God Damned Fundies!
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 10 Apr 96 00:47:58
EID:6420 208a05e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 316b50ad
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 70428536
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Kinda like sex, when you think about it ... :)
JS> I don't know...ask the lovely Wilbur...I'm usually in for the long
JS> haul.
Doesn't this activity usually take two people? So where have you
been when your wife has been getting all this experience to talk about?
Just curious
Sue
... I have a collect call from Reality. Will you accept...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 10 Apr 96 00:59:59
EID:f314 208a0760
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 316b50ae
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89544393
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
MH> I find I stand in some confusion over how to respond. I feel no joy
MH> in a "kill," as there is no victory won here. Anyone who thinks there
MH> is is misguided.
Ah, but there is a victory here, Michael, though I do not think this
is a "kill". The victory is that Lynda has come one step closer to
defining a system of belief that she can live with in her life, and it is
Lynda's victory if she cares to claim it.
MH> You are a Christian in a more philosophical sense. I think you
MH> sincerely try to live out Christ's teachings, although -- as you know
MH> -- I think you have a tendency to be a bit too pleased with yourself
MH> and disparaging of others.
Actually, I find that you have these problems more than she does, at
least in responses here in Holysmoke.
My 2 cents.
Sue
... I don't serve Satan; I don't have the recipe!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: drool game
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:19:00
EID:dd43 2088a260
MSGID: 1:128/50.0 316a43b5
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 298b99e2
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
Fredric was discussing drool game over in the corner...
MH> Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing
MH> thin. So I'm going to liven it up with a little game.
He has patience? Hmmmmmm.....
dc> Gee, that's nice. Are you leaving and coming back under an alias?
FR> What's so cool is that the buttmunch is pretending that any of us
FR> would even _notice_ were he to leave. He's trying to pretend that
Heck! I disappear from time to time, but there is usually a reason for
this. (Mostly, I don't have time to wade thru a bazillion messages from
morons... present company excluded.)
... ... Essential Wiccan software: Hex Calculator.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: Merlins Hideaway (1:128/50)
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Fred has daity constructs!
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:13:00
EID:8cd2 2088a1a0
MSGID: 1:128/50.0 316a43b4
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 298b99e1
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
Fredric was discussing Fred has daity constructs! over in the corner...
FR> Hey, I should sue Jim for slander, claiming that I'm just as ignorant
FR> and superstitious as he is.
I don't believe one word of it!!!
... FOR SALE: 1 set of morals, never used, will sell cheap.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: Merlins Hideaway (1:128/50)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Divine Retribution
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:57:16
EID:c5dc 208a7f20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316c129b
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Craig Divine Retribution wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MC> God is not mocked Trinity! Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart tried to
MC> make a fool out of God, and look what happened to them.
Better still, you're making an ass out of yourself. Where is your god?
... Smile. See? Stupid people will do anything anyone tells them to do.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: Mind Control
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:57:16
EID:6bbc 208a7f20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316c129c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Larry Jansen Mind Control wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LJ> Did you ever notice how the Jews try make themselves look like
LJ> victims? This way they can subvert nations with impunity. They are
now
Did you ever notice how you're too fucking cowardly to post consistently
with the same name?
LJ> "dragging out" the fabricated Holocaust again. Why don't we ever hear
Fabricated? Tell it to my history prof.; he works for the Canadian
government getting evidence against Nazis for war crimes.
LJ> about the "real" holocaust: where 65 million Chinese were murdered
by
LJ> Mao, or the 40 million Russians who were slaughtered by the Bolsheviks
LJ> and the Jews.
You'll be hard-pressed to link the Jews to the deaths of the Chinese under
Mao--just as you will be to link 'em to Stalin killing 40 million of his
subjects. Go ahead and drag out your evidence. Or are you afraid?
... Larry's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mike Archer
|Sub: Warning!
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:57:16
EID:8c4c 208a7f20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316c129d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mike Archer Warning! wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MA> Demons come as angels of light. Put your faith in Jesus, he is the
MA> way, the truth, and the life.
I'd ask you to substantiate this, but you and I both know that you haven't
anything but bullshit to base it on.
... Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is ETERNAL.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian...
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:56f6 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 09603724
JG>made you whole". There is power in faith.
There is also power in delusion.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus loves you. But then again, so does Barney.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:13c0 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 39f701d4
LB>your right in that sometimes it is very hard to tell from a distant if
some
LB>oneis a "true Christian" by his actions and words. So, Like you said,
we wil
Well, we are so very fortunate to have you around to let us know which
ones are and which aren't.
LB>and in both of these above cases, there true nature sooner or later came
out
LB>toshow how far from being Christ like they truly were. That happens
to the
Well, I guess all married 'christians' aren't 'true christians';
they're VERY unlike Jesus...
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:b0f7 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org cd748863
LB>large sea. There was also no rain before the flood. Also, not only
was
How did plants survive, moron?
LB>there rain coming down, but the discription says that the well springs
LB>of the earth opened up. So, we had a flatter earth, rain coming down
LB>and water coming up violently from below the earth, so as little as 3
LB>inch of rain an hour for 40 days would cover the earth (we had close
to
LB>that in Iowa in 1993). Also, this would have broke up the land mass,
and
No. You are lying. There was about 170 inches of rain in the summer
of 93 in the upper Miss. valley. Not the 2880 inches you're claiming.
LB>brought about mountains from the violent earthquakes that would have
LB>happened when the well springs of the earth was openned.
LB> I do agree that this is all speculation, but it does fit the
LB>observed present state of the earth, along with plate techtonics.
No, it does not fit. You are lying again.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundy brains for rent. Never used. Call 555-2132
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:6df9 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 0f05181d
LB>temple has nouthing to do with family geneology. I am a student of
^^^^^^^^^
LB>geneology, and can tell you that most jewish families still have records
^^^^^^^^^
That's nice. Too bad you can't even spell it.
LB> We do know that all people are descendents of Noah, we also know
Bullshit. 'We' know no such thing.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundys knee-deep in gasoline tossing matches at infidels.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Easter
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:88bf 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 5a3afaf6
AH>It's Easter, folks. About 2,000 years ago, Jesus came out of his hole,
and
AH>saw his shadow. Six weeks of bad weather followed.
BWAAHAHAHAAA...koff, spit...
damn you, you owe me a keyboard...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Once you get over the hill, you really pick up speed.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: EPISTEMOLOGY
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:0133 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 26340176
LB> I feel that you have oversimplified quantum theory. Even under
LB>Quantum physics, the existance of substance is still there, but what
it
LB>says is that on a small scale we cannot directly measure it. So, we
LB>deal with probabilities of existance. In term of electrons, this says
LB>that 95% of the time the electron is in close orbit of the nucleus of
You didn't give attribution for this plagiaristic drivel.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Science
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:4b4a 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 05e0594b
JH> THESE ARE ACTUAL EXCERPTS FROM
JH> STUDENT SCIENCE EXAM PAPERS (so goes the claim...):
JH> When you smell an odorless gas, it is probably carbon monoxide.
Dammit, you owe me a keyboard!
---
* OLX 2.2 * Pat is a Loose Buchanan.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:7620 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org ccf6be0d
JG>those of igneous rock. You would be hard pressed to find a mountain
JG>over 10,000 years old, however. BTW, have you heard about the
You *are* joking, right?
NO???!!!!
Then you're a moron.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundy brains for rent. Never used. Call 555-2132
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Grant Farrington
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Very much mythology!
|Date: 10 Apr 96 14:09:58
EID:092e 208a7120
MSGID: 3:640/201.3 316bc2dd
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b01
Hello Fredric.
06 Apr 96 13:52, Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Germiquet:
FR> Which merely serves to prove my point. No one can learn the origins
FR> of the classical Christanic mythologies and remain a believer in same.
This is one of the big problems IMO. There's so much "control code" built
into the Bible to keep believers away from searching out the truth. Everything
they do, all study ect is all handed down by thier masters. Reading anything
else, like science journals for instance, is deemed bad as everyone knows
this is Satan's world so everything not connected to worshiping Jehovah
is of Satan.
I haven't met a believer yet who thought that science wasn't bad. How could
they think anything else ? Science ridicules most of what the Bible says.
Grant
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta6 UNREG
* Origin: Wild Magic BBS Hervey Bay Qld OZ (3:640/201.3)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Jesus The Christ
|To: Jesus Christ
|Sub: Blowing holy smoke?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 14:21:12
EID:a045 208a72a0
MSGID: 3:640/201.3 316bc425
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64ee37df
Hello Jesus.
06 Apr 96 21:26, Jesus Christ wrote to Fredric Rice:
FR>> Nowhere in history has there ever been anything written by a
FR>> "Jesus Christ."
JC> Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find a decent publisher?
You must be one of these imposters daddy told me about :)
Grant
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta6 UNREG
* Origin: Wild Magic BBS Hervey Bay Qld OZ (3:640/201.3)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Norse mythology
|Date: 10 Apr 96 22:16:14
EID:410b 208ab200
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16c41916
REPLY: 1:116/19 035E0BC0
Hello Al!
Al Schroeder wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
AS> NEVERTHELESS, the whole point of Valhalla, for instance, was
AS> to have the best soldiers with Odin and the Aesir during the
AS> fight with the forces of evil during Ragnarok. Practically
AS> everything long-term Odin did was with Ragnarok in mind.
Maybe not so much 'forces of evil' as the older gods. The various
monsters in the mythology, generally classified as jaetter, are
believed to be remnants of an even older religion, and are thus
seen as something undesirable.
I wonder why Valhalla has such interest for most people. Nobody
seems to care about Gimle (where all the good and just people
wind up) or Naastrand (where oath-breakers and murderers spend
their time wading through rivers of poison). And as Ragnarok
means 'destiny of the goods' Odin should have been wise enough
to realize the fighters of Valhalla could not change his destiny.
This is really the alpha and omega of the norse mentality:
destiny and truthfulness - not foreboding and doom.
AS> To say nothing of his part in the death of Balder, and his
AS> keeping Hel from giving Balder up, by being the one person
AS> (in the guise of an old woman) to keep Balder in.
AS> There is nothing comparable in Greek mythology to the
AS> sense of foreboding doom here.
It is only doom for the old world order. Don't forget that
after Ragnarok several gods survive (Vidar, Tor's sons et al),
Balder and Hoeder come back from Hel, a pair of humans have kept
alive by eating dew, and best of all, the sun has given birth
to a daughter more radiant than ever. The world is getting a
new and better chance, and the remaining Asa gods will live
contentedly in Idavolde. THE END :-)
This is where the story finishes - and the norsemen came under
the influence of Christianity.
I like very much the practicality of the vikings during this
period... back home on the range they honored their old gods
as was their custom, but when they went in viking they were
baptized (again and again) so 'White Christ' could give them
victory. Different gods for different locations.
Have you ever seen Ingmar Bergman's "The Virgin Source"?
Even though it is basically a Crusader/Black Death story it
also gives the mood in North Scandinavia at a time where the
old religion was still secretly practiced by the lower classes.
I also have a gut feeling the old religion suited our mentality
better than Christianity does. 'Turn the other cheek' sounds
downright insane and dishonorable to many of us, and plenty of
the characters in OT would have been outlawed, and slain by any
respectable person. The whole Middle Eastern slant makes it
very difficult to cope with.
AS> I think I have shown my knowledge of Norse mythology is a
AS> little more extensive than that of Wagnerian operas.
You certainly have done so - my assumption was quite wrong
and I hope you forgive me (BTW I do like Wagner).
... Greetings from Mimi
PS: BTW, I always name my Rottweilers from the mythology:
Fafner, Erda, Embla, Odin. Odin and Embla are presently in
residens, but Fafner was my greatest love.... a 75kg giant.
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Flood Impossibilities.
|Date: 11 Apr 96 00:12:09
EID:cd60 208b0180
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16c41917
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8959438E
Hello Michael!
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
MM> and I think that really closes the chapter. Faith and/or illusions
MM> on one side, scientific methodology on the other - and never shall
MM> they meet or convince each other.
MH> Neither do they need be divergent. The prevailing
MH> philosophy in modern science closes the door on the
MH> supenatural without justification. That limits the range of
MH> answers scientists can consider to any question.
MH> That you relegate the supernatural to "faith and/or
MH> illusions" means that you accept the prevailing scientific
MH> philosophy. That attitude, rather than the truth, is
MH> responsible for much of the perceived conflict between the two.
Hey, don't put an attitude stamp on me. None of us know THE TRUTH.
"Faith and/or illusions" have this in common that they are concepts
of the mind, without any ironclad physical proof - which is why I
used them opposite scientific methodology (which DOES demand proof).
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: WHAT IS A RELIGION?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 01:44:03
EID:673f 208a0d80
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 3217594d
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
> atheism (n) 1. a disbelief in the existence of deity. 2.
> the doctrine that there is no deity.
>
> atheist (n) 1. one who denies the existence of God.
>
> What do the atheists (if any) on this board believe? Maybe
> I do not really understand what someone here is saying when
> they refer to themselves as an atheist. I'm looking for
> honest answers, and flames will be scoffed at and then
> deleted into cyber-oblivion.
I don't know what faith you are, but I'll assume you are some flavor of
Christian. If I was to define a Christian like this:
Christian (n) 1. One who denies the existence of
the god Zulex, supreme ruler of
everything. 2. The doctrine that
says Zulex does not exist.
That would be an accurate definition of a Christian, since they believe
there is no entity beyond their triune god. Yet what is wrong about this
definition is that it seeks to define in terms of what Christians *don't*
believe, instead of what they *do* believe in.
Now look back at the dictionary definitions you offered. All three define
atheism not in terms of what is believed, but in terms of what *isn't* believed.
As an atheist, I don't believe in a god. I can't prove a god does or doesn't
exist any more than a Christian can prove Zulex does or doesn't exist.
The existence (or not) of a god however really has little to do with my
beliefs as an atheist.
What do I, and other atheists believe in then? The following definition
comes from American Atheists, Inc. It is generic, because the atheist community
is diverse. But there are some things I think we'll agree on. This definition
works for me:
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which
unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at
establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by
experience and the scientific method, independent of all
arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.
And since Atheism is so closely linked with the philosophy of
Materialism, a definition of Materialism follows:
Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent
conscious purpose; that it governed by its own inherent,
immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no
supernatural interference in human life; that man-- finding
his resources within himself-- can and must create his own
destiny.
Materialism restores to man his dignity and his intellectual
integrity. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth
and strive always to improve it. It holds that man is
capable of creating a social system based on reason and
justice.
Materialism's "faith" is in man and man's ability to
tranform the world culture by his own efforts. This is a
commitment which is in it's very essence life-asserting. It
considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation
and impossible without noble ideas that inspire man to bold,
creative works. Materialism holds that humankind's
potential for good and for an outreach to more fulfilling
cultural development is, for all practical purposes,
unlimited.
We'll, that's one view, anyway. I am defined by what I believe in, not
by what I *don't* believe in. As usual, the dictionary defines the *common*
use of words. The dictionary is a language reference, not a philosophical
reference.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Christian? God demands you kill me. Write for details! (1:2613/102)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: CDA Court Challenge: Update #5
|Date: 10 Apr 96 12:32:47
EID:0a03 208a6400
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 16be5166
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Declan McCullagh (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty parker.
Original dated: Apr 10 '96, 12:14
From: Declan McCullagh
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CDA Challenge, Update #5
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Declan McCullagh / declan@well.com / Redistribute freely
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this update: Yet Another CDA Lawsuit: Fred Cherry v. Janet Reno
Deception and deceit from DoJ's Jason Baron
URLs for the DoJ's dirty picture list
The true identity of Grey Flannel Suit
April 9, 1996
PITTSBURGH, PA -- Fred Cherry wants a Federal court to uphold his
right to flame.
Lambasting "homonazis" on USENET is his inalienable right under the
First Amendment, argues the notorious netizen in his anti-CDA lawsuit
filed yesterday in New York City on behalf of "Johns and Call Girls
United Against Repression, Inc."
Cherry's beef with the law is that under its ban on "indecency," when
he gets flamed by "Australian homosexual nazis" he won't be able to
flame back. His complaint charges that his "Australian opponent will
have MORE freedom of speech" than he does -- unless the CDA is struck
down.
The self-taught amateur lawyer attached 20 pages of net.flamage as his
sole exhibit. One example that was spammed all the way from soc.men to
alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now: "Your ass is so blocked up
that you do need some therapeutic relief for your constipation -- a
condition which has backlogged all the shit right back up into your
head, Fred."
The indefatigable Cherry replied:
So, ramming a huge dick up my ass would be a therapeutic measure,
would it? You homos are the chief cause of AIDS in the United
States with your huge dicks being rammed up each other's asses. And
then you homos go around whining that the government isn't doing
enough to find a cure for AIDS. [12/22/95]
Ya gotta love this guy. He sent me mail describing his legal strategy,
concluding: "Can anyone deny that I am indeed the greatest amateur
lawyer since Caryl Chessman?" Of course Chessman -- California's "Red
Light Bandit" rapist -- was executed in 1960, his jailhouse lawyering
failing him in the end.
Cherry's lawsuit was easy to prepare. He grabbed the ACLU's complaint
from their web site, printed it out, added a few grafs about his
net.nazi adversaries, and trotted off to Federal court. When Cherry
filed his suit, which he's moved from Brooklyn to Federal court in
Manhattan, he wrote:
I am primarily a political activist, working for the repeal of laws
criminalizing adult prostitution and the patronizing of adult
prostitutes. Over the past thirty years I have found that, in the
United States, homosexuals are the worst enemies of the civil
rights of women prostitutes and their male clients.
The Cherry v. Reno case, refiled at docket number 96 Civ. 2498, most
likely will be consolidated with the American Reporter case, which is
also moving forward in the U.S. Second Circuit Court of Appeals.
A.R. editor Joe Shea will probably fight it. Shea refused to join our
lawsuit because he can't stand the ACLU and wants to do his own thing,
so he'll probably try to keep Cherry's case from being joined with
his. In fact, he accused the ACLU of putting Cherry up to it.
+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
I would never have suspected the DoJ attorneys of trying to deceive
Federal judges, but now I wonder.
The DoJer I've had the most contact with is Jason Baron, a short,
portly guy who tries to land roundhouse punches during
cross-examination but instead keeps slipping up on technical terms. He
also wrote the Justice Department's reply to our initial complaint. In
that brief, the Civil Division lawyer uncritically cited Marty Rimm's
cyberporn study -- featured last summer on the cover of TIME magazine
-- as an authoritative reference on net.smut:
This article describes material located primarily on USENET
newsgroups, i. at 1865-76, and on adult commercial bulletin boards
(BBS), i. at 1876-1905. Defendants offer this as an initial reference
of the availability and nature of obscene and indecent material from
some on-line sources, such as USENET and BBS. [sic]
Maybe Baron thought nobody would notice. But there's no excuse for not
knowing that the study was deliberately fraudulent: The New York Times
printed an editorial exposing it; Rimm's connections with "family
values" groups have come to light; Donna Hoffman and I run extensive
web sites debunking the study; Carnegie Mellon University claims to be
investigating the ethical misdeeds of their former undergraduate.
Even attorneys who used to work within Baron's division of the Justice
Department complain that Baron deliberately foisted this fraud off on
Federal judges:
I'm embarrassed... They should have mentioned that the "study" came
under heavy critical fire almost immediately upon release. I trust
the opposition will make hay of this omission. In this context, this
"study" is not just another controversial report, but one whose
provenance is well known to be in doubt among the relevant actors.
That much should have been ackowledged in the quoted footnote, at
least along the lines of, "While the methodology of this study has
been challenged, defendants believe it to represent..." etc. [4/7/96]
By citing this study and appending its complete text without informing
the court that it was a hoax, Baron revealed the impoverished ethics
of the Justice Department. Interestingly, the Code of Professional
Responsibility and the Rules of Professional Conduct make it a
disciplinable offense for a lawyer to "knowingly use perjured
testimony or false evidence." Under Title 11, attorneys can be
sanctioned for introducing false evidence.
Perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised by all this. After all, Baron is
the same attorney who confuses EFF with IETF -- not to mention his
additional duties as the DoJ's courtroom-cop. Recall that when I was
asking the mysterious Grey Flannel Suit a question, Baron came over
and interrupted us. Now I've learned that he's threatening to report
me to "higher authorities" if I talk to his witnesses again. (!)
Yeah, Grey Flannel Suit is going to take the stand. He's none other
than the DoJ's cybersexpert witness -- Special Agent Howard A.
Schmidt from the Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
Guess that explains why Baron was so desperate to keep me from talking
with him the other day.
Baron's authoritarian streak showed again during the March 21 hearing,
when I joined some members of the press in paging through the ACLU's
copy of the DoJ's dirty pictures binder. Baron charged over and
snatched it away, snarling: "Not available to the public." Well, the
URLs ended up in my mailbox anyway, so here they are for your
amusement:
http://www.pu55y.com/hotsex/join.html
http://shack.bianca.com/shack/misc/terms.html
http://www.intergate.net/untmi/obbs1.html
http://www.whitman.edu/~burkotwt/pornpics/lady941.jpg
http://www.wizard.com/~gl944vx/gifs/01_21.jpg
http://www.vegaslive.com/sgguests/ginger.html
news:4hrs89k%24oap@what.why.net
http://monkey.hooked.net/monkey/m/grinder/nikkita/graphics/nikki36.jpg
news:313F56FD.3F19@access.mountain.net
news:4hb94m%24sij@asp.erinet.com
http://www.sexvision.com/web2.htm
news:314048f.1657746@news.netwalk.com
The DoJ has full-color printouts of these images, which are sexually
explicit but *not* obscene -- Baron wanted to remind the court that
placing these JPEGs online publicly would not be a criminal act
without the CDA.
For someone who's defending a ban on smutty stuff on the Net, Baron is
surprisingly embarrassed to talk about it. Vanderbilt Professor Donna
Hoffman reports:
[Baron] deposed me for over 7 hours, beginning on a Monday morning
at 9am. The most interesting part of the deposition was when he
brought out several large binders and started going through some of
the material in them and looking increasingly uncomfortable.
Eventually, he spoke and started to apologize saying he might have
to show me some materials and his New England background made him
feel uncomfortable about it.
He honestly was squirming and sweating a bit and then, after a brief
lunch, we resumed and he did eventually show me some materials, but
they were not surprising or of the type that I would have thought
would make him squirm like that.
I did wonder if it was some sort of "act," but he seemed genuinely
embarassed. In hindsight, I wonder if it was because I am a woman and
that was really the part that made the idea of showing me sexually
explicit materials uncomfortable for him.
I guess that Baron is a true "gentleman" who believes that certain
topics like dirty pictures are unmentionable in mixed company.
Avoiding embarrassment is just another reason to censor the stuff!
On April 12, Grey Flannel Suit (aka Special Agent Schmidt) will take
the stand and snarf around the net for dirty pix. He'll be followed by
our last witness, MIT's Albert Vezza, and then BYU/CMU's Dan Olsen.
Stay tuned for more reports.
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
We're back in court on 4/12, possibly 4/15, 4/26 for rebuttal, and 6/3
for closing arguments.
Mentioned in this CDA update:
DoJ's brief citing Marty Rimm's cyberporn study:
Text of complaint from Fred Cherry v. Janet Reno:
Flamewar attached as exhibit to Fred Cherry v. Janet Reno:
Fred Cherry's reasons why he filed his lawsuit:
Relevant excerpt from Fred Cherry's original complaint:
Rimm ethics critique
Censorship at CMU
The American Reporter
Grey Flannel Suit
Previous cases DoJer Jason Baron worked on:
Joe Shea's complaints about ACLU wanting to "stand alone in the limelight":
This report and previous CDA Updates are available at:
To subscribe to the fight-censorship mailing list for future CDA
updates and related net.censorship discussions, send "subscribe" in
the body of a message addressed to:
fight-censorship-request@andrew.cmu.edu
Other relevant web sites:
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 22:52:00
EID:5546 2087b680
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4525
PS> MG>the bible says it did.
PS> MB> Well The Bible says that the "all the fountains of the great deep
PS> MB> broken up, and the windows of heaven wer opened" Genesis 7:11
PS>Okay. We'll go easy here:
PS>A hydrosphere is the total of all water existing on earth in all of its
PS>forms (water vapor, liquid, ice) in all locations (the atmosphere, the
PS>oceans, underground, ice caps).
I understand that.
PS>Now then, if by some accident, all of the water on earth were to be in
PS>liquid form and dumped onto the surface of the earth, you'd still need
PS>two entire more hydrospheres of water to do the job the flood describes.
ok if you say so I have not looked that up.
PS>Even if you got this extra water from somewhere (where?), then it still
PS>has to go back there when the flood's over (the water cycle is a closed
PS>one, see?).
I understand that we us the same water over and over again.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * The Innocent, the Eager, and the Doomed.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 07 Apr 96 22:59:00
EID:cfb6 2087b760
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4527
KDM>MB>DC>Seems like your bible is missing something, like corroborating
KDM>MB>DC>evidence.
KDM>MB>
KDM>MB>Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
KDM>MB>science is theory.
KDM>Like what?
KDM>The Big Bang? Sorry, there's evidence for that.
very shakey evidence.
KDM>Evolution? Evidence for that, too.
Yes some really dotted lines, and a fake or two, but they have just
about got it worked out now.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Ever get the feeling your guardian angel is laughing?
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:02:00
EID:8f4b 2087b840
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4528
FR>mb> Thanks that is the best compliment I have had today.
FR>Yep, you're in the same death cult that Adolf Hitler was. Feels good,
huh?
Well their are always some miss giuded people in anything. Take a look
at some of the scientist in the world,not all of them are real nice.
In any group you can find some bad apples.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * There is no cause for alarm. And the check's in the mail
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:04:00
EID:8f4b 2087b880
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4529
FR>>> but no promises he thinks I have fell in with the devil because I
talk
FR>>> to you all.
FR>FR> That's pretty ignorant, I hope you realize.
FR>mb> That I can agree with.
FR>Welcome to all that the Christanic death cult has to offer its sheep.
Well I will have to disagree with this statment. Not all Christian
leaders are that unfair.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * We've seen the future, Sparky, and we ain't in it.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:06:00
EID:8f4b 2087b8c0
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B452A
FR>FR> Try reading it once. Then get back to us with
FR>FR> evidence that there are deities. Thanks in advance.
FR>mb> I am about a third of the way throught it in a read it in a year
plan.
FR>Don't you think it's rather silly to read a book of mythology going in
alrea
FR>believing it's describing deities that you want to exist? Aren't you
capabl
FR>of understanding that doing so is no different than picking up a Wonder
Woma
FR>Comic book and trying to find a reason to believe that Wonder Woman exists?
not realy the same thing.
FR>Why not read some SCIENCE books, Mark?
Read sevral and am only 6 hour sort of my computer programing degree.
thanks for the tip.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be law
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:08:00
EID:8f4b 2087b900
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B452B
FR>FR> I would guess that Preston isn't making that claim. In any
FR>FR> event the flood mythology's origins are well understood and
FR>FR> the physics of such an event -- were it to have happened --
FR>FR> are also well understood. Scietific method debunk mythology
FR>FR> every time.
FR>mb> Well The Physics are not that well understood to me
FR>mb> I have not looked it all up but as I understande it
FR>mb> physics change quite alot?
FR>No, physics don't change at all. The latent heat produced by precipitation
FR>described in the mythologies would easilly reach a high enough temprature
to
FR>detonate the oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere. There would be geological
FR>evidence that such an event took place, and there would be a good explanatio
FR>on where the water came from and where it all went.
FR>In any event, the myth's origins were taken from the Gilgamesh epic.
The
FR>Chinese would have noticed their own extermination had the legend been
true.
That is realy an intersting statment.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * That which does not kill me is a big fat chicken, nyahh..
* LAKOTA v1.5
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:09:00
EID:9267 2087b920
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B452C
KD> MB> Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
KD> MB> science is theory.
KD>Would you get the REAL definition of theory before you continue posting
KD>on this issue?
Ok.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * ASCII Snake: -*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'~`^`'~*-,._.,-*:>
* LAKOTA v1.5
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:10:00
EID:2154 2087b940
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B452D
DC> DC> DC> MB> Factual. Thats what I belive in.
DC> DC> DC>Then, Mark, do provide the evidence that supports that global
DC> DC> MB> No I have no evidence other than the Bible.
DC> DC>Seems like your bible is missing something, like corroborating
DC> DC>evidence.
DC> MB> Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
DC> MB> science is theory.
DC>What you are talking about are hypothesis, which does not have
DC>anywhere near the import of a theory, let alone a law. You need
DC>a primer on the basic scientific approach to facts and evidence
DC>and prediction.
Ok I will take a look at one.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * (A)bort, (R)etry, (S)mack the friggin thing
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Someone please lend Mr. B
|Date: 07 Apr 96 22:57:00
EID:fe95 2087b720
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4526
PS> PS>He's a geologist. His opinion in this field carries quite a bit more
PS>weight
PS> PS>than yours does.
PS> MB> I see.
PS>Yup. He usually jumps up and down on people like you pretty hard. Me,
I'm
PS>trying to be a nice guy about this.
Thanks, Me I just want to have some good conversation.
PS> PS> MB> Well it would seam that we all came from that area anyway.
PS> PS>Only if "that area" includes Africa.
PS> MB> Ok.
PS>Cradle of humanity and all that, you know. Civilization as we know it
was
PS>established in the Fertile Crescent (Tigris-Euphrates area). Humanity
as
PS>we know it probably came out of Africa.
works for me.
PS> PS>Which is still a pity, since the Bible is still at variance with
reality
PS>on
PS> PS>this point.
PS> MB> Well maybe one day we will find an anser that we can all agree on.
PS>Perhaps, but I rather like my answer. Sure, it doesn't provide comfort
or
PS>inspire faith, but it's the truth as far as we know.
Inspired faith is not allways an easy comfort to have, but it is allways
a good comfort to have. The Lord never promised to make it easy but he
did promise that He would be their for us in the end. I'm not looking
for Faith to take away my proublems I am looking to faith to give me a
final solution.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Highballing the skyways between the stars
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 10 Apr 96 12:19:05
EID:ec6e 208a6260
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 316c89df
AH> Whilst masticating on , Rob Burcham (1:280/76)
AH> wrote to Roger Hunter:
RB> I wonder if Mary Magdelene resembled Claudia Schiffer?
AH> or perhaps Roseanne?
I'm thinking Fran Drescher.
... I'd rather be Herod's pig than Herod's son.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 10 Apr 96 12:19:35
EID:e09e 208a6260
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 316c89e0
AH> wrote to Mark Craig:
MC>> Your mammy is calling you.
DM> And thine (as I pointed out some time back in a message
DM> that appears to have been eaten by Fido) barks for thee. She
DM> is doubtless in heat again (it IS Monday, isn't it?).
AH> Test tubes bark now? Isn't science amazing?
Collecting hydrogen, I see...
... Give a man a beer, he'll drink for a minute; teach a man to brew...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: 19055730964
|Date: 11 Apr 96 00:26:22
EID:2a85 208b0340
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 316c89e1
JB> BTW...did you hear the news? Strom Thurmond is running again. He says
JB> 93 is NOT too old. If he sticks around maybe the fundies will have
JB> objective evidence of evolution...Strom can describe it for them from
JB> having lived long enough to see examples of it.
"Why, dammit! Whin ah wuz yar'n age, we used ta make fun
of Ol' Man Ogg because he didn't walk fully erect. It wuz
hard back then--I wuz lucky jus' ta git opposable thumbs
one Christmas..."
... "And they shall take up refrigerated serpents" --Mk.16:18 (revision)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 11 Apr 96 00:26:24
EID:bbf7 208b0340
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 316c89ec
JB> I don't understand why Judas gets such a bad rap...especially from
JB> christians. If the whole idea was planned out by god in advance of the
JB> nativity, then SOMEONE would have had to take the part played by
JB> Judas. Without the betrayal, in some form, the crucifixion would not
JB> have been as likely to take place...leaving no room for a resurrection.
JB> Judas is only a step below Jesus in importance when it comes to that
JB> event. So why does christianity teach that Judas is in hell?
So Christians will get used to the idea that they can pretty
much wind up there just for God's own jollies.
... fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Alien
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:08:16
EID:7e1a 208a5100
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651cbc59
* Original To : Don Allen, 1:30873/2
* Original From: Bud Jamison, 1:202/746
* Original Area: UFO
* Original Date: Mar 30 11:52
* Forwarded on by J.J. Hitt of 1:106/9788.2
_________
Paleoanthropology Division
Smithsonian Institute
207 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20078
Dear Sir:
Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labeled "211-D,
layer seven, next to the clothesline post. Hominid skull." We have given
this specimen a careful and detailed examination, and regret to inform
you that we disagree with your theory that it represents "conclusive
proof of the presence of Early Man in Charleston County two million
years ago." Rather, it appears that what you have found is the head of a
Barbie doll, of the variety one of our staff, who has small children,
believes to be the "Malibu Barbie". It is evident that you have given a
great deal of thought to the analysis of this specimen, and you may be
quite certain that those of us who are familiar with your prior work in
the field were loathe to come to contradiction with your findings.
However, we do feel that there are a number of physical attributes of
the specimen which might have tipped you off to it's modern origin:
1. The material is molded plastic. Ancient hominid remains are typically
fossilized bone.
2. The cranial capacity of the specimen is approximately 9 cubic
centimeters, well below the threshold of even the earliest identified
proto-hominids.
3. The dentition pattern evident on the "skull" is more consistent with
the common domesticated dog than it is with the "ravenous man-eating
Pliocene clams" you speculate roamed the wetlands during that time. This
latter finding is certainly one of the most intriguing hypotheses you
have submitted in your history with this institution, but the evidence
seems to weigh rather heavily against it. Without going into too much
detail, let us say that:
A. The specimen looks like the head of a Barbie doll
that a dog has chewed on.
B. Clams don't have teeth.
It is with feelings tinged with melancholy that we must deny your
request to have the specimen carbon dated. This is partially due to the
heavy load our lab must bear in it's normal operation, and partly due to
carbon dating's notorious inaccuracy in fossils of recent geologic
record. To the best of our knowledge, no Barbie dolls were produced
prior to 1956 AD, and carbon dating is likely to produce wildly
inaccurate results. Sadly, we must also deny your request that we
approach the National Science Foundation's Phylogeny Department with the
concept of assigning your specimen the scientific name "Australopithecus
spiff-arino." Speaking personally, I, for one, fought tenaciously for
the acceptance of your proposed taxonomy, but was ultimately voted down
because the species name you selected was hyphenated, and didn't really
sound like it might be Latin.
