11 Years of HolySmoke: Brainless Fundies Vs. Reality
God Damned Fundies!
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: You *didn't* answer this
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:22:52
EID:da86 227b9ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77918c4b
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 33390faa
SA> That hasn't come to trial YET? Well, it's good to know I haven't
SA> missed it; I'll certainly be more interested in following that
SA> than the OJ spectacle. Of course, I bet they won't have as
SA> much teevee coverage this time 'round.
If all holds, the end of March will be the big day. I don't look for the
glitz that OJ attracted. The country is damned angry about this. It is
my belief that he3 will never be executed but will die in a federal pen.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:28:43
EID:34d1 227b9b80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77919b84
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 3337f800
MG>> Saved to disk, Whines. Another example of xtian charity.
MG>> ROTFL!
KY> I would agree with him that abortion is worthy of the death
KY> penalty, except since the girl wasn't the one that actually
KY> killed the unborn child, it probably should be the so called
KY> doctors that should be executed.
Your logic is as leaky as an inner tube in a dart factory.
The child is born and dies int eh hands of a 12 year old that does nto know
the first thing about raising a child. Maybe then, we should execute the
physicians that allowed her to come to term.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Blavatsky?
|Date: 26 Mar 97 19:28:26
EID:77fa 227a9b80
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 0e039546
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3333ad22
TID: GE/32 1.2
QF>> Did you archive your first one? I still have the original message saved.
QF>> I need to get out more often.
RS> Why archive, when you can print and wallpaper your house!
I should print it out and staple it to my wall, at least. :)
I recently saw something kinda cool at school yesterday. Someone had taken
some church-issue pictures of Jesus (not sure which church, though) and
put
the caption, "MILK: Where's Your Mustache" with a dab of white paint on
Jesus' mustache. There were a few of these posted around the university,
so I
just had to take one home and put it on the wall. :)
... Necromancers put the FUN back in funerals!
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Re: dumb religious delusions
|Date: 26 Mar 97 23:50:00
EID:f0b4 227abe40
MSGID: 1:383/6293 3330CD37
In a message to Darryl Gonzalez <03-24-97 17:08> Mark O'Neill wrote:
MO> MSGID: 3:640/375.1 3336fcbf
MO> REPLY: 1:383/6293 3328B87E
MO> CHRS: LATIN-1 2
MO> While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as
MO> lightning
MO> conductors on church steeples, Darryl Gonzalez said this to me about
MO> dumb
MO> religious delusions
MO>
MO> MO>> KY> Evidence won't necessarily make you believe.
MO> MO>> ^^^^^^^^
MO> MO>> It'd be a fuckin' start, wouldn't it, Dickbrain?
MO>
MO> DG> With most of those I've encountered on this echo, it'd be a
MO> useless
MO>
MO> Encountered what? Useless what? You're not being very specific,
MO> Darryl,
MO> Darryl and Darryl.
MO>
MO> DG> be like handing someone a closed book and saying, "Read this",
MO> and
MO> DG> they'd reply, "I can't: it's closed." So then you open it and
MO> say,
MO> DG> "Read this." Then they reply, "I can't: I can't read." You will
MO> make
MO>
MO> What the fuck are you on about here? Oh, I see. You're telling me
MO> that
MO> I've never read the bible, aren't you? You would be in error if you
MO> suggested this. I do have a copy of it. I also have The Satanic
MO> Bible,
You totally missed the point, Mark. My point there was that most of the
people on this echo will refuse to listen to any evidence or argument no
matter what I do. That point had nothing to do with reading the Bible at
all.
MO> as well as various other books, not to mention another 100 or so on
MO> file
MO> which are a mixture of pro/anti christian beliefs. You see, Darryl,
MO> Darryl and Darryl, I'm actively searching for answers to many
MO> impossible
MO> questions. I expect I'll never find satisfactory answers or
MO> *evidence*
MO> for any of my questions but, unlike you, I'm not afraid to look.
MO> That's
MO> the difference. You're afraid to look outside your faith.
No, Mark. I've probably done a great deal more searching than you have
ever
done. I've looked at all the major religious and non-religious viewpoints
in
the world. But when it came down to making a decision, I chose to follow
Jesus Christ, and that's a choice I've never regretted.
MO>
MO> De-bunked.
Yes, you are.
MO>
MO> DG> every excuse you can to not examine any evidence that's put
MO> before you.
MO>
MO> *EVIDENCE*, Darryl, Darryl and Darryl. You have yet to provide
MO> *evidence*. You, like every other fucking religious fruitcake in
MO> here,
MO> have failed to provide *evidence*! All you can do is quote
MO> scriptures.
MO> As there is no *evidence* these teachings are fact, your arguements
MO> have no basis.
OK. A couple of items for you:
1. A brilliant mathematician, Dr. Robert Herrman, Professor of Mathematics
at
the U. S. Naval Academy, has published an excellent mathematical
demonstration using set theory which shows that it IS in fact reasonable
to
believe in God. (The entire text of the article is available on the World
Wide Web at http://www.redbay.com:80/org/creation/sehi.txt.) His basic
argument is this: There are certain types of characteristics which seem
to
characterize intelligence. These include the ability to communicate, the
ability to make decisions, and the ability to argue. He states that through
the use of functions called consequence operators, these abilities (and
others) can be shown to be part of larger sets of abilities (or "ultra-mental
processes", as he calls them). He states, "When the collection UM of
ultra-mental processes is compared, as a whole, with the corresponding set
M
of mental processes that are displayed by humanity, then it appears reasonable
to characterize the collection UM as representing a higher intelligence.
The
logical existence of UM is obtained by use of the most fundamental tool
of
modern science and establishes that the acceptance of the existence of a
supernatural higher intelligence is scientifically rational and valid."
If
you don't have access to the World Wide Web, send me your address & I'll
send
you the article.
2. There are many scientific experts in the world who do in fact believe
that
God exists. I quoted some of them earlier. But let's look at why a scientist
might believe this: In order for human life to develop as it has here on
Earth, a number of conditions had to be met. The Earth, for example, had
to maintain a distance of 92 million and 94 million miles between it and
the
Sun. Too much closer, and we'd have fried. Too much farther away, we'd
have
frozen. The atmosphere had to have around 21 percent oxygen. The Earth
had
to rotate at a high enough speed to maintain its gravity. I could go on
and
on and on. You might say, "Coincidence!" Really? You mean if I, for
example, were shooting craps and rolled double sixes once, it might be a
coincidence? Yes, IF it happened once and only once. If it happened over
and
over and over, then you'd begin to think something was strange here, wouldn't
you?
3. Dr. J. C. Grenda, former Professor of Geology at Angelo State University
in San Angelo, Texas, and NOT a Christian, once validated my faith in a
historical geology class that I took from him by showing that an undersea
earthquake which is known to have happened in the Mediterranean Sea around
3000 B.C. could have caused the Red Sea to roll back in the manner in which
the Book of Exodus describes it. He also admitted when I asked him that
many
of the miracles described in the Old Testament do have geological evidences
supporting them. And, remember, he is NOT a Christian.
4. There are a good many World Wide Web sites that offer evidences for
God.
The best I've found yet is at http://www.doesgodexist.org.
5. Archaeology backs the Bible. There has not, to my knowledge, been even
one archaeological discovery which contradicts it. Ruins of Sodom and
Gomorrah, for example, have been found. Ruins of Babylon have been found.
Still want to say there's no evidence, Mark?
MO>
MO> DG> That's why I haven't bothered to put any of the evidence (except
MO> the
MO> DG> scientific quotes) that I have
MO>
MO> That's logical. Science is logical. Facts are found through a
MO> logical
MO> process. Faith has no scientific process, ergo, faith is not
MO> logical.
No, but the object of that faith is testable. If I, for example, wanted
to
put my money into a certain bank, I'd first want to know as much as I could
about it's financial situation, since I'm trusting it with my money. I
therefore would talk to the banker, and I'd look at how long it's been in
business, what it's securities are, if it's a member of FDIC, etc. Only
afte
r studying this would I decide to become (or not to become) a part of that
bank.
MO>
MO> DG> on this echo. I don't believe you'll listen to any of it.
MO>
MO> Correct. Endless spiels on your god contain nothing most of us don't
MO> already know. Remember that. The reason most of us question your
MO> religion is because it is irrational. It is flawed beyond what an
MO> intelligent person can accept as truth. It is not rational to accept
MO> your
MO> bible as truth when glaring faults exist within it's passages. A
MO> moron
MO> might be able to ignore these grievous mistakes but I, for one,
MO> cannot.
I've already disproven much of this point earlier in this message, so I
won't
repeat myself. Suffice it to say this, however: I've spent 18 years of
my
life studying the Bible. I've read it in at least four different
translations. I cannot find any one of these "mistakes" you speak so much
ab
out. I think, perhaps, you were LOOKING for mistakes, and then went out
and
"found" them. I urge you to do it again, this time with an open heart and
mind.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If the bar waitress snickers at your drink order, saying. "I'll see
if we still make that drink."
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:55:00
EID:2e98 227b76e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e73a666a
GH> JB> No, you forgot penalties and reasoning for the woman who requests
the
GH> JB> abortion. You also forgot that women do not have to seek out a doctor
GH> JB> to abort. You didn't lay out procedures for determining if a woman
has
GH> JB> had a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or induced. Or were you
GH> JB> planning on just counting every miscarriage as an abortion.
GH> JB> You also forgot to add that you are an idiot. When YOU can get
GH> JB> pregnant, then you can decide. Until then, you have no say.
GH> I covered all the bases; you apparently need to learn to read. A
woman
GH> who requests, and allows, an abortion is participating in its performance,
GH> however passively...indeed, she plays a central part. As such, she
is sub-
GH> ject to the same penalties as any other member of the ensemble.
GH> If the woman takes an abortion-inducing substance, she becomes the
abortion
GH> ist, and is subject to the same penalties as any other provider would
be.
I am going to assume that you are working from a base of ignorance, and
not plain wilful maliciousness. Medical treatment for many medical
conditions are either abortifacients or will severely damage the
fetus. What you are saying, in effect, is that a woman who finds
herself pg should discontinue taking a life saving medication rather
than risk losing the pg and being jailed.
GH> I am certain that any woman spontaneously aborting or miscarrying
will
GH> seek medical assistance to prevent complications, etc., and that would
GH> provide all the necessary evidence, so there need be no addiiitional
GH> determinations made.
How do you tell a D&E (the proper name for the 'vacuum' procedure) for
the purposes of cleaning out a miscarriage from one to interrupt a pg?
Oh, you do know what the stakes are for not getting a D&E after a
miscarriage are, don't you? Would you like to see your daughter die
screaming? Retained material from an incomplete abortion (the word
abortion is used medically to indicate any pg that does not go to
term, not just those that are deliberately interrupted) not only can go
septic in a particularly nasty manner, but the retained tissue can cause
a spectacularly fast moving cancer.
GH> As for my not having a right to make a decision for you, I never claimed
GH> that right. What I am advocating is a complete cessation of the
practice
GH> of substituting abortion for proper decision making. You do have
the
GH> right to choose who does what to your body. If you take proper precaution
GH> you won't get pregnant. Therefor, especially in this age of advocacy
GH> for safe sex, an unwanted pregnancy is an indication of incompetence
on the
GH> part of the woman...even in most cases where the pregnancy is caused
by
GH> rape.
No, you are claiming the right to remove all my rights to deciding what
happens to my own body. You are a slaver. Where did you get the
idea that birth control methods currently available were failsafe? Or
even all safe?
Women are not the only ones who should be held accountable. Sorry,
Stupid, but if something slips, and the man just won't stop, it's not
the woman's fault.
GH> I have raised 5 daughters...none of whom have ever had an unwanted
GH> pregnancy, because they had the common sense to take precautions.
GH> The daughter of a friend was raped, in her own bed. Because the
woman
GH> was on "The Pill", she didn't get pregnant. What's YOUR excuse?
Too
GH> much in a hurry to take your pill every morning, as prescribed???
GH> If you wanna play, you gotta figure on paying...
So the girl was 'playing' when she got raped. You are one sick man, and
I feel for your daughters. No doubt the values and attitudes that
you've conditioned into them have made them into good little slaves, but
those attitudes are setting them up for a world of hurt through the
years. No doubt you won't care, as long as they don't disturb your
belching and scratching.
I'm glad your daughters friend could take the pill--not all women can.
Do you even know how the pill works, and the risks that it brings with
it? Were you even aware that some xtian fanatics want to outlaw the
pill as an abortion drug (something that you want to send your
daughter's friend to jail for using)?
GH> Whatever situation that brings about the pregnancy, it ISN'T the fault
GH> of the victim of an abortion, so why sentence him, or her, to death
for
GH> YOUR mistakes???
Because he, she, or it is only welcome to my body with my permission.
GH> THAT's why I would like to see abortions outlawed...they victimize
the
GH> wrong parties...refute THAT if you can!!!
Instead of victimizing the women, something that you seem to be just
dandy about.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * BANISH THE DEMON JEHOVAH!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:55:00
EID:1be4 227b76e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 74b001f2
GH> GH> The remains of the Ark have been found. YOU figure out how long
it
GH> GH> took one man to build it from scratch.
GH> JB>
GH> JB> Not AGAIN? How many times is this thing going to be found?
GH> JB> Hint for you...it hasn't.
GH> Perhaps YOU need to read up on recent (last 30 years) history?
The ark was built out of rail road ties!!! And
they're going to build a four lane high way up to it, with a look out
yet!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * BECAUSE!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: RE: ARROGANCE
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:55:00
EID:1071 227b76e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b40a21fc
GH> If you had bothered to include the next line of my post (which completes
GH> my statement that I was/am ready to face the possibility that I may
GH> have made the wrong choice) you would show yourself to be as stupid
as
GH> I claim all you apologists to be....I DID ANSWER THE QUESTION. Now,
GH> I repeat my challenge...what will you do when you find out I made
the
GH> correct choice? After all, there is as strong a probability that
MY
GH> God is THE GOD as there is to the contrary...that's the beauty of
Pascal's
GH> Wager...everyone will learn the Name of the True God eventually, and
GH> those who have chosen to follow that God will be sitting there thumbing
GH> their noses as the losers get on the "DOWN" elevator...
Well, they sure sound like 'nice' people. Ugh. I think that I would
rather not having any thing to do with that sort of white trash, thank
you very much.
---
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:55:00
EID:42d0 227b76e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 01ef2e2f
GH> KD> On (17 Mar 97) Ken Wiens wrote to Roger Hunter...
GH> KW> You hold on. I maintained and still maintain that the
GH> KW> ONLY situation in which an abortion is justified is
GH> KW> to save the life of the mother. Outside that those
GH> KW> who do so should have a fair trial and if found guilty
GH> KW> executed.
GH> KD> And a 12 year old victim of incestuous rape does not fall under
your
GH> KD> category of "life."
GH> What are *YOU* babbling about??? (See! we Christians can "just jump
in
GH> also). How does the fact that she is 12, and has been raped by a
GH> father, brother, uncle, indicate that bearing the child will endanger
GH> her life. The way the human body works allows that puberty is
GH> delayed until the body is capable of withstanding the rigors of pregnancy.
You incredible idiot. Your ignorance is astounding. IF (and I do mean
if) our hypothetical 12 year old should survive this pregnancy, she will
most likely come out of it with a damaged spine, warped pelvis, and torn
bladder. She will most likely be subject to spontaneous abortions
(translation for the stupid-miscarriage) if she should ever be able to
get pregnant again. Get your stupid ass down to the library and do some
reading. A female is able to get pregnant almost from the beginning of
puberty--long before her body is able to physically sustain that
pregnancy with out being severely damaged. That is if you are able to
stop your gleeful jacking off over pictures of 12 year olds being raped
by their daddy's long enough.
GH> The idea, as often stated by Ken Wiens, is to forestall the use of
GH> abortion/murder as a means of birth control. I have had to counsel
GH> girls of 10 and eleven who had entered puberty unbeknownst to them,
GH> because the mother was too pre-occupied to tell her the facts of life.
GH> These girls go out and play at sex games with older boys who are so
GH> eager to "score" a virgin that they will lead these girls on, and
then
GH> you end up with pre-teen girls getting pregnant. But the horror
GH> doesn't stop here. The 11yr old is scared to death...what happens
GH> if mom and pop find out???, etc.,,,so she allows herself to be talked
GH> into an abortion. This child wasn't able to cope with a just say
no
GH> circumstance, how do you expect her to glean enough info to make
GH> a difficult decision, wisely.
Oh, how that must make your 'naughty parts' tingle. How many of those
girls have you taken advantage of yourself?
GH> My advocacy here will differ from most Pro-lifers...I would like to
see
GH> a law enacted that would make it a felony to counsel anyone under
the
GH> age of 21 to have an abortion without the full knowledge of the parents
GH> of the pregnant woman...
Even when Daddy is the father?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Bigot? Racist? Fundy? Hate women? The GOP wants you!!!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: God's terrorists!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:55:00
EID:47c8 227b76e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 476a9610
RC> KW>> Dear, dear Robert. Another slice of pie?
RC> RC> Yes, thank you. I save them for visiting missionaries, so they
RC> RC> don't go to waste. :-)
RC> KW> I can only see two problems with that--the first being that you
RC> KW> would then have to waste coffee on them,
RC>I don't keep any in stock. I always offer the Mormons a nicely chilled
RC>drink of some other caffeinated beverage of their choice, though.
I've had a lot of fun with a LDS 'friend' of mine by sweetly pointed out
that chocolate also contains caffein . That always sends her into a
tailspin ending with chanted recitations of 'is not, is not, is not, is
not . . ." She also gets a bit bent when I point out that the vanilla
extract that she's substituting for the forbidden rum in a recipe
contains just as much alcohol.
RC> KW> and the second being that some of those pies have proved to
RC> KW> be very fast acting. If you are going to do that, may
RC> KW> I suggest plastic covers on your couch?
RC>They don't enter; I go outside. The better to chase them as they flee.
And a pooper scooper takes care of any droppings they leave, whether
feces or bibles.
---
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:35:38
EID:2d7f 227b5460
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed51cf
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 19-Mar-1997, "Alternative or Straw.")
DC> -> On 18 Mar 97, Laurie Appleton got back to David Rice
LA> the conclusion that Dr. Michael Behe comes to that;
DC> Gee, Laurie, run out of Velekovsky quotes?
Not at all, but I am pleased to know how much you count in
your regular "instalments". So cheer up, here is the next
one!
-----------------
At Arcy, France, also in a cave, bones of the
hippopotamus were found with bones of the reindeer, and with
them a worked flint.(6)
According to the prophecy of Isaiah (11:6), in messianic
times to come the lion and the calf would pasture together.
But even prophetic vision has not conceived of a reindeer
from snow-covered Lapland and a hippopotamus from the
tropicaì Congï Riveò livinç togetheò oî thå Britisè Isleó or
in France. Yet they did leave their bones in the same mud of
the same caves, together with bones of other animals, in the
strangest assortments.
These animal bones were found in gravel and clay to which
Buckland gave the name of diluvium.
Buckland was concerned "to establish two important facts,
first, that there has been a recent and general inundation
of the globe; and, second, that the animals whose remains are
found interred in the wreck of that inundation were natives
of high north latitudes."
