God Damned Fundies!
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ZOG
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:24:10
EID:86e0 2084a300
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d34bab
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64b17f29
JH> minority. Even with moves like the Million Man March, his
JH> membership roles are probably at their peak. He can increase
JH> somewhat by turning marginal supporters into 'true believers',
JH> but that will only bring him a modest increase in numbers. He
JH> has pretty much exhausted the pool he can recruit from.
I dunno. The MMM even had some people that hated Farrakhan (like myself)
saying "This is the kind of thing that black men need to perhaps undo their
stereotype. What Louis didn't do was to capatilize more on it after the
end.
JH> But I wouldn't make the comparison to Winter or Russ Wuertz,
JH> rather I'd pair him up with Jim Jones, David Koresh and others
JH> who have looked upon their followers as a disposable commodity.
Screwballs are screwballs to me.
JH> Societies of the American Indians will probably end up by
JH> sending a number of his followers to their dooms against
JH> superior numbers.
Usually, those are relatively small numbers of individuals. I hope that
he deosn't lead the entire black race to theri ultimate demise for a principle.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Gerry Wagoner
|Sub: evidence...
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:30:12
EID:a399 2084a3c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3653f
REPLY: 1:110/725.0 89533F57
This is too good.....
GW> You've obviously never floated down the Rhine river. Or climbed
GW> Mt. Pilatus on Switzerland. Or talked to "Dinosaur Bob" from
GW> Montana... Now then.
I have. Both of them. Although I never heard of "Dino Bob".
GW> Great masses of rock are thrown up so that their original
GW> horizontal sediment layers are resting at a 45-52 degree
GW> angle..all along the Rhine River in Germany for one..
GW> Something from below burst upwards, moving the great rock
GW> layers into the position they now occpy. The Bible says "and
GW> the fountains of the deep were broken up." UP. Yes indeed.
This, my fine young fellow, is not evidence. This is (dare I say it yet
again?) a wild assed guess. You do not simply decide that wnat you wnat
to BE evidence IS evidence. I dare you to read a geology text and find
out just why the rocks were upthrust in such a manner. When our resident
geologist returns next month from Russia, you can ask him. He can tell
you. However, in the interim, why not give us some good solid scientific
data on why you might be right.
GW> There are seashells embedded in the limestone particulate on many
GW> of the highest mountains on Earth. I've seen them. Total
GW> water enscapulation is the unavoidable conclusion for their
GW> presence at 14,000'. Nough
GW> said.
Waitaminute. You were just talking about rock upthrust and now you want
to believe that every mountain on earth was covered with wqter? Which is
it, Lad?
GW> Dinosaur Bob, (who has made numerous valuable fossil discoveries
GW> -- some of which are in the Smithsonian..) told me in early
GW> 1991 that all of the fossil discoveries extant to date share
GW> one common denominator: Their heads are tilted way back and
GW> up. So? This is the classic posture of a drowning victim.
This is nonsense. Are you trying to tell us that drowning is the ONLY reason
for the death of the dinosaurs? Are you really this stupid? could you
please document this statement? Surely, somone as eminent int he field
as you suggest thta he is has some published data around in a refereed technical
journal.
GW> Consider these things, my friend.
The only thing I can consider you is a fool.
Tell me why dinosaur fossils have been found in strata with K/Ar dating
of over 65,000,000 years.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: evil
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:38:54
EID:e325 2084a4c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d36966
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89534395
AB>> Why so? Isn't Utopia a logically possible world? Utopia
AB>> is, you'll remember, a world in which everybody is
AB>> completely free. Why is this not logically possible? And
AB>> if it is, why didn't God choose that world to create?
I repeat. It is NOT impossible for the almightly to overcome this. Perfection
is perfection. Why not just admit it. It would be a lot easier.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: RONALD VASS
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:39:50
EID:73ff 2084a4e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d37368
MG>>Protacanthopterygians
RV> When you post these pearls of wisdom , and i know this is going
RV> to make more work for a busy person ,could you
RV> please split them to a packet no more then a couple of 100
RV> lines or so. The Hub i get mail from seems to cut off these
RV> post at the 200 line mark or so. When truth as we currently
RV> know it come from a Pro. such as your self ,i collect them
RV> and put them in a free file area for download ,for anyone who
RV> wants to get them.
Actually, this is a post that I have on my disk that I post from time to
time when the stupid of the stupid show up. when it was first posted, I
looked up the reference at the library at the med school where I work, just
to authenticate it. While I don't expect many to really read it all, I
post it just to demonstrate that transitional fossils are relatively abundant
and not absent like some claim.
In this case, it was posted to tome moron who I doubt caould read, much
less understand it. It was in response to his onstatn waste of bandwidth
by posting philosophical germs that no one reads.
As I post from a point, I don't have any way to set it up for freq. I might
could clean it up as a text file and give it to my bossnode and let him
do it as he does his other HOLYSMOKE files.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: woids
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:44:39
EID:79da 2084a580
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3815d
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524387
MH> It does not have to mean bird, even if that is the preferred
MH> meaning. As the collective referent for a list of seven or
MH> eight birds and one non-bird, it doesn't seem incorrect, now
MH> does it?
My point, which you deleted, was that you insisted that it meant "flying
things". This is nto the case. The preferred meaning is "bird". It looks
like a deliberate attempt to mislead us.
MG>> I don't think so. We are trying to show those that believe
MG>> every word int he bible that some of it is incorrect. Thsi
MG>> is a prime example, along with the others that we ahve
MG>> discussed.
MH> Except that this example, and the others I've seen discussed,
MH> are more indiciative of the anal retention factor of the
MH> skeptic than anything else. This example is not an error
MH> UNLESS you insist that a word MUST mean whatever is it's
MH> preferred definition, even if that's not the only
MH> definition, every time it's used, no matter the context.
I don't doubt that some of the examples cited are cases of mistaken identity.
Your claim that they meant "flying things" may be valid, although it would
seem, on the face of things, that theymeant "bird". However, there is plenty
in the bible that is wrong, such as the flood, the parting of the Red Sea,
the pillar of fire, the plages of Egyptthe flood, the parting of the Red
Sea, the talking snakes and so forth. Pi=3.0? I don't hink so.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Pascal's Wager
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:52:49
EID:7e76 2084a680
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d38a9f
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524392
MH> Then, and only then, he offers his wager. When it is offered in
MH> isolation, as it is here, it opens the door for the question of
MH> "How do you know which God it is that exists?" But when
MH> offered in its original context, that question has already
MH> been dealt with and settled.
Certainly, this would make sense to a believer. Could you give me the exact
title of the book or part of a book so I can get ahold of it?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: dating
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:59:29
EID:344d 2084a760
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3a425
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524394
MH> Two big questions! First, how radiometric decay works... There
MH> are a large number of species of atoms which have unstable
Saved to disk for Leipzig's return. There are two things on his critique
that I would address, however.
1. Differences in accumulation of 14C varies over time. The vatiations
are no calculated on a year by year basis, but in ages of many years. In
other words, climactic changes and so forth are held in account when dating
is done. A parent/daughter ratio might indicate a certain number of years
in one strata and another answer if found in a different strata. This is
aided by the fact that, as your freind points out, the rate of decay is
constant.
2. Unless I read him wrong, he seems to be claiming that these ratios are
performed on the rock strata itself. It is not. Carbon is the main atom
found in organic material. It is this which is sated giving the number
of years ago that that particular stratum was laid down.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Rob's various replies
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:05:29
EID:7dbf 2084a8a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3a995
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524395
RB>> It's hard to believe God would bother mending your
RB>> broken foot while millions of children go starving.
MH> More to the point, atheists are constantly demanding evidence.
MH> Yet here, offered someone's personal testimony -- not "a
MH> friend of a friend" -- Rob declines the opportunity to
MH> investigate it and simply dismisses it.
Does it seem likely to you that god lets millions starve and fixes this
relatively minor problem?
Atheists have tons of evidence that occurances in the bible never did occur.
There is huge amout of evidence that the laws of nature are followed and
that miracles do not happen.
What other evidence would you like us to produce?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: The Raven
|Sub: MAD COWS
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:07:44
EID:9789 2084a8e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64d3aece
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 31622922
TR> "Okay, here's what it means." [note: I called him up and
TR> asked "What is a prionic disease"; his first reaction was
TR> `That's a little bit of a way out of Constitutional law,
TR> isn't it?'] "You know how we all thought that virii were the
TR> simplest life forms? Prions may or may not be lifeforms,
TR> but they are simpler than a virus. They are made of single
TR> or double protein chains, not full DNA molecules, but chunks
TR> of them. But they act a lot like a virus."
I sent a searcher over to the library on this and haven't bothered to look
at the file sitting in my machine yet. What I read earlier this week indcates
a lot of prblems with the "prion" theory, although something does cause
the neuro disorders. More to come when I see the docs.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: quote: ROTFL!
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:13:04
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb84e
REPLY: 3:640/201.3 3162e4df
PID: FM 2.02
BJ>> Hello Sean. You sound like a very learned man, and yet
BJ>> you still don't believe in Jesus Christ.
FR> ! ROFL ! Thanks, got her! Anyone still think Brad is really a fundy?
gf> That's an oxymoron isn't it, _learned religious_ ?
