God Damned Fundies!
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lawrence McCurry
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 13 Apr 96 09:07:00
EID:be84 208d48e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A667B6
LM> There is only one holy smoke and my brothers and sisters are put into
LM> your jails everyday for smoking it...LET MY PEOPLE GO.... Tell your
LM> local political piggy that you want marijauna legalized Now!
LM> Or shall we rot in jail for growing a gift God gave to us all.
LM> === Lawrence ===
Killer weed, dude.
... I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat salad.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 13 Apr 96 09:01:00
EID:a5a2 208d4820
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A67026
> (Applause).
EF> You are, shall we say, somewhat premature. Sorry Al!
Am I? You were forced to at least equivocate on one. And I think Michael
will have some more for you. BTW, which translation of the Bible are you
consulting?
... Got kleptomania? Take something for it.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: PERSPECTIVES
|Date: 13 Apr 96 09:07:00
EID:e0f2 208d48e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A679EA
AS> Well, that's what a lot of us are wondering, if there isn't a
AS> specific incident that might be more historically valid than others.
MM> Even if an event were located to work from, it still wouldn't not
MM> validate one perspective over another very much... it would just say
MM> that that event was done by someone... they still could be described
in
MM> several ways.
Well, there have been ten thousand people who claim to be abducted by
aliens. But if one brings back a little device that shoots out a death
ray, I MIGHT take him a little more seriously...
AS> A Bi-polar Brahma?
MM> Hey, or just a excelent actor? Even the presentation in the Bible
MM> allows for a rather varied interpretation of the nature of God.
True. I suspect God must vary His message somewhat for the stage the
culture is in, the same way I can order a two-year-old to bed by eight,
but allow a sixteen year old to stay up as late as he wants. (Marilyn
HATES that analogy.)
... Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Rob's various replies
|Date: 13 Apr 96 00:03:00
EID:d7c6 208d0060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A68426
EF> Well I was giving you an opportunity to show us how to go about such
EF> things - as you seem to think we should. Now please do so. BTW was
EF> Suetonius part of your study that convinced you of the reality of
EF> Jesus? He also claims that Augustus rose to heaven.
Certainly. He didn't claim to have seen him do so, however. OTOH,
Seutonius is EXCELLENT evidence, if you read the section in Nero, that
Christians were persecuted by around 60 AD...within the lifetime of those
who could refute their beliefs. That is certainly germane. It is one thing
to claim something happened hundreds of years ago. If I claimed Joan of
Arc flew around the room, all possible witnesses are dead by centuries,
and historical records invariably not what we would wish. But if I claim
John F. Kennedy flew around the room, there are hundreds of people who
could verify that he never claimed and they never witnessed such a thing.
And remember the crucifixion, etc. was a very public affair.
> There is no comparable historical event, period.
EF> Baloney. Any claim of supernatural occurance is comparable in this
EF> context.
Multiply attested witness of a miracle, staunchly supported under pain of
death, torture, imprisonment...?
EF> Well then you must be quite well versed in the counter arguments.
EF> Who's impressed you the most and what were the arguments?
David Hume "On Miracles", Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker" come
to mind...Weinberg's "In Search of a Final Theory"...
> No, I was an atheist at the time.
EF> I find that difficult to believe. Did you consider, objectively, the
Perhaps you are aware that C.S. Lewis progressed from atheist/agnostic to
deist and finally Christian, becoming one of its greatest apologists?
SURPRISED BY JOY recounts that. Actually, a better journal of a highly
intelligent skeptic who became a Christian is G.K. Chesterton's ORTHODOXY.
> EF> You never seriously considered skeptical works that make precisel
> EF> opposite case, but rather stuck to tomes that were Resurrection
> EF> friendly.
>
> Absolutely wrong. I made a deliberate point of examining arguments th
> attacked Christianity. I probably read more against than I did in
> favor.
EF> For instance?
In my case, among the dozen or so books from the library I currently have
includes THE JESUS CONSPIRACY, THE EXECUTION OF JESUS, Crossnan's THE
HISTORICAL JESUS : A life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, among others.
Honorable mention must include FORGERY IN CHRISTIANITY, which Larry Sites
was all the time quoting from.
> That's true, because I never gave myself any deadlines. I set out to
> examine the issue indefinitely and just see what there was in favor a
> against. (I also read apologetics for other belief systems, to see ho
> their cases compared.)
EF> Oh, ok. How did you determine they were incorrect? What evidence, for
EF> instance, did you find that Buddha wasn't born speaking - as claimed?
An understanding of Buddhism, of course.
"Thus miracles are (in late documents, I believe) recorded of the Buddha.
But what could be more absurd than that he whocame to teach us that Nature
is an illusion from which we must escape should occupy himself in
producing effects on the Natural level--that he who comes to wake us from
a nightmare should ADD to the nightmare? The more we respect his teaching
the less we cold accept his miracles." C.S. Lewis, MIRACLES.
I know you addressed the questions above to Michael, but I presumed you
might be interested in my response too. (You notice I left all the HARD
questions for Michael...)
... Confuse People: Quote From The Wrong Message
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Self-portrait: Mark Craig
|Date: 13 Apr 96 01:08:00
EID:f503 208d0900
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A68BBA
DC> The blank stare and the foaming tongue says it all...
Mark Craig's self-portrait?
And notice the lack of genitalia....
... Some people aren't equipped to attend a meeting of the minds.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Zionist-Hate Media
|Date: 13 Apr 96 00:08:00
EID:823a 208d0100
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A6998E
JJ> Quoting MARK CRAIG to ALL on 04-07-96
MC>Do you notice how the Jew media chooses to show the life of Moses,
MC>rather than Jesus, during Easter? They must really hate him --
MC>jn.8:44. And to think how those hypocrites in our churches, have
MC>allied themselves with them.
MC>1st. John says that anyone who does not accept him as Lord is the
MC>Anti- Christ, and not to sit-down with them.
JJ> There *is* no "Jew media," and bigotry like this only
JJ> disgraces the name of Christ.
It disgraces the sheer humanity of us all, also.
... The Bible doesn't need to be rewritten, it needs to be reread.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: [1/2] ALLEGORY
|Date: 13 Apr 96 00:03:00
EID:ba2b 208d0060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A6A424
MB> Al is making a very common mistake by going from the specific to
MB> the general much too quickly. Just because ONE person knows
MB> something, it in no way follows that ALL people know the same
MB> thing. That is true today, and was even truer before the mass
MB> communications systems we now have. And, even those who have heard
MB> a particular factoid are not necessarily going to agree with it,
MB> even if it later turns out to be a given. Ptolemy could have
MB> shouted that factoid from the rooftops, and all most people in
MB> that time and place would have done is think he's a nut.
But the point was, Ptolemy's claims were taken as Gospel for over a
thousand years...a thousand years where people accepted both the smallness
of the universe and the truth of the miracles of the Gospels. Yet suddenly
Spong seems to think we cannot reconcile the two. Why is that? I am just
pointing out that Dante knew the Earth was small, compared to the distance
to the stars, just as we do...yet did not feel it ridiculous that God
could be concerned about Earth.
... I'm not dead, I'm metabolically challenged.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Laura Hodgkins
|Sub: angles
|Date: 13 Apr 96 01:07:00
EID:e176 208d08e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04A6B3BA
LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is possible to
LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
Yes, I believe there are angels.
Yes, I believe it is possible.
But no, I think such is very unlikely to be witnessed.
Fair enough?
... I'm sorry...were the voices in my head bothering you?
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:33:36
EID:01ec 208e6420
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3170f0b5
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Christopher!
Saturni dies April 13 1996, Dixit Christopher Baker ad ryan shaw:
CB> silly atheist. god moves in mysterious ways. man cannot judge god or
CB> discern his motives. [snicker]
Sounds like a drunk behind the steering wheel. :-/
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: ryan shaw
|Sub: Downing Doorknockers
|Date: 14 Apr 96 12:36:12
EID:2c35 208e6480
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3170f198
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 17099e43
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, ryan!
Dies solis April 14 1996, Dixit ryan shaw ad Kevin D. Mckenzie:
DM>> I was taking a walk down memory lane, reading your list
DM>> of ways to get rid of missionaries (I shall ask to see a
DM>> driver's license and note down the address the next time one knocks
DM>> at _my_ door, a can tell you that right now), and I
DM>> thought of a possible addition:
rs> Damn, I must have missed that. Could you repost that or send it to
me via
rs> email?
I'd like to see it too. Anyways, I plan to ask for a license the next time
I have visitors (usually two) from the Mormon church. Then the license
comes inside (while the visitors stay outside) as I call the police to have
these guys removed.
"Yipeekayay, motherfuckers."
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: LAURA HODGKINS
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: angles
|Date: 13 Apr 96 13:11:36
EID:6422 208d6960
MSGID: 1:322/746 a6306d09
-> LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is
-> possible to LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
->
-> It would depend on which type of mushrooms you are eating.
I'm not eating any mushrooms, I don't even like them. i'm trying to be
serious here.
--- Platinum Xpress/Wildcat! v1.1
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: "New files"
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:20:01
EID:7853 208e5a80
MSGID: 1:109/611.0 31713eae
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31703a1f
PID: BWQBBS 3.11 [Eval]
All and Steve were killing time yakking about "New files":
SQ> 2) The Apocrypha are included, but I couldn't tell you what the names
SQ> of the books are. They are abbreviated as 151 (I couldn't tell you.
