is that supposed to mean.. grow a brain? That was
SK> pretty ignorant of you. All I am doing is asking the opinions of
SK> others on these INTERPRETATIONS of nostradamus. No where in my
SK> message did i say: Insult me, please. Why don't you grow a life.
Is anyone else here waiting for the new line of "Kerr
Grotesque" greenware to come out of South Carolina? Life
sized, and featuring three newly torn assholes!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:06:24
EID:9418 207968c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3156d280
REPLY: 1:252/107 31548766
Selena Kerr said "The end?" to David Worrell,
adding:
DW> Yes, Selena, the world will end at 11:59 pm on December 31st, 1999.
DW> How do I know, you ask? Because I'm the guy with his finger on the
DW> button up here in Cheyenne Mountain.
SK> Cool.. so I guess now that I am talking to you I can use my charms to
SK> persuade you not to do it! (:
From what I have seen so far, your charms are not
sufficient to lure a sex-starved hermit three inches off a
rock ledge, but Worrell is pretty desperate (engineers often
are), so we shall have to await developments.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:06:24
EID:53bb 207968c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3156d281
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 29919375
Sean McCullough said "ALLEGORY" to Al Schroeder,
adding:
SM> And, until Mikey either honestly bugs out or eliminates his arrogantly
SM> demanding that his belief system be accorded respect that it flatly
SM> does NOT deserve, you'll see more pseudonyms and AKA's hurled at
SM> Mikey. As Walter Brennan used to say, "I gotta million
SM> of 'em!",
If Walter Brennan said this, he first stole it from
Jimmy Durante.
SM> ! Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
Showoff!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:06:25
EID:e4b4 207968c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3156d282
REPLY: 1:123/318 56f35620
Mark Craig said "ZOG" to Preston Simpson,
adding:
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Craig ZOG wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> MC> I'm beginning to believe that Pat Robertson and his Christian
PS> MC> Coalition, are a Zionist front organization.
PS> Nobody cares what you believe, as you are a moron of the
PS> first water.
MC> Your "mama" is calling you.
And thine barks for thee. She's probably in heat again.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 25 Mar 96 18:32:44
EID:397e 20799400
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3156e6f7
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 1446954b
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Dies solis March 24 1996, Dixit Jesse Jones ad Dan Ceppa:
DC> JJ>> yourself. You do not press any buttons. You lack the
DC> JJ>> intelligence to do so. You are a minor annoyance.
DC>> So, Jesse, just how long did it take for you an Mikey to
DC>> collaborate on this latest venture of yours?
JJ> Has Steve Q possessed your body again, Dan? I have not the
JJ> slightest idea what you are talking about.
You're both megalomaniacs who feel that the echo participants will slit
their wrists and moan if you leave. Dan was merely pointing that out to
you. Unfortunately, he used words that you don't find on Sesame Street,
and that may have added to your confusion, O Prince of Dumbness. Let's
call your bluff: -Leave.- We'll have a few chuckles over your demise, certainly,
but you don't hold a candle to some of the past entertainment we had here.
Sorry.
Why do you stay here? If Hardy doesn't like it here, he too can fuck off
and leave. Nobody here twists your arms to stay, yet you both stick around
and whine about how much you hate this echo. For what seems to be the thousandth
time, why do you stay? To combat the evil? -What- evil?
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Leon Askin Fan Club - 214/412-8457 (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 25 Mar 96 18:32:04
EID:a26a 20799400
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3156e6c5
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, DAVID!
Lunae dies March 25 1996, Dixit DAVID RICE ad FREDRIC RICE:
DR> ... I Am A Charter Member Of Mikey Hardly's Truth Filter!
You can use an alias on my system. If Staal can do adopt a ludicrous amount
of aliases, so can you.
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Leon Askin Fan Club - 214/412-8457 (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: EPISTEMOLOGY
|Date: 24 Mar 96 20:49:56
EID:8d92 2078a620
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3155fea3
Here's what Roger Hunter said to Lee Woofenden about EPISTEMOLOGY:
RH> No, it does not demonstrate anything about the fundamental nature
RH> of matter. But it does get rid of your metaphysical argument.
LW> What is my metaphysical argument? And how does Hector's experiment get
LW> rid of it?
RH> By getting rid of you if you are foolish enough to try it.
Very funny. However, this argument was around long before I was born
and it will be around long after I die.
RH> Then I stand corrected.
