God Damned Fundies!
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 08:09:00
EID:805d 20914120
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C75A7A
AS> Well, you couldn't get more bureaucratic than the FORMER Soviet
AS> Union.
PS> One hopes not, for humanity's sake.
Back when the phone company was a monopoly, Lenny Bruce said, "What's so
hot about the Soviet Union? Just like one big phone company."
PS> True. And our continued involvement in these spots will not do much
PS> for our government. The scene in Vietnam was a simple civil war
PS> following their gaining independence from the French.
Yes; hopefully the fall of the Cold War will result in less such siding
with virtual dictatorships simply because the opposing side is backing
someone else.
AS> I hope it lasts and the wars get smaller and smaller, not bigger
AS> and bigger.
PS> Me too, but people are stupid enough that we're bound for another big
PS> war sometime soon.
I dunno; without the Cold War, it seems nationalism is fragmenting society
more and more. As long as there are no interlinking chains of alliances,
like that which started World War I, we may be okay.
... Smash forehead on keyboard to continue...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 17 Apr 96 08:00:00
EID:9583 20914000
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C763DA
AS> I dunno; I always liked fencing, although I wasn't fast enough to
AS> be good at it. And as Dorothy L. Sayers has her hero, Lord Peter
RH> Hey! Me too. I just missed third place in a statewide tournament
RH> while in college.
Congratulations! That means you could have cut me to ribbons. I was more
enthusiastic than fast.
RH> Now, of course, it does me no good to assume a fencing pose; I make
RH> a BETTER target sideways.
I too have to wage a constant battle of the bulge. And I think the
bulge is winning...
... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler was a Chris
|Date: 17 Apr 96 08:03:00
EID:6e7c 20914060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C770DC
FR> I was thinking of some C. S. Lewis, actually. Lewis wanted to claim
FR> that Nazi Germany was a war of Christians against the Nazis and yet
I'm
FR> told that when you evaluate his line of reasoning, one's left with the
FR> conclusion that he's actually talking about how it was Christians
FR> fighting Christians yet being descrived otherwise to escape political
FR> fallout.
Honestly curious here. Who told you that? I've read a lot of Lewis, and
although he sometimes talks about German barbarism during the war years,
I
don't really recall something that is close to what you are talking about.
If you can scrounge up a title, at least, it might help. I'm not saying
he
didn't or couldn't; I just don't recall it offhand, but he wrote many
books.
... If it isn't eternal, it's eternally out of date.--C.S. Lewis
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRIS
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:09:00
EID:6e7c 20910920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C77E4C
as> Not at all, as the source Elliot quoted...
as> AND WHICH YOU POINTEDLY IGNORED...proves.
FR> Not at all, as the sources _I_ provided came straight from Hitler's
FR> mouth and from the pens of a great many Christian church leaders at
the
FR> time.
So what? No one is disputing that Hitler had support both from some
Churches within Germany, or, to its shame, to a sort of "benign neglect"
from the Pope of the time. I lost my archived references in the fire, but
I posted here months ago...and I know Dan has it archived...about the
wartime Pope's blindness towards, and sometimes favoritism towards, the
Axis powers. (Considering that nine-tenths of the population of the
Vatican are Italian, I suppose we shouldn't be suprised. But the Pope
BEFORE him several times denounced the agressions by the fascist powers
in
no uncertain terms. It was, unfortunately, a classic case of the wrong
person in power at the wrong time, rather as if Chamberlain had SUCCEEDED
Churchill and had become England's wartime Prime Minister. (Those same
archives indicate that a very few bishops did condemn the taking of the
Jews in no uncertain terms, especially in occupied France, and a bishop
in
the United States drew some censure from the Vatican by criticizing the
fascist powers before World War II.) The Pope was officially neutral, but
there IS reason to believe that he at least heard the reports of the
deathcamps and did not shelter the Jews as he should have...he evidently
was much more scared of the communist "menace" than he was of the fascist
one. It is a shame and a blot on the Church.
But it evades the issue.
We are talking about Hitler's OWN faith here. No one disputes he was
raised a Roman Catholic. But his contemporaries observed he was no regular
attender of church services (i.e., the John Gunther quote you
disputed--and Gunther was a keen traveller renowned for his "Inside"
series of books in the 30s and 40s for excellently researched material
about the international scene.) and Elliot has repeatedly shown you a plan
driven up to replace the Christian churches with a "National Reich
Church".
