God Damned Fundies!
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 08:09:00
EID:805d 20914120
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C75A7A
AS> Well, you couldn't get more bureaucratic than the FORMER Soviet
AS> Union.
PS> One hopes not, for humanity's sake.
Back when the phone company was a monopoly, Lenny Bruce said, "What's so
hot about the Soviet Union? Just like one big phone company."
PS> True. And our continued involvement in these spots will not do much
PS> for our government. The scene in Vietnam was a simple civil war
PS> following their gaining independence from the French.
Yes; hopefully the fall of the Cold War will result in less such siding
with virtual dictatorships simply because the opposing side is backing
someone else.
AS> I hope it lasts and the wars get smaller and smaller, not bigger
AS> and bigger.
PS> Me too, but people are stupid enough that we're bound for another big
PS> war sometime soon.
I dunno; without the Cold War, it seems nationalism is fragmenting society
more and more. As long as there are no interlinking chains of alliances,
like that which started World War I, we may be okay.
... Smash forehead on keyboard to continue...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 08:00:00
EID:9583 20914000
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C763DA
AS> I dunno; I always liked fencing, although I wasn't fast enough to
AS> be good at it. And as Dorothy L. Sayers has her hero, Lord Peter
RH> Hey! Me too. I just missed third place in a statewide tournament
RH> while in college.
Congratulations! That means you could have cut me to ribbons. I was more
enthusiastic than fast.
RH> Now, of course, it does me no good to assume a fencing pose; I make
RH> a BETTER target sideways.
I too have to wage a constant battle of the bulge. And I think the
bulge is winning...
... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler was a Chris
|Date: 17 Apr 96 08:03:00
EID:6e7c 20914060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C770DC
FR> I was thinking of some C. S. Lewis, actually. Lewis wanted to claim
FR> that Nazi Germany was a war of Christians against the Nazis and yet
I'm
FR> told that when you evaluate his line of reasoning, one's left with the
FR> conclusion that he's actually talking about how it was Christians
FR> fighting Christians yet being descrived otherwise to escape political
FR> fallout.
Honestly curious here. Who told you that? I've read a lot of Lewis, and
although he sometimes talks about German barbarism during the war years,
I
don't really recall something that is close to what you are talking about.
If you can scrounge up a title, at least, it might help. I'm not saying
he
didn't or couldn't; I just don't recall it offhand, but he wrote many
books.
... If it isn't eternal, it's eternally out of date.--C.S. Lewis
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRIS
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:09:00
EID:6e7c 20910920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C77E4C
as> Not at all, as the source Elliot quoted...
as> AND WHICH YOU POINTEDLY IGNORED...proves.
FR> Not at all, as the sources _I_ provided came straight from Hitler's
FR> mouth and from the pens of a great many Christian church leaders at
the
FR> time.
So what? No one is disputing that Hitler had support both from some
Churches within Germany, or, to its shame, to a sort of "benign neglect"
from the Pope of the time. I lost my archived references in the fire, but
I posted here months ago...and I know Dan has it archived...about the
wartime Pope's blindness towards, and sometimes favoritism towards, the
Axis powers. (Considering that nine-tenths of the population of the
Vatican are Italian, I suppose we shouldn't be suprised. But the Pope
BEFORE him several times denounced the agressions by the fascist powers
in
no uncertain terms. It was, unfortunately, a classic case of the wrong
person in power at the wrong time, rather as if Chamberlain had SUCCEEDED
Churchill and had become England's wartime Prime Minister. (Those same
archives indicate that a very few bishops did condemn the taking of the
Jews in no uncertain terms, especially in occupied France, and a bishop
in
the United States drew some censure from the Vatican by criticizing the
fascist powers before World War II.) The Pope was officially neutral, but
there IS reason to believe that he at least heard the reports of the
deathcamps and did not shelter the Jews as he should have...he evidently
was much more scared of the communist "menace" than he was of the fascist
one. It is a shame and a blot on the Church.
But it evades the issue.
We are talking about Hitler's OWN faith here. No one disputes he was
raised a Roman Catholic. But his contemporaries observed he was no regular
attender of church services (i.e., the John Gunther quote you
disputed--and Gunther was a keen traveller renowned for his "Inside"
series of books in the 30s and 40s for excellently researched material
about the international scene.) and Elliot has repeatedly shown you a plan
driven up to replace the Christian churches with a "National Reich
Church".
Yes, Hitler repeatedly said he was a Christian. Well, Fred, he
repeatedly said he would honor the treaty he signed with Chamberlain,
too...until he announced it was "just a scrap of paper". Just like he said
he only wanted to make his national borders safe...and then invaded
France. Just like he said he would honor his accord with Stalin...and then
invaded Russia.
Are we seeing a PATTERN here?
I wouldn't necessarily trust ANY politician's statement of faith just on
that alone, since often it is a way of garnering votes and support. And
considering one of his main allies, Italy, is overwhelmingly Catholic, he
would alienate one of his main allies in times of war, of COURSE he wasn't
going to be STUPID enough to renounce it.
The question is, was Hitler consistent in this? Do his deeds and actions
proclaim his belief in Christianity? That's where the evidence of Gunther
(no regular church attendance), the evidence of Elliott (how he was
planning to eventually replace the churches with a "National Reich Church"
with "Mein Kampf" instead of the Bible, etc.)...are these consistent with
his claims to be a Christian, or is it rather consistent to his habitual
lying for political purposes? I submit the latter.
And for me, the crowning argument is that Hitler, though raised as a
Roman Catholic killed himself. Unless he was given last rites, that is an
automatic ticket to damnation, in Roman Catholic faith. Without confession
or last rites, there is no forgiveness. So, unless you think Hitler WANTED
to be tortured throughout eternity, and voluntarily did that in payment
for his sins (i.e., he WANTED damnation) then he showed...as clearly as
possible...his disbelief in the whole Catholic worldview.
dc> You have done one of the 3 unpardonable offences in HS
dc> in questioning Fredric on "Hitler wasn't an xian".
FR> I actually posted some fresh debunkings of the claim.
LOL!!! All quotes from Hitler. And for every one you produce, we could
find one saying he meant no harm to the Polish people, or would honor the
treaty with Chamberlain.
as> What, quotes from Hitler?
FR> How typical. Why not just admit that being a Christian does nothing
FR> to turn a murdering tyrany into a human being? Why not just admit that
FR> you have read the truth, don't like the truth, and filtered it out
FR> entirely?
As for the former--AND LISTEN, FRED!!!!--I have never, repeat NEVER said
that a Christian cannot be a murdering tyrant. I said REPEATEDLY you could
call Torquemada a Christian, or Vlad Tepes the Impaler. We can produce
quite a Rogue's Gallery of Christian "monsters", murdering tyrants. I have
NEVER said that being a Christian made you immune from such. As for the
LATTER---physician, HEAL THYSELF!!!! Because you are saying "IS NOT!" over
and over again to Elliot's evidence in a display of self-denial and
cowardice MOST disgusting. I am not rejecting Hitler as a Christian
because he was a murderer, indeed a mass murderer. I am rejecting Hitler,
because his actions show that his protestations of same are a consummate
lie, JUST as it shows he is a consummate liar. It is YOU who are dodging
the truth. I see it. JJ Hitt sees it. Marty Goldberg sees it.
FR> If you would like to be debunked yet once again, please let me know
FR> and I'll provide the quotes yet once again -- affording you another
FR> chance to ask rhetorically "what, quotes from Hitler?"
Go ahead. Do you want to be swamped with quotes of Hitler's OTHER
lies? Go ahead, Fred. I've got time.
FR> Hitler's actions show conclusively that he was a Christian as well --
FR> unless you care to deny the bloody history of Christianity as so many
FR> Christians do.
*Sigh* Fred, I will freely admit that much of Hitler's antisemitism was
echoed by no less a Christian than Martin Luther himself. I will freely
admit that many Christian kings and priests instituted antiSemitic purges
in the name of their religion, and such is, and will always be, a blot on
the side of Christianity. Similarly, Hitler's massacres have found echoes
in witch trials, in the Holy Wars of the Reformation, in the Crusades, in
the Inquisition. All freely conceded.
It is NOT his bloodyness, NOR his antisemitism, NOR his murderousness,
that disqualifies him as a Christian. It is merely...his actions. His
instituting plans for a "National Reich Church"
Let's quote Elliot again, shall we?
Despite all this, his actions show pretty conclusively he was not a
Christian. Most who offer evidence or reasons why Hitler wasn't a
Christian point to his genocidal tendencies as being in conflict with
Christian doctrine.
I don't buy this since Christian anti Semitism had a long and bloody
history (i.e., his actions were not unlike those of European Christians
historically). Rather, Hitler wasn't a Christian because his behavior
really was antithetical.
The nazis planned to destroy Christianity in Germany, and started taking
over churches to that end, forming the "National Reich Church."
Some of it's 30 point program - and what made Hitler a non-Christian:
"To exterminate irrevocably .... the strange and foreign Christian faiths
imported into Germany imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800"
Interesting. Which certainly doesn't follow the CATHOLIC pattern.
"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and
dissemination of the Bible in Germany"
(AL) Is it your contention that a good Christian tries to stop the
spreading of the Word? What of the Great Commission?
"The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes,
Bibles, and pictures of saints"
(Al) Hmmm. Would you call a movement that strips from alters crosses,
Bibles, and pictures of those it regards saints...as a Christian movement?
What quaint Orwellian doublethink.
"On the day of its (the National Reich Churches) foundation, the
Christian cross must be removed from all churches, cathedral, and chapels
and must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika"
(AL) You think maybe Hitler thought the cross on which Jesus died was a
swastika, Fred? Is this the action of someone who thinks himself
Christian?
Source: Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York:
Touchstone, 1959. p.240
(AL) A historian with impeccable credentials, right up there with Tolland
and others. It is the above that you are COWARDLY evading.
(End of Elliot's points.)
FR> Hitler _was_ a Christian, Al. It's time to get over it.
Fred. You are just looking more and more foolish to the echo as a whole,
with this obsession. It's time to get over it.
... Deja Moo - the feeling you've heard this bull before
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: APOLOGY
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:09:00
EID:e51d 20910920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7990E
AS> Apology not accepted, for there's nothing to apologize FOR. We're
AS> friends, Mike. The only awkward thing is that Lynda and Marilyn are
AS> friends too. If I felt torn or pained, it's because I value you
AS> ALL--and that is an awkward position I created, not you.
MH> Well heck. Lynda won't let me apologize, you won't let me apologize.
MH> Now I've got this perfectly good apology all ready to go, and nobody
MH> will take it! :)
Try Marilyn. Of course, she won't READ it, but she wants one anyway...
... You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you freak.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: BADMOUTH
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:05fc 20914880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7A214
MH> As I read her message, I didn't take it that she was necessarily
MH> renouncing her Christian faith, but that she was renouncing any part
MH> in corporate expression of it, for lack of people sympathetic to her
MH> perspective. What I was actually trying to convey -- and obviously
MH> failed at -- was that such a break was not necessary, that her faith
MH> was genuine and efficacious, even if unorthodox. I was trying to
MH> encourage her to find a worshiping body where she fit in, not leave
MH> the fold.
MH> Obviously, no one got that out of what I said, so I failed miserably.
Welllll...I must admit I didn't get that from it. Hey, we all say things
one way, and have other people get something totally different over.
MH> That was a bad move. I was in particularly sour mood that night, and
MH> fed up with the less edifying posts I was consistently getting from
a
MH> handful of people. I should have let it slide, though.
It's funny, though...I go in regular religious echoes, and they seem so
dull, now. Holy Smoke is silly, but DULL it ain't!
AS> I'm trying as hard as I can not to lose
AS> EITHER you or Lynda (or for that matter, Marilyn) as friends, and
AS> trying not to lie. And I may end up losing you all.
MH> You have no worries on that score from me, and I suspect from Lynda
MH> as well. :) About Marilyn I can't say.
I'm pretty sure of Marilyn. But I don't want to aggravate her mood swings,
either.
AS> The last thing I want to say is this: when Paul said, "You were not
AS> baptized in Paul's name, etc.etc. but in Christ's name"...similarly,
AS> we are not followers of Spong or Mack, or Lewis or Habermaas. We are
AS> followers of JESUS, and must never forget that, and not let lesser
AS> issues divide us.
MH> True, and a good point to make.
Thanks.
... I don't have an attitude problem--it's supposed to be like this
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: BRANHAM
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:03:00
EID:252d 20914860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7A840
AS> "But finally," I said, "we will overcome and will be one of the winner
AS> in the war between us and Germany.
SA> Sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking to me.
Well, this is a collection of sermons, he may or may NOT have predicted
that. Who's to know.
AS> got the car right now, It's already invented. They've got the car. And
AS> I said then, "Oh, how science will progress in that day!"
SA> Big deal. Futurists were predicting those sorts of things in the 20s.
Riiight. But of course, how much were they believed by the general
population.
AS> But there'll be a powerful woman! Now, remember! This is on tape, too.
AS> A powerful woman, great woman, she will either be President, or it'll
AS> be a woman representing the Catholic Church (which I think it is) will
AS> take over here someday and she will rule this country. This nation is
a
AS> woman's nation. Flag was made by a woman, it's number thirteen. She
AS> started out, thirteen stars, thirteen stripes, thirteen colonies.
AS> Everything's thirteen, thirteen, thirteen, right on down. Thirteen
AS> stars on her silver dollar now. Everything's a thirteen. It's number
AS> thirteen, and appears in the chapter of Revelation. Completely
AS> thirteen! Everything is "woman, woman, woman, woman, woman," right on
AS> down. And she took over all the offices. She's took over Hollywood.
AS> She's took over everything there is, equal rights with the man, votes
AS> with the man, cusses like a man, drinks like a man, anything else. And
AS> just bait for the Catholic Church, for the worship of a woman! They're
AS> already worshipping a woman, anyhow."
SA> Typical. Got a problem? Blame it on women. Now I know where Germy
SA> gets his philosophies.
Well, actually, this is Grigor-Scott's Prophet. You can now see why
Grigor-Scott's so warped. BTW, I saw the post to "ALL" where you blamed
this sort of thinking on Christian mindsets. Speaking from a Christian
mindset...
We're not too thrilled with him, either.
... **** VirusScan - "Windows found: Remove it? (Y/y)"?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: PERSPECTIVES
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:e0f2 20914880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7B0EC
AS> aliens. But if one brings back a little device that shoots out a
AS> death ray, I MIGHT take him a little more seriously...
MM> However, one of them may claim they've had a alien encounter and the
MM> other may call it a religious experience and a third may swear it was
a
MM> vision quest or a prophetic dream.
Don't you think the opinion of the person it happened to should take
precedence? After all that is who it happened to...
AS> (Marilyn HATES that analogy.)
MM> Hmmm is Marilyn the one sent to bed at 8? I agree that diety must
MM> approach us in a form we can deal with and in a attitude that we can
MM> comprehend.... different strokes for different folks.
No, Marilyn Burge on this echo. Although in context, I can understand why
you would think so. I have three boys. I always wanted a little girl, but
after three tries...and they say the male really determines the sex...I
get the feeling Nature is trying to tell me something.
... Nothing improves your driving like a police car following you.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler: Christian
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:c814 20914880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7C456
dr> Historians, of course, know otherwise: Hitler was
dr> a Christian. He stated so many, many times.
FR> Not to mention the fact that we have documents from official Christian
FR> church masters who were in absolute agreement with what Adolf Hitler
FR> was doing.
Of course, you are absolutely right in that. But that is not the same as
not recognizing the lying nature of the opportunistic Hitler. To say that
a good segment of the Christian church supported Hitler is undoubtedly
true. Just as a good segment condemned his actions. Neither explains the
30-point program that Hitler was intending to institute to take out Bible
and crosses from the "National Reich church", and to purge the "strange
and foreign" religion of Christianity, nor his lack of going to church
with any regularity as an adult, nor his suicide without last rites
extended.
FR> I expect fundies to deny the truth. Elliott would appear to be a
FR> heathen, however.
An honest one, as many are. I hope I can number you among them. But the
way you keep evading in all honesty makes me wonder.
... That statement is true -> <- That statement is false
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: DON'T READ THE BIBLE!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:05:00
EID:04e4 209148a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7D266
FR> can't remain a believer. Anyone who learns scientific
FR> method and critical thinking and _employ_ both can't be a
FR> believer in the mythologies.
as> I can keep this up as long as you can, Fred.
FR> And continue to be debunked every time.
Where? I must have missed that post. Oh, you mean THIS...?
as> Roger Bacon, who first formulated the idea of observation
as> and experimentation against theory, i.e., the scientific
as> theory in its essence, was a Christian monk.
Your reading comprehension would appear to be mostly faulty, Al.
The
FR> fact that I "underscored" the word "employ" above doesn't seem to have
FR> registered in your brain. Perhaps it couldn't make it past your
FR> preconceptions?
Sure it did. That's why I mentioned not only Bacon, but Copernicus,
Newton, Mendel, and Lemaitre. But...dear me...you seem to have "forgotten"
to mention THEM.
FR> Would you like for me to explain for you in simpler terms?
Please do, Fred. While you're at it, why don't you explain to me why
you EVADED mentioning the OTHERS I mentioned...such as Copernicus, a canon
of the Church, Sir Isaac Newton, who wrote long defenses of the Christian
faith, Gregor Mendel, a Christian monk who formulated the basic laws of
inheritance in genetics, and Lemaitre, who formulated the Big Bang
theory...and a Roman Catholic priest. Are you saying they didn't employ
scientific reasoning? That's odd. Much of your science DERIVES from them.
Or what ARE you saying, Fred? PLEASE use simple terms...I would hate for
you to misstate yourself.
Fred, I would really like to respect you, as I do your brother, or Dan
Ceppa, or Marty Goldberg, or Elliot, or Dr. Leipzig, or Sue or Marilyn or
JJ or David or Preston or Katherine...and many other non-Christians on
this echo. But it is tactics like THIS that make me wonder.
I would hate for "doing a Fred" to become proverbial for evading the
question, as "do a Hector" became proverbial for cutting-and-pasting
answers.
I would really like to like you, Fred. Actually answering the points is
a little more work, but trust me, rewarding in the end.
... Integrity is like virginity: you only lose it once.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:06:00
EID:9f21 209148c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7DAB8
FR> We already have. It's called "The Religious Reich."
as> If you would read more of the posts, you would find my opinion
as> of Reed and his group is not substantially higher than yours.
FR> Except that employing the label "reich" denotes a connection to a
FR> certain "third reich" we all know and... love. Are you, at least,
Sure. Fascism should be stamped out, whether under a religious guise or
not. Do you read Heinlein? Do you remember Nehemiah Scudder?
FR> willing to admit that Adolf Hitler was in fact a Christian as he stated
FR> and as the the majority churches of Nazi Germany agreed?
I'd love to, Fred, if it were the case, as I freely concede such maniacs
as Torquemada or Vlad Tepes or the Russian boyars who hunted peasants and
Jews for sport were. It's not his bloodiness that excludes it, but it is
his own actions, or lack of them, that shows it--the 30 point plan to
purge the "National Reich Church" of vestiges of Christianity as mentioned
by noted historian Shirer, the lack of chuchgoing mentioned by
international affairs expert John Gunther, and his final act of suicide,
without last rites given, which in the Catholic worldview in which he was
raised, would condemn him to eternal damnation. Certainly many of his
followers were...perhaps Mussolini was (notice he did not commit suicide)
and it is perfectly true that the majority of churches within Nazi
Germany...and for that matter, Italy (including, I am sad to say, the
wartime Pope) and maybe half those in France thought. But then...
Most of the world thought Hitler would honor Chamberlain's "peace in our
time!" also. I doubt if even HITLER knew what he believed...he went from
publicly avowing Christianity to privately consulting horoscopes, and
claiming in the music of Wagner's Ring trilogy, about the Teutonic gods,
he caught "echoes of another world". But I certainly cannot think he was
a
committed Christian in his own mind, no matter how much he lied, for
political favor, especially since Italy (with the Vatican inside it) was
his staunchest ally...
... I'm sorry, I didn't intend to confuse you with facts. ___ Blue Wave/QW
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian.
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:fa92 20914880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7F2A0
FR> Which is exactly true and which evidences the fact that he was a
FR> Christian. He was doing things that Christian "leaders" had done for
a
FR> dozen centuries before him -- no difference. To demand that Hitler
FR> wasn't a Christian is to demand that all the Christians who came before
FR> him weren't Christians either.
FR> Are you willing to defend that position?
That's ridiculous, Fred. That's like saying if the mostly nontheist
revoltunaries in the French Revolution instituted a purge and a Terror,
than every such revolution that consumes and kills the old guard is
similarly nontheist. We freely admit that for a dozen centuries Christian
leaders have been guilty of quite horrible examples of antiSemitism and
massacre. But that doesn't make Hitler a Christian, any more than us both
reading, say, Larry Niven, makes OUR theism or nontheism the same. One
does not equate the other.
ed> According to John Gunther in his book, INSIDE EUROPE,1938 ed.,:
ed> *He was born and brought up a Roman Catholic. But lost faith
ed> early and attends no religious services of any kind.
FR> That's contrary to what Hitler said and to what Christian churches
FR> were saying and doing at the time. Contrary to John Gunther, Adolf
FR> Hitler remained a Christian until his suicide.
If you would think about how that suicide so clearly shows he does not
believe in the Roman Catholic faith he was brought up in...
FR> Your source has got many things wrong. I can't help but wonder
FR> whether your source is trying to deny the fact that Hitler was a
FR> Christain due to the mistaken belief that being a Christian somehow
FR> stops someone from being a murdering tyrant and a despot.
That IS a mistaken belief. There have been many Christian murdering
tyrants and despots. But we cannot hold Hitler among them, by his own
actions. And John Gunther was a well known expert on international affairs
in the thirties and forties.
FR> He's meeting with Christian churches, talking with Christian
FR> leaders... That hardly sounds like he's fighting a religious war now
FR> does it?
Red herring and avoiding the question. No one here claims that Hitler was
fighting a religious war, save in the sense that he was wiping out Jews
(which, judging by what qualifies one as a Jew under Hitler's Germany, is
more a racial than a religious stance.) although it appears from the
30-point program Shirer mentions, he would have eventually moved on the
churches. But at the time, the goodwill of Italy and the Vatican were too
important...politically.
ed> Gunther contends that Hitler biggest priority was the unification of
ed> Germany, there had to be a removal from the Reich any competition which
ed> was international like the Vatican and Judaism.
FR> And he used the tools that Christianity provided to do it with. No
FR> argument here. The lesson to be learned from the bloody history of
FR> Christianity is that one may use deity beliefs as a weapon of mass
FR> destruction against innocent people for the unification and
FR> consolidation of power and control.
FR> I don't dispute this fact. It evidences myself correct.
Ahhh...you don't dispute that he was removing from the Reich any
competition which was international like the Vatican. THANK you, Fred. But
your own statement than, evidences yourself INCORRECT, right?
ed> Some of Hitler's followers turned to Paganism.
ed> They found the Norse myths to their liking.
FR> "They [Nazis] fiercely rejected accusations that they were
FR> atheists. Himmler declared that atheism would not be tolerated in
FR> the ranks of the SS" (Paul Johnson's "A History of Christianity,"
FR> p. 486).
Surely YOU, of all people, are not equating paganism with atheism? See
what Ed said..."Some of Hitler's followers turned to Paganism..." Then see
what you quote, "They (Nazis) fiercely rejected accusations they were
atheists." I think you owe an apology to Katherine Wintersnight and Sean
Mccollough on that score, don't you? Paganism is not the same as atheism.
REALLY, Fred, you are making mistakes I would expect from the most fundy
of the fundy!
FR> Looks like your source got that one wrong as well.
FR> -=-
FR> If you would like some _secular_ sources which offer the truth about
FR> Adolf Hitler, please let me know and I'll type them up for you.
HE QUOTED ONE, FRED. Look up John Gunther's INSIDE EUROPE. While you're
at it, look at Shirer's RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH. Neither of which
are affiliated with a church.
... Bookstores: The financial black hole of my wallet.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: I find it amazing
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:03:00
EID:24fa 20910060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7F980
FR> I'm finding it amazing that so many Christians are unwilling to
FR> accept the fact that Adolf Hitler was a Christian. I expected fundies
FR> to deny the truth and yet even Al is pretending otherwise. The
I suppose I should be complimented by "EVEN AL"....
FR> phenomena continues year after year, in fact, as Christians are
FR> exposed, caught, or reported on television.
FR> I can't help but wonder what these people want to pretend are "TRUE
FR> Christians." It would appear to be that a "TRUE Christian" is the
FR> person making the claim and that everyone else is a "FALSE Christian."
*Sigh* If murder and despotry and terror disqualified one from being a
Christians, I would have to say Torquemada, the Borgia Popes, Vlad Tepes,
etc. were all not "true Christians". I do not. Many Christians have
misread the Scriptures and used them to justify horrible actions, and no
one with a grain of sense pretends otherwise. But you STILL have not
answered Elliot about Shirer's description of Hitler's "30-point plan" for
making a "National Reich Church" which would purge the churches of
crosses, Bibles, and the "strange and foreign" beliefs that came to
Germany in "800 AD"---i.e., the Christian faith. Until you can answer
that...show that Shirer was mistaken or wrong (good luck! He is a very
well respected historian) than your claim is merely wishful thinking on
your part.
The only way to get yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself
is to say something like, "Well, even if Hitler may not have been a
Christian, he absorbed much of the venom he spouted from Christian
sources, like Martin Luther's anti-semitism and the religious intolerance
of the Holy Wars." THAT I would not dispute a bit. I am offering that to
you as a way to save face. I suggest you take it.
... Intolerance must not be tolerated
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: NBC's Airing of "The Myst
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:08:00
EID:7284 20910100
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C80614
BW> "The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a
BW> Great Designer; perhaps some species are destroyed when the
AS> COULD. Not IS. Because if you keep on reading...
BW> Designer becomes dissatisfied with them, and new experiments
BW> are attempted on an improved design. But this notion is a
AS> BUT...please note, Billy.
BW> little disconcerting. Each plant and animal is exquistely made;
BW> should not a supremely competent Designer have been able to
BW> make the intended variety from the start? The fossil record
AS> Exactly. If God were personally directing the course of nature,
AS> why would there be extinctions? Surely He would get it right
AS> the first time.
BW> Says who? Have you ever met any intelligent beings whomever got
BW> things right the first time? Not even the God in the Bible was ever
BW> this good. Besides some Bible experts explains that it was God's
BW> Sons (Angels) who had taken part in the creations. Do I buy the
BW> Bible's story? Well I know it came from somewhere, exact source
BW> remains unknown.
Billy, the idea that angels or demiurges are actually behind Creation,
hence the flawed state of the world is an old one...older than
Christianity, harking back to Plato, I believe. It is in essence a Gnostic
idea, which John explicitedly warns believers against...if you are a
believer. It led to such labyrythine ways of thinking as the many and
confusing Gnostic demiurges, to some of the Kabbalah, and can be seen
today in an even more confused form in Mormonism, where we all have the
capacity to become demiurges.
AS> Now, if He set the stage of a gradual evolution, and made that
AS> part of the process, that would more fit what we see...or there
AS> could be no Creator at all. Either is possible. But to deny
AS> evolution altogether is folly.
BW> implies trial and error, an inability to anticipate the future,
BW> features inconsistent with an efficient Great Designer
BW> (although not with a Designer of a more remote and indirect
BW> temperament)." - Carl Sagan
AS> Right. Sagan is conceding the possibility of a more remote and
AS> indirect God, who allows evolution to develop the lifeforms on
AS> Earth. That is what I personally believe (although that doesn't
AS> make Him disinterested.) By the same token, that does not mean
AS> Sagan seriously believes in the possibility, just that he will
AS> acknowledge that it is not precluded by what we know. Only
AS> someone who has read a very little of Sagan would EVER go away
AS> with an impression that Sagan believed in a Diety.
BW> Nor have I ever claimed otherwise. Although I have seen signs from
BW> Carl Sagan that he doesn't necessarily believe we are alone either.
BW> Sagan also admits, lifeforms could well be something other than
BW> carbon based.
Undoubtedly. Sagan is one of the prime proponents of the theory that we
are NOT alone, as opposed to Tipler, who believes we are. So I may take
it
that you are agreeing with me that Sagan cannot really give one an
impression that Sagan believes in a diety? That is what I take the "nor
have I ever claimed otherwise".
AS> All his writings (for instance, the introducion to BRIEF
AS> HISTORY OF TIME) points to the exact opposite view...as does
AS> his SHADOWS OF FORGOTTEN ANCESTORS. Being the cautious
AS> scientist he is (and bearing in mind that churchgoers buy books
AS> too ) he doesn't rule out the possibility. But that's a long
AS> way from saying that is what he believes happened.
BW> Nothing usual here.
Nothing unusual here, perhaps?
AS> And quite frankly, taking such a statement out of
AS> context...although you were honest enough to include enough to
AS> debunk the idea...seems a tad dishonest.
BW> I've taken nothing out of context. I was only showing the other side
BW> of the coin. Something most humans forget to do.
True, but there are some lines of reasoning you can quote...Johnson's
DARWIN ON TRIAL comes to mind...which would give a truer indication of
where the thinker gives any sort of justified doubts about evolution. I
don't agree with Johnson...given the enormous vistas of time and the
undoubted fact of mutation, it would take a miracle to KEEP evolution from
taking place.
AS> I'm a believer. I have claimed some scientists who believed in
AS> diety, with evidence. But I'm not going to claim someone as a
AS> theist who is not. That is dishonest.
BW> Nor am I doing so. All I ever said is that believing in evolution
BW> doesn't necessarily mean there was no intelligence involved. Yet
BW> those who try to discredit me, mislabel me as some sort of
BW> fundamentalist. Which is very far from the truth.
So you do not doubt the fact of evolution, just think there might be a
controlling intelligence influencing it? On that more limited scale, I
might agree, although I think the intelligence rarely or ever has to
intervene, until some beings get evolved enough to be at the stage where
communciation and human-level sentience is involved.
AS> Just because Hector is gone, don't think you can get away with
AS> it, Billy. You were one of the few things I agreed with Hector
AS> on.
BW> I bet you don't know me very well. Btw, where did Hector go?
True, I only saw a few posts of yours. Hector's feed problems, I believe,
have dissauded him from joining us.
AS> Tell the truth and shame the devil, Billy. He is very MUCH
AS> saying that either God is distant and remote enough not to
AS> control evolution directly; or there is no God. He is
AS> NOT...repeat, NOT...saying evolution didn't happen, unless God
AS> is a very muddled, bumbling God.
BW> I believe evolution is natural for lifeforms, whether here by
BW> accident or by some intelligent means. Why? Because we see evolution
BW> clearly by our own creations. Why would anyone believe otherwise?
Excellent! So we may take evolution as a given.
... Even if you ban all books, you can't ban the mind.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:04:00
EID:285a 20910080
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C811F4
AS> But how can you trust it? If reason is merely the result of the
AS> blind forces of nature...i.e., your brain is the product of
AS> atoms...how do you know whole areas of cognition are not able to be
AS> perceived by you? How do
RH> But there are such. You are only marginally aware of all that is going
RH> on in your brain.
Especially before my morning Coke or coffee...
AS> you know that the grooves of your thinking are merely the way your
AS> brain is constructed, and that no use of reason can perceive true
RH> This is largely true too. Most of life is stimulus-response reaction.
RH> What you think of as logic is after-the-fact rationalization.
Well, yes, but true reasoning or knowledge is distinct. For instance,
wishful thinking, prejudice, and madness are all stimuli which lead to
responses. But all of them are incorrect or unfounded. If someone says to
me "you believe the universe is a special creation of an Intelligence
because you are a Christian" I hasten to marshall arguments in my behalf,
because I don't feel that being raised in the Christian church is
sufficient reason for arguing that the Universe MUST be so. I feel I must
justify my reasoning. Similarly, if one says, "The Resurrection is a hoax"
one usually doesn't walk away and think his opinion is of no more
consequential than their taste in colors or ice cream...they are asked to
explain their REASONING behind it. We put our faith in reason; we try to
rise above our prejudices and comfort and loyalties. If all is stimulus
and response, there is no reason for that, nor any reason to appeal to
logic or reason to back up our arguments.
AS> logic. BUT if reason is something that is not dependent on matter
AS> for its essense, although it is for its transmission...then we can
AS> depend on our reason.
RH> Nonsense. You just said that reason can exist apart from a reasoner
RH> and because of that, it can be trusted. The first is unevidenced and
RH> the second is both non sequiter and absurd. Tsk tsk.
Is it?
The act of knowing, if it were totally explicable from other sources,
would cease to be knowledge; just as (to use a sensory parallel) the
ringing in my ears ceases to be what we mean by "hearing" when it can be
explained by something other than a noise in the outside world---such as
the ringing in the ears sometimes experienced when one has the cold or the
flu.