LW> In that you are almost unique among the atheists on this echo. ;-)
RH> And among the religious side as well. Possibly totally unique, as I
RH> don't recall any creationist admitting an error.
The only people on either side that I've heard admitting error are the non-fundy
ones. But that's to be expected.
LW> However, there are people here demanding some kind of strict,
LW> scientific demonstration that things such as God and spirit exist. I
RH> You exaggerate. All we have asked for is physical evidence, not
RH> absolute proof.
You exaggerate what I wrote above. I didn't say "absolute proof." I said
"some kind of strict, scientific demonstration." Anything less than that
will be promptly rejected as inconclusive.
LW> replied, essentially, by saying that you cannot give any kind of
LW> strict, scientific demonstration that _matter_ exists--so people in
LW> glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Most of 'em haven't gotten the
LW> point yet.
RH> Buul, Lee. At the classical level, matter exists, no matter what
RH> anyone thinks about it. At the quantum level, no matter exists at all
RH> it seems. But you still can't walk thru walls.
You're making my argument for me, Roger: Classical scientific theory says
matter exists, quantum theory seems to say it doesn't. And all we have is
our own experience that walls seem solid to us. Scientifically, we can't
say whether that's because matter exists or because we are some sort of
energy fields.
LW> If you want to say, "I'm not interested in knowing about that," you
LW> certainly have a right to close your eyes to such issues. However, it
LW> would not behoove you to then turn around and demand that those who
LW> include God and spirit in their "classical reality in which they live
LW> and die" to provide demonstrations of the existence of those things
LW> when you are not willing to ask the same questions and provide the same
LW> demonstrations about your own conception of the "classical reality in
LW> which we live and die."
RH> More smoke. I can ignore quantum reality because I live at the
RH> classical level. I can ignore any God who has no classical presence.
But does not some of our science and technology depend on quantum reality?
Is quantum reality irrelevant? If so, why do you grant it any more credence
than you grant to God? If not, how can you ignore it?
LW> It is far more "classical," BTW, to include God and spirit in one's
LW> conception of reality than to exclude them.
RH> Different meaning of classical. I'm using it in the physics sense,
RH> where it is distinguished from the quantum level.
Okay. Understood.
--Lee
... Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 25 Mar 96 09:52:50
EID:21bc 20794e80
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3156c287
REPLY: 1:116/19 019FEE48
Here's what Al Schroeder said to Lee Woofenden about THE PATTERN OF THE
BIBLE:
AS> Yes, and the intolerance...on BOTH sides...is equally grating.
If there's one thing I've learned here on HolySmoke, it's that atheists
can be just as intolerant as fundamentalist religionists. It may sound odd,
but this was a surprise to me. I somehow thought that being without religion,
atheists would not have a basis for the prejudice against those who don't
agree with them that is so characteristic of fundamentalists of all stripes.
I was wrong. _Way_ wrong. That is a valuable lesson for me.
--Lee
... FUNDY ATHEISTS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: christology
|Date: 25 Mar 96 10:01:21
EID:1cee 20795020
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3156c288
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64319b45
Here's what Martin Goldberg said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
LW> It amazes me that you seem to have no concept of the development
LW> of ethical systems, and that you would be so anachronistic as to
LW> think that 20th century concepts of intellectual property rights
LW> would apply several millennia ago.
MG> And why wouldn't they? Considering the fact that the laws of this
MG> country and others are based on common sense, which was around long
MG> before your religion, why would you doubt thta folks considered it
MG> wrong to steal 10,000 yers ago.
MG> When someone took something thta did not belong to them, they were
MG> massacred. It was tht simple. The laws have not chnged, just the
MG> punishement.
We're talking about _intellectual_ property rights, Martin. Those are a
relatively recent arrival on the scene.
Sure, people thought it was wrong to steal physical property 10,000 years
ago. They had no such thought about "stealing" other people's ideas. Even
now intellectual property rights are controversial in some quarters. Many
people who believe it is wrong to steal someone's car have no problem pirating
software, videos, and tapes. I've read articles by freeware authors who
believe software should not be sold nor even copyrightable.
We're not talking about stealing thy neighbor's ox nor his ass. We're talking
about using his words and ideas without mentioning where those words and
ideas came from. Up till quite recently--within the last few centuries--that
was common practice. Among well-educated people, if the matter was given
any thought at all it was assumed that hearers and readers would be familiar
with the thinkers of the past and present and would know where ideas came
from. Among less educated uneducated people, the matter generally was not
an issue.
