God Damned Fundies!
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lawrence McCurry
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 13 Apr 96 09:07:00
EID:be84 208d48e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A667B6
LM> There is only one holy smoke and my brothers and sisters are put into
LM> your jails everyday for smoking it...LET MY PEOPLE GO.... Tell your
LM> local political piggy that you want marijauna legalized Now!
LM> Or shall we rot in jail for growing a gift God gave to us all.
LM> === Lawrence ===
Killer weed, dude.
... I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat salad.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 13 Apr 96 09:01:00
EID:a5a2 208d4820
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A67026
> (Applause).
EF> You are, shall we say, somewhat premature. Sorry Al!
Am I? You were forced to at least equivocate on one. And I think Michael
will have some more for you. BTW, which translation of the Bible are you
consulting?
... Got kleptomania? Take something for it.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: PERSPECTIVES
|Date: 13 Apr 96 09:07:00
EID:e0f2 208d48e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A679EA
AS> Well, that's what a lot of us are wondering, if there isn't a
AS> specific incident that might be more historically valid than others.
MM> Even if an event were located to work from, it still wouldn't not
MM> validate one perspective over another very much... it would just say
MM> that that event was done by someone... they still could be described
in
MM> several ways.
Well, there have been ten thousand people who claim to be abducted by
aliens. But if one brings back a little device that shoots out a death
ray, I MIGHT take him a little more seriously...
AS> A Bi-polar Brahma?
MM> Hey, or just a excelent actor? Even the presentation in the Bible
MM> allows for a rather varied interpretation of the nature of God.
True. I suspect God must vary His message somewhat for the stage the
culture is in, the same way I can order a two-year-old to bed by eight,
but allow a sixteen year old to stay up as late as he wants. (Marilyn
HATES that analogy.)
... Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Rob's various replies
|Date: 13 Apr 96 00:03:00
EID:d7c6 208d0060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A68426
EF> Well I was giving you an opportunity to show us how to go about such
EF> things - as you seem to think we should. Now please do so. BTW was
EF> Suetonius part of your study that convinced you of the reality of
EF> Jesus? He also claims that Augustus rose to heaven.
Certainly. He didn't claim to have seen him do so, however. OTOH,
Seutonius is EXCELLENT evidence, if you read the section in Nero, that
Christians were persecuted by around 60 AD...within the lifetime of those
who could refute their beliefs. That is certainly germane. It is one thing
to claim something happened hundreds of years ago. If I claimed Joan of
Arc flew around the room, all possible witnesses are dead by centuries,
and historical records invariably not what we would wish. But if I claim
John F. Kennedy flew around the room, there are hundreds of people who
could verify that he never claimed and they never witnessed such a thing.
And remember the crucifixion, etc. was a very public affair.
> There is no comparable historical event, period.
EF> Baloney. Any claim of supernatural occurance is comparable in this
EF> context.
Multiply attested witness of a miracle, staunchly supported under pain of
death, torture, imprisonment...?
EF> Well then you must be quite well versed in the counter arguments.
EF> Who's impressed you the most and what were the arguments?
David Hume "On Miracles", Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker" come
to mind...Weinberg's "In Search of a Final Theory"...
> No, I was an atheist at the time.
EF> I find that difficult to believe. Did you consider, objectively, the
Perhaps you are aware that C.S. Lewis progressed from atheist/agnostic to
deist and finally Christian, becoming one of its greatest apologists?
SURPRISED BY JOY recounts that. Actually, a better journal of a highly
intelligent skeptic who became a Christian is G.K. Chesterton's ORTHODOXY.
> EF> You never seriously considered skeptical works that make precisel
> EF> opposite case, but rather stuck to tomes that were Resurrection
> EF> friendly.
>
> Absolutely wrong. I made a deliberate point of examining arguments th
> attacked Christianity. I probably read more against than I did in
> favor.
EF> For instance?
In my case, among the dozen or so books from the library I currently have
includes THE JESUS CONSPIRACY, THE EXECUTION OF JESUS, Crossnan's THE
HISTORICAL JESUS : A life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, among others.
Honorable mention must include FORGERY IN CHRISTIANITY, which Larry Sites
was all the time quoting from.
> That's true, because I never gave myself any deadlines. I set out to
> examine the issue indefinitely and just see what there was in favor a
> against. (I also read apologetics for other belief systems, to see ho
> their cases compared.)
EF> Oh, ok. How did you determine they were incorrect? What evidence, for
EF> instance, did you find that Buddha wasn't born speaking - as claimed?
An understanding of Buddhism, of course.
"Thus miracles are (in late documents, I believe) recorded of the Buddha.
But what could be more absurd than that he whocame to teach us that Nature
is an illusion from which we must escape should occupy himself in
producing effects on the Natural level--that he who comes to wake us from
a nightmare should ADD to the nightmare? The more we respect his teaching
the less we cold accept his miracles." C.S. Lewis, MIRACLES.
I know you addressed the questions above to Michael, but I presumed you
might be interested in my response too. (You notice I left all the HARD
questions for Michael...)
... Confuse People: Quote From The Wrong Message
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Self-portrait: Mark Craig
|Date: 13 Apr 96 01:08:00
EID:f503 208d0900
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A68BBA
DC> The blank stare and the foaming tongue says it all...
Mark Craig's self-portrait?
And notice the lack of genitalia....
... Some people aren't equipped to attend a meeting of the minds.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Zionist-Hate Media
|Date: 13 Apr 96 00:08:00
EID:823a 208d0100
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A6998E
JJ> Quoting MARK CRAIG to ALL on 04-07-96
MC>Do you notice how the Jew media chooses to show the life of Moses,
MC>rather than Jesus, during Easter? They must really hate him --
MC>jn.8:44. And to think how those hypocrites in our churches, have
MC>allied themselves with them.
MC>1st. John says that anyone who does not accept him as Lord is the
MC>Anti- Christ, and not to sit-down with them.
JJ> There *is* no "Jew media," and bigotry like this only
JJ> disgraces the name of Christ.
It disgraces the sheer humanity of us all, also.
... The Bible doesn't need to be rewritten, it needs to be reread.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: [1/2] ALLEGORY
|Date: 13 Apr 96 00:03:00
EID:ba2b 208d0060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A6A424
MB> Al is making a very common mistake by going from the specific to
MB> the general much too quickly. Just because ONE person knows
MB> something, it in no way follows that ALL people know the same
MB> thing. That is true today, and was even truer before the mass
MB> communications systems we now have. And, even those who have heard
MB> a particular factoid are not necessarily going to agree with it,
MB> even if it later turns out to be a given. Ptolemy could have
MB> shouted that factoid from the rooftops, and all most people in
MB> that time and place would have done is think he's a nut.
But the point was, Ptolemy's claims were taken as Gospel for over a
thousand years...a thousand years where people accepted both the smallness
of the universe and the truth of the miracles of the Gospels. Yet suddenly
Spong seems to think we cannot reconcile the two. Why is that? I am just
pointing out that Dante knew the Earth was small, compared to the distance
to the stars, just as we do...yet did not feel it ridiculous that God
could be concerned about Earth.
... I'm not dead, I'm metabolically challenged.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Laura Hodgkins
|Sub: angles
|Date: 13 Apr 96 01:07:00
EID:e176 208d08e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A6B3BA
LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is possible to
LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
Yes, I believe there are angels.
Yes, I believe it is possible.
But no, I think such is very unlikely to be witnessed.
Fair enough?
... I'm sorry...were the voices in my head bothering you?
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:33:36
EID:01ec 208e6420
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3170f0b5
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Christopher!
Saturni dies April 13 1996, Dixit Christopher Baker ad ryan shaw:
CB> silly atheist. god moves in mysterious ways. man cannot judge god or
CB> discern his motives. [snicker]
Sounds like a drunk behind the steering wheel. :-/
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: ryan shaw
|Sub: Downing Doorknockers
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:36:12
EID:2c35 208e6480
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3170f198
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 17099e43
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, ryan!
Dies solis April 14 1996, Dixit ryan shaw ad Kevin D. Mckenzie:
DM>> I was taking a walk down memory lane, reading your list
DM>> of ways to get rid of missionaries (I shall ask to see a
DM>> driver's license and note down the address the next time one knocks
DM>> at _my_ door, a can tell you that right now), and I
DM>> thought of a possible addition:
rs> Damn, I must have missed that. Could you repost that or send it to
me via
rs> email?
I'd like to see it too. Anyways, I plan to ask for a license the next time
I have visitors (usually two) from the Mormon church. Then the license
comes inside (while the visitors stay outside) as I call the police to have
these guys removed.
"Yipeekayay, motherfuckers."
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: LAURA HODGKINS
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: angles
|Date: 13 Apr 96 13:11:36
EID:6422 208d6960
MSGID: 1:322/746 a6306d09
-> LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is
-> possible to LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
->
-> It would depend on which type of mushrooms you are eating.
I'm not eating any mushrooms, I don't even like them. i'm trying to be
serious here.
--- Platinum Xpress/Wildcat! v1.1
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: "New files"
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:20:01
EID:7853 208e5a80
MSGID: 1:109/611.0 31713eae
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31703a1f
PID: BWQBBS 3.11 [Eval]
All and Steve were killing time yakking about "New files":
SQ> 2) The Apocrypha are included, but I couldn't tell you what the names
SQ> of the books are. They are abbreviated as 151 (I couldn't tell you.
SQ> There is a mention of David and Goliath), 1ma, 2ma, 3ez, 4ez, bar, ju,
SQ> lao, pm, sir, tob, and wis. I can guess at a few of these, but if
SQ> someone can help me out, we'll be halfway there.
Sure thing. The Deuterocanonicals are:
Baruch (bar)
Bel and the Dragon
1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Esther (Greek)
Judith (ju)
Letter of Jeremiah
1 Maccabees (1ma)
2 Maccabees (2ma)
The Prayer of Manasseh (pm)
Sirach (sir)
Song of the Three Young Men
Susanna
Tobit (tob)
Wisdom of Solomon (wis)
I'm assuming that 3ez and 4ez are 1 & 2 Esdras, but I'm not sure what lao
would be (letter of...? o doesn't match up with Jeremiah) If it's an
exhortation against idolatry explaining that that is the reason why the
people are being taken into captivity in Babylon, that's what it is.
The remaining three are expansions of the Book of Daniel that appear in
the
Greek version of that book.
The Song of the Three Young Men is a praise song attributed to the 3 men
who
were thrown into the furnace by Nebuchadnezzar and survived unharmed.
Bel and the Dragon includes two heroic stories about him -- his cleverness
at
defeating the priests of Bel, and his killing of a dragon.
Susanna tells about a woman accused of adultery (her accusers are two judges
who are angry because they wanted her, and she'd said no). She is condemned
to death, but is saved when Daniel questions the judges and catches them
in
a lie.
--
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Nobody roots for Goliath.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Stan Phillips
|Sub: Bullshit Science and Faith
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:29:37
EID:0315 208d93a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce94
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0003c6a6
Stan Phillips said "Bullshit Science and Fait" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> JG> about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr. Thomas G.
Barnes,
DM> JG> Professor Emeritus of Physics at the University of Texas. ...
DM>..... Pustule, that among scientists and on this echo
DM> generally, the coveted Institute of Creation Research
DM> imprimatur is regarded as a solid gold guarantee of pure
DM> bullshit.
SP> Hi there, I was not aware that the University of Texas was the same
SP> place as the "Institute of Creation Research".
Only a rank newbie or the tragically comprehension-impaired
would come to such a conclusion. This Barnes blivet once _taught_ at
the University of Texas, and he has since published the book in
question through the Institute of Creation Research (probably the
only publisher even remotely interested). In another post to this
pustule, I quoted the publication information from "Books in Print"
on this opus, which is, as it happens, an "ICR monograph". Is there
something mystical about these two separate events in the life of
one professor that causes them to so mingle in your fetid
imagination?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:00:57
EID:d049 208d9000
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce95
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 653ed514
J.J. Hitt said "Johnson Smith Catalogue" to Don Martin, adding:
JH>> [Lunch for the first is still on.]
DM> Terrific! Have you any peculiar eating habits?
JH> Not really. I'm partial to chinese buffets, but I get plenty of
JH> that down here. I'm going to make it a point to visit one of the
JH> Maria's while I'm up there to get a real goddam sub. (As for
JH> the limpdick Southern excuse for a sub called a Poor Boy, the
JH> less said the better.)
You are not a vegan then, nor do you subsist entirely on yak
butter--great. We are about three blocks from Little Italy; the
Charthouse is across the street; there is Chinese on Lombard a block
away and there is always Phillip's for pretty good (if overpriced)
seafood with a great view of the harbor.
JH> I'm open to anything but would prefer something "local" (even
JH> Polock Johnny's is prefectly OK with me).
Never been there--I just WORK in Baltimore, I don't gourmandize
there as much as I ought.
JH> By the way... My hard disk has swallowed up your phone number.
JH> I'm not convinced that I've lost it... I just cant find it.
I got no hard breather calls the last time I posted it, so what
the hell . . . . 410/962-1800 x 242.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000 1041 1082 1137 1180
SEEN-BY: 261/1181 1350 2000 2600 3015 3050 3060 3090 3900 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:10:22
EID:d049 208d9140
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce96
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 653f054b
J.J. Hitt said "Johnson Smith Catalogue" to Don Martin, adding:
JH> By the way... My hard disk has swallowed up your phone
JH> number. I'm not convinced that I've lost it... I just cant
JH> find it.
JH> If you're reluctant to post it in the echo (can't imagine why), you
JH> can leave a message for me at the motel at 850-7600.
Staying at BWI, are you? Renting a car or taking the MARC train
(I ride it daily, but on a different line). You wanna have some good
Chinese, our local place in Laurel is one of the best I have hit.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: A Season for Rape
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:34:34
EID:725c 208d9440
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce97
REPLY: 1:246/15 31686461
Steve Wallis said "fof update, staal" to Dan Ceppa, adding:
DC> EF> We want your justification for god ordering the slaughter of
DC> innocent
DC> EF> children and women captives. You keep ducking this point. I
DC> don't
DC>
DC> SW> I wrote what I wrote. Its already Justified.
DC>
DC> IOW, it's ok because your murdering god says its ok.
DC>
DC> You'd do better at the Mass Murderers Echo down the hall,
DC> next to the Bunnies and light crowd.
SW> It was a time of war Dan. Things happen. During dessert storm, the
SW> media tried to revile Norman Swarzkoff becuase of the way some
SW> soldiers killed iraqi troops(they ran over there foxholes in M1
SW> tanks)-his response was "THere's No one nice way to kill someone" What
SW> can you do in a time of war?
They were TROOPS, numbnuts, not little girls passed around for
the fucking. Soldiers get killed--it is part of their job
description--and the General is correct: the process of the killing
is quite often messy and unnice to a great degree. I do not notice
Schwartzkopf being quoted as saying "There is no nice way to rape a
13-year-old virgin," because he, unlike your godlet, does not let
his men do such stuff.
SW> There's a time for every season under heaven Dan.
Apparently in your cosmology there is, therefore, a season for
raping little kids.
And there is likewise a season for telling you to shove the
whole sick mess up your tattered arse. That season is now (and
likely to last some time). Shove it, Cretin.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 13 Apr 96 15:37:02
EID:10c1 208d7ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 317114da
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "AL SCHROEDER"
AS> green, although Myxzptlk is still around and created one piece of red
DC> Any reference as to how they came up with that name?
I bet they took a bunch of Scrabble pieces and put 'em into a hat,
and simply drew at random, writing down each letter as it came out.
"Ok, we'll stop at 7 letters, and whatever those letters are, that's
the name!"
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... Keep Scotland clean! Drop your litter in England!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 13 Apr 96 15:54:03
EID:d41d 208d7ec0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 317114db
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "MY BOOK"
AS> I beg your indulgence for rereading this, but I have a point to
It took me a second reading in another packet to spot the part where
George claims to have destroyed the book. Before, I was annoyed.
Now I'm pissed.
AS> echo, Styx. George's blatant dishonesty has put all of Holy Smoke in
AS> danger, because Styx surely will not run it if he is held liable for
AS> George's craziness. George, in his pettyness, has put all of Holy
AS> Smoke in danger. I think George should be banned from the echo for
AS> this; I do not say this lightly. If Styx does not want to do
He has .. now I'll just have to rip him up in netmail. I wasn't
going to do it; I was going to simply keep out of it, even though it
affects me (however slightly) as well. Now, no way. He's going to
get a serious chunk of my mind; I just have to remember what his
fucking netmail address was. Hell, if I had a car, I'd spend a day
and go do it in person.
AS> this...and I very sincerely hope the legal opinion is wrong and Styx
AS> cannot be held responsible...than I urge a boycott on George. That
AS> we not respond to him in any way shape or form. I have told George
AS> what I think of him, and intend it to be my LAST post to him. I am
AS> not twitting him. I will read every thing he will doubtless call me.
AS> But he will receive no further response. If everyone wants to do the
AS> same, I suggest that George will eventually get bored and leave.
AS> I want to extend every sympathy to John. I hope he CAN sue George,
AS> and George alone. I hope he can take him to the cleaners. Any support
AS> he needs that I can give, he has. Since they live in the same town,
I
AS> understand, if I were George I would be looking over my shoulder
AS> right now, looking to see if John was coming to settle this in an
AS> EXTRA-legal way. And I could not blame him for that, either.
AS> I lost many of my books recently, and I feel for John's loss. And
AS> I think George should be...at the very least...persona non grata
AS> around here.
Shit, I wish I could sue him, too; I had an interest of sorts in
borrowing John's book (and was especially interested in his notes.)
If John DOES decide to sue, however, I'm more than willing to
testify if needs be.
As for the extra-legal stuff, John was planning to come up this way
this year. Where George lives isn't all that far out of the way, on
the way to Windsor from Missouri. I think George-0 forgot that.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... "Oh, very clever Worf. Eat any good books lately?" -- Q
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Question
|Date: 13 Apr 96 15:12:01
EID:aa0d 208d7980
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 317114d9
A lone voice in the wilderness, Mark mournfully howled out "Question"
MC> Recently a pyramid was built in Memphis. It is similar to the
MC> pyramid on the dollar-bill, except in place of the eye, the top is
MC> blue. I understand that there is occult symbolism there. Would anyone
MC> like to elaborate?
Sure. It means that Walter "Korntron" Bartoo has escaped from the
funny farm again.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Science
|Date: 13 Apr 96 10:25:00
EID:3ca5 208d5320
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 317114d8
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "Science"
JH> THESE ARE ACTUAL EXCERPTS FROM
JH> STUDENT SCIENCE EXAM PAPERS (so goes the claim...):
I wouldn't be surprised.
JH> Three kinds of blood vessels are arteries, vanes and caterpillers.
Ewww. I don't want "vanes" or caterpillars running around inside ..
JH> The dodo is a bird that is almost decent by now.
Someone put clothes on the bones?
JH> To remove air from a flask, fill it with water, tip the water
JH> out, and put the cork in quick before the air can get back in.
Next this kid will be measuring the speed of dark.
JH> The process of turning steam back into water again is called
JH> conversation.
Are these elementary school students?
JH> A magnet is something you find crawling all over a dead cat.
Hmmm.
JH> The Earth makes one resolution every 24 hours.
I thought that was just on New Year's.
JH> The cuckoo bird does not lay his own eggs.
Well, that's almost close. His wife does it for him. ;)
JH> To prevent conception when having intercourse, the male wears a
JH> condominium.
Sounds heavy.
JH> To collect fumes of sulfur, hold a deacon over a flame in a test
JH> tube.
Protestant or Catholic?
JH> Parallel lines never meet, unless you bend one or both of them.
DOH! Gee, why didn't Euclid think of that? :P
JH> Algebraical symbols are used when you do not know what you are
JH> talking about.
So I've always suspected ..
JH> Geometry teaches us to bisex angles.
Woo woo!
JH> A circle is a line which meets its other end without ending.
So is a square, by that definition ..
JH> The pistol of a flower is its only protection against insects.
"I'm sick of you bees coming around all the time!" Ah, gun
culture.
JH> The moon is a planet just like the Earth, only it is even deader.
Someone sounds bored ..
JH> Artificial insemination is when the farmer does it to the cow
JH> instead of the bull.
I was drinking iced tea when I read this, and nearly blew it all
over my newly-repaired keyboard.
JH> An example of animal breeding is the farmer who mated a
JH> bull that gave a great deal of milk with a bull with good meat.
Good trick.
JH> We believe that the reptiles came from the amphibians by
JH> spontaneous generation and study of rocks.
Sigh. A creationist in the making.
JH> English sparrows and starlings eat the farmers grain and soil his
JH> corpse.
I suppose if the farmer dies in his fields ..
JH> By self-pollination, the farmer may get a flock of long-haired
JH> sheep.
"Go fuck yerself, mate! No, on second thought, we don't need more
New Zealanders".
JH> Dew is formed on leaves when the sun shines down on them and
JH> makes them perspire.
Uh-huh.
JH> A super-saturated solution is one that holds more than it can hold.
I take it logic isn't a required course?
JH> A triangle which has an angle of 135 degrees is called an obscene
JH> triangle.
Interesting terminology throughout this selection, isn't there?
JH> Blood flows down one leg and up the other.
JH> A person should take a bath once in the summer, and not quite
JH> so often in the winter.
Lemme guess - this student lives in the Ozarks?
JH> The hookworm larvae enters the human body through the soul.
More of that tell-tale terminology.
JH> When you haven't got enough iodine in your blood you get a glacier.
This is completely mystifying. Glacier - goitre?
JH> It is a well-known fact that a deceased body harms the mind.
{stunned look}
JH> Humans are more intelligent than beasts because the human branes
JH> have more convulsions.
I can almost buy that convulsions bit.
JH> For fainting: rub the person's chest, or if a lady, rub
JH> her arm above the hand instead.
First aid as learned through 1940s movies.
JH> For fractures: to see if the limb is broken, wiggle it
JH> gently back and forth.
! If I ever get injured, I hope this kid isn't around.
JH> To remove dust from the eye, pull the eye down over the nose.
Ewwww.
JH> When you smell an odorless gas, it is probably carbon monoxide.
More of that lack of logic (or reading comprehension).
This sort of reminds me of tests I had to mark as an instructor at a
summer cadet camp. The last question, worth 7 marks (the most of
any of 'em), was "Describe and draw a diagram of how one can find
due north at night." The correct answer would have been a drawing of
how the Big Dipper directs one to the North Star. Even though the
kids had already learned this at their home corps, had been taught
this, and even had it demonstrated to them at night, only ONE of the
tests had it right. The most interesting drawing was that of a
person standing on the North Pole (there was a drawing of the entire
Earth) with the North Star above him. I and several other NCOs and
a couple of officers were sitting at a picnic table marking these,
and we were passing the tests around laughing our assses off. Any
dumb drawing that made us laugh got 1 point. Gads,
that was pathetic. It's a good thing we weren't in the Southern
Hemisphere; finding due south using the Southern Cross is slightly
(very slightly) more complicated, and none of them likely would have
gotten it right. It's also a good thing they weren't on the Outward
Bound course, in which they would have actually had to use their
fieldcraft when they were left out in the woods on their own for one
week.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... What's all this I hear about robbery with violins?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE END?
|Date: 13 Apr 96 17:00:00
EID:466c 208d8800
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Selena Kerr <=-
DC> Not in the least. Do you like a crispy, high fiber crust?
No, no, Dan. In her case it's FLAKY crust. Definitely flaky.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/19 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 13 Apr 96 17:22:00
EID:f372 208d8ac0
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Dan Ceppa <=-
JB> Oh, and you don't like my language. Fine...fuck off, dipshit.
DC> Perhaps you should bake him a chocolate cake and make up with
DC> the nice guy, Judith.
SA> I'll throw in a "cigarette" for the make-up pool.
Damn! Never got the original of this one or I'd have told Dan that
Ex-lax doesn't bake well into cakes. It goes better in pies...or puddings.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/19 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Angel Fundy
|Date: 11 Apr 96 23:33:00
EID:fcb8 208bbc20
MSGID: 1:3819/163 317087CB
EF>>No I know the truth, I just can not adequately explain it to you.
EF>But in a message to Karen Davis you say:
EF>> Well no that is a intersting question. The Bible says that he was and
EF>> always has been. Well who knows, I guess I will have to ask him when
I
EF>> see him.
EF>First you say you know the truth and then you admit you don't.
No I said that I know the truth, not all of the ansers.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Ex #7: Two-legged cats are slower than three-legged cats.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3819/163 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 14 Apr 96 16:24:17
EID:87fe 208e8300
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 17166a35
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from --Todd Lappin--> (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 14 '96, 02:05
.5]) by hardly.hotwired.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA02179; Sat, 13
Apr 1996 22:59:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [204.62.133.231] (SHLAN2.wired.com [204.62.133.232]) by wired.com
(8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA11218; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: telstar@wired.com
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin-->)
Subject: LAWSUIT: ACLU Trial Update 4/12/96
Sender: owner-cda-bulletin-list@hotwired.com
Reports are starting to stream in from last Friday's CDA hearing in
Philadelphia, and based on preliminary indications, things are looking
good.
Under cross-examination, the two government witnesses who testified on
Friday were forced to admit to shortcomings in their arguments that the
Communications Decency Act is the least restrictive means for protecting
minors from inappropriate online material.
Moreover, it seems that at least one of the three judges hearing the case,
Judge Stewart Dalzell, is sympathetic to our cause.
All this is very encouraging. But as they say, "It ain't over 'til it's
over."
The following ACLU Trial Update provides more detail. Read on, and as always...
Work the network!
--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
======================================================
ACLU v. RENO: TRIAL UPDATE
* 1st Government Witness Acknowledges Difficulty in Finding Sexually
Explicit Material Online
* 2nd Government Witness Returns Monday to Conclude Testimony
* Plaintiffs have option to rebut government case Monday
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friday, April 12, 1996
PHILADELPHIA -- Testifying for the government today, Special Agent Howard
A.
Schmidt acknowledged, in answer to skeptical questioning by a three-judge
panel, that it is "highly unlikely" for anyone to come across sexually
explicit sites on the Internet by accident.
As the first witness for the government, Agent Schmidt began the morning
with
a live Internet tour and demonstration of a search for so-called indecency.
The demonstration stopped short of actually displaying any of the images,
but traced for the court the route by which Schmidt arrived at various web
sites.
Schmidt acknowledged -- under cross-examination -- that majority of the
sites
he found would have been off limits had he been running a software program
such as SurfWatch, that blocks access to Internet sites considered
inappropriate for children.
Marjorie Heins, who conducted cross-examination for the ACLU, noted that
Agent Schmidt's expertise -- and the government's case -- lies in focusing
on
a very narrow category of sexual material, much of which is already covered
by existing obscenity law.
"In today's testimony, the government attempted to divert the court's
attention from the serious concerns of our plaintiffs by focusing on material
that is highly inflammatory and largely irrelevant to this case," Heins
said.
The consolidated cases of ACLU v. Reno and ALA v. DOJ challenge provisions
of
the Communications Decency Act that criminalize making available to minors
"indecent" or "patently offensive" speech.
Under questioning by the judges, Agent Schmidt was asked how he would enforce
the censorship law when confronted with a safe-sex information web-site
that
displayed an image illustrating how to put a condom on an erect penis.
Agent Schmidt said that since the context was "educational, not purely for
pleasure purposes," he would not censor the site but advise the publishers
to
post warnings.
His answer was different when asked how he would rate an online copy of
the
controversial Vanity Fair magazine cover featuring the actress Demi Moore,
nearly naked and eight months pregnant.
In that case, Schmidt said, the Communications Decency Act would apply
because the image was "for fun." He also said, in answer to a query from
Judge Stuart Dalzell, that the community standard as to the offensive of
the
image might be different for Minnesota than it would for New York.
"It is ironic that, according to the government, an explicit online image
of
an erect penis in an educational context would be acceptable, whereas Vanity
Fair, a constitutionally protected publication containing a much less
explicit image, would be censored," Heins said.
Following Agent Schmidt's testimony, the final plaintiff witness, Dr. Albert
Vezza, told the judges about PICS (Platform for Internet Content Selection),
a new rating system designed to allow parents to control children's access
to
the Internet without censorship.
Dr. Vezza is associate director of the MIT Laboratory for Computer Sciences
and has chief responsibility for the PICS project. He was unable to testify
earlier in the case due to scheduling conflicts.
Dr. Vezza said he expected that wide industry acceptance of the PICS standard
would enable any number of "third-party" organizations such as the PTA,
the
Christian Coalition or the Boy Scouts of America to rate content for Internet
users.
The second and final government witness, Dr. Dan Olsen, a professor of
computer science at Brigham Young University, took the stand in the
mid-afternoon.
Dr. Olsen acknowledged that the PICS standard would allow parents to control
their children's Internet viewing according to their own values or via a
rating system devised by a trusted organization.
He also acknowledged that a system he had conceived in which Internet sites
must be labelled by the content originator, would not allow for such an
independent rating scheme.
While plaintiff lawyers completed cross-examination of Dr. Olsen today,
he
will return on Monday for redirect by government lawyers and to answer any
questions the judges may have.
It is now anticipated that Monday, April 15, will be the last day of trial
in
ACLU v Reno. Plaintiff lawyers will have the opportunity on Monday (instead
of April 26) to call witnesses to rebut the governments's testimony.
However, the ACLU and ALA coalitions did not indicate which witnesses, if
any they would call.
Because the April 26 rebuttal day is no longer necessary, the next date
in
court is set for June 3, when the three-judge panel will hear oral arguments
from both plaintiffs and defendants.
The judges are expected to issue a ruling some time in the weeks following.
Under expedited provisions, any appeal on rulings regarding the new
censorship law will be made directly to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Lawyers for the ACLU appearing before the judges are Christopher Hansen,
Marjorie Heins, Ann Beeson, and Stefan Presser, legal director of the ACLU
of
Pennsylvania.
###
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
This transmission was brought to you by....
THE CDA INFORMATION NETWORK
The CDA Information Network is a moderated distribution list providing
up-to-the-minute bulletins and background on efforts to overturn the
Communications Decency Act. To subscribe, send email to
with "subscribe cda-bulletin" in the message body.
WARNING: This is not a test WARNING: This is not a drill
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 14 Apr 96 16:33:47
EID:87fe 208e8420
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 17166a57
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from --Todd Lappin--> (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 14 '96, 02:09
.5]) by hardly.hotwired.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA02189; Sat, 13
Apr 1996 23:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin-->)
Here's yet another report on last Friday's CDA hearing in Philadelphia...
this time from the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition.
As this posting explains:
"Based on Friday's testimony, the basis of the government's defense appears
to be that sexually explicit material is easily available to minors on the
Internet, and that the CDA, combined with a system for labeling sexually
explicit material, is necessary to prevent minors from accessing sexually
explicit material online."
Hearings resume on Monday, April 15, and of course, I'll send out trial
updates as soon as I receive them.
In the meantime, it's still possible to become a co-plaintiff in the case
by joining the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition via the World Wide
Web. It's free, it's easy, and it gives you a chance to take part in this
historic legal action to defend free speech in cyberspace.
To register, point your browser to:
http://www.cdt.org/ciec
--or--
http://www.hotwired.com/special/lawsuit
Work the network!
--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
===========================================
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition Trial Update No. 9
Pre-Trial Update - April 13, 1996 5:30 pm ET
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/
ciec-info@cdt.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CIEC UPDATES intended for members of the Citizens Internet
Empowerment Coalition. CIEC Updates are written and edited by the
Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org). This
document may be reposted as long as it remains in total.
------------------------------------------------------------------
** 40,000 Netizens Vs. U.S. Department of Justice. **
* The Fight To Save Free Speech Online *
Contents:
o Government Argues CDA is Necessary and Not Overly Restrictive
* Government Witness Proposes Content Labeling Standard
* SurfWatch Blocks Government Expert
o How To Unsubscribe from this list
o More Information on CIEC and the Center for Democracy and Technology
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote of the Day: "Come on line with us, and your kids won't see
what is in [DOJ lead attorney] Mr. Coppalino's book"
of sexually explicit images found online.
-- Judge Stewart Dalzell, suggesting how service providers might market
PICS compatible Internet services
(1) GOVERNMENT ARGUES CDA IS NECESSARY AND NOT OVERLY RESTRICTIVE
The second phase of the legal challenge to the Communications Decency Act
began on Friday as the Department of Justice presented its defense of the
new law before the three judge panel in Philadelphia. Although basic
outline of the government's defense has been known for some time, Friday
marked the first time that the Government has presented witnesses in
defense of the CDA.
Based on Friday's testimony, the basis of the government's defense appears
to be that sexually explicit material is easily available to minors on the
Internet, and that the CDA, combined with a system for labeling sexually
explicit material, is necessary to prevent minors from accessing sexually
explicit material online.
Three witnesses testified at the Friday hearing:
* Howard Schmidt, Special Agent, Director of the Air Force Office of
Special Investigations, Computer Crime Investigations, and
* Dan Olsen, Chair of the Brigham Young University Computer Science
Department
* Albert Vezza, of MIT and the World Wide Web Consortium. (Vezza was
called by the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition).
DOJ EXPERT CLAIMS THAT SPEAKER-BASED LABELING IS AN EFFECTIVE SOLUTION
The government also called Dan Olsen, form Brigham Young University, who
testified that a content labeling system he has developed can effectively
prevent minors from accessing sexually explicit material online. Olsen
proposed that content providers who offer sexually explicit material should
include a "-L18" (for under 18) tag on their sites, and that World Wide
Web
browsers should be programmed to recognize this tag and prevent minors from
accessing tagged sites.
Despite Olsen's academic affiliation and research credentials, his standing
as an expert on Internet standards setting is questionable at best. Olsen
does not sit on the Internet Engineering Task Force or any other body
charged with developing protocols for the Internet, nor does he have any
other direct experience with the Internet standards process. This fact
was
challenged by CIEC attorney's, who initially objected to Olsen's testimony.
The court overruled the objection, stating that they would hear Olsen's
testimony "for what it's worth".
Olsen, who admitted he came up with the idea for a -L18 tag only since the
government asked him to testify in this case, suggested that the burden
of
preventing minors from accessing objectionable material online should fall
primarily on content providers, rather than the recipients of the material.
During cross examination by CIEC attorney Bruce Ennis and ACLU attorney
Chris Hansen, Olsen admitted that his proposal contains several critical
shortcomings. Among these:
* The standard for what material should receive a -L18 tag is difficult
to determine.
