God Damned Fundies!
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:24:10
EID:86e0 2084a300
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d34bab
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64b17f29
JH> minority. Even with moves like the Million Man March, his
JH> membership roles are probably at their peak. He can increase
JH> somewhat by turning marginal supporters into 'true believers',
JH> but that will only bring him a modest increase in numbers. He
JH> has pretty much exhausted the pool he can recruit from.
I dunno. The MMM even had some people that hated Farrakhan (like myself)
saying "This is the kind of thing that black men need to perhaps undo their
stereotype. What Louis didn't do was to capatilize more on it after the
end.
JH> But I wouldn't make the comparison to Winter or Russ Wuertz,
JH> rather I'd pair him up with Jim Jones, David Koresh and others
JH> who have looked upon their followers as a disposable commodity.
Screwballs are screwballs to me.
JH> Societies of the American Indians will probably end up by
JH> sending a number of his followers to their dooms against
JH> superior numbers.
Usually, those are relatively small numbers of individuals. I hope that
he deosn't lead the entire black race to theri ultimate demise for a principle.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Gerry Wagoner
|Sub: evidence...
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:30:12
EID:a399 2084a3c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3653f
REPLY: 1:110/725.0 89533F57
This is too good.....
GW> You've obviously never floated down the Rhine river. Or climbed
GW> Mt. Pilatus on Switzerland. Or talked to "Dinosaur Bob" from
GW> Montana... Now then.
I have. Both of them. Although I never heard of "Dino Bob".
GW> Great masses of rock are thrown up so that their original
GW> horizontal sediment layers are resting at a 45-52 degree
GW> angle..all along the Rhine River in Germany for one..
GW> Something from below burst upwards, moving the great rock
GW> layers into the position they now occpy. The Bible says "and
GW> the fountains of the deep were broken up." UP. Yes indeed.
This, my fine young fellow, is not evidence. This is (dare I say it yet
again?) a wild assed guess. You do not simply decide that wnat you wnat
to BE evidence IS evidence. I dare you to read a geology text and find
out just why the rocks were upthrust in such a manner. When our resident
geologist returns next month from Russia, you can ask him. He can tell
you. However, in the interim, why not give us some good solid scientific
data on why you might be right.
GW> There are seashells embedded in the limestone particulate on many
GW> of the highest mountains on Earth. I've seen them. Total
GW> water enscapulation is the unavoidable conclusion for their
GW> presence at 14,000'. Nough
GW> said.
Waitaminute. You were just talking about rock upthrust and now you want
to believe that every mountain on earth was covered with wqter? Which is
it, Lad?
GW> Dinosaur Bob, (who has made numerous valuable fossil discoveries
GW> -- some of which are in the Smithsonian..) told me in early
GW> 1991 that all of the fossil discoveries extant to date share
GW> one common denominator: Their heads are tilted way back and
GW> up. So? This is the classic posture of a drowning victim.
This is nonsense. Are you trying to tell us that drowning is the ONLY reason
for the death of the dinosaurs? Are you really this stupid? could you
please document this statement? Surely, somone as eminent int he field
as you suggest thta he is has some published data around in a refereed technical
journal.
GW> Consider these things, my friend.
The only thing I can consider you is a fool.
Tell me why dinosaur fossils have been found in strata with K/Ar dating
of over 65,000,000 years.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: evil
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:38:54
EID:e325 2084a4c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d36966
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89534395
AB>> Why so? Isn't Utopia a logically possible world? Utopia
AB>> is, you'll remember, a world in which everybody is
AB>> completely free. Why is this not logically possible? And
AB>> if it is, why didn't God choose that world to create?
I repeat. It is NOT impossible for the almightly to overcome this. Perfection
is perfection. Why not just admit it. It would be a lot easier.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: RONALD VASS
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:39:50
EID:73ff 2084a4e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d37368
MG>>Protacanthopterygians
RV> When you post these pearls of wisdom , and i know this is going
RV> to make more work for a busy person ,could you
RV> please split them to a packet no more then a couple of 100
RV> lines or so. The Hub i get mail from seems to cut off these
RV> post at the 200 line mark or so. When truth as we currently
RV> know it come from a Pro. such as your self ,i collect them
RV> and put them in a free file area for download ,for anyone who
RV> wants to get them.
Actually, this is a post that I have on my disk that I post from time to
time when the stupid of the stupid show up. when it was first posted, I
looked up the reference at the library at the med school where I work, just
to authenticate it. While I don't expect many to really read it all, I
post it just to demonstrate that transitional fossils are relatively abundant
and not absent like some claim.
In this case, it was posted to tome moron who I doubt caould read, much
less understand it. It was in response to his onstatn waste of bandwidth
by posting philosophical germs that no one reads.
As I post from a point, I don't have any way to set it up for freq. I might
could clean it up as a text file and give it to my bossnode and let him
do it as he does his other HOLYSMOKE files.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: woids
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:44:39
EID:79da 2084a580
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3815d
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524387
MH> It does not have to mean bird, even if that is the preferred
MH> meaning. As the collective referent for a list of seven or
MH> eight birds and one non-bird, it doesn't seem incorrect, now
MH> does it?
My point, which you deleted, was that you insisted that it meant "flying
things". This is nto the case. The preferred meaning is "bird". It looks
like a deliberate attempt to mislead us.
MG>> I don't think so. We are trying to show those that believe
MG>> every word int he bible that some of it is incorrect. Thsi
MG>> is a prime example, along with the others that we ahve
MG>> discussed.
MH> Except that this example, and the others I've seen discussed,
MH> are more indiciative of the anal retention factor of the
MH> skeptic than anything else. This example is not an error
MH> UNLESS you insist that a word MUST mean whatever is it's
MH> preferred definition, even if that's not the only
MH> definition, every time it's used, no matter the context.
I don't doubt that some of the examples cited are cases of mistaken identity.
Your claim that they meant "flying things" may be valid, although it would
seem, on the face of things, that theymeant "bird". However, there is plenty
in the bible that is wrong, such as the flood, the parting of the Red Sea,
the pillar of fire, the plages of Egyptthe flood, the parting of the Red
Sea, the talking snakes and so forth. Pi=3.0? I don't hink so.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Pascal's Wager
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:52:49
EID:7e76 2084a680
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d38a9f
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524392
MH> Then, and only then, he offers his wager. When it is offered in
MH> isolation, as it is here, it opens the door for the question of
MH> "How do you know which God it is that exists?" But when
MH> offered in its original context, that question has already
MH> been dealt with and settled.
Certainly, this would make sense to a believer. Could you give me the exact
title of the book or part of a book so I can get ahold of it?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: dating
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:59:29
EID:344d 2084a760
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3a425
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524394
MH> Two big questions! First, how radiometric decay works... There
MH> are a large number of species of atoms which have unstable
Saved to disk for Leipzig's return. There are two things on his critique
that I would address, however.
1. Differences in accumulation of 14C varies over time. The vatiations
are no calculated on a year by year basis, but in ages of many years. In
other words, climactic changes and so forth are held in account when dating
is done. A parent/daughter ratio might indicate a certain number of years
in one strata and another answer if found in a different strata. This is
aided by the fact that, as your freind points out, the rate of decay is
constant.
2. Unless I read him wrong, he seems to be claiming that these ratios are
performed on the rock strata itself. It is not. Carbon is the main atom
found in organic material. It is this which is sated giving the number
of years ago that that particular stratum was laid down.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Rob's various replies
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:05:29
EID:7dbf 2084a8a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3a995
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524395
RB>> It's hard to believe God would bother mending your
RB>> broken foot while millions of children go starving.
MH> More to the point, atheists are constantly demanding evidence.
MH> Yet here, offered someone's personal testimony -- not "a
MH> friend of a friend" -- Rob declines the opportunity to
MH> investigate it and simply dismisses it.
Does it seem likely to you that god lets millions starve and fixes this
relatively minor problem?
Atheists have tons of evidence that occurances in the bible never did occur.
There is huge amout of evidence that the laws of nature are followed and
that miracles do not happen.
What other evidence would you like us to produce?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: The Raven
|Sub: MAD COWS
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:07:44
EID:9789 2084a8e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3aece
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 31622922
TR> "Okay, here's what it means." [note: I called him up and
TR> asked "What is a prionic disease"; his first reaction was
TR> `That's a little bit of a way out of Constitutional law,
TR> isn't it?'] "You know how we all thought that virii were the
TR> simplest life forms? Prions may or may not be lifeforms,
TR> but they are simpler than a virus. They are made of single
TR> or double protein chains, not full DNA molecules, but chunks
TR> of them. But they act a lot like a virus."
I sent a searcher over to the library on this and haven't bothered to look
at the file sitting in my machine yet. What I read earlier this week indcates
a lot of prblems with the "prion" theory, although something does cause
the neuro disorders. More to come when I see the docs.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: quote: ROTFL!
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:13:04
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb84e
REPLY: 3:640/201.3 3162e4df
PID: FM 2.02
BJ>> Hello Sean. You sound like a very learned man, and yet
BJ>> you still don't believe in Jesus Christ.
FR> ! ROFL ! Thanks, got her! Anyone still think Brad is really a fundy?
gf> That's an oxymoron isn't it, _learned religious_ ?
Hell, there's a great deal of truth in the statement that anyone who reads
the classical Christanic mythologies once can't remain a believer. Anyone
who learns scientific method and critical thinking and _employ_ both can't
be a believer in the mythologies.
~*~ I'm a lot less judgemental than you. - Martin Goldberg
I'll be the judge of that. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: Seed
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:14:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb84f
REPLY: 3:640/201.3 3162e6d8
PID: FM 2.02
jg>> Well I lost all my message replies <50+) due to a bad cluster.
FR> To judge by your dishonesty past, I suggest that you're lying.
}:-}
gf> Incredible that these people think they're the "goodly people of God"
Oh the classical Christanic mythologies are _filled_ with "godly men."
Yes, men who rape their daughters repeatedly until they're pregnant and
then demand that they got _him_ drunk. "Godly men" who hand over their
daughters to rampaging mobs.
gf> Well I suppose I shouldn't be suprised. Anyone that can read the
gf> Bible & still believe in it obviously has something wrong with them.
The inability to reason, perhaps?
~*~ IT'S A COOKBOOK! IT'S A COOKBOOK! - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Jesse Christ Jones: Portrait of a lunatic
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:21:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb850
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2453c108
PID: FM 2.02
JESSE JONES
Tip a glance... The fundy lawyer _still_ plays pretend:
DW> Do you have any evidence that your
DW> God exists outside the imagination?
I have answered this one many, many times.
The answer is both yes and no. - jcj
Anyone wonder whether he uses such deception and truth-avoidance in the
court room? Anyone wonder whether he uses such deception with judges?
Yes. God is evidenced by human history, by our
compassion, by our noble strivings for justice
and righteousness, by the majesty of - jcj
Ah, yes. Ignore human evolution entirely and pretend that the desire for
survival to pass on our genes evidences his deity constructs. Once again
he demands that emotions are "spirits" and that disease is caused by demons.
No. *Nothing* exists outside of the imagination,
independent of our ability to perceive it. - jcj
How's _THAT_ for willful ignorance? And yet he still pretends that his
deity constructs exists.
To all Christians: He's one of yours.
~*~ If I repent anything, it will probably be my good behavior. - Marty
Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Christmas deceptions, Jesse Christ Style
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:24:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb851
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2453c109
PID: FM 2.02
MG> Why do you believe that my giving my wife a gift at
MG> the end of the year constitutes practicing religion.
MG> That one is still outstanding.
Oh, I answered that one too, you guys just
did not like the answer. - jcj
Typical lawyer. Demand that he did answer the question first off to try
to hide the fact that he hoped he wouldn't be called on it and got caught.
You give gifts because something calls you
to celebrate God's free gift of grace by joining
in the festive spirit of giving. - jcj
Saturnalia -- the festival for the god Saturn -- the lawyer wants to pretend
is paying homage to hit (Jesse's) gods. Amazing.
Christianity, thy name is delusion.
~*~ "An it harm none, nuke the fuckers 'til they glow shalt
be the whole of the Law." -- David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: No
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:25:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb852
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2453c10a
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> Let's call your bluff: -Leave.-
jcj> No.
I won't let you leave. You must _beg_ first.
~*~ Freedom of religion refers to denominations of the Christian
faith, not spreading out a rug and praying to Allah or Satan.
- James Robertson
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:27:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb853
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2453c10b
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> For what seems to be the thousandth time, why do you
SQ> stay? To combat the evil? -What- evil?
jcj> The evil manifested in the juvenile gang-bang you call an
jcj> echo conference, in which you delight in ridiculing and
jcj> belittling all people of faith.
Ah, yes. When the truth about the evil death cult that YOU joined gets
exposed here repeatedly, pretend that the hurtful truth is "ridicule" so
you don't have to face up to the hurtful truth.
Fact is, lawyer, that the Christanic death cult has been and continues to
be THE single most deadly construct ever concieved by men. And you're part
of it. YOU are in total agreement with the death cult.
~*~ They are really pro-murder forces that supports the murder of babies
against the will of the mother, before and after birth. - Raoul Newton
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:33:45
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb854
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 1b9e8d6a
PID: FM 2.02
ML> I thought you said that your "work here was done"?
js> And I was correct, sir. Now I am just having fun. Work no more.
You're only lying to yourself, Jim. You wouldn't leave because _I_ wouldn't
let you.
~*~ The constitution is not a suicide pact. - Joseph Nagarya
Sure it is, Joe. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Robins
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:40:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb855
REPLY: 1:18/73.0 8954FD25
PID: FM 2.02
>>>>DR> Evolution is ultimately from the devil,
FR> And is mathematics also "from" your "devil," David? How
FR> about geology? Paleontology? Is astronomy also "from" your "devil"
FR> deity construct, David?
dr> Of course not.
Self-debunking fundies. Gotta' love 'em.
dr> Evolution is a fairy-tale, or even a religion (!).
Evolution is a directly observed phenomena not subject to belief nor disbelief
any more than gravity is. Most Christians are fully comfortable with the
fact of evolution. Only those who don't know what evolution is and listen
to the lies of their death cult masters play pretend that evolution is "from"
their "Satan" god.
Keep up the ignorance. It only helps your intellectual superiors rise above
you.
~*~ Laws of nature only exist once observed. - Jesse Hornbacher
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Chad Osten
|Sub: Waco Rememberance: Blow up some more
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:42:43
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb856
REPLY: 1:3804/120 31627a51
PID: FM 2.02
fR> No, the Davidians deserved what they got -- fatal stupidity
fr> _should_ be fatal. It's just a damn shame that the Davidians
fr> had to take their children out with them.
co> social darwinism at it's finest.
It's too bad they don't take themselves out _BEFORE_ they breed.
~*~ HolySmoke: "A drive-by shooting on the information superhighway."
- Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:53:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb858
REPLY: 1:3819/163 31635879
PID: FM 2.02
mb> Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
FR> Try reading it once. Then get back to us with
FR> evidence that there are deities. Thanks in advance.
mb> I am about a third of the way throught it in a read it in a year plan.
Don't you think it's rather silly to read a book of mythology going in already
believing it's describing deities that you want to exist? Aren't you capable
of understanding that doing so is no different than picking up a Wonder
Woman Comic book and trying to find a reason to believe that Wonder Woman
exists?
Why not read some SCIENCE books, Mark?
~*~ Here, stand behind my Blasphemy Shield! - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:56:21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb859
REPLY: 1:3819/163 3163587A
PID: FM 2.02
PS> So what? There are multiple accounts referring to the
ps> divinity of Zeus. Does that mean he's a real god?
mb> Nope but it does not mean that his is not a real god ethier.
FR> I would guess that Preston isn't making that claim. In any
FR> event the flood mythology's origins are well understood and
FR> the physics of such an event -- were it to have happened --
FR> are also well understood. Scietific method debunk mythology
FR> every time.
mb> Well The Physics are not that well understood to me
mb> I have not looked it all up but as I understande it
mb> physics change quite alot?
No, physics don't change at all. The latent heat produced by precipitation
as described in the mythologies would easilly reach a high enough temprature
to detonate the oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere. There would be geological
evidence that such an event took place, and there would be a good explanation
on where the water came from and where it all went.
In any event, the myth's origins were taken from the Gilgamesh epic. The
Chinese would have noticed their own extermination had the legend been true.
~*~ Ssshhhh! People are discovering that you're an imbecile. - Simon Ewins
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:56:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85a
PID: FM 2.02
> UNSHAKABLE
> Read: 1 Peter 1:13-25
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and
Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once
in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers,
recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned
men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was
greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
- Adolf Hitler
~*~ God tried to kill him with a heart attack. - David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:57:04
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85b
PID: FM 2.02
> PINPOINTING PRAYER
> Read: James 5:13-18
"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read
through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last
rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out
of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific
was his fight against the Jewish poison. - Adolf Hitler
~*~ Those menacing atheists with their dangerous questions
are coming! Run for your lives! - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:57:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85c
PID: FM 2.02
> BROKEN THINGS
> Read: Exodus 30:34-36
"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I
recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that
it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the
Cross.
"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be
cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and
justice..." - Adolf Hitler
~*~ God touches brains - John Brawley
Which is why believers' brains are scrambled - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:57:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85d
PID: FM 2.02
> FINISHED!
> Read: John 19:16-30
"The teaching of the youth to appreciate the value ...
of the community, derives its strongest inner power
from the truths of Christianity. For this reason it
will always be my special duty to safeguard the right
and free development of the Christian school and the
Christian fundamentals of all education."
- Adolph Hitler, 1933
~*~ And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Screaming fish!
|Date: 05 Apr 96 14:02:29
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85e
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64d3653f
PID: FM 2.02
GW> Their heads are tilted way back and
GW> up. So? This is the classic posture of a drowning victim.
mg> This is nonsense. Are you trying to tell us that drowning is
mg> the ONLY reason for the death of the dinosaurs? Are you really
mg> this stupid?
His ignorant belief reminds me of the Creationist at the ICR cult who wrote
about a fish that died "screaming." And then pretends that it's
proof that his "global flood" actually happened.
~*~ You can't discuss Scientology because you know that L.Ron
Hubbard is a really pathetic excuse for a God. - TarlaStar
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: woids
|Date: 05 Apr 96 14:05:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85f
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64d3815d
PID: FM 2.02
MH> It does not have to mean bird, even if that is the preferred
MH> meaning. As the collective referent for a list of seven or
MH> eight birds and one non-bird, it doesn't seem incorrect, now
MH> does it?
It means that the ignorant people who wrote the mythologies got it wrong.
Nothing more, nothing less. It shows that either no deity constructs were
used to edit the mythologies else said deity constructs were bumbeling idiots.
Now you just run along and pencil in your correction, buttfuck, and try
to continue to pretend that your mythologies are real.
~*~ "In Cyber-Space, no one gives a damn if you scream." - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 04 Apr 96 05:58:26
EID:a6b4 20842f40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64cb5b79
INSECTS
With what we know about the grays, and the other apparant "aliens", I was
wondering if they are what we will evolve into? Sure most people think that
these grays are "reptilian" or whatever, and others have seen things that
look like prey mantis'.
From what I can see, I'm not sure what we would evolve into, if we were
to ever solve all our problems, including the genetic problems. It almost
seems that anything that gets as far as us has to learn to master genetics
if they are able to continue their race. If a race starts from scratch,
it probably takes so many years before they can get to a certain point where
they can control, or fix the reproduction of its own race. Like our sperm
count is failing us now, and the breakdown of our genetic code, its a wonder
that we could survive another century. It seems to be snowballing.
Nevertheless, I wonder IF we were somehow able to overcome these problems,
what we would evolve into, in a million years?
Will we look like grays? What aliens that we know of, are evolved, but from
a primate, mammal type?
Personally, I think that ALL races, eventually evolve into insects. Just
like the grays, and they lack of feeling, or understanding of our feeling
and their "business as usual" attitude, It seems almost insect like. Not
to mention their appearance, and their methods of communcations. Most insects
communicate through frequencies, which is why the have their antennae etc.
However, Ultimately I think that we are evolving into a form of intelligent
insect.
Insects are the most adaptable type of lifeform there is on the planet.
They have been capable of surviving anything throughout our history. They've
been here the longest, even though the repiles have been around for a long
time too.
Would any of you like to add some input to this? What type of lifeform could
we evolve to? Beings of light? Insects? Reptiles?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: The Lipton Teaman is a False Prophet
|Date: 04 Apr 96 06:20:42
EID:4004 20843280
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64cb9731
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 316164b9
On Apr 01 17:10 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
JH>> And speaking of weird British-isms, what in the hell is
JH>> that uniform the Lipton Tea Man wears? Do they have
JH>> "teamen" over there too?
SA> Wouldn't know. I drink Red Rose, not Lipton. Lipton is
SA> False Tea Scum.
I have the benefit of having a number of asian markets nearby.
The tea that I buy, if it has any english on the packaging at
all, usually says something like:
"For result best: hot water of boiling use three minute."
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Fossil Record
|Date: 04 Apr 96 06:57:48
EID:4e8d 20843720
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64cbe47e
REPLY: 1:3615/1.11 31612390
On Apr 02 12:51 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/1.11 wrote:
DW>>> + Origin: URANTIA OUTPOST...Memphis, Tennessee, USA
JH>> This says volumes.
DW> Doesn't it, though? Susan Forbes (the orignal poster) is
DW> sort of a disciple of Sonny Gentry, the sysop of Urantia.
DW> Both of them post on THUMP_IT. See what your feud with
DW> Quarrella is causing you to miss? :)
A long distance bill?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:08:00
EID:be0c 20849100
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64d20ebf
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89544399
On Apr 03 21:57 96, Michael Hardy of 1:3625/470 wrote:
JH>> Does the Austin American-Statesman REALLY have the largest
JH>> daily circulation in Austin?
JH>> Who has the second largest daily circulation in Austin?
MH> The Austin Mexican-Statesman.
Damn you.... I'll never be able to cross the Congress Street Bridge
without recalling this message.
(The Congress Street Bridge, in addition to being home for the
largest urban bat colony in North America, is right next to the
paper's offices and plant.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
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SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:25:22
EID:f609 20849320
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64d24d07
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31629c5b
On Apr 02 17:40 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
JH>> Just Greys? What about the Nazis at the South Pole (they
JH>> have
SA> Yeah; they're the ones most-oft mentioned, so .. I also
SA> have them as the Big Baddies;
I wouldn't make them the "Big Baddies". I'd see them more as
a minor inconvenience. They're a bunch of octogenarian holdouts
for a failed philosophy. So what if they have alien technology,
when you get down to it they are nothing but a private club
for cantankerous old men.
JH>> living under Mount Shasta? Or the maliciously sinister
JH>> Reptilians
SA> Atlantis? That's too far fetched, even for this fantasy
SA> scenario, I think. :)
Then you have to explain why the aliens decided to come here
NOW. It's easier (and more paranoid) to assume they have been
comeing and going about their business for millenia. The Atlanteans
would be something like neutral non-combatants. They have superior
weaponry but if left alone will spend all their time contemplating
thier navels. If you want to include any "little people" races
(elves, dwarves, fairies) ally them with the Atlanteans.
JH>> Ashtar Command (you don't want these guys as allies,
JH>> they're too stupid to be helpful. No one in their fleet
JH>> seems to know how
SA> ROFL! That'd be great; but I'd need an explanation as to
SA> how they got here in the first place.
They don't know how to navagate, even they cant explain how they
came to be anywhere. But BOY! are their chakras ever in alignment.
These are the SewAge CrystalWeenies par excelance.
They can be bribed with cheap quartz crystals.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: All
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:30:12
EID:c718 2084a3c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316477a3
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Did you ever wonder why Hal Lindsey was called the author of the decade,
by the New York Times - an Establishment newspaper? The man is a Zionist
stooge, and his job is to divide the Church (Catholics and Protestants).
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: better than
|Date: 02 Apr 96 0:00:00
EID:950d 20820000
MSGID: 1:280/26 85005fce
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
NS> I hope there are going to be a lot of wallet-sized prints of this.
And
NS> I'd like a bigger one for my altar, and what about t-shirts? Put all
NS> the HolySmoke Gawds together and silk screen them on t-shirts labeled
NS> God Squad or something like that! Its the American way! };)
God Squad, let's see, Ceppa could play the tall black guy, Gwen Todd (of
tit cult fame) could play the Peggy Lipton part and Preston Simpson could
be the moody, good lookin' guy.
I'll just wait in the wings as an understudy or maybe I'll start my own
series about a guy who wanders the country on a motorcycle dispensing zen
wisdom.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:22:00
EID:4d6c 2082b2c0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85005fdf
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MB> This is why I refuse to see the life on Earth as a column with two
MB> ends, but prefer the metaphore of a circle with no beginning and
MB> no end. EVERYTHING is a threat to the life of something else, and
MB> size, sentience, possession of venom, or whatever else appears to
MB> me to be immaterial to that one fact: we all are capable of
MB> dealing death to others, and there is nothing "out there" that has
MB> any opinion regarding that fact, or any "greater" or "superior
MB> right" regarding the issue.
MB>
MB> The reason I find Christers' comparing us to gnats is because the
MB> DO see an heirarchy, and their view allows us no room for a good
MB> opinion of oneself, which I view as essential to good mental
MB> health.
Unlike Christianity, naturalism claims no special species and no chosen
people. It seems that perspective would only benefit all species and all
people.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:39:00
EID:6771 2082b4e0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85005ff0
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DW> RB> The Soviet citizens are probably every bit as decent as
DW> RB> U.S. citizens. The Soviet government may have become more
DW> RB> corrupt than most.
DW>
DW> I'm not sure I can agree with that. The Soviet government just didn't
see a
DW> need to *hide* as much of its corruption as do governments that are
popular
DW> elected.
I imagine the public behavior of OUR representatives would be very different
if they weren't subject to elections and a (somewhat) objective media.
But let's address the more pressing issue, are the French the moral equal
of the USA?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:45:00
EID:749e 2082b5a0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006001
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DM> RB> It's hard to believe God would bother mending your broken
DM> RB> foot while millions of children go starving.
DM>
DM> Ah, but THOSE little fuckers just don't pray right . . . .
No one can say God doesn't have tough decisions to make.
"Let's see, should I alleviate the suffering and eventual deaths of several
thousand children or should I mend Larry's broken foot? Oh what the hell,
let's go with the foot."
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aspirin: Having great ambitions
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 03 Apr 96 0:14:00
EID:03e4 208301c0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006012
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> That's a legitimate question...is smarter better? There is no way
to
AS> answer that.
A case could be made for 'higher intelligence' being nature's fuck up.
It fucks up the environment and it fucks up the 'normal' progression of
evolution. The question is, can we get smart enough fast enough, before
we completely fuck things up?
AS> But on the other hand, man is at the top of the food chain
AS> in the sense that very few predators have a chance against him, even
the
AS> largest and most massive, and that he himself is his own worst enemy,
AS> rather than any other animal. The only thing that seems capable of
AS> killing man off (granting no naturally occurring superflu) is man.
Is it coincidence that young healthy men are traditionally killed in wars?
The very segment of the population that would bloat it's numbers if they
were to stay alive? Maybe that's the ultimate government conspiracy, hmmm?
AS> I'm reminded of the Clifford Simek story in "City" where man was remade
AS> to fit into a hostile enviorment...I think Jupiter...and found the
new
AS> form so blissful that he did not want to return to his regular body.
Perhaps those who embrace religion also find a kind of bliss and they don't
want to return to reality.
AS> as a veterinarian sometimes has to give a dog shots which, are in
the
AS> dog's eyes, both painful and unnecessary, so God might have to do
AS> something to us which seems momentarily cruel yet serve a greater
good.
That just about excuses ANY cruelty God could impart, doesn't it? "I'm
going to give you stomach cancer now, but it's for a greater good."
AS> (And I must admit I would contenance any number of dead animals to
create
AS> a cure for AIDS or cancer, in the course of testing. I would not have
the
AS> suffer needless cruelty, but under certain circumstances, I would
much
AS> rather an animal suffer than a human.)
Although some humans are more deserving of suffering than some animals.
AS> RB> Of course we're not the crown of creation. The Zelphods of
AS> RB> planet Zelpha and the Gorbeons of Lergon BOTH make us look
AS> RB> like dung beetles.
AS>
AS> I daresay we of Gallifrey surpass even them...OOOPPSS!!!! (uh oh.)
AS> Pay no attention to what I was saying, and I agree completely.
AS> (SUUURE I do.)
Your complexion isn't a little on the grey side, is it?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Acute: Opposite of a ugly
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 03 Apr 96 0:31:00
EID:03e4 208303e0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006023
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> Well, quite frankly, you see a lot of theists HERE that exhibit no
racism,
AS> no sexism, and little militarism. And you see nontheists that do, like
Jim
AS> Lammon used to.
Lammon is neither theist or nontheist. He's a dickhead.
AS> As for historical examples...there have been fewer
AS> atheists than nonatheists, but certainly Napoleon didn't believe.
I was speaking of contemporary examples, not historical. The improved racial
and sexual tolerance we often see today is the result of political liberalism
and progressive thinking. The same is true for a less aggressive stance
toward other nations. 'Some' theists have gone along for the ride.
AS> However, you are right, in that the proponents of such have been,
more
AS> often than not, theists. That is because the majority of people are
AS> theists, and have been for centuries. If say 5 per cent of theists
and
AS> nontheists exhibit such qualities, there will be more theists who exhibit
AS> such than nontheists.
It would be interesting to know what 'percentage' of current theists and
nontheists exhibit no (or little) racism and sexism. Of course, MY money
would be on the home team.
AS> Nevertheless, I think religion can have a beneficial effect much
of
AS> the time, while acknowledging such obvious exceptions as Torquemada.
The question of believing in something that has an arbitrary beneficial
effect is an entirely different one than 'does that belief have any basis
in reality'? It seems the latter should take precedence over the former.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Working Stiffs
|Date: 03 Apr 96 22:42:00
EID:9c99 2083b540
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006034
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
SA> The funny thing is, corporations are the biggest takers of public
SA> monies, and get all sorts of tax breaks and deals on utilities and
SA> such for opening up locally. Then what do they do? They hire
SA> lots of people, but then lay a good half of them off a year or two
SA> later, sending people back to UIC or social services, in the name
SA> of more profits for the CEO and other middle-to-upper management
SA> types.
The trend in the U.S. is to hire more part-time workers, with greatly reduced
or non-existent benefits. Something seems askew when workforces are being
downsized and wages are being frozen, yet upper management is making huge
salaries. I read somewhere that Japanese executives are limited to 3 times
the salary of the lowliest worker in the company. Don't know if that's
true, but it's not a bad idea.
Profit-sharing is a great idea. Every worker who begins employment with
a company should immediately be made a shareholder. Then, they have a vested
interest in the success of the company.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ARGUMENTS
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:06:00
EID:aead 2083b8c0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006045
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> (As we all have faith in some
AS> things...scientists have faith that the laws of nature do not change
from
AS> place to place, for instance....i.e., you cannot prove the same laws
of
AS> physics hold in a distant galaxy as it does here, but one makes that
AS> assumption, and science is loaded with such faith. But they are called
AS> "axioms" in math and science. But they are matters of faith, nonetheless.)
An axiom is a far different matter than religious faith. To assume certain
conditions are consistent (until shown otherwise) is very different than
granting properties to unseen elements of the universe that are wildly
inconsistent with observed reality.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Bachelor: One who's footloose and fiancee free
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:19:00
EID:3524 2083ba60
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006056
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MG> There has been an influx of Russian scientists here at the medical school.
MG> One works in our lab. Due tot he near fanatical anti russian bigotry
of my
MG> boss (he took her on as a favor to another facutly member) she has remained
MG> pushed down tot he level of a brain dead street sweeoer. She has over
20 y
MG> experience in molecualr biology. Her English is much better. She has
prod
MG> a huge amount of work. The same is true everywhere. I have met Russian
MG> engineers, teachers and other professionals doing things like bagging
MG> groceries. To believe that the people of Russia are out to get us is
nonse
MG> It's just antoher excuse to hate those a bit different from yourself.
Us versus Them. Whether it be sexual, racial or political, it's a recurring
theme in human nature. I would have thought a place of higher education
would have been less prone to such bigotry. Sad
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 04 Apr 96 23:23:00
EID:441c 2084bae0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006067
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> RB> Then, what is that business about 'coming to him as a little
AS> RB> child'? That doesn't imply maturity, independence or thinking.
AS>
AS> Consistency is the hobgoblin of small dogmas. Well, you have to
come
AS> to God with the trusting acceptance of a lesser being for a Greater,
a
AS> trust in the beneficience yet authority of the greater being. I think
AS> that is part of the coming to Him as a little child...not trying to
be
AS> equal to God.
Though I'm no student (or fan, obviously) of the bible, I always took that
to mean 'come to him as a trusting innocent'. Faith practically demands
trusting innocence.
AS> In Hebrews 5:14 it speaks of spiritual "food",as opposed to
AS> those who cannot absorb the doctrine of righteousness as a baby cannot
AS> absorb anything but milk. "Solid food is for mature men with minds
AS> trained by practice to distinguish between good and bad." We are also
AS> commanded to be as "wise as serpents".
Doesn't that 'wise as serpents' part go on to say 'so you can detect false
prophets'? The wisdom isn't for discerning the reality of God but for exposing
those who don't toe the party line.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Bachelor: One who's footloose and fiancee free
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:03:31
EID:1093 20836860
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3162af50
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31611eb1
Lynda Bustilloz said "[1/2] Losing the Labels" to All,
adding:
LB> I expect there will be those here who will crow that they KNEW I
LB> wasn't a True Christian, and be very relieved not to have to deal with
LB> me on their "team". There will also be those who read this with sorrow
LB> (Al, I am deeply sorry for that). There will be some who claim it as
LB> a "kill" and perhaps do a little victory dance, and I hope there will
LB> be a few who realize that while this is no occasion for rejoicing, it
LB> does not mean that I have changed in regards to who I am -- just in
LB> what I call myself. And of course there will be many who simply don't
LB> care.
Some of us WOAs have spoken, from time to time, about
the comforts of religion as something not available to us; I
am sorry you have lost those comforts. I doubt that the
loss, however, will make you an ardent immoralist (to the
joy of the rabid fundies) or a trophy convert on the wall of
some rabid WOA. Most likely you shall remain yourself, which
is a good thing to be whatever the external label.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:03:32
EID:9207 20836860
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3162af51
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 1451ffb3
Rob Burcham said "Our Daily Bread" to George Mooth,
adding:
GM> Man gropes his way through life's dark maze,
GM> To gods unknown he lifts his praise;
GM> But when he seeks to know God's Son,
GM> He finds in Him the Living One.
GM> -Dennis J. De Haan
RB>
RB> The woman is groped and pinched by flirts,
RB> To men unknown she lifts her skirts;
RB> But when she seeks the thing to lick,
RB> She finds in her a Real Big Dick.
RB> -Rob J. De Burcham
The Christian groping to convert
Does his faith a world of hurt
His `Daily Bread' without the ham,
Clogs the Echo with tainted Spam.
-Don J. De Martin
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 04 Apr 96 01:46:16
EID:9e77 20840dc0
> At any rate, I don't think this will make much difference in the
> quality or style of my posts, or in what issues catch my attention. I
> hope it will not change anything in regards to who I consider friend.
