God Damned Fundies!
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 26 Mar 96 10:39:00
EID:8ef5 207a54e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D122E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 12:00, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> So, Lee, just where is this "God Detector" and what gods has it
DC> detected? Is the device registered in the US Patent Department,
DC> and what is it's patent number?
LW> instrument that could be patented. Detecting God is a matter of direct
LW> experience on the spiritual level. Scientific instruments are unable
to
So, trot that god of your's out here...
LW> detect God because their field of usefulness is the material level--and
LW> God is not a material entity.
And, unlike your god, you can interact with the real world.
Now, demonstrate where you, a physical being, can interact with your
god, a non-material entity of no consequence.
... Belief, believe, believes...conjugates of the verb "to blindly accept"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 26 Mar 96 15:27:00
EID:7eeb 207a7b60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D122F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 09:09, Al Schroeder got back to Judith Bandsma
JB> of Guess Who?
AS> you weren't really involved. I'm drawing a total blank here.
AS> Can you name some of their songs?
_American Woman_
... "No sugar tonight in my coffee, no sugar tonight in my tea.." G.Who
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:06:00
EID:703d 207aa8c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1230
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 04:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> the most improbable explanations in PREFERENCE to believing in a
AS> miracle?
DC> Improbable? A "miracle" is the most improbable explanation that
DC> there is. There are many better explanations than that, including
AS> Then we just have to believe in a wide spread schism from the
AS> original believers in the Jerusalem Church, in your view, where the
The schism is believable, as the Nag Hammadi Scrolls reveal. The
winner in the contest was the current mode of belief. It is only
by good fortune that those scrolls survided to this day, as the
others that they allude to were destroyed by the winning factions.
AS> Republicians rewriting hisotry to say that Lincoln was killed by Booth
AS> when he died in his sleep, it's possible, but not an explanation you
There are more than enough documents and eyewitnesses to the
Lincoln assassination to verify the claim. Culpability in
a conspiracy was harder to show, though Dr Mudd was convicted
of being part of it and was most likely innocent of anything
other than performing his duties as a doctor.
AS> would give ANY credence to...that so many records could be faked or
AS> tampered with....unless you are using it for the express reason of
Your documents have been faked in various fashions.
The JFK assasination is perhaps the most momentous event in the
AS> sixties. Look how many different accounts we have of the events of
AS> THAT day, and how not all of them agree. (Just ask John Prewitt, for
Yes, there is a lot of controversy surrounding that event. The
major problem of resolving it ends, or rather starts, with the
assassination of Oswald. However, they key fact that Kennedy
was shot is indisputable. The evidence to support a single
gunman and a magic "miracle" bullet do not fit the facts very
well. There is a conspiracy, but it may never be known just
how was involved. Even if it does come out, it will probably
be far too late to do anything about the perpetrators, other
than to know how the facts really fit together.
... "A great warrior? Wars not make one great." - Yoda
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:11:00
EID:bf90 207aa960
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1231
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 06:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Of course it decreases _his_ noise level. He doesn't have to answer
DC> pointed questions that undermine his "analogies".
AS> Now, he's certainly taken it on the chin from a lot of people here.
It's his boxing style. He leads with it.
AS> If he wants to take a vacation from certain key posters, I can't fault
AS> him...anymore than I fault Hector for evidently dropping out for
Unlike Hector, or most of the other regulars, he simply chosen to
hide his head in the sand. To compound the matter, he has chosen
to brag about while hiding behind his List.
... Holy_Smoke: The ONE, TRUE HUMOR (c): Scott Bear
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jon Vandenburg
|Sub: Jon Vandenberg
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:13:00
EID:01c9 207aa9a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1232
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 06:32, George Rudzinski got back to All
JV> only SysOp in our net that has allowed george ongoing BBS access in
JV> recent years.
GR> Jon fails to point out that I only accessed Fidonet from Glen. As all
GR> of you folks know, my point of origin has always been BCH.
Well, Jon, what do you have to say about this?
... +Origin: Crosby croons for Hanukah: Bing of the Jews
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: LEGEND
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:21:00
EID:8b49 207aaaa0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1233
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 06:01, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Thanks. I can resist anything, except temptation, especially puns.
DC> That's why most of us are really here after all!
AS> Yes, there is no reason to be cross with me. Since this is about
AS> religion, there is no reason not to use religion as puns. You'd have
AS> to be a saint to refuse and take it on the Islam.
I would have thought that that was B'nai-th you, Buddha could
be mistaken.
AS> True. Even Jesus was shown wanting to literally make a prophecy come
AS> true, by getting the ass to ride into Jerusalem, thus fulfilling a
DC> It does, hoever, make it much more suspect. After, you just noted
DC> that, in you opinion, the event _was_ staged. How many other
AS> Some could have been, but the predictions were in general so vague,
AS> that it's hard to pin down. Quite frankly, the predictions about the
That's just the point. Any "good" prophet leaves enough leeway to
may just about any event fit the "prophecy".
DC> Which goes with the Jewish sub-cult of the original group. A brother
DC> is a potential heir to the leadership of that group.
AS> True. And people were claiming kinship to Jesus in that area well
AS> into the third century, via the brothers and sisters of JEsus.
I'd be surprised if there aren't a few cults that the leaders harken
their lineage back to Jesus. "Evidence" of antiquity still carries
awe amount the masses.
... CBN, where we define truth, and you get to believe it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:26:00
EID:8b49 207aab40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1234
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 06:03, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> much may be about right. That'll give you the leftovers to make
DC> the Deep Fried ones.
AS> Sounds simple enough...
It depends on how many potatoes you make, though, as well as
how good and how much gravy you have for them to soak up!
DC> The batter itself in nothing more than a crepe batter and is
AS> Hmmm. Sounds good. Barb isn't doing any charity volunteer work, BTW,
AS> she's helping out with a local theater that she helps supports.
Is she a post or a pillar? Good thing it wasn't an athletic
event...
BTW, she could always try small batches of it to get the hang
of it. My directions are "good", but it took me nearly a
month to figure out the original procedure. Hopefully, I
didn't miss anything. If I did, you'll have a lot of teeny,
tiny deepfried peices of potato!
... SPAM: meat. See also Squirrels, Possum And Mice
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: misogynist
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:28:00
EID:e37a 207aab80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1235
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 09:39, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> Marilyn was the 'silly woman'. I'm the 'silly female twit'.
DC> Thanks for straightening that out! ....then again, who's the
DC> "silly b***h? Seems like that is Sue Armstrong.
SA> That's "silly bITCh", thank you very much.
What can I say... Censorship really messes things up!
And, you are weLCOme!
... Fundy Logic: Lie 1 + Lie 2 + Lie 3 = "God's Truth"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Mike Carr
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 26 Mar 96 07:21:09
EID:99a1 207a3aa0
MSGID: 1:284/120 7b032559
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-> > , You trafic in faith everyday.
->
-> False statement.
I said you traffic in faith everyday and that is true. It's divine faith
in which you don't traffic and your reasoning is unsound and your doctrine
is simply to glib. It is also elitist to think that anyone who believes
in God is unintelligent. Many of the worlds greatest minds have held divine
faith and used human reason to prove God exists. I realize that you mistrust
reason in that area so I won't bother to list the various proofs (I assume
that since you're intelligent, you've studied them) of it.
-> All the indirect evidence on Earth is totally worthless without corro
-> of DIRECT evidence. Not only would you have to show me that the claim.
Hmmm. How about the order of the universe?
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Mike Carr
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 26 Mar 96 07:26:28
EID:99a1 207a3b40
MSGID: 1:284/120 7b03256a
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-> > "Remains Established", come on! You are a contingent being, a
-> > receipient of life or existence. All material beings are. Close
-> > eyes for a moment and imagine a universe populated only with recei
-> > of life and nowhere an originator.
->
-> I don't need to "close my eyes". The world you describe IS the world
-> out there.
->
-> Just because there are people IN that world who believe without real
-> doesn't make their funny internal feeling (faith) any more factual. I
-> means they believe -- and nothing else. - The point is that you are a
contingent being as a receipient of life. Follow that daisy chain back
until you find the giver. We can't all be receipients. BTW, The Mass is
heaven on earth and heaven is the destination each of us should aim for.
Come early for a taste of heaven. Peace to you Michael
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 26 Mar 96 13:29:43
EID:c520 207a6ba0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31583c7f
Jim Germiquet said "AVOIDING THE QUESTION" to Judith Bandsma,
adding:
JG> Easy, Obesity is real, Obesity is hell ...therefore Hell is real !
JB> Fathead!
JG> I really don't know why you stoop to name calling to avoid conceding
JG> when a point has been made.
What is the most fun about you is your arrogant
assumption that you have MADE some sort of point, when all
you have done is utter a fallacious syllogism (excluded
middle) on the pattern of "God is love: love is blind:: Ray
Charles is God", one formerly suspected in a weak attempt at
humor. With the above, you demonstrate that you take your
silliness (and yourself) seriously.
And they think that repairing Maytags is a lonely
occupation. . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 26 Mar 96 13:35:49
EID:50b0 207a6c60
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31583c80
Jim Germiquet said "OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"" to Judith Bandsma,
adding:
JG> Exactly and at the time these "canals" were discovered, I was told
JG> about them. Later the opinion was that these "canals" were the result
JG> of the instrument being used to study the planet.
JB> I absolutely refuse to believe that you are over 100 years old.
JG> Eesh, again you pick on some irrelevent technical point and completely
JG> ignore the concept within the message .
Your "message" is so stupidly stated that it has no
concept to ignore.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: WACO WEB SITE
|Date: 26 Mar 96 20:30:49
EID:3642 207aa3c0
Whilst masticating on , Al Schroeder (1:116/19)
wrote to Alan Hess:
AS> On the other hand, she used to cover news. Now she is an industry, and
can
AS> run a show about her loss (or gain) of weight. She's become famous for
AS> trivialities.
Isn't that basically how all talk show hosts get famous? Oprah's no different
than the rest. Give her some credit, though - she's turned her show away
from featuring nutcases and fruitcakes. Of course, that's hurt her ratings,
because viewers want to see nutcases and fruitcakes.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 25 Mar 96 08:02:00
EID:a238 20794040
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423C52C
DC> RB> Wouldn't that be a 'twitorectomy' and require the services
DC> go to the doctor to take care of a Saladbaratoma...
RB> Then, Bustilloz will have to do something about her cattyracts.
DC> Right after Al get past his comicsitis attack..
I'm not sure what kind of ailments assail you...
... Don't ask me. The cats are in charge around here.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 25 Mar 96 09:06:00
EID:5f35 207948c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423CFF4
AS> I didn't say the fragment was penned by him personally. It was a
AS> copy, just a copy that indicates it was around at a fairly young
DC> Ok, so maybe it's a copy... A copy of what? Without a predating
DC> version, there is no way to justify that it is a copy of anything.
Could be. But it would be kind of an odd coincidence, that the oldest
fragment we have just happens to be the original. Especially since it was
found in EGYPT, not Palestine or Rome or Cyprus.
AS> time...just like we don't have any of the plays of Shakespeare from
AS> Will's own hand, but we do have plenty of early folios that work to
DC> I thought that the copies of the originals are what led scholars
DC> to think that at least some of the plays attributed to Willy were
DC> not penned by him...
I'm PRETTY sure that we don't have the original plays in Will's own hand,
although I believe we have some documents signed by him, legal ones. I
believe they compare the vast number of folios printed within his lifetime
and reach a consensus. Another thing sacrificed to the fire, my complete
Shakespeare. (Although some of his poetry...I believe there was a
discovery a few years ago which might be genuine Shakespeare.)
But yes, if you get something like Rowse's ANNOTATED SHAKESPEARE--I
thought it a poor version, but they will discuss in some detail how
certain copies have variations from the main text, and that what we see
is
the version the majority of texts carry. That for at the very least, most
of the plays, we have no originals.
AS> Well, James and John (the sons of Zebedee) are the only two
AS> disciples not mentioned by name in the Gospel of John who are
DC> Wait a minute there.... You have 2 people, not mentioned by
DC> name, yet you know there names?
Process of elimination. James and John are mentioned very prominently in
the other Gospels. The Gospel of John mentions all of them BUT those two,
but gives prominence to an unnamed "disciple Jesus loved best". From the
other Gospels, it seems most likely to be John...and of course, the writer
of the Gospel of John claims to BE the "disciple Jesus loved best" (I want
to see a Gospel by the disciple Jesus "just barely tolerated") and is
written in the same style as 1 John, where the writer explicitedly calls
himself "John".
AS> mentioned prominately in other gospels. The silence is significant,
I
AS> think. It's a literary deduction, but a permissable one, surely.
DC> And, just why didn't the author know all of the desciples names? It
DC> generally follows that the most mentioned are the most siginficant.
DC> Yet, you have 2 people, unmentioned, and they are given credit
DC> for the whole thing?
Again: same writing style as 1 John, where John is named as the writer.
It's not implied that the author DIDN'T know the name, but that he didn't
name them...either out of modesty, out of vanity ("the disciple Jesus
loved best" sounds more impressive than John), whatever.
DC> However, Al, the records of Pilate are extant and do not reflect
DC> in any way the bible story of the xification.
AS> WHAT???????????????????????????????
AS> WHERE????
AS> Seriously Dan, can you direct me to a reference? As far as I know,
AS> other than the mention in Josephus and the NT, and the coins found
DC> Try _Decptions and Myths of the Bible_, by Lloyd M. Graham ISBN
DC> 0-8065-1124-9, p. 343. Rabbi Wise, in the 19th Century searched
DC> those very archives and found nothing to evidence that the
DC> supposed trial ever too place.
Roman records? Jewish records? Okay, okay, I'll look it up. Just out of
curiosity, does it mention OTHER writings of Pilate? To the best of my
knowledge, the only evidence we have of Pilate save for the writings in
the NT and Josephus is some coins found in the mid-20th cnetury.
And I'm curious about Asimov's relative silence on same. If there were
other records of Pilate's that could not be disputed and there was a
gaping silence here, I WOULD regard that as suspicious but, by the same
token, I think he would too...and would have mentioned that. Ditto quite
a
few other skeptical authors I have read.
AS> contemporary accouts of Pilate. Are you saying we have the actual
AS> REPORTS that Pilate wrote concerning his administration of Palestine?
DC> If I'm reading it correctly, the court records reflect absolutely
DC> nothing about the alledged trial.
And they do about other trials? Do they mention either the Egyptian or
Theudas, both of whom are mentioned both in the NT and Josephus as
Messianic figures who were prosecuted, I wonder?
AS> don't mention that, and if they were available, I would think they
AS> would mention those records.
DC> You now have that reference...
Definitely heading for the library this Saturday. Will keep you posted...
... Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORM
|Date: 25 Mar 96 00:09:00
EID:80e3 20790120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423D332
DC> Not a bad choice, but my preference would seriously be Goldie Hawn.
AS> You and Kurt Russell, who is living with her, I believe.
DC> They did a great movie in _Overboard!_
They also have had a great couple of kids together, I believe.
AS> Ah, you're just "sucking up" to us theists (well, Lynda has been
DC> Funny, Mikey doens't seem to hold me in the same regard... ;)
That conjures up a picture of you and Mickey that I am desperately trying
to get rid of...
AS> accused so often of "sucking up" to atheists that I think she will get
AS> a kick out of the oppostie reaction.)...
DC> Well, a good chuckle is better than a kick in the groin, I always
DC> say.
Anytime.
AS> reserve it for those who REALLY deserves it. Like Grigor-Scott.
DC> He deserves the kick in the groin!
You sure that he has anything to hurt there?
... If everything seems to go right, check your zipper!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: DAYS
|Date: 25 Mar 96 00:01:00
EID:9d17 20790020
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423D72E
AS> But...wouldn't that be smaller...? Oh, well, I get the meaning
AS> anyway. But if you were TRULY masochistic, as your handle implies,
AS> you would be
AS> cheering the bad days, wouldn't you?
MM> Actually. some bad days I do cheer. If they create changes in the
MM> schedule or activities so that lots of good days follow. (Sneaky form
MM> of masochism.)
Anybody who would cut warts off in public is definitely pretty tough, I
agree...
... Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 26 Mar 96 08:09:00
EID:9779 207a4120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423DC10
AS> I was making fun of your typo, Anthony. Obviously you missed the
AS> point.
AG> Yes, I'm solly about that.
AS> Anthony, just about everyone in that part of the world are part of
AS> the Semitic peoples, both Arab and Hebrew.
AG> Yes, all EXCEPT the Jews, the vast majority of whom are Gentile stock
AG> with not one drop of Semitic blood.
And you can prove this with DNA testing? Of course, then you would have
to
define the charecteristics that define "Semitic". Many contemporary Jews
claim descent from David, and can produce better pedigrees buttressed by
more records than most descendents of William the Conqueror, despite the
fact that William lived two thousand years later.
AS> However, historically to be "anti-Semitic" is to discriminate
AS> between the people who call themselves Jewish.
AG> But this is not honest. The vast majority of those who call themselves
AG> `Jews' are NON-Semitic and ANIT-Semitic.
But you can't prove that. And before you trot out the "Jewish
Encyclopedia" you are so fond of, you might consult some of the Jewish
family trees in Burke's peerage, no slouch at geneaology, which
nevertheless accept the claims of some of the Jewish families who have
married into the peerage, stretching back to Bible days.
The truth is, Anthony, you CANNOT prove absolutely that the people you
claim are "Semitic" as opposed to the modern day Jews are any more
"Semitic" than the modern-day Jews. An intervening of three thousand years
and the drifting of peoples make such points, at best, moot. As silly as
asking a modern Englishman whether he is a Norman or a Saxon. It has been
estimated that practically any white person with European blood is likely
descendend from Charlemagne (and many non-whites as well, casual bastardy
always bound to be far greater than records indicate) due to the increase
in descendents. One person has two children, each of their children has
two, which makes four, each of their children have two, which makes eight
descendents...it spreads on and on. Probably EVERYONE in that area of the
world are descendents of Abraham, and probably both you and I are also,
despite Jewish attempts only to marry Jews.
AS> I have a cousin who converted to Judaism.
AG> That won't work today.
You let God worry about that, okay?
AS> If someone said a disparaging remark to her about her Judaism, it
AS> would be an "anti-Semitic" remark, despite the fact that my cousins
AS> is mainly Welsh and English by descent.
AG> Well that is an intentional perversion of language which the false or
AG> self-styled Jews employ.
And the rest of the English-speaking world. Except for a few bigots.
AS> Quite frankly, Anthony, I see the Israelis as much victims these
AS> days, especially with the wave of bombings,
AG> You know, they stole that land from the Hebrew (Semitic) Israelite and
AG> Arab residents (also Semitic). Have you ever bothered to discover what
AG> happened to their victims? Also, we read that those who live by the
AG> sword die by the sword. Modern Israel was founded on terrorism and
AG> murder and certainly not by faith as was Israel of old.
(Gentle smile.) Are you saying there was no violence when the Holy Land
was first given to the Jews?
AS> I do not attach much importance to bloodline in this matter.
AG> But God does. And that's all that matters.
Unfortunately, Anthony, I don't think you have a direct line to him. No
matter what you think. John is very explicit about those who hate their
brothers, and other passages make it clear that "brothers" includes other
men.
AS> Jesus said God could make the very stones into sons of Abraham if He
AS> chose.
AG> And He has. Christians are Abraham's seed by the baptism of the Holy
AG> Ghost (or new birth). But Israel is forsaken until the times of the
AG> Gentiles be come in at which time God will deal with 12,000 from each
AG> tribe. The whole basis of the Bible is _blood_. The life is in the
AG> blood.
Unfortunately, if you will study the OT, you will find that adoption
(which is provided for) entails the adoptee being part of the bloodline,
in legal fiction if not actual geneaology. Hence the part of Jesus'
geneaology that actually refers to Joseph is not irrelevant, in Jewish
eyes. Jesus was still "heir" to Joseph and all his ancestors, even though
Joseph was not the literal father.
AS> I only see bias and delusion and hate for your brother.
AG> That's because you have not taken what I have written back to God's
AG> Word.
I have indeed, Anthony. And I find nothing but distortion and bigotry. I
found a web page with Brother Branham's teaching. It disturbed me more
than you know, that someone would be regarded a Prophet who teaches such
things contrary to Jesus' teachings. But still, it was foretold that many
would claim to speak in His name, and Jesus would know them not.
AS> Jesus believed the Jews of His time were His brothers, and the
AS> Samaritans His neighbor.
AG> But he also said those who were Spiritually sons of Abraham would
AG> receive Him and not seek to kill Him. read John 8.
And He also said, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. If
Jesus on the cross forgives all those who were responsible for His death,
Jew and Gentile--are you going then to say that His forgiveness was not
absolute? Are you going to second-guess Jesus?
AS> But I only see divisiveness and a foolish misuse of God's word to
AS> justify your own pet theories and prejudice, on your part.
AG> That's because you lack the Spirit.
With all due respect, Anthony, many have claimed the Spirit...from nuts
like Koresh and Jim Jones, to those who I think honestly are moved by Him.
The Pope claims to be moved by the Holy Spirit. Yet he would disagree with
you on numerous points. How to choose between you? The only way I can do
it is by reading the Word and seeing which falls closest to Jesus'
teachings. I think you BOTH fail the test. But I think the Pope is closer
than you are.
And what you preach concerning Jews or, those who call themselves Jews,
if you prefer, has been the sort of thing that nearly brought barbarism
to
the civilized world on a scale unprecedented, some fifty years ago in
Germany. I can only hope someday you will lift those willful blinders and
see what historians teach us about the Holocaust...read people like John
Tolland, Elie Weisal, and others...and realize it is neither a conspiracy
nor a fraud, but honest truth verified by hundreds of thousands.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: All
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 25 Mar 96 01:07:00
EID:6335 207908e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423DEFE
-=> Quoting Anthony Grigor-scott to Mark Craig <=-
AG> My Brother, we have to pass through _all_ of the stages God has
Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together. Witness the birth
of the new Nazi party.
... Nie wieder Faschismus! (in English: Fascism, never again) ...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 25 Mar 96 01:04:00
EID:4c40 20790880
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423E214
AS> Again, C.S. Lewis. "God does not shake miracles into Nature at
AS> random like a pepper-caster. They come on great occasions; they
AS> are found at the great ganglions of history--not of political
AS> and social history, but of that spiritual history which cannot
AS> be fully known by men.
JH> I love that last clause he tacks onto it.
JH> It renders his entire claim totally untestable.
Not necessarily, although acknowledging that there is no way to test where
the spiritual history is at such a ganglion. But it does imply that
miracles cluster together, or, if you like, reports of miracles cluster
together. Which DOES seem to be the case. There are skeptical ages and
there are ages which have reports of all manner of bizarreness.
JH> "It's not random! It follows a pattern you can not perceive!"
You could follow the patterns of reports of miracles. While granting that
there are miracles reported in every age, some have more than others. Is
there any sort of pattern? Does it follow any sort of external
circumstances...do reports of miracles follow economic hard times, or
times of little education? Or are they seperate? This would be interesting
even from a sociological point of view. For instance, I don't believe in
astrology. Around the turn of the century, nobody but a few occultist
kooks believed in astrology, but since the sixties there are quite a few
people who take it seriously, even presidents and presidents' wives.
What triggers such?
... "Miracles are not so cheap as all that."--Father Brown.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FRIED ICE CREAM
|Date: 25 Mar 96 02:09:00
EID:b251 20791120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423F538
AS> Barb experiments a lot. Most of the time they are hits, but there are
AS> a few misses, too. I wish I had gotten my father's recipe for hash
AS> browns before he died.
DC> Me too... I come close but never have been able to get them to
DC> come out "right". As much as recipes are a science, the technique
DC> in making them _IS_ and art!
I know my mother tried...and failed, using the same recipe. With Pop, it
was definitely an art. But I might try to get it from her, what she
remembers, the next time I talk with her, and perhaps you could experiment
with it and perhaps get closer.
AS> He would cook them all afternoon in an iron
AS> skillet,
DC> Good choice of weapons, as my best meals are made in one!
Yes. My mother was a passable cook, but the only thing she was excellent
on was fried chicken. Pop would usually cook the weekend meals, and cook
pot roasts with slices of onions and nude potatoes, or spaghetti (my wife
uses a variation of the recipe) or chili (the blister your mouth kind) or
the hash browns with chicken breasts cooked in white wine...
AS> things mixed in. Pop would make them once or twice a month, and it was
AS> one of those things I could have three or four helpings on.
DC> Best I can say is keep on trying and making minor variations. It
DC> may be in the spices, or it may be in the type of potatoes that
DC> you use. It may be also on the shortening or the temperature
DC> you cook it at.
We'll keep trying. BTW, Barb said I was the best husband for a young wife
to have, because I like my meat...uh...very well done. And most everything
else. It's genetic. My maternal grandfather would go into a restaurant and
say, "I'd like a piece of toast...burned. Not well done. Burned." If
someone zaps their popcorn in the microwave too long, they bring it to me.
So if Barb accidentally burned the meal, unless it was absolutely
charcoal, I usually ate and enjoyed it. She's gotten a lot better, though.
(I must admit I am a lousy cook. I used to cook for my grandmother, but
it
would be Stouffer's, usually.)
DC> Then, too, it may just be how you remember how he made them
DC> for _you_. (Trust me in this, as my cousins claim I make my
DC> raisin bread at as well as my Dad, but I personally don't think
DC> so. His was and always will be better than my best attempt
DC> at his forte, even if I have matched or even exceeded it.)
Could be. But I know my mother couldn't match his.
... Confuse people: start making sense.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 25 Mar 96 02:08:00
EID:e6fe 20791100
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423FEA2
AS> Okay, I'll admit my ignorance here. What was so controversial about
AS> Saint Christopher?
DM> That's "Mister" Christopher to you, ever since--I believe--the
DM> 70s. The Vatican looked into the backgrounds of some of their more
DM> miraculous personages and concluded in Chris' case that not only did
DM> the evidence fall short of supporting his sainthood, but also it was
DM> insufficient to support the guy's very existence. Not that such
DM> stirrings of officialdom keeps him from lounging and leaning upon
DM> the billowing breasts of millions of good Catholic girls in need of
DM> his special services, nonexistent though they may be.
Oh, yeah, the great Saint shakeout. I think St. George got disalloweed at
the same time.
DM> Later, you say to me:
DM> understood by native speakers of those languages? I can
DM> sound very French so long as no sneaky Francophones are in
DM> the audience.
AS> Acts 2:1-13. The foreigners in Jerusalem each heard them speaking in
AS> their own language, Parthians, Medes, Egyptian, Romans, etc.
DM> One man's Mede is another man's Persian.
I wish I had said that. I was Egypted.
AS> It seems
AS> to be a VERY different experience from what modern charismatic
AS> churches experience, where one person is basically babbling and
AS> another one is telling the rest that they are saying the Gettysburg
AS> address.
DM> As Linda explained it, it was more Babelfish-like (and here we
DM> thought that Adams was making that stuff up . . . )
As I remember her post, she acknowledged the difference between the
Pentecostal tongues experience from Paul's, but I admit I don't have it
in
front of me. (In the description of them, anyway...)
AS> I'm sure, since condoms were not widely circulated or bought. Many
AS> of them consisted of the pre-1900 equivelent of the woman who has a
AS> child and leaves it in a dumpster. But, I think if you will look at
AS> the statistics, it is a TINY fraction of the population and...more
AS> importantly...not condoned by society as a whole.
DM> 1.5 million abortions annually is a TINY fraction of a
DM> population of 260 million, yet there are some who get all worked up
DM> about it. And infanticide was institutionalized in the 18th and 19th
Well, but Don...IF you regard the fetus as a human being, then it would
only take four years to equal the amount of Jews killed in the Holocaust.
Again, it is a matter of definition. If you regard the fetus as a human
being, it is a murder, if you regard it as a part of the mother, what's
the big deal? And I think it is an impasse of axioms, of definitions,
rather than anything else.
DM> centuries in the form of foundling hospitals. In England, these
DM> farmed out the kids to "baby farmers" who got something like ten
DM> shillings to care for the tad and who would come back for another in
DM> a couple of months, saying "the last poor tyke just never thrived
DM> and went to his Maker." Usually it never thrived because of a
DM> liberal use of "Mother's Friend" (gin) to keep it quiet. Napolean
Although didn't they perscribe alchohol for a lot of different things,
like snakebite, even when it didn't do any good, in the 19th century?
Besides, I have a question...ah...but I think I'll hold it till the end.
DM> established the French version, which included a sort of lazy susan
DM> device in the wall for dropping off unwanted babies anonymously, and
DM> since the French didn't believe in the use of gin, the kids mostly
DM> just starved. Both systems were kept very busy and had a mortality
DM> rate of about 90%. Country folk, without such urban niceties, simply
Are you saying those institutions had a mortality rate of 90%, or the
countries had a mortality rate of 90% for infants?
DM> drowned infants in ditches (you'll remember the witch's formula from
DM> Shakespeare's Macbeth calling for body parts of babies "ditch
DM> delivered by a drab", referring to the practice of dropping and
DM> drowning in a one-stop service), or "overlay" them in bed (cf
DM> Marilyn Burge on this heading in today's bag here).
But...quite frankly, Don...aren't we stretching this by calling this birth
control? This is infanticide, clearly.
DM> The kids who survived in England were typically apprenticed at
DM> age 6 to the only trade that paid for (rather than demanding payment
DM> of) apprentices: the trade of chimney sweeping. Our Republicans did
DM> not invent cost-cutting techniques for public welfare systems,
DM> embrace those techniques though they may. In England, the kid rarely
DM> survived the apprenticeship period (which is why the demand for
DM> replacements was so great. Those who did often developed amusing
DM> diseases like cancer of the scrotum from the soot. At least that
DM> would help hold their birthrates down without resort to abortion.
But of course, that was true of orphans and many another child not reared
by a family. Child labor was common. Does that mean that the average child
under such awful conditions would have rather not been born, and would
meet death gladly?
Not really.
AS> If you think the
AS> average US citizen of 1850 said, "Oh, by the way, my wife had
AS> another child the other day, but we didn't need another mouth to
AS> feed, so I offed the brat," you are sadly mistaken...and if they DID,
AS> they would be looked on with horror and as a murderer.
DM> Why would you accuse me of thinking such a moronic thing? For
DM> one thing, the pattern usually did not involve anyone about capable
DM> of saying "My wife . . . ", as it was usually the act of some
DM> wretched woman acting alone; for another, people do many things
DM> without talking about them. You don't hear many people saying today,
DM> "Oh, by the way, we whipped the wife down to the abortion clinic for
DM> a little drape and scrape t'other day," now DO you? Yet abortions
DM> are legal in this country, the way infanticide never was.
I know many women who have had abortions. I paid for one myself (a female
relative, the father was a waiter without a penny). Others who are quite
frank about the abortions if you asked about them. Not so for
infanticides, then OR now.
DM> No, infanticide was not socially condoned in the 19th century;
DM> it was mostly not talked about. The one exception to this was its
DM> use as a plot element in novels of the time (indicating something
DM> about how widespread the practice was: plot elements depend upon
DM> real events, not unthinkable ones), often by way of contrast to show
DM> how much more honourable it was for a single, pregnant girl to
DM> committ suicide than to hurl a newborn into a millrace, and the
DM> moralists probably had a point there, if you overlook the fact that
DM> the impact upon the fetus/child was essentially the same.
Yet Goethe's FAUST has Faust's love (which I have unaccontably forgotten
the name of. Rosamunde? alas for the books I lost in the fire..) as having
drowned her baby that was Faust's bastard. And even implied that she was
saved, despite that sin on her.
DM> Besides, infanticide was largely the province of the Lower
DM> Orders, whose peccadilloes, so long as they did not harm their
DM> betters, were often shrugged at, just as white Americans today often
DM> shrug at black crime that does not affect "the nice neighborhoods."
True. But of course MURDERS are largely the province of the lower orders,
too, despite such exceptions as the Menendez brothers.
AS> You have to go to a pre-Chrisian culture to find
AS> ones that routinely approved of exposing unwanted children,
DM> Christians have ever preferred the covert to honesty.
Well...would you rather we openly approve of infanticide? There have
always been murders and thefts. Should we approve them because they have
always been with us?
AS> with the exception of the medieval
AS> superstition of the changeling, and the only way they justified that
AS> was by saying the child was not really a human at all.
DM> Now, would you care to cite ONE example of a Greek exposed child
DM> OTHER than Oedipus? If you cannot (and I rather expect you cannot,
DM> as who the hell knows of any other than he?) consider the parallals:
DM> you cite a medieval superstition as a half-assed "justification",
DM> while Liaus and Jocasta acted upon the advice of the orthodox
DM> religion of the day. The forecast (from Appollo, god of truth, and
DM> certainly in this case spot on) was that the kid would kill his
DM> father and marry his mother.. In horror, they nailed (some versions
DM> say "bound") the kid's ankles together and had him exposed on a
DM> rock, feeling that his death was far preferable (to himself as well
DM> as to them) to his fulfillment of the prophecy (and if you had the
DM> word of the god you believe in that a kid of yours was going to do
DM> such a thing, would you do any differently?). The only problem with
DM> the plan was that it didn't work--it was so hard to get good help
DM> back then: if you wanted a kid exposed on a rock, you had to do it
DM> for yourself. Had Laius done so, we would not today have an Oedipus
DM> story, as the kid would NOT have grown up to kill his father and
DM> marry his mother.
DM> Now, barring any other examples on your part, how does this
DM> comport with a society (one without the blessings of a higher
DM> Christian morality) that "routinely approved of exposing unwanted
DM> children." In what way is the Oedipus story "routine?"
Well...first off, there are numerous stories of children being exposed in
MYTHOLOGY, which is all you are talking about, even Greek mythology. It's
part of the classic Campbellian pattern...child sent away to die, found
by
kindly foster parents, becomes prince who returns, etc. But I wasn't
talking about Oedipus, since no one can prove he existed.
I was thinking more of Robin Lane Fox's work of history, PAGANS AND
CHRISTIANS, concerning the gradual move from paganism to Christianity
between the first and third centuries. Fox, a historian of impeccable
credentials, talked of the practice of exposing, for instance, unwanted
female children, which resulted in a gender imbalance among grown adults,
and thought that was one reason Christianity gained such swift converts
among women, to the point that some Romans regarded Christianity as a
"woman's religion"...even as some see the Goddess-related religions today.
I don't have the book in front of me, but if you like I can check into it
this weekend, but Fox is a nontheist historian of impeccable credentials,
whom Larry Sites, for instance, has quoted and used quite frequently. I
assume that Fox used records from funerary inscriptions and such. He
sounded quite definite on that point, however. (Sounding much like the
practice that was common both in China and some parts of India until
recently.) If you like, I would certainly be glad to check his references,
but in a tome that was not at all complimentary of Christianity in most
places, I had no reason to doubt him.
... If you see any misspelled words it HAS to be line noise.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE ON THE WEB!
|Date: 26 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:469f 207a4800
MSGID: 1:116/19 04240258
AS> As one older person to another...when you first log on, the option
AS> that says, "pray for us"---that brings up an email form to send your
AS> comments to.
