God Damned Fundies!
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 26 Mar 96 10:39:00
EID:8ef5 207a54e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D122E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 12:00, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> So, Lee, just where is this "God Detector" and what gods has it
DC> detected? Is the device registered in the US Patent Department,
DC> and what is it's patent number?
LW> instrument that could be patented. Detecting God is a matter of direct
LW> experience on the spiritual level. Scientific instruments are unable
to
So, trot that god of your's out here...
LW> detect God because their field of usefulness is the material level--and
LW> God is not a material entity.
And, unlike your god, you can interact with the real world.
Now, demonstrate where you, a physical being, can interact with your
god, a non-material entity of no consequence.
... Belief, believe, believes...conjugates of the verb "to blindly accept"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 26 Mar 96 15:27:00
EID:7eeb 207a7b60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D122F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 09:09, Al Schroeder got back to Judith Bandsma
JB> of Guess Who?
AS> you weren't really involved. I'm drawing a total blank here.
AS> Can you name some of their songs?
_American Woman_
... "No sugar tonight in my coffee, no sugar tonight in my tea.." G.Who
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:06:00
EID:703d 207aa8c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1230
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 04:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> the most improbable explanations in PREFERENCE to believing in a
AS> miracle?
DC> Improbable? A "miracle" is the most improbable explanation that
DC> there is. There are many better explanations than that, including
AS> Then we just have to believe in a wide spread schism from the
AS> original believers in the Jerusalem Church, in your view, where the
The schism is believable, as the Nag Hammadi Scrolls reveal. The
winner in the contest was the current mode of belief. It is only
by good fortune that those scrolls survided to this day, as the
others that they allude to were destroyed by the winning factions.
AS> Republicians rewriting hisotry to say that Lincoln was killed by Booth
AS> when he died in his sleep, it's possible, but not an explanation you
There are more than enough documents and eyewitnesses to the
Lincoln assassination to verify the claim. Culpability in
a conspiracy was harder to show, though Dr Mudd was convicted
of being part of it and was most likely innocent of anything
other than performing his duties as a doctor.
AS> would give ANY credence to...that so many records could be faked or
AS> tampered with....unless you are using it for the express reason of
Your documents have been faked in various fashions.
The JFK assasination is perhaps the most momentous event in the
AS> sixties. Look how many different accounts we have of the events of
AS> THAT day, and how not all of them agree. (Just ask John Prewitt, for
Yes, there is a lot of controversy surrounding that event. The
major problem of resolving it ends, or rather starts, with the
assassination of Oswald. However, they key fact that Kennedy
was shot is indisputable. The evidence to support a single
gunman and a magic "miracle" bullet do not fit the facts very
well. There is a conspiracy, but it may never be known just
how was involved. Even if it does come out, it will probably
be far too late to do anything about the perpetrators, other
than to know how the facts really fit together.
... "A great warrior? Wars not make one great." - Yoda
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:11:00
EID:bf90 207aa960
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1231
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 06:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Of course it decreases _his_ noise level. He doesn't have to answer
DC> pointed questions that undermine his "analogies".
AS> Now, he's certainly taken it on the chin from a lot of people here.
It's his boxing style. He leads with it.
AS> If he wants to take a vacation from certain key posters, I can't fault
AS> him...anymore than I fault Hector for evidently dropping out for
Unlike Hector, or most of the other regulars, he simply chosen to
hide his head in the sand. To compound the matter, he has chosen
to brag about while hiding behind his List.
... Holy_Smoke: The ONE, TRUE HUMOR (c): Scott Bear
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jon Vandenburg
|Sub: Jon Vandenberg
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:13:00
EID:01c9 207aa9a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1232
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 06:32, George Rudzinski got back to All
JV> only SysOp in our net that has allowed george ongoing BBS access in
JV> recent years.
GR> Jon fails to point out that I only accessed Fidonet from Glen. As all
GR> of you folks know, my point of origin has always been BCH.
Well, Jon, what do you have to say about this?
... +Origin: Crosby croons for Hanukah: Bing of the Jews
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: LEGEND
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:21:00
EID:8b49 207aaaa0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1233
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 06:01, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Thanks. I can resist anything, except temptation, especially puns.
DC> That's why most of us are really here after all!
AS> Yes, there is no reason to be cross with me. Since this is about
AS> religion, there is no reason not to use religion as puns. You'd have
AS> to be a saint to refuse and take it on the Islam.
I would have thought that that was B'nai-th you, Buddha could
be mistaken.
AS> True. Even Jesus was shown wanting to literally make a prophecy come
AS> true, by getting the ass to ride into Jerusalem, thus fulfilling a
DC> It does, hoever, make it much more suspect. After, you just noted
DC> that, in you opinion, the event _was_ staged. How many other
AS> Some could have been, but the predictions were in general so vague,
AS> that it's hard to pin down. Quite frankly, the predictions about the
That's just the point. Any "good" prophet leaves enough leeway to
may just about any event fit the "prophecy".
DC> Which goes with the Jewish sub-cult of the original group. A brother
DC> is a potential heir to the leadership of that group.
AS> True. And people were claiming kinship to Jesus in that area well
AS> into the third century, via the brothers and sisters of JEsus.
I'd be surprised if there aren't a few cults that the leaders harken
their lineage back to Jesus. "Evidence" of antiquity still carries
awe amount the masses.
... CBN, where we define truth, and you get to believe it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:26:00
EID:8b49 207aab40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1234
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 06:03, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> much may be about right. That'll give you the leftovers to make
DC> the Deep Fried ones.
AS> Sounds simple enough...
It depends on how many potatoes you make, though, as well as
how good and how much gravy you have for them to soak up!
DC> The batter itself in nothing more than a crepe batter and is
AS> Hmmm. Sounds good. Barb isn't doing any charity volunteer work, BTW,
AS> she's helping out with a local theater that she helps supports.
Is she a post or a pillar? Good thing it wasn't an athletic
event...
BTW, she could always try small batches of it to get the hang
of it. My directions are "good", but it took me nearly a
month to figure out the original procedure. Hopefully, I
didn't miss anything. If I did, you'll have a lot of teeny,
tiny deepfried peices of potato!
... SPAM: meat. See also Squirrels, Possum And Mice
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: misogynist
|Date: 26 Mar 96 21:28:00
EID:e37a 207aab80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 894D1235
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 09:39, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> Marilyn was the 'silly woman'. I'm the 'silly female twit'.
DC> Thanks for straightening that out! ....then again, who's the
DC> "silly b***h? Seems like that is Sue Armstrong.
SA> That's "silly bITCh", thank you very much.
What can I say... Censorship really messes things up!
And, you are weLCOme!
... Fundy Logic: Lie 1 + Lie 2 + Lie 3 = "God's Truth"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Mike Carr
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 26 Mar 96 07:21:09
EID:99a1 207a3aa0
MSGID: 1:284/120 7b032559
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-> > , You trafic in faith everyday.
->
-> False statement.
I said you traffic in faith everyday and that is true. It's divine faith
in which you don't traffic and your reasoning is unsound and your doctrine
is simply to glib. It is also elitist to think that anyone who believes
in God is unintelligent. Many of the worlds greatest minds have held divine
faith and used human reason to prove God exists. I realize that you mistrust
reason in that area so I won't bother to list the various proofs (I assume
that since you're intelligent, you've studied them) of it.
-> All the indirect evidence on Earth is totally worthless without corro
-> of DIRECT evidence. Not only would you have to show me that the claim.
Hmmm. How about the order of the universe?
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Mike Carr
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 26 Mar 96 07:26:28
EID:99a1 207a3b40
MSGID: 1:284/120 7b03256a
TID: InterEcho 1.17 6E011262
-> > "Remains Established", come on! You are a contingent being, a
-> > receipient of life or existence. All material beings are. Close
-> > eyes for a moment and imagine a universe populated only with recei
-> > of life and nowhere an originator.
->
-> I don't need to "close my eyes". The world you describe IS the world
-> out there.
->
-> Just because there are people IN that world who believe without real
-> doesn't make their funny internal feeling (faith) any more factual. I
-> means they believe -- and nothing else. - The point is that you are a
contingent being as a receipient of life. Follow that daisy chain back
until you find the giver. We can't all be receipients. BTW, The Mass is
heaven on earth and heaven is the destination each of us should aim for.
Come early for a taste of heaven. Peace to you Michael
--- InterEcho 1.17
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 26 Mar 96 13:29:43
EID:c520 207a6ba0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31583c7f
Jim Germiquet said "AVOIDING THE QUESTION" to Judith Bandsma,
adding:
JG> Easy, Obesity is real, Obesity is hell ...therefore Hell is real !
JB> Fathead!
JG> I really don't know why you stoop to name calling to avoid conceding
JG> when a point has been made.
What is the most fun about you is your arrogant
assumption that you have MADE some sort of point, when all
you have done is utter a fallacious syllogism (excluded
middle) on the pattern of "God is love: love is blind:: Ray
Charles is God", one formerly suspected in a weak attempt at
humor. With the above, you demonstrate that you take your
silliness (and yourself) seriously.