However, we gladly accept your generous donation of this fascinating
specimen to the museum. While it is undoubtedly not a hominid fossil, it
is, nonetheless, yet another riveting example of the great body of work
you seem to accumulate here so effortlessly. You should know that our
Director has reserved a special shelf in his own office for the display
of the specimens you have previously submitted to the Institution, and
the entire staff speculates daily on what you will happen upon next in
your digs at the site you have discovered in your back yard. We eagerly
anticipate your trip to our nation's capital that you proposed in your
last letter, and several of us are pressing the Director to pay for it.
We are particularly interested in hearing you expand on your theories
surrounding the "trans-positating fillifitation of ferrous ions in a
structural matrix" that makes the excellent juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex
femur you recently discovered take on the deceptive appearance of a
rusty 9-mm Sears Craftsman automotive crescent wrench.
Yours in Science,
Harvey Rowe
... Open the pod bay door, Hal.
--- ProBoard v2.12 [Reg]
* Origin: Zooming in San Diego, 619-277-4140 (1:202/746)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: All
|Sub: Dig dis shit!
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:23:46
EID:2fec 208a52e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651ce5b2
REPLY: 3:711/933 3166f1a3
Anthony Grigor-Scott to Mark Craig:
MC>> Nero committed suicide by stabbing himself in the throat
MC>> (wounded head of the beast).
AG> Tommy rot! You're way off-course in your guesswork and
AG> placing yourself in the category of those you condemn.
AG> You are not a prophet and no prophet ever breathed such an
AG> interpretation.
MC>> We are now approaching the end of the millennium (age of
MC>> the Gentiles).
AG> Make up your mind whether you are talking of the end of the
AG> second Millenia AD, or the thousand years' peace when Christ
AG> and the sainst dwell on earth.
I love this!
The racist nutballs can't agree on which of their numbers are
True Racist Nutballs and who are merely False Racist Nutball
Scum.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE O
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:42:19
EID:f044 208a5540
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651d0db3
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 145caf60
JH>> I think the subject header is inaccurate.
JH>> It's looks like they lost their U not the O.
RB> LOL! You kill me, Hitt.
The world is bad enough with Boy Scouts, we have no need for
Boy Scots.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:44:19
EID:e4f0 208a5580
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651d2ee8
REPLY: 1:116/19 0373C4B0
On Apr 08 05:07 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> So it is harder for a homeless person to GET a home, even if
AS> they have the cash, then a person who already has an apartment.
AS> It costs more, and consequently, fewer of them make it, and the
AS> spiral starts anew. Or at least that's what HE said. You and
AS> Marilyn HAVE been homeless. Is that the real deal, or not?
Marilyn delivered an excelent sermon on how to make the transition
in a 1950's economy.
A point I should have included in my prior message, but
unfortunately left to inference is that assistance (in the form
of helping a person get a job other than spot labor and setting
them up in a dwelling) isn't an absolute necessity but there
is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in making the transition
any more difficult than it already is. I view such aide as an
investment, a rather good investment.
Yes, making the transition from a cheap hotel, boarding house or
room-by-the-week to a "real" appartment is not without difficulties,
but they are far less than getting and keeping that job with a
weekly paycheck.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:11:21
EID:e4f0 208a5960
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651d7af4
REPLY: 1:116/19 0373A066
On Apr 08 06:03 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS>> Although guerilla movements, with simple weapons, can overthrow
AS>> even goverments these days...
PS>> The government has to be substantially distracted elsewhere (as
PS>> in the case of seriously fighting a war or two with someone
PS>> else or having leadership so incompetent that it's a
PS>> distraction itself) for any revolution from within to work.
AS> But it's not hard to seet up a distraction for a goverment.
AS> Goverment by its very nature tries to spread itself pretty thin,
AS> and even when a goverment can have the backing of a major power
AS> (South Vietnam comes to mind) it cannot stop the corruption
AS> within. But you're right, such a distraction IS needed. Luckily,
AS> for revolutionaries, international relations make such
AS> "distractions" very common.
You're both missing a very important factor.
For a revolution to be successful IT HAS TO HAVE popular support.
A few guys with guns running loose do not take over a country.
It's only when they are fed, armed, hidden and cared-for by
the populace at large do they have any chance at success.
That's one of the things that US foriegn policy has never grasped
about Cuba: Castro didn't take over Cuba, the Cubans took over
Cuba. And despite some very real human rights abuses, the vast
majority of Cubans still see it that way.
The revolutionaries may or may not live up to their promises once
in power, but the deciding factor is wether the current government
is hated or not. If people like or are even indifferent to the
government in power, they won't take the risks involved in
supporting a revolution. It's only when the current government is
hated by the at large population that a revolution has any
chance of success.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Fertility rituals!
|Date: 10 Apr 96 16:36:44
EID:2b46 208a8480
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65204cfd
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 31006399
On Apr 07 00:23 96, Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoNet wrote:
FR> Well, tonight's the night that we hide reproductive
FR> organs around the place for our offspring to search
FR> for in the morning.
Since when is an egg an "organ"?
Or do you hide chocolate dildos around the house?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 10 Apr 96 16:46:24
EID:aa7b 208a85c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6520704b
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3169712d
On Apr 08 12:04 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
DM>> Johnson Smith Company
DM>> 4514 19th Street Court East
JH>> I'm suprised they give a street address.
JH>> I have to wonder if they have a showroom.
DM> What WOULD you use with the "severed human hand" jello
DM> mold to get a display that wouldn't melt or draw flies?
DM> (Though the flies would be a pretty realistic touch.)
Don't they still sell Venus Fly Traps?
Hmmm... I wonder if there would be a market for a special catalog
of gag items for Mormons? Call it the Joseph Smith Catalog. You
could have things like X-Ray Specs that allow you to translate
ancient languages, crotchless magic underware, whiskey flasks that
look like a copy of the Book of Mormon, a blow-up Kate Smith doll
(can also be used as a swimming pool liner), Mark-of-Cain blackface
make-up kits...
[Lunch for the first is still on.]
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 11 Apr 96 02:33:30
EID:a011 208b1420
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6525ca68
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 315ffa3d
On Mar 30 22:49 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
JH>> I'm not aware that the New Testiment addresses the issue,
JH>> but I think it's a sweeping generalization to say that
JH>> Jesus hated animals. But he clearly had a thing against
JH>> dogs... and fig trees.
SA> And pigs, though Jews consider pigs unclean, anyway.
SA> (Though I still think Jesus could have just banished the
SA> daemons, and didn't need to transfer them to a herd of
SA> swine, thereafter driving the pigs over a cliff if he was
SA> oh-so-magical.)
Ah yes... I clearly remember the first time I read the Bible.
I was about ten. I was reading Matthew. I was enjoying it.
Then I came to the pig-part.
From that day on I've never really cared much for that Jesus guy.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Selena Kerr
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 16:52:52
EID:f33c 208a8680
PID: Telegard 2.99.g4 [ml]
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31683813
MSGID: 1:252/107 316be764
TID: GE 1.11+
`07-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Selena Kerr <=-`03`03
LB> Jaw dropping...
LB> Don? Christian?! Loser?!!
LB> ROTFL! Someday, you may even figure out what you did to "deserve"
LB> this.
LB> I'd explain, but I can't get too words out together without giggling
LB> madly...
I have been stabbed in the back and insulted by christians so many times..
i can't count that high...(that is not to imply that i lack intelligence
and i can't count).. i have given up on that faith completely.. and i am
sick of them thinking that they are the best and only religion.. get off
your high horse. I don't care if i deserve it. If i give them back a fraction
of the hell that they gave me I will be happy. Wrath.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:43:29
EID:dd37 208a5d60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 316c6b06
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3169f2b3
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric and The were killing time yakking about Jim Staal:
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
TR> Why? You are certainly capable of such a tactless and idiotic
TR> maneuver. On top of it all, you are enough of a shitlip to actually
do
TR> it.
He didn't, though, Jack. As a lawyer, I know you are aware that people
are
not to be found guilty of what they *could* do.
Could Fred ridicule Jim and Mark for his father's death? Of course -- anyone
could -- even the ever-patient Al is CAPABLE of it. But Fred didn't. And
I have seen other instances of him refraining, consciously, from engaging
in
behaviour that is over the top, regarding Jim himself. Even Jim is currently
aware of that.
What you see above is a dead issue, that has been dealt with by the parties
in question. Leave it lie.
"Mom and dad say I should make my life an example of the principles
I believe in. But every time I do, they tell me to stop it."
[Calvin & Hobbes]
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ A long dispute means both parties are wrong.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 10 Apr 96 06:01:18
EID:9d6a 208a3020
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 6ee41a5a
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3169bb31
On (09 Apr 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Judith Bandsma...
LB> It's doesn't matter. Think about it -- if you stand in a room
LB> full of girl scouts demanding that you're one, and they all
LB> say, "no, no -- THESE are the requirements", you have only a
LB> few choices: you can meet the requirements, you can INSIST on
LB> using the title even though it is inaccurate, or you can quit
LB> using the title.
But, in this case, is it the Girls Scouts who decide what Girl
Scouts are? I don't think so. If one hundred percent of the
Christians in the world have it wrong, they would be shouting to
the rooftops that they have it right. You KNOW that is so. We see
them crowing about "what scripture REALLY means" every day right
here in HS.
Consider something else: is scripture REALLY what a religious
experience is about? or is that just a record of the ancients'
journey toward truth? Can anybody assess the value or honesty of
somebody else's religious experience? or are we all forced to
accept at face value that FOR THEM, what they claim is true,
regardless of whether it meets our criteria or not. While I can
confidently say that Mike isn't a Christian, because he doesn't
meet the minimum criteria, I also have to just as confidently say
that in Mike's eyes, he is a Christian, and my assessment of him
is immaterial to anybody but me. I will stand by my assessment,
while at the same time recognizing the fact that it is, after all,
just my opinion and that I am not the final arbiter of what is and
is not fact. All those other Christians must also offer you that
same degree of uncertainty regarding their assessment of what a
Christian is. If they do not, they are being less than honest,
both with themselves and with you.
LB> In this situation, I am incapable of meeting the
LB> requirements. They require beliefs in things which I cannot
LB> believe, and which I am not willing to pretend to believe.
You are incapable of meeting THEIR requirements. We can't say for
sure what THE requirements actually are. All we have to go by is
an imperfect translation of what somebody else thought the
requirements were. This is an area where there is plenty of room
for disagreement among well-meaning, sincere people.
LB> The second option is dishonest, and I still flatter myself
LB> enough to be unwilling to be dishonest once it's apparent
LB> that I am doing so.
I think you've been completely candid. That's more than I can say
about most of the people who come dancing through here, claiming
to be Christians. To me, the real dishonesty is in not realizing
that one might be wrong.
LB> There isn't any choice but to accept the third option,
LB> because no one is going to change the requirements to suit
LB> me, and it would be equally unfair for me to ask them to
LB> pretend that they want to, or should, just for my sake.
They don't make the rules. They aren't a high enough authority.
You don't have to march to their drummer, despite their insistence
to the contrary.
LB> However much I think that they SHOULD rethink those
LB> requirements, I would be guilty of the arrogance Michael
LB> insists I have, were I to think that the majority is under
LB> any obligation to the minority in this matter -- they can
LB> only be persuaded, not commanded.
So, now we've established that the arrogance is theirs. No
surprise there.
JB> How far have the 'churches' come from the teachings of the
JB> book they say is their guide? How far have you?
LB> To be honest, Judith, I have been the classic example of what
LB> is called here a "Salad Bar Christian". It hasn't bothered me
LB> a bit to refrain from putting on my plate MANY of the
LB> teachings of the bible. They would say I have veered much
LB> from those teachings, and they would not be wrong.
I think you're being unnecessarily hard on yourself. Let's get
this one right: you have veered from the biblical teachings IN THE
EYES OF THOSE WHO SEE THEM DIFFERENTLY. Nothing more. Who's to say
which of you have "gotten it right"?
LB> Those portions I have tried to retain can be found in *many*
LB> religions and are also lived out in full measure by those who
LB> claim no religious faith at all. That isn't strong enough a
LB> peg to hang the word "christian" on, is it?
Yes, it is. Those who interpret things differently can be -- and
probably are -- just as far off base as they say you are. If there
be any REAL faith in the religious experience, it is the faith one
must have that they are on the "right track." And, that faith is
by definition permeated with an unshakable feeling of "I'll never
know for sure that I am on the right track; I can only walk in the
lights that have been given to me."
JB> From MY point of view, (which, admittedly, is worth only the
JB> pixels on your screen) you are closer to that ideal than any
JB> dogmatic 'church' deciding the lives of its congregation.
LB> Maybe...but that ideal is found in the hearts and actions of
LB> so many who are without the church that it's obvious that the
LB> ideal is HUMAN in origin, and not RELIGIOUS in origin.
So? Do we question from whence our enjoyment of sex comes? or are
we just thankful that we've found that joy? What you say above is
just another form of "I'm letting the ideologues decide the value
of my experience." Do you REALLY want to give them that kind of
power?
JB> By their fruits ye shall know them. Remember that when
JB> dealing with the nuts and flakes.
LB> Indeed, I will -- and take note that I am finding far more
LB> fruits on the outside of the stained glass window.
I'm concerned about you. Feel free to "talk" to me privately via
NetMail.
... Murphy's Rule of Combat: Incoming fire has the right of way.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 09 Apr 96 22:12:52
EID:a2cf 2089b180
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 cc160fa4
REPLY: 1:116/19 035DF9E6
On (07 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to All...
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Al Schroeder <=-
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
MH> Once again, Al ... please forward.
AS> I'm going to post it to "ALL" instead, if you don't mind. I
AS> said those other two would be the only things I would send
AS> directly to her to circumvent her twit filter, but you've
AS> doubtless not read that yet. so I will compromise this way.
AS> Marilyn can read this, or not, as she wishes. BTW, received
AS> an email from Dave Oosterman today, and all I can say is
AS> congratulations and good luck!
Al, don't bother posting any more of his messages either to me
or to all. He is too damned set in his ways to get the point,
anyway. He fails to see that whatever conclusion he's come to
regarding scripture has absolutely nothing to do with the issue.
The issue is that he absolutely can't allow somebody else to
see things differently without him concluding they are wrong
and treating them as though they aren't too bright for thinking
like they do.
He's a total waste of your time and mine. Leave me out of the
loop entirely from now on, please.
I don't suffer fools gladly, and he's a fool.
... Gross Ignorance: 144 times worse than ordinary ignorance.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 09 Apr 96 22:16:12
EID:06dc 2089b200
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 311f433f
REPLY: 1:116/19 031BEF92
On (07 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to J.J. Hitt...
JH> About a year ago my employer instituted a dress code. It was
JH> announced as "our new, relaxed dress code". The problem was,
JH> that prior to the announcement, we DID NOT HAVE a dress code.
JH> An almost textbook example of how to sound like you are
JH> giving people something while you actually take something
JH> from them.
AS> That's why the "Dilbert" comic strip is so funny...it shafts
AS> that sort of hypocrisy in the marketplace over and over.
AS> Anyone who has ever worked for a big company knows all too
AS> well the truth of many of "Dilbert's" objections.
We could all tell horror stories about the corporate psyche. I
work in marketing, but in the intelligence/analysis end of the
process. We attempt to get all the dope we can on our competitors
in order to develop strategy and long-range planning.
One of the analysts asked me to get some info on a client from one
of the field analysts. I called the right one, and he said that
the info in question had been given to him on pain of the death of
his first-born if he revealed it. I pointed out to him that he and
I both worked for the same organization and that it reasonably
followed that if it was okay in the client's eyes for him to have
the info, it was also okay for me to have it. I assured him that
my use of the info would be circumspect (i.e., the data would be
aggregated so nobody would be able to tell what portion of the
bottom-line number belonged to this client, and what portion
belonged to other clients who fell in the same category).
Nope. Couldn't have it. A promise was a promise. He said he could
give me a range, but he couldn't give me the number I wanted. I
told him that all we were doing was verifying some data we had in
a data base, beacause some of the numbers seemed suspicious.
The field analyst then said, "Oh! in that case, why not give me
the number YOU'VE got, and I'll tell you whether it's too high or
too low, and by how much!"
... When dueling monsters, do not become one yourself. - F. Neitzsche
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose One
|Date: 10 Apr 96 18:11:47
EID:c12d 208a9160
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 4db6d9a6
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 16315452
On (Sun 31 Ma) Rick Mcfarlane wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> And that's patently unconstitutional, so long as they have the
MB> support of the Government.
RM> So why did the government give them support, then?
Because Congress is a bunch of jerks who will pander to the
religious segment of our society in order to garner favor on
election day. That is why we have groups like the Freedom
From Religion Foundation, American Civil Liberties Union,
American Atheists, etc. It keeps their pandering little asses'
feet to the fire regarding the Wall of Separation.
MB> People are free to attack such issues from whichever end they
MB> choose. This particular AHA board member chose to attack the issue
MB> from the BSA end. That was her call.
RM> So, the public body made a mistake in making funds available.
RM> And the BSA made a mistake in accepting them. And the result
RM> may be that a single individual (this AHA board member) winds
RM> up dictating program content to the BSA, against the intent
RM> of its founder, and the wishes of it's members. That might
RM> make sense to you, and stranger things have happened in your
RM> courts , but it seems a little extreme to me.
RM> Especially when there is another party to this deal that
RM> seems equally culpable, and more answerable to the public
RM> (the school districts involved). And especially when there is
RM> another remedy available - stop the funding.
Stopping the funding would require the Congress' respect for the
First Amendment. Fat chance! We use whatever tools are at our
disposal. Oftimes the tools that are used are because of past
bitter experience.
... Creationist: "Why yes. Rome _was_ built in a day."
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 10 Apr 96 07:10:32
EID:656a 208a3940
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7522d66f
REPLY: 1:215/130 00073d25
On (09 Apr 96) Elliott Finesse wrote to Marilyn Burge...
EF> In a message dated 04-06-96 Marilyn Burge wrote to Sue Armstrong:
EF> > I don't think you have to be an economist to see the point he
EF> > was probably trying to make. I don't recall reading the essay,
EF> > but, I can pretty much guess where he was coming from. Look at
EF> > it this way: you own a business. A hundred percent of the
EF> > people are employed. You need a couple of employees. What are
EF> > you going to have to do to get them? Offer somebody more money
EF> > than they are presently making! There can be no other way, as
EF> > there is nobody "in the market" for a job. So you offer them
EF> > more than they are already making, whether they are truly worth
EF> > more or not.
EF> Except the determination of the "worth" of labor is the same, in
EF> practice, as the determination of the worth of goods and services -
EF> supply and
EF> demand. Certainly business has no problem charging whatever the
EF> traffic will bear without regard to inflation or the "true" worth of
EF> their product or service.
EF> You have no choice. Now, explain to me why this
EF> > wouldn't create upward pressure on wages, which would in turn
EF> > create upward pressure on the price of goods. Isn't that the
EF> > definition of "inflation?"
EF> But I doubt he was as concerned about the inflationary pressure of a
EF> rising stock market, for instance. Why would zero unemployment be
EF> considered bad and inflationary and a rising stock market considered
EF> good (and non-inflationary)?
I'm not saying that others factors can't also be inflationary,
I was just pointing out to Sue how a 100 percent employment
rate WOULD be inflationary, and why it also wouldn't necessarily
be a good thing for the country in which it existed.
... HELL (n): Backing up a 600 meg drive with 360K floppies.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ISMS [1]
|Date: 09 Apr 96 22:29:55
EID:32e3 2089b3a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 92025aa1
REPLY: 1:116/19 04099C56
On (06 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> for the day -- one remaining in school, the other spending the day
MB> at Mom and Dad's workplace. She opted to leave both of them in
MB> school that day. But the gross unfairness of that corporate
MB> decision got me to thinking a bit deeper, and I came up with the
MB> above argument.
AS> This is one where I agree with you TOTALLY on; and quite
AS> frankly, it creeps into the religious sphere quite badly, and
AS> it is one of the few things (besides politics and Genesis)
AS> that I have a serious disagreement with my preacher on,
AS> although we're good friends otherwise. There are many
AS> preachers...and mine tends that way...who preach a Gospel of
AS> Dale Carnegie. Who would rather people have good self-esteem
AS> than be saved. They have bought the myth that with a good
AS> self-image you can do anything.
AS> That's not been my experience in life. Oh, those whose
AS> talents excel know it and are confident in it. But I think
AS> many of these sales types are doing a mantra, self-
AS> hypnotizing themselves with their positive self-image stuff.
AS> And once they hit a crisis that got in the way of thier
AS> self-image, their self-image shatters, leaving it worse than
AS> it was before. I think the best way to get a good self-image
AS> is to help others and see their gratitude and their esteem of
AS> you reflected in their eyes. That cannot be taken away.
I see the real problem quite differently. We all are good at
some things, not-so-good at some things, and horrible at what's
left. If we spend a bunch of time consciously telling ourselves
how good we are, we are ignoring the things that we aren't so
good at. Doing that leaves us at a disadvantage when we have to
compete in the marketplace with people who are willing and able
to say "I don't do X very well, so I'd better take some classes
in it."
It also leaves us at a disadvantage when we are approached to
do something, because we are unable to assess whether we can
truly do a good job, because we've programmed ourselves to
believe we can do ANYTHING, overlooking the fact that there
are many things that we are barely adequate at, and actually
a certain set of things that, quite framkly we can't do at
all.
AS> Interestingly for a religious person, this is almost the
AS> exact OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught. "The greatest are those
AS> who serve most".."the first shall be last",,,there are
AS> instructions to sit at the foot of the table, so the master
AS> of the house might ask you to move up, rather than sit at the
AS> place of honor and be embarassed when the master of the house
AS> asks you to move to a lesser place. That the person who says,
AS> "be merciful unto me, a sinner" is greater than the one who
AS> goes, "Thank you, Lord, for not making me as other men." Yet
AS> there are many preachers who write self-help books and make
AS> the circuit, selling a positive self-image as something
AS> commanded by the Bible.
AS> They are reading a different Bible than mine.
No, they are reading different portions of the same bible. In
order for us to love others, we must first learn to love ourselves.
But, having said that, it must be a love based in reality, not one
predicated on the sort of ga-ga crap that we call "puppy love."
Look at the words on the Lord's Prayer. It clearly says "forgive
us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US."
Does that not speak to the need for us to see the value to ourselves
in our ability to forgive others? Why do something that is mainly
a value to oneself, yet is decidedly hard to do for others, if we
are not being commanded to do it so that we may receive god's
love and grace? What difference does it make whether we receive
god's love and grace, if we are unworthy of it anyway.
The verses you cited speak of humility and perhaps even self-
effacement, but they do not speak of a poor opinion of oneself.
AS> And I suspect the secular self-image seminars are riding for
AS> a similar fall. It's masturbatory, feeding on YOUR self
AS> image, YOUR goals. It's me, me, me...it's not as bad as it
AS> was in the eighties, but it is still pretty bad.
AS> Now, too much of anything can be bad. Perhaps women do need a
AS> more positive self-image, and such would keep their mates
AS> from getting away with beating them, as we have heard so much
AS> lately in this echo, on the news, whatever. But I wonder if
AS> the better idea would be to scale down the males' egoes...or
AS> rather, maybe we should be concerned about helping others'
AS> egoes, and be less concerned about our own.
I don't think that the battered wife syndrome is so much a
question of poor self-image as it is a question of women being
programmed differently from men from the time they are born. Women
are reared that it is marriage first, career next (if at all). Men
are reared that it is definitely career first. As a result men are
more at ease with the notion of not being married at all; women
feel like they are somehow a failure or inadequate if they don't
marry.
Given that, they have a strong drive to keep the relationship
together, regardless of how toxic it is, because being alone (and
presumptively unwanted) is an even worse fate. If they dump the
guy, they (and others) will ask why they couldn't keep the guy
happy, and they will be scared stiff they won't find another man
to "fulfill" their destiny.
I'm sure that mindset is less prevalent now than it was in my
generation, but you can bet your bippy it is still there, no
matter how much more subtle.
... Why do Christians worship a god that violated a virgin's civil rights?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Unemployment [1]
|Date: 10 Apr 96 18:15:32
EID:105b 208a91e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 847b3285
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 316a514f
On (08 Apr 96) Sue Armstrong wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SA> A lone voice in the wilderness, Marilyn mournfully howled out
SA> "Unemployment [1]"
SA> I gleaned of it I found exceedingly disgusting. It had
SA> something to do with the "fact" that no economy can stand
SA> having everyone employed, and that inflation would go through
SA> the roof if that happened, but I really couldn't make heads
SA> nor tails of his reasoning.
MB> I don't think you have to be an economist to see the point he
MB> was probably trying to make. I don't recall reading the
MB> essay, but, I can pretty much guess where he was coming from.
MB> Look at it this way: you own a business. A hundred percent of
MB> the people are employed. You need a couple of employees. What
MB> are you going to have to do to get them? Offer somebody more
MB> money than they are presently making! There can be no other
MB> way, as there is nobody "in the market" for a job. So you
MB> offer them more than they are already making, whether they
MB> are truly worth more or not. You have no choice. Now, explain
MB> to me why this wouldn't create upward pressure on wages,
MB> which would in turn create upward pressure on the price of
MB> goods. Isn't that the definition of "inflation?"
SA> Well, the problem there is, there are always people entering
SA> the job market.
Then, you don't have 100 percent employment, by definition.
SA> Also, some might not like the job they're doing at the
SA> moment, and might prefer to switch jobs. (I know a programmer
SA> who's getting so sick of the bullshit where he works that
SA> he's entertained the idea of filling out a McDonald's
SA> application.)
Then, you don't have 100 percent employment. That's why economists
usually regard 2-3 percent unemployment as full employment: it
allows for those who voluntarily quit their jobs because they
don't want to work, are pissed off at their boss, etc.
SA> As for inflation, I see it as rather illusory. Wages go up;
SA> prices go up. Prices go up, wages go up, all hand-in-hand.
SA> Whether you're working in one dollar bills or 1,000 dollar
SA> bills doesn't seem to make much difference. Here, a Coke is
SA> about $1.00. In Greece, it was 100 drachmas.
That basically has nothing to do with whether or not 100 percent
employment is inflationary. THAT is all I was attempting to
explain to you in laymen's terms.
... ÈÊÊÊʼ Hey Rocky, watch me pull a tagline outta my hat!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jerry Eakle
|To: All
|Sub: religions
|Date: 10 Apr 96 01:12:24
EID:65d8 208a0980
MSGID: 1:213/742.0 316b6d68
Ok I am here to stir up some holy smoke. I am a reformed atheist. I was
when I was younger a christian until Junior High School or Middle School
depending on where your at. I then became a atheist I have no idea why
other than I believe in Evolution. And still don't believe in immaculate
conception. If you can tell me how a woman can get pregnant from a nonhuman
being a spirit. Or how a spirit can take the dirt from the earth and create
a human being. How come when we are born why don't the men come from the
earth and women come from his rib bone? These may sound stupid but I think
it was stuff like that that caused me to become an atheist. I also am interested
in why God promotes incest. When he made Adam and Eve they had Cain And
Abel Cain went to the land of Nod and got a wife. Who created the people
of Nod? If it was incest why did it not give the names of the people of
Nod in the Genealogy in the Bible?
I am also anti Catholic and Mormon and Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah's
Witnesses. All four of them push religion on you. And the Mormons use the
Book of Mormon besides the Bible and that's considered a cult. I get into
arguments with Catholics because they feel there's is the only religion
there is. I consider myself Christian and am not affiliated to any church
like Methodist, Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran. Christian is my religion.
I am an avid watcher of Trinity Broadcasting Network and they have this
one couple the husband is Jeff Fenholt and he used to be a rock musician
with Black Sabbath and his wife Reeni Fenholt is a reformed Catholic. I
like watching their show. Ok enough for now.
May God Bless You All!!!!!
Praise The Lord!!!!!!
Jesus Is My Savior!!!!
GOD Bless
Jerry Eakle
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Library COM -* Reno, NV USA *- (702) 785-4191 (1:213/742)
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:21:00
EID:d432 20866aa0
April 8 Monday
WHO HOLDS THE ROPE?
Read: Hebrews 13:1-6
I will never leave you
nor forsake you.
-Hebrews 13:5
Some years ago I read an account that went something like this:
A group of scientists and botanists were exploring remote regions
of the Alps in search of new species of flowers. One day they
noticed through binoculars a flower of such rarity and beauty that
its value to science was incalculable. But it lay deep in a ravine
with cliffs on both sides. To get the flower someone had to be
lowered over the cliff on a rope.
A curious young boy was watching nearby, and the scientists told
him they would pay him well if he would agree to be lowered over the
cliff to retrieve the flower below.
The boy took one long look down the steep, dizzy depths and said,
"I'll be back in a minute." A short time later he returned, followed
by a gray-haired man. Approaching the botanist, the boy said, "I'll
go over that cliff and get that flower for you if this man holds the
rope. He's my dad."
Oh, that God might give us the faith of that boy! Have you
learned to trust the Lord like that, my friend? If anyone else
holds the rope, I dare not go. But since Jesus is holding me
fast, I can never doubt. Are you willing to say, "If my Father
holds the rope, I shall not fear"?
-M.R. De Haan
He holds my hand, this wonderful Savior,
And He is mine;
So why should I fear when I know He's so near,
And I know that His hand holds mine? -Smith
FEAR FADES WHEN WE TRUST OUR FATHER
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
---
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 09 Apr 96 00:26:00
EID:d432 20890340
April 11 Thursday
ABOVE THE CIRCUMSTANCES
Read: Habakkuk 3:17-19
Though the fig tree may not
blossom,...yet I will
rejoice in the Lord.
-Habakkuk 3:17-18
I remember a story about a woman who was very discouraged because
of the many problems in her life. As she was walking down the
street, she met a fellow believer who asked, "How are you doing
today?"
With a sour look and a bitter shrug she replied, "Oh, not too bad
- under the circumstances."
The other person quickly countered, "Well, get above the
circumstances! That's where Jesus is."
The prophet Habakkuk was of the same mind. He refused to let
circumstances dampen his faith or crush his hope. He looked to the
future not with pessimistic fears of what else could go wrong, but
with faith in God no matter what would happen. Even if he lost all
his possessions, Habakkuk proclaimed that he would continue to trust
the Lord to meet his needs (vv.17-19).
Our eyes are to be focused on the Lord, not on our circumstances.
We are to live above the shadows of fear and bask in the sunlight of
faith. Even though we, like Habakkuk, may have a long list of
troubles, faith's answer to disappointment must always be: "Yet I
will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation"
(v.18). That type of attitude will enable us to live above the
circumstances instead of under them.
-Henry G. Bosch
Although my trees are fruitless,
No grapes are on the vine,
Yet Christ is all my fullness,
And all His sweetness mine. -Anon
AS YOU GO ALONG LIFE'S WEARY ROAD,
LET JESUS LIFT YOUR HEAVY LOAD.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
* 1st 2.00 #1855 * God's baud rate is ..
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/10
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|From: Mark staal
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:03:49
EID:f018 20886060
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb26b
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Mark Staal <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/26.14 ee8b95a7
JS> On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote to Jim Staal...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Fredric Rice <=-
JS> Let's just get over it once, Fred, admit you are/were wrong and
JS> perhaps Mark can learn from your example. (admitting he was wrong)
MS> ....I thought I did by posting an apology,
JS> I must have missed that, Mark. Just let it ride (as I already
JS> have...even though Fred won't let the you=me thing die, let's just
JS> apologize and try, try, try to let it ride *no apologies to Randy
JS> Bachmann* )
....I don't know....If he can't even comprehend the two of us being
different people, How is he going to be able to understand the apology?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:06:11
EID:f018 208860c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb26c
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Mark Staal <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/26.14 f669aa96
JS> On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote to Jim Staal...
ms> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
ms> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
ms> George and the rice brothers.
MS> ....I thought I did by posting an apology, But, where in the above
MS> statement did I say that they said anything about dads' death? I
MS> merely stated that they were "CRUEL" and I still stick to that
MS> statement...AND until Ferdie can get over his little obsession I'll
MS> retract my apology seeing it was siad under a misunderstanding of
MS> Ferdies' part.
JS> Ahh...no need to bring it up in the first place...just let it die and
JS> maybe he'll come around...
..........Yeah, right.....Just like George is my friend....George is
good......WHEN DONKEYS FLY!!!!!!!!!
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:09:06
EID:f018 20886120
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb26d
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Mark Staal <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/26.14 bd872c07
JS> On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote to Lynda Bustilloz...
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Fredric Rice <=-
js> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
js> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
ks> George and the rice brothers.
MS> ...Lynda, where in that text did Jim say that The rice brothers
MS> even said anything concerning His fathers' death...he just
MS> stated the truth by saying the rice brothers were cruel...
JS> HELLO!? Where in that text (initials changed by Fred, of course) did
JS> it say that _I_ said anything. That is your quote, dude. Never let
JS> anyone forget that...
.....Don't blow a 'roid,Bro, I'm just trying to make Ferdie see just
how silly he is by changing my IDs and that if he's gonna accuse me of
doing something he better make sure the statement is in my name and not
yours...
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: JIM STAAL LIES AGAIN
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:54:14
EID:e360 208a5ec0
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb272
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Mark Staal <=-
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Jim Staal <=-
MS> ....I thought I did by posting an apology, But, where in the above
MS> statement did I say that they said anything about dads' death? I
JB> By INCLUDING them in the statement about george's behavior about your
JB> father's death you included them in the cruelty of that action. If you
JB> had wanted to just point out that you think they pick on you, the
JB> HONEST thing to do would have been to end the statement about george
JB> with a period and pick up with a new sentence stating something like
JB> 'the Rice brothers can be cruel, too, but at least they didn't say
JB> anything like this.'
JB> Look at your own damned dishonesty.
{spry little thing, aren't you} Don't get your hair net in an uproar,
Judith, I did apologize for the statement and then merely jokingly
stated that I retracted it....Only because the RIce boy still denies the
exisistence of two Staals who are of a different entity....So, lighten
up a bit and relax.....I still only believe that George was the only one
that ridiculed my fathers death and not the Rice Bros'.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 10 Apr 96 12:04:33
EID:96e8 208a6080
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb273
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Mark Staal <=-
LB> @MSGID: 1:109/601.0 316852e5
LB> Lynda and Mark were killing time yakking about jim staal lies again:
js> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
js> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
ks> George and the rice brothers.
lb> What have the Rice bros. said to you about this? The only
lb> negative post I've seen regarding your father's death has
lb> come from George.
MS> ...Lynda, where in that text did Jim say that The rice brothers
LB> Mark, Jim never said anything about it -- you did. Now, while Fred
LB> may change the initials above (what is "ks"? Kram Staal?) you aren't
I have no idea what "ks" is...I think he just had a lazy
middle finger and didn't want to drop down to the "m"..
LB> seriously trying to tell me you have *forgotten* what you wrote so
LB> recently, are you?
....No, I have not forgotten nor retract it
MS> even said anything concerning His fathers' death...he just
MS> stated the truth by saying the rice brothers were cruel...
