God Damned Fundies!
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 01 Apr 96 12:47:06
EID:a124 208165e0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 808ddea2
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2a09b060
On (24 Mar 96) Fredric Rice wrote to All...
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
Give it up, Fred. You know the truth of the matter...every body does.
You have just wrongly accused me of doing something I didn't do.
a. you cannot punish me.
b. you owe me one apology.
c. if you wish, I can trade yours for Mark's and you guys would
be square.
... Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. (Phi 4:4)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Jon Vandenberg
|Date: 01 Apr 96 12:55:00
EID:436e 208166e0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 3e66a51e
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89510E3A
On (30 Mar 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jon Vandenberg...
DC> Such as he was "booted from a board" that shut down? Let me know
DC> the next time you access that closed board and show that even
DC> george can't access it anymore than you can.
Dan -
Just a note about besser george:
I am still posting from this board in question, even as george could be
had he asserted himself. This phoney 'post from Texas because nobody
gives me an even shake' crap doesn't wash. george can post to this echo
right from the online service he does his Interneting from. He is just
seeking pity (and he is a pitiable guy).
... Bless them which persecute you. (Rom 12:14)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: My Book
|Date: 01 Apr 96 13:13:47
EID:a1b2 208169a0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 793b7d4f
On (31 Mar 96) George Rudzinski wrote to John Brawley...
-=> Quoting John Brawley to George Rudzinski <=-
JB> Hello, George.
JB> Sir, would you be so kind as to _please_ mail me back the book you
JB> borrowed from me, Gentry's _Creation's_Tiny_Mystery_? It's my
JB> annotated copy, and I _need_ it back. It's been almost a year now,
JB> that you've had it to work with, right? _Please_ send it back to me?
JB> John Brawley
JB> PO box 224
JB> Eureka, MO
JB> 63025
JB> Thank you, George.
JB> JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
JB> : john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
JB> : FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
JB> ... "Bother," said Pooh as he started to install Windows.
GR> Well no I won't. I find your tagline offensive to my religious
GR> beliefs. When you remove yourself from this echo voluntarily for 90
GR> days I'll send your book back. I am well aware that Styx is the
GR> moderator, unfortunately for you he doesn't have the book. I do and
GR> those are my conditions. It is either my way, or read about the
GR> unfortunate fire in my house where your book was consumed in the
GR> conflagration.
GR> I understand that I am being an unreasonable prick about this. Look
GR> in the mirror, I've dealt with that unreasonable prick.
GR> Doesn't feel very good does it? Doesn't feel very good being treated
GR> like a child by someone who is acting childish does it?
GR> Stand in line, I said the very same things about you and Dave Horn.
GR> I'm not normally into power trips but I can do it with the best of
GR> them.
GR> Talk to you in June.
GR> george
John -
I can't believe this crap! The only thing of reason is the mention of
an unfortunate fire at his house (would be a boon to the neighborhood,
BTW, I have been there and the property appears to suffer greatly from
neglect and disrepair...in addition to the owner being an unreasonable
prick by reason of birth). As a resident of similar locale as the
aforementioned prick, I would be happy to do anything within the law
to assist in the return of your property. Please let me know.
-=Jim=-
... Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24:4
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 01 Apr 96 22:40:10
EID:ee16 2081b500
MSGID: 3:711/933 31605c83
REPLY: 1:116/19 0423DEFE
Dear Al Schroeder,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together. Witness the
AS> birth of the new Nazi party.
Oh no, you can't place that Jewish invention (via Karl Ritter) on any Christian.
You keep your Nazi party and your crackpot ideas. Besides,
Nazi-ism is over, the next Jewish invention (via Karl Marx, funded by
`The Just Men' and they were in fact the Rothschilds if memory serves
correctly), Communism, is what will be employed.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 01 Apr 96 22:45:52
EID:63b9 2081b5a0
MSGID: 3:711/933 31606811
REPLY: 1:116/19 0423DC10
Dear Al Schroeder,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Many contemporary Jews claim descent from David, and can produce
AS> better pedigrees buttressed by more records than most descendents of
AS> William the Conqueror, despite the fact that William lived two
AS> thousand years later.
This is a deliberate lie, and you should not tell lies. There is not one
Israelite alive today who can trace his family tree with certainty. And
definately none with even a single shred of `buttressing' because the records
were destroyed with the Temple. Next time, be truthful.
AS>> However, historically to be "anti-Semitic" is to discriminate
AS>> between the people who call themselves Jewish.
This too is a lie. This is a NON-Semitic Jewish lie. Also an oxymoron.
AG>> But this is not honest. The vast majority of those who call
AG>> themselves `Jews' are NON-Semitic and ANIT-Semitic.
AS> But you can't prove that.
The Jews certainly can, and so can all the other historians. Read Noam
Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, Arthur Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe, Benjamin
Freedman's Facts are Facts. Encyclopaedia Britannica, and Encyclopaedia
Judaica, Universal Jewish Encyclopaedia.
AS> you might consult some of the Jewish family trees in Burke's peerage,
AS> no slouch at geneaology,
And wholly out of touch with reality when speaking of Jewry. The records
were destroyed over a thousand years before the ancestors of these people
ever heard of Moses, Abraham, etc.., from backslidden Babylonian Jews who
came to proselyte King Bulan.
AS> which nevertheless accept the claims of some of the Jewish families
AS> who have married into the peerage, stretching back to Bible days.
Well, we've covered the fallacy of this statement. You've moved into the
realms of British Israelitism, and that's also fantasy.
AS> silly as asking a modern Englishman whether he is a Norman or a Saxon.
But it matters not whether he is Norman or Saxon or Ethiopian. I hardly
see any relevance in this red herring. God made no Covenant through Moses
with Normans or Saxons or Ethiopians, and none through Abraham with these
races. Nobody but a British Israelite discerner would even suggest He has
so why do you raise even the possibility?
AS> It has been estimated that practically any white person with European
AS> blood is likely descendend from Charlemagne
Once again, what has this to do with God or with natural Israel?
AS> Probably EVERYONE in that area of the world are descendents of
AS> Abraham, and probably both you and I are also, despite Jewish
AS> attempts only to marry Jews.
Don't talk foolishness! Even British Israelitism does not stretch the truth
to this extent.
AS> And the rest of the English-speaking world. Except for a few bigots.
The bigots are the Jews. Besides being bigots, they are mostly hypocrits,
not being what they pretend.
AS> (Gentle smile.) Are you saying there was no violence when the Holy
AS> Land was first given to the Jews?
Not a `gentle smile', a stupid grin. When Israel first took the Land, they
did so at the command of God, and the people they slew were serpent's seed
who are not on the Book of Life. In our lifetime, the Land has been stolen
by NON-Semitic FALSE or self-styled Jews who have no relatiopnship with
the Covenant people and no part in the Covenant. They murdered the Semitic
Jew
and Semitic Arabs who ownbed the land and lived in harmony. They have gone
into the Land in UNbelief and continue their violence against Semitic Jews
and Arabs to this day. Further, they did not take the Land at God's command
and it was not given to them, they stole it.
AS> Unfortunately, Anthony, I don't think you have a direct line to him.
That's because you are not a Christian. You cannot be expected to know.
AS> No matter what you think. John is very explicit about those who hate
AS> their brothers, and other passages make it clear that "brothers"
AS> includes other men.
Not in any Bible you've ever read. Those who are my brothers are they who
are born of my Father. Read Matthew 12:46-49.
AS> Unfortunately, if you will study the OT, you will find that adoption
AS> (which is provided for) entails the adoptee being part of the
AS> bloodline,
And I covered this. Christians are the blood of Jesus Christ by the baptism
of the Holy Ghost. The life is in the blood. You just don't have That. Read
Galatians 3.
AS> in legal fiction if not actual geneaology. Hence the part of Jesus'
AS> geneaology that actually refers to Joseph is not irrelevant, in
AS> Jewish eyes. Jesus was still "heir" to Joseph and all his ancestors,
AS> even though Joseph was not the literal father.
And this is precisely why 94+% of so-called Jews can never be in the Mosaic
Covenant (which is fulfilled at any event) or the Covenant God made with
Abraham's natural seed because that they ain't.
AS> I have indeed, Anthony. And I find nothing but distortion and
AS> bigotry.
That's sad, but it is your own choice.
AS> I found a web page with Brother Branham's teaching. It disturbed me
AS> more than you know, that someone would be regarded a Prophet who
AS> teaches such things contrary to Jesus' teachings.
Don't make a bigger oaf of yourself than you have already.
AS> But still, it was foretold that many would claim to speak in His
AS> name, and Jesus would know them not.
And you are the fulfillment of this Scripture.
AS> And He also said, Father forgive them, for they know not what they
AS> do.
That's right. They were blinded that the Gentile FALSE Jews and plain
honest Gentiles could receive the blessing of the adoption or new birth
through their bigotry and hatred which separated them from God for over
2,000 years. But this does not apply to you. You know what you're doing
but you do it anyway.
AS> With all due respect, Anthony, many have claimed the Spirit...from
AS> nuts like Koresh and Jim Jones,
But what has this to do with Jesus Christ? So have you. That does not make
it so. If you think Jones or Koresh are Christians then what is the reason
you believe what you do? Where is your Scripture? If on the other hand you
are being cute, then to what end? Why raise another red herring?
AS> The Pope claims to be moved by the Holy Spirit. Yet he would disagree
AS> with you on numerous points. How to choose between you?
You cannot. You have made your choice. You can never change it now. All
the Words in the Bible can never have any effect on you. You have the desire
of
your ego ... as I predicted you would.
AS> And what you preach concerning Jews or, those who call themselves
AS> Jews, if you prefer, has been the sort of thing that nearly brought
AS> barbarism to the civilized world on a scale unprecedented, some fifty
AS> years ago in Germany.
Oh no! What I teach about the self-styled or FALSE Jews is what Israelites
teach. And what the Bible teaches.
AS> I can only hope someday you will lift those willful blinders and see
AS> what historians teach us about the Holocaust...read people like John
AS> Tolland, Elie Weisal, and others
Liars. Now let us see how many years it will take the British to cremate
their beef. It will certainly expose the Jewish fables. You just have not
read any history, only fairy stories.
AS> ...and realize it is neither a conspiracy nor a fraud, but honest
AS> truth verified by hundreds of thousands.
There has never been one stitch of evidence, the myth is a technological
impossibility.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:00:12
EID:0847 20813800
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc5db
REPLY: 1:153/792 314771c4
Thursday March 14 1996 19:21, Kelsey Bjarnason mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KB> Try that again, dimwit. If God ain't real, then his little tale of
KB> "I am the One True God" becomes meaningless, which opens the door
KB> to their being umpteen million gods.
That might be what you believe, but it's not what I believe.
KB> However, there still may be umpteen million gods - your belief that
KB> there is only one doesn't immediately render the others non-existent;
KB> it simply says you only believe in one.
Can't render that which does not exist to be non-existent, because they
do not exist to start with.
KM>> You can engage yourself in your thought experiment, I will not
KM>> participate.
KB> Why are you so afraid to *think*, Ken? It really doesn't hurt that
KB> much, especially when you get in practice.
I think quite a bit, and meditate on things as well. But not on things that
I would consider a waste of my time.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:02:13
EID:0a14 20813840
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc606
Friday February 23 1996 02:30, Norbert Sykes mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
KM>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
NS> Oh, so Kenneth Mcabee is the Lord my God now? My, we _do_ put on
NS> airs, don't we?
Norbert,
Joining the ranks of those that must take everything said out of context?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:03:14
EID:608a 20813860
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc652
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 14c5931e
Tuesday March 19 1996 08:14, Steve Rose mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
SR> Steve rolls his eyes, sighs once again and holds the mirror up to reflect
SR> the face of the young Kenny fundy with apparently no memory.
SR> "There...THAT is a fundy. Recognize yourself, now?"
Steve,
Ken rolls his eyes, sighs once again and holds up the dictionary to Steve......
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Ray Talley
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:05:15
EID:065a 208138a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc7a3
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 314f4865
Tuesday March 19 1996 16:42, Ray Talley mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> And why should I believe someone who believes in the mythology that
he
KD>> WAS crucified?
KM>> You believe it to be a mythology, I do not. And to be quite frank
KM>> about it, I don't understand why someone who believes it to be
KM>> mythology would spend so much time here debating it.
RT> How about that . . .
RT> 1) I'm worried that room temperature IQ fundies like you will use our
RT> schools as recuiting ground for your delusions.
Would never use a school as a recruiting ground for delusions, why? Because
I don't have any delusions only truth. As far as preaching the gospel on
school grounds, no I would not do that either. Kids are there to learn something
other than the Bible, and probably would not have the time to listen.
RT> 2) Relgion is the single
RT> greatest cause of suffering on the planet. (Both yesterday and today.)
Good thing I don't believe in religion.
RT> 3)
RT> Willful ignorence pisses me off.
So when are you going to stop being willfully ignorant of the Bible?
KD>>> There is no more reason to believe it is true than the Mabinogion
is
KD>>> true.
KM>>> Again your opinion.
KD>> And a valid one.
In your opinion.
KM>> In your opinion, not mine.
RT> Opinions are like assholes, everybody . . .
RT> You continue to make the extraordinary claim that you have found the
RT> creator of the universe and that IT is your personal buddy. Please
RT> demonstrate why we should believe you.
You get no demonstation, only the gospel.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:10:16
EID:d007 20813940
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fc8d0
REPLY: 1:207/212 7f045a8d
Tuesday March 19 1996 20:21, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Then what's the value of Christianity per se?
KM>> True Christianity? Living forever, and knowing that when the Lord
KM>> comes back for us, that we have done what we could to spread his
KM>> gospel.
KD> Yet you and others are claiming that it is also beneficial to a society
KD> to be Christian as well as individuals.
Yes, but I probably have a different meaning of a Christian than you.
KM>> No, it's not a jail, we are not allowed back into Eden, that was the
KM>> punishment, not the world. I think on this one, we will just have to
KM>> agree that we disagree.
KD> Since no other option was given, this must be our prison.
So if we were allowed in the garden of Eden, this planet, which we still
have to live on, would still be our prison would it not? (I still don't
think it's our prison) BTW there is another option.
KM>> No, Christians do not cause rape. If I say that a women doesn't belong
KM>> as a pastor, tell me how does that cause someone to rape a woman?
KD> Easily. It develops the feeling that women are less than men, and thus
KD> to be used by men. Men who see women out of place start getting angry
KD> and wanting to put them back in their places.
Start getting angry? I don't believe that women should be pastors, so I
automatically get angry about it? I'de like to see your source for this
belief.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [1]
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:15:17
EID:9128 208139e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcc03
REPLY: 1:207/212 d19353e6
Tuesday March 19 1996 20:23, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Pascal's Wager is that since there are only 2 choices, God [i.e. the
KD>> God of the Bible] and no god, you might as well believe in God so you
KD>> get any advantages of that. Since there are any number of
KD>> OTHER possibilities, that is a false dichotomy.
KM>> But that's your opinion isn't it?
KD> Actually? It's not opinion, it's fact. Anything which lists only 2
KD> options when there are other logical options is a false dichotomy.
There is only two options, period, fancy words won't change that fact.
KD> For example: an unwillingly pregnant woman saying "raise the baby/have
KD> an abortion" as her only options is creating a false dichotomy, right?
KD> Because there is at LEAST one other option.
Depends on the person.
KM>> I have to wonder how many true Christians you've met. Not in the
KM>> influence on the people? I've seen it, maybe just a small amount, but
KM>> I have seen it.
KD> All I see are murders and the violation of my rights by Christians.
What classifies those people as Christians?
KM>> By believing in God, I can't believe that there are any other options,
KM>> can't you see that? To me there is only God, no others, to believe
KM>> otherwise would be against my own beliefs.
KD> True. You believe in God. But there are a plethora of other LOGICAL
KD> alternatives.
Your opinion, not mine.
KD>> Yet consider what a Muslim would learn about you from HIS holy book.
KM>> I've had a long conversation with a Muslim about God, the Koran and
KM>> the Bible, he told me that he believed in the Koran and the Bible,
he
KM>> got real confused about that when I showed him how they differed.
KD> Exactly.
And when he walked away he knew that Jesus Christ did die for his sins,
and that he was the Son of God, not just a prophet.
KD>> Again, you're relying on a false dichotomy.
KM>> Again, that's your believe and your opinion, not mine.
KD> A false dichotomy is proven by the existence of more than 2 options
when
KD> the other person is claiming only 2.
There are no other options.
KD>> Considering things you don't believe is mind sharpening. One of the
KD>> reasons I love reading and writing Science Fiction so much. Science
KD>> fiction writers don't write what they think will happen, they take
KD>> WHAT IF's.
KM>> Would it surprise to know that I love science fiction?
KD> A little. The fact that you enjoy it but can't open your mind just a
bit
KD> and see that your statement the only alternative to God is NO GOD is
a
KD> false dichotomy makes me wonder.
As a Christian, I cannot believe that there are any other options.
KD>> How many alternatives were there to my being at that school?
KD> Anser the question.
That's what I thought.
KD>> That's your problem. Thought experiments are CRUCIAL to developing
KD>> thinking skills. Included in thought experiments is accepting the
KD>> possibility of something you vehemently disagree with.
KM>> Accept something that I disagree with? Why would I want to do that?
KD> Accept the logical possibility.
Logical possibility, with all I have been through and experience, if the
God in the Bible does not exist, there is no God at all.
KD> You disagree with people having homosexual sex, correct?
And many other things as well.
KD> Yet you have to
KD> admit it is logically occurring, probably as you read this.
Logically occurring? I don't see the logic of it, it's plan fact, it does
occur? Logically? No, I don't see the logic of it, but then, I don't have
any homosexual tendencies, don't see the logic of two men or women having
sex. Logically looking at how man and woman are made, they should be having
sex with the opposite sex, not the same sex.
KD> I disagree
KD> with rape, murder, and theft, yet I sadly admit they are VERY probably
KD> occurring as I write this.
KD> There's a difference between stating that something is true, and
KD> accepting it as a logical alternative to what one does believe. You
seem
KD> to accept the logical alternative of NO GOD, though you don't believe
KD> that. What I'm trying to tell you is that there are many OTHER
KD> alternatives other than CHRISTIAN GOD/NO GOD.
And that is still your opinion, not mine, and never will be. Either God
exist, there is none at all. Period, end of line.
KD> Not one of them may be
KD> true, but by the information I have, they're no less possible than your
KD> Christian god.
Your opinion, your thoughts not mine. Just because you see it as the logical
option does not mean that everyone must think that way.
KM>> conservinazi?
KD> Christian right.
Never heard of it.
KD> Anti homosexual,
obviously.
KD> anti woman's rights,
No, I am not, I believe in the original intent of it.
KD> anti first
KD> amendment,
hardly
KD> anti anybody but white upper middle class and upper class
KD> males.
Wrong again.
KD> Pro fetus only because it gives them a handle to control women.
Pro fetus? You mean, anti abortion?
KD> Pro religion but only THEIR religion.
I hate religion, figure that statement out.
KM> KM>>> You want to have verification that God exist? But you refuse
to
KM> KM>>> believe by faith. Without faith you cannot verify that he exist.
KM>> It KM>> takes faith, not physical evidence to believe in God.
KD>> Faith is belief WITHOUT verification.
KM>> Now faith is the substance of things hope for, the evidence of things
KM>> not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
KD> This is something my supposedly god given mind is NOT capable of. I
was
KD> given a brain that requires evidence, thank you.
And the evidence that you need has been provided, however, you refuse to
accept the scriptures as the evidence.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [2]
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:28:18
EID:9128 20813b80
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcc71
REPLY: 1:207/212 7ffe86e4
Tuesday March 19 1996 20:35, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Will you admit that those involved with your so called Messiah could
KD>> have been intentionally lying?
KM>> No reason to admit that which I do not believe is true now is there?
KD> Human beings lie, do you admit that?
No doubt about it.
KD>> Why bother making something a sin if there aren't any?
KM>> It's a sin to think that there is another god.
KD> It's a sin to think?
Nope.
KM>> You do not think that God could inspire those? Besides, I do not
KM>> believe that every Bible is infallible, there are many that I would
KM>> not be caught dead reading.
KD> Oh are you another King James nut?
How'de you guess?
KD>> Circular. I only believe things that evidence has led me to believe
KD>> could be true.
KM>> You call it circular, I call it scriptural. Luke 16:31
KD> Using scripture to attempt to justify scripture is circular.
That's your problem, not mine.
KD>> It doesn't take setting your faith aside to realize that Pascal's
KD>> Wager is a false dichotomy IN LOGIC. You're willing to consider
KD>> the possibility of NO god, why not all the other possibilities?
KM>> From my stand point there is no other possibility.
KD> Huh?
Either the God of the Bible that I read exists, or there is no God at all.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Kenneth the neo-atheist
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:30:19
EID:9a0e 20813bc0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcd7a
Monday March 18 1996 16:05, DAVID RICE mumbled to KENNETH MCABEE:
DR> Satan is not "also known as" Lucifer. Satan is a totally
DR> different god than Lucifer, with his own aspects and
DR> attributes (to use the technical terms).
Only one God. And it's not Satan/Lucifer.
KM>> that was his problem, he thought he was.
DR> Funny how you give your gods thoughts.
I don't have any "gods".
KM>> I don't believe in hundreds of thousands of other gods,
KM>> because the don't exist.
DR> In other words, you lack belief in them. Ergo, you're atheist.
Nope, can't be an atheist because I believe in God.
KM>> God in the Bible, the one that sent his Son[sic] to die
KM>> on a cross for all our sins, does exist and always has.
DR> Since there exists no more evidence for that freaky claim as
DR> there is evidence that god's sons Hercules and Perseus (among
DR> other sons of god) exists.
DR> Hince my question: you are an atheist, and yet to still
DR> cling to the Christian gods. How is it you deny so many of
DR> the gods, and not deny the other gods?
There are no other gods to deny, the only God that exist is the one that
sent his Son to die on the cross.
KM>> No pride, not rebellion, just following the truth of the
KM>> Bible, there is only One[sic] True[sic] God[sic],
DR> I.e. you're a neo-atheist. You lack belief in the hundreds of
DR> thousands of gods that exist.
Sorry but the dictionary disagrees with you.
KM>> and there has only been One[sic], not two, not three, not
KM>> a few, only One[sic].
DR> In actual FACT, there are so many gods, one would be hard
DR> pressed to list them all.
There are no other gods.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:35:20
EID:ae68 20813c60
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fce09
Thursday March 21 1996 15:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
KM>> The average so called Christian will kill someone and think that he's
KM>> lost his salvation because of it. No one says that what they did was
KM>> right, only that God will forgive them for it. Someone conscience will
KM>> get to them whether they claim to be a Christian or not. If they are
a
KM>> Christian and killing someone does not bother them, then they would
KM>> not have been bothered by even if they were not a Christian. The
KM>> average true Christian, would be bothered by it more, because not only
KM>> have they broken man's law, and God's law, but there are countless
KM>> others that will end up in hell because they destroyed thier witness
KM>> of Christ to others.
BJ> Same difference. The fact still remains that the Christian mythos has
left
BJ> a loophole when it comes to sin. And more Christians than not justify
BJ> their actions by using this loophole. If there were no such thing as
BJ> forgiveness, and you had to answer for your every action, would your
BJ> behavior change?
Probably not, we are creatures of habit...
BJ>>> Check out a song by Anthrax called "Room for One More"...it deals
BJ>>> with this very subject...
KM>> Who is Anthrax?
BJ> Heavy metal group that was real big in the late 80's...still around,
but
BJ> not as popular as they used to be. If you're interested in hearing the
BJ> song, it can be found on the album "Sound of White Noise"
NO thank you, I have always hated heavy metal. I don't consider it music,
just noise.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: HELLO!
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:37:21
EID:bdf2 20813ca0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fce94
Thursday March 21 1996 15:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
BJ>>> How do you explain the other gods mentioned in that Bible of yours?
KM>> Ok, give me a passage.
BJ> Thou shalt not have any other gods before me" is the first one that
comes
BJ> to mind, although I know there are others...
KM>>>> I have seen Muslim turn from the Koran and start believing in the
KM>>>> Bible. To me, they are believing in a false religion, God is the
KM>>>> ONLY option, which makes him the logical one as well.
BJ>>> The only option for you, or the only option for everyone?
KM>> YES!
BJ> You didn't answer the question. Please do so.
I already gave my answer.
KM>>>> It's not wrong, and I will not entertain the thought.
BJ>>> Not surprising. You fundies have a habit of simplistic, black and
BJ>>> white thinking. Part of being truly wise is being smart enough not
to
BJ>>> accept anything without question. Nothing is absolute, there are no
BJ>>> givens in life. Turning a blind ear to what you don't want to hear
BJ>>> doesn't change the fact that perhaps someone other than you may be
BJ>>> right.
KM>> There you go, assuming that I have never questioned it.
BJ> If you have indeed questioned it, then why do you still follow the mythos
BJ> regardless of all the contradictions and inconsistencies?
I don't see all the ctradictions and inconsistencies that you do. I find
them to be misunderstandings or misinterpertations. I have come to grips
with my doubts, and one thing that I do not doubt is that God exist.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:39:22
EID:1449 20813ce0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcf74
Thursday March 21 1996 15:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
SM>>>>>>> For you to tempt it, it would have to exist first.
KM>>>>>> He does.
BJ>>>>> I've been gone almost a year, and I'm willing to wager you still
BJ>>>>> haven't produced one shred of evidence to show this...
KM>>>> Evidence
BJ>>> >> to
KM>> But they did matter in the point that I was trying to make.
BJ> Not really, when you come right down to it. You were using simplistic
BJ> thinking to answer a difficult question.
And if that is the way I want to answer it, that is my right.
BJ>>> My point is simple. You can't use circular logic to show that
BJ>>> something exists. (i.e. How do you know God exists? Cause the bible
BJ>>> says so...How
BJ> do
BJ>>> you know the Bible exists? Because God says so...) That, m'dear, does
BJ>>> not work in a rational sense. What we are speaking of is evidence
BJ>>> outside the Bible...
KM>> I know the Bible exist because it is sitting in front of me. I know
KM>> God exist because the Bible says so. According to you, that's not
KM>> circular.
BJ> To use that logic would be the same as saying the easter bunny exists
BJ> because I have a stuffed animal of hir.
Watch it, your starting to agree with me.
BJ>>>>> Yeppers. Still beating your son, Ken?
KM>>>> Never claimed that I did beat my son.
BJ>>> I remember getting into numerous arguments with you on this subject.
BJ>>> Are you now a liar in addition to a child abuser? (To all others
BJ>>> reading
BJ> this:
BJ>>> Did any of you happen to archive the post where Ken was speaking of
BJ>>> beating his son? Some of you older 'Smokers will remember this
BJ>>> vividly)
KM>> Are you sure it was me, and not Jerry Wilcox?
BJ> You're right...sorry about that...I've been gone too long and I've made
BJ> the mistake of mixing two fundies up. You all pretty much spout the
same
BJ> BS anyway.
Some of it's the same that true, but the conversations that he got into
and the ones that I engage in, are quite different.
BJ>>>>> Produce him, and we will.
KM>>>> Stick around you'll see him eventually.
BJ>>> Sorry, Ken...I have better things to do with my time then wait around
BJ>>> for your imaginary playfriend to appear.
KM>> You will met him one day, that you can count on.
BJ> Read above. Same thing applies.
Read above. Same thing applies.
KM>>>>>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us,
KM>>>>>> however anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked
him
KM>>>>>> for a sign, he refused, he would not give them the sign that they
KM>>>>>> requested directly of him. We know Christ by the things that he
KM>>>>>> did, the signs
BJ>>>>> Perhaps because he was blowing smoke?
KM>>>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
KM>>>> anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a
KM>>>> sign, he refused, he would not give them the sign that they
KM>>>> requested directly of him. We know Christ by the things that he did,
KM>>>> the signs
BJ>>>
BJ>>> Stop doin' the 'ole fundie shuffle...As some of the vets are so fond
BJ>>> of saying, I'll pour...Unless you are full of shit and a hypocrite
to
BJ>>> boot, you'd better start chugging that Draino. Your God commands it
BJ>>> as a sign
BJ> of
BJ>>> faith...
to be continued....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:43:23
EID:1449 20813d60
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fcfda
Thursday March 21 1996 15:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
KM>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
BJ>
BJ> Hmm...nothing left to say, Ken? Argumentum ad nauseum won't win you
this
BJ> one. As I said before, either chug the Draino or shut the fuck up.
This says everthing that I need to say, and yes, you get the pleasure of
deleting it again.
Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however anytime
one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign, he refused,
he would not give them the sign that they requested directly of him. We
know
Christ by the things that he did, the signs were those miracles that he
performed for the faithful, not for the unfaithful. Since a Christian is
someone who is suppose to be following in the footsteps of Christ, we are
suppose to do those things that he told us to do, and to follow his examples
of what to do and when to do it. His example of what to do when the
unfaithful ask for a sign such as drinking poison is very clear. He would
not give it, therefore, following his example, we will not give it. How
can
you tell a Christian then? By the things that they do, not the things that
you demand of them to do. Matthew 4:7 "Jesus said unto him, it is written
again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." That's pretty clear, we are
not
to tempt the Lord, to mix a drink of poison just to drink it, to prove that
we
have faith, would be tempting God. It would be us, the Christian, saying
to
God, go ahead protect us like you said you would, that would be us seeking
a
sign from God, just as you do. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I
will
not drink you mixture, but not because of what you claim, that I do not
have
faith, but because I do have faith, and I do believe in the Word of God,
not
just one or two verses, but all of the Word of God. And that includes the
part
that says "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (In case
you
can't remember thats in Luke 16:31) So according to the Bible, since you
refuse
to have faith to start with, you would not believe even if I drank it, died,
and came back to life! No, I will not drink for you, you will not tempt
me
enough to make me tempt my God. Your disclaiming my faith, will not make
me
unfaithful, it does not change the fact that if when I die, I will spend
eternity with Lord forever, and when those that do not have faith in him
before they die, die, that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire,
where the beast and false prophet will be.......
Maybe one of these days you'll read it and learn something.
Kenneth Mcabee
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:45:24
EID:1d54 20813da0
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fd0d6
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3153f208
Friday March 22 1996 14:42, Sue Armstrong mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
SA> A lone voice in the wilderness, Kenneth mournfully howled out
SA> "Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees"
FR>> "In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read
FR>> through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in
FR>> His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the
FR>> brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against
FR>> the Jewish poison.
KM>> The scourge was not seized, it was made. He did not drive the men out
KM>> of the temple with it, but rather the animals.
SA> So Jesus hated animals? Definitely NOT my kind of guy.
Nope, he hated them selling those animals in his temple, so he drove the
animals out of it.
SA> Gee, the Shaolin kwoon where I took martial arts welcomed animals.
SA> One student used to bring his dog occasionally, and no one chased
SA> the dog out with big whips. In fact, the instructor lightly
SA> chastised another student for suggesting it was the dog that was
SA> "out of place" when we were asked to figure out what was wrong
SA> in the room. (Turned out to be that a training sword was replaced
SA> upside down.)
And the Shaolin kwoon is not the house of God.
SA> I've noticed that as far as Christianity goes, however, even
SA> during the "blessing of the animals" that some churches run each
SA> year, the animals are kept OUTside, and aren't allowed within the
SA> church itself.
Where's the scripture basis for the "blessing of the animals"?
Kenneth Mcabee
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:49:25
EID:d05e 20813e20
MSGID: 1:271/460 315fd142
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3151c1eb
Thursday March 21 1996 20:52, David Worrell mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>>> that no matter what you are told, you will always consider what
KM>>>> someone says that has faith, a lie, no matter what you are told.
DW>>> See what I mean? You couldn't be more wrong. Run back into your
DW>>> hole and throw some babble verses at me now, li'l fundy.
KM>> Really David? You've yet to prove it any differently.
DW> You've told me that you were married and have at least one child, if
I
DW> remember correctly. I did not consider that to be a lie. By your statement
DW> above, this must mean that you have no faith. If you had faith, then
I
DW> would have considered your statement a lie, right?
DW> Do you enjoy showing your stupidity to the world, Ken?
David,
Do you enjoy deleting stuff from messages just to make people look stupid
David?
Kenneth Mcabee
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..
|Date: 01 Apr 96 21:33:00
EID:8bac 2081ac20
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00183a44
Elliott,
EF>In a message dated 03-21-96 Larry Bevard wrote to Jim Germiquet:
EF>
EF>> As far as the Crusades
EF>> goes, the main purpose of most of them was not religious, but were
for
EF>> money and power.
EF>
EF>
EF>Were the children of the Childrens Crusade in it for the money and power
EF>too?
I already said that the children's Crusade was different. But, it
still had as a basis the power of the Church behind the consept.
Admidantly, it was based on religious beliefs, but also look at the
difference. The Children were sent unarmed, as a pure (so thought the
Pope) force to show the power of God. It didn't work.
Peace,
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 01 Apr 96 21:33:00
EID:17ff 2081ac20
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00183a5b
Anthony,
AG>Dear Brother Larry Bevard,
AG>
AG>Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks for the greeting.
AG>LB> Besides that, both the books of Wisdom and Ecclus. are Not Biblical
AG>LB> books. They are included in the Catholic bible but even the catholic
AG>LB> Church realizes that they are not on the same plane as the rest of
AG>LB> the books of the OT.
AG>
AG>There are a number of additional books in the Roman Catholic versions
of the
AG>Bible. Some of them have make absolutely absurd claims contrary to
the
AG>Bible.
I have read the additional books in the RC version, and some of them
are contrary to what is else where recorded, but others show the
thoughts and beliefs of the Jewish people as the time for Christ return
grew near. But, for me, what we have in our present bible is more than
enough for me.
AG>LB> In the New Testement, Adam bears the brunt of the blame for bringing
AG>LB> Sin and Death into the world.
AG>
AG>No Brother, that is a misunderstanding. What Adam did was to `save'
his
AG>wife
AG>by joining her across the time line and the Life line when she should
have
AG>been
AG>burnt as says God's Word which is for ever settled in heaven. In
AG>this way death came upon mankind and as man was the god of this world
upon
AG>all creation because all were under Adam when he forfeited his dominion
to
AG>Satan. You have read and misunderstood Romans 5:17.
AG>
AG>Adam could not sin. He was the son of God and no man born of God can
commit
AG>sin
AG>(I John 3:12; 5:18).
I have read your discussion of this before, and I feel that it is
taking the genealogy as recorded in Luke 3, too literally. But, I also
know that I would be hard pressed to change your mind on this, so I will
back off of the discussion.
AG>LB> Eve's sin was that she allowed herself to be decieved.
AG>
AG>`Sin' is unbelief in the revealed Word of God (period). It is the opposite
AG>of
AG>faith. The elected (or sons and daughters of God) cannot be deceived
on the
AG>Word of God. Eve was not the spoken Word of God but a byproduct of Adam
who
AG>was. (Can you see the type of Christ and His Bride?) Eve was not God's
AG>original creation, but a by-product of Adam, made up of his flesh and
bone.
