God Damned Fundies!
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 01 Apr 96 12:47:06
EID:a124 208165e0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 808ddea2
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2a09b060
On (24 Mar 96) Fredric Rice wrote to All...
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
Give it up, Fred. You know the truth of the matter...every body does.
You have just wrongly accused me of doing something I didn't do.
a. you cannot punish me.
b. you owe me one apology.
c. if you wish, I can trade yours for Mark's and you guys would
be square.
... Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. (Phi 4:4)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Jon Vandenberg
|Date: 01 Apr 96 12:55:00
EID:436e 208166e0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 3e66a51e
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89510E3A
On (30 Mar 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jon Vandenberg...
DC> Such as he was "booted from a board" that shut down? Let me know
DC> the next time you access that closed board and show that even
DC> george can't access it anymore than you can.
Dan -
Just a note about besser george:
I am still posting from this board in question, even as george could be
had he asserted himself. This phoney 'post from Texas because nobody
gives me an even shake' crap doesn't wash. george can post to this echo
right from the online service he does his Interneting from. He is just
seeking pity (and he is a pitiable guy).
... Bless them which persecute you. (Rom 12:14)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: My Book
|Date: 01 Apr 96 13:13:47
EID:a1b2 208169a0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 793b7d4f
On (31 Mar 96) George Rudzinski wrote to John Brawley...
-=> Quoting John Brawley to George Rudzinski <=-
JB> Hello, George.
JB> Sir, would you be so kind as to _please_ mail me back the book you
JB> borrowed from me, Gentry's _Creation's_Tiny_Mystery_? It's my
JB> annotated copy, and I _need_ it back. It's been almost a year now,
JB> that you've had it to work with, right? _Please_ send it back to me?
JB> John Brawley
JB> PO box 224
JB> Eureka, MO
JB> 63025
JB> Thank you, George.
JB> JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
JB> : john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
JB> : FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
JB> ... "Bother," said Pooh as he started to install Windows.
GR> Well no I won't. I find your tagline offensive to my religious
GR> beliefs. When you remove yourself from this echo voluntarily for 90
GR> days I'll send your book back. I am well aware that Styx is the
GR> moderator, unfortunately for you he doesn't have the book. I do and
GR> those are my conditions. It is either my way, or read about the
GR> unfortunate fire in my house where your book was consumed in the
GR> conflagration.
GR> I understand that I am being an unreasonable prick about this. Look
GR> in the mirror, I've dealt with that unreasonable prick.
GR> Doesn't feel very good does it? Doesn't feel very good being treated
GR> like a child by someone who is acting childish does it?
GR> Stand in line, I said the very same things about you and Dave Horn.
GR> I'm not normally into power trips but I can do it with the best of
GR> them.
GR> Talk to you in June.
GR> george
John -
I can't believe this crap! The only thing of reason is the mention of
an unfortunate fire at his house (would be a boon to the neighborhood,
BTW, I have been there and the property appears to suffer greatly from
neglect and disrepair...in addition to the owner being an unreasonable
prick by reason of birth). As a resident of similar locale as the
aforementioned prick, I would be happy to do anything within the law
to assist in the return of your property. Please let me know.
-=Jim=-
... Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24:4
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 01 Apr 96 22:40:10
EID:ee16 2081b500
MSGID: 3:711/933 31605c83
REPLY: 1:116/19 0423DEFE
Dear Al Schroeder,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together. Witness the
AS> birth of the new Nazi party.
Oh no, you can't place that Jewish invention (via Karl Ritter) on any Christian.
You keep your Nazi party and your crackpot ideas. Besides,
Nazi-ism is over, the next Jewish invention (via Karl Marx, funded by
`The Just Men' and they were in fact the Rothschilds if memory serves
correctly), Communism, is what will be employed.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 01 Apr 96 22:45:52
EID:63b9 2081b5a0
MSGID: 3:711/933 31606811
REPLY: 1:116/19 0423DC10
Dear Al Schroeder,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Many contemporary Jews claim descent from David, and can produce
AS> better pedigrees buttressed by more records than most descendents of
AS> William the Conqueror, despite the fact that William lived two
AS> thousand years later.
This is a deliberate lie, and you should not tell lies. There is not one
Israelite alive today who can trace his family tree with certainty. And
definately none with even a single shred of `buttressing' because the records
were destroyed with the Temple. Next time, be truthful.
AS>> However, historically to be "anti-Semitic" is to discriminate
AS>> between the people who call themselves Jewish.
This too is a lie. This is a NON-Semitic Jewish lie. Also an oxymoron.
AG>> But this is not honest. The vast majority of those who call
AG>> themselves `Jews' are NON-Semitic and ANIT-Semitic.
AS> But you can't prove that.
The Jews certainly can, and so can all the other historians. Read Noam
Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, Arthur Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe, Benjamin
Freedman's Facts are Facts. Encyclopaedia Britannica, and Encyclopaedia
Judaica, Universal Jewish Encyclopaedia.
AS> you might consult some of the Jewish family trees in Burke's peerage,
AS> no slouch at geneaology,
And wholly out of touch with reality when speaking of Jewry. The records
were destroyed over a thousand years before the ancestors of these people
ever heard of Moses, Abraham, etc.., from backslidden Babylonian Jews who
came to proselyte King Bulan.
AS> which nevertheless accept the claims of some of the Jewish families
AS> who have married into the peerage, stretching back to Bible days.
Well, we've covered the fallacy of this statement. You've moved into the
realms of British Israelitism, and that's also fantasy.
AS> silly as asking a modern Englishman whether he is a Norman or a Saxon.
But it matters not whether he is Norman or Saxon or Ethiopian. I hardly
see any relevance in this red herring. God made no Covenant through Moses
with Normans or Saxons or Ethiopians, and none through Abraham with these
races. Nobody but a British Israelite discerner would even suggest He has
so why do you raise even the possibility?
AS> It has been estimated that practically any white person with European
AS> blood is likely descendend from Charlemagne
Once again, what has this to do with God or with natural Israel?
AS> Probably EVERYONE in that area of the world are descendents of
AS> Abraham, and probably both you and I are also, despite Jewish
AS> attempts only to marry Jews.
Don't talk foolishness! Even British Israelitism does not stretch the truth
to this extent.
AS> And the rest of the English-speaking world. Except for a few bigots.
The bigots are the Jews. Besides being bigots, they are mostly hypocrits,
not being what they pretend.
AS> (Gentle smile.) Are you saying there was no violence when the Holy
AS> Land was first given to the Jews?
Not a `gentle smile', a stupid grin. When Israel first took the Land, they
did so at the command of God, and the people they slew were serpent's seed
who are not on the Book of Life. In our lifetime, the Land has been stolen
by NON-Semitic FALSE or self-styled Jews who have no relatiopnship with
the Covenant people and no part in the Covenant. They murdered the Semitic
Jew
and Semitic Arabs who ownbed the land and lived in harmony. They have gone
into the Land in UNbelief and continue their violence against Semitic Jews
and Arabs to this day. Further, they did not take the Land at God's command
and it was not given to them, they stole it.
AS> Unfortunately, Anthony, I don't think you have a direct line to him.
That's because you are not a Christian. You cannot be expected to know.
AS> No matter what you think. John is very explicit about those who hate
AS> their brothers, and other passages make it clear that "brothers"
AS> includes other men.
Not in any Bible you've ever read. Those who are my brothers are they who
are born of my Father. Read Matthew 12:46-49.
AS> Unfortunately, if you will study the OT, you will find that adoption
AS> (which is provided for) entails the adoptee being part of the
AS> bloodline,
And I covered this. Christians are the blood of Jesus Christ by the baptism
of the Holy Ghost. The life is in the blood. You just don't have That. Read
Galatians 3.
AS> in legal fiction if not actual geneaology. Hence the part of Jesus'
AS> geneaology that actually refers to Joseph is not irrelevant, in
AS> Jewish eyes. Jesus was still "heir" to Joseph and all his ancestors,
AS> even though Joseph was not the literal father.
And this is precisely why 94+% of so-called Jews can never be in the Mosaic
Covenant (which is fulfilled at any event) or the Covenant God made with
Abraham's natural seed because that they ain't.
AS> I have indeed, Anthony. And I find nothing but distortion and
AS> bigotry.
That's sad, but it is your own choice.
AS> I found a web page with Brother Branham's teaching. It disturbed me
AS> more than you know, that someone would be regarded a Prophet who
AS> teaches such things contrary to Jesus' teachings.
Don't make a bigger oaf of yourself than you have already.
AS> But still, it was foretold that many would claim to speak in His
AS> name, and Jesus would know them not.
And you are the fulfillment of this Scripture.
AS> And He also said, Father forgive them, for they know not what they
AS> do.
That's right. They were blinded that the Gentile FALSE Jews and plain
honest Gentiles could receive the blessing of the adoption or new birth
through their bigotry and hatred which separated them from God for over
2,000 years. But this does not apply to you. You know what you're doing
but you do it anyway.
AS> With all due respect, Anthony, many have claimed the Spirit...from
AS> nuts like Koresh and Jim Jones,
But what has this to do with Jesus Christ? So have you. That does not make
it so. If you think Jones or Koresh are Christians then what is the reason
you believe what you do? Where is your Scripture? If on the other hand you
are being cute, then to what end? Why raise another red herring?