Usually there were only wrangles when there was a dispute over who came
up with an idea first--such as the well-known rivalry between Newton and
Leibniz over who developed calculus first. However, by Newton's time, the
idea of intellectual property rights was already being developed.
--Lee
... Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Defining Death
|Date: 25 Mar 96 10:40:06
EID:95d4 20795500
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3156c289
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 152a9f72
Here's what Rick Mcfarlane said to Lee Woofenden about Defining Death:
LW> Yet that person is still biologically alive. Absence of measurable
LW> brain activity may (or may not) be a good _legal_ definition of death.
LW> But it cannot be used to reliably define biological death.
RM> There was a piece on one of those news magazine shows (20/20? Prime
RM> Time Live? I'm not sure which one) that followed a woman through an
RM> operation for an aneurism (sp?). They chilled her body to a very low
RM> temperature, and stopped her heart, (to get her blood pressure to 0
so
RM> they could fix the aneurism). She had no measurable brain activity,
or
RM> heartbeat for quite a while (I don't remember exactly, but I believe
it
RM> was over half an hour). She was dead by any current definition. And
RM> then they brought her back, undamaged.
Interesting story. I thought that sort of thing happened from time to time--I
just hadn't heard of any recent cases of it, so I couldn't say for sure
when I was writing that message.
RM> This is not a common procedure, but she wasn't the first. The
RM> reporter asked about how do you know whether she's dead or not for
RM> that period when there are absolutely no signs of life, and the doctor
RM> shrugged and said, "If she comes back, then she was alive, I guess."
That's the "permanence" definition of death. But for practical and legal
purposes, the absence of heartbeat and absence of measurable brain activity
are more common definitions. They are also a part of the permanence definition,
because what is permanent in that definition is the absence of those types
of physical life signs.
LW> Looks like it's not so easy to define death after all...
RM> No it certainly isn't. But then again, life is not so easy to define
RM> either, so what should we expect?
No simplistic answers, that's what we should expect. ;-) Which is why I
am suspicious of simplistic answers about almost anything--especially the
nature of reality--whether they come from a materialist or a theist perspective.
--Lee
... Be not simply good; be good for something. --Thoreau
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Philosophy
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:21:29
EID:cf8c 20796aa0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31572CE4
KM> Don't ask the easy ones, do you? It's a hard one to answer; on the
My parents got awful tired of my questions. Maybe it's because these are
the standard type I've asked all my life.
KM> onehand, as I'm not someone else, I can't really determine what would
KM> harmthem; OTOH, some people have really strange definitions of harm.
Communication. Ask, and listen to what you are told. If the person is honest
with themselves and others, it spares a lot of the problems.
Second question, how do you differentiate between harm and hurt?
KM> the end, I'm
KM> the only person that can make this sort of decision, as I can't get
KM> intoanyone else's head; this is one reason I have a tendency to risk
But you can "get into" other's heads. That's what we're doing right now.
Learning to communicate and discover what the other holds important.
KM> toprotect others; I know what harms and hurts me, but I don't know
KM> aboutothers.
Which of these statements seems to hold the better ethics in light of our
conversation?
1. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
2 Do unto others as they would have you do to them.
KM> Aye. I prefer a momentary hurt to lifelong harm.
This one too I agree with. The question, is how to differentiate between
the two.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DAYS
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:28:07
EID:b221 20796b80
MSGID: 1:352/266 31572CE5
MM> No, I think it's a cube root.
AS> But...wouldn't that be smaller...? Oh, well, I get the meaning
AS> anyway. But if you were TRULY masochistic, as your handle implies,
AS> you would be
AS> cheering the bad days, wouldn't you?
Actually. some bad days I do cheer. If they create changes in the schedule
or activities so that lots of good days follow. (Sneaky form of masochism.)
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Perspectives
|Date: 25 Mar 96 13:54:37
EID:1caf 20796ec0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31572CE6
AS> the Canaannites et al, but still, in one religion, dying in battle
AS> is REQUIRED to earn Valhalla, whereas in the other asking
Ever hear of the Christian armor listed by Paul? Do you think it is literal
armor for a literal battle? Perspectives vary, but I see Valhalla as reward
for fighting the fight and winning the ract that Paul discussed. Right
living is cast as fighting the good fight. When I look into myth, I usually
find that as much is to be gained by realizing that this is a teaching story.