LB> I see. Then I assume that you once again think you have evidence for
LB> this alleged "cruelty", whether it applies to your father or not.
......Nope, just kidding.....
LB> Well? Where is it?
....Don't have it....
LB> I did, trust me. I got no answer to the above question. I suspected
LB> then, and suspect now, that he misunderstood my expression of sympathy
LB> regarding his father's death, as well as my distaste for George R.
LB> choosing to use said death as an opportunity to "score a hit" as
LB> indication that I now think there should now be some sort of "period
of
LB> mourning" in which they are treated with special kindness on ANY topic.
LB> While you and Dave have continued to go after them on other issues
LB> (and I would expect nothing different there), I know, Staal knows, and
LB> you know that neither of you have used his father's death in a "cruel"
LB> manner...his silence in regard to answering my questions speaks volumes
LB> on this score.
LB> I AM sorry that his family is dealing with the loss of a loved one.
LB> But it is as annoying to see it used to garner special sympathy as it
LB> is to see it used as an opportunity to hurt someone.
LB> The above stands as written -- for the record.
MS> ...ps. next time you want an apology from me, make sure that I
MS> said the accused statement and not Jimbo....
LB> YOU are. You wrote it, and I think it's a real shame that you engage
LB> in classic Staaling tactics by making an apology, retracting it because
LB> of an overlapped post (Fred wrote his before he got yours), and then
......Listen, until Fredie can come to reality and admit that
Jim does not speak for me, I 'll keep kidding around with this
until he does..
LB> pretend that you never said anything at all, and shovel it off on
LB> someone else. I won't bother suggesting that another apology is in
LB> order -- if you are prone to retracting them the next time you
LB> something happens that gives you cause to have a temper tantrum, it's
LB> plain that you don't understand what apologies are FOR, or why they
...Atleast I was man enough to apologize and say I was
wrong...More than what I can say for Ferdie....
LB> matter. Immature? Frankly, my 6 year old has a more mature grasp of
LB> inter-relationships than you do.
....All Fred has to do is stop changing my IDs in front
of my posts and talk directly to me and not Jim...
P.S. and for the record....I do not retract my apology to Fred
and Dave, but would like to treated as though I exist differently to
Jim.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Re: mark staal
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:19:26
EID:b894 20886260
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb26e
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Mark Staal <=-
SA> @MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 3015e946
>>KDM> Jim's grandfather is dead;
>>
> SA> Thereby implying that he's not YOUR father, as well?
> No, implying he was Jim and My Father not _Grandfather_.
SA> I was making a play on your poor choice of wording.
SA> You should have said "our" (you AND Jim) versus "Jim's".
.....Aaaahh, misunderstanding on my part I guess...
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 10 Apr 96 13:18:48
EID:572f 208a6a40
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 3129ac93
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 316a043e
On (07 Apr 96) Sue Alexander wrote to Jim Staal...
SA> Obvious, like Lon S. Mabon. Yeah, right...
JS> Ok, so one crummy alias wasn't that obvious. I had my reasons. All
JS> of which were legitimate...:)
SA> Legitimate in your mind, perhaps. To other people, it was an
SA> attempt to hide the truth that worked for awhile.
Hmmm...hide what truth, Sue? Mr. Mabon spoke the truth as all his
statements were based, founded, substantiated with scripure.
SA? At best, it was
SA> the stunt of a crazy man (may I at least presume that you are male?),
SA> but I am of the opinion that you just have a tendency to act like an
SA> asshole.
:) - And I, Sue, have heard that opinions are _like_ assholes:
everybody has one and they all ('cept mine, of course) stink.
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:55:00
EID:2b1b 208aaee0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B4392
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KDM> Evolution? Evidence for that, too.
MH>
MH> There's corroborating evidence for much of the Bible too, Kev. The
MH> supernatural elements cannot be proved, but the basic historical
MH> reliability of the Bible is well-established.
KDM> Well, depends on how you want to look at it, I guess.
No, there's no interpretation needed. The Bible recounts a great deal
of history, and where archaeology has touched on that history, it has
largely corroborated it. Where it hasn't clearly corroborated it, it
has offered possible corroboration with some controversy attached.
In no case dealing with the historical books of the Bible -- the latter
part of Genesis through II Kings, and the first five books of the New
Testament -- has any archaeological find (that I know of) contradicted
the Bible.
... You can write a good country song if you have an ex to grind.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: apology
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:11:00
EID:66dc 208aa960
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B438E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
AS> this. This has nothing to do with Holy Smoke, but with a crisis within
AS> the Episcopal Church and her diocese. And things may not be as they
AS> appear from her note. Your post---and of course, there was no way for
AS> you to know this--was exactly the WRONG thing to say at this time. I
AS> can't say any more in confidence, but I AM asking you to trust me.
AS> I want you to apologize to Lynda. And leave it be.
MH> As I trust Al to know what he's talking about, though, I will take
MH> him at his word that I have unintentionally wronged you. For that, I
MH> apologize.
LB> I do not see how you have "unintentionally wronged" me. What you had
LB> to say was not based on what you saw in that post of mine (other than
LB> that you gained the freedom to admit that you do not think I am
LB> Christian once I declared it first) -- it was based on months of
LB> interplay between us.
First off, I have not said that you are not a Christian. I have
reiterated three times now that I think you ARE a Christian, just a
less traditional Christian than some. You may not like what I say, but
please do not misrepresent it.
Secondly, I unintentionally wronged you by saying what Al tells me was
exactly the wrong thing to say, in light of something he knew and I did
not. You seem convinced that I have some sort of seething hatred toward
you, which is far from the truth; however, knowing that you think that,
I would not have engaged the discussion at all had I known something
was going on that made it more personal and less academic.
LB> Don't sell your honesty for a mess of pottage, Michael. It was a bad
LB> bargain to make a false apology a condition for forwarding your
LB> messages to Marilyn.
The apology was sincere, whether you think so or not. And it was not
made because Al forwarded my post; I would have offered it even had he
not.
... To laugh well is to live well.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:15:00
EID:1bdc 208aa9e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B438F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
KDM> Of course. The fun Christian double standard.
MH> It would only be a double standard if God and humans were the same
MH> kind of being. As it is, it's no more a double standard than having
MH> different rules for parents and children.
LB> I realize that you are not a parent, but let me clue you into
LB> something -- parents and children ARE the same kind of being.
LB> A child who consistently sees their parents living by standards that
LB> are at odds with the standards set for those children, quickly learn
to
LB> stop respecting those standards...and the parents.
I was thinking, though, of the fact that adults have more experience,
knowledge and skill than children. A parent will forbid the
six-year-old to drive the car, even though the adult drives it. God
tells us not to judge others, but he judges us all. That is not
hypocrisy or a double standard; it is because God knows the motives,
failings and weaknesses of each of us, and can judge us much more
fairly than we would judge each other.
... Very funny Scotty. Now beam up my clothes.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Dogs
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:30:00
EID:bb51 208aabc0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B4393
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>
MH> Yes. The bottom line is, everyone needs Christ. Proud people,
MH>though, refuse to admit they need anything. To accept Christ, one
MH>must first understand why one needs Him.
KDM> Why? This is a personal thing, but I'm not going to befriend or
KDM> follow someone who demands I put him first. That's ,my choice.
MH> Jesus often used shocking challenges or statements to force people
MH>to make a choice. In first refusing to help the Canaanite woman, he
MH>caused her to demonstrate great faith. In another instance, he
MH>demanded that a man in love with wealth sell everything he had and
MH>give it to the poor.
KDM> Why? Why should I allow someone else to decide what is best for me,
KDM> or for those I love?
If that someone is the God who created you and has nothing but good
intentions for you, as well as far greater knowledge and power than you
have, it would seem a wise decision.
It is, though, your choice.
... German word for brassiere: Stoppemfrumfloppin.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: evil
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:19:00
EID:6564 208aaa60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B4390
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Just as I said ... it is logically possible for a free being to
MH> never commit evil. It is not, however, logically possible for a
MH> free being to never be ABLE to commit evil; that would not be
MH> freedom.
SA> I have a question on this. If there is a free being that does
SA> never commit evil (which you say is logically possible), would this
SA> being still be a "sinner" that would need to be "saved" before being
SA> allowed in to heaven? Why or why not?
I don't think such a person would be a sinner. It is logically possible
to never sin. As a practical matter, though, it seems to be highly
unlikely.
Jesus suggests that it is possible that some will not need his
salvation; possible, but not actual. He says "I have come to save not
the righteous, but sinners." Yet we're also warned that if we try to
keep the law and stumble at just one point, we're as guilty as if we'd
broken all of it -- God's standard is perfection.
So yes, if someone could live an absolutely perfect, sinless life, they
would gain admission to heaven on their own merits. I know of only one
person who has done this -- and he died on a cross to bear the sins of
all the rest of us, since he had none of his own to contend with.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: labels 1/2
|Date: 10 Apr 96 20:54:00
EID:2f06 208aa6c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B438C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> You are a Christian in a more philosophical sense. I think you
MH> sincerely try to live out Christ's teachings, although -- as you know
LB> And of what benefit, according to your beliefs, is there in one who
is
LB> "philosophically" a Christian? Carry on with your honesty, and tell
LB> me if you think me damned?
No, I do not think you damned. Why on earth would I? And why on earth
would you think I would? Being a Christian in the philosophical sense
is the more important of the two! While I don't see any reason to not
take the miraculous events of the gospels as fact, I also don't see any
reason to insist that such a view is necessary for salvation.
I know too many Christians who believe the "right" facts, but their
lives don't reflect what they claim they believe. I know Christians
such as you who question the facts, but believe wholeheartedly the
underlying spiritual truths, and whose lives bear out that belief. Why
should I think the former is saved and not the latter?
LB> I expect there will be those here who will crow that they KNEW I
LB> wasn't a True Christian, and be very relieved not to have to deal with
LB> me on their "team". There will also be those who read this with sorrow
LB> (Al, I am deeply sorry for that). There will be some who claim it as
LB> a "kill" and perhaps do a little victory dance, and I hope there will
LB> be a few who realize that while this is no occasion for rejoicing, it
LB> does not mean that I have changed in regards to who I am -- just in
LB> what I call myself. And of course there will be many who simply don't
LB> care.
MH> I find I stand in some confusion over how to respond. I feel no joy
MH> in a "kill," as there is no victory won here. Anyone who thinks there
MH> is is misguided.
LB> Actually, I wasn't thinking any from the christian camp *WOULD*
LB> consider it a kill,
Then who would, and "do a little victory dance?"
LB> people in, not turn them out. I'm a bit bemused that you felt that
LB> particular line pertained to you...
I didn't feel it pertained to me in particular. I did think you were
talking about HS Xians in general.
... Cain wasn't Abel, but Eve was Adamant.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: possibilities
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:32:00
EID:87ac 208aac00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B4394
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KDM> I don't dismiss them for that reason alone. I also dismiss
MH> KDM> them because they are, AFAIK, impossible, and because the
MH> KDM> people writing them were biased, extremely so.
MH>
MH> Why are they impossible? That's simply a philosophical
MH>presupposition. If God exists, miracles are quite possible.
KDM> Note the AFAIK. Miracles may well be possible, but they conflict,
KDM> violently, with my world view.
MH>but whether their bias makes their accounts untrue. Obviously, if
MH>they believed Jesus was the Christ, they had some reason for
MH>believing that. Could that reason not be what they recorded?
KDM> Certainly. That's entirely possible.
Then why not relax your anti-supernatural world view long enough to
give the issue some serious examination, admitting that it is entirely
possible? What could you have to lose?
... On Dr. McCoy's tombstone: "I'm dead, Jim."
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Science 101
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:23:00
EID:5932 208aaae0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B4391
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
> MB> Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
> MB> science is theory.
EF> You still haven't gotten it straight by now? Any and all scientific
EF> theories have enormous amounts of corroborating evidence behind them
-
EF> or they wouldn't be scientific theories.
Your eloquent, well-defended apologia for scientific method was
misaimed, as I am not the "MB" quoted above -- indeed, I am not an
"MB" at all.
Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.
... Cain wasn't Abel, but Eve was Adamant.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: sucking up
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:06:00
EID:29e7 208aa8c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B438D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Jim Staal's accusation that Lynda is "sucking up to the heathens,"
MH> while exaggerated, is not without a basis in truth. She does seem to
MH> feel that she is smarter than those of us who are more traditional in
MH> our beliefs, and that she has a corresponding right to ridicule those
MH> she differs with.
LB> Define "sucking up". And make sure the description you use doesn't
LB> define what you've been asking me to do with the christians -- in
LB> particularly YOU.
I don't think you are sucking up -- that's why I said Jim's claim is
exaggerated. Sucking up is saying what you think someone else wants to
hear, for the sake of winning their approval, and I know you are not
doing that.
LB> As far as the "right" to ridicule -- I believe that in this echo that
LB> is up to Styx. I DO have the right, just as you felt you had the
LB> "right" to call Karen Smith a "sick fuck". A term I have refrained
LB> from applying to you out loud, but have often thought.
Karen Smith? I think you mean Becke Jones. And I used the term with
Becke because Becke used it first, and I wanted to throw it back in her
face and show her how needlessly abusive it is.
So you think I am a sick fuck? With all the compassion of a slug?
Do you think Jesus thinks of me that way?
Continue with your honesty, Lynda ... do you think me damned?
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: WEST
|Date: 10 Apr 96 21:52:00
EID:f982 208aae80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 895B438B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Michael Hardy <=-
AS> Could be. But was the West, now thoroughly glamorized, where every
AS> man could wear a pistol, so excessively polite?
MH> Are you referring to the Mae West? "Is that a pistol in your pocket,
or
MH> ... ?"
AS> I'm a pistol and my nine year old is a son of a gun.
This was the post where I made the Mae West joke, the one you called me
"stupid" for. What do you see in here that makes you think we were
talking about Mae West the life jacket?
... Pull the other one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Bullshit Science and Faith
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:43:21
EID:e197 208a5560
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 316bea61
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD6
Jerry Gilbreath said "Science vs. Faith" to Martin Goldberg,
adding:
JG> The decay of the earth's magnetic field indicates an upper limit of
JG> about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr. Thomas G. Barnes,
JG> Professor Emeritus of Physics at the University of Texas. You may
JG> want to read his book, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic
JG> Field.
What the fuck is this Barnes belch, a macro? Time you
learned, Pustule, that among scientists and on this echo
generally, the coveted Institute of Creation Research
imprimatur is regarded as a solid gold guarantee of pure
bullshit.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 11 Apr 96 09:56:31
EID:cdf8 208b4f00
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16d12699
REPLY: 1:123/319 5708f802
Hello Mark!
Mark Craig wrote in a message to Matthew Travers:
MT> Virtually everyone he met was not interested in helping Jews.
MC> Maybe it is because they crucified Jesus,
I always had the impression the Romans did that, and the contemporary
Italianos seem to have been forgiven. So why should people of Jesu own
faith carry the bucket? He never made a secret of being a Jew himself.
MC> and were responsible for the death of 40 million Russians.
Pray, tell more about it - I am all ears. I have never heard of these
fierce Lions of Juda in action. The news blackout must be worse than
I ever believed.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 11 Apr 96 10:36:43
EID:5c16 208b5480
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16d12692
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 65102dd8
Hello J.J.!
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Preston Simpson:
JJH> As to the Jews being from Isreal, the claim usual goes that
JJH> they were pretenders who returned from Babylonian
JJH> Captivity, or were the Khazars (I have to hit an
JJH> encylopedea to find out just who in the hell the Khazars
JJH> really were) or some other outside group.
Well, then Jesus Christ was probably also of good sound Khazar
stock, and his genealogy as phony as that of the rest of his
contemporaries. They must have been real sneaky those Khazars,
able to fool even God - he did after all cooperate with that
well known Khazar Judas Maccabaeus, a very long time after
Babylonia had lost interest in the real Jews.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 11 Apr 96 10:53:03
EID:cdf8 208b56a0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16d12693
REPLY: 1:123/319 57099e32
Hello Mark!
Mark Craig wrote in a message to Preston Simpson:
PS> Fourth point: You're still a fucking moron. Feel free to
PS> reply when you attain sentience, you misguided jackass.
MC> Gosh! I didn't mean to make you angry -- hahahahaha.
Of course not.... no Christian would do that. EVER!
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 11 Apr 96 11:09:50
EID:19f0 208b5920
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16d1269a
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 145caf66
Hello Rob!
Rob Burcham wrote in a message to Michael Hardy:
RB> I have difficulty understanding how a theist finds evolution
RB> hard to swallow, but this view of an eternal god goes down
RB> in one smooth gulp.
RB> If the universe is roughly 15 billion years old, what was
RB> God doing 100 billion years ago? A trillion? Infinity is a
RB> long, long time.
Don't be so dense, Bob. God was hard at work in all the parallel
universes, putting in weekly creations all over the place.
Now you can perhaps see why the 7th day is a day of rest?
One has to gather one's thoughts and come up with a new idea,
before tackling the next task. That's REAL creationism!
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 11 Apr 96 11:25:18
EID:78ef 208b5b20
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16d12697
Hello Judith!
Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to Al Schroeder:
JB> I don't understand why Judas gets such a bad
JB> rap...especially from christians. If the whole idea was
JB> planned out by god in advance of the nativity, then SOMEONE
JB> would have had to take the part played by Judas. Without
JB> the betrayal, in some form, the crucifixion would not have
JB> been as likely to take place...leaving no room for a
JB> resurrection.
JB> Judas is only a step below Jesus in importance when it comes
JB> to that event. So why does christianity teach that Judas is
JB> in hell?
It is probably all a misunderstanding. Presently Judas may be
sitting together with his chum Jesus in Paradise - both of them
avoiding Paul - and both of them feeling very disappointed about
the way all their efforts evolved over the millennia.
... Greetings from Mimi
PS: In this case I feel the msg heading is misleading indeed.
Only if we interpret GAY in it's oldfashioned sense, as
JOYFULL, does this discussion make sense.
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE O
|Date: 11 Apr 96 11:52:30
EID:c3aa 208b5e80
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16d12698
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 169ac6c1
Hello Rick!
Rick Mcfarlane wrote in a message to Larry Bevard:
LB> Both Boy and Girl Scouts were
LB> founded upon strong Christian value systems, something that the Boy
LB> Scouts have held on to, even in the face of loosing a lot of support,
RM> Baden Powell was Christian, no doubt. But the organization,
RM> while definitely theist, is also definitely _not_
RM> Christian.
RM> The relevant part of the BSA charter and bylaws, which
RM> Marilyn quoted in the message that started this thread
RM> states that Scouting will be made available to all boys,
RM> regardless of their religion.
Everybody seem to have forgotten how the scout movement really
started - right here in South Africa during the 7 month siege of
Mafeking in 1899/1900. Colonel Baden-Powell got the bright idea
to occupy small boys with non-combatant tasks (to keep them out
of mischief and relieve the boredom). This proved such a success
(the kids out of way and actually doing something useful) that the
Colonel later on never gave up the idea of promoting children to
organize and express themselves in socially beneficial ways.
Being a man of his time and place religion of course became part
of the the movement.
In later years scout movements have become established all over
the world, many of them with no religious relation to YMCA and
YMCA, but all of them basically going back to the roots: that
children can express themselves in socially beneficial ways, and
will enjoy doing so, if shown how.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Paul Churchill
|Sub: [1/2] Tithe
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:58:07
EID:3ae9 20896740
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2c7
A lone voice in the wilderness, Paul mournfully howled out "[1/2] Tithe"
JG> rent for that church. It pays to keep it clean. It pays to make it look
JG> beautiful. How much nicer is it to be in a church with a choir dressed
JG> in blue robes instead of ragged shirts and blue jeans. And these people
JG> pay for this priviledge.
PC>
PC> Hmm, I suppose you are right, it is better to look at people
PC> in nice robes, than in ragged shirts. Of Course there are thousands
of
PC> children in Africa who cannot tell the difference cause they are
PC> blind due to a lack of about a bucks worth of vitamin A.
PC> Let me give you another example. One of the poorest countries
PC> in the world (forget which, somewhere in Africa) has one of the
PC> biggest Catherdrals in the world. The country is starving, yet the
PC> leader poured a good hunk of the national budget into building this
PC> giant catherderal for the poor to stair at.
And don't forget that Good Christian Tom Monahan, who built a
huge cathedral in El Salvadore, for the poor folks dying under
right-wing death squads. They might as well be "saved" in a nice
church before they're gunned down for being suspected Communist
revolutionaries, eh?
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... Hello in there, Cliff - What color is the sky in your world?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 09 Apr 96 09:11:00
EID:ba49 20894960
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2bf
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "A FAIR & JUST
GOD"
NB> I tend to agree with the axiom that an armed society is a
MB> polite society.
AS> Could be. But was the West, now thoroughly glamorized, where every
AS> man could wear a pistol, so excessively polite?
Well, I've noticed in Detroit, there's a sort of politeness born
out of fear. Whenever I go there, I'm acutely aware that anyone I
might deem to ask directions of might be packing. Then I realise
that they don't know if _I'M_ packing or not. It's a very weird,
uneasy feeling. I'm more used to casual politeness as a matter of
course; but in Detroit, I'm sure not to approach anyone too closely
or quickly, and exclaim "Excuse me, Sir (or Ma'am)" at a larger
distance than usual, and make sure both my hands are visible. The
only problem is, being a bit hard of hearing, it's difficult to hear
what someone is saying from several feet away on a traffic-filled
street. Fortunately, I've never had a bad experience (yet), though
I do get worried if someone approaches me.
I suppose the awareness that the other guy might have a gun might
enforce a sort of politeness, but I don't really see what good it is
to be polite just because you're scared.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... The platypus was created right after Marijuana.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 09 Apr 96 09:21:01
EID:ba49 20894aa0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2c0
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "A FAIR & JUST
GOD"
AS> Here's the break down:
AS> Sheol: used 33 times (although one occurrence may be the
AS> word for the grave) and is the only word used in
AS> the old testament for the place of the dead. It
AS> seems to have been, at least to early Israel, a
AS> shadowy land of forgetfulness, very similar to
AS> the Hades of Greek mythology.
AS> Gehenna: used 12 times (and a few of these are
AS> duplicates of the same references in more than one
AS> gospel), was a small valley, pit or ravine
AS> just outside Jerusalem where trash and rubbish
AS> was burned.
AS> Hades: used 10 times, the Greek abode of the dead.
AS> Tarturus: used once in the NT, this was also from Greek
AS> mythology and refereed to a special part of
AS> hades set aside for the punishment of the
AS> wicked.
AS> So, of all those references to hell, only one refers
AS> specifically to a place of torment, Gehenna is used as a
AS> place of destruction, and the majority refer just to the
AS> abode of the dead.
AS> of Hell. Only one that the word, at least, implies a place of eternal
AS> torment. Oh, I know some of the descriptions describe such, and I'm
AS> not denying that...but then, others imply a "death", i.e., a final
AS> extinguishing of existence in any mode. Which is what you are
AS> expecting after death anyway, right?
Actually, Tartarus was a place of eternal punishment, too, although
not the sort that necessarily involved simply sitting around in
fire. That was the place that Sisyphus had to roll that rock up the
hill over and over, and someone else had to endlessly turn a wheel,
etc. In a way, that's a much nastier view of punishment than the
Christian Hell - what does pain mean to a spirit? Hard work can be
gotten used to as well, but the tasks given those being punished are
infinitely BORING and repetitive. It'd be like being condemned to
being a fry guy for eternity at some hellish McDonald's with no days
off.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... Nothing is wrong with you that reincarnation can't cure.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Be "kind" to Creationists like Hardly
|Date: 09 Apr 96 14:12:08
EID:8a21 20897180
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2c8
A lone voice in the wilderness, Fredric mournfully howled out "Be "kind"
to Creationists like Hardly"
FR> It didn't surprise me any.
FR> "Well, a kind is kind of like a dog and a wolf but more like a coyotee
FR> is kind of like a kind between itself and a fox only then you also
FR> include cats in with the dogs to get a kind."
You missed the nitwit on Evolution last year (I think it was Tony
Ermie) who tried to claim that all plants belonged to one "kind".
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... "I am impatient with stupidity." - Klaatu
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Gerry Wagoner
|Sub: evidence...
|Date: 09 Apr 96 18:33:02
EID:85d9 20899420
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2c1
A lone voice in the wilderness, Gerry mournfully howled out "evidence..."
GW> Dinosaur Bob, (who has made numerous valuable fossil discoveries --
GW> some of which are in the Smithsonian..) told me in early 1991 that all
GW> of the fossil discoveries extant to date share one common denominator:
GW> Their heads are tilted way back and up. So? This is the classic
GW> posture of a drowning victim. Ahem.
Wrong. It's caused by the muscles and tendons constricting in
death. Given a chance, the body curls backwards upon itself in
rigor mortis. No flood needed.
Also, you'd have to explain how mid-Carboniferous tetrapods managed
to remain inside the rotted trunks of _Sigilaria_ (an extinct form
of lycopod) trees. A catacalysmic flood would have washed the
animals, or their skeletons, out of the trunks. Unless you want to
claim that lycopods, microsaurs, temnospondyls, and extinct
primitive reptiles such as _Hylonomus_ were around AFTER the flood
and contemporaneous with humans - for which there is absolutely no
evidence. No human (or mammalian for that matter) fossils are found
to be associated in any way with these fossils, nor are mammalian
fossils to be anywhere found in Carboniferous strata.
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... Support Evolution-400 billion amphibians can't be wrong.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 10 Apr 96 23:07:01
EID:75eb 208ab8e0
MSGID: 1:246/15 3164A796
EF> > Adolf hitler wasnt a Christian, he may have called himself one but
EF> he
EF> > as far from Christianity as you seem to be. Israel was told to
EF> inhabit
EF> > land, it was there's to possess.
EF>
EF> Not Christian but a theist just like you. Tell us the effective
EF> difference
I am not an athiest guy, Im a Christian. Born again, Sanctified, Spirit
filled believer in Christ. (Praise God!)
EF> between Hitler and Moses. What did Hitler do that made him worse than
EF> Moses?
hitler was a lunitic, he thrived on his sicknesses(sin), Moses was a Prophet
of God. Why compare what is evil(hitler) to what is good(God's Prophet)
?
EF>
EF> We want your justification for god ordering the slaughter of innocent
EF>
EF> children and women captives. You keep ducking this point. I don't
EF> blame
EF> you, but all the same it makes you appear less than honest.
I wrote what I wrote. Its already Justified.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Steve Wallis
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 10 Apr 96 23:12:02
EID:137c 208ab980
MSGID: 1:246/15 3164A8C9
RB> SW> No, I worship The Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord God Almighty and
RB> the
RB> SW> Holy Spirit only.
RB>
RB> Keep on rackin' up those brownie points, Steve. Your ticket
RB> to heaven is almost paid for.
The ticket to heaven is a free gift Rob. All one has to do is accept Jesus
Christ as their personal Saviour. Salvation cant be bought. It cant be achieved
by good works-if it could have, then Christ wouldnt have died for us for
it would have been a waste of time. But, seeing that we needed a Saviour,
Christ volentered to save this world by dying for us. The gift of salvation
is waiting for you, but if you wont accept it, you wont recieve it. Godbless
Steve
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Harvest Moon Eclipse
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:41:03
EID:e854 20895d20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2c2
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "Harvest Moon
Eclipse"
DC> birth. Therefore Autumn 1996 would be the beginning of the (7th)
DC> "Sabbath" MILLENIUM, "the Lord's day".
JH> Wheee! It's hasn't even been two years since the last
JH> end-of-the-world.
JH> Why is it these guys always pick fall for the end of the world?
Who wants to stick around for winter? :P
--Wolfie
"In the higher animals the ability and inclination to do damage
is, unfortunately, in direct proportion to the degree of their
intelligence." -- Konrad Lorenz, "King Solomon's Ring"
... All the world's a stage, and I have stage fright.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Pascal's Wager: 5:7 on the God with the tallest hair.
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:27:04
EID:fec7 20896360
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2c4
A lone voice in the wilderness, Marty mournfully howled out "Pascal's Wager:
5:7 on the God with the tallest hair."
ML> Buddah, Odin, Allah and Gitchee Manitou are laughing
ML> uproariously at your choice.
MH> Have you ever read Pascal's "Pensees?"
ML> Yep. But I keep falling asleep halfway through. Damned
ML> narcolepsy.
MH> The wager is usually taken out
MH> of context. Pascal first took the time to meticulously argue that
MH> the various other gods are unqualified for the job, that only the
MH> Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea of God is philosophically workable.
ML> Whoa there, buckaroo. Put down that spattergun, you paint with
ML> a bit broad-a-brush. Islamic? Pascal? Pshaw!
Problem is, someone could equally declare Mikey's god
"philosophically unworkable". A god that can't make up his mind and
seems to suffer from a personality disorder is no god at all. I
hereby declare all gods but Raven to be "philosophically unworkable"
for similar reasons - Raven actually DID something for people, and
he has a sense of humour.
MH> Then
MH> he took some time to explore the deity of Christ, thus elminating the
MH> Judeo-Islamic ideas.
ML> As he was fairly anti-semitic, he was twitting the Jews. The
ML> Muslims? Allah forfend.
Meanwhile, if someone twitted HIS god summarily, like I have just
done, he'd be screaming "bias".
MH> Then, and only then, he offers his wager. When it is offered in
MH> isolation, as it is here, it opens the door for the question of "How
MH> do you know which God it is that exists?" But when offered in its
MH> original context, that question has already been dealt with and
MH> settled.
ML> And HE'S still putting all his eggs in one ecclesiastical
ML> basket. Gitchee Manitou is most displeased.
Pascal might have been a good mathematician - but what I've noticed
about mathematicians is, they tend to make lousy philosophers.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... It's 1999: Do you know where your quantum physicist is?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: SEED
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:42:05
EID:9489 20896540
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2c5
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "SEED"
JG> Actually it was quite "inconvenient". But there is plenty of time to
JG> re express my ideas on god and truth and love.
DC> Not according to the latest.... Your time is up in August '96.
DC> After all, it's the Second Millenium and your godling is going
DC> to do his grand re-entrance.
DC> Now, get your bags packed and sell all that you own for one cent
DC> on the dollar. Better yet, give it all away and feel real good
DC> about yourself.
Dibs on his computer!
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... Pollytheism: the belief that god is a parrot.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Tennessee Commandment
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:45:06
EID:4f08 208965a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 316be2c6
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "Tennessee Commandment"
DC> Such a shame that he hasn't read the Constitution... In fact, I
NS> He's Canadian, he probably doesn't have to read the Constitution in
NS> Civics Class the way we did.
DC> Thing is, Sue Armstrong has at least heard of it, and, most likely
DC> read it or of it. In return, I have enquired about their system
We studied a little of it, very breifly, as a sort of option in a
mandatory Canadian History class in high school. J.J. Hitt was
kindly enough to send me the entire thing some time ago for my
reference - I have it archived in a subdirectory, along with the
Soviet Constitution I posted.
DC> of gvt. (Sounds a lot like a remake of the Who's, "Same as the
DC> Old Boss"!)
You've got the idea. :)
DC> ... If it has tits or tires, you're gonna have problems!
NS> Oh, this is an interesting viewpoint . . .
DC> All I can say that I'd probably would win if we compared my lens
DC> size even to Sue's!
You're on! Though, I've set aside some cash (just waiting for it to
come in) for some contact lenses, assuming that my prescription
isn't too bad to preclude such devices. Either way, I've got to
replace these old things (my eyesight got worse, and my lenses are
all scratched up) and contacts are much cheaper than spec lenses
($60 plus tax, as compared to $95 plus tax. I can swing the $60
with little pain, but $95 is out of the question.)
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... Scotsmen do it with Amazing Grace.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 10 Apr 96 12:07:00
EID:2a65 208a60e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E39
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-07-96 09:13, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> me any more cookies in my batter!)
SA> Hehehe. Well, I still like the Haagen-Dasz chocolate chip cookie
SA> dough stuff - with actual cookie dough in it. Mmm!
Never had there's, but I've had a few other brands. The only
one I didn't like was an oatmeal cookie version...
DC> Points more and more to a problem with yeast...
SA> Raw eggs .. yeast .. don't see the connection ..
I meant the dough... Baking generally goes hand and hand with
yeast and eggs. Have you ever tried an eggless bread?
SA> with ketchup. I once ordered French toast at a hotel restaurant
DC> I used to eat all my eggs that way. My Dad learned it from
DC> when he was in the Army. Powdered eggs, months straight, makes
DC> Helman's is better. Made with real eggs!
SA> I tried Helman's before; didn't really like it. In fact, I find
SA> all normal mayonnaise kind of bleah.
Differnet tastes, I'm sure, as I find Miracle Whip to be far to
lemony. Besides, I usd to make sanwiches consisting o only
bread and mayonaise!
... GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN! -- You push and I'll steer...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:58:00
EID:9601 208a5f40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E38
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 21:31, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
MH> (As you might infer, neither your opinion nor Marilyn's matters beans
MH> to me.)
Of course they don't, Mikey, as you have planted the beans in your
ears, which are full of soil. I'm sure that they will attempt to
grow good roots, only to be stimied by the concrete that they
encounter as they attempt to extend their root system.
... "You need to have belief to know god is an objective reality." MH
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:03:00
EID:9c8e 208a5860
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 06:06, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Yes. There was an enjoyable issue where the Watcher was put on
AS> trial by his other Watchers for violating his oath too many times.
AS> Leave us face it, without the Watcher, the FF would have never even
AS> begun to fight Galactus.
Have you read the story where an alien takes up a spot on the
moon where the Watcher is an proceeds to set up a weapon to
destroy a planet? He get's very miffed when the Watcher
interfers...
AS> have enjoyed seeing the pre-Crisis, world moving Superman meet
AS> Galactus, and having his butt kicked from here to Krypton...
Works for me!
... Your new credit limit is $1. Have a nice day.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:09:00
EID:2e60 20895920
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 13:16, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> AS> I'm not sure what kind of ailments assail you...
DC>I'm aflicted with cronic apundicitis.
KW> Yes, you do like to have people in stitches.
Suture, it's scarey. But, there's nothing like needling
someone.
Sew, what's up with you? Gonna keep the thread moving or tie
it in a knot? I'd hate to think it was all set in plaster and
I'm now immobile to continue...
... Most Dangerous Woman in America: Tanya Rodham Bobbitt
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:10:00
EID:11a1 208a5940
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 09:00, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> probably inspired by distorted tales of real animals like rhinoceros.
DC> That, though, is far different. You have a creature(s) that can
DC> be found and studied. It's only the second or third hand
DC> interpretation of the data, collected by possibly an amazed
DC> individual that gets skewed in the process.
AS> Funny. That's sort of how I interpret other peoples' myths...
Seems like you have begun to understand my subtlety.