But although we sometimes gain knowledge by observation and inference,
true logic is something a little different. Men MIGHT be trained, if it
was just stimulus-response, to expect fire everytime they saw smoke. But
the assumption that things which have been cojoined in the past will
always be cojoined in the future is the guiding principle of instinctive
animal behavior, not rational behavior. Reason comes in precisely where
you make the inference and go on to attempt the discovery of the
connection between, say, smoke and fire. THAT is not a matter of
stimulus-response, but of cold reasoning. Some things, further, we know
some things purely of logic. My belief that things that are equal tothe
same thing are equal to one another is not at all based on the fact that
I have never caught them behaving otherwise.
... "Prejudice is the reason of fools." -- Voltaire (1694-1778) French
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: VERY MUCH MYTHOLOGY!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:04:00
EID:94c7 20910080
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C81A50
AS> BTW, do you know what the term "anthropic principle" means?
AS> You will.
GF> No.
The anthropic principle was first voiced by Brandon Carter in the
seventies, and has been the subject of numerous books, such as Tipler and
Barrow's THE COSMIC ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE or Martin Rees' Cosmic
Coincidences (Rees teaches in the same faculty as Steve Hawking.). It is
mentioned in passing in BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME, and you can find it in its
index. The idea is this; they now realize that if they altered some of the
basic constants of the universe by a very small degree, a lifeless...or
at
least, a universe with no INTELLIGENT life...would result. Anywhere. Much
depends on how fine-tuned the constants are in the universe, and it
appears that we do not, by any stretch of the imagination, live in a
"generic" universe.
An example:
NEUTRON-PROTON MASS DIFFERENTIAL
Number fourteen in the series of 'coincidences' that allow us to exist.
From George Greenstein's THE SYMBIOTIC UNIVERSE.
"The second difference is that the neutron outweighs the proton. This
fact is somewhat suprising, for as explained in Chapter 11 both the
neutron and proton are themselves constructed of yet smaller particles
known as quarks; there seems no fundamental reason why the neutron should
be the more massive of the two. Furthermore, the mass difference is quite
small, a mere tenth of a percent. One might think it would make no
difference. But it does make a difference. Indeed, it is crucial.
"In one hand I hold a stone, in the other a hammer; whacking the hammer
against the stone I break it into two parts. The splitting apart of the
neutron is analogous to the splitting of the stone, and it is important
to
note that this stone cannot be broken into pieces BIGGER THAN IT IS.
Similarly, the neutron is free to decay only because it is heavier than
the proton. Indeed, it outweighs the proton and electron combined.
"But what if it did not? What if the proton outweighed the neutron?
"Within both atomic nuclei and neutron stars few differences would
result. But for particles in isolation the situation would be reversed.
Now it would be neutrons that were stable and protons that decayed--they
would decay into neutrons. And isiolated portons are quite common in
nature. They are found in hydrogen. The atomic nucleus of hydrogen
consists of nothign more or less than a single proton. That element
therefore depends on its existence on the stability of the proton, and
this in turn depends on that microscopic difference between the proton and
the neutron. If the difference were reversed, hydrogen would not exist.
"Chapter 4 discusses the properties of water, and their relevance to the
requirements of life. That discussion left something out, though; The
stuff has to exist. But water is H2O. If hydrogen did not exist, water
would not exist.
"Speculations have occasionally been made that some form of
silicon-based life form might be possible. It is an open question whether
these speculations are to be taken seriously, and if so whether such
beings could get along without water. Let us grant both for the sake of
argument. Even so, however, the bsence of hydrogen would prove fatal to
such hypothetical beings, for whatever the details of their biochemical
organization, they still would require an outside source of energy--a sun.
BUT THE SUN IS MADE OF HYDROGEN.
If at this very moment some mysterious process were to increase the
proton mass relative to that of the neutron, little would happen for
several minutes. But after that interval of time the protons in the Sun
would commence decaying. Soon the Sun would be made not of hydrogen but
of
neutrons. And what would such an object be like?
"The central difference between such a beast and the true Sun lies in
the insulating properties of the material of which they are composed. In
this regard the Sun is much like a house. In constructing a house it pays
to install good insulatio, for if one does not the building is unprotected
against the cold of winter. The Sun, likewise, floats in the absolute zero
of space; and the heat it loses must be replenished. But that reheating
takes energy, fuel; and there is only so much of it available to the star.
Ultimately the Sun is going to run out of fuel. The poorer the insulation,
the more rapidly will this occur....andthe more rapidly will the light of
the world go out.
"Neutrons, it develops, make terrible insulation--hundreds of millions
of times poorer than the material of which the Sun is actually composed.
If the protons in it were to decay, the Sun would commence burning fuel
at
a rate so enormous that within a century it would be entirely exhausted.
And after that time the Sun would go out.
"Not could the Sun have survived more than a century after its
formation. But one hundred years is not long enough for life to develop,
let alone for evolution to proceed. In biological terms it is the merest
flicker of an eyelash. Furthermore the Sun is not alone in this regard,
for most stars in the sky are composed of hydrogen. none could have
existed beyond that microscopic interval of time had the proton
outweighed the neutron. Of course, certain other stars, the red giants
such as Capella, Pollux, and Aldebaran, are composed not of hydrogen but
of helium. They would hardly be affected in such a circumstance. But while
red giants play a vital role in preparing the cosmos for life they do not
make suitable seats for it, and for the same reason; They do not survive
long enough. The same is true of every other stellar type. Only stars like
the Sun, those composed of hydrogen, maintain themselves for the bast
intervals of time required for the full developement of life about them;
and these in turn exist only by virtue of that tiny offset--one tenth of
one percent--between the masses of two subatomic particles."
Barrow and Tipler, in the COSMIC ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE, were even more
pessimistic.
"The other part of the nucleosynthesis coincidence arises because the
neutron-proton mass difference is -mE(nuetron is a proton minus the mass
of an electron, roughly.) In fact, this is only part of a very delicate
coincidence that is crucial for the existence of a life-supporting
enviornment in the present day Universe. We find that
m(Proton) -m (electron)=1.293 MeV -0.511 MeV = 0.782 MeV
Thus, since m(n)(mass of neutron) and m(p) (mass of proton) are of order
1
GeV the relation is a one part in a thousand coincidence. IF instead we
found that m(P) -m(E) < or ~ 0 then we would not find the beta decay n->p
+ e- + v(e), occuring naturally. Rather, we would find the decay p + e-
->
n + v(e). That would lead to a World in which stars and planets could not
exist. These structures, if formed, would decay into netrons by pe-
annihilation. Without electrostatic forces to support them, solid bodies
would collapse rapidly into neutron stars (if smaller than about 3 solar
masses) or black holes. Thus, the coincidence that allows protons to
partake in nuclear reactions in the early universe alos prevents them
decaying by weak interactions. It also, of course, prevents the 75% of the
Universe which emerges from nucleosynthesis in the form of protons from
simply decaying away into neutrons. If that wer eto happen no atoms would
ever have formed and we would not be here to know it."
You can find fourteen more "coincidences" off my web page at http://www.
nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/index.html, and Martin Rees once did a much
larger list for Nature. Of course, a Creator isn't the ONLY possible
explanation, but I think I can back up with logic that it is the most
logical one, under Occam's Razor.
AS> (PS. You have now met such a believer. And there are many more of
AS> us than the stereotype would have it.)
GF> I just don't see how you can believe in it given the world as we know
GF> it today. The tall tales, the contradictions. Let alone that there's
GF> like so many tens of thousands of religions.
I base my belief, or at least my arguments for Christianity, on three
things...the anthropic "coincidences" mentioned before, of which the above
is just one sample of many, altruism above and beyond that which can be
explained by strict societal or genetic necessity, and the lack of a
suitable explanation of what made the disciples undergo torture (all of
them were flogged by the Sanhedrin), death (James and Stephen, certainly)
and threat of death (again, the Sanhedrin originally threatened them with
death until Gamaliel talked them out of it) and imprisonment, as shown by
what happened to Peter and John...were they ALL lunatics? But to be a
lunatic is to be singular. I could believe one of them had a vision of a
resurrected Christ, but ALL of them? Were they liars? How many con men
would willingly be flogged for something they lied about, especially since
they had nothing to gain, and everything to lose...the censure of their
country's rulers...or were they telling the truth?
... I plead temporary sanity.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Which Christian goes next
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:02:00
EID:983c 20910840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C823E2
FR> I wonder if you'll start to demand that Jim Jones also wasn't a
FR> Christian. Who's next on your list of Christians you'll deny?
FR> Torquemada? David Duke?
Only the ones I have EVIDENCE weren't Christian, Fred. Torquemada I
explictly have said is Christian, to you many times, and I believe I have
mentioned Vlad Tepes. David Duke and his fellow travellers, the KKK, are
also Christian, unfortunately. Jim Jones...I must admit to a slight
qualification there. I consider him Christian-DERIVED, but that some of
his teachings go far beyond the NT, enough to practically qualify it as
another religion, as Christianity and Islam derived from Judaism. But if
you would rather consider him Christian (and certainly he shares many of
the same imagery) I have no objection.
... How fortunate for rulers, that men do not think. -Adolph Hitler
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Zionist-Hate Media
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:02:00
EID:df83 20910840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C829FA
MC>1st. John says that anyone who does not accept him as Lord is the
MC>Anti- Christ, and not to sit-down with them.
JJ> There *is* no "Jew media," and bigotry like this only
JJ> disgraces the name of Christ.
AS> It disgraces the sheer humanity of us all, also.
PS> Yes and no. For it to fully do so, "Mark" would have to be human.
Does only his FATHER'S side count? (I can think of no sneakier way to
call someone an SOB.)
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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SEEN-BY: 116/19 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Zionist-Neo-Nazis
|Date: 17 Apr 96 21:55:00
EID:a026 2091aee0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175a0f4
Gemantria: (((Mimi*[X1])2^Bill)04-17-96 14:37[X2]) =Zionist-Neo-Nazis[X3]
MM> Hello Bill!
MM> and Mark Craig too - 'he' is probably waiting with, if not bated,
MM> then definitely with bad breath.
MM> Bill Arnold wrote in a message to All:
BA> Pray for the Gaza ghetto, and the victims of the holocaust
BA> in Lebanon. ---
MM> Just did! "Oh, thou Lord of Hosts... Please ask your alter ego,
MM> Allah, to create a new and fresh planet named Hezbollah, and
MM> send your chariots of fire for all restless souls in Gaza and
MM> Lebanon. And while your are at it, the Sadam Hussein clan might
MM> also appreciate a lift"
MM> Happy?
Excellent! Amen, sister, a-MEN! };) Who says I don't know how to be
religious?
... richard.smith@syrundry.gigo.com
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:30:02
EID:bb7c 2091b3c0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175a92a
Gemantria: (((Al*[X1])2^J.j.)04-16-96 04:05[X2])
=Re: Adolph Hitler Was a C[X3]
JH> The major problem I have with the 'Hitler was a Xian' argument is
JH> that it depends upon takeing Hitler's public statements at face
JH> value.
JH> A dangerous assumption to make when dealing with any person seeking
JH> or holding public office, let alone Adolf Hitler.
AS> Yes. Hitler is a known liar, witness the treaty he signed with
AS> Chamberlain, and then scrapped. His actions speak much more directly
AS> to what Hitler was. (Not his atrocities---the plans to create a Reich
AS> Church, the not going to services, the killing himself without a
AS> priest to administer last rites, etc.)
This last part wouldn't have mattered, though. Regardless of if he got
last rites or not in the Catholic Church, killing himself would have
sent him to Hell regardless. So that last point is moot, right? }:)
... . . . don't talk to me about "reality". -- Jim Germiquet
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Question
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:51:04
EID:3b6f 2091b660
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175ae18
Gemantria: (((Al*[X1])2^Rob)04-16-96 00:03[X2]) =QUESTION[X3]
RB> An omnipotent 'loving' god could design an earth that had no Siamese
RB> twins, no childhood leukemia, no muscular distrophy. But instead, his
RB> design is exactly the same as an indifferent, conscienceless nature.
AS> Well, if He designed us so well, that there would be no deviation,
AS> then no evolution would take place, since evolution is caused by
AS> deviation over generations. So we would still be one-celled animals.
AS> If God goes in and directs us only in the way He has predetermined,
AS> then we are all perfect beings without fault and blemish. In fact...we
AS> are remarkably like the description of Adam and Eve...before the Fall.
AS> Even though I regard it as a parable, it DOES solve much at a stroke,
AS> if there is some truth to it. Once we might have been in such a state
AS> as you describe...and then we did the one thing that could get us
AS> kicked out.
Logic problem here, Al. If we assume for the sake of argument that
God's creation of the earth, etc., as given in Genesis is a given, then
there'd be no need for evolution since God himself generated all the
life forms and didn't start from single celled animals to evolve them
on down (or up) to you or myself. What would be wrong if we were all
perfect beings, all ultimately happy, content, etc.?
I have sons, like you, and can only begin to imagine the torment you
must feel, since my sons are young hellions, boisterous boys to the
core, who have no disfunction at this time. (Or ever, I hope.) While
I have my beliefs as to why such things happen to people, I'm sure that
they aren't the same as your rationales for them . . . and maybe some
day we can exchange our `excuses' for why such things happen. Yet I
know you feel deeply about this, especially in relationship to your
sons. I just want you to know that I'm not being disrespectful of your
feelings regarding this, nor them. I'm just curious. Obviously, we
all want our children to be golden ones, forever young, immortal, and
perfect. }:)
... "At birth we woke to dream in this world between." -Kan'ami Kiyotsugu
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:59:06
EID:220e 2091b760
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175affa
Gemantria: (((Al*[X1])2^Preston)04-16-96 03:08[X2]) =YOUR DAILY MURDER[X3]
AS> However, I NEVER lose my temper...waitasecond. Where's my Coke! I
AS> had a Coke here a minute ago...WHERE'S MY COKE!!!!!
AS> Sorry. Caffeine withdrawal.
PS> That's excusable. Caffeine deprivation is not something to be
PS> tolerated.
AS> That's the real reason the Middle Ages had the Crusades, the
AS> Inquisition, witch hunts, the Rack, etc. No caffeine.
You know, you might have something here . . . the Mid East is closer
to Arabic countries, that did have coffee from my understanding,
therefor the Crusades would be in keeping with this. The Inquisition
was strongest near countries that were or once were Islamic, again we
see cultures that used the coffee bean . . . don't see a connection
between the Witch hunts and caffiene, unless someone wanted to know how
to brew a better pot of coffee. But the whole conquest of the New
World had to be a quest for caffiene, both as coffee beans, but also as
the (New World Only) source for chocolate. There were desperate enough
to drink hot unsweetened chocolate back in the middle ages . . . };)
... Borg Alka Seltzer: I can't believe I assimilated the WHOLE thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 17 Apr 96 23:10:08
EID:9e90 2091b940
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175b290
Gemantria: (((Al*[X1])2^Judith)04-16-96 03:00[X2])=HOLY SMOKE[X3]
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Lawrence Mccurry <=-
LM> === Lawrence ===
AS> Killer weed, dude.
JB> I really think he's down to seeds and stems, though.
AS> I HATE it when that happens.
AS> In the immortal words of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, "Dope
AS> will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you
AS> through times of no dope."
Far out. Underground comic references . . . };) Fat Freddie's cat was
my favorite ("Anybody got a dime to see a cat dance?") as well as
Wonder Warthog and anything by Crumb.
AS> (All the twenty-somethings just went "Huh?" Trust me, people; you
AS> would have had to have been there, in the sixties.)
Young whippersnappers anyway . . . }:) . . . ah, don't get me started
on the nostalgic bit again, Al . . .
... No stems, no seeds, that you don't need, Aculpoco Gold is ...pphhht...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: New HolySmoke files!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 23:27:00
EID:fe6e 2091bb60
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 31757e8d
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 9d5381bb
-=| On 15 Apr 96 10:19, Jim Staal said: |=-
DO>> Glad to see I'm still in on the list! Ain't got access to milk
DO>> crates no more...
JS> Sure...you are smiling now..._I_ still have access to a crate. I know
JS> where you keep em. (good luck, bro, in you new endeavor)
Thank you, kind sir.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 16 Apr 96 20:15:00
EID:7756 2090a1e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> It's my biggest gripe with christianity as practiced by most
JB> today...they call the words and teachings of Jesus, when put into
JB> action by those who believe them important, 'communism',
JB> 'bleeding-heart liberalism', etc. Well, there wasn't anyone more
JB> liberal, now was there?
LB> bingo.
The difference I see is that Jesus urged individuals to be
compassionate, loving and charitable. He never advocated government
systems which take from people what they earn and re-distribute it.
That, I think, is what conservative Christians criticize. (I know it's
true for me, anyway). Not charity, but government-mandated charity.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:13:00
EID:cbf5 2090b9a0
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TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Jim Germiquet <=-
AB> And it is a common idea. A pity that it makes no sense whatever, but
AB> then, most people aren't particularly rational when it comes to
AB> religion. Assume for the sake of argument that Christianity is true.
AB> Then God is omniscient; when he created the universe that he did, he
AB> thus must have known everything that would result. God is omnipotent;
AB> when he created the universe, he could thus have instead chosen to
AB> create any other universe which is logically possible (such as the
AB> Utopia which Mr. Hardy seems to have given up trying to refute). Thus,
AB> everything about our universe is quite clearly God's fault, because
he
AB> knew it would happen, and, albeit quite indirectly in the case of
AB> current events, brought it about anyway.
I did not "give up trying to refute" your nonsensical idea that free
will can somehow be simultaneously truly free and yet lead
to an inevitable outcome. I just haven't been able to figure out any
other way to show you the collassal failing in your logic, since my
first few attempts didn't seem to do the trick.
... German word for brassiere: Stoppemfrumfloppin.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: abortion
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:48:00
EID:a4af 2090be00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624380
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> There is no qualitative difference between a fetus at one week and
a
MH> fetus at eight months. The only differences are quantitative -- a
MH> matter of degree.
RB> A fetus at 8 months is viable outside the womb. It looks very much
RB> like a little (albeit helpless) person. It's organs are formed and
RB> it's brain is online. A fetus at one week looks nothing like a person.
RB> It hasn't even reached the tadpole stage. It has no organs and no
RB> brain. The differences are both quantitative and qualitative.
Sounds to me like the difference is pretty much a matter of whether the
fetus "looks" human. Look, I readily admit that the fetus becomes more
and more developed and self-sufficient as development progresses. What
I don't see is how that justifies making its life subject to forfeit
for some (vaguely-defined) period of time.
If you can abort the fetus at three months, why not five? If five
months, why not seven? If seven, why not eight? If eight, why not one
month after birth?
At every stage, you could come up with something the child cannot yet
do. No brain at one week, but no language ability at one month after
birth. No reproductive capability for several years.
It looks to me like people who are pro-choice feel free to each come up
with their own parameters that define "person." For some, it's fetal
viability. For others, birth. For others, heartbeat or brainwaves.
It's all a semantic game, IMO. The only real change is from non-being
into being.
RB> If a hospital nursery is on fire and inside the nursery is a premature
RB> baby (born 1 month early) and also a 1 week old embryo in a test tube,
RB> which do you save? I only submit this question to show that the
RB> difference is definitely qualitative.
Assuming I can only save one, I would save the older one. However,
the question has little bearing on the issue of abortion, where the
choice is rarely such an either-or.
I answered your question, now you answer this one: If a woman brings
you her one-week old infant and asks you if she should kill it so
that she can free to return to college, how would you respond? I only
submit this question to show that there is a point where you admit the
baby's right to live supersedes her choices.
RB> (sorry, couldn't resist). You think a week old embryo has more rights
RB> than a 20 year old woman.
In what way? I ask the question: Who has more to lose? Obviously,
losing your entire life is more significant than losing some of your
liberty. I do NOT think the week old embryo has *more* rights than the
woman. I think the fetus has a right to live -- the same as does the
woman.
MH> Because the fetus lacks cognition only because that is a normal stage
MH> of human development, soon to be outgrown. Where is the justification
MH> for robbing the fetus forever of its one and only chance at life,
MH> UNLESS you're influenced by selfishness and emotionalism?
RB> Are you vehemently opposed to coitus interuptus? That's robbing a
RB> potential fetus of it's one and only chance at life. And those little
RB> wiggly spermatoza are every bit as cognizant as a week old embryo.
RB> That is to say, not at all.
Fallacy. False comparison. The sperm will never be more than sperm.
The egg will never be more than an egg. When a sperm and egg meet, they
form a third, unique entity which *will* become far more than would
seem.
RB> Is it selfish to delay having children until you are ready? Until you
RB> actually want them and have the financial and emotional capacity to
RB> care for them? It seems the child would benefit if those criteria are
RB> met.
There is a significant -- and obvious -- difference between not
creating human life on the one hand, and interrupting one which is in
progress on the other. I do not intend to have children at all. There
is nothing wrong with that. I am not arguing that there is some kind of
duty for people to reproduce. The world would be better off if most
would not. I am only arguing that if sexual activity does create a
human life -- desired or not -- that human life should not be snuffed
out for reasons that are none of its doing.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:16:00
EID:73bd 2090ba00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624386
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Mark Barnett <=-
MB> Thats about the size of it. That is why God promiesed never to do it
MB> again.
KD> It seems to me that if one promises never to do something again, it
KD> was a mistake. Does that mean God isn't perfect?
At some point, most married couples with children decide they want no
more children. Does that mean the children they did have were mistakes?
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: apology to marilyn
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:50:00
EID:7ba9 2090be40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624384
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> You do notice, of course, that there is not a word about a need
MB> to apologize to ME. It has never occurred to him that I have in
MB> any way been hurt by this whole debacle, and that is why I've
MB> twitted him. He'll leave a certain amount of latitude for
MB> diversity among believers, but by damn, NONbeliever had better
MB> get it RIGHT!
LB> You make a very good point here, and I hope he will see it and address
LB> it. One *tiny* point though -- since you've made it clear that you
LB> don't read his posts and that you will never decide to change your
LB> opinion of him, he may not be up to having his head handed back to him
LB> on a platter right now.
LB> Don't ask for giant leaps from someone who's just learning how to
LB> walk.
Actually, I did try to start anew with Marilyn several months ago, and
she informed me that she had her mind made up and nothing I could do
would change it. (But *I'm* the "dogmatic" one ... ) It's kind of
hypocritical for her to now gripe about it, when she tried to bite
my hand last time I extended it.
Also, I don't think her point is so good. I dialogue quite civilly with
many unbelievers here -- Aaron Boyden, "Elliott Finesse," Rob Burcham,
and Martin Goldberg, for example.
MB> You also notice that the only reason who got even as much
MB> apology as you did is because he found out that there were
MB> "things going on in your life." In other words, so long as
MB> he can delude himself into thinking that nobody in this
MB> conference has a life outside this conference, we're fair
MB> game for his "I'm right and you're wrong" style of discourse.
MB> Now, THAT's real sensitive. NOT!
LB> A REALLY good point. And I hope a lot of people here were listening
to
LB> it.
In what way is it a good point? Good grief, *everybody* has a life
outside the echo. I don't see what that has to do with anything.
... Behaviorial Research: Pulling habits out of rats.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Evidence...
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:20:00
EID:1e34 2090ba80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624387
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
LB>Agreed, but there is still a theological dilemma that the
LB>fundamentalist view is left to mull over -- why would a god demand
LB>belief in an event that he took such great pains to "hide" the
LB>evidence for? This makes god a liar as well as genocidal. An
LB>omnipotent god could do all of that, but a god who is supposed to be
LB>either Merciful or Just WOULDN'T.
LB>Even by working under the assumption that God as described by
LB>Christian theology exists, the story of the Flood STILL doesn't add
LB>up.
KDM> True. The problem, though, is the usual response is to say that God
KDM> removed all evidence of the flood, as if there was evidence, it would
KDM> deny faith.
What little young-earth Creationist literature I've read says that
evidence for the flood is abundant -- the geological strata, which they
say evolutionists and us old-age Creationists wrongly (in their
opinion) take as evidence of billions of years of deposition.
... A Mexican won the lottery. It was a million to Juan.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: More Bible Errors
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:23:00
EID:fde1 2090bae0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624388
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting John Steinson to Sean Mccullough <=-
Caught this from you in John's message to you ... I gotta turn this
twit filter off.
SM>From the King James Bible (Oxford):
SM>2 And they had in their inheritance Beer-sheba, and Sheba, and Moladah,
SM>3 And Hazar-Shual, and Balah, and Azem,
SM>4 And El-tolad, and Bethul, and Hormah,
SM>5 And Ziklag, and Beth-marcaboth, and Hazar-susah,
SM>6 And Beth-Lebaoth, and Sharuhen; thirteen cities with their villages:
SM> > Want to see it itemized?
SM> > 1. Beersheba (a.k.a. Sheba)
SM>BZZZT. The King James translation definitely lists Beer-Sheba and Sheba
as
SM>SEPARATE CITIES.
BZZT yourself. What the King James translation, or any other English
translation, says is not especially relevant. What's relevant is what
the original Hebrew says.
Unfortunately, Hebrew is ambiguous about punctuation. The presence or
absence of parentheses has to be inferred by translators. The NIV uses
parentheses just as I quoted: "Beersheba (or Sheba)" ...
Apparently, knowing that people in Joshua's day could count, and
knowing that it was not uncommon for the names of towns to vary, they
saw fit to give the author of Joshua the benefit of the doubt and
assume that if two similar names follow one another, and if the number
cited is one less than the number of names listed, then the two similar
names refer to the same place.
This idea is reinforced by the fact that when the same list of cities
appears in 1 Chronicles 4:28, Sheba is not among them.
... First a Swede, reincarnated as a Norweigian: Yep, I'm Bjorn again.
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|From: David Trosch
|To: All
|Sub: Relig/Free Speech Lawsuit
|Date: 17 Apr 96 11:57:17
EID:f1fb 20915f20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624389
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
Mobile, Alabama -- April 17, 1996
$53 Million - Anti- Religion and Free Speech -
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FACE Lawsuit by Abortionist.
Christians should soon expect to be required to profess:
1. Human beings do not exist from the moment of conception!
2. Abortion is not murder!
3. All religious beliefs need government approval!
Under the FACE (Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances) act,
abortionist Dr. Bruce Lucero of Birmingham, Alabama, is suing to
in effect restrict the U. S. Constitutional 1st amendment right of
free speech and religious belief. On the "Geraldo Show,"
October 1994 in New York City, [Geraldo had Fr. David Trosch
sit next to the abortionist] the general statement was made that
abortionists should be dead. [Best method for death of
abortionists would be by legal execution under just laws which
recognize the real value of pre-born persons.] Lucero is suing
for INTIMIDATION under the FACE law even though he had
voluntarily agreed to be on the show fully knowing and
understanding the stated and publicized position of the people
placed in opposition to him in regard to the defense of the
unborn. The U. S. Attorney General, Janet Reno, is permitting,
encouraging, and perhaps even promoting frivolous lawsuits at
the behest of pro-choicer's.
In 1973 the United States Supreme Court held it to be legal to
kill innocent preborn children right up through partial delivery of a
mature child. The only requirement being that the child's head
remain in the womb until the brain was punctured and sucked
out to possibly be used in health potions. Pres. Clinton recently
vetoed a congressional bill to restrict "Partial Birth Abortions."
The Federal government is prosecuting everyone they can who
is actively opposing legalized abortion. Many, including pregnant
women, have been jailed or imprisoned for their efforts to defend
the innocent. The government has been holding conspiracy
hearings involving numerous people who have spoken out
against abortion. These hearings have already cost many
millions of dollars. The cost continues to increase. The United
States is in effect participating in a conspiracy with Planned
Parenthood, National Organization of Women, Abortion Rights
Action League, and others against pro-life activists.
Trosch and others believe that "Abortion is Murder." Trosch's
superior, Archbishop Oscar H. Lipscomb, has agreed with this
position in deposition. The Catholic Church has held this
position since the early centuries of Christianity and Pope John
Paul II has restated the position in paragraph 58 of a recent
encyclical entitled, "The Gospel of Life." Trosch and many
others believe that as moral human beings created by God, the
unborn may be defended the same as any innocent born person
may be defended. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 2270)
Legitimate defense is not to be confused in any manner with
vigilantism, anger, vengeance, retribution or any type of
punishment. Per an MPR (Mobile Press Register) headline
article dated July 30, 1993, "Justifiable Homicide" is legal in all
50 states. The article also stated that California leads in
justifiable killings with Alabama ranking 27th in the nation.
The MPR has had information regarding this $53,000,000.00 law
suit against Fr. Trosch for some time and has thus far made no
mention of it. The scheduled two or more day trial begins:
Monday, April 22, 1996 at 9:00 A.M. in courtroom "2-A" before:
Charles R. Butler, Jr. Chief District Judge
United States District Court House
113 St. Joseph Street
Mobile, AL 36602
Fr. Trosch made national and international headlines when the
MPR published a Sunday morning front page story on August 15,
1993 in regard to a cartoon that was designed to present the
"philosophical question" asking what could be considered
justifiable: The premeditated killing of an innocent human being,
or, the death of the aggressor who is a paid assassin. The
article was placed immediately below one about Pope John
Paul's visit to Denver in which active opposition to abortion was
encouraged.
The Mobile newspaper -- which runs a dating column serving to
promote immoral sexual behavior and deviant lifestyles -- and
other public media are apparently turning in favor of promoting
abortion and sodomy. The MPR column is frequently run on a
highly visible back page and is called "Voice Meeting Place" and
encourages "new age romance."
Pro-choice/abortion advocates and sodomites have teemed up
politically and defensively to support each other in their deviancy.
It may of course be that the Mobile paper is solely interested in
reporting in such a manner as will sell the greatest number of
papers possible and is not concerned with immorality. In
defense of the MPR it seems that honorable journalism is no
longer a factor of importance in publishing a newspaper
anywhere in the nation. A recent issue of the MPR gave
apparent approval to sodomite relationships and even published
a photo of two men embracing. Dogs, lions, and animal rights
have been given voluminous column space far out of proportion
to their comparative value to innocent humans in the womb.
Mobile has historically been a Christian city, but is it any longer?
It seems that throughout the country Christians -- still the
dominant form of religious belief in this country -- prefer to sit at
home or in church pews praying that God will make everything
right. [Cowards are to be condemned and the indifferent are to
be spewed out as vomit.] All religious beliefs seem to have
forgotten that following the creation of the world God gave
control of it to the human race, "Be fertile and multiply; fill the
earth and subdue it." God will hold each and everyone,
personally capable of acting against evil, accountable for their
inactivity. Popular church leaders will be held most accountable.
More information and documentation available as follows:
Private BBS: . 334-607-0082 . (24 hours daily - All of April.)
. . . . . . The trial argumentation file is: . JDG-BTLR.TXT
. . also available in Word Perfect (DOS) 6.0:. JDG-BTLR.WP6
Internet E-Mail: . . trosch@dibbs.net
Fax - Phone: . . . . . . . 334-639-7456
Fr. David C. Trosch
PO Box 850307
Mobile, AL 36685-0307
Help of any kind will be appreciated.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 16 Apr 96 19:49:00
EID:761a 20909e20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624381
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> RB> When a naturalist is unable to back up his claim by
MH> RB> scientific means, it isn't called 'religion'. It's
MH> RB> called 'I don't know'. Theists should try it sometime.
MH>
MH> However, the dogmatic insistence that all reality MUST be natural,
that
MH> the supernatural cannot exist, IS a religious assumption. It is the
MH> rejection of traditional religion, but that is itself an unevidenced
MH> belief to which the Materialist must hold by faith.
RB> It continues to puzzle me how a person who has no beliefs in the
RB> supernatural is said to be 'religious'. A religious atheist is
RB> tantamount to a meat-eating vegetarian.
I did not say that such a person is religious. I said that he holds a
specific opinion about the existence of God and the possibility of said
God's intervention in the material world. Those are religious subjects.
Such a person rejects religious belief, but that is itself a choice
*about* religion.
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Starwyn
|Sub: test
|Date: 16 Apr 96 20:06:00
EID:40b5 2090a0c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Starwyn to All <=-
St> Is this getting out? I'd like to order a large pizza please, with
St> nothing on it.
St>
And a root beer, hold the mug. :)
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 01:09:22
EID:a250 20920920
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 3175eaa2
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 657d08d7
A Fair & Just God?
Which one is fair?
Which one is just?
Lots of gods around, just asking which one is all.
Oh, you also said this:
JH> Here in Texas we have a concealed weapon law, but prohibitions
JH> are permitted and common.
Have you noticed that Metro Bus has the signs saying no concealed
weapons are allowed...however, unlike the signs that say no smoking,
drinking, or eating, there is no wording about criminal or civil code.
Thus, if you are caught with a concealed gun, all they can do is ask
that you get off of the bus. (and enforce it, probably, but not a jailable
offence)
JH> I don't know what this country is comeing to.
Nor do I, but can say with no reservation, it's goin to the dawgs!
JH> They won't even let you carry your legally concealed weapon to
JH> church.
Thank gawd for small miricles! Why, that would prevent me from shooting
some of these xians that get in my face trying to save my ugly arse from
the everlasting hell fire and damnation! Praise be to gawd! Halaluja!!
Praise Jesus, yes, praise him on high! Bashoona karooph danna hoo movah
tof! (oops, sorry, the spirit caught me, I don't like to pray in tounges
in public!)