AS> forgiveness of sins is required. In others, reaching bliss means
The sacrificial king who dies that his land flourishes is not that far from
the king whose blood saves the world.
AS> We very well might be arguing over perspective. But...I used to,
AS> on a local Fidonet echo, get into long protracted arguments with a
AS> Wiccan concerning this..he thought ALL religions are aspects of the
AS> same God. EVEN though it would make God seriously schizophrenic.
Hey, just reading the Bible I find a bit of schizophrenia. "Thou shalt not
kill." and "Kill them all" comes from the same source in the old testament.
But being able to learn from every source I can, and decide which ones lead
to ethics I choose to have in my life is an enjoyment of the study of religion/mythology
for me.
The difference only seem so schizophrenic when you attempt to claim that
any one source is the only source of knowledge or enlightenment.
AS> elephant analogy, but if one of the blind men comes to me and
AS> asserts that the being he felt has EVERY quality an animal can have,
AS> because of
AS> the differing answers, I think he would be as wrong, or even more
AS> wrong, then the others.
If that blind man was saying that all of the other blind men had experienced
a true aspect of diety, and that making them all fit into the description,
I'd say he was wise. If he said, that people who have never experienced
elephant in any manner could state an aspect of elephant and it too would
be correct, I can see where the difficulty could arise. However, I would
probably ask him how he intigrated the perspectives into a total picture.
(Doing so, I would probably learn as much about that individual as I would
about his/her view of elephant.)
Like I have said before.... I'm curious. I ask lots of questions.
AS> They are intolerant. But I make the comparison with science quite
The intolerance is part of my life exposure that makes that path a little
more than uncomfortable for me. A "My way or the Highway" attitude is one
I choose not to exhibit.
AS> exclusionist, intolerant views...yet they are the right attitude to
That remains to be seen. I find intolerant views usually are results of
lack of understanding.
I enjoyed the vieww of scientific theory developing out of philosophies
from religions of the past. Thanks.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [2]
|Date: 25 Mar 96 11:53:28
EID:fdd9 20795ea0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 644ac4b7
REPLY: 1:207/212 7ffe86e4
On Mar 19 20:35 96, Karen Davis of 1:207/212 wrote:
KM>> You do not think that God could inspire those? Besides, I
KM>> do not believe that every Bible is infallible, there are
KM>> many that I would not be caught dead reading.
KD> Oh are you another King James nut?
Macabee is a five pound can of King James Nuts (psalted).
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Waco Amnesia
|Date: 25 Mar 96 12:16:52
EID:b6ec 20796200
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 644b1e29
On Mar 20 14:17 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
TL>> Should the
JH>>˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙/---------\
JH>>˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙/----------------\========================
JH>> ###### / Waco or bust! )
JH>>˙˙/------------------------------------------------------\
JH>> / ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
JH>> () ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
JH>> () **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ()
JH>> () ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ()
JH>>˙˙()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
TL>> drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
TL>> they 'were just following orders?'
JH>> Tanks alot...
NS> I'll have you know that I laughed hard enough to pass coca
NS> cola through my nose, spraying the monitor and my desk. As
NS> it is, I guess I'm lucky I didn't pass the can too. ROFLMAO
NS> doesn't _even_ do justice to it . . . I may need you to do a
NS> healing! };)
Have you noticed that TLP is running out of steam? I'm seeing less
and less from him.
What I can't understand is just what TLP expects to accomplish with
his messages. As far as I can tell no one in the echo holds the BATF
faultless. And while it was shameful that the Treasury department's
internal investigation was (initially) the only official
investigation of the tragedy, there has since been Congressional
hearings. And while they were a highly partisian affair conducted by
a politically rabid House ready for a witchhunt, they returned NO
indictments.
TLP's real objection seems to be not in how the BATF acted, but in
that they acted at all. To him the possession of large quanties of
ammunition, automatic weapons, grenade lauchers and homemade
explosives isn't a public safety issue. And such a setting is a
perfectly safe environment in which to raise children.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Kenneth the neo-atheist
|Date: 25 Mar 96 17:23:36
EID:1833 20798ae0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 644dcaa7
On Mar 18 16:05 96, DAVID RICE of 1:124/9005 wrote:
DR> Satan is not "also known as" Lucifer. Satan is a totally
DR> different god than Lucifer, with his own aspects and
DR> attributes (to use the technical terms).
