God Damned Fundies!
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 10 Apr 96 00:47:58
EID:6420 208a05e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 316b50ad
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 70428536
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Kinda like sex, when you think about it ... :)
JS> I don't know...ask the lovely Wilbur...I'm usually in for the long
JS> haul.
Doesn't this activity usually take two people? So where have you
been when your wife has been getting all this experience to talk about?
Just curious
Sue
... I have a collect call from Reality. Will you accept...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 10 Apr 96 00:59:59
EID:f314 208a0760
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 316b50ae
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89544393
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
MH> I find I stand in some confusion over how to respond. I feel no joy
MH> in a "kill," as there is no victory won here. Anyone who thinks there
MH> is is misguided.
Ah, but there is a victory here, Michael, though I do not think this
is a "kill". The victory is that Lynda has come one step closer to
defining a system of belief that she can live with in her life, and it is
Lynda's victory if she cares to claim it.
MH> You are a Christian in a more philosophical sense. I think you
MH> sincerely try to live out Christ's teachings, although -- as you know
MH> -- I think you have a tendency to be a bit too pleased with yourself
MH> and disparaging of others.
Actually, I find that you have these problems more than she does, at
least in responses here in Holysmoke.
My 2 cents.
Sue
... I don't serve Satan; I don't have the recipe!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: drool game
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:19:00
EID:dd43 2088a260
MSGID: 1:128/50.0 316a43b5
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 298b99e2
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
Fredric was discussing drool game over in the corner...
MH> Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing
MH> thin. So I'm going to liven it up with a little game.
He has patience? Hmmmmmm.....
dc> Gee, that's nice. Are you leaving and coming back under an alias?
FR> What's so cool is that the buttmunch is pretending that any of us
FR> would even _notice_ were he to leave. He's trying to pretend that
Heck! I disappear from time to time, but there is usually a reason for
this. (Mostly, I don't have time to wade thru a bazillion messages from
morons... present company excluded.)
... ... Essential Wiccan software: Hex Calculator.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: Merlins Hideaway (1:128/50)
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Fred has daity constructs!
|Date: 08 Apr 96 20:13:00
EID:8cd2 2088a1a0
MSGID: 1:128/50.0 316a43b4
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 298b99e1
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
Fredric was discussing Fred has daity constructs! over in the corner...
FR> Hey, I should sue Jim for slander, claiming that I'm just as ignorant
FR> and superstitious as he is.
I don't believe one word of it!!!
... FOR SALE: 1 set of morals, never used, will sell cheap.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: Merlins Hideaway (1:128/50)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Divine Retribution
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:57:16
EID:c5dc 208a7f20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316c129b
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Craig Divine Retribution wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MC> God is not mocked Trinity! Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart tried to
MC> make a fool out of God, and look what happened to them.
Better still, you're making an ass out of yourself. Where is your god?
... Smile. See? Stupid people will do anything anyone tells them to do.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: Mind Control
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:57:16
EID:6bbc 208a7f20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316c129c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Larry Jansen Mind Control wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LJ> Did you ever notice how the Jews try make themselves look like
LJ> victims? This way they can subvert nations with impunity. They are
now
Did you ever notice how you're too fucking cowardly to post consistently
with the same name?
LJ> "dragging out" the fabricated Holocaust again. Why don't we ever hear
Fabricated? Tell it to my history prof.; he works for the Canadian
government getting evidence against Nazis for war crimes.
LJ> about the "real" holocaust: where 65 million Chinese were murdered
by
LJ> Mao, or the 40 million Russians who were slaughtered by the Bolsheviks
LJ> and the Jews.
You'll be hard-pressed to link the Jews to the deaths of the Chinese under
Mao--just as you will be to link 'em to Stalin killing 40 million of his
subjects. Go ahead and drag out your evidence. Or are you afraid?
... Larry's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mike Archer
|Sub: Warning!
|Date: 10 Apr 96 15:57:16
EID:8c4c 208a7f20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 316c129d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mike Archer Warning! wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MA> Demons come as angels of light. Put your faith in Jesus, he is the
MA> way, the truth, and the life.
I'd ask you to substantiate this, but you and I both know that you haven't
anything but bullshit to base it on.
... Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is ETERNAL.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian...
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:56f6 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 09603724
JG>made you whole". There is power in faith.
There is also power in delusion.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus loves you. But then again, so does Barney.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:13c0 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 39f701d4
LB>your right in that sometimes it is very hard to tell from a distant if
some
LB>oneis a "true Christian" by his actions and words. So, Like you said,
we wil
Well, we are so very fortunate to have you around to let us know which
ones are and which aren't.
LB>and in both of these above cases, there true nature sooner or later came
out
LB>toshow how far from being Christ like they truly were. That happens
to the
Well, I guess all married 'christians' aren't 'true christians';
they're VERY unlike Jesus...
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:b0f7 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org cd748863
LB>large sea. There was also no rain before the flood. Also, not only
was
How did plants survive, moron?
LB>there rain coming down, but the discription says that the well springs
LB>of the earth opened up. So, we had a flatter earth, rain coming down
LB>and water coming up violently from below the earth, so as little as 3
LB>inch of rain an hour for 40 days would cover the earth (we had close
to
LB>that in Iowa in 1993). Also, this would have broke up the land mass,
and
No. You are lying. There was about 170 inches of rain in the summer
of 93 in the upper Miss. valley. Not the 2880 inches you're claiming.
LB>brought about mountains from the violent earthquakes that would have
LB>happened when the well springs of the earth was openned.
LB> I do agree that this is all speculation, but it does fit the
LB>observed present state of the earth, along with plate techtonics.
No, it does not fit. You are lying again.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundy brains for rent. Never used. Call 555-2132
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: DINOSAURS?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:6df9 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 0f05181d
LB>temple has nouthing to do with family geneology. I am a student of
^^^^^^^^^
LB>geneology, and can tell you that most jewish families still have records
^^^^^^^^^
That's nice. Too bad you can't even spell it.
LB> We do know that all people are descendents of Noah, we also know
Bullshit. 'We' know no such thing.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundys knee-deep in gasoline tossing matches at infidels.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Easter
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:88bf 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 5a3afaf6
AH>It's Easter, folks. About 2,000 years ago, Jesus came out of his hole,
and
AH>saw his shadow. Six weeks of bad weather followed.
BWAAHAHAHAAA...koff, spit...
damn you, you owe me a keyboard...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Once you get over the hill, you really pick up speed.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: EPISTEMOLOGY
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:0133 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 26340176
LB> I feel that you have oversimplified quantum theory. Even under
LB>Quantum physics, the existance of substance is still there, but what
it
LB>says is that on a small scale we cannot directly measure it. So, we
LB>deal with probabilities of existance. In term of electrons, this says
LB>that 95% of the time the electron is in close orbit of the nucleus of
You didn't give attribution for this plagiaristic drivel.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Science
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:4b4a 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 05e0594b
JH> THESE ARE ACTUAL EXCERPTS FROM
JH> STUDENT SCIENCE EXAM PAPERS (so goes the claim...):
JH> When you smell an odorless gas, it is probably carbon monoxide.
Dammit, you owe me a keyboard!
---
* OLX 2.2 * Pat is a Loose Buchanan.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:53:00
EID:7620 208a56a0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org ccf6be0d
JG>those of igneous rock. You would be hard pressed to find a mountain
JG>over 10,000 years old, however. BTW, have you heard about the
You *are* joking, right?
NO???!!!!
Then you're a moron.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundy brains for rent. Never used. Call 555-2132
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Grant Farrington
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Very much mythology!
|Date: 10 Apr 96 14:09:58
EID:092e 208a7120
MSGID: 3:640/201.3 316bc2dd
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 308d7b01
Hello Fredric.
06 Apr 96 13:52, Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Germiquet:
FR> Which merely serves to prove my point. No one can learn the origins
FR> of the classical Christanic mythologies and remain a believer in same.
This is one of the big problems IMO. There's so much "control code" built
into the Bible to keep believers away from searching out the truth. Everything
they do, all study ect is all handed down by thier masters. Reading anything
else, like science journals for instance, is deemed bad as everyone knows
this is Satan's world so everything not connected to worshiping Jehovah
is of Satan.
I haven't met a believer yet who thought that science wasn't bad. How could
they think anything else ? Science ridicules most of what the Bible says.
Grant
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta6 UNREG
* Origin: Wild Magic BBS Hervey Bay Qld OZ (3:640/201.3)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Jesus The Christ
|To: Jesus Christ
|Sub: Blowing holy smoke?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 14:21:12
EID:a045 208a72a0
MSGID: 3:640/201.3 316bc425
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 64ee37df
Hello Jesus.