Yes, Hitler repeatedly said he was a Christian. Well, Fred, he
repeatedly said he would honor the treaty he signed with Chamberlain,
too...until he announced it was "just a scrap of paper". Just like he said
he only wanted to make his national borders safe...and then invaded
France. Just like he said he would honor his accord with Stalin...and then
invaded Russia.
Are we seeing a PATTERN here?
I wouldn't necessarily trust ANY politician's statement of faith just on
that alone, since often it is a way of garnering votes and support. And
considering one of his main allies, Italy, is overwhelmingly Catholic, he
would alienate one of his main allies in times of war, of COURSE he wasn't
going to be STUPID enough to renounce it.
The question is, was Hitler consistent in this? Do his deeds and actions
proclaim his belief in Christianity? That's where the evidence of Gunther
(no regular church attendance), the evidence of Elliott (how he was
planning to eventually replace the churches with a "National Reich Church"
with "Mein Kampf" instead of the Bible, etc.)...are these consistent with
his claims to be a Christian, or is it rather consistent to his habitual
lying for political purposes? I submit the latter.
And for me, the crowning argument is that Hitler, though raised as a
Roman Catholic killed himself. Unless he was given last rites, that is an
automatic ticket to damnation, in Roman Catholic faith. Without confession
or last rites, there is no forgiveness. So, unless you think Hitler WANTED
to be tortured throughout eternity, and voluntarily did that in payment
for his sins (i.e., he WANTED damnation) then he showed...as clearly as
possible...his disbelief in the whole Catholic worldview.
dc> You have done one of the 3 unpardonable offences in HS
dc> in questioning Fredric on "Hitler wasn't an xian".
FR> I actually posted some fresh debunkings of the claim.
LOL!!! All quotes from Hitler. And for every one you produce, we could
find one saying he meant no harm to the Polish people, or would honor the
treaty with Chamberlain.
as> What, quotes from Hitler?
FR> How typical. Why not just admit that being a Christian does nothing
FR> to turn a murdering tyrany into a human being? Why not just admit that
FR> you have read the truth, don't like the truth, and filtered it out
FR> entirely?
As for the former--AND LISTEN, FRED!!!!--I have never, repeat NEVER said
that a Christian cannot be a murdering tyrant. I said REPEATEDLY you could
call Torquemada a Christian, or Vlad Tepes the Impaler. We can produce
quite a Rogue's Gallery of Christian "monsters", murdering tyrants. I have
NEVER said that being a Christian made you immune from such. As for the
LATTER---physician, HEAL THYSELF!!!! Because you are saying "IS NOT!" over
and over again to Elliot's evidence in a display of self-denial and
cowardice MOST disgusting. I am not rejecting Hitler as a Christian
because he was a murderer, indeed a mass murderer. I am rejecting Hitler,
because his actions show that his protestations of same are a consummate
lie, JUST as it shows he is a consummate liar. It is YOU who are dodging
the truth. I see it. JJ Hitt sees it. Marty Goldberg sees it.
FR> If you would like to be debunked yet once again, please let me know
FR> and I'll provide the quotes yet once again -- affording you another
FR> chance to ask rhetorically "what, quotes from Hitler?"
Go ahead. Do you want to be swamped with quotes of Hitler's OTHER
lies? Go ahead, Fred. I've got time.
FR> Hitler's actions show conclusively that he was a Christian as well --
FR> unless you care to deny the bloody history of Christianity as so many
FR> Christians do.
*Sigh* Fred, I will freely admit that much of Hitler's antisemitism was
echoed by no less a Christian than Martin Luther himself. I will freely
admit that many Christian kings and priests instituted antiSemitic purges
in the name of their religion, and such is, and will always be, a blot on
the side of Christianity. Similarly, Hitler's massacres have found echoes
in witch trials, in the Holy Wars of the Reformation, in the Crusades, in
the Inquisition. All freely conceded.
It is NOT his bloodyness, NOR his antisemitism, NOR his murderousness,
that disqualifies him as a Christian. It is merely...his actions. His
instituting plans for a "National Reich Church"
Let's quote Elliot again, shall we?