AS> The Pope claims to be moved by the Holy Spirit. Yet he would disagree
AS> with you on numerous points. How to choose between you?
You cannot. You have made your choice. You can never change it now. All
the Words in the Bible can never have any effect on you. You have the desire
of
your ego ... as I predicted you would.
AS> And what you preach concerning Jews or, those who call themselves
AS> Jews, if you prefer, has been the sort of thing that nearly brought
AS> barbarism to the civilized world on a scale unprecedented, some fifty
AS> years ago in Germany.
Oh no! What I teach about the self-styled or FALSE Jews is what Israelites
teach. And what the Bible teaches.
AS> I can only hope someday you will lift those willful blinders and see
AS> what historians teach us about the Holocaust...read people like John
AS> Tolland, Elie Weisal, and others
Liars. Now let us see how many years it will take the British to cremate
their beef. It will certainly expose the Jewish fables. You just have not
read any history, only fairy stories.
AS> ...and realize it is neither a conspiracy nor a fraud, but honest
AS> truth verified by hundreds of thousands.
There has never been one stitch of evidence, the myth is a technological
impossibility.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:00:12
EID:0847 20813800
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc5db
REPLY: 1:153/792 314771c4
Thursday March 14 1996 19:21, Kelsey Bjarnason mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KB> Try that again, dimwit. If God ain't real, then his little tale of
KB> "I am the One True God" becomes meaningless, which opens the door
KB> to their being umpteen million gods.
That might be what you believe, but it's not what I believe.
KB> However, there still may be umpteen million gods - your belief that
KB> there is only one doesn't immediately render the others non-existent;
KB> it simply says you only believe in one.
Can't render that which does not exist to be non-existent, because they
do not exist to start with.
KM>> You can engage yourself in your thought experiment, I will not
KM>> participate.
KB> Why are you so afraid to *think*, Ken? It really doesn't hurt that
KB> much, especially when you get in practice.
I think quite a bit, and meditate on things as well. But not on things that
I would consider a waste of my time.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:02:13
EID:0a14 20813840
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc606
Friday February 23 1996 02:30, Norbert Sykes mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
KM>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
NS> Oh, so Kenneth Mcabee is the Lord my God now? My, we _do_ put on
NS> airs, don't we?
Norbert,
Joining the ranks of those that must take everything said out of context?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:03:14
EID:608a 20813860
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc652
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 14c5931e
Tuesday March 19 1996 08:14, Steve Rose mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
SR> Steve rolls his eyes, sighs once again and holds the mirror up to reflect
SR> the face of the young Kenny fundy with apparently no memory.
SR> "There...THAT is a fundy. Recognize yourself, now?"
Steve,
Ken rolls his eyes, sighs once again and holds up the dictionary to Steve......
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Ray Talley
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:05:15
EID:065a 208138a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc7a3
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 314f4865
Tuesday March 19 1996 16:42, Ray Talley mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> And why should I believe someone who believes in the mythology that
he
KD>> WAS crucified?
KM>> You believe it to be a mythology, I do not. And to be quite frank
KM>> about it, I don't understand why someone who believes it to be
KM>> mythology would spend so much time here debating it.
RT> How about that . . .
RT> 1) I'm worried that room temperature IQ fundies like you will use our
RT> schools as recuiting ground for your delusions.
Would never use a school as a recruiting ground for delusions, why? Because
I don't have any delusions only truth. As far as preaching the gospel on
school grounds, no I would not do that either. Kids are there to learn something
other than the Bible, and probably would not have the time to listen.
RT> 2) Relgion is the single
RT> greatest cause of suffering on the planet. (Both yesterday and today.)
Good thing I don't believe in religion.
RT> 3)
RT> Willful ignorence pisses me off.
So when are you going to stop being willfully ignorant of the Bible?
KD>>> There is no more reason to believe it is true than the Mabinogion
is
KD>>> true.
KM>>> Again your opinion.
KD>> And a valid one.
In your opinion.
KM>> In your opinion, not mine.
RT> Opinions are like assholes, everybody . . .
RT> You continue to make the extraordinary claim that you have found the
RT> creator of the universe and that IT is your personal buddy. Please
RT> demonstrate why we should believe you.
You get no demonstation, only the gospel.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:10:16
EID:d007 20813940
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc8d0
REPLY: 1:207/212 7f045a8d
Tuesday March 19 1996 20:21, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Then what's the value of Christianity per se?
KM>> True Christianity? Living forever, and knowing that when the Lord
KM>> comes back for us, that we have done what we could to spread his
KM>> gospel.
KD> Yet you and others are claiming that it is also beneficial to a society
KD> to be Christian as well as individuals.
Yes, but I probably have a different meaning of a Christian than you.
KM>> No, it's not a jail, we are not allowed back into Eden, that was the
KM>> punishment, not the world. I think on this one, we will just have to
KM>> agree that we disagree.
KD> Since no other option was given, this must be our prison.
So if we were allowed in the garden of Eden, this planet, which we still
have to live on, would still be our prison would it not? (I still don't
think it's our prison) BTW there is another option.
KM>> No, Christians do not cause rape. If I say that a women doesn't belong
KM>> as a pastor, tell me how does that cause someone to rape a woman?
KD> Easily. It develops the feeling that women are less than men, and thus
KD> to be used by men. Men who see women out of place start getting angry
KD> and wanting to put them back in their places.
Start getting angry? I don't believe that women should be pastors, so I
automatically get angry about it? I'de like to see your source for this
belief.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [1]
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:15:17
EID:9128 208139e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcc03
REPLY: 1:207/212 d19353e6
Tuesday March 19 1996 20:23, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Pascal's Wager is that since there are only 2 choices, God [i.e. the
KD>> God of the Bible] and no god, you might as well believe in God so you
KD>> get any advantages of that. Since there are any number of
KD>> OTHER possibilities, that is a false dichotomy.
KM>> But that's your opinion isn't it?
KD> Actually? It's not opinion, it's fact. Anything which lists only 2
KD> options when there are other logical options is a false dichotomy.
There is only two options, period, fancy words won't change that fact.
KD> For example: an unwillingly pregnant woman saying "raise the baby/have
KD> an abortion" as her only options is creating a false dichotomy, right?
KD> Because there is at LEAST one other option.
Depends on the person.
KM>> I have to wonder how many true Christians you've met. Not in the
KM>> influence on the people? I've seen it, maybe just a small amount, but
KM>> I have seen it.
KD> All I see are murders and the violation of my rights by Christians.
What classifies those people as Christians?
KM>> By believing in God, I can't believe that there are any other options,
KM>> can't you see that? To me there is only God, no others, to believe
KM>> otherwise would be against my own beliefs.
KD> True. You believe in God. But there are a plethora of other LOGICAL
KD> alternatives.
Your opinion, not mine.
KD>> Yet consider what a Muslim would learn about you from HIS holy book.
KM>> I've had a long conversation with a Muslim about God, the Koran and
KM>> the Bible, he told me that he believed in the Koran and the Bible,
he
KM>> got real confused about that when I showed him how they differed.
KD> Exactly.
And when he walked away he knew that Jesus Christ did die for his sins,
and that he was the Son of God, not just a prophet.
KD>> Again, you're relying on a false dichotomy.
KM>> Again, that's your believe and your opinion, not mine.
KD> A false dichotomy is proven by the existence of more than 2 options
when
KD> the other person is claiming only 2.
There are no other options.
KD>> Considering things you don't believe is mind sharpening. One of the
KD>> reasons I love reading and writing Science Fiction so much. Science
KD>> fiction writers don't write what they think will happen, they take
KD>> WHAT IF's.
KM>> Would it surprise to know that I love science fiction?
KD> A little. The fact that you enjoy it but can't open your mind just a
bit
KD> and see that your statement the only alternative to God is NO GOD is
a
KD> false dichotomy makes me wonder.
As a Christian, I cannot believe that there are any other options.
KD>> How many alternatives were there to my being at that school?
KD> Anser the question.
That's what I thought.
KD>> That's your problem. Thought experiments are CRUCIAL to developing
KD>> thinking skills. Included in thought experiments is accepting the
KD>> possibility of something you vehemently disagree with.
KM>> Accept something that I disagree with? Why would I want to do that?
KD> Accept the logical possibility.
Logical possibility, with all I have been through and experience, if the
God in the Bible does not exist, there is no God at all.
KD> You disagree with people having homosexual sex, correct?
And many other things as well.
KD> Yet you have to
KD> admit it is logically occurring, probably as you read this.
Logically occurring? I don't see the logic of it, it's plan fact, it does
occur? Logically? No, I don't see the logic of it, but then, I don't have
any homosexual tendencies, don't see the logic of two men or women having
sex. Logically looking at how man and woman are made, they should be having
sex with the opposite sex, not the same sex.
KD> I disagree
KD> with rape, murder, and theft, yet I sadly admit they are VERY probably
KD> occurring as I write this.
KD> There's a difference between stating that something is true, and
KD> accepting it as a logical alternative to what one does believe. You
seem
KD> to accept the logical alternative of NO GOD, though you don't believe
KD> that. What I'm trying to tell you is that there are many OTHER
KD> alternatives other than CHRISTIAN GOD/NO GOD.