06 Apr 96 21:26, Jesus Christ wrote to Fredric Rice:
FR>> Nowhere in history has there ever been anything written by a
FR>> "Jesus Christ."
JC> Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find a decent publisher?
You must be one of these imposters daddy told me about :)
Grant
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta6 UNREG
* Origin: Wild Magic BBS Hervey Bay Qld OZ (3:640/201.3)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Norse mythology
|Date: 10 Apr 96 22:16:14
EID:410b 208ab200
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16c41916
REPLY: 1:116/19 035E0BC0
Hello Al!
Al Schroeder wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
AS> NEVERTHELESS, the whole point of Valhalla, for instance, was
AS> to have the best soldiers with Odin and the Aesir during the
AS> fight with the forces of evil during Ragnarok. Practically
AS> everything long-term Odin did was with Ragnarok in mind.
Maybe not so much 'forces of evil' as the older gods. The various
monsters in the mythology, generally classified as jaetter, are
believed to be remnants of an even older religion, and are thus
seen as something undesirable.
I wonder why Valhalla has such interest for most people. Nobody
seems to care about Gimle (where all the good and just people
wind up) or Naastrand (where oath-breakers and murderers spend
their time wading through rivers of poison). And as Ragnarok
means 'destiny of the goods' Odin should have been wise enough
to realize the fighters of Valhalla could not change his destiny.
This is really the alpha and omega of the norse mentality:
destiny and truthfulness - not foreboding and doom.
AS> To say nothing of his part in the death of Balder, and his
AS> keeping Hel from giving Balder up, by being the one person
AS> (in the guise of an old woman) to keep Balder in.
AS> There is nothing comparable in Greek mythology to the
AS> sense of foreboding doom here.
It is only doom for the old world order. Don't forget that
after Ragnarok several gods survive (Vidar, Tor's sons et al),
Balder and Hoeder come back from Hel, a pair of humans have kept
alive by eating dew, and best of all, the sun has given birth
to a daughter more radiant than ever. The world is getting a
new and better chance, and the remaining Asa gods will live
contentedly in Idavolde. THE END :-)
This is where the story finishes - and the norsemen came under
the influence of Christianity.
I like very much the practicality of the vikings during this
period... back home on the range they honored their old gods
as was their custom, but when they went in viking they were
baptized (again and again) so 'White Christ' could give them
victory. Different gods for different locations.
Have you ever seen Ingmar Bergman's "The Virgin Source"?
Even though it is basically a Crusader/Black Death story it
also gives the mood in North Scandinavia at a time where the
old religion was still secretly practiced by the lower classes.
I also have a gut feeling the old religion suited our mentality
better than Christianity does. 'Turn the other cheek' sounds
downright insane and dishonorable to many of us, and plenty of
the characters in OT would have been outlawed, and slain by any
respectable person. The whole Middle Eastern slant makes it
very difficult to cope with.
AS> I think I have shown my knowledge of Norse mythology is a
AS> little more extensive than that of Wagnerian operas.
You certainly have done so - my assumption was quite wrong
and I hope you forgive me (BTW I do like Wagner).
... Greetings from Mimi
PS: BTW, I always name my Rottweilers from the mythology:
Fafner, Erda, Embla, Odin. Odin and Embla are presently in
residens, but Fafner was my greatest love.... a 75kg giant.
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Flood Impossibilities.
|Date: 11 Apr 96 00:12:09
EID:cd60 208b0180
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 16c41917
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8959438E
Hello Michael!
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
MM> and I think that really closes the chapter. Faith and/or illusions
MM> on one side, scientific methodology on the other - and never shall
MM> they meet or convince each other.
MH> Neither do they need be divergent. The prevailing
MH> philosophy in modern science closes the door on the
MH> supenatural without justification. That limits the range of
MH> answers scientists can consider to any question.
MH> That you relegate the supernatural to "faith and/or
MH> illusions" means that you accept the prevailing scientific
MH> philosophy. That attitude, rather than the truth, is
MH> responsible for much of the perceived conflict between the two.
Hey, don't put an attitude stamp on me. None of us know THE TRUTH.
"Faith and/or illusions" have this in common that they are concepts
of the mind, without any ironclad physical proof - which is why I
used them opposite scientific methodology (which DOES demand proof).
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: WHAT IS A RELIGION?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 01:44:03
EID:673f 208a0d80
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 3217594d
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
> atheism (n) 1. a disbelief in the existence of deity. 2.
> the doctrine that there is no deity.
>
> atheist (n) 1. one who denies the existence of God.
>
> What do the atheists (if any) on this board believe? Maybe
> I do not really understand what someone here is saying when
> they refer to themselves as an atheist. I'm looking for
> honest answers, and flames will be scoffed at and then
> deleted into cyber-oblivion.
I don't know what faith you are, but I'll assume you are some flavor of
Christian. If I was to define a Christian like this:
Christian (n) 1. One who denies the existence of
the god Zulex, supreme ruler of
everything. 2. The doctrine that
says Zulex does not exist.
That would be an accurate definition of a Christian, since they believe
there is no entity beyond their triune god. Yet what is wrong about this
definition is that it seeks to define in terms of what Christians *don't*
believe, instead of what they *do* believe in.
Now look back at the dictionary definitions you offered. All three define
atheism not in terms of what is believed, but in terms of what *isn't* believed.
As an atheist, I don't believe in a god. I can't prove a god does or doesn't
exist any more than a Christian can prove Zulex does or doesn't exist.
The existence (or not) of a god however really has little to do with my
beliefs as an atheist.
What do I, and other atheists believe in then? The following definition
comes from American Atheists, Inc. It is generic, because the atheist community
is diverse. But there are some things I think we'll agree on. This definition
works for me:
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which
unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at
establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by
experience and the scientific method, independent of all
arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.
And since Atheism is so closely linked with the philosophy of
Materialism, a definition of Materialism follows:
Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent
conscious purpose; that it governed by its own inherent,
immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no
supernatural interference in human life; that man-- finding
his resources within himself-- can and must create his own
destiny.
Materialism restores to man his dignity and his intellectual
integrity. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth
and strive always to improve it. It holds that man is
capable of creating a social system based on reason and
justice.
Materialism's "faith" is in man and man's ability to
tranform the world culture by his own efforts. This is a
commitment which is in it's very essence life-asserting. It
considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation
and impossible without noble ideas that inspire man to bold,
creative works. Materialism holds that humankind's
potential for good and for an outreach to more fulfilling
cultural development is, for all practical purposes,
unlimited.
We'll, that's one view, anyway. I am defined by what I believe in, not
by what I *don't* believe in. As usual, the dictionary defines the *common*
use of words. The dictionary is a language reference, not a philosophical
reference.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Christian? God demands you kill me. Write for details! (1:2613/102)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: CDA Court Challenge: Update #5
|Date: 10 Apr 96 12:32:47
EID:0a03 208a6400
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 16be5166
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Declan McCullagh (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty parker.
Original dated: Apr 10 '96, 12:14
From: Declan McCullagh
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CDA Challenge, Update #5
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Declan McCullagh / declan@well.com / Redistribute freely
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this update: Yet Another CDA Lawsuit: Fred Cherry v. Janet Reno
Deception and deceit from DoJ's Jason Baron
URLs for the DoJ's dirty picture list
The true identity of Grey Flannel Suit
April 9, 1996
PITTSBURGH, PA -- Fred Cherry wants a Federal court to uphold his
right to flame.
Lambasting "homonazis" on USENET is his inalienable right under the
First Amendment, argues the notorious netizen in his anti-CDA lawsuit
filed yesterday in New York City on behalf of "Johns and Call Girls
United Against Repression, Inc."
Cherry's beef with the law is that under its ban on "indecency," when
he gets flamed by "Australian homosexual nazis" he won't be able to
flame back. His complaint charges that his "Australian opponent will
have MORE freedom of speech" than he does -- unless the CDA is struck
down.
The self-taught amateur lawyer attached 20 pages of net.flamage as his
sole exhibit. One example that was spammed all the way from soc.men to
alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now: "Your ass is so blocked up
that you do need some therapeutic relief for your constipation -- a
condition which has backlogged all the shit right back up into your
head, Fred."
The indefatigable Cherry replied:
So, ramming a huge dick up my ass would be a therapeutic measure,
would it? You homos are the chief cause of AIDS in the United
States with your huge dicks being rammed up each other's asses. And
then you homos go around whining that the government isn't doing
enough to find a cure for AIDS. [12/22/95]
Ya gotta love this guy. He sent me mail describing his legal strategy,
concluding: "Can anyone deny that I am indeed the greatest amateur
lawyer since Caryl Chessman?" Of course Chessman -- California's "Red
Light Bandit" rapist -- was executed in 1960, his jailhouse lawyering
failing him in the end.