* Relying on speakers to label their material requires that listeners
trust the judgment of the speaker, and limits the ability of listeners
to make decisions based on their own personal or family values.
* The -L18 proposal contains no flexibility - it is either on or off.
* It is basically impossible for a content provider to determine who is
an adult and to ensure that only adults have access to adult-oriented
materials.
Ennis argued that, as a result, the only effective method to prevent minors
from accessing inappropriate material online is to rely on end users and
parents to control what material comes into their homes using parental
control technologies such as SurfWatch, CyberPatrol, AOL's Parental Control
features, PICS, etc.
Interestingly, although Olsen's proposal is conceptually similar to
KidCode, a content labeling standards proposed by Nathaniel Borenstein last
summer. Olsen stated he didn't know what KidCode was nor had he ever heard
of it.
Finally, Olsen testified that, because the government was involved in the
initial development of the Internet, he believes that the government has
a
role in determining appropriate technical standards for content labeling.
This testimony was particularly striking because it in many ways represents
the worst nightmare of CDA opponents -- that the law will permit Government
will dictate technical protocols and standards for content on the Internet.
Although this remains a significant concern, CIEC and ACLU attorneys
effectively demonstrated that Olsen's proposed solution is poorly conceived
and impractical.
SURFWATCH FOILS GOVERNMENT EXPERT
Howard Schmidt conducted a live demonstration of the Internet, taking the
court on a tour of world wide web sites devoted to legal issues, a site
promoting the City of Philadelphia, and several search engines. He then
showed the court several usenet newsgroups and decoded pictures of ducks
from the alt.binaries.pictures.animals newsgroup. Schmidt then showed the
court sites containing sexually explicit images, although no he did not
actually display any sexually explicit materials.
Schmidt's demonstration was intended to show how easily a child can access
sexually explicit materials online. Throughout the course of the court
proceedings, the government has sought to show that minors can
inadvertently stumble upon "indecent" or "patently offensive" material in
the normal course of using the Internet, particularly through search
engines, and that parental control software such as SurfWatch and
Cyberpatrol are not effective at preventing minors from accessing such
material.
While Schmidt claimed that minors can "inadvertently" stumble upon sexually
explicit material on the Internet, the Judges appeared unconvinced and
asked several pointed questions. Judge Sloviter repeatedly asked "Can one
inadvertently come across this material?".
Schmidt's claim that minors can inadvertently access sexually explicit
material on the Internet highlights a critical issue in this case. If the
government can demonstrate that minors can easily and inadvertently receive
indecent or patently offensive material on the Internet, the gvt. can argue
that the Internet is a "pervasive medium" similar to television and radio,
and that broad content regulations like the CDA are the only way to protect
minors.
In his testimony, Schmidt cited examples of sexually explicit web sites
which were not blocked by SurfWatch. Schmidt testified that he had found
these sites by searching for terms such as "sex" and "xxx" on popular
Internet search engines. During cross examination by CIEC attorney Ann
Kappler however, Schmidt revealed that he had run his initial searches
WITHOUT SurfWatch running. Kappler noted that SurfWatch prevents searches
for terms like "sex" or "xxx", and that had Schmidt been running the
program when he conducted his initial search, he would have been unable
to
access any of the sites he claimed SurfWatch didn't block.
In response to relentless questioning by Kappler, Schmidt reluctantly
admitted that "SurfWatch would not have allowed the [initial] search".
PICS - AN EXAMPLE OF A LESS-RESTRICTIVE ALTERNATIVE TO THE CDA
In addition to the two government witnesses, the CIEC called Albert Vezza
of MIT and the World Wide Web Consortium to explain the Platform For
Internet Content Selection (PICS) to the court.
PICS is a set of protocols which will permit voluntary multiple,
independent third party rating systems to operate on the Internet and
commercial online services, as well as permit content providers to rate
their own material. The PICS standards are being developed at MIT through
the World Wide Web Consortium with the support of most of the online
industry, including America Online, Prodigy, Netscape, Microsoft, Apple,
and others.
Vezza explained to the court that PICS, unlike Dan Olsen's "-L18" tag, will
allow for tremendous flexibility in rating content, and that many ratings
systems are possible. And, because PICS would be controlled at the user
level, parents and other users would have tremendous control over what
material they access.
Vezza also testified that PICS is far less restrictive and far more
effective at preventing children from accessing inappropriate material than
the Communications Decency Act. Vezza testified that because a substantial
amount of sexually explicit material is available on sites outside the
United states, and because PICS allows parents to utilize trusted
third-party rating systems, it is inherently more powerful and flexible
than the broad restrictions imposed by the CDA.
Vezza also pointed out that the PICS standards will allow parents to block
access to all unrated sites if they choose. As a result, Vezza said,
"children could be protected without mandating any one rating system, from
foreign sites, and from sites with indecent or patently offensive material
that has not been rated".
The Judges appeared extremely interested in Vezza's testimony, and asked
numerous questions. Judge Stewart Dalzell, who has taken a keen interest
in
the case, stated for the second time since the trial began that the world
wide web has developed almost entirely because the government has stayed
out of the way. At one point, Dalzell stated "There must be powerful
market forces driving this process". Dalzell then stated rhetorically that
he could imagine a marketing advantage for implementing PICS standards and
that providers would sell their services by saying, "come on line with us
and your kids won't see what is in Mr. Coppalino's book", referring to the
book of evidence containing sexually explicit images found online.
TESTIMONY TO RESUME MONDAY APRIL 15
Testimony will resume on Monday April 15 with Government witness Dan Olsen.
The trial is proceeding more quickly than initially expected, and it is
possible that all testimony from both sides will be concluded on Monday.
It is possible that the hearing originally scheduled for April 26 will be
canceled, and that the closing arguments, scheduled for June 6, will be
moved to up to mid-May. CDT will post an update as more information
becomes available.
FOR MORE INFORMATION
More information on the case, including the text of the complaint,
supporting documents, transcripts from the first three days of testimony,
and back issues of CIEC Trial Bulletins can be found on the Citizens
Internet Empowerment Coalition Web Site:
http://www.cdt.org/ciec
###
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
This transmission was brought to you by....
THE CDA INFORMATION NETWORK
The CDA Information Network is a moderated distribution list providing
up-to-the-minute bulletins and background on efforts to overturn the
Communications Decency Act. To subscribe, send email to
with "subscribe cda-bulletin" in the message body.
WARNING: This is not a test WARNING: This is not a drill
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
___
Received: from [204.62.133.231] (SHLAN2.wired.com [204.62.133.232]) by wired.com
(8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA11545; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:02:42 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: telstar@wired.com
Subject: LAWSUIT: CIEC Trial Update 4/12/96
Sender: owner-cda-bulletin-list@hotwired.com
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Wally Jabbusch
|To: Ric Carter
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:58:24
EID:9484 208e5f40
PID: BWMAX2 3.19 Beta [Eval]
MSGID: 1:153/8009.0 317183ef
RC> Beyond that: if the xian contention that aborted fetuses [feti?] go
to
RC> heaven is correct, in fact if all those who die in infancy are heaven
RC> bound, then we have to take into account that until recently, the vast
RC> majority of humans died in infancy. Even now, it's estimated by the
RC> WHO that over half of all pregnancies worldwide result in premature
RC> births, spontaneous abortions, miscarriages, etc. Thus heaven will
be
RC> populated primarily with souls that NEVER had any experiences "in the
RC> world", never had any real social contact; in fact, never acquired
RC> language skills. Thus, besides the "saved" murderers & torturers &
RC> rapists & republicans & talkshow hosts, heaven will be filled with
RC> silent zygotes, feti, babes.
RC> So imagine the usual encounter: yer strolling thru the cloudy streets,
RC> checkin' out the angels' tits & listening to that heavenly-choir
RC> Muzak, when ya run into somebody, anybody, another immortal.
RC> "Hi there, pilgrim", ya exclaim, "How's things!?"
RC> (silence)
RC> "Err, what's yer name?? How'd ya get here?", ya ask.
RC> (silence)
RC> "O, ya must be one a'them preemies, huh? Well, I gotta go see a guy
RC> about a, umm, a dog, that's it, I gotta see a guy about a dog. You
RC> take it easy now, OK? See ya, sport!", you say, taking your exit.
RC> This is how most heavenly conservations would go. Boring place, eh?
Well that, and please don't forget this..there will be a lot of spying going
on to rid heaven from all the unjust types. What unjust types you mat ask?
From my exerience I've found that when a person finds "THE LORD" in their
own
mind they are the epitomy of a good christian. Now that they have delt with
that they can now go out and find all others who may stray in one way or
another.
So to keep heaven pure they must do the work that they started down here,
judge others
using their own morality as a yardstick.
Normally I don't care what people belive, but this "MORAL MAJORATY" get
to me
real fast. They smile with one face and judge you with the other and then
try to ban you to their version of hell. All the while having a shit eating
grin on their faces
as they are above everyone else.
When that happens I'll go after their beliefs.Why? To prove to them that
that is all
it really is a belief,and opinion based in faith. I could belive in a head
of
lettuce and still be on the same level as them. Ok not a head of lettuce
but you get
the point. I once misspelled a word in here and was brought up sort for
it.
Have a good one
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: 3rd Planet Communications. [604] 521-4096 (1:153/8009)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Renee Deyoe
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 14 Apr 96 13:27:49
EID:e3cc 208e6b60
MSGID: 1:352/266 31717CC5
RD> ajerk..you think...I thought this was a religious debate echo, not a
RD> Flameecho..am I wrong? Please correct me if I am.
Actually, its both. It depends on which persons you choose to engage in
discussion. If you indulge those who want to flame, you will get flamed.
If however, you can ignore the sensless banter, there are those worth a
good discussion. I felt the sort of overpowering confusion when I first
logged into this area... but later found that swimming with sharks was good
mental exercise for the real world where such flaming can be a common occurance.
Toughens the skin a bit.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Ralph Jansen
|To: Malady Keane
|Sub: Omni-impotence
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:40:16
EID:b764 208d9500
MSGID: 1:398/1.0 316ff510
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 316d95a0
MK> omnipotence and what not. I do not believe that
MK> God is Omni ANYTHING. God supposedly created
MK> everything, but if he is truly omniscient he would
MK> have known from the very beginning what his
MK> creation would consist of down to the last quark
MK> even before he created it, he would have known the
MK> thoughts and actions of every human being, animal,
MK> micro-organism, and atom from that creative
MK> instant. This basically means that no human being
MK> has any free will at all, you see, because if God
MK> possessed this knowledge before creation(which he
MK> must have if he is really omniscient) then every
MK> thing that exists and the actions of everything
MK> were meant to happen in that manner and
MK> order...creation was his idea, and everything was
MK> pre-planned to be this way by Him a long time ago.
Very good...you have come to understand it. In the whole view of life,
there is no free will. Do you know what it really means when we say that
God is eternal. Eternity is like a spot, and to our view, it exists at
every spot of time. That is how God can be everywhere at once. It is an
infinite spot that is everywhere. God does know everything, and He can
SEE it all, because He is there. In the humans heavily handicapped point
of view, we have free will. We do not know what is going to happen, and
we do not know what we are going to do the next second. If we think we
do, something may happen that will change it. God already knows what will
happen though, because He can see it.
Here is another point of view for you. If you do not think that it works,
try to put yourself in God's position. You are eternal, and you can see
everything of the earth from beginning to end. You have all power, and
you have set things up in a logical manner, since the logic that the puny
humans have is just a distorted view of your own. You are so wise that
you are wiser then all humans in your foolishness(this is only to show how
much greater God is, doesn't mean it happens...), and stronger then all
humans in your weakness. You(looking from God's view) are the ruler of
the earth, and everything is your property. Because of this, you can do
whatever you please, and it is all moral.(I could destroy my computer, and
that is not evil, because it is my property...) Now you are not God, but
human. As a human, you can only see what is happening at a tiny spot in
time. The spot at which you are at. You are weak, and stupid next to this
God, and yet you think that you can figure Him out, or even reason Him away.
The only thing that there is to hold on to is free will. Well to the human
it is free will because he does not know what will happen, or what choice
he will make.
MK> This also makes me wonder if God has any choices of
MK> his own, his omniscience lets him know his own
MK> actions as well, thus he is held captive by his own
MK> power. Did he have any choice in creating the
MK> universe? Omnipotence: If God is omnipotent, then
Before even asking that, it is important to remember that we are cripples
next to God. God could fight us with all of his brains tied behind his
back...and he would still win...every time. Our view is to small to even
try to fathom every angle of God. We don't get angry at nature when we
don't totally understand it, yet every scientist will tell you that every
time we answer a question, many more make themselves known. We are to strive
to know God, but we will never fully understand Him, until we see Him.
MK> universe? Omnipotence: If God is omnipotent, then
MK> can he will himself out of existence? Can he
MK> create a stone so heavy that even HE cannot lift
MK> it? either answer, yes or no, strips him of this
MK> omnipotent status. Christians believe God to be the perfect loving
Please give your questions in a logical fashion. The two questions you
have asked are illogical. There are logical boundaries to everything.
Take the second question for example. If God can do everything, why would
He do something that cannot be done logically. It is circular in reasoning,
and therefore, there is no answer, and God remains unstripped. As to the
first one, why in the world would He WANT to will Himself out of existence.
Please, keep your questions logical, as God is logical.
MK> being, totally without flaw. Yet, by his own words
MK> he IS flawed. He claims to be a jealous god who
MK> yearns to be worshipped. This is clear evidence of
MK> insecurity, and why would an all powerful, all
MK> knowing being desire ANYTHING? Christianity states
MK> that Lucifer rebelled in heaven and was thus cast
MK> out. How did Lucifer have the capacity to grasp
MK> the concept of evil? Since Lucifer was God's
MK> creation, Lucifer thus was/is essentially OF God
MK> originally, so the capacity for evil must have
MK> existed also in God himself. Thats about enough,
First of all, where does it say that He yearns to be worshipped. I mean,
in an insecure way. If you were a god, and you created someone, and they
go worship a rock because they believe it created them, how would you feel?
He has every right to have all of His creation worship Him. He made it
all, and He is God
Ralph Jansen
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Programmers Connection OS/2 Warp (1:398/1)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:09:50
EID:1a5d 208ea920
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65578851
REPLY: 1:124/9005 316e0dfc
SQ> Tornado season is getting ready to whiz through Texas again...how
SQ> many churches will Yahweh get this year?
I noticed that there was a tornado out in.....in...damn....I forgot the
name of the little town but it was the same one that got ravaged three years
or so ago.
Nice guy, god.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: problems, troubles, woes
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:27:31
EID:0ef3 208eab60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6557c5e6
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895C438F
MH> The concern is not without merit, though the situation is not
MH> dire. That is as much as I care to say publicly at this
MH> point.
Don't know if you can get netmail, but I'll try anyway. No need to respond
in netmail, but a word int eh echo will let me know it arrived.
I find myself in the echo not so much to pester theists, but to take advantage
of the pure comedy that fanatacism genders. We get quite a stripe of fools
in there, on both sides of the issue. In my humble opinion, some of the
atheists in there are a stone's throw from dangerous. The Rice brothers
are prime examples. I have taken a few of them to task for unfounded statements
on more than one occasion.
The nature of fanaticism makes it difficult to predct where it will lead.
If you think that you are a rational person and others claim otherwise then
so be it. But you have to consider the source. I, for one, while I think
you are misguided on the issue of god, believe you to be a reasonable person
who dosen't seem to be too far afield when religion is brought up. People
that are fanatics, like the Rice Family and Marilyn B. have an agenda and
refuse to release it. Again, IMHO, twitting does no good. If you are going
to twit someone with a point of view other than your own, you may as well
twit everyone. This is what it seems thta Marilyn has done.
So, the answer to your question is that in my book, you hven't done anything
tht would (or should) offend anyone. It's all a bunch of tripe. Apologies
are wasted on those with an agenda. We're all just blips on a screen and
mostly we'll never meet each other.
Which itself is not true. I met Marty Leipzig over this medium and we have
become good friends. But at any rate, I wouldn't be too upset by anything
you read in a conference devoted to flaming as a debate tool. It's just
naot that important.
Martin
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Rob's various replies
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:39:38
EID:7dbf 208eace0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6557dd6d
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895C438E
MG>> This is because we have no evidence tht miracles occur.
MH> ROFL! And you never will, if you make a habit of refusing to
MH> examine possibilities.
Just this morning I was looking at the comics page reading a strip about
a young man who had an interesting theory ont he dinosaurs. He claimed
that they were wiped out by spacemen suing them for target practice. He
was having difficulty getting this published anywhere and his letter to
Stephen Jay Gould was returned unopened.
Sence there is no evidence for miracles, we cannot study them. When we
hear of a alrge body of water being parted down the middle, we just laugh,
just as we laugh t the comic strip. It's allegory or even just plain mythology
and you should recognize that.
MH> Miracles, by definition, are outside the scope of science. Many
MH> miracles have been reported, but because they cannot be
MH> investigated scientifically, scientists ignore them. It is a
MH> self-fulfilling prophecy.
It's pretty convenient that there is no evidence for miracles. Then you
go on to say that we simply cannot study them as there is no evidence.
Once again, I must remind you that real things leave real traces. Perhaps
a gret flood occured against all science. where is the evidence that it
did. If it is not there, what use could yourgod have for covering it up?
These are questions of a logical nature. it seems that each time your god
has the chance to show himself, he chooses to remain hidden. Why is this?
Maybe becuse he cannot show himself?
MH> reputable physicians -- several of them -- corrborated the
MH> claim. As a scientist, you could not duplicate the event. So
MH> would you concede that a miracle occurred? I suspect you'd
As a scientist I would predict that there was a misread x ray laying around
somewhere.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:59:53
EID:7143 208eaf60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6557fdaa
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316DE35D
MB> Thats about the size of it. That is why God promiesed never to do
MB> it again.
Then why have there been floods since that time that damaged property and
persons. Killed thousands during heavy rains in India. Why are there droughts
and diseases?
Why has your god not kept his promise.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hitler was a Christia
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:15:16
EID:70e3 208eb1e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 655829fb
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 338890c5
ef>> There WAS no extermination of the mentally ill, and
ef>> no steralization going on within _Nazi Germany_ for
ef>> "many years" prior to the concordat, simply because.....
ef>> There WAS NO NAZI GERMANY PRIOR TO 1933.
FR> Amazing. You don't happen to believe that the Jewish Holocaust
FR> didn't happen either, do you?
This whole thing has gotten silly.
I am not well read on Hitler and his personal views. However, it would
be difficult to convince me that Hitler did more than give lip service to
xtianity. it makes no difference to me wht he said for public consumption.
it makes no difference tht he reuired SS officers to be stian. It makes
no difference that he had the backing of some xtian churches. what went
on in his own mind is a lost secret that we will likely never know.
But more importantly, can you align xtians with Nazism? I don't know.
The experiment that you might could do is to ask the question "Had the Nazis
not picked the jews for extermination, would the jews have joined the Nazi
Party in large numbers just to be politically correct?" In other words,
did the fact that the Nazis ranks were filled with xitans mena that they
were the same or that just as an artifact of the situation that most nazia
were xitan as well.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:21:48
EID:dddc 208eb2a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65582f67
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 653f054b
JH> I notice Sue Armstrong posted her number recently, but voiced
JH> a reservation that she might be getting calls at 3 in the
JH> morning telling her she is going to go to Hell.
JH> I've saved the number... never can tell when you might be
JH> wide awake in the early morning hours.
Just for that, you're going to hell.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: NBC's Airing of "The Mysterious Origins of Man"
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:25:28
EID:e0eb 208eb320
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65583b9a
REPLY: 1:115/769.2 cd955d0f
BW> No Martin. I know for a fact, that you are a silly little fool.
BW> And as you being just a silly little fool, it doesn't do
BW> anything on my part to correct your error because you're
BW> totally hopeless. And I do predict you will remain hopeless
BW> until the day you die.
I've posted your little diatribe here many times. Only a fool would still
ahng on and claim that anyone here was stupid. Your whining doesn't chnge
the fact that you made Sagaon out to be a creationist.
BW> There you go lying your ass off again. I've never told a lie in
BW> here Martin. Of course, you fools claim otherwise, don't
There's another one.
BW> you? And I said from the very beginning to take good notes.
BW> Yet it's not my fault you can't follow simple first grade
BW> instructions. And yet since you didn't follow my directions,
BW> you have nothing to offer as evidence for your foolishness.
BW>
You come close to the twit filter. Just tkae your medicine like a man.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: ryan shaw
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 14:18:47
EID:857c 208e7240
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 1714e7c2
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Christopher Baker spewed forth the following ryan shaw:
> Would a all-powerful and loving god allow this to happen? One would
> think that a god with such qualifications would be quite able to get the
> young pilot through the thunderstorm and on to safety. Either that, or
> he has one very sick sense of `humor.'
CB> silly atheist. god moves in mysterious ways. man cannot judge god
CB> or discern his motives. [snicker]
In that case, god's a reall ass in my not so humble opinion. A real ass.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 14 Apr 96 02:41:11
EID:448e 208e1520
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e140652
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
MARK BARNETT spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MB>KDM>Like what?
MB>
MB>KDM>The Big Bang? Sorry, there's evidence for that.
MB>
MB>very shakey evidence.
Do you have any idea what the 4 K background temperature is? Or
why the universe is expanding? Both of those were predicted by the BB
theory, and both were shown to be true. If you've got a better
explanation, drag it out.
MB>KDM>Evolution? Evidence for that, too.
MB>
MB>Yes some really dotted lines, and a fake or two, but they have just
MB>about got it worked out now.
Huh? What do you call several hundreds of millions of years of fossils?
... If a tree falls in a forest and hits a mime, will either make a noise?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Defining death
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:17:05
EID:73e2 208c9220
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e1405ec
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
LEE WOOFENDEN spoke thusly to SUE ARMSTRONG:
LW>Here's what Sue Armstrong said to Rick Mcfarlane about Defining
LW>Death:
LW> LW> That's the "permanence" definition of death.
LW>
LW> RM> I guess we all can recognize that a skeleton is dead. But the
LW> RM> "dead dog" problem, as Lovelock put it (I've got these identical
LW> RM> twin dogs, lying here asleep at my feet, and one of them just
LW> RM> died, 2 seconds ago. What is the difference? What is it that
LW> RM> makes the one dog alive but the other dead?) is not an easy
LW> RM> question to answer.
LW> SA> Well, the obvious conclusion is, that the living dog still
LW> SA> respires, his heart still beats, cells still replace themselves,
LW> SA> there is still brain and neural activity, and it still digests
LW> SA> any food it might still have in its GI tract, while the dead dog
LW> SA> does none of these things. Also, the still-living dog will
LW> SA> eventually wake up and start doing his usual doggy things,
LW> SA> whereas the dead dog won't ever awaken.
LW>
LW>We know the results. The question is, what makes it be that way?
You're looking at the wrong scale, Lee. You're trying to show something
micro when death is due to something macro.
... Plastic explosives will be appropriate when truth and logic fail.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Flood impossibilities.
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:27:06
EID:0d5e 208c9360
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e1405fd
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
MIMI MILSTEIN spoke thusly to MICHAEL HARDY:
MM>Hey, don't put an attitude stamp on me. None of us know THE TRUTH.
MM>"Faith and/or illusions" have this in common that they are concepts
MM>of the mind, without any ironclad physical proof - which is why I
MM>used them opposite scientific methodology (which DOES demand proof).
No it doesn't. It can't, for that matter.
... Conservative Rule #4: Arguments are lost only to communists.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:28:07
EID:825a 208c9380
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e14060e
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
ELLIOTT FINESSE spoke thusly to STEVE WALLIS:
EF>In a message dated 04-07-96 Steve Wallis wrote to Fredric Rice:
EF>
EF>> Adolf hitler wasnt a Christian, he may have called himself one but
EF>> he as far from Christianity as you seem to be. Israel was told to
EF>> inhabit land, it was there's to possess.
EF>
EF>Not Christian but a theist just like you. Tell us the effective
EF>difference between Hitler and Moses. What did Hitler do that made
EF>him worse than Moses?
EF>
EF>We want your justification for god ordering the slaughter of innocent
EF>children and women captives. You keep ducking this point. I don't
EF>blame you, but all the same it makes you appear less than honest.
Shit, what did Hitler do that was worse then the OT God?
... Mary had a little ram - they've banned the video.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Lack of any evidence what
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:37:08
EID:3195 208c94a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e14061f
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to FREDRIC RICE:
AM>By Kevin Martin
AM>
AM> 1. Moon Dust
AM> 2. Magnetic Field
AM> 3. Fossil Record
AM> 4. Embryonic Recapitulation
AM> 5. Probability
AM> 6. Second Law of Thermodynamics
AM> 7. Vestigial Organs
AM> 8. Fossil and Fossil Fuel Formation
AM> 9. Punctuated Equilibria
AM> 10. Homology/Molecular Biology
AM> 11. Dating Methods
AM> 12. Dinosaurs
AM> 13. Sun's Diameter
AM> 14. Nile River's Overflow
AM> 15. Earth's Rotation
AM> 16. Written Record
AM> 17. The Bible
AM>
AM>
AM> 1. MOON DUST
AM>
AM> Meteoritic dust falls on the earth continuously, adding up to
AM>thousands, if not millions, of tons of dust per year. Realizing
AM>this, and knowing that the moon also had meteoritic dust piling
AM>up for what they thought was millions of years, N.A.S.A. scien-
AM>tists were worried that the first lunar ship that landed would
AM>sink into the many feet of dust which should have accumulated.
AM>
AM>However, only about one-eight of an inch of dust was found, indi-
AM>cating a young moon.
Wrong. One, yes, *one* geologist was worried about this. All his
colleagues disagreed with him. See _A Man on the Moon_, by Andrew
Chaiken. I'd give you a page number, but I returned the book to the
library a few days ago.
... Computer possessed! Re-boot with EXOR.SYS-- from Demonic Software
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: Mind control
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:40:09
EID:f154 208c9500
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e140630
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
LARRY JANSEN spoke thusly to ALL :
LJ>Did you ever notice how the Jews try make themselves look like
LJ>victims? This way they can subvert nations with impunity. They are
LJ>now "dragging out" the fabricated Holocaust again. Why don't we ever
LJ>hear about the "real" holocaust: where 65 million Chinese were
LJ>murdered by Mao, or the 40 million Russians who were slaughtered by
LJ>the Bolsheviks and the Jews. ... Catch the Blue Wave!
Go away, Mark. Go to a synagogue and spout this nonsense.
... Viking Rule of Acquisition #3: Never carry a dull axe.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Carl Linde
|Sub: Rules of conference
|Date: 14 Apr 96 02:38:10
EID:53c6 208e14c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e140641
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
CARL LINDE spoke thusly to ALL :
CL>Unfortunately, I don't seem to have the time that others do in this
CL>conference since it is a very prolific one. I have some other of my
CL>users that have asked if the rules for this conference have been
CL>posted lately. I have not seen them, but then I only get to browse
CL>every now and then.
Styx, the moderator, posts them monthly.
CL>Would it be possible to have the moderator please post a copy of the
CL>rules that I can put in my BBS files for others to look at to decide
CL>if they would like to become part of this free-for-all?
CL>I have noticed that anyone that posts anything remotely like a
CL>creationist theory seems to have to endure the rath of several
CL>protagonists. So those who boldy go here must have a slow fuse and a
CL>thick skin.
"Several protagonists?" Are we characters in a book now?
CL>What I have read so far would seem to indicate that there are a whole
CL>lot of mental midgets with closed minds. They seem to be unwilling to
CL>even look at anything that would upset their little apple cart (pun
CL>intended, even though it is a little one).
Yes, some of the fundies here are horrible that way.
CL>I see many that are
CL>willing to go to great lengths to quote their sources (many of which
CL>are from the same school of thought as they have) but are unwilling
CL>to even look at or discuss other sources that can be (and are) as
CL>viable and as provable as their points.
You have examples, I trust.
CL>This only goes to show me
CL>that they don't have all of their facilities open (only a couple of
CL>their brain cells are functioning).
Yes, it's horrible when people shut their brains off and embrace
fundamentalism.
CL>In regards to the language that some of these people (and I use the
CL>term loosely, VERY loosely) use, only shows that their vocabulary is
CL>indeed limited and not of sound moral character!!!
I'm probably one of the ones you're referring to. FYI, my
vocabulary is in the top 1 percent of the nation, and my moral character
is quite sound.
CL>It seems to be
CL>their last resort when they can't refute the idea presented or they
CL>are unwilling to carry on an inteligent conversation. If being a
CL>'potty-mouth' was a virtue, they would be 'Saints'.
Potty mouth? Not unless you can somehow demonstrate that there is
actually something wrong with those words.
CL>I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant!!
Well, it's a comparative thing. Hint: using words you don't like in no
way diminishes someone else's intelligence.
... A journey of a thousand miles begins with a cash advance.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Todd Andlar
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: hi
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:07:35
EID:1eb0 208e58e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 350ee51e
Hi! Well the debate is why haven't you called my board and if I
should purge you or not. It's me master of darkness.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Jerry Eakle
|Sub: Re: religions
|Date: 14 Apr 96 03:49:48
EID:4144 208e1e20
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 35040096
JE> Ok I am here to stir up some holy smoke. I am a reformed atheist.
I was w
JE> I was younger a christian until Junior High School or Middle School
dependi
JE> on where your at. I then became a atheist I have no idea why other
than I
JE> believe in Evolution. And still don't believe in immaculate conception.
I
JE> you can tell me how a woman can get pregnant from a nonhuman being a
spirit
JE> Or how a spirit can take the dirt from the earth and create a human
being.
JE> come when we are born why don't the men come from the earth and women
come
JE> from his rib bone? These may sound stupid but I think it was stuff
like th
JE> that caused me to become an atheist. I also am interested in why God
promo
JE> incest. When he made Adam and Eve they had Cain And Abel Cain went
to the
JE> land of Nod and got a wife. Who created the people of Nod? If it was
ince
JE> why did it not give the names of the people of Nod in the Genealogy
in the
JE> Bible?
So far, the only religion you have managed to trash, is Christianity. There
are many more religions out there worth exploring that do not believe any
of
what you seem to be upset about...
JE> I am also anti Catholic and Mormon and Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah's
JE> Witnesses. All four of them push religion on you. And the Mormons use
the
JE> Book of Mormon besides the Bible and that's considered a cult. I get
into
JE> arguments with Catholics because they feel there's is the only religion
the
JE> is. I consider myself Christian and am not affiliated to any church
like
JE> Methodist, Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran. Christian is my religion.
I am
JE> avid watcher of Trinity Broadcasting Network and they have this one
couple
JE> husband is Jeff Fenholt and he used to be a rock musician with Black
Sabbat
JE> and his wife Reeni Fenholt is a reformed Catholic. I like watching
their
JE> show. Ok enough for now.
And what are these televangelists doing except for selling religion and
taking
your cash just the same as the JW's or the Mormons? What is the big
difference?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: William Hsu
|Sub: Re: Survey
|Date: 14 Apr 96 03:55:43
EID:3e8f 208e1ee0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 35040097
WH> ~SURVEY ON VIEWS OF SIN AND LIFE AFTER DEATH~
WH>
WH> Age: Gender:
38 and female
WH> Denomination/Church group:
Native
WH> Do you or your church emphasize on one particular belief or some particular
WH> beliefs? (Yes/No)
Yes
WH> If so, what are they?
In basics--that everything in the universe has a place...
WH> How would you define sin?
I wouldn't. It's an Xian concept.
WH> Do you believe that there is a relationship between sin and suffering?
(Yes
WH> Please explain why:
Nope
WH> Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? (Yes/No)
No
WH> If Yes, on what basis do you believe people will be chosen for heaven?
This so-called religion survey is only covering the Xian viewpoint!
WH> Is it possible for non-Christians to go to Heaven? (Yes/No)
You mean after 2,000 years of oppression the Xians still think they ARE
going
to heaven?
WH> Please describe what you think Heaven and Hell are like:
How do I describe what I don't believe in?
Why is it, as soon as someone wants to say/survey/complain about religions
all
they ever come up with is xian concepts? Has it occurred to you that most
of
the world is NOT xian?
--- GEcho 1.00
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PATH: 2424/1004 1001 12/98 12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:18
EID:03af 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b47d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: Claims of deity construct wgah'nagl
fhtagn.
JG> First you have to define what god is. God is a spirit ! God is the
JG> truth! God is the spirit of truth and rightness and love .
PS> Are you going to start addressing reality, or are you going to skid
PS> into metaphysical claptrap that you can't substantiate?
JG> It is not a question of "substantiating" it, it is a question of
JG> "defining" it as such. That is MY definition of God. Addressing
Bully for you. Your definition of God seems to be a very vague and
nebulous one.
JG> whose reality ? Yours ? Your reality of denial that anything that
Reality is reality, and not a subjective property. Perception is another
thing entirely.
JG> is not a physical reality, does not exist. The reality of your life
Jim, you really must stop making these assumptions. Out of sheer curiosity
and perhaps a little mean-spirited fun, on what grounds do you base the
claim that I don't believe in anything that I can't see or feel?
JG> that then must be completely lacking in love , and peace, and joy,
JG> and spiritual TRUTH simply because you refuse to give credence to
JG> anything that is not physical in nature? You can have your reality and
Are you finished making outrageous claims about the contents and/or
quality of my life, Jim?
JG> You have your concept of reality, and I have mine. I think that your
JG> concept of reality that denies the reality of love flies in the
Put on the brakes there, chummer. Where have I denied the reality of
love? Think hard. Leaf through your archives, if you keep any. When
you've come up with the answer (I assure you that there is indeed an
answer and it doesn't at all match with your perception), then let me
know.
JG> The whole question of existence and life and mans perception of it are
JG> wide open to interpretation. You choose to limit yourself to the
JG> physical perception of "reality". And the 5 sense of man are so VERY
Really? And why do you make this faulty interpretation on exactly what
I base my perceptions of reality on?
JG> soomething we can see with our 5 senses. So don't talk to me about
JG> "reality". You have chosen to believe that all that exists is what you
I'll talk to you about reality all I like, Jim. While I certainly agree
with you that there are and probably always will be things that humanity
can't detect with our senses or with the technology at our disposal, I
can still talk about what we *can* detect. A limited picture of reality?
Perhaps--but it is the best one we have at present. Anything is possible,
Jim--but that doesn't mean that everything is worth scrutiny.