Hell, there's a great deal of truth in the statement that anyone who reads
the classical Christanic mythologies once can't remain a believer. Anyone
who learns scientific method and critical thinking and _employ_ both can't
be a believer in the mythologies.
~*~ I'm a lot less judgemental than you. - Martin Goldberg
I'll be the judge of that. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: Seed
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:14:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb84f
REPLY: 3:640/201.3 3162e6d8
PID: FM 2.02
jg>> Well I lost all my message replies <50+) due to a bad cluster.
FR> To judge by your dishonesty past, I suggest that you're lying.
}:-}
gf> Incredible that these people think they're the "goodly people of God"
Oh the classical Christanic mythologies are _filled_ with "godly men."
Yes, men who rape their daughters repeatedly until they're pregnant and
then demand that they got _him_ drunk. "Godly men" who hand over their
daughters to rampaging mobs.
gf> Well I suppose I shouldn't be suprised. Anyone that can read the
gf> Bible & still believe in it obviously has something wrong with them.
The inability to reason, perhaps?
~*~ IT'S A COOKBOOK! IT'S A COOKBOOK! - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Jesse Christ Jones: Portrait of a lunatic
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:21:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb850
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2453c108
PID: FM 2.02
JESSE JONES
Tip a glance... The fundy lawyer _still_ plays pretend:
DW> Do you have any evidence that your
DW> God exists outside the imagination?
I have answered this one many, many times.
The answer is both yes and no. - jcj
Anyone wonder whether he uses such deception and truth-avoidance in the
court room? Anyone wonder whether he uses such deception with judges?
Yes. God is evidenced by human history, by our
compassion, by our noble strivings for justice
and righteousness, by the majesty of - jcj
Ah, yes. Ignore human evolution entirely and pretend that the desire for
survival to pass on our genes evidences his deity constructs. Once again
he demands that emotions are "spirits" and that disease is caused by demons.
No. *Nothing* exists outside of the imagination,
independent of our ability to perceive it. - jcj
How's _THAT_ for willful ignorance? And yet he still pretends that his
deity constructs exists.
To all Christians: He's one of yours.
~*~ If I repent anything, it will probably be my good behavior. - Marty
Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Christmas deceptions, Jesse Christ Style
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:24:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb851
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2453c109
PID: FM 2.02
MG> Why do you believe that my giving my wife a gift at
MG> the end of the year constitutes practicing religion.
MG> That one is still outstanding.
Oh, I answered that one too, you guys just
did not like the answer. - jcj
Typical lawyer. Demand that he did answer the question first off to try
to hide the fact that he hoped he wouldn't be called on it and got caught.
You give gifts because something calls you
to celebrate God's free gift of grace by joining
in the festive spirit of giving. - jcj
Saturnalia -- the festival for the god Saturn -- the lawyer wants to pretend
is paying homage to hit (Jesse's) gods. Amazing.
Christianity, thy name is delusion.
~*~ "An it harm none, nuke the fuckers 'til they glow shalt
be the whole of the Law." -- David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: No
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:25:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb852
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2453c10a
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> Let's call your bluff: -Leave.-
jcj> No.
I won't let you leave. You must _beg_ first.
~*~ Freedom of religion refers to denominations of the Christian
faith, not spreading out a rug and praying to Allah or Satan.
- James Robertson
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:27:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb853
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2453c10b
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> For what seems to be the thousandth time, why do you
SQ> stay? To combat the evil? -What- evil?
jcj> The evil manifested in the juvenile gang-bang you call an
jcj> echo conference, in which you delight in ridiculing and
jcj> belittling all people of faith.
Ah, yes. When the truth about the evil death cult that YOU joined gets
exposed here repeatedly, pretend that the hurtful truth is "ridicule" so
you don't have to face up to the hurtful truth.
Fact is, lawyer, that the Christanic death cult has been and continues to
be THE single most deadly construct ever concieved by men. And you're part
of it. YOU are in total agreement with the death cult.
~*~ They are really pro-murder forces that supports the murder of babies
against the will of the mother, before and after birth. - Raoul Newton
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:33:45
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb854
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 1b9e8d6a
PID: FM 2.02
ML> I thought you said that your "work here was done"?
js> And I was correct, sir. Now I am just having fun. Work no more.
You're only lying to yourself, Jim. You wouldn't leave because _I_ wouldn't
let you.
~*~ The constitution is not a suicide pact. - Joseph Nagarya
Sure it is, Joe. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Robins
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:40:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb855
REPLY: 1:18/73.0 8954FD25
PID: FM 2.02
>>>>DR> Evolution is ultimately from the devil,
FR> And is mathematics also "from" your "devil," David? How
FR> about geology? Paleontology? Is astronomy also "from" your "devil"
FR> deity construct, David?
dr> Of course not.
Self-debunking fundies. Gotta' love 'em.
dr> Evolution is a fairy-tale, or even a religion (!).
Evolution is a directly observed phenomena not subject to belief nor disbelief
any more than gravity is. Most Christians are fully comfortable with the
fact of evolution. Only those who don't know what evolution is and listen
to the lies of their death cult masters play pretend that evolution is "from"
their "Satan" god.
Keep up the ignorance. It only helps your intellectual superiors rise above
you.
~*~ Laws of nature only exist once observed. - Jesse Hornbacher
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Chad Osten
|Sub: Waco Rememberance: Blow up some more
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:42:43
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb856
REPLY: 1:3804/120 31627a51
PID: FM 2.02
fR> No, the Davidians deserved what they got -- fatal stupidity
fr> _should_ be fatal. It's just a damn shame that the Davidians
fr> had to take their children out with them.
co> social darwinism at it's finest.
It's too bad they don't take themselves out _BEFORE_ they breed.
~*~ HolySmoke: "A drive-by shooting on the information superhighway."
- Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:53:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb858
REPLY: 1:3819/163 31635879
PID: FM 2.02
mb> Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
FR> Try reading it once. Then get back to us with
FR> evidence that there are deities. Thanks in advance.
mb> I am about a third of the way throught it in a read it in a year plan.
Don't you think it's rather silly to read a book of mythology going in already
believing it's describing deities that you want to exist? Aren't you capable
of understanding that doing so is no different than picking up a Wonder
Woman Comic book and trying to find a reason to believe that Wonder Woman
exists?
Why not read some SCIENCE books, Mark?
~*~ Here, stand behind my Blasphemy Shield! - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:56:21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb859
REPLY: 1:3819/163 3163587A
PID: FM 2.02
PS> So what? There are multiple accounts referring to the
ps> divinity of Zeus. Does that mean he's a real god?
mb> Nope but it does not mean that his is not a real god ethier.
FR> I would guess that Preston isn't making that claim. In any
FR> event the flood mythology's origins are well understood and
FR> the physics of such an event -- were it to have happened --
FR> are also well understood. Scietific method debunk mythology
FR> every time.
mb> Well The Physics are not that well understood to me
mb> I have not looked it all up but as I understande it
mb> physics change quite alot?
No, physics don't change at all. The latent heat produced by precipitation
as described in the mythologies would easilly reach a high enough temprature
to detonate the oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere. There would be geological
evidence that such an event took place, and there would be a good explanation
on where the water came from and where it all went.
In any event, the myth's origins were taken from the Gilgamesh epic. The
Chinese would have noticed their own extermination had the legend been true.
~*~ Ssshhhh! People are discovering that you're an imbecile. - Simon Ewins
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:56:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85a
PID: FM 2.02
> UNSHAKABLE
> Read: 1 Peter 1:13-25
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and
Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once
in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers,
recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned
men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was
greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
- Adolf Hitler
~*~ God tried to kill him with a heart attack. - David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:57:04
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85b
PID: FM 2.02
> PINPOINTING PRAYER
> Read: James 5:13-18
"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read
through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last
rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out
of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific
was his fight against the Jewish poison. - Adolf Hitler
~*~ Those menacing atheists with their dangerous questions
are coming! Run for your lives! - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:57:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85c
PID: FM 2.02
> BROKEN THINGS
> Read: Exodus 30:34-36
"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I
recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that
it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the
Cross.
"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be
cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and
justice..." - Adolf Hitler
~*~ God touches brains - John Brawley
Which is why believers' brains are scrambled - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 96 13:57:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85d
PID: FM 2.02
> FINISHED!
> Read: John 19:16-30
"The teaching of the youth to appreciate the value ...
of the community, derives its strongest inner power
from the truths of Christianity. For this reason it
will always be my special duty to safeguard the right
and free development of the Christian school and the
Christian fundamentals of all education."
- Adolph Hitler, 1933
~*~ And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Screaming fish!
|Date: 05 Apr 96 14:02:29
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85e
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64d3653f
PID: FM 2.02
GW> Their heads are tilted way back and
GW> up. So? This is the classic posture of a drowning victim.
mg> This is nonsense. Are you trying to tell us that drowning is
mg> the ONLY reason for the death of the dinosaurs? Are you really
mg> this stupid?
His ignorant belief reminds me of the Creationist at the ICR cult who wrote
about a fish that died "screaming." And then pretends that it's
proof that his "global flood" actually happened.