L8ter daze!
...Brian
JH> church.
JH> Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
What relation is that to the ol Hostes Twinkie?
(forgive me lawd, i know not know how to spell or discern the
difference of Hostes and Hostess, or whoever the debbil makes
them darn ol yummy tum tum Twinkies!)
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: The Raven
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:54:46
EID:03e5 209216c0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316B4527
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d6
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
DC>Seems like your bible is missing something, like corroborating
DC>evidence.
MB>Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
MB>science is theory.
I'm sorry, but I don't think I'll let you divert the argument. Let's
see some corroborating evidence supporting the bible (which was the original
point). Shaky or not, there *is* evidence to support the "scientific
argument", and this is much more than there is to support the "biblical
argument".
Jack Butler
... Fun Bible Fact: Genesis 2 directly contradicts Genesis 1.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: LAURA HODGKINS
|Sub: Angels
|Date: 13 Apr 96 05:21:14
EID:df49 208d2aa0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:322/746 5c9c7d3e
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 31703f8a
LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is possible to
LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
Never met one, and no.
Jack Butler
... "I see the truth in it." -- Paul Atreides
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:22:25
EID:ee9c 20921ac0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:116/19 035D4564
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d8
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
AS> Perhaps. But how often do you get twelve lunatics to agree on
AS> anything? To be insane is to be different.
Easier than you think, Al... how many Islamics have blown themselves up,
convinced that they have a penthouse reservation in the Pearly Gates Hilton
if they just give their lives for Allah? How many people believed that
the
Martians really did land back in 1938? How many Branch Davidians believed
that David Koresh was actually Jesus Christ?
Easier than you think...
AS> But you yourself do not dismiss the possibility of intelligent life
AS> out there, despite UFO nuts. And you, I assume, theoretically
AS> acknowledge that there COULD be aliens out there.
Ummm... I'd like to point out that while belief in UFO lore necessitates
a belief in extraterrestrial life, the opposite is not true. I believe
heartily that there are other intelligent species out there somewhere.
I
do *not*, however, believe that any of those intelligent species have ever
been *here* for a visit.
Jack Butler
... "Brandy, bottled in 1783... 1783 was a very good year."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Credibility
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:17:26
EID:32e2 20921220
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a240
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d2
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
AS> I think it's again, a matter of personality; people like Sean and Fred
AS> (and, in times before, Larry Sites, and others) can make dogmatic
AS> pronouncements with the best of 'em, and very few clear their throat
AS> said, "Isn't that just a little hasty...?"
I remember you being surprised when I blasted Rice for being a dick to
people he disagreed with...
Jack Butler
... "I've been raising up my hands, drive another nail in."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 18 Apr 96 01:51:15
EID:7228 20920e60
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895C0E24
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6ce
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
MC> I didn't know kikes paid taxes?
I didn't know brainless shitheads used computers till I saw a note from
your.
Jack Butler
... Welcome to Florida. Now get the hell out.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FALSE PROPHETS
|Date: 18 Apr 96 01:59:01
EID:200c 20920f60
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:116/19 0434BABC
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6cf
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
AS> (I'm a Christian, and of course I know the Holocaust happened.)
That's because your IQ is larger than your shoe size...
Jack Butler
... "Och! We've got to get... out of this trap!" -- Dr. Scott
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: False Prophets (Like there are true ones?)
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:13:04
EID:70e6 209211a0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 338890c0
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d1
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
> BEWARE!
>
> David J. Smith (Newswatch magazine) is a Zionist stooge.
FR> Yes, Jim. We know. We are too.
Should we let him know that just about everyone on this echo is a
zionist stooge? That way maybe he's hie his ass out the door...
Jack Butler
... "What's your Tradition?" "Get them before they get me..."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: The Raven
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: For Marilyn B.
|Date: 16 Apr 96 13:16:32
EID:f1cc 20906a00
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895E43E0
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6c0
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
MH> If you refuse to talk to me, then I respectfully request you stop
MH> talking *about* me. It isn't fair for you to make accusations and
MH> allow me no opportunity to confront my accuser.
The world ain't fair, Mike, and no one here is required to play fair
with you. I'll still talk to you, even though you aren't as respected by
me
as you once were. However, if they want to bad mouth you in front of your
face, that's just tough.
Jack Butler
... "Don't look up; the sky is falling." -- Tori Amos
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: The Raven
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:28:13
EID:8c95 20921b80
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:116/19 035CF8C0
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d9
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
AS> Anyone who sold a man for thirty pieces of silver...although it wouldn't
AS> surprise me if Judas had a more revolutionary motive, to spur Jesus
into
AS> action.
Ever see "Jesus Christ Superstar"? Offers the readical view that Judas
sold Jesus out to save the Jews from even heavier oppression. He saw the
growing popularity of Jesus and worried that the Romans would see it as
a
rebellion in the making and come down even harder than they already were
on
the Hebrews...
Jack Butler
... "Trust me... I'm a sociopathic knife-murderer." -- Salvatore
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: The Raven
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Harmony
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:00:36
EID:1b01 20921800
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:116/19 0486B57E
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d7
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
MB> If the Europeans had just kept their noses out of things on that
MB> continent, the African tribes would still be in harmony with nature.
I know I'm going to be sorry for opening this can of worms, but would you
be so kind as to define your terms? What exactly do you mean by "still
be
in harmony with nature"? What harmony are you implying?
I am asking this because the same sort of statement has been made about
the Indians, and I *know* that its bullshit when it comes to us...
Jack Butler
... ROCKY.TAG Taglines from and about "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: The Raven
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: help me
|Date: 13 Apr 96 05:23:38
EID:a81b 208d2ae0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895C4391
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 31703f8b
MH> I invite anyone who wishes to show or tell me what I have done that
MH> is offensive. I am seriously trying to evaluate my behavior and make
MH> any necessary changes.
I'll tell you something you probably won't hear to often: when I
restarted my association with this echo, I enjoyed writing to you. Sure,
we
are on "opposite sides of the argument", as it were, but you used intelligent
reasoning and gave the other person the benefit of the doubt as far as their
own reasoning is concerned. In other words, you were willing to acknowledge
that maybe a non-believer put as much thought and feeling into their own
religious decisions as you did yours.
Somewhere along the way, you stopped being willing to acknowledge this.
You spared no pain in pointing out that *you* had done a lot of thinking,
etc., but were unwilling to admit that other people may have put as much
thinking, as much soul-searching, as you had. To point: you began to
trivialize (*NOT* bad-mouth or insult, but trivialize) the conclusions of
others, even when they were as solidly based as your own.
This was your cardinal sin, for me. Its the reason I consider Al to be
a pal while you I find to be a putz. He, at least, doesn't make light of
my
own beliefs, or lack thereof.
Jack Butler
... Experience is an expensive teacher. All others are underpaid.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Mind Control
|Date: 16 Apr 96 14:25:16
EID:eed4 20907320
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89600E20
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6c1
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
DC> It's a matter of counting, Jack. Larry counts 1, 2, many.
DC> Unfortunately, millions suffer and die, and 13 is more than 6
DC> and 40 is more than 13 and 65 is more than 40. Therefore, the
DC> 65 million is tragic and the 6 million isn't.
DC> One of these days he'll learn to count to a single digit and
DC> understand that each person is is important.
My point...
Jack Butler
... "I've allies in Heaven, I've comrades in Hell..." -- The Crow
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Pinnacle of Life
|Date: 16 Apr 96 14:26:31
EID:7919 20907340
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89600E26
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6c2
I am declaring a Pax Humanica regarding this issue. Simply put, I just
don't want to get into it. But I did want to let you know that my name
is
*not* John, has never been John, and won't be John. It's Jack, just like
it
appears on my birth certificate.
Jack Butler
... "May God grant you the mercy that I cannot." -- The Crow
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Renee Deyoe
|Sub: Question
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:02:14
EID:c01e 20921040
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:3621/22 316db251
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d0
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
RD> I see no religious debate here..so either this is in the wrong place
RD> and my mail tosser is wacky or this Preston Simpson is just being
RD> nasty..I think that he could have found a better way to answer this
RD> than to be such a jerk..you think...I thought this was a religious
RD> debate echo, not a Flame echo..am I wrong? Please correct me if I am.
Mark Craig, the target of the diatribe you quoted, wasn't engaging in
religious debate either, unless you consider religious debate to be "the
Jews are the Anti-Christ; Hitler didn't kill enough of them... except, of
course, for the fact that Hitler didn't really kill any of them! The
Holocaust is a hoax created by the Jew media!" and other bullshit anti-semite
doggeral such as that.
Jack Butler
... Certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Question
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:26:37
EID:2771 20921340
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6566522d
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d4
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
MC> Recently a pyramid was built in Memphis. It is similar to
MC> the pyramid on the dollar-bill, except in place of the eye,
MC> the top is blue. I understand that there is occult
MC> symbolism there. Would anyone like to elaborate?
JH> Haven't you ever noticed how "BLUE" rhymes with "JEW" ?
JH> Think about it...
You evil, evil, evil person. B)
Jack Butler
... Dies irae. Dies illa.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Reality Bites
|Date: 16 Apr 96 12:58:15
EID:6ced 20906740
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 316e6cdb
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6be
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
TR> That's the idea. God is omnipotent, right? Can do anything at
TR> all, right? So... have him present himself in a manner
TR> detectable by scientific instruments. Shouldn't be too hard,
TR> should it?
LW> You mean the entire physical universe isn't enough of a presentation?
The physical universe cannot be taken as evidence of God until you have
shown some sort of conclusive evidence that shows that this "God" person
of
yours was somehow responsible for the physical universe. Having this "God"
person of yours present himself before the media with at least two forms
of
ID, in my opinion and my opinion only, be evidence for God's existance,
but
not evidence of his having created the universe.
Do you think you can arrange for this "God" guy to show up on, say, the
Today show? Maybe he could do a cooking segment with Katie Curic.
LW> Thus providing more evidence for my theory that Dan does _not_ want
LW> clear, understandable, intelligent conversation.
Heh. Interesting, if incorrect, interpretation. But by now I would
think you are used to misinterpreting things.
Jack Butler
... Being a hero means you've got to do stupid things once in a while.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Carl Linde
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:36:48
EID:ef5d 20921480
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316B3563
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d5
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
CL> Now to stay on topic. I see that you have a closed mind when it comes
CL> to accepting or even listening to any ideas that do not follow exactly
CL> what you were taught in the lopsided schooling that you received. If
CL> both sides of the issue were presented in school, then there might
be
CL> more open-minded people, instead of closed-minded, educated, intolerant
CL> bafoons.
Ummm... its "bufoons", not "bafoons". Also, I find it very interesting
indeed that you equate "educated" with "closed-minded" and "intolerant"
(not
to mention the aforementioned "bufoon" thing).
The problem with your statement is that, in truth, you don't want people
to *really* open their mind and consider both sides of the argument. In
point
of fact, the last thing you want them to do is to look at both sides. You
say that evolution is merely a "THEORY (never completely proven)", but
unfailingly you (and here by "you" I mean those who have preceded you in
this
argument... the people who attempted to argue against evolution before you
came along) cannot offer even the slimmest evidence for your own case.
Not
only that, but when you "disprove" the facts supporting evolution, you (and
here, again, I am speaking of more than just you individually) can never
offer evidence supporting your "refutation".
You are not asking people to think, or to open their minds, or (despite
what you say above) to consider both sides of the argument. Instead you
are
asking people to ignore the evidence and make a leap of faith. The
creationist viewpoint (that God created man and the animals as they appear
now, and that evolution is incorrect) asks us to ignore the evidence and
just
*believe*. In point of fact, all arguments against evolution boil down
to
"but if you just *belive*, you'd see how wrong it was".
Ignoring the facts in order to stick to a personal opinion isn't being
open-minded. It's being willfully ignorant.
And I want to point out that, by saying this, I am not being "closed
minded", this is being open-minded enough to weigh both sides. This is
not
being "intolerant", this is being intelligent. And far from being "gullible",
this is being most credulous. This is, in fact, looking at all the arguments
and coming to an informed decision.
Jack Butler
... "Shhh... the Christians think they're the only ones here." -- God
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: The Raven
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Self-portrait: Mark Craig
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:20:53
EID:ac3d 20921280
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3416ebb8
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d3
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
SM> Note how I adjusted the tongue...... [g]
Ooooh.... all the points go to you this round. Heritage Prep will just
have to catch up in the lightning round...
Jack Butler
... "This guy's beginning to crisp my cape..." -- DarkWing Duck
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Steamed Rice
|Date: 16 Apr 96 13:08:12
EID:f8d7 20906900
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1c5
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6bf
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
EF> Once his hidden premise is seen, we can see Fred's question is a type
EF> of interrogation fallacy: a "have you stopped beating your wife?"
EF> question. It is a ploy common to lawyers and politicians.
In defense of myself and other lawyers, I'd like to state unequivocably
that I cannot recall having ever used this tactic on this echo.
Jack Butler
... "What's so amazing about really deep thoughts?" -- Tori Amos
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Bill Arnold
|Sub: The Apocalypse
|Date: 17 Apr 96 04:47:05
EID:8a17 209125e0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:123/318 57116564
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6c3
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
BA> The Jew that accepts Christ as Lord is my brother. He is to be esteemed,
BA> as he is the original part of the Vine: I have been grafted on. Until
BA> he becomes a Christian: he is the antichrist (1st.jn), and a child of
the
BA> devil -- jn.8:44.
Sehmohee abokantao okebee, dinglberry. And the horse you rode in on.
Jack Butler
... Who is really wishing that the Seminoles took scalps...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: [1/2] ALLEGORY
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:16:00
EID:81b0 20910a00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E39
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 00:03, Al Schroeder got back to Marilyn Burge
MB> even if it later turns out to be a given. Ptolemy could have
MB> shouted that factoid from the rooftops, and all most people in
AS> But the point was, Ptolemy's claims were taken as Gospel for over a
AS> thousand years...a thousand years where people accepted both the
"(T)aken as Gospel"?
Very nice choice of wording, Al! I don't think I could have
done better. At least not in 2,000 yrs...
... I walk the fine line between fantasy and science fiction.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 10:18:00
EID:8d0d 20915240
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E3A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 19:02, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> In fact, the question of Federal vs. States Rights are
DC> still be hotly contended...
JH> Only by those who don't understand Article VI.
JH> "2. This constitution, and the laws of the United States which
JH> shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or
You have to jump forward to Amendment X:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people."
... Does that imply that the opposite of CONstitution is PROstitution?
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a C
|Date: 16 Apr 96 15:44:00
EID:f5fb 20907d80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 23:38, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> statements to show that he thought he was a "true xian",
DC> contrary to your quotes against it.
JH> that it depends upon takeing Hitler's public statements at face
JH> value.
JH> A dangerous assumption to make when dealing with any person seeking
JH> or holding public office, let alone Adolf Hitler.
This is true, and can be easily applied to anyone in the public eye,
including those that profit directly from such a stance: preachers.
My mother just told me about an assistant pastor who left that
parish. Not to leave the priesthood, but to go to work at another
parish. The reason wasn't that he was needed at his new locatation
but the he would be paid better there.
... Miracles are an irrelevancy..... faith is the reality of religion.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 16 Apr 96 15:47:00
EID:9f35 20907de0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 15:37, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> green, although Myxzptlk is still around and created one piece of red
SA> I bet they took a bunch of Scrabble pieces and put 'em into a hat,
SA> and simply drew at random, writing down each letter as it came out.
However, I'm sure they took out all of the vowells before they
started the drawing.. Hmmm, just how much would that word be worth
as a triple letter score?
... "Nature doesn't cheat - people do." James Randi
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 16 Apr 96 15:50:00
EID:a99c 20907e40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 07:00, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> Such as Jericho not existing at the time Joshua destroyed it?
AS> Huh??? I thought Jerico was the oldest city we knew of,
AS> archeologically. Or am I thinking of something else?
Check Asimov's _Guide to the Bible_. The city that Joshua supposedly
destroyed was not there at that time. I don't have a copy here,
but it should be readily available at the library.
... (A)bort (R)etry (I)nfluence with a larger hammer.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laura Hodgkins
|Sub: angles
|Date: 16 Apr 96 15:56:00
EID:1ab8 20907f00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 13:11, Laura Hodgkins got back to Dan Ceppa
-> LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is
-> possible to LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
->
-> It would depend on which type of mushrooms you are eating.
LH> I'm not eating any mushrooms, I don't even like them. i'm trying to
LH> be serious here.
And my previous reply to you was serious.
Now, if you have a guardian angel, do wing it out her so that
we could take pot shots at it.
... Next time, it will be 100 rounds of 30mm depleted uranium.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: better than
|Date: 16 Apr 96 16:00:00
EID:e790 20908000
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 22:29, Preston Simpson got back to Robert Jackson
RJ> Wow, does that mean you can, like, do that geek trick where
RJ> you hammer a nail into your nostril?
PS> Goodness, no. Not that I've ever *tried*, of course. What if the
PS> hammer should miss?
Just buy a new and better hammer to replace it...
... It's Ensign Hooker. She's head, Jim.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: better than
|Date: 17 Apr 96 20:38:00
EID:e2b1 2091a4c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E3E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 18:36, Ed Mills got back to Dan Ceppa
DM> your nostril when your upper lip rusts . . .
PS> That's why one uses galvanized nails, silly.
DC> Use PTFE coated nails... You can shoot them with a nail gun
EM> Jesus H. Christ, what is this, a carpenter's convention?
EM> Myself, I prefer a channel aluminum cross and a pop rivetool
EM> for this type of installation.
ROTFL! What's that? The latest in hi-tech crucifictions?
The only time I use a pop riveter is when I destroy and have to
fix fittings on my sailboat. (Yep, I'm getting handy with it!)
... It must be spring time, Dan's talking about sailing!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Chicken shit
|Date: 16 Apr 96 20:44:00
EID:4b02 2090a580
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 11:53, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
SR> Walk into a solid brick wall. Thanks for the demonstration.
LW> the experiment because the two theories in question predict the same
LW> results. That means the experiment is useless.
Not if reality is only in your mind. I see you are still trying
to say that but avoid the experiment. Try concentrating on the
concrete and think of it as a soft pillow. See how your perception
of reality doesn't matter.
... Avoid the Tate's Compass: "He who has a Tate's is lost!"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 17 Apr 96 10:24:00
EID:1434 20915300
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E3B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 01:03, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> of the fundy-two-step movements.
DC> to Montezuma's Revenge...
SA> I've had Montezuma's Revenge (actually, since I contract it from
SA> local water, it should probably be Tecumseh's Revenge), and even
Sounds like giardia(sp?).
SA> then I didn't dance as fast as Jesse does.
He's making break dances look like they are in slo-mo.
... + Origin: MALARIA, NETWORK! SHIVERING YELLOW SHITS FOR JESUS!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Creator God
|Date: 16 Apr 96 16:10:00
EID:c72d 20908140
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 06:07, Jesse Jones got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> JJ> Do you truly believe that professing Christians who embrace
DC> JJ> Evil do so in the name of the one God? No. Either they
DC> JJ> mistake their own evil for righteousness, as in the case of the
DC> JJ> abortionist killers, or they opt for "the devil made me do it."
DC>You are the last people that I would have suspected would use the
DC>term, "not true-xian".
JJ> Not that I give a sh*t about your expectations, but I did
Are you using the past-perfect form of the word, ng "shat" or
are you just shutting your eyes again?
JJ> *not* "use the term, 'not true-xian'."
Which is why I put it in parenthesis, rather than pointing it out
under you quote. Now, re-read what you wrote and show where that
mening is not implied with what you wrote.
... "Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning." - Jesse Jones, 9/23/93
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 16 Apr 96 20:15:00
EID:cb6d 2090a1e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 21:14, Martin Goldberg got back to Lee Woofenden
LW> question: How does walking into a solid brick wall demonstrate
LW> that reality is material?
MG> You do the experiment. You first drive your Maserati a 100 mph past
a
MG> point in space where you percieve there to be nothing. Then you drive
A lot flashier than Hector's Experiment, and a lot more expensive, too!
... Barney the dinosaur is the AntiChrist... I have proof. Charodey
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Genesis problems [1/4]
|Date: 16 Apr 96 20:39:00
EID:9a55 2090a4e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-12-96 09:02, Jerry Gilbreath got back to Sue Armstrong
SA> * Some, like koalas, require a special diet. How did they bring
JG> We don't know about the koalas' diet at that time or what plants grew
JG> near the ark.
Just how stupid are you?
... Just another gob of snot on the great Kleenex of life.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Bill Arnold
|Sub: Hebes
|Date: 16 Apr 96 20:47:00
EID:7c96 2090a5e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 01:21, Bill Arnold got back to All
BA> Help Marlon Brando! Do your good deed for today: call a "hymie" a
Fuck off, Craig.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 16 Apr 96 21:01:00
EID:6822 2090a820
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 09:01, Al Schroeder got back to Elliott Finesse
> (Applause).
EF> You are, shall we say, somewhat premature. Sorry Al!
AS> Am I? You were forced to at least equivocate on one. And I think
Seems like someone else showed that was not necessary, on both
counts.
AS> Michael will have some more for you. BTW, which translation of the
AS> Bible are you consulting?
Thing is, that's the point. The bible gets re-written and
re-interpreted at ever juncture. However, the glaring errors
still seem to crop up.
Have you seen the post on the debate? Marylin Burge, I think,
posted that one...
... The Pope can afford his own his own country. Can your minister?
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 16 Apr 96 21:03:00
EID:2528 2090a860
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 15:53, Michael Hardy got back to Elliott Finesse
MH> hotels and such. The New International Version has parentheses where
MH> I indicated in *both* examples.
It's a bug fix, Mikey. Plain and simple. After all, the Hebrews
did not use periods, let alone parentheses.
... "I'd be a Christian...if it wasn't for Christians." - Ghandi
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 16 Apr 96 21:07:00
EID:d421 2090a8e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 12:01, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> What can I say? He learned his writing and reading comprehension
DC> from Lee Woofenden...
LW> People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. See my continuing
LW> series on your poor grammar and syntax.
It will at least keep you off the streets, sort of... Whether it keeps
you
from going SPLAT on a concrete block is up to you. After all, you
have continued to avoid doing the Experiment.
... Life is that brief interlude between nothingness and oblivion.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ralph Jansen
|Sub: Omni-impotence
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:16:00
EID:cb11 20910200
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 18:40, Ralph Jansen got back to Malady Keane
RJ> would you feel? He has every right to have all of His creation worship
RJ> Him. He made it all, and He is God
Did you ever stop to think that if your god was "God" he wouldn't
need slaves?
Dind't think you did...
... If God can flush me, why does He get upset when I return the favor?
gr
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:20:00
EID:9e3b 20910280
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 04:15, George Mooth got back to All
GM> FAMILY FIRST
I see you are playing the game the whole family can enjoy:
Incest. Learned that from Lot in the bible, didn't you.
... Fundies are like farts. All smoke, and they leave a bad smell.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:34:00
EID:869e 20910440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 07:16, Jerry Gilbreath got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>Explain the limestone on top of Mt Everest.
JG> Actually, I was waiting for a reply from the evolutionists on
JG> this. Does this mean that you give up?
You really are as stupid as you post, aren't you. It has nothing at
all to do with evolution. However, you didn't and don't know that.
Care to describe how long it takes for an inch of limestone to
accumulate?
I give you a hint: It's a lot more than one year.
... Jerry Gilbreath: Lord...Liar...Lunatic.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 17 Apr 96 10:29:00
EID:869e 209153a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E3C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 08:46, Jerry Gilbreath got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>"Lucy" shows that you are wrong, by a factor of 400 or so. As to
DC>the earth, you are off by about a factor of 2.5 thousand.
JG> "Lucy" is a good example of the confusion among evolutionists
JG> This information is from the book, Evolution: The Challenge of the
JG> Fossil Record by Duane T. Gish, Ph.D.
That impresses no one except yourself and Gish.
The source of your "rebutal" is worthless. Try using information
from real scientists from a peer reviewed journal the next time.
... "Evolution: The fossils say no!"- Gish; "Gish is an idiot"-fossils.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 17 Apr 96 10:33:00
EID:96bf 20915420
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E3D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 11:19, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> JG> Do you have any more to add?
DC>You, as the missing link between a Fundy and a Moron. After all,
KW> Dan, I wonder if Jerry exhibits double arched brow ridges, no canine
KW> fossa, and short bulging occipital bone?
They can be surmised from that fact that his knucles scrape on the
ground when he attrempts walk. <-typo left in there to keep Lee
Wolfenden off the streets and over into the gutter, where he belongs.
... "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.": Napoleon
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 17 Apr 96 20:40:00
EID:96bf 2091a500
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E3F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 11:19, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> JG> Do you have any more to add?
DC>You, as the missing link between a Fundy and a Moron. After all,
KW> Dan, I wonder if Jerry exhibits double arched brow ridges, no canine
KW> fossa, and short bulging occipital bone?
A photo may help. Then again, we could perform a dissection. Do
you think we should pith him first?
... "Millions murdered by Christians are unable to call it a death cult"FR
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Self-portrait: Mark Craig
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:41:00
EID:cf8c 20910520
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 01:08, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> The blank stare and the foaming tongue says it all...
AS> Mark Craig's self-portrait?
AS> And notice the lack of genitalia....
That's because, what little there was, was kicked up into his head!
The idiot's a troll, and even isn't good at that.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Self-portrait: Mark Craig
|Date: 17 Apr 96 20:48:00
EID:1557 2091a600
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E40
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 00:35, Sean Mccullough got back to Dan Ceppa
> that calls himself "Mark Craig", here's his rendition of him
> that he nicely provided to Preston.
oooo$$$$$$$$$$$$oooo
oo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o
oo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o o$
o$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o $$
oo$$$$$"$ o$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$o o$$$o
"$$$$$$o$ o$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$o $$$$$$
$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"""$
"$$$""""$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
o$$" $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
o$$$oooo$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ o$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$"$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$""""""""
"""" $$$$ "$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$" o$$$
"$$$o """$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"$$" $$$
$$$o "$$""$$$$$$"""" o$$$
$$$$o o$$$"
"$$$$o $$$$$$$$$$$o o$$$$
"$$$$$oo ""$$$$o$$$$$o o$$$$""
""$$$$$oooo "$$$o$$$$$$o$$"""
""$$$$$$$oo $$$$$$$$$$
""""$$$$$ $$$$$
$$$$ $$$$
$$ $$
$ $
> Note how I adjusted the tongue...... [g]
ROTFL!
You should have maybe given him another tongue, as he speaks out
of both sides of his mouth!
... You learn something useless every day.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Starwyn
|Sub: test
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:50:00
EID:4849 20910640
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E37
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 12:05, Starwyn got back to All
St> Is this getting out? I'd like to order a large pizza please, with
St> nothing on it.
Sounds like a rather large hunk of bread, toasted... I prefer at
least some sauce and cheese on mine.
How've you been, Starwyn? LT-NS
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:57:00
EID:7e76 20910720
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E38
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 11:19, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Selena Kerr
KW> with an agent who would charm him into eating the pie. Then, right
on
KW> schedule, your post showed up....
KW> Do you bake?
If she doens't, I do, and cook as well.
Now, is Ex-Lax ok to send UPS?
... Jesus is part of a trinity, Elvis' first band was a trio.
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: THE END?
|Date: 17 Apr 96 20:50:00
EID:5672 2091a640
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E41
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-13-96 17:00, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Selena Kerr <=-
DC> Not in the least. Do you like a crispy, high fiber crust?
JB> No, no, Dan. In her case it's FLAKY crust. Definitely flaky.
We'll add extra shortening, just to make sure, and fill it
with tuti-fruity...
... Italian explanation of Pi : Pizza!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: You-Know-bomber
|Date: 17 Apr 96 21:05:00
EID:ffee 2091a8a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89630E42
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 18:54, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
EF>> Hey, come to think about it, that UniBomber dude is one
DC> The funny thing about this is that my local newspaper
DC> spelled the name of the bomber: "Unabomber"! It occurred
JH> And there you have it: absolute total and complete proof that
JH> Elliott Finesse is really Fred Rice.
Thanks, J.j.... I just got a new keyboard and now I have to
get another one!
BTW, do you happen to remember who had which particular version
of the "correct" spelling? I'm assuming it was Fred that used
"Uni"...
... Yes, I know I'm off-topic. Thank you for your concern.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Defining Death
|Date: 16 Apr 96 10:37:35
EID:3f97 209054a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3173bf18
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 316fa588
Here's what Sue Armstrong said to Lee Woofenden about Defining Death:
SA> none of these things. Also, the still-living dog will eventually
SA> wake up and start doing his usual doggy things, whereas the dead
SA> dog won't ever awaken.
LW> We know the results. The question is, what makes it be that way?
SA> Complete system failure.
As good an explanation as any. But it doesn't help much when a human or
animal is at the point of death and the doctor or vet is trying to decide
whether to declare that death has occurred.
Also, many deaths occur suddenly, as from an unexpected heart attack, when
most of the body's systems are functioning fine. There are even cases when
a person was apparently literally "scared to death"--just froze up in extreme
fear and died. These don't necessarily negate your explanation, but they
do push its boundaries.
--Lee
... Death: nature's way of saying "Slow down."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Defining death
|Date: 16 Apr 96 10:53:15
EID:e7c3 209056a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3173bf1a
REPLY: 1:157/200 8e1405ec
Here's what Kevin D. Mckenzie said to Lee Woofenden about Defining death:
RM> I guess we all can recognize that a skeleton is dead. But the
RM> "dead dog" problem, as Lovelock put it (I've got these identical
RM> twin dogs, lying here asleep at my feet, and one of them just
RM> died, 2 seconds ago. What is the difference? What is it that
RM> makes the one dog alive but the other dead?) is not an easy
RM> question to answer.
SA> Well, the obvious conclusion is, that the living dog still
SA> respires, his heart still beats, cells still replace themselves,
SA> there is still brain and neural activity, and it still digests
SA> any food it might still have in its GI tract, while the dead dog
SA> does none of these things. Also, the still-living dog will
SA> eventually wake up and start doing his usual doggy things,
SA> whereas the dead dog won't ever awaken.
LW> We know the results. The question is, what makes it be that way?
KDM> You're looking at the wrong scale, Lee. You're trying to show
KDM> something micro when death is due to something macro.
It appears to me that I was asking a question, not drawing a conclusion.
Were you proposing an answer?
--Lee
... "At last I'm organized," he sighed, and died.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 16 Apr 96 10:45:29
EID:eea4 209055a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3173bf19
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 167e838e
Here's what Steve Rose said to Lee Woofenden about Epistemology 1/2:
LW> You have so far failed to demonstrate that the "real world" is
LW> material.
SR> Walk into a solid brick wall. Thanks for the demonstration.
LW> does walking into a solid brick wall demonstrate that
LW> reality is material?
That originally read "_How_ does walking into a solid brick wall demonstrate
that reality is material?" A question you still haven't answered.
SR> You're the one demonstrating it to everyone here.
On the contrary. You folks are the ones making the claim that these experiments
demonstrate that the real world is material. The burden of proof is on you.
SR> You tell us how it feels.
Here is just the key to why you haven't answered the question. It _feels_
solid and material to us, but feeling is a subjective thing. How do we know
the solidity is out there and not in the mind? How do we know it is not
projected into our mind by some larger consciousness?
How does walking into a brick wall demonstrate that reality is material,
Steve?
--Lee
... All the world's a stage, and most of us are desperately unrehearsed.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Malady Keane
|Sub: Omni-impotence
|Date: 16 Apr 96 12:20:19
EID:ca11 20906280
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3173d1d6
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 316d95a0
Here's what Malady Keane said to All about Omni-impotence:
MK> After reading some of the posts here, I would like to put forth some
MK> ideas I have concerning God's alleged omniscience, omnipotence and
MK> what not. I do not believe that God is Omni ANYTHING.
It is good to know your own beliefs before moving forward on any quest for
truth. Then you will be able to take your own biases and predilections into
account when evaluating something new you might come across.
MK> God supposedly created everything, but if he is truly omniscient
MK> he would have known from the very beginning what his creation
MK> would consist of down to the last quark even before he created
MK> it, he would have known the thoughts and actions of every human
MK> being, animal, micro-organism, and atom from that creative
MK> instant.
You assume that God is limited by time. Time is a property of the material
universe. Most conceptions of God (including most Christian conceptions
of God) place God _above_ the material universe. This would mean God is
timeless. So it is illogical to talk about what God thought "before" creating
the material universe. There was no "before" because time started with the
material universe.
From my perspective, about all we can say from a time-bound perspective
is that God _does_ know all things--past, present, and future--from a vantage
point outside of time. In God there is no passage of events that progresses
through time and space. All things of all time and space are present in
a single "here and now." To really understand this requires thinking apart
from time and space--which is not an easy thing to do.
MK> This basically means that no human being has any free will at
MK> all, you see, because if God possessed this knowledge before
MK> creation (which he must have if he is really omniscient) then
MK> every thing that exists and the actions of everything were meant
MK> to happen in that manner and order...creation was his idea, and
MK> everything was pre-planned to be this way by Him a long time ago.