The presence of tropical animals in northerî Europå
"cannoô bå solveä bù supposinç theí tï migrate
periodically... for in the case of crocodiles and tortoises
extensive emigration is almost impossible, and not less so
to such an unwieldy animal as the hippopotamus when out of
the water." But how could they live in the cold of northern
Europe? Buckland says: "It is equally difficult to imagine
that they could have passed their winters in lakes or rivers
frozen up with ice."
If cold-blooded land animals are unable to hide
themselves in the ground over the winter, in icy climates
their blood would freeze solid: they lack the ability to
regulate the temperature of their bodies. Like Cuvier¬
Bucklanä waó "nearlù certaiî thaô iæ anù changå of climate
has taken place, it took place suddenly."(7)
Of the time the catastrophe occurred which covered with
mud and pebbles the bones in the Kirkdale cave, Buckland
wrote: "From the limited quantity of postdiluvian
stalactite, as well as from the undecayed condition of the
bones," one must deduce that "the time elapsed since the
introduction of the diluvial mud has not been of excessive
length."
The bones were not . . . .
-------------------------------------
5 Cuvier, Recherches sur les ossements fossiles des
quadrupedes, IV, 94.
6 E. Lartet, Reliquiae aquitanicae, pp. 147-48.
7 Buckland, Reliquiae diluvianae, p. 47.
-------------------------------------
(Earth in Upheaval, Immanuel Velkiovsky, 1956, p. 17)
Laurie
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:36:32
EID:9e65 227b5480
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed5240
Hi Christopher,
(Re: yours of 19-Mar-1997, "Alternative or Straw".)
LA> Then WHO formed the first cell? Surely you do not accept
LA> the conclusion that Dr. Michael Behe comes to that;
CH> No one formed it. Cells didn't spontaneously crop up out
CH> of nowhere. Scientists have demonstrated that if you expose
CH> an organic "soup" of methane, carbon, oxygen and water to
CH> electricity, you will get spontaneous formations of
CH> _amino_acid_ block.
You show all the signs of being a victim of indoctrination
and of outrageous HALF-TRUTHS! There WERE many things formed
in those "scientific" experiments including traces of some
Amino Acids. However NONE of the amino acids were the right
sorts required for life.
What you have NOT been told, apparently, it that all such
experiments produce a mixture of left-handed and
right-handed Amino acids, as do ALL natural chemical
reactions, but all life as we know it has only the
LEFT-HANDED version of these amino acids and cannot possibly
work with even a TRACE of the right-handed form.
Science knows of NO way that any natural chemical reaction
could produce 100% purified forms of these chemicals and
thus scientists have only "demonstrated" that the origin of
life cannot POSSIBLY have occured by NATURAL processes!
CH> Amino acids are, if you don't remember, the building
CH> blocks of proteins.
In terms of the above that is a glorious half-truth which
is effectively a blatant mis-truth! What we now know about
proteins is not only that they MUST be of 100% left handed
amino acids, but they use ONLY a special and distinct number
of these amino acids - TWENTY in all and NO other.
Further more you were ENTITLED to have been told - but
apparently were NOT told - that these twenty amino acids need
to be assembled in a specific order to make useful proteins.
This too is utterly impossible to occur in "nature" and
again shows that all life was a most carefully DESIGNED
machine!
Laurie
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:37:20
EID:9e65 227b54a0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed52aa
Hi Christopher,
(Re: yours of 19-Mar-1997, "Alternative or Straw".)
CH> Proteins are, if you don't
CH> remember, one of the fundamental building blocks in cell
CH> structure.
Again a typical half-truth and gross simplification that
students are given and thereby mislead and misinformed!
There are thousands of DIFFERENT proteins in living things
and each one is specific and precise - just the same as in
any complex machine, if it is going to work at all.
CH> There's no need for a supreme being anywhere in the
CH> equation.
If you were given any sensible and honest understanding
of the facts, you would see that INTELLIGENT DESIGN (by what
ever Designer you like to suggest) is the one major
discovery that science has made in this matter. At every
stage in the origin of life it is abundantly clear that
great expertise and scientific understanding and technology
is paramount and essential.
The more we research this matter the more it demonstrates
that a natural origin of life it utterly impossible. As far
back as 1955 this was thought to be the case, but since then
atheist scientists have desperately and unsuccessfully
searched for a natural explanation, but have now admitted
that their quest looks hopeless! i.e.;
'A general review of prebiological evolutionary theories
in 1988 by Klaus Dose concluded that "At present all
discussions on prinicipal theories and experiments in the
field either end in stalemate or in a confession of
ignorance." Gerald Joyce's 1989 review article ended with
the somber observation that origin of life researchers have
grown accustomed to a "lack of relevant experimental data"
and a high level of frustration.'
(Darwin on Trial, Phillip E. Johnson, 1991. page.107.)
A 1996 book entitled; Darwin's Black Box, by Michael J.
Behe, confirms this same picture. The rational explanation
of life is that it necessarily requires an Intelligent
Designer! THAT is what science has really found! Those who
try to agrue otherwise are simply showing that they have
been misled and poorly informed!
Laurie
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Missing Links.
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:38:06
EID:8741 227b54c0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed530f
Hi Christopher,
(Re: yours of 19-Mar-1997, "Alternative or Straw".)
> "In the fossil record, missing links are the rule: ....The
> more scientists have searched for the transitional forms that
> lie between species, the more they have been frustrated."
> (Newsweek, 3rd. November, 1980, p. 54)
CH> Any creature with a sufficient number of differences
CH> from a given species is labeled as a different species.
Are you suggesting that even when these two "different
species" can interbreed and produce fertile offspring they
are STILL called different species? If that is the case
then would you tell me how many "species" of DOGS that we
know of?
CH> There's no such thing as a "transitional form" because
CH> evolutionary theory concerns itself with discrete steps. The
CH> continuous steps between those discrete points are all
CH> counted as microevolutionary advancements, and don't get
CH> counted as new species.
Perhaps you are trying to tell me that this view has
RECENTLY replaced that view that was believed and taught for
over 120 years. Is that what you are saying? Were you ever
taught about the famous peppered moth? It has been claimed
to be a major evidence of EVOLUTION IN ACTION, has it not?
Have you ever been told that;
"The history of most fossil species includes two features
particularly inconsistent with gradualism:
1. STASIS. Most species exhibit no directional change during
their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record
looking much the same as when they disappear, morphological
change is usually limited and directionless.
2. SUDDEN APPEARANCE. In any local area, a species does not
arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors:
it appears all at once and "fully formed.""
("The Panda's Thumb", The Episodic Nature of Evolutionary
Change, S.J. Gould, (1987 reprint), p. 151)
CH> *baffle* Did you ever pass your 7th grade life sciences
CH> class?
Your problem seems to be that you never learned anything
SINCE then!
Laurie
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Clones of Mammals.
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:38:48
EID:f011 227b54c0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed5362
Hi John,
(Re: yours of 18-Mar-1997, "Clones of Mammals.")
LA> evolution in terms of Amoeba to Man has NEVER been shown to
LA> occur anyway and 'evolution' in terms of what is called
JB> How could one 'prove' to a nonbeliever, that something
JB> happened when there was no one around to observe it? One
JB> couldn't. "Amoeba to man" is a cretinist smokescreen, a
JB> misleader of the first water.
How could that be such a smokescreen since, as you should
know, many evolutionists have described evolution in just
those terms? Are you trying to mislead and misinform the
naieve and the gullible?
JB> You fail to face the consequences of "deep time,"
JB> preferring instead to hide in the Bible's warm little
JB> theological pond.
Since "deep time" is just a figment of fervid evolutionary
imagination then you are not making any sense. Since when
has TIME produced miracles rather than INTELLIGENT DESIGN!
JB> Still a liar, eh?
The boot is on the other foot of course!
JB> You'll never change.
You are the one that needs to change!
JB> May God forgive you your lies.
Are you talking about your imaginary "Quantum" god?
JB> Evolution does not now nor has it ever said that man
JB> evolved from "monkeys," nor is it about "turning monkeys
JB> into people."
That is just plain IGNORANCE on your part of course and in
your way of speaking it would be called a blatant LIE!
JB> He'll disavow your creationist claptrap.
When will your funny imaginary "Quantum god" do that and
in what way will that bother me, if there is any truth in
your silly accusations? Are you suggesting that you
yourself will be rewarded with eternal life because of your
wild speculations? Alternatively how and when do you expect
to be rewarded for your conceited arrogance and lousy
personal attacks on others who disagree with your corny
murmurings?
Laurie
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Water and Flood.
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:39:26
EID:dc59 227b54e0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed53b7
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 21-Mar-1997, "Water and Flood.")
DC> You have yet to provide facts, Laurie. After all, all
DC> that you state is direct from the ICR.
That is ignorant poppycock.
LA> MOST, because I do not whether they MIGHT be some of the
LA> world's highest mountains that do not follow that general
DC> Of course you don't "know", Laurie. You were not given
DC> those facts as it ruins the case of your ICR handlers.
How do YOU know? Where are your facts?
DC> Tell us about your excursion with Harry Truman, Laurie.
DC> Come on, the whole world is waiting for you to tell us.
Sure Dan, sure. So here is what you really need to know
about;
---------------------
yet fossilized; their organic matter was not yet replaced by
minerals. Buckland thought that the time elapsed since a
diluvial catastrophe could not have exceeded five or six
thousand years, the figure adopted also by De Luc, Dolomieu,
and Cuvier, each of whom presented his own reasons.
Then the illustrious geologist added these words: "What
[the] cause was, whether a change in the inclination in the
earth's axis, or the near approach of a comet, or any other
cause or combination of causes purely astronomical, is a
question the discussion of which is foreign to the object of
the present memoir."
The Aquatic Graveyards
The Old Red Sandstone is regarded as one of the oldest
strata with signs of extinct life in it. No animal life
higher than fish is found there. Whatever the age of this
formation, it carries the testimony and "a wonderful record
of violent death falling at once, not on a few individuals,
but on whole tribes."(1)
In the late thirties of the last century Hugh Miller made
the Old Red Sandstone in Scotland the special subject of his
investigations. He observed: "The earth had already become a
vast sepulchre, to a depth beneath the bed of the sea equal
to at least twice the height of Ben Nevis over its
surface."(2) Ben Nevis in the Grampian Mountains is the
highest peak in Great Britain, 4406 feet high. The stratum of
the Old Red Sandstone is twice as thick.
This formation presents the spectacle of an upheaval
immobilized at a particular moment and petrified forever.
Hugh Miller wrote:
"The first scene in [Shakespeare's] The Tempest opens
amid the confusion and turmoil of the hurricane - amid
thunders and lightnings, the roar of the wind, the shouts of
the seamen, the rattling of cordage, and the wild dash of the
billows. The history of the period represented by the Old Red
Sandstone seems, in what now forms the northern half of
Scotland, to have opened
-----------------------------------
± Hugè Miller¬ Thå Olä Reä Sandstonå (Boston¬ 1865» first
published in England in 1841), p. 48.
2 Ibid., p. 217.
-----------------------------------
(Earth in Upheaval, Immanuel Velikovsky, 1956, p. 180
Laurie
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Water and Flood (b).
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:40:10
EID:9f8c 227b5500
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed5417
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 21-Mar-1997, "Water and Flood (b).")
DC> -> On 20 Mar 97, Laurie Appleton got back to Damien Wellman
LA> Then how do you account for the many many enormous
LA> graveyards of fossil animals in most parts of the world
LA> in sedimentary strata laid down rapidly by water?
DC> And, Laurie, just how many of the fossils are so
DC> intermingled as to show a world wide flood being
DC> responsible?
Such massive graveyards are found in places in many
parts of the world. The following is one such situation;
----------------------------
EARTH IN UPHEAVAL
I. VELIKOVSKY
Chapter 1
IN THE NORTH
In Alaska
In Alaska, to the north of Mount Mckinley, the tallest
mountain in North America, the Tanana River joins the Yukon.
From the Tanana Valley and the valleys of its tributaries
gold is mined out of gravel and "muck". This muck is a frozen
mass of animals and trees.
F. Rainey of the University of Alaska described the scene
(1): "Wide cuts, often several miles in length and sometimes
as much as 140 feet in depth, are now being sluiced out along
stream valleys tributary to the Tanana in the Fairbanks
District. In order to reach gold-bearing gravel beds an
over-burden of frozen silt or 'muck' is removed with
hydraulic giants. This 'muck' contains enormous numbers of
frozen bones of extinct animals such as the mammoth,
mastodon, super-bison and horse."(2)
These animals perished in rather recent times; present
estimates place their extinction at the end of the Ice Age or
in early post-glacial times. The soil of Alaska covered their
bodies together with those of animals of species still
surviving.
Under what conditions did this great slaughter take
place, in which millions upon millions of animals were torn
limb from limb and mingled with uprooted trees?
F. C. Hibben of the University of New Mexico writes:
"Although the formation of the deposits of muck is not clear,
there is ample evidence that at least portions of this
material were deposited under catastrophic conditions. Mammal
remains are for the most part dismembered and disarticulated,
even though some fragments yet retain, in their frozen state,
portions of ligaments, skin, hair, and flesh. Twisted and
torn trees are piled in splintered masses....At least four
considerable layers of volcanic ash may be traced in these
deposits, although they are extremely warped and
distorted..."(3)
Could it be that a volcanic eruption killed the animal
population of Alaska, the streams carrying down into the
valleys the bodies of the slaughtered animals? A volcanic
eruption would have charred the trees but would not have
uprooted and splintered them; if it killed animals, it would
not have dismembered them.
The presence of volcanic ash indicates that a volcanic
eruption did take place, and repeatedly, in four
consecutive stages of the same epoch; but it is also
apparent that the trees could have been uprooted and
splintered only by hurricane or flood or a combination of
both agencies. The animals could have been dismembered only
by a stupendous wave that lifted and carried and smashed
and torå anä burieä millionó oæ bodieó anä millionó oæ
trees. Also, the area of the catastrophe was much greater
than the action of a few volcanoes could have covered.
Muck deposits like those of the Tanana River Valley are
found in the lower reaches of the Yukon in the western part
of the peninsula, on the Koyukuk River that flows into the
Yukon from the north, on the Kuskokwim River that empties its
waters into Bering Sea, and at several places along the
Arctic coast, and so "may be considered to extend in greater
or lesser thickness over all unglaciated areas of the
northern peninsula."(4)
What could have caused the Arctic Sea and the Pacific
Ocean to irrupt and wash away forests with all their animal
population and throw the entire mingled mass in great heaps
scattered all over Alaska, the coast of which is longer than
the Atlantic sea-board from Newfoundland to Florida? Was it
not a tectonic revolution in the earth's crust, that also
caused the volcanoes to erupt and to cover the peninsula with
ashes?
-------------------------------------
(1) F. Rainey, "Archaeological Investigation in Central
Alaska," American Antiquity, V (1940), 305.
(2) The horse became extinct in pre-Columbian America; the
present horses in the Western Hemisphere are descendants of
imported animals.
------------------------------
³ F.C® Hibben¬ "Evidencå oæ Earlù Maî iî Alaska,¢ Americaî
Antiquity¬ VIIÉ (1943)¬ 256
´ Ibid.
------------------------------------
Laurie
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Harry Truman.
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:40:52
EID:8190 227b5500
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed546a
Hi John,
(Re: yours of 20-Mar-1997, "Harry Truman.")
JB> HOW MANY discarded hypotheses is an indication of the
JB> rapidity of evolution's accuratization --its improvement
JB> rate.
I have to agree that evolution has indeed "improved" over
the last couple of decades, with particular reference to
that decade of debates, where various evolutionists have
admitted that the Creation Scientists WON almost every one
of these open, public, scientific debates!
That is the sort of "improvement" that might well find
them "improving" all the way to the Garden of Eden! No
wonder evolutionists are now in the following almost chaotic
state!
"Superficially, it looks as if we know less now about how
evolution works than we did, say, even ten years ago. This
is because, as recently at a decade ago, there was something
approaching unanimity in the evolutionary ranks. Today,
though chaos is too strong a word, there is definitely
dissent in the ranks."
(The Monkey Business, Niles Eldredge, 1982, p. 52 as
quoted in; Creationists Answer their Critics, p. 238)
JB> Science's glory is its technique, which yields
JB> ever-more-accurate, ever-closer images of actual reality.
Yes indeed. The closer it it forced by the facts to the
Creationist position the MORE accurate it becomes! A major
shift occurred when Gould and Eldredge managed to introduce
Punctuated Equilibria and the following has been greeted
with many a wry smile from Creationists, since it is in many
ways a close echo of their consistent claims;
"The history of most fossil species includes two features
particularly inconsistent with gradualism:
1. STASIS. Most species exhibit no directional change during
their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record
looking much the same as when they disappear, morphological
change is usually limited and directionless.
2. SUDDEN APPEARANCE. In any local area, a species does not
arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors:
it appears all at once and "fully formed.""
("The Panda's Thumb", The Episodic Nature of Evolutionary
Change, S.J. Gould, (1987 reprint), p. 151)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBS Bris Aus +61-7-38035651 V34+ Node 3 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Popper & Metaphysics.
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:41:54
EID:59ae 227b5520
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89ed54ee
Hi John,
(Re: yours of 20-Mar-1997, "Harry Truman.")
LA> Your constant reference to the revered word "science" in
LA> realation to evolution has to be a misleading deception and
LA> it is no wonder that Karl Popper wrote that;
LA> "I have come to the conclusion that Darwinism is not a
LA> testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research
LA> programme - a possible framework for testable theories. It
LA> suggests the existence of a mechanism of adaptation and it
LA> allows us to even study in detail the mechanism at work. And it
LA> is the only theory so far which does that."
LA> (UNENDED QUEST (1976), as referenced in; Darwin's Enigma, p. 28)
JB> Sophist Liar Appleton again uses recanted words of
JB> philosopher, achieves yet another level of prevarication in
JB> service to his chosen religious belief-system....
Your position is not enhanced by such distorted and
ridiculous comments. In fact it makes you look distinctly
like some gutter type politicians.
Your long "import" by Jim Lippard is noted and a few
parts are used as prompts.
JB> 3. Popper subsequently wrote:
JB> I have changed my mind about the testability and logical
JB> status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to
JB> have an opportunity to make a recantation. ...
JB> (Popper, "Natural Selection and
JB> the Emergence of Mind," _Dialectica_ 32(1978):339-355; quotations
JB> are from pp. 344-346)
The absurdity of that statement is that Creationists
themselves have always accepted the fact of natural
selection and the survival of the fittest. It has NOTHING to
do with evolution and never has, in SPITE of Darwin's false
assumption that it was the be-all and end-all of his corny
hypothesis. The following should put this matter in
perspective;
"There is no doubt that natural selection is a
mechanism, that it works. It has been repeatedly
demonstrated by experiments. There is no doubt at all that
it works. But the question of whether it produces new
species is quite another matter."
"No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of
natural selection. No one has ever gotten near and it most
of the current argument in neo-Darwinism is about this
question: how a species originates and it is there that
natural selection seems to be fading out and chance
mechanisms of one sort or another are being invoked."