AS> And as a response to that, Operation Blue Book investigated and
AS> found that there really was nothing to the vast majority of the
DC> You almost got it there... Problem is, if something does not
DC> exist, what sort of evidence would you like me to provide that
DC> it doesn't?
AS> It's not up to you to prove it, which I freely concede. I have
You are getting closer...
AS> universe which I feel point to a theistic conclusion (the anthropic
AS> coincidences) but I don't pretend they are the conclusive proof I
Closer still...
AS> yet. OTOH, there are some negatives that I DO regard as fact. For
AS> instance, the no faster-than-light thing has been shown to be a
Even better, as there is no evidence that supports FTL.
DC> As you note above, a lack of evidence doesn't mean it isn't so.
DC> However, the lack of evidence tends to point to the fact that
AS> Which might explain the pluralities of gods in history...rumors of
AS> a real religious experience, distorted by word of mouth and time.
That presuposes yet another case of a claim that still lacks
evindence. The again, you knew that when you inserted that
last line or two there, didn't you.
... Our Dog who *.ART in Fido, says thou must use judicial quoting
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:17:00
EID:2514 208a5a20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 06:00, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> So was the area in and around Palestine. Hence, the DSS.
AS> Stored in a cave. Most documents did not survive as well. The
AS> Egyptian cliimate seemed even more conducive to same.
A bit drier, with less temperature swings... Yet, the DSS were
important enough, being written in that area, to have taken
the extraordinary effort to save them.
DC> What about the disciples Ralph and Norton? They weren't mentioned
AS> One of these days, Dan, one of these DAYS...POW! ZOOM! To the
AS> It was watching Ralph and his wife bicker that Paul developed the
AS> idea it is better "not to marry". Given what they did, who can blame
Too bad that he didn't see behind them and know how much they
really loved each other. Would have saved a lot of grief and
agravation from following his mis-interpretted rules.
AS> sometimes "Judas". Judas described his own death? I see that Lazarus
AS> and JEsus weren't the ONLY ones to pull off a Resurrection around
DC> You may be right. If you look into the backgrounds of the disciples,
AS> Sure. Judas wasn't a Galilean. OTOH, he was trusted enough to be the
AS> group's treasurer.
Judas was the only non-Galilean in the group, and the only Judean.
... "Man has the one true religion. Several of them!" -- Twain
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:20:00
EID:2727 20895a80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 17:51, Robert Jackson got back to J.j. Hitt
RJ> ... "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
Need a translation here... Never took Latin.
Howerver, I do think it means: "If you got them by the balls,
their hearts and minds will follow".
... Atheism is no more a religion than abstinence is a form of drinking.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Buchanan
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:23:00
EID:00d6 208a5ae0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-07-96 09:08, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> be my daughters first "real" race, as she's only participated
DC> in the Bay.
SA> Ah, good luck to her!
Sehe did well! Nt only did she crew great, she didn't feed the
fishies! She did take a long nap, but there was no wind to
contend with. She did almost get the boat going to Canada on
2 gallons of gas...
DC> similar. Fatale seemed to sound right to me, but I wasn't really
SA> I had a hard time remembering what it was, too; but when I heard
SA> it, it was "Oh, that was so OBVIOUS!" :)
It may be because Boris' name just worked in better. Plus, he
was the starring bad-guy.
DC> tapes, though. What's nice is that each one is a complete story!
SA> episode, and most stations I remember it running on rarely show
SA> them in order.
That makes the realy stories very hard to follow. The fillers,
like Fractured Fairy Tales, can be told in any order, but the
R&B can't be done that way!
... Sue Armstrong's cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Choose love or hate
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:26:00
EID:1aeb 208a5b40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 06:05, Jesse Jones got back to All
JJ> How ironic to receive this hateful diatribe on this Easter
JJ> Day, when Christians celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus the Christ!
Your late with _your_ diatribe, Jesse. All us heathens were worried
that something may have happened to you.
As nothing did, enyoy planting your corpse... Errr... crops.
... "Better than a poke in the eye with sharp stick!" J. Lackey
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORMS
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:29:00
EID:161b 208a5ba0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 06:03, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> I found this Brother Branham web page, who is Grigor-Scott's
AS> personal "prophet". There are obviously faked pictures (for all that
Sounds like you don't buy into his evidence...
AS> account I read. There was some funny stuff...the guy's a Kentucky
AS> preacher and there was something there about how God created
AS> squirrels for him to shoot when he was out squirrel hunting and
AS> couldn't find any...
I guess the same thing could be said about fig trees tha don't
bear fruit. :)
... "We became gods the old-fashioned way...We EARNED it!"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: detwitting twits
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:34:00
EID:cc0b 20895c40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 17:13, Robert Jackson got back to Michael Hardy
MH> old way. I've turned off the twit filters, and will return to doing
my
MH> own filtering.
RJ> Hey, who was the "secret twit", btw?
No need to raise my hand. After all, I was listed first on Mikey's
twisted list the first time around and was twitted first by him
after he lowered his blasphemy shield the second time.
(Eat your heart out, Fredric!)
... "Thread Dropped, discussion welcome." Michael "clueless" Hardy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:40:00
EID:8a65 20895d00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-09-96 08:23, Steve Rose got back to Lee Woofenden
SR> Lee Woofenden wrote in a message to Dan Ceppa:
LW> You have so far failed to demonstrate that the "real world" is
LW> material.
SR> Walk into a solid brick wall. Thanks for the demonstration.
If you need a copy, I'll gladly u/l a copy of Hector's far more
dramatic experiment that they hasn't volunteered to do.
... "I've plummeted to my death and I can't get up!" Leipzig, re: Hector
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: EVIDENCE...
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:45:00
EID:ac9f 20895da0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 20:10, Thomas Biniasz got back to Marty Leipzig
TB> Wow,
Barking again? Or just glad to see him?
TB> Why do you Hate God the way you do.
Which god? There are literally millions to choose from.
TB> And to think all he ever did for us is Love us.
Sorry, I'm straight. The Alt.Sex.God.Fucks.You group meets in
another Echo.
... My God has a bigger dick than your God. -- George Carlin
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: EVIL LOCUTION.
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:48:00
EID:4b43 20895e00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 20:19, Thomas Biniasz got back to Marty Leipzig
TB> With all your self proclaimed wisdom.......
TB> .......................... God makes it a fools mind.
Which is precisely why you believe in your MP god.
Happy now?
... ++++++ Hey Rocky, watch me pull a SAVIOR outta my ass!! :-)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:52:00
EID:2a93 20895e80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 13:03, Mark Craig got back to Steve Rose
MC> I didn't know kikes paid taxes?
I'd tell you to shove it up your ass, but what passes for your
brain is already clogging your sphincter. Bit off your appendix
while you're in there.
... M-O-O-N, that spells Mark Craig, lawrs yes.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: FLOOD IMPOSSIBILITIES.
|Date: 09 Apr 96 11:57:00
EID:6615 20895f20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 20:15, Thomas Biniasz got back to Marty Leipzig
TB> But with God all things are possable.
Then, why didn't he make you semi-intelligent, rather than the
raving lunatic that you are?
... If you fell into a barrel of tits you'd come up sucking your thumb.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:32:00
EID:6dd3 208a5c00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-07-96 09:11, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> Oh, that's all set, eh? Now I just have to come up with the $300
SA> for the beer. :)
DC> That'll work, if you are going to crew for a day... However, the
SA> I guess you're right - $300 would only get me 10 cases, now that I
Not that bad... One case of really good stuff and enough cheaper
stuff after that to last the trip...
And, don't forget that there's a brewery that we'll have in tow!
... "JESUS FUCKING BOTHER!," said Pooh, as he passed a kidney stone.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: HEAVENLY FATHER
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:00:00
EID:5046 20896000
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 19:57, Thomas Biniasz got back to Sue Alexander
TB> wow sue... you Quote the Bible pretty Good. :)
TB> do you have a onling text or what?
She has what you haven't got, scarecrow.
... Fundamentalism is merely charlatanism raised an order of magnitude.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:39:00
EID:bf90 208a5ce0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 06:08, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
1 AS> OR...maybe he's reading you ALL, and just trying to see who will
AS> Why do I feel like I'm in the middle of a sitcom where two people are
DC> Maybe it's because you made comment #1 above?
AS> Probably.
DC> Mikey fails to realize that my noise level parallels his. It's fun
DC> watching him escalate on each post. I only provide the additional
AS> I see a lot of baiting on both sides...
Guess what?!?! You get to do more of this, as I've be re-twitted.
It's sort of like a resurrection, only I have evidence to show that
it happened... Twice!
AS> Well, his twitter is untwitted. So you can ask him directly.
See above, Al...
Seriously, do yourself a favor and don't worry about forwarding
my messages to Mikey. He'll respond again, the next time I piss
him off more. I give him 2 days before he replies again. (Safe
bet, as he's responded to me _after_ he claims he re-twitted me.)
No need for you to be in the middle of it...
... Never say attorneys are useless. They make WONDERFUL bait.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: LEARNED MEN
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:05:00
EID:fd69 208960a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 20:02, Thomas Biniasz got back to Jim Jones
TB> No need to cuss on the net...
Why the fuck not?
TB> Have a little respect... ok.
You earn your respect, you don't demand it, asshole. As it stands,
you are in arears for quite sometime.
... "Eat shit. 10 billion flies can't be wrong." Brian Syme
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:45:00
EID:963f 208a5da0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 07:24, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
KS> G. Schiaparelli 'discovered' the 'canali' on Mars in 1877.
DC> With a date like that, maybe both!
JB> I pointed out the same thing to Germy and got back a diatribe on
JB> 'using a typo to try to humiliate him'.
What can I say? He learned his writing and reading comprehension
from Lee Woofenden...
Have fun, especially if your freezer needs to be filled!
... Even if you ban all books, you can't ban the mind.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Pinnacle of Life
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:30:00
EID:a1c6 208963c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-07-96 06:18, The Raven got back to Sue Armstrong
SA> This indicates a high degree of self-centredness, and can be taken as
SA> evidence for such.
TR> If humans are
TR> not the pinnacle of life on this planet, I'd sure as hell like to know
TR> what is!
There isn't one, Jack. Each and every organism that exists on
this planet owes its existance in some form or fashion to every
other organism that also exists. The path may not be in a direct
line, there may even be some isolated enclaves, but the life
requires the interdependence of all of that life in the system(s).
TR> evolution; our environment no longer shapes us, and has not shaped us
TR> for thousands of years.
Ever stop to think that that may be our downfall?
TR> It is we who shape our environment to suit our whims, not vice versa.
Whims? On a whim, let's kill off every plant on this earth.
What happens, Jack? How much control do we _really_ have?
TR> are, as a species, the top of the pyramid. How else could we be
Kill off those species. What will you eat?
TR> Certainly, we can still be felled by disease. And every once in
They are an organism that is still not fully controlled, aren't they.
TR> catastrophic disaster (such as an asteroid strike) can most possibly
Just another "minor" thing, they we can't control.
TR> aren't capable of doing it themselves. And until another species gains
TR> the ability to expunge us from the Earth, we are the ultimate.
That species is already here, Jack. It, if we are not careful,
will be the one to kill us all of this planet. The name of that
species is H.S.S., though the last 2 S's may be a very vain
overstement.
TR> Are we perfect? Of course not. But are we the pinnacle of life
TR> on this planet? You bet your ass.
Don't flatter yourself. As it stands right now, species are dying
at a rate that rivals the deaths of the dinosaurs. Yet, we have
the knowledge to save those species.
TR> And only a ignorant fool or a willful idiot could possibly think
TR> otherwise.
TR> Jack Butler
In just which camp shall I place you, Jack? A fungus can give you
a chance to live longer. Another one can cut it short...
... "Who the hell needs all of those bison anyway?"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Re: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:41:00
EID:869e 20896520
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-07-96 14:45, Jerry Gilbreath got back to Elliott Finesse
JG> The decay of the earth's magnetic field indicates an upper limit of
JG> about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr. Thomas G. Barnes,
Please explain why the "decay" also shows a reversal in the magnetic
field in which the force, when in line with the poles, shows up
the strongest?
... A clash between the Yugo of belief and the Kenworth of reality. ML
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:49:00
EID:869e 20896620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-07-96 17:00, Jerry Gilbreath got back to Martin Goldberg
JG> I have heard about some of those transitional forms:
You are a bald faced liar for you god, Jerry.
JG> Piltdown man ............ outright fraud
Find out who perpretrated the lie, Jerry.
JG> Nebraska man ............ modeled from a pig's tooth
Based on a quick assumption and a rather quick _newspaper_,
not peer reviewed journal's assesment.
JG> Do you have any more to add?
You, as the missing link between a Fundy and a Moron. After all,
you fall far below the inteligence of either. I'm surprised you
didn't mention the Cardiff Giant, which thoroughly debunks your
claim.
... Fundementalists--the rear end of just about any religion.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mona Noor
|Sub: testing2
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:55:00
EID:4b82 208966e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 18:58, Mona Noor got back to 76422.3417@compuserve.com
-> Re: testing2
Not very well, I see...
MN> just testing by choosing message area and E for enter.
Consider this answer a "freebe". I might have said something
about your erognenous zone, but I won't.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:49:00
EID:be00 208a5e20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-07-96 06:08, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Msg#: 458 Date: 04-04-96
AS> 04:07 From: Al Schroeder Read: Yes
AS> Replied: No To: Al Schroeder Mark:
Still trying to get it set up, I see... :)
AS> Did you ever see the Dr. Phibes movies with Vincent Price? I thought
DC> scene in the entire movie was just after the "Death by Beasts".
AS> Hmmm. I enjoyed it, but I don't recall it word for word. The line
AS> was...?
If you haven't seen my reply to it this next time (please reference
this line!) I'll re-type it, as I hadn't saved it to disk.
Worse come to worse, you are getting used to dealing between the
2 BBS's trying to get an answer!
... "For he *is* the Kwisatz Haderach!" -- Alia Atreides
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 09 Apr 96 12:59:00
EID:7e76 20896760
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-08-96 13:16, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Selena Kerr
SK>DW> How do I know, you ask? Because I'm the guy with his finger on the
SK>DW> button up here in Cheyenne Mountain.
SK>Cool.. so I guess now that I am talking to you I can use my charms to
SK> persuade you not to do it! (:
KW> Better watch out, David. She's about to slip you the pie. ;)
The bigger question:
Will she comb it first?
Hey! You started it!
... Gene Police: You!! ==Out of the pool!==
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE FLOOD
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:54:00
EID:ff10 208a5ec0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 895C0E37
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-06-96 05:06, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> there is no need. On the later, he isn't omniscient.
AS> existence is centered on it. God, presumably, feels the thoughts and
AS> feelings, the pains and joys of all people at once. Even if some are
AS> in agony, there are others here who are on their honeymoon night and
AS> are in ecstacy. That's quite a different existence then being in one
AS> body, and no more...and knowing there is no escape from pain.
Whcih means that he cannot know it, even if he attempts to try. After
all, his only begotten son is recalled into heaven. That's akin to
driving the 24 hrs at Le Mans in 15 minutes. It also falls into
the problem of god being omniscient.
AS> good a Jacuzzi feels on the rest of my body. I am aware of both. But
I
AS> can divert my attention more to one of the experiences.
An omnopotent got can do t, further, he doens't have to let it
happen to know what will happen.
AS> Just like Washington never cut down the cherry tree.
DC> But, the "story" makes a better story....
AS> Of course. Truth is often embellished for storytelling purposes.
You are getting closer, that's for sure...
... "I swear by the sword of my father, Domingo Montoya..."
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE WHAT
|Date: 06 Apr 96 05:21:00
EID:326e 20862aa0
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Andrew Masten <=-
JG> I have to agree with you here. But then who is to say it didn't?
JG> I have always said that the theory of evolution takes more faith to
JG> believe in than the story of creation and should be called the
JG> religion of evolution :-)
am> Jim, your not gonna make alot of friends
am> in this echo. But I like your hudspa.
FR> You're simply agreeing with his ignorance and superstition. The fact
FR> of evolution isn't in debate any more than the fact of gravity is in
FR> debate. Trying to pretend-away reality because you think it hurts your
FR> occultism is childish.
am> Nonsense Fredric. If evolution were a proven fact,
am> than indeed it would not be in debate.
FR> How idiotic.
FR> The directly observed fact of evolution doesn't disappear just because
FR> cultists want to wish it all away. There IS no debate among biologists
FR> of the FACT of evolution. The mode and tempo of evolution, however,
is
FR> discussed.
FR> Evolution is no mre subject to debate than gravity is.
No, Frederick. Gravity is a repeatable, falsifiable and refutable theory.
A
far cry from theories of evolution.
Just for fun I'll attach this file I downloaded.
17 EVIDENCES AGAINST EVOLUTION
------------------------------
By Kevin Martin
1. Moon Dust
2. Magnetic Field
3. Fossil Record
4. Embryonic Recapitulation
5. Probability
6. Second Law of Thermodynamics
7. Vestigial Organs
8. Fossil and Fossil Fuel Formation
9. Punctuated Equilibria
10. Homology/Molecular Biology
11. Dating Methods
12. Dinosaurs
13. Sun's Diameter
14. Nile River's Overflow
15. Earth's Rotation
16. Written Record
17. The Bible
1. MOON DUST
Meteoritic dust falls on the earth continuously, adding up to
thousands, if not millions, of tons of dust per year. Realizing
this, and knowing that the moon also had meteoritic dust piling
up for what they thought was millions of years, N.A.S.A. scien-
tists were worried that the first lunar ship that landed would
sink into the many feet of dust which should have accumulated.
However, only about one-eight of an inch of dust was found, indi-
cating a young moon.
Meteoritic material contributes nickel to the oceans. Taking
the amount of nickel in the oceans and the supply from meteoritic
dust yields an age figure for the earth of just several thousand
years, not the millions (or billions) expressed by evolutionists.
This, and the lack of meteoritic dust piles on the earth, lend to
the belief in a young earth.
2. MAGNETIC FIELD
The earth's magnetic field is decaying rapidly, at a constant
(if not decreasing) rate. At this rate, 8000 years ago the
earth's magnetism would have equaled that of a magnetic star, a
highly unlikely occurrence. Also, if electric currents in the
earth's core are responsible for the earth's magnetism, the heat
generated by these currents 20,000 years ago would have dissolved
the earth.
3. FOSSIL RECORD
Charles Darwin stated, in his Origin of Species, "The geolog-
ical record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large
extent explain why we do not find intermediate varieties, con-
necting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by
the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views on the
nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole
theory."
Now, 130 years and billions of fossils later, we can
rightly reject the view of an incomplete fossil record or of one
"connecting together all . . . forms of life by the finest gradu-
ated steps."
Out of the millions of fossils in the world, not one
transitional form has been found. All known species show up
abruptly in the fossil record, without intermediate forms, thus
contributing to the fact of special creation. Let's take a look
at Archeopteryx, a fossil that some evolutionists claim to be
transitional between reptile and bird.
Archeopteryx is discussed in evolutionist Francis Hitching's
book, The Neck of the Giraffe - Where Darwin Went Wrong. Hitch-
ing speaks on six aspects of Archeopteryx, following here.
(The following six points are quoted from Luther Sunder-
land's book, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, pp.
74-75, the facts of which points he gathered from Hitching's
book.)
1. It had a long bony tail, like a reptile's.
In the embryonic stage, some living birds have
more tail vertebrae than Archeopteryx. They later fuse
to become an upstanding bone called the pygostyle. The
tail bone and feather arrangement on swans are very
similar to those of Archeopteryx.
One authority claims
that there is no basic difference between the ancient
and modern forms: the difference lies only in the fact
that the caudal vertebrae are greatly prolonged. But
this does not make a reptile.
2. It had claws on its feet and on its feathered fore-
limbs.
However, many living birds such as the hoatzin in
South America, the touraco in Africa and the ostrich
also have claws. In 1983, the British Museum of Natural
History displayed numerous species within nine families
of birds with claws on the wings.
3. It had teeth.
Modern birds do not have teeth but many ancient
birds did, particularly those in the Mesozoic. There is
no suggestion that these birds were transitional. The
teeth do not show the connection of Archeopteryx with
any other animal since every subclass of vertebrates
has some with teeth and some without.
4. It had a shallow breastbone.
Various modern flying birds such as the hoatzin have
similarly shallow breastbones, and this does not dis-
qualify them from being classified as birds. And there
are, of course, many species of nonflying birds, both
living and extinct.
Recent examination of Archeopteryx's feathers has
shown that they are the same as the feathers of modern
birds that are excellent fliers. Dr. Ostrom says that
there is no question that they are the same as the
feathers of modern birds. They are asymmetrical with a
center shaft and parallel barbs like those of today's
flying birds.
5. Its bones were solid, not hollow, like a bird's.
This idea has been refuted because the long bones of
Archeopteryx are now known to be hollow.
6. It predates the general arrival of birds by millions
of years.
This also has been refuted by recent paleontological
discoveries. In 1977 a geologist from Brigham Young
University, James A. Jensen, discovered in the Dry Mesa
quarry of the Morrison formation in western Colorado a
fossil of an unequivocal bird in Lower Jurassic rock.
This deposit is dated as 60-million years older than
the Upper Jurassic rock in which Archeopteryx was
found. He first found the rear-leg femur and, later,
the remainder of the skeleton.
This was reported in
Science News 24 September 1977. Professor John Ostrom
commented, "It is obvious we must now look for the
ancestors of flying birds in a period of time much
older than that in which Archeopteryx lived."
And so it goes with the fossil that many textbooks set forth
as the best example of a transitional form. No true intermediate
fossils have been found.
In a letter to Luther Sunderland, dated April 10, 1979, Dr.
Colin Patterson, of the British Museum of Natural History, wrote:
"...I fully agree with your comments on the lack of di-
rect illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book.
If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly
have included them. You suggest that an artist should be
used to visualise such transformations, but where would
he get the information from? I could not, honestly, pro-
vide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic licence,
would that not mislead the reader?"
Just think of it! Here is a man sitting amidst one of the
greatest fossil collections ever and he knows of absolutely NO
transitional fossils. So convincing I believe this quote to be
that it will sum up this discussion on fossil evidence.
4. EMBRYONIC RECAPITULATION
Darwin said that embryological evidence was "second to none
in importance." The idea of embryonic recapitulation, or the
theory that higher life forms go through the previous evolution-
ary chain before birth, was popularized by Ernst Haeckel in 1866.
It was later found that Haeckel forged the diagrams which he used
is evidence for the theory.
The main arguments for embryonic recapitulation are the sup-
posed "gill slits" (left over from fish), "yolk sac" (left over
from the reptile stage), and "tail" (from the monkeys) in the
human embryo. The gill slits, so called, are never slits, nor do
they ever function in respiration. They are actually four pairs
of pharyngeal pouches: the first pair become germ-fighting or-
gans; the second, the two middle ear canals; the third and fourth
pairs become the important parathyroid and thymus glands.
The yolk sac does not store food because the mother's body
provides this to the embryo. In fact, the "yolk sac" is not a
yolk sac at all, but its true function is to produce the first
blood cells.
The "tail" is just the tip of the spine extending beyond the
muscles of the embryo. The end of this will eventually become the
coccyx, which is instrumental in the ability to stand and sit as
humans do.
Also arguing against recapitulation is the fact that differ-
ent higher life forms experience different stages in different
orders, and often contrary to the assumed evolutionary order.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Total Access News & Info Sys, Tacoma, WA 206-472-9884 (1:138/103)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Adolph Hitler Was a C
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:07:55
EID:b047 208a78e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 316c0855
REPLY: 1:215/130 00033633
Here's what Elliott Finesse said to Dan Ceppa about Adolph Hitler Was a
C:
EF> Just saw Mr. Rice's response to my evidence - he deleted it and
EF> completely ignored it! ROFL! I mever thought I'd ever a fundy atheist.
EF> Is this SOP for him?
Yes. He routinely deletes segments of messages that he finds inconvenient
to answer. I once re-sent him a message three times before he finally answered
it. When he did, he missed the point as usual, and then continued to accuse
me of saying all kinds of things that I never said and that he had no evidence
of my ever saying. To this day he insists that I made various claims that
I never did; to this day he has not brought forward a scrap of evidence
to show that I did make those claims. The lack of evidence does not deter
him from his beliefs, however.
Perhaps we should re-activate the Fundy Atheist Hall of Fame for him...
--Lee
... Do not anger a Bard, for you are silly and would make a funny song.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: christology
|Date: 10 Apr 96 14:51:53
EID:1cee 208a7660
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 316c0851
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64e0819e
Here's what Martin Goldberg said to Lee Woofenden about christology:
MG>> The fact that copyright laws and patents and so forth were a
MG>> modern day invention, does not mean that they are based on
MG>> religon.
LW> I don't recall that being an issue in this discussion.
MG> I certainly do. I thought that the basis of this is that "moral
MG> structure comes from divine inspiration." If not, what is it?
The discussion was about whether intellectual property rights existed in
the cultures and during the periods in which the Bible was written. The
reason this became an issue was that various atheists accused the Bible
and the Biblical writers of employing plagiarism, false attribution of texts,
etc.--things which are only considered offenses in a culture that has a
well-developed sense of intellectual property rights.
MG>> The same idea that taking things is wrong, is the basis of
MG>> the concept, which is as old as the time when there WERE
MG>> things to take from each other.
LW> Agreed. It's just that it took a further psychological evolution
LW> for us to apply that concept to ideas as well as physical
LW> objects. That is not surprising. After all, it took quite a bit
LW> of evolution to develop the idea of property and stealing at all.
LW> Among most other animals, no such idea is recognized--though
LW> there is a developed system of territoriality among many
LW> animals.
MG> Laws to prevent theft of ANY property certainly are not thought up by
MG> theives, but by those stolen from. No matter what the property, those
MG> stolen from feel cheated. This is why I disagree with you. having
MG> something taken from you has always been wrong in the eyes of the
MG> stolen from.
The question isn't whether stealing was perceived as wrong. The question
is whether using somebody else's ideas without attribution was considered
stealing in Biblical times.
MG> That's why there were societal laws against all theft long
MG> before religion was around...at least as we know it.
My impression from the various materials on early humans that I've read
is that religion has been around as long as societal laws have been around--and
that in their early stages religion and societal law were inextricable intertwined.
--Lee
... Get the facts first--you can distort them later!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Defining Death
|Date: 10 Apr 96 20:02:00
EID:3f97 208aa040
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 316c4d3b
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31666bb0
Here's what Sue Armstrong said to Rick Mcfarlane about Defining Death:
LW> That's the "permanence" definition of death.
RM> I guess we all can recognize that a skeleton is dead. But the "dead
RM> dog" problem, as Lovelock put it (I've got these identical twin dogs,
RM> lying here asleep at my feet, and one of them just died, 2 seconds
RM> ago. What is the difference? What is it that makes the one dog alive
RM> but the other dead?) is not an easy question to answer.
SA> Well, the obvious conclusion is, that the living dog still
SA> respires, his heart still beats, cells still replace themselves,
SA> there is still brain and neural activity, and it still digests any
SA> food it might still have in its GI tract, while the dead dog does
SA> none of these things. Also, the still-living dog will eventually
SA> wake up and start doing his usual doggy things, whereas the dead
SA> dog won't ever awaken.
We know the results. The question is, what makes it be that way?
--Lee
... Escape Reality. Read Fiction.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: EPISTEMOLOGY
|Date: 10 Apr 96 14:38:06
EID:5c27 208a74c0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 316c084f
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300832af
Here's what Fredric Rice said to Lee Woofenden about EPISTEMOLOGY:
> If the subject is a material entity, yes. Science only applies to the
> physical world. If there is anything beyond the physical world, it is
> beyond the realm of science.
FR> Welp guess you might as well pretend pixies exist, huh?
Welp, guess you might as well stop trying to argue from a scientific viewpoint
about something that is beyond science's purview, huh?
JM>> Read John Dominic Crossan's "Jesus - A Revolutionary Biography".
SJ> I haven't got the time. - Stephen Jones
JM> Of course... you have the time to spread superstition but not
Jm> the time to understand where it comes from. - John FR> Musselwhite
I read the book. A good read.
Of course, Crossan's speculations about the origins of Christianity have
to be put beside the dozens, even hundreds of similar speculations by various
people as to the origins of Christianity. Fact is, Crossan doesn't know
how it started any more than any other researcher does. He weaves an interesting
theory though.
Do you believe in it?
--Lee
... About as much sense as ejection seats in a helicopter!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: NDE occult beliefs
|Date: 10 Apr 96 14:42:30
EID:7a6b 208a7540
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 316c0850
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 300832b0
Here's what Fredric Rice said to Lee Woofenden about NDE occult beliefs:
FR> Perhaps you should read Susan Blackmore and actually divest
FR> yourself of some of that gross ignorance, Lee.
lw> I have read a bit of Susan Blackmore, _and_
lw> I have read some of the critiques of her work.
FR> No doubt with your occult bias firmly entrenched in your mind.
lw> Just as your materialistic bias is firmly entrenched in your
lw> mind when you read material on either side of the NDE question.
FR> That's one way to avoid the embarrassing truth: Pretend that medical
FR> science is just an unfounded opinion which can be easilly ignored.
We're not talking about ignoring medical science. We're talking about refutations
of theories proposed by scientists. Blackmore's has been shown not to adequately
explain NDE phenomena. There are also serious methodological problems with
her work. I can dig up the references for you if you're interested in expanding
your mind instead of wearing fundy atheist blinders.
FR> The HURTFUL truth is, Lee, that medical science understands the
FR> physiological aspects of the dying brain. You ignore the truth
FR> because you want to play pretend.
Fredric, if you want to play pretend, that's your choice. The HURTFUL truth
is that no scientific theory yet proposed to explain NDEs without reference
to spiritual phenomena has been able to fully account for NDE phenomena.
That doesn't mean there couldn't be one--just that no fully adequate one
has been found so far.
I understand that your fundy atheist belief requires you to jump to such
conclusions as you have in this thread. Too bad you can't back up your beliefs
with evidence.
--Lee
... A critic is a person who knows the way but can't drive the car.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:05:01
EID:21bc 208a78a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 316c0853
REPLY: 1:116/19 0337E4A4
Here's what Al Schroeder said to Lee Woofenden about THE PATTERN OF THE
BIBLE:
LW> Right. The thing that intrigues me is that fundy atheists have just
as
LW> condemnatory an attitude toward people who disagree with them as fundy
LW> Christians have toward people who disagree with them. What we have here
is a
LW> mirror image.
AS> So what else is new? There have been jokes that some of the more
AS> rabid antitheists would have a lot in common with say, Cotton Mather
AS> denouncing the heathen.
It's sort of like matter and antimatter. Put them together and they annihilate
each other. ;-)
--Lee
... 90% of the time I'm right, so why worry about the other 3%?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: the problem with David Worrell
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:01:57
EID:ec01 208a7820
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 316c0852
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 64e0862a
Here's what Martin Goldberg said to Lee Woofenden about the problem with
Christianity:
MG>> Jesus Christ.....all we have to do is to proclaim our
MG>> relgion based on downloading pornography fromt he net.
LW> Does this imply that you are in favor of censorship?
MG> I am definitly not for censorship, but the contest of this has slipped
MG> me, if it was there int he first place.
David Worrell had quoted me out of context to make it look like I was saying
that people should be allowed to do anything, no matter how heinous, as
long as they do it in the name of religion. That's not what I was saying,
but it suited David's purposes to make it look like I was.
--Lee
... Can't refute the message? Attack the messenger!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Savory? Curry?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:04:50
EID:a9ce 208a5880
MSGID: 1:352/266 316C4972
LB> Savory, hmmm. (looking both ways for signs of Robert Curry) Um, how
LB> aboutpepper??
Hmmmmmmmmmm Curry could be Savory, but I haven't met him. Pepper, hey that
works for me! Green, Yellow, Orange, Red.... I like them all.
LB> Helen Keller (1880-1968), U.S. author, lecturer.
LB> The Story of My Life, pt. 1, ch. 21 (1903).
Another quote I'll have to look up and keep handy.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Jaysus Crust
|To: Jesus The Christ
|Sub: Blowing smoke?
|Date: 11 Apr 96 08:28:02
EID:8ac1 208b4380
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 167e837f
REPLY: 3:640/201.3 316bc425
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jesus The Christ wrote in a message to Jesus Christ:
FR>> Nowhere in history has there ever been anything written by a
FR>> "Jesus Christ."
JC> Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find a decent publisher?
JTC> You must be one of these imposters daddy told me about :)
You phoney Hollywood actor pretty-boy fuck-ups. You wouldn't know one true
Crust if he swooped down rammed you in the ass. I know that *I* would!
Jaysus - I am ready for my close-up now, C.B.! - Crust
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Re: The Problem with Davi
|Date: 10 Apr 96 22:56:00
EID:511a 208ab700
MSGID: 1:215/130 0019841c
In a message dated 04-03-96 Lee Woofenden wrote to Norbert Sykes:
>
> However, in our society religious belief is not seen as a justificatio
> murder--a position I happen to agree with. About as far as I would go
> that in a case of murder for religious motives, when the killer sincer
> believed that s/he was doing a morally correct thing, the severity of
> sentence should perhaps be mitigated somewhat in view of the fact that
> person was acting in what s/he believed to be a moral fashion.
Like the religious terrorists who blow up planes, for instance.
> This could be put in the same category as people who kill someone beca
> believe they are protecting someone else, when in fact that someone el
> no danger from the murdered person. The killer was acting on a misconc
> rather than from malevolent intent.
How about clergy who molest children, and believe they are justified in
doing so by the Bible? I have some real examples of this.
Fact is, to convict for murder, the perpetrator must have an evil state
of
mind and evil intent. They must show mens rea - a guilty mind. This is
fairly easy to do. For instance, would your religious human sacrificers
try to hide what they did in any way?
Also, claiming moral justification isn't a defense - if they knew that
society said it was wrong and went ahead and did it anyway. In other
words, they knew right from wrong. It doesn't matter that they didn't
agree with it.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Re: the problem with Chri
|Date: 10 Apr 96 22:56:00
EID:e7c9 208ab700
MSGID: 1:215/130 00198425
In a message dated 04-03-96 Lee Woofenden wrote to Fredric Rice:
> SF> Fact is, however, Christanic death cultists __ARE__ granted
> SF> special dispensation when they murder for their gods than others
> SF> who just murder.
>
> Sort of like folks in the military when they're at war, people defendi
> themselves, people who kill accidentally, doctors whose patients die o
> operating table, etc.
>
You think a religious _excuse_ mitigates to the level of negligence or
accident?
What is so exalted about believing in some god that you think it deserves
getting away with murder? And that IS what you are saying in your analogy
"Sort of like folks in the military when they're at war, people defending
themselves, people who kill accidentally, doctors whose patients die on
the operating table, etc."