And they think that repairing Maytags is a lonely
occupation. . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 26 Mar 96 13:35:49
EID:50b0 207a6c60
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31583c80
Jim Germiquet said "OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"" to Judith Bandsma,
adding:
JG> Exactly and at the time these "canals" were discovered, I was told
JG> about them. Later the opinion was that these "canals" were the result
JG> of the instrument being used to study the planet.
JB> I absolutely refuse to believe that you are over 100 years old.
JG> Eesh, again you pick on some irrelevent technical point and completely
JG> ignore the concept within the message .
Your "message" is so stupidly stated that it has no
concept to ignore.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: WACO WEB SITE
|Date: 26 Mar 96 20:30:49
EID:3642 207aa3c0
Whilst masticating on , Al Schroeder (1:116/19)
wrote to Alan Hess:
AS> On the other hand, she used to cover news. Now she is an industry, and
can
AS> run a show about her loss (or gain) of weight. She's become famous for
AS> trivialities.
Isn't that basically how all talk show hosts get famous? Oprah's no different
than the rest. Give her some credit, though - she's turned her show away
from featuring nutcases and fruitcakes. Of course, that's hurt her ratings,
because viewers want to see nutcases and fruitcakes.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 25 Mar 96 08:02:00
EID:a238 20794040
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423C52C
DC> RB> Wouldn't that be a 'twitorectomy' and require the services
DC> go to the doctor to take care of a Saladbaratoma...
RB> Then, Bustilloz will have to do something about her cattyracts.
DC> Right after Al get past his comicsitis attack..
I'm not sure what kind of ailments assail you...
... Don't ask me. The cats are in charge around here.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 25 Mar 96 09:06:00
EID:5f35 207948c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423CFF4
AS> I didn't say the fragment was penned by him personally. It was a
AS> copy, just a copy that indicates it was around at a fairly young
DC> Ok, so maybe it's a copy... A copy of what? Without a predating
DC> version, there is no way to justify that it is a copy of anything.
Could be. But it would be kind of an odd coincidence, that the oldest
fragment we have just happens to be the original. Especially since it was
found in EGYPT, not Palestine or Rome or Cyprus.
AS> time...just like we don't have any of the plays of Shakespeare from
AS> Will's own hand, but we do have plenty of early folios that work to
DC> I thought that the copies of the originals are what led scholars
DC> to think that at least some of the plays attributed to Willy were
DC> not penned by him...
I'm PRETTY sure that we don't have the original plays in Will's own hand,
although I believe we have some documents signed by him, legal ones. I
believe they compare the vast number of folios printed within his lifetime
and reach a consensus. Another thing sacrificed to the fire, my complete
Shakespeare. (Although some of his poetry...I believe there was a
discovery a few years ago which might be genuine Shakespeare.)
But yes, if you get something like Rowse's ANNOTATED SHAKESPEARE--I
thought it a poor version, but they will discuss in some detail how
certain copies have variations from the main text, and that what we see
is
the version the majority of texts carry. That for at the very least, most
of the plays, we have no originals.
AS> Well, James and John (the sons of Zebedee) are the only two
AS> disciples not mentioned by name in the Gospel of John who are
DC> Wait a minute there.... You have 2 people, not mentioned by
DC> name, yet you know there names?
Process of elimination. James and John are mentioned very prominently in
the other Gospels. The Gospel of John mentions all of them BUT those two,
but gives prominence to an unnamed "disciple Jesus loved best". From the
other Gospels, it seems most likely to be John...and of course, the writer
of the Gospel of John claims to BE the "disciple Jesus loved best" (I want
to see a Gospel by the disciple Jesus "just barely tolerated") and is
written in the same style as 1 John, where the writer explicitedly calls
himself "John".
AS> mentioned prominately in other gospels. The silence is significant,
I
AS> think. It's a literary deduction, but a permissable one, surely.
DC> And, just why didn't the author know all of the desciples names? It
DC> generally follows that the most mentioned are the most siginficant.
DC> Yet, you have 2 people, unmentioned, and they are given credit
DC> for the whole thing?
Again: same writing style as 1 John, where John is named as the writer.
It's not implied that the author DIDN'T know the name, but that he didn't
name them...either out of modesty, out of vanity ("the disciple Jesus
loved best" sounds more impressive than John), whatever.
DC> However, Al, the records of Pilate are extant and do not reflect
DC> in any way the bible story of the xification.
AS> WHAT???????????????????????????????
AS> WHERE????
AS> Seriously Dan, can you direct me to a reference? As far as I know,
AS> other than the mention in Josephus and the NT, and the coins found
DC> Try _Decptions and Myths of the Bible_, by Lloyd M. Graham ISBN
DC> 0-8065-1124-9, p. 343. Rabbi Wise, in the 19th Century searched
DC> those very archives and found nothing to evidence that the
DC> supposed trial ever too place.
Roman records? Jewish records? Okay, okay, I'll look it up. Just out of
curiosity, does it mention OTHER writings of Pilate? To the best of my
knowledge, the only evidence we have of Pilate save for the writings in
the NT and Josephus is some coins found in the mid-20th cnetury.
And I'm curious about Asimov's relative silence on same. If there were
other records of Pilate's that could not be disputed and there was a
gaping silence here, I WOULD regard that as suspicious but, by the same
token, I think he would too...and would have mentioned that. Ditto quite
a
few other skeptical authors I have read.
AS> contemporary accouts of Pilate. Are you saying we have the actual
AS> REPORTS that Pilate wrote concerning his administration of Palestine?
DC> If I'm reading it correctly, the court records reflect absolutely
DC> nothing about the alledged trial.
And they do about other trials? Do they mention either the Egyptian or
Theudas, both of whom are mentioned both in the NT and Josephus as
Messianic figures who were prosecuted, I wonder?
AS> don't mention that, and if they were available, I would think they
AS> would mention those records.
DC> You now have that reference...
Definitely heading for the library this Saturday. Will keep you posted...
... Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORM
|Date: 25 Mar 96 00:09:00
EID:80e3 20790120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423D332
DC> Not a bad choice, but my preference would seriously be Goldie Hawn.
AS> You and Kurt Russell, who is living with her, I believe.
DC> They did a great movie in _Overboard!_
They also have had a great couple of kids together, I believe.
AS> Ah, you're just "sucking up" to us theists (well, Lynda has been
DC> Funny, Mikey doens't seem to hold me in the same regard... ;)
That conjures up a picture of you and Mickey that I am desperately trying
to get rid of...
AS> accused so often of "sucking up" to atheists that I think she will get
AS> a kick out of the oppostie reaction.)...
DC> Well, a good chuckle is better than a kick in the groin, I always
DC> say.
Anytime.
AS> reserve it for those who REALLY deserves it. Like Grigor-Scott.
DC> He deserves the kick in the groin!
You sure that he has anything to hurt there?
... If everything seems to go right, check your zipper!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: DAYS
|Date: 25 Mar 96 00:01:00
EID:9d17 20790020
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423D72E
AS> But...wouldn't that be smaller...? Oh, well, I get the meaning
AS> anyway. But if you were TRULY masochistic, as your handle implies,
AS> you would be
AS> cheering the bad days, wouldn't you?
MM> Actually. some bad days I do cheer. If they create changes in the
MM> schedule or activities so that lots of good days follow. (Sneaky form
MM> of masochism.)
Anybody who would cut warts off in public is definitely pretty tough, I
agree...
... Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 26 Mar 96 08:09:00
EID:9779 207a4120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423DC10
AS> I was making fun of your typo, Anthony. Obviously you missed the
AS> point.
AG> Yes, I'm solly about that.
AS> Anthony, just about everyone in that part of the world are part of
AS> the Semitic peoples, both Arab and Hebrew.
AG> Yes, all EXCEPT the Jews, the vast majority of whom are Gentile stock
AG> with not one drop of Semitic blood.
And you can prove this with DNA testing? Of course, then you would have
to
define the charecteristics that define "Semitic". Many contemporary Jews
claim descent from David, and can produce better pedigrees buttressed by
more records than most descendents of William the Conqueror, despite the
fact that William lived two thousand years later.
AS> However, historically to be "anti-Semitic" is to discriminate
AS> between the people who call themselves Jewish.
AG> But this is not honest. The vast majority of those who call themselves
AG> `Jews' are NON-Semitic and ANIT-Semitic.
But you can't prove that. And before you trot out the "Jewish
Encyclopedia" you are so fond of, you might consult some of the Jewish
family trees in Burke's peerage, no slouch at geneaology, which
nevertheless accept the claims of some of the Jewish families who have
married into the peerage, stretching back to Bible days.
The truth is, Anthony, you CANNOT prove absolutely that the people you
claim are "Semitic" as opposed to the modern day Jews are any more
"Semitic" than the modern-day Jews. An intervening of three thousand years
and the drifting of peoples make such points, at best, moot. As silly as
asking a modern Englishman whether he is a Norman or a Saxon. It has been
estimated that practically any white person with European blood is likely
descendend from Charlemagne (and many non-whites as well, casual bastardy
always bound to be far greater than records indicate) due to the increase
in descendents. One person has two children, each of their children has
two, which makes four, each of their children have two, which makes eight
descendents...it spreads on and on. Probably EVERYONE in that area of the
world are descendents of Abraham, and probably both you and I are also,
despite Jewish attempts only to marry Jews.
AS> I have a cousin who converted to Judaism.