SQ> There is a mention of David and Goliath), 1ma, 2ma, 3ez, 4ez, bar, ju,
SQ> lao, pm, sir, tob, and wis. I can guess at a few of these, but if
SQ> someone can help me out, we'll be halfway there.
Sure thing. The Deuterocanonicals are:
Baruch (bar)
Bel and the Dragon
1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Esther (Greek)
Judith (ju)
Letter of Jeremiah
1 Maccabees (1ma)
2 Maccabees (2ma)
The Prayer of Manasseh (pm)
Sirach (sir)
Song of the Three Young Men
Susanna
Tobit (tob)
Wisdom of Solomon (wis)
I'm assuming that 3ez and 4ez are 1 & 2 Esdras, but I'm not sure what lao
would be (letter of...? o doesn't match up with Jeremiah) If it's an
exhortation against idolatry explaining that that is the reason why the
people are being taken into captivity in Babylon, that's what it is.
The remaining three are expansions of the Book of Daniel that appear in
the
Greek version of that book.
The Song of the Three Young Men is a praise song attributed to the 3 men
who
were thrown into the furnace by Nebuchadnezzar and survived unharmed.
Bel and the Dragon includes two heroic stories about him -- his cleverness
at
defeating the priests of Bel, and his killing of a dragon.
Susanna tells about a woman accused of adultery (her accusers are two judges
who are angry because they wanted her, and she'd said no). She is condemned
to death, but is saved when Daniel questions the judges and catches them
in
a lie.
--
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Nobody roots for Goliath.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Stan Phillips
|Sub: Bullshit Science and Faith
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:29:37
EID:0315 208d93a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce94
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0003c6a6
Stan Phillips said "Bullshit Science and Fait" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> JG> about 10,000 years. This is based on studies by Dr. Thomas G.
Barnes,
DM> JG> Professor Emeritus of Physics at the University of Texas. ...
DM>..... Pustule, that among scientists and on this echo
DM> generally, the coveted Institute of Creation Research
DM> imprimatur is regarded as a solid gold guarantee of pure
DM> bullshit.
SP> Hi there, I was not aware that the University of Texas was the same
SP> place as the "Institute of Creation Research".
Only a rank newbie or the tragically comprehension-impaired
would come to such a conclusion. This Barnes blivet once _taught_ at
the University of Texas, and he has since published the book in
question through the Institute of Creation Research (probably the
only publisher even remotely interested). In another post to this
pustule, I quoted the publication information from "Books in Print"
on this opus, which is, as it happens, an "ICR monograph". Is there
something mystical about these two separate events in the life of
one professor that causes them to so mingle in your fetid
imagination?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:00:57
EID:d049 208d9000
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce95
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 653ed514
J.J. Hitt said "Johnson Smith Catalogue" to Don Martin, adding:
JH>> [Lunch for the first is still on.]
DM> Terrific! Have you any peculiar eating habits?
JH> Not really. I'm partial to chinese buffets, but I get plenty of
JH> that down here. I'm going to make it a point to visit one of the
JH> Maria's while I'm up there to get a real goddam sub. (As for
JH> the limpdick Southern excuse for a sub called a Poor Boy, the
JH> less said the better.)
You are not a vegan then, nor do you subsist entirely on yak
butter--great. We are about three blocks from Little Italy; the
Charthouse is across the street; there is Chinese on Lombard a block
away and there is always Phillip's for pretty good (if overpriced)
seafood with a great view of the harbor.
JH> I'm open to anything but would prefer something "local" (even
JH> Polock Johnny's is prefectly OK with me).
Never been there--I just WORK in Baltimore, I don't gourmandize
there as much as I ought.
JH> By the way... My hard disk has swallowed up your phone number.
JH> I'm not convinced that I've lost it... I just cant find it.
I got no hard breather calls the last time I posted it, so what
the hell . . . . 410/962-1800 x 242.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000 1041 1082 1137 1180
SEEN-BY: 261/1181 1350 2000 2600 3015 3050 3060 3090 3900 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:10:22
EID:d049 208d9140
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce96
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 653f054b
J.J. Hitt said "Johnson Smith Catalogue" to Don Martin, adding:
JH> By the way... My hard disk has swallowed up your phone
JH> number. I'm not convinced that I've lost it... I just cant
JH> find it.
JH> If you're reluctant to post it in the echo (can't imagine why), you
JH> can leave a message for me at the motel at 850-7600.
Staying at BWI, are you? Renting a car or taking the MARC train
(I ride it daily, but on a different line). You wanna have some good
Chinese, our local place in Laurel is one of the best I have hit.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: A Season for Rape
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:34:34
EID:725c 208d9440
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3170ce97
REPLY: 1:246/15 31686461
Steve Wallis said "fof update, staal" to Dan Ceppa, adding:
DC> EF> We want your justification for god ordering the slaughter of
DC> innocent
DC> EF> children and women captives. You keep ducking this point. I
DC> don't
DC>
DC> SW> I wrote what I wrote. Its already Justified.
DC>
DC> IOW, it's ok because your murdering god says its ok.
DC>
DC> You'd do better at the Mass Murderers Echo down the hall,
DC> next to the Bunnies and light crowd.
SW> It was a time of war Dan. Things happen. During dessert storm, the
SW> media tried to revile Norman Swarzkoff becuase of the way some
SW> soldiers killed iraqi troops(they ran over there foxholes in M1
SW> tanks)-his response was "THere's No one nice way to kill someone" What
SW> can you do in a time of war?
They were TROOPS, numbnuts, not little girls passed around for
the fucking. Soldiers get killed--it is part of their job
description--and the General is correct: the process of the killing
is quite often messy and unnice to a great degree. I do not notice
Schwartzkopf being quoted as saying "There is no nice way to rape a
13-year-old virgin," because he, unlike your godlet, does not let
his men do such stuff.
SW> There's a time for every season under heaven Dan.
Apparently in your cosmology there is, therefore, a season for
raping little kids.
And there is likewise a season for telling you to shove the
whole sick mess up your tattered arse. That season is now (and
likely to last some time). Shove it, Cretin.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 13 Apr 96 15:37:02
EID:10c1 208d7ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 317114da
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "AL SCHROEDER"
AS> green, although Myxzptlk is still around and created one piece of red
DC> Any reference as to how they came up with that name?
I bet they took a bunch of Scrabble pieces and put 'em into a hat,
and simply drew at random, writing down each letter as it came out.
"Ok, we'll stop at 7 letters, and whatever those letters are, that's
the name!"
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... Keep Scotland clean! Drop your litter in England!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 13 Apr 96 15:54:03
EID:d41d 208d7ec0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 317114db
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "MY BOOK"
AS> I beg your indulgence for rereading this, but I have a point to
It took me a second reading in another packet to spot the part where
George claims to have destroyed the book. Before, I was annoyed.
Now I'm pissed.
AS> echo, Styx. George's blatant dishonesty has put all of Holy Smoke in
AS> danger, because Styx surely will not run it if he is held liable for
AS> George's craziness. George, in his pettyness, has put all of Holy
AS> Smoke in danger. I think George should be banned from the echo for
AS> this; I do not say this lightly. If Styx does not want to do
He has .. now I'll just have to rip him up in netmail. I wasn't
going to do it; I was going to simply keep out of it, even though it
affects me (however slightly) as well. Now, no way. He's going to
get a serious chunk of my mind; I just have to remember what his
fucking netmail address was. Hell, if I had a car, I'd spend a day
and go do it in person.
AS> this...and I very sincerely hope the legal opinion is wrong and Styx
AS> cannot be held responsible...than I urge a boycott on George. That
AS> we not respond to him in any way shape or form. I have told George
AS> what I think of him, and intend it to be my LAST post to him. I am
AS> not twitting him. I will read every thing he will doubtless call me.
AS> But he will receive no further response. If everyone wants to do the
AS> same, I suggest that George will eventually get bored and leave.
AS> I want to extend every sympathy to John. I hope he CAN sue George,
AS> and George alone. I hope he can take him to the cleaners. Any support
AS> he needs that I can give, he has. Since they live in the same town,
I
AS> understand, if I were George I would be looking over my shoulder
AS> right now, looking to see if John was coming to settle this in an
AS> EXTRA-legal way. And I could not blame him for that, either.
AS> I lost many of my books recently, and I feel for John's loss. And
AS> I think George should be...at the very least...persona non grata
AS> around here.
Shit, I wish I could sue him, too; I had an interest of sorts in
borrowing John's book (and was especially interested in his notes.)
If John DOES decide to sue, however, I'm more than willing to
testify if needs be.
As for the extra-legal stuff, John was planning to come up this way
this year. Where George lives isn't all that far out of the way, on
the way to Windsor from Missouri. I think George-0 forgot that.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... "Oh, very clever Worf. Eat any good books lately?" -- Q
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Question
|Date: 13 Apr 96 15:12:01
EID:aa0d 208d7980
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 317114d9
A lone voice in the wilderness, Mark mournfully howled out "Question"
MC> Recently a pyramid was built in Memphis. It is similar to the
MC> pyramid on the dollar-bill, except in place of the eye, the top is
MC> blue. I understand that there is occult symbolism there. Would anyone
MC> like to elaborate?