AG>The true Church is a byproduct of Christ, made up of the Holy Spirit,
taken
AG>from His side after He fell asleep on Calvary as Adam fell asleep in
Eden.
Yes, I can see your point on this.
AG>Eve was deceived. She was the only way Satan could inject himself into
the
AG>human race.
Wasn't that what I said?
AG>Kind regards, and God bless ...
He already has and I Trust that He will continue to bless me.
Anthony, in all of the messages I have read from you, I know you are
firm in the Lord and love Him. Just because we don't agree on the finer
points of the bible, I know we both agree on the more important points,
the ones that make us who we are, Children of the One God, and brothers
to each other and to Jesus.
May the peace and joy that only comes from our Father above keep you
and bless you always.
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 01 Apr 96 21:33:00
EID:42db 2081ac20
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00183a72
Hi Elliott,
EF>RH> And why was death the result? Did not God decide that? Worse, did
not
EF>RH> God know in advance that Eve would decide to eat?
EF>
EF>AS> Yes. But of course, free will means nothing if you
EF>AS> have nothing to turn TO. You don't have free will in a
EF>AS> narrow hall with one door.
EF>
EF>But it isn't an either/or proposition. For instance if your god knows
the
EF>future he knows, prior to his creation of each human, whether that person
EF>will _FREELY_ choose to obey or not. It would in no way deny free will
for
EF>God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would choose sin.
He
EF>simply creates only those people who he knows will _freely_ choose the
EF>religiously correct path.
How true, and I would have wished that he did. But, He knew that
"all (would) fall short of the Glory of God." So, "if all have sinned",
then His choice was to create of to not create. We do see that He
decided that He made a mistake when he brought the flood to distroy
everything, but then He saw that Noah was rightous and saved him and his
family. How do we know that God knew that all would sin? The Bible
states that before God even created us, He had it planned to send the
Redeemer, Jesus, His only Son, to bring us all back to Him. We can see
in a few cases in the Old Testement that there was people that obeyed
God and found favor with Him, but generally, the people failed to obey
God's commands and suffered death. But, this showed that it was
possible to choose right as opposed to the wrong that the reason of the
world followed.
EF>AS> As for
EF>AS> whether God knew beforehand, I'm not sure. Does God
EF>AS> only see one future,
EF>AS> narrowly defined, or does He see several possible
EF>AS> futures, depending on
EF>AS> our choices?
EF>
EF>If he sees "several possible futures" then obviously he doesn't know
which
EF>will transpire and thus he is not omniscient. If he _does_ know which
will
EF>occur then the future must be set in stone. There is no way around this.
Let's say He does see one future only. Does that make the future
set is stone? Or is it possible that God can change the future of
people by coming into their lives and thus change the future. He's done
this in the case of Abram, Moses, David, Saul and others in the Bible as
well as many others in all walks of life. We tend to think linearly
about time, but God is outside of time, and think as all time as now.
EF>RH> And why cannot we repent AFTER death, when we have the information
we
EF>RH> needed to make a better choice?
It would be nice wouldn't it.
EF>AS> And do what?
EF>AS> If Hitler repents after death, does that help those
EF>AS> he killed in life?
EF>
EF>How would it help them if Hitler repented 5 minutes before death? Yet
the
EF>way I understand it, your god _would_ accept Hitler's sincere contrition
EF>at that point without regard to helping "those he killed in life".
EF>
EF>AS> Can he do any good
EF>AS> works that will amend what happened?
EF>
EF>Likewise, could he do sufficient good works 5 minutes before death?
Let's take another example, that of Jeffery Dolmer. He was Baptised
into the Lord just months before he was killed in prison. He knew that
he could never do enough to make up for all of the men and boys that he
had killed and ate, he knew that even his death would not repay all of
the suffering that he caused, but, Thank God, even his sins were
forgiven by God, and I rest assured that he is in heaven now. You see,
someone already died for all of our sins, no matter what they are or
even what they will be. God accepted the death of Jesus as full payment
for our sins, because we cannot do enough to earn our way to Heaven.
So, yes if Hitler had repented and followed the Lord's command to be
baptised, even 5 min. before his death, he would have been fully
covered, his sins would not be held against him. Does that mean that
Jeffery or Hitler then would not have to pay for their sins. No, they
still would have to make reparparation for their sins. It is like if I
stoled your car, kill your wife and then found Jesus, I still would be
accountable to pay for what I had done to hurt you, but according to
God, He would say; "What Sin?"
A lot to think about, isn't it?
In His peace and Love,
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: 20 MOST DISGUSTING CA
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:752d 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org dff7d74c
JB>-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Sean Mccullough <=-
JB> SM> 20- Porn directors who dress up children to look like lawyers.
JB> BJ> 21- Television evangelists
JB>22- Television evangelists who are also lawyers.
23-Television evangelists who dress up porn directors to look like
children.
---
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: False Christians
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:db1a 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7bd34bd5
SM> > Why is the Christian Coalition supporting Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan?
SM>Because they have three remaining living neurons between them??
SM> > Bogus Bob is a 33rd. degree Mason,
SM>There are only three degrees in Masonry.
Sean, there are 32 degrees in Masonry. A third degree Mason is a
'Master Mason'. There are two Masonic organizations this Master Mason
is now eligible to join, Scottish Rite and York Rite. After they have
completed the 28 degrees on one of those two paths they are eligible to
take the 32nd degree and join the Shriners.
You do run across assorted mention of 33+ degrees, usually such rumors
also have secret jewish groups ruling the world economy and UFO aliens
infiltrating the CIA.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:2daf 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 683e3361
DC>-> On 03-12-96 18:47, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> GM> THE KING COULD
DC> DC>But the Queen told him to go beat off instead.
DC> KW> 'Twas the night of the the King's Castration, and the King was giving
DC> KW> a ball. His Left one.
DC>
DC>BTW, do you think that Mooth ever reads any of the responses to
DC>him? My guess is that he's an automoron...
If he did, I doubt that he read more than the first few to hit his
mailbox.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * -I am not young enough to know everything-
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:f86c 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org df5b9918
DC>-> On 03-12-96 18:47, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> KW> I am not either purple, Styx. I am a proud pale blue Scottish
DC> DC> JB> With tartan overlay?
DC> DC>Never thought that she was tan, but I was unsure about the tart part..
DC> KW> :P
DC>Thank you for that snappy "come back". (At least I didn't
DC>comdemn you to hell with Michael Hardy as your compatriot!)
DC>After all, I do have a sense of humor... ;)
Ugh! What have I ever done to deserve that? If you are going to
condemn me to hell, at least pick someone interesting to talk to as my
compatriot. However, I can see the humorous possibilities of you
condemned for all time, chained between Jim Staal and Assmotron. ;) No,
best not. That much senseless babbling would cause a normal person to
retreat into shock in no time (on the other hand, are you exactly
normal?).
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * .. Hmph! Seriousness! Sobriety! A Jedi craves these not!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [1/2] Re: Tithe 01/
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:0275 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6a9fc4e2
JG> >>> Part 1 of 2...
JG>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> JG> KW> Elliott, if you had taken the time and trouble to have read
(and
JG> JG> KW> quoted) that passage in context it would have been obvious even
to yo
JG> JG> KW> that the subject under discussion was charities (such as those
pushed
JG> JG> KW> by TV evangelists) that were designed mostly to line the pockets
of t
JG> JG>And of course you have the documents to back up the claim that monies
JG> JG>specifically donated for starving children were going to choir robes
JG> JG>and such ?
JG> KW> Jim, please go back and reread the above exchange. Then please
point
JG> KW> out just where I stated that they moneys were specifically donated
for
JG> KW> starving children. I suppose you are yet another xtian that
JG> KW> has a great deal of trouble understanding what is before your eyes.
JG> KW> This is somewhat amusing considering your dependence on the written
JG> KW> word for the existence of your god.
JG>Okay, with the reference to charities, I thought you were accusing the
JG>church of using the funds meant for charities, for nice robes.
JG>I am glad you are not doing that. You are upset that there are hungry
JG>people while the church has nice robes.
Jim, you do seem to be the poster child for lack of reading
comprehension. The subject was (take this slowly, and sound out the
words) TV evangelists who scam money to line their own pockets. You
know, the air conditioned dog house for jesus set.
JG>You know Jesus had the same thing. Mary was pouring expensive perfume
JG>on the feet and hair of Jesus because he had freed her from the bondage
JG>of sin and unhappiness, etc etc. She was honoring him and god.
JG>Judas berated her saying, that perfume could have been sold and the
JG>money used to feed the poor.
JG>Jesus said, "There will always be poor people, What Mary is doing, is
JG>preparing me for burial. WHat she is doing will be told throughout the
world
JG>in memory of her."
So it is far better to scent a corpse than to feed a child? Interesting
morality there.
JG>The point is that yes we have hungry people. SHould we then sell all
the
JG>artifacts in our museums, and open them up as hostels ? Should we take
all
JG>the money from scientific groups trying to find dinosaur bones for
JG>our museums, and use it to feed hungry people ? Should we as people,
or
JG>institutions or churches, give away all our money to the poor and become
JG>poor ourselves, and unable to help anyone else ?
Jimmy, boy, you can't have it both ways. No matter how hard you try to.
JG>People who give money to their church, are certainly helping
JG>the poor that those churches support. But that money also pays the rent
JG>for that church. It pays to keep it clean. It pays to make it look
JG>beautiful. How much nicer is it to be in a church with a choir dressed
in
JG>blue robes instead of ragged shirts and blue jeans. And these people
JG>pay for this priviledge.
JG>Just as you might pay to have a nice house or apartment to live in,
JG>instead of a rundown ramshackle shack. SHould you sell your nice house
JG>or move to a cheaper apartment so that you can give all that extra
JG>money to the poor ? No... you take a portion of your money, and you
JG>use it to help those less fortunate, you do not become poor yourself
JG>to do so.
JG>The same with churches. They should strive to set an example of what
JG>serving god can provide for us. Everyone giving a portion to help
JG>others. The more you are given and have, the more you can give others.
JG>Now look at this 10% idea.
JG>Churches ask for or suggest a 10% tithe.
JG>If a small church collects 100 dollars , it gives 10 dollars to help
the
JG>poor, 40 dollars to pay the rent. 30 dollars to pay the church workers
JG>, it then has 20 dollars
JG>left for saving and making the church a better place.
JG>They have given their 10% to help others.
JG>Now if a church collects 100 MILLION dollars, They give 10 MILLION
JG>to the needy, they pay 20 MILLION dollars for rent, 10 MILLION for
JG>church workers, and still have 60 MILLION left for other things.
JG>Maybe they give another 10 million for needy people. Maybe they buy
JG>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JG>some more nice robes or a new organ for their church members who
JG>deserve it because they have provided the 20 million dollars for
JG>the needy.
JG>Do you see what I mean. Just because you have millions of dollars and
JG>are rich and fortunate, does not mean you are forsaking your duty
JG>to help those less fortunate.
JG>In fact you may be giving TWICE the required or suggested amount to
JG>help others, and still have much for yourself.
(Continued to next message)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [1/2] Re: Tithe 02/
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:f275 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ec5b179b
(Continued from previous message)
(Continued to next message)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!-LeoX
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [2/2] Re: Tithe 01/
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:fd91 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 70f2e12a
JG> >>> Part 2 of 2...
JG> KW> Ask Jesus. It seems to me that he had some definite opinions on
the
JG> KW> subject. If you wish to worship in a whited sepulchre, and wear
both
JG> KW> of your coats at once, it's between you and him.
JG>Jesus was Jesus. He did what was God's purpose for him. No one else is
JG>Jesus. Some people may choose to do the same kind of missionary work,
JG>with just the clothes on their back and nothing else. Others may choose
JG>to be more like Solomon who was a great man of god and yet one of the
JG>most wealthiest men that ever lived. And some may be anywhere inbetween.
JG>Wealth is not a judge of how godly you are, with the poorest person
JG>being the most righteous and the wealthiest person being the biggest
JG>sinner.
JG> JG>People who take on the high degree of responsibility of handling
large
JG> JG>organizations should be paid accoordingly whether they are secular
or
JG> JG>religious organizations.
JG> JG>Should a christian bricklayer not get paid as much as a non christian
JG> JG>bricklayer ?
JG> KW> My, my, my, I have to admire your agility. How you've managed to
JG> KW> stretch from my comments about the vanity of worshipping in rich
fancy
JG> KW> churches when people are going hungry to your self righteous
JG> KW> justifications concerning high salaried 'charity' officers and brick
JG> KW> bats about bricklayers is truly amazing. Jim, you really need to
make
JG> KW> up your mind over your role in here: are you going to play Church
Lady
JG> KW> or Emily Lattella? Your attempts to do both are amusing, but only
JG> KW> point up your poor reading skills.
JG>It seems to me that you are crying, that because the churches are rich,
JG>they are godless or evil. All my replying here has been to point out
JG>that I disagree with such a general idea as and I will now QUOTE one
JG>simple example of what I am hearing you say above " vanity of worshipping
JG>in rich fancy churches when people are going hungry" ....vanity ???
JG>You throw around judgements as if you were god with the authority to
JG>decide who is vain and worthy of hellfire. Just because a person is
JG>wealthy or worships in a fancy church, does not mean they are vain. They
JG>might give a bigger percentage of their money to help the poor than you
do.
JG>Maybe they give 25% of their 100 million dollars. 25 Million dollars,
while
JG>you may give 0% of your 10 thousand dollars. But of course they would
be
JG>big sinners because they worship in a big fancy church and you would
be
JG>a saint because you didnt have as much money.
Finished screaming and stamping? Finished howling that you are being
judged as you have judged? As for being a god, which one did you have
in mind? Liken me to that child murdering rapist of an over blown
bully described in the xtian Bible, and you will manage to offend me.
As for my use of the term vanity, I would suggest that you consult a
dictionary. Saint, by the way, isn't something that I would describe
myself as. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I was in any way
associated with the protestant ones, and majority of the older catholic
saints are disguised old Gods and Goddesses (research just who St Afra
really was if you want a good laugh).
JG>You do not even know these people that you would summarily cast into
JG>the fires of hell, based on the fancy church they happen to worrship
JG>God in.
You right about that. All I can use to judge them on is their actions,
and the fruits of their labor. While there are people who are good
people and who also happen to call themselves by the title 'Christian',
in my personal experience, they do seem to be few and far in between.
JG> KW> As I said above, that is between them and their Corn King. If their
JG> KW> vanity is what they value, let them indulge it. Just don't expect
me
JG> KW> to not notice the inherent hypocrisy in their statements.
JG>Hypocrisy ? Judge not, lest ye be judged. In the same way that you judge
JG>others, you will be judged.
JG>First take the log out of your own eye, then you will be able to see,
to
JG>take the speck out of your brothers.
JG>Not intended to be directed to you, because I really do not know you
JG>personally, but something to think about, based on some of the feelings
JG>I have experienced reading your comments.
I think that you are very typically xtian. Perhaps you are just
phrasing yourself somewhat clumsily, but you sound that you are saying
that no one dare judge a christian, no matter what they do and to who.
I don't care if you had intended your comments personally, because I
simply consider the source, and wonder what your own log is.
JG>... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
JG>___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
JG>--- GEcho 1.00
JG> * Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07Demos*Music*Art*Coding (1:2424/1004)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ... Go grow some pubic hair. Ryan Shaw
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [2/2] Re: Tithe 02/
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:0d91 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 97e262d6
(Continued from previous message)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 01 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:9009 20819640
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4a7ecba9
JG> DC> So far, you have impressed nobody .
JG>I don't really care. I come here to exchange ideas, not to impress anyone.
JG>If I wanted to impress someone, I would side with one side. Instead I
JG>usually end up being in everyones bad books. It doesn't really bother
me,
JG>I just like to add my own personal opinions to everyone elses. But regardless
JG>somehow I hardly think you have the authority to speak for anybody else
JG>except yourself even if a few people have indicated the agree with you.
Well, you haven't impressed me.
But Dan often does (esp. in the pun threads).
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...A cat is, above all things, a dramatist.
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Posting
|Date: 24 Mar 96 23:31:00
EID:d0d0 2078bbe0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b8f8
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> Sure. What galls me is that we're derided as "ignorant fundies"
MH> for questioning such things as evolution, yet many atheists hold to
MH> evolution -- specifically, naturalistic evolution -- with a fundy-like
MH> fervor even though the facts fall far short of substantiating it, and
MH> they don't see that as equally closed-minded.
Many Christians have accepted evolution, recognizing that the evidence is
too overwhelming to dismiss. Doing so, relegates a major portion of their
religion to the realm of allegory, but they find that preferable to sticking
their heads in the sand and muttering "Is Not!"
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 24 Mar 96 23:42:00
EID:34b4 2078bd40
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b909
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DC> RB> Progressive Conservatives? Do you also have Reactionary
DC> RB> Liberals?
DC>
DC> They are on either side of the Neutral Activists.
I like it when guys like Dole and Gingrich say they have a vision for America.
A vision of what, 1910?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aspirin: Having great ambitions
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: [2/2] Re: lack of any
|Date: 24 Mar 96 23:47:00
EID:aed6 2078bde0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b91a
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
GR> Notice how the woman god has prepared for him isn't his wife yet.
GR>
GR> Wait till he has to wake up next to his princess for the rest of his
life.
GR> Wait till he finds out she actually passes gas, gets sick, wakes up
crabby
GR> has bad breath at times.
Isn't THAT a rude awakening? The delightful creature of my courtship actually
farts.
On a related note, do you suppose theists ever imagine Jesus farting, tossing
his cookies and having bad breath?
GR> Notice how this woman was prepared to meet HIS needs. What about him
meeti
GR> HER needs?
God created woman for the man, not vice versa.
GR> This moron is going to jump into marriage without having a clue as to
what
GR> marriage is all about.
Hopefully, he won't get one of those Stepford wives who actually buy the
biblical line of bull.
GR> I hope she snores.
I hope she snores AND farts.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 25 Mar 96 0:02:00
EID:b13c 20790040
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b92b
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
JB> RB> Thanks Judith. BTW, I LOVE your belly button and would you care
JB> RB> to go out for some quiche and maybe a little dancing?
JB>
JB> DANCING???? What kind of a girl do you think I am? Can't we just
JB> fuck instead?
My Gawd! I've inadvertently stumbled upon the perfect pickup line. All
you single guys, jot this down: "I LOVE your belly button and would you
care to go out for some quiche and maybe a little dancing?"
And to answer your question Judith, YES!
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: better than
|Date: 25 Mar 96 0:09:00
EID:fe18 20790120
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b93c
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DC> RB> Everyone say C-H-E-E-S-E-S! Should the shorter gods kneel in the
DC> RB> front row?
DC>
DC> Nahh, wouldn't be right. Gods should never kneel, unless their
DC> goddesses are present.
We'd probably play hell getting any of the gods to admit they were shorter
anyway (God ego being what it is).
DC> Sure you can! You can do whatever you want. After all, you're
DC> a god...
Ok, I think I'll require that everyone worship me or they'll suffer for
eternity...oh wait, that's been done.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 25 Mar 96 23:45:00
EID:6932 2079bda0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b94d
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
JH> I'd like to kill whatever entity thinks they can force me into
JH> one of these idiotic "The Lady and the Tiger" ethical tests that
JH> only have binary outcomes.
JH> The answer to this one is obvious. Exchange clothes with the chimp.
JH> Grab the fetus... yuch.. wipe hands and forget about fetus. Scream
JH> something about Waco, climb into the tank and run over both the lady
JH> and the tiger. As soon as you cross the county line, get out of the
JH> tank and tell the chimp to keep on driving. Move to Grand Rapids.
You forgot the part about cursing the pope.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 25 Mar 96 23:54:00
EID:5e69 2079bec0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b95e
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
JB> JB> For a violent, science-ignorant society such as the Middle East
had,
JB> JB> would think of Himself as what -they- thought He was, hence act
that
JB> JB> way. But later, as information became more scientific, He would
JB> JB> behave less stupidly....
JB>
JB> JB> (*(chuckle)*)
JB>
JB> RB> I'm more than a little relieved to see that (chuckle), John.
JB>
JB> ARE you now....? (*g*) The above ain't _100%_ humor.... There's some
JB> interesting reasoning behind it.
And maybe we have little universes inside OUR brains. Of course, the inhabitants
of the '19 year old male universe' brains would be running around with perpetual
woodies.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ARGUMENTS
|Date: 26 Mar 96 0:03:00
EID:aead 207a0060
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b96f
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> Partly it is anthromorphism...unable to imagine what it is like to
be God,
AS> so making human parallels. Sometimes it is as you suggest, for evidence
IS
AS> often stronger to convince than sheer faith. (Which is fortunate.)
I don't
AS> see faith as conflicting with evidence. (If my faith is conflicting
with
AS> evidence, it is invariably my interpretation of my faith that is at
fault,
AS> paraphrasing Augustine.) I see it as an extension. I believe I have
good
AS> reasons for my belief in God, but I admit I have no conclusive, just
AS> contributory evidence, and sometimes my faith extends a little further
AS> than the strict evidence would allow.
I don't see sufficient evidence to believe in any gods. But if you choose
to believe and that is the parameters in which you wish to live your ONE
life, that is your prerogative. You've demonstrated that YOUR beliefs are
not particularly threatening or repulsive to the rest of us. But some practitioners
of your religion ARE.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Mar 96 0:21:00
EID:03e4 207a02a0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b980
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> First off, I didn't say believe without evidence. If you can't
AS> necessarily perceive God directly, you might be able to deduce His
AS> existence from the way He shaped the universe. (I.E., the anthropic
AS> coincidences. If one could show that the variables on the universe
could
AS> cover a broad range and still result in intelligent life, any argument
AS> showing design would be nullified. That is NOT what we have.)
Before the 'cosmic variables' argument, we had the 'ideal earth' argument
(the fortuitous placement and conditions of the earth point to a designer).
But then, when one considers the sheer numbers (billions of galaxies with
billions of stars), the 'miracle' of an ideal planet loses some lustre.
The argument for an 'ideal universe' could have the same weakness as the
ideal earth OR this could be the only way the universe could have unfolded
OR this could be the way the universe DID unfold and we are the result.
BTW, I'm not sure I would call this universe 'ideal' where life sustaining
qualities are concerned. Unless you consider an ant floating on a tiny
chip of paint in a barrel of acid 'ideal'.
Your eagerness to assign the universe a creator is on a par with your eagerness
to assign credibility to the resurrection.
AS> Or if there
AS> were thousands of cults which had the disciples claiming to see their
AS> leader rising from the dead, Jesus would be another drop in the bucket,
AS> especially if they risked death, imprisonment, et al for claiming
to
AS> see such a miracle.
If there were thousands of cults which claimed to see risen leaders, the
claim would no longer be extraordinary. It would be more like a 300 game
in bowling.
AS> Oddly enough, that claim of firsthand witness of a
AS> miracle by multiple witnesses is near-unique.
Think about this one Al. Wouldn't an outlandish claim such as a resurrection
(arrived at by deception, delusion or misinformation) be expected to be
near-unique?
AS> As for heaven/hell thing...
-----------------------------------
AS> Golly. Really comforting there.
Let me put it this way: Do you think Christianity would have emerged as
a distinct religion (separate from Judaism) without it's particular twist
on the afterlife?
AS> The Egyptians talked about judging the soul after death by Anubis.
The
AS> more primitive tribes merely talked about ghosts...for everyone. Rather
AS> than a progression from primitive heaven/hell to more enlightened
AS> nonbelief, the progression seems to be from a vague belief in a ghostly
AS> afterlife to a sharp dichotomy.
As with biological evolution, ideological evolution is not always from the
primitive to the advanced. That's why the world isn't populated with atheists.
AS> I think you underrate primitive people severely. I don't think
AS> they are as gullible and credulous as you would like to believe.
Maybe you're right. Maybe modern people are more gullible and credulous
than the primitives. After all, they've got a lot of the answers to nature's
questions and they STILL believe in gods who hurl lightening bolts.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 26 Mar 96 0:48:00
EID:8003 207a0600
MSGID: 1:280/26 8108b991
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> RB> There is little similarity between a 1 1/2 year old infant
AS> RB> and a 10 week old fetus.
AS> Give it 68 weeks. You'll see the similarity.
Ah, but there's the rub. Abortion is a matter of timing. The window of
choice is only open a relatively short time.
AS> Sure. But that is true of anything. There are some books that I value
AS> more than a chimp.
You'd kill a chimp before you destroyed a book? Monster!
AS> Um. About the same thing acorns have to do with mighty oak trees. (I.E.,
AS> one is absolutely necessary for the other to develop.)
Which would cause you more distress?.. Smashing an acorn or felling a mighty
oak tree? Which one currently has the most value?
AS> Then, if you are in a coma, not cognizant of anything, have you no
more
AS> rights than a fetus?
I had a 'once functioning' brain. The fetus never acquired a functioning
brain.
AS> Practically any criteria you think of, I can think
AS> of an exception for.
Not an applicable one.
AS> Why not just admit it is abitrary? I have long said
AS> that the abortion debate is not a thing of reason but of definition.
It can be a thing of reason if it isn't clouded by religious influence and
undue emotionalism. If a fetus has no more cognition than a house plant,
then where is the misdeed in choosing to terminate it UNLESS you're influenced
by religion or misplaced emotionalism?
AS> you think a fetus is a human being, than abortion is murder. If you
AS> think a fetus is part of the woman's body, it can be gotten rid of
AS> easily. There is no real comprimise here, and the only hope is that
AS> someday contraception will be so good, and eugenics will be so good,
so
AS> unwanted pregnancies rarely occur, and those that do are raised in
AS> artificial wombs.
Embryos should be taken from women's wombs and made to develop? I see that
as the state commandeering what should be the woman's decision.
AS> Very well, I withdraw the 'contempt'. But I still hold the pro-choice
AS> side is every bit as abitrary as the pro-life side.
If you can show me that a first trimester fetus has any kind of real sentience,
I'll reconsider. As of now, it's more barbaric to dissect a frog than perform
a first trimester abortion.
AS> And a six-month year old is not the same as an adult. Yet both are
AS> protected equally under the law as far as the taking of the life is
AS> concerned.
Here we go with the POST-natal comparisons again. A fetus is a rudimentary
stage of human development, unlike ANY stage of post-natal human.
AS> If by my act I KEPT her from doing so, wouldn't I be? If I kept a
child
AS> locked in a closet all his life, in a foul enviorment, and then end
that
AS> life, can I argue, "Well, he lived such an awful life, he was better
off
AS> dead?"
A child locked in a closet is POST-natal and has nothing to do with fetuses.
AS> Babies in the womb DO react to stimuli. It is not hard to get the
AS> baby to kick in the later stages of pregnancy. They react. They hear
AS> (which is why some newborns respond well to the sound of a mother's
AS> heartbeat, put on tape in the nursury.), etc.
Late stage abortions are only performed in emergencies. Most are performed
in the first trimester when the fetus is about half the size of your little
finger.
AS> Remember, the baby will do
AS> all the things you mentioned above...UNLESS YOU STOP IT. Can I castrate
AS> my sons because they haven't (well, Jamie is going through adolescence)
AS> gone through adolescence yet? Why not? They're not using it...and
the
AS> answer is obvious. Left to time's passage, they WILL use it. Same
with
AS> ALL of the above.
Jamie is fully functional and will probably be quite pissed off if you whack
his weenie. A fetus doesn't know a weenie from a beanie. You could do
anything to the fetus and it wouldn't know a thing (and that's the whole
point).
AS> (Thinking about the fragmented German tribes. Of the Viking raids
on the
AS> rest of Europe. Of the darkest part of the Dark Ages.) Yep. Could
have
AS> been a LOT worse.
And yet, we still see friction between Christian sects and EXTREME friction
between certain monotheisms that share the same roots.
AS> RB> God is simply the figurehead for man's morality.
AS>
AS> Good theory. It's marred by the fact that most early religions do
NOT
AS> believe in a punishment in the afterlife, but that all alike go into
a
AS> misty netherworld which is worse than life.
Why does that mar it? Early religions may have had more to do with taboos
(elementary things that aided survival) than rewards and punishments. Eternal
bliss and eternal damnation required a more 'sophisticated' mind.
AS> Possibly. But no one has come up with a convincing alternative--if
the
AS> Biblical accounts bear no relation to reality, it became convincing
in a
AS> mere twenty years (Paul) when many witnesses to the original events
were
AS> there to confirm or deny. And if you can give me a plausible scenario
AS> that explains how MANY people can think they 'saw' something that
didn't
AS> happen, I WILL opt for door number three.
ALL religions became convincing to their adherents. If humans have demonstrated
anything, it's that they're more than willing to believe incredible tales
involving deities.
The possibility that MANY people (mostly illiterate fanatics) claimed they
saw something is a woefully inadequate reason to jump on the 'Jesus is God'
bandwagon.
AS> I think something must be also said for the validity of the phenomena
AS> claimed in light of the claim Jesus was making. If I say I could raise
men
AS> from the dead, you would go, "Why YOU?" But Jesus claimed equality
with
AS> God, and THEN pulled a miracle. He made a claim and then produced evidence
AS> afterwards for it.
There's one major difference. If YOU claimed you could rise from the dead,
you would be met with mostly skepticism (even from avowed theists). Jesus
made his claim to SUPPORTERS. Cult members of HIS cult. These people would
be much more susceptible to a 'miracle' than a neutral or skeptical audience.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: [1/2] [1/2] Tithe
|Date: 01 Apr 96 22:05:38
EID:823f 2081b0a0
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 1451ffb2
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 233 days
DC> Please explain to me just what any real benefit any professional
DC> sporting event provides to anyone, let alone society in general?
They allow us to take out our tribal aggressions on
neighboring tribes without doing any real damage.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Apr 96 22:05:39
EID:06de 2081b0a0
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 1451ffb3
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 233 days
GM> Man gropes his way through life's dark maze,
GM> To gods unknown he lifts his praise;
GM> But when he seeks to know God's Son,
GM> He finds in Him the Living One.
GM> -Dennis J. De Haan
The woman is groped and pinched by flirts,
To men unknown she lifts her skirts;
But when she seeks the thing to lick,
She finds in her a Real Big Dick.
-Rob J. De Burcham
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:01:00
EID:9583 207f4020
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E3AB2
AS> As sure as I can be, short of a divine revelation. Such would be the
RH> But you are seemingly in conflict with Divine revelation. You don't
RH> like what you read so you reject it as unworthy of a merciful God.
On the contrary. I have read it quite well. Read the passages in Romans
where it says that a pagan's conscience is his advocate before God. I've
read ALL of it, not just latched o a few key verses.
AS> work of a divine Sadist. A divine Sadist would make the world much
AS> more cruel than it is...make you feel razorsharp pain everytime you
AS> breath, or give you a flaming sensation when you have to go to the
AS> bathroom. Though by no means perfect, I see no such flagrant cruelty.
RH> Look around a bit. Check out Africa.
And then check out the Riviera. Much of Africa's immense problems are due
to politics. Farmers here are told to destroy their surplus crops, rather
than ship it to the starving in Africa...and if we did, it would be
confiscated in many cases by political forces. I am not minimizing or
trying to evade the immense problem of the famines in Africa, which are
a
shame and a disgrace to the human race. But they are a disgrace to the
HUMAN race for allowing such to happen, because it IS within our power to
alleviate it.
AS> I rather see us left to pick our own way. I doubt if two of my sons
AS> will ever be baptized or confirmed in any way that means anything,
AS> because they may never be able to signal their understanding of same.
RH> Read it again. You must repent and be baptised, no exceptions.
Yet Jesus specifically says that God is the God "OF Abraham", indicating
that there was an afterlife, and Abraham was with Him. Paul speaks of the
conscience of the pagan being its "advocate" with God. You have to read
the whole thing, Roger. Besides, does a baby have anything to "repent" of?
Anybody can take one verse out and run with it, but reading the whole
thing leads to greater understanding.
AS> If God allows such an affliction, a
AS> God who would still damn them anyway would be no God worthy of
RH> My point exactly. The biblical God is NOT worthy of wordship. You are
RH> just ignoring a hurtful truth.
Could be. I'm certainly not above reading things with bias. But it's like
clapping on to John's statement that a "Chrisian does not sin" and then
ignoring his statement a few verses later that if a Christian succumbs to
temptation, he has an advocate before the Father. I am just reading it with
understanding, and trying not to take one verse out of context. (The
"could be" applies to the ignoring the hurtful truth. Obviously I think
the Biblical God is worthy of worship.)
AS> worship. By the same token, I am not concerned that those who lived
AS> before Christ are necessarily damned...I can use that passage in
AS> Romans to justify the idea that the pagans are saved somewhat by their
AS> good works. But the forgiveness for major sins? I do think that is the
AS> province of Christianity.
RH>
RH> Which leaves a lot of souls suffering who died BEFORE Christ.
Yes; in the sense that murderers had not the option to repent of their
sins, for instance.
AS> See above. I think Socrates and Virgil will have little to worry
RH> You THINK? Evidence, Al.
Again, the section of Romans in which Paul speaks of the conscience of the
pagan being its advocate before God. But obviously I must qualify it with
the "I think". I am not God, and am not privy to His thoughts. And I am
speicifically instructed NOT to judge before the end times.
RH> That's Dante. How about YHVH?
What about Him? I am making informed guesses. Obviously I don't claim a
pipeline with God. But I think I can justify most of the statements I make
concerning God within Scripture.
... All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Treachery
|Date: 31 Mar 96 07:09:00
EID:4cb7 207f3920
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E3DC8
-=> Quoting Mark Craig to All <=-
MC> Beware! Pastor David K. Smith is a government operative. 95% of what
MC> he tells you is objective truth, then he slips in the lie. There is
no
MC> provision in the Constitution for the President to suspend the
MC> document.
Thanks for the warning. You know, you must really enjoy your paranoia.
(PS. to all: what is Mark blathering about? Who's Rev. Smith? Is Mark REALLY
talking about suspending the Constitution? Sincerely, puzzled.)
... Please ignore this message. The author is insane.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick Macfarlane
|Sub: CAMPBELL
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:00:00
EID:52ac 207f4000
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E402A
AS> Maybe that's what we should all strive for...to awaken the
AS> sleeping part that is lulled by the day to day living in this world.
RM> ... Huh? What? Uh.....
RM> Sorry, I missed that.
And have a little fun while doing it. After all, when you're awake, you
are more aware of the GOOD stuff too...
... They got the library at Alexandria. They're not getting mine.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: MESSAGE TO ASMODEUS
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:02:00
EID:77da 207f4040
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E42A0
AS> Echo Olympics. Freestyle Message Irgnoring. But...what if Tonya
AS> Harding comes in and tries to break their typing fingers?
DC> "Irgnoring"? Sounds like you have already attempted to test it
DC> out and she had her baseball bat ready!
Rather her than Lorena Bobbitt. It wouldn't affect my typing, but...
AS> It's amazing the number of people at work who were ready to excuse
AS> Tyson's rape on the grounds that he can fight well.
DC> It's not so much that he can fight well, it's that he can command
DC> a large box office to make money for a lot of people. Justice
DC> may be blind, but it does see a lot better when it's pockets
DC> are filled with cold cash.