Despite all this, his actions show pretty conclusively he was not a
Christian. Most who offer evidence or reasons why Hitler wasn't a
Christian point to his genocidal tendencies as being in conflict with
Christian doctrine.
I don't buy this since Christian anti Semitism had a long and bloody
history (i.e., his actions were not unlike those of European Christians
historically). Rather, Hitler wasn't a Christian because his behavior
really was antithetical.
The nazis planned to destroy Christianity in Germany, and started taking
over churches to that end, forming the "National Reich Church."
Some of it's 30 point program - and what made Hitler a non-Christian:
"To exterminate irrevocably .... the strange and foreign Christian faiths
imported into Germany imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800"
Interesting. Which certainly doesn't follow the CATHOLIC pattern.
"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and
dissemination of the Bible in Germany"
(AL) Is it your contention that a good Christian tries to stop the
spreading of the Word? What of the Great Commission?
"The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes,
Bibles, and pictures of saints"
(Al) Hmmm. Would you call a movement that strips from alters crosses,
Bibles, and pictures of those it regards saints...as a Christian movement?
What quaint Orwellian doublethink.
"On the day of its (the National Reich Churches) foundation, the
Christian cross must be removed from all churches, cathedral, and chapels
and must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika"
(AL) You think maybe Hitler thought the cross on which Jesus died was a
swastika, Fred? Is this the action of someone who thinks himself
Christian?
Source: Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York:
Touchstone, 1959. p.240
(AL) A historian with impeccable credentials, right up there with Tolland
and others. It is the above that you are COWARDLY evading.
(End of Elliot's points.)
FR> Hitler _was_ a Christian, Al. It's time to get over it.
Fred. You are just looking more and more foolish to the echo as a whole,
with this obsession. It's time to get over it.
... Deja Moo - the feeling you've heard this bull before
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: APOLOGY
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:09:00
EID:e51d 20910920
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7990E
AS> Apology not accepted, for there's nothing to apologize FOR. We're
AS> friends, Mike. The only awkward thing is that Lynda and Marilyn are
AS> friends too. If I felt torn or pained, it's because I value you
AS> ALL--and that is an awkward position I created, not you.
MH> Well heck. Lynda won't let me apologize, you won't let me apologize.
MH> Now I've got this perfectly good apology all ready to go, and nobody
MH> will take it! :)
Try Marilyn. Of course, she won't READ it, but she wants one anyway...
... You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you freak.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: BADMOUTH
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:05fc 20914880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7A214
MH> As I read her message, I didn't take it that she was necessarily
MH> renouncing her Christian faith, but that she was renouncing any part
MH> in corporate expression of it, for lack of people sympathetic to her
MH> perspective. What I was actually trying to convey -- and obviously
MH> failed at -- was that such a break was not necessary, that her faith
MH> was genuine and efficacious, even if unorthodox. I was trying to
MH> encourage her to find a worshiping body where she fit in, not leave
MH> the fold.
MH> Obviously, no one got that out of what I said, so I failed miserably.
Welllll...I must admit I didn't get that from it. Hey, we all say things
one way, and have other people get something totally different over.
MH> That was a bad move. I was in particularly sour mood that night, and
MH> fed up with the less edifying posts I was consistently getting from
a
MH> handful of people. I should have let it slide, though.
It's funny, though...I go in regular religious echoes, and they seem so
dull, now. Holy Smoke is silly, but DULL it ain't!
AS> I'm trying as hard as I can not to lose
AS> EITHER you or Lynda (or for that matter, Marilyn) as friends, and
AS> trying not to lie. And I may end up losing you all.
MH> You have no worries on that score from me, and I suspect from Lynda
MH> as well. :) About Marilyn I can't say.
I'm pretty sure of Marilyn. But I don't want to aggravate her mood swings,
either.
AS> The last thing I want to say is this: when Paul said, "You were not
AS> baptized in Paul's name, etc.etc. but in Christ's name"...similarly,
AS> we are not followers of Spong or Mack, or Lewis or Habermaas. We are
AS> followers of JESUS, and must never forget that, and not let lesser
AS> issues divide us.