Knowledge--even "foreknowledge"--does not necessarily imply control. I know
that if I let go of a ball when it is three feet off the ground, it will
fall to the ground. But I do not cause the ball to fall to the ground, nor
do I control whether or not it will fall to the ground.
Similarly, God may know what (from our perspective) we will do; that does
not necessarily imply that God is causing us to do it. God may simply be
perceiving from a timeless perspective what from our perspective we will
freely choose to do.
MK> This also makes me wonder if God has any choices of his own, his
MK> omniscience lets him know his own actions as well, thus he is
MK> held captive by his own power. Did he have any choice in
MK> creating the universe?
Choice is not the only form of freedom or omnipotence. We place much of
our freedom in being able to choose what we will do. But when it comes to
major life decisions, the actual choices are a relatively small part of
our freedom. The much greater part of our freedom is our ability to pursue
what we have chosen free from undue interference. Choice would mean nothing
if we were not able to act on what we had chosen.
God's freedom and power does not reside so much in the ability to choose
what to do, since God has no doubts or confusion on that score. Rather,
it is in the ability to actually do what s/he wants to do.
MK> Omnipotence: If God is omnipotent, then can he will himself out
MK> of existence? Can he create a stone so heavy that even HE cannot
MK> lift it? either answer, yes or no, strips him of this omnipotent
MK> status.
Power to do stupid and self-destructive things is a rather illusory and
self-limiting form of power. We have the power to kill ourselves, but generally
speaking, it is not a very smart thing to do. Why would God _want_ to will
him/herself out of existence? Why would God _want_ to create a stone so
heavy that even s/he cannot lift it?
God has the power to do anything s/he _wants_ to. Power to do something
God doesn't want to do wouldn't add anything to that.
MK> Christians believe God to be the perfect loving being, totally
MK> without flaw. Yet, by his own words he IS flawed. He claims to
MK> be a jealous god who yearns to be worshipped. This is clear
MK> evidence of insecurity, and why would an all powerful, all
MK> knowing being desire ANYTHING?
Apparently, you have uncritically adopted the inerrantist view of the Bible.
Do you personally believe that the literal statements of the Bible are God's
own words? If not, your statement above might be a good argument to make
with inerrantists, but it would be useless for you to decide on your own
belief in God--or lack thereof.
MK> Christianity states that Lucifer rebelled in heaven and was thus
MK> cast out. How did Lucifer have the capacity to grasp the concept
MK> of evil? Since Lucifer was God's creation, Lucifer thus was/is
MK> essentially OF God originally, so the capacity for evil must
MK> have existed also in God himself.
As you may have gathered from my statement just above, I do not subscribe
to the inerrantist view that the Bible contains the literal truth throughout.
I see the Lucifer story as a myth or parable, if you will, of humankind's
fall from a primitive state of closeness to God and nature to our current
state of being a mixture of good and evil motives, thoughts, and actions.
My basic view on evil is that God did not create it, but did create human
beings with freedom of choice. This freedom of choice made it possible for
human beings (not God) to create evil by twisting the good that comes from
God into something it was not originally intended to be.
This is a big subject. I would be happy to follow it farther with you if
you are interested.
MK> Thats about enough, any of you Holy Rollers who think you can
MK> defend yourself and your feeble relgion, be my guest....I have
MK> much more for you later....
It's not all that hard to attack feeble religions. But that won't help you
much if you are searching for truth. The most honest and effective way to
search for truth is to search out the _strongest_ religion and then enter
into dialog with it.
My observation is that you are raising some good questions, but only considering
the views of the weakest theologies. You will never arrive at truth that
way.
MK> Imperiously,
MK> MALIETHORN
Do you emulate the imperious God you despise?
--Lee
... Your God is too small.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: the problem with Chri
|Date: 16 Apr 96 11:59:54
EID:bf1c 20905f60
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 3173d1d5
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895F0E2D
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to All about the problem with Chri:
-> On 04-10-96 22:56, Elliott Finesse got back to Lee Woofenden
EF> Hey, come to think about it, that UniBomber dude is one sincere mother
This message from Elliott never reached me.
DC> The funny thing about this is that my local newspaper spelled the
DC> name of the bomber: "Unabomber"! It occurred both in the title
DC> of the article as well as the body.
That's because it _is_ spelled "Unabomber." I thought it was weird the first
time I saw it too. As I recall, it's an acronym (sort of) for UNiversity
Airline Bomber, since the early attacks were on professors and airline executives.
--Lee
... 90% of the time I'm right, so why worry about the other 3%?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 17 Apr 96 13:44:24
EID:3d03 20916d80
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 578c05db
REPLY: 1:252/107 3172ccb1
On (15 Apr 96) Selena Kerr wrote to Lynda Bustilloz...
SK> Umm.. I don't know about you.. but I don't think I recall saying
SK> anything to Don Martin...
Maybe you should work on your memory. Read this:
Ä HolySmoke (1:3615/1.11) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ HOLYSMOKE
Ä
Msg : 3341 of 4900 +3486
From : Selena Kerr 1:252/107 04 Apr 96 18:41:06
To : Don Martin 06 Apr 96 03:06:38
Subj : Re: The end?
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
|07-=> Quoting Don Martin to Selena Kerr <=-`03`03
DM> By the evidence of the way your mind works, as
DM> demonstrated by your posts.
DM> A number doubtless limited to those who read your stuff.
You're mean. What the fuck did i do to deserve this. I guess that is what
I get
for displaying my views which happen to differ from those of a christian
loser.
I'm sorry. never again.
-+- GEcho 1.11+
+ Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
SK> not implying that he is a christian and he is a loser...
That is exactly what you implied above.
SK> i don't really care.. i just call it as i see it.
The you need new glasses.
SK> aboutme bashing don martin.. didn't even say a
SK> word to him
Liar.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God Shuffled His Feet (1:3615/1.11)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HOLY SMOKE
|Date: 18 Apr 96 05:59:00
EID:5822 20922f60
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Judith Bandsma <=-
AS> (All the twenty-somethings just went "Huh?" Trust me, people; you
AS> would have had to have been there, in the sixties.)
Oh yes, Al, I remember that one. I was also playing off the 'New Riders'
song 'Down to Seeds and Stems Again Blues'.
... Not now . . . I have to go mow the laundry.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 06:18:00
EID:5e01 20923240
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to J.j. Hitt <=-
AS> of an 18th century skeptic saying that Troy was just a myth...until
it
AS> was discovered in the 19th century.
Uh, Al, just how many Troys were found? I'm thinking it was something like
4 or 5 but I know for sure it was more than one.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 18 Apr 96 06:27:00
EID:2070 20923360
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Judith Bandsma <=-
AS> protagonists--STILL FARMS ON FOXFIELD, about Quaker settlers in a
AS> world called Foxfield. In it, she sacrifices none of her pacifism,
That one rings a bell, but I can't say that I read it...maybe only a
review of it.
I'd suggest 'The Peaceable Kingdom' and 'The Lamb's War', both by Jan
de Hartog. However, the Quaker fiction out there doesn't come close to
the journals of the people who were there at the beginning. (Boring as
they can be in places.)
... Tagline not found: Moderator deleted.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: t-rex in trucks w/sails 1
|Date: 18 Apr 96 06:52:00
EID:cb6b 20923680
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Jerry Gilbreath <=-
JG> cube rule used by body builders to dinosaurs.
You think he's nuts? Take a look at what I found in a GENEALOGY newsgroup.
. (headers stripped)
============================================================================
From: phil-k@actrix.gen.nz (Phil Kristament)
Subject: Er, Sorry But It's True, Read This To Be Enlightened
Around 600,000 years ago this planet was discovered by an extra-terrestrial
race of Dinosaurs. T-Rex from a smaller planet than Earth, much larger
than their extinct Earthly counterparts, these are like a cross between
Earth's shorter tailed T-Rex and the longer tailed desert dwelling
Spinosaurus Rex. In any event they are originally desert dwellers.
Many people scoff at the suggestion that T-Rex could become space travelers
because of the fossil evidence that their arms on Earth were short and useless
for anything. Indeed most fossil evidence shows the forearm is broken.
However had the battle between Iguanadon and T-Rex continued, the Rex would
evolve longer arms to fend off the Iguanadons thumbs, as happened in the
evolution of this extra-terrestrial T-Rex. They have two fingers and a
thumb.
The T-Rex brain of which we have a fossilized Earthly specimen shows that
part of their brain fulfilled the function of the frontal-lobe in homo
sapien, this portion of the T-Rex brain was slightly smaller than modern
man's frontal lobe. It was located in the center of the T-Rex brain which
in total was larger than modern man's. The brain of Earth's T-Rex
consisted of a central portion from which sprout nodes dedicated to mainly
it's sensory organs (eyes, nose etc.). The Earth T-Rex must have been a
cunning hunter.
This extra-terrestrial T-Rex with it's huge head and it's brain extending
into it's nose, has a brain the size of a cabbage and an average IQ (it
claims) of 210.
Earth's dinosaurs are widely considered to have been more like birds in
their cardio-vascular structure and metabolism. They held the early
mammals down for 200 million years until events overcame their reproductive
method.
Recent evidence from China suggests that the dinosaurs as well as the large
sea lizards (which both laid large hard-shelled eggs) developed a disease
thereof and no large eggs survived into the next geographical period.
Birds developed from the small feathered dinosaur, osteo something or rather,
the point being that it laid smaller eggs which could survive the loss of
shell strength.
Their vision is that of the bird, the near 360 degree vision except for
a
gap of ten or so degrees in the front and the rear. If you look at the
Tuatara of New Zealand you will notice the animal has still got a third
eye, making it a close cousin of the dinosaur. The extra-terrestrial
T-Rex has this third eye and looks a little like a Cyclops.
It senses movement only, not light, and covers the ten degrees directly
in
front of the animal. T-Rex has exactly 72 teeth, made to rip it's prey.
T-Rex victims unless they are small like us, bleed to death.
I refer now exclusively to the extra-terrestrial T-Rex.
In the ten million years since they discovered "spinning iridium" (see below)
which is more or less the total amount of time they have been inter-stellar
explorers, they have discovered 70 life supporting planets. Whether these
planets orbit 70 separate stars or not I don't know. What I do know is that
of the 70 life supporting planets, 40 have been colonized. The dominant
life forms of these planets were in 90 percent of cases, Dinosaur or
Crocodilian. Many, like this T-Rex had high IQ's, but were all ultimately
destroyed. The Rex are a monarchy, which in itself is not wrong, depending
upon the monarch and what he decides.
In the case of the dominant life forms of the aforementioned 40 colonized
planets his decision was distasteful.
Their technology is well advanced. It hinges on the optical computer.
These crystalline devices process the electro magnetic spectrum, making
use
somehow of refracted light, processing based on color. The computers must
be crystalline to put up with the incredible inertial forces of spin.
To refer briefly to Einstein's special theory. Einstein said that as matter
approaches the speed of light it's relative mass increases towards infinity.
What can be inferred and what does happen is that as a UFO begins to spin
faster and faster in space, using it's electro magnetic fingers to grip
the planet, it's relative mass increases, it becomes smaller from the
perspective of the present and it's event horizon moves into the future.
When they are the size of a single human cell relative to the present
their event horizon is 18 months into the future. How do they get back?
It takes an hour of real-time. But wait, this gets even better. You can
network these RV's and send their data back in time using faster than C.
For as long as your viewing device is operational (the UFO) you can see
the future and unlike the present or the past, the future can be changed.
They also track missiles, record brain waves, provide anti-grav and a small
opening on the engine makes an atomic match providing atomic napalm.
We don't have any of these machines and we're in big trouble.
Now the engine. The UFO is composed of a crystalline computer at the center.
Crystalline appetures from around the rim to the center provide the input.
A spinning donut is supported in an electro-magnetic coil. The donut is
self contained except for short exhaust requirements. It is caused to spin
at approaching 10% light speed. Inside is a hollow chamber, a coil within
a coil if you like, in which is a flowing ionized gas. The gas is caused
to
flow, again with electro-magnetic coils, and the net effect is a gas flowing
close to 90% of light speed.
Into the gas is fed plutonium dust. You don't need a kilo to get a critical
mass from what is sometimes a single molecule strand of plutonium, it's
just
too damn close and gets damn hot damned quick. Fission, but wait, there's
more, simply add Hydrogen for Fission/Fusion. The reaction, adequately
maintained, produces a huge amount of electricity which gets fed back into
the system like a jet engine 70% to the engine 30% can be drawn off for
whatever.
Anti-grav occurs when space is stretched by a very heavy (has to be spinning
vvf) UFO using this electricity to direct lots of electro-magnetic pulses
towards a solid mass. If the UFO is sitting beneath a truck at the time
it
gives the effect of lengthening the distance between the truck and the
ground, it stretches space so to speak.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: t-rex in trucks w/sails 2
|Date: 18 Apr 96 06:53:00
EID:ca2b 209236a0
TRUCKS -
Now various military and Governments have known about the UFO's for some
time and military and secret service empires have been built on hushing
it
all up. And recently (1993) they discovered the trucks. Now I wish we
had
behaved in a more civilized manner but the silly buggers have secretly been
launching (atomic) missiles at the one truck they can actually see.
The T-Rex have over 200 of these trucks but they only need 70 to trash our
ass and drag us, our precious metals, and our sacred cows off to be turned
into sausages.
How do I know all this? Mainly gravitation waves. It is so unreal the
number of simple things have complex results if you are a piece of spinning
iridium. Like vibrating a small belt of metal at your rim. It slowly gets
used up but gravitation waves are the result. I guess you've got to take
this on trust. It is only a synopsis after all.
Their missiles (we really don't want to have anything to do with it because
they acted despotically not diplomatically, claiming they had been involved
in some sort of conflict in x-wood, didn't even stop to wonder wether
the truck was part of the same crowd), their missiles have been turned into
background radiation by the laser-cannons on the truck. In fact given their
aim so far the T-Rex have been saving lives, several burnt teeth would have
bitten human flesh.
HISTORY -
As I say 600,000 years ago and every 2,000 years since then a fleet of trucks
would turn up and harvest the wildebeest and the herd animals of the plains.
Our ancestors, large apes of all sorts, were prized delicacy. It's not
as if
we were passed over then.
As little as fifty thousand years ago mankind was a much more diverse species.
A cousin to homo-sapien, not Neanderthal, survived an ice age. It is a
large aboriginal man covered with hair. It's kind took to living
underground for long enough to develop a crude calendar and survive a
harvest or two. Fifty thousand years ago they sent out runners across all
the known continents and poisoned all the herd animals. All of them.
Nothing but dust in the trucks.
The T-Rex had never seen a bigger waste of life. Although this planet is
too large for them when fully grown, they cloned a princess. She wandered
out of the ocean, a yellow T-Rex, already large compared to a man although
the clone had not yet achieved a body age of seven. The animal had
intensively dreamed back it's memories, all faithfully recorded over the
many lifetimes it had lived in the three million years of it's existence.
The Rex monarchy through their princess did a deal with these hairy cousins
of ours. To farm their hairless neighbors, us, whose civilization had not
yet arisen. In return for cleaning up after the harvest of our kind,
killing off the remaining people and their knowledge, they would be cloned
anew. "And the devil would rule for a thousand years.," Man that must
have been gruesome. These yeti like creatures were already cannibalizing
us. They were warned at the time that our kind would one day out evolve
them, especially if any hardy ones survived.
They were provided weapons, (what I describe as spinning iridium) that also
recorded their thoughts. In the fifty thousand years that have followed
there have been many harvests. The last one some 9,500 years ago.
The T-Rex do not appear interested in peace. It has even been suggested
that should we take to living underground they would consider melting the
polar ice caps so that there was only a small area to bombard.
In fact this I believe to have been that princess's main mission. To
co-ordinate the collection of a large percentage of the planet's gene pool
of life, before either this newly intelligent life form eradicated many
species or before they themselves invoked the final solution and destroyed
all life to rid themselves of a small percentage of it.
These cousins of ours fell for it lock stock and barrel. The T-Rex decide
whether they come back or no. And their population has been small since
they learned the truth. As ours should have been, a small band of stoics,
but here we are,,, They have tested a virus 100% effective so filter air
and water and live in places not likely to be flooded by the poles melting.
Have a lot of entrances but don't interconnect and form too large a
community. Many separate secret places is best.
I'm truly sorry, for me and for you!
Good luck.
P.S.
If someone would be kind enough if they hear of my death, to enforce my
body be burned in a real incinerator. I would hate some of my chromsones
fall into the wrong hands. Know what I mean???
P.P.S
If you want to know more of these trucks, their propulsion is fascinating.
When around a planet they detach large sails which they leave in space,
and use rockets and anti-grav. To harvest they use a cyclonic action which
is powerful enough to uproot power poles. Inside the trucks robot arms
will winckle you out of your cars if you're not third world and only riding
a scooter.
SAILS -
From all areas of the universe or the galaxy more or less equally cosmic
rays,
background radiation left over from the big bang, not to be confused with
cosmic waves from the sun. The trucks use huge amounts of electricity to
cut the cosmic rays with electro-magnetic around the sail so that the rays
hitting from the rear give propulsion. A sailing ship they reach %80+ of
light speed when travelling to the closest colonised planet. 70 or 80
light years away.
It could happen any time. One truck approximately equal one harvest in
T-Rex economic terms it's just we don't yet seem to have the weapons to
hold them off. If they cut the head off the snake and don't harvest I
reckon we owe them everything and would best be advised to do anything
they ask, but in the mean-time, don't just give in because it's hopeless.
It's only hopeless at first glance.
We could embarrass them (the T-Rex) with how cooly we react. After the
initial shock we would recover, but we can't wait for mercy I don't believe
they (the T-Rex) are going to show. Yet if you knew of the decisions taken
and their analysis of events so far you would want the military top brass
replaced with a dimplomatic/scientific committee. You would also wan't
government assistance to set up a committee for survival and it had better
do something.
goodbye/goodluck.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/19 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:31:00
EID:cfb6 2090bbe0
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D068
KDM>MB>KDM>Like what?
KDM>MB>
KDM>MB>KDM>The Big Bang? Sorry, there's evidence for that.
KDM>MB>
KDM>MB>very shakey evidence.
KDM> Do you have any idea what the 4 K background temperature is?
Or
KDM>why the universe is expanding? Both of those were predicted by the
BB
KDM>theory, and both were shown to be true. If you've got a better
KDM>explanation, drag it out.
Well yes I have read a few things on the subject but I still do not know
for sure what happend.
KDM>MB>KDM>Evolution? Evidence for that, too.
KDM>MB>
KDM>MB>Yes some really dotted lines, and a fake or two, but they have just
KDM>MB>about got it worked out now.
KDM>Huh? What do you call several hundreds of millions of years of fossils?
Evidence that animals have been here for some time. As for the time
element I don't know how long it was when they were formed.
the dotted lines I was talking about was in Man's "evolution".
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3819/163 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:33:00
EID:8b87 2090bc20
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D069
MG> MB> Thats about the size of it. That is why God promiesed never to do
MG> MB> it again.
MG>Then why have there been floods since that time that damaged property
and
MG>persons. Killed thousands during heavy rains in India. Why are there
droug
MG>and diseases?
MG>Why has your god not kept his promise.
He promised never to destroy the whole world that way again, so he has
keep his promise or we would not be haveing this talk.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Misspelled? Impossible. My modem is error correcting.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3819/163 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:36:00
EID:5546 2090bc80
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D06A
PS>It's rough, crude, and you'll be lucky to get a decent answer within
three
PS>significant figures, but that's about how much water (in cubic miles
or
PS>whatever units you used) it would take to flood the earth. As you can
see
PS>from the number you'll get (I can't remember the exact figure for the
PS>hydrosphere), it's about three times the size of the actual hydrosphere.
I will give it a shot.
PS> PS>Even if you got this extra water from somewhere (where?), then it
still
PS> PS>has to go back there when the flood's over (the water cycle is a
closed
PS> PS>one, see?).
PS> MB> I understand that we us the same water over and over again.
PS>Good. Those some of the problems confronting those who say that there
was a
PS>global flood--and those are the easy ones. Melting the icecaps isn't
PS>enough to do the job--that would raise the water level by perhaps 300
feet.
Well I have no Idea were the water came from.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
* LAKOTA v1.5
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3819/163 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:42:00
EID:e5af 2090bd40
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D06C
RB>MB> RB>BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Holysmoke, the devil's pit!
RB>MB>
RB>MB> You realy should see someone about that.
RB>Why, haven't you ever seen a wicked, evil, possessed by Satan laugh
before?
Why yes I have, But I'm much better now.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * "Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mark Twain.
* LAKOTA v1.5
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SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3819/163 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:43:00
EID:1818 2090bd60
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D06D
KS>MB>LB>of the earth opened up. So, we had a flatter earth, rain coming
down
KS>MB>LB>and water coming up violently from below the earth, so as little
as 3
KS>MB>LB>inch of rain an hour for 40 days would cover the earth (we had
close t
KS>MB>LB>that in Iowa in 1993). Also, this would have broke up the land
mass, a
KS>MB>LB>brought about mountains from the violent earthquakes that would
have
KS>MB>I am going to save this and if you don't mind I might use the ideals
in
KS>MB>it later?
KS>Just be sure you don't try to use these 'ideals' on someone with a
KS>brain.
I will try to rember that.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Coincide: What you do when it starts to rain...
* LAKOTA v1.5
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SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3819/163 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:44:00
EID:4c2b 2090bd80
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D06E
GF> MB> Thats about the size of it. That is why God promiesed never to do
it
GF> MB> again.
GF>Come on Mark, you must've read the Noah FAQ. Surely you can see that
to
GF>believe that the Noah's Ark scenario was a reality borders on mental
illness
No I do not see it that way to me it is a fact of my faith.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Gosh, that sounds like a Prozac moment!
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:46:00
EID:9267 2090bdc0
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D06F
KD> MB> Thats about the size of it. That is why God promiesed never to do
it
KD> MB> again.
KD>It seems to me that if one promises never to do something again, it was
KD>a mistake. Does that mean God isn't perfect?
No it means that God did not whant to destroy the earth in that way
again.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Backup not found: (P)anic, (S)uicide, (K)ill bystanders
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:47:00
EID:8f4b 2090bde0
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D070
FR>mb> You got me. I have no Ideal.
FR>FR> Don't you event CARE about the truth, Mark?
FR>mb> No I know the truth, I just can not adequately explain it to you.
FR>The truth requires no one to explain, Mark, merely present it.
The truth is in the Bible.
FR>mb> Your Brother in Christ,
FR>Here you are trying to give your intellectual superiors an Alpha Male
FR>construct. Don't you think that's pretty ignorant?
No I am trying to be freindly.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * (A)bort, (R)etry, (S)mack the friggin thing
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Someone please lend Mr. B
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:41:00
EID:fe95 2090bd20
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3175D06B
PS> PS>trying to be a nice guy about this.
PS> MB> Thanks, Me I just want to have some good conversation.
PS>You may be in luck yet.
I hope so.
PS> PS>Perhaps, but I rather like my answer. Sure, it doesn't provide comfort
o
PS> PS>inspire faith, but it's the truth as far as we know.
PS> MB> Inspired faith is not allways an easy comfort to have, but it is
PS> MB> allways a good comfort to have. The Lord never promised to make
it easy
PS>I wonder. As I've seen it, religious faith of a large dimension is most
PS>often used by people who without it would be mostly helpless in the face
PS>of life's adversities. The truly strong seem to have no need of it in
PS>large quantities.
Well that is hard to anser. How ever the only thing I can realy say
about it is that the Lord said that you must deine your self and take up
your cross and follow him.
PS> MB> but he did promise that He would be their for us in the end. I'm
not
PS>He wasn't there for me.
I can not say how it was for you as I do not no what happend, but are
you sure that in your hart you were there for Him.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E--
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: John Steinson
|Sub: "No True Christian...
|Date: 17 Apr 96 16:08:15
EID:2c3f 20918100
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31764e0f
REPLY: 1:275/153 00046a0e
JG>You are absolutely correct !
JG>Now which power would you choose ? The power of faith that helps you
JG>win the victory.
JG>Or the power of delusion which hides the path of victory from you ?
JG>May you see the TRUTH of the spirit of God which will lead you to
JG>eternal life.
JS> Another true god has been noticed.
JS> Which true god do you refer to?
Oh, he must mean me: The One True God .
See, that's because I have "Proof" , which is predicated
on a time-honored technology called "Circular Reasoning".
... Cannibalism: see Eucharist (from Diderot's Encyclopedia)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 16:12:02
EID:6b94 20918180
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31764e10
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 65687f42
JH> On Apr 14 22:02 96, John Steinson of 1:275/153 wrote:
JS> The Institute for Atheistic Research Foundation (IFART)
JH> Cute. But what does the T in IFART stand for?
Tion.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: article from local paper
|Date: 18 Apr 96 08:55:58
EID:453e 209246e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:3828/1.0 31764e1f
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3174eaa2
Rs> ALBANY [that's Oregon] -- A manslaughter trial began Monday
Rs> for a Brownsville couple whose son died of leukemia after
Rs> they refused, for religious reasons, to allow him to have
Rs> medical treatment.
Rs> I hope they are convicted and rot in jail.
RS> I'll go that one better. I hope they get about 260 rads of nice
RS> atomic activity and die a lingering slow death. I'm no doctor, but
I
RS> can imagine what the untreated symptoms of leukemia must be like, what
RS> the suffering of that small child must have entailed. I guess that's
RS> what puts me ahead of such Xtians . . . the ability to understand the
RS> suffering of others. Deluded fools.
Must be a quaint little cult that trains you to say the
words, "Kill my child quickly, Lord!" in your prayers.
Isn't that supposed to be more like what fundies say the
Satanists do?
... Send lawyers, guns and money...the shit has hit the fan.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:3828/1)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 17 Apr 96 11:11:21
EID:ad7a 20915960
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3175c4af
GM> April 7 Sunday
(Chorus): Give me that real old time religion (3X)
It's good enough for me!
But the True Religion's Science
Where we place our great reliance
'Cause it's laws don't take defiance
So it's good enough for me!
... If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 17 Apr 96 11:21:38
EID:ad7a 20915aa0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3175c4b0
GM> April 8 Monday
(Chorus): Give me that real old time religion (3X)
It's good enough for me!
We will go and worship Jesus
Yes we will, when Hades freezes
He is full of guilt and fleases
Which ain't good enough for me!
... Once you have pulled the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 17 Apr 96 11:24:04
EID:ad7a 20915b00
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3175c4b1
GM> April 11 Thursday
(Chorus): Give me that real old time religion (3X)
It's good enough for me!
Are you waiting for the Rapture?
Superstition's got you captured!
You believe a lot of crap, sure
Isn't good enough for me!
... Don't take life too seriously. After all, it's not permanent.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 17 Apr 96 11:27:54
EID:ad7a 20915b60
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3175c4ae
GM> April 6 Saturday
(Chorus): Give me that real old time religion,
Give me that real old time religion,
Give me that real old time religion,
It's good enough for me!
Lots of folks are into God
And I've often thought it odd
Do they love Him for His bod'?
Or is it ideology?
... Yes, I know I'm off-topic. Thank you for your concern.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE DROOL GAME
|Date: 17 Apr 96 12:48:46
EID:70a5 20916600
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3175c4b2
REPLY: 1:116/19 031BAC30
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> Besides, there is the very real fact that I have noticed fewer
SA> people willing to discuss some topics with him (me included). It
SA> is just too hard to discuss something civilly with a brick wall.
AS> Maybe it's just me or my Christian bias, but I don't see that at
AS> all; he has shown himself well-read on Christianity pro and con,
AS> having read more of Spong than I, and Burton Mack, etc. Yes, he is
AS> opinionated. Well, and David Worrell, Marilyn Burge, et al AREN'T???
However, those individuals that you mentioned will at least appear
to give consideration to alternate views if there is a well reasoned
argument presented on a topic that they are in the process of discussing.
This may take the form of picking an argument apart, but at least you get
the sense that they saw what was written. Michael, on the other hand,
has been tending to argue by the method of shouting "is not" louder and
louder, without even doing much to attempt to pick apart the argument in
question. For example, in a recent discussion I had with him, I was
trying to discuss the possibility that the death and ressurection of
Jesus was an elaborate hoax. Michael kept saying how unreasonable that
was, how difficult that was, and how much of an EVENT (his term) the
ressurection was, without really arguing substancially against the points
that I was trying to bring up in support of this possibility. His strong
belief of the ressurection (IMO) appeared to keep him from seeing the
possibility that I was trying to get him to think about. I was not even
trying to get him to change his belief on this...just realize that there
may be alternate ways that individuals could see this story.
And yes, I do agree that there are other "brick walls" here.
Sue
... "Captain, engines here. Scotty can't take much more of this!"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Kevin D. McKenzie
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Defining death
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:17:00
EID:ee0d 208c9220
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 100
* Origin: TRAVEL ONLINE / ST. LOUIS ONLINE - (314) 561-4956 (1:100/635)
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|From: Kevin D. McKenzie
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:28:00
EID:f9a0 208c9380
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 100
* Origin: TRAVEL ONLINE / ST. LOUIS ONLINE - (314) 561-4956 (1:100/635)
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|From: Kevin D. McKenzie
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: Mind control
|Date: 12 Apr 96 18:40:00
EID:2793 208c9500
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 100
* Origin: TRAVEL ONLINE / ST. LOUIS ONLINE - (314) 561-4956 (1:100/635)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: CompuServe Targeted by 'Christians'
|Date: 18 Apr 96 14:51:27
EID:d04b 20927660
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1769a735
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Matthew Gaylor (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 18 '96, 14:47
age-Id:
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Copyrighted material sent with permission of Web Review Magazine
http://gnn.com/wr/
Regards, Matt-
###
Christian Group Targets CompuServe
By Stephen Pizzo
April 17, WASHINGTON -- A pro-family group here
has asked Attorney General Janet Reno to
investigate CompuServe for violating the
Communications Decency Act. It is the first
known request for prosecution under the new law
which is currently facing a court challenge.
Patrick Trueman, director of governmental
affairs for the Washington-based American
=46amily Association wrote Reno earlier this
month requesting that the DOJ open an
investigation of CompuServe "for potential
violations of the Communications Decency Act"
because, the letter said, CompuServe "is
offering pornography and other sexually
oriented material on its on-line service to its
users, including children."
Trueman headed the DOJ's office of Child
Exploitation and Obscenity under the Reagan and
Bush administrations. Last year the AFA sparked
a DOJ investigation into Calvin Klein over
television ads that depicted what appeared to
be underaged adolescents partially undressed
and in sexually suggestive poses. The DOJ
inquiry was dropped after it was determined
that the models were all over 18 years of age.
The AFA identifies itself on its Web site as "a
Christian ministry, based in Tupelo,
Mississippi." The focus of Trueman's ire this
time is a site CompuServe unveiled on March 29
called the MacGlamour Forum. The site provides
adult-oriented graphics, videos, and discussion
groups.
"This is exactly the kind of case the Justice
Department should want to prosecute," said
Trueman. "CompuServe will say that they offer
their parental controls but they put this site
up before parents knew it was going up and
thousands of kids logged on that day."
Since the CDA emerged from Congress as "a very
weak bill," Trueman said, the DOJ needs to take
on clear-cut cases like the CompuServe's
MacGlamour site in order to "scare other online
providers" into restricting indecent material
online that could be accessed by children.
CompuServe denies the MacGlamour site violates
the CDA. "First of all we have not violated the
law," said Daphney Kent, a CompuServe
spokesperson. "In its letter to Ms. Reno, the
AFA kept using the term 'pornography' and we do
not provide pornographic content on CompuServe.
We do provide adult content on our service and
we provide state-of-the-art tools for parents
to block such content."
Kent also noted that the fact that parents were
not warned the MacGlamour site was going up is
not a valid criticism. "We added the site to
our parental blocking list before we put it
up," said Kent. "Any account that had already
selected parental blocking would not have had
access to that site even on the first day."
But Trueman is unswayed. He said CompuServe's
parental controls are not enough. "We have no
control over adults who want to access indecent
materials," said Trueman, "but they should have
to phone CompuServe and prove that they are an
adult at which time they could be given a
password to access the adult site."
CompuServe's chief spokesman, William Giles,
said there are no plans to change the service's
current policy. "We continue to believe that
the best person to decide what children should
or should not have access to are their
parents," said Giles. "We don't want to be put
in the position of deciding what your kids can
and can't see on our service. That's the
parent's responsibility."
Giles said that if CompuServe's parental
controls are not strong enough protection for
some parents they can choose the company's new
"Wow!" service that defaults to a child's menu
of services unless an adult password is
entered.
Trueman responded that, even if a one household
employs CompuServe's parental controls their
neighbor may not be as careful and kids could
get their porn next door instead.
So far CompuServe has not heard from the DOJ.
"We have not been contacted by the Justice
Department and don't expect to be," said Kent.
The DOJ has a policy of not commenting on
requests like the AFA's but for now it may be a
moot matter. The DOJ said it would not
prosecute any CDA-related cases until the
courts decide if the law is constitutional.
But Trueman warned that the DOJ's self-imposed
moratorium on CDA prosecutions is not the same
thing as a grace period. "The law is
enforceable now," said Trueman. "Just because
DOJ has agreed not to investigate or prosecute
CDA violations today does not mean they cannot
go back after the law is upheld and investigate
cases like this one."
Trueman said his group was also worried about
verbal pornography on the Net. But a visit to
Trueman's AFA site contains a link to a page
that graphically lists "homosexual sexual
practices." Trueman said the AFA list is not
the same as an online pornographic discussion.
"We are explaining, not advocating that people
actually perform these sexual practices and
acts," said Trueman.
Copyright =A9 Songline Studios, Inc., 1996.
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
****************************************************************************
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Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229
****************************************************************************
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Thanks
|Date: 14 Apr 96 11:32:01
EID:6b26 208e5c00
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 348b1d69
REPLY: 1:124/9005 316ff9ea
>SA> for giving Boy George the grand heave-ho.
> Boy George? Did "Our Daily Bread" finally get moldy?
Well, I suppose that I could have pounded him into toast
with a culture club...
It's butter this whey.
---
* Origin: Do Quakers prefer Holland Oats? (1:152/20)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Waco Anniversary: Background
|Date: 18 Apr 96 11:09:16
EID:abbd 20925920
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 17660b29
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Matthew Gaylor (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 18 '96, 11:05
age-Id:
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
From: Carol Moore
Subject: Waco Anniversary: FBI Killed A Village
From: Carol Moore in D.C.
cmoore@capaccess.org or cmoore@upx.net
---------------------------------------
COMMITTEE FOR WACO JUSTICE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Carol Moore 202/635-3739
Alan Forschler 202/797-9877
COMMITTEE'S APRIL 18 AND 19 MEMORIALS TO REMIND PUBLIC
"FBI KILLED A VILLAGE AND ITS CHILDREN"
Washington, D.C.--The Committee for Waco Justice will sponsor two
memorials to the 24 men, 35 women and 23 children who died as a result of
federal actions against the Branch Davidian religious community outside
of Waco, Texas on February 28 and April 19, 1993. Members have chosen
the theme "FBI KILLED A VILLAGE AND ITS CHILDREN" to remind the public
that the Davidians were a multi-racial, multi-national community with a
long history of cooperation with their neighbors and the larger
community. Attached is a list of those who died, as well as their race
and nationality.
** APRIL 18 ERECTION OF CROSSES AT THE ELLIPSE--Noon-5:00 P.M.
At the Ellipse directly south of the White House, members will erect
82 crosses, display a banner reading "FBI KILLED A VILLAGE AND ITS
CHILDREN," and fly the Davidian flag.
** APRIL 19 PRESS CONFERENCE AT FBI HEADQUARTERS AT NOON
Members will display the above-mentioned banner and flag. Speakers
will include:
* Committee member Andrew Williams, who will connect the government's
destruction of the Davidian community to the scapegoating of drug users,
gun owners and cults.
* Committee member Carol Moore, author of the mass market paperback
The Davidian Massacre, who will describe evidence of government crimes,
like ATF's murder of Davidians from helicopter gunfire, the FBI's
deliberate sabotage of negotiations, FBI lies to Attorney General Janet
Reno and the criminally conceived and executed gas and tank attack that
led to the fire that killed 76 Davidians. The book is published by Gun
Owners Foundation, whose director Larry Pratt recently was falsely
accused of bigotry.
* Alan Forschler, a member of the Fully Informed Jury Association, who
will speak about the injustice done the eight Davidian prisoners during
their trial and issues relevant to their appeals.
* Gene A. Cisewski (sha SEV ski), National Coordinator of the
Libertarian Party Council of State Chairs, who will speak about
government excesses in federal law enforcement.
* William Thomas, a member of the D.C. peace group Proposition One,
who will speak about a peace activist's views on Waco and the Terrorism
bill.
During both events, members will observe moments of silence for the
Davidian victims and prisoners and for the 168 victims of the criminal
April 19, 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, widely believed to be the result of
anger over the federal massacre of the Davidians.
The Committee for Waco Justice approves of the F.B.I.'s tactful
handling of the Freeman standoff in Montana. Nevertheless, members
demand prosecution of all BATF and FBI agents and officials responsible
for the deaths of 82 Davidians. And members demand immediate pardons and
freedom for the eight remaining Branch Davidian prisoners.
BRANCH DAVIDIAN VICTIMS
Died February 28, 1993
Winston Blake, 28, black, British
Peter Gent, 24, white, Australian
Peter Hipsman, 28, white, American
Perry Jones, 64, white, American
Michael Schroeder, 29, white, American
Jaydean Wendell, 34, Hawaiian, American
Died April 19, 1993
Katherine Andrade, 24, white, American
Chanel Andrade, 1, white, American
Jennifer Andrade, 19, white, American
George Bennett, 35, black, British
Susan Benta, 31, black, British
Mary Jean Borst, 49, white, American
Pablo Cohen, 38, white, Israeli
Abedowalo Davies, 30, black, British
Shari Doyle, 18, white, American
Beverly Elliot, 30, black, British
Yvette Fagan, 32, black, British
Doris Fagan, 51, black, British
Lisa Marie Farris, 24, white, American
Raymond Friesen, 76, white, Canadian
Sandra Hardial, 27, black, British
Zilla Henry, 55, black, British
Vanessa Henry, 19, black, British
Phillip Henry, 22, black, British
Paulina Henry, 24, black, British
Stephen Henry, 26, black, British
Diana Henry, 28, black, British
Novellette Hipsman, 36, black, Canadian
Floyd Houtman, 61, black, American
Sherri Jewell, 43, Asian, American
David M. Jones, 38, white, American
David Koresh, 33, white, American
Rachel Koresh, 24, white, American
Cyrus Koresh, 8, white, American
Star Koresh, 6, white, American
Bobbie Lane Koresh, 2, white, American
Jeffery Little, 32, white, American
Nicole Gent Little, 24, white, Australian
and unborn child
Dayland Gent, 3, white, American
Page Gent, 1, white, American
Livingston Malcolm, 26, black, British
Diane Martin, 41, black, British
Wayne Martin, Sr., 42, black, American
Lisa Martin, 13, black, American
Sheila Martin, Jr., 15, black, American
Anita Martin, 18, black, American
Wayne Martin, Jr., 20, black, American
Julliete Martinez, 30, Mexican American
Crystal Martinez, 3, Mexican American
Isaiah Martinez, 4, Mexican American
Joseph Martinez, 8, Mexican American
Abigail Martinez, 11, Mexican American
Audrey Martinez, 13, Mexican American
John-Mark McBean, 27, black, British
Bernadette Monbelly, 31, black, British
Rosemary Morrison, 29, black, British
Melissa Morrison, 6, black, British
Sonia Murray, 29, black, American
Theresa Nobrega, 48, black, British
James Riddle, 32, white, American
Rebecca Saipaia, 24, Asian, Phillipino
Steve Schneider, 43, white, American
Judy Schneider, 41, white, American
Mayanah Schneider, 2, white, American
Clifford Sellors, 33, white, British
Scott Kojiro Sonobe, 35, Asian, American
Floracita Sonobe, 34, Asian, Phillipino
Gregory Summers, 28, white, American
Aisha Gyrfas Summers, 17, white, Australian
and unborn child
Startle Summers, 1, white, American
Lorraine Sylvia, 40, white, American
Rachel Sylvia, 12, white, American
Hollywood Sylvia, 1, white, American
Michelle Jones Thibodeau, 18, white, American
Serenity Jones, 4, white, American
Chica Jones, 2, white, American
Little One Jones, 2, white, American
Neal Vaega, 38, Somoan, New Zealander
Margarida Vaega, 47, Asian, New Zealander
Mark H. Wendell, 40, Asian, American
Prisoners
Renos Avraam, 32, white, British (40 years)
Brad Branch, 37, white American (40 years)
Jaime Castillo, 27, white, American (40 years)
Graeme Craddock, 35, white, Australian (20 years)
Livingstone Fagan, 36, black, British (40 years)
Paul Fatta, 38, white, American (15 years)
Ruth Riddle, 32, white, Canadian (5 years)
Kevin Whitecliff, 34, white, American (40 years)
Distributed by Committee for Waco Justice 202/635-3739
End Message
****************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229
****************************************************************************
___
--- timEd 1.00+
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SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
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SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: US Censorship Law
|Date: 18 Apr 96 12:58:48
EID:9229 20926740
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 176824b9
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Matthew Gaylor (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 18 '96, 12:43
age-Id:
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
From: Keith A. Glass
Friends of Free Speech on the Net:
On June 30th, 1996, a large anti-CDA rally, the Electronic Freedom March,
is planned for the Ellipse, in front of the White House. But without your
help, it won't happen.
We need volunteers to help us plan the EFM and the logistics required for
it, people to help us raise funds to pay the expenses (the Park Service
has required us to provide 80 porta-potties, at a cost of nearly $4500.00
alone, and that's not our only requirement. . .), and people to help us
run the March on June 30th. Not to mention publicity, etc.
We need your help. **I** need your help. I've posted this to the DC area
groups, as well as to a few groups that I feel might be useful in
gathering more volunteers and interested people. But I need your
committment to help NOW, or we won't be able to run the EFM, or as it's
been called, the "Million Geek March". Come on, out there: help us out!!!
--
* Keith A. Glass, Annandale, Virginia, USA, Filker/punster at large
*
* Washington Coordinator, Electronic Freedom March
*
* 30 June 1996, Washington DC URL: http://www.efm.org
*
* Note: the following line is an intentional act of Civil Disobedience:
*
* FUCK THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT--DEFEND THE FIRST AMENDMENT !
*
****************************************************************************
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Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229
****************************************************************************
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: L&J: Waco , Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7 Num. 66 (fwd)
|Date: 18 Apr 96 13:33:01
EID:0e78 20926c20
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 176824ea
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from James Hayman (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Apr 17 '96, 16:22
nadu.io.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA21901; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:22:51 -0500
From: James Hayman
To: Sandra Schappert
Subject: L&J: Waco , Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7 Num. 66 (fwd)
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:15:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: pwatson@utdallas.edu
To: restore our constitution ,
Liberty-and-Justice
Subject: L&J: Waco , Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7 Num. 66 (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:28:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brian Redman
To: Conspiracy Nation
Subject: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7 Num. 66
The following is brought to you thanks, in part, to the kind
assistance of CyberNews and the fine folks at Cornell University.
Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7 Num. 66
======================================
("Quid coniuratio est?")
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Waco + 3 Years: You Might Not Know
===================================
** Janet Reno claimed to be concerned about the children at Mount
Carmel. Yet during the siege the FBI, supposedly under control
of the Justice Department, blasted the Branch Davidians "with
ear-shattering noise and aimed powerful electric spotlights into
their windows at night to prevent them from sleeping, and turned
off the community's water supply and cut off its sewers."
[Bradford, 21]
** David Koresh had never been convicted of any crime.
[Wattenberg, 32]
** Giving his opinion on the Branch Davidians, McLennan County
[Texas] Sheriff Jack Harwell stated, "They had their property
line, and they were basically good people. All of 'em were good
people." [ibid.]
** Machine guns are not unconditionally outlawed in the United
States. [ibid.]
** The type of search warrant used by BATF was not a so-called
"no knock" warrant. "Though the search warrant issued for the
February 28 action did not authorize a 'no knock' raid, [the
BATF] had practiced only a forcible entry." [Reavis, 139]
** One of the Branch Davidians, Jaydean Wendell, had been a
police officer in Hawaii before she came to Mount Carmel. While
others of the women -- for example the aged Victorine
Hollingsworth -- "bent low over the children... trying to protect
them [from flying bullets]... Wendell grabbed a rifle... went
into her room, climbed atop a bunk bed, and while lying there,
apparently exchanged shots with the raiders in front of Mt.
Carmel." [ibid., 166]
** Among the Branch Davidians were a Harvard-trained attorney
(Wayne Martin), an electrical engineer who had, until 1992,
taught physics in an Australian high school (Graeme Craddock),
and two nurses. [Reavis]
** Charges against the Branch Davidians of child abuse "were
repeatedly shown to be false." [Reavis, 229]
** BATF tank drivers who circled the compound during the siege,
"mooned the residents and made obscene hand signs." [Reavis,
249]
** Most of the guns at the Davidian compound were purchased as
investments and had never been used. The "armaments that Koresh
and [Paul] Fatta owned had more than doubled in value since the
date of their purchase." [Reavis, 293-294] In point of fact, the
"Davidians had a profitable legal gun business." [Moore, 47]
** It is not, per se, illegal to "stockpile weapons." Texas
Rangers "recovered about 200 guns from the ashes of the Mount
Carmel Center, roughly two per resident. Statewide in Texas, 17
million people own 60 million guns, or about four per resident."
[Wattenberg, 32]
** "The massacre of the Branch Davidians was the greatest
government massacre of civilians on American soil since the
massacre of 300 Native Americans at Wounded Knee in 1890."
[Moore, 4]
** "I thought I was going to die that day [Feb. 28]. I thought I
was going to get blown away... Put in that situation where
you've got women and children crying and screaming, 'Oh, my God,
please help us, save us, do something! They're shooting at us!
'...You do anything, you pick up anything you can, if your life
is threatened, to defend yourself." -- Kevin Whitecliff before
sentencing. [qtd. in Moore, 141]
** "I don't care who they are, nobody is going to come to my
home, with my babies around, shaking guns around, without a gun
back in their face. That's just the American way." -- David
Koresh [qtd. in Moore, 167-168]
** With all the gunfire, "it is inevitable that BATF agents
injured, and even killed, some of their own." [Moore, 171]
According to Newsweek magazine, a federal source in Waco stated
"there is evidence that supports the theory of friendly fire."
[qtd. in Moore, 171]
** "The FBI strictly controlled its daily press briefings,
limiting the number of questions and punishing reporters who
displeased them by refusing to call on them." According to Time
magazine photographer Shelly Katz, it was the worst suppression
of the press he had seen in 27 years of journalism. [Moore,
235-236]
** "I recognized early on that the government was systematically
poisoning and prejudicing public opinion with a blitz of
inflammatory disinformation to stir up hatred against David
Koresh and to foment a thirst for his blood... " Former Black
Panther Eldridge Cleaver [qtd. in Moore, 238]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Works cited
-----------
Bradford, R.W. "Mass Murder, American-Style". *Liberty*
[magazine], June 1993
Moore, Carol. *The Davidian Massacre* (Best is to order directly
from Moore; phone (202) 986-1847 for more info; or order from Gun
Owners of America.)
Reavis, Dick J. *The Ashes Of Waco*. New York: Simon &
Schuster, 1995. ISBN: 0-648-81132-4
Wattenberg, Daniel. "Gunning for Koresh". *The American
Spectator* [magazine], August 1993
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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et
pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9
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Unsub info - send to majordomo@pobox.com with "unsubscribe liberty-and-justice"
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___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Selena Kerr
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 17 Apr 96 21:48:05
EID:df1c 2091ae00
PID: Telegard 2.99.g4 [ml]
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3171b48e
MSGID: 1:252/107 31756715
TID: GE 1.11+
`07-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Selena Kerr <=-`03`03
PS> Don, if you haven't heard already, isn't a Christian.
SK> completely.. and i am sick of them thinking that they are the best and
PS> Not all of them think that way. Many do, but not all.
SK> only religion.. get off your high horse. I don't care if i deserve
SK> it. If i give them back a fraction of the hell that they gave me I
SK> will be happy. Wrath.
PS> "An eye for an eye leaves the world blind."
I know Don is not a christian.. i was not referring to him.. just the general
way everone lashes out here... pathetic.
i am violent in thought only.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
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|From: Selena Kerr
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 17 Apr 96 21:49:36
EID:6d80 2091ae20
PID: Telegard 2.99.g4 [ml]
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1eeaf7ae
MSGID: 1:252/107 31756770
TID: GE 1.11+
`07-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Selena Kerr <=-`03`03
KW> Selena, you've run into a running joke here. Several of
KW> the
KW> women on this conference have been threatening to serve David with an
KW> x-lax, ect spiked chocolate cream pie. He swears that he will not
KW> eat
KW> anything that comes out of our kitchens. A bit ago I threatened
KW> David
KW> with an agent who would charm him into eating the pie. Then, right
KW> on
KW> schedule, your post showed up....
KW> Do you bake?
I know.. I found out aboutthat after I already made that reply.. hehe..
nope.. never baked a pie in my life!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Bill Arnold
|Sub: Re: Holocaust Hoax
|Date: 16 Apr 96 21:40:08
EID:9bd7 2090ad00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 3615b5dc
BA> There is one survey of the Jewish question in Europe during
BA> World War Two and the conditions of Germany's concentration
BA> camps which is almost unique in its honesty and objectivity, the
BA> three-volume Report of the International Committee of the Red
BA> Cross on its Activities during the Second World War, Geneva,
BA> 1948. This comprehensive account from an entirely neutral
BA> source incorporated and expanded the findings of two previous
BA> works: Documents sur l'activite' du CICR en faveur des civils
BA> detenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne 1939-1945
BA> (Geneva, 1946), and Inter Arma Caritas: the Work of the ICRC
BA> during the Second World War (Geneva, 1947). the team of authors,
BA> headed by Frederic Siordet, explained in the opening pages of
BA> the Report that their object, in the tradition of the Red Cross,
BA> has been strict political neutrality, and herein lies its great
BA> value.
How many Black folks worked for the Red Cross during that period? How many
Native Americans? How many Chinese? The answer, damn near, none. So what
would make anyone think that they were an unbiased source of information?
The Red Cross also stated that the Japanese War Prisoners were well looked
after--case closed!
BA> The Red Cross Report is of value in that it first clarifies
BA> the legitimate circumstances under which Jews were detained in
BA> concentration camps, i.e. as enemy aliens. In describing the two
BA> categories of civilian internees, the Report distinguishes the
BA> second type as "Civilians deported on administrative grounds (in
BA> German, "Schutzhaftline"), who were arrested for political or
BA> racial motives because their presence was considered a danger to
BA> the State or the occupation forces" (Vol. III, p. 73). These
BA> persons, it continues, "were placed on the same footing as
BA> persons arrested or imprisoned under common law for security
BA> reasons" (p.74).
Since when would it be considered "reasonable" to detain *any* person just
because they are of a certain ethnic or religious background? Last time
I heard, this was called, "institutionalized racism". Right away, you have
*proved* that the Red Cross saw only what they wanted to see...
BA> thanks for which came pouring in from Jewish internees.
BA> One of the most important aspects of the Red Cross Report is
BA> that it clarifies the true cause of those deaths that
BA> undoubtedly occurred in the camps toward the end of the war.
BA> Says the Report: "In the chaotic condition of Germany after the
BA> invasion during final months of the war, the camps received no
BA> food supplies at all and starvation claimed an increasing number
BA> of victims. Itself alarmed by this situation, the German
The only time that 6 million people died of starvation, or anywhere near
that
number, anywhere in the world was when Stalin deliberatly starved out the
Siberians. Did the Red Cross say that was accidental, too?
BA> t(Vol. I, p. 204 ff). Incidentally, it is frequently
BA> claimed that mass executions were carried out in gas chambers
BA> cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes
BA> nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but
BA> installations for baths, showers and laundry were inspected by
BA> the delegates. They had often to take action to have fixtures
BA> made less primitive, and to get them repaired and enlarged"
Gee, too bad people like my father SAW those fake shower heads after the
war,
eh? Blows idiotic statements like this right out of the water!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Quote: ROTFL!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 23:37:36
EID:5259 2091bca0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 37006ff7
FR> >>DR> Talk about FUNNY: get a load of this shit---
FR> >>>BJ> Hello Sean. You sound like a very learned man, and yet
FR> >>>BJ> you still don't believe in Jesus Christ.
FR>
dr> "Hello Sean. You sounds like a very safe, sane man, and
dr> yet you still don't blast your brains out with a shotgun."
FR>
FR> "Hi, Sean. You sound like a very learned man and
FR> yet you still don't rape alter boys and hate blacks."
Hello Sean, You sound like a very learned man and you don't think women
are
baby machines and that you have the right to tell them to be subservient
to
you...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Re: Waco rememberance
|Date: 16 Apr 96 21:28:59
EID:ae97 2090ab80
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 3615b5db
TL> Regardless of who's responsible for the kids being there, govt was NOT
TL> justified in running tanks thru the kid occupied residence.
I must agree with this. This was a "hostage" situation and required the
same
sort of negotiation and stalling tactics.
There was *no* justification for such war-like action. It is Mai Lai in
another era...
TL> Some of the children we were 'saving' DIED this way.
This, to me, is the essential point...just who were the FBI *saving*?
What happened to "Serve and Protect"?
TL> KDM> The fact that they'd waited 51 days would do it. Pampering
TL> KDM> nuts only provides encouragement for other nuts.
TL> TL>
TL> TL>And do you REALLY think this justifies driving TANKS thru a residence
TL> TL>occupied by men, women and children?
I wonder, does driving a tank through a wall full of families qualify as
"Nuts" if *I* do it?
TL> KDM> Those men and women were felons, remember? Murder or accessories
TL> KDM> to murder.
TL>
TL> Not all of them, 'remember?' How does that justify running armoured
vehicl
TL> thru a wall with kids on the other side of¦|zÅÈú“•¡+-ª)'œL‹/ö that
Sorry, NASTY line noise!
In the first place, I'm not sure the DEA wasn't indulging in "strong arm"
tactics. The FBI leaped right in there without a full investigation of
the
previous circumstances and *assumed* that the Davidians were *all* dangerous.
Sorry, but in my estimation you cannot raze a whole village because you
*suspect* some collaborators or the "enemy" are hiding in it. Has the FBI
heard of the Geneva Convention?
Jim Jones murdered his followers by himself. David Koresh had the help
of the
FBI...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:07:45
EID:3d43 2091b0e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 657f9d05
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A602EE
AS> Okay, Marty, I hereby elevate you to the ranks of God Dan and
AS> others. You now have omnipotence.
AS> Now, make me a square circle.
AS> Take your time.
Nonsense. I'm not perfect. Elevate me if you like, but I still don;t know
how to do it. The perfect god should though.
Why is a square cirlce any different from a worldwide flood?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:18:35
EID:3d43 2091b240
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 657fb799
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A6104A
AS> Okay. I will get it for you within two weeks' time, if not
AS> before. (I'm writing this on Saturday the 13th). I should
AS> have go to the library, at the latest, by the 27th.)
There is no rush as I have a plenty to do as it is. Now tht the boys are
starting to play baseball we're going to be out every night.
I did get to your web site though and read through it. No pic ad not net
address to send nasty comments to....
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:21:01
EID:20e4 2091b2a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 657fbd3e
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A649E8
AS> (Grinding my teeth while saying this.) Well, I can't PROVE he's
AS> not. He certainly thinks he is doing God's work. But I can't
AS> say he's not a "real, true Christian". A lot of "real true
AS> Christians" led pogroms against the Jews. Torquemada was a
AS> "real, true Christian" in that sense. There is enough doubt
Such is my point. Someone else might quote scripture to show why you are
not a true Christian. It's all opinion. It would be difficult to meet all
the criteria in the bible to convince everyone.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:24:21
EID:2004 2091b300
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 657fc759
REPLY: 1:116/19 04A6560E
MG>> 1. I have evidence of wood. I have pictures of trees. I
MG>> have a video of wood being cut into lumber. I see lumber
MG>> for sale at the local hardware store.
MG>> 2. I have evidence of wood. Wood was put here for us to
MG>> use, therefore it must have been created by an intelligent
MG>> designer.
AS> (Not the most fortunate analogy you could have made, for your
AS> side of the argument, Marty. But I liked it.)
The point is, that there is physical evidence of the wood and none for any
"reason" that it might be here other than guesswork. Such is the nature
of evidence. It is not guesswork. we don't claim that "it's unlikely tht
the universe formed by itself without a designer. We have no solid evidence
to say that.
All I can say for the Anthropic Principle is "Why would two airplanes have
a midair collision?"
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: [INSERT DRIVEL HERE]
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:28:42
EID:0482 2091b380
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 657fd8e2
>>DH> I realise that not everybody can swallow that, but I feel
>>DH> that it is possible, and further, it is what I believe.
>>DH> Dennis Hall
>> This is not evidence for god. This is something that you
>> decided was evidence. Could Jesus have existed without a
>> god. Sure he
DH> I'm not sure, but I think that you asked me why I believed, and I
DH> answered that question accurately.
Yet the original, some weeks ago asked for evidence. This was a statement
of faith, which, when evidence is asked for, is usually what I get.
>> 1. Major Errors in the bible.
>> 2. The need of god to test us.
>> 3. The existance of many different gods.
>> 4. The general lack of perfection in the universe.
>> 5. The once god explained and now naturally explained
>> phenomenae. 6. Deeds of retribution and vengence attributed
>> to god and humans
>> joy over it.
>> 7. God's need for thanks.
>> 8. Suffering of people who do not deserve it.
DH> REASONS THAT THOSE ARE OLD TIRED ARGUMENTS.
DH> 1. Major truths/undeniable realities in the bible.
When there are both "truths" and "lies" in the bible, who gets to set out
which is which?
DH> 2. You have made an assumption concerning God's motivation for
No assumption needed. I am told constantly by people ont his echo that
we are being tested by god.
DH> testing. 3. A rock could be a god to someone.
Sure it could. But is it? Why is it? Which is a real god, your god or
the rock?
DH> 4. The general abundance of generalizations.
Huh? The universe is an imperfect place, nhot something that looks as if
it was produced by intelligent design.
DH> 5. Weak argument.
Huh? We used to say that little men playing lawn bowls made thunder. What
do we say about it now?
DH> 6. Are you saying that there is a right and a wrong? Where do
Not in any way. I am questioning why god needs his people to carry out
rites of vengeance on their enemies.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: WHAT IS A RELIGION?
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:34:55
EID:5d9b 2091b440
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 657fdbf2
>> I do not need faith in the fact. Facts, by definition, stnd
>> by themselves.
DH> Exactly. If I told anyone in this conference to prove that God
DH> did not exist, they would foam at the mouth and tell me something
DH> to the effect that one cannot prove the "non-existence" of
DH> something. That sounds fair enough to me.
That would be right. But wht has this to do with facts?
DH> Do you believe in anything spiritual/ethereal?
No.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: 1996-04-03 Proclamation
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:36:31
EID:fb33 2091b480
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 657fe235
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895F4388
MH> Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it. People will pray, or not
MH> pray, as they choose. It doesn't matter a whit what the
MH> president says. So long as it's a proclamation -- a PR
MH> gambit, essentially -- and not a law, what's the fuss?
There shouldn't be one EXCEPT that the president should not garner strength
for any one viewpoint where religion is concerned. We don't do it in schools,
we shouldn't let our governemtn oficials do it. Let them worship or not
as they see fit. We need not make a national day out of it.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Evidence...
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:15:00
EID:10ce aa0206f0
MSGID: 1:206/2720 37021b3b
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89624387
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> What little young-earth Creationist literature I've
> read says that
> evidence for the flood is abundant -- the geological
> strata, which they
> say evolutionists and us old-age Creationists wrongly
> (in their
> opinion) take as evidence of billions of years of
> deposition.
True enough. Some time ago, I wrote a short post bringing together the
various information I've found on the subject. I doubt the irony is particularly
worthwhile, but I'm too lazy to rewrite it:
It has come to my attention that not enough people on this echo are familiar
with flood geology. This is a great tragedy, as those unfamiliar with this
amusing field might be misled into believing that the creationists have
no
theories of their own, but rather confine themselves to attacking the theories
of others. The first thing you have to understand is that before the flood,
the world was much more level (low hills and shallow oceans) and covered
with
a canopy of water vapor. It never rained; the canopy kept everything watered.
This enabled 25 billion people to live on Earth at that time, and build
vast
civilizations to somehow not be preserved in the archeological record.
The flood itself is, of course, responsible for the geologic column and
the
fossil record. Never mind that we find sand dunes, river deltas, and dried
up
ponds in the deep layers of the geologic column. Those were all left by
the
flood. Somehow.
The flood also laid down all of the fossils. Coral reefs for example.
We know
how fast coral reefs grow, and coral reefs as large as some of those found
in
the fossil record would take hundreds of thousands of years to form. They
have
exactly the shape of the coral reefs that we see in today's oceans. Obviously,
the flood washed together lots of coral bits and piled them in exactly the
same
way that coral reefs grow today. No other explanation could possibly make
sense; after all, the reefs couldn't have had hundreds of thousands of years
to
form, could they? I mean, this old Earth stuff is just a myth to disprove
God,
there can't be any actual evidence for it.
Another interesting find in the geologic column is that there are an awful
lot of fossils. Some rocks, such as chalk, are essentially 100% fossils.
If we conservatively assume that marine fossils constitute 0.1% of the volume
of rock, resurrecting all the animals thus fossilized would cover the Earth
to a depth of 1.5 feet. I guess the canopy made Earth even more fertile
than one might have thought.
Those who weren't yet amazed at the behavior of the flood are invited to
consider the varves in the Green River Formation. A varve consists of a
shallow layer of light sediment and a shallow layer of dark sediment one
atop
the other. At one point, there are some twenty million varves. Modern
theories of varve formation, based on observation of such formation in
freshwater lakes, suggest that varves form annually. Thus, we can clearly
see
that the Green River Formation cannot contain actual varves. Henry Morris
blames "a complex of shallow turbidity currents." Thus, apparently, 40
million
turbidity currents, alternating between light and dark, covered tens of
thousands of square kilometers each, and each lasted 2/3 of a second. It
would
appear that God was not so economical with miracles as is commonly supposed.
Of course, we have yet to address the issue of the order of the fossils.
Fossils in the geological column display a definite ordering. The two factors
commonly cited by flood geologists to explain this are victim mobility and
hydraulic sorting. Hydraulic sorting theory flatly contradicts the fossil
record. To quote one of my sources (Robert J. Shadewald) directly for a
moment, "An object's hydrodynamic drag is directly proportional to its cross-sectional
area and its drag coefficient. Therefore, when objects with the same density
and the same drag coefficient move through a fluid, they are sorted according
to size. (Mining engineers utilize this phenomena in some ore separation
processes.) This means that all small trilobites should be found higher
in the fossil record than large ones. Since this is not what we find, the
hydraulic sorting argument is immediately falsified."
Thus, we must hold to the victim mobility argument. The flood first engulfed
marine animals, then slow lowland creatures such as reptiles, while wily
and
speedy humans escaped to the hilltops. This of course explains wonderfully
why
flowering plants don't occur in the fossil record until early in the Cretaceous
era. The magnolias headed for the hills when the flood waters came!
Considering all the holes in orthodox geology, such as the inverted fossil
strata, one can hardly see how anyone could deny a theory like flood geology,
which as we've seen explains the data perfectly. Sure, orthodox geologists
have explanations, but even a little examination will show how flimsy they
are.
When asked to explain the inverted strata, they claim that geologic events
overturned the strata after they were formed. When asked for evidence,
they
can only point feebly at folded rocks, and babble about how trilobites are
found belly down in normal strata and belly up in inverted strata, and how
worm-burrows, footprints, raindrop craters, and other circumstantial evidence
are supposed to be able to tell which way was up when the fossils were first
laid down. How anyone could be convinced by such obviously ad hoc reasoning
is
beyond me.
Bibliography:
Weber, Christopher Gregory, "The Fatal Flaws of Flood Geology",
Creation/Evolution I (1980) pp 24-37.
Schadewald, Robert J., "Six 'Flood' Arguments Creationists Can't Answer",
Creation/Evolution IX (1982) pp 12-17.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Robert Pappas
|To: Starwyn
|Sub: test
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:09:00
EID:a5c4 2092a120
MSGID: 1:363/309 57153f02
PID: RA 2.02 8069
* In a message originally to All, Starwyn said:
> Is this getting out? I'd like to order a large pizza please,
> with nothing on it.
how about a slight skoal topping?...
---
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/3] ALLEGORY 1/2
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:27:00
EID:d00e 2091b360
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
MB> It's Michael that has made the faith exclusionary. It is he
MB> who is limiting to a much greater extent that Christ ever
MB> would have.
Yeah, Christianity was a wide-open universalist view for almost 2,000
years, until I came along ....
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 19:12:00
EID:bdd3 20919980
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rick Mcfarlane to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> As an illustration, think of a young man sent to prison for robbing
a
MH> store. While in prison, he enocounters mother-rapers, father-stabbers
MH> and father-rapers,
RM>
RM> Sittin' there next to him on the Group "W" bench?
RM>
Playin' with the pens. ;)
... Cain wasn't Abel, but Eve was Adamant.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 19:34:00
EID:c027 20929c40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348BD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> I can tell you one thing for sure: Mack, in _Who Wrote the New
MB> Testament_ says in the prologue that Theide is whistling past
MB> the graveyard on this one, and he says it is VERY scathing language
MB> of both Theide's language, and his motives.
AS> Sure. Because, of course, that would upset all of MACK'S scholarship
AS> so far, and render his previous papers and books invalid. You see that
AS> sort of thing in any sort of academic endeavor all the time. But the
AS> big question is...does Mack have a real REASON to doubt Theide's
AS> scholarship? Doubtless Theide has motives opposed to that of Mack.
AS> Neither matters. The question is, can Mack produce examples of the
AS> Egyptian writing style that Thiede says was going out of style by the
AS> mid first century. anytime later? THAT's the real question. Scholars
AS> will always have opinions, and theories, and will be disappointed when
AS> their theories are frustrated. That's to be expected. What
AS> matters...and ALL that matters...is the evidence, one way or the
AS> other.
Careful Al ... you're bordering on being "dogmatic." :)
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 19:38:00
EID:0737 20929cc0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348BE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> statistics. Well, suppose I flip a coin ten thousand times and it
AS> lands heads up. There is certainly a chance of this happening,
AS> albeit a small one. But what are the odds of the next flip of the
AS> coin being heads or tails in the next toss, despite the ten thousand
AS> tries before, given an ungimmicked coin?
AS> They are still....fifty-fifty.
MB> No, there is ample evidence that either the coin has heads on both
MB> sides, or it is somehow weighted such that it will always come up
MB> heads. You are imbuing the coin itself with something that is
MB> probably a product of outside interference of some sort.
Like the anthropic principle, which Al and others have repeatedly
argued is evidence that the universe itself has been designed by an
outside interference?
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 19:41:00
EID:8ac7 20929d20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348BF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Al Schroeder <=-
JM> This is not an uncommon device in ancient literature. Look at
JM> the Bible's treatment of Har Megiddo, which was to become
JM> "Armageddon". Six thousand years ago it was a bustling city and
JM> trading centre which had already stood for a thousand years,
JM> but it had been destroyed by the time the O.T. was being
JM> written. By the time "Armageddon" was adopted into Christian
JM> myths as well, the original city's importance was long
JM> forgotten, but the ruins remained as "evidence" that the story
JM> of Armageddon was "true" and to Fundamentalists it's still true
JM> today.
The only reference that I know of to Megiddo is the prophecy in
Revelation that a battle will be fought there. Nothing about cities,
ruins or anything else. And the battle was a prophesied *future* event
that was to happen at the second coming of Christ.
How could existing ruins possibly be taken as evidence of its truth,
when it wasn't said to have happened yet?
... Hester Prynne got an A for adultery. I barely made a C-minus.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 19:46:00
EID:9c71 20929dc0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348C0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
SA> Such as Jericho not existing at the time Joshua destroyed it?
AS> Huh??? I thought Jerico was the oldest city we knew of,
AS> archeologically. Or am I thinking of something else?
DC> Check Asimov's _Guide to the Bible_. The city that Joshua supposedly
DC> destroyed was not there at that time. I don't have a copy here,
DC> but it should be readily available at the library.
Yes, atheistic biochemists make such amazingly accurate Bible scholars.
Dan, archaeology is an ever-progressing study. Why rely on information
that is now 30 years out of date, and was just warmed-over skepticism
when Ike published it, instead of more contemporary material?
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: creation
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:19:00
EID:9a04 2091b260
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Michael Hardy <=-
AS> I must admit I think there is some good reason to think there were at
AS> least two versions of many of the books of the OT...perhaps
AS> distortion that happened in the splitting of the Two Kingdoms and then
AS> recombined during the Exile. The two approaches (even if they can be
AS> reconciled) in Genesis and the creation of the world, etc.
AS> I'm not committed to the JEDP theory; but I do think, for instance,
AS> the two creation stories...one in Genesis 1 and the other one in
AS> Genesis 2...are most easily explained by at least two stories being
AS> combined. Or, more likely, two different versions of the same story
AS> being combined.
My opinion is that the creation story is one narrative, broken into
three main sections.
In Genesis 1:1, God creates the heavens and the Earth. I think this
means that he created the basis for everything in one moment -- which
we know scientifically as the Big Bang and the successive expansion of
the universe over billions of years.
The rest of Genesis 1 assumes that the heavens and the Earth already
exist. It focuses more narrowly on the formation of things on earth.
Light penetrates the translucent atmosphere. Later, the atmosphere
becomes more transparent, revealing the sun and moon. Life forms
appear. The creation ends with the man and woman.
Genesis 2 focuses more narrowly still on the creation of man and woman.
It is not a different creation story at all, but a more detailed
account of one segment of the creation story.
In the same vein, however, it's not a subject worth wasting a great
deal of effort debating. Christianity, in daily practice, is not
concerned about how we got here so much as why, and what we're to do
about it. I regard young-earth Creationists and theistic evolutionists
alike as fellow Christians, even though I have serious disagreements
with both views.
AS> So in the NIV Narrated Bible, they combine all the
AS> Gospel accounts into one continous narrative. Now suppose for some
AS> reason the Narrated Bible is the only one that survives. Scholars
AS> might deduce several different accounts from the style. That doesn't
AS> invalidate the original events if there were several different
AS> accounts that later got combined.
Sure.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 17 Apr 96 20:24:00
EID:86fd 2091a300
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> That's what my "god is an asshole" conversations with Al have
MB> been about. I simply can't see his description of god as being
MB> valid without it raising far more questions than it answers.
MB> Hanging on a cross for a few hours just isn't enough to wipe
MB> out all the other stuff, so far as I'm concerned. In fact,
MB> all it does is make Al's god more confusing to me.
AS> Well...certainly there are Mysteries involved, and really, any God
AS> where I thought, I, a finite mind, could comprehend ALL of His
AS> intentions wouldn't be much of a god. I don't think anyone who really
AS> thinks about it, among believers, thinks they know all of what
AS> happened in the Cross and in the Tomb, and why.
I think Marilyn suffers from a misconception (here I go being dogmatic
again ... ) that the length of time has anything at all to do with it.
Jesus's pain had little to do with his physical suffering. I think the
self-sacrifice comes from being holy and sinless, yet having to bear
the weight of every sin that every Christian would ever commit.
Hanging on the cross, I think Jesus became Jeffrey Dahmer and Al
Schroeder and Coronado and Michael Hardy and John Spong and Dave
Oosterman ... at least in the sense that all our sins became his sins,
so that God could judge them apart from the sinners.
Hanging on the cross for two million years wouldn't be enough, if the
duration of time were the point.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: evil
|Date: 18 Apr 96 19:07:00
EID:6564 209298e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348BB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Michael Hardy <=-
SA> I have a question on this. If there is a free being that does
SA> never commit evil (which you say is logically possible), would this
SA> being still be a "sinner" that would need to be "saved" before being
SA> allowed in to heaven? Why or why not?
MH> I don't think such a person would be a sinner. It is logically
MH> possible to never sin. As a practical matter, though, it seems to be
MH> highly unlikely.
SA> From this (and the material that followed it), may I presume that
SA> you do not believe in the concept of original sin?
It depends on how it's defined. I do not believe that sin is inherited.
I do believe that sin is so pervasive in the world that, as a practical
matter, no one can avoid being drawn into it.
... If I ran the world, things would be a lot better. Well, for me anyway.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: fruity trees
|Date: 17 Apr 96 18:50:00
EID:da79 20919640
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348AF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Michael Hardy <=-
MB> But I digress. My friend's view appears to me to characterize god
MB> as less than an asshole, as it does not appear to me to
MB> characterize him as having condemned billions of people for the
MB> actions of two, as most theologies do. Rather, it appears to me to
MB> give responsibility to A&E themselves for the fact that we must
MB> live in a less-than-perfect world. It also neatly explains the
MB> seemingly contradictory statement "THIS DAY thou wilt sure die,"
MB> because it places the CAPACITY for death in the genetic code of
MB> A&E as a result of their disobedience, implanting death into the
MB> equation at that moment, though death itself was not actually
MB> realized until later when they were older.
MH> Or it could be that the death referred to is spiritual, physical death
MH> just being part of the system. A&E didn't eat of the tree of life, yet
MH> they were told they would die if the ate of the tree of knowledge of
MH> good and evil. Seems like something other than physical death was
MH> meant.
AS> That's an interesting thought--that Adam and Eve might have died
AS> anyway. But then, in terms of the Genesis story, they were told they
AS> could eat of ANY fruit in the garden, which would naturally include
AS> the "tree of life".
Yes, but they were also told they would "die" if they ate of the tree
of knowledge. Yet after they did that, they were barred from eating of
the tree of life, suggesting that it could cause them to live forever
despite God's promise they would die. It seems probable that two
different kinds of death are meant. Can you imagine how much havoc
would be wreaked by sinful beings who never died physically?
Taken as a metaphor, the story suggests that Adam and Eve began as
perfect and sinless, and therefore worthy of eternal life. When they
chose to sin, they became unworthy of eternal life. But the whole story
of the Bible is that God loved humanity so much that did what it took
to make us worthy again, despite our sin.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HELP ME
|Date: 17 Apr 96 20:28:00
EID:c235 2091a380
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
MH> I invite anyone who wishes to show or tell me what I have
MH> done that is offensive. I am seriously trying to evaluate my
MH> behavior and make any necessary changes.
AS> With the exception of the letter to Lynda (which I have
AS> covered elsewhere) I don't think you have a lot to apologize
AS> for, and compared to a LOT of people here, your "smugness"
AS> and "arrogance" is almost negligible. But it is a grand
AS> gesture to make, nonetheless.
MB> You are being too charitable. And, in this case, your charity
MB> will only exacerbate the situation, as it will be used as an
MB> excuse on his part to do nothing to change the way he relates
MB> to others.
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: The Raven
|Sub: help me
|Date: 18 Apr 96 19:09:00
EID:e4e1 20929920
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348BC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting The Raven to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I invite anyone who wishes to show or tell me what I have done that
MH> is offensive. I am seriously trying to evaluate my behavior and make
MH> any necessary changes.
TR> I'll tell you something you probably won't hear to often: when I
TR> restarted my association with this echo, I enjoyed writing to you.
TR> Sure, we are on "opposite sides of the argument", as it were, but you
TR> used intelligent reasoning and gave the other person the benefit of
the
TR> doubt as far as their own reasoning is concerned. In other words, you
TR> were willing to acknowledge that maybe a non-believer put as much
TR> thought and feeling into their own religious decisions as you did
TR> yours. Somewhere along the way, you stopped being willing to
TR> acknowledge this. You spared no pain in pointing out that *you* had
TR> done a lot of thinking, etc., but were unwilling to admit that other
TR> people may have put as much thinking, as much soul-searching, as you
TR> had. To point: you began to trivialize (*NOT* bad-mouth or insult,
TR> but trivialize) the conclusions of others, even when they were as
TR> solidly based as your own. This was your cardinal sin, for me.
OK. In my defense, I believe I did that only in cases where I knew it
to be true. For example, I have read arguments for a liberal view of
the gospels' historicity, and arguments for a conservative view. I have
weighed the two views extensively over the past few years, reading
numerous authors defending each and critiquing each.
Is it then unfair for me to note that someone who accuses me of being
closed-minded on the issue has read only one side, while I have
considered both?
TR> Its the reason I consider Al to be a pal while you I find to be a putz.
TR> He, at least, doesn't make light of my own beliefs, or lack thereof.
That is your decision to make. I am truly sorry that you feel that way,
but I know it is my own fault. I have been going through some serious
changes in my life, and I have had the poor judgment to vent some of my
frustrations on the people in this echo.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: LOSING THE LABELS (1/2)
|Date: 18 Apr 96 19:59:00
EID:be0f 20929f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348C1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Actually, you two remind me of an old married couple, that
AS> get into HORRIBLE fights every few months, only make up a few
AS> days afterwards. (And Marilyn reminds me of the stereotypical
AS> mother-in-law going, I don't know what you ever saw in that
AS> loser, I told you never to go back to him, etc.)
MB> I simply can't stand his brand of dishonesty. He'll say whatever
MB> gets him off the hook at the moment, then turn his back on those
MB> very words in nothing flat (if doing so seems to have momentary
MB> advantage in that new moment).
MB> Fer instance, when the abortion battle was raging in here, I
MB> pointed out to him the insurmountable practical problems with the
MB> "only in cases of rape or incest" approach to the problem.
MB> I went into detail about how crowded the court system was, and how
MB> impossible it would be to establish that a rape had occurred until
MB> long after the window of opportunity had passed for an abortion.
MB> I further pointed out to him how many additional cases would be in
MB> the court system every year, just trying to hash out who had been
MB> falsely accused so that some woman could get an abortion who
MB> wanted one (can you say a million new court cases every year? Can
MB> you say some significant portion of those rape cases ending in
MB> charges being brought against the woman for filing a false police
MB> report? Can you say a million other cases being ignored so these
MB> cases could be "brought to justice?")
MB> He agreed with me that that approach was unworkable on a practical
MB> level, and that, for that reason, he was not advocating that
MB> approach.
MB> It wasn't more than a half-dozen posts later, on the same day,
MB> that he posted to somebody else that he FAVORED the "only in cases
MB> of rape or incest" approach to the problem!
If you're interested ...
What I actually said was that I believed abortion *should* be legal
only in those cases, but that I understood the impracticality of
enforcing such a law.
Marilyn doesn't seem to understand that a person can simultaneously
desire something and understand why it isn't attainable.
... If I ran the world, things would be a lot better. Well, for me anyway.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MARILYN
|Date: 17 Apr 96 18:55:00
EID:c240 209196e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> This is exactly why I'm so flummoxed at being called "dogmatic" and
MH> "fundy." Marilyn has recently accused me of refusing to consider any
MH> point of view that is at odds with my own beliefs; yet I HAVE read
MH> Spong, Mack and others with whom I disagree. And I read them with an
MH> open mind, to see if their arguments would be strong enough to change
MH> my mind. To my knowledge, Marilyn has NOT been willing to read Gregory
MH> Boyd or Michael Wilkins or Luke Johnson. Yet I'm the one accused of
MH> one-sidedness.
AS> Although she said she read a lot of Christian apologetics when she
AS> was younger. Maybe she HAS read the authors you mentioned.
Probably not, as they're all fairly new on the scene. She may have read
some authors who argued along similar lines. The three I mentioned,
though, are in a position to respond directly to the Jesus Seminar and
like-minded scholars.
... This score just in: Deep Space 9, Babylon 5.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: marilyn
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:10:00
EID:c240 2092a140
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348C4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Speaking of manners...I won't quote directly, since I
AS> promised you I wouldn't, but Michael has requested that, if
AS> he is to be twitted, that we refrain from talking about him,
AS> since it is the cybernetic equivelent of talking pointedly
AS> about someone and then ignoring them. I think that a
AS> reasonable request. Your point to Lynda about your mood
AS> swings making communication with Michael impossible is
AS> something I hadn't considered, and if Michael makes you so
AS> mad, that's understandable. But if that's the case, perhaps
AS> we should move on to other things.
MB> Why should I? He's my poster boy of what is wrong with the dogmatic
MB> approach. If anybody is sitting on any fences, he serves a purpose,
MB> whether he likes the purpose he serves or not.
My my my ... I do stick in her craw, don't I? :/
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: marilyn & dogmatism
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:26:00
EID:9fbd 2091b340
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> Yes. I'd very much like to see those who insist that the
MB> Resurrection account are literal fact try to harmonize the various
MB> accounts. It can't be done. I just can't be done. There are some
MB> real troublesome points, even within one account, let alone across
MB> acounts.
Wait, now this is the same woman who in this same mail packet said:
MB> You are conveniently forgetting that I virtually never read any
MB> fiction. Given that, why would I waste my time on a point of view
MB> that is patently fictional in its treatment of the main character?
MB> Conservative apologetics are FULL of assumptions that the
MB> impossible is possible, without a shred of supporting evidence
MB> being needed by the writer. Now, why in the WORLD would I waste my
MB> time on that sort of nonsense? When one of those apologists
MB> decides to offer some actual physical evidence for their belief in
MB> the impossible, let me know, and I'll consider reading him or her.
MB> Until then, don't ask me to waste my time.
So she wants to see it, but she refuses to read it?
Marilyn, if you're reading this (and you probably aren't), I will make
you an offer. I will send you, at my expense, one small book which
summarizes the major points in favor of the conservative view and
against the liberal. If you're as open-minded as you demand others to
be, you will accept this offer. The book I have in mind is short -- not
an exhaustive treatment, but an overview -- and won't take you more
than a couple of hours to read.
All I need is an address to send it to. If you don't want to give me
your address, and if Al or someone else of your choosing will volunteer
to act as a transition point, I will send it to that person and let
that person send it to you.
If you don't want to read it, that is your right. But I think you have
no leg to stand on in criticizing me for (allegedly) not being open to
other views, if you won't read one small book which will cost you
nothing.
LB> For the record, I'm with Al on this one. I still haven't used
LB> the twit feature, and likely never will. The temptation is
LB> there sometimes, but... If I twitted Mike, I wouldn't see
LB> those times when he DOES rise above his dogmatic bent (and he
LB> does, Marilyn -- no matter how angry I am with him, and how
LB> much I may say that he's stopped surprising me, he DOES
LB> surprise me occasionally by trying again).
MB> I have a rather serious mood disorder. I can't afford what he
MB> does to me internally. He simply isn't worth it, so far as I'm
MB> concerned. All he does is make me so angry I can't function in
MB> the real world. My husband depends on me keeping it together so
MB> I can support is; we can't afford having Mikey in our lives. Do
MB> as you must; I do as I must.
That being the case, I'm willing to leave her alone, as I certainly
don't wish to cause that kind of trouble to someone. However, I think
it's fair to ask that she not gripe about me if she isn't able to gripe
*to* me.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MORE BIBLE ERRORS
|Date: 17 Apr 96 18:57:00
EID:9ea4 20919720
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I seriously doubt you've been combing the Bible, counting lists of
MH> names looking for discrepancies. Most likely you got this out of some
MH> tract and didn't bother to check it out.
MH> Embarrassed?
AS> (Applause).
MH> (Polite, self-effacing bow)
AS> Well, now Elliot has come up with a riposte. I'll let you handle
AS> it...but I wonder which translation he is using?
I wonder why anyone thinks the translation matters. I have a
translation (NIV) which reconciles the number of names in the list to
the number cited. He was one (KJV, probably) which doesn't. Proves
nothing.
What matters is what the original Hebrew says. And since Hebrew has no
punctuation, the NIV translators apparently felt it was appropriate to
give the author of Joshua the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, they
rendered cities with similar names occurring one after the other as
references to the same place.
There is some textual support for one of the two instances -- one of
the lists from Joshua is repeated in one of Chronicles, with Sheba
missing. That suggests the translation "Beersheba (or Sheba) ... " is
right.
... To live without passion is to begin to die.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:04:00
EID:11b9 2092a080
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348C2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Michael will have some more for you. BTW, which translation of the
AS> Bible are you consulting?
DC> Thing is, that's the point. The bible gets re-written and
DC> re-interpreted at ever juncture. However, the glaring errors
DC> still seem to crop up.
No, it has little to do with it. What's important is what the Hebrew
says. In this case, the Hebrew is ambiguous, and so various
translations render it different ways. The only thing the translations
tell us in this case is the opinion of the translator as to how it
should read.
What we actually have is an ambiguity in the text. (And a
relatively unimportant text, at that.) Because you are hostile to the
Bible, you insist it is a "glaring error."
... Without the right to life, all other rights mean nothing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:06:00
EID:11b9 2092a0c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348C3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> hotels and such. The New International Version has parentheses where
MH> I indicated in *both* examples.
DC> It's a bug fix, Mikey. Plain and simple. After all, the Hebrews
DC> did not use periods, let alone parentheses.
Gee Dan, wish I'd made that point about punctuation. Wait ... I did! In
fact, that was the point of the whole post!
Are you proud of yourself for having learned to HectorQuote Danny?
... You can write a good country song if you have an ex to grind.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: netmail
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:25:00
EID:31e0 2092a320
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348C7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
Hey,
I sent you a couple of netmails a few days ago. Just wanted to see
if you got them or Fido ate them.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: problems, troubles, woes
|Date: 17 Apr 96 20:39:00
EID:8262 2091a4e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Martin Goldberg <=-
MB> On (14 Apr 96) Martin Goldberg wrote to Michael Hardy...
MG> So, the answer to your question is that in my book, you
MG> hven't done anything tht would (or should) offend anyone.
MG> It's all a bunch of tripe. Apologies are wasted on those with
MG> an agenda. We're all just blips on a screen and mostly we'll
MG> never meet each other.
MG> Which itself is not true. I met Marty Leipzig over this
MG> medium and we have become good friends. But at any rate, I
MG> wouldn't be too upset by anything you read in a conference
MG> devoted to flaming as a debate tool. It's just naot that
MG> important.
MB> You're wrong, Marty. I had grounds for twitting him, or I wouldn't
MB> have done it. As for an agenda, who doesn't have one? It goes with
MB> breathing.
[...]
MB> Now, just what do you perceive MY agenda to be, pray tell? I've
MB> changed my views about several things during my time participating
MB> in this echo. Just what is your beef? Out with it!
MB> Up until now I thought we had a fairly amicable relationship.
MB> Just what did I say that would cause you to have such a low
MB> opinion of me?
You didn't mean for this to get into the echo, did you? When I first
read it in the echo and it referred to netmail, I assumed you were
sending something else netmail. But when the netmail arrived and it was
the same post, I suspected you had mistakenly sent it to the echo.
... German word for brassiere: Stoppemfrumfloppin.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: question
|Date: 18 Apr 96 18:55:22
EID:f121 209296e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348BA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-> -> On 04-06-96 22:42, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
->
-> DC> out of the cause for doing the unspeakable: Showing that she
-> DC> has a brain and is not afraid to use it.
Hey Dan, Lynda reads the Bible with her intellect engaged, decides that
some of it is metaphor and some of it is literal, and you praise her for
her intelligence.
I read the Bible with my intellect engaged, decide that some of it is
metaphor and some of it is literal, and you scorn me for being a "salad
bar Christian."
Explain.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: spong's approach
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:11:00
EID:8b60 2092a160
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348C5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
MB> It's just you, Al. When a loud and vehement nonbeliever says
MB> "ya know, I think this Bishop-guy has a point," a nondogmatic
MB> believer wouldn't need a kick in the pants to see that it wasn't
MB> the time for saying "the bishop is full of shit."
AS> Granted. Then, by the same token, if Michael was getting more
AS> interested in science, but from a creationist viewpoint, one
AS> shouldn't complain that, as long as he is learning more
AS> science than he knows before, not to worry that the science
AS> book comes from the ICR? Personally, I tend to warn people of
AS> books I think are folly...
MB> That's hardly the same thing. There is a million data points to
MB> debunk creationism; there are NO data points to verify miracles
MB> as literal truth. Given that, you're comparing apples and
MB> Kenworths. A person can believe just about anything they choose
MB> where religion is concerned, and the only counter to those beliefs
MB> is that they are outside of orthodoxy. In the case of Spong's
MB> conjectures, you can't even say that, with a moral certainty. Too
MB> many people agree with him -- certainly enough to make it what
MB> might be called "the New Orthodoxy." Religious beliefs are nothing
MB> more than thoughts; creationism has to line up with something much
MB> more substantial: the physical evidence. It can't do that.
However, Spong bases his conjectures on physical evidence. He invokes
the dating of the gospels, the validity of non-canonical writings,
Jewish literary techniques and other things. In all of those, it is
fair to question his methods.
... Winter weather brings post-nasal drip to city. Phlegm at eleven.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Steamed Rice
|Date: 17 Apr 96 20:43:00
EID:6dd1 2091a560
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348B8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Elliott Finesse <=-
EF> For those interested in such things, a quick analysis of
EF> Fred's question might be in order. It is fascinating in
EF> that there is much more here than one might detect at first
EF> glance.
JH> If you're going to persue this you need to archive each and
JH> every message. Fred will run you around a 40 acre field and
JH> end up claiming he never made the original statement.
Archiving it may not do much good, as he'll simply ignore the
re-post.
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THIEDE
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:21:00
EID:e757 2092a2a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896348C6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> And of course, if that fragment of Matthew IS from 70 to 100
AS> AD, it makes it much more likely to be true, simply because
AS> when it gained general circulation, there were many people
AS> who could remember the events...teenagers at the time of the
AS> Crucifixion who might remember the nine-day Galilean wonder
AS> who waltzed into town and was later killed.
MB> Whistling past the graveyard.
MB> "In a recent article, however, Carsten Thiede, a German
MB> papyrologist, has proposed that the Magdalen gragments
MB> may be dated to the mid-first century (1995). His
MB> theory is based on the observation that these fragments
MB> were written in uncial script (upright, block letters, a
MB> practice that was generally abandoned during the course
MB> of the first century. In order to make his case, Thiede
MB> has argued: (1) that the script is similar to some Greek
MB> texts from Pompey and Herculaneum that have been dated
MB> to the first century; (2) that a Greek fragment found
MB> among the Dead Sea Scrolls was from the Gospel of Mark,
MB> showing that there must have been a deposit of Christian
MB> writings with the Essenes before the destruction of the
MB> temple; and (3) that, if early Christians were so oriented
MB> to texts and so concerned about preserving their written
MB> gospels, they must have started using codices about that
MB> time. The conclusion Thiede wants to draw from this
MB> argumentation is that the Gospel of Matthew must have
MB> been written mid-first century by a disciple who had known
MB> Jesus and was still alive to record that history as it
MB> actually happened. What is more, since the fragments
MB> use an abbreviation for the proper name, Jesus, as well
MB> as for his designation as lord, Thiede thinks that his
MB> disciples must have recognized that the historical Jesus
MB> was in fact divine.
MB>
MB> "Critical scholars will not be impressed. The fragments
MB> are easily explained as second-century texts; unicials could
MB> still have been used as late as 85 C.E., the traditional
MB> scholarly date for Matthew;
85 is second century? In any case, Mack asserts (with no supporting
evidence) that unicals *could* still have been used in 85 ... so?
Latin could be used today, but if someone 2,000 years from now finds a
manuscript written in Latin, the probability will be high that it was
written in 96 BC rather than AD 1996.
MB> Thiede's Dead Sea Scrolls scenario
MB> is preposterous;
Why?
MB> his theory about the Markan fragment among
MB> the Dead Sea Scrolls has been discredited;
How?
MB> and the mass of
MB> detailed scholarship on the origins and history of the early
MB> Christian movements and their writings has simply been
MB> swept aside in the eager pursuit of a chimera.
It is not above criticism itself.
MB> From a
MB> critical scholar's point of view, Thiede's proposal is an
MB> example of just how desperate the Christian imagination
MB> can become in the quest to argue for the literal facticity
MB> of the Christian gospels."
Oh, I feel *so* chastised. Not.
MB> from: Prologue: The mystique of
MB> sacred scripture
MB> _Who Wrote the New
MB> Testament_ by Burton Mack
MB> So, it looks to me like Thiede's rantings are just so much wishful
MB> thinking.
This is the same woman who said of me:
MB> HE can do no wrong, but the rest of us who disagree with him
MB> regarding what wrong is are shit outta luck!
Is it just me, or is there a credibility gap here?
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: GENESIS PROBLEMS [1/4]
|Date: 18 Apr 96 01:34:00
EID:cd1b 20920c40
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Jerry Gilbreath <=-
DW> On (12 Apr 96) Jerry Gilbreath wrote to Sue Armstrong...
JG> There is no evidence of predatory behavior before the flood.
JG> Conditions were much different then, so it is very reasonable to
JG> expect that behavior has changed as well.
DW> That's a nice claim you've got there. Got any evidence for it?
Hello David. See your up to your old tired tricks of condemning others
beliefs, while offering no conviction of your own beyond an admission
of ignorance. Jerry may not be aware your just full of hot air.
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE WHA
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:41:00
EID:d548 2091b520
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Andrew Masten <=-
KDM>AM> Meteoritic dust falls on the earth continuously, adding up to
KDM>AM>thousands, if not millions, of tons of dust per year. Realizing
KDM>AM>this, and knowing that the moon also had meteoritic dust piling
KDM>AM>up for what they thought was millions of years, N.A.S.A. scien-
KDM>AM>tists were worried that the first lunar ship that landed would
KDM>AM>sink into the many feet of dust which should have accumulated.
KDM>AM>
KDM>AM>However, only about one-eight of an inch of dust was found, indi-
KDM>AM>cating a young moon.
KDM>Wrong. One, yes, *one* geologist was worried about this. All his
KDM>colleagues disagreed with him. See _A Man on the Moon_, by Andrew
KDM>Chaiken. I'd give you a page number, but I returned the book to the
KDM>library a few days ago.
KW> Andrew, that would be page 180.
KW> "Cornell astronomer Thomas Gold insisted that the moon was covered by
KW> a layer of fluffy powder dozens of feet thick. He warned that the LM
KW> would sink out of sight as soon as it touched down; he told NASA
KW> that Armstrong and Aldrin should drop brightly colored weights as they
KW> descended and watch to see that they remained in view, or else abort
KW> the landing. None of his colleagues--or even pictures from the
KW> Surveyors, resting unharmed on the surface--could dissuade him."
KW> from "A Man on the Moon" by Andrew
KW> Chaiken, p 180. ISBN 0-14-009706-6
KW> I am always amused by fundies who with one breath deny a theory that
KW> has evidence to back it because it conflicts with their holy writings,
If you have a specific theory in mind, I will be happy to debate the
merits of it.
KW> and with the next breath quote a discarded and discredited theory as
KW> 'proof' of those writings. Some of the stretches of imagination and
KW> misinterpretations of data required to follow these 'creationist
KW> science' theories are stunning. Andrew, I will reserve my willing
KW> suspension of disbelief for fiction, not for crackpots.
The problem with creation science is the same as theories of us being
here by natural causes, both are fraught with conjecture. Niether is
testable in a classic scientific method. In fact both are dogmatic.
Many scientists have stretched thier credibility in making theories
of how everything came about without resorting to an intelligent
designer.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Total Access News & Info Sys, Tacoma, WA 206-472-9884 (1:138/103)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Conference Guidelines
|Date: 18 Apr 96 18:17:35
EID:14d5 20929220
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 a3510e3a
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2466369a
On (17 Apr 96) Jesse Jones wrote to All...
JJ> Quoting ADOLPH HITLER to ALL on 04-14-96
JJ> AH>The Jew is like a virus: once it infects a nation, the host dies.
JJ> AH>---
AH> * Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning?
JJ> AH>(1:123/319)
JJ> Think about it folks: this probably does not violate the
JJ> conference guidelines as enforced here.
JJ> Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 04/16/96
JJ> 72122.1763@compuserve.com
You cannot fight an unseen enemy.
... I confess to an unatural, and abnormal act. I have programmed a computer.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 18 Apr 96 18:06:17
EID:a8dc 209290c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 55125f0e
REPLY: 1:116/19 0485F01C
On (16 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> only get a glimpse of the actual evolution. The process isn't
MB> much different from the amount of records we have of genetic
MB> evolution, as compared with the number of steps that were
MB> actually involved in the process from one-cell-creature to
MB> Man.
AS> Well, even granting the progression, why does the progression
AS> go in that direction...from a vague animism, to animal-gods,
AS> to many humanlike gods, to one humanlike god? If it is not
AS> reflecting something real, than why does it progress in that
AS> way? It does indeed read much like evolution, or better yet,
AS> the growth of knowledge over time. And of course, if those
AS> who claim to be in touch with the spiritual side of things
AS> ARE actually in contact with something real, that would make
AS> sense. It is only if you ascribe it only to their imagination
AS> that it falls down. If it is merely their imagination, why
AS> should a single humanlike diety be more likely than many
AS> animallike dieties?
Actually, I ascribe it to a very human tendency to make nonhuman
things into human things, so they can better understand them. It
is hard to relate to the thoughts of a domestic cat, for example,
but it is much easier if you carry on two-way conversations with
your housepet, taking both sides of the "conversation" yourself. I
know few cat-lovers who don't do that.
AS> ... Hell hath no fury like an unjustified assumption.
AS> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
AS> --- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
AS> * Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
... Ignorance is free but it exacts an enormous price
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Harmony
|Date: 18 Apr 96 18:09:08
EID:63a8 20929120
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 e4fc41d2
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d7
On (18 Apr 96) The Raven wrote to Marilyn Burge...
TR> "This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
MB> If the Europeans had just kept their noses out of things on
MB> that continent, the African tribes would still be in harmony
MB> with nature.
TR> I know I'm going to be sorry for opening this can of worms,
TR> but would you be so kind as to define your terms? What
TR> exactly do you mean by "still be in harmony with nature"?
TR> What harmony are you implying?
TR> I am asking this because the same sort of statement has been
TR> made about the Indians, and I *know* that its bullshit when
TR> it comes to us...
There was a sort of tidal movement to things. People thrived until
they reached a certain point, then their numbers would be dwindled
by some predator or micro-organism, then the population would climb
once again. It is much the same rhythm you see among wildlife when
it is left alone in the here and now.
Europeans disrupted that rhythm by introducing the tribes to a
more urban culture, taking away many of their traditions in the
process. They sent the native peoples to doctors, causing them
to forget the folk medicine that had worked for millennia. They
taught them to be ashamed of their own bodies, which disrupted
many of their rituals and cultural activities. And, what did
those pwople get in return? Not much except overcrowding, poor
or nonexistent public health necessities such as sewage disposal
plants, and a declining ability to live off the land, because land
in adequate quantities was far away and "belonged" to somebody
else.
... 665 - Neighbor of the Beast
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 18 Apr 96 06:27:52
EID:04e4 20923360
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65843a7a
JB> Invested in a CD bible this weekend...illustrated, maps,
JB> the whole bit. I decided to take a peek at the
JB> illustrations. First one...Garden of Eden. Lion in the
JB> foreground, rhino grazing behind....apatosaur in the pool.
ROTFL!
I have this funny hunch this disk doesn't devote too much space to
linguistic or formal criticism.
(Josh McDowel devoted an entire paragraph to formal criticism: he
said it doesn't exist.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 18 Apr 96 06:37:52
EID:3491 209234a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65845e43
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 316aee24
On Apr 09 19:09 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
PS> Third point: As far as I know, Stalin was responsible for
PS> the deaths of 40 million Russians--perhaps a few million
PS> more were accounted for by Hitler. Why do you think the Jews
PS> killed 40 million Russians?
I haven't bothered double checking but I was under the impression
that the number for Russia was 25 million. He's almost doubled it.
And this number comes from the one who makes a big stink about
the 6 million jews being an inflated number (and it probably is,
but only on the neighborhood of 20 to 30 percent tops).
The death toll for the entire Second World War including
combatants and civilians and the war in the Pacific is only
52 million.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Life in the fast lane.
|Date: 18 Apr 96 06:54:42
EID:d4f4 209236c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65847409
REPLY: 1:280/26 8915450d
On Apr 07 01:29 96, Rob Burcham of 1:280/26 wrote:
BJ>> Hello Rob.
BJ>> I do believe you are in need of some one to guide you.
RB> Too bad Marlin Perkins died.
How did it happen?
One too many hits off of the tranquilizer gun?
Or did Jim finally kick his ass?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 18 Apr 96 07:00:06
EID:95c6 20923800
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6584898c
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 145caf69
On Apr 10 00:37 96, Rob Burcham of 1:280/76 wrote:
JG>> I have heard about some of those transitional forms:
JG>>
JG>> Piltdown man ............ outright fraud
JG>> Peking man .............. based on missing evidence
JG>> Nebraska man ............ modeled from a pig's tooth
JG>> Orce man ................ from a donkey's skull
JG>> Java man ................ fully ape
JG>> Neanderthal man ......... fully human, probably afflicted
JG>> with rickets
JG>>
JG>> Do you have any more to add?
RB> Tidy Bowl man............skeleton made of porcelain
Good Humor man skeleton made from popcicle sticks.
Peeking man Primordial vouyer.
Java man Earliest known coffee drinker.
LaBrea man lived in pits.
Egg man Walrus, probably afflicted with
juju eyeball.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Our Daily Spam
|Date: 18 Apr 96 07:10:56
EID:62f2 20923940
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 65849ed1
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2834bb80
On Apr 09 17:57 96, Katherine Wintersnight of 1:381/123@fidonet.org wrote:
KW> I would walk out of the door of my house and reflect that door
KW> is Daleth, and house Beth; now the word "dob" is Hebrew for
KW> bear, and has the number 6, which refers to the Sun. Then you
KW> come to the fence of your property and that is Cheth - number 8,
KW> number of Tarot Trump 7, which is the Chariot: so you begin to
KW> look about for your car. Then you come to the street and the
KW> first house you see is number 86, and that is Elohim, and it is
KW> built of red brick which reminds you of Mars and the Blasted
KW> Tower, and so on. [...]
KW> --A. Crowley "Magic Without Tears"
I've got Magick Without Tears around here someplace. I'm going to
have to dig it out and read the entire passage that came from.
It sounds like a surefire way to drive yourself stark raving mad.
What he describes above sounds more like schizophrenia or a
disociative disorder more than it does any kind of mental
discipline.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: 2 BRANHAM THREE
|Date: 18 Apr 96 10:54:02
EID:9153 209256c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6586be5c
REPLY: 1:116/19 0486C186
On Apr 16 04:03 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
JH>> Other than his obviously apocalytic bent and his dislike
JH>> of women and Catholics infringing upon what he feels is the
JH>> domain of male Protestants, those posts don't really say a
JH>> thing about what the man actually believed.
AS> I didn't see any convenient "creed" or anything where I can
AS> examine what he actually holds as true, per se. I was hoping to
AS> find something about Jews, given Grigor-Scott's bent that way,
AS> but I so far have found little that is germane that way.
He impresses me as being nothing more than your typical Angry White
Male. I suspect his view on Jews is no different than his views on
blacks, Catholics (which in US culture has often been a synonym for
immagrants), women, Asians and others. By demanding some control
over their lives, decent wages and working conditions they are
being "uppity" (they are trespassing into the traditional domain
of the White Male Anglo Protestant).
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 11:08:16
EID:e4f0 20925900
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6586c751
REPLY: 1:116/19 04860836
On Apr 16 00:03 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
JH>> Did you know that the Austin American-Statesman has the
JH>> largest daily newspaper circulation in Austin?
JH>> Pretty fucking amazin' aint it?
JH>> (Austin, by the way, is a one newspaper town.)
AS> Huh? Is that who he's quoting all the time? AUSTIN only has
AS> one newspaper? Heck, Nashville has two, and surely we aren't
AS> as big as Austin.
Hells bells, HOUSTON is a one newspaper town.
But no, I think Austin is a good deal smaller than Nashville. It's
grown a good deal in the last decade, but it's not a large city,
more like a somewhat overgrown college town.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Brian Shreve
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 11:19:00
EID:9aac 20925a60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6586def3
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 3175eaa2
On Apr 18 01:09 96, Brian Shreve of 1:106/113 wrote:
JH>> Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
BS> What relation is that to the ol Hostes Twinkie?
It's Latin.
Just like what Ceasar said when visiting a Cajun diner:
"Etouffe, Brutus?"
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: test
|Date: 18 Apr 96 11:27:46
EID:02f6 20925b60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6586f588
REPLY: 1:3828/1.0 31754865
On Apr 17 10:47 96, Robert Jackson of 1:3828/1 wrote:
St>> Is this getting out? I'd like to order a large pizza
St>> please, with nothing on it.
RJ> One crust, coming up.
Reminds me of when I ordered a pizza from Pizza Hut
over the phone once:
"Will that be deep-dish or hand-tossed?"
"Hand-tossed."
(long pause)
"I'm sorry, but our hand-tossed machine isn't working
right now."
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 17:14:58
EID:789d 209289c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658a20b7
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 350db993
On Apr 15 14:13 96, Sean McCullough of 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org wrote:
>> Only by those who don't understand Article VI.
>> "2. This constitution, and the laws of the United States
>> which shall be made in pursuance thereof;
SM> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SM> Show me where the Constitution authorizes the Federal
SM> Government to legislate for the "general welfare", as
SM> opposed to merely regulating interstate commerce, the
SM> coinage of money, and the power to wage war and make peace.
SM> Please keep in mind that the Preamble does NOT have the
SM> force of law.
Section 8. Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have the power
1. to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts
and provide for the common defence and general welfare
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall
be uniform throughout the United States:
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 17:18:42
EID:789d 20928a40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658a32ef
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 350db993
On Apr 15 14:13 96, Sean McCullough of 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org wrote:
SM> See also: the Ninth Amendment, where all powers not
SM> specifically ENUMERATED in the Constitution to the Feds are
SM> reserved to the States and People.
You're thinking of the Tenth Amendment, not the Ninth.
(An easy enough mistake, they are similar. The ninth deals with
"the people" and the tenth with the states.)
What violation of either have you found that 200+ years of
Supreme Court justices have managed to overlook?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 18 Apr 96 17:26:16
EID:c08b 20928b40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658a3af9
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 350db995
On Apr 15 14:17 96, Sean McCullough of 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org wrote:
SM> Try having that attitude while not living in an obscenely
SM> large urban area. I DARE you!! :-)
Cue "Moving To Montana" by Frank Zappa...
I may someday take that dare. But my Spanish isn't quite
good enough yet.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: You-Know-bomber
|Date: 18 Apr 96 23:51:51
EID:4d2d 2092be60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658dc40e
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89630E42
On Apr 17 21:05 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
DC> BTW, do you happen to remember who had which particular
DC> version of the "correct" spelling? I'm assuming it was
DC> Fred that used "Uni"...
The whole damned mess started when Fred jumped all over Hardy
for spelling it "Unabomber".
Then we went round and round and round and round and round and
round and round and finally Fred claimed that he never said
anything to Hardy about the spelling.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Johnson Smith Catalogue
|Date: 18 Apr 96 23:57:46
EID:c08b 2092bf20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658dd109
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 350db996
On Apr 15 14:19 96, Sean McCullough of 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org wrote:
>> I've traveled with vegitarians before. They're a fucking
>> pain in the ass. They just don't seem to understand that
>> when you are at a truck stop in the middle of Wyoming that
>> you CAN NOT order a plate of bean sprouts and fried
>> bananas.
SM> FAQ!! FAQ!!
SM> And *I* am the one who now gets to decide!! :-)
Speaking of which, whatever happened to Cordless Henshaw?
SM> But seriously, you're right.
Damned strait I'm right. I didn't just make that up. I hitchhiked
from Washington DC to New Orleans with a vegetable. Never again.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 19 Apr 96 00:03:26
EID:163d 20930060
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658dda3b
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3175272f
On Apr 17 08:32 96, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
JH>> And I somehow doubt that they have yet invented the male
JH>> who can FILL a turkey baster.
DM> It's like Bryll Cream (which some here may be old enough
DM> to remember): a little dab'll do ya . . .
But do they make Cornish Game Hen basters?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 19 Apr 96 00:08:20
EID:5ef1 20930100
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658dea59
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 31759c63
On Apr 17 21:35 96, Preston Simpson of 1:123/318 wrote:
JH>> And I somehow doubt that they have yet invented the male
JH>> who can FILL a turkey baster.
PS> Not at one shot, no. I know a guy who is, at last report,
PS> currently working on filling a gallon jar.
Is that what you keep spilling on your keyboard?
Seriously, you need a new circle of associates.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 19 Apr 96 00:12:04
EID:08dd 20930180
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658def92
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89630E3A
On Apr 17 10:18 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
DC> You have to jump forward to Amendment X:
DC> "The powers not delegated to the United States by the
DC> Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
DC> reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Would you care to name a specific power of the Federal
government as an example?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 19 Apr 96 00:22:30
EID:e4f0 209302c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658e1e57
REPLY: 1:116/19 0485FBB6
On Apr 16 00:01 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS>> Farmers here are told to destroy their surplus crops,
AS>> rather than ship it to the starving in Africa...
JH>> Price supports and market controls didn't spring full
JH>> grown out of the head of some Washington bureaucrat. They
JH>> exist because farmers lobbyed (and continue to lobby) for
JH>> them.
AS> [...] Yes, it certainly would cost us something to ship it to
AS> the Africans. No, we wouldn't get anything back...except maybe
AS> being able to sleep a little better at nights.
And it's not a plan I would object to. (Certainly a better use of
tax money than pissing it away on 2 Billion Dollars a crack B-2
bombers we don't need.)
What I took exception to was the notion that farmers "are told to"
as though they were being forced by some remote, alien, inaccessable
power. Regulation and legistlation never comes out of a vacuum. It
comes from the people WE put in office, and is designed to answer
what we perceive our needs to be. It may or may not be an
appropriate response to those needs, and the needs may be
immaginary, but in the long run we get exactly what we asked for
(wether we like it or not). I'm a firm believer that people end
up getting the kind of government they deserve.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 19 Apr 96 00:35:58
EID:ab03 20930460
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658e828a
REPLY: 1:116/19 04861812
On Apr 16 00:09 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
JH>> The actual Exodus was a gradual migration over the course of
JH>> centuries. As they made the transition from a society of nomadic
JH>> shepherds to settled agrarians, it was necessary to explain the
JH>> ruins they found in their new homeland. Add to this a general
JH>> resentment of Egypt and anything Egyptian and you have all the
JH>> makings of a Cecil B DeMille movie.
AS> But why would they pick an obviously Egyptian name--Moses
AS> (see such Egyptian names as Thutmose)--for their culture
AS> hero? This is one where I suspect there is a lot more truth
AS> to the Bible accounts than we know at present.
To be fair, I'll admit that the author(s) of the Exodus/Joshua
account were clearly familiar with life in Egypt. You mention
Moses's name, which is Egyptian for "son" (Thutmose would be
Thut's son and Rameses was "son of Ra".) Also, we know that Moses
would have been able to storm into Pharoah's court to do his snake
tricks. The Egyptians expected their God-Kings to be publicly
accessable. An audience wasn't a privelege, it was a right.
So how do I explain this? I don't. I wasn't there and have no idea.
But to take a literal reading of Exodus/Joshua raises many more
questions than it answers. Even if you discount the miracles, you
are still left with having to explain what the Midanites were doing
in the Sinai, the total lack of corroborating Egyptian history,
why the Ten Commandment story is an almost exact paralell of
Hammarabi receiving tablets of laws from Shamash (some 400 years
prior to Moses), the lack of archeological evidence for a swift
and decisive conquest of Canaan, why the Ark of the Covenant closely
paralells the portable sanctuaries of other nomadic peoples in the
region, how is it that when we first meet Joshua he is already a
military leader then later on he is a young houseservant to Moses
and then later on a general again, and last but by no means least:
why in the hell did it take them 40 years to travel a couple
hundred miles?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 19 Apr 96 01:19:04
EID:ea98 20930a60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 658e9243
REPLY: 1:116/19 0486B5EC
On Apr 16 03:08 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> What is the current thinking of the loonies (whom you have more
AS> patience to read than I) concerning the Men in Black? Are they
AS> goverment agents out to eliminate any traces of the aliens'
AS> being discovered, or are they allied with the aliens, or what?
They have fallen from the popular pantheon.
Their origin was traced to the claims of a single individual who
was a little too looney for even the average UFOnut.
To put it simply: they were effectively debunked.
JH>> Don't mind me, I've only recently become rather disillusioned
JH>> with Frazer's Golden Bough. The more I look at it critically
JH>> the more I see where he made absolutely fantastic leaps to
JH>> conclusions on only the scantiest of evidence.
AS> Then you DEFINITELY don't want to read Graves' WHITE
AS> GODDESS. He makes Frazier look TAME.
Oh, I'll read it eventually. I'll just have to keep the salt
shaker nearby is all.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRIS
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:11:07
EID:0852 2092a160
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 1a593178
REPLY: 1:116/19 0494CB28
On (15 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Lee Woofenden...speaking of
Frice...
AS> But I personally think, although I'm sure of his disbelief in
AS> the Christian God, he is nowhere near as rabid or extreme as he
AS> appears.
LW> What makes you think that?
AS> He advised another person not to take his on-line persona too
AS> seriously...and he seems to be treating Staal reasonably well in
AS> #holysmoke on IRC.
AS> Besides, who COULD be as rapid or extreme as he appears.
Oh, Al...don't give Fred _too_ much credit. :) There has been a Friday
evening or two when he was just as 'rabid' as here...
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
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PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Lee Woffenden
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRIS
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:15:46
EID:a6e4 2092a1e0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 6372e241
REPLY: 1:116/19 0494CB28
On (15 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Lee Woofenden...
LW> It would be interesting to meet some of these radical fundy atheists
in
AS> person
LW> and see if they are as unpleasant face-to-face as they are when they're
AS> safely
LW> hiding behind their keyboards and computer screens.
I think you would be surprised! I don't see it necessarily as 'hiding'
anymore than merely understanding or just plain 'knowing better' in real
time...
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
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PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:20:06
EID:75cb 2092a280
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 857ad0b4
REPLY: 1:116/19 0485DC30
On (16 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Sue Armstrong...
SA> As for the extra-legal stuff, John was planning to come up this way
SA> this year. Where George lives isn't all that far out of the way, on
SA> the way to Windsor from Missouri. I think George-0 forgot that.
AS> I was under the mistaken impression that they lived in the same town,
AS> with the Staals and Dave Oosterman. It's probably lucky for George
AS> that they DON'T...
I don't know about this 'they' stuff, but George lives (unfortunately
for us) in Grand Rapids as do we...(phone, address available upon
request - George's, that is)...
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
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PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: New HolySmoke files!
|Date: 18 Apr 96 18:43:00
EID:5d7f 20929560
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 9963e3a6
REPLY: 1:228/45.2 31757e8d
On (17 Apr 96) Dave Oosterman wrote to Jim Staal...
DO> -=| On 15 Apr 96 10:19, Jim Staal said: |=-
DO> DO>> Glad to see I'm still in on the list! Ain't got access to milk
DO> DO>> crates no more...
JS> Sure...you are smiling now..._I_ still have access to a crate. I know
JS> where you keep em. (good luck, bro, in you new endeavor)
DO> Thank you, kind sir.
Hey...I know how this 'career change' stuff can be. :)
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 18 Apr 96 18:47:31
EID:572f 209295e0
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 d30d8410
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 31749c14
On (17 Apr 96) Sue Alexander wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> Hmmm...hide what truth, Sue? Mr. Mabon spoke the truth as all his
JS> statements were based, founded, substantiated with scripure.
SA> He spoke your "truth" in a particularly obnoxious manner, Jim.
SA> The truth that was hidden was simply the knowledge of who was speaking
SA> and
SA> being spoken to. In this, you could ignore comments about behavior
SA> when they related to the character that you created, as it was not
SA> your
SA> persona that was being criticized.
You misunderstood, Sue. As I was under heavy attack as myself, the mild
mannered Mister Mabon filled the bill nicely. He wasn't criticized, BTW,
other than one misunderstanding with Mr. McKensie...
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
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SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: You Can Get Help
|Date: 17 Apr 96 12:50:38
EID:4f6e 20916640
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 481f91e1
On (16 Apr 96) DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL...
DR> It is obvious that you are suffering, so when I noticed an
DR> ad in Scientific American today that addresses your terrible
DR> problem, I thought I'd send the info your way.
DR> Please call 1-800-215-9377 or visit their Internet site at
DR> http://www.impotent.com
DR> You're welcome.
What else is their to say, Shy, other than...tsk.
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: You Can Get Help
|Date: 18 Apr 96 18:42:18
EID:4f6e 20929540
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 0f8d520d
On (16 Apr 96) DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL...
DR> It is obvious that you are suffering, so when I noticed an
DR> ad in Scientific American today that addresses your terrible
DR> problem, I thought I'd send the info your way.
DR> Please call 1-800-215-9377 or visit their Internet site at
DR> http://www.impotent.com
DR> You're welcome.
Tsk....shy, I thought you knew better than this by now...:)
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
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PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: You Can Get Help
|Date: 18 Apr 96 20:02:29
EID:4f6e 2092a040
MSGID: 1:228/26.14 8064fd8e
On (16 Apr 96) DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL...
DR> It is obvious that you are suffering, so when I noticed an
DR> ad in Scientific American today that addresses your terrible
DR> problem, I thought I'd send the info your way.
DR> Please call 1-800-215-9377 or visit their Internet site at
DR> http://www.impotent.com
DR> You're welcome.
No problems you mention since August when I stopped my 'medication'...
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
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SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SEX CHANGE!
|Date: 18 Apr 96 21:29:32
EID:4dd4 2092aba0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 176f0d30
Hello Judith!
Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
MM> Holy smoke!!! Now I see why Judith got so fed up with Holofernes.
JB> The stupid fuck quoted HIS OWN response to me and attributed
JB> it to me.
That chap is a natural for the I_UFO echo. On the other hand,
over there he would just fade into the woodwork.
JB> Not to mention the mixing of genders. (I've known
JB> some men named Marian and Beverly and even one Vivian, but
JB> never one named Judith.)
Jah, I guess even machoman Johan Wayne was a Marian..
MM> and a promise that he never will engage in further girl scouting
MM> activities.
JB> Mimi, I don't know about SA, but men here have been able to
JB> be Girl Scout leaders for over 25 years. They only have to
JB> be over 18 and take the training.
Nope, I have never heard of a male den mother here (but anyway,
my joke fell a bit flat. Sorry)
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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PATH: 7107/21 9 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 18 Apr 96 18:40:07
EID:ed25 20929500
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 176d0cd2
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3410044d
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
tlp> Speaking of bounced messages, I have no idea why this one bounced!
FR> No doubt it was the Conspiracy who drive those black helicopters
FR> that are out to destroy you.
Perhaps I'm getting forgetful in my dotage but, I don't recognize what this
is supposed to be about.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Starwyn
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: test
|Date: 18 Apr 96 15:22:00
EID:ed7a 20927ac0
CB>> Is this getting out? I'd like to order a large pizza please,
CB>with nothing on it.
CB>a naked pizza? how quaint.
I wasn't going to *eat* it, I was going to use it as armour.
CB>where ya been?
Around ... lurking more than anything.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: Visualize Whirled Peas! (1:104/515)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 104/515 330 531 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Starwyn
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: test
|Date: 18 Apr 96 15:26:00
EID:31f9 20927b40
AS> St> Is this getting out? I'd like to order a large pizza
AS>please, with nothing on it.
AS> Only if you greet the pizza boy with nothing on.
Now why would I want to kill the poor thing?
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: Visualize Whirled Peas! (1:104/515)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 104/515 330 531 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Starwyn
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: test
|Date: 18 Apr 96 15:30:00
EID:593f 20927bc0
DC>Sounds like a rather large hunk of bread, toasted... I prefer
DC>at least some sauce and cheese on mine.
DC>How've you been, Starwyn? LT-NS
I've been better ... but I'm still alive and when its appropriate, kicking
... and you?
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: Visualize Whirled Peas! (1:104/515)
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PATH: 104/515 330 531 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Starwyn
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: test
|Date: 18 Apr 96 17:11:00
EID:16af 20928960
MH> St> Is this getting out? I'd like to order a large pizza
MH>please, with nothing on it.
MH> And a root beer, hold the mug. :)
Gotta love the way that foam tickles ...
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: Visualize Whirled Peas! (1:104/515)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 08:11:52
EID:5ad9 20924160
MSGID: 1:207/212 31c6f542
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89624386
On (16 Apr 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> At some point, most married couples with children decide they want
no
MH> more children. Does that mean the children they did have were
MH> mistakes?
That's a big difference from saying "I shouldn't have done this in the
first place, I'll give you this rainbow to show you I promise never to
do it again."
... Like a tagline [hey!] Stolen for the very first time
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: "No True Christian...
|Date: 17 Apr 96 21:52:00
EID:b287 2091ae80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E16
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 14:35, Jim Germiquet got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> I personally interpret the bible as a collection of 1/2 truths,
DC> lies and mythology. Therefore, my interpretation is just as
JG> not have to agree with yours anymore than you have to agree with mine.
Then, stop pounding it to those that don't believe in it.
JG> try and present the concept. Whether or not it is "interpretted"
JG> properly or not is irrelevent. The concept I present stands on its
Then, stop trying to make your interpretation of it any more than
what it is: a wild guess.
JG> own. That is why I use so many metaphors, or parallels or examples.
It
JG> is the "concept" I am trying to present, the fact that I take a passage
Philosphers, of many other religions and non-religions have already
done a better job of presenting what you think is the "truth". Stop
trying to re-invent the wheel.
JG> We really need a new bible that shows these concepts in light of the
JG> situations we face today. The concepts remain the same whether they
Problem is, your bible, written by your god, is 2,000 yrs out of
date and aging fast.
JG> ? Well I call God's truth the REAL truth. while peoples truth are just
Got a god to present that will back your claim?
JG> SO to me the spirit of god = the spirit of the REAL truth.
IOW, you believe without a shred of evidence that your god exists.
JG> Are you willing to accept the truth if you see it ? Or is your agenda
JG> more important ?
What agenda? I've got no church master telling me what I have to
believe or go to hell. It's you that is that whipping boy.
JG> Are you willing to obey god when you hear him ? Or is your agenda
JG> more important?
Looks more like yours is, as you are hearing voices.
... Foxtrot Union Charley Kiloflop. Yankee Ocean Union.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: [INSERT DRIVEL HERE]
|Date: 18 Apr 96 11:42:00
EID:425c 20925d40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 19:06, Dennis Hall got back to Martin Goldberg
> REASONS TO DOUBT THE EXISTANCE OF A GOD.
>
> 1. Major Errors in the bible.
> 2. The need of god to test us.
> 3. The existance of many different gods.
> 4. The general lack of perfection in the universe.
> 5. The once god explained and now naturally explained phenomenae.
> 6. Deeds of retribution and vengence attributed to god and humans
> joy over it.
> 7. God's need for thanks.
> 8. Suffering of people who do not deserve it.
DH> REASONS THAT THOSE ARE OLD TIRED ARGUMENTS.
DH> 1. Major truths/undeniable realities in the bible.
Like talking snakes? Global Floods?
DH> 2. You have made an assumption concerning God's motivation for
DH> testing.
Why would an omniscient god need to test anyone?
DH> 3. A rock could be a god to someone.
At least that god would have some basis in reality.
DH> 4. The general abundance of generalizations.
Sounds more like repeated redundancies.
DH> 5. Weak argument.
Yes, yours surely is.
DH> 6. Are you saying that there is a right and a wrong? Where do your
DH> standards come from?
We make them up as the society progresses, or, unfortunately in
some cases, degresses.
DH> Would you feel better if I were to lose my faith?
What's the problem? You have too tenuous of a grasp on it? And, if
you lost it, where would it go? To the Dogma Lost and Found Dept?
... Faith: an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:17:00
EID:57f1 2091b220
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E17
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 14:13, Sean Mccullough got back to J.j. Hitt
SM> See also: the Ninth Amendment, where all powers not specifically
SM> ENUMERATED in the Constitution to the Feds are reserved to the States
SM> and People.
X Amendment.... I sent J.j. a quote of it.
... (A)bort (R)etry (I)gnore (O)verthrow System?
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 12:41:00
EID:8b94 20926520
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 00:06, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Waco compound that whatsisname Parker keeps talking about here.
DC> The lettering on my key is fast being eroded from seeing
AS> Why doesn't he haunt the political echoes? I know we talk about
AS> everything here, but usually sooner or later we return to religion.
AS> Why BORE us with all this?
Probably because he gets the same responses from the echoes that
his subject matter should be addressed!
... +Origin: Asmodeus Network! If it screws up, you're only kidding!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 18 Apr 96 13:28:00
EID:9c8e 20926b80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 00:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> them...First Alert, Red Alert, Pun Alert...
DC> Just be one... After all, the world needs more of them all.
AS> More Alert? Yeah, we DO need to be more alert...
Awww, come on, Al, you do realize that I was talking about Lerts!
... "Truth is the safest lie."--Yiddish proverb
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 18 Apr 96 13:36:00
EID:9c8e 20926c80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 09:07, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> No Super Girl either, I guess...
AS> Well, there is one, but she's not a survivor of Krypton. And there
They are really changing things around, aren't they!
AS> continuity instead made it much MORE complicated...bingo.
DC> The must have hired the writers from form writers of the US Tax code.
AS> No, I think it's the basic idea; everyone wanted to make a new start
AS> of their favorite character...and they ended up with things MORE
AS> confused, not less. Only Flash really kept its history...by killing
It would be far better if they just evolved new ones, rather than
try to re-write the old classics.
AS> see him (I met him and Kirby back in the early seventies when they
AS> Evidently he is in favor or it, and "excited" by it, but really, he
Almost sounds non-commital, except for the potential profits.
AS> (Spider-Man will be one character barely touched by the changes...no
AS> rewriting THERE.)
Spiderman has, I think, a rather large following. Plus, his history
is probably the most complete of the bunch. Besides his actual
beginning, you have his 8 or ten years of being in HS, plus another
10 or more of being in college. Last time I read him, he was a
teaching grad student at City College. Has he made professor yet?
... After God created woman, He atoned by creating Beer.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:32:00
EID:383b 2091b400
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E18
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 21:24, Mark Barnett got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC>Just what color is the sky in your world?
DC> MB> Light blue.
DC>Please explain why the sky is blue.
MB> Because the Lord made it that way.
Nice "reasoning". I'm sure it keeps your brain from hurting from
having to do a little reading on light waves and refraction.
Then, have him come around and show us all how he did it. He seems
to be conspicuously missing from any investigation as to why it is
that color. However, there seems to be a lot of evidence that shows
physically as to _why_ the sky is that color.
... Real facts never contradict faith. - Ron Stringfellow (pentecostal)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:34:00
EID:383b 2091b440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E19
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 21:27, Mark Barnett got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>Still in grief mode? You should see someone about that problem
DC>rather than joining a cult that feeds on that grief of yours.
MB> You miss understand I am not griefing for my parents any more they
MB> where both Christians and are now in heavan with the Lord, so instead
MB> of grief I feel joy for them.
You're happy that your parents are dead? Yep, True Death Cult, at
it's finest.
... Faith means not having to think about it for yourself
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:36:00
EID:383b 2091b480
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E1A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 21:30, Mark Barnett got back to Don Martin
DM> Atheist.
MB> No Believer in The Lord God, Jesus Christ.
Atheist, I see. Thanks for the confirmation on your position.
... Faith: an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laura Hodgkins
|Sub: angles
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:38:00
EID:1ab8 2091b4c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E1B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 12:16, Laura Hodgkins got back to Mimi Milstein
LH> Guardian angles don't follow a person around, they only come when help
LH> is needed,
If they don't follow them around, how do they know they are needed?
What alerts them when they are dicking off when they _are_ needed?
... "flaming fundy looney of the first order": By Stil Anon
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laura Hodgkins
|Sub: angles
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:40:00
EID:1ab8 2091b500
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E1C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 12:17, Laura Hodgkins got back to Al Schroeder
LH> Why do you think it's not possible to see a person's guardian angel?
Provide me a phot of yours, witnessed, of course. If the affidavit
is confirmed by Carl Sagan, I'll give you your point.
... Barney the dinosaur is the AntiChrist... I have proof. Charodey
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: BBS in the back ground.
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:49:00
EID:0537 2091b620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-16-96 13:54, Kenneth Mcabee got back to All
KM> FrontDoor running in the background. I get timeouts while sending or
KM> recieving files in the background. No problem at all while in the
KM> foreground. Any ideas?
Your god told me it will work if you take your dog out and
sacrifice him on an altar and burn him on a pyre.
... "That shoots that theory to hell." -- Al Calavicci
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: better than
|Date: 18 Apr 96 13:41:00
EID:e790 20926d20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 23:52, Preston Simpson got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Use PTFE coated nails... You can shoot them with a nail gun
DC> into your hand with minimal cause for worry of infection.
PS> Do you know this from personal experience?
Partially... We're having the workplace remodeled and one of the
people there had done that to himself once. Cleaned his hand
out with a large does of peroxide and finished his deck off, as
it was starting to rain and he needed it done...
DC> Besides, they penetrate far smoother than the galvanized type!
PS> Er. Um. Yeah.
Then, there's always the pop rivet way to go, if you missed that post
from another writer!
... It's Ensign Hooker. She's head, Jim.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: CHRISTANIC BLOW JOBS
|Date: 18 Apr 96 13:44:00
EID:2e06 20926d80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 09:45, Fredric Rice got back to Al Schroeder
FR> local elections are _far_ more important than pretending to vote for
a
FR> president. That may change depending on how the line-item veto is used.
Line item veto is the only way that accountabilty for the bad laws
and riders can be assessed.
... Hail to the Sun god! He is a fun god! Ra! Ra! Ra!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Graduate, MHS of A
|Date: 18 Apr 96 13:46:00
EID:825d 20926dc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-16-96 12:32, David Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
>>KD> How could a boat of that size have been seaworthy?
>JG> The ark is about the size of the Titanic.
DR> ROTFLMAO!
Yep, I liked that one myself!
DR> worthy as the Challenger was space-worthy, thus picking a more
DR> recient "analogy?"
I only would have had to roll out a SAM site to shoot that one down.
DR> "Titanic" he says. ROTFL!!!!!
Definitely FAQ material!
... Problem with Baptists is they don't hold them under long enough." JAL
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Orphan Children need God
|Date: 18 Apr 96 10:35:00
EID:14d4 20925460
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 10:48, Richard Smith got back to All
RS> Well, I also note that there will be a real problem with
RS> differentiating between my true initials and the initials of Ryan,
RS> etc., but what can I do? Mine is a common name, especially the last
Why don't you just continmue to use:
RS> Norbert Sykes ?
... "Igor, what brought you here?" "Just a hunch, master...."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: SPONG ON THE HERESY TRIAL
|Date: 18 Apr 96 13:55:00
EID:e578 20926ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 09:07, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> the oldest Gospels...Mark and Matthew. (Matthew according to
DC> That would make it appear that it was written by someone not very
DC> close at all to Judaisim or someone that wanted to distance the
AS> of Jerusalem, feeling in Rome and other places might have been
AS> against the Jews, and thus promoted a distancing of the Christian
AS> church from the Jews. But then, if they did that, judging by other
AS> passages in Matthew and Mark, they did an awful job...
If you look at the bulk of the bible, most of the writing has been
rather poor. Very little of it holds the tiniest candle to other
writings of the period.
DC> Actually, except for the backdrop of Judea, none of the gospels
DC> are aimed at Jews. It's the best explanation why those books are
AS> Cannot agree. After all, things like the Jews being shocked at a mere
AS> man forgiving sins, would be moot points to the Romans, but take on
AS> added signicance from a Jewish point of view.
Yet, as you will note, there are very few, if any Jews, other than
the core believers, that become xian. The main need of the Hebrew
bible is to add an air of antiquity to the new myth.
... What are these churches now if not the tombs and sepulchers of God?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 18 Apr 96 14:04:00
EID:be00 20927080
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 00:09, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> I think it's a left-handed thread..."
AS> ROFL! (pounding floor).
AS> It came back to me when you said it.
Glad to have made your day!
DC> so, called _Comedy of Terors_ It starred all the horror stars:
DC> Basil Rathbone, Peter Lorre, Boris Karloff and Vincent Price.
AS> Surely I saw it, I saw most of those type movies, but that was
AS> twenty to thirty years ago. (BTW, saw the last half of the
There's a great anecdote about that one. They used a prop of Peter
Lorre's head in the movie. Peter refused to touch it when off of
the set. Said it "Scaaaarred hiim.." I imagine he others in the
group had fun tossing it around!
AS> PRESIDENT'S ANALYST the other night that you recommended, and really
AS> liked it, in a paranoid sort of way...)
Thinking back on it, it does approach whats going on about trying
to censor the internet, doesn't it...
DC> The movie Candy Man was pretty good, though it did have some rather
DC> bloody moments. However, a lot of the terror was in the mind of the
AS> That's what made the first HALLOWEEN movie so good; there was some
I'm not sure if I saw the original...
AS> other ones overdid it, but the original had some real suspense....
Did it have any comic relief? That's why the orinigal Phibes movie
was so good. Sort of like a great rollercoaster ride.
... Politically Correct: Euphemism for censorship
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Selena Kerr
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 18 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:3181 209270a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-15-96 22:29, Selena Kerr got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Not in the least. Do you like a crispy, high fiber crust?
SK> uhh.. sure.. don't like chocolate pie though.
Not sure if we can get that in another flavor... Perhaps a
pink pepermint may be in order.
... The Necrotelecomnicon: Book of telephone numbers's of the dead.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: WARTS
|Date: 18 Apr 96 14:07:00
EID:642a 209270e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-16-96 14:23, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>You must not be getting any messages from Grigor-Scott... You're
KW> I thought that Grigor-Scott was the reason that they invented the 'n'
KW> key.
Close: I thing it was the main switch to the electric chair...
... Marion Barry: Gram for gram DC's best mayor ever
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Dennis Hall
|Sub: WHAT IS A RELIGION?
|Date: 18 Apr 96 11:14:00
EID:036d 209259c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-14-96 19:20, Dennis Hall got back to Martin Goldberg
>DH> you have faith in the "fact" or idea that there is no God.
> I do not need faith in the fact. Facts, by definition, stnd by
DH> Exactly. If I told anyone in this conference to prove that God did not
DH> exist, they would foam at the mouth and tell me something to the
Why do you think that? Why not provide the facts to support you
statement?
DH> effect that one cannot prove the "non-existence" of something. That
DH> sounds fair enough to me.
Provide evidence that Star Goat didn't eat your god, then. After all,
He did, you know. And, His only Begoaten Son, Billy, died on the
Holy BBQ for your prior sinning of worshiping your false god.
DH> Do you believe in anything spiritual/ethereal?
Got any evidence to show that they exist?
... "PRAISE GOD!! If he wasn't dead I would not be SAVED!" J Wilcox
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: woids
|Date: 18 Apr 96 11:25:00
EID:3042 20925b20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89640E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-11-96 15:16, Rick Mcfarlane got back to Martin Goldberg
RM> But you are also wrong. It does NOT say (as you put it) that "Pi =
RM> 3.0"
RM> There are lots of examples of biblical errors and inconsistencies. The
RM> fact that you insist on reusing this one, knowing that it's bogus,
Wrong. The writing in the bible is clearly in error when it
attempts to provide the dimensions of the bath. It was cleary
written by ignorant shepherders who never built a complicated
structure in their life.
Further, at the same time, other peoples already understood the
rudimentary relationship between a circle and its diameter. Face
it, your book was "dictated" to one of the most backward groups
in the area. However, the evidence points more to the fact that
they made up a lot of it and stole the rest of it from the other
cultures around them.
... Mythos has a purpose. Religion has an agenda.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 18 Apr 96 04:03:24
EID:147b 20922060
MSGID: 1:3615/1.11 470a37c0
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 3173ed68
On (16 Apr 96) Sue Alexander wrote to Jim Germiquet...
JG> Also women are much more skilled at the art of
JG> mental abuse than men,
^^^^^
SA> Please give references for your claim that women are "much more
SA> skilled at the art of mental abuse than men", being sure to identify
SA> what is classified as abuse by the studies that you cite.
That was probably a typo. He *meant* to say, "...women are much more
skilled at the art of mental abuse (and everything else) than *ME*..."
His fingers slipped and hit the "n" by mistake. :-)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God Shuffled His Feet (1:3615/1.11)
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|From: KEN DAVIS
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: test
|Date: 19 Apr 96 05:04:02
EID:ae5c 20932880
MSGID: 1:2624/610.0 31775702
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8217
While lurking about unseen, Richard Smith spake thusly to Ken Davis:
KD> just testing the system. Am I gettin out there, anyone?
RS> No.
Thanks. :)
... BULLFIGHTER: 1 little man against a 1/2ton of pissed off POT ROAST!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: The Raven
|Sub: MY BOOK
|Date: 18 Apr 96 14:09:02
EID:6a32 20927120
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31768995
A lone voice in the wilderness, The mournfully howled out "MY BOOK"
AS> another post, are legally actionable. Not only George could be sued,
AS> but possibly the sysop of his BBS, and possibly the moderator of this
AS> echo, Styx.
TR> No. George is liable for petty theft, extortion, transmission of
TR> threats over phone lines, and destruction of private property (Class
TR> B). In Florida, that's a year in jail plus fines. The others (his
TR> sysop and Styx) aren't liable for anything.
He's not liable for anything. I found the book in my mailbox late
last evening. The notes inside indicate it is, indeed, John's
book.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... Quantum Mechanics, Chaos and Complexity, oh my!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: Public apology
|Date: 17 Apr 96 19:53:01
EID:6b96 20919ea0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31768994
In light of the fact that John Brawley's book is indeed safe and
sound, I hereby, as promised in netmail and over the phone, publicly
apologise to george rudzinsky.
My sincerest and most humble apologies for the misunderstanding,
george, and I look forward to that coffee I owe you in July, if you
swing through Windsor. Kudos for putting one over on me; I haven't
had this good a laugh on myself in quite a while.
Salut!
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... "Lord, thank you for teaching me humility" - Friar Tuck, yoked
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 18 Apr 96 10:59:00
EID:aa68 20925760
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31768993
This echo has been the victim of the grandest practical joke I've
ever seen.
George got you, got you, got you, and got me too. And our little
dogs, too.
John's book is safe and sound - in my possession. It was mailed on
the 10th, and arrived (after, actually, I recieved netmail and
talked to george on the phone) on the 17th. With it came enclosed a
US$1, which will be forwarded to John as well.
We should have picked up on the "up in smoke" pun, which did not,
after all, refer to the heinous crime of book-burning, but was
merely a pun on the echo. "As per the agreement", John will be
getting his book via myself.
If there's one thing I respect, it's a damn good jape, especially
one that I get ensared in as well. I don't think I've ever seen an
echo in this much of an uproar. I can't stop laughing - mostly at
myself.
As promised, a formal apology follows this message, and I, on my own
volition, ask Styx for clemency in light of this new information.
John, if you want your book straightaway, let me know; either way,
it will be on its way to you very shortly.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm quite happy (and
relieved). This is the closest thing to good news I've had in quite
a while.
--Wolfie
"The rich get richer,
The poor get the picture,
The bombs never hit yer
When you're down so low."
--Midnight Oil
... Man is a fool, always wanting what is not.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Pistol-Mology
|Date: 19 Apr 96 08:40:24
EID:7785 20934500
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 167e839c
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 3173bf19
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
LW> How do we know the solidity is out there and not in the
LW> mind? How do we know it is not projected into our mind by some
LW> larger consciousness?
Always the little fundy, eh? Trying to twist your own version of reality
around to fit your delusions of a gawd's existence? When YOU begin proving
that there is such a thing as some pitiful little gawdling hiding in the
shadows...and I mean real proof not fantasy and speculation which is all
a fundy ever knows...then you'll get such respect in return. Till then...continue
to live by the real rules of the universe...reality. And don't get hit
by any Mack-Trucks along the way. Dos-Trucks are better.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE FLOOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:09:00
EID:9563 20921120
MSGID: 1:116/19 04247C24
AS> Well, Jesus lived one lifetime...which is all any of us get. He
AS> experienced it for a time, and has some idea of what we go through,
AS> rather than the vicarious experience of being omnipotent.
DC> However, Al, being omnipotent means that he should have been able
DC> to understand that concept before he decided to be human. If he
DC> didn't...
Well, omniscient, anyway. But I can read a book written by someone who
has undergone the pain and grief of, say, the Vietnam War. I might
understand it, I might be moved by it, I might wonder how someone could
go through such terror...but it is not the same as being there, with no
escape. It is an intellectual knowledge, not a gut one.
AS> I never denied it in some instances, Dan. Many of the martyr stories
AS> of the second and third centuries fall into that category. The
DC> Yep, they do seem to, don't they.
And very few people doubt that, any more than people hold the Grail story
to be literally true.
AS> question is, are the accounts of Jesus' life like those, or are they
AS> more like the reports of Caesar's death and Antony's speech to the
AS> Romans afterwards?
DC> Why not? As it's the story that counts, not the facts and evidennce.
Ahhh,,,but Antony DID inflame the population after Caesar's death,
telling them of the gifts Caesar had left the people of Rome. The
"friends, Romans, counrymen" speech in JULIUS CAESAR by Shakespeare isn't
as embellished as you might think. We know that from history books.
... A little knowledge isn't enough.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:02:00
EID:c44f 20921040
MSGID: 1:116/19 04248048
AS> Does that make you number one on Mike's Twit Hit List?
DC> That should even work on Mikey's twit J.j. Hitt's list!
If you insist. (Said he, disappearing into the mist..)
AS> Oh, I never forwarded yours...I don't remember you ever requesting
AS> it. I remember David requesting to forward things to Mike from ALL,
DC> I don't think I did, as I think he really hadn't twitted anyone,
DC> but just became comotose. :)
At the very least, he's seen replies to those he's twitted.
AS> But enough. If _I_ set up a twit filter, it would annoy the heck
AS> out of me others trying to circumvent it. I just use the "enter"
DC> I think that's what Mikey found our!
He now admits it's a mistake, but I don't know if he has detwitted you
again or not.
AS> BTW. I'll talk about practically anything, but I only get into
AS> unreasoning fanaticism on religion.)
DC> What's "religion"?
Hmmm. Good point. Judging by this echo, a better question might be to ask
what ISN'T...
... Type unto others as you would have them type unto you.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:08:00
EID:5f35 20921100
MSGID: 1:116/19 042484A8
AS> records extensively, and also a letter quoted by Philo to Herod from
a
AS> grandson, concerning Pilate...but they make no mention of Roman
AS> records. Since especially THE EXECUTION OF JESUS is looking at the
AS> LEGAL nicities of the case against Jesus, and he does it in a
DC> The crucifiction requires that the Romans provide the authority to
DC> carry it out.
Of course. No one is disputing that the Romans were needed. What I'm
wondering is if we have records on comparable cases (such as the death of
Theudas or the Egyptian, both pretenders to Messiahship in the first
century) or the actual records of Pilate. As far as I knew, the only
records we had at all of Pilate's reign were the records of Josephus, a
quick mention in Philo, and the mention of Pilate in Tacitus.
AS> nontheist viewpoint (he thinks, if anything, the Pilate of the Gospels
AS> is a whitewashed version, that the Pilate of history was too hard and
DC> I'm sure it is, as Pilate was recalled from Judea for making more
DC> trouble than he quelled.
I'm not so sure. No man is totally two-dimensional. Although if the
normally cruel Pilate was taken aback by Jesus, it could be a sign of
Jesus' presence as being out of the ordinary...or, it could just be
Pilate's distrust of doing the dirty work for the Sanhedrin. It may have
been pride that kept him from being used for their purposes.
AS> "Hey, Jude, don't make it bad..." There's also some speculation that
AS> he had Zealot connections.
DC> That is probably very likey.
DC> BTW, the Beatles song you reference is not to the point, but a
DC> reference to Thomas Hardy's _Jude the Obscure_.
Well, I knew it was not concerning Judas (although I was not sure that
they derived it from the Hardy novel...too obscure for me, I guess...)
but we've been discussing sixties' groups so much lately...
... Welcome to our Star System. Now Go Home.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CULT EVALUATION FORMS
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:01:00
EID:b481 20921820
MSGID: 1:116/19 04248840
AS> difference?" considering my own beliefs. Well, the difference is
AS> this. (A) Multiple witness for most of the miracles (i.e., several
AS> different accounts in the Gospels) rather than a first person account
DC> There are also 2 different accounts as to how this universe was
DC> started, per the bible.
Witnessed by...? Obviously if there is a single Creator, there can
only be one witness...or if your beliefs are correct, there was no one,
period. The two versions may reflect how the original story changed and
evolved in the splitting of the two kingdoms, and then the reunification.
AS> there. I believe a man landed on the moon. If my next door neighbor
AS> tells me that HE landed on the moon, he better be able to back it up
AS> with witnesses.
DC> As above... You have conficting stories. They can't all be right.
But if you have twenty different records of an event, invariably some
remember things in different sequences, some have different emphasis,
some remember different details, whether we are talking about a murder
trial or the Resurrection.
DC> It's the independent evidence that provides the answer.
And it's keeping an open mind to the sources we DO have, also.
... The race is over. The rats won.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:06:00
EID:a238 209218c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04248C00
AS> But I'm not as sure you understand mine. I.E., the Gospel of John,
AS> written by an eyewitness...
DC> Which John, and where is the cooberation of any one of them actually
DC> being an eyewitness?
Irenaeus via Polycarp, a disciple of John. Paul mentioning John as one of
the apostles. The apostle John, although John the Elder was ALSO supposed
to be a disciple of JEsus, just one of the outer group, rather than the
inner twelve. AS eyewitness it really doesn't matter, but if it was John
the Apostle it would explain...which no other theory does...the pointed
LACK of reference to the sons of Zebedee, as opposed to all the other
major apostles...
AS> Dan, I have never said, to my rememberance, that it is up for you to
AS> disprove God. I have presented the best evidence I have, and
DC> I don't think that I have said that. At least I trust I didn't,
DC> as it is something that you know can't be done...
Yes. Anymore than I could ask you to prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist.
AS> although I think it makes a strong case, I don't pretend it is
AS> CONCLUSIVE evidence.
DC> There are other cases, equally as stong, that point the other way.
Well, obviously it is a matter of judgement, but I have never run across
one as strong.
AS> instance, the no faster-than-light thing has been shown to be a
DC> Even better, as there is no evidence that supports FTL.
AS> That's awfully tacky--or is that tachyon?--of you.
DC> I go with the flow, at 186,000 miles/sec. After all, it appears
DC> to be the law.
You tau'd it out, didn't you? Waiter! An Einstein of beer!
AS> ... The only thing faster than light is how fast Dan can make a pun...
DC> Hey! I resemble that remark! And, thank you... Besides, you are not
DC> a slouch yourself when you get into it!
(Innocent look.) Moi?
... Entropy always wins.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 18 Apr 96 08:01:00
EID:5f35 20924020
MSGID: 1:116/19 04249150
AS> Perhaps. But how often do you get twelve lunatics to agree on
AS> anything? To be insane is to be different.
DC> You never saw _One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest_, did you...
But of course. But that was a Christ-allegory, as my literature prof
showed again and again. (Whether it was Ken Kesey's point to make fun of
Christianity or the world to have it take place in a lunatic
asylum....you got me.)
... I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: B.I.B.L.E.
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:02:00
EID:ce70 20921840
MSGID: 1:116/19 042494AC
RB> I just wanted to post that again so Judith, Marilyn, Lynda,
RB> et al could give you the hell you so richly deserve.
AS> (Cue in the "Ride of the Valkyries" from Wagner)
DC> The imagery staggers the imagination! If I have to go in
DC> battle, I could not ask for better opponents...
Opponents? Surely you are going to battle on the side of Judith, Marilyn,
et al? Against Grigor-Scott...
I haven't seen him in a couple of days. Dare I hope...? Nyaaahhhh.
... Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Einstein
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:03:00
EID:454d 20921860
MSGID: 1:116/19 042498BC
MC>> Recently a pyramid was built in Memphis. It is similar to
MC>> the pyramid on the dollar-bill, except in place of the eye,
MC>> the top is blue. I understand that there is occult
MC>> symbolism there. Would anyone like to elaborate?
AS> Sure.
AS> No occult symbolism here.
AS> They liked the shape.
JH> "THEY" ? Ah hah! So, you admit that "they" are behind it!
THEY are behind EVERYTHING.
AS> (It is refreshing to see a letter from you that doesn't
AS> say, "zionist plot" but I know it's coming, it's coming...)
JH> Stooges. Zionist stooges.
Moe, Larry, and Shem?
... Would a Muslim vampire be scared of the Koran?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BADMOUTH
|Date: 18 Apr 96 08:05:00
EID:6681 209240a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04249C04
AS> If that were the case, he would have twitted YOU rather than Dan,
AS> Dave, etc. Could it not be simply because we agree on a few issues,
AS> while not agreeing on a few others? Charging sexual bias without
AS> something to back it up seems...especially since he would LIKE to
AS> talk to you, and has said so repeatedly, whereas he has twitted
AS> others such as Dan, Dave, etc....I must admit I see no sexism there
AS> (which is what your "cannot stomach a woman" charge amounts to).
MB> Why? He didn't twit Lynda, either, and she shows pretty much the
MB> same ballsiness as I do. He LIKE jousting with ballsey women; he
MB> just doesn't like ballsey women.
Maybe so, maybe no. Maybe he indulges in the same rules of debate with you
as he does with others. Neither making special concessions to you...or
observing any.
AS> Your privilege. Too bad any RESPONSE he will make to the
AS> above charges you will never see, since you twitted him. That
AS> way, you will never be able to know if your impression of him
AS> is right...or merely a midjudgement.
MB> No misjudgment about it.
MB> I said, for the first time in well over 40 years, that there was
MB> a believer that I could identify with -- and agree with on some
MB> issues.
Only one? Certainly you agree with Lynda and your "fundy friend"on some
issues.
MB> He said that Marilyn Burge is closed-minded.
And haven't you done much the same? Aren't you saying, repeatedly, that
HE is close-minded?
MB> I said that there was a believer that I could identify with -- and
MB> agree with on some issues.
MB> He said that my agreement was "pointless" (because it didn't go
MB> "all the way" to agreeing that dead men walk).
Just out of curiosity, do you have the original exchange archived? I
certainly don't archive every post, and there is no reason why you
should...it's just that I remember the exchange but not all the details.
MB> Now, just WHERE is my misjudgment, pray tell?
I don't know. And of course, if there are no further exchanges between
the two of you....neither will you.
Now, I have a question for you, Marilyn. You got on Mike's case about
not leaping towards strengthening and encouraging you when you said
Spong was a believer you can respect. Further question; if it were under
Spong's brand of Christianity, would you be interested in approaching
Christianity...i.e., going to Church, meeting other people who believed
that Jesus expressed divine truths (I think we can go so far as to say
that, can we not, from Spong's viewpoint?) and showed the essence that
God is love? Are you literally interested in that brand of Christianity
for yourself?
I'm not trying to "lure" you into church. I'm honestly curious. You
criticized Mike for not issuing such an invitation. Well, I read the
original statement too, and I merely read it as a slight approval of
Spong in comparison to other Christians. Was I wrong? Should I have
extended any sort of invitation or encouragement? I thought it would be
too inconsistent with your past positions, and might offend you, given
your outspoken disbelief, to do so. Was I wrong?
... Never anger a dragon for you are crunchy and go well with Brie.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BAD MOUTH
|Date: 18 Apr 96 04:07:00
EID:3389 209220e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0424A690
MB> Now YOU tell ME which is more likely: a perfectly human construct
MB> that is mundane in character, or a perfectly impossible construct
MB> that is supernatural in character.
AS> "Impossible"? Putting the cart before the horse, aren't you? Whether
AS> it is impossible for not...i.e., unable to happen in reality...is
AS> what this is about, is it not?
MB> Right. So DO IT, and we can put the topic to rest.
Okay; by "God" or "Creator" I mean the hypothetical entity who put the
laws of physics in place. In whom all laws of nature are ordered, and
maintained by His conscious will. That He chose such laws out of an
infinite number of variations, and can use any that do not entail logical
contradictions...i.e., round triangles, married bachelors, etc.
Do you accept that definition, for argument's sake?
If such an entity exists, the only thing impossible for it...or Him, if
you will excuse the traditional usage...is something logically
inconsistent. He is not OF NECESSITY bound by gravity, relativity, or any
of the restrictions that hamper us. And to such a being, what to us is
impossible or supernatural is perfectly possible, so long as it is not
logically inconsistent.
The ability to negate or evade the traditional constraints or laws
might be considered the hallmark of such a Being...how we would
distinguish from, say, an entity from within our own cosmos and one who
was its Creator.
So if one claims to be God or in touch with God, etc. the impossibility
of what that person is doing is not a factor against, but a factor FOR,
unlike other accounts of the impossible (Uri Geller and such)...so long
as those accounts are judged much the same way you would judge more
mundane accounts (i.e,, did those recounting the events have a lot to
gain, or did they instead come out the loser for the telling of it? Did
they receive monetary profit? Are there multiple witnesses of same? Are
there contemporary or near-contemporary writings which agree of disagree?
Seutonius and Tacitus both mentioned Nero's persecution of Christians.)
Whether the evidence is sufficient in this case is certainly the point
of many of my posts here, and there is a good deal of give-and-take
there. But if you a priori dismiss it as impossible or extremely
unlikely, you may never find the evidence that might be out there. Just
like the French Academy didn't look into evidences for meteorites,
because they thought the idea of stones falling from the sky was absurd.
The evidence WAS there...but it had to take someone open-minded enough to
look for it.
... Liberty means responsibilty. That is why most men dread it. ___ Blue
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 05:05:00
EID:311d 209228a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0424A9EC
MB> Correct. And the fact that Christianity makes these same,
MB> hackneyed claims is rather boring. Why should anybody give
MB> their claims any more credence than they give to the claims
MB> of the shamans in Central America or the NewAgers' claims
MB> that are similar or identical? Christianity is nothing but a
MB> retread of the same old superstitions that have been around
MB> since Man learned how to communicate with words.
AS> Boring?
MB> No, boring because they were old, hackneyed tales even before the
MB> Christians made claim to them.
Oh, the corn-king myths? But that's the really odd thing, Marilyn.
"Now, this brings us to the oddest thing about Christianity. In a sense
the view I have just described is actually true. From a certain point of
view Christ is 'the same sort of thing' as Adonis or Osiris (always, of
course, waiving the fact that they lived nobody knows where or when,
while He was executed by a Roman magistrate we know in a year which can
be roughly dated). And that is just the puzzle. If Christianity is a
religion of that kind why is the analogy of the seed falling into the
ground so seldom mentioned (twice only if I mistake not) in the New
Testament? Corn-religions are popular and respectable; if that is what
the first Christian teachers were putting acorss, what motive could they
have for concealing the fact? The impression they make is that of men who
simply didn't know how close they were to the corn-religions; men who
simply overlook the rich source of relevant imagery, and association
which they must have been on the verge of tapping at every moment. If you
say they suppressed it because they were Jews, that only raises the
puzzle in a new form. Why should the only religion of a 'dying God' which
has actually survived and risen to unexampled spiritual heights occur
precisely among those people to whom, and to whom almost alone, the whole
circle of ideas that belong to the 'dying God' was foreign? I myself, who
first seriously read the New Testament when I was imaginatively and
poetically all agog for the Death and Re-birth pattern, and anxious to
meet a corn-king, was chilled and puzzled by the almost total absence of
such ideas in the Christian documents." A little later, "The very thing
which the Nature-religions are all about seems to have really happened
once, but it happened in a circle where no trace of Nature-religion was
present. It is if you met the sea-serpent and found it disbelieved in
sea-serpents"--C.S. Lewis, MIRACLES.
AS> Long familiarity has perhaps dulled your sense of wonder on
AS> that scoare. I'm going to try to quote Dorothy L. Sayers, the
AS> renowned writer of both mystery stories, plays, and
AS> translator of Dante, from memory. "If the theme that God
AS> translated Himself into man---and then submitted Himself to
AS> man's law and endured a tortured death on the cross...and
AS> THEN rose from the DEAD...is called BORING...what in the
AS> world can we call EXCITING?"
MB> About as exciting as watching paint dry, once you've explored the
MB> various other mythologies and realize how...UNORIGINAL...(that's
MB> the word I'm looking for) the claim is. At least they could have
MB> come up with a new gimmick.
Well, placing it within historical times, rather than a vague mythic
never-never land, might be considered original, especially when you
compare it to the OTHERS...maybe you're looking at this the wrong way.
"Now, if there is a God, and if He descends to rise again, then we can
understand why Christ is at once like the Corn-King and so silent about
him. He is like the Corn-King because the Corn-King is a portrait of Him.
The similarity is not in the least unreal or accidental. For the Corn-King
is derived (through human imgination) from the facts of Nature, and the
facts of Nature from her Creator; the Death and Re-birth pattern is in her
because it was first in Him. On the other hand, elements of
Nature-religion are strikingly absent from the teaching of Jesus and from
the Judaic preperation which leup to it precisely because in them
Nature's Original is manifesting itself. In them you have from the very
outset got in behind Nature-religion and behind Nature herself. Where the
real God is present the shadows of that God do not appear; that which the
shadows resembled does. The Hebrews throughout their history were being
constantly headed off from the worship of Nature-gods; not because the
Nature-gods were in all respects unlike the God of Nature, but because,
at
best, they were merely like, and it is the destiny of that nation to be
turned away from likenesses to the thing itself." C.S. Lewis, same book.
Forgive me for quoting him, but in this case he expresses it more clearly
than I can.
AS> The reason we give their claims more credence is the same
AS> reason we take the death of Abraham Lincoln or Caesar more
AS> seriously than the death of Professor Moriarity or Little
AS> Nell...because we have multiple accounts, both by
AS> eyewitnesses and those who spoke with eyewitnesses, of the
AS> happenings, from within the lifetime of those who could
AS> refute it. You cannot say that of the miracles of Apollo or
AS> Kali.
MB> No, the REAL reason you take them more seriously than you do the
MB> r is simply that you WANT to.
Hmmm. I thought it a very cogent objection...and it seems you do not
address the point about eyewitness and second hand accounts within the
lifetime of those who can refute it...but why should I want to believe in
Jesus more than say, Apollo? Or Shiva? Buddha promises Enlightenment and
eventually release from the Wheel of Karma...yet I elect none of the
above, but stick to Jesus. Why?
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: BRANHAM
|Date: 18 Apr 96 09:03:00
EID:ebc5 20924860
MSGID: 1:116/19 0424ADA2
AS> You wanted a better idea of William Branham, Grigor-Scott's
AS> "prophet". This will give you some idea of Branham, JJ. In his own
AS> words:
SA> I just wanted to toss in my thanks for digging this stuff up and
SA> posting it. It certainly gives a good idea as to where Grigor-Scott
is
SA> coming from...;(
My pleasure. I just wish I could have found more about his theology
rather than his miracles.(And his stance on Jews...)
... I have NOT lost my mind, I left it over there, I think....
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 18 Apr 96 05:02:00
EID:4408 20922840
MSGID: 1:116/19 0424B2AC
AS> Huh??? I thought Jerico was the oldest city we knew of,
AS> archeologically. Or am I thinking of something else?
JM> According to most of the information I have, Jerusalem is the
JM> oldest continually occupied city in the middle east. Parts of
JM> it have been dated back 12 thousand years (with no "flood"
JM> evidence I might add), and while other settlements date back
JM> that far, many of them such as Har Megiddo or Dan haven't been
JM> occupied for thousands of years . Jericho (at the moment) is
JM> definitely ancient but not the oldest.
That's interesting. I didn't think Jerusalem was that old.
JM> shown that the walls which "came tumbling down" tumbled LONG
JM> before Joshua's day and in a manner which indicates an
JM> earthquake, which were common in that area. Jericho DID exist
JM> during Josh's day, but not on the same scale as it was and
JM> there were no fortifications of note at the time for him to
JM> have blown down. In short, it's just another story, embellished
JM> rather than told truthfully.
Although three thousand year old archeology is often spotty at best;
however, I don't doubt you; having never studied up on Jerico. Let me
look in my Jerusalem Bible...ah! "In the times of Joshua the place was
in ruins but could serve as a defensive position for the people of the
district (Bethel)."
JM> The story originates (like many Biblical stories) with an
JM> attempt to give "Joshua" more heroic proportions by attributing
JM> something which many people were already knew about to him.
JM> They KNEW the walls had fallen, because they could see the
JM> ancient remnants of it. They "knew" someone named Joshua
JM> existed too, because there were stories about him already even
JM> if they were the "Paul Bunyan" type. What was one more?
What, didn't you know? The walls were ATOMIZED....
Possibly, very possibly. But as an alternative theory...the ruins of the
walls with some jury-rigging---rocks piled on top, sandbags or the
10th-century BC equivelent--might have been used as a place of defense
by desperate people trying to keep an invading hoard of Israelites out.
Much as Greeks during World War II stored their explosives in the ruins
of the Parthenon. It might even been more precarious thereby....giving
the impression of strength, but not standing up to much real attacking.
Joshua, cannily spotting it out, might have used the horns in the same
way loud noises cause avalanches....just a thought, just a thought.
JM> This is not an uncommon device in ancient literature. Look at
JM> the Bible's treatment of Har Megiddo, which was to become
JM> "Armageddon". Six thousand years ago it was a bustling city and
JM> trading centre which had already stood for a thousand years,
JM> but it had been destroyed by the time the O.T. was being
JM> written. By the time "Armageddon" was adopted into Christian
JM> myths as well, the original city's importance was long
JM> forgotten, but the ruins remained as "evidence" that the story
JM> of Armageddon was "true" and to Fundamentalists it's still true
JM> today.
????? John---the story of Armageddon is usually regarded as a
PREDICTION, the site of the last Battle. We don't really look for ruins
of what Armageddon is famous for, because we think it hasn't happened
yet.
JM> Those of us who study these things know better, simply because
JM> of the archaeological work already done. We have the opportunity to
JM> "remember" things long forgotten in Biblical times.
A lot of Biblical scholars know, too. That's one reason I keep the
Jerusalem Bible....it doesn't fluff over known facts, like parts of
JEricho being in ruins at the time of Joshua.
... I am Porky Pig of Borg. Prepare to be assimi..asisim..to be a robot
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: 2 RE: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 09:06:00
EID:2d77 209248c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0424B72A
MB> If I remember correctly, my fundy friend would view this
MB> whole issue quite differently. He would say that God did not
MB> create each and every one of us. Our parents created us, just
MB> as their parents
MB> Do you agree with this? THIS is the thrust of the rest of this
MB> post. Do you agree that you weren't made by your god? Without this
MB> portion of the argument, I agree I've seen this argument in here
MB> many times. But, WITH this portion of the argument, I've never
MB> seen this argument. Did your god make you?
Well...yes and no. (Knew it was coming, didn't you?) He is the cause that
is the ultimate cause of the great chain of Causation, So all things
exist because of Him. I also think we are maintained in our Being by Him,
the same way that...ummm...a daydream is maintained by the daydreamer's
mind. We wouldn't exist, of course, if it were not for our parents'
actions, so they are responsible too.
It's like saying, who created Superman? Well, within the terms of the
"reality" the comic books portray, Jor-El and Lara did. But by the same
token, Jerry Siegal and Joe Shuster did. Neither answer is wrong, per
se. But without God, the parents wouldn't have been, either...indeed,
without His allowing it to, the parents would not have conceived but have
been barren.
MB> Also, my fundy friend's argument completely ignores the Isaiah
MB> text where god not only admits that he made evil, but out-and-out
MB> brags about it.
Actually, the word used is better translated "calamity" than evil.
Both the NIV and the Jerusalem Bible, more attuned to modern nuances of
speech, rather than King James', translate it so.
MB> I've asked my fundy friend to reconcile his beliefs with the
MB> Isaiah text and he always sidesteps the issue by asking me "why
MB> dwell on the negative?" A nice dodge, but hardly a reconciliation.
Isiah 45:7? You have to read it a LITTLE in context. 45:1 starts with,
"Thus says Yahweh to his anointed, to Cyrus whom He has taken by His
right hand to subdue nations before Him..." and then a long litany of
how God will aid Cyrus in many endeavours, "Though you do not know me,
I arm you, that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun,
that, apart from Me, all is nothing. I am Yahweh, unrivalled. I form
the light and create t