JG>But it still remains that whatever exists, came from somewhere. Write
JG> God is a spirit. God is NOT a physical being. But it does not mean
JG> that God does not exist anymore than saying the spirit of Christmas
JG> doesn't exist. The spirit of kindness.
Bang. Instantaneous claim. Your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
Forgive me if I feel compelled to disagree with you.
JG> "And the word was WITH god.
JG> For me God is the TRUTH God is the RIGHT
And I can see that we have agreed to disagree.
JG> god is LOVE God is all that is good. So no matter what our perception
Question: Why limit goodness by calling it "God"?
JG> is..."what is truth ? whose truth ? your truth ? my truth ? ...well
JG> god is THE TRUTH ! We may never know THE TRUTH or we may know THE
Goodness equals truth? What a remarkably interesting idea.
JG> Whatever THE TRUTH is, that is spirit of God. That is what we must
An odd definition, and bound to get you talked about. How do you know that
the truth is the spirit of God, Jim? Or do you know?
JG> Here is another concept. Everything that exists, man had to define.
So
JG> all that exists is just a definition by man. But of course before we
Here I must disagree, but that should come as no surprise. What if
something as yet undiscovered exists? Does it exist even though we
haven't defined it? Or are you reducing the whole of what may be unknown
to the status of the cat in Schroedinger's box?
JG> exist. But now they do and man has defined them as such. And man has
JG> declared that the good is GOD. and the EVIL is Satan. But they are
Not this man. My definition is different from yours. Does this mean that
God isn't really good, and Satan really isn't evil? Or is there some
other possibility?
JG> happened on the way to evolution. Man evolved into a SPIRITUAL BEING
by
JG> definition. Read the definition of the word spirit. And not only did
we
Did we? Or are we really no more sentient than cats or chimps?
JG> and REAL ! All this arguing about whether or not the stories in the
JG> bible actually took place, or were metaphoric, or even just made up,
JG> just detracts from the reality of the content of the teachings and
JG> concepts expressed in the bible.
And what is your point, exactly? That the Bible contains truth? This was
not really open to question; that the Bible is the source of THE TRUTH
? That *is* open to question.
PS> Not literally, one hopes. But the GoE story goes on to suggest that
PS> eating from the tree was forbidden by God. Why did God want to keep
us
PS> without the knowledge of good and evil?
JG> BUT what if there was no good and evil before Adam and Eve ate from
JG> the tree ? See it is a metaphor. Maybe the very concept of good and
What is there if there is no good or evil?
JG> If man has no concept of evil and nothing has been defined as a "sin",
JG> then it doesn't exist. However, at some point in time, the concept
This argument carries into semantics a bit. Let's sit down for a moment
and look at an example of what your statement can be:
You state that God is a spirit and is THE TRUTH . That is
your concept of God.
I state that God, in all likelihood, is a mythological being like any
other deity--though the possibility exists that he/she/it is a genuine
entity that can exist independent of the imagination. That is my
concept of God.
Our concepts differ, to say the least. As far as I can tell, there is no
commonly-accepted definition of what exactly this god thing is. Does that
mean that God doesn't exist?
JG> So the question being asked in this tree story, is where did evil
JG> first come from ? Why do men lie ? What was the first lie ? Now
JG> if we define God as Truth, then the first time man went against
JG> god/truth was the first sin.
As best as can be seen, evil is what happens when someone or something
intentionally harms another in the course of pursuing what that someone
or something sees as being to its benefit. That's one definition. It
suggests by extension that evil can be a threat to the species as a whole,
even if not a very large threat. That itself is another definiton. Why
do people do this? Possibly because they weigh the benefits against the
consequences and decide that the benefits win out.
In a sense, evil is a subjective term. Americans usually think of killing
Nazi soldiers during WWII as being good; a Nazi soldier would doubtlessly
disagree.
JG> As far as I am concerned, I AM addressing the issues. God has already
JG> been defined, 10,000 years ago. God exists, get used to it, deal with
JG> it.
Have I ever claimed otherwise, Jim?
JG> As I said before, some people might choose money as their god, or sex
JG> or power.
JG> Sociopaths ?
Yes. Sociopaths. Fascinating and horrifying things.
JG> They don't care what the spirit of god is saying to them. They aren't
Your opinion. Many sociopaths, by your definitions, say that they are
the spirit of their god. What you're defining as God is, as far as is
known, wholly different than their analogues to God. The spirit of
their god (and who is to say that their god isn't the real one?)
communicates with them regularly, and they are well aware of it and
quite agreeable to it.
... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. Or so I'm told.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:20
EID:c2e6 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b487
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Kevin D. Mckenzie Claims of deity construct wgah'nagl
fhtagn.
PS> KDM> dropped math, so I'm down to only two more credited hours then
PS> KDM> I actually need. Of course, due to Case math, this means I'm
PS> KDM> taking about 24.
PS>My condolences. It turns out that I'm a psychology major who isn't
PS>taking any psychology courses next semester--I've had all of the ones
PS>I'm eligible for that they're offering.
KDM> Got to love college, eh?
Most assuredly. I've just gotten the full list of requirements for joining
the FBI, though--I'll need to plunk down about $4000 for surgery unless
they lower their vision requirements, dammit.
... "Maybe I'm just going crazy." - Luke
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Faith of the atheist
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:20
EID:1bfd 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b488
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Kevin D. Mckenzie Faith of the atheist wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DW> PS> But then, it's always been my contention that we're all
DW> PS> agnostics, when you get right down to it.
DW>You agnostics are just confused. Climb down off that fence and join
DW>us on the Dark Side, Preston. :)
KDM> Especially since you don't get your Satanic support checks until
KDM> after you've declared your atheism. The declaration is a bit messy,
KDM> but Preston probably won't mind . . . he could get rid of his rat.
Or my dad's cat. The little bitch likes to steal Pixel's food.
... I have a firm grip on reality. Now I can strangle it.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Carl Linde
|Sub: Rules of conference
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:20
EID:9c88 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b489
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Carl Linde Rules of conference wgah'nagl fhtagn.
CL> I have noticed that anyone that posts anything remotely like a
CL> creationist theory seems to have to endure the rath of several
The wrath, too. But hey, that's what it's like with the Global Scientific
Conspiracy being so well-represented here.
CL> protagonists. So those who boldy go here must have a slow fuse and a
CL> thick skin.
To say the least. This place isn't for sissies.
CL> What I have read so far would seem to indicate that there are a whole
CL> lot of mental midgets with closed minds. They seem to be unwilling to
Yes. Many of them are Christians. A few are non-Christians--but for some
reason, they seem to be fewer in number than their counterparts.
CL> In regards to the language that some of these people (and I use the
CL> term loosely, VERY loosely) use, only shows that their vocabulary is
CL> indeed limited and not of sound moral character!!! It seems to be
Language is a tool used for communication. Using it as an ironclad
indicator of a person's moral fiber, so to speak, is equivalent to
using a person's telephone to judge the same thing. Further, I know
a great many people with vocabularies that are more broad than mine
(itself not inconsiderable, if I do say so), and yet they, like I,
occasionally feel the need to refer to a spade as a fucking shovel.
That's the way it is in real life. They're words, for pity's sake.
They're not bullets and they're not swords. One of the biggest reasons
why people get offended at other people's language is because they
*let* themselves be offended. I stopped being offended at what most
folks call vile language years ago because I knew that they were just
words and couldn't hurt me if I didn't let them.
CL> their last resort when they can't refute the idea presented or they
are
CL> unwilling to carry on an inteligent conversation. If being a
CL> 'potty-mouth' was a virtue, they would be 'Saints'.
Myself, I try to make it a tactic of first resort. If someone presents an
outrageous idea, I often make it a point to refer to said idea and/or
its presenter as having any number of unsavory traits.
CL> I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant!!
You've brought a knife to a gunfight. Have fun.
... It IS as bad as you think and they ARE out to get you.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: better than
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:21
EID:6846 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b48a
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Robert Jackson better than wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DM> Your nose is just there to function as a glasses-perch--that
DM> sort of thing?
PS> Something like that. A nail could do the job just as well.
RJ> Wow, does that mean you can, like, do that geek trick where
RJ> you hammer a nail into your nostril?
Goodness, no. Not that I've ever *tried*, of course. What if the
hammer should miss?
... Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: evidence...
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:21
EID:7537 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b48b
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Robert Jackson evidence... wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> anybody from Asia proper is probably the kind of person that could
PS> survive anything up to and including a global flood or a nuclear war.
RJ> Wouldn't doubt it. We're talking about a section of the
RJ> globe with the highest population density...which also has
RJ> a history with the highest density of multimillion-casualty
RJ> genocides and famines since about the 8th-century BC. That's
RJ> tenacity.
True. One wonders if giving people something other than sex as a pastime
would do them any good. Then again, they may be overproducing because
failure to do so would mean their extinction. Who knows?
... If televangelists talk to God, why can they only get on cable?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
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SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:21
EID:6d57 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b48c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Barnett ANGEL FUNDY wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS>A hydrosphere is the total of all water existing on earth in all of its
PS>forms (water vapor, liquid, ice) in all locations (the atmosphere, the
PS>oceans, underground, ice caps).
MB> I understand that.
Good.
PS>Now then, if by some accident, all of the water on earth were to be in
PS>liquid form and dumped onto the surface of the earth, you'd still need
PS>two entire more hydrospheres of water to do the job the flood describes.
MB> ok if you say so I have not looked that up.
Trust me. I did the math on it. If you want to find out for yourself,
though, here's the easy way:
Determine the volume of the earth as a whole (done by taking the cube
of the Earth's radius, multiplying by pi [3.14159 is close enough], and
multiplying that answer by 4/3rds [or 1.33]).
Then, perform the same calculation again--only this time, add about 5
miles to the radius before you begin cubing and multiplication. Take
this number, and from it subtract the one you got in the first calculation.
It's rough, crude, and you'll be lucky to get a decent answer within three
significant figures, but that's about how much water (in cubic miles or
whatever units you used) it would take to flood the earth. As you can see
from the number you'll get (I can't remember the exact figure for the
hydrosphere), it's about three times the size of the actual hydrosphere.
PS>Even if you got this extra water from somewhere (where?), then it still
PS>has to go back there when the flood's over (the water cycle is a closed
PS>one, see?).
MB> I understand that we us the same water over and over again.
Good. Those some of the problems confronting those who say that there was
a
global flood--and those are the easy ones. Melting the icecaps isn't
enough to do the job--that would raise the water level by perhaps 300 feet.
... DM Advice: Dead monsters are *always* naked and penniless.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Someone please lend Mr. B
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:21
EID:57da 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b48d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Barnett Someone please lend Mr. B wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS>Yup. He usually jumps up and down on people like you pretty hard. Me,
I'm
PS>trying to be a nice guy about this.
MB> Thanks, Me I just want to have some good conversation.
You may be in luck yet.
PS>Perhaps, but I rather like my answer. Sure, it doesn't provide comfort
or
PS>inspire faith, but it's the truth as far as we know.
MB> Inspired faith is not allways an easy comfort to have, but it is
MB> allways a good comfort to have. The Lord never promised to make it easy
I wonder. As I've seen it, religious faith of a large dimension is most
often used by people who without it would be mostly helpless in the face
of life's adversities. The truly strong seem to have no need of it in
large quantities.
MB> but he did promise that He would be their for us in the end. I'm not
He wasn't there for me.
... Don't worry, I won't let them shoot you. Not without a trial. CX
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:21
EID:a043 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b48e
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Selena Kerr Re: The end? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
SK> I have been stabbed in the back and insulted by christians so many
SK> times.. i can't count that high...(that is not to imply that i lack
SK> intelligence and i can't count).. i have given up on that faith
Don, if you haven't heard already, isn't a Christian.
SK> completely.. and i am sick of them thinking that they are the best and
Not all of them think that way. Many do, but not all.
SK> only religion.. get off your high horse. I don't care if i deserve
SK> it. If i give them back a fraction of the hell that they gave me I
SK> will be happy. Wrath.
"An eye for an eye leaves the world blind."
... "Calvin? Who's Calvin? I'm *Stupendous Man*!" -- Calvin
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jerry Eakle
|Sub: religions
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:21
EID:9cb8 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b48f
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jerry Eakle religions wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JE> Ok I am here to stir up some holy smoke. I am a reformed atheist.
I
Buckle up. This is going to be a rough ride.
JE> School depending on where your at. I then became a atheist I have no
JE> idea why other than I believe in Evolution. And still don't believe
A silly reason to become an atheist. Any fool can believe. It takes
intelligence to ask questions and examine the evidence.
JE> in immaculate conception. If you can tell me how a woman can get
JE> pregnant from a nonhuman being a spirit. Or how a spirit can take the
"It's a miracle! It's a miracle!"
JE> bone? These may sound stupid but I think it was stuff like that that
JE> caused me to become an atheist. I also am interested in why God
Asking questions, however, is a good reason to become an atheist if you
can no longer tolerate a religion. Atheism is *not*, contrary to popular
and erroneous belief, the disbelief in a deity; rather, it is the
lack of belief (not the same as disbelief, which is itself belief) in a
deity.
JE> of Nod in the Genealogy in the Bible? I am also anti Catholic and
JE> Mormon and Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah's Witnesses. All four
of
JE> them push religion on you. And the Mormons use the Book of Mormon
A few points: I attend a Catholic university. Nobody has pushed any
religion on me during the three years that I've been there. Same for the
three years I spent in a Catholic high school. Your experience is probably
different from mine, but don't make the mistake of thinking that your
experience was everybody's experience.
JE> besides the Bible and that's considered a cult. I get into arguments
Considered a cult by whom? According to Webster's, Christianity as a whole
can be considered a cult.
JE> with Catholics because they feel there's is the only religion there
A generalized statement. I know many Catholics who *know* that theirs is
not the only religion.
JE> is. I consider myself Christian and am not affiliated to any church
JE> like Methodist, Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran. Christian is my
Non-denominational. Why are Catholics not Christians? They were responsible
for keeping Christianity alive in Europe during the Dark and Middle Ages,
you know.
JE> religion. I am an avid watcher of Trinity Broadcasting Network and
I pity you for your lack of taste.
JE> reformed Catholic. I like watching their show. Ok enough for now. May
JE> God Bless You All!!!!! Praise The Lord!!!!!!
JE> Jesus Is My Savior!!!!
JE> GOD Bless
I'll pass on the blessings. I used to be a Christian and know from my own
experience that God doesn't give these blessings to everybody, if anyone
at all.
... "It appears you are to be the main course at a banquet in my honor."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Alan Hess
|To: Bill Arnold
|Sub: Holocaust Hoax
|Date: 14 Apr 96 15:26:45
EID:aa34 208e7b40
Whilst masticating on , Bill Arnold (1:123/318)
wrote to All:
BA> There is one survey of the Jewish question in Europe during World War
Two
BA> and the conditions of Germany's concentration camps which is almost
unique
So now you're stealing Mark Wehr's material? The Bluff City Algorithm (you
and your multiple names) gets more pathetic every day.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Alan Hess
|To: Adolph Hitler
|Sub: Vermin!
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:31:53
EID:dd0d 208eabe0
Whilst masticating on , Adolph Hitler (1:123/319)
wrote to All:
AH> The Jew is like a virus: once it infects a nation, the host dies.
Like the Bluff City Algorithm has infected Memphis, and is killing Tennessee?
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000 1041 1082 1137 1180
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 11 Apr 96 07:16:00
EID:20a4 208b3a00
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 316F39B7
DC> JG> The Genesis account states that the mountains were covered with
DC> JG> water. Sediment settles out of water.
DC>Explain the limestone on top of Mt Everest.
Actually, I was waiting for a reply from the evolutionists on
this. Does this mean that you give up?
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 11 Apr 96 08:46:00
EID:20a4 208b45c0
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 316F39B8
DC> JG> and several dating methods for the earth indicate an approximate
age
DC> JG> of about 20,000 years or less.
DC>"Lucy" shows that you are wrong, by a factor of 400 or so. As to
DC>the earth, you are off by about a factor of 2.5 thousand.
"Lucy" is a good example of the confusion among evolutionists regarding
dating methods. After his discovery, Donald Johanson announced at press
conferences that "Lucy" was 3.5 million years old.
Based on potassium-argon dating, fission-track dating, paleomagnetic
dates, and fossil vertebrates, Richard Leakey established a FIRM age of
2.6 million years for the KBS tuff under which "Lucy" was found. (Nature
242:447, 1973; Sci. Amer. 239(2):57, 1978)
These dates, however, presented a problem: "Lucy" predated some of her
supposed ancestors. This prompted Cronin, et al. to redate the KBS tuff
using potassium-argon dating, tuff chemistry, and fission track dating.
He arrived at a convenient date of 1.8 million years. (Nature
292:113, 1981)
This information is from the book, Evolution: The Challenge of the
Fossil Record by Duane T. Gish, Ph.D.
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR * LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 11 Apr 96 09:17:00
EID:d2f3 208b4a20
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 316F39B9
RB>JG> If evolution requires more than about 14,000 years there is plenty
of
RB>JG> evidence to the contrary. People have been around for 6,000 years,
RB>JG> and several dating methods for the earth indicate an approximate
age
RB>JG> of about 20,000 years or less.
RB>And I thought dinosaurs were extinct! The 'youngearthosaurus' lives!
Careful - if you don't ignore the facts, you might "evolve" into one
yourself!
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 11 Apr 96 18:43:00
EID:1b77 208b9560
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 316F39BA
PS>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jerry Gilbreath SCIENCE VS. FAITH wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> JG> Given current estimates of the distance of the stars and the
PS> JG> speed of light, 20,000 years is probably a good number. However,
PS>On what data, exactly, do you base this?
This information was from Judith Bandsma in his post to me dated 4-2-96
(07:55). I do not take issue with his source other than the fact that
it seems to be uniformitarian in concept.
PS> JG> I do not believe that the speed of light has been constant since
PS> JG> the universe was created. Some scientists believe that the
PS>Why?
PS> JG> speed of light has been slowing down.
PS>Name these scientists, their credentials, and the publications in which
PS>they made these stipulations.
This information was given in a lecture at a meeting of the Metroplex
Institute of Origin Science in Dallas. If my memory serves me well,
a scientist in the 1800's first performed the experiment measuring the
speed of light using light from one of the planet's moons while it was
on the other side of the solar system. The U.S. Naval observatory
repeated the experiment this century with results showing a decrease in
the speed of light. The experiment is simple, so the results are
believable.
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
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PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 12 Apr 96 07:32:00
EID:7ff1 208c3c00
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 316F39BB
DM> JG> the universe was created. Some scientists believe that the
DM> JG> speed of light has been slowing down.
DM> Name three scientists who do, and present the reference
DM>to the peer-reviewed journal in which they present their
DM>evidence for so believing.
I can't help you with references right now. My information is
from a lecture I attended in Dallas, and I don't have a transcript.
DM>less dramatic. Now, what evidence (apart from the mystic
DM>imaginings of Psalms) have you for the mountains actually
DM>being significantally shorter 6,000 years ago?
The Bible seems to be the most accurate source about the flood
apart from geology itself. I see no reason to doubt Psalms.
DM>DM> We know from geology that floods leave evidence in direct
DM>DM> proportion to their size (this stratum would, for instance, be
DM>DM> far thicker than any other ever created and would cover all the
DM> JG> Take a look at the Grand Canyon. It contains hundreds of
DM> JG> feet of sediment that was deposited rather quickly.
DM> Would you be so kind as to provide your evidence from a
DM>peer-reviewed journal of geology that the sedimentary
DM>deposits of the Grand Canyon were laid down within the past
DM>6,000 years?
While I look, maybe you can provide evidence from a
peer-reviewed journal of geology that the sedimentary deposits
of the Grand Canyon were ever exposed to erosion. If it took
very long at all to deposit the sediment, surely it must have
been exposed for some time, even if it was still under water.
(I am not talking about the cataclysmic event that washed the
sediment out of the canyon, but usual gullies, plant growth etc.
that would be expected if the sediment were not deposited
quickly.)
Also, there is a conspicuous lack of meteorites in the sediment.
Why did they suddenly start AFTER the sediment was deposited,
with no evidence of meteorites DURING the time it was laid down?
This indicates the sediment was deposited so fast that there was
no time for meteorites to accumulate. All this seems consistent
with a 6,000 year old earth.
If you can't find peer-reviewed evidence contrary to this, just
offer any plausible explanation that comes to mind.
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 11 Apr 96 10:35:00
EID:dd3e 208b5460
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 316F39BC
EF>Expect some mail from John Brawley. Here is a little taste for ya:
Don't get your hopes up. Your champion seems to have missed the whole
point of Gentry's work.
The point is that there is no evidence of any parent radioactive
elements that could account for the polonium's existence. With
no parent element, the polonium must have been primordial. This
is particularly significant since the half life of polonium 218
is 3 minutes. This is hardly enough time for piece of granite
a few miles thick to cool from a molten state.
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 130/113 108 509 1008 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Genesis problems [1/4]
|Date: 12 Apr 96 09:02:00
EID:f8ac 208c4840
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 316F39BD
SA>Is your faith strong enough to answer the challenge? Is it even
SA>strong enough to allow you to read the following posts?
I do this as a hobby. You are trying to turn it into a career!
I will answer a few, but I can't take the time to deal with
all of them.
SA> How did animals travel from all over the world?
SA> * Some, like the sloths, can't travel overland very well at all.
We don't know how far the sloths had to go, but they had 100
years to get there.
SA> * Some, like koalas, require a special diet. How did they bring
it
SA> along?
We don't know about the koalas' diet at that time or what plants grew
near the ark.
SA> * Some, like the dodo, must have lived on islands. (If they
didn't,
SA> they would have been easy prey for other animals.)
SA> If animals all lived fairly close to Noah before the flood (as
SA> Whitcomb & Morris suggest), how were they all able to survive
the
SA> predation and competition pressures from all the others, and
why
SA> doesn't evidence of their living together show up in fossil
SA> distributions?
There is no evidence of predatory behavior before the flood. Conditions
were much different then, so it is very reasonable to expect that
behavior has changed as well. Pre-flood conditions have been duplicated
by Dr. Carl Baugh in a hyper-baric chamber with some amazing results.
The growth rate of fish, the structure of snake venom, and the life span
of fruit flies are now known to be affected.
SA> How was the ark loaded? The Bible says all the animals were all loaded
in
SA> seven days [Gen. 7:4]. Even if there were only 9 million species
to
SA> be loaded, there would have to be an average of 30 animals per
SA> second going through the ark's one door.
Much variety can be obtained by selective breeding. Genesis states that
every KIND of animal was on the ark, not every possible breed.
Creationists estimate less than 3000 kinds of animals were on the ark.
SA> How was the ark made seaworthy? The longest wooden ships in modern
seas
SA> are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps
SA> and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was
450
SA> feet long [Gen. 6:15].
As I mentioned before, the conditions before the flood affected life
forms in ways that are not seen today. It is possible that the wood was
stronger. It is also possible that Noah was a better ship builder than
those of today. (Note that Noah's proportions are used in modern
ships.)
SA> How did Noah supply food and water for all the animals for a year?
[Gen.
SA> 6:21] Food for a year would have taken up many times the space
of
SA> the animals themselves. (I know of no animals, except some desert
SA> amphibians, that hibernate for anywhere close to a year.)
These assumptions are probably based on animals living a normal life in
a favorable habitat. I think that under the conditions of the flood and
in the ark's environment, hibernation could have been possible for many
animals that don't normally hibernate.
SA> How was the food kept fresh for a year? (Aphids, e.g., can't eat wilted
SA> plants.)
Plant life was probably greatly affected by the pre-flood conditions
(higher atmospheric pressure, higher oxygen content, reduced ultra
violets,etc.) We don't know about how fast they spoiled.
SA> How did creatures needing special environments survive on the
SA> ark?
Certain animals require special environments presently; however, we do
not know what their requirements were before the flood.
SA> How well ventilated was the ark? The body heat from millions of closely
SA> packed animals must have been very intense.
On the other hand, it may have been very comfortable. Evidence of ice
forming at the poles in a completely tropical world indicates that the
water might have been pretty chilly.
SA>The flood:
SA> Where did the water come from? (It would take 4.4 billion cubic
SA> kilometers to cover Mt. Everest.)
SA> Where did it go?
Apparently water was stored in chambers under the surface, as well as
above the sky. Evidence shows that there may have been enough water
above the earth to affect gravity. This involves applying the square
cube rule used by body builders to dinosaurs.
After the flood, the continents were formed from a single land mass,
creating the forces to push the mountains to new heights while making
more room for water by increasing the diameter of the earth. See Psalms
104:8.
Sorry, that is all I have time for.
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
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|From: Jerry Gilbreath
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 12 Apr 96 09:07:00
EID:e6be 208c48e0
MSGID: 1:130/113.2 316F39BE
MM>Marty is going to love that one :-)))
MM>I think balony is more up your creek than polonium.
Why let Marty have all the fun? Jump right in!
BTW, I deny eating balonium sandwiches for lunch.
In Christ,
Jerry Gilbreath
þ SLMR 2.1a þ
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: A point of light off of Wonk's World (1:130/113.2)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 08:47:07
EID:883b 208e45e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 0a170ee1
REPLY: 1:116/19 035D0AB8
On (12 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Judith Bandsma...
JB> In case you haven't heard about it yet, we've got a really sticky one
JB> going on here in SC. A 'concealed weapon' bill (that looks like it's
about
JB> to pass) that would PROHIBIT business owners from banning guns in the
JB> workplace. Employees could carry concealed weapons, no matter what the
JB> management policy is (or was).
AS> Including the post office? Scary.
Local laws have no jurisdiction in a Federal Post Office. They can
make any hare-brained law they want to, and the U.S. Postal
Service is still at liberty to ban any weapons in their
establishments. If the locals don't like it, they'll just have to
lump it.
... And on the 8th day God said, "Ok, Murphy, you're in charge."
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 14 Apr 96 15:01:42
EID:a2cf 208e7820
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 6ff3aa00
REPLY: 1:116/19 035CC85A
On (12 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...
DC> be found and studied. It's only the second or third hand
DC> interpretation of the data, collected by possibly an amazed
DC> individual that gets skewed in the process.
AS> Funny. That's sort of how I interpret other peoples' myths...
DC> Seems like you have begun to understand my subtlety.
AS> But I'm not as sure you understand mine. I.E., the Gospel of John,
AS> written by an eyewitness...
Do you have any reputible authority for that claim? Everything
I've read puts John as one of the later books, LEAST likely to
have been penned by the person whose name it bears.
I can tell you one thing for sure: Mack, in _Who Wrote the New
Testament_ says in the prologue that Theide is whistling past
the graveyard on this one, and he says it is VERY scathing language
of both Theide's language, and his motives.
... Clones are people two.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: better than
|Date: 14 Apr 96 18:36:27
EID:d0cc 208e9480
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 f4b51d60
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895F0E29
Word salad got tossed at Preston Simpson by Dan Ceppa on 12 Apr 96
-> On 04-11-96 22:30, Preston Simpson got back to Don Martin
DM> Oh, yeah? You'll be talking out of the other side of
DM> your nostril when your upper lip rusts . . .
PS> That's why one uses galvanized nails, silly.
DC> Use PTFE coated nails... You can shoot them with a nail gun
DC> into your hand with minimal cause for worry of infection.
DC> Besides, they penetrate far smoother than the galvanized type!
Jesus H. Christ, what is this, a carpenter's convention?
Myself, I prefer a channel aluminum cross and a pop rivetool for
this type of installation.
Regards,
Gutters-N-Downspouts, Inc.
... Green Eggs and Hamlet: "Alas, poor Sam-I-am, a man of infinite jest!"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORMS
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:57:10
EID:02ca 208e4f20
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 936f1e8a
On (12 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...
AS> I knew when I posted that, that others would say "What's the
AS> difference?" considering my own beliefs. Well, the difference
AS> is this.
AS> (A) Multiple witness for most of the miracles
You're not thinking things through again. Are you REALLY ready to
tell us that your god only pulls rabbits out of a hat when he can
show off, rather than when the rabbit-pulling is needed?
AS> (B) Jesus didn't miraculously cause a fig tree to grow and
AS> THEN cause it to wither. Any more than He turned the water
AS> into wine, and then yelled,"Don't drink it!" and poured it
AS> all out on the ground. Branham is claiming God miraculously
AS> created some squirrels where there were none before, for the
AS> express purpose of Branham having the thrill of bagging them.
God wasn't the one that made the fig tree grow, huh? News to me.
The squirrels had other purporses prior to Branham's shooting
them, too. All his god did was get them to hold a meeting at the
right time, in the right place. Them being created just for the
purpose of Branham bagging them is Branham's perception of the
event, but not necessarily god's actual thought processes.
Branham, after all, has a finite mind and cannot conceive the
infinite (though he may admittedly be closer to doing it than the
rest of us, since he is chosen of god).
... Pure drivel tends to drive away ordinary drivel.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:30:28
EID:a8dc 208e4bc0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d48e272f
REPLY: 1:116/19 035D3D76
On (12 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Rob Burcham...
AS> AND that the similarity between the various mythos, as so well pointed
out
AS> by Campbell, needs explaining.
RB> Animal gods, part animal-part human gods, many human-like gods, one
AS> human-like
RB> god...for the most part, a progression from the primitive to the more
RB> civilized.
AS> Actually, I was thinking of the dying/resurrected god/hero
AS> motif, the "Hero of a THousand Faces". There is indeed a
AS> progression in some religions, but why are animal gods less
AS> "evolved" than human gods? After all, why should a divine
AS> intelligence be more like us than, say, a sentient cat? After
AS> all, I usually respect a story about aliens that are LESS
AS> like us than more like us...Larry Niven's kzinti seem more
AS> "real" than, say, Superman or Mr. Spock.
You're missing the point. The progression in question took place
over millennia. One specific religion didn't necessarily evolve
into another, but when it did, the records are spotty enough so we
only get a glimpse of the actual evolution. The process isn't much
different from the amount of records we have of genetic evolution,
as compared with the number of steps that were actually involved
in the process from one-cell-creature to Man.
... Love is blind - marriage is the eye-opener.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Homeless
|Date: 14 Apr 96 08:36:56
EID:6528 208e4480
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 52fdd030
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a214
On (13 Apr 96) Elliott Finesse wrote to Marilyn Burge...
EF> Jeeze, what a drag. How long ago did you have to deal with
EF> this shit?
We were married in July of '64. We started living together in about
December of '63. By the time Louie wass born (December '66), we had
a fairly decent apartment in an old converted house. By his second
birthday, we were renting the little house. By his fourth birthday,
we had purchased the place from the landlord.
We had each other. It wasn't that much of a drag, so long as we
had that.
... Coming soon from Microsoft: Mouse support for EDLIN!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Inflation
|Date: 14 Apr 96 15:04:21
EID:d592 208e7880
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 044582db
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a21c
On (13 Apr 96) Elliott Finesse wrote to Marilyn Burge...
EF> Well, maybe we should define "unemployment" so we won't be
EF> talking about different things. The last time I checked the
EF> "official" unemployment figure counts only those eligible for
EF> unemployment insurance benefits. So using those figures, 100%
EF> employment would not mean the same thing as: "everyone who
EF> wants a job has one."
This isn't the proper echo for this conversation. The word
"unemployment" makes no difference, as she used the term
"100 percent employment," which, admittedly as a totally
different connotation. I understand the difference in a
VERY intimate way. I've worked on the key economic indicators
for a living since 1980.
And, as I said at the beginning of this conversation, I was
merely trying to point out to her that if the economist in
question was saying that "100 percent employment" was a bad
thing, he was telling the truth. The only time in recorded
history that I know of where it has occurred is in Soviet
Russia, and I doubt if anybody wants a repeat of that little
deadly experiment.
... "Is there a Lawyer in the House? -=}BLAM!{=- Any more!?"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: labels 1/2
|Date: 13 Apr 96 21:01:30
EID:8079 208da820
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 19548868
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 316f8b80
On (13 Apr 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Michael Hardy...
LB> Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about labels 1/2:
MH> You are a Christian in a more philosophical sense. I think you
MH> sincerely try to live out Christ's teachings, although -- as you know
LB> And of what benefit, according to your beliefs, is there in one who
is
LB> "philosophically" a Christian? Carry on with your honesty, and tell
LB> me if you think me damned?
MH> No, I do not think you damned. Why on earth would I? And why on earth
MH> would you think I would? Being a Christian in the philosophical sense
MH> is the more important of the two! While I don't see any reason to not
MH> take the miraculous events of the gospels as fact, I also don't see
MH> any reason to insist that such a view is necessary for salvation.
MH> I know too many Christians who believe the "right" facts, but their
MH> lives don't reflect what they claim they believe. I know Christians
MH> such as you who question the facts, but believe wholeheartedly the
MH> underlying spiritual truths, and whose lives bear out that belief.
MH> Why should I think the former is saved and not the latter?
LB> :) I'll admit you set me back on my heels with the above. Michael,
I
LB> can see that you are trying very hard to repair things between us, and
LB> to say what you *honestly* think here instead of trying to "debate"
LB> this. Thank you.
He's a liar. Everything he's posted points in exactly the opposite
direction. Consider: if he REALLY believed what he's posting now,
he'd've been jumping up and down with glee when I expressed a positive
interest in what Spong had to say. Also, he wouldn't have spent the
last six months trying to engage you in a debate about Spong, but
would have left you alone, secure in the conviction that even though
you two disagreed, you were both on the right track. But, nooooo.
He did neither of these things, but rather said in one post that
accepting the historical Jesus was "pointless." (His word, not mine.)
And badgering both of us to try to get us to see the truth as he saw
it.
He's a liar, Lynda, pure and simple.
... Think hard now! Which one is Shinola?`
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 14 Apr 96 09:36:19
EID:fec0 208e4c80
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 5737db9f
REPLY: 1:116/19 035D3286
On (12 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Styx Allum...
SA> Agreed. Processed. All-time exclusion count now totals 5
SA> individuals.
AS> And I'll try to watch the spelling. I don't want to be the
AS> sixth.
Yes. That WOULD BE excessively annoying.
... Ignorance is free but it exacts an enormous price
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Ric Carter
|Sub: Question
|Date: 13 Apr 96 23:29:37
EID:aae6 208dbba0
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 68596280
Word salad got tossed at MARK CRAIG by Ric Carter on 10 Apr 96
RC> Blue: the color of testicles immersed in icewater. The pyramid is
RC> obviously a secret shrine to St. Elvis, who utilized the icewater
RC> treatment to assuage the pain of his syphallus-ravaged genitalia.