~*~ You can't discuss Scientology because you know that L.Ron
Hubbard is a really pathetic excuse for a God. - TarlaStar
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: woids
|Date: 05 Apr 96 14:05:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300cb85f
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64d3815d
PID: FM 2.02
MH> It does not have to mean bird, even if that is the preferred
MH> meaning. As the collective referent for a list of seven or
MH> eight birds and one non-bird, it doesn't seem incorrect, now
MH> does it?
It means that the ignorant people who wrote the mythologies got it wrong.
Nothing more, nothing less. It shows that either no deity constructs were
used to edit the mythologies else said deity constructs were bumbeling idiots.
Now you just run along and pencil in your correction, buttfuck, and try
to continue to pretend that your mythologies are real.
~*~ "In Cyber-Space, no one gives a damn if you scream." - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 04 Apr 96 05:58:26
EID:a6b4 20842f40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64cb5b79
INSECTS
With what we know about the grays, and the other apparant "aliens", I was
wondering if they are what we will evolve into? Sure most people think that
these grays are "reptilian" or whatever, and others have seen things that
look like prey mantis'.
From what I can see, I'm not sure what we would evolve into, if we were
to ever solve all our problems, including the genetic problems. It almost
seems that anything that gets as far as us has to learn to master genetics
if they are able to continue their race. If a race starts from scratch,
it probably takes so many years before they can get to a certain point where
they can control, or fix the reproduction of its own race. Like our sperm
count is failing us now, and the breakdown of our genetic code, its a wonder
that we could survive another century. It seems to be snowballing.
Nevertheless, I wonder IF we were somehow able to overcome these problems,
what we would evolve into, in a million years?
Will we look like grays? What aliens that we know of, are evolved, but from
a primate, mammal type?
Personally, I think that ALL races, eventually evolve into insects. Just
like the grays, and they lack of feeling, or understanding of our feeling
and their "business as usual" attitude, It seems almost insect like. Not
to mention their appearance, and their methods of communcations. Most insects
communicate through frequencies, which is why the have their antennae etc.
However, Ultimately I think that we are evolving into a form of intelligent
insect.
Insects are the most adaptable type of lifeform there is on the planet.
They have been capable of surviving anything throughout our history. They've
been here the longest, even though the repiles have been around for a long
time too.
Would any of you like to add some input to this? What type of lifeform could
we evolve to? Beings of light? Insects? Reptiles?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: The Lipton Teaman is a False Prophet
|Date: 04 Apr 96 06:20:42
EID:4004 20843280
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64cb9731
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 316164b9
On Apr 01 17:10 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
JH>> And speaking of weird British-isms, what in the hell is
JH>> that uniform the Lipton Tea Man wears? Do they have
JH>> "teamen" over there too?
SA> Wouldn't know. I drink Red Rose, not Lipton. Lipton is
SA> False Tea Scum.
I have the benefit of having a number of asian markets nearby.
The tea that I buy, if it has any english on the packaging at
all, usually says something like:
"For result best: hot water of boiling use three minute."
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Fossil Record
|Date: 04 Apr 96 06:57:48
EID:4e8d 20843720
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64cbe47e
REPLY: 1:3615/1.11 31612390
On Apr 02 12:51 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/1.11 wrote:
DW>>> + Origin: URANTIA OUTPOST...Memphis, Tennessee, USA
JH>> This says volumes.
DW> Doesn't it, though? Susan Forbes (the orignal poster) is
DW> sort of a disciple of Sonny Gentry, the sysop of Urantia.
DW> Both of them post on THUMP_IT. See what your feud with
DW> Quarrella is causing you to miss? :)
A long distance bill?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:08:00
EID:be0c 20849100
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64d20ebf
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89544399
On Apr 03 21:57 96, Michael Hardy of 1:3625/470 wrote:
JH>> Does the Austin American-Statesman REALLY have the largest
JH>> daily circulation in Austin?
JH>> Who has the second largest daily circulation in Austin?
MH> The Austin Mexican-Statesman.
Damn you.... I'll never be able to cross the Congress Street Bridge
without recalling this message.
(The Congress Street Bridge, in addition to being home for the
largest urban bat colony in North America, is right next to the
paper's offices and plant.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
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SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 04 Apr 96 18:25:22
EID:f609 20849320
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 64d24d07
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31629c5b
On Apr 02 17:40 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
JH>> Just Greys? What about the Nazis at the South Pole (they
JH>> have
SA> Yeah; they're the ones most-oft mentioned, so .. I also
SA> have them as the Big Baddies;
I wouldn't make them the "Big Baddies". I'd see them more as
a minor inconvenience. They're a bunch of octogenarian holdouts
for a failed philosophy. So what if they have alien technology,
when you get down to it they are nothing but a private club
for cantankerous old men.
JH>> living under Mount Shasta? Or the maliciously sinister
JH>> Reptilians
SA> Atlantis? That's too far fetched, even for this fantasy
SA> scenario, I think. :)
Then you have to explain why the aliens decided to come here
NOW. It's easier (and more paranoid) to assume they have been
comeing and going about their business for millenia. The Atlanteans
would be something like neutral non-combatants. They have superior
weaponry but if left alone will spend all their time contemplating
thier navels. If you want to include any "little people" races
(elves, dwarves, fairies) ally them with the Atlanteans.
JH>> Ashtar Command (you don't want these guys as allies,
JH>> they're too stupid to be helpful. No one in their fleet
JH>> seems to know how
SA> ROFL! That'd be great; but I'd need an explanation as to
SA> how they got here in the first place.
They don't know how to navagate, even they cant explain how they
came to be anywhere. But BOY! are their chakras ever in alignment.
These are the SewAge CrystalWeenies par excelance.
They can be bribed with cheap quartz crystals.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: All
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 04 Apr 96 20:30:12
EID:c718 2084a3c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316477a3
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Did you ever wonder why Hal Lindsey was called the author of the decade,
by the New York Times - an Establishment newspaper? The man is a Zionist
stooge, and his job is to divide the Church (Catholics and Protestants).
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: better than
|Date: 02 Apr 96 0:00:00
EID:950d 20820000
MSGID: 1:280/26 85005fce
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
NS> I hope there are going to be a lot of wallet-sized prints of this.
And
NS> I'd like a bigger one for my altar, and what about t-shirts? Put all
NS> the HolySmoke Gawds together and silk screen them on t-shirts labeled
NS> God Squad or something like that! Its the American way! };)
God Squad, let's see, Ceppa could play the tall black guy, Gwen Todd (of
tit cult fame) could play the Peggy Lipton part and Preston Simpson could
be the moody, good lookin' guy.
I'll just wait in the wings as an understudy or maybe I'll start my own
series about a guy who wanders the country on a motorcycle dispensing zen
wisdom.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:22:00
EID:4d6c 2082b2c0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85005fdf
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MB> This is why I refuse to see the life on Earth as a column with two
MB> ends, but prefer the metaphore of a circle with no beginning and
MB> no end. EVERYTHING is a threat to the life of something else, and
MB> size, sentience, possession of venom, or whatever else appears to
MB> me to be immaterial to that one fact: we all are capable of
MB> dealing death to others, and there is nothing "out there" that has
MB> any opinion regarding that fact, or any "greater" or "superior
MB> right" regarding the issue.
MB>
MB> The reason I find Christers' comparing us to gnats is because the
MB> DO see an heirarchy, and their view allows us no room for a good
MB> opinion of oneself, which I view as essential to good mental
MB> health.
Unlike Christianity, naturalism claims no special species and no chosen
people. It seems that perspective would only benefit all species and all
people.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:39:00
EID:6771 2082b4e0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85005ff0
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DW> RB> The Soviet citizens are probably every bit as decent as
DW> RB> U.S. citizens. The Soviet government may have become more
DW> RB> corrupt than most.
DW>
DW> I'm not sure I can agree with that. The Soviet government just didn't
see a
DW> need to *hide* as much of its corruption as do governments that are
popular
DW> elected.
I imagine the public behavior of OUR representatives would be very different
if they weren't subject to elections and a (somewhat) objective media.
But let's address the more pressing issue, are the French the moral equal
of the USA?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 02 Apr 96 22:45:00
EID:749e 2082b5a0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006001
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
DM> RB> It's hard to believe God would bother mending your broken
DM> RB> foot while millions of children go starving.
DM>
DM> Ah, but THOSE little fuckers just don't pray right . . . .
No one can say God doesn't have tough decisions to make.
"Let's see, should I alleviate the suffering and eventual deaths of several
thousand children or should I mend Larry's broken foot? Oh what the hell,
let's go with the foot."
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aspirin: Having great ambitions
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 03 Apr 96 0:14:00
EID:03e4 208301c0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006012
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> That's a legitimate question...is smarter better? There is no way
to
AS> answer that.
A case could be made for 'higher intelligence' being nature's fuck up.
It fucks up the environment and it fucks up the 'normal' progression of
evolution. The question is, can we get smart enough fast enough, before
we completely fuck things up?
AS> But on the other hand, man is at the top of the food chain
AS> in the sense that very few predators have a chance against him, even
the
AS> largest and most massive, and that he himself is his own worst enemy,
AS> rather than any other animal. The only thing that seems capable of
AS> killing man off (granting no naturally occurring superflu) is man.