DC> It's a pity that people will pay to view someone like that and
DC> ignore the rest of society's ills.
And yet Muhammed Ali was robbed of his title for a time because he
refused to fight in Vietnam. Go figure.
... Entropy always wins.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FRIED ICE CREAM
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:06:00
EID:b251 207f40c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E44F8
AS> I know my mother tried...and failed, using the same recipe. With Pop,
AS> it was definitely an art. But I might try to get it from her, what she
AS> remembers, the next time I talk with her, and perhaps you could
DC> I won't know if its right unless you taste it! And, a recipe is
DC> just a basic guideline. I've been fortunate to be able to make
DC> my Dad's bread the way he did it.
I should have let him apprentice me while I had the chance and stood by
and let him guide me. But since it took all afternoon, I had too many
other things to do. Too bad.
DC> Sounds like my family! Each had their specialties and they each
DC> acceded to the other. My Mom makes the best cakes, pies and
DC> cookies in the world, as well as the best turkey stuffing (and
DC> I know how to do that, too!)
I love good dressing, too. We usually reserve it for holidays, simply to
keep it "special".
AS> We'll keep trying. BTW, Barb said I was the best husband for a young
AS> wife to have, because I like my meat...uh...very well done. And most
DC> Well done beef is red, very, VERY RED!
You and my father would agree. Personally, I like to cremate mine.
DC> I learned a long time ago that food was not only cheaper homemade,
DC> but tastier, too. Besides, it's a very good way of tempting
DC> girls to your domicile, especialy if they like wine with their
DC> food. }:-)
Hmmm. Brian's shown some interest in cooking, perhaps that would be a way
to give him an incentive to learn......even Jamie has shown an
interest in cooking, and helps Barb occasionally with the minor things.
(Eric's too young, as yet, I think, to help.)
AS> Could be. But I know my mother couldn't match his.
DC> My bewst guess is that she burns it!
Not ENOUGH... No, I was the only person in my immediate family (my
grandfather was dead when I was growing up) who had this peculiarity of
taste.
... ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you freak.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORM
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:02:00
EID:80e3 207f4040
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E48E0
AS> reserve it for those who REALLY deserves it. Like Grigor-Scott.
DC> He deserves the kick in the groin!
AS> You sure that he has anything to hurt there?
DC> Only his brain, but you have to have any impact on it, you have
DC> to go after it from the his posterior...
Judging from the last post I saw from him, where he called Marty
Goldberg, of all people, anti-Semitic, I think you're right. He's full of
it.
... "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you." - Inigo Montoya
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: THIS IS 1 VIEW
|Date: 31 Mar 96 00:05:00
EID:d507 207f00a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E4B74
RV> Don't know if this will help at all Al. It was a posting
RV> i got from a fellow from a different net. Since it's the 1'st different
RV> view of a reglious nature . I kept it as a text file.
RV> Perhaps it may give you at least one point of view , from a Jew. Who
RV> seems to know the bible somewhat. . I have been following some of
RV> his posting , the person who posted this seems ,somewhat. Like Yourself
RV> . Not offending here. He writes as if there is a G-d ,but he appears
to
RV>question ,some items of his faith.
RV> Hope this makes it from the Black Hole of Fido.
It did indeed, and is saved to disc. Thanks a lot. Actually, it tied right
into some of the things I was reading concerning the historical background
of JEsus and his times.
RV> As < God or G-d > would have it , this was one of his last
RV> posting. The bbs he was posting from, CRS got
RV> bought out and close down his feed. It's too bad , as i was
RV> hopeing to find someone ,where i could get a different point of
RV> view along the lines of the Jews. But a person who ,was still
RV> believeing in god. Alas ,thats how it goes in this crazy land
RV> of electronic mail. Other then 'Holysmoke' most conference up this
RV> way usually would of kick this type of person off , for
RV> questioning the belief in a God , well the Christian God anyhow.
Yes, unfortunately there's a lot of that.
RV> I beat up on the God believeing folks in this town , you may not
RV> know it , but even yourself and Mike ,who wants to leave , give
RV> the bullets to place in the guns. You give good material to
RV> question and use . Keep going , Al. you may get as bad as me.
RV> " God , are u sure about that ??" .. Just a slight dig since
RV> you do question some things.
If I don't question, than I'm saying my knowledge is complete. Far from
it.
RV> I usually just sit back , and watch the Better Educated ,go at it
RV> mainly since I'm not. You and Linda ,and a few old times side> plus the ones on the other side
RV> between the both sides ,and the reference material /etc> help a lot ,if nothing else to get closer to any truth
RV> that is out there.
Yeah, but don't let that "Better Educated" thing worry you. Yeah, this
can be a pretty unforgiving enviorment. But anyone can join in.
RV> Keep up the good work Al. Your one of the few that
RV> the world ,can see.
RV> .Can't allow a big head,now can we.
RV> One of the better , that's for dam sure.
Uh oh. I better not tell you about the ten old ladies I mugged on the way
to work today... Well, thanks for the compliment, but trust me, I
don't do as much as I should, unfortunately. It's easy to TALK. It's
harder to do.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 31 Mar 96 00:06:00
EID:5f35 207f00c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E4DF4
AS> Could be. But it would be kind of an odd coincidence, that the oldest
AS> fragment we have just happens to be the original. Especially since it
AS> was found in EGYPT, not Palestine or Rome or Cyprus.
DC> Which shows that Christianity started in Egypt? The problem
DC> still remains that there are no earlier documents to show
DC> that the later documents are copies of other than what was
DC> written at that time.
No, it shows the dry Egyptian climate is very well-suited to preserving
ancient manuscripts. Dan, we don't have (by a LARGE margin) the originals
for Virgil, for Thycydides, for Cicero, for Seneca. Most of the oldest
copies we have for the above is around 1000 AD, which are obviously copies
made by monks. Practically everything we know about the ancient world
is due to the patient scribbling and rescriblling of monks...the Biblical
manuscripts we have are much closer to the source than pracically ANYTHING
we have from a similar span of time.
DC> Wait a minute there.... You have 2 people, not mentioned by
DC> name, yet you know there names?
AS> Process of elimination. James and John are mentioned very prominently
AS> in the other Gospels. The Gospel of John mentions all of them BUT
DC> What about the disciples Ralph and Norton? They weren't mentioned
DC> in any of the gospels... ;)
One of these days, Dan, one of these DAYS...POW! ZOOM! To the MOON!
What did Norton do, dig the latrines for the apostles as they were
travelling?
AS> best". From the other Gospels, it seems most likely to be John...and
AS> of course, the writer of the Gospel of John claims to BE the "disciple
AS> Jesus loved best" (I want to see a Gospel by the disciple Jesus "just
DC> Again, a claim that is not substantiated by any other gospel
DC> document other than in John. Someone has already noted that
DC> that "beloved disciple" was none other than Judas.
WHAT??? And JUDAS dogged Peter's steps, even outrunning Peter to the
tomb? And Judas sometimes called himself the "beloved disciples" and
sometimes "Judas". Judas described his own death? I see that Lazarus and
JEsus weren't the ONLY ones to pull off a Resurrection around here...
AS> Again: same writing style as 1 John, where John is named as the
AS> writer. It's not implied that the author DIDN'T know the name, but
AS> that he didn't name them...either out of modesty, out of vanity ("the
DC> So, you are saying that the word of god was modified out of human
DC> emotion and doesn't depict the true word of god.
???? Certainly it reflects the emotions and bias of the human author.
I don't think the Scriptures are literally God dictating word for word
and that Matthew, Mark, John,et al were taking down dictation. I think,
basically, that what we see as the Scriptures are the writings that God
most approves of, that He has gathered together to give us guidance, the
way a teacher might gather together various answers from bright students
and paste them together as a general code of conduct. And yes, that the
way such writings are gathered together are extremely earthly, just
acting through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, sometimes unbeknown to
the compilers. (Some of the writings may be inspired by the H.S., but if
so,
I don't think that Scripture is a form of automatic writing like mediums
indulge in.
I can see the personality of Peter, or John, and some of the others
quite clearly. They were not "possessed". And yes, one must take into
account the personality and the bias of the writer.
DC> Not that I remember. I'll check on that, but the reference was
DC> to the judicial proceedings conducted during Pilate's rule.
Hmmm. But we know of several such trials...the incident with the swords
and shields, the slaughter of the Samaritans, in Pilate's tenure.
Went by the library, BTW, and they didn't have the book, but found a
good nontheist biography of Paul by Micheal Grant, a very renowned
historian, something called the JESUS CONSPIRACY, one of those things
that claim to explain how the "trick" of Jesus' Resurrection happened,
several books on the historical Jesus, including one about His trial and
execution that looks pretty good, and Hume's essays to re-read and a
book by Bishop Spong. The Paul book ought to be interesting in view of
your belief that the church that we have is very different from the
original Jerusalem Church. Will let you know what I find out.
... I'm not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 31 Mar 96 09:01:00
EID:9b8e 207f4820
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E509C
AS> Yeah, let's see Farrakhan in the middle of the Aryan Nation
AS> types.
JH> Not to mention that Farrakhan already has plenty of soldiers which
JH> are far better trained, organized and disciplined than anything the
JH> militias will ever be able to scrape together. For one thing,
JH> Farrakhan's security people have enough sense to stay away from
JH> the media and to keep THEIR MOUTHS SHUT.
Why do I feel like Marie Antoinnette just before Robespierre shows up?
AS> Wouldn't suprise me a bit. And I try not to underrate him.
AS> Hitler signed a treaty with Stalin, remember...which of
AS> course, he later broke. People underrated Hitler for a
AS> while, and look what happened there...
JH> I munged that paragraph horribly. I was in a hurry to finish it
JH> and go to work. Glad you got what I was trying to say. Their
JH> ideological differences are far too great to allow any cooperative
JH> efforts. Also characters like Farrakhan depend on being the sole
JH> person in charge. Even beyond their personal egos, the role demands
JH> that the 'person in charge' be The Leader. That's what their
JH> followers want. They want a Leader, not a member of a coalition or
JH> cooperative effort. To be seen as anything other than the Leader
JH> would spell the end of Farrakhan's career.
But politics (and lunacy) make strange bedfellows sometimes...like
Hitler, with his views on Aryan purity, and Tojo, a Japanese warlord,
and an Oriental.
JH> That being said, I wouldn't however rule out any covert cooperation.
JH> They have enough enemies in common that it doesn't seem the least
JH> bit unlikely. The paralell between Hitler and Stalin is a good one.
JH> I could easily see such a secret treaty between the Nation of Islam
JH> and some of the White groups with each side planning on being the
JH> one who benefits by breaking the treaty later.
Or maybe dividing the country between them, if they had their way.
Lovely.
... I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ALLERGORY
|Date: 31 Mar 96 09:02:00
EID:7dfb 207f4840
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E54AC
AS> I'm not sure what kind of ailments assail you...
DC> I'm aflicted with cronic apundicitis.
That's what you get for being the fastest Pun in the West.
... "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" - Ockham
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION
|Date: 31 Mar 96 09:06:00
EID:ebf9 207f48c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E5722
AS> escape to Israel and elsewhere. The Illuminati, however, remain
AS> amazingly elusive, compared to Nazism and Communism. Why is that, I
AS> wonder? Such well guarded secrecy might be so complete as to defy
SA> Because we keep ourselves well covered.
Funny, I heard many of the Illuminati work as strippers on the side...
SA> Fnord.
Gezundheit.
... I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 31 Mar 96 09:08:00
EID:2963 207f4900
MSGID: 1:116/19 023E5984
AS> along the way. Tolkien originally was going to make Elrond/Strider a
AS> hobbit rather than a Man. Treebeard, the Ent, was originally intended
SA> [SMACK!] Elrond was a full Elf. Strider was Aragorn, son of
SA> Arathorn, a Man.
Ouch! Nice right hook. Well, yes, I goofed. I meant to write
Aragorn/Strider. But you goofed too. Earendil, a man, was Elrond's
father, as I remember. Elrond and his brother were given their choice of
which of the Kindreds to be. Elrod chose to be Elf, and his brother chose
to be a man, and was I believe Aragorn's remote ancestor. (My LANGUAGES
OF MIDDLE EARTH, which had the family trees done so nicely, is now so
much kindling, and I feel lazy enough not to look it up in LOTR).
SA> I've run into evil walking trees before. (Yes, while playing AD&D.
SA> Where else?) They don't seem to like flaming flasks of oil much.
I notice in that list of D&D stuff you sent George Mooth you included
Larry Niven's Sunflower plants, as well.
SA> Looks like you need to give it a re-read. ;)
Actually, I know it pretty well, but I'm always glad to do so.
SA> Of course, truth to tell, I'm in the process of reading it myself
SA> - hadn't read any of that since I was a kid, but as I've gotten
Then forget what I said about Elrond being half-Man. That is a minor
detail that you probably wouldn't remember.
SA> back into gaming a few months ago, I thought it might be helpful,
SA> at least insofar as xD&D and MERP is concerned. Next I'll likely
SA> be reading another book I picked up over a year ago and haven't
SA> gotten to yet - "Werewolves of London", by Brian Stableford ..
SA> mainly because a local user is selling me his 1st edition
SA> Werewolf: The Apocalypse sourcebook next week, and now that we
SA> ave a free day (one of our weekend GMs flaked out) I'm thinking
SA> of running some sort of campaign or another of my own. This
SA> should be interesting, considering I've never run one before.
Read "Three Hearts and Three Lions" by Poul Anderson.
SA> One thing about gaming though - you do get to learn about
SA> interesting obscure weaponry. One of the weapons I could have had
SA> for my cleric character was a mace with holy water in it - you
SA> bash someone across the head and sprinkle them with the stuff
SA> through holes at the same time. Turns out this was a REAL weapon,
SA> invented by some monk or another during the Crusades. It was
SA> tempting, but I went with a magical +3 staff/flail instead. :)
You'll be sorry, when you encounter a vampire...
... It's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: TENNESSEE COMMAND
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:05:00
EID:06d5 208138a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BDF4E0
AS> I may have made up more. I think you have a larger collection of
AS> taglines.
DC> Hate to say it, but a lot of my taglines are home grown!
Sometimes they are the best kind...
AS> And hey, you've been posting a lot of messages for YEARS.
DC> About 3 or 4 or so...
Three or four years of this silliness? And I thought _I_ was addicted...
AS> I've only been doing it on Holy Smoke for a little more than a year.
AS> So you doubtless have more TOTAL messages on here, easily.
DC> You're just trying to get on this god's good side...
Pascals wager...but hedging my bets.
DC> Keep it up, as that last one moved you out of the adjoining
DC> room I had reserved for you with Assmodeus! ;)
But I get to visit and decide the form of punishment occasionally, right?
Let him curse away...
DC> (Then again, it does make it easier on his punishment. Perhaps
DC> I'll move Prewitt directly in with him...)
Prewitt...and Asmodeus? Ahhhhh, now THERE's an Eternity worth
watching!
How about Grigor-Scott and the Jewish guy who assasinated the Israeli
prime minister recently?
Oh! Good news! That Tennessee anti-evolution law was killed. It didn't
pass out of the final committee, and was defeated by a good margin. Maybe
there's hope for us yet!
... No sense in being pessimistic--- it won't work anyway.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ISMS
|Date: 31 Mar 96 02:05:00
EID:214b 207f10a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE030E
AS> Although sometimes it IS, and the Judeo-Christian framework is just
AS> an excuse to express hate, as Grigor-Scott warps the word of God to
AS> justify his antisemitism.
DC> It's it's readily available ability to do just that is the main
DC> point of this echo in the first place.
Well...it's like freedom and equality. Nothing can be so misused, but
nothing can be so right when done well.
AS> The psychiatrist's offices are filled with patients, as large a number
AS> who are nontheist as theist, riddled with guilt in their lives, who
DC> Guilt doesn't require a religion. It is about not doing something,
DC> anything, that does not coincide with the moral standards of the
DC> person feeling they betrayed, not the others, themself.
But in some cases the guilt is crippling them, ruining their happiness and
peace of mind. If it only their individual ethos, than surely they would
realize they are committing mental suicide...which you would think would
be a greater offense against their ethos.
AS> what do they feel guilty about? Who have they offended that matters?
DC> Themself. Though it sounds a lot easy to say that they betrayed
DC> a god or an ideal, neither exists without their accedence to
DC> that particular betief.
True, there is no feeling of betraying a God without a belief in God. But
there are many people's whose INSTINCTIVE ethics seem to be every bit as
strong and as consuming when trespassed, even if they have never stopped
to figure out an individual ethos for themselves. Partly it is absorbed
from the society, but that just beggars the question, why does a society
adopt such ethics and bring such consuming guilt if you betray them? Many
things we can do concerning society that nobody feels any guilt over,
like being cynical about politicians. Others, like a restriction against
private vengeance, even when justified, has to be fought against.
AS> confessional predated Freud's psychotherapy by some 1500 years, and
in
AS> some ways fulfills the same function. A lot cheaper, too.)
DC> Only monetarily.
That's right, you know more about the Catholic way of life than I. And
you obviously found it a bad experience. My apologies.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 31 Mar 96 02:04:00
EID:d19b 207f1080
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE0C00
DC> The schism is believable, as the Nag Hammadi Scrolls reveal. The
AS> do you really think, considering some of the other documents found
AS> there, that the Nag Hammadi find is what you might call the mainstream
AS> of the original beliefs?
DC> That could be difficult to determine, as most other documents
DC> extant at that time were destroyed. However, it speculation,
DC> posed as a question to you: Which group of xiantians is the
DC> fastest growing? The conservatives or the liberal versions?
Conservative. But then, despite the sex on TV and the movies, this is
really a more repressive society than we grew up in. AIDS, the coming
millinium,the rise of both the political and the religious right (not
arguing politics, but that's very different from the sixties, where the
right was on the defensive), the approaching millinium which I think will
panic a lot more people into going to church as they think the end of the
world might come at 2000 AD. I expect there will be a liberal period
coming between 2000 to 2020. When I grew up, sleeping around would result
in nothing worse than VD, cured easily by penicillin in most cases. These
days, it can kill you. The worst consequence of sleeping around when I was
young was life...i.e., pregnancy...not death.
So it's not suprising that the religious tenor of the time is leaning
towards the conservative. That's not always the case. The Puritians grew
fast for a time, but were soon overtaken by more moderate Christians.
AS> Again, the fact is that Lincoln was dead. The actual death may
AS> have been faked for effect.
But if I emulated some of the theories concerning Jesus, I would say that
Lincoln's double was killed, or he faked his death and that was dummy in
the coffin, etc. Some of the theories are THAT far out.
AS> That's not likely, as his statement he made would at least tend
AS> to show that he was at least a willing accomplice to the event,
AS> whether as history records, or in your scenario.
Practicing for a play! BTW, Ross Lockridge once said that the greatest
tragedy Shakespeare ever produced is one he never wrote...the tragedy of
Abraham Lincoln. If Booth hadn't been of a family of Shakespearean actors,
and an actor himself, he would not be so acclimated to plotlines where the
tyrant king is deposed, as Brutus did Caesar, and where great and grand
gestures were approved of. If Booth had been an accountant, I doubt if
Lincoln would have been shot.
AS> many of the same sort of hairbrained theories are given concerning the
AS> apostles and such. (Ever read the "Passover Plot"?) Irenaeus was
DC> No, but it is on my reading list.
I just got one called the JESUS CONSPIRACY...mainly about the Shroud of
Turin, but it's supposed to debunk the events on Golgotha. The Passover
Plot I first read in the late sixties, and I remember thinking...because
it hinged on a drug to make Jesus comatose being taken...that it reminded
me of a bad mystery novel of the twenties, with its "untraceable poisons"
and made-up drugs.
AS> bodyguard of Secret Service agents, without knowing that the practice
AS> STARTED after Lincoln's assasination. BTW, I agree with about Dr.
AS> Mudd. He was innocent.
DC> If at least some of your scenario is true, I'd place money on the
DC> fact that Stanton was the ringleader.
Actually, it wouldn't take much to make me believe that Stanton DID have
a
hand in it.
DC> Your documents have been faked in various fashions.
AS> Well...with all due respect...that assertion is for you to
AS> demonstrate.
DC> It has been. Larry Sites provided many examples of alterations,
DC> forgeries and frauds.
Certainly of acknowledged frauds, like the donation of Constantine. His
assertions concerning Irenaeus and Eusebius were a little on the unproven
side.
AS> My only problem with the conspiracy theory is any idea that Oswald
AS> was a full partner. What idiot would hire a loser like Oswald? I could
DC> Perhaps the same type that hired Boothe!
No, I can see Booth. He was a famous man, quite wordly in some ways, and
we know of at least some people who were in on the plot with him.
And he did have access to the President at a key moment.
Of course, the Illuminati are REALLY behind all such assasinations,
right?
NOT.
AS> see them making him a decoy, though, even perhaps thinking he was
AS> really doing it, while the professionals fired...
DC> The telling line is the one where he says he was a patsy. That may
DC> have been the last recorded statement he made before Jack Ruby
DC> got to him.
It's weird to think...because it's been thirty years, and the person who
ordered it was probably at least forty, an age where you can ammass
influence...that the person who really ordered it never paid for it, and
is probably a senior citizen now.
... The wrong way always seems the most reasonable course.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:09:00
EID:c44f 20813920
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE133A
AS> Mike? I think he's shown himself pretty game for quite a while. This
AS> whole thing might be a sneaky way to get MORE mail.
DC> Could be. As it stands, I've ignored it and a post to him when the
DC> need arises.
Well, that's between you and him.
AS> I've never even used my twit list. The "enter" button works a little
DC> That works for me, too. After all, you never know what little
DC> gem you may pick up from the twitee. Got a bit of info from
DC> Prewitt, BTW.
Did you check it from at least three independent sources?
AS> OR...maybe he's reading you ALL, and just trying to see who will
AS> rise to the bait.
AS> I'm sure he has had a chuckle or two. However, his only post back to
AS> me on his "great list" was a joke. He claimed that he twitted me
AS> for not being up to the caliber of, say, Marty Goldberg. However,
AS> he nevr brought up any points on any message the I wrote to him.
AS> Further, he continues to use the same unfounded beliefs as evidence
AS> to Marty that I've called him on. As Marty has done the same back
AS> at him, just how much longer will it take him to twit Marty?
Why do I feel like I'm in the middle of a sitcom where two people are
not talking to each other? "Al, tell Dan that I don't want to talk to
him," and ,"Al, tell Mike that that's fine with me."
AS> As it stands, he now cannot do that and support his premise for
AS> twitting me, et al and not the others. IOW, he has wove himself
AS> a tangled web, coated it with super-glue and dove in.
Someone was betting the one he's betting to twit for a month long vacation
from here is me. It makes some sense, since it's unlikely that I'd ever
say anything to make him twit me. But I don't think that's Mike's plan.
He also says it's not the question, but the insulting manner in which it
was raised. But again, that's between you and him.
... I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 31 Mar 96 03:05:00
EID:d19b 207f18a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE22BC
AS> And yet, He states explicitedly that He who sees the Father sees Me,
AS> for instance.
DC> Which means what? Very few characters in the bible were said to
DC> have seen god. If the statement is true, then god looks like
DC> some backwoods prophet from Galilee.
It is at least an indication of how He identifies Himself with God. As is
the forgiveness of sin, and many another statement.
DC> Why would a god need to be humbled? Oh yeah, forgot all the
DC> egotism evinced in the OT! Also, an omnipotent god would not
DC> have to do that, as it already would now of the attributes
DC> required to be humble.
Except finitude. He knows intellectually, of course. He "experiences" it.
But I can watch a movie about sailing. It is another thing ENTIRELY to be
actually in the seaboat, about to be swamped any moment by a storm, and
having no way to change the channel. Think about it. Even if He feels
every blow given to a condemned prisoner, He's God. He can divert His
attention to someone else if He wants, contemplate a supernova or a black
hole. To be there with no escape, no options, to be stuck in the body, and
in one particular body....to know helplessness, not second hand, not
vicariously, but in actuality...He needs to be in a human body, and only
in a human body (or at least one aspect of His consciousness, anyway) for
awhile. He will never know what it is like to be finite, to be stuck in
one body and one fate...not in His bones, not truly...without something
like the Incarnation.
AS> In fact, last I heard he really didn't give it up. I think he still
AS> thinks that we live in a Big Bang "bubble" in a larger, steady-state
DC> Seems like he hasn't, then. He just placed his theory into an
DC> untestable area and made it into a conjecture.
He also has a God-theory, but as I understand it, I think it is pretty
flaky. It makes Tipler's Omega Point theory seem tame.
DC> Yet, what would happen to history if not a single elephant ever
DC> got across the Alps?
AS> Let's see now, Rome doesn't get mad enough at Carthage to rub it
AS> out to the last man, and Carthage maintains its uneasy rivalry with
DC> Not necessarily. Consider if not a single elephant made the crossing.
DC> Then, consider that the Romans, suffering a defeat or two at the
DC> hands of the Carthaginians, make up the story to incite their
DC> people because of the "deadly weapon". Far fetched? It may
DC> have been repeated in the Gulf of Tonkin.
Hmmm. Good point.
AS> real competition...unless we have Hannibal crossing without the
AS> elephants, but crossing nevertheless...
DC> See above. As an attack would come at a rather undefended rear
DC> area, it's quite possible that the elephants never made it there.
Just like Washington never cut down the cherry tree.
... This echo just gets weirder and weirder. Oh wait. That's me. Sorry.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 31 Mar 96 03:03:00
EID:a238 207f1860
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE2B18
DC> However, I have the unestablished evidence that you do owe me the
DC> money, which is the point.
As I have the unestablished evidence that I paid it. But I see your point.
AS> Yes, but what I object to is the word "fact" as Sean uses it. There
AS> is a difference (as the FAQ clearly dilineates) between the scientific
AS> ASSUMPTION that things are false until proven true, and asserting
AS> that something is false because it has not been shown to be true.
DC> It is. It's the only way you can procede in an orderly fashion. If
DC> not, you would spend your life looking for unicorns. As there is
DC> no evidence to support their existance, there's no use wasting time
DC> a what still appears to be a futile search.
Ever hear of the writer who was an adult before she found out there were
no unicorns? I forget her name, but she said, "But...but...there ARE
zebras, and zebras have stripes, which are just plain silly!" I remember
it mentioned in James Thurber's LET YOUR MIND ALONE! (A wonderful satire
on self-help, Dale Carnegie type books) about how crushed and
disillusioned she was.
Still, I don't call it a fact, I just say there are no evidence for
unicorns, the way they are normally depicted. Although they were probably
inspired by distorted tales of real animals like rhinoceros.
AS> complete. To me, a fact is something that evidence has established as
AS> being true, and to call there not being God a FACT as opposed to an
AS> unproven assumption strikes me as a misuse of the word. In the
DC> Thing is, it falls into the same category as unicorns.
Well...a significant minority of the human race have had religious
experiences. (Interestingly, I was reading last night that Aldouis
Huxley's wife experienced a blinding light and a sense of overwhelming
presence, not unlike Paul of Tarsus.) Very few, even historically, claimed
to have seen unicorns, although I believe one Pope was presented with a
unicorn's horn. I wonder what it really was?
AS> "fact", that's all, which to me is data, not the absence of data. Sean
AS> is in essence saying he can prove a negative.
DC> To an extent, he can. The absense of evidence points to his
DC> premise.
I suspect we are arguing over semantics. What I would call "an unproven
assumption" he calls the negative a "fact". I generally reserve that for
something that I have evidence FOR.
... Emmanual doesn't pun...he Kant.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 31 Mar 96 03:05:00
EID:e751 207f18a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE3450
AS> And the successors to Lee did the same thing. I would tell you how
AS> many times Galactus has returned, but it would only depress you.
DC> Glactus was never killed off....or was he?
No. Although the Surfer WAS freed from Earth, and interestingly, it made
the stories better, nor worse. It turned out what was holding him to Earth
was the board, not himself. So if he changed his board to energy, it went
through Galactus' barrier, and he could reconstitute outside the barrier.
And of all people...it was Ben Grimm, the Thing, who first suggested that.
Galactus is now said to be "essential" to our reality...that if he did
die, the universe would die.
... This copy of planet Earth has been unregistered for 4 billion years.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 31 Mar 96 03:08:00
EID:58fe 207f1900
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE3B9E
BJ> I left the whole original text intact, as it seemed important to the
BJ> conversation.
Okay.
BJ> I can only speak from my experiences here...but I'll give a bit of insight
BJ> nto my abusive relationships...I've done a lot of thinking since, wondering
BJ> why I stayed as long as I did.
BJ> In my case, my ex- seemed like one of the "nice guys" when I first met
BJ> him...and the change from being "nice" to abusive was not overnight...it
was
BJ> more of a gradual thing.
BJ> It wasn't until he started drinking heavily that his true colors came
out. It
BJ> didn't start with physical abuse. At first it was just verbal put downs...I
BJ> was basically used to that _before_ I got involved with Michael, so
I didn't
BJ> think twice where it could be leading...
BJ> You've also got to take into consideration my frame of mind at the time.
I
BJ> was very vulnerable, very lonely. Something, even something bad, seemed
BJ> better than nothing at that point. Of course, add low self-esteem into
the
BJ> equation, and well-- you get the picture.
BJ> As I said before, it was a gradual thing. I was forgiving and kind-hearted
to
BJ> a fault when it came to Michael--maybe too much so...I thought that
love
BJ> conquered anything.
Too bad he couldn't do the same for you. Now, he's your ex. Was he ever
jailed or anything for what he did to you?
BJ> When the real abuse started (the hitting, the manipulating, the lying,
the
BJ> cheating, the stealing) things were basically out of my hands already...
BJ> That seems a bit ambiguous, so I'll give you a bit of background...
BJ> I met Michael through some mutual friends. Like I said, at first he
seemed
BJ> like a really great guy. So much so that he moved in with me only after
a few
BJ> days. Granted, people who I knew that knew him tried to warn me about
him,
BJ> but being smitten by that point, I didn't want to listen. Looking back,
I
BJ> should have...
BJ> He slowly but surely managed to manipulate me and everyone in my life.
If
BJ> someone caught on to his act, he cut them out of my life completely.
I lost
BJ> quite a few friends and family members....
BJ> At first, before I got some cajones of my own, I just sat back and took
his
BJ> abuse. I guess that stems from my childhood. Growing up, I learned the
hard
BJ> way that if you sat back and took it, it would end faster...If you stood
up
BJ> to someone, they'd beat you into a pulp. He would sit there and yell
and
BJ> scream at me and push me around until I was in tears...Eventually, I
started
BJ> standing up to him, which he didn't like too much. I learned to give
as good
BJ> as I got...which granted, wasn't the RIGHT thing to do (I should have
just
BJ> kicked him out on his ass). We fought constantly. At least once a day,
if not
BJ> more. In the meantime, he was cheating on me with everything that walked
by
BJ> him, was stealing both me and my grandmother blind.
BJ> Just a few examples--
BJ> -When I'd go to work, he'd take my grandmother to the bank and have
her
BJ> withdraw thousands of dollars at a time, which he'd either spend on
beer or
BJ> drugs, or gamble away, or take his friends out for the night on the
town
BJ> leaving them with the impression that he was "loaded". When we started
out, I
BJ> had about 10 grand saved and my grandmother had over 150 grand saved.
When
BJ> the relationship ended, both my grandmother and I were in debt up to
our
BJ> ears.
BJ> --Check out my reply to Judith about the kitten incident. He also killed
our
BJ> dog by beating it with a baseball bat because she was barking.
BJ> --He slept with my 14 year old (at the time) sister and convinced her
to try
BJ> to kill me. She hit me upside the head with a liquor bottle and chased
after
BJ> me with a hammer aimed at my head.
Wonderful. How is she now?
BJ> --He did his best to keep me off the computer, because at that time,
it was
BJ> my only form of solace. Ways include pouring beer all over my keyboard,
BJ> locking the keyboard and hiding the key, physically removing both the
BJ> keyboard and the outlet plug, among other things.
BJ> --Near the end of the relationship, when I tried to get him to leave,
he
BJ> turned my grandmother against me. One night, I was upstairs in my room
BJ> talking to a friend in NY...he cut the phone wire, came into my room
and
BJ> started hitting me...when I tried to get out of the house, he blocked
the
BJ> door...I told him to get out of the way or I'd punch him, and he refused
to
BJ> move...so I nailed him. He then proceeded to throw me down a flight
of stairs
BJ> and kick me in the head 'til I was bleeding...I managed to make it over
to a
BJ> neighbors house and called the cops. When the cops came, I was obviously
the
BJ> abused party...he told the cops some story about how my grandmother
was HIS
BJ> grandmother, and how I came to the house trying to hurt her, etc. which
was
BJ> the total opposite of the truth. My grandmother, by this time senile
and
BJ> brainwashed, was asked by the cops which one of us she wanted to stay
there.
BJ> She picked Michael....and emotionally, that was the biggest blow he
could
BJ> have ever dealt to me. The cops kicked me out of my house, and I ended
up
BJ> spending the night on the street, bleeding, barefoot, and half naked.
BJ> --My grandmother was a very sick lady. I had to quit my job in '93 to
take
BJ> care of her day and night. I did my very best as far as her welfare
as I
BJ> could (mind you, I was only about 20 at the time, and I think I did
a damn
BJ> good job) I had a sense of obligation to her, and I did it more out
of love
BJ> and respect than anything else. Mind you, I never laid a hand on her.
Sure, I
BJ> got mad at her...but I usually went off to my room and took out my
BJ> frustrations there on a pillow or the wall or something) Michael, one
day
BJ> when he was mad at me, called Adult Protective Services on me and convinced
BJ> them that I was abusing her. Being the smooth talker that he is, they
BJ> believed him. I cannot even begin to describe the hell I went through
because
BJ> of that. All of it without any justification at all.
BJ> The above is just a few of many different things he did...And I know
I
BJ> rambled a bit, but it'll bring me to the point I was trying to make...in
the
BJ> end, I didn't feel like I had any control of the situation at all anymore.
I
BJ> didn't feel like I had a choice in the matter...if I didn't put up with
it,
BJ> worse things would happen. The relationship ended because HE decided
to
BJ> leave, because he knew I was at the point where I would have killed
him
BJ> without regret or second thought....Scary, isn't it?
Look, quite frankly, I probably would've. If I were sleeping to someone
mistreating me that badly, I would've done it without much compunction,
even though my religion forbids me to...because I think it would be a
case of self-defense. That's HORRIBLE. And quite frankly, it makes me
glad I was born a male. Yes, males can be victimized too, but it is not
as pervasive a thing. If I had been in your situation and could have
thought up a fairly nondetectable way to kill him, I wouldn't have
hesitated much, any more than if I had been tied up and put in a dungeon,
if I kill my jailer while escaping, I won't lose any sleep over it.
But talk is cheap. Maybe I really wouldn't have done it in real life.
BJ> As far as what I'm looking for now...simple--just someone who will treat
me
BJ> like I deserve to be treated, and who wants to be treated the same in
return.