(Dr Colin Patterson, on the subject of "Cladistics", in an
interview on British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC)
television, 4 March 1982. Colin Patterson is Senior
Palaeontologist at the British Museum of Natural History,
London.)
JB> I have no less than three repetitions, on different
JB> dates in the PAST, where YOU originated this _same_ claim,
JB> and were flatly refuted by the above post's content.
Nothing has been refuted at all except perhaps natural
selection as a mechanism of macroevolution.
JB> You are not only a liar, you're a liar who refuses to
JB> stand _corrected_.
To be "corrected" by a fool is the ultimate foolishness!
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBS Bris Aus +61-7-38035651 V34+ Node 3 (3:640/238)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 27 Mar 97 00:43:47
EID:571f 227b0560
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33398ab4
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3330c988
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Richard Smith said this to me about Cracker
Barrel boycott
G'day Richard,
DC>> Aren't you the little bigot that claims that homosexuals
DC>> cannot repent?
ky>> Nope.
RS> What a liar.
A chronic case of short-term selective memory loss by the looks of it.
ky>> I was misunderstood.
RS> Untrue. He made the statement. Maybe he wants to ammend it
RS> now.
Doubtful. He'll just "let it slide" hoping we'll all forget it. Typical.
ky>> become Christian. But once they accept Christ as
ky>> their savior, all homosexuality is gone.
RS> Total beefola . . .
That about sums up his entire faith. But we've already established this
much.
MO>> Is it just me or does Jelly need taking out the back and
MO>> given a few gangster slaps Al Capone style to snap him out
RS> If you're hoping to jar his brains into working, you'd first
While highly unlikely it _is_ a positive thought.
RS> have to establish that he has any.
Evidence in favour of this being true has been lacking thusfar. I feel
it
won't be forthcoming in the near future either. I wonder when he thinks
the
second coming is due? Hope it's soon and I hope it's on a Saturday. I don't
work Saturdays.
/\\ark...
... At birth we woke to dream in this world between. -- Kan'ami Kiyotsugu
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: All
|Sub: ...
|Date: 26 Mar 97 15:03:12
EID:33c0 227a7860
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33398f10
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 3333d1d2
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Ken Young said this to Lynda Bustilloz about
...
[Jeezus]
LB>> Oh yea....and how did he get IN there? How was he conceived?
KY> Sometimes people look too hard for some complex answer. He got in
KY> there, because God put him in there.
God: "Now, Mary, this won't hurt although you might feel a bit of a prick".
Mary: "So, what else is new?"
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 26 Mar 97 15:16:39
EID:87b0 227a7a00
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33399237
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 333451b6
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Ken Wiens said this to Martin Goldberg about
Accepting Reality
MG>> Saved to disk, Whines. Another example of xtian charity.
MG>> ROTFL!
KW> Good. Maybe someday you'll have an ounce of concern for
KW> the unborn child. Then again, it is likely the average
KW> heathen will not. But typical, though, a heathen
KW> going ahead and letting off a "ROTFL!" on a subject
KW> like this.
ROTFL!
/\\ark...
... Evolution's not *just* a theory like creationism's not *just* a lie.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: George Harper
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 26 Mar 97 17:54:07
EID:62a5 227a8ec0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33399543
REPLY: 1:104/447 29170640
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, George Harper said this to Becke Boyer about
EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
GH>> Accounts in the Bible, which I am convinced is infallible. If
you
GH>> have evidence to the contrary, present it.
BB>> How many legs do grasshoppers have, George?
GH> Not having had interest enough to check, I don't know. I also
Of course you wouldn't, you ignorant fuck. FWIW, insects have six legs,
an
*UNDENIABLE FACT* even my seven year old niece is aware of.
GH> don't know what relevance that number has to my claim of
GH> infallibility
GH> of the Bible...care to show the link? Or is that another
GH> "pasquale-ism"
GH> like the wager someone mentioned, somewhere?
Check this out, Georgie baby, from your own "infallible" bible.
Leviticus:
011:021 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth
upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap
withal upon the earth;
011:022 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and
the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind,
and the grasshopper after his kind.
011:023 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet,
shall be an abomination unto you.
Four legged insects, George?
Infallible bible, George?
Can you say "debunked", George?
/\\ark...
... Your IQ test results are back -- they're negative.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: George Harper
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 27 Mar 97 01:15:52
EID:8a58 227b09e0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333999dc
REPLY: 1:104/447 29170642
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, George Harper said this to Becke Boyer about
ARROGANCE
GH> I am charged by my God to be concerned about the spiritual welfare
GH> of
GH> all, as are all Christians. Therefor, I fulfill this charge by
Firstly, you wanna fix your editor? I despise cleaning up sloppy text.
A clue, George, I am NOT a christian. My life needs no propping up with
your
fucking god. Next time you talk to him/her/it remind him/her/it that
his/her/its biggest mistake was granting myself and likeminded individuals
intelligence and the free-will to use it. Watch your own back, George,
for
surely you have more to worry about after death than I.
/\\ark...
... Why do Christians worship a god that violated a virgin's civil rights?
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 26 Mar 97 15:56:25
EID:d17e 227a7f00
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33399b89
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3331dc8c
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Don Martin said this to Ken Young about Cracker
Barrel boycott
RS>> Rod "...you're really that stupid to try and put that one over
RS>> me?" Swift :)
KY>> Are you sure I am the stupid one?
DM> Why not? Everyone else is.
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
/\\ark...
... Belief, believe, believes...conjugates of the verb "to blindly accept"
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ...
|Date: 26 Mar 97 16:23:21
EID:bdc2 227a82e0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 3339a1d9
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 774e89f3
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Martin Goldberg said this to me about ...
G'day Martin,
[Jelly]
MO>> list of quotes that I threw back at him the other day was
MO>> only partially answered. The one that I really wanted an
MO>> answer to was omitted. Hmm...
MG> I don't know about Jelly. He has made every ignorant fundy comment
MG> that they all mkae. I think that he's trying to be stupid.
And doing an admirable job. His post continue to amuse though which, to
me, is
important. ;-)
/\\ark...
... Blind people don't bungee jump; it scares the dog too much.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Mario Gonzalez
|Sub: POLL
|Date: 27 Mar 97 01:17:07
EID:6265 227b0a20
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333a18e7
REPLY: 4:972/4.0 3335b2c8
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Mario Gonzalez said this to All about POLL
G'day Mario,
MG> THEISTWATCH SHORT SHOTS
MG> While most Americans believe in heaven, who gets to go there after
Mate, keep these coming if you've got them. They're very interesting.
MG> Dr. Mario Gonz lez
Doctor in which field, may I ask? There's quite a few professionals in here.
Alas, I am not among them. ;)
/\\ark...
... Yes, it DOES require faith to actively disbelieve in Santa Claus.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 27 Mar 97 01:00:27
EID:dec9 227b0800
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333a1b0b
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 33347952
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Ken Young said this to Christopher Hughes
about Cracker Barrel boycott
KY> God is who says who is a Christian and who isn't, and He authored a
KY> book that covers this topic quite well.
Show me _ONE_ reference in your bible that mentions christianity or christians.
/\\ark...
... ORGANIST TO GIVE ST. JOHN'S RECTAL. -- real headline (Richard Lederer)
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 27 Mar 97 01:57:03
EID:6a5a 227b0f20
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333a1bb4
REPLY: 1:123/67 3333a1ab
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Shelby Sherman said this to Ken Young about
Ken Young: Poster child
G'day Shelby,
SS> Just as a reference, how old are you, Kenny?
*** Area: HOLYSMOKE Date: 23 Mar 97 0:24:02
*** From: Ken Young (1:270/420.0)
*** To : Christopher Hughes
*** Subj: J.J. needs to be Hitt
CH> What do you think the
CH> benediction before every football game and graduation ceremony is?
I wouldn't know, as the schools I know of, don't allow it. Even back when
I
was in high school(I graduated in 90), they were trying to stop prayer being
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: God Scruffy
|Date: 27 Mar 97 01:48:57
EID:8ae0 227b0e00
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333a261b
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332d2392
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Rod Swift said this to Fredric Rice about
God
Scruffy
G'day Rod,
FR>> But my tirade was _serious_!
RS> So was mine :) :) Hair of the dog, Brother Fredric? :) :)
I *LOVE* trivia and spend a reasonable amount of time on the Etymology
pages looking for interesting things. My current fave is
http://www.phoenix.net/~melanie/thelogic.htm. Check it out one day. Some
interesting stuff on there. Anyway....
Trivia time: The phrase "hair of the dog", as we all know, is having a
shot of beer or whatever in the morning after a heavy drinking session to
make us feel better. (Yeah, RIGHT!). Anyhow, it apparently has it's
origins back in ye olde days when rabid dogs were a bit of a problem. As
far as the story goes when a victim of a rabid dog bite needed curing, a
herbalist(?) mixed up a foul brew containing all sorts of disgusting
ingredients including a single hair off the dog in question. The bite
victim then had to swallow the entire concoction including the all
important dog hair. This, apparently, was the only way to prevent the
onset of rabies.
/\\ark...
... According to Ken Young, Xtians who sodomize children are still Xtians.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Graham Drummond
|To: Mark O'neill
|Sub: Blavatsky
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:53:32
EID:21fa 227b76a0
MSGID: 3:640/375@fidonet 333ade4f
PID: CNet PRO 4.26a (final beta)
Mark wrote to Buster about the paradoxes involved in using Christians
as lightning conductors on church steeples:
GD> I just thought I'd let you all know that the most despised
GD> ex-HOLYSMOKE writer this side of Palestine is back, for a while
GD> at least.
MO> Welcome, Graham Erectus, Oh Great One who walketh about upright. :-)
Yeah, well, my knuckles still drag on the ground. :)
GD> ... O instrument of God, force-fed on ignorance and lies.. - Walkyier
MO> Top tag. Sounds vaguely familiar. Hmm... :)
Speaking of old Marty, you might be interested to read this:
------------------------------------------------------------
FROM: Ric Carter
TO: Me
SUBJ: Blavatsky
GD> mentioned in this song lyric by Martin Walkyier and I'd like to
GD> find out who it is.
GD> One man - one vision, racial purity,
GD> madman or magician? A mystery to me,
GD> he who scorns the teachings of Blavatsky count the cost,
GD> there's more than superstition hides behind the crooked cross.
"Madame" Helena Petrovna Blavatsky [1831-1891], co-founder of the
Theosophical Society [New York, 1875] was a circus equestrian,
traveler and "spiritualist" who populated her fantasies with
"Tibetan adepts", "Eqyptian mystic masters", etc... and her
writings were largely plagarisms from various works including
Ignatius Donnelly's ATLANTIS. Blavatsky's doctrines include
the Great White Brotherhood, the Ascended Masters, and other
prototypes of fascist mysticism. Read about her in DEJA VU:
The Hidden History of the New Age, by Jay Kinney, included in
THE FRINGES OF REASON, ed. by Ted Schultz [Harmony/Crown, 1989].
BTW "racial purity" is a crock of shit, and an exceedingly
bloody and deadly crock at that. The entire song you quote
is a paean to hate, fear and violence. Try something else.
------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm! Something tells me he doesn't recognise satire.
Gang warily
Buster
... Primus in orbe deos fecit timor - Petronius
--- CNet/4
* Origin: Verbal Verbatim 07-3396-4054 203.3.126.194 (3:640/375)
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|From: Graham Drummond
|To: Homer Simpson
|Sub: Re: nu-bible.txt
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:53:39
EID:6c8a 227b76a0
MSGID: 3:640/375@fidonet 333ade58
PID: CNet PRO 4.26a (final beta)
F> "I dip my forefinger into the watery blood of your impotent mad redeemer,
F> and write over his thorn-torn brow: The TRUE prince of evil - the king
of
F> slaves!" - The Infernal Diatribe/Anton Szandor La Vey
F> See how this works, boxhead? No substance and no *evidence* that this
F> event has or will ever take place. Save your quotes for someone who
knows
HS> Well like i said to you before Fleagle, you believe what you want, and
HS> i'll believe what i want.
Are you actually *reading* what Fleagle has written?
HS> that they like a certern car , house , song , food, and so on, that
HS> you did'nt like, would you give them crap, like you do to Jammer and
HS> myself?
I would if they told me that the thing they liked was the only
good thing of its kind, and that everyone who doesn't like it
will suffer.
F> Why is there no historical account of moses parting the Red Sea besides
F> your bible? With the tens of thousands of people that made the journey
to
F> the promised land, surely at least one of them would have recorded the
F> event. Or did they all bear false witness? Give me one non-religious
F> account and I may believe it.
HS> Concerning Moses and other topics, i'll see what i can find.
Ha! I'll get back to you shortly!
Gang warily
Buster
... I'm in the Jehovah's Witness Protection Program.
--- CNet/4
* Origin: Verbal Verbatim 07-3396-4054 203.3.126.194 (3:640/375)
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|From: Graham Drummond
|To: Homer Simpson
|Sub: Spelling is a lossed art
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:53:47
EID:62f3 227b76a0
MSGID: 3:640/375@fidonet 333ade5d
PID: CNet PRO 4.26a (final beta)
F> _I_ don't know what I'm talking about? And you do?
HS> yes i do know what im talking about, not beacuse i speak not of
HS> myself, but becuase i speak of JESUS.
Why do you worship Jesus? Aren't you meant to be worshipping God?
Jesus does not exist any more except in fables.
Oh, yeah, you like Bible quotes, eh? Compare these.
------------------------------------------------------------
Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither
the son of man, that he should repent."
Exodus 32:14 - "And the Lord repented of the evil which he
thought to do unto his people."
------------------------------------------------------------
Exodus 33:20 - "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no
man see me, and live."
Genesis 32:30 - "I have seen God face to face."
------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 19:26 - "Jesus ... said unto them, With men this is
impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Judges 1:19 - "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the
inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
------------------------------------------------------------
Check six
Buster
... I call Christianity...the *one* mortal blemish of mankind. - Nietzsche
--- CNet/4
* Origin: Verbal Verbatim 07-3396-4054 203.3.126.194 (3:640/375)
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|From: Graham Drummond
|To: Eric Draven
|Sub: god in my visions
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:53:47
EID:7307 227b76a0
MSGID: 3:640/375@fidonet 333ade61
PID: CNet PRO 4.26a (final beta)
Connor. Speed. Draven. Henderson. Beale.
ED> but the bible you people are balieving in now is ridiculous!
ED> He says most importantly is for you to be yourself!
ED> NOt what the pope is TELLING you to be!
Amen to that!
Check six
Buster
... So much wrong could religion induce. - Lucretius
--- CNet/4
* Origin: Verbal Verbatim 07-3396-4054 203.3.126.194 (3:640/375)
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|From: Graham Drummond
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: nu-bible.txt
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:53:55
EID:df69 227b76a0
MSGID: 3:640/375@fidonet 333ade64
PID: CNet PRO 4.26a (final beta)
Hitler. Stalin. Armstrong. Mussolini. Mao Tse Tung. Drummond.
Ja> What's more, It says in the Bible(tm) that if you tell people once and
Ja> they argue, just leave.
GD> Why?
SA> Because even the writers knew it wouldn't stand up to proper
SA> scrutiny?
It seems too many xtians are afraid of intelligence.
Check six
Buster
... Easter has been cancelled. They found the body.
--- CNet/4
* Origin: Verbal Verbatim 07-3396-4054 203.3.126.194 (3:640/375)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:13:24
EID:d20c 227b71a0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333ad4e4
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33325ace
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Rod Swift said this to me about Ha!
G'day Rod,
MO>> nails and as rough as guts. I defy anyone to call this gentleman
MO>> "giggly".
MO>> RS> Maybe we should introduce Jimson to him :) :)
MO>> Sounds like a top idea to me mate. Afterall, young Staalin only lives
a
MO>> few miles from here. Perhaps I could start an innocent discourse on
RS> No. Jimson is in Michigan. We'd be introducin' Laurie to him :)
Doh! I fucked up! Could you ever forgive me? ;-)
/\\ark...
... Apathy error: Don't bother striking any key.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:15:47
EID:38c4 227b71e0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333ad573
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33326d7c
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Rod Swift said this to me about Exemplifying
examples
G'day Rod,
MO>> Hmm... I shudder to think. I wonder if his wife/other half is a
MO>> fruitcake as well?
RS> Probably as nutty as!
Or as meek as. :-/
MO>> Trying to catch up on a backlog of mail ATM. I'm getting mail
a
MO>> month old thanks to fido + I moved house a couple of days ago and
RS> Well, just remember to get going on the packets asap! :)
It's coming! It's coming! :-) Got another 13 messages to add to the list
today. I'm slowly clawing my way back. ;-)
/\\ark...
... A book is the only immortality.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: [1/3] Cheese Whiz
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:18:34
EID:22db 227b7240
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333ad61a
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33326df8
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Rod Swift said this to me about [1/3] Cheese
Whiz
G'day Rod,
[Staalin]
RS> Remember this folks.....
MO>> Better than that mate. Tagged and archived.
RS> And remember to hold it against him at EVERY point.
:-) Last night I set my mailer to keep a base 20,000 messages in this
area. I'll up it when I need more. BTW, that mormon anti-masturbation
guide was a pisser. Damn near fell off me chair. ;-)
/\\ark...
... "Light the Wickramsingh and throw the damn thing!"
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 27 Mar 97 14:20:10
EID:e8c3 227b7280
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333ad67a
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33327da0
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Rod Swift said this to me about Cracker Barrel
boycott
G'day Rod,
MO>> Is it just me or does Jelly need taking out the back and given a few
MO>> gangster slaps Al Capone style to snap him out of it? I'd be worried
if
MO>> I thought he was serious.
RS> He is serious, and we are worried. Nuts like him, in about 2-3
RS> years, are out murdering gays for Jesus.
:-( A fundy with a gun. What more could you ask for? :-(
/\\ark...
... "I seemed to have misplaced my brain, again." : Steve Hayes
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 28 Mar 97 00:41:07
EID:3014 227c0520
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333ad7ba
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2892816c
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Fredric Rice said this to me about
Educational Experienc
G'day Fredric,
[George Harper]
GH>> The Flood: Noah took several HUNDRED years building the Ark, and
GH>> and back them up with common sense arguments at least as strong as
FR>
Ain't it a pisser! I may be going out on a limb here but I'll jump in and
say that I find the idea of a 200 year old man ripping around the
countryside in a homemade boat a little ridiculous. Am I being too harsh?
mon>> Need anything be said?
FR> They don't even try any more, huh?
To be an idiot? No.
/\\ark...
... T'was a women who drove me to drink. Never had the chance to thank her
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: The IRCops are comin
|Date: 28 Mar 97 00:42:04
EID:5acf 227c0540
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333afd43
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33337bb8
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Rod Swift said this to Jason Harmon about
The
IRCops are comin
G'day Rod,
JH>> classic "Fuck the skull of Jesus!" No one could take offense with
JH>> that.
RS> Oh, ok. For a limited time I have the "FUCK THE SKULL OF JESUS"
RS> picture that was drawn for the newsgroup alt.fuck.the.skull.of.jesus
I'd like it mate. I can grab it off your webpage or you can email it to:
moneill@erebor.apana.org.au or fleagle@verbal.apana.org.au
Apana is currently upgrading their software (fuck Apana shit me to
tears!), so email may bounce. :(
/\\ark...