Is it coincidence that young healthy men are traditionally killed in wars?
The very segment of the population that would bloat it's numbers if they
were to stay alive? Maybe that's the ultimate government conspiracy, hmmm?
AS> I'm reminded of the Clifford Simek story in "City" where man was remade
AS> to fit into a hostile enviorment...I think Jupiter...and found the
new
AS> form so blissful that he did not want to return to his regular body.
Perhaps those who embrace religion also find a kind of bliss and they don't
want to return to reality.
AS> as a veterinarian sometimes has to give a dog shots which, are in
the
AS> dog's eyes, both painful and unnecessary, so God might have to do
AS> something to us which seems momentarily cruel yet serve a greater
good.
That just about excuses ANY cruelty God could impart, doesn't it? "I'm
going to give you stomach cancer now, but it's for a greater good."
AS> (And I must admit I would contenance any number of dead animals to
create
AS> a cure for AIDS or cancer, in the course of testing. I would not have
the
AS> suffer needless cruelty, but under certain circumstances, I would
much
AS> rather an animal suffer than a human.)
Although some humans are more deserving of suffering than some animals.
AS> RB> Of course we're not the crown of creation. The Zelphods of
AS> RB> planet Zelpha and the Gorbeons of Lergon BOTH make us look
AS> RB> like dung beetles.
AS>
AS> I daresay we of Gallifrey surpass even them...OOOPPSS!!!! (uh oh.)
AS> Pay no attention to what I was saying, and I agree completely.
AS> (SUUURE I do.)
Your complexion isn't a little on the grey side, is it?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Acute: Opposite of a ugly
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 03 Apr 96 0:31:00
EID:03e4 208303e0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006023
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> Well, quite frankly, you see a lot of theists HERE that exhibit no
racism,
AS> no sexism, and little militarism. And you see nontheists that do, like
Jim
AS> Lammon used to.
Lammon is neither theist or nontheist. He's a dickhead.
AS> As for historical examples...there have been fewer
AS> atheists than nonatheists, but certainly Napoleon didn't believe.
I was speaking of contemporary examples, not historical. The improved racial
and sexual tolerance we often see today is the result of political liberalism
and progressive thinking. The same is true for a less aggressive stance
toward other nations. 'Some' theists have gone along for the ride.
AS> However, you are right, in that the proponents of such have been,
more
AS> often than not, theists. That is because the majority of people are
AS> theists, and have been for centuries. If say 5 per cent of theists
and
AS> nontheists exhibit such qualities, there will be more theists who exhibit
AS> such than nontheists.
It would be interesting to know what 'percentage' of current theists and
nontheists exhibit no (or little) racism and sexism. Of course, MY money
would be on the home team.
AS> Nevertheless, I think religion can have a beneficial effect much
of
AS> the time, while acknowledging such obvious exceptions as Torquemada.
The question of believing in something that has an arbitrary beneficial
effect is an entirely different one than 'does that belief have any basis
in reality'? It seems the latter should take precedence over the former.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Working Stiffs
|Date: 03 Apr 96 22:42:00
EID:9c99 2083b540
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006034
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
SA> The funny thing is, corporations are the biggest takers of public
SA> monies, and get all sorts of tax breaks and deals on utilities and
SA> such for opening up locally. Then what do they do? They hire
SA> lots of people, but then lay a good half of them off a year or two
SA> later, sending people back to UIC or social services, in the name
SA> of more profits for the CEO and other middle-to-upper management
SA> types.
The trend in the U.S. is to hire more part-time workers, with greatly reduced
or non-existent benefits. Something seems askew when workforces are being
downsized and wages are being frozen, yet upper management is making huge
salaries. I read somewhere that Japanese executives are limited to 3 times
the salary of the lowliest worker in the company. Don't know if that's
true, but it's not a bad idea.
Profit-sharing is a great idea. Every worker who begins employment with
a company should immediately be made a shareholder. Then, they have a vested
interest in the success of the company.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ARGUMENTS
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:06:00
EID:aead 2083b8c0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006045
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> (As we all have faith in some
AS> things...scientists have faith that the laws of nature do not change
from
AS> place to place, for instance....i.e., you cannot prove the same laws
of
AS> physics hold in a distant galaxy as it does here, but one makes that
AS> assumption, and science is loaded with such faith. But they are called
AS> "axioms" in math and science. But they are matters of faith, nonetheless.)
An axiom is a far different matter than religious faith. To assume certain
conditions are consistent (until shown otherwise) is very different than
granting properties to unseen elements of the universe that are wildly
inconsistent with observed reality.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Bachelor: One who's footloose and fiancee free
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 03 Apr 96 23:19:00
EID:3524 2083ba60
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006056
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MG> There has been an influx of Russian scientists here at the medical school.
MG> One works in our lab. Due tot he near fanatical anti russian bigotry
of my
MG> boss (he took her on as a favor to another facutly member) she has remained
MG> pushed down tot he level of a brain dead street sweeoer. She has over
20 y
MG> experience in molecualr biology. Her English is much better. She has
prod
MG> a huge amount of work. The same is true everywhere. I have met Russian
MG> engineers, teachers and other professionals doing things like bagging
MG> groceries. To believe that the people of Russia are out to get us is
nonse
MG> It's just antoher excuse to hate those a bit different from yourself.
Us versus Them. Whether it be sexual, racial or political, it's a recurring
theme in human nature. I would have thought a place of higher education
would have been less prone to such bigotry. Sad
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 04 Apr 96 23:23:00
EID:441c 2084bae0
MSGID: 1:280/26 85006067
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> RB> Then, what is that business about 'coming to him as a little
AS> RB> child'? That doesn't imply maturity, independence or thinking.
AS>
AS> Consistency is the hobgoblin of small dogmas. Well, you have to
come
AS> to God with the trusting acceptance of a lesser being for a Greater,
a
AS> trust in the beneficience yet authority of the greater being. I think
AS> that is part of the coming to Him as a little child...not trying to
be
AS> equal to God.
Though I'm no student (or fan, obviously) of the bible, I always took that
to mean 'come to him as a trusting innocent'. Faith practically demands
trusting innocence.
AS> In Hebrews 5:14 it speaks of spiritual "food",as opposed to
AS> those who cannot absorb the doctrine of righteousness as a baby cannot
AS> absorb anything but milk. "Solid food is for mature men with minds
AS> trained by practice to distinguish between good and bad." We are also
AS> commanded to be as "wise as serpents".
Doesn't that 'wise as serpents' part go on to say 'so you can detect false
prophets'? The wisdom isn't for discerning the reality of God but for exposing
those who don't toe the party line.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Bachelor: One who's footloose and fiancee free
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:03:31
EID:1093 20836860
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3162af50
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31611eb1
Lynda Bustilloz said "[1/2] Losing the Labels" to All,
adding:
LB> I expect there will be those here who will crow that they KNEW I
LB> wasn't a True Christian, and be very relieved not to have to deal with
LB> me on their "team". There will also be those who read this with sorrow
LB> (Al, I am deeply sorry for that). There will be some who claim it as
LB> a "kill" and perhaps do a little victory dance, and I hope there will
LB> be a few who realize that while this is no occasion for rejoicing, it
LB> does not mean that I have changed in regards to who I am -- just in
LB> what I call myself. And of course there will be many who simply don't
LB> care.
Some of us WOAs have spoken, from time to time, about
the comforts of religion as something not available to us; I
am sorry you have lost those comforts. I doubt that the
loss, however, will make you an ardent immoralist (to the
joy of the rabid fundies) or a trophy convert on the wall of
some rabid WOA. Most likely you shall remain yourself, which
is a good thing to be whatever the external label.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:03:32
EID:9207 20836860
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3162af51
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 1451ffb3
Rob Burcham said "Our Daily Bread" to George Mooth,
adding:
GM> Man gropes his way through life's dark maze,
GM> To gods unknown he lifts his praise;
GM> But when he seeks to know God's Son,
GM> He finds in Him the Living One.
GM> -Dennis J. De Haan
RB>
RB> The woman is groped and pinched by flirts,
RB> To men unknown she lifts her skirts;
RB> But when she seeks the thing to lick,
RB> She finds in her a Real Big Dick.
RB> -Rob J. De Burcham
The Christian groping to convert
Does his faith a world of hurt
His `Daily Bread' without the ham,
Clogs the Echo with tainted Spam.
-Don J. De Martin
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 04 Apr 96 01:46:16
EID:9e77 20840dc0
> At any rate, I don't think this will make much difference in the
> quality or style of my posts, or in what issues catch my attention. I
> hope it will not change anything in regards to who I consider friend.
> But I have tried where possible to be honest, even in this echo where
> honesty is a landmine for the unwary, and I cannot in good conscience
> be pointed to as an example of Christianity, when Christianity has made
> it so clear that it does not want my kind within its ranks.