BJ> No lies, no head games, no ulterior motives. Now, if I could only find
BJ> him...-Becke
David Rice, Becke Jones, Becke Jones, David Rice....(luckily Quentin has
a girlfriend now...) I dunno, Becke. I think most men are not like that,
but having been burned so baldy once, I'D be real hesistant about getting
involved again, in your case. And that's a lonely way to live.
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 31 Mar 96 04:00:00
EID:57f6 207f2000
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE44AE
AS> Didn't they rule the same thing about St. George, the
AS> dragon-killer?
JH> George at least existed (though on this echo, I'm sure that point
JH> is contestable). About all that is really known about him,
JH> however, is that he was a first or second century martyr.
Which is more than I did before...
JH> The dragon story didn't crop up until about the sixth century and
JH> was further expanded and embelished as time went on.
I wonder if it started out as an allegory--George slaying the beast that
symbolized the evil in the world, etc.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 31 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:71b5 207f2040
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE4C7E
MH> You know, that's an interesting thought. Since Jospeh and Mary did have
MH> several children after Jesus, and there's no reason to think that at
MH> least some of them didn't also marry and spawn, somewhere in this world
MH> there probably ARE some people whose lineage goes directly back to
MH> Joseph and Mary.
I know a nephew of Jesus was supposed to be the leader of the Jerusalem
Church after James was killed, and that there were people claiming
relation to Jesus until the third century. Actually, if they had enough
kids where the genes spread, it's probable that must of us are descended
from Joseph and Mary, at least those with any European or Middle Eastern
blood at all.
... Be suspicious of all native-born Esperanto speakers.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ISMS
|Date: 31 Mar 96 04:06:00
EID:1f9a 207f20c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE50C0
AS> Although sometimes it IS, and the Judeo-Christian framework is just
AS> an excuse to express hate, as Grigor-Scott warps the word of God to
AS> justify his antisemitism.
MH> Certainly it can be. It is not, however, invariably so.
Don't exaggerate. I would say it is rarely so, in the majority of
cases. Unfortunately, the few cases that do use it to justify their hate
invariably do have long range consequences for society. Such is the power
of religion, that even when misused, it is one of the most powerful forces
humankind knows.
... This tagline does not exist. Provide evidence otherwise.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: HEY I'M NEW
|Date: 31 Mar 96 04:09:00
EID:858f 207f2120
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE580E
AS> OR...maybe he's reading you ALL, and just trying to see who will
AS> rise to the bait.
MH> Dan flatters himself. (Well, who else would?) I resisted using the twit
MH> filter for two solid years, until he and a few others degenerated to
MH> consistently posting nothing but insults and baits.
MH> He seems to have convinced himself that I twitted him because he was
MH> too formidable an opponent. In fact, the twin Martins, Rob Burcham,
MH> Aaron Boyden and Judith Bandsma are all far more challenging than Dan
MH> ... but they also base their challenges on meritorious arguments rather
MH> than personal insults, and they are still worth my time to read.
So it is the manner in which the question is given that determines whether
you twit them,then? You have nothing against the question, just the
insulting and flaming that go along with it. Well, if Marilyn can twit
you, I see no reason why you can't twit others. Nevertheless, I feel like
I'm in the middle of an old I LOVE LUCY script, where Lucy is going,
"Ethel, tell Ricky I am not talking to him," and Ricky is going, "Tell
Lucy that's just fine with me!"
... Posted by my evil twin, Skippy.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 31 Mar 96 04:09:00
EID:46ca 207f2120
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE61FA
MH> This is interesting ... every point of the argument is true, but the
MH> conclusion is wrong. Mackie is hoist on his own petard. Observe:
MH> He's quite right to say that true freedom cannot include the compulsion
MH> to do evil. The flip side of that, though, is that true freedom cannot
MH> include the compulsion to never to do evil.
MH> While it is logically possible that true freedom could lead to a Utopia
MH> IF every single free being chose good over evil 100 percent of the
MH> time, it is no less logically possible for free beings to choose evil
MH> and thus avert Utopia. Where Mackie goes wrong is in the assumption
MH> that because Utopia is a possible outcome, God -- rather than the moral
MH> agents making the choices -- is responsible if it doesn't come about.
MH> By his own reasoning, though, it is apparent that a God who
MH> *guaranteed* Utopia could do so only by offering something less than
MH> true freedom.
MH> And this brings the responsibility right back to you and me: The world
MH> we live in is the direct consequence of choices we make. God doesn't
MH> compel us to choose evil -- we often prefer evil to good.
Or in other words; the freedom to choose means nothing unless we can
actually CHOOSE it...a difference that makes no difference is no
difference. To say we have freedom to choose, but to prune the
possibilities where such choices are never made, is not freedom as I
understand the term. Well answered.
... Fly Heisenberg Air! Dunno where we are, but we're making good time.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 31 Mar 96 05:03:00
EID:dcbb 207f2860
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE6FEC
JH> And yet, I draw a complete blank on Branham. Do you (or anyone
JH> else reading this) have any biographical information on the man?
JH> I've heard the theology before from a variety of sources, but I'm
JH> unaware of it's origin (if it even can be traced back to a single
JH> individual).
I know there is a web page devoted to his stuff, but it is so tedious to
read through...let me see if I can find something more objective out
there. If need be, I'll take the bio off the web page.
... I walk the fine line between fantasy and science fiction.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: CHURHES
|Date: 31 Mar 96 05:05:00
EID:2249 207f28a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE7758
KD> Good reader. Blue Wave has a few features you might prefer if you spend
KD> all of your time on FIDO, but you'll like Speed for dealing with strange
KD> situations like using 2 BBSs to keep up with the same echo/conference.
If the situation doesn't improve at my new BBS, I might get it...
but they say they are going to change some things in their feed. I'm
going to give 'em a chance.
... I tried to drown my problems but they can swim.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 31 Mar 96 05:07:00
EID:e094 207f28e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE7A32
AS> Not necessarily, although acknowledging that there is no way
AS> to test where the spiritual history is at such a ganglion.
AS> But it does imply that miracles cluster together, or, if you
AS> like, reports of miracles cluster together. Which DOES seem
AS> to be the case. There are skeptical ages and there are ages
AS> which have reports of all manner of bizarreness.
MB> Reports of UFO's and crop circles also cluster. You have a point?
Wondering what the mechanism is. Is it just word of mouth, or is it some
sort of sociological cycle, or is it, in a few cases, reflecting
something real?
... Cthulhu: it's the surreal thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Elliott Furness
|Sub: HITLER'S RELIGION
|Date: 31 Mar 96 05:02:00
EID:5cfb 207f2840
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE7D2A
EF> The nazis planned to destroy Christianity in Germany, and started taking
EF> over churches to that end, forming the "National Reich Church."
EF> Some of it's 30 point program - and what made Hitler a non-Christian:
EF> "To exterminate irrevocably .... the strange and foreign Christian faiths
EF> imported into Germany imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800"
EF> "The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains, or priests"
EF> "The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and
EF> dissemination of the Bible in Germany"
EF> "The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes,
EF> Bibles, and pictures of saints"
EF> "On the day of its (the National Reich Churches) foundation, the
EF> Christian cross must be removed from all churches, cathedral, and chapels
EF> and must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika"
EF> Source: Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New
York:
EF> Touchstone, 1959. p.240
Thanks. We have tried to approach it in other ways....I pointed out the
absurdity of someone brought up a Catholic, killing himself without a
priest present to perform the rites of extreme unction. However, just
judging from past performance, I don't think Fred will take the hint.
Which is why I am saving this to disc. Thanks.
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:05:00
EID:54f6 208138a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE8234
MB> No, it isn't, Roger. According to Christian theology, all the
MB> good works in the world will not compensate for even one little
MB> sin, so Al is repudiating his own theology with the above
MB> statement. And, further, according to Al's theology, repentence
MB> alone is enough to save a person, even if (s)he dies a nanosecond
MB> after repentence takes place. So, Al's argument is specious, at
MB> best; compensatory behavior has nothing to do with his god's
MB> forgiveness.
You're right, I goofed. I answered Elliot back differently, (and Elliot,
if you are reading, I apologize.) but when I thought more about it, I
realized there were contradictions in what I was saying, as you rightly
pointed out. BUt evidently, it is a decision to be made IN TIME, not in
eternity. It's like admitting you did a crime after being tried,
convicted, and sent to prison. Evidently God holds a different standard
in time (when things change in a linear progression) and in eternity
(where we have no idea how the progression of events go). Let me just
say that the offense is against God as much as it is against Man
(whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me) and the
forgiveness, in God's eyes, must be asked while we are still alive.
But why? I don't have enough information to answer that.
... veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:09:00
EID:5b44 20813920
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE86EE
MB> I just ordered a book titled _Who Really Wrote the New Testament_ by
MB> Burton Mack (he's one of those heretics that the fundies love to
MB> bad-mouth, which puts him firmly in my to-read list). It'll be
MB> interesting to see what he has to say about the book of John, since
MB> it's touted to heavily in these-here parts as having been written by
MB> the disciple whose name it bears.
AS> Good. Let me know what he has to say, I would be curious if he has
AS> anything to say that hasn't been said ten thousand times before.
AS> Maybe he'll be at the library...I LOVE reading books that disagree
AS> with me.
AS> (The name sounds familiar, but I think I've only read excerpts.)
MB> He wrote _The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q and Christian Origins. He's
MB> one of Mikey's favorite biblical writers to bad-mouth.
None of his books were un-checked out, but I found some other books that
are of interest. I'm now halfway through...maybe a little more...of
RESCUING THE BIBLE FROM FUNDAMENTALISM, by Spong.
... Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical. Virgins are.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. Mackenzie
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 01 Apr 96 07:02:00
EID:bd1e 20813840
MSGID: 1:116/19 03BE8C66
AS> Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together. Witness the
AS>birth of the new Nazi party.
KM> Yes, but a very stupid and confused one.
The new Nutsy party?
... No, Taco Bell is NOT the Mexican telephone company!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: DOUBLE FEATURES.
|Date: 01 Apr 96 08:17:18
EID:eb73 20814220
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 0b63936f
On (30 Mar 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Judith Bandsma <=-
MB> In that case, I don't know why you're turning to Dr. Leipzig
MB> for suggestions.
JB> Well, he's actually been there for one thing. From what I understand,
JB> he has at least one small daughter so I thought maybe he could make
JB> some
JB> recommendations from what he would want HIS kids to see.
I should have put a smiley on my message. Herr Leipzig is
the original party animal, if we are to believe his posts
here. Sorry. It was a joke.
... 666.1 - Bugfix of the beast.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 01 Apr 96 09:28:19
EID:68a8 20814b80
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 3d8f6b40
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 315d9498
On (30 Mar 96) David Worrell wrote to All...
DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert Sykes:
DW> NS>> Millions of kids believe in Santa Claus. That doesn't mean he's
DW> NS>> real (Sorry to tell you if you didn't know.) It doesn't matter
DW> NS>> how many people believe in something, that doesn't make it real.
JG> But Santa Claus DOES exist. I see him in malls, and in tv shows.
JG> Maybe he isnt a specific individual that rides through the skies
JG> in a sleigh pulled by 8 tiny reindeer. But he certainly exists in
JG> the hearts and minds of millions of people.
JG> YES VIRGINIA THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS !!!
DW> The fundy just shot himself in the foot again. I wonder if he'll
DW> notice?
The only way he'd notice is if he had a leg to stand on. . . .
... And god said, "I meant a Bud Light!!!"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 01 Apr 96 10:24:00
EID:883b 20815300
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 acc5960d
REPLY: 1:116/19 0361A9E2
On (30 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Rob Burcham...
AS> Nothing is more depressing than to think MAN is the crown of creation.
RB> Does 'the most advanced intellect' equal 'the crown of creation'?
RB> When you compare an industrialized human's life with a dolphin's
RB> for instance, is the quality of the human's life better? We can
RB> barely imagine the freedom a dolphin has (assuming it can evade
RB> the tuna nets).
AS> That's a legitimate question...is smarter better? There is no way
to
AS> answer that. But on the other hand, man is at the top of the food
AS> chain in the sense that very few predators have a chance against
AS> him, even the largest and most massive, and that he himself is his
AS> own worst enemy, rather than any other animal. The only thing that
AS> seems capable of
AS> killing man off (granting no naturally occurring superflu) is man.
The tiniest of the tiny kill us off with disgusting regularity.
We are far from "the top of the food chain."
... "Scattered Showers, my ASS!"....Noah
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 01 Apr 96 10:26:13
EID:883b 20815340
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7f609856
REPLY: 1:116/19 0361ACE4
On (30 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> Yes. A human is a way for genes to reproduce. I've heard it
AS> before. But you have to establish some mechanism for such.
AS> Most behavior we deem altruistic does nothing to the
AS> spreading of genes. Giving shelter to the homeless...does
AS> that really aid the DNA?
Yes. We just might be preserving the DNA that produces another
Einstein in the next generation, for all we know.
AS> Or does it instead harm the gene pool by letting genes that
AS> are susceptible to alchoholism or schizophrenia have more a
AS> chance to proliferate?
Now you are generalizing (and caricturizing) the homeless. I
was homeless at one time, Al. Shame on you!
AS> I'm all for helping the homeless. But I don't think that's my
AS> DNA talking; I think it's me.
It's both.
... Religious people believe you haven't lived until you die.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE FIRE
|Date: 30 Mar 96 22:47:00
EID:ad0d 207eb5e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa3c
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "THE FIRE"
AS> with Steranko covers, etc. Sue Armstrong, I lost my copy of
AS> SCIENCE FICTION TODAY AND TOMORROW. I lost practically all my
AS> Poul Anderson.
SA> Arrgh! I didn't see the original post, and I'm just now wading
SA> through ancient packets (there'd be a hell of a lot more if my
SA> system wasn't conked for two weeks).
AS> Well, I've been to the used book stores quite a few times since then,
AS> shall we say...
Yeah, I can believe that. :)
JH> [Moment of silence]
JH> You can buy a new computer, but you have to BUILD a library.
SA> My sentiments exactly - and my deepest sympathies. Perhaps I'll
SA> see if the second-hand bookstore has something you might find
SA> interesting, to contribute to your library rebuilding. (I can't
SA> afford NEW books, so that's the best I can do.)
AS> I appreciate it, Sue, but don't go too far out of your way, and last
AS> I heard you were still looking for a decent job, so I'll feel guilty.
Oh, hell, I'm looking for _any_ work. And a gift given in
goodwill should never bring guilt.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... The Masters had left the Earth. They couldn't stand the barking.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 30 Mar 96 22:49:01
EID:5d20 207eb620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa3d
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "Staal and Ken:
Hitler wannabees"
KM>> The scourge was not seized, it was made. He did not drive
KM>> the men out of the temple with it, but rather the animals.
SA> So Jesus hated animals? Definitely NOT my kind of guy.
JH> Actually, if you overlook the odious practice of animal sacrifice,
JH> the Ol' Testiment is rather animal friendly. There are a number of
JH> prohibitions against cruelty that go beyond the animals economic
JH> value.
Yes; it probably contained the first animal welfare guidelines
written or codified anywhere, such as not muzzling plough-beasts
while they work, feeding one's animals before oneself, etc. And
YHWH, in the moral parable of Jonah, shows a bit of mercy when he
refuses to smite a city that offended the man by saying he would
not, since there were innocent children and beasts there.
Granted, most of these rules were utilitarian, but they likely
worked for the working-beasts as well as their masters.
JH> I'm not aware that the New Testiment addresses the issue, but I
JH> think it's a sweeping generalization to say that Jesus hated
JH> animals. But he clearly had a thing against dogs... and fig
JH> trees.
And pigs, though Jews consider pigs unclean, anyway. (Though I
still think Jesus could have just banished the daemons, and didn't
need to transfer them to a herd of swine, thereafter driving the
pigs over a cliff if he was oh-so-magical.)
SA> I've noticed that as far as Christianity goes, however,
SA> even during the "blessing of the animals" that some
SA> churches run each year, the animals are kept OUTside, and
SA> aren't allowed within the church itself.
JH> Down here they have the annual blessling of the Shrimp Feet.
JH> It's really quite a sight to see all those crustaceans waving
JH> their scaley little apendages above the water line in order to
JH> be blessed.
Shrimp's feet?
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... Oh, I know. You're KIDDING, right?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Ohhh.. Rock me, Nostradamus!
|Date: 30 Mar 96 22:55:02
EID:41d5 207eb6e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa3e
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "Ohhh.. Rock
me, Nostradamus!"
SA> The two "classes" can be considered the Normans and the
SA> Anglo-Saxons. Not that I think this is how he meant it, but
SA> Nossie was so vague, you can make him say virtually anything.
JH> Even if Nostradamus wasn't so vauge when he wrote it, his works
JH> are now removed from their original cultural context by almost
JH> 500 years.
That's true, too. It's sort of like trying to discern the satire
in Dante's "Inferno" without the notes, and without knowing who
the people mentioned are.
JH> It's like a 2496 version of Glenda Stocks trying to decode the
JH> lyrics to "Come Together".
[rolling eyes]
"He was predicting modular body parts!"
SA> If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
SA> Some day you might have to choose;
SA> When the class war rages on the factory floor,
SA> If you don't fight, you lose.
SA> --Redgum
JH> Clearly a reference to Casius Clay. (He was a fighter from the 20th
JH> century.)
[snicker] In the song that's quoted from, the person supposedly
saying those lines was, indeed, a former boxer turned to factory
work (and then laid off with no warning). :)
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... The greatest danger may be at the heart of the greatest beauty - Lo
Si
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: better than
|Date: 30 Mar 96 23:18:03
EID:8f2d 207eba40
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa3f
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "better than"
RB> Jesus isn't a better god than me
DC> Congradulations on your ascendancy to god-hood. Take your place
DC> over there with Preston Simpson. We're going to get a god group
DC> photo....
This is starting to remind me of a local sub one board around here
used to have, entitled:
Valley of the Self-Proclaimed Gods.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... Jafar, Jafar, he's our man, if he can't do it, GREAT!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 31 Mar 96 07:53:04
EID:a800 207f3ea0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa40
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "COINCIDENCE SEVEN"
-> On 03-07-96 03:19, J.j. Hitt got back to Sue Armstrong
Oh, bummer. The original must have came my way the first time my
system conked.
JH> conveince store) Cuban place that doesn't mess with menus.
JH> You'll eat what "Mama" wants you to eat. And they'll charge
JH> you what they want to charge you. (I shit you not, the
JH> price seems to depend on how well you are dressed and
JH> wether they have paid the light bill yet this month or
JH> not). The food is great though.
I swear I've heard of places like this before, but I simply cannot
think _where_.
DC> I always wanted to open a place like that! Seriously!
It does sound interesting, doesn't it?
DC> Let me know if it stays or has stayed open for over 3 years and
DC> I'll start my version of the same. After all, the best food is
DC> the freshed, and that varies widely from even day to day, let
DC> alone season to season...
DC> "Welcome to God Dan's Chinese Italian Mexican French English
DC> Restaurant. You have no choice but to like the meal or complain
DC> to the Board of Health. Haggis is today's only offaling...."
That's tempting fate though, isn't it? Never put "Board of
Health" and "Haggis" in the same breath; it might give people
ideas.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... I am Worf of Borg: No need to assimilate, I'll just crush you.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 31 Mar 96 08:07:05
EID:1489 207f40e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa41
A lone voice in the wilderness, Norbert mournfully howled out "Evidence"
MG> I'm afraid you look very foolish here. Get a simple biology text and
MG> study it. Then post what you know about evolution.
JG> And what genus does "fundy moron" come under in the evolutionary chart
JG> ?:-)
NS> I don't know the genus, but I know it is a cercaria.
I vote for _ Homo biblicus fundymoronosis_. Split off from the human
line a mere 2,000 years ago. Not fully speciated in the
biological sense (there hasn't been enough time for this) but as
cross-breeding becomes rarer, they may eventually warrant their
own genus, dropping the _Homo_ (which should make a great many of
them quite happy.)
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... "We shall overcome" - Sung at those who sung it 20 years ago
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Male Priests
|Date: 31 Mar 96 10:18:06
EID:5f54 207f5240
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa42
A lone voice in the wilderness, Lynda mournfully howled out "Male Priests"
LB> TEN REASONS WHY MEN SHOULD NOT BE ORDAINED
LB> From The MENNONITE REPORTER, "Fly on the newsprint" by Ivan Emke (with
LB> acknowledgement for inspiration to Rosemary Radford Ruether.)
LB> 1. Their physical build indicates that men are more suited to tasks
LB> such as picking turnips or de-horning cattle. It would indeed be
LB> "unnatural" for them to do other forms of work. How can we argue with
LB> the intended order that is instituted and enforced by nature?
[etc ...]
LB> 10. Men can still be involved in Church activities, without having to
LB> be ordained. They can still take up the offering, shovel the sidewalk,
LB> and maybe even lead the singing on Fathers' Day. In other words, by
LB> confining themselves to such traditional male roles, they can still
be
LB> vitally important in the life of the Church. Why should they feel left
LB> out?
ROFL! This reminds me of a vignette that the Heritage ministry
put out a few years ago, that still occasionally runs on Canadian
networks. The arguments are quite similar to that used by the
suffragettes in .. I think it was Alberta .. used in order to
garner the vote for women. They held a public meeting, and the
head of the suffragettes (forget her name) was speaking on "Why
MEN Shouldn't Have the Vote". It was quite successful, and
Alberta became the first province to give women the vote. (It
became federal law in 1918.) Chief amongst those was "Politics
would simply distract men from their jobs and farm labours".
--Wolfie
LB> Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
LB> ... Illustrate your Sermons! Wear "far side" ties.
LB> -!- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
LB> ! Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton.
LB> (1:109/601)
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... "If you do not follow Santa, you follow the Grinch." -- Hector Plasmic
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Buchanan
|Date: 31 Mar 96 11:23:07
EID:996e 207f5ae0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa43
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "Buchanan"
RM> Actually, "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", a weekly satirical look at the
RM> news, and a close relative of the Air Farce. (The title is a mix of
DC> That one I have never hear of! What night is it on? I get at least
DC> 2 Canadian channels and will have to give it a watch... Thanks!
"This Hour" is on the CBC; I'm not sure what night they're running
it on now, but it might be Wednesdays at 9 - best check your TV
guide, if you have one, or else if you watch Mr Bean Monday at
8:30, they might have an ad for it. I know they always have one
or two ads for "This Hour .." during the "Air Farce".
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... The CBC: Where an hour has 22 minutes.
--- GEcho 1.00
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 01 Apr 96 09:40:08
EID:f374 20814d00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa44
A lone voice in the wilderness, Judith mournfully howled out "FEED PROBLEMS,
OF COU"
DC> You where here a year ago... Must've missed that!
JB> DAN! Your memory can't be THAT bad. It was Staal calling Becke a
JB> b***h, in conjunction with his words to Gwenny that got the ball
JB> rolling on the misogynist thread.
It wasn't _quite_ a year ago; I remember seeing those posts, and I
didn't get here until mid to late April. And I _know_ I couldn't
have been here any earlier than April 10 (I didn't return from
overseas until that day.) After I returned, it took a couple of
weeks or so for me to find out this echo was carried on this
board.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... Taoists do it in cycles!!!
--- GEcho 1.00
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 01 Apr 96 09:45:09
EID:c49c 20814da0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa45
A lone voice in the wilderness, Roger mournfully howled out "GAY LOVE"
RH> Probably. Ask your insurance company about that. HMOs will soon be
RH> limiting the care you get based on a cost/benefit ratio.
AS> And will be promptly be sued. And will probably be made to pay, by
AS> the courts.
RH> Not at all. It's legal already, in Oregon and Canada.
^^^^^^
Since when? For one thing, I don't know of any HMO's ("Healthy
Members Only" - Pogo) here. They're not needed, unless one wants
some sort of private health insurance for foreign travel,
operations considered cosmetic surgery, dental work, etc. The
government bitches and whines about how expensive such programmes
are, yes, but they don't dare cut the actual number of procedures
that are paid for. I even had elective surgery which was covered
by OHIP; my cousin's daughter is finally strong enough for her
liver transplant, and that, too, will be covered (though it is a
good thing they have a good drug plan from their places of
employment.) I don't know about the rest of the provinces, but
when the national health care system came into effect in the late
60s, it was mandated that each province receiving federal transfer
funds must provide a certain amount of care.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... "Take off, you hoser!" - the Mackenzie Brothers
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 01 Apr 96 10:05:10
EID:6931 208150a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa46
A lone voice in the wilderness, DAVID mournfully howled out "Going Away"
DR> My place of employment is shutting down in about 11 months,
DR> so I will be out of a job. This is probably good news, since
DR> it leaves me free to do something I have often wanted to do:
[etc..]
DR> Not that it matters at all, but I've never done such a thing
DR> before, and I'll probably die from drowning. But what the
DR> fuck.
IOW, you're going walkabout. Good luck; the thought has struck me
yet again now that spring's here, but I'd probably just remain
stuck on this stupid continent.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... It's a thousand like Ned Kelly who'll hoist the flag of stars
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: the true nature of christ
|Date: 01 Apr 96 10:26:11
EID:f386 20815340
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 315ffa47
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dawn mournfully howled out "the true nature
of christ"
RS> It's a pity that I have had to expose them like this. The truth
RS> always hurts.
DK> You speak in the past tense with "I have had to expose". Please show
DK> your evidence that "all Christians are self-centered son of a bitches"
DK> and that "they do not worship their god for the sake and glory of the
DK> action".
The fact that the overwhelming majority of Christians, once they
find out that you are not of them, start chiming in with "You'll
be sorry!" and "You're going to hell!" can be taken as evidence
that they do not worship for the sake of worshipping, but merely
worship a god they are patently afraid of, in order to cover their
asses.
The fact that many Christians, even if they are not Young Earth
Creationists (and their various offshoots, like "scientific"
creationists), seem to feel that they, as CHristian worshippers,
are some sort of "chosen" ones and will benefit after death, as
well as insisting that humans are the pinnacle and ultimate form
of life on this planet, as well as the universe at large (and that
we look - or at least MEN look - exactly like the god they
worship.) This indicates a high degree of self-centredness, and
can be taken as evidence for such.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... SCAN V2.54 The [Fundy] virus found. Wanna hear about Jesus?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 01 Apr 96 08:14:03
EID:5b8c 208141c0
MSGID: 1:207/212 bf5baeb4
On (30 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Karen Davis...
JG> There is nothing wrong with grouping owls and bats in a classification
JG> called "airborne animals".
Yet it would not be a valuable grouping for science. Nor for any other
purpose than a kindergarten lesson in "what do these things have in
common."
JG> And you can also see that other planes HAVE crashed, you have to have
JG> some kind of "faith" that this one isnt going to crash on this
JG> particular trip.
You're playing the odds, in that case. Not faith. Or if it is faith, it
is not faith in any supernatural event or being.
JG> HUH ? That is up to the individual. Personally I find sex to be a very
JG> special activity. 1) It is one of the most pleasurable experiences.
So
JG> in my opinion I would prefer to save it only for that one very special
JG> person in my life. 2) The sexual act is also the act of procreation.
A
JG> physical union that produces a love child that the two participants
JG> will raise as a loving family.
JG> If you have sex with dozens of other people, then I don't think it is
JG> as special an act that could be saved for that special person.
THIS is reasonable. But not everybody feels the need to save the act.
Consider the typical behavior of a woman who was sexually abused as a
child - she is often very promiscuous.
There's a difference between WRONG and "inadvisable."
JG> I certainly would not judge that you be denied entrance into heaven.
JG> But what if you are on a road that isn't leading to heaven ? I simply
JG> believe that the teachings of Jesus are guideposts along that road for
JG> one thing. And the spirit of Jesus is that road. The spirit of truth.
JG> The road of truth leads to heaven. Jesus said you must be born again,
JG> what that means is that you have to be alive to the spiritual values
JG> of life. Love , peace, joy truth, faith and hope etc. I am not asking
JG> you to believe in a supernatural "being" I am asking you to believe
in
JG> the above spiritual values. THAT
JG> is the "spirit of god". Not some dude on a throne with a magic wand.
I choose to develop my understanding of the world in other ways. And
Christianity claims to be the ONLY way.
... Mr. Worf, fire at will. **ZAP!** Number One?!?
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: RABIES SHOTS ANYONE?
|Date: 01 Apr 96 06:35:00
EID:61e9 20813460
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> Ä Area: SCNet Chat
PS> How does one go about picking up this area? I'd love to start talking
PS> (read, removing his flesh with a sand blaster) with this "person."
At one time I had heard something about it being backboned on FIDO but I
can't believe it because we only see posts from SC in it. I could give you
the number for a couple local boards (they all carry it) but with your
status as a student, that probably wouldn't be feasible.
One nice thing about SCNet is that we have Neysa Dormish posting. That's
Gwenny's mother.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: isms
|Date: 02 Apr 96 00:39:00
EID:10ce aa009c90
MSGID: 1:206/2720 2e806c8a
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8950438A
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> -=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Michael Hardy <=-
> AB> no evil on his standards. We also tend to doubt the value of
> AB> repentence and forgiveness, or at least I do; I tend to favor fixing
> AB> the problem and preventing it from happening again.
> Then you probably don't understand the nature of
> repentance.
> Repentance is exactly that: Fixing the problem (to
> the extent that you
> can) and doing all in your power to keep it from
> happening again.
Perhaps I'm being idiosyncratic, but I tend to evaluate the meanings of
words by looking at the circumstances in which they are employed. Those
who are commonly described as having repented hardly end up doing much to
solve the problems they've already created, and at best pause briefly in
their practice of creating further problems. Perhaps they are not truly
repentant, but if so, then my point is that Christian demands for repentance
produce no visible beneficial results. If you want to phrase that as the
claim that demands for repentance are rarely met by repentance, that is
of no matter to me.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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|From: Nick Andre
|To: All
|Sub: Hi
|Date: 01 Apr 96 19:24:08
EID:aa23 20819b00
MSGID: 1:252/502 2e93e73c
TID: GE 1.11+
Hi...
I'm new to this echo.... :) Ok, let me start off by saying that I'm
against the evil form known as religion, or the bible. For one thing,
the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. I don't want to live my life
believing in something which has no proof that homosexuality is wrong, or
that implies it is wrong. The 1990's are a decade of change and I want
to live my world in it. I'm not homosexual, but I have friends who are.
Anyway
i'm rambling on, so ttyl all later... :)
* Origin: Quadracom on-line. (1:252/502)
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|From: Nick Andre
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Re: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Apr 96 19:45:57
EID:d387 20819da0
MSGID: 1:252/502 2e93e73d
TID: GE 1.11+
GM> March 26 Tuesday
GM>
GM>
GM> SEARCHING AND FINDING
GM>
GM> Read: Jeremiah 29:1-14
GM>
GM> You will seek Me and find Me,
GM> when you search for Me with
GM> all your heart.
GM> -Jeremiah 29:13
GM>
GM>
GM> God will make Himself known to anyone who sincerely desires to
GM> know the truth.
GM>
GM> Edith Schaeffer tells of a man in China who longed to know,
GM> worship, and serve the true God. The Lord honored that desire by
GM> leading him to find a torn page from a catechism that had been
GM> prepared by a missionary. On it was the question, "Are there more
GM> gods than one?" with the answer, "No, there is only one God."
GM> Another question was, "Should we worship idols?" there was only
the
GM> word "No," and the rest was torn off. But on the basis of those
GM> words he went home and destroyed his demon alters.
GM>
GM> Then his daughter became ill. "You've angered the demons," chided
GM> his neighbors. Hoping to get nearer to God, the man climbed to
a
GM> 14,000-foot mountain peak and asked God to heal his daughter.
GM> Returning home, he learned that her fever had left at the exact
time
GM> he had prayed. Later in a marketplace he found a copy of Mark's
GM> gospel. After reading it and learning about Jesus, he became a
GM> Christian.
GM>
GM> Do you really want to know God? Search for Him "with all your
GM> heart" (Jer. 29:13). Look in His Word and be quick to do what
He
GM> says. Put your trust in His Son. Then you'll truly know God.
GM> -Herbert Vander Lugt
GM>
GM>
GM> Man gropes his way through life's dark maze,
GM> To gods unknown he lifts his praise;
GM> But when he seeks to know God's Son,
GM> He finds in Him the Living One.
GM> -Dennis J. De Haan
GM>
GM> SEEK, AND YOU WILL FIND. -Matthew 7:7
GM>
GM>
GM> OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
GM> Michigan. Used by permission.
Lies, all lies...
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: Flood Stratum
|Date: 30 Mar 96 21:18:00
EID:2b45 207eaa40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
Somewhere there was a Subject on just where the Flood Evidence
has gone. This reply, on a totaly off the wall topic, seems
to fit the bill:
* Originally By: Vince Barmann
* Originally To: Dan Ceppa
* Originally Re: Canals And Ocean Levels.
* Original Area: Science(fido
* Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12
DC> just how many grooves are there on those old 33 1/3 RPM records?
DC> They were about 10 inches in diameter, if I remember them correctly.
If it's one of the Monty Python records -- Three. I'd love to have one
of those; it's be worth cash, I bet.
If you dig a hole, then dig another one beside it, then remove the dirt
wall from between them, how many holes have you got? One? Where did
the other one go? Two? I see only one.
================
Marty Leipzig, I think it was you that had a similar theory... Just
wanted to let you know that it's been confirmed for publication.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 30 Mar 96 21:39:00
EID:7b72 207eace0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-27-96 14:59, Jim Germiquet got back to J.j. Hitt
PS> come to bring a sword, not peace. Jesus cursed a fig tree,
PS> for crying out loud. Do these look like the actions of a
PS> nice guy?
JH> And my favorite: he called the Samaritan woman a bitch.
JG> I certainly don't remember Jesus calling a Samaritan woman a
JG> female dog. Perhaps once again you have mistranslated or taken
JG> his words out of context as usual.
Let's see what you said on another post:
JG> " How will you be determining what is "fact" except by
JG> the interpretation in ENGLISH of what was written in
JG> another language by an individual of different culture
JG> both in location AND in time?"
IOW, Jim, you don't have a clue as to what was said, only
what you are told by your masters. You have admitted that
you can't possibly know what your handlers are saying, as
you can't read the "originals".
Be happy in your belief, be happy in your self-inflicted lobotomy.
... Prayer: A request for annulment of the laws of the universe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 30 Mar 96 21:41:00
EID:37be 207ead20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 18:55, Martin Goldberg got back to Marty Leipzig
ML> Blessed^2 that he had some Beam.
MG> Are you trying to tell me that god drinks BOURBON????
Only if someone else buys.... Beer is fine with me.
Sincerely yours,
God Dan, keeper of the potables
... A man has to believe in something. I believe I'll have a beer.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 30 Mar 96 21:44:00
EID:f129 207ead80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-27-96 14:59, Jim Germiquet got back to Norbert Sykes
JG> But Santa Claus DOES exist. I see him in malls, and in tv shows.
Try pulling the beard off of one of them. Odds are, it will
come off.
Then, explain why he's on every street corner at the same time.