Then how come you never see the two of them together?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 25 Mar 96 17:58:23
EID:79fe 20798f40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 644e290e
REPLY: 1:116/19 02319EB0
On Mar 23 09:03 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
MC>> I see where Farrakhan has been brought before the Knesset, USA.
MC>> It appears that the Jews are trying to crucify him. Well,
MC>> that's nothing new. He needs to join with the militia, and
MC>> declare economic war against the Establishment. United we
MC>> stand, divided we fall.
AS> Anyone catch the Orwellian "doublethink" here? Quoting, "United
AS> we stand, divided we fall" while trying to divide Jews from the
AS> mainstream of American thinking, and holding up Farrakhan's
AS> extremist views (and for that matter, paramilitary militias such
AS> as were exposed after the OKC thing) as something to be admired,
AS> and to buck the "Establishment"...which, by definition, must be
AS> the majority.
I never got that far... the idea of Farrakhan joining a militia was
enough to floor me.
And while I suspect that some "networking" may actually exist
between characters like Farrakhan and David Duke (whatever you think
of them, you'll be making a grave mistake to think them stupid.
They've both demonstrated a genius for manipulating their followers
and the media), there may (or may not) be some sharing of information and
resources between such extremes you'll never
see an open collaboration.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 25 Mar 96 22:10:01
EID:b6de 2079b140
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64506bb1
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31558665
On Mar 24 15:13 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
JH>> I'm sure they'd be releaved if people marched on Nashville or
JH>> Kansas City for a change and let them deal with the
DW> I'm sure you're relieved to know that the Oilers are coming
DW> to Nashville. Now we get to deal with the traffic tie-ups
DW> caused by no-neck football fans driving to see the game in
DW> person. UT football season fucks traffic up at this end of
DW> the state bad enough as it is.
If you ever decide that you don't want to keep the Oilers,
you still have to keep Bud Adams.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Don't crush that geologist, hand me the bottle.
|Date: 26 Mar 96 02:45:36
EID:73c0 207a15a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6452f32e
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6428f530
Recent Ann Landers in Memphis:
Dear Ann: I am writing you with a problem. My wife has custody of
our seven children. They were awarded to her when she divorced me
for desertion. My mother has been confined to a mental institution
for insanity since I was 3 years old. I have 2 brothers. One
is a petroleum geologist and the other is awaiting electrocution
for murder. My 2 sisters are prostitutes and my father is into
selling drugs. Recently I met a girl who has been released from
prison where she served time for smothering her illegitimate child.
I love this girl very much and want to marry her.
My problem is this: Should I tell her about my brother the
geologist?
Miserable in Memphis!!!!
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 26 Mar 96 02:53:00
EID:2226 207a16a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6453228b
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8948438A
On Mar 22 08:45 96, Michael Hardy of 1:3625/470 wrote:
MH> -=> Quoting 3b1e4a59cf to Michael Hardy <=-
3b>> ! Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter!
MH> Wasn't one of the frequent criticisms of the Jim Staal
MH> Collection that he used pseudonyms in order to circumvent
MH> twit filters? :)
MH> If it's not going to work any better than this, I might as
MH> well turn it off. :)
Add the digits 0 through 9 to your filter. That will eliminate the
'hex' names. (I assume whatever software you use allows you to
distinguish whether the offending string is found in the To, From or
Subject fields or in the message body. If not, find more
sophisticated software.)
BroJimStaal's name changing didn't make him unfilterable. Most of
his monikers contained either "Brother", "Staal" or "Jim". Of those
three strings, two are not in common use as names. The third (Jim)
could be used so long as there weren't any other "Jim"s or "Jimmy"s
on the echo who were worth reading.
I might note that I filtered out Staal not because I found him
objectionable, but that he was verbose and redundant. It was a
simple matter of limited resources (like disk space and reading
time). The Brothers Aroz are frequently filtered here due to the
same limitations.
If you're interested in just filtering out Sean McChainsaw, add
"slack" or "124/" (include the slash) to your filter.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Craig
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 25 Mar 96 22:44:00
EID:8d12 2079b580
PID: RA 2.5.g1 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56f5bf60
REPLY: 3:711/933 3155ac8a
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
The fall of the Roman Empire was the advent of the millennium. The ¨attack
on Israel is the end of the world.
---
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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PATH: 123/319 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US BANS ABORITONSPEAK ON
|Date: 25 Mar 96 06:51:00
EID:97f5 20793660
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> No, I already told you: guess who.
AS> D'oh! "Tommy can you hear me..."
See, Dan. You have absolutely nothing to worry about from my intervention.
... Never argue with a Skunk, a Mule, or Dan Ceppa.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 25 Mar 96 06:55:00
EID:d7b6 207936e0
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> I was hoping to get at least four more posts back from him on
DC> that!
Not to worry. I saw at least one more from Al in this packet. I would say
that you and he have got the '90s version of the old Abbott and Costello
routine going...'Guess Who's on First'.
... I agreed to suspend my disbelief, not hang it until dead.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: FRIENDS
|Date: 25 Mar 96 06:58:00
EID:c410 20793740
-=> Quoting David Johnston to Preston Simpson <=-
DJ> Oh come on. When has the "privilege" of displaying one's stupidity
DJ> here ever been revoked for anyone for any reason here?
Less than a year ago when we had one who flatly told the moderator that
he wouldn't stop altering people's quotes. He made the 4th person to be
bounced from HolySmoke.
... Make sure your words are soft ones. You may have to eat them one day.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: DOUBLE FEATURES.
|Date: 25 Mar 96 07:14:00
EID:d288 207939c0
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Dan Ceppa <=-
ML> "What if they gave a war and nobody came" and "They shoot
ML> horses, don't they?"
So, when do we get the next installment of 'Leipzig's Travels'?
BTW, my oldest son (AF) just got orders to Turkey. He will be there by
October. Any suggestions as to some fun things to do while there? (They
have 2 little girls, so make it clean )
... What's all this fuss about endangered feces?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: THE END?
|Date: 25 Mar 96 07:17:00
EID:69ea 20793a20
-=> Quoting Selena Kerr to Judith Bandsma <=-
SK> others on these INTERPRETATIONS of nostradamus. No where in my message
SK> did i say: Insult me, please. Why don't you grow a life.
You started posting in HolySmoke. That is as good as wearing a sign that
says 'kick me when I say something stupid'. You said something stupid, you
got kicked.
You might want to read more than just your personal mail to understand what
THIS echo is all about. What it AIN'T is feel-good bunnies and light and
everyone be nice. What it is, is zero tolerance for fruit-and-nutcake ideas
like the one you espouse...Nostradamus 'said' it so it must be true because
it's written right here in this book. That's as circular...and as stupid...
as the fundies who claim that god is true because the bible says so and
the
bible is true because it is the word of god. Run around in circles like
that and all you get is dizzy.
Grow a brain, girl. Learn to think for yourself. While you're at it, grow
a thicker skin. NOBODY here is going to respect you or your ideas until
you
earn said respect...it is NOT automatically given.
You may now take step 2, which is usually to complain to the moderator.
His
name is Styx Allum.
... Ignorance has great job security.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: rabies shots anyone?
|Date: 24 Mar 96 07:46:00
EID:9a05 20783dc0
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> How about getting this clown to post here?
I've been trying. Unfortunately, those posts were the last I've seen
from him. We've been having almost as much trouble with SCNet as we have
with FIDO. No posts at all for 2 days now.
My last post to Keller was simply to ask if he wanted a referral to a
good doctor, that he was one sick puppy.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/19 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Stuart Lumgair
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 24 Mar 96 08:06:00
EID:76f2 207840c0
-=> Quoting Stuart Lumgair to Jesse Jones <=-
SL> end is poor, so I was wondering if you had recieved it ?
I don't know about Jesse, but this is the first I've seen from you since
you said you were back.
... *BOOM!* Intel OUTSIDE!
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/19 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Re: Bible
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:50:59
EID:14d5 20777640
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Brad Jackson <=-
SM> I obviously understand it MUCH better than you do. You still believe.
SM> I don't.
Hello Sean.
You sound like a very learned man, and yet you still don't
believe in Jesus Christ. You said you have read the bible many
times and yet you don't understand the meaning of the words. God
told us about people like yourself.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they
seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they
[understand]. Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy
of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not
understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Matthew
13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and ears are
dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with eyes and hear with ears, and
should understand with heart, and should be converted, and I
should heal them.
Yet you say that I am a fool for believing. Jesus said other
wise and I value his opinion more then yours!
Matthew 13:16 But blessed your eyes, for they see: and your
ears, for they hear. Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That
many prophets and righteous have desired to see
which ye see, and have not seen ; and to hear
which ye hear, and have not heard .
Maybe Sean go back and re-read the bible and pray.
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 244/108 100 400 250/99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Jesus Christ is God
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:00
EID:ceee 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
SM> Brad, Dan doesn't need to do ANYTHING to establish his point. He
SM> DENIES the existence of your God. You CLAIM that said God exists.
SM> YOU have the burden of evidence here -- ALL OF IT. Dan, being the
SM> denying one, is ASSUMED correct until evidenced otherwise.
SM> Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour.
Hi Sean.
I don't understand where you get this idea that I have to prove
anything! I know God he is my personal saviour. That is all I need
to know.
Now onto Mark 16:15-18 do you not believe that what was said is
true? Mark 16:15 tells us to do what I am doing spreading the
Gospel.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 Lets you know if you don't believe the Gospel what will
happen.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:17 Tells us of the signs that follow someone that has
received the Holy Ghost.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my
name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
You thought I forgot about Mark 16:18, well I didn't here is my
answer to what everone has been asking me about this including you.
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly
thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and
they shall recover.
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not
[tempt] the Lord thy God. Matthew 22:18 But Jesus perceived their
wickedness, and said, Why [tempt] ye me, hypocrites? Luke 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not
[tempt] the Lord thy God. Luke 20:23 But he perceived their
craftiness, and said unto them, Why [tempt] ye me?
Is this enough for your silly question?
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:01
EID:4ac2 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
PS> I stand for plenty of things. It isn't my fault that you consider what
PS> I do stand for to be pointless or non-existent; that's merely an
PS> indication of lack of attention on your part.
I have to disagree with you here. Everything you do is pointless
unless it is done for the Glory of God!
I pay attention, but only to the word of God.
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:01
EID:4f5c 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
MB> If you think that's why you don't get any more messages, you're
MB> seriously deluded. You don't get messages because we dislike
MB> being preached at. If you can't get around to a conversational
MB> style and get off your pulpit, you'll keep living your your
MB> dreamworld regarding your lack of mail.
You mean to say that you don't like the word of God? Are you saying
that I shouldn't preach the word of God to everyone?
Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, speak ye in light:
and what ye hear in the ear, [preach] ye upon the housetops.
Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, [preach], saying, The kingdom of heaven
is at hand. Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the
world, and [preach] the gospel to every creature.
As you can see I have been told by a higher power then you to preach
the Gospel, of Jesus Christ!
MB> That's garbage! Many of us have torn the Bible apart verse-by
MB> verse, and would gladly do so again. It's full of crap, and
MB> we have amply demonstrated it is. Live in your dreamworld,
MB> fundy.
Did you forget who you were talking too, my name isn't fundy?
Maybe you should read the bible with a open heart next time! Summit
to his will, and gain understanding.
Brad
... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: 1 god
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:02
EID:e86d 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Brad Jackson <=-
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Brad Jackson Re: 1 god wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> If you had read the bible and followed the plan of salvation laid
BJ> out for us in the book of Acts, then turned away from God;
BJ> You are a fool!
PS> MAT 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
PS> without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever
PS> shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but
PS> whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
PS> Break out the asbestos suit, Brad.
Hi Preston.
First off I am not angry with you. Second you are not my
brother, because you are not a Christian. No I was not calling
you a name, rather I was pointing out what you are, a fool.
This is like calling a tree a tree. If the shoe fits wear it!
Mark 16:16 He that [believeth] and is baptized shall be saved; but
he that [believeth] not shall be damned.
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Always with me
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:02
EID:39f1 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Brad Jackson <=-
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson to All <=-
BJ> Hello.
BJ> I like to post in this area (Religious Debates), to show the
BJ> young people not to fear (satan) and his deciples.
GR> Brad,
GR> Mark 16:15-18. Belly up to the bar, I'll pour.
GR> Show the young people not to fear your Bible.
GR> Talk is cheap.
Hello George.
I already answered a post like this today. I will not tempt
God, just because of a foolish post.
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not
[tempt] the Lord thy God.
By the way I don't go to bars.
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Always with me
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:03
EID:603c 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Brad Jackson <=-
-> On 03-16-96 11:44, Brad Jackson got back to All
DC> It's pretty easy, Brad: Stop believing in your boogey man. Now,
DC> put your night light on and try and get some sleep.
Hi Dan
You know Dan I don't need a night light! For Jesus is the light
of the world. So I do not have to walk in darkness, for he is with
me always.
Psalms 23 A Psalm of David. The LORD my shepherd; I shall not
want. {2} He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me
beside the still waters. {3} He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in
the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. {4} Yea, though I
walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil:
for thou with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. {5}
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. {6} Surely
goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I
will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Praise God
Brad
... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Re: Better then This!
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:03
EID:db54 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Brad Jackson <=-
DM> Investing heavily in a Centigrade thermometer to make his IQ
DM> higher than his temperature, Brad Jackson said "Better then
DM> This!" to Dan Ceppa, adding:
DM> Name one "true satan lover" here, apart from Asmodiddly.
DM> Got any evidence for this satan thing yet--any evidence
DM> distinguishable from the workings of human imagination, that
DM> is?
Hi Don.
I don't have all satan lovers written down Don, but they know
who they are! Because if you don't believe in Jesus you must
believe in evil. Everyone that doesn't believe the gospel of Jesus
Christ is dammed. It is as simple as that! If you there fore are
going to Hell you must love evil, because if you didn't you would
search for God. And if you were searching truly for God you would
find him.
Matthew 7:7 Ask , and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall
[find]; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Matthew 7:14 Because
strait the gate, and narrow the way, which leadeth unto
life, and few there be that [find] it.
It isn't to late Don.
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Bible
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:04
EID:8ea4 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> By your last paragraph I am not sure what side you are on? I
BJ> hope you are not one of those, Sheet waring fags that migrated
PS> ^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^
PS> Make note of this.
Preston I said I hoped he wasn't a fag. God does not want fags, I
am only stating the truth, written in the bible.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not [lie with] mankind, as with
womankind: it abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also [lie with] mankind, as he lieth with a
woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely
be put to death; their blood upon them.
BJ> up here to Canada, from down south! You must know the ones I
BJ> mean, they claim to be Christians but go around Hating everbody!
PS> ^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
PS> You're one of those, aren't you?
No I don't hate you Preston, I feel sorry for you though.
BJ> But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
PS> ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^
How do you know I don't pray for those that curse me?
PS> Pity. You're not doing what your god told you to. You hypocrite.
How do you know this to be true?
BJ> Don't sit on the fence David! Speak out for what you believe in.
PS> I believe that jerks such as yourself are a threat to the species and
PS> should, at the very least, be treated like the fools that they are.
Again, Preston my name is Brad not jerk. You folks have a very bad
memory. By the way I have not threatened anyone, so please quit
lieing.
Brad
... File not found, I'll load something *I* think is interesting.
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: access
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:04
EID:2a88 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Brad Jackson <=-
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Brad Jackson Re: Friends wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> I am sorry to hear about your so called friends! First off, this
BJ> is the religious debate echo and I should exercise my rights to
PS> The important point, bunky, is that you have *no* right to preach
PS> here. It is a privilege, not a right.
Hi Preston, this is Brad Jackson, not bunky! I am afraid I really
disagree with you on this point Preston, I do have a right
concidering God told us to preach the Gospel.
Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, speak ye in light:
and what ye hear in the ear, [preach] ye upon the housetops.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
[preach] the gospel to every creature.
Go and preach in all the world. God wants me to do it. I take
orders from him not you Preston.
Brad
... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Satan's Disciples
|Sub: Re: satan runs
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:05
EID:ad9f 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Satan's Disciples to Brad Jackson <=-
SD> No Brad...we just don't think that you're worth the time.
Hello there, what ever you are.
I do agree I am not worth the time of day, but the gospel I
preach is not my own. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature.
I am guessing that even includes you!
Brad
... SENILE.COM found . . . Out Of Memory . . .
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Love of God
|Date: 23 Mar 96 14:51:05
EID:8639 20777660
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Brad Jackson <=-
KD> Messages to you have dropped off for two reasons:
KD> 1. I haven't seen many messages FROM you.
KD> 2. The messages I see FROM you are not intelligent enough to reply to.
Hi Karen.
Yes at times I can become farely busy. But I am back to spread
the word of God to you once more, like he commanded us to do.
What would you like to know about Karen?
Lets start with:
Acts 2:36-42 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both
Lord and Christ. {37} Now when they heard , they were pricked
in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles,
Men brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto
them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus
Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
the Holy Ghost. {39} For the promise is unto you, and to your
children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord
our God shall call. {40} And with many other words did he testify
and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
{41} Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the
same day there were added about three thousand souls.
{42} And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and
fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
If you would like any further info. Please let me know.
Brad
... The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics!
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* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
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