If this isn't what you mean, please spare me the "that isn't what I
meant." Instead just TELL ME WHAT YOU DO MEAN.
Hey, come to think about it, that UniBomber dude is one sincere mother
fucker. How much should that mitigate his crimes?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
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|From: Ric Carter
|To: MARILYN BURGE
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:43:00
EID:a8e5 2087bd60
MB> On (01 Apr 96) Karen Davis wrote to Jerry Gilbreath...
KD> What about the dietary requirements of the animals while on
KD> the ark and afterwards?
MB> Oh, yeah. Gawd turned all the carnivores into vegetarians for
MB> the duration. Handy. Huh?
And managed to squeeze some 1- to 7-pairs each of some 40 million
species of insects, 1 million species of vertebrates, and who-knows-
how-many millions of species of microorganisms, into a boat about
the size of an old SF Bay ferry. Hell, just the 7 pairs each of the
three species of elephants woulda had some bothersome impact, eh?
I've been on those old ferries. I wouldn't wanna manage the life-
support system for 6 weeks, nosirreebob. Wouldn't wanna muck it out.
Don't think I could hold my nose long enough. Yow.
MB> ... "Creation Science" aint.
Any discipline containing the word "science", isn't. Cf. Christian
Science, Creation Science, Computer Science...
Ric "I keep all my demons in test-tubes" Carter, ric@sonic.net
... No, I'm not a cop. What can I get for fifty bucks?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 10 Apr 96 00:02:00
EID:7593 208a0040
MSGID: 1:116/19 043433BC
AS> What, wimps? JUST KIDDING! But I was brought up in the
AS> Superman/John Wayne/Gary Cooper version of morality, where "real
AS> men" did NOT hit women, if they did they were cowards. (If someone
AS> out there says Wayne or Cooper slapped around women, don't tell me.
SA> I don't think Wayne ever did (at least not in the movies) but I
SA> found his attitude in the movies to be kind of grating (though, he
SA> did get shown up a couple of times; I did like Rooster Cogburn,
SA> where Katherine Hepburn gives him what-for.)
I'm not a big fan of John Wayne (or for that matter, most Westerns) but
there was generally a feeling that ANY man who hit a woman was a coward
and a bully. It is a mindset that I wish would be stressed more. (The
problem is to have strong assertive women in fiction, like Diana Rigg,
etc. as good role models--and of course Diana Rigg could trounce
practically ANY male with her karate and judo...and yet keep enough of the
mindset that it is felt cowardly to hit a woman.)
AS> Let me keep my illusions.) Not to mention Lancelot and Sir Galahad
AS> and all that.
SA> Ah, Lancelot was an emotional mess. Galahad's too ..... high and
SA> mighty for my tastes. In White, he seemed too "above it all" to
SA> really care about.
Lancelot WAS an emotional mess. That is what made him fascinating.
Galahad...never read WHITE, but I remember in my teens trying to write
a story about Galahad, the way T.H. White wrote his Arthurian stories,
only White chickened out trying to do Galahad directly, only reporting
it. I think something could be done with Galahad, story wise. He was a
bastard, his grandfather was as batty as a bedbug and his mother wasn't
much better. He had a destiny and acted on it, but he never could live
for himself. And just before his "ascension" he had to act as abitrator
and judge for a city...a complex and terrifying thing for a young man
who knew God far, far, better than his fellow human beings. For
Lancelot the challenge was acting according to what God wanted for him,
since he was too earthy. For Galahad, the challenge was the exact
opposite...to try to come to grips with human beings. I had a lot of
fun with that story...ran about 130 pages as I recall, and finished in
only a week and a half. It seemed to almost POUR out, although the fact
that I could pretty much fellow Malory and put in my own snide comments
helped.
... Posted by my evil twin, Skippy.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 10 Apr 96 00:08:00
EID:4438 208a0100
MSGID: 1:116/19 04343CCC
AS> Because the black population is such a relativley large minority.
SA> One wonders whether it's really a minority at all.
Most American cities they are a minority. Atlanta and Washington DC,
however, I believe the black population is the majority, and truth to
tell, I'm not sure about Detroit.
AS> You don't usually think of Italian Catholic neighborhoods in Canada.
AS> Another stereotype shattered.
SA> Heh. Never been to Toronto, have you? :) Go to different parts of
SA> the city, and you'll see differently bilingual street signs.
SA> Depending where you are, you'll see signs in both English and
SA> Greek, Chinese, Arabic, etc. Toronto is also home to a
SA> multicultural superstation that broadcasts shows in 17 different
SA> languages. The other Toronto station available on cable, CITY-TV,
SA> also shows multicultural programming on the weekends, and so does
SA> a station in Hamilton. In Windsor, though we don't have stations
SA> like that, you can get a variety of foriegn-language books at the
SA> main library - they have languages there I'd never even heard of,
SA> including Tagalog and Urdu, among others. If you were so
SA> inclined, you could read "The Last Temptation" in the original
SA> Greek - I've seen a copy there. (I was tempted to try it, but it
SA> goes far beyond my grasp of the language.)
It's a pretty good book (I read it in translation), better than the
movie. I read it in college long before the movie was made.
AS> I hereby apologize to any modeming aborigines. (Or is the pc term
AS> "Native Australian"?)
SA> Never heard that term used. Aborigine seems just fine to them, I
SA> suppose. Besides, you'd have a problem with 1) the descendants of
SA> the squatters not liking to not be considered "native" to the
SA> country and 2) the descendants of the convicts insisting it's not
SA> their fault their ancestors were sent there. :)
I think it would be rather neat to know you were the descendent of a
convinct, myself...lend a little color to the family tree...
AS> With an Australian boyfriend, I BET you have...
SA> Mm. I wanted to try to get in on my own merit, but I don't even
SA> qualify for the stand-by point pool. Of course, I took a look at
SA> the Canadian immigration requirements, and if I wasn't a citizen,
SA> they wouldn't let me live here, either. I'm about 20 points short
SA> to live in my own country. :) Of course, so is Adam (I figured
SA> out HIS points) and HE can't move here, either, even when I
SA> factored in the PhD he'll be getting this year (Though, the
SA> Canadian requirement goes mostly by occupation - his was only
SA> worth 1 point. The Australian one is based mostly on education
SA> required for one's stated occupation, which is where I'm screwed. I
SA> don't actually know where I would fit in, and the High Commission
SA> is singularly unhelpful. My fear is that they'd consider a
SA> cartoonist as needing NO education, worth a whopping 0 points.)
Mention that it's on the Internet, and accessed there, so that requires
some education (although computer neophytes think it takes much more
education than it really does).
... When subtlety fails us, we must resort to cream pies.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BADMOUTH
|Date: 10 Apr 96 01:04:00
EID:6681 208a0880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04344942
On (05 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Michael Hardy...
MH> And they accuse US of circular reasoning. It's Marilyn's affection
MH> for such arguments that caused me to lose any respect I may have had
MH> for her intellect.
AS> Oh, I have no doubts about her intellect. She's just opinionated. It
AS> makes for some interesting debates, because I can be pretty
AS> opinionated too.
MB> Now you see exactly why I will not untwit Michael. He judges
MB> people based on how closely they agree with his conclusions.
MB> In other words, whether he recognizes it or not, he places
MB> himself as the absolute authority on "right" thinking. Need
MB> I say more?
But wouldn't it be more productive (and more fun) to prove where your
or Mack's reasoning is NOT circular?
MB> There isn't a single intelligent person who ever came to an
MB> opinion that differed from Mikey's obviously "right" opinions.
Well, if you think he is that dogmatic, the most interesting thing to do
is to show where he is wrong. Or at least it is for ME.
But then, I'm a masochist.
MB> And he calls himself a Christian. Fat chance! He's
MB> a Christian's worst nightmare.
Um. Well, I can think of some Christians I have much more trouble
with--Jim Germ-whatsis and his "backhanding" women, Grigor-Scott and
his "anti-Semitic Jews", etc. Perhaps I just can't see past my bias since
he's a fellow Christian (although I have slammed the two above) but I
don't see that as big a problem with him as you seem to.
... I'm not evil, I'm "morally challenged".
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 10 Apr 96 02:05:00
EID:311d 208a10a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04344D7A
AS> What I found more disturbing was the attitude. "It's okay for
AS> these first century ignoramuses to believe these things, but
AS> WE know better." That of course ignores the obvious question.
AS> Exactly in WHAT century is the idea that a virgin can give
AS> birth, or that a man can be raised from the dead, more
AS> acceptable? To Joseph, to Peter, to John, the idea of a
AS> virgin giving birth, or a man rising from the dead, was every
AS> bit as impossible as it seems to us. If they didn't know all
AS> the details of sperm and ova, they certainly knew in the
AS> course of things that a virgin does not give birth. They
AS> probably knew better than we (who rarely observe corpses)
AS> that dead men don't rise.
MB> I strongly disagree on this one. It is clear from reading the
MB> mythologies of many different cultures that they accepted as a
MB> given that god(s) did all kinds of things that mere mortals
MB> were incapable of doing. Given that, it is hardly a stretch to
MB> conclude that they strongly accepted the premise that god(s)
MB> (ALL of them not just Jehovah) were clearly above the laws of
MB> nature that the rest of us were stuck with.
Of course; and we are not in disagreement on that one. They indeed did
regard miracles as within the province of Gods; and that the gods or God,
being the Creator of those selfsame laws, were above the laws of nature
that we are stuck with. In other words; it has always been unacceptable
for US to concede they happen in the normal run of things, and it has
always been considered the province...one might say the hallmark...of
gods.
That has not changed. There has been no shift in paradigms on that one.
IF I could raise people from the dead, or walk on water, or whatever it
would be strong evidence for me being in contact with something beyond
the normal course of Nature. Educated men have been seduced by seeming
miracles...witness Carlos Castenada and his tales of Yaqui magic, which
he claims really happened, although personally I think Don Juan uses an
especially potent blend of peyote , or Oliver Lodge and Sir Arthur
Conan Doyle turning to spiritualism because they think they have
witnessed ectoplasm forming, etc. To claim that we no longer believe
miracles can happen, and that any religion based on the report of such
would alienate the modern mind simply means he is not conversant with a
lot of modern minds. From faith healing for the religious to Psychic
hotlines for the new age-ish, it is sheer blindness to assume that most
people cannot swallow things outside the normal laws of nature and that
Christianity must change in order to survive in that respect.
It has ALWAYS been regarded as "impossible" for a man to rise from the
dead, or a virgin to give birth, etc. unless some force outside the laws
of nature reaches in and gives it impetus. Whether you are talking about
a pagan god like Apollo or Jehovah or Kali or whomever.
... If it's too good to be true, our taxes must be paying for it.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: ISMs
|Date: 10 Apr 96 05:03:00
EID:bbdb 208a2860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04345A72
MH> Considerate lover: Was it good for you too?
MH> Swinger: Was it good for you two?
MH> Farmhand: Was it good for ewe too?
MH> Moralist: Was it good for you to?
AS> Fetishist: Was it good for you, shoe?
EM> Jesse Helms: Was it for , ?
EM> Couldn't help myself.
EM> Edweird
That's what Jesse Helms said...
Husband of policewoman: Was it good for you, blue?
... I think sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRIs
|Date: 10 Apr 96 03:01:00
EID:0d5f 208a1820
MSGID: 1:116/19 04345E8C
ED> Remember that Hitler was a ruthless politician. He could say anything
he
ED> wanted, but his actions speak louder than his rhtoric.
ED> According to John Gunther in his book, INSIDE EUROPE,1938 ed.,:
ED> *He was born and brought up a Roman Catholic. But lost faith early and
attends
ED> no religious services of any kind. His Catholicism means nothing to
him....On
ED> being formed his government almost immdiately began a fierce religious
war
ED> against Catholics, Protestants, and Jews alike.*
ED> Gunther contends that Hitler biggest priority was the unification of
Germany,
ED> there had to be a removal from the Reich any competition which was
ED> international like the Vatican and Judaism. Hitler considered Catholicism
a
ED> dangerous enemy and had a campaign against the *black moles*, as Nazis
called
ED> priests. Hitler also tried to install one his own men as an army chaplain
in
ED> the Lutheran Church, so to he could have some control over it. It never
seemed
ED> to work, however. Some of Hitler's followers turned
ED> to Paganism. They found the Norse myths to their liking.
ED> In a speech at Nuremberg in 1935, Hitler said *Christianity succeeded
for a
ED> time in uniting the old Teutonic tribes, but the Reformation destroyed
this
ED> unity. Germany is now a united nation. National Socialism has succeeded
where
ED> Christiananity failed.*
ED> Hitler also once said, *We do not want any other God than Germany itself.*
ED> Germany was Hitler's religion.
Saved to disc. It won't help against Fred, he will never admit no matter
how much evidence we show, but it's something else to repost so OTHERS
don't swallow that lie, anyway.
Thanks, Ed.
... "Let's get out of here Mulder, as fast as we can!" - Dana Scully
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: SPONG ON THE HERESY TRIAL
|Date: 10 Apr 96 03:05:00
EID:dff7 208a18a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04346594
AS> scholarly book on the Execution of Jesus, written by a former
AS> professor of Duke university. There were scrawled references from a
AS> busybody who disagreed with some of his points. He makes some
DC> I hate it when people do that to a borrowed book...
Yeah. LET ME FORM MY OWN OPINIONS!
AS> interesting speculations. Most of the criticism of the trial of
AS> Jesus...part of it being mentioned as happening at nighttime, for
AS> instance, that goes against the Mishnah...or where the members have
to
DC> That's what leads to speculation that it was written by someone
DC> other than a first hand witness, of course.
Sure. The odd thing is, the nighttime thing is in what many consider the
oldest Gospels...Mark and Matthew. (Matthew according to Irenaeus, Mark
according to textural scholarship.) Luke and John, which many feel are
later, did not. Is it a case of correcting a misapprehension, or is there
something else...either a kangaroo court (Philo records cases of Jews
violating the law) or a shift in the rules?
AS> So I think there is enough room for doubt to wonder (A) the result of
AS> using third-century legal standards (the Mishnah) on the first century
AS> Sanhedrin might be wrong, that standards might have changed since then
AS> or (B) if they followed a different legal standard under the Sadducean
AS> high priest or (C) they were eager enough for Jesus' death to "bend"
AS> the law and do a kangaroo court.
DC> Jewish tradition is very slow to change. The trial was most
DC> likely described by someone not well versed in Judaism, and written
DC> for the intrigue such a time frame would carry.
Could be. But of all the Gospels, Luke seems most geared for Gentiles.
DC> I've had a few books on order for over 2 years now. There are at
AS> Go to the main library in your area, and check about area resources.
DC> I'll do another request... It's been some time since the last time.
DC> Maybe the book has finally gotten back to where it's supposed to be.
Then maybe they call it something else. But a public library can order a
book that is currently on ANY other shelves of a public or university
library that is open to the general reader. Ask them if there is a way to
order the book from another library. It's called an "inter-library loan",
if you're willing to pay the postage to get the book.
... Why do people with money tell poor people that money isn't everything?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 10 Apr 96 03:01:00
EID:31b2 208a1820
MSGID: 1:116/19 043469CC
AS> Of course. But when mentions "devil" and the "sixties", "Sympathy for
AS> the Devil" is a natural to remember...
DC> For some reason, that song has gotten a lot of air time lately.
It's a sign of the times. (Which doesn't say much for the times...)
AS> no matter Who we were discussing
AS> before. Don't throw Stones at honest rememberance. That's for the
AS> Byrds.
DC> Go ahead, Turn, Turn, Turn a phrase into something else.
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the Wind...as Linda Lovelace
remarked to PEter and Paul (with Mary looking on, disgusted) during the
hurricane.
DC> Lost what? I've always been this way. I found out a long time
DC> ago that you have to be a bit crazy or you will go crazy!
AS> Too, too true.
DC> Learned that when I worked in the nursing home. The really sane
DC> new employees never lasted very long.
Maybe a sense of humor, a little irrationality, is the escape valve that
keeps someone TRULY sane.
AS> If I can just get those Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse out of my
AS> way....
DC> Just tell them to take a flying leap. I'll Pegasus that you will.
No, I had a crash. I Sleipnir-ed on the road on an icy patch and hit a
wall.
... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 10 Apr 96 03:06:00
EID:898d 208a18c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04346E2C
-> On 04-04-96 04:07, Al Schroeder got back to Al Schroeder
DC> Talking to yourself again? ;)
Since it was obviouisly meant for you...take it as a compliment.
AS> Hmmm. I enjoyed it, but I don't recall it word for word. The line
AS> was...?
DC> Well, the victim was skewered into a partition with a unicorns's
DC> horn. As they went to remove the body, they had to turn it around
DC> and around, as it was a spiral horn. You may have noticed that the
DC> victim's feet show up on each side of the partition as they do so.
DC> The line that really makes the scene is where someone says, "Careful,
DC> I think it's a left-handed thread..."
ROFL! (pounding floor).
AS> Terror just ain't what it used to be...
DC> No, it's not. The special effects have taken over and the real
DC> terror is generally abscent in most of the current incarnations
DC> of the genre.
The people who understand how terror really works...like Robert
Bloch...are regrettably few. (Or perhaps fortunately for those with weak
hearts...)
... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 10 Apr 96 03:06:00
EID:e751 208a18c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0434737C
AS> I would have loved it if they had depowered him to his original
AS> powers...which was basically the Hulk's strength and leaping
DC> Only cut him down part of a peg, not the two or pegs necessary..
Pretty much. Compared to we mere mortals he's still pretty omnipotent.
But no time travel, for instance on his own power.
AS> Well, there is still ONE Bizarro, who has shown up twice. Gone is
AS> the Bizarro world. There is only one piece of kryptonite, and its
DC> Rats! The was the best part of it, sort of like the Spoofs that
DC> they used to do with the Marvel characters.
Yeah. Did you know that Jerry Siegal, Superman's creator, wrote most of
those Bizarro World stories, although he himself did not create Bizarro?
DC> Any reference as to how they came up with that name?
Myxy? Haven't the foggiest, actually. Sorry.
AS> kryptonite that robbed Supes of his powers. totally remade...he is now a millionaire who runs most of the
DC> Sounds like they took that story line from the movies, or was
DC> that vice versa?
Um, maybe a little, but the way Luthor was portrayed in the TV show LOIS
AND CLARK is closer to the way he acts now, sort of running Metropolis as
its economic czar.
AS> he no longer is. Oh, and Superman was never a Superboy when
AS> younger.
DC> Just how do they explain that?
Do you perhaps remember Earth-One, Earth-Two? A parallel Earth for the
Justice Society, and the Justice LEague? It got too cumbersome, so they
had a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" which combined them into one history.
As a consequence, they had an altered, combined history where most people
remembered both the Justice League and Justice Societies, etc.
And the heroes who were virtually the same on both worlds in essence
were combined. Superman got an origin revamped...the idea is that young
Kal-El has been storing solar energy for years. When he was young, he
WASN'T super, but his power started increasing little by little, so that
he wasn't able to lift a truck until grade school, didn't get x-ray
vision until adolescence (JUST in time...) and didn't start flying
until he was oh, seventeen or so. He is the ONLY survivor of Krypton, no
Krypto, Super-Monkey, bottle city of Kandor, etc.
If you rewrite history, you can do silliness like that.
Of course...that DID leave a GAPING hole in the continuity of, say, the
Legion of Super-Heroes which has a huge fan following and Superboy was an
essential member. So they ended up creating a "pocket universe" where the
Time Trapper created his own Superboy and...
If you think their efforts to "simplify" DC continuity instead made it
much MORE complicated...bingo.
Unfortunately, Marvel is about to make the same mistake. There is a new
series coming out from Marvel called ONSLAUGHT, which is going to change
MARVEL's history. Captain America won't be stuck in the ice, worshipped
by Eskimoes, to be freed by Sub-Mariner and found by the Avengers. They
are going to rewrite the origins and the first issues of Fantastic Four,
the Avengers, Captain America, Iron Man...many badly in need of changing,
but judging by the post-Crisis DC, this is going to be a mistake of MAJOR
proportions. The idea that Rob Liefield, a contemporary comic wunderkind,
is more "right" about Captain America than Lee and Kirby...is flat out
STUPID.
Lee will be here in Nashville this weekend, and my son wants to see
him (I met him and Kirby back in the early seventies when they spoke at
Vanderbilt)...I wonder what HE thinks of all this? He's still nominally
publisher, although more wrapped up in media projects for Marvel.
... I hit my CTRL key, but I'm still not in control.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 10 Apr 96 04:05:00
EID:fb6d 208a20a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 043477B4
KW> Pride is a big part of it. You don't want to admit that you've made
KW> that big a mistake. Another part of it is that most women who've found
KW> themselves stuck in an abusive situation have been isolated from outside
KW> contact, and in some degree or another convinced that something that
KW> they are doing is bringing on the abuse. The abuser is usually carrying
KW> on about something you've supposedly done just before he starts
KW> swinging (You go out of your way to embarrass me, don't you! You think
KW> that you are so smart! Why can't you behave like a decent woman! SMACK!!
KW> Can't you ever learn! WHAM!!!)
Ugh. I can't imagine. I really can't.
KW> The set up. Peter was handsome, polite, possessive, and very attentive.
KW> He looked like a great catch. He didn't hit me until we'd been engaged
KW> for several months. He didn't even verbally abuse me until after I
had
KW> committed to him. Before that, he was the ideal prince.
That's sort of what others have said. That even if they live with the guy
beforehand, that he's Prince Charming until after marriage. As if
something in that ceremony makes them think they own the woman, lock,
stock and bruises.
KW> And then there is the aftermath, the 'making up' time. It takes a few
KW> times for most of us to catch on to the fact that the real world is
the
KW> beating and not the making up. Afterwards you are hurt, scared, and
KW> totally emotionally devastated. You feel like you have nothing to fall
KW> back on, nothing to hold to. When the guy turns on the petting and
KW> promises, it feels like that is the only safety in the world to cling
to.
KW> And the whole time he's convincing you that it was something that you
KW> said, or did, or simply are that triggered the whole thing and drove
KW> him into that behaviour. That it is your fault that he is no longer
KW> acting the wonderful man her was at first. So you are a bit shakier,
and
KW> a bit more likely to try to avoid setting him off, and it happens over
KW> and over and over....
Skinnerian conditioning. I'm so sorry you had to endure that,
Katherine...as if that helps now.
... The Illuminati do not exist. Really. We're not kidding.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: WHO'S WHO
|Date: 10 Apr 96 05:07:00
EID:863e 208a28e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04347D2C
AS> I understand Jim is showing up at irc chat, according to Lynda...
KW> I've seen him and Lump both there a few times. Are you ever going to
KW> show up? I'd enjoy chatting with you.
And I with you. I've logged on a very few times with regular IRC, text
only, but that seemed kind of clumsy--Lynda and Dave and Kevin were there,
one time, and I met Fred's son. And when I try to use MIRC, it says,
"cannot bind socket". I keep on meaning to ask my provider if they have
any problem with MIRC, but I've been fairly busy lately, and haven't had
much chance. Next week, starting Thursday, I'm taking a few days
off...Barb's making a trip to New York for a convention of her favorite
soap opera (she did the same last year) that she's been planning for
months, so I'll watch after the kids and stuff. Maybe I'll get a chance
then. (Also bear in mind that Barb likes to use the computer, my son likes
to use the computer...someday we'll have multiple computers, but not right
now.)
... Posted by my evil twin, Skippy.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 10 Apr 96 04:08:00
EID:9f1e 208a2100
MSGID: 1:116/19 04348254
AS>KW> Al, are you trying to smoke out the punsters again?
AS>On a hotly debated topic? Of course. But I'm not trying to flame anybody.
KW> Just sparking a crackling good time for all, eh?
I'm all afire with anticipation...but shhhh!! Linda Ronstadt is singing
a
Torch song.
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: HI
|Date: 10 Apr 96 05:01:00
EID:623b 208a2820
MSGID: 1:116/19 04348754
AS>When they call him the "Father of his country" they mean it...literally.
KW> Far better that then the ones that played 'Queen for a night'.
They're the ones who ask you to kneel for them...a LOT.
... He who laughs, lasts.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 10 Apr 96 05:03:00
EID:c6fe 208a2860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04349BEA
AS>Yeah, my BBS thinks it will be fixed shortly with them going to a new
feed.
AS>Right now when I see a day when I don't get messages, I'm pulling a packet
AS>from the old BBS and cutting-and-pasting replies into the new BBS' packet,
AS>which is a pain, but better than nothing. So if I mispell anyone's name
or
AS>subject header, it's because I'm typing in THAT part by hand...
KW> Well, I hope that by now your problems have been straightened out.
Well, they were until today. But with this packet...nada at my main BBS.
So back to the cut-and-paste...
AS>I think I'm okay now. But it was truly a stressful couple of weeks
AS>there....yes, Brian has learned being a cool head in an emergency, because
AS>with two handicapped brothers, he has had to learn resilency and
AS>responsibility beyond his years.
AS> Now, if only he didn't want me to upload that Power Rangers web
AS>page...
KW> I'm sorry for the strain on Brian now, but what a valuable gift these
KW> things will be for him to have in the coming years. While the problems
KW> I grew up with were nothing on the scale of Brian's, I've often had
KW> cause to thank the fact that I had to learn young to think and act
KW> responsibly, because those around me couldn't or wouldn't.
KW> As for Power Rangers, remember, this too shall pass. My
KW> little is in the Barney\Lamb Chop stage, with dips into that frog on
KW> Gullah Gullah Island.
He did upload it, and it's now at
http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/power.html. Or you can look at the
link from mine at (same address) index.html. Now he wants to add a
Goosebumps page...and he's writing the html himself, on all his pages...
Oh, and he's ten today (April 10th.). But he had his birthday party
(at Putt-Putt Golf) Saturday.
... I haven't killed anyone in... what time is it, anyway?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 10 Apr 96 05:01:00
EID:1816 208a2820
MSGID: 1:116/19 0434A388
AS>AS> Well..uh...it's an interesting description...(?)
AS>AS> However, my WIFE doesn't find me "inert"...
AS>KW> Who's 'Ert'?
AS> That's what my wife wanted to know...
KW> Well, dear, you're safe as long as Barb doesn't actually catch you 'in'.
KW> I do wonder if Ert is related to the famed 'lerts'.
Well, I didn't want to rake up painful memories, but Ert was actually my
FIRST love, and we had several illigitimate children. We loved each other
so much that we gave them a name which was both our names together for all
of them, and then gave them nicknames to distinguish them...First Alert,
Red Alert, Pun Alert...
... It's not the size of the wand, but the Magick in it!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 10 Apr 96 05:06:00
EID:bc19 208a28c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0434A982
AS> Although guerilla movements, with simple weapons, can overthrow even
AS> goverments these days...
DC> It depends on how well their current gvt is organized and the
DC> popular support that a gvt may still have. Even if everything
DC> is against the gvt, the gvt still has an advantage if it has the
DC> loyal support of the military or outside help.
For sure. But it CAN be done, if one is persistent and/or crazy enough.
DC> BTW, know of a surplus M-60A tank for sale? ;)
AS> Sure. Didn't you KNOW? I'M the one who drove the tank through the
AS> Waco compound that whatsisname Parker keeps talking about here.
DC> Don't be surprised if he sends you a message arresting you!
I'm so utterly BORED by that guy I can scream! I don't twit him, but I do
hit the "enter" key when I read the first sentence or two.
... No one could pin anything on Lady Godiva.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: FALSE PROPHETS
|Date: 10 Apr 96 05:09:00
EID:33dc 208a2920
MSGID: 1:116/19 0434B59E
SR>*burp*. Ah...that was good soda. So tell us, fundy. Does
SR>this mean we do not have to pay our taxes this year? Please
SR>say yes.
MC> I didn't know kikes paid taxes?
I take it you mean by that epithet Jews? They do indeed, to help pay for
the police force to protect minorities like the Jews from mean-spirited,
stupid bigots like yourself who might threaten them with violence.
... Insanity runs in my family; it practically gallops...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Matthew Travers
|Sub: FALSE PROPHETS
|Date: 10 Apr 96 05:02:00
EID:af58 208a2840
MSGID: 1:116/19 0434BABC
MT> Are all Zionists stooges? My great-grandfather saw his 1st wife and
MT> children killed in a Nazi deathcamp. He escaped and ended up in
MT> Yugoslavia, where he found that the rest of the world didn't like Jews
MT> very much either. He had a Ph.D in Physics from a German University
and
MT> was an accomplished teacher and lecturer, but that didn't seem to help
MT> him. Virtually everyone he met was not interested in helping Jews.
in
MT> his desperation, he even approached the Catholic Church. he was told
MT> that even if he converted, they could not help him. he was supporting
MT> himself by teaching English, and one of his students was an Evangelical
MT> Christian. This Christian and his church helped Great-Grandpa when
no
MT> one else would. All I can say about Zionist Stooges like Hal Lindsey,
MT> is that there should be more people like them walking around, in my
MT> opinion. They helped our family, with no conditions, and we will always
MT> remember that.
Stick around, Matt. Not only do we have a braindead bigot in Craig, but
there's a guy called Anthony Grigor-Scott who logs into here who thinks
the Holocaust "never happened". More articulate than Craig, and thinks
he's a man of God. I think a conversation between you two could be
QUITE interesting. (I'm a Christian, and of course I know the Holocaust
happened.)
... "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:d667 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdb82
In a message dated 04-06-96 Michael Hardy wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> > Isaiah 17:1 prophesied that Damascus "is about to be removed as a c
> > and it will become a fallen ruin." Today, as one of the oldest citi
> > the world, Damascus is the ONLY city in Palestine that has never be
> > destroyed.
>
> Sadly, Isaiah was right and you are wrong. In 732 BC,
> Damascus was conquered by the Assyrians, under Tiglath-Pileser III.
>
> Let's look at what Isaiah actually said (as opposed to your loose
> paraphrase):
Loose paraphrase?
Isaiah 17:1 An oracle concerning Damascus, Behold Damascus will cease to
be a city, and will become a heap of ruins.
:2 Her cities will be deserted for ever;...
> 14 But now the LORD says: "Within three years, as a servant bound by
> contract would count them, Moab's splendor and all her many people wi
> be despised, and her survivors will be very few and feeble. ... See,
> Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins."
I'm not sure what verse you are quoting here but it sure isn't Isaiah
17:14
> The invasion by the Assyrians fits Isaiah's time frame perfectly. The
> fact that Damascus was later rebuilt does not detract from the accura
> of the prophecy, as Isaiah said nothing about its *permanent*
> destruction.
>
I suggest you look it up. Damascus wasn't destroyed and rebuilt.
> > Joshua 19:2-6 reports Simeon as inheriting "13" cities (and their
> > villages) and names them - all 14.
>
> Sorry, you're the one in need of an abacus. Here's what Joshua 19:2-6
> says:
>
> 2 It included: Beersheba (or Sheba), Moladah,
> 3 Hazar Shual, Balah, Ezem,
> 4 Eltolad, Bethul, Hormah,
> 5 Ziklag, Beth Marcaboth, Hazar Susah,
> 6 Beth Lebaoth and Sharuhen--thirteen towns and their villages;
>
> Want to see it itemized?
>
> 1. Beersheba (a.k.a. Sheba)
> 2. Moladah
> 3. Hazar Shual
> 4. Balah
> 5. Ezem
> 6. Eltolad
> 7. Bethul
> 8. Hormah
> 9. Ziklag
> 10. Beth Marcaboth
> 11. Hazar Susah
> 12. Beth Labaoth
> 13. Sharuhen
As I said in an earlier post, Beersheba and Sheba were two different
cities. BUT, since in one of my Bibles I find it in parenthesis, I'll let
you have that one. The other example isn't so easy to dismiss:
> > Apparently Joshua can't count since he does the same thing in namin
> > "14" cities of the lowland Judah - and lists 15. (Joshua 15:33-36)
>
> Again, you are wrong, not Joshua. Here's the passage:
>
> 33 In the western foothills: Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah,
> 34 Zanoah, En Gannim, Tappuah, Enam,
> 35 Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah,
> 36 Shaaraim, Adithaim and Gederah (or Gederothaim) --fourteen towns a
> their villages.
>
> Itemized:
>
> 1. Eshtaol
> 2. Zorah
> 3. Ashnah
> 4. Zanoah
> 5. En Gannim
> 6. Tappuah
> 7. Enam
> 8. Jarmuth
> 9. Adullam
> 10. Socoh
> 11. Azekah
> 12. Shaaraim
> 13. Adithaim
> 14. Gederah (or Gederothaim)
>
So sorry but in the same Bible (Gideon) that has Sheba in parenthesis
lists Gederothaim as a separate city. Nice try though.
> I seriously doubt you've been combing the Bible, counting lists of
> names looking for discrepancies. Most likely you got this out of some
> tract and didn't bother to check it out.
As you can see, I have checked it out. True, I didn't check all the
various versions of the Bible to see if the discrepancies have been
"corrected." But I think that is your job, not mine.
> Embarrassed?
Actually, Mike, unlike you, apparently, I am capable of embarrassment. It
just wasn't necessary in this case.
---
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: twit forwards
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:a863 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdb8a
In a message dated 04-07-96 Michael Hardy wrote to Al Schroeder:
> I respect that. The drawback, though, is it allows her to badmouth me
> without allowing me any opportunity to respond to my accuser. I can
> respond to the echo in general and hope she sees it, but I have no wa
> to get it to her directly.
Rather hypocritical, me thinks, coming from someone who "twits" - and
threatens to "twit" - as often as you do.
---
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: Rob's various replies
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:c00b 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdb95
In a message dated 04-07-96 Michael Hardy wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> > EF> -----
> > EF> Looks like somebody has been drinking their Squelch's Grape Ju
> > EF> Three for three, to the point, and devastating. Well done old
> >
> > Not so fast, hoss. Let's look in detail.
> >
> > LB> For example, 4 years ago I broke a bone in my foot.
> > LB> It was x-rayed and no less than three doctors stated
> > LB> it was broken. Yet three days later another x-ray
> > LB> was taken and there was no brake or even bruising.
> > LB> Now, x-rays and doctor reports exist on this, but it
> > LB> is again hard to believe.
> >
> > RB> It's hard to believe God would bother mending your
> > RB> broken foot while millions of children go starving.
> >
> > More to the point, atheists are constantly demanding evidence.
>
> EF> Hahahahahaha! Yes, how indescribably rude! Demand evidence?
>
> Don't change the subject. As I said:
Mike, simply because you throw out a red herring and say it is "more to
the point" does not change the subject. Why didn't YOU address the
original point?
>
> MH> Yet here, offered someone's personal testimony -- not "a friend
> MH> of a friend" -- Rob declines the opportunity to investigate it
> MH> and simply dismisses it.
>
> EF> Investigate it? Hey, if it happened like he said, he should be
> EF> offering some - no a lot of - verifiable evidence. FYI personal
> EF> testimony about miracles by a true believer is hardly evidence.