... Why don't you sue your brains for non-support?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: alt.fan.steve-winter
|Date: 30 Mar 96 21:49:00
EID:b86a 207eae20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 15:02, Ryan Shaw got back to All
RS> There is new newsgroup called alt.fan.steve-winter, I kid you not.
Let me guess... The only allowed poster is Stevie Winter...
... +Origin: DEAD OF WINTER Network! Snow jobs for Jeezeus!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 30 Mar 96 21:54:00
EID:7e6e 207eaec0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-28-96 04:01, David Worrell got back to Mark Barnett
MB>> Ok I will try and talk to him sunday and get back to you sunday
MB>> night but no promises he thinks I have fell in with the devil
MB>> because I talk to you all.
DW> I'm still waiting on this information, Mark.
He's got a lot of people to get back to on unanswered questions,
not just yours.
Care to place a bet on when he does?
... "I'm here to piss you off." David Worrell, et al
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 30 Mar 96 21:56:00
EID:383b 207eaf00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-28-96 16:23, Mark Barnett got back to Martin Goldberg
MG>bible requires. Where did the wter come from? Where did it go?
MB> You got me. I have no Ideal.
Actually, Mark, you not only do not have an Ideal, you
don't even have an idea, let alone a clue.
... Gilgamesh: A better written myth than Noah's Flood
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 30 Mar 96 22:00:00
EID:0adc 207eb000
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-27-96 14:59, Jim Germiquet got back to Norbert Sykes
JG> I was making an analogy.
You learned your "analogy" techniques from Mikey Hardy. Ask for
a refund on your tuition.
... "Hey, let's steal the hubcaps off this cart!": Jesus, age 17
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Anthony Grigor-scott
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 30 Mar 96 22:07:00
EID:d444 207eb0e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 00:20, Anthony Grigor-scott got back to Martin Goldberg
AG> like `Goldberg' almost certainly anti-Semitic. It is the self-styled
I'd tell you to eat shit an die, your fucking turd, but you
are that shit that is wiped off of the shoes that even
flaming fundies wouldn't step in.
Go sic him, Staal(s). Even you can show yourself to be better than
this piece of pond scum.
... Anthony Grigor-scott - An example of why some animals eat their young.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity const
|Date: 31 Mar 96 01:11:00
EID:174a 207f0960
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-27-96 14:59, Jim Germiquet got back to Norbert Sykes
NS> Uri Geller Fraud Award to Jim, who significantly failed in his
JG> I respectfully hand it to you for magic trick of producing something
JG> from nothing.
Can you say "Resurrection"?
... Can you show us where you parked your gods, Jim Germiquet?
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hardy's hard on, Hardly!
|Date: 31 Mar 96 17:41:00
EID:93b4 207f8d20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 12:15, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
MH> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
MH> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David
dc> Eat your hearts out, David, Fredric, Sean, Steve and David!
FR> Hey, it was an attempt to insult _ME_ by making me third string. You
Hang on a minute and let me get my violin....
FR> weren't the one who hurt his deeply-held occultism by shoving the
FR> truth in his face, it was _ME_!
Hmmm, perhaps I should have gotten out the drums and horn instead! ;)
... I Am A Charter Member Of Mikey Hardly's Truth Filter!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 31 Mar 96 17:44:00
EID:935c 207f8d80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 12:54, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> me is suspect. Thank your good buddy, Jimmy Staaled for having
JS> Hmmm...what's wrong with his origin line, Danno?
DC> It's quite simple, Staal: You've posted from there.
JS> Yeah...so? Not anymore, man...
I see that they are cleaning up the fetid mess you left behind. It's
about time, too.
... I am Staal of Borg. Can I, uhh, err, do something? I forgot....
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE PICK YER PO
|Date: 31 Mar 96 17:50:00
EID:594d 207f8e40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-28-96 21:25, Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa
ML>> 101, Dr. Marty Leipzig atheist and land raper.
DC> list what you _don't_ drink!
MG> Decent stuff....like Scotch.
Search for new keyboard.....
Why did I know you were going to say that.... It's a good think
that I'll drink either of them, though I prefer a good beer most
of the time!
... "It is _NOT_ my job to guess at what you are trying to say." JJ Hitt
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 31 Mar 96 17:54:00
EID:1a51 207f8ec0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 12:09, Fredric Rice got back to Jim Staal
js> ....It's been guite an adjustment for my mother also, I think I'm
FR> Hey! You claimed you weren't going to post here again. Doesn't your
FR> paper idol tell you cultists not to lie for your paper idol?
Speaking of paper idols... The latest edition of National Enquirer
has a picture of a 200 ft tall Jesus on it this week!
Aren't super market checkout lines fun!
... "False Christian Scum"? Bring on the "True Christian Scum"!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 31 Mar 96 17:56:00
EID:1a51 207f8f00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 13:43, Fredric Rice got back to All
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
Problemn is, just which Staal (lack of) personality using at
the time he wrote that?
... Which one of you is in possesion of the solitary Staal neuron today?
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 31 Mar 96 17:59:00
EID:9a95 207f8f60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 10:15, John Brawley got back to Sue Armstrong
JB> Sue, did you ever get my copy of Gentry's _Creation's_Tiny_Mystery_
JB> from George Rudzinski?
JB> (Hi, Lady!)
Fenzic, you did som'thin' right!
... "Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a great Pirate Roberts!"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Jim Staal can't leave. I
|Date: 31 Mar 96 18:04:00
EID:ae6b 207f9080
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-30-96 10:51, Steve Rose got back to Fredric Rice
SR> I can see Staalie getting confused over his myth-master's latest
SR> marching orders...and him sitting in the corner somewhere puching his
SR> own face in:
However, shouldn't that be:
Jim Staal>
SR> "Ow! But...I AM the truth!" **WHACK**
Brudder Jimmy>
SR> "Owww! But...I AM the truth!" **WHOMP**
Sister Zelda>
SR> "OUCH! But...but I AM the truth!" **WAMM!**
Add in more of the same for the rest of his "personalities" and
you will see more punches thrown than a hockey game.
... I am Staal of Borg. Can I, uhh, err, do something? I forgot....
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christia
|Date: 31 Mar 96 18:11:00
EID:07f2 207f9160
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 11:48, Fredric Rice got back to John Passaniti
> 75. Atheists regularly go door-to-door on Sunday mornings
> asking people not to go to church with them.
FR>
Same here! However, I never saw the original... Do you
have a copy of it that you can re-up?
Thanks!
... +Origin: MARIONETTE! NETWORK -- PUPPETS ON A STRINGFELLOW FOR JAYSUS!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Scholastic crawfish pie a
|Date: 31 Mar 96 18:32:00
EID:8fc4 207f9400
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 19:00, Martin Goldberg got back to Marty Leipzig
MG>>> Amen. Pass the Etouffe.
ML>> I've had my file of this gumbo.
MG>> Okra by me.
ML> Don't complain when some deep-fried crab fingers you.
MG> Shell I go on?
You may as well, as you just fell into the carapace...
... The Japanese favorite pizza toppings are shellfish and squid!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Scholastic crawfish pie a
|Date: 31 Mar 96 18:33:00
EID:8fc4 207f9420
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 19:31, Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa
MG>>> Amen. Pass the Etouffe.
ML>> I've had my file of this gumbo.
MG>> Okra by me.
DC> Cilantro try it some day myself.
MG> You'll roux the day you typed this.
It's all gravey to me...
... Garlic is to salad what insanity is to art.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: scott bear
|Date: 31 Mar 96 18:36:00
EID:8c6d 207f9480
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 16:16, Ryan Shaw got back to All
RS> Anyone heard from Scott Bear recently?
Not me... Nor Hector, either.
... Windows: Yesterday's software...TODAY!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 31 Mar 96 18:47:00
EID:3c5c 207f95e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-27-96 14:59, Jim Germiquet got back to David Worrell
JG>> When did you EVER see god kill anyone ?
DC>> I take it you have never read your bible.
JG> OBJECTION YOUR HONOR ...... hearsay evidence !
DW> You do realize you just shot yourself in the foot, don't you?
JG> I merely reiterate that any murders done on earth have been done by
JG> people CLAIMING it was gods will.
It's written in your bible, Jim. Deal with it, or discard it.
After all, the bible is the "true written word of (your) god (the
the murderer)". Or, are there just a "few" errors in there and
this is but another coverup?
... +Origin: Sack O' Shit Network: Lying for Jeezus!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Buchanan
|Date: 31 Mar 96 19:39:00
EID:00d6 207f9ce0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-28-96 20:28, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
RM> A CBC comedy show commented on it, very appropriately last night.
DC> The Royal Canadian Air Farce?
DC> Never heard of it...
SA> It's a comedy troupe - they've been around for years, mostly on
SA> CBC-Radio. They've got a TV show; around here it's on at 7:30
Ahhh, Sue... Please note that the name of the Air Farce
was never mentioned in the post I responded to!
Yes, I had seen it before. However, 22 Minutes, or another one
of your wierd programs was given as the source for that particular
satire. All I have to do is remember to buy some more video tapes
and get both of them on it, as well a the New Muppet Show and
Dinosaurs!
BTW, to fill on on the following tagline: What is Natasha's
last name? I'm not sure if it's ever mentioned.... You can
force me to re-watch the tapes I have. Well, OK, I'll do it!
... "It's Boris Badinov and Fearless Leader, Rocky!" B. J. Moose
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: CHRISTOLOGY
|Date: 31 Mar 96 19:53:00
EID:a7f0 207f9ea0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 22:03, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> She dumbed it down to help you. You should be grateful.
LW> Dan, if you want to continue to write poorly and have your message
LW> suffer as a consequence, that's your problem, not mine. However, I
It's a pity that you still haven't gotten the clue that you should
have received the first time around: You didn't understand it
but _OTHERS_ did. Could I interest you in a ball peen hammer
to tack that to your forehead? However, a concrete drill and
a lag bolt is probably more appropriate...
LW> defensiveness and submit some of your stuff to an English teacher or
a
LW> good editor. You might learn how to present your ideas better.
It's apparent that you never had one of the former let alone know one
of the later.
... Against logic there is no armour like ignorance!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: christology
|Date: 31 Mar 96 19:56:00
EID:a7f0 207f9f00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 22:10, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> No, Lee... You are losing sight of the metaphor of you slavishly
DC> hanging on to your old mythos when you can easily get rid of it.
LW> What _is_ my mythos, Dan? Please describe it for me. I've asked you
to
It's your incessant ignorance. Keep it up, as it's the only
way you can believe, besides the "Is Not"'s you spout about
the evidence that smacks you squarely in the face as you
perform Hector's Experiment.
... Your sacred cow is my next Double Whopper with cheese.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Cooperation
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:00:00
EID:b1a4 207fa000
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E37
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-28-96 22:27, Masochistic Maiden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> taken as whole, can describe the elephant, but only if they work
DC> in cooperation.
MM> Which is why I choose to discuss differences without becoming angry
MM> and insulting. If we learn to cooperate... we receive a greater view.
Try debating with someone that insists that only "their god" or
"their religion" is the only way. If you have an opposing viewpoint,
your tolerance will get quickly eroded.
Facts and evidence are the only way to view anything. You can
speculate on the rest, but it still remains as a speculation until
additional facts are gathered or old facts are shown to be wrong.
... "Live long, and perspire!": Vulcan, god of fire!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:13:00
EID:a968 207fa1a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E38
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 12:14, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
FR> Michael Hardly
MH> thin. So I'm going to liven it up with a little game.
dc> Gee, that's nice. Are you leaving and coming back under an alias?
FR> all going to be punished when he leaves, allright.
Just, what if: Mikey leaves and Jim Staaled-brain starts posting
again? Worse(????!!!!), what if Spin Ron makes a re-appearance?
Is it possible to be able to handle the levity of that occurrence?
It's a plot, I say, a plot to kill off atheists with laughter. :(
(Was my John Prewitt imitation passable?)
... Is this yours? Your dogma left it on my lawn..
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:17:00
EID:8ef5 207fa220
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E39
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 22:13, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
LW> instrument that could be patented. Detecting God is a matter of direct
LW> experience on the spiritual level. Scientific instruments are unable
to
DC> So, trot that god of your's out here...
LW> Out where? Into the material world?
Yeah, Lee. Into the _real world_. You know, the one that can
be show to exist.
DC> Now, demonstrate where you, a physical being, can interact with your
DC> god, a non-material entity of no consequence.
LW> Demonstrate how? Materially?
IOW, Lee, your god cannot be detected, anymore than a unicorn can.
LW> Dan, you're not listening. Let me know when you want to have a
LW> conversation.
If I wanted a meaningful conversion, I would not bother replying
to you. As it is, you are a great straight man for a lot of
great laughs. Keep up the good work!
... The flush you hear is what happens every time your chain is pulled.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Fred has daity constructs
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:25:00
EID:e7cd 207fa320
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E3A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-23-96 12:11, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
FR> Jim Germiquet
FR> Fredric Rice
JG> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from. tell me
dc> You been holding back on us, Fred?
FR> Hey, I should sue Jim for slander, claiming that I'm just as ignorant
FR> and superstitious as he is.
I've seen your messages. You spell almost as well as I do, though
Glodberg puts you to shame. However, knock on wood, I'm not
superstitious.
BTW, let me try out my new tagline on you. I kinda like it...
... The flush you hear is what happens every time your chain is pulled.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: RABIES SHOTS ANYONE?
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:31:00
EID:dcfc 207fa3e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E3B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 12:21, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: RABIES SHOTS ANYONE?
Could I get a double dose to protect me from Keller?
JB> And a couple more to start your day out right.
K> It's called SURRENDERING your ENTIRE LIFE..That means CAREER
Is re-troactive abortion still an alternative?
Get this MF in here. He deserves to be a part of the "Bunnies
and lights" educational forum.
... Ole's Smorgasbord: $9.95...Sign of the Feast.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Some Humor
|Date: 01 Apr 96 08:51:00
EID:c724 20814660
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E3C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-29-96 18:39, Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> your mentioning the Rabbis brought it to mind. But in the world
DC> of religion, it could be almost any of them. 8-)
MG> Not to be outdone....
MG> with other cinematic devices and a deep voice says "FUNNY YOU SHOULD
MG> MENTION THAT....."
Thanks, Martin! I forwarded that back to Sam...
... "Gravity was invented by Newton.": Jesse Hornbacher
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: Harvest Moon Eclipse
|Date: 01 Apr 96 08:55:00
EID:e355 208146e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89530E3D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
* Originally By: Richard Clark
* Originally To: All
* Originally Re: Harvest Moon Eclipse
* Original Area: Science(fido
* Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12
> MORE MOON & SKY EVENTS <
(TIMES are Eastern DAYLIGHT Time zone unless otherwise noted.)
There are THIRTEEN full moons in 1996. In the Eastern DAYLIGHT Time
zone there will be two full moons in the month of JUNE. (Areas east
of the Atlantic time zone will have two full moons in July.)
> 1Jun96 4:48pmEDT First full June moon: "Rose Moon".
>20Jun96 10:24pmEDT Mid-Summer-Night (summer solstice)
>30Jun96 11:59pmEDT Second full June moon: "Strawberry Moon".
>12Sep96 7:09pm Astronomical NEW MOON (sun & moon on same longitude)
>13Sep96 Calendrical new moon, 1st day of lunar month
>13Sep96 ROSH HASHANAH (Jewish civil new year) begins at SUNSET JST)
>22Sep96 AUTUMN EQUINOX at about sunset U.T. (6pm Universal Time)
>22Sep96 YOM KIPPUR (Jewish "Day of Atonement" begins at sunset)
> 2:00pm Eastern DAYLIGHT Time (astronomical end of summer)
Based on information by the historian Josephus, king Herod died
after the lunar eclipse in March 4bc, but before the Passover at the
next full moon in April 4bc. That tends to fix the date of the birth
of Christ in early Autumn 5BC. If that is correct, Autumn 1996 marks
the completion of 2000 years since the birth of Christ, and also the
completion of 6000 years since the time of the creation, presumed
to be 4000 years before Christ's birth. Therefore Autumn 1996 would
be the beginning of the (7th) "Sabbath" MILLENIUM, "the Lord's day".
Whether or not that time-frame is correct, one thing is for certain:
the time of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ is getting CLOSER!
>26Sep96 HARVEST MOON ECLIPSE Thursday night (Eastern Daylight Time)
> 7:27pm EDT sunset - 7:16pm EDT moonrise
> 8:12pm Begin Penumbral phase
> 9:12pm Begin Umbral phase (MAIN shadow starts to blot out moon)
> 10:19pm Begin TOTALITY phase (Totally in main planet shadow)
>* Saturn at BRIGHTEST, located nearly directly below darkened moon.
> 10:54pm MIDDLE TOTALITY phase (Magnitude 1.24)
> 11:29pm End Totality phase (planet shadow begins uncovering moon)
>27Apr96 Eclipse continues:
> 12:36am End Umbral phase (main planet shadow gone)
> 1:36am End Penumbral phase (End of Eclipse)
>27Sep96 SUCCOTH/Tabernacles "feast of ingathering" begins at sunset
>12Oct96 (Another partial solar eclipse not visible in U.S.A.)
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with us all. Amen. --Richard
-!- TMail v1.31.5
! Origin: MultiSystem * Cincinnati, OH * 513-231-7013 * (1:108/205)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Ducks?
|Date: 31 Mar 96 12:58:32
EID:9d5d 207f6740
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315fd598
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 315c387a
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Sue Armstrong said "Ducks?" to Jim Germiquet, adding:
SA> it. Then the big cheese would come and stand closest to the car
SA> while I got more ready to toss out. Why they'd start deferring to
SA> pigeons, though, is a mystery.
You will pardon my cynicism, but the first thing that went
through my mind when I read it was that somebody tossed out some
poison food, and the gulls now wait to eat the surviving pigeons
later. Gulls are too well armed, too much larger, and too aggressive
to defer to pigeons without some sort of external intervention in
play.
Later, you say to Fredric Rice, RE Tammy Faye:
SA> Her co-host is quite overtly homosexual.
SA> Looks like her "ideals" flew out the window as soon as the rent
SA> was due, considering that the Bakkers were amongst the
SA> "hummasixual" bashing crowd in their heyday.
Perhaps Jim got outed whilst in.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD-DAMNED
|Date: 31 Mar 96 13:37:15
EID:82ef 207f6ca0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315fd599
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Judith Bandsma said "A FAIR & JUST GOD-DAMNED" to Don Martin, adding:
ML> Gedankenexperiment #1: A psychopath has broken into your home,
ML> intent on stealing its tires.
DM> Silly wabbit--the tires are on the OUTSIDE.
JB> So he's a fundy psychopath! You know they all get things inside out.
Sure, but I keep hoping he'll NOTICE the tires on the way in.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 01 Apr 96 02:41:49
EID:f2f8 20811520
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315fd59a
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
T'other day we got a catalogue. Actually, we seem to get two or
three of the things daily, but this one was a little different.
"Things You Never Knew Existed" the cover proclaimed, with the
subtitle "and other items you can't possibly live without." I
suppose it was the subtitle that caught my interest, being one who
finds it very possible to live without all sorts of things that
others regard as essential. I started leafing through it.
In seconds, I was back in my childhood, looking at stuff I
yearned for when I was in the fourth and fifth grades--tasteless
stuff, horrid stuff, fake stuff, like whoopie cushions, joy
buzzers, and the funny little thing that, when put in one's mouth,
was supposed to make it possible to "throw the voice".
"I'll be damned!" I exclaimed to my wife, "this thing reads just
like an old Johnson Smith catalogue!"
"What's a Johnson Smith catalogue," she wondered. Ann did not
grow up on the same side of the tracks--or even of the continent--as
I did, and she was certainly never a little boy to whom a squirting
nickel was a treasure beyond price.
"Cheapo novelty stuff for kids," I replied, "carbide cannons,
practical jokes, magic tricks, marked cards, two-headed coins: that
sort of stuff. We used to send for them from little classifieds at
the rear of Popular Science. The prices were cheap, but usually
about ten cents more than we could afford. So was the
catalogue--cheap. Newsprint, smeary black ink, lots of type and
crude line drawings--always the same ones." The drawing for the
ventriloquist device showed a delivery man looking bewilderdly at a
trunk, from which emanated the exclamations, "LET ME OUT!", "HELP!",
and "GET ME OUTTA HERE!" while a small boy, with strangely puckered
lips, stood knowingly at one side.
I read on, finding more stuff with the ten-year-old mind in
mind: fake cut fingers, realistic feet (in real pantlegs) that could
be dangled from the trunk of a car, and the world's smallest
harmonica. It was when I found the mold for making jello in the form
of a strikingly detailed, life-sized human brain that I was driven
to look at the return address on the book.
"Jesus, Ann, it IS a Johnson Smith catalogue. Sometime during
the past half century, they appear to have discovered cheap color
printing!"
This company, they indicate with pride on the cover, has been
around since 1914, and over the years they have never developed any
taste--they know where the money is to be made. Ya wanna clock that
looks like a cat with moving eyeballs and pendulum tail? They got
it! Or mebbe ya wanna 'larm clock that sports an Apache AH-64
helicopter: it awakens you with whirling rotors, flashing lights,
and gunfire sound effects. They got it! You want an original lava
light? They got it! And much, much more.
They have branched out since the days of my youth. They always
pitched to the gullible--ten-year-olds really do believe that they
can learn to throw their voices--and to those who would prey upon the
gullibility of others: squirting coins and joy buzzers invite one to
violate trust. They have gone a step further than those trifles:
amongst the ordinary schlock, there are now things like "Formula for
successful prayer", "Lord's Prayer Cross", UFO books, "Black
Helicopters over America" (a book), "Talking Horoscope Alarm Clock"
(which must be seen to be believed), The "Alien Autopsy" video,
"Magnetic Copper Bracelet" and other health aids, etc., etc., etc.
The whole thing is hilarious, and they are proud of it. You will
be happy to know that the March of Progress has not left Johnson
Smith behind--they now have an _electric_ whoopie cushion.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 01 Apr 96 11:41:31
EID:abe8 20815d20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 160026f3
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 649ade87
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to George Mooth:
JJH> Skywalker Wavespell
JJH> Moreover, a substantially warmer climatic cycle will commence
JJH> into full flower in the Northern Hemisphere. Meanwhile, in the
JJH> Southern Hemisphere, there will also be an increase in the amount
JJH> of light as well as an increase in the quantity of cosmic
JJH> radiation that is let in by the Earth's Ionosphere (upper
JJH> atmosphere). These events are occurring because the Earth is now
JJH> preparing for the great equinox that will transpire in the midst
JJH> of the Solar or ninth moon of this White Electric Wizard Haab.
±±±±±±Ü ±±±±±±Ü ±±±±±±±±Ü ±±±±±±Ü ±±Ü ±±Ü ±±Ü ±±Ü
±±Ûß±±Û ±±Ûß±±Û ßß±±Ûßßß ±±Ûßßßß ±±Û ±±Û ±±Û ±±Û
±±±±±±Û ±±Û ±±Û ±±Û ±±±±Ü ±±Û ±±Û ±±Û ±±Û
±±Û±±Ûß ±±Û ±±Û ±±Û ±±Ûßß ±±Û ßß ßß ßß
±±Û ±±Û ±±±±±±Û ±±Û ±±Û ±±±±±±Ü ±±Ü ±±Ü ±±Ü
ßß ßß ßßßßßß ßß ßß ßßßßßß ßß ßß ßß
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 01 Apr 96 11:42:03
EID:ae5e 20815d40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 160026f4
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Lynda Bustilloz:
JG> I am just a man, I cannot heal myself, I can only reach out to the
JG> true physician.
*** BAM!!! ***
Too bad your 'one true physician' had a 12-gauge pointed up your fundy ass.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 01 Apr 96 11:40:08
EID:4fd1 20815d00
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 160026f2
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 315fd59a
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Don Martin wrote in a message to All:
DM> The whole thing is hilarious, and they are proud of it. You
DM> will be happy to know that the March of Progress has not left
DM> Johnson Smith behind--they now have an _electric_ whoopie cushion.
I still have a pair of 'X-Ray Specs' floating around somewhere. Wonder
if it is worth anything?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: CLAIMS OF DEITY CONSTRUCT
|Date: 01 Apr 96 16:40:49
EID:e8ff 20818500
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31601ae6
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 ae4241ea
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Marilyn Burge said "CLAIMS OF DEITY CONSTRUCT" to Thomas Biniasz,
adding:
TB> P.S. I really don't expect you to answer this because you
TB> have no facts only Public schooling lies, you have not
TB> reseachered anything on your own ... have you! :)
MB> I hope he comes down on you like a ton of bricks! You're talking
MB> to a DOCTOR, you ninny! Whatever he says, you have it coming.
MB> It never hurts to read an echo long enough to find out who's who
MB> before posting. It tends to give one less opportunity to make a
MB> fool of oneself.
Good advice, but who are we to stand between a fool and
his god-given calling?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:01:35
EID:2c79 20818820
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31601ae7
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 315d94c6
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
David Worrell said "Miracles: quotes" to Don Martin,
adding:
PS>> Since you mention these "greatest minds" and their postulates,
PS>> present some of them.
DM> Newton. When Newton was not busy doing other things, he
DM> was a religious nut. He DID keep the two realms pretty
DM> separate in his mind, though.
DM> Or did you want him to present some of the postulates?
DW> I think the point was to see if Carr could name any of them, even one
DW> as obvious as Newton. Does he know that "some of the greatest minds"
DW> were also Christian from his own research, or is it just something he
DW> was told?
DW> If he was unable to name any of them, all he has to do is wait til he
DW> sees your message, and then plagiarise.
Then watch us get a list that includes Newton and Gish,
locked in strange embrace.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:06:49
EID:4196 208188c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31601ae8
REPLY: 1:252/107 315d9cc5
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Selena Kerr said "The end?" to Don Martin,
adding:
SK> Cool.. so I guess now that I am talking to you I can use my charms to
SK> persuade you not to do it! (:
DM> From what I have seen so far, your charms are not
DM> sufficient to lure a sex-starved hermit three inches off a
DM> rock ledge, but Worrell is pretty desperate (engineers often
DM> are), so we shall have to await developments.
SK> Oh how nice of you to say so. How are you so sure
SK> anyway.
By the evidence of the way your mind works, as
demonstrated by your posts.
SK> I haven't
SK> tried to charm anyone here yet.
And you are succeeding splendidly.
SK> in fact I have just been talking.. or
SK> yelling at people who think I am crazy or stupid or whatever..
A number doubtless limited to those who read your stuff.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Infanticide for Fun and P
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:10:02
EID:52fb 20818940
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31601ae9
REPLY: 1:116/19 041A736E
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Al Schroeder said "Infanticide for Fun and P" to Don Martin,
adding:
AS> Well, but Don...IF you regard the fetus as a human being, then it
AS> would only take four years to equal the amount of Jews killed in the
AS> Holocaust.
DM> What difference does THAT make? I was responding to your
DM> "TINY fraction" stuff--the rate, not the absolute numbers.
DM> It remains quite true that the RATE of abortions in this
DM> country is a tiny fraction of the population (1/173, or, if
DM> you prefer percentages, 0.57%). You wanted to look at
DM> statistics, you introduced the terms for the looking: you
DM> get to remain within those terms.
AS> Okay. And the rates of infanticide of 19th century England were what
AS> per cent of the population? You said in the institutions it was 90%.
AS> Do you know what the rate of infanticide for the country was, compared
AS> to .57%?
No. It has been nearly a quarter century since I read
the article in question, and I refer you to it (as I did
initially) for details.
DM> I do not regard the fetus as a legal person and
DM> therefore do not consider abortion murder. I DO regard the
DM> newborn as a legal person, and so consider infanticide to be
DM> murder. Not that I would send some poor, 18th century
DM> housemaid to the gallows for committing it, but the fact
DM> remains that abortion, nasty though it may be, is certainly
DM> a lesser evil.
AS> Okay. Just curious. I understand it's the law of the land. But why do
AS> you not regard the fetus as a person?
Because it _is_ the law of the land. "Person" is a legal
term, one crucial to the definition of "murder", another
legal term. Until the law is changed in this regard, I see
no need to go further. The opponents of abortion are at
liberty to make a case to get my vote for changing that law,
and I have often invited them to do so, but so far all I
have seen from them is theology or shotgun persuasions.
DM> This was not, repeat NOT, a prescription. Gin was ladled
DM> down the throats of unwanted kids with the intention of
DM> killing off the kids.
AS> Now I'm REALLY curious here, Don. How do you know that?
By holding the doctorate in 18th century British
literature. One picks up all sorts of stuff along the way.
AS> kids. How do you know that was the intent? Not doubting that it WAS
in
AS> some cases, human sickos being what they are, but surely they were not
AS> suicidal to put on the death certificate, "gin poured down throat to
AS> make baby die".
Of course not. They were mean-spirited, not stupid.
Diagnoses, and reporting procedures in the 18th century were
not as detailed as they are today: "it just died," was
sufficient and perfectly true for all sorts of infants
during a time when the population of all the great cities
would have declined without a constant immigration from the
hinterlands.
DM> The institutions had that rate. The general mortality
DM> rate was lower, but then that one would include kids that
DM> people wanted.
AS> Right. That sounds more reasonable. And it DOES sound like sicko
AS> institutions, all right.
While the English baby-farming system was pretty sick
the French really was not. Their problem was that they had
not yet solved the problem of nourishing neonates without
human lactation. They simply did not have enough wet nurses
and the kids starved to death. Baby farming _was_ an attempt
to solve this particular problem; the only qualification
imposed was lactation. They simply didn't reckon upon the
fact that maternal types can be opportunistic, too, and the
10 shilling fee was a nice chunk of money--that was the
prevailing weekly wage for tradesmen (bricklayers and
whatnot) throughout the 18th century. Such a little bonus
every month or so can make all the difference in the family
budget.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:34:27
EID:b4fa 20818c40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31601aea
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Still not satisfied that he had managed to convince everyone
present of his profound asininity, Jim Germiquet said
"AVOIDING THE QUESTION" to Don Martin, adding:
JG> Easy, Obesity is real, Obesity is hell ...therefore Hell is real !
JB> Fathead!
JG> I really don't know why you stoop to name calling to avoid conceding
JG> when a point has been made.
DM> What is the most fun about you is your arrogant
DM> assumption that you have MADE some sort of point, when all
DM> you have done is utter a fallacious syllogism (excluded
DM> middle) on the pattern of "God is love: love is blind:: Ray
DM> Charles is God", one formerly suspected in a weak attempt at
DM> humor. With the above, you demonstrate that you take your
DM> silliness (and yourself) seriously.
JG> Are you being deliberately obtuse. or do you really have difficulty
of
JG> comprehending the concept of "hell".
JG> War is HELL
JG> Pain is HELL
JG> Drugs addiction is HELL
JG> Alcoholism is HELL
JG> Depression is HELL
Are you being deliberately obtuse, or do you really have
difficulty comprehending the concept of "metaphor"?
JG> If you can only understand hell as a pit of fire and brimstone with
JG> a little red guy with horns and a pitchfork standing watch, then
Never having seen any evidence whatsoever for "hell"
apart from metaphor and human imagination (the same thing,
really), I do _not_ so understand the term. Why would you
suppose that any sane person would understand it the way
you suggest?
JG> I suppose you might as well stop reading my messages because obviously
JG> you will be unable to comprehend what I am saying. Just add me to your
JG> twit list and save us both some time, okay ?
Your arrogant assumtion of the day seems to be that your
discourse is so refined and complex that mere mortals are
too limited to understand it.
I only twit those insufficiently ridiculous to become
the butt of a joke. Since you are flagrantly ridiculous, you
stand in little danger of that.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims Of Deity Construct
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:45:00
EID:17fd 20818da0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31601aeb
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Germiquet said "Claims Of Deity Construct" to David Johnston,
adding:
JG> I believe that man also has a "spiritual"
JG> existence as well as a physical one.
And upon what do you base this charming belief?
JG> I am not sure of the process of this spiritual existence, but we
JG> seem to have evolved into a creature that can understand such non
JG> physical values as love, truth, peace, forgiveness, good and evil.
The use of reason and empathy is sufficient to explain
our understanding (and even practice) of these abstractions;
once you have established a basis in fact for a "spiritual"
existence for man, please go on to demonstrate how this
existence yields a better understanding of these things than
does reason and empathy.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: One for the FAQ
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:51:33
EID:2c10 20818e60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31601aec
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Germiquet said "Tennessee Commandments" to Dan Ceppa,
adding:
JG> No I do NOT have to back up my opinions with facts. They are MY
JG> opinions.
And that makes them very special.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Miracles: quotes
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:55:50
EID:7195 20818ee0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31601aed
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 315f328b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Preston Simpson said "Miracles: quotes" to Don Martin,
adding:
PS> Since you mention these "greatest minds" and their postulates, present
PS> some of them.
DM> Newton. When Newton was not busy doing other things, he
DM> was a religious nut. He DID keep the two realms pretty
DM> separate in his mind, though.
PS> This I knew. Newton was a neat guy as far as the maths and physics
PS> went, but he was a bit somber as a religious freak.
DM> Or did you want him to present some of the postulates?
PS> I was really hoping for the postulates.
There is wan hope, indeed. To present, one must first
comprehend, and I fear that is rather beyond the fundy you
address.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Warts
|Date: 01 Apr 96 11:53:17
EID:d4ca 20815ea0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31606c6b
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 649bbb56
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and J.J. were killing time yakking about Warts:
AS>> Anybody who would cut warts off in public is definitely
AS>> pretty tough, I agree...
MM>> Not touch, just cheap. I didn't want Doctor bills for
MM>> something I could do myself.
LB> Sure, but -- in a public restaurant? I have to confess - -
LB> I'm still gagging over that one!
JH> If and when we have the Grand HolySmoke Get-Together Diner,
JH> MM will get a separate table. We'll set up a tin can and
JH> string telephone so she can join in on the conversation.
I say we kill two birds with one stone, and seat her with David Worrell.
When he starts attacking the dessert tray (and it starts attacking him back)
he'll be too busy to notice what she's up to. :)
"He who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed
by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in
loving himself better than all."
[Samuel Taylor Coleridge]
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Coincide: What you do when it starts to rain...
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 01 Apr 96 12:05:47
EID:a39d 208160a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31606c6c
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 648e47ba
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jesse and Martin were killing time yakking about drool game:
JJ> Is there a pending question?
MG> Why do you believe that my giving my wife a gift at the end of the
MG> year constitutes practicing religion.
LOL!
MG> That one is still outstanding.
And resurrected just in time for Easter!
===
"It is surely harmful to souls to make it
a heresy to believe what is proved."
[Galileo Galilei, "The Authority of
Scripture in Philosophical Controversies"]
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Humourous or profound remark or quotation pending.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: Congress bans Bible?
|Date: 02 Apr 96 02:04:22
EID:b9e5 20821080
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 160026f6
REPLY: 1:115/769.2 b8dcc637
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Bill Wolff wrote in a message to All:
BW> none-the-less congress did pass a law that outlaws the bible (not
BW> to mention a whole bunch of other "free speech")....
BW> I guess this also means that our Fredric can't use his colorful
BW> language anymore either. Bummer!