Sure. It means that Walter "Korntron" Bartoo has escaped from the
funny farm again.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Science
|Date: 13 Apr 96 10:25:00
EID:3ca5 208d5320
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 317114d8
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "Science"
JH> THESE ARE ACTUAL EXCERPTS FROM
JH> STUDENT SCIENCE EXAM PAPERS (so goes the claim...):
I wouldn't be surprised.
JH> Three kinds of blood vessels are arteries, vanes and caterpillers.
Ewww. I don't want "vanes" or caterpillars running around inside ..
JH> The dodo is a bird that is almost decent by now.
Someone put clothes on the bones?
JH> To remove air from a flask, fill it with water, tip the water
JH> out, and put the cork in quick before the air can get back in.
Next this kid will be measuring the speed of dark.
JH> The process of turning steam back into water again is called
JH> conversation.
Are these elementary school students?
JH> A magnet is something you find crawling all over a dead cat.
Hmmm.
JH> The Earth makes one resolution every 24 hours.
I thought that was just on New Year's.
JH> The cuckoo bird does not lay his own eggs.
Well, that's almost close. His wife does it for him. ;)
JH> To prevent conception when having intercourse, the male wears a
JH> condominium.
Sounds heavy.
JH> To collect fumes of sulfur, hold a deacon over a flame in a test
JH> tube.
Protestant or Catholic?
JH> Parallel lines never meet, unless you bend one or both of them.
DOH! Gee, why didn't Euclid think of that? :P
JH> Algebraical symbols are used when you do not know what you are
JH> talking about.
So I've always suspected ..
JH> Geometry teaches us to bisex angles.
Woo woo!
JH> A circle is a line which meets its other end without ending.
So is a square, by that definition ..
JH> The pistol of a flower is its only protection against insects.
"I'm sick of you bees coming around all the time!" Ah, gun
culture.
JH> The moon is a planet just like the Earth, only it is even deader.
Someone sounds bored ..
JH> Artificial insemination is when the farmer does it to the cow
JH> instead of the bull.
I was drinking iced tea when I read this, and nearly blew it all
over my newly-repaired keyboard.
JH> An example of animal breeding is the farmer who mated a
JH> bull that gave a great deal of milk with a bull with good meat.
Good trick.
JH> We believe that the reptiles came from the amphibians by
JH> spontaneous generation and study of rocks.
Sigh. A creationist in the making.
JH> English sparrows and starlings eat the farmers grain and soil his
JH> corpse.
I suppose if the farmer dies in his fields ..
JH> By self-pollination, the farmer may get a flock of long-haired
JH> sheep.
"Go fuck yerself, mate! No, on second thought, we don't need more
New Zealanders".
JH> Dew is formed on leaves when the sun shines down on them and
JH> makes them perspire.
Uh-huh.
JH> A super-saturated solution is one that holds more than it can hold.
I take it logic isn't a required course?
JH> A triangle which has an angle of 135 degrees is called an obscene
JH> triangle.
Interesting terminology throughout this selection, isn't there?
JH> Blood flows down one leg and up the other.
JH> A person should take a bath once in the summer, and not quite
JH> so often in the winter.
Lemme guess - this student lives in the Ozarks?
JH> The hookworm larvae enters the human body through the soul.
More of that tell-tale terminology.
JH> When you haven't got enough iodine in your blood you get a glacier.
This is completely mystifying. Glacier - goitre?
JH> It is a well-known fact that a deceased body harms the mind.
{stunned look}
JH> Humans are more intelligent than beasts because the human branes
JH> have more convulsions.
I can almost buy that convulsions bit.
JH> For fainting: rub the person's chest, or if a lady, rub
JH> her arm above the hand instead.
First aid as learned through 1940s movies.
JH> For fractures: to see if the limb is broken, wiggle it
JH> gently back and forth.
! If I ever get injured, I hope this kid isn't around.
JH> To remove dust from the eye, pull the eye down over the nose.
Ewwww.
JH> When you smell an odorless gas, it is probably carbon monoxide.
More of that lack of logic (or reading comprehension).
This sort of reminds me of tests I had to mark as an instructor at a
summer cadet camp. The last question, worth 7 marks (the most of
any of 'em), was "Describe and draw a diagram of how one can find
due north at night." The correct answer would have been a drawing of
how the Big Dipper directs one to the North Star. Even though the
kids had already learned this at their home corps, had been taught
this, and even had it demonstrated to them at night, only ONE of the
tests had it right. The most interesting drawing was that of a
person standing on the North Pole (there was a drawing of the entire
Earth) with the North Star above him. I and several other NCOs and
a couple of officers were sitting at a picnic table marking these,
and we were passing the tests around laughing our assses off. Any
dumb drawing that made us laugh got 1 point. Gads,
that was pathetic. It's a good thing we weren't in the Southern
Hemisphere; finding due south using the Southern Cross is slightly
(very slightly) more complicated, and none of them likely would have
gotten it right. It's also a good thing they weren't on the Outward
Bound course, in which they would have actually had to use their
fieldcraft when they were left out in the woods on their own for one
week.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... What's all this I hear about robbery with violins?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE END?
|Date: 13 Apr 96 17:00:00
EID:466c 208d8800
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Selena Kerr <=-
DC> Not in the least. Do you like a crispy, high fiber crust?
No, no, Dan. In her case it's FLAKY crust. Definitely flaky.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/19 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 13 Apr 96 17:22:00
EID:f372 208d8ac0
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Dan Ceppa <=-
JB> Oh, and you don't like my language. Fine...fuck off, dipshit.
DC> Perhaps you should bake him a chocolate cake and make up with
DC> the nice guy, Judith.
SA> I'll throw in a "cigarette" for the make-up pool.
Damn! Never got the original of this one or I'd have told Dan that
Ex-lax doesn't bake well into cakes. It goes better in pies...or puddings.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/19 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Angel Fundy
|Date: 11 Apr 96 23:33:00
EID:fcb8 208bbc20
MSGID: 1:3819/163 317087CB
EF>>No I know the truth, I just can not adequately explain it to you.
EF>But in a message to Karen Davis you say:
EF>> Well no that is a intersting question. The Bible says that he was and
EF>> always has been. Well who knows, I guess I will have to ask him when
I
EF>> see him.
EF>First you say you know the truth and then you admit you don't.
No I said that I know the truth, not all of the ansers.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Ex #7: Two-legged cats are slower than three-legged cats.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3819/163 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 14 Apr 96 16:24:17
EID:87fe 208e8300
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 17166a35
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from --Todd Lappin--> (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 14 '96, 02:05
.5]) by hardly.hotwired.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA02179; Sat, 13
Apr 1996 22:59:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [204.62.133.231] (SHLAN2.wired.com [204.62.133.232]) by wired.com
(8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA11218; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: telstar@wired.com
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin-->)
Subject: LAWSUIT: ACLU Trial Update 4/12/96
Sender: owner-cda-bulletin-list@hotwired.com
Reports are starting to stream in from last Friday's CDA hearing in
Philadelphia, and based on preliminary indications, things are looking
good.
Under cross-examination, the two government witnesses who testified on
Friday were forced to admit to shortcomings in their arguments that the
Communications Decency Act is the least restrictive means for protecting
minors from inappropriate online material.
Moreover, it seems that at least one of the three judges hearing the case,
Judge Stewart Dalzell, is sympathetic to our cause.
All this is very encouraging. But as they say, "It ain't over 'til it's
over."
The following ACLU Trial Update provides more detail. Read on, and as always...
Work the network!
--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
======================================================
ACLU v. RENO: TRIAL UPDATE
* 1st Government Witness Acknowledges Difficulty in Finding Sexually
Explicit Material Online
* 2nd Government Witness Returns Monday to Conclude Testimony
* Plaintiffs have option to rebut government case Monday
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friday, April 12, 1996
PHILADELPHIA -- Testifying for the government today, Special Agent Howard
A.
Schmidt acknowledged, in answer to skeptical questioning by a three-judge
panel, that it is "highly unlikely" for anyone to come across sexually
explicit sites on the Internet by accident.
As the first witness for the government, Agent Schmidt began the morning
with
a live Internet tour and demonstration of a search for so-called indecency.
The demonstration stopped short of actually displaying any of the images,
but traced for the court the route by which Schmidt arrived at various web
sites.
Schmidt acknowledged -- under cross-examination -- that majority of the
sites
he found would have been off limits had he been running a software program
such as SurfWatch, that blocks access to Internet sites considered
inappropriate for children.
Marjorie Heins, who conducted cross-examination for the ACLU, noted that
Agent Schmidt's expertise -- and the government's case -- lies in focusing
on
a very narrow category of sexual material, much of which is already covered
by existing obscenity law.
"In today's testimony, the government attempted to divert the court's
attention from the serious concerns of our plaintiffs by focusing on material
that is highly inflammatory and largely irrelevant to this case," Heins
said.
The consolidated cases of ACLU v. Reno and ALA v. DOJ challenge provisions
of
the Communications Decency Act that criminalize making available to minors
"indecent" or "patently offensive" speech.
Under questioning by the judges, Agent Schmidt was asked how he would enforce
the censorship law when confronted with a safe-sex information web-site
that
displayed an image illustrating how to put a condom on an erect penis.
Agent Schmidt said that since the context was "educational, not purely for
pleasure purposes," he would not censor the site but advise the publishers
to
post warnings.
His answer was different when asked how he would rate an online copy of
the
controversial Vanity Fair magazine cover featuring the actress Demi Moore,
nearly naked and eight months pregnant.