Cherry's lawsuit was easy to prepare. He grabbed the ACLU's complaint
from their web site, printed it out, added a few grafs about his
net.nazi adversaries, and trotted off to Federal court. When Cherry
filed his suit, which he's moved from Brooklyn to Federal court in
Manhattan, he wrote:
I am primarily a political activist, working for the repeal of laws
criminalizing adult prostitution and the patronizing of adult
prostitutes. Over the past thirty years I have found that, in the
United States, homosexuals are the worst enemies of the civil
rights of women prostitutes and their male clients.
The Cherry v. Reno case, refiled at docket number 96 Civ. 2498, most
likely will be consolidated with the American Reporter case, which is
also moving forward in the U.S. Second Circuit Court of Appeals.
A.R. editor Joe Shea will probably fight it. Shea refused to join our
lawsuit because he can't stand the ACLU and wants to do his own thing,
so he'll probably try to keep Cherry's case from being joined with
his. In fact, he accused the ACLU of putting Cherry up to it.
+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
I would never have suspected the DoJ attorneys of trying to deceive
Federal judges, but now I wonder.
The DoJer I've had the most contact with is Jason Baron, a short,
portly guy who tries to land roundhouse punches during
cross-examination but instead keeps slipping up on technical terms. He
also wrote the Justice Department's reply to our initial complaint. In
that brief, the Civil Division lawyer uncritically cited Marty Rimm's
cyberporn study -- featured last summer on the cover of TIME magazine
-- as an authoritative reference on net.smut:
This article describes material located primarily on USENET
newsgroups, i. at 1865-76, and on adult commercial bulletin boards
(BBS), i. at 1876-1905. Defendants offer this as an initial reference
of the availability and nature of obscene and indecent material from
some on-line sources, such as USENET and BBS. [sic]
Maybe Baron thought nobody would notice. But there's no excuse for not
knowing that the study was deliberately fraudulent: The New York Times
printed an editorial exposing it; Rimm's connections with "family
values" groups have come to light; Donna Hoffman and I run extensive
web sites debunking the study; Carnegie Mellon University claims to be
investigating the ethical misdeeds of their former undergraduate.
Even attorneys who used to work within Baron's division of the Justice
Department complain that Baron deliberately foisted this fraud off on
Federal judges:
I'm embarrassed... They should have mentioned that the "study" came
under heavy critical fire almost immediately upon release. I trust
the opposition will make hay of this omission. In this context, this
"study" is not just another controversial report, but one whose
provenance is well known to be in doubt among the relevant actors.
That much should have been ackowledged in the quoted footnote, at
least along the lines of, "While the methodology of this study has
been challenged, defendants believe it to represent..." etc. [4/7/96]
By citing this study and appending its complete text without informing
the court that it was a hoax, Baron revealed the impoverished ethics
of the Justice Department. Interestingly, the Code of Professional
Responsibility and the Rules of Professional Conduct make it a
disciplinable offense for a lawyer to "knowingly use perjured
testimony or false evidence." Under Title 11, attorneys can be
sanctioned for introducing false evidence.
Perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised by all this. After all, Baron is
the same attorney who confuses EFF with IETF -- not to mention his
additional duties as the DoJ's courtroom-cop. Recall that when I was
asking the mysterious Grey Flannel Suit a question, Baron came over
and interrupted us. Now I've learned that he's threatening to report
me to "higher authorities" if I talk to his witnesses again. (!)
Yeah, Grey Flannel Suit is going to take the stand. He's none other
than the DoJ's cybersexpert witness -- Special Agent Howard A.
Schmidt from the Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
Guess that explains why Baron was so desperate to keep me from talking
with him the other day.
Baron's authoritarian streak showed again during the March 21 hearing,
when I joined some members of the press in paging through the ACLU's
copy of the DoJ's dirty pictures binder. Baron charged over and
snatched it away, snarling: "Not available to the public." Well, the
URLs ended up in my mailbox anyway, so here they are for your
amusement:
http://www.pu55y.com/hotsex/join.html
http://shack.bianca.com/shack/misc/terms.html
http://www.intergate.net/untmi/obbs1.html
http://www.whitman.edu/~burkotwt/pornpics/lady941.jpg
http://www.wizard.com/~gl944vx/gifs/01_21.jpg
http://www.vegaslive.com/sgguests/ginger.html
news:4hrs89k%24oap@what.why.net
http://monkey.hooked.net/monkey/m/grinder/nikkita/graphics/nikki36.jpg
news:313F56FD.3F19@access.mountain.net
news:4hb94m%24sij@asp.erinet.com
http://www.sexvision.com/web2.htm
news:314048f.1657746@news.netwalk.com
The DoJ has full-color printouts of these images, which are sexually
explicit but *not* obscene -- Baron wanted to remind the court that
placing these JPEGs online publicly would not be a criminal act
without the CDA.
For someone who's defending a ban on smutty stuff on the Net, Baron is
surprisingly embarrassed to talk about it. Vanderbilt Professor Donna
Hoffman reports:
[Baron] deposed me for over 7 hours, beginning on a Monday morning
at 9am. The most interesting part of the deposition was when he
brought out several large binders and started going through some of
the material in them and looking increasingly uncomfortable.
Eventually, he spoke and started to apologize saying he might have
to show me some materials and his New England background made him
feel uncomfortable about it.
He honestly was squirming and sweating a bit and then, after a brief
lunch, we resumed and he did eventually show me some materials, but
they were not surprising or of the type that I would have thought
would make him squirm like that.
I did wonder if it was some sort of "act," but he seemed genuinely
embarassed. In hindsight, I wonder if it was because I am a woman and
that was really the part that made the idea of showing me sexually
explicit materials uncomfortable for him.
I guess that Baron is a true "gentleman" who believes that certain
topics like dirty pictures are unmentionable in mixed company.
Avoiding embarrassment is just another reason to censor the stuff!
On April 12, Grey Flannel Suit (aka Special Agent Schmidt) will take
the stand and snarf around the net for dirty pix. He'll be followed by
our last witness, MIT's Albert Vezza, and then BYU/CMU's Dan Olsen.
Stay tuned for more reports.
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
We're back in court on 4/12, possibly 4/15, 4/26 for rebuttal, and 6/3
for closing arguments.
Mentioned in this CDA update:
DoJ's brief citing Marty Rimm's cyberporn study:
Text of complaint from Fred Cherry v. Janet Reno:
Flamewar attached as exhibit to Fred Cherry v. Janet Reno:
Fred Cherry's reasons why he filed his lawsuit:
Relevant excerpt from Fred Cherry's original complaint:
Rimm ethics critique
Censorship at CMU
The American Reporter
Grey Flannel Suit
Previous cases DoJer Jason Baron worked on:
Joe Shea's complaints about ACLU wanting to "stand alone in the limelight":
This report and previous CDA Updates are available at:
To subscribe to the fight-censorship mailing list for future CDA
updates and related net.censorship discussions, send "subscribe" in
the body of a message addressed to:
fight-censorship-request@andrew.cmu.edu
Other relevant web sites:
==---------------------------------------------------------------------------
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 22:52:00
EID:5546 2087b680
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4525
PS> MG>the bible says it did.
PS> MB> Well The Bible says that the "all the fountains of the great deep
PS> MB> broken up, and the windows of heaven wer opened" Genesis 7:11
PS>Okay. We'll go easy here:
PS>A hydrosphere is the total of all water existing on earth in all of its
PS>forms (water vapor, liquid, ice) in all locations (the atmosphere, the
PS>oceans, underground, ice caps).
I understand that.
PS>Now then, if by some accident, all of the water on earth were to be in
PS>liquid form and dumped onto the surface of the earth, you'd still need
PS>two entire more hydrospheres of water to do the job the flood describes.
ok if you say so I have not looked that up.
PS>Even if you got this extra water from somewhere (where?), then it still
PS>has to go back there when the flood's over (the water cycle is a closed
PS>one, see?).
I understand that we us the same water over and over again.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * The Innocent, the Eager, and the Doomed.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 07 Apr 96 22:59:00
EID:cfb6 2087b760
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4527
KDM>MB>DC>Seems like your bible is missing something, like corroborating
KDM>MB>DC>evidence.
KDM>MB>
KDM>MB>Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
KDM>MB>science is theory.
KDM>Like what?
KDM>The Big Bang? Sorry, there's evidence for that.
very shakey evidence.
KDM>Evolution? Evidence for that, too.
Yes some really dotted lines, and a fake or two, but they have just
about got it worked out now.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Ever get the feeling your guardian angel is laughing?