> Lynda Bustilloz, March 18
good thing your repost wasn't dated 01 Apr 96 or many would have just skipped
to the bottom to look for the "April Fools" exclamation.
do you have any idea how many sects of the monotheist cult collectively
known as 'Christianity' there are? why are you trying to live up to someone
elses ideals?
if you say you are a Christian, then that's what you are and anyone who
sez otherwise is a dodo. it is axiomatic that finger-pointer monotheists
are always wrong about others. blow them off.
it's one thing to have doubts about your chosen superstition and come to
some rational analysis internally. that's called growing up. only children
need parents for protection and guidance. it another thing altogether to
let some self-serving righteousness monger without a clue to real responsibility
dissuade you with a bigger hammer.
if you have convictions don't take a back seat. stick up for them if they
are worth sticking up for in the final analysis. if not, live in the now
and be happy.
just remember you don't need superstition to make your life work. it often
gets in the way. you don't need superstition to be a good person and to
do good works. just do them for their own sake. the so-called 'Christians'
did not invent the 'golden rule' despite their claims to the contrary.
take it from an atheist. they're your most honest 'souls'. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2300sl/001027
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian...
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:63b9 20827480
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: "No True
Chris EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Martin Goldberg:
> MG> There is no such thing as a true christian. It's a matter of opi
> MG> what a true christian is.
>
> Yes and no. Yes it is a matter of opinion. But if you take the teachin
> of Jesus Christs and then hold them up as an example of true christian
> then compare the those teachings with the actions of people who call
> themselves christians, you can make a distinction of whether or not th
> people are christians in terms of your understanding of the teachings
> Jesus Christ.
EF> Except this here, (regarding your changing around the words of Luke
EF> 14:26 I think):
I am not a bible "quoter", I am a concept presenter. I try to understand
the concept presented, rather than just understanding the literal words.
> JG>Whoever comes to me and does not (be unwilling to obey the teachin
> JG>hisfather and mother.....and even life itself, cannot be my discip
>
> KS> Bullshit. You are doing the fundy shuffle and are badly slipping
> KS> in your own excrement.
>
JG> You can choose to believe whatever you want. I choose to believe that
> definition is closer to what was meant by the word hate in the context
> of that particular verse.
EF> You CHOOSE to believe that definition.
EXACTLY ! And that is what our entire life consists of, what we
CHOOSE to believe. These choices may be based on various reasonings.
I do try to present what kind of logical thinking makes me choose
these beliefs. If you ask me I will try to explain to you why I
believe things and it is never "just because the bible says so".
EF> Latter you say you take the teachings of Jesus "and then hold them up
EF> as an example of *true* christianity ..."
EF> But where do you get your information about what a true Christian is?
EF> Your only source for that is the Bible. And about the Bible you say:
No the bible is NOT my source. The bible is more like a history book.
GOD is my source. The bible merely expresses concepts I see in everyday
life. The parables of Jesus were of everyday occurences bacck then that
showed the REALITY of such concepts as "you reap what you sow". This
is a spiritual LAW, nand Jesus teachings merely pointed out these
universal eternal spiritual laws, that can be equated to our physical
laws, like the law of gravity.
JG> " How will you be determining what is "fact" except by
JG> the interpretation in ENGLISH of what was written in
JG> another language by an individual of different culture
JG> both in location AND in time?"
EF> You admit you can't know what is the "true" meaning of the Bible:
I did not say you cannot know what the "true" meaning of the Bible
is. The fact is though that you can "misinterpret" the ture meaning.
For example as a person I may say "I love you " Meaning it sarcastically,
But you could interpret just the words as I love you as meaning that
I really do love you. Only I can tell you what those words really meant,
because I wrote them. SO too only GOD can tell us what the words in the
bible mean. I cant tell you, I can only say how God the spirit tells
me what they mean, in as much as I myself am able to accept the truth
of those words. As a man I too have realities and truths that I would
sooner not face because of my pride, greed, or any other such vice.
And even God can only "convict" our conscious of those vices, as much
as we are willing to allow him. It is called "denial" in psychological
terms :-)
JG> "We have enough trouble just interpretting correctly
JG> what we say to each other right here in this echo. It
JG> is my opinion it would be almost impossible to be sure
JG> that any interpretation is FACTual or accurate given
JG> the language, cultural, time, and interpretation
JG> factors."
EF> "Almost impossible" to know, you say. Well Jim, then how do you intend
EF> to know for certain, " whether or not the people are christians "in
EF> terms of your understanding of the teachings?"
Because as Jesus said the truth is within you, or not depending on
your willingness to accept it. Atheists and Fundys are continually
accusing each other of denying reality, or the truth.
JG> "THEREFORE what I try to do is make a mental picture of
JG> the idea being expressed. And then apply it to a
JG> general principle that I can recognize and understand.
EF> You form a mental picture of the idea being _EXPRESSED_. That
EF> expression of that idea can only come from the WORDS, Jim. But you
say
EF> the words aren't to be trusted - yet your mental picture stands one
EF> interpretation further removed then even the words!
You are quite correct as John says in the beginning Was the WORD and
The word was with god and the WORD WAS GOD ! And the word became flesh
and dwelt among men. But the actual WORD is not what is written down
on paper, it is the INTENT behind those words, and while the intent
can be denied or misinterpreted, the TRUTH will still remain even if
we choose not to acknowledge it. The actual WORDS are not the only
place ideas come from. Faith without WORKS is dead. Ideas without
practical applpications are worthless. So ideas are more than just words,
in FACT ideas are the REALITY and words are our ineffective way of trying
to pass that reality on to another person. Telepathy would be much better.
But then our TRUE motives might be laid bare and how many of us would like
that to happen ? So THERE is a fanatatic reason to avoid God, because we
are naked in the spiritual world, so we stick to this physical world
where we can mask our evilness by manipulating words.
EF> Therefore you have no way of knowing if your intrepretation is better
EF> or worse than any other intrepretation and have NO BASIS by which to
EF> judge what is "True" Christianity.
Of course. I have always said that I cannot judge another person motives
for his actions and whether or not His God approves. BUT I have my own
relationship with God and God may be telling me that is not an appropriate
behavoir. I will choose my own perception of god over anyone elses, because
that is where I personally have to answer to god.
It is like children. The parent asks "Why did you do that ?" The child
replies "Because Sally's mom lets her do it".
That doesn't cut it with God either.
JG> The unfair part is to judge the teachings of Christ, by
JG> the interpretation or actions of the people who claim
JG> to be following those teachings.
JG>
JG> You should judge the teachings by your own personal
JG> interpretation of those teachings, not based on someone
JG> elses interpretations of those teachings.
EF> So there is no one "true" Christianity then?
Where the one "true" Christianity comes in, is when all the Christians
within a group agree on that Christianity. I had the priviledge of
belong to such a group in the late 1960's in Billings Montana. The
First Methodist Church I believe. There was a unity and oneness that
I had never experienced before, and have never experienced since.
JG> And even more importantly you should not group all
JG> people who say they believe in the teachings of Jesus
JG> Christ, because some of those people may be people who
JG> bomb abortion clinics, while others of those christians
JG> may be people who abhor such actions. They are not all
JG> the same.
EF> Aren't abortion clinic bombers judging the teachings by their own
EF> personal interpretation of those teachings? Didn't you say they
EF> SHOULDN'T based it on someone elses interpretations of those
EF> teachings?
Of course and that is why I would not dare to judge them. But my belief
is that they have a faulty perception of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
That is my personal opinion. But I also believe that sin in God's eyes
is no worse than say the sin of gluttony. It is people who say murder
is such a more terrible sin than gluttony. But I think in gods eyes,
it is like trying to say there is a difference in 2 small dots on
a clean sheet. With a micrometer you could see the difference in size,
but in terms of perfect righteousness, you could not see much of a
difference between gluttony and murder.
... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:16
EID:e6f7 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about "No True Christian..
DW> As a public service, I have once again quoted the text that you claim
DW> changes the meaning of the phrase "God is limited".
DW> Here is the first sentence:
>God is limited in his ability to
>help his messengers by those who hear the message and respond.
DW> Hmmm... it seems by requoting just the first three words, I actually
DW> made things easier for you. Looking at that sentence, you not only
DW> state that God is limited, but that limits are placed on him by us
DW> lowly mortals. That doesn't sound very omnipotent to me.
Thank you very much, and now I again point out that the actual limitation
is based on MANS inability, not Gods inability. So while god is limited
in what he can do for man, the inability lies within man, not God.
DW> Here is the rest of the paragraph:
> When a person buys a book, goes to a comedy club, a show, watches
> tv goes to school They PAY for that "entertainment" and
> "education". If they buy a bible or go to church or religious
> crusade or watch a religious show, these things also cost money.
> But instead of being supported by advertising for entertainment
> which comes out of your pocket everytime you buy a product, or by
> taxes for education which comes out of your pocket every payday ,
> religious entertainment and education are paid for directly by the
> people who partake in them. So the next time you watch a religious
> tv show, consider paying for the entertainment. Send a donation.
DW> Hmmm... I see nothing there that changes the meaning of the portion
I
DW> quoted. Are you going to admit to your blatant lies about me now, or
DW> are we going to have to go through this again?
Let's go through it again. God ALLOWS us to have freedom of choice. God
politely ASKS us to love one another. We are free to not do so. Now if
God speaks to me and says send $100 dollars to support this religious show
that you have enjoyed this evening, and I choose not to. Then God is
limited in his ability to reach more people and tell them about the
gift of life available through accepting Jesus.