AG> That won't work today.
You let God worry about that, okay?
AS> If someone said a disparaging remark to her about her Judaism, it
AS> would be an "anti-Semitic" remark, despite the fact that my cousins
AS> is mainly Welsh and English by descent.
AG> Well that is an intentional perversion of language which the false or
AG> self-styled Jews employ.
And the rest of the English-speaking world. Except for a few bigots.
AS> Quite frankly, Anthony, I see the Israelis as much victims these
AS> days, especially with the wave of bombings,
AG> You know, they stole that land from the Hebrew (Semitic) Israelite and
AG> Arab residents (also Semitic). Have you ever bothered to discover what
AG> happened to their victims? Also, we read that those who live by the
AG> sword die by the sword. Modern Israel was founded on terrorism and
AG> murder and certainly not by faith as was Israel of old.
(Gentle smile.) Are you saying there was no violence when the Holy Land
was first given to the Jews?
AS> I do not attach much importance to bloodline in this matter.
AG> But God does. And that's all that matters.
Unfortunately, Anthony, I don't think you have a direct line to him. No
matter what you think. John is very explicit about those who hate their
brothers, and other passages make it clear that "brothers" includes other
men.
AS> Jesus said God could make the very stones into sons of Abraham if He
AS> chose.
AG> And He has. Christians are Abraham's seed by the baptism of the Holy
AG> Ghost (or new birth). But Israel is forsaken until the times of the
AG> Gentiles be come in at which time God will deal with 12,000 from each
AG> tribe. The whole basis of the Bible is _blood_. The life is in the
AG> blood.
Unfortunately, if you will study the OT, you will find that adoption
(which is provided for) entails the adoptee being part of the bloodline,
in legal fiction if not actual geneaology. Hence the part of Jesus'
geneaology that actually refers to Joseph is not irrelevant, in Jewish
eyes. Jesus was still "heir" to Joseph and all his ancestors, even though
Joseph was not the literal father.
AS> I only see bias and delusion and hate for your brother.
AG> That's because you have not taken what I have written back to God's
AG> Word.
I have indeed, Anthony. And I find nothing but distortion and bigotry. I
found a web page with Brother Branham's teaching. It disturbed me more
than you know, that someone would be regarded a Prophet who teaches such
things contrary to Jesus' teachings. But still, it was foretold that many
would claim to speak in His name, and Jesus would know them not.
AS> Jesus believed the Jews of His time were His brothers, and the
AS> Samaritans His neighbor.
AG> But he also said those who were Spiritually sons of Abraham would
AG> receive Him and not seek to kill Him. read John 8.
And He also said, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. If
Jesus on the cross forgives all those who were responsible for His death,
Jew and Gentile--are you going then to say that His forgiveness was not
absolute? Are you going to second-guess Jesus?
AS> But I only see divisiveness and a foolish misuse of God's word to
AS> justify your own pet theories and prejudice, on your part.
AG> That's because you lack the Spirit.
With all due respect, Anthony, many have claimed the Spirit...from nuts
like Koresh and Jim Jones, to those who I think honestly are moved by Him.
The Pope claims to be moved by the Holy Spirit. Yet he would disagree with
you on numerous points. How to choose between you? The only way I can do
it is by reading the Word and seeing which falls closest to Jesus'
teachings. I think you BOTH fail the test. But I think the Pope is closer
than you are.
And what you preach concerning Jews or, those who call themselves Jews,
if you prefer, has been the sort of thing that nearly brought barbarism
to
the civilized world on a scale unprecedented, some fifty years ago in
Germany. I can only hope someday you will lift those willful blinders and
see what historians teach us about the Holocaust...read people like John
Tolland, Elie Weisal, and others...and realize it is neither a conspiracy
nor a fraud, but honest truth verified by hundreds of thousands.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: All
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 25 Mar 96 01:07:00
EID:6335 207908e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423DEFE
-=> Quoting Anthony Grigor-scott to Mark Craig <=-
AG> My Brother, we have to pass through _all_ of the stages God has
Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together. Witness the birth
of the new Nazi party.
... Nie wieder Faschismus! (in English: Fascism, never again) ...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 25 Mar 96 01:04:00
EID:4c40 20790880
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423E214
AS> Again, C.S. Lewis. "God does not shake miracles into Nature at
AS> random like a pepper-caster. They come on great occasions; they
AS> are found at the great ganglions of history--not of political
AS> and social history, but of that spiritual history which cannot
AS> be fully known by men.
JH> I love that last clause he tacks onto it.
JH> It renders his entire claim totally untestable.
Not necessarily, although acknowledging that there is no way to test where
the spiritual history is at such a ganglion. But it does imply that
miracles cluster together, or, if you like, reports of miracles cluster
together. Which DOES seem to be the case. There are skeptical ages and
there are ages which have reports of all manner of bizarreness.
JH> "It's not random! It follows a pattern you can not perceive!"
You could follow the patterns of reports of miracles. While granting that
there are miracles reported in every age, some have more than others. Is
there any sort of pattern? Does it follow any sort of external
circumstances...do reports of miracles follow economic hard times, or
times of little education? Or are they seperate? This would be interesting
even from a sociological point of view. For instance, I don't believe in
astrology. Around the turn of the century, nobody but a few occultist
kooks believed in astrology, but since the sixties there are quite a few
people who take it seriously, even presidents and presidents' wives.
What triggers such?
... "Miracles are not so cheap as all that."--Father Brown.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FRIED ICE CREAM
|Date: 25 Mar 96 02:09:00
EID:b251 20791120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423F538
AS> Barb experiments a lot. Most of the time they are hits, but there are
AS> a few misses, too. I wish I had gotten my father's recipe for hash
AS> browns before he died.
DC> Me too... I come close but never have been able to get them to
DC> come out "right". As much as recipes are a science, the technique
DC> in making them _IS_ and art!
I know my mother tried...and failed, using the same recipe. With Pop, it
was definitely an art. But I might try to get it from her, what she
remembers, the next time I talk with her, and perhaps you could experiment
with it and perhaps get closer.
AS> He would cook them all afternoon in an iron
AS> skillet,
DC> Good choice of weapons, as my best meals are made in one!
Yes. My mother was a passable cook, but the only thing she was excellent
on was fried chicken. Pop would usually cook the weekend meals, and cook
pot roasts with slices of onions and nude potatoes, or spaghetti (my wife
uses a variation of the recipe) or chili (the blister your mouth kind) or
the hash browns with chicken breasts cooked in white wine...
AS> things mixed in. Pop would make them once or twice a month, and it was
AS> one of those things I could have three or four helpings on.
DC> Best I can say is keep on trying and making minor variations. It
DC> may be in the spices, or it may be in the type of potatoes that
DC> you use. It may be also on the shortening or the temperature
DC> you cook it at.
We'll keep trying. BTW, Barb said I was the best husband for a young wife
to have, because I like my meat...uh...very well done. And most everything
else. It's genetic. My maternal grandfather would go into a restaurant and
say, "I'd like a piece of toast...burned. Not well done. Burned." If
someone zaps their popcorn in the microwave too long, they bring it to me.
So if Barb accidentally burned the meal, unless it was absolutely
charcoal, I usually ate and enjoyed it. She's gotten a lot better, though.
(I must admit I am a lousy cook. I used to cook for my grandmother, but
it
would be Stouffer's, usually.)
DC> Then, too, it may just be how you remember how he made them
DC> for _you_. (Trust me in this, as my cousins claim I make my
DC> raisin bread at as well as my Dad, but I personally don't think
DC> so. His was and always will be better than my best attempt
DC> at his forte, even if I have matched or even exceeded it.)
Could be. But I know my mother couldn't match his.
... Confuse people: start making sense.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 25 Mar 96 02:08:00
EID:e6fe 20791100
MSGID: 1:116/19 0423FEA2
AS> Okay, I'll admit my ignorance here. What was so controversial about
AS> Saint Christopher?
DM> That's "Mister" Christopher to you, ever since--I believe--the
DM> 70s. The Vatican looked into the backgrounds of some of their more
DM> miraculous personages and concluded in Chris' case that not only did
DM> the evidence fall short of supporting his sainthood, but also it was
DM> insufficient to support the guy's very existence. Not that such
DM> stirrings of officialdom keeps him from lounging and leaning upon
DM> the billowing breasts of millions of good Catholic girls in need of
DM> his special services, nonexistent though they may be.
Oh, yeah, the great Saint shakeout. I think St. George got disalloweed at
the same time.
DM> Later, you say to me:
DM> understood by native speakers of those languages? I can
DM> sound very French so long as no sneaky Francophones are in
DM> the audience.
AS> Acts 2:1-13. The foreigners in Jerusalem each heard them speaking in
AS> their own language, Parthians, Medes, Egyptian, Romans, etc.
DM> One man's Mede is another man's Persian.
I wish I had said that. I was Egypted.
AS> It seems
AS> to be a VERY different experience from what modern charismatic
AS> churches experience, where one person is basically babbling and
AS> another one is telling the rest that they are saying the Gettysburg
AS> address.
DM> As Linda explained it, it was more Babelfish-like (and here we
DM> thought that Adams was making that stuff up . . . )
As I remember her post, she acknowledged the difference between the
Pentecostal tongues experience from Paul's, but I admit I don't have it
in
front of me. (In the description of them, anyway...)