RC> St. Elvis holds a high position in the neo-Masonic pantheon in the
RC> New South, hence the pyramid. This temple won't be consecrated
RC> until Walpurgis Night 1999, when Jodie Foster will be sacrificed
RC> on the obsidian shrine in the pyramid's seventh cellar. Observe.
I'm one of the resident smartasses on ATHEISM, and we could use a
little of this over there. If you sign on right away, you'll get a
short fundy morality questionaire that's presently making the rounds. I
had a lot of fun with it.
Edweird
... Avoid doctors who put both hands on your shoulders during a prostate
exam.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: Saint Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/40.762)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 105/40 50 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Ed Mills
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Thanks
|Date: 14 Apr 96 18:46:07
EID:8335 208e95c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 9f6247e7
Word salad got tossed at All by Styx Allum on 13 Apr 96
-----------------------------------------------------------
SA> thanking me for giving Boy George the grand heave-ho.
SA> It's never fun for me to resort to cutting feeds, but it has
SA> proven to be a necessary evil on rare occasions.
SA> Thanks for making it worth the time & effort.
Did that have something to do with the borrowed-book-held-hostage
debacle that I caught a few peripheral glimpses of recently? It's too
bad. I was getting quite a bit of good target practice with his
Daily Biblethump. You can really pull your shot groups in with those
stationary benchrest silhouettes!
It's heartening to see that this, the Ringling Bros. & Barnum &
Bailey of religious food fight echos is moderated a scant 70 miles
from my place of youth, the incredibly cerebral Roseburg. Well,
Myrtle Creek, actually. Around them parts, our favorite right-wing
fruitcake is reverently called "Saint Lon".
Nicetameetcha!
Edweird
... MABONISM: compensatory politics of God-fearing pedophiles in cowboy
boots.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: Saint Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/40.762)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: hi
|Date: 14 Apr 96 16:28:02
EID:7246 208e8380
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6554f33d
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 31701e99
On Apr 13 07:08 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
JH>> I'll be in Baltimore May Day and will be meeting Don
JH>> Martin (I've also tried to lure Lynda to this, but she's
JH>> not replied to my invitation.)
DM> Yes, she has. Fido may have eaten her reply when it
DM> attempted to cross the Mississippi. Last I heard, she was
DM> looking forward to it, and I spoke with her voice to give
DM> her directions to my office.
She clarified that point.
I still haven't seen her original message.
It'll probably get here in October.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
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SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Steamed Rice
|Date: 14 Apr 96 16:33:26
EID:c913 208e8420
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6555060f
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1c5
On Apr 13 14:43 96, Elliott Finesse of 1:215/130 wrote:
EF>> Now I'm not saying that no extermination of the
EF>> mentally ill, and no sterilization took place prior to
EF>> 1933. I don't know - nor does it bear on the
EF>> discussion. But the facts in action are that if such
EF>> things DID occur. they didn't happen in _Nazi_ Germany
EF>> - by definition.
fr>> Amazing.
fr>> You don't happen to believe that the Jewish
fr>>Holocaust didn't either, do you?
EF> For those interested in such things, a quick analysis of
EF> Fred's question might be in order. It is fascinating in
EF> that there is much more here than one might detect at first
EF> glance.
If you're going to persue this you need to archive each and
every message. Fred will run you around a 40 acre field and
end up claiming he never made the original statement.
Either that or he will "prove" that you are Jim Staal.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 16:39:40
EID:e4f0 208e84e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65551c9c
REPLY: 1:116/19 023E3AB2
On Mar 31 08:01 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> Farmers here are told to destroy their surplus crops, rather
AS> than ship it to the starving in Africa...
Do you have any idea WHY such things happen?
What evil group causes this to happen?
Could it possibly have something to do with the effects that
surpluses have upon market prices? Could it possibly have something
to do with farmers being in the business of making money and not
feeding people?
Price supports and market controls didn't spring full grown out
of the head of some Washington bureaucrat. They exist because
farmers lobbyed (and continue to lobby) for them.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 17:14:22
EID:41e1 208e89c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655574ad
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 316a5151
On Apr 08 21:05 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
SA> The alternative newspaper market seems even worse - they seem
SA> to favour "hip" comics, which are almost all extremely badly
SA> drawn. The ONLY one I've seen in local alternatives that's
SA> worth even looking at is "Pfeiffer", incisive in its humour
SA> and elegant in its simplicity. Among the rest, though,
SA> they're badly laid out, unpleasant to the eye, badly worded,
SA> and unnecessarily cluttered.
Methinks we need an alternative to the alternative.
(Why is it that those people who go to the greastest pains
to emphasise their non-conformity all seem the same?)
I've never understood the appeal of the ransom note style
of sloppily done clip art. (Hey! This looks stupid! Lets
get it to the printer's!) Punk rock died in the early
eighties, unfornunately many of it's artifacts seem to
have aquired a life of their own.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 17:26:28
EID:e4f0 208e8b40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65557ec5
REPLY: 1:116/19 0434A982
On Apr 10 05:06 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> I'm so utterly BORED by that guy I can scream! I don't twit
AS> him, but I do hit the "enter" key when I read the first
AS> sentence or two.
Did you know that the Austin American-Statesman has the largest
daily newspaper circulation in Austin?
Pretty fucking amazin' aint it?
(Austin, by the way, is a one newspaper town.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: RELIGION AND STATE (FWD)
|Date: 14 Apr 96 17:33:34
EID:3d68 208e8c20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65563460
On Apr 13 08:25 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
JB> Does TLP post from Florida? (I'm still not very good at
JB> reading node numbers)
Nope. Austin, TX.
I'm eventually going to meet TLP as I plan on making it a point
to attend one of the many Waco-On-My-Mind tank ralleys.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: You-Know-bomber
|Date: 14 Apr 96 18:54:00
EID:4d2d 208e96c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65564a59
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895F0E2D
On Apr 12 21:52 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
EF>> Hey, come to think about it, that UniBomber dude is one
EF>> sincere mother
DC> The funny thing about this is that my local newspaper
DC> spelled the name of the bomber: "Unabomber"! It occurred
DC> both in the title of the article as well as the body.
And there you have it: absolute total and complete proof that
Elliott Finesse is really Fred Rice.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 19:02:07
EID:08dd 208e9840
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655666be
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895F0E25
On Apr 12 21:00 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
DC> In fact, the question of Federal vs. States Rights are
DC> still be hotly contended...
Only by those who don't understand Article VI.
"2. This constitution, and the laws of the United States which
shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or
which shall be made, under the authority of the United States
shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every
state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the constitution
or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 14 Apr 96 19:12:56
EID:ba39 208e9980
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6556780c
On Apr 06 09:20 96, Becke Jones of 1:226/700 wrote:
KM>> NO thank you, I have always hated heavy metal. I don't
KM>> consider it music, just noise.
BJ> To each his own, I suppose...at least you didn't start
BJ> spewing on how metal is "Satan's" music.
It is.
But no one really gives a damn what Satan listens to.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 14 Apr 96 19:18:32
EID:a6b4 208e9a40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655683f7
Another item form "The Province Paper", Vancouver, BC.
Friday March 29, 1996.
"Quito,Ecuador - If you're looking for E.T., blast off to Ecuador.
The newspaper Expreso quotes an "expert" who says that 11 Ecuadoran
women have been impregnated by extraterrestrials. One woman,
identified as Titina, is quoted as saying the aliens are men with
gray skin.
According to the account, the farout fetuses grow to term in just
three months. Then the women undergo a sort of Star Trek caesarean
birth - the babies are beamed up.
What happens to the human-E.T. infants? According to the
newspaper, they're fostered out to a planet called Zeta
Reticulis."
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: "New files"
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:55:08
EID:9978 208eaee0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655855c7
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31703a1f
On Apr 13 23:32 96, Steve Quarrella of 1:124/9005 wrote:
SQ> 2) The Apocrypha are included, but I couldn't tell you
SQ> what the names of the books are. They are abbreviated as
SQ> 151 (I couldn't tell you. There is a mention of David and
SQ> Goliath), 1ma, 2ma, 3ez, 4ez, bar, ju, lao, pm, sir, tob,
SQ> and wis. I can guess at a few of these, but if someone can
SQ> help me out, we'll be halfway there.
151 - probably a psalm. The standard Book of Psalms has 150 psalms.
1ma - First Maccabees
2ma - 2nd Maccabees
3ez - Third book of Ezra. Same as First Chronicals in a Protestant
Bible. Also known as 1st Esdras
4ez - Fourth book of Ezra (2nd Chronicals or 2nd Esdras).
bar - Baruch
ju - Judith
sir - This must be Ecclesiasticus, it's the only deuterocanonical
book that doesn't match one of your abbriviations and is
sometimes known as the Wisdom of Jesus-bar-Sirach.
pm - Prayer of Mannassah?
tob - Tobit
lao - No help. Post the first five verses.
wis - Wisdom of Solomon
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:54:34
EID:49f3 208eb6c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65587cc6
REPLY: 1:280/26 85006023
On Apr 03 00:31 96, Rob Burcham of 1:280/26 wrote:
RB> Lammon is neither theist or nontheist. He's a dickhead.
Orthodox or Reformed?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Paul Churchill
|Sub: Re: Conference
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:59:38
EID:604c 208eb760
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6558886b
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3163e00f
On Apr 04 09:43 96, Paul Churchill of 1:246/15 wrote:
TH>> Is this a religion conference or a chat conference?
PC> Its a freak show!
Someone has a problem with that?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: A fair & just god
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:10:40
EID:31aa 208eb940
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6558a944
REPLY: 1:157/200 8514042e
On Apr 01 17:50 96, Kevin D. Mckenzie of 1:157/200 wrote:
KD>>You need to read the Silmarillion for these tidbits. Gandalf
KD>>was not just a little wizard, he was a demi god.
KDM> You people are worse then Trekkies!
NO FUCKING SHIT!
And when they get to be about 60, they transform into Civil
War buffs.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a C
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:38:30
EID:dcd2 208ebcc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6558eb73
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895B0E3A
On Apr 09 09:23 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
DC> As with all "evidence" of a belief, especially the one in
DC> question, the answer lies in what the believer thinks is
DC> "truth". You have to admit that Hitler had made many
DC> statements to show that he thought he was a "true xian",
DC> contrary to your quotes against it.
The major problem I have with the 'Hitler was a Xian' argument is
that it depends upon takeing Hitler's public statements at face
value.
A dangerous assumption to make when dealing with any person seeking
or holding public office, let alone Adolf Hitler.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 15 Apr 96 00:48:15
EID:aa7b 208f0600
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65599658
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce96
On Apr 13 18:10 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
JH>> If you're reluctant to post it in the echo (can't imagine
JH>> why), you can leave a message for me at the motel at
JH>> 850-7600.
DM> Staying at BWI, are you? Renting a car or taking the MARC
DM> train (I ride it daily, but on a different line).
MARC and (possibly) Amtrak. I selected the motel partly due to it's
closeness to the BWI depot. (You don't happen to know how much a
weekly pass for MARC costs do you?)
I haven't driven a motor vehicle since 1979. Partly because I'm
a tree-hugging greenie and partly because years ago I had to
choose between drinking and driving. I choose to continue drinking.
Now that I'm a tea-totaler, I've never felt the desire to start
driving again.
DM> You wanna have some good Chinese, our local place in Laurel is
DM> one of the best I have hit.
I've never said "no" to a good Chinese.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 15 Apr 96 00:59:01
EID:aa7b 208f0760
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6559d549
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce95
On Apr 13 18:00 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
JH>> I'm going to make it a point to visit one of the Maria's while
JH>> I'm up there to get a real goddam sub. (As for the limpdick
JH>> Southern excuse for a sub called a Poor Boy, the less said the
JH>> better.)
DM> You are not a vegan then, nor do you subsist entirely on
DM> yak butter--great.
No, but my parents (who I will be visiting for 5 days after
leaving DC) are. I'll have to satify my craving for flesh before
I go down there.
I've traveled with vegitarians before. They're a fucking pain in the
ass. They just don't seem to understand that when you are at a truck
stop in the middle of Wyoming that you CAN NOT order a plate of
bean sprouts and fried bananas.
DM> We are about three blocks from Little Italy; the Charthouse is
DM> across the street; there is Chinese on Lombard a block away and
DM> there is always Phillip's for pretty good (if overpriced)
DM> seafood with a great view of the harbor.
I'll be on vacation. You make the decisions.
JH>> I'm open to anything but would prefer something "local"
JH>> (even Polock Johnny's is prefectly OK with me).
DM> Never been there--I just WORK in Baltimore, I don't
DM> gourmandize there as much as I ought.
Polock Johnny's sucks. But one of the things I miss most about
Baltimore are the city markets. No atmosphere. No chairs even.
But many of the stalls would be selling fish, crabs and other items
cleaned and cooked while you wait. Great food at dirt cheap prices.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 15 Apr 96 01:46:04
EID:e4f0 208f0dc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655a2d16
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A59DD6
On Apr 13 04:09 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
JH>> If people like or are even indifferent to the government in
JH>> power, they won't take the risks involved in supporting a
JH>> revolution. It's only when the current government is hated by
JH>> the at large population that a revolution has any chance of
JH>> success.
AS> Case in point; Iraq, with Saddam Hussein. The Iraqis still
AS> love Saddam, for reasons that escape me, even though he led
AS> them in a disastrious war.
I'm inclined to doubt that, but I have no first hand information on
conditions or the political climate over there. Witness the Iraqi
soldiers' eagerness to surrender durring the Gulf War. They may show
up for rallies on We Love Fearless Leader Day because it's in their
own best interest, but they aint ready to actually risk their hides
for the fellow.
Which brings me to another anecdote from the Cuban revolution.
Castro and company knew that many of Batista's troops were
conscripted irregulars. They made it common knowledge that captured
soldiers would not be harmed or held captive, they would be disarmed
and sent home. The end result was a couple of revolutionaries could
pop out of the bushes, yell "BOO!" and everybody would throw down
their weapons and abandon their vehicles.
Again, I don't know anything about current conditions in Iraq. But
prior to the Gulf War, Saddam did place a heavy emphasis on food
production. He's smart enough to know that hungry people are much
harder to manage than people who are being fed.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: NewsWatch magazine
|Date: 15 Apr 96 02:04:58
EID:b00b 208f1080
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655a3cbc
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 316dc042
NewsWatch Magazine - David J Smith
1420 West Wallace
Waxahatchee, TX 75165
There's also a 1-800 which I didn't completely catch.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 15 Apr 96 02:15:38
EID:ab03 208f11e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655a7cb0
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A526B2
On Apr 13 07:00 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
SA>> Such as Jericho not existing at the time Joshua destroyed
SA>> it?
AS> Huh??? I thought Jerico was the oldest city we knew of,
AS> archeologically. Or am I thinking of something else?
I think both Damascus and Jerico claim to be the oldest continually
occupied city in existence. Depends on which Chamber of Commerce you
ask.
This is one of the most consistently bungled examples of
Biblical historical inaccuracy I've seen in this echo.
Jerico existed, but did not have defensible walls when Joshua
(IF he existed) got there. It was the city of Ai (a name which
means "ruins") that was uninhabited when it was conquered.
But I am one who holds to Manfred Barthel's view that Joshua and
the great bulk of the Exodus account are legendary. The Jews were
probably always outsiders who existed on the periphery of Egyptian
society and never slaves in the midst of it. The actual Exodus was
a gradual migration over the course of centuries. As they made the
transition from a society of nomadic shepherds to settled agrarians,
it was necessary to explain the ruins they found in their new
homeland. Add to this a general resentment of Egypt and anything
Egyptian and you have all the makings of a Cecil B DeMille movie.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 15 Apr 96 02:36:28
EID:e4f0 208f1480
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655a866c
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A602EE
On Apr 13 07:01 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> Okay, Marty, I hereby elevate you to the ranks of God Dan
AS> and others. You now have omnipotence.
AS> Now, make me a square circle.
Easy.
A cylinder one diameter in length.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Dig dis shit!
|Date: 15 Apr 96 02:38:48
EID:4655 208f14c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655a8b83
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A5A506
On Apr 13 04:08 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
JH>> The racist nutballs can't agree on which of their numbers
JH>> are True Racist Nutballs and who are merely False Racist
JH>> Nutball Scum.
AS> Now, if we can just lock them in a room and see who comes
AS> out alive...
That sounds too much like natural selection.
You want to produce even more violent nutballs?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Alien
|Date: 15 Apr 96 03:54:47
EID:a62d 208f1ec0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655b3c09
* Original To : All, 1:30873/2
* Original From: John F. Winston, 1:330/201.1@fidonet.org
* Original Area: I_UFO
* Original Date: Apr 03 19:13
* Forwarded on by J.J. Hitt of 1:106/9788.2
From: "John F. Winston"
Originally to: "ufo"
Original Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:02:02 -0800 (PST)
Number 4.
.......................................................................
.......................................................................
WHY DID JESUS CURSE THE FIG TREE?
(More on Jesus Being a Composite)
QUESTION:
Understanding that the stories of the Bible are not to be taken as
historical fact, our question is: What was the point, meaning or reason
for the story where Jesus left the temple after overturning the tables
of the moneychangers, why did he curse the fig tree?
COSMIC AWARENESS:
This Awareness indicates that the stories of the Bible in some cases are
historical in other cases are symbolic. This Awareness indicates that in
the depiction of this action, the story as that which related to the
historical entity... This Awareness wishes to back up and clarify here;
that the entity in the New Testament known as Jesus was a composite of
many different entities. Some of the stories attributed to Jesus are
taken from other religious writings, many from writings of earlier times
and these are historically on record from other writings prior to the
time in which Jesus was alleged to have done these things.
How Jesus Got His Name
In some cases, the stories were in other religious literature, in
several different cultures, under several different names. This
Awareness indicates that in the time of Rome when the New Testament was
being assembled in order to create a Roman religion officially
acceptable to Rome, under Constantine's direction, these stories being
compiled from different sources and attributed to Jesus included some
stories that were true.
This Awareness indicates you will recall that this Awareness had
indicated the original name that was generally agreed upon for the
entity around whom these stories would be officially associated with was
to have been Zeus. This was before certain elements of the group
objected vehemently because Zeus was a Greek god and they did not want
Romans to have a Greek god. It was only after this that they selected
the name Jesus.
The name Jesus was a common name of the time. This Awareness indicates
that it was a name that did not have any gender. It was neither male nor
female. It was neuter. Its name was: "Neither He Nor She." This
Awareness indicates that prior to the selection of this name, there were
different factions in Rome, including the Jains, Gnostics, those of the
Helios group, the Krishna groups, and various groups from India,
including Sikhs and other religious factions from various foreign
countries, and these entities all wanted to have their influence in the
new Roman religion being assembled.
One of the groups included was that which was represented by the Essene
group who were followers of an entity named Jesus of Nazareth; the
entity as one who had, in fact, historically entered into the temple at
one time and who had in fact driven out the moneychangers; this being a
radical action. In this sense the story was historical as part of this
entity's activity.
This Awareness indicates that many of the other parts of the stories in
the New Testament will be found in other religions dating previous to
this times. This Awareness indicates that the action of driving out the
moneychangers was an action of challenging the Jews -- the priests of
the time -- for their desecration of the temples, and this entity
essentially was challenging the entire Hebrew religion up to that time
even though he said: "I come not to change the law, but to fulfill the
law." The entity was, in fact, reinterpreting the Old Testament law, for
the Hebrews of the time, the priests, were expecting the Messiah to
return and they were expecting a Messiah of great power, and the entity
Jesus saw mercy as being more important than great power.
The End. Number 4.
JW Thanks be to the Cosmic Awareness.
John Winston.
--- MailGate 0.25e
* Origin: Ask Your Fido Feed for SNETNEWS (1:330/201.1)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily alien
|Date: 15 Apr 96 03:58:16
EID:a6b4 208f1f40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655b4b14
I call it a lobotomy and a brain castration.
What really bothers me is that I trusted them. I thought I was
going to meet a UFO, and instead, I got these guys. Or, I got them
in addition to the UFO. I can't be sure, even now. I saw both a
black huey and a UFO under hypnosis- changing from one to the other
in mid flight. The hypnotist, Dr. Ira Greenberg, said that I
wasn't confabulating. He thought that human perpetrators did this
to me, from my unprompted testimonial. When he attempted to prompt
me, I corrected him.
I read that many abductees do this under hypnosis. For example, I
told him that I felt something like vice-grips attached to my
nipples. He said, "Who put vice-grips on your breasts?" I said,
"I didn't say that somebody PUT vice-grips on my nipples, I said
it 'FELT LIKE somebody put vice-grips on my nipples.' " He kept
trying to get me to admit that somebody had actually done that, but
since I didn't *know* that somebody had done anything- I just felt
those sensations- I couldn't and wouldn't agree that I knew that
anyone had done it.
>All of this happened to Cathy.... except I dont remember her
>mentioning implants.
She probably has one anyhow. I believe I have one in my right
buttock. They are very tiny- not like the ones shown and written
about in the current MUFON Journal. Tim McVey claims to have one
in HIS buttock. I find myself to be the only one on the internet
*not* seeing the humor of his admission. This is how they find us
and track us. (How are they going to destroy the body if they
can't find it after a bungled mission?) How are they going to
contain our movements without imprisoning us? Actually, suggestion
works pretty good for a while, but you can overcome that. I
think the implants are installed more so they can tell if we are
on target, of find us when they need to. Like a "LOJACK".
I have been told that I have a tiny, passive implant. It is like
a transponder in a way, but it doesn't transmit a signal- it is
more like a UPC. They shine a light in a frequency not visible
to the human eye (but apparently discernable by the sensors on
street lights) on us from a space (a satellite), and my "number"
comes up like a blip on a radar screen. They actually showed me
how they do that once, and told me my "number" which is: 666-69
Bring on the mint jelly, folks!
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Bullshit Science and Faith
|Date: 15 Apr 96 04:47:49
EID:de92 208f25e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655bbb8b
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce94
On Apr 13 18:29 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
SP>> Hi there, I was not aware that the University of Texas was
SP>> the same place as the "Institute of Creation Research".
DM> Only a rank newbie or the tragically comprehension-impaired
DM> would come to such a conclusion.
Hmmm... ICR is famous for bullshit.
UT is famous for "steers and queers".
I can easily see how someone might get the two confused.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 13 Apr 96 03:29:00
EID:d432 208d1ba0
April 15 Monday
PROPER PERSPECTIVE
Read: Hebrews 12:1-3
Let us lay aside every weight,
...looking unto Jesus, the
author and finisher or our
faith. -Heb. 12:1-2
Many a Christian has almost lost his spiritual footing by getting
his eyes focused on other people instead of fixing them on the Lord
Jesus. All human idols have feet of clay, and sooner or later they
may fall and seriously disappoint us.
Until we give our full attention to Jesus, we will stumble and be
a disappointment to ourselves and others, and especially to the
Lord.
John McNeil tells the story of a young eagle he had raised with a
flock of chickens. The out-of-place bird had never learned to fly.
One day McNeil though he would teach this bird how, so he tried
throwing it up in the air. But each time the bird would look down
and fall to the ground. Then he had an idea. Lifting the eaglet's
head, he made it catch a glimpse of the bright sun above. That did
it! The eagle pushed out its wings. Then, lifting its head with a
shriek, it jumped from his hand and began to soar higher and higher
until it was lost to sight in the face of the sun.
Many Christians find themselves in a similar state. If they could
just get their eyes off the things of this earth and off other
people and on the Son, they would soar on the wings of the Spirit to
higher levels of spiritual maturity and blessing.
-Henry G. Bosch
Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory and grace. -Lemmel
TO SOAR SPIRITUALLY,
LOOK TO THE SON.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
---
þ 1st 2.00 #1855 þ God's baud rate is ì.
* Origin: After Five; BBS Elkhart In. 219-262-1370 10 gig (1:2285/100)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:24:00
EID:d3a9 208e5300
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f31b88ff
AS> And some take advantage. Just ask John Wesley Hardin, the REAL fastest
gun
AS> in the west.
You can't ask him, Al. They've lost him.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Not only do we make our own hell... but we also people
it.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 14 Apr 96 10:24:00
EID:64d7 208e5300
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2e7f0b04
SA>worth 1 point. The Australian one is based mostly on education
SA>required for one's stated occupation, which is where I'm screwed. I
SA>don't actually know where I would fit in, and the High Commission
SA>is singularly unhelpful. My fear is that they'd consider a
SA>cartoonist as needing NO education, worth a whopping 0 points.)
Bear wants me to ask you, how many points is a RN (BSN) worth?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Nobody told Alexander of Macedonia queers can't fight.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 13 Apr 96 13:13:01
EID:6d7e 208d69a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 340ce7d4
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Mark Barnett to Fredric Rice <=-
> MB> it all up but as I understande it physics change quite alot? Now
that
> Maybe you will understand this from someone who doesn't know physics and
> doesn't really care to.
> The laws of physics do not change...gravity is not suddenly going to
> disappear and let you float off into space, the speed of light is not
> going to lower itself to 55 mph.
Ever watch Carl "Beelions" Sagan's __Cosmos__ episode filmed in Vinci, Italy??
Most of it is devoted to a portrayal of what life would be like in Vinci
if lightspeed WERE 55 mph. It's hilarious!! :-)
> These laws...which should more accurately be called THEORIES...are added
> to and changed as scientists discover new things and better
> understandings
> of how they work. But the physics themselves do not change.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE O
|Date: 14 Apr 96 00:19:05
EID:661c 208e0260
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3416ebb5
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 651d0db3
PID: FM 2.02
> JH>> I think the subject header is inaccurate.
> JH>> It's looks like they lost their U not the O.
> RB> LOL! You kill me, Hitt.
> The world is bad enough with Boy Scouts, we have no need for
> Boy Scots.
Aww, shuddup and eat yer haggis.........
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Easter
|Date: 14 Apr 96 00:03:02
EID:5d6e 208e0060
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3416ebb2
PID: FM 2.02
> It's Easter, folks. About 2,000 years ago, Jesus came out of his hole,
> and saw his shadow. Six weeks of bad weather followed.
^^^^^^^^^
2000 years
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Lawrence Mccurry
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 14 Apr 96 00:14:03
EID:c5b9 208e01c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3416ebb3
REPLY: 1:2424/104.0 895B3BC1
PID: FM 2.02
> There is only one holy smoke and my brothers and sisters are put into
> your jails everyday for smoking it...LET MY PEOPLE GO....
For the most part, you're preaching to the choir here.
The vast majority of us agree with you on this. I certainly do, anyway.
Virtually ALL of America's so-called "drug problems" are really PROHIBITION
problems, perpetuated by hysteria-mongers like the American Family Association
and the Coalition for a Drug-Free America.
But this is, in fact, the international Religion Debate Echo Forum. The
name, HOLYSMOKE (or HolySmoke), is a relic of the days when it was a local
echo in Styx's locality.
From that humble beginning, it has become FidoNet's third largest Echo,
and is one of a very few present in all FidoNet Zones as well as some of
the alternets (the echotag HOLYSMOKE is reserved to this echo in PODSnet,
for example).
> Tell your local political piggy that you want marijauna legalized Now!
Been doing it for twenty years or more.............
> Or shall we rot in jail for growing a gift God gave to us all.
All power corrupts absolutely. MEMORIA TENE. :-)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Our Daily Bullshit
|Date: 14 Apr 96 00:28:06
EID:8e1b 208e0380
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3416ebb6
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 316cf63a
PID: FM 2.02
> Rob Burcham said "Our Daily Bullshit" to Don Martin,
> adding:
> DM> Mrs. Mickleberry has been dead over a quarter of a century now,
> DM> and thinking about her still pisses me off. She was the first of
a
> DM> long line of well-meaning twits, busily doing good as she defined
> DM> the good to be, without a thought for whether her targets wished
the
> DM> good she had to offer, and without the common decency to pay her
own
> DM> freight on the loads she dumped on others. She was a nice lady and
a
> DM> shithead.
> RB> Good story. Perhaps all thoughtless spammers such as
> RB> Mr Mooth should hereafter be known as Mickleberrys.
> The silly old cow might even be pleased to have her name
> join that of Brice Wellington as a verb.
> "Mooth came through and Mickleberried the Echo again . . ."
A quite small tweak on her name, and you could have Mooth MickleBURYing
the Echo!! :-)
> Or to have a second coming as an "ism", like Paul Shene.
A Moothism..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Self-portrait: Mark Craig
|Date: 14 Apr 96 00:35:07
EID:7f0a 208e0460
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3416ebb8
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895D0E20
PID: FM 2.02
> Just to make sure that everyone has a firm picture of the turkey
> that calls himself "Mark Craig", here's his rendition of him
> that he nicely provided to Preston.
PS>Fourth point: You're still a fucking moron. Feel free to
PS>reply when you
PS>attain sentience, you misguided jackass.
MC>I've wasted enough time with you. Adios!
oooo$$$$$$$$$$$$oooo
oo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o
oo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o o$
o$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o $$
oo$$$$$"$ o$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$o o$$$o
"$$$$$$o$ o$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$o $$$$$$
$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"""$
"$$$""""$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
o$$" $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
o$$$oooo$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ o$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$"$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$""""""""
"""" $$$$ "$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$" o$$$
"$$$o """$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"$$" $$$
$$$o "$$""$$$$$$"""" o$$$
$$$$o o$$$"
"$$$$o $$$$$$$$$$$o o$$$$
"$$$$$oo ""$$$$o$$$$$o o$$$$""
""$$$$$oooo "$$$o$$$$$$o$$"""
""$$$$$$$oo $$$$$$$$$$
""""$$$$$ $$$$$
$$$$ $$$$
$$ $$
$ $
> The blank stare and the foaming tongue says it all...
Note how I adjusted the tongue...... [g]
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: John Passaniti
|Sub: WHAT IS A RELIGION?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 00:17:04
EID:8dcd 208e0220
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3416ebb4
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 3217594d
PID: FM 2.02
> I don't know what faith you are, but I'll assume you are some
> flavor of Christian. If I was to define a Christian like this:
> Christian (n) 1. One who denies the existence of
> the god Zulex, supreme ruler of
> everything. 2. The doctrine that
> says Zulex does not exist.
Now you've done it.
The Three Martins, Two Rices, Quarrella, Ceppa, and myself will now commence
founding the Zulex religion......... !!!
> $ Origin: Christian? God demands you kill me. Write for details!
Excuse me??
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Working Stiffs
|Date: 13 Apr 96 13:05:00
EID:a737 208d68a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 340ce7d3
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 7469c917
PID: FM 2.02
> On (03 Apr 96) Rob Burcham wrote to Sue Armstrong...
> RB> frozen, yet upper management is making huge salaries. I read
> RB> somewhere that Japanese executives are limited to 3 times the
> RB> salary of the lowliest worker in the company. Don't know if
> RB> that's true, but it's not a bad idea.
Actually, I believe the limit is nine times. Still, it's a limit -- and
a good idea. Far too many CEO's are rewarded for actually harming the companies
they work for.
> Shit! I'd settle for THIRTY TIMES the wages of the lowliest
> workers! Even THREE HUNDRED TIMES would be better than what
> WE'VE got!
No shit.
Just one more example of why David Rice was right when he asserted that
unrestrained laissez-faire capitalism is the WORST way to run a nation's
economy.
> ... Reality has limits; stupidity has none. - N. Bonaparte
Cute!!
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Steve Quarrella/Valencia BBS
|Sub: New HolySmoke files!
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:49:00
EID:5b73 208eae20
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 31717349
REPLY: 1:124/9005@fidonet.org 208dba40
-=| On 13 Apr 96 23:18, Steve Quarrella/Valencia BBS said: |=-
SQB> MILKRATE.GIF 134,662 Dave Oosterman and Jim Staal. Now
SQB> taking bets as to their -real- heights.
Glad to see I'm still in on the list! Ain't got access to milk crates no
more...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: evil
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:21:00
EID:10ce aa04e830
MSGID: 1:206/2720 34974376
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A6508C
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> But no matter whether it can be proved or not, all
> men ACT as if they
> have free will. You do yourself. Doubt me? Then
> petition Styx to have
> George reinstated, because his crass, extortionist
> tactics are not the
> product of his own free will. So he is not to blame
> for his actions. Ditto
> murderers. Ditto rapists. Ditto child molestors. No
> one is responsible for
> ANYTHING if there is no free will.
I don't give a damn if George, or murderers, or rapists, or child molestors,
are responsible for anything. What has that got to do with whether George
should be booted off the echo or the others should be locked up? Whatever
the reason, George was a nuisance; his fault or not, that was reason enough
to boot him out. Whatever their reasons, murderers, rapists, and child
molestors are dangers to society, and they must thus be locked up for society's
protection. Who is responsible is beside the point, so the fact (and I maintain
that it is a fact) that nobody is ultimately responsible has no bearing
on punishment. Note also that if nobody is morally responsible for anything,
we can't be morally responsible for punishing people, so why should we refrain
from doing so?
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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PATH: 206/2720 2711 270/101 218/801
|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:25:01
EID:10ce aa04e831
MSGID: 1:206/2720 34974377
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> Just because god knows what we are going to do, does
> not mean he causes us
> to do it. Also how does a person come into existence ?
> Does god wave a
> magic wand ? NO, A man and a woman CHOOSE to put in
> motion the physical
> act of bringing a new person into existence. WHy blame
> god or even give
> him credit? Where the "spirit" of God comes into play
> is when any person
> chooses to do something. For example God may or may
> not have had a part
> in whether those two people united physically, that
> would be their choice
> no matter if god said "go for it" or "don't do it".
> Then when the child
> is born, I would say that god would encourage the two
> people to raise it
> properly but again it is the people who choose whether
> or not to follow
> gods suggestion. and of course it is the way those two
> people choose to
> bring up the child that might determine whether the
> child does good or
> evil. BUT then a person becomes of age to make his own
> decisions and good
> speaks to the person and tells him what is truly good
> to do and THEN
> it is the persons turn to choose to do what god says
> or not to.
> That is my personal idea of how god works.