In that case, Schmidt said, the Communications Decency Act would apply
because the image was "for fun." He also said, in answer to a query from
Judge Stuart Dalzell, that the community standard as to the offensive of
the
image might be different for Minnesota than it would for New York.
"It is ironic that, according to the government, an explicit online image
of
an erect penis in an educational context would be acceptable, whereas Vanity
Fair, a constitutionally protected publication containing a much less
explicit image, would be censored," Heins said.
Following Agent Schmidt's testimony, the final plaintiff witness, Dr. Albert
Vezza, told the judges about PICS (Platform for Internet Content Selection),
a new rating system designed to allow parents to control children's access
to
the Internet without censorship.
Dr. Vezza is associate director of the MIT Laboratory for Computer Sciences
and has chief responsibility for the PICS project. He was unable to testify
earlier in the case due to scheduling conflicts.
Dr. Vezza said he expected that wide industry acceptance of the PICS standard
would enable any number of "third-party" organizations such as the PTA,
the
Christian Coalition or the Boy Scouts of America to rate content for Internet
users.
The second and final government witness, Dr. Dan Olsen, a professor of
computer science at Brigham Young University, took the stand in the
mid-afternoon.
Dr. Olsen acknowledged that the PICS standard would allow parents to control
their children's Internet viewing according to their own values or via a
rating system devised by a trusted organization.
He also acknowledged that a system he had conceived in which Internet sites
must be labelled by the content originator, would not allow for such an
independent rating scheme.
While plaintiff lawyers completed cross-examination of Dr. Olsen today,
he
will return on Monday for redirect by government lawyers and to answer any
questions the judges may have.
It is now anticipated that Monday, April 15, will be the last day of trial
in
ACLU v Reno. Plaintiff lawyers will have the opportunity on Monday (instead
of April 26) to call witnesses to rebut the governments's testimony.
However, the ACLU and ALA coalitions did not indicate which witnesses, if
any they would call.
Because the April 26 rebuttal day is no longer necessary, the next date
in
court is set for June 3, when the three-judge panel will hear oral arguments
from both plaintiffs and defendants.
The judges are expected to issue a ruling some time in the weeks following.
Under expedited provisions, any appeal on rulings regarding the new
censorship law will be made directly to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Lawyers for the ACLU appearing before the judges are Christopher Hansen,
Marjorie Heins, Ann Beeson, and Stefan Presser, legal director of the ACLU
of
Pennsylvania.
###
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
This transmission was brought to you by....
THE CDA INFORMATION NETWORK
The CDA Information Network is a moderated distribution list providing
up-to-the-minute bulletins and background on efforts to overturn the
Communications Decency Act. To subscribe, send email to
with "subscribe cda-bulletin" in the message body.
WARNING: This is not a test WARNING: This is not a drill
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 14 Apr 96 16:33:47
EID:87fe 208e8420
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 17166a57
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from --Todd Lappin--> (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 14 '96, 02:09
.5]) by hardly.hotwired.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA02189; Sat, 13
Apr 1996 23:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin-->)
Here's yet another report on last Friday's CDA hearing in Philadelphia...
this time from the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition.
As this posting explains:
"Based on Friday's testimony, the basis of the government's defense appears
to be that sexually explicit material is easily available to minors on the
Internet, and that the CDA, combined with a system for labeling sexually
explicit material, is necessary to prevent minors from accessing sexually
explicit material online."
Hearings resume on Monday, April 15, and of course, I'll send out trial
updates as soon as I receive them.
In the meantime, it's still possible to become a co-plaintiff in the case
by joining the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition via the World Wide
Web. It's free, it's easy, and it gives you a chance to take part in this
historic legal action to defend free speech in cyberspace.
To register, point your browser to:
http://www.cdt.org/ciec
--or--
http://www.hotwired.com/special/lawsuit
Work the network!
--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
===========================================
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition Trial Update No. 9
Pre-Trial Update - April 13, 1996 5:30 pm ET
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/
ciec-info@cdt.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CIEC UPDATES intended for members of the Citizens Internet
Empowerment Coalition. CIEC Updates are written and edited by the
Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org). This
document may be reposted as long as it remains in total.
------------------------------------------------------------------
** 40,000 Netizens Vs. U.S. Department of Justice. **
* The Fight To Save Free Speech Online *
Contents:
o Government Argues CDA is Necessary and Not Overly Restrictive
* Government Witness Proposes Content Labeling Standard
* SurfWatch Blocks Government Expert
o How To Unsubscribe from this list
o More Information on CIEC and the Center for Democracy and Technology
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote of the Day: "Come on line with us, and your kids won't see
what is in [DOJ lead attorney] Mr. Coppalino's book"
of sexually explicit images found online.
-- Judge Stewart Dalzell, suggesting how service providers might market
PICS compatible Internet services
(1) GOVERNMENT ARGUES CDA IS NECESSARY AND NOT OVERLY RESTRICTIVE
The second phase of the legal challenge to the Communications Decency Act
began on Friday as the Department of Justice presented its defense of the
new law before the three judge panel in Philadelphia. Although basic
outline of the government's defense has been known for some time, Friday
marked the first time that the Government has presented witnesses in
defense of the CDA.
Based on Friday's testimony, the basis of the government's defense appears
to be that sexually explicit material is easily available to minors on the
Internet, and that the CDA, combined with a system for labeling sexually
explicit material, is necessary to prevent minors from accessing sexually
explicit material online.
Three witnesses testified at the Friday hearing:
* Howard Schmidt, Special Agent, Director of the Air Force Office of
Special Investigations, Computer Crime Investigations, and
* Dan Olsen, Chair of the Brigham Young University Computer Science
Department
* Albert Vezza, of MIT and the World Wide Web Consortium. (Vezza was
called by the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition).
DOJ EXPERT CLAIMS THAT SPEAKER-BASED LABELING IS AN EFFECTIVE SOLUTION
The government also called Dan Olsen, form Brigham Young University, who
testified that a content labeling system he has developed can effectively
prevent minors from accessing sexually explicit material online. Olsen
proposed that content providers who offer sexually explicit material should
include a "-L18" (for under 18) tag on their sites, and that World Wide
Web
browsers should be programmed to recognize this tag and prevent minors from
accessing tagged sites.
Despite Olsen's academic affiliation and research credentials, his standing
as an expert on Internet standards setting is questionable at best. Olsen
does not sit on the Internet Engineering Task Force or any other body
charged with developing protocols for the Internet, nor does he have any
other direct experience with the Internet standards process. This fact
was
challenged by CIEC attorney's, who initially objected to Olsen's testimony.
The court overruled the objection, stating that they would hear Olsen's
testimony "for what it's worth".
Olsen, who admitted he came up with the idea for a -L18 tag only since the
government asked him to testify in this case, suggested that the burden
of
preventing minors from accessing objectionable material online should fall
primarily on content providers, rather than the recipients of the material.
During cross examination by CIEC attorney Bruce Ennis and ACLU attorney
Chris Hansen, Olsen admitted that his proposal contains several critical
shortcomings. Among these:
* The standard for what material should receive a -L18 tag is difficult
to determine.
* Relying on speakers to label their material requires that listeners
trust the judgment of the speaker, and limits the ability of listeners
to make decisions based on their own personal or family values.
* The -L18 proposal contains no flexibility - it is either on or off.
* It is basically impossible for a content provider to determine who is
an adult and to ensure that only adults have access to adult-oriented
materials.
Ennis argued that, as a result, the only effective method to prevent minors
from accessing inappropriate material online is to rely on end users and
parents to control what material comes into their homes using parental
control technologies such as SurfWatch, CyberPatrol, AOL's Parental Control
features, PICS, etc.
Interestingly, although Olsen's proposal is conceptually similar to
KidCode, a content labeling standards proposed by Nathaniel Borenstein last
summer. Olsen stated he didn't know what KidCode was nor had he ever heard
of it.
Finally, Olsen testified that, because the government was involved in the
initial development of the Internet, he believes that the government has
a
role in determining appropriate technical standards for content labeling.
This testimony was particularly striking because it in many ways represents
the worst nightmare of CDA opponents -- that the law will permit Government
will dictate technical protocols and standards for content on the Internet.
Although this remains a significant concern, CIEC and ACLU attorneys
effectively demonstrated that Olsen's proposed solution is poorly conceived
and impractical.
SURFWATCH FOILS GOVERNMENT EXPERT
Howard Schmidt conducted a live demonstration of the Internet, taking the
court on a tour of world wide web sites devoted to legal issues, a site
promoting the City of Philadelphia, and several search engines. He then
showed the court several usenet newsgroups and decoded pictures of ducks
from the alt.binaries.pictures.animals newsgroup. Schmidt then showed the
court sites containing sexually explicit images, although no he did not
actually display any sexually explicit materials.
Schmidt's demonstration was intended to show how easily a child can access
sexually explicit materials online. Throughout the course of the court
proceedings, the government has sought to show that minors can
inadvertently stumble upon "indecent" or "patently offensive" material in
the normal course of using the Internet, particularly through search
engines, and that parental control software such as SurfWatch and
Cyberpatrol are not effective at preventing minors from accessing such
material.
While Schmidt claimed that minors can "inadvertently" stumble upon sexually
explicit material on the Internet, the Judges appeared unconvinced and
asked several pointed questions. Judge Sloviter repeatedly asked "Can one
inadvertently come across this material?".