DM> That would certainly be the last button _I_ would push. You can
DM> also click on Ryan's name. However, the Web set-up at work is not
DM> fully implemented, and I generally cannot do email through it.
I understand. I personally was expecting some sort of trap...I dunno, the
Devil appearing and going, "you rang?" Or a big sign going, "WHAT SOULS,
YOU IDIOT???"
AS> BTW, saw your picture at Ryan Shaw's unofficial web site. I think
AS> you're probably the most distinguished looking of the pictured ones.
DM> At my age, distinguished is easy; the hard part is avoiding
DM> extinguished.
Lest your life be relinquished.
... A child educated only at school is an uneducated child. - Santayana
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: LAST RITES
|Date: 25 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:c11a 20791920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04240730
AS> Hmmm. But don't they give that AS they are dying? Not after they are
AS> dead. A suicide would already be dead, if they succeeded in suicide.
DC> That maybe true, but the Catholic Church views that a bit differently:
DC>
DC> It gives absolution retroactively. Extreme Unction used to be
DC> used only for the living, but it has been made available to those
DC> that are already dead. And, as I understand it, suicide is now
DC> treated as a mental problem, allowing them to be given the
DC> sacrament.
Was it so in Hitler's time, I wonder? I know there were cases even in the
sixties of bodies being moved in Catholic graveyards because they found
out it was suicide, not accident, as they first proposed.
DC> NOt sure when the rules changed, but it has been available for
DC> quite sometime. After the all, the "Hir goes to hell because
DC> hir killed hirself" was not exactly comforting to the family
DC> of the deceased.
You got THAT right.
... Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: MESSAGE TO ASMODEUS
|Date: 25 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:77da 20791920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04240C76
AS> And if they put each other on their twit lists, how would we decide
AS> who won?
DC> That's easy! We count the posts not to but about the other twit.
DC> The one with the most messages about the other twit wins. A
DC> modification of the 10 point must system could rate style in
DC> their verbiage against the other.
Echo Olympics. Freestyle Message Irgnoring. But...what if Tonya Harding
comes in and tries to break their typing fingers?
AS> We need someone who is agressively adamant against even the
DC> In the above scenario, we get the final combatants into a
DC> no-twit, winner takes all. We put it on P[l]ay-For-Dough and
DC> rake in some big box offices. With luck, it will last longer
DC> that the last Tyson fight and at maybe have participants with
DC> a moral character surpassing that cretin, which won't take much...
It's amazing the number of people at work who were ready to excuse Tyson's
rape on the grounds that he can fight well. Of course, considering OJ,
maybe not...or for that matter, G.Gordon Liddy.
... The Senate: More dinosaurs than Jurassic Park!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: murders
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:09:00
EID:4791 20792120
MSGID: 1:116/19 04241860
AS> Actually, this is one of those passages that trouble any thinking
AS> believer. I am offering guesses, but can't even specifically prove
AS> the Molech-sacrifice.
MH> If you believe that the Bible reveals a consistent God, then we can
MH> expect that his order to destroy the Midianites follows the same
MH> pattern as his destruction of the whole world with the flood, or the
MH> destruction of Sodom. Specifically:
MH> Genesis 6:5-8
MH> 5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become,
MH> and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
MH> all the time.
MH> 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his
MH> heart was filled with pain.
MH> 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from
MH> the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along
MH> the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made
MH> them."
MH> 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
MH> Genesis 18:22-26,32
MH> 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained
MH> standing before the LORD.
MH> 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the
MH> righteous with the wicked?
MH> 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you
MH> really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the
MH> fifty righteous people in it?
MH> 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with
MH> the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it
MH> from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
MH> 26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of
MH> Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
MH> 32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just
MH> once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For
MH> the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
MH> In other words, God doesn't resort to total destruction until
MH> depravity is total. Although it doesn't explicitly say this about the
MH> Midianites, if God is consistent, then it must be true of their
MH> situation as well.
Well, it sounds good, but one cannot deny it is a hard passage to explain,
and bear in mind who we are trying to explain it to, Mike. I think an
honest "I don't know" or at least, "I'm not sure how it fits in," is not
out of place.
... Maybe this world is another planet's Hell.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:a0a3 20792040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04242742
JH> attentions. I'm sure they'd be releaved if people marched on
JH> Nashville or Kansas City for a change and let them deal with the
DW> I'm sure you're relieved to know that the Oilers are coming to
DW> Nashville. Now we get to deal with the traffic tie-ups caused by
DW> no-neck football fans driving to see the game in person. UT football
DW> season fucks traffic up at this end of the state bad enough as it is.
And we're paying to have the stadium built, to boot. Oh, I suppose it will
eventually earn us money. Bredeson is all for it, and he's one of our
better mayors. But I don't really care if we get a pro football team or
not.
... Never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid doing entirely.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Perspectives
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:07:00
EID:e0f2 207920e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04242C1A
AS> the Canaannites et al, but still, in one religion, dying in battle
AS> is REQUIRED to earn Valhalla, whereas in the other asking
MM> Ever hear of the Christian armor listed by Paul? Do you think it is
MM> literal armor for a literal battle? Perspectives vary, but I see
MM> Valhalla as reward for fighting the fight and winning the ract that
MM> Paul discussed. Right living is cast as fighting the good fight. When
MM> I look into myth, I usually find that as much is to be gained by
MM> realizing that this is a teaching story.
But of course, that was not how the Vikings, who WERE Aesir-worshippers,
viewed it.
AS> forgiveness of sins is required. In others, reaching bliss means
MM> The sacrificial king who dies that his land flourishes is not that far
MM> from the king whose blood saves the world.
Of course, and there are certainly specific parallels given in both the
OT
and thenew.
AS> We very well might be arguing over perspective. But...I used to,
AS> on a local Fidonet echo, get into long protracted arguments with a
AS> Wiccan concerning this..he thought ALL religions are aspects of the
AS> same God. EVEN though it would make God seriously schizophrenic.
MM> Hey, just reading the Bible I find a bit of schizophrenia. "Thou shalt
MM> not kill." and "Kill them all" comes from the same source in the old
MM> testament. But being able to learn from every source I can, and decide
MM> which ones lead to ethics I choose to have in my life is an enjoyment
MM> of the study of religion/mythology for me.
And I don't want to deprive you of it. We must always be open to what
breezes of Divine wisdom we can find. Certainly there is much of interest
in other religions...the meditation and non-violence of Buddhism, the
fervor and purity of the monotheism of Islam, the comic vistas and cycles
of Hinduism, etc. One can admire and even learn without granting it to be
truth, however.
MM> The difference only seem so schizophrenic when you attempt to claim
MM> that any one source is the only source of knowledge or enlightenment.
Well...okay, let's remove it from Christianity. Islam insists there is
only one God, and Mohammed is the Seal of the Prophets. Whereas Hinduism
insists that there are many gods (who are all aspects of the dream of
Brahma) who manifest themselves as avatars, and will again (Vishnu's
return is foretold). The Hindu cosmos is a cyclical one, the Islamic one
has a onetime end of the world in which the unbelievers are put in Hell
forever and ever. That, I think, would be a challenge to reconcile. Not
impossible. You might want to speak with Rick Mcfarlane, who is of the
Baha'i faith, which as you may know, says Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha,
Mohammed and Baha'ullah are aspects of the Divine.
MM> If that blind man was saying that all of the other blind men had
MM> experienced a true aspect of diety, and that making them all fit into
MM> the description, I'd say he was wise. If he said, that people who have
MM> never experienced elephant in any manner could state an aspect of
MM> elephant and it too would be correct, I can see where the difficulty
MM> could arise. However, I would probably ask him how he intigrated the
MM> perspectives into a total picture. (Doing so, I would probably learn
MM> as much about that individual as I would about his/her view of
MM> elephant.)
MM> Like I have said before.... I'm curious. I ask lots of questions.
Good. That's the way to learn. And even questioning what you do learn is
not a bad idea. As you say, you must ask how to integrate them into a
total picture.
MM> The intolerance is part of my life exposure that makes that path a
MM> little more than uncomfortable for me. A "My way or the Highway"
MM> attitude is one I choose not to exhibit.
That's fine. I was probably burned too badly by that friend I told you of,
who would not even concede there WAS a single truth behind all the "masks"
of God.
AS> exclusionist, intolerant views...yet they are the right attitude to
MM> That remains to be seen. I find intolerant views usually are results
MM> of lack of understanding.
But yet, nothing else works in science, at least. The search for the one
truth is very essential to it. I'm really not pleading for intoleration,
but rather a knowledge that all of us might have an imperfect knowledge
of
the Divine, and that we must all strive for a closer approach, not accept
all views as equal.
MM> I enjoyed the vieww of scientific theory developing out of
MM> philosophies from religions of the past. Thanks.
No problem.
... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:01:00
EID:ee55 20792020
MSGID: 1:116/19 04242F76
AS> Y'know, I had forgotten both DeVito and Christopher Lloyd were in
AS> that, years before TAXI...I mainly remembered Jack Nicholson.
DC>
DC> I didn't know that... Looks like I'll have to get a copy of it
DC> and do a re-view. As forwhat I remember the most was Nurse
DC> "Rat-shit" and the BIG! Indian.
I cheated. I looked in my wife's VIDEOHOUND MOVIE GUIDE.
BTW, Ken Kesey wrote ONE as a Christ-allegory, as a lot of novels are
written. Well, he did another novel, called SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION,
where he used a Captain MArvel-allegory, since he felt comics were "modern
mythology." (It wasn't as good, but it was a noble attempt...)
... OK, I'm weird! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Time for a chuckle or two
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:07:00
EID:6e2c 207920e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 042432AA
MB> REASONS WHY E-MAIL IS LIKE A PENIS:
MB> Some folks have it, some don't. Those who have it would be
MB> devastated if it were ever cut off. They think that those who don't
MB> have it are somehow inferior. They think it gives them power. They are
MB> wrong. Those who don't have it may agree that it's a nifty toy, but
MB> think it's not worth the fuss that those who do have it make about it.
MB> Still, many of those who don't have it would like to try it.
And, like many other things, some have more of a point than others...
... I'm not evil, I'm "morally challenged".
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: YOU BORE ME
|Date: 26 Mar 96 09:02:00
EID:7cb0 207a4840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04243584
AS> differently, I would at least want to have the body exhumed. (I.E.,
AS> check the tomb...as some other people did, some two thousand years
DC> As Judea was under Roman rule at the time, do you have a writ
DC> that shows that the tomb was exhumed? Better yet, do you have
DC> even an exact location for the tomb in question?
No. According to the story, it wasn't needed. It was...unaccountably,
unless you accept miracles...open. And interestingly enough, such an
exhumanation was not ordered by the authorities, either, even though it
would be the easiest way to shut up anyone who was going around saying
Jesus was resurrected...as if the tomb were already open and they kneew
it.
DC> BTW, I still have 3 or 4 messages to get back to you on, but
DC> I've been trying to "pace" them, as you are as prolific and
DC> then some as a responder as I am.
No problem. It's not a race. I just like to "talk". Or course, there IS
the matter of the royalty checks Styx is sending us, right... ?
DC> Good luck on the race for Numero Uno Poster this year.
DC> Carbon Copies:
DC> Every one on Earth
DC> (Put's me some 5+ Billion ahead!)
Why not send one to everyone, living or dead? That should total one
hundred billion. You're not going to let a piddling thing like someone
being dead stop you, will you? (Besides, if you get some answers back from
the dead ones, think of how famous you'll be!)
... It's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 25 Mar 96 05:08:00
EID:9b8e 20792900
MSGID: 1:116/19 0424398A
MC>> I see where Farrakhan has been brought before the Knesset, USA.
MC>> It appears that the Jews are trying to crucify him. Well,
MC>> that's nothing new. He needs to join with the militia, and
MC>> declare economic war against the Establishment. United we
MC>> stand, divided we fall.
AS> Anyone catch the Orwellian "doublethink" here? Quoting, "United
AS> we stand, divided we fall" while trying to divide Jews from the
AS> mainstream of American thinking, and holding up Farrakhan's
AS> extremist views (and for that matter, paramilitary militias such
AS> as were exposed after the OKC thing) as something to be admired,
AS> and to buck the "Establishment"...which, by definition, must be
AS> the majority.
JH> I never got that far... the idea of Farrakhan joining a militia was
JH> enough to floor me.
Yeah, let's see Farrakhan in the middle of the Aryan Nation types.
JH> And while I suspect that some "networking" may actually exist
JH> between characters like Farrakhan and David Duke (whatever you think
JH> of them, you'll be making a grave mistake to think them stupid.
JH> They've both demonstrated a genius for manipulating their followers
JH> and the media), there may (or may not) be some sharing of
JH> information and resources between such extremes you'll never
JH> see an open collaboration.
Wouldn't suprise me a bit. And I try not to underrate him. Hitler signed
a
treaty with Stalin, remember...which of course, he later broke. People
underrated Hitler for a while, and look what happened there...
... Cthulhu in '96. Why vote for the LESSER evil?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 27 Mar 96 00:34:00
EID:835d 207b0440
PID: RA 2.5.g1 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56f72ab0
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 894C0E2B
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
DC>123/1 43 67 305 318
DC>157/586 167/92 1103
DC>-> On 03-24-96 02:51, Mark Craig got back to Preston Simpson
DC> PS> MC> Coalition, are a Zionist front organization.
DC>
DC> PS> Nobody cares what you believe, as you are a moron of the
DC> PS> first water.
DC> MC> Your "mama" is calling you.
DC>That's "mamma", dipshit. IOW, someone that you have never
DC>known.
DC>And, as to Preston's depiction of you, let me be the first to
DC>urinate on you, unless you are already on fire. If you are
DC>on
DC>fire, do allow me to pour a bit more gasoline on you.
Your "mamy" is calling you.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: All
|Sub: Conference Guidelines
|Date: 27 Mar 96 00:22:02
EID:0724 207b02c0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 2b165b97
Re: HOLYSMOKE Echo Guidelines
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Basic Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in this echo are those of the writers
identified in the header of each message. No other responsibility
is expressed or implied for the content of the messages in this echo.
Rules to Follow:
[1] Please refrain from attempting to force your ideas on others,
or to be deliberately disruptive in the echo.
Those who engage in such activity may find their feed to this
echo terminated.
[2] As is customary in echomail, private messages are not allowed.
[3] If you wish to post messages on this echo please try to keep
your comments and ideas on a rational level. This will help
to facilitate an open and free flowing dialogue.
Please refrain from entering statements like:
"I know I'm right and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid!"
or
"You're gonna burn in hell if you don't accept god."
Such messages only serve to irritate others, and do little
more than to raise the noise level of the echo.
[4] Attempt to quote only relevant text, in order to make your
messages more legible, and to lessen the burden on those
who pay to move each byte posted in this conference.
[5] Deliberate censorship of wording contained within a quote
attributed to another in this echo is expressly forbidden.
Echo Purpose: (To let you hear what you just said) ;-)
This echo provides an open forum where one can argue for or against
religion(s). Both religious and anti-religious views are allowed.
Atheists, agnostics, religious right-wingers, bible babblers,
bible bashers, preachers of doom, echovangelists, conservatives,
liberals and those with (hopefully curable) crucifixation are welcome
in HOLYSMOKE. (As long as they abide by the guidelines above!)
Enjoy and happy debating!
Styx Allum, Moderator (1:152/20)
P.O. Box 5150
Eugene, OR 97405-0150
---
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sid Vicious
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 26 Mar 96 17:15:04
EID:79ea 207a89e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 315962eb
REPLY: 1:2805/5.2 315224dc
RJ> Don't I know you from CIVLIB, about a year ago?
SV> Been reading "How to Pick-up Women" again?
Hah! Look who's talking about trolling FIDO for women!
... I.N.R.I. - I'm Not Really Ingestible
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: FIJA Lunacy on your BBS
|Date: 26 Mar 96 17:19:02
EID:d49f 207a8a60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 315962ec
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2895bc2a
SM> Clay's largest -- and most reliable -- HEADACHES in the FIJA Echo are
SM> the Terry Parkers and Ralph Stokes's. REPEATEDLY, Clay has had to
Stokes is a pain a mite lower.
SM> remind the Echo that the range of interest in FIJA goes WELL beyond
SM> that of the rightwing extremists.
I'll bet the armchair commandos must _love_ all the Long-
haired Dope-Smoking Hippies and Uppity Negroes trying to
horn in on their private right, huh?
SM> Next time I get a post like that from Clay in FIJA, I'll let you and
SM> frice know......
Okeydoke.
... I've never fallen in love, but I've stepped in it a few times.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: RABIES SHOTS ANYONE?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:47:27
EID:67a8 207b55e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31596300
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> Date: 03-18-96 12:20 From: Bryan Keller
JH> Can he receive NetMail at that address?
JB> As far as I know, he can. This one's sounding more and more like Bryce
JB> Wellington every day...only more violent.
Let's find out how he feels about the French.
... Happiness is 9,10-Didehydo-N,N-diethyl-6-methylergoline-8B-carboxamide
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:47:27
EID:9785 207b55e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31596301
REPLY: 1:280/26 771246e8
SM> The lyrics of Yes are perfectly easily understood!! [gdr]
RB> Mountains come out of the sky and they stand there...
RB> Hmmm...yes, you're right.
Sure, if you're looking at the album cover...
... What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! - Pope Leo X
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Proof's in the putting.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:47:27
EID:c80c 207b55e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31596302
ML> Martin Goldberg, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip,
ML> said to Jim Germiquet:
JG> How very true. God is a spirit.
ML>
ML> If God's a spirit, what's his proof?
ML>
Zero.
... Happiness is 9,10-Didehydo-N,N-diethyl-6-methylergoline-8B-carboxamide
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sid Vicious
|Sub: who wrote it
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:47:27
EID:7e44 207b55e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31596303
REPLY: 1:2805/5.2 56f3c61e
MG> SV> Speaking of braindead, where's Rectal?
MG>Haven't seen him for about three weeks. Called his system.
MG>Got a "no carrier".
SV> What about Prayer Warrior? You think that's really Fatherley, or are
SV> Diehard and Critter playing some kind of game?
I have some doubts about it at the moment. I'll have a
better guess after a couple of weeks or two dozen posts,
which ever comes first.
... "Dear Diary: My teen angst has a body count."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ASS-UMPTION
|Date: 26 Mar 96 18:54:00
EID:7b4a 207a96c0
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Roger Hunter <=-
MH> Are you saying that an assumption is the same as an "established
MH> fact?" For that was Wotan's insistence -- not that the null set is
MH> assumed to be true, but that it is an "established fact."
The difference is negligible. We assume the null hypothesis to be true
and it stands as established if all tests fail to disprove it.
No one has disproved "There is no God".
... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Mar 96 18:56:00
EID:94de 207a9700
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Roger Hunter <=-
MH> If someone fights for the other side up until the point you break
MH> through the enemy line and face him down, how much credibility will
MH> you give his claim that "I was on your side all along?"
Bad analogy. I had something like an honest disbeliever in mind,
who becomes convinced only after death but still suffers like Hitler.
... A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:49
EID:b761 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f71
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Al Schroeder Re: YOUR DAILY MURDER wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AS> to me. If you love them, no matter how frustrated, you don't hurt
AS> them. I am very old-fashioned about this. Of course there are women
One wonders if this "old-fashioned" idea is such a bad one. I tend to take
a dim view of any man who strikes a woman without extremely justifiable
reasons, and those who do it simply because "she started it!" are possibly
the most reprehensible of all, IMO. It's irritating and disgusting to
see an ostensible male human being who seems to advocate slapping women
around as a form of keeping them under control.
Sheesh. Hasn't Jim ever heard of the proposition that adult human beings
should be treated as such and not as punching bags or baby machines?
AS> on them. It just doesn't...register with me. I don't see the need, and
AS> I sure don't see any justification for it.
Myself, I haven't seen any need for violence at all unless I am threatened
or someone I care about is threatened. Having never encountered such a
situation, I cannot say for certain what I would do, save that I would make
every effort to be efficient about the solution I took.
AS> This is the same guy who said it was humane to do the Numbers 31
AS> thing, and then later said it was "tongue in cheek". I'm sorry, I'm
a
Puts me in mind of the people who used to bully me in grade school and then
say that they were "just kidding." It is possible that that phrase and
others like it are the only words that can make me utterly enraged. It
implies cowardice on the part of the user and simultaneously insults my
intelligence to a degree that I don't much care for.
AS> believer, but I don't think it's soething I can pass by lightly or
AS> call "humane". It's like I'm proud to be an American and all that, but
AS> I don't pass lightly over the Trail of Tears or My Lai.
Agreed. And attempts to justify them or pass them off as jokes are
repugnant.
AS> Is that as insulting to the MALE sex in your ears as it is to mine?
It isn't insulting to my masculinity; it's insulting to my humanity. As
if *anyone* needs to slap other people around to keep from going insane.
AS> As if we don't slap a few women around, we are prone to go totally
AS> crazy. As if he was confusing testerone with TNT.
This may apply to "standard issue" males. It doesn't apply to conscientious,
thoughtful, and caring men.
AS> That's why I had to say something. Modeming seems to draw extremes (I
AS> guess the moderates have better things to do then waste a lot of time
Hey! I'm one of the most moderate people I know. My extremes result in a
nice average.
... It's probably a bad day when you find a dead fish in your underwear.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Book replacement?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:49
EID:020e 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f72
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
It's extremely possible that I'll be spending some time in Atlanta this
summer. There's a wonderful bookstore there (Oxford Books) that sells
used books at remarkably low prices. If I do manage to go and have a
significant amount of cash (likely on both counts), is there anything
in particular that you'd like me to try to pick up? It's no problem at
all and as the owner of a somewhat large personal library, I understand
what a loss it is when it goes up in smoke, so to speak.
... They got the library at Alexandria. They're not getting mine.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:50
EID:a97e 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f74
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dawn Kleuser Angel Fundy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DK> Hey, it was just a question! Sheesh. I really wanted an honest
DK> answer. Whoever's spiritual beleifs or lack threof is their business.
A sensible stance.
DK> I am not here to "slam" ANYBODY. I would, however, like to know why
This cannot be said for everyone here, including myself. I see HOLYSMOKE
as something of an educational toy, with the frequent opportunity to
slam, mash, mangle, fold, spindle, and mutilate the opinions and personas
of people that I happen to strongly disagree with.
... I saved the life of the virgin sacrifice by disqualifying her.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:50
EID:87a6 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f75
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jerry Gilbreath Science vs. Faith wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> A close study will show that reality matches up with biblical
JG> accounts quite well. I am not sure what you mean by "science",
Then again, there's that flood story that just doesn't fit.
JG> but a lot of people mean "theories". You may be suprised to
JG> know that the "scientific" theory of evolution, for example has
JG> no support apart from more theories (no evidence). The Genesis
You're new here, aren't you? Allow me to explain the theory of evolution
as I see it:
Evolution, contrary to popular (and ignorant) belief, does *not* say that
animals make huge leaps in a short time. Thus, the example of "dogs to
starfish" and similar idiotic comparisons does not apply.
Evolutionary theory is a term that applies to two separate things. First,
it refers to the mechanisms by which scientists and other usually rational
people think evolution works (as evolution itself is already an established
fact--more on this later). Second, it refers to the extrapolation from
current data that if it happened now, it is possible that it happened in
the
past.
Now then, evolutionary theory in its first sense says something like this:
It is a fact that organisms overbreed (not every species has cable TV or
the Superbowl to keep them occupied). It is also a fact that the amount
of
resources (food, water, air, Valium, or other "needful things") is in
short supply. What then occurs is competition, both between and among
species, for those resources. Enter the famous line, "Nature red in tooth
and claw," because the wilderness is not a fun place.
But wait, that's not all. Thrown into the mix is the fact that there are
sufficient mutagenic agents (things like background radiation, microwaves,
Twinkies, toxic waste, and other mutation-causing goodies) present in the
environment (read Earth--since we haven't discovered life as we know it
anywhere else, this is where most of evolution as we know it takes place).
These mutagens cause a number of small mutations in individual examples
of
each species (if a large mutation [say, a third arm growing out of one's
chest or large purple horns growing into one's lungs] develops, then that
organism probably won't reproduce either through sheer inability [failure
to find a mate that would have that organism, or sterility, or not being
able to bear viable offspring] or through the fact that the mutation is
lethal and it dies a nasty and quick death). Now, add these factors
together to get the following synthesis:
We have a finite supply of resources, a lot of competition, and mutation.
Creatures that have developed (for one reason or another) a mutation that
permits them to compete more successfully than their fellow species-mates
or other species working for the same resource tend to reproduce more.
With more reproduction comes more examples with that successful mutation,
and eventually, barring total disaster (an ice age, a flood, or Roseanne
Arnold winning an Oscar), those organisms will dominate their species and
possibly all others in that particular area competing for that particular
resource. That's one way that natural selection works: an organism
develops and passes on a characteristic that promotes its survival in a
competetive environment.
Another way that natural selection works can be exemplified by the old
cockroaches/bug spray experiment, which is set up like so:
Imagine that you have a contained population of 20 cockroaches of both
sexes (this is unlikely since you can't ever have just 20 cockroaches
in one place and it's never totally sealed against the little bastards,
but bear in mind that this is just an example). Now, you decide to
introduce a factor that we'll call X because it's ominous sounding and
easy to spell. X can be anything--bug spray, roach powder, MSG, cocaine,
vending machine food or anything with the word "beverage" in its name--
that is lethal to the roaches (and possibly the experimenter, but that's
a different experiment and probably forbidden anyway). Now, if all of the
roaches die, then this experiment is at an end. But let's pretend that
some of the roaches (say about five, again with both sexes represented.
I
could say that it was two males and two females with one hermaphrodite
[that X is powerful stuff, no?], but that wouldn't be any fun. Just take
my word for it that both sexes are represented and I'll leave the exact
combination up to your own imagination) survived. For whatever reason
(they wore gas masks, were on diets, got regular exercise, were strong
in the Force, or something), those roaches survived and reproduced (again,
due to lack of cable TV or other things to pass the time with). Now, let's
hit the fast-forward button for a moment.
It's a later time. The original 5 are dead, but their progeny, all 150 of
'em (see what no cable TV can do for a population), are still in the
sealed environment. As our experimenter is a sadistic little man, he
leaves X as a constant in the environment. Of the 150 new roaches, we'll
say that 100 die this time--which is actually an improvement over the
original scenario as only 2/3rds of the roaches die instead of 3/4ths as
in the first generation. Eventually, as time goes on, the roaches that
are able to resist X will far outnumber those that can't resist X simply
because those that survived reproduced, and if the factor in their
survival was a genetic one (that is, able to be passed on to their
offspring), then that gene will become predominant in the population and
none of the ones that couldn't survive X will be left around because the
gene sequences that failed under the mighty environmental disaster that
is X all died out. This is natural selection.
That's the basics of evolutionary theory's mechanisms. That's all. No
vast mutations, no starfish turning into dogs, no sudden species changes,
nothing at all. This is not what the ICR and various other institutes that
are essentially devoid of evolutionary knowledge would have you believe,
but that's the truth. It's all about a bunch of short evolutionary steps
taken over one hell of a lot of time (think geological eras here), not
gigantic leaps taken overnight.
Now, as far as evolutionary theory applies to the way that we think it
happened in the past, it should be obvious: If it happens now (and it
does--the roach experiment can be done by anyone with a solid box, some
roaches, and a lot of Raid. Flu virii and penicillin-resistant strains
of pneumonia and other diseases also attest to the veracity of
evolution), then it is probable that it happened in the past. What this
means is that we're *not* descended from monkeys, again contrary to
popular but erroneous belief. Imagine instead that life as we know it
on this planet resembles a tree: At the roots, we have simple one-celled
organisms. There are a few trunks (land animals, amphibians, water-
dwellers, et cetera), and from those trunks there are a number of branches
(primates, pigs, birds, frogs, catfish, whales, etc.), and from those
branches there are still more branches (gorillas, humans, Poland Chinas,
hawks, eagles, spotted tree frogs, toads, salt-water catfish, fresh-water
catfish, humpback whales, blue whales, etc.). In a manner of speaking,
everything is related to everything else but only in the sense that all
organisms are on the same tree--they may be on branches that sprout from
different trunks and are thus almost entirely different. You won't see
sudden changes in species (dogs do not become starfish, no matter how
many dogs you throw into the ocean, and vice versa).
That's the sum of evolutionary theory, the best that I can explain it. It's
all fairly simple, all fairly logical, and there's a *lot* of evidence to
support it.
JG> account, however, has literally millions of tons of evidence
JG> (not just theories). I am referring to the hundreds of feet of
JG> sediment all over the world, even on mountain tops.
This argument doesn't apply in the face of things like plate tectonics
and what is loosely referred to as continental drift. At one point or
another *every* piece of land was underwater. This does not mean that it
was all underwater at the same time.
Further, the problem with a global flood of Biblical proportions is that
it requires a full two extra hydrospheres (total, that's three times the
water present on earth now in all forms--ice, underground, water vapor,
everything) of water to flood the entire earth to the height of just
over 29,000 feet. Furthermore, there are physical problems involved in
the delivery of such water (where did it come from? Where did it go?
Do you know how much heat would be released from the sheer impact of
that much rain? Do you know how much heat would be involved in making
that much water evaporate over that short a time? It's an astounding
number and the Bible doesn't speak of the Ark as having been burnt to
a crisp [temperatures in excess of 1800 degrees Centigrade will do that
to wood and living things] If it existed as water vapor, do you realize
what damage that would do [870 times normal atmospheric pressure is
a *lot* of pressure] to organisms and structures), not to mention problems
involved in the building of the Ark (larger than any wooden vessel ever
constructed--all done with low technology and only a handful of people),
its capacity (is 1.5 to 3.6 million cubic feet sufficent to hold two
of every species minimum, plus food and water for 190+ days, plus food
to be distributed until things could actually grow again on earth [tip:
plants don't survive well under 29,000 feet of water. Pressure and lack
of CO2 and light and all that.], plus special environments for all the
animals that needed them [think that freshwater fish could live in a
body of water that was essentially saline? Think again. Likewise for
temperature and food supply to aquatic creatures.], plus medical
facilities and a slew of other things), and assorted other problems
(how did the animals get to the Ark if the continents were separated?
How did the survivors keep the two lions from killing and eating the
two sheep [predator/prey ratios are usually about 1:400--the Ark
couldn't have sustained this ratio at all]? How did the surviving
humans have a large enough gene pool to keep the offspring from being
drooling, chinless idiots in a few generations of inbreeding? How
did this thing get recorded if only a few people survived and all other
civilization was wiped out?)
All of those problems don't even begin to touch the big one, which is
the simple fact that the dates given by the Bible and by modern archaeology
place the flood, if it happened at all, at circa 2250 BCE--which is 300
years after the Great Pyramid was built at Gizeh and a time when there
were plenty of record-keeping civilizations, none of whom spoke of a
massive, world-wide flood at that time. There are no artifacts and no
sites that show the scars that would be left by such an enormous flood.
Not a single one.
JG> I suppose that religion does start with the conclusion that
JG> there is a creator, but this is an obvious conclusion given the
JG> complexity of life. Nobody would excavate something as simple
Not really. Life is complex, but it is also alarmingly simple at times.
When I look at the world, I don't see evidence for a creator unless I'm
looking at an obviously artificial construct (like superhighways or an
ant mound).
JG> Anybody could see that it was created by an intelligent being.
JG> Any form of life is more complex than the computer you are using
JG> and infinitely more complex than a clay pot. How could it have
JG> happened by accident?
I'll ask a simple, honest, direct question: Who created God? If there
has to be a creator for everything, who built God? Who built *that*
creator? Who built *that* creator? I could go on, but it should be
fairly obvious by now that assuming that the chain of causality cannot
be infinite is rather a puerile statement in view of the fact that
what we know about the way things work is in most cases limited to what
we can observe on earth or in its immediate neighborhood and need not
necessarily apply to the billions of cubic lightyears that define the
universe as we know it.
... Noisy brute. Why don't we just go into light-speed? - C-3PO
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: TENNESSEE COMMAND
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:50
EID:b1df 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f76
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dan Ceppa TENNESSEE COMMAND wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AS> Oh, about the Tennessee "evolution is just a theory" law. They've
AS> taken out any provisions for criminal charges if evolution is taught
AS> as fact, so it amounts to a mild suggestion.
DC> Cowards! I'd like to see them actually put their asses on the
DC> line and back it up for a SC test.
It wouldn't make it to the SC. I'd bet money that it would go to the State
Supreme Court, no farther.
... AD&D Lesson #216 - Never insult an archmage
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: Pantheacon Stuff 1/4
|Date: 22 Mar 96 18:43:59
EID:3966 20769560
Re: Pantheacon Stuff 1/4:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Katherine Wintersnight,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KW> Oh, I alternate between MTP and BSW, with forays into Episcopaganism.
KW> My coven will not let me forget the ritual that literally blew up (so
KW> much for special effects).
NS> Pyrotechnics can be a blast . . .
KW> Tell me about it. At least I wasn't responsible for
KW> the seven foot penis stuffed with fireworks.
Do I need to ask if this was a working of some sort? }:)
NS> I remember one year there were a bunch of new seekers around, and
NS> the HPs had them all doing quarters during the ritual. In the
NS> middle, she waved her script (We all worked with scripts at that
NS> time) and it intersected a candle flame and started burning. I
NS> remember looking at those new people looking at her, and I swear I
NS> could read their minds: Are we _all_ supposed to sacrifice our
NS> scripts?
KW> We work with scripts from time to time. What I find funny
KW> is the guy with the elaborately calligraphied BOS trying to read by
KW> candlelight. Or the one in the long floppy sleeves setting his robe
KW> on fire (so much for the water on the altar).
Will the person closest to him please stamp the HP out . . .
I remember stopping ritual because one of the cars had started a grass
fire and we all had to rescue the chickens and ducks from the henhouse.
NS> I think my opinion as to the most fun ritual was the chocolate
NS> ritual someone came up with a few years ago. Yummy too. I think
NS> chocolate itself is sacrament, and wonder why no one's formed a
NS> religion around it yet. I, oddly, feel the same way about
NS> caffiene. };)
KW> I've done that chocolate ritual. Several people want me to do it if
KW> we do ever have a get together. Or strawberries at Beltain--with a
KW> good rum spiked chocolate fondue.
Yum. There's a Pagan here locally who always has lots of people at his
Winter rituals because he makes a great ritual drink called apple pie.
Pretty good alcohol content and very yummy. He won't part with the
recipe, though . . .
NS> I like the Monster Truck Pagans the most because they make their
NS> own beer. Anyone that does that is okay in my book.
KW> Well, I've only made beer twice, but I do brew my own mead.
I like people who do that too. Heh. I'm such a slut for homebrew . . .
... "Amazing what caffeine and no sense of self-preservation can do..."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: Vote for Rapture.
|Date: 22 Mar 96 18:51:08
EID:02e5 20769660
Re: Vote for Rapture.:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Katherine Wintersnight,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KW> I don't think that holysmoke would get too tepid. There would still
KW> be sweaty little teenyboppers looking for real copies of the 'Nec',
the
KW> endless arguments over the demideification of St. Gerald, and if all
KW> else fails, we can always argue over wether or not real true pagans
KW> can wear polyester robes.