> But I have tried where possible to be honest, even in this echo where
> honesty is a landmine for the unwary, and I cannot in good conscience
> be pointed to as an example of Christianity, when Christianity has made
> it so clear that it does not want my kind within its ranks.
> Lynda Bustilloz, March 18
good thing your repost wasn't dated 01 Apr 96 or many would have just skipped
to the bottom to look for the "April Fools" exclamation.
do you have any idea how many sects of the monotheist cult collectively
known as 'Christianity' there are? why are you trying to live up to someone
elses ideals?
if you say you are a Christian, then that's what you are and anyone who
sez otherwise is a dodo. it is axiomatic that finger-pointer monotheists
are always wrong about others. blow them off.
it's one thing to have doubts about your chosen superstition and come to
some rational analysis internally. that's called growing up. only children
need parents for protection and guidance. it another thing altogether to
let some self-serving righteousness monger without a clue to real responsibility
dissuade you with a bigger hammer.
if you have convictions don't take a back seat. stick up for them if they
are worth sticking up for in the final analysis. if not, live in the now
and be happy.
just remember you don't need superstition to make your life work. it often
gets in the way. you don't need superstition to be a good person and to
do good works. just do them for their own sake. the so-called 'Christians'
did not invent the 'golden rule' despite their claims to the contrary.
take it from an atheist. they're your most honest 'souls'. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2300sl/001027
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian...
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:63b9 20827480
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: "No True
Chris EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Martin Goldberg:
> MG> There is no such thing as a true christian. It's a matter of opi
> MG> what a true christian is.
>
> Yes and no. Yes it is a matter of opinion. But if you take the teachin
> of Jesus Christs and then hold them up as an example of true christian
> then compare the those teachings with the actions of people who call
> themselves christians, you can make a distinction of whether or not th
> people are christians in terms of your understanding of the teachings
> Jesus Christ.
EF> Except this here, (regarding your changing around the words of Luke
EF> 14:26 I think):
I am not a bible "quoter", I am a concept presenter. I try to understand
the concept presented, rather than just understanding the literal words.
> JG>Whoever comes to me and does not (be unwilling to obey the teachin
> JG>hisfather and mother.....and even life itself, cannot be my discip
>
> KS> Bullshit. You are doing the fundy shuffle and are badly slipping
> KS> in your own excrement.
>
JG> You can choose to believe whatever you want. I choose to believe that
> definition is closer to what was meant by the word hate in the context
> of that particular verse.
EF> You CHOOSE to believe that definition.
EXACTLY ! And that is what our entire life consists of, what we
CHOOSE to believe. These choices may be based on various reasonings.
I do try to present what kind of logical thinking makes me choose
these beliefs. If you ask me I will try to explain to you why I
believe things and it is never "just because the bible says so".
EF> Latter you say you take the teachings of Jesus "and then hold them up
EF> as an example of *true* christianity ..."
EF> But where do you get your information about what a true Christian is?
EF> Your only source for that is the Bible. And about the Bible you say:
No the bible is NOT my source. The bible is more like a history book.
GOD is my source. The bible merely expresses concepts I see in everyday
life. The parables of Jesus were of everyday occurences bacck then that
showed the REALITY of such concepts as "you reap what you sow". This
is a spiritual LAW, nand Jesus teachings merely pointed out these
universal eternal spiritual laws, that can be equated to our physical
laws, like the law of gravity.
JG> " How will you be determining what is "fact" except by
JG> the interpretation in ENGLISH of what was written in
JG> another language by an individual of different culture
JG> both in location AND in time?"
EF> You admit you can't know what is the "true" meaning of the Bible:
I did not say you cannot know what the "true" meaning of the Bible
is. The fact is though that you can "misinterpret" the ture meaning.
For example as a person I may say "I love you " Meaning it sarcastically,
But you could interpret just the words as I love you as meaning that
I really do love you. Only I can tell you what those words really meant,
because I wrote them. SO too only GOD can tell us what the words in the
bible mean. I cant tell you, I can only say how God the spirit tells
me what they mean, in as much as I myself am able to accept the truth
of those words. As a man I too have realities and truths that I would
sooner not face because of my pride, greed, or any other such vice.
And even God can only "convict" our conscious of those vices, as much
as we are willing to allow him. It is called "denial" in psychological
terms :-)
JG> "We have enough trouble just interpretting correctly
JG> what we say to each other right here in this echo. It
JG> is my opinion it would be almost impossible to be sure
JG> that any interpretation is FACTual or accurate given
JG> the language, cultural, time, and interpretation
JG> factors."
EF> "Almost impossible" to know, you say. Well Jim, then how do you intend
EF> to know for certain, " whether or not the people are christians "in
EF> terms of your understanding of the teachings?"
Because as Jesus said the truth is within you, or not depending on
your willingness to accept it. Atheists and Fundys are continually
accusing each other of denying reality, or the truth.
JG> "THEREFORE what I try to do is make a mental picture of
JG> the idea being expressed. And then apply it to a
JG> general principle that I can recognize and understand.
EF> You form a mental picture of the idea being _EXPRESSED_. That
EF> expression of that idea can only come from the WORDS, Jim. But you
say
EF> the words aren't to be trusted - yet your mental picture stands one
EF> interpretation further removed then even the words!
You are quite correct as John says in the beginning Was the WORD and
The word was with god and the WORD WAS GOD ! And the word became flesh
and dwelt among men. But the actual WORD is not what is written down
on paper, it is the INTENT behind those words, and while the intent
can be denied or misinterpreted, the TRUTH will still remain even if
we choose not to acknowledge it. The actual WORDS are not the only
place ideas come from. Faith without WORKS is dead. Ideas without
practical applpications are worthless. So ideas are more than just words,
in FACT ideas are the REALITY and words are our ineffective way of trying
to pass that reality on to another person. Telepathy would be much better.
But then our TRUE motives might be laid bare and how many of us would like
that to happen ? So THERE is a fanatatic reason to avoid God, because we
are naked in the spiritual world, so we stick to this physical world
where we can mask our evilness by manipulating words.
EF> Therefore you have no way of knowing if your intrepretation is better
EF> or worse than any other intrepretation and have NO BASIS by which to
EF> judge what is "True" Christianity.
Of course. I have always said that I cannot judge another person motives
for his actions and whether or not His God approves. BUT I have my own
relationship with God and God may be telling me that is not an appropriate
behavoir. I will choose my own perception of god over anyone elses, because
that is where I personally have to answer to god.
It is like children. The parent asks "Why did you do that ?" The child
replies "Because Sally's mom lets her do it".
That doesn't cut it with God either.
JG> The unfair part is to judge the teachings of Christ, by
JG> the interpretation or actions of the people who claim
JG> to be following those teachings.
JG>
JG> You should judge the teachings by your own personal
JG> interpretation of those teachings, not based on someone
JG> elses interpretations of those teachings.
EF> So there is no one "true" Christianity then?
Where the one "true" Christianity comes in, is when all the Christians
within a group agree on that Christianity. I had the priviledge of
belong to such a group in the late 1960's in Billings Montana. The
First Methodist Church I believe. There was a unity and oneness that
I had never experienced before, and have never experienced since.
JG> And even more importantly you should not group all
JG> people who say they believe in the teachings of Jesus
JG> Christ, because some of those people may be people who
JG> bomb abortion clinics, while others of those christians
JG> may be people who abhor such actions. They are not all
JG> the same.
EF> Aren't abortion clinic bombers judging the teachings by their own
EF> personal interpretation of those teachings? Didn't you say they
EF> SHOULDN'T based it on someone elses interpretations of those
EF> teachings?
Of course and that is why I would not dare to judge them. But my belief
is that they have a faulty perception of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
That is my personal opinion. But I also believe that sin in God's eyes
is no worse than say the sin of gluttony. It is people who say murder
is such a more terrible sin than gluttony. But I think in gods eyes,
it is like trying to say there is a difference in 2 small dots on
a clean sheet. With a micrometer you could see the difference in size,
but in terms of perfect righteousness, you could not see much of a
difference between gluttony and murder.
... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:16
EID:e6f7 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about "No True Christian..
DW> As a public service, I have once again quoted the text that you claim
DW> changes the meaning of the phrase "God is limited".
DW> Here is the first sentence:
>God is limited in his ability to
>help his messengers by those who hear the message and respond.
DW> Hmmm... it seems by requoting just the first three words, I actually
DW> made things easier for you. Looking at that sentence, you not only
DW> state that God is limited, but that limits are placed on him by us
DW> lowly mortals. That doesn't sound very omnipotent to me.
Thank you very much, and now I again point out that the actual limitation
is based on MANS inability, not Gods inability. So while god is limited
in what he can do for man, the inability lies within man, not God.
DW> Here is the rest of the paragraph:
> When a person buys a book, goes to a comedy club, a show, watches
> tv goes to school They PAY for that "entertainment" and
> "education". If they buy a bible or go to church or religious
> crusade or watch a religious show, these things also cost money.
> But instead of being supported by advertising for entertainment
> which comes out of your pocket everytime you buy a product, or by
> taxes for education which comes out of your pocket every payday ,
> religious entertainment and education are paid for directly by the
> people who partake in them. So the next time you watch a religious
> tv show, consider paying for the entertainment. Send a donation.
DW> Hmmm... I see nothing there that changes the meaning of the portion
I
DW> quoted. Are you going to admit to your blatant lies about me now, or
DW> are we going to have to go through this again?
Let's go through it again. God ALLOWS us to have freedom of choice. God
politely ASKS us to love one another. We are free to not do so. Now if
God speaks to me and says send $100 dollars to support this religious show
that you have enjoyed this evening, and I choose not to. Then God is
limited in his ability to reach more people and tell them about the
gift of life available through accepting Jesus.
If I God tells me to LOVE my enemy, and I choose to take up arms in
a crusade instead, then I have limited God in presenting his message
of love to the world. If you refuse to believe God, then you have limited
him in his ability to help you with the good advice he gives you.
DW> Are you going to admit your error, Jim, or will you dishonestly
DW> attempt to obfuscate the issue once again? (That word *is* in the
DW> dictionary, btw. Look it up. At least try to learn *something* from
DW> your stay here.)
I think that you will see that my explanation CLARIFIES the issue rather
than obfuscates it. Are you going to refuse to try and comprehend the
explanation in order to hide from the truth and reality of it?
DW> I noticed you patting Germy on the back on this issue, Michael Hardy.
DW> Maybe *you* can show me how the context changes the meaning of the
DW> portion I quoted? Or were you completely full of shit once again,
DW> Knee-Jerk?
DW> Could someone forward this to Mikey please? Thanks.
It seems Michael is a bit better at comprehension than you are.
... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:a18c 208369a0
this is what Lynda Bustilloz had to say to Jim Germiquet about "No True
Christian LB> J.J. and Jim were killing time yakking about "No True Christian...":
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Preston Simpson <=-
JH> On Mar 22 15:39 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
JH> And my favorite: he called the Samaritan woman a bitch.
JG> I certainly don't remember Jesus calling a Samaritan woman a
JG> female dog. Perhaps once again you have mistranslated or taken
JG> his words out of context as usual.
LB> You are correct. It was a Canaanite woman:
LB> A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord,
LB> Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from
LB> demon possession."
LB> Jesus answered not a word. So his disciples came to him and urged
LB> him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
LB> He answered. "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
LB> The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
LB> He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it
LB> to their dogs."
LB> "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall
LB> from their master's table."
LB> Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have faith! Your request is granted."
LB> And her daughter was healed that very hour.
Jesus did NOT call her a bitch. Jesus was using a parable to explain his
purpose. His purpose was first to bring the Jewish Nation who worshipped
God,
back to God. It was not to work miracles for people who did not believe
in
God. People who REFUSE to believe in God, can hardly expect to be healed
by him now can they ?
However, he noted that this woman had FAITH in the mercy of Jesus, and
in the ability of him to heal her. It was to this FAITH that Jesus contibutes
the healing of the woman. There is Power in Faith.
Even when Moses was confronted with the prophets of Baal, there was no
denying the power of the faith of those prophets. But remember where their
faith started the fire of dry wood, Moses faith started the fire of soaking
wet wood. Where their faith turned their rods to snakes, Moses rod not
only turned into a snake, it ATE their snakes. And of coarse there was
the trick with turning the water red which again the faith of Moses
outclassed.
So while this woman was healed by her faith, it was not faith in God and
Jesus came to save those who had faith in God, because this healing is
true healing. If the woman did not turn to believing in God, then she
would be no better off in the future.
LB> Matthew 15:21-28
LB> You know, I suppose you might say it was a good thing she was a
LB> "bitch", and not inclined to be quiet and accept in submission the word
LB> of males -- even Jesus -- because if she had, she wouldn't have gotten
LB> what she wanted.
Go back and read it again. God did not call her a "bitch".
In your opinion. In my opinion he was just illustrating a point.
Sort of like if a person is given an opportunity to buy into a real
good business deal, you can present all the data and ask the person
to sign on the dotted line, but it is his choice. You may then say.
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
It doesn't mean you are calling the person a horse, you are just
illustrating a principle.
LB> "He who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed
LB> by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in
LB> loving himself better than all."
LB> [Samuel Taylor Coleridge]
I LIKE THAT ! :-)
But let me clarify it by saying this. I refer to THAT kind of christianity
as churchiology , but for me "real" christianity mean loving the truth
because Jesus said "I am the way the TRUTH and the life".
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:19
EID:90d0 208369a0
this is what J.j. Hitt had to say to Jim Germiquet about "No True Christian..."..
JH> On Mar 27 14:59 96, Jim Germiquet of 1:250/618 wrote:
PS>> Jesus beat some people in a temple. Jesus said that he'd
PS>> come to bring a sword, not peace. Jesus cursed a fig tree,
PS>> for crying out loud. Do these look like the actions of a
PS>> nice guy?
JH>> And my favorite: he called the Samaritan woman a bitch.
JG> I certainly don't remember Jesus calling a Samaritan woman
JG> a female dog.
JH> MATTHEW
JH>
JH> 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
JH> 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the
JH> children's bread, and cast [it] to dogs.
JG> Perhaps once again you have mistranslated or
JG> taken his words out of context as usual.
JH> Where do you get the "once again" crap, Germy?
JH> Do you have ANY evidence that I have ever done this?
JH> Don't claim the above is out of context, because it plainly and
JH> simply aint. Jesus does change his mind in the next verse, but
JH> his initial reaction to her plea was to call her a dog (in a
JH> contemporary context this is equivalent to calling her a bitch).
JH> Wiggle, squirm and lie all you want. It's in the Bible in black
JH> and white.
In a previous message I have pointed out your "distortion".
In brief....
If I offer a person a great deal and he chooses not to accept it, I
might say "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink".
This is NOT calling the person a horse, it is merely illustrating a
princple or concept !!!!
So of course it simply WAS taking it out of context.In my opinion.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Lou Dripkin
|Sub: Re: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:18
EID:a4e7 208369a0
this is what Lou Dripkin had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: 1 god plus
1 god p NS>> Millions of kids believe in Santa Claus. That doesn't mean
NS>> he's real (Sorry to tell you if you didn't know.) It
NS>> doesn't matter how many people believe in something, that
NS>> doesn't make it real.
JG>
JG> But Santa Claus DOES exist. I see him in malls, and in tv shows.
JG> Maybe he isnt a specific individual that rides through the skies
JG> in a sleigh pulled by 8 tiny reindeer. But he certainly exists in
JG> the hearts and minds of millions of people.
LD> This is an ignornt answer. When cornered, it's not wise to mke a joke
LD> of it. Everyone can see that you have no answer to this. The analogy
LD> between Santa Claus and his non corporeal state and your god stands.
I noticed that you left out the reference to "Yes Virginia there is
a Santa Claus". Why ? Does the sentiment and logic of that very famous
letter hit to close to the TRUTH that you are so afraid of ? That there
really is a SPIRIT OF GOD !!!
This is no joke ! And reality consist of more than just what you can
throw under a microscope or into a test tube !!!
... Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your taglines!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:19
EID:ae05 208369a0
this is what Marilyn Burge had to say to Jim Germiquet about A Fair & Just
God... MB> On (27 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to David Johnston <=-
MB> not learning the single most valuable lesson we can learn as
MB> human beings: that other people hurt just like we do, and
MB> have an equal desire to avoid being hurt.
JG> I really have to agree with you there. However I believe
JG> there are a few people out there who are violent and are just
JG> looking for someone who's head they can take off. Especially
JG> those people who murder or beat people in the commission of a
JG> crime when the person has co-operated fully with them.
MB> Basing one's ethics on statistical outlyers sounds a bit paranoid
MB> to me. I try to avoid paranoia; it isn't a very comfortable frame
MB> of mind.
Oh. Okay, I misread your message to say "other people have an
equal desire to avoid hurting others" , I dont know why...but now that
I have examined what you said I can understand it more clearly. yes I
suppose, the desire to avoid being hurt would make some people put
on a coat of insensitvity or power as a sheild.
But I still am not quite sure what your reply means and was wondering
if you could rephrase it in a simpler way that I can understand ?
Thanx.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:62fb 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about A LITTLE HELP
FROM S DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>>> Let me try that with YOUR message up there
DW>>> your opinion more valid.
DW> Remember this? It becomes important later on.
DM>>> Notice that in Dave's redaction, he left a complete
DM>>> independent
DM>>> clause: subject -- verb -- predicate adjective: it is capable of
DM>>> standing alone as a basic unit of discourse. Your attempt with
DM>>> his contains no verb and therefore not an independent clause nor
DM>>> much of anything else. With such linguistic incompetence, you
DM>>> show a great deal of sheer, putrescent gall when you accuse
DM>>> anyone else of making your stuff meaningless.
JG>> I grow weary of these word games,
DW>> Only because you realize you are seriously outgunned. But then,
DW>> you must be used to being outgunned in contests requiring
DW>> intelligence.
JG> I came here to discuss religion, not grammar .
DW> Then why did you start the grammar discussion by trying to present
DW> "your opinion more valid" as a complete quote from me?
At no time did I try to present it as such. I was pointing out that
by taking only the words from a message that YOU want to, you can
distort the true intent or meaning or context of those words greatly.
At no time did I intend for people to think you had said that, and the
WORDING of the "Let me try that with your message up there" SHOWS that
I had taken those words out of context.
JG> Why dont you start up a grammar netmail base to play your word
JG> games?
DW> Why did you start the "word games" if you dislike them so much?
I didn't start the word games. I am using words to try to clarify
what I mean if there are questions or misunderstandings. I don't
deliberately take words out of context, or make fun of a point because
I am unable to answer it. As noted I made it obvious that the quote
was taken out of context, and if I make a joke it is for the humor
value in it and not to avoid addressing the issue .
DW>> WOuldn't it be easier to simply admit that your altered my
DW>> quote into something that made no sense whatsoever and I only
DW>> relieved your quote of some excess verbiage?
JG> That "so called" excess verbage is what gives meaning to the context
JG> of the phrase.
DW> I requoted the context that you claim changes the meaning of
your
You do a lot of laughing, to bad you can't be more sincere.
DW> statement that "God is limited". All of us saw that you were *lying*,
DW> Jim. Would you like for me to quote it back to you yet again? Nothing
And I believe I adequately explained how the "limit" was not because
of an inability of god, but an inability of man. And actually it is
not an "inability" of man but simply a "refusal".
DW> in that context changed the meaning of the portion I quoted. Why must
DW> you continue to *lie* about this topic? Don't you know that your God
DW> considers lying to be a sin? Why not be a man and admit your mistake?
My only "mistake" was in assuming you were capable of comprehending the
context of the words. Now the question is, after a more thorough
explanation of the context, are you still going to deny that you
understand it.
DW>> Run and hide, li'l fundy.
JG> Not really, the only reason I twit them is that I don't want to waste
JG> my time writing messages to people who really are not interested in
JG> the concepts within those messages,
DW> Then why threaten people with it, as you did above? Are you lying
DW> *again*, Jim? Just twit them and go on about your business.
First of all I did Twit them. Then I changed my mail reader and at that
time changed my mind. I believe there are some people in this echo
who appreciate my reasoning and may gain some insight into my idea
of god and spirituality , just as I gain insight by reading their ideas
of god and spirituality.
JG> but merely want to find something
JG> in them to ridicule.
DW> We don't have to look very hard to find something to ridicule in your
DW> messages. If you don't like being ridiculed, maybe you should try to
DW> not make so many ridiculous statements.
I noticed that you are capable of ridiculing ANYTHING. Your choice.
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:c478 20827480
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: A tale
of 2 ci EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
> DW> Show us the algorithm you use to seperate the metaphor from the fa
> DW> Jim. How do you know that the resurrection wasn't metaphorical as
>
> What is your intention here David ? Is it to prove the bible is right
> wrong? And how do you intend to do that ?
EF> Why didn't you answer the question? You claim much of the Bible is
EF> metaphor and he wants to know how to tell the metaphor from the
EF> literal parts. Is it because you are guided by your own personal
EF> desire to believe whatever is convenient, then state that belief as
EF> though it were a fact?: ("...much of the entire bible is written in
EF> this "metaphoric" sense")
I thought I had answered it before and maybe even after many times.
The way to tell the metaphor from the literal parts ? I really dont
know for sure. I wasnt there. But for me as I said about the story
of the boy who cried wolf, it doesnt make it any less "true" whether
or not that story was literal or a metaphor.
EF> By questioning what is writt
> in it ? And to do so, you must define what the words mean. Now for exa
> the word "day" cannot mean a 24hr solar day, simply because according
> the bible "literally", the sun did not even exist until the THIRD day.
> I will assume you agree with this concept because you say up there, th
> you could say the universe has only existed 7.9 days.
EF> But the days WERE 24 hours from the 3rd day on? The time span God
EF> called a day was different on different days, huh.
WRONG, because if the "genesis day" meant a "period of time" then
that is a different day than the "solar day" and all 7 days, may
have been using the definition of "a period of time".
Just as we have many meanings for the same word and misapplying
those meanings can make a total difference in the concept being
presented.
there was a recent discussion over the phrase "proud lesbien". Now there
are several things that could have been intended.
Proud in the sense being a lesbien is better than being a straight.
Proud in the sense that the person worked hard to become a lesbien.
Proud in the sense that the person was proud of having the courage
to admit she was a lesbien.
Or simply not ashamed of being a lesbien, proud in spite of the opinion
of other people.
Who can really be sure what the author intended and if that intent
had been changed like in the broken telephone game in its transition
from one person and generation to the next.
... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: ADOLPH HITLER
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:2238 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about ADOLPH HITLER...
DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert Sykes:
JG> The question that comes in now though , is do you make sex your "god".
JG> If a woman told you that she would have sex with you, if you killed
JG> your mother, would you kill your mother ? If you would, then sex
JG> certainly has become your god.
DW> If God told you that he would let you into heaven if you killed your
DW> mother, would you kill her?
First of all the God I believe in would hardly tell me to do so. You see
it goes against even the 10 commandments.
But then you could always wonder about it in this sense which could make
it contemplatable at least.
If my mother was suffering in intense agony, would god suggest euthanasia?
At this point in my beliefs, God is telling me to relieve the suffering
but not to kill the person. But I have not had much personal experience
with such situations. That is why I have difficulty with the issue of
assisted suicide, my question always remains, why can you not relieve
the pain with drugs until the person dies of natural causes ?
The point being that of following the spirit or intent of the law, which
is to respect life and not kill other people or take away their right
to life.
Or in the commandment of Jesus . Love your neighbor as yourself.
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a Chris
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:28
EID:3bab 20827480
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Adolph Hitler
Was a C
jg> The way one tells a Christian is by his love for his fellow man .
FR> You're ignoring the foundation of the Christanic death cult as well
as
FR> the history of the death cult entirely. A Christian is known by their
FR> hatred and resentment of all that is good. A Christian is known by
FR> their justification of ANY tyranny by using their deity constructs.
A
FR> Christian is known by every single expression of evil that men can and
FR> will do.
FR> YOU joined the death cult knowing full well what it stands for. That
FR> makes YOU complicity to the evil. That means YOU agree with what the
FR> Christanic death cult has historically stood for as well as for what
it
FR> stands for in contemporary time.
Excuse me but at no time have I ever joined a death cult. You accuse me
of this when you have no idea if I even belong to a church.
I am looking for a church which holds the ideas of christianity that
I do. Most churches I believe are political and social institutions. In
fact
the true church of god, is not in a denomination but in the hearts of
individuals. A church may have many of these christians in it or none
at all, and yet still call themselves christians. They are described
as wolves in sheeps clothing. And being a christian is a growing process.
It begins with being "born again" to a desire to do what is right and
proceeds through growth from childhood to maturity. The more you are
able and willing to accept the truth god plants in your heart, the more
mature you become as a christian.
But if I were in a church and they even suggested what you indicate
above I would denounce that church. If you choose to label everyone
who indicates they believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, which
by the way support NONE of what YOU have claimed above, that is a
biggoted choice on your part. And I feel sorry for you, that you cannot
seperate the truth from the lie.
FR> Lose the death cult, Jim.
FR> ~*~ No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you
FR> were gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not
FR> have happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
You really enjoy taking little snippets of messages perhaps out of
the context in which the were meant. I cant speak for Jim Staal, but
obviously this quote does not represent the sum total of all that went on
in this particular discussion.
What things ? And what is the context in which Mr Staal is speaking ?
For example if a gay person walks into a Neo Nazi meeting and yells
out loud . "I am gay and proud !" what is his agenda ?
... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:ce0f 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about Avoiding the
Questio DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert Sykes:
JG> The same analogy applies to the drug scenario up there.
JG> A person chooses to take drugs, the are happy, however because they
JG> made that choice, when the drugs are no longer available, they will
JG> suffer the hell of withdrawal.
DW> Your analogy is flawed, Jimmy (and no, we didn't really expect
DW> anything else). No one chooses to be a sinner - God made us that way.
Only to the degree that his TRUTH shines a light on our lies . His
goodness shines a light on our evilness.
But it is WE who CHOOSE to do that evil instead of the good.
... Go straight to the docs. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Can any god play your game?
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:28
EID:8ae1 20827480
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Can any god
play your JG> We also have to deal with those who have
JG> no intention of listening to God.
FR> Can any god play your game, Jim? You have no intention of listening
FR> to my god so can I murder you, kidnap and rape your children just like
FR> your god ordered?
Of course you can do anything you want. Of course our society has set
up some laws that might discourage you from doing so. But god would
not stop you. But god might forewarn me if I am listening, and allow
me to escape your evil intent. He might even use conditions that would
cause me to run away at just the right time that as you are pursuing
me, a power line that is ready to snap will come down and electrocute
you for your treachery. Of course had you not pursued me it would not
have happened that you would die.
... Sorry, the Dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Christian blow jobs,
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:b0f9 20827480
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: Christian
blow EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Karl Schneider:
> JG>Again you apply todays standards to an alien time and place and
EF> people.
EF> You wish to do the same thing in reverse: apply alien standards (the
EF> old Testament - 10 Commandments) to todays time and place and people.
Not really. The standards that we should be striving for are timeless, peopless and placeless. These spiritual
values transcend mans timely perception of them. Where time and place
come in are merely in how they are expressed. Again this idea of some
sins being bigger than other sins is a man made idea. I said it before
and I'll say it again, the god I believe in did NOT approve of war 10,000
years ago any more than he does today. It is MAN who continually changes
his values and laws and perception of god so that he can do what he
considers justifiable. God/truth remains constant .... peoples
perceptions of it change in accordance to how willing they are to accept
it.
I once said that god was limited in being able to affect mans actions.
I should have said man is limited by his inability to listen to and
accept the truth that god is constantly trying to impart to him.
JG> But then how can you use the examples of abraham , in the end abraham
> does NOT kill his son, does he. But what he clearly does, is show that
> he has no other god before the true god.
>
> that doing the "right" thing is more important than doing what he
> wants. To be willing to give up your greatest treasure on earth to
> do what is "right". Trusting God enough to believe it is right.
EF> If you believe that anything your god tells you to do is "right" by
EF> definition, including murdering children, then you are a moral
EF> relativist to the nth power.
And do we not in a sense murder our own sons when we sent them off
to Germany, Korea and Vietnam ? We BELIEVED we were sacrificing our
children for a good reason. But hey it's okay for us , but not
Abraham.
JG> Please try to understand this concept. It is EXACTLY the same one in
t
> story of the rich person who came to Jesus and Jesus told him to sell
> everything he owned and give the money to feed the poor. That isnt a
> commandment for all people,
EF> You wish. You completely take this story out of context. For instance
EF> What did JC say right afterward about the rich going to heaven? Not
EF> only that but it is hardly the only place that JC says this. I
EF> supplied the quotes for you before. Only the most convoluted
EF> interpretation could derive a different meaning.
Because too many people put money and wealth ahead of their willingness
to do what god want them to. A person concerned with hording millions
may not be willing to listen when god asks him to give away a few of them.
But once again remember that people like Solomon and Noah and Job were
incredibly wealthy and yet considered gods champions. Also it depends
on who you are hearing the stories from. It just happens that Jesus
ministry was among the poor people and the writers may just have been
aware of that social level. Much like a person who is familiar with
the ghetto may not have personal knowledge of the person of the
high income areas and accordingly would write his personal biography or
his friends without mention of the richer people who he did not come
into contact with.
JG> It isn't "money" that is the root of evil which many mistakenly believ
> it is the "love of money".
EF> That's right! But you left out the first part of that passage:
EF> "They that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many
EF> foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and
EF> perdition"
They that WILL be rich, those that seek out richness, not necessarily
those whom may have richness thrust upon them.
EF> It is a rare individual indeed who becomes rich without very strong
EF> desire (love) of/for money.
It is a question of "priority" you can desire money as long as you do
not put that desire for money above your desire to do what is right ,
or what god tells you to do.
A wealthy person has to be WILLING to give all his money away if
god requires it of him. But just as Abraham was willing to give up
his sons life, God does not always require it of us. Just the
willingness that shows you have no other god above hearing
the truth of god and acting on it by doing the right thing.
A good example is to consider yourself a bank with all the money in
it gods. If you just give away all that money you no longer have
the ability to do the same kind of work . But we should be spending
the INTEREST to help others and then we can continually have the
ability to help others.
EF> Once again: "The ransom of a man's life [are] his riches"
The old " you can't take it with you" idea.
EF> "He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that
EF> loveth abundance with increase: this [is] also vanity."
EF> --Ecclesiastes 5:10
Again it deals with this LOVE of money. And I believe that it means
if this love of money is more than your love of god.
EF> "He that hasteth to be rich [hath] an evil eye, and considereth not
EF> that poverty shall come upon him." -- Proverbs 28:22
Again if you hasteth to be rich, instead of waiting upon the will
of god for you to become rich. It all deals with where your priorities
lie. FIRST put god ... then .... see.. don't "hasteth" to be rich.
Well you may have a point. But in my opinion. God doesn't care so much
how much money you have, as he does about what you do with that money.
And richness is relevant. A person in a flat is rich to a person on
the streets. A person in a rented house feels a person who owns their
own house is rich. A person who owns his own small house may consider
the person with two cars and a pool rich. A person with two cars and a
pool may consider Bill Gates rich :-)
Even in the verses up there, I sense that the point being made is where
the individual places being rich as his god or goal or first in their
lives. Only god knows if a rich person is willing to part with those
riches in the manner which god may ask of him.
... My other computer is a VAX.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:fca9 20827480
this is what Preston Simpson had to say to Jim Germiquet about Claims of
deity co
JG> And who cares ? The real question is, how much "something" can you
JG> get from absolute "nothing", in a billion years ? Where did those
PS> One can ask this question of God as well. Where did God come from,
PS> Jim?
First you have to define what god is. God is a spirit ! God is the truth!
God is the spirit of truth and rightness and love .
Is there an end to truth ? A beginning ? Does it exist ?
And what is "anything" ...Some kind of expression of energy or something.
Whatever reality really is, when did it come into existence.
Back to the book of John.
In the beginning was the WORD
And the word was WITH god
And the word WAS god.
And the word became FLESH and dwelt among men.
JG>From what we know about science, Energy cannot be created or
JG>destroyed, sure there are some wonderful theories beyond that, but I
JG>hardly think we have come to a point where we can positively identify
JG>that something can come from nothing.
KDM> There's a remarkably large fusion generator in the sky; that's
KDM> where the energy has come from.
JG> Where did that large fusion generator come from :-).
PS> Kevin was addressing the foolish (yet frequently made) contention that
PS> evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics. It doesn't for the
PS> reason that he elucidated above. Asking where the sun came from delves
PS> into cosmology and astrophysics, not evolution.
But before you had evolution, you HAD to have cosmology and astrophysics,
even if they had not yet been defined.
JG>But it still remains that whatever exists, came from somewhere. Write
PS> Not necessarily. You're assuming that the chain of causality cannot
be
PS> infinite in length.
EXACTLY ! And that goes back to an infinite "god". Given the definition
that god is this chain of causality.
JG> is a spirit so the bible says. THINK about it. At some point in mans
JG> evolution, he must have come up with this idea of "right and wrong"
at
JG> some point he must have eaten from the fruit of the tree of the
JG> knowledge of good and evil. Isn't that, all the garden of eden story
is
PS> Not literally, one hopes. But the GoE story goes on to suggest that
PS> eating from the tree was forbidden by God. Why did God want to keep
us
PS> without the knowledge of good and evil?
BUT what if there was no good and evil before Adam and Eve ate from the
tree ? See it is a metaphor. Maybe the very concept of good and evil
is a man made idea, caused when man decided to do evil things like
lie , steal and kill.
You see, if we define just those three as "evil" and man has never done
those three things, then evil does not yet exist. But as soon as man
"lies" or "steals" or "kills", evil suddenly comes into existence.
So the question being asked in this tree story, is where did evil
first come from ? Why do men lie ? What was the first lie ? Now
if we define God as Truth, then the first time man went against god/truth
was the first sin.
JG> Maybe they "feel" god, but just dont call it god. Maybe they call it
JG> their "conscience", maybe they call it "reasoning" or "common sense"
JG> or "personal moral values". WHatever name you give it, it basically
JG> represents the same thing. It represents what each of us believe is
JG> "good or evil".
PS> Sociopaths, in many cases, wholly lack a conscience or what relatively
PS> normal human beings would speak of as morals or ethics. Where is their
PS> god?
Good question !
JG> "the theory that only the self exists"... And why is that not
JG> possible. I have been told by an atheist, that scientists can
JG> manipulate your brain and make you think you are swimming or talking
to
JG> aliens or walking, or anything at all. That then brings into question,
PS> Doesn't take scientists. You can do it with drugs.
JG> our ability to perceive what is real and what is simply perception.
PS> It has long been my opinion that humanity is incapable of knowing
PS> reality-- all that we can know is our perception of reality. However,
PS> when the evidence available to us points to a particular, logical
PS> conclusion, then we begin to grasp what reality *is*, assuming that
PS> we're not all hallucinating the same thing under all circumstances.
Dr. Deepak Chopra put it like this.
When you are asleep and dreaming, your mind is in a different reality or
consciousness. When you awake, you simply go from one consciousness to
another. And that this waking reality is not any more real than our
dream reality and that when our spirits leave this waking reality,
He describes this other reality as a "soup of energy". and that the
physical perception of it isnt much different than dreaming.
When we wake up from sleeping we say oh I was only dreaming now I am in
the true reality.
If we percieve reality as this "soup of energy" then we are in a sense
waking up from this physical sense of reality.
I think when christians say they are "born again" they mean that they are
now awake to the reality of the "truth/god".