... snerkum jerkum herkum giggle me Elmo -- David Ragland
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 17:20:24
EID:1579 227b8a80
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333b00b8
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 3e307ca8
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Jim Staal said this to Dan Ceppa about Ha!
JS>> Not at all. Just sticking to the letter of what I actually said. I
JS>> think this stuff out carefully, you know.
DC>> IOW, Jimbo, you careful edit your quotes instead of outright
DC>> lying your ass off.
JS> I careful about what I say, yes.
^
Obviously, Jim. Obviously.
/\\ark...
... "Honest, Centurion! I thought that horse was inflatable!" - Jesus aged
14
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 27 Mar 97 17:29:42
EID:71e2 227b8ba0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333b02e6
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33368b57
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Dan Ceppa said this to Ken Wiens about jesus
needed...
G'day Dan,
RS>> Your own dead homo on a stick is even un-Biblical :)
KW>> That concept is most certainly un-Biblical.
DC> So, Ken: why _do_ you worship a dead homo on a stick?
"Dead homos on a stick. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Only
half a dinar."
/\\ark...
... "I wonder who they could mean," said Loki innocently....
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: God Mark
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Motion Passed
|Date: 27 Mar 97 17:35:17
EID:ae35 227b8c60
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333b0435
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33368f14
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, God Dan said this to God Mark about Motion
Passed
MS>> HOW CAN YOU BOTH USE THE LORDS NAME IN VEIN?
GM>> Fuck off, you silly cow.
GD> I wonder what the poor deluded fool will say now. After all,
GD> there are now 3 Gods in this thread.
The more the merrier IMO. A bit of (un)common sense doesn't go astray.
GD> Let's form a Trinity and send her to hell for her blasphemy!
Maybe we could form a barber shop quartet? All we need is another god. I
don't think it'll hard to find another one.
/\\ark...
... "You have no knowledge of your true potential." - Ramirez.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: God Mark
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Motion Passed
|Date: 27 Mar 97 17:37:00
EID:ae35 227b8ca0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333b049c
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33368fdd
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, God Dan said this to God Glodbreg about Motion
Passed
MS>> HOW CAN YOU BOTH USE THE LORDS NAME IN VEIN?
GG>> It's easy. Just change the "from" field.
GD> Wouldn't it be better to get her to learn how to use her
GD> FUCKING CAPS LOCK KEY first, God Glodberg?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
He's incognito. Doesn't want the peasants falling at his feet and shit.
/\\ark...
... "Zero is a blasphemous tool of your cunning!" 'John Brawley'
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: God Mark
|To: God Dan
|Sub: another for the FAQ
|Date: 28 Mar 97 00:43:03
EID:dc71 227c0560
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 333b05e5
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3336a279
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, God Dan said this to Judith Bandsma about
another for the FAQ
GD> Sincerely your (And Mary Smiths' I'm sure!),
GD> God Dan
GD> PS: Don't use my name in vein.
You infidel! Using *MY* name in vein! I'll bet you control of an
insignificant, mis-guided race that my devout followers can spread more
lies than yours can!
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Joel Pethuel
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 27 Mar 97 22:33:48
EID:a055 227bb420
MSGID: 1:352/666 333B6D33
KS> CT>What is this echo all about?
KS>
KS> About 12,500 miles.
Is that nautical miles??
... nfx v2.6 [C0000] When in doubt....ask someone!
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/666)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: clones
|Date: 28 Mar 97 06:28:04
EID:21bb 227c3380
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333bd017
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 7780e56d
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> J.J. complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Harper <=-
H> escaped post-war Europe and established a research and
H> experimentation center in the jungles of South America.
JH> Do you have any way of verifying this? (And dont you think it
This was also a subtext of the game 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream'.
If you can't trust Harlan Ellison, who can you trust?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: ridiculous belief
|Date: 28 Mar 97 06:31:34
EID:3c2a 227c33e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333bd018
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 55922fa1
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith
<=-
KW> Remember, George doesn't need *facts*. He *believes*. Just like
KW> those suckers you used to fleece back when you were a carnie.
I know, Katherine. But shearing them is so much faster and you even get
to shed a little blood now and then.
I actually had to be NICE to those marks. At least to their faces.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 28 Mar 97 06:33:38
EID:f666 227c3420
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333bd019
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 805f3aa5
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Karl
<=-
KW> Karl, my dear, what ever gave you the idea that you had the ability
to
KW> turn or not turn the Harpies loose?
Get ready for the newest entry on the GOO pages. And this button will be
set apart from all the rest. Care to suggest some good music to add?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 28 Mar 97 06:35:34
EID:f666 227c3460
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333bd01a
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7215bd2b
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Ken <=-
KW> deity that we're talking about here, or a really bad sitcom?
I picture Tim Allen and Roseanne Barr in a sort of Home (Un)Improvements...
only on a global scale.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:31:50
EID:26e2 227c53e0
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333a80d5
MSGID: 1:229/622 333b9ea0
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DM> As I get it together, I shall post pieces of it here for
DM> comments, corrections, suggestions, additions, etc.
DM> Comments?
I think it a wonderful idea and cannot imagine someone better
equipped to tackle it than yourself. You certainly have my
permission to quote anything I contribute that you might deem
relevant.
Good luck! I'll look forward to whatever comes of it.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: George Harper
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 28 Mar 97 06:52:12
EID:7a25 227c3680
MSGID: 1:104/447 2c06e190
TID: GE 1.1+
KD> Then he made a certain percentage of his people homosexual. There must
GLH> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
GLH> And you, I presume, DO have evidence to support your claim?
JB> Yep, your very own source...the bible. Says that god created
JB> EVERYTHING. Weren't you the one that said the bible is inerrant?
Yes, I said the Bible is infallible, ergo inerrant. YES! God IS the Creator
of All Things. Yes, God is the Author of ALL life! Yes, God even created,
via the heterosexual coupling of various pairs, even the persons who
subsequently CHOSE to follow a homosexual life-style. Ergo, you are
TECHNICALLY correct...God DID create the persons who became homosexual.
Don't celebrate too soon...read on!
You merely scored a minor point! Homosexuality IS - and always will remain
-
nothing more, nor less, than a freely-made lifestyle choice. God created
YOU female
human being....He made Don Martin a MALE...that's the set...
Male and Female...no inbetweens, no neutrals...
While there ARE milieu in which persons are raised that MAY pre-dispose
them to selecting a same-gender sexual orientation, the final decision
to enter and live that lifestyle is THEIR FREE WILL CHOICE, freely made.
For the uninformed: milieu a total environment,
encompassing all things that have impact on any designated subject....
(This is the thumbnail definition from my Psych 101 text, c1975)
Now...AGAIN...I challenge you to prove that Homosexuality is the result
of any genetic structure or other physical causal factors...If your
evidence is properly stated, and includes *unbiased* MEDICALLY provable
statements, I will admit defeat, and apologize to all homosexually-oriented
persons for having thought they had a choice. BTW: I decide biases in this
matter, so include the names of your sources, and location, so that I
can, if I want, verify their lack of bias.
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Book
|Date: 28 Mar 97 08:09:01
EID:841b 227c4120
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333bdcda
REPLY: 1:105/24.12 4a713474
Ed Mills said "Book" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> As I get it together, I shall post pieces of it here for
DM> comments, corrections, suggestions, additions, etc.
EM>
EM> Egad! I've had this same idea. Also have vainly saved all my own
EM> posts (what few there have been) and selected ones here & there.
EM>
EM> Wouldn't it be nice to have a chapter containing a short interview
EM> of each HS regular? Someday we could all wind up as a collective
EM> national treasure - like the Mouseketeers or something. Hi mom!
EM> I'm on tee-vee... er, in a book!
You do good stuff, Mills, but you simply haven't rolled
around here long enough to have gathered enough floppy disks
filled with moss. This is a great idea, though. I had
already thought of asking for "favorites" from everyone's
archives, but "observations" (this medium does not do
interviews reliably) from various participants, written
expressly for inclusion in the book, might make an excellent
chapter, or headnotes to the various chapters, or both. I
welcome all such material, either here or by email.
I _will_, incidentally, edit such material for length
and for typos; in all cases where I do anything substantive,
I will run the result by the author for approval. The
chapters will be posted here in any event.
Here are some chapter ideas so far:
---------
o Introduction:
Mainstream vs fringe POVs as determinants in
thinking styles.
o HolySmoke:
The arena. Religious debate. Topics not broached in
"polite" society. The Rules. Being kicked off the
echo. Fundies. WOAs. Religion and politics.
o Gods = >1.5 million: Evidence = 0
The ways in which gods for whose existence no
evidence exists differ from nonexistent gods. The
nature of evidence. Why the "word of God" is not
evidence for the existence of God.
o Floods and The Flood:
Opportunity for the spiritual to leave some physical
footprints. Marine fossils on mountaintops! Four-lane
highways to the top of Arrarat and other Turkish
wonders (including steering wheels). Scientific
reflections on atmospheric pressures, heat of
formation, hydrospheres and the like.
o Why are you so angry?
The fundy interest in delving into the psychology of
anyone asking embarrassing questions.
o Kill the faggots
And keep their partners from embarrassing the family
by coming to the funeral.
o Abortion as a social occasion
The slut deserves to be a mother (after all, MY
mother did).
o The Bible of the Inerrantists
HOPPERS! Pi. General confusions, scribal errors,
conflicting data: God is My Proofreader.
o When prayer is outlawed from schools, only outlaws will pray
in class.
o The Fundy Shuffle
Favorite evasions and logical fallacies.
o Fundy Farewells:
Sheneisms. Pray for you. Pitchforks.
-----------
I welcome suggestions. Warmly.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:48:29
EID:9894 227c5e00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c03d5
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 333a99ea
Judith Bandsma said "Driving Mr. Daisy" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> See if you can figure out on your own (no coaching from
DM> the audience, please!) a plausible explanation for
DM> varicosity and hemorrhoids. I await the attempt with
DM> interest.
JB> Shit, Don. I already uploaded a reply with those
JB> answers to him before I read this. Sorry.
JB> However, I have no doubts that his reply will be 'I
JB> still don't understand how it does that'.
I began my reply before reading the last two lines and
discovered that I was saying essentially the same thing. Is
it great minds? Or is it predictable targets?
Later, you say to the dear boy himself:
KY> If someone didn't have homosexual sex, it wouldn't mean
KY> greed, but rather that they were willing to stand on
KY> principle, no matter what.
JB> Why are you talking 'greed'? Rod's example said that
JB> your whole FAMILY was going to be killed if you didn't
JB> have sex with the agent.
JB> So you are saying that you find gay sex more repulsive
JB> than the deaths of people you love?
JB> How sweet. Have you told your family you feel this way
JB> about them?
It is a good deal easier for him to have to tell them
_that_ than it would be for him to go through with the sex
and have to tell them how much he enjoyed it.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: clones
|Date: 28 Mar 97 12:21:10
EID:a889 227c62a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c03d6
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3339d09e
Richard Smith said "clones" to George Harper,
adding:
MB> There's a HUGE difference between cloning and artificial
MB> insemination.
gh> Of course there is...AI involves the use of semen entering the
gh> cow's uterus, by way of an injection. Cloning is where the
gh> researcher implants live, viable DNA samples into a uterus.
RS> Not quite. Just putting DNA into the uterus isn't enough.
RS> It must be put in an egg before the egg is put into the
RS> uterus. You need to do a bit more reading on it.
George's failure to grasp the finer points of cloning to
one side, have you ever pondered the question of whether or
not Jahweh possesses DNA? The ramifications thereof are
interesting.
Not to mention the fact that the Holy Genome Project
would _really_ require a lot of research grants . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 28 Mar 97 12:27:44
EID:f4f1 227c6360
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c03d7
REPLY: 1:106/4015.0 6caa50eb
Marty Leipzig said "Educational Experienc" to Judith Bandsma,
adding:
JB> Hint for you...it hasn't.
GH> Perhaps YOU need to read up on recent (last 30 years) history?
JB> No, you need to talk to Marty Leipzig...and the Turkish authorities.
JB> No ark. A tribe of natives that are making a killing selling pieces
of
JB> it that they manufacture themselves. And some bandits who are making
a
JB> (literal) killing ransoming back the nuts who try looking for it.
JB> But no ark.
ML> George won't talk to me.
ML> GOAT!
ML> I'm *so* depressed...
He's been asking after you, though. Only last night he
was complaining that everybody here is sending him to Marty
and he doesn't know why (though he _suspects_ that Marty
might be another of those WOAs).
Good to see you back. How's your punctuation mark?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 28 Mar 97 12:31:13
EID:f4e3 227c63e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c03d8
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 3339bb66
Unctuously addressing his point, KY said "Cracker Barrel
boycott" to Rod Swift, adding:
KY> Gays can become Christians, but not while they are gay.
RS> Bullshit. Galatians 2:16-21 states that no one is bound
RS> by the law if they accept Jesus Christ personally.
KY> True, but accepting Him is accepting what He stands for
KY> and accepting what He says is right and wrong, so
KY> therefore one could not accept Him as a homosexual.
Apart from the fact that you _still_ haven't offered any
evidence that your imaginary superfriend is anything more
than a construct of human imagination, where does _Jesus_
(and not those other homophobic motherfuckers) say that
homosexuality is wrong?
Let he who is without sin enjoy the first orgasm!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Harper
|Sub: clones
|Date: 28 Mar 97 12:40:50
EID:2056 227c6500
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c03d9
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b97c98e
George Harper said "clones" to J.J. Hitt,
adding:
JH> Do you have any way of verifying this? (And dont you think it
JH> would be a good idea to confirm such a claim before one goes
JH> and repeats it in an international forum?)
GH> This is sound advice...how come it only applies to claims made by
GH> Christians? I don't see ANY substantiation offered for claims that
GH> the God I follow is a myth,
I have never claimed that. I _have_ asked you for some
evidence that the god you follow _exists_ beyond the level
of human imagination. I have seen bullshit from your end,
attempts to lay down rules for others, assertions that you
once had a teacher who supposed that evidence exists, but no
evidence.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:09:41
EID:af95 227c4920
MSGID: 1:123/67 333b8b8f
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b97c991
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
27 Mar 97 23:06, quoting George Harper to Martin Goldberg:
MG>> to hell. I will not. No hell exists for me. It's only it he
MG>> minds of xtian fools.
GH> I admit the statistical odds appear overwhelming. If you believe your
GH> odds are better than mine...show me the math! I dare you!
It's not his burden to show you the math, you logical train wreck. It
is the burden of the individual making the _positive assertion_ to provide
convincing evidence to support their claim.
If _you_ claim that hell exists, then you get to provide the evidence.
Do
you have any?
GH> And if YOU
GH> are wrong, and the RIGHT choice has a hell, you're gonna fry along
GH> with all the others who made a bad choice, no matter how strong your
GH> denial.
The Cosmic Star Goat (The one and only True God) sent his only forgotten
son,
Billy, to die on the Wholly B-B-Q Pit for our sins.
If you do not BELIEVE in Billy,
you will be eaten on Judgment Day by The Cosmic Star Goat, to stew in the
Wholly Bile for all of eternity.
You can avoid this eternity of punishment by being bathed in the Wholly
Piss of The Cosmic Star Goat and having all of your SINS washed away.
This Cosmic TRUTH is based on faith which is my EVIDENCE of the existence
of the Cosmic Star Goat and his son, Billy. This FAITH is EVIDENCE for
me
but not for you, since you must first BELIEVE in The Cosmic Star Goat for
the EVIDENCE to be revealed to you.
Since you cannot PROVE that The Cosmic Star Goat does not exist, you must
consider the possibility that she does exist, and therefore The Cosmic
Star Goat does exist for all who will BELIEVE in hir.
BELIEF does impact EXISTENCE and all you have to do is to BELIEVE in The
Cosmic Star Goat and she will exist.
No matter how strong your denial, little fundie. Now, why don't you believe
in Goat?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:13:39
EID:c98d 227c49a0
MSGID: 1:123/67 333b8beb
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b97c98f
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
27 Mar 97 22:43, quoting George Harper to Katherine Wintersnight:
KW>> I'm beginning to wonder if there is some sort of assembly line for
KW>> guys like you--it seems that about every four months we get
KW>> another one spouting the same lines, bustling in with the same
KW>> ego, and in the end howling the same lines as they run for the
KW>> door.
GH> Don't hold your breath! you aren't going to get rid of me that
GH> easily... and my ego is worth bustling in with...
Oh, you will, bruised, debunked and bleeding, fleeing to the sanctity
and safety of a hard disk crash.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:17:17
EID:13a8 227c4a20
MSGID: 1:123/67 333b8ce0
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b97c98b
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
27 Mar 97 21:33, quoting George Harper to Jim Staal:
GH> My congregation has a young pastor...this is his second pulpit, but
GH> he
GH> left the first one after four months to come to our church...who is
GH> interested in seeing what sort of things "the opposition" is saying
in
GH> a forum like this one...I am going to start selecting an occasional
GH> sample from the very few rational posts in this echo and printing them
GH> out for him...Don't think it will take a lot of time to print, tho,
GH> since the average post is about 5 rational words, and two screens full
GH> of invective and garbage.
Ask him the following:
Is there a single faith and life after death?
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
With what matters did God occupy him/herself in all the eons before creation?
Why was it necessary to put a protective seal on the brow of Cain if there
were no other people to protect him from?
Did Adam and Eve produce daughters?
Is once saved always saved?
Do the souls of aborted fetuses go to hell?
Do the millions that never heard of Jesus Christ go to hell?
If a man in China died one day after the crufixion is it fair for him to
go
to hell?
If the flood was a fabrication, then how can anyone believe John 3:16?
Do the souls of all the severly mentally retarded go to hell if they do
not believe?
Is it fair for the soul of a nine year old girl that lived in Asia in the
first
century to go to hell because she has never heard of Jesus Christ?
How could only 300 generation possibly produce what we have on earth today?
Why does a bird look like a lizard?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:18:55
EID:6c03 227c4a40
MSGID: 1:123/67 333b8d22
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 3339bb66
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
27 Mar 97 00:12, quoting Ken Young to Rod Swift:
KY> True, but accepting Him is accepting what He stands for and accepting
KY> what He says is right and wrong, so therefore one could not accept Him
KY> as a homosexual.
And your evidence for this is?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:21:32
EID:01ca 227c4aa0
MSGID: 1:123/67 333b8df8
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3339d1cc
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
26 Mar 97 20:47, quoting Richard Smith to Shelby Sherman:
kw>> Ya gotta love it when heathens can't even get their crap
kw>> together enough to work in harmony against the christians!
kw>> cc: Jim Staal
RS> Whines clearly doesn't understand banter. Not a surprize.
Whine doesn't understand that EVERYONE is subject to scrutiny here, whether
they be brain-dead bible thumping fundies, starry-eyed pagans, or Quantum,
non local, Non Zero bait handlers and morphine haters.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:41:18
EID:1583 227c5520
MSGID: 1:123/67 333ba060
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 69e21778
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
25 Mar 97 11:59, quoting Jim Staal to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> Where's your evidence that I have to serve anybody, especially a
SS>> god or a satan that you cannot even demonstrate to exist, BRIGHT
SS>> BOY?