You are an asshole. Bummer.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 02 Apr 96 01:09:27
EID:0922 20820920
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31611eaf
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 315fd59a
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
All and Don were killing time yakking about Johnson Smith Catalogue:
DM> The whole thing is hilarious, and they are proud of it. You will
DM> be happy to know that the March of Progress has not left Johnson
DM> Smith behind--they now have an _electric_ whoopie cushion.
What, no address? You TEASE!
"It is surely harmful to souls to make it
a heresy to believe what is proved."
[Galileo Galilei, "The Authority of
Scripture in Philosophical Controversies"]
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ How does Michael Jackson pick his nose? From a catalog!
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:53:36
EID:6321 20825ea0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31611eb0
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Sue and Joanna were killing time yakking about URL!:
-> JA> good news is, I didn't ever get back on that medication.
-> Welcome to the real world, and congrats for beating the odds
-> without the meds. May the path of your life be long, straight, and
-> broad.
JA> Actually, I'm probably going back on the meds after all!:) I think
I
JA> do a lot better with them than without. Not going to get into that
JA> really. Just thought I'd add that to my list of reality checks.:)
Joanna -- now I will add MY congratulations to those of others here! Not
because I know whether or not you need to be on them, but because I was
disturbed that you weren't checking with your doctor to find out. I am
really happy that you sound like you are doing so well putting your life
back together.
"It is surely harmful to souls to make it
a heresy to believe what is proved."
[Galileo Galilei, "The Authority of
Scripture in Philosophical Controversies"]
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Once you know the rules you are free to break them
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 640/201
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: All
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 02 Apr 96 12:32:38
EID:abba 20826400
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31611eb1
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 314dc9d3
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 1 of 2...
On the 18th of March, I posted this message. Fido ate it. I know it went
at
least as far as the other local BBS which carries Holysmoke, but after that
it apparently disintegrated.
Last night, an earthquake struck my house. I was in a rather heated,
frustrating exchange with a fundamentalist who has been looking for a
reason -- any reason -- to declare that I am not a "true Christian".
The earthquake happened when he made a comment that was worthy of
serious contemplation. He said that in his observation, there was not
a single Christian that I liked. While that is not entirely true, I
have to admit that the overwhelming majority of those who publically
state their Christianity behave in ways that grate on my nerves -- by
assuming that they have special status worthy of respect, by assuming
that they, and they alone, are going to be able with a few short words,
to bring a nonbeliever to Christ, and by assuming that they are so
RIGHT that they can decide and tell me that I am "wrong" in my views
(and hinting ominously of dark and terrible things that await if I
don't fall into lock step behind them).
Now, in any other situation, there would be no difficulty -- if I
dislike the majority of the group with which I am affiliated, the only
honest and sensible thing to do is to leave the group. Suddenly, as I
mulled over last night's exchange, it became apparent that I have been
sliding into a situation where I am every bit as big a joke as
Grigor-Scott or Prewett, because like them, I have made the assumption
that I have a claim to the word Christian, in spite of overwhelming
evidence that my views do not co-incide with the majority, or even with
any significant minority. It seems gross absurdity to be be told
repeatedly that what I believe is not "correct" Christian theology, and
to still insist on any claim to the title.
I believe those who have told me this are sadly mistaken in their idea
of what Christ would have us do in return for His prescence in our
lives, but I can no longer argue whether or not their being mistaken
entitles them to the word "Christian." They have the numbers on their
side, and it is obviously I who have been mistaken in what is involved
in membership within the Christian Body.
To stay places the Body in jeopardy, or so I have been told,
countlessly, by those who would say that if I MUST hold divergent
views, I should at the least keep silent about them out of loyalty to
the faithful. I cannot do that -- I do not suffer hypocrisy lightly,
even less when I am the author of it. If the only way to avoid
damaging those who are Christians is to cease to be one, or cease to be
me, then I must choose the former. I believe it is what God would have
me do, rather than wear His Son's name falsely.
I have given considerable thought to this, and what it means for me.
Last night was simply the last straw on the back of a camel that has
grown increasingly overburdened for the last few weeks. I am not sure
that it means anything in regard to what I believe -- and what I don't
believe. But it does mean no longer belonging to that arena of
Christian life that is corporate, and that is something that I have
considered important to my expression of my faith. I read Kevin
McKenzie's account of his drop from the faith, and was grieved to read
that he felt no response. I have felt what I believe to be God's
response to this decision -- the same response he has always given --
"I gave you a mind, Lynda. Think it out carefully. What do YOU think
you should do?"
I can only say that I am doing this soberly, and that it is in God's
hands to decide whether or not He will accept my decision or not.
Either way, I have to choose what I think is best for all concerned.
I expect there will be those here who will crow that they KNEW I
wasn't a True Christian, and be very relieved not to have to deal with
me on their "team". There will also be those who read this with sorrow
(Al, I am deeply sorry for that). There will be some who claim it as a
"kill" and perhaps do a little victory dance, and I hope there will be
a few who realize that while this is no occasion for rejoicing, it does
not mean that I have changed in regards to who I am -- just in what I
call myself. And of course there will be many who simply don't care.
At any rate, I don't think this will make much difference in the
quality or style of my posts, or in what issues catch my attention. I
hope it will not change anything in regards to who I consider friend.
But I have tried where possible to be honest, even in this echo where
honesty is a landmine for the unwary, and I cannot in good conscience
be pointed to as an example of Christianity, when Christianity has made
it so clear that it does not want my kind within its ranks.
Lynda Bustilloz, March 18
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: ANIMAL ABORTIONS
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:19:00
EID:8276 20818a60
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
JG> According to OUR standards. You know when the wheel was invented it
JG> was the height of technological achievement. We take it for granted
I suppose you are going to now tell us you were there for that, too.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ANIMAL ABORTIONS
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:20:00
EID:b50f 20818a80
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
JG> then you are a female. Is that sexism ? or just pointing out a trait
JG> common to the disrespectful females of the human species.
I wonder if David would mind very much if we let him wait for his pie and
sent it to Jim instead?
Oh yes, and I just found this great recipe for a bran fiber crust.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 01 Apr 96 17:24:00
EID:283e 20818b00
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> Why can't you just admit you lied?
See above. We have you archived. It would be funny watching you try to
wiggle out of the corners you've painted yourself into if your ideas
weren't just plain sickening.
Oh, and you don't like my language. Fine...fuck off, dipshit.
... When you were born, did they quarantine the maternity ward?
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THUMB-SUCKING FUNDY
|Date: 02 Apr 96 07:41:00
EID:1af5 20823d20
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Styx Allen <=-
AS> ing women-and-children-is-a-humane-thing-to-do") know he is NOT in
AS> Kansas anymore.
Maybe we should start calling him Toto (as in the Swahili meaning of the
word )
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 02 Apr 96 07:55:00
EID:b224 20823ee0
-=> Quoting Jerry Gilbreath to Martin Goldberg <=-
JG> and several dating methods for the earth indicate an approximate age
JG> of about 20,000 years or less.
If this is so, please explain how we can see starlight that takes longer
than 20,000 years to get here.
BTW, 'the earth isn't as old as the rest of the universe' won't cut it if
you are using biblical reasoning for your age estimates since the bible
says
it was all created at once.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 02 Apr 96 07:59:00
EID:14ad 20823f60
-=> Quoting Joanna Amren to Sue Armstrong <=-
JA> Actually, I'm probably going back on the meds after all!:) I think
I
JA> do a lot better with them than without. Not going to get into that
JA> really. Just thought I'd add that to my list of reality checks.:)
Amazing what a few chemicals can do, isn't it? If you've learned nothing
else from HolySmoke, though, I do hope you will have learned the lesson
of asking questions and not spare your doctor from them either. Don't be
afraid to ask about side effects and for a med with less of them if the
one prescribed doesn't sound kosher to you. Also, don't be afraid to ask
your doctor to experiment and find the LOWEST possible effective dosage
for
you. The idea is for the meds to help you be the best you can possibly be,
not take over. (A lot like religion in that aspect )
... Tagline not found: Moderator deleted.
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE ON
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:04:00
EID:3745 20824080
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Marilyn Burge <=-
KD> Correct. I pass out boy scout stuff [and girl scout stuff] every year.
Well, at least Girl Scouts do not exclude gays and atheists. Not to say
that they don't still have their individual bigots on all issues but
National policy is that a leader's private life has nothing whatever to
do with a troop as long as the leader keeps it that way. And that's not
a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. Straight, religious leaders are just as
prohibited from bringing up their own lives/religions/sexual practices.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: DOUBLE FEATURES.
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:17:00
EID:d288 20824220
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Judith Bandsma <=-
ML> Probably not; although we could use the air support the next
ML> time we venture east.
Well, strange as this might sound, Mike's in Environmental Biology.
I don't think that's the kind of air support you'd need.
ML> Ms. Spontenaity. I'll wager she's got all her clothes laid out
ML> for the next year .
Close. She's got a 6 month calendar where she has her 'impulse' days marked.
So she can get a babysitter in time. And she REALLY doesn't see why I
laughed at her for that. I thought she was joking.
ML> Sheesh. Slip her a few 100 cc's of Orangeboom and have her
ML> relax a tad.
I'll have to plan that for the next time I see them.
ML> Hear, hear! I drive an old Harley (when I'm in country) and am
ML> about to purchase a Russian bike (a Ural) complete with
ML> sidecar (ex-military sort of contraption) for the princely sum
ML> of $400. I can hardly wait to see the reactions of the locals
ML> when I ride up to work on one of those.
Oh neat. That would make a great .gif...especially for the web page. Wait
till I tell Mike about that one. Jo will be cleaning up the drool for weeks.
... I'm weird, but around here it's barely noticable.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a C
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:35:00
EID:ce6f 20825c60
MSGID: 1:215/130 000db922
Hi Marilyn!
You've probably seen my other post to Mr. Rice by now as to why I say
Hitler wasn't a Christian. However, let me expand upon it a little.
In a message dated 03-31-96 Marilyn Burge wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> EF> True, with one exception: Hitler wasn't a Christian.
>
MB> He was a baptized Catholic who had the tacit approval of the Church
> in what he did.
Baptized and RAISED Catholic, as were many top Nazis. On July 20, 1933 the
Nazi government signed a concordat with the Vatican, which guaranteed
freedom of religion to the church. Yet less than a week later, the Nazis
broke the agreement by passing a sterilization law. Five days later the
Nazis took steps to dissolve the Catholic Youth League. Within a year the
leader of Catholic Action was murdered by nazis (in the June 20, 1934
purge) and scores of Catholic publications were suppressed. Nazi agents
even violated the sanctity of the confessional.
On March 14, 1937 the Pope issued an encyclical, "With Burning Sorrow."
In
it he blasted the Nazi regime charging it with "evasion" and "violation"
of the concordat. The Nazis, he said, spread "the tares of suspicion,
discord, hatred, calumny, of secret and fundamental hostility to Christ
and His Church." The Pope said he saw on "the horizon of Germany the
threatening storm clouds of destructive religious wars ... which have no
other aim than ... of extermination."(1)
MB> Without that approval, he never would have gotten
> away with what he did.
Well I don't know if I'd go that far. But as William Shirer says in his
definitive book on Nazi Germany, "Coming as it did at a moment when the
first excesses of the new regime in Germany had provoked world-wide
revulsion, the concordat undoubtedly lent the Hitler government much badly
needed prestige." (2)
MB>As much as it pains the Christians to admit
> it, he was a Christian, and was given pretty much full-rein by the
> Vatican.
Like I said to Mr. Rice, I used to think Hitler Christian too. But as much
as it pains me to admit, he surely wasn't. For instance, the Nazi Minister
for Church affairs, Dr. Hans Kerrl, said on 2/13/37: "The party stands on
the basis of Positive Christianity, and Positive Christianity IS National
Socialism ...National Socialism is the doing of God's will. Dr. Zoellner
and Count Galen [Catholic bishop of Muenster] have tried to make clear to
me that Christianity consists in faith in Christ as the Son of God. That
makes me laugh... No, Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostle's
Creed ... True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German
people are now called by the party and especially by the Fuehrer to a real
Christianity ... The Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation." (3)
But the smoking gun is the 30 point program for the National Reich Church.
Examples:
1. The national Reich Church of Germany categorically claims the exclusive
right and the exclusive power to control all churches within the borders
of the Reich: it declares these to be national churches of the German
Reich.
13. The National Reich Church demands immediate cessation of the
publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany ...
14. The National Reich Church declares that to it, and therefore to the
German nation, it has been decided that the Fuehrer's Mein Kampf is the
greatest of all documents...
18. The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes,
bibles, and pictures of saints.
19. On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf (to the German
nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the
altar a sword.
etc (4)
(1) Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York:
Touchstone, 1959. p.235
(2) Ibid. p. 234
(3) Ibid p. 239
(4) Ibid p. 240
Note: all above ellipses were contained in the source and as I found them.
Ciao.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:35:00
EID:22c4 20825c60
MSGID: 1:215/130 000db92b
In a message dated 03-30-96 Al Schroeder wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
AS> AS> Yes. But of course, free will means nothing if you
> AS> have nothing to turn TO. You don't have free will in a
> AS> narrow hall with one door.
>
> EF> But it isn't an either/or proposition. For instance if your god kn
> EF> future he knows, prior to his creation of each human, whether that
> EF> will _FREELY_ choose to obey or not. It would in no way deny free
> EF> God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would choose si
> EF> simply creates only those people who he knows will _freely_ choose
> EF> religiously correct path.
>
AS> Well, even granting that God's foreknowledge is absolute (which I am
> as sure as you seem to be) we are not an island.
Note my use of the word "if" as in " ...if your god knows the future..."
How does that give my statement the ring of certainty that you wish to
characterize it with?
AS>Sometimes the action
> a nonbeliever can influence a believer. (Virgil on Dante, for instan
> Or evil influence someone for the good--the disgust at the greed show
> the robber barons prompting others to write antitrust laws, for insta
If your god knows the future this is entirely irrelevant. He would know
this too.
AS> Besides, if God prunes the tree of probability where ONLY good people
> good actions will result, is there TRULY free will?
"Prunes the tree of probability?" Please. I said nothing of the kind. Once
again. "IF" your god knows the future, then he knows - PRIOR TO HIS
CREATING AN INDIVIDUAL - whether that person will sin. He need ONLY _not_
create that person - and all the others he knows will sin. God then only
creates those he KNOWS beforehand will FREELY choose not to sin. How does
that abrogate free will?
AS>If one cannot choose to become bad and
This has nothing to do with what I said. Under my scenario people CAN
choose to become bad. But they have chosen - freely - not to. God
supposedly knows who these individuals will be beforehand and creates only
them.
AS> it actually happen, then one is effectively kept from doing evil.
Not in my scenario. Now please, address what I have said - not what you
wish I had said.
>
> AS> As for
> AS> whether God knew beforehand, I'm not sure. Does God
> AS> only see one future,
> AS> narrowly defined, or does He see several possible
> AS> futures, depending on
> AS> our choices?
>
> EF> If he sees "several possible futures" then obviously he doesn't kn
> EF> will transpire and thus he is not omniscient. If he _does_ know wh
> EF> occur then the future must be set in stone. There is no way around
>
> It's amazing how much more "fundamenalist [sic]" nonbelievers are in
their
> objections than believers.
I am applying logic to the claims of believers and the logical
consequences that follow. I haven't a clue what your "fundamentalist"
crack is supposed to mean.
AS>Yes, Elliott, I am saying precisely that I
> not sure if God's omniscience applies to the occurance of everything
> happens in the future.
Omniscience means to have infinite awareness, understanding, and insight.
If your god's omniscience doesn't apply to everything then obviously he
isn't omniscient.
Extended analogy by C.S. Lewis omitted.
AS> No way around this? Are you sure? Only if you simplify the problem
> it is unrecognizable.
Hardly. Rather there is only some way around it if you are given license
to toy with the meaning of words like "omniscience."
RH> And why cannot we repent AFTER death, when we have the information we
RH> needed to make a better choice?
AS> And do what?
AS> If Hitler repents after death, does that help those
AS> he killed in life?
EF> How would it help them if Hitler repented 5 minutes before death? Yet
the
EF> way I understand it, your god _would_ accept Hitler's sincere
contrition
EF> at that point without regard to helping "those he killed in life".
AS> (A) Oftentimes people try to make amends at the last
AS> minute. I doubt if
AS> Hitler could, but for instance, many people beg for
AS> forgiveness from
AS> people they fought with all their lives, and so ease
AS> the spirit of those
AS> who remain after they die.
I don't see how this bears on your objection to Hitler repenting after
death (because it doesn't help those he killed in life).
AS> Yes, an action within time differs from a
AS> state in eternity, in the same sense that saying you
AS> know the answer to a
AS> test six weeks after the exam, but not at the time,
AS> does you little good.
The question is WHY couldn't he repent after death. You said "does that
help those he killed in life?" I said repenting 5 minutes before death
doesn't help those he killed either, but presumably your god would accept
his contrition. Your analogy doesn't address my question.
AS> The point is to learn your lessons within a certain
AS> time frame. Not after.
AS> Faith without works is dead, James said.
AS>
AS> Not that we are saved by works, but that works is the
AS> natural consequence of faith.
Except that isn't what the passages (James 2:20,24,26 and others) say.
AS> It's easy to say, "I
AS> love you." But if you never show affection otherwise,
AS> never see to your
AS> mate's needs, etc., it is a hollow boast.
False analogy. My question assumed a sincerely contrite Hitler. You didn't
respond to that eventuality.
AS> and as much as the offense
AS> is against people...people die. All the people
AS> Torquemada killed would be
AS> dust by now anyway. The one who remembers it, who is
AS> enraged by it,
AS> through whom any souls can survive is only by His
AS> agency, is God. It is HE
AS> who can maintain an eternal wrath...or an eternal
AS> forgiveness, and only
AS> He.
AS>So a confession to God, a sincere repentance [sic], does matter.
Which is what my hypothetical assumed.
AS> But if one
AS> voluntarily chooses that way, God takes them at their
AS> word...and the time
AS> to speak up is while we are alive.
Fine. Then you retract your original reasons for objecting to the
possibility of Hitler repenting after death?
>AS> Can he show his repentence [sic] is more than empty
>AS> words?
>EF> "Show" whom? I thought your god was privy to everyone's innermost
>EF> thoughts.
AS> Sure. And how many people here have thought, "I HAVE
AS> to give up smoking"
AS> and never done it?
Another false analogy. And you didn't answer my question.
AS> The confession of your love for God is, in this sense,
AS> an action. Just thinking smugly,"Well, I'm not
AS> perfect, but I'm nothing
AS> horrible. Surely nothing will happen to ME..." might
AS> not be the best
AS> stance to take, when you're dealing with a being who
AS> is infinitely God and
AS> thus repulsed by any evil.
This has nothing to do with my question.
>AS> Can he do any good
>AS> works that will amend what happened?
>EF> Likewise, could he do sufficient good works 5 minutes before death?
AS> Above I wrote "any". A token, even a word, to indicate
AS> they have truly
AS> changed their minds. You wrote "sufficient". Therein
AS> lies the fallacy.
No fallacy. I'm not hung up on the word - you are. Let's change it if it
will get you to answer the question: Can he do ANY good works, 5 minutes
before death, that will amend what happened?
Better? Then answer the question please.
AS> There is nothing "sufficient" you can do, even if you
AS> worked at good works
AS> for a billion years, to earn an ETERNITY of bliss and
AS> joy.
You were the one who asked what Hitler could do, after death, to amend
what happened - not me. I pointed out, by way of a question, that there
is
precious little he could do prior to death to make amends too, yet your
god WOULD accept repentance at that point.
AS> But by the same
AS> token, some effort needs to be made to show you are in
AS> earnest.
How much is "some?" And again why would anyone have to show your god that
he is earnest, unless your god can be fooled?
AS> And even the most minimal action...accepting Him, being
AS> baptized in His
AS> name...suffices.
Ok, fine. Hitler does as you describe, 5 minutes before a bomb hits his
bunker. Does he go to heaven or not? If so, then your previous objections
as to why Hitler couldn't repent after death don't hold.
AS> Everybody has good intentions, Elliot. But we have to
AS> carry them through as best we can.
Irrelevant to the issue.
---
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:35:00
EID:0fad 20825c60
MSGID: 1:215/130 000db935
In a message dated 03-30-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
In a message dated 03-30-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> EF> Do the smiley faces denote frivolity? I hope so. If, however, you
> EF> serious I must ask: why on earth do you want the T C in the
> EF> Constitution - the supreme law of the land - if not to make them
> EF> legally binding?
> EF> I notice, also, you only got around to mentioning the most social
> EF> universal of the commandments: no killing, stealing, lying. How a
> EF> the other, truly religious ones such as, no other gods, graven i
> EF> God's name in vain, keeping the Sabbath, etc?
>
JG> Simply because they are the socially universal. Man can
JG> choose to make any of these things legal or illegal.
Actually, no. In law there is a well defined distinction between crimes
like murder and robbery and the society-prohibited behaviors like
prostitution, drug use, etc (including the religious prohibitions noted
above). The former are true crimes:
"Some basic criminal law are in order. Essentially there are two types of
crime: malum in se (wrong in themselves) are crimes such as rape,
robbery, murder, and arson. These are ALL immoral acts. An evil state of
mind, and an evil purpose ALWAYS accompanies these acts. [ Morissett v.
U.S., 342 U.S. 243 (1952) ]
"They have been wrong since the beginning of recorded time and will never
cease being so." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi Drugs in America p.188.
"Malum in se -- evil in itself; naturally evil as adjudged by the sense
of
a civilized society. It refers to an act or case involving illegality from
the very nature of the transaction, upon principles of natural, moral and
public law. For example murder is malum in se because even without a
specific criminal prohibition the community would think it to be an evil
and wrongful act.--Steven H. Gifis. Law Dictionary, Barron's, Woodbury,
New York, 1975 p. 124-125
-----
The point is, true crimes like murder and theft have never been legal -
and could never be made legal - in any civilized country. That is what I
meant by "socially universal."
JG> Abortion was once illegal it is now legal.
And before it was illegal it was legal.
Homosexuality once illegal now legal.
Wrong. Homosexual acts were once illegal.
JG> Do laws that change all of a sudden change from "good
JG> to evil" or "evil to good"?
Such things as abortion and homosexual acts are not - and never were -
true crimes and thus never "evil." No more so than not keeping the Sabbath
is evil. Your religion may think so but that doesn't impinge on society
-
nor should it.
JG> Is there an ultimate "truth"?
If there is you and I will never know it.
JG> Was abortion evil before and now has become good ?
See above.
JG> And hey adultery ? Used to be punishable by death, now
JG> it is a status symbol.
Not keeping the Sabbath use to be punishable by death, as was many other
trivial actions, according to the Bible. Your point?
JG> Legally Binding ? You can't legislate morality.
Nonsense! What do you think laws (legislation) against murder do?
JG>Even god does not stop us from murdering one another.
The law doesn't stop people from murdering, but that doesn't mean morality
isn't legislated. Maybe not your particular religions "morality" or is
that what you want?
JG> They may be commandments and they may even be written
JG> in stone :-) But we can still do it even though it says
JG> "thou shalt not".
What's your point? What does this have to do wanting to put the 10 C in
the Constitution?
JG> The penalty of breaking these commandments is spiritual
JG> death. Not as a "punishment", but as a "natural
JG> consequence".
In Moses day they were almost all capital offenses. No spiritual death -
death period.
JG> A simple departure from what is true and good and
JG> right. Which is what the spiritual world and god is all
JG> about.
No, since your god has called on his children to break them whenever he
so
chooses.
JG> Man is not just a physical being, he is also a spiritual being.
Unsupported opinion only.
EF> Well regardless, the point is moot. About half of God's top ten are
EF> patiently UN-constitutional, and thus Un-American, on their face. One
EF> through four violate the First Amendment and number 10 is
EF> anti-capitalist (and thus to most people, un-american).
JG> As you must know, man has been FREE to break these
JG> commandments from the beginning of time.
Your point?
JG> Does the constitution grant such freedom ?
Yes, the First Amendment.
JG> These were never meant as laws as such.
On the contrary. They were meant to be laws to the Jews.
Anyway I will assume you agree that the cited commandments are
unconstitutional and thus have no place in the Constitution.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:35:00
EID:23b9 20825c60
MSGID: 1:215/130 000db93e
In a message dated 03-29-96 John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
JB> (Procedural note: The Hebrew word in "thou shalt not
JB> [kill]" should be translated "murder," not "kill."
Ah, sorry John. The Hebrew word used in the 6th Commandment for kill
-"ratsach"- is also used elsewhere to mean something other than murder.
Numbers 35:27 shows that the word can mean justified killing: "If the
revenger of blood kill [ratsach] the slayer he shall not be guilty of
blood." The word was also used to denote capital punishment (Numbers
35:30-31) and even for killing by animals (Proverbs 22:13).
Nor would it make sense if it did mean murder. Murder is to kill
unlawfully, maliciously, or premeditatedly. But the Ten Commandments
supposedly _are_ the law. To say the commandment means "murder" would be
saying "it is unlawful to kill unlawfully" - tautological.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: [1/2] Re: Tithe
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:35:00
EID:72a9 20825c60
MSGID: 1:215/130 000db947
In a message dated 03-30-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
Tith
JG> The point is that yes we have hungry people.
JG> SHould we then sell all the artifacts in our
JG> museums, and open them up as hostels ? Should
JG> we take all the money from scientific groups
JG> trying to find dinosaur bones for our
JG> museums, and use it to feed hungry people ?
EF> Museums, scientific groups? No. But should churches? You tell me:
EF> "All who believed were together and had all things in common; they
EF> would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds
to
EF> all, as any had need." -- Acts 2:44-45
EF> And Jesus said:
EF> "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body,
EF> what you will put on." -- Luke 12:22
EF> "Sell what you have and give alms." -- Luke 12:33
EF> "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he
EF> hath, he cannot be my disciple." -- Luke 14:33
EF> "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to
EF> the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow
me."
JG> These were said to specific people and were not
JG> necessarily meant for every individual who lives.
Not when taken as a whole. They are consistent with teachings found
elsewhere.
> so Jesus was merely repeating the First Commandment which the young ma
> said he had kept, but had he ?
>
> "THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GOD BEFORE ME !"
That's not what the Bible says! Where did you get that?
> And that is what ALL of the above are saying. You can have millions
> of dollars as long as you are WILLING to give them up if god tells you
> God may not necessarily require you to.
Then why did JC say (and you ignore) what came after that? What did he say
about a rich man and Heaven?
EF> Ok, I'll buy the reasoning behind this. It's sensible. But Jesus
EF> taught something quite different and not so sensible: Besides things
EF> like loving your enemies, blessing those who curse you, and turning
EF> the other cheek, he said to give what you have to any - and every -
EF> one who asks of you. Don't accept repayment. If someone takes your
EF> cloak, give him your tunic also. Sublime concepts and very difficult
EF> to practice. No doubt it is the reason so few "Christians" offer up
EF> more than lip service to them.
JG> I seldom "lend" money. If a friend asks to borrow 5 or
JG> 10 dollars,
JG> and I have it, I GIVE it to them. If they return it
JG> fine, if not
JG> don't worry about it.
JC didn't say to do these things to your friends: Give to EVERYONE who
asks of you.
JG> ? No... you take a portion of your money, and
JG> you use it to help those less fortunate, you
JG> do not become poor yourself to do so.
JG>The same with churches.
EF> Fine. Now reconcile this with what Jesus said to do - over and over
EF> again. I don't think you can without making a mockery of the
Gospels.
JG>The pharisees accused Jesus of doing that with the Laws of Moses.
You fail to address the issue. In fact the rest of your post was quite
unresponsive. You didn't even bother to address the whole second half.
Here it is again:
JG> Jesus was Jesus. He did what was God's
JG> purpose for him. No one else is Jesus. Some
JG> people may choose to do the same kind of
JG> missionary work, with just the clothes on
JG> their back and nothing else.
Interesting. JC said: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which
is in heaven is perfect." -- Matthew 5:48
What does he mean by "perfect?" ".... If thou wilt be perfect, go [and]
sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure
in
heaven: and come [and] follow me." -- Matthew 19:21
Looks pretty unequivocal to me. Deny it if you wish. But JC's response to
that attitude would likely be:
"Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
-- Luke 6:46
or
"... Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,' These people draw near
to me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, But their heart is
far away from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines
the precepts of men.' " -- Matt. 15:7-9
JG> Others may choose to be more like Solomon who
JG> was a great man of god and yet one of the
JG> most wealthiest men that ever lived.
Not only was Solomon rich, I hear he also had a few extra wives. Therefore
polygamy must be ok too, right?
Heck, as long as we are using Old Testament role models, can we assume it
is likewise ok to commit murder like Moses and King David? How about
adultery (David again - God's favorite)? Acceptable behavior?
Again I think you have forwarded an argument in haste. You see, most of
the Christians around here have learned, through bitter experience, to put
as much distance as possible between themselves and the Old Testament.
JG> Wealth is not a judge of how godly you are,
JG> with the poorest person being the most
JG> righteous and the wealthiest person being the
JG> biggest sinner.
Ho-boy. Let's see what the Bible says:
"But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation."
-- Luke 6:24
"They that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many
foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and
perdition..."
-- I Timothy 6:9
"He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that
loveth abundance with increase: this [is] also vanity."
--Ecclesiastes 5:10
"He that hasteth to be rich [hath] an evil eye, and considereth not that
poverty shall come upon him." -- Proverbs 28:22
"There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: [there is] that
maketh himself poor, yet [hath] great riches. The ransom of a man's life
[are] his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke."
-- Proverbs 13:7-8
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich
man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven."
--Matthew 19:23
"And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth
again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust
in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to
go
through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom
of God."
--Mark 10:24-25
Clear enough?
-------------------
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity const
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:35:00
EID:87ab 20825c60
MSGID: 1:215/130 000db950
In a message dated 03-30-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: Cla
> deit EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Kevin D.:
>
> JG>you have about as
> EF> much proof of where your "big bang" came from as I have of where
> JG>"god" came from.
>
> EF> Jim, you are wholly unqualified to make this judgment.
>
> Huh ? Judgement ? Um did I miss something ?
So it would seem.
> Have you got PROOF of where this "big bang" came from.
I rest my case (i.e., that you are wholly unqualified to make this
judgment.) Science doesn't deal in proof. Asking for such shows your lack
of qualification to make the above statements.
> Oh yes and before you present
> that proof, Please prevent the PROOF that a big bang even occured.
> It is a great theory, but somehow I think it is as yet unproven.
This shows you don't know what a scientific theory is.
> So were they able to consistently reproduce this big bang under
> laboratory conditions ? :-)
Likewise this demonstrates you don't know how science works.
JG> BTW. What qualifications did I need to make that
JG> STATEMENT(not judgement).
It was a judgement. You concluded - ajudged - the relative evidence for
the Big Bang / your god to be about the same. A judgement.
What qualifications? How about knowing something about science, the Big
Bang, scientific theories, before making such rash and incorrect
conclusions?
JG>You little religion is also based on faith. Some nothingness magician
JG>waved a nothingness wand and a "big bang" occured and flowers and
JG>rabbits started jumping out of hats 4.5 billion years later.
EF> Phew! Jim, Jim Jim. Not wanting to immediately assume conscious
EF> distortion on your part, I have to tell you, you display a
EF> considerable knowledge gap regarding science in general, and about
EF> scientific theory and the Big Bang in particular.
EF> science a religion is ludicrous. The scientific method is
EF> _precisely_ the polar opposite of religious dogma.
JG>I didn't call science a religion.
Yes you did. What else could you be referring to when you said:
JG>You little religion is also based on faith. Some nothingness magician
JG>waved a nothingness wand and a "big bang" occured and flowers and
JG>rabbits started jumping out of hats 4.5 billion years later.
Who's Big Bang theory are you referring to if not sciences?
> Science is not a religion. Believing
> as a fact the big bang theory is the religion I speak of.
> It is a theory, but even your outburst up there about "qualifications
> show that you consider it to be an indisputable fact.
Nothing in science is considered an "indisputable fact." There is no such
thing as an "indisputable fact." Obviously I was quite correct about your
lack of qualifications.
> EF> Who is on dangerous ground? Science has no established _theory_ o
> EF> origins of life. The _hypothesis'_ advanced by science regarding
> EF> origins do not have the factual support required of full fledged
> EF> scientific theories such as those on evolution, electricity, gra
> EF> for instance. Science never pretended otherwise. It is Christian
> EF> bearing false witness who would attempt to put such untrue and a
> EF> claims in the mouths of scientists.
>
> Not true scientists, but those atheists who go around claiming that sc
> has proved that life began with a "big bang" or that amino acids just
> suddenly sprang to life unaided.
That life began with a big bang? You don't know of any atheist - or anyone
- who ever said that. You may prove me wrong by supplying an example of
someone who actually said this.
> EF> Now isn't it just the slightest bit possible that sound scientifi
> EF> reasons exist why one does not preclude the other? Hint: try to
> EF> scientist in the applicable field who says "something can come f
> EF> nothing."
> EF> Those are your words, not science's. You would do well to discove
> EF> what science actually says before attacking:
>
> The question, then comes down to what went "bang" and why did it go ba
> and where did it come from in the first place to go bang.
Find out what science says - instead of constantly misstating what they
say.
---
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:35:00
EID:461a 20825c60
MSGID: 1:215/130 000db959
In a message dated 03-29-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Lynda Bustilloz:
> JG> for the rest of your life. You are only trying to fool yourself.
>
> LB> Physician, heal theyself.
>
> JG> absolutely USELESS because you have no idea what the SPIRIT of th
> JG> words are. You cannot interpret them properly because your heart
> JG> full of fear of the *truth.* You are so puffed up with pride , that
>
>
> JG> could never admit you are wrong. It isn't me you have to answer t
> JG> is GOD , it is the *TRUTH* that you refuse to answer to. Not MY tru
> JG> but the *truth* that God right now is laying upon your heart, and
y
> JG> fighting so desperately to DENY !
>
Compare the above with:
EF> scientific theories never "graduate" to some transcendent state of
EF> ultimate "Truth." (Yet that is EXACTLY what most religions claim to
EF> have).
JG> that is certainly not what I claim. In fact the bible
JG> says "now we see
JG> through a glass darkly, then we shall see face to
JG> face".
JG> I just believe there IS an ultimate truth, I dont
JG> claim to know exactly
JG> what it is.
You don't claim to know the ulitimate truth but it doesn't stop you from
telling others what that truth is.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
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PATH: 215/130 200 705 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Craig
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Radical-Extremists-Hate G
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:19:00
EID:c609 20827260
PID: RA 2.5.g1 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56ffd4da
REPLY: 1:116/19 031DAAEE
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
AS>107/411 116/19 123/1
AS>153/800 920 157/586
AS>245/6910 260/10
AS> MC> THE ANTI-CHRISTS
AS> MC> It is a sad day in America when the Justice Department identifies
AS> MC> itself with the ADL, and other Jewish-supremist-hate groups. The
AS> MC> ADL is anti-Christ, anti-Christian, and anti-American. They are
not
AS> MC> satisfied with the carnage they instigated at Ruby Ridge and Waco:
AS> MC> but are now conspiring with their agent provocateurs, to do the
same
AS> MC> thing in Montana.