MH> True, and a good point to make.
Thanks.
... I don't have an attitude problem--it's supposed to be like this
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: BRANHAM
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:03:00
EID:252d 20914860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7A840
AS> "But finally," I said, "we will overcome and will be one of the winner
AS> in the war between us and Germany.
SA> Sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking to me.
Well, this is a collection of sermons, he may or may NOT have predicted
that. Who's to know.
AS> got the car right now, It's already invented. They've got the car. And
AS> I said then, "Oh, how science will progress in that day!"
SA> Big deal. Futurists were predicting those sorts of things in the 20s.
Riiight. But of course, how much were they believed by the general
population.
AS> But there'll be a powerful woman! Now, remember! This is on tape, too.
AS> A powerful woman, great woman, she will either be President, or it'll
AS> be a woman representing the Catholic Church (which I think it is) will
AS> take over here someday and she will rule this country. This nation is
a
AS> woman's nation. Flag was made by a woman, it's number thirteen. She
AS> started out, thirteen stars, thirteen stripes, thirteen colonies.
AS> Everything's thirteen, thirteen, thirteen, right on down. Thirteen
AS> stars on her silver dollar now. Everything's a thirteen. It's number
AS> thirteen, and appears in the chapter of Revelation. Completely
AS> thirteen! Everything is "woman, woman, woman, woman, woman," right on
AS> down. And she took over all the offices. She's took over Hollywood.
AS> She's took over everything there is, equal rights with the man, votes
AS> with the man, cusses like a man, drinks like a man, anything else. And
AS> just bait for the Catholic Church, for the worship of a woman! They're
AS> already worshipping a woman, anyhow."
SA> Typical. Got a problem? Blame it on women. Now I know where Germy
SA> gets his philosophies.
Well, actually, this is Grigor-Scott's Prophet. You can now see why
Grigor-Scott's so warped. BTW, I saw the post to "ALL" where you blamed
this sort of thinking on Christian mindsets. Speaking from a Christian
mindset...
We're not too thrilled with him, either.
... **** VirusScan - "Windows found: Remove it? (Y/y)"?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: PERSPECTIVES
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:e0f2 20914880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7B0EC
AS> aliens. But if one brings back a little device that shoots out a
AS> death ray, I MIGHT take him a little more seriously...
MM> However, one of them may claim they've had a alien encounter and the
MM> other may call it a religious experience and a third may swear it was
a
MM> vision quest or a prophetic dream.
Don't you think the opinion of the person it happened to should take
precedence? After all that is who it happened to...
AS> (Marilyn HATES that analogy.)
MM> Hmmm is Marilyn the one sent to bed at 8? I agree that diety must
MM> approach us in a form we can deal with and in a attitude that we can
MM> comprehend.... different strokes for different folks.
No, Marilyn Burge on this echo. Although in context, I can understand why
you would think so. I have three boys. I always wanted a little girl, but
after three tries...and they say the male really determines the sex...I
get the feeling Nature is trying to tell me something.
... Nothing improves your driving like a police car following you.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler: Christian
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:c814 20914880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7C456
dr> Historians, of course, know otherwise: Hitler was
dr> a Christian. He stated so many, many times.
FR> Not to mention the fact that we have documents from official Christian
FR> church masters who were in absolute agreement with what Adolf Hitler
FR> was doing.
Of course, you are absolutely right in that. But that is not the same as
not recognizing the lying nature of the opportunistic Hitler. To say that
a good segment of the Christian church supported Hitler is undoubtedly
true. Just as a good segment condemned his actions. Neither explains the
30-point program that Hitler was intending to institute to take out Bible
and crosses from the "National Reich church", and to purge the "strange
and foreign" religion of Christianity, nor his lack of going to church
with any regularity as an adult, nor his suicide without last rites
extended.
FR> I expect fundies to deny the truth. Elliott would appear to be a
FR> heathen, however.
An honest one, as many are. I hope I can number you among them. But the
way you keep evading in all honesty makes me wonder.
... That statement is true -> <- That statement is false
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: DON'T READ THE BIBLE!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:05:00
EID:04e4 209148a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7D266
FR> can't remain a believer. Anyone who learns scientific
FR> method and critical thinking and _employ_ both can't be a
FR> believer in the mythologies.
as> I can keep this up as long as you can, Fred.