JS> Did I mention the Book of Dylan, Chapter 1?
Thanks for continuing to confirm that you are a total moron.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: George Harper: Poster chi
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:42:52
EID:f38c 227c5540
MSGID: 1:123/67 333ba1b0
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b097e36
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
26 Mar 97 08:35, quoting George Harper to Mark O'neill:
GH> I'm glad I had the presence of mind to set this to adults only
GH> access.... kids hear enough garbage-mouthed profanity as it is.
GH> Suffice it to say: When I was a child, I reasoned as a child
GH> now, being a man, I reason as a man
So this is why you believe in magic gardens, talking snakes, ridiculous
global flood myths, major bodies of water magically parting, the earth
ceasing to rotate on its axis for a day, floating iron axe heads, giant
fish swallowing men, human women being impregnated by holy spirits,
walking on water, changing wine to water and getting out of the grave
after being dead for three days.....right?
GH> All the contradictions you see are only in
GH> your imagination....point one out and see how
GH> many times it is shown how mistaken you are.
The contradictions and myths in the bible are REAL. Shutting yours eyes
tight and murmurring "Is Not" doesn't make them go away.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George L. Harper
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:51:31
EID:553a 227c5660
MSGID: 1:123/67 333ba324
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b097e3d
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
26 Mar 97 09:06, quoting George L. Harper to Karen Davis:
GH> That is stupid! Of course there have been changes in topography, and
GH> there have been thousands of years accumulation of geologic deposits.
GH> However, geology is an unchageable science.
I'm assuming you mean "unchangeable" and this is as ridiculous and
ignorant a statment that I've ever seen in here.
Ever hear of plate techtonics, bright one? Was this theory always
embraced?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: clones
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:06:32
EID:242e 227c58c0
MSGID: 1:123/67 333ba6e5
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 33384346
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
25 Mar 97 16:27, quoting Richard Smith to Shelby Sherman:
RS> * Original msg to: George Harper
RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> Georgie Harper said to Shelby Sherman about clones:
SS>> You remain predictably clueless. Human cloning, just
SS>> like the evidence of life on Mars is just another nail
SS>> in the coffin of your narrow superstitous xtian cult.
gh>> Would you explain the thinking (you DO know what
gh>> thinking IS, don't you?)
RS> Sure do, Georgie. It's what makes that grinding noise in
RS> your skull. You really should get that lubed, you know.
RS> Your ears are starting to smoke.
...Great parbroiling, Richard. Too bad that it will probably be lost
on this clueless simp.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:06:08
EID:a93f 227c48c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be507
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b8d681c
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
GH> of you can also explain why *I* should accept *his* account as
GH> evidence, since he obviously is one of your like-thinkers. I doubt
Because he's been there. Up close and personal. You rely on 3rd hand
accounts from someone who 'says' they know what they are talking about.
Please notice the FACT that we aren't relaying to you what Marty will say.
Only that you do need to talk to him directly.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:08:30
EID:a93f 227c4900
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be508
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b8d681d
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
GH> kosher and what isn't>. The account CLEARLY places grasshoppers in
GH> the category of edible SMALL INSECTS. This means it has to have at
GH> LEAST 6 legs...read it again if you want to check my comprehension.
I have read it...numerous times. It says FOUR legs...count 'em...4. I
don't have to check your comprehension, only your reading ability. And
I don't see how you get 6 out of the WORD four.
GH> Rabbits DO chew a cud, by the way...watch one, sometime. And because
You are talking to someone who grew up on a farm. Rabbits do NOT chew a
cud. They only have one stomach. Only ruminants chew a cud. Rabbits,
however, DO eat their first shit of the morning. Perhaps this is what you
are thinking of.
GH> a bat has hollow bones, and wings, it is properly placed in the
GH> category of birds...
Wrong on the hollow bones. Bats are MAMMALS. They do not share any
characteristics with birds except wings. And even those wings are NOT
birdlike in either structure or form.
GH> the contrary, presented since the postulation of this theory, has been
GH> proven scientifically to be inaccurate or blatantly counterfeit. you say "Pilt-Down Man"?>
You can't accept partial evolution. That's like being a little bit pregnant.
Doesn't happen.
And can YOU remember exactly WHO the perpetrators of Pilt-Down Man were?
And who eventually discovered and announced the fact of the fraud?
Didn't think so. You see, one of the people who put this hoax together was
a priest of the Church of England. And the people who uncovered it, when
they finally had the technology to do so, were scientists.
I do hope you can do better than this. My 8 year old granddaughter has a
better grasp on facts than you do.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:17:54
EID:a93f 227c4a20
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be509
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b8d681e
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
GH> Genesis 9:28 (The Living Bible): "After the Flood, Noah lived 350
GH> years and died at the age of 950 years". Look it up...in any version
GH> or translation of your choosing...
That does not say a word about how long it took him to build the ark.
And no, those numbers are NOT in my KJV.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:19:22
EID:9ea6 227c4a60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be50a
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b8d681f
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
GH> If the daughter of a "fundamentalist mother" was obedient to that
GH> mother, regardless of her age and lack of education, she would not BE
GH> pregnant...unless YOU know of some method of sexual congress that can
GH> happen remotely...and tell us where to get the remote control, too,
GH> please...
When the mother has never explained the facts of life to her daughter,
how is the daughter to know what to say no to? Especially when the person
getting her into such a position is another adult...who she DOES know that
she is expected to respect and OBEY.
GH> Better 2 lives ruined by giving birth than by the guilt that would
Oh how absolutely loving of you.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:23:58
EID:9755 227c4ae0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be50b
REPLY: 1:106/4015.0 6caa50eb
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Marty complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
ML> George won't talk to me.
ML> GOAT!
ML> I'm *so* depressed...
Yeah, I know. He expects US to relay your words to him so he can say
'aha! This is second hand information and how is that any different from
what I've been spewing?'
He's a twit. And possible Harpy bait but I won't promise that.
BTW. When do I get a decent picture of you to GOO for the page?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:29:16
EID:a6f1 227c4ba0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be50c
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3339bcb6
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Dan complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Sally <=-
DC> Don't ask me to correct it. I'm still having problems getting
DC> E-mail working right!
Dan, get a Juno account. Even if you end up having to dial a toll-number,
these are flash sessions and even the largest packet I've gotten has taken
less than a minute to d/l (230 msg). And the Juno account itself is free.
Trust me, you need this.
... ...The Ron & Nancy Reagan Computer: No colon, no period, no memory.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:34:50
EID:2825 227c4c40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be50d
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333a80d5
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Don complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to The <=-
DM> As I get it together, I shall post pieces of it here for
DM> comments, corrections, suggestions, additions, etc.
DM> Comments?
Will you need holographic permission or will a statement here do?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:42:34
EID:ae2d 227c4d40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be50e
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b899308
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Lou <=-
GH> marry only another JEW? I was under the impression that it was a
GH> BLOOD purity tactic. You can't have it both ways,
It is a religious thing, George. However patriarchal the Jewish religion
may be, if your MOTHER was not a Jew, YOU are not a Jew. And is only
adhered to by the the super orthodox Hassidim today. (Of course, the
super Hassidim don't believe in shitting on the Sabbath, so we're talking
a whole 'nuther mind set, here)
And Catholics prohibit marriage outside of that religion. Is THAT a
racial purity thing, too?
GH> JewBoy...either it is merely a religious differentiation or it is an
^^^^^^
Bigot!
GH> Further, it MUS be allowed under the rules of this echo, so long as
the
GH> atheists, of whatever ethnicity, are allowed to continue using
Of course it is allowed. Just don't expect not to be called the diseased
afterbirth of a drunken cluster fuck performed on a syphillitic camel in
return.
... Keep America Beautiful.... emigrate.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:49:20
EID:bf9f 227c4e20
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be50f
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b89930a
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to David <=-
GH> infallibility and literality of the COMPLETE Word Of God, unchanged
GH> since it was written. These Christians accept wwithout question that
Oh, you are reading it in the original Hebrew and Aramaic?
Or did 'god' write it in English? And why was the Council of Nicea necessary
to decide which 'god written' books really belonged in the official bible?
And why are there at least 40 different ENGLISH versions...some of which
contradict the others very badly?
Unchanged, huh? God wrote it, huh?
Then why is the bible so much different today from one published 100 years
ago? And why ISN'T my Shakespeare changed by the same amount? Shakespeare
was only a man, after all.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: maxi-post
|Date: 28 Mar 97 09:54:20
EID:c05c 227c4ec0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333be510
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b8b2ec9
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to All <=-
GH> Given the above disclaimer...which puts me on a par with each and all
GH> of you.. let the games begin...
Sweetie, you ain't on a par with Lennie Bernier or George Mooth. You'd
have to raise your IQ to be even that dumb. (They don't talk to anyone,
they just post canned tracts)
As for forwarding anything to the moderator about anything that has been
said to you...I can tell you what he'll say (just wait, you'll see for
yourself);
You came in here of your own free will. If you don't like what happens
or the responses you get, you can leave the same way. As long as you
insist on pushing your version of things at other people, prepare to take
the heat. NO ONE gets special consideration here for anything.
... Since you can't laugh at yourself, please allow the rest of us.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: George Harper
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 28 Mar 97 14:34:30
EID:d854 227c7440
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b899308
MSGID: 1:229/622 333bd7f9
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of George Harper to Lou Dripkin:
GH> [...] You can't have it both ways,
GH> JewBoy...either it is merely a religious differentiation or it is an
GH> ethnicity issue.
GH> By the way...for all readers...the ETHNIC slur I used was intentional.
Oh, we were really bothered wondering whether it just slipped out
of your fetid mind or not. Who gives a shit? We know you're only
here to evangelize the loving word of Jesus.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: All
|Sub: Something of intereste . . .
|Date: 25 Mar 97 21:06:48
EID:1dc6 2279a8c0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33bec025
GID GIGO+ sn 1 at gigo vsn 0.99.970109
The following letter was distributed by James Randi, and I
thought that some of the folks around here would find it of
interest, so I bumped it over here. If you want to respond to Alan Hale,
the address given to do so is ahale@NMSU.Edu . . .
* Copied (from: NETMAIL) by Richard Smith using timEd 1.01.
[ Even though not dealing with skepticism, the following
letter from Alan Hale should be of interest to many readers of this mailing
list. Support of legitimate science is something that I'm sure we all wish
to encourage. JR ]
Greetings everyone -- yes, another one of those blanket
e-mails that I send out to folks from time to time. I don't
think I know all of you personally, but at the very least we may have mutual
acquaintances who suggested I include you in this mailing. To those of you
whom I don't know (as well as
those whom I do), please forgive my taking the liberty of
sending you a message like this.
The message which follows is an open letter to any and all
young scientists who, like me, are frustrated, angry, bitter, etc. about
the sorry state of science funding in our society today, and who have been
struggling just to get a decent
career started. Due to my current "15 minutes of fame" that I am receiving
as a result of Comet Hale-Bopp, I believe I have an opportunity to raise
some awareness of this issue, and
possibly to get things turned around at least a little bit.
Anyway, please take the time to read through this, and if you feel like
responding to it, please do so. Most importantly,
please pass this around to anyone and everyone you think might be interested
in responding; I'm trying to reach as large an audience as I can, and the
more responses I can get from those whose experiences have been like mine,
the better the chances I have of actually being able to accomplish something.
Thanks,
Alan
--------------------------------------------------------------- An open
letter to the scientists of my generation:
I am Alan Hale, the co-discoverer of Comet Hale-Bopp which, as I'm sure
you're aware, is getting a tremendous amount of media attention at this
time. Like I'm sure is true for many of you, I was inspired by the scientific
discoveries and events taking place during my childhood to pursue a career
in science only to find, after completing the rigors of undergraduate and
graduate school, that the opportunities for us to have a
career in science are limited at best and are which I usually describe as
"abysmal." Based upon my own experiences, and
those of you with whom I have discussed this issue, my
personal feeling is that, unless there are some pretty drastic changes in
the way that our society approaches science and
treats those of us who have devoted our lives to making some of our own
contributions, there is no way that I can, with a clear conscience, encourage
present-day students to pursue a career in science. It really pains me a
great deal to say
something like that, but I feel so strongly about this that I have publicly
made this statement at almost every opportunity I have been given.
I am trying to use the media attention that is currently being focused upon
me to raise awareness of this state of affairs, and perhaps start to effect
those changes that will allow me to convey a more positive message to the
next generation. So far, I'm sensing a certain reluctance among the media
to discuss this issue, as they seem far more interested in items which I
consider to be irrelevant and unimportant. But I
intend to keep hammering away at this, and I'd like to believe that eventually
some are going to sit up and take notice. I am also attempting to schedule
meetings with some of our
government leaders, to see if I can at least get some
acknowledgement from Washington that this is a problem that
needs to be dealt with.
My reason for writing to you is to ask your help. I know that I'm not alone
in being frustrated about the current prospects for pursuing any kind of
decent career within science, and I'm quite sure that many of you have "horror
stories" about your searches for decent employment that are quite similar
to my own. I'd like to hear them. I'd especially like to hear from those
of you who are on your second or third or fourth
post-doc, or who have left the field as a result of the
employment situation, or who have experienced severe personal difficulties
(e.g., break-up of a marriage, etc.). I realize that some of these might
be painful to discuss, but I'd like to show that we are not a bunch of impersonal
statistics, but that we're human beings trying to make an honest living
and perhaps make a contribution or two to society while we're at it. Speaking
of statistics, though, if you received any
information about the numbers of applicants to some of the
positions you applied to -- which was often a 3-digit number in my case
-- I'd like to hear that, too.
Please e-mail your stories to me at ahale@nmsu.edu, with a
subject line of "horror stories" or something like that.
Please let me know if you would prefer to remain anonymous
when I share these stories with the press and the government. Also, please
pass this message on to any of your friends and colleagues who might be
interested in sharing their stories
with me, and keep in mind that I would like to receive stories from as many
scientific disciplines as possible. (Because of the amount of e-mail traffic
I'm receiving these days, along with everything else that's going on, I
probably won't be able to acknowledge each message individually.)
Thank you for your time, and I hope to hear from you. Perhaps, with the
opportunity we have before us right now, we have the chance to make a difference.
Sincerely,
Alan Hale
--- Email headers follow ---
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21:06:38 1997
Received: from localhost (root@localhost)
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Mar 1997 00:06:50-0500
From: ahale@NMSU.Edu
To: broadcast-randi-hotlineaa@ssr.com
Subject: An open letter
Precedence: bulk
Message-Id: <97Mar26.000650-0500_
est.36096-28822+1@redhotmomma.ssr.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 00:06:48 -0500
---
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: George Harper
|Sub: clones
|Date: 26 Mar 97 09:27:18
EID:5ea5 227a4b60
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 342 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 1633d2f6
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
This message was from RICHARD SMITH to KARL SCHNEIDER,
and was forwarded to you by KARL SCHNEIDER.
-------------------------
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* Original msg to: George Harper
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
George Harper said to Karl Schneider about Re: clones:
ha> on this planet? Where does the spark of life for a
ha> cloned being,
KS> DNA, digestion and respiration.
gh> Okay...where is the starting point?
Which starting point? You didn't quote enough of the
conversation to allow a person to understand your point of
reference. BTW, where (precisely) IS the Garden of Eden?
With modern maps, etc., you should be able to give me an
accurate set of coordinates, and please back them up with
citations proving your point.
gh> Where did the VERY FIRST DNA string originate?
DNA string? Is that like Silly String? I know of no DNA
string. Maybe you meant DNA _strand_. If so, so me how the
VERY FIRST DNA _strand_ is carried down in all life today.
It should be easy for you to do, right? BTW, please show us
exactly where, in the Garden of Eden, YHVH got the dust that
it allegedly used to create Adam.
gh> What is the Genesis of all life forms to ever
gh> have existed or that ever WILL exist?
I love this disingenuousness. There's nothing like trying
to predispose a question towards the answer you want (which
is, btw, SHODDY reasoning) with just a capital letter.
Firstly, show me how the very first life has anything to do
with ANY future life. Why should any of us work at a
connection for you when we don't know that there WILL be a
connection between the very first life, and some nebulous
future life, perhaps aeons away? Your suppositions are very
weak here.
gh> Go back as many aeons as you wish, but isolate for me
gh> what happened to create the first atom in the universe,
gh> to use as seed for the formation of all else.
Please, first, show me how there has to be a connection
between the first atom created, and all of life. Take your
time, but I need this exactly. Show every connection.
gh> Even
gh> scientists have to agree that it all started somewhere.
All WHAT had to start somewhere? The universe? How is the
universe connected to the formation of life? And so what
about general concensus . . . what is your point?
gh> Ephemerists charting the course of stars to work up
gh> navigational data sets can trace the stars' movements
gh> backwards to a point of origin, but they cannot
gh> pinpoint what started them in their courses.
And, praytell, aside from Shakespeare's observation, how do
the stars affect our lives?
gh> But maybe you're more learned than these "hacks" who do
gh> nothing more than push buttons and manipulate numbers
gh> for a living.
LOL! Georgie, you're precious! Stars can be traced back
MATHEMATICALLY. Please show me the mathematical equations
that will allow you to trace life back. I'm sure REAL
mathematicians around here (there are several here) would be
real interested in this answer. You might even be able to
get some help from John Brawley, though don't expect him to
tell you there was zero life here at one time.
KS> Bullshit. Frankenstein made his creature with a
KS> transplanted brain, you moron.
gh> Very well made point...how does it feel to be bested
gh> by someone you name as intellectually inferior?
You concede the point yet you claim to have bested him? Now
THAT'S chutzpah! LOL . . .
gh> Want to play at semantics?
If that's all you know how to do, sure.
gh> I got VERY high marks in my courses in college,
And Adolph Hitler was quite a good artist. Your point?
gh> but admittedly am a bit rusty...
I wouldn't have cast you for Nick Chopper's role. I would
have cast you for the Scarecrow instead . . . or perhaps
more tellingly, as the lion . . .
gh> you MAY stand a chance...
That's like saying that he may die someday, considering who
his opponent is . . .
gh> if you can keep the outsiders from jumping in and
gh> confusing things.
Don't worry, we won't confuse him at all. He can focus on
the subject at hand. You, on the other hand, are probably a
goner, especially considering your dependency on urban myth,
the movies, and fairy tales to define popular culture for
you.
ha> research and experimentation center in the jungles of
ha> South America. The center was dedicated to cloning in an
ha> attempt to recreate Adolph Hitler. No experiments have
ha> been successful, to this point.
KS> Another idiotic fundy urban myth.
gh> Dr. Mengele is a myth?
Where, precisely, did Karl say that any _person_ was a myth?
You stupid fundies can't even make a decent strawman. He
DID say that the Boys From Brazil plotline stupidly believed
by YOU was an Urban Myth. I've seen it discussed in the
Urban Myth echo, AAMOF, and he's right: it IS an Urban Myth.