AS> MC> There needs to be Congressional hearings concerning these traitors,
AS> MC> and they should be made to register as agents of the State of
AS> MC> Israel.
AS> Oh. Ruby Ridge and Waco were Jewish plots, huh?
AS> How incredibly ignorent and consumed with hate you are. Do
AS>you think
AS> Janet Reno is in the employ of the state of Israel? Christ
AS>was Jewish.
AS> Paul was Jewish. Peter was Jewish. Mary was Jewish. David
AS>was Jewish.
AS> Nothing could be more anti-Christian that showing hate
AS>towards the people
AS> in which your Savior first presented Himself.
AS> Shalom and Mazel tof and all that. Oy vey!
The Jew is the child of the Devil, and he belongs to the synagogue of Satan
-- Jesus Christ (jn.8:44,rv.2:9,3:9).
---
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
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PATH: 123/319 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Craig
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:21:00
EID:8d12 208272a0
PID: RA 2.5.g1 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56ffd566
REPLY: 3:711/933 315ec93c
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
AG>107/411 123/1 43 67
AG>920 157/586 167/92
AG>Dear Mark Craig,
AG>Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus
AG>Christ.
AG> MC> The fall of the Roman Empire was the advent of the millennium.
AG>Really? Then Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, John and all the
AG>rest
AG>were wrong. Thank's for setting us straight. We all thought
AG>that
AG>the Millennium would bring in everlasting righteousness -
AG>with no
AG>war, no sickness, death, age, Satan bound all the non-elect
AG>all in
AG>the grave, etc., etc.
AG>Thanks for showing us where all of God's prophets were FALSE.
AG> MC> The attack on Israel is the end of the world.
AG>Gee, thanks for that! Together with all of the prophets, I
AG>thought
AG>it just before the Millennium.
AG>Where can we buy your replacement for the Bible?
AG> MC> Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
AG>I think you mean `The anti-Christ's Kitchen', and if you're
AG>not a
AG>little more in tune with God it will one day be you that's
AG>aflame.
---
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
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PATH: 123/319 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Craig
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:26:00
EID:8d12 20827340
PID: RA 2.5.g1 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56ffd678
REPLY: 3:711/933 315ec93c
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
AG>107/411 123/1 43 67
AG>920 157/586 167/92
AG>Dear Mark Craig,
AG>Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus
AG>Christ.
AG> MC> The fall of the Roman Empire was the advent of the millennium.
AG>Really? Then Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, John and all the
AG>rest
AG>were wrong. Thank's for setting us straight. We all thought
AG>that
AG>the Millennium would bring in everlasting righteousness -
AG>with no
AG>war, no sickness, death, age, Satan bound all the non-elect
AG>all in
AG>the grave, etc., etc.
AG>Thanks for showing us where all of God's prophets were FALSE.
AG> MC> The attack on Israel is the end of the world.
AG>Gee, thanks for that! Together with all of the prophets, I
AG>thought
AG>it just before the Millennium.
AG>Where can we buy your replacement for the Bible?
AG> MC> Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
AG>I think you mean `The anti-Christ's Kitchen', and if you're
AG>not a
AG>little more in tune with God it will one day be you that's
AG>aflame.
You don't like to be confused with the facts. Even a third grade student
could read ez.38,39,40;rv.20:7-5, and know what God is talking about.
You have obviously been sent by your father the Devil, to confuse and divide.
"After-all," he is the "father of confusion."
---
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
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PATH: 123/319 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Charles Ring
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: STEVE WINTER
|Date: 02 Apr 96 15:13:55
EID:5d5d 208279a0
MSGID: 1:2601/100 3161444c
PID: GED3 2.5 189LM1
BJ> On 28 Mar 96 09:59am, FREDRIC RICE wrote to BECKE JONES:
FR>>> Which is why I advocated the reinstatement of Steve Winter in
FR>>> FidoNet.
bj>>> Winter _finally_ got booted? When? Details, details...
FR>> He was booted twice, once for being excessively annoying, and
FR>> once for a hoax article to FidoNews which it turns out wasn't
FR>> written by him (it only matched Winter's hatreds and bigotries to
FR>> a 'T.'
The second time he was booted was only indirectly for the bogus article
- it was really for an avalanche of complaints about his general actions
(excessively annoying again, at the time the worst in Fidonet history but
since exceeded by "the terminator" & gang) that preceded and followed the
hoax.
I have been called "accursed filthy scum", "hardened false Christian scum"
(I'm a traditionalist Catholic), and "corrupt Fidonet official" (as an NC
I rejected his PC's against a member of my net) by Winter, but I knew in
a moment of reading that article was not written by him. After his trademark
put-down "false Christian scum", not one phrase of the whole thing matches
his beliefs or style.
FR>> It advocated the disruption of Wiccan and neo-Pagan
FR>> BBSs.)
That's right, but Winter has never once targeted either. He reserves 99.9%
of his wrath for believers in the Trinity. You will be pleased to know he
has said he has more respect for Atheists than for Catholics and mainline
Protestants. He also doesn't bother Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. etc., but
he called Martin Luther a "trinity slut".
FR>> Both times the fuck threatened to sue "corrupt FidoNet officials"
FR>> and the Z1 coordinator caved in. I think that anyone who spouts
FR>> "law suit" should be immediately banned from FidoNet if they have
FR>> no grounds, however Winter's Christanic rants go a long way
FR>> toward assisting the cause of reason and anti-Christian,
FR>> anti-religion sentiment so I advocated his reinstatement both
FR>> times.
Winter's rants can have that effect only on those who never look beneath
the surface. As you likely know, that's plenty.
---
* Origin: Niles, Ohio St. Stephen class of '65 (1:2601/100)
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PATH: 2601/100 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: The damage done
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:36:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6daa
PID: FM 2.02
js>> Sorry, Don't quite understand
js>> that one. Don't care to either.
FR> That just about wraps it up, doesn't it?
sr>> Right. Just bury your head in the sand, yet again,
sr>> and say 500 "Is Nots!" and make it all go away.
FR> The song, "I've seen the needle and the damage done" comes to mind.
bj> Neil Young!! Good taste in music, m'dear...=)
Well, I was close in my explanation on what might have caused such damage.
~*~ Live within the law or we'll kill you within the law
- Fredric Rice, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: JOE SAVE-LIE: IN HIS FACE?
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:37:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dab
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Save-lie continued to lie like a Christian long after the truth was
FR> exposed whereafter someone (I foret who) suggested that maybe Save-lie
FR> himself was caught jacking off in the salad dressing at the salad bar
FR> and had been arrested and dragged out. He wanted to know whether it
FR> was the Creamy Italian dressing or the Ranch dressing. }:-}
bj> ROFL!! I missed this?? Damn, I could've had fun with this nutcase..;)
There will be others. }:-} Were you here when Steve Bedable was here?
~*~ Wake up, fundy!
Time for your medication! - Fredric Rice
.
I don't take medication Mr. Dumb Ass! And I am not even close to
being a fundy. But what do you know? Apparently not shit! - Bill Wolff
.
Woah! - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: STEVE WINTER
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:38:35
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dac
PID: FM 2.02
bj>> Winter _finally_ got booted? When? Details, details...
FR> He was booted twice, once for being excessively annoying, and once for
FR> a hoax article to FidoNews which it turns out wasn't written by him
(it
FR> only matched Winter's hatreds and bigotries to a 'T.' It advocated
the
FR> disruption of Wiccan and neo-Pagan BBSs.)
bj> Are you sure it wasn't Winter? I remember clearly seeing
bj> something like this posted by him on Usenet quite a while back.
It could have been him but his hatred first and foremost is against fellow
Christians. He's got enough enemies among his own religion as it is without
setting out to pretend to destroy others.
~*~ I can't read, why should my taxes support libraries?
- An editorial in the Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: The Lawyer Fucks Up?
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:41:50
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dad
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 14511d5a
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I think it's neat! Some are incapable of learning and, while people
FR> like Jones drive the nation's expenses up, at least I and my sons
FR> won't have these lunatics to compete with in the job marketplace.
jcj> Don't write their applications for them, okay? It's "my sons and I."
That's an interesting accusation yet I suspect you've stuffed your lawyer
foot into your lawyer mouth. The inclusive case may be formed correctly
using either syntax. You're probably suffering under the delusion that
I typed "me and my sons."
By the way: Get a real job rather than be a parasite on humanity. Thanks.
~*~ Another disenfranchised quasibiped from the MTV school of debate.
- Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: The Lawyer Is A Fundy. Get Over It.
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:44:19
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dae
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 14511d5c
PID: FM 2.02
SA> Something you fundies never seem to do.
JJ> What is a "fundie?"
SA> Look in the mirror.
JJ> And why do you call me one?
SA> Because I believe in calling a spade a spade.
jcj> That is not an answer, Sue.
FR> She told you, you ignorant death cultist lawyer. Look in the
FR> mirror for once. You'll find a fundy looking back at you.
jcj> That is not an answer either, Fred.
There's another artifact of the low quality of education in America
raising its ugly head again. Or perhaps your problem is one of being a
lawyer. Or perhaps it's because you're an ignorant death cultist.
~*~ Arguing with yourself again Fredric? - Bill Wolff
Since your masters won't let you listen, I guess I am at that. - Fred Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Staal can't leave. I won't let him.
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:49:04
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6daf
PID: FM 2.02
RS> Except for Staal of course. In his case, there seems to be some type
RS> of supernatural alien powere keeping him here against his will.
ns> I bet it's Assmotrin that is animating the dead corpse of Staal.
FR> Nope. It's me. I won't allow Staal to leave. He must beg first.
ns> I stand corrected.
ns> If you're going to animate him anyway, what are the odds
ns> that you'll rent him out for menial yard work cheap? };)
You know I would yet I suspect his programming can't be changed.
ns> I do note that he has returned from the netherworld that
ns> he fled to earlier. Interesting how that happens, eh?
He never left. You know, I 'spect that many never do. They just continue
to read and at times itch to respond but have too much ego to do so.
~*~ There are alot of people on this board who will one day get the shock
of their life when the are standing before God, and he reads back their
posts, and asks them to give account of what they said. I wish I could
be there.... - Doug Brewer
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Your Daily Murder.2
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:55:17
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db0
PID: FM 2.02
JG> Man mandated it. Man is totally responsible for it because he chooses
JG> to ignore the words of god. Do you advance the cause of the butcherers
FR> Amazing. He doesn't even admit that his mythologies tell him that
FR> his deity constructs ordered the slaughter, kidnap, and rape.
ns> You noticed that too, eh? And I thought that dwarf
ns> star matter was the most dense in the universe . . . };)
He's nearly Creationist in his dishonesty, yeah. He's trying to demand
that men are responsible (and they are) and ignoring the fact that they
used their deity constructs to justify it; deity constructs he fell for.
ns> Read your bible, pathetic fundy. YHVH ordered or encouraged most of
ns> those slaughters. Just as he wiped out the innocents of Egypt, etc.
FR> If he read the bloody thing he wouldn't be a believer.
ns> Maybe he just skips over the parts he doesn't like. That would not
ns> make him a true believer in my book, but who am I to say, eh?
That makes him a Salad Bar Fundie. }:-} "Is that Creamy or Ranch?"
~*~ "Obviously your ignorance of western civilization is lacking."
-- Charlie J. Ray
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Waco "rememberance."
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:57:37
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db1
PID: FM 2.02
TP> Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have been
TP> NO criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
DW> Why don't you get off your lazy ass and file
DW> charges, then? What are you afraid of?
ns> Gee, what a great tactic! Wish _I'd_ thought of it . . .
It's a good one. When fundies demand that there are "Satanists" out killing
babies and eating them and groups of people out ritually sexually molesting
children, all one needs to ask is what the police did and said when they
reported it and the fundy shuts up.
~*~ Show me one thing in the universe, just one,
only one, which is unchanging. - Jesse Hornbacher
The ignorance of Creationists. - David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Jim Staal's evil claim
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:58:46
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db2
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
ns> Hear, hear! Bravo. Need any help? };)
Rumor has it that one of his personalities apologized already. I saw it
posted to #holysmoke last night.
ns> Of course, its hard to think of a punishment
ns> worse than actually being Jim Staal . . .
Being his wife.
~*~ The "International Zionist Conspiracy," is taking over the world.
- Gerald Norris
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Pat Pukecannon
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:00:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db3
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Today Pat Pukecannon strapped on his jackboots and goosestepped
FR> toward the microphones to express his cult's hatred and bigotry
FR> of homosexuals. The cause for this particular episode? The
FR> marriage of many homosexual couples today in the San Francisco
FR> area.
[...cuts...]
FR> Christianity is utterly evil.
ns> Hey, Buchanon has a legitimate reason for feeling the way he does:
ns> he lost both parents in the Holocaust. They fell off guard towers.
ns> };)
Well that might just be true. I've got a couple of files I need
to post here which cover his bigotry coming from people who have worked
with him for years.
~*~ I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have
any rights and i never will. - Don Ward
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Waco Rememberance: How many die this time?
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:10:42
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db4
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Now I see more of his friends holed up. For some reason I have no
FR> sympathy for these lunatics any more. I have a hope that his freinds
FR> who call themselves "Freemen" get wiped-out to a man resisting arrest.
FR> I just hope that these friends of his don't drag children into it
FR> like the last time.
ns> Unfortunately, there appears to be at least one in the compound, a
ns> little girl if I don't misremember. Sad to think of these tough and
ns> patriotic strapping studs hiding quivering behind the frail life of
a
ns> tiny six-year old, isn't it? If she wasn't there, I'd be all for
ns> suggesting judicious use of whooley pete . . .
I haven't been able to get much information on these nuts nor have I been
able to learn how many children are expected to be inside. This one seems
to be being played close to the vest by the FBI; they're not releasing information
to individuals within the populace. (Part of the conspiracy, you see.)
TP> What's your point?
dw> My point, that you've helped so much in
dw> illustrating, is that you are a fool.
FR> Who wears a foil hat to keep the government from reading his thoughts,
FR> perhaps.
ns> And talks to his bullets while caressing them at night.
Rubbing his bible against himself while doing so?
tP> be exempted from manslaughter charges
TP> because they 'were just following orders?'
dw> How many people died from being ran over by a
dw> Bradley (the vehicle you continue to call a tank)?
FR> Exactly 0.
ns> That's what I believe, too.
No one was run over by a tank. Hell, there were no tanks used.
dw> Should we let people get away with refusal to honor a search warrant,
dw> Terry? If the BDs had simply let the agents in, none of this would have
dw> happened.
FR> Which is exactly what his friends the "Freemen" are doing.
ns> Exactly. And if the Branch Davidians had allowed the children and
ns> women to leave the compound, the tragedy would have been far less.
But
ns> they were all good manly men of gawd. Jeesh.
Promise Keepers to a man.
~*~ "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade
of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders
will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- Thomas Jefferson, to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Steve Winter
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:12:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db5
PID: FM 2.02
FR> He was booted twice, once for being excessively annoying, and once for
FR> a hoax article to FidoNews which it turns out wasn't written by him
FR> (it only matched Winter's hatreds and bigotries to a 'T.' It
FR> advocated the disruption of Wiccan and neo-Pagan BBSs.)
ns> Any idea how I could get a copy of this latter
ns> document? I have a vested interest . . .
I doubt whether I kept a copy but there _are_ FidoNews depositories. You
can ask Sylvia Maxwell at 1/23 (FidoNews) for a copy.
~*~ Noah was not a Jew. He is the ancestor of the Jews and everyone else.
- Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Waco Rememberance: Send in some pizza!
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:15:39
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db6
PID: FM 2.02
ns> BTW, Fredric, I agree. I would pay to have
ns> pizza sent in, just to watch the show.
FR> That's a WONDERFUL idea! Some of Parker's friends (calling themselves
FR> "Freemen") are holed up resisting arrest, hiding behind children
FR> again. Wouldn't it kick to call up Domino's Pizza and have someone
FR> deliver to the compound?
ns> I think so. I think we should order anchovies with extra cheese and
ns> double crust (the Bunker Special?), say about five or six of them,
ns> 'cause I bet the guys are pretty hungry by now.
But they're Manly Men! They'll want deep dish with peppers and onions...
and a chior boy to deliver them.
~*~ You can keep your saints. I'll hang with the sinners - jonny vee
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: JIM STAALS
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:21:17
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db7
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 58c4f500
PID: FM 2.02
s> ....It's been guite an adjustment for my mother also, I think I'm
FR> Hey! You claimed you weren't going to post here again. Doesn't your
FR> paper idol tell you cultists not to lie for your paper idol?
js> Mister Rice, are you sure you are addressing
js> this post to the correct Staal?
Well, I used to ask you which personality I was addressing yet you never
responded. Since you feel incapable of taking responsibility for your posts
and actions I thought I would stop asking and just refer to all of your
personalities as "Jim Staal."
Oh... By the way, your Lon S. Mabon and your Mark/Lump personalities are
practically indistinguishable. Do you have any personalities which _aren't_
assholes?
js> BTW, I never heard you or that nice Dave guy say anything disparaging
js> concerning the death of my father. As far as I know it was strictly
js> within the realm of George Rudzinski. I also never indicated otherwise.
Well, that's an apology of sorts. Thanks. I accept your apology.
js> ... Pray without ceasing. (1 The 5:17)
Worship the idol without thinking.
~*~ Gay people are worshipers of SATIN - Don Ward
Some prefer silk. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Who's who...
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:22:27
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db8
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 9d4fda15
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Ah, yes. The Christanic death cultist expedient
FR> when caught in a lie: It was just a joke.
js> Fred - not aware of any 'Christanic death cultists', you?
That sentence is constructed strangely yet I believe I can extract what
might be a query. Would you like some acedemic research references?
~*~ You can't discuss Scientology because you know that L.Ron
Hubbard is a really pathetic excuse for a God. - TarlaStar
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Walk away, Jim. It's easy. It's freedom.
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:31:36
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6db9
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 5c61e73d
PID: FM 2.02
js> Does that mean I have to come back???
FR> You never left. I won't allow it.
js> Your wish (on this topic), sir, is my command! I am here.
Why not free yourself, Jim? Just walk away. Tell yourself you've had enough
of the hypocricy, the woman hating, the gay bashing, the self-deceptions,
the dictate toward not thinking and -- just -- walk -- away. The people
in this forum could be your life-long friends and we'll always be here to
support you when you need it. We've been here at least six years and we'll
be here always. You could be part of our community. Ask them. Contrary
to what you may think none of us are your life-long enemies. You're caught
in a religion which makes you behave contrary to _YOUR_ wishes.
You're due for a life change anyway, aren't you? Religious zealotry and
drinking is tearing apart your marriage. You're a creative singer with
a good voice and you should be able to cast aside all the old negatives
and start anew; new friends, new lifestyles, new employment, new and exciting
vistas of not-yet-explored scientific wonders. What's keeping you back
is committment to a lie that you can't pretend to support any more.
Walk away, Jim. It's easy. Most of us did.
~*~ Ok, you win. You proved that your god it the best there ever was at
hid n' seek. Now, trot him out here so that we can give him his reward.
- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal's apology
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:37:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dba
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 808ddea2
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
js> Give it up, Fred. You know the truth of the matter...every
js> body does.
The fact is that you accused David and myself of something quite distasteful,
Jim. You've already apologized for doing so. Why not let the apology stand?
~*~ They are really pro-murder forces that supports the murder of babies
against the will of the mother, before and after birth. - Raoul Newton
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Kenneth the neo-atheist
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:38:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dbb
REPLY: 1:271/460 315fcd7a
PID: FM 2.02
By the way: Would you murder your children when your gods tell you to?
~*~ Do you have any evidence that Wiccans or Pagans eat people, Jesse?
- Fredric Rice
Read up on Africa. It might be an education for you. - Jesse Hornbacher
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Nick Andre
|Sub: Hi
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:43:44
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dbc
REPLY: 1:252/502 2e93e73c
PID: FM 2.02
na> I'm new to this echo.... :)
Welcome, Nick! Have you heard the words of gods today?
na> Ok, let me start off by saying that I'm against
na> the evil form known as religion, or the bible.
Yeah, both have been responsible for most of humanity's woes -- that and
disease.
na> For one thing, the bible says that homosexuality is wrong.
The Christian mythologies also state that wearing mixed fibres or cutting
your bear is wrong. And yet Christians don't care about those.
~*~ We are all in need of salvation. I may not know you, but knowing you
are an atheist, I know you need to be saved. It must be extremely
difficult to be an atheist? - Scott Shiflett, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Nick Andre
|Sub: His Daily Death Cult
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:45:35
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dbd
REPLY: 1:252/502 2e93e73d
PID: FM 2.02
GM> SEARCHING AND FINDING Read: Jeremiah 29:1-14 You will seek Me
GM> and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
GM> -Jeremiah 29:13
[...cuts...]
na> Lies, all lies...
Without a doubt. This one doesn't even read the debunkings he recieves.
His masters doubtless program him to spout occult mythology as if from a
busted shitpipe yet he's simply not interested in learning the truth.
~*~ The only fear of death that I have is the fear that whatever
kills me is going to hurt like a sonuvabitch. -- Quentin Fai
---
* Origin: HolySmoke: This was no boating accident! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Hardy's hard on, Hardly!
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:49:02
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dbe
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89530E28
PID: FM 2.02
MH> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
MH> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David
dc> Eat your hearts out, David, Fredric, Sean, Steve and David!
FR> Hey, it was an attempt to insult _ME_ by making me third string. You
dc> Hang on a minute and let me get my violin....
Well at least I came in third. God Dan _should_ come first, after all,
and the letter D comes before the letter F.
FR> weren't the one who hurt his deeply-held occultism by
FR> shoving the truth in his face, it was _ME_!
dc> Hmmm, perhaps I should have gotten out the drums and horn instead!
;)
Thanks in advance. }:-}
~*~ ... Here, kitty, kitty, kitty....
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Myth idols
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:51:27
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dbf
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89530E2B
PID: FM 2.02
js> ....It's been guite an adjustment for my mother also, I think I'm
FR> Hey! You claimed you weren't going to post here again. Doesn't your
FR> paper idol tell you cultists not to lie for your paper idol?
dc> Speaking of paper idols... The latest edition of National
dc> Enquirer has a picture of a 200 ft tall Jesus on it this week!
dc>
dc> Aren't super market checkout lines fun!
Was this a real construct or did some lunatic see a cloud?
~*~ Pray for the salvation of all in this conference. - Jason Massey
Please do. By the way, I'll be praying to Satan for your damnation.
- David Rice
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Jim Staal's apology
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:53:44
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dc0
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89530E2C
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
dc> Problemn is, just which Staal (lack of)
dc> personality using at the time he wrote that?
The Mark/Lump/Kram/Lon personality made the accusation yet the Jim personality
apologized for it. Bizzare, huh?
dc> ... Which one of you is in possesion of
dc> the solitary Staal neuron today?
I wonder if they fight over it to see who's going to use it to post.
~*~ Butting heads with fundies is best left to Goats - Styx Allum
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christia
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:56:54
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dc2
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89530E2F
PID: FM 2.02
>> 75. Atheists regularly go door-to-door on Sunday mornings
>> asking people not to go to church with them.
FR>
dc> Same here! However, I never saw the original...
dc> Do you have a copy of it that you can re-up?
It's file ANTIXIAN.TXT here. I sent it to your system.
~*~ The world's already ended several times over, I don't really think
anyone will notice if it ends a few more times... - Damien Wellman
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 04 Apr 96 17:03:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dc3
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89530E38
PID: FM 2.02
Michael Hardly
MH> thin. So I'm going to liven it up with a little game.
dc> Gee, that's nice. Are you leaving and coming back under an alias?
FR> all going to be punished when he leaves, allright.
dc> Just, what if: Mikey leaves and Jim Staaled-brain starts
dc> posting again?
Staal never stopped posting... unless it was for the day. Poor
guy.
dc> Worse(????!!!!), what if Spin Ron makes a re-appearance?
That would be GREAT! I wonder how we can get SpinRon to resume participation.
dc> Is it possible to be able to handle the levity of that occurrence?
Everyone set down their cans of Diet Coke. }:-}
dc> It's a plot, I say, a plot to kill off atheists with laughter. :(
"All but one man died, out on Battle Creek, and they say he ran away..."
dc> (Was my John Prewitt imitation passable?)
Yes, the foil hat was a nice touch.
~*~ In Christ - Phill Mcrevis
I hope you practice safe sodomy. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: !
|Date: 04 Apr 96 17:04:47
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dc4
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89530E3A
PID: FM 2.02
dc> BTW, let me try out my new tagline on you. I kinda like it...
dc> ... The flush you hear is what happens every time your chain is pulled.
Too cool.
~*~ You've just blown your only chance at salvation. See you in Hell.
- John Silvester
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: One for the FAQ
|Date: 04 Apr 96 17:12:45
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dc5
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31601aec
PID: FM 2.02
Jim Germiquet
JG> No I do NOT have to back up my
JG> opinions with facts. They are MY opinions.
Love it!
~*~ Take away the intimidation of children--sexual, mental and
emotional--and watch church membership drop. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 04 Apr 96 17:15:16
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dc6
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31611eb1
PID: FM 2.02
lb> Now, in any other situation, there would be no difficulty -- if I
lb> dislike the majority of the group with which I am affiliated, the only
lb> honest and sensible thing to do is to leave the group.
Or try to change it from within -- but that's only if there's something
worth salvaging.
~*~ I can't help but comment that it looks to me like your
goat is tied up in Mr. Rice's back yard. - Jonny Vee
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Charles Ring
|Sub: STEVE WINTER
|Date: 04 Apr 96 17:20:16
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2f8f6dc7
REPLY: 1:2601/100 3161444c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> It advocated the disruption of Wiccan and neo-Pagan BBSs.)
cr> That's right, but Winter has never once targeted either. He reserves
cr> 99.9% of his wrath for believers in the Trinity. You will be pleased
to
cr> know he has said he has more respect for Atheists than for Catholics
and
cr> mainline Protestants. He also doesn't bother Jews, Muslims, Hindus,
etc.
cr> etc., but he called Martin Luther a "trinity slut".
Yes, which is how most people knew it was a hoax/forgery. I was in Canada
at the time of this and I telephoned Steve. He was VERY suspicious when
he answered the telephone yet eventually he denied posting the article.
I then called someone whom I felt was probably responsible yet he wasn't
answering his phone. Then Sylvia Maxwell started exchanging mail with me
expressing how deeply depressed she was for having had to post the article
in keeping with her own policy.
~*~ What's wrong with Fundies? - Bruce Kazee
Not a thing. Unlike clay pigeons, they are capable of making
amusing howls whilst being shot down. HolySmoke would not be a
better place without them any more than a shooting gallery would be
improved by removing all the little tin ducks. -- Don Martin
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re:The Only God
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:57:17
EID:9d7b 20824720
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hello Dan
I am starting to get the impression that you do not believe in
God. Would this be a true statement?
If you do not believe in God how do you make it through your
life with out think about what will become of you after you die?
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Life in the fast lane.
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:57:17
EID:8102 20824720
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Brad Jackson <=-
RB> None of the delusion-free heathens want or need help, Brad.
RB> In fact, we're of the opinion that YOU'RE the one who needs
RB> help.
Hello Rob.
I do believe you are in need of some one to guide you. It
surely isn't me but I would suggest finding a church that teaches
the truth and go in and ask the pastor for help. As for me needing
help, you are correct. I ask for help daily from Jesus. You know
what he does just that, helps and guides me.
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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PATH: 244/108 100 400 250/99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Robert Pappas
|Sub: Re: Friends
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:57:18
EID:9fab 20824720
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hi Robert
Psalms 23 A Psalm of David. The LORD my shepherd; I shall
not want. {2} He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he
leadeth me beside the still waters. {3} He restoreth my soul: he
leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. {4}
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will
fear no evil: for thou with me; thy rod and thy staff they
comfort me. {5} Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of
mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
{6} Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my
life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
I know my lord walks with me through my life. Who is with you
Robert?
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Jesus Christ is God
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:57:18
EID:3031 20824720
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hi Dan
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of
the world, and not after Christ.
Dan don't listen to those voices that don't come from Christ. I
know it is hard for you to understand but you must not listen to
them.
Brad
... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Re: Learned Men
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:57:18
EID:2975 20824720
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hi Don
Try to read this and understand what it is saying.
Acts 2:36-42 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both
Lord and Christ. {37} Now when they heard , they were pricked
in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles,
Men brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto
them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus
Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
the Holy Ghost. {39} For the promise is unto you, and to your
children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord
our God shall call. {40} And with many other words did he testify
and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
{41} Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the
same day there were added about three thousand souls.
{42} And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and
fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Do you understand any of this Don?
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Re: Love of God
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:57:18
EID:8639 20824720
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Brad Jackson <=-
KD> On (23 Mar 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> I'd like to know how you can be sure it is the "word of God."
Hi Karen
I know this to be the word of God because he revealed it to me,
through prayer.
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the
mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all
things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they [may see], and not perceive; and hearing
they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be
converted, and sins should be forgiven them.
KD> Brad, how do you justify this with your opposition to the Trinity? How
KD> can God make himself?
Karen God made Jesus the Flesh in Mary then dewlt with in him.
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the
flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
If you like further info. please let me know, Karen. Or contact me
here at the Upper Room BBS
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 02 Apr 96 08:57:18
EID:4f5c 20824720
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Brad Jackson <=-
MB> On (23 Mar 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Marilyn Burge...
BJ> Did you forget who you were talking too, my name isn't fundy?
BJ> Maybe you should read the bible with a open heart next time! Summit
BJ> to his will, and gain understanding.
BJ> Brad
MB> Psychic, are you? How do you know I didn't have an open
MB> "hear" when I read it?
Hi Marilyn
No I am not psychic. But if you had been saved by believing in
Jesus you not want to attack me the way you do with words.
MB> Be open-minded, but not so open-minded that your brains fall out.
Are you suggesting that my brains have fell out? You for get I put
my faith in God's word not in yours.
MB> ... I see that your lobotomy was a success.
You asked me if I was psychic, so how did you know about this? I am
sure I have not told anybody about them doing it to me.
But yes I think it was a success, don't you?
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: evil
|Date: 02 Apr 96 19:18:00
EID:d7f8 20829a40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89534395
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Michael Hardy <=-
> While it is logically possible that true freedom
> could lead to a Utopia
> IF every single free being chose good over evil 100
> percent of the
> time, it is no less logically possible for free
> beings to choose evil
> and thus avert Utopia. Where Mackie goes wrong is in
> the assumption
> that because Utopia is a possible outcome, God --
> rather than the moral
> agents making the choices -- is responsible if it
> doesn't come about.
> By his own reasoning, though, it is apparent that a
> God who
> *guaranteed* Utopia could do so only by offering
> something less than
> true freedom.
AB> Why so? Isn't Utopia a logically possible world? Utopia is, you'll
AB> remember, a world in which everybody is completely free. Why is this
AB> not logically possible? And if it is, why didn't God choose that world
AB> to create?
Just as I said ... it is logically possible for a free being to never
commit evil. It is not, however, logically possible for a free being to
never be ABLE to commit evil; that would not be freedom.
God DID create a world in which Utopia -- by your definition -- is
possible. It is we who have chosen not to make it Utopia.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: isms
|Date: 02 Apr 96 19:20:00
EID:8ea8 20829a80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89534396
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Michael Hardy <=-
> AB> no evil on his standards. We also tend to doubt the value of
> AB> repentence and forgiveness, or at least I do; I tend to favor fixing
> AB> the problem and preventing it from happening again.
> Then you probably don't understand the nature of
> repentance.
> Repentance is exactly that: Fixing the problem (to
> the extent that you
> can) and doing all in your power to keep it from
> happening again.
AB> It has not been my experience that repentant people do anything of the
AB> sort. Perhaps my sample size of repentant people has been inadequate,
AB> but I am an empiricist, inclined to go with whatever evidence I have.
Based on your statement, I would venture to guess you haven't
encountered any repentant people at all. You've met people who pay lip
service to the idea, maybe.
The Greek word metanoia -- translated repentance -- means to make a
change, a transformation. It means to turn away from something, not
to mouth a pious, but insincere "Sorry 'bout that," and then keep
on doing the same thing.
I'm sure the semi-intellects will see this as opportunity to offer
their "Real True Christian" idiocy, but the fact remains ... God is
interested in what you do much more than what you say. Repentance
involves changing your life, and trying to make amends for any damage
you've cause. People who don't do that haven't repented, no matter what
they may say.
... Pull the other one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: RONALD VASS
|To: NORBERT SYKES
|Sub: Lanning Document 11/11
|Date: 02 Apr 96 10:48:00
EID:d9a9 20825600
NS>-- a. MINIMIZE SATANIC/OCCULT ASPECT.
NS>There are those who claim that one of the major reasons more of
NS>these cases have not been successfully prosecuted is that the
NS>satanic/occult aspect has not been aggressively pursued. One state
NS>has even introduced legislation creating added penalties when
Post 1 to 11 ,made it as far as Brantford , Ontario: Canada
since i see that now and then your replys have gone into the
black hole of Fido. Going by your statement ,prior to these
posting.
I have forward the abuse posting to a local OPP bbs sysop.
As a side note , i will be placeing it also in the occult/reglious
file area , i keep on my own bbs. Your name removed of course.
Unless i hear other wise , as to the forward post to our local
cop , i left your bbs node address and name , in case ,he wants to
ask for more ideas or info. Hope you don't mind on that.
I'm not even sure you will see this ,since most replys , send from
here never seem to get to who they were send to. .
ron.
Thank You
___
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|From: RONALD VASS
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:31:00
EID:c7dd 20825be0
MG>A couple people have asked me to post this as a f.a.q. file to t.o.
So here
MG>goes. First, I'll present a *partial* list of known transitional fossils,
MG>compiled from Colbert's _Evolution of the Vertebrates_ (ref at end).
Also
MG>at the end I have a short note about the significance of "transitional
MG>fossils".
MG>[We start off with primitive jawless fish.]
MG>Transition from primitive jawless fish to sharks, skates, and rays:
MG>Cladoselachians (e.g., _Cladoselache_).
MG>Hybodonts (e.g. _Hybodus_)
MG>Heterodonts (e.g. _Heterodontus_)
MG>Hexanchids (e.g. _Chlamydoselache_)
MG>Transition from primitive bony fish to holostean fish:
MG>Palaeoniscoids (e.g. _Cheirolepis_); living chondrosteans such as
MG> _Polypterus_ and _Calamoichthys_, and also the living acipenseroid
MG> chondrosteans such as sturgeons and paddlefishes.
MG>Primitive holosteans such as _Semionotus_.
MG>Transition from holostean fish to advanced teleost fish:
MG>Leptolepidomorphs, esp. _Leptolepis_, an excellent holostean-teleost
MG> intermediate
MG>Elopomorphs, both fossil and living (tarpons, eels)
MG>Clupeomorphs (e.g. _Diplomystus_)
MG>Osteoglossomorphs (e.g. _Portheus_)
MG>Protacanthopterygians
When you post these pearls of wisdom , and i know this is going to
make more work for a busy person ,could you please split them
to a packet no more then a couple of 100 lines or so. The Hub i get mail
from seems to cut off these post at the 200 line mark or so.