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:02:00
EID:8f4b 2087b840
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4528
FR>mb> Thanks that is the best compliment I have had today.
FR>Yep, you're in the same death cult that Adolf Hitler was. Feels good,
huh?
Well their are always some miss giuded people in anything. Take a look
at some of the scientist in the world,not all of them are real nice.
In any group you can find some bad apples.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * There is no cause for alarm. And the check's in the mail
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:04:00
EID:8f4b 2087b880
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4529
FR>>> but no promises he thinks I have fell in with the devil because I
talk
FR>>> to you all.
FR>FR> That's pretty ignorant, I hope you realize.
FR>mb> That I can agree with.
FR>Welcome to all that the Christanic death cult has to offer its sheep.
Well I will have to disagree with this statment. Not all Christian
leaders are that unfair.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * We've seen the future, Sparky, and we ain't in it.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:06:00
EID:8f4b 2087b8c0
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B452A
FR>FR> Try reading it once. Then get back to us with
FR>FR> evidence that there are deities. Thanks in advance.
FR>mb> I am about a third of the way throught it in a read it in a year
plan.
FR>Don't you think it's rather silly to read a book of mythology going in
alrea
FR>believing it's describing deities that you want to exist? Aren't you
capabl
FR>of understanding that doing so is no different than picking up a Wonder
Woma
FR>Comic book and trying to find a reason to believe that Wonder Woman exists?
not realy the same thing.
FR>Why not read some SCIENCE books, Mark?
Read sevral and am only 6 hour sort of my computer programing degree.
thanks for the tip.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be law
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:08:00
EID:8f4b 2087b900
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B452B
FR>FR> I would guess that Preston isn't making that claim. In any
FR>FR> event the flood mythology's origins are well understood and
FR>FR> the physics of such an event -- were it to have happened --
FR>FR> are also well understood. Scietific method debunk mythology
FR>FR> every time.
FR>mb> Well The Physics are not that well understood to me
FR>mb> I have not looked it all up but as I understande it
FR>mb> physics change quite alot?
FR>No, physics don't change at all. The latent heat produced by precipitation
FR>described in the mythologies would easilly reach a high enough temprature
to
FR>detonate the oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere. There would be geological
FR>evidence that such an event took place, and there would be a good explanatio
FR>on where the water came from and where it all went.
FR>In any event, the myth's origins were taken from the Gilgamesh epic.
The
FR>Chinese would have noticed their own extermination had the legend been
true.
That is realy an intersting statment.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * That which does not kill me is a big fat chicken, nyahh..
* LAKOTA v1.5
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:09:00
EID:9267 2087b920
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B452C
KD> MB> Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
KD> MB> science is theory.
KD>Would you get the REAL definition of theory before you continue posting
KD>on this issue?
Ok.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * ASCII Snake: -*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'~`^`'~*-,._.,-*:>
* LAKOTA v1.5
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 07 Apr 96 23:10:00
EID:2154 2087b940
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B452D
DC> DC> DC> MB> Factual. Thats what I belive in.
DC> DC> DC>Then, Mark, do provide the evidence that supports that global
DC> DC> MB> No I have no evidence other than the Bible.
DC> DC>Seems like your bible is missing something, like corroborating
DC> DC>evidence.
DC> MB> Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
DC> MB> science is theory.
DC>What you are talking about are hypothesis, which does not have
DC>anywhere near the import of a theory, let alone a law. You need
DC>a primer on the basic scientific approach to facts and evidence
DC>and prediction.
Ok I will take a look at one.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * (A)bort, (R)etry, (S)mack the friggin thing
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Someone please lend Mr. B
|Date: 07 Apr 96 22:57:00
EID:fe95 2087b720
MSGID: 1:3819/163 316B4526
PS> PS>He's a geologist. His opinion in this field carries quite a bit more
PS>weight
PS> PS>than yours does.
PS> MB> I see.
PS>Yup. He usually jumps up and down on people like you pretty hard. Me,
I'm
PS>trying to be a nice guy about this.
Thanks, Me I just want to have some good conversation.
PS> PS> MB> Well it would seam that we all came from that area anyway.
PS> PS>Only if "that area" includes Africa.
PS> MB> Ok.
PS>Cradle of humanity and all that, you know. Civilization as we know it
was
PS>established in the Fertile Crescent (Tigris-Euphrates area). Humanity
as
PS>we know it probably came out of Africa.
works for me.
PS> PS>Which is still a pity, since the Bible is still at variance with
reality
PS>on
PS> PS>this point.
PS> MB> Well maybe one day we will find an anser that we can all agree on.
PS>Perhaps, but I rather like my answer. Sure, it doesn't provide comfort
or
PS>inspire faith, but it's the truth as far as we know.
Inspired faith is not allways an easy comfort to have, but it is allways
a good comfort to have. The Lord never promised to make it easy but he
did promise that He would be their for us in the end. I'm not looking
for Faith to take away my proublems I am looking to faith to give me a
final solution.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Highballing the skyways between the stars
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 10 Apr 96 12:19:05
EID:ec6e 208a6260
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 316c89df
AH> Whilst masticating on , Rob Burcham (1:280/76)
AH> wrote to Roger Hunter:
RB> I wonder if Mary Magdelene resembled Claudia Schiffer?
AH> or perhaps Roseanne?
I'm thinking Fran Drescher.
... I'd rather be Herod's pig than Herod's son.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 10 Apr 96 12:19:35
EID:e09e 208a6260
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 316c89e0
AH> wrote to Mark Craig:
MC>> Your mammy is calling you.
DM> And thine (as I pointed out some time back in a message
DM> that appears to have been eaten by Fido) barks for thee. She
DM> is doubtless in heat again (it IS Monday, isn't it?).
AH> Test tubes bark now? Isn't science amazing?
Collecting hydrogen, I see...
... Give a man a beer, he'll drink for a minute; teach a man to brew...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: 19055730964
|Date: 11 Apr 96 00:26:22
EID:2a85 208b0340
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 316c89e1
JB> BTW...did you hear the news? Strom Thurmond is running again. He says
JB> 93 is NOT too old. If he sticks around maybe the fundies will have
JB> objective evidence of evolution...Strom can describe it for them from
JB> having lived long enough to see examples of it.
"Why, dammit! Whin ah wuz yar'n age, we used ta make fun
of Ol' Man Ogg because he didn't walk fully erect. It wuz
hard back then--I wuz lucky jus' ta git opposable thumbs
one Christmas..."
... "And they shall take up refrigerated serpents" --Mk.16:18 (revision)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 11 Apr 96 00:26:24
EID:bbf7 208b0340
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 316c89ec
JB> I don't understand why Judas gets such a bad rap...especially from
JB> christians. If the whole idea was planned out by god in advance of the
JB> nativity, then SOMEONE would have had to take the part played by
JB> Judas. Without the betrayal, in some form, the crucifixion would not
JB> have been as likely to take place...leaving no room for a resurrection.
JB> Judas is only a step below Jesus in importance when it comes to that
JB> event. So why does christianity teach that Judas is in hell?
So Christians will get used to the idea that they can pretty
much wind up there just for God's own jollies.
... fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Alien
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:08:16
EID:7e1a 208a5100
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651cbc59
* Original To : Don Allen, 1:30873/2
* Original From: Bud Jamison, 1:202/746
* Original Area: UFO
* Original Date: Mar 30 11:52
* Forwarded on by J.J. Hitt of 1:106/9788.2
_________
Paleoanthropology Division
Smithsonian Institute
207 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20078
Dear Sir:
Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labeled "211-D,
layer seven, next to the clothesline post. Hominid skull." We have given
this specimen a careful and detailed examination, and regret to inform
you that we disagree with your theory that it represents "conclusive
proof of the presence of Early Man in Charleston County two million
years ago." Rather, it appears that what you have found is the head of a
Barbie doll, of the variety one of our staff, who has small children,
believes to be the "Malibu Barbie". It is evident that you have given a
great deal of thought to the analysis of this specimen, and you may be
quite certain that those of us who are familiar with your prior work in
the field were loathe to come to contradiction with your findings.
However, we do feel that there are a number of physical attributes of
the specimen which might have tipped you off to it's modern origin:
1. The material is molded plastic. Ancient hominid remains are typically
fossilized bone.
2. The cranial capacity of the specimen is approximately 9 cubic
centimeters, well below the threshold of even the earliest identified
proto-hominids.
3. The dentition pattern evident on the "skull" is more consistent with
the common domesticated dog than it is with the "ravenous man-eating
Pliocene clams" you speculate roamed the wetlands during that time. This
latter finding is certainly one of the most intriguing hypotheses you
have submitted in your history with this institution, but the evidence
seems to weigh rather heavily against it. Without going into too much
detail, let us say that:
A. The specimen looks like the head of a Barbie doll
that a dog has chewed on.