And it is a common idea. A pity that it makes no sense whatever, but then,
most people aren't particularly rational when it comes to religion. Assume
for the sake of argument that Christianity is true. Then God is omniscient;
when he created the universe that he did, he thus must have known everything
that would result. God is omnipotent; when he created the universe, he
could thus have instead chosen to create any other universe which is logically
possible (such as the Utopia which Mr. Hardy seems to have given up trying
to refute). Thus, everything about our universe is quite clearly God's
fault, because he knew it would happen, and, albeit quite indirectly in
the case of current events, brought it about anyway.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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PATH: 206/2720 2711 270/101 218/801
|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:29:02
EID:10ce aa04e832
MSGID: 1:206/2720 34974378
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> Free will is so valuable because it allows us to
> choose between doing
> what feels good to us physically, and what is the
> RIGHT thing to do or
> spiritually.
"Free will is valuable because it allows choice." Charming. Now why the
hell is choice valuable?
> If you love something set it free.
> If it comes back to you, it is yours.
> If it doesn't, it never was.
I see. Choice is valuable because it's good for people to be free. Forgive
me if I see here something resembling a closed curve in space.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
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PATH: 206/2720 2711 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:50:39
EID:e752 208ebe40
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14633bcf
PID: OLMS 2.5 [Evaluation]
LB> At any rate, I don't think this will make much difference in the
LB> quality or style of my posts, or in what issues catch my attention.
I
LB> hope it will not change anything in regards to who I consider friend.
LB> But I have tried where possible to be honest, even in this echo where
LB> honesty is a landmine for the unwary, and I cannot in good conscience
LB> be pointed to as an example of Christianity, when Christianity has
LB> made it so clear that it does not want my kind within its ranks.
The Christians despise you while the heathens respect you.
If there's any possibility of conversions, it will be from
YOUR example, not theirs. I wonder if 'they' have considered
that? Or maybe saving lost souls isn't all that important.
---
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acute: Opposite of a ugly
-+- OLMS 2.5 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: William Hsu
|Sub: Survey
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:50:40
EID:d0fb 208ebe40
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14633bd0
PID: OLMS 2.5 [Evaluation]
WH> ~SURVEY ON VIEWS OF SIN AND LIFE AFTER DEATH~
WH> Age:43 Gender:M
WH> Denomination/Church group:
Church of Pink Floyd
WH> Do you or your church emphasize on one particular belief or
WH> some particular beliefs? (Yes/No)
Yes
WH> If so, what are they?
Which was better: Pre-Dark Side of the
Moon or post-Dark Side of the Moon?
WH> How would you define sin?
A disgusting concept of Christianity
WH> Do you believe that there is a relationship between sin and suffering?
WH> (Yes/No)
Yes
WH> Please explain why:
If you're preoccupied with sin, there's a good chance
you and everyone around you is suffering.
WH> Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? (Yes/No)
No
WH> If Yes, on what basis do you believe people will be chosen for heaven?
They must have good hair. Bad hair days aren't allowed in heaven
WH> Is it possible for non-Christians to go to Heaven? (Yes/No)
No
WH> Please explain your answer:
No N O spells no
WH> Please describe what you think Heaven and Hell are like:
Hell is when there's absolutely nothing on TV except for
the Old Time Gospel Hour with Jerry Falwell
Heaven is a warm pussy
---
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
-+- OLMS 2.5 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: problems, troubles, woes
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:50:40
EID:ffb7 208ebe40
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14633bd1
PID: OLMS 2.5 [Evaluation]
MH> I'm aware that some people have expressed concern, and I sincerely
MH> appreciate it. However, I was not aware that my behavior had changed.
I
MH> though I was being no more obnoxious and erratic than I had been all
MH> along. :)
I thought your obnoxiousness had remained fairly consistent
(except for that brief time after you got the new computer
and you seemed as happy as a baby in a topless bar).
---
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Apparent: A large, old, bossy person who tortures youths
-+- OLMS 2.5 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Rob's various replies
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:50:40
EID:f145 208ebe40
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14633bd2
PID: OLMS 2.5 [Evaluation]
MH> Miracles, by definition, are outside the scope of science. Many
MH> miracles have been reported, but because they cannot be investigated
MH> scientifically, scientists ignore them. It is a self-fulfilling
MH> prophecy.
MH>
MH> Let's say the guy's foot really had been broken and really did heal
up
MH> overnight, and the x-rays plus testimony from reputable physicians
--
MH> several of them -- corrborated the claim. As a scientist, you could
not
MH> duplicate the event. So would you concede that a miracle occurred?
I
MH> suspect you'd say what you just said -- "no miracle has been
MH> documented." Not because it didn't happen, but because it falls outside
MH> the realm which you can probe with scientifc tools.
The key word in this miracle thing is 'interpretation'.
If a broken bone suddenly heals or a cancer is suddenly
cured, that spells 'miracle' to a believer (and further
evidence of God). But is that the only explanation for
such occurrences? The believer has a ready-made answer
for any unexplained event. A miracle isn't necessarily
evidence of supernatural intervention but the believer
is all too eager to jump to that conclusion.
On a related note: I read an article a couple of years
ago about the miracles at Lourdes. An unbiased investigation
was done and it was discovered the rate of miracles at
Lourdes was slightly LESS than the rate of miraculous
recoveries at hospitals. The rigors of the journey may
have weakened already fragile individuals. People DO
unexpectedly recover from injury or illness. Theists
attribute those recoveries to God while nontheists
recognize other possibilities (such as misdiagnosis or
natural biological processes). The key word is interpretation.
---
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Bachelor: One who's footloose and fiancee free
-+- OLMS 2.5 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ALLEGORY 2/2
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:50:41
EID:7f8c 208ebe40
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14633bd3
PID: OLMS 2.5 [Evaluation]
LB> I regret that those same politicans who have indentified themselves
with
LB> this "christian agenda," have also been a voice raised against this
society
LB> willingness to care for young mothers, a voice against immigrants, a
voice
LB> against health care for the poor and even a voice against health care
for
LB> children. I cringe when I see my Christ used this way and I want to
scream
LB> to the public that this is not now, and never has been, an expression
of th
LB> Christ I know, the Christ I serve and the Christ I worship.
LB> --Bishop Spong
Hey, maybe I better start reading this Spong guy too. It
sounds like he is hitting the nail on the headeth.
---
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
-+- OLMS 2.5 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:50:41
EID:01b6 208ebe40
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14633bd4
PID: OLMS 2.5 [Evaluation]
EF> I'll tell you why. Because, according to your Bible, Moses was a genocidal
EF> maniac, just like Hitler. Do I have to bring up Numbers 31 again? He
calls
EF> for the slaughter of 60,000+ captive women and children - while giving
EF> the virgin girls - 32,000 of 'em - to his soldiers.
Do you suppose a few millenia from now, Hitler will be seen
as a great hero? A dynamic statesman and military genius?
Time has a way of distorting truth.
---
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acute: Opposite of a ugly
-+- OLMS 2.5 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 14 Apr 96 23:50:41
EID:3133 208ebe40
TID: FMail/386 1.03g/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14633bd5
PID: OLMS 2.5 [Evaluation]
AS> SA> Agreed. Processed. All-time exclusion count now totals 5 individuals.
AS>
AS> And I'll try to watch the spelling. I don't want to be the sixth.
There would be ONE benefit if you were the sixth: The time
required to download a mail packet would be cut in half.
...Nah, still wouldn't wanna lose ya.
---
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
-+- OLMS 2.5 UNREG
---
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/76 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 09 Apr 96 19:19:00
EID:c67d 20899a60
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d943
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
AS> RB> Sorry Al, I've gotta ask it: Would a loving god allow such
AS> RB> a thing? An indifferent nature would, but a loving god?
AS>
AS> Read about them. The adults are not overwhelmed. They seem extremely
happy
AS> and outgoing (the twins). Yes, they will have extreme angst when they
are
AS> teenagers....well, who DOESN'T have extreme angst when they're teenagers.
Yeah, a big zit on your nose doesn't even compare to having two heads.
AS> Their predecessor, two Siamese males similalry cojoined, worked at
Barnum
AS> and Bailey for a while, and then married two seperate ladies and worked
on
AS> a farm and had dozens of children. They seem perfectly healthy. Are
they
AS> REALLY so unlucky? I suspect, only if others make them feel like a
freak.
AS> Again, it is up to us.
Are they really so unlucky? Damn right they are! Would you trade places
with them for any amount of money? Even discounting society's treatment
of them, they were dealt a rotten hand. If we are God's children and God
is loving, why in the hell does he allow such a thing?
AS> You cannot have regular laws of inheritance and genetics...and allow
for
AS> mutation to better the species...without allowing the possibility of
that
AS> mutation also occasionally causing bad results.
You can if you're God. If God's design for earth's inhabitants is indistinguishable
from nature; what good is God?
An omnipotent 'loving' god could design an earth that had no Siamese twins,
no childhood leukemia, no muscular distrophy. But instead, his design is
exactly the same as an indifferent, conscienceless nature.
AS> Two of my sons are
AS> autistic, and in many ways they are worse off then those two little
girls.
AS> They are bright and talkative and loved, whereas an autistic can be
bright
AS> and loved, and yet still have trouble communicating the love and
AS> everything that is needed.
You have more of a personal reason than most to consider my argument above
(obviously, you've rejected it). I'm always amazed at those who have reason
to be angry at God, praising him the most. I see no evidence of a loving
God, and I only have one head. (no comments involving genitalia, please)
AS> Don't be afraid to ask me the hard questions, BTW. That's what I'm
here
Just so you don't begin offering to 'help' me.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Apparent: A large, old, bossy person who tortures youths
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: What is a religion?
|Date: 09 Apr 96 23:00:00
EID:cf81 2089b800
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d954
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
PS> RB> Atheists also don't believe the rings of Saturn are made of
PS> RB> brightly colored rhesus monkeys. Is this too, an article of
PS> RB> faith?
PS>
PS> Technically speaking, it is, but only because there's always the chance,
PS> no matter how small, that it could be and we've all been mistaken every
PS> time we've observed the rings.
I normally think of faith as a positive assertion (a belief in something
without the necessity of evidence). When a theist claims that atheists
have faith for NOT believing in God, that doesn't really fit the definition.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Alimony: The screwing you get for the screwing you got
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 09 Apr 96 23:12:00
EID:2f00 2089b980
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d965
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MB> RB>BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Holysmoke, the devil's pit!
MB>
MB> You realy should see someone about that.
Why, haven't you ever seen a wicked, evil, possessed by Satan laugh before?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Boor: A person who has nothing to say and says it
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Posting
|Date: 09 Apr 96 23:15:00
EID:d0d0 2089b9e0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d976
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> RB> Many Christians have accepted evolution, recognizing that the evidence
MH> RB> is too overwhelming to dismiss. Doing so, relegates a major portion
o
MH> RB> their religion to the realm of allegory, but they find that preferable
MH> RB> to sticking their heads in the sand and muttering "Is Not!"
MH>
MH> This statement contains so many assumptions and false conclusions,
I'm
MH> not sure where to start in on it.
Why would Christians accept evolution (something not in harmony with the
bible) if the evidence wasn't convincing?
MH> First of all, the evidence for evolution is NOT especially
MH> overwhelming.
It is for an overwhelming number of scientists in the field. (I realize
that majority opinion does not necessarily equate to 'truth'. Just look
at how wrong all those theists are.)
MH> There is no doubt that organisms can change, within
MH> limits, to adapt to changing conditions. No one denies that. The
MH> evidence that all life on Earth arose from a single common
MH> ancestor, however, is sketchy at best. If you know of something which
MH> clinches the case, please show me.
I'm not certain there is a 'case clincher'. The passage of 3 1/2 billion
years makes certainty uncertain. But evolution deals very well with the
progress of life over the last few hundred million years.
MH> Second, yes, many Christians do accept evolution. I think that's not
MH> because they've studied the issue closely and found evolution
MH> well-supported, but because they have NOT studied the issue closely.
It seems likely that Christians who have accepted evolution have studied
the issue very closely. And I respect their integrity for saying "Yes,
this appears to be factual even though it clashes with the bible."
I've never doubted the veracity of evolution. Fundies never even consider
it. Christians who have accepted evolution have probably given the matter
more scrutiny than either of us.
MH> Third, acceptance of evolution does NOT relegate "a major portion"
of
MH> Christianity to the realm of allegory. It relegates exactly two
MH> chapters of the Bible to that realm, Genesis 1 and 2.
Genesis 1 and 2 have to do with origins and origins are usually pivotal
to the 'rest of the story'.
MH> Christians who
MH> accept evolution need only hold that the Bible tells us who created
MH> us and why, while science tells us how and how long it took.
Being a newspaper man, you should know that the bible 'used' to tell us
how, what, when, where and why. Now, those five gospels have been reduced
to one.
MH> Theologically, the result is the same.
If selectively believing what the bible says is comfortable to your theology.
MH> Finally, to deny evolution after years of studying arguments on both
MH> sides of the matter is not to stick one's head in the sand and yell
"is
MH> not." Get past your arrogance and read some good critiques of
MH> evolutionary theory, or else it is you who is refusing to engage the
MH> discussion.
I'm fairly familiar with the pseudo-science of anti- evolutionists. Instead
of considering the evidence and going where it takes them, they consider
the evidence and attempt to dispel it's logical conclusions.
MH> I would recommend Philip Johnson's "Darwin On Trial."
Ok. I'm due for a library trip and since Al has already 'outed' me (I confessed
to not reading much of the opposition) I'll look for it. And I'll have
a recommendation for you when I get back.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: better than
|Date: 10 Apr 96 0:18:00
EID:87bb 208a0240
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d987
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> RB> Ok, I think I'll require that everyone worship me or they'll suffer
MH> RB> for eternity...oh wait, that's been done.
MH>
MH> How about you create people who despise you and spit on your love for
MH> them, yet you forgive them anyway if they will only accept it?
I don't despise and spit on God any more than I despise
and spit on Superman. They're both fictional characters
and it's not too healthy to get THAT worked up about
fictional characters.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Bachelor: One who's footloose and fiancee free
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 10 Apr 96 0:23:00
EID:8fee 208a02e0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d998
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> RB> Jesus will damn you just as you are,
MH> RB> Jesus will damn you from afar,
MH> RB> Jesus will damn you in your car;
MH> RB> Just as you are, you're damned. -Burchyan
MH>
MH> Only if you insist on being so. Why do the heathen wish to blame
MH> someone else for their own choices?
-I- don't choose to be damned. So, if I don't choose it, who does?
I don't choose to be damned (that sounds a little unpleasant) and I don't
choose to be saved (that sounds like nonsense). So, what are the other alternatives?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 10 Apr 96 0:29:00
EID:fe22 208a03a0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d9a9
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> RB> When a naturalist is unable to back up his claim by
MH> RB> scientific means, it isn't called 'religion'. It's
MH> RB> called 'I don't know'. Theists should try it sometime.
MH>
MH> However, the dogmatic insistence that all reality MUST be natural,
that
MH> the supernatural cannot exist, IS a religious assumption. It is the
MH> rejection of traditional religion, but that is itself an unevidenced
MH> belief to which the Materialist must hold by faith.
It continues to puzzle me how a person who has no beliefs in the supernatural
is said to be 'religious'. A religious atheist is tantamount to a meat-eating
vegetarian.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: unique
|Date: 10 Apr 96 17:21:00
EID:da1a 208a8aa0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d9ba
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> No. If it were arrived at by deception, delusion or misinformation,
it
MH> would almost certainly be fairly common. Remember, we're not talking
MH> about a case where someone says to you today "This guy who lived in
MH> France about 500 years ago, he died and came back to life." We're
MH> talking about Jesus's own closest friends attesting to it, and being
MH> willing to suffer for attesting to it, for no apparent material gain.
First, let's make several assumptions that much of the biblical account
of Jesus' life is accurate (including the part about his followers believing
he rose from the dead). This is where you and I part company. There are
simply too many variables in human behavior, interpretations and reliability
to accept this supposed supernatural event as (pardon the expression) gospel.
Unless of course, you have a personal stake in the 'truth' of the event.
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: abortion
|Date: 10 Apr 96 17:42:00
EID:9977 208a8d40
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d9cb
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> RB> Ah, but there's the rub. Abortion is a matter of timing. The
window
MH> RB> of choice is only open a relatively short time.
MH>
MH> But what, indeed is the difference? It's a race against time? "Kill
it
MH> quick, before it becomes a person?" Sickening.
Yes, I think you've got it (except for the sickening part - that's when
we force girls and women to have babies whether they want them or not, or
are capable of caring for them or not).
MH> There is no qualitative difference between a fetus at one week and
a
MH> fetus at eight months. The only differences are quantitative -- a
MH> matter of degree.
A fetus at 8 months is viable outside the womb. It looks very much like
a little (albeit helpless) person. It's organs are formed and it's brain
is online. A fetus at one week looks nothing like a person. It hasn't
even reached the tadpole stage. It has no organs and no brain. The differences
are both quantitative and qualitative.
If a hospital nursery is on fire and inside the nursery is a premature baby
(born 1 month early) and also a 1 week old embryo in a test tube, which
do you save? I only submit this question to show that the difference is
definitely qualitative.
BTW, do the parents of the week old embryo stand outside the nursery admiring
their 'infant'? "Oh, he's so cute. He's got his father's chin."
MH> RB> I had a 'once functioning' brain. The fetus never acquired a
MH> RB> functioning brain.
MH>
MH> Which is a really weird way to justify abortion. The fetus has an
MH> entire lifetime ahead, which you have no qualms about stealing. The
MH> fetus never acquired a functioning brain only because you rip it out
of
MH> the womb before it has a chance.
Well, religious indoctrination rips out functioning brains AFTER birth (sorry,
couldn't resist). You think a week old embryo has more rights than a 20
year old woman. Simply because two reproductive cells have met, the woman
now has an 18 year obligation.
MH> Because the fetus lacks cognition only because that is a normal stage
MH> of human development, soon to be outgrown. Where is the justification
MH> for robbing the fetus forever of its one and only chance at life,
MH> UNLESS you're influenced by selfishness and emotionalism?
Are you vehemently opposed to coitus interuptus? That's robbing a potential
fetus of it's one and only chance at life. And those little wiggly spermatoza
are every bit as cognizant as a week old embryo. That is to say, not at
all.
Is it selfish to delay having children until you are ready? Until you actually
want them and have the financial and emotional capacity to care for them?
It seems the child would benefit if those criteria are met.
(This goes on some more but we've agreed to drop this thread on several
occasions - due to painful head injuries from encountering that brick wall.
Perhaps we should drop it once again.)
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Apparent: A large, old, bossy person who tortures youths
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: What is a religion?
|Date: 10 Apr 96 18:31:00
EID:09c8 208a93e0
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d9dc
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
MH> RB> Atheists also don't believe the rings of Saturn are made of
MH> RB> brightly colored rhesus monkeys. Is this too, an article of
MH> RB> faith?
MH>
MH> You mean they're not??
MH>
MH> (There's a point in there, Rob ... see if you can find it.)
Uh, you went to the Liberty University School of Astronomy?
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Alimony: The screwing you get for the screwing you got
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 10 Apr 96 18:35:00
EID:b13c 208a9460
MSGID: 1:280/26 8e17d9ed
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
JB> Your place or mine? If mine, I hope you like dogs...and cats.
Better make it mine. I 'like' dogs and cats but I prefer women. You kinky
thing you. ;>
---
* NFX v1.3 [000] Apparent: A large, old, bossy person who tortures youths
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: #holysmoke still going strong!
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:08:00
EID:7480 208ea900
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3494daff
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 338890c2
PID: FM 2.02
>>> Typical sign-in times are any time after 6:00p.m.
>>> Pacific, 8:00p.m. Central,
>> AHEM!!
>>> and 10:00p.m. Eastern. If you're late, don't worry! The
>>> most "empty" of us are on until morning!
> What? Have I fucked up? }:-}
Pike's Peak. Annapurna. McKinley. K2. Aetna. Kilimanjaro. Mauna Loa.
There's a timezone in the continental US named after such objects. And you
left it out.
Never mind that one-third of all HolySmokers live in the same..... ;-)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Charter Member: Mikey Hardly's Twit Filter! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a C
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:48:00
EID:20e2 208d9600
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E19
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-12-96 05:20, Elliott Finesse got back to Dan Ceppa
> to admit that Hitler had made many statements to show that he thought
> he was a "true xian", contrary to your quotes against it.
EF> Yes, no question he made statements to that effect (claimed to be a
EF> Catholic, which amounts to the same thing).
EF> ordered the "cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the
EF> Bible in Germany"? Banished all "scribes, pastors, chaplains or
EF> priests" from the Reich Church? Cleared away "all crucifixes, Bibles,
EF> and pictures of saints" from the altars; removed all Christian Crosses
EF> from all "churches, cathedrals, and chapels."
A few questions on the above, as I have not read the book you are
quoting.
First, has the above been varified and corroberated via
independent sources?
Second, you mention "all churches". Is it all churches or is it
from all except the (old/new) chosen church?
Next, is it possible that the removal of the bible is the removal
of the only the versions that don't coincide with the what will be
the new established (xian) religion?
Finally, the swastika is itself a form of cross. The ironic
part of it is that it is a sun, n.g. life sign!
> It all comes down to what particular brand of xianity is the "one
> true brand".
EF> Well, if the one true brand turned out to be "sans Bible" that _would_
EF> be a kick in the head.
That's true! But it may be that it was going to be a particular
version or newly written version that followed more is goose step
to the view of Germany that Hitler had.
... Facts are stubborn little bastards, be careful what you do with 'em
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 13 Apr 96 19:01:00
EID:2727 208d9820
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E1A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 22:23, Robert Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
RJ> ... "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
DC> However, I do think it means: "If you got them by the balls,
DC> their hearts and minds will follow".
RJ> That's the long and the short of it, mistah.
ROLTF!
I trust you did recognize the pun you through in there...
... The poor may inherit the earth, but the rich will inherit the church
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DIVINE RETRIBUTION
|Date: 13 Apr 96 19:12:00
EID:9069 208d9980
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E1B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 03:04, Al Schroeder got back to Mark Craig
MC> God is not mocked Trinity! Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart tried to make
a
MC> fool out of God, and look what happened to them.
AS> major Christian denominations' ideas of God...or is Trinity a
AS> code-name for an agent? Maybe all your foolishness is code for secret
Nope, the code name for the Atomic Test site, if I remember right..
AS> think you could draw the obvious conclusion concerning those who
AS> preach HATE in His name. That is, of course, the greatest mockery of
AS> all.
Preaching hatred doesn't require anyone's name to do it, but it
does add to the impact on the rubes...
... God told me it's none of your business. - Jimmy Swaggart.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DROOL GAME
|Date: 13 Apr 96 19:19:00
EID:e367 208d9a60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E1C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 00:07, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
MH> I said at the outset, the target was chosen at random. No concious
MH> decision involved at all.
AS> You put names on a dartboard and let fly?
DC> You forgot, Al, Mikey is playing _goalie_ for that team... You
AS> Lately I feel like the guy in the audience being hit by the puck...
I told you no to sit in the end zone that Mikey's defending... The
plexiglass is just not strong enough to stand up to the pounding
that the slapshots are having on him. Hell, the goal scorer
quit that last time a shot went though Mikey's glove and the
net and took out the whole end of the rink...
We're waiting now for the ice to re-freeze and continue the game!
... Jesus Saves, Gretzki scores on the rebound!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 13 Apr 96 19:29:00
EID:2284 208d9ba0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 00:57, Steve Wallis got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> EF> We want your justification for god ordering the slaughter of
DC> innocent
DC> EF> children and women captives. You keep ducking this point. I
Get your quoter/editor settings fixed
DC> IOW, it's ok because your murdering god says its ok.
SW> It was a time of war Dan. Things happen.
Things happen that a god could prevent, Steve. Plain and simple.
It's your god and he gave you them the commandment _Thou Shat Not
Kill_. Now, where is the exception written, "Unless I tell you
to murder innocent people in my name"?
SW> You'll get all your answers one day Dan, you'll get to meet the main
SW> Man God Himself-but..what side of the gate are you gonna be on?
The one that slams the gate in your face as you attempt to enter.
... The proctologist called.... your head is ready.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Gods in your pockets?
|Date: 13 Apr 96 19:33:00
EID:b73b 208d9c20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 08:56, Sue Armstrong got back to Katherine Wintersnight
KW> Your pencils and ruler, my pen, and Dan's socks. Humm,
KW> maybe their god is about the create another creation, and is raiding
SA> I suppose the pencils and ruler were for the drafting board .. I
SA> wonder whose paper they stole?
They used the rag content for the parchment, of course!
KW> for construction materials. I suppose the socks are to add the spark
KW> of life.
SA> That depends - were Dan's socks clean or dirty when they vanished?
Hard to say... I'm not sure if they get eaten by the washer or the
drier, so it's a toss up.
... Do I know the bible??? Hell, I've proof edited the translation!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GRADUATE, MHS OF A
|Date: 13 Apr 96 19:47:00
EID:c58a 208d9de0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 04:09, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
KD>How could a boat of that size have been seaworthy?
JG> The ark is about the size of the Titanic.
AS> (pounding floor) He couldn't have said the Queen Mary, he HAD to say
AS> the Titanic, didn't he? ROFL!!
Thanks for reposting that tidbit... As you may have noticed, I
do tend to go for the absurd and stomp on it's neck rather tenderly,
or at least till the neck is very tender. :)
... He who opens a school door, closes a prison - Victor Hugo
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Mind Control
|Date: 13 Apr 96 19:58:00
EID:92b4 208d9f40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 00:12, The Raven got back to Larry Jansen
LJ> Did you ever notice how the Jews try make themselves look like victims?
TR> Gee... six million of them didn't make it out of World War II...
LJ> Why don't we ever hear about the "real" holocaust: where 65 million
LJ> Chinese were murdered by Mao, or the 40 million Russians who were
TR> Or about the 13 million American Indians slaughtered by the
It's a matter of counting, Jack. Larry counts 1, 2, many.
Unfortunately, millions suffer and die, and 13 is more than 6
and 40 is more than 13 and 65 is more than 40. Therefore, the
65 million is tragic and the 6 million isn't.
One of these days he'll learn to count to a single digit and
understand that each person is is important.
... Nie wieder Faschismus! (in English: Fascism, never again) ...
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: The Raven
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 13 Apr 96 20:08:00
EID:e222 208da100
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 00:03, The Raven got back to Al Schroeder
TR> No. George is liable for petty theft, extortion, transmission of
TR> threats
AS> opinion is wrong and Styx cannot be held responsible...than I urge a
AS> boycott on George.
TR> The plonking sound you hear is his ass hitting the bottom of my
TR> twit filter.
He made it to the top of mine. Though I think he did not do what
he said he was going to do, his methods are very far from ethical
and moral.
He may be being given a short shrift on the boards that he's
accessing, but he's carried things quite too far with this
lastest escapade.
If that's his modus operendi on those boards, I can understand
why he no longer can access them.
Jokes and poking fun are one thing, but I have never been into
"practical jokes", which to me are the epitome of an oxymoron.
... Tagline Deleted: Nothing funny about this shit.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 13 Apr 96 20:12:00
EID:4400 208da180
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 13:05, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> wiggle out of the corners you've painted yourself into if your ideas
JB> weren't just plain sickening.
DC> Perhaps you should bake him a chocolate cake and make up with
SA> I'll throw in a "cigarette" for the make-up pool.
I'll even donate a case of Lucky Beer, just because!
... "Data, that is quite enough background!"--Piccard
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OUR DAILY BREAD
|Date: 13 Apr 96 20:18:00
EID:f981 208da240
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 21:29, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> The Classical Greeks were not influenced by the Classical Greeks.
MH> Huh?
JB> I wanted so much to reply to that...but could do nothing but stare at
JB> it with my mouth open.
Can I sit back here and throw a gape into it? If so, do you like
red or white? And, should they be seedless?
I wounder if we pressed it hard enough and waited that we could
get a bit of whine? A St Emilion, '72 would work for me!
... Too many puns, not enough time to ex spleen them...
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Pinnacle of Life
|Date: 14 Apr 96 08:48:00
EID:a1c6 208e4600
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 00:18, The Raven got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> line, there may even be some isolated enclaves, but the life
DC> requires the interdependence of all of that life in the system(s).
TR> Try and follow my argument here, Dan, and lets get away from all
TR> of this Elton John Circle of Life Love Animals Don't Eat Them bullshit,
Where did I mention that, John?
TR> We are the highest lifeform on the planet. Period. We are, at
By your definition of "highest", Hitler is the greatest human being
to ever exist.
TR> killed by the simplest of lifeforms? Yes. But I dare you to name one
TR> other organism on the planet which can affect the planet as a whole
as
TR> much (for good or ill) as we can. You can't. Period.
Which makes us a virus on this planet.
TR> I suggest you get some fresh air and respond only after you pull the
TR> pine tree out of your ass.
Just as soon as I use my chain saw to cut off the one growing so
fertilely out of yours. Yes, John, I do own a chain saw and use
it quit often on those trees you claim I hug. They make great
firewood.
... +Origin: MANANA NETWORK: PEEPLES FOR HAYZEAUS...AFTER SIESTA.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Return of property
|Date: 14 Apr 96 17:30:00
EID:ca9d 208e8bc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 14:23, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> I must not write into this echo after today, for 90 days, so that I
DC> Can I borrow the same on the same requirements on your return?
DC> Thanks in advance!
SA> The thing that gets me is, I asked to borrow this book a year ago.
He's a slower reader than my 10 yo.
SA> again received no acknowledgement to my request. And I have had
SA> absolutely nothing to do with whatever echo this bickering started
The deal over the book has gotten out of hand. At first, I thought
that it was a joke. My above quote was meant as a dig at John.
However, George has taken it much too far.
SA> this whole thing is inconveniencing to me as well as John, even
SA> though I haven't done anything whatsoever to offend George that I am
George has lost all respect of virtually everyone on this echo, and,
it seems, just about every echo he frequents. I'm sorry I got
involved in what I originally thought was a joke. It has gone
on long enough and George had better make good on his return of
John's book.
... Me.. a skeptic? I trust you have evidence.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 14 Apr 96 17:37:00
EID:be00 208e8ca0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 00:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> What was your first clue? And, are you sure it's temporarary? ;)
AS> Seeing how I'm STUPID enough to get mixed up in this Lynda/Mike
AS> thing, probably not. Oy vey.
Funny, you don't look Jewish! And, from what I've seen, you have had
your hands full playing intermediary. Such a thankless job, which
is why I think twit filters are so stupid.
AS> Did you ever see the Dr. Phibes movies with Vincent Price? I thought
DC> Answered this in another post... Just wanted to make the above
DC> comment!
AS> Yeah, yeah, rub it in...
As was pointed out to me in another echo, I just can't ignore a
straightline when I see one!
... "The Good, The bad, and the guy with the pun.": Various Holy Smokers
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jesus Christ
|Sub: Warning!
|Date: 13 Apr 96 21:19:00
EID:2878 208daa60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-12-96 20:18, Jesus Christ got back to Mike Archer
-> Re: Warning!
JC> you tell em sparky; by the way do you have any bandaids for the holes
JC> in my hands? i am having the hardest time beating off...
That's because you made those holes much too large... Use a
very small Brad the next time.
... Jerusalem ball breakers = Teases of Nazareth
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: WARTS
|Date: 13 Apr 96 21:21:00
EID:642a 208daaa0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89600E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-12-96 19:44, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Al Schroeder
AS> Maybe Lorena Bobbitt thought it was a reasonably big wart...
KW> I dunno, Al, I never heard of a wart with a penis hanging off it
KW> before. -!-
You must not be getting any messages from Grigor-Scott... You're
very lucky!
... "God doesn't follow his own rules, he deserves no respect" Kelsey
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Leland Tsao
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 14 Apr 96 04:06:00
EID:7883 208e20c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A5E986
AS> another post, are legally actionable. Not only George could be sued,
AS> but possibly the sysop of his BBS, and possibly the moderator of this
AS> echo, Styx.
TR> No. George is liable for petty theft, extortion, transmission
of threats
TR> over phone lines, and destruction of private property (Class B). In
Florida,
TR> that's a year in jail plus fines. The others (his sysop and Styx) aren't
TR> liable for anything.
Glad to hear it, Jack. Both the possible fines he could face, and the
fact that neither the sysop of the BBS nor Styx can be held responsible.
AS> If Styx does not want to do this...and I very sincerely hope the legal
AS> opinion is wrong and Styx cannot be held responsible...than I urge a
AS> boycott on George.
TR> The plonking sound you hear is his ass hitting the bottom of my
twit
TR> filter.
Luckily it's not necessary, since Styx reacted quickly and efficiently.
The other night (Saturday the 13th) Lynda and I were talking in
#holysmoke on IRC, when he showed up. I actually got a chance to tell him
what I thought of him...one sentence of it anyway...before Lynda "booted"
him off. I should be ashamed of how good it made me feel. But I'm really
not...
... I plan to live forever, or die trying.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BAD MOUTH
|Date: 14 Apr 96 06:09:00
EID:3389 208e3120
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A5F390
AS> But wouldn't it be more productive (and more fun) to prove where your
AS> or Mack's reasoning is NOT circular?
MB> I don't have to "prove" anything. Mack's reasoning is no more
MB> circular than the fundamentalists' reasoning. Mack believes there
MB> is a now-extinct form of communication called "Q," Mikey and the
MB> fundies believe there is a no-extince form of communication called
MB> "miracles."
Of course you don't HAVE to prove anything, but it IS pretty much a debate
echo.
MB> Now YOU tell ME which is more likely: a perfectly human construct
MB> that is mundane in character, or a perfectly impossible construct
MB> that is supernatural in character.
"Impossible"? Putting the cart before the horse, aren't you? Whether it
is
impossible for not...i.e., unable to happen in reality...is what this is
about, is it not? If you are asking whether which is more likely; a
mundane hypothesis of events that does not include the supernatural, and
a
supernatural hypothesis...obviously it would depend on what the
explanation WAS in both cases, would it not? I think, quite frankly, to
accept such things as collective hallucination, hypnotism of unconsenting
spectators, widespread instantaneous conspiracy in lying by persons not
otherwise knows as liars--are all events so improbable that people would
not evoke them for any other explanation...save to debunk a miracle. And
by the same token, one must not accept casual miracles, unless it serves
some greater purpose. Obviously, if Nature is all there is, then every
supernatural event reported is untrue. But that presupposes that you know
everything in reality, else you cannot say that with assurance. Typing on
keys resulting in words being sent in the air to another person that
they've never seen face to face...that would be considered a miracle, or
witchcraft, a mere five hundred or so years ago. Your view of reality may
be just as limited as the average person five hundred years ago.
MB> Go ahead. I dare you to admit that you are just as fundy as he
MB> is, in your own way. I choose reality. So sue me.