When truth as we currently know it come from a Pro. such as your self
,i collect them and put them in a free file area for download ,for
anyone who wants to get them.
If your bbs or node/hub , have these choice of wisdom as a FREQ request
could you also give that info.
Pain in ass , aren't i.
Thank You.
ron.
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:39:00
EID:cafb 2082b4e0
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00189972
Fredric,
FR>DR>2) The authors of _Matthew,_ _Luke,_ _John,_ and
FR>DR> _Mark_ are unknown: they are anonimous works,
FR>DR> written by people who never met Jesus because
FR>DR> they were not alive at the time. The best one
FR>DR> may say is that one of two of them were writen
FR>DR> by followers of a deciple.
FR>
FR>lb> No, your being silly. Internal evidence from the letters, as well
FR>lb> as accounts of writtings about them from the early church does indicate
FR>lb> that who we say wrote these letters are the ones that did write them.
FR>lb> John and Matthew were apostles, Mark and Luke lived and worked with
FR>lb> several of the apostles soon after the death of Jesus.
FR>
FR>You are a liar. "Internal evidence" shows that the conflicting pieces
of
FR>mythologies were simply different versions which attempted to correct
FR>ideological, econonomic, and social problems at the times of their revisions.
FR>All the books in the classical Christanic mythologies are anonymous
FR>forgeries.
First of all, it is true that each Gospil was written to show a
different view point of the life of Jesus, but just because they are
different does not make them untrue. Matthew was writting to a Jewish
group, and so tryed to show how Jesus related to the Old Testement
prophacy. Luke was a doctor and also wrote to a Greek named Theophilus,
and tryed to show the man Jesus and John and tryed to show the Godliness
of Jesus. So, each man wrote from a different veiw point, to show the
many sides of Jesus.
Secondly, the statement that all of the books are anonymous
forgeries cannot be defended. Most of the letters from Paul as well as
Peter and James are signed and are in agreement with the actions that
took place in Acts as well as contempory Historic documents. Just from
the discription of the life of the people, the places that are discribed
and the actions that took place, places the documents before 100 AD.
FR>No one know who actually wrote them. Schollars label the fragments which
FR>appear to be written by the same individual according to a letter of
the
FR>English alphabet. Thus "Q" is one of the authors of the myths, as is
"P" and
FR>"G" and "J."
You've confused Old and New Testement myths. Some have proposed a Q
document to explain the simularities between the gospils of Matthew,
Mark and Luke. This Document was suppose to have recorded some of the
sayings of Jesus and would have been dated within 20 years of the death
of Jesus. But, the P, G, and J is supposed additions made to the first
5 books of the OLD TESTEMENT, not the new. Supposely, the priest, Law
Givers and ruling class made additions to these books to support their
beliefs. This theory has fallen from general favor. But, they have
nouthing to do with the New Testement.
FR>Lastly, none of the myths were written during the alleged life time of
the
FR>so-called "Jesus" mythos. Schollars date the oldest known fragment to
be at
FR>MINIMUM 40 years after the alleged death -- a full life time for individuals
FR>of that period.
I agree that the oldest known fragments are more that 40 years older
that the death of Jesus, but none of them have been shown to be the
original. I also agree that none of them were written during the life
of Jesus. I also agree that Mark and Luke did not know Jesus, they were
younger that Jesus would have been, but their lives overlapped that of
the Apostles, and they got their information from them. Matthew andd
John though did travel and live with Jesus, and wrote from personal
accounts of their experiences. Tradition has it that John died after
100 AD at a very advanced age (80 -100 years old). While I agree that
the AVERAGE age of the people back then was around 45 years, there is a
lot of other accounts from that time of people that lived 70, 80, 100
years, so it is not impossible.
FR>Try actually LEARNING about the origins of the classical Christanic
FR>mythologies, Larry. There's no need to profess an ignorance when it's
FR>easilly displaced with learning.
Accually, I have tryed. I came to religion at the age of 36. I
have a science background and tend to believe only things that I can
measure and see. Its taken me 6 years of research and experiencing the
things that God can do in a persons life to finally believe that this
book we call the Bible is true and discribes the things it says it does.
You see, I am not ignorant, I have not just excepted the line that the
church has feed me, I have read discussions of why the bible is true and
also why the bible is not true, and then descided for myself.
If you can show me how the bible is a forgery and a fack, and not
just because you don't except that Jesus rose again, then I would be
willing to listen.
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: children
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:39:00
EID:32ff 2082b4e0
MSGID: 1:3615/51 00189988
Hi again Fredric,
FR>lb> So, you are saying that treating others as well as we would like
to
FR>lb> be treated is a bad thing? I pitty the people that has to be around
FR>
FR>Such an ideology is evil. That's one of the reasons why the Christanic
death
FR>cult has the bloody history that it has.
FR>
FR>A far better moral and ethical ideal would be to treat others as they
would
FR>like to be treated. Try that. Except that were such an obviously superior
FR>ideal used, the Christanic death cult would have disappeared long ago.
I always like the way John records this commandment;
"Love each other as I have Loved you"
Personnally, I don't see how you version is any better than the
"golden rule" except that I do agree that a lot of people mis-states it
into 'do unto others before they do onto you'. But, I do agree that
this world would be a lot better place if we all treated each other as
they would like to be treated, loving them as we love ourselves. We
would definitely have a lot less name calling going on in these
messages, wouldn't we?
Larry Bevard
___
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|From: Larry Bevard
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Claims of deity construc
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:39:00
EID:b73a 2082b4e0
MSGID: 1:3615/51 0018999f
Hi Fredric,
FR> > The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something
FR>> like the big bang are enormous...I think clearly there are
FR>> religious implications whenever you start to discuss the origins
FR>> of the universe. There must be religious overtones. But I
FR>> think scientists prefer to shy away from the religious side of
it.
First of all, you forgot to include who wrote this, It was not me.
FR>The religious implications are highly negative toward the continued belief
in
FR>the occult, Larry.
I very much agree, but that does not mean that it doesn't have,
quantumtatively speaking.
FR>The odds of a universe like ours emerging out of the so-
FR>called "Big Bang" is exactly 1:1 -- it happened. PRIOR to the expansion
of
FR>the universe, however, the odds are enormous that the folding of dimentional
FR>space and propagation of probability waves exactly as we see them now.
It's
FR>no
FR>different than flipping a coin 10,000 times and writing down the results.
FR>After
FR>it happens the odds are 1:1 whereas if you try to flip the coin 10,000
times
FR>again, the odds of getting the exact same sequence you're looking for
are
FR>enormous.
This is a very different way of stating that the universe is the way
it is because that is what we observe. Carl Sagan once supported a view
that the universe has had an infinite starts and stops until it has
arrieved at the present form, but the falicy of that is it would only
take one set of happenings that would have caused the universe to
continue to expand and thus stop the whole system. I personnally don't
get your example and how it relates to the discussion. If there was an
infinite possiblity of the starting conditions, it would not figure that
all of them would result in the same type of universe, no other
astro-physist would agree with this. but, if you are saying that no
matter how it started, the universe always had to follow the LAWS OF
NATURE and thus end up like it is, again I can point to a lot of
astro-physist that disagree. Please expain.
FR>I suspect that, because you're a Christian, you're incapable of understanding
FR>the scientific truths as well as the function of probabilities. No offence
FR>intended.
As a christian, no taken, but as a student of astronomy (and also
with a physical Science degree with a minor in math) I do resemble that.
But, then answer this question, where did the original material
and/or energy come from?
Larry Bevard
___
* UniQWK v4.1 * The Windows Mail Reader
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Warts
|Date: 01 Apr 96 16:55:42
EID:bbbd 208186e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 3160B98F
LB> Sure, but -- in a public restaurant? I have to confess - - I'm still
LB> gaggingover that one!
Ohhhhh I wasn't doing it where anyone except my partner and one friend could
see. They tattled on me. I think the timing was mostly accountable by caffeine
overload and sleep deprivation. However, suprisingly there's been no return
of the warts.
(Sorry to have set off a timid tummy. I'm an x-physiology/anatomy teacher
and often forget that the topics are viewed differently by others.)
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Warts
|Date: 02 Apr 96 10:02:49
EID:14c4 20825040
MSGID: 1:352/266 316145B0
AS> As long as you sterilize the knife first. Otherwise, it could be alot
AS> worse...
Hehehehe actually, I spent a few years in a research setting. I did a lot
of small animal surgery... I still remember the basics. No infection, no
Dr. Bill, and no warts. However, it's definitely one of those things not
to be done by everyone. You know, "Kiddies do not try this at home."
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Perspectives
|Date: 02 Apr 96 10:12:46
EID:1caf 20825180
MSGID: 1:352/266 316145B1
AS> but one can admire and even emulate part of a tradition without
AS> adopting its main
AS> thrust.
I think that's kind of my basic approach. I learn where I can.
AS> Okay. Then, as you put together the "pieces" you discern from various
AS> religions, how can you discount your own bias? Would you not,
Discount it? I acknowledge it. Everyone has certain bias's. Even when
one chooses a particular faith that is an exercise that may reflect a persons
bias and choices. Everyone decides what faith to be, or whether to be
any or not.... soooo I just use the smogassboard approach rather than ordering
a single dinner plan... I still go away satisfied, and have enjoyed the
variety. This approach isn't suited to everyone, some people prefer to
have the same lunch every day at the same restaurant.
AS> you not have a vision of God that is more your construct than
AS> anything actual?
That is what all of us do anyway. Talk to three different people about
any religion and you can only receive their perspectives. The view of God
varies with the person describing Him/Her.
AS> all-inclusive, you will end up saying God is really...nothing in
AS> particular.
Or, everything. Or you may reject the whole premise.... and that is each
persons privilege.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Gerry Wagoner
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: evidence...
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:30:00
EID:df7e 2082b3c0
MSGID: 1:110/725.0 89533F57
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 93-0468
Hi Preston.
Allow me to weigh in on this.
PS>The fact that it speaks of a global flood of which there is no evidence
PS>is a good starter.
You're saying there is no empirical evidence that this planet endured a
total flood? Ahem.
You've obviously never floated down the Rhine river. Or climbed Mt.
Pilatus on Switzerland. Or talked to "Dinosaur Bob" from Montana...
Now then.
Great masses of rock are thrown up so that their original horizontal
sediment layers are resting at a 45-52 degree angle..all along the Rhine
River in Germany for one.. Something from below burst upwards, moving
the great rock layers into the position they now occpy. The Bible says
"and the fountains of the deep were broken up." UP. Yes indeed.
There are seashells embedded in the limestone particulate on many of the
highest mountains on Earth. I've seen them. Total water enscapulation
is the unavoidable conclusion for their presence at 14,000'. Nough
said.
Dinosaur Bob, (who has made numerous valuable fossil discoveries --
some of which are in the Smithsonian..) told me in early 1991 that all
of the fossil discoveries extant to date share one common denominator:
Their heads are tilted way back and up. So? This is the classic
posture of a drowning victim. Ahem.
Consider these things, my friend.
Gerry C. Wagoner Jr.
---
* SLMR 2.1a * If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: 3-Angels bbs Covington,Oh 513-473-5465 1:110/725 (1:110/725.0)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 02 Apr 96 06:34:06
EID:7e41 20823440
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b17f29
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 649a4321
On Mar 31 12:30 96, Martin Goldberg of 1:124/9005.221 wrote:
JH>> Mind you, I'm not talking about Screwy Lewie's rank and file,
JH>> but his staff of bodygaurds: the 'Fruit of Islam' originally
JH>> organized by Malcolm X (who was later assassinated by them).
MG> I was just interested in the comment. If true, it is a
MG> pretty dangerous situation.
I'm convinced that the situation is indeed dangerous.
If it's any consolation, a large portion of Farrakhan's energy
and resources have to be spent on watching his own back. He
rose to leadership in the Nation of Islam by the old fashioned
methods of trechery and murder (there is little room for doubt in
my mind that he was responsible for the death of Malcolm X). He
is subject to being diposed by the same methods.
MG> Farrakhan is another loose cannon, no more sane than Steve
MG> Winter or Russ Wuertz. To have this kind of power behind him
MG> with a well trained force is almost Hitleresque.
The comparison between the brown shirts and the Fruit of Islam I
think is a valid one. However, Hitler had several things going
for him that Farrakhan does not have by being a member of a
minority. Even with moves like the Million Man March, his
membership roles are probably at their peak. He can increase
somewhat by turning marginal supporters into 'true believers',
but that will only bring him a modest increase in numbers. He has
pretty much exhausted the pool he can recruit from.
But I wouldn't make the comparison to Winter or Russ Wuertz,
rather I'd pair him up with Jim Jones, David Koresh and others
who have looked upon their followers as a disposable commodity.
He's intent on a violent "solution". And like the Ghost Shirt
Societies of the American Indians will probably end up by
sending a number of his followers to their dooms against
superior numbers.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Pam Gray
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:46:08
EID:8753 20825dc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b42b72
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 2e8f0709
On Apr 01 14:25 96, Pam Gray of 1:2424/1004 wrote:
PG> Boni,
PG> Anyway easter is coming up... I know you are not Christian
PG> however do you do anything easterlike for your little
PG> nieces or nephews (do you have any I forgot)!
She smears a melted chocolate bunny all over her body and sticks
a colored egg up her ass?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Or maybe just sugar
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:53:32
EID:b9cc 20825ea0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b43c5b
On Mar 26 14:07 96, Jim Germiquet of 1:250/618 wrote:
JG> I am glad I twitted out those people who would just ridicule my
JG> remarks and not ask me what I meant.
What do you mean, asshole?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: need quote
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:55:48
EID:f6dd 20825ee0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b440a2
On Mar 26 17:55 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
JB> Where do I find the verse that gives the sin of Sodom as
JB> that of not sharing with her neighbors?
JB> My bible is paper...not one of those nifty electronic ones
JB> with a search engine.
16th chapter of Ezekiel.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: NEED QUOTE
|Date: 02 Apr 96 11:57:30
EID:df8a 20825f20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b4481b
REPLY: 1:116/19 0361E2D6
On Mar 30 03:02 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
JB>> My bible is paper...not one of those nifty electronic ones
JB>> with a search engine.
AS> I use a paper Bible, but I go a Topical one to go
AS> with it.
The KJV is in the public domain and available for ftp from a
variety of sites.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 02 Apr 96 12:20:36
EID:32b5 20826280
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b49224
REPLY: 1:116/19 04242742
On Mar 25 04:02 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
DW>> I'm sure you're relieved to know that the Oilers are
DW>> coming to Nashville.
AS> And we're paying to have the stadium built, to boot.
And you get BUD ADAMS (evil laugh).
AS> Oh, I suppose it will eventually earn us money.
Really? Do you have a rodeo?
I'd really like to see US mayors (and their constituents) tell
professional sports promoters to build their own damned
facilities. The idea of public moneys going to support private
ventures that return very little to the local economy just
makes my blood boil. Yes, restaurants and hotels close to the
facility do benefit some, but if the intention is to support these
businesses there are far more efficient ways to do so. Unless you
attract a political party's national convention or some other
monster-scale event you'll never come close to breaking even.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Harvest Moon Eclipse
|Date: 02 Apr 96 17:59:26
EID:b0ea 20828f60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b79b6d
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89530E3D
On Apr 01 08:55 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
DC> ! Originally By: Richard Clark
DC>
DC> Based on information by the historian Josephus, king Herod died
DC> after the lunar eclipse in March 4bc, but before the Passover at
DC> the next full moon in April 4bc. That tends to fix the date of
DC> the birth of Christ in early Autumn 5BC. If that is correct,
DC> Autumn 1996 marks the completion of 2000 years since the birth
DC> of Christ, and also the completion of 6000 years since the time
DC> of the creation, presumed to be 4000 years before Christ's
DC> birth. Therefore Autumn 1996 would be the beginning of the (7th)
DC> "Sabbath" MILLENIUM, "the Lord's day".
Wheee! It's hasn't even been two years since the last
end-of-the-world.
Why is it these guys always pick fall for the end of the world?
DC> The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with us all. Amen.
DC> --Richard
That's just fucking great. We've been blessed by a dick.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Lanning Document 1/11
|Date: 02 Apr 96 18:04:36
EID:fc48 20829080
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b7a4ca
On Mar 26 19:06 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
NS> Investigator Guide to Allegations of "Ritual" Child Abuse.
NS> by Kenneth Lanning, National Center for the Analysis of Violent
NS> Crime, FBI Academy, 1992.
WOW! that was great! In fact, it was so damned good that one person
I showed it to is wondering if it isn't a hoax.
Do you know how one could go about getting a copy of the complete
document?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 02 Apr 96 18:12:19
EID:a011 20829180
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64b7bd95
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 315ffa3d
On Mar 30 22:49 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
JH>> Down here they have the annual blessling of the Shrimp
JH>> Feet. It's really quite a sight to see all those
JH>> crustaceans waving their scaley little apendages above the
JH>> water line in order to be blessed.
SA> Shrimp's feet?
The blessing of the Shrimp FLEET is an annual event down here.
It's an excuse to go down to the docks, drink beer, eat stuffed
shrimp and look at boats. While all of this is going on a cleric
comes out and mumbles something holy over the boats.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 03 Apr 96 01:06:46
EID:e4f0 208308c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64bb8442
REPLY: 1:116/19 0474C3C8
On Mar 25 09:08 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> Certainly there are times when I think we could use a
AS> spiritual checkup every so often. Where I could wish the
AS> Great Physician gave us some further medicine.
The problem is there are just too many people who are too
damned eager to give everyone Evangelical Enemas.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose One
|Date: 03 Apr 96 01:19:40
EID:45cc 20830a60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64bbc141
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 42326cab
On Mar 27 18:46 96, Marilyn Burge of 1:105/40.666 wrote:
MB> While what you say is true, may I ask this? Do you think the
MB> First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution also protects atheists?
MB> It doesn't mention them in the document; all it says is that we
MB> are free to practice religion without government concern or
MB> interference. Maybe you think that atheists give up their
MB> freedom where religion is concerned Do you? Or, is the null
MB> condition also covered by the First Amendment?
The First Amendment doesn't mention radio, television, cinema
or works of art either. Yet they are still protected by the
provisions for "speech" and "the press". Though it is not
explicitly in the Amendment, a freedom of expression can
be infered from the provisions for speech and the press.
Similarly the provision for freedom of religion infers a
freedom of conscience. Non-religious philosophies and
ideologies enjoy First Amendment protections just as
religions do. Communism is just as protected as Catholicism,
Pacifism is just as protected as Protestantism.
(I realize that a great number of legislators and enforcement
types haven't grasped these points yet.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Robert Pappas
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 03 Apr 96 01:37:58
EID:bc21 20830ca0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64bbc7a8
REPLY: 1:363/309 56f83f40
On Mar 27 20:14 96, Robert Pappas of 1:363/309 wrote:
RP> well i just got done having sex with a cat and did so this
RP> time shouting out "this is done for the glory of
RP> god"...well...it didnt feel any different from when i fucked
RP> the cat just for the hell of it...
Maybe if you changed your name to Claude Balls...
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Better then This!
|Date: 03 Apr 96 01:39:02
EID:880d 20830ce0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64bbcc48
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 153537c9
On Mar 27 21:28 96, Steve Rose of 1:109/601 wrote:
BJ>> Ok I was told by another person that he is a disciple of
BJ>> satan. I think his name is (J.j. Hitt)
JJH>> Oh dear... I think he's on to me...
SR> How could he be? The guy didn't even capitalize your
SR> middle initial. He's deluded!
Ssssshhhh....
Next thing you know, you'll be letting him know about the Secret
Message you get when you say my name backwards.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: BAHA'I
|Date: 03 Apr 96 01:58:00
EID:3e4e 20830f40
MSGID: 1:215/130 0003035f
In a message dated 03-30-96 Al Schroeder wrote to Martin Goldberg:
AS> I don't claim it to be the definitive evidence for God. But it cert
> is a step in the right direction. If God is, by definition, beyond ou
> reality, than the only chance of "observing" Him is by the effect He
> on our reality.
If it happened there was a more mundane explanation for your evidence, I
submit that it would not adversely affect your faith, correct?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..
|Date: 03 Apr 96 01:58:00
EID:e911 20830f40
MSGID: 1:215/130 00030368
In a message dated 04-01-96 Larry Bevard wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> MSGID: 1:3615/51 00183a44
> Elliott,
>
> EF>In a message dated 03-21-96 Larry Bevard wrote to Jim Germiquet:
> EF>
> EF>> As far as the Crusades
> EF>> goes, the main purpose of most of them was not religious, but wer
> EF>> money and power.
> EF>
> EF>
> EF>Were the children of the Childrens Crusade in it for the money and
> EF>too?
>
> I already said that the children's Crusade was different. But, it
> still had as a basis the power of the Church behind the consept.
> Admidantly, it was based on religious beliefs, but also look at the
> difference. The Children were sent unarmed, as a pure (so thought the
> Pope) force to show the power of God. It didn't work.
And your god didn't lift a finger to protect or help these children who
surely thought they were doing "God's Work."
Let me ask you - do you think any of those children prayed? Were their
prayers answered - do you think? What sort of lesson do you suppose your
god was teaching these devout, naive waifs as they set out to be
slaughtered, raped and forced into a life of slavery?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 03 Apr 96 01:58:00
EID:d0d2 20830f40
MSGID: 1:215/130 00030371
In a message dated 04-01-96 Larry Bevard wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> EF>But it isn't an either/or proposition. For instance if your god kno
> EF>future he knows, prior to his creation of each human, whether that
> EF>will _FREELY_ choose to obey or not. It would in no way deny free w
> EF>God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would choose sin
> EF>simply creates only those people who he knows will _freely_ choose
> EF>religiously correct path.
>
> How true, and I would have wished that he did. But, He knew that
> "all (would) fall short of the Glory of God." So, "if all have sinned
> then His choice was to create of to not create.
You miss my point. A poor choice of words on my part perhaps. Let me
re-phrase the above to say "It would in no way deny free will for
your God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would * end up in
hell * and simply create only those people who he knows will _freely_
choose religiously correct path.
The Bible
> states that before God even created us, He had it planned to send the
> Redeemer, Jesus, His only Son, to bring us all back to Him.
Sounds rather neurotic and manipulative to me. What would be the point
purposely creating us faulty (which he obviously did if he knew BEFORE he
made us we would require redeeming)?
> EF>
> EF>If he sees "several possible futures" then obviously he doesn't kno
> EF>will transpire and thus he is not omniscient. If he _does_ know whi
> EF>occur then the future must be set in stone. There is no way around
>
> Let's say He does see one future only. Does that make the future
> set is stone?
Let's put it this way. You are in heaven. God tells you that tomorrow, a
great earthquake will occur in New York. Will it occur? If something
happens to forestall it then either God lied to you or he was mistaken.
If
he was mistaken then obviously he didn't _fore_see the future accurately.
.
Or is it possible that God can change the future of
> people by coming into their lives and thus change the future.
Look. Either he knows what is going to transpire (Even that he is going
to
change the future - or not going to change the future) or he doesn't know.
If he KNOWS the future then the outcome is forgone.
>We tend to think linearly
> about time, but God is outside of time, and think as all time as now.
Interesting speculation, I suppose.
>
> EF>RH> And why cannot we repent AFTER death, when we have the informat
> EF>RH> needed to make a better choice?
>
> It would be nice wouldn't it.
Like to take a stab at addressing the issue of why not?
> EF>How would it help them if Hitler repented 5 minutes before death? Y
> EF>way I understand it, your god _would_ accept Hitler's sincere contr
> EF>at that point without regard to helping "those he killed in life".
>
> EF>AS> Can he do any good
> EF>AS> works that will amend what happened?
> EF>
> EF>Likewise, could he do sufficient good works 5 minutes before death?
>
> Let's take another example, that of Jeffery Dolmer.
What's wrong with this example?
>He was Baptis
> into the Lord just months before he was killed in prison. He knew tha
> he could never do enough to make up for all of the men and boys that h
> had killed and ate, he knew that even his death would not repay all of
> the suffering that he caused, but, Thank God, even his sins were
> forgiven by God, and I rest assured that he is in heaven now.
He might even have been doing the Lord's work. After all, the big guy
commissioned one heck of a lot of slaughter in the Bible - often of
completely innocent people too.
"And he smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked
into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and
threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had
smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." --1 Sam 6:19
> You see
> someone already died for all of our sins, no matter what they are or
> even what they will be.
Yes, I am aware of your religious belief. Forgive me if I'm not as
impressed with the concept of non-responsibility as you are.
>God accepted the death of Jesus as full payme
> for our sins, because we cannot do enough to earn our way to Heaven.
Yep. It takes bein' a good Christian like Jeffrey Dalmer to deserve
heavenly reward. I envy you - getting to spend all eternity with the
Dalmeister!
> So, yes if Hitler had repented and followed the Lord's command to be
> baptised, even 5 min. before his death, he would have been fully
> covered, his sins would not be held against him.
I'm glad you agree with my interpretation. Now, why couldn't Hitler have
been forgiven after death?
Does that mean that
> Jeffrey or Hitler then would not have to pay for their sins. No, they
> still would have to make reparparation for their sins. It is like if
> stoled your car, kill your wife and then found Jesus, I still would be
> accountable to pay for what I had done to hurt you, but according to
> God, He would say; "What Sin?"
>
> A lot to think about, isn't it?
Sure is. Now try this on for size. I, as an atheist, must too stand
accountable for "reparations." But unlike you, I am also accountable to
the person. It doesn't matter to you if your victim forgives you or not
-
your hypothetical God gives you a Get-Out-of-Guilt-Free card. HE forgives
you.
You are let off the emotional hook. What's more, Christianity encourages
people to sin. You say "all (would) fall short of the Glory of God." "all
have sinned." This is a built-in excuse. You were "born" in sin. The devil
always tempting you, so OF COURSE you are going to sin!
When you do, your imaginary god will once more let you off the hook. No
need ever to feel guilty! And when the urge strikes, go out and sin
again.
I mean, Lord knows: you WILL sin again, won't you?
Anyway, the idea that someone or something can take responsibility for our
behavior is the same logic (i.e., Biblical) that punishes the children (to
four generations) for the sins of the father. It is the same logic that
punishes accidental "sin."
The God you postulate called two she bears out of the woods to dismember
42 children for the crime of teasing his prophet. He orders the slaughter
of helpless women and children.
Your religion teaches that even good people who don't believe will burn
in
Hell for an eternity.
Ah, but who DO we find in heaven? Why depraved, murdering, psychopaths
like Jeffrey Dalmer and Adolph Hitler, that's who!
Ah, thanks but no thanks.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: All
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 03 Apr 96 00:25:59
EID:c718 20830320
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31620be8
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Paul Crouch, Hal Lindsey, and the rest of the cult at Trinity, are an
abomination to God. We are truly living in the last days.
The number 666 in Hebrew stands for Caeser Nero. Nero committed suicide
by stabbing himself in the throat (wounded head of the beast). We are
now approaching the end of the millennium (age of the Gentiles). The
establishment of Israel as a State indicates this is true.
At the end of the 1000 years Satan will seduce the nations of the earth,
prior to the end of the world - ez.38,39,40;rv.20:7-15.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: The Raven
|To: ryan shaw
|Sub: alt.fan.steve-winter
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:13:21
EID:c39d 207fa1a0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 15c42000
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 31622920
rs> There is new newsgroup called alt.fan.steve-winter, I kid you not.
No fucking way... you have *got* to be joking...
Jack Butler
... Fiscally conservative. Socially liberal.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: The Raven
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:15:25
EID:969b 207fa1e0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 315c3887
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 31622921
SA> Depends. Most US states seem to have a drinking age of about 21, due
to
SA> Reagan's insistence that any state with a lower age can't get some
SA> government tax benefit or another.
It was highway money. States are constantly repairing and upgrading the
roads in this country (I'm in Florida, by the way), and the Fed helps with
the funding...
SA> Frankly, I think Quebec is more right to have their age set at 18 -
even
SA> though I am ACUTELY aware of the problems caused by novice drinkers
SA> running wild (but anyone at any age can be assholes on alcohol) -
SA> because, at 18, they have every other right available to them, including
SA> joining the military, voting, living on their own, driving, being
SA> responsible for debt and bound by contracts, etc.
My point in this debate, also. At 18, you can vote and fight and die
for your country, but you can't have a beer? Yeah, that makes a lot of
sense... the biggest argument against lowering the drinking age is usually
"So you think teenagers dying on the highways is a good idea?" (A
non-sequitor to me, but there it is.) The truth of the matter is that the
insurance companies are behind it. Teens already are the worst group for
auto mishaps. Liquor them up and things should really slam.
I heard one woman equate lowering the drinking age to repealing the
DWI laws, which makes no sense to me. If it were up to me, I'd lower the
drinking age and more tightly enforce the DWI laws...
SA> As for marijuana
<...>
SA> I see no reason why the one is legal for public consumption, but the
SA> other is not for home consumption.
This is another issue that starts people spouting non sequitors. For
some reason, the legalization of marijuana amounts to allowing crack junkies
to run the streets unimpeded...
Jack Butler
... "Holy ground, Highlander!" -- The Kurgan
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|From: The Raven
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: MAD COWS
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:31:22
EID:9e11 207fa3e0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6482fe66
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 31622922
JH> Do you have any comments or observations on BSE (Mad Cow
JH> Disease) and "Prionic diseases". Of particular interest is
JH> the theory that such diseases (including CJD and Kuru) are
JH> transmitted without the benefit or use of any genetic
JH> material.
MG> To tell you the truth, I do not know. I only heard of "MCD" yesterday
MG> as russian beef was no longer imported. I'll have to do a search on
MG> this stuff and get back to you. Have to wait until Monday as I have
MG> no Internet access here at the house.
MG> I do know of some cases of RNA splicing in what is termed a
MG> nucleophilic reaction in order to "infect" a cell but the way that you
MG> describe this sounds more like a protein in action. Let you know next
MG> week.
This is from my brother Peter (the research biologist):
"Okay, here's what it means." [note: I called him up and asked "What is
a prionic disease"; his first reaction was `That's a little bit of a way
out
of Constitutional law, isn't it?'] "You know how we all thought that virii
were the simplest life forms? Prions may or may not be lifeforms, but they
are simpler than a virus. They are made of single or double protein chains,
not full DNA molecules, but chunks of them. But they act a lot like a virus."
Quote, unquote.
Jack Butler
... "The gods have their own rules." -- Ovid
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: woids
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:24:00
EID:35ff 207fa300
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89524387
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Note that while "bird" is the most preferable translation, "that
MH> flieth" or "flying" are also offered. And note that it's derived
MH> from H5774. This is what Strong's says about that:
MG> This is what I wanted to hear from you.
MH> 5774. 'uwph, oof; a prim, root; to cover (with wings or
MH> obscurity); hence (as denom. from H5775) to fly; also (by
MH> impl. of dimness) to faint (from the darkness of
MH> swooning):--brandish, be (wax) faint, flee away, fly
MH> (away--, X set, shine forth, weary.
MG> Yet the root is not what we are discussing. If you say that the
MG> hebrew word used was this one, I believe it.
The root is a verb, Martin. The word in question is a noun derived from
the verb.
MG> yet both my source gives
MG> its meaning as "bird" and your source gives a preferential meaning of
MG> "bird". Your earlier claim was that it was a more general term and
MG> that it really did nto mean "bird" at all.
It does not have to mean bird, even if that is the preferred meaning.
As the collective referent for a list of seven or eight birds and one
non-bird, it doesn't seem incorrect, now does it?
MH> This is all I can say on the matter -- other than that the whole
MH> argument is pretty silly.
MG> I don't think so. We are trying to show those that believe every word
MG> int he bible that some of it is incorrect. Thsi is a prime example,
MG> along with the others that we ahve discussed.
Except that this example, and the others I've seen discussed, are
more indiciative of the anal retention factor of the skeptic than
anything else. This example is not an error UNLESS you insist that a
word MUST mean whatever is it's preferred definition, even if that's
not the only definition, every time it's used, no matter the context.
... Pull the other one.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Guards
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:29:00
EID:6706 207fa3a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89524388
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>
MH> MH> Now, as for faking the missing body -- in what way could that be
MH> MH>done under the circumstances -- high profile case, guarded tomb,
MH> MH>etc. -- that would explain the disciples' later fervor and
MH> MH>dedication to the point of martyrdom?
MH>
MH> KDM> Why would they guard the tomb to begin with?
MH>
MH> Seems like we've been all through this before, but the explanation
MH>is simple, and recorded in Matthew's gospel:
KDM> [ . . . ]
MH> They posted the guard to prevent exactly the kind of deception
MH>you're suggesting occurred.
This is from a book that can be considered an biased source at
KDM> best, Mike.
Sigh yourself, Kevin. You're smarter than this. You asked "why would
the guard the tomb," and I gave you a logical, reasonable answer.
If I had related the scenario without reference to the source (assuming
you didn't already know it) you'd probably agree it makes sense.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Notices
|Date: 31 Mar 96 20:32:00
EID:8388 207fa400
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89524389
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KDM> Yes, but according to the verse, they were speaking to learned
MH> KDM> men of many cultures. Why did none of these write of this
MH> KDM> event?
MH> Actually, it says nothing about "learned men."
KDM> Different versions, I guess.
Really? Which version uses the phrase "learned men?" I consulted
several, and none said anything much more specific than "crowd." King
Jimmy came closest, with "devout men."
MH> Only "a crowd." Now, as for why no one else recorded the event, I
MH>don't know. Perhaps some did, but their records were simply personal
MH> correspondence which -- like virtually all personal correspondence
MH>of ancient times -- wasn't preserved for posterity.
KDM> But all the events? If this was the only miracle, I could understand
KDM> it. But I can't believe that not one person who wasn't a disciple
KDM> recorded *one* of the miracles, be it the raising of the dead, water
KDM> into wine, feeding of the multitudes . . .
And again, how do you know people didn't? How many personal writings
have survived 2,000 years? Unless people took steps to make sure they
were preserved, they most likely wouldn't have survived. Yet because it
is the church which has preserved the Christian writings, you dismiss
them as "biased."
That's not terribly intellectually honest, IMO. The people who record
events are those who take an interest in those events. By definition,
any account is biased.
... To laugh well is to live well.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: elvis lution
|Date: 01 Apr 96 10:36:00
EID:e3cd 20815480
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8952438A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Which is what you'd expect if they were specially created and have
MH> varied only within kind.
ML> Define, in a biologically, zoologically and taxonomically valid
ML> manner the term "kind"; then we can commence with your
ML> immolation.
As I told the other Martin, I'm not interested in debating this issue
with scientists, for three main reasons:
1. You WOULD immolate me, even if you were wrong, simply by knowing the
field better than I do.
2. Your opinion would carry more weight than mine, even if you're
wrong, because you are (1) a scientist, and (2) a scientist who accepts
the scientific orthodoxy. (As opposed to being a her