AS> I'm sure, since condoms were not widely circulated or bought. Many
AS> of them consisted of the pre-1900 equivelent of the woman who has a
AS> child and leaves it in a dumpster. But, I think if you will look at
AS> the statistics, it is a TINY fraction of the population and...more
AS> importantly...not condoned by society as a whole.
DM> 1.5 million abortions annually is a TINY fraction of a
DM> population of 260 million, yet there are some who get all worked up
DM> about it. And infanticide was institutionalized in the 18th and 19th
Well, but Don...IF you regard the fetus as a human being, then it would
only take four years to equal the amount of Jews killed in the Holocaust.
Again, it is a matter of definition. If you regard the fetus as a human
being, it is a murder, if you regard it as a part of the mother, what's
the big deal? And I think it is an impasse of axioms, of definitions,
rather than anything else.
DM> centuries in the form of foundling hospitals. In England, these
DM> farmed out the kids to "baby farmers" who got something like ten
DM> shillings to care for the tad and who would come back for another in
DM> a couple of months, saying "the last poor tyke just never thrived
DM> and went to his Maker." Usually it never thrived because of a
DM> liberal use of "Mother's Friend" (gin) to keep it quiet. Napolean
Although didn't they perscribe alchohol for a lot of different things,
like snakebite, even when it didn't do any good, in the 19th century?
Besides, I have a question...ah...but I think I'll hold it till the end.
DM> established the French version, which included a sort of lazy susan
DM> device in the wall for dropping off unwanted babies anonymously, and
DM> since the French didn't believe in the use of gin, the kids mostly
DM> just starved. Both systems were kept very busy and had a mortality
DM> rate of about 90%. Country folk, without such urban niceties, simply
Are you saying those institutions had a mortality rate of 90%, or the
countries had a mortality rate of 90% for infants?
DM> drowned infants in ditches (you'll remember the witch's formula from
DM> Shakespeare's Macbeth calling for body parts of babies "ditch
DM> delivered by a drab", referring to the practice of dropping and
DM> drowning in a one-stop service), or "overlay" them in bed (cf
DM> Marilyn Burge on this heading in today's bag here).
But...quite frankly, Don...aren't we stretching this by calling this birth
control? This is infanticide, clearly.
DM> The kids who survived in England were typically apprenticed at
DM> age 6 to the only trade that paid for (rather than demanding payment
DM> of) apprentices: the trade of chimney sweeping. Our Republicans did
DM> not invent cost-cutting techniques for public welfare systems,
DM> embrace those techniques though they may. In England, the kid rarely
DM> survived the apprenticeship period (which is why the demand for
DM> replacements was so great. Those who did often developed amusing
DM> diseases like cancer of the scrotum from the soot. At least that
DM> would help hold their birthrates down without resort to abortion.
But of course, that was true of orphans and many another child not reared
by a family. Child labor was common. Does that mean that the average child
under such awful conditions would have rather not been born, and would
meet death gladly?
Not really.
AS> If you think the
AS> average US citizen of 1850 said, "Oh, by the way, my wife had
AS> another child the other day, but we didn't need another mouth to
AS> feed, so I offed the brat," you are sadly mistaken...and if they DID,
AS> they would be looked on with horror and as a murderer.
DM> Why would you accuse me of thinking such a moronic thing? For
DM> one thing, the pattern usually did not involve anyone about capable
DM> of saying "My wife . . . ", as it was usually the act of some
DM> wretched woman acting alone; for another, people do many things
DM> without talking about them. You don't hear many people saying today,
DM> "Oh, by the way, we whipped the wife down to the abortion clinic for
DM> a little drape and scrape t'other day," now DO you? Yet abortions
DM> are legal in this country, the way infanticide never was.
I know many women who have had abortions. I paid for one myself (a female
relative, the father was a waiter without a penny). Others who are quite
frank about the abortions if you asked about them. Not so for
infanticides, then OR now.
DM> No, infanticide was not socially condoned in the 19th century;
DM> it was mostly not talked about. The one exception to this was its
DM> use as a plot element in novels of the time (indicating something
DM> about how widespread the practice was: plot elements depend upon
DM> real events, not unthinkable ones), often by way of contrast to show
DM> how much more honourable it was for a single, pregnant girl to
DM> committ suicide than to hurl a newborn into a millrace, and the
DM> moralists probably had a point there, if you overlook the fact that
DM> the impact upon the fetus/child was essentially the same.
Yet Goethe's FAUST has Faust's love (which I have unaccontably forgotten
the name of. Rosamunde? alas for the books I lost in the fire..) as having
drowned her baby that was Faust's bastard. And even implied that she was
saved, despite that sin on her.
DM> Besides, infanticide was largely the province of the Lower
DM> Orders, whose peccadilloes, so long as they did not harm their
DM> betters, were often shrugged at, just as white Americans today often
DM> shrug at black crime that does not affect "the nice neighborhoods."
True. But of course MURDERS are largely the province of the lower orders,
too, despite such exceptions as the Menendez brothers.
AS> You have to go to a pre-Chrisian culture to find
AS> ones that routinely approved of exposing unwanted children,
DM> Christians have ever preferred the covert to honesty.
Well...would you rather we openly approve of infanticide? There have
always been murders and thefts. Should we approve them because they have
always been with us?
AS> with the exception of the medieval
AS> superstition of the changeling, and the only way they justified that
AS> was by saying the child was not really a human at all.
DM> Now, would you care to cite ONE example of a Greek exposed child
DM> OTHER than Oedipus? If you cannot (and I rather expect you cannot,
DM> as who the hell knows of any other than he?) consider the parallals:
DM> you cite a medieval superstition as a half-assed "justification",
DM> while Liaus and Jocasta acted upon the advice of the orthodox
DM> religion of the day. The forecast (from Appollo, god of truth, and
DM> certainly in this case spot on) was that the kid would kill his
DM> father and marry his mother.. In horror, they nailed (some versions
DM> say "bound") the kid's ankles together and had him exposed on a
DM> rock, feeling that his death was far preferable (to himself as well
DM> as to them) to his fulfillment of the prophecy (and if you had the
DM> word of the god you believe in that a kid of yours was going to do
DM> such a thing, would you do any differently?). The only problem with
DM> the plan was that it didn't work--it was so hard to get good help
DM> back then: if you wanted a kid exposed on a rock, you had to do it
DM> for yourself. Had Laius done so, we would not today have an Oedipus
DM> story, as the kid would NOT have grown up to kill his father and
DM> marry his mother.
DM> Now, barring any other examples on your part, how does this
DM> comport with a society (one without the blessings of a higher
DM> Christian morality) that "routinely approved of exposing unwanted
DM> children." In what way is the Oedipus story "routine?"
Well...first off, there are numerous stories of children being exposed in
MYTHOLOGY, which is all you are talking about, even Greek mythology. It's
part of the classic Campbellian pattern...child sent away to die, found
by
kindly foster parents, becomes prince who returns, etc. But I wasn't
talking about Oedipus, since no one can prove he existed.
I was thinking more of Robin Lane Fox's work of history, PAGANS AND
CHRISTIANS, concerning the gradual move from paganism to Christianity
between the first and third centuries. Fox, a historian of impeccable
credentials, talked of the practice of exposing, for instance, unwanted
female children, which resulted in a gender imbalance among grown adults,
and thought that was one reason Christianity gained such swift converts
among women, to the point that some Romans regarded Christianity as a
"woman's religion"...even as some see the Goddess-related religions today.
I don't have the book in front of me, but if you like I can check into it
this weekend, but Fox is a nontheist historian of impeccable credentials,
whom Larry Sites, for instance, has quoted and used quite frequently. I
assume that Fox used records from funerary inscriptions and such. He
sounded quite definite on that point, however. (Sounding much like the
practice that was common both in China and some parts of India until
recently.) If you like, I would certainly be glad to check his references,
but in a tome that was not at all complimentary of Christianity in most
places, I had no reason to doubt him.
... If you see any misspelled words it HAS to be line noise.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE ON THE WEB!
|Date: 26 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:469f 207a4800
MSGID: 1:116/19 04240258
AS> As one older person to another...when you first log on, the option
AS> that says, "pray for us"---that brings up an email form to send your
AS> comments to.
DM> That would certainly be the last button _I_ would push. You can
DM> also click on Ryan's name. However, the Web set-up at work is not
DM> fully implemented, and I generally cannot do email through it.
I understand. I personally was expecting some sort of trap...I dunno, the
Devil appearing and going, "you rang?" Or a big sign going, "WHAT SOULS,
YOU IDIOT???"
AS> BTW, saw your picture at Ryan Shaw's unofficial web site. I think
AS> you're probably the most distinguished looking of the pictured ones.
DM> At my age, distinguished is easy; the hard part is avoiding
DM> extinguished.
Lest your life be relinquished.
... A child educated only at school is an uneducated child. - Santayana
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: LAST RITES
|Date: 25 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:c11a 20791920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04240730
AS> Hmmm. But don't they give that AS they are dying? Not after they are
AS> dead. A suicide would already be dead, if they succeeded in suicide.