... I'd rather ride the Wave than wallow in QWKsand!
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:29
EID:e240 20827480
this is what Martin Goldberg had to say to Jim Germiquet about Claims of
deity co JG> And who cares ? The real question is, how much "something"
can
JG> you get from absolute "nothing", in a billion years ? Where
JG> did those self replicating molecules come from in the first
JG> place ? Where did those scientific, or natural laws come
JG> from, that allowed those molecules to self-replicate ? You
JG> have no way of answering those questions with anything more
JG> than supposition or speculation.
MG> This is wrong. Look up and study the First law of Thermodynamics.
MG> Simply put (for your sake) it says that the sum total matter and energy
MG> int he universe cnanot be altered. This means that it cannot be
MG> created or destroyed.
MG> Doesn't seem to leave much room for a god to create anything.
EXACTLY ! And that also corresponds to an infinite everlasting god who
didn't have to come from anywhere because he has always existed because
he is in fact this some total of matter and
energy,
The MATTER is the created part of God. The planets and our physical life
forms. The energy is the spiritual part of god and ourselves.
We live in a physical realm and also in the spiritual one, but we tend
to spend too much of our existence concentrating on the physical pleasure
to the detriment of the spiritual ones.
The real point I am making however is that it is not so foolish to
consider eternal in relationship to a god, anymore than in relationship
to this First Law of Thermodynamics.
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:16
EID:02ef 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about Claims of deity
cons DW> 26 Mar 96 14:07, Jim Germiquet wrote to Kevin D. Mckenzie:
DW> Where did God come from?
God has always existed. God IS the universe. Wherever everything came from,
I refer to as God the creator.
Of course there is also God the "spirit" which is the spirit of truth or
good
as opposed to the spirit deceit or evil.
JG> You have no way of answering those
JG> questions with anything more than supposition or speculation.
DW> Right back atcha.
GREAT ! Puts your theory and mine on EQUAL ground which is all I ask for
:-)
JG>> From what we know about science, Energy cannot be created or
JG>> destroyed,
DW> That shows how little you know of science. Energy cannot be created
or
DW> destroyed *now*, since the laws of physics are in effect. The Law of
DW> Conservation of Energy did not exist until immediately after the big
DW> bang.
Oh and who made THIS story up ? First of all you ASSUME the "big bang" is
FACT instead of THEORY.
Then you just make up this theory about how the Law of Conservation of
Energy just began at that time. How do YOU know ? How do you know that
Law has not been in existence for eternity and that the universe doesn't
stop expanding and then start falling back in on itself until it is ready
for another "big bang" ? YOU DON'T ! Because that is another valid
scientific theory.
JG>> I hardly think we have come to a point where we can positively
JG>> identify that something can come from nothing.
DW> Oh, but we have. You show it to us with every post.
And THAT is the best you can do for a response, ridicule , why?
because you know I am right, but can't bring yourself to admit it.
JG>> But it still remains that whatever exists, came from somewhere.
DW> Where did your God come from? Or maybe you're trying to tell us that
DW> God does not exist?
I have already told you where my God came from.
However, NOTHING existed for us, before we existed, and before we came to
the realization that it existed. What is there that is not just a product
of our own perception and definition.
I believe there is MUCH that exists that we are completely unaware of
simply because we do not have the ability to perceive it.
Just like pluto or never existed as far as we were concerned , before we
invented a telescope powerful enough to see it. Just as "atoms" never
existed until we were able to perceive and define them.
And in the same way, the spirit of God never existed until we were able
to
perceive it and define it.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Todd Andlar
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:18
EID:0d51 208369a0
this is what Todd Andlar had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: Claims of
deity co TA> where did you go? (sorry for killing the debating guys)
TA> P.S.
I don't know what happened to everyone else, but I did lose 3 days of
message replies to a bad cluster, regardless of what some people might
have you believe. But hey I'MMMM BACKKKK !
:-)
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity constructs
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:28
EID:99b4 20827480
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Claims of deity
const FR> Where did your deity constructs come from?
jg> If you mean where did God come from , then my answer can
jg> be found in the law of the conservation of energy.
FR> That's been debunked hundreds of times in this very forum and was
FR> pretty much debunked when first claimed hundreds of years ago. It
FR> ignores several facts entirely and doesn't address the question.
jg> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from.
FR> Trying to give your intellectual superiors deity constructs so that
FR> you don't appear so much the fool is pretty low, Jim, even for a
FR> Christanic death cultist. In actual fact physics deny the play pretend
FR> of deity constructs you try to advance and leaves you searching for
FR> where your deity constructs came from.
You seem to be continually demanding physical proof of a non physical
entity. The only proof you will find is spiritual proof. If you choose
to disbelieve in such things , as truth, love, hope , faith , then that
is your choice. You can live without them. I choose to enjoy such
spiritual virtues.
FR> Your intellectual superiors _know_ where they came from.
We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against spirtitual
wickedness in high places. What does intellectual superiorty mean ?
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: Ducks?
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:29
EID:0222 20827480
this is what Sue Armstrong had to say to Jim Germiquet about Ducks?...
SA> lone voice in the wilderness, Jim mournfully howled out "Ducks?"
SA> I can top that. For the past few years, the local gulls have been
SA> deferring to the local pigeons down by the river. It used to be
SA> that when one went down to feed the birds one's old bread, the
SA> gulls would charge in and take the lion's share, with the pigeons
SA> hanging on the margins. About two or three years ago, I noticed
SA> an abrupt change one spring - the pigeons are now ruling the
SA> roost, with the gulls relegated to the fringes. This pecking
SA> order lasts all summer long, so it can't be simply because the
SA> gulls are youngsters.
SA> Why the sudden behaviour change, I'll never know. Perhaps the
SA> pigeons watched one too many Goodfeathers cartoons and it went to
SA> their heads. I'm waiting on spring right now so I can go back
SA> down and see if the situation still holds this year. (I don't like
SA> crusts much, anyway.)
I find that ducks are not very aggressive and so they will move
away when a gull comes down for bread.
Gulls mainly use posturing and noise to scare away other birds. I
think the pigeons upon realizing the gulls display was just that,
learned to ignore them and come in for the food. Also a pigeons
beak is a bit sharper than a ducks and maybe the gulls learned
a bit of respect in some encounters with the pigeons :-). But
I am sure there is a reason somewhere.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Evidence.1
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:18
EID:2877 208369a0
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: Evidence.1...
EF> In a message dated 03-27-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert Sykes:
JG> But my definition of god stops this cycle by simply stating that
> god has always existed, no one created god.
> Energy has always existed, no one created it.
EF> Once again, here are your words:
JG> But it still remains that whatever exists, came from
JG> somewhere.
EF> And besides, if you can say your god and energy "always existed, no
EF> one created it" you could say the same thing about the universe.
OF COURSE ! In fact I equate my creator god with whatever created the
universe, be it a big bang, or an eternal existence.
EF> but I hardly think we have come to a
JG> point where we can positively identify that
JG> something can come from nothing.
This statement was meant to show that this idea of everything beginning
with the "big bang" and nothing preceding it, is total "theory" and must
be believed as much by faith as "god".
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Evidence.2
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:1de6 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about Evidence.2...
DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert Sykes:
JG> Thank you for the analogy. I find it makes things more clear. Okay now
JG> the way I see it, as far as we know, all life has come from a previous
JG> life form. Back through the generations from offspring to parent. As
JG> far as we know, life cannot happen "spontaneously" , but must come
JG> from a parent life form.
DW> Is your God alive? If so, where did he come from?
How many times do I have to say it before you actually pay attention.
************************************
* *
* G O D I S A S P I R I T ! *
* *
************************************
Not a physical being ! Even the bible says that.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: God "Obviously" Real
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:992d 20827480
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about God "Obviously"
Re EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Martin Goldberg:
JG> Well obviously Jesus and God are real because there are MILLIONS of
> people who believe in them and act upon those beliefs.
EF> So ASTROLOGY must be true as well!
EF> And ............ E*L*V*I*S !!!
I didn't say true, I said REAL. Astrology IS real. Elvis IS real, whether
or not he is alive is often questioned.
Even Donald Duck is REAL. He is a REAL cartoon character. I didn't say
he was a person or alive, but he is REAL , he exists as a cartoon
character.
God exists as a spirit. What is a spirit ? Check you dictionary first
for the BASIC qualities, and then we can discuss our own personal
qualities.
It is like I can tell you I have a DOG. But you won't have any idea what
kind of dog until we discuss it further. I can then tell you I have a
retriever, I can then tell you it is a golden retreiver, then it is
2 years old then that it knows how to fetch, then that it once ....
and on and on.
I use the same approach with god. I do not say, your god is not real.
I listen to what you tell me about your god. Then I will decide if it is
real to me.
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Jim Germiquet is ONE evil fuckin
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:28
EID:fcab 20827480
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Jim Germiquet
is ONE DR> However, no god has ever said or written anything, so the issue
is mote.
jg> And many men choose to twist what god
jg> is telling us to fit what they want to do.
FR> YOU are the evil bastard who's using your death cult deity constructs
FR> to justify inhumanity. YOU are the evil bastard who WILLINGLY joined
FR> the single most destructive cult to ever hack, chop, burn, slaughter,
FR> rape, torture, hang, drown over the entire face of the Earth.
This sounds like the ranting of a person going through "denial". Why
are you being so "defensive " ? Do you have a guilty conscience ?
I am the fourth of four children, so I am hardly a "bastard".
As far as being evil, I will leave that up to god to decide. I don't
claim the authority or qualifications or objectiveness to make that call.
Funny I personally don't remember ever taking part in such activities.
Perhaps you are mistaking me for some of your other friends who were
with you when these things occurred.
FR> Don't go trying to escape the blame for YOUR actions, Jim. Don't go
And what "actions" are you referring to ? Can you be more specific
on the actions that you personally have seen me commit that are so
horrific as to deserve this disgusting display of name calling and
personal insulting comments ?
FR> trying to demand that "those others" are using the Christanic death
FR> cult to justify their actions... YOU are the evil that perpetuate the
FR> death cult. YOU are the evil that demands kidnap and rape of surviving
FR> orphans is perfectly acceptable. YOU ARE THE EVIL that has washed this
FR> planet in the blood of countless MILLIONS of innocent people -- all
for
FR> the sake of a lie.
FR> Lose the justification for tyranny, Jim. Lose the death cult.
Sorry, but again in your fanatical ravings, you are hallucinating if
you have seen me kidnapping or raping anyone. Perhaps you are on
drugs right now, if so please indicate so that I will have more
understanding as to the tone of your message.
FR> ~*~ WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, AND ARE GOING TO PERMANENTLY
FR> SUFFER DOWN THERE. AND I'LL BE LAUGHING AT ALL THE ATHEIST
FR> BASTARDS IN THIS ECHO, WHEN I'M UP IN HEAVEN. - Christopher
FR> Calabrese
This is a good example of where the God I listen to would not support such
an outburst. Love rejoices not in iniquity. When I am in heaven, I would
be
weeping tears of sadness at the suffering of others.
And I can understand your anger at Christianity when you see such a
message.
I also indicated that I did not approve of such behavoir as murder
and rape or war, but was indicating that people in the past do not hold the same values as myself. I merely expressed
a reason why people of so long ago may have PERCIEVED god as telling them
to do such things. Or perhaps why they may have had to do such things
in order to protect themselves from a further rebellion and onslaught
from their enemies in the future. I would wish that there were no evil
and fighting in the world so that such defensive posturing would not
be necessary at all.
... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:29
EID:42f6 20827480
this is what Sue Armstrong had to say to Jim Germiquet about Kenneth is
atheist..
MG> yAre you as simple minded as you present yourself here?
JG> What is wrong with being simple minded ? I like the idea? The
JG> simpler the better. WHy try to make things complicated if they
JG> don't have to be.
SA> It's one thing to be simple of habit. It's quite another to be
SA> simple-minded to the point of being unable to grasp complex
SA> thought, though the problem not be any biological shortcoming.
SA> The world is not as it was 2,000 years ago; it is much more
SA> complex and since we all live in the world of today, not then, it
SA> behooves us all to understand the world of today - and that
SA> includes such simple concepts as the Circular Argument.
SA> Saying that one has evidence that gods do or do not exist on the
SA> basis of a book that claims this (and no other), or saying that
SA> this book is the word of a god because the book says so, is not
SA> unlike saying "The wonderful thing about Tiggers/Is that Tiggers
SA> are wonderful things."
I certainly don't believe I have done this. I have shown that the
concepts in the bible are merely expressions of things we deal
with every day of our lives. For example the idea of "you reap what
you sew" is much more than a fable. It is a concept !
The boy who cried wolf is a TRUISM, regardless of whether the incident
ever took place in reality, it takes place every day in many ways.
The world has changed. We kill each other with uzi's and nuclear bombs
now instead of spears and arrows. But it hasnt changed in that
WE STILL KILL EACH OTHER ! Why ? greed, lust, anger, you name it.
These are the kind of things in the bible that are as relevant today
as they were 10,000 year ago.
... But soft, what light through yonder tagline breaks?
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Or maybe just sugar
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:29
EID:bd84 20827480
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Or maybe just
sugar..
JG> I certainly would not approve of legislation that deny's
jg> the civil rights of anyone.
FR> Then you're against the Focus on the Family cult. They were the cult
FR> that started Prop 2 in Colorado which denied individuals the right to
FR> legal redress when they're discriminated against simply because they're
FR> homosexuals.
FR> Christianity is utterly evil. And so are you.
You certainly are the most judegmental person I have come across in this
echo so far. Or at least the most vocal :-)
First of all I would have to know the specifics of any topic before I
could comment on it. I certainly question your own objectiveness with
the way you throw the word "cult" around. You seem to be a "labeller" ,
who doesn't care about the issue being presented , but just reacts to
a word like "christian" like a bull does to a matadors cape.
... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Or maybe just sugar
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:19
EID:c1eb 208369a0
this is what Marilyn Burge had to say to Jim Germiquet about Or maybe just
sugar. MB> On (26 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Kevin D. Mckenzie...
JG> It is very important to make sure that these accusations, are
JG> not just the perceptions of those who might see the bill as
JG> limitting their own violation of the rights of others. In the
JG> gay community especially for me was this disgusting
JG> organization involved with the "Boys loving men" garbage.
JG> Even between heterosexuals pedeophilia is against the law.
JG> Why would these people want it to be one of their "rights" ?
JG> This is not a case of discrimination or violating Gay mens
JG> rights by not allowing them to sexually molest children.
MB> You're talking about NAMBLA. The rule of thumb is that your rights
MB> stop at the other person's nose. (I have the right to swing my
MB> fist, but that right stops at your nose.) Following that logic,
MB> NAMBLA is all wet, regardless of whether equal rights are granted
MB> to homosexuals or not. The reasoning is simple: equal rights for
MB> homosexuals are granted to them on condition that BOTH parties
MB> involved have given full consent. We don't recognize children as
MB> having the ability to give full, informed consent; therefore NO
MB> adult, regardless of sexual orientation, has the right to have sex
MB> with children.
MB> Homosexuals want EQUAL rights, not SPECIAL rights; the "right" to
MB> have sex with children would give them MORE rights than hetero-
MB> sexuals have. NAMBLA is an extremely small group. Although they
MB> are extremely vocal, their numbers are exceedingly small. ALL
MB> reasonable people -- gay and straight -- view them as a bunch of
MB> sickos. They are merely using the homosexual movement and riding
MB> its coattails because of the ignorance most heterosexuals have
MB> regarding human sexuality. Without that ignorance, they would be
MB> unable to ride the gay movement's coattails in the flagrant manner
MB> that they do.
Well I think it would give the gay community much more credibility
if they were more vocal in their own condemnation of this group of
people.
I am really getting weary and fed up with "gay rights" and "womens
rights" and all the "minority rights". It should be "EQUAL RIGHTS" !
And I find it so unfair that just about everyone has a special interest
group to fight for their rights except "white males between the ages
of 25 and 45". I find myself aching to reach the age of 45 so that some
one will give me a helping hand for a change :-)
... MONEY TALKS ... but all mine ever says is GOODBYE!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Seed
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:d12f 208369a0
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Seed...
jg> Well I lost all my message replies <50+) due to a bad cluster.
FR> To judge by your dishonesty past, I suggest that you're lying.
Well I am not, but people usually judge others by their own standards :-)
... Tag line thievery ... On the next Geraldo!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:29
EID:79ea 20827480
this is what Sue Armstrong had to say to Jim Germiquet about Tennessee Commandmen
JG> And then encouraging people to abide by them.
JG> Would you prefer they encouraged people to bear and keep arms.
SA> Um. I don't know where you're posting from, as I couldn't find net
SA> 1:2424 in my nodelist, but citizens of the USA do have the right
SA> to do so, whether anyone likes it or not (and we here in Canada do
SA> not have such a right, whether anyone likes it or not. It
SA> basically comes down to differing perspectives on the concept of a
SA> "right", as well as socio-cultural and historical factors.)
JG> Lower the drinking and and legalize marijuana ?
SA> Depends. Most US states seem to have a drinking age of about 21,
SA> As for marijuana, I find people high on that stuff to be less
SA> obnoxious - and less dangerous - than people who've had one too
The real point I was making was not so much choosing the "lesser evil".
But why we choose one at all. Of course getting drunk on booze and
becoming obnoxious is worse than smoking marijuana and acting like a
good boy scout.
However is it not possible for example that buy legalizing or encouraging
drug use, we are promoting a harmful activity that could lead to the use
of such drugs as cocaine or crack and all of its terrible addictive
and health dangers?
And as you mention, lowering the drinking age to a point that people
not old enough to be reponsible enough to use them properly will
feel free to partake. The same with gun laws. You don't give a loaded
gun to a three year old.
It certainly is a shame also when there are so many 30+ yr olds who are
no more responsible in their use of such things than a 3 yr old as as
such everyone has to be denied the priviledge to protect us from the
abusers.
... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:28
EID:0008 20827480
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: Thumb-sucking
EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Karl Schneider:
> I never said it was bullshit, I said it may have been perceived or
> interpreted incorrectly.
EF> That's funny. You don't hesitate at all to interpret the Bible (and
do
EF> so in ways that coincide with your personal views.) and tell us all
EF> exactly what things mean.
Of course not, and I would expect you to present your views and
interpretations in the same manner. I may not agree with you , but
you certainly have those same options as I do. But just maybe if we
listen to each other with the desire to more fully understand the
topic, we will come away with a more complete idea of it. Like the 3
blind men and the elephant. If they would listen to each other, they
would have a better idea of what an elephant really is .
JG> You also perceive it as a product of this
> order of man. 10,000 years ago, mans perception of God or what is
> good or right or proper was not the same as ours.
EF> So, again, why would you want to ordain their ancient laws in todays
EF> constitution?
I don't. As I said before , I am looking for the eternal truth behind the
idea, not just the timely perception of it. We will always see darkly as
through a glass, as long as we must peer through this physical veil into
the spiritual world.
And we will not see at all if we try and define the spiritual world
as a physical one.
> It is like a child, You can only teach it on a level it can comprehend
> So to a toddler, babies come from mommies tummy. Not really a lie, jus
> a simple explanation, based on what a child considers to be mommies tu
> Later the child learns more about the human anatomy and then is told
> where babies come from on a higher level of understanding.
EF> False analogy. The people back then had every bit as much intelligence
EF> as humans have today. They weren't children. Furthermore, your god
But what about "knowledge" ? Did they have all the dinosaur fossils
that we do today ? Did they have the telescopes and electron
microscopes that we have today , in order to define the "physical"
things and even PERCIEVE the world as being round instead of flat?
Did they even have as precise a language as we have developed today
that we might be able to understand and translate properly the total
idea or concept that had to be expressed in a language that I would
think contained far fewer words.
EF> didn't treat them like children - unless you think the death penality
EF> for minor transgressions is how you are supposed to treat a child.
EF> Violation of at least 8 of the ten commandments were CAPITAL offenses.
And that is once again a social act. In china they are still killing
children just because the parents have already fulfilled their quota.
EF> And another thing. You don't teach a child blind obedience - which is
EF> what your god demanded - you explain the reasons behind things. But
I taught my child blind obedience when he was a child. I tapped his hand
and with a very stern look said NO ! Because when my child was first
crawling around in his diapers, he didn't understand that electrical
cords were dangerous or that touching the phone buttons could add
mega bucks to his long distance bills. Of course I kept an eye on
my children as much as possible. But they soon learned not to touch
the cords and phone and that gave me the freedom to pay a bit
more attention to my own personal interests and less time getting
up and moving the child away from the phone or electrical outlets.
Now when the child reaches the age where he 1) Understands the
reason and 2) Respects and obeys, then I can tell him WHY he
shouldn't do things. The old testament was for babies. Thou shalt
not do A B C D E F G etc... The new testament says thou shalt Alphabetize
and understanding and obeying that one word concept will automatically
fulfill all those old testament A B C 's
EF> your god said you obey because I am god and tell you to. Look at what
EF> he said to Job after the sheer hell he allowed him to go through.
Because a babys wisdom is foolishness to a parent and
a parents wisdom is nonsense and not understandable to a child.
EF> The message is clear: don't ask questions - obey or else.
Thats right. A baby obeys not touching that electrical cord or
else. If he disobeys and touches, it could b ZZZZZZZZZT !
> Exactly. So if the egyptians captured the israelis and made them slave
> would say the egyptians started it.
> God helped them escape from this
> aggressive captor by raising Moses to be a leader who would tell the
> Pharoah to let his people go.
EF> Read your Bible. Your god took away Pharaoh's free will and MADE HIM
EF> refuse to let the Jews go. Here, from a previous post of mine:
No he didn't , he just delayed it for a little while. The pharoah had
already made his decision. But God just delayed it till the time that
he could safely get the Israelis across the red sea.
Just like Saddam Hussein. God had to teach the egyptians the error
of such actions to make sure they would think a bit harder in the
future about attacking gods people.
EF> Oh yeah? Every time Pharaoh realized his "sin" and tried to repent,
EF> your god hardened his heart to make him refuse to allow the Jews to
EF> leave.
MH> Wrong. Pharaoh hardened his own heart after
MH> the first five plagues. It
MH> was only after it became obvious that he had
MH> his mind made up that God
MH> decided to make an example of him.
EF>Not wrong. Read Ex. 10:16,17 ".... I have sinned against the LORD your
EF> God and against you. Now therefore please forgive my sin only this
EF> once and entreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this
EF> death only."
Sort of reminds of the show where Burt Reynolds is trying to kill
himself by swimming as far out into the ocean and then drowning.
AFter swimming out he changes his mind and starts praying for god
to help him make it back. First he says I will give all my money
to the church. As he get closer he gradually reduces the amount to
90% 50% 10% 0% as he struggles up the beach.
People have a tendency to change their minds when the danger is past.
EF>Three verses later.
EF>20: But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he did not let the
EF> children of Israel go."
And this is perhaps the perception of the writer that "god hardened
the Pharoahs heart" perhaps that was just the concept that the
Pharoah changed his mind. Actually god is often perceived as cause
of things that are not necessarily his doing, just because he allows
it to happen. God gets angry and tosses a lightning bolt down. Well
there are natural reasons for lightning bolts. That could either
be a metaphor, or a natural occurence attributed to god by an ignorant
people.
But it certainly has teaching value like the story of the boy who cried
wolf, and it certainly does not make the lesson , any less true.
EF>Because God hardened his heart. It says so right here:
EF>Ex. 14:4 "Then I will harden Pharaoh's heart, so that he will pursue
EF> them and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over his army, that the
EF> Egyptians may know that I am the Lord" And they did so.
EF> ------------
JG> God knew that Pharoah would chase after the jews after he let them go
> kill them all. So God deliberately stalled the Pharoahs decision until
> was time for a natural earthquake to occur that would make the red sea
> crossable for the jews, and then resettle while the egyptians were
> following in an attempt to kill the escaping jews.
EF> Ex.14:4 says it as plain as day: your god hardened Pharaoh's heart
EF> (taking away his free will) and MADE him pursue the Jews. It is
EF> UNDENIABLE!
Sure seems to be. So basically god used the pharoahs army to teach the
Egyptians a lesson. Just as desert storm was suppose to teach Saddam a
lesson about invading Kuwait. But the original intent was of the
Egyptians and god wanted a more permanent reminder than the plagues of
his power.
EF> How many times did your god harden Pharaoh's heart? Ex. 9:12, 10:1,
EF> (10:2 he explains why he is doing it: so that Moses can tell his
EF> children the mighty things God did in Egypt, so they will know he is
EF> THE LORD.), 10:20, 10:27 (read 11:9-10, God gives his reasons again)
EF> 14:8, 14:17. Don't take my word for it. Read your Bible.
>
> The egyptians started it by enslaving the jews.
EF> Really? How much did the average Egyptian have to say about it? How
EF> much did the Egyptian children have? You know, the ones God killed
on
EF> passover?
How much say did the people of Iraq have over what Saddam got them into?
The people support their leader, they pay for his crime.
... Fun, fun, fun, 'til her daddy takes her Blue Wave away!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:18
EID:b29a 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about Thumb-sucking
Fundy. DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG> I merely reiterate that any murders done on earth have been done by
JG> people CLAIMING it was gods will.
DW> Just as people made claims about the miracles and resurrection of
DW> Jesus? Are you going to get that wound in your foot cleaned and
DW> bandaged, or just let it rot?
I have never indicated that the belief of these claims is based on
anything other than FAITH ! My belief in Jesus has nothing to do with
the claims of his "miracles". It is his teachings that I see truth in.
As for his "resurrection".
In the words of the song "He Lives".
I serve a risen savoir , he's in the world today.
I know that he is with me whatever men may say.
I see his hand of mercy I hear his voice of care.
And just the time I need him, He's always there.
He lives. He lives.
Christ Jesus lives today.
He walks with me and talks with me.
Along lifes narrow way.
He lives. He lives.
Salvation to impart.
You ask me how I know he lives?
He lives within my heart !
DW>> Mr. Germ-infested-bag-of-pus, have you ever seen Jesus rise from
DW>> the dead?
JG> If there is a moderator on this base,
DW> There is. His name is Styx Allum. Feel free to direct any complaints
DW> to him.
JG> I would appreciate not having to take this kind of verbal
JG> abuse.
DW> I would appreciate not having my rights continually eroded by you and
What right has been eroded ? Your right to freedom of speech ?
DW> your fellow Christians. I would apprectiate it if you and your fellow
DW> Christians would come to learn the meaning of the phrase "I am not
DW> interested in hearing more about your mythologies". I would appreciate
Then why are you participating in this echo ?
DW> it if you and your fellow Christians would stop trying to pass your
DW> mythology off as science. I would appreciate a great many things. Maybe
DW> we can come to some sort of arrangement?
How about respect for one another right to our own opinions and the right
to express those opinions without being called insulting names ?
JG> I know that it just shows how rude and ignorant you really are
JG> David.
DW> That's it, Jimbob. Stick your head in the sand and hope the
nasty
DW> atheists will take their hurtful questions elsewhere.
Your questions do not bother me. I find your making fun of my name
quite insulting however.
JG> But it is still verbal abuse and should not be allowed on a FIDO
JG> NET ECHO AREA !
DW>
DW> Maybe you should try giving Fidonet HQ a call?
DW> Have you ever read Policy 4, Jim? DO you even know what Policy 4 *is*?
DW> You might want to learn more before stating what should and should not
DW> be allowed on a "FIDO NET ECHO AREA !"
I suppose I should if it means being verbally assaulting other's in
the echo is an acceptable practice.
DW> I notice that you feel you should be allowed to play games with Dan
DW> Ceppa's last name, but when someone does it with yours, you cry foul.
DW> Does the word hypocrisy mean anything to you, Jim? It is also a sin.
I don't remember EVER playing games with Mr. Ceppa's last name? What are
you talking about ?!?!?!
... Tag line thievery ... On the next Geraldo!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:18
EID:57d5 208369a0
this is what Lynda Bustilloz had to say to Jim Germiquet about Thumb-sucking
Fund LB> David and Jim were killing time yakking about Thumb-sucking Fundy:
DW> Mr. Germ-infested-bag-of-pus, have you ever seen Jesus rise from the
DW> dead?
JG> If there is a moderator on this base, I would appreciate not having
to
JG> take this kind of verbal abuse .
JG> I know that it just shows how rude and ignorant you really are David
.
JG> But it is still verbal abuse and should not be allowed on a FIDO NET
JG> ECHO AREA !
LB> I QUITE agree -- you should send it to FIDO HQ and let them deal with
LB> it! I'll bet they will be MOST displeased!
Shrug. David says that rule #4 allows him to take such liberties.
I guess I should just consider where it comes from . It really is a
comment on David's mentality, and shows what type of person he is.
Kind of destroys his credibility as far as I am concerned.
... SENILE.COM found . . . Out Of Memory . . .
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:19
EID:0008 208369a0
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: Thumb-sucking
EF> In a message dated 03-27-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
> I merely reiterate that any murders done on earth have been done by
> people CLAIMING it was gods will.
EF> True. So why do you pay any attention to the Bible? It is crammed full
EF> of stories of God both killing people and ordering his "children" to
EF> kill people. Often for petty reasons. Dozens and dozens of examples.
EF> If you disbelieve it all then there is no justification to believe
EF> anything else within the Bible.
Because in between the historical stories of the Jewish nation, lie a
lot of wise sayings and concepts. And in the neew testament, the teachings
of Jesus Christ hold amazing logic and wisdom in my opinion. If you would
judge Jesus, do it by his words, and not by the actions of those who
would claim to be christians.
Read the sermon on the mount in matthew and the lords prayer and try to
conceptualize it. Read the gospel of John. But do so with a desire to
UNDERSTAND it and not to ridicule it.
JG> And while god may have allowed people to follow their murderous desire
> and to protect themselves from said people,
> he certainly does not desire
> that his children kill one another or themselves.
EF> No not "certainly." You have nothing upon which to base that
EF> conclusion besides your wish to believe it. It is speculative opinion.
EF> Please label your opinions as such. Avoid stating them as if they were
EF> fact.
I do try every several messages to indicate that EVERYTHING I say in this
message base is my opinion and not fact. The whole idea of Christianity
and god are based on FAITH unlike science which deals with physical
facts.
Any opinions I express about god are opinions on MY perception of God.
And everyone can feel free to accept or reject them. I merely take the
liberty of expressing how my God reveals himself to me.
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: troll
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:29
EID:ee7a 20827480
this is what Sue Armstrong had to say to Jim Germiquet about troll...
SA> lone voice in the wilderness, Jim mournfully howled out "troll"
MH> Dunno about proud, but he loves me still (and you too, for that
MH> matter.) That's good enough for me.
JG> I thought "trolling" was another word for "fishing". Jesus said I will
SA> That's "trawling". In Fido parlance, "trolling" refers to yanking
SA> someone's chain.
JG> make you fishers of men if you follow me.
SA> I think I'll stay away from these "fishers of men", considering
SA> what fishers do to fish.
Good point :-)
But we do understand the concept of fishing beyond that idea as well.
Fishing for compliments, fishing around in a drawer for stamps.
Fishing for answers.
Trying to find or locate and bring into the fold.
... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Twisting the "Word"
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:19
EID:ea79 208369a0
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Twisting
the "Word EF> In a message dated 03-26-96 Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Germiquet:
> jg> And many men choose to twist what god
> jg> is telling us to fit what they want to do.
EF> Or to fit what they want to believe. Like here:
> JG>Whoever comes to me and does not (be unwilling to obey the teachin
> JG>his father and mother.....and even life itself, cannot be my
> disciple.
I merely used that particular dictionary definition of the word "hate",
because it expressed my opinion of the context in which Jesus wants us
to "hate" our family.
We are often brought up to believe improper things. When we become
adults, and especially if we would follow the TRUTH of God, we must
be willing to not follow any wrong teachings or practices which we
may have been raised to follow. This would surely upset our family and
cause strife.
For example, A prejudiced white couple may have raised their child
to hate blacks and treat them as animals and slaves. How would they
feel if their white child falls in love with a black man ? Or allows
a black man to sit at the same table or ath the front of their bus?
Get the picture?
... If it wasn't for C, we would be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Very much mythology!
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:29
EID:9656 20827480
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Very much mythology!.
jg> Oh so now some guy who doesn't even believe in god
jg> is going to claim to be an expert on god.
FR> It is an undeniable fact that those who don't believe in fictional
FR> constructs have a much better understanding of the reasons why others
FR> believe in them. It is also an undeniable fact that the origins of your
FR> deity constructs and the evolution your deity constructs have gone
FR> through over the centuries are better understood by those who don't
FR> suffer under the delusions believers do.
I am sorry Dr. Rice, I had no idea you were so knowledgeable in the
area of Christianity and spirituality, even though you don't believe
in them.
FR> The tureism that you must sep back from something before you can see
FR> it holds.
You have stepped so far back that you can't even see that it is there, let
alone what it holds.
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:18
EID:d0e5 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about Your Daily
Murder... DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert Sykes:
DW> What happens if your wife-to-be dies soon after your marriage, and you
DW> eventually marry another woman? Which one will you "continue united
is
DW> a spiritual union" with?
This question is answered by Jesus. he says that in "heaven" it is not
like that. There is no male or female. Perhaps we will all be united
in a spiritual union.
NS>> I see. Those women and children were aggressive; they needed to
NS>> be killed because you couldn't turn your back on them, right?
NS>> Oh, dangerous babies, armed with drool; dangerous mommies backed
NS>> into a corner, ready to kill any Jew they could, is that it?
NS>> What a putz.
JG> And do you think the so called civilized Americans were any better
JG> slaughtering indian women and children and stealing the land you
JG> now claim as your own ? Are you a natural American Indian ?
JG> And the Americans who napalmed villages in vietnam ?
DW> Straw man. Where did Norbert claim that he supported any of those
DW> actions? Where has he tried to justify any of those actions? Why are
DW> you bringing them up?
Surely you must be deliberately refusing to understand these replies .
I am merely pointing out that those people were not so different than
we are today. But you roll yourself up in your American flag and pretend
to be more civilized than "those heathens of the bible".
JG> at hand. While nattering about the injustices done by soldiers out
JG> there putting their lives on the line, against an enemy just waiting
JG> to hang them by their testicles.
DW> The Midianite women and children were going to hang the Israelite
DW> soldiers by their testicles? These must have been some pretty damned
DW> scary women and children.
Please try and keep with the program in your rabid dog like attacking
of everything I say. Obviously i was referring to soldiers in general as
I was making comparisons to various wars.
NS>> Ah, but your other words show this to be a lie. Hitting women,
NS>> killing women, raping women, killing children, perhaps even
NS>> raping children (for who knows how young some of the virgins
NS>> taken were?), all of these are things you have excused, condoned,
NS>> or advocated.
No one has excused, condoned or advocated. I merely pointed out what may
have been the reasoning or justification used by those people and by
such noble Americans who have done the same thing to many people in
MODERN history ! NONE of it do I excuse , condone or advocate.
I have often said that it is sad that we even have to deal with such
examples of mans inhumanity to man. But I have pointed out that also
PERHAPS in order to communicate with such men, you have to speak the
same language ? But of course I dont expect you to do any more with
this comment than to make all kinds of wild eyed gnashing teeth attacks.
JG> And I personally have never done any of the above, nor condoned it.
JG> I have only indicated, that it is unfair to judge a civilization
JG> 10,000 years gone by, by todays standards.