Schmidt's claim that minors can inadvertently access sexually explicit
material on the Internet highlights a critical issue in this case. If the
government can demonstrate that minors can easily and inadvertently receive
indecent or patently offensive material on the Internet, the gvt. can argue
that the Internet is a "pervasive medium" similar to television and radio,
and that broad content regulations like the CDA are the only way to protect
minors.
In his testimony, Schmidt cited examples of sexually explicit web sites
which were not blocked by SurfWatch. Schmidt testified that he had found
these sites by searching for terms such as "sex" and "xxx" on popular
Internet search engines. During cross examination by CIEC attorney Ann
Kappler however, Schmidt revealed that he had run his initial searches
WITHOUT SurfWatch running. Kappler noted that SurfWatch prevents searches
for terms like "sex" or "xxx", and that had Schmidt been running the
program when he conducted his initial search, he would have been unable
to
access any of the sites he claimed SurfWatch didn't block.
In response to relentless questioning by Kappler, Schmidt reluctantly
admitted that "SurfWatch would not have allowed the [initial] search".
PICS - AN EXAMPLE OF A LESS-RESTRICTIVE ALTERNATIVE TO THE CDA
In addition to the two government witnesses, the CIEC called Albert Vezza
of MIT and the World Wide Web Consortium to explain the Platform For
Internet Content Selection (PICS) to the court.
PICS is a set of protocols which will permit voluntary multiple,
independent third party rating systems to operate on the Internet and
commercial online services, as well as permit content providers to rate
their own material. The PICS standards are being developed at MIT through
the World Wide Web Consortium with the support of most of the online
industry, including America Online, Prodigy, Netscape, Microsoft, Apple,
and others.
Vezza explained to the court that PICS, unlike Dan Olsen's "-L18" tag, will
allow for tremendous flexibility in rating content, and that many ratings
systems are possible. And, because PICS would be controlled at the user
level, parents and other users would have tremendous control over what
material they access.
Vezza also testified that PICS is far less restrictive and far more
effective at preventing children from accessing inappropriate material than
the Communications Decency Act. Vezza testified that because a substantial
amount of sexually explicit material is available on sites outside the
United states, and because PICS allows parents to utilize trusted
third-party rating systems, it is inherently more powerful and flexible
than the broad restrictions imposed by the CDA.
Vezza also pointed out that the PICS standards will allow parents to block
access to all unrated sites if they choose. As a result, Vezza said,
"children could be protected without mandating any one rating system, from
foreign sites, and from sites with indecent or patently offensive material
that has not been rated".
The Judges appeared extremely interested in Vezza's testimony, and asked
numerous questions. Judge Stewart Dalzell, who has taken a keen interest
in
the case, stated for the second time since the trial began that the world
wide web has developed almost entirely because the government has stayed
out of the way. At one point, Dalzell stated "There must be powerful
market forces driving this process". Dalzell then stated rhetorically that
he could imagine a marketing advantage for implementing PICS standards and
that providers would sell their services by saying, "come on line with us
and your kids won't see what is in Mr. Coppalino's book", referring to the
book of evidence containing sexually explicit images found online.
TESTIMONY TO RESUME MONDAY APRIL 15
Testimony will resume on Monday April 15 with Government witness Dan Olsen.
The trial is proceeding more quickly than initially expected, and it is
possible that all testimony from both sides will be concluded on Monday.
It is possible that the hearing originally scheduled for April 26 will be
canceled, and that the closing arguments, scheduled for June 6, will be
moved to up to mid-May. CDT will post an update as more information
becomes available.
FOR MORE INFORMATION
More information on the case, including the text of the complaint,
supporting documents, transcripts from the first three days of testimony,
and back issues of CIEC Trial Bulletins can be found on the Citizens
Internet Empowerment Coalition Web Site:
http://www.cdt.org/ciec
###
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
This transmission was brought to you by....
THE CDA INFORMATION NETWORK
The CDA Information Network is a moderated distribution list providing
up-to-the-minute bulletins and background on efforts to overturn the
Communications Decency Act. To subscribe, send email to
with "subscribe cda-bulletin" in the message body.
WARNING: This is not a test WARNING: This is not a drill
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
___
Received: from [204.62.133.231] (SHLAN2.wired.com [204.62.133.232]) by wired.com
(8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA11545; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:02:42 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: telstar@wired.com
Subject: LAWSUIT: CIEC Trial Update 4/12/96
Sender: owner-cda-bulletin-list@hotwired.com
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Wally Jabbusch
|To: Ric Carter
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:58:24
EID:9484 208e5f40
PID: BWMAX2 3.19 Beta [Eval]
MSGID: 1:153/8009.0 317183ef
RC> Beyond that: if the xian contention that aborted fetuses [feti?] go
to
RC> heaven is correct, in fact if all those who die in infancy are heaven
RC> bound, then we have to take into account that until recently, the vast
RC> majority of humans died in infancy. Even now, it's estimated by the
RC> WHO that over half of all pregnancies worldwide result in premature
RC> births, spontaneous abortions, miscarriages, etc. Thus heaven will
be
RC> populated primarily with souls that NEVER had any experiences "in the
RC> world", never had any real social contact; in fact, never acquired
RC> language skills. Thus, besides the "saved" murderers & torturers &
RC> rapists & republicans & talkshow hosts, heaven will be filled with
RC> silent zygotes, feti, babes.
RC> So imagine the usual encounter: yer strolling thru the cloudy streets,
RC> checkin' out the angels' tits & listening to that heavenly-choir
RC> Muzak, when ya run into somebody, anybody, another immortal.
RC> "Hi there, pilgrim", ya exclaim, "How's things!?"
RC> (silence)
RC> "Err, what's yer name?? How'd ya get here?", ya ask.
RC> (silence)
RC> "O, ya must be one a'them preemies, huh? Well, I gotta go see a guy
RC> about a, umm, a dog, that's it, I gotta see a guy about a dog. You
RC> take it easy now, OK? See ya, sport!", you say, taking your exit.
RC> This is how most heavenly conservations would go. Boring place, eh?
Well that, and please don't forget this..there will be a lot of spying going
on to rid heaven from all the unjust types. What unjust types you mat ask?
From my exerience I've found that when a person finds "THE LORD" in their
own
mind they are the epitomy of a good christian. Now that they have delt with
that they can now go out and find all others who may stray in one way or
another.
So to keep heaven pure they must do the work that they started down here,
judge others
using their own morality as a yardstick.
Normally I don't care what people belive, but this "MORAL MAJORATY" get
to me
real fast. They smile with one face and judge you with the other and then
try to ban you to their version of hell. All the while having a shit eating
grin on their faces
as they are above everyone else.
When that happens I'll go after their beliefs.Why? To prove to them that
that is all
it really is a belief,and opinion based in faith. I could belive in a head
of
lettuce and still be on the same level as them. Ok not a head of lettuce
but you get
the point. I once misspelled a word in here and was brought up sort for
it.
Have a good one
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: 3rd Planet Communications. [604] 521-4096 (1:153/8009)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Renee Deyoe
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 14 Apr 96 13:27:49
EID:e3cc 208e6b60
MSGID: 1:352/266 31717CC5
RD> ajerk..you think...I thought this was a religious debate echo, not a
RD> Flameecho..am I wrong? Please correct me if I am.
Actually, its both. It depends on which persons you choose to engage in
discussion. If you indulge those who want to flame, you will get flamed.
If however, you can ignore the sensless banter, there are those worth a
good discussion. I felt the sort of overpowering confusion when I first
logged into this area... but later found that swimming with sharks was good
mental exercise for the real world where such flaming can be a common occurance.
Toughens the skin a bit.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Ralph Jansen
|To: Malady Keane
|Sub: Omni-impotence
|Date: 13 Apr 96 18:40:16
EID:b764 208d9500
MSGID: 1:398/1.0 316ff510
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 316d95a0
MK> omnipotence and what not. I do not believe that
MK> God is Omni ANYTHING. God supposedly created
MK> everything, but if he is truly omniscient he would
MK> have known from the very beginning what his
MK> creation would consist of down to the last quark
MK> even before he created it, he would have known the
MK> thoughts and actions of every human being, animal,
MK> micro-organism, and atom from that creative
MK> instant. This basically means that no human being
MK> has any free will at all, you see, because if God
MK> possessed this knowledge before creation(which he
MK> must have if he is really omniscient) then every
MK> thing that exists and the actions of everything
MK> were meant to happen in that manner and
MK> order...creation was his idea, and everything was
MK> pre-planned to be this way by Him a long time ago.
Very good...you have come to understand it. In the whole view of life,
there is no free will. Do you know what it really means when we say that
God is eternal. Eternity is like a spot, and to our view, it exists at
every spot of time. That is how God can be everywhere at once. It is an
infinite spot that is everywhere. God does know everything, and He can
SEE it all, because He is there. In the humans heavily handicapped point
of view, we have free will. We do not know what is going to happen, and
we do not know what we are going to do the next second. If we think we
do, something may happen that will change it. God already knows what will
happen though, because He can see it.
Here is another point of view for you. If you do not think that it works,
try to put yourself in God's position. You are eternal, and you can see
everything of the earth from beginning to end. You have all power, and
you have set things up in a logical manner, since the logic that the puny
humans have is just a distorted view of your own. You are so wise that
you are wiser then all humans in your foolishness(this is only to show how
much greater God is, doesn't mean it happens...), and stronger then all
humans in your weakness. You(looking from God's view) are the ruler of
the earth, and everything is your property. Because of this, you can do
whatever you please, and it is all moral.(I could destroy my computer, and
that is not evil, because it is my property...) Now you are not God, but
human. As a human, you can only see what is happening at a tiny spot in
time. The spot at which you are at. You are weak, and stupid next to this
God, and yet you think that you can figure Him out, or even reason Him away.