B. Clams don't have teeth.
It is with feelings tinged with melancholy that we must deny your
request to have the specimen carbon dated. This is partially due to the
heavy load our lab must bear in it's normal operation, and partly due to
carbon dating's notorious inaccuracy in fossils of recent geologic
record. To the best of our knowledge, no Barbie dolls were produced
prior to 1956 AD, and carbon dating is likely to produce wildly
inaccurate results. Sadly, we must also deny your request that we
approach the National Science Foundation's Phylogeny Department with the
concept of assigning your specimen the scientific name "Australopithecus
spiff-arino." Speaking personally, I, for one, fought tenaciously for
the acceptance of your proposed taxonomy, but was ultimately voted down
because the species name you selected was hyphenated, and didn't really
sound like it might be Latin.
However, we gladly accept your generous donation of this fascinating
specimen to the museum. While it is undoubtedly not a hominid fossil, it
is, nonetheless, yet another riveting example of the great body of work
you seem to accumulate here so effortlessly. You should know that our
Director has reserved a special shelf in his own office for the display
of the specimens you have previously submitted to the Institution, and
the entire staff speculates daily on what you will happen upon next in
your digs at the site you have discovered in your back yard. We eagerly
anticipate your trip to our nation's capital that you proposed in your
last letter, and several of us are pressing the Director to pay for it.
We are particularly interested in hearing you expand on your theories
surrounding the "trans-positating fillifitation of ferrous ions in a
structural matrix" that makes the excellent juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex
femur you recently discovered take on the deceptive appearance of a
rusty 9-mm Sears Craftsman automotive crescent wrench.
Yours in Science,
Harvey Rowe
... Open the pod bay door, Hal.
--- ProBoard v2.12 [Reg]
* Origin: Zooming in San Diego, 619-277-4140 (1:202/746)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: All
|Sub: Dig dis shit!
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:23:46
EID:2fec 208a52e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651ce5b2
REPLY: 3:711/933 3166f1a3
Anthony Grigor-Scott to Mark Craig:
MC>> Nero committed suicide by stabbing himself in the throat
MC>> (wounded head of the beast).
AG> Tommy rot! You're way off-course in your guesswork and
AG> placing yourself in the category of those you condemn.
AG> You are not a prophet and no prophet ever breathed such an
AG> interpretation.
MC>> We are now approaching the end of the millennium (age of
MC>> the Gentiles).
AG> Make up your mind whether you are talking of the end of the
AG> second Millenia AD, or the thousand years' peace when Christ
AG> and the sainst dwell on earth.
I love this!
The racist nutballs can't agree on which of their numbers are
True Racist Nutballs and who are merely False Racist Nutball
Scum.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE O
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:42:19
EID:f044 208a5540
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651d0db3
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 145caf60
JH>> I think the subject header is inaccurate.
JH>> It's looks like they lost their U not the O.
RB> LOL! You kill me, Hitt.
The world is bad enough with Boy Scouts, we have no need for
Boy Scots.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 10 Apr 96 10:44:19
EID:e4f0 208a5580
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651d2ee8
REPLY: 1:116/19 0373C4B0
On Apr 08 05:07 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> So it is harder for a homeless person to GET a home, even if
AS> they have the cash, then a person who already has an apartment.
AS> It costs more, and consequently, fewer of them make it, and the
AS> spiral starts anew. Or at least that's what HE said. You and
AS> Marilyn HAVE been homeless. Is that the real deal, or not?
Marilyn delivered an excelent sermon on how to make the transition
in a 1950's economy.
A point I should have included in my prior message, but
unfortunately left to inference is that assistance (in the form
of helping a person get a job other than spot labor and setting
them up in a dwelling) isn't an absolute necessity but there
is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in making the transition
any more difficult than it already is. I view such aide as an
investment, a rather good investment.
Yes, making the transition from a cheap hotel, boarding house or
room-by-the-week to a "real" appartment is not without difficulties,
but they are far less than getting and keeping that job with a
weekly paycheck.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:11:21
EID:e4f0 208a5960
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 651d7af4
REPLY: 1:116/19 0373A066
On Apr 08 06:03 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS>> Although guerilla movements, with simple weapons, can overthrow
AS>> even goverments these days...
PS>> The government has to be substantially distracted elsewhere (as
PS>> in the case of seriously fighting a war or two with someone
PS>> else or having leadership so incompetent that it's a
PS>> distraction itself) for any revolution from within to work.
AS> But it's not hard to seet up a distraction for a goverment.
AS> Goverment by its very nature tries to spread itself pretty thin,
AS> and even when a goverment can have the backing of a major power
AS> (South Vietnam comes to mind) it cannot stop the corruption
AS> within. But you're right, such a distraction IS needed. Luckily,
AS> for revolutionaries, international relations make such
AS> "distractions" very common.
You're both missing a very important factor.
For a revolution to be successful IT HAS TO HAVE popular support.
A few guys with guns running loose do not take over a country.
It's only when they are fed, armed, hidden and cared-for by
the populace at large do they have any chance at success.
That's one of the things that US foriegn policy has never grasped
about Cuba: Castro didn't take over Cuba, the Cubans took over
Cuba. And despite some very real human rights abuses, the vast
majority of Cubans still see it that way.
The revolutionaries may or may not live up to their promises once
in power, but the deciding factor is wether the current government
is hated or not. If people like or are even indifferent to the
government in power, they won't take the risks involved in
supporting a revolution. It's only when the current government is
hated by the at large population that a revolution has any
chance of success.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Fertility rituals!
|Date: 10 Apr 96 16:36:44
EID:2b46 208a8480
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65204cfd
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 31006399
On Apr 07 00:23 96, Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoNet wrote:
FR> Well, tonight's the night that we hide reproductive
FR> organs around the place for our offspring to search
FR> for in the morning.
Since when is an egg an "organ"?
Or do you hide chocolate dildos around the house?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 10 Apr 96 16:46:24
EID:aa7b 208a85c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6520704b
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3169712d
On Apr 08 12:04 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
DM>> Johnson Smith Company
DM>> 4514 19th Street Court East
JH>> I'm suprised they give a street address.
JH>> I have to wonder if they have a showroom.
DM> What WOULD you use with the "severed human hand" jello
DM> mold to get a display that wouldn't melt or draw flies?
DM> (Though the flies would be a pretty realistic touch.)
Don't they still sell Venus Fly Traps?
Hmmm... I wonder if there would be a market for a special catalog
of gag items for Mormons? Call it the Joseph Smith Catalog. You
could have things like X-Ray Specs that allow you to translate
ancient languages, crotchless magic underware, whiskey flasks that
look like a copy of the Book of Mormon, a blow-up Kate Smith doll
(can also be used as a swimming pool liner), Mark-of-Cain blackface
make-up kits...
[Lunch for the first is still on.]
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 11 Apr 96 02:33:30
EID:a011 208b1420
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6525ca68
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 315ffa3d
On Mar 30 22:49 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
JH>> I'm not aware that the New Testiment addresses the issue,
JH>> but I think it's a sweeping generalization to say that
JH>> Jesus hated animals. But he clearly had a thing against
JH>> dogs... and fig trees.
SA> And pigs, though Jews consider pigs unclean, anyway.
SA> (Though I still think Jesus could have just banished the
SA> daemons, and didn't need to transfer them to a herd of
SA> swine, thereafter driving the pigs over a cliff if he was
SA> oh-so-magical.)
Ah yes... I clearly remember the first time I read the Bible.
I was about ten. I was reading Matthew. I was enjoying it.
Then I came to the pig-part.
From that day on I've never really cared much for that Jesus guy.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
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|From: Selena Kerr
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 16:52:52
EID:f33c 208a8680
PID: Telegard 2.99.g4 [ml]
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31683813
MSGID: 1:252/107 316be764
TID: GE 1.11+
`07-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Selena Kerr <=-`03`03
LB> Jaw dropping...
LB> Don? Christian?! Loser?!!
LB> ROTFL! Someday, you may even figure out what you did to "deserve"
LB> this.
LB> I'd explain, but I can't get too words out together without giggling
LB> madly...
I have been stabbed in the back and insulted by christians so many times..
i can't count that high...(that is not to imply that i lack intelligence
and i can't count).. i have given up on that faith completely.. and i am
sick of them thinking that they are the best and only religion.. get off
your high horse. I don't care if i deserve it. If i give them back a fraction
of the hell that they gave me I will be happy. Wrath.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 10 Apr 96 11:43:29
EID:dd37 208a5d60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 316c6b06
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3169f2b3
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric and The were killing time yakking about Jim Staal:
FR> Jim Staal claimed that "the Rice brothers" made fun of his father's
FR> death. For this lie I shall punish Staal until he apologizes.