And that is still your opinion, not mine, and never will be. Either God
exist, there is none at all. Period, end of line.
KD> Not one of them may be
KD> true, but by the information I have, they're no less possible than your
KD> Christian god.
Your opinion, your thoughts not mine. Just because you see it as the logical
option does not mean that everyone must think that way.
KM>> conservinazi?
KD> Christian right.
Never heard of it.
KD> Anti homosexual,
obviously.
KD> anti woman's rights,
No, I am not, I believe in the original intent of it.
KD> anti first
KD> amendment,
hardly
KD> anti anybody but white upper middle class and upper class
KD> males.
Wrong again.
KD> Pro fetus only because it gives them a handle to control women.
Pro fetus? You mean, anti abortion?
KD> Pro religion but only THEIR religion.
I hate religion, figure that statement out.
KM> KM>>> You want to have verification that God exist? But you refuse
to
KM> KM>>> believe by faith. Without faith you cannot verify that he exist.
KM>> It KM>> takes faith, not physical evidence to believe in God.
KD>> Faith is belief WITHOUT verification.
KM>> Now faith is the substance of things hope for, the evidence of things
KM>> not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
KD> This is something my supposedly god given mind is NOT capable of. I
was
KD> given a brain that requires evidence, thank you.
And the evidence that you need has been provided, however, you refuse to
accept the scriptures as the evidence.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [2]
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:28:18
EID:9128 20813b80
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcc71
REPLY: 1:207/212 7ffe86e4
Tuesday March 19 1996 20:35, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Will you admit that those involved with your so called Messiah could
KD>> have been intentionally lying?
KM>> No reason to admit that which I do not believe is true now is there?
KD> Human beings lie, do you admit that?
No doubt about it.
KD>> Why bother making something a sin if there aren't any?
KM>> It's a sin to think that there is another god.
KD> It's a sin to think?
Nope.
KM>> You do not think that God could inspire those? Besides, I do not
KM>> believe that every Bible is infallible, there are many that I would
KM>> not be caught dead reading.
KD> Oh are you another King James nut?
How'de you guess?
KD>> Circular. I only believe things that evidence has led me to believe
KD>> could be true.
KM>> You call it circular, I call it scriptural. Luke 16:31
KD> Using scripture to attempt to justify scripture is circular.
That's your problem, not mine.
KD>> It doesn't take setting your faith aside to realize that Pascal's
KD>> Wager is a false dichotomy IN LOGIC. You're willing to consider
KD>> the possibility of NO god, why not all the other possibilities?
KM>> From my stand point there is no other possibility.
KD> Huh?
Either the God of the Bible that I read exists, or there is no God at all.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Kenneth the neo-atheist
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:30:19
EID:9a0e 20813bc0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcd7a
Monday March 18 1996 16:05, DAVID RICE mumbled to KENNETH MCABEE:
DR> Satan is not "also known as" Lucifer. Satan is a totally
DR> different god than Lucifer, with his own aspects and
DR> attributes (to use the technical terms).
Only one God. And it's not Satan/Lucifer.
KM>> that was his problem, he thought he was.
DR> Funny how you give your gods thoughts.
I don't have any "gods".
KM>> I don't believe in hundreds of thousands of other gods,
KM>> because the don't exist.
DR> In other words, you lack belief in them. Ergo, you're atheist.
Nope, can't be an atheist because I believe in God.
KM>> God in the Bible, the one that sent his Son[sic] to die
KM>> on a cross for all our sins, does exist and always has.
DR> Since there exists no more evidence for that freaky claim as
DR> there is evidence that god's sons Hercules and Perseus (among
DR> other sons of god) exists.
DR> Hince my question: you are an atheist, and yet to still
DR> cling to the Christian gods. How is it you deny so many of
DR> the gods, and not deny the other gods?
There are no other gods to deny, the only God that exist is the one that
sent his Son to die on the cross.
KM>> No pride, not rebellion, just following the truth of the
KM>> Bible, there is only One[sic] True[sic] God[sic],
DR> I.e. you're a neo-atheist. You lack belief in the hundreds of
DR> thousands of gods that exist.
Sorry but the dictionary disagrees with you.
KM>> and there has only been One[sic], not two, not three, not
KM>> a few, only One[sic].
DR> In actual FACT, there are so many gods, one would be hard
DR> pressed to list them all.
There are no other gods.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:35:20
EID:ae68 20813c60
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fce09
Thursday March 21 1996 15:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
KM>> The average so called Christian will kill someone and think that he's
KM>> lost his salvation because of it. No one says that what they did was
KM>> right, only that God will forgive them for it. Someone conscience will
KM>> get to them whether they claim to be a Christian or not. If they are
a
KM>> Christian and killing someone does not bother them, then they would
KM>> not have been bothered by even if they were not a Christian. The
KM>> average true Christian, would be bothered by it more, because not only
KM>> have they broken man's law, and God's law, but there are countless
KM>> others that will end up in hell because they destroyed thier witness
KM>> of Christ to others.
BJ> Same difference. The fact still remains that the Christian mythos has
left
BJ> a loophole when it comes to sin. And more Christians than not justify
BJ> their actions by using this loophole. If there were no such thing as
BJ> forgiveness, and you had to answer for your every action, would your
BJ> behavior change?
Probably not, we are creatures of habit...
BJ>>> Check out a song by Anthrax called "Room for One More"...it deals
BJ>>> with this very subject...
KM>> Who is Anthrax?
BJ> Heavy metal group that was real big in the late 80's...still around,
but
BJ> not as popular as they used to be. If you're interested in hearing the
BJ> song, it can be found on the album "Sound of White Noise"
NO thank you, I have always hated heavy metal. I don't consider it music,
just noise.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: HELLO!
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:37:21
EID:bdf2 20813ca0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fce94
Thursday March 21 1996 15:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
BJ>>> How do you explain the other gods mentioned in that Bible of yours?
KM>> Ok, give me a passage.
BJ> Thou shalt not have any other gods before me" is the first one that
comes
BJ> to mind, although I know there are others...
KM>>>> I have seen Muslim turn from the Koran and start believing in the
KM>>>> Bible. To me, they are believing in a false religion, God is the
KM>>>> ONLY option, which makes him the logical one as well.
BJ>>> The only option for you, or the only option for everyone?
KM>> YES!
BJ> You didn't answer the question. Please do so.
I already gave my answer.
KM>>>> It's not wrong, and I will not entertain the thought.
BJ>>> Not surprising. You fundies have a habit of simplistic, black and
BJ>>> white thinking. Part of being truly wise is being smart enough not
to
BJ>>> accept anything without question. Nothing is absolute, there are no
BJ>>> givens in life. Turning a blind ear to what you don't want to hear
BJ>>> doesn't change the fact that perhaps someone other than you may be
BJ>>> right.
KM>> There you go, assuming that I have never questioned it.
BJ> If you have indeed questioned it, then why do you still follow the mythos
BJ> regardless of all the contradictions and inconsistencies?
I don't see all the ctradictions and inconsistencies that you do. I find
them to be misunderstandings or misinterpertations. I have come to grips
with my doubts, and one thing that I do not doubt is that God exist.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:39:22
EID:1449 20813ce0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcf74
Thursday March 21 1996 15:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
SM>>>>>>> For you to tempt it, it would have to exist first.
KM>>>>>> He does.
BJ>>>>> I've been gone almost a year, and I'm willing to wager you still
BJ>>>>> haven't produced one shred of evidence to show this...
KM>>>> Evidence
BJ>>> >> to
KM>> But they did matter in the point that I was trying to make.
BJ> Not really, when you come right down to it. You were using simplistic
BJ> thinking to answer a difficult question.
And if that is the way I want to answer it, that is my right.
BJ>>> My point is simple. You can't use circular logic to show that
BJ>>> something exists. (i.e. How do you know God exists? Cause the bible
BJ>>> says so...How
BJ> do
BJ>>> you know the Bible exists? Because God says so...) That, m'dear, does
BJ>>> not work in a rational sense. What we are speaking of is evidence
BJ>>> outside the Bible...
KM>> I know the Bible exist because it is sitting in front of me. I know
KM>> God exist because the Bible says so. According to you, that's not
KM>> circular.
BJ> To use that logic would be the same as saying the easter bunny exists
BJ> because I have a stuffed animal of hir.
Watch it, your starting to agree with me.
BJ>>>>> Yeppers. Still beating your son, Ken?
KM>>>> Never claimed that I did beat my son.
BJ>>> I remember getting into numerous arguments with you on this subject.
BJ>>> Are you now a liar in addition to a child abuser? (To all others
BJ>>> reading
BJ> this:
BJ>>> Did any of you happen to archive the post where Ken was speaking of
BJ>>> beating his son? Some of you older 'Smokers will remember this
BJ>>> vividly)
KM>> Are you sure it was me, and not Jerry Wilcox?
BJ> You're right...sorry about that...I've been gone too long and I've made
BJ> the mistake of mixing two fundies up. You all pretty much spout the
same
BJ> BS anyway.
Some of it's the same that true, but the conversations that he got into
and the ones that I engage in, are quite different.
BJ>>>>> Produce him, and we will.
KM>>>> Stick around you'll see him eventually.
BJ>>> Sorry, Ken...I have better things to do with my time then wait around
BJ>>> for your imaginary playfriend to appear.