The only thing that there is to hold on to is free will. Well to the human
it is free will because he does not know what will happen, or what choice
he will make.
MK> This also makes me wonder if God has any choices of
MK> his own, his omniscience lets him know his own
MK> actions as well, thus he is held captive by his own
MK> power. Did he have any choice in creating the
MK> universe? Omnipotence: If God is omnipotent, then
Before even asking that, it is important to remember that we are cripples
next to God. God could fight us with all of his brains tied behind his
back...and he would still win...every time. Our view is to small to even
try to fathom every angle of God. We don't get angry at nature when we
don't totally understand it, yet every scientist will tell you that every
time we answer a question, many more make themselves known. We are to strive
to know God, but we will never fully understand Him, until we see Him.
MK> universe? Omnipotence: If God is omnipotent, then
MK> can he will himself out of existence? Can he
MK> create a stone so heavy that even HE cannot lift
MK> it? either answer, yes or no, strips him of this
MK> omnipotent status. Christians believe God to be the perfect loving
Please give your questions in a logical fashion. The two questions you
have asked are illogical. There are logical boundaries to everything.
Take the second question for example. If God can do everything, why would
He do something that cannot be done logically. It is circular in reasoning,
and therefore, there is no answer, and God remains unstripped. As to the
first one, why in the world would He WANT to will Himself out of existence.
Please, keep your questions logical, as God is logical.
MK> being, totally without flaw. Yet, by his own words
MK> he IS flawed. He claims to be a jealous god who
MK> yearns to be worshipped. This is clear evidence of
MK> insecurity, and why would an all powerful, all
MK> knowing being desire ANYTHING? Christianity states
MK> that Lucifer rebelled in heaven and was thus cast
MK> out. How did Lucifer have the capacity to grasp
MK> the concept of evil? Since Lucifer was God's
MK> creation, Lucifer thus was/is essentially OF God
MK> originally, so the capacity for evil must have
MK> existed also in God himself. Thats about enough,
First of all, where does it say that He yearns to be worshipped. I mean,
in an insecure way. If you were a god, and you created someone, and they
go worship a rock because they believe it created them, how would you feel?
He has every right to have all of His creation worship Him. He made it
all, and He is God
Ralph Jansen
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Programmers Connection OS/2 Warp (1:398/1)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:09:50
EID:1a5d 208ea920
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65578851
REPLY: 1:124/9005 316e0dfc
SQ> Tornado season is getting ready to whiz through Texas again...how
SQ> many churches will Yahweh get this year?
I noticed that there was a tornado out in.....in...damn....I forgot the
name of the little town but it was the same one that got ravaged three years
or so ago.
Nice guy, god.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: problems, troubles, woes
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:27:31
EID:0ef3 208eab60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6557c5e6
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895C438F
MH> The concern is not without merit, though the situation is not
MH> dire. That is as much as I care to say publicly at this
MH> point.
Don't know if you can get netmail, but I'll try anyway. No need to respond
in netmail, but a word int eh echo will let me know it arrived.
I find myself in the echo not so much to pester theists, but to take advantage
of the pure comedy that fanatacism genders. We get quite a stripe of fools
in there, on both sides of the issue. In my humble opinion, some of the
atheists in there are a stone's throw from dangerous. The Rice brothers
are prime examples. I have taken a few of them to task for unfounded statements
on more than one occasion.
The nature of fanaticism makes it difficult to predct where it will lead.
If you think that you are a rational person and others claim otherwise then
so be it. But you have to consider the source. I, for one, while I think
you are misguided on the issue of god, believe you to be a reasonable person
who dosen't seem to be too far afield when religion is brought up. People
that are fanatics, like the Rice Family and Marilyn B. have an agenda and
refuse to release it. Again, IMHO, twitting does no good. If you are going
to twit someone with a point of view other than your own, you may as well
twit everyone. This is what it seems thta Marilyn has done.
So, the answer to your question is that in my book, you hven't done anything
tht would (or should) offend anyone. It's all a bunch of tripe. Apologies
are wasted on those with an agenda. We're all just blips on a screen and
mostly we'll never meet each other.
Which itself is not true. I met Marty Leipzig over this medium and we have
become good friends. But at any rate, I wouldn't be too upset by anything
you read in a conference devoted to flaming as a debate tool. It's just
naot that important.
Martin
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Rob's various replies
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:39:38
EID:7dbf 208eace0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6557dd6d
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895C438E
MG>> This is because we have no evidence tht miracles occur.
MH> ROFL! And you never will, if you make a habit of refusing to
MH> examine possibilities.
Just this morning I was looking at the comics page reading a strip about
a young man who had an interesting theory ont he dinosaurs. He claimed
that they were wiped out by spacemen suing them for target practice. He
was having difficulty getting this published anywhere and his letter to
Stephen Jay Gould was returned unopened.
Sence there is no evidence for miracles, we cannot study them. When we
hear of a alrge body of water being parted down the middle, we just laugh,
just as we laugh t the comic strip. It's allegory or even just plain mythology
and you should recognize that.
MH> Miracles, by definition, are outside the scope of science. Many
MH> miracles have been reported, but because they cannot be
MH> investigated scientifically, scientists ignore them. It is a
MH> self-fulfilling prophecy.
It's pretty convenient that there is no evidence for miracles. Then you
go on to say that we simply cannot study them as there is no evidence.
Once again, I must remind you that real things leave real traces. Perhaps
a gret flood occured against all science. where is the evidence that it
did. If it is not there, what use could yourgod have for covering it up?
These are questions of a logical nature. it seems that each time your god
has the chance to show himself, he chooses to remain hidden. Why is this?
Maybe becuse he cannot show himself?
MH> reputable physicians -- several of them -- corrborated the
MH> claim. As a scientist, you could not duplicate the event. So
MH> would you concede that a miracle occurred? I suspect you'd
As a scientist I would predict that there was a misread x ray laying around
somewhere.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 14 Apr 96 21:59:53
EID:7143 208eaf60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6557fdaa
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316DE35D
MB> Thats about the size of it. That is why God promiesed never to do
MB> it again.
Then why have there been floods since that time that damaged property and
persons. Killed thousands during heavy rains in India. Why are there droughts
and diseases?
Why has your god not kept his promise.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hitler was a Christia
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:15:16
EID:70e3 208eb1e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 655829fb
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 338890c5
ef>> There WAS no extermination of the mentally ill, and
ef>> no steralization going on within _Nazi Germany_ for
ef>> "many years" prior to the concordat, simply because.....
ef>> There WAS NO NAZI GERMANY PRIOR TO 1933.
FR> Amazing. You don't happen to believe that the Jewish Holocaust
FR> didn't happen either, do you?
This whole thing has gotten silly.
I am not well read on Hitler and his personal views. However, it would
be difficult to convince me that Hitler did more than give lip service to
xtianity. it makes no difference to me wht he said for public consumption.
it makes no difference tht he reuired SS officers to be stian. It makes
no difference that he had the backing of some xtian churches. what went
on in his own mind is a lost secret that we will likely never know.
But more importantly, can you align xtians with Nazism? I don't know.
The experiment that you might could do is to ask the question "Had the Nazis
not picked the jews for extermination, would the jews have joined the Nazi
Party in large numbers just to be politically correct?" In other words,
did the fact that the Nazis ranks were filled with xitans mena that they
were the same or that just as an artifact of the situation that most nazia
were xitan as well.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:21:48
EID:dddc 208eb2a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65582f67
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 653f054b
JH> I notice Sue Armstrong posted her number recently, but voiced
JH> a reservation that she might be getting calls at 3 in the
JH> morning telling her she is going to go to Hell.
JH> I've saved the number... never can tell when you might be
JH> wide awake in the early morning hours.
Just for that, you're going to hell.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: NBC's Airing of "The Mysterious Origins of Man"
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:25:28
EID:e0eb 208eb320
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65583b9a
REPLY: 1:115/769.2 cd955d0f
BW> No Martin. I know for a fact, that you are a silly little fool.
BW> And as you being just a silly little fool, it doesn't do
BW> anything on my part to correct your error because you're
BW> totally hopeless. And I do predict you will remain hopeless
BW> until the day you die.
I've posted your little diatribe here many times. Only a fool would still
ahng on and claim that anyone here was stupid. Your whining doesn't chnge
the fact that you made Sagaon out to be a creationist.
BW> There you go lying your ass off again. I've never told a lie in
BW> here Martin. Of course, you fools claim otherwise, don't
There's another one.
BW> you? And I said from the very beginning to take good notes.
BW> Yet it's not my fault you can't follow simple first grade
BW> instructions. And yet since you didn't follow my directions,
BW> you have nothing to offer as evidence for your foolishness.
BW>
You come close to the twit filter. Just tkae your medicine like a man.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: ryan shaw
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 14 Apr 96 14:18:47
EID:857c 208e7240
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 1714e7c2
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Christopher Baker spewed forth the following ryan shaw:
> Would a all-powerful and loving god allow this to happen? One would
> think that a god with such qualifications would be quite able to get the
> young pilot through the thunderstorm and on to safety. Either that, or
> he has one very sick sense of `humor.'