NS> Yeah, and by that time we'll be ready for some real holy wars
NS> involving some of the local Deities. Another downside, though, is
NS> that it's supposed to be a time when the gates of Hell open up and
NS> everything inferno starts partying. I guess that means we get to
NS> see Assmotrin again . . . };)
KW> Ugh. He's in the xtian group, they can have him.
Poor Assmotrin, too big an idiot for the Athiests and Pagans, too big a
jerk for the Xtians. Maybe he can join the Shriners.
KW> I don't think that we'd lose National Inquirer, they'd just feature
a
KW> bad airbrushed photo of Jesus in the smoke over burning things.
KW> Speaking of such, did you see the article in the WWNews about the Pope
KW> hiring a couple of hit men to kill Satan?
NS> I haven't seen the story . . . the last one I saw was about
NS> Microsoft acquiring the Roman Catholic Church. Pretty funny. Hit
NS> men to kill Satan? But . . . but . . . I thought Satan was an
NS> Angel and thusly unable to die . . .
KW> Well, supposedly these two mafia hit men are dying of cancer. The
KW> pope offered them a contract to kill Satan, in return for which he will
KW> guarantee that they go to heaven. Wouldn't wiping out Satan mess up
KW> their holy prophesy?
You betcha, providing he could die. Let's see here . . . Satan dies,
and either goes to Heaven or Hell. If it's Heaven, then our beliefs
about him being a button guy for YHVH seem true. If Hell, he certainly
isn't going to rule there anymore. He'll be hip deep in the lake of
boiling blood (I think Dante ate too much pizza the night he came up
with this one, but its a great image, almost as good as the city of
Dis) yodeling his lungs out. Either way, with Satan dead, no more sin,
no more temptation. Without sin, no one has to go to Hell, so
J.J.Hitt, Dan Ceppa, yourself, me, Gwenny the Pooh (where has she been
recently, btw, does anyone know?), David Worrell, Styx Allum, etc., can
all go drinking in Heaven and taunt the heck out of Hardy, Brad, and
Jim. Then we'd probably hit a 7-11 for some munchies and head for the
Summerlands for some dashing through the foliage. It would be a good
time. I hope those guys succeed. }:)
... At least Democratic Presidents can remember HOW to have sex!!!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 22 Mar 96 18:54:22
EID:ae4a 207696c0
Re: A VISIT 4/4:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Katherine Wintersnight,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS> When do we come out with our catalog?
KW> As soon as we finish negotiating the cut that the CC and FOF get.
KW> Jimmy Swaggart wants a piece, too, but only if our daughters can watch.
NS> Jimmy's kinky enough, how about if we blindfold him and let him at
NS> Jim Baker? That way they BOTH get a piece and no one else is
NS> injured . . . It shouldn't matter an awful lot to them, and I
NS> bet we can get some decent calandar pictures out of it . . .
KW> That, and another calender collection of all the dirty pictures taken
KW> of 'famous women who've found Jesus'?
You know, I'd forgotten about that. Jessica Hahn (the only woman
_I've_ every heard of having TWO boob jobs) is pretty hot in my book,
but Tammy Fae? Ech. But there are lot's of others. I think a coffee
table book of racy nun bondage photos would be a hit too. (I have
always been the type to appreciate a good woman going bad. In fact, at
times, I've helped . . . )
... At first they burn books. Eventually they burn people.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: determinsm & co.A
|Date: 23 Mar 96 09:37:18
EID:613c 20774ca0
determinsm & co.:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Michael Hardy,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
MH> 1. It is God, singular. I don't have patience anymore for people who
MH> refer to "god(s)," (and sometimes without putting the s in
MH> parentheses.) I'm simply not going to waste my time with people who
MH> can't show a modicum of respect for a belief system. If you want to
MH> discuss it or argue about it, fine. If you want to mock it and its
MH> practitioners, leave me out of it.
NS> Excuse me for butting in here, but something confuses me about this
NS> exchange. Why do you consider a person who refers to gods or god(s)
NS> to be being disrespectful of your religion? Why do you consider it
NS> mocking? I don't see where it is mocking. I see an attempt by
NS> someone to not be disrespectful of anyone . . . he uses god(s) so that
NS> it covers everyone's belief system.
MH> Look at what John said:
JP> There is that damn determinism aspect to this too. If your
JP> god(s) are worthy of the title, they know the outcome of everything.
JP> Outside my apartment is a large, slick, icy patch. Your god(s)
JP> supposedly know if I will walk on it and slip on that patch, but I
JP> don't. To them, the outcome is already known, and I merely have the
MH> He uses the possessive pronoun "your." He's talking specifically
MH> about my beliefs; yet my belief is in God, not god(s). And in regard
MH> to those god(s), he uses the third-person plural throughout.
Ah, then, it wasn't clear to me from what was quoted. I thought the
two of you were discussing people who believed in multiple gods, I
didn't realize that he was talking specifically about your beliefs. I
assumed he was speaking about people who believed in god(s) in general,
and was using that form so as to not leave anyone out -- god(s) being
all inclusive of those who believe in one or more deities. As a matter
of fact, it still looks like he's being fair: I'm sure you're the first
person who'd agree that to people who don't believe as you do, the
concepts of the father, son, and holy ghost (not to mention Satan)
creates some confusion. But I also see how you were annoyed that he
referred to your deity in the multiple, though it does look to me as
though he was not trying to annoy, but rather was trying to cover all
his bases. I note that you've informed me that I may be misreading
this, and can accept that it may be a difference of opinion.
MH> If he was talking about religious belief in general, your argument
MH> would hold up. But he's not -- he's talking about mine in particular,
MH> and intentionally misrepresenting it. (Or else not understanding it.)
I would opt for option three: trying to come up with a term that would
apply to everyone (i.e., be all inclusive) but I admit not to have
enough evidence of his motivation to really tell for sure. My second
choice would be confusion, and your point would be my third choice,
just because it doesn't seem as reactionary as it should for him to be
insulting.
NS> The only thing it looks like to
NS> me is avoidance of the issue. I'm sure that's not what you want.
MH> And the fact that I then went on to answer all his points doesn't
MH> change that impression?
Now I don't know. I obviously got the conversation wrong, and it's too
early in the morning for me to reconstruct it again . . . };) My
impression is that I had nothing to disagree with in your opinion of
your beliefs on this point, from this new POV. I'm not even sure that
last sentence makes sense to me at the moment, but like I said, it's
very early. };)
MH> 4. The determinism aspect is a straw man. God knows the future
MH> because it happens, much the same way you know the ending of a novel
MH> you've already read -- you know how it ends, but your knowledge
MH> doesn't cause it to end that way. You know the ending because it
MH> exists.
NS> I find this a very interesting concept. It implies a God that is not
NS> all-powerful.
MH> In what way? How does God not knowing what doesn't happen make him
MH> less than all powerful?
In my opinion, an all powerful deity would know, and if they found it
disagreeable, would have the power to change it. BTW, I have problems
with your scansion there: "not knowing what doesn't happen" doesn't
make sense to me. Did you intentionally mean a double negative?
... Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: (2/2) YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 22 Mar 96 19:07:30
EID:d0b2 207698e0
(2/2) YOUR DAILY MURDER:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Al Schroeder,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
AS> If Moses was not instantly condemned for taking such actions, one
AS> has to wonder why God did not take such action, when He took action
AS> on much lesser things under Moses' guidance.
NS> This is an excellent point. Thanx for stating more eloquently than
I
NS> some of what I have been trying to say.
AS> No problem. I wonder if the act that supposedly kept him from getting
AS> to the Promised Land, which sounds pretty petty on the face of it, was
AS> just the capstone to a long list of failings of Moses. But that's just
AS> speculation.
Hmm . . . not my venue, actually, but it does bring up one of the bones
of contention, especially around here: the idea that some people could
have gotten away with stuff (like David did, repeatedly) without,
apparently, YHVH noticing it, when we are given to believe that there
is nothing that YHVH does not notice. I can understand people getting
sore at the seeming unfairness of it all.
... I this the land of free speech, herr comerade or what? -- Jim Staal
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: (1/2) YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 22 Mar 96 19:14:26
EID:c5c1 207699c0
(1/2) YOUR DAILY MURDER:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Al Schroeder,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
AS> The only way I could justify it is if the Midianites were routinely
AS> sacrificing children to Molech, and had been doing so for
AS> generations. But of course, there is no way for me to PROVE that, it
AS> never being stated explicitedly in the Bible, although it fits what
AS> we know of some of the cultures in the area.
NS> . . . and I would have to jump in momentarily and say, still respectful
NS> of your opinion Al, that there was still a problem of degree. _IF_
NS> some of the children were being fed to the flames of Moloch or
NS> whatever, it still doesn't justify killing all the children. So even
NS> if you make it conclusive as being understandable from a humanitarian
NS> pov, you still have the ethical problem of excessive murder. I tend
to
NS> think, and this is my opinion, that there was no justification for it.
NS> But then, you already knew that, right?
AS> Actually, this is one of those passages that trouble any thinking
AS> believer. I am offering guesses, but can't even specifically prove
AS> the Molech-sacrifice. Again, I can point out that MALE children when
AS> they grow are more of a danger than female ones (female warriors and
AS> the culture that sponsor them are few and far between) and might have
AS> grown into a force that would have dislodged the young Israel, and
AS> thus caused the Molech-worship to return. But it's nothing I can
AS> glibly go, OF COURSE they had to kill the others. It may be one of
AS> those things where Moses went far beyond what God wanted him to do
AS> (remember that God merely told them to take their vengeance on the
AS> Midianites, it was Moses who did the specifics.) But I don't know, and
AS> don't have enough information TO know.
I guess not having the info to know about is one reason some people get
so reactionary when you bring this up. Nobody wants to hear about
atrocities in their holy book(s), especially if there's not a glib
answer for them.
AS> Granted. But destroying all but the virgin girls of a people would
AS> be considered harsh at ANY time, and by ANY people, including the
AS> ancient Egyptians among which Moses was reared. Yes, there were
AS> attocities by Thutmose and others, but there are also passages
AS> praising mercy.
NS> Excellent point.
AS> One of the reasons Martin Gardner, himself a creedless philosophical
AS> theist, could not accept the Bible were passages like that. But then,
AS> you have to look at something else. One way or the other, a Creator
is
AS> responsible for everything that happens in an ultimate sense. Every
AS> death, including that caused by Jeff Dalmer and Ted Bundy and Charles
AS> Manson, happened because God withheld His direct intervention, and
AS> because they were allowed to exist in the first place.
True. And Robert Schulman (Have I got the name right) wrote his book
When Bad Things Happen To Good People concerning this very sort of
thing. His conclusion that perhaps the God of the Jews and Christians
was not all-powerful was something I found at one and the same time
very realistic and very touching. To make a Deity slightly more human
is to open them up and accept them more readily, I feel. Its the
all-powerful thunderer that allows things to go bad that we feel
umbrage at. Does this mean that you don't hold as much store in
Satan's supposed scheme in things? For Satan would have to be a
creation of YHVH's, the ultimate bad guy . . .
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 22 Mar 96 19:22:44
EID:7dfd 20769ac0
RE: AL SCHROEDER:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Al Schroeder,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS> Even the Fantastic Four are representative of the four elementals:
NS> --------------------------------------------------------------
NS> Sue Storm Invisibility, force fields Air
NS> Reed Richards Stretching/flowing Water
NS> Johnny Storm Flame ability/living flame Fire
NS> Ben Grimm Organic stone being Earth
DC> Interesting... Never looked at them in that way.
NS> Its like Marvel was always Pagan just under the surface, whereas DC
NS> didn't try any of that until the seventies, etc. If it wasn't for
NS> their central god-figure (Kal-El himself) I probably would never have
NS> stayed with them at all. If I took the time, I could find all kinds
of
NS> simularities between the Church and Superman's Mythos, I'm sure.
AS> Look more at Jewish symbolism, since Siegal and Shuster were Jewish.
AS> Kal-El's being found by foster parents in the rocket, Moses being
AS> found by Pharoah's daughter in the bullrushes. "El" of course is
AS> Hebrew for God, as in MichaEL and RaphaEL and AzraEL, which was
AS> Superman's family name. (However, DC was the first to do a pantheon,
AS> since they were the first to do a super-team, in the Justice Society.
AS> And the Justice League, their successor, moved from a mountain
AS> sanctuary to a satellite sanctuary far above others...just as Mt.
AS> Olympus was originally thought to be on top of the literal mountain,
AS> but later mythographers said it was removed from earth entirely. And
AS> of course, the Flash was directly inspired by Mercury (the Golden Age
AS> version even had the same sort of hat) and Wonder Woman was directly
AS> inspired by speculations of the White Goddess Robert Graves talked
AS> about.
Thanx for the clarification of the Kal-El legacy. I knew it inside,
but hadn't put it into words. Ooops, forgot about the `Pagan' DC
heroes, probably because DC was more low-key about them. Wonder
Woman's name of Diana is the give-away, of course. And now that I can
look at it again, I can see a few others. Aquaman as Poseidon, Mon-El
as another member of the El family (or perhaps Archangel Michael?), the
Phantom Stranger as the Man in Black (a Wiccan figure), Green Arrow as
Robin Hood/the soul of the Greenwood, etc.
NS> That just made me wonder about something . . . they never teamed Thor
NS> and Conan up, did they? That would have been a good one. Heck, you
NS> could even have Thor meet Cromm . . . but not that Thor wannabee they
NC> replaced Thor with recently. Yech.
AS> Eric Masterman? Thunderstrike? He died.
I think so. Blond guy with a beard? If so, that was him. He died?
What happened? I stopped buying comic books when they became $1
apiece, and stopped reading them when it got too painful not to buy
them, so I haven't stayed in touch.
... Elvis isn't dead, he's just pining for the fjords.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler tapdance lookalike
|Date: 22 Mar 96 19:24:35
EID:8464 20769b00
Adolph Hitler tapdance lookalike:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Sean McCullough,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
> SM> Stercum minimum!!
> I couldn't have said it better myself, really. I couldn't. I don't
> even know what it means, at least, I don't know what stercum is.
SM> "Stercum" is the accusative case for the term "stercus". Latin is an
SM> inflected language, which means that the ending on a word tells you
SM> how it is to be used in a sentence.
> I know that stercus means dung, and minimum means littlest, but would
> have no clue as to why you would say tiny shit concerning Barbara
> Eden, etc. Ergo, I assume I'm missing something. };)
SM> You are indeed missing something: the fact that Latin has no direct
SM> translations for "yes" and "no".
SM> The terms "maxime" and "minime" are used for each, respectively.
SM> Hence, "stercum minimum" means "No shit!" :-)
Ah, thanx. My latin is very poor, if not nonexistant. I thought it
meant little shit, and could make no heads nor tails of it. Thanx for
the clarification. };)
... Ecce illa mammeata. (Fun Latin phrases for the beach.)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 22 Mar 96 19:27:41
EID:d926 20769b60
Re: Claims of deity construct:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Martin Goldberg,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS> That's why I still refer to it as a thoery . . . };) I wonder .
NS> . . has anyone ever done a correlation between a theory and
NS> a myth? It would seem that they were very similar sorts of
NS> things, one to explain scientifically, one to explain
NS> mystically, things that can't be or haven't been proven.
MG> The difference between theory and myth is that theory is something
MG> that actually becomes law after the data is gathered or it is rejected
MG> and enters the category of myth. We talk about the Theory of
MG> Evolution. It is not really a theory, only the mechanism is. It is
a
MG> natural law. Like the Law of Gravity.
Hmmm . . . thanx for the input.
MG>> Mkaes no difference ansyway. This one's got a lump of lead
MG>> between his ears. Almost as thick has his well thumped
MG>> bible.
NS> Oh yeah? Must be pandemic. I note the same heavy brow in the
NS> people I'm interacting with as well. };)
MG> The theists here run the gamut of fundamentalist book burner to
MG> reasonable deist who just wnts to live a decent life. Wht amuses me
MG> is fanatacism. On both sides of the coin.
I note that. Heh. Room enough for everyone's opinions around here, I
guess!
... "Ahhh, AHHHH, I am Cornholio, aaaa aaa aaaahhhh AHHHHHH!" -- Beavis
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: determinsm & co.B
|Date: 23 Mar 96 09:36:01
EID:607c 20774c80
MH> That's kind of like saying that a biologist doesn't know the
MH> anatomy of all animals unless it includes dragons, orcs and
MH> hobbits.
Not at all, at least to me. And I think you're misunderstanding what I
said. Consider the novel analogy. If someone reads a novel, and its a
good one, then one begins to identify with the characters involved.
Upon first completion of it, if it ended less than well (and most modern
novels are very realistic in their portrayal of real life) then wouldn't
the temptation be, when going back to reread it, to rewrite it into a
much more favorable form? Using that analogy, I was supposing an
all-powerful Deity could rewrite the bad parts out of the novel of a
person's life, if they liked the character and felt he got a bad deal
and knew what was going to happen. The idea that a Deity _can't_ do
that, then, means that the Deity is not all powerful, given the analogy.
Am I making sense?
MH> My understanding -- and it is simply my opinion, subject to change if
MH> someone offers me a better argument -- is that God gives us free will
MH> so that we may do what he choose. He desires us to do certain things,
MH> and many things we might choose are sins against Him, but he finds
MH> our free choice preferable to force or mind-control. But since God is
MH> eternal, all of time is "now" to Him. It's like looking at the United
MH> States from 1,000 miles up. With a good telescope, you can see what's
MH> going on in Virginia and what's happening in Kansas at the same time.
MH> But the mere fact that you can observe those things doesn't mean your
MH> observation in any way causes them. The people you're watching are
MH> making their own choices.
Firstly, doesn't this seem a lot like Calvinism? Secondly, given the
argument of yours about free will, which I don't necessarily discount,
there are other actions that a deity could do that would ensure
sufficient communication YET not deprive a person of free will. YHVH
could appear to people . . . an all-powerful YHVH could appear to
everyone simultaneously. Then everyone would know, but still have the
free will to choose what they wished to do. And that would jump right
over the problem of having him appear to a prophet who then tells about
him, because there is no one definable mark that can be used to tell if
a prophet is true or false by everyone, a mark that is objective (not
subjective) and not open to interpretation. That YHVH doesn't do so,
or something of the like, gives some of us one of the following
impressions:
1. YHVH doesn't exist, nor the rest of the mythos of YHVH.
2. YHVH doesn't care.
3. YHVH cannot physically, etc., do it, thereby making YHVH NOT
all-powerful
MH> John's objection has to do with time rather than space, but it's
MH> really the same thing. Yes, God knows whether John will offer a
MH> deathbad repentance -- but only because, when the time comes, John
MH> either will or won't. God's knowledge doesn't influence the decision.
MH> Now it may be there are some problems with this viewpoint, and I'm
MH> not saying this is the way it must be. It's my opinion, nothing more.
Hmmm . . . I'll need to think about this . . . it seems a touch vague
in various places, but who knows? }:)
> Ä Area: National Religious Debate Echo ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
> Msg#: 77 Date: 07 Mar 96 23:01:00
> From: Michael Hardy Read: Yes Replied: No
> To: All Mark:
> Subj: drool game
> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
> Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin. So I'm
> going to liven it up with a little game.
>
> I've finally set up a twit filter, something I resisted for two years
> because I tried to believe that anyone could have something
> worthwhile to say once in a while. But as my patience began to wear, I
> decided I'd rather spend one hour a night having interesting exchanges
> than three hours a night wading through drool to get the occasional
> worthwhile questions. And I observed that the bulk of the drool was
> coming consistently from the same few people.
>
> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David Worrell.
>
> The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of
> non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my
> way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at least
> one month, possibly longer.
>
> No clues, though. The person in question was picked at random, with all
> names in the running except for Boni Hitch and Pam Gray, who don't seem
> to be in the loop. Could be anyone, other than them or the charter
> twits.
>
> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and win
> $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at least
> 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
> Go to it, twits!
>
> ... If I ran the world, things would be a lot better. Well, for me anyway.
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
> -!- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
> ! Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
... Iolach Esus!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Hitler
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:14:52
EID:988d 207759c0
Hitler:
1% Michael Hardy, 10% David Worrell,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
MB>> Or, as an alternative, maybe Jehovah's in Hell, paying for what
MB>> he did to the Midianites.
MB>> Or, another possibility is that old Do-As-I-Say-And-Not-As-I-So
MB>> Jehovah has forgiven himself, but does not see fit to forgive
MB>> mere mortals for doing the same thing.
MH> Or maybe Jehovah, as creator and judge of all mankind, has the right
MH> to destroy people who sacrifice their own children to false gods.
DW> You are forgetting that Jehovah didn't destroy the Midianites. He had
DW> to have the Israelites help him, remember?
DW> Regardless, got any evidence that the Midianites were "sacrafic[ing]
DW> their own children to false Gods"? Or do you jsut have the testimony
DW> of the people who destroyed them?
DW> Would someone forward this to Mikey, please? Thanks.
Not to mention that if YHVH had destroyed the Midianites for
sacrificing their own children, why were there children still to kill?
If only some of the children were sacrificed and YHVH had the rest killed,
the YHVH is no better than the Midianites, right? If Moses killed them
without YHVH's orders, than Moses is the same as the Midianites, and
all the women and children of the Jews need to be slaughtered as well.
He'll ignore this, but just in case, please excuse my drool . . .
> Ä Area: National Religious Debate Echo ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
> Msg#: 77 Date: 07 Mar 96 23:01:00
> From: Michael Hardy Read: Yes Replied: No
> To: All Mark:
> Subj: drool game
> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
> Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin. So I'm
> going to liven it up with a little game.
>
> I've finally set up a twit filter, something I resisted for two years
> because I tried to believe that anyone could have something
> worthwhile to say once in a while. But as my patience began to wear, I
> decided I'd rather spend one hour a night having interesting exchanges
> than three hours a night wading through drool to get the occasional
> worthwhile questions. And I observed that the bulk of the drool was
> coming consistently from the same few people.
>
> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David Worrell.
>
> The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of
> non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my
> way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at least
> one month, possibly longer.
>
> No clues, though. The person in question was picked at random, with all
> names in the running except for Boni Hitch and Pam Gray, who don't seem
> to be in the loop. Could be anyone, other than them or the charter
> twits.
>
> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and win
> $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at least
> 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
>
> Go to it, twits!
>
> ... If I ran the world, things would be a lot better. Well, for me anyway.
>
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
>
> -!- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
> ! Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
... 1Samuel 15:3: Saul kills Amalekites, including women & suckling babes.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:22:55
EID:afe8 20775ac0
Re: The end?:
1% Alan Hess, 10% Selena Kerr,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
AH> Yes, it is. Millions of years down the road, the expanding sun will
AH> engulf the earth. If man hasn't polluted himself to death by then,
AH> he'll have a major problem air-conditioning the planet.
SK> That is not quite what I meant when I said "inevitable". I meant that
SK> it will probably happen seeing as Nostradamus predicted things like
SK> Hitler, the JFK assasination, Napoleon, the Gulf War.... so what he
is
SK> saying is probaby gong to happen.
Nostradamous did not predict Hitler, he predicted Hister. We're still
waiting for Hister. Until then, don't worry.
... "And to my cat Mittens I leave my entire, vast...BOOT TO THE HEAD!!"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: SATAN RUNS
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:24:22
EID:804d 20775b00
SATAN RUNS:
1% Judith Bandsma, 10% Preston Simpson,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Judith Bandsma SATAN RUNS wgah'nagl fhtagn.
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Brad Jackson <=-
PS> who here is Satan's employee? What kind of salary does he pay? What
PS> kind of perks?
JB> I must be. My latest Discover card statement says that my rebate owed
JB> me is $6.66.
PS> Lucky you. Us poor impovershed university students have to get by
PS> doing Satan's work for free, I guess.
You do Satan's work for free? Sucker! _I_ get minimum wage and a
semi-decent HMO . . . };)
... "A king, eh? Well, I didn't vote for you..."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 23 Mar 96 11:28:01
EID:9194 20775b80
stereotype (Sony):
1% Michael Hardy, 10% David Worrell,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
MH> satisfaction. If an atheist wants to be giving and generous, there's
MH> no reason he can't. But if he wants to be selfish and dishonest,
MH> there's no reason he shouldn't. You may disagree with his decisions,
MH> but there is no higher standard to judge him by.
DW> Is God good because he chooses to be good, or is he good because he
is
DW> incapable of evil?
DW> Would someone forward this to Mikey please? Thanks.
YHVH incapable of evil? Heh. Note the tagline, after the inevitable
drool . . .
< Ä Area: National Religious Debate Echo ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
< Msg#: 77 Date: 07 Mar 96 23:01:00
< From: Michael Hardy Read: Yes Replied: No
< To: All Mark:
< Subj: drool game
< ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
< Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin. So I'm
< going to liven it up with a little game.
<
< I've finally set up a twit filter, something I resisted for two years
< because I tried to believe that anyone could have something
< worthwhile to say once in a while. But as my patience began to wear, I
< decided I'd rather spend one hour a night having interesting exchanges
< than three hours a night wading through drool to get the occasional
< worthwhile questions. And I observed that the bulk of the drool was
< coming consistently from the same few people.
<
< The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
< David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David Worrell.
<
< The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of
< non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my
< way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at least
< one month, possibly longer.
<
< No clues, though. The person in question was picked at random, with all
< names in the running except for Boni Hitch and Pam Gray, who don't seem
< to be in the loop. Could be anyone, other than them or the charter
< twits.
<
< This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and win
< $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at least
< 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
<
< Go to it, twits!
<
< ... If I ran the world, things would be a lot better. Well, for me anyway.
<
< ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
<
< -!- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
< ! Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
... Exodus 32:14: YHVH does evil.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 24 Mar 96 14:48:03
EID:6aba 20787600
1 god plus 1 god plus:
1% Jim Germiquet, 10% Lynda Bustilloz,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Well obviously Jesus and God are real because there are MILLIONS of
JG> people who believe in them and act upon those beliefs.
LB> PRECISELY the same could be said about Santa Claus and Rudolf.
JG> Under your defintion, you must live a very empty life, because since
LB> Are you TRYING to use every cliche in the FAQ, or does this come
LB> naturally to you?
You honestly need to ask? };)
... All you are is a bunch of lazy lunitcs! -- David Napoli (Jim Staal?)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Debate/Logic/Education
|Date: 24 Mar 96 15:04:46
EID:4eec 20787880
Debate/Logic/Education:
1% Preston Simpson, 10% Marilyn Burge,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Norbert Sykes Debate/Logic/Education wgah'nagl
PS> fhtagn.
NS> I use as my sources for understanding logic the FAQ from this echo,
NS> to a certain extent, and a small book that I've had for a couple of
NS> years called Elementary Logic, by Willard Van Orman Quine. But I know
NS> that this isn't enough.
PS> In my case, I got by on less. I've been on HOLYSMOKE for over a year,
PS> more like two--and my education on logic and the procedures used in
PS> debate all came from this conference.
MB> Now for a moment of egotism. I'm the one who originally posted
MB> those rules of argumentation. They've sure gotten the mileage
MB> since. Probably the only real positive contribution I've made
MB> to this newsgroup in the years I've posted here.
Well for the record, I appreciate them, a lot. NOTE: if anyone doesn't
already know so, the feed is getting messed up somehow between certain
people and myself. This is the only post I've seen in response to my
original post, so if any of you sent me suggestions and didn't get a
reply, rest assured its because I didn't see them. Staal took them
with him or they're in the same limbo as Assmotrin.
BTW, went through my bookshelf and found another good book: Logic and
Contemporary Rhetoric, The Use of Reason in Everyday Life, by Howard
Kahane, ISBN 0-534-03188-9. Excellent text, funny, easy to read, very
understandable.
Believe me, its tempting to make this echo my only source for learning,
but as I argue more and more effectively in other areas (I have a
doozie right now in a Pagan echo) I find that I need to be able to cite
other sources as well. Besides, one can't learn too much, can one?
};) I mean, my brain won't explode all over the monitor suddenly one
night and
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: HELLO!
|Date: 25 Mar 96 02:32:12
EID:c770 20791400
HELLO!:
1% Kenneth Mcabee, 10% Dan Ceppa,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
BJ> How do you explain the other gods mentioned in that Bible of yours?
KM> Ok, give me a passage.
DC>
DC> Nice of you to ask. Knock yourself out.
DC> From: Norbert Sykes
DC> Oh really? Let's look at some of the Gods mentioned in the Bible:
Hot dog! At last, I'm a source! BTW, just wanted to correct a
typo on the original. I had posted:
DC> Baalim I Kings 18:18 Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a
DC> collective of the different
DC> aspects of Baa.
. . . please go in and add an `l' to the end of Baa there, making it
Baal. I don't know how the `l' got left off, must have been typing it
at two in the morning again! Thanx.
... Famous Gods of the Bible #27! (Deu 13:13) Belial (Hebrew Underworld).
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Seed
|Date: 25 Mar 96 03:04:27
EID:709d 20791880
Seed:
1% All, 10% Jim Germiquet,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Well I lost all my message replies <50+) due to a bad cluster. I am
JG> now accessing this base from a different bbs. Hope to be able to get
JG> back into the swing of things. If you didn't recieve a reply, it was
JG> because of the lost message packet :(
I bet. There's a subtext here, isn't there? };)
... Romans 1:29-32: Those who deceive are "worthy of death".
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: Holysmoke faq /001
|Date: 25 Mar 96 03:12:49
EID:8f55 20791980
Holysmoke faq /001:
1% Sean Mccullough, 10% Kevin D. Mckenzie,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KDM> SEAN MCCULLOUGH spoke thusly to ALL :
SM> Header
SM> The HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List
SM> Created by David Rice
SM> Current Author: Sean McCullough (Editor-in-Chief)
SM> Authors/Editors: Various Heathens in Network 1:128
SM>
SM> Revised 15 Jan 11996 - Revision 666.025 by Coridon
SM> Revised 1Henshaw 6 March 1996 -- Revision 6.02 *
SM> 1.0E+23 (First
KDM> Thank you very much, Sean, but a request . . . could you make the size
KDM> a bit longer? This thing was split into 40+ posts.
If he makes it much longer, it may not be accommidated by some BBSes.
Maximus, for instance, will only accept posts of 99 lines or so, or at
least the BBS I'm at has that restriction.
... First Law of Smith Work: Hot iron looks just like cold iron.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Re: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 25 Mar 96 07:53:53
EID:34b7 20793ea0
YOUR DAILY MURDER:
1% Jim Germiquet, 10% Sean McCullough,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
> And then of course they take away the ability for men to defend
> themselves which used to be physical. SO now in order to stop the
> mental abuse of a womans bitching and nagging and put downs, men
> can no longer give her a backhand across the mouth. So he has to
> take the mental abuse until it drives him crazy enough to get a gun
> and blow away the next 12 or 15 women he sees on the street before
> putting the gun to his own head to get away from the monstrous
> injustice of a society that only cares now about the rights of the
> women while not providing support and education in dealing with
> these issues to the men on an equal basis that it is supplied to
> the women of this society .
SM> I'm transferring selected excerpts from this message to the FAQ, Jim.
SM> But first, I'm cutting out selected LIES like this one:
> Now before you get your back up, I am not saying this is "right" I agree
> it is a "sick" thing to do and that you cannot "justify" it.
SM> What the immediately previous paragraph was: nothing else BUT an
SM> attempt to JUSTIFY such violence.
SM> I am going to include the paragraph alone, therefore, so that anyone
SM> reading the FAQ thereafter will know what kind of "man" you really
SM> are.
Bravo! <<>> But aren't you assuming manhood where none has
been established? };)
BTW, did you get the bit about justifying the killing/enslavement/rape
of the women and children by the Jews under Moses? I would think that
bit would fit right in with this one too.
... I just don't think, that was all there was to it. -- Jim Germiquet
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 25 Mar 96 08:09:19
EID:2e78 20794120
Constitution of FSU:
1% Rob Burcham, 10% Martin Goldberg,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
RB> The animosity we held for the Soviet Union should have
RB> been directed at it's oppressive government and not it's
RB> citizens.
MG> There has been an influx of Russian scientists here at the medical
MG> school. One works in our lab. Due tot he near fanatical anti russian
MG> bigotry of my boss (he took her on as a favor to another facutly
MG> member) she has remained pushed down tot he level of a brain dead
MG> street sweeoer. She has over 20 yers experience in molecualr biology.
MG> Her English is much better. She has produced a huge amount of work.
MG> The same is true everywhere. I have met Russian engineers, teachers
MG> and other professionals doing things like bagging groceries. To
MG> believe that the people of Russia are out to get us is nonsense. It's
MG> just antoher excuse to hate those a bit different from yourself.
FYI, I happen to agree whole heartedly with your appraisal here.
Sacramento, as a world port, has a huge population of Slavic
immigrants. They're wonderful people, and I have no problem with my
children mixing with them in school. And they have the best cooking,
too! For a people so heavily downtrodden over the course of the last
thousand years or so, they're pretty cool. Just my opinion.
... D‚j… Stew: leftovers
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: woids
|Date: 25 Mar 96 18:57:22
EID:ca27 20799720
woids:
1% Michael Hardy, 10% Martin Goldberg,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS>> You did, you just didn't give a total overview. You gave
NS>> one word, and none of the others, from what I remember of
NS>> your post.
MH> It should have been enough. It established that the collective
MH> Hebrew noun "owph" does not mean exactly the same thing as the
MH> word "bird" does in English.
MG> After growing tired of taking your word for this, I purchased a
MG> Hebrew-English dictionary. If you look up the word "bird" it gives
MG> several definitions, all in hebrew. the second one is spelled
MG> "ayin-kopf" Ayin is a silent letter. Following it is the sign for
MG> the short "o" sound in English. The last letter is the sound for "f".
MG> This dictionary defines the word you describe as "bird".
MG> This, btw, is The New Bantam-Megiddo Hebrew & English Dictionary.
MG> Bantam Books, 1973. page 33. I have no ISBN number as it does not
MG> appear int he volume.
I don't doubt you on this. However, you're missing a point or two.
Firstly, according to an on-line bible program I have which checks
each word against Strong's, the word in this particular passage was
`owph, which is pretty much what Michael said. `Owph translates out to
mean several things, including FLYING CREATURES. I did a check to see
what words for bird and bat were used in the Bible, and came up with
the following list, which I uploaded on March 7th. The definition of
your word looks remarkably like `ayit, but that wasn't the word used in
that passage on the on-line bible. You are not translating the word
used in the passage being argued about is my belief.
Quoting Rick Mcfarlane to David Worrell <=-
Given the fact that the language that the Bible was written in made
no
distinction between bats and birds (a fact noted in my previous post,
but carefully Hectorized out of the part you quoted back), only a moron
A common tactic when trying to take something out of context or twist
it to mean something it wasn't intended to. Or if it shows the error
of logic in their own replies.