FR> And continue to be debunked every time.
Where? I must have missed that post. Oh, you mean THIS...?
as> Roger Bacon, who first formulated the idea of observation
as> and experimentation against theory, i.e., the scientific
as> theory in its essence, was a Christian monk.
Your reading comprehension would appear to be mostly faulty, Al.
The
FR> fact that I "underscored" the word "employ" above doesn't seem to have
FR> registered in your brain. Perhaps it couldn't make it past your
FR> preconceptions?
Sure it did. That's why I mentioned not only Bacon, but Copernicus,
Newton, Mendel, and Lemaitre. But...dear me...you seem to have "forgotten"
to mention THEM.
FR> Would you like for me to explain for you in simpler terms?
Please do, Fred. While you're at it, why don't you explain to me why
you EVADED mentioning the OTHERS I mentioned...such as Copernicus, a canon
of the Church, Sir Isaac Newton, who wrote long defenses of the Christian
faith, Gregor Mendel, a Christian monk who formulated the basic laws of
inheritance in genetics, and Lemaitre, who formulated the Big Bang
theory...and a Roman Catholic priest. Are you saying they didn't employ
scientific reasoning? That's odd. Much of your science DERIVES from them.
Or what ARE you saying, Fred? PLEASE use simple terms...I would hate for
you to misstate yourself.
Fred, I would really like to respect you, as I do your brother, or Dan
Ceppa, or Marty Goldberg, or Elliot, or Dr. Leipzig, or Sue or Marilyn or
JJ or David or Preston or Katherine...and many other non-Christians on
this echo. But it is tactics like THIS that make me wonder.
I would hate for "doing a Fred" to become proverbial for evading the
question, as "do a Hector" became proverbial for cutting-and-pasting
answers.
I would really like to like you, Fred. Actually answering the points is
a little more work, but trust me, rewarding in the end.
... Integrity is like virginity: you only lose it once.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:06:00
EID:9f21 209148c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7DAB8
FR> We already have. It's called "The Religious Reich."
as> If you would read more of the posts, you would find my opinion
as> of Reed and his group is not substantially higher than yours.
FR> Except that employing the label "reich" denotes a connection to a
FR> certain "third reich" we all know and... love. Are you, at least,
Sure. Fascism should be stamped out, whether under a religious guise or
not. Do you read Heinlein? Do you remember Nehemiah Scudder?
FR> willing to admit that Adolf Hitler was in fact a Christian as he stated
FR> and as the the majority churches of Nazi Germany agreed?
I'd love to, Fred, if it were the case, as I freely concede such maniacs
as Torquemada or Vlad Tepes or the Russian boyars who hunted peasants and
Jews for sport were. It's not his bloodiness that excludes it, but it is
his own actions, or lack of them, that shows it--the 30 point plan to
purge the "National Reich Church" of vestiges of Christianity as mentioned
by noted historian Shirer, the lack of chuchgoing mentioned by
international affairs expert John Gunther, and his final act of suicide,
without last rites given, which in the Catholic worldview in which he was
raised, would condemn him to eternal damnation. Certainly many of his
followers were...perhaps Mussolini was (notice he did not commit suicide)
and it is perfectly true that the majority of churches within Nazi
Germany...and for that matter, Italy (including, I am sad to say, the
wartime Pope) and maybe half those in France thought. But then...
Most of the world thought Hitler would honor Chamberlain's "peace in our
time!" also. I doubt if even HITLER knew what he believed...he went from
publicly avowing Christianity to privately consulting horoscopes, and
claiming in the music of Wagner's Ring trilogy, about the Teutonic gods,
he caught "echoes of another world". But I certainly cannot think he was
a
committed Christian in his own mind, no matter how much he lied, for
political favor, especially since Italy (with the Vatican inside it) was
his staunchest ally...
... I'm sorry, I didn't intend to confuse you with facts. ___ Blue Wave/QW
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian.
|Date: 17 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:fa92 20914880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7F2A0
FR> Which is exactly true and which evidences the fact that he was a
FR> Christian. He was doing things that Christian "leaders" had done for
a
FR> dozen centuries before him -- no difference. To