Why it looks like I was addressing your point - red herring that it was.
>
> Nor did I say it was, as you have admitted were you honest.
Whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. But just for the record, if you
were honest you would admit that I never said you said these things - nor
did I imply that you did. This is a old sophistical dodge -claiming you
"never said" something when you were never so accused. It also is a form
or red herring.
I said it
> is an opportunity for the atheist to examine some evidence, which you
> correctly note should be abundant.
Where is it then? You implied that it was the atheist's responsibility to
investigate this, when this claimant offered no verifiable evidence for
his extraordinary claim.
>
> EF> Here
> EF> Mike, I'll show you:
> EF> The entire Roman Senate declared they witnessed Caesar Augustus a
> EF> to heaven. Eye witnesses, Mike. Now either investigate it or ac
> EF> it as literally happening. This is apparently what you expect fr
> EF> science to the claims of you are yours.
>
> No, I was speaking specifically of the claim of the healed foot.
Well I was giving you an opportunity to show us how to go about such
things - as you seem to think we should. Now please do so. BTW was
Suetonius part of your study that convinced you of the reality of Jesus?
He also claims that Augustus rose to heaven.
Ther
> should be ample evidence of this; x-rays, doctor's testimonies, etc.
Well let's see it! Cite something that I can verify on my own without
having to take your - or your miracle boy's - word.
>
> EF> And why should Rob investigate it? He isn't making the claim. Why
> EF> don't you investigate it? If you do not, then please explain why
> EF> anyone else should have any more interest than you do
>
> I'm not challenging it. I doubt the story is true,
Saying you doubt the story is true isn't challenging it?
but I'm not the
> one demanding evidence for God's existence.
No, you are the one demanding that your god's existence be treated as a
literal fact. You do this by supporting laws establishing your religious
dogma over the rest of us. It is your claims and actions that demand
evidence for your god.
Rob, OTOH, says "Give me
> evidence," then avoids an opportunity to see some.
What opportunity? How did he avoid it? What evidence? Where?
>
> > RB> If our reason is suspect concerning things mundane,
> > RB> then wouldn't it be even less reliable concerning
> > RB> things extraordinary?
> >
> > Here Rob argues against Al's conclusion, but ignores the condition
> > which necessarily accompany it. If the mind is a product of natura
> > forces, Al argues, it can't be trusted to reason correctly. If we
> > to trust our reason, we should consider it the product of intellig
> > design.
>
> EF> ::sigh:: Have you ever considered how hypocritical it is to tout
> EF> called "evidence" for your dogma, when the truth or falsity of t
> EF> "evidence" doesn't concern you - doesn't impact on your beliefs
> EF> - one way or the other?
>
> I'm not talking about evidence; I'm talking about philosophical
> assumptions.
So am I.
>
> EF> Here is something I have discovered over the years, in my experie
> EF> confronting hundreds of theistic anti-evolutionists. Maybe I alre
> EF> related it to you. That discovery is: it is absolutely mandatory
> EF> the creationist, if he wants to debate evolution, to MIS-STATE t
> EF> views, arguments, evidence, etc of science and evolution. I am n
> EF> for absolutist type statements but here is another one: If the
> EF> creationist does not do this, it is _impossible_ for him to deba
> EF> issue. He will be FORCED to agree with the evilutionists, in spi
> EF> himself.
>
> It also has nothing to do with evolution. The key word is
> "accidental." A theistic evolutionist would argue that the the mind i
> the product of evolution, but a guided evolution, not purposeless,
> natural evolution.
Now who is changing the subject?
> >
> > AS> Why is believing in a Resurrection intellectually
> > AS> dishonest? I have never said DISBELIEVING in one is
> > AS> intellectually dishonest. If there is a Designer of
> > AS> the laws of nature, why can He not set them aside at
> > AS> will.
> >
> >
> > RB> There is no other comparable historical event that
> > RB> you would accept so readily. The event is
> > RB> irrevocably connected to your chosen beliefs.
> > RB> Therefore, THIS incredible tale is reasonable.
> >
> > Al has consistently supported his belief in the resurrection with
> > reasons he finds it plausible. As have I, and as have others. I th
> > Al would join me in saying that if the earliest claim of Jesus's
> > resurrection came from 800 years after his death, we'd happily cou
> > in with other myths as just a fanciful fable.
>
> EF> Why don't you address Rob's point? Ignoring it won't make it go a
> EF> Do you ignore it because there IS no other comparable historical
> EF> that you would accept so readily?
>
> There is no comparable historical event, period.
Baloney. Any claim of supernatural occurance is comparable in this
context.
>
> > know in my case, my belief that Jesus returned from the dead comes
> > second, AFTER the arguments. I did not first decide that I believe
> > and then search for arguments that supported the belief.
>
> EF> From your description, you did, in fact do that. You decided to b
> EF> willing to believe then read the partisan propaganda supporting
> EF> position. Note:
>
> EF> I first
> > decided that I would be WILLING to believe it if it were sufficien
> > supported by evidence. I found it to be so. I would not have belie
> > it, even though willing, if the evidence were not there.
>
> But I studied arguments on both sides of the issue, NOT just the
> "partsan propaganda." In fact, I studied the whole matter in
> considerable detail for eight solid years.
Well then you must be quite well versed in the counter arguments. Who's
impressed you the most and what were the arguments?
>
> EF> I am quite familiar with the tricks we humans used to convince ot
> EF> as well as ourselves of the truth of what we already wish to bel
>
> EF> As for your being persuaded, let me guess:
>
> EF> You were already a Christian - or close to it at the time.
>
> No, I was an atheist at the time.
I find that difficult to believe. Did you consider, objectively, the many
contradictions in the Bible? I realize now, that as a believer, you are
inclined toward - and can find - ad hoc excuses for them. But looking at
them objectively I doubt that you could.
What evidence did you find that a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush
spoke to humans? What evidence that language variations resulted from the
tower of Babel; that Moses had a magic wand; that the Nile turned to
blood; that a stick turned into a snake; that witches and wizards with
magical powers exist; that food rained from the sky for 40 years; that the
sun stood still to help Joshua win a battle, and went BACKWARD for King
Hezekiah? Do you now agree that mental illness is caused by demons? Did
you find evidence that people were healed by Peter's shadow?
Did you consider the cruelity of your old testament god, his pettiness,
his unfairness in killing innocents - ie those innocent of the "crimes"
the punishment was supposedly the result of? Punishment to the 4th
generation?
> EF> If beforehand you had to choose which eventuality you would prefe
> EF> be true, you would have opted for the story being true.
>
> In some ways, yes, in some ways no.
>
> EF> You never seriously considered skeptical works that make precisel
> EF> opposite case, but rather stuck to tomes that were Resurrection
> EF> friendly.
>
> Absolutely wrong. I made a deliberate point of examining arguments th
> attacked Christianity. I probably read more against than I did in
> favor.
For instance?
>
> EF> You set no criteria prior to examination of the evidence, regardi
> EF> what amount or kind of evidence would be necessary to convince y
> EF> or any justification for that particular amount being sufficient
>
> That's true, because I never gave myself any deadlines. I set out to
> examine the issue indefinitely and just see what there was in favor a
> against. (I also read apologetics for other belief systems, to see ho
> their cases compared.)
Oh, ok. How did you determine they were incorrect? What evidence, for
instance, did you find that Buddha wasn't born speaking - as claimed?
> EF> Slapping on a thin veneer of pseudo-objectivity to your decision
> EF> "believe" doesn't disguise the fact of your current completely cl
> EF> mind on the subject.
>
> To the extent that my mind is closed, it is so only because eight yea
> of investigation followed by six years of practice have answered many
> of my questions to my satisfaction. However, I am not so closed that
> wouldn't change my mind, if given sufficient reason to do so.
Your evidence of Jesus rising from the dead amounts to "I can see no other
plausible explanation" (for the alleged actions of the witnesses) which
is
an appeal to ignorance fallacy. It, in itself, is not evidence. It is, at
best, a lack of evidence (in your eyes) for other explanations.
You had to first accept as your premise the truthful discriptions of the
actions of those witnesses as written in the Bible. You also had to ignore
the other evidence weighing against that premise (the Bible as an accurate
depiction of events) you say you studied.
>
> EF> Rather it makes your claim all the more suspect.
> EF> One doesn't objectively investigate something, weigh the evidenc
> EF> base his conclusion on that evidence - and then suddenly turn in
> EF> Dogma-man, able to leap tall tales with a single leap of faith -
> EF> counter-evidence ricocheting off your brain like bugs off a Grey
> EF> Bus windshield.
>
> Fourteen years is hardly "suddenly."
What I said was one does not typically investigate an issue in an
objective fashion and then become convinced and close his mind to any
additional data to the contrary, as you have.
And your depiction of my attitud
> is not terribly accurate.
Sorry Mike, I can only go by what you say here in this forum. I can recall
only once where anything pointed out to you gave you pause - and even in
that case:the slaughter in Numbers - you speculated that your god must
have had a reason that absolved him of cruelity in the murderous act he
ordered.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: 2 Re: A FAIR & JUST G
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:4da0 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdb9e
In a message dated 04-08-96 Al Schroeder wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> EF> But regarding your statement: given the Biblical God, were I offe
> EF> chance to "repent" (for what? barf) after death, I'd be too pisse
> EF> at god to submit in any such way. Contempt is too mild a word fo
> EF> I'd feel at that point. I'd take hell any millennia before I'd c
> EF> to live with that despicable, misanthropic, berserker of a God t
> EF> Moses "knew." Sorry, that's just the way I feel.
>
> Well, that's your right. But perhaps your time could be better spent
How is my time ill-spent now?
> asking Him WHY it has to be that way.
Al, he hasn't told you why, or if he has you haven't shared it with us.
I
am talking about his alleged actions in the old testament. Any God capable
of such evil behavior ("evil" by any sane standard I can think of) I
wouldn't want any part of. The only excuse believers can offer is: "God
can do whatever he wants and if he does it, it is moral - by definition."
This is situational ethics of the first order. If your God does it, or
tells you to do it, it is moral. I don't buy it for an instant.
> You might be surprised at the
> answer. I know you don't think it will ever happen. I counsel you to
> your mind open.
I used to be a believer, Al. As for my mind, it is quite open. All it
takes is evidence sufficient to support a given claim for me to accept it.
Whether it is convenient for me, or whether I want to accept it or not.
EF> I think the scenario is one where you are given a chance to repent
EF> shortly after death, not some kind of open-ended offer.
> Oh.
> In other words...you want a scenario where one must make a final deci
> and then abide by it.
No, I don't "want" such a scenario. I was simply asking why not?
> I hate to be logical, but isn't that we have ALREADY? But that point
> before death.
Frankly, no. Not for the majority of people.
> What in the WORLD is the DIFFERENCE, Elliot? You still have to make
> final decision. And you will still have some people gripe that they
> haven't been given enough time afterwards.
The difference is that many people haven't been given this opportunity and
they presumably will burn in hell anyway.
> The only difference is, if you do it AFTER death, you have people s
> into repentence.
Pardon me but Christians constantly try to scare non-believers (and
back-sliding believers) into repentence.
>..not because of some hypothetical God that MIGHT dam
> them,
Oh, so to you, your god is only a maybe?
> but because they are facing the harsh reality. Their obedience
> the obedience of a person facing a horrible choice, and acting out of
> self-preservation.
No. The difference is that, in your case, you already believe you are
"facing the harsh reality" and are "acting out of self-preservation" now.
Your motive is no different. You wouldn't act in what you see as God's
desire if you didn't believe now. So what is so venal about someone
behaving as you do now - once that person knows the "truth," after death,
lets say.
> It is the obedience of a mugger's victim. That is an
> analogy that is made often here,
I haven't seen it but it is apt.
> but in the living world, no gun is
> shown..
Oh really? You don't really believe in heaven and hell? You are just
playing the odds? I thought your god was real to you. I thought there was
no doubt in your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either you accept as
real the existance of hell or you do not. If you do then you act under the
same duress as someone convinced of its reality after death.
> you're not even sure there IS a mugger, as it were.
I'm not but YOU are.
> So whatev
> choice you make is your own...unforced...moral choice.
If you believe the Bible, your choices are as forced as anyone convinced
after death. And I take issue with your use of the word "moral choice."
> EF> I just thought of something. Is it your contention that free will
> EF> at the Pearly Gates? Or _is_ sin possible there? If not, if you
> EF> somehow become perfect once there, how does this avoid the same
> EF> criticism you applied to my hypothetical (of God not creating th
> EF> future "non-saved")?
>
> No, one can sin in Heaven. How can I be so sure? Well, given the Bibl
> frame...where was Satan when he fell? Where was war waged between the
> angels? But I think a group who have gone through all that sin and ev
> has to offer and rejected it would be a lot less likely to. The burne
> hand teaches best. Especially if they have a good Guide and Teacher.
Didn't answer my question. How then does this avoid the same
criticism you applied to my hypothetical (of God not creating the
future "non-saved")?
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler: Christ
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:4418 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdba7
In a message dated 04-08-96 DAVID RICE wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>FR> Adolf Hitler was no different than the thousands of
>FR> tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him
EF> True, with one exception: Hitler wasn't a Christian.
>Historians, of course, know otherwise: Hitler was a Christian.
>He stated so many, many times.
Really? Which historians? Do you have a reference or two I can look up?
I
am curious how they deal with the following:
The nazis planned to destroy Christianity in Germany, and started taking
over churches to that end, forming the "National Reich Church."
Some of it's 30 point program - and what made Hitler a non-Christian:
"To exterminate irrevocably .... the strange and foreign Christian faiths
imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800"
"The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains, or priests"
"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and
dissemination of the Bible in Germany"
"The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes,
Bibles, and pictures of saints"
"On the day of its (the National Reich Churches) foundation, the
Christian cross must be removed from all churches, cathedral, and chapels
and must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika"
Source: Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York:
Touchstone, 1959. p.240
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:35d1 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdbb0
In a message dated 04-08-96 Michael Hardy wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> EF> Other than that you may have a point. I'll have to think about it
>
> Please do.
>
Spoken with all the graciousness and good will I have come to expect from
one with god's love in their heart. Still thinking about it, Mike. But
don't worry, I would never expect the same from you.
---
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Not about Tithe
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:7db4 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdbb9
In a message dated 04-08-96 Katherine Wintersnight wrote to ELLIOTT
FINESSE:
>
> EF>Whether or not you were discussing "charities" (even though you nev
> EF>"specifically" used the words charity, charities, etc in your post,
> EF>the _SUBJECT_ header says "tithe") has nothing to do with the quest
> EF>asked you - the one you were unable or unwilling to answer.
>
> Subject headers rarely have any relevance after the first
> couple of exchanges here, Elliot.
I'll just chock it up to laziness then.
> You need to go sit over in the corn
> with Masochistic Maiden if you want to moan about non current subject
> headers.
Gosh, pointing out that your message header had nothing to do with your
little message is "moaning" about it? Here is a clue that you seem badly
in need of: stealing Limbaugh's technique of argument by buzz word is as
transparent as it is lame.
>
> EF>Anyway since you accuse me of intentionally altering the meaning of
> EF>words by removing them from their context (oh and spare me from the
> EF>that you didn't "specifically" say this. If that isn't what you mea
> EF>state *precisely* what you did mean) it seems appropriate to compar
> EF>you said against what I quoted:
>
> I'm not going to, little men,
Please, try to focus on the matter at hand and quit day-dreaming about the
physical attributes of your male friends.
although I didn't intend to give you
> credit for intentionally altering the context. I thought you had done
> it from habitually sloppy thinking habits.
Look, sweetie, I realize that from your perspective it is difficult to
imagine otherwise, but not everyone is cursed with the mental problems you
must continually wrestle with.
>
> EF>KW> Saying that their priorities are one thing, then acting in a
> totally EF> KW> different manner ...
>
> EF>You have yet to demonstrate that anyone has acted in a manner "tota
> EF>different" from their stated priorities. A case could easily be mad
> EF>"they" act in a manner "totally different" to some key Biblical tea
> EF>but that isn't what you claim here, is it?
>
> EF> KW> ...makes them fair game in my book.
>
> EF>Perhaps, but why didn't you answer my question then? Here it is aga
>
> EF>EF>What are you saying here? That people have a
> EF>EF>right to decide what another groups priorities are?
>
> EF>Is that what you mean by fair game?
>
> (yawn) Okay, little boy.
Oooooooo! What brilliant repartee! I bet you knock 'em dead at recess with
such rejoinders.
>Let's try this one more time.
Try it as many times as it takes you to get it straight, dear. I'll wait.
> Try to understand the words as written. Try hard.
Good advice. I commend you for being aware of your inability to convey an
intelligible thought. It is a step in the right direction.
>
> Now, here is the entire exchange between Richard and myself that got y
> so ruffled:
Sorry, darlin', you are the one with your jockey shorts in a bunch.
Personally I think it's funny as hell.
> *************************************
> RM>KW>RM>KW>tell me 'god' unless you are willing to offer evidence tha
> RM>KW>RM>KW>physically translated to heaven straight from the alter.
> RM>KW>
> RM>KW>RM>Actually it's from the ushers room.... <
> RM>KW>
> RM>KW>Okay. I suppose heaven can be found in the preacher's pockets.
>
> RM>Which Preacher's Katherine? yes, certainly the TV preachers,,, they
> RM>lots of money but from my observation, very few preachers make a l
> RM>money. Usually it's the ones that are on TV who are bilking people
> their
> RM>money. I know there are others but sooner or later they make it to
> TV...<
> RM>I think it's the TV that's Evil.... *grin*.
>
> So if you got rid of TV you would get rid of the evil? I don't think
> so, Richard. The church (under whatever name) has been enriching itse
> all along. Take a look at the cathedrals of Europe. At the local
> churches rearing their beautiful rooflines proud against the sky. The
> look at the homeless and mentally ill huddled under the overpasses (di
> you know that once bishops had a terrible time with the unsightly poor
> sheltering between the buttresses of cathedrals?). That's not TV,
> Richard, that's real life. Find out how much your preachers robes and
> suit cost, what the price of the choir stalls was, the printers bill f
> the programs...
>
> Then find out how many hungry children that exercise in pride would
> have fed. If you belong to one of the really fancy denominations, thi
> will horrify you. Do you have any idea how much a silver chalice to
> serve up your god's blood costs?
> ***************************************
I've not only seen this I quoted it back to you. Try to keep up with the
thread if you wish to participate here, ok?
>
> Now, as will be obvious to a person of average reading skills,
The reason, no doubt, you are having so much trouble.
the money
> under question was that given to God. Richard than made a comment
> concerning TV preachers (are you still following this, Elliot, or do I
> need to simplify it farther?).
Not everyone here appreciates simplicity for its own sake. But if it helps
you express your views, then go right ahead.
> I then introduced the variation on the theme of the money's collected
> for God being used to bolster man's pride. This is supposedly a big n
> no where xtians are concerned. Did you know that, Elliot?
Try to comprehend what I said, dear. First, "the money's collected for God
being used to bolster man's pride" is your unsupported take on the
situation. Saying things for which one offers no evidence, and expecting
it to be taken as truth is a fundy trait. One which you seem particularly
well versed in. Second, I said, what's it to you if it were true? Let the
givers of the money complain - or stop giving if they don't like it.
>
> EF> KW> Selectivity editing EF>KW> my post to give yourself a target
>
> EF> Selectivity editing? Target? Hahahahaha. Sorry my simple question
> EF>so flustered (too flustered even to answer it). However please re-r
> (Continued to next message)
Oh dear! No next message! And why would you need to continue this short
message anyway? I have never seen this before! Even with messages 2 or 3
times as long as yours. I bet it is that doggone Fido, huh. Sure thing.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:05d1 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdbc2
In a message dated 04-08-96 Al Schroeder wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> EF> But once you start off into uncharted definitional waters, unteth
> EF> from everyday experience, it becomes an exercise in counting ang
> EF> dancing on pin-heads. Either God is omniscient or he is not. Can
> EF> be a little bit pregnant? I suppose, if he is God. But the conce
> EF> meaningless to me.
>
> I submit that in trying to think of a Being outside of Time and tryin
> give us some idea of His perceptions, encountering occasionally
> meaningless things is to be expected. But still, until we know for su
> whether God's foreknowledge is an absolute quality...like pregnancy..
> matter of degree, like strength...we may have to distrust simplistic
> answers.
Whatever. But if your god is all knowing then he knows all. By definition.
If that doesn't describe your god, fine.
> EF> Have you considered that, from your perspective, a totally-fixed
> EF> predetermined-without-deviation future would be no different from
> EF> that wasn't?
>
> Of course, in my day to day actions. But it makes an ENORMOUS differe
> in one's worldview, philosophy, and ultimate aim. One implies that
> individual effort makes a difference. The other that God predetermine
> your every step and it doesn't matter what you do, God's will be done
Not in my scenario. For your god to know the future doesn't mean he
predetermines it at all.
> And it makes a great deal of difference to me overall whether I fee
> am responsible for my actions or whether God is. Whether a damnation
> predetermined by God or not.
I don't know why you keep saying this. Knowing what someone will do in the
future isn't the same thing as predetermining what that person will do.
>
> EF> If God is omniscient then he had / has an opportunity to spare
> EF> whatever portion of humanity that is destined to hell. He does t
> EF> merely not creating those individuals in the first place. He cre
> EF> only those who he knows will freely choose to do those things th
> EF> will get them to heaven (whatever you say they are). It is, of c
> EF> no theological secret that many sinners are destined to heaven.
> EF> "saved" is a much better word for what I meant than what I used:
> EF> "those who freely choose not to sin." Does that make sense?
>
> Yes. But that it is a view, if I am understanding you, that God
> predetermines certain individuals to be saved and the rest damned.
Only insofar as they have freely decided to do or not do whatever your god
requires of them to get into heaven. God's foreknowledge of those actions
does not impact upon those actions at all.
> Oooohhh. That's a GOOD point. So the repentence thing would render th
> evil workers still saved in the end. VERY sneaky. Of course, that mig
> render one's outlook a little different, if they KNEW they were
> saved...and again, perhaps that would not give enough evil workers fo
> maximum number of good people to be saved
It would if they knew.
> EF> In other words, you grant them free will, but predete
> > that no one can deviate from God's will.
>
> EF> Other words? Yes, words other then mine. First, *I* grant them
> EF> nothing. Second, they have freely chosen to do whatever God requ
> EF> to get to heaven. Where is the lack of free will?
>
> Because they cannot deviate from it. They freely choose it...but only
> goals that God preselects. How is that different from God just going
> and arranging the wiring of the brain so they cannot make such choice
> The end result is exactly the same.
No. Let me put it this way. Does God remove the free will of those
destined for heaven now? If not, then how would it impinge on their free
will not to create those he knows are not destined for heaven? That's all
I am saying.
> Ahhh. But if I think about it, you still are not talking about free
> will. You are talking about "almost-free-will". God is predetermining
> those who exist will NEVER make the decision to curse God and die.
Again no. God doesn't decide what their actions will be - they do. The
reason they would make it to heaven is because they choose to do whatever
it takes. God's hand doesn't enter in to it.
> Limited
> will. I must admit "free" is one of those thigns that I tend to think
> in absolutes.
But not omniscience?
> EF> What's the point of creating us at all? So he could have the plea
> EF> of watching the majority burn in hell? Does he write the Bible s
> EF> can torment those going to hell with what awaits them?
>
> No. To warn them. To guide them. Is the Surgeon General warning on a
> of cigarettes a torment, or a warning? "God desires none to be lost..
Yet he creates those he knows will be "lost." That's my point.
> > Why?
> > Why create lesser mirror images of yourself? Why create beings
> > not deviate from your own will?
>
> EF> You're kidding, right? If the Bible could be summed up in one wor
> EF> the word would be OBEY! It seems obvious that is exactly what he
> EF> wants.
>
> Is it? David, called "a man after God's own heart" was surely less th
> perfect. The Bible isn't exactly renowned for having perfect people.
Didn't say perfect. Didn't say that he expected everyone TO obey all the
time. But to obey is certainly what he wants and demands in the Bible. To
the degree that people don't is what pisses him off.
Also, while I am here
> Why create lesser mirror images of yourself? Why create beings who
> not deviate from your own will?
This is what I referred to in another post regarding your belief that
there is no sin in heaven. It seems to me the above is an argument against
this.
> EF> If you want to argue the omniscience of God we can. But please: no
> EF> limited omniscience. And I promise no "rock too heavy for him to
> EF> questions.
>
> That's okay. I can answer that. Marty and I have gone a few rounds
> that one. That God can do anything but the logically impossible...i.e
> make a world of round squares, or married bachelors. God's omnipotenc
> not limited by man's ability to utter nonsense, and the phrase "somet
> too heavy for an omnipotent being to lift" is a logical contradiction
> essentially meaningless if you render it in terms of symbolic logic.
> the answer is no.
But limited omniscience is also a logical impossibility: all knowing = not
all knowing. A = not A.
> > And it must be literal...it must be used
> > Even though it allows one to also deviate from God's moral code.
>
> EF> Fine with me. It alters my scenario not a micron.
>
> Only since you explained it included those who repented after committ
> evil. Even so, you have EFFECTIVELY eliminated choosing to reject God
> forever and ever and not repenting of it while alive. That's not "fre
> will". That's "limited will".
Again no. Let's say Al is going to heaven. God knows this. Let's say
Elliott isn't. God knows this as well. How would not creating me in the
first place rob you of your free will?
> > Simply that you seem to think omniscience must be absolute. I am
> > sure. Or rather, I am not sure that God is omniscient as YOU woul
> > understand the term.
>
> EF> The term means what it means. If you wish to re-define it, that i
> EF> another conversation. I am sorry if your conception of God doesn
> EF> the term. But that is more of a problem between you and Webster.
>
> No; it is a problem of you applying a term to an Entity that is neith
> explicit claim for the entity (i.e., the omniscience never applied to
> int the Scriptures)
Nowhere it says God is all-knowing?
> > If you will. (Shrug.) There is no verse that says God is omniscie
>
> EF> For Pete's sake! You keep saying "no verse" says this or that. Th
> EF> Bible doesn't say original sin or trinity or Christian or morali
> EF> fairness or Golden Rule, or The Lord's Prayer, or a million othe
> EF> things you take for granted. But when it is something confoundin
> EF> suddenly we need a single, literal, word or by golly it tain't t
> EF> Look, if you want to argue God's omniscience we can. But make up
> EF> mind! Is he or isn't he?
>
> THAT IS THE TOPIC UNDER DISCUSSION...whether God's "omniscience" incl
> complete foreknowledge of all events without exception. If you want t
> for simplistic definitions, that's fine, but be prepared to find the
> is far more subtle.
(If my response here is redundant to what you have already replied to up
to this point, - please feel free to ignore it.)
What is simplistic about the definition? Is the definition of "square"
also simplistic when it means your god cannot create a round one?
> EF> Except that isn't what the passages (James 2:20,24,26 and others)
>
> AS> On the contrary. That is precisely the point of
> AS> "Faith without works is dead," which is in those
> AS> passages you quoted by James.
>
> EF> Really? If it is a natural consequence of faith then how could fa
> EF> BE WITHOUT works? Why is he saying this if one flows naturally f
> EF> the other? Clearly one does not, and explains the multiple
> EF> admonishment. He's not making conversation, "Oh by the way, Fait
> EF> without works is dead." He's is saying what must be done in no
> EF> uncertain terms.
>
> Yes. Because otherwise it is an empty noise. That's the POINT. Faith
> without works is like someone saying they love someone but doing
> absolutely nothing about it...no caring for the other, no helping,
> standing by and letting them die. Faith without works is dead...or, i
> prefer, faith without works is not really faith. It's a mild statemen
> without substance. It's like crocodile tears.
>
My point was, if one naturally flowed from the other then why would he
stress the importance of it to the (considerable) degree that he did? The
reason seems obvious that he stressed it because one DIDN'T flow naturally
from the other. They had to be TOLD.
> AS> Then he would be saved, if he repented and asked for
> AS> forgiveness in Jesus' name. (Knowing his character,
> AS> it's not anything that happened. But given your
> AS> hypothetical, that would happen.)
>
> EF> Boy that's something to think about isn't it? Ghandi in Hell. Hit
> EF> in Heaven.
>
> Nope. Gandhi qualifies (my opinion only) under the provision in Roman
> where a pagan's conscience is their advocate before God.
Really? Even though he considered and rejected Christanity?
> EF> You equate evil with non-repentance. I have commited no evil and
> EF> in the Biblical scenario I would be required to "repent" to scor
> EF> heavenly billet.
>
> Read Romans and get back to me. Romans 2:13-15. It isn't stressed,
> unfortunately, from the pulpit. It should be.
Good quote.
---
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: Genesis problems [1/4
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:bc38 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdbcc
In a message dated 04-08-96 Sue Armstrong wrote to Jerry Gilbreath:
> This is a collection of files I keep around as a challenge to
> Flood-believing fundies like yourself. Please read these, under
> the heading "Genesis problems" and "Noah's Impossible Ark" very,
> very carefully and attempt to answer all points to the best of your
> ability.
Wow. I've got a lot of this but your files are more complete. Do you
remember where you got them? I'm just curious cuz mine, even though word
for word in places, don't have all the attributions yours have. Anyway
thanks, my files have now been updated.
---
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Moon Dust BS
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:908e 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdbd5
In a message dated 04-08-96 Jerry Gilbreath wrote to David Worrell:
> Another method is the accumulation of meteoric dust. Remember the big
> pods on the legs of the first lunar lander? They found that there was
> NOT millions of years of dust accumulation on the moon as was once
> thought.
Here's the standard reply (text originally by Chris Stassen):
This argument in more detail: A single measurement of the rate of
meteoritic dust influx to the earth gave a value in the millions of tons
per year. While this is negligible compared to the processes of erosion
on
the earth (a shoebox-full per acre per year), there are no such processes
on the moon. The moon must receive a similar amount of dust (perhaps 25%
as much per unit surface area due to its lesser gravity), and there should
be a very large dust layer if the moon is several billion years old.
This is the worst of the three. One could argue that ignorance or
incompetence led Morris to use other the two arguments above (both of
which were pushed by other creationists, and may have been used too
trustingly). Unfortunately, it is difficult to be charitable on this
count. Morris says, regarding the dust influx rate:
"The best measurements have been made by Hans Pettersson,
-----------------
who obtained the figure of 14 million tons per year (1)."
[5]
Pettersson stood on a mountain top and collected dust there with a device
intended for measuring smog levels. He published calculations which
measured the amount of nickel he collected, _assumed_ that nickel was only
present in meteoritic dust, and _assumed_ that some percentage of
meteoritic dust was nickel, to get his final figures (that first
assumption was wrong and caused his published figures to be a vast
overestimate).
Pettersson's calculation resulted in the a figure of about 15 million tons
per year. He believed that estimate to be an over-estimate, ("a
generous upper limit") and indicated in the paper that 5 million tons per
year was a much more likely figure.
Much more accurate measurements were available, from satellite penetration
data (no possibility of earthly contamination), by the time Morris
published _Scientific Creationism_. These more accurate measurements give
the value of about 18,000 to 25,000 tons per year (the rate has not been
constant over time). These measurements agree with levels of meteoritic
dust levels trapped in sediments on earth. (That is, they are verified by
an independent cross-check.)
Morris chooses to pick obsolete data with known problems, and call it the
"best" measurement available. His calculations are based on a figure that
is nearly two orders of magnitude too high. With the proper values, the
expected depth of meteoritic dust on the moon is less than one foot.
Msg # : 763 ORIGINS conference
[1] Henry Morris, _Scientific Creationism_; San Diego: CLP Publishers,
1974 (mine is the 1981 printing). p. 151.
[2] G. Brent Dalrymple, "How Old is the Earth? A Reply to 'Scientific
Creationism'", in _Proceedings of the 63rd Annual Meeting of the
Pacific Division, AAAS ("Evolutionists Confront Creationists")_,
Awbrey & Thwaites, Editors (1984: San Francisco; AAAS Pacific
Division). p. 112
[5] Morris, Ref. [1], p. 152
Morris' reference:
(1) Hans Pettersson, "Cosmic Spherules and Meteoritic Dust,"
_Scientific American_, Vol. 202 (February 1960), p. 132
For more information, see:
[6] Dalrymple, Ref. [2], pp. 108-111
[7] Strahler, Ref. [4], pp. 143-144
Here's an update, involving a very convenient typo in the 15th edition of
Morris: [Quoting 15th ed. (4/90) of Morris' _Scientific Creationism_
regarding meteoritic dust:] "...more recent measurements indicate a much
greater influx of dust than Pettersson calculated...see G.S. Hawkins, ed.,
_Meteor Orbits and Dust_ published by NASA, 1976...figures obtained by
actual measurement in space as listed in this publication, yield 200
million tons of dust coming to earth each year."
> Anybody got a copy of Hawkins or know where I can find one?
You're gonna love this... First, Morris has the date wrong. The paper is
from *1967*, not 1976. Second, like Pettersson's survey, this one has its
own problems. Third, the number "200 million" does not appear in the paper
that Morris references -- it has been "calculated" from values that appear
in the paper by an unnamed "creationist physicist" and those calculations
are completely wrong. It is hard to say whether this is an improvement
over simply mentioning Pettersson or not.
Thomas J. Wheeler wrote: [1]
[I use '**' to denote italics in the original -- CS]
"The first case arose in connection with my critique [See *C/E
N* 5(6)] of the second edition of *Scientific Creationism*
edited by Henry Morris [1985, Master Books]. Awbrey's and
Shore's critiques of Morris' cosmic dust infall arguments
appeared a year before Morris' 2nd edition, and one would
think that Morris would have modified his text accordingly;
but in his 2nd edition (on p. 152) he merely expanded his
footnote reference to Pettersson with the following:
[Wheeler produces the same text as I quoted from Ed Eck above]
Thus Morris gave a reference which not only appears more recent than
Dohnanyi [Icarus 17:1-48, which gives 23,000 tons per year from satellite
measurements -- CS], but also apparently gave a much higher value for the
influx of cosmic dust. When Lovell attempted to find this reference, he
found no such listing for 1976, but there *was* a publication of that
title in *1967*! I therefore wrote to Morris asking if it was possible
that "1976" in his book was a typographical error. In his response, Morris
admitted that it could be an error. He did not actually have the cited
publication but he said he would attempt to obtain it and would let me
know if there was a mistake in the date. Additionally, while a reader of
Morris' footnote might think that the value of 200 million tons appears
in
the reference, that value was actually calculated by an unnamed
"creationist physicist" whose calculations (which cited the same "1976"
reference) were provided to my by Morris. The general rule for preparing
published material is to verify literature citations by checking the
original references, but in this case Morris relied solely on unpublished
correspondence. I wrote to an astronomer friend, Dr. Larry W. Esposito of
the Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics, University of Colorado
at Boulder, and asked him to check the Hawkins reference and the
calculations provided by Morris. Esposito confirmed that the citation
[NASA Special Publications SP-135, *Smithsonian Contributions to
Astrophysics*, 11] was 1967, *not* 1976 as given by Morris, and that the
data were originally from McCracken *et al.* and presented at a 1965
symposium. Further, the calculations by the unnamed "creationist
physicist" were performed incorrectly, using a single-point measurement
rather than integrating over a range of masses, and they included an
inappropriate factor of 100 (which was a single, short-lived occurrence
of
flux enhancement). They also included a factor of 10^4, which is known
from more recent measurements to be unnecessary. McCracken's data were
gathered using a microphone, but according to Dohnanyi "microphone
detectors give false counts due to the solar wind." More reliable recent
measurements used penetration detectors. In his summary, Esposito wrote
``the work is incorrectly cited, outdated, from a non-referenced symposium
publication, based on unreliable data. The calculation multiplies together
unrelated numbers: the product of these factors is not a reliable
estimation of the current cosmic dust deposition rate.''"