CB> silly atheist. god moves in mysterious ways. man cannot judge god
CB> or discern his motives. [snicker]
In that case, god's a reall ass in my not so humble opinion. A real ass.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 14 Apr 96 02:41:11
EID:448e 208e1520
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e140652
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
MARK BARNETT spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MB>KDM>Like what?
MB>
MB>KDM>The Big Bang? Sorry, there's evidence for that.
MB>
MB>very shakey evidence.
Do you have any idea what the 4 K background temperature is? Or
why the universe is expanding? Both of those were predicted by the BB
theory, and both were shown to be true. If you've got a better
explanation, drag it out.
MB>KDM>Evolution? Evidence for that, too.
MB>
MB>Yes some really dotted lines, and a fake or two, but they have just
MB>about got it worked out now.
Huh? What do you call several hundreds of millions of years of fossils?
... If a tree falls in a forest and hits a mime, will either make a noise?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Defining death
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:17:05
EID:73e2 208c9220
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e1405ec
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
LEE WOOFENDEN spoke thusly to SUE ARMSTRONG:
LW>Here's what Sue Armstrong said to Rick Mcfarlane about Defining
LW>Death:
LW> LW> That's the "permanence" definition of death.
LW>
LW> RM> I guess we all can recognize that a skeleton is dead. But the
LW> RM> "dead dog" problem, as Lovelock put it (I've got these identical
LW> RM> twin dogs, lying here asleep at my feet, and one of them just
LW> RM> died, 2 seconds ago. What is the difference? What is it that
LW> RM> makes the one dog alive but the other dead?) is not an easy
LW> RM> question to answer.
LW> SA> Well, the obvious conclusion is, that the living dog still
LW> SA> respires, his heart still beats, cells still replace themselves,
LW> SA> there is still brain and neural activity, and it still digests
LW> SA> any food it might still have in its GI tract, while the dead dog
LW> SA> does none of these things. Also, the still-living dog will
LW> SA> eventually wake up and start doing his usual doggy things,
LW> SA> whereas the dead dog won't ever awaken.
LW>
LW>We know the results. The question is, what makes it be that way?
You're looking at the wrong scale, Lee. You're trying to show something
micro when death is due to something macro.
... Plastic explosives will be appropriate when truth and logic fail.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Flood impossibilities.
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:27:06
EID:0d5e 208c9360
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e1405fd
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
MIMI MILSTEIN spoke thusly to MICHAEL HARDY:
MM>Hey, don't put an attitude stamp on me. None of us know THE TRUTH.
MM>"Faith and/or illusions" have this in common that they are concepts
MM>of the mind, without any ironclad physical proof - which is why I
MM>used them opposite scientific methodology (which DOES demand proof).
No it doesn't. It can't, for that matter.
... Conservative Rule #4: Arguments are lost only to communists.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:28:07
EID:825a 208c9380
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e14060e
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
ELLIOTT FINESSE spoke thusly to STEVE WALLIS:
EF>In a message dated 04-07-96 Steve Wallis wrote to Fredric Rice:
EF>
EF>> Adolf hitler wasnt a Christian, he may have called himself one but
EF>> he as far from Christianity as you seem to be. Israel was told to
EF>> inhabit land, it was there's to possess.
EF>
EF>Not Christian but a theist just like you. Tell us the effective
EF>difference between Hitler and Moses. What did Hitler do that made
EF>him worse than Moses?
EF>
EF>We want your justification for god ordering the slaughter of innocent
EF>children and women captives. You keep ducking this point. I don't
EF>blame you, but all the same it makes you appear less than honest.
Shit, what did Hitler do that was worse then the OT God?
... Mary had a little ram - they've banned the video.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Lack of any evidence what
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:37:08
EID:3195 208c94a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e14061f
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to FREDRIC RICE:
AM>By Kevin Martin
AM>
AM> 1. Moon Dust
AM> 2. Magnetic Field
AM> 3. Fossil Record
AM> 4. Embryonic Recapitulation
AM> 5. Probability
AM> 6. Second Law of Thermodynamics
AM> 7. Vestigial Organs
AM> 8. Fossil and Fossil Fuel Formation
AM> 9. Punctuated Equilibria
AM> 10. Homology/Molecular Biology
AM> 11. Dating Methods
AM> 12. Dinosaurs
AM> 13. Sun's Diameter
AM> 14. Nile River's Overflow
AM> 15. Earth's Rotation
AM> 16. Written Record
AM> 17. The Bible
AM>
AM>
AM> 1. MOON DUST
AM>
AM> Meteoritic dust falls on the earth continuously, adding up to
AM>thousands, if not millions, of tons of dust per year. Realizing
AM>this, and knowing that the moon also had meteoritic dust piling
AM>up for what they thought was millions of years, N.A.S.A. scien-
AM>tists were worried that the first lunar ship that landed would
AM>sink into the many feet of dust which should have accumulated.
AM>
AM>However, only about one-eight of an inch of dust was found, indi-
AM>cating a young moon.
Wrong. One, yes, *one* geologist was worried about this. All his
colleagues disagreed with him. See _A Man on the Moon_, by Andrew
Chaiken. I'd give you a page number, but I returned the book to the
library a few days ago.
... Computer possessed! Re-boot with EXOR.SYS-- from Demonic Software
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: Mind control
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:40:09
EID:f154 208c9500
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e140630
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
LARRY JANSEN spoke thusly to ALL :
LJ>Did you ever notice how the Jews try make themselves look like
LJ>victims? This way they can subvert nations with impunity. They are
LJ>now "dragging out" the fabricated Holocaust again. Why don't we ever
LJ>hear about the "real" holocaust: where 65 million Chinese were
LJ>murdered by Mao, or the 40 million Russians who were slaughtered by
LJ>the Bolsheviks and the Jews. ... Catch the Blue Wave!
Go away, Mark. Go to a synagogue and spout this nonsense.
... Viking Rule of Acquisition #3: Never carry a dull axe.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.18
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Carl Linde
|Sub: Rules of conference
|Date: 14 Apr 96 02:38:10
EID:53c6 208e14c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 8e140641
TID: InterEcho 1.18 6E010747
CARL LINDE spoke thusly to ALL :
CL>Unfortunately, I don't seem to have the time that others do in this
CL>conference since it is a very prolific one. I have some other of my
CL>users that have asked if the rules for this conference have been
CL>posted lately. I have not seen them, but then I only get to browse
CL>every now and then.
Styx, the moderator, posts them monthly.
CL>Would it be possible to have the moderator please post a copy of the
CL>rules that I can put in my BBS files for others to look at to decide
CL>if they would like to become part of this free-for-all?
CL>I have noticed that anyone that posts anything remotely like a
CL>creationist theory seems to have to endure the rath of several
CL>protagonists. So those who boldy go here must have a slow fuse and a
CL>thick skin.
"Several protagonists?" Are we characters in a book now?
CL>What I have read so far would seem to indicate that there are a whole
CL>lot of mental midgets with closed minds. They seem to be unwilling to
CL>even look at anything that would upset their little apple cart (pun
CL>intended, even though it is a little one).
Yes, some of the fundies here are horrible that way.
CL>I see many that are
CL>willing to go to great lengths to quote their sources (many of which
CL>are from the same school of thought as they have) but are unwilling
CL>to even look at or discuss other sources that can be (and are) as
CL>viable and as provable as their points.
You have examples, I trust.
CL>This only goes to show me
CL>that they don't have all of their facilities open (only a couple of
CL>their brain cells are functioning).
Yes, it's horrible when people shut their brains off and embrace
fundamentalism.
CL>In regards to the language that some of these people (and I use the
CL>term loosely, VERY loosely) use, only shows that their vocabulary is
CL>indeed limited and not of sound moral character!!!
I'm probably one of the ones you're referring to. FYI, my
vocabulary is in the top 1 percent of the nation, and my moral character
is quite sound.
CL>It seems to be
CL>their last resort when they can't refute the idea presented or they
CL>are unwilling to carry on an inteligent conversation. If being a
CL>'potty-mouth' was a virtue, they would be 'Saints'.
Potty mouth? Not unless you can somehow demonstrate that there is
actually something wrong with those words.
CL>I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant!!
Well, it's a comparative thing. Hint: using words you don't like in no
way diminishes someone else's intelligence.
... A journey of a thousand miles begins with a cash advance.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Todd Andlar
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: hi
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:07:35
EID:1eb0 208e58e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 350ee51e
Hi! Well the debate is why haven't you called my board and if I
should purge you or not. It's me master of darkness.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Jerry Eakle
|Sub: Re: religions
|Date: 14 Apr 96 03:49:48
EID:4144 208e1e20
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 35040096
JE> Ok I am here to stir up some holy smoke. I am a reformed atheist.
I was w
JE> I was younger a christian until Junior High School or Middle School
dependi
JE> on where your at. I then became a atheist I have no idea why other
than I
JE> believe in Evolution. And still don't believe in immaculate conception.
I
JE> you can tell me how a woman can get pregnant from a nonhuman being a
spirit
JE> Or how a spirit can take the dirt from the earth and create a human
being.
JE> come when we are born why don't the men come from the earth and women
come
JE> from his rib bone? These may sound stupid but I think it was stuff
like th
JE> that caused me to become an atheist. I also am interested in why God
promo
JE> incest. When he made Adam and Eve they had Cain And Abel Cain went
to the
JE> land of Nod and got a wife. Who created the people of Nod? If it was
ince
JE> why did it not give the names of the people of Nod in the Genealogy
in the
JE> Bible?