KM>> You will met him one day, that you can count on.
BJ> Read above. Same thing applies.
Read above. Same thing applies.
KM>>>>>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us,
KM>>>>>> however anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked
him
KM>>>>>> for a sign, he refused, he would not give them the sign that they
KM>>>>>> requested directly of him. We know Christ by the things that he
KM>>>>>> did, the signs
BJ>>>>> Perhaps because he was blowing smoke?
KM>>>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
KM>>>> anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a
KM>>>> sign, he refused, he would not give them the sign that they
KM>>>> requested directly of him. We know Christ by the things that he did,
KM>>>> the signs
BJ>>>
BJ>>> Stop doin' the 'ole fundie shuffle...As some of the vets are so fond
BJ>>> of saying, I'll pour...Unless you are full of shit and a hypocrite
to
BJ>>> boot, you'd better start chugging that Draino. Your God commands it
BJ>>> as a sign
BJ> of
BJ>>> faith...
to be continued....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:43:23
EID:1449 20813d60
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcfda
Thursday March 21 1996 15:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
KM>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
BJ>
BJ> Hmm...nothing left to say, Ken? Argumentum ad nauseum won't win you
this
BJ> one. As I said before, either chug the Draino or shut the fuck up.
This says everthing that I need to say, and yes, you get the pleasure of
deleting it again.
Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however anytime
one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign, he refused,
he would not give them the sign that they requested directly of him. We
know
Christ by the things that he did, the signs were those miracles that he
performed for the faithful, not for the unfaithful. Since a Christian is
someone who is suppose to be following in the footsteps of Christ, we are
suppose to do those things that he told us to do, and to follow his examples
of what to do and when to do it. His example of what to do when the
unfaithful ask for a sign such as drinking poison is very clear. He would
not give it, therefore, following his example, we will not give it. How
can
you tell a Christian then? By the things that they do, not the things that
you demand of them to do. Matthew 4:7 "Jesus said unto him, it is written
again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." That's pretty clear, we are
not
to tempt the Lord, to mix a drink of poison just to drink it, to prove that
we
have faith, would be tempting God. It would be us, the Christian, saying
to
God, go ahead protect us like you said you would, that would be us seeking
a
sign from God, just as you do. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I
will
not drink you mixture, but not because of what you claim, that I do not
have
faith, but because I do have faith, and I do believe in the Word of God,
not
just one or two verses, but all of the Word of God. And that includes the
part
that says "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (In case
you
can't remember thats in Luke 16:31) So according to the Bible, since you
refuse
to have faith to start with, you would not believe even if I drank it, died,
and came back to life! No, I will not drink for you, you will not tempt
me
enough to make me tempt my God. Your disclaiming my faith, will not make
me
unfaithful, it does not change the fact that if when I die, I will spend
eternity with Lord forever, and when those that do not have faith in him
before they die, die, that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire,
where the beast and false prophet will be.......
Maybe one of these days you'll read it and learn something.
Kenneth Mcabee
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:45:24
EID:1d54 20813da0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fd0d6
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3153f208
Friday March 22 1996 14:42, Sue Armstrong mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
SA> A lone voice in the wilderness, Kenneth mournfully howled out
SA> "Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees"
FR>> "In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read
FR>> through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in
FR>> His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the
FR>> brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against
FR>> the Jewish poison.
KM>> The scourge was not seized, it was made. He did not drive the men out
KM>> of the temple with it, but rather the animals.
SA> So Jesus hated animals? Definitely NOT my kind of guy.
Nope, he hated them selling those animals in his temple, so he drove the
animals out of it.
SA> Gee, the Shaolin kwoon where I took martial arts welcomed animals.
SA> One student used to bring his dog occasionally, and no one chased
SA> the dog out with big whips. In fact, the instructor lightly
SA> chastised another student for suggesting it was the dog that was
SA> "out of place" when we were asked to figure out what was wrong
SA> in the room. (Turned out to be that a training sword was replaced
SA> upside down.)
And the Shaolin kwoon is not the house of God.
SA> I've noticed that as far as Christianity goes, however, even
SA> during the "blessing of the animals" that some churches run each
SA> year, the animals are kept OUTside, and aren't allowed within the
SA> church itself.
Where's the scripture basis for the "blessing of the animals"?
Kenneth Mcabee
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:49:25
EID:d05e 20813e20
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fd142
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3151c1eb
Thursday March 21 1996 20:52, David Worrell mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>>> that no matter what you are told, you will always consider what
KM>>>> someone says that has faith, a lie, no matter what you are told.
DW>>> See what I mean? You couldn't be more wrong. Run back into your
DW>>> hole and throw some babble verses at me now, li'l fundy.
KM>> Really David? You've yet to prove it any differently.
DW> You've told me that you were married and have at least one child, if
I
DW> remember correctly. I did not consider that to be a lie. By your statement
DW> above, this must mean that you have no faith. If you had faith, then
I
DW> would have considered your statement a lie, right?
DW> Do you enjoy showing your stupidity to the world, Ken?
David,
Do you enjoy deleting stuff from messages just to make people look stupid
David?
Kenneth Mcabee
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..
|Date: 01 Apr 96 21:33:00
EID:8bac 2081ac20
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00183a44
Elliott,
EF>In a message dated 03-21-96 Larry Bevard wrote to Jim Germiquet:
EF>
EF>> As far as the Crusades
EF>> goes, the main purpose of most of them was not religious, but were
for
EF>> money and power.
EF>
EF>
EF>Were the children of the Childrens Crusade in it for the money and power
EF>too?
I already said that the children's Crusade was different. But, it
still had as a basis the power of the Church behind the consept.
Admidantly, it was based on religious beliefs, but also look at the
difference. The Children were sent unarmed, as a pure (so thought the
Pope) force to show the power of God. It didn't work.
Peace,
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 01 Apr 96 21:33:00
EID:17ff 2081ac20
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00183a5b
Anthony,
AG>Dear Brother Larry Bevard,
AG>
AG>Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks for the greeting.
AG>LB> Besides that, both the books of Wisdom and Ecclus. are Not Biblical
AG>LB> books. They are included in the Catholic bible but even the catholic
AG>LB> Church realizes that they are not on the same plane as the rest of
AG>LB> the books of the OT.
AG>
AG>There are a number of additional books in the Roman Catholic versions
of the
AG>Bible. Some of them have make absolutely absurd claims contrary to
the
AG>Bible.
I have read the additional books in the RC version, and some of them
are contrary to what is else where recorded, but others show the
thoughts and beliefs of the Jewish people as the time for Christ return
grew near. But, for me, what we have in our present bible is more than
enough for me.
AG>LB> In the New Testement, Adam bears the brunt of the blame for bringing
AG>LB> Sin and Death into the world.
AG>
AG>No Brother, that is a misunderstanding. What Adam did was to `save'
his
AG>wife
AG>by joining her across the time line and the Life line when she should
have
AG>been
AG>burnt as says God's Word which is for ever settled in heaven. In
AG>this way death came upon mankind and as man was the god of this world
upon
AG>all creation because all were under Adam when he forfeited his dominion
to
AG>Satan. You have read and misunderstood Romans 5:17.
AG>
AG>Adam could not sin. He was the son of God and no man born of God can
commit
AG>sin
AG>(I John 3:12; 5:18).
I have read your discussion of this before, and I feel that it is
taking the genealogy as recorded in Luke 3, too literally. But, I also
know that I would be hard pressed to change your mind on this, so I will
back off of the discussion.
AG>LB> Eve's sin was that she allowed herself to be decieved.
AG>
AG>`Sin' is unbelief in the revealed Word of God (period). It is the opposite
AG>of
AG>faith. The elected (or sons and daughters of God) cannot be deceived
on the
AG>Word of God. Eve was not the spoken Word of God but a byproduct of Adam
who
AG>was. (Can you see the type of Christ and His Bride?) Eve was not God's
AG>original creation, but a by-product of Adam, made up of his flesh and
bone.
AG>The true Church is a byproduct of Christ, made up of the Holy Spirit,
taken
AG>from His side after He fell asleep on Calvary as Adam fell asleep in
Eden.
Yes, I can see your point on this.
AG>Eve was deceived. She was the only way Satan could inject himself into
the
AG>human race.
Wasn't that what I said?
AG>Kind regards, and God bless ...
He already has and I Trust that He will continue to bless me.
Anthony, in all of the messages I have read from you, I know you are
firm in the Lord and love Him. Just because we don't agree on the finer
points of the bible, I know we both agree on the more important points,
the ones that make us who we are, Children of the One God, and brothers
to each other and to Jesus.
May the peace and joy that only comes from our Father above keep you
and bless you always.
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 01 Apr 96 21:33:00
EID:42db 2081ac20
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00183a72
Hi Elliott,
EF>RH> And why was death the result? Did not God decide that? Worse, did
not
EF>RH> God know in advance that Eve would decide to eat?
EF>
EF>AS> Yes. But of course, free will means nothing if you
EF>AS> have nothing to turn TO. You don't have free will in a
EF>AS> narrow hall with one door.
EF>
EF>But it isn't an either/or proposition. For instance if your god knows
the
EF>future he knows, prior to his creation of each human, whether that person
EF>will _FREELY_ choose to obey or not. It would in no way deny free will
for
EF>God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would choose sin.