If I God tells me to LOVE my enemy, and I choose to take up arms in
a crusade instead, then I have limited God in presenting his message
of love to the world. If you refuse to believe God, then you have limited
him in his ability to help you with the good advice he gives you.
DW> Are you going to admit your error, Jim, or will you dishonestly
DW> attempt to obfuscate the issue once again? (That word *is* in the
DW> dictionary, btw. Look it up. At least try to learn *something* from
DW> your stay here.)
I think that you will see that my explanation CLARIFIES the issue rather
than obfuscates it. Are you going to refuse to try and comprehend the
explanation in order to hide from the truth and reality of it?
DW> I noticed you patting Germy on the back on this issue, Michael Hardy.
DW> Maybe *you* can show me how the context changes the meaning of the
DW> portion I quoted? Or were you completely full of shit once again,
DW> Knee-Jerk?
DW> Could someone forward this to Mikey please? Thanks.
It seems Michael is a bit better at comprehension than you are.
... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:a18c 208369a0
this is what Lynda Bustilloz had to say to Jim Germiquet about "No True
Christian LB> J.J. and Jim were killing time yakking about "No True Christian...":
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Preston Simpson <=-
JH> On Mar 22 15:39 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
JH> And my favorite: he called the Samaritan woman a bitch.
JG> I certainly don't remember Jesus calling a Samaritan woman a
JG> female dog. Perhaps once again you have mistranslated or taken
JG> his words out of context as usual.
LB> You are correct. It was a Canaanite woman:
LB> A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord,
LB> Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from
LB> demon possession."
LB> Jesus answered not a word. So his disciples came to him and urged
LB> him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
LB> He answered. "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
LB> The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
LB> He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it
LB> to their dogs."
LB> "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall
LB> from their master's table."
LB> Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have faith! Your request is granted."
LB> And her daughter was healed that very hour.
Jesus did NOT call her a bitch. Jesus was using a parable to explain his
purpose. His purpose was first to bring the Jewish Nation who worshipped
God,
back to God. It was not to work miracles for people who did not believe
in
God. People who REFUSE to believe in God, can hardly expect to be healed
by him now can they ?
However, he noted that this woman had FAITH in the mercy of Jesus, and
in the ability of him to heal her. It was to this FAITH that Jesus contibutes
the healing of the woman. There is Power in Faith.
Even when Moses was confronted with the prophets of Baal, there was no
denying the power of the faith of those prophets. But remember where their
faith started the fire of dry wood, Moses faith started the fire of soaking
wet wood. Where their faith turned their rods to snakes, Moses rod not
only turned into a snake, it ATE their snakes. And of coarse there was
the trick with turning the water red which again the faith of Moses
outclassed.
So while this woman was healed by her faith, it was not faith in God and
Jesus came to save those who had faith in God, because this healing is
true healing. If the woman did not turn to believing in God, then she
would be no better off in the future.
LB> Matthew 15:21-28
LB> You know, I suppose you might say it was a good thing she was a
LB> "bitch", and not inclined to be quiet and accept in submission the word
LB> of males -- even Jesus -- because if she had, she wouldn't have gotten
LB> what she wanted.
Go back and read it again. God did not call her a "bitch".
In your opinion. In my opinion he was just illustrating a point.
Sort of like if a person is given an opportunity to buy into a real
good business deal, you can present all the data and ask the person
to sign on the dotted line, but it is his choice. You may then say.
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
It doesn't mean you are calling the person a horse, you are just
illustrating a principle.
LB> "He who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed
LB> by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in
LB> loving himself better than all."
LB> [Samuel Taylor Coleridge]
I LIKE THAT ! :-)
But let me clarify it by saying this. I refer to THAT kind of christianity
as churchiology , but for me "real" christianity mean loving the truth
because Jesus said "I am the way the TRUTH and the life".
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:19
EID:90d0 208369a0
this is what J.j. Hitt had to say to Jim Germiquet about "No True Christian..."..
JH> On Mar 27 14:59 96, Jim Germiquet of 1:250/618 wrote:
PS>> Jesus beat some people in a temple. Jesus said that he'd
PS>> come to bring a sword, not peace. Jesus cursed a fig tree,
PS>> for crying out loud. Do these look like the actions of a
PS>> nice guy?
JH>> And my favorite: he called the Samaritan woman a bitch.
JG> I certainly don't remember Jesus calling a Samaritan woman
JG> a female dog.
JH> MATTHEW
JH>
JH> 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
JH> 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the
JH> children's bread, and cast [it] to dogs.
JG> Perhaps once again you have mistranslated or
JG> taken his words out of context as usual.
JH> Where do you get the "once again" crap, Germy?
JH> Do you have ANY evidence that I have ever done this?
JH> Don't claim the above is out of context, because it plainly and
JH> simply aint. Jesus does change his mind in the next verse, but
JH> his initial reaction to her plea was to call her a dog (in a
JH> contemporary context this is equivalent to calling her a bitch).
JH> Wiggle, squirm and lie all you want. It's in the Bible in black
JH> and white.
In a previous message I have pointed out your "distortion".
In brief....
If I offer a person a great deal and he chooses not to accept it, I
might say "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink".
This is NOT calling the person a horse, it is merely illustrating a
princple or concept !!!!
So of course it simply WAS taking it out of context.In my opinion.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Lou Dripkin
|Sub: Re: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:18
EID:a4e7 208369a0
this is what Lou Dripkin had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: 1 god plus
1 god p NS>> Millions of kids believe in Santa Claus. That doesn't mean
NS>> he's real (Sorry to tell you if you didn't know.) It
NS>> doesn't matter how many people believe in something, that
NS>> doesn't make it real.
JG>
JG> But Santa Claus DOES exist. I see him in malls, and in tv shows.
JG> Maybe he isnt a specific individual that rides through the skies
JG> in a sleigh pulled by 8 tiny reindeer. But he certainly exists in
JG> the hearts and minds of millions of people.
LD> This is an ignornt answer. When cornered, it's not wise to mke a joke
LD> of it. Everyone can see that you have no answer to this. The analogy
LD> between Santa Claus and his non corporeal state and your god stands.
I noticed that you left out the reference to "Yes Virginia there is
a Santa Claus". Why ? Does the sentiment and logic of that very famous
letter hit to close to the TRUTH that you are so afraid of ? That there
really is a SPIRIT OF GOD !!!
This is no joke ! And reality consist of more than just what you can
throw under a microscope or into a test tube !!!
... Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your taglines!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:19
EID:ae05 208369a0
this is what Marilyn Burge had to say to Jim Germiquet about A Fair & Just
God... MB> On (27 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to David Johnston <=-
MB> not learning the single most valuable lesson we can learn as
MB> human beings: that other people hurt just like we do, and
MB> have an equal desire to avoid being hurt.
JG> I really have to agree with you there. However I believe
JG> there are a few people out there who are violent and are just
JG> looking for someone who's head they can take off. Especially
JG> those people who murder or beat people in the commission of a
JG> crime when the person has co-operated fully with them.
MB> Basing one's ethics on statistical outlyers sounds a bit paranoid
MB> to me. I try to avoid paranoia; it isn't a very comfortable frame
MB> of mind.
Oh. Okay, I misread your message to say "other people have an
equal desire to avoid hurting others" , I dont know why...but now that
I have examined what you said I can understand it more clearly. yes I
suppose, the desire to avoid being hurt would make some people put
on a coat of insensitvity or power as a sheild.
But I still am not quite sure what your reply means and was wondering
if you could rephrase it in a simpler way that I can understand ?
Thanx.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:62fb 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about A LITTLE HELP
FROM S DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>>> Let me try that with YOUR message up there
DW>>> your opinion more valid.
DW> Remember this? It becomes important later on.
DM>>> Notice that in Dave's redaction, he left a complete
DM>>> independent
DM>>> clause: subject -- verb -- predicate adjective: it is capable of
DM>>> standing alone as a basic unit of discourse. Your attempt with
DM>>> his contains no verb and therefore not an independent clause nor
DM>>> much of anything else. With such linguistic incompetence, you
DM>>> show a great deal of sheer, putrescent gall when you accuse
DM>>> anyone else of making your stuff meaningless.
JG>> I grow weary of these word games,
DW>> Only because you realize you are seriously outgunned. But then,
DW>> you must be used to being outgunned in contests requiring
DW>> intelligence.
JG> I came here to discuss religion, not grammar .
DW> Then why did you start the grammar discussion by trying to present
DW> "your opinion more valid" as a complete quote from me?
At no time did I try to present it as such. I was pointing out that
by taking only the words from a message that YOU want to, you can
distort the true intent or meaning or context of those words greatly.
At no time did I intend for people to think you had said that, and the
WORDING of the "Let me try that with your message up there" SHOWS that
I had taken those words out of context.
JG> Why dont you start up a grammar netmail base to play your word
JG> games?
DW> Why did you start the "word games" if you dislike them so much?
I didn't start the word games. I am using words to try to clarify
what I mean if there are questions or misunderstandings. I don't
deliberately take words out of context, or make fun of a point because
I am unable to answer it. As noted I made it obvious that the quote
was taken out of context, and if I make a joke it is for the humor
value in it and not to avoid addressing the issue .
DW>> WOuldn't it be easier to simply admit that your altered my
DW>> quote into something that made no sense whatsoever and I only
DW>> relieved your quote of some excess verbiage?
JG> That "so called" excess verbage is what gives meaning to the context
JG> of the phrase.
DW> I requoted the context that you claim changes the meaning of
your
You do a lot of laughing, to bad you can't be more sincere.
DW> statement that "God is limited". All of us saw that you were *lying*,
DW> Jim. Would you like for me to quote it back to you yet again? Nothing
And I believe I adequately explained how the "limit" was not because
of an inability of god, but an inability of man. And actually it is
not an "inability" of man but simply a "refusal".
DW> in that context changed the meaning of the portion I quoted. Why must
DW> you continue to *lie* about this topic? Don't you know that your God
DW> considers lying to be a sin? Why not be a man and admit your mistake?
My only "mistake" was in assuming you were capable of comprehending the
context of the words. Now the question is, after a more thorough
explanation of the context, are you still going to deny that you
understand it.
DW>> Run and hide, li'l fundy.
JG> Not really, the only reason I twit them is that I don't want to waste
JG> my time writing messages to people who really are not interested in
JG> the concepts within those messages,
DW> Then why threaten people with it, as you did above? Are you lying
DW> *again*, Jim? Just twit them and go on about your business.
First of all I did Twit them. Then I changed my mail reader and at that
time changed my mind. I believe there are some people in this echo
who appreciate my reasoning and may gain some insight into my idea
of god and spirituality , just as I gain insight by reading their ideas
of god and spirituality.
JG> but merely want to find something
JG> in them to ridicule.
DW> We don't have to look very hard to find something to ridicule in your
DW> messages. If you don't like being ridiculed, maybe you should try to
DW> not make so many ridiculous statements.
I noticed that you are capable of ridiculing ANYTHING. Your choice.
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:c478 20827480
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: A tale
of 2 ci EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
> DW> Show us the algorithm you use to seperate the metaphor from the fa
> DW> Jim. How do you know that the resurrection wasn't metaphorical as
>
> What is your intention here David ? Is it to prove the bible is right
> wrong? And how do you intend to do that ?
EF> Why didn't you answer the question? You claim much of the Bible is
EF> metaphor and he wants to know how to tell the metaphor from the
EF> literal parts. Is it because you are guided by your own personal
EF> desire to believe whatever is convenient, then state that belief as
EF> though it were a fact?: ("...much of the entire bible is written in
EF> this "metaphoric" sense")
I thought I had answered it before and maybe even after many times.
The way to tell the metaphor from the literal parts ? I really dont
know for sure. I wasnt there. But for me as I said about the story
of the boy who cried wolf, it doesnt make it any less "true" whether
or not that story was literal or a metaphor.
EF> By questioning what is writt
> in it ? And to do so, you must define what the words mean. Now for exa
> the word "day" cannot mean a 24hr solar day, simply because according
> the bible "literally", the sun did not even exist until the THIRD day.
> I will assume you agree with this concept because you say up there, th
> you could say the universe has only existed 7.9 days.
EF> But the days WERE 24 hours from the 3rd day on? The time span God
EF> called a day was different on different days, huh.
WRONG, because if the "genesis day" meant a "period of time" then
that is a different day than the "solar day" and all 7 days, may
have been using the definition of "a period of time".
Just as we have many meanings for the same word and misapplying
those meanings can make a total difference in the concept being
presented.
there was a recent discussion over the phrase "proud lesbien". Now there
are several things that could have been intended.
Proud in the sense being a lesbien is better than being a straight.
Proud in the sense that the person worked hard to become a lesbien.
Proud in the sense that the person was proud of having the courage
to admit she was a lesbien.
Or simply not ashamed of being a lesbien, proud in spite of the opinion
of other people.
Who can really be sure what the author intended and if that intent
had been changed like in the broken telephone game in its transition
from one person and generation to the next.
... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: ADOLPH HITLER
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:2238 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about ADOLPH HITLER...
DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert Sykes:
JG> The question that comes in now though , is do you make sex your "god".
JG> If a woman told you that she would have sex with you, if you killed
JG> your mother, would you kill your mother ? If you would, then sex
JG> certainly has become your god.
DW> If God told you that he would let you into heaven if you killed your
DW> mother, would you kill her?
First of all the God I believe in would hardly tell me to do so. You see
it goes against even the 10 commandments.
But then you could always wonder about it in this sense which could make
it contemplatable at least.
If my mother was suffering in intense agony, would god suggest euthanasia?
At this point in my beliefs, God is telling me to relieve the suffering
but not to kill the person. But I have not had much personal experience
with such situations. That is why I have difficulty with the issue of
assisted suicide, my question always remains, why can you not relieve
the pain with drugs until the person dies of natural causes ?
The point being that of following the spirit or intent of the law, which
is to respect life and not kill other people or take away their right
to life.
Or in the commandment of Jesus . Love your neighbor as yourself.
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a Chris
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:28
EID:3bab 20827480
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Adolph Hitler
Was a C
jg> The way one tells a Christian is by his love for his fellow man .
FR> You're ignoring the foundation of the Christanic death cult as well
as
FR> the history of the death cult entirely. A Christian is known by their
FR> hatred and resentment of all that is good. A Christian is known by
FR> their justification of ANY tyranny by using their deity constructs.
A
FR> Christian is known by every single expression of evil that men can and
FR> will do.
FR> YOU joined the death cult knowing full well what it stands for. That
FR> makes YOU complicity to the evil. That means YOU agree with what the
FR> Christanic death cult has historically stood for as well as for what
it
FR> stands for in contemporary time.
Excuse me but at no time have I ever joined a death cult. You accuse me
of this when you have no idea if I even belong to a church.
I am looking for a church which holds the ideas of christianity that
I do. Most churches I believe are political and social institutions. In
fact
the true church of god, is not in a denomination but in the hearts of
individuals. A church may have many of these christians in it or none
at all, and yet still call themselves christians. They are described
as wolves in sheeps clothing. And being a christian is a growing process.
It begins with being "born again" to a desire to do what is right and
proceeds through growth from childhood to maturity. The more you are
able and willing to accept the truth god plants in your heart, the more
mature you become as a christian.
But if I were in a church and they even suggested what you indicate
above I would denounce that church. If you choose to label everyone
who indicates they believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, which
by the way support NONE of what YOU have claimed above, that is a
biggoted choice on your part. And I feel sorry for you, that you cannot
seperate the truth from the lie.
FR> Lose the death cult, Jim.
FR> ~*~ No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you
FR> were gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not
FR> have happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
You really enjoy taking little snippets of messages perhaps out of
the context in which the were meant. I cant speak for Jim Staal, but
obviously this quote does not represent the sum total of all that went on
in this particular discussion.
What things ? And what is the context in which Mr Staal is speaking ?
For example if a gay person walks into a Neo Nazi meeting and yells
out loud . "I am gay and proud !" what is his agenda ?
... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:13:17
EID:ce0f 208369a0
this is what David Worrell had to say to Jim Germiquet about Avoiding the
Questio DW> 27 Mar 96 14:59, Jim Germiquet wrote to Norbert Sykes:
JG> The same analogy applies to the drug scenario up there.
JG> A person chooses to take drugs, the are happy, however because they
JG> made that choice, when the drugs are no longer available, they will
JG> suffer the hell of withdrawal.
DW> Your analogy is flawed, Jimmy (and no, we didn't really expect
DW> anything else). No one chooses to be a sinner - God made us that way.
Only to the degree that his TRUTH shines a light on our lies . His
goodness shines a light on our evilness.
But it is WE who CHOOSE to do that evil instead of the good.
... Go straight to the docs. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Can any god play your game?
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:28
EID:8ae1 20827480
this is what Fredric Rice had to say to Jim Germiquet about Can any god
play your JG> We also have to deal with those who have
JG> no intention of listening to God.
FR> Can any god play your game, Jim? You have no intention of listening
FR> to my god so can I murder you, kidnap and rape your children just like
FR> your god ordered?
Of course you can do anything you want. Of course our society has set
up some laws that might discourage you from doing so. But god would
not stop you. But god might forewarn me if I am listening, and allow
me to escape your evil intent. He might even use conditions that would
cause me to run away at just the right time that as you are pursuing
me, a power line that is ready to snap will come down and electrocute
you for your treachery. Of course had you not pursued me it would not
have happened that you would die.
... Sorry, the Dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Christian blow jobs,
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:b0f9 20827480
this is what Elliott Finesse had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: Christian
blow EF> In a message dated 03-18-96 Jim Germiquet wrote to Karl Schneider:
> JG>Again you apply todays standards to an alien time and place and
EF> people.
EF> You wish to do the same thing in reverse: apply alien standards (the
EF> old Testament - 10 Commandments) to todays time and place and people.