`atalleph [Hebrew] {at-al-lafe'}
< bat or bats.
<-------------------------------------------------------------------
tsippowr [Hebrew] {tsip-pore'}
`owph [Hebrew] {ofe}
< flying creatures, including insects,
< birds, and bats.
< --------------------------------------------------------
< `ayit [Hebrew] {ah'-yit}
< bird of prey.
< --------------------------------------------------------
< orneon [Hebrew] {or'-neh-on}
< bird or fowl.
< --------------------------------------------------------
< ts@phar [Aramaic] {tsef-ar'}
< fowl, bird, or like-birds.
< --------------------------------------------------------
< peteinon [Greek]
< flying or winged animals.
< --------------------------------------------------------
< ptenon [Greek]
< of winged animals.
< --------------------------------------------------------
< /\ ba`al [Hebrew] {bah'al}
< | | owner, husband, adversary, master,
< | with | archers, babbler, mangiven, have, bird,
< | | confederate, and captain.
< \/ kanaph [Hebrew] {kaw-nawf'}
< wing, skirt, borders, corners,ends,
< feathered, sort, and winged.
< Essentially: ba`al-kanaph (winged babbler, aka bird.)
<-------------------------------------------------------------------
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Re: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 25 Mar 96 19:10:48
EID:34b7 20799940
YOUR DAILY MURDER:
1% Al Schroeder, 10% Sean McCullough,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
> JG> And then of course they take away the ability for men to defend
> JG> themselves which used to be physical. SO now in order to stop
> JG> the mental abuse of a womans bitching and nagging and put downs,
> JG> men can no longer give her a backhand across the mouth. So he
> JG> has to take the mental abuse until it
> Jim.
> I would no more strike my wife than fly to the moon, no matter how
> much we argue.
> I think it is the mark of a COWARD and a BULLY to even suggest it.
> "A backhand across the mouth". Do you REALLY think that way. Or is
> your tongue in your cheek, as it was the OTHER time?
SM> This little miscreant is headed at highspeed to being the LEAST
SM> pleasant HolySmoker to be immortalized in the FAQ.
> It doesn't matter. Someone who uses such an idea, even in jest, is
> a little sick, and I feel sorry for the woman in your life.
SM> This brings up an old question, Al.
I'm not Al, but I hope you don't mind me interjecting some ideas here.
SM> How in the FUCK does a man like this GET a woman in his life, when
SM> there are quite gentle and ethical men out there who would happily be
SM> where the assholes are!!??!!?
Women of a certain age are attracted to bad boys, to dangeorus young
man (like Byron was reported to be, for instance), etc. I see it all
the time. I've even seen fully grown and married women in their
fourties throw good husbands away to run off with daring and dangerous
younger men.
SM> You have any insight on this one??
SM> Why didn't Judith, for example, meet Leo Bandsma BEFORE she married
SM> the arch-asshole who beat her??
Because she was really young?
SM> Why is David Rice -- one of the most gentle and ethical men alive --
SM> still a virgin??
Because women can be just as shallow as men in their dealings with the
opposite sex? Mind you, I don't say all women, but . . . there's
certainly a high enough percentage of the flighty ones, male and female
to make a case for a lack of maturity being the cause.
SM> And WHY -- in the name of Wotan, WHY!! -- do men with the beater
SM> disease EVER succeed in attracting ANYONE??!!?
Because they're exciting and dangerous. Let me suggest a book to read,
though I don't know if I dare suggest you or anyone else buy it. See
if you can get it on an inter-library loan: it has some interesting
things to say about this sort of thing. It's called How To Be The Jerk
Women Love, by F. J. Shark, ISBN 0-9640109-0-9. Its a bit
misogynistic, but interesting none the less.
Mind you, I love women, and I love my wife. But we all, men and women,
have been victimized at one time or another by immature people we
wanted as partners. It happens. If we're lucky, it only happens a
time or two, and we move on. But each of us has our hearts broken by
this sort of thing as surely as death itself.
... By thought, I embrace the universal. -- Blaise Pascal
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Re: ZOG
|Date: 25 Mar 96 19:14:41
EID:5385 207999c0
ZOG:
1% All, 10% Mark Craig,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
MC> I'm beginning to believe that Pat Robertson and his Christian
MC> Coalition, are a Zionist front organization.
You've obviously mistaken me for someone that gives a fuck.
... Mark, walking the Devil's dog and carrying his groceries.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: The Stratum Found!
|Date: 27 Mar 96 14:35:30
EID:4d9f 207b7460
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31598a60
Yo, Marty--
Here is a little something you might enjoy. Whilst you
were gone, I posted my flood stratum file to a newbie with
the following result:
DM> Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
DM> evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
DM> tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic particles
DM> or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the existence of
DM> enormous gravitational forces only explicable by the presence of
DM> a black hole.
MB> Well I can agree on that and thank you for this post I told a Preacher
MB> freind of mine about this to night at his church and he said that our
MB> argument was for nought that the stratum had been found but that the
MB> non-belivers had hid the evidence so as not to prove
MB> the Bible.
OK, you guys with the picks and shovels--let's get busy
hiding that stratum! Keep working at it until Leipzig says
he can't tell the difference!
I asked the newbie directly, and he assures me that the
preacher's name was NOT Stringfellow.
Strange. I could have sworn . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Bill Burns
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Hate the Sin, Love the Si
|Date: 26 Mar 96 9:39:15
EID:055d 207a4ce0
MSGID: 1:280/26 7a0a4cec
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
-> >a> Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more accura
-> >a> the Christian dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rat
-> >a> and rational response to a very real threat? [Kelsey Bja
->
->
-> > Holysmoke-style fundamentalism at its best!!
->
->
-> BZZZT. You lose. No seegar.
->
-> ONLY deity-believers can be fundamentalists. Specifically, deity
-> believers whose religion is based on some old book of fairy-tales or
-> other, such as the Bible or the Quraan.
->
-> And Kelsey was telling the truth here. By embracing Biblical
Blah, Blah, Blah.....
Ok, little fundy/smoker....have a seegar.
Smokin' one for you,
Rev. Willie
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Better then This!
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:31:49
EID:4c89 207aabe0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144a0ec4
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 227 days
BJ> If you can think of anything to say, anything at all I will be here
BJ> helping others that want help.
None of the delusion-free heathens want or need help, Brad.
In fact, we're of the opinion that YOU'RE the one who needs
help.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aspirin: Having great ambitions
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:31:49
EID:6474 207aabe0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144a0ec5
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 227 days
DM> The interesting part (speculation) is that some are
DM> masculine and some feminine. Obviously the single, thrusting
DM> member, whether middle finger or forearm (Italy and
DM> elsewhere) is male, and seems to say "I rape you." Boys will
DM> be boys, and dominance by penis is an old story.
And don't forget the preferred gesture of Upper Mongolia:
The elbow of the folded right arm is thrust into the circle
made by the index finger and thumb of the left hand, meaning
"I fuck you with my elbow."
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Astronomer: A night watchman
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:31:50
EID:b1df 207aabe0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144a0ec6
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 227 days
AS> I love meat. I am intellectually honest about it, Marilyn. I just
don't
AS> think the hierarchy ends with Man, and would be very surprised if
it did.
AS> Nothing is more depressing than to think MAN is the crown of creation.
Does 'the most advanced intellect' equal 'the crown of creation'?
When you compare an industrialized human's life with a dolphin's
for instance, is the quality of the human's life better? We can
barely imagine the freedom a dolphin has (assuming it can evade
the tuna nets).
Remember the scene from 'Altered States' when William Hurt
metamorphosed into the 'caveman'? He said he was terrified
but he was living in the 'now' and had never felt so 'alive'.
Fiction, I know, but an interesting premise.
AS> And just like you eat meat because you think you are higher in the
AS> hierarchy than what you are eating, so too, I think God can sometimes
AS> commit acts that would be henious for US (i.e., allow death) which
is
AS> permitted, ethically, for Him. Only if I felt HE was on the same level
AS> as US would there be the hypocrisy you speak about, concerning God.
But
AS> there is no such common ground between Him and us.
Then, we shouldn't concern ourselves about ethical treatment
of animals, since we're on a 'higher' level?
AS> You flatter me if you think I INVENTED the "invisible hierarchy."
It has
AS> been around much longer than I have. I just feel it very anthromorphic
to
AS> assume that WE are the crown of creation.
Of course we're not the crown of creation. The Zelphods of
planet Zelpha and the Gorbeons of Lergon BOTH make us look
like dung beetles.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aspirin: Having great ambitions
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: NOTICES
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:31:50
EID:4176 207aabe0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144a0ec7
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 227 days
From a message to Don Martin:
AS> BTW, saw your picture at Ryan Shaw's unofficial web site. I think
AS> you're probably the most distinguished looking of the pictured ones.
The distinguished Mr Martin even looks something like I
pictured him, albeit not QUITE as ancient.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Apparent: A large, old, bossy person who tortures youths
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:31:50
EID:bfb5 207aabe0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144a0ec8
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 227 days
AS> AS> Because they're idiots. (Well, I'm sorry, but that's the answer.)
Yes
AS> AS> many Churches of Christ take a rather archaic vision of divorce.
They
AS> AS> take Jesus' words about that and use it to justify keeping together
AS> AS> abusive spouses and terrified victims, or people desperately unhappy
AS> AS> with each other. Churches of Christ are automonous, though, as
you
AS> AS> know. My wife's down in Mississippi where she grew up is nearly
that
AS> AS> conservative. And I would NOT go there regularly if I had any
choice
AS> AS> in it. However, the church I am going to, for instance, the youth
AS> AS> minister is divorced, and no one talks about removing him from
his
AS> AS> position within the church. I suspect (and you know much better
than
AS> AS> I, so take this guess for what it is) that as a male, he had more
AS> AS> entry into the hierarchy of the church, the elders and so on.
He
AS> AS> probably used some sort of justification for what he did, or said
you
AS> AS> mother was lying about the abuse. And maybe the elders believed
him.
AS> AS> Do I think it pretty indefensible, to ignore two children and
a woman
AS> AS> when they are most in need of help? Yes, indeed. Now, my church
has
AS> AS> and will keep on helping abused women. And does not disfellowship
AS> AS> people because they were smart enough to get out of a bad
AS> AS> relationship. One of the church secretaries is also divorced,
and I
AS> AS> know several such members who are divorced. Of course it is not
AS> AS> encouraged, but my minister has stated many times, from the pulpit
or
AS> AS> Sunday School class, that God doesn't want people to stay in
AS> AS> relationships where people are kept desperately unhappy, and if
the
AS> AS> congregation didn't like it, they better get a new preacher. He's
bee
AS> AS> there at least ten years now, so that tells you something.
I like to see my inspired words of wisdom too Al, but isn't
this a little much? (I know, I know, someone may have
missed it the first time)
AS> I don't think God wanted you to be "saved" under those terms. I think
He
AS> wants the mature, independent, thinking Becke Jones to choose Him,
and
AS> will accept nothing less.
Then, what is that business about 'coming to him as a little
child'? That doesn't imply maturity, independence or thinking.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:31:50
EID:ae2c 207aabe0
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144a0ec9
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 227 days
MB> Ok I will try and talk to him sunday and get back to you sunday night
MB> but no promises he thinks I have fell in with the devil because I talk
MB> to you all.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Holysmoke, the devil's pit!
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:39:05
EID:3280 207b4ce0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 5c6197d5
REPLY: 3:711/933 3150e442
On 21 Mar 96, Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote:
JB> Please explain: there is not a word about Cain _or_ Adam in Gen 1:11,
AG> Genesis 1:11 tells us that God's law of reproduction stipulates
AG> everything bring forth of its own kind. So unless there is some
AG> perversion, Adam as a
AG> Son of God - the only one at that time, could only bring forth another
AG> son of God. Cain was neither a son of Adam nor a son of God.
Care to tell me then, who _was_ Cain a son of? I mean _biologically_?
JB> and First John 1:12 doesn't even _exist_
AG> My apologies, that should have read I John 3:12.
Thanks. It behooves you, if you're going to argue highly emotional
subjects, and those based in the Bible, no less, to pay rather more
close attention to your refs. cited, eh?
JB> "Tommy rot?" (*Guffaw*) It looked accurate to me.... No one alive
JB> anywhere on the planet is _not_ a descendant of Eve/Adam, according
to
JB> the cretinist philosophy.
AG> Precisely, according to cretins. But those of faith who read their
AG> Bible know that the majority of people in this world are unrelated to
AG> Adam and therefore have no Kinsman Redeemer.
I take it then, that you consider the vast majority of Christians, all
of whom seem to think that Adam and Eve were the first, hence the
ultimately only, parents of all mankind, to be NOT "those of faith who
read their Bible?"
So who _IS_ related to Adam?
"Kind regards" notwithstanding, Anthony, you are one loose cannon.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... This is a logic tagline. <--- This is a lie.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:45:16
EID:300a 207b4da0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 ad44f206
On 25 Mar 96, DAVID RICE wrote:
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Roger Hunter <=-
FR> David Rice
FR> John Brawley
DR> >>DR> Just how =DOES= someone add gods to Evolutionary Theory?
>RH> OOoooooo...Are YOU gonna be SORRY you asked!!
FR> }:-} I can't _WAIT_ to see it. Then John can work on
FR> adding deities to mathematics!
DR> I'm still waiting for the answer. Maybe John could not come
DR> up with one.
Posted yesterday, in short form.
DR> Since no one knows the properties of the gods (electrical
DR> charge, chemical bonds, viscosity, temperature, etc.), it
DR> seems utterly impossible to me to include them in Evolutionary
DR> Theory. Maybe John can do so.
Consider the "properties" of quantum objects, and extrapolate.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... I'm sorry -- my karma ran over your dogma.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 218/801
|From: Becke Jones
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 5
|Date: 27 Mar 96 15:15:00
EID:f6ff 207b79e0
On 24 Mar 96 04:51pm, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to BECKE JONES:
-=>> Quoting Becke Jones to Judith Bandsma <=-
BJ>> I posted parts 1 & 2 a couple 'o weeks ago...they weren't sent out
in
BJ>> that packet...did you happen to catch them then?
JB> Nope. FIDO's been a really lousy dog lately. Back to obedience school
JB> for him. (Maybe neutering would help)
A lot of other people mentioned they didn't recieve parts 1 & 2 too...I'm
going to do some minor formatting to the document, and resend it later this
week...Keep an eye out for it..=)
Becke
JB> ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
JB> --- FLAME v1.1
JB> * Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498
JB> (1:372/911)
JB> B
... I have erased the thin line between genius and insanity.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 166
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ABUSERS
|Date: 27 Mar 96 15:15:00
EID:63dd 207b79e0
On 24 Mar 96 04:52pm, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to BECKE JONES:
BJ>> I know how scary it can be, believe me...
JB> Take it seriously, my dear. And give his name and description to as
JB> many of your new friends as will listen to you. If I had done that one
JB> thing, I'd have been warned and able to get away when Jack found me.
The only person I really talk to around here is my roommate Gordon...he
IS
very familiar with Michael, from what he looks like to what he'd try to
say
to see me. Forewarned is forearmed. And I do feel completely safe here for
the first time in a long time.
JB> Anyone who would kill an animal as punishment would not hesitate to
do
JB> the same to you.
No doubt. That's only one of the many horror stories I could tell you about
my relationship with Michael. And sick as that incident was, it was mild
compared to some of the other things he did...
Becke
... Crime...Sex...Drugs...Alcohol...God, I love TV evangelism!!!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 166
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 226/700 10 600 270/101 218/801
|From: Becke Jones
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK
|Date: 27 Mar 96 15:15:00
EID:7ff7 207b79e0
On 24 Mar 96 09:09am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA:
DC>> No... Besides, you will never guess who was my favorite group.
AS> ^^^^^^^^^
AS>> Well, if it's that unlikely...the Monkees? The Archies? (Sorry, but
AS>> you said I would never guess it, so I had to guess what I would think
AS>> most unlikely for you to like...) More seriously...the Mothers of
AS>> Invention? Jefferson Airplane/Starship?
JB>> You really fluffed that one, didn't you, Al? Or had you never heard
JB>> of Guess Who?
AS> Uh oh. My wife says she can vaguely remember the name, and I remember
AS> the Who, but the Guess Who? Uh...don't laugh...geez, this is
AS> embarrassing...it was my BROTHER who was the big music buff, not me
AS> (he had every record in the world, I had every book in the
AS> world---poetic exaggeration there)...well, I guess the sixties WERE
AS> better to me than I thought. They say if you remember the sixties,
AS> you weren't really involved. I'm drawing a total blank here.
AS> Can you name some of their songs?
Does "American Woman" ring a bell?
Becke
AS> ... Every morning is the dawn of a new error...
AS> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
AS> --- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
AS> * Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
AS> B
... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 166
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: All
|Sub: need quote
|Date: 26 Mar 96 17:55:00
EID:5384 207a8ee0
Where do I find the verse that gives the sin of Sodom as that of not
sharing with her neighbors?
My bible is paper...not one of those nifty electronic ones with a search
engine.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 27 Mar 96 06:55:00
EID:4f8d 207b36e0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Sean Mccullough <=-
AS> get out earlier, and why they were attracted to that sort of man in
AS> the first place. I invite comments by any women who can explain that.
For myself, Jack showed no signs of abuse or violence before we married.
He was loving and tender and funny. We lived together for a while before
we married and never once did he lay a hand on me or even indicate that
he would. The day we got married he turned to me and said 'I own you now,
got the bill of sale to prove it' while holding the marriage license.
Two weeks later he came in late and beat me so badly that he damaged a
kidney and I had to have stitches put in my head. I tried to get out then.
He doused the trailer of the friends I was staying with with gasoline and
set it on fire. Not only did I have to worry about myself, but about
everyone I came into contact with.
Then there was the control over every aspect of my life. We couldn't have
a phone, I couldn't have any friends unless he approved of them (which he
never did), I couldn't write a letter home unless he got to read it before
it was mailed...and he did the mailing. (Which I later found out didn't
get
done in most cases.) He had to approve my reading material, what I watched
on tv, the temperature of the water I did dishes in. (It wasn't hot enough
unless my hands turned lobster red from it.) I wasn't allowed to have ANY
money, not even small change for incidentals. Which got hard when he would
disappear for 2 or 3 days at a time leaving me with no food in the house.
One time he came home from one of those jaunts and found me gone. I had
found some soda bottles and taken them to the store for the deposit so I
could get a pound or 2 of rice just to have something to eat. That one cost
me 2 broken ribs and a broken hand. When he would leave, he would even take
the tubes out of the tv so that I couldn't watch anything he would disapprove
of while he was gone.
The wonder is not that it took me so long to get out...the wonder is that
I
got out at all...alive and without a murder charge hanging over my head.
... Tagline Deleted: Nothing funny about this shit.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: DOUBLE FEATURES.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 07:23:00
EID:d6a1 207b3ae0
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Marty Leipzig <=-
ML> ... Now wait a minute... how do we know you're the REAL Angel of
ML> Death?
DC> "I'm big, I'm Black and I loom". <- Miracle on 32nd Street, I think,
DC> with Edward G. Robinson, paraphrased.
Night Gallery. That episode played yesterday. It was the 'messiah' who
would be big, and black and loom. Yaphet Koto played the messiah.
... "You saw God?" "Er, yes...and she's black, sir."
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 27 Mar 96 07:32:00
EID:b9ca 207b3c00
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to J.j. Hitt <=-
JH> Take two Juju eyeballs and call me in the morning.
LB> Can I get those off a Lunch-Box Tree?
No, they grow in close proximity to the Eye q vine and in the same regions
with the Eye Scream bushes.
... Tagline not found: Moderator deleted.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 640/201 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Creator God
|Date: 27 Mar 96 06:03:48
EID:b102 207b3060
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 144a86c3
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAN CEPPA to JESSE JONES on 03-24-96
DC>-> On 03-23-96 07:55, Jesse Jones got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> JG> percieve that God created hell, And a good god would not
DC> DC> JG> create a bad place.
DC> DC>"I, the Lord created evil. I the Lord do all these things."
DC>
DC> JJ> Isa 45:7-9 "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and
DC> JJ> create woe; I the LORD do all these things. (8) Shower, O
DC> JJ> heavens,
DC>Thank you for the larger quote than I had in my archieves, Jesse,
DC>as well as supporting my position...
No, Dan. The point of the larger quote, which you continue to
truncate, is not to embrace evil, but to affirm the omnipotence of God.
Isa 45:7-9 "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and
create woe; I the LORD do all these things. (8) Shower, O heavens, from
above, and let the skies rain down righteousness; let the earth open,
that salvation may spring up, and let it cause righteousness to sprout
up also; I the LORD have created it. (9) Woe to you who strive with your
Maker, earthen vessels with the potter! Does the clay say to the one who
fashions it, "What are you making"? or "Your work has no handles"?"
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/26/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
War on Drugs? Great! Let's bomb R.J. Reynolds.
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: EPISTEMOLOGY
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:22:00
EID:9945 207b52c0
-=> Quoting Lee Woofenden to Roger Hunter <=-
LW> You exaggerate what I wrote above. I didn't say "absolute proof." I
LW> said "some kind of strict, scientific demonstration." Anything less
LW> than that will be promptly rejected as inconclusive.
Agreed. But that's perfectly proper.
LW> You're making my argument for me, Roger: Classical scientific theory
LW> says matter exists, quantum theory seems to say it doesn't. And all
we
LW> have is our own experience that walls seem solid to us. Scientifically,
LW> we can't say whether that's because matter exists or because we are
LW> some sort of energy fields.
A difference that makes no difference IS no difference, to quote someone.
RH> classical level. I can ignore any God who has no classical presence.
LW> But does not some of our science and technology depend on quantum
LW> reality? Is quantum reality irrelevant? If so, why do you grant it any
LW> more credence than you grant to God? If not, how can you ignore it?
I can ignore it in everyday life because I live at the classical level.
As such, I cannot walk thru walls or jump off tall buildings. I must
behave as tho matter is real, and its' ultimate quantum reality
is irrelevant.
By the same logic I can ignore God because he has no presence at
my level of reality.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 27 Mar 96 11:46:40
EID:b121 207b5dc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64651afe
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3157697b
On Mar 25 13:11 96, Lynda Bustilloz of 1:109/601 wrote:
JH>> Take two Juju eyeballs and call me in the morning.
LB> Can I get those off a Lunch-Box Tree?
Speaking of lunch... is there anyway to drag you up to Baltimore
for lunch or diner with Don Martin and myself on May Day? I'll be
in Lower BosWash for a couple days next month.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: SPONG ON THE HERESY TRIAL
|Date: 27 Mar 96 11:57:34
EID:f7a5 207b5f20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 646532d1
On Mar 25 18:08 96, Dennis Hall of 1:104/514 wrote:
KDM>> I know little about Spong, but I think I'd like him.
DH> Only if you like someone that says one thing, and does
DH> another, although I thought that this was most detestable to
DH> devout Christians and Atheists alike.
Would you please substantiate this allegation.
Use Spong's own words for the "says one thing" part and any
readily available and referencable work (like a newspaper)
for the "does another" part.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: MAD COWS
|Date: 27 Mar 96 12:09:09
EID:a750 207b6120
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64655dee
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 643271b0
On Mar 23 15:34 96, Martin Goldberg of 1:124/9005.221 wrote:
MG> There has been an influx of Russian scientists here at the
MG> medical school.
I've been looking for a way to work this into the conversation.
Do you have any comments or observations on BSE (Mad Cow Disease)
and "Prionic diseases". Of particular interest is the theory
that such diseases (including CJD and Kuru) are transmitted without
the benefit or use of any genetic material.
According to an article in the Jan 95 Scientific American the
vector is a protien that can reshape similar protiens into
copies of itself.
This morning, I notice that Texas A&M is hooting and hollering
about how there is no "scientific proof" that BSE can be
transfered to humans.
It's been my observation that anytime a professional starts
moaning about "proof" it's because they don't want to
examine the existing evidence.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: role model for Maria
|Date: 27 Mar 96 17:30:58
EID:d640 207b8bc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 646849ca
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3158f00e
On Mar 26 18:17 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
JH>> Does she sign her checks Liz Windsor?
SA> Actually, she signs things "Elizabeth II". I know this, because
SA> for some reason, my mother has my aunt's Air Force commission in
SA> her possession - and all such commissions are signed by the
SA> current monarch.
Obviously she would use her title when signing a official document.
But what about personal perchaces like her horse collection?
Or do they really belong to the taxpayers and she's just holding
them in trust?
This reminds me of the self-styled Conservative Jew we had here
who claimed that he dated his checks (and one would assume his
tax returns) using the Hebrew callendar. I just had (and still
have) a hard time believeing that anyone would take checks
post-dated some 3000 years.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 27 Mar 96 17:48:16
EID:f609 207b8e00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64687d9f
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3158f00b
On Mar 25 17:58 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
SA> When I get it more complete, I'm thinking of contacting
SA> FASA or some other RPG publisher. Why am I saying this? I
SA> don't want to get sued. If you have any objection or want
SA> a percentage, let me know now or forever hold yer piece.
Of course I want a cut!
Tell ya what.... the first thousand dollars (measured in either
US or Canadian, your choice) is yours. I get twenty percent after
that point and free licence to expand on your copyright. The later
provision added because I would be a working partner, I'm very well
versed in the beliefs of the UFO abduction sub-culture.
I've long thought about producing a compendium of the 'UFO universe'
and all the alleged races, consipracies, motives, spacecraft, etc. etc.
As it stands right now, there is a lot of discord and
confusion among UFO-believers. No central authority figure or
framework has yet emerged. The situation reminds me of what first
century Xianity must have been like before Paul took control.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 28 Mar 96 01:44:22
EID:43d0 207c0d80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 646cbd7d
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3157ccd7
On Mar 26 10:49 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
DW> Not a chance. You forgot to ask *why* I'm going to blow up
DW> the world.
Who cares why?
We probably have it comeing anyway.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 28 Mar 96 01:51:08
EID:492c 207c0e60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 646cd8d3
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89480E45
On Mar 21 20:42 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
AS>> Invention? Jefferson Airplane/Starship?
DC> Airplane was great, but I never really got into Starship...
I used to enjoy the Airplane, but then I ran into a bunch of
Grace Slick worshipers and it's sort of ruined the experience
for me.
With Rock n' Roll I find it best to seperate the art from the
artist. Just because I enjoy someone's music doesn't mean I want
to know who they are sleeping with, what they eat (or won't eat)
or how often they take a shit.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] Baha'i 1/2
|Date: 28 Mar 96 01:59:08
EID:9ffd 207c0f60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 646cf7dc
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 315208d7
On Mar 21 03:32 96, Lynda Bustilloz of 1:109/601 wrote:
LB> If the above was his purpose, yes. No one at the wedding
LB> seemed to realize what had happened except Mary -- and she
LB> seemed to know in advance that it *would* happen.
LB> Unfortunately, she later seems to have forgotten both this
LB> episode and the extraordinary events around his birth, in
LB> spite of being a major player in both scenes.
Hmm... sounds like evidence of time travel to me.
She didn't recall them because they hadn't happened (to her) yet.
Maybe she thought Jesus was her adopted son...
Not sure I like the hypothesis, it could be used to explain all
the Biblical contradictions...
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: satan runs
|Date: 26 Mar 96 19:43:46
EID:5402 207a9d60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 153537c4
REPLY: 3:711/933 3155aec9
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
AG> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Up yours, fundy. No one asked you to open with such an insulting greeting.
SR> Brad...are you some sort of run-away 'test subject' for an unknown
SR> medication?
AG> I believe Brad has taken Dr. Simon Peter's prescription
O.D.'d on it, you mean. Most babble-myth lovers do that, you know.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Learned Men
|Date: 27 Mar 96 16:53:12
EID:73c8 207b86a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3159839b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Brad Jackson said "Bible" to Sean Mccullough,
adding:
BJ> You sound like a very learned man, and yet you still don't
BJ> believe in Jesus Christ.
The PURPOSE of getting an education is freeing oneself
from illusions. He doesn't believe in the Tooth Fairy,
either.
Later, you say to him:
SM> Brad, Dan doesn't need to do ANYTHING to establish his point. He
SM> DENIES the existence of your God. You CLAIM that said God exists.
SM> YOU have the burden of evidence here -- ALL OF IT. Dan, being the
SM> denying one, is ASSUMED correct until evidenced otherwise.
SM> Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour.
BJ> I don't understand where you get this idea that I have to prove
BJ> anything!
He does not ask you to prove anything, boy genius: he
asks you for evidence.
Later still, you say to Preston Simpson:
PS> I stand for plenty of things. It isn't my fault that you consider what
PS> I do stand for to be pointless or non-existent; that's merely an
PS> indication of lack of attention on your part.
BJ> I have to disagree with you here. Everything you do is pointless
BJ> unless it is done for the Glory of God!
BJ> I pay attention, but only to the word of God.
If you only pay attention to the word of god, just what
the fuck are you doing on this echo? He does not post here.
Still later, you say to me:
DM> Investing heavily in a Centigrade thermometer to make his IQ
DM> higher than his temperature, Brad Jackson said "Better then
DM> This!" to Dan Ceppa, adding:
DM> Name one "true satan lover" here, apart from Asmodiddly.
DM> Got any evidence for this satan thing yet--any evidence
DM> distinguishable from the workings of human imagination, that
DM> is?
BJ> I don't have all satan lovers written down Don, but they know
BJ> who they are!
I asked you to name ONE, moron, not all of them. And I
am entirely unconcerned about whether or not they know who
they are--I asked you to identify one, along with some
evidence that this satan imaginary playmate really exists
apart from the diseased imaginings of people like yourself.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: THE END?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 17:25:38
EID:92e7 207b8b20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3159839c
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Judith Bandsma said "THE END?" to Don Martin,
adding:
-=> Quoting Don Martin to All <=-
DM> Is anyone else here waiting for the new line of "Kerr
DM> Grotesque" greenware to come out of South Carolina? Life
DM> sized, and featuring three newly torn assholes!
JB> Ah, Don...you make me sound like Attilla the Hun's mother during a
JB> bout of PMS.
JB> Actually, I wasn't that nice.
I knew I could count on you!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 27 Mar 96 17:27:42
EID:8745 207b8b60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3159839d
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31574657
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
David Worrell said "Waco rememberance" to Kevin D. Mckenzie,
adding:
DW> TL> KDM>>> What rank? If I remember correctly, that defense is a
DW> TL> KDM>>> applicable to people under a certain rank.
DW> TP>> ANOTHER day you missed in civics class, apparently.
DW>> Remember My Lai, dipshit?
KM> Thank you!
DW> That'll be $20. I do take checks. :)
KM> I'd forgotten the name of the villiage, but I *knew* that
KM> only the officer was found guilty; the non-coms and enlisted
KM> were not.
DW> I just finished reading a book that mentioned it. If you haven't read
DW> anything by Tim O'Brien (brian?), try _The Things They Carried_. It
DW> might even be in the library there at case. I think you'll like it.
Tim O'Brien also deals with the My Lai theme in his "On
the Lake of the Woods"--very good novel about PTS. I have
been a fan of his since his "Going after Cacciato" came out
in the 70s.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Holy Shit!
|Date: 27 Mar 96 17:34:49
EID:eade 207b8c40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3159839e
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
In a meeting of the mindless, Janice Coleman said "HEAVENLY
FATHER" to Brad Jackson, adding:
JC> This is the biggest problem with this echo. I thought it was for
JC> debate but there is no debate. An issue is presented and there is no
JC> intelligent response, just mudslinging. It is absolutely the most
JC> pitiful display I have ever seen.
JC> It seems to me that some are afraid to address the issues so they
JC> just hurl insults. Pathetic.
Isn't it wonderful, gang, that yet another truly
superior person has shown up to patronize us? It always
warms MY heart, I can tell you that right now. I wonder
whether this wise virgin will hang around, or whether she
and Brad will just slip off into the shadows to put the Fear
of God into each other.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: [2/2] YOUR DAILY MURD
|Date: 27 Mar 96 17:39:02
EID:9fe6 207b8ce0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3159839f
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dennis Hall said "[2/2] YOUR DAILY MURD" to Preston Simpson,
adding:
PS> Psst. "Murder" is defined as the illegal taking of a human life by
PS> another.
PS> Suicide is not murder. Abortion is not murder. When will you learn to
PS> stop trying to muddy the issues with emotionalism?
DH> When you say that abortion is not murder, you have to _assume_ that
DH> the unborn fetus is not a human, and not a life.
No assumption is necessary. If you will look into a law
dictionary, you will discover that the fetus is not, as a
matter of fact, a person in the eyes of the law. Inasmuch as
murder is a crime that can only be carried out against
persons in the eyes of the law, killing a fetus is not
murder.
DH> If we are free to make such assumptions, could we
DH> not assume that people with dark skin are not human?
If you will look into that same law dictionary, you will
discover that persons with dark skins, "born or naturalized
within the United States" or "just visiting" ARE persons in
the eyes of the law. We are not free to make such
"assumptions" in their case, the actions of the LAPD to the
contrary notwithstanding.
DH> I just thought that I would throw that out to you. If
DH> you don't want to touch it, you won't offend me.
It is you we should not wish to touch, I am afraid, but
I doubt that very many here are all that concerned about
offending you. How could any person as ignorant as yourself
be offended by ANYthing? Offense requires comprehension.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: What is a religion?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 17:49:59
EID:9c21 207b8e20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315983a0
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dennis Hall said "What is a religion?" to Ryan Shaw,
adding:
RS> Some people like to think it is a religious debate conference. For
RS> the most part however, it's where we all come to be disgusted by
RS> religions [and the followers of them].
DH> Atheism asserts that there is no God (god).
What is called "strong atheism" does, but most of us are
weak atheists here. I do not assert such a thing. Rather, I
assert that I have yet to see any evidence that ANY
supernatural beings whatsoever exist outside of human
imagination.
DH> Atheists must believe that this is true, so I would personally
DH> give them the same status as one who believes in
DH> Buddha, Satan, or any god.
Where do you stand on Zeus? Does he exist?
DH> Atheists do have faith.
In the ability of persons such as yourself to utterly
lack any genuine evidence for their imaginary superfriends,
sure, but beyond that, sorry. Show me some evidence and
I shall grow some faith; I have often said on this very echo
that I would sign up as soon as I saw some.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Stuart Lumgair
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 26 Mar 96 06:16:18
EID:56de 207a3200
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 14493830
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting STUART LUMGAIR to JESSE JONES on 03-22-96
SL>Jesse Jones wrote in a message to J.J. Hitt:
SL>JJ> Let me ask your opinion, however, of the larger
SL>JJ> question: was the former Soviet Union the moral equal of
SL>JJ> the U.S.A.?
SL> I sent a fairly involved answer to this question a few
SL> weeks ago, and have not seen a reply. My feed at this
SL> end is poor, so I was wondering if you had recieved it ?
Well, that is not much to go on, Stuart, but I don't recall such
a message.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/25/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
What was the best thing BEFORE sliced bread?
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 26 Mar 96 14:07:15
EID:d6e5 207a70e0
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>of evolution and life, all life forms evolved from a previous life
JG>form. We are on dangerous ground when we come to that wall of where
JG>the very first life form came from.