[1] "Creation/Evolution Newsletter", Volume 7 Number 4, pp. 14-15
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Shrinking Sun BS
|Date: 11 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:6b52 208b70a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000fdbde
In a message dated 04-08-96 Jerry Gilbreath wrote to David Worrell:
> Another method takes into account the shrinking size of the sun.
>
From: CARL WILSON
To: JOHN ARTHUR
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 28142 (RE: EVOL-HOAX-10)
-=> Quoting John Arthur to All <=-
JA> 71. Since 1836, over one hundred different observers at the Royal
JA> Greenwich Observatory and U.S. Naval Observatory have made direct
JA> visual measurements which show that the diameter of the sun is
JA> SHRINKING at a rate of about .1% each century or about 5 feet per
JA> hour!
The "Shrinking Sun Theory" was taken from a book called "Our Turbulent
Sun", chapter 6 entitled, "The Shrinking Sun". I happen to have this
book right in front of me. Allow me to quote a few passages for you.
"So, incredibly, the sun seemed to be shrinking nearly 10 miles a
year, or nearly 6 feet per hour."
So far it agrees with you. Now here's the conclusion of the chapter.
The part you creationists "forgot" to mention in your search for "Truth".
"I feel now that we were probably wrong," he [Eddy] said of the inference
by him and Boornazian that the sun was TEMPORARILY shrinking at the rate
of 2 seconds of arc per century.
"The data looked like you could trust it, "Eddy recalls.
___----------------------------------------------------------------
All through the chapter it mentions that they considered the apparent
shrinkage as part of a cycle. Not once do they either say or imply
that they considered the apparent shrinkage as constant.
You'll also notice that your creationist sources left out the part at the
end where they said that they found out that their data was faulty in the
first place.
Quoting out of context is the same as lying. A strange tendency for those
that speak of great "Truths", is it not?
---
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|From: LAURA HODGKINS
|To: ALL
|Sub: angles
|Date: 11 Apr 96 18:44:08
EID:57a3 208b9580
MSGID: 1:322/746 5c9c7d3e
Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is possible to
have seen one's guardian angel?
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 09 Apr 96 00:46:00
EID:10ce aa00c9d0
MSGID: 1:206/2720 32007f3e
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895843B7
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> Which is a mockery of freedom. It means that our free
> will has meaning
> only if we make the right choices. If we don't, we
> are erased and never
> did exist. It's like allowing a "free election," but
> counting only
> votes for the candidate pre-selected to win.
Perhaps, but how is this different from the actual case? God chose who to
bring into existence anyway. In fact, he chose to bring a lot of sinners
into existence. If he would have been responsible for the right choices
of perfectly good free beings, had he chosen to create them instead, why
is he not responsible for the wrong choices of the sinners he did produce?
> It also ignores the Biblical precept that all people
> sin; even people
> who make many right choices still make some wrong
> ones, and God would
> have to erase everyone ever created under your
> scenario.
Do people sin in Heaven? Does God sin? If the answer to either question
is "no," then it would appear that free beings don't have to sin. We may
have an instance of a biblical contradiction here, shocking as that would
be.
However, I will grant that if this premise is true, if all people are trans-world
depraved (in Plantinga's wonderful phrase; why is it that Christians seem
so much more lewd than non-Christians?) then Utopia is impossible. That
does leave one critical question in my mind, though. Why exactly is free
will supposed to be so valuable? It inevitably leads to evil, on your own
argument. What's so great about it, to balance this? Try to keep the vagueness
in your answer to an absolute minimum, please.
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: evil
|Date: 10 Apr 96 01:01:00
EID:10ce aa012a10
MSGID: 1:206/2720 3280af74
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8959438F
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> AB> In that case, you owe a better account of free will, or indeed any
> AB> account at all. Absent that, you're right that we have nothing more
to
> AB> discuss.
> I don't know what you mean, "a better account of free
> will." Explain,
> please.
Let's take what's closest at hand as a starting point. For an unconnected
reason, I have a copy of David Hume's _Enquiries_ lying on top of my desk.
It contains a chapter "Of Liberty and Necessity." In said chapter, Hume,
almost certainly the most brilliant philosopher ever to write in English,
and with only a handful of rivals in any language, argues that free will
only makes sense if determinism is assumed. Free will theories claim that
people do what they do because they choose to, which is, Hume claims, as
much as to say that free actions are caused (by the individual's desires,
obviously).
Further, Hume notes that free actions are supposed to be particularly subject
to moral evaluation, which only makes sense if there is something about
the agent which gives rise to those actions. If choices were not brought
about by aspects of the agent's character, then it would be utterly obscure
why the agent should be considered blameworthy or praiseworthy. Again, it
should be clear that if free actions are traced back to the agent's character,
we are telling a causal, that is deterministic, story.
What Hume presents is an early version of what is called compatibilist free
will. Such views are so-called because they claim that free will is compatible
with causal determinism. If this is so, then God could have determined
everyone to do good and still given them free will, because their having
been determined would have nothing to do with their freedom.
I'm sure that you have no sympathy with such accounts. However, one advantage
I've always felt that Hume's account, as well as the more sophisticated
accounts to be found in the writings of more modern compatibilist philosophers
(Ayer, for instance, wrote a pretty decent essay on free will) is that they
make sense to me. Whether it is right or wrong*, I understand what they
are saying.
This is in marked contrast to the discussions I've encountered from proponents
of incompatibilist free will, such as C. A. Campbell and Richard Taylor.
I've never been able to figure out exactly what they meant by a free choice,
given that whatever they meant they were quite insistent that it couldn't
be causally constrained. Yet they all insist that it's something I know
intuitively. It seems to me an obvious logical truth that if I know something
intuitively, then I know it. I know nothing of this free will of which
they speak. Thus, from the outset I cannot help but suspect that they're
trying to snow me.
What I'm asking, if you can manage it, is for you to explain to me what
a free choice is, including sufficient detail to prove both that 1) people
actually make such choices, and 2) the fact that people make such choices
is incompatible with their being determined to act as they do. Since we're
specifically interested in the free will response to the problem of evil,
it'd also be nice if your account managed to entail that 3) it is morally
desirable that there be such free choices.
* Personally, I suspect that they're wrong; I suspect that free will is
an incoherent mess spawned by Christian theologians with no place in respectable
philosophy. The absence of any discussion of free will in philosophy prior
to St. Augustine is my reason for thinking free will to be a Christian perversion.
The historical authority of St. Augustine and his Christian followers is
my primary reason for rejecting compatibilism; they invented free will,
so it means what they want it to, and I can find little evidence that their
meaning is the same as that proposed by the compatibilists. The hypothesis
that compatibilist free will might have independent merits is undermined
for me by, among other things, the aforementioned fact that the ancients
found no need of it.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: christology
|Date: 05 Apr 96 20:25:40
EID:85b9 2085a320
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64e0819e
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 31607856
MG>> The fact that copyright laws and patents and so forth were a
MG>> modern day invention, does not mean that they are based on
MG>> religon.
LW> I don't recall that being an issue in this discussion.
I certainly do. I thought that the basis of this is that "moral structure
comes from divine inspiration." If not, what is it?
MG>> The same idea that taking things is wrong, is the basis of
MG>> the concept, which is as old as the time when there WERE
MG>> things to take from each other.
LW> Agreed. It's just that it took a further psychological evolution
LW> for us to apply that concept to ideas as well as physical
LW> objects. That is not surprising. After all, it took quite a bit
LW> of evolution to develop the idea of property and stealing at all.
LW> Among most other animals, no such idea is recognized--though
LW> there is a developed system of territoriality among many
LW> animals.
Laws to prevent theft of ANY property certainly are not thought up by theives,
but by those stolen from. No matter what the property, those stolen from
feel cheated. This is why I disagree with you. having something taken
from you has always been wrong in the eyes of the stolen from. That's why
there were societal laws against all theft long before religion was around...at
least as we know it.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: the problem with Christianity
|Date: 05 Apr 96 20:31:16
EID:4b9f 2085a3e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 64e0862a
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 3160785a
MG>> Jesus Christ.....all we have to do is to proclaim our
MG>> relgion based on downloading pornography fromt he net.
LW> Does this imply that you are in favor of censorship?
I am definitly not for censorship, but the contest of this has slipped me,
if it was there int he first place.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Jim Mckinnon
|Sub: 33rd Degree Masons
|Date: 05 Apr 96 21:58:00
EID:1c3a 2085af40
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 3015e945
REPLY: 1:213/830@fidonet.org 41945645
> Yes there are 33rd degree masons.
They're the ones who designed the tower of Pisa, right? ;-)
> It is for the person who gives the extra effort for the
> cause of Freemasonry.
Yeah. Who'd wanna pay someone to design a tower that leans?
[grinning and ducking]
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: mark staal
|Date: 05 Apr 96 22:08:01
EID:b3bc 2085b100
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 3015e946
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 3164033d
>>KDM> Jim's grandfather is dead;
>>
> SA> Thereby implying that he's not YOUR father, as well?
> No, implying he was Jim and My Father not _Grandfather_.
I was making a play on your poor choice of wording.
You should have said "our" (you AND Jim) versus "Jim's".
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Twit Number 5
|Date: 05 Apr 96 23:02:02
EID:75bc 2085b840
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 3015e947
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 31650f64
>JB> What does any disagreement have to do with my
>JB> loan to you of my book?
>JB> That stuff all happened _long_ after I loaned it to you.
> Why question cause and effect when you do not follow the rules?
Because this "cause and effect" was a violation of the law, genius.
Deliberate destruction of someone else's property without their
permission... is a misdemeanor. As such, it has earned you
ejection from my echo. If you care to dispute my decision,
you should first consult the FidoNet Policy4 document.
>JB> What does Styx have to do with this? Or with my book?
> Styx has nothing to do with this.
I sure as hell do now, shithead. Pack your bags. You're outta here.
Moderator has spoken.
> I have already made this stipulation. What it has to do with
> you book is that it is gone. Up in smoke. You violated my
> rules.
Those rules were not yours to make, as they applied to property
which was not your own. John's rights are protected by law.
Your admission above indicates that you may face legal retribution.
Attempting to permenently deprive someone of their property is a
misdemeanor. You admit to having done so [ref: "Up in smoke"].
>JB> George... Look: that book has some personal notes I made in it.
>JB> Those can't be replaced by buying another copy....
> Well you are going to have to ask QG about them now.
If John can convince a court of a monetary value for his notes,
he can file suit against you to recover his losses.
As moderator of the echo in which you posted your incriminating
evidence, I will be most willing to cooperate fully with the legal
system, should John elect to file charges against you.
Your posts have been archived, complete with path info.
>JB> All right, George: I loaned you the book in good faith.
>JB> I need the book. It's my book, and you have it.
> I had it. Possession is nine tenths of the law.
And the other tenth is the one that can turn on you.
I could steal your car (i.e. take posession of it), and that
nine tenths of the law wouldn't save me from a grand theft auto
indictment.
> And I got rid of it per our agreement.
> One can not say I am not a man of my word.
John can. You agreed to return his book. You didn't.
There were no conditions in your original agreement, and it is
obvious that John made no such exceptions in the interim.
It is my sincere hope that John files suit against you, that you
MIGHT actually learn something as a result. (I won't hold my breath,
as I've had to do so throughout your numerous other shenanigans
in the past.) No more. I'm done babysitting you, George.
>JB> Okay then, if this is the only way you will return
>JB> my book to me, then so be it:
>JB> I will voluntarily remove myself from this echo,
>JB> _Holy_Smoke_, for ninety days, starting April 2nd (today),
>JB> if at the end of that time you will honor your word
>JB> (above written) and send me back my book.
Such extortionist tactics as what the above text indicates
thereby involves me, as this is my forum. You have NO RIGHT
whatsoever to demand that he leave my forum.
> Sorry! Not good enough.
[...]
> And again I understand I'm being unreasonable and rediculous.
One thing about you, George, is that you have always exhibited a
marked ability for understatement.
>JB> Can I trust you to do that? Will you be honest and _do_
>JB> what you above say you will?
> I've already done what I said I would. When will you be honest
> and abide by your echo rules?
His echo rules are irrelevant to the fact that you committed theft
(see above) and destruction of his property. However you say "oops";
you fucked up in a major fashion, George.
>JB> If that's the only way that you will return my property
>JB> to me, then I will do it your way.
> Sorry! Returning your property to you was not part of the
> agreement.
The law will inevitably see it differently than you do.
> The agreement was modified. You established the terms of that
> modification.
So by your "standard of ethic", I should be able to rent a car;
then tell the car rental place that the rules have changed, and
that I won't have to return the car because they want too much.
>JB> George, all it feels is like someone's got my property that
>JB> I loaned him in good faith and he's not returning as asked,
>JB> for his own personal reasons, be they legitimate or not.
>GR> Stand in line, I said the very same things about you and
>GR> Dave Horn.
Irrelevant. Those were not legal issues. This one is.
>GR> I'm not normally into power trips but I can do it with the
>GR> best of them.
You'll soon find out who's best, little boy. Your link is now
in the process of being severed. (That's why this is being copied
to you via netmail; but even YOU are bright enough to figure that out.)
Maybe you can tell John what it's like to be the fifth person to ever
be ejected from one of the world's largest electronic forums.
> You have already failed. This post is already a violation of my
> conditions.
[Styx sheds a tear for you] Now you know what mine are all about.
Consider for a moment the quantity of mindless idiots that have
frequented this echo during the last 5 years... then ponder that I
am astounded by how inane, infantile, and idiotic you are.
You are too immature to participate in this, the most open forum
in fidonet. Go find another Mister Wilson to annoy, Dennis.
You've wasted enough of my time with your assinine antics.
No more, George. Just go away.
Sincerely,
Styx Allum, HolySmoke Moderator
1:152/20
---
* Origin: Out in the Styx - Eugene OR USR 28.8 (1:152/20)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: #holysmoke still going strong!
|Date: 04 Apr 96 13:18:37
EID:16d0 20846a40
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3163cc67
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2d8d1fa2
31 Mar 96 13:08, Fredric Rice wrote to All:
FR> Typical sign-in times are any time after 6:00p.m. Pacific, 8:00p.m.
FR> Central, and 10:00p.m. Eastern. If you're late, don't worry! The
FR> most "empty" of us are on until morning!
Hey! That's enough of that shit, Jess...er, Fredric... :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you. (1:3615/1.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 03 Apr 96 15:04:02
EID:701d 20837880
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3162953c
REPLY: 1:3615/51 00183a72
01 Apr 96 21:33, Larry Bevard wrote to Elliott Finesse:
LB> We do see that He decided that He made a mistake when he brought
LB> the flood to distroy everything,
Really? How can an omnipotent God make a mistake?
LB> How do we know that God knew that all would sin?
Because he created us *as* sinners, so he could get his kicks by damning
the majority of us to hell.
LB> Let's say He does see one future only. Does that make the future
LB> set is stone?
Yes. It has to exist for him to see it. Let's say God knows that I will
shoot the President in 2025. Are you saying that, due to my free will, God
could be wrong about that? Do I really have a choice in the matter?
LB> Or is it possible that God can change the future of
LB> people by coming into their lives and thus change the future.
If the future changes, God is not omniscient.
LB> Bible as well as many others in all walks of life. We tend to think
LB> linearly about time, but God is outside of time, and think as all time
LB> as now.
Irrelevant. If God knows the future, the future must be fixed and immutable.
LB> Let's take another example, that of Jeffery Dolmer. He was
LB> Baptised into the Lord just months before he was killed in prison.
He
LB> knew that he could never do enough to make up for all of the men and
LB> boys that he had killed and ate, he knew that even his death would not
LB> repay all of the suffering that he caused, but, Thank God, even his
LB> sins were forgiven by God, and I rest assured that he is in heaven
LB> now.
So Jeffrey Dahlmer is in Heaven, and all the other people who tried to lead
good and moral lives but who never really had a chance to accept your God
are in Hell? You call this just and merciful? It seems that God doesn't
care how good or evil a person is, just as long as they grovel before him.
Disgusting.
LB> Does that mean that Jeffery or Hitler then would not have to pay for
LB> their sins. No, they still would have to make reparparation for their
LB> sins.
What "reparparation[sic]" would they have to make?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you. (1:3615/1.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: A Fair & Just God-damned Travesty
|Date: 04 Apr 96 14:06:45
EID:cfd3 208470c0
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3163d78b
03 Apr 96 08:32, Marty Leipzig wrote to Michael Hardy:
MH>> Like pointing out that the word *ratsach* in the Ten
MH>> Commandments almost always refers to murder, not killing in
Have you read that Bible you thump, Mikey?
==Cut==
Ä HolySmoke (1:3615/1.11) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄHOLYSMOKE Ä
Msg : 3110 of 3323
From : Elliott Finesse 1:215/130 02 Apr 96 11:35:00
To : John Brawley 03 Apr 96 13:16:30
Subj : Re: A Fair & Just God
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
In a message dated 03-29-96 John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
JB> (Procedural note: The Hebrew word in "thou shalt not
JB> [kill]" should be translated "murder," not "kill."
Ah, sorry John. The Hebrew word used in the 6th Commandment for kill
-"ratsach"- is also used elsewhere to mean something other than murder.
Numbers 35:27 shows that the word can mean justified killing: "If the
revenger of blood kill [ratsach] the slayer he shall not be guilty of
blood." The word was also used to denote capital punishment (Numbers
35:30-31) and even for killing by animals (Proverbs 22:13).
Nor would it make sense if it did mean murder. Murder is to kill
unlawfully, maliciously, or premeditatedly. But the Ten Commandments
supposedly _are_ the law. To say the commandment means "murder" would be
saying "it is unlawful to kill unlawfully" - tautological.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
=== Cut ===
How are we supposed to take your silly creationist ass seriously when you
make it so obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about? Is
capital punishment murder? Do animals *murder* one another? Do you have
a brain in that thick skull of yours? Do you have any shame at all?
Would someone forward this to Mikey, please? Thanks.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you. (1:3615/1.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 03 Apr 96 14:58:30
EID:bcc1 20837740
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 31629253
REPLY: 1:271/460 315fc606
01 Apr 96 07:02, Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Norbert Sykes:
FR>>> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
KM>>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
NS>> Oh, so Kenneth Mcabee is the Lord my God now? My, we _do_ put
NS>> on airs, don't we?
KM> Joining the ranks of those that must take everything said out of
KM> context?
What did he take out of context? You have been told many times that we are
not testing your God - we are *testing* you. You seem to think that you
are God.
I'll pour, will you drink?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 03 Apr 96 16:19:46
EID:4973 20838260
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3162a55e
REPLY: 1:271/460 315fd142
01 Apr 96 07:49, Kenneth Mcabee wrote to David Worrell:
KM>>>>> that no matter what you are told, you will always consider
KM>>>>> what someone says that has faith, a lie, no matter what you
KM>>>>> are told.
DW>>>> See what I mean? You couldn't be more wrong. Run back into your
DW>>>> hole and throw some babble verses at me now, li'l fundy.
KM>>> Really David? You've yet to prove it any differently.
DW>> You've told me that you were married and have at least one child,
DW>> if I remember correctly. I did not consider that to be a lie. By
DW>> your statement above, this must mean that you have no faith. If
DW>> you had faith, then I would have considered your statement a lie,
DW>> right?
DW>> Do you enjoy showing your stupidity to the world, Ken?
KM> Do you enjoy deleting stuff from messages just to make people look
KM> stupid David?
Either present the alleged context that I deleted that changed the meaning
of your message, or stop flinging baseless assertions around.
Lying is a sin, Kenneth.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: Claims of deity construc
|Date: 04 Apr 96 14:06:02
EID:93cf 208470c0
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3163d760
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0018999f
02 Apr 96 22:39, Larry Bevard wrote to Fredric Rice:
FR>> The odds of a universe like ours emerging out of the so-
FR>> called "Big Bang" is exactly 1:1 -- it happened. PRIOR to the
FR>> expansion of the universe, however, the odds are enormous that the
FR>> folding of dimentional space and propagation of probability waves
FR>> exactly as we see them now. It's no different than flipping a coin
FR>> 10,000 times and writing down the results. After it happens the
FR>> odds are 1:1 whereas if you try to flip the coin 10,000
FR>> times again, the odds of getting the exact same sequence you're
FR>> looking for are enormous.
LB> This is a very different way of stating that the universe is the
LB> way it is because that is what we observe. Carl Sagan once supported
LB> a view that the universe has had an infinite starts and stops until
it
LB> has arrieved at the present form, but the falicy of that is it would
LB> only take one set of happenings that would have caused the universe
to
LB> continue to expand and thus stop the whole system. I personnally
LB> don't get your example and how it relates to the discussion. If there
LB> was an infinite possiblity of the starting conditions, it would not
LB> figure that all of them would result in the same type of universe, no
LB> other astro-physist would agree with this. but, if you are saying
LB> that no matter how it started, the universe always had to follow the
LB> LAWS OF NATURE and thus end up like it is, again I can point to a lot
LB> of astro-physist that disagree. Please expain.
Try reading what Fred had to say again, moron. The odds against me winning
the Kentucky Lottery are several million to one. Once I win the lottery,
though, the odds for my winning of that lottery drop to 1:1.
You fundies love to bandy statistics about, but I have yet to meet one of
your brethren who had a grasp of that basic statistical fact.
LB> But, then answer this question, where did the original material
LB> and/or energy come from?
Where did your God come from?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hardy's Standard Lip-serv
|Date: 04 Apr 96 13:57:57
EID:8273 20846f20
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3163d627
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524390
01 Apr 96 11:01, Michael Hardy wrote to Elliott Finesse:
MH> How about taking up your problems with me to my face instead of to
MH> ALL, chummer?
Want some cheese to go with that whine, Knee-Jerk?
MH> That's not what I said, pal. I said atheists have no reason to be
MH> giving and generous unless they just want to. There's no overall
MH> ideal to which they can be held accountable if they don't want to. Do
MH> you deny that?
The atheist who chooses to be giving and generous is by far a better person
that the Christian who does it simply to avoid Hell, Mikey. Yet your God
sends us to Hell and takes you grovellers to Heaven. That alone says volumes
about the character of your God.
Would someone forward this to Mikey, please? Thanks.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Life in the fast lane.
|Date: 04 Apr 96 13:12:32
EID:16b9 20846980
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3163cade
02 Apr 96 08:57, Brad Jackson wrote to Rob Burcham:
BJ> I do believe you are in need of some one to guide you. It
BJ> surely isn't me but I would suggest finding a church that teaches
BJ> the truth
Which churches teach the truth, Brad? Which ones teach "false doctrine"?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Notices
|Date: 04 Apr 96 14:02:07
EID:6534 20847040
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3163d6a0
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89524389
31 Mar 96 20:32, Michael Hardy wrote to Kevin D. Mckenzie:
KDM>> But all the events? If this was the only miracle, I could
KDM>> understand it. But I can't believe that not one person who
KDM>> wasn't a disciple recorded *one* of the miracles, be it the
KDM>> raising of the dead, water into wine, feeding of the multitudes
KDM>> . . .
MH> And again, how do you know people didn't?
How much deeper into fundyism are you planning on sinking, Hardy?
Would someone forward this to Knee-Jerk, please? Thanks.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 03 Apr 96 13:18:44
EID:f8a8 20836a40
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 31627bb9
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 315F6534
31 Mar 96 23:12, Jerry Gilbreath wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Hint: Floods leave sedimentary layers. A worldwide flood would
DW>> leave a worldwide sedimentary layer. Where is this layer?
JG> There are a few places where it has washed off, but do you know
JG> of any significant areas that DON'T have sedimentary layers?
The Deccan Traps of India. The Precambrian shield areas of all continents.
I'm sure I could think of many more, given time.
DW> JG>> I am not sure what you mean by "science",
DW> JG>> but a lot of people mean "theories". You may be suprised to
DW> JG>> know that the "scientific" theory of evolution, for example
DW> JG>> has no support apart from more theories (no evidence).
DW>> Do you fundies enjoy showing your ignorance for all the
DW>> world to see You could have avoided this if you didn't rely on the
DW>> ICR for your informati on evolution.
JG> Your silence speaks volumes. This would have been an
JG> appropriate place to offer some evidence for your viewpoint.
Why do you need booster shots against the flu? There's my evidence right
there. Now, where's your evidence for this flood?
DW> JG>> The Genesis
DW> JG>> account, however, has literally millions of tons of evidence
DW> JG>> (not just theories). I am referring to the hundreds of feet
DW> JG>> of sediment all over the world, even on mountain tops.
DW>> And how does sediment on mountaintops support the Genesis account?
JG> The Genesis account states that the mountains were covered with
JG> water. Sediment settles out of water.
Sediment settles out of ash flows and ice, too. This is ignoring, of course,
what is known about continental drift and tectonic theory.
JG> If you are not able to make an intelligent reply, do not think
JG> you have to respond with vulgar comments.
Fuck you, Jesus-boy.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: The Only God
|Date: 04 Apr 96 13:13:27
EID:a1d5 208469a0
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3163cb17
02 Apr 96 08:57, Brad Jackson wrote to Dan Ceppa:
BJ> Hello Dan
BJ> I am starting to get the impression that you do not believe in
BJ> God. Would this be a true statement?
Another fundy with a firm grasp of the obvious.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: The Religious Reich Wing Graffiti.HTM
|Date: 04 Apr 96 13:20:51
EID:75a9 20846a80
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 3163cd64
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 2d8d3e8d
31 Mar 96 13:15, Fredric Rice wrote to All:
FR>
FR>
FR> Right Wing Graffiti
FR>
I thought it was only fundies that refused to take the time to delete all
the HTML code from crossposts. At least you tried to make sure the formatting
stayed the same. :)
FYI: When saving a document with Netscape in windows, if you click on the
little down arrow out beside the File Type box in the Save Dialog, you will
see an option to save the document as a simple text file. Netscape will
strip *most* of the HTML code for you.
---
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|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:17:00
EID:c630 2084aa20
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 31660281
NS> Ah, them boys is going to have a heap o' fun wit you. <>
NS> Can you-all squeel like a pig? };)
I haven't tried lately, but so far I haven't felt the need.
Check back later. :-) <>
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 04 Apr 96 21:44:00
EID:9dab 2084ad80
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 31660282
ML> JG> This would have been an
ML> JG> appropriate place to offer some evidence for your viewpoint.
ML> My evidence is covered under the heading Qe in the local
ML> library, Science and Technology: Geology.
The next time you run across some of it that seems convincing, go
ahead and upload it.
ML> DW> JG> sediment all over the world, even on mountain tops.
ML> DW>And how does sediment on mountaintops support the Genesis account?
ML> JG> The Genesis account states that the mountains were covered with
ML> JG> water. Sediment settles out of water.
ML> Indeed. It also settles out of ice, wind and pyroclastic flows
No wonder the theory of evolution requires so much time to explain
things. It must take millions of years for sediment to settle out of
ice.
ML> Mountains are not just piles of unconsolidated sediment. And
ML> they're of vastly different ages. Care to explain those little
ML> facts, scarecrow?
No problem. Volcanic mountains could have formed more recently than
those of igneous rock. You would be hard pressed to find a mountain
over 10,000 years old, however. BTW, have you heard about the
primordial polonium in granite?
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
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|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 04 Apr 96 22:01:00
EID:fac7 2084b020
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 31660283
JB> JG> and several dating methods for the earth indicate an approximate
age
JB> JG> of about 20,000 years or less.
JB>If this is so, please explain how we can see starlight that takes longer
JB>than 20,000 years to get here.
Given current estimates of the distance of the stars and the
speed of light, 20,000 years is probably a good number. However,
I do not believe that the speed of light has been constant since
the universe was created. Some scientists believe that the
speed of light has been slowing down.
JB>BTW, 'the earth isn't as old as the rest of the universe' won't cut it
if
JB>you are using biblical reasoning for your age estimates since the bible
says
JB>it was all created at once.
Correct.
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ * LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 04 Apr 96 23:47:00
EID:9117 2084bde0
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 31660284
KD>How could all of the animals have fit in the ark?
No problem. There was about 1 million cubic feet of space. Presently
there are about 290 kinds of animals larger than a sheep. There are
about 757 kinds from rat to sheep size, and about 1,359 kinds smaller
than rats. The average size is the size of a house cat.
KD>How could a boat of that size have been seaworthy?
The ark is about the size of the Titanic. There are larger
ships that are seaworthy. It is interesting to note that such
large ships have not been built until this century, but they
of necessity have the same proportions as the ark.
KD>Why is there clear evidence of the existence of animals that we have
not
KD>seen in modern history?
Bubbles trapped in amber have shown that the atmospheric
pressure before the flood was more than twice what it is now.
The oxygen content was much higher also. The dinosaurs could
have become extinct due to these changes. Also the animals you
mentioned might have been affected.
KD>What about the dietary requirements of the animals while on the ark and
KD>afterwards?
The dietary requirements would have been minimal due to the lack
of activity. Many of the animals probably hibernated due to the
darkness and constant motion.
KD>And by the way, did Noah bring one pair of each, or one pair of the
KD>unclean and 7 of the clean?
A pair of each kind, both clean and unclean, to preserve the
species. In addition, 5 more of the clean animals were taken as
food.
KD>How did plants and sea animals survive?
Seeds could have floated on the surface or could have been
trapped in other debris on the surface.
KD> JG> BTW, how do you think the sediment was deposited?
KD>Through local flooding, as well as periods of more than one year in
KD>which particular land was covered by ocean. The evidence shows clearly
KD>that any waterlogged periods were for hundreds of years, not one year.
It would be very difficult to cover a mountain with a local
flood, given the fact that water runs downhill. How did the
sediment cover the mountains?
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 05 Apr 96 00:42:00
EID:7ff1 20850540
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 31660285
DM> We have an account of a global flood directly produced by
DM> Yahweh in the Bible. Given the fact that we have information,
DM> presumably from a source inspired by omniscience, of the extent
DM> of the flood ("over the highest mountains," or roughly 30,000
DM> feet above present sea level) and of the time of the rain (40
DM> days and 40 nights = 40 24-hour days = 960 hours), it is easy to
DM> calculate the rate of the rainfall: 30,000/960 = 31.25 feet of
DM> water fell per hour. That is little better than six inches of
DM> rainfall per minute.
Impressive! However, your calculations are based on inaccurate data.
According to Psalms 104:8, the mountains were not as high before the
flood and the valleys were not as low.
DM> We know from geology that floods leave evidence in direct
DM> proportion to their size (this stratum would, for instance, be
DM> far thicker than any other ever created and would cover all the
Take a look at the Grand Canyon. It contains hundreds of feet
of sediment that was deposited rather quickly. If you know any
geologists, ask about the hummocky cross stratification found
there. It is a formation that is created by rather violent
storms. Hurricanes in the Gulf have made similar formations,
but on a much smaller scale.
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 04 Apr 96 23:54:00
EID:a0aa 2084bec0
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 31660286
If you replied to my post, please post it again. I seem to have lost
some messages. Sorry for the inconvenience.
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Stuart Lumgair
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 05 Apr 96 16:35:02
EID:0957 20858460
MSGID: 1:153/556.0 165aff30
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 14493830
Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Stuart Lumgair:
SL>JJ> Let me ask your opinion, however, of the larger
SL>JJ> question: was the former Soviet Union the moral equal of
SL>JJ> the U.S.A.?
SL> I sent a fairly involved answer to this question a few
SL> weeks ago, and have not seen a reply. My feed at this
SL> end is poor, so I was wondering if you had recieved it ?
JJ> Well, that is not much to go on, Stuart, but I don't
JJ> recall such a message.
It seems that my feed here is very poor, and I
am far to lazy to attempt to remember what I
wrote last time about pots calling kettles black.
Blessed Be
Stuart
--- timEd-B9
* Origin: Lost Cause BBS (604) 854-1869 (1:153/556)
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 153/556 528 970 752 716 920 270/101 218/801
|From: Stuart Lumgair
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 05 Apr 96 16:37:42
EID:0f22 208584a0
MSGID: 1:153/556.0 165aff31
Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to Stuart Lumgair:
SL> end is poor, so I was wondering if you had recieved it ?
JB> I don't know about Jesse, but this is the first I've seen
JB> from you since you said you were back.
It seems that my feed here is a bit pathetic. My sister
did get your email on the internet though ;-) I hope
all that stuff with the job situation has worked out in
your favour. Well, gotta run.
Stuart
--- timEd-B9
* Origin: Lost Cause BBS (604) 854-1869 (1:153/556)
SEEN-BY: 1/201 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/151 528 529 553 556 710 716
SEEN-BY: 153/751 752 800 813 920 923 970 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 351/1 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 153/556 528 970 752 716 920 270/101 218/801
3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
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PATH: 153/556 528 970 752 716 920 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ANGELS OR DEMONS???
|Date: 05 Apr 96 14:29:00
EID:999c 208573a0
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
MH> adjust the genetic code as necessary? Perhaps in creating Eve from
MH> Adam's rib, He also gave her sufficiently divergent genes.
MH> Why not? :)
Here we go again! Would you bother to go back and read the context of
that remark? It was in answer to Anthony Grigor-Scott's contention that
the Jews are not related to Adam because Eve fucked the serpent to get
pregnant with Cain and the Jews come from Cain and are therefore not
created by god through Adam.
If the story of Eve's creation is true, then it doesn't matter who Cain's
father is, he is STILL related to Adam.
Can you put your foot farther in your mouth?
... Revenge is damp - any cat.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: THUMB-SUCKING FUNDY
|Date: 05 Apr 96 16:35:00
EID:08e6 20858460
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
JG> Kind of destroys his credibility as far as I am concerned.