What dare? I have freely admitted, defended, and otherwise argued for the
literal Resurrection of Jesus Christ as a physical event no less
historical than the assasination of Caesar, and better buttressed by
accounts of eyewitnesses and those who talked with eyewitnesses, than the
assasination of Caesar. I quite frankly view most of the alternatives
given to me much as I regard the Flat Earthers demand that NASA
"conspired" to "fake" the moon landing, etc...save that I understand and
suympathize with the skeptics for the Resurrection a little more. (And
notice, most of the explanations given to us over the years do involve a
conspiracy of one type or another). If you choose to call me "fundy" over
this, that is your privilege. It certainly has happened before on this
forum. That is not to say I regard as unChristian those who hold opposing
views, such as Schweitzer or Spong, who yet called themselves Christian.
I don't believe in casual, erratic, miracles though. There is a strong
regularity in Nature, a passion for order and consistency that argues that
if an Intelligence is behind it, it would not casually overturn such. Nor
would sanity be easy to hold onto where miracles were casual. But...
I'm going to make an analogy to a movie. It would be intolerable to have
a movie in which the hero got into a desperate scrape, and the movie was
totally realistic, when in the last five minutes the hero was saved by a
UFO landing and taking him aboard and marrying the hero to Dejah Thoris,
princess of Barsoom. If PULP FICTION ended with a sudden UFO landing, or
ORDINARY PEOPLE. for instance. Yet it is perfectly permissable to bring
in
an extraordinary event if that is the whole point of the movie...such as
in CLOSE ENCOUNTERS or ET.
In the same way, I don't credit casual miracles; the Creator would not
casually set aside His laws to give a king a Golden Touch, or a young boy
Seven League boots. But I can believe in a miracle if that is what the
universal story is about; if throughout nature, throughout the world of
thought, the topics of Life, Death, and the Afterlife or Resurrection are
uppermost on our minds. Everywhere I look, from the rebirth of the world
in Spring to the anguish we feel about death, the thought of death and
possible life beyond dominates and defines us. That is what religion is
often about, and a misunderstanding on that score has often caused great
wars and more death. It's not a casual thing to most of us. So if a
miracle is claimed to be bound up with that theme of life, death, and
Rebrith or Resurrection...if it is claimed to be absolutely indispensible
to the Creator, the central event of Man's existence....to a Christian
theologian, the two most important things in the world went from Garden
to
Garden....from the Garden of Eden to the Garden of Gethsemene. To a
Christian the Resurrection is central to Existence, and the key to future
life, and was literally the most important event ever. So there is an
intrinsic probability stronger than the usual tales of wonder.
"Almost the whole of Christian theology could perhaps be deduced from
the two facts (a) That men make coarse jokes and (b) That they feel the
dead to be uncanny. The coarse joke proclaims that we have here an animal
that finds its own animality either objectionable or funny. unless there
had been a quarrel between the spirit and the organism I do not see how
this could be; it is the very mark of the two not being "at home"
together. But it is very difficult to imagine such a state of affairs as
original--to suppose a creature which, from the very first was half
shocked and half tickled to death at the mere fact of being the creature
it is. I do not perceive that dogs see anything funny about being dogs;
I
suspect that angels see nothing funny about being angels. Our feeling
about the dead is equally odd. It is is idle to say that we dislike
corpses because we are afraid of ghosts. You might say with equal truth
we
fear ghosts because we dislike corpses--for the ghost owes much of its
horror to the associated ideas of pallor, decay, shrouds, and worms. In
reality we hate the division which makes possible the conception of either
corpse or ghost. Because the thing ought not be divided, each of the
halves into which it falls by division is detestable. The explanation that
Naturalism gives both bodily shame and of our feeling about the dead are
not satisfactory. It refers us to primitive taboos and superstitions--as
if these themselves were not obviously results of the thing to be
explained. But once accept the Christian doctrine that man was originally
a unity and the present division is unnatural, and all the phenomena
fall into place. It would be fantastic to suggest that the doctrine was
devised to explain our enjoyment of a chapte of Rabelais, a good ghost
stoyr, or the TALES of Edgar Allen Poe. It does so none the less."--C.S.
Lewis, MIRACLES.
... Better loved and lost than never lost at all.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BADMOUTH
|Date: 14 Apr 96 05:09:00
EID:6681 208e2920
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A5F99E
MB> That's because he's never turned the full force of his obnoxious
MB> personality on you. Likely THAT's because he a) needs an ally in
MB> this echo, and b) happens to like you for whatever reasons of his
MB> own. He has not extended those same courtesies to Lynda and me,
MB> probably because a) our take on the mythical portions of his
MB> theology make him acutely uncomfortable, causing him to display
MB> a rabid need to defend those mythical portions in both orthodox
MB> and unorthodox ways, and b) because he cannot stomach a woman
MB> with the balls to openly disagree with him on fundamental matters.
If that were the case, he would have twitted YOU rather than Dan, Dave,
etc. Could it not be simply because we agree on a few issues, while not
agreeing on a few others? Charging sexual bias without something to back
it up seems...especially since he would LIKE to talk to you, and has said
so repeatedly, whereas he has twitted others such as Dan, Dave, etc....I
must admit I see no sexism there (which is what your "cannot stomach a
woman" charge amounts to).
MB> Well, all I can say to the above is:
MB> T O U G H S H I T ! ! !
Your privilege. Too bad any RESPONSE he will make to the above charges
you will never see, since you twitted him. That way, you will never be
able to know if your impression of him is right...or merely a
midjudgement.
... I have NOT lost my mind, I left it over there, I think....
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 14 Apr 96 05:07:00
EID:311d 208e28e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A5FF7A
AS> It has ALWAYS been regarded as "impossible" for a man to rise
AS> from the dead, or a virgin to give birth, etc. unless some
AS> force outside the laws of nature reaches in and gives it
AS> impetus. Whether you are talking about a pagan god like
AS> Apollo or Jehovah or Kali or whomever.
MB> Correct. And the fact that Christianity makes these same,
MB> hackneyed claims is rather boring. Why should anybody give
MB> their claims any more credence than they give to the claims
MB> of the shamans in Central America or the NewAgers' claims
MB> that are similar or identical? Christianity is nothing but
MB> a retread of the same old superstitions that have been around
MB> since Man learned how to communicate with words.
Boring? Long familiarity has perhaps dulled your sense of wonder on that
scoare. I'm going to try to quote Dorothy L. Sayers, the renowned writer
of both mystery stories, plays, and translator of Dante, from memory. "If
the theme that God translated Himself into man---and then submitted
Himself to man's law and endured a tortured death on the cross...and THEN
rose from the DEAD...is called BORING...what in the world can we call
EXCITING?"
The reason we give their claims more credence is the same reason we
take the death of Abraham Lincoln or Caesar more seriously than the death
of Professor Moriarity or Little Nell...because we have multiple
accounts, both by eyewitnesses and those who spoke with eyewitnesses, of
the happenings, from within the lifetime of those who could refute it.
You cannot say that of the miracles of Apollo or Kali.
... Change is good... Cash is *better*
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: WARTS
|Date: 14 Apr 96 05:07:00
EID:2310 208e28e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A60EFC
AS> Maybe Lorena Bobbitt thought it was a reasonably big wart...
KW> I dunno, Al, I never heard of a wart with a penis hanging off it before.
Funny, sounds like a good description of half the ex-husbands
described in this echo...
... A naked man fears no pickpocket.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Frederic Rice
|Sub: LACK OF EVIDENCE
|Date: 14 Apr 96 05:02:00
EID:cf45 208e2840
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A61258
FR> What's interesting is that you elected to ignore all the direct quotes
from
FR> Adolf Hitler that I posted while still trying to insist that it's some
kind of
FR> Satanic conspiracy to prove that Hitler was a Christian. You elected
not to
FR> comment on the S.S. requirement of being a Christian and all the signatories
by
FR> official Christian churches which stated agreement with Hitler's plans.
FR> Amazing.
We could produce quotes aplenty about how much Hitler didn't want war but
wanted only enough territory to have a lasting peace, and how he would
honor the accord with Chamberlin. HE's a known liar, Fred. It is
IRRELVANT.
I wonder if you will EVER address the point Elliot has REPEATEDLY
brought up...his plans for the "National Reich Church" quoted from
Shirer's RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH? To say nothing of the fact
that I have brought up repeatedly, that a Christian who thought himself
a
Catholic would not shoot himself, and thereby earn damnation, especially
with no priest nearby to give last rites. Or John Gunther's point,
another renowned writer, about how Hitler did not attend any religious
services with any regularity.
Such sheer ducking of the issue and cowardice IS amazing, Fred.
Let me jog you about Elliot's point, and reprint what you have
consistently evaded:
Despite all this, his actions show pretty conclusively he was not a
Christian. Most who offer evidence or reasons why Hitler wasn't a
Christian point to his genocidal tendencies as being in conflict with
Christian doctrine.
I don't buy this since Christian anti Semitism had a long and bloody
history (i.e., his actions were not unlike those of European Christians
historically). Rather, Hitler wasn't a Christian because his behavior
really was antithetical.
The nazis planned to destroy Christianity in Germany, and started taking
over churches to that end, forming the "National Reich Church."
Some of it's 30 point program - and what made Hitler a non-Christian:
"To exterminate irrevocably .... the strange and foreign Christian faiths
imported into Germany imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800"
"The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains, or priests"
"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and
dissemination of the Bible in Germany"
"The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes,
Bibles, and pictures of saints"
"On the day of its (the National Reich Churches) foundation, the
Christian cross must be removed from all churches, cathedral, and chapels
and must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika"
Source: Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York:
Touchstone, 1959. p.240
Tell us again, Fred, how Hitler was a Christian. BTW...can you say, "IS
NOT!" any louder?
... I played poker with Tarot cards. Got a flush, five died.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRIS
|Date: 14 Apr 96 05:06:00
EID:6e7c 208e28c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A61924
ef> There WAS no extermination of the mentally ill, and
ef> no steralization going on within _Nazi Germany_ for
ef> "many years" prior to the concordat, simply because.....
ef> There WAS NO NAZI GERMANY PRIOR TO 1933.
FR> Amazing. You don't happen to believe that the Jewish Holocaust didn't
happen
FR> either, do you?
Of course not. Elliott has shown himself an interesting and
well-researched debater on the nontheist side. I deplore his bad taste to
get into a disagreement with Katherine, one of the more intelligent and
delightful ladies here, but other than that one lapse of taste he has
shown himself well-read and quite intelligent, and not one to ignore
FACTS. Unlike SOME I could mention.
BTW, Fred, when would YOU say Nazi Germany started?
Oh...and DO get used to this, until it is answered...here's Elliot's
point about Hitler again:
Despite all this, his actions show pretty conclusively he was not a
Christian. Most who offer evidence or reasons why Hitler wasn't a
Christian point to his genocidal tendencies as being in conflict with
Christian doctrine.
I don't buy this since Christian anti Semitism had a long and bloody
history (i.e., his actions were not unlike those of European Christians
historically). Rather, Hitler wasn't a Christian because his behavior
really was antithetical.
The nazis planned to destroy Christianity in Germany, and started taking
over churches to that end, forming the "National Reich Church."
Some of it's 30 point program - and what made Hitler a non-Christian:
"To exterminate irrevocably .... the strange and foreign Christian faiths
imported into Germany imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800"
"The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains, or priests"
"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and
dissemination of the Bible in Germany"
"The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes,
Bibles, and pictures of saints"
"On the day of its (the National Reich Churches) foundation, the
Christian cross must be removed from all churches, cathedral, and chapels
and must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika"
Source: Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York:
Touchstone, 1959. p.240
I can not return John's book to him. That was not part of the
> agreement. If I returned my book to him I would be breaking my
> word and I can not do that. I am a man of honor and will keep
> my word with John.
FR> I will testify against you for your extortion trial if asked to do so.
I will
FR> also provide the archives of your messages in a court of law if asked
to do so.
I have offered to do the same. You might be interested to know that I was
in #holysmoke the other night, Saturday, and Lynda and I were talking,
when George came. I called him a thief/vandal/blackmailer, and he tried
to whine it was "part of the agreement" with John. I rarely come to
#holysmoke, and considered it extreme good fortune to at least BEGIN to
tell George what an utter waste of breathing flesh he is. Then Lynda
booted him off.
... You can never have too much infinity.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 14 Apr 96 06:00:00
EID:ef62 208e3000
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A62CE8
AS> then always through half-shut eyes. Maybe I should have said opened
AS> their eyes WIDE.
JB> Well, Al, the hospital pictures of all 3 of my sons show them with their
JB> eyes WIDE open. Sorry!
Obviously senility is hitting me early...
... Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get eight cats to pull a sled.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 14 Apr 96 06:02:00
EID:ee85 208e3040
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A63A8A
JH> An Encyclopedia of Fairies (Briggs, 1976) gives
JH> many examples of fairy abductions. The similarities between
JH> fairy abductions and UFO abductions is startling. People who
JH> reported interactions with fairies generally reported marks
JH> on their bodies consistent with reports of alien abductions.
WHat is really needed is for people to really develop the UFOs as a
MYTHOLOGY. As actual claims they are worthless, but I am fascinated bu
the parellels I see both with old mythologies and fairy stories, and
someone needs to take the Grays, the Men in Black, the many stories and
try to write it as a cohesive whole, a mythology we can read as we do
Hesiod, or the Elder Edda, as literally a myth for our times.
... Reality is not a constant. Shut up and finish your dinosaur.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: BRANHAM THREE
|Date: 14 Apr 96 06:06:00
EID:33b4 208e30c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A64318
AS> [Image]
AS> SUIRRELS ARE CREATED
AS> [Image]
AS> And then this was on a Saturday, and be the last time I could
AS> hunt in the state of Indiana for squirrels this season. I went
AS> hunting quite a bit, and there had been much hunting. There's
AS> many hunters there in Indiana for the squirrels. They was all
AS> thinned out.
JH> Fantastic! A "prophet" who sounds like Uncle Remus.
I THOUGHT you'd like it.
AS> That morning was a bad morning, windy, wind blowing, and
AS> they just won't come out on those days.
JH> Yup. Them windy winds is the worst kind.
How can he tell when there are unwindy winds?
JH> Thanks for this. It may be a few days before I can get around to
JH> digesting it fully, but from the little I have scanned over it's
JH> priceless.
I thought so too. Just because I'm a believer, doesn't mean I think all
claims are equal, and it is for priceless silliness like this that
internet access is worth it.
... By all means, let's not confuse ourselves by the facts.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: LOSING THE LABELS (1/2)
|Date: 14 Apr 96 06:00:00
EID:aab7 208e3000
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A649BC
LB> That's it. You just described my current situation. Can I claim to
know
LB> God outside the Biblical depiction and still be christian? Can I work
out
LB> my OWN insight, or have all the revelations been caught in amber within
the
LB> pages of a book? (These are just some of the questions I'm working
out for
LB> myself -- I welcome opinion, but don't expect anyone to have the answers
LB> any more than I do)
Although if one wants to be Christian, surely it is relevant to look at
what Christ said...just as if one claims to be a Shakespearean scholar,
to look at what Shakespeare said. But no one, even the most inerrant
Christian, if they think about it, think all of God's purposes and wisdom
can be contained in a single book...even if the book is the Bible.
MB> there is much disparaging of "myth" from both sides and I don't understand
MB> why. The nontheists hurl the word as an insult, and the theists take
offense
MB> as though it were one. And I'm standing here scratching my head trying
to
MB> figure out what the heck is wrong with myth?? So when *I* call it myth,
MB> it is assumed that I'm using it as a putdown, and I'm not. Myth has
power.
MB> It puts into words and stories concepts that we "know" but don't have
the
MB> vocabulary for. And presents it in a way that gets the point acros
to people
MB> who otherwise might not understand.
As C.S. Lewis said, IF part of it was mytholgy, it is God's own
mythology, sent to teach and instruct. Lewis thought myth could be, "at
its best, a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human
imagination. The Hebrews, like other people, had mythology, but as they
were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology--the
mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truths,
the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where
truth has become completely historical." MIRACLES, C.S. Lewis.
MB> All this bickering about "my vision of the Almighty is better than
MB> your vision of the Almighty" is downright childish. That's why I
MB> twitted Mike. I was tired of his vehemency regarding his portrait
MB> being truer to the subject than Spong's -- or yours -- or mine.
LB> For the record, I'm with Al on this one. I still haven't used the twit
LB> feature, and likely never will. The temptation is there sometimes, but...
LB> If I twitted Mike, I wouldn't see those times when he DOES rise above
his
LB> dogmatic bent (and he does, Marilyn -- no matter how angry I am with
him,
LB> and how much I may say that he's stopped surprising me, he DOES surprise
me
LB> occasionally by trying again).
And if you twitted him, you would never see that. And the same applies
for Mike twitting others. If one is totally unreasonable, they can be
funny, if nothing else.
MB> Piss on him. Let him wallow in his own dogmatism. At least your
LB> I can't do that, however much I want to back out of the battle (and
I VERY
LB> much am tired of being a soldier in this particular crusade), I still
think
LB> that he is capable of more. That he reacts so strongly to my goad (and
I
LB> to his) tells me that we recognize ourselves in one another, so that
I can
LB> no more let him wallow than he can leave *me* alone.
LB> It's a good thing we are separated by a couple of states and monitor,
or we'd
LB> probably kill each other. (G)
Actually, you two remind me of an old married couple, that get into
HORRIBLE fights every few months, only make up a few days afterwards. (And
Marilyn reminds me of the stereotypical mother-in-law going, I don't know
what you ever saw in that loser, I told you never to go back to him, etc.)
... I would sooner be notorious than unknown.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: (1/2) LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 14 Apr 96 06:03:00
EID:9162 208e3060
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A65074
AS> How often have Fred and I agreed about ANYTHING?
LB> :) Rather more often than either one of you would recognize or admit,
LB> actually.
Yes, I have caught on that Fred is basically trolling. Although I do
think he owes Elliot a good answer, not an evasion, to Elliot's
well-researched point. Fred in real life is neither as arrogant nor as
antitheist as he appears here. (No one is doubting Fred's atheism or even
anti-Christian sentiments, just his "death cult" hyperbole.)
AS> I think that qualifies as a miracle. A sign. A wonder.
AS> Maybe especially...a sign.
LB> I hear you. You DID remember to raise shields before you "included him
in our
LB> fantasies" didn't you?
Maybe I AM a masochist...
... Dangerous exercise: jumping to conclusions
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: SPONG DEBATE
|Date: 14 Apr 96 06:07:00
EID:b043 208e30e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03A6583A
AS> Who said anything about fair? I wanted Falwell to be CREAMED!
LB> (G) And he would be. This is one point on which Michael and I were
always
LB> in agreement -- Falwell would have folded up like a card table with
a
LB> a broken leg.
Deservedly so.
AS> Too bad C.S. Lewis isn't around. I would have LOVED to see the two of
AS> them debate some of the literalness of the New Testament.
AS> But I must admit I doubt if that would have been a fair debate
AS> either... but let's just say I wouldn't be too worried about
AS> LEWIS...
LB> :) I would have liked to see that too -- two men who I respect very
much,
LB> who I think would have LIKED each other, in spite of opposing views,
bringing
LB> the whole thing together. I think each would have learned something.
I agree they would have liked each other; Lewis had his own problems with
fundamentalists who could not recognize an obvious metaphor. I'm sure
Spong would have learned something, and of course I would hope there was
something Lewis could learn from the exchange.
Nevertheless, though one wrote before the other, I think Spong's ground
would be known and well-trod in his mind by Lewis already; just judging
by this one book (which may be a hasty judgement) I'm not sure that Spong
has read, or if read, has really understood Lewis.
BTW, I like your quote from Spong that those who claim denying food to
the poor, and aid to the homeless, is part of some political Christian
agenda, that Christ would have never agreed or wanted it so.
... Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Norse mythology
|Date: 15 Apr 96 09:01:20
EID:410b 208f4820
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 1725fed0
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A5B51E
Hello Al!
Al Schroeder wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
AS> Yes. Again, I wonder if it was influenced by Christian
AS> tales...an Apocalypse, a new world order...mixed with Norse
AS> fatalism. Still, the majority of good forces go
AS> under--Odin, Heimdall Thor...unlike any other mythology I
AS> can think of.
I think your statement is true: that whatever knowledge is left
about the old nordic religion is influenced by Christianity. The
norsemen had contact with Christianity during at least 500 years
before they converted, and the old religion had incorporated a
good many of it's ideas and legends. Even the gods themselves
were not clearly defined in the late viking era, but a strange
and rather confused mixture of new and old, good and evil.
I don't think one could call Odin and Tor 'good forces'. Don't
forget their place in the triad of battle deities: Odin, the
symbol of ecstatic fury and ruthlessness - Tor, symbolizing brute
force - only Tyr (another half forgotten god) stood for what we
would call 'fair play' or 'legal and honorable battle'.
Nobody knows anything about the Heimdal cult. In the viking era
he had been relegated to the role of guardian of Bifrost, but
some researchers suspect he may originally have represented the
old Indoeuropean view of 'The Nature', son of heaven and earth -
something like Chronos - others think he might have been Helios.
It is very frustrating we have so few real traces of the norse
belief systems. NOTHING local exists about the myths in written
form from before 1000 AD, and we must go well into the Middle
ages before we get 2nd hand descriptions by Christian scribes.
Archaeology has yielded a scant amount of artifacts with pictures,
which MAY be referring to religious matters, but could also
simply record local history. Runic script was adopted from the
Romans (they were illiterate before that), and inscriptions
found are mainly too short and terse to prove or disprove
anything.
MM> BTW, I always name my Rottweilers from the mythology:
MM> Fafner, Erda, Embla, Odin. Odin and Embla are presently in
MM> residens, but Fafner was my greatest love.... a 75kg giant.
AS> You don't have a cat named Seigfried who bites Fafnir, do you?
Of course not, as a Dane I would have called him Sigurd :-)))
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: face value
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:07:53
EID:2454 208fa0e0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 1725fed6
REPLY: 1:3615/51 00190959
Hello Larry!
Larry Bevard wrote in a message to Sue Armstrong:
>LB> Also, the grave was described as unmarked, and
>LB> only a few of the closest disciples knew where it was, and soon after
>LB> this, most of the converts were either killed or left the city. So,
>LB> most of the ones that would have known had left the city. Besides
>LB> that, since Jesus was not even in the tomb anymore, why venerate it?
>LB> you don't raise up a tomb for someone that is not dead and honor it.
>LB> The final point is that in 70 AD the city was leveled by the
>LB> Romans during the Jewish revolt, so the tomb would not even exist
SA>I don't see why not - the Wailing Wall is still there, part of the
SA>temple that was destroyed.
LB> The Wailing Wall was dug out of the ruble long after the
LB> city was destroyed. The Grave, being unmarked, and probably
LB> used again, would be hard to fine.
Now, just THINK a minute... the grave can in no way have been part
of the temple or the Wailing Wall. Burials were not permitted on
holy ground, and do you really think the Sanhedrin (or Pilate)
would have made an exception for a convicted criminal?
All 4 Evangelists describe it as 'hewn out of rock with a great
stone rolled across the door', so it was obviously a burial cave
(as was used a lot at the time. If you have tried to do some
serious digging in your garden in the Jerusalem district, you
would see why).
BTW, you DO know that Jews are not encased in any kind of coffins
but, wrapped in a shroud, laid directly in the grave. That was the
custom, then and now, so no tomb would ever have been 'raised up',
as you express it - especially not for a common man like Jesus.
SA> You'd think that some of those early Christians would have thought
SA> it important enough to find.
LB> Actually, they did. In 325 AD Constantin's wife went to
LB> the Holy Land and erected churches on the sites of the
LB> birth of Jesus, on Calvary and on the tomb, but it was all
LB> just guess work.
Yes, just wishful thinking, and even though her 'Calvary' might
not be located in an impossible spot it has strong competition
from 'Gordon's Golgotha'. The Holy Sepulcher Church is much
too close to the Antonian Fortress (of which the horse stable
floors still exist under the Ecce Homo Convent - very nicely
made in non-slip wave pattern) INSIDE the city walls, so Helena
got that all wrong. 'The Garden Tomb' well OUTSIDE the city walls
is more convincing - it definitely is a burial cave from the
right period and fits the description, but of course nobody knows
by whom it has been used - no inscriptions were found.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: GAY LOVE? not really
|Date: 15 Apr 96 21:45:24
EID:cb96 208fada0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 1725fed5
REPLY: 1:3615/51 00190976
Hello Larry!
Larry Bevard wrote in a message to Judith Bandsma:
JB>I don't understand why Judas gets such a bad rap...especially from
JB>christians. If the whole idea was planned out by god in advance of the
JB>nativity, then SOMEONE would have had to take the part played by Judas.
JB>Without the betrayal, in some form, the crucifixion would not have
JB>been as likely to take place...leaving no room for a resurrection.
JB>
JB>Judas is only a step below Jesus in importance when it comes to that
event.
JB>So why does christianity teach that Judas is in hell?
LB> I, believe it or not, have to agree with you on this
LB> one. First of all, I do not know, even from studying the
LB> bible passages, that Judas is in hell or not, I guess I'll
LB> just have to wait and see .
You studied the wrong book. It is Dante, that old chatterbox,
who claims that in the bottom of Hell sits Satan and chew on Judas.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 7107/21 9 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: [1/2] ALLEGORY
|Date: 15 Apr 96 01:53:01
EID:2eaa 208f0ea0
MSGID: 1:109/611.0 3172389f
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A6A424
PID: BWQBBS 3.11 [Eval]
Marilyn and Al were killing time yakking about [1/2] ALLEGORY:
MB> Al is making a very common mistake by going from the specific to
MB> the general much too quickly. Just because ONE person knows
MB> something, it in no way follows that ALL people know the same
MB> thing. That is true today, and was even truer before the mass
MB> communications systems we now have. And, even those who have heard
MB> a particular factoid are not necessarily going to agree with it,
MB> even if it later turns out to be a given. Ptolemy could have
MB> shouted that factoid from the rooftops, and all most people in
MB> that time and place would have done is think he's a nut.
AS> But the point was, Ptolemy's claims were taken as Gospel for over a
AS> thousand years...a thousand years where people accepted both the
AS> smallness of the universe and the truth of the miracles of the
AS> Gospels. Yet suddenly Spong seems to think we cannot reconcile the
AS> two. Why is that? I am just pointing out that Dante knew the Earth
AS> was small, compared to the distance to the stars, just as we do...yet
AS> did not feel it ridiculous that God could be concerned about Earth.
However, Ptolemy -- and everyone for well over a thousand years afterwards,
STILL saw the earth as the center of said universe. When it became
apparent that that wasn't the case, the objection was strong enough to
have people threatened with heresy for daring to suggest such a thing --
because to believe that we weren't the center took, to quote someone
here "the power" away from their idea of God and his relationship to us.
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Automating: A couple making love in a car.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: AD Multi-Node Message BBS (703) 241-1826 (1:109/611@FIDONET)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 15 Apr 96 11:01:56
EID:b117 208f5820
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3172390f
REPLY: 1:3828/1.0 316eaa0c
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Robert were killing time yakking about [1/2] Losing the Labels:
RJ> (Funny how you lose touch with people when someone new comes
RJ> into your life, n'est-ce pas?)
LB> :) Then it sounds as though you have your priorities right.
RJ> Uh-uh. Perish the thought!
(G)
LB> until I get a solid fix on just what that means. If I can't do that,
LB> then I have a real dilemma, because I'd rather be a non-christian than
LB> a wrong one. (wry smile)
RJ> Yeah, I think that's how I started on the road to ruin. ;->
hehe -- well, that's comforting.
LB> theology. Perhaps if they don't feel they have to defend their
LB> "Name", they can address what I am bringing up for perusal. Even more
RJ> Good luck.
Just call me Don Quixote.
LB> against it. I need to move back far enough to stop being controlled
by
LB> the anger their words generate in me.
LB> Was that confusing enough to make it all clear? ;)
RJ> Works for me.
And Robert backs away thinking "I'm sorry I asked...." ;)
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Acid Rain - Not as groovey as it sounds.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 15 Apr 96 11:05:27
EID:222f 208f58a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31723910
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Judith were killing time yakking about [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS:
LB> To be honest, Judith, I have been the classic example of what is
LB> called here a "Salad Bar Christian". It hasn't bothered me a bit to
LB> refrain from putting on my plate MANY of the teachings of the bible.
JB> Sorry, Lynda, but I defy you to show me ANY christian that lives by
JB> ALL the precepts of the book they say they do. Some take the parts of
:) I know. Nor would I want to be in close proximity to anyone who tried.
What I said above was no self-indictment -- I do not understand the term
"salad bar" being used as a put down. And it's used to somehow critisize
those who HAVE had discerment enough to realize that not everything in the
bible is literal. In some measure, it's "damned if you do, damned if you
don't", no?
JB> the salad that are closer to the heart...those of love, respect for
JB> others and caring for their neighbors. Others prefer the bitter
JB> fruits...those of bigotry and hatred and disdain. Then they call those
JB> things 'liberal christians' or 'conservative christians' as if the
JB> label means something.
heh -- that's a pretty good way of putting it, not only for christians but
for
all of us.
JB> It's my biggest gripe with christianity as practiced by most
JB> today...they call the words and teachings of Jesus, when put into
JB> action by those who believe them important, 'communism',
JB> 'bleeding-heart liberalism', etc. Well, there wasn't anyone more
JB> liberal, now was there?
bingo.
JB> The same way in your analogy...if I am the one following the rules of
JB> Girl Scouting, living by the Promise and Law and the others aren't,
JB> then who is the Girl Scout?
Uhhh -- the ones who paid their dues? (G)
JB> Go find a Quaker Meeting. It will satisfy your spiritual side while
JB> allowing you to lose the label of christian.
I got your email, and wound up printing it out so I could hightlight and
mark it up at will. I'm interested, and will probably wind up with a few
questions while I digest it. :)
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ "I'll have to convert to floating point," Tom realized.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: hi
|Date: 15 Apr 96 11:18:29
EID:b923 208f5a40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31723911
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 654bb562
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and J.J. were killing time yakking about hi:
JH>> Martin (I've also tried to lure Lynda to this, but she's
JH>> not replied to my invitation.)
LB> YES I DID! (Somebody please shoot FIDO)
JH>
JH> Argh... I cant even get NetMail from across town.
JH> I was setting up BlooWabe for someone and I sent a couple of test
JH> messages to my own address. I KNOW THEY WENT OUT. I wrote and
JH> uploaded them myself. It's been almost a week and they haven't made
JH> it home yet.
hehe -- it's getting pretty bad when you aren't even on speaking terms with
yourself!
LB> Don and I have already discussed it on the phone, and I'm taking
LB> the day off work to drive up there.
JH> God forbid (figure of speach, folks) that a person miss a day of
JH> revenue production on my behalf. Maybe we can make it an
JH> evening diner?
No, actually lunch works better for me. It's a bit of a drive, and this
way
I'm not trying to make the trip home late at night. And no day's revenue
will be lost, as I'm working the Saturday to make up for it.
It's been a long time since I used a day off work to do something more exciting
than catching up on laundry -- I'm looking forward to it!
LB> Now, will I be looking for two men, or a man and a woman,
LB> or....? ;)
JH> Yes.
As I suspected. ;)
JH> I'll be wearing rainbow suspenders and a pinstripe railroader's
JH> cap. I should be pretty hard to miss.
So I'm looking for Robin Williams...?
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: [1/2] Losing the Labels
|Date: 15 Apr 96 11:51:14
EID:9931 208f5e60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31723912
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 12635683
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Marilyn were killing time yakking about [1/2] Losing the Labels:
LB> You can see why the task of actually responding to the above
LB> was a bit daunting.
MB> it is for you to express your own mind? Don't you KNOW the whole
MB> purpose of this echo is "us" against "them?"
Many people seem to think so, don't they? I see it as one of the "little
miracles" of the place that that perception can change, over time, by simply
getting to know one another...
MB> There is a fundamental dishonesty about Michael that he just
MB> can't see. He has a blind spot a mile wide when it comes to
MB> his own shortcomings, and a 20/20 spot a universe wide when
MB> it comes to yours.
*sigh* And that is also a fair description of most of us. Marilyn, my largest
problem with Michael has always been our similarities -- they make the
difference in our conclusions jarring. He is asking for help in overcoming
those blindspots, and that is more than some people here will EVER do.
I can't fault him for that.
MB> You are torturing yourself over something
MB> you cannot possibly change, because it is HIS shortcoming, not
MB> yours.
More accurately, it's ours. Michael's. Mine. Yours. No, I can't change
him.
I can change my reaction. You've got a fix on how to do that by deciding
to
twit him -- and your reasoning there makes sense. You know he sets up a
rage
in you that doesn't do you any good. What helps ME sleep through the night
is having confidence that I've treated people fairly and that I haven't
unnecessarily given up too soon. Don't worry about me "torturing" myself.
I'm just being a bit noisy about my own self-examination.
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: [1/3] ALLEGORY 1/2
|Date: 15 Apr 96 11:30:25
EID:0e27 208f5bc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31723913
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 8c504c3f
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Marilyn were killing time yakking about [1/3] ALLEGORY 1/2:
MH> Since that apparently is not a productive tactic, I'll
MH> resolve only to espouse positions I wholeheartedly endorse.
MH> Yes, evolving toward belief is of value in itself.
LB> Thank you, on both counts.
MB> But, would he have made the above admission, had his back not
MB> been thoroughly pinned against the wall? I see no sign he would
MB> have. It is only when the conversation has disintegrated to the
MB> point where we are discussing HIS TACTICS rather than the issues
MB> that we've been able to get this admission at all. WHY do we
I'm puzzled -- sometimes that's what it TAKES. I can't justify backing
him
into that wall (and damned near pushing him through it) and then saying
"nope,
not good enough, you should have cried 'uncle' earlier." That would be mental
cruelty.
Would it have been nice if less strong measures could have been taken? YES.
But if they could have, there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
We KNOW Michael doesn't see the way he appears -- now he has finally admitted
that himself and is asking for help getting over it. I wouldn't fault a
blind man for asking me to be his eyes, I'm not going to fault Mike for
admitting he needs assistance here. I'm stunned that he's ASKING. That
is
a big step for him -- and I'm not putting any conditions on how he got to
this point.