He
EF>simply creates only those people who he knows will _freely_ choose the
EF>religiously correct path.
How true, and I would have wished that he did. But, He knew that
"all (would) fall short of the Glory of God." So, "if all have sinned",
then His choice was to create of to not create. We do see that He
decided that He made a mistake when he brought the flood to distroy
everything, but then He saw that Noah was rightous and saved him and his
family. How do we know that God knew that all would sin? The Bible
states that before God even created us, He had it planned to send the
Redeemer, Jesus, His only Son, to bring us all back to Him. We can see
in a few cases in the Old Testement that there was people that obeyed
God and found favor with Him, but generally, the people failed to obey
God's commands and suffered death. But, this showed that it was
possible to choose right as opposed to the wrong that the reason of the
world followed.
EF>AS> As for
EF>AS> whether God knew beforehand, I'm not sure. Does God
EF>AS> only see one future,
EF>AS> narrowly defined, or does He see several possible
EF>AS> futures, depending on
EF>AS> our choices?
EF>
EF>If he sees "several possible futures" then obviously he doesn't know
which
EF>will transpire and thus he is not omniscient. If he _does_ know which
will
EF>occur then the future must be set in stone. There is no way around this.
Let's say He does see one future only. Does that make the future
set is stone? Or is it possible that God can change the future of
people by coming into their lives and thus change the future. He's done
this in the case of Abram, Moses, David, Saul and others in the Bible as
well as many others in all walks of life. We tend to think linearly
about time, but God is outside of time, and think as all time as now.
EF>RH> And why cannot we repent AFTER death, when we have the information
we
EF>RH> needed to make a better choice?
It would be nice wouldn't it.
EF>AS> And do what?
EF>AS> If Hitler repents after death, does that help those
EF>AS> he killed in life?
EF>
EF>How would it help them if Hitler repented 5 minutes before death? Yet
the
EF>way I understand it, your god _would_ accept Hitler's sincere contrition
EF>at that point without regard to helping "those he killed in life".
EF>
EF>AS> Can he do any good
EF>AS> works that will amend what happened?
EF>
EF>Likewise, could he do sufficient good works 5 minutes before death?
Let's take another example, that of Jeffery Dolmer. He was Baptised
into the Lord just months before he was killed in prison. He knew that
he could never do enough to make up for all of the men and boys that he
had killed and ate, he knew that even his death would not repay all of
the suffering that he caused, but, Thank God, even his sins were
forgiven by God, and I rest assured that he is in heaven now. You see,
someone already died for all of our sins, no matter what they are or
even what they will be. God accepted the death of Jesus as full payment
for our sins, because we cannot do enough to earn our way to Heaven.
So, yes if Hitler had repented and followed the Lord's command to be
baptised, even 5 min. before his death, he would have been fully
covered, his sins would not be held against him. Does that mean that
Jeffery or Hitler then would not have to pay for their sins. No, they
still would have to make reparparation for their sins. It is like if I
stoled your car, kill your wife and then found Jesus, I still would be
accountable to pay for what I had done to hurt you, but according to
God, He would say; "What Sin?"
A lot to think about, isn't it?
In His peace and Love,
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: 20 MOST DISGUSTING CA
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:752d 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org dff7d74c
JB>-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Sean Mccullough <=-
JB> SM> 20- Porn directors who dress up children to look like lawyers.
JB> BJ> 21- Television evangelists
JB>22- Television evangelists who are also lawyers.
23-Television evangelists who dress up porn directors to look like
children.
---
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: False Christians
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:db1a 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7bd34bd5
SM> > Why is the Christian Coalition supporting Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan?
SM>Because they have three remaining living neurons between them??
SM> > Bogus Bob is a 33rd. degree Mason,
SM>There are only three degrees in Masonry.
Sean, there are 32 degrees in Masonry. A third degree Mason is a
'Master Mason'. There are two Masonic organizations this Master Mason
is now eligible to join, Scottish Rite and York Rite. After they have
completed the 28 degrees on one of those two paths they are eligible to
take the 32nd degree and join the Shriners.
You do run across assorted mention of 33+ degrees, usually such rumors
also have secret jewish groups ruling the world economy and UFO aliens
infiltrating the CIA.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:2daf 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 683e3361
DC>-> On 03-12-96 18:47, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> GM> THE KING COULD
DC> DC>But the Queen told him to go beat off instead.
DC> KW> 'Twas the night of the the King's Castration, and the King was giving
DC> KW> a ball. His Left one.
DC>
DC>BTW, do you think that Mooth ever reads any of the responses to
DC>him? My guess is that he's an automoron...
If he did, I doubt that he read more than the first few to hit his
mailbox.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * -I am not young enough to know everything-
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:f86c 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org df5b9918
DC>-> On 03-12-96 18:47, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> KW> I am not either purple, Styx. I am a proud pale blue Scottish
DC> DC> JB> With tartan overlay?
DC> DC>Never thought that she was tan, but I was unsure about the tart part..
DC> KW> :P
DC>Thank you for that snappy "come back". (At least I didn't
DC>comdemn you to hell with Michael Hardy as your compatriot!)
DC>After all, I do have a sense of humor... ;)
Ugh! What have I ever done to deserve that? If you are going to
condemn me to hell, at least pick someone interesting to talk to as my
compatriot. However, I can see the humorous possibilities of you
condemned for all time, chained between Jim Staal and Assmotron. ;) No,
best not. That much senseless babbling would cause a normal person to
retreat into shock in no time (on the other hand, are you exactly
normal?).
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * .. Hmph! Seriousness! Sobriety! A Jedi craves these not!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [1/2] Re: Tithe 01/
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:0275 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6a9fc4e2
JG> >>> Part 1 of 2...
JG>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> JG> KW> Elliott, if you had taken the time and trouble to have read
(and
JG> JG> KW> quoted) that passage in context it would have been obvious even
to yo
JG> JG> KW> that the subject under discussion was charities (such as those
pushed
JG> JG> KW> by TV evangelists) that were designed mostly to line the pockets
of t
JG> JG>And of course you have the documents to back up the claim that monies
JG> JG>specifically donated for starving children were going to choir robes
JG> JG>and such ?
JG> KW> Jim, please go back and reread the above exchange. Then please
point
JG> KW> out just where I stated that they moneys were specifically donated
for
JG> KW> starving children. I suppose you are yet another xtian that
JG> KW> has a great deal of trouble understanding what is before your eyes.
JG> KW> This is somewhat amusing considering your dependence on the written
JG> KW> word for the existence of your god.
JG>Okay, with the reference to charities, I thought you were accusing the
JG>church of using the funds meant for charities, for nice robes.
JG>I am glad you are not doing that. You are upset that there are hungry
JG>people while the church has nice robes.
Jim, you do seem to be the poster child for lack of reading
comprehension. The subject was (take this slowly, and sound out the
words) TV evangelists who scam money to line their own pockets. You
know, the air conditioned dog house for jesus set.
JG>You know Jesus had the same thing. Mary was pouring expensive perfume
JG>on the feet and hair of Jesus because he had freed her from the bondage
JG>of sin and unhappiness, etc etc. She was honoring him and god.
JG>Judas berated her saying, that perfume could have been sold and the
JG>money used to feed the poor.
JG>Jesus said, "There will always be poor people, What Mary is doing, is
JG>preparing me for burial. WHat she is doing will be told throughout the
world
JG>in memory of her."
So it is far better to scent a corpse than to feed a child? Interesting
morality there.
JG>The point is that yes we have hungry people. SHould we then sell all
the
JG>artifacts in our museums, and open them up as hostels ? Should we take
all
JG>the money from scientific groups trying to find dinosaur bones for
JG>our museums, and use it to feed hungry people ? Should we as people,
or
JG>institutions or churches, give away all our money to the poor and become
JG>poor ourselves, and unable to help anyone else ?
Jimmy, boy, you can't have it both ways. No matter how hard you try to.
JG>People who give money to their church, are certainly helping
JG>the poor that those churches support. But that money also pays the rent
JG>for that church. It pays to keep it clean. It pays to make it look
JG>beautiful. How much nicer is it to be in a church with a choir dressed
in
JG>blue robes instead of ragged shirts and blue jeans. And these people
JG>pay for this priviledge.
JG>Just as you might pay to have a nice house or apartment to live in,
JG>instead of a rundown ramshackle shack. SHould you sell your nice house
JG>or move to a cheaper apartment so that you can give all that extra
JG>money to the poor ? No... you take a portion of your money, and you
JG>use it to help those less fortunate, you do not become poor yourself
JG>to do so.
JG>The same with churches. They should strive to set an example of what
JG>serving god can provide for us. Everyone giving a portion to help
JG>others. The more you are given and have, the more you can give others.
JG>Now look at this 10% idea.
JG>Churches ask for or suggest a 10% tithe.
JG>If a small church collects 100 dollars , it gives 10 dollars to help
the
JG>poor, 40 dollars to pay the rent. 30 dollars to pay the church workers
JG>, it then has 20 dollars
JG>left for saving and making the church a better place.
JG>They have given their 10% to help others.
JG>Now if a church collects 100 MILLION dollars, They give 10 MILLION
JG>to the needy, they pay 20 MILLION dollars for rent, 10 MILLION for
JG>church workers, and still have 60 MILLION left for other things.