TR> Why? You are certainly capable of such a tactless and idiotic
TR> maneuver. On top of it all, you are enough of a shitlip to actually
do
TR> it.
He didn't, though, Jack. As a lawyer, I know you are aware that people
are
not to be found guilty of what they *could* do.
Could Fred ridicule Jim and Mark for his father's death? Of course -- anyone
could -- even the ever-patient Al is CAPABLE of it. But Fred didn't. And
I have seen other instances of him refraining, consciously, from engaging
in
behaviour that is over the top, regarding Jim himself. Even Jim is currently
aware of that.
What you see above is a dead issue, that has been dealt with by the parties
in question. Leave it lie.
"Mom and dad say I should make my life an example of the principles
I believe in. But every time I do, they tell me to stop it."
[Calvin & Hobbes]
---
TLX v4.10 A long dispute means both parties are wrong.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 10 Apr 96 06:01:18
EID:9d6a 208a3020
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 6ee41a5a
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3169bb31
On (09 Apr 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Judith Bandsma...
LB> It's doesn't matter. Think about it -- if you stand in a room
LB> full of girl scouts demanding that you're one, and they all
LB> say, "no, no -- THESE are the requirements", you have only a
LB> few choices: you can meet the requirements, you can INSIST on
LB> using the title even though it is inaccurate, or you can quit
LB> using the title.
But, in this case, is it the Girls Scouts who decide what Girl
Scouts are? I don't think so. If one hundred percent of the
Christians in the world have it wrong, they would be shouting to
the rooftops that they have it right. You KNOW that is so. We see
them crowing about "what scripture REALLY means" every day right
here in HS.
Consider something else: is scripture REALLY what a religious
experience is about? or is that just a record of the ancients'
journey toward truth? Can anybody assess the value or honesty of
somebody else's religious experience? or are we all forced to
accept at face value that FOR THEM, what they claim is true,
regardless of whether it meets our criteria or not. While I can
confidently say that Mike isn't a Christian, because he doesn't
meet the minimum criteria, I also have to just as confidently say
that in Mike's eyes, he is a Christian, and my assessment of him
is immaterial to anybody but me. I will stand by my assessment,
while at the same time recognizing the fact that it is, after all,
just my opinion and that I am not the final arbiter of what is and
is not fact. All those other Christians must also offer you that
same degree of uncertainty regarding their assessment of what a
Christian is. If they do not, they are being less than honest,
both with themselves and with you.
LB> In this situation, I am incapable of meeting the
LB> requirements. They require beliefs in things which I cannot
LB> believe, and which I am not willing to pretend to believe.
You are incapable of meeting THEIR requirements. We can't say for
sure what THE requirements actually are. All we have to go by is
an imperfect translation of what somebody else thought the
requirements were. This is an area where there is plenty of room
for disagreement among well-meaning, sincere people.
LB> The second option is dishonest, and I still flatter myself
LB> enough to be unwilling to be dishonest once it's apparent
LB> that I am doing so.
I think you've been completely candid. That's more than I can say
about most of the people who come dancing through here, claiming
to be Christians. To me, the real dishonesty is in not realizing
that one might be wrong.
LB> There isn't any choice but to accept the third option,
LB> because no one is going to change the requirements to suit
LB> me, and it would be equally unfair for me to ask them to
LB> pretend that they want to, or should, just for my sake.
They don't make the rules. They aren't a high enough authority.
You don't have to march to their drummer, despite their insistence
to the contrary.
LB> However much I think that they SHOULD rethink those
LB> requirements, I would be guilty of the arrogance Michael
LB> insists I have, were I to think that the majority is under
LB> any obligation to the minority in this matter -- they can
LB> only be persuaded, not commanded.
So, now we've established that the arrogance is theirs. No
surprise there.
JB> How far have the 'churches' come from the teachings of the
JB> book they say is their guide? How far have you?
LB> To be honest, Judith, I have been the classic example of what
LB> is called here a "Salad Bar Christian". It hasn't bothered me
LB> a bit to refrain from putting on my plate MANY of the
LB> teachings of the bible. They would say I have veered much
LB> from those teachings, and they would not be wrong.
I think you're being unnecessarily hard on yourself. Let's get
this one right: you have veered from the biblical teachings IN THE
EYES OF THOSE WHO SEE THEM DIFFERENTLY. Nothing more. Who's to say
which of you have "gotten it right"?
LB> Those portions I have tried to retain can be found in *many*
LB> religions and are also lived out in full measure by those who
LB> claim no religious faith at all. That isn't strong enough a
LB> peg to hang the word "christian" on, is it?
Yes, it is. Those who interpret things differently can be -- and
probably are -- just as far off base as they say you are. If there
be any REAL faith in the religious experience, it is the faith one
must have that they are on the "right track." And, that faith is
by definition permeated with an unshakable feeling of "I'll never
know for sure that I am on the right track; I can only walk in the
lights that have been given to me."
JB> From MY point of view, (which, admittedly, is worth only the
JB> pixels on your screen) you are closer to that ideal than any
JB> dogmatic 'church' deciding the lives of its congregation.
LB> Maybe...but that ideal is found in the hearts and actions of
LB> so many who are without the church that it's obvious that the
LB> ideal is HUMAN in origin, and not RELIGIOUS in origin.
So? Do we question from whence our enjoyment of sex comes? or are
we just thankful that we've found that joy? What you say above is
just another form of "I'm letting the ideologues decide the value
of my experience." Do you REALLY want to give them that kind of
power?
JB> By their fruits ye shall know them. Remember that when
JB> dealing with the nuts and flakes.
LB> Indeed, I will -- and take note that I am finding far more
LB> fruits on the outside of the stained glass window.
I'm concerned about you. Feel free to "talk" to me privately via
NetMail.
... Murphy's Rule of Combat: Incoming fire has the right of way.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 09 Apr 96 22:12:52
EID:a2cf 2089b180
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 cc160fa4
REPLY: 1:116/19 035DF9E6
On (07 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to All...
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Al Schroeder <=-
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
MH> Once again, Al ... please forward.
AS> I'm going to post it to "ALL" instead, if you don't mind. I
AS> said those other two would be the only things I would send
AS> directly to her to circumvent her twit filter, but you've
AS> doubtless not read that yet. so I will compromise this way.
AS> Marilyn can read this, or not, as she wishes. BTW, received
AS> an email from Dave Oosterman today, and all I can say is
AS> congratulations and good luck!
Al, don't bother posting any more of his messages either to me
or to all. He is too damned set in his ways to get the point,
anyway. He fails to see that whatever conclusion he's come to
regarding scripture has absolutely nothing to do with the issue.
The issue is that he absolutely can't allow somebody else to
see things differently without him concluding they are wrong
and treating them as though they aren't too bright for thinking
like they do.
He's a total waste of your time and mine. Leave me out of the
loop entirely from now on, please.
I don't suffer fools gladly, and he's a fool.
... Gross Ignorance: 144 times worse than ordinary ignorance.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 09 Apr 96 22:16:12
EID:06dc 2089b200
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 311f433f
REPLY: 1:116/19 031BEF92
On (07 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to J.J. Hitt...
JH> About a year ago my employer instituted a dress code. It was
JH> announced as "our new, relaxed dress code". The problem was,
JH> that prior to the announcement, we DID NOT HAVE a dress code.
JH> An almost textbook example of how to sound like you are
JH> giving people something while you actually take something
JH> from them.
AS> That's why the "Dilbert" comic strip is so funny...it shafts
AS> that sort of hypocrisy in the marketplace over and over.
AS> Anyone who has ever worked for a big company knows all too
AS> well the truth of many of "Dilbert's" objections.
We could all tell horror stories about the corporate psyche. I
work in marketing, but in the intelligence/analysis end of the
process. We attempt to get all the dope we can on our competitors
in order to develop strategy and long-range planning.
One of the analysts asked me to get some info on a client from one
of the field analysts. I called the right one, and he said that
the info in question had been given to him on pain of the death of
his first-born if he revealed it. I pointed out to him that he and
I both worked for the same organization and that it reasonably
followed that if it was okay in the client's eyes for him to have
the info, it was also okay for me to have it. I assured him that
my use of the info would be circumspect (i.e., the data would be
aggregated so nobody would be able to tell what portion of the
bottom-line number belonged to this client, and what portion
belonged to other clients who fell in the same category).