KDM> I've sent you information on that. Self-replicating molecules have
KDM> been observed; in a billion years, who knows what would happen?
And who cares ? The real question is, how much "something" can you
get from absolute "nothing", in a billion years ? Where did those
self replicating molecules come from in the first place ? Where did those
scientific, or natural laws come from, that allowed those molecules to
self-replicate ? You have no way of answering those questions with
anything more than supposition or speculation.
JG>From what we know about science, Energy cannot be created or
JG>destroyed, sure there are some wonderful theories beyond that, but I
JG>hardly think we have come to a point where we can positively identify
JG>that something can come from nothing.
There's a remarkably large fusion generator in the sky; that's
KDM> where the energy has come from.
Where did that large fusion generator come from :-).
JG>SO when you come to those two particular areas that are based solely
JG>on theory, then science becomes simply another religion based on
JG>having FAITH that these theories are indeed accurate.
KDM> Everything is based on a theory, Jim. It is impossible to prove
KDM> anything in reality.
EXACTLY ! And all religion is, is mans attempt to guess where everything
came from. that is the "creator" part of god. But there is another
part to god, and that is the "spiritual" part. the "right and wromg".
the tree of the knowledge of good and evil god.
The bible says, that all physical things will pass away, only these
three spiritual things will remain. Faith, hope and love. I believe
there is energy in these things. Think carefully about those three
words. They are motivators, sustainers, the REAL power of men.
JG>All I am saying is that wee call the physical things that exist a
JG>"creation", I realize you may see that as a "misnomer", I understand
JG>your point and respect it.
KDM> Thank you.
JG>But it still remains that whatever exists, came from somewhere. Write
JG>now I will simply refer to that somewhere which you may call
JG>nothingness or the big bang or whatever, as god the creator.
KDM> So god is the universe?
Of course. The bible says in the beginning was only god. What did god
create the universe out of ? I believe the universe is god, and the
big bang, was the birth of man. The sperm and egg of life uniting.
Sure it took 4.3 billion years of pregnancy before man was finally
born, but it was all part of the process and it really isnt much time
in comparison to eternity, is it ?
JG>This is seperate from god the spirit which I consider to belong to
JG>the non physical aspect of man, things like concepts, love, faith,
JG>truth. These things are all non physical but
JG>they do exist.
KDM> Agreed. I'm probably incorrect in at least one of them, but agreed.
JG>Of course I recognize that these so called non physical areas may be
JG>a by-product of a physical response in our physical brain, but by the
JG>same token so might god be.
KDM> So we create god?
I find a lot to think about in the first chapter of the gospel of
John. In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word
was god, and the word became flesh and dwelt among men. Also god is a
spirit so the bible says. THINK about it. At some point in mans evolution,
he must have come up with this idea of "right and wrong" at some point he
must have eaten from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil. Isn't that, all the garden of eden story is ? Some one said..."Where
did "good and evil" come from?". Who was the first man "adam", someone at
somepoint must have wondered, if men and women come only from their
parents, where did the FIRST man and woman come from ?
SO what does the word "word" up there represent other than the obvious
reference to Jesus Christ ? The word represents LANGUAGE
INTELLIGENCE thoughts, concepts.But above all, TRUTH .
JG>The bottom line, is that they DO exist, regardless of whether you can
JG>put them in a test tube or under a microscope.
KDM> But most people feel those, Jim. A large segment of people don't feel
KDM> god.
Maybe they "feel" god, but just dont call it god. Maybe they call it
their "conscience", maybe they call it "reasoning" or "common sense" or
"personal moral values". WHatever name you give it, it basically represents
the same thing. It represents what each of us believe is "good or evil".
JG>The bible says "God is a spirit". What is a spirit ? A mental
JG>concept? Okay, but even if so, it does exist. But what really exist
JG>outside of mans mental concept of it ?
KDM> I don't know. However, there is evidence of a world outside my head.
KDM> Solipsism doesn't work.
"the theory that only the self exists"... And why is that not possible.
I have been told by an atheist, that scientists can manipulate your
brain and make you think you are swimming or talking to aliens or
walking, or anything at all. That then brings into question, our ability
to perceive what is real and what is simply perception.
WHat evidence is there that you are not just "dreaming" ALL of this ?
JG>These are very deep questions that I think deserve more study and
JG>investigation and definition, than just some ridiculing comment
JG>or hand waving dismissal.
KDM> Have I done that?
Certainly not in this message. But others have. I have simply twitted
them out. I dont mind people disagreeing with me, and I certainly
respect their opinions. I myself have no reason not to believe the
theory of evolution as the percieved way that physical life has evolved.
But always remember that we are limited by our 5 senses, into percieving
all of life in a physical way. Especially if we refuse to believe anything
that is not physical, doesnt exist.
KDM> ... Anything that kills you makes you . . . well, dead.
Nice tagline, but .....Are you sure ? :-)
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Or maybe just sugar
|Date: 26 Mar 96 14:07:15
EID:cd40 207a70e0
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>Are you sure that this amendment specifically removes the rights of
JG>homosexuals to sue or take any sort of legal action if they are
JG>discriminated against, or is this your perception of it. I mean is
JG>this the actual legal terminology and intent of the specific
JG>amendment you are talking about, or is do you just believe it will
JG>result in this ?
KDM> That was the intent of the bill, Jim. I've been unable to find the
KDM> actual text of the bill, but all the articles I've read agree that
the
KDM> intent of the bill was to remove the rights of homosexuals.
I really appreciate your responses kevin. I am glad I twitted out those
people who would just ridicule my remarks and not ask me what I meant.
But then again, it seems they were also deliberately misconstruing my
comments.
When you use the word "intent" it can be very ambiguous. What you think
is the intent , may not be what the person who proposed the plan intended.
A much better way to put it is , would be "That was the result of the bill"
If that is how you see it, and then give examples as to how the bill has
violated the rights of homosexuals.
All the "articles" you have read, may have been by people who do not
like the bill and are trying to put it in a bad light. It may be by
people who are "defensive" because they are afraid of it.
JG>Or is this amendment trying to protect the rights of another segment
JG>of society ?
KDM> Which segment would this be?
Well if you are saying that the bill specifically violates the rights of
homosexuals, then it might be to protect the rights of hetero-sexuals.
But bills should be seen as protecting the rights of ALL people regardless
of their sexual preferences. Here is Canada we are also still trying to
get the sexual preference in with sex, religion , race etc ...
JG>There will always be problems when the rights of one group violate
JG>the rights of another group. Both groups must have their rights
JG>protected. And if it comes where the two rights cannot exist
JG>simultaneously, then I think the rights of the majority must be
JG>considered first. HOWEVER there are certain inalienable rights which
JG>should not be denied in order to appease the majority's want as
JG>opposed to rights.
KDM> Like what? Give me an example here.
Actually I am having some difficulty here trying to think of one.
For example you can claim the right of freedom of religion, but what
happens if the excercising of your religion puts another persons life
in jeopardy. Common example giving blood transfusions to Jehovah Witness
children when their lives are in imminent danger. Extreme example when
the religion would require the sacrifice of a virgin.
The right of freedom of speech. What happens if your use that right to
incite violence, or conspire to murder, or overthrow the government.
But at least I have shown, that it is possible for people to violate
the rights of others, under the claim that they are just excercising
their own rights.
JG>I am not making any kind of statement on this particular bill. But I
JG>would like to know more about the specifics of it, in terms of what I
JG>have stated above.
KDM> If I can find them, I'll send them to you.
It is very important to make sure that these accusations, are not
just the perceptions of those who might see the bill as limitting
their own violation of the rights of others. In the gay community
especially for me was this disgusting organization involved with
the "Boys loving men" garbage. Even between heterosexuals pedeophilia
is against the law. Why would these people want it to be one of their
"rights" ?
This is not a case of discrimination or violating Gay mens rights by not
allowing them to sexually molest children.
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:33
EID:533b 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a0365
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell Angel Fundy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
RJ> Yes, I'm _quite_ intrigued by this as well. After all, we'd
RJ> have to cover the stratum on every square inch of the globe.
RJ> How can we do that when just any yahoo can go dig in their
RJ> own backyard until they reach that layer? Imagine the con-
RJ> spiracy! That's something only the Blue Council could pull
RJ> off.
DW> First I find out that Satan has been giving all the other heathens
DW> money, and now i find out that I'm a member of an all-powerful global
DW> conspiracy.
It's kind of neat, having that much power.
DW> Did we also kill JFK?
Yes. Also his brother. Those are the projects that we can talk about. As
for the others, well--only the Blue Council knows for sure.
... Send $20 for your free prayer cloth.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Questor's back
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:34
EID:2743 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a0366
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Steve Quarrella Questor's back wgah'nagl fhtagn.
SQ> I'd suggest taking the Windows '95 exam, as the Windows 3.1 exam is
SQ> allegedly going to be retired within the year (Of course, I'm certain
SQ> being a 3.1 MCP will STILL be of interest to most companies,
SQ> regardless of whether or not Microsoft thinks they're going to all
SQ> drop 3.1 tomorrow. In MY case, I'll lose my MCSE if I don't keep up
SQ> with the Jim Joneses.).
Unverified rumor: Microsoft is going to kill Windows '95. They're supposed
to start asking people to turn in their disks for it, and those folks
will received Windows 3.11 or Windows NT as compensation.
... In case of emergency, break glass. Scream. Bleed to death.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Janice Coleman
|Sub: HEAVENLY FATHER
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:34
EID:33ba 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a0367
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Janice Coleman HEAVENLY FATHER wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JC> This is the biggest problem with this echo. I thought it was for
JC> debate but there is no debate. An issue is presented and there is no
Opinions vary.
JC> intelligent response, just mudslinging. It is absolutely the most
JC> pitiful display I have ever seen.
And you've been lurking for how long?
JC> It seems to me that some are afraid to address the issues so they
JC> just hurl insults. Pathetic.
Isn't it, though? Oh, well. Foster some debate, Janice.
... Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: CLAIMS OF DEITY CONSTRUCT
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:34
EID:6084 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a0368
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Thomas Biniasz CLAIMS OF DEITY CONSTRUCT wgah'nagl fhtagn.
> MG>>contained all the matter in the universe. When a critical
> MG>>mass was achieved by gravitational compression, the mass
> MG>>expanded.
TB> Where's my proof of God?
God is not mathematics. How about some evidence?
TB> The Big Bang Is a lie... let me ask you a question?? where did the
TB> critical mass come from in the first place.. tell me how things
TB> (matter) can come from nothing?
Where did God come from?
TB> Let 's talk about the spacial density of the Galaxies, If your Big
TB> bang happened you would find given volumes of matter of space
TB> different the farther you got out from the source of the big bang...
TB> but we find the oppsite of that.. we find that all galaxies containe
TB> the same spacial density in between the matter!! what do you make of
TB> that ... it implies that as Genesis say the Universice was created
TB> complete not in an explosion....
You are making the same, tired old error of assuming a polarized set of
conditions. Reality does not always consist of A or B, but frequently
presents us with a myriad of choices. If the universe didn't come into
being the way modern scientists think it did, then this does not give
your mythos the green light automatically. You must still contend with
the other religions who say that their god kicked it all off, or you
must deal with the possibility that everybody's wrong and the answer is
something that nobody's thought of yet.
TB> Quit trying to explaine away God, Open you heart and head SEEK HIM!!
I looked for God. I didn't find him. Why?
TB> Tom in Denver... Because of Him!
I guess that your parents had nothing to do with it.
TB> P.S. I really don't expect you to answer this because you have no
TB> facts only Public schooling lies, you have not reseachered anything
on
TB> your own ... have you! :)
An idiotic claim in view of the fact that Martin holds a Ph. D., while you
seem to conspicuously lack one.
... HolySmoke: Modern high-tech crematoria for ancient low-end beliefs.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: [2/2] YOUR DAILY MURD
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:34
EID:36aa 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a0369
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dennis Hall [2/2] YOUR DAILY MURD wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Psst. "Murder" is defined as the illegal taking of a human life by
PS> another.
PS> Suicide is not murder. Abortion is not murder. When will you learn to
PS> stop trying to muddy the issues with emotionalism?
DH> When you say that abortion is not murder, you have to _assume_ that
DH> the unborn fetus is not a human, and not a life. If we are free to make
I don't have to assume any such thing, as you would have realized had you
actually *read* what I wrote.
Murder is a legalistic definition. It implies that any killing of human
beings that is done without governmental consent or in case of self-
defense is wrong. Abortion is done with governmental consent (remember
Roe v. Wade, 1973?), as is the practice of warfare. While both may be
open to debate as to the actual morality of said actions, it cannot be
denied that in this country, neither case is murder because the state has
not defined it as such.
Do you understand?
DH> such assumptions, could we not assume that people with dark skin are
DH> not human?
We could equally assume that stupid people are not human. I understand the
point that you're trying to make, but that point has absolutely nothing
to do with what I wrote.
DH> I just thought that I would throw that out to you. If you don't want
DH> to touch it, you won't offend me.
If you don't want to have anything to do with my rebuttal, fine.
... "There aren't enough scoundrels in your life." - Han Solo
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: CHILDREN
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:34
EID:3622 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a036a
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dennis Hall CHILDREN wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> The choice is, as I've said before, the lesser of two evils. Have an
PS> abortion, thereby breaking the law and risking death, or have the kid,
PS> and endure social ostracism and hard times for decades to come?
DH> You left out the choice risking pregnancy in the first place. Abortion
DH> is a "quick-fix" after the fact.
Not in all cases. It's an option that I wish never had to be resorted to,
but until the day when perfectly effective contraceptive methods are
widely available, I will continue to insist that it be an option that
people have recourse to.
... Cthulhu: it's the surreal thing.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: Pascal's Wager
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:35
EID:c796 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a036b
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dennis Hall Pascal's Wager wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MG> Let's make it much simpler then....Do you believe in an all powerful
MG> and merciful god?
MG> It's the same thing. Unmitigated mythology.
DH> Pascal's Wager:
DH> I am wagering that God does exist, and you are wagering that He
DH> does not. If I am right, I gain everything, and if I am wrong, I lose
DH> nothing. If you are wrong, you lose everything.
DH> (paraphrase)
Rebuttal to Pascal's Wager:
What if you're both wrong and Odin is the supreme deity?
Pascal's Wager is incredibly simple-minded for it assumes a polarized
universe (that is, one in which only two options exist). Life, as we all
know from experience, is not always filled with binary solution sets such
as the one above.
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (D)amn Torpedoes. Full Speed Ahead?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:35
EID:222f 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a036c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dennis Hall SCIENCE VS. FAITH wgah'nagl fhtagn.
SS> Thomas is one of the few in the bible that I could respect. At least
SS> (according to the myth) he asked for evidence. Here's my quote:
SS> "Blind to the truth are those who believe what is not seen."
DH> Dearest Shelby:
DH> You believe by faith, and not fact that the bible is mythology.
Yes and no. The fact remains that there is evidence available contradicting
the Bible on some issues. There is also the fact that the Bible makes
outrageous claims that are either wholly or mostly unsubstantiated.
DH> There is a school of thought called Logical Positivism that
DH> claims that the only things that exist are those which can be proven
by
DH> scientific means. Upon closer inspection of this theory, it has been
DH> concluded that they are a "religion" because they believe by faith that
DH> their assumption is true. In other words, they cannot back up their
DH> claim by any scientific means. Do you belong to this "religion"?
This is not a religion, no matter how much you might like to think it is.
Religions traditionally involve gods and the worship of same. There are
no
gods in logical positivism.
... I thought you agreed to phone me before doing anything impossible.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: Greatest authority?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:35
EID:fd13 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a036d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dennis Hall Greatest authority? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LB> Jesus was hung on a Cross[sic].
DR> There is no evidence for such a claim.
DH> Whether or not there is evidence does not prove or disprove the
DH> supposed event.
Proof is a property of mathematics and alcohol. Logic (and science, by
the way) deals with evidence. Proof is an absolute and therefore a poor
fit in the real world. Evidence merely enhances or diminishes the
probability that a given statement is or is not true.
In short, outside of math, it is very nearly impossible to prove anything.
The best that we can do is show evidence that speaks for or against a
particular proposition.
... Dragonslayer needed. No experience expected.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: What is a religion?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:35
EID:00cd 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a036e
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dennis Hall What is a religion? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DH> Atheism asserts that there is no God (god). Atheists must believe that
Atheism asserts no such thing. Atheism is a profound lack of belief in
any god whatsoever. Lack of belief does *not* equal disbelief (which is
itself a belief). The difference between those two terms is rather like
the difference between 0 and -1.
... Survival Tip #3: Never invite Cthulhu over for a bite.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: Evidence?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:11:35
EID:0081 207bb160
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 315a036f
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dennis Hall Evidence? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DH> I hope that you hear this often:
DH> Truth is not confined to physical evidence.
Substantiate this claim.
... All life is a conjugation of the verb "to eat."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
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SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 27 Mar 96 18:29:23
EID:883b 207b93a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 16f33ab6
REPLY: 1:116/19 030B22D4
On (24 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> Then...by that token...
AS> Surely your complaint that God is violating His own rules of
AS> behavior He lays down for us is silly? Since God (whatever
AS> Creator you choose--Jehovah, Brahma, Allah, whatever) is not
AS> of our species, you cannot call Him a murderer when He
AS> permits death, nor a hypocrite for imposing such rules on
AS> us...unless you scratch the door and go outside to excrete,
AS> and bite strangers when they show up.
That's only true if you concede that I have claimed unconditional
love for virii, gnats, etc. Otherwise, the analogy breaks down
before it gets out of the garage.
... Life is a sexually transmitted disease.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 27 Mar 96 18:30:45
EID:883b 207b93c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d4118f62
REPLY: 1:116/19 030B284C
On (24 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> And THAT, of course, is part of what I mean by altruism above
AS> and beyond societal and genetic necessity. One can imagine a
AS> race so constructed where they thrive on paranoia and
AS> suspicion. (Some CIA types come close). The apologists of the
AS> Middle Ages did not base their arguments primarily on how
AS> well the world was constructed, because, quite frankly, they
AS> lived much closer to the DISASTERS of nature...floods, black
AS> plagues, etc. They based it primarily on the moral nature of
AS> man, which is so NOT in accord with nature, that they felt
AS> must have been derived from an extra-natural source.
I don't know if we can make that determination or not. While
certain behaviors might APPEAR to be against our best interest,
they may, in fact, from another perspective be in our best
interest.
Have you read _The Selfish Gene_? Dawkins talks about this very
issue at considerable length. When there is danger nearby, birds
send out alarms so their peers can run for cover. By doing that,
they "give away" their own location, decreasing their individual
chances of living any longer. Yet, they do this. Why? Are they
being altruistic? Probably it is a sheer matter of birds who
shriek in alarm sometimes getting away, and living to hatch other
birds who shriek at danger. Also, ALL birds of that "kind" have a
better chance at survival as compared to non-shriekers. Given
that, species that didn't shriek are probably not around any
longer; they are among those breeds that we call "extinct."
So, don't so readily assume that altruism is about human behavior,
because we see it demonstrated in many species besides humans.
And, don't assume that what ensures OUR survival also ensures the
survival of our (homo sapiens') genetic code, because it ain't
necessarily so. And, after all said and done, the survival thing
is about survival of the species (human DNA), not about survival
of the individual.
... HolySmoke: Fundy roadkill on the Information Superhighway.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose One
|Date: 27 Mar 96 18:46:12
EID:c12d 207b95c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 42326cab
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 1570bbd2
On (Fri 22 Ma) Rick Mcfarlane wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
MB> It was the unwillingness to swear to a belief in god that god
MB> them in trouble.
RM> Not "in trouble". Just excluded from membership.
The "them" in the above is the BSA, which, I admit was unclear.
MB> In this case, they are being disallowed because of their
MB> nonbelief, which is a stance on religion, not a religion.
RM> Exactly.
MB> You can have a stance on religion without having a religion,
MB> can't you? Seems to me pretty straight-forward in that
MB> respect.
RM> Certainly. But the BSA charter doesn't say that they will
RM> accept everyone regardless of their stance on religion. It
RM> says that they will accept everyone regardless of their
RM> religion. Since the judge used that specific part of their
RM> charter to rule that they had discriminated against these
RM> atheists based on their religious creed, he has obviously
RM> erred.
While what you say is true, may I ask this? Do you think the First
Amendment of the U.S. Constitution also protects atheists? It
doesn't mention them in the document; all it says is that we are
free to practice religion without government concern or
interference. Maybe you think that atheists give up their freedom
where religion is concerned. Do you? Or, is the null condition
also covered by the First Amendment?
The same applies to ALL anti-discrimination laws; we can't
discriminate against people who aren't registered to vote when we
hire and fire, either, even though they technically have no
political affiliation. Savvy?
RM> In fact, if you check the rest of that charter, you'll find
RM> that a theistic stance on religion is expected of members,
RM> and you'll also find out why.
And that's patently unconstitutional, so long as they have the
support of the Government.
RM> I wonder if the Catholic Church can be forced to accept
RM> Muslims as members?
MB> The BSA isn't a church;
RM> Of course not. What it is, is an organization that includes
RM> three components in it's program - a physical component, a
RM> mental component, and a spiritual component. The spiritual
RM> component must, of necessity, assume that the members hold a
RM> theistic point of view, and this has been an integral part of
RM> the program since the organization's inception.
RM> Why on earth would an atheist who denies the existence of the
RM> spiritual want to participate in such a program in any case?
RM> Obviously, because he wants access to the physical and mental
RM> parts of the program. And to accomodate him, everyone who
RM> doesn't share that atheistic viewpoint is expected to forego
RM> the spiritual part?
Because the program has many features that are beneficial, whether
one is religious or not. They offer after-school activities that
are character-building, companionship with one's age-peers in a
controlled environment, intellectually stimulating and interesting
activities, etc.
RM> At issue here is whether the organization has a right to have
RM> a spiritual component in its program at all. And, by
RM> extension, whether _any_ organization other than a church can
RM> maintain a spiritual component.
RM> I know, Boy Scouts has been playing down the spiritual
RM> component in recent years - in some groups it is essentially
RM> non-existent. That is because, as groups come from more and
RM> more mixed backgrounds, it becomes more and more difficult
RM> for volunteers to devise and execute a spiritual program that
RM> none of the different religions included in the group will
RM> find objectionable. The typical volunteer has no training in
RM> how to do this, and the typical reaction of the volunteers is
RM> to neglect that part of the program. But make no mistake, the
RM> charter specifically includes a spiritual component.
MB> it is a chartered membership organization
RM> So, could the B'Nai Brith be forced to accept Moslems?
MB> that receives money and accommodations from various
MB> government entities around the U.S.,
RM> This is a red herring. From what I saw in your previous post
RM> (which is all I have to go on), this issue did not enter into
RM> the judge's decision at all.
This battle has been ongoing for about a decade. The item I posted
is one "report" of one case history in one newsletter. Do you
expect the reporter to actually reiterate all the background that
went into the battle over the past ten years or more? I posted
that one report; that's all I intended to do. If you want the
entire history, hie thee to a library. I'm not your teacher.
RM> much that they would have accepted them if they thought that
RM> doing so would give the government control over the content
RM> of the program, or membership elegibility.
MB> including active pushing by the various school districts.
RM> Another red herring. The judge didn't comment on this either.
He had the history. He also has all prior testimony at his
disposal. He also has the entire content of the testimony that
went into this particular court case. Whether the reporter chose
to relate all the testimony, or just the part on which the
decision was actually based (in the reporter's estimation) is the
reporter's call. Why assume that just because it wasn't included
in an article that is meant to keep like-minded people up-to-date
that it didn't exist? It wasn't a court transcript; it was written
to people who keep posted on the gorey details, and have over the
last decade or more.
RM> OTOH, it may well be a legitimate complaint. If school
RM> districts should not be promoting anything with spiritual
RM> content, then they should not be promoting the Boy Scouts.
RM> But, your beef here is with the school district, not the BSA.
RM> The obvious solution is to stop the promotion, not to force
RM> the BSA to change its program or membership requirements.
People are free to attack such issues from whichever end they
choose. This particular AHA board member chose to attack the issue
from the BSA end. That was her call.
RM> I've got a feeling that this one will be reversed on appeal.
RM> Sounds like this court has made a mistake, and the nature of
RM> the mistake is one that even atheists should object to.
MB> Not at all. I think it'll end up in the Supreme Court before
MB> it's over, but I suspect that because they accept public
MB> accommodations and are openly pushed by the various school
MB> districts, they're in deep doo-doo. And, it's about time.
MB> They've gotten away with pushing religion in the public
MB> schools with impunity for far, far too long.
RM> Perhaps. But the acceptance of public funds, and any
RM> connection between the Scouts and the schools are separate
RM> issues, and were not the basis of the judgement as outlined
RM> in your previous post.
Not true. People who accept government money for public works
projects such as streets and sewers are obliged to follow certain
non-discriminatory practices, and if they don't, they are subject
to VERY stiff fines. I think the same principle applies quite
nicely in this case, since they are accepting public
accommodations of various kinds in their work.
RM> According to your post, the judge said that the atheists
RM> involved had been discriminated against because of their
RM> religious creed, contrary to the BSA charter. In that he was
RM> clearly wrong, unless one accepts that atheism is a religious
RM> creed.
Remember what I said about the First Amendment? It applies here.
RM> Take care.
you too.
... HolySmoke: A drive by shooting on the Information Superhighway.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Time for a chuckle or two
|Date: 27 Mar 96 18:59:24
EID:8f2f 207b9760
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 ad13f759
REPLY: 1:207/212 8e720775
On (25 Mar 96) Karen Davis wrote to Marilyn Burge...
KD> On (24 Mar 96) Marilyn Burge wrote to All...
MB> To: Multiple recipients of list SECHUM-L
KD> How can I subscribe to that list?
Search on "freethought.tamu.edu" You'll eventually reach
a home page for the Skeptic Tank. You'll find "lists" in
one of the boxes that you can choose (there are maybe 10
boxes altogether). When you click on "lists," you'll
find a bunch of them, including "inerrancy," and "atheism,"
along with instructions on how to subscribe.
... Bigot: won't think. Fool: Can't Think. Slave: dare not
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: MArk Staal
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: #smoke
|Date: 25 Mar 96 15:59:59
EID:f1b3 20797f60
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31595cc6
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
MS> ......Ummm, I found out what an IRC is...I never had to use it
MS> on AOL, just went right into a chat room from the main
MS> screen.....But, I think I got it now....
KDM> Glad to hear that. You aren't using AOL to access IRC, are you?
.....No, Aol doesn't have IRC yet, I'm using Pipeline
now....Still not quite used to it yet tho.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: MArk Staal
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: mark staal
|Date: 25 Mar 96 16:08:00
EID:89f5 20798100
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31595cc7
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to George Rudzinski <=-
KDM> @MSGID: 1:157/200 761403c9
KDM> GEORGE RUDZINSKI spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
GR> GR>When the going gets tough! Eliminate the opposition!
GR> GR>As Christianity has always done through it's long sordid history.
GR> GR>As their god has as evidenced in the OT.
GR>
GR> KDM> Shut the fuck up, George.
GR>
GR>Kevin,
GR>
GR>I never took orders very well in the military, I don't take orders
GR>from fundies and I'm not about to take them from you.
KDM> Fine, good. Take it as a recommendation, then.
GR>Pffft!! Go scare a fundie.
KDM> Certainly, but this is important for the same reason.
GR> If you'd said some of the same things to me
GR> KDM> you've said to Mark, I'd twit you too. I'm tempted to anyway
GR> KDM> as it is.
GR>
GR>Like I care? What is hateful about facing death in a responsible
GR>manner?
KDM> Two or three days after it happened? I've been in the same sort of
KDM> situation too, George, though the person involved did not die.
KDM> However, when it did happen, my thought was not for the dying, but
for
KDM> the living. That is what I'm upset about. Jim's grandfather is dead;
KDM> there is nothing we can do. We can, however, either comfort the
KDM> survivors, or, at the very least, not add to their burden.
GR>Do you want your kids to keep you alive in agony?
KDM> No, and I've made my will quite clear on that. I do not know what
KDM> happened with in this case, George, and I'm not going to make any
KDM> judgements until I do. I am going to get upset about your behavior,
KDM> however. Had you waited a month or two before saying something, I
KDM> would have made no comment.
KDM> Or are
GR>you too young and to realize that you will face death one day?
KDM> No, I'm quite aware of that, George.
KDM> Are
GR>you too young where you did not have to make choices for whether
GR>your parents should get another 2 months in bed suffering or to make
GR>the tough choice and say, "Enough is enough!"
KDM> I don't know, George. I don't know all the details of this case.
For
KDM> all I know, he wanted it that way.
GR>I've walked in Staal's shoes, I am qualified to speak out about the
GR>decisions that he made. And you notice he is keeping his trap shut
GR>about what was actually done. You know why? Because they finally
GR>said, "Enough is Enough!" And he knows it. And he knows it should
GR>have been done before all the suffering that was caused in an
GR>obviously hopeless situation.
KDM> How do you know all this, George? From what you and he have said,
you
KDM> stay far way from each other.
GR> KDM> Or would you like to explain why you can spew hatred and
GR> KDM> cruelty while Staal can't?
GR>
GR>Staal can spew whatever he wants. He isn't being cut off from access
GR>to FidoNet, I am. What part of that don't you understand?
KDM> Huh? where did this come from? I've made no comment about you
KDM> getting cut off of Fidonet; I wasn't even aware it was happening.
GR>And where have I ever advocated that a person not be allowed to
GR>speak?
KDM> See above. I've never said you shouldn't be allowed to. I am,
KDM> however, saying that you need to consider the feelings of the person
KDM> you are speaking to, just as Staal should have done.
GR>Better check your facts before you open your mouth. You know nothing
GR>of what is going on at my local level.
KDM> I've never said I did, George.
KDM> ... Oh sure! But what's the speed of dark?
KDM> * CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
KDM> -!- InterEcho 1.14
KDM> ! Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: #smoke
|Date: 27 Mar 96 14:56:44
EID:1ffe 207b7700
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31595ccc
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to David Worrell <=-
LB> @MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315641ec
LB> Lynda and David were killing time yakking about #smoke:
LB> you in IRC. If Jim can get access, too, you could put all sorts of
LB> suspicions to rest once and for all, simply by both you and Jim being
LB> present in #holysmoke at the same time. :)
DW> Really? Do you think Annette is a real person, too? :)
LB> (G) No, but I do think that the Staal Crew are incapable at this
LB> point of creating an Annette. And they have not yet appeared together.
....Ohhh, but yes we have, just ask Ferdie, You left right before
Jim came back on the other night...I think it was Saturday.....I had
trouble getting on to the same server that you were on...So jim left and
then I got on then he came back on....However, look for me and jim Wed.
and thur. 'bout 8:30 or so Pm.....
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Jon Vandenberg
|Date: 27 Mar 96 15:09:44
EID:8092 207b7920
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31595ccd
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to All <=-
GR> @MSGID: 1:382/804.0 3156a39f
-=> Quoting Jon Vandenberg to Dan Ceppa <=-
JV> -=| On 22 Mar 96 21:02, Dan Ceppa said: |=-
DC> . . . After all, access to BBS is not a right but a priviledge.
JV> Correct.
GR> Apparently only a Christian privilege.
DC> However, if you have not violated those rules in a particular area,
DC> then his conscience and his integrity are both warped.
JV> perhaps. . .
GR> Too bad Jon falls flat on his face with that perhaps.
DC> From the previous message you posted where your access was
DC> being cut, it was possibly because of Mark/Jim(whatever) Staal
DC> being annoyed with you.
JV> Our Net NEC is going to be moving out of state for school for a couple
JV> of years. (I think Glen has posted a little in this area) He is the
JV> only SysOp in our net that has allowed george ongoing BBS access in
JV> recent years.
GR> Jon fails to point out that I only accessed Fidonet from Glen. As all
GR> of you folks know, my point of origin has always been BCH.
JV> I haven't the time or inclination to trade barbs with george in this
JV> echo, or any other one.
GR> Yet this liar makes sure to try to cover his ass for booting me from
GR> his system for doing nothing more than accessing it.
GR> He is largely ignored in any of our local
JV> echos,
GR> Makes one wonder why he booted me? If I'm ignored, why did he boot
GR> me? I not only didn't post on his system, but I'm ignored. So why
GR> boot me?
GR> except when he catches someone new off guard. Even newbies
JV> catch on to him real quick.
GR> Too bad Jon can't back that up with any posts.
DC> If it was because of this Echo solely, it's outright censorship.
JV> "if you knew georgie, like I know georgie. . ."
JV> Enjoy him Dan. . . he fits in here. Kinda anyways. . . ;-)
GR> Too bad Jon doesn't understand that I'm not his to trade.
George, Why don't you just grow up and admit you were wrong in
what you said to me. You have no facts whatsoever to back anything you
said to me....You don't have a clue what happened... or what we did or
said....You're not a cook in the service anymore so quit serving up that
slop...I've already took into consideration that maybe you're still
stoned up from all those drugs you took while in the service and that
that may be why you're so disgruntled....So just "GET OVER IT".
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: Robert Pappas
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Friends
|Date: 27 Mar 96 19:58:00
EID:ca01 207b9f40
MSGID: 1:363/309 56f83b5e
PID: RA 2.02 8069
> Yes I do wonder why you don't like me and treat me so
> poorly!
> But I guess it is because you are faced with the truth and
> you do
> not like to hear the truth about God!
yawn...prove that god exists or shut the fuck up. i treat you poorly
because you like it. i wouldnt be surprised to see you dressed as
little bo peep begging men to spank you soundly...
> Yes why is it you would like Christians like myself to take
> there
> own lives? Robert you seem so frustrated with life! Why not
puhleeze! take your amatuer psychoanalysis back to the cracker jack
box from whence it came loser. you are as clueless as a blind lesbian
at the fish market.
> your running and face the truth, Jesus is here to stay and
> there is
> nothing you or satan can do about it. God wants us to spread
> the
> gospel and that is what I will do!
again you confuse me for someone that gives a shit. spread all the gospel
you want; you have freedom of speech as much as the next loser. just
dont whine when you catch flak. your martyr complex is as apparent as
a white guy at the million man march so keep on serving as an ez target
fundie...
> Robert I would suggest repenting while you still have time!
ok i repent to buddah and allah but dont want anything to do with that
fake jesus clown...
---
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|From: Jesus Christ
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: satan runs
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:10:00
EID:32aa 207ba140
MSGID: 1:363/309 56f83e4a
PID: RA 2.02 8069
> SD> No Brad...we just don't think that you're worth the time.
> Hello there, what ever you are.
> I do agree I am not worth the time of day, but the gospel I
> preach is not my own. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
bullshit; the goddamn apostles wrote that crap a hundred years after
i staged the crucifixion. i intended the entire thing to be a magic
trick primer but my intentions were lost over time. oh well; do you
want to watch me pull a rabbit out of the hat?
---
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|From: Robert Pappas
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:14:00
EID:2294 207ba1c0
MSGID: 1:363/309 56f83f40
PID: RA 2.02 8069
> I have to disagree with you here. Everything you do is
> pointless
> unless it is done for the Glory of God!
well i just got done having sex with a cat and did so this time shouting
out "this is done for the glory of god"...well...it didnt feel any
different from when i fucked the cat just for the hell of it...
---
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|From: Anonymous
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: For your info...
|Date: 27 Mar 96 21:36:08
EID:a7a5 207bac80
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 af1dc3c5
========================================================================
Forwarded here by Marilyn Burge (1:105/40.666)
========================================================================
Area: HOLYSMOKE
Date: 24 Mar 96 17:32:12 Public
From: David Worrell
To: Michael Hardy
Subject: determinsm & co.
========================================================================
22 Mar 96 08:09, Michael Hardy wrote to Norbert Sykes:
MH> Look at what John said:
JP>> There is that damn determinism aspect to this too. If your
JP>> god(s) are worthy of the title, they know the outcome of
JP>> everything. Outside my apartment is a large, slick, icy patch.
JP>> Your god(s) supposedly know if I will walk on it and slip on that
JP>> patch, but I don't. To them, the outcome is already known, and I
JP>> merely have the
MH> He uses the possessive pronoun "your." He's talking specifically
MH> about my beliefs; yet my belief is in God, not god(s). And in regard
MH> to those god(s), he uses the third-person plural throughout.
You've got 4 gods, Mikey. Just because you don't want to call 'em gods doesn't
mean they aren't. Maybe you wouldn't be suffering from this confusion if
you
Christians didn't try to use a job description as a name.
But then, whoever said Christians were intelligent?
MH> would hold up. But he's not -- he's talking about mine in particular,
MH> and intentionally misrepresenting it. (Or else not understanding it.)
Are you stupid enough to flatly deny that you have four gods, Mikey?
Would someone forward this to Hardly? Thanks.
---
+ Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
... ... Homo-fundiculi: A virus on the hard-drive of life.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Mike Carr
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 20 Mar 96 23:47:00
EID:a441 2074bde0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 28179979
REPLY: 1:284/120 73031104
PID: FM 2.02
>-> Why did such reports as this essentially cease coming out after World
>-> Mike?? Why do you have to dredge all the way back to 1908 to find a
>->
>-> WHY has there been NO recognized miracles since the early 1950's, Mike
Hmm
> m,
> Time becomes the critical measure. Is there widespread contempt for
> prior generations? I wonder why?
Because prior generations, especially during the Romantic Era (1700-1918),
were far too (1) beLIEving; (2) trusting; and (3) fast and loose with basic
facts to be trusted.
Moreover, the falling-off in confirmed miracles [sic] is NOT a conjecture
on my part, but a readily observed fact.
> Does time make any difference here,
> especially in the case of Madame Bire?
Yes, it does. I trust a bunch of violently Christian French from the Romantic
eras about as far as I can throw Pikes Peak unaided.
> Take a moment picture your
> last sunset or the first flowers of spring or the motion of your fingers
> responding to your thoughts and tell me again that miracles cannot happen.
Miracles do not and cannot happen. There is NO God to make them do so. The
universe in which we live operates by completely impersonal, fixed laws.
The motion of my hand, as well as the beautiful flowers of springtime, are
the result of millions of years of evolution and nothing more. The sunset
is no miracle, but a quite ordinary occurrence arising from orbital mechanics.
Not a God in any of it.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Better then This!
|Date: 27 Mar 96 21:28:09
EID:a2a0 207bab80
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 153537c9
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6457f645
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to All:
JJH> On Mar 24 07:53 96, Brad Jackson of 1:244/108 wrote:
BJ> Ok I was told by another person that he is a disciple of
BJ> satan. I think his name is (J.j. Hitt)
JJH> Oh dear... I think he's on to me...
How could he be? The guy didn't even capitalize your middle initial. He's
deluded!
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 27 Mar 96 00:05:09
EID:fd80 207b00a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315a328d
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
LYNDA and DAVID were killing time yakking about Bible Verses:
>AG> I also pastor a tiny Church,
LB> Congregation of one?
DR> Yes. And even then his congregation theologically disagrees
DR> with itself.
I HATE it when that happens!
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Ethics is not necessarily the handmaiden of theology.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Better then This!
|Date: 28 Mar 96 02:52:29
EID:c0eb 207c1680
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315a328e
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6457f645
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
All and J.J. were killing time yakking about Better then This!:
BJ> Ok I was told by another person that he is a disciple of
BJ> satan. I think his name is (J.j. Hitt) but I am not sure of
BJ> his address.
JH> Oh dear... I think he's on to me...
Well, no WONDER Asmodeus' curse didn't work!
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Quick! Pick a letter from 1 to 1000.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: SPONG ON THE HERESY TRIAL
|Date: 28 Mar 96 03:03:04
EID:140d 207c1860
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315a328f
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Kevin and Dennis were killing time yakking about SPONG ON THE HERESY TRIAL:
KDM> I know little about Spong, but I think I'd like him.
DH> Only if you like someone that says one thing, and does another,
DH> although I thought that this was most detestable to devout Christians
DH> and Atheists alike.
Kindly explain what you see Spong DOING that is different from what he is
SAYING...I suspect you know very little about either his words OR actions.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... She thanks you kindly, turns away
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: [1/2] [1/2] Tithe [2]
|Date: 28 Mar 96 01:03:00
EID:10ce aa0160f0
MSGID: 1:206/2720 2c00bede
REPLY: 1:207/212 2a490520
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> JG> And who decides what a "fair wage" is. There is a lot of talk about
> JG> selfish "athletes" like Wayne Gretzky who get paid millions of
> JG> dollars a year. They want a "salary cap" Now if you put a salary
cap
> JG> on these
> JG> athletes, and each of them on the team for example made $1million
> JG> dollars less, where would that money go ? To one greedy little owner
> JG> who would then have an extra 20million bucks to stick in his own
> JG> pocket. Now when wayne gretzky was traded to los angelos, the kings
> JG> made so much more money that Gretzky was voluntarily given a raise.
> JG> It was directly as a result of gretzky coming to L.A. that made
that
> JG> extra $10million so why shouldnt he get it ?
> No, the owner wouldn't get it, the PEOPLE would get it
> by not having to
> pay for continually higher ticket prices.
Unlikely. The owner will charge what the market will bear. Nonetheless,
I am personally in favor of salary caps, for another reason. By lowering
the minimum cost of operating a pro team, a salary cap can have the effect
of making possible the proliferation of small-market teams, teams in areas
that couldn't support pro sports at current player salaries. IMHO, the
more teams, the better. I find it scandalous, for example, that Minnesota
currently lacks a pro hockey team; such an appalling situation could not
have lasted this long if it weren't so expensive to operate a team, and
thus so difficult to find people willing to invest in the operation.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: evil
|Date: 28 Mar 96 01:23:01
EID:10ce aa0160f1
MSGID: 1:206/2720 2c00bee0
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 894C4388
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> In a larger sense, God did make evil possible -- by
> creating you and me
> with the freedom to commit evil if we choose. In
> another sense, God
> defines evil. This is so because God's being defines
> good, which
> simultaneously defines evil as the perversion or
> absence of what is
> good -- of what is of God.
> But Robby, God did NOT "create evil" in the sense of
> making evil
> necessary or inevitable. Created beings who have used
> their freedom
> poorly have done that.
Let me run a little argument from the late great J. L. Mackie* past you,
to see what you think of it.
1: God is omnipotent. (by definition)
2: God can bring about any state of affairs which is logically possible.
(follows from omnipotence. Indeed, there are those who think omnipotence
enables the logically impossible, but that's another matter).
3: It is logically possible for a person with free will to always do good.
(otherwise, it wouldn't really be freedom, would it? If the person had
to choose evil at any point, his choice would apparently not be free.)
4: Further, no contradiction arises if one describes a world in which everyone
who ever lives is like the person in 3. The existence of one such person
does not seem in any way to rule out the possibility of the existence of
another such person.
5: Thus, to clarify point 4, it is logically possible for there to be a
world populated with lots of free beings who never do any evil. Call this
world Utopia.
6: God could have created Utopia (from 2 and 5), instead of the world we
live in.
Now, given the blazingly obvious fact that Utopia would be better than the
world we live in, Mackie asked how God could possibly weasel out of being
morally blameworthy for creating our world instead of Utopia.
* The argument appears in _The Miracle of Theism_, perhaps the best work
on philosophy of religion to be written in this century, and the last book
Mackie wrote before his somewhat untimely death. Probably God was punishing
him for fighting so skillfully on the side of unbelief. Or perhaps Mackie
planned it that way; David Hume's last book was also on the philosophy of
religion (_Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion_, published posthumously
by his nephew), and Hume was certainly an inspiration to Mackie (the title
of Mackie's book was surely inspired by Hume's essay "Of Miracles"), so
perhaps Mackie was just trying to imitate Hume on that point as well.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: isms
|Date: 28 Mar 96 01:28:02
EID:10ce aa0160f2
MSGID: 1:206/2720 2c00bee1
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 894C4389
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> In some cases, it's because what the atheist sees as
> an -ism is simply
> the theist holding to a moral standard. Affirming
> that homosexual
> practice is sin is "homophobia" -- bigotry -- in the
> mind of someone
> who discards Judeo-Christian sexual morality.
> The idea that anything is "sin" is anathema to the
> heathen. Rather than
> suck up to them by proudly declaring my great
> "tolerance" of what the
> Bible calls sin, I prefer to call sin what it is --
> evil -- and get
> about preaching the good news of repentance and
> forgiveness.
"Sin" is of course a non-concept to an unbeliever, but to infer from this
that to an unbeliever there is no evil is a gross fallacy. The typical
atheist sees Christian morality as unacceptable because on his standards,
what the Christian advocates is evil, not because there is no evil on his
standards. We also tend to doubt the value of repentence and forgiveness,
or at least I do; I tend to favor fixing the problem and preventing it from
happening again.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: [1/2] Re: Tithe
|Date: 27 Mar 96 21:52:00
EID:c0c6 207bae80
MSGID: 1:215/130 000129d3
I didn't see your original post to me. This I got from Jim Germiquet reply
to you.
In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Katherine Wintersnight:
KW> Elliott, if you had taken the time and trouble to have read (and
KW> quoted) that passage in context it would have been obvious even to yo
KW> that the subject under discussion was charities (such as those pushed
KW> by TV evangelists) that were designed mostly to line the pockets of
t
No that is not what you said. Your text in its entirety:
KW> So if you got rid of TV you would get rid of
KW> the evil? I don't think so, Richard. The
KW> church (under whatever name) has been
KW> enriching itself all along. Take a look at
KW> the cathedrals of Europe. At the local
KW> churches rearing their beautiful rooflines
KW> proud against the sky. Then look at the
KW> homeless and mentally ill huddled under the
KW> overpasses (did you know that once bishops
KW> had a terrible time with the unsightly poor
KW> sheltering between the buttresses of
KW> cathedrals?). That's not TV, Richard, that's
KW> real life. Find out how much your preachers
KW> robes and suit cost, what the price of the
KW> choir stalls was, the printers bill for the
KW> programs...
KW>
KW> Then find out how many hungry children that
KW> exercise in pride would have fed. If you
KW> belong to one of the really fancy
KW> denominations, this will horrify you. Do you
KW> have any idea how much a silver chalice to
KW> serve up your god's blood costs?
KW>
RM>btw: I know of some preachers who were
RM>independently wealthy before becoming
RM>a
RM>preacher... I think that's kind of neat in
RM>it's own right.
KW>
KW> Richard, I don't contest that there are a few
KW> good men there. But the plate passing for
KW> man's pride just doesn't sit well with me.
----
Whether or not you were discussing "charities" (even though you never once
"specifically" used the words charity, charities, etc in your post, and
the _SUBJECT_ header says "tithe") has nothing to do with the question I
asked you - the one you were unable or unwilling to answer.
Anyway since you accuse me of intentionally altering the meaning of your
words by removing them from their context (oh and spare me from the dodge
that you didn't "specifically" say this. If that isn't what you meant then
state *precisely* what you did mean) it seems appropriate to compare what
you said against what I quoted:
KW> Find out how much your preachers robes and
KW> suit cost, what the price of the choir stalls
KW> was, the printers bill for the programs...
KW>
KW> Then find out how many hungry children that
KW> exercise in pride would have fed. If you
KW> belong to one of the really fancy
KW> denominations, this will horrify you. Do you
KW> have any idea how much a silver chalice to
KW> serve up your god's blood costs?
--------------
As can be seen, my abridgment of your words didn't change your meaning at
all.
KW> Saying that their priorities are one thing, then acting in a totally
KW> different manner ...
You have yet to demonstrate that anyone has acted in a manner "totally
different" from their stated priorities. A case could easily be made that
"they" act in a manner "totally different" to some key Biblical teachings,
but that isn't what you claim here, is it?
KW> ...makes them fair game in my book.
Perhaps, but why didn't you answer my question then? Here it is again:
EF>What are you saying here? That people have a
EF>right to decide what another groups priorities are?
Is that what you mean by fair game?
KW> Selectivity editing
KW> my post to give yourself a target
Selectivity editing? Target? Hahahahaha. Sorry my simple question got you
so flustered (too flustered even to answer it). However please re-read
your quoted words above. Then demonstrate your unsupported accusation of
selective editing is true.
KW> makes you fair game in my book, also.
Gosh! Whatever shall I do??
KW> This tends to make your live and let live stance look a bit,
KW> shall we say, hypocritical.
Even assuming your premise were true this is inane. Since your premise is
demonstrably untrue, it makes your accusation doubly vacant.
Personally, I count as hypocritical those who offer up fact-free
allegations while looking down their nose at fundamentalists for doing the
same thing.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 2
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity const
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:40:00
EID:87ab 207bb500
MSGID: 1:215/130 000129de
In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Kevin D.:
JG>you have about as
much proof of where your "big bang" came from as I have of where
JG>"god" came from.
Jim, you are wholly unqualified to make this judgment.
JG>You little religion is also based on faith. Some nothingness magician
JG>waved a nothingness wand and a "big bang" occured and flowers and
JG>rabbits started jumping out of hats 4.5 billion years later.
Phew! Jim, Jim Jim. Not wanting to immediately assume conscious distortion
on your part, I have to tell you, you display a considerable knowledge gap
regarding science in general, and about scientific theory and the Big Bang
in particular.
Calling science a religion is ludicrous. The scientific method is
_precisely_ the polar opposite of religious dogma.
KDM> Hold it; let me get this straight: are you claiming that everything
KDM> must have a designer?
JG> I never said everything must have a
JG> "designer". But from what we know of
JG> evolution and life, all life forms evolved
JG> from a previous life form.
JG>
JG> We are on dangerous ground when we come to
JG> that wall of where the very first life form
JG> came from.
Who is on dangerous ground? Science has no established _theory_ on the
origins of life. The _hypothesis'_ advanced by science regarding origins
do not have the factual support required of full fledged scientific
theories such as those on evolution, electricity, gravity, for instance.
Science never pretended otherwise. It is Christians bearing false witness
who would attempt to put such untrue and absurd claims in the mouths of
scientists.
JG> From what we know about science, Energy cannot be
JG> created or destroyed,
What does that have to do with anything? The beginning of life does not
demand the creation or destruction of energy!
JG> sure there are some wonderful theories beyond
JG> that, but I hardly think we have come to a
JG> point where we can positively identify that
JG> something can come from nothing.
Jim you don't know what you are talking about. Also you keep jumping back
and forth, without notice, between the origin of the universe and the
origin of life - which, in science, are two quite distinct occurrences.
It seems you are trying to say that the conservation of energy principle
precludes the Big Bang. If that were true, don't you think it might have
been noticed by someone - besides you - by now? You aren't claiming that
your lack of scientific knowledge gives you special powers of insight, not
accorded those who have spent their professional lives in scientific
research, are you?
The point is, you obviously never bothered to find out what science says
regarding the Big Bang and the conservation of energy principle.
Now isn't it just the slightest bit possible that sound scientific reasons
exist why one does not preclude the other? Hint: try to find a scientist
in the applicable field who says "something can come from nothing."
Those are your words, not science's. You would do well to discover what
science actually says before attacking:
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and
shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
JG> SO when you come to those two particular
JG> areas that are based solely on theory, then
JG> science becomes simply another religion based
JG> on having FAITH that these theories are
JG> indeed accurate.
Incorrect and obviously so. you seem to believe that scientific theories
are the equivalent of educated hunches and guesswork. Scientific theories
are based on accumulated facts, evidence, testing, and the accuracy of the
predictions they make. Because science doesn't pretend to have, or ever
expects to have, complete knowledge, scientific theories never "graduate"
to some transcendent state of ultimate "Truth." (Yet that is EXACTLY what
most religions claim to have).
Scientists don't have "faith" in theories - by definition. "Faith" is
strong belief without evidence, which excludes it from applying to
theories. Theories must have [strong] evidence.
Science cannot know if the laws of physics will always be in effect. There
is no logical way such a blanket assertion can be made. Science has
confidence - not faith - the laws of physics will continue as they are for
the foreseeable future, but they don't claim to know they absolutely will.
That _WOULD_ be an act of faith.
Aanother major difference between science and religion is that science
must reject entirely revealed truth and assertions by "authorities." Such
things demand belief without tangible evidence (faith) Theories must stand
or fall based on available evidence for or against them.
JG> But it still remains that whatever exists, came from
JG> somewhere.
You believe God exists, don't you? Where did he come from?
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: [1/2] Re: Tithe
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:40:00
EID:72a9 207bb500
MSGID: 1:215/130 000129ea
In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Katherine Wintersnight:
JG> The point is that yes we have hungry people.
JG> SHould we then sell all the artifacts in our
JG> museums, and open them up as hostels ? Should
JG> we take all the money from scientific groups
JG> trying to find dinosaur bones for our
JG> museums, and use it to feed hungry people ?
JG> Should we as people, or institutions or
JG> churches, give away all our money to the poor
JG> and become poor ourselves, and unable to help
JG> anyone else ?
Museums, scientific groups? No. But should churches? You tell me:
"All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would
sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as
any had need." -- Acts 2:44-45
And Jesus said:
"Do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what
you will put on." -- Luke 12:22
"Sell what you have and give alms." -- Luke 12:33
"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath,
he cannot be my disciple." -- Luke 14:33
"You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the
poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." -- Luke
18:22
------
JG> People who give money to their church, are
JG> certainly helping the poor that those
JG> churches support. But that money also pays
JG> the rent for that church. It pays to keep it
JG> clean. It pays to make it look beautiful. How
JG> much nicer is it to be in a church with a
JG> choir dressed in blue robes instead of ragged
JG> shirts and blue jeans. And these people pay
JG> for this priviledge.
Ok, I'll buy the reasoning behind this. It's sensible. But Jesus taught
something quite different and not so sensible: Besides things like loving
your enemies, blessing those who curse you, and turning the other cheek,
he said to give what you have to any - and every - one who asks of you.
Don't accept repayment. If someone takes your cloak, give him your tunic
also. Sublime concepts and very difficult to practice. No doubt it is the
reason so few "Christians" offer up more than lip service to them.
JG> Just as you might pay to have a nice house or
JG> apartment to live in, instead of a rundown
JG> ramshackle shack. SHould you sell your nice
JG> house or move to a cheaper apartment so that
JG> you can give all that extra money to the poor
JG> ? No... you take a portion of your money, and
JG> you use it to help those less fortunate, you
JG> do not become poor yourself to do so.
JG>The same with churches.
Fine. Now reconcile this with what Jesus said to do - over and over again.
I don't think you can without making a mockery of the Gospels.
JG> They should strive to set an example of what
JG> serving god can provide for us.
From this concept it is but a tiny leap to using wealth (or its lack) as
a
gauge of one's righteousness (or its absence). Robber barons typically did
this to justify their wealth.
JG> The more you are given and have, the more you can give others.
Show me where Jesus said, or even hinted at, this.
JG>Or would you suggest that presidents of religious tv stations should
not
JG>be paid just like the presidents of any secular tv station expect to
be
JG>paid?
KW> Jimmy boy, that is exactly what I am suggesting. That the presidents
KW> of religious tv stations are just like their less 'godly'
counterparts.
JG> I think that is terribly unfair.
Unfair? So what? Tell me what is fair about being expected to love those
who hate you? Or to also give your shirt to the person who took your coat,
etc. Are you going to tell Jesus how unfair these things are?
JG>In fact it is Un Christian
Scriptural justification for this conclusion please.
JG>and probably even Un American
JG> and a bit communistic.
Communistic? Exactly. Just like in the previously quoted Acts (2:44-45)
where the apostles, along with "all who believed," practiced communal
ownership of all possessions, distributing them according to individual
need. Pure communism, in other words.
JG> People should be payed on an equal basis for
JG> the work performed. A Christian should not
JG> have to work at the same job as a non
JG> christian and then get paid less.
Ah but, "...who is greater, he who sits at the table or he who serves?"
Christians aren't supposed to be concerned with such worldly things. "No
servant can serve two masters."
Jesus said not to worry where your next meal comes from: "Consider the
ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor
barn; and God feeds them."
JG> If you use that kind of logic. Then a non
JG> christian getting paid minimum wage, working
JG> alongside a christian would be forcing that
JG> christian to work for less' than the minimum
JG> wage.
False comparison. A network president descending from the stratosphere of
a multi-million dollar salary to some realistic wage - one that most
people have to make do with - bears no relationship to your minimum wage
analogy.
JG> Those presidents of christian tv stations
JG> perform a service and get paid accordingly,
JG> but at least, they are paid by the people who
JG> are using that service.
JG>
JG> I may hate NBC, and never watch it. But you
JG> know something, I STILL have to pay for it !
JG> You know why ? Because everytime I buy a Ford
JG> product, or a can of Coca cola or Pepsi Cola,
JG> or a tube of toothpaste, Some of MY money
JG> goes to NBC in the form of advertising money.
JG>
JG> On the other hand if you dont like Pat
JG> Robertson, you dont have to pay for his
JG> product !
Baloney! You don't think his network has commercials? Come on man. Look
before you make these silly ad hoc leaps.
JG>Not only that, but Mr Robertson is
JG> also a HOST, so he should get even MORE money
JG> than the president of NBC.
I guess that means you believe that JC _would_ wear a Rolex.
JG> And he isn't stealing it out of the pockets
JG> of people who hate his station either.
Hint: tossing out hyperbole ("...*stealing* it out of the pockets...")
tends to damage one's credibility.
JG>Are all religious people suppose to dress in sack cloth and ashes and
JG>eat bread and water and give the rest of the money to the poor ?
KW> Ask Jesus. It seems to me that he had some definite opinions on the
KW> subject. If you wish to worship in a whited sepulchre, and wear both
KW> of your coats at once, it's between you and him.
JG> Jesus was Jesus. He did what was God's
JG> purpose for him. No one else is Jesus. Some
JG> people may choose to do the same kind of
JG> missionary work, with just the clothes on
JG> their back and nothing else.
Interesting. JC said: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which
is in heaven is perfect." -- Matthew 5:48
What does he mean by "perfect?" ".... If thou wilt be perfect, go [and]
sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure
in
heaven: and come [and] follow me." -- Matthew 19:21
Looks pretty unequivocal to me. Deny it if you wish. But JC's response to
that attitude would likely be:
"Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
-- Luke 6:46
or
"... Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,' These people draw near
to me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, But their heart is
far away from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines
the precepts of men.' " -- Matt. 15:7-9
JG> Others may choose to be more like Solomon who
JG> was a great man of god and yet one of the
JG> most wealthiest men that ever lived.
Not only was Solomon rich, I hear he also had a few extra wives. Therefore
polygamy must be ok too, right?
Heck, as long as we are using Old Testament role models, can we assume it
is likewise ok to commit murder like Moses and King David? How about
adultery (David again - God's favorite)? Acceptable behavior?
Again I think you have forwarded an argument in haste. You see, most of
the Christians around here have learned, through bitter experience, to put
as much distance as possible between themselves and the Old Testament.
JG> Wealth is not a judge of how godly you are,
JG> with the poorest person being the most
JG> righteous and the wealthiest person being the
JG> biggest sinner.
Ho-boy. Let's see what the Bible says:
"But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation."
-- Luke 6:24
"They that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many
foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and
perdition..."
-- I Timothy 6:9
"He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that
loveth abundance with increase: this [is] also vanity."
--Ecclesiastes 5:10
"He that hasteth to be rich [hath] an evil eye, and considereth not that
poverty shall come upon him." -- Proverbs 28:22
"There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: [there is] that
maketh himself poor, yet [hath] great riches. The ransom of a man's life
[are] his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke."
-- Proverbs 13:7-8
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich
man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven."
--Matthew 19:23
"And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth
again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust
in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to
go
through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom
of God."
--Mark 10:24-25
Clear enough?
JG> It seems to me that you are crying, that
JG> because the churches are rich, they are
JG> godless or evil.
She didn't say this at all.
JG> All my replying here has been to point out
JG> that I disagree with such a general idea
Yes, this is the conclusion on which you base your facts.
JG> I will now QUOTE one simple example of what I
JG> am hearing you say above " vanity of
JG> worshipping in rich fancy churches when
JG> people are going hungry" ....vanity ??? You
JG> throw around judgements as if you were god
JG> with the authority to decide who is vain and
JG> worthy of hellfire.
You mean only Christians are allowed to pass judgment, Jim? Your posts
contain many judgments and conclusions. True, they seem to be less
negative than KW's, but judgments they are, nonetheless.
JG> You do not even know these people that you
JG> would summarily cast into the fires of hell,
JG> based on the fancy church they happen to
JG> worrship God in.
Ah I think you are confused. Hell is one of your beliefs.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:40:00
EID:0fad 207bb500
MSGID: 1:215/130 000129f3
In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Dan Ceppa:
JG> I agree that religion itself has no place in
JG> politics or law, but
JG> such religious ideals as thou shalt not
JG> Kill, Steal, Bear False
JG> witness etc I would not consider out of
JG> place in the constitution :-)
JG>
JG> the ten commandments should be enshrined in
JG> the constitution :-) [..]
Do the smiley faces denote frivolity? I hope so. If, however, you are
serious I must ask: why on earth do you want the T C in the Constitution
-
the supreme law of the land - if not to make them legally binding?
I notice, also, you only got around to mentioning the most socially
universal of the commandments: no killing, stealing, lying. How about the
other, truly religious ones such as, no other gods, graven images, God's
name in vain, keeping the Sabbath, etc?
Well regardless, the point is moot. About half of God's top ten are
patiently UN-constitutional, and thus Un-American, on their face. One
through four violate the First Amendment and number 10 is anti-capitalist
(and thus to most people, un-american).
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Your various replies
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:40:00
EID:9165 207bb500
MSGID: 1:215/130 000129fc
LB> I don't think you need to get so angry about it.
LB> God IS spiritual, but evidence of Him is all around
LB> us, the earth, the plants, the stars, the sun, Etc.
RB>Snakes, spiders, viruses, bacteria, poisons, etc...
LB> For example, 4 years ago I broke a bone in my foot.
LB> It was x-rayed and no less than three doctors stated
LB> it was broken. Yet three days later another x-ray
LB> was taken and there was no brake or even bruising.
LB> Now, x-rays and doctor reports exist on this, but it
LB> is again hard to believe.
RB> It's hard to believe God would bother mending your
RB> broken foot while millions of children go starving.
------
AS> Or...and here's another tack...if one's mind is
AS> determined by physical laws and processes, then, by
AS> definition, there is no reason to trust the reason
AS> the mind produces. As a mere byproduct of natural
AS> processes,
AS> IF your view is right, and our reason
AS> is nothing but the product of natural lawm, then it
AS> is merely a Skinnerian box with no real reason...to
AS> trust our reason.
RB> If our reason is suspect concerning things mundane,
RB> then wouldn't it be even less reliable concerning
RB> things extraordinary?
--------
AS> Why is believing in a Resurrection intellectually
AS> dishonest? I have never said DISBELIEVING in one is
AS> intellectually dishonest. If there is a Designer of
AS> the laws of nature, why can He not set them aside at
AS> will.
RB> There is no other comparable historical event that
RB> you would accept so readily. The event is
RB> irrevocably connected to your chosen beliefs.
RB> Therefore, THIS incredible tale is reasonable.
-----
Looks like somebody has been drinking their Squelch's Grape Juice. Three
for three, to the point, and devastating. Well done old bean.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: All
|Sub: Hardy's Standard Lip-serv
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:40:00
EID:c161 207bb500
MSGID: 1:215/130 00012a0e
-=> Quoting 3b1e4a59cf to Michael Hardy <=-
> MH> I believe atheists may well choose standards to live by. But I
> MH> also believe they have no reason to, other than their own
> MH>comfort and satisfaction.
> MH> If an atheist wants to be giving
> MH> and generous, there's no reason he can't.
Oh brother!! Leave it to Mike Hardy to give atheists selfish motives
("their own comfort and satisfaction") for voluntary, unselfish behavior!
And I suppose that Christians, under duress to behave (or go to hell)
represent the true moral ideal. Wow.
> MH> But if he wants to
> MH> be selfish and dishonest, there's no reason he shouldn't.
> MH> You may disagree with his decisions, but there is no higher
> MH> standard to judge him by.
> MG> Then why are selfish and dishonest persons in chruch every Sunday?
> MG> Are they atheists?
3b> Having your "higher standard" to judge by either matters or it
3b> doesn't.
3b> Surely you're not denying that there are selfish and dishonest people
3b> in Churches every Sunday.
MH> No, I'm not denying that. However, it wasn't the
MH> point. Christians have
MH> a standard to strive for.
Really? Please submit this Christian standard - the one that all
Christian sects agree with. The fact is, there is very little that all
Christians agree with among themselves including your unnamed standards.
Some partially accept Old Testament law, some accept all of it, some
reject all of it. All Christian sects pick and choose what New Testament
teachings they will embrace, and the relative importance they give those
they accept.
MH> We can say that those selfish and dishonest
MH> persons are morally wrong to be selfish and
MH> dishonest because we have a
MH> standard that advocates generosity and integrity.
Like to see some stats on how these "standards" affect Christian behavior,
relative to non-christians? Or is the lip service paid to morality by
Christians the limit of your concern?
MH> Atheists, I maintain, cannot do the same, as
MH> atheists have no
MH> single moral ideal.
Well, taking a page from your Christian rules of illogic, I can say that
atheists DO indeed have a single moral ideal. Those that don't, or act
like they don't, aren't "true" atheists, you see. I know this since I am
a
true atheist.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 27 Mar 96 22:40:00
EID:22c4 207bb500
MSGID: 1:215/130 00012a17
RH> And why was death the result? Did not God decide that? Worse, did not
RH> God know in advance that Eve would decide to eat?
AS> Yes. But of course, free will means nothing if you
AS> have nothing to turn TO. You don't have free will in a
AS> narrow hall with one door.
But it isn't an either/or proposition. For instance if your god knows the
future he knows, prior to his creation of each human, whether that person
will _FREELY_ choose to obey or not. It would in no way deny free will for
God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would choose sin. He
simply creates only those people who he knows will _freely_ choose the
religiously correct path.
AS> As for
AS> whether God knew beforehand, I'm not sure. Does God
AS> only see one future,
AS> narrowly defined, or does He see several possible
AS> futures, depending on
AS> our choices?
If he sees "several possible futures" then obviously he doesn't know which
will transpire and thus he is not omniscient. If he _does_ know which will
occur then the future must be set in stone. There is no way around this.
RH> And why cannot we repent AFTER death, when we have the information we
RH> needed to make a better choice?
AS> And do what?
AS> If Hitler repents after death, does that help those
AS> he killed in life?
How would it help them if Hitler repented 5 minutes before death? Yet the
way I understand it, your god _would_ accept Hitler's sincere contrition
at that point without regard to helping "those he killed in life".
AS> Can he show his repentence is more than empty
AS> words?
"Show" whom? I thought your god was privy to everyone's innermost
thoughts.
AS> Can he do any good
AS> works that will amend what happened?
Likewise, could he do sufficient good works 5 minutes before death?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
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SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 215/130 200 705 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Love of God
|Date: 26 Mar 96 19:38:32
EID:0560 207a9cc0
MSGID: 1:207/212 a1537646
On (23 Mar 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Karen Davis...
BJ> Yes at times I can become farely busy. But I am back to spread
BJ> the word of God to you once more, like he commanded us to do.
BJ> What would you like to know about Karen?
BJ> Lets start with:
I'd like to know how you can be sure it is the "word of God."
BJ> Acts 2:36-42 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
BJ> that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both
BJ> Lord and Christ.
Brad, how do you justify this with your opposition to the Trinity? How
can God make himself?
... "I see you shiver with antici... pation!"
--- PPoint 1.98
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PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Hello! [2]
|Date: 26 Mar 96 19:39:50
EID:793e 207a9ce0
MSGID: 1:207/212 fc85bb56
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 644ac4b7
On (25 Mar 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Karen Davis...
JH> Macabee is a five pound can of King James Nuts (psalted).
Chuckle...
... A library is an arsenal of liberty.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 26 Mar 96 19:47:11
EID:135f 207a9de0
MSGID: 1:207/212 4807448d
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 31577D45
On (25 Mar 96) Jerry Gilbreath wrote to Shelby Sherman...
JG> A close study will show that reality matches up with biblical
JG> accounts quite well. I am not sure what you mean by "science",
JG> but a lot of people mean "theories". You may be suprised to
JG> know that the "scientific" theory of evolution, for example has
JG> no support apart from more theories (no evidence). The Genesis
JG> account, however, has literally millions of tons of evidence
JG> (not just theories). I am referring to the hundreds of feet of
JG> sediment all over the world, even on mountain tops.
Jerry... you've got it 180 degrees turned around.
There is TONS of evidence for evolution. And actual evidence DISPROVING
the Bible, particularly the accounts of creation and the Noachian flood.
... If it WALKS out of your refrigerator, LET IT GO!!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 27 Mar 96 08:58:43
EID:bb1b 207b4740
MSGID: 1:207/212 0a588c8e
REPLY: 3:711/933 3150e442
On (21 Mar 96) Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote to John Brawley...
AG> Genesis 1:11 tells us that God's law of reproduction stipulates
AG> everything bring forth of its own kind. So unless there is some
AG> perversion, Adam as a
AG> Son of God - the only one at that time, could only bring forth another
AG> son of God. Cain was neither a son of Adam nor a son of God.
Genesis 4:1
The man lay with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth
to Cain.
That pretty clearly states that Cain is Adam's son.
AG> Precisely, according to cretins. But those of faith who read their
AG> Bible know that the majority of people in this world are unrelated to
AG> Adam and therefore have no Kinsman Redeemer.
Those who read the Bible realize you're full of .....
... Heck is a place for people who don't believe in Gosh.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Bible Verses 1/2
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:00:47
EID:1ba0 207b4800
MSGID: 1:207/212 4651e78b
REPLY: 3:711/933 3150e9c9
On (21 Mar 96) Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote to Kelsey Bjarnason...
AG> I can't furnish the answers to all of your objections and do not have
AG> time to seek for the answers. One thing I will say is that you have
AG> intermixed the lineage of Cain with that of Abel (or Seth). You can't
AG> do that because the father of Cain was the Serpent whilst the father
AG> of Seth was Adam.
Genesis 4:1, again. Cain's father was Adam.
AG> Differences in spelling are not contradictions. And you cannot dispute
AG> the line of Jesus traced through (as I understand) Mary and Joseph as
AG> the line of your parents are probably quite distinct.
If God was Jesus' father, or Jesus *was* God, immaculately conceived,
why bother using Joseph's lineage at all?
KB> **** Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson
KB> was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36
AG> There is no contradiction here, just don't be lazy. Do some reading
AG> and find out what it is saying.
Huh? One's grandson and son are 2 different people, thus a
contradiction.
... "On a night out..." -- The Criminologist
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: ma teresa
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:04:53
EID:2f9f 207b4880
MSGID: 1:207/212 067bed83
REPLY: 3:711/933 3155addb
On (24 Mar 96) Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote to Sean McCullough...
AG> Really? Then Adolf Hitler was a Christian, and so were the Popes of
AG> Rome.
YUP!
... Forrest Limbaugh.......With Chocolate on Loan from God!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 27 Mar 96 17:18:09
EID:079d 207b8a40
MSGID: 1:207/212 6873aeef
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 3156c287
On (25 Mar 96) Lee Woofenden wrote to Al Schroeder...
LW> If there's one thing I've learned here on HolySmoke, it's that
LW> atheists can be just as intolerant as fundamentalist religionists. It
LW> may sound odd, but this was a surprise to me. I somehow thought that
LW> being without religion, atheists would not have a basis for the
LW> prejudice against those who don't agree with them that is so
LW> characteristic of fundamentalists of all stripes. I was wrong. _Way_
LW> wrong. That is a valuable lesson for me.
It comes from being put down and having the very word for your belief
system turned into a dirty word. It comes from being blamed for all the
evils of the world with absolutely no cause.
... Not a real tagline, but an incredible soy substitute.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: What is a religion?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 18:38:52
EID:ce6d 207b94c0
MSGID: 1:207/212 b379700f
On (24 Mar 96) Dennis Hall wrote to Ryan Shaw...
DH> Atheism asserts that there is no God (god). Atheists must believe that
DH> this is true, so I would personally give them the same status as one
DH> who believes in Buddha, Satan, or any god.
DH> Atheists do have faith.
No, they don't believe in god. Major difference.
I don't believe in Santa Claus. It doesn't take any faith to recognize
that he doesn't exist.
... Try being polite to your enemies ... drives `em nuts!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: FAITH of the Atheist
|Date: 27 Mar 96 18:39:52
EID:1573 207b94e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 e5809022
On (25 Mar 96) Dennis Hall wrote to Tom Hart...
DH> Uhh...heh heh... Like, Uh... Santa Clause is less fictional than you
DH> think. If you want evidence, I can only refer you to names and places
DH> in history. Yet, you do not know that my name is Dennis Hall, because
DH> you have no real evidence. Please consider that the absence of
DH> physical evidence does not disprove anything.
Yes, the legend of Santa Claus, which is now developed to a chubby man
who lives in the North Pole and comes down Chimneys on 12/24 or 12/25,
has some basis in probably factual events of bishop who was very
generous. However, he died at least a thousand years ago and is in no
way responsible for the presents under our trees.
It takes no faith to see that presents are bought by people for other
people and that the Santa Claus legend is used because our culture seems
to have difficulty just handing things to other people [this same
difficulty leads to us wrapping presents]. The faith is ENTIRELY on the
part of the believers.
Yes, to accept your name as Dennis Hall takes a small amount of faith.
But since the assertion of your name is a very minor issue and is
mundane [Dennis Hall is most certainly the name of some man in some
English speaking country somewhere, probably many men and boys] it is a
miniscule amount. So little it is irrelevant. What would be comparable
to the idiocy of religion is if you claimed to be an artificial
intelligence program writing these messages. Since we have no evidence
of any such program existing which could write messages, it would take
mega faith to believe that.
DH> The agnostic's position is much more honest than the atheist's. The
DH> atheist asserts that God does not exist [This DOES take faith]. The
DH> agnostic has no faith, but asserts nothing.
It takes no faith to assert that which is unevidenced so long as the
assertion is stated properly.
... What's Title Eye X? - Ronald Reagan
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 27 Mar 96 18:50:01
EID:0448 207b9640
MSGID: 1:207/212 647b75ec
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 894C4386
On (25 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> We don't NEED to have a single moral belief. We follow the standard
we
KD> have voluntarily developed and accepted.
MH> So did Hitler. So did Stalin. So did Jeffrey Dahmer.
Those were evil people. Christianity does not prevent evil people.
Atheism does not encourage them.
... Plagarize... let noone else's work evade your eyes
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: elvis lution
|Date: 27 Mar 96 18:50:51
EID:d43d 207b9640
MSGID: 1:207/212 9d161bdc
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 894C4387
On (25 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Monty Arch...
MH> The fossil record does not support Darwinian gradualism in the least,
MH> which is why some evolutionists have placed their hope in "punctuated
MH> equilibrium." Unfortunately, the fossil record doesn't really support
MH> that either. Life forms appear in the fossil record whole and without
MH> any obvious ancestry.
Stop lying for your masters.
... Why is there a Permanent Press setting on my iron?
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: THE END?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 23:34:13
EID:fe65 207bbc40
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144b7cf5
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 228 days
DM> JB> Grow a brain, girl.
DM>
DM> SK> What the hell is that supposed to mean.. grow a brain? That was
DM> SK> pretty ignorant of you. All I am doing is asking the opinions
of
DM> SK> others on these INTERPRETATIONS of nostradamus. No where in my
DM> SK> message did i say: Insult me, please. Why don't you grow a life.
DM>
DM> Is anyone else here waiting for the new line of "Kerr
DM> Grotesque" greenware to come out of South Carolina? Life
DM> sized, and featuring three newly torn assholes!
I was thinking more along the lines of a 'ripped' asshole (the
unpleasant result of coming into contact with a Bandsaw).
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: BIBLE
|Date: 27 Mar 96 23:34:13
EID:f681 207bbc40
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144b7cf7
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 228 days
BJ> I read your message and was saddened by it! After all you went
BJ> through with studying the bible, you don't realize it is satan that
BJ> has made your life as it is or was. Becke it seems that you were
BJ> deceived by many people in your life, calling themselves Christians.
How true! I was deceived only yesterday by a man working on
my water heater who called himself a plumber.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Don't crush that geologis
|Date: 27 Mar 96 23:34:13
EID:f62d 207bbc40
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 144b7cf8
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 228 days
JH> My problem is this: Should I tell her about my brother the
JH> geologist?
That damn near brought on an asthma attack.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aspirin: Having great ambitions
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: 1 god
|Date: 26 Mar 96 22:13:00
EID:ef54 207ab1a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E19
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 14:51, Brad Jackson got back to Preston Simpson
BJ> First off I am not angry with you. Second you are not my
BJ> brother, because you are not a Christian. No I was not calling
I'm sure he is eternally greatful for that distinction.
BJ> This is like calling a tree a tree. If the shoe fits wear it!
BJ>
BJ> Mark 16:16 He that [believeth] and is baptized shall be saved; but
Then, you use the wrong analogy: "What ever the dogma pisses on
will be wet."
... "Be not righteous overmuch." -- Ecclesiastes 7:16
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Always with me
|Date: 26 Mar 96 22:16:00
EID:1d15 207ab200
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E1A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 14:51, Brad Jackson got back to George Rudzinski
GR> Mark 16:15-18. Belly up to the bar, I'll pour.
BJ> I already answered a post like this today. I will not tempt
BJ> God, just because of a foolish post.
Will you tempt god because he wrote a foolish bible?
... "I can levitate birds but nobody cares..." -- s.w.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Always with me
|Date: 26 Mar 96 22:19:00
EID:1d15 207ab260
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E1B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 14:51, Brad Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> It's pretty easy, Brad: Stop believing in your boogey man. Now,
DC> put your night light on and try and get some sleep.
BJ> You know Dan I don't need a night light!
No I don't. In fact, your allude to it below:
BJ> For Jesus is the light
BJ> of the world. So I do not have to walk in darkness, for he is with
BJ> me always.
See, there you go, admitting that you are afraid of the dark.
BJ> ... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
You both had sex with your mother? Or was it with each other?
... God told me it's none of your business. - Jimmy Swaggart.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Apostles
|Date: 26 Mar 96 22:22:00
EID:331c 207ab2c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E1C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 07:53, Brad Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
BJ> It is not words of only man! We have been told to spread the
BJ> gospel.
DC> Good timing! It's planting season and we could use some well
DC> dated manure to get the growing seasonoff to a good start.
BJ> Are you a farmer Dan?
Perhaps I should be, because I do know the manure you are
spreading.
BJ> Maybe you should read this carefully Dan, you may learn something,
BJ> and not about farming.
Feed your family with your book. As for me, a good harvest makes
for full bellys.
... When your up to your nose in it, don't open your MOUTH!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Better then This!
|Date: 26 Mar 96 22:29:00
EID:76c2 207ab3a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 07:53, Brad Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
BJ> I may have a learning disability in your eyes, but I don't in
BJ> Jesus's eyes!
At best, your Jesus' eyes are worm eaten empty sockets.
BJ> I didn't know I had to be a English professor to tell people about
BJ> God!
You have to have a brain, which it seems you gave away for free
at the last yard sale. Whoever took it was taken.
BJ> Are you an English teacher Dan?
Seems I can not only read the language, I can write it, unlike
you that can do neither, as well as punctuation.
Now go back chewing on your bible and stop drooling all over
the place.
... Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 26 Mar 96 22:55:00
EID:935c 207ab6e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 15:02, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> With a Origin Line such as that, everthing you have posted to
DC> me is suspect. Thank your good buddy, Jimmy Staaled for having
JS> Hmmm...what's wrong with his origin line, Danno?
It's quite simple, Staal: You've posted from there.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Jesus Christ is God
|Date: 26 Mar 96 23:02:00
EID:9a74 207ab840
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 14:51, Brad Jackson got back to Sean Mccullough
BJ> anything! I know God he is my personal saviour.
So, god's your butler?
... +Origin: JIHAD NETWORK!: Offing popes for the True Christians (TM)!
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SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Anthony Grigor-scott
|Sub: ma teresa
|Date: 26 Mar 96 23:06:00
EID:6e8c 207ab8c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 20:12, Anthony Grigor-scott got back to Sean Mccullough
SM> All who profess to be Christians ARE Christians, Anthony. The "Not
SM> True Christian" dodge doesn't work on us.
AG> Really? Then Adolf Hitler was a Christian, and so were the Popes of
AG> Rome.
Puts you in very good company, Grigor. You should feel so
proud of yourself.
... Cretinism: creationism after you remove the Alpha (a) and Omega (o)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:25:00
EID:83b5 207b4b20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 11:12, David Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
>DR> I'll bring lots of rum to deaden the pain.
DC> Hopefully you remember at least part of your trip...
DR> That's what cameras are for. I hope to have two caneras: one
Just remember to point them in the right direction and to put film
in them!
>DR> Laurie Appleton exists there!
DC> infested waters with some koala leaves.
DR> I could entice him to the jaws of Jaws with a handful of
DR> _Impact_ and _Acts_and_Facts[sic]_ pamphlets from the ICR
DR> cult. He really gets off on those.
They'll probably give the carcharias carcharindon a bad case of gas.
DR> The sceanery down at the beach where I live is nice, though
DR> their boyfriends are awefully teritorial. . . .
See if you can challenge them into smimming a 5 pound raw beef
out a mile the fastest...
DR> enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey, so I also
DR> need to buy a heater and foul-weather gear.
Have you looked into a heat exchanger?
DC> BTW, do you need a recipe for my Wahini Sunrise? It'll
DC> work out really well with those kegs of rum of yours.
DR> I like the idea. I'll trade the recipe for the Cement Slinger
DR> that Captian Ron invented (you'll need a marline spike to
I saw the movie, but I don't remember the drink.... Anyhow:
MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v7.04
Title: Wahini Sunset
Categories: Humor, Drink, Hawaian
Yield: 1 servings MM#: 2800
1 Pineapple, fresh, crushed 1/2 c Dark rum
1 c Papaya juice 1 c Ice
1/2 c Mango juice
Add all ingredients to a blender. Mix at high speed until ice is
well chrushed.
Best served by two cute Wahinis at sunset on a sandy beach.
For the more adventuresome, you can also continue making them
and call it a Wahini Sunrise some 12 hours later.
MMMMM
... "Bother," said Pooh, after his little midnight tryst with Kanga.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: rabies shots anyone?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:28:00
EID:dcfc 207b4b80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 07:46, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> How about getting this clown to post here?
JB>
JB> I've been trying. Unfortunately, those posts were the last I've
JB> seen from him.
I'm having fun over in another echo with another clown. He
seems like he doesn't want to come over here. Can't understand
why...
JB> My last post to Keller was simply to ask if he wanted a referral to
a
JB> good doctor, that he was one sick puppy.
I hope it was to a veterinarian that specializes in neutering...
... Bigot: won't think. Fool: Can't Think. Slave: dare not
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:31:00
EID:1492 207b4be0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 22:14, Jerry Gilbreath got back to Shelby Sherman
JG> A close study will show that reality matches up with biblical
JG> accounts quite well. I am not sure what you mean by "science",
JG> but a lot of people mean "theories". You may be suprised to
JG> know that the "scientific" theory of evolution, for example has
JG> no support apart from more theories (no evidence). The Genesis
JG> account, however, has literally millions of tons of evidence
JG> (not just theories). I am referring to the hundreds of feet of
JG> sediment all over the world, even on mountain tops.
Just in case you missed this posting... Jet lag, and all of that.
... "Hey, Noah, wait for us!" Chilly Willie and friend
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:32:00
EID:045a 207b4c00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 15:04, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
JS> anything that I have written. I merely used (obvious) aliases as a
JS> form of personal amusement.
Like then and now, you admit to masturbating yourself, Lon S. Mabon.
... I am Oosterman of Borg. I am here to lie for Staal of the Borg!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: US BANS ABORITONSPEAK ON
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:36:00
EID:336c 207b4c80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 06:51, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> No, I already told you: guess who.
AS> D'oh! "Tommy can you hear me..."
JB>
JB> See, Dan. You have absolutely nothing to worry about from my
JB> intervention.
Perhaps, but he's starting to catch on....
"He sure plays a great meat ball."
Sorry, Al, the debil made me paraphrase that.
... "One should forgive one's enemies; but not before they are hanged."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 27 Mar 96 09:42:00
EID:732f 207b4d40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 06:55, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> I was hoping to get at least four more posts back from him on
JB> say that you and he have got the '90s version of the old Abbott and
JB> Costello routine going...'Guess Who's on First'.
The big question now is whether he's ever seen that routine before!
Frankly, I don't give a damn was the greatest group that ever was.
Unfortunately, they couldn't get a record company to publish a single
song under their damn name...
... "Yeah, sure. But notice the contradiction in Mother Goose 7:32" DR
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: CLAIMS OF DEITY CONSTRUC
|Date: 27 Mar 96 15:31:00
EID:e027 207b7be0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 17:42, Dennis Hall got back to Martin Goldberg
MG>>It's that simple. Where is your evidence for god?
DH> It is this simple. Faith. Just like the faith that it takes to believe
DH> that God does not exist.
I have faith that I've got a signed document that says you
owe me $100,000.
Now, pay up, welcher.
... Real facts never contradict faith. - Ron Stringfellow (pentecostal)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Janice Coleman
|Sub: HEAVENLY FATHER
|Date: 27 Mar 96 15:41:00
EID:53bf 207b7d20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-13-96 23:20, Janice Coleman got back to Brad Jackson
JC> This is the biggest problem with this echo. I thought it was for
JC> debate but there is no debate. An issue is presented and there is no
Try debating the evidence that your god exits. Got any?
... "Reason is the Devil's Whore" -- Martin Luther
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: Pascal's Wager
|Date: 27 Mar 96 15:49:00
EID:f87b 207b7e20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-19-96 23:35, Dennis Hall got back to Martin Goldberg
MG> It's the same thing. Unmitigated mythology.
DH> Pascal's Wager:
DH> does not. If I am right, I gain everything, and if I am wrong, I lose
DH> nothing. If you are wrong, you lose everything.
Too bad you are worshiping the wrong god and that you are going
to fry for pissing that god off.
Care to place your next bet? Oops, you lost it all on that
last silly wager, didn't you.
... If they're stupid enough to believe the other lies, what's one more?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: Some Humor
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:15:00
EID:f517 207ba1e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
In case you may not have heard this one before:
* Originally By: Rich Harper
I hope that you wont take offense at this little bit of humor but
your mentioning the Rabbis brought it to mind. But in the world of
religion, it could be almost any of them. 8-)
So it seems that these four rabbis had a series of theological
arguments, and three were always in accord against the fourth.
One day, the odd rabbi out, after the usual "3 to 1, majority
rules" statement that signified that he had lost again, decided
to appeal to a higher authority. "Oh, God!" he cried. "I know
in my heart that I am right and they are wrong! Please give me
a sign to prove it to them!"
It was a beautiful, sunny day. As soon as the rabbi finished
his prayer, a storm cloud moved across the sky above the four.
It rumbled once and dissolved. "A sign from God! See, I'm
right, I knew it!" But the other three disagreed, pointing out
that stormclouds form on hot days.
So the rabbi prayed again: "Oh, God, I need a bigger sign to show
that I am right and they are wrong. So please, God, a bigger sign!"
This time four stormclouds appeared, rushed toward each other
to form one big cloud, and a bolt of lightning slammed into a
tree on a nearby hill. "I told you I was right!" cried the rabbi,
but friends insisted that nothing had happened that could not
be explained by natural causes.
The rabbi is getting ready to ask for a *very big* sign, but just
as he says "Oh God..." the sky turns pitch black, the earth shakes,
and a deep, booming voice intones, "HEEEEEEEE'S RIIIIIIIGHT!"
The rabbi puts his hands on his hips, turns to the other three,
and says, "Well?"
"So," shrugged one of the other rabbis, "now it's 3 to 2!"
Enjoy!
<>
... Mail Bonding Ritual: Glue all bills together...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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! Origin: Coffee House BBS, Manitou Springs CO (719) 685-0695 (1:128/76)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: jefferson
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:23:00
EID:bbe8 207ba2e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
If anyone wonders where Mikey wandered off to, here he is:
* Originally By: Michael Hardy
* Originally To: Lenny Flank
* Originally Re: jefferson
* Original Area: Evolutionary
* Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12
-> MH>-> THIS bullshit. In effect, they are trying to arguie that if
-> MH>they can -> establish that I am *not* George Washington, then I
-> MH>must necessarily -> be Thomas Jefferson. The argument itself is
-> MH>specious.
->
-> MH>Not really. If there are only two significant competing theories,
-> MH>then any evidence which weakens one tends to strengthen the other.
->
->
->
-> My point exactly. There are NOT only two significant competing
-> theories. There are alternatives to both evolution AND creation.
-> One alternative, whcih I have presented before, is that the universe
-> and life were NEVER created, but have existed forever. Now, given
-> that third alternative, explain to me how evidence which is
-> supposedly "against evolution" becomes automatically evidence "for
-> creation".
If there are three valid theories, evidence which weakens one will
strengthen both of the others. However, the evidence seems to strongly
suggest that the universe DID begin, in the Big Bang.
Evolutionary theory can support and defend itself on its
-> own terms, using data and experiment. Why can creation "science"
-> not do the sdame? Why is creation "science" nothing more than
-> (wrong) arguments AGAINST evolution? Why can creation "science" not
-> make any positive claims in its own behalf?
It can, and does. For example, the theory of creation predicts that
life forms will appear fully formed and without ancestry. This is, in
fact, what the fossil record shows.
The theory of creation predicts that lifeforms may vary within their
kind -- speciation, adaptation -- but not transform from one kind into
another. And in fact, this is exactly what we observe. (There is no
evidence that, for example, dogs, cats and humans share a common
mammalian ancestor. That is only an inference drawn after first ASSUMING
that evolutionary theory is correct. There is also the fact that as dog
breeds, for example, run the gamut from chihuahua to Great Dane -- but
after all the genetic material within the dog "kind" is exhausted, the
result of further pushing is not a new kind of creature, but sickly and
weak inbred dogs.
I also dispute that the criticisms of evolutionary theory are always
"incorrect." Certainly there may be some people attempting to refute
evolutionary theory who don't understand it well enough to do so, but
many critics are informed. Many Creationists are educated scientists who
simply reject the scientific orthodoxy. I've been corresponding with a
Dr. Kurt Wise, who has a Ph.D. in paleontology from Harvard. S.J. Gould
was his graduate adviser -- he certainly understands evolutionary
theory. He just doesn't buy it.
->
-> Because creation "science" is, when you get right down to it, not
-> science at all--it is a religious argument against evolution, nothing
-> more and nothing less.
->
Evolution is, equally, a religious argument against creation. The
assumption that all explanations MUST be natural is a religious
assumption. It isn't evidenced or supported, it is simply taken -- on
faith -- to be true.
-!- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
! Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:34:00
EID:d41f 207ba440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-26-96 06:23, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> I didn't say the fragment was penned by him personally. It was a
DC> Ok, so maybe it's a copy... A copy of what? Without a predating
DC> version, there is no way to justify that it is a copy of anything.
MB> I just ordered a book titled _Who Really Wrote the New Testament_ by
MB> Burton Mack (he's one of those heretics that the fundies love to
Sounds like it may be a pretty good read...
DC> 0-8065-1124-9, p. 343. Rabbi Wise, in the 19th Century searched
DC> those very archives and found nothing to evidence that the
MB> don't finish books that I start. The reasons can range from boring
MB> writing to burned-out on the topic). Sounds like I gotta revisit
That one is not too bad of a book to wade through. The _Mind of
the Bible Believer_ is a lot more difficult, at least so far. Been
working too many hours lately and I don't quite have enough time
to really be awake when I'm reading it. Kinda wish I was back at
school when I had plenty of spare time to just read...
... Christ died for our sins, so let's not disappoint him.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose On
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:36:00
EID:ef10 207ba480
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-26-96 06:41, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
-> On 03-22-96 19:01, Rick Mcfarlane got back to Dan Ceppa
RM> Looks to me like this court has just decided that atheism is
RM> a religion.
DC> No more so than the Constitution is a document that requires
DC> a religion to be a citizen of this country.
MB> affiliation, either. Does that mean that if a person is not a
MB> registered voter (has no political affiliation) (s)he CAN be
MB> discriminated against in employment? Duh.
In his apparently black and white view of the world, it seems
to be the case. It's like the fundies that insist that
Evolution _must_ be a religion.
... Pope goes to Mount Olive. Popeye damn near kills him.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: LAST RITES
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:40:00
EID:f362 207ba500
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-26-96 06:32, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> because hir killed hirself" was not exactly comforting to the
DC> family of the deceased.
MB> I'll be it pissed off some of 'em to the point where they quit
MB> going to mass and putting money in the poor box....
There's no way that I would take a bet like that, as that's
what it did.
MB> they'd lost their marbles. I've often wondered the same thing
MB> about all those schmucks who ate meat on Friday before it was
MB> declared legal.
Very interesting predicament there... Thing is, many of the
older parishioners still follow the "laws" that they learned.
Traditions do take a long time to overcome.
... SATANIC (say tan' ik) adj. Anything a fundy likes, but won't admit
it
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: See: Bonus!
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:47:00
EID:3fe8 207ba5e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-26-96 20:09, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> 25 Ways to Cope With Stress
DC> 1. Jam miniature marshmallows up your nose and sneeze them out. See
DC> how many you can do at a time.
SA> Just don't forget not to use 'em in your cocoa afterwards.
Gaackkk!
DC> 5. Make a list of things to do that you have already done.
SA> The best sort of To-Do list.
And, the easiest to keep!
DC> 6. Dance naked in front of your pets.
SA> Hum. Do cockroaches count as pets?
Only if you put them on a leash...
DC> 12. Go shopping. Buy everything. Sweat in it. Return it the next
DC> day.
SA> You mean that's NOT what you're supposed to do? :)
I know of well-to-do people that actually do that.
DC> 15. Drive to work in reverse.
SA> How about walking backwards for the terminally pedestrian?
That works, and may even be more interesting, especially if
you can talk in "reverse" as you do it!
DC> 22. Braid the hairs in each nostril.
SA> Hmm. Maybe one could braid the hairs in a friend's nostril? :)
Just remember, you can pick your friends, you can pick your nose,
but would you want to pick your friends' nose?
DC> Bonus: Replace the filling of a Twinkie with ketchup and put it
DC> back in the wrapper.
SA> Bonus bonus: When someone who regularly bums smokes asks for yet
SA> another one, give him one of those nasty herbal cigarette
Send me a few of them... I should cut back myself...
... "The Book of Mormon is chloroform in print" - Mark Twain
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Why
|Date: 27 Mar 96 20:52:00
EID:e9f6 207ba680
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 17:48, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> years ago about the county deer. She was all happy to move to
SA> the country, et al, but she got really upset when the deer decided
SA> to eat her Japanese ornamental shrubs that she was dumb enough to
SA> pay $10 each for, and stated a wish to hit the animals with rocks.
Sounds like she got hit a lot more by being conned into paying
that much for a plant. Maybe she should try hitting them with
the rocks in her head..
SA> just fine. Hmm. I wonder if the management here would mind if I
SA> commandeered a little strip of dirt next to the house to plant a
SA> carrot or three?
Start a compost heap and through in some potoes with eyes. You
will have a very nice start on potatoes. I understand that
garlic works about a quick in taking over any plot of ground.
... "Obstacles do not exist to be surrendered to, but only to be broken."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: your twithood
|Date: 27 Mar 96 21:02:00
EID:2030 207ba840
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-26-96 22:03, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
Caution: Fundy decloaking.
MH> Saw this from you in Al's response:
You are making Staal look honest. You should be ashamed of
yourself.
DC> Of course it decreases _his_ noise level. He doesn't have to answer
DC> pointed questions that undermine his "analogies".
MH> Don't flatter yourself. There are many skeptics here who are FAR more
MH> formidable than you are that I have not twitted. (Burcham and
Gee, cut me to the quick, Mikey.
MH> mindless namecalling and repeating the same questions, which I had
MH> answered a dozen times each.
Such a shame that you answered with your patented "analogies". Next
time, try something different, like actually answering the query
put to you.
MH> intelligent opponents. You may well be reasonably intelligent -- but
MH> you never demonstrated it in your exchanges with me.
You have that wrong, fundy. Every time you have provided one
of your silly analogies it was soundly debunked.
And, as to my exchanges with you, I used to give you credit for
actually answering a question or admitting you hadn't one. You
have taken the steep, slippery path down the road to Fundy-dumb.
Now, do provide that evidence of a god you claim exists. <--- That's
a query, Mikey. Try providing the evidence that one exists
outside your mind and stop hinding behind your Blasphemy Shield.
... "Thread Dropped, discussion welcome." Michael "clueless" Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 27 Mar 96 21:28:00
EID:be00 207bab80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-16-96 04:09, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> If the older Cat People comes on television (but you don't get cable,
AS> right? Fat chance.) get it. Or it MIGHT be in video.
They have a Classic Section in the video store that changes a
bit every so often. Maybe they get a copy... I'm still
trying to find a copy of _Comedy of Terrors_ (a bit on
a different vein, so to speak!)
AS> Yeah, GHOST STORY by Straub (that was what you meant, right?) was
AS> He was supposed to be a more polished Stephen King. But though he
AS> cowrote with King, I really didn't like him as much as King.
I'm not a big fan of King's, as I hate his endings. Ghost Story
was pretty good, IMHO, surpasing King.
AS> ghost stories. It's called "All Hollows"....don't recall the author,
DC> I've heard of that. You are going to force me to find a copy of
AS> bed, and then realized that I would have to go downstairs, turn off
ALL
AS> the lights, and then go up that winding stair to the upstairs. It was
Sounds a bit like when I first saw _The Haunting_. First few
commercials, all us kids went upstairs for snacks, etc. After
that, not one of us moved, except to huddle a bit closer together!
AS> And then there was the time I gave blood while reading Stephen
AS> King's SALEM'S LOT, about vampires...again, a poor choice of reading
Thing is, it's what really makes it fun! After all, that's why
designing the next Roller Coaster is such a challenge. The object
is to terrify and bring you back to that same level on every ride.
... "Oh, bother", said Pooh as he composed Roo's ransom note.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: WHO CARES?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 21:35:00
EID:a6ca 207bac60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894E0E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-18-96 00:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> As above: Goals only mean something if you do have a way of
DC> not only obtaining them, but surpassing them.
AS> The goal is to surpass your old standard, getting closer and closer
AS> to the end...but of course, the end is infinitely long away...
AS> True, but that's why an attainable goal and the possibilty of
AS> surpasing it makes more sense.
Not quite sure, as this is how your reply quoted, but didn't
I say that...
AS> It usually works best if you set short term goals. (In fact, compared
AS> to eternity, ANY goal will be short term.) "Give no thought to the
Long term goals also have their purpose. Part of that is to put
the short term goals into an organized structure to acheive them.
AS> I'm not worried about being perfect. I'm just worried about not
AS> trying to mess up TOO badly.
That's what it's all really about...
... "There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny." - H. Solo
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: All
|Sub: Well, I'm back...(for a short time), Part 1.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:38:59
EID:aacf 207b6cc0
Hello, all.
To quote Jerry Garcia and company, "What a long, strange
trip it's been."
But first, the highlights:
In slightly more than six weeks, I've traveled over 100,000
kilometers; and most of that was on Aeroflot. I've visited 6
countries and traversed so damn many time zones, I'm still
not sure what the hell day it is today.
But all has not been just for the pursuit of filthy lucre,
oh no! Many tales of fundamentalism in it's many and wearied
forms shall soon be regaled. Really, it all started
innocently enough at Houston Intergalactic and the duty free
bar/shop. Seems that there's an inordinate number of fellow
travelers from Oil City that head east on a similar
bimonthly schedule. Best part is, they're all rather convivial
and all on expense accounts. The best booze is free booze
(even if it is _only_ scotch).
Anyways.
After a quick few rounds of "Who can run up their expense
account the fastest", KLM announced the departure of
Flight 666 (I am _NOT_ making this up!) from Houston to
Amsterdam. As luck would have it, dame fortune smiles upon
tipplers and the gonzo, so that we were assuredly doubly
blessed, and the 747-400 had only a mere 120 souls for the
trip. Strange thing, it seems that virtually everyone opts
for the front of the big bird, yet the assorted and sordid
oil field trash immediately heads tailward.
Closer to the heads and the dispensary, don'tchaknow. (This
travel tip supplied free with your subscription to
"'HolySmoke'; now an international fundy frying forum".)
Soon, we're winging our way east, through the stratosphere
(still damned few fossils there...) and well on our
collective way to a colossal hangover. Someone produced a
deck of cards, and an impromptu poker game (on company
dinero) got underway. I had my trusty laptop, PIM, CD
player and collection of fine dance tunes when I noted that
one of our number had a set of small speakers (the kind that
attach to Walkman type players). Soon, the poker game
was going full tilt, as were the various liquor bottles, to
the refined tunes of Pink Floyd, Mussorgsky and Tangerine
Dream. Even the stewards sat in for a few hands.
All too soon, the liquor ran out (Shame...) and we we're
getting gear down and ready to invade Amsterdam. (Another
important travel note: Schiphol Airport has the most
wonderful Duty Free shops this side of Shannon, a simply
wonderful casino and the absolute worst telephone system in
the known world.) After infiltrating Netherlands customs,
the Duty Free areas and the far too few heads; we, as a
person, sallied forth to kill a few hours and errant brain
cells at the Schiphol Casino.
Let us draw the curtain on this sordid scene and pick up on
the action some few hours later on the next KLM flight from
Amsterdam to Moscow. About 15 of us had the same flight as
previous and wrangled our way to the rear of the aircraft.
It seemed rather strange that we were the only Caucasians
inhabiting this part of the plane, and we alone we lacking
the single monochromatic dot smack in the center of the
forehead. Suffice to say, the stewards ran out of orange
juice, apple juice and other non EtOh laced lovelies on this
bunch of like minded world citizens. Pity. It saved all
those nasty potables for the infidels, of which I was but
one. I was relaxing in 14G, popping another goat damned
Heiniken (one of the very few things I hate about KLM, their
lack of beers OTHER than Dutch ditch juice...ah, well. we
all must make concessions...)
Ahem.
I was working my way through a 6 pack when I heard the
little olive skinned lovely in 14B say to her smallish, and
equally bedotted offspring; "Look, dear. Over there. A
heathen." I looked up to see 4 ocular orbs quite transfixed
upon yours truly. In true HolySmokian fashion (we'd just
been served what passes for in airlinese) "lunch", which,
surprisingly, contained a couple of slices of ham. I tilted
my beer in their direction, smiled, took a swig and chomped
a hunk of ham, obviously to my relish and their abhorrence,
and said to them, rather sweetly, "And not only that, I'm
an atheist! We've come for your children, my
dear!"
Mere words cannot describe the aghast look and the physical
imposition she put between her child and the bebearded and
rather outsized apparition now asking for a double vodka and
Bitter Lemon in the seat a mere armslength away.
Fundies. Silly in any stripe (or dot).
We arrive in Moscow (almost trampled by the True Believers
trying to, as quickly as possible, exit the plane (hmm...I
wonder why?...) and trundle off to passport control (Hell)
and Russian entry customs (Hell^2). The only redeeming thing
about Shermeteyvo-2 is the Irish Bar that is immediately to
your left once you pass customs. After waving off hoards of
taksee drivers, we collectively gather at the Irish Bar for
the traditional Mulligan Stew (say adios to western cuisine)
and a few pounders of Guinness. Here, the cadre of
westerners broke, each heading their separate way. Me? I'm
off to the Moscow Marco Polo Palace and dip in the jacuzzi.
The next 43 days were rather uneventful, being spent in
Siberia and what with it being winter and all. Apart from
the banya excursions, ice fishing trips, vodka and beer; it
was a fairly quiet hitch. One instance of note: we're
shooting a 3-D seismic grid out in the outback. The only way
around the countryside (now nestled serenely under a 2 m
thick blanket of snow) is through the use of old Soviet
armored personnel carriers (graciously donated by the
military to the local Neftegaz groups after their stint in
Afghanistan). The smaller recon vehicles (the GAZ 11) weighs
in at only 6 tons, and, being a tracked vehicle, is the very
height of fun to drive. The larger GAZ 20's tip in at around
11 or so metric tons, and are used by the seismic crews to
drag around the skid-mounted drill rigs to prepare the 15 m
deep shotholes. APV's, drilling rigs and explosives...what
could be better?
... "Dave. My mind. It's going. Plot course to Mt. Ararat?"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: COME TOGETHER
|Date: 24 Mar 96 13:48:25
EID:7ee8 20786e00
Norbert Sykes, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to
Judith Bandsma:
NS> COME TOGETHER:
NS> 1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Judith Bandsma,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to J.j. Hitt <=-
NS>
NS> I remember eggmen and milkmen and icecreammen and pizzadeliveryguys
NS> and even newspaperboys. The latter had a lot of trouble getting
NS> around when it rained. };) My favorites were the icecreammen.
JB> Oh geez, now you've done it. Stirred memories of the ice man. (I
JB> grew up in a rural area and we had ice delivered for a LONG time after
JB> the rest of the country had refrigerators. When it came to milk,
JB> though, it came in the cow and you had to get your own.)
NS>
NS> I understand my maternal uncle (whom I share a middle name with) used
NS> to nurse off an old nanny goat on the farm where they lived until he
NS> was about five. I guess he got fed regular, but still liked to chase
NS> the goat around and get some fresh goat milk. I tell that to my
NS> sons. They make vomiting noises. Sigh.
NS>
NS> I remember itinerant cobblers that would go around fixing shoes, too,
And their call: "Cobble, cobble, cobble!"
NS> and I think I recall guys who would fix the holes in pots and pans
NS> too, though I can't remember what we called them.
Tinkers: "I tink! I tink!" That little leaden levee to keep the
potmetal in place? A tinker's dam.
Just another service with your subscription to HolySmoke: The
ecclesiastical spider-web site on the internet.
... Close your eyes, click your heels together 3 times and yell "IS NOT!"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: A Fair & Just God-damned travesty
|Date: 25 Mar 96 08:03:38
EID:2a54 20794060
Larry Bevard, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to
J.J. Hitt:
LB> J.j.,
JH>On Mar 18 04:58 96, Larry Bevard of 1:3615/51 wrote:
JH>
JH>LB> So when God kills, or orders others to kill, it is to protect
JH>LB> His people and advance the world, when we kill it is usually
JH>LB> because of selfishness.
JH>
JH>Ahhh....
JH>
JH>When God kills it is to further His own interests.
JH>When a human kills it to further their own interests.
JH>
JH>Thank you, the difference is much clearer now.
LB> I guess you could put it that way. I cannot make excusses for
LB> God, but all I know is that God said for us not to kill, and that is
LB> good enough for me.
Gedankenexperiment #1: A psychopath has broken into your home,
intent on stealing its tires. You catch him in the act. He
grabs your wife/youngest child/etc. and threatens to kill
her/him/it, immediately followed by zapping you; and he's
quite obviously capable and unhinged enough to do this act.
You have no other option but to kill him (which, in this little
scenario, you have this capability), or you and your significant
others will join the choir invisible.
These are your two and only two options. No apologetics or
waffling allowed.
Kill or be killed. Which for you? [K/K]?
... Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for valuable prizes.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 25 Mar 96 05:34:16
EID:1c7d 20792c40
Preston Simpson, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said
to Marty Leipzig:
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Marty Leipzig Waco Rememberance wgah'nagl fhtagn.
ML> The "Guns and Liquor" Store in Uvalde carries 00 buck (~8 .32
ML> caliber slugs in one nice, neat little package), 000 buck (~6
ML> .44 as above) and even 0000 buck (~4 .50 caliber slugs). For
ML> real stopping power, try a 3.5" 10 gauge magnum rifled deer
ML> slug.
PS> There's such a thing as 0000 buck? Damnation--must be some *big* deer
PS> out that way.
Surprisingly, not really. Hill Country deer are not terribly
massive critters. Hell, a good 8 pointer usually tips out at
around 50 or so kilos. The thing they do have that's big out
there is guns, and the abyss of intelligence of _most_ of the
owners of said weapons.
ML> Or, just say "The Hell with it." and load up the ol' Glock 10
ML> mm.
PS> Or the GAU-8, but those aren't exactly man-portable.
But do have the added advantage of killing, cleaning and
cooking most anything they hit; simultaneously.
... He contributes a great deal to his church - he doesn't go.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Cubanitos, Habana style.
|Date: 25 Mar 96 05:51:56
EID:37d4 20792e60
J.J. Hitt, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to Marty
Leipzig:
JH> On Mar 24 06:19 96, Marty Leipzig of 1:106/113 wrote:
JH>> The cusine is strictly cuban, mostly chicken with rice or beans
JH>> and cooked with tommatoes and other fruits. Seasoning ranges
JH>> from "mildly hot" to "burns yer ass" and on up to "leaves
JH>> scortch marks on table".
ML> I just love Cuban Coffee with Pisco. Enough caffeine to
ML> wake the city of the dead with a EtOh sidecar just for
ML> grins.
JH> I still remember the first time I ordered coffee in Miami.
JH> They brought me this little demitase (or however you spell the
JH> name of those cups stollen from doll sets) and I sat there
JH> waiting for them to bring the coffee.
Whilst the stuff in the shot glass was quietly eating through
the crockery.
JH> I thought I was supposed to pour the little shotglass thingie
JH> into the coffee when they brought it.
JH> I like expresso, but those little fucking cups are for the birds.
Agreed. Hell, you can hardly fit any booze at all into those
little bastards.
JH> If I order it, I want a mug full.
If so, do you spring for the defibrillator option; or do you
just sit quietly and buzz all day?
... "Tuesdays are Human Sacrifice Day at the Sizzler!" - Joel
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: All
|Sub: Well, I'm back...(for a short time) Part 2.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:48:13
EID:aacf 207b6e00
Anyways.
After a brief stint in Ufa, Bashkiria (the *other* side of
the Urals), on a plane flight where I was the one and only
westerner (Newspaper headlines dancing through my head:
"Russian plane goes down in Bashkiria. 350 Russians and
1 goofy American missing."), I return to the oilfields of
Western Siberia and prepare for my departure to points west.
So, it's another jam-packed, joyful-noiseful Aeroflot voyage
back to Moscow. Interesting what patches of black ice on a
runway can do to a IL-76 airliner. Never before have I been
on a flight that went sideways after landing...
Off to retrieve baggage and rustle up a driver for the 130
km trip from Domodedevo to Shermeteyvo-2 (domestic to
international airport...gad, they do things strangely over
there.) Taking a ride from one airport to the other in
Moscow is a real experience; you get to see, up close and
personal, the birch forests that surround Moscow, the dachas
built in the waning days of the old Soviet Union by the
swells and wheels of the Politburo (which are now for rent
by western land rapers and defilers), the never ceasing
construction and the constant parade of ancient, smelly,
deisel-belching transport trucks that keep the city going.
And the building...it seems that the Russians have elevated
the architectural requine of "ugly concrete slab" to an art
form. They pour 'em in forms by the hundreds of thousands
and truck 'em to where ever they want to build
something...anything. From apartment blocks, to retaining
walls, to Metro depots...all the exact same size,
thickness and generic *blahness* that only unfinished
concrete can offer. Esthetics? Piss on that. I can only
surmise that it works.
So, finally after 2 hours of battling Moscow traffic (just
you and 8x10^6 of your closest friends), I am relieved of
$150 of good, American hard currency, and am unceremoniously
dumped out in front of the airport. Doing the old bagdrag, I
round up a 13'th century (or so it seems) wheeled cart and
head for the upstairs bar (I have about 4 hours until my
flight). It's exceptionally quiet for Sherm-2; but, then
again, it's midweek. I decide to catch a flight to Ankara to
visit Solly (I've got a load of software for him..."For
evaluation purposes..."), then, after a couple of days R&R
in Turkey, head to Amsterdam, and other points west.
After a few hours duty-freeing it and schmoozing around the
Irish Bar at the airport, I hear the flight call and I'm off
on my way southwest. I board the flight and immediately
notice all the freshly scrubbed, white starched shirt
sporting and becravated automata filling near every seat on
this flight. The mood in the plane is downright somber and,
again, I wonder aloud as to what I've gotten myself into.
Try as I might, I cannot help but overhearing my seatmates,
near tears, complaining just how shabbily they were
received: "We come over to their country to bring them the
"Good News" , and they don't even have the courtesy to
listen..." His buddy in the next seat over assents: "Yes. We
take the time and trouble to bring them "Enlightenment"
, and they won't even let us have an outdoor meeting."
It is at that point that I realize that I have wandered into
not KLM flight 252, but rather Fundamental Fruits Flight
011. Yep, there's your humble scribe, literally
cheek-by-jowl with no less than 150 fundy missionaries who
had recently been jettisoned gluetus-first from Mother Russia.
Adopting one of my many nom-de-guerre personas, I decide to
do a little espionage just for you folks out there in
HolySmoke land (I figured this would be good for a hoot if
not another installment of "Tales of the Indigent Rich" stories).
Well, after getting some of the best service imaginable from the
flight crew (I was apparently the only one partaking of the
free booze; the rest of the plane's cadre didn't seem overly
thirsty), I innocently inquired to the character over in 27B
"Are you on some sort of package tour?"
"Hmmmph. Package tour? No. We're Christian Missionaries
."
"Did you have a good time in Moscow?", I entreated.
"No. Nor in St. Petersburg, nor Riga, nor Kiev..."
"Sounds ominous. What happened?", I asked oh, so innocently.
"They nearly ran us off. Everytime, everywhere..."
"What were you doing? Plotting insurrection?"
"Not at all! We were merely trying to share the good news
about our Lord Jesus Christ to these people...".
"Did you ever stop to think that maybe they aren't
interested in YOUR Lord Jesus Christ?"
"But they MUST have an interest, or they'll be cast into the
Gorge of Eternal Peril (or something very close to that)."
"Did it ever occur to you that they may not care for your
brand of religion and have their very own that they're
comfortable with, or even the lack of one, with which
they're even more comfortable?"
"But...!", (he was really frothing at this point), "They're
wrong! We have the 'One, True Religion' ."
Sound somewhat familiar, folks?
I asked him if he had ever heard of Pascal, but all I got
was a blank stare. I flagged down a stew and had another
double bitter lemon and vodka, and settled in for a
real-time version of HolySmoke. This had all the earmarks of
a real good time; killing a few otherwise boring hours and
flipping fundies the metaphorical finger.
... Because I could not stop for Death, He kindly stopped for me.- Pynchon
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: The Lies of the UN-Righteous
|Date: 25 Mar 96 09:30:33
EID:4713 20794bc0
Anthony Grigor-Scott, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip,
said to Martin Goldberg:
MG> How does anyone get as stupid as you seem to be?
AG> With great patience and plenty of practice I fear. I rather suspect
we
AG> may be discussing two different questions (?) and if that is so then
AG> it may be my stupidity as you seem to think. So let's talk about
AG> carbon dating (of which I do not know very much at all).
MG> To claim that all 14C dating is problematic for this reason is
MG> ignorant.
AG> You may be right here. What I was saying is that the technique has
AG> been made to make some incredibly wrong estimates.
Hardly. It's just that nescients like you, who admittedly know
nothing of radiocarbon dating, lick up the pap offered by your
masters without trying to think on your own.
Chew on this for a while, chuckles:
Radiometric dating and the determination of the age of rocks (not
the rock of ages...)
Radiometric dating of fossils and rocks is method for extracting
geochronological data from geological materials through the
application of the laws of physics to these materials. It is not
predicated on the fossil content of a unit; for various reasons.
These include the fact that the most oftimes dated material (due
to its geochemistry) are igneous rocks (which tend to be
notoriously non-fossiliferous) or that the sedimentary rocks being
analyzed; i.e those with the necessary constituent chemistry (like
glauconitic muds containing potassium for K/Ar dating) are quite
non-fossiliferous. Likewise, these methods were used in dating
lunar materials (as I did at NASA's lunar receiving lab); and
there are not many (read: no) fossils in lunar material.
The underlying basis for radiometric dating (or actual dating, as
my British colleagues prefer) is radioactive decay; i.e.,
spontaneous decay of unstable nuclei by particle emission
(radiation). If you attack radiometric dating, you are not
attacking evolution, geology nor paleontology, but physics. A fools
errand if there ever was one (Right, Tony-o?).
Anyways, the process of radioactive decay yields various
proportions of isotopes directly dependant on the half-life of the
elements being considered and the time since deposition or
emplacement. The ratio of parent to daughter isotopes, coupled
with the half-life values, yield, after various chemical and
mechanical procedures (which I will not go into as it's a rather
rigorous procedure, and not at all germane to this particular
discussion, at least in this forum) the radiometric age of the
sample.
There are four typical methods of radiometric data, each useful
for certain age ranges. These are K/Ar (half-life 1.3 BY), Rb/Sr
(half-life 47 BY), U/Pb which measures the relative amounts of
235U and 238U in reference to 206Pb and 207Pb (as a built in cross
check), and finally, 14C (half life 5,730 years), accurate for
artifacts and such up to about 60K years.
Now, if Ron was to act true to form, I'm sure that he'll rant and
rail about dating being a circular argument because "the fossils say
it's Cretaceous because they were found in Cretaceous rocks" or
other such nonsense. As the geological column was established
well before C. Darwin and his historic "Origin of Species" (NOT
"Origins of Life [sic]", as Ron would have us believe), this
contention is specious, at best. At worst, it belies Ron the
Redundant's obvious ignorance.
But, I figure that he'll probably filch something from ICR
propaganda like it's a invalid assumption that (1.) the rock
is a closed system, (2.) there was no initial daughter product and
(3.) that there is a constant decay rate. (This is straight out of
Morris, 1985. Am I close?) Well, let's just see...
Our knowledge of decay rates are indeed uncertain, as is most
everything in science. As much as it pains some hereabouts,
there are no absolutes in the Universe nor are we ever 100.000%
certain of anything in nature. The figures come very close to 100%,
but never ever exactly 100%. But, the accuracy of our knowledge
of decay rates is within 1 or 2 percent (as is evidenced by
radiometric figures given as X years + or - z years).
Further, there are methods and procedures to allow for initial
daughter components (isotopic geochemistry and inorganic
quantitative analysis are but two). So much for that objection.
Finally, there is the quandary of loss (not addition) of daughter
product to our "closed system". Sometimes, radiometric dates are
not valid for just this reason; and are therefore discarded. But,
if we are investigating an unknown, how do we determine validity
or fallacy of a date? By some preconceived idea (as I'm sure Ron
is all aslather if he's made it this far)? Nope. As there is
no "date" we're trying to "hit" (as Ronzo so pejoratively
states), but rather we check and cross-check individual dates.
Viz: if dates generated by DIFFERING methods generate similar results,
they are deemed concordant dates and are accepted as valid. There
is a VERY low probability that different isotopic systems with
different constraints would produce the same results by chance.
As noted by G. Brent Dalrymple of the USGS, many thousands upon
thousands of measurements by over 100 different laboratories
(academic and private sector) have been documented in the
literature. Looks like the methods and procedures, as borne out
by the above, are quite valid; and that we have literally tons of
data and thousands of concordant dates that note we are dealing
with a successful geochronological dating method.
Finally, we do assume that the decay rates of the various elements
are and have been constants. There have been many experiments to
alter decay rates by using extreme laboratory conditions not
likely to occur in nature. Still, with all that, the rates only
were forced to vary between 0.1% and 2.5%, but not in any isotopes
used in radiometric dating. These proved to be even more resistant
to external forces.
Still, the phonies at the ICR claim that cosmic rays, geomagnetic
reversals or free neutron capture could alter decay rates. Cosmic
rays have been quite adequately tested and were found to cause no
detectable change in the decay rates. So, *poof* goes the
geomagnetic reversal contention, as a lower geomagnetic flux would
allow MORE cosmic rays into the geosphere. With free neutron
capture, this would not change the decay rate, but rather the
decaying nucleus itself. It would change it into a new isotope
with a decay rate all it's own.
That should keep you busy for a while.
... Doing away with God (is) to cease to be a man; and become superman.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: All
|Sub: Well, I'm back...(for a short time) Part 3.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 14:41:42
EID:aacf 207b7520
So, there I am. Ass deep in a planeload of disgruntled
fundies, heading to Turkey. (I found out that since they got
the gate in Russia, they were going to try and salvage a bit
of the trip and try to convert the "Islamic heathens"
(that's a quote there, folks) in Turkey and maybe get in
a bit of sightseeing. Ararat, no doubt.
Interested, I probed deeper into the intents and wherefores
of the character sitting but a scant 2 seats away. Seems
that this gaggle of glory seekers (all males, 22-30 years
old and irrepressibly as white-bread as they come) had put up
$5,000 per person to come on this "holy pilgrimage" to
"spread the good news of their Lord Jesus Christ". Realizing
immediately that I should go into the travel booking
business for churches, I asked pointedly, "What church are
you from?", as it seemed odd that even a church such as the
First Baptist Church and Savings and Loan of Houston could
pull enough strings to put together such a gathering. The
response surprised even an old jaded rocknocker like me.
"We're interdenominational.", he replied. "we are from all
walks of life..." "Yeah.", I mused, "All walks of whitebread
WASP society.", "...That want to share the Good News of Our
Lord Jesus Christ (hereafter abbreviated "GNOOLJC", it's
their favorite buzz-phrase) with all that might never hear
it."
"So.", I continued, ""You want to shove your version of
morality, ethics and western religion down the throats of
people whose own religious and moral conventions are a
product of their, not some foreign, culture?"
If looks could have killed, I would have gone out of there
in a bucket.
"But, we went there to help them!"
"You mean, you went there to help yourself to some cosmic
brownie points by parading your version of God to the poor,
unfortunate souls who don't have the benefit of being born
in the west?"
"But, they've never even heard of John 3:16!"
"I have. He needs a new watch."
"So, you're not been Born Again, have you?"
"Quite correct. I got it right the first time."
"Oh. Oh. Oh...I suppose you're Catholic, then..."
"Well, a long time ago, I was. But I got better."
"Well, what religion are you then?"
"I'm not."
"You're not what?"
"Afflicted with any religion."
"You're not..." *gasp*...
"Yep. An atheist. We're here for your children, buckaroo..."
A good line never goes out of fashion.
"You can't mean that!", he says, literally pounding on his
ever present, but obviously seldom read, Bible.
"With all my soul.", I reply.
Thus endeth the conversation with this particular fundy.
After all, it is difficult to converse with someone curled
up into a fetal position.
The remainder of the flight was rather uneventful, except
for the pause I gave a number of them gathered around the
fantail. They were gladhanding themselves about "how they
were helping these people". I asked them how much food,
succor or employment they brought with them to distribute
amongst the masses. To which I got the reply, "We are
sharing with them the greatest gift! That of the GNOOLJC!"
After appropriating another beer from the stews, I informed
that they, as I, think that your free gifts cost just too
damn much.
Needless to say, I made no new friends on that flight.
Thankfully.
We landed in Ankara and went out (gladly) separate ways.
Solly met me at the terminal, cigars in pocket and beer in
hand. "Damn.", I thought, "The only way to fly..."
Turkey, at this time, was embroiled in their biannual
elections. You think the Pats Robertson and Buchanan are
bad? Shiite! You ain't seen nothing until you've seen the
electioneering by the various parties wrangling for the
upper hand in this country. You've got the Liberal
Democrats, the Islamic Fundamentalists and half a dozen
other fringe groups vying for control. The religious fringe
is even more insipid than ours (if that is indeed
possible), and no less subtle. I fully expected to see
sword fights and mass bloodlettings in the streets, gauged
by their rhetoric.
We decided to forego all this nonsense and do some
overlanding to escape the nonsense. Turned out to be a poor
choice on our part. Since the local constabulary was
busying itself trying to maintain some semblance of
internal order, many of the roads out of Ankara and headed
to points east were totally unguarded. Travel, as one
police officer offered, was entirely at one's own risk.
Deciding that discretion was the better part of valor, we
opted for a southern route to the Taurus Mountains
(hell...been to Mt. Ararat already, got the T-Shirt...),
and made a geological pilgrimage towards the Med. Past
Lake Tuz, down through Konya and south to Antalya, to the
beaches of the northern Mediterranean. Gad...this job can
be rough sometimes.
After 5 days of soaking up local culture, esthetics and
copious amounts of locally distilled products, we tearfully
bade the Med a fond farewell and returned to Ankara. We
were pleased to learn that in our absence the Islamic Fundies
had been thoroughly routed and sanity was once again
ensconced into the political structure of Turkey. Seems that
it's going to be a difficult as ever for foreign nutcases to
get permission to despoil Ararat. I guess that 4 lane highway
there is going to be quite unused.
After a day or two at the university, I boarded a flight to
Amsterdam and back into what passes for western culture. An
uneventful flight into Schiphol greeted the weary traveler,
as did the local Hilton. Leaving no more than $200 on the
tables of the Schiphol casino, I again boarded a flight
home and into what passes around here for reality.
The upshot to all this is that I get to do it all again in
the very near future.
... The nearer to the church, the further from God - John Heywood 1546
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: ROTFL!
|Date: 27 Mar 96 05:34:53
EID:6291 207b2c40
Steve Quarrella, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said
to DAVID RICE:
SQ> Salue, DAVID!
SQ> Martis dies March 26 1996, Dixit DAVID RICE ad FREDRIC RICE:
DR> ... "And the inspiration for the vagina was...?" -- Steve Q
SQ> I never DID get a reply to that one, did I?
Sure you did.
I referenced the 5 for a buck special at Taco Bell, yet never
got a reply.
... "I'm Todd, the Baptist!"- Crow, "Viking Women & the Sea Serpent"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: 'No True Christian...'
|Date: 27 Mar 96 05:40:09
EID:af06 207b2d00
DAVID RICE, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to MARTY
LEIPZIG:
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Sean Mccullough <=-
SM> AT least you HAD Scotch.
SM> All I had was a quart of Jim Beam...........
ML> So you were doubly blessed...
DR> You must have meant to type "Doubtfully blessed."
Now don't you start.
Or I'll scotch all your diet Coke.
... Send lawyers, guns and money. The shit has hit the fan.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 27 Mar 96 05:40:50
EID:68c0 207b2d00
Don Martin, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to Marty
Leipzig:
DM> Marty Leipzig said ""No True Christian..."" to Sean McCullough,
DM> adding:
SM> All I had was a quart of Jim Beam...........
ML> So you were doubly blessed...
DM> So, welcome back from the land of vodka!
Thank you, thank you.
Seems that we've added a new gaggle of fundies and other
assorted idiots; but still the same old, tired arguments.
As if they have a choice.
... I enjoy toasting fundies better. Have another Zippo, scarecrow? - M.L.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE PICK YER PO
|Date: 27 Mar 96 05:44:53
EID:db5c 207b2d80
Dan Ceppa, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to Marty
Leipzig:
-> On 03-24-96 06:05, Marty Leipzig got back to Becke Jones
ML> The Rev. Jet-lagged international Wild Turkey 101,
ML> Dr. Marty Leipzig atheist and land raper. Pertovska Vodka,
ML> Belly Ice Cognac,
ML> Porters, lagers,
ML> stouts & ales.
DC> In the interst of saving disk space, next time, please only
DC> list what you _don't_ drink!
Water. For W.C. Fieldian reasons.
DC> Nice to see you back, planet raper...
Nice to be back. I see that the reported demise from the echo of
Brother Jimmy was rather premature.
... I am Ceppa of Borg...Prepare to character assassinate!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Double features.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 05:46:38
EID:5244 207b2dc0
Dan Ceppa, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to Marty
Leipzig:
-> On 03-24-96 06:20, Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa
ML> ... Now wait a minute... how do we know you're the REAL Angel of
ML> Death?
DC> Do, doo, doo do...
DC> "I'm big, I'm Black and I loom". <- Miracle on 32nd Street, I think,
DC> with Edward G. Robinson, paraphrased.
"The aliens have landed. They're 8' tall, black and they're
pissed!" - R. Williams
... Fundamentalism puts the "fun" back in dysfunctional.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: I went to Ararat and all
|Date: 27 Mar 96 05:47:39
EID:5322 207b2de0
Dan Ceppa, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to Marty
Leipzig:
-> On 03-24-96 06:18, Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> You book of fables also says the Noah's Flood happened. Got
ML> Day 730,000, and *still* no evidence; and there still was none
ML> in Turkey on March 10th (Solly says "Yo".)
DC> Yo! backto Solly!
Loads of fun-n-games over their during their elections. Guess
what? The Islamic Fundies lost big time.
ML> So, how was the Foster's and did you try the ice cream recipe?
DC> The Foster's was great. Found a store locally that handles it.
Indeed, a lucky man.
DC> In fact, they also handle Murphy's Irish Stout. As much as I
DC> like Guinisess, they do a much better job of canning the stuff!
So? How was the ice cream?
... "They do more before nine in the morning than most monsters do all day
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: DOUBLE FEATURES.
|Date: 28 Mar 96 06:27:43
EID:3f0c 207c3360
Judith Bandsma, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to
Marty Leipzig:
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Dan Ceppa <=-
ML> "What if they gave a war and nobody came" and "They shoot
ML> horses, don't they?"
JB> So, when do we get the next installment of 'Leipzig's Travels'?
In this very packet. Parts 1-3, inclusive. (Schiphol is still a
silly place.)
JB> BTW, my oldest son (AF) just got orders to Turkey. He will be there
by
JB> October. Any suggestions as to some fun things to do while there?
Road trips! Always fun, just steer clear of camel and horse
riding swarthies armed with outsized rifles. Museums (museua?)
in Ankara are always a good bet, just dripping with history.
JB> (They have 2 little girls, so make it clean )
Awww...you're no fun anymore.
... Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: More idiots unsullied by the ravanges of evoultion.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 12:32:49
EID:c02a 207b6400
David Worrell, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to
Marty Leipzig:
DW> 24 Mar 96 06:16, Marty Leipzig wrote to Martin Goldberg:
MH>>> Even evolutionists admit there is little fossil evidence of
MH>>> Darwinian evolution. Hence the need to invent punctuated
MH>>> equilibrium.
FR>> He's full of it. Biologists state that biology makes no sense
FR>> if evolution didn't happen and continue to happen. I know of no
FR>> biologist who claims that "there is little fossil evidence of
FR>> Darwinian evolution."
MG>> His error is int he sue of the word "invented". It shows not
MG>> only his ignorance of science but his agenda in defending his
MG>> nonexistant creator.
ML> Someone should inform this fucking retard that Punctuated
ML> Equilibrium is a MODE of Darwinian evolution.
DW> Mikey recently admitted that he's been corresponding with a
DW> creationist who claims to have been on of Dawkins' (or maybe Gould's)
DW> grad students.
Yep. Sure. Are you sure he wasn't a student of Darwin?
DW> The guy may have *been* a grad student, but if his
DW> understanding of evolutionary theory is as shaky as Hardly's, it is
DW> doubtful that he lasted very long.
He may have been a grad student, but a PhysEd degree isn't
terribly germane to the issue.
DW> Is there anything Mikey will not believe, if it is couched in terms
DW> that agree with his beliefs?
I'm surprised he's not a Flat Earther. His big book is.
... Problem with Baptists is they don't hold them under long enough." JAL
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: Pascal's Wager
|Date: 27 Mar 96 12:38:54
EID:6ab7 207b64c0
Dennis Hall, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to Martin
Goldberg:
MG> Let's make it much simpler then....Do you believe in an all powerful
MG> and merciful god?
MG> It's the same thing. Unmitigated mythology.
DH> Pascal's Wager:
DH> I am wagering that God does exist, and you are wagering that He
DH> does not. If I am right, I gain everything, and if I am wrong, I lose
DH> nothing.
Buddah, Odin, Allah and Gitchee Manitou are laughing
uproariously at your choice.
... Promise us anything, but give us Barrabas.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: elvis lution
|Date: 27 Mar 96 12:45:18
EID:6957 207b65a0
Michael Hardy, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to
Monty Arch:
-=> Quoting Monty Arch to Michael Hardy <=-
> MG> The evidence has been presented here many times. Evolution, like
> MG> gravity, is a fact.
> No, it is not. It is a theory to explain facts, facts that can also be
> explained by special creation. It is the preferred theory for people of
MA>
MA> There is physical evidence for evolution: Fossils, comparative
MA> zoology, natural selection. In fact one can see evolution speeded up,
MA> selective breeding and hybridization, mutagenesis of microorganisms,
MA> i.e resistant strains of bacteria to
MA> antibiotics, new strains of cold, flu, and HIV viruses.
MH> Fossils are evidence only that life forms existed which do not exist
MH> today. Comparative zoology is evidence only that some life forms bear
MH> resemblance to other life forms. Natural selection is evidence only
MH> that some existing life forms survive certain conditions better than
MH> other existing life forms. Breeding, hybridization and mutations
MH> among microbes show only variation within kind, not change from one
MH> kind to another. (In fact, breeding is a strike *against* evolution
MH> -- eventually you exhaust the variety available in the gene pool. The
MH> result is weak and sickly inbred life forms, not new life forms.)
MH> NONE of it is evidence that any kind of life form has ever evolved
MH> into any other kind of life form. There are variations within kinds
of
MH> life forms -- breeds, speciation, etc. -- but not transformations to
MH> other kinds.
MH> The fossil record does not support Darwinian gradualism in the least,
MH> which is why some evolutionists have placed their hope in "punctuated
MH> equilibrium." Unfortunately, the fossil record doesn't really support
MH> that either. Life forms appear in the fossil record whole and without
MH> any obvious ancestry.
MH> Which is what you'd expect if they were specially created and have
MH> varied only within kind.
Define, in a biologically, zoologically and taxonomically valid
manner the term "kind"; then we can commence with your
immolation.
... He used to practice Animal Husbandry, until they caught him at it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:22:18
EID:dc5b 207b6ac0
Martin Goldberg, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said
to Marty Leipzig:
SM>> AT least you HAD Scotch.
SM>> All I had was a quart of Jim Beam...........
ML> So you were doubly blessed...
MG> By Whom?
Anyone with taste.
Blessed that he had no scotch.
Blessed^2 that he had some Beam.
... "Oh, fuck!", yelled Pooh, as he found his bourbon had turned to scotch
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Proof's in the putting.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:23:03
EID:dba3 207b6ae0
Martin Goldberg, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said
to Marty Leipzig:
JG>> How very true. God is a spirit.
ML> If God's a spirit, what's his proof?
MG> Pure Ethanol. He's Everclear, Jim.
"Neverclear.", quoth the maven.
... "*Wow*! What type of drinks do you serve here?" - Ford Prefect
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: More idiots unsullied by the ravanges of evoultion.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:23:48
EID:42aa 207b6ae0
Martin Goldberg, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said
to Marty Leipzig:
ML> Someone should inform this fucking retard that Punctuated
ML> Equilibrium is a MODE of Darwinian evolution.
MG> Why don't you take a crack at it. We've all been banging our heads
MG> against the wall on this one far too long. The original post was a
MG> winner about how evolutionists had to "invent" PE as what they knew
MG> was found to be false.
As soon as they define "kind" in a meaningful manner.
... Aggie 7 course meal: an armadillo and a six-pack.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: If there's no Hell, then why is there Fundys?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:24:35
EID:05d0 207b6b00
Martin Goldberg, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said
to Marty Leipzig:
MG>> You have yet to show that hell is real.
ML> Ever been to New Jersey?
MG> When I was in the paint formulation biz,
Paint formulation to syphillis? Now there's an odd tack.
MG> I went to Newark to visit the
MG> R&D center for the company. As I sat with the head of the department
MG> in the hotel lobby waiting for the other guy to show up, he pointed
MG> across some railroad tracks to a large red-brick thing and said "Do
MG> you see that red brick building?". "What building?", I asked. "All
I
MG> see is a pile of rubble."
MG> He looked back and politely informed me that THAT was the plant.
And they were all drunk on cheap scotch...a potted plant.
... Did the Corinthians ever write back?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Scholastic crawfish pie are squared.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:29:03
EID:889b 207b6ba0
Martin Goldberg, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said
to Marty Leipzig:
MG>> Amen. Pass the Etouffe.
ML> I've had my fil‚ of this gumbo.
MG> Okra by me.
Don't complain when some deep-fried crab fingers you.
... I ordered a corned beef sandwich on room service - Bilarubin to me.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Proof's in the putting.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:34:58
EID:4bfd 207b6c40
Robert Jackson, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to
Marty Leipzig:
ML> Martin Goldberg, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip,
ML> said to Jim Germiquet:
JG> How very true. God is a spirit.
ML>
ML> If God's a spirit, what's his proof?
ML>
RJ> Zero.
And that's not normal.
Oh, BTW, the hootch express is delayed by a month or so. I've
got some cohorts in EastSib looking up a real obscure vintage
for your humor.
RJ> ... Happiness is
RJ> 9,10-Didehydo-N,N-diethyl-6-methylergoline-8B-carboxamide
Swiped!
... Gee, there must be hundreds of em! -- Carl Sagan, age 8.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: The Stratum Found!
|Date: 28 Mar 96 05:37:15
EID:8b75 207c2ca0
Don Martin, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said to Marty
Leipzig:
DM> Yo, Marty--
DM> Here is a little something you might enjoy. Whilst you
DM> were gone, I posted my flood stratum file to a newbie with
DM> the following result:
DM> Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
DM> evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
DM> tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic particles
DM> or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the existence of
DM> enormous gravitational forces only explicable by the presence of
DM> a black hole.
MB> Well I can agree on that and thank you for this post I told a Preacher
MB> freind of mine about this to night at his church and he said that our
MB> argument was for nought that the stratum had been found but that the
MB> non-belivers had hid the evidence
"Quick! Alert the Global Scientific Conspiracy! To the Bat-Fax!"
MB> so as not to prove
MB> the Bible.
DM> OK, you guys with the picks and shovels--let's get busy
DM> hiding that stratum!
Where would you hide a stratum? Dig a hole to bury it? Then,
where do you hide the strata you unearthed whilst digging the
hole to hide the other stratum. Why, sure enough, dig another
hole. Now, where do you hide...ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
Job security for the culpable.
DM> Keep working at it until Leipzig says
DM> he can't tell the difference!
A fool's errand, but they're just the bunch to tackle the job!
DM> I asked the newbie directly, and he assures me that the
DM> preacher's name was NOT Stringfellow.
Maybe the RevvedRonnie has been born yet again and adpoted
another nom de idiocy.
DM> Strange. I could have sworn . . .
At them...we often do.
... If I'm an atheist, does that mean that I won't go to heaven?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Ted Hollingshead
|Sub: CONFERENCE
|Date: 28 Mar 96 06:29:16
EID:4494 207c33a0
Ted Hollingshead, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip, said
to Judith Bandsma:
-> TH> Is this a religion conference or a chat conference?
->
-> Neither.
TH> So I've noticed. What is it?
It's actually the "Keep the idiot asking inane questions"
conference.
You fit right in.
... Hmph! Seriousness! Sobriety! A Jedi craves these not!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.20
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 106/113 2 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 24 Mar 96 02:01:00
EID:2154 20781020
MSGID: 1:3819/163 315A37C4
DC> DC> MB> True fact is fact and fiction is fiction. But that is no evidence
DC> MB> that the bible is fiction.
DC> DC>by providing evidence that the Flood occured. Got any?
DC> MB> Not yet am working on it Git back to you if I find any.
DC>Trust me, I'm not holding my breath...
Good Ideal.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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