I DO hope you like chocolate.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Laszlo Sokolai
|Sub: 19055730964
|Date: 05 Apr 96 16:42:00
EID:4129 20858540
-=> Quoting Laszlo Sokolai to Ian Moote <=-
LS> Ok Ian, you seem to be playing a tag, send and forward to Fido Net
LS> Mail game. Since you do not openly send foul language over the normal
Well, Ian's going to have the last laugh on this one because it ended up
in the INTERNATIONAL echo called Holysmoke. For all the world and
Australia to see.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 05 Apr 96 16:46:00
EID:cfa6 208585c0
-=> Quoting Mark Barnett to Fredric Rice <=-
MB> it all up but as I understande it physics change quite alot? Now that
Maybe you will understand this from someone who doesn't know physics and
doesn't really care to.
The laws of physics do not change...gravity is not suddenly going to
disappear and let you float off into space, the speed of light is not
going to lower itself to 55 mph.
These laws...which should more accurately be called THEORIES...are added
to and changed as scientists discover new things and better understandings
of how they work. But the physics themselves do not change.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ROB'S VARIOUS REPLIES
|Date: 05 Apr 96 16:57:00
EID:4bbe 20858720
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
RB>> broken foot while millions of children go starving.
MG> Does it seem likely to you that god lets millions starve and fixes
MG> this relatively minor problem?
Most likely a sleepy x-ray tech who just read the damn thing wrong. Hell,
from ONE set of x-rays on my wrists I've got one doctor who says there's
nothing wrong, one who says it's carpal tunnel complicated by a bone cyst
and arthritis and one who wants me in the hospital for tests for MS (even
though there's no other symptoms) And these 3 all work together.
But then, Mike's prone to believe anything anyone tells him as long as
the other person prefaces it with 'I happen to be a christian'.
... What's all this fuss about endangered feces?
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: WEST
|Date: 05 Apr 96 17:09:00
EID:2577 20858920
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Al Schroeder <=-
MH> Are you referring to the Mae West? "Is that a pistol in your pocket,
MH> or ... ?"
I hope to hell you aren't as stupid as that comment makes you sound. Or
did you really not know that a Mae West is a life jacket? (Or, in today's
parlance, a personal flotation device)
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Peter Trussell
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE ON
|Date: 05 Apr 96 17:12:00
EID:6660 20858980
-=> Quoting Peter Trussell to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
PT> "Citiadel" A military school that was partially funded by
PT> government sources that excluded women. I think that the current
It's the 'Citadel'. It isn't PARTIALLY funded by government sources. It
is WHOLLY OWNED (mark that word carefully...OWNED) by the state of South
Carolina. It sits on property valued at $17,000,000 (that's 17 MILLION)
and has a budget of $8,000,000 (that's 8 MILLION) per year that is paid
from the state treasury. It also receives FEDERAL education money. So my
taxes are going from both the state and federal level to support a STATE
OWNED institution that is discriminatory. And my tax dollars, both state
and federal, are being used in the fight to KEEP it discriminatory.
And that's a crock of shit, bunky.
Oh yes, I live in Charleston, SC...so the doings of the Citadel are VERY
familiar to me. In fact, the new commandant there is the foster son of my
next door neighbors.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 05 Apr 96 17:24:00
EID:45b9 20858b00
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Al Schroeder <=-
RB> It would be interesting to know what 'percentage' of current theists
RB> and nontheists exhibit no (or little) racism and sexism. Of course,
I remember reading some time ago that the most segregated HOUR in the US
is between 10am and 11am on Sunday morning.
... Therapy is good, but screaming obsceneties is cheaper.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10
SEEN-BY: 260/801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: ryan shaw
|To: All Fundies
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:24:49
EID:b3d0 208b6300
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 16d3f612
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
As many people may know a young Californian set out to be the youngest female
to ever fly across the United States. She's seven years old. She set out
in her Cessna 177B four-seater from Half Moon Bay, California [just south
of San Francisco] yesterday.
Today her plane was caught in a rain/thunderstorm and crashed, killing her,
her father, and the instructor that was flying along with her.
Would a all-powerful and loving god allow this to happen? One would think
that a god with such qualifications would be quite able to get the young
pilot through the thunderstorm and on to safety. Either that, or he has
one very sick sense of `humor.'
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 10 Apr 96 03:00:00
EID:3088 208a1800
On 7 Apr 96 07:22am, STEVE WALLIS wrote to FREDRIC RICE:
FR>> No wonder the _Christian_ Adolf Hitler got away with what he did wth
FR>> people like you around to justify it like he did -- with deity
FR>> constructs.
SW> Adolf hitler wasnt a Christian, he may have called himself one but he
SW> was just as far from Christianity as you seem to be. Israel was told
to
SW> inhabit the land, it was there's to possess.
Some Hitler quotes from the alt.atheism faq:
"The folkish minded-man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his
own
denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's
will,
and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated."
"For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their abilities.
Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the
divine will. Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own denomination
if you please, and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty
to
oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines
of his religious community and tries to butt into the other."
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the
Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for
the
work of the Lord"
(All taken from "Mein Kampf", translated by Ralph Mannheim)
Hitler certainly appears to have been a theist, and claimed to be a
Christian:
"The Fuhrer made it known to those entrusted with the Final Solution that
the
killings should be done as humanely as possible. This was in line with his
conviction that he was observing God's injunction to cleanse the world of
vermin. Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite
detestation of its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always
remain so"), he carried within him its teaching that the
Jew
was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without
a
twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of
God--
so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty."
--John Toland (Pulitzer Prize winner), from "Adolf Hitler", pp 507, talking
about the autumn of 1941
The "I am now as before a Catholic..." quotation from Hitler was recorded
in
the diary of Gerhard Engel, an SS Adjutant, in October 1941. Hitler was
speaking in private, not before a mass audience, and so it is difficult
to
dismiss the comment as propaganda lies.
___________
Hitler stated he was a Christian by his own words.
Becke
... Meaningless gods cannot grant what they do not have.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 179
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 1
|Date: 10 Apr 96 03:00:00
EID:b21c 208a1800
On 7 Apr 96 10:08am, MICHAEL HARDY wrote to BECKE JONES:
BJ>> Exactly what "basic scientific evidence" are you talking about?
BJ>> Please cite references. Book name, author, and page numbers, please.
BJ>> "Authorized" Christian authors need not apply in this instance.
MH> Well THERE'S a way to be fair-minded. Exclude an entire class of people
MH> based solely on their religion.
Not a matter of fairness in this instance. If a person is a Christian, more
likely than not they are biased towards Creationism. If you believe in the
inerrancy of the Bible, Creationism is not scienfically possible.
I figured we'd get the drool out of the way from the get-go and discuss
real
hard evidence.
MH> If a Christian author understands the science involved, yet disagrees
MH> with the majority opinion, why shouldn't you be willing to give him
a
MH> chance? Perhaps he has some insight that other scientists lack.
That is called denying the facts, m'dear. Same principle as if we were to
point out something in the Bible that a fundie doesn't agree with. More
often
that not, they will cover their ears and scream "IS NOT!" at the top of
their
lungs. Even you are guilty of this one more than one occasion, Michael.
The only way a Christian author could be used as an argument for evolution
is
if he gave up his theistic beliefs of Creationism--which would negate his
deity constructs altogether.
MH> Then again, perhaps he is all wet. But by taking the "Christians need
MH> not apply" approach, you'll never know.
This is the same person who in a later message to Elliot in this packet
admitted that he doesn't believe in Creationism and was just arguing for
it
to get a rise out of people. Two points to make on that one.
First, that doesn't seem like a very Christian-like thing to do.
Secondly, if you don't believe in Creationism, how then are you a
Real True Christian? If you eliminate one part of the Bible, why
don't you eliminate them all?
Becke
... HolySmoke: Fundy roadkill on the Information Superhighway.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 179
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 11 Apr 96 21:13:59
EID:2004 208ba9a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 653008ab
REPLY: 1:116/19 0409EA08
MG>> Now, does this sound vaguely familiar?
AS> Of course, Marty. That's why I have stressed the anthropic
AS> coincidences and what we can glean of the history of the
AS> disciples of Jesus, both of which are evidence.
I KNOW that's why you stress them. It's all you have to go on rather than
solid evidence.
1. I have evidence of wood. I have pictures of trees. I have a video
of wood being cut into lumber. I see lumber for sale at the local hardware
store.
2. I have evidence of wood. Wood was put here for us to use, therefore
it must have been created by an intelligent designer.
Now, which makes sense to you?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 11 Apr 96 21:16:46
EID:20e4 208baa00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65300b36
REPLY: 1:116/19 0409ED6E
MG>> This is the kinda guy that likes to play soldier. He needs
MG>> badly to get a life and a few other things.
AS> No argument there. But he's more my mess than yours, since he
AS> thinks himself a Man of God.
Which begs the question...why is he not?
Certainly, he thinks he. He might even think that you are not. What decides?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 11 Apr 96 21:17:39
EID:3d43 208baa20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65300cd9
REPLY: 1:116/19 0409F1D8
MG>> I need not try it. I do not have this power. An all
MG>> powerful, perfect deity does. It's up to him, not me to make
MG>> this a perfect universe. Were he able to do it, that is.
AS> Anything but the logically inconsistent. Which is not a
AS> reflection on God's power, but on Man's semantics. God is
AS> not any less powerful because Man is able to utter
AS> nonsense.
Wrongo, Al. Perfect gods can do anything. If it's impossible for a god,
it isn't much of a god.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 11 Apr 96 21:18:51
EID:3d43 208baa40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 653012f3
REPLY: 1:116/19 0409FFAC
AS> No doubt of that. Since technical peer reviewed journals depend
AS> on repeatable experiments or observations. The anthropic
AS> coincidences can be tested for, and have been, again and
AS> again. Articles in NATURE and SCIENCE and NATURAL REVIEW
AS> have appeared about it (I gave you a few references six
AS> months or so ago). But where such evidence leads depends on
AS> how many options you allow in your worldview. Many use it as
I know that you did, but I have lost them. Would you post just one or two
if it's not too much trouble. I have no difficults researching these kinds
of journals. Nature and Science are btw, heavily peer reviewed.
AS> evidence for a many-worlds hypothesis, because they feel
AS> disinclined to allow intelligent design into their
AS> worldview. I think, personally, that is a a priori basis
Becasue we do nto see the evidence for it. I will without hold further
statements ont his stream until I see precisely wht you have for me.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: 1996-04-03 Proclamation
|Date: 11 Apr 96 21:29:38
EID:fb33 208baba0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 653028dd
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89594393
MH> I say if this dog-and-pony show is the worst thing you have to
MH> worry about, you should count yourself lucky and consider
MH> how you came to have so much free time on your hands.
While I agree with you in primciple, wht would you have said if the president
sponsered a day of no prayer.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: The Raven
|Sub: MAD COWS
|Date: 11 Apr 96 21:44:37
EID:9789 208bad80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65305202
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3169f2b5
JH>> It's simply one protien acting upon others.
TR> I think that's what he was saying. I am hardly a biologist,
TR> and may have misinterpreted or misheard what he said.
It seems thta wht I read in response to this is that these prions are enzymes.
Enzymes are proteins molecules that act as biological catlysts. Most scientists
thingk of enzymes when proteins are mentioned.
Enymes catalyze reactions. In doiong so, the enzymes thta act on other
proteins (proteases) would clip them inot tow or more pieces depending ont
he squence and content of the amino acids. Most will clip them on one side
or other of a specific amino acid or two. In this manner, the proteins
of a system can be degraded. I still ahve no learned why they are all neuromuscular
proteins, however.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Pinnacle of Life
|Date: 11 Apr 96 21:49:06
EID:5725 208bae20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 653059bf
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3169f2af
TR> Are we perfect? Of course not. But are we the
TR> pinnacle of life on this planet? You bet your ass.
We are simply another life form. We have not stopped evolving, even though
we have attempted to do so by selecting every bad gene that we have. In
this manner, we may fall victim to those very pressures that we have worked
so hard to prtect ourselves from and let the next "Age of the _______" begin.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 11 Apr 96 21:53:16
EID:de58 208baea0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65306611
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316A3CD6
MG>>I have offered to send you a bibliograph of evidence for
MG>>evolution that woul choke this network. It would consiste of
MG>>billions of bytes of info? Do you decline my offer? Are you
MG>>scared to find out how wrong you might be?
JG> I know that much has been written. It is incumbent on you to
JG> determine what you believe. Then if you are willing, you can
JG> discuss it with others. Don't expect me do your reading for
JG> you.
Is your reading comprehension at the level of a four year old. I know that
evolution works because I have read the evidence. I am offering it to you
for your perusal. There is, quite literally a mountain of it. Are you
too scared to read it? Is your faith not that strong?
JG> The decay of the earth's magnetic field indicates an upper limit
JG> of about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr.
JG> Thomas G. Barnes, Professor Emeritus of Physics at the
JG> University of Texas. You may want to read his book, Origin
JG> and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field.
I will look this up tomorrow. I suspect that if this person is a real physicist,
he would turn over in his grave if he knew that you were espousing him as
a creationist. We will see.
JG> Another method is the accumulation of meteoric dust. Remember
JG> the big pods on the legs of the first lunar lander? They
JG> found that there was NOT millions of years of dust
JG> accumulation on the moon as was once thought.
This was debunked years ago. The figures for the accumulation of dust ont
he lunar surface were LOGARITHMS off.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Re: 1996-04-03 Proclamation
|Date: 09 Apr 96 21:50:13
EID:f5f7 2089ae40
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 32960446
RS> He has selected a Thursday, May 2, for this national religious ritual.
RS> If we really believe in separation of church and state, I think that
we
RS> should at the very least let him know with our cards and letters on
that
RS> day that we find his proclamation offensive, else Smiling Bill will
just
RS> go right along thinking that he's pleasing everybody.
Well, if I was American I would march right down there with a huge tin barrel
of smudge and fire it up...after all, I'm entitled to pray too! How long
d'ya
think I'd be there before I was arrested?
Keep those cards and letters coming!
Can't let the Christians have all the fun!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Lawrence Mccurry
|To: All
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 09 Apr 96 01:01:00
EID:0508 20890820
MSGID: 1:2424/104.0 895B3BC1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 93-0695
There is only one holy smoke and my brothers and sisters are put into
your jails everyday for smoking it...LET MY PEOPLE GO.... Tell your
local political piggy that you want marijauna legalized Now!
Or shall we rot in jail for growing a gift God gave to us all.
=== Lawrence ===
* OLX 2.1 TD * If I wanted any shit out of you, I'd squeeze your head.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Gemini BBS - Toronto, Ont. 1-416-921-2256 (1:2424/104.0)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A fair & just god
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:14:01
EID:24df 208b61c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 8b140343
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AS>AS> We lay down laws for our pets. A shepherd herds the sheep where
AS>AS>they should go, and yells at them if they try to go the other
AS>AS>way.
AS>KM> Yes, but we aren't able to design our pets, either.
AS>
AS> Most dog breeds you see are not the product of blind Nature, but of
AS> deliberate breeding. And pretty soon, genetics will enable us to
AS> REALLY design our pets.
Goes back to the discussion we had last year. I don't think I'd
want gengineered pets, either.
AS>KM> Nor, for that matter, do we punish our pets for something they
AS>KM> can't be expected to be responsible for. This summer, my cat
AS>KM> seriously scratched me; I was holding her when a vacuum cleaner
AS>KM> came near, and she felt the need to leave, no matter what. I
AS>KM> still have scars, yet I didn't hunt her down and punish her for
AS>KM> that. The second I had stopped the the bleeding as well as I
AS>KM> could, I found her and calmed her down. If I was following the
AS>KM> example of the biblical god, I'd've killed her, or at least
AS>KM> kicked her out.
AS> A tortured voice from Golgotha crying, "Father, forgive them, they
AS> know not what they do!" Jesus showing the wounds He had...on His
AS> hands, on His feet, in His side...to Thomas.
AS> Are you SURE that's the example of the Biblical God?
The OT one, yes. Personally, I have a hard time reconciling the OT God
to the NT one. I realize you don't believe in most of the things the OT
god did, but there must have been a reason that the people then
perceived him that way.
AS> Now look at it the other way. Suppose you had small children
AS> under your charge. Suppose you had a pit bull. Suppose the pit bull
AS> was a danger to the children. The pit bull has done nothing wrong,
AS> is just keeping to the nature we bred into it. But we would at the
AS> very least seperate it from the children. And we might kill it.
Yes, certainly. But that isn't what God supposedly does. There's a
difference between putting people in Hell and giving a dog to someone
else, especially if you've checked up on the household you're giving him
to.
... Lab Law #1: Hot glass looks just like cold glass
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Demons...demons
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:17:02
EID:1e47 208b6220
MSGID: 1:157/200 8b140354
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
SUE ARMSTRONG spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
SA> KDM> There's some others, too. All of SSI's Gold Box games, and a
SA>lot of
SA>I tried one of the Gold Box games; I didn't really like the way it
SA>controlled movement (though perhaps it was because my numeric
SA>keypad at the time was frozen?)
I don't remember having a problem, so that's probably why.
SA> KDM> Sierra games, like the first two Quest for Glory games,
SA> KDM> Populous, and . . . others, which I can't think of. Simcity,
SA> KDM> the original.
SA>Hm. Now I've just got to track down folks willing to part with
SA>these ..
I'm feeling empty. What size disk drive do you have? I'll not part
with my Quest for Glory games, but I've no use, nor, for that matter, a
place to use, most of my older games. If I can find all the pieces,
I'll gladly send them to you.
SA> KDM> BTW, I'd like to create a Darwin's Outcasts page (right now,
SA> KDM> there's just a link to the file). Do you mind if I use the
SA> KDM> readme file for part of it?
SA>
SA>Go right ahead.
All right. Thanks.
SA>On that note, I'll be releasing the long-delayed second issue
SA>after I get my hard card (which might be sooner than anticipated.)
SA>I have to manipulate the scanned images a lot when I get them, and
SA>I just don't have the HD space right now for it. An extra 40 megs
SA>to play with is really going to make life easier.
I might not be here when you do that, so you may want to see if someone
else is willing to post it to USENET and such.
... Decaffeinated coffee? But . . . why?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Us bans abortionspeak
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:22:03
EID:8a77 208b62c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 8b140365
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL>If I agreed to do a specific act and you were harmed because I
TL>TL>didn't act on my agreement, then I am culpable. On the other
TL>TL>hand, if you were harmed when I could have saved you, but I had no
TL>TL>agreement to do so, I am NOT culpable.
TL>TL>If I harm you due to an UNJUSTIFIED act, or UNJUSTIFIED faliure to
TL>TL>act, I am culpable.
TL>
TL> KDM> Tell me, do you always feel the need to shift the playing
TL>field?
TL>What shift? That was a direct response to your claim about
TL>action/inaction.
Just that you only argue legal terms when it suits you.
TL>TL>Thus convictions are obtained with no need to PROVE harm; just
TL>TL>allege it.
TL>
TL> KDM> As far as they know, harm has already been proven. Remember
TL> KDM> Time's "Cyberporn" issue?
TL>
TL>Allegations of harm are not equivalent TO 'harm.'
This is America we're talking about, remember? Here, in the public eye,
it is.
TL> KDM> I was talking about a judge's decision in a recent case
TL> KDM> regarding Netcom and the Church of Scientology.
TL>
TL>I think that was a case of 'harm' to proprietary data by it's
TL>unconsented public disclosure, if memory serves me right. Wasn't
TL>porn, and 'harm' had to be 'proved,' not just alleged.
No, that wasn't it. Two content providers were on trial, and only one
was found liable, because in the past they had engaged in filtering
material. Had they not, they would not have been liable.
TL>That's the essential difference between regulatory vs common law.
TL>
TL>In regulatory law, govt only needs to 'prove' that a rule violation
TL>occoured. Since the premise is that ANY occourance of 'x' is a tort
TL>(harmful), the rule violation itself is regarded as prima facia
TL>'evidence' of legally actionable 'harm.'
TL>
TL>That makes 'criminals' out of all people in a class of behavior,
TL>regardless of individual harmLESSness.
No, it makes those that break rule X criminals.
... I'm a lousy American. I like to make my own decisions.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Us bans abortionspeak
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:33:04
EID:8a77 208b6420
MSGID: 1:157/200 8b140376
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL>'Goverment of some kind' is described in the U.S. Constitution.
TL>TL>It's based on the comon law princible that harm doers must be
TL>TL>brought to justice in order to preserve a society of individual
TL>TL>liberty.
TL> KDM> Oh? Where does it say that?
TL>
TL>The Bill of Rights (1st 10 amndmnts to US Const) makes it clear that
TL>an individual's liberty can be infringed by govt ONLY when they do
TL>harm. Govt adjudicates to protect an individual's just rights
TL>against another's aggression.
Yes, I know what the Bill of Rights are, Terry.
TL>The premise is that the Constitution, BoR and other amendments,
TL>define an agency to defend individual liberty; America as a free
TL>society.
TL>Are you questioning that idealization? If you are, that convesation
TL>belongs in the 'history' or 'philosophy' forums. Am I assuming too
TL>much aggreement between us on basic premise?
Yes, we do. However, the point you're missing is that it has been 200
years since the Constitution was written, and a lot has changed. What
was intended and what is are often different things.
TL> KDM> And please remember, the Supreme Court is there to interpret
TL> KDM> the Constitution.
TL>
TL>But not exclusivly. We are not, and should not be, THAT subordinate
TL>to govt.
Of course. We should only obey the Constitution when it
suits us.
TL>TL>It is NOT based on pre-emptive action by govt to 'regulate' people
TL>TL>into good behaviour. People should be 'accountable' for the harm
TL>TL>they do. That's not the same as 'accountablility' to authority
TL>TL>for obedience.
TL>
TL> KDM> Yes, but if regulations, such as certain gun restrictions, are
TL> KDM> in place, then they can prevent harm,
TL>
TL>...only by govt 'punishing' the innocent by infringing thier
TL>harmlessly excersized rights to get at the harm DOERS...
Why? Why, for example, does *anyone*, outside of the military, need
fully automatic weapons?
TL> KDM> which is far better then merely punishing.
TL>
TL>I don't agree that it's 'better' to punish a large body of innocents
TL>in an attempt to get at harm doers. Especially in this example where
TL>it's effectivness as a disarming tactic is debatable; guns or
TL>communications.
Do you feel the same way about the FDA? I don't know about you, but I'm
rather happy someone is there to inspect meat before I eat it.
TL>TL>That's the difference between 'regulatory' law and 'comon' law.
TL>
TL> KDM> So? Some regulations are good, some bad.
TL>
TL>Since there is a difference of opinion regarding WHICH ones are
TL>'good' or 'bad,' the only tolerable regulation should be that which
TL>is consented to in voluntary association; church, club, commerce and
TL>so on. It's the difference between power being excersized over each
TL>individual by coercion or individual consent.
Part of living in America means accepting these regulations, Terry.
And, as I said above, I'm thankful for many of them.
TL>Who would argue for coercion in a matter if it can be resolved
TL>consensually?
Yes, if it can be. Many things can not.
... "You keep saying that, I don't think it means what you think it means"
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 11 Apr 96 18:20:05
EID:2735 208b9280
MSGID: 1:157/200 8b140387
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL>Is that how you rationalize reckless endangerment of the kids by
TL>TL>govt agents? Are you for real with this justification? Someone
TL>TL>in the residence blasts govt agents so it's ok to harm the kids
TL>TL>too?
TL> KDM> No, I don't. However, I can't really blame the BATF or FBI for
TL> KDM> that either.
TL>
TL>Why on Earth not? The tanks were ordered in by the FBI, not the
TL>kids. The two cannot be equated.
Because the FBI wasn't responsible for the children being there. The
BATF went to serve a warrant, something they had a legal right to do.
They did it at the wrong place, I agree, but after that point, it was
the Dividians who screwed everything up.
TL> KDM> The kids should not have been there;
TL>
TL>But the kids WERE there and FBI had no business driving tanks into
TL>that 'kid' OCCUPIED home.
They didn't, remember? Knocking a hole in a wall with an APC is far
different from driving a tank into a building.
TL> KDM> the Davidians kept them there as shields.
TL>
TL>Govt had no business punching thru THAT kind of 'shield.'
Why? It wasn't, and isn't, there responsibility. They tried to avoid
harming innocents; in fact, as of yet, I've seen no evidence that they
actually did harm any.
TL> KDM> They could have sent them out at any time; they did not.
TL>
TL>The Davidians are/were not on the PUBLIC payroll; govt is. One
TL>dosn't excuse the other even if they were equivalent personell. But
TL>they are not.
TL>Davidians don't work for us. It's GOVT'S actions we are responsible
TL>for.
I've never said they are equivalent; I'm saying that you're placing all
the blame on one side, when it should be spread out instead.
TL> KDM> Plus, I've as of yet seen no evidence that the BATF or FBI
TL> KDM> killed any of them.
TL>
TL>This forum is not the TRIAL of govt agents; it's the place to call
TL>for one.
Before you waste the public's money, shouldn't you provide evidence that
harm was done?
TL> KDM> The fact that they'd waited 51 days would do it. Pampering
TL> KDM> nuts only provides encouragement for other nuts.
TL>
TL>And do you REALLY think this justifies driving TANKS thru a residence
TL>occupied by men, women and children?
They didn't.
TL> KDM> I saw it, Terry. They used an APC to breach a hole in the
TL> KDM> wall, no more, no less.
TL>
TL>I saw it too. And questioned how they could run an armoured vehicle
TL>thru a wall when there were men, women and children on the otherside.
TL>That was enough, by itself, to arouse my suspicion and ire.
Those men and women were felons, remember? Murder or accessories to
murder.
TL>Statements made by govt officials at trial and in public appearences,
TL>local and nationwide intensified my anger over the callous disregard
TL>for reckless endangerment and the need to CREDIBLY investigate.
Which quotes?
TL>That quote I've been including is a rather good encapsulation that I
TL>believe would motivate any honest person to insist on indictments.
TL>Govt has NOT denied running the 'armoured vehicles' thru the
TL>residence. Govt's testimony at the trial of surviving Branch
TL>Davidians is that they were TRYING to bring the structure down while
TL>it was still occupied.
Such as?
TL>Start by indicting the tank drivers; see where it leads.
Start by providing evidence that it is necessary to try them.
TL>TL>Do you actually mean to take the position that innocent kids
TL>TL>should be punished by govt for the sins of SOME other residents?
TL>TL>Wasn't this assault publicly justified by govt to 'save the
TL>TL>children?'
(Continued next message...)
... It is easier to be critical than to be correct.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Creator God
|Date: 11 Apr 96 06:24:28
EID:b102 208b3300
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 145e5218
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAN CEPPA to JESSE JONES on 04-08-96
DC> DC> JJ> Evil exists. Some theological constructs assign that evil
DC> DC> JJ> to a separate deity.
DC>
DC> DC>Yours requires that your god created everything, which puts it
DC> DC>all into his court. The other religions did a far better job
DC> JJ> Why do you think the concept of dueling deities is "a far
DC> JJ> better job" of dealing with the existence of evil? It is a
DC> JJ> much more
DC>Look above, Jesse. You have to do serious logic warping to show
DC>how your god is both. Then, take a look at other multiple-deity
DC>religions and see how it's handled. If someone professes to
DC>a particular deity, you have a good ideal where that person stands,
DC>such as the followers of Kali.
DC>With your schizophrenic god, lacking a true supporting pantheon,
DC>it's no wonder that true xians do such things in the name of
DC>their god. They have the general protection of the cult, as they
DC>profess belief in the "same" god.
All that says is that it is *easier* to assign different
attributes to different pieties But then there is no omnipotent God --
no universal God -- no supreme God. The slow development of a
monotheistic view was the great contribution of the Jewish tradition.
It remains a difficult concept, as your own inability to grasp
it demonstrates. And so we toy with the Trinity, with Satan, with Mary
worship, and with heresies such as modalism. But we return again and
again to monotheism.
Do you truly believe that professing Christians who embrace Evil
do so in the name of the one God? No. Either they mistake their own
evil for righteousness, as in the case of the abortionist killers, or
they opt for "the devil made me do it."
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 04/11/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
90% of being smart is knowing what you're dumb at.
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Zionist-Hate Media
|Date: 11 Apr 96 06:24:26
EID:cb52 208b3300
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 145e5217
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting MARK CRAIG to ALL on 04-07-96
MC>Do you notice how the Jew media chooses to show the life of Moses,
MC>rather than Jesus, during Easter? They must really hate him --
MC>jn.8:44. And to think how those hypocrites in our churches, have
MC>allied themselves with them.
MC>1st. John says that anyone who does not accept him as Lord is the
MC>Anti- Christ, and not to sit-down with them.
There *is* no "Jew media," and bigotry like this only disgraces
the name of Christ.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 04/10/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
"In time we hate that which we often fear." -- Shakespeare
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 11 Apr 96 13:01:21
EID:e545 208b6820
MSGID: 1:271/460 316d3b2a
REPLY: 1:3615/1.11 31629253
Wednesday April 03 1996 14:58, David Worrell mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>>>> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
KM>>>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
NS>>> Oh, so Kenneth Mcabee is the Lord my God now? My, we _do_ put
NS>>> on airs, don't we?
KM>> Joining the ranks of those that must take everything said out of
KM>> context?
DW> What did he take out of context? You have been told many times that
we are
DW> not testing your God - we are *testing* you. You seem to think that
you
DW> are God.
And if I drank who would I be testing?
DW> I'll pour, will you drink?
Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however anytime
one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign, he refused,
he would not give them the sign that they requested directly of him. We
know
Christ by the things that he did, the signs were those miracles that he
performed for the faithful, not for the unfaithful. Since a Christian is
someone who is suppose to be following in the footsteps of Christ, we are
suppose to do those things that he told us to do, and to follow his examples
of what to do and when to do it. His example of what to do when the
unfaithful ask for a sign such as drinking poison is very clear. He would
not give it, therefore, following his example, we will not give it. How
can
you tell a Christian then? By the things that they do, not the things that
you demand of them to do. Matthew 4:7 "Jesus said unto him, it is written
again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." That's pretty clear, we are
not
to tempt the Lord, to mix a drink of poison just to drink it, to prove that
we
have faith, would be tempting God. It would be us, the Christian, saying
to
God, go ahead protect us like you said you would, that would be us seeking
a
sign from God, just as you do. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I
will
not drink you mixture, but not because of what you claim, that I do not
have
faith, but because I do have faith, and I do believe in the Word of God,
not
just one or two verses, but all of the Word of God. And that includes the
part
that says "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (In case
you
can't remember thats in Luke 16:31) So according to the Bible, since you
refuse
to have faith to start with, you would not believe even if I drank it, died,
and came back to life! No, I will not drink for you, you will not tempt
me
enough to make me tempt my God. Your disclaiming my faith, will not make
me
unfaithful, it does not change the fact that if when I die, I will spend
eternity with Lord forever, and when those that do not have faith in him
before they die, die, that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire,
where the beast and false prophet will be.......
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Apostate
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:57:19
EID:0313 208b6720
MSGID: 1:271/460 316d3a51
REPLY: 1:157/200 851404d8
Wednesday April 03 1996 13:12, Kevin D. Mckenzie mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> SR>> Steve rolls his eyes, sighs once again and holds the mirror up
KM> SR>> to reflect the face of the young Kenny fundy with apparently no
KM> SR>> memory. "There...THAT is a fundy. Recognize yourself, now?"
KM>> Ken rolls his eyes, sighs once again and holds up the dictionary
KM>> to Steve......
KDM> Ken: when did English first become a language? When, Ken? Give a
KDM> decade, or a century, but answer the damn question.
Good question, why don't you enlighten me, or make your point and get it
over with?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 11 Apr 96 13:03:22
EID:d05e 208b6860
MSGID: 1:271/460 316d3bc7
REPLY: 1:3615/1.11 3162a55e
Wednesday April 03 1996 16:19, David Worrell mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>>>>> that no matter what you are told, you will always consider
KM>>>>>> what someone says that has faith, a lie, no matter what you
KM>>>>>> are told.
DW>>>>> See what I mean? You couldn't be more wrong. Run back into your
DW>>>>> hole and throw some babble verses at me now, li'l fundy.
KM>>>> Really David? You've yet to prove it any differently.
DW>>> You've told me that you were married and have at least one child,
DW>>> if I remember correctly. I did not consider that to be a lie. By
DW>>> your statement above, this must mean that you have no faith. If
DW>>> you had faith, then I would have considered your statement a lie,
DW>>> right?
DW>>> Do you enjoy showing your stupidity to the world, Ken?
KM>> Do you enjoy deleting stuff from messages just to make people look
KM>> stupid David?
DW> Either present the alleged context that I deleted that changed the meaning
DW> of your message, or stop flinging baseless assertions around.
I have better things to do with my time and hard drive space then to archieve
every message that comes through my system David. But you and I both know
what I was talking about, or are you going to continue to deny the truth?
DW> Lying is a sin, Kenneth.
'bout time you learnt that lesson. NOW that you know that there is sin,
do you know what the price for sin is?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Fearlessly Facing Fallaci
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:53:16
EID:40f7 208b66a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 316d3937
REPLY: 1:215/130 000b4a26
Wednesday April 03 1996 10:01, Elliott Finesse mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
EF> That's very convincing! Just saying it's _true_ without a bit of evidence.
Have plenty of evidence, it's called the scriptures or the Holy Bible.
EF> I almost wanted to believe you. However, in the future, try just a _tiny_
EF> bit harder to come up with something - other than your very own personal
EF> authority - to demonstrate that the assertions of others are incorrect.
Sorry I have no authority, only Christ does.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:54:17
EID:87c5 208b66c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 316d39b4
REPLY: 1:215/130 000b4a2f
Wednesday April 03 1996 10:01, Elliott Finesse mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
EF> Yeah, I guess if no credibility is no problem to you. When you kiss
off
EF> rational thought (or did you think committing logical fallacies was
EF> "rational?) don't expect anyone else to take you seriously.
Elliott,
Kiss off rational thought. OK, let's be rational for a moment. 2000 years
ago they did not have TV, VCR's, Camcorders, Cassette recorders or any other
kind of electronic recording device. If Christ actually walked on the earth,
and did die for our sins, then return to the place from whence he came,
then how would it have been recorded?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 11 Apr 96 12:58:20
EID:0159 208b6740
MSGID: 1:271/460 316d3ae6
REPLY: 1:157/200 8514050b
Wednesday April 03 1996 13:32, Kevin D. Mckenzie mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> KM>>> But that's your opinion isn't it?
KM> KD>> Actually? It's not opinion, it's fact. Anything which lists only
KM> KD>> 2 options when there are other logical options is a false
KM> KD>> dichotomy.
KM>> There is only two options, period, fancy words won't change that
KM>> fact.
KDM> Fine. Why isn't there a third option: a god other then the Biblical
KDM> one?
I believe in the Bible specifically the KJV, from what I've seen, read,
experienced so far all other forms of religion are false. Even some so called
Christian religions and those Christians that follow those so called religions
are false. If I suddendly saw that the one God that I