JG>Maybe they give another 10 million for needy people. Maybe they buy
JG>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JG>some more nice robes or a new organ for their church members who
JG>deserve it because they have provided the 20 million dollars for
JG>the needy.
JG>Do you see what I mean. Just because you have millions of dollars and
JG>are rich and fortunate, does not mean you are forsaking your duty
JG>to help those less fortunate.
JG>In fact you may be giving TWICE the required or suggested amount to
JG>help others, and still have much for yourself.
(Continued to next message)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [1/2] Re: Tithe 02/
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:f275 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ec5b179b
(Continued from previous message)
(Continued to next message)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!-LeoX
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [2/2] Re: Tithe 01/
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:fd91 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 70f2e12a
JG> >>> Part 2 of 2...
JG> KW> Ask Jesus. It seems to me that he had some definite opinions on
the
JG> KW> subject. If you wish to worship in a whited sepulchre, and wear
both
JG> KW> of your coats at once, it's between you and him.
JG>Jesus was Jesus. He did what was God's purpose for him. No one else is
JG>Jesus. Some people may choose to do the same kind of missionary work,
JG>with just the clothes on their back and nothing else. Others may choose
JG>to be more like Solomon who was a great man of god and yet one of the
JG>most wealthiest men that ever lived. And some may be anywhere inbetween.
JG>Wealth is not a judge of how godly you are, with the poorest person
JG>being the most righteous and the wealthiest person being the biggest
JG>sinner.
JG> JG>People who take on the high degree of responsibility of handling
large
JG> JG>organizations should be paid accoordingly whether they are secular
or
JG> JG>religious organizations.
JG> JG>Should a christian bricklayer not get paid as much as a non christian
JG> JG>bricklayer ?
JG> KW> My, my, my, I have to admire your agility. How you've managed to
JG> KW> stretch from my comments about the vanity of worshipping in rich
fancy
JG> KW> churches when people are going hungry to your self righteous
JG> KW> justifications concerning high salaried 'charity' officers and brick
JG> KW> bats about bricklayers is truly amazing. Jim, you really need to
make
JG> KW> up your mind over your role in here: are you going to play Church
Lady
JG> KW> or Emily Lattella? Your attempts to do both are amusing, but only
JG> KW> point up your poor reading skills.
JG>It seems to me that you are crying, that because the churches are rich,
JG>they are godless or evil. All my replying here has been to point out
JG>that I disagree with such a general idea as and I will now QUOTE one
JG>simple example of what I am hearing you say above " vanity of worshipping
JG>in rich fancy churches when people are going hungry" ....vanity ???
JG>You throw around judgements as if you were god with the authority to
JG>decide who is vain and worthy of hellfire. Just because a person is
JG>wealthy or worships in a fancy church, does not mean they are vain. They
JG>might give a bigger percentage of their money to help the poor than you
do.
JG>Maybe they give 25% of their 100 million dollars. 25 Million dollars,
while
JG>you may give 0% of your 10 thousand dollars. But of course they would
be
JG>big sinners because they worship in a big fancy church and you would
be
JG>a saint because you didnt have as much money.
Finished screaming and stamping? Finished howling that you are being
judged as you have judged? As for being a god, which one did you have
in mind? Liken me to that child murdering rapist of an over blown
bully described in the xtian Bible, and you will manage to offend me.
As for my use of the term vanity, I would suggest that you consult a
dictionary. Saint, by the way, isn't something that I would describe
myself as. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I was in any way
associated with the protestant ones, and majority of the older catholic
saints are disguised old Gods and Goddesses (research just who St Afra
really was if you want a good laugh).
JG>You do not even know these people that you would summarily cast into
JG>the fires of hell, based on the fancy church they happen to worrship
JG>God in.
You right about that. All I can use to judge them on is their actions,
and the fruits of their labor. While there are people who are good
people and who also happen to call themselves by the title 'Christian',
in my personal experience, they do seem to be few and far in between.
JG> KW> As I said above, that is between them and their Corn King. If their
JG> KW> vanity is what they value, let them indulge it. Just don't expect
me
JG> KW> to not notice the inherent hypocrisy in their statements.
JG>Hypocrisy ? Judge not, lest ye be judged. In the same way that you judge
JG>others, you will be judged.
JG>First take the log out of your own eye, then you will be able to see,
to
JG>take the speck out of your brothers.
JG>Not intended to be directed to you, because I really do not know you
JG>personally, but something to think about, based on some of the feelings
JG>I have experienced reading your comments.
I think that you are very typically xtian. Perhaps you are just
phrasing yourself somewhat clumsily, but you sound that you are saying
that no one dare judge a christian, no matter what they do and to who.
I don't care if you had intended your comments personally, because I
simply consider the source, and wonder what your own log is.
JG>... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
JG>___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
JG>--- GEcho 1.00
JG> * Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07Demos*Music*Art*Coding (1:2424/1004)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ... Go grow some pubic hair. Ryan Shaw
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [2/2] Re: Tithe 02/
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:0d91 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 97e262d6
(Continued from previous message)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:9009 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4a7ecba9
JG> DC> So far, you have impressed nobody .
JG>I don't really care. I come here to exchange ideas, not to impress anyone.
JG>If I wanted to impress someone, I would side with one side. Instead I
JG>usually end up being in everyones bad books. It doesn't really bother
me,
JG>I just like to add my own personal opinions to everyone elses. But regardless
JG>somehow I hardly think you have the authority to speak for anybody else
JG>except yourself even if a few people have indicated the agree with you.
Well, you haven't impressed me.
But Dan often does (esp. in the pun threads).
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...A cat is, above all things, a dramatist.
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Posting
|Date: 24 Mar 96 23:31:00
EID:d0d0 2078bbe0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b8f8
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> Sure. What galls me is that we're derided as "ignorant fundies"
MH> for questioning such things as evolution, yet many atheists hold to
MH> evolution -- specifically, naturalistic evolution -- with a fundy-like
MH> fervor even though the facts fall far short of substantiating it, and
MH> they don't see that as equally closed-minded.
Many Christians have accepted evolution, recognizing that the evidence is
too overwhelming to dismiss. Doing so, relegates a major portion of their
religion to the realm of allegory, but they find that preferable to sticking
their heads in the sand and muttering "Is Not!"
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 24 Mar 96 23:42:00
EID:34b4 2078bd40
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b909
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DC> RB> Progressive Conservatives? Do you also have Reactionary
DC> RB> Liberals?
DC>
DC> They are on either side of the Neutral Activists.
I like it when guys like Dole and Gingrich say they have a vision for America.
A vision of what, 1910?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aspirin: Having great ambitions
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: [2/2] Re: lack of any
|Date: 24 Mar 96 23:47:00
EID:aed6 2078bde0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b91a
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
GR> Notice how the woman god has prepared for him isn't his wife yet.
GR>
GR> Wait till he has to wake up next to his princess for the rest of his
life.
GR> Wait till he finds out she actually passes gas, gets sick, wakes up
crabby
GR> has bad breath at times.
Isn't THAT a rude awakening? The delightful creature of my courtship actually
farts.
On a related note, do you suppose theists ever imagine Jesus farting, tossing
his cookies and having bad breath?
GR> Notice how this woman was prepared to meet HIS needs. What about him
meeti
GR> HER needs?
God created woman for the man, not vice versa.
GR> This moron is going to jump into marriage without having a clue as to
what
GR> marriage is all about.
Hopefully, he won't get one of those Stepford wives who actually buy the
biblical line of bull.
GR> I hope she snores.
I hope she snores AND farts.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 25 Mar 96 0:02:00
EID:b13c 20790040
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b92b
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
JB> RB> Thanks Judith. BTW, I LOVE your belly button and would you care
JB> RB> to go out for some quiche and maybe a little dancing?
JB>
JB> DANCING???? What kind of a girl do you think I am? Can't we just
JB> fuck instead?
My Gawd! I've inadvertently stumbled upon the perfect pickup line. All
you single guys, jot this down: "I LOVE your belly button and would you
care to go out for some quiche and maybe a little dancing?"
And to answer your question Judith, YES!
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: better than
|Date: 25 Mar 96 0:09:00
EID:fe18 20790120
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b93c
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DC> RB> Everyone say C-H-E-E-S-E-S! Should the shorter gods kneel in the
DC> RB> front row?
DC>
DC> Nahh, wouldn't be right. Gods should never kneel, unless their
DC> goddesses are present.
We'd probably play hell getting any of the gods to admit they were shorter
anyway (God ego being what it is).
DC> Sure you can! You can do whatever you want. After all, you're
DC> a god...
Ok, I think I'll require that everyone worship me or they'll suffer for
eternity...oh wait, that's been done.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 25 Mar 96 23:45:00
EID:6932 2079bda0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b94d
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
JH> I'd like to kill whatever entity thinks they can force me into
JH> one of these idiotic "The Lady and the Tiger" ethical tests that
JH> only have binary outcomes.
JH> The answer to this one is obvious. Exchange clothes with the chimp.
JH> Grab the fetus... yuch.. wipe hands and forget about fetus. Scream
JH> something about Waco, climb into the tank and run over both the lady
JH> and the tiger. As soon as you cross the county line, get out of the
JH> tank and tell the chimp to keep on driving. Move to Grand Rapids.