DC> That maybe true, but the Catholic Church views that a bit differently:
DC>
DC> It gives absolution retroactively. Extreme Unction used to be
DC> used only for the living, but it has been made available to those
DC> that are already dead. And, as I understand it, suicide is now
DC> treated as a mental problem, allowing them to be given the
DC> sacrament.
Was it so in Hitler's time, I wonder? I know there were cases even in the
sixties of bodies being moved in Catholic graveyards because they found
out it was suicide, not accident, as they first proposed.
DC> NOt sure when the rules changed, but it has been available for
DC> quite sometime. After the all, the "Hir goes to hell because
DC> hir killed hirself" was not exactly comforting to the family
DC> of the deceased.
You got THAT right.
... Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: MESSAGE TO ASMODEUS
|Date: 25 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:77da 20791920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04240C76
AS> And if they put each other on their twit lists, how would we decide
AS> who won?
DC> That's easy! We count the posts not to but about the other twit.
DC> The one with the most messages about the other twit wins. A
DC> modification of the 10 point must system could rate style in
DC> their verbiage against the other.
Echo Olympics. Freestyle Message Irgnoring. But...what if Tonya Harding
comes in and tries to break their typing fingers?
AS> We need someone who is agressively adamant against even the
DC> In the above scenario, we get the final combatants into a
DC> no-twit, winner takes all. We put it on P[l]ay-For-Dough and
DC> rake in some big box offices. With luck, it will last longer
DC> that the last Tyson fight and at maybe have participants with
DC> a moral character surpassing that cretin, which won't take much...
It's amazing the number of people at work who were ready to excuse Tyson's
rape on the grounds that he can fight well. Of course, considering OJ,
maybe not...or for that matter, G.Gordon Liddy.
... The Senate: More dinosaurs than Jurassic Park!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: murders
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:09:00
EID:4791 20792120
MSGID: 1:116/19 04241860
AS> Actually, this is one of those passages that trouble any thinking
AS> believer. I am offering guesses, but can't even specifically prove
AS> the Molech-sacrifice.
MH> If you believe that the Bible reveals a consistent God, then we can
MH> expect that his order to destroy the Midianites follows the same
MH> pattern as his destruction of the whole world with the flood, or the
MH> destruction of Sodom. Specifically:
MH> Genesis 6:5-8
MH> 5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become,
MH> and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
MH> all the time.
MH> 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his
MH> heart was filled with pain.
MH> 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from
MH> the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along
MH> the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made
MH> them."
MH> 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
MH> Genesis 18:22-26,32
MH> 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained
MH> standing before the LORD.
MH> 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the
MH> righteous with the wicked?
MH> 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you
MH> really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the
MH> fifty righteous people in it?
MH> 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with
MH> the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it
MH> from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
MH> 26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of
MH> Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
MH> 32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just
MH> once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For
MH> the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
MH> In other words, God doesn't resort to total destruction until
MH> depravity is total. Although it doesn't explicitly say this about the
MH> Midianites, if God is consistent, then it must be true of their
MH> situation as well.
Well, it sounds good, but one cannot deny it is a hard passage to explain,
and bear in mind who we are trying to explain it to, Mike. I think an
honest "I don't know" or at least, "I'm not sure how it fits in," is not
out of place.
... Maybe this world is another planet's Hell.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:a0a3 20792040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04242742
JH> attentions. I'm sure they'd be releaved if people marched on
JH> Nashville or Kansas City for a change and let them deal with the
DW> I'm sure you're relieved to know that the Oilers are coming to
DW> Nashville. Now we get to deal with the traffic tie-ups caused by
DW> no-neck football fans driving to see the game in person. UT football
DW> season fucks traffic up at this end of the state bad enough as it is.
And we're paying to have the stadium built, to boot. Oh, I suppose it will
eventually earn us money. Bredeson is all for it, and he's one of our
better mayors. But I don't really care if we get a pro football team or
not.
... Never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid doing entirely.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Perspectives
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:07:00
EID:e0f2 207920e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04242C1A
AS> the Canaannites et al, but still, in one religion, dying in battle
AS> is REQUIRED to earn Valhalla, whereas in the other asking
MM> Ever hear of the Christian armor listed by Paul? Do you think it is
MM> literal armor for a literal battle? Perspectives vary, but I see
MM> Valhalla as reward for fighting the fight and winning the ract that
MM> Paul discussed. Right living is cast as fighting the good fight. When
MM> I look into myth, I usually find that as much is to be gained by
MM> realizing that this is a teaching story.
But of course, that was not how the Vikings, who WERE Aesir-worshippers,
viewed it.
AS> forgiveness of sins is required. In others, reaching bliss means
MM> The sacrificial king who dies that his land flourishes is not that far
MM> from the king whose blood saves the world.
Of course, and there are certainly specific parallels given in both the
OT
and thenew.
AS> We very well might be arguing over perspective. But...I used to,
AS> on a local Fidonet echo, get into long protracted arguments with a
AS> Wiccan concerning this..he thought ALL religions are aspects of the
AS> same God. EVEN though it would make God seriously schizophrenic.
MM> Hey, just reading the Bible I find a bit of schizophrenia. "Thou shalt
MM> not kill." and "Kill them all" comes from the same source in the old
MM> testament. But being able to learn from every source I can, and decide
MM> which ones lead to ethics I choose to have in my life is an enjoyment
MM> of the study of religion/mythology for me.
And I don't want to deprive you of it. We must always be open to what
breezes of Divine wisdom we can find. Certainly there is much of interest
in other religions...the meditation and non-violence of Buddhism, the
fervor and purity of the monotheism of Islam, the comic vistas and cycles
of Hinduism, etc. One can admire and even learn without granting it to be
truth, however.
MM> The difference only seem so schizophrenic when you attempt to claim
MM> that any one source is the only source of knowledge or enlightenment.
Well...okay, let's remove it from Christianity. Islam insists there is
only one God, and Mohammed is the Seal of the Prophets. Whereas Hinduism
insists that there are many gods (who are all aspects of the dream of
Brahma) who manifest themselves as avatars, and will again (Vishnu's
return is foretold). The Hindu cosmos is a cyclical one, the Islamic one
has a onetime end of the world in which the unbelievers are put in Hell
forever and ever. That, I think, would be a challenge to reconcile. Not
impossible. You might want to speak with Rick Mcfarlane, who is of the
Baha'i faith, which as you may know, says Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha,
Mohammed and Baha'ullah are aspects of the Divine.
MM> If that blind man was saying that all of the other blind men had
MM> experienced a true aspect of diety, and that making them all fit into
MM> the description, I'd say he was wise. If he said, that people who have
MM> never experienced elephant in any manner could state an aspect of
MM> elephant and it too would be correct, I can see where the difficulty
MM> could arise. However, I would probably ask him how he intigrated the
MM> perspectives into a total picture. (Doing so, I would probably learn
MM> as much about that individual as I would about his/her view of
MM> elephant.)
MM> Like I have said before.... I'm curious. I ask lots of questions.
Good. That's the way to learn. And even questioning what you do learn is
not a bad idea. As you say, you must ask how to integrate them into a
total picture.
MM> The intolerance is part of my life exposure that makes that path a
MM> little more than uncomfortable for me. A "My way or the Highway"
MM> attitude is one I choose not to exhibit.
That's fine. I was probably burned too badly by that friend I told you of,
who would not even concede there WAS a single truth behind all the "masks"
of God.
AS> exclusionist, intolerant views...yet they are the right attitude to
MM> That remains to be seen. I find intolerant views usually are results
MM> of lack of understanding.
But yet, nothing else works in science, at least. The search for the one
truth is very essential to it. I'm really not pleading for intoleration,
but rather a knowledge that all of us might have an imperfect knowledge
of
the Divine, and that we must all strive for a closer approach, not accept
all views as equal.
MM> I enjoyed the vieww of scientific theory developing out of
MM> philosophies from religions of the past. Thanks.
No problem.
... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:01:00
EID:ee55 20792020
MSGID: 1:116/19 04242F76
AS> Y'know, I had forgotten both DeVito and Christopher Lloyd were in
AS> that, years before TAXI...I mainly remembered Jack Nicholson.
DC>
DC> I didn't know that... Looks like I'll have to get a copy of it
DC> and do a re-view. As forwhat I remember the most was Nurse
DC> "Rat-shit" and the BIG! Indian.
I cheated. I looked in my wife's VIDEOHOUND MOVIE GUIDE.
BTW, Ken Kesey wrote ONE as a Christ-allegory, as a lot of novels are
written. Well, he did another novel, called SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION,
where he used a Captain MArvel-allegory, since he felt comics were "modern
mythology." (It wasn't as good, but it was a noble attempt...)
... OK, I'm weird! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Time for a chuckle or two
|Date: 25 Mar 96 04:07:00
EID:6e2c 207920e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 042432AA
MB> REASONS WHY E-MAIL IS LIKE A PENIS:
MB> Some folks have it, some don't. Those who have it would be
MB> devastated if it were ever cut off. They think that those who don't
MB> have it are somehow inferior. They think it gives them power. They are
MB> wrong. Those who don't have it may agree that it's a nifty toy, but
MB> think it's not worth the fuss that those who do have it make about it.
MB> Still, many of those who don't have it would like to try it.
And, like many other things, some have more of a point than others...