Nope. Couldn't have it. A promise was a promise. He said he could
give me a range, but he couldn't give me the number I wanted. I
told him that all we were doing was verifying some data we had in
a data base, beacause some of the numbers seemed suspicious.
The field analyst then said, "Oh! in that case, why not give me
the number YOU'VE got, and I'll tell you whether it's too high or
too low, and by how much!"
... When dueling monsters, do not become one yourself. - F. Neitzsche
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Boy Scots Finally Lose One
|Date: 10 Apr 96 18:11:47
EID:c12d 208a9160
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 4db6d9a6
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 16315452
On (Sun 31 Ma) Rick Mcfarlane wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> And that's patently unconstitutional, so long as they have the
MB> support of the Government.
RM> So why did the government give them support, then?
Because Congress is a bunch of jerks who will pander to the
religious segment of our society in order to garner favor on
election day. That is why we have groups like the Freedom
From Religion Foundation, American Civil Liberties Union,
American Atheists, etc. It keeps their pandering little asses'
feet to the fire regarding the Wall of Separation.
MB> People are free to attack such issues from whichever end they
MB> choose. This particular AHA board member chose to attack the issue
MB> from the BSA end. That was her call.
RM> So, the public body made a mistake in making funds available.
RM> And the BSA made a mistake in accepting them. And the result
RM> may be that a single individual (this AHA board member) winds
RM> up dictating program content to the BSA, against the intent
RM> of its founder, and the wishes of it's members. That might
RM> make sense to you, and stranger things have happened in your
RM> courts , but it seems a little extreme to me.
RM> Especially when there is another party to this deal that
RM> seems equally culpable, and more answerable to the public
RM> (the school districts involved). And especially when there is
RM> another remedy available - stop the funding.
Stopping the funding would require the Congress' respect for the
First Amendment. Fat chance! We use whatever tools are at our
disposal. Oftimes the tools that are used are because of past
bitter experience.
... Creationist: "Why yes. Rome _was_ built in a day."
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 10 Apr 96 07:10:32
EID:656a 208a3940
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7522d66f
REPLY: 1:215/130 00073d25
On (09 Apr 96) Elliott Finesse wrote to Marilyn Burge...
EF> In a message dated 04-06-96 Marilyn Burge wrote to Sue Armstrong:
EF> > I don't think you have to be an economist to see the point he
EF> > was probably trying to make. I don't recall reading the essay,
EF> > but, I can pretty much guess where he was coming from. Look at
EF> > it this way: you own a business. A hundred percent of the
EF> > people are employed. You need a couple of employees. What are
EF> > you going to have to do to get them? Offer somebody more money
EF> > than they are presently making! There can be no other way, as
EF> > there is nobody "in the market" for a job. So you offer them
EF> > more than they are already making, whether they are truly worth
EF> > more or not.
EF> Except the determination of the "worth" of labor is the same, in
EF> practice, as the determination of the worth of goods and services -
EF> supply and
EF> demand. Certainly business has no problem charging whatever the
EF> traffic will bear without regard to inflation or the "true" worth of
EF> their product or service.
EF> You have no choice. Now, explain to me why this
EF> > wouldn't create upward pressure on wages, which would in turn
EF> > create upward pressure on the price of goods. Isn't that the
EF> > definition of "inflation?"
EF> But I doubt he was as concerned about the inflationary pressure of a
EF> rising stock market, for instance. Why would zero unemployment be
EF> considered bad and inflationary and a rising stock market considered
EF> good (and non-inflationary)?
I'm not saying that others factors can't also be inflationary,
I was just pointing out to Sue how a 100 percent employment
rate WOULD be inflationary, and why it also wouldn't necessarily
be a good thing for the country in which it existed.
... HELL (n): Backing up a 600 meg drive with 360K floppies.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ISMS [1]
|Date: 09 Apr 96 22:29:55
EID:32e3 2089b3a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 92025aa1
REPLY: 1:116/19 04099C56
On (06 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> for the day -- one remaining in school, the other spending the day
MB> at Mom and Dad's workplace. She opted to leave both of them in
MB> school that day. But the gross unfairness of that corporate
MB> decision got me to thinking a bit deeper, and I came up with the
MB> above argument.
AS> This is one where I agree with you TOTALLY on; and quite
AS> frankly, it creeps into the religious sphere quite badly, and
AS> it is one of the few things (besides politics and Genesis)
AS> that I have a serious disagreement with my preacher on,
AS> although we're good friends otherwise. There are many
AS> preachers...and mine tends that way...who preach a Gospel of
AS> Dale Carnegie. Who would rather people have good self-esteem
AS> than be saved. They have bought the myth that with a good
AS> self-image you can do anything.
AS> That's not been my experience in life. Oh, those whose
AS> talents excel know it and are confident in it. But I think
AS> many of these sales types are doing a mantra, self-
AS> hypnotizing themselves with their positive self-image stuff.
AS> And once they hit a crisis that got in the way of thier
AS> self-image, their self-image shatters, leaving it worse than
AS> it was before. I think the best way to get a good self-image
AS> is to help others and see their gratitude and their esteem of
AS> you reflected in their eyes. That cannot be taken away.
I see the real problem quite differently. We all are good at
some things, not-so-good at some things, and horrible at what's
left. If we spend a bunch of time consciously telling ourselves
how good we are, we are ignoring the things that we aren't so
good at. Doing that leaves us at a disadvantage when we have to
compete in the marketplace with people who are willing and able
to say "I don't do X very well, so I'd better take some classes
in it."
It also leaves us at a disadvantage when we are approached to
do something, because we are unable to assess whether we can
truly do a good job, because we've programmed ourselves to
believe we can do ANYTHING, overlooking the fact that there
are many things that we are barely adequate at, and actually
a certain set of things that, quite framkly we can't do at
all.
AS> Interestingly for a religious person, this is almost the
AS> exact OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught. "The greatest are those
AS> who serve most".."the first shall be last",,,there are
AS> instructions to sit at the foot of the table, so the master
AS> of the house might ask you to move up, rather than sit at the
AS> place of honor and be embarassed when the master of the house
AS> asks you to move to a lesser place. That the person who says,
AS> "be merciful unto me, a sinner" is greater than the one who
AS> goes, "Thank you, Lord, for not making me as other men." Yet
AS> there are many preachers who write self-help books and make
AS> the circuit, selling a positive self-image as something
AS> commanded by the Bible.
AS> They are reading a different Bible than mine.
No, they are reading different portions of the same bible. In
order for us to love others, we must first learn to love ourselves.
But, having said that, it must be a love based in reality, not one
predicated on the sort of ga-ga crap that we call "puppy love."
Look at the words on the Lord's Prayer. It clearly says "forgive
us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US."
Does that not speak to the need for us to see the value to ourselves
in our ability to forgive others? Why do something that is mainly
a value to oneself, yet is decidedly hard to do for others, if we
are not being commanded to do it so that we may receive god's
love and grace? What difference does it make whether we receive
god's love and grace, if we are unworthy of it anyway.
The verses you cited speak of humility and perhaps even self-
effacement, but they do not speak of a poor opinion of oneself.
AS> And I suspect the secular self-image seminars are riding for
AS> a similar fall. It's masturbatory, feeding on YOUR self
AS> image, YOUR goals. It's me, me, me...it's not as bad as it
AS> was in the eighties, but it is still pretty bad.
AS> Now, too much of anything can be bad. Perhaps women do need a
AS> more positive self-image, and such would keep their mates
AS> from getting away with beating them, as we have heard so much
AS> lately in this echo, on the news, whatever. But I wonder if
AS> the better idea would be to scale down the males' egoes...or
AS> rather, maybe we should be concerned about helping others'
AS> egoes, and be less concerned about our own.
I don't think that the battered wife syndrome is so much a
question of poor self-image as it is a question of women being
programmed differently from men from the time they are born. Women
are reared that it is marriage first, career next (if at all). Men
are reared that it is definitely career first. As a result men are
more at ease with the notion of not being married at all; women
feel like they are somehow a failure or inadequate if they don't
marry.
Given that, they have a strong drive to keep the relationship
together, regardless of how toxic it is, because being alone (and
presumptively unwanted) is an even worse fate. If they dump the
guy, they (and others) will ask why they couldn't keep the guy
happy, and they will be scared stiff they won't find another man
to "fulfill" their destiny.
I'm sure that mindset is less prevalent now than it was in my
generation, but you can bet your bippy it is still there, no
matter how much more subtle.