LB> Is this important enough to keep him, and even to protect him
LB> -- because its not about protecting HIM. It's about
LB> protecting a faith that would be less for losing him. If
MB> No, it's about protecting a faith that would be less for losing
MB> THEM, not him. He is just one man; they are legion, and they are
MB> the ones who are about to be lost.
There you are right. And I hope he will address it.
LB> Spong is to be considered heretic, there are many, many
LB> people who have come to the conclusion that the faith has no
LB> room for them, me included.
MB> It's Michael that has made the faith exclusionary. It is he who is
MB> limiting to a much greater extent that Christ ever would have.
No, it is a whole lot of people within the Episcopal church who have generated
this one -- Michael just makes a convenient personification of that view,
primarily because his views are close enough to mine as to even have a
reference point...I wouldn't go after Jim Staal or Kenneth McAbee, because
both of them have an expression of faith that is so at odds with mine that
their opinion of Spong, or even conservative Episcopals wouldn't matter.
LB> You made the point that conservatism is spreading, and I
LB> agree -- must you herd us not only into one small corner of
LB> the faith, but remove us completely? Leave us *this* much
LB> breathing space, because it may be that you need us more than
LB> you realize. And while it suits you to think that a liberal
LB> christian cares less than you do about the wellbeing of the
LB> faith as a whole, you are wrong -- being a liberal christian
LB> does not mean being a weak christian. It means caring about
LB> those who don't come wrapped in a pretty package, or
LB> requiring them to pay for our compassion with an expression
LB> of faith.
MB> Michael really believes that you have to hold your mouth a certain
MB> way, or you "just don't get it." I'm certain of that, regardless
MB> of all the back-pedaling he's doing at the moment.
I want to hear what he says, though...
LB> If our case is unassailable then we don't need to be shrill
LB> and intolerant, we don't have to raise our voice. We just
LB> have to improve our argument. If we are the followers of
LB> Christ then we must use the methods of Christ. He would not
LB> approve of inquisitions, of burning witches and heretics at
LB> the stake and shouting down and vilifying our opponents.
LB> -- Archbishop Desmond Tutu
MB> Michael doesn't think he is shrill; he thinks he is being "right."
hehe -- actually that was a reminder to myself not to be shrill, as well
as a reminder to him...
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
... "Klingons do NOT procrastinate! It is a...TACTICAL delay!" -- Worf
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: [2/2] [1/2] ALLEGORY
|Date: 15 Apr 96 11:54:27
EID:ac09 208f5ec0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31723914
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 e5451024
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Marilyn were killing time yakking about [2/2] [1/2] ALLEGORY:
MH> Al's passing on my message to Marilyn had nothing to do with
MH> it. I would have apologized even if he had refused to forward
MH> the post. He may have felt he needed some leverage, though I
MH> don't know why he would think such a thing, and it's
MH> certainly not the case.
LB> That I do believe. Thanks. It's not anything that is personal
LB> towards you here, but I don't like apologies that are made
LB> without first knowing why. I DO know the whys, and I stand by
LB> what I said -- you have nothing to apologize for. You spoke
LB> the truth according to what you believe, and I respect the
LB> integrity of that, even when I don't like it that it is the
LB> truth.
MB> You do notice, of course, that there is not a word about a need
MB> to apologize to ME. It has never occurred to him that I have in
MB> any way been hurt by this whole debacle, and that is why I've
MB> twitted him. He'll leave a certain amount of latitude for
MB> diversity among believers, but by damn, NONbeliever had better
MB> get it RIGHT!
You make a very good point here, and I hope he will see it and address it.
One *tiny* point though -- since you've made it clear that you don't read
his posts and that you will never decide to change your opinion of him,
he may not be up to having his head handed back to him on a platter right
now.
Don't ask for giant leaps from someone who's just learning how to walk.
Let me ask you, if -- not now, when it would seem as though he were doing
it
just because, but later -- he were to apologize to you, after getting
further into this self-assessment he's making, would you accept it? Ever?
MB> He's a real piece of work, Lynda, and he'll stay in my twit
MB> filter. I would not have seen his word, had you not quoted
MB> them back, because anything that has his name on the FROM
MB> line is vapor when it hits my tosser.
Hmmm. Marilyn, I am at the same time really grateful to you that you came
to my aid at a time when I very much NEED someone to be on my side, and
also
feeling guilty that you've let my problems force you back into an encounter
that you know isn't good for you. Would it help if I put a "Hit the return
button, Marilyn" at the top of my messages to him? I mean this is all
seriousness -- I don't want you to do what your better judgement has already
decided you shouldn't, nor do I want you to see his words solely through
MY filter, because what I choose to quote isn't always an accurate picture
of
his entire post. I'd rather you didn't read them at all than be responsible
for you taking on MY perception of what is being said.
MB> You also notice that the only reason who got even as much
MB> apology as you did is because he found out that there were
MB> "things going on in your life." In other words, so long as
MB> he can delude himself into thinking that nobody in this
MB> conference has a life outside this conference, we're fair
MB> game for his "I'm right and you're wrong" style of discourse.
MB> Now, THAT's real sensitive. NOT!
A REALLY good point. And I hope a lot of people here were listening to it.
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Rainbows apologize for angry skies.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: LAURA HODGKINS
|Sub: angles
|Date: 15 Apr 96 08:15:46
EID:25e4 208f41e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 167e8391
REPLY: 1:322/746 a6306d09
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
LAURA HODGKINS wrote in a message to DAN CEPPA:
-> possible to LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
->
-> It would depend on which type of mushrooms you are eating.
LH> I'm not eating any mushrooms
About the only time anyone sees angels is when Disney releases another movie.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: Shoot him Jimmy! - Angel
|Date: 12 Apr 96 12:34:00
EID:e959 208c6440
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Marilyn Burge <=-
>MB> I tend to agree with the axiom that an armed society is
>MB> a polite society.
An armed society is an easily-induced-to-violence society.
JH> Yet that assumes you are dealing with a society of
JH> non-idiots.
Which does not exist.
JH> A firearm kept at home is FOURTY TIMES more likely to be
JH> used against a family member than it is to be used against
JH> an outside attacker or intruder.
In my book that's an argument =FOR= gun ownership. If I had
only shot my father and my mother's second spouse and claim I
thought they were the Hillside Stranglers, the planet would
be a =MASSIVELY= nicer place to live and I would have merely
been fined a small fee for discharging a firearm within city
limits. (GOD BLESS THE N.R.A.! Gods, how I love em!)
JH> Those are national figures. Here in Houston, with our
JH> large Hispanic population (which is burdoned with the
JH> cancer of "machismo"), the ratio is much higher. Reports
JH> of family members killing each other is an almost daily
JH> occurance. Maybe once or twice a year do I hear of
JH> someone shooting a burglar or attacker.
The problem isn't guns: it's our INNATE violent natures. Guns
merely allow us to kill easier, quicker, and without the fuss
and mess of stabbings, bludgonings, impalings, burnings,
drownings, stranglings, and all of the other modes of homo-
disposal that social misfits dream up.
Alcohol generally makes is much easier to pull the trigger.
The only way to decrease violence is a MASSIVE indoctrination
of ETHICS and personal responsibility that every citizen must
be subjected to. Our society must also cease preparing for
war and cease using violence as entertainment.
Naturally none of these things will occur, therefore we must
learn to live with insane levels of violence.
I propose that every hand gun owner in America be denied the
right to purchase or have in his or her possession alcohol:
if a person wants to drink, they must not own a hand gun; if
they want to own a hand gun, they must not buy, store, or
drink alcohol. The only way this law could be inforced is by
a Nazi-like Gestapo system, complete with storm troopers,
informers, rewards to informants, and complete, total
revocation of every citizen's right to privacy.
... Republicans don't need abortions: they eat their young!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KENNETH MCABEE
|Sub: Kenneth the neo-atheist
|Date: 12 Apr 96 12:45:00
EID:846e 208c65a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to David Rice <=-
>DR> Satan is not "also known as" Lucifer. Satan is a totally
>DR> different god than Lucifer, with his own aspects and
>DR> attributes (to use the technical terms).
KM> Only one God[sic]. And it's not Satan/Lucifer.
Yes, atheist, we've heard it all before.
Why do you refuse to believe in all of the gods except a few?
>>KM> that was his problem, he thought he was.
>DR> Funny how you give your gods thoughts.
KM> I don't have any "gods".
But I thought you were a Christian. My mistake. Sorry.
>>KM>> I don't believe in hundreds of thousands of other gods,
>>KM>> because the don't exist.
>DR> In other words, you lack belief in them. Ergo, you're
>DR> atheist.
KM> Nope, can't be an atheist because I believe in God[sic].
You just said you lack belief in most of the gods. That is
very close to atheism. What is keeping you from lacking the
belief in the ones you do believe in? Why lack belief in
some but not others?
>>KM>> God in the Bible, the one that sent his Son[sic] to die
>>KM>> on a cross for all our sins, does exist and always has.
>DR> Since there exists no more evidence for that freaky claim as
>DR> there is evidence that god's sons Hercules and Perseus (among
>DR> other sons of god) exists.
>DR>
>DR> Hince my question: you are an atheist, and yet to still
>DR> cling to the Christian gods. How is it you deny so many of
>DR> the gods, and not deny the other gods?
KM> There are no other gods to deny,
Wow. I'm utterly startled! VERY FEW other atheists would make
that claim.
KM> the only God[sic] that exist is the one that sent his
KM> Son[sic] to die on the cross.
Athists.
>>KM>> No pride, not rebellion, just following the truth of the
>>KM>> Bible, there is only One[sic] True[sic] God[sic],
>DR> I.e. you're a neo-atheist. You lack belief in the
>DR> hundreds of thousands of gods that exist.
KM> Sorry but the dictionary disagrees with you.
Yeah, right.
>>KM>> and there has only been One[sic], not two, not three,
>>KM> not a few, only One[sic].
>DR> In actual FACT, there are so many gods, one would be hard
>DR> pressed to list them all.
KM> There are no other gods.
No other gods except all of yours? How can you know such
things? Where is your evidence? Why believe in the gods you
currently do and lack belief in the others?
... " I got the Netware-Standard-Floppy-Install Blues. . . ."
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 12 Apr 96 12:49:00
EID:d408 208c6620
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to David Rice <=-
>DR> Not that it matters at all, but I've never done such a
>DR> thing before, and I'll probably die from drowning. But
>DR> what the fuck.
SA> IOW, you're going walkabout. Good luck; the thought has
SA> struck me yet again now that spring's here, but I'd probably
SA> just remain stuck on this stupid continent.
I won't be able to take the boat-sitting job in Tahiti, but
there may be a two-week-long boat-sitting job in Cabo San
Lucas next month that I can get (same boat). I've already
bought the salt shaker and the jumbo margaritta glass.
... I'm Thomas Vail's best friend. And I know where the negatives are!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HOLY SMOKE
|Date: 15 Apr 96 06:37:00
EID:5822 208f34a0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Lawrence Mccurry <=-
LM> === Lawrence ===
AS> Killer weed, dude.
I really think he's down to seeds and stems, though.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: SCIENCE
|Date: 15 Apr 96 06:53:00
EID:33fb 208f36a0
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to J.j. Hitt <=-
JH> It is a well-known fact that a deceased body harms the mind.
SA> {stunned look}
These might be students, Sue, but the gov't printing office once had a
pamphlet on hypothermia (since, thankfully, revised) that listed
unconciousness and death in the 'signs and symptoms'.
After reading that, try telling a group of 12-14 yr. olds that they are
in NO danger from hypothermia in South Carolina in August.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Grant Farrington
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Very much mythology!
|Date: 15 Apr 96 16:26:08
EID:c23e 208f8340
MSGID: 3:640/201.3 317279bf
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 316d0092
Hello Lynda.
11 Apr 96 11:51, Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Grant Farrington:
GF>> How could they think anything else ? Science ridicules most of
GF>> what the Bible says.
LB> Odd. I believe science is in the business of discovering the truth
LB> about those things which are physically measurable and observable, not
LB> "ridiculing" anything. Science doesn't ADDRESS the arena of faith,
LB> much less "ridicule" it.
Science has proven that the garden of eden is a myth. The same with the
Noah's Ark scenario. Jesus spoke of both of these so if we know that both
are fantasy then it kinda makes the whole thing invalid.
Grant
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta6 UNREG
* Origin: Wild Magic BBS Hervey Bay Qld OZ (3:640/201.3)
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|From: Grant Farrington
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 15 Apr 96 16:58:28
EID:fd58 208f8740
MSGID: 3:640/201.3 31728093
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316DE35D
Hello Mark.
10 Apr 96 20:56, Mark Barnett wrote to Grant Farrington:
MB> Thats about the size of it. That is why God promiesed never to do it
MB> again.
Come on Mark, you must've read the Noah FAQ. Surely you can see that to
believe that the Noah's Ark scenario was a reality borders on mental illness
?
Grant
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta6 UNREG
* Origin: Wild Magic BBS Hervey Bay Qld OZ (3:640/201.3)
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|From: Dennis Hall
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: [INSERT DRIVEL HERE]
|Date: 14 Apr 96 19:06:53
EID:2d9e 208e98c0
>DH> I realise that not everybody can swallow that, but I feel that it
>DH> is possible, and further, it is what I believe. Dennis Hall
>
>
> This is not evidence for god. This is something that you decided
> was evidence. Could Jesus have existed without a god. Sure he
I'm not sure, but I think that you asked me why I believed, and I answered
that question accurately.
> REASONS TO DOUBT THE EXISTANCE OF A GOD.
>
> 1. Major Errors in the bible.
> 2. The need of god to test us.
> 3. The existance of many different gods.
> 4. The general lack of perfection in the universe.
> 5. The once god explained and now naturally explained phenomenae.
> 6. Deeds of retribution and vengence attributed to god and humans
> joy over it.
> 7. God's need for thanks.
> 8. Suffering of people who do not deserve it.
REASONS THAT THOSE ARE OLD TIRED ARGUMENTS.
1. Major truths/undeniable realities in the bible.
2. You have made an assumption concerning God's motivation for testing.
3. A rock could be a god to someone.
4. The general abundance of generalizations.
5. Weak argument.
6. Are you saying that there is a right and a wrong? Where do your standards
come from?
7. See 2.
8. See 6.
Would you feel better if I were to lose my faith?
Dennis
--- FLAME v1.1
# Origin: Sound Doctrine BBS (303) 680-7209 - Aurora, CO, USA (1:104/514)
* Origin: Connect Colorado, Denver CO, 1.303.371.2967 (1:104/710)
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|From: Dennis Hall
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: PASCAL'S WAGER
|Date: 14 Apr 96 19:10:43
EID:42cf 208e9940
>DH> anything that we worship is a god, which includes celebrities, my
>DH> beautiful new car, money, or even one's self.
>
>DH> Agree? Disagree? No opinion?
>
> I agree to a point. Yet does this make it any more justified than
> belief in your god?
Well, we were talking about Pascal's Wager, and although I'm not really
backing that line of reasoning, I would die for what I believe in.
--- FLAME v1.1
# Origin: Sound Doctrine BBS (303) 680-7209 - Aurora, CO, USA (1:104/514)
* Origin: Connect Colorado, Denver CO, 1.303.371.2967 (1:104/710)
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|From: Dennis Hall
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: WHAT IS A RELIGION?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 19:20:19
EID:01f8 208e9a80
>DH> It seems more logical to be an agnostic than an atheist unless
>DH> you have faith in the "fact" or idea that there is no God.
>
> I do not need faith in the fact. Facts, by definition, stnd by
> themselves.
Exactly. If I told anyone in this conference to prove that God did not exist,
they would foam at the mouth and tell me something to the effect that one
cannot prove the "non-existence" of something. That sounds fair enough to
me.
Do you believe in anything spiritual/ethereal?
Dennis
--- FLAME v1.1
# Origin: Sound Doctrine BBS (303) 680-7209 - Aurora, CO, USA (1:104/514)
* Origin: Connect Colorado, Denver CO, 1.303.371.2967 (1:104/710)
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|From: Dennis Hall
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: what is an atheist?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 18:44:55
EID:0b4f 208e9580
> -=> Quoting Dennis Hall to Fredric Rice <=-
>
>DH> Let me restate. Atheism according to Webster:
>
> You need a different dictionary. Webster was a theist and allowed it
> to
> color his lexicography. Try the OED.
I don't have an OED handy, but doesn't "a" mean without? In any case, what,
in your estimation is the modern meaning of the word atheist? I'll check
out the Oxford in the meantime.
Thanks,
Dennis
--- FLAME v1.1
# Origin: Sound Doctrine BBS (303) 680-7209 - Aurora, CO, USA (1:104/514)
* Origin: Connect Colorado, Denver CO, 1.303.371.2967 (1:104/710)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:16:00
EID:ce14 208eaa00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 3571ae26
SA> EM> Hi. Evidently, my enjoyment of kim chee with butterscotch
SA> EM> pudding isn't as odd as we thought.
SA>Isn't kim chee fermented cabbage?
Naw. He's the Vice-President of Korea.
---
* OLX 2.2 * There is no cause for alarm. And the check's in the mail
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:16:00
EID:3820 208eaa00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 81a06de3
MB>LB>literally, the earth is discribed as having only one land mass and
one
MB>LB>large sea. There was also no rain before the flood. Also, not only
was
MB>LB>there rain coming down, but the discription says that the well springs
MB>LB>of the earth opened up. So, we had a flatter earth, rain coming down
MB>LB>and water coming up violently from below the earth, so as little as
3
MB>LB>inch of rain an hour for 40 days would cover the earth (we had close
to
MB>LB>that in Iowa in 1993). Also, this would have broke up the land mass,
and
MB>LB>brought about mountains from the violent earthquakes that would have
MB>I am going to save this and if you don't mind I might use the ideals
in
MB>it later?
Just be sure you don't try to use these 'ideals' on someone with a
brain.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundys knee-deep in gasoline tossing matches at infidels.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Stan Phillips
|Sub: Bullshit Science and Fait
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:16:00
EID:674e 208eaa00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org da098f60
SP>DM> JG> about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr. Thomas
G.
SP>Barnes,DM> JG> Professor Emeritus of Physics at the University of Texas.
..
SP>DM>..... Pustule, that among scientists and on this echo
SP>DM> generally, the coveted Institute of Creation Research
SP>DM> imprimatur is regarded as a solid gold guarantee of pure
SP>DM> bullshit.
SP>Hi there, I was not aware that the University of Texas was the same
SP>place as the "Institute of Creation Research".
It isn't.
SP>Interesting.
What *is* interesting is that the physics dep't at UT never heard
of this guy. I called them. And sent the phone # to Germy. He
hasn't responded. What a fucking surprise.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:16:00
EID:c987 208eaa00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 180d4c7f
SW>DC> EF> We want your justification for god ordering the slaughter
of
SW>DC> innocent
SW>DC> EF> children and women captives. You keep ducking this point.
I
SW>DC> don't
SW>DC>
SW>DC> SW> I wrote what I wrote. Its already Justified.
SW>DC>
SW>DC> IOW, it's ok because your murdering god says its ok.
SW>DC>
SW>DC> You'd do better at the Mass Murderers Echo down the hall,
SW>DC> next to the Bunnies and light crowd.
SW>It was a time of war Dan. Things happen. During dessert storm, the media
trie
SW>to revile Norman Swarzkoff becuase of the way some soldiers killed iraqi
What is a dessert storm? When the wind blows banana-cream pies into
your face?
And you're completely full of bullshit. The media practically
*canonized* Gen. Swartzkopf (I notice your spelling of his name
is about as apt as your spelling of simple words) as a fucking
HERO. What kind of media do you watch, anyway???
SW>troops(they ran over there foxholes in M1 tanks)-his response was "THere's
No
SW>one nice way to kill someone" What can you do in a time of war? There's
a tim
SW>for every season under heaven Dan.
Sure, according to your moronic interpretation of nature, you (and
others of your ilk who subscribe to the deathcult idiocy known to
you as 'religion', have the divine right to pass judgment, right
down to 'pulling the switch' on the heathens.
Fuck you and your alleged deity.
SW>You'll get all your answers one day Dan, you'll get to meet the main
Man God
SW>Himself-but..what side of the gate are you gonna be on?
If there's a 'gate', I sure as fuck hope I'm on the OPPOSITE side
from you, asshole.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If idiots could fly, he would be a 747.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Pinnacle of Life
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:16:00
EID:51cc 208eaa00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 333b1c0e
TR> DC> There isn't one, Jack. Each and every organism that exists on
TR> DC> this planet owes its existance in some form or fashion to every
TR> DC> other organism that also exists. The path may not be in a direct
TR> DC> line, there may even be some isolated enclaves, but the life
TR> DC> requires the interdependence of all of that life in the system(s).
TR> Try and follow my argument here, Dan, and lets get away from all
of this
TR>Elton John Circle of Life Love Animals Don't Eat Them bullshit, okay?
We,
TR>as a species, are no longer driven by the forces of evolution, but rather
TR>change those same forces at will. Do we do this completely? No. But
do
TR>we do it? Yes.
TR> We are the highest lifeform on the planet. Period. We are, at
least
TR>so far, it. The top. And no amount of tree-hugging bullshit sentimentality
TR>can change this. Are we here forever? No. Can we be killed by the
simplest
TR>of lifeforms? Yes. But I dare you to name one other organism on the
planet
TR>which can affect the planet as a whole as much (for good or ill) as we
can.
TR>You can't. Period.
Jack, your point is, I'm sure, well intended. But I can knock it on
its ass with one word.
Bees.
---
* OLX 2.2 * My computer is shittier than your computer.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: William Hsu
|Sub: Survey
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:55:00
EID:ef58 208e5ee0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org e3d08e63
WH>confidential. I will be the only one who will see the information therefore
WH>you do not have to leave your name. I sincerely ask you to take about
10
Those of us who don't run BBSs can't easily send anonymous mail. Not
that it makes a shit...
WH> ~SURVEY ON VIEWS OF SIN AND LIFE AFTER DEATH~
WH>Age: 53 Gender: m
WH>Denomination/Church group: none
WH>Do you or your church emphasize on one particular belief or some particular
WH>beliefs? (Yes/No) yes
WH>If so, what are they?
Don't fuck with anybody who doesn't fuck with you.
WH>How would you define sin?
It doesn't exist.
WH>Do you believe that there is a relationship between sin and suffering?
WH>(Yes/No)Please explain why:
No. See above.
WH>Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? (Yes/No)
No.
WH>If Yes, on what basis do you believe people will be chosen for heaven?
See above.
WH>Is it possible for non-Christians to go to Heaven? (Yes/No)
Not applicable.
WH>Please explain your answer:
They are nonexistent.
WH>Please describe what you think Heaven and Hell are like:
N/A
---
* OLX 2.2 * Born again? No, I don't think my mom would appreciate it.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: LAURA HODGKINS
|To: MIMI MILSTEIN
|Sub: angles
|Date: 15 Apr 96 12:16:44
EID:bafb 208f6200
MSGID: 1:322/746 c3dd11df
-> Hello Laura!
->
-> LAURA HODGKINS wrote in a message to ALL:
->
-> LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is
-> LH> possible to have seen one's guardian angel?
->
-> My mother informs me somebody in her early childhood told her
-> that each person is followed by a guardian angel - and that
-> scared her real badly. She was forever taking quick peeps over her
-> shoulder, and felt an icy horror by the thought of some invisible
-> entity pursuing her. Made her a firm atheist all her life (she
-> is still going strong at 87, the mildest of persons - but NO
-> supernatural stuff for her, thank you).
->
-> I am just an ordinary wishy/washy agnostic, and I am NOT looking
-> for angels.
->
-> Greetings from Mimi
->
-> ...I thought about being born again, but Mom said "no"
->
-> --- timEd 1.01
-> * Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA
-> (5:7107/21)
Guardian angles don't follow a person around, they only come when help
is needed, or a person is in trouble. and even if you were looking for
angels, you wouldn't find one, they usually don't like to appear to
people.
--- Platinum Xpress/Wildcat! v1.1
* Origin: The Caldron BBS : 508-821-9685 (1:322/746)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 322/746 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: LAURA HODGKINS
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: angles
|Date: 15 Apr 96 12:17:34
EID:f867 208f6220
MSGID: 1:322/746 105807f7
-> LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is possible
-> LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
->
-> Yes, I believe there are angels.
-> Yes, I believe it is possible.
-> But no, I think such is very unlikely to be witnessed.
-> Fair enough?
->
->
->
->
-> ... I'm sorry...were the voices in my head bothering you?
-> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
->
->
-> --- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
-> * Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
Why do you think it's not possible to see a person's guardian angel?
--- Platinum Xpress/Wildcat! v1.1
* Origin: The Caldron BBS : 508-821-9685 (1:322/746)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 322/746 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Branham
|Date: 13 Apr 96 14:45:54
EID:158f 208d75a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 3172a961
RJ> Guess what's gonna be the death of me? I acquired a discount
RJ> card at a store called Books-A-Million, which supposedly
RJ> claims that many volumes in its stock. I haven't been in the
RJ> place to look around yet. I'm afraid...very very afraid.
JB>
JB> You should be! We have one here and I've been in it a couple
JB> times. The biggest problem is where to start. They not only have all
JB> those books, but...if they don't have it, they can order it for you.
JB> Luckily for me, they don't take American Express.
JJ's got the right philosophy--that any decent bookstore
should never take you less than one day to browse through.
'Course he's lucky to have a chain of HPB's in his area.
... "Never turn down an opportunity to piss." -- Gen. George Patton
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 13 Apr 96 16:10:11
EID:41eb 208d8140
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 3172a962
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6537a648
JH> Q. How did you first know something was wrong?
JH> A. The way I came awake, I guess.
JH> Q. There was something different about it?
JH> A. Yes, it was like I'd been - oh, thrown off a cliff or
JH> something. You know, as if some violent action woke me
JH> up.
JH> Q. Can you describe what you saw?
JH> A. At first I didn't see anything at all. I just felt this
JH> tremendous sort of panic - I wasn't sure if I was having a
JH> nightmare or not.
JH> Q. What convinced you that you weren't having a nightmare?
JH> A. Her scales.
JH> Q. Her scales. You mean by that serpentine - snakelike -
JH> scales?
JH> A. Yes.
JH> Q. You said "she." These scales were on a woman?
JH> A. Yes.
JH> Q. Would you describe her?
JH> A To be honest, I even hate to think about her. Her skin
JH> was paper white, but it was covered in some places
JH> with the scaly surface I mentioned, and then in other
JH> places with open sores, the kind you'd think a leper would
JH> have or something, And these sores were running with pus.
JH> Q. How old was she?
JH> A. I would estimate around sixty-five or seventy. I can't be
JH> sure.
JH> Q. What else did you first notice about her?
JH> A. She had long, white, scrabbly hair and her eyes were all
JH> red and the inside of her mouth and her gums were green.
JH> Some of her teeth were missing but those she had were very
JH> long and vampirelike.
JH> Q. What about her body?
JH> A. That was the weird thing. Her body itself was firm, you
JH> know, like that of a younger woman.
JH> Q. What did she do?
JH> A She paralyzed me in some way. I saw her walking out of
JH> the shadows to our bed and I sensed what she was going to
JH> do but I couldn't stop her.
JH> Q. Then what?
JH> A. Then she mounted me in the dominant position and she
JH> started riding me. That's the only way I can describe
JH> it.
JH> Q. Was it pleasurable?
JH> A. No, no. In fact, I don't remember feeling anything at
JH> all, other than panic and complete terror.
JH> Q. What was Janet doing during all this?
JH> A. Only after I'd been awake for a time did I realize that
JH> Janet had earlier gone downstairs to sleep on the couch,
JH> which she occasionally does in the hot months.
JH> Q. What was the being doing next?
JH> A. Coming to sexual climax. She just looked at me and smiled
JH> showing those incredible teeth. I tried to look away but
JH> something held my eyes to her. I could tell when she was
JH> having orgasms because she would give little jerks and her
JH> smile would broaden.
JH> Q. She was having orgasms?
JH> A. Oh yes, you could tell that by her expressions and her
JH> movements.
JH> Q. Then what happened?
JH> A. Then she vanished.
JH> Q. Just like that?
JH> A. Just like that. Just vanished. And that's when I noticed
JH> the sticky substance all over me.
JH> Q. Sticky substance?
JH> A. Yes. I suppose you'd have to compare it to semen, the
JH> texture of it, anyway. It was emitted from the creature's
JH> vagina. And I was sore, too.
JH> Q. Sore?
JH> A. Yes, as if I'd had prolonged sex, even though it had been
JH> only a few minutes. But then I began to wonder if I
JH> hadn't passed out during it or something because, as I
JH> said, my genitals were extremely sore.
JH> Q. What happened next?
JH> A. I went into the bathroom and looked myself over. The
JH> fluid on my body had a very pungent odor. I took a shower
JH> and washed it off as quickly as I could. I had to scrub
JH> very hard.
Kewl. Bad alien porn.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 13 Apr 96 16:11:24
EID:9a0e 208d8160
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 3172a963
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 653ed514
JH> Maria's while I'm up there to get a real goddam sub. (As for
JH> the limpdick Southern excuse for a sub called a Poor Boy, the
JH> less said the better.)
I can show you to at least three po-boy shops within a 7-
minute drive from my house that'll dispel that notion.
Sure, you'll get ripped off most places in New Orleans,
but we've got a handful of shops here that'll load down
about 16" of bread with enough stuff so you can go two to
three meals on it.
... and the dog walks up to the tree...a-a-and...he...PIDDLES ON IT!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 15 Apr 96 12:13:34
EID:d666 208f61a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 3172a964
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 16f0c326
MM> Was there perhaps something he misunderstood? Or shall we accept
MM> that mooses 2000 years ago were totally stiff-legged? Or was JC
MM> enough of an author to take artistic liberties?
MM> I have the same problem with "The Truth" in all these manuscripts.
Rah, rah!
MM> PS: I don't believe in Homer either! He never existed :-)
Au contraire. He did, but it wasn't that Homer listed on
the book cover--it was someone else with the same name.
... * Origin: MESSIAH! NETWORK: Killing People For Fun and Prophet!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Ralph Jansen
|Sub: Omni-impotence
|Date: 15 Apr 96 13:08:09
EID:2d88 208f6900
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 3172a965
REPLY: 1:398/1.0 316ff510
MK> the concept of evil? Since Lucifer was God's
MK> creation, Lucifer thus was/is essentially OF God
MK> originally, so the capacity for evil must have
MK> existed also in God himself. Thats about enough,
RJ>
RJ> First of all, where does it say that He yearns to be worshipped. I
RJ> mean, in an insecure way. If you were a god, and you created someone,
RJ> and they go worship a rock because they believe it created them, how
RJ> would you feel? He has every right to have all of His creation
RJ> worship Him. He made it all, and He is God
RJ> Ralph Jansen
Whimpering cur, you worship an 800-lb. gorilla. You are
the loam that lets the seeds of fascism flourish. You must
really hate yourself a great deal to think this way, and you
probably take it out on your family.
... Religious error: (A)tone (R)epent (I)mmolate?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 15 Apr 96 14:47:29
EID:6b94 208f75e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 3172a966
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 65587cc6
JH> On Apr 03 00:31 96, Rob Burcham of 1:280/26 wrote:
RB> Lammon is neither theist or nontheist. He's a dickhead.
JH> Orthodox or Reformed?
Well, I thought that big purple yarmulke looked a
little suspicious...
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3828/1 396/2 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Bill Arnold
|To: All
|Sub: Zionist-Neo-Nazis
|Date: 15 Apr 96 16:26:00
EID:4c15 208f8340
PID: RA 2.5.g1 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 5711161a
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
Pray for the Gaza ghetto, and the victims of the holocaust in Lebanon.
---
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/319 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: LAURA HODGKINS
|Sub: angles
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:40
EID:8ba8 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edb6
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh LAURA HODGKINS angles wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is possible to
LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
I do not so believe. Is it possible? Certainly so.
... He who laughs at a Klingon, never laughs again.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jerry Eakle
|Sub: Christians
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:40
EID:c282 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edb7
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jerry Eakle Christians wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JE> that and the Catholics are the ones I would say are self centered.
JE> After all they feel that Catholicism is the only religion there is.
I
Needless generalization. I know two members of the Catholic church who do
not "feel" any such thing. In fact, I know several Catholics who know that
their religion isn't the only one.
... Therapy is good, but screaming obsceneties is cheaper.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Renee Deyoe
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:40
EID:3717 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edb8
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Renee Deyoe Re: Question wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MC> Recently a pyramid was built in Memphis. It is similar to the
MC> pyramid on the dollar-bill, except in place of the eye, the top is
MC> blue. I understand that there is occult symbolism there. Would anyone
MC> like to elaborate?
PS> Yes. You're a fucking nut who sees conspiracies everywhere in a feeble
PS> effort to disguise the fact that you're really a worthless bag of shit
PS> who couldn't get a clue if they were free.
RD> I see no religious debate here..so either this is in the wrong place
No, you don't. The reason being is that "Mark Craig" is *not* into
religion debate, but in dropping little notes like the one above to all
of us here and then refusing to stick around for discussion.
RD> and my mail tosser is wacky or this Preston Simpson is just being
RD> nasty..I think that he could have found a better way to answer this
Well, yes. I *am* being nasty. I can be a crude, rotten, evil-minded,
sadistic guy when it is necessary. Was it necessary above? Depends. I got
a kick out of laughing at him, and he gets a kick out of being laughed
at. Sick? Yes. But enjoyable.
RD> than to be such a jerk..you think...I thought this was a religious
Yes, I probably could have found a better way to answer it. But when the
target of my missives insists on proclaiming himself to be an irrevocably
backward, acephalic moron, I cannot help but show him that he is indeed
correct.
RD> debate echo, not a Flame echo..am I wrong? Please correct me if I am.
It's both. Enjoy.
... Famous last words: "Dragon? What dragon?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:41
EID:b761 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edb9
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Al Schroeder YOUR DAILY MURDER wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AS> I hold my son's allowance over his head like Damocles' sword--or his
AS> bedtime, which we move earlier if he misbehaves. (This is the
AS> speaking son. For the other two, time outs are about the only
AS> effective thing.)
Effective. I've never really fully agreed with the idea of smacking a kid
around to teach a lesson, but I do think that sometimes, it's the only way
to reinforce a point, albeit a rare occurrence.
PS> Well, yes and no. I wish that the Allies *hadn't* had to do that, and
PS> they might not have--but the war would have gone on much longer and
PS> in the end would have cost a hell of a lot more lives.