DW> Does morality change, Jim? Was it okay to kill and rape innocent women
DW> and children 3,000 years ago? (Just what society are you referring to
DW> as existing 10,000 years ago?) Did God approve of that kind of thing
at
DW> the time?
NS>> Avoid Preston's question & deny that your god encouraged war.
NS>> Surprize.
JG> My god would never encourage war. And cries over the fact that some
JG> of his children must defend themselves against other of his children
JG> who choose to attack them.
DW> God was unable to defend the Israelites from the Midianites?
God allows man the freedom to do as he wishes. It is up to man to
STOP THE INSANITY ! To listen to god as god tells us to "love one another".
Thou shalt not kill ! God gives us the advice, we choose to ignore it
and suffer the consequences.
But of course it is easier to "blame god" than take responsibility for
our own choices and actions.
... File not found, I'll load something *I* think is interesting.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:19
EID:a920 208369a0
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: Your
Daily Mur EF> In a message dated 03-27-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert
Sykes:
> JG> No one is saying the people who lost the war would "feel better",
> JG> would only be sorry that they hadn't been the victors of the slau
> JG> and would rather have taken the Israelites heads home as trophies
> JG> War is a man made thing, not from god.
EF> "The Lord is a man of war" - Exodus 15:3 (Moses speaking.)
EF> "Now go, attack the Amakelites and totally destroy everything that
EF> belongs to them. Do not spare them: put to death men and women,
EF> children and infants, cattle and sheep, camel and donkeys." -1 Sam
EF> 15:3 (God speaking)
EF> As you say, you have your personal opinion and others have theirs. As
EF> far as you know, God _was_ behind all those "Christian soldiers,
EF> marching off to war" all those countless times. They certainly thought
EF> so, and that's the problem: religion encourages just the sort of
EF> intolerance that produces wars. If you _KNOW_ god is on your side then
EF> any who oppose you, oppose God. If they oppose God then they deserve
EF> to die. Just open up the Old Testament anyplace and start reading -
EF> you'll find justification.
OF COURSE ! I agree whole heartedly ! But not "as far as I know" was god
behind all those christian soldier, as far as THEY know :-)
WOAH ... again it depends on the individual. "if they oppose God then they
deserve to die " With my personal understanding of my perception of god,
I cannot judge any other person, and therfore could not judge that they
"deserve to die". My understanding of god merely says that true life
is a "spiritual reality" as opposed to this "physical perception" of it.
Death then becomes a lack of this spirituality. This is a matter of
choice, not a matter of inflicting death upon another. SOme people choose
to think that god throws sinners into hell for their disobedience of sin.
I prefer to see hell being the natural consequence of sin, and that god
does everything he can to convince us of the foolishness of pursuing that
course. Just as a parent would dissuade their children from becomming
drug addicts, or playing in the middle of the road to save them from
the "hell" or "death" that such choices naturally bring about.
JG>My god would never encourage war.
EF> Then your god ain't the one in the Bible. Case closed.
:-)
Perhaps I just dont perceive him as some in the bible did .
Jesus said I come not to destroy the Laws of Moses, but to give
them real meaning.
Jesus accused the pharisees and sadducees of obeying the "word" of
the law while ignoring the "spirit" of the law. In other words,
interpretting those words in a way to suit their own purposes instead
of the context in which god meant them. And THAT is why you see such
a warped perception of god inthe bible. PERCEPTION PERCEPTION PERCEPTION.
It was the problem Jesus dealt with then and it is the same today.
BUT If we are "born again" to a desire to know the TRUTH of the bible,
then we will interpret it in the way god meant it. because God=Truth.
SO whether you are reading the "bible" or a peanuts comic strip, god
can show you the "truth" of a concept being presented about life.
that is why Jesus used parables. Because people interested in the TRUTH
would easily recognize the principle or concept, while those intent on
living the lie would insist on misinterpretting the data or understanding
the concept.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 04 Apr 96 07:52:11
EID:a8dc 20843e80
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 0b0570bf
REPLY: 1:116/19 02CBB16C
On (01 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> What a fire and brimstone upbringing you paint for me, Marilyn. Too
AS> bad it is at total variance with the facts. I was brought up in the
AS> Episcopal faith, in a very country-clubbish church, where Bishop
AS> Spong would not feel unwelcome. (Much less conservative than the
AS> church that Lynda currently goes to, even though that is of the
AS> same denomination.)
MB> And it didn't teach that turning one's back on God was the worst
MB> thing in the world one could do?
AS> ???? Let's see now, I belong to a religion where Peter, "the rock on
AS> whom I shall build my Church," in Jesus' words, denied Him three
AS> times. Where Moses, Jonah, and many another religious figure tried
to
AS> get out of the clear duty God laid on them. Where one of the more
AS> poignant and subtle sentences is, "I believe; help thou mine
AS> unbelief." Where Paul said, "What I should do, I do not, and what I
AS> should not, I do." I believe in a
AS> forgiving God, who knows that we will sometimes stumble and fall from
AS> His ideals.
MB> I rest my case.
AS> Dropped it, rather.
Not quite. I am talking about renouncing one's religion permanently,
as Judas did. I'm not talking about slipping and picking oneself up,
or otherwise demonstrating one's humanness.
AS> ... Hell hath no fury like an unjustified assumption.
AS> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
AS> --- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
AS> * Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
... HolySmoke: A drive by shooting on the Information Superhighway.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 07:53:29
EID:883b 20843ea0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 dcc3ca27
REPLY: 1:116/19 02CBB96E
On (01 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> (Amused smile.) "Father, forgive them, they know not what
AS> they do," cried an anguished voice from a hill named
AS> Golgotha, two thousand years ago. Yes. He's SO unfair. (Heavy
AS> sarcasm.)
MB> I never said he was unfair; I said he was an asshole and an
MB> hypocrite. I'll stand by those words.
AS> Hmmm. He's a FAIR hypocrite? To me the essence of hypocrisy
AS> is double standardness (which I believe you have accused Him
AS> of before) or duplicity, of saying one thing and meaning
AS> another, which strikes me as unfair. Oh, well, maybe I should
AS> quit while I'm ahead. You think he's fair, so I'll leave it
AS> at that.
According to YOUR defintion, he IS unfair. In fact, he is the
prototype.
AS> ...
AS> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
AS> --- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
AS> * Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
... Life is a sexually transmitted disease.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 07:56:30
EID:883b 20843f00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 abdd4077
REPLY: 1:116/19 02CBCB0C
On (01 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> No. But some of us unconditionally love certain
AS> animals...dogs and cats, for instance...yet still enforce
AS> rules and behavior on the animal, for both his and our good.
MB> I really don't grep your analogy, unless you are saying that
MB> those animals that I love unconditionally I will also condemn
MB> to eternal torment if they cross me.
AS> You do not seperate dogs who are rabid from those who are
AS> well? You don't seperate say, a pit bull who has been known
AS> to attack animals from those who are good-natured? And if you
AS> seperate such animals to their own place, the pit bulls and
AS> those who are bad-temepered will naturally end up...by their
AS> very nature...as more torn up, more hurting, than those who
AS> are in the other pen.
ETERNAL. Remember that word: ETERNAL. Protecting oneself and
others from harm at the expense of a rabid dog can hardly be
compared to ETERNAL TORMENT, now, can it?
AS> So, of all those references to hell, only one refers
AS> specifically to a place of torment, Gehenna is used as a
AS> place of destruction, and the majority refer just to the
AS> abode of the dead.
AS> of Hell.
I posted something similar, and you passed it off as not mollifying
your agony of hell's obvious existence. It really DOES make a
difference who the messenger is (and their own personal outlook),
doesn't it. So much for "truth is truth, regardless of its source."
... Man who fights with wife all day gets no piece at night.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:00:18
EID:883b 20844000
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 6f87a1d1
REPLY: 1:116/19 02CBD3FE
On (01 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> makes the likelihood of the rest of the flock getting away
MB> from the danger just that much better. What appears to
MB> be sacrificial at the individual level can be truly
MB> survival stuff at the genetic level.
AS> And I am not disputing the genetic nature of the bird's
AS> altruism. Who does not reason out its actions; I am just
AS> questioning it on OUR level. Where we can reason it out and
AS> make rational decisions, not instinctive ones.
You are assuming the stated reason is the reason people do
altruistic things. Did it ever occur to you that those who
have a genuine altruistic urge are merely rationalizing that
urge after the fact?
Much of what we do precedes any "explanation" of the "why" of
the action, and the "why" is only formulated on a conscious
level long after the unconscious urge has been acted upon.
... Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ISMS
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:03:31
EID:1dae 20844060
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 27a659ef
REPLY: 1:116/19 035D35B0
On (01 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> BTW, I read a recent article that says there can be a danger
AS> in promoting self-esteem too much...that certain types of
AS> criminals rate too HIGH on self-esteem, and that by pushing
AS> it TOO much, we could be promoting some types of
AS> criminality...sociopathic behavior, con men, people like
AS> that. I'll see if I can find the article, I think you might
AS> be interested.
I could have written the article. We have had quite a "discussion"
at work about spending company resources on "Take our Daughters to
Work Day." I am against it. The "day" was rammed into corporate
consciousness by a bunch of ultra-feminists who were long on dogma
and damned short on critical thinking. It was an outgrowth of a
"study" that was done that, if read closely, came to exactly the
opposite conclusion from what the brain-dead fundy-feminists said
it came to.
In short, a survey was done of a bunch of 11-17 year-olds to
determine their "self-esteem." The numbers proported to support
the "fact" that little girls suffer a sharp decline in the self-
esteem level at about the age of 14. And, of course, the "answer"
to this "problem" was to invent TODTWD.
Well, a closer examination of the study (which, incidentally is
almost impossible to get in any form except the predigested form
that NOW wants you to see ala their brochures), actually shows,
according to the questions that were asked, that BLACK MALES have
the HIGHEST SELF-ESTEEM OF ANY OF THE GROUPS THAT WERE TESTED! One
can easily conclude from that data point alone that self-esteem is
a bad thing. What group has the highest crime rate? highest school
drop-out rate? highest unemployment rate? lowest college-graduate
rate?
And, which group of those tested has the LOWEST crime rate? LOWEST
school drop-out rate? LOWEST unemployment rate? HIGHEST college-
graduate rate? You guessed it: white females, who scored the
lowest on the self-esteem scale.
I had a sort of running battle with the people in Human Resources
via e-mail regarding the validity of the whole TODTWD concept. Had
any study been done that would indicate that spending ONE DAY out
of 365 would in any way ameliorate this dive in self-esteem? was
there any scientific study done that indicated that a low self-
esteem was truly a "bad" thing? Did the study that was done
adequately delineate between "self-esteem" and bravado, "low self-
esteem and an honest assessment of one's strengths and weaknesses?
etc.
The "answers I got were entirely unsatisfactory.
The thing that raised the questions in my head to begin with was
finding out that one of my colleagues had teen-aged twins -- one a
boy, one a girl -- who, she was told, would have to be split up
for the day -- one remaining in school, the other spending the day
at Mom and Dad's workplace. She opted to leave both of them in
school that day. But the gross unfairness of that corporate
decision got me to thinking a bit deeper, and I came up with the
above argument.
... Heaven for climate; Hell for company. Mark Twain
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:44:27
EID:079d 20847d80
MSGID: 1:207/212 5872ca30
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 31607855
On (01 Apr 96) Lee Woofenden wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> It comes from being put down and having the very word for your belief
KD> system turned into a dirty word. It comes from being blamed for all
KD> the evils of the world with absolutely no cause.
LW> Unfortunately, Karen, Christianity _did_ become associated with some
LW> very wrong things through its history--so I wouldn't say there is
LW> _absolutely_ no cause. In my opinion, when Constantine made
LW> Christianity into a state religion in the year 325, that guaranteed
LW> that it would become corrupted. With the move away from state
LW> religions in the past few centuries, I have hopes that Christianity
LW> will right the wrongs of its past and become a more genuine religion
LW> again, rather than a political power as it was for many centuries.
I'm an agnostic, Lee....
... Do not cry over skim milk.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: fear of God 1/2
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:46:01
EID:8f76 20847dc0
MSGID: 1:207/212 b1d76537
REPLY: 1:3615/1.11 31610620
On (02 Apr 96) David Worrell wrote to Karen Davis...
DW> The first thing to do is to check with your new ISP to make sure they
DW> allow IRC, and if you can use any IRC client or just their special
DW> client.
OK... we'll see about that when the stuff comes.
DW> If you're using Windows, the first thing you need to do is go to
DW> http://www.mirc.com/ and download a copy of mIRC 4.0 (an IRC client).
DW> mIRC is the *best* winsock IRC client available, and it is free. You
DW> might also want to download the mIRC FAQ while there. Get the program
DW> set up, and connect to one of the Undernet IRC servers. mIRC comes
DW> with a list of servers, but I forget if they are labelled as to what
DW> net they take you to. Try
DW> Vancouver.bc.ca.undernet.org or lowell.ma.us.undernet.org.
OK.
DW> Once you're connected to a server, type "/join #holysmoke" and it will
DW> take you to the channel. Most of us are there around 11 or 12 pm
DW> Eastern Time.
That's a great time for me here on the left coast.
DW> There will most likely be at least one "person" there when you show
DW> up. If the nickname X is in your channel names list, that is the
DW> channel service bot. Don't bother trying to talk to it - it doesn't
DW> talk back. :)
OK... what I'd like to do is make a point of setting a date about a week
in advance and letting y'all know here so it's more likely someone will
be around to help.
... (add to postlink.cfg) IGNORE-ALL-PROGRAMING-ERRORS=YES
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Angels Or Demons??? [2]
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:53:06
EID:4573 20847ea0
MSGID: 1:207/212 89a8a73d
REPLY: 3:711/933 31606b62
On (01 Apr 96) Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote to Karen Davis...
AG> No other act with Adam is recorded between the birth of Cain and
AG> Abel. We are simply told, '... And she again bore his brother,
AG> Abel. And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and
AG> called his name Seth ...' Since THREE sons were born from TWO acts
AG> by Adam, we know POSITIVELY that ONE of those three WAS NOT the
AG> son of Adam'.
What we KNOW is that more common than superfetation is twin births from
single sexual acts. Whether the twins are identical or fraternal, the
chances are astronomical that they would have different fathers.
... "We could take in an old Steve Reeves movie." -- Frank
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Love of God
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:55:09
EID:0560 20847ee0
MSGID: 1:207/212 510e6636
On (02 Apr 96) Brad Jackson wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> I'd like to know how you can be sure it is the "word of God."
BJ> I know this to be the word of God because he revealed it to me,
BJ> through prayer.
[gag]
BJ> Mark 4:12 That seeing they [may see], and not perceive; and hearing
BJ> they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be
BJ> converted, and sins should be forgiven them.
It seems to me that the surest way to convince someone is to speak
clearly and with evidence. Not in parables.
KD> Brad, how do you justify this with your opposition to the Trinity? How
KD> can God make himself?
BJ> Karen God made Jesus the Flesh in Mary then dewlt with in him.
BJ> John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the
BJ> flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You didn't answer the question.
BJ> John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
BJ> beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
BJ> full of grace and truth.
You don't beget yourself.
... No good deed ever goes unpunished. - 285th Rule
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE ON
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:57:04
EID:5f15 20847f20
MSGID: 1:207/212 0a6a9113
On (02 Apr 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Karen Davis...
JB> Well, at least Girl Scouts do not exclude gays and atheists. Not to
JB> say that they don't still have their individual bigots on all issues
JB> but
JB> National policy is that a leader's private life has nothing whatever
JB> to do with a troop as long as the leader keeps it that way. And that's
JB> not a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. Straight, religious leaders are
JB> just as prohibited from bringing up their own lives/religions/sexual
JB> practices.
Sounds fair...
... Are "Watch Out For Children" signs birth control ads?
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:57:47
EID:3c43 20847f20
MSGID: 1:207/212 fa97d71f
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89542C84
On (01 Apr 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Karen Davis...
DC> One of these days I'll give it a try again. It's still sitting
DC> on my bookshelf. Never could get into it like the Hobbit or
DC> the Trilogy...
No, it's nowhere near as engaging as the other 4 books.
KD> ! Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
DC> I guess that it's required reading to join your BBS!
No BBS, really just a point. My bossnode preferred to give me my own
node #.
... ///////||||||||||||||| Oh No! Tagline dominos! Run!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy [1]
|Date: 04 Apr 96 15:59:37
EID:652f 20847f60
MSGID: 1:207/212 e7fd50c1
REPLY: 1:3819/163 31621C98
On (01 Apr 96) Mark Barnett wrote to Karen Davis...
MB> That was one of the proublems I used to have with the Church. But then
MB> I tried a differant church and found a Godly Church and Spoke to the
MB> pastor about some of the things in my life that were not "right" by
MB> the other church I had went to he said that stuff was not important.
The question is always which church is godly and which isn't.
MB> Well I have to agree with you on the first part of this, and sadly I
MB> must agree with the second part of this. Some people are to fanatical
MB> to belive that some evidence that does not prove what they belive in.
MB> That is sad for any evidence ethier for or agianst should be listened
MB> to.
Real evidence, not faked up garbage.
MB> I have had thoughts along that line myself. I alwasy wandered even
if
MB> evolution was right then were did the stuff come from in the first
MB> place. I was talking to a scientist about it one time and when I got
MB> to a certian place he told me that it "just was" was to me that is
MB> just as good as no anser.
But God creating it all is no answer either, because who made Him then?
... (add to postlink.cfg) IGNORE-ALL-PROGRAMING-ERRORS=YES
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Try reading some hist
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:14:31
EID:9149 208441c0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Brad Jackson <=-
>> And that is where you make your mistake sir. Jesus said "they will
>> know you are christians by your love one for another".
FR> While ignoreing the rest of the bloody Christanic mythologies and the
FR> whole of world history. Adolf Hitler was no different than the
FR> thousands of tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him.
FR> The way one 'tells' a Christian is by their professed belief in the
FR> Christanic death cult.
bj> Where on earth did you get such information?
FR> Perhaps you should actually read the history of the Christianic death
FR> cult and stop trying to pretend that Christians are incapable of the
FR> inhuman tyranies they have instigated against humanity.
FR> Adolf Hitler took the tools which were created for exactly what he
FR> did. The Christian scapegoating of Jews was traditional -- or don't
FR> you know anything about how Christanic death cultists would claim Jews
FR> were "nailing" their "sacramental hosts" so that they could murder
and
FR> take over their lands and properties?
Hi Fredric
I quoted your message so you may go back and re-read what you
wrote. You are correct in saying people that claimed to be Christians
did all kinds of terrible things back in history! You are way off
base when saying Adolf Hitler was a christian! He was a catholic,
not a Christian! There is a big difference Fredric. So don't go
around piling all this garbage on Christians, read your history
first and see that they claimed to be christians. After all Fredric
you could claim to be a christian, but that doesn't make it true not
does it? Just like the catholics do the same!
I hope this helped clear some of the wrong information you have been
reading about.
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Apostles
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:14:32
EID:2329 208441c0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Brad Jackson <=-
KM> Actually Steve I do realize it, but we will see if your still
KM> amused about it, after judgement day.
FR> Ah, yes. The Christanic death cultist's threat when they have no
FR> reason or logic.
bj> Steve seems to be a lost soul.
FR> Why not do what Christanic death cultists have done for centuries?
FR> Kill him.
Hi Fredric
Again, please don't lump cults, like catholics into what a real
christian would do. If you do not believe me please read the book
of Acts for the plan of salvation and then ask a catholic if they
have followed what is written in the book of Acts! My goodness
Fredric these type of people even kneel to idols, like some guy
hanging on a cross. Or how about praying to the virgin Mary. God
didn't want us to pray to anyone but him.
Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship [no other god]: for the LORD,
whose name Jealous, a jealous God:
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God
[with all thy heart], and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
If they loved God like he said to do here they would have no room
for any other worshipings would they?
Brad
... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
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|From: Paul Churchill
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: [1/2] Tithe
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:43:00
EID:26cd 20844d60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163e00d
JG> People who give money to their church, are certainly helping
JG> the poor that those churches support. But that money also pays the
JG> rent for that church. It pays to keep it clean. It pays to make it look
JG> beautiful. How much nicer is it to be in a church with a choir dressed
JG> in blue robes instead of ragged shirts and blue jeans. And these people
JG> pay for this priviledge.
Hmm, I suppose you are right, it is better to look at people in nice
robes, than in ragged shirts. Of Course there are thousands of children
in
Africa who cannot tell the difference cause they are blind due to a lack
of about a bucks worth of vitamin A.
Let me give you another example. One of the poorest countries in
the world (forget which, somewhere in Africa) has one of the biggest
Catherdrals in the world. The country is starving, yet the leader poured
a good hunk of the national budget into building this giant catherderal
for the poor to stair at.
JG>Or would you suggest that presidents of religious tv stations should
not
JG>be paid just like the presidents of any secular tv station expect to
be
JG>paid?
KW> Jimmy boy, that is exactly what I am suggesting. That the presidents
KW> of religious tv stations are just like their less 'godly' counterparts.
JG> I think that is terribly unfair. In fact it is Un Christian and
JG> probably even Un American and a bit communistic.
The New Testament is a very "communistic" document, deal with it. Until
its corruption in europe, Christianity was a relgion of the poor and the
powerless.
JG> on an equal basis for the work performed. A Christian should not have
JG> to work at the same job as a non christian and then get paid less. If
JG> you use that kind of logic. Then a non christian getting paid minimum
JG> wage, working alongside a christian would be forcing that christian
to
JG> work for less' than the minimum wage. How can you justify that ?
JG> Those presidents of christian tv stations perform a service and get
JG> paid accordingly, but at least, they are paid by the people who are
JG> using that service.
Mr Robertson gets more than wages. He made a good hunk of his fortune
by having his church buy assets, then sell them to him. Mr Robertson is
a
very rich man. If the president of NBC got rich the same way Pat did, he
would be sued.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Paul Churchill
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Re: Bible Verses
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:43:01
EID:fab3 20844d60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163e00e
AG> I also pastor a tiny Church, moderate BIBLE_BELIEVERS echo, I manage
AG> Bible Believers BBS, and broadcast five weekly Bible Believers radio
AG> programs in addition I attempt to open the faith to other
AG> correspondents in the echoes. However there can _only_ be a `resonance
AG> in others' _if_ they are elected.
Okay, spud, I'll byte, how do I get elected ?
BTW, I am still waiting for you to explain why you think I am a
Jewish lawyer (remember the Zundel thing?)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Paul Churchill
|To: Ted Hollingshead
|Sub: Re: Conference
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:43:02
EID:2add 20844d60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163e00f
-=> Quoting Ted Hollingshead to All <=-
TH> Is this a religion conference or a chat conference?
Its a freak show!
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 04 Apr 96 07:27:28
EID:1db2 20843b60
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 db225bbc
REPLY: 1:207/212 68344f32
On (01 Apr 96) Karen Davis wrote to Jerry Gilbreath...
KD> What about the dietary requirements of the animals while on
KD> the ark and afterwards?
We've already had a fundy clear this one up for us. He was a
farm boy as a kid, and he figured out all by himself that Noah
used the shit that was generated by the various animals to grow
a nice little crop (of gawd knows what) that would feed the
animals until they again had dry land available.
Oh, yeah. Gawd turned all the carnivores into vegetarians for
the duration. Handy. Huh?
... "Creation Science" aint.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: children
|Date: 06 Apr 96 14:04:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b08
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895543CC
PID: FM 2.02
FR> A far better moral and ethical ideal would be to treat
FR> others as they like to be treated. Try that.
mh> Please practice your superior ethic -- treat me as I
mh> would like to be treated, per the above description.
I am. And you know it. You wouldn't be here if it weren't true,
By the way: Your truth filter isn't working.
~*~ God loves you. He can free you from the horrible temptations of your
social disorder. - Johnny Mckinney (Talking about homosexuality)
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: John Oliver
|Sub: HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison
|Date: 03 Apr 96 10:47:00
EID:2e6e 208355e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163f87f
A lone voice in the wilderness, John mournfully howled out "HolySmoke Pick
Yer Poison"
JO> I haven't yet dated any lawyers, but I am willing to try! Beside's
JO> sleeping with lawyers one has the chance of being screwed, and kissed
JO> at the same time, something one doesn't get in the office! He,he,hee.
ROFL! Can't argue with that logic, I suppose. :)
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... "You know what I like about England? It ain't France!" -- Leary
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: John Oliver
|Sub: HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison
|Date: 03 Apr 96 10:49:01
EID:2e6e 20835620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163f880
A lone voice in the wilderness, John mournfully howled out "HolySmoke Pick
Yer Poison"
JO> ! Origin: [ Pink Triangle ] Silence = Death /\ (519)-255-7228
JO> (1:246/148)
Just noticed your origin line - did you open your own board? (My
nodelist is a bit dated, and I haven't figured out how to handle
the nodediff files /15 keeps sending me.)
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... "It's got your picture on it." "That's the RCMP musical ride .."
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Ducks?
|Date: 03 Apr 96 10:52:02
EID:3ede 20835680
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163f881
A lone voice in the wilderness, Don mournfully howled out "Ducks?"
SA> it. Then the big cheese would come and stand closest to the car
SA> while I got more ready to toss out. Why they'd start deferring to
SA> pigeons, though, is a mystery.
DM> You will pardon my cynicism, but the first thing that went
Isn't cynical; I simply had no answer for the phenomenon, and your
suggestion is, at least, realistic.
DM> through my mind when I read it was that somebody tossed out some
DM> poison food, and the gulls now wait to eat the surviving pigeons
DM> later. Gulls are too well armed, too much larger, and too aggressive
DM> to defer to pigeons without some sort of external intervention in
DM> play.
That's a good possiblity, however horrible it is to think that
someone actually tried to poison the city's birds. On Evolution,
when I brought this up, someone suggested it might be simply
because the gulls were young; however, it hadn't happened before
at the same time of the year, nor are all the birds yearlings.
DM> Later, you say to Fredric Rice, RE Tammy Faye:
SA> Her co-host is quite overtly homosexual.
SA> Looks like her "ideals" flew out the window as soon as the rent
SA> was due, considering that the Bakkers were amongst the
SA> "hummasixual" bashing crowd in their heyday.
DM> Perhaps Jim got outed whilst in.
Forcibly, perhaps.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... "All good cartoonists are jackleg preachers." - Bill Mauldin
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 10:39:03
EID:ba49 208454e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163f882
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "A FAIR & JUST
GOD"
AS> along the way. Tolkien originally was going to make Elrond/Strider a
AS> hobbit rather than a Man. Treebeard, the Ent, was originally intended
SA> [SMACK!] Elrond was a full Elf. Strider was Aragorn, son of
SA> Arathorn, a Man.
AS> Ouch! Nice right hook. Well, yes, I goofed. I meant to write
AS> Aragorn/Strider. But you goofed too. Earendil, a man, was Elrond's
AS> father, as I remember. Elrond and his brother were given their
AS> choice of which of the Kindreds to be. Elrod chose to be Elf, and his
AS> brother chose to be a man, and was I believe Aragorn's remote
AS> ancestor. (My LANGUAGES OF MIDDLE EARTH, which had the family trees
AS> done so nicely, is now so much kindling, and I feel lazy enough not
AS> to look it up in LOTR).
Doh. That's what I get for just going on the one book. :)
Someone suggested that more info is available in the Silmarillion,
but I don't have a copy of it yet.
I did, however, get the faint impression that Aragorn himself
might have had some Elf ancestry ...
SA> I've run into evil walking trees before. (Yes, while playing AD&D.
SA> Where else?) They don't seem to like flaming flasks of oil much.
AS> I notice in that list of D&D stuff you sent George Mooth you
AS> included Larry Niven's Sunflower plants, as well.
Wasn't my textfile; it was just a sourcefile I picked up from a
local RPG source material oriented BBS. I've got a nice speech by
Steve Jackson on game design, as well. I've been downloading
a lot of textfiles from there lately - good thing I've got no
ratio. :)
SA> Of course, truth to tell, I'm in the process of reading it myself
SA> - hadn't read any of that since I was a kid, but as I've gotten
AS> Then forget what I said about Elrond being half-Man. That is a minor
AS> detail that you probably wouldn't remember.
Hm. I'm still unsure; I thought the Elves of Rivendell were all
High Elves.
SA> back into gaming a few months ago, I thought it might be helpful,
SA> at least insofar as xD&D and MERP is concerned. Next I'll likely
SA> be reading another book I picked up over a year ago and haven't
SA> gotten to yet - "Werewolves of London", by Brian Stableford ..
SA> mainly because a local user is selling me his 1st edition
SA> Werewolf: The Apocalypse sourcebook next week, and now that we
SA> ave a free day (one of our weekend GMs flaked out) I'm thinking
SA> of running some sort of campaign or another of my own. This
SA> should be interesting, considering I've never run one before.
AS> Read "Three Hearts and Three Lions" by Poul Anderson.
Hm. OK; Anderson's stuff is fairly easy to find. However, I won't
be running xD&D - I find it too .. limited for my tastes. I don't
mind playing it, but I feel much too restricted, character-wise,
by its limited selection of races and handful of classes. Also,
it lends itself too much to the urge to run a hack&slash game, of
which I've grown quite tired. The fellow who's running the
present game has been good at avoiding that pitfall so far, but at
essence it is (especially 2nd edition AD&D) a power-gamer's game.
I'll likely run the one that I'm in the process of designing, or
White Wolf's "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" once I get the book. I've
played - briefly - WW's "Vampire: The Masquerade" and, though I
strongly dislike the vampire concept, I did like its more earthly and
closer-to-real world-setting. (For anyone who might have
wondered, that new series "Kindred: The Embraced" is a DIRECT
take-off of V:tM. The first tip-off was the title; it uses
terminology taken directly from the game. I watched the premiere
last night, and sure enough - I was able to tag each vampire with
the correct clan before it was mentioned. Though they are missing
two - Malkavians and the Tremere. Malkavians are generally all
insane, and the Tremere are occultists, which probably explains
their absence from television. My main interest lies in whether
or not they'll cross-fertilise from W:tA - all of WW's games are
interconnected, and werewolves are the sworn enemy of vampires, and
indeed of anything "of the Wyrm", an evil force that mocks, destroys,
and pollutes nature with its action and presence. Except for the
Black Spiral Dancers, a clan of werewolves that are akin to an
anti-paladin. They don't like anybody very much, and are considered
"evil" werewolves. They're QUITE nasty.)
SA> One thing about gaming though - you do get to learn about
SA> interesting obscure weaponry. One of the weapons I could have had
SA> for my cleric character was a mace with holy water in it - you
SA> bash someone across the head and sprinkle them with the stuff
SA> through holes at the same time. Turns out this was a REAL weapon,
SA> invented by some monk or another during the Crusades. It was
SA> tempting, but I went with a magical +3 staff/flail instead. :)
AS> You'll be sorry, when you encounter a vampire...
Why? I'm a 9th level cleric with Turn Undead ability and up to
one 5th level spell. :) Vampires? Pshaw.
The only problem is, we're playing in Waterdeep - 2 weeks before
all the gods are scheduled to fall to earth, thereby screwing all
the clerics over for any spells higher than 3rd level (unless the
god worshipped happens to be within a certain radius of the
cleric.) Worse, we're playing 1st edition rules, and the
Undermountain module is sort of a transition between 1st and 2nd
edition rules (hence the gods falling bit) - and the god my cleric
serves (Ilmater, protector of the tortured and suffering) isn't
included in the 2nd edition pantheon, indicating he was killed
in the interim. :P
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... At Hydrogen 2 and Oxygen one, game called because of rain.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:16:04
EID:ba49 20836a00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163f883
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "A FAIR & JUST
GOD"
AS> They did it anyway. As the resultant world is made, death is a
AS> necessity. And another world is promised to come, eventually; it seems
AS> to have been both like and unlike the original world. Adam and Eve
AS> were encouraged to "be fruitful and multiply" before the Fall." Yet
AS> Jesus explicitedly says there will be no marriage in Heaven, and, one
AS> assumes, no procreation. That doesn't mean we will necessarily be
AS> sexless...just that the ecstacy of more direct contact with God will
AS> make sex pale in comparison. Maybe God is forestalling any sort of
AS> "end of the world" scenario to allow the maximum number to be saved
AS> who are going to be. I have certainly argued within the parameters
AS> we have now, that death is necessary. The only way I think it could
be
AS> avoided is if He personally took charge of most natural
AS> actions...which I think would result in a tyranny absolute, especially
AS> in growing minds. But if one has experienced it and chosen the good
of
AS> its own accord, the lesson is learned and not needed to be repeated.
Of course, you realise the problem with this argument - any world
that enables creatures to "fruitfully multiply" does require
death, even if they don't eat - the world would simply eventually
get much too crowded for anyone to even stand. At the other side
of the coin, death necessitates reproduction - for if mortal
creatures do not reproduce, they will go extinct within one
generation. Reproduction and death are therefore intertwined and
inseperable; the story of Genesis, which allows reproduction but
not death, is untenable on that foundation alone.
Of course, a real fundy could just say that the "excess
population" (whatever that is) would just be "removed" by YHWH to
somewhere else. But given the entire theology of Christianity,
this is what death is supposed to be like, anyway - at the very
least, the result is the same (those left behind are bereft at the
loss of their friends and family and console themselves by saying
"Well, they're in a better place now.")
Quite simply, in a world in which Genesis is correct and the
mythical Fall never happened, a point of stasis would have to be
reached eventually, because the inhabitants of that world would
have reproduced like mad, with no one dying (or being removed) to
make room for newcomers. Whatever point that might have been
doesn't matter, but for all time thereafter, there would be --
could be -- no change. Reproduction must stop, since there is no
death.
Of course, this leaves open the question as to how these creatures
would derive energy, since plants ARE alive, contrary to the
beliefs of ancient Hebrews, but I suppose one can assume for the
moment that all these creatures were autotrophic.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore".
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Lycanthrope
|Date: 03 Apr 96 18:11:05
EID:1f33 20839160
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3163f884
A lone voice in the wilderness, George mournfully howled out "Our Daily
Bread"
GM> I would be quiet, Lord, and rest content,
GM> I know my needs will all be met;
GM> With You to guide and care, my joy is this:
GM> Not one small need will You forget!
GM> -Henry G. Bosch
Beware the days of the year, little man,
When the moon hath a face like a silver crown;
Cleave if thou may'st to the home of thy clan,
And hide from the werewolves of London Town.
Beware of the coverts and courts, little maid,
Where walks the man with the coat of brown;
Though thou art abandoned, be not waylaid,
By the hungry werewolves of London Town.
Beware the starlit nights, my child,
And the pretty lady in the sleek white gown;
Though thou art forsaken, be not beguiled,
By the charming werewolves of London Town.
--Traditional
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... The greatest danger may be at the heart of the greatest beauty - Lo
Si
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: More Bible Errors
|Date: 02 Apr 96 21:16:00
EID:4242 2082aa00
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2e950cc2
REPLY: 1:215/130 0005525e
PID: FM 2.02
> Joshua 19:2-6 reports Simeon as inheriting "13" cities (and their
> villages) and names them - all 14.
> Apparently Joshua can't count since he does the same thing in naming the
> "14" cities of the lowland Judah - and lists 15. (Joshua 15:33-36)
Joshua used a Pentium!! :-)
> Isaiah 17:1 prophesied that Damascus "is about to be removed as a city,
> and it will become a fallen ruin." Today, as one of the oldest cities
in
> the world, Damascus is the ONLY city in Palestine that has never been
> destroyed.
ÛÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛ
Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û ÛÛÛÛÛÛ Û Û Û Û ÛÛ
ÛÛÛÛÛ Û Û Û ÛÛÛ Û Û ÛÛ Û ÛÛÛÛÛ Û Û ÛÛ
Û ÛÛ Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û
ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛ
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: [2/2] YOUR DAILY MURD
|Date: 02 Apr 96 21:40:01
EID:1130 2082ad00
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2e950cc3
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 649cc456
PID: FM 2.02
> On Mar 30 16:06 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
> DW> Are you committing murder by not fertilizing every egg your
> DW> wife releases?
> Yes, but your wife is committing genocide by not producing an
> egg for every sperm you produce.
> (And then there are test-tube babies which are raised in TANKS!)
Raised in what, did you say??
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ANIMAL ABORTIONS
|Date: 04 Apr 96 13:12:02
EID:37cc 20846980
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2f8cf256
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
> JG> then you are a female. Is that sexism ? or just pointing out a trait
> JG> common to the disrespectful females of the human species.
> I wonder if David would mind very much if we let him wait for his pie
> and
> sent it to Jim instead?
> Oh yes, and I just found this great recipe for a bran fiber crust.
I can get black walnut sawdust, I believe..... :-)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Peter Trussell
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose On
|Date: 01 Apr 96 01:13:27
EID:d58d 208109a0
PID: OLMS 2 [Evaluation]
MSGID: 1:324/127.0 9450da36
TID: GE 1.11+
> RM> Looks to me like this court has just decided that atheism is
> RM> a religion.
>
> DC> No more so than the Constitution is a document that requires
>
> MB> His problem is he doesn't understand the Null position.
>
> Thanks for your unsolicited analysis of my problems, but, I
> understand the null position quite well, thanks. I won't return the
> favour by attempting to guess what your problem might be.
perhaps it would make sense to define religion as a set of beliefs of
how and why am I here and where am I going. Theism as the set of
beliefs that we came by some deity or deities. Atheism is the belief
that we didnt come from any gods. Therefore anyone that has some sort
of belief of why and how they are here based on faith of scripture or
belief of scientific principle has a religion.
There could be some bad points with this broad definition, could I
claim tax emptions for my religion. But seriously if the definition
of religion means that one "has" to be a thiest or one "has" to be a
member of a organized philosophical group before one can take privlages
such as the Boy Scouts or better yet rights as defined in the US
Constitution or similar language in the constitutions of the individual
states then MY power as a citizen along with possibly many others would
be severly limited.
I think the descion came along the lines of getting women into the
"Citiadel" A military school that was partially funded by
government sources that excluded women. I think that the current
thinking in the courts is that they do not want even the appearance
that the government by law or by finance is supporting discrimination ie
the slippery slope arguement. Today the BSA, tommorow the schools next
week the new world order.
To sum up this rambling, what would be the power shift based on the
question of the BSA. The BSA could accept the members or find
alternative funding;easily done and they could easliy keep thier
beliefs. The athiests on the other hand could forget about the boy
scouts or convert to the groups accepted beliefs. Also this could be
paranoia but some other groups especially employers saying "you let the
boy scouts do it why cant we?". Then what? What if a governer of a
state uses the same conclusion? What if Pres Bush really made athiest
2nd class citizens? What is the greater cost money or freedom?
---
þ KWQ/2 1.2i þ "Bother," said Pooh, as the Daleks exterminated him.
___ Olms 2.0 [Evaluation]
---
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|From: Peter Trussell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 01 Apr 96 01:13:27
EID:3202 208109a0
PID: OLMS 2 [Evaluation]
MSGID: 1:324/127.0 9450da37
TID: GE 1.11+
> Indeed, though I have heard a rumor (I've got lots of 'em) that
> they were removed from the A-10 'hogs following Desert Storm because
> the cleanup crews were getting radiation poisoning from the shells.
> Seems that they use depleted uranium (that's DU in military
> shorthand) for the shells and they weren't fully, ah, depleted. I've
> heard that the same problem holds true for the M1A1 Abrams, which
> uses *armor* made out of the stuff and is perpetually emitting about
> 57 rads.
Wasnt the problem that the shells fragmented and the soldiers were
breathing that stuff in. Speaking of fun with atomics Mr Leipzig have
you been to "atomic lake" the place somewhere in the former soviet
union where they did "landscaping" with atomic weapons? Do you know if
anything is being done about it to clean it up?
---
þ KWQ/2 1.2i þ "Bother," said Pooh, as the Daleks exterminated him.
___ Olms 2.0 [Evaluation]
---
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Evil locution.
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:59:00
EID:71c6 20844760
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543BF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Which is what you'd expect if they were specially created and have
MH> varied only within kind.
ML> Define, in a biologically, zoologically and taxonomically valid
ML> manner the term "kind"; then we can commence with your
ML> immolation.
MH> As I told the other Martin,
ML> He's the Amrtin, I'm the Marty.
ML> Nkow the difference.
Srory baout htat.
MH> (As opposed to being a heretical
MH> Creationist with a Ph.D. in genetics from Perude, e.g. Dr. Lane
MH> Lester.)
ML> As I said. (BTW, Is "Perude" anywhere near Purdue?)
Maybe it's where Amrtin went to school. :)
But see, that's part of the point. There are Creationists who hold
doctorates from mainstream schools, even Ivy League schools. Lester is
just one of several that I know about. Since these are people who
obviously understand the science involved, why not give their views a
fair hearing?
MH> 3. I am NOT necessarily a Creationist, whether young-age or old-age.
MH> I am simply exploring the various issues associated with the question.
ML> If so (and I will, until demonstrated later), accept this
ML> (I know, you're so relieved...). But, can you examine the
ML> "other side of the fence" without your preconceived religious
ML> notions? To carry that ecumenical baggage into the fray not
ML> only weighs you down, but serve no useful purpose in the realm
ML> of science.
ML> Leave the supernatural to religion. Examine science under the
ML> cold light of unbelieving and ever questioning reason and the
ML> rigors of logic.
ML> You may well be very surprised at what you find.
And you do the same. What I have found in the past couple of years is
that the prevailing scientific commitment to naturalistic philosophy
places arbitrary -- and unjustified, IMO -- limits on what scientists
may consider possible. It perpetuates its own orthodoxy, in which
scientists who dissent from the mainstream view are dismissed as
unscientific -- heretical, if you will. (Or even if you won't.)
"(T)he leaders of science see themselves as locked in a desperate
battle against religious fundamentalists, a label which they tend to
apply broadly to anyone who believes a Creator plays an active role in
worldly affairs. These fundamentalists are seen as a threat to liberal
freedom, and especially as a threat to public support for scientific
research. As the creation myth of scientific naturalism, Darwinism
plays an indispensable ideological role in the war against
fundamentalism. For that reason, the scientific organizations are
devoted to protecting Darwinism rather than testing it, and the rules
of scientific investigation have been shaped to help them succeed.
"If the purpose of Darwinism is to persuade the public to believe that
there is no purposeful intelligence that transcends the natural world,
then this purpose implies two important limitations upon scientific
inquiry. First, scientists may not consider all the possibilities, but
must restrict themselves to those which are consistent with a strict
philosophical naturalism. For example, they may not study genetic
information on the assumption that it may be the product of intelligent
communication. Second, scientists may not falsify an element of
Darwinism, such as the creative power of natural selection, until and
unless they can provide an acceptable substitute. This rule is
necessary because advocates of naturalism must at all times have a
complete theory at their disposal to prevent any rival philosophy from
establishing a foothold."
-- Philip Johnson, "Darwin On Trial," pp. 153-154 (hardcover edition)
... First a Swede, reincarnated as a Norweigian: Yep, I'm Bjorn again.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Evilotion
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:02:00
EID:dfc6 20844840
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> because you are (1) a scientist,
ML> Don't forget unrepentant atheist, as well.
MH> and (2) a scientist who
MH> accepts the scientific orthodoxy.
ML> No, I am a scientist who accepts reason, logic and reality over
ML> superstition, illogic and appellations to authority.
ML> Know the difference.
Please offer your scientist's response to this accusation:
"If Darwinists wanted to adopt (Karl) Popper's standards for scientific
inquiry, they would have to define the common ancestry thesis as an
empirical hypothesis rather than as a logical consequence of the fact
of relationship. The pattern of biological relationships -- including
the universal genetic code -- does imply an element of commonality,
which means only that it is unlikely that life evolved by chance on
many different occasions. Relationships may come from common ancestors,
or from predecessors which were transformed by some means other than
the accumulation of small differences, or from some process altogether
beyond the ken of our science. Common ancestry is a hypothesis, not a
fact, no matter how strongly it appeals to a materialist's common
sense. As a hypothesis it deserves our most respectful attention, which
in Popper's terms, means that we should test it rigorously.
"We would do that by predicting what we would expect to find if the
common ancestry hypothesis is true. Until now, Darwinists have looked
only for confirmation. The results demonstrate how right Popper was to
warn that 'Confirmations should count only if they are the result of
risky predictions.' If Darwin had made risky predictions about what the
fossil record would show after a century of exploration, he would not
have predicted that a single 'ancestral group' like the therapsids and
a mosaic like Archaeopteryx would be practically the only evidence for
macroevolution. Because Darwinists look only for confirmation, however,
these exceptions look to them like proof. Darwinists did not predict
the extreme regularity of molecular relationships that they now call
the molecular clock, but this phenomenon became 'just what evolutionary
theory would predict' -- AFTER the theory was substantially modified to
accomodate the new evidence."
-- Philip Johnson, "Darwin on Trial," pp. 152-153 (hardcover edition)
BTW, please don't respond with a simple ad hominem like "Johnson's
been debunked." That's a Plasmic tactic. If his argument is wrong,
please explain where, how and why it is wrong.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: A Fair & Just God-damned
|Date: 04 Apr 96 10:55:00
EID:5653 208456e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> I guess you could put it that way. I cannot make excusses for
LB> God, but all I know is that God said for us not to kill, and that is
LB> good enough for me.
ML> Gedankenexperiment #1: A psychopath has broken into your home,
ML> intent on stealing its tires. You catch him in the act. He
ML> grabs your wife/youngest child/etc. and threatens to kill
ML> her/him/it, immediately followed by zapping you; and he's
ML> quite obviously capable and unhinged enough to do this act.
ML> You have no other option but to kill him (which, in this little
ML> scenario, you have this capability), or you and your significant
ML> others will join the choir invisible.
ML> These are your two and only two options. No apologetics or
ML> waffling allowed.
MH> I guess that means "No fair appealing to the nuances of the original
MH> Hebrew."
ML> Absolutely. My gedankenexperiment was in English.
MH> Like pointing out that the word *ratsach* in the Ten
MH> Commandments almost always refers to murder, not killing in
MH> self-defense, the defense of others, in war, capital punishment or by
MH> accident.
ML> Even you would agree that the typical overtly religious person
ML> wouldn't know classical Hebrew from a monkey's bum. They've
ML> been taught "every jot and tittle" of the Bible in the KJV or
ML> NIV in English (at least, the vast majority of those in the
ML> States, Canada, Oz and other predominantly English speaking
ML> countries). Appealing to the original Hebrew is like expecting
ML> Joe and Jane Sixpack to understand the revolutionary French of
ML> Napoleonic Law.
Perhaps. However, the Old Testament was first written in ancient
Hebrew. Its real meaning is whatever the original Hebrew says. Various
English translations approximate the Hebrew, some better than others.
And your challenge here is the result of your not consulting some of
the better ones.
Your question seems to be based on the assumption that English Bibles
use the word "kill." The NIV translates the word "murder." So does the
NRSV. (Others may as well, those are the only two I checked.) According
to Hebrew/English concordances I referenced, the Hebrew word
*may* mean "kill" in a broad sense, but the preferred meaning is
specifically limited to murder.
So what we have is one translation (KJV) that is close, but not quite
on the mark, and at least two that are much better.
Rather than offering a sincere Bible-believer some kind of Scylla
and Charybdis, as you apparently intended to, you've only shown that
your own understanding is faulty.
... The more I chew on, the less I swallow.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Utopia? No! Mytopia!
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:14:00
EID:5139 208441c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Michael Hardy <=-
> While it is logically possible that true freedom
> could lead to a Utopia
> IF every single free being chose good over evil 100
> percent of the
> time, it is no less logically possible for free
> beings to choose evil
> and thus avert Utopia. Where Mackie goes wrong is in
> the assumption
> that because Utopia is a possible outcome, God --
> rather than the moral
> agents making the choices -- is responsible if it
> doesn't come about.
> By his own reasoning, though, it is apparent that a
> God who
> *guaranteed* Utopia could do so only by offering
> something less than
> true freedom.
AB> Why so? Isn't Utopia a logically possible world? Utopia is, you'll
AB> remember, a world in which everybody is completely free. Why is this
AB> not logically possible? And if it is, why didn't God choose that world
AB> to create?
MH> Just as I said ... it is logically possible for a free being to never
MH> commit evil. It is not, however, logically possible for a free being
MH> to never be ABLE to commit evil; that would not be freedom.
MH> God DID create a world in which Utopia -- by your definition -- is
MH> possible. It is we who have chosen not to make it Utopia.
ML> Hey, Mike. Do you know the etymology of the term "Utopia"?
ML> "ou" - not, "topos" - place. By your definition, God created
ML> somewhere that does not exist.
ML> With Sir Thomas More, in this case, you get much less.
And a third less calories than a regular topia.
But that's not my definition, it's Aaron Boyden's. And of course, he
was using the word to mean a place of perfect peace and harmony.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: CREATIONISM PROBLEMS- 1X1
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:17:00
EID:3677 20844220
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Michael Hardy <=-
BJ>>> Prehistoric man would be fictitious.
AG>> Indeed he _is_ ficticious.
BJ> How do you explain geological and archaelogical findings?
MH> Much of it has been rejected even by evolutionists.
ML> Reinterpretation does not equal rejection.
MH> For example, it
MH> was once thought that neanderthal man, cro-magnon man and modern man
MH> were distinct steps up the evolutionary chain. Now evolutionists admit
MH> that all three are fully human.
ML> Albeit, the old man of Neander is a subspecies of old _Homo
ML> sap._.
MH> Other alleged transitional forms have also been debunked. Many of
MH> them were reconstructed on scanty evidence to start with. Java man,
MH> pithecanthropus erectus), for example, was reconstructed based on a
MH> skull and femur -- which were later realized to have come from a
MH> gibbon and a human, respectively.
ML> Indeed. Science found it's mistake and spontaneously
ML> self-corrected. Amazing that Gish and the other fish-wishers of
ML> the ICR cannot be accused of the same.
MH> Piltdown man, as everyone knows now, was a hoax -- yet evolutionists
MH> eagerly (and gullibly) greeted it as the necessary missing link to
MH> clinch their case, until the pranksters 'fessed up.
ML> Yep. That old mountebank charlatan churcher Teilhard de Chardin
ML> was quite a prankster; especially when it came to twitting the
ML> English.
ML> Such frauduosity from a magnate of the church. Heaven forbid!
MH> They also went
MH> wild over Hesperopithecus, reconstructed in the 1920s on the basis of
MH> a single tooth. When the complete skeleton was uncovered in 1927, it
MH> turned out to be that of a pig.
ML> Hold on there, buckaroo. Henry Fairfield Osborne recanted his
ML> mistake when addition dentary evidence became available
ML> (postcranial material from this site was NEVER found). Yet,
ML> science again corrected itself.
ML> Oh, BTW, here's a couple of molars from an extant member of the
ML> _Suidae_ and here's a couple from old _Homo sap._. $50 says you
ML> can't tell the two apart, much less assign them classification.
MH> Homo erectus is based on several incomplete skeletons, and nothing
MH> has been found which suggests homo erectus is really any different
MH> from modern man.
ML> Except for the lack of modern value cranial capacity,
ML> incomplete or incipient bipedalism, ad infinitum.
MH> Australopithecus has been debated vigorously among
MH> scientists,
ML> Goat-damn those scientists. Doing science! How dare they!?!
MH> yet there's nothing that really suggests it is anything
MH> more than a now-extinct ape.
ML> Why do you consider comparative anatomy, stratigraphy, zoology
ML> and genetics "nothing"?
MH> In short, the alleged ancestors of man are all either apes or people,
MH> with no distinguishing characteristics to set them apart. The only
MH> way to see them as transitional forms is to *believe* that they are.
ML> Bullshit. Even though we've only been around for a scant
ML> portion of geological time, the lineage of humans is one of the
ML> most documented facets of the fossil record. To deny the
ML> sciences of geology, anthropology, comparative anatomy,
ML> genetics, cladistics, and stratigraphy is to deny reality.
Hmmm. Now, you've been with me almost every step of the way in
admitting that various specimens once thought to be transitional are
now acknowledged to be fakes, mistakes or miscategorized, differing
perhaps only on Australopithecus. So just how is this lineage
documented?
... Winter weather brings post-nasal drip to city. Phlegm at eleven.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:09:00
EID:0b92 20844920
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Repentance is not a "good work", it is a condition for
RH> salvation.
MB> Repentence is a good work. It is, under Christian theology, the
MB> only good work that counts in the eyes of their god. If it isn't a
MB> work, just what the hell is it, anyway?
MB> You are DOING SOMETHING when you repent, aren't you?
"Remember, this repentance ... is not something God demands of you
before He will take you back and which he could let you off if He
chose; it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If
you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to
let you go back without going back. It cannot happen."
-- C.S. Lewis, "Mere Christianity"
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 10:57:00
EID:be7e 20845720
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Al Schroeder <=-
> EF> But it isn't an either/or proposition. For instance if your god kn
> EF> future he knows, prior to his creation of each human, whether that
> EF> will _FREELY_ choose to obey or not. It would in no way deny free
> EF> God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would choose si
> EF> simply creates only those people who he knows will _freely_ choose
> EF> religiously correct path.
>
EF> Note my use of the word "if" as in " ...if your god knows the
EF> future..."
EF> "Prunes the tree of probability?" Please. I said nothing of the kind.
EF> Once again. "IF" your god knows the future, then he knows - PRIOR TO
EF> HIS CREATING AN INDIVIDUAL - whether that person will sin. He need
EF> ONLY _not_ create that person - and all the others he knows will sin.
EF> God then only creates those he KNOWS beforehand will FREELY choose
not
EF> to sin. How does that abrogate free will?
AS>If one cannot choose to become bad and
EF> This has nothing to do with what I said. Under my scenario people CAN
EF> choose to become bad. But they have chosen - freely - not to. God
EF> supposedly knows who these individuals will be beforehand and creates
EF> only them.
I think the premise is faulty. As I understand it, God knows the future
only because he spans all of time and sees the future happen. That
means that events must happen in order for God to know they will
happen. That is, he knows what will happen on Dec. 13, 2013 because to
Him, that date is as much *now* as today is, as yesterday is, as
Jan. 5, 1021 is.
Imagine you can see a squiggly black line drawn on a piece of
paper. You can take a red pen and interweave another line so as to
create a pattern of intersections. Now imagine that I am the point of
the pencil drawing the black line. At any given moment, I can choose
which way to turn.
As I make my turns, I occasionally find myself intersecting a red
line. I see these points one at a time as I come to them, wheras
you can see the whole pattern.
That is what I imagine God's foreknowledge is like. You see where the
black line I'm drawing goes only because it actually goes there. You
don't see where it might otherwise have gone. At all times I have made
my choices freely. You have known what they would be, and occasionally
interacted with them, because you see the overall pattern, but your
knowing them has not influenced them.
All of this is speculative, of course. God has not seen fit to explain
to us just what he knows and what he doesn't know, and I doubt we could
comprehend it even if he did.
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: enforcement
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:24:00
EID:3926 20844b00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> WHO CARES WHO WROTE THEM ! The question is, are the concepts expressed
JG> as the "teachings of Jesus Christ" valid in their own right ? Do you
JG> agree with them on principle ? That is where the question of truth
JG> lies, NOT
JG> in who wrote the words, but in the concepts expressed in those words!
KD> No, because they rely on a God to enforce them.
KD> That makes the whole moral system invalid. A valid moral system must
KD> contain internal rewards, not the promise of something unevidenced.
That simply shows how poorly you understand the subject. The Christian
moral system is all about internal rewards. God does not invent moral
ideals and impose them arbitrarily. In Christian thought, God created
us in his image, meaning that our highest purpose is to mirror his
nature. But he also gave us the freedom to choose to not do that, a
choice we all make along the way.
The moral ideals are simply expressions of what fulfilling our internal
purpose entails -- love of God and of neighbor. God does not "enforce"
the standards, He created us to embody them. We separate ourselves from
Him by falling away. He takes the initiative to bring us back, through
Christ. We can either cross the bridge that He has built, or we can
choose to follow some other voice, away from our created purpose.
At all points, God does the work and we need but say yes. There is no
enforcing at all, only the logical consequences of our own decisions.
If we decide to reject God, then God honors that choice and does not
force you to change your mind. He does, however, prevent you from
experiencing the rewards of returning to Him. You can't call that
unfair, as it is your choice to not return.
... Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a C
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:32:00
EID:7e11 20844c00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Marilyn Burge <=-
EF> You've probably seen my other post to Mr. Rice by now as to why I say
EF> Hitler wasn't a Christian. However, let me expand upon it a little.
EF> In a message dated 03-31-96 Marilyn Burge wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> EF> True, with one exception: Hitler wasn't a Christian.
>
MB> He was a baptized Catholic who had the tacit approval of the Church
> in what he did.
EF> Baptized and RAISED Catholic, as were many top Nazis. On July 20, 1933
EF> the Nazi government signed a concordat with the Vatican, which
EF> guaranteed freedom of religion to the church. Yet less than a week
EF> later, the Nazis broke the agreement by passing a sterilization law.
EF> Five days later the Nazis took steps to dissolve the Catholic Youth
EF> League. Within a year the leader of Catholic Action was murdered by
EF> nazis (in the June 20, 1934 purge) and scores of Catholic publications
EF> were suppressed. Nazi agents even violated the sanctity of the
EF> confessional.
EF> On March 14, 1937 the Pope issued an encyclical, "With Burning
EF> Sorrow." In it he blasted the Nazi regime charging it with "evasion"
EF> and "violation" of the concordat. The Nazis, he said, spread "the
EF> tares of suspicion, discord, hatred, calumny, of secret and
EF> fundamental hostility to Christ and His Church." The Pope said he saw
EF> on "the horizon of Germany the threatening storm clouds of destructive
EF> religious wars ... which have no other aim than ... of
EF> extermination."(1)
MB> Without that approval, he never would have gotten
> away with what he did.
EF> Well I don't know if I'd go that far. But as William Shirer says in
EF> his definitive book on Nazi Germany, "Coming as it did at a moment
EF> when the first excesses of the new regime in Germany had provoked
EF> world-wide revulsion, the concordat undoubtedly lent the Hitler
EF> government much badly needed prestige." (2)
MB>As much as it pains the Christians to admit
> it, he was a Christian, and was given pretty much full-rein by the
> Vatican.
EF> Like I said to Mr. Rice, I used to think Hitler Christian too. But as
EF> much as it pains me to admit, he surely wasn't. For instance, the Nazi
EF> Minister for Church affairs, Dr. Hans Kerrl, said on 2/13/37: "The
EF> party stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and Positive
EF> Christianity IS National Socialism ...National Socialism is the doing
EF> of God's will. Dr. Zoellner and Count Galen [Catholic bishop of
EF> Muenster] have tried to make clear to me that Christianity consists
in
EF> faith in Christ as the Son of God. That makes me laugh... No,
EF> Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostle's Creed ... True
EF> Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are
EF> now called by the party and especially by the Fuehrer to a real
EF> Christianity ... The Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation." (3)
EF> But the smoking gun is the 30 point program for the National Reich
EF> Church. Examples:
EF> 1. The national Reich Church of Germany categorically claims the
EF> exclusive right and the exclusive power to control all churches within
EF> the borders of the Reich: it declares these to be national churches
of
EF> the German Reich.
EF> 13. The National Reich Church demands immediate cessation of the
EF> publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany ...
EF> 14. The National Reich Church declares that to it, and therefore to
EF> the German nation, it has been decided that the Fuehrer's Mein Kampf
EF> is the greatest of all documents...
EF> 18. The National Church will clear away from its altars all
EF> crucifixes, bibles, and pictures of saints.
EF> 19. On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf (to the German
EF> nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of
EF> the altar a sword.
EF> etc (4)
EF> (1) Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York:
EF> Touchstone, 1959. p.235
EF> (2) Ibid. p. 234
EF> (3) Ibid p. 239
EF> (4) Ibid p. 240
EF> Note: all above ellipses were contained in the source and as I found
EF> them.
EF> Ciao.
I've had this same argument several times with Rice and Burge. It's
refreshing to find an atheist honest enough to not seize on the "Hitler
was a Christian" argument.
I cited the same authorities and arguments you have, including Hitler's
30-Point plan. It'll be interesting to see if you can make more of an
impression on Burge and Rice than I did.
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:35:00
EID:c027 20844c60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
Once again, Al ... please forward.
MB> Once again, you've made my point for me. He sees it as a question
MB> of seeing things his way, or else you're wrong. That IS my
MB> definition of a fundy. According to his definition, Lynda is a
MB> heretic, as is Spong, whether he uses that word or not. And,
MB> rather than see me go half way and accept Spong's view, he'd
MB> rather be "right," even though the act of making me "wrong" has
MB> forever condemned me to eternal...whatever. Nice, Christian
MB> fellow-traveler you've got there, Al. It never occurs to him that
MB> it might be Spong who is "right" and he who is wrong, and that
MB> he's put a roadblock in my path that makes HIM responsible for my
MB> trip to perdition. No room for HIS error. No room at all. He's a
MB> fundy, Al, pure and simple.
What Marilyn fails to understand is that I DID explore the issue of
whether Spong might be right. But I did it several years ago, and
concluded that he is not.
Again, she interprets my disagreement with her as my dogmatism. She
never bothered to ask me why I disagreed with Spong, what reason I
might have for doing so. She simply pronounced me "fundy." The fact
that I've read several of Spong's books and articles, and examined them
critically, is irrelevant to her. Being intelligent and open-minded, in
Marilyn's view, means kowtowing to Marilyn.
And I'm supposedly the closed-minded one. Hmph.
... Behaviorial Research: Pulling habits out of rats.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:41:00
EID:8186 20844d20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543C9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Barnett to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> DC> MB> Factual. Thats what I belive in.
DC> DC>Then, Mark, do provide the evidence that supports that global
DC> DC>flood. You do have some, don't you?
DC> MB> No I have no evidence other than the Bible.
DC>Seems like your bible is missing something, like corroborating
DC>evidence.
MB> Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
MB> science is theory.
Dan's statement is flat wrong, anyway. While there is not corroborating
evidence for everything in the Bible, there is a considerable amount
for much of it.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ANGELS OR DEMONS???
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:43:00
EID:c274 20844d60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543CA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> So who _IS_ related to Adam?
JB> Even if Eve fucked every male animal in creation and produced 60
JB> gazillion offspring by them, they would ALL still be related to Adam
JB> unless the story of Eve's creation was a crock. Eve...Adam's rib. Same
JB> genetic material with a little tweaking of the x/y pairing.
Why do you assume that a God who could create life couldn't also adjust
the genetic code as necessary? Perhaps in creating Eve from Adam's rib,
He also gave her sufficiently divergent genes.
Why not? :)
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: childish ignorance
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:48:00
EID:5ce6 20844e00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543CB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Norbert Sykes <=-
NS> ... Deuteronomy 14:21: YHVH says to sell spoiled meat to
NS> foreigners.
SA> Whee. Remind me to pack some rations if I ever go visiting a
SA> bible-believin' country.
But of course, it really doesn't say that. It doesn't refer to spoiled
meat per se, but to animals found dead. Obviously, an animal found
freshly dead may still have good meat.
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: children
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:49:00
EID:960b 20844e20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543CC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> A far better moral and ethical ideal would be to treat others as
FR> they like to be treated. Try that.
I would like for you to call me "Master of the Realm" each time you
address me, and send me a check for $10,000 once each month.
Please practice your superior ethic -- treat me as I would like to be
treated, per the above description.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Come Together
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:54:00
EID:2ef1 20844ec0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543CD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Norbert Sykes <=-
SA> [BTW, upon reading the lyrics - is it just me, or does the line
SA> "Come together, right now, over me" sound somewhat kinky, if not
SA> outright disgusting?]
It's unnatural. No normal person can climax on demand. Take out the
"right now," part, though, and it's OK. ;-)
Seriously, that whole song is weird, but the weirdest line in my
opinion is "Hold you in his armchair, you can feel his disease."
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: evidence...
|Date: 04 Apr 96 10:03:00
EID:dfbd 20845060
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543CE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Gerry Wagoner <=-
GW> moving the great rock layers into the position they now occpy. The
GW> Bible says "and the fountains of the deep were broken up."UP. Yes
GW> indeed.
ML> Sure. The Bible also says that bats are birds and pi=3. So much
ML> for that book as a science reference work.
Not only do the new atheists have the same old arguments, so do
the old atheists. :)
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Flood Impossibilities.
|Date: 04 Apr 96 10:06:00
EID:3a47 208450c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543CF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to All (and Gerry Wagoner) <=-
ML> It is quite clear that a Biblical Flood is and was quite
ML> impossible. Only fools and those shackled by dogma would
ML> insist otherwise.
It is, IF you insist that it must have been possible by NATURAL means.
This is the whole problem with your assumptions, Marty. The whole
premise of Judeo-Christian religion is that a God exists who can
accomplish things which are not possible through natural means.
All of your arguments are correct (so far as I know) if we limit
the possibilities to what's possible though natural processes. But
theists accept no such limitation.
I'm not saying a global flood occurred; I am saying arguing against it
based on naturalism is unproductive. According to Genesis, the flood
was not part of the natural order, but a supernatural action undertaken
by God.
It comes back to basic philosophical assumptions. You say a global
flood couldn't happen without miraculous intervention. (That is, it
couldn't happen naturally.) Flood-believers would agree with you.
The question then becomes, is such a miraculous intervention possible?
And that's a question you can't come close to answering with talk of
water volume and so forth.
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: moider
|Date: 04 Apr 96 11:06:00
EID:aa46 208458c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to John Brawley <=-
EF> Ah, sorry John. The Hebrew word used in the 6th Commandment for kill
EF> -"ratsach"- is also used elsewhere to mean something other than
EF> murder. Numbers 35:27 shows that the word can mean justified killing:
EF> "If the revenger of blood kill [ratsach] the slayer he shall not be
EF> guilty of blood." The word was also used to denote capital punishment
EF> (Numbers 35:30-31) and even for killing by animals (Proverbs 22:13).
EF> Nor would it make sense if it did mean murder. Murder is to kill
EF> unlawfully, maliciously, or premeditatedly. But the Ten Commandments
EF> supposedly _are_ the law. To say the commandment means "murder" would
EF> be saying "it is unlawful to kill unlawfully" - tautological.
Hmm. Then are our civil laws making murder illegal similarly
tautological?
It seems, instead, that murder means to intentionally (or negligently)
kill another person for reasons other than defense of self or others. A
law forbidding it, then, is not tautological at all.
As for the Hebrew word, Strong's Concordance says that it can mean to
kill, in a broad sense, but "murder" is the preferred definition.
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: All
|Sub: detwitting twits
|Date: 04 Apr 96 11:20:48
EID:e675 20845a80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
I had resisted creating a twit filter for two years, because I felt
that I should do my own filtering. I finally twitted a few people,
because their posts to me were consistently pointless.
However, after a few weeks, I've decided that I preferred it the old
way. I've turned off the twit filters, and will return to doing my own
filtering.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:45:00
EID:2213 208495a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
JS> P.S. you don't.
MH> Jim, make up your mind. You're in, you're out, you're in, you're out,
MH> in, out, in, out ...
JS> Now, now Michael...don't start picking on me. I'm in. I took time out
JS> cause I needed to and now (seeing as Fred wouldn't let me leave) I am
JS> BACH! (just down here DE-composing...think about it)
Bach in a minuet. Try Handel. :)
Yeah, I know. I was incredibly busy for a couple of weeks, and I didn't
leave entirely, but I did have a lot less time and uploaded some puny
reply packets. This week I've been on vacation and had a chance to
catch up somewhat. Next week, the number of responses I send will
probably be down again.
As the French say, "That's life." (Only they say it in French.)
However, you did send an eloquent farewell to the echo a few weeks ago
...
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ALLEGORY 1/2
|Date: 04 Apr 96 22:29:00
EID:6e6c 2084b3a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> There is no point in "evolving toward belief" if it is a belief in
MH> error.
LB> No point. If it is not as you believe, it is in error and there is
LB> "no point". I see. Thank you for the confirmation.
See Lynda, here's a perfect illustration of my problem with your
approach. I have made an argumentative challenge -- that Marilyn, if
she is evolving toward belief based on Spong's work, is coming to
believe an error, and there is no point in that.
You could have chosen at least two productive routes for a
response.
(1) You could have defended the Spongian approach, taking the position
that it's not an error, defending your argument, and challenging me to
defend my argument that it is.
(2) You could have agreed with me that Spong is in error, but
challenged my assertion that there is no point in evolving toward that
sort of belief. You could have made a case that it's a step in the
right direction, and the error can be corrected later on.
Either of these would have started a discussion, which is what I'm
trying for. Instead, you write me off as dogmatic for daring to express
a firm opinion.
MH> And how is it "dogmatic," to use Marilyn's word, for me to defend
MH> what I believe to be true?
LB> From Websters II:
LB> Dogma. 1. a system of doctrines proclaimed true by a religious sect.
LB> 2. a principle, belief, idea, or opinion, esp. one authoritatively
LB> considered to be absolute truth.
LB> Dogmatic, 1. relating to or typical of dogma. 2. marked by an
LB> authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles.
LB> How is it NOT dogmatic, Michael?
Because I am willing to discuss and defend, if you would ever engage me
in a discussion. You think me dogmatic because (apparently) you think
anything I say is my final word on the matter. In reality, I'm trying
to be provocative for the sake of debate. You never figure that out,
though, because you never give me a chance.
MH> Why do non-Christians (and liberal Christians) get to defend their
MH> beliefs, but us more conservative types are "dogmatic" if we defend
MH> ours?
LB> Well, let's reason this out a bit, shall we? Many non-christians do
LB> not qualify according to definition #1 of dogma, as they are not
LB> members of a religious sect. As to liberal Christians, lack of
LB> dogmatism is what earns them the label of "liberal christian", so they
LB> don't really qualify for the word. Naturally, ANY belief or lack of
it
LB> can be considered dogmatic via the #2 definition of dogma -- but
LB> liberal christianity would not be one of them. Nor would an atheist
LB> who is willing to give someone with a different faith system (such as
LB> Spong) a considered look. If Marilyn was being "dogmatic" she'd have
LB> dismissed him for believing in God off the bat, and never gotten around
LB> to reading what he had to say.
And I also gave him a fair chance; I read three of his books to see
how he approached the subjects, how he reasoned his way to his
conclusions, and how well he supported those conclusions. I GAVE THE
MAN A CHANCE! But you can't see that. Noooooooo, even though I gave him
a fair chance, I ended up disagreeing with him, so I must be
"dogmatic."