... I'm not evil, I'm "morally challenged".
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: YOU BORE ME
|Date: 26 Mar 96 09:02:00
EID:7cb0 207a4840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04243584
AS> differently, I would at least want to have the body exhumed. (I.E.,
AS> check the tomb...as some other people did, some two thousand years
DC> As Judea was under Roman rule at the time, do you have a writ
DC> that shows that the tomb was exhumed? Better yet, do you have
DC> even an exact location for the tomb in question?
No. According to the story, it wasn't needed. It was...unaccountably,
unless you accept miracles...open. And interestingly enough, such an
exhumanation was not ordered by the authorities, either, even though it
would be the easiest way to shut up anyone who was going around saying
Jesus was resurrected...as if the tomb were already open and they kneew
it.
DC> BTW, I still have 3 or 4 messages to get back to you on, but
DC> I've been trying to "pace" them, as you are as prolific and
DC> then some as a responder as I am.
No problem. It's not a race. I just like to "talk". Or course, there IS
the matter of the royalty checks Styx is sending us, right... ?
DC> Good luck on the race for Numero Uno Poster this year.
DC> Carbon Copies:
DC> Every one on Earth
DC> (Put's me some 5+ Billion ahead!)
Why not send one to everyone, living or dead? That should total one
hundred billion. You're not going to let a piddling thing like someone
being dead stop you, will you? (Besides, if you get some answers back from
the dead ones, think of how famous you'll be!)
... It's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 25 Mar 96 05:08:00
EID:9b8e 20792900
MSGID: 1:116/19 0424398A
MC>> I see where Farrakhan has been brought before the Knesset, USA.
MC>> It appears that the Jews are trying to crucify him. Well,
MC>> that's nothing new. He needs to join with the militia, and
MC>> declare economic war against the Establishment. United we
MC>> stand, divided we fall.
AS> Anyone catch the Orwellian "doublethink" here? Quoting, "United
AS> we stand, divided we fall" while trying to divide Jews from the
AS> mainstream of American thinking, and holding up Farrakhan's
AS> extremist views (and for that matter, paramilitary militias such
AS> as were exposed after the OKC thing) as something to be admired,
AS> and to buck the "Establishment"...which, by definition, must be
AS> the majority.
JH> I never got that far... the idea of Farrakhan joining a militia was
JH> enough to floor me.
Yeah, let's see Farrakhan in the middle of the Aryan Nation types.
JH> And while I suspect that some "networking" may actually exist
JH> between characters like Farrakhan and David Duke (whatever you think
JH> of them, you'll be making a grave mistake to think them stupid.
JH> They've both demonstrated a genius for manipulating their followers
JH> and the media), there may (or may not) be some sharing of
JH> information and resources between such extremes you'll never
JH> see an open collaboration.
Wouldn't suprise me a bit. And I try not to underrate him. Hitler signed
a
treaty with Stalin, remember...which of course, he later broke. People
underrated Hitler for a while, and look what happened there...
... Cthulhu in '96. Why vote for the LESSER evil?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 27 Mar 96 00:34:00
EID:835d 207b0440
PID: RA 2.5.g1 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56f72ab0
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 894C0E2B
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
DC>123/1 43 67 305 318
DC>157/586 167/92 1103
DC>-> On 03-24-96 02:51, Mark Craig got back to Preston Simpson
DC> PS> MC> Coalition, are a Zionist front organization.
DC>
DC> PS> Nobody cares what you believe, as you are a moron of the
DC> PS> first water.
DC> MC> Your "mama" is calling you.
DC>That's "mamma", dipshit. IOW, someone that you have never
DC>known.
DC>And, as to Preston's depiction of you, let me be the first to
DC>urinate on you, unless you are already on fire. If you are
DC>on
DC>fire, do allow me to pour a bit more gasoline on you.
Your "mamy" is calling you.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: All
|Sub: Conference Guidelines
|Date: 27 Mar 96 00:22:02
EID:0724 207b02c0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 2b165b97
Re: HOLYSMOKE Echo Guidelines
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Basic Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in this echo are those of the writers
identified in the header of each message. No other responsibility
is expressed or implied for the content of the messages in this echo.
Rules to Follow:
[1] Please refrain from attempting to force your ideas on others,
or to be deliberately disruptive in the echo.
Those who engage in such activity may find their feed to this
echo terminated.
[2] As is customary in echomail, private messages are not allowed.
[3] If you wish to post messages on this echo please try to keep
your comments and ideas on a rational level. This will help
to facilitate an open and free flowing dialogue.
Please refrain from entering statements like:
"I know I'm right and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid!"
or
"You're gonna burn in hell if you don't accept god."
Such messages only serve to irritate others, and do little
more than to raise the noise level of the echo.
[4] Attempt to quote only relevant text, in order to make your
messages more legible, and to lessen the burden on those
who pay to move each byte posted in this conference.
[5] Deliberate censorship of wording contained within a quote
attributed to another in this echo is expressly forbidden.
Echo Purpose: (To let you hear what you just said) ;-)
This echo provides an open forum where one can argue for or against
religion(s). Both religious and anti-religious views are allowed.
Atheists, agnostics, religious right-wingers, bible babblers,
bible bashers, preachers of doom, echovangelists, conservatives,
liberals and those with (hopefully curable) crucifixation are welcome
in HOLYSMOKE. (As long as they abide by the guidelines above!)
Enjoy and happy debating!
Styx Allum, Moderator (1:152/20)
P.O. Box 5150
Eugene, OR 97405-0150
---
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sid Vicious
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 26 Mar 96 17:15:04
EID:79ea 207a89e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 315962eb
REPLY: 1:2805/5.2 315224dc
RJ> Don't I know you from CIVLIB, about a year ago?
SV> Been reading "How to Pick-up Women" again?
Hah! Look who's talking about trolling FIDO for women!
... I.N.R.I. - I'm Not Really Ingestible
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: FIJA Lunacy on your BBS
|Date: 26 Mar 96 17:19:02
EID:d49f 207a8a60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 315962ec
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2895bc2a
SM> Clay's largest -- and most reliable -- HEADACHES in the FIJA Echo are
SM> the Terry Parkers and Ralph Stokes's. REPEATEDLY, Clay has had to
Stokes is a pain a mite lower.
SM> remind the Echo that the range of interest in FIJA goes WELL beyond
SM> that of the rightwing extremists.
I'll bet the armchair commandos must _love_ all the Long-
haired Dope-Smoking Hippies and Uppity Negroes trying to
horn in on their private right, huh?
SM> Next time I get a post like that from Clay in FIJA, I'll let you and
SM> frice know......
Okeydoke.
... I've never fallen in love, but I've stepped in it a few times.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: RABIES SHOTS ANYONE?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:47:27
EID:67a8 207b55e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31596300
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> Date: 03-18-96 12:20 From: Bryan Keller
JH> Can he receive NetMail at that address?
JB> As far as I know, he can. This one's sounding more and more like Bryce
JB> Wellington every day...only more violent.
Let's find out how he feels about the French.
... Happiness is 9,10-Didehydo-N,N-diethyl-6-methylergoline-8B-carboxamide
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:47:27
EID:9785 207b55e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31596301
REPLY: 1:280/26 771246e8
SM> The lyrics of Yes are perfectly easily understood!! [gdr]
RB> Mountains come out of the sky and they stand there...
RB> Hmmm...yes, you're right.
Sure, if you're looking at the album cover...
... What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! - Pope Leo X
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Proof's in the putting.
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:47:27
EID:c80c 207b55e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31596302
ML> Martin Goldberg, while chasing after lingerie, was given the slip,
ML> said to Jim Germiquet:
JG> How very true. God is a spirit.
ML>
ML> If God's a spirit, what's his proof?
ML>
Zero.
... Happiness is 9,10-Didehydo-N,N-diethyl-6-methylergoline-8B-carboxamide
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sid Vicious
|Sub: who wrote it
|Date: 27 Mar 96 10:47:27
EID:7e44 207b55e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31596303
REPLY: 1:2805/5.2 56f3c61e
MG> SV> Speaking of braindead, where's Rectal?
MG>Haven't seen him for about three weeks. Called his system.
MG>Got a "no carrier".
SV> What about Prayer Warrior? You think that's really Fatherley, or are
SV> Diehard and Critter playing some kind of game?
I have some doubts about it at the moment. I'll have a
better guess after a couple of weeks or two dozen posts,
which ever comes first.
... "Dear Diary: My teen angst has a body count."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ASS-UMPTION
|Date: 26 Mar 96 18:54:00
EID:7b4a 207a96c0
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Roger Hunter <=-
MH> Are you saying that an assumption is the same as an "established
MH> fact?" For that was Wotan's insistence -- not that the null set is
MH> assumed to be true, but that it is an "established fact."
The difference is negligible. We assume the null hypothesis to be true
and it stands as established if all tests fail to disprove it.
No one has disproved "There is no God".
... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Mar 96 18:56:00
EID:94de 207a9700
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Roger Hunter <=-
MH> If someone fights for the other side up until the point you break
MH> through the enemy line and face him down, how much credibility will
MH> you give his claim that "I was on your side all along?"
Bad analogy. I had something like an honest disbeliever in mind,
who becomes convinced only after death but still suffers like Hitler.