AS> Yes. That's one reason I'm not a pacifist in Marilyn's absolutist
AS> sense. There are times where I think limited controlled violence
AS> prevents greater violence. Schwartzkopf once talked how war was the
AS> art of using the minimum amount of violence to achieve the ends you
AS> are going for.
Heinlein mentions it too in _Starship Troopers_. He has one of the recruits
for the Mobile Infantry ask why it's necessary for them to fight when they
could just nuke the planet from orbit and go home, and the response is that
the MI is the arm of restraint. Controlled, precise, "surgical" violence
to show that more *could* have been done were it so desired.
AS> Well, it SOUNDS plausible, anyway.... It's a rationalization, but
AS> a permissable one given what we know of the cultures.
PS> I was only there for 11 days, but it was enough to make me start thinking
PS> of "The Great Escape" and Steve McQueen and his ball and glove.
AS> I think that must be a very scary feeling. I've never been confined,
AS> myself, in jail or an institution.
It was not made fully clear to me exactly what I was getting into when I
signed the papers--I was still rather in shock from the prospect of having
almost killed myself in a classroom. When the door to my room closed, then
it sank in exactly what I'd done. Not fun.
AS> One thing about the women as a rule here, very few are shrinking
AS> violets.
Certainly so.
AS> However, I NEVER lose my temper...waitasecond. Where's my Coke! I
AS> had a Coke here a minute ago...WHERE'S MY COKE!!!!!
AS> Sorry. Caffeine withdrawal.
That's excusable. Caffeine deprivation is not something to be tolerated.
... "Scientific progress goes 'BOINK' ??" Hobbes
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BOOK REPLACEMENTS
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:41
EID:2f0e 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edba
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Al Schroeder BOOK REPLACEMENTS wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AS> Although sometimes I feel like "A fool and his money..."
AS> Remember, my hardbacks are intact. That still gives me lots more
AS> books than most people have...
PS> True, but it is sometimes necessary to go the extra mile.
AS> I looked at Brian Kolacy's home page for the first time last night,
AS> and saw he had links to Terry Pratchett stuff...
Cool. I'll have to check it out sometime. You ever going to get into the
IRC channel?
... Cthulhu/Ghatanothoa in 96! Screw the environment!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:41
EID:eb91 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edbb
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Al Schroeder A FAIR & JUST GOD wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Or maybe Heinlein knew too much and was simply disguising it
to
PS> keep the Inquisition off his back.
AS> If Nehemiah Scudder achieves national prominance, I may be off to
AS> Canada...
Go to the Pole. Canada may not be far enough.
PS> Unless the criminals took the time to keep them well-maintained, which
PS> most criminals do not.
AS> True. And remember homeowners would probably keep their old ones,
AS> and the same thing applies.
Yes indeedy. Father most certainly would *not* give up most of his firearms.
AS> Swords are more dashing, or something. Of course, I have been
AS> condintioned by visions of D'Artagnan, John Carter, Errol Flynn and
AS> Basil Rathbone.
True, and the reality can often be much different--a swordfight can be over
in a matter of seconds if one fencer has even a slight advantage over the
other.
AS> Where the fight went to the quick and the skilled, not the big and
AS> bulky or those with a steadier aim.
Having to acquire that degree of skill sometimes seems to enforce a certain
sense of morality on its wielder, but not always. Kind of like the stories
about martial arts experts who teach their students first aid before they'll
teach them how to fight.
AS> ... I don't have an attitude problem--it's supposed to be like this
AS> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
AS> -!- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
AS> ! Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
... "It's not my fault!" - Han Solo
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Treachery
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:41
EID:a015 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edbc
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Sean McCullough Treachery wgah'nagl fhtagn.
> MG> Are you trolling us? This was typed into a different node in your
net
> MG> about 20 minutes after your last post to the other node.
> Wasn't me. I couldn't type something that asinine without remembering
> what made me do it.
SM> Been drinking that Jim Beam again, have we??!!??
Good gods, no.
... I tried to drown my problems but they can swim.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:42
EID:a30f 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edbd
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh J.J. Hitt False Prophets wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Many thanks. I doubt anything will come of it, but I may
PS> send him some amusing missives some day.
JH> Oh, I feel there is a genuine need for a "Who's Who In the
JH> Racist Right". I snag every little tid-bit I can about these
JH> characters. It would be a deadly mistake to think that
JH> these clowns will just go away if we ignore them long enough.
Definitely so. Rather like ignoring a malignant tumor.
... AD&D Quote: More hit points than you can possibly imagine.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Meteor Dust-Bunny
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:42
EID:8b31 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edbe
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Elliott Finesse Meteor Dust-Bunny wgah'nagl fhtagn.
> And combustion doesn't give off phlogiston as was once thought. So wha
> Science is a self-correcting process; religion is not and therefore
> tends to stagnate where science learns from its mistakes and advances.
EF> Jerry is wrong about "what was once thought" in any event. I can
EF> repost the refutation or e-mail it if you didn't see it and want a
cop
Seen it, but thanks for the offer.
EF> Yup. In this particular case I believe the gene for the color change
EF> already existed in the moth population. So all that was necessary was
EF> that it be selected for.
True. The potential for a lot of change exists, but it doesn't usually
get put into motion unless the environment starts selecting for a particular
feature.
EF> "To show you how efficient natural selection can be, imagine that you
EF> want to have the entire Bible typed by a wild monkey. What are the
EF> chances that such a monkey, typing at random, will come up with the
EF> Bible neatly typed without a single error?
The old 747-from-junkyard-via-tornado scheme.
EF> "Suppose, however, that I introduce a control (the environment) that
EF> wipes out any wrong letter the monkey may type. Typing away at one
EF> letter per second and assuming an average number of 13 errors per
EF> letter (half of 26), the monkey will produce the Bible in 13 x
EF> 6,000,000 seconds = 2.5 years.
The creationists often miss this tiny but important fact--the environment
discards the unsuccessful examples.
... Forest fires prevent bears.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: A Waste of Gravity
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:42
EID:31db 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edbf
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Elliott Finesse A Waste of Gravity wgah'nagl fhtagn.
> JG> I'm not afraid, I just can't even imagine my god doing that. It w
> JG> go against everything I believe my god stands for.
> Fine and dandy. But what if he did tell you to kill your mother?
EF> Good luck arguing with this simp. He is the most dishonest dork I've
EF> ran across in this echo - and that's saying something.
True, but you didn't encounter Staal, did you?
... Cthulhu Wrangler: Marlon Perkins.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Bill Arnold
|Sub: Hebes
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:42
EID:466f 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edc0
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Bill Arnold Hebes wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BA> Help Marlon Brando! Do your good deed for today: call a "hymie" a
BA> "kike." -!-
Stop masturbating in public.
... Bill's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Adolph Hitler
|Sub: Vermin!
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:42
EID:31ac 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edc1
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Adolph Hitler Vermin! wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AH> The Jew is like a virus: once it infects a nation, the host dies.
No; the willfully ignorant, unnecessarily bigoted, and exceedingly stupid
such as yourself are like virii, save that they have an honest reason for
existing.
... Your wealth of ignorance astounds me.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Ken Peck
|Sub: Chrysostom's pasha homily
|Date: 15 Apr 96 20:45:43
EID:66f3 208fa5a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3172edc2
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Ken Peck Chrysostom's pasha homily wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Ah, I have fond memories of Easter. My mother forcing me to get
PS> baptized, spending a couple of hours in a bathroom with a knife trying
PS> to kill myself, all sorts of fun things.
KP> I'm sorry that you find your mother's love for you so depressing. You
My mother is and continues to be a lying shitbag of a religious fanatic.
The less I have to do with her, the better.
PS> Then why do some Christians insist that people like Gandhi are going
PS> to hell?
KP> Perhaps 'some Christians' like 'some non-Christians' can be mistaken
KP> about some things they don't know anything about.
Then I'll ask you: Is Gandhi going to hell?
KP> He that was taken by Death has annihilated it!
PS> People still die, you acephalic dweeb.
KP> Yes, and rise to a new life.
Even the ones who go to hell?
... Against logic there is no armor like ignorance...
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Bill Arnold
|To: All
|Sub: The Apocalypse
|Date: 15 Apr 96 22:04:00
EID:36ca 208fb080
PID: RA 2.5.g1 22754
MSGID: 1:123/318 57116564
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Real Christians "HATE" evil! We war not against flesh and blood, but
principalities and powers -- Romans 8. The Jew that accepts Christ
as Lord is my brother. He is to be esteemed, as he is the original part
of the Vine: I have been grafted on. Until he becomes a Christian: he
is the antichrist (1st.jn), and a child of the devil -- jn.8:44.
Wakeup you hypocrites! Jesus died for you. What are you going to do
for him? The Bible says that he has no place for cowards in his kingdom.
Are you going to be a soldier for Christ, or for the Luciferian New
World Order?
At the end of the 1000 years Satan is released, and seduces the
nations of the earth, prior to the end of the world -- jn.20:7-15,
ez.38,39,40.
---
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/90 1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Just my imagination?
|Date: 15 Apr 96 21:11:16
EID:168a 208fa960
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6564baf6
REPLY: 1:124/9005 316fc1cf
SQ> Snakes don't have the vocal apparatus to speak. Global floods
SQ> are physical impossibilities. Men do not walk on water, nor do
SQ> they chemically convert water to wine. They do not rise from the
SQ> dead either. The list of logical impossibilities goes on and on
SQ> and on.
I've pointed this out to Mike, but he has not said anything about it. I'm
sure that he can come up with some tripe like "Those are PHYSICAL impossibilities".
His god can do the one but not the other.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 15 Apr 96 21:14:51
EID:25c5 208fa9c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6564c529
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 316e6cdc
LW> Steve, perhaps you can succeed where others fail. Answer this
LW> question: How does walking into a solid brick wall demonstrate
LW> that reality is material?
You do the experiment. You first drive your Maserati a 100 mph past a point
in space where you percieve there to be nothing. Then you drive your car
at the same speed through the same point in space where there is now the
brick wall. The result will likely be different.
This is reality. The collision vs the non collision.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 15 Apr 96 09:00:00
EID:ce32 208f4800
On 12 Apr 96 11:17pm, SEAN MCCULLOUGH wrote to BECKE JONES:
>>>> As far as the dirty deeds, how do you send netmail? I'll fill you
in
>>>> on 'em..
>> SM> Ask your Sysop how to do that. And I'd appreciate a Netmail message
>> SM> from you.
>> Will do...I'll ask Craig how to do it sometime this week (more likely,
>> next time I sign on I'll leave him a message)
SM> Hey there, Becke!!
SM> Seems my Uplink at 1:128/203 was down for a week while the Sysop was
SM> working in New York!! Thus, EVERYTHING'S running a week late -- my
SM> apologies!!
No problemo. Fido has been very erratic here as well. Not that many messages,
and some days none at all. I'm getting the feeling I've been missing some
stuff I shouldn't be missing (i.e. replies to conversations that I haven't
seen in the first place)...Take your time, hon...I'll be here.
>> I'll look for it...will it appear in my mail packet the same as a
>> regular message would?
SM> With the sole exception that it would appear in a messagebase called
SM> "NetMail"; and you would be asked for more information (my FidoNet
SM> address) than an EchoMail reply requires.
I asked him (the sysop) about it and he's working on it. He said that I
couldn't have a DIRECT net mail connection (because of the l/d charges),
but
that if I can wait until Wednesday or so, he would give me routed netmail,
which is just as private, but takes a bit longer, I suppose...
>>>> How have YOU been? What's new in your neck of the woods?
>> SM> I have been well, Wotan gratias. I started at Apple Computer's
Fountain
>> SM> facility in December, as a temporary agency worker. The assignment
is
>> SM> supposed to last 9 months. Before I'd worked there six weeks, the
bad
>> SM> news about Apple started coming out........ [sigh]
>> Ick. And I thought Apples were obsolete...The computer industry,
>> although
>> lucrative, requires constant education to keep up with the latest
>> technologies...I'm thinking about taking some classes to learn how to
>> design web pages. There's a big demand for independent contractors to
do
>> that kind of stuff around here...
SM> Hmmmm..... I'm just gearing up for HTML work myself. (Try buying RAM
SM> lately?? SHUDDER!! OUCH!! :-)
Actually, yes.. I found out soon enough that my wallet can't handle it
at
this point...I only have a 4MB system....which is screaming for 4 more MB
that I can't afford right now..
SM> If there's a largescale demand for such work by independents where you
SM> are, maybe I'd be better off looking where YOU are......
Heck, hon...the classified section here in Cols. is the size of a small
phone
book. Jobs are not hard to come by here...especially computer jobs.. Everyone
and anyone in Columbus wants a web page, but don't know how to design it...
There's big bucks in this business, and I, for one, would like a piece of
that pie..
SM> [re Gwenny:]
>> I haven't seen her around here lately...we need more of her imput in
>> here, especially when it comes to 'ole Jim G..
SM> Jim IS a Germ. :-)
Tell me something I didn't know..
--Becke
... SATANIC (say tan' ik) adj. Anything a fundy likes, but won't admit
i
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 184
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Steve Quarrella/valencia
|Sub: NEW HOLYSMOKE FILES!
|Date: 15 Apr 96 09:00:00
EID:0793 208f4800
Couldn't quote the message, cause it's too long for my editor to handle,
but
it was a file list..
Just wanted to say that I DO have a picture of myself to contribute to those
of the HS'ers, but I don't have a scanner...so if anyone has a scanner,
and
wants to take the time and energy out to scan it into a .jpg or .gif file,
I
will send them a hard copy snail mail and it would be greatly appreciated.
As far as the rest of the files go, how would one go about downloading them?
(i.e. Where do I have to call?)
Becke
... When your up to your nose in it, don't open your MOUTH!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 185
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Ken Peck
|Sub: CHRYSOSTOM'S PASHA HO
|Date: 15 Apr 96 09:00:00
EID:84a6 208f4800
On 13 Apr 96 12:42am, KEN PECK wrote to PRESTON SIMPSON:
-=>> Quoting Preston Simpson to Ken Peck <=-
KP>> If anyone be devout and a lover of God, enjoy this beautiful and
KP>> radiant Feast of Feasts!
PS>> Ah, I have fond memories of Easter. My mother forcing me to get
PS>> baptized, spending a couple of hours in a bathroom with a knife trying
PS>> to kill myself, all sorts of fun things.
KP> I'm sorry that you find your mother's love for you so depressing. You
KP> will not find health until you learn to accept love and to forgive
KP> those who may have wronged you. Isn't it strange that you have more
KP> difficulty accepting the fact that you are loved than others have in
KP> loving you?
If you consider forcing an unwanted belief system down Preston's throat
to
the point of attempting suicide "love", I'd hate to see what your idea of
hate is. You don't HURT the ones you love, plain and simple. As for the
part
about "forgiveness", more often than not, "forgiving" someone leads them
to
believe they can get away with the same shit again.
Becke
... Sacrilege: "telling an idiot the truth".
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 185
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: "NO TRUE CHRISTIAN...
|Date: 15 Apr 96 09:00:00
EID:cb92 208f4800
On 12 Apr 96 06:47pm, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
JG> this is what Karl Schneider had to say to Jim Germiquet about Re: "No
JG> True Christ JG>made you whole". There is power in faith.
KS>> There is also power in delusion.
JG> You are absolutely correct !
JG> Now which power would you choose ? The power of faith that helps you
JG> win the victory.
JG> Or the power of delusion which hides the path of victory from you ?
And what if the faith IS the delusion?
Becke
... Quick! Close your mind! Something blasphemous might get in.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 185
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: ANIMAL ABORTIONS
|Date: 15 Apr 96 09:00:00
EID:0893 208f4800
On 12 Apr 96 12:18pm, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to SUE ARMSTRONG:
JG> this is what Sue Armstrong had to say to Jim Germiquet about animal
JG> abortions...
SA>> lone voice in the wilderness, Jim mournfully howled out "animal
SA>> abortions"
LB>> Like claiming that it was a mistake to let women get so uppity you
LB>> have to backhand them?
JG>
JG>> I have never backhanded any woman in my life. I said that was what
JG>> some men used to control women. In fact I was always taught that you
JG>> should never hit a lady. But then of course that was in the days when
JG>> women were ladies not like today when many women are just men without
JG>> penises. They have no respect for their own femaleness and wish they
JG>> were men.
SA>> What the hell is "femaleness"? Not wanting a say in what goes on?
JG> Femaleness is the femininity of women 1) physically as child barers
JG> and nurturers 2) Socially as child nurturers and homemakers 3)
JG> Mentally as a different being than the male of the species, with
JG> different perceptions and outlooks and qualities which are wll
JG> recognized by psychologists and other professionals. This has nothing
JG> to do with not having a say in what goes on. It has nothing to do with
JG> being inferior to men. This is what has been perceived and so women
no
JG> longer respect the role that their gender best suits them for , in
JG> favor of taking on what they see as the more glamorous and superior
JG> role of the male.
What you are forgetting is that it was the "men" who created these gender
roles for women in the first place. Men can be just as capable of these
acts
(nurturer, homemaker, etc.). Just because women are escaping the restraints
that men have put on them in the past doesn't make them any less a woman...
Becke
... God's hellish fear... how does one resist science? - Nietzsche
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 185
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 15 Apr 96 09:00:00
EID:c568 208f4800
On 11 Apr 96 04:02am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to BECKE JONES:
AS>> Too bad he couldn't do the same for you. Now, he's your ex. Was he
AS>> ever jailed or anything for what he did to you?
BJ>> I now believe he started the whole relationships with ulterior motives,
and
BJ>> that he never sincerely cared for me in the first place. As far as
being
BJ>> jailed, I did press charges against him for the abuse, but he skipped
out
AS> on
BJ>> court on more than one occasion. The one time he did get arrested,
he was
AS> out
BJ>> on bail in 2 hours. He does have active warrants for all this, though...
AS> Uh...do you know where he is now? He's not on the lam and looking for
AS> you or somethign equally dire, is he?
Last I heard, he had moved to Michigan...Still too close for comfort.
However, I haven't heard from him or seen him, and that's a good sign. As
for
looking for me, our last conversation (about 8 months back) entailed him
threatening to hunt me down if I didn't go back to him. And I do know for
a
fact that he has been pestering my friends back in Jersey for info about
where I am now...Hopefully they're smart enough not to disclose my
whereabouts...
AS>> Wonderful. How is she now?
BJ>> She's on medication for depression and in state's care for being a
AS> juvenille
BJ>> delinquent....
AS> This sounds like a Stephen King novel, except Stephen King would
AS> have a monster gobble up your ex at the end like candy.
I only wish..
AS>> Look, quite frankly, I probably would've. If I were sleeping to
AS>> someone mistreating me that badly, I would've done it without much
AS>> compunction, even though my religion forbids me to...because I think
AS>> it would be a case of self-defense. That's HORRIBLE. And quite
AS>> frankly, it makes me glad I was born a male. Yes, males can be
AS>> victimized too, but it is not as pervasive a thing. If I had been
in
AS>> your situation and could have thought up a fairly nondetectable way
to
AS>> kill him, I wouldn't have hesitated much, any more than if I had been
AS>> tied up and put in a dungeon, if I kill my jailer while escaping,
I
AS>> won't lose any sleep over it. But talk is cheap. Maybe I really
AS>> wouldn't have done it in real life.
BJ>> I considered it a few times. I would watch him sleep and think about
BJ>> smothering him to death. Or, knowing that he gets drunk every night,
I
BJ>> thought about putting a shoe or something on the stairs so he would
fall
AS> and
BJ>> break his neck. Or, on his many suicide attempts (for attention, no
doubt),
AS> I
BJ>> would consider not calling 911 until after he was dead...But I never
went
BJ>> through with it, although I was very tempted to many times. I truly
believe
BJ>> that if he were there when I came home that last time, I WOULD have
done
AS> it,
BJ>> without any regret at all.
AS> You may be more compassionate than I. If that SOB did that to me if
I
AS> was a woman, and then tried to committ suicide, I would have said,
AS> "Good riddence!" and gone for a walk.
At that point, I was still pretty naive and had enough compassion left for
him that I couldn't go through with it...But, if the situation happened
now,
I would probably be the one handing him the pills and water, telling him,
"Drink up, asshole!"
AS>> David Rice, Becke Jones, Becke Jones, David Rice....(luckily Quentin
AS>> has a girlfriend now...) I dunno, Becke. I think most men are not
AS>> like that, but having been burned so baldy once, I'D be real
AS>> hesistant about getting involved again, in your case. And that's
a
AS>> lonely way to live.
BJ>> I haven't really spoken to David much...but he seems like
a
AS> really
BJ>> intelligent, friendly guy...As far as relationships go, I'm in a huge
BJ>> mindfuck right now. I _want_ to get involved with someone, but I'm
a lot
AS> more
BJ>> cynnical now than I was a few years back. But if the right guy comes
along,
BJ>> somehow, I think I'll know...and I will go for it.. I know myself a
bit
BJ>> better now, and know what I want out of life...that helps...
AS> Actually, this medium might be good one for meeting people. For
AS> instance, you know the texture of my mind, as I do yours, from
AS> corresponding back and forth. My wife and I started that way, she
AS> saw my name in a Superman comics lettercol, started writing me, I
AS> wrote her back, it branched into much larger things than comics, that
AS> went on for six months, and then she came up to visit her best friend
AS> in Nashville (Barb went to college here, but NOOOO, we couldn't have
AS> met THEN, when it was logical...) and we met, and some six months
AS> after THAT we were married. So I either knew Barb six months before
I
AS> got married or one year before I got married, depending on how you
AS> look at it. Anybody can have sex; but true affection, love, etc. is
AS> more of mind than body. If the minds agree, sexual attraction usually
AS> follows. If the minds disagree, sexual attraction happens, but is
AS> fleeting.
That's basically how I met my roommate. No romance here, but we're the best
of friends...
As for sex, I've done the casual sex thing, and it's really lost its novelty.
It's been over a year since I've had _any_ sex at all...Granted, I have
my
physical needs, but they can be taken care of...It's the mental and emotional
intimacy that I'm craving now...
Becke
... I have erased the thin line between genius and insanity.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 185
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 15 Apr 96 10:39:28
EID:163d 208f54e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655ef1d0
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 31701e9a
On Apr 13 07:18 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
DM> The turkey baster was not developed until the turkey had
DM> been invented . . .
And I somehow doubt that they have yet invented the male who
can FILL a turkey baster.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Poor Little White Boy
|Date: 15 Apr 96 10:45:46
EID:5ea0 208f55a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655f1588
Recently you posted a message moaning and bitching about how there
is no legislation specifically protecting the rights of young white
males.
I have GREAT NEWS FOR YOU!!!
You don't have to wait until you are a senior citizen!
You can take advantage of the American's with Disabilities Act
TODAY! Cut off both of your fucking legs above the knee.
There are also many great programs and advantages (like living on a
fixed income) that you could take advantage of if you were blind.
You also get a nifty dog.
Pluck out both of your goddam eyeballs. If anyone asks you why
you have done this, tell them Jesus told you to.
(He did. Matt 5:29)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: BOY SCOTS FINALLY LOSE O
|Date: 15 Apr 96 11:01:56
EID:17cf 208f5820
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655f26ea
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3416ebb5
On Apr 14 00:19 96, Sean McCullough of 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org wrote:
>> The world is bad enough with Boy Scouts, we have no need
>> for Boy Scots.
SM> Aww, shuddup and eat yer haggis.........
oh, alright.... but I have to wash them down with this shit?
I'd rather have a coke.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 15 Apr 96 11:20:32
EID:269a 208f5a80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 655f62ca
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3167ba29
On Apr 06 18:07 96, Sue Armstrong of 1:246/15 wrote:
SA> All religions put forth this concept, in their own ways. The
SA> karmic wheel of Hinduism is simply one of the more extreme
SA> examples - do badly in this life, and come back as a worm. If
SA> you make a good worm, you might get to move "up", and be a bee
SA> next time 'round.
We've got a few users here who ought to come back as a nematode
living inside the worm's butt.
Hmmm... wonder what would happen if all forms of protozoic life
lived such exemplary lives that they all, simulataneously, made
the jump to human?
How can I get ahold of a Hindu (or a Hindont) theologian so I can
pester them about it? Maybe if I chant "My Momma is a Brahma" a
few thousand times one will appear for me.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: hi
|Date: 15 Apr 96 17:08:39
EID:cae9 208f8900
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65628f75
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31723911
On Apr 15 11:18 96, Lynda Bustilloz of 1:109/601 wrote:
JH>> God forbid (figure of speach, folks) that a person miss a
JH>> day of revenue production on my behalf. Maybe we can make
JH>> it an evening diner?
LB> No, actually lunch works better for me. It's a bit of a
LB> drive, and this way I'm not trying to make the trip home
LB> late at night. And no day's revenue will be lost, as I'm
LB> working the Saturday to make up for it. It's been a long
LB> time since I used a day off work to do something more
LB> exciting than catching up on laundry -- I'm looking forward
LB> to it!
Groovy. Now all we need are the rondevous details like time and
place. The lobby of Don's workplace would be one option. Or we
could make reservations at the eatery (in the name of Steve Winter,
of course) and meet there.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Question
|Date: 15 Apr 96 17:29:43
EID:56b5 208f8ba0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6562b446
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 31688515
On Apr 07 23:16 96, Mark Craig of 1:123/318 wrote:
MC> Recently a pyramid was built in Memphis. It is similar to
MC> the pyramid on the dollar-bill, except in place of the eye,
MC> the top is blue. I understand that there is occult
MC> symbolism there. Would anyone like to elaborate?
If we explained it, it wouldn't be occult.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 15 Apr 96 23:58:36
EID:358f 208fbf40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65664893
REPLY: 1:3828/1.0 3172a962
On Apr 13 16:10 96, Robert Jackson of 1:3828/1 wrote:
JH>> A. Yes, as if I'd had prolonged sex, even though it had
JH>> been only a few minutes. But then I began to wonder if I
JH>> hadn't passed out during it or something because, as I
JH>> said, my genitals were extremely sore.
JH>> Q. What happened next?
JH>> A. I went into the bathroom and looked myself over. The
JH>> fluid on my body had a very pungent odor. I took a shower
JH>> and washed it off as quickly as I could. I had to scrub
JH>> very hard.
RJ> Kewl. Bad alien porn.
I'm convinced that for many of the flaming true believers their
abduction fantasies are the closest thing they have to a sex
life.
Freud would have loved our day and age.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Question
|Date: 16 Apr 96 00:04:48
EID:56b5 20900080
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6566522d
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 31688515
On Apr 07 23:16 96, Mark Craig of 1:123/318 wrote:
MC> Recently a pyramid was built in Memphis. It is similar to
MC> the pyramid on the dollar-bill, except in place of the eye,
MC> the top is blue. I understand that there is occult
MC> symbolism there. Would anyone like to elaborate?
Haven't you ever noticed how "BLUE" rhymes with "JEW" ?
Think about it...
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Shoot him Jimmy! - Angel
|Date: 16 Apr 96 00:08:52
EID:a9b0 20900100
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6566e7f0
On Apr 12 12:34 96, DAVID RICE of 1:124/9005 wrote:
DR> The only way to decrease violence is a MASSIVE indoctrination of
DR> ETHICS and personal responsibility that every citizen must be
DR> subjected to. Our society must also cease preparing for war and
DR> cease using violence as entertainment.
DR> Naturally none of these things will occur, therefore we
DR> must learn to live with insane levels of violence.
I'm inclined to concur. Our civilization has passed the point
of diminishing returns.
DR> I propose that every hand gun owner in America be denied the
DR> right to purchase or have in his or her possession alcohol: if a
DR> person wants to drink, they must not own a hand gun; if they
DR> want to own a hand gun, they must not buy, store, or drink
DR> alcohol. The only way this law could be inforced is by a
DR> Nazi-like Gestapo system, complete with storm troopers,
DR> informers, rewards to informants, and complete, total revocation
DR> of every citizen's right to privacy.
I have a simpler solution. Part of the attraction of firearms is
that they are penis surrogates. Insist that such weapons be pink
in color, decorated with bows and heavily perfumed and gun
ownership will be reduced by 50 percent in the first month.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: HEAVENLY FATHER
|Date: 16 Apr 96 01:13:30
EID:3f22 209009a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6566f13e
________ +-------------+
| | | Up yours, |
| &@@@@& | / | Tommy. |
l@@@@@@@@@l / +-------------+
l& x x &l /
l( V )l /
jll( \___/ )lll
jlll (VVVVV)|lllj
\\\! jjj| |VVV| |jjjj !///
\@@@____________| / V \|______________@@@/
| \ *\ / \ /* /|
| \ \______/ \_______/ / |
|_____\_______ , , __________/___|
{ }
{ }
\ /
| |
|\ -|- /|
|/ \|
( )
{ (| |) }
{ | | }
{ U }
| . /|
{ | } |
|\ \ | |
| \ \| |
| U\* \ |
| U\ \ |
| UUU |
| |
| |
|________|
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: BRANHAM THREE
|Date: 16 Apr 96 02:05:28
EID:97ae 209010a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65676b4e
REPLY: 1:3828/1.0 316eaa17
On Apr 12 13:51 96, Robert Jackson of 1:3828/1 wrote:
AS>> SUIRRELS ARE CREATED
AS>> [Image]
JH>> POOF!
JH>> (\__/) .~~~~~. ))
JH>> /O O ./ .'
JH>> {O__, \ {
JH>> / . . ) \
JH>> || '-' \ } ))
JH>> .( _( )_.'
JH>> '---.~_ _ _&
RJ> What's invisible and smells like acorns?
I've no idea. A squirrel fart?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Comet
|Date: 16 Apr 96 02:27:03
EID:6345 20901360
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65679d5e
* Original To : All, 1:30873/2
* Original From: John Powell, 1:261/1201
* Original Area: BAMA
* Original Date: Apr 07 23:25
* Forwarded on by J.J. Hitt of 1:106/9788.2
* Originally By: Dan Dubrick
* Originally To: All
* Originally Re: 4\02 Positions for Hale-Bopp at ten-day intervals
* Original Area: NASA News And Press Releases
* Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12 OS/2
Tue, April 2, 1996
Positions for Hale-Bopp at ten-day intervals:
Date RA declination r delta mag
-!-- -- ----------- - ----- ---
03 Apr 1996 19h43m11.07s -19 29' 54.4" 4.838 4.923 9.0
13 Apr 1996 19h44m50.44s -18 45' 44.5" 4.739 4.655 8.8
23 Apr 1996 19h45m05.83s -18 00' 12.0" 4.639 4.387 8.5
03 May 1996 19h43m44.72s -17 13' 09.2" 4.538 4.122 8.3
13 May 1996 19h40m34.58s -16 24' 25.8" 4.436 3.866 8.0
23 May 1996 19h35m23.07s -15 33' 50.1" 4.333 3.625 7.8
02 Jun 1996 19h28m02.54s -14 41' 06.2" 4.229 3.403 7.5
12 Jun 1996 19h18m31.85s -13 46' 03.2" 4.125 3.207 7.2
22 Jun 1996 19h06m59.41s -12 48' 46.5" 4.019 3.041 7.0
02 Jul 1996 18h53m48.72s -11 49' 46.0" 3.912 2.910 6.7
12 Jul 1996 18h39m36.14s -10 50' 08.1" 3.805 2.816 6.5
22 Jul 1996 18h25m09.17s - 9 51' 34.2" 3.696 2.759 6.3
01 Aug 1996 18h11m20.04s - 8 55' 56.7" 3.586 2.737 6.1
11 Aug 1996 17h58m54.24s - 8 04' 55.1" 3.475 2.744 6.0
21 Aug 1996 17h48m27.20s - 7 19' 30.1" 3.363 2.774 5.8
31 Aug 1996 17h40m19.84s - 6 39' 45.8" 3.250 2.820 5.6
10 Sep 1996 17h34m39.09s - 6 05' 00.7" 3.136 2.874 5.5
20 Sep 1996 17h31m23.95s - 5 33' 56.0" 3.020 2.930 5.3
30 Sep 1996 17h30m26.20s - 5 04' 45.3" 2.903 2.980 5.2
10 Oct 1996 17h31m34.88s - 4 35' 33.9" 2.784 3.021 5.0
20 Oct 1996 17h34m39.42s - 4 04' 16.4" 2.665 3.047 4.7
30 Oct 1996 17h39m28.34s - 3 28' 40.0" 2.544 3.054 4.5
09 Nov 1996 17h45m52.62s - 2 46' 30.1" 2.422 3.041 4.2
19 Nov 1996 17h53m45.47s - 1 55' 15.4" 2.298 3.004 3.9
29 Nov 1996 18h03m01.17s - 0 52' 09.3" 2.174 2.943 3.6
09 Dec 1996 18h13m38.36s + 0 25' 57.2" 2.048 2.857 3.2
19 Dec 1996 18h25m39.04s + 2 02' 58.8" 1.922 2.746 2.7
29 Dec 1996 18h39m09.52s + 4 03' 37.8" 1.795 2.611 2.3
08 Jan 1997 18h54m25.55s + 6 33' 53.5" 1.669 2.455 1.7
18 Jan 1997 19h11m54.14s + 9 41' 33.2" 1.543 2.280 1.1
28 Jan 1997 19h32m22.56s +13 36' 12.5" 1.420 2.091 0.5
07 Feb 1997 19h57m16.07s +18 29' 09.7" 1.302 1.895 -0.2
17 Feb 1997 20h29m03.20s +24 30' 15.1" 1.190 1.703 -0.9
27 Feb 1997 21h12m05.51s +31 35' 59.1" 1.090 1.530 -1.6
09 Mar 1997 22h13m13.83s +39 00' 25.9" 1.007 1.398 -2.2
19 Mar 1997 23h38m06.53s +44 33' 23.8" 0.948 1.330 -2.7
29 Mar 1997 01h16m59.04s +45 24' 06.6" 0.919 1.340 -2.8
08 Apr 1997 02h43m42.32s +41 19' 07.2" 0.924 1.423 -2.7
18 Apr 1997 03h46m17.52s +34 53' 13.2" 0.963 1.557 -2.2
28 Apr 1997 04h29m52.95s +28 14' 19.9" 1.031 1.719 -1.7
08 May 1997 05h01m46.59s +22 11' 29.7" 1.120 1.890 -1.0
- END OF FILE -
==========
--- FMail/386 1.02
* Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence BBS (1:261/1201)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 16 Apr 96 02:40:02
EID:ea98 20901500
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6567eadd
REPLY: 1:116/19 03A63A8A
On Apr 14 06:02 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote: