God Damned Fundies!
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: Typical theist dishonesty
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:40:13
EID:787c 208e4d06
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fc9
PID: FM 2.02
>> DH> Atheism asserts that there is no God (god).
fr> Oh? Care to give us the name of ANY atheist in this forum which
fr> states that? Or are you just lying because it's expected of
fr> Christians?
> Let me restate. Atheism according to Webster:
> atheism (n) 1. a disbelief in the existence of deity.
> 2. the doctrine that there is no deity.
>
> atheist (n) 1. one who denies the existence of God.
Your "Webster" is wrong (or you're using a definition you just made up.)
Atheism is the lack of belief in the existance of deity constructs. You
are _lying_ when you demand that an atheist "denies" the existance of a
"God" inasmuch as atheists can't deny something that doesn't exist _and_
doesn't denote the Christanic pantheon mistakenly capitalized to elevate
it to a higher position above all the other gods and goddesses.
I'll ask again: Care to give the name of ANY atheist in this forum who
states that there are no gods? Do it now or admit that your masters are
lying to you.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN. GET OVER IT.
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:41:10
EID:6cfb 208e4d25
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fca
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I would suggest that you divest yourself of that embarrassing
FR> ignorance. Might I suggest some easy reading materials for you?
jb> Sorry, Fred, I think Dr. Seuss is a bit beyond him.
What sort of clothes do you suppose
would be worn by a man with a mole on his nose?
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:43:26
EID:5209 208e4d6d
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fcb
REPLY: 1:116/19 040A0C9A
PID: FM 2.02
as> Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together.
as> Witness the birth of the new Nazi party.
FR> We already have. It's called "The Religious Reich."
as> If you would read more of the posts, you would find my opinion
as> of Reed and his group is not substantially higher than yours.
Except that employing the label "reich" denotes a connection to a certain
"third reich" we all know and... love. Are you, at least, willing to admit
that Adolf Hitler was in fact a Christian as he stated and as the the majority
churches of Nazi Germany agreed?
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CHRISTANIC BLOW JOBS
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:45:29
EID:d4d9 208e4dae
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fcc
REPLY: 1:116/19 040A1302
PID: FM 2.02
FR> In actual fact the only elections which really matter are the local
fr> ones: school board, city boards, and perhaps the mayor. (Pretending
fr> to actually vote for a president is pretty silly, don't you think?)
as> Not at all. Yes, it is usually choosing the lesser of two evils.
I think you finally understood what I was getting at. In any event local
elections are _far_ more important than pretending to vote for a president.
That may change depending on how the line-item veto is used.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DON'T READ THE BIBLE!
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:54:26
EID:c9ee 208e4ecd
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fcd
REPLY: 1:116/19 031C269C
PID: FM 2.02
gf> That's an oxymoron isn't it, _learned religious_ ?
FR> Hell, there's a great deal of truth in the statement that
FR> anyone who reads the classical Christanic mythologies once
FR> can't remain a believer. Anyone who learns scientific
FR> method and critical thinking and _employ_ both can't be a
FR> believer in the mythologies.
as> I can keep this up as long as you can, Fred.
And continue to be debunked every time.
as> Roger Bacon, who first formulated the idea of observation
as> and experimentation against theory, i.e., the scientific
as> theory in its essence, was a Christian monk.
Your reading comprehension would appear to be mostly faulty, Al.
The fact that I "underscored" the word "employ" above doesn't seem to have
registered in your brain. Perhaps it couldn't make it past your preconceptions?
Would you like for me to explain for you in simpler terms?
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN. GET OVER IT!
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:58:36
EID:49ee 208e4f52
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fce
REPLY: 1:116/19 031C3024
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Adolf Hitler was no different than the thousands of
FR> tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him
EF> True, with one exception: Hitler wasn't a Christian.
dc> Now you went and done it... Be afraid, very afraid.
c> Clean out your HD, as you will need the storage space....
FR> He's been thinking of some other Adolf Hitler, no doubt.
as> Not at all, as the source Elliot quoted...
as> AND WHICH YOU POINTEDLY IGNORED...proves.
Not at all, as the sources _I_ provided came straight from Hitler's mouth
and from the pens of a great many Christian church leaders at the time.
dc> You have done one of the 3 unpardonable offences in HS
dc> in questioning Fredric on "Hitler wasn't an xian".
FR> I actually posted some fresh debunkings of the claim.
as> What, quotes from Hitler?
How typical. Why not just admit that being a Christian does nothing to
turn a murdering tyrany into a human being? Why not just admit that you
have read the truth, don't like the truth, and filtered it out entirely?
If you would like to be debunked yet once again, please let me know and
I'll provide the quotes yet once again -- affording you another chance to
ask rhetorically "what, quotes from Hitler?"
Hitler's actions show conclusively that he was a Christian as well -- unless
you care to deny the bloody history of Christianity as so many Christians
do.
Hitler _was_ a Christian, Al. It's time to get over it.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Which Christian goes next?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:02:49
EID:bfae 208e5058
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fcf
REPLY: 1:116/19 031C9C3A
PID: FM 2.02
I wonder if you'll start to demand that Jim Jones also wasn't a Christian.
Who's next on your list of Christians you'll deny? Torquemada? David Duke?
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Hardly's truth filter
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:04:14
EID:107c 208e5087
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd0
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3169712c
PID: FM 2.02
Michael Hardy
FR> A far better moral and ethical ideal would be to treat
FR> others as they like to be treated. Try that.
mh> Please practice your superior ethic -- treat me as I
mh> would like to be treated, per the above description.
FR> I am. And you know it. You wouldn't be here if it weren't true,
FR> By the way: Your truth filter isn't working.
dm> Bullshit! When have you EVER seen any truth
dm> in one of his messages? It's working FINE!
}:-} There's an idea... Put a truth filter on everything that goes _out_.
Perhaps that's what his masters do for his postings.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hardly _WANTS_ to live in a theocrazy
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:06:29
EID:876f 208e50ce
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd1
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89594393
PID: FM 2.02
RS> He has selected a Thursday, May 2, for this national religious ritual.
RS> If we really believe in separation of church and state, I think that
mh> I say if this dog-and-pony show is the worst thing you have to worry
mh> about, you should count yourself lucky and consider how you came to
mh> have so much free time on your hands.
If you think that violating the Constitution of the United States is not
something to worry about, might I suggest that you go move to Iran? You
know: One nation under god?
Thanks. Be seein' ya.
ps: Or perhaps you would feel better in Nazi Germany under the rule of the
Christian fascist Adolf Hitler?
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: His Daily Dead People Walking
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:14:12
EID:677d 208e51c6
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd3
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 f9146b25
PID: FM 2.02
George Mooth
GM> Luke made the amazing and startling statement that Jesus was
GM> alive, He was seen by a great multitude of people, and His
GM> resurrection was confirmed by a great number of convincing proofs.
em> This means that there's a significant hope I could write on
em> thin, crinkly parchment that something which blatantly violates
em> all confirmed facts of physics took place and "thousands of
em> people saw it", and it would be believed a couple millenia from now.
George is suffering from a great deal of ignorance.
#1 Many people at that time "died" and then came back
from the "dead." It wasn't until the early 1800's
of the formation of the "Society of the ressucication
of those aparently dead" came along and started to
discover that those who appear dead can be manipulated
to restore life. At the time of the alleged "Jesus"
myth, being dead and coming back was mundane.
#2 The classical Christanic mythologies have conflicting
accounts of the myth.
#3 The myth of the "resurrection" was added centuries
after Paul/Saul created the cult. The fact that the
"Jesus" myth had to be _voted_ into being a god
indicates that the myth was being voted into acceptance.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: The Royal Family
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:16:36
EID:3e78 208e5212
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd4
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 4b236a3d
PID: FM 2.02
em> I was looking at some posts which talked about Adam & Steve, or
em> Eve, or whoever, and I'm ashamed to say that it has only just now
em> occurred to me: Who did Enoch schtup to start all those begats?
Fundies will tell you that at that time there was no stigma associated with
mating with one's mother or father. They base that claim upon their willful
belief in a "fall" which occured later, causing a "degeneration" of humanity
such that genetic defects were then possible.
You can trap a fundy in a lie easilly... yet they simply invoke magic to
escape.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: The truth fits. Wear it.
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:17:53
EID:6b12 208e523a
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd5
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 245a5939
PID: FM 2.02
SA> Something you fundies never seem to do.
jJ> What is a "fundie?"
SA> Look in the mirror.
JJ> And why do you call me one?
SA> Because I believe in calling a spade a spade.
jcj> That is not an answer, Sue.
FR> She told you, you ignorant death cultist lawyer. Look in the
FR> mirror for once. You'll find a fundy looking back at you.
FR> jcj> That is not an answer either, Fred.
FR> There's another artifact of the low quality of education in
FR> America raising its ugly head again. Or perhaps your problem is one
FR> of being a lawyer. Or perhaps it's because you're an ignorant death
FR> cultist.
jcj> That still is not an answer.
You're not _allowed_ to ask questions about your cult, leave alone accept
answers.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Jesse does it! Do I win a buck?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:21:17
EID:d90a 208e52a8
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd6
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 245a593a
PID: FM 2.02
FR> To all Christians: He's one of yours.
jcj> How ironic to receive this hateful diatribe on this Easter Day,
jcj> when Christians celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus the Christ!
Great! While it's not the lengthy ranting tirade about how his intellectual
superiors have "taken over" a "Christian ritual," at least he's still publically
trying to demand that the Fertility Festival of Isis has something to do
with his cult's deity constructs.
And I noticed that he's still pretending that his deity construct was "resurrected"
-- in direct conflict with his own master's mythologies.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Jesse Jones Fucks Up Again
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:23:36
EID:3b73 208e52f2
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd7
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 245a593b
PID: FM 2.02
FR> people like Jones drive the nation's expenses up, at least I and
FR> my sons won't have these lunatics to compete with in the job
FR> marketplace.
jcj> Don't write their applications for them, okay? It's "my sons and I."
FR> That's an interesting accusation yet I suspect you've stuffed your
FR> lawyer foot into your lawyer mouth. The inclusive case may be formed
FR> correctly using either syntax. You're probably suffering under the
FR> delusion that I typed "me and my sons."
jcj> Inclusive case?!? Sorry, I can't even
jcj> find such an animal in any work I have.
Can't admit you're wrong, huh? Was the truth of what I said so hurtful
that it's driven you to such resentment? (Gee, and I didn't even mention
Christmas trees in that one.)
Feel free to correct my spelling, lawyer, as I can use it. Yet when you
fuck up, have the decorum to admit it -- if not to everyone else then at
least to yourself.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get OVER it.
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:39:51
EID:36ff 208e54f9
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd8
REPLY: 1:236/20.0 3169484e
PID: FM 2.02
fr> His actions show that he used the tools and followed the
fr> historic policy of Christianity. His actions showed that
fr> he was undeniably a Christian. His own words state that
FR> he was a Christian. The Christian masters and churches at
fr> the time also stated that he was undeniably a Christian.
ed> Remember that Hitler was a ruthless politician. He could say
ed> anything he wanted, but his actions speak louder than his rhtoric.
Which is exactly true and which evidences the fact that he was a Christian.
He was doing things that Christian "leaders" had done for a dozen centuries
before him -- no difference. To demand that Hitler wasn't a Christian is
to demand that all the Christians who came before him weren't Christians
either.
Are you willing to defend that position?
ed> According to John Gunther in his book, INSIDE EUROPE,1938 ed.,:
ed> *He was born and brought up a Roman Catholic. But lost faith
ed> early and attends no religious services of any kind.
That's contrary to what Hitler said and to what Christian churches were
saying and doing at the time. Contrary to John Gunther, Adolf Hitler remained
a Christian until his suicide.
"Today, I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew,
I am fighting for the work of the Lord" (speech, Reichstag, 1936).
That's 1936, Ed. That's not "early on."
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"
-- John Toland (Pulitzer Prize winner), from "Adolf Hitler",
pp 507, talking about the Autumn of 1941.
Is 1941 "early on?"
Your source has got many things wrong. I can't help but wonder whether
your source is trying to deny the fact that Hitler was a Christain due to
the mistaken belief that being a Christian somehow stops someone from being
a murdering tyrant and a despot.
History teaches us otherwise. Why can't you admit it?
ed> His Catholicism means nothing to him....On being formed his
ed> government almost immdiately began a fierce religious war
ed> against Catholics, Protestants, and Jews alike.*
In 1933 two bishops met for over an hour with Hitler. In his
notes of that meeting, Bishop Berning happily remarked, "because
of [Nazism] Christianity was being promoted, the level of
morality raised, and the struggle against bolshevism and atheism
carried on with energy and success." (Catholic theologian Uta
Ranke-Heinemann, "Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven," p. 330.)
"In January 1934 Hitler saw twelve Evangelical leaders, and
after this meeting . . . they pledged 'the leaders of the
German Evangelical Church unanimously affirm their unconditional
loyalty to the Third Reich and its leader.'" (Johnson, p. 488).
He's meeting with Christian churches, talking with Christian leaders...
That hardly sounds like he's fighting a religious war now does it?
ed> Gunther contends that Hitler biggest priority was the unification of
ed> Germany, there had to be a removal from the Reich any competition which
ed> was international like the Vatican and Judaism.
And he used the tools that Christianity provided to do it with. No argument
here. The lesson to be learned from the bloody history of Christianity
is that one may use deity beliefs as a weapon of mass destruction against
innocent people for the unification and consolidation of power and control.
I don't dispute this fact. It evidences myself correct.
ed> Hitler considered Catholicism a dangerous enemy and had a
ed> campaign against the *black moles*, as Nazis called priests.
ed> Hitler also tried to install one his own men as an army
ed> chaplain in the Lutheran Church, so to he could have
ed> some control over it. It never seemed to work, however.
Welcome to how Christianity works, Ed. Or did you perhaps think that "confession"
inside of Christian churches has something to do with gods?
ed> Some of Hitler's followers turned to Paganism.
ed> They found the Norse myths to their liking.
"They [Nazis] fiercely rejected accusations that they were
atheists. Himmler declared that atheism would not be tolerated in
the ranks of the SS" (Paul Johnson's "A History of Christianity,"
p. 486).
Looks like your source got that one wrong as well.
-=-
If you would like some _secular_ sources which offer the truth about Adolf
Hitler, please let me know and I'll type them up for you.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: I find it amazing
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:44:11
EID:c420 208e5585
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fd9
PID: FM 2.02
I'm finding it amazing that so many Christians are unwilling to accept the
fact that Adolf Hitler was a Christian. I expected fundies to deny the
truth and yet even Al is pretending otherwise. The phenomena continues
year after year, in fact, as Christians are exposed, caught, or reported
on television.
I can't help but wonder what these people want to pretend are "TRUE Christians."
It would appear to be that a "TRUE Christian" is the person making the claim
and that everyone else is a "FALSE Christian."
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Science vs. Occultism
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:51:54
EID:ff3b 208e567b
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fda
REPLY: 1:215/130 001300f7
PID: FM 2.02
Jerry Gilbreath
Marty Leipzig
>> 53. Pleochroic halos, tiny spheres of discoloration produced by the
>> radioactive decay of particles that are encased in various crystals,
>> show that the earth's crust was NEVER in a molten state.
>> Furthermore, these halos suggest that the rate of radioactive decay
>> was NOT constant, and in fact, varied by MANY orders of magnitude
>> from that observed today.
Neat! Jerry's quoting from some religious tract using words he doesn't
understand to try to defend his continued belief in mythology! Gee. We
hardly ever see that done here!
ef> Now: I have heard on the echo that you are probably a "hit-and-run"
ef> creationist, so I do not think you will have the nerve to tackle
ef> _me_ on pleochroic halos: I have personally investigated them with
ef> truck, hammer, sample bags, microscope, CRC handbook of Chemistry
ef> and Physics, and considerable time eyeballing the little darlings
ef> and reference searching.
I can prophecy that he'll state that your science is in error -- if he responds
at all. When a Creationist can deny radiometric decay and all the other
dating sciences, they can deny _anything_.
By the way: If I extract tiny bones from a traditionally volcanic mountain
range along a dry riverbed, what's the easiest way to identify the animals
that used those bones? Are there books? And would I need to know the geological
age of the mountain range to limit my search?
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Shove the other one in
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:56:12
EID:e1a0 208e5706
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fdb
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3169f2b3
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
??> Why? You are certainly capable of such a tactless and idiotic
??> maneuver. On top of it all, you are enough of a shitlip to
??> actually do it.
Well it certainly seems as though you've shoved your foot in your mouth.
Staal already apologized for his unfounded accusation.
You're not a Creationist by any chance, are you?
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Magnetic field
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:02:09
EID:08e1 208e5844
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fdc
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD5
PID: FM 2.02
JG> and several dating methods for the earth indicate an approximate
JG> age of about 20,000 years or less.
DW> Which dating methods.
jg> The decay of the earth's magnetic field indicates an upper limit of
jg> about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr. Thomas G. Barnes,
jg> Professor Emeritus of Physics at the University of Texas. You may want
jg> to read his book, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field.
Barnes is a Creationist who doesn't subscribe to scientific method. His
wishful thinking has been utterly debunked by actual scientists. (See next
message. Read it fully. Save it to disk so you don't make the same mistake
of using a debunked Creationist again.)
In actual fact Barnes _lied_ about his percieved decay of the Earth's magnetic
field and _ignored_ the fact that the field changes over the years going
up and down over the centuries. He even ignores the Earth's poll reversals.
The next message debunks that claim utterly. I fully expect you to ignore
it.
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Earth's Magnetic Field
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:12:02
EID:93db 208e5981
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fdd
PID: FM 2.02
To: Jerry Gilbreath
jg> The decay of the earth's magnetic field indicates an upper limit of
jg> about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr. Thomas G. Barnes,
jg> Professor Emeritus of Physics at the University of Texas. You may want
jg> to read his book, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field.
=====================================================================
Author: Tim Thompson (tjt@jpl.nasa.gov)
Title: Creation Science and Magnetic Fields
=====================================================================
In his report on the CalTech "Evolution and Creation" seminar,
Wayne Broughton mentioned Thomas Barnes' study claiming that analysis
of the earth's magnetic field proves that the earth cannot be over
10,000 years old. I have studied Barnes' claim, and I feel qualified
to talk about it.
Barnes published his study in the monograph "The Origin and Destiny
of the Earth's Magnetic Field", published in 1974(?) by the Creation
Research Society. No doubt there is a more recent "updated" edition,
but I have not seen one. Everything I say is based on the first
edition.
Thomas Barnes is emeritus professor of physics and planetary
science, University of Texas at El Paso. He has a B.A. in physics from
Hardin-Simmons College (now University), in Abilene, Texas, and an
M.A. in physics from Brown University. His doctorate is an honorary
degree, conferred by Hardin-Simmons University. He's an old timer, as
I recall his B.A. dates from the early 30's. He is the author of a
college textbook on electricity and magnetism. I cannot recall the
title, but I have seen it, and it looks like any other ordinary upper
division type E&M text, lots of Maxwell's equations, nothing peculiar
that I saw. This would lead on to believe that he should know what
he's talking about.
A brief outline of Barnes's claim goes like this:
1. Only the dipole component of the Earth's magnetic field is
generated in the core. All other components are either
ionospheric, telluric currents, or magnetic rocks.
2. Cowling's Theorem specifically prohibits the dynamo
maintenance of the Earth's magnetic field.
3. The dipole component of the Earth's magnetic field is
generated by circular currents in the core.
4. The dipole component is decaying along an exponential
5. The extrapolated exponential shows unacceptably high field
strengths upwards of 10,000 years ago.
Barnes never produces a satisfactory explanation of the first
claim. In his terminology, it's obvious that evolution scientists are
confusing "signal" (the dipole component), and "noise" (everything
else). Personally, I find it hard to believe that exploration
geophysicists would overlook a field of magnetic rocks big enough to
affect the quadropole moment of the earth's magnetic field. Also, the
spherical harmonic expression of the earth's magnetic field, as
produced by Gauss himself, clearly seperates field sources above and
below the earth's surface. That means the ionospheric components are
eliminated right from the start (they have been shown to average out
over long time periods anyway). Likewise, telluric currents should
average out over long time periods. And, of course, rocks don't move
much faster than the continents they ride on.
Cowling's theorem (Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical
Society, vol. 94, pp 39-48, 1934), by Thomas G. Cowling, proves that
dynamo generation will not support an axially symmetric field, nor one
that is similar, in the mathematical sense. Indeed, this would apply
to a pure dipole. Since the Earth's field is neither dipolar, nor
similar, Barnes must make claim number 1, in order to make any sense
at all. Barnes glosses over his first claim as if it were almost
trivial, and spends a great deal of time on Cowling's theorem. He is
quite ostentatious, in fact, and proud of his adherence to hard
mathematics, unlike the sloppy evolution scientists.
The whole thing is a setup. If he can't prove that ONLY the dipole
component is generated in the core, then his reliance on Cowling's
theorem is irrelevant. Neither proof, nor evidence are offered. In
fact this weakness destroys the entire concept at once. All the rest
of the work hinges on the acceptance of "dipole only" in the core.
The fun part is where he talks about exponential decay of the
field. Barnes fits an exponential function via least-squares, on a
CDC 6600, to 150 years of dipole data. I note in passing, his attitude
clearly implies that using the then giant CDC computer virtually
guarantees that his results can hardly be wrong. In comparing this
exponential fit of his to a standard linear fit, the probable errors
in the fitting coefficients are a few percent better for his
exponential. He immediately assumes the linear fit is wrong, the
exponential is right, and proceeds to the next step.
Having satisfied himself of the exponential fit, to 150 years of
data, he then extrapolates the curve back 10,000 years, derives an
enormous magnetic field strength, denounces it as ridiculously large
(at least that much is true), and then dismisses the idea that the
earth can be more than 10,000 years old.
Q.E.D.
I found the book in the library at Cal State L.A., along with a
number of other creation science texts. A lot more could be said.
Barnes fills pages with irrelevant ramblings, including his ability to
re-write equations found in older works (Horace Lamb, and Maxwell) in
more recent notation.
I think I have covered what is relevant, enough to show that
Barnes's work lacks merit, and substance. I see no reason to believe
that the earths' magnetic field implies that the earth canot be over
10,000 years old.
However, like any good research, Barnes's work has sparked further
inquiry. If you don't have a sense of humor, quit now and don't read
any further.
I draw your attention to the paper "The Creation of Planetary
Magnetic Fields", by D. Russell Humphreys, Quarterly Journal of the
Creation Research Society, vol. 21, December, 1984. Recieved 3
January, 1984, revised 14 August, 1984. This is a refereed, scientific
journal. It says that Humphreys has a PhD in physics, and is (was) a
physicist at Sandia National Laboratories. Here is the abstract of the
paper:
"God could have started magnetic fields in the solar system in a
very simple way: by creating the original atoms of the planets with
many of their nuclear spins pointing in the same direction. The small
magnetic fields of so many atomic nuclei add up to fields large enough
to account for the magnetism of the planets. Within seconds after
creation, ordinary physical events would convert the alignment of
nuclei into a large electric current circulating within each planet,
maintaining the magnetic field. The currents and fields would decay
steadily over thousands of years, as Barnes has pointed out. The
present magnetic field strengths of the Earth, Sun, Moon, and planets
agree very well with the values produced by this theory and a
6000-year age for the solar system. The theory is consistent with all
the known data and explains many facts which have puzzled
evolutionists."
Humphreys presumes that God made the sun, and all of the planets
out of water, which has a strong dipole. Line up enough dipoles, get a
big field, then God changes everything from water to the silicate/iron
type stuff we see now, leaving behind decaying magnetic fields.
For those of you who still think scientific creationism is
scientific, I leave you with a paragraph from Humphreys' "conclusions"
section:
"The Bible is scientifically accurate. A straightforward reading of
Scripture supplied the essentials of this theory: the possibility of
initial alignment, the water composition, and the short time scale.
The fact that the theory fits the facts shows that the scientist can
rely on the Bible for new insight into the natural world."
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Superstition
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:12:37
EID:3b02 208e5992
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fde
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD5
PID: FM 2.02
There. If you need further debunking of Barnes, let me know and I'll provide
it. As it stands, I expect you to not make the same mistake again.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Superstition
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:16:59
EID:3b02 208e5a1d
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fdf
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD6
PID: FM 2.02
jg> Another method is the accumulation of meteoric dust. Remember the big
jg> pods on the legs of the first lunar lander? They found that there was
jg> NOT millions of years of dust accumulation on the moon as was once
jg> thought.
There's another debunked Creationist lie. (See the next message, copy it
to disk, and don't make the same mistake again.)
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Moon Dust
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:18:20
EID:8930 208e5a4a
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fe1
PID: FM 2.02
Jerry Gilbreath
jg> Another method is the accumulation of meteoric dust. Remember the big
jg> pods on the legs of the first lunar lander? They found that there was
jg> NOT millions of years of dust accumulation on the moon as was once
jg> thought.
From: Ron Dippold
Subject: Re: Moon Dust Argument
- Lunar dust--only 1 to 3 inches, not 54 feet.
The calculation you refer to is given by Henry Morris on pp.
151-153 of _Scientific Creationism_. It is based on a grossly
erroneous figure of 14 million tons of meteoritic dust per
year, quoted by Petterson in 1960.
Morris misinterpreted Petterson's article. Petterson published a
figure of 15 (not 14) million tons per year as an _upper limit_.
In other words, Petterson said that the value is _not more than_
15 million tons per year. He was not able to measure an actual value.
Morris erroneously chose to interpret it to mean it was _equal_
to 14 million tons per year. Accurate values were measured in
the late 1960's. The actual value is -much- lower than 15 million
tons per year.
Dalrymple gives the value of 22,000 tons per year, nearly 700
times smaller than your figure. That changes your 54 foot figure
into about 2 cm, which is quite consistent with the amount of
surface soil the astronauts found on the Moon (it was considerably
more than 1-2 mm).
My copy of "Everyman's Astronomy" indicates that the earth
collects about 9000 kg per day from meteors of visual magnitude
5.0 or brighter. Assuming a typical rock density of 3 g/cc, this
corresponds to an accumulation rate of one inch per 10 billion
years.
Unfortunately no data is presented for fainter meteors. I wouldn't
be surprised to find accumulation rate of one inch per 10 billion
years. Unfortunately no data is presented for fainter meteors. I
wouldn't be surprised to find that the actual rate is one or two
orders of magnitude higher, but "1 inch in 8000 years" is off by
six orders of magnitude.
A dust accumulation rate of "one inch per 8000 years" should
create a spectacular yearround meteor shower, and cause severe
pitting of the space shuttle windshields in just a single orbit.
My quick estimates give values far higher than have been actually
observed.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Superstition
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:19:33
EID:3b02 208e5a70
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fe2
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD6
PID: FM 2.02
Do you get the feeling that every Creationist lie you unthinkinly mouth
has been utterly debunked a thousand times over? Well you should. Unless
you're a Creationist who believe it's perfectly acceptable to continue to
lie reguardless of how many times the truth is proven.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Supersition
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:26:54
EID:8aac 208e5b5b
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fe3
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD6
PID: FM 2.02
jg> Another method takes into account the shrinking size of the sun.
That one's also been debunked a thousand times. (See the next message,
save it to disk, and don't make the same mistake again.)
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: The Shrinking Sun
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:27:41
EID:2350 208e5b74
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fe5
PID: FM 2.02
Jerry Gilbreath
From: Carl Wilson
To: Jack Brannan Msg #108, 93-04-02 20:11:14
Subject: Re: Helium
-=> Quoting Jack Brannan to Carl Wilson <=-
JB> Carl I lost your original message on this, I wanted
JB> to reply to it. I have a question for you, you claim
JB> creationists are always misrepresenting facts (you and
JB> your fellow evolutionists), why have you done so here.
JB> No creationist has ever given a figure of 1% per year,
JB> creationists use the same data you do.
When I first saw the "Shrinking Sun Theory" some years ago,
(as told to me by a creationist on a BBS) a rate of
approximately 1% per year was given. A book titled, "Our
Turbulent Sun" was the source of this idea. In chapter 6,
"The Shrinking Sun", creationists took statements like the
following:
"The amount of apparent shrinkage was extraordinary."
"If the sun were to continue shrinking at the rate of 2
seconds or arc per century, it would disappear in 960
centuries."
They then used this and similar statements to come up with
the "Shrinking Sun Theory" to prove a young earth.
But, for some reason, they didn't see statements like the
following in the same chapter:
"No one, least of all Eddy and Boornazian, [the individuals
doing this research] thought that this [sun disappear in
96,000 years] was going to happen."
"The shrinkage was assumed to be taking place in the sun's
outer layer's, not the entire solar mass. Were it otherwise,
[entire mass shrinking] the shrinkage would have produced
more than 200 times the observed luminosity of the sun!"
JB> What is the figure given by mainstream science? No one
JB> disputes the shrinkage, only the rate and it is given as
JB> 1% per CENTURY as a high end figure, many think the figure
JB> is about 1/7th of this.
Actually, almost everyone disputes the shrinkage. Most
astronomers agree, that if anything, the sun is a bit
larger (about 6%) than it originally was. There may be
*temporary* shrinkages, but not a steady, permanent one.
Even the astronomer [Eddy] that thought that the sun was
shrinking said the following at the end of the chapter:
"I now feel that we were probably wrong."
And, "The Data looked like you could trust it."
He then goes into a lengthy discussion of how the data
was corrupted. The chapter closes with this last paragraph:
"It may be ten years before a long-enough record is compiled
to see a trend in any of these measurements. Then we may
know whether the studies of the past two years showing a
small decline in solar diameter have been a fascinating
but futile exercise of attempting to tease too much
information out of too-imprecise sets of measurements, or
whether the sun really is TEMPORARILY {caps mine} shrinking.
So whether the "Shrinking Sun Theory" rate is 1% per year or
per century, it really doesn't matter. The whole thing is based
on quoting a book out of context. Besides, the creationist that
told me about this should have had his "facts" straight when he
told me "1% per year".
JB> I have a question for you, you claim creationists are
JB> always misrepresenting facts (you and your fellow
JB> evolutionists), why have you done so here.
You were saying?
... Creationists either ignore the facts, or are ignorant of the facts.
From: Carl Wilson
To: Jack Brannan Msg #115, 93-04-02 23:37:30
Subject: Re: HELIUM
-=> Quoting Jack Brannan to Henry Shaw <=-
JB> The exact figures given by creationists are supplied by
JB> data from mainstream science which shows a shrinkage rate
JB> during the last 100 plus years of 1% per CENTURY, not
JB> yearly. Creationist literature also says quite plainly
JB> this figure is contested and may be as low as 1/7 of that
JB> rate. Data from the past 400 years has also been
JB> used (eclipse) to confirm shrinkage. This study was
JB> published on Physics Today, which is not a creationist
JB> journal.
And you still ignore the fact that there is NO evidence of
constant shrinkage since the formation of the solar system.
THAT is the key to the SciCre, young earth theory known as the
"Shrinking Sun Theory". If you *really* think there is all
this evidence that the sun's been shrinking at a constant rate
during its entire lifetime, then read the astronomy books
yourself and post your findings here. While the idea that the
sun may be going through a *cyclic* shrinkage *might* be
supported by some, you would be very hard pressed to find a
single astronomer or astrophysicist that would claim a *constant*
shrinkage since the sun formed. And without the constant
shrinkage, your "young earth" based on the "Shrinking Sun
Theory" falls to pieces.
And I also find it very unlikely that precise measurements of
the needed accuracy were being performed 400 years ago. Tycho
Brahe (1546-1601) was reputed as being able to take the most
accurate measurements of celestial body positions of any
astronomer of his day. He was able to take measurements
accurate to about 1 minute of arc. Very good considering. To
be able to measure a shrinkage of 1% per century, you would
have to be able to take measurements showing a change of a few
*seconds* of arc. And if the actual shrinkage is really 1/7
of that, these 16th century astronomers were taking measurements
that late 19th century astronomers would envy.
... "Scientific Creation": Just religion in disguise..
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Superstition
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:28:12
EID:d770 208e5b86
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fe6
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD6
PID: FM 2.02
So far you're batting 000. Can't you Creationists come up with anything
new?
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Superstition
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:36:24
EID:d770 208e5c8c
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fe7
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD6
PID: FM 2.02
jg> Another depends on the rate at which alpha
jg> decay of uranium in granite releases helium.
Woops! Not only did you mistates your master's occultism, this one's also
been debunked a thousand times before. (See next message, read it, save
it to disk, and don't make the same mistake again.)
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Helium Escape
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:36:49
EID:b726 208e5c98
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fe8
PID: FM 2.02
Jerry Gilbreath
Argument IV quotes some CRC handbooks for the following
data: temperature at top of atmosphere, escape velocity,
and the atomic weight of helium, and uses Maxwell's
distribution to calculate that under the most extreme
conditions only 1.4E-7 of the He atoms could escape. The
unstated inference is that, since we don't all sound like
Donald Duck, the earth is too young for a lot of helium
to have accumulated.
This last argument was too blatantly wrong to ignore so
I wrote them the following letter:
Dear Sir:
The CRSQ 24(3), page 153, appendix IV has an error
concerning the escape of helium from the atmosphere.
Although at given time only a few atoms are fast enough
to escape, they are constantly re-equilibrating so that
other helium atoms are soon going fast enough to escape.
Using the Rubber Company tables without having had an
introductory thermo course illustrates Keats's comment
about a little learning.
Sincerely yours,
Wm. Randolph Franklin
Associate Professor
They published my letter in vol 25, n 1, June 1988, pp54-55,
with a reply by Benton. He said that the theory "implicitly
assumed continuous replenishment". Then he contradicted
himself: "Because helium is continuously produced and very
little of this escapes (only 1.4 in 10 million), one may infer
that for practical purposes, the helium now present in the
atmosphere is essentially the accumulation of that which
has been produced, plus whatever original helium there may
have been."
The editor also deleted my title (Assoc Prof) from my letter
but included Benton's (PhD).
Comments:
1. When I wrote my letter, I thought he was just overeager
and ignorant -- not knowing about the re-equilibration and
that it takes place fast -- nothing really wrong with that.
2. After reading his response, I have to conclude that,
assuming that he was not deliberately being deceptive with
this argument, he and I really reason about physics in quite
different modes.
3. The editor either does not closely examine the arguments
of papers he publishes, or his reviewers let him down.
4. For people who "appeal to reason," some creationists
are quite sensitive to titles. My next letter, if any, to
them will end
Wm. Randolph Franklin (BSc Trawna, AM & PhD Harvard,
former Visiting Prof UC Berzerkley,
Assoc Prof Rainsallyear Poly,
NSF Presidential Young Investigator)
(The above titles are for the purposes of intimidation only
and are not meant to be construed as agreement with these
opinions by the named organizations).
Wm. Randolph Franklin, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Superstition
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:37:08
EID:d770 208e5ca4
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fe9
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD6
PID: FM 2.02
Go back to your masters and ask for a refund.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Hardly wants a "kill?"
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:47:11
EID:4744 208e5de5
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fea
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3169bb2c
PID: FM 2.02
MH> I find I stand in some confusion over how to respond. I feel no joy
MH> in a "kill," as there is no victory won here. Anyone who thinks there
MH> is is misguided.
lb> Actually, I wasn't thinking any from the christian camp
lb> *WOULD* consider it a kill, as the stated mission of
lb> christianity is to bring people in, not turn them out.
lb> I'm a bit bemused that you felt that particular line
lb> pertained to you...
"...as there is no victory won here..." Since you're breaking free from
an oppressive, anti-woman, dogmatic men's-only club, I would call that a
definite victory.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Adolph Hitler: Christian
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:13:55
EID:5d42 208e61bb
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896feb
PID: FM 2.02
Elliott Finesse
FR> Adolf Hitler was no different than the thousands of
FR> tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him
EF> True, with one exception: Hitler wasn't a Christian.
dr> Historians, of course, know otherwise: Hitler was
dr> a Christian. He stated so many, many times.
Not to mention the fact that we have documents from official Christian church
masters who were in absolute agreement with what Adolf Hitler was doing.
I expect fundies to deny the truth. Elliott would appear to be a heathen,
however.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:22:07
EID:6903 208e62c3
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fec
PID: FM 2.02
>>CO> the other hand the bd's were asking for it. when people
>>CO> knowingly allow children to be abused, they are
>>CO> themselves partners in that crime. And they seemed to
>>CO> want to emmolate themselves, much in the traditions of
>>CO> Buddhist Monks during Vietnam.
dr> Never, as far as I have read and heard from David "Koreth,"
dr> did he consider himself "the second comming of Jesus" or a
dr> "Christ." He did state he was a "lamb of god," i.e. one of
dr> the profits, as in the traditional Hebrew / Jewish manner.
He employed rhetoric which Christians use to describe the "Jesus" mythos,
though. He _did_ claim that he'll be back, however, and many Christians
believe that he has, in fact, returned.
FR> There was no child abuse at the Davidian
FR> compound. That was a government lie.
dr> That sort of depends on what one considers "child abuse."
One of the claims used to inflame the masses was one of sexual child abuse.
dr> The Davidians appeared no less a danger to children as
dr> Church of Christ churches, or Assemblies of God churches.
Or Jehova Witnesses or Mormons, for that matter. Or Catholics, Protestants
et al.
dr> It is said that David "Koreth" considered himself "married"
dr> to the girl children, though no sign of sexual abuse was
dr> discovered. If that in itself is a crime, then Neil Sadaka
dr> should be locked up for all those teeny-bopper songs he's
dr> written and sung. :-)
The state of Texas has laws anyway which allows a parent to decide whether
a minor may marry.
FR> What the Davidians _were_ doing was using their children
FR> as hostages and putting them into fatal danger -- something
FR> each and every one of the Davidians should have been
FR> Locked-up for doing.
dr> Perhaps "hostage" fits, perhaps it does not. From their
dr> perspective, they were defending their children from Satan
dr> (i.e. Satan's power on Earth, the U.S.A. government). Their
dr> Christian beliefs required an anti-Christ-controlled power,
dr> and they believed that power would apply itself against god's
dr> last holdout on Earth: the Davidians.
The BATF and FBI treated the Christians inside as hostages when in fact
they were inside the compound on their own free will and allowed to leave
and come as they wished.
And yeah, the BATF certainly proved David Koresh was right.
dr> If the BATF had said "Send up your children," I cannot
dr> imagine the Davidians believing anything less than that evil
dr> would befall their children if they had done so. From the
dr> perspective of the Davidians, sending their children out to
dr> the BATF may have been equal to Jews sending their children
dr> out to the Nazis.
Which is why I equated the Davidians with the slaughter/suicide at Masada.
dr> Why the fuck the BATF and Janet Reno refused to understand
dr> this problem is anyone's guess.
Their number 1 goal was to reinstate the BATF as a useful organization safeguarding
the public from gun nuts and terrorists. No one wanted the BATF men and
equipment -- the FBI was asked and they turned them down. The DEA agreed
to accept the equipment yet didn't want the men or offices because the BATF
were and continue to be fuck-ups.
FR> What kind of lunatic fucks would store half a million
FR> rounds of ammunition and bomb-making materials next door
FR> to where 30 + children sleep at night?
dr> I live 40 miles upwind of a nuclear reactor (San Onofry).
dr> What kind of lunatic fucks would build a nuclear reactor
dr> 20 miles upwind of a major city (San Diego)?
Well there's that, yes. }:-} BTW: When _are_ we going to take care of
that?
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Gods in Evolutionary Theory
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:26:06
EID:ad0e 208e6343
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fed
PID: FM 2.02
FR> What _IS_ it with Creationists who want to pretend
fR> they're not Creationists? They know that Creationists
fR> are nothing if not dishonest yet they want to slide
FR> under that fact by demanding they're not Creationists
FR> while at the same time spouting the Creationist
FR> occultism lie for lie.
dr> It's the same with Fundamentalists who claim there were
dr> "atheists" untill "the evidence" convinced them they were
dr> wrong. The same emotional illness is involved.
Or the "born against" Christianics who pretend they were "Satanists" when
they were Wiccans or Pagans and come up with all kinds of lies to try to
fit in with their new cult.
dr> It's also the same illness that causes Fundamentalists to
dr> claim dead non-believers were really believers just before
dr> they died.
Ah, yes. Death bed "confessions." They put words into Robert Ingersol's
mouth years after he died, too. And Einstein. And Darwin (who was always
a Christian and a Creationist.)
>>DR> Since no one knows the properties of the gods
>>DR> (electrical charge, chemical bonds, viscosity,
>>DR> temperature, etc.), it seems utterly impossible
>>DR> to me to include them in Evolutionary Theory.
>>DR> Maybe John can do so.
dr> But I doubt it.
Leave that attempt up to Lee W. }:-}
FR> I'll see how he works Peter Pan into mathematics first,
FR> I think.
dr> I spent the previous five minutes pondering how gods could be
dr> added to Evolutionary Theory, but I cannot come up with any
dr> way to do so.
Well, not rationally, any way.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Quote: ROTFL!
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:31:43
EID:2701 208e63f5
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fee
PID: FM 2.02
>>DR> Talk about FUNNY: get a load of this shit---
>>>BJ> Hello Sean. You sound like a very learned man, and yet
>>>BJ> you still don't believe in Jesus Christ.
dr> "Hello Sean. You sounds like a very safe, sane man, and
dr> yet you still don't blast your brains out with a shotgun."
"Hi, Sean. You sound like a very learned man and
yet you still don't rape alter boys and hate blacks."
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Divine Retribution
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:32:25
EID:a8ba 208e640c
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896fef
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 316ab075
PID: FM 2.02
mc> God is not mocked Trinity! Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart tried
mc> to make a fool out of God, and look what happened to them.
They succeeded in showing what Christianity is all about.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bill Wolff
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:34:57
EID:b714 208e645c
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896ff0
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6515cac7
PID: FM 2.02
BW> Lie Marty.
mg> Do you honestly think that we are as stupid as you Billy. You are a
mg> wannabe evolutionist who wlazted in here telling lies and getting
mg> caught. No amount of quoted material will save you now, Moron. You
mg> ahve committed your libel on Dr. Sagan.
Well he _could_ admit he's a Creationist liar (redundant, I know) and he
_could_ agree that he is incapable of telling the truth. 'Course I still
wouldn't believe him -- he's _STILL_ trying to put words into Carl Sagan's
mouth.
Just like fundies when they put death-bed "confessions" into atheist's mouths.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: evidence...
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:36:59
EID:baa8 208e649d
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34896ff1
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6515cfc4
PID: FM 2.02
GW> That's not very nice... pilgrim. I would personally like to
GW> invite you to attend my class on Tae Kwon Do that starts Jun
GW> 19 at the Kettering college. I'll be teaching.
mg> Isn't this nice. No evidence, so he posts a threat.
Damn! I missed it! I should read all of a Creationist's postings, I suppose,
yet it's pointless since they don't make any new claims.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Why yes, Rome _was_ built in a day. (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Adolph Hitler WAS a Christian. Get OVER IT!
|Date: 14 Apr 96 17:47:49
EID:5116 208e8df8
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 34917893
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 84e8bf04
PID: FM 2.02
JG>AND women must learn respect for one another. The scars that a woman
has
JG>learned to leave upon men, are not physical, they are mental and so there
JG>are no polaroid snapshots that can be presented in a trial. And of course
JG>society still laughs at a man who allows a woman to abuse him. Women
also
JG>must bear the curse of their own aggressiveness, and sadly their children
JG>must also bear the curse of a woman who has chased her husband out of
the
JG>home and marriage through constant verbal abuse, free from the previous
JG>threat of physical defence once used by men. Some men on the other hand
kw> This is pathetic. A man who can only defend himself with his fist is
kw> not a man. He is not even an animal (I would not so insult animals).
kw> These are the attitudes that earn so many christian men the scorn and
kw> pity of others. How weak a man you describe, that a hurtful comment
is
kw> enough to 'scar his mind'. How broken by his 'god' and his religious
kw> masters he is.
[...cuts...]
That was well said. When I observe "family arguments" -- television's way
of depicting wife beatings and attempted murder -- I can't help but feel
those who would beat their wives or their husbands are something less than
human. I find it no different than parents who murder their children.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Human rights is a secular idea
|Date: 15 Apr 96 21:08:33
EID:ec53 208fa910
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 351520b2
PID: FM 2.02
>> God damn your god damned old hellfired god damned soul to hell
>> god damn you and goddam your god damned family's god damned
>> hellfired god damned soul to hell and good damnation god damn
>> them and god damn your god damned friends to hell.
>> -- Letter to Abraham Lincoln, signed Pete Muggins, 1860
> You're kidding; this is a real quotation of a
> letter sent to Abraham Lincoln?
> Mike T
Mike,
In James A. Haught's book 'Holy Horrors' (Haught was then associate
editor of the Charleston Gazette) he writes:
"In another area of human rights, many Christian clergymen advocated
slavery. Historian Larry Hise notes in his book 'Pro-Slavery' that
ministers 'wrote almost half of all defenses of slavery published in
America.' He lists 275 men of the cloth who used the Bible to prove
that white people were entitled to own black people as work animals."
This follows a supporting testimony by the scholar Arthur Schlesinger
Jr. in a 1989 speech:
"As a historian, I confess to a certain amusement when I hear the
Judeo-Christian tradition praised as the source of our present-day
concern for human rights, that is, for the valuable idea that all
individuals everywhere are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit
of happiness on this earth. In fact, the great religious ages were
notable for their indifference to human rights in the contemporary
sense. They were notorious not only for acquiescence in poverty,
inequality, exploitation, and oppression, but also for enthusiastic
justification of slavery, persecution, abandonment of small children,
torture, and genocide.
"During most of the history of the West ... religion enshrined
and vindicated hierarchy, authority, and inequality, and had no
compunction about murdering heretics and blasphemers. Until the end
of the 18th century, torture was normal investigative procedure in
the Catholic church as well as in most European state...
"Human rights is not a religious idea. It is a secular idea, the
product of the last four centuries of Western history. Tocqueville
persuasively attributed the humanitarian ethic to the rise of the
idea of equality... It was the age of equality that brought about the
disappearance of such religious appurtenances as the auto-da-fe
and burning at the stake, the abolition of torture and of public
executions, the emancipation of the slaves... The basic human rights
documents - the American Declaration of Independence and the French
Declaration of the Rights of Man - were written by political, not by
religious, leaders."
I cannot recall where I read a reference to Abraham Lincoln's
claim that the older and more experienced he became the less faith he
had in Christianity being a force of good intentions, but it
certainly would appear plausible that the political symbol of
emancipation of American slaves would receive abundant
amounts of hate-mail from the righteous. I am likewise sure that, as
Taner Edis and Larry Hise demonstrate, it is well documented.
Faithfully yours,
Donald Buckley
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: What sex are you?
|Date: 15 Apr 96 21:25:04
EID:24c4 208fab22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 35156989
PID: FM 2.02
"So... Which sex are you?"
"I don't know. My doctor hasn't told me yet."
_______________________________
(c) 1996 Baltimore Sun. All rts. reserv.
WHAT ARE YOU: MALE, MERM, HERM, FERM OR FEMALE?
BALTIMORE MORNING SUN (BS) - Sunday March 17, 1996
By: William O. Beeman
Edition: F Section: Perspective Page: 1F
Word Count: 1,054
TEXT:
ARE THE CATEGORIES "man" and "woman" so obviously clear that
they need no further explanation?
Legislators throughout the nation trying to prevent the recognition of
"gay marriage" contracted in other states obviously think so. They have
introduced legislation that would grant official recognition only to
marriages between "a man and a woman."
Perhaps Mr. Burns and the other legislators who are pushing these bills
don't realize it, but their passage would unwittingly nullify or prevent
millions of supposedly heterosexual marriages.
Why? Because the marriage partners will not meet the medical definition
of being "a man and a woman." To make matters worse, most of these couples
will not know that they are illegally married.
Between 3 million and 10 million Americans are neither male nor female
at birth. Additionally, as adults they may be genetically of the opposite
gender from that which they and their parents believe them to be.
The medical term for persons of ambiguous gender is "intersexual."
Estimates of the numbers of persons who may be born intersexual ranges from
1 percent to 4 percent of all children born today, according to Dr. Anne
Fausto-Sterling of the Division of Biology and Medicine at Brown
University.
The difficulty in determining clear-cut specification of gender arises
because there are at least three ways to define it. Two are biological and
one is cultural.
The first biological definition defines gender in terms of chromosomes.
Males have an X and a Y chromosome. Females have two X chromosomes. The
second biological definition assigns gender in terms of male and female
genitalia.
In the third, "cultural" definition, males are people who lookand act
"male," and females are people who look and act "female." Americans
generally want everyone to fit the third, cultural definition, even when
people have biological characteristics that are not strictly in accord with
a two-gender system.
One cause of intersexuality seems to be the posession of an abnormal
number of chromosomes only one or more than two. A second cause stems from
the fact that all humans, no matter what their chromosomal makeup, have
the
biological capacity to develop either male or female genitalia and
secondary sexual characteristics while in the womb. Developmentally, some
babies are born with male or female chromosomal makeup and with both male
and female genitalia, or with some of the genitalia of the opposite
chromosomal sex.
Dr. Fausto-Sterling points out that there is a smooth continuum between
100 percent biologically male and 100 percent biologically female with many
possibilities in between. She calls those with both testes and ovaries
"herms." Those with testes and some female genitalia but no ovaries are
"merms." Those with ovaries and some male genitalia but no testes are
"ferms." This gives the possibility of five rough biological groupings:
male, merm, herm, ferm and female.
Most intersexual Americans are unaware of their true biological gender
because under current medical practice, physicians reassign the gender of
intersexual infants at birth. Such infants are surgically altered and given
hormonal treatments so that they will fit into one of the two "cultural"
categories male or female. The test is usually not chromosomal, but rather
based on the "viability" of the genitalia to eventually appear normal.
Often the parents are not fully informed about what is happening to
their children.
Dr. Fausto-Sterling calls this medical reassignment a "surgical
shoehorn" designed to force intersexed infants into rigid cultural
categories that have little to do with biological reality.
As a result, there are perhaps millions of XX males and XY females
living in the United States today. These are cultural males with male
genitalia who are genetically female, and cultural females with female
genitalia who are genetically male. The film star Jamie Lee Curtis is one
well-known individual who is genetically male, but phenotypically female.
The legislators have obviously not consulted with scientists in their
zeal to eliminate "gay marriage."
William O. Beeman is an associate professor of anthropology at Brown
University.
Pub Date: 3/17/96
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Gods in your pockets?
|Date: 17 Apr 96 06:27:21
EID:2ebe 2091336a
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 36066aa5
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f671f2b7
PID: FM 2.02
FR> My guess is that the gods in his pockets run out of ink
fr> quickly when they're constantly writing their words and
fr> signing orders for the execution of whole cities of people
fr> and stuff.
kw> Either that, or the gods hiding in his pocket are stealing the pens
to
kw> limit the spread of hurtful, heathen writings. Poor things, I guess
kw> they never heard of computers (or perhaps they are the driving force
kw> behind Win95?). Now, just what is it that Yahweh is doing with Dan's
kw> socks? Do you think that he (or maybe it's Jesus) has a fetish?
Hey! The Christian gods will NOT be mocked!
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Adolph Hitler Was a Christian.
|Date: 17 Apr 96 06:29:37
EID:61cd 209133b2
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 36066aa6
PID: FM 2.02
FR> You're ignoring the foundation of the Christanic death cult as well
as
FR> the history of the death cult entirely. A Christian is known by their
FR> hatred and resentment of all that is good. A Christian is known by
FR> their justification of ANY tyranny by using their deity constructs.
A
FR> Christian is known by every single expression of evil that men can and
FR> will do.
jg> Some very SELECTIVE reasoning is obviously being used here, and denies
jg> all that good that has been done in the name Of Jesus Christ, including
You're ignoring entirely why the Christanic death cult was created, what
it was created for, and how it's been used and continues to be used.
History shows us that religion is a tool. You're a prime example of what
that tool does to people.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Jim Germiquet is ONE evil pig
|Date: 17 Apr 96 06:31:22
EID:a6cd 209133eb
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 36066aa7
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Denying what your death cult stands for merely allows people like you
FR> to repeat it -- drive that body count up, Jim, and then demand that
the
FR> innocent people you raped and slaughtered were better off dead.
FR> Demanding that rape and slaughter were "normal" entertainments enjoyed
FR> by your fellow death cultists merely proves my point.
jg> These messages have got to be drug induced :-) Sounds
jg> like paranoia running rampant. Do you use speed ?
My guess is you can't deny the truth so you try to concoct yet another fantasy
in your mind to try to escape it.
In actual fact YOU are the one who said it's a good idea to murder surviving
family members when the father is killed. That's the Christanic death cult
programming you've recieved talking.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: The Easter Bunny
|Sub: Watch Jesse Christ Jones
|Date: 17 Apr 96 06:36:35
EID:6b8e 20913491
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 36066aa8
REPLY: 1:363/309 57098b24
PID: FM 2.02
>> Watch Jesse Christ Jones try to pretend that Easter has
>> something to do with his cult. A BUCK! says he'll try to
>> pretend that the Fertility Goddess has nothing to do with it.
teb> i am glad this only comes once a year; the
teb> goddamn eggs were tearing my ass up...
I always wanted to ge with you one year and video tape this thing then do
a write-up for some major biology journals. }:-}
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 17 Apr 96 06:37:14
EID:bf9a 209134a7
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 36066aa9
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895B0E1E
PID: FM 2.02
JS> Actually, it has been a couple of months, but who's counting? Fred
JS> won't let me leave...and I would hate to disappoint him. I am, however,
JS> attempting to take a bit of a different approach than I did in the
JS> last 5 months of 1995.
dc> What are you going to do? Attempt to sound intelligent?
He's going to post sober.
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Carl Linde
|Sub: Rules of conference
|Date: 17 Apr 96 06:43:41
EID:666e 20913574
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 36066aaa
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316B3564
PID: FM 2.02
cl> In regards to the language that some of these people (and I
cl> use the term loosely, VERY loosely) use, only shows that their
cl> vocabulary is indeed limited and not of sound moral character!!!
Yet another one who wants to play "let's pretend."
Words aren't magic, Carl. They can't hurt you. You are trying to pretend
that there are some words which, when used, evidence the intelligence and
morality of the individual.
That's as idiotic as "reading" the bumps on someone's head and pretending
to determine their intelligence and morality from it.
If you want to pretend words are magic, take it to I_UFO. Thanks in advance.
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: Tithe: Bilk the ignorant. Stupidity tax.
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:18:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072904
REPLY: 3:640/201.3 316bc2dd
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Which merely serves to prove my point. No one can learn the origins
FR> of the classical Christanic mythologies and remain a believer in same.
gf> This is one of the big problems IMO. There's so much "control code"
gf> built into the Bible to keep believers away from searching out the
gf> truth. Everything they do, all study ect is all handed down by thier
gf> masters.
How better to maintain control and bilk the ignorant?
I just watched 18 minutes of a Christanic master at work on the telebitchen.
This guy was shameless! As I was changing channels I heard the word "tithe"
and stopped to watch this guy "explain" why their gods want them to give
money to them. The guy went skimming through the Christanic mythologies
to "justify" his claim on their money.
If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I would not have believed it. Also
I can't help but be amazed that such bunko isn't made against the law and
these scam artists fined and locked up.
gf> Reading anything else, like science journals for instance, is
gf> deemed bad as everyone knows this is Satan's world so everything
gf> not connected to worshiping Jehovah is of Satan.
We've all noticed that here, yeah. I think that if Christanic masters could
get away with it, they would ban reading and writing as "tools of the devil"
and go back to banning the public's ownership of the Christian mythologies
so they can "keep the lay people from false interpretations."
gf> I haven't met a believer yet who thought that science wasn't bad. How
gf> could they think anything else ? Science ridicules most of what the
gf> Bible says.
I've met a few. Damn few.
~*~ I see faith in your eyes, never you hear the discouraging lies. I hear
faith in your cries. Broken is the promise. Betrayal. - METALLICA
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Right wing extremists
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:19:15
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072905
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 16be5166
PID: FM 2.02
> In this update: Yet Another CDA Lawsuit: Fred Cherry v. Janet Reno
> Deception and deceit from DoJ's Jason Baron
> URLs for the DoJ's dirty picture list
> The true identity of Grey Flannel Suit
Boy there's a conspiracy behind every street corner with you right-wing
extremists lunatics, huh?
~*~ Another disenfranchised quasibiped from the MTV school of debate.
- Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:22:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072906
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316B4528
PID: FM 2.02
mb> Thanks that is the best compliment I have had today.
FR> Yep, you're in the same death cult that
FR> Adolf Hitler was. Feels good, huh?
mb> Well their are always some miss giuded people in anything.
"Some?" Take a look at the history of the Christanic death cult, Mark.
Hitler did exactly what the tool of Christianity was created for. Nearly
ALL of European Christianity were signatories to statements of agreement
on what Hitler was about.
If you _learn_ a little about the death cult, you couldn't morally persist
in pretending to believe in it.
mb> Take a look at some of the scientist in the world,
mb> not all of them are real nice.
Oh? Like who? Give me two names. Thanks.
mb> In any group you can find some bad apples.
In Christianity you find a deadly ideology which seeks to include thwe unaffected
in their followers delusions.
mb> Your Brother in Christ,
Case in point. Here we see why the Christanic death cult has the history
it does. Your wish to include your intellectual superiors in your deadlty
delusions is historically the single most deadly aspect of the cult.
~*~ "The residential apartment complex's first floor was leveled in the
earthquake...crushing many penises in the process." - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:25:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072907
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316B4529
PID: FM 2.02
>>> but no promises he thinks I have fell in
>>> with the devil because I talk to you all.
FR> That's pretty ignorant, I hope you realize.
mb> That I can agree with.
FR> Welcome to all that the Christanic death cult has to offer its sheep.
mb> Well I will have to disagree with this statment.
mb> Not all Christian leaders are that unfair.
They most certainly are. You seem to be laboring under some missguided
delusion that Christanic masters oppress and control you for your own good.
Each time you dig into your pocket to give your death cult masters money,
try remembering what is foremost in the minds of your masters.
~*~ But lets face it, if politicians weren't allowed to lie, half the
time they'd have trouble saying their own names. - Paul Feonic
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:28:22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072908
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316B452A
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Try reading it once. Then get back to us with
FR> evidence that there are deities. Thanks in advance.
mb> I am about a third of the way throught it in a read it in a year plan.
FR> Don't you think it's rather silly to read a book of mythology
FR> going in alrea believing it's describing deities that you want
FR> to exist? Aren't you capabl of understanding that doing so is
FR> no different than picking up a Wonder Woma Comic book and
FR> trying to find a reason to believe that Wonder Woman exists?
mb> not realy the same thing.
Denial of the truth is pretty silly when you can't come up with some _reason_
why you're denying it, Mark. There must be _SOME_ reason why you couldn't
come up with an example on how Wonder Woman and your master's deity constructs
are "not the same thing."
Now why is that?
FR> Why not read some SCIENCE books, Mark?
mb> Read sevral and am only 6 hour sort of my computer
mb> programing degree. thanks for the tip.
Your statement shows that you know nothing of science. You seem to want
to pretend that computer programing requires science. It doesn't.
At least now we see why you believe in invisible Alpha Male constructs.
~*~ We are all in need of salvation. I may not know you, but knowing you
are an atheist, I know you need to be saved. It must be extremely
difficult to be an atheist? - Scott Shiflett, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:30:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072909
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316B452B
PID: FM 2.02
FR> In any event, the myth's origins were taken from the
FR> Gilgamesh epic. The Chinese would have noticed their
FR> own extermination had the legend been true.
mb> That is realy an intersting statment.
Do you admit that it's correct? Or do you wish to want to pretend that
the Chinese reallty don't have a written history that goes back over 11,000
years? Do you wish to pretend that they _were_ wiped out in the Glilgamesh
flood only they actually survived and no one noticed?
~*~ Hey, man, that's straight from satan's hell. - Phil Morrison
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:31:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807290a
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316B4525
PID: FM 2.02
PS> Now then, if by some accident, all of the water on earth were
ps> to be in liquid form and dumped onto the surface of the earth,
ps> you'd still need two entire more hydrospheres of water to do
ps> the job the flood describes.
mb> ok if you say so I have not looked that up.
Is that an admission that the mythology _is_ myth?
~*~ ARE THE MAJORITY OF YOU PEOPLE BABY RAPERS only held back from your
demented idealisms of torture and mayhem because of the constraints
ordained in the constitution? - David Stoddard
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:32:29
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807290b
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316B4527
PID: FM 2.02
KDM> The Big Bang? Sorry, there's evidence for that.
mb> very shakey evidence.
You have admitted that you don't understand science, Mark.
I would gather you couldn't explain the 3 degree Kelvin background radiation
and why it's not isotrophic across the visible universe, huh?
~*~ "The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because
thereby Christ himself is glorified." -- Saint Bernard of Clairvaux
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Your Daily Alien
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:41:05
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807290c
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 651cbc59
PID: FM 2.02
> Paleoanthropology Division
> Smithsonian Institute
> 207 Pennsylvania Avenue
> Washington, DC 20078
[..cuts...] Love it!
There's something good coming from Mooth's mindless Christian rants. }:-}
~*~ "Who fought the Gorgon Medussa?" -- Marshall Shapiro
"Perseus. But some of his buddies got stoned in the
process." -- Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Fertility rituals!
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:44:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807290d
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 65204cfd
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Well, tonight's the night that we hide reproductive
FR> organs around the place for our offspring to search
FR> for in the morning.
jjh> Since when is an egg an "organ"?
Isn't it? Aren't pine cones and watermellon seeds reproductive organs?
jjh> Or do you hide chocolate dildos around the house?
}:-} Well we all engage in fertility rituals a little differently.
~*~ Maybe He did say something and it just was not recorded. - Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Eakle
|Sub: religions
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:45:36
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807290e
REPLY: 1:213/742.0 316b6d68
PID: FM 2.02
> Ok I am here to stir up some holy smoke. I am a reformed atheist. I
> was when I was younger a christian until Junior High School or Middle
> School depending on where your at. I then became a atheist I have no
> idea why other than I believe in Evolution.
Accepting the fact of evolution and not holding belief in deity constructs
are two different things, though. Most Christanics in the United States,
for instance, accept the fact of evolution. I would also hazard a guess
that most of the paleontologists and biologists in the United States are
also Christians.
~*~ When you die, it doesn't just disappear... that'd be contrary
to physics! - Ariadne
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:51:10
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807290f
PID: FM 2.02
> WHO HOLDS THE ROPE?
> Read: Hebrews 13:1-6
WHO IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN?
Read: World History
Most of the mainstream denominations in Germany expressed
support for Hitler and for his regime at some time or other.
The Catholic Bishops conference in 1933 "expressed joy that through
the new state Christianity had been promoted, morality improved, and
and the struggle against Bolshevism and godlessness condicted with
energy and success"
In the same year, 1933 "The Catholic Students Union hails the
National Socialist revolution as the greatest spiritual breakthrough
of our time".
~*~ The milieu here is like a gang rape by a bunch of maladjusted
teenaged boys whose hormones have gone mad. - Jesse C. Jones (Heathens)
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:51:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072910
PID: FM 2.02
> ABOVE THE CIRCUMSTANCES
> Read: Habakkuk 3:17-19
ABOVE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DEATH CULT
Read: World History
In 1934, responding to an enquiry from the Ministry for Church
affairs, the Catholic Seamen's Mission listed the books and papers
they provided to seamen. The list included Hitler's own anti-
semitic Mein Kampf, and the newspaper Volkischer Beobachter.
In 1936, the Bishops of Hannover, Wurtemburg and Bavaria signed
a statement that said in part "We, together with the Reich Church
Committee, stand behind the Fuhrer in the life-struggle of the
German people against Bolshevism. In this struggle, the Church
mobilizes the forces of christian belief against unbelief."
~*~ The king is coming! - LEONARD BERNIER
And the queen isn't. How typical. - David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Be "kind" to Creationists like Hardly
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:56:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072911
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 316be2c8
PID: FM 2.02
FR> "Well, a kind is kind of like a dog and a wolf but more like a coyotee
FR> is kind of like a kind between itself and a fox only then you also
FR> include cats in with the dogs to get a kind."
sa> You missed the nitwit on Evolution last year (I think it
sa> was Tony Ermie) who tried to claim that all plants belonged
sa> to one "kind".
That's so _cute_! I'm so happy that these nuts won't be in competition
with my sons when they enter the job force. 'Course our taxes have to go
tos upport these people who have fallen behind but _hopefully_ after a few
more generations have died out, belief in the flood mythology and the ideological
self-ignorance will die out as well.
Sadly I can't count on it.
~*~ Yes, that's radiant heat. What does that have to do
with infrared? - ARTEMIS
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Hardly doesn't care about the truth
|Date: 21 Apr 96 07:57:19
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072912
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895C0E38
PID: FM 2.02
Michael Hardy
MH> (As you might infer, neither your opinion
MH> nor Marilyn's matters beans to me.)
Since when has the truth _ever_ mattered to a fundy?
~*~ Please take a number in the Martyr line and
respond when your name is called. - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Jesse Christ Jones couldn't drink from that well
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:01:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072913
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895C0E31
PID: FM 2.02
JJ> How ironic to receive this hateful diatribe on this Easter
JJ> Day, when Christians celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus the Christ!
dc> Your late with _your_ diatribe, Jesse. All us heathens
dc> were worried that something may have happened to you.
Jesse Christ Jones couldn't drink from that well. I had poisoned it before
he could. If he had posted his rant on schedule he would have done _exactly_
what I said he was going to do so to prove me wrong in something (since
he can't in real life) he tried to keep his mouth shut.
'Didn't work. A fundy can be played like a puppet. You just learn which
strings to pull and when to pul them and you can make them dig into their
pockets and have over their money or you can make them walk right off a
cliff. You can also manipulate them into remaining silent -- just as I did.
~*~ I personally would prefer to see the human race go via nuclear war
than
by the takeover of homosexuality... then I wouldn't have to be witness
to this erosion of our society that is now occuring. - George Pope
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: Your god failed
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:04:23
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072914
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895C0E25
PID: FM 2.02
TB> But with God all things are possable.
Which gods? The ones in the classical Christianic mythologies?
If so, perhaps you had best replace your paper idol with something a little
more powerful. Your deity constructs couldn't even defear chariots built
of iron. Doubt it? Look it up in your paper idol.
So much for your gods.
~*~ That proliferative query is as ambiguious as your probable parentage.
- Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Science vs. Occultism
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:06:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072915
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895C0E29
PID: FM 2.02
Jerry Gilbreath
JG> The decay of the earth's magnetic field indicates an upper limit of
JG> about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr. Thomas G. Barnes,
dc> Please explain why the "decay" also shows a reversal in the magnetic
dc> field in which the force, when in line with the poles, shows up
dc> the strongest?
Barnes is a Creationist who has no idea what scientific method is. Did
you see the postings I offered which utterly debunked these claims?
~*~ Hell! Jesus isn't even as popular as WordPerfect! - J.J. Hitt
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE WHAT
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:09:58
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072916
PID: FM 2.02
FR> The directly observed fact of evolution doesn't disappear just because
FR> cultists want to wish it all away. There IS no debate among biologists
FR> of the FACT of evolution. The mode and tempo of evolution, however,
is
FR> discussed.
FR> Evolution is no mre subject to debate than gravity is.
am> No, Frederick.
Yes, Andeyrew.
am> Gravity is a repeatable, falsifiable and refutable theory.
No it's not, Creationist. Gravity is a directly observed phenomena just
like evolution is. There are two competeing theories which describe gravity,
just as there are some three or four competing theories which describe evolution.
But you're not interested in truth.
am> A far cry from theories of evolution.
You changed the subject. (How typical of a Creationist.)
> 17 EVIDENCES AGAINST EVOLUTION
Great! We'll take them one at a time! (Next messages.)
~*~ One does not have to be stupid to believe. - Kim Kelley
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Moon Dust occult claim: debunked
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:12:58
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072917
PID: FM 2.02
> 1. MOON DUST
> Meteoritic dust falls on the earth continuously, adding up to
> thousands, if not millions, of tons of dust per year. Realizing
> this, and knowing that the moon also had meteoritic dust piling
> up for what they thought was millions of years, N.A.S.A. scien-
> tists were worried that the first lunar ship that landed would
> sink into the many feet of dust which should have accumulated.
> However, only about one-eight of an inch of dust was found, indi-
> cating a young moon.
Status: Debunked.
From: Ron Dippold
Subject: Re: Moon Dust Argument
ajs9462@sigma.tamu.edu (SIMON, ANTHONY JOE) writes:
From the (a) FAQ
} - Lunar dust--only 1 to 3 inches, not 54 feet.
The calculation you refer to is given by Henry Morris on pp.
151-153 of _Scientific Creationism_. It is based on a grossly
erroneous figure of 14 million tons of meteoritic dust per
year, quoted by Petterson in 1960.
Morris misinterpreted Petterson's article. Petterson published a
figure of 15 (not 14) million tons per year as an _upper limit_.
In other words, Petterson said that the value is _not more than_
15 million tons per year. He was not able to measure an actual value.
Morris erroneously chose to interpret it to mean it was _equal_
to 14 million tons per year. Accurate values were measured in
the late 1960's. The actual value is -much- lower than 15 million
tons per year.
Dalrymple gives the value of 22,000 tons per year, nearly 700
times smaller than your figure. That changes your 54 foot figure
into about 2 cm, which is quite consistent with the amount of
surface soil the astronauts found on the Moon (it was considerably
more than 1-2 mm).
My copy of "Everyman's Astronomy" indicates that the earth
collects about 9000 kg per day from meteors of visual magnitude
5.0 or brighter. Assuming a typical rock density of 3 g/cc, this
corresponds to an accumulation rate of one inch per 10 billion
years.
Unfortunately no data is presented for fainter meteors. I wouldn't
be surprised to find accumulation rate of one inch per 10 billion
years. Unfortunately no data is presented for fainter meteors. I
wouldn't be surprised to find that the actual rate is one or two
orders of magnitude higher, but "1 inch in 8000 years" is off by
six orders of magnitude.
A dust accumulation rate of "one inch per 8000 years" should
create a spectacular yearround meteor shower, and cause severe
pitting of the space shuttle windshields in just a single orbit.
My quick estimates give values far higher than have been actually
observed.
~*~ One naive Christian does not make all Christians fools, Scot.
- Charlie J. Ray
Nor does one man like Adolph make all NAZIs bad people. - Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE WHAT
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:13:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072918
PID: FM 2.02
> 1. Moon Dust
That one was easy to debunk. Next?
~*~ And when you go to hell, i'll get the last laugh!
- Christopher Calabrese
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Magnetic Field occult claim: Debunked
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:16:11
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072919
PID: FM 2.02
> 2. MAGNETIC FIELD
> The earth's magnetic field is decaying rapidly, at a constant
> (if not decreasing) rate. At this rate, 8000 years ago the
> earth's magnetism would have equaled that of a magnetic star, a
> highly unlikely occurrence. Also, if electric currents in the
> earth's core are responsible for the earth's magnetism, the heat
> generated by these currents 20,000 years ago would have dissolved
> the earth.
Status: Debunked
Barnes and the Earth's magnetic field
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
From: tjt@Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Tim Thompson)
Message-ID: <26l3eq$kmc@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: tjt@Jpl.Nasa.Gov
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Here is a copy of the post I put up when the question of the Barnes
version of the history of the Earth's magnetic field came up last
February. Hope this tells you what you want to know.
==================================================================
In his report on the CalTech "Evolution and Creation" seminar,
Wayne Broughton mentioned Thomas Barnes' study claiming that analysis
of the earth's magnetic field proves that the earth cannot be over
10,000 years old. I have studied Barnes' claim, and I feel qualified
to talk about it.
Barnes published his study in the monograph "The Origin and Destiny
of the Earth's Magnetic Field", published in 1974(?) by the Creation
Research Society. No doubt there is a more recent "updated" edition,
but I have not seen one. Everything I say is based on the first
edition.
Thomas Barnes is emeritus professor of physics and planetary
science, University of Texas at El Paso. He has a B.A. in physics
from Hardin-Simmons College (now University), in Abilene, Texas,
and an M.A. in physics from Brown University. His doctorate is
an honorary degree, conferred by Hardin-Simmons University. He's
an old timer, as I recall his B.A. dates from the early 30's. He
is the author of a college textbook on electricity and magnetism.
I cannot recall the title, but I have seen it, and it looks like
any other ordinary upper division type E&M text, lots of Maxwell's
equations, nothing peculiar that I saw. This would lead on to
believe that he should know what he's talking about.
A brief outline of Barnes's claim goes like this:
1. Only the dipole component of the Earth's magnetic field is
generated in the core. All other components are either
ionospheric, telluric currents, or magnetic rocks.
2. Cowling's Theorem specifically prohibits the dynamo
maintenance of the Earth's magnetic field.
3. The dipole component of the Earth's magnetic field is
generated by circular currents in the core.
4. The dipole component is decaying along an exponential
5. The extrapolated exponential shows unacceptably high field
strengths upwards of 10,000 years ago.
Barnes never produces a satisfactory explanation of the first claim.
In his terminology, it's obvious that evolution scientists are confusing
"signal" (the dipole component), and "noise" (everything else). Personally,
I find it hard to believe that exploration geophysicists would overlook
a field of magnetic rocks big enough to affect the quadropole moment
of the earth's magnetic field. Also, the spherical harmonic expression
of the earth's magnetic field, as produced by Gauss himself, clearly
seperates field sources above and below the earth's surface. That means
the ionospheric components are eliminated right from the start (they
have been shown to average out over long time periods anyway). Likewise,
telluric currents should average out over long time periods. And, of
course, rocks don't move much faster than the continents they ride on.
Cowling's theorem (Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society,
vol. 94, pp 39-48, 1934), by Thomas G. Cowling, proves that dynamo
generation will not support an axially symmetric field, nor one that
is similar, in the mathematical sense. Indeed, this would apply to a
pure dipole. Since the Earth's field is neither dipolar, nor similar,
Barnes must make claim number 1, in order to make any sense at all.
Barnes glosses over his first claim as if it were almost trivial, and
spends a great deal of time on Cowling's theorem. He is quite
ostentatious, in fact, and proud of his adherence to hard mathematics,
unlike the sloppy evolution scientists.
The whole thing is a setup. If he can't prove that ONLY the dipole
component is generated in the core, then his reliance on Cowling's
theorem is irrelevant. Neither proof, nor evidence are offered. In fact
this weakness destroys the entire concept at once. All the rest of the
work hinges on the acceptance of "dipole only" in the core.
The fun part is where he talks about exponential decay of the field.
Barnes fits an exponential function via least-squares, on a CDC 6600,
to 150 years of dipole data. I note in passing, his attitude clearly
implies that using the then giant CDC computer virtually guarantees that
his results can hardly be wrong. In comparing this exponential fit of
his to a standard linear fit, the probable errors in the fitting
coefficients are a few percent better for his exponential. He immediately
assumes the linear fit is wrong, the exponential is right, and proceeds
to the next step.
Having satisfied himself of the exponential fit, to 150 years of data,
he then extrapolates the curve back 10,000 years, derives an enormous
magnetic field strength, denounces it as ridiculously large (at least
that much is true), and then dismisses the idea that the earth can
be more than 10,000 years old.
Q.E.D.
I found the book in the library at Cal State L.A., along with a number of
other creation science texts. A lot more could be said. Barnes fills pages
with irrelevant ramblings, including his ability to re-write equations
found in older works (Horace Lamb, and Maxwell) in more recent notation.
I think I have covered what is relevant, enough to show that Barnes's
work lacks merit, and substance. I see no reason to believe that the
earths' magnetic field implies that the earth canot be over 10,000 years
old.
However, like any good research, Barnes's work has sparked further inquiry.
If you don't have a sense of humor, quit now and don't read any further.
I draw your attention to the paper "The Creation of Planetary Magnetic
Fields", by D. Russell Humphreys, Quarterly Journal of the Creation
Research Society, vol. 21, December, 1984. Recieved 3 January, 1984,
revised 14 August, 1984. This is a refereed, scientific journal. It says
that Humphreys has a PhD in physics, and is (was) a physicist at Sandia
National Laboratories. Here is the abstract of the paper:
"God could have started magnetic fields in the solar system in a very
simple way: by creating the original atoms of the planets with many of
their nuclear spins pointing in the same direction. The small magnetic
fields of so many atomic nuclei add up to fields large enough to account
for the magnetism of the planets.
Within seconds after creation, ordinary physical events would convert the
alignment of nuclei into a large electric current circulating within each
planet, maintaining the magnetic field. The currents and fields would
decay steadily over thousands of years, as Barnes has pointed out. The
present magnetic field strengths of the Earth, Sun, Moon, and planets
agree very well with the values produced by this theory and a 6000-year
age for the solar system. The theory is consistent with all the known
data and explains many facts which have puzzled evolutionists."
Humphreys presumes that God made the sun, and all of the planets out
of water, which has a strong dipole. Line up enough dipoles, get a big
field, then God changes everything from water to the silicate/iron type
stuff we see now, leaving behind decaying magnetic fields.
For those of you who still think scientific creationism is scientific,
I leave you with a paragraph from Humphreys' "conclusions" section:
"The Bible is scientifically accurate. A straightforward reading of
Scripture supplied the essentials of this theory: the possibility of
initial alignment, the water composition, and the short time scale. The
fact that the theory fits the facts shows that the scientist can rely
on the Bible for new insight into the natural world.
~*~ May Dopefish not pee in your wheaties. - Steve Quarrella
------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Thompson, Earth and Space Sciences Division, JPL.
Assistant Administrator, Division Science Computing Network.
Secretary, Los Angeles Astronomical Society.
Member, BOD, Mount Wilson Observatory Association.
INTERnet/BITnet: tjt@scn1.jpl.nasa.gov
NSI/DECnet: jplsc8::tim
SCREAMnet: YO!! TIM!!
GPSnet: 118:10:22.85 W by 34:11:58.27 N
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: That was easy, too
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:16:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807291a
PID: FM 2.02
> 2. Magnetic Field
That was easy to debunk, too. Next?
~*~ No, I'm not a fundy. - Johnny Mckinney
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Fossil record occult claim: Debunked
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:19:57
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807291b
PID: FM 2.02
> 3. FOSSIL RECORD
> Charles Darwin stated, in his Origin of Species, "The geolog-
> ical record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large
> extent explain why we do not find intermediate varieties, con-
> necting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by
> the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views on the
> nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole
> theory."
Status: Debunked
Evolution is a directly obvserved phenomena in sutu and in the laboratory.
The fossil record simply proves that evolution has been and continues to
be going on for a couple of billion years.
Also, as any _scientist_ could tell you (as opposed to occult priesthood
who have a vested interest in the continued ignorance of their sheep) the
fossil record shows exactly what is predicted by evolutional theories.
~*~ When you cannot use facts to demonstrate that something
is true, just label it "spiritual". - Sean McCullough
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: That was easy, too.
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:20:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807291c
PID: FM 2.02
> 3. Fossil Record
That one was easy to debunk as well. Next?
~*~ Those menacing atheists with their dangerous questions
are coming! Run for your lives! - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Occult claims of biology: Debunked
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:24:02
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807291d
PID: FM 2.02
> 4. EMBRYONIC RECAPITULATION
> Darwin said that embryological evidence was "second to none
> in importance." The idea of embryonic recapitulation, or the
> theory that higher life forms go through the previous evolution-
> ary chain before birth, was popularized by Ernst Haeckel in 1866.
> It was later found that Haeckel forged the diagrams which he used
> is evidence for the theory.
Status: Debunked
Science shows that there is no such thing as a "higher life form" or a "lower
life form." That is a Cretionist belief (which, of is usually the case
with Christanic death cultist's claims, entirely unevidenced.)
Additionally, embryonic development does indeed show stages which evidence
the undeniable truth of evolution. It is a Creationist cultist claim that
developing embrionic "past life regressions" are claimed by their intellectual
superiors.
Doubt it? Provide the name of a scientist who makes the claim?
Guess what? You can't because your masters are _lying_ to you again.
~*~ You don't need "faith" to believe Richard Dawkins; you need
an education. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: That was certainly easy as well.
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:24:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807291e
PID: FM 2.02
> 4. Embryonic Recapitulation
That was certainly easy to debunk as well. Next?
~*~ Or perhaps you would just prefer a moment of silence, in which those
who may be members of Santeria can sacrifice their animals in peace?"
-- Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: The rest: Debunked
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:38:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072921
PID: FM 2.02
The rest of your master's diatribe didn't make it here however these are
all standard Creationist occult claims which have been and continue to be
debunked year after year. Let's take a look down memory lane, shall we?
> 5. Probability
Status: Debunked.
Typical Christanic death cultist claim is that probability denies the observed
fact of evolution. Typical easy debunking of same is to point out that
probability has nothing to do with the observed fact of evolution with the
additional suggestion that the death cultist flip a coin a thousand times,
write down the sequence, and then ask itself how probable that sequence
was at coming up.
That was easy.
> 6. Second Law of Thermodynamics
Status: Debunked.
Typical Chriastanic death cultist claim is that the second law of thermodynamics
state that everything tends toward disorder then they demand that since
life develops toward more complexity, the fact of evolution can be ignored
as a "Satanist" magic trick. Typical easy debunking of same is to point
out that the second law of thermodynamics refers to a closed system, not
an open system such as what we have here on Earth.
That one's really easy.
> 7. Vestigial Organs
Status: Proves evolution.
The atrophied evolutional coden sequences within each and every living (and
dead) cell shows exactly what is predicted by theories which describe the
fact of evolution. The atrophied evolutional cast-offs prove beyond dount
that hit-and-miss is being employed.
> 8. Fossil and Fossil Fuel Formation
Status: Debunked.
Christanic death cultists are still trying to pretend that "fossil fuel"
is created by the body fat of animals which have died in the past; specifically,
dinosaurs. This is easilly debunked by showing the death cultist that vegitable
matter is what is used to form fossil fuels.
Easilly debunked.
> 9. Punctuated Equilibria
Status: Good science.
Another minor variation of a theory which attempts to describe the fact
of evolution. Punk-eek sates that geologic seperation of parent gene pools
dictates the branched formation of a seperate species over time. This is
in good agreement with the fossil record.
That's another for the side of reason.
> 10. Homology/Molecular Biology
Status: Good science.
Biology of all stripes doesn't work without evolution -- it makes no sense.
The atrophied evolutionary cast-offs of the coden sequences within each
and every cell of a living creature proves conclusively that evolution has
been and continues to be a natual phenomena.
> 11. Dating Methods
Status: Good science.
Every radiocarbon and other method of dating items when used properly prove
beyond a doubt that radiocarbon and other methodologies are highly accurate
scientific tools.
> 12. Dinosaurs
Status: Good science.
Extinction is a primary aspect of the theories of evolution. The fact that
entire species of animals and plants go extinct and leave behind offspring
species debunks Creationist occultism entirely.
~*~ If you are an Atheist, then you have already joined their camp
of willing slaves. - David Stoddard
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Sun's Diameter: Debunked
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:39:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072922
PID: FM 2.02
> 13. Sun's Diameter
From: Carl Wilson
To: Jack Brannan Msg #108, 93-04-02 20:11:14
Subject: Re: Helium
-=> Quoting Jack Brannan to Carl Wilson <=-
JB> Carl I lost your original message on this, I wanted
JB> to reply to it. I have a question for you, you claim
JB> creationists are always misrepresenting facts (you and
JB> your fellow evolutionists), why have you done so here.
JB> No creationist has ever given a figure of 1% per year,
JB> creationists use the same data you do.
When I first saw the "Shrinking Sun Theory" some years ago,
(as told to me by a creationist on a BBS) a rate of
approximately 1% per year was given. A book titled, "Our
Turbulent Sun" was the source of this idea. In chapter 6,
"The Shrinking Sun", creationists took statements like the
following:
"The amount of apparent shrinkage was extraordinary."
"If the sun were to continue shrinking at the rate of 2
seconds or arc per century, it would disappear in 960
centuries."
They then used this and similar statements to come up with
the "Shrinking Sun Theory" to prove a young earth.
But, for some reason, they didn't see statements like the
following in the same chapter:
"No one, least of all Eddy and Boornazian, [the individuals
doing this research] thought that this [sun disappear in
96,000 years] was going to happen."
"The shrinkage was assumed to be taking place in the sun's
outer layer's, not the entire solar mass. Were it otherwise,
[entire mass shrinking] the shrinkage would have produced
more than 200 times the observed luminosity of the sun!"
JB> What is the figure given by mainstream science? No one
JB> disputes the shrinkage, only the rate and it is given as
JB> 1% per CENTURY as a high end figure, many think the figure
JB> is about 1/7th of this.
Actually, almost everyone disputes the shrinkage. Most
astronomers agree, that if anything, the sun is a bit
larger (about 6%) than it originally was. There may be
*temporary* shrinkages, but not a steady, permanent one.
Even the astronomer [Eddy] that thought that the sun was
shrinking said the following at the end of the chapter:
"I now feel that we were probably wrong."
And, "The Data looked like you could trust it."
He then goes into a lengthy discussion of how the data
was corrupted. The chapter closes with this last paragraph:
"It may be ten years before a long-enough record is compiled
to see a trend in any of these measurements. Then we may
know whether the studies of the past two years showing a
small decline in solar diameter have been a fascinating
but futile exercise of attempting to tease too much
information out of too-imprecise sets of measurements, or
whether the sun really is TEMPORARILY {caps mine} shrinking.
So whether the "Shrinking Sun Theory" rate is 1% per year or
per century, it really doesn't matter. The whole thing is based
on quoting a book out of context. Besides, the creationist that
told me about this should have had his "facts" straight when he
told me "1% per year".
JB> I have a question for you, you claim creationists are
JB> always misrepresenting facts (you and your fellow
JB> evolutionists), why have you done so here.
You were saying?
... Creationists either ignore the facts, or are ignorant of the facts.
From: Carl Wilson
To: Jack Brannan Msg #115, 93-04-02 23:37:30
Subject: Re: HELIUM
-=> Quoting Jack Brannan to Henry Shaw <=-
JB> The exact figures given by creationists are supplied by
JB> data from mainstream science which shows a shrinkage rate
JB> during the last 100 plus years of 1% per CENTURY, not
JB> yearly. Creationist literature also says quite plainly
JB> this figure is contested and may be as low as 1/7 of that
JB> rate. Data from the past 400 years has also been
JB> used (eclipse) to confirm shrinkage. This study was
JB> published on Physics Today, which is not a creationist
JB> journal.
And you still ignore the fact that there is NO evidence of
constant shrinkage since the formation of the solar system.
THAT is the key to the SciCre, young earth theory known as the
"Shrinking Sun Theory". If you *really* think there is all
this evidence that the sun's been shrinking at a constant rate
during its entire lifetime, then read the astronomy books
yourself and post your findings here. While the idea that the
sun may be going through a *cyclic* shrinkage *might* be
supported by some, you would be very hard pressed to find a
single astronomer or astrophysicist that would claim a *constant*
shrinkage since the sun formed. And without the constant
shrinkage, your "young earth" based on the "Shrinking Sun
Theory" falls to pieces.
And I also find it very unlikely that precise measurements of
the needed accuracy were being performed 400 years ago. Tycho
Brahe (1546-1601) was reputed as being able to take the most
accurate measurements of celestial body positions of any
astronomer of his day. He was able to take measurements
accurate to about 1 minute of arc. Very good considering. To
be able to measure a shrinkage of 1% per century, you would
have to be able to take measurements showing a change of a few
*seconds* of arc. And if the actual shrinkage is really 1/7
of that, these 16th century astronomers were taking measurements
that late 19th century astronomers would envy.
... "Scientific Creation": Just religion in disguise..
~*~ ...you have willingly joined the legion of Satans's angels. - Ron Ballew
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Far too easy
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:39:50
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072923
PID: FM 2.02
> 13. Sun's Diameter
Come on. Your masters really need something new. Next?
~*~ "Evidence" is a dirty word if you don't have any. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: The rest: Debunked.
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:48:29
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072924
PID: FM 2.02
> 14. Nile River's Overflow
Status: Debunked.
Who knows what your masters have pretended to contrive here. Beyond a doubt
your master's occultism has been debunked, however. Perhaps you had best
ignore all the rest of your master's debunkings and explain this one so
that I have it one file.
> 15. Earth's Rotation
Status: Debunked
Creationist death cultists want to pretend that the rotation of the Earth
is slowing down at a rate which indicates that it couldn't have been rotating
at the huge rates it would need to were the rate to be projected backward
in time. This occult claim is easilly debunked by pointing out that the
loss of rotational velocity is due to both gravimetris breaking as well
as meteroric infall of materials as the Earth "sweeps" space. The rate of
gravimetric breaking and the fall of cosmic infall are in complete agreement
with the known age of the Earth.
> 16. Written Record
Status: Good science.
The "written record" archeology digs up proves beyond a doubt that the directly
observed fact of evolution has been and continues to go on unabaited.
> 17. The Bible
Status: Debunked.
The classical Christanic mythologies are frought with contradiction and
scientific impossibilities and inaccuracies. More: The occultism has nothing
to do with the directly observed fact of evolution.
~*~ I still can't make heads or tails or heads or
tails or heads or tails. . . out of it. - David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Anything else?
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:49:39
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072925
PID: FM 2.02
Don't your masters have _anything_ better? I would perfer something which
hasn't been debunked a thousand times this month already, Andy.
As you can see, each and every one of your master's claims was debunked
easilly. As such I expect you to not repeat your master's lies.
~*~ Now, you can go, put on a costume and dance around a tree but
for myself and my house, we will serve the Lord! - Don Geser
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: EPISTEMOLOGY
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:50:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072926
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 316c084f
PID: FM 2.02
>> If the subject is a material entity, yes. Science only applies to the
>> physical world. If there is anything beyond the physical world, it is
>> beyond the realm of science.
FR> Welp guess you might as well pretend pixies exist, huh?
lw> Welp, guess you might as well stop trying to argue from
lw> a scientific viewpoint about something that is beyond
lw> science's purview, huh?
Welp, looks like you're trying to pretend that "Pixic Evolution" is scientific,
huh?
~*~ "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade
of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders
will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- Thomas Jefferson, to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: NDE occult beliefs
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:51:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072927
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 316c0850
PID: FM 2.02
lw> Just as your materialistic bias is firmly entrenched in your
lw> mind when you read material on either side of the NDE question.
FR> That's one way to avoid the embarrassing truth: Pretend that medical
FR> science is just an unfounded opinion which can be easilly ignored.
lw> We're not talking about ignoring medical science. We're talking about
lw> refutations of theories proposed by scientists. Blackmore's has been
lw> shown not to adequately explain NDE phenomena.
That's one way to avoid the embarrassing truth: Claim the facts haven't
been "adequately explained" because they deny your occult beliefs.
Science doesn't _care_ about your occult beliefs, Lee. It's not that science
_can't_ explain your beliefs, it's that science doesn't concern itself with
claims of delusional belief.
~*~ I have a recurring nightmare about being a patient in my own ER.
- Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Adolph Hitler: Christian
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:53:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072928
REPLY: 1:215/130 000fdba7
PID: FM 2.02
>>Historians, of course, know otherwise: Hitler was a Christian.
>>He stated so many, many times.
> Really? Which historians? Do you have a reference or two I can look up?
Weren't the postings I offered you enough? If not, why not?
~*~ Maybe Heisenberg has Him in a headlock... He can select the
denomination of a church or target a particular city, but not both.
- jonny vee
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: LAURA HODGKINS
|Sub: Dangle that angles
|Date: 21 Apr 96 08:58:22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072929
REPLY: 1:322/746 5c9c7d3e
PID: FM 2.02
lh> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that
lh> it is possible to have seen one's guardian angel?
People who experience hypnopompic and hypnogogic hallucinations just before
falling asleep or just as upon waking up often believe that they experience
a "visitation" from an "angel." Because sleep poisons which paralysis muscels
during sleep to keep the body from getting up and walking away temporarilly
keep an individual who experiences the phenomena from moving, they often
believe that they're being "spiritually attacked" as well.
There's a cultist in this forum who pretends to believe in angels. Mark
someone. My guess is that he's going on what his masters told him rather
than upon his contrived beliefs as the result of a hallucination.
~*~ Find God? Why? Did she leave Pluto? -- Robert Curry
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: #holysmoke still going strong!
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:00:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807292a
REPLY: 1:3615/1.11 3163cc67
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Typical sign-in times are any time after 6:00p.m. Pacific, 8:00p.m.
FR> Central, and 10:00p.m. Eastern. If you're late, don't worry! The
FR> most "empty" of us are on until morning!
dw> Hey! That's enough of that shit, Jess...er, Fredric... :)
That response of yours is sure empty! Yeah, I'm gonna file a complaint
with the empty moderator! }:-}
~*~ If only more christians read their bibles there'd be less christians.
- Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: The Religious Reich Wing Graffiti.HTM
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:02:15
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807292b
REPLY: 1:3615/1.11 3163cd64
PID: FM 2.02
FR>
FR>
FR> Right Wing Graffiti
FR>
dw> I thought it was only fundies that refused to take the time to delete
dw> all the HTML code from crossposts. At least you tried to make sure the
dw> formatting stayed the same. :)
Why you... }:-}
I post HTML extentions in the event people want to include the page in their
own or wish to view it in its original. Some of the really lengthy stuff
I'll run UN-HTM.EXE on -- which I wrote specifically to remove the HTML
extentions.
dw> FYI: When saving a document with Netscape in windows, if you click on
dw> the little down arrow out beside the File Type box in the Save Dialog,
dw> you will see an option to save the document as a simple text file.
dw> Netscape will strip *most* of the HTML code for you.
I'll save text both ways.
~*~ adultery is O.K., - Charlie J. Ray
I've tried it, and I'd say it was "so-so," not "okay." - David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: ryan shaw
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:04:35
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807292c
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 16d3f612
PID: FM 2.02
> Today her plane was caught in a rain/thunderstorm and crashed, killing
> her, her father, and the instructor that was flying along with her.
>
> Would a all-powerful and loving god allow this to happen?
Fundy justification expected:
"Obviously the little bitch deserved what she had coming."
"The gods know what they're doing even though we do not. Trust the gods."
"She's not REALLY dead! No, she's with Jeh-heeeeee-zeus now!"
~*~ Did Galileo give up the Catholic faith even in the face of persecution
and the threat of excommunication? I think not. - Charlie Ray
...instead of giving up the faith, he gave up the truth. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get OVER it!
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:08:22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807292d
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> No wonder the _Christian_ Adolf Hitler got away with what he did wth
FR>> people like you around to justify it like he did -- with deity
FR>> constructs.
SW> Adolf hitler wasnt a Christian, he may have called himself one
SW> but he was just as far from Christianity as you seem to be.
It's amazing that people _STILL_ want to deny the truth about Hitler. They
seem to think that Christianity some how keeps people from inflicting inhuman
tyrannies against innocent people -- in direct contradiction to the world's
history.
bj> Some Hitler quotes from the alt.atheism faq:
bj>
bj> "The folkish minded-man, in particular, has the sacred duty,
bj> each in his own denomination, of making people stop just
bj> talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill
bj> God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated."
[...cuts...]
He's seen the truth before.
~*~ My kids are the four-legged kind. - Marguerite Kendall
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Lawrence Mccurry
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:09:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807292e
REPLY: 1:2424/104.0 895B3BC1
PID: FM 2.02
> There is only one holy smoke and my brothers and sisters are put into
> your jails everyday for smoking it...LET MY PEOPLE GO.... Tell your
> local political piggy that you want marijauna legalized Now!
> Or shall we rot in jail for growing a gift God gave to us all.
Oh you're a FINE example of the thoughtful, educated, well-reasoned individual
we want smoking pot and driving on your freeways, yes.
~*~ Your own science has found fossilized fish on the tops of HIGH
mountains. Do you think they took up mountain climbing some 70
gagillion years ago? - Greg Waggy (A New Age Creationist)
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: William Hsu
|Sub: Survey
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:12:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807292f
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 30b71d24
PID: FM 2.02
> Age: Gender:
None, male
> Denomination/Church group:
None
> Do you or your church emphasize on one particular belief or some
> particular beliefs? (Yes/No) If so, what are they?
N/A
> How would you define sin?
Fictional disease designed by greedy men to seel fictional "cures" for.
The single most deadly ideology as yet contrived by men.
> Do you believe that there is a relationship between sin
> and suffering? (Yes/No) Please explain why:
There is a direct relationship between the occult belief in "sin" and the
suffering of the better educated who don't believe in the occult.
> Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? (Yes/No)
> If Yes, on what basis do you believe people will be chosen for heaven?
Do you know the origins of these mythologies?
> Is it possible for non-Christians to go to Heaven? (Yes/No)
> Please explain your answer:
Do you have any evidence for the existance of this "Heaven" of yours?
> Please describe what you think Heaven and Hell are like:
Heaven is a world without religion. Hell (and misery) is religion.
~*~ your hearts and flowers crap is going to have to wait - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Buttfuck Hardly makes a fool of himself - again
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:16:11
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072930
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895C4391
PID: FM 2.02
mh> Enough people have indicated that I am somehow making a fool
mh> of myself here lately that I'm beginning to believe them.
Hardly. You made a fool of yourself the very first day you showed up here
and demanded that you had gods -- then you proceeded to ignore the requests
for your evidence.
Yes, but guessing such counterintuitive facts as the world
is round is pretty far-fetched. - Michael Hardy (A fundie)
Yes, it DOES require faith to actively disbelieve in Santa
Claus. - Michael Hardy
God is experiential. - Michael Hardy
Just as I figured. YOU are full of shit. You are a lying
bastard. - Michael Hardy (HolySmoke: Fundy Meltdown)
I would have answered it. However, I am not going to be
ordered around by you. Therefore, no answer will be offered.
- Michael Hardy
Run, don't walk, away from this echo.
- Michael Hardy (Fundy cultist talking about the HolySmoke echo)
~*~ Why continue to debate such a mute point. - Chris Vetter
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Eakle
|Sub: Christian cultists
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:18:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072931
REPLY: 1:213/742.0 316c68cc
PID: FM 2.02
> Hey all Christians are not self-centered and they do not
> always tell you you will be sorry if you are not.
Well, you can certainly chose to deny the truth if you find it embarrassing,
Jerry. In actual fact Christanic death cultists _ALL_ deny the history
of their death cult to the point where they demand that what their cult
has been respnsible for in the past and what it continues to do today to
innocent people is somehoe contrary to what the cult was created for.
That's pretty self-centered, Jerry.
~*~ The event had all the marks of a work of Satan. - J. J. Hitt
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Renee Deyoe
|Sub: Question
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:22:16
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072932
REPLY: 1:3621/22 316db251
PID: FM 2.02
rd> I see no religious debate here..so either this is in the
rd> wrong place and my mail tosser is wacky or this Preston
rd> Simpson is just being nasty..
It could be your mail feed not passing everything on to your system. You
should be getting something like 200 or 300 messages every two days or so
at least.
Or are you trying to pretend that you're not seeing the debunking of religious
occultism because you're embarrassed by how easilly it's debunked?
~*~ They (Creationists) have the same loss for words that afflicts a
child who knows he's been caught in a blatant lie. - Al Nevison
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Christanic slavery - 1 of 3
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:24:29
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072933
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895D0E28
PID: FM 2.02
Someone mentioned people arguing about slavery with those in
favor of slavery quoting some verses and those opposed quoting
others. Well I'll tell ya, those opposed to slavery have got
the shorter list of verses! It comes as a surprise to most
people, but the Bible is explicitly PRO slavery. That is, it
explicitly authorizes chattel slavery. That's the type of slavery
we had in America before the Civil war - where humans are property
and other humans own them.
Here's the verse that authorizes slavery:
LEVITICUS 25:44 'As for your male and female slaves whom
you may have - you may acquire male and female slaves from
the pagan nations that are around you.
(Note: the King James Version consistently euphemises the "slave"
as "servant". However, servants can't be bought and sold. Every
other translation I've seen uses "slave", as above.)
Generally, there are different classes of slaves and owners. The
most privileged class of slaves are male Israelis owned by
foreigners. Their freedom can be repurchased at any time by the
slave or his relatives and the owner has to sell him back. The
repurchase price is on a sliding scale and gets smaller every year
of captivity. After a certain number of years, the slave must be
freed without charge.
The next class of slave is a male Israeli owned by an Israeli. They
also have to be released after a certain number of years, but their
owner doesn't have to sell them back their freedom before that date
unless he wants to.
The lowest class of slave is a foreigner owned by an Israeli or
an Israeli woman owned by anybody. They have about the same status
as a slave in ante-bellum America. You can keep them forever.
There are some restrictions on how cruelly you can treat your
slaves. If you poke a slave's eye out or knock out a tooth, you
have to release him. If you beat a slave so hard that he dies
quickly, you're in unspecified trouble, but if he survives the
beating for a day or two, you're off the hook because, after all,
he was your property.
Many Christians might assume that the New Testament reverses this
and condemns slavery, but it doesn't. There are frequent
exhortations for slaves to obey their masters. The entire book
of Philemon is a letter from Paul to Philemon, who is the owner
of the runaway slave that Paul is sending back to him!
I get the impression that the NT writers would have preferred to
condemn slavery and help free the slaves, but politically, they
would have been in deep, and I mean deep as in dead, trouble with
the Roman government if they had done so. By NT times, the
Romans were deathly afraid of slave revolts and Christians were
widely suspected to be more sympathetic to slaves than to masters.
In fact, many of them were slaves.
Actually, the OT passages about slavery seem to have been written
by the wealthy and powerful class that was likely to own slaves
while the NT passages were written by people who were far more
likely to be slaves someday that to own them.
Here are all the slavery verses that I know of in the Bible, but
there may very well be more. Read them, look them up in the Bible
so you have them in context and never miss an opportunity to share
this valuable Bible knowledge with proselytizing Christians. They're
a wonderful example of Biblical morality.
~*~ As long as there are exams, there will be prayer in schools!
- William Putnam
Studying for exams out performs prayers by 100%. - George Rudzinski
------------------------------------------------
Old Testament
LEVITICUS 25:44 'As for your male and female slaves whom you
may have - you may acquire male and female slaves from the
pagan nations that are around you.
LEVITICUS 25:45 'Then too, it is out of the sons of the
sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain
acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom
they will have produced in your land; they also may become your
possession.
LEVITICUS 25:46 'You may even bequeath them to your sons after
you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent
slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel,
you shall not rule with severity over one another.
LEVITICUS 25:47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner
with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so
poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is
sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family,
48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold.
One of his brothers may redeem him,
49 or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him;
or if he prospers, he may redeem himself.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Christanic slavery - 2 of 3
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:24:43
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072934
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895D0E28
PID: FM 2.02
50 'He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when
he sold himself to him up to the year of jubilee; and the price of
his sale shall correspond to the number of years. It is like the
days of a hired man that he shall be with him.
51 'If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his
purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption;
52 and if few years remain until the year of jubilee, he shall so
calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the
amount for his redemption.
53 'Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he
shall not rule over him with severity in your sight.
54 'Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still
go out in the year of jubilee, he and his sons with him.
55 "For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants
whom I brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
EXODUS 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six
years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without
payment.
EXODUS 21:3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is
the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
EXODUS 21:4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him
sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her
master, and he shall go out alone.
EXODUS 21:5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my
wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man.'
EXODUS 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall
bring him to the door or the door post. And his master shall
pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
EXODUS 21:7 "And if a man sells his daughter as a female slave,
she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
EXODUS 21:8 "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who
designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed.
He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people
because of his unfairness to her.
EXODUS 21:9 "And if he designates her for his son, he shall deal
with her according to the custome of daughters.
EXODUS 21:10 "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not
reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
EXODUS 21:11 "And if he will not do these three things for her,
then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
EXODUS 21:20 "And if a man strikes his male or female slave with
a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
EXODUS 21:21 "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance
shall be taken; for he is his property.
EXODUS 21:26 "And if a man strikes the eye of his male or female
slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of
his eye.
EXODUS 21:27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female
slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave,
betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom,
an inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because
she was not free;
LEVITICUS 22:11 'But if a priest buys a slave as his property with
his money, that one may eat of it, and those that are born in his
house may eat of his food.
LEVITICUS 25:39 'And if a countryman of yours becomes so poor
with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not
subject him to a slave's service.
40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a
sojourner with you, until the year of jubilee.
41 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him,
and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the
property of his forefathers.
42 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the
land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale.
43 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to
revere your God.
DEUTERONOMY 15:12 "If your kinsman, a Hebrew man or woman, is
sold to you, then he shall serve you six years, but in the
seventh year you shall set him free.
~*~ I am not a bozo - Dan Lafferty
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Christanic slavery - 3 of 3
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:24:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072935
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895D0E28
PID: FM 2.02
DEUTERONOMY 15:13 "And when you set him free, you shall not send him
away empty-handed.
DEUTERONOMY 15:14 "You shall furnish him liberally from your flock
and from your threshing floor and from your wine vat; you shall give
to him as the Lord your God has blessed you.
DEUTERONOMY 15:15 "And you shall remember that you were a slave in
the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I
command you this today.
DEUTERONOMY 15:16 "And it shall come about it if he ways to you, 'I
will not go out from you.' because he loves you and your household,
since he fare well with you;
DEUTERONOMY 15:17 then you shall take an awl and pierce it through
his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever. And
also you shall do likewise to your maidservant.
DEUTERONOMY 15:18 "It shall not seem hard to you when you set him
free, for he has given you six years with double the service of a
hired man; so the Lord your God will bless you in whatever you do.
Ecc 2:7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who
were born in my house; I had also great possessions of herds and
flocks, more than any who had been before me in Jerusalem.
ISAIAH 14:2 And the peoples will take them and bring them to
their place, and the house of Israel will posses them in the LORD's
land as male and female slaves; they will take captive those who
were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them.
New Testament
1 CORINTHIANS 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry
about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's
freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.
23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in
which he was called.
EPHESIANS 6:5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity
of your heart, as to Christ;
6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of
Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
COLOSSIANS 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your
masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely
please men, but with sincerety of heart, fearing the Lord.
COLOSSIANS 4:1 Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness,
knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.
1 TIMOTHY 6:1 Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their
own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our
doctrine may not be spoken against.
2 And let those who have believers as their masters not be
disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but let them serve
them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are
believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
TITUS 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in
everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn
the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
Dave Mullenix
~*~ Instead of the mandatory moment of silence, how about
a mandatory moment of science? - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Slavery justified by the Christanic mythologies
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:26:02
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072937
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895D0E28
PID: FM 2.02
FR> The next time someone demands that Christianity is anything
FR> other than evil, that should dispell the myth.
dc> I only got part 3, 2 times, but very differnent in content...
dc> Could your resend on this Echo?
I sent the file here and in email.
~*~ Mark 16:15-18. I'll use chemistry, you use the Bible.
You will be deader than your saviour. - George Rudzinski
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:29:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072938
REPLY: 1:124/9005 316e0dfc
PID: FM 2.02
ryan shaw
rs> Would a all-powerful and loving god allow this to happen?
sq> Oh, come on, Ryan! Go for the easy out:
sq> "It must have been Satan!" :-/
Or they'll demand that their gods were mercyful because the airplane missed
crashing into an appartment complex, killing even more innocent people.
sq> Tornado season is getting ready to whiz through Texas again...
sq> how many churches will Yahweh get this year?
Oh but they're not TRUE REALLY TRUE Christian churches!
~*~ God doesn't believe in atheists - Johnny Mckinney
Good, perhaps he'll leave us alone, now. - Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Malady Keane
|Sub: Omni-impotence
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:30:52
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 38072939
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 316d95a0
PID: FM 2.02
> After reading some of the posts here, I would like to put forth some
> ideas I have concerning God's alleged omniscience, omnipotence and what
> not. I do not believe that God is Omni ANYTHING.
This all presupposes the existance of gods. Without evidence for the existance
of gods, one may as well be demanding that pixies, fairies, and vampires
aren't "omni-anything."
~*~ Good grief. Guess he's never read the bible he is thumping. - David
Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: why I will not rate my site
|Date: 21 Apr 96 09:31:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3807293a
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 16e755ee
PID: FM 2.02
> Why I Will Not Rate My Site
> by Jonathan Wallace jblumen@spectacle.org
Not to mention the fact that the Men In Black already have your sight targeted,
huh?
~*~ 1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they
have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and
suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. -- Christian Family Values
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER (YAWN)
|Date: 06 Apr 96 14:13:00
EID:4b42 208671a0
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Larry Bevard <=-
FR> I would suggest that you divest yourself of that embarrassing
FR> ignorance. Might I suggest some easy reading materials for you?
Sorry, Fred, I think Dr. Seuss is a bit beyond him.
... *BOOM!* Intel OUTSIDE!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: EVIDENCE[SIC]
|Date: 06 Apr 96 14:17:00
EID:9d8f 20867220
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to John Brawley <=-
FR> Amazing. Blame someone else for YOU not being able to provide your
FR> evidence to back up YOUR claims.
No, Fred, this time you are hitting the wrong person. Whatever I think
about Brawley, it is despicable for george to hold John's property as a
way of silencing him. It is more on a level of what we expect from the
worst fundies.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: THUMB-SUCKING FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 07:22:00
EID:a61a 20873ac0
-=> Quoting Mimi Milstein to J.j. Hitt <=-
MM> it's 'kitchen-Swahili' for the same thing, as used by colonial
MM> Brits in the 'good old days' :-)
Mimi, you're back. The Masai Girl Scouts I had staying with me a few years
back told me that it is an insult to a human and the word is almost always
used for a chimp that has not started getting around on its own.
But then, the Brits weren't ones for being overly 'nice' in their epithets
for the native population, were they?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Stuart Lumgair
|Sub: CONSTITUTION OF FSU
|Date: 07 Apr 96 07:30:00
EID:9bba 20873bc0
-=> Quoting Stuart Lumgair to Judith Bandsma <=-
SL> all that stuff with the job situation has worked out in
SL> your favour. Well, gotta run.
Worked out pretty good, considering.... Will get a message off to you
internet.
... *BOOM!* Intel OUTSIDE!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: RABIES SHOTS ANYONE?
|Date: 07 Apr 96 16:25:00
EID:3287 20878320
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JH> Yet somehow I've got this funny notion that he's opposed to
JH> sex education and easy affordable access to contraceptives.
Oh yeah. According to him, you tell kids 'no sex before marriage' (sorry,
didn't feel like using my capslock) and enforce it with chores and physical
exercise and locking them in their room if necessary.
Parents OWN their kids...pure and simple. Gospel according to Bryan.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE O
|Date: 07 Apr 96 17:40:00
EID:d144 20878d00
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to Judith Bandsma <=-
LB> They except no public assistance, their money comes from ddonations
LB> and dues. so, if anyone does not like it, they don't have to jion.
If you mean ACCEPT public assistance...you are dead wrong. Both BSA and
GSUSA have governmental charters and are funded through United Way. Try
having a government job and NOT donating to UW.
BTW, did you know about the affair between Juliet Lowe and Lord Baden-Powell?
The founders of both organizations were not as lily-white as you would like
to believe.
... Quaker threat: Pardon, brother--thou standst where I'm about to shoot.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 07 Apr 96 17:31:00
EID:3d5e 20878be0
-=> Quoting Larry Bevard to Karen Davis <=-
LB> CBS had a two hour special on the Ark several years ago, and
LB> address some of these questions. According to the biblical account
I guess you missed the confession by the guy who did this that it was all
a hoax. He even showed how he made the 'ark wood' in his own oven with soy
sauce. You really should be more careful what you cite as evidence.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 08 Apr 96 07:24:00
EID:77d6 20883b00
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Karl Schneider <=-
KS> G. Schiaparelli 'discovered' the 'canali' on Mars in 1877.
DC> With a date like that, maybe both!
I pointed out the same thing to Germy and got back a diatribe on 'using
a typo to try to humiliate him'.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Craig
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:03:00
EID:c90e 20886860
PID: RA 2.5.g1 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 5707ac28
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 160026fe
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
SR>107/411 123/1 43 67
SR>920 157/586 167/92
SR>Mark Craig wrote in a message to All:
SR> MC> At the end of the 1000 years Satan will seduce the nations of the
SR> MC> earth, prior to the end of the world
SR>*burp*. Ah...that was good soda. So tell us, fundy. Does
SR>this mean we do not have to pay our taxes this year? Please
SR>say yes.
I didn't know kikes paid taxes?
---
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/319 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:18:29
EID:f1fb 20887a40
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31696685
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: 1 god plus 1 god plus wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> YES VIRGINIA THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS !!!
PS> A possibly better example:
PS> 500 years ago, most people believed that the earth was flat. Does this
PS> mean that 500 years ago, the earth really *was* flat?
JG> Perhaps not technically, But as far as the people concerned it was.
So what? Belief does not shape reality, Jim. You can believe that a 30-kilo
anvil dropped from 500 feet isn't going to smash you into bits if it hits
your head, but that's not going to keep it from doing so should the event
occur.
JG> Just as it wouldn't take much to flood the world, considering what
JG> the "known world" of that time consisted of. Much different than the
JG> world we know of.
Ah. Was Jesus not really crucified, then, if the flood was not really
global?
... "Bother," said Pooh, as he failed another melee combat roll.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: ADOLPH HITLER
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:18:30
EID:3fe5 20887a40
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31696686
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: ADOLPH HITLER wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> certainly has become your god. OR is your god the spiritual truth that
JG> THOU SHALT NOT KILL ?!?!?
PS> This last has got to be the idiocy of the millenium. Every person
PS> kills something every day. Telling people not to kill would be telling
PS> them to commit suicide, which is killing itself. It's a Catch-22
PS> situation.
JG> Well I don't know what you define as idiocy. But I would suggest you
JG> at least try and get with the program and take the verses in context
In context with what? God's rampant slaughter of the Egyptian firstborn?
His command to kill small children? The flood? Why should I obey a god
that tells me not to kill when he ran around killing unnecessarily?
JG> of what the writer intended. Actually I believe even this word "kill"
JG> has been misinterpreted and is more related to the word we know as
JG> "murder", which has something to do with criminal intent. Unjustified
Referring to a command not to kill as a "spiritual truth" is pretty lame,
Jim. It's not a "spiritual truth" in any sense of the word--it's a
guideline at best. Truth applies to statements, not to commands. Got it?
JG> killing of another human being. But then of course you sound like some
JG> one who really doesn't care what the "intent" of the message is, just
JG> in finding a reason to ridicule it.
Now, Jim, you really *shouldn't* be judging people that way. After all,
Jesus told you not to, didn't he?
... "He will not be permanently damaged." - Vader
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:18:30
EID:3d64 20887a40
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31696687
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> I merely reiterate that any murders done on earth have been done by
JG> people CLAIMING it was gods will.
PS> And they may even have been right. After all, the Bible doesn't lie,
PS> does it?
JG> It is not so much a question of lieing, as it is "perception". That
JG> was their TRUE "perception" of God, they may have been mistaken.
But then again, they may not have been, correct?
JG> Or it may have been the only language the people of that time
JG> understood. Just as the only language a school yard bully might
JG> understand is when the people he is picking on knock him on his own
JG> butt. It may not be the "right" thing to do per se , but it may be what
JG> some people might call a "necessary evil".
Why is killing children a "necessary evil," Jim?
JG> And while god may have allowed people to follow their murderous
JG> desires and to protect themselves from said people, he certainly does
JG> not desire that his children kill one another or themselves.
PS> Then why doesn't he stop them?
JG> Because being human means having the CHOICE to disobey god.
Couldn't an omnipotent god have found a way around that?
JG> If there is a moderator on this base, I would appreciate not having
to
JG> take this kind of verbal abuse .
PS> Too bad. The conference guidelines, while suggesting that this is not
PS> the best way to interact with others, does not specifically prohibit
PS> such communication.
JG> Fine, but it certainly does nothing for his credibility.
Point being?
PS> I note with interest that you are not addressing David's point.
JG> As far as his "point" goes, it is obvious that the spirit of Jesus is
Obvious to whom?
JG> alive to this very day, in fact we are now about to celebrate easter,
A holiday stolen from the pagans.
JG> we have just celebrated CHRISTmas his birthday. I hear many people
Another holiday stolen from the pagans. So what?
JG> give credit to the spirit of Jesus Christ for changing their lives from
JG> hurting and hating others to helping and loving others. And in my own
Was it the actual spirit, or their perception of this spirit that made
such changes possible? Or was it simple human effort, no gods required?
JG> life he is continually speaking to me and helping me face the truth
JG> about myself. And that is what Jesus is all about. "I am the way the
And he is not doing so in my life and never did, even when I was a
Christian. Why are you blessed with this privilege?
JG> enter one of those childish "war" bases they have on some bbses. I come
JG> here to exchange ideas and relax and enjoy myself. Too bad some people
JG> feel the need to spoil the atmosphere with crude comments and insults.
Pity. Your notions of relaxing and enjoying yourself may be at variance
with theirs. Diversity is a wonderful thing.
JG> Being comfortable with yourself, has nothing to do with accepting the
JG> abuse of others. Criticism I can take, but I will speak up when and
It has plenty to do with it. I am, by nature, a quiet and self-assured
young man. I don't get angry when people insult me and I don't particularly
care if someone decides to render his opinion of me in langauge that
others might find offensive. Why? Because I know that it's just an
opinion, and opinions alone can't bother me.
... Doubt is the root of education, not faith.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:18:30
EID:e580 20887a40
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31696688
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Larry Bevard Angel Fundy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LB> things they did not consider was the possiblity that the high
LB> mountains that we see now did not exist at that time. Reading the
Really? And pray, how does a mountain range form in 4000 years?
LB> biblical account very literally, the earth is discribed as having only
LB> one land mass and one large sea. There was also no rain before the
LB> flood. Also, not only was there rain coming down, but the discription
None before the flood, eh? How did plants get nourished?
LB> this would have broke up the land mass, and brought about mountains
LB> from the violent earthquakes that would have happened when the well
LB> springs of the earth was openned. I do agree that this is all
"Violent earthquakes" doesn't say it, Larry. That kind of tectonic movement
in such a short span of time would probably have created tsunamis enough
to destroy the ark.
... The desk had just got fundamentally fed up with being where it was.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: scott bear
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:18:30
EID:dd09 20887a40
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31696689
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dan Ceppa scott bear wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DC> Why does that sound like a perfect echo to what I replied? :)
PS> Because this is an echo, silly.
DC> It was a rhetorical question, was a rhetorical question, a
DC> rhetorical question, rhetorical question, question, ..tion.... :)
Er. Yeah.
... WINTER: Something that rich people go south during.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: TENNESSEE COMMAND
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:18:30
EID:b1df 20887a40
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3169668a
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dan Ceppa TENNESSEE COMMAND wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> One may hope. But at least the thing isn't going to be enforced.
DC> Unfortunately, from what Al said, it won't. It's because of that
DC> that it won't get the real test that it needs: A reality check.
True 'nuff.
... 105 mm, when you care enough to send the very best.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: detwitting twits
|Date: 08 Apr 96 17:13:37
EID:0818 208889a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31699590
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895543D1
MH> I had resisted creating a twit filter for two years, because I
MH> felt that I should do my own filtering. I finally twitted a few people,
MH> because their posts to me were consistently pointless.
MH> However, after a few weeks, I've decided that I preferred it the
MH> old way. I've turned off the twit filters, and will return to doing
my
MH> own filtering.
Hey, who was the "secret twit", btw?
... Prophylacteries: For those who like to play when they pray.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
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PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 08 Apr 96 17:16:54
EID:a905 20888a00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31699591
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3162af50
DM> Lynda Bustilloz said "[1/2] Losing the Labels" to All,
DM> adding:
LB> I expect there will be those here who will crow that they KNEW I
LB> wasn't a True Christian, and be very relieved not to have to deal with
LB> me on their "team". There will also be those who read this with sorrow
LB> (Al, I am deeply sorry for that). There will be some who claim it as
LB> a "kill" and perhaps do a little victory dance, and I hope there will
LB> be a few who realize that while this is no occasion for rejoicing, it
LB> does not mean that I have changed in regards to who I am -- just in
LB> what I call myself. And of course there will be many who simply don't
LB> care.
Okay, it seems I missed something here in the last month.
(Funny how you lose touch with people when someone new comes
into your life, n'est-ce pas?) This is all I've seen of
your post (and I snicked this one off Don's reply to you),
but what's going on here?
... If evolution is outlawed, then only outlaws will evolve.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Branham
|Date: 08 Apr 96 17:41:03
EID:8f26 20888d20
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31699592
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64d9697b
AS> Oh! Talking of reports of miracles. I wasn't having much
AS> success finding an unbiased report of Brother Branham, so I
AS> went to the web page about him. He was born in Kentucky
AS> around 1909, evidently heard voices from angels at a young
AS> age.
JH> Good stuff.. saved to disk.
JH> See if you can snag a bibliography.
JH> (When I go used bookshopping I generally forget authors, but always
JH> remember titles.)
Guess what's gonna be the death of me? I acquired a discount
card at a store called Books-A-Million, which supposedly claims
that many volumes in its stock. I haven't been in the place to
look around yet. I'm afraid...very very afraid.
... It was at that point I realized...that I didn't want a pickle.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 08 Apr 96 17:51:01
EID:e756 20888e60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31699593
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64e2ad4d
JH> About a year ago my employer instituted a dress code. It was
JH> announced as "our new, relaxed dress code". The problem was, that
JH> prior to the announcement, we DID NOT HAVE a dress code. An almost
JH> textbook example of how to sound like you are giving people
JH> something while you actually take something from them.
JH>
Well, it _was_ Elron himself who said words to the effect
of 'if you want to enslave people, tell them you're going
to give them total freedom.'
... "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: #holysmoke still going strong!
|Date: 08 Apr 96 17:55:50
EID:5031 20888ee0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31699594
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 2f944bad
> Typical sign-in times are any time after 6:00p.m. Pacific, 8:00p.m.
> Central,
SM> AHEM!!
Do the math, Sean.
> and 10:00p.m. Eastern. If you're late, don't worry! The
> most "empty" of us are on until morning!
Time to buy more shares in Folger's...
... Happiness is 9,10-Didehydo-N,N-diethyl-6-methylergoline-8B-carboxamide
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:39:21
EID:6b94 208894e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31699595
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64fb570e
MB> Statistics like that are of limited value. We don't know
MB> how many times a homeowner pointed a gun at a burglar only
MB> to have the burglar turn and run.
JH> Yes we do. Those are the burglars who are shot in the back instead
JH> of the chest.
That's why you have to use a really big gun with a bullet
that'll go all the way through. You can turn the body around
for when the cops come.
... fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Ducks?
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:39:22
EID:8f5c 208894e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31699596
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3168243d
SA> That's a good possiblity, however horrible it is to think that
SA> someone actually tried to poison the city's birds.
DM> The world contains a number of shits. I remember reading about
DM> guys on Louisiana fishing boats stuffing lye into small fish and
DM> throwing them to the gulls to watch their distress. They thought
DM> painful death was funny. Probably all Christians.
And Baptist ones at that. Swamp Catholics would never waste
a fish.
Seems like a lot of trouble. Down here, we just take a loaf
of bread and a box of Alka-Seltzers out to the beach. You
gotta toss the gulls some bread first to gain their trust.
Then you toss 'em some of the ol' seltzer. Gives new meaning
to plop-plop fizz-fizz--they drop out of the sky and foam gushes
out of their mouths. Yee-haw!
Next, I'll tell ya whut we do to Yankee gastanks with a bag
of pure cane sugar...
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Question
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:22:46
EID:4fc2 208892c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316991b6
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Craig Question wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MC> Recently a pyramid was built in Memphis. It is similar to the
MC> pyramid on the dollar-bill, except in place of the eye, the top is
MC> blue. I understand that there is occult symbolism there. Would anyone
MC> like to elaborate?
Yes. You're a fucking nut who sees conspiracies everywhere in a feeble
effort to disguise the fact that you're really a worthless bag of shit
who couldn't get a clue if they were free.
... This is more fun than sucking on a 9 volt battery.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: End Times
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:22:46
EID:208c 208892c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316991b7
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Craig End Times wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MC> We are truly living in last days: there are so many false prophets
MC> and false teachers, they even have their own seminars and conventions.
And you're *not* a "false" prophet or teacher?
MC> Do you notice how they all seem to hate Catholics and love Jews?
MC> Could this be a Zionist deception?
Could it be that you're an imbecilic twit with no more brains than a
cabbage?
... Go ahead. Give your life to Christ. You obviously don't want it.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
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SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: better than
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:22:46
EID:0cb4 208892c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316991b8
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Don Martin better than wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Except for the good lookin' bit, my part fits well. My face is
PS> more practical than attractive.
DM> Your nose is just there to function as a glasses-perch--that
DM> sort of thing?
Something like that. A nail could do the job just as well.
... Carpe DM: Seize the Dungeon Master.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: evidence...
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:22:47
EID:11c5 208892c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316991b9
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Don Martin evidence... wgah'nagl fhtagn.
FR> You've obviously never learn geology, paleontology, archeology, or
FR> asked why the Chinese failed to notice their own obliteration.
DM> The Chinese are a notoriously stubborn people.
True 'nuff. Some of them ate ground-up rocks during a famine. They all
died (stomach hemorraging, as I recall), but it says volumes about
a people's grim determination to hang on to life (or sheer desperation)
that they'd eat fucking rocks. I'm of the opinion that anybody from
Asia proper is probably the kind of person that could survive anything
up to and including a global flood or a nuclear war.
... Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Ken Peck
|Sub: Chrysostom's Pasha Homily
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:22:47
EID:66f3 208892c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316991ba
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Ken Peck Chrysostom's Pasha Homily wgah'nagl fhtagn.
KP> If anyone be devout and a lover of God, enjoy this beautiful and
KP> radiant Feast of Feasts!
Ah, I have fond memories of Easter. My mother forcing me to get baptized,
spending a couple of hours in a bathroom with a knife trying to kill
myself, all sorts of fun things.
KP> If anyone is a wise servant, rejoice and enter into the joy of the
KP> Lord.
Is this the same god that killed the Egyptian firstborn?
KP> first. He has mercy on the last, and cares for the first, to the one
Is this the same god that said, "Now kill therefore every male among the
little ones, and every woman that hath known man by lying with him"?
KP> He gives, and to the other He is gracious. He both honors the work,
KP> and praises the intention.
Then why do some Christians insist that people like Gandhi are going to
hell?
KP> He that was taken by Death has annihilated it!
People still die, you acephalic dweeb.
... Ever lob a live grenade into a basket of kittens?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: 19055730964
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:22:47
EID:bd68 208892c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316991bb
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh J.J. Hitt 19055730964 wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LS>> Laszlo Sokolai
LS>> Team ANTI-Windows95/PRO-OS2/PRO-UNIX/PRO-XENIX/PRO-DOS
LS>> lsokolai@bbs42.com
LS>> lsokolai@albedo.net
PS> Hey, shithead. Deal with your problems in a more efficient
PS> manner.
JH> Laszlo is about to get a SHITLOAD of mail he wasn't expecting.
And not in this echo, either. There must be a God. Who else
would send me a target when I needed one?
... He's going to be resurrected. There's still money to be made.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:22:47
EID:a30f 208892c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316991bc
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh J.J. Hitt False Prophets wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JH> Isreal, they're Khazars or something else. Anglo-Saxon white people
JH> are the real Israel. Blacks are the sons of Cain which makes them
The WASPs, eh? How does this boob reconcile the fact that the Jews were
from the Middle East, and the Anglo-Saxons from Germany via England?
JH> somewhat less than fully human. Homosexuals should be stoned.
Sounds like a fun guy. Does he have an address that I can send shit to?
JH> If that's a "Zionist Stooge" I'd hate to see what the real racists
JH> are like.
It was a pointless insult. I figured it might get his hackles up
enough to say something other than, "Your mammy is calling you."
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
SEEN-BY: 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809
SEEN-BY: 218/907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ALICE COOPER & GAIMAN
|Date: 06 Apr 96 01:03:00
EID:6b6d 20860860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04098D56
AS> I've recommended this to other people, but if you come across some
AS> of the trade paperback editions of a DC Comic called SANDMAN by Neil
AS> Gaiman, I heartily recommend them. An adult comic in the best sense
AS> of the word, it uses mythology, folklore, and imagination in a way
AS> quite literate.
MH> Gaiman did a comic as a companion to Alice Cooper's album "The Last
MH> Temptation." You wouldn't happen to have that or know where I could
get
MH> it, would you? As I understand it, it was a three-installment graphic
MH> novel. It may or may not have been reissued in a single volume.
Well, I got the first of the three parts; it was all right, but not great,
so I didn't get the others. I MIGHT still have it...not ALL my comics went
up in smoke, only about half...but if there is a comics shop in your area,
just go out there and look among the back issues. I doubt it would be very
much right now.
... Can I speak Esperanto? Like a native!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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PATH: 116/19 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: WEST
|Date: 06 Apr 96 04:01:00
EID:9135 20862020
MSGID: 1:116/19 040992B0
AS> Could be. But was the West, now thoroughly glamorized, where every
AS> man could wear a pistol, so excessively polite?
MH> Are you referring to the Mae West? "Is that a pistol in your pocket,
or
MH> ... ?"
I'm a pistol and my nine year old is a son of a gun.
... Two bees or not two bees...Oops! Bumbled that one!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 116/19 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
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PATH: 116/19 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 04:02:00
EID:3b8d 20862040
MSGID: 1:116/19 040997BA
AS> Ahhh, I see. You think pacifism is an absolute, and there is no such
AS> thing as lesser or greater pacifism. Fair enough. Some people use it
AS> in a different way...like I'm more pacifistic than Patton but less so
AS> than Mahatma Gandhi. But if you hold it as an absolute, I'll not so
AS> misuse the term.
MH> They're not Real True Pacifists.
"I'm more pacifistic than you are!"
"Yeah? Step outside and say that!..."
... I came, I saw, got sidetracked, forgot why I was here ..
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 116/19 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 116/19 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ISMS
|Date: 06 Apr 96 04:03:00
EID:ae09 20862060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04099C56
AS> BTW, I read a recent article that says there can be a danger
AS> in promoting self-esteem too much...that certain types of
AS> criminals rate too HIGH on self-esteem, and that by pushing
AS> it TOO much, we could be promoting some types of
AS> criminality...sociopathic behavior, con men, people like
AS> that. I'll see if I can find the article, I think you might
AS> be interested.
MB> I could have written the article. We have had quite a "discussion"
MB> at work about spending company resources on "Take our Daughters to
MB> Work Day." I am against it. The "day" was rammed into corporate
MB> consciousness by a bunch of ultra-feminists who were long on dogma
MB> and damned short on critical thinking. It was an outgrowth of a
MB> "study" that was done that, if read closely, came to exactly the
MB> opposite conclusion from what the brain-dead fundy-feminists said
MB> it came to.
There are a lot of women at my work. The few daughters who come along
look bored to tears, on that day.
MB> In short, a survey was done of a bunch of 11-17 year-olds to
MB> determine their "self-esteem." The numbers proported to support
MB> the "fact" that little girls suffer a sharp decline in the self-
MB> esteem level at about the age of 14. And, of course, the "answer"
MB> to this "problem" was to invent TODTWD.
MB> Well, a closer examination of the study (which, incidentally is
MB> almost impossible to get in any form except the predigested form
MB> that NOW wants you to see ala their brochures), actually shows,
MB> according to the questions that were asked, that BLACK MALES have
MB> the HIGHEST SELF-ESTEEM OF ANY OF THE GROUPS THAT WERE TESTED! One
MB> can easily conclude from that data point alone that self-esteem is
MB> a bad thing. What group has the highest crime rate? highest school
MB> drop-out rate? highest unemployment rate? lowest college-graduate
MB> rate?
MB> And, which group of those tested has the LOWEST crime rate? LOWEST
MB> school drop-out rate? LOWEST unemployment rate? HIGHEST college-
MB> graduate rate? You guessed it: white females, who scored the
MB> lowest on the self-esteem scale.
I think what I read is a follow-up to the same thing.
MB> I had a sort of running battle with the people in Human Resources
MB> via e-mail regarding the validity of the whole TODTWD concept. Had
MB> any study been done that would indicate that spending ONE DAY out
MB> of 365 would in any way ameliorate this dive in self-esteem? was
MB> there any scientific study done that indicated that a low self-
MB> esteem was truly a "bad" thing? Did the study that was done
MB> adequately delineate between "self-esteem" and bravado, "low self-
MB> esteem and an honest assessment of one's strengths and weaknesses?
MB> etc.
MB> The "answers I got were entirely unsatisfactory.
MB> The thing that raised the questions in my head to begin with was
MB> finding out that one of my colleagues had teen-aged twins -- one a
MB> boy, one a girl -- who, she was told, would have to be split up
MB> for the day -- one remaining in school, the other spending the day
MB> at Mom and Dad's workplace. She opted to leave both of them in
MB> school that day. But the gross unfairness of that corporate
MB> decision got me to thinking a bit deeper, and I came up with the
MB> above argument.
This is one where I agree with you TOTALLY on; and quite frankly, it
creeps into the religious sphere quite badly, and it is one of the few
things (besides politics and Genesis) that I have a serious
disagreement with my preacher on, although we're good friends otherwise.
There are many preachers...and mine tends that way...who preach a Gospel
of Dale Carnegie. Who would rather people have good self-esteem than be
saved. They have bought the myth that with a good self-image you can do
anything.
That's not been my experience in life. Oh, those whose talents excel
know it and are confident in it. But I think many of these sales types
are doing a mantra, self-hypnotizing themselves with their positive
self-image stuff. And once they hit a crisis that got in the way of thier
self-image, their self-image shatters, leaving it worse than it was
before. I think the best way to get a good self-image is to help others
and see their gratitude and their esteem of you reflected in their eyes.
That cannot be taken away.
Interestingly for a religious person, this is almost the exact OPPOSITE
of what Jesus taught. "The greatest are those who serve most".."the first
shall be last",,,there are instructions to sit at the foot of the table,
so the master of the house might ask you to move up, rather than sit at
the place of honor and be embarassed when the master of the house asks
you to move to a lesser place. That the person who says, "be merciful
unto me, a sinner" is greater than the one who goes, "Thank you, Lord,
for not making me as other men." Yet there are many preachers who write
self-help books and make the circuit, selling a positive self-image as
something commanded by the Bible.
They are reading a different Bible than mine.
And I suspect the secular self-image seminars are riding for a similar
fall. It's masturbatory, feeding on YOUR self image, YOUR goals. It's me,
me, me...it's not as bad as it was in the eighties, but it is still
pretty bad.
Now, too much of anything can be bad. Perhaps women do need a more
positive self-image, and such would keep their mates from getting away
with beating them, as we have heard so much lately in this echo, on the
news, whatever. But I wonder if the better idea would be to scale down the
males' egoes...or rather, maybe we should be concerned about helping
others' egoes, and be less concerned about our own.
... Everyone is of some use, if only to set a bad example.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 04:09:00
EID:54f6 20862120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409A160
AS> And I am not disputing the genetic nature of the bird's
AS> altruism. Who does not reason out its actions; I am just
AS> questioning it on OUR level. Where we can reason it out and
AS> make rational decisions, not instinctive ones.
MB> You are assuming the stated reason is the reason people do
MB> altruistic things. Did it ever occur to you that those who
MB> have a genuine altruistic urge are merely rationalizing that
MB> urge after the fact?
MB> Much of what we do precedes any "explanation" of the "why" of
MB> the action, and the "why" is only formulated on a conscious
MB> level long after the unconscious urge has been acted upon.
Nor am I disputing the urge for altruism. I am just saying that if it
were merely genetic, it could easily be overcome by reason, as humans can
usually act against their few instincts when the need hits. I think the
altruistic urge is both beyond what would be needed for strict genetic
and societal necessity, and reflects a bias of our Creator.
... Only the educated are free -- Epictetus
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 06 Apr 96 09:03:00
EID:3b0e 20864860
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409A57A
MB> And it didn't teach that turning one's back on God was the worst
MB> thing in the world one could do?
AS> ???? Let's see now, I belong to a religion where Peter, "the rock on
AS> whom I shall build my Church," in Jesus' words, denied Him three
AS> times. Where Moses, Jonah, and many another religious figure tried
to
AS> get out of the clear duty God laid on them. Where one of the more
AS> poignant and subtle sentences is, "I believe; help thou mine
AS> unbelief." Where Paul said, "What I should do, I do not, and what I
AS> should not, I do." I believe in a
AS> forgiving God, who knows that we will sometimes stumble and fall from
AS> His ideals.
MB> I rest my case.
AS> Dropped it, rather.
MB> Not quite. I am talking about renouncing one's religion permanently,
MB> as Judas did. I'm not talking about slipping and picking oneself up,
MB> or otherwise demonstrating one's humanness.
I'm not sure that Judas DID renounce his religion. Indeed, if he did
indeed kill himself afterwards, as one account says, then it would seem
any leaving he did was temporary. He may have "betrayed" Jesus to force
Him into Messianic action, and was hoping Jesus would do something to
free Palestine, for instance, or that Jesus would become a rallying point
of zealot forces.
But no, I agree one is warned against renouncing one's religion
permanently. But I'm not sure it would fill my mind with guilt every
waking hour if I did, as you implied three or four posts back. I know
quite a few ex-Episcopalians who function quite well, thank you, and seem
not filled with guilt, and many of the participants here feel the same
way, even though they were raised in a religious household.
... For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 05:07:00
EID:2963 208628e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409A886
AS> Ouch! Nice right hook. Well, yes, I goofed. I meant to write
AS> Aragorn/Strider. But you goofed too. Earendil, a man, was Elrond's
AS> father, as I remember. Elrond and his brother were given their
AS> choice of which of the Kindreds to be. Elrod chose to be Elf, and his
AS> brother chose to be a man, and was I believe Aragorn's remote
AS> ancestor. (My LANGUAGES OF MIDDLE EARTH, which had the family trees
AS> done so nicely, is now so much kindling, and I feel lazy enough not
AS> to look it up in LOTR).
SA> Doh. That's what I get for just going on the one book. :)
SA> Someone suggested that more info is available in the Silmarillion,
SA> but I don't have a copy of it yet.
And the Appendixes in the end of the Return of the King also imply that,
I believe...
SA> I did, however, get the faint impression that Aragorn himself
SA> might have had some Elf ancestry ...
Beren and Luthien, among others. Get THE LAYS OF BELERIAND to see a long
verse epic where Beren (a man) and Luthien (the fairest elf-maid ever
borne) fall in love, and challenge Sauron's MASTER. Unfortunately
unfinished, but the SIMILARILLION tells the rest of the story...
AS> I notice in that list of D&D stuff you sent George Mooth you
AS> included Larry Niven's Sunflower plants, as well.
SA> Wasn't my textfile; it was just a sourcefile I picked up from a
SA> local RPG source material oriented BBS. I've got a nice speech by
SA> Steve Jackson on game design, as well. I've been downloading
SA> a lot of textfiles from there lately - good thing I've got no
SA> ratio. :)
Does that make you a Dungeon Mistress? (Which conjures up quite a
different image from Dungeon Master...)
AS> Then forget what I said about Elrond being half-Man. That is a minor
AS> detail that you probably wouldn't remember.
SA> Hm. I'm still unsure; I thought the Elves of Rivendell were all
SA> High Elves.
They are; one doesn't preclude the others. Only Elrond is half-Elven.
Someone else sent you a more detailed explanation, and that was the
straight goods.
AS> Read "Three Hearts and Three Lions" by Poul Anderson.
SA> Hm. OK; Anderson's stuff is fairly easy to find. However, I won't
SA> be running xD&D - I find it too .. limited for my tastes. I don't
SA> mind playing it, but I feel much too restricted, character-wise,
SA> by its limited selection of races and handful of classes. Also,
SA> it lends itself too much to the urge to run a hack&slash game, of
SA> which I've grown quite tired. The fellow who's running the
SA> present game has been good at avoiding that pitfall so far, but at
SA> essence it is (especially 2nd edition AD&D) a power-gamer's game.
SA> I'll likely run the one that I'm in the process of designing, or
SA> White Wolf's "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" once I get the book. I've
SA> played - briefly - WW's "Vampire: The Masquerade" and, though I
SA> strongly dislike the vampire concept, I did like its more earthly and
SA> closer-to-real world-setting. (For anyone who might have
SA> wondered, that new series "Kindred: The Embraced" is a DIRECT
SA> take-off of V:tM. The first tip-off was the title; it uses
SA> terminology taken directly from the game. I watched the premiere
SA> last night, and sure enough - I was able to tag each vampire with
SA> the correct clan before it was mentioned. Though they are missing
SA> two - Malkavians and the Tremere. Malkavians are generally all
SA> insane, and the Tremere are occultists, which probably explains
SA> their absence from television. My main interest lies in whether
SA> or not they'll cross-fertilise from W:tA - all of WW's games are
SA> interconnected, and werewolves are the sworn enemy of vampires, and
SA> indeed of anything "of the Wyrm", an evil force that mocks, destroys,
SA> and pollutes nature with its action and presence. Except for the
SA> Black Spiral Dancers, a clan of werewolves that are akin to an
SA> anti-paladin. They don't like anybody very much, and are considered
SA> "evil" werewolves. They're QUITE nasty.)
Oh-kay.
SA> One thing about gaming though - you do get to learn about
SA> interesting obscure weaponry. One of the weapons I could have had
SA> for my cleric character was a mace with holy water in it - you
SA> bash someone across the head and sprinkle them with the stuff
SA> through holes at the same time. Turns out this was a REAL weapon,
SA> invented by some monk or another during the Crusades. It was
SA> tempting, but I went with a magical +3 staff/flail instead. :)
AS> You'll be sorry, when you encounter a vampire...
SA> Why? I'm a 9th level cleric with Turn Undead ability and up to
SA> one 5th level spell. :) Vampires? Pshaw.
Wait until you meet the 10th level cleric who is also a vampire. (Why
not? If it was an evil god he was serving to begin with...?)
AS> The only problem is, we're playing in Waterdeep - 2 weeks before
AS> all the gods are scheduled to fall to earth, thereby screwing all
AS> the clerics over for any spells higher than 3rd level (unless the
AS> god worshipped happens to be within a certain radius of the
AS> cleric.) Worse, we're playing 1st edition rules, and the
AS> Undermountain module is sort of a transition between 1st and 2nd
AS> edition rules (hence the gods falling bit) - and the god my cleric
AS> serves (Ilmater, protector of the tortured and suffering) isn't
AS> included in the 2nd edition pantheon, indicating he was killed
AS> in the interim. :P
Well, Nietsche said God is dead. Maybe now you know how a lot of clerics
reacted to that...
... My kids were sent from heaven. They like peace and quiet up there.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 05:01:00
EID:54f6 20862820
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409AEC6
MB> I really don't grep your analogy, unless you are saying that
MB> those animals that I love unconditionally I will also condemn
MB> to eternal torment if they cross me.
AS> You do not seperate dogs who are rabid from those who are
AS> well? You don't seperate say, a pit bull who has been known
AS> to attack animals from those who are good-natured? And if you
AS> seperate such animals to their own place, the pit bulls and
AS> those who are bad-temepered will naturally end up...by their
AS> very nature...as more torn up, more hurting, than those who
AS> are in the other pen.
MB> ETERNAL. Remember that word: ETERNAL. Protecting oneself and
MB> others from harm at the expense of a rabid dog can hardly be
MB> compared to ETERNAL TORMENT, now, can it?
It depends on who's doing the tormenting, doesn't it? In the example
above, the ill-tempered dogs do it to themselves. Oftentimes when one is
sent to prison one can be raped, stabbed, even tortured. Not usually by
the guards (although human nature being what it is, that has and will
happen) but by the other inmates. But that's not really a good analogy.
I
wish I still had the Heinlein story, but I think it's called
"Coventry"...where offenders are sent to a land, without any the
anemities of civlization, and criminals are free to erect their own
society, as long as they do not enter ours. There are only guards to keep
people from escaping Coventry. Inside, ANYTHING can happen...and does.
With impunity.
So might Hell be; it may be a spirtual plane where those who reject God
are left without any interference or code of conduct from God; where
Torquemada and Caligula, where Vlad Tepes and Nero, can all vie for their
own bits of turf. And of course, part of that belief is that it also
includes strictly spiritual beings...fallen angels...mightier than
ourselves.
It should not be surprising that an eternal God regards our decisions,
once we step outside of Time (i.e., die) AS eternal. Though it will
sadden Him, He will abide by our decision...even if it ends up hurting us
more.
AS> So, of all those references to hell, only one refers
AS> specifically to a place of torment, Gehenna is used as a
AS> place of destruction, and the majority refer just to the
AS> abode of the dead.
AS> of Hell.
MB> I posted something similar, and you passed it off as not mollifying
MB> your agony of hell's obvious existence. It really DOES make a
MB> difference who the messenger is (and their own personal outlook),
MB> doesn't it. So much for "truth is truth, regardless of its source."
(A) In all honesty, I don't remember such a post, where you stated there
were much fewer mntions of Hell than Heaven, but I'm not doubting you.
(B) I like the emphasis on Heaven over Hell, but by the same token, it
does NOT mollify me as to Hell's existence, according to the Scriptures,
and still remains a troubling thing. Stop trying to look for hypocrisy
where none is intended.
... Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 05:00:00
EID:54f6 20862800
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409B376
MB> I never said he was unfair; I said he was an asshole and an
MB> hypocrite. I'll stand by those words.
AS> Hmmm. He's a FAIR hypocrite? To me the essence of hypocrisy
AS> is double standardness (which I believe you have accused Him
AS> of before) or duplicity, of saying one thing and meaning
AS> another, which strikes me as unfair. Oh, well, maybe I should
AS> quit while I'm ahead. You think he's fair, so I'll leave it
AS> at that.
MB> According to YOUR defintion, he IS unfair. In fact, he is the
MB> prototype.
No, I said you accused Him of that. I did not say I agreed.
... Ignorance is slavery. Knowledge is freedom.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 09:05:00
EID:2963 208648a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409B696
AS> They did it anyway. As the resultant world is made, death is a
AS> necessity. And another world is promised to come, eventually; it seems
AS> to have been both like and unlike the original world. Adam and Eve
AS> were encouraged to "be fruitful and multiply" before the Fall." Yet
AS> Jesus explicitedly says there will be no marriage in Heaven, and, one
AS> assumes, no procreation. That doesn't mean we will necessarily be
AS> sexless...just that the ecstacy of more direct contact with God will
AS> make sex pale in comparison. Maybe God is forestalling any sort of
AS> "end of the world" scenario to allow the maximum number to be saved
AS> who are going to be. I have certainly argued within the parameters
AS> we have now, that death is necessary. The only way I think it could
be
AS> avoided is if He personally took charge of most natural
AS> actions...which I think would result in a tyranny absolute, especially
AS> in growing minds. But if one has experienced it and chosen the good
of
AS> its own accord, the lesson is learned and not needed to be repeated.
SA> Of course, you realise the problem with this argument - any world
SA> that enables creatures to "fruitfully multiply" does require
SA> death, even if they don't eat - the world would simply eventually
SA> get much too crowded for anyone to even stand. At the other side
SA> of the coin, death necessitates reproduction - for if mortal
SA> creatures do not reproduce, they will go extinct within one
SA> generation. Reproduction and death are therefore intertwined and
SA> inseperable; the story of Genesis, which allows reproduction but
SA> not death, is untenable on that foundation alone.
Unless there was some point later in time where God would say, "Okay,
you've been fruitful and multiplied ENOUGH. Let me put the males to
sleep, and they'll wake up with a vascectomy..." But (Just granting the
Genesis frame and not arguing for its actuality) in the early world,
there would have been planty of room to "be fruitful and multiply" for
centuries.
SA> Of course, a real fundy could just say that the "excess
SA> population" (whatever that is) would just be "removed" by YHWH to
SA> somewhere else. But given the entire theology of Christianity,
SA> this is what death is supposed to be like, anyway - at the very
SA> least, the result is the same (those left behind are bereft at the
SA> loss of their friends and family and console themselves by saying
SA> "Well, they're in a better place now.")
In fact, such would exactly explain why there is no "giving or taking of
marriage in Heaven" in Jesus' own words.
SA> Quite simply, in a world in which Genesis is correct and the
SA> mythical Fall never happened, a point of stasis would have to be
SA> reached eventually, because the inhabitants of that world would
SA> have reproduced like mad, with no one dying (or being removed) to
SA> make room for newcomers. Whatever point that might have been
SA> doesn't matter, but for all time thereafter, there would be --
SA> could be -- no change. Reproduction must stop, since there is no
SA> death.
Yes, I agree.
SA> Of course, this leaves open the question as to how these creatures
SA> would derive energy, since plants ARE alive, contrary to the
SA> beliefs of ancient Hebrews, but I suppose one can assume for the
SA> moment that all these creatures were autotrophic.
No, wouldn't work. Autrophobic animals wouldn't be able to move fast.
Unless the sunlight was much fiercer. Not enough energy per square foot
of sunlight. Besides, Adam and Eve were told they could eat of "every
fruit of the garden", and fruit ARE made to drop off, so that seeds can
be spread. That's not hurting the tree anymore than ingesting sperm
hurts the male. And the seeds, either spit out or later excreted, are
spread further by a rapidly moving animal.
... Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE FLOOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 05:06:00
EID:9563 208628c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409BAF6
AS> Except finitude. He knows intellectually, of course. He "experiences"
AS> it. But I can watch a movie about sailing. It is another thing
DC> He doesn't need to live it, Al. He "created it". He had to
DC> either know what he was doing or he didn't. On the former,
DC> there is no need. On the later, he isn't omniscient.
To experience as one of many is not the same when your whole existence is
centered on it. God, presumably, feels the thoughts and feelings, the
pains and joys of all people at once. Even if some are in agony, there
are others here who are on their honeymoon night and are in ecstacy.
That's quite a different existence then being in one body, and no
more...and knowing there is no escape from pain.
AS> He can divert His attention to someone else if He wants, contemplate
a
DC> Not if he's omniscient....
I can divert attention from a sore shoulder by concentrating on how good
a
Jacuzzi feels on the rest of my body. I am aware of both. But I can divert
my attention more to one of the experiences.
AS> Just like Washington never cut down the cherry tree.
DC> But, the "story" makes a better story....
Of course. Truth is often embellished for storytelling purposes.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORMS
|Date: 06 Apr 96 06:03:00
EID:b481 20863060
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409C442
AS> reserve it for those who REALLY deserves it. Like Grigor-Scott.
AS> Judging from the last post I saw from him, where he called Marty
AS> Goldberg, of all people, anti-Semitic, I think you're right. He's
AS> full of it.
DC> Makes him one of the very largest targets of opportunity out there.
DC> t's not often that a target not only stands still but moves
DC> purposely into the line of fire... Sure has cut down on my
DC> need to re-arm!
I found this Brother Branham web page, who is Grigor-Scott's personal
"prophet". There are obviously faked pictures (for all that they say they
were authenticated by a photography lab as not being doctored) of a sheet
of fire being above his head, or a bombburst outside of a window, which
he also claimed to be a sheet of fire. There were talks of a boy being
resurrected in Finland or a baby in Mexico, but neither child is named to
verify it, at least in the account I read. There was some funny
stuff...the guy's a Kentucky preacher and there was something there about
how God created squirrels for him to shoot when he was out squirrel
hunting and couldn't find any...
... Do not disturb. Already disturbed.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 06 Apr 96 06:00:00
EID:5f35 20863000
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409C8A2
No, it shows the dry Egyptian climate is very well-suited to preserving
AS> ancient manuscripts. Dan, we don't have (by a LARGE margin) the
DC> So was the area in and around Palestine. Hence, the DSS.
Stored in a cave. Most documents did not survive as well. The Egyptian
cliimate seemed even more conducive to same.
DC> What about the disciples Ralph and Norton? They weren't mentioned
DC> in any of the gospels... ;)
AS> One of these days, Dan, one of these DAYS...POW! ZOOM! To the
AS> MOON! What did Norton do, dig the latrines for the apostles as
AS> they were travelling?
DC> Pehaps. After all, they were under Judaic law. Ralph was
DC> probably the wagon master that moved them around.
It was watching Ralph and his wife bicker that Paul developed the idea
it is better "not to marry". Given what they did, who can blame them?
DC> that "beloved disciple" was none other than Judas.
AS> WHAT??? And JUDAS dogged Peter's steps, even outrunning Peter to the
AS> tomb? And Judas sometimes called himself the "beloved disciples" and
AS> sometimes "Judas". Judas described his own death? I see that Lazarus
AS> and JEsus weren't the ONLY ones to pull off a Resurrection around
AS> here...
DC> You may be right. If you look into the backgrounds of the disciples,
DC> you will perhaps notice one person in the group that stands out
DC> from all the others in the following.
Sure. Judas wasn't a Galilean. OTOH, he was trusted enough to be the
group's treasurer.
AS> that he didn't name them...either out of modesty, out of vanity ("the
DC> So, you are saying that the word of god was modified out of human
DC> emotion and doesn't depict the true word of god.
AS> ???? Certainly it reflects the emotions and bias of the human
AS> author. I don't think the Scriptures are literally God dictating word
DC> That's a start. Only when you realize that the books where
DC> written with a current agenda can you really see why they were
DC> written in the first place.
??? Never denied it. In fact, many of the differences in the Gospels are
accounted for by the intended audience...the Greek trying to understand
Christianity and the Judaism from which it sprang, or the Christian who
used to be a Jew, or whomever.
AS> for word and that Matthew, Mark, John,et al were taking down
AS> dictation. I think, basically, that what we see as the Scriptures are
DC> No, they are said to be. Other than the fact that the books
DC> protray themselves to be just that, there is no independent
DC> evidence to support that.
They are said to be "inspired of God". That doesn't mean we can't take
into account the POV of the original authors. Certainly my preacher and
my church doesn't presume to say so. If God is lending some inspiration,
it is still a human being who is writing.
AS> others quite clearly. They were not "possessed". And yes, one must
AS> take into account the personality and the bias of the writer.
AS> That's a major key to the NT, as well as the OT.
Of course, and any half-competent Biblical scholar knows it.
AS> and Hume's essays to re-read and a book by Bishop Spong. The Paul
AS> book ought to be interesting in view of your belief that the church
AS> that we have is very different from the original Jerusalem Church.
DC> Is that the Macabee book? If so, you will find it very interesting!
No, Grant. And it WAS very interesting. By a renowned historian who has
written many books on the Roman Empire, the Caesars, Mediterranean
history. He didn't mention any influence of Mithra, but he did mention
that he didn't believe Paul was taught by Gamaliel, because he had never
laid eyes on those in the Christian Church before, but that presumes that
Paul would have been taught after the Christian church was made famous,
not before. He also dilineates the differences between Paul's feelings
about Christianity and James' and the Jerusalem Church's, but he does NOT
feel that Paul totally made up the thing about the Resurrection.
Which brings up a question, Dan. If you feel the present-day Gospels
and Church are almost purely an invention of Paul and his followers, why
are there not more mentions of many of the Gospel stories? Although Paul
DOES verify the Gospel stories to the extent that Jesus was born of a
woman, of David's stock, bore the likeness of a human being, ate the Last
Supper, was betrayed, and suffered Crucifixion and rose again. But that's
it.
A lot of people have made a big deal of that Paul did not know more.
Actually, for a travelling missionary, who never claimed to have
personally met Jesus save in a vision, that makes a lot of sense to me,
and further, he did not need to stress that which his audiences already
knew. But the points in agreement within the Synoptic Gospels, and even
John and the other Gospels, are MUCH more in agreement than Paul and the
Gospels. If the NT is a rewriting by Paul and Paul's successors, why
weren't Paul's letters or the Gospels rewritten to match more fittingly?
The only reference Paul makes to one of Jesus' statements while alive
concerns the relatively minor doctrine of divorce. If the Gospels were
rewritten to portray Paul's views, why is there so little of the Gospels
in Paul, and so little of Paul in the Gospels?
... Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 06 Apr 96 09:00:00
EID:a238 20864800
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409CEA6
AS> were no unicorns? I forget her name, but she said, "But...but...there
AS> ARE zebras, and zebras have stripes, which are just plain silly!" I
DC> If you run across the reference, please let me know!
I know it was in LEAVE YOUR MIND ALONE! by James Thurber in one of the
later essays. Unfortunately, my copy is lost...
AS> Still, I don't call it a fact, I just say there are no evidence for
AS> unicorns, the way they are normally depicted. Although they were
AS> probably inspired by distorted tales of real animals like rhinoceros.
DC> That, though, is far different. You have a creature(s) that can
DC> be found and studied. It's only the second or third hand
DC> interpretation of the data, collected by possibly an amazed
DC> individual that gets skewed in the process.
Funny. That's sort of how I interpret other peoples' myths...
AS> Well...a significant minority of the human race have had religious
AS> experiences. (Interestingly, I was reading last night that Aldouis
DC> There are also a lot of people that claim that UFO's exist and
DC> many have said they have had a Close Encounter of the Third Kind.
And as a response to that, Operation Blue Book investigated and found
that there really was nothing to the vast majority of the cases. I'm
not so sure the other claim has been investigated even THAT well.
AS> I suspect we are arguing over semantics. What I would call "an
DC> That seems to be so...
Yep.
AS> unproven assumption" he calls the negative a "fact". I generally
AS> reserve that for something that I have evidence FOR.
DC> You almost got it there... Problem is, if something does not
DC> exist, what sort of evidence would you like me to provide that
DC> it doesn't?
It's not up to you to prove it, which I freely concede. I have tried to
make both a logical and cite some interesting facets of the universe
which I feel point to a theistic conclusion (the anthropic coincidences)
but I don't pretend they are the conclusive proof I would like. It
remains, at best, a hypothesis, and one unproven as yet.
OTOH, there are some negatives that I DO regard as fact. For instance,
the no faster-than-light thing has been shown to be a fact, not by
trying to make something go faster than light and failing, but by
instead observing the mass increase of subatomic particles as they
approach light speed, verifying Einstein's predictions.
DC> As you note above, a lack of evidence doesn't mean it isn't so.
DC> However, the lack of evidence tends to point to the fact that
DC> what is surmised isn't there. In the case of unicorns, the
DC> facts that arose upon investigation pointed to animal(s) far
DC> different from the myths propogated around them. The "unicorns"
DC> existed, but in a far more ordinary fashion than the way they
DC> were dipicted in the myths.
Which might explain the pluralities of gods in history...rumors of a
real religious experience, distorted by word of mouth and time.
... I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks left!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 06 Apr 96 06:06:00
EID:e751 208630c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409D432
AS> outside the barrier. And of all people...it was Ben Grimm, the Thing,
DC> Well, Ben always new his force!
He was a test pilot as well...a lot of early sixties heroes were. Ben
Grimm/The Thing, Hal Jordan/Green Lantern, Ace of the Challengers of the
Unknown (created by Jack Kirby), Negative Man/Larry Trainor of the Doom
Patrol...talk aboutthe "right stuff".
AS> who first suggested that. Galactus is now said to be "essential" to
AS> our reality...that if he did die, the universe would die.
DC> That kinda takes Galactus out as a general character. I'd always
DC> liked the battles between the FF as well as with the Surfer. I
DC> think the Watcher once had a run in with him, too.
Yes. There was an enjoyable issue where the Watcher was put on trial by
his other Watchers for violating his oath too many times. Leave us face
it, without the Watcher, the FF would have never even begun to fight
Galactus.
It's too bad the DC/Marvel books didn't happen earlier. I would have
enjoyed seeing the pre-Crisis, world moving Superman meet Galactus, and
having his butt kicked from here to Krypton...
... Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat....
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 06 Apr 96 06:08:00
EID:c44f 20863100
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409DC20
DC> gem you may pick up from the twitee. Got a bit of info from
DC> Prewitt, BTW.
AS> Did you check it from at least three independent sources?
DC> I only saved the stuff he said that included documentation. If
DC> necessary, I can check out his references. Most of what he
DC> sends, especially the IFO files is bullshit.
Sort of what I'm doing with Grigor-Scott's references.
1 AS> OR...maybe he's reading you ALL, and just trying to see who will
AS> rise to the bait.
AS> Why do I feel like I'm in the middle of a sitcom where two people are
DC> Maybe it's because you made comment #1 above?
Probably.
DC> Mikey fails to realize that my noise level parallels his. It's fun
DC> watching him escalate on each post. I only provide the additional
DC> fuel for him to immolate himself.
I see a lot of baiting on both sides...
DC> He's the king of of the ad hominen yet stubbornly refuses to admit it.
DC> Yet, he is the first to get bent out of shape if he thinks one has
DC> been used against him.
DC> Besides, asking for evidence is not an insult. He has yet to provide
DC> any for the way he places biblical passages into various categories
DC> other than what he thinks they should be.
Well, his twitter is untwitted. So you can ask him directly.
... Toys are made in heaven, batteries are made in hell.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 06 Apr 96 07:01:00
EID:a238 20863820
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409E422
AS> I'm not sure what kind of ailments assail you...
DC> I'm aflicted with cronic apundicitis.
AS> That's what you get for being the fastest Pun in the West.
DC> You forgot the obligatory: "mea culpable"!
What, mea worrius?--Alfredus Newmanus.
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 06 Apr 96 07:07:00
EID:2add 208638e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409EA08
MG>> Trivial. If there is a possibility, will you pay up or will
MG>> you demand to see the evidence (the note) before you do?
AS> The evidence, of course. I just do not deny the possibility.
AS> Similarly, the constants falling into the range they do are
AS> certainly evidence about how the universe is put together,
MG> Excellent. So you are saying that before you pay up, you will want
to see the
MG> note. If Sean were to claim such a thing, you might consider the possibility,
MG> but I doubt it. Very likey, you would stand up and say "BULLSHIT.
Let me see
MG> the evidence for you note."
MG> Now, does this sound vaguely familiar?
Of course, Marty. That's why I have stressed the anthropic coincidences
and what we can glean of the history of the disciples of Jesus, both of
which are evidence.
... And God said, "E = «mvý - Zeý ö r," and there was light.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marty Goldberg
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 06 Apr 96 07:02:00
EID:d8bf 20863840
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409ED6E
AG>> I would rather suspect it is you who is both bigoted, and
AG>> with a name like `Goldberg' almost certainly anti-Semitic.
AG>> It is the self-styled Ashkenazim who are the anti-Semites
AG>> and almost nobody else.
AS> accused of being Antisemitic. And _I_ must be antiChristian
AS> in Grigor-Scott's eyes, and antiWASP, and whatever. What
AS> Orwellian doublethink. Oh well, what can we expect from an
AS> antiintellectual?
MG> This is the kinda guy that likes to play soldier. He needs badly to
get
MG> a life and a few other things.
No argument there. But he's more my mess than yours, since he thinks
himself a Man of God.
... I am, therefore I think, I think...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 07:05:00
EID:42e5 208638a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409F1D8
MG>> need to test as he knows the answers. Why can't we hve free
MG>> will and at the same time have a perfect universe? surely
MG>> the all powerful god could do this for us.
AS> Try it. Just hypothetically. See if you like the universe you
AS> end up with.
MG> I need not try it. I do not have this power. An all powerful, perfect
deity
MG> does. It's up to him, not me to make this a perfect universe. Were
he able to
MG> do it, that is.
Anything but the logically inconsistent. Which is not a reflection on God's
power, but on Man's semantics. God is not any less powerful because Man
is able to utter nonsense.
... I've had a difficult past few lives. -The Doctor
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 07:09:00
EID:42e5 20863920
MSGID: 1:116/19 0409FFAC
AS> also evidence. Whether it is evidence of intelligent design,
AS> or multiple existences, or only one set of self-consistent
AS> laws, is debatable. But it is evidence for each of those
AS> hypothesis.
MG> This is where you are wrong. It is not evidence. It is STILL a wild
assed
MG> guess because you wnat it to be that way. In no way has any of this
ever been
MG> evidenced to show intelligent design. The universe formed and remains
a the
MG> mercy of natural laws. Do you believe a deity created these laws to
give the
MG> universe it's ability to support life, no matter how much of it there
is? Give
MG> the evidence of a deity. Let me assure you, that were you to write
this up and
MG> send it into some technical, peer reviewed journal, it wouldn't get
past the
MG> editor's desk.
No doubt of that. Since technical peer reviewed journals depend on
repeatable experiments or observations. The anthropic coincidences can be
tested for, and have been, again and again. Articles in NATURE and
SCIENCE and NATURAL REVIEW have appeared about it (I gave you a few
references six months or so ago). But where such evidence leads depends
on how many options you allow in your worldview. Many use it as evidence
for a many-worlds hypothesis, because they feel disinclined to allow
intelligent design into their worldview. I think, personally, that is a
a
priori basis that leaves us with explanations that are much more
unworkable under basic logical tools like Ockham's razor. (i.e., a few
billion hypothetical existences to explain the one we observe).
Suppose for an instance we take that as a possibility, as yet unproven.
Is there a way to test for it? That is, is there any way for science to
test between a universe that is Intelligently designed, one of ten
billion hypothetical universes, a universe that MUST be made this
way...these are the only self-consistent laws...a universe that would
PROBABLY be this way...that the chances favor the laws falling in this
way...and sheer chance resulting in the laws we observe? George Ellis
tackles each in turn, but along more logical lines...he didn't see a way
to test for it. Do you, perhaps?
AS> I don't claim it to be the definitive evidence for God. But it
AS> certainly is a step in the right direction. If God is, by
AS> definition, beyond our reality, than the only chance of
AS> "observing" Him is by the effect He has on our reality. The
AS> constants are given...axioms, if you will. They seem "built
AS> in" to the universe. If we were looking for an interface
AS> between nature and something beyond, we could not look for
AS> better.
MG> It is not definitive. Were it to be analogized to our lab, we might
look at it
MG> and say "Well, here is something. Then we perform the experiments.
Then we
MG> draw our conclusions. Up to that point, I would have to be very skeptical
of
MG> any god existing.
Understandable. Scientific scepticism is needed as a starting point to
any one truth being real without evidence...but at the same time,
scientific broad-mindedness is needed not to eliminate any explanation
from even being considered, without reason to do so.
... No Child Is Born A Racist.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 06 Apr 96 07:00:00
EID:dcad 20863800
MSGID: 1:116/19 040A07FE
AS> Well, I'm making allowances since I don't even remember being SPANKED
AS> as a kid, being a Dr. Spock-reared kid.
PS> I was--often with nasty bruises as reminders. But whenever I hear people
PS> say that spanking children damages them irreparably for life, I can't
help
PS> but look askance at them and say, "Um, not in every case."
Yeah, Barb was spanked, but by her mother. Her father never laid a hand
on
her.
AS> I remember having to watch at the pool while a bully picked on Brian,
AS> because I knew if I interfered,it would be worse. Luckily Brian's
PS> Yeah. It's a tough situation to be in.
Well, you can't live their lives for them.
AS> Sort of like Wolverine in the X-Men, short and wild.
PS> 'Cept that Wolverine would have turned and fled from my father. Dad
was kind
PS> of nuts, but he seems to have mellowed out since he became a parent.
Thank goodness.
AS> Even for the context of the age, it was a little over the top, so
AS> unless Moses was a total maniac, I DEDUCE, although cannot prove, that
AS> the Baal type rituals must have been something pretty bad. And since
PS> Archaeological evidence suggests that child sacrifice was not unknown
in
PS> the area at that time--but still, punishing people who sacrifice children
PS> by killing many of their children seems to be a bit, oh, STUPID.
I guess we don't have enough info to go on to really know. After all, I
know a civilized group of nations that destroyed armies which included
14-year-old boys and destroyed three whole cities, men, women, children,
oldsters. Monsters, right? But I'm talking about the allies...who often
had to fight members of the Hitler Youth pressed into service when they
were approaching Berlin, and who firebombed Dresden and atombombed
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
AS> we know about the Molech thing associated with many places of worship
AS> of Baal, it makes sense...
PS> True. I may have to dig up some of my archaeological resources on this
one
PS> to be sure.
Feel free. CARTHAGE by Soren has a whole chapter devoted to the
practice.
AS> You'd rather he be the patient rather than the doctor, then?
PS> Or better, just confined to the institution. I've been in one before.
NOT
PS> a fun place.
You and James Taylor.
AS> Although there it can bring your expectations up TOO much. What flesh
PS> True--but most of the women I know (and associate with regularly) have
that
PS> steel spine about them, even if they may not be able to back it up
PS> physically.
One needs to speak with a person, not an echo. Strong-willed women
attract me, also.
AS> and blood female can match the heroine in GLORY ROAD? I always
AS> liked the way he met her, though...
PS> It was a neat story. He said he wrote it in something like 23 days and
PS> enjoyed every minute.
I especially liked the duel with Cyrano de Bergerac...
AS> Extremism is GOOD for you....
PS> But I am, I am! But I'm extreme about so *many* things....
You're extremely extreme?
... Witches and Pagans and Druids... OH MY!!!!!!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fred Rice
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 06 Apr 96 07:03:00
EID:a6d5 20863860
MSGID: 1:116/19 040A0C9A
as> Uh oh. Anthony and Mark Craig are now getting together.
as> Witness the birth of the new Nazi party.
FR> We already have. It's called "The Religious Reich."
If you would read more of the posts, you would find my opinion of Reed
and his group is not substantially higher than yours.
... Some folks look for answers...others look for fights...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fred Rice
|Sub: CHRISTANIC BLOW JOBS
|Date: 06 Apr 96 07:05:00
EID:0a75 208638a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 040A1302
FR> Actually I, like 79% of the populace here, have given up the process
FR> and am letting the Christians have free run as they beshit and befoul
FR> the country in an effort to instigate Nazi Germany all over again.
as> Um. Am I understanding, Fred, that you do not vote? Is that
as> what you call "giving up on the process"?
FR> In actual fact the only elections which really matter are the local
ones:
FR> school board, city boards, and perhaps the mayor. (Pretending to actually
vote
FR> for a president is pretty silly, don't you think?)
Not at all. Yes, it is usually choosing the lesser of two evils. But at
least it is some imput. If you and the 79% would get off your duffs and
do something, you would stop a minority from making your decisions FOR
you. And bitching about it afterwards.
FR> You can bet real money that when death cultists run for office, I vote
against
FR> them and when death cultists are in office, I vote them out.
Good, good. But that means...ah, let's wait and see how you contradict
yourself later.
FR> Why do you ask? Is your reading comprehension so bad that you failed
to
FR> understand what I wrote?
Just making sure, Fred. Just using commendable caution before making an
accusation.
as> Odd. I wouldn't have thought you the type to give aid and
as> comfort to the Religious Reich. Ah, well...sometimes refusing
as> to participate is a decision, too. I hope it's not one you'll
as> regret.
FR> That's quite okay, Al. By forcing Christanics such as yourself to open
their
FR> yaps in public I do a great deal more for the country then I could ever
do by
FR> voting death cultists out of office. The last Christanic death cultist
I
LOL!!! Do you imagine your diatribes matter much to the rest of the
country? But your vote does. That is why candidates spend millions to get
it.
TOO funny, Fred. Do you see yourself as evangelizing for atheism? Do
you have a "holy mission" to expose "death cultism"? I'm having fun, but
I'm not foolish enough to think I can convert anybody by modem.
FR> helped get out of office was George Bush.
Excellent! Then you DID vote in the last presidential
election....despite your statement...
FR> school board, city boards, and perhaps the mayor. (Pretending to actually
vote
FR> for a president is pretty silly, don't you think?)
...you actually DID vote in the last presidential election, silly or not.
And did you vote for the death cultist Clinton (who prayed with his
daughter every night and is a staunch Southern Baptist) or the paranoid
Perot? (I think Perot is a "death cultist", in your terms, also, but I am
sufficiently disinterested in him not to know for sure.)
... People who constantly blow a fuse are usually in the dark.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 08:00:00
EID:0cc6 20864000
MSGID: 1:116/19 040A17E4
AS> Could be. But was the West, now thoroughly glamorized, where every
AS> man could wear a pistol, so excessively polite?
LB> :) In many ways, it still is. I moved here from Arizona -- where the
gun
LB> ownership laws are not strict, and where it is fairly simple to get
a
LB> concealed-carry permit. One thing that struck me about Phoenix -- while
it
LB> was certainly not without crime, ONE crime you rarely worried about
was
LB> mugging. Strangers didn't jump you on street corners, because there
was a
LB> good solid chance that you were armed. Invariably, when you DID hear
about
LB> a mugging, it was some fool hiding out from the police in L.A. who wasn't
LB> used the the notion that someone besides criminals might carry a weapon.
LB> I vividly recall one incident where one of those L.A. "refugees" decided
to
LB> try to snatch an elderly woman's purse, and found himself spread-eagled
on
LB> the ground with her pistol aimed at his head for some 30 odd minutes
until
LB> a passerby came past who could go phone the police. She wasn't about
to let
LB> him go, and he was relieved when they came and hauled him away, removing
him
LB> from her and her gun. Phoenix encourages the distribution of such
stories,
LB> as it is situated in an area that makes it riped for being a waystation
for
LB> all sorts of unsavory elements passing through on the way elsewhere.
Hmmm. I think that 80 year old must have moved to Nashville. She sounds
like someone I know...
LB> The possibility that every little old lady (and everyone else) that
you meet
LB> is likely to be armed and trained to use their weapon, DOES create a
climate
LB> that I find to be one of the politest I've ever known. Smart folks learn
not
LB> to sweat the small stuff -- here in MD, I am amazed at how quickly a
stranger
LB> will toss out an obscene name or gesture at the smallest provocation.
Perhaps you're right. And yet, accidental death might go up if it were a
general rule.
LB> The west does, and did, have a strong code of ethics -- but it was,
and is,
LB> one designed to weed out those too stupid to know when to keep one's
thoughts
LB> to themselves. In the past, it had to -- if you weren't of a temperament
to
LB> avoid the avoidable and deal swiftly with the unavoidable, you would
quickly
LB> become a burden on those who were managing to do so. Out here, in the
LB> so-called heart of civilization, the abundance of gross stupidity and
lack of
LB> common sense is so well-known that people in this area have a reputation
for
LB> it.
'Fess up. You LOVE where you're living now, don't you?
LB> Do I want to see Arizona-style gun laws out here? Not particularly...this
LB> area is not composed of the same sort of people who live out there.
I am
LB> not strongly activist regarding gun control, but I have observed that
when
LB> honest citizens are allowed to carry weapons without becoming criminalized
LB> for doing so, the criminals take notice.
And some take advantage. Just ask John Wesley Hardin, the REAL fastest gun
in the west.
AS> more regulated. About six months ago, a kid took a gun to school, the
AS> type that was easily concealable. He was crippled, and hid it in his
AS> wheelchair, as a "dare". Then another kid was handling it...and it
AS> killed a third kid, at the school. It may be a simplistic solution,
AS> but I cannot help but feel easily concealable weapons, as opposed to
AS> the Swiss machinegun that is mandatory, just make for both greater
AS> crime and greater accidental death.
LB> But surely in that school, just as in schools in Arizona, weapons are
LB> already banned. Guns are also not allowed in banks or bars, for obvious
LB> reasons. Does it seem better to train citizens to respect and use properly
LB> what is potentially dangerous than to flat out ban them? Cars are also
LB> featured in both crime and accidental death -- in far greater numbers
than
LB> guns are. And they are ALSO not appropriate for a 14 year old to use.
Should
LB> we ban them to avoid having to deal with the results of an 8th grader
taking
LB> a joyride?
The point is that easily concealable guns...and I am not arguing in
favor of banning guns altogether...are what let this crippled kid slip
it into school. If one could keep the right to bear most firearms, but
to let smaller weapons be regulated, you could fulfill both the right
of a society to overthrow a tyrant and guard yourself against such
accidents. Again, criminals who did not have easily concealable weapons
would also be at a disadvantage. (Of course, there would be a period of
overlap where crimianls would keep the outlawed guns. But soon they
would need repair and not be able to get any, in say, a decade's time.)
As another here observed, those who keep a gun in their home are forty
times more likely to suffer accidental death. One has only to compare
the deathrate from murder between England and the USA per capita to see
what an enormous difference access to such weapons give. English
criminals can presumably smuggle in handguns also. But relatively few
such cases arise, compared to the USA.
... New clinical studies show there are no answers!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 06 Apr 96 08:07:00
EID:805d 208640e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 040A1BD6
AS> I suppose you're right. But see my response to Marilyn, where a
AS> crippled kid smuggled a gun into school, another kid played with it,
a
AS> third one got killed with it. I suppose it is better than a tyranny.
PS> It's crazy. Hell, Heinlein was right. We're living in the Crazy Years.
Maybe a time-travelling Lazarus Long let a few details slip. So he got a
few details wrong, who wouldn't?
AS> But I wish there were a better way. And perhaps some restrictions, at
PS> You and me both.
Good.
AS> least on obviously concealable weapons, might be the way to go.
PS> Possibly, but bear in mind that the laws only work when they can be
PS> enforced.
It seems to work for England. But the problem would be the decade after
the change, where the law abiders had no such guns, and the criminals
hoarded them. After that, say a decade or so, the old guns would be
falling apart.
AS> Possibly, but as I said earlier in this packet, I don't relish the idea
AS> of having to lay into someone with a pike or a halberd. Call me squeamish,
AS> but if I *must* kill someone, I prefer to do it as efficiently as possible.
I dunno; I always liked fencing, although I wasn't fast enough to be
good at it. And as Dorothy L. Sayers has her hero, Lord Peter Wimsey say
about a duel, "He didn't like my choice of weapon. A bullet MIGHT hit
you, but a sword will almost always hurt you." Swords anyone?
... Aw, come on! I would NEVER go that far!!! Well, maybe...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 06 Apr 96 09:07:00
EID:e5f4 208648e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 040A1FF0
AS> Mentioning Grigor-Scott and Mark Craig in the same sentence is
AS> enough toZo^ANYBODY in a bad mood...
PS> True, true. Or make me start laughing as those two accuse each other
of
PS> being Not Real True Christians .
The funny thing is, perhaps they're BOTH right, for perhaps the first
time in their lives. I certainly think JESUS would view them so.
... Cogito ergo spud: I think therefore I yam.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: BOOK REPLACEMENTS
|Date: 06 Apr 96 08:05:00
EID:44c2 208640a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 040A2540
AS> Thanks. If they have two copies, get one for you. (I think JJ is
AS> sorely lacking in the Fu Manchu series, also.)
PS> Okay. No guarantees, but I'll do my best.
Thanks for offering.
PS> You'll do no such thing. Keep your money for when you might need it--I'm
PS> set to be heir to a well-sized nestegg anyway and can afford it.
AS> This is where I SHOULD say "I'm not a charity case," and act mad. But
PS> And I would reply, "It's my money, I'll do what I want to with
it"
PS> and act mad back.
Personally I HATE being a cliche, don't you?
AS> hey, fine by me. Accepting gifts in the spirit they're given is
AS> perhaps the best test of macho, and hey, with three kids, I certainly
AS> have to watch my money...
PS> As I said, don't worry about it.
What, me sorry? (Alfred E. Newman grin)
AS> I'll do it. Thanks, Preston.
PS> Pleasure's mine. I'd hate to see any intelligent person bereft of a
library.
Remember, my hardbacks are intact. That still gives me lots more books
than most people have...
... Everyone is entitled to my opinion.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Nick Andre
|Sub: LIFE IN THE FAST LANE
|Date: 06 Apr 96 09:03:00
EID:d334 20864860
MSGID: 1:116/19 040A2AAE
NA> The same Jesus that condemms Jewish people?
NA> "The Jew is the child of the Devil, and he belongs to the synagogue
NA> of Satan" (jn.8:44,rv.2:9,3:9).
John 8:44, is usually rendered "You"---i.e., talking to those Jews who
were not obeying God's words."The devil is your father, and you prefer to
do what your father wants." A little later, Jesus admits the hyperbole,
by saying, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to think that he would see my
Day."(8:56) He certainly speaks admiringly of Abraham, and Abraham was the
FOUNDER of what religion, class? Correct. JUDAISM.
Revelations 2:9, Jesus speaking in a vision to John, "--and the slanderous
accusations that have been made by the people who profess to be Jews but
are really members of the synogogue of Satan"--seems to be talking about
particular Jews who are bringing up slanderous accusations. Revelations
3:9..."Now I will make the synogogue of Satan--those who profess to be
Jews, but are liars, because they are no such things--" I suppose COULD
be
read to mean all Jews, but it seems it could equally be lent an
interpretation to say that some people were calling themselves Jews but
not following God's commandments.
BTW, Nick (or are you Mark Craig?) are you not stringing together three
verses together, to emphasize an extremely doubtful point? And two out of
Revelation, which John said, "if anyone adds something to them, thenGod
will add to him every plague mentioned in this book; if anyone cuts
anything out of the prophecies in this book, God will cut off his share
of
the tree of life and of the holy city, which is described in this book."
Feeling well, Nick/Mark? I hope you will continue to feel that way, but
given the above (Rev. 22:18-19) I wouldn't bet on it.
NOW, Nicky boy, I have a challenge for you. Read John 4:22. Where Jesus
is talking to the Samaritan woman. "Ye worship ye know not what; WE know
what WE worship; for salvation is of the JEWS." Golly. Looks to me like
Jesus is including Himself when He mentions Jews. It looks like He is
saying salvation is of the Jews.
Or Paul, saying, "Is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also of the
Gentiles?" Does that not imply that God is certainly of the Jews...that
Paul is just adding the Gentiles to the mix? And of course, this was AFTER
the trial and crucifixion of Jesus.
My braindead bigot, please THINK for once in your life, and try not to
use Scripture to justify hate. If you told Jesus and Paul and Peter that
Jews are to be despised, they would regard you as a Gentile bigot, because
each of them are Jews.
And they would be right. You ARE a gentile bigot.
... Faith is no excuse for ignorance!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: THIS IS 1 VIEW
|Date: 07 Apr 96 05:06:00
EID:d507 208728c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 031BE74A
AS> It did indeed, and is saved to disc. Thanks a lot. Actually, it tied
right
AS> into some of the things I was reading concerning the historical background
AS> of JEsus and his times.
RV> No , the mail been real bad going out .What few replys i have send out
RV> just vanish , so i quit bothering ,even tossing in two cents worth.
I had that problem for about a month and a half. Then I found a BBS where
they COULD see me. The only thing is its feed is very irregular, so I
have to cut and paste my replies by pulling my mail off one, and then
pasting it onto another *Sigh*...anyone for an "alt.holy.smoke"
newsgroup?
AS> RV> of electronic mail. Other then 'Holysmoke' most conference up this
AS> RV> way usually would of kick this type of person off , for
AS> RV> questioning the belief in a God , well the Christian God anyhow.
AS> Yes, unfortunately there's a lot of that.
RV> I know , i've been booted off a few now.
Think of it as a compliment. Anyone who thinks has questioned the idea of
a God...it's just that some of us get answers, and some don't.
AS> If I don't question, than I'm saying my knowledge is complete. Far
from
AS> it.
RV> It's the ones ,with all the pat answers ,who also don't have a clue
RV> just how the so called holy bible , got to this day and age. They are
RV> the scarry ones.
But even there you can eventually show them (although it's a long, weary
process) since they DO reverence the Bible. The ones who have no holy
text or point of reference, though...they CAN be even scarier. Or their
point of reference might be a book like MEIN KAMPF.
AS> RV> I usually just sit back , and watch the Better Educated ,go at
it
AS> RV> mainly since I'm not. You and Linda ,and a few old times Yeah, but don't let that "Better Educated" thing worry you. Yeah,
this
AS> can be a pretty unforgiving enviorment. But anyone can join in.
RV> How well i know. But for me , even spending hours ,checking spelling
RV> ,etc. the notes when they get to the other end , sound like they came
RV> from a character all pissed out of shape.I see it right , even when
it's
RV> wrong.Transpose letters , or drop the endings . Not for this area
RV> you don't , else a fred will come out of the bushs and wack the hell
out
RV> of you.
Fred makes mistakes on his own. And part of his persona here is more
put-on than anything else.
AS> Uh oh. I better not tell you about the ten old ladies I mugged on the
way
RV> Sure you did. Your luck is likely like mine , the little old ladies
RV> would catch you 1'st try and beat the hell out of you.
Too true. For many of us, it is incompetency that keeps us honest, not
ethics.
AS> to work today... Well, thanks for the compliment, but trust me,
I
AS> don't do as much as I should, unfortunately. It's easy to TALK. It's
AS> harder to do.
RV> Do any of us , do all that we can . It's a safe bet ,the answer is
RV> no.For myself , those who try a bit , instead of preaching on how it
RV> should be , will get a pat on the back. Hell , i'm poor ,thats all i
can
RV> do .. .. Then too , you can only help those who will at least try
a
RV> bit also , humans aren't gods . No snap of fingers for humans.
And no snap of the fingers from God...if humans are to stay recognizably
human. Striving is a part of being human.
... Some men are alive simply because it's against the law to kill them.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 07 Apr 96 05:07:00
EID:3299 208728e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 031BEF92
AS> You know, Marty, I bet this is the first time you've ever
AS> been accused of being Antisemitic. And _I_ must be
AS> antiChristian in Grigor-Scott's eyes, and antiWASP, and
AS> whatever. What Orwellian doublethink. Oh well, what can we
AS> expect from an antiintellectual?
JH> I'm still reeling from Fred Rice's quoted article by Linda Thompson
JH> where she compares her (alleged) persecutors to the Nazis and then
JH> later on in the very same run on sentence identifies them as "the
JH> International Jews".
She and Grigor-Scott would get along...he thinks Nazism is a "Jewish
invention."
JH> I need to re-read 1984. I read it several times as a teenager. At
JH> the time I regarded it as science fiction. Now, after a couple of
JH> decades of daily observation of the body politic I suspect that
JH> "social commentary diguised as fiction" would be a better label.
Definitely. Orwell wasn't concerned with the advances the future might
bring. He was making a political dystopia.
JH> About a year ago my employer instituted a dress code. It was
JH> announced as "our new, relaxed dress code". The problem was, that
JH> prior to the announcement, we DID NOT HAVE a dress code. An almost
JH> textbook example of how to sound like you are giving people
JH> something while you actually take something from them.
That's why the "Dilbert" comic strip is so funny...it shafts that sort of
hypocrisy in the marketplace over and over. Anyone who has ever worked for
a big company knows all too well the truth of many of "Dilbert's"
objections.
... Now wait a minute... how do we know you're the REAL Angel of Death?
__
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 07 Apr 96 05:04:00
EID:4c40 20872880
MSGID: 1:116/19 031BF88E
JH> Yup... the later half of the 19th century introduced us to what
JH> is sometimes called "modernism". Geology and archeology cast a
JH> dubious light on the Genesis accounts. Psychology gave us a new
JH> perspective on the "soul", a territory that had once been the
JH> exclusive domain of the theologian. Sociology and Historical
JH> Linguistics inevitably lead to Biblical Criticism, a studied and
JH> methodical approach that the scriptures had not been exposed to
JH> before. And "worst" of all, the seat of higher learning and
JH> intellectual authority shifted from the seminary to the
JH> university.
Robber barons justified their exploiting the poor as "social
Darwinism"...
JH> But to their good credit the majority of Modernist theologians
JH> emerged from this era with the basic framework of their beliefs
JH> largely intact, even if many of the particulars had to undergo
JH> careful reevaluation.
Something they have been doing, steadily, ever since theology became a
seperate discipline...Aquinas trying to redefine Christianity in light of
the logic of Aristotle, for instance.
JH> In fact, they may have been too sucessful, because a countermovement
JH> (clearly bearing the bitterness of sore losers) quickly followed.
JH> The first two decades of this century saw the rise of the
JH> theological movement now known as Fundamentalism.
You may know more about this than I, JJ. I know the Church of Christ and
much of the Restoration movement started with Alexander Campbell, who
journeyed to America and started a movement, which, for its time, actually
showed roots from the Enlightenment in that they tried to get back to the
original first century idea of Christianity, felt that miracles were a
thing of the past, no longer applicable to the present day church, etc.
Yet it seemed to freeze there rather than keep up a tradition of thinking
things through, to a certain extent. Was this a general reactionary
movement throughout Western civilization, or was it more an American
phenomena? You don't hear as much about televangelists from England. for
instance.
... Dangerous exercise: jumping to conclusions
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 07 Apr 96 05:03:00
EID:4c40 20872860
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C0EB4
AS> about many (especially Crowley) but the Fox sisters I regard
AS> as a 19th century phenomena (in fact their hoax started the
AS> modern spiritualist movement...all because they learned the
AS> trick of snapping their fingers, not their toes...and
AS> Madame Blavantsky I must confess I regard as more nineteenth
AS> century than 20th.
JH> We were talking about the "turn of the century" (the last one, not
JH> the upcomeing one).
JH> Seems to me the end of the 19th century was one of the contributing
JH> factors that lead to the turn of the century. In fact, I'd say
JH> it's role was indispencable.
Granted. But the Fox sisters' original hoax is as far from the turn
of the century (19th to 20th) as the Kennedy assassination was from the
upcoming turn of the century (20th to 21st). I don't think I could call
Kennedy's assasination a "turn of the century" phenomena, could I? But
that's of course a minor, minor point, and what they started was
certainly a movement that went past the turn of the century
(Spiritualism).
... "Thence we came forth to see the stars again." -- Dante
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: DON'T READ THE BIBLE!
|Date: 07 Apr 96 05:07:00
EID:04e4 208728e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C269C
gf> That's an oxymoron isn't it, _learned religious_ ?
FR> Hell, there's a great deal of truth in the statement that anyone who
reads the
FR> classical Christanic mythologies once can't remain a believer. Anyone
who
FR> learns scientific method and critical thinking and _employ_ both can't
be a
FR> believer in the mythologies.
I can keep this up as long as you can, Fred. Roger Bacon, who first
formulated the idea of observation and experimentation against theory,
i.e., the scientific theory in its essence, was a Christian monk. Gregor
Mendel, who discovered much of the laws of genetics, was a Christian
monk. Nicholas Copernicus was a canon of the Church, and rediscovered and
verified the heliocentric theory. Isaac Newton, famous for both his laws
of gravity and mechanics, wrote quite a few books defending Christian
beliefs showing his wide Biblical knowledge. Lemaitre, the person who
first broached the Big Bang theory and said Einstein was wrong in his
"cosmological constant" idea, was a Roman Catholic priest as well as a
cosmologist.
Every time you say something like the above, you will be reminded of
these and others.
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRIS
|Date: 07 Apr 96 05:08:00
EID:6e7c 20872900
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C3024
FR> Adolf Hitler was no different than the thousands of
FR> tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him
EF> True, with one exception: Hitler wasn't a Christian.
dc> Now you went and done it... Be afraid, very afraid.
dc> Clean out your HD, as you will need the storage space....
FR> He's been thinking of some other Adolf Hitler, no doubt.
Not at all, as the source Elliot quoted...AND WHICH YOU POINTEDLY
IGNORED...proves.
dc> You have done one of the 3 unpardonable offences in HS
dc> in questioning Fredric on "Hitler wasn't an xian".
FR> I actually posted some fresh debunkings of the claim.
What, quotes from Hitler?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ohhh, dear, Fred. I can produce quotes from Hitler indicating that he
was going to honor the accord he signed with Chamberlain. Or with Stalin.
The words of a habitual liar...even more so than the average
politician...are extremely suspect. Produce quotes from Hitler until your
keyboard falls in, and it will not erase the unpleasant fact evidenced by
what Elliot produced and the fact that Hitler...raised as a
Catholic...killed himself, and did not have a priest ready to try to save
his soul from that "mortal sin" under Catholic theology.
FR> I wonder whether the people who deny that Adolf Hitler was a Christian
are
FR> pretty much the same people who deny that the Jewish Holocaust took
place.
Last I heard, William Schirer was quite adamant that the Jewish
Holocaust happened. Let's look at what you...evaded? Ignored? Didn't
address? Elliot and I have had our differences, but HE doesn't IGNORE
evidence, unlike some.
BTW, this is saved to disc. Your selective memory needs nudging every
so often.
- Area: holysmoke ------------------------------------------------------------
Msg#: 563 Date: 03-30-96 14:49
From: Elliott Finesse Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Fredric Rice Mark: Save
Subj: HITLER'S RELIGION
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 03-28-96 Fredric Rice wrote to Andrew Masten:
> You're wrong again. Perhaps you should READ the mythologies once, And
> you might actually learn what it is you joined. Adolf Hitler was a st
> Christian in good standing with MOST of European Christianity.
>
Ah, no. I sent you a post on this about a month ago. Oh oh. Now that I
look at my post, it looks like I sent it to the wrong conference. Duh! Oh
well. Anyway here it is, better late than never:
Date: 02-25-96 (19:51) Number: 1250 of 1250 (Refer# NONE)
To: Fredric Rice
From: ELLIOTT FINESSE
Subj: Hitler's Religion
Read: NO Status: RECEIVER ONLY
Conf: Main Board (0) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
In a message dated 02-19-96 Fredric Rice wrote to Kenneth Mcabee:
>
> Hitler was a Christian, Ken, sanctioned by nearly _all_ of European
> Christianity. Get over it.
Hi, Fred.
I have finally concluded that this is probably not true (I'll get to that
evidence in a moment) On the other hand, Hitler was clearly a believer
in
God, and probably Jesus too, on some level. He was raised a Catholic as
was Heinrich Himmler, Julius Streicher, Rudolf Hoess, Hermann Goering and
Joseph Goebbels.
In 1933 Hitler of proclaimed the Nazi party stood for "Positive
Christianity" (3/23/33 Reichstag).
In July, 1933 the Nazi government signed a concordat with the Vatican. But
5 days later Germany promulgated a sterilization law that outraged the
Vatican. This kind of move was classic Hitler. It is still hard to imagine
the amazing treachery Hitler was capable of. Few groups were spared seeing
it first hand.
Hitler makes references to God both directly and using various euphemisms
throughout Mein Kampf. It appears that his is the conventional, Biblical
God.
Some of Hitler's "divine" references (Mein Kampf)
"We must, therefore, coolly and objectively adopt the standpoint that it
can certainly not be the intention of Heaven to give one people fifty
times as much land and soil in this world as another."
"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy
enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an
overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to
live at this time."
"I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the
top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be
allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge
and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."
"Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first
prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only
arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not
spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain."
"Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most
modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an
embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image."
"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of
our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of
our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our
people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the
creator of the universe."
----
Despite all this, his actions show pretty conclusively he was not a
Christian. Most who offer evidence or reasons why Hitler wasn't a
Christian point to his genocidal tendencies as being in conflict with
Christian doctrine.
I don't buy this since Christian anti Semitism had a long and bloody
history (i.e., his actions were not unlike those of European Christians
historically). Rather, Hitler wasn't a Christian because his behavior
really was antithetical.
The nazis planned to destroy Christianity in Germany, and started taking
over churches to that end, forming the "National Reich Church."
Some of it's 30 point program - and what made Hitler a non-Christian:
"To exterminate irrevocably .... the strange and foreign Christian faiths
imported into Germany imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800"
"The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains, or priests"
"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and
dissemination of the Bible in Germany"
"The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes,
Bibles, and pictures of saints"
"On the day of its (the National Reich Churches) foundation, the
Christian cross must be removed from all churches, cathedral, and chapels
and must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika"
Source: Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York:
Touchstone, 1959. p.240
Oh! Talking of reports of miracles. I wasn't having much
AS> success finding an unbiased report of Brother Branham, so I
AS> went to the web page about him. He was born in Kentucky
AS> around 1909, evidently heard voices from angels at a young
AS> age.
JH> Good stuff.. saved to disk.
JH> See if you can snag a bibliography.
JH> (When I go used bookshopping I generally forget authors, but always
JH> remember titles.)
I'll see what I can find. If it's any comfort, I can't find a LOT on
Branham, which argues that his followers are not flooding cyberspace with
his stuff.
... Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than are lies.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 07 Apr 96 06:08:00
EID:898d 20873100
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C41E0
Ä Area: holysmoke ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 458 Date: 04-04-96 04:07
From: Al Schroeder Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Al Schroeder Mark: Save
Subj: THE CONSTELLATION
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Again, temporary insanity. (Also, cut-and-pasting messages from one BBS
to
another. That new one, where you can finally see me, still has a pretty
irregular feed, so sometimes I pull the messages off the old one and cut
and paste them.)
AS> Did you ever see the Dr. Phibes movies with Vincent Price? I thought
AS> they were funny, in a campy and horrofic way.
DC> Absolutely! The first was was down-right hysterical! The best
DC> scene in the entire movie was just after the "Death by Beasts".
DC> I was one of the very few in the theatre that caught the very
DC> wry humorist line as they attempted to remove the body...
Hmmm. I enjoyed it, but I don't recall it word for word. The line was...?
AS> Slasher films are old hat now, but then they were pretty different.
AS> Even though it was summer and the air conditioner was out, we rode
AS> home that night with the windows rolled up SHUT...to keep things from
DC> Sounds a lot like what happened when I first saw _Jaws!_ It had
DC> rained just before we got out of the theatre. As we walked to
DC> the car, we had to cross a puddle. The girl I was with was
DC> terrified to go over it!
Terror just ain't what it used to be...
... Quantum Physics: the Dreams that stuff is made of.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 07 Apr 96 06:09:00
EID:f41a 20873120
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C5554
AS> We lay down laws for our pets. A shepherd herds the sheep where
AS>they should go, and yells at them if they try to go the other way.
KM> Yes, but we aren't able to design our pets, either.
Most dog breeds you see are not the product of blind Nature, but of
deliberate breeding. And pretty soon, genetics will enable us to REALLY
design our pets.
KM> Nor, for that matter, do we punish our pets for something they can't
be
KM> expected to be responsible for. This summer, my cat seriously scratched
KM> me; I was holding her when a vacuum cleaner came near, and she felt
the
KM> need to leave, no matter what. I still have scars, yet I didn't hunt
KM> her down and punish her for that. The second I had stopped the the
KM> bleeding as well as I could, I found her and calmed her down. If I
was
KM> following the example of the biblical god, I'd've killed her, or at
KM> least kicked her out.
A tortured voice from Golgotha crying, "Father, forgive them, they know
not what they do!" Jesus showing the wounds He had...on His hands, on His
feet, in His side...to Thomas.
Are you SURE that's the example of the Biblical God?
Now look at it the other way. Suppose you had small children under your
charge. Suppose you had a pit bull. Suppose the pit bull was a danger to
the children. The pit bull has done nothing wrong, is just keeping to the
nature we bred into it. But we would at the very least seperate it from
the children. And we might kill it.
... A life? From what board can I down load that?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: RETURN OF PROPERT
|Date: 07 Apr 96 06:08:00
EID:5274 20873100
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C5BB2
GR> -=> Quoting John Brawley to All <=-
JB> To all who write me:
JB> I must not write into this echo after today, for 90 days, so that I
JB> can have my property returned to me by the person who borrowed said
JB> property awhile back. I cannot, therefore, answer your messages.
JB> Apologies.
GR> To all:
GR> I can not return John's book to him. That was not part of the agreement.
If I
GR> returned my book to him I would be breaking my word and I can not do
that. I
GR> am a man of honor and will keep my word with John.
That's odd. How do you reconcile being a man of honor and being a thief,
a blackmailer, and finally a destroyer of other people's property? Your
actions are actionable, it seems, according to another post, and may
also be actionable against the owner of your BBS and Styx. Though I
desire very much for no harm to come to Styx, I hope Brawley sues you
and takes you to the cleaners. If he would like any affadavit to the
happenings, I have your posts here carefully saved, and would be happy
to sign any affadavits he would send me to that effect. John tried to
comply; if you are still ticked off about what Brawley did to you, that
is your affair. But you were at first trying to usurp Styx's
perrogative as moderator, to dictate who may or who may not post on this
echo, and have by your actions perhaps made STYX liable for YOUR
dishonesty, thereby putting all of Holy Smoke in danger!
Whether that is actionable or not, I hereby ask all reading this to
boycott George; to not reply to any of his posts; and maybe he will see
the uselessness of posting here and leave. Or perhaps Styx...who,
although innocent of all your chicanery, is put in a very difficult
position...will ban you from Holy Smoke rather than risk an echo that we
all love for various reasons.
I sincerely hope he does so.
THIEF.
BLACKMAILER.
VANDAL.
... Death called while you were out, so I gave him your pager number.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: All
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 07 Apr 96 03:04:00
EID:f0aa 20871880
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C6878
I want to make sure EVERYONE reads this. Including and especially Styx.
Please read all of it.
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to John Brawley <=-
-=> Quoting John Brawley to George Rudzinski <=-
JB> ... "Bother," said Pooh as he started to install Windows.
GR> Well no I won't. I find your tagline offensive to my religious
GR> beliefs. When you remove yourself from this echo voluntarily for 90
GR> days I'll send your book back. I am well aware that Styx is the
JB> (!?!) Uh... I am... rather astonished.
JB> What does any disagreement have to do with my loan to you of my book?
GR> John,
GR> What did my tagline have to do with the rules on Origins?
JB> That stuff all happened _long_ after I loaned it to you.
GR> Why question cause and effect when you do not follow the rules?
JB> What does Styx have to do with this? Or with my book?
GR> Styx has nothing to do with this. I have already made this stipulation.
What
GR> it has to do with you book is that it is gone. Up in smoke. You violated
my
GR> rules. I followed you rules and took a voluntary 90 suspension from
posting
GR> on Origins for not even breaking one of your rules. You couldn't even
extend
GR> the same courtesy to me for actually breaking one of my rules.
JB> George... Look: that book has some personal notes I made in it.
JB> Those can't be replaced by buying another copy....
GR> Well you are going to have to ask QG about them now.
JB> All right, George: I loaned you the book in good faith. I need the
JB> book. It's my book, and you have it.
GR> I had it. Possession is nine tenths of the law. And I got rid of it
per our
GR> agreement. One can not say I am not a man of my word.
JB> Okay then, if this is the only
JB> way you will return my book to me, then so be it:
JB> I will voluntarily remove myself from this echo, _Holy_Smoke_, for
JB> ninety days, starting April 2nd (today), if at the end of that time
JB> you will honor your word (above written) and send me back my book.
GR> Sorry! Not good enough. Just as in my case the ban started when I
posted it,
GR> not when you read it.
GR> You and Dave had great fun attacking me for posting after my voluntary
ban,
GR> when I did not. My messages just happened to get to you after the ban.
GR> And again I understand I'm being unreasonable and rediculous. That
is what I
GR> said.
JB> Can I trust you to do that? Will you be honest and _do_ what you
JB> above say you will?
GR> I've already done what I said I would. When will you be honest and
abide by
GR> your echo rules?
JB> If that's the only way that you will return my
JB> property to me, then I will do it your way.
GR> Sorry! Returning your property to you was not part of the agreement.
The
GR> agreement was modified. You established the terms of that modification.
JB> Please monitor the echo.
JB> You will not see me posting any original message, or responding to
JB> any, for that time, because I have to have my property back, thank
JB> you.
JB> **********
JB> READERSHIP:
JB> **********
JB> I make my apologies to anyone who may address messages to me, or to
JB> whom I owe messages, since in order to comply with George's conditions
JB> for return of my book to me, I will have to be silent here for ninety
JB> (90) days from today. I will archive, but not answer, any messages
JB> until early July, nor will I originate any.
GR> Doesn't feel very good does it? Doesn't feel very good being treated
GR> like a child by someone who is acting childish does it?
JB> George, all it feels is like someone's got my property that I loaned
JB> him in good faith and he's not returning as asked, for his own
JB> personal reasons, be they legitimate or not.
GR> Stand in line, I said the very same things about you and Dave Horn.
GR> I'm not normally into power trips but I can do it with the best of
GR> them.
JB> I guess, if you want to call this behaviour a 'power trip,' then
JB> indulge yourself. Just please return the book I loaned you, when I've
JB> complied with your conditions.
GR> You have already failed. This post is already a violation of my conditions.
GR> I didn't know it took a few days for messages to get to me either.
If you can
GR> , so can I.
GR> Talk to you in June.
JB> Late June, I guess, or early July. But it's not necessary to talk to
JB> me then, just honor your word and send me back my book then.
GR> Again! Not part of the agreement. I can't do something that I said
I wouldn't
GR> per your conditions.
GR> george
I beg your indulgence for rereading this, but I have a point to make;
George has brought the problems he had with Brawley onto Holy Smoke, and
has proved to be a thief (not returning another man's property he lent
him on request), a blackmailer (for making John quit Holy Smoke for a
time till John could get his property) and a vandal (for destroying
John's property anyway). His actions, according to another post, are
legally actionable. Not only George could be sued, but possibly the sysop
of his BBS, and possibly the moderator of this echo, Styx. George's
blatant dishonesty has put all of Holy Smoke in danger, because Styx
surely will not run it if he is held liable for George's craziness.
George, in his pettyness, has put all of Holy Smoke in danger.
I think George should be banned from the echo for this; I do not say
this lightly. If Styx does not want to do this...and I very sincerely
hope the legal opinion is wrong and Styx cannot be held
responsible...than I urge a boycott on George. That we not respond to
him in any way shape or form. I have told George what I think of him, and
intend it to be my LAST post to him. I am not twitting him. I will read
every thing he will doubtless call me. But he will receive no further
response. If everyone wants to do the same, I suggest that George will
eventually get bored and leave.
I want to extend every sympathy to John. I hope he CAN sue George, and
George alone. I hope he can take him to the cleaners. Any support he
needs that I can give, he has. Since they live in the same town, I
understand, if I were George I would be looking over my shoulder right
now, looking to see if John was coming to settle this in an EXTRA-legal
way. And I could not blame him for that, either.
I lost many of my books recently, and I feel for John's loss. And I
think George should be...at the very least...persona non grata around
here.
... Faithful to a cause only because opponents remain insipid. - Nietzsche
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Styx Allen
|Sub: RETURN OF PROPERTY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 02:09:00
EID:d530 20871120
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C7138
Styx: about this post...
-=> Chris Farley to John Brawley <=-
Ä Area: holysmoke ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 403 Date: 04-05-96 06:40
From: Chris Foster Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: John Brawley Mark: Save
Subj: RETURN OF PROPERTY
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
CF> John: From one who has watched this in a couple of echos.
JB> To all who write me:
JB> I must not write into this echo after today, for 90 days, so that I
can
JB> have my property returned to me by the person who borrowed said property
JB> awhile back. I cannot, therefore, answer your messages.
JB> Apologies.
CF> George is a pathetic little worm. But you might take heed to Staal.
When you
CF> loaned him your book way back when and he promised months ago to return
it and
CF> did not, all you had was a violation of a verbal agreement. He lied
when he
CF> said he'd return it. He lied when he said it was on its way. Unfortunately,
CF> it is not illegal to lie, though it seems to be preferred behavior among
CF> assholes like Rudzinski who meanwhile present themselves as moral paragons.
CF> But a threat to destroy property in order to cause a change in behavior
or to
CF> force your silence *could* be considered extortion, depending on how
the laws
CF> are interpreted. That's a crime. It could even be a felony since it
is
CF> occuring in this kind of medium. I think that depends on local interpretation,
CF> too. It will also depend on whether the jurisdiction from which the
threat was
CF> sent wants to take a report, or the jurisdiction in which it was received
is
CF> willing. Where I live, the jurisdiction in which a threat is received
takes
CF> the report.
CF> The system operator of the BBS from which Rudzinski sent the message
could be
CF> liable as an accessory, as could the moderator of this message echo.
That,
CF> too, would depend on how the law might be interpreted and whether or
not they
CF> allow this sort of behavior to continue. It would be hard to press
a complaint
CF> on the original message, since there is no realistic way the moderator
or sysop
CF> can be held accountable at that time. But if no action is taken beyond
that,
CF> they could be accessories after the fact.
CF> The value of the property being threatened is of no consequence. The
issue is
CF> that property is threatened in order to force the issue. For more specifics,
CF> check with your city attorney or local law enforcement agency.
Chris seems to think that both you and the sysop of the BBS George posts
from might be liable as accessories for extortion charges, which is
clearly what George is doing. This goes beyond particular rules of an echo
and is getting into a legal sphere. Perhaps Jack Butler and Jesse Jones,
both lawyers, could give us their opinion.
But there is no doubt that George, by his criminal stupidity and
vandalism, has at the very least put you in a questionable postition. I'm
requesting that you ban George from the echo. It's not theist/atheist,
it's daring to tell another poster whether he can post on this echo, and
using blackmail...putting you, and, by extension, any idea of there BEING
a Holy Smoke echo...in danger.
I at least am sending one last message to George. If you don't feel this
is an appropriate action (and I feel for you; it's a hard position to be
in), I am urging the others posters here not to post to him. Maybe he'll
get bored and leave.
Respectfully yours,
Al Schroeder
... People who constantly blow a fuse are usually in the dark.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: thirteen
|Date: 07 Apr 96 02:09:00
EID:9a64 20871120
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C7DC2
AS> Consistency is the hobgoblin of small dogmas. Well, you have to
come
AS> to God with the trusting acceptance of a lesser being for a Greater,
a
AS> trust in the beneficience yet authority of the greater being. I think
AS> that is part of the coming to Him as a little child...not trying to
be
AS> equal to God.
RB> Though I'm no student (or fan, obviously) of the bible, I always took
that to
RB> mean 'come to him as a trusting innocent'. Faith practically demands
trusting
RB> innocence.
Trusting, certainly. That's a part of faith.
AS> trained by practice to distinguish between good and bad." We are also
AS> commanded to be as "wise as serpents".
RB> Doesn't that 'wise as serpents' part go on to say 'so you can detect
false
RB> prophets'? The wisdom isn't for discerning the reality of God but for
exposing
RB> those who don't toe the party line.
To at least answer with understanding yet without wrath. We are
counselled to be "as wise as serpents yet as gentle as doves". But there
are other verses...2 Cor 8:7, "Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in
faith, and utterance, and KNOWLEDGE, and in all diligence, and in your
love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also." Eph 5:15. "See then
that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools but as WISE. Redeeming the time,
for the days of evil." But make no mistake. God's full grace and mercy is
beyond human comprehension...which it should be. An infinite mind's
purposes will not be comprehended totally by any finite mind. But it is
ABOVE our intellect...not beneath it. When it is conselled, "if any man
among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, so
that he may be wise," they are talking about how compared to God's
knowledge each of us are fools, and not to be puffed up with what we
know, but rather humble about the great amount we do NOT know. It's not
advocating abandoning intellect...just adding perspective.
... I started out with nothing. I still have most of it.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: FALSE PROPHETS
|Date: 07 Apr 96 02:06:00
EID:33dc 208710c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C8786
MC> Did you ever wonder why Hal Lindsey was called the author of the decade,
MC> by the New York Times - an Establishment newspaper? The man is a Zionist
Doubtless because he got numerous STUPID people to believe his apocalyptic
drivel, none of which has happened as he predicted since its first
publication. Why?
MC> stooge, and his job is to divide the Church (Catholics and Protestants).
Funny. Last I heard, the Catholics and Protestants ARE divided.
Now tell me, Mark. Any other bad side effects from the lobotomy?
... "Nemo exspectat Inquisitionem Hispanicam!" --Montius Pythonius
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: (1/2) LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 07 Apr 96 02:00:00
EID:9162 20871000
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C9406
lb> Now, in any other situation, there would be no difficulty -- if I
lb> dislike the majority of the group with which I am affiliated, the only
lb> honest and sensible thing to do is to leave the group.
FR> Or try to change it from within -- but that's only if there's something
worth
FR> salvaging.
RE: what we talked about privately.
How often have Fred and I agreed about ANYTHING?
I think that qualifies as a miracle. A sign. A wonder.
Maybe especially...a sign.
... Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them. - Vader
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: ARGUMENTS
|Date: 07 Apr 96 02:03:00
EID:2221 20871060
MSGID: 1:116/19 031C9C3A
AS> (As we all have faith in some
AS> things...scientists have faith that the laws of nature do not change
from
AS> place to place, for instance....i.e., you cannot prove the same laws
of
AS> physics hold in a distant galaxy as it does here, but one makes that
AS> assumption, and science is loaded with such faith. But they are called
AS> "axioms" in math and science. But they are matters of faith, nonetheless.)
RB> An axiom is a far different matter than religious faith. To assume certain
RB> conditions are consistent (until shown otherwise) is very different
than
RB> granting properties to unseen elements of the universe that are wildly
RB> inconsistent with observed reality.
Well...quite frankly, Rob...what do you consider observed reality? The
vast majority of humanity over the centuries, and even today, consider a
religious faith as part of their observed reality. A sizable minority
feel that they themselves have had contact with some sort of spiritual
beings or beings. And many have felt that a controlling intellect is
perfectly consistent with the harmony they observe in nature. Wherein
lies the inconsistency? I could see unevidenced. But inconsistent? How
so?
... You don't need to be a cannibal to be fed up with people.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 07 Apr 96 02:08:00
EID:fea1 20871100
MSGID: 1:116/19 031CA5CC
AS> Well, quite frankly, you see a lot of theists HERE that exhibit no
racism,
AS> no sexism, and little militarism. And you see nontheists that do, like
Jim
AS> Lammon used to.
RB> Lammon is neither theist or nontheist. He's a dickhead.
I suppose I cannot dispute that. Nevertheless, the way he talked about
"reborns" indicated that he was not a believer. Similarly, this Nick
Andre guy seems to be nontheist, yet is as bigoted as they come.
AS> As for historical examples...there have been fewer
AS> atheists than nonatheists, but certainly Napoleon didn't believe.
RB> I was speaking of contemporary examples, not historical. The improved
racial
RB> and sexual tolerance we often see today is the result of political liberalism
RB> and progressive thinking. The same is true for a less aggressive stance
toward
RB> other nations. 'Some' theists have gone along for the ride.
I consider both. Think of Martin Luther King, a minister and very
progressive, or the present Rev. Jesse Jackson. Eldridge Cleaver is now
preaching the word of God, if you know who he is. Or Daniel Berrigan, a
priest who helped release the Pentagon Papers, if I remember rightly,
during the sixties. If the religious right has the upper hand now, it is
a temporary thing. Dorothy L. Sayers was a strong believer in women's
emancipation, and a strong Christian, and found they need not conflict.
RB> It would be interesting to know what 'percentage' of current theists
and
RB> nontheists exhibit no (or little) racism and sexism. Of course, MY
money
RB> would be on the home team.
Hmmm. And how would you rank those who dismiss the religious as the
"lesser educated"? Bigoted? Or nonbigoted? Bigotry is often defined by
what you approve of, and disapprove of.
AS> Nevertheless, I think religion can have a beneficial effect much
of
AS> the time, while acknowledging such obvious exceptions as Torquemada.
RB> The question of believing in something that has an arbitrary beneficial
effect
RB> is an entirely different one than 'does that belief have any basis in
reality'?
RB> It seems the latter should take precedence over the former.
Oh, I agree. I thought we were talking about both.
... "A simple case, but in some ways an instructive one"--Sherlock Holmes
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 07 Apr 96 03:06:00
EID:fea1 208718c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 031CB468
RB> A case could be made for 'higher intelligence' being nature's fuck up.
It
RB> fucks up the environment and it fucks up the 'normal' progression of
evolution.
RB> The question is, can we get smart enough fast enough, before we completely
RB> fuck things up?
Right. And you don't contemplate going the OTHER way. If someone said to
me tomorrow, we can make you blissfully happy forever, but you need to
get a lobotomy to do it, I would laugh in their face. There are things
worse than unhappiness.
AS> rather than any other animal. The only thing that seems capable of
AS> killing man off (granting no naturally occurring superflu) is man.
RB> Is it coincidence that young healthy men are traditionally killed in
wars? The
RB> very segment of the population that would bloat it's numbers if they
were to
RB> stay alive? Maybe that's the ultimate government conspiracy, hmmm?
I once remarked on the insanity of sending those who can father the most
children out to die, being sent by those who are often not going to have
any more children, they're so old. It should be the other way around.
AS> I'm reminded of the Clifford Simek story in "City" where man was remade
AS> to fit into a hostile enviorment...I think Jupiter...and found the
new
AS> form so blissful that he did not want to return to his regular body.
RB> Perhaps those who embrace religion also find a kind of bliss and they
don't
RB> want to return to reality.
"Take up your cross and follow me". It's not always blissful, Rob.
AS> as a veterinarian sometimes has to give a dog shots which, are in
the
AS> dog's eyes, both painful and unnecessary, so God might have to do
AS> something to us which seems momentarily cruel yet serve a greater
good.
RB> That just about excuses ANY cruelty God could impart, doesn't it? "I'm
going
RB> to give you stomach cancer now, but it's for a greater good."
Oh, most ailments are simply the laws that God set up running their
course. You can't have both mutation and the body's ability to repair
itself without some of the mutations or repair mechanisms going crazy
sometimes. If they can stray one way, they can stray another.
AS> (And I must admit I would contenance any number of dead animals to
create
AS> a cure for AIDS or cancer, in the course of testing. I would not have
the
AS> suffer needless cruelty, but under certain circumstances, I would
much
AS> rather an animal suffer than a human.)
RB> Although some humans are more deserving of suffering than some animals.
Granted. But talking in the aggregate, we have to make a distinction.
Otherwise it would be murder to swat a fly.
AS> I daresay we of Gallifrey surpass even them...OOOPPSS!!!! (uh oh.)
AS> Pay no attention to what I was saying, and I agree completely.
AS> (SUUURE I do.)
RB> Your complexion isn't a little on the grey side, is it?
A GREY?? Hmmmph. We of Gallifrey never associate with such riff-raff. We
Time Lords laugh at them as we leap into our Tardis.
... Integrity is like virginity: you only lose it once.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: (1/2) LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 07 Apr 96 03:07:00
EID:7a62 208718e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 031CBFE4
lb> Now, in any other situation, there would be no difficulty -- if I
lb> dislike the majority of the group with which I am affiliated, the only
lb> honest and sensible thing to do is to leave the group.
FR> Or try to change it from within -- but that's only if there's something
worth
FR> salvaging.
Fred, we've had our differences in the past, but I OWE you one for that.
I'll explain why...someday.
... "Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust! **
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: All
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 04:09:00
EID:8d41 20872120
MSGID: 1:116/19 035DF9E6
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Al Schroeder <=-
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
MH> Once again, Al ... please forward.
I'm going to post it to "ALL" instead, if you don't mind. I said those
other two would be the only things I would send directly to her to
circumvent her twit filter, but you've doubtless not read that yet. so I
will compromise this way. Marilyn can read this, or not, as she wishes.
BTW, received an email from Dave Oosterman today, and all I can say is
congratulations and good luck!
MB> Once again, you've made my point for me. He sees it as a question
MB> of seeing things his way, or else you're wrong. That IS my
MB> definition of a fundy. According to his definition, Lynda is a
MB> heretic, as is Spong, whether he uses that word or not. And,
MB> rather than see me go half way and accept Spong's view, he'd
MB> rather be "right," even though the act of making me "wrong" has
MB> forever condemned me to eternal...whatever. Nice, Christian
MB> fellow-traveler you've got there, Al. It never occurs to him that
MB> it might be Spong who is "right" and he who is wrong, and that
MB> he's put a roadblock in my path that makes HIM responsible for my
MB> trip to perdition. No room for HIS error. No room at all. He's a
MB> fundy, Al, pure and simple.
MH> What Marilyn fails to understand is that I DID explore the issue of
MH> whether Spong might be right. But I did it several years ago, and
MH> concluded that he is not.
MH> Again, she interprets my disagreement with her as my dogmatism. She
MH> never bothered to ask me why I disagreed with Spong, what reason I
MH> might have for doing so. She simply pronounced me "fundy." The fact
MH> that I've read several of Spong's books and articles, and examined
MH> them critically, is irrelevant to her. Being intelligent and
MH> open-minded, in Marilyn's view, means kowtowing to Marilyn.
MH> And I'm supposedly the closed-minded one. Hmph.
... I'm an absolute, off-the-wall fanatical moderate.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: ISMS
|Date: 07 Apr 96 04:06:00
EID:ccd5 208720c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 035E01C0
AS> But it doesn't have to be religious fundamentalism. Kurt
AS> Vonnegut came from a long line of sceptics, but his
AS> mother's suicide...as many suicides do...cause him to feel
AS> guilt, even though there was nothing he could do to stop it
MM> But it seems he found solace in words his late Uncle Alex, the
MM> atheist, told him one time should be used by religious skeptics
MM> as a prelude to their nightly prayers: "To whom it may concern".
And end it with "Forward to the Appropriate Address" instead of "Amen"?
But I think most of his family are atheists and skeptics, and have been
for generations.
... LIFE: Well, one thing led to another, and then we died.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Norse mythology
|Date: 07 Apr 96 04:07:00
EID:217e 208720e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 035E0BC0
AS> More drama than the Olympians, I think. The Olympians are
AS> basically in a celestial Club Med. They can do what they
AS> want, without real consequences, without any real tension.
AS> It makes it good for comedy or even situation comedy or
AS> soap opera...like a celestial Riviera. But the Norse
AS> there is always a feeling that they are just managing to
AS> dam the chaos that is waiting. They're more like cops.
MM> It sounds like you guys got most of your impressions of Nordic
MM> mythology from Wagner's operas. Nobility...HA! Those were extremely
MM> earthy gods. Consider the way the love/fertility goddess Freja is
MM> being addressed in the Codex Regius Edda poem "Lokasenna" (Loke's
MM> quarrel). As I am no poet I can't give the true flavor of the
MM> original stave-rhymes, just a loose translation.
That's okay, I know it. Or when Freya spread her legs for all those
dwarves to find her lost husband, Od. Or the time Loki convinced Thor that
his impotence was because he was pregnant, and stuck a cork up him. Or how
Loki turned into a mare to seduce the stallion who was helping the Frost
Giant build the wall around Asgard, and as a consequence, gave birth
to...was the mother of...Sleipnir, Odin's steed. Very earthy. But of
course, you could say the same about the Olympian gods. NEVERTHELESS, the
whole point of Valhalla, for instance, was to have the best soldiers with
Odin and the Aesir during the fight with the forces of evil during
Ragnarok. Practically everything long-term Odin did was with Ragnarok in
mind.
MM> Aegir, the gods' brewmaster, gave a big bash. Most of the gods were
MM> there, and the ambience was terrific. Blazing gold was used as
MM> torches, and the beer walked around on it's own. The guests started
MM> praising Aegir's servants, but Loke (god of fire) was plastered and
MM> got so annoyed over this that he killed one of the servants. The
MM> other gods rattled their shields and drove Loke out, after which
MM> the party continued. Some time later Loke came staggering back in,
MM> and a quarrel broke out between him and the guests, where all kinds
MM> of ugly and sarcastic accusations flew in the air. This is what
MM> he shouted at Freja:
MM> Shut up, Freja! I know you only too well
MM> You are not free of errors
MM> All the sons, both of gods and elfs
MM> Have you had for whoring
MM> Shut up, Freja! Loathsome female
MM> You are filled with falsehood
MM> Remember when gentle gods found you with your brother
MM> You, Freja, let loose a fart
MM> Finally, after having yelled "fire scorch your arse" to his host,
MM> Loke fled and hid in a river in the shape of a salmon. The gods
MM> caught him anyway, and tied him up with rope made from his son's
MM> intestines. Over his head was placed a snake which dripped poison.
MM> His faithful wife Sigryn is still sitting there by his side,
MM> catching the poison in a bowl. Each time the bowl is full she goes
MM> away to empty it, and the poison hits Loke in the face. Then he
MM> makes such a racket that the earth is shaking. This is the origin
MM> of earth quakes. :-)
To say nothing of his part in the death of Balder, and his keeping Hel
from giving Balder up, by being the one person (in the guise of an old
woman) to keep Balder in.
There is nothing comparable in Greek mythology to the sense of
foreboding doom here. Especially since Loki will break free one day, and
ride the ship made from the fingernails of the dead with the Frost Giants
for a gigantic Ragnarok in which both he and Heimdall will slay each
other, Thor will be killed by Gormungand, the Midgard Serpent, and Odin
slain by Frenris. Your own concluding detail, how Loki was bound..the only
close parallel that occurs in Greek mythology is Prometheus.
I think you have proven my point for me. And I think I have shown my
knowledge of Norse mythology is a little more extensive than that of
Wagnerian operas.
... The Norse gods' favorite music--Ragnarok'n'roll.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Styx Allen
|Sub: Re: Return of property
|Date: 07 Apr 96 04:02:00
EID:d530 20872040
MSGID: 1:116/19 035E14F8
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to All <=-
-=> Quoting John Brawley to All <=-
JB> To all who write me:
JB> I must not write into this echo after today, for 90 days, so that I
JB> can have my property returned to me by the person who borrowed said
JB> property awhile back. I cannot, therefore, answer your messages.
JB> Apologies.
GR> To all:
GR> I can not return John's book to him. That was not part of the
GR> agreement. If I returned my book to him I would be breaking my word
GR> and I can not do that. I am a man of honor and will keep my word with
GR> John.
GR> george
Styx. Just after I uploaded my previous messages to you, Kevin sent me an
e-mail about what you did to George. Well done. That post would blister
paint! Thanks again. He will not be missed.
... To boldly go where no sane man has any business.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: ACLU News 04-04-96: Abortions, Prisons, Playboy or Playgirl
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:07:04
EID:a187 208860e0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 16926af2
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from ACLU.Newsfeed-Owner@villa.fc.net (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 06 '96, 19:18
From: ACLU.Newsfeed-Owner@villa.fc.net
To: news@aclu.org
Subject: ACLU News 04-04-96: Abortions, Prisons, Playboy or Playgirl
Sender: owner-news@aclu.org
Precedence: bulk
----------------------------------------------------------------
04-04-96
ACLU Newsfeed -- ACLU News Releases Direct to YOU
----------------------------------------------------------------
TODAY'S NEWS:
* NC Judge Voids Law Curbing Abortion Protests
* Florida Senate Bans Weight-Lifting in Prison
* Court Allows Inmates to Get Playboy or Playgirl
* Abortion Clinics Report Drop in Violent Incidents
* TX Town Separates Religion and Sports
----------------------------------------------------------------
*NC Judge Voids Law Curbing Abortion Protests*
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- A North Carolina judge invalidated state and federal
laws that restrict protests at abortion clinics as unconstitutional, The
Charlotte Observer reported in its Wednesday editions.
In a 60-page ruling, Judge Robert Potter ruled that the laws target abortion
opponents and deny them First Amendment rights to free speech, the newspaper
reported. The ruling overturns the state's No Obstruction of Health Care
Facilities Act, and the federal Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act
(FACE) of 1994.
Most U.S. courts have upheld the federal law, making it unclear whether
the
judge's action was binding. The ruling, however, will ban police officers
in
the western federal district of North Carolina from using the laws to control
protests at abortion clinics, the paper said.
The ACLU's Reproductive Freedom Project, however, strongly disagreed with
the
judge's First Amendment ruling, saying "as an historic defender of free
speech, the ACLU has long supported FACE, and -- in fact -- lobbied heavily
to get it passed."
"FACE permits peaceful protests and the exercise of free speech. What it
doesn't allow is physical obstruction and the use of force or violence to
block access to clinics," the ACLU said.
----------------------------------------------------------------
*Florida Senate Bans Weight-Lifting in Prison*
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Muscle-bound convicts pumping iron in the prison
yard would be a thing of the past under a bill passed by Florida's Senate
on
Wednesday, Reuter reported today.
The Florida Prison Safety Act would ban weight-lifting equipment from
state correctional facilities. It passed 37-0 in the 40-member Senate but
faced opposition in the House, where an identical measure has yet to be
heard
by committee.
``We have a policy currently in place in our prisons that inmates should
play and not work,'' said Sen. Charlie Crist, the bill's Republican sponsor.
``It should be the other way around. I think this is the direction that
Florida needs to go.''
State correction officials have spoken out against the measure,
cautioning that barring weight-lifting equipment is a potentially dangerous
move because it eliminates a hobby for idle prisoners in institutions
chronically understaffed.
Florida would join a handful of other states that have barred
body-building equipment. Arizona, South Carolina and Georgia have already
banned weights from prisons.
Corrections officials who have spoken as part of the ACLU's CenterStage
program on America Online have criticized moves like Florida's. "The net
effect, I fear, is we may return to the early era of prisons of the late
70's
in which over crowded institutions with little activity resulted in at best
federal court intervention and at worst disturbances and riots," Washington
State Secretary of Corrections Chase Riveland said last December.
----------------------------------------------------------------
*Court Allows Inmates to Get Playboy or Playgirl*
RICHMOND, Va. -- A federal appeals court decided Tuesday that Virginia
authorities went too far in taking away sex magazines from prision inmates,
The Washington Post reports.
The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that a state corrections policy
preventing prisoners from subscribing to sexually oriented publications
violated the First Amendment rights of the publishers. Before any magazine
can be banned, the court said, the publisher must be notified and given
a
chance to appeal.
The decision was hailed by Montcalm Publishing Corp., an erotica company
that
produces Gallery magazine, which brought the case in 1992 after inmates
in
Southwest Virginia complained that their copies were being confiscated by
prison officials who said the magazine was obscene.
State policy justifies the correction department's control over publications
as a way "to maintain security, discipline and good order." Among other
publications that have been banned at one time are Playboy, Playgirl,
Penthouse and Hustler.
"Although we recognize the First Amendment's somewhat limited reach in the
prison context," said Margie Heins, Senior Staff Attorney at the ACLU, "I
can't see the rationale for banning these publications, and violating the
free speech rights of publishers, as well as prisioners."
----------------------------------------------------------------
*Abortion Clinics Report Drop in Violent Incidents*
NEW YORK -- A new survey by abortion providers has found that violence and
harassment at clinics by anti-choice protestors dropped significantly in
the
first seven months of 1995, The New York Times reported today.
It is the first time in the three years of the annual survey, conducted
by
the Virginia-based Feminist Majority Foundation that more clinics reported
decreases in violent incidents.
Among the 310 clinics surveyed, 39 percent reported instances of serious
violence and harassment like arson and death threats in the period of study
last year, compared with 52 percent in a comparable 1994 period.
The group attributes the trend to a 1994 Federal law known as FACE (Freedom
of Access to Clinic Entrances), which permits civil and criminal penalties
against those who use force to obstruct clinics, and to a 1994 Supreme Court
ruling that upheld the constitutionality of "buffer zones" to keep protestors
away from the offices.
"The pro-choice community should be congratulated for creating an environment
in which violence and threatening tactics have become unacceptable," said
Laura Abel, a lawyer with the ACLU's Reproductive Freedom Project.
However, Able cautioned, while women may now have an easier time walking
into
abortion clinics, their access to abortions is constantly being restricted
by
legislative actions. In the past few months, several states have placed
restrictive biased-counseling and waiting-period requirements in the way
of
women seeking abortions, Abel said, and Congress recently passed a bill
that
for the first time would outlaw a particular abortion procedure.
----------------------------------------------------------------
*TX Town Separates Religion and Sports*
ELGIN, TX -- The New York Times reports this morning that a group of high
school athletes and parents have won an agreement from the Elgin school
board
that its public high school's sports program will no longer mix religious
activities and sports.
The Times said that a lawsuit filed in Federal District Court in Austin
last
month by the American Civil Liberties Union, five athletes and two parents
from Elgin, an agricultural Bible Belt community 24 miles east of Austin,
singled out the school district, its new athletic director and three other
high school coaches as having continually violated the students' First
Amendment rights throughout the school year.
An ACLU lawyer, Ann del Llano, said that a teacher originally contacted
the
ACLU about the First Amendment violations. "Students were starting to drop
out of athletics," she told the Times, and the teacher "was concerned that
more were going to be dropping out soon."
----------------------------------------------------------------
ONLINE RESOURCES FROM THE ACLU NATIONAL OFFICE
----------------------------------------------------------------
ACLU Freedom Network Web Page: http://www.aclu.org.
America Online users should check out our live chats, auditorium events,
*very* active message boards, and complete news on civil liberties, at
keyword ACLU.
----------------------------------------------------------------
ACLU Newsfeed
American Civil Liberties Union National Office
132 West 43rd Street
New York, New York 10036
To subscribe to the ACLU Newsfeed, send a message to majordomo@aclu.org
with
"subscribe News" in the body of the message. To terminate your subscription,
send a message to majordomo@aclu.org with "unsubscribe News" in the body
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For general information about the ACLU, write to info@aclu.org.
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___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:01:00
EID:c568 20887820
On 31 Mar 96 03:08am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to BECKE JONES:
BJ>> As I said before, it was a gradual thing. I was forgiving and kind-hearted
AS> to
BJ>> a fault when it came to Michael--maybe too much so...I thought that
love
BJ>> conquered anything.
AS> Too bad he couldn't do the same for you. Now, he's your ex. Was he
AS> ever jailed or anything for what he did to you?
I now believe he started the whole relationships with ulterior motives,
and
that he never sincerely cared for me in the first place. As far as being
jailed, I did press charges against him for the abuse, but he skipped out
on
court on more than one occasion. The one time he did get arrested, he was
out
on bail in 2 hours. He does have active warrants for all this, though...
BJ>> to kill me. She hit me upside the head with a liquor bottle and chased
AS> after
BJ>> me with a hammer aimed at my head.
AS> Wonderful. How is she now?
She's on medication for depression and in state's care for being a juvenille
delinquent....
BJ>> The above is just a few of many different things he did...And I know
I
BJ>> rambled a bit, but it'll bring me to the point I was trying to make...in
AS> the
BJ>> end, I didn't feel like I had any control of the situation at all anymore.
AS> I
BJ>> didn't feel like I had a choice in the matter...if I didn't put up
with
it,
BJ>> worse things would happen. The relationship ended because HE decided
to
BJ>> leave, because he knew I was at the point where I would have killed
him
BJ>> without regret or second thought....Scary, isn't it?
AS> Look, quite frankly, I probably would've. If I were sleeping to
AS> someone mistreating me that badly, I would've done it without much
AS> compunction, even though my religion forbids me to...because I think
AS> it would be a case of self-defense. That's HORRIBLE. And quite
AS> frankly, it makes me glad I was born a male. Yes, males can be
AS> victimized too, but it is not as pervasive a thing. If I had been
in
AS> your situation and could have thought up a fairly nondetectable way
to
AS> kill him, I wouldn't have hesitated much, any more than if I had been
AS> tied up and put in a dungeon, if I kill my jailer while escaping, I
AS> won't lose any sleep over it. But talk is cheap. Maybe I really
AS> wouldn't have done it in real life.
I considered it a few times. I would watch him sleep and think about
smothering him to death. Or, knowing that he gets drunk every night, I
thought about putting a shoe or something on the stairs so he would fall
and
break his neck. Or, on his many suicide attempts (for attention, no doubt),
I
would consider not calling 911 until after he was dead...But I never went
through with it, although I was very tempted to many times. I truly believe
that if he were there when I came home that last time, I WOULD have done
it,
without any regret at all.
BJ>> As far as what I'm looking for now...simple--just someone who will
treat
me
BJ>> like I deserve to be treated, and who wants to be treated the same
in
AS> return.
BJ>> No lies, no head games, no ulterior motives. Now, if I could only find
BJ>> him...-Becke
AS> David Rice, Becke Jones, Becke Jones, David Rice....(luckily Quentin
AS> has a girlfriend now...) I dunno, Becke. I think most men are not
AS> like that, but having been burned so baldy once, I'D be real
AS> hesistant about getting involved again, in your case. And that's a
AS> lonely way to live.
I haven't really spoken to David much...but he seems like a really
intelligent, friendly guy...As far as relationships go, I'm in a huge
mindfuck right now. I _want_ to get involved with someone, but I'm a lot
more
cynnical now than I was a few years back. But if the right guy comes along,
somehow, I think I'll know...and I will go for it.. I know myself a bit
better now, and know what I want out of life...that helps...
Becke
... Who gives a damn about apathy?
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 178
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ALT.FAN.STEVE-WINTER
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:01:00
EID:32d0 20887820
On 30 Mar 96 09:49pm, DAN CEPPA wrote to RYAN SHAW:
RS>> There is new newsgroup called alt.fan.steve-winter, I kid you not.
DC> Let me guess... The only allowed poster is Stevie Winter...
Actually, I've read the description for it...Steve has been increasing the
noise level in more than one newsgroup...That 'un was created so they'd
get
the discussion out of groups where it doesn't belong, such as the quaker
group, etc. Knowing Steve, he'll probably post anywhere BUT there...
Becke
... Barney is to television what Steve Winter is to Fidonet.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 178
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: BIBLE
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:01:00
EID:78dc 20887820
On 1 Apr 96 01:13pm, MICHAEL HARDY wrote to BECKE JONES:
BJ>> Preston I said I hoped he wasn't a fag. God does not want fags, I
BJ>> am only stating the truth, written in the bible.
BJ>> Hmmm...a direct contradiction to "God loves everyone", isn't it? So
BJ>> which is it, Brad? Is God's love conditional or unconditional? Does
he
BJ>> "love everyone", or "everyone except fags, witches, > whatever here>"?
BJ>> Being bi-sexual myself, why should I want to submit myself to a God
BJ>> that doesn't want to have anything to do with me anyway?
MH> God separates love of persons from judgment of actions. He does love
MH> evryone, but he judges sinful actions. We all sin, but some of us allow
MH> Jesus to take our sin with him to the cross. Those who won't do that
MH> are judged for their sins.
If homosexuality is a sin, is it a conscious one or unconscious one?
As for the rest of that statement--where is the choice in all that? If god
created man with sin, and all men sin--you're damned if you do, and damned
if
you don't.
BJ>> Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not [lie with] mankind, as with
BJ>> womankind: it abomination.
BJ>> Abonimation to whom? In your bible, God condones incest and rape,
BJ>> which in MY eyes, at least, is far worse than homosexuality.