... A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:49
EID:b761 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f71
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Al Schroeder Re: YOUR DAILY MURDER wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AS> to me. If you love them, no matter how frustrated, you don't hurt
AS> them. I am very old-fashioned about this. Of course there are women
One wonders if this "old-fashioned" idea is such a bad one. I tend to take
a dim view of any man who strikes a woman without extremely justifiable
reasons, and those who do it simply because "she started it!" are possibly
the most reprehensible of all, IMO. It's irritating and disgusting to
see an ostensible male human being who seems to advocate slapping women
around as a form of keeping them under control.
Sheesh. Hasn't Jim ever heard of the proposition that adult human beings
should be treated as such and not as punching bags or baby machines?
AS> on them. It just doesn't...register with me. I don't see the need, and
AS> I sure don't see any justification for it.
Myself, I haven't seen any need for violence at all unless I am threatened
or someone I care about is threatened. Having never encountered such a
situation, I cannot say for certain what I would do, save that I would make
every effort to be efficient about the solution I took.
AS> This is the same guy who said it was humane to do the Numbers 31
AS> thing, and then later said it was "tongue in cheek". I'm sorry, I'm
a
Puts me in mind of the people who used to bully me in grade school and then
say that they were "just kidding." It is possible that that phrase and
others like it are the only words that can make me utterly enraged. It
implies cowardice on the part of the user and simultaneously insults my
intelligence to a degree that I don't much care for.
AS> believer, but I don't think it's soething I can pass by lightly or
AS> call "humane". It's like I'm proud to be an American and all that, but
AS> I don't pass lightly over the Trail of Tears or My Lai.
Agreed. And attempts to justify them or pass them off as jokes are
repugnant.
AS> Is that as insulting to the MALE sex in your ears as it is to mine?
It isn't insulting to my masculinity; it's insulting to my humanity. As
if *anyone* needs to slap other people around to keep from going insane.
AS> As if we don't slap a few women around, we are prone to go totally
AS> crazy. As if he was confusing testerone with TNT.
This may apply to "standard issue" males. It doesn't apply to conscientious,
thoughtful, and caring men.
AS> That's why I had to say something. Modeming seems to draw extremes (I
AS> guess the moderates have better things to do then waste a lot of time
Hey! I'm one of the most moderate people I know. My extremes result in a
nice average.
... It's probably a bad day when you find a dead fish in your underwear.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Book replacement?
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:49
EID:020e 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f72
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
It's extremely possible that I'll be spending some time in Atlanta this
summer. There's a wonderful bookstore there (Oxford Books) that sells
used books at remarkably low prices. If I do manage to go and have a
significant amount of cash (likely on both counts), is there anything
in particular that you'd like me to try to pick up? It's no problem at
all and as the owner of a somewhat large personal library, I understand
what a loss it is when it goes up in smoke, so to speak.
... They got the library at Alexandria. They're not getting mine.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:50
EID:a97e 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f74
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dawn Kleuser Angel Fundy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DK> Hey, it was just a question! Sheesh. I really wanted an honest
DK> answer. Whoever's spiritual beleifs or lack threof is their business.
A sensible stance.
DK> I am not here to "slam" ANYBODY. I would, however, like to know why
This cannot be said for everyone here, including myself. I see HOLYSMOKE
as something of an educational toy, with the frequent opportunity to
slam, mash, mangle, fold, spindle, and mutilate the opinions and personas
of people that I happen to strongly disagree with.
... I saved the life of the virgin sacrifice by disqualifying her.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:50
EID:87a6 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f75
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jerry Gilbreath Science vs. Faith wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> A close study will show that reality matches up with biblical
JG> accounts quite well. I am not sure what you mean by "science",
Then again, there's that flood story that just doesn't fit.
JG> but a lot of people mean "theories". You may be suprised to
JG> know that the "scientific" theory of evolution, for example has
JG> no support apart from more theories (no evidence). The Genesis
You're new here, aren't you? Allow me to explain the theory of evolution
as I see it:
Evolution, contrary to popular (and ignorant) belief, does *not* say that
animals make huge leaps in a short time. Thus, the example of "dogs to
starfish" and similar idiotic comparisons does not apply.
Evolutionary theory is a term that applies to two separate things. First,
it refers to the mechanisms by which scientists and other usually rational
people think evolution works (as evolution itself is already an established
fact--more on this later). Second, it refers to the extrapolation from
current data that if it happened now, it is possible that it happened in
the
past.
Now then, evolutionary theory in its first sense says something like this:
It is a fact that organisms overbreed (not every species has cable TV or
the Superbowl to keep them occupied). It is also a fact that the amount
of
resources (food, water, air, Valium, or other "needful things") is in
short supply. What then occurs is competition, both between and among
species, for those resources. Enter the famous line, "Nature red in tooth
and claw," because the wilderness is not a fun place.
But wait, that's not all. Thrown into the mix is the fact that there are
sufficient mutagenic agents (things like background radiation, microwaves,
Twinkies, toxic waste, and other mutation-causing goodies) present in the
environment (read Earth--since we haven't discovered life as we know it
anywhere else, this is where most of evolution as we know it takes place).
These mutagens cause a number of small mutations in individual examples
of
each species (if a large mutation [say, a third arm growing out of one's
chest or large purple horns growing into one's lungs] develops, then that
organism probably won't reproduce either through sheer inability [failure
to find a mate that would have that organism, or sterility, or not being
able to bear viable offspring] or through the fact that the mutation is
lethal and it dies a nasty and quick death). Now, add these factors
together to get the following synthesis:
We have a finite supply of resources, a lot of competition, and mutation.
Creatures that have developed (for one reason or another) a mutation that
permits them to compete more successfully than their fellow species-mates
or other species working for the same resource tend to reproduce more.
With more reproduction comes more examples with that successful mutation,
and eventually, barring total disaster (an ice age, a flood, or Roseanne
Arnold winning an Oscar), those organisms will dominate their species and
possibly all others in that particular area competing for that particular
resource. That's one way that natural selection works: an organism
develops and passes on a characteristic that promotes its survival in a
competetive environment.
Another way that natural selection works can be exemplified by the old
cockroaches/bug spray experiment, which is set up like so:
Imagine that you have a contained population of 20 cockroaches of both
sexes (this is unlikely since you can't ever have just 20 cockroaches
in one place and it's never totally sealed against the little bastards,
but bear in mind that this is just an example). Now, you decide to
introduce a factor that we'll call X because it's ominous sounding and
easy to spell. X can be anything--bug spray, roach powder, MSG, cocaine,
vending machine food or anything with the word "beverage" in its name--
that is lethal to the roaches (and possibly the experimenter, but that's
a different experiment and probably forbidden anyway). Now, if all of the
roaches die, then this experiment is at an end. But let's pretend that
some of the roaches (say about five, again with both sexes represented.
I
could say that it was two males and two females with one hermaphrodite
[that X is powerful stuff, no?], but that wouldn't be any fun. Just take
my word for it that both sexes are represented and I'll leave the exact
combination up to your own imagination) survived. For whatever reason
(they wore gas masks, were on diets, got regular exercise, were strong
in the Force, or something), those roaches survived and reproduced (again,
due to lack of cable TV or other things to pass the time with). Now, let's
hit the fast-forward button for a moment.
It's a later time. The original 5 are dead, but their progeny, all 150 of
'em (see what no cable TV can do for a population), are still in the
sealed environment. As our experimenter is a sadistic little man, he
leaves X as a constant in the environment. Of the 150 new roaches, we'll
say that 100 die this time--which is actually an improvement over the
original scenario as only 2/3rds of the roaches die instead of 3/4ths as
in the first generation. Eventually, as time goes on, the roaches that
are able to resist X will far outnumber those that can't resist X simply
because those that survived reproduced, and if the factor in their
survival was a genetic one (that is, able to be passed on to their
offspring), then that gene will become predominant in the population and
none of the ones that couldn't survive X will be left around because the
gene sequences that failed under the mighty environmental disaster that
is X all died out. This is natural selection.
That's the basics of evolutionary theory's mechanisms. That's all. No
vast mutations, no starfish turning into dogs, no sudden species changes,
nothing at all. This is not what the ICR and various other institutes that
are essentially devoid of evolutionary knowledge would have you believe,
but that's the truth. It's all about a bunch of short evolutionary steps
taken over one hell of a lot of time (think geological eras here), not
gigantic leaps taken overnight.
Now, as far as evolutionary theory applies to the way that we think it
happened in the past, it should be obvious: If it happens now (and it
does--the roach experiment can be done by anyone with a solid box, some
roaches, and a lot of Raid. Flu virii and penicillin-resistant strains
of pneumonia and other diseases also attest to the veracity of
evolution), then it is probable that it happened in the past. What this
means is that we're *not* descended from monkeys, again contrary to
popular but erroneous belief. Imagine instead that life as we know it
on this planet resembles a tree: At the roots, we have simple one-celled
organisms. There are a few trunks (land animals, amphibians, water-
dwellers, et cetera), and from those trunks there are a number of branches
(primates, pigs, birds, frogs, catfish, whales, etc.), and from those
branches there are still more branches (gorillas, humans, Poland Chinas,
hawks, eagles, spotted tree frogs, toads, salt-water catfish, fresh-water
catfish, humpback whales, blue whales, etc.). In a manner of speaking,
everything is related to everything else but only in the sense that all
organisms are on the same tree--they may be on branches that sprout from
different trunks and are thus almost entirely different. You won't see
sudden changes in species (dogs do not become starfish, no matter how
many dogs you throw into the ocean, and vice versa).
That's the sum of evolutionary theory, the best that I can explain it. It's
all fairly simple, all fairly logical, and there's a *lot* of evidence to
support it.
JG> account, however, has literally millions of tons of evidence
JG> (not just theories). I am referring to the hundreds of feet of
JG> sediment all over the world, even on mountain tops.
This argument doesn't apply in the face of things like plate tectonics
and what is loosely referred to as continental drift. At one point or
another *every* piece of land was underwater. This does not mean that it
was all underwater at the same time.
Further, the problem with a global flood of Biblical proportions is that
it requires a full two extra hydrospheres (total, that's three times the
water present on earth now in all forms--ice, underground, water vapor,
everything) of water to flood the entire earth to the height of just
over 29,000 feet. Furthermore, there are physical problems involved in
the delivery of such water (where did it come from? Where did it go?
Do you know how much heat would be released from the sheer impact of
that much rain? Do you know how much heat would be involved in making
that much water evaporate over that short a time? It's an astounding
number and the Bible doesn't speak of the Ark as having been burnt to
a crisp [temperatures in excess of 1800 degrees Centigrade will do that
to wood and living things] If it existed as water vapor, do you realize
what damage that would do [870 times normal atmospheric pressure is
a *lot* of pressure] to organisms and structures), not to mention problems
involved in the building of the Ark (larger than any wooden vessel ever
constructed--all done with low technology and only a handful of people),
its capacity (is 1.5 to 3.6 million cubic feet sufficent to hold two
of every species minimum, plus food and water for 190+ days, plus food
to be distributed until things could actually grow again on earth [tip:
plants don't survive well under 29,000 feet of water. Pressure and lack
of CO2 and light and all that.], plus special environments for all the
animals that needed them [think that freshwater fish could live in a
body of water that was essentially saline? Think again. Likewise for
temperature and food supply to aquatic creatures.], plus medical
facilities and a slew of other things), and assorted other problems
(how did the animals get to the Ark if the continents were separated?
How did the survivors keep the two lions from killing and eating the
two sheep [predator/prey ratios are usually about 1:400--the Ark
couldn't have sustained this ratio at all]? How did the surviving
humans have a large enough gene pool to keep the offspring from being
drooling, chinless idiots in a few generations of inbreeding? How
did this thing get recorded if only a few people survived and all other
civilization was wiped out?)
All of those problems don't even begin to touch the big one, which is
the simple fact that the dates given by the Bible and by modern archaeology
place the flood, if it happened at all, at circa 2250 BCE--which is 300
years after the Great Pyramid was built at Gizeh and a time when there
were plenty of record-keeping civilizations, none of whom spoke of a
massive, world-wide flood at that time. There are no artifacts and no
sites that show the scars that would be left by such an enormous flood.
Not a single one.
JG> I suppose that religion does start with the conclusion that
JG> there is a creator, but this is an obvious conclusion given the
JG> complexity of life. Nobody would excavate something as simple
Not really. Life is complex, but it is also alarmingly simple at times.
When I look at the world, I don't see evidence for a creator unless I'm
looking at an obviously artificial construct (like superhighways or an
ant mound).
JG> Anybody could see that it was created by an intelligent being.
JG> Any form of life is more complex than the computer you are using
JG> and infinitely more complex than a clay pot. How could it have
JG> happened by accident?
I'll ask a simple, honest, direct question: Who created God? If there
has to be a creator for everything, who built God? Who built *that*
creator? Who built *that* creator? I could go on, but it should be
fairly obvious by now that assuming that the chain of causality cannot
be infinite is rather a puerile statement in view of the fact that
what we know about the way things work is in most cases limited to what
we can observe on earth or in its immediate neighborhood and need not
necessarily apply to the billions of cubic lightyears that define the
universe as we know it.
... Noisy brute. Why don't we just go into light-speed? - C-3PO
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: TENNESSEE COMMAND
|Date: 27 Mar 96 13:56:50
EID:b1df 207b6f00
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31598f76
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dan Ceppa TENNESSEE COMMAND wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AS> Oh, about the Tennessee "evolution is just a theory" law. They've
AS> taken out any provisions for criminal charges if evolution is taught
AS> as fact, so it amounts to a mild suggestion.
DC> Cowards! I'd like to see them actually put their asses on the
DC> line and back it up for a SC test.
It wouldn't make it to the SC. I'd bet money that it would go to the State
Supreme Court, no farther.
... AD&D Lesson #216 - Never insult an archmage
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: Pantheacon Stuff 1/4
|Date: 22 Mar 96 18:43:59
EID:3966 20769560
Re: Pantheacon Stuff 1/4:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Katherine Wintersnight,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KW> Oh, I alternate between MTP and BSW, with forays into Episcopaganism.
KW> My coven will not let me forget the ritual that literally blew up (so
KW> much for special effects).
NS> Pyrotechnics can be a blast . . .
KW> Tell me about it. At least I wasn't responsible for
KW> the seven foot penis stuffed with fireworks.
Do I need to ask if this was a working of some sort? }:)
NS> I remember one year there were a bunch of new seekers around, and
NS> the HPs had them all doing quarters during the ritual. In the
NS> middle, she waved her script (We all worked with scripts at that
NS> time) and it intersected a candle flame and started burning. I
NS> remember looking at those new people looking at her, and I swear I
NS> could read their minds: Are we _all_ supposed to sacrifice our
NS> scripts?
KW> We work with scripts from time to time. What I find funny
KW> is the guy with the elaborately calligraphied BOS trying to read by
KW> candlelight. Or the one in the long floppy sleeves setting his robe
KW> on fire (so much for the water on the altar).
Will the person closest to him please stamp the HP out . . .
I remember stopping ritual because one of the cars had started a grass
fire and we all had to rescue the chickens and ducks from the henhouse.
NS> I think my opinion as to the most fun ritual was the chocolate
NS> ritual someone came up with a few years ago. Yummy too. I think
NS> chocolate itself is sacrament, and wonder why no one's formed a
NS> religion around it yet. I, oddly, feel the same way about
NS> caffiene. };)
KW> I've done that chocolate ritual. Several people want me to do it if
KW> we do ever have a get together. Or strawberries at Beltain--with a
KW> good rum spiked chocolate fondue.
Yum. There's a Pagan here locally who always has lots of people at his
Winter rituals because he makes a great ritual drink called apple pie.
Pretty good alcohol content and very yummy. He won't part with the
recipe, though . . .
NS> I like the Monster Truck Pagans the most because they make their
NS> own beer. Anyone that does that is okay in my book.
KW> Well, I've only made beer twice, but I do brew my own mead.
I like people who do that too. Heh. I'm such a slut for homebrew . . .
... "Amazing what caffeine and no sense of self-preservation can do..."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: Vote for Rapture.
|Date: 22 Mar 96 18:51:08
EID:02e5 20769660
Re: Vote for Rapture.:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Katherine Wintersnight,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KW> I don't think that holysmoke would get too tepid. There would still
KW> be sweaty little teenyboppers looking for real copies of the 'Nec',
the
KW> endless arguments over the demideification of St. Gerald, and if all
KW> else fails, we can always argue over wether or not real true pagans
KW> can wear polyester robes.
NS> Yeah, and by that time we'll be ready for some real holy wars
NS> involving some of the local Deities. Another downside, though, is
NS> that it's supposed to be a time when the gates of Hell open up and
NS> everything inferno starts partying. I guess that means we get to
NS> see Assmotrin again . . . };)
KW> Ugh. He's in the xtian group, they can have him.
Poor Assmotrin, too big an idiot for the Athiests and Pagans, too big a
jerk for the Xtians. Maybe he can join the Shriners.
KW> I don't think that we'd lose National Inquirer, they'd just feature
a
KW> bad airbrushed photo of Jesus in the smoke over burning things.
KW> Speaking of such, did you see the article in the WWNews about the Pope
KW> hiring a couple of hit men to kill Satan?
NS> I haven't seen the story . . . the last one I saw was about
NS> Microsoft acquiring the Roman Catholic Church. Pretty funny. Hit
NS> men to kill Satan? But . . . but . . . I thought Satan was an
NS> Angel and thusly unable to die . . .
KW> Well, supposedly these two mafia hit men are dying of cancer. The
KW> pope offered them a contract to kill Satan, in return for which he will
KW> guarantee that they go to heaven. Wouldn't wiping out Satan mess up
KW> their holy prophesy?
You betcha, providing he could die. Let's see here . . . Satan dies,
and either goes to Heaven or Hell. If it's Heaven, then our beliefs
about him being a button guy for YHVH seem true. If Hell, he certainly
isn't going to rule there anymore. He'll be hip deep in the lake of
boiling blood (I think Dante ate too much pizza the night he came up
with this one, but its a great image, almost as good as the city of
Dis) yodeling his lungs out. Either way, with Satan dead, no more sin,
no more temptation. Without sin, no one has to go to Hell