So far, the only religion you have managed to trash, is Christianity. There
are many more religions out there worth exploring that do not believe any
of
what you seem to be upset about...
JE> I am also anti Catholic and Mormon and Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah's
JE> Witnesses. All four of them push religion on you. And the Mormons use
the
JE> Book of Mormon besides the Bible and that's considered a cult. I get
into
JE> arguments with Catholics because they feel there's is the only religion
the
JE> is. I consider myself Christian and am not affiliated to any church
like
JE> Methodist, Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran. Christian is my religion.
I am
JE> avid watcher of Trinity Broadcasting Network and they have this one
couple
JE> husband is Jeff Fenholt and he used to be a rock musician with Black
Sabbat
JE> and his wife Reeni Fenholt is a reformed Catholic. I like watching
their
JE> show. Ok enough for now.
And what are these televangelists doing except for selling religion and
taking
your cash just the same as the JW's or the Mormons? What is the big
difference?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: William Hsu
|Sub: Re: Survey
|Date: 14 Apr 96 03:55:43
EID:3e8f 208e1ee0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 35040097
WH> ~SURVEY ON VIEWS OF SIN AND LIFE AFTER DEATH~
WH>
WH> Age: Gender:
38 and female
WH> Denomination/Church group:
Native
WH> Do you or your church emphasize on one particular belief or some particular
WH> beliefs? (Yes/No)
Yes
WH> If so, what are they?
In basics--that everything in the universe has a place...
WH> How would you define sin?
I wouldn't. It's an Xian concept.
WH> Do you believe that there is a relationship between sin and suffering?
(Yes
WH> Please explain why:
Nope
WH> Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? (Yes/No)
No
WH> If Yes, on what basis do you believe people will be chosen for heaven?
This so-called religion survey is only covering the Xian viewpoint!
WH> Is it possible for non-Christians to go to Heaven? (Yes/No)
You mean after 2,000 years of oppression the Xians still think they ARE
going
to heaven?
WH> Please describe what you think Heaven and Hell are like:
How do I describe what I don't believe in?
Why is it, as soon as someone wants to say/survey/complain about religions
all
they ever come up with is xian concepts? Has it occurred to you that most
of
the world is NOT xian?
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:18
EID:03af 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b47d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: Claims of deity construct wgah'nagl
fhtagn.
JG> First you have to define what god is. God is a spirit ! God is the
JG> truth! God is the spirit of truth and rightness and love .
PS> Are you going to start addressing reality, or are you going to skid
PS> into metaphysical claptrap that you can't substantiate?
JG> It is not a question of "substantiating" it, it is a question of
JG> "defining" it as such. That is MY definition of God. Addressing
Bully for you. Your definition of God seems to be a very vague and
nebulous one.
JG> whose reality ? Yours ? Your reality of denial that anything that
Reality is reality, and not a subjective property. Perception is another
thing entirely.
JG> is not a physical reality, does not exist. The reality of your life
Jim, you really must stop making these assumptions. Out of sheer curiosity
and perhaps a little mean-spirited fun, on what grounds do you base the
claim that I don't believe in anything that I can't see or feel?
JG> that then must be completely lacking in love , and peace, and joy,
JG> and spiritual TRUTH simply because you refuse to give credence to
JG> anything that is not physical in nature? You can have your reality and
Are you finished making outrageous claims about the contents and/or
quality of my life, Jim?
JG> You have your concept of reality, and I have mine. I think that your
JG> concept of reality that denies the reality of love flies in the
Put on the brakes there, chummer. Where have I denied the reality of
love? Think hard. Leaf through your archives, if you keep any. When
you've come up with the answer (I assure you that there is indeed an
answer and it doesn't at all match with your perception), then let me
know.
JG> The whole question of existence and life and mans perception of it are
JG> wide open to interpretation. You choose to limit yourself to the
JG> physical perception of "reality". And the 5 sense of man are so VERY
Really? And why do you make this faulty interpretation on exactly what
I base my perceptions of reality on?
JG> soomething we can see with our 5 senses. So don't talk to me about
JG> "reality". You have chosen to believe that all that exists is what you
I'll talk to you about reality all I like, Jim. While I certainly agree
with you that there are and probably always will be things that humanity
can't detect with our senses or with the technology at our disposal, I
can still talk about what we *can* detect. A limited picture of reality?
Perhaps--but it is the best one we have at present. Anything is possible,
Jim--but that doesn't mean that everything is worth scrutiny.
JG>But it still remains that whatever exists, came from somewhere. Write
JG> God is a spirit. God is NOT a physical being. But it does not mean
JG> that God does not exist anymore than saying the spirit of Christmas
JG> doesn't exist. The spirit of kindness.
Bang. Instantaneous claim. Your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
Forgive me if I feel compelled to disagree with you.
JG> "And the word was WITH god.
JG> For me God is the TRUTH God is the RIGHT
And I can see that we have agreed to disagree.
JG> god is LOVE God is all that is good. So no matter what our perception
Question: Why limit goodness by calling it "God"?
JG> is..."what is truth ? whose truth ? your truth ? my truth ? ...well
JG> god is THE TRUTH ! We may never know THE TRUTH or we may know THE
Goodness equals truth? What a remarkably interesting idea.
JG> Whatever THE TRUTH is, that is spirit of God. That is what we must
An odd definition, and bound to get you talked about. How do you know that
the truth is the spirit of God, Jim? Or do you know?
JG> Here is another concept. Everything that exists, man had to define.
So
JG> all that exists is just a definition by man. But of course before we
Here I must disagree, but that should come as no surprise. What if
something as yet undiscovered exists? Does it exist even though we
haven't defined it? Or are you reducing the whole of what may be unknown
to the status of the cat in Schroedinger's box?
JG> exist. But now they do and man has defined them as such. And man has
JG> declared that the good is GOD. and the EVIL is Satan. But they are
Not this man. My definition is different from yours. Does this mean that
God isn't really good, and Satan really isn't evil? Or is there some
other possibility?
JG> happened on the way to evolution. Man evolved into a SPIRITUAL BEING
by
JG> definition. Read the definition of the word spirit. And not only did
we
Did we? Or are we really no more sentient than cats or chimps?
JG> and REAL ! All this arguing about whether or not the stories in the
JG> bible actually took place, or were metaphoric, or even just made up,
JG> just detracts from the reality of the content of the teachings and
JG> concepts expressed in the bible.
And what is your point, exactly? That the Bible contains truth? This was
not really open to question; that the Bible is the source of THE TRUTH
? That *is* open to question.
PS> Not literally, one hopes. But the GoE story goes on to suggest that
PS> eating from the tree was forbidden by God. Why did God want to keep
us
PS> without the knowledge of good and evil?
JG> BUT what if there was no good and evil before Adam and Eve ate from
JG> the tree ? See it is a metaphor. Maybe the very concept of good and
What is there if there is no good or evil?
JG> If man has no concept of evil and nothing has been defined as a "sin",
JG> then it doesn't exist. However, at some point in time, the concept
This argument carries into semantics a bit. Let's sit down for a moment
and look at an example of what your statement can be:
You state that God is a spirit and is THE TRUTH . That is
your concept of God.
I state that God, in all likelihood, is a mythological being like any
other deity--though the possibility exists that he/she/it is a genuine
entity that can exist independent of the imagination. That is my
concept of God.
Our concepts differ, to say the least. As far as I can tell, there is no
commonly-accepted definition of what exactly this god thing is. Does that
mean that God doesn't exist?
JG> So the question being asked in this tree story, is where did evil
JG> first come from ? Why do men lie ? What was the first lie ? Now
JG> if we define God as Truth, then the first time man went against
JG> god/truth was the first sin.
As best as can be seen, evil is what happens when someone or something
intentionally harms another in the course of pursuing what that someone
or something sees as being to its benefit. That's one definition. It
suggests by extension that evil can be a threat to the species as a whole,
even if not a very large threat. That itself is another definiton. Why
do people do this? Possibly because they weigh the benefits against the
consequences and decide that the benefits win out.
In a sense, evil is a subjective term. Americans usually think of killing
Nazi soldiers during WWII as being good; a Nazi soldier would doubtlessly
disagree.
JG> As far as I am concerned, I AM addressing the issues. God has already
JG> been defined, 10,000 years ago. God exists, get used to it, deal with
JG> it.
Have I ever claimed otherwise, Jim?
JG> As I said before, some people might choose money as their god, or sex
JG> or power.
JG> Sociopaths ?
Yes. Sociopaths. Fascinating and horrifying things.
JG> They don't care what the spirit of god is saying to them. They aren't
Your opinion. Many sociopaths, by your definitions, say that they are
the spirit of their god. What you're defining as God is, as far as is
known, wholly different than their analogues to God. The spirit of
their god (and who is to say that their god isn't the real one?)
communicates with them regularly, and they are well aware of it and
quite agreeable to it.
... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. Or so I'm told.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 14 Apr 96 22:29:20
EID:c2e6 208eb3a0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3171b487
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Kevin D. Mckenzie Claims of deity construct wgah'nagl
fhtagn.
PS> KDM> dropped math, so I'm down to only two more credited hours then
PS> KDM> I actually need. Of course, due to Case math, this means I'm
PS>