MH> He does not. Incest and rape do occur, but there is no suggestion that
MH> God condones them. In fact, he strictly forbids both. If you think
MH> otherwise, please cite a passage to support your case.
Case in point: If you believe in Creationism, then Adam and Eve were the
only
humans on earth. They gave birth to Cain and Abel. Who was Cain's wife?
Obviously, it was Eve. That is incest. I didn't see any wrath come down
on
Cain for that, other than the wrath he incurred by killing his brother.
BJ>> Leviticus 20:13 If a man also [lie with] mankind, as he lieth with
a
BJ>> woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely
BJ>> be put to death; their blood upon them.
BJ>> For your God to "put to death" someone for simply doing something
BJ>> they have no choice but to do (homosexuality is not learned, it is
BJ>> hereditary) makes your God one cruel sick bastard.
MH> Pedophilia is also not learned. Should pedophiles be indulged? In fact,
MH> homosexuals DO have a choice. They need not act on their impulses.
MH> (That's assuming that it really is hereditary, which is far from
MH> proven.) I am sexually attracted to women who are not my wife; but
I am
MH> not a slave to those desires. I do not pursue the attractions because
MH> their fulfillment would be adultery.
Pedophilia can be learned, as can homosexuality. But there is a difference.
Homosexuality hurts no one--pedophilia does. As for the rest of your
paragraph. Regardless of whether I act on my impulses or not does not change
the fact that I am bisexual. If we are to believe that impure thoughts are
a
sin, then the actual thought is as bad as the actual deed.
BJ>> Cause then you wouldn't have the pleasure of seeing them roast in
BJ>> hell, you sick fuck.
MH> No one takes pleasure in the idea of hell, you sick fuck.
I'm not too sure about that, Michael. I've met many a Christian who took
pleasure in the fact that I was going to burn in hell. And wasn't hesitant
to
say so either.
Becke
... Hell is paved with Good Samaritans. - William M. Holden
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 178
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 1
|Date: 08 Apr 96 15:01:00
EID:b21c 20887820
On 1 Apr 96 01:20pm, MICHAEL HARDY wrote to BECKE JONES:
BJ>>>> Prehistoric man would be fictitious.
AG>>> Indeed he _is_ ficticious.
BJ>> How do you explain geological and archaelogical findings?
MH> Much of it has been rejected even by evolutionists. For example, it
was
MH> once thought that neanderthal man, cro-magnon man and modern man were
MH> distinct steps up the evolutionary chain. Now evolutionists admit that
MH> all three are fully human.
MH> Other alleged transitional forms have also been debunked. Many of
MH> them were reconstructed on scanty evidence to start with. Java man,
MH> pithecanthropus erectus), for example, was reconstructed based on a
MH> skull and femur -- which were later realized to have come from a gibbon
MH> and a human, respectively.
MH> Piltdown man, as everyone knows now, was a hoax -- yet evolutionists
MH> eagerly (and gullibly) greeted it as the necessary missing link to
MH> clinch their case, until the pranksters 'fessed up. They also went
wild
MH> over Hesperopithecus, reconstructed in the 1920s on the basis of a
MH> single tooth. When the complete skeleton was uncovered in 1927, it
MH> turned out to be that of a pig.
MH> Homo erectus is based on several incomplete skeletons, and nothing
has
MH> been found which suggests homo erectus is really any different from
MH> modern man. Australopithecus has been debated vigorously among
MH> scientists, yet there's nothing that really suggests it is anything
MH> more than a now-extinct ape.
MH> In short, the alleged ancestors of man are all either apes or people,
MH> with no distinguishing characteristics to set them apart. The only
way
MH> to see them as transitional forms is to *believe* that they are.
I saw an interesting episode on "Voyages" on A&E the other night dealing
with
evolution. There was a baby found in Africa around the same time as Piltdown
man, but scientists chose to go with the Piltdown theory since it seemed
more
rational at the time. Since then, they have went back and investigated the
African baby (can't remember the name offhand), and found conclusive
evidence of evolution since then. I'll have to do more research on this
one
to get all the facts organized.
The mistake you are making is that you are thinking of evolution as a ladder.
That one went from the other to the other, etc. Think of it more as branching
out. Somewhere along the line, conditions permitted mutation and evolution.
Evolution is more of set of branches rather than a ladder.
Becke
... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 178
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 226/700 10 600 270/101 218/801
|From: Wally Jabbusch
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: 2 Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 08 Apr 96 05:45:27
EID:d761 20882da0
PID: BWMAX2 3.19 Beta [Eval]
MSGID: 1:153/8009.0 31697219
EF> I just thought of something. Is it your contention that free will ends
EF> at the Pearly Gates? Or _is_ sin possible there? If not, if you
EF> somehow become perfect once there, how does this avoid the same
F> criticism you applied to my hypothetical (of God not creating the
EF> future "non-saved")?
Point of order... Was not the devil/satan on that side of heaven when
all hell broke loose.....pardon the pun.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: 3rd Planet Communications. [604] 521-4096 (1:153/8009)
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PATH: 153/8009 831 800 270/101 218/801
|From: Mona Noor
|To: 76422.3417@compuserve.com
|Sub: testing
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:56:26
EID:fa95 20889700
MSGID: 1:153/8009.0 3169c3ca
WPCH @XXXXX X X Panasonic KX-P1180t testing if
you recieve this message then please
reply on the listed address ok ok.Mona.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: 3rd Planet Communications. [604] 521-4096 (1:153/8009)
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PATH: 153/8009 831 800 270/101 218/801
|From: Mona Noor
|To: 76422.3417@compuserve.com
|Sub: testing2
|Date: 08 Apr 96 18:58:08
EID:babb 20889740
MSGID: 1:153/8009.0 3169c430
hello
just testing by choosing message area and E for enter.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: 3rd Planet Communications. [604] 521-4096 (1:153/8009)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: fof update, staal
|Date: 08 Apr 96 19:53:30
EID:756e 20889ea0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 167e836b
REPLY: 1:246/15 3160D5F5
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
SW> I worship The Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord God Almighty and the
SW> Holy Spirit only.
Do you eat with that mouth!?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 08 Apr 96 22:12:53
EID:428b 2088b180
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65090c2a
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 798d233a
On Apr 05 11:11 96, Marilyn Burge of 1:105/40.666 wrote:
RH>> Think of it as evolution in action. Besides, what do they
RH>> have worth stealing?
JH>> That's just another way of saying that it is the victim's
JH>> fault. It's bullshit, plain and simple.
MB> Are you saying that if I leave a loaded gun laying around,
MB> and my child ends up getting killed because he plaed with
MB> it, that it is bullshit to say it's my fault?
I didn't say anything about children and accidental shootings,
you introduced that element yourself. While tragic, they are a
minority portion of domestic shootings.
I fail to see the evolutionary benefit in a person being shot
by a drunken or enraged or just plain stupid family member.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Matthew Travers
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 08 Apr 96 10:45:21
EID:3edb 208855a0
MSGID: 1:202/1106.0 208855aa
TID: DBSMail 2.00e
MC>Did you ever wonder why Hal Lindsey was called the author of the decade,
MC>by the New York Times - an Establishment newspaper? The man is a Zionist
MC>stooge, and his job is to divide the Church (Catholics and Protestants).
Are all Zionists stooges? My great-grandfather saw his 1st wife and
children killed in a Nazi deathcamp. He escaped and ended up in
Yugoslavia, where he found that the rest of the world didn't like Jews
very much either. He had a Ph.D in Physics from a German University and
was an accomplished teacher and lecturer, but that didn't seem to help
him. Virtually everyone he met was not interested in helping Jews. in
his desperation, he even approached the Catholic Church. he was told
that even if he converted, they could not help him. he was supporting
himself by teaching English, and one of his students was an Evangelical
Christian. This Christian and his church helped Great-Grandpa when no
one else would. All I can say about Zionist Stooges like Hal Lindsey,
is that there should be more people like them walking around, in my
opinion. They helped our family, with no conditions, and we will always
remember that.
Matt Travers-The Teacher's Pet
--- DBSMail V2.00e [b774c786]
* Origin: The Teacher's Pet, Coronado, Ca (619)435-6288 (1:202/1106)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: All
|Sub: Re: direct pandering
|Date: 08 Apr 96 00:24:32
EID:2af7 20880300
MSGID: 1:374/14 31689500
PID: GenMsg 4.30 [0002]
Date: 08 Apr 96 04:24:32 UTC
* Copy of message posted via A_THEIST
* Date: 08 Apr 96 00:23:17
* From: Christopher Baker
* To: All
* Message text was not edited!
@MSGID: 1:374/14 316894B5
@PID: GenMsg 4.30 [0002]
@Date: 08 Apr 96 04:23:17 UTC
to his fellow 'Christians' from his bully pulpit for Easter. [sigh]
does anyone have any quotes on him about atheists not being citizens
like our gone-but-not-forgotten past president, George Bush?
TTFN.
Chris
- GenMsg [0002] (cbaker84@digital.net)
@ Origin: Rights On!-A_THEIST Echo Mod/Host-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbaker84@digital.net)
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Re: 1996-04-03 Proclamation
|Date: 08 Apr 96 00:01:39
EID:87d3 20880020
MSGID: 1:374/14 31688FA3
PID: GenMsg 4.30 [0002]
Date: 08 Apr 96 04:01:39 UTC
* Copy of message posted via A_THEIST
* Date: 07 Apr 96 23:57:36
* From: Christopher Baker
* To: Ann Nunn
* Message text was not edited!
@MSGID: 1:374/14 31688EB0
@PID: GenMsg 4.30 [0002]
@Date: 08 Apr 96 03:57:36 UTC
In a message dated: 05 Apr 96, Ann Nunn stated:
AN> For those of us who believe in the separation of church and state,
AN> and who believe that the First Amendment prohibits at the very least
AN> the Federal Government from establishing religion in this country,
AN> here is an occasion to retch:
once a year whether we need it or not. [sigh]
IN> where they might worship without persecution. The authors of our
IN> Constitution recognized this history in the language of the first
IN> amendment,
hmmm. odd. the entire Constitution is devoid of any diety constructs at
all. what they recognized in the First Amendment was the ultimate danger
of allowing religion to get a foothold in government. Thomas Jefferson
was succinct in his admonition of the results in Europe of state
churches.
IN> and through times of uncertainty, sorrow, and pain, the citizens of
IN> the United States have called upon the wisdom and mercy of the
IN> Almighty for guidance and strength.
folks who never grew up, maybe. those who still wish their mommies and
daddies were kissing their boo-boos and shielding them from any personal
responsibility for anything. [sigh]
IN> A National Day of Prayer, first proclaimed by the Continental
IN> Congress in 1775, stems from the understanding that faith is a
IN> fundamental part of our Nation's social fabric.
and the theocrats in those days did their damndest to get their
superstition into our Constitution but were completely thwarted by folks
smarter and far more self-secure than said theocrats. as for 'social
fabric' and other rubrics and rhetoric spewed forth by fawning
politicians of every stripe, ours is a nation of laws - NOT of men
[generic: people]. the law sez no religion from government!
IN> In an impassioned speech before the Constitutional Convention in
IN> 1787, Benjamin Franklin put the importance of prayer in
IN> perspective, proposing that ". . . prayers imploring the assistance
IN> of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this
IN> Assembly every morning before we proceed to business . . . . " And
IN> so it has been to this day in statehouses all over our great land.
and when folks flew ABOVE the clouds and found nada but space, why
didn't their silly superstitions about 'Heaven' subside? why? because
fools and panderers, like politicians, still cater and kowtow to the
uneducated, the superstitious, and the priest-class. it's a shame. it's
an national shame.
IN> many of the same challenges as our forebears -- ensuring the
IN> survival of freedom and sustaining faith in an often hostile world
IN> -- and we continue to pray, as they did, for the blessings of a just
IN> and benevolent God to guide our Nation's course.
oh, brother. yeah. life is a bitch and then you die. get over it. there
isn't anything 'just and benevolent' about it. get over it.
IN> This occasion calls us to affirm our country's spiritual roots and
IN> to humbly express our gratitude to the source of our abundant good
IN> fortune. As we seek to renew the values that have long strengthened
IN> America's families and communities, let us reach out to God and to
IN> one another for wisdom and courage.
what happened to the 'often hostile world' in the previous paragraph?
who strings this sheep fodder together? let us obtain wisdom by
education and common sense and gather courage to forego this annual
desecration of our our American ideals and the U.S. Constitution.
IN> We should celebrate this day in the tradition of our founders who
IN> believed that God governs in the affairs of men and women, and
IN> who based their greatest hopes, dreams, and aspirations on the
IN> surety of divine protection.
these would be the same 'founders' who permitted slavery to stand for
another 100 years, right? the same founders who permitted women to
remain 2nd-class citizens for another 200 years? yeah, good idea. let's
turn BACK the clock to when men were men and women were women and
'witches' were burned at the stake in the name of 'god'. on second
thought..., let's NOT!
IN> The Congress, by Public Law 100-307, has called on our citizens to
IN> reaffirm annually our dependence on Almighty God by recognizing a
IN> "National Day of Prayer."
and WHICH 'god' whould that be, pray tell [no pun intended]? this is
obviously a contravention of the separation clause of the First
Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. but should this be a surprise from a
President from a state where a religious test for public office is
contained in the Arkansas Constitution regardless that such a test is
specifically PROHIBITED by the U.S. Constitution? [sigh]
IN> NOW, THEREFORE, I, WILLIAM J. CLINTON, President of the United
IN> States of America, do hereby proclaim May 2, 1996, as a National Day
IN> of Prayer. I encourage every citizen of this great Nation to pray,
IN> each in his or her own manner, seeking strength from God to face the
IN> challenges of today, requesting guidance for the uncertainties of
IN> tomorrow, and giving thanks for the rich blessings that our Nation
IN> has enjoyed throughout our history.
why don't you just encourage them to get an education? to eschew
superstition? to take personal responsibility for what happens to
themselves? a National Day of Science would be much more practical and
beneficial since that has some likelihood of having a real effect.
IN> IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this second day of
IN> April, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and ninety-six, and
IN> of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred
IN> and twentieth.
IN> WILLIAM J. CLINTON
i feel your shameless plea for votes from the sheep. [sigh]
AN> Makes you want to throw up, doesn't it? And this is from a
every year. [sigh]
AN> Democratic president! God knows what we will get in this
AN> tradition if AN> the God Only Party gets elected to that office.
theocracy, of course. they've been planning it for centuries.
AN> If we really believe in separation of church and state, I think
AN> that we should at the very least let him know with our cards and
AN> letters on that day that we find his proclamation offensive, else
AN> Smiling Bill will just go right along thinking that he's pleasing
AN> everybody.
no problem. his Internet address is:
president@whitehouse.gov
AN> What say ye?
i'm forwarding him a copy of this response via that address. i expect it
to do just about as much good as his 'National Day of Prayer'. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
- GenMsg [0002] (cbaker84@digital.net)
@ Origin: Rights On!-A_THEIST Echo Mod/Host-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbaker84@digital.net)
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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|From: In*Touch
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Re: 1996-04-04 President Greetings for Easter 1996
|Date: 08 Apr 96 00:24:24
EID:e474 20880300
MSGID: 1:2613/333 316894F8
PID: GenMsg 4.30 [0002]
Date: 08 Apr 96 04:24:24 UTC
* Copy of message posted via A_THEIST
* Date: 08 Apr 96 00:10:15
* From: In*Touch @ 1:2613/333
* To: All
* Forwarded by: Christopher Baker @ 1:374/14
* Message text was not edited!
@MSGID: 1:2613/333 316891A7
@PID: GenMsg 4.30 [0002]
@Date: 08 Apr 96 04:10:15 UTC
* Copy of message posted via WHITEHOUSE
* Date: 05 Apr 96 00:05:04
* From: In*Touch @ 1:2613/333
* To: All
* Forwarded by: Christopher Baker @ 1:374/14
* Message text was not edited!
@MSGID: 1:2613/333 30801d12
@TID: GE 1.11+
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
________________________________________________________________________
For Immediate Release April 4, 1996
EASTER, 1996
Warm greetings to everyone celebrating Easter.
Across America and around the world, Christians gather
on Easter Sunday to commemorate the central event in the history
of their salvation: the Resurrection of Jesus. This holy day
marks that moment in time when good conquered evil, hope
overcame despair, and life triumphed over death. Just as spring
brings warmth and beauty to the earth after a harsh winter,
Easter brings joy and new life to the spirit, reminding us that
no mistake or failing of the past can put us beyond the reach of
God's mercy.
In this age of great challenge and even greater
possibility, Easter's timeless message strengthens us for the
tasks before us. As we celebrate in churches and cathedrals, at
sunrise services and in family gatherings, we remember that our
lives have great purpose and value. We recognize that the life
and words of Jesus call us to works of caring and compassion, to
giving more than receiving. His death and resurrection are
powerful reminders of how God's grace is still at work in the
world in which we live today.
Hillary joins me in extending best wishes to all for a
wonderful Easter celebration.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON
# # #
---
@ Origin: In*Touch - Rochester, NY, USA (1:2613/333)
@PATH: 2613/333 5 270/101 396/1 3615/50 374/1000 98 14
- GenMsg [0002] (cbaker84@digital.net)
@ Origin: Rights On!-A_THEIST Echo Mod/Host-Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
--- GenMsg [0002] (cbaker84@digital.net)
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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|From: Thomas Biniasz
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: EVIDENCE...
|Date: 06 Apr 96 20:10:53
EID:b3cc 2086a140
Wow,
Why do you Hate God the way you do.
And to think all he ever did for us is Love us.
Don't be so mean. You are not as smart as you think you are.
Tom
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Sound Doctrine BBS (303) 680-7209 - Aurora, CO, USA (1:104/514)
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PATH: 104/514 710 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Thomas Biniasz
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: EVIL LOCUTION.
|Date: 06 Apr 96 20:19:25
EID:6abb 2086a260
With all your self proclaimed wisdom.......
.......................... God makes it a fools mind.
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Thomas Biniasz
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: FLOOD IMPOSSIBILITIES.
|Date: 06 Apr 96 20:15:32
EID:862a 2086a1e0
Marty,
Are you sure that the mountians were as they are now? height, Mass??
Was the Ocean as deep as it is now??
there are variables that you dont know for your fancy math.
But with God all things are possable.
Tom
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Thomas Biniasz
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: HEAVENLY FATHER
|Date: 06 Apr 96 19:57:33
EID:5e8c 20869f20
wow sue... you Quote the Bible pretty Good. :)
do you have a onling text or what?
tom
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Thomas Biniasz
|To: Jim Jones
|Sub: LEARNED MEN
|Date: 06 Apr 96 20:02:21
EID:6045 2086a040
Jim,
No need to cuss on the net...
Have a little respect... ok.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Sound Doctrine BBS (303) 680-7209 - Aurora, CO, USA (1:104/514)
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|From: Dennis Hall
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: WHAT IS A RELIGION?
|Date: 06 Apr 96 16:09:13
EID:a548 20868120
> DH> Atheism asserts that there is no God (god).
>
> Oh? Care to give us the name of ANY atheist in this forum which
> states that? Or are you just lying because it's expected of
> Christians?
>
> (And yes, I do expect an honest answer.)
Let me restate. Atheism according to Webster:
atheism (n) 1. a disbelief in the existence of deity. 2. the doctrine
that there is no deity.
atheist (n) 1. one who denies the existence of God.
What do the atheists (if any) on this board believe? Maybe I do not really
understand what someone here is saying when they refer to themselves as
an atheist. I'm looking for honest answers, and flames will be scoffed at
and then deleted into cyber-oblivion.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Sound Doctrine BBS (303) 680-7209 - Aurora, CO, USA (1:104/514)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:5130 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 478fbab0
JH>On Mar 22 13:04 96, Katherine Wintersnight of 1:381/123@fidonet.org wrote:
JH> KW> That, and another calender collection of all the dirty
JH> KW> pictures taken of 'famous women who've found Jesus'?
JH> If you made that just "dirty pictures of women who've found Jesus",
JH> you could have quite a collection. It's not at all uncommon for
JH> female "adult entertainers" (for want of a better term, 'porn-star'
JH> is inaccurate) who can no longer make money in the field to "kiss
JH> and tell" and start working the circuit as a speaker to church
JH> groups. Hell... if it worked for Bob Dylan, it'll work for anybody.
JH> Lets see... you could have the photo of Linda Lovelace fucking a
JH> dog and put a Bible verse under it. Something like Galations 1:24,
JH> "And they glorified Dog in me."
JH> Then there is former S&M/B&D performer Holly Ryder, whose
JH> hypertrophied clitoris is almost as big as her nose. (And she
JH> has a very big nose.) A fitting Bible verse for her would be
JH> something like Isaiah 5:14:
JH> "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself [...]"
ROTFLMAOSTC!!
J.J., with your warped, twisted, and utterly delightful sense of humor
this calendar could make a fortune.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Goooooooooooood Morning Vietnam." - A Cronaur
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Abortion
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:7b8e 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 090e9ded
SA> PS>As I have a friend who is heir to a chocolate business, this will
not
SA> PS>at all be expensive.
SA> KW> Is it a *good chocolate* business, or one of those cheap places
like
SA> KW> Hershey, et al? :)
SA>The Hershey's plant here makes pretty decent chocolate, for the
SA>price. Of course, standards _are_ different here. At one time,
SA>M&M's, etc, weren't allowed to be imported because the American
SA>standards for chocolate quality were deemed too low - so they
SA>opened up a plant here that met those standards. (This was even
SA>before Trudeau and his FIRA.)
I became a bit spoiled where chocolate is concerned while I lived
overseas. I'll eat Hershey's, ect if I can't get the good stuff.
Succhard is about the only thing that will tempt me to cross the border
and go into Juarez.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Is that seat saved?" "No, but we're praying for it."
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:706a 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 846e63e2
AS>AS> NS> Al Schroeder:
AS>AS> NS> 1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
AS>AS> NS> & 49% Inert Materials.
AS>AS> Well..uh...it's an interesting description...(?)
AS>AS> However, my WIFE doesn't find me "inert"...
AS>KW> Who's 'Ert'?
AS> That's what my wife wanted to know...
Well, dear, you're safe as long as Barb doesn't actually catch you 'in'.
I do wonder if Ert is related to the famed 'lerts'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...An elegant weapon, from a more civilized age.--OWK
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:b401 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6ae59067
DC>-> On 03-25-96 08:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> RB> Wouldn't that be a 'twitorectomy' and require the services
DC> DC> go to the doctor to take care of a Saladbaratoma...
DC> RB> Then, Bustilloz will have to do something about her cattyracts.
DC> DC> Right after Al get past his comicsitis attack..
DC> AS> I'm not sure what kind of ailments assail you...
DC>I'm aflicted with cronic apundicitis.
Yes, you do like to have people in stitches.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * 'The religious Right are a bunch of NUTS!'-Goldwater
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ANGELS...
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:f296 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f562385c
JB>C'mon, Dawn...angel seminars? Books? Video tapes? Not to mention calendars,
JB>candle holders, flower pots and all the rest of the assorted junk that
has
JB>gone with this fad. I see it in almost the same category with pet rocks.
JB>Except that you actually could hold your pet rock.
JB>You could say that only the ones profitting from this have a guardian
'angel'.
Judith, I think they figured out that the market is saturated with
'crystals'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...And the Dead shall rise up and quest for BRAINS!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: census
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:aec3 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e3a18f2f
SA> KD> And no sensible woman goes on a trip like that in late pregnancy.
SA>No shit.
SA>Of course, you do have your complete idiots. There's one woman
SA>here who's suing a local roller skating rink, because they
SA>wouldn't let her skate until she had her baby - she was 8 months
SA>pregnant. They did give her money back, and gave her a free pass
SA>or something like that for her next visit, but she's still suing.
SA>The depth and breadth of human idiocy never ceases to amaze me.
I found myself in the situation of having to make a 1300+ mile road trip
when I was in the beginning of my third trimester. It wasn't fun. The
whole idea of climbing on a donkey four weeks later makes my skin
crawl. This is a story that only a man could dream up.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "God has no religion"--Mahatma Gandhi
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:923c 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 08e42abd
AS>Yeah, my BBS thinks it will be fixed shortly with them going to a new
feed.
AS>Right now when I see a day when I don't get messages, I'm pulling a packet
AS>from the old BBS and cutting-and-pasting replies into the new BBS' packet,
AS>which is a pain, but better than nothing. So if I mispell anyone's name
or
AS>subject header, it's because I'm typing in THAT part by hand...
Well, I hope that by now your problems have been straightened out.
AS>KW> How proud you must be of him. The gift of a cool head in an emergency
AS>KW> is a valuable one. I'm gladdened to hear that your boys came through
AS>KW> this with so little emotional trauma. How are you doing on that
score?
AS>I think I'm okay now. But it was truly a stressful couple of weeks
AS>there....yes, Brian has learned being a cool head in an emergency, because
AS>with two handicapped brothers, he has had to learn resilency and
AS>responsibility beyond his years.
AS> Now, if only he didn't want me to upload that Power Rangers web
AS>page...
I'm sorry for the strain on Brian now, but what a valuable gift these
things will be for him to have in the coming years. While the problems
I grew up with were nothing on the scale of Brian's, I've often had
cause to thank the fact that I had to learn young to think and act
responsibly, because those around me couldn't or wouldn't.
As for Power Rangers, remember, this too shall pass. My
little is in the Barney\Lamb Chop stage, with dips into that frog on
Gullah Gullah Island.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Facts are stupid things." -- Ronald Reagan
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HI
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:abbf 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6f683953
AS>AS> AS> JH> Sorry, but if the Emperor is walking down the street buckass
AS>AS> AS> JH> naked, I reserve the right to giggle.
AS>AS> AS> KW> Or stare in awe. It depends on the Emperor.
AS>AS> AS> And the size of his sceptre, perhaps?
AS>AS> KW> Not to mention his orbs ;).
AS>AS> Hmmm...all the sudden to be "screwed royally" is more than just an
AS>AS> expression...
AS>KW> Truly, if he is a man to be looked up to. On the other
hand,
AS>KW> we can join J.J. giggling if he is a 'royal fuck up'.
AS>When they call him the "Father of his country" they mean it...literally.
Far better that then the ones that played 'Queen for a night'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Don't dispute death unless you've lived through it."
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 381/123 900 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: hi
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:df1c 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 05904647
JH>On Mar 22 13:04 96, Katherine Wintersnight of 1:381/123@fidonet.org wrote:
JH> SA> I'd love the excuse to go see Texas, though. I love praries and
JH> SA> deserts and wide open spaces, almost as much as I like
JH> SA> mountains. Oh, yeah, and meeting you folks would be neat, too.
JH> KW> From Canada TX would be quite a haul, several days by road.
JH> KW> When you factor in food and such, it might be as cheap to
JH> KW> fly. BTW, TX has mountains. TX seems to have a little bit
JH> KW> of everything, save tundra. :)
JH> I felt on commenting on Sue's message but never got around to it.
JH> It should be pointed out that if she is interested in seeing desert,
JH> San Antonio is going to be a disappointment.
True enough. If she wants desert, she's going to have to go a bit west.
JH> KW> The problem is finding any place that most of the
JH> KW> people here can get to without major expense and trouble.
JH> KW> New Orleans was suggested, but that was shot down due to the
JH> KW> cost of accommodations.
JH> How about Wichita, KS? It's centrally located. Shouldn't be
JH> expensive. Doesn't overly favor any group of users by being
JH> close to their hometown. And best of all, it's the home of a
JH> notorious nutcase preacher.
Personally, I'd accept any place that I didn't have to spend a small
fortune on a plane ticket to get to, and that had reasonably priced
hotels. I will admit that I would strongly favor someplace like Dallas
where I could get there for air shuttle prices (I haven't looked
recently, but about a year ago a round trip ticket to Dallas was less
then $100). Unfortunately, any place chosen is going to be bad for
someone. Maybe nominating sites and then voting would be the best way?
Weather would be a factor, also--I wouldn't want to drag Sue or the other
Canadians to El Paso in August.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "I think not," said Descartes -- and promptly disappeared
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: hi
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:6bd9 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0de8225d
SA> KW> From Canada TX would be quite a haul, several days by road. When
you
SA> KW> factor in food and such, it might be as cheap to fly. BTW, TX has
SA>Well, the time factor is a problem as well; flying, well. I don't
SA>really like flying if I don't have to (going overseas sort of
SA>demands flight nowadays), and besides the only thing I could
SA>really afford to travel on right now is my thumb - and I don't
SA>know if I really trust hitch-hiking through the US. I've done it
SA>through Canada in my younger, bolder days, but ..
No, I wouldn't recommend that. While some people claim that it is no
more dangerous than it ever was, it seems that every year they find
another nut case leaving bodies scattered all over the landscape.
Maybe someone here will win the lotto and pay everyone's way.
SA>Heh. I'm surprised my ophthalmologist didn't specificially
SA>preclude driving - turned out I was wrong about my vision in my
SA>left eye (it deteriorated from 20/325 (not 450, as I had thought)
SA>to 350; my right eye is completely shot at 20/525. In fact, I
SA>almost got hit by a car coming up from my right just moments ago.
I'm not that bad, I'm just nearsighted, with no depth perception.
Prism's give me a bit of depth in the near distance (so I don't have to
touch the pitcher to the glass to pour), but not enough to drive. I an
nearsighted enough to not be able to walk across a room, without my
glasses.
SA> The problem is finding any place that most of the people here
SA> KW> can get to without major expense and trouble. New Orleans was
SA> KW> suggested, but that was shot down due to the cost of accommodations.
SA>New Orleans would be fun to visit, too, but hey. Ah, well. Even
SA>if I can't make this GT, I'll be there in spirit. And I'd want to
SA>hear ALL about it. :)
Well, if we start doing the get togethers regularly, we can move them
around to give everyone a good chance to attend.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...A cat is, above all things, a dramatist.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:1b2e 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b7c7a0b0
JH>On Mar 22 13:04 96, Katherine Wintersnight of 1:381/123@fidonet.org wrote:
JH> JH>> I haven't seen any George Mooth's robo-posts lately.
JH> JH>> I'm disappointed. I've got almost a month's worth of
JH> JH>> material lined up and I need him as an excuse to post
JH> JH>> it all.
JH> KW> He was abducted. The greys got him, and now all he does is
JH> KW> sit around the house with a big grin on his face.
JH> Really?
JH> And just what did he do BEFORE he was abducted?
Why, he sat around the house all day with a big frown on his face
because all the big conspiracies ignored him. Now, after the aliens
abducted him, he no longer has to post reams of claptrap to feel
special. ;)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "I asked what you knew, not what you believed." - MacLeod
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Pantheacon Stuff 1/4
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:afdb 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org bfdbbdbe
NS> NS> Pyrotechnics can be a blast . . .
NS> KW> Tell me about it. At least I wasn't responsible
for
NS> KW> the seven foot penis stuffed with fireworks.
NS> Do I need to ask if this was a working of some sort? }:)
Yes, this was. It took place at a pagan gathering in GA a few years
back. The idea was that the base of the seven foot log was placed in
the bonfire, and supposedly, when the wood burned through, the fireworks
would shoot out of the tip. Well, it didn't quite work, and the menfolk
had to figure out how to disarm the thing (the women were to busy
laughing).
NS> KW> We work with scripts from time to time. What I find funny
NS> KW> is the guy with the elaborately calligraphied BOS trying to read
by
NS> KW> candlelight. Or the one in the long floppy sleeves setting his
robe
NS> KW> on fire (so much for the water on the altar).
NS> Will the person closest to him please stamp the HP out . . .
All to the ritual chant of 'Drop and Roll'...
NS> I remember stopping ritual because one of the cars had started a grass
NS> fire and we all had to rescue the chickens and ducks from the henhouse.
Talk about life affirming.
NS> Yum. There's a Pagan here locally who always has lots of people at
his
NS> Winter rituals because he makes a great ritual drink called apple pie.
NS> Pretty good alcohol content and very yummy. He won't part with the
NS> recipe, though . . .
Well, we use homemade mead, and I bake the cakes. Then afterwards we
have a major meal. If there is one thing that I've learned, the more
successful the rite, the more completely bare the company will strip the
cupboard afterwards. Anymore I just plan on it, and provide a good
meal for afterwards. I usually manage to avoid things that need a lot
of last minute work, so after the ritual, I just grab a couple of
helpers, and dish it up while the rest of the group is breaking down the
ritual area. Somehow, the voted on dessert always seems to be chocolate
at least in part.
NS> KW> Well, I've only made beer twice, but I do brew my own mead.
NS> I like people who do that too. Heh. I'm such a slut for homebrew .
. .
The homemade stuff is so much better. I will only drink homebrewed
or micro brewery beer. We stay away from it in the circle, though, two
members of my coven can't stand hops.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "God has no religion"--Mahatma Gandhi
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Pink?
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:3ec8 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 9bfb8ee5
SA> PS>It's not difficult to understand, really. But I pity the Russians
as a
SA>whole PS>almost as much as I despise some of them singly (and one Georgian
in
SA> PS>particular).
SA> KW> I do remember wondering, at about the age of 6 or 7 (this would
be mid
SA> KW> 60's), what all the fuss about communism was if they had to lock
their
SA> KW> people in to keep them. But, then, at that age I thought Radio
Free
SA>I wondered why they should want war any more than "we" did.
I suppose, having grown up with the US Army, that was a given. The USSR
was Daddy's enemy. As my first real memories concern the
hurried move to Florida during the Cuba crisis, I tended to associate
the USSR with every time Daddy went out into the field. It wasn't until
I was a teenager who began vigorously questioning everything about me
that I questioned the unthinking cold war stance that I had grown up
with. By that time I knew several people that had escaped from East
Germany. I remember that I reached the conclusion that communism as
practised was unworkable, and that if we managed to stave off an armed
confrontation it would collapse under it's own weight.
In my view, communism, as practised in the eastern block countries, also
served as an illustration of the foolishness and futility of attempting
to focus knowledge and education through an ideological lens. This is
a lesson those who wish to teach a 'christian' curriculum in public
schools would do well to contemplate.
SA> KW> Europe meant that the Europeans didn't have any radios.
SA>You, too? :) That phrase STILL gives me a gestalt shift at times.
I wonder just how common that particular misunderstanding was among
school children?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...A Pagan family is a loving family.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:cbdc 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b4c85d8b
AS> AS> MH> I'm not Oriental, but I am sometimes disoriented. Does that
count? :)
AS>AS> I guess so. I don't qualify...I lost some stuff in a fire by accident,
AS>AS> which would make me an Accidental, not an Oriental.
AS>KW> Al, are you trying to smoke out the punsters again?
AS>On a hotly debated topic? Of course. But I'm not trying to flame anybody.
Just sparking a crackling good time for all, eh?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Are they dead?" - Pugsley "Does it matter?" - Wednesday
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:2049 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f271d1de
SK>|07-=> Quoting David Worrell to Selena Kerr <=-`03
SK>DW> Yes, Selena, the world will end at 11:59 pm on December 31st, 1999.
SK>DW> How do I know, you ask? Because I'm the guy with his finger on the
SK>DW> button up here in Cheyenne Mountain.
SK>Cool.. so I guess now that I am talking to you I can use my charms to
persuade
SK>you not to do it! (:
Better watch out, David. She's about to slip you the pie. ;)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Good morning" is an opinion, not greeting.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:4f0f 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cfff4cc0
JH> As the world's largest consumer of poorly designed products it
JH> is our duty to see that this loyal ally not fall to the Godless
JH> Reds of the Yellow Hoard! (Or is that the Godless Yellows of the
JH> Red Hoard? I forget...)
J.J., just take the easy way out, and call them orange.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Tithe 01/
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:5215 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 92737933
EF>I didn't see your original post to me. This I got from Jim Germiquet
reply
EF>to you.
That has been happening with great and depressing regularity lately.
FIDO is a bad dog.
EF>Whether or not you were discussing "charities" (even though you never
once
EF>"specifically" used the words charity, charities, etc in your post, and
EF>the _SUBJECT_ header says "tithe") has nothing to do with the question
I
EF>asked you - the one you were unable or unwilling to answer.
Subject headers rarely have any relevance after the first
couple of exchanges here, Elliot. You need to go sit over in the corner
with Masochistic Maiden if you want to moan about non current subject
headers.
EF>Anyway since you accuse me of intentionally altering the meaning of your
EF>words by removing them from their context (oh and spare me from the dodge
EF>that you didn't "specifically" say this. If that isn't what you meant
then
EF>state *precisely* what you did mean) it seems appropriate to compare
what
EF>you said against what I quoted:
I'm not going to, little men, although I didn't intend to give you
credit for intentionally altering the context. I thought you had done
it from habitually sloppy thinking habits.
EF>KW> Saying that their priorities are one thing, then acting in a
totally EF> KW> different manner ...
EF>You have yet to demonstrate that anyone has acted in a manner "totally
EF>different" from their stated priorities. A case could easily be made
that
EF>"they" act in a manner "totally different" to some key Biblical teachings,
EF>but that isn't what you claim here, is it?
EF> KW> ...makes them fair game in my book.
EF>Perhaps, but why didn't you answer my question then? Here it is again:
EF>EF>What are you saying here? That people have a
EF>EF>right to decide what another groups priorities are?
EF>Is that what you mean by fair game?
(yawn) Okay, little boy. Let's try this one more time. Try to
understand the words as written. Try hard.
Now, here is the entire exchange between Richard and myself that got you
so ruffled:
*************************************
RM>KW>RM>KW>tell me 'god' unless you are willing to offer evidence that
t
RM>KW>RM>KW>physically translated to heaven straight from the alter. Who
RM>KW>
RM>KW>RM>Actually it's from the ushers room.... <
RM>KW>
RM>KW>Okay. I suppose heaven can be found in the preacher's pockets.
RM>Which Preacher's Katherine? yes, certainly the TV preachers,,, they
beg for
RM>lots of money but from my observation, very few preachers make a lot
of
RM>money. Usually it's the ones that are on TV who are bilking people for
their
RM>money. I know there are others but sooner or later they make it to TV...<
RM>I think it's the TV that's Evil.... *grin*.
So if you got rid of TV you would get rid of the evil? I don't think
so, Richard. The church (under whatever name) has been enriching itself
all along. Take a look at the cathedrals of Europe. At the local
churches rearing their beautiful rooflines proud against the sky. Then
look at the homeless and mentally ill huddled under the overpasses (did
you know that once bishops had a terrible time with the unsightly poor
sheltering between the buttresses of cathedrals?). That's not TV,
Richard, that's real life. Find out how much your preachers robes and
suit cost, what the price of the choir stalls was, the printers bill for
the programs...
Then find out how many hungry children that exercise in pride would
have fed. If you belong to one of the really fancy denominations, this
will horrify you. Do you have any idea how much a silver chalice to
serve up your god's blood costs?
***************************************
Now, as will be obvious to a person of average reading skills, the money
under question was that given to God. Richard than made a comment
concerning TV preachers (are you still following this, Elliot, or do I
need to simplify it farther?).
I then introduced the variation on the theme of the money's collected
for God being used to bolster man's pride. This is supposedly a big no
no where xtians are concerned. Did you know that, Elliot?
EF> KW> Selectivity editing EF>KW> my post to give yourself a target
EF> Selectivity editing? Target? Hahahahaha. Sorry my simple question got
you
EF>so flustered (too flustered even to answer it). However please re-read
(Continued to next message)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Quick, Jesus -- to the Godcave!" - Hector Plasmic
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Tithe 02/
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:a215 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3e80f75a
(Continued from previous message)
EF>your quoted words above. Then demonstrate your unsupported accusation
of
EF>selective editing is true.
Little man, what are you after, status? I'm sorry, but it had been a
long time since something like you has managed to fluster me. I do,
however, realize that it is probably very important to your ego to
think of yourself as capable of flustering a woman. As for supporting my
accusation, re-read the quote above. By the way, do you know how much
an average silver plated chalice costs?
EF>KW> makes you fair game in my book, also.
EF>Gosh! Whatever shall I do??
Hold onto it with both hands and wail. Or at least that's what you've
done so far.
EF>KW> This tends to make your live and let live stance look a bit,
EF>KW> shall we say, hypocritical.
EF>Even assuming your premise were true this is inane. Since your premise
is
EF>demonstrably untrue, it makes your accusation doubly vacant.
No, Elliot, this isn't inane. You are inane. And your demonstration
failed.
EF>Personally, I count as hypocritical those who offer up fact-free
EF>allegations while looking down their nose at fundamentalists for doing
the
EF>same thing.
Oh, so you admit that the fundies are prone to fact free allegations?
Or is it that you are denying that the fundies like big fancy churches?
Or maybe you don't believe that their christ said "Feed my lambs",
preferring to 'feed the shepherds'? Elliot, the fundies wouldn't get
looked down on if they didn't make it so very easy.
Now, let's take another look at your question.
EF>EF>What are you saying here? That people have a
EF>EF>right to decide what another groups priorities are?
No, Elliot, that is not what I said. I said that there is a visible
discrepancy between what they say their priorities are, and what they
show their priorities to be.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Quick, Jesus -- to the Godcave!" - Hector Plasmic
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:b144 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 12da1f99
DW> DW>> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male
DW> DW>> scum - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't
DW> DW>> phase those of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
DW> KW> David, I would judge you to be 'real true Southern Male Scum'.
'Lord,
DW> KW> but men are dumb'. No doubt you are now going to indulge in a fit
of
DW> KW> stomping, growling, and masculine bravado, with the end result of
the
DW> KW> women gathering in the kitchen to giggle about you.
DW>Is that so? Hmmm... why is it I feel like doing nothing more than laughing
at
DW>your futile attempts to get me to eat that damn pie? :)
As I was saying...
DW> KW> Then, someone will decide to handle you with judicious amounts
DW> KW> of patently false (to every one else) flattery, and an appealing
DW> KW> flutter of feminine helplessness, and she'll be the one to slip
DW> KW> you the pie.
DW>Before you waste time trying, flattery won't work either. Feel free to
expend
DW>the effort, though.
DW> KW> And if all else fails, freeze 'em.
DW>Once again, won't work. I grew up around this shit, remember? Unlike
those
DW>False Southern Scum, I realize when ditzy broads are trying to manipulate
me.
DW>:)
Then why are you *so* defensive? ;)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Lord, but men are nothin' but big ol babies...
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Vote for Rapture.
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:2c07 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c065853d
NS> NS> Yeah, and by that time we'll be ready for some real holy wars
NS> NS> involving some of the local Deities. Another downside, though,
is
NS> NS> that it's supposed to be a time when the gates of Hell open up and
NS> NS> everything inferno starts partying. I guess that means we get to
NS> NS> see Assmotrin again . . . };)
NS> KW> Ugh. He's in the xtian group, they can have him.
NS> Poor Assmotrin, too big an idiot for the Athiests and Pagans, too big
a
NS> jerk for the Xtians. Maybe he can join the Shriners.
"Coy, how'd you get that motorcycle up on the high dive,
anyway?"
NS> KW> Well, supposedly these two mafia hit men are dying of cancer. The
NS> KW> pope offered them a contract to kill Satan, in return for which
he will
NS> KW> guarantee that they go to heaven. Wouldn't wiping out Satan mess
up
NS> KW> their holy prophesy?
NS> You betcha, providing he could die. Let's see here . . . Satan dies,
NS> and either goes to Heaven or Hell. If it's Heaven, then our beliefs
NS> about him being a button guy for YHVH seem true. If Hell, he certainly
NS> isn't going to rule there anymore. He'll be hip deep in the lake of
NS> boiling blood (I think Dante ate too much pizza the night he came up
NS> with this one, but its a great image, almost as good as the city of
NS> Dis) yodeling his lungs out. Either way, with Satan dead, no more sin,
NS> no more temptation. Without sin, no one has to go to Hell, so
NS> J.J.Hitt, Dan Ceppa, yourself, me, Gwenny the Pooh (where has she been
NS> recently, btw, does anyone know?), David Worrell, Styx Allum, etc.,
can
NS> all go drinking in Heaven and taunt the heck out of Hardy, Brad, and
NS> Jim. Then we'd probably hit a 7-11 for some munchies and head for the
NS> Summerlands for some dashing through the foliage. It would be a good
NS> time. I hope those guys succeed. }:)
Certainly it would be fun if it went that way. On the other hand, if
we all got ourselves stuck in a situation where they tried to enforce
the 'sitting at the foot of his throne, singing his praises', well,
Yahweh would find himself scowling through endless repetitions of "Air I
am, fire I am," ect.
Or if Satan finds himself stewing in blood, the continuation of Hell
after his death would indicate that a new 'Devil' had been appointed by
the big boss upstairs, and that business would go on as scheduled.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Good morning" is an opinion, not greeting.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: WHO'S WHO
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:17eb 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org feaf75ff
AS> AS> Sorry, Jim. I like to know who I'm talking to.
AS> RS> But you DO! It's Jimbo minus the medication.
AS> I understand Jim is showing up at irc chat, according to Lynda...
I've seen him and Lump both there a few times. Are you ever going to
show up? I'd enjoy chatting with you.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "For Reply, send a self-abused stomped elephant to..."
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:7e23 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7274d61b
SM> > It doesn't matter. Someone who uses such an idea, even in jest,
is a
SM> > little sick, and I feel sorry for the woman in your life.
SM>This brings up an old question, Al.
SM>How in the FUCK does a man like this GET a woman in his life, when there
are
SM>quite gentle and ethical men out there who would happily be where the
assholes
SM>are!!??!!?
SM>You have any insight on this one??
Take a look at the fathers of those women, or the stepfathers, ect. In
many cases (but not all) the women grew up in an environment that damaged
or destroyed their self esteem.
SM>Why didn't Judith, for example, meet Leo Bandsma BEFORE she married the
SM>arch-asshole who beat her??
SM>Why is David Rice -- one of the most gentle and ethical men alive --
still a
SM>virgin??
SM>And WHY -- in the name of Wotan, WHY!! -- do men with the beater disease
EVER
SM>succeed in attracting ANYONE??!!?
I don't know why the gentle men have more trouble finding mates, unless
it is because they are ethical and not likely to mentally and
physically screw over a woman to get laid.
However, Sean, you will noticed that those of us who got burned and
managed to get out of the abuse loop treasure and adore our gentle,
strong, sane, ethical men.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Go forth and hassle all nations."
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 08 Apr 96 13:16:00
EID:5120 20886a00
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f61130aa
AS> You read of these intelligent, articulate women, like Judith, or
Lynda,
AS> or Gwenny, stuck in relationships which were both abusive and terrifying,
AS> and quite frankly, you wonder why they didn't get out earlier, and
why
AS> they were attracted to that sort of man in the first place. I invite
AS> comments by any women who can explain that.
Pride is a big part of it. You don't want to admit that you've made
that big a mistake. Another part of it is that most women who've found
themselves stuck in an abusive situation have been isolated from outside
contact, and in some degree or another convinced that something that
they are doing is bringing on the abuse. The abuser is usually carrying
on about something you've supposedly done just before he starts
swinging (You go out of your way to embarrass me, don't you! You think
that you are so smart! Why can't you behave like a decent woman! SMACK!!
Can't you ever learn! WHAM!!!)
AS> Ladies, these are but guesses on my part, and probably ignorant ones.
AS> You have described, in sometimes grisly detail, what you had to go
AS> through. What Sean and I wonder is what attracted you to such a male
in
AS> the first place? Any guesses?
The set up. Peter was handsome, polite, possessive, and very attentive.
He looked like a great catch. He didn't hit me until we'd been engaged
for several months. He didn't even verbally abuse me until after I had
committed to him. Before that, he was the ideal prince.
And then there is the aftermath, the 'making up' time. It takes a few
times for most of us to catch on to the fact that the real world is the
beating and not the making up. Afterwards you are hurt, scared, and
totally emotionally devastated. You feel like you have nothing to fall
back on, nothing to hold to. When the guy turns on the petting and
promises, it feels like that is the only safety in the world to cling to.
And the whole time he's convincing you that it was something that you
said, or did, or simply are that triggered the whole thing and drove
him into that behaviour. That it is your fault that he is no longer
acting the wonderful man her was at first. So you are a bit shakier, and
a bit more likely to try to avoid setting him off, and it happens over
and over and over....
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...And God smote Egypt with a plague of zucchini.
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [1/2] AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 08 Apr 96 11:20:10
EID:3017 20885a80
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31697129
>>> Part 1 of 2...
As usual, Jim Germiquet flatuated "AVOIDING THE QUESTION" at
Don Martin, adding:
>JG> Easy, Obesity is real, Obesity is hell ...therefore Hell is real !
DM> What is the most fun about you is your arrogant
DM> assumption that you have MADE some sort of point, when all
DM> you have done is utter a fallacious syllogism (excluded
DM> middle) on the pattern of "God is love: love is blind:: Ray
DM> Charles is God", one formerly suspected in a weak attempt at
DM> humor. With the above, you demonstrate that you take your
DM> silliness (and yourself) seriously.
>JG> Are you being deliberately obtuse. or do you really have
>JG> difficulty of comprehending the concept of "hell".
>JG> War is HELL
>JG> Pain is HELL
>JG> Drugs addiction is HELL
>JG> Alcoholism is HELL
>JG> Depression is HELL
DM> Are you being deliberately obtuse, or do you really have
DM> difficulty comprehending the concept of "metaphor"?
JG> metaphor - a figure of speach in whic a term or phrase is
JG> applied to something to which it is not literally applicable
JG> in order to suggest a resemblance as "A mighty fortress is
JG> our God". Now what part of that don't you understand , or
JG> you think I don't understand ?
Given your track record, I suspect you understand none
of it. You are attempting to offer metaphoric uses of the
word "hell" as evidence for the reality of such an entity
apart from the human mind/imagination. The section from your
canned definition above, "not literally applicable," would
suggest to a person who has successfully passed the fifth
grade that such an attempt is silly.
JG> If you can only understand hell as a pit of fire and
JG> brimstone with a little red guy with horns and a
JG> pitchfork standing watch, then
DM> Never having seen any evidence whatsoever for "hell"
DM> apart from metaphor and human imagination (the same thing,
DM> really), I do _not_ so understand the term. Why would you
DM> suppose that any sane person would understand it the way
DM> you suggest?
JG> Are you telling me that you see no connection at all with
JG> the above subjects. That you do not see the MISERY or *HELL*
JG> associated with each of them.
Are you simply trying to say that human existence can be
very, VERY painful at times with your "War is hell, etc."
mantras? Then use the term "misery" and there is no problem.
Yes, indeed, people can and do feel very, VERY miserable.
JG> I have so much difficulty believing you are that dense that as a compliment> so I must conclude you are
JG> deliberately ignoring the implications compliment>. !!!!!!
Implications do not evidence make. And a compliment from
such a one as you would doubtless be more painful than an
insult from a real person.
>JG> I suppose you might as well stop reading my messages because
>JG> obviously you will be unable to comprehend what I am saying.
>JG> Just add me to your twit list and save us both some time, okay ?
DM> Your arrogant assumption of the day seems to be that your
DM> discourse is so refined and complex that mere mortals are
DM> too limited to understand it.
JG> Give me a break. I have taken these concepts down to a point
JG> where a 10 year old can understand them !
Had you done that, you might demonstrate a better
understanding of them yourself.
DM> I only twit those insufficiently ridiculous to become
DM> the butt of a joke. Since you are flagrantly ridiculous, you
DM> stand in little danger of that.
JG> Have you looked in the mirror recently?
Daily. I understand and am quite at ease with myself. I
thought you were going to put ME on your twit filter--you
promised you were going to. Another Christian oath broken.
Later, you demonstrate your broken promise to twit me by
saying:
JG> I believe that man also has a "spiritual"
JG> existence as well as a physical one.
DM> And upon what do you base this charming belief?
JG> I base it on the relationships of men towards each other.
JG> Some people are very polite and helpful, others choose to be
JG> rude and harmful. This indicates to me a difference in the
JG> "spirit" of people.
These same differences are considered by most people as
the product of their differing personalities. Personally, I
define "spirit" as the sum total of a person's aspirations,
emotions and self-comprehension. This definition
sufficiently handles the distinction between persons you
propose.
JG> It is represented in the bible as when
JG> man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The
JG> idea of right and wrong behavoir.
Another metaphor. Well and good.
JG> I am not sure of the process of this spiritual existence, but we
JG> seem to have evolved into a creature that can understand such non
JG> physical values as love, truth, peace, forgiveness, good and evil.
DM> The use of reason and empathy is sufficient to explain
DM> our understanding (and even practice) of these abstractions;
DM> once you have established a basis in fact for a "spiritual"
DM> existence for man, please go on to demonstrate how this
DM> existence yields a better understanding of these things than
DM> does reason and empathy.
JG> Oooooo... you use the words "reason and empathy" . Well it
JG> may explain our understanding and practice of these
JG> "abstractions", but it doesnt explain why some people choose
JG> to be mean and nasty and others choose to be nice and kind.
Perhaps encountering ignorant little twits such as
yourself brings out the worst in us.
>>> Continued to next message...
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [2/2] AVOIDING THE QUESTION
|Date: 08 Apr 96 11:20:11
EID:cff3 20885a80
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3169712a
>>> Part 2 of 2...
JG> And even if you do choose to use other words to
JG> describe the condition or idea or concept of the "spirit", I
JG> do have a dictionary which defines spirit as "the
JG> incorporeal part of human beings in general or as an
JG> individual, as the soul. So let there be no mistake but that
JG> by DEFINITION man has a spirit. Ok?
How nice for your dictionary. Does it offer any EVIDENCE
of this "incorporeal part of human beings" beyond what I
have defined above? Aspirations, emotions, and
self-awareness are pretty incorporeal, and that much I
_will_ say "OK" to.
Later still, you again demonstrate your broken promise to
twit me by saying (incidentally, could you possibly combine
messages? You have no idea how depressing it is to look
forward to "5 personal messages", only to discover that
three of them are from you):
DW> You do realize you just shot yourself in the foot, don't you?
JG> I merely reiterate that any murders done on earth have been done by
JG> people CLAIMING it was gods will.
DM> Numbers 31:17-18
DM> "Now therefore kill every male among the little
DM> ones, and kill every woman who hath known man by
DM> lying with him. But all the women children, that
DM> have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive
DM> for yourselves." (words by Moses, typing by Rice)
JG> PROVE those are the exact words of Moses.
You haven't been paying attention (again): I don't DO
"proof", dipshit. I offer evidence. First off, I acknowledge
that these are NOT the exact words of Moses: that worthy did
not speak English and these are in that language.
The evidence: these words are from a generally accepted
translation of what passes as the original. Moses is
traditionally credited as the author of the first five books
of the OT, and I believe that Numbers is one of those five
books. If that is the case, then these are the words of
Moses, according to that tradition, just as are the other
goodies you might wish to retain divine sanction for, like
the ten commandments and whatnot. Throw out this baby and
you lose a helluva lot of bathwater.
JG> Also the
JG> perceptions were also of a very primitive time and people. I
JG> only "suggested" that perhaps God did not say to do those
JG> things and I have indicated that even if he did, it would be
JG> because those primitive people could only understand that
JG> kind od "language" of war, and to do any less may have
JG> invited them to regroup in the future and again assail this
JG> weak minded nation that would allow their enemy to prosper
JG> and not exact a savage toll to any enemy that would dare
JG> attack them. And also would ignore their perceived weak God.
Rationalizations attempting to gloss over the primitive
son of a bitch that is this god.
JG> Simply put, you cannot judge the actions and perceptions of
JG> a people 10,000 years ago by the standards of today.
I agree. Tell the fundies to stop trying to apply the
actions and perceptions of a group of savages of 10,000
years ago to the laws, schools, etc. of today's society.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 08 Apr 96 11:33:26
EID:faad 20885c20
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3169712b
REPLY: 1:123/319 570490de
Mark Craig said "False Prophets" to Preston Simpson,
adding:
PS>Did you ever wonder why no one accords you even the slightest
PS>amount of respect and you are roundly regarded as being
PS>a particularly stupid example of non-sentient life?
MC> Your mammy is calling you.
And thine (as I pointed out some time back in a message
that appears to have been eaten by Fido) barks for thee. She
is doubtless in heat again (it IS Monday, isn't it?).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: children
|Date: 08 Apr 96 11:53:56
EID:2de8 20885ea0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3169712c
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b08
Fredric Rice said "children" to Michael Hardy,
adding:
FR> A far better moral and ethical ideal would be to treat
FR> others as they like to be treated. Try that.
mh> Please practice your superior ethic -- treat me as I
mh> would like to be treated, per the above description.
FR> I am. And you know it. You wouldn't be here if it weren't true,
FR> By the way: Your truth filter isn't working.
Bullshit! When have you EVER seen any truth in one of
his messages? It's working FINE!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:04:52
EID:d049 20886080
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3169712d
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64f0871e
J.J. Hitt said "Johnson Smith Catalogue" to Don Martin,
adding:
JH> On Apr 04 13:54 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
DM> Johnson Smith Company
DM> 4514 19th Street Court East
JH> I'm suprised they give a street address.
JH> I have to wonder if they have a showroom.
What WOULD you use with the "severed human hand" jello
mold to get a display that wouldn't melt or draw flies?
(Though the flies would be a pretty realistic touch.)
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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40
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:09:00
EID:d3cd 20886120
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3169712e
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 31660283
Jerry Gilbreath said "SCIENCE VS. FAITH" to Judith Bandsma,
adding:
JB> JG> and several dating methods for the earth indicate an approximate
age
JB> JG> of about 20,000 years or less.
JB>If this is so, please explain how we can see starlight that takes longer
JB>than 20,000 years to get here.
JG> Given current estimates of the distance of the stars and the
JG> speed of light, 20,000 years is probably a good number. However,
JG> I do not believe that the speed of light has been constant since
JG> the universe was created. Some scientists believe that the
JG> speed of light has been slowing down.
Name three scientists who do, and present the reference
to the peer-reviewed journal in which they present their
evidence for so believing.
Elsewhere, you say to me:
DM> We have an account of a global flood directly produced by
DM> Yahweh in the Bible. Given the fact that we have information,
DM> presumably from a source inspired by omniscience, of the extent
DM> of the flood ("over the highest mountains," or roughly 30,000
DM> feet above present sea level) and of the time of the rain (40
DM> days and 40 nights = 40 24-hour days = 960 hours), it is easy to
DM> calculate the rate of the rainfall: 30,000/960 = 31.25 feet of
DM> water fell per hour. That is little better than six inches of
DM> rainfall per minute.
JG> Impressive! However, your calculations are based on
JG> inaccurate data. According to Psalms 104:8, the mountains
JG> were not as high before the flood and the valleys were not
JG> as low.
Ah, wonderful--the three-inch mountain evasion! Not much
water needed there, all right, but the event becomes a tad
less dramatic. Now, what evidence (apart from the mystic
imaginings of Psalms) have you for the mountains actually
being significantally shorter 6,000 years ago?
DM> We know from geology that floods leave evidence in direct
DM> proportion to their size (this stratum would, for instance, be
DM> far thicker than any other ever created and would cover all the
JG> Take a look at the Grand Canyon. It contains hundreds of
JG> feet of sediment that was deposited rather quickly.
Would you be so kind as to provide your evidence from a
peer-reviewed journal of geology that the sedimentary
deposits of the Grand Canyon were laid down within the past
6,000 years?
JG> If you know any geologists, ask about the hummocky cross
JG> stratification found there. It is a formation that is
JG> created by rather violent storms. Hurricanes in the Gulf
JG> have made similar formations, but on a much smaller scale.
As it happens, we DO know a geologist right here on this
echo. Dr. Leipzig is away at the moment raping the soil of
the former Soviet Union, but I shall save your message to
forward to him. When he returns, brace yourself.
And if you have been getting this "hummocky cross
stratification" stuff (and the slowing down speed of light
idiocy) from the publications of the ICR (Institute for
Creation Research), you may wish to apply some K-Y jelly
before assuming the stance.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Easter
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:12:27
EID:e43d 20886180
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3169712f
Alan Hess said "Easter" to all,
adding:
AH> It's Easter, folks. About 2,000 years ago, Jesus came out of his
AH> hole, and saw his shadow. Six weeks of bad weather followed.
Six weeks of bad weather, hell! It was 2,000 years of
variously armed religious nuts.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Zionist-Hate Media
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:55:18
EID:a61b 2088a6e0
Whilst masticating on , Mark Craig (1:123/318)
wrote to All:
MC> Do you notice how the Jew media chooses to show the life of
MC> Moses, rather than Jesus, during Easter? They must really hate
MC> him -- jn.8:44. And to think how those hypocrites in our
MC> churches, have allied themselves with them.
MC> 1st. John says that anyone who does not accept him as Lord is the
MC> Anti- Christ, and not to sit-down with them.
Damn, BCA, you are one totally stupid, worthless algorithm. Your jealousy
of Jews is obvious.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:57:34
EID:1215 2088a720
Whilst masticating on , Rob Burcham (1:280/76)
wrote to Roger Hunter:
RB> I wonder if Mary Magdelene resembled Claudia Schiffer?
or perhaps Roseanne?
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:59:40
EID:a919 2088a760
Whilst masticating on , Don Martin (1:261/1000)
wrote to Mark Craig:
PS>>Did you ever wonder why no one accords you even the slightest
PS>>amount of respect and you are roundly regarded as being
PS>>a particularly stupid example of non-sentient life?
MC>> Your mammy is calling you.
DM> And thine (as I pointed out some time back in a message
DM> that appears to have been eaten by Fido) barks for thee. She
DM> is doubtless in heat again (it IS Monday, isn't it?).
Test tubes bark now? Isn't science amazing?
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 1
|Date: 08 Apr 96 21:13:52
EID:12f2 2088a9a0
Whilst masticating on , Marilyn Burge (1:105/40.666)
wrote to Anthony Grigor-Scott:
AG>> The laws of thermodynamics, or atrophy (chaos).
MB> The correct term is "entropy," and you understand neither it nor
MB> the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Add that to history and Jewish law, both of which he also doesn't understand.
Maybe that should be a new Holysmoke FAQ - what AGS doesn't understand.
Of course, it would take far less typing to make a list of what AGS does
understand.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [1]
|Date: 06 Apr 96 21:09:06
EID:9128 2086a920
MSGID: 1:271/460 316727eb
REPLY: 1:207/212 3b4d9a2b
Tuesday April 02 1996 08:16, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Actually? It's not opinion, it's fact. Anything which lists only 2
KD>> options when there are other logical options is a false dichotomy.
KM>> There is only two options, period, fancy words won't change that fact.
KD> Huh? There are a multitude of options. In addition to your Christian
God
KD> and the existence of no supreme being at all, there are also all of
the
KD> other supreme beings postulated in all religions and cultures, as well
KD> as the possibility that no religion or culture has the accurate picture
KD> of the creator. Cummulatively and separately.
My view, there are all the other false religions in the world, if my "religion"
turned out to be false, I don't see how any of those that I consider false
could become a possibility. YOU might see other options, I however do not,
and still hold that there are only 2 options, either God from the Bible,
or none at all. You want to consider that the others might be true, go ahead,
I'm not that confused about what is real and what isn't.
KD>> For example: an unwillingly pregnant woman saying "raise the baby/have
KD>> an abortion" as her only options is creating a false dichotomy, right?
KD>> Because there is at LEAST one other option.
KM>> Depends on the person.
KD> What depends on the person is which option she chooses and her
KD> situation. The existence of alternatives does not depend on the person's
KD> eventual choice. Just as your belief in the hideous evil god of your
KD> Bible doesn't mean that Zeus isn't real. Just because you CHOOSE NOT
TO
KD> AGREE with one particular option doesn't mean the option doesn't exist.
In my house there is only one option, we don't believe in abortion.
KD>> All I see are murders and the violation of my rights by Christians.
KM>> What classifies those people as Christians?
KD> Their use of the New Testament to justify their acts. Their definition
KD> of themselves as Christian.
If I call myself an American Indian, does that make me an American Indian?
I could call myself an aethiest, but that doesn't make me one either does
it? The actions of most so called Christians prove them not to be a Christian.
But most of the world would say see there, see what Christians do, instead
of look according to the teachings of Christ, these people are not the Christians
they claim to be.
KM>> And when he walked away he knew that Jesus Christ did die for his
KM>> sins, and that he was the Son of God, not just a prophet.
KD> He can't have known what isn't true.
That's your opinion, not his, and not mine.
KD>> A false dichotomy is proven by the existence of more than 2 options
KD>> when the other person is claiming only 2.
KM>> There are no other options.
KD> You're blind. There are tons of other options to your false Christian/no
KD> god dichotomy.
NO, I am a Christian, there is no other options, in order to be a Christian,
I have to believe that.
KM>> As a Christian, I cannot believe that there are any other options.
KD> You don't BELIEVE those options are CORRECT.
Just as you say, "He can't have known what isn't true." I can say, there
are no other options.
KD> There's a difference.
No difference, my believe, my opinion. Your opinion does not change mine,
or make it incorrect.
KD> Your
KD> disagreement with them as truth or not truth does not make them any
less
KD> possible from an objective point of view.
Nor does your objective point of view change my opinion or invalidate it.
We will not know which one is correct until after we are dead to this world.
KM> KD>>> How many alternatives were there to my being at that school?
KD>> Anser the question.
KM>> That's what I thought.
KD> That's what I thought - you can't get my point.
I've got your point, you keep trying to explain it, and cannot see mine,
why? Because it is different than mine, and from what you've said in these
posts apparantly haven't ran into a true Christian before.
KM> KM>>> Accept something that I disagree with? Why would I want to do
KM>> that?
KD> Accept that from a logical standpoint, your God/no god dichotomy is
KD> false.
Logic tells me if I believe them to be false now, that if I stopped believing
in the Christian God, I would not believe in any, especially those that
I know are false. If the Christian God does not exist, there is no god or
gods at all.
KD>> admit it is logically occurring, probably as you read this.
KM>> Logically occurring? I don't see the logic of it, it's plan fact, it
KM>> does occur? Logically? No, I don't see the logic of it, but then, I
KM>> don't have any
KM>> homosexual tendencies, don't see the logic of two men or women having
KM>> sex. Logically looking at how man and woman are made, they should be
KM>> having sex with the opposite sex, not the same sex.
KD> Admit that it is occurring as you read this message, even though you
KD> disagree with it morally.
That's different that beleiving that there are other gods. Disagree with
it morally, of course I do, because God didn't make it that way. BTW I should
not have to admit it to you, with the statement I made above.
KM>> And that is still your opinion, not mine, and never will be. Either
KM>> God exist, there is none at all. Period, end of line.
KD> Again, false dichotomy.
You can continue to say it, and I will continue to tell you, there is no
other option, no matter how much YOU disagree with it, there isn't.
KM>> Your opinion, your thoughts not mine. Just because you see it as the
KM>> logical option does not mean that everyone must think that way.
KD> I see them as precisely as logically probable as your god.
And you've been deluded by the devil.
KM> KM>>> conservinazi?
KD>> Christian right.
KM>> Never heard of it.
KD> I created it because of Limaugh's use of feminazi.
KD>> anti woman's rights,
KM>> No, I am not, I believe in the original intent of it.
KD> The Christian right opposed the ERA.
I am not part of the Christian right, and I did not oppose the ERA, I agree
with the original intent.
KD>> anti first
KD>> amendment,
KM>> hardly
KD> Yup! They don't want any group other than themselves to have control
of
KD> government.
Then they are not Christians, Christ taught us different than that.
KD>> anti anybody but white upper middle class and upper class
KD>> males.
KM>> Wrong again.
KD> I'm correct. Look at the idiot conservative politicians. They attack
KD> everyone but white upper middle class men.
Again, you apparantly have not met very many true Christians.
KD>> Pro fetus only because it gives them a handle to control women.
KM>> Pro fetus? You mean, anti abortion?
KD> Yup. There's no reason to give a fetus rights. Absolutely none. And
KD> those same embryos you want to have rights get thrown away on Kotex
KD> every day, unmourned, unsung, by women who are claiming that the embryo
KD> of the same age in some other woman is a PERSON with RIGHTS.
Was it living on it's on? Or was it forceably removed from the body?
KM>> And the evidence that you need has been provided, however, you refuse
KM>> to accept the scriptures as the evidence.
KD> I don't accept mythology as evidence of the truth of the statements
in
KD> the mythology, no.
Not asking you to accept mythology.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 06 Apr 96 21:05:05
EID:d007 2086a8a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 316723c7
REPLY: 1:207/212 e75e015f
Tuesday April 02 1996 08:15, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Yes, but I probably have a different meaning of a Christian than you.
KD> Because you change it as you please.
NO, I don't change it, it has always been the same. A Christian is someone
who is trying to be more Christ like. In other words someone that is following
Christ as the disciples did, and I am sorry to say, that there are very
few saved people that are Christians.
KM>> So if we were allowed in the garden of Eden, this planet, which we
KM>> still have to live on, would still be our prison would it not? (I
KM>> still don't think it's our prison) BTW there is another option.
KD> What's the other option?
Leave.
KD>> Easily. It develops the feeling that women are less than men, and thus
KD>> to be used by men. Men who see women out of place start getting angry
KD>> and wanting to put them back in their places.
KM>> Start getting angry? I don't believe that women should be pastors,
so
KM>> I automatically get angry about it? I'de like to see your source for
KM>> this belief.
KD> Women ARE in leadership positions over men at this point in time,
KD> correct? One of the motivations rapists express is that "I wanna put
KD> that bitch in her place." Clearly anger at seeing women doing things
he
KD> has been taught she shouldn't.
I've never been taught, nor have I ever believed that women need to be put
in her place. A true Christian would not use the b word to start with, and
would not see it as there job to put anyone in there place.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: 1996-04-03 Proclamation
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:53:00
EID:c3a9 2088a6a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89594393
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to All <=-
RS> For those of us who believe in the separation of church and state, and
RS> who believe that the First Amendment prohibits at the very least the
RS> Federal Government from establishing religion in this country, here
is
RS> an occasion to retch:
IN> NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER, 1996
IN> - - - - - - -
IN> BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
IN> A PROCLAMATION
RS> Makes you want to throw up, doesn't it? And this is from a Democratic
RS> president! God knows what we will get in this tradition if the
RS> God Only Party gets elected to that office.
RS> He has selected a Thursday, May 2, for this national religious ritual.
RS> If we really believe in separation of church and state, I think that
RS> we should at the very least let him know with our cards and letters
on
RS> that day that we find his proclamation offensive, else Smiling Bill
RS> will just go right along thinking that he's pleasing everybody.
RS> What say ye?
I say if this dog-and-pony show is the worst thing you have to worry
about, you should count yourself lucky and consider how you came to
have so much free time on your hands.
... Pull the other one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 08 Apr 96 21:31:00
EID:e4c6 2088abe0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89594399
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Dan Ceppa <=-
MB> On (05 Apr 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-> On 04-03-96 09:37, Marilyn Burge got back to Lynda Bustilloz
MB> enemies as I do by their friends. I consider the fact that
MB> you draw fire from the likes of Staal and Hardy to be pretty
MB> decent evidence that you are on the right track.
DC> Got a good way of condensing that into a tagline? If you can, I'll
DC> glady steal it from you. After all, atheists have no morals!
MB> A negative endorsement from Satan beats a positive one from God.
That's not really specific enough. How about:
If Staal and Hardy are against us, we must be right.
:)
(As you might infer, neither your opinion nor Marilyn's matters beans
to me.)
... Now, did you have a point to make?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:57:00
EID:0b92 2088a720
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89594394
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Now, suppose there are a GREATER number of people who can be
AS> created, who will choose good from observing its ill effects.
AS> Sometimes people are changed by personal disaster and tragedy
AS> into something greater than what they were. Some people's
AS> blood is set afire by injustice (Harlan Ellison comes to
AS> mind) and find nobility they never knew they had because they
AS> are angry at injustice. So God MIGHT (this is just a theory,
AS> remember) choose for a future in which people choose evil of
AS> their own free will, IF it will allow a greater number of
AS> people to be saved in eternity. That also implies that either
AS> Hell is really extinction of the soul, or He feels one saved
AS> soul is worth a hundred damned ones, because otherwise He is
AS> contenancing a greater evil to allow a greater number of
AS> saved, which would be choosing for evil. (Nor is that last
AS> alternative totally to be thrown out of court...a hundred
AS> thousand sperm cells are sometimes used in vain to produce
AS> the one sperm cell that unites with the egg and makes a baby.
AS> A glorified being who grows and matures in Eternity might be
AS> considered worth those who chose..of their own free will,
AS> remember, not by choice of God...not to take the same path. A
AS> path that results in more such individuals might be
AS> preferred.
MB> That totally negates the claim that god holds each of us to be
MB> "precious" and would have climbed upon the cross if there were
MB> only one "sinner." You can't have it both ways: either we are
MB> all precious, or else the vast majority of us are expendible
MB> for the sake of one soul making it into Nirvana.
MB> Which is it?
I don't see anything in what Al said to suggest a conflict with the
idea that all are precious. All are precious, but all are also free. As
Al puts it, God isn't *compelling* anyone to do evil, but merely
allowing it.
... An excellent rebuttal! Now, come up with one that addresses the point.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 08 Apr 96 21:02:00
EID:be7e 2088a840
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89594395
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Al Schroeder <=-
EF> Here is what I meant to say
EF> If God is omniscient then he had / has an opportunity to spare
EF> whatever portion of humanity that is destined to hell. He does this
by
EF> merely not creating those individuals in the first place. He creates
EF> only those who he knows will freely choose to do those things that
EF> will get them to heaven (whatever you say they are). It is, of course,
EF> no theological secret that many sinners are destined to heaven. So
EF> "saved" is a much better word for what I meant than what I used:
EF> "those who freely choose not to sin." Does that make sense?
EF> So be they repented sinners, or sinless saints, whatever and whoever
EF> they are, God knows them. God need create ONLY them - the ones going
EF> to heaven. No free will is violated.
EF> Better?
EF> I realize this no doubt renders some portion of your post moot (I have
EF> read your post only to this point). Again I apologize and will address
EF> those portions that remain, ah, mootless ... unmoot? Moot-free? Oh
EF> well you know what I mean.
Immootable. :)
EF> Except experience tells us there is always 10 (or 100 or 1000) acts
of
EF> evil for every noble counterpoint. To knowingly create the non-saved
EF> so that some might act nobly would condemn 10 (or 100 or 1000 or some
EF> number in excess) for every one saved.
EF> And what would be the point? If you were never created it isn't like
EF> you would miss it! The point is why condemn anyone to hell if it can
EF> be avoided. And an omniscient omnipotent God could avoid it. It
EF> couldn't be easier for him - just create fewer people.
The more I ponder your question -- and it is one of the more
challenging I've been faced with -- the more I'm sure my original
instinct was correct.
God knows all that is, but he doesn't know what isn't. In order for God
to know what people will go to hell, they first have to live their
lives and make their choices. God knows in advance what will happen
only because he sees all of time at once, and it actually does happen.
Thus, to do what you suggest, he would first have to allow the unsaved
to live and die, and then "erase" them -- which, as I said earlier,
would mean removing their influence from the lives of those around
them, which then changes their decisions, and so on.
That, or manipulate people's choices so they all become saved. Either
one mocks free will.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 08 Apr 96 22:02:00
EID:be7e 2088b040
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89594390
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
> EF> You miss my point. A poor choice of words on my part perhaps. Let
> EF> re-phrase the above to say "It would in no way deny free will for
> EF> your God to simply NOT create those individuals he knew would * e
> EF> in hell * and simply create only those people who he knows will
> EF> _freely_ choose religiously correct path.
>
> Wouldn't it, though? All of our choices are made based on a wide
> variety of influences, which certainly includes the words and actions
> of other people we encounter. If God erased all of those who choose
> unwisely, then the dynamic shifts. Whatever influence those people ma
> have had is now gone, and other people's paths will be skewed. God wi
> then have to erase another crop, which have chosen differently than
> they would have to begin with. There's no reason to assume this
> progression will end until God has erased everyone.
EF> First, you cannot errase what was never made and never existed.
You erased my explanation of how I perceive God's foreknowledge to be,
which explains why not creating those who will make bad choices is
"erasing." I don't accept your premise that God knows what doesn't
happen -- I believe God knows it before it happens, only because God is
not bound by time and sees all of time at once. It has to actually
happen, though.
In any event, though, there is still an abrogation of free will even in
the choice to not create the bad ones. It's like a "free election" in
which only the votes for Candidate A are counted, those for Candidates
B and C tossed out.
EF> Second
EF> it is silly to think that attaining heaven is predicated on the
EF> influence of other people - to the degree you surmise ("until God has
EF> erased everyone.")
Except that attaining heaven *is* predicated (in Christian theology) on
choosing to accept God's grace, and our choices are influenced by
others.
As an illustration, think of a young man sent to prison for robbing a
store. While in prison, he enocounters mother-rapers, father-stabbers
and father-rapers, and is filled with revulsion. He becomes a
Christian because he has seen the outcome of his path and wants to
change his direction.
Now, if those heinous offenders don't exist, our petty criminal
won't have that influence. He won't turn to God, for lack
of that bad influence. Then, as I said, the dynamic changes and
*he* would become one of those God would have to not create (or erase).
EF> Other than that you may have a point. I'll have to think about it.
Please do.
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Ducks?
|Date: 08 Apr 96 21:26:00
EID:247f 2088ab40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89594398
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Sue Armstrong <=-
DM> The world contains a number of shits. I remember reading about
DM> guys on Louisiana fishing boats stuffing lye into small fish and
DM> throwing them to the gulls to watch their distress. They thought
DM> painful death was funny. Probably all Christians.
^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
Hatemonger.
... Thanks for your opinion. I hope I can get it off my shoe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: evil
|Date: 08 Apr 96 19:26:00
EID:d7f8 20889b40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8959438F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Michael Hardy <=-
> We've probably reached an impasse on this point,
> then. It seems obvious
> to me that it *is* logically impossible for God to
> choose which world
> to create, without compromising free will. God
> created a world in which
> Utopia is possible, but not mandatory. We chose not
> to actualize that
> possibility.
AB> In that case, you owe a better account of free will, or indeed any
AB> account at all. Absent that, you're right that we have nothing more
to
AB> discuss.
I don't know what you mean, "a better account of free will." Explain,
please.
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Flood Impossibilities.
|Date: 08 Apr 96 19:22:00
EID:1d52 20889ac0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8959438E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mimi Milstein to Michael Hardy <=-
ML> It is quite clear that a Biblical Flood is and was quite
ML> impossible. Only fools and those shackled by dogma would
ML> insist otherwise.
MH> It is, IF you insist that it must have been possible by
MH> NATURAL means. This is the whole problem with your
MH> assumptions, Marty. The whole premise of Judeo-Christian
MH> religion is that a God exists who can accomplish things
MH> which are not possible through natural means.
MH> All of your arguments are correct (so far as I know) if we
MH> limit the possibilities to what's possible though natural
MH> processes. But theists accept no such limitation.
MM> and I think that really closes the chapter. Faith and/or illusions
MM> on one side, scientific methodology on the other - and never shall
MM> they meet or convince each other.
Neither do they need be divergent. The prevailing philosophy in modern
science closes the door on the supenatural without justification. That
limits the range of answers scientists can consider to any question.
That you relegate the supernatural to "faith and/or illusions" means
that you accept the prevailing scientific philosophy. That attitude,
rather than the truth, is responsible for much of the perceived
conflict between the two.
... Hester Prynne got an A for adultery. I barely made a C-minus.
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