Next thing you know, you're going to tell me that you
believe in Stepford, Pennsylvania . . . but then, you
fundies would rather believe fairy tales than reality any
day, right?
gh> Just like Jesus Christ (something Alan Hess claimed)???
Jesus Christ was a myth? Thanx for the confirmation. Who's
Alan Hess? My Merriam-Webster, under Hess, only shows:
Dame Myra Hess (English pianist, 1890-1965)
Walther Richard Rudolph Hess (German Nazi Politician
1894-1987)
Victor Franz Hess (Austrian Physicist, 1883-1964)
Walter Rudolph Hess (Swiss Physiologist, 1881-1973)
But no Alan Hess. You'd think that if he was someone
important, they'd've had him in there, wouldn't you,
especially considering how obscure the people are that they
DO have in there! BTW, there is no mention of a Dr. Mengele
either, so I went to four other sources: A Pocket History of
the United States by Nevins & Commager (ISBN 0-671-42697-4),
Michael Howard's War In European History (ISBN
0-19-289095-6), the Columbia History of the World by Garraty
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ "Dither", said Pooh, as his Parkinson's kicked in.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: clones
|Date: 26 Mar 97 09:27:19
EID:d67a 227a4b60
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 342 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 1633d2f7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
RS> * Original msg to: George Harper
RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> George Harper said to Karl Schneider about Re: clones:
RS> gh> Even
RS> gh> scientists have to agree that it all started somewhere.
RS> All WHAT had to start somewhere? The universe? How is the
RS> universe connected to the formation of life? And so what
RS> about general concensus . . . what is your point?
Umph...this msg got addressed to me; I forwarded it to GH.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ If a mirror reverses left and right, why not up and down?
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 26 Mar 97 09:27:20
EID:0882 227a4b60
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 342 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 1633d2fc
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
RS> Ken Young said to Rod Swift about Exemplifying examples 1/:
RS> Certainly. So why complain about homosexuals and abortion?
RS> If you don't want a homosexual, don't seek one out. If you
RS> it that you claim that people digging in their backyards can
RS> hear sounds originating from Hell, when we've managed to
RS> drill over a mile into the Earth?
Actually, I have personally assisted in drilling wells over 20,000
feet deep...
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ That light at the end of the tunnel is a train....
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Factory Fundies
|Date: 27 Mar 97 08:32:13
EID:fcb6 227b4400
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 343 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 1635178c
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
FR>sa> Is there something about factories that attracts fundies?
FR>Seriously I've noticed higher fundy counts on the assembly lines than
in the
FR>office cubicles. It may be unrelated. Perhaps working on the assembly
line
FR>allows people's minds to wander unproductively and they end up contriving
the
FR>elaborate fundy fantasies.
Which might help explain the significant percentage of products that
immediately burst into flame when plugged in.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Rush Limbaugh thinks he's a wit. He's half right.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Christanic Terrorists
|Date: 28 Mar 97 18:14:22
EID:4c54 227c91c0
MSGID: 1:229/622 333c0a7e
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 333997f6
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Richard complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Harpies
<=-
RS> No. I'm implying that the Harpies, if they can stomach it,
RS> may have a nice meal in you. I have yet to find a woman who
Richard, please go to:
http://www.concentric.net/~Jbandsma/harpies.htm
Read the text. VERY carefully.
Then, remember to be wary of what you ask for.
... from the desk of Harpy Central.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Dead god
|Date: 28 Mar 97 15:55:44
EID:d62c 227c7ee0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333c3a7e
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 333acc2f
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> John complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to DAVID <=-
JM> especially since tomorrow is Dead God On A Stick Day.
Is THAT why the fucking nasty little rugrats next door aren't in school?
(I can never bother with this spring holiday)
OH! It IS a holiday. And Leo had to work today. At double time and a half.
Or is that triple time for holidays? Can we get rid of the religinoids and
keep their holidays?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 28 Mar 97 16:01:30
EID:84ba 227c8020
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333c3a7f
REPLY: 1:207/212 ffa2c42e
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Karen complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Ken <=-
KD> So you would execute a 12 year old who sought an abortion for a
KD> pregnancy caused by incest?
While patting the sperm donor on the back and congratulating him for
getting such a fine, tight, young piece.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Christanic Terrorists
|Date: 28 Mar 97 16:11:34
EID:4c54 227c8160
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333c3a80
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3339b3ba
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Richard complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to George
<=-
RS> She answered you, didn't she? That in and of itself shows
RS> that she's mastered reading absolute assholes. Only foreign
RS> languages are more difficult . . .
I can do it in one of those, too. It just takes longer.
gh> I am certain that any woman spontaneously aborting or
gh> miscarrying will seek medical assistance to prevent
RS> Nice police state you're setting up here. Shouldn't you be
RS> handing out brown shirts . . . ?
He doesn't realize that some anti-choice groups are already laying plans
for 'when' abortion is illegal again? Or that most of the groups say that
every miscarriage will have to be investigated to make sure the woman did
NOTHING to induce it.
gh> sex, an unwanted pregnancy is an indication of
gh> incompetence on the part of the woman...
How long has parthenogensis been common in primates? Is that the reason
there are more women than men? Gee, last time I looked it took 2 to make
a baby. But, of course, Georgie-porgie is one of those who believe that
only the woman is responsible for reproduction. His sperm has NOTHING whatever
to do with it.
RS> Ah, nice little antiwomen stance here. So she was just
RS> asking for it, eh? She deserved to be raped? It was
RS> somehow her fault?
No, you should be on the pill and carry condoms just in case you might be
raped. Then you can ask your rapist to stop beating the shit out of you
long enough to put on a condom and allow you to get some spermicidal jelly.
Riiiiiight!
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 28 Mar 97 16:20:16
EID:7928 227c8280
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333c3a81
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3339b3f8
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Richard complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to George
<=-
RS> No, she doesn't. Every few years this claim is made, and
RS> it's never substantiated. If you can, do so Georgie. If
Every few YEARS????? In this echo, it's about once every 6 weeks. With
the claimant saying 'didn't you know...they JUST found the ark'.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 28 Mar 97 13:59:43
EID:d625 227c6f60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c20f1
REPLY: 1:207/212 ffa2c42e
Karen Davis said "Accepting Reality" to Ken Wiens,
adding:
KW> Yes it does INCLUDE this person also. The only grounds
KW> I see for abortion are if it is necessary to save
KW> the life of the mother by so doing.
KD> So you would execute a 12 year old who sought an
KD> abortion for a pregnancy caused by incest?
No, he would not. He has been very clear on this. He
wants the state to off the little slut _for_ him (and he
wonders why some here regard him as a disagreeable person).
Later, you say to Mr. Niceguy:
KW> No problem. Another human being is prevented from having a
KW> life because of the selfish, self-righteous attitudes of
KW> those who choose to abort,i.e., prevent another human from
KW> having a life.
KD> It's selfish to want to live? To have a real life as
KD> opposed to the destroyed shell of a life an unplanned
KD> pregnancy brings?
Wanna see _lots_ of unwanted children who were _not_
aborted? Go to your nearest penitentiary.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 2/2
|Date: 28 Mar 97 14:10:35
EID:c02b 227c7140
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c20f2
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d763c
Doug Schwandt said "ACLU News 01-30-97: C 2/2" to Karen Davis,
adding:
>>> Continued from previous message
KD> KD> No, it does NOT mean that. Churches don't really
KD> KD> need a say in politics - their members can vote
KD> KD> their own consciences just fine. More than tha they
KD> KD> have no right to because they're given such special
KD> KD> rights otherwise.
KD> KY> WHat special rights? Others can have a say, why not
KD> KY> religious leaders?
KD> They're not taxed, among other things, while still
KD> receiving many government paid services. Firefighters
KD> will put out a fire in a church despite there having
KD> been no taxes paid towards that service by that
KD> building.
DS> But the MEMBERS of that church pay taxes for the fire
DS> protection and the other services that the community
DS> affords to its residents.
Right, and the taxes they pay are for the protection of
their homes and businesses, yet their churches get coverage
for free. Betcha that if a gaggle of WOAs decided to build a
meeting house in your town, the place would be classified as
a "private club" by your friendly local assessor and taxed.
DS> Conversely, if your house caught fire, would you expect
DS> the fire department to refuse to come extinguish the
DS> fire because you belong to the First Baptist Church?
Conversely to what? This is about as stupid a nonexample
as something Jelly might dream up. I would expect them to
put out a fire in my house because I am a tax-paying
resident within the community they serve. Whether I am a
Baptist, Jew, WOA, Satanist, Pagan, Catholic, or univerally
indifferent, that is their responsibility.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 1/2
|Date: 28 Mar 97 14:23:16
EID:c0db 227c72e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c20f3
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d763d
Doug Schwandt said "ACLU News 01-30-97: C 1/2" to Karen Davis,
adding:
KD> KY> I am very much for the Constitution, but that has nothing to do
with
KD> KY> "separation of church and state." If it does, could you please
show
KD> KY> me where those words appear in it?
KD> Non establishment plus freedom of religion = separation
KD> of church and state. It's that simple. Within the
KD> lifetime of the authors the phrase was being used, so
KD> it is irrelevant that they did not happen to choose
KD> those words for the Constitution.
DS> Oh, I see... I guess that means that those words were
DS> not EXPLICITLY used and that we are all victims of
DS> INTERPRETATION? Relevance has nothing to do with it.
DS> The drafters of the Constitution did not come equipped
DS> with crystal balls so that they may have been able to
DS> see EXACTLY how their words would be perverted over the
DS> years.
The only crystal balls here are yours, Dougie Baby; pity
you appear to be trying to think with them. For some
background on what the framers had in mind with the First
Amendment, you might look at Virginia's religious freedom
statue drafted by Jefferson (and about which he was proud
enough to have the fact of his authorship inscribed on his
tomb, while his role in the Declaration of Independence is
undeclared there). Separation of church and state is so
explicit in that statute that spelling it out was not
considered necessary in the more generalized Constitution.
KD> KY> People are told they can't have nativity scenes on
KD> KY> govt. ownded property, can't have student led
KD> KY> prayers in schools, can't even have the ten
KD> KY> commandments in court rooms. Don't you see
KD> KY> religious freedom being violated here?
KD> No. I see government being prevented from encouraging religion.
DS> I see religious freedom being violated. If the student
DS> wants to pray, s/he should be free to.
Pay attention to what Jelly is saying, silly though it
often is: he is _not_ talking about a student praying in
school if s/he wants to: he is talking about students being
_led_ in prayers, whether or not they wish to be. Such led
prayer _is_ a violation of the religious freedom of the
students who do not wish to participate and who do not wish
to be ostracised, as well as a violation of the
establishment clause by being sanctioned by a government
agency.
KD> People don't need nativity scenes on
DS> government owned property. There's KD>likely a church right next door
DS> that would be very glad to have it. KD>Government property is for ALL
DS> citizens, not just Christians. To have a KD>nativity scene there would
DS> indicate that this was somehow the view of KD>that government agency.
DS> I really wonder how you'd feel if you didn't KD>belong to the majority
DS> religion, Ken.
DS> In a country where the majority supposedly rules, I see a gross
DS> inconsistency here. If the Moslems wanted to erect a display for
DS> Ramadan or one of their other holy days, it's not likely that the
DS> Government would object.
The majority does rule, but it does not get to
tyrannize. In your Moslem hypothetical example, you left out
_where_ these folks might wish to erect their display. This
is crucial. If they want to put it up on private property or
in front of their mosque, who _could_ object? If they want
to put it up on the courthouse lawn, they can go fuck
themselves with my blessing first.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 28 Mar 97 14:37:51
EID:298b 227c74a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333c20f4
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d763e
Doug Schwandt said "A Toast to Dracula." to Dan Ceppa,
adding:
DC> MG> Then why does the famous creationist Laurie Appleton say:
DC> LA> "Famous" eh?? My statement was, of course stated as a
DC> LA> QUESTION!
DC>The only unaswered question, Laurie, is if you are capable
DC>of thought.
DC>Per your answer, you are losing, big time.
DC>Now, do tell us about your trip to Mt St Helens with
DC>Harry Truman.
DS> WHAT? You don't know about HARRY TRUMAN, the old guy that made
DS> NATIONAL HEADLINES when he refused to evacuate his home just before
DS> Mount St. Helens erupted? There was even a song written in his honor!
DS> Now, the question is this: did you KNOW the above information, or did
DS> you honestly (and mistakenly!!!) think that Laurie was actually
DS> tooling around with old "Give 'em hell Harry?"
If you are going to go away for a while and then come
back, you do _not_ get to bitch about things that have
transpired in your absence without looking even more
ignorant than you generally do when you are "right on top"
of the situation. It was Laurie himself that made that
identification.
Suits him, actually.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 28 Mar 97 15:35:00
EID:d01b 227c7c60
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6cbb9642
Don Martin, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Marty
Leipzig
DM> Marty Leipzig said "Educational Experienc" to Judith Bandsma,
DM> adding:
JB> Hint for you...it hasn't.
GH> Perhaps YOU need to read up on recent (last 30 years) history?
JB> No, you need to talk to Marty Leipzig...and the Turkish authorities.
JB> No ark. A tribe of natives that are making a killing selling pieces
of
JB> it that they manufacture themselves. And some bandits who are making
a
JB> (literal) killing ransoming back the nuts who try looking for it.
JB> But no ark.
ML> George won't talk to me.
ML> GOAT!
ML> I'm *so* depressed...
DM> He's been asking after you, though. Only last night he
DM> was complaining that everybody here is sending him to Marty
DM> and he doesn't know why (though he _suspects_ that Marty
DM> might be another of those WOAs).
Yes, indeedy. Yet another WOA allied to lay waste to such
fundementia. Hopefully, I'll be able to participate more than
once a week for a while. (Damned work is really interfering
with my HolySmokianisms..)
DM> Good to see you back. How's your punctuation mark?
Sigmoid; as I told Sigmund.
... "Who is this `God' person anyway?" - Oolon Coluphid ___ Blue Wave/386
v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 28 Mar 97 15:36:00
EID:10f4 227c7c80
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6cbb9643
George Harper, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Judith
Bandsma
JB> No, you need to talk to Marty Leipzig...and the Turkish authorities.
JB> No ark. A tribe of natives that are making a killing selling pieces
of it
JB> that they manufacture themselves. And some bandits who are making a
JB> (literal) killing ransoming back the nuts who try looking for it.
JB>
JB> But no ark.
GH> You're the second person to refer me to Marty. Perhaps one
GH> of you can also explain why *I* should accept *his* account as
GH> evidence, since he obviously is one of your like-thinkers.
Because, you goob, I'm a multi-degreed petroleum geologist
whose actually BEEN to the freaking place. Several times, in
fact.
GH> I doubt
GH> he would say anything that would contradict YOUR supposed evidence,
GH> just as you fail to believe anything a Christian witness would add
on
GH> MY behalf...it's called "stale mate"...
No, it's called "you burying your head in the sand before the
WOA geologist hands it to you on a silver platter". Look, you
schmuck, I'm here and just champing to give you the thorough
evisceration you so richly deserve.
'Smatter, chuckles? Scared to run with the big dogs?
Gutless wonder.
... Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it: Creationist Concrete.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: George Harper
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 28 Mar 97 15:37:00
EID:10f4 227c7ca0
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6cbb9644
George Harper, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Judith
Bandsma
JB> GH> don't know what relevance that number has to my claim of
JB> GH> infallibility of the Bible...care to show the link? Or is that
JB>
JB> Leviticus. Says grasshoppers have 4 legs, bats are birds and rabbits
chew
JB> their cud.
JB>
JB> So, either somebody screwed up when they counted or grasshoppers EVOLVED
JB> 2 extra legs in less than 5000 years. And you can't say we don't know
JB> what grasshoppers were like then without admitting to the fact of
GH> evolution
JB> It just doesn't work.
GH> I just read the account you cited. It is in the dietary laws kosher and what isn't>. The account CLEARLY places grasshoppers in
GH> the category of edible SMALL INSECTS. This means it has to have at
GH> LEAST 6 legs...read it again if you want to check my comprehension.
We did. You lack it totally.
GH> Rabbits DO chew a cud, by the way...watch one, sometime.
Rabbits are diurnal coprovores; and are not ruminants (you
biological idiot).
GH> And because
GH> a bat has hollow bones, and wings, it is properly placed in the
GH> category of birds...
So, by that idiocy; pterosaurs, ichthyosaurs, elasmosaurs and
angler fish are birds.
You paleozoological idiot.
How many birds have fur? (Chiropterans are quite heavily furred
and are quite mammalian; your big book of fairy tales
notwithstanding.)
GH> I have not claimed evolution doesn't happen. If you can prove that
I
GH> HAVE said otherwise, bring on the evidence. I *DO* deny that species
GH> Homo Sapiens originated as a product of evolution.
You hubristic homocentric. Man [ol' _Homo sap._] is an animal;
and as much a product of organic evolution as any other Terran
organism. You Biblocentric nonsense changes nothing of the fact
of biology, zoology and anthropology.
GH> Any evidence to
GH> the contrary, presented since the postulation of this theory, has been
GH> proven scientifically to be inaccurate or blatantly counterfeit.
Since Richard Leakey doesn't post here, allow me to say "Fuck
you" in his behalf.
GH> you say "Pilt-Down Man"?>
Sure can. It's a classic case of church propagated fraud
ferreted out by the modes and methods of science.
... Creationist: Proof that evolution is a non-directed phenomenon. ___
Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Contradictions
|Date: 28 Mar 97 14:31:00
EID:1f5c 227c73e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 33c62252
-=> Quoting George Harper to Mark O'neill <=-
Good morning, George.
MO> If the bible is infallible why are there so many contradictions in it,
MO> dickhead.
GH> I'm glad I had the presence of mind to set this to adults only
GH> access.... kids hear enough garbage-mouthed profanity as it is.
It's really not a very polite echo, George. You should have read a bit
before you jumped in and start posting. It won't get any better, either.
Those who choose to greet you with vulgarity generally continue to use
it as a tactic.
There are a few of us, however, who religiously eschew the trash talk.
GH> Suffice it to say: When I was a child, I reasoned as a child
GH> now, being a man, I reason as a man
Could we examine some of that reasoning?
GH> All the contradictions you see are only in
GH> your imagination....point one out and see how
GH> many times it is shown how mistaken you are.
I imagine you will get a lot of responses to that one. If they try to
tell you that the Bible says Pi = 3.00, give me a yell .
Fundamentalists have managed to find clever apologitics to cover most
of the glaring contradictions in the Bible (like which was created
first, man or the birds). Not convincing to anyone else, but at least
acceptible to themselves. But there are lots of meaningless little
contradictions in the Bible that cannot be fixed. Please address this one
for me:
(From the RSV):
1 Kings 5:15 Solomon also had seventy thousand burden bearers and
eighty thousand hewers of stone in the hill country, (16) besides
Solomon's three thousand three hundred chief officers who were over the
work.
2 Chronicles 2:18 (RSV) Seventy thousand of them he assigned to bear
burdens, and eighty thousand to quarry in the hill country, and three
thousand six hundred as overseers to make the people work.
Check the context if you like. It is perfectly clear that these two
passages are describing exactly the same historical situation, and they
differ in a way that cannot be reconciled through clever apologetics. Was
it 3300 or 3600?
It's a contradiction. You can say it doesn't matter (and I'd agree). You
can say it's irrelevant (and I'd say you were right). But you can't say
(as you already have) that it is "only in my imagination".
In fact, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles are full of such minor detail
contradictions - exactly what you would expect from histories written by
different authors who occasionally referred to different sources.
Take care.
... Doubt is the key to knowledge. - Persian Proverb
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08H18 (Registered)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: AHEM???
|Date: 28 Mar 97 15:22:00
EID:cf75 227c7ac0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 33c62262
-=> Quoting George Harper to Lou Dripkin <=-
Good morning, George.
GH> BLOOD purity tactic. You can't have it both ways,
GH> JewBoy...either it is merely a religious differentiation or it is an
...
GH> By the way...for all readers...the ETHNIC slur I used was intentional.
People who intentionally use racial slurs really don't have much right to
complain about vulgarity used by others. To my mind, at least, you have
just committed a much worse foul than the most sewer-mouthed opponent you
have run into in this place.
GH> It is used as a means of demonstrating the validity of my point.
You should try to find more palatable ways to illustrate the validity of
your point, then. All this has done is bring discredit to your beliefs,
and remove any claim you had to the moral high ground over the vulgarity
spouters.
GH> Further, it MUS be allowed under the rules of this echo, so long as
the
GH> atheists, of whatever ethnicity, are allowed to continue using
GH> religiously-insulting terms,
I really doubt that you get to call the shots on what is allowed in here.
That's Styx's job, and he does it well. But, since he has made this a
place where freedom of expression is the rule, I have have little doubt
that he will allow you the freedom to discredit yourself if you so choose.
He gives the vulgar the freedom to expose their vulgarity, the ignorant
the freedom to expose their ignorance, and the foolish the freedom to
expose their foolishness.
Take care. (And I REALLY mean that!)
... Folly loves the martyrdom of Fame. - Byron
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: George Harper
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 28 Mar 97 13:59:00
EID:f02a 227c6f60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 33c62272
-=> Quoting George Harper to David Rice <=-
Good morning, George.
You "laid down the law" as follows:
GH> Do NOT resort to obscenities, vulgarity, or defamation of my
GH> family members.
GH> If you accept these ground rules we can begin...
GH> NOTE that my ground rules don't prohibit me from defaming you, your
GH> mother, o anyone else I choose to target...but I am above such low
GH> tactics, so I don't need to be told to avoid those things
And then in the very same note you said the following:
GH> but so can anyone CLAIM to be intelligent...such as you do.
GH> How about turning on your spell-checker, so you can hide your lack of
GH> education.
GH> ... you are losing to an idiot, right?
GH> hehehehe
You are a troll, right? No one with the brains to use a computer could
accidentally make themselves look so hypocritical.
Take care.
... Integrity has no need of rules. - Albert Camus
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08H18 (Registered)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:35:31
EID:5c7f 227c5460
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 8e734eff
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3338778a
On (26 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 23 Mar 97 06:37:32, Jim Staal got back to Christopher Hughes
CH> status, age, religion, sex, race, ethnicity, and nation of origin, but
CH> it does not have any law preventing being fired on grounds of sexual
CH> orientation.
JS> I am covered by those same laws. Why should you think that you
JS> need/deserve special treatment over and above what I have?
DC> Why do you think (oxymoron when referring to you) that he
DC> deserves less rights that you enjoy?
Absolutely not.
... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,they are the sons of God(Rom
8:14)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:35:55
EID:2fe7 227c5460
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f8966041
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33388129
On (26 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 23 Mar 97 07:32:26, Jim Staal got back to Karen Davis
KD> Why does it affect all humans?
JS> The Bible says the entire creation suffers from the effects of sin due
JS> to Adam's bite of the forbidden fruit.
DC> The bible also says that Pi=3.0
Hmmm...don't recall seeing Pi in the Bible anywhere.
... A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. (Gal 5:9)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:36:43
EID:cd23 227c5480
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f93d436d
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33388510
On (26 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 23 Mar 97 06:27:49, Jim Staal got back to ROBERT CURRY
JS> nah. He is always perfect and I am always inferior.
DC> That goes without saying, Bozo.
I'm glad we agree on both points.
... I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all. (1 Cor 14:18)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:37:57
EID:9094 227c54a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 17414acc
On (26 Mar 97) DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal <=-
JS> It is natural for the unenlightened to not
JS> want to be in church. But once there, changes
JS> can take place.
DR> It has been my observation that the enlightened,
DR> as a whole, do not go to church as much as the
DR> unenlightened.
I was referring to 'spiritual enlightenment'.
DR> But this DOES NOT say, nor am I implying, nor do I
DR> believe, nor do I think, that religious people are
DR> not educated or otherwise enlightened. Off the top
DR> of my head I can think of many very religious people
DR> who were brilliant, even polymathic.
Correct.
DR> It's just that
DR> as a whole, education decreases theism.
it is my opinion, David, that education increases pride and and self
relieance, and pride insulates against God.
DR> Which is an excellent argument for systemic, affordable
DR> education. Personally, I would hate to see religion
DR> somehow (magically, i.e. a miracle) vanish utterly from
DR> the face of the planet: such a tragic LOSS to humanity
DR> that would be! Religion has enriched so many of our
DR> greatest fellow human beings.
This is also true.
DR> Rather, I would like to
DR> see the degree of religosity decreased over-all so that
DR> it no longer threatens, as it does today, the very
DR> existance of our species.
You do not consider the jpossibility that homosexuality (not much
procreation going on in that state) and abortion could jpossibly be a
threat to the very existance of ourj species?
DR> There should be a happy
DR> median where religious expression is encouraged to
DR> flourish, but not at the expense of society.
I would rather that it enhanced society.
... He that has ears to hear, let him hear. (Matt 11:15)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:42:52
EID:9094 227c5540
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 4c4f88a0
On (26 Mar 97) DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal <=-
>DR> Why would you claim to worship a god that you admit to being
>DR> your ethical and moral inferior?
JS> I make no such admission.
DR> You admitted that you would not torture a soul for ever and
DR> ever, while saying that your god would / will. I assumed that
DR> the reason for your refusal was an ethical and moral one.
DR> Why would you not torture a soul in hell forever?
I don't see it as an ethical or jmoral problem. It would just hurt me
too much to hurt someone else. (I mean, I haven't been in a fight since
high school . Even when called out or severely
provoked, I just walk away)
DR> Why would your god want to torture a soul in Hell forever?
DR> (Remember, your occultism includes your god having absolute
DR> power.)
God doesn't 'want' to. The Bible indicates otherwise: (2 Pet 3:9 NIV)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand
slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but
everyone to come to repentance.
DR> How can you justify to yourself the unethical, immoral
DR> (indeed: EVIL) behavior of your god, when you yourself
DR> would not behave that unethical and immoral?
i don't see it as evil. I see it as His justice. he says 'if you do this
or this, and do not repent of it and accept my jsalvation, this is the
'reward'. If He didn't carry through, He would be 'wishy-washy' and not
worthy of the respect He commands.
... Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom 12:21)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Earthly Masters
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:49:45
EID:6bf5 227c5620
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 be658b5e
On (26 Mar 97) DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Fredric Rice
>FR> Or are you happy to shit your hatred down your own gullet
>FR> and demand it's okay because your masters demand it?
DR> I wish Fredric had been on my debating team in college. :-)
Such rhetoric is legitimate debate?
JS> I have no earthly masters.
DR> Actually, you do. You follow the dicta of long-dead, ignorant
DR> savages. You believe their lies because they comfort you.
We disagree. the comfort comes from within.
... Absent in body, but present in spirit. - 1 Corinthians 5:3
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:50:37
EID:fc7f 227c5640
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 24f8c97f
On (22 Mar 97) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to JIM STAAL...
LB> Dan and Jim were killing time yakking about Baby burning in Hell:
KD> I found *birth* to be disgusting. Shall I outlaw that?
JS> The pro-choicers have already tried and suceeded in doing that.
DC> And the name of that law is?
JS> It's called 'roe v wade'.
LB> How does Roe v Wade outlaw birth?
No, it outlaws God-given life.
... For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 6:7)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:51:19
EID:c4f2 227c5660
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 14322ce4
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 3339a9ca
On (26 Mar 97) Judith Bandsma wrote to Jim Staal...
-=> Jim complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
JS> Reason? Wilbur has never been to a 'clinic' and has a regular OBGYN.
JS> These are available, you know. It is called 'preventive maintenance'
JS> and should be done on a regular basis after a certain age.
JB> You either have to have the money or the insurance for a private
JB> doctor. Our insurance doesn't cover these kinds of tests. I was using
JB> the clinic in order to get it done for $85 instead of $350.
Fortunately, throughout our employed careers, we have always had some
sort of insurance, some better, some worse. I have never had dental,
however, and yet get the stuff done that needs to be done and make
regular payments on the bill if necessary. But I understand what you are
saying.
... Now are they many members, yet one body. - 1 Cor. 12:20
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:55:54
EID:75d4 227c56e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 6c6bc6a8
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 778c51c8
On (27 Mar 97) Martin Goldberg wrote to Jim Staal...
MG> RS>> Please note that the Hawaiian Supreme Court has found that
MG> RS>> sexual orientation has no bearing or relationship to the
MG> RS>> fitness of any parent to raise a child whatsoever.
JS> I believe the HSC has their heads in their heinies.
MG> What is the direct relationship between homosexual orientation and
MG> inability to raise children?
Two things:
a. there is an inherent inablility to ntaurally produce children
in the first place, and
b. there is no chance for the child in a day to day familial
setting to be exposed to the 'norm' of society, i.e. a father
_and_ a mother.
... Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving. (Col 4:2)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 28 Mar 97 10:59:23
EID:f43d 227c5760
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 d6922494
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3339b5c3
On (26 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 25 Mar 97 07:18:10, Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift
JS> See? Where did I say 'gooks'? A _big_ difference.
JS> Yes, I used the word 'gook', but not 'as a synonym for the languages
and
JS> peoples of Vietnam.'
JS> You, sir, are a liar, even as your man Satan is the father of lies.
I
JS> denied using 'gooks'. Read and learn.
DC> You're a fucking piece of shit, Staal. You are willing to
DC> quibble over a 's' when your short little dick was caught in
DC> the wringer.
DC> What you wrote was archived.
Yes and continually miss quoted and misapplied.
... For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Rom 3:23)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:00:04
EID:f43d 227c5800
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 a9377bcc
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3339b676
On (26 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 25 Mar 97 08:39:46, Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift
RS> used "gook". You are right, you never used it for the people's
RS> You did, however, use the word for the languages of Vietnam. You
RS> did use it as a racial slur. :)
JS> Nah. No slur. Merely a well accepted slang word, not intended to
JS> offend.
DC> May I carbon your letter to Mr Loo and see what he has to
DC> say about your "non-offense", Crate?
You can carbon _date_ my letter for all I care. Then tell Mister Loo to
get his butt back to Seoul and see for himself what is going on.
... For the son of man is come to save that which was lost. (Matt 18:11)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Irc Log Fun!
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:03:59
EID:255b 227c5860
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 b1875abc
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3339b920
On (27 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> RS> Then again, why haven't you sacrificed your first born male child
JS> RS> to God?
JS> Where did Christ (or any OT command) command it?
DC> You really are an idiot, Staal. It's in the bible that
DC> you worship and quoted above, you moron.
Yopu must have missed my response to Mister Swift. In any event, if have
this alleged evidence, then why don't you just trot it out here for me
once?
... Judge not according to appearance. - John 7:24
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:05:11
EID:cd23 227c58a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 e212cd92
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3339bee1
On (27 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
DC> Go watch the comet and sasy "Aaahhh" an drown in the rain
DC> like the turkey that you are.
Sorry. But why don't you go out there and maybe the Greys will slow
their spaceshiop down and pick you up. (another example fo the 'better
educated' at work)
... He that has ears to hear, let him hear. (Matt 11:15)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:08:52
EID:3f9c 227c5900
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 b58afbe6
REPLY: 1:207/212 be9bfb07
On (24 Mar 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (23 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
JS> She wouldn't wait till after the 5th month. She is already _very_
JS> pregnant. Your reason doesn't wash.
KD> Which is why the abortions are not because she doesn't want to be
KD> pregnant. They are because there is a danger to her medically.
man, you just jlove to talk out of both sides, don't you? you had just
said it was because they didn't want to be pregnant.
KD> not because they don't want the child. Primarily, at least. If the
KD> baby is
KD> coming out, you're not pregnant any more, no need to worry if the baby
KD> comes out alive or dead.
JS> Exactly my point. Why kill the baby then?
KD> BECAUSE THERE IS A DANGER TO HER, AND THE BABY IS LIKELY ALREADY
KD> DYING.
Huh!? The baby is already born except for the head. What in the world
are yo talking about? Are you trying to deny the procedure yet?
JS> Ron Fitzsimmons may or may not be a doctor either, but he said
JS> 3000-4000 viable fetuses with healthy mothers.
KD> Lies. Figure out why he said that and you'll find some illegal act
KD> performed by anti abortion activists. No documentation.
No, you will find the man probably got a conscience and no longer could
lie for the Clinton liberals.
... All things work together for good to them who love God. - Rom. 8:28
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:11:42
EID:3699 227c5960
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 44afa6c0
REPLY: 1:207/212 280ca345
On (24 Mar 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (23 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
JS> And the end result proved that abortion wasn't necessary. Lynda is
JS> fine, both children are fine. I didn't say it was easy, but then, if
JS> it were easy, anybody could have done it. I give Lynda a lot of
JS> credit.
JS> Just one of the reasons I call her my friend. I have a lot of respect
JS> for her.
KD> Yes, Lynda is very comfortable with the choices she made. I respect
KD> her for her choices. But you can't say "everything's fine." You don't
KD> know
KD> what she went through during and after the pregnancies.
I'm sure it was difficult, but everything is fine now.
KD> What if the child that resulted from rape had been male and the
KD> picture of his father, and not a wonderful little girl who has nothing
KD> of her
KD> father in her?
Then she would have had a wonderful little boy. I'm sure the father's
environment and upbringing had more to do with what he became in
adulthood than just his biological heritage.
KD> What if Lynda had died in the last pregnancy?
She wouldn't be here, and we would miss a lot.
KD> These decisions are a case by case issue. Each individual must decide
KD> for herself, based on her support system, resources, and the best
KD> information available. That's why abortion has to be legal as it is
KD> now.
We disagree.
... Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. (1 The 5:21)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:14:30
EID:0443 227c59c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 cb3fe74b
REPLY: 1:207/212 a2948155
On (24 Mar 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (23 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
JS> What about viable fetuses? All of the above aside, my feelings on the
JS> matter can be best expressed by quesiton and answer one of the
JS> Heidelberg Catechism:
KD> And you have yet to demonstrate the abortion of any viable fetuses in
KD> any procedure without some medical risk factor.
Ask Ron Fitzsimmons, although you don't have to. He made it very much a
part of the public record.
JS> Q - What is your only comfort in life and death?
JS> A- That I, with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own,
JS> but belong to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ; who with His precious
JS> blood
KD> This is not anywhere close to my belief, Jim, so there is no way this
KD> is going to persuade me. My body is MINE, not Jesus', and any embryo
KD> that
KD> develops in me [though you'd be well warned to bring Frankincense etc.
KD> to my bedside were I to be pregnant as it isn't possible] is MINE, not
KD> Jesus'.
Again, we disagree.
KD> Feel free to use such beliefs for your own decisions and with those
KD> who voluntarily listen to your counsel. But they don't wash for me and
KD> they don't wash for public policy in the United States.
Shame.
... I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. (1 Cor 10:20)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:15:40
EID:53b4 227c59e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 ca7ed81d
REPLY: 1:207/212 544e025a
On (24 Mar 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (23 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
JS> The Bible says the entire creation suffers from the effects of sin due
JS> to Adam's bite of the forbidden fruit.
KD> Why?
Because it was no longer perfecrt and free from sin.
... He that has ears to hear, let him hear. (Matt 11:15)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: FUNDY FROLICS 1/3
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:16:09
EID:53b4 227c5a00
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 542b9f34
REPLY: 1:207/212 94a52810
On (24 Mar 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (23 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
JS> Oh my. SAve the poor little animals...but kill the helpless unborn.
JS> You tree huggers make me puke!
KD> Animals need our help. Embryos don't. If the mother of the embryo
KD> wishes to protect it, she will.
JS> It is not up to the will of the mother. My statement stands.
KD> Yes it is, under US public policy. You WANT to destroy her will so
KD> YOUR desire for more and more babies is satisfied.
I have no desire for more babies. Three for me was enough. I now have
grandbabies and that more than satifies any desire I may have had for
more babies.
... For the earth is the Lords, and the fullness thereof. (1 Cor 10:26)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: George Harper
|Sub: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:17:37
EID:8cd3 227c5a20
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 8c135ee9
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b97c98b
On (27 Mar 97) George Harper wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> Obviously not! Christians are supposed to be perfect! Don't you know
JS> that by now? (sarcasm mode on)
GH> I like to think that we ARE "perfect"...through the Blood Of Christ.
Amen. Unfortunately, however, that doesn't always reflect upon our
actions. (speaking for myself here)
GH> I notice that you get your share of flaming torches and, probably,
GH> burnt crosses...goes with the territory...
Oh, yeah. It has gotten to be the common thing here for me to be
_always_ wrong, stupid, ignorant, etc. It is nice to know that the
important One who sees this stuff know better.
GH> My congregation has a young pastor...this is his second pulpit, but
he
GH> left the first one after four months to come to our church...who is
GH> interested in seeing what sort of things "the opposition" is saying
in
GH> a forum like this one...I am going to start selecting an occasional
GH> sample from the very few rational posts in this echo and printing them
GH> out for him...
It would be nice, if he has a computer, to join us here from time to
time.
GH> Keep the Faith...and a very Blessed and Happy Easter to you and
GH> yours...
Thank you, and I intend to (with more grace) do so and the same to you.
... One Lord, one faith, one baptism. (Eph 4:5)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Misunderstanding?
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:23:52
EID:78cf 227c5ae0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 8df4cda1
On (26 Mar 97) DAVID RICE wrote to FREDRIC RICE...
DR> I do not see where Roger is coming from. Concealing ones'
DR> illness is one thing; not telling a lover one has NIV is
DR> another.
In Michigan it is a crime punishable by 2 years imprisonment. Not
enough in my estimation, for knowingly prounouncing a death sentence on
another unsuspecting human being.
... If any man love God, the same is known of him. (1 Cor 8:3)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: ALL
|Sub: spacefundy
|Date: 28 Mar 97 00:20:13
EID:beed 227c0280
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 d9f622da
Does anyone know a fundy named "rocket77" who posts spam from a
fictitious e-mail address (rocket77@one.net)? I got a religious
solicitation in private fido netmail via a gateway somewhere. My
response was bounced, of course.
The only thing I've sent out (of a secular nature) was an e-mail
flame directed at the author of christiangallery.com. I mentioned
HS, but I didn't give my fido address. I wonder why the person
didn't write me at the e-mail address I *did* give: edmilz@juno.com.
Are there some other fundy mailing lists on some other net somewhere
that gets crossed up with this one?
Strange.
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: another for the FAQ
|Date: 28 Mar 97 07:32:33
EID:5dd4 227c3c00
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 a72d9283
REPLY: 1:3603/210 4e82b86c
On (22 Mar 97) ROBERT CURRY babbled to KEN YOUNG...
KY> Will there come a time when "my work will be done," here?
KY> Perhaps, but that will only occur when this echo has completely
KY> changed.
RC> LOL! This one needs to be properly archived.
Oh gawd! I think I swallowed by upper plate! I'm going
to have to quit bypassing his messages that aren't addressed
directly to me, if he keeps posting shit like THIS!
... Belief is acceptance without question. Thinking requires effort.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: clones
|Date: 28 Mar 97 11:53:38
EID:acf1 227c5ea0
MSGID: 1:123/67 333bb1fb
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b97c98e
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
27 Mar 97 22:29, quoting George Harper to J.J. Hitt:
GH> This is sound advice...how come it only applies to claims made by
GH> Christians? I don't see ANY substantiation offered for claims that
GH> the God I follow is a myth,
Gawd.....you're clueless, aren't you? Myth is the DEFAULT state for gods,
oh benighted one.
GH> or that homosexuality is more
GH> than a choice of lifestyles, etc...
Wrong again, Georgie boy. It is now the medical and psychiatric concensus
that sexual preference is not a choice. Now, tell me when you choose to
be heterosexual.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 28 Mar 97 18:07:38
EID:90cc 227c90e0
MSGID: 1:123/67 333c0954
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333bdcda
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
28 Mar 97 08:09, quoting Don Martin to Ed Mills:
DM> You do good stuff, Mills, but you simply haven't rolled
DM> around here long enough to have gathered enough floppy disks
DM> filled with moss. This is a great idea, though. I had
DM> already thought of asking for "favorites" from everyone's
DM> archives, but "observations" (this medium does not do
DM> interviews reliably) from various participants, written
DM> expressly for inclusion in the book, might make an excellent
DM> chapter, or headnotes to the various chapters, or both. I
DM> welcome all such material, either here or by email.
I've got a couple thousand messages, most archived in 1993 while
I was on disability.
DM> o Fundy Farewells:
DM> Sheneisms. Pray for you. Pitchforks.
DM> -+--+--+---
DM> I welcome suggestions. Warmly.
Kill yourself with a pitchfork. There.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 28 Mar 97 19:49:15
EID:c96b 227c9e20
MSGID: 1:123/67 333c22ce
REPLY: 1:104/447 2c06e190
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
28 Mar 97 06:52, quoting George Harper to Judith Bandsma:
GH> Yes, I said the Bible is infallible, ergo inerrant.
Do you base this on actual reading of your bible or a PRECONCEIVED
notion that requires your bible to be inerrant?
GH> YES! God IS the
GH> Creator of All Things.
Do you base this on evidence or a requirement of your religious belief?
GH> Yes, God is the Author of ALL life! Yes,
GH> God
GH> even created, via the heterosexual coupling of various pairs, even the
GH> persons who subsequently CHOSE to follow a homosexual life-style.
GH> Ergo, you are TECHNICALLY correct...God DID create the persons who
GH> became homosexual.
What qualifies you to know more about sexual choice that those experts
who have spent their lives studying it?
GH> Don't celebrate too soon...read on!
GH> You merely scored a minor point! Homosexuality IS - and always will
GH> remain - nothing more, nor less, than a freely-made lifestyle choice.
What medical and psychiatric evidence do you base this conclusion on?
GH> God created YOU female use
GH> in this echo> human being....He made Don Martin a
GH> MALE...that's the set... Male and Female...no inbetweens, no
GH> neutrals...
Why did your god create humans with ambigious gentitalia?
GH> While there ARE milieu in which persons are raised that MAY
GH> pre-dispose them to selecting a same-gender sexual orientation, the
GH> final decision to enter and live that lifestyle is THEIR FREE WILL
GH> CHOICE, freely made.
Again, your medical evidence for this conclusion is? If you have no
peer-reviewed medical evidence, are you ready to admit that your conclusion
is based solely on religious beliefs? Yes or no, please.
GH> For the uninformed: milieu a total
GH> environment, encompassing all things that have impact on any
GH> designated subject.... (This is the thumbnail definition from my Psych
GH> 101 text, c1975)
I don't think that anyone in here is impressed with your academics,
Georgie.
GH> Now...AGAIN...I challenge you to prove that Homosexuality is the
GH> result of any genetic structure or other physical causal factors...If
GH> your evidence is properly stated, and includes *unbiased* MEDICALLY
GH> provable statements, I will admit defeat,
You are already defeated. Read the medical consensus and weep, little
fundie.
GH> and apologize to all
GH> homosexually-oriented persons for having thought they had a choice.
Get out your kneepads already.
GH> BTW: I decide biases in this matter, so include the names of your
GH> sources, and location, so that I can, if I want, verify their lack of
GH> bias.
See the next message.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Homosexuality
|Date: 28 Mar 97 19:58:08
EID:640b 227c9f40
MSGID: 1:123/67 333c230b
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation
and Homosexuality
What is sexual orientation?
Sexual orientation is one of the four components of sexuality and is distinguished
by an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual or
affectionate attraction to individuals of a particular gender. The three
other components of sexuality are biological sex, gender
identity (the psychological sense of being male or female) and social sex
role (adherence to cultural norms for feminine and
masculine behavior). Three sexual orientations are commonly recognized:
homosexual, attraction to individuals of one's own
gender; heterosexual, attraction to individuals of the other gender; or
bisexual, attractions to members of either gender. Persons
with a homosexual orientation are sometimes referred to as gay (both men
and women) or as lesbian (women only).
Sexual orientation is different from sexual behavior because it refers to
feelings and self-concept. Persons may or may not
express their sexual orientation in their behaviors.
What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
How a particular sexual orientation develops in any individual is not well
understood by scientists. Various theories have
proposed differing sources for sexual orientation, including genetic or
inborn hormonal factors and life experiences during early
childhood. However, many scientists share the view that sexual orientation
is shaped for most people at an early age through
complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors.
Is sexual orientation a choice?
No. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without
any prior sexual experience. And some people
report trying very hard over many years to change their sexual orientation
from homosexual to heterosexual with no success.
For these reasons, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation for
most people to be a conscious choice that can be
voluntarily changed.
Is homosexuality a mental illness or emotional problem?
No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree
that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder
or emotional problem. Much objective scientific research over the past 35
years shows us that homosexual orientation, in and
of itself, is not associated with emotional of social problems.
Homosexuality was thought to be a mental illness in the past because mental
health professionals and society had biased
information about homosexuality since most studies only involved lesbians
and gay men in therapy, the idea that homosexuality
was a mental illness was found to be untrue.
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of
the new research by removing the term
"homosexuality" from the official manual that list all mental and emotional
disorders. In 1975 the American Psychological
Association passed a resolution supporting this action. Both associations
urge all mental health professionals to help dispel the
stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual
orientation. Since original declassification of
homosexuality as a mental disorder, this decision has subsequently been
reaffirmed by additional research findings and both
associations.
Can lesbians and gay men be good parents?
Yes. Studies comparing groups of children raised by homosexual parents find
no developmental differences between the two
groups of children in their intelligence, psychological adjustment, social
adjustment, popularity with friends, development of
social sex role identity or development of sexual orientation.
Another stereotype about homosexuality is the mistaken belief that gay men
have more of a tendency than heterosexual men to
sexually molest children. There is no evidence indicating that homosexuals
are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children.
Why do some gay men and lesbians tell people about their sexual orientation?
Because sharing that aspect of themselves with others is important to their
mental health. In fact, the process of identity
development for lesbians and gay men, usually called "coming out", has been
found to be strongly related to psychological
adjustment - the more positive the gay male or lesbian identity, the better
one's mental health and the higher one's self-esteem.
Why is the "coming out" process difficult for some gays and lesbians?
Because of false stereotypes and unwarranted prejudice towards them, the
process of "coming out" for lesbians and gay men
can be a very challenging process which may cause emotional pain. Lesbian
and gay people often feel "different" and alone
when they first become aware of same-sex attractions. They may also fear
being rejected by family, friends, co-workers and
religious institutions if they do "come out".
In addition, homosexuals are frequently the targets of discrimination and
violence. This threat of violence and discrimination is
an obstacle to lesbian and gay people's development. In a 1989 national
survey, 5% of the gay men and 10% of the lesbians
reported physical abuse or assault related to being lesbian or gay in the
last year; 47% reported some form of discrimination
over their lifetime. Other research has shown similarly high rates of discrimination
or violence.
What can be done to help lesbians and gay men overcome prejudice and discrimination
against
them?
The people who have the most positive attitudes toward gay men and lesbians
are those who say they know one or more gay
person well. For this reason, psychologists believe negative attitudes toward
gays as a group are prejudices that are not
grounded in actual experience with lesbians or gay men but on stereotypes
and prejudice.
Furthermore, protection against violence and discrimination are very important,
just as they are for other minority groups. Some
states include violence against an individual on the basis of her or his
sexual orientation as a "hate crime" and eight U.S. states
have laws against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
(continued)
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Homosexuality
|Date: 28 Mar 97 19:59:08
EID:640b 227c9f60
MSGID: 1:123/67 333c233f
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation
and Homosexuality
(continued)
Can therapy change sexual orientation?
No. Even though homosexual orientation is not a mental illness and there
is no scientific reason to attempt conversion of
lesbians or gays to heterosexual orientation, some individuals may seek
to change their own sexual orientation of that of another
individual (for example, parents seeking therapy for their child). Some
therapists who undertake this kind of therapy report that
they have changed their client's sexual orientation (from homosexual to
heterosexual) in treatment. Close scrutiny of their
reports indicates several factors that cast doubt: many of the claims come
from organizations with an ideological perspective on
sexual orientation, rather than from mental health researchers; the treatments
and their outcomes are poorly documented; and
the length of time that clients are followed up after the treatment is too
short.
In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence
does not show that conversion therapy works
and that it can do more harm that good. Changing one's sexual orientation
is not simply a matter of changing one's sexual
behavior. It would require altering one's emotional, romantic and sexual
feelings and restructuring one's self-concept and social
identity. Although some mental health providers do attempt sexual orientation
conversion, others question the ethics of trying to
alter through therapy a trait that is not a disorder and that is extremely
important to an individual's identity.
Not all gays and lesbians who seek therapy want to change their sexual orientation.
Gays and lesbians may seek counseling for
any of the same reasons as anyone else. In addition, they may seed psychological
help to "come out" or to deal with prejudice,
discrimination and violence.
Why is it important for society to be better educated about homosexuality?
Educating all people about sexual orientation and homosexuality is likely
to diminish anti-gay prejudice. Accurate information
about homosexuality is especially important to young people struggling with
their own sexual identity. Fears that access to such
information will affect one's sexual orientation are not valid.
Where can I find more information about homosexuality?
The publications and organizations listed below can all provide you with
further information.
Garnets, L.D., et. al, "Issues in Psychotherapy With Lesbians and Gay Men,"
American Psychologist, Vol. 46, No.9, pp
964-972.
Goodchilds, J.D., Psychological Perspectives on Human Diversity in America,
American Psychological Association,
Washington, D.C., 1993
Garnets, L.D. and Kimmel, D.C., Psychological Perspectives on Lesbians &
Gay Male Experiences, Columbia University
Press, NY, 1993.
Gonsiorek, J.C., and Weinrich, J.D., Homosexuality: Research Implications
For Public Policy, Sage Publications, CA, 1991.
Herek, G.M., and Berrill, K.T., Journal of Interpersonal Violence, Vol.
5, No.3.
Organizations:
National Gay and Lesbian Task Force 1734 14th Street, NW Washington, D.C.
20009 (202) 332-6483
National Institute of Mental Health 5600 Fishers Lane, Room 7C02 Rockville,
MD 20857 (301) 443-4513
Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays 1012 14th Street, NW, Suite 700
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 638-4200
Sex Information and Education Counsel of the United States 130 W. 42nd Street,
Suite 2500 New York, NY 10036
The American Psychological Association (APA) located in Washington, D.C.,
is the largest scientific and professional
organization representing psychology in the United States and is the world's
largest association of psychologists.
APA's membership includes more than 132,000 practitioners, researchers,
educators, consultants and students.
Through its divisions in 49 subfields of psychology and affiliations with
58 state and territorial and Canadian
provincial associations, APA works to advance psychology as a science, as
a profession and as a means of promoting
human welfare.
American Psychological Association
Office of Public Affairs
750 First St., N.E.
Washington, DC 20002-4242
(202) 336-5700
Email: public.affairs@apa.org
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: dumb religious delusions
|Date: 28 Mar 97 20:16:15
EID:76b9 227ca200
MSGID: 1:123/67 333c2768
REPLY: 1:383/6293 3330CD37
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
26 Mar 97 23:50, quoting Darryl Gonzalez to Mark O'Neill:
DG> OK. A couple of items for you:
DG> 1. A brilliant mathematician, Dr. Robert Herrman, Professor of
DG> Mathematics at the U. S. Naval Academy, has published an excellent
DG> mathematical demonstration using set theory which shows that it IS in
DG> fact reasonable to believe in God.
I don't give a goat-damn about someone's theory that it is reasonable
to BELIEVE.
I am interested in evidence that supports the contention that gods exist.
Present it....NOW.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 28 Mar 97 20:25:37
EID:4e18 227ca320
MSGID: 1:123/67 333c2992
REPLY: 3:640/375.1 333a1bb4
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
27 Mar 97 01:57, quoting Mark O'Neill to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> Just as a reference, how old are you, Kenny?
MN> when I was in high school(I graduated in 90), they were trying to stop
MN> prayer being
MN> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hell, if I was 25 years old and had never had a blow job, I would
kill myself. Fundies are strange.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Reading Incomprehensi
|Date: 25 Mar 97 13:41:00
EID:3a44 22796d20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3337656c
* On 21-03-97 at 03:54, DAN CEPPA wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Reading Incomprehensi" in echo Holysmoke:
DC> DC> KW> heaven. The New Testament repeatedly states the christian
DC> DC> KW> is not under the OT Law or bound by that Law. The Law was
DC> DC> Bullshit, Kenny. Your "godling" Jesus said that he "came not
DC> DC> to change one dot or tittle of the law."
DC> RS> Hence, Leviticus 20 still applies to them. They should start
DC> RS> stoning fags to death immediately :)
DC> Better yet, not being bound by the old law means that they
DC> can violate all of those old laws with impunity. And,
DC> judging by xian actions, they are doing the best/worst
DC> they can in violating them.
But they never forget to apply all the laws to others, even
though Galatians clearly states that one is saved by faith, not
obedience.
Rod "...but hey, what's a few hypocritical viewpoints between
friends, eh?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't just stand there!!! Kneel!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Fat People
|Date: 25 Mar 97 13:42:02
EID:32c4 22796d40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333765aa
* On 19-03-97 at 13:29, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Fat People" in echo Holysmoke:
KW> RS>But of course. I think every human who has ever stopped to help
KW> RS>Gwenny just by even listening did more than the God of The
KW> RS>Bible(tm), who never even bothered to listen.
KW> Gwenny, by her own strength and will, has done far, far more to help
KW> herself than that god of their bible ever managed to accomplish.
God is less relevant than navel lint, Katherine. We all know
that :)
KW> RS>And yes, my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek. After all,
KW> RS>I'd not firmly plant it in Steiny's cheeks -- at either end :)
KW> You know that your turning him (and Young) on, dontcha?
That was the idea :) :)
Rod "...you know the get boners" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Rutabaga: Lord of the vegies
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 25 Mar 97 13:43:04
EID:c264 22796d60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333765e8
* On 19-03-97 at 13:29, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KW> I should have put crushed ice and salt in that water.
What-*ever!* :)
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * "Bones! That, feels, wonderful, yes!" "It's head, Jim!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 25 Mar 97 13:43:06
EID:b0d6 22796d60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333765ea
* On 19-03-97 at 13:29, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Cheese Whiz" in echo Holysmoke:
KW> RS>He needs a sex-change, Katherine. He needs his own cervix :) :)
KW> Fine. You can cervix him.
ICKY!
Rod "...that's the only word I can think of" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Give Christians Prozac, not Government Office!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 01
|Date: 25 Mar 97 14:57:08
EID:9f4d 22797720
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33377744
* On 19-03-97 at 13:29, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KW> RS>Oh, I dunno. I've had demonstrations against you for your bear's
KW> RS>nomenclature, and how he's not gay :) :) We're just
KW> RS>homosexualist ursine supremacists, my bear and I :)
KW> Fine--you try to wake him up when he's hibernating (napping).
:) :) Is this a trick question? :)
KW> No, I respect people who have earned my respect. If some of those
KW> people happen to be gay, that's nothing more than a fact about them,
KW> like some of them like celtic music, or have blue eyes. Other than
KW> that, I'm perfectly content to let other people live their own lives
as
KW> I have not been endowed with any god like ability to judge the worth
of
KW> those lives.
Oh my. Ken Young is probably spinning on his stick now. To
think that someone could actually leave *another* alone!
*sacrilege*! :)
KW> RS>KW> Because they want to marry rather than just live together? Because
KW> RS>KW> they want the right to live honest, decent lives? Because they
don't
KW> RS>KW> want to be beaten, harassed, discriminated against, interned,
put in
KW> RS>KW> camps, damned to hell by the ignorant, ect, ect, ect?
KW> RS>He claims that the only way to solve the problem is for gays to
KW> RS>shut up and accept their second-class citizenry and the problems
KW> RS>of the heterosexual majority as foisted on them in
KW> RS>discrimination, physical beatings, and lies.
KW> He doesn't seem to realize that the quickest way to 'shut up' gays is
to
KW> let them determine their own lives in peace.
There you go again with that sacrilege of *tolerance*, Katherine.
You know, Ken will be all up-in-arms, in fear that some of it may
rub off on him! :) :)
KW> RS>I claim that the only way he can solve the problem of us being
KW> RS>around demanding rights is to grant them, fully, unencumbered,
KW> RS>and without any strings attached. He will find that if we are
KW> RS>treated justly, we will have no cause to complain.
KW> RS>We aren't treated fairly now. We have just reason to complain.
KW> RS>His solution, that we just shut up, requires him not to change.
KW> And allows him something to feel superior about--something that was
KW> just a chance occurrence and grants him no real superiority.
The Christians always need someone to dominate to assert their
religious doctrine over. The fact is that he'd gain a lot of
personal satisfaction out of shutting up the "fags" too :)
Another reason why his death-cult needs to be given irrelevance
in today's society :)
Rod "... I suspect Ken is getting awfully excited by now!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Famous graffitti: Please don't write on the -- oops!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 02
|Date: 25 Mar 97 15:01:10
EID:9e0d 22797820
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33377836
* On 19-03-97 at 13:29, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KW> RS>KW> KY>And hey, if people mind their own business, and don't
KW> RS>KW> KY>tell me about what they
KW> RS>KW> KY>are doing, why should I care? It's their lives,
KW> RS>KW> KY>just leave me out of it.
KW> RS>KW>