Not really. The standards that we should be striving for are timeless, peopless and placeless. These spiritual
values transcend mans timely perception of them. Where time and place
come in are merely in how they are expressed. Again this idea of some
sins being bigger than other sins is a man made idea. I said it before
and I'll say it again, the god I believe in did NOT approve of war 10,000
years ago any more than he does today. It is MAN who continually changes
his values and laws and perception of god so that he can do what he
considers justifiable. God/truth remains constant .... peoples
perceptions of it change in accordance to how willing they are to accept
it.
I once said that god was limited in being able to affect mans actions.
I should have said man is limited by his inability to listen to and
accept the truth that god is constantly trying to impart to him.
JG> But then how can you use the examples of abraham , in the end abraham
> does NOT kill his son, does he. But what he clearly does, is show that
> he has no other god before the true god.
>
> that doing the "right" thing is more important than doing what he
> wants. To be willing to give up your greatest treasure on earth to
> do what is "right". Trusting God enough to believe it is right.
EF> If you believe that anything your god tells you to do is "right" by
EF> definition, including murdering children, then you are a moral
EF> relativist to the nth power.
And do we not in a sense murder our own sons when we sent them off
to Germany, Korea and Vietnam ? We BELIEVED we were sacrificing our
children for a good reason. But hey it's okay for us , but not
Abraham.
JG> Please try to understand this concept. It is EXACTLY the same one in
t
> story of the rich person who came to Jesus and Jesus told him to sell
> everything he owned and give the money to feed the poor. That isnt a
> commandment for all people,
EF> You wish. You completely take this story out of context. For instance
EF> What did JC say right afterward about the rich going to heaven? Not
EF> only that but it is hardly the only place that JC says this. I
EF> supplied the quotes for you before. Only the most convoluted
EF> interpretation could derive a different meaning.
Because too many people put money and wealth ahead of their willingness
to do what god want them to. A person concerned with hording millions
may not be willing to listen when god asks him to give away a few of them.
But once again remember that people like Solomon and Noah and Job were
incredibly wealthy and yet considered gods champions. Also it depends
on who you are hearing the stories from. It just happens that Jesus
ministry was among the poor people and the writers may just have been
aware of that social level. Much like a person who is familiar with
the ghetto may not have personal knowledge of the person of the
high income areas and accordingly would write his personal biography or
his friends without mention of the richer people who he did not come
into contact with.
JG> It isn't "money" that is the root of evil which many mistakenly believ
> it is the "love of money".
EF> That's right! But you left out the first part of that passage:
EF> "They that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many
EF> foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and
EF> perdition"
They that WILL be rich, those that seek out richness, not necessarily
those whom may have richness thrust upon them.
EF> It is a rare individual indeed who becomes rich without very strong
EF> desire (love) of/for money.
It is a question of "priority" you can desire money as long as you do
not put that desire for money above your desire to do what is right ,
or what god tells you to do.
A wealthy person has to be WILLING to give all his money away if
god requires it of him. But just as Abraham was willing to give up
his sons life, God does not always require it of us. Just the
willingness that shows you have no other god above hearing
the truth of god and acting on it by doing the right thing.
A good example is to consider yourself a bank with all the money in
it gods. If you just give away all that money you no longer have
the ability to do the same kind of work . But we should be spending
the INTEREST to help others and then we can continually have the
ability to help others.
EF> Once again: "The ransom of a man's life [are] his riches"
The old " you can't take it with you" idea.
EF> "He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that
EF> loveth abundance with increase: this [is] also vanity."
EF> --Ecclesiastes 5:10
Again it deals with this LOVE of money. And I believe that it means
if this love of money is more than your love of god.
EF> "He that hasteth to be rich [hath] an evil eye, and considereth not
EF> that poverty shall come upon him." -- Proverbs 28:22
Again if you hasteth to be rich, instead of waiting upon the will
of god for you to become rich. It all deals with where your priorities
lie. FIRST put god ... then .... see.. don't "hasteth" to be rich.
Well you may have a point. But in my opinion. God doesn't care so much
how much money you have, as he does about what you do with that money.
And richness is relevant. A person in a flat is rich to a person on
the streets. A person in a rented house feels a person who owns their
own house is rich. A person who owns his own small house may consider
the person with two cars and a pool rich. A person with two cars and a
pool may consider Bill Gates rich :-)
Even in the verses up there, I sense that the point being made is where
the individual places being rich as his god or goal or first in their
lives. Only god knows if a rich person is willing to part with those
riches in the manner which god may ask of him.
... My other computer is a VAX.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:27
EID:fca9 20827480
this is what Preston Simpson had to say to Jim Germiquet about Claims of
deity co
JG> And who cares ? The real question is, how much "something" can you
JG> get from absolute "nothing", in a billion years ? Where did those
PS> One can ask this question of God as well. Where did God come from,
PS> Jim?
First you have to define what god is. God is a spirit ! God is the truth!
God is the spirit of truth and rightness and love .
Is there an end to truth ? A beginning ? Does it exist ?
And what is "anything" ...Some kind of expression of energy or something.
Whatever reality really is, when did it come into existence.
Back to the book of John.
In the beginning was the WORD
And the word was WITH god
And the word WAS god.
And the word became FLESH and dwelt among men.
JG>From what we know about science, Energy cannot be created or
JG>destroyed, sure there are some wonderful theories beyond that, but I
JG>hardly think we have come to a point where we can positively identify
JG>that something can come from nothing.
KDM> There's a remarkably large fusion generator in the sky; that's
KDM> where the energy has come from.
JG> Where did that large fusion generator come from :-).
PS> Kevin was addressing the foolish (yet frequently made) contention that
PS> evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics. It doesn't for the
PS> reason that he elucidated above. Asking where the sun came from delves
PS> into cosmology and astrophysics, not evolution.
But before you had evolution, you HAD to have cosmology and astrophysics,
even if they had not yet been defined.
JG>But it still remains that whatever exists, came from somewhere. Write
PS> Not necessarily. You're assuming that the chain of causality cannot
be
PS> infinite in length.
EXACTLY ! And that goes back to an infinite "god". Given the definition
that god is this chain of causality.
JG> is a spirit so the bible says. THINK about it. At some point in mans
JG> evolution, he must have come up with this idea of "right and wrong"
at
JG> some point he must have eaten from the fruit of the tree of the
JG> knowledge of good and evil. Isn't that, all the garden of eden story
is
PS> Not literally, one hopes. But the GoE story goes on to suggest that
PS> eating from the tree was forbidden by God. Why did God want to keep
us
PS> without the knowledge of good and evil?
BUT what if there was no good and evil before Adam and Eve ate from the
tree ? See it is a metaphor. Maybe the very concept of good and evil
is a man made idea, caused when man decided to do evil things like
lie , steal and kill.
You see, if we define just those three as "evil" and man has never done
those three things, then evil does not yet exist. But as soon as man
"lies" or "steals" or "kills", evil suddenly comes into existence.
So the question being asked in this tree story, is where did evil
first come from ? Why do men lie ? What was the first lie ? Now
if we define God as Truth, then the first time man went against god/truth
was the first sin.
JG> Maybe they "feel" god, but just dont call it god. Maybe they call it
JG> their "conscience", maybe they call it "reasoning" or "common sense"
JG> or "personal moral values". WHatever name you give it, it basically
JG> represents the same thing. It represents what each of us believe is
JG> "good or evil".
PS> Sociopaths, in many cases, wholly lack a conscience or what relatively
PS> normal human beings would speak of as morals or ethics. Where is their
PS> god?
Good question !
JG> "the theory that only the self exists"... And why is that not
JG> possible. I have been told by an atheist, that scientists can
JG> manipulate your brain and make you think you are swimming or talking
to
JG> aliens or walking, or anything at all. That then brings into question,
PS> Doesn't take scientists. You can do it with drugs.
JG> our ability to perceive what is real and what is simply perception.
PS> It has long been my opinion that humanity is incapable of knowing
PS> reality-- all that we can know is our perception of reality. However,
PS> when the evidence available to us points to a particular, logical
PS> conclusion, then we begin to grasp what reality *is*, assuming that
PS> we're not all hallucinating the same thing under all circumstances.
Dr. Deepak Chopra put it like this.
When you are asleep and dreaming, your mind is in a different reality or
consciousness. When you awake, you simply go from one consciousness to
another. And that this waking reality is not any more real than our
dream reality and that when our spirits leave this waking reality,
He describes this other reality as a "soup of energy". and that the
physical perception of it isnt much different than dreaming.
When we wake up from sleeping we say oh I was only dreaming now I am in
the true reality.
If we percieve reality as this "soup of energy" then we are in a sense
waking up from this physical sense of reality.
I think when christians say they are "born again" they mean that they are
now awake to the reality of the "truth/god".
... I'd rather ride the Wave than wallow in QWKsand!
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 02 Apr 96 14:36:29
EID:e240 20827480
this is what Martin Goldberg had to say to Jim Germiquet about Claims of
deity co JG> And who cares ? The real question is, how much "something"
can
JG> you get from absolute "nothing", in a billion years ? Where
JG> did those self replicating molecules come from in the first
JG> place ? Where did those scientific, or natural laws come
JG> from, that allowed those molecules to self-replicate ? You
JG> have no way of answering those questions with anything more
JG> than supposition or speculation.
MG> This is wrong. Look up and study the First law of Thermodynamics.
MG> Simply put (for