You forgot the part about cursing the pope.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 25 Mar 96 23:54:00
EID:5e69 2079bec0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b95e
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
JB> JB> For a violent, science-ignorant society such as the Middle East
had,
JB> JB> would think of Himself as what -they- thought He was, hence act
that
JB> JB> way. But later, as information became more scientific, He would
JB> JB> behave less stupidly....
JB>
JB> JB> (*(chuckle)*)
JB>
JB> RB> I'm more than a little relieved to see that (chuckle), John.
JB>
JB> ARE you now....? (*g*) The above ain't _100%_ humor.... There's some
JB> interesting reasoning behind it.
And maybe we have little universes inside OUR brains. Of course, the inhabitants
of the '19 year old male universe' brains would be running around with perpetual
woodies.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ARGUMENTS
|Date: 26 Mar 96 0:03:00
EID:aead 207a0060
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b96f
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> Partly it is anthromorphism...unable to imagine what it is like to
be God,
AS> so making human parallels. Sometimes it is as you suggest, for evidence
IS
AS> often stronger to convince than sheer faith. (Which is fortunate.)
I don't
AS> see faith as conflicting with evidence. (If my faith is conflicting
with
AS> evidence, it is invariably my interpretation of my faith that is at
fault,
AS> paraphrasing Augustine.) I see it as an extension. I believe I have
good
AS> reasons for my belief in God, but I admit I have no conclusive, just
AS> contributory evidence, and sometimes my faith extends a little further
AS> than the strict evidence would allow.
I don't see sufficient evidence to believe in any gods. But if you choose
to believe and that is the parameters in which you wish to live your ONE
life, that is your prerogative. You've demonstrated that YOUR beliefs are
not particularly threatening or repulsive to the rest of us. But some practitioners
of your religion ARE.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Mar 96 0:21:00
EID:03e4 207a02a0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b980
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> First off, I didn't say believe without evidence. If you can't
AS> necessarily perceive God directly, you might be able to deduce His
AS> existence from the way He shaped the universe. (I.E., the anthropic
AS> coincidences. If one could show that the variables on the universe
could
AS> cover a broad range and still result in intelligent life, any argument
AS> showing design would be nullified. That is NOT what we have.)
Before the 'cosmic variables' argument, we had the 'ideal earth' argument
(the fortuitous placement and conditions of the earth point to a designer).
But then, when one considers the sheer numbers (billions of galaxies with
billions of stars), the 'miracle' of an ideal planet loses some lustre.
The argument for an 'ideal universe' could have the same weakness as the
ideal earth OR this could be the only way the universe could have unfolded
OR this could be the way the universe DID unfold and we are the result.
BTW, I'm not sure I would call this universe 'ideal' where life sustaining
qualities are concerned. Unless you consider an ant floating on a tiny
chip of paint in a barrel of acid 'ideal'.
Your eagerness to assign the universe a creator is on a par with your eagerness
to assign credibility to the resurrection.
AS> Or if there
AS> were thousands of cults which had the disciples claiming to see their
AS> leader rising from the dead, Jesus would be another drop in the bucket,
AS> especially if they risked death, imprisonment, et al for claiming
to
AS> see such a miracle.
If there were thousands of cults which claimed to see risen leaders, the
claim would no longer be extraordinary. It would be more like a 300 game
in bowling.
AS> Oddly enough, that claim of firsthand witness of a
AS> miracle by multiple witnesses is near-unique.
Think about this one Al. Wouldn't an outlandish claim such as a resurrection
(arrived at by deception, delusion or misinformation) be expected to be
near-unique?
AS> As for heaven/hell thing...
-----------------------------------
AS> Golly. Really comforting there.
Let me put it this way: Do you think Christianity would have emerged as
a distinct religion (separate from Judaism) without it's particular twist
on the afterlife?
AS> The Egyptians talked about judging the soul after death by Anubis.
The
AS> more primitive tribes merely talked about ghosts...for everyone. Rather
AS> than a progression from primitive heaven/hell to more enlightened
AS> nonbelief, the progression seems to be from a vague belief in a ghostly
AS> afterlife to a sharp dichotomy.
As with biological evolution, ideological evolution is not always from the
primitive to the advanced. That's why the world isn't populated with atheists.
AS> I think you underrate primitive people severely. I don't think
AS> they are as gullible and credulous as you would like to believe.
Maybe you're right. Maybe modern people are more gullible and credulous
than the primitives. After all, they've got a lot of the answers to nature's
questions and they STILL believe in gods who hurl lightening bolts.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 26 Mar 96 0:48:00
EID:8003 207a0600
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b991
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> RB> There is little similarity between a 1 1/2 year old infant
AS> RB> and a 10 week old fetus.
AS> Give it 68 weeks. You'll see the similarity.
Ah, but there's the rub. Abortion is a matter of timing. The window of
choice is only open a relatively short time.
AS> Sure. But that is true of anything. There are some books that I value
AS> more than a chimp.
You'd kill a chimp before you destroyed a book? Monster!
AS> Um. About the same thing acorns have to do with mighty oak trees. (I.E.,
AS> one is absolutely necessary for the other to develop.)
Which would cause you more distress?.. Smashing an acorn or felling a mighty
oak tree? Which one currently has the most value?
AS> Then, if you are in a coma, not cognizant of anything, have you no
more
AS> rights than a fetus?
I had a 'once functioning' brain. The fetus never acquired a functioning
brain.
AS> Practically any criteria you think of, I can think
AS> of an exception for.
Not an applicable one.
AS> Why not just admit it is abitrary? I have long said
AS> that the abortion debate is not a thing of reason but of definition.
It can be a thing of reason if it isn't clouded by religious influence and
undue emotionalism. If a fetus has no more cognition than a house plant,
then where is the misdeed in choosing to terminate it UNLESS you're influenced
by religion or misplaced emotionalism?
AS> you think a fetus is a human being, than abortion is murder. If you
AS> think a fetus is part of the woman's body, it can be gotten rid of
AS> easily. There is no real comprimise here, and the only hope is that
AS> someday contraception will be so good, and eugenics will be so good,
so
AS> unwanted pregnancies rarely occur, and those that do are raised in
AS> artificial wombs.
Embryos should be taken from women's wombs and made to develop? I see that
as the state commandeering what should be the woman's decision.
AS> Very well, I withdraw the 'contempt'. But I still hold the pro-choice
AS> side is every bit as abitrary as the pro-life side.
If you can show me that a first trimester fetus has any kind of real sentience,
I'll reconsider. As of now, it's more barbaric to dissect a frog than perform
a first trimester abortion.
AS> And a six-month year old is not the same as an adult. Yet both are
AS> protected equally under the law as far as the taking of the life is
AS> concerned.
Here we go with the POST-natal comparisons again. A fetus is a rudimentary
stage of human development, unlike ANY stage of post-natal human.
AS> If by my act I KEPT her from doing so, wouldn't I be? If I kept a
child
AS> locked in a closet all his life, in a foul enviorment, and then end
that
AS> life, can I argue, "Well, he lived such an awful life, he was better
off
AS> dead?"
A child locked in a closet is POST-natal and has nothing to do with fetuses.
AS> Babies in the womb DO react to stimuli. It is not hard to get the
AS> baby to kick in the later stages of pregnancy. They react. They hear
AS> (which is why some newborns respond well to the sound of a mother's
AS> heartbeat, put on tape in the nursury.), etc.
Late stage abortions are only performed in emergencies. Most are performed
in the first trimester when the fetus is about half the size of your little
finger.
AS> Remember, the baby will do
AS> all the things you mentioned above...UNLESS YOU STOP IT. Can I castrate
AS> my sons because they haven't (well, Jamie is going through adolescence)
AS> gone through adolescence yet? Why not? They're not using it...and
the
AS> answer is obvious. Left to time's passage, they WILL use it. Same
with
AS> ALL of the above.
Jamie is fully functional and will probably be quite pissed off if you whack
his weenie. A fetus doesn't know a weenie from a beanie. You could do
anything to the fetus and it wouldn't know a thing (and that's the whole
point).
AS> (Thinking about the fragmented German tribes. Of the Viking raids
on the
AS> rest of Europe. Of the darkest part of the Dark Ages.) Yep. Could
have
AS> been a LOT worse.
And yet, we still see friction between Christian sects and EXTREME friction
between certain monotheisms that share the same roots.
AS> RB> God is simply the figurehead for man's morality.
AS>
AS> Good theory. It's marred by the fact that most early religions do
NOT
AS> believe in a punishment in the afterlife, but that all alike go into
a
AS> misty netherworld which is worse than life.
Why does that mar it? Early religions may have had more to do with taboos
(elementary things that aided survival) than rewards and punishments. Eternal
bliss and eternal damnation required a more 'sophisticated' mind.
AS> Possibly. But no one has come up with a convincing alternative--if
the
AS> Biblical accounts bear no relation to reality, it became convincing
in a
AS> mere twenty years (Paul) when many witnesses to the original events
were
AS> there to confirm or deny. And if you can give me a plausible scenario
AS> that explains how MANY people can think they 'saw' something that
didn't
AS> happen, I WILL opt for door number three.