... Why do Christians worship a god that violated a virgin's civil rights?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Unemployment [1]
|Date: 10 Apr 96 18:15:32
EID:105b 208a91e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 847b3285
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 316a514f
On (08 Apr 96) Sue Armstrong wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SA> A lone voice in the wilderness, Marilyn mournfully howled out
SA> "Unemployment [1]"
SA> I gleaned of it I found exceedingly disgusting. It had
SA> something to do with the "fact" that no economy can stand
SA> having everyone employed, and that inflation would go through
SA> the roof if that happened, but I really couldn't make heads
SA> nor tails of his reasoning.
MB> I don't think you have to be an economist to see the point he
MB> was probably trying to make. I don't recall reading the
MB> essay, but, I can pretty much guess where he was coming from.
MB> Look at it this way: you own a business. A hundred percent of
MB> the people are employed. You need a couple of employees. What
MB> are you going to have to do to get them? Offer somebody more
MB> money than they are presently making! There can be no other
MB> way, as there is nobody "in the market" for a job. So you
MB> offer them more than they are already making, whether they
MB> are truly worth more or not. You have no choice. Now, explain
MB> to me why this wouldn't create upward pressure on wages,
MB> which would in turn create upward pressure on the price of
MB> goods. Isn't that the definition of "inflation?"
SA> Well, the problem there is, there are always people entering
SA> the job market.
Then, you don't have 100 percent employment, by definition.
SA> Also, some might not like the job they're doing at the
SA> moment, and might prefer to switch jobs. (I know a programmer
SA> who's getting so sick of the bullshit where he works that
SA> he's entertained the idea of filling out a McDonald's
SA> application.)
Then, you don't have 100 percent employment. That's why economists
usually regard 2-3 percent unemployment as full employment: it
allows for those who voluntarily quit their jobs because they
don't want to work, are pissed off at their boss, etc.
SA> As for inflation, I see it as rather illusory. Wages go up;
SA> prices go up. Prices go up, wages go up, all hand-in-hand.
SA> Whether you're working in one dollar bills or 1,000 dollar
SA> bills doesn't seem to make much difference. Here, a Coke is
SA> about $1.00. In Greece, it was 100 drachmas.
That basically has nothing to do with whether or not 100 percent
employment is inflationary. THAT is all I was attempting to
explain to you in laymen's terms.
... بتتتت¼ Hey Rocky, watch me pull a tagline outta my hat!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jerry Eakle
|To: All
|Sub: religions
|Date: 10 Apr 96 01:12:24
EID:65d8 208a0980
MSGID: 1:213/742.0 316b6d68
Ok I am here to stir up some holy smoke. I am a reformed atheist. I was
when I was younger a christian until Junior High School or Middle School
depending on where your at. I then became a atheist I have no idea why
other than I believe in Evolution. And still don't believe in immaculate
conception. If you can tell me how a woman can get pregnant from a nonhuman
being a spirit. Or how a spirit can take the dirt from the earth and create
a human being. How come when we are born why don't the men come from the
earth and women come from his rib bone? These may sound stupid but I think
it was stuff like that that caused me to become an atheist. I also am interested
in why God promotes incest. When he made Adam and Eve they had Cain And
Abel Cain went to the land of Nod and got a wife. Who created the people
of Nod? If it was incest why did it not give the names of the people of
Nod in the Genealogy in the Bible?
I am also anti Catholic and Mormon and Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah's
Witnesses. All four of them push religion on you. And the Mormons use the
Book of Mormon besides the Bible and that's considered a cult. I get into
arguments with Catholics because they feel there's is the only religion
there is. I consider myself Christian and am not affiliated to any church
like Methodist, Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran. Christian is my religion.
I am an avid watcher of Trinity Broadcasting Network and they have this
one couple the husband is Jeff Fenholt and he used to be a rock musician
with Black Sabbath and his wife Reeni Fenholt is a reformed Catholic. I
like watching their show. Ok enough for now.
May God Bless You All!!!!!
Praise The Lord!!!!!!
Jesus Is My Savior!!!!
GOD Bless
Jerry Eakle
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Library COM -* Reno, NV USA *- (702) 785-4191 (1:213/742)
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 06 Apr 96 13:21:00
EID:d432 20866aa0
April 8 Monday
WHO HOLDS THE ROPE?
Read: Hebrews 13:1-6
I will never leave you
nor forsake you.
-Hebrews 13:5
Some years ago I read an account that went something like this:
A group of scientists and botanists were exploring remote regions
of the Alps in search of new species of flowers. One day they
noticed through binoculars a flower of such rarity and beauty that
its value to science was incalculable. But it lay deep in a ravine
with cliffs on both sides. To get the flower someone had to be
lowered over the cliff on a rope.
A curious young boy was watching nearby, and the scientists told
him they would pay him well if he would agree to be lowered over the
cliff to retrieve the flower below.
The boy took one long look down the steep, dizzy depths and said,
"I'll be back in a minute." A short time later he returned, followed
by a gray-haired man. Approaching the botanist, the boy said, "I'll
go over that cliff and get that flower for you if this man holds the
rope. He's my dad."
Oh, that God might give us the faith of that boy! Have you
learned to trust the Lord like that, my friend? If anyone else
holds the rope, I dare not go. But since Jesus is holding me
fast, I can never doubt. Are you willing to say, "If my Father
holds the rope, I shall not fear"?
-M.R. De Haan
He holds my hand, this wonderful Savior,
And He is mine;
So why should I fear when I know He's so near,
And I know that His hand holds mine? -Smith
FEAR FADES WHEN WE TRUST OUR FATHER
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
---
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 09 Apr 96 00:26:00
EID:d432 20890340
April 11 Thursday
ABOVE THE CIRCUMSTANCES
Read: Habakkuk 3:17-19
Though the fig tree may not
blossom,...yet I will
rejoice in the Lord.
-Habakkuk 3:17-18
I remember a story about a woman who was very discouraged because
of the many problems in her life. As she was walking down the
street, she met a fellow believer who asked, "How are you doing
today?"
With a sour look and a bitter shrug she replied, "Oh, not too bad
- under the circumstances."
The other person quickly countered, "Well, get above the
circumstances! That's where Jesus is."
The prophet Habakkuk was of the same mind. He refused to let
circumstances dampen his faith or crush his hope. He looked to the
future not with pessimistic fears of what else could go wrong, but
with faith in God no matter what would happen. Even if he lost all
his possessions, Habakkuk proclaimed that he would continue to trust
the Lord to meet his needs (vv.17-19).
Our eyes are to be focused on the Lord, not on our circumstances.
We are to live above the shadows of fear and bask in the sunlight of
faith. Even though we, like Habakkuk, may have a long list of
troubles, faith's answer to disappointment must always be: "Yet I
will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation"
(v.18). That type of attitude will enable us to live above the
circumstances instead of under them.
-Henry G. Bosch
Although my trees are fruitless,
No grapes are on the vine,
Yet Christ is all my fullness,
And all His sweetness mine. -Anon
AS YOU GO ALONG LIFE'S WEARY ROAD,
LET JESUS LIFT YOUR HEAVY LOAD.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
* 1st 2.00 #1855 * God's baud rate is ..
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|From: Mark staal
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:03:49
EID:f018 20886060
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb26b
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Mark Staal <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/26.14 ee8b95a7
JS> On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote to Jim Staal...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Fredric Rice <=-
JS> Let's just get over it once, Fred, admit you are/were wrong and
JS> perhaps Mark can learn from your example. (admitting he was wrong)
MS> ....I thought I did by posting an apology,
JS> I must have missed that, Mark. Just let it ride (as I already
JS> have...even though Fred won't let the you=me thing die, let's just
JS> apologize and try, try, try to let it ride *no apologies to Randy
JS> Bachmann* )
....I don't know....If he can't even comprehend the two of us being
different people, How is he going to be able to understand the apology?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:06:11
EID:f018 208860c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb26c
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Mark Staal <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/26.14 f669aa96
JS> On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote to Jim Staal...
ms> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
ms> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
ms> George and the rice brothers.
MS> ....I thought I did by posting an apology, But, where in the above
MS> statement did I say that they said anything about dads' death? I
MS> merely stated that they were "CRUEL" and I still stick to that
MS> statement...AND until Ferdie can get over his little obsession I'll
MS> retract my apology seeing it was siad under a misunderstanding of
MS> Ferdies' part.
JS> Ahh...no need to bring it up in the first place...just let it die and
JS> maybe he'll come around...
..........Yeah, right.....Just like George is my friend....George is
good......WHEN DONKEYS FLY!!!!!!!!!
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS - Wyoming MI - (616)538-5410 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jim staal lies again
|Date: 08 Apr 96 12:09:06
EID:f018 20886120
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 316bb26d
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Mark Staal <=-
JS> @MSGID: 1:228/26.14 bd872c07
JS> On (04 Apr 96) Mark Staal wrote