It doesn't seem to occur to you that Spong might be wrong, or at
least that criticism of his methods and findings might be rooted in
intelligent reasoning. No, disagreement with liberal theology can only
be spawned by dogmatism, so far as you're concerned.
MH> I support my belief in the resurrection with reasons.
LB> Yes, Michael -- reasons why YOU believe. And if all you were doing
LB> were sharing your reasons to increase understanding of why YOU believe
LB> -- and giving the same respect to those sharing THEIR beliefs, then
LB> there would be no problem. But you DOGMATICALLY seem to think that YOUR
LB> reasons should be good enough for everyone, and that anyone who rejects
LB> your reasoning is simply WRONG. There is no give and take here -- you
LB> want to be all teacher, and allow no one to teach YOU.
Other people say I'm wrong in what I believe, and that apparently seems
fair and reasonable to you. Yet if I say you're wrong in what you
believe, I'm "dogmatic."
MH> There may be some who find my reasons to be
MH> less than compelling, but I am not simply demanding it's true because
MH> "the Bible says so."
LB> (amused smile) Really? Then on what basis DO you demand that Spong
is
LB> so wrong that there is "no point" in a nonbeliever willing to at least
LB> step as far as he is willing to?
On the basis that I'm trying to spark a debate about that very issue,
rather than on my personal demeanor and approach.
LB> The dating of texts? Is believing in the right age for the books now
LB> a point of salvation? Surely that is a side issue, and it is not such
LB> extra-biblical issues that render him "pointless" as a way toward God.
LB> So where IS he in error -- and remember NOT to include points where
LB> your only defense is that he is in disagreement with scripture.
I'll address this in the next post, since we're FINALLY getting to the
point I was trying to get to.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ALLEGORY 2/2
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:49:00
EID:6e9c 2084a620
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> (amused smile) Really? Then on what basis DO you demand that Spong
is
LB> so wrong that there is "no point" in a nonbeliever willing to at least
LB> step as far as he is willing to?
LB> The dating of texts? Is believing in the right age for the books now
LB> a point of salvation? Surely that is a side issue, and it is not such
LB> extra-biblical issues that render him "pointless" as a way toward God.
LB> So where IS he in error -- and remember NOT to include points where
LB> your only defense is that he is in disagreement with scripture.
No, the dating of texts is not a point of salvation. However, the
dating of the texts *is* important for building a case of their general
reliability -- as orthodox Christians have historically done -- or
their general unreliability as historical records, as Spong and other
liberal theologians do.
However, that is probably a secondary point with Spong, because he
approaches the gospels in a misguided way no matter what their date.
Now, I'm not sure where to begin critiquing Spong, because no specific
point has been raised. So for just one example, I'll cite his
insistence that the virgin birth stories in Matthew and Luke are
midrash.
Spong describes his understanding of midrash in "Born of a Woman," pp.
18-20. Essentially, he says, it was a method of reading Scripture
in which the rabbis would examine the stories minutely, looking for
hidden meanings. Spong takes the position that the Gospels, and
particularly the birth narratives, are midrash and should be taken
metaphorically. "The readers of the Gospels who understood this
midrashic method of probing Scripture would understand. Only to a
generation living hundreds of years later, separated from their Jewish
religious roots and clinging to a peculiarly Western mind-set, would
the choice appear to be between literal truth and overt lies."
In response, I quote Dr. Nicholas T. Wright, chaplain and theology
tutor at Worcester College, Oxford:
BEGIN QUOTE
Spong apparently does not know what "midrash" actually is. The "genre"
of writing to which he makes such confident appeal is nothing at all
like he says it is. There is such a thing as midrash; scholars have
been studying it, discussing it, and analysing it for years. Spong
seems to be unaware of the most basic results of this study. He has
grabbed the word out of the air. He misunderstands the method itself,
and uses this bent tool to make the gospels mean what he wants instead
of what they say.
[...]
We may briefly indicate the ways in which genuine midrash differs
drastically from anything we find in the gospels.
First, midrash proper consists of a commentary on an actual Biblical
text. It is not simply a fanciful retelling, but a careful discussion
in which the original text itself remains clearly in focus. It is
obvious that the gospels do not read in any way like this.
Second, real midrash is tightly controlled and argued. This is in
direct opposition to Spong's idea of it, according to which, "once you
enter the midrash tradition, the imagination is free to roam and
speculate." (p. 184) This statement tells a good deal about Spong's own
method of doing history, but nothing whatever about midrash.
Third, midrash never included the invention of stories which
were clearly seen as non-literal in intent, and merely designed to
evoke awe and wonder. It was no part of Jewish midrash, or any other
Jewish writing genre in the first century, to invent all kinds of new
episodes about recent history.
END QUOTE
From Wright's book "Who Was Jesus?" c. 1992, Eerdmans, with references
to works by Geza Vermes and a number of other Jewish midrash scholars.
I think Wright makes a pretty good case, and he bases it on solid
scholarship. But gee, that means I disagree with Spong, so I must
just be a dogmatic fundy -- no matter how good are my reasons for
disagreeing, right Lynda?
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: BIBLE
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:23:00
EID:083a 2084aae0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
BJ> Cause then you wouldn't have the pleasure of seeing them roast in
BJ> hell, you sick fuck.
MH> No one takes pleasure in the idea of hell, you sick fuck.
LB> There are plenty of archived examples from this echo alone to dispute
LB> that, MICHAEL. (I'm not going to engage in the name called -- but I
do
LB> find it interesting that you talk about "sin" and not two paragraphs
LB> later happily engage is a comment like that, just because someone else
LB> does. I going to put on my mommy hat here and say "If all the other
LB> kids jumped off a bridge, does that make it okay for YOU to follow?")
I was kind of thinking that throwing the same language back in Becke's
face would bring home how unnecessarily callous it is. The tactic
fizzled, though.
... Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: dogs
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:26:00
EID:ea49 2084ab40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Michael Hardy <=-
JH> Jesus calls the Canaanite woman a bitch:
JH>> MATTHEW
JH>>
JH>> 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord,
JH>> help me. 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to
JH>> take the children's bread, and cast [it] to dogs.
JH>> Don't claim the above is out of context, because it
JH>> plainly and simply aint. Jesus does change his mind in the
JH>> next verse, but his initial reaction to her plea was to
JH>> call her a dog (in a contemporary context this is
JH>> equivalent to calling her a bitch).
MH> From Matthew Henry's commentary on this passage:
MH> ==BEGIN QUOTE==
MH> Those whom Christ intends most to honour, he humbles to
MH> feel their own unworthiness.
JH> Remember that the next time someone here calls you a shitbag
JH> motherfucker. It's an honor.
You didn't pay attention.
MH> Those whom Christ intends most to honour, he humbles to
^^^^^^
Last I looked, you weren't Christ. :)
... Winter weather brings post-nasal drip to city. Phlegm at eleven.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:46:00
EID:be7e 2084adc0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Larry Bevard <=-
EF> You miss my point. A poor choice of words on my part perhaps. Let me
EF> re-phrase the above to say "It would in no way deny free will for
EF> your God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would * end
up
EF> in hell * and simply create only those people who he knows will
EF> _freely_ choose religiously correct path.
Wouldn't it, though? All of our choices are made based on a wide
variety of influences, which certainly includes the words and actions
of other people we encounter. If God erased all of those who choose
unwisely, then the dynamic shifts. Whatever influence those people may
have had is now gone, and other people's paths will be skewed. God will
then have to erase another crop, which have chosen differently than
they would have to begin with. There's no reason to assume this
progression will end until God has erased everyone.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:50:00
EID:7d12 2084ae40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> If they choose to do violence in self-defense, so be it, but
MB> they can call it the situational ethics it truly is, not the
MB> pacifism they have obviously turned their backs on. Words
MB> have meanings.
AS> Ahhh, I see. You think pacifism is an absolute, and there is no such
AS> thing as lesser or greater pacifism. Fair enough. Some people use it
AS> in a different way...like I'm more pacifistic than Patton but less so
AS> than Mahatma Gandhi. But if you hold it as an absolute, I'll not so
AS> misuse the term.
They're not Real True Pacifists.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: west
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:50:00
EID:dad6 2084ae40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543D9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Marilyn Burge <=-
AS> I'm not sure they would hold to that principle if they saw
AS> the consequences.
MB> This isn't the conference for it, but I think you're wrong.
MB> Switzerland REQUIRES ALL MALES to have a loaded machinegun
MB> in their homes at all times, yet they have the lowest crime
MB> rate of all the European nations. You are looking for simplistic
MB> answers to very complex problems. But, it appears to me that if
MB> criminals truly thought that ALL citizens were armed, they'd think
MB> twice about their behavior toward ANY of them. It is precisely
MB> because they know the odds are excellent that the person can be
MB> bullied that things have gotten as bad as they are.
NB> I tend to agree with the axiom that an armed society is a
MB> polite society.
AS> Could be. But was the West, now thoroughly glamorized, where every
AS> man could wear a pistol, so excessively polite?
Are you referring to the Mae West? "Is that a pistol in your pocket, or
... ?"
... Without the right to life, all other rights mean nothing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: alice cooper and gaiman
|Date: 04 Apr 96 22:00:00
EID:e1cc 2084b000
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895543DA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Norbert Sykes <=-
AS> I've recommended this to other people, but if you come across some
AS> of the trade paperback editions of a DC Comic called SANDMAN by Neil
AS> Gaiman, I heartily recommend them. An adult comic in the best sense
AS> of the word, it uses mythology, folklore, and imagination in a way
AS> quite literate.
Gaiman did a comic as a companion to Alice Cooper's album "The Last
Temptation." You wouldn't happen to have that or know where I could get
it, would you? As I understand it, it was a three-installment graphic
novel. It may or may not have been reissued in a single volume.
... If I ran the world, things would be a lot better. Well, for me anyway.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Watch Jesse Christ Jones
|Date: 05 Apr 96 15:42:11
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300f26f0
PID: FM 2.02
Hey, all!
Watch Jesse Christ Jones try to pretend that Easter has something to do
with his cult. A BUCK! says he'll try to pretend that the Fertility Goddess
has nothing to do with it.
~*~ Not all scientists are stupid. - Joanne Bergeron
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:40:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7afa
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 316477a3
PID: FM 2.02
> Did you ever wonder why Hal Lindsey was called the author of the decade,
> by the New York Times - an Establishment newspaper? The man is a
> Zionist stooge, and his job is to divide the Church (Catholics and
> Protestants).
Great! I'm all for it! Any time the various brand names of the Christanic
death cult can be broken up and divided further, GO FOR IT!
~*~ "I asked him 'Do you want a date?' And he said, 'All I want to do is
jack off awhile and look at your tits."
-- Debra Murphree quoteing Jimmy Swaggart
(Penthouse magazine, July 1988)
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Adolph Hitler Was a Christian. Get over it!
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:43:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7afb
PID: FM 2.02
jg> The way one tells a Christian is by his love for his fellow man .
FR> You're ignoring the foundation of the Christanic death cult as well
as
FR> the history of the death cult entirely. A Christian is known by their
FR> hatred and resentment of all that is good. A Christian is known by
FR> their justification of ANY tyranny by using their deity constructs.
A
FR> Christian is known by every single expression of evil that men can and
FR> will do.
Undeniably true.
FR> YOU joined the death cult knowing full well what it stands for. That
FR> makes YOU complicity to the evil. That means YOU agree with what the
FR> Christanic death cult has historically stood for as well as for what
it
FR> stands for in contemporary time.
jg> Excuse me but at no time have I ever joined a death cult.
Oh? You call yourself a Christian, don't you? If so, you joined the death
cult. (Next I fully expect you to demand that Christianity isn't anything
like its history.)
~*~ When you cannot use facts to demonstrate that something
is true, just label it "spiritual". - Sean McCullough
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Can any god play your game?
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:44:25
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7afc
PID: FM 2.02
JG> no intention of listening to God.
FR> Can any god play your game, Jim? You have no intention of listening
FR> to my god so can I murder you, kidnap and rape your children just like
FR> your god ordered?
jg> Of course you can do anything you want.
Here we see why your death cult has the bloody history that it does. You
and your willingness to slaughter innocent children surely makes your death
cult one of the most evil ideological constructs as yet devised by man.
Here's another truth about your death cult:
~*~ As for the road map, those roads are paved with the bodies of more
than one person who died not for your religion, but because of it.
- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims of deity constructs
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:45:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7afd
PID: FM 2.02
jg> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from.
FR> Trying to give your intellectual superiors deity constructs so that
FR> you don't appear so much the fool is pretty low, Jim, even for a
FR> Christanic death cultist. In actual fact physics deny the play pretend
FR> of deity constructs you try to advance and leaves you searching for
FR> where your deity constructs came from.
jg> You seem to be continually demanding physical
jg> proof of a non physical entity.
You're continually trying to demand that your mental constructs are somehow
concerned with your intellectual superiors. Until you present some evidencve
for your Alpha Male deity construct, do refrain from including your intellectual
superiors in your sodomite delusions.
Thanks in advance.
~*~ Just shut up and sit back down and ride the bus like the rest of us.
- Patrick Humphrey
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Jim Germiquet is ONE evil pig
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:47:58
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7afe
PID: FM 2.02
jg> And many men choose to twist what god
jg> is telling us to fit what they want to do.
FR> YOU are the evil bastard who's using your death cult deity constructs
FR> to justify inhumanity. YOU are the evil bastard who WILLINGLY joined
FR> the single most destructive cult to ever hack, chop, burn, slaughter,
FR> rape, torture, hang, drown over the entire face of the Earth.
jg> This sounds like the ranting of a person going through "denial".
Ah, yes. When the hurtful truth is rubbed into the cultist's face, wiggle
out from under by pretending that those who are so easilly debunking the
death cult for what it stands for as "in denial."
Denying what your death cult stands for merely allows people like you to
repeat it -- drive that body count up, Jim, and then demand that the innocent
people you raped and slaughtered were better off dead. Demanding that rape
and slaughter were "normal" entertainments enjoyed by your fellow death
cultists merely proves my point.
~*~ I had two margaritta's, and was eyeing the women like
a deer eyes oncoming headlights. - David Rice
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Or maybe just hatred
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:50:08
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7aff
PID: FM 2.02
JG> I certainly would not approve of legislation that deny's
jg> the civil rights of anyone.
FR> Then you're against the Focus on the Family cult. They were the cult
FR> that started Prop 2 in Colorado which denied individuals the right to
FR> legal redress when they're discriminated against simply because they're
FR> homosexuals.
Now I wonder why you didn't respond to this hurtful fact. Mysterious.
FR> Christianity is utterly evil. And so are you.
jg> You certainly are the most judegmental person I have come across
jg> in this echo so far. Or at least the most vocal :-)
Ah, yes. When faced with the hurtful truth the death cultist pretends to
wiggle out from under the embarrasing truth by glibly demanding that his
intellectual superiors of being "judgemental" so you can deny the truth,
Learn a little bit about your death cult, Jim. Then see if you can divest
yourself of the hatred. Before you can do so, however, you must learn that
you _have_ a problem. And yours is that you are, without a doubt, evil.
~*~ Why don't you just hang a sign around your neck that says "STUPID"?
- Styx Allum
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: History of lies
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:51:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b00
PID: FM 2.02
jg> Well I lost all my message replies <50+) due to a bad cluster.
FR> To judge by your dishonesty past, I suggest that you're lying.
jg> Well I am not, but people usually judge
jg> others by their own standards :-)
To judge by your history of lies and deception, I would suggest once again
that you're lying. Hell, you're such an evil death cultist that if you
were to claim that the Sun will appear to rise in the East, I would suggest
you're lying.
Lose the death cult, Jim. Lose the hatred.
~*~ The Gods and The Prophets sit so patiently waiting for
the bartender to pour the wine. - Peter Cassell Leon
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Very much mythology!
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:52:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b01
PID: FM 2.02
jg> Oh so now some guy who doesn't even believe in god
jg> is going to claim to be an expert on god.
FR> It is an undeniable fact that those who don't believe in fictional
FR> constructs have a much better understanding of the reasons why others
FR> believe in them. It is also an undeniable fact that the origins of your
FR> deity constructs and the evolution your deity constructs have gone
FR> through over the centuries are better understood by those who don't
FR> suffer under the delusions believers do.
jg> I am sorry Dr. Rice, I had no idea you were so knowledgeable in the
jg> area of Christianity and spirituality, even though you don't believe
jg> in them.
Which merely serves to prove my point. No one can learn the origins of
the classical Christanic mythologies and remain a believer in same.
~*~ Debate about this is irrelevant. - John Prewett (Thinks JFK will come
back to life and he, together will Henry Kissinger, will dominate the
world as an 'anti-christ.')
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Try reading some history
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:54:05
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b02
PID: FM 2.02
>>> And that is where you make your mistake sir. Jesus said "they will
>>> know you are christians by your love one for another".
FR> While ignoreing the rest of the bloody Christanic mythologies and the
FR> whole of world history. Adolf Hitler was no different than the
FR> thousands of tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him.
FR> The way one 'tells' a Christian is by their professed belief in the
FR> Christanic death cult.
bj> Where on earth did you get such information?
FR> Perhaps you should actually read the history of the Christianic death
FR> cult and stop trying to pretend that Christians are incapable of the
FR> inhuman tyranies they have instigated against humanity.
FR> Adolf Hitler took the tools which were created for exactly what he
FR> did. The Christian scapegoating of Jews was traditional -- or don't
FR> you know anything about how Christanic death cultists would claim Jews
FR> were "nailing" their "sacramental hosts" so that they could murder
and
FR> take over their lands and properties?
bj> You are correct in saying people that claimed to be Christians
bj> did all kinds of terrible things back in history! You are way off
bj> base when saying Adolf Hitler was a christian! He was a catholic,
bj> not a Christian!
Ah, yes. The hate-spew by death cultists who want to deny that every Christian
who came before them weren't "TRUE Christians."
No wonder the Christanic death cult has the history it does with people
like you trying to avoid responsibility for your death cult.
~*~ Pray for his soul. - Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Apostles
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:55:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b03
PID: FM 2.02
KM> Actually Steve I do realize it, but we will see if your still
KM> amused about it, after judgement day.
FR> Ah, yes. The Christanic death cultist's threat when they have no
FR> reason or logic.
bj> Steve seems to be a lost soul.
FR> Why not do what Christanic death cultists have done for centuries?
FR> Kill him.
bj> Again, please don't lump cults, like catholics
bj> into what a real christian would do.
It would seem as thought you're still trying to avoid responsibility for
your death cult. You joined the death cult, you take responsibility for
what it has done and for what it continues to do.
Lose the death cult, Brad. Lose your hatred.
~*~ Get thee behind me Satan. - Kenneth Mcabee
Bend over. - Satan
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: detwitting twits
|Date: 06 Apr 96 14:04:58
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b09
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895543D1
PID: FM 2.02
mh> I had resisted creating a twit filter for two years, because I felt
mh> that I should do my own filtering. I finally twitted a few people,
mh> because their posts to me were consistently pointless.
Hide from the truth all you want, buttfuck. We'll still be here exposing
your death cult right out in front of you. You may close your eyes and
pretend that it'll all go away but we'll still be here.
And you know what? There's not a Goat damed thing you can do about it.
~*~ Pray for the salvation of all in this conference. - Jason Massey
Please do. By the way, I'll be praying to Satan for your damnation.
- David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Selena Kerr
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:41:07
EID:0849 20849520
PID: Telegard 2.99.g4 [ml]
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31601ae8
MSGID: 1:252/107 316417c3
TID: GE 1.11+
|07-=> Quoting Don Martin to Selena Kerr <=-`03`03
DM> By the evidence of the way your mind works, as
DM> demonstrated by your posts.
DM> A number doubtless limited to those who read your stuff.
You're mean. What the fuck did i do to deserve this. I guess that is what
I get for displaying my views which happen to differ from those of a christian
loser. I'm sorry. never again.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:01:00
EID:e246 20844020
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Germiquet <=-
DC> You can now pick your mind up off the floor, where her blow to
DC> your neck sent it careening.
Sliced, diced and Julienned...and I wasn't even using a Ginsu.
... Sure I like kids. Wanta exchange recipes?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: MIKE'S PRETEND GAME
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:10:00
EID:9180 20844140
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Fredric Rice <=-
DC> That's a shame as it's a "chamois"!
He was spelling the Dutch word for it in English phoenetics. (zeem)
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 04 Apr 96 09:01:00
EID:d7b6 20844820
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
DC> Ahhh, Al, that was song by Roger Daltry! You remember who he is...
Yeah, the immortal Fitzcairn on Highlander.
(And, Jack, if you are reading this...yes, I know Fitz lost his head)
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:17:00
EID:1f57 20844220
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Jerry Gilbreath <=-
EF> We've seen this 1,000, 5,000 or more times, Jerry. Make sure you
EF> really understand the principles of evolution if you want to discuss
EF> it. Don't make us educate you on the basics.
The thing is, Jerry's been here before...and had all this and MORE (lots
more)
already posted to him. He's just coming back with all the same old tired
arguments, thinking no one would recognize his name.
... Sign on fence; SALESMEN WELCOME, DOGFOOD IS EXPENSIVE.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: NEED QUOTE
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:23:00
EID:4ddc 208442e0
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Al Schroeder <=-
JH> The KJV is in the public domain and available for ftp from a
JH> variety of sites.
I've tried d/l it from a couple of places and for some reason have ended
up with only the NT...even though the file descriptions say 'complete'.
I just haven't made it the burning passion of the moment. Probably easier
to go buy the shareware version for $9...on CD but I've been too busy with
the shop and 'I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream'. There's a headbender for
you. You can't complete the 'game' unless you use ethical solutions to the
problems presented. I say 'complete' because there is no win in this game,
except for humanity. The major characters ALL get killed off.
And Harlan Ellison himself is the voice of the psychotic computer.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: HARVEST MOON ECLIPSE
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:31:00
EID:4160 208443e0
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Dan Ceppa <=-
JH> That's just fucking great. We've been blessed by a dick.
As long as he keeps the 'baptism' to himself, I don't mind.
... nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER (YAWN)
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:38:00
EID:4232 208444c0
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Jim Germiquet <=-
KD> Physical abuse by men is NOT a response to mental abuse by women. Or
KD> are you about to claim that "nagging" is mental abuse?
From what I've seen him saying, DISAGREEING with a man is mental abuse.
... Are you waiting for your prey?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Staal
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:44:58
EID:cd8d 20848580
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31640339
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Staal <=-
NS> HEY, I'M NEW:
NS> 1% Dan Ceppa, 10% Jim Staal,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DC> With a Origin Line such as that, everthing you have posted to
DC> me is suspect. Thank your good buddy, Jimmy Staaled for having
JS> Hmmm...what's wrong with his origin line, Danno?
DC> It's quite simple, Staal: You've posted from there.
JS> Yeah...so? Not anymore, man...
JS> -!- PPoint 2.00
JS> ! Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
NS> So now you're a point on Bloom County Hospital at (616) 361-2268 in
NS> Grand Rapids Michigan, still SysOpped by Glen Davis, eh?
NS> Interesting. What feelings of power you must have. Heh. This just
NS> makes everyone who posts from the south-east of Michigan suspect.
....Now that's original.....Can't do better than Sue, Huh?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Staal
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:49:37
EID:9a25 20848620
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3164033a
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to All <=-
FR> @MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2a09b060
FR> Jim Staal
claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
....For the mere reason of having no clue of reality, I
dont think you deserve the apology I already wrote...
FR> ~*~ Does that include those who sacrificed their first born children,
FR> or just the ones who eat their enemies. - Jesse Hornbacher
FR> -!-
FR> ! Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Staal
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 04 Apr 96 16:59:33
EID:39fb 20848760
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3164033b
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Fredric Rice <=-
LB> @MSGID: 1:109/601.0 315dd306
LB> Lynda and Fredric were killing time yakking about jim staal lies
LB> again: JB> I know it is late and I hope you will understand. My
LB> condolences JB> to you and your family. It is never easy to lose
LB> someone you JB> love.
js> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
js> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
ks> George and the rice brothers.
lb> What have the Rice bros. said to you about this? The only
lb> negative post I've seen regarding your father's death has
lb> come from George.
...Lynda, where in that text did Jim say that The rice brothers
even said anything concerning His fathers' death...he just
stated the truth by saying the rice brothers were cruel...
LB> I did, trust me. I got no answer to the above question. I suspected
LB> then, and suspect now, that he misunderstood my expression of sympathy
LB> regarding his father's death, as well as my distaste for George R.
LB> choosing to use said death as an opportunity to "score a hit" as
LB> indication that I now think there should now be some sort of "period
of
LB> mourning" in which they are treated with special kindness on ANY topic.
LB> While you and Dave have continued to go after them on other issues
LB> (and I would expect nothing different there), I know, Staal knows, and
LB> you know that neither of you have used his father's death in a "cruel"
LB> manner...his silence in regard to answering my questions speaks volumes
LB> on this score.
LB> I AM sorry that his family is dealing with the loss of a loved one.
LB> But it is as annoying to see it used to garner special sympathy as it
LB> is to see it used as an opportunity to hurt someone.
...ps. next time you want an apology from me, make sure that I said
the accused statement and not Jimbo....
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Staal
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 04 Apr 96 17:02:59
EID:1a60 20848840
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3164033c
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Fredric Rice <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/26.14 3aceaf4e
JS> On (24 Mar 96) Fredric Rice wrote to Lynda Bustilloz...
ms> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
ms> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
ms> George and the rice brothers.
lb> What have the Rice bros. said to you about this? The only
lb> negative post I've seen regarding your father's death has
lb> come from George.
FR> Consider the source. Religion has so badly damaged Jim that he's got
FR> to lie even about this.
JS> Yes, Fred, continue to delude yourself on this. It is funny to note
JS> that even 'live' in real time and both Mark and myself are present at
JS> the same time in #holysmoke you still cling to your obsession. What
is
JS> equally interesting is that even though the rest of the participants
JS> know the truth as well (about markie and myself being separate
JS> individuals) they all let you continue to wallow in your delusion.
JS> Let's just get over it once, Fred, admit you are/were wrong and
JS> perhaps Mark can learn from your example. (admitting he was wrong)
....I thought I did by posting an apology, But, where in the above
statement did I say that they said anything about dads' death? I merely
stated that they were "CRUEL" and I still stick to that statement...AND
until Ferdie can get over his little obsession I'll retract my apology
seeing it was siad under a misunderstanding of Ferdies' part.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Staal
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Re: mark staal
|Date: 04 Apr 96 17:05:19
EID:cdb3 208488a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3164033d
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to MArk Staal <=-
SA> @MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 2c154733
>KDM> the living. That is what I'm upset about.
>KDM> Jim's grandfather is dead;
>
SA> Thereby implying that he's not YOUR father, as well?
No, implying he was Jim and My Father not _Grandfather_.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Staal
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: mark staal
|Date: 04 Apr 96 17:06:28
EID:ba7f 208488c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3164033e
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Mark Staal <=-
KDM> @MSGID: 1:157/200 7e1403ef
KDM> MARK STAAL spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MS> KDM> Two or three days after it happened? I've been in the same
MS> KDM> sort of situation too, George, though the person involved did
MS> KDM> not die. However, when it did happen, my thought was not for
MS> KDM> the dying, but for the living. That is what I'm upset about.
MS> KDM> Jim's grandfather is dead;
MS>
KDM> Yours as well, yes? Thank you, though. I was looking at things from
KDM> my own perspective, I guess.
No, I meant he was Jims' _FATHER_ NOT _GRAND_father.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: STEREOTYPE (SONY)
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:35:19
EID:f739 20849460
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 18636b25
On (02 Apr 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Jim Staal...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
JS> Ok, so one crummy alias wasn't that obvious. I had my reasons. All of
JS> which were legitimate...:)
JB> Only one reason, Jim. To try to give yourself a way out of taking the
JB> heat for the bullshit you spew. Not legitimate...irresponsible.
Judith, that is not the truth. You may believe what you like (we all do)
but that just is not fact.
JB> ... If you fell into a barrel of tits you'd come up sucking your
JB> thumb.
Yeah...but what a smile...:)
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:36:28
EID:e507 20849480
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 4de26539
On (02 Apr 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Jim Staal...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Fredric Rice <=-
JS> Give it up, Fred. You know the truth of the matter...every body does.
JS> You have just wrongly accused me of doing something I didn't do.
JB> Yeah, Jim, we DO know the truth. And the truth is that NO ONE said one
JB> unkind word to you or Mark about your father except George. NO ONE!
Judith, you are absolutely correct! We agree! I never had any different
point of view nor did I state any.
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
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SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: jim staal lies again
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:37:53
EID:ccac 208494a0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 ee8b95a7
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 3164033c
On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote to Jim Staal...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Fredric Rice <=-
JS> Let's just get over it once, Fred, admit you are/were wrong and
JS> perhaps Mark can learn from your example. (admitting he was wrong)
MS> ....I thought I did by posting an apology,
I must have missed that, Mark. Just let it ride (as I already
have...even though Fred won't let the you=me thing die, let's just
apologize and try, try, try to let it ride *no apologies to Randy
Bachmann* )
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
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PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: jim staal lies again
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:41:18
EID:ccac 20849520
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 f669aa96
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 3164033c
On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote to Jim Staal...
ms> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
ms> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
ms> George and the rice brothers.
MS> ....I thought I did by posting an apology, But, where in the above
MS> statement did I say that they said anything about dads' death? I
MS> merely stated that they were "CRUEL" and I still stick to that
MS> statement...AND until Ferdie can get over his little obsession I'll
MS> retract my apology seeing it was siad under a misunderstanding of
MS> Ferdies' part.
Ahh...no need to bring it up in the first place...just let it die and
maybe he'll come around...
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: jim staal lies again
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:54:49
EID:ccac 208496c0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 bd872c07
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 3164033b
On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote to Lynda Bustilloz...
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Fredric Rice <=-
js> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
js> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
ks> George and the rice brothers.
MS> ...Lynda, where in that text did Jim say that The rice brothers
MS> even said anything concerning His fathers' death...he just
MS> stated the truth by saying the rice brothers were cruel...
HELLO!? Where in that text (initials changed by Fred, of course) did it
say that _I_ said anything. That is your quote, dude. Never let anyone forget
that...
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLERGORY
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:08:00
EID:1788 2082b100
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 09:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> I'm not sure what kind of ailments assail you...
DC> I'm aflicted with cronic apundicitis.
AS> That's what you get for being the fastest Pun in the West.
You forgot the obligatory: "mea culpable"!
... Typo's can and will be used against you. Should you wish, a secretary
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:12:00
EID:3741 2082b180
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 07:05, Kenneth Mcabee got back to Ray Talley
KM> Would never use a school as a recruiting ground for delusions, why?
KM> Because I don't have any delusions only truth. As far as preaching the
Would you kill your son if your god asked you to?
It's a trick question, Kenney, but you'll answer it once again,
confirming your delusions, won't you.
... "I'd be a Christian...if it wasn't for Christians." - Ghandi
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 03 Apr 96 14:14:00
EID:bf90 208371c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 07:09, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> gem you may pick up from the twitee. Got a bit of info from
DC> Prewitt, BTW.
AS> Did you check it from at least three independent sources?
I only saved the stuff he said that included documentation. If
necessary, I can check out his references. Most of what he
sends, especially the IFO files is bullshit.
1 AS> OR...maybe he's reading you ALL, and just trying to see who will
AS> rise to the bait.
AS> Why do I feel like I'm in the middle of a sitcom where two people are
Maybe it's because you made comment #1 above?
AS> that's Mike's plan. He also says it's not the question, but the
AS> insulting manner in which it was raised. But again, that's between you
AS> and him.
Mikey fails to realize that my noise level parallels his. It's fun
watching him escalate on each post. I only provide the additional
fuel for him to immolate himself.
He's the king of of the ad hominen yet stubbornly refuses to admit it.
Yet, he is the first to get bent out of shape if he thinks one has
been used against him.
Besides, asking for evidence is not an insult. He has yet to provide
any for the way he places biblical passages into various categories
other than what he thinks they should be.
... I didn't twit anyone, it's all an allegory!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jon Vandenberg
|Date: 03 Apr 96 14:30:00
EID:a166 208373c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 12:55, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
JS> Just a note about besser george:
Staal, if you told me the sun rose this morning, I'd go outside
to varify that information.
... I am Staal of Borg. Can I, uhh, err, do something? I forgot....
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 03 Apr 96 14:43:00
EID:6928 20837560
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-24-96 23:42, Rob Burcham got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> RB> Progressive Conservatives? Do you also have Reactionary
DC> RB> Liberals?
DC> They are on either side of the Neutral Activists.
RB> I like it when guys like Dole and Gingrich say they have a vision for
RB> America. A vision of what, 1910?
If you remember, there was a group back in the late '60's that
fit their bill: The 1910 Fruit Gum Company.
That's right, Sugar Coated Bubblegum Politics, with the stuff
still tasting bitter after the first few chews..
... "Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.": J Falwell
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 03 Apr 96 14:51:00
EID:869e 20837660
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 23:12, Jerry Gilbreath got back to Karen Davis
KD>There is TONS of evidence for evolution. And actual evidence DISPROVING
KD>the Bible, particularly the accounts of creation and the Noachian flood.
JG> I don't have time to sift through tons of evidence, so just send a
JG> page or two. :)
IOW, you haven't seen any of the evidence that you back your claim
on, have you.
JG> BTW, how do you think the sediment was deposited?
A better question is for you to answer Mary Leipzig:
Ask this miscreant about the lack of thousands of feet of
sediment on the Canadian, Indian, and Indo-European Shields and
the why the summit of Everest is composed of marine limestone.
Marty will be back shorty, and would like your answer...
... +Origin: MAHARISHI! NETWORK, CHANTING FOR...uh, whomever
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 03 Apr 96 14:54:00
EID:869e 208376c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 23:12, Jerry Gilbreath got back to David Worrell
JG> The Genesis account states that the mountains were covered with
JG> water. Sediment settles out of water.
Looks like you learned something.
Now, apply it:
Explain the limestone on top of Mt Everest.
... Do I BELIEVE in the Bible?! HELL man, I've SEEN one!!!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 03 Apr 96 14:58:00
EID:869e 20837740
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 23:12, Jerry Gilbreath got back to Martin Goldberg
JG> If evolution requires more than about 14,000 years there is plenty of
JG> evidence to the contrary. People have been around for 6,000 years,
JG> and several dating methods for the earth indicate an approximate age
JG> of about 20,000 years or less.
"Lucy" shows that you are wrong, by a factor of 400 or so. As to
the earth, you are off by about a factor of 2.5 thousand.
JG> BTW, what do you consider to be the most convincing evidence in
JG> favor of evolution?
That you are becoming a divergent species lacking a brain.
... When your IQ rises to 28, sell.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 03 Apr 96 15:44:00
EID:045a 20837d80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 11:43, Jim Staal got back to Sue Alexander
SA> Obvious, like Lon S. Mabon. Yeah, right...
JS> Ok, so one crummy alias wasn't that obvious. I had my reasons. All of
JS> which were legitimate...:)
To show just what a bigot you really are. You should be proud
of yourself, Jimbo. It' about the only thing you got right
since you came into this echo.