ALL religions became convincing to their adherents. If humans have demonstrated
anything, it's that they're more than willing to believe incredible tales
involving deities.
The possibility that MANY people (mostly illiterate fanatics) claimed they
saw something is a woefully inadequate reason to jump on the 'Jesus is God'
bandwagon.
AS> I think something must be also said for the validity of the phenomena
AS> claimed in light of the claim Jesus was making. If I say I could raise
men
AS> from the dead, you would go, "Why YOU?" But Jesus claimed equality
with
AS> God, and THEN pulled a miracle. He made a claim and then produced evidence
AS> afterwards for it.
There's one major difference. If YOU claimed you could rise from the dead,
you would be met with mostly skepticism (even from avowed theists). Jesus
made his claim to SUPPORTERS. Cult members of HIS cult. These people would
be much more susceptible to a 'miracle' than a neutral or skeptical audience.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: [1/2] [1/2] Tithe
|Date: 01 Apr 96 22:05:38
EID:823f 2081b0a0
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 1451ffb2
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 233 days
DC> Please explain to me just what any real benefit any professional
DC> sporting event provides to anyone, let alone society in general?
They allow us to take out our tribal aggressions on
neighboring tribes without doing any real damage.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Apr 96 22:05:39
EID:06de 2081b0a0
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 1451ffb3
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 233 days
GM> Man gropes his way through life's dark maze,
GM> To gods unknown he lifts his praise;
GM> But when he seeks to know God's Son,
GM> He finds in Him the Living One.
GM> -Dennis J. De Haan
The woman is groped and pinched by flirts,
To men unknown she lifts her skirts;
But when she seeks the thing to lick,
She finds in her a Real Big Dick.
-Rob J. De Burcham
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:01:00
EID:9583 207f4020
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E3AB2
AS> As sure as I can be, short of a divine revelation. Such would be the
RH> But you are seemingly in conflict with Divine revelation. You don't
RH> like what you read so you reject it as unworthy of a merciful God.
On the contrary. I have read it quite well. Read the passages in Romans
where it says that a pagan's conscience is his advocate before God. I've
read ALL of it, not just latched o a few key verses.
AS> work of a divine Sadist. A divine Sadist would make the world much
AS> more cruel than it is...make you feel razorsharp pain everytime you
AS> breath, or give you a flaming sensation when you have to go to the
AS> bathroom. Though by no means perfect, I see no such flagrant cruelty.
RH> Look around a bit. Check out Africa.
And then check out the Riviera. Much of Africa's immense problems are due
to politics. Farmers here are told to destroy their surplus crops, rather
than ship it to the starving in Africa...and if we did, it would be
confiscated in many cases by political forces. I am not minimizing or
trying to evade the immense problem of the famines in Africa, which are
a
shame and a disgrace to the human race. But they are a disgrace to the
HUMAN race for allowing such to happen, because it IS within our power to
alleviate it.
AS> I rather see us left to pick our own way. I doubt if two of my sons
AS> will ever be baptized or confirmed in any way that means anything,
AS> because they may never be able to signal their understanding of same.
RH> Read it again. You must repent and be baptised, no exceptions.
Yet Jesus specifically says that God is the God "OF Abraham", indicating
that there was an afterlife, and Abraham was with Him. Paul speaks of the
conscience of the pagan being its "advocate" with God. You have to read
the whole thing, Roger. Besides, does a baby have anything to "repent" of?
Anybody can take one verse out and run with it, but reading the whole
thing leads to greater understanding.
AS> If God allows such an affliction, a
AS> God who would still damn them anyway would be no God worthy of
RH> My point exactly. The biblical God is NOT worthy of wordship. You are
RH> just ignoring a hurtful truth.
Could be. I'm certainly not above reading things with bias. But it's like
clapping on to John's statement that a "Chrisian does not sin" and then
ignoring his statement a few verses later that if a Christian succumbs to
temptation, he has an advocate before the Father. I am just reading it with
understanding, and trying not to take one verse out of context. (The
"could be" applies to the ignoring the hurtful truth. Obviously I think
the Biblical God is worthy of worship.)
AS> worship. By the same token, I am not concerned that those who lived
AS> before Christ are necessarily damned...I can use that passage in
AS> Romans to justify the idea that the pagans are saved somewhat by their
AS> good works. But the forgiveness for major sins? I do think that is the
AS> province of Christianity.
RH>
RH> Which leaves a lot of souls suffering who died BEFORE Christ.
Yes; in the sense that murderers had not the option to repent of their
sins, for instance.
AS> See above. I think Socrates and Virgil will have little to worry
RH> You THINK? Evidence, Al.
Again, the section of Romans in which Paul speaks of the conscience of the
pagan being its advocate before God. But obviously I must qualify it with
the "I think". I am not God, and am not privy to His thoughts. And I am
speicifically instructed NOT to judge before the end times.
RH> That's Dante. How about YHVH?
What about Him? I am making informed guesses. Obviously I don't claim a
pipeline with God. But I think I can justify most of the statements I make
concerning God within Scripture.
... All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Treachery
|Date: 31 Mar 96 07:09:00
EID:4cb7 207f3920
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E3DC8
-=> Quoting Mark Craig to All <=-
MC> Beware! Pastor David K. Smith is a government operative. 95% of what
MC> he tells you is objective truth, then he slips in the lie. There is
no
MC> provision in the Constitution for the President to suspend the
MC> document.
Thanks for the warning. You know, you must really enjoy your paranoia.
(PS. to all: what is Mark blathering about? Who's Rev. Smith? Is Mark REALLY
talking about suspending the Constitution? Sincerely, puzzled.)
... Please ignore this message. The author is insane.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick Macfarlane
|Sub: CAMPBELL
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:00:00
EID:52ac 207f4000
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E402A
AS> Maybe that's what we should all strive for...to awaken the
AS> sleeping part that is lulled by the day to day living in this world.
RM> ... Huh? What? Uh.....
RM> Sorry, I missed that.
And have a little fun while doing it. After all, when you're awake, you
are more aware of the GOOD stuff too...
... They got the library at Alexandria. They're not getting mine.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: MESSAGE TO ASMODEUS
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:02:00
EID:77da 207f4040
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E42A0
AS> Echo Olympics. Freestyle Message Irgnoring. But...what if Tonya
AS> Harding comes in and tries to break their typing fingers?
DC> "Irgnoring"? Sounds like you have already attempted to test it
DC> out and she had her baseball bat ready!
Rather her than Lorena Bobbitt. It wouldn't affect my typing, but...
AS> It's amazing the number of people at work who were ready to excuse
AS> Tyson's rape on the grounds that he can fight well.
DC> It's not so much that he can fight well, it's that he can command
DC> a large box office to make money for a lot of people. Justice
DC> may be blind, but it does see a lot better when it's pockets
DC> are filled with cold cash.
DC> It's a pity that people will pay to view someone like that and
DC> ignore the rest of society's ills.
And yet Muhammed Ali was robbed of his title for a time because he
refused to fight in Vietnam. Go figure.
... Entropy always wins.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FRIED ICE CREAM
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:06:00
EID:b251 207f40c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E44F8
AS> I know my mother tried...and failed, using the same recipe. With Pop,
AS> it was definitely an art. But I might try to get it from her, what she
AS> remembers, the next time I talk with her, and perhaps you could
DC> I won't know if its right unless you taste it! And, a recipe is
DC> just a basic guideline. I've been fortunate to be able to make
DC> my Dad's bread the way he did it.
I should have let him apprentice me while I had the chance and stood by
and let him guide me. But since it took all afternoon, I had too many
other things to do. Too bad.
DC> Sounds like my family! Each had their specialties and they each
DC> acceded to the other. My Mom makes the best cakes, pies and
DC> cookies in the world, as well as the best turkey stuffing (and
DC> I know how to do that, too!)
I love good dressing, too. We usually reserve it for holidays, simply to
keep it "special".
AS> We'll keep trying. BTW, Barb said I was the best husband for a young
AS> wife to have, because I like my meat...uh...very well done. And most
DC> Well done beef is red, very, VERY RED!
You and my father would agree. Personally, I like to cremate mine.
DC> I learned a long time ago that food was not only cheaper homemade,
DC> but tastier, too. Besides, it's a very good way of tempting
DC> girls to your domicile, especialy if they like wine with their
DC> food. }:-)
Hmmm. Brian's shown some interest in cooking, perhaps that would be a way
to give him an incentive to learn......even Jamie has shown an
interest in cooking, and helps Barb occasionally with the minor things.
(Eric's too young, as yet, I think, to help.)
AS> Could be. But I know my mother couldn't match his.
DC> My bewst guess is that she burns it!
Not ENOUGH... No, I was the only person in my immediate family (my
grandfather was dead when I was growing up) who had this peculiarity of
taste.
... ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you freak.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORM
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:02:00
EID:80e3 207f4040
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E48E0
AS> reserve it for those who REALLY deserves it. Like Grigor-Scott.
DC> He deserves the kick in the groin!
AS> You sure that he has anything to hurt there?
DC> Only his brain, but you have to have any impact on it, you have
DC> to go after it from the his posterior...
Judging from the last post I saw from him, where he called Marty
Goldberg, of all people, anti-Semitic, I think you're right. He's full of
it.
... "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you." - Inigo Montoya
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