... "Swaggart is no con man. He is a former televangelist!" Staal
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 03 Apr 96 20:13:00
EID:7f93 2083a1a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-02-96 12:32, Lynda Bustilloz got back to All
LB> I expect there will be those here who will crow that they KNEW I
LB> wasn't a True Christian, and be very relieved not to have to deal with
Well, does it help to say that I suspected you weren't because
you showed too much intelligence, "especially for a girl"?
LB> be a few who realize that while this is no occasion for rejoicing, it
LB> does not mean that I have changed in regards to who I am -- just in
On the contrary: Knowing who you are is always a great victory and
the reason that you should rejoice in knowing yourself.
LB> At any rate, I don't think this will make much difference in the
LB> quality or style of my posts, or in what issues catch my attention.
I
It's that quality and style that could my eye in the first place.
LB> hope it will not change anything in regards to who I consider friend.
That depends... What flavor cookies are you gonna send me?
LB> But I have tried where possible to be honest, even in this echo where
LB> honesty is a landmine for the unwary, and I cannot in good conscience
Thing is, the landmines are placed by the ingenuous. It's when
they step on their own that they placed that they are both the most
vulnerable and most likely to learn from they experience, if they
let themselves.
LB> be pointed to as an example of Christianity, when Christianity has
LB> made it so clear that it does not want my kind within its ranks.
Seems like a very good, well versed speaker for them was drummed
out of the cause for doing the unspeakable: Showing that she
has a brain and is not afraid to use it.
... Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: [1/2] [1/2] Tithe
|Date: 03 Apr 96 20:21:00
EID:bdf0 2083a2a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 22:05, Rob Burcham got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Please explain to me just what any real benefit any professional
DC> sporting event provides to anyone, let alone society in general?
RB> They allow us to take out our tribal aggressions on
RB> neighboring tribes without doing any real damage.
I see that you have never attended a European Soccer Game,
have you? The violence exhibited by the spectators make a
Gretzki slap shot look like he was throw miniature marshmallows
with a broken rubber band at the BB Missouri.
... "Dave. My mind. It's going. Plot course to Mt. Ararat?"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:25:00
EID:9c8e 2083bb20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 03:05, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Glactus was never killed off....or was he?
AS> outside the barrier. And of all people...it was Ben Grimm, the Thing,
Well, Ben always new his force!
AS> who first suggested that. Galactus is now said to be "essential" to
AS> our reality...that if he did die, the universe would die.
That kinda takes Galactus out as a general character. I'd always
liked the battles between the FF as well as with the Surfer. I
think the Watcher once had a run in with him, too.
... Contents of this message may settle during shipping.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:35:00
EID:11a1 2083bc60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 03:03, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> that something is false because it has not been shown to be true.
DC> It is. It's the only way you can procede in an orderly fashion. If
DC> not, you would spend your life looking for unicorns. As there is
AS> were no unicorns? I forget her name, but she said, "But...but...there
AS> ARE zebras, and zebras have stripes, which are just plain silly!" I
If you run across the reference, please let me know!
AS> Still, I don't call it a fact, I just say there are no evidence for
AS> unicorns, the way they are normally depicted. Although they were
AS> probably inspired by distorted tales of real animals like rhinoceros.
That, though, is far different. You have a creature(s) that can
be found and studied. It's only the second or third hand
interpretation of the data, collected by possibly an amazed
individual that gets skewed in the process.
AS> unproven assumption strikes me as a misuse of the word. In the
DC> Thing is, it falls into the same category as unicorns.
AS> Well...a significant minority of the human race have had religious
AS> experiences. (Interestingly, I was reading last night that Aldouis
There are also a lot of people that claim that UFO's exist and
many have said they have had a Close Encounter of the Third Kind.
AS> "fact", that's all, which to me is data, not the absence of data. Sean
AS> is in essence saying he can prove a negative.
DC> To an extent, he can. The absense of evidence points to his
DC> premise.
AS> I suspect we are arguing over semantics. What I would call "an
That seems to be so...
AS> unproven assumption" he calls the negative a "fact". I generally
AS> reserve that for something that I have evidence FOR.
You almost got it there... Problem is, if something does not
exist, what sort of evidence would you like me to provide that
it doesn't?
As you note above, a lack of evidence doesn't mean it isn't so.
However, the lack of evidence tends to point to the fact that
what is surmised isn't there. In the case of unicorns, the
facts that arose upon investigation pointed to animal(s) far
different from the myths propogated around them. The "unicorns"
existed, but in a far more ordinary fashion than the way they
were dipicted in the myths.
... "Bother!" said Pooh, "I only wanted to *stun* Tigger."
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:47:00
EID:2514 2083bde0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 00:06, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> that the later documents are copies of other than what was
DC> written at that time.
No, it shows the dry Egyptian climate is very well-suited to preserving
AS> ancient manuscripts. Dan, we don't have (by a LARGE margin) the
So was the area in and around Palestine. Hence, the DSS.
AS> Process of elimination. James and John are mentioned very prominently
AS> in the other Gospels. The Gospel of John mentions all of them BUT
DC> What about the disciples Ralph and Norton? They weren't mentioned
DC> in any of the gospels... ;)
AS> One of these days, Dan, one of these DAYS...POW! ZOOM! To the
AS> MOON! What did Norton do, dig the latrines for the apostles as
AS> they were travelling?
Pehaps. After all, they were under Judaic law. Ralph was
probably the wagon master that moved them around.
AS> of course, the writer of the Gospel of John claims to BE the "disciple
AS> Jesus loved best" (I want to see a Gospel by the disciple Jesus "just
DC> that "beloved disciple" was none other than Judas.
AS> WHAT??? And JUDAS dogged Peter's steps, even outrunning Peter to the
AS> tomb? And Judas sometimes called himself the "beloved disciples" and
AS> sometimes "Judas". Judas described his own death? I see that Lazarus
AS> and JEsus weren't the ONLY ones to pull off a Resurrection around
AS> here...
You may be right. If you look into the backgrounds of the disciples,
you will perhaps notice one person in the group that stands out
from all the others in the following.
AS> that he didn't name them...either out of modesty, out of vanity ("the
DC> So, you are saying that the word of god was modified out of human
DC> emotion and doesn't depict the true word of god.
AS> ???? Certainly it reflects the emotions and bias of the human
AS> author. I don't think the Scriptures are literally God dictating word
That's a start. Only when you realize that the books where
written with a current agenda can you really see why they were
written in the first place.
AS> for word and that Matthew, Mark, John,et al were taking down
AS> dictation. I think, basically, that what we see as the Scriptures are
No, they are said to be. Other than the fact that the books
protray themselves to be just that, there is no independent
evidence to support that.
AS> others quite clearly. They were not "possessed". And yes, one must
AS> take into account the personality and the bias of the writer.
That's a major key to the NT, as well as the OT.
AS> and Hume's essays to re-read and a book by Bishop Spong. The Paul
AS> book ought to be interesting in view of your belief that the church
AS> that we have is very different from the original Jerusalem Church.
Is that the Macabee book? If so, you will find it very interesting!
... "Eye's a Anglish majjur, an I neber heard tha' werd". Bro Jimmy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: better than
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:50:00
EID:fac7 2083be40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-30-96 23:18, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> over there with Preston Simpson. We're going to get a god group
DC> photo....
SA> This is starting to remind me of a local sub one board around here
SA> used to have, entitled:
SA> Valley of the Self-Proclaimed Gods.
Well, Sue, Preston earned his claim. I had mine thrust upon me.
No self-proclaimed gods here!
... "We became gods the old-fashioned way...We EARNED it!"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: better than
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:52:00
EID:1089 2083be80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-25-96 00:00, Rob Burcham got back to Dan Ceppa
RB> shorter anyway (God ego being what it is).
DC> Sure you can! You can do whatever you want. After all, you're
DC> a god...
RB> Ok, I think I'll require that everyone worship me or they'll suffer
RB> for eternity...oh wait, that's been done.
I know... That's why we're taking over the gig and having a
lot of fun, both for our selves as well as our followers!
... The Universe was dictated but never signed.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:56:00
EID:a99b 2083bf00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 07:53, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> Oh, bummer. The original must have came my way the first time my
SA> system conked.
Do you need a HD? I've got a couple of old MFM's gathering
dust... One's almost as slow as a floppy!
JH> wether they have paid the light bill yet this month or
JH> not). The food is great though.
SA> I swear I've heard of places like this before, but I simply cannot
SA> think _where_.
Most likely, you don't want to remember, until you want a
really good meal!
DC> I always wanted to open a place like that! Seriously!
SA> It does sound interesting, doesn't it?
It really does. Nothing like making the best for the cheapest
and having a good time watching patrons ask for More!
DC> to the Board of Health. Haggis is today's only offaling...."
SA> That's tempting fate though, isn't it? Never put "Board of
SA> Health" and "Haggis" in the same breath; it might give people
Of course, but they'd never dream it was serious... (I hope!)
... SPAM: meat. See also Squirrels, Possum And Mice
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORM
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:00:00
EID:9b65 20840000
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 08:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> reserve it for those who REALLY deserves it. Like Grigor-Scott.
AS> Judging from the last post I saw from him, where he called Marty
AS> Goldberg, of all people, anti-Semitic, I think you're right. He's
AS> full of it.
Makes him one of the very largest targets of opportunity out there.
It's not often that a target not only stands still but moves
purposely into the line of fire... Sure has cut down on my
need to re-arm!
... "Bother," said Pooh, as he spiked the punch at Owl's party.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:10:00
EID:c904 20840140
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 18:50, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Jim Germiquet
KW> Well, you haven't impressed me.
KW> But Dan often does (esp. in the pun threads).
It's just the way I wear my genes...tattered and torn... Just what
threads are you currently wearing? Maybe we could compare notes?
Maybe we could weave it into something, or at least string Jim
along.. :)
... Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Anthony Grigor-scott
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:16:00
EID:6a6a 20840200
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 22:45, Anthony Grigor-scott got back to Al Schroeder
AS> Many contemporary Jews claim descent from David, and can produce
AS> better pedigrees buttressed by more records than most descendents of
AG> This is a deliberate lie, and you should not tell lies. There is not
AG> one Israelite alive today who can trace his family tree with certainty.
Provide the facts, bigot. Show that not a single person that
has Hebrew origin is not alive. Or, bigot, did you think you
offed them all in the gas chambers in WW II?
AG> Kind regards,
Shove it up your ass, bigot.
... Mr Schreiber? Why did you get a tatoo that only says "127043"?
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Anthony Grigor-scott
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:21:00
EID:5464 208402a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 22:40, Anthony Grigor-scott got back to Al Schroeder
AG> Dear Al Schroeder,
Nice sounding homilies, coming from the likes of you, bigot.
AG> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You do Al's religion a very big diservice, though you will never
understand it, pinhead.
AS> Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together. Witness the
AS> birth of the new Nazi party.
AG> Oh no, you can't place that Jewish invention (via Karl Ritter) on any
AG> Christian. You keep your Nazi party and your crackpot ideas. Besides,
It's you that have embrassed the bigotry of the Nazis and have made
it your religion, bigot.
AG> `The Just Men' and they were in fact the Rothschilds if memory serves
AG> correctly), Communism, is what will be employed.
Memory of any type is beyound you. Your lucky that you remember
to breath.
AG> Kind regards,
More sweet platitudes, bigot.
... "Eat shit. 10 billion flies can't be wrong." Brian Syme
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:34:00
EID:703d 20840440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 02:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> posed as a question to you: Which group of xiantians is the
DC> fastest growing? The conservatives or the liberal versions?
AS> Conservative. But then, despite the sex on TV and the movies, this is
AS> really a more repressive society than we grew up in. AIDS, the coming
And, Al, why is that?
AS> millinium,the rise of both the political and the religious right (not
AS> arguing politics, but that's very different from the sixties, where
AS> the right was on the defensive), the approaching millinium which I
Which is the "right"? The liberal christians or the conservative?
It makes a big difference on what will happen at the "millenium".
AS> think will panic a lot more people into going to church as they think
AS> the end of the world might come at 2000 AD. I expect there will be a
And, what evidence is there to support their point of view? The
last comet? The number of earthquakes? Mt St Helens erupting?
AS> liberal period coming between 2000 to 2020. When I grew up, sleeping
Perhaps, if the conservatives allow things to last that long. After
all, the best way to make prophecy work is to take it into your
own hands and make it happen. They are attempting to make it
happen know, not bothering to realize that it doesn't have to
work that way.
That's the truly scary part of what they believe.
... The civilization of one epoch is the manure of the next.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:39:00
EID:703d 208404e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-31-96 03:05, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Why would a god need to be humbled? Oh yeah, forgot all the
DC> egotism evinced in the OT! Also, an omnipotent god would not
DC> have to do that, as it already would now of the attributes
DC> required to be humble.
AS> Except finitude. He knows intellectually, of course. He "experiences"
AS> it. But I can watch a movie about sailing. It is another thing
He doesn't need to live it, Al. He "created it". He had to
either know what he was doing or he didn't. On the former,
there is no need. On the later, he isn't omniscient.
AS> He can divert His attention to someone else if He wants, contemplate
a
Not if he's omniscient....
DC> Not necessarily. Consider if not a single elephant made the crossing.
DC> Then, consider that the Romans, suffering a defeat or two at the
DC> hands of the Carthaginians, make up the story to incite their
DC> people because of the "deadly weapon". Far fetched? It may
DC> have been repeated in the Gulf of Tonkin.
AS> Hmmm. Good point.
Thank you..
DC> See above. As an attack would come at a rather undefended rear
DC> area, it's quite possible that the elephants never made it there.
AS> Just like Washington never cut down the cherry tree.
But, the "story" makes a better story....
... Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:58:00
EID:9f31 20840740
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-30-96 07:57, Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> They'll probably give the carcharias carcharindon a bad case of gas.
ML> By the Great White: _Carcharodon carchiarias_!
What can I say? I don't have a book on ichthyology, and I don't
have a copy of _Jaws!_ either! Dreyfus over it?
ML> Let me sound the requiem...
Just what do you requir'em?
DR> The sceanery down at the beach where I live is nice, though
DR> their boyfriends are awefully teritorial. . . .
DC> See if you can challenge them into swimming a 5 pound raw beef
DC> out a mile the fastest...
ML> Care for a dip, Chum?
It's a lot more sporting than drift-netting, at least!
... If I have any belief, it is that faith is a dangerous thing. --RBJ
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 04 Apr 96 01:06:00
EID:99e2 208408c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-28-96 15:00, Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa
-> On 03-25-96 15:02, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> It's quite simple, Staal: You've posted from there.
ML> DEAD HAND FROM THE PAST!
I'd say "Dead Head", but there are good people out there that
worship Garcia...
ML> Is Herr Conmrade Staal's work here yet undone?
That's hard to say... It depends on just how big of an
idiot he intends to make himself. As it stands, the
Goodyear Blimp feels like he's encroaching with his hot
airhead approach.
... Pray for Jim Staal (see Psalm 137:9)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 04 Apr 96 10:22:00
EID:620d 208452c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89560E37
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-01-96 18:50, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> KW> I am not either purple, Styx. I am a proud pale blue Scottish
DC> DC> JB> With tartan overlay?
DC> DC>Never thought that she was tan, but I was unsure about the tart
DC> KW> :P
DC>comdemn you to hell with Michael Hardy as your compatriot!)
DC>After all, I do have a sense of humor... ;)
KW> Ugh! What have I ever done to deserve that?
Nothing, really, it's just the previous messages I read had a lot
to do with condemning people to hell. As a god, I figured I
better get the hang of it!
KW> condemn me to hell, at least pick someone interesting to talk to as
my
KW> compatriot.
Ok, who would you like to be condemed to with?
KW> condemned for all time, chained between Jim Staal and Assmotron. ;)
Now, now, let's be nice!
KW> No, best not. That much senseless babbling would cause a normal person
KW> to retreat into shock in no time (on the other hand, are you exactly
KW> normal?).
Most likely not. If I was, I'd be crazy by now!
... Choose heaven for climate, hell for society.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: Evil Scientists Cabal
|Date: 03 Apr 96 15:27:00
EID:2a14 20837b60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Mark Barnett <=-
> 25 Mar 96 12:49, Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Mark Barnett:
>>>MB> Well I can agree on that and thank you for this post I
>>>MB> told a Preacher freind of mine about this to night at
>>>MB> his church and he said that our argument was for nought
>>>MB> that the stratum had been found but that the non-belivers
>>>MB> had hid the evidence so as not to prove the Bible.
ROTFL!
>>DW> Really? Do me a favor and ask your preacher friend
>>DW> exactly how the unbelieve[rs] managed to hide this stratum.
>>DW> Be sure to get back to me with this informatio I am
>>DW> intensely curious about this.
ROTFL^2! (as Marty puts it)
>MB> Ok I will try and talk to him sunday and get back to you
>MB> sunday night but no promises he thinks I have fell in
>MB> with the devil because I talk to you all.
ROTFL^28!
DW> I'm still waiting on this information, Mark.
The last hope the Noah-myth-believing Creationists had for
evidence of a "flood stratum" was CONCEEDED as false by the
contemporary Creationists in the mid-1800s. It was a known
and widly recognized fact that much of North and Centeral
Europe had (and still has) a layer of sediment that could and
cannot be explained by localized flooding of rivers and
streams--- it was at first believed to have been caused by
the "global flood" found in the Genesis myths, until the
evidence demonstrated that this layer was deposited by the
RETREATING GLACIERS of the current "ice age" (the one we
are still in).
Glaciers pulverize rock into dust, and then suck up that dust
and deposit it on top of the ice. It left a very
characteristic deposit that could not be confused with any
sort of flooding, let alone a "global" one.
So if you are waiting for Mark to produce this evidence of a
Satanic Scientific censorship of "evidence" for his "stratum,"
you have a real long wait. :-)
... I Am A Charter Member Of Mikey Hardly's Truth Filter!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 03 Apr 96 16:28:00
EID:7516 20838380
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to David Rice <=-
>> be more or less able to draw that money from French, Chilean,
>> New Zealand, and American banks while out there. After five
>> months, I dunno what the fuck I'll do for money.
FR> I still say that you should stay in my back yard in the
FR> tent so that you're not wasting money on a rental. You
FR> can paint my house in payment. I'm getting a power paint
FR> roller system for $40.00 which would make it easier.
I would sooner live on a boat. I heard a rumor that Dana
Point Harbor wants to increase the number of live-aboards
because it is thought that the amount of stealing from boats
would be less if more people were on the docks.
>> Going to these islands includes going to Church on Sunday
>> (it's absolutely expected of all guests). Most churches are
>> some form of Catholic. Sermons and hymns are generally in
>> French and Polynesian dialects, so I can listen politely
>> because I won't understand what they're saying.
FR> You can pretend you're sick. Fill your mouth with creamed
FR> corn and, when they motor up, lean out over the rail and
FR> yark it out.
ROTFL! If I tried this, the boat would be chained to the
quarantine buoy (if not scuttled outright) and I would be
shipped to Hawaii (wrapped in plastic) in a W.H.O. plane
I really don't mind going to their churches. In fact, I am
looking forward to doing so, since I want to meet the people.
In the smaller Tongan islands, the Tongans are so friendly
that they often will not leave visitors alone. One cruiser I
talked to at the Avantura Sailing Association said that she
had so many Tongans swimming up to her boat to visit, she had
no time to clean, work on the boat, shower, or sleep.
She finally figured out a way to get some time to herself:
When she wanted them to leave, she would tell them that "this
is my time to spend alone with the lord," then she'd take out
a Bible and they would leave.
>> Not that it matters at all, but I've never done such a thing
>> before, and I'll probably die from drowning. But what the
>> fuck.
FR> Yeah, what the fuck. Just don't go too far South and try
FR> to make it through the Horn.
I don't plan on going South-East. . . but then, captian Ron
taught me everything I know about celestial navigation so I
guess it =COULD= happen. :-) I'll be going South-West, to
Hawaii, then South-South-West.
Cape Horn would be a real bitch. I think I'll pass up the
experience, thank you anyhow. It is 6100 miles away, and
what with the Panama Canal being only half that distance,
only very large ships go 'roung the Cape these days (they
cannot squeeze through the locks).
At the Panama Canal one must have at least FIVE people on the
boat before one is allowed to go through. One for the helm
and one each for the tow and spring lines. Crusiers who do
not have five people must moor at the bottom or top basins
and wait for other cruisers to show up. When five people
show up, they each help the other boats go through. This
takes several days, but it beats freezing to death at the
Cape.
It also beats running into the blasphemous, ever-damned
Captain Vandeckersen. (Yeah, wrong Cape, but what the hell.)
I plan on finishing my book _Six_Ways_Damned_ while making
the passages, if I can get a portable computer.
FR> Boating by yourself is a stupid and dangerous thing to do.
Many hundreds of people leave California's coast every year
single-handed, and head to the South Pacific at the end of
February. I plan on leaving mid-February with this "fleet."
Most of the time any given boat is in radio range with
several other boats.
There are emergency satellite beacons that use GPS to tell
the Coast Guard where a boat is--- they start sending when
they are put in salt water.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Keep your mits off my Rit
|Date: 03 Apr 96 16:46:00
EID:7953 208385c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to All <=-
FR> I just saw in the news that a man walked by someone's
FR> desk in an office and swiped a Ritz cracker. After the
FR> owner of the crackers yelled insults at the thief, he
FR> went out to his car, got a gun, and started shooting
FR> at the cracker thief.
Must have been quite the cracker fanatic. People are so damn
insane these days. I think the reason is because there are
far too many people crammed into smaller spaces.
FR> I know how he feels. I'll often have cans of
FR> Diet Coke stacked on my desk and someone will come by and
FR> take one. I also have bought in a box of doughnuts, set
FR> them on my desk, and people just seem to naturally assume
FR> that I'm willing to share them. I no longer put pretzels
FR> on my desk for the same reason.
I bought a pallet of cressent rolls last month during lunch
(they were cheeper that way), and people here just assumed
they were provided by the company for them, and they helped
themselves to them without my knowledge.
But I had no thoughts of shooting these people.
Honest.
... "Let them eat cake." M. Antoinette "Let them eat shit." N. Gingrich
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: NEED QUOTE
|Date: 03 Apr 96 15:51:00
EID:3cac 20837e60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Al Schroeder <=-
>>JB> My bible is paper...not one of those nifty electronic ones
>>JB> with a search engine.
>AS> I use a paper Bible, but I go a Topical one to go
>AS> with it.
JH> The KJV is in the public domain and available for ftp from a
JH> variety of sites.
The "New American Standard" is also available. Its translations
were even more dishonestly forged than the NIV. The NAS is the
Bible of choice for most Christian racist cults.
... I'm Thomas Vail's best friend. And I know where the negatives are!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: Lanning Document
|Date: 03 Apr 96 15:53:00
EID:3af5 20837ea0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Norbert Sykes <=-
NS> Investigator Guide to Allegations of "Ritual" Child Abuse.
NS> by Kenneth Lanning, National Center for the Analysis of Violent
NS> Crime, FBI Academy, 1992.
JH> WOW! that was great! In fact, it was so damned good that one
JH> person I showed it to is wondering if it isn't a hoax.
JH>
JH> Do you know how one could go about getting a copy of the
JH> complete document?
I have several articles by Lanning. When I send the Scientology
diskettes to you, I'll include Lannings texts.
... Godly love: "Repent or become fuel!"
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Chris Foster
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Return of property
|Date: 05 Apr 96 06:40:54
EID:ef30 20853500
MSGID: 1:30251/1.0 316506c6
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 2ba04076
John: From one who has watched this in a couple of echos.
JB> To all who write me:
JB> I must not write into this echo after today, for 90 days, so that I
can
JB> have my property returned to me by the person who borrowed said property
JB> awhile back. I cannot, therefore, answer your messages.
JB> Apologies.
George is a pathetic little worm. But you might take heed to Staal. When
you loaned him your book way back when and he promised months ago to return
it and did not, all you had was a violation of a verbal agreement. He lied
when he said he'd return it. He lied when he said it was on its way. Unfortunately,
it is not illegal to lie, though it seems to be preferred behavior among
assholes like Rudzinski who meanwhile present themselves as moral paragons.
But a threat to destroy property in order to cause a change in behavior
or to force your silence *could* be considered extortion, depending on how
the laws are interpreted. That's a crime. It could even be a felony since
it is occuring in this kind of medium. I think that depends on local interpretation,
too. It will also depend on whether the jurisdiction from which the threat
was sent wants to take a report, or the jurisdiction in which it was received
is willing. Where I live, the jurisdiction in which a threat is received
takes the report.
The system operator of the BBS from which Rudzinski sent the message could
be liable as an accessory, as could the moderator of this message echo.
That, too, would depend on how the law might be interpreted and whether
or not they allow this sort of behavior to continue. It would be hard to
press a complaint on the original message, since there is no realistic way
the moderator or sysop can be held accountable at that time. But if no
action is taken beyond that, they could be accessories after the fact.
The value of the property being threatened is of no consequence. The issue
is that property is threatened in order to force the issue. For more specifics,
check with your city attorney or local law enforcement agency.
--- Maximus 3.00
* Origin: Colorado Science Resource (1:30251/1)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: CDA Court Challenge: Update #4
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:55:10
EID:0a03 208496e0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1646e380
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Declan McCullagh (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty parker.
Original dated: Apr 04 '96, 18:25
Message-Id:
From: Declan McCullagh
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CDA Challenge, Update #4
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Declan McCullagh / declan@well.com / Redistribute freely
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
April 3, 1996
NEW YORK -- This afternoon the action shifted to a Manhattan
courtroom, where a panel of Federal judges tried to decide what to do
with a CDA challenge filed after ours.
The lone plaintiff is Joe Shea, who declined to join the ACLU/ALA
coalition lawsuit and is suing on behalf of the American Reporter.
Shea has been pressing the NYC court to rule on his case before ours
is decided.
While we've taken pains to net.educate our judges with live -- albeit
buggy -- demos and six days of hearings, Shea is relying on hardcopy
to argue his case. This strategy is dangerous: if a relatively
ill-educated NYC court upholds the CDA, that precedent can hurt our
case.
In court today, U.S. Second Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Cabranes
proposed that Shea and the assistant U.S. Attorney defending the CDA
adopt the record of the Philadelphia case to avoid duplication of
evidence, testimony, and exhibits. Shea's attorney, Randall Boe, was
reluctant to agree, even though he would be allowed to present
additional evidence. (The DoJ's crack civil team declined to show
today.)
The court wasn't happy with Boe's response. It gave Shea and the
government until April 17 to decide to include the entire record of
the Philly lawsuit -- and said that if they don't, the court would
appoint its *own* computer expert to demo the Net and blocking
software on April 30.
Another possibility is that the New York court could stay its decision
until the Philly court issues its opinion. At the request of the
Pennsylvania three-judge panel, Marjorie Heins from the ACLU was in
NYC today to describe the latest in our case; she also suggested that
the Judge Cabranes' court had the option to wait. This could happen --
my friend Eric Freedman of Hofstra Law School tells me it is by no
means unusual for one Federal court to defer to parallel proceedings
in another.
No matter what the panels of judges decide, the two cases will be
consolidated on appeal to the Supreme Court. (If we lose, we have 60
to 90 days to file our appeal. If the DoJ loses, they have 20 to 30
days to file theirs.)
Bruce Taylor has a unique perspective on the hearings. He's the guy
who helped *write* the be-damned CDA and he's been its most vocal
supporter over the last year as president of the National Law Center
for Children and Families. I met Taylor last week at the Computers,
Freedom, and Privacy conference and we sucked down a few beers in the
hotel bar before he went cue-to-cue with Brock Meeks.
Taylor told me today that the assistant US atty for the Southern
District of New York was "just parroting what's happening in
Philadelphia" and had come down from NYC on Monday to observe the
proceedings.
A former porn-prosecutor, Taylor wears his successful convictions as a
badge of honor: "Comstock was an amateur!" He says his side is doing
well: "I've worked with the civil division before... They're very good
litigators who do their homework." (Of course, Taylor conveniently has
deluded himself into believing the CDA is constitutional.)
Today we also officially learned the identities of the DoJ's two
expert witnesses.
Since the DoJ is calling only two witnesses and we're calling just one
more, we should finish before April 26. (The DoJ's fax to our legal
team today says: "At this point, defendants do not plan to call
additional witnesses.") If this works out, we'll complete testimony on
April 12 and reserve April 15 for rebuttal.
As I reported in a previous dispatch, the first pro-CDA witness is Dan
R. Olsen, Jr., the incoming director of the Human Computer Interaction
Institute at Carnegie Mellon University. Currently the head of the
computer science department at Brigham Young University, Olsen will
testify about the "technical issues related to the 'safe harbor'
defenses" under the CDA. Olsen will be deposed, probably in
Washington, DC, on April 8.
Olsen was unwilling to tell me much in email earlier today:
"I understand your interest, having read your home page. I would be
happy to go over all of this with you when I actually move to CMU
in July and the case has completed. Until the case is resolved, it
would be inappropriate to discuss it. Thanks for your interest."
Note that BYU's rather Orwellian computer usage policies say:
"DON'T: Use BYU resources to view or transmit pornography... All the
activities and circumstances covered by this policy must comply with
the University's standards of Christian living... The University
community may direct questions or requests for exceptions to this
policy, as well as report any instances of noncompliance or
deviations to the Advancement Vice President."
How appropriate that a faculty member at such a school would take a
job as an administrator at equally-censorhappy Carnegie Mellon
University -- which is considering a truly heinous speech code and
still censors its USENET feed!
I predict lots of cybersmut when the second government witness
testifies. He's Special Agent Howard A. Schmidt from the Air Force
Office of Special Investigations, and will "present a demonstration
and testify concerning access to information, including sexually
explicit material, that is available online, including through the
Internet." Schmidt will be deposed on April 9.
Brock Meeks reports that Schmidt apparently is a member of the High
Technology Crime Investigation Association and has participated in a
"Law Enforcement Panel on Computer Forensics" for the 18th National
Information Systems Security Conference in Baltimore last October. He
also likes boats and fishing; hiking and camping.
It's a cinch that the April 12 hearing will be the best-attended. How
often do you get a chance to see a DoD Special Agent pull up smutty
GIFs on dual 8' projection screens in a Federal courtroom?
The question is, of course, which GIFs? On the WELL, folks are betting
that the salacious collection will include at least one snapshot of
female genitals nailed to a table. At least, that the image that Bruce
Taylor delights in using as an example of cybernastiness.
Still no word on the true identity of Grey Flannel Suit.
Stay tuned for more reports.
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
We're back in court on 4/12, 4/15, and possibly 4/26.
Mentioned in this CDA update:
The American Reporter
Joe Shea
DoD's Howard Schmidt
MU's HCI Institute
Dan Olsen at BYU
BYU's censorship policy
Censorship at CMU
Brock Meeks on Howard Schmidt:
Brock Meeks' CyberWire Dispatch on Bruce Taylor:
Joe Shea's complaints about ACLU wanting to "stand alone in the limelight":
This and previous CDA Updates are available at:
To subscribe to the fight-censorship mailing list for future CDA Updates
and
similar discussions, send "subscribe" in the body of a message addressed
to:
fight-censorship-request@andrew.cmu.edu
Other relevant web sites:
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(This CDA Update was compiled from various firsthand reports.)
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 04 Apr 96 03:04:00
EID:31b2 20841880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BBACAC
DC> "He sure plays a great meat ball."
DC> Sorry, Al, the debil made me paraphrase that.
AS> You leave Mick Jagger out of this.
DC> Ahhh, Al, that was song by Roger Daltry! You remember who he is...
Of course. But when mentions "devil" and the "sixties", "Sympathy for the
Devil" is a natural to remember...no matter Who we were discussing before.
Don't throw Stones at honest rememberance. That's for the Byrds.
AS> You realize all the twenty-somethings reading this are convinced
AS> we have BOTH finally lost it, don't you?
DC> Lost what? I've always been this way. I found out a long time
DC> ago that you have to be a bit crazy or you will go crazy!
Too, too true.
AS> sister of Mary's that even He never liked. In fact, she's even
AS> mentioned in Scripture. "Really, Mr. Peabody? I never heard of
AS> her." "Oh come now, Sherman. You mean you've never heard
AS> of...Auntie Christ?"
DC> Now, they do know that at least you have rounded the bend and
DC> forgot to straighten out your wheels for the next straightaway!
If I can just get those Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse out of my way....
... Now wait a minute... how do we know you're the REAL Angel of Death?
__
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 04 Apr 96 03:08:00
EID:31b2 20841900
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BBBEAE
AS> (Lovers of the Animaniacs TV show will notice that I have "lifted"
DC> Never seen the show, but it looks like I may have to now!
You would love it. Lunacy was never so lucid.
DC> Saved to GUESS.WH(O)ICH File.
I'm honored.
AS> I have ever seen of "Who's on First" as well as being hilarious to us
AS> who remember the sixties...)
DC> Just how many people who remember the sixties really were there?
DC> Sounds an awful lot like all those that claim to have been to Woodstock!
I know. More people claim to have been at Woodstock then fought in the
Vietnam War, I think.
... Life is never enough, but it's all you get.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 04 Apr 96 04:07:00
EID:2c52 208420e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BBD326
AS> Did you ever see the Dr. Phibes movies with Vincent Price? I thought
AS> they were funny, in a campy and horrofic way.
DC> Absolutely! The first was was down-right hysterical! The best
DC> scene in the entire movie was just after the "Death by Beasts".
DC> I was one of the very few in the theatre that caught the very
DC> wry humorist line as they attempted to remove the body...
Hmmm. I enjoyed it, but I don't recall it word for word. The line was...?
AS> Slasher films are old hat now, but then they were pretty different.
AS> Even though it was summer and the air conditioner was out, we rode
AS> home that night with the windows rolled up SHUT...to keep things from
DC> Sounds a lot like what happened when I first saw _Jaws!_ It had
DC> rained just before we got out of the theatre. As we walked to
DC> the car, we had to cross a puddle. The girl I was with was
DC> terrified to go over it!
Terror just ain't what it used to be...
... When one fights monsters; beware of becoming one. - Nietzsche
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: SPONG ON THE HERESY TRIAL
|Date: 04 Apr 96 04:00:00
EID:dff7 20842000
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BBEAF0
AS> I went to the library and came back with little I went for...the book
AS> Marilyn recommended, the book Dan recommended, both were not at the
AS> library, and even PAGANS AND CHRISTIANS, where I wanted to look up a
DC> OOC, Al... Where they checked out, or just not there? If checked
DC> out, was there a Do Date?
Neither one of them were in the catalogue. (That doesn't mean I can't get
it through the library, though. Any public library can order a book from
another library, and all I have to pay is the postage.) But I found some
books to make it worth my while.
DC> The reason I ask is because a lot of books like that either get
DC> checked out an unreturned or they "disapear" off of the bookshelves.
Sometimes, but here in Nashville usually they keep the books, and then
people scrawl their objections on the book. I've just finished a scholarly
book on the Execution of Jesus, written by a former professor of Duke
university. There were scrawled references from a busybody who disagreed
with some of his points. He makes some interesting points, however. He
goes into the legal methods of the Jews, as mentioned in the Mishnah,
but then he goes on to mention some interesting speculations. Most of the
criticism of the trial of Jesus...part of it being mentioned as happening
at nighttime, for instance, that goes against the Mishnah...or where the
members have to discuss it all night and render their verdict in the
morning...all depends on the Mishnah, which was compiled in the third
century and which forms the core of the larger collection, the Talmud...as
portraying the rules of conduct under which the FIRST century Sanhedrin
operated. We have no proof of this. H. Danby, in the "Rabbinical Criminal
Code and the Jewish Trial Narratives in the Gospels" showed that the
Mishnaic regulations are largely academic and date from a time subsequent
to Jesus. Even in cases where no direct comparison can be made between the
Mishnah and all non-rabbinc sources "...the internal evidence which the
Mishnah provides is of a nature which can give us but little confidence
in
the laws as a practical working code governing the life of a nation before
or after the fall of Jerusalem." Danby concluded, "The Mishnah fails to
agree withthe earlier accounts of the Sanhedrin because the historical
Sanhedrin had ceased to exist, and the Sanhedrin which it (the Mishnah)
did know, on which it based its description, was a purely academic
institution, having purely academic powers and purely academic interests."
(Quoted in the EXECUTION OF JESUS, William R. Wilson.) He also quotes
another interesting theory, that perhaps the Sanhedrin at the time went
under harsher rules of Sadducean law, and not the milder and more
enlightened rules of Pharisaic laws, which were eventually codified into
the Mishnah. That was J. Blinzer's theory.
In all fairness, I need to say that Wilson is of the OPINION that some
of the laws were in effect, and that HIS theory is that Mark (and Matthew,
which is based on it) are wrong in assigning an actual trial by the
Sanhedrin for Jesus, at night. That Luke and John's accounts, which only
mention an inquiry by the Jewish high priest and co, were the correct ones.
That there was a brief Jewish inquiry, not a full fledged trial for
blasphemy, and that they then turned Jesus over to Pilate on charges of
treason, for claiming to be Christ...i.e., King...of the Jews. With that
qualifier, most of the rest of the Gospel accounts of the betrayal, trial,
and execution of Jesus he accepts. He notes reasons for thinking the
Sanhedrin could not use capitol punishment, and quotes the documents.
By eliminating the nighttime trial, he removes all the legal difficulties
and notes that there is much more agreement in the Gospels concerning the
betrayal, trial and execution of Jesus than any other part of the Bible.
He also mentions several times where Jewish authorities and Jews defied
their own rules and acted, more or less, like a lynch mob. Not even
counting the death of James in Josephus by stoning, there was similar
lynch-justice in the Jewish enclave in Alexandria. Philo recorded several
instances where Alexandrian Jews killed killed their fellow countrymen for
crimes against the Jewish religious laws, instead of turning them over to
the Roman authorities, as they were required to do...and in those cases,
the Roman authorities seemed to wink at it. So I think there is enough
room for doubt to wonder (A) the result of using third-century legal
standards (the Mishnah) on the first century Sanhedrin might be wrong,
that standards might have changed since then or (B) if they followed a
different legal standard under the Sadducean high priest or (C) they were
eager enough for Jesus' death to "bend" the law and do a kangaroo court.
DC> I've had a few books on order for over 2 years now. There are at
DC> least 2 copies of one of them and it has never made an appearance
DC> into the local system they both came out of.
Go to the main library in your area, and check about area resources. if
some other library has it, they will get it for you, and all you will
have to pay is the postage on the book---usually a buck to two bucks. I
have taken advantage of that many times.
... Always ask the next question.--Sturgeon.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 04 Apr 96 04:04:00
EID:781b 20842080
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC08B4
AS> Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together. Witness the
AS> birth of the new Nazi party.
PS> Not on my watch, chummer.
AS> Cue "Preston Simpson and his Howling Commandoes..." fighting
AS> neo-nazism EVERYWHERE. I'm glad SOMEONE's doing it...
DC> You don't seem to be doing a bad job of fighting it yourself.
DC> Perhaps we should upgrade Preston from God of the Twinkies to
DC> God Preston Bucky? Before you know it, he'll make Captain and
DC> we'll have to get him a shield!
And give Grigor-Scott a Red Skull mask and Mark Craig a Baron Strucker
outfit...
... I let my mind wander once. It never came back.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 04 Apr 96 04:03:00
EID:e751 20842060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC15FC
DC> If I understand it right, his super powers have been trimmed back,
DC> yet again. I think that was the main reason I never liked his
DC> comics, nor the teamups with other DC characters, as he could
DC> do virtually everything that they could, and better/faster/etc.
DC> The other characters were nothing but faded window dressing.
I would have loved it if they had depowered him to his original
powers...which was basically the Hulk's strength and leaping prowess,
and Quicksilver's speed. Instead, they did something inbetween. Hulk's
strength, Quicksilver's speed (rather than the FTL speed of the Flash),
the super-senses, and actual flying, which they hint is some sort of
telekinesis...he evidently can lift heavier weights when flying...and his
invulnerability has been trimmed down somewhat...he can survive an atom
bomb, but it knocks him out, and he definitely wouldn't survive a dive
into the sun like he used to, nor can he move worlds. Originally he
couldn't go faster-than-light, then they upped his powers as part of a
storyline that almost proved disastrious for him, and did his powers back
to the previous level, so I don't THINK he can fly between stars anymore.
He has to hold his breath to go underwater or in space, and there are
limits to that, also.
DC> I think that my favorite DC character was Green Lantern. Though
DC> he had a lot of power, it was readily limited by the color yellow.
DC> Made him far more vulnerable than the use of the very rare Krytonite.
(Open mouth, close mouth, open mouth.) Should I tell you and spoil your
day, or shut up? Oh, well, misery loves company. Coast City was
destroyed in the storyline that brought Superman back. That drove Hal
Jordan gradually crazy, he attacked his fellow Gl Corps members, took ALL
the power out of the central power battery in Oa, killing one good GL,
Sinestro, and all the Guardians except one. He is now a villain, out to
change time to prevent such disasters, and stealing power to do it, and
is immensely more powerful than he was before, having the power of ALL
the GLs...except one.
One Guardian survived, changed Hal's original ring, and gave it to a
new guy, a artist called Kyle Radner who is a klutz and a loser a la
Spider-Man. The ring has changed...it's no longer vulnerable to yellow.
Gone is the Corps, much of the interstellar sf, and any consistency in
Hal's character. Alas, poor Hal Jordan, I knew him well.
DC> About the only Stuporman comics I really got into were the ones
DC> with red Kryponite and the Bizzarro tales. They were actually
DC> fun to read.
Well, there is still ONE Bizarro, who has shown up twice. Gone is the
Bizarro world. There is only one piece of kryptonite, and its green,
although Myxzptlk is still around and created one piece of red kryptonite
that robbed Supes of his powers. As it stands, the question of assault rifles and other impliments
DC> of destruction were naturally never considered at the time the
DC> Second Amendment was penned.
DC> At that time, the long rifle, though far slower to load than a
DC> musket, was the far superior weapon of choice. After all, the
DC> reason for the amendment was to allow the populace the means
DC> of overthrowing the gvt should the gvt become corrupt.
DC> Yes, it was far simpler in those days. It's highly unlikely
DC> that an individual would own an F-16, let alone a B-1 bomber
DC> these days to even the odds against a gvt/military takeover.
Although guerilla movements, with simple weapons, can overthrow even
goverments these days...
DC> BTW, know of a surplus M-60A tank for sale? ;)
Sure. Didn't you KNOW? I'M the one who drove the tank through the Waco
compound that whatsisname Parker keeps talking about here.
... This universe is just a test. The real one starts soon.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A FAIR AND JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 04:05:00
EID:5201 208420a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC29D4
AS> Certainly there are times when I think we could use a
AS> spiritual checkup every so often. Where I could wish the
AS> Great Physician gave us some further medicine.
JH> The problem is there are just too many people who are too
JH> damned eager to give everyone Evangelical Enemas.
I dunno, JJ...there are a lot of people who need theological waste
expunged...
... Incorrigible punster -- Do Not Incorrige.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: PAGAN MARCH ON DC
|Date: 04 Apr 96 04:06:00
EID:a1bd 208420c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC32B2
DW>> I'm sure you're relieved to know that the Oilers are
DW>> coming to Nashville.
AS> And we're paying to have the stadium built, to boot.
JH> And you get BUD ADAMS (evil laugh).
Yeah, my mother lives in Houston, and told me some horror stories about
him...
AS> Oh, I suppose it will eventually earn us money.
JH> Really? Do you have a rodeo?
Nope. We've got country music fans. That's even better...they'll spend
money on ANYTHING.
JH> I'd really like to see US mayors (and their constituents) tell
JH> professional sports promoters to build their own damned
JH> facilities. The idea of public moneys going to support private
JH> ventures that return very little to the local economy just
JH> makes my blood boil. Yes, restaurants and hotels close to the
JH> facility do benefit some, but if the intention is to support these
JH> businesses there are far more efficient ways to do so. Unless you
JH> attract a political party's national convention or some other
JH> monster-scale event you'll never come close to breaking even.
It's coming up on a referendum, so we can veto using public funds for it.
But my guess is that it'll pass. When the best team in town is Vanderbilt
(HAH!) there are a lot of sports-starved people out there wanting
something halfway decent...no matter how disillusioned they may get
afterwards. Here in Nashville, as far as serious sports is concerned,
we're ALL virgins. But...as I said...we have a steady influx of country
music fans. Things like Fan Fair Week we get killer attendance. I can see
it paying off with the stadium. Maybe. Perhaps. I sure HOPE so...
... Necrophilia means never having to say . . . well, anything . . .
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: NEED QUOTE
|Date: 04 Apr 96 04:07:00
EID:9aec 208420e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC428E
AS> I use a paper Bible, but I go a Topical one to go
AS> with it.
JH> The KJV is in the public domain and available for ftp from a
JH> variety of sites.
Sure. My wife even got a good electronic Bible, but it took up a lot of
memory, and in some ways a book suits me better. The Topical Bible is
almost as good as a search engine. And I can use better translations (or
at least more understandable to the contemporary mind) than the King
James.
... With friends like these, who needs hallucinations?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: RADICAL-EXTREMIST-HATE G
|Date: 04 Apr 96 04:09:00
EID:7da4 20842120
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC4D74
AS> Janet Reno is in the employ of the state of Israel? Christ
AS>was Jewish.
AS> Paul was Jewish. Peter was Jewish. Mary was Jewish. David
AS>was Jewish.
AS> Nothing could be more anti-Christian that showing hate
AS>towards the people
AS> in which your Savior first presented Himself.
AS> Shalom and Mazel tof and all that. Oy vey!
MC> The Jew is the child of the Devil, and he belongs to the synagogue
MC> of Satan -- Jesus Christ (jn.8:44,rv.2:9,3:9).
"Salvation is from the Jews," said Jesus to the Samaritan woman. And in
any decent translation, it is "You are the children of the Devil"...i.e.,
talking specifically to those who were doubting His message in that
particular group.
... Mixed emotions is when your kid gets an "A" in sex class.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 04 Apr 96 02:04:00
EID:311d 20841080
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC6386
AS> Perhaps he felt that someone who only feels that Jesus is a
AS> great teacher (not saying that Spong said that, not having
AS> read him yet) and was not divine in other ways is missing
AS> much of the point. And also missing what Jesus Himself
AS> taught. But you'd have to take that up with Michael.
MB> Once again, you've made my point for me. He sees it as a question
MB> of seeing things his way, or else you're wrong. That IS my
MB> definition of a fundy. According to his definition, Lynda is a
MB> heretic, as is Spong, whether he uses that word or not. And,
MB> rather than see me go half way and accept Spong's view, he'd
MB> rather be "right," even though the act of making me "wrong" has
MB> forever condemned me to eternal...whatever. Nice, Christian
MB> fellow-traveler you've got there, Al. It never occurs to him that
MB> it might be Spong who is "right" and he who is wrong, and that
MB> he's put a roadblock in my path that makes HIM responsible for my
MB> trip to perdition. No room for HIS error. No room at all. He's a
MB> fundy, Al, pure and simple.
No, I wouldn't agree. He's said he thinks highly of Lynda's opinion,
despite their disagreements. That is not the act of someone who regards
the other as a heretic. Having read Spong's SAVING THE BIBLE FROM
FUNDAMENTALISM I can say there are some things I agree with him on
(certainly about people like Jerry Falwell and people who take things too
literally) and his Biblical knowledge concerning the OT seems to be
sound (That bit about the Yahwehistic, Eloistic, etc.) versions of the OT
is covered in more detail in the Jerusalem Bible. I'm going to have to
take back what I said about him reading C.S. Lewis...I thought I
remembered him once expressing admiration for, but if he did, he didn't
read Lewis with understanding, because he pulls a boner in saying that
the ancient mind didn't perceive that the earth was a tiny part of the
cosmos, whereas, as Lewis states quite clearly, Ptolemy knew that the
earth was a mere point compared to the distance to the stars. If Ptolemy
did not know how tiny the Earth was compared to the rest of the universe,
the difference is between the size of a germ as opposed to a quark. The
ancients knew very well that the earth was just a tiny part of Creation,
even though they thought (since that was the way it looked), that Creation
revolved around it. And I did catch him in an error about Paul...he
asserts that Paul never mentioned that his vision happened going to
Damascus...when he mentioned having the vision, going off for a while,
and then going BACK to Damascus, clearly implying he was going there the
first time.(Gal 1:13-18) But those are minor things. I certainly don't agree
with Spong on every point, but by the same token, I don't doubt that Spong
holds himself a Christian and is working for what he conceives as the
best direction of the Church. But I doubt very much that Michael took
your statement seriously. You have been outspoken in your disbelief in
God, and if He did exist, He's a hypocrite and other terms. I think if he
thought there was any chance you were serious, he might have reacted
differently.
Would you respected him more if he had given a polite lie just to
"lure" you into Christianity? I wouldn't.
... cognito ergo windows" - I think therefore icon
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 02:00:00
EID:54f6 20841000
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC6A8E
MB> Have you looked carefully at what they decided WAS moral? It
MB> differed widely from what we consider moral. Their definition
MB> was decidedly more brutal than ours.
AS> Why?
MB> Oh, little things like throwing somebody in prison for being
MB> unable to pay their debts, hanging them on racks for heresy and
MB> blasphemy....little things like that.
That's punishment, not moral standards. Oh, there was some shift, but not
as much as you might think...ask Lynda and the spiritual crisis brought
on
by the heresy trial in the Episcopal Church. If people are not jailed for
being unable to pay their debts, they nevertheless get bad credit ratings
and other reprucussions. As for blasphemy...just ask Salmon Rushdie about
that.
... C:\DOS;\SYSTEM;\UTILITIES;\DOCS;\HELP;\WHERE;\THE;\HECK;\AM_I
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: THUMB-SUCKING FUNDI
|Date: 04 Apr 96 08:03:00
EID:3956 20844060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC74C0
AS> ing women-and-children-is-a-humane-thing-to-do") know he is NOT in
AS> Kansas anymore.
JB> Maybe we should start calling him Toto (as in the Swahili meaning of
the
JB> word )
Okay. I'm going to admit total ignorance here. I know little to none
Swahili, unless what I've gleaned from watching jungle movies has a few
Swahili words...or the Lion King. What does "toto" mean in Swahili?
... Therapy is good, but screaming obsceneties is cheaper.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 02:01:00
EID:54f6 20841020
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC80BE
MB> million Jews? Al sometimes gets so carried away with his own
MB> arguments that he forgets his core beliefs (if he actually has
MB> any), and this was one of those instances.
IF HE HAS ANY????
I already apologized for flubbing up, but I'm a little offended that
you think I might not have ANY core beliefs.
Ah, well...
Oh! Pick up the latest (April 8) TIME. It has a long article about the
Jesus Seminar (cover story) and a page about Thiede---the guy who found
the papyrus of Matthew was first century...well, he's evidently
publishing a book called EYEWITNESS TO JESUS and pushing the 70 AD date
again. (Remember, Holy Smokers, you heard it from me and Marilyn
FIRST....I broke the news and you followed up, nearly a year ago.)
... As I said before, I do not repeat myself.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 04 Apr 96 02:02:00
EID:54f6 20841040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC8956
AS> Ask the Mafia. Ask most Royal Families during the Middle Ages, where
AS> the sons were waiting for the father to die, and sometimes helping
AS> the process along. I could imagine an alien race where there WAS no
AS> altruism. Where everything was done for enlightened self-interest.
MB> In order for a species to survive, it must only protect its own
MB> genes ON AVERAGE. The Mafia Don is the outlyer on one end of the
MB> picture, and nothing more. It won't work as a standard; paranoia
MB> requires each person to spend too much time watching one's backside,
MB> and not enough time actually doing the things necessary for survival
MB> of oneself and one's family (genetic code).
But animals, at least, live in a state of constant paranoia---always
looking for the next predator...and do quite well. Are you sure that it
would cause them to spend too much time, OR would it be an incentive to
develop greater and greater intelligence, because the competition is so
fierce? I can see it going either way.
AS> It's quite workable.
MB> No, it isn't. And,it shows your misunderstanding of the word
MB> "enlightened," at the very least.
What one species considers "enlightened" might not be the same as
another. I'm of course talking about a change in the very nature of man.
AS> You could have societies built along the lines of Mafia
AS> families, where rulers succeed by assasination.
MB> They also FAIL by assassination, don't forget.
Of course. I meant "succeed" in the sense of one king SUCCEEDING another.
I'm sorry I didn't make it clear.
AS> assassins would hunt the killers. Rulers would have extreme weregild
AS> on their heads, lesser people much smaller ones. Assassins would be
AS> esteemed as very useful.
MB> And where are those societies now? Gone. Precisely because they
MB> DIDN'T WORK!
??? This is a hypothetical, Marilyn. This is discussing whether a
species could be made without the altruistic impulses we have now. There
are no human societies this amoral.
AS> It would be a cross between the most cutthroat capitalism
AS> imaginable, and a Mafia family, with perhaps a hint of the
AS> Borgias...but oh yes, it would be quite workable. (I wrote
AS> several stories for my own amusement about just such a race.
MB> It works on paper, but try making it work with all the variables
MB> that exist in human beings. If it really worked, that's the
MB> society we'd be living in now. We aren't, because it doesn't work.
Certainly. Because we have altruistic impulses "built in" as it were.
That merely means we are so made to have them. It doesn't mean they are
necessary.
AS> Many foodstuffs are safe only because of Federal standards and the
AS> knowledge that we can sue the pants of them otherwise. Banks lend
AS> money on the speculation that they will get a higher return. I found
AS> little trust in the banking industry when I was younger, just profit
AS> and loss margins. In other words; enlightened self-interest. You have
AS> a point about the stop signs. But that's not the only thing that can
AS> be done. In London, the
AS> traffic lights are timed so that the flow of traffic rarely stopped.
AS> Pedestrians go underneath the streets, in walkways that look much
AS> like subway entrances.
MB> It doesn't matter that other societies choose to do things
MB> differently; the point remains, it works because it is built on
MB> trust, and trust is a viable mindset the vast majority of the
MB> time.
Good. Then you'll trust me to ALWAYS cut the cards with my deck in poker?
C'mere and sit down and we'll play a few hands...pidgeon, uh, I mean,
pretty lady.
MB> And, certainly banks are interested in the bottom line. But they
MB> could have no interest in anything that far in the future, if they
MB> could not trust.
Sure they could. Sure they do. They take an estimated risk
factor...banking officers are often told the limits...and only go after
what they feel, in the long run, are good decisions which will make money.
It's not so much they trust the individual...they trust his money making
power...or lack of it.
MB> And, foodstuffs were safe long before we had gummint inspectors;
MB> people knew what the price of betraying that trust was, and they
MB> were unwilling to pay it. The price was nearly instant bankruptcy
MB> and banishment from one's community. So, it didn't take a rocket
MB> scientist to figure out that it was better to behave in a
MB> trustworthy manner.
Or to run a patent medicine show, and go from town to town,
outrunning the inevitable complaints when they discover their product
does nothing...
MB> Those are individual variances, and, as such, they prove nothing.
MB> We also have people who apparently thrive on pain, but I have a
MB> difficult time imagining a whole society of people so constructed.
AS> Why not? Now there's an idea...a race that is totally masochistic.
AS> Thanks, Marilyn. Let me think how such a society would be
AS> constructed...rewards would have to painful. It would be like the
AS> Puritan work ethic only MORE so. If there isn't "blood, sweat and
AS> tears" it isn't satisfying. The most cruel thing you could do in such
MB> Sometimes I think your imagination gets the better of your common
MB> sense. Since most people don't "get off" on pain, it would never
MB> work. Our will to survive is much too firmly established.
OURS. Of course, since altruism is built in. But a race that is naturally
masochistic...ohhh, the story possibilties. Would they deliberately try
to
lose wars? Now how would that happen evolutionary...
Common sense? What's that?
PS. NEVER broach the idea of an interesting alternative race to a
science fiction fan.
... There IS intelligent life in the universe. It ignores us.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ROB'S VARIOUS REPLIES
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:06:00
EID:5378 208400c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BC925C
AS> Or...and here's another tack...if one's mind is
AS> determined by physical laws and processes, then, by
AS> definition, there is no reason to trust the reason
AS> the mind produces. As a mere byproduct of natural
AS> processes,
AS> IF your view is right, and our reason
AS> is nothing but the product of natural lawm, then it
AS> is merely a Skinnerian box with no real reason...to
AS> trust our reason.
RB> If our reason is suspect concerning things mundane,
RB> then wouldn't it be even less reliable concerning
RB> things extraordinary?
MH> Here Rob argues against Al's conclusion, but ignores the conditions
MH> which necessarily accompany it. If the mind is a product of natural
MH> forces, Al argues, it can't be trusted to reason correctly. If we are
MH> to trust our reason, we should consider it the product of intelligent
MH> design.
I liked an example I just read..."It is as if a disciple of Sigmund Freud
were to explain his master's theory of the Oedipus complex as a product
of
Freud's own unconscious wish to murder his father and marry his mother.
The theory couldstill conceivably be true of men in general, because Freud
might just happen to be like others in this peculiar respect, but we would
certaily not rely on Freud's authority to establish the point." (REASON
IN
THE BALANCE, by Philip Johnson. I don't agree with him about evolution,
but like THE BIG BANG NEVER HAPPENED, it is a stimulating and intersting
book challenging my own viewpoints.)
MH> Rob suggests that if we can't trust it regarding the ordinary, then
we
MH> surely can't trust it regarding the extraordinary. I think Al would
MH> agree with that, IF we assume that the mind is simply the
MH> accidental result of evolution. However, Al doesn't grant that
MH> assumption, and so Rob's conclusion isn't relevant.
I at least raise the possibility. However, the repeated inferences in turn
coming to the same conclusion every time, which can sometimes be verified
by experiment, is a strong indication that reason CAN be trusted. Which
is
remarkable, almost miraculous, in itself.
EF> --------
AS> Why is believing in a Resurrection intellectually
AS> dishonest? I have never said DISBELIEVING in one is
AS> intellectually dishonest. If there is a Designer of
AS> the laws of nature, why can He not set them aside at
AS> will.
RB> There is no other comparable historical event that
RB> you would accept so readily. The event is
RB> irrevocably connected to your chosen beliefs.
RB> Therefore, THIS incredible tale is reasonable.
MH> Al has consistently supported his belief in the resurrection with the
MH> reasons he finds it plausible. As have I, and as have others. I think
MH> Al would join me in saying that if the earliest claim of Jesus's
MH> resurrection came from 800 years after his death, we'd happily count
it
MH> in with other myths as just a fanciful fable.
Check out this week's TIME (April 8th)...the cover story is about the
Jesus Seminar (and its weakenesses, and its opponents) and there is a
page devoted to Thiede's theory concerning a 70 AD copy of Matthew, which
I first reported here nearly a year ago and MArilyn dug up more
information on. I think his book, EYEWITNESS TO JESUS,should be
interesting. And since many scholars agree that the Gospel of Matthew owes
some debt to Mark, that places Mark even earlier...
MH> But that's not the case. Jesus, unique among people alleged to have
MH> performed extraordinary deeds -- especially returning from death --
is
MH> attested to by his contemporaries. That makes all the difference. I
MH> know in my case, my belief that Jesus returned from the dead comes
MH> second, AFTER the arguments. I did not first decide that I believed
it,
MH> and then search for arguments that supported the belief. I first
MH> decided that I would be WILLING to believe it if it were sufficiently
MH> supported by evidence. I found it to be so. I would not have believed
MH> it, even though willing, if the evidence were not there.
Was it WHO MOVED THE STONE that made the best case, in your opinion?
... I avoid cliches like the plague.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: THE FIRE
|Date: 04 Apr 96 02:01:00
EID:0448 20841020
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BCA26A
AS> collection of the Fu Manchu stories.
MH> Egg Drop soup ... many man eat, but fu manchu.
Are you a Si-Fan of The Fu Manchu series. (And if you never read them,you
didn't get that pun.)
AS> I lost my Niven
MH> I lost my Niven once, but a summer in Key West with a kindly woman
MH> brought it back. :)
Uh oh. Usually I can get the most awful pun, but I'm drawing a blank
here. Approaching senility, I guess. I kzinti say I'm young any more.
JH> You can buy a new computer, but you have to BUILD a library.
MH> So much for your tagline about the one in Alexandria, huh? :)
Yep. Thanks for your contribution to mine, though...the
Tolkien art book.
MH> In all seriousness, glad to hear you're recuperating.
Thanks. Getting back up to snuff.
... To know God is to worship Him.--Seneca.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:02:00
EID:71b5 20840040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BCB660
AS> Something to do with cutting off the hair of this big guy, blinding
AS> him, and setting him in the middle between two pillars. Sounds
AS> familiar, but just can't seem to put my finger on it. And why am I
AS> reminded of SAMSONite luggage?
MH> You may be lying, but if I claimed the same thing happened to me, then
MH> I'd be Delilah.
Philistine.
... I have the heart of a child. In a jar. On my desk.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: 1 GOD PLUS 1 GOD PLUS
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:04:00
EID:7365 20840080
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BCC470
MH> Jim, make up your mind. You're in, you're out, you're in, you're out,
MH> in, out, in, out ...
MH> Kinda like sex, when you think about it ... :)
I want to make something perfectly clear to both Quentin Fai and David
Rice. Holy Smoke is NOTHING like sex. (After all, we don't want to
discourage these guys so much that they stay virgins FOREVER.)
... On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 04 Apr 96 00:09:00
EID:4dec 20840120
MSGID: 1:116/19 04BCD4CE
AS> RB> There is little similarity between a 1 1/2 year old infant
AS> RB> and a 10 week old fetus.
AS> Give it 68 weeks. You'll see the similarity.
RB> Ah, but there's the rub. Abortion is a matter of timing. The window
of choice
RB> is only open a relatively short time.
Hmmm. So that makes it more acceptable?
AS> Sure. But that is true of anything. There are some books that I value
AS> more than a chimp.
RB> You'd kill a chimp before you destroyed a book? Monster!
SOME books, you betcha.
AS> Um. About the same thing acorns have to do with mighty oak trees. (I.E.,
AS> one is absolutely necessary for the other to develop.)
AS> Which would cause you more distress?.. Smashing an acorn or felling
a mighty
AS> oak tree? Which one currently has the most value?
An oak tree has more value. But I don't see why "currently" has to be the
definining criteria.
AS> Then, if you are in a coma, not cognizant of anything, have you no
more
AS> rights than a fetus?
RB> I had a 'once functioning' brain. The fetus never acquired a functioning
RB> brain.
Oho! So it's not "currently". It can be past, too. So the past and
present count...it's only the FUTURE that doesn't count. Why?
AS> Practically any criteria you think of, I can think
AS> of an exception for.
RB> Not an applicable one.
Watch me. For instance, in the two cases above, you speak of "once" and
you speak of "current" but do not accede to the "future" as having any
bearing on the matter. Very well. A child was born in a coma. A
vegetable. A very simple operation, newly discovered a week before, will
cure her and make her a fully functioning human being. Instead, I smother
the child, before she can have the operation...
Have I committed a crime? Why and why not? And make sure that any
argument I can use against it cannot be equally used against abortion.
AS> Why not just admit it is abitrary? I have long said
AS> that the abortion debate is not a thing of reason but of definition.
RB> It can be a thing of reason if it isn't clouded by religious influence
and
RB> undue emotionalism. If a fetus has no more cognition than a house plant,
then
RB> where is the misdeed in choosing to terminate it UNLESS you're influenced
by
RB> religion or misplaced emotionalism?
Why is cognition an issue? Why should it be the criteria? Especially
since that cognition WILL develop. If you murder an adult, at least they
will have experienced some cognition in their lives...if cognition is the
criteria, then you are doing much worse than murdering an adult, because
by destroying the fetus, it will never...ever...be cognitive. And it
would, in time. So, one act ends a life of cognition. Another stops one
from ever developing.
AS> you think a fetus is a human being, than abortion is murder. If you
AS> think a fetus is part of the woman's body, it can be gotten rid of
AS> easily. There is no real comprimise here, and the only hope is that
AS> someday contraception will be so good, and eugenics will be so good,
so
AS> unwanted pregnancies rarely occur, and those that do are raised in
AS> artificial wombs.
RB> Embryos should be taken from women's wombs and made to develop? I see
that as
RB> the state commandeering what should be the woman's decision.
I did not say it was mandatory. But most abortion decisions tear a woman's
heart in two. It's not an easy decision. If there was a simple way to
remove the fetus and let it grow and develop, cared for either by the
state or by charitable organizations, I think a good number would opt for
it. That way they could avoid unwanted pregnancy and not have to worry if
there are any moral issues involved in losing the baby.
AS> Very well, I withdraw the 'contempt'. But I still hold the pro-choice
AS> side is every bit as abitrary as the pro-life side.
RB> If you can show me that a first trimester fetus has any kind of real
sentience,
RB> I'll reconsider. As of now, it's more barbaric to dissect a frog than
perform
RB> a first trimester abortion.
A frog will never be anything but a frog...unless they are enchanted
princes or something. Not so a first trimester fetus. You were one once.
So was I. So was Einstein, Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Steve Hawking,
Newton, Socrates, etc.
AS> And a six-month year old is not the same as an adult. Yet both are
AS> protected equally under the law as far as the taking of the life is
AS> concerned.
RB> Here we go with the POST-natal comparisons again. A fetus is a rudimentary
RB> stage of human development, unlike ANY stage of post-natal human.
Rob, do you have any kids? Ever held a newborn? They're TINY. They don't
open their eyes, don't smile, they can barely wriggle their fingers, cry,
and suck. That's it, nada, zilch. Again, YOU were that once. As was I.
You speak of a fetus like it was a laboratory exhibit, so different from
us. But we're all different. We are all in different stages of
developement.
I think it rather wonderful that the fetus recapitulates the
evolutionary cycle, as if reaffirming our link to the tree of life.
But one must never ignore potential. And that fetus has the capacity to
perhaps become a great writer, a great scientist, or a great artist.
AS> If by my act I KEPT her from doing so, wouldn't I be? If I kept a
child
AS> locked in a closet all his life, in a foul enviorment, and then end
that
AS> life, can I argue, "Well, he lived such an awful life, he was better
off
AS> dead?"
RB> A child locked in a closet is POST-natal and has nothing to do with
fetuses.
*Sigh* can't you see how abitrary that is? Why do you feel a fetus
pre-natal is different from fetuses, post-natal? Because that's what we
all are...post-natal fetuses.
AS> Babies in the womb DO react to stimuli. It is not hard to get the
AS> baby to kick in the later stages of pregnancy. They react. They hear
AS> (which is why some newborns respond well to the sound of a mother's
AS> heartbeat, put on tape in the nursury.), etc.
RB> Late stage abortions are only performed in emergencies. Most are performed
in
RB> the first trimester when the fetus is about half the size of your little
RB> finger.
I know, Rob.
My wife once passed one.
We put it in one of the small pill cases to show to the doctor.
But when you looked at that tiny, tiny thing...it was odd. It didn't look
like a fetus.
It looked like a baby developing.
Those two terms mean the same thing. But they have a world of
difference in connotations. I saw the head, the body...like a cross between
a tadpole and a human. And yes, you saw potential.
AS> Remember, the baby will do
AS> all the things you mentioned above...UNLESS YOU STOP IT. Can I castrate
AS> my sons because they haven't (well, Jamie is going through adolescence)
AS> gone through adolescence yet? Why not? They're not using it...and
the
AS> answer is obvious. Left to time's passage, they WILL use it. Same
with
AS> ALL of the above.
RB> Jamie is fully functional and will probably be quite pissed off if you
whack
RB> his weenie. A fetus doesn't know a weenie from a beanie. You could
do
RB> anything to the fetus and it wouldn't know a thing (and that's the whole
RB> point).
Ahhh...awareness and cognition are the point? And why is that?
Especially since awareness and cognition WILL come...unless one stops
it.
AS> (Thinking about the fragmented German tribes. Of the Viking raids
on the
AS> rest of Europe. Of the darkest part of the Dark Ages.) Yep. Could
have
AS> been a LOT worse.
RB> And yet, we still see friction between Christian sects and EXTREME friction
RB> between certain monotheisms that share the same roots.
The great things are very powerful even in misuse, which is one of the
things that make them great. Freedom is a great thing...but men have
died for it many times. How much more religion, which can be
responsible for the highest highs in human existence, as well as the
lowest lows?
AS> Good theory. It's marred by the fact that most early religions do
NOT
AS> believe in a punishment in the afterlife, but that all alike go into
a
AS> misty netherworld which is worse than life.
RB> Why does that mar it? Early religions may have had more to do with
taboos
RB> (elementary things that aided survival) than rewards and punishments.
Eternal
RB> bliss and eternal damnation required a more 'sophisticated' mind.
True. early religion is packed with ritual and tabboo. I'll give you
that.
AS> Possibly. But no one has come up with a convincing alternative--if
the
AS> Biblical accounts bear no relation to reality, it became convincing
in a
AS> mere twenty years (Paul) when many witnesses to the original events
were
AS> there to confirm or deny. And if you can give me a plausible scenario
AS> that explains how MANY people can think they 'saw' something that
didn't
AS> happen, I WILL opt for door number three.
RB> ALL religions became convincing to their adherents. If humans have
RB> demonstrated anything, it's that they're more than willing to believe
RB> incredible tales involving deities.
Many have believed such tales. But relatively few have said they
witnessed them THEMSELVES. And for multiple accounts...and being willing
to die, be tortured, be imprisoned for same...why would they act so, if
they were the apostles, and it was all a lie?
RB> The possibility that MANY people (mostly illiterate fanatics) claimed
they saw
RB> something is a woefully inadequate reason to jump on the 'Jesus is God'
RB> bandwagon.
Is it? After all, would not you be more convinced than many witnesses
than one on ANY occurance?
AS> I think something must be also said for the validity of the phenomena
AS> claimed in light of the claim Jesus was making. If I say I could raise
men
AS> from the dead, you would go, "Why YOU?" But Jesus claimed equality
with
AS> God, and THEN pulled a miracle. He made a claim and then produced evidence
AS> afterwards for it.
RB> There's one major difference. If YOU claimed you could rise from the
dead, you
RB> would be met with mostly skepticism (even from avowed theists). Jesus
made his
RB> claim to SUPPORTERS. Cult members of HIS cult. These people would be
much more
RB> susceptible to a 'miracle' than a neutral or skeptical audience.
But James was an unbeliever, though he was Jesus' brother. He was
doubtless one of those who tried to claim their brother Jesus was crazy,
and get Him away. Yet James later became head of the Jerusalem Church,
and later died for that belief, according to Josephus. And interestingly
enough, Paul said James was one of the ones Jesus appeared to after the
Resurrection.
... Common sense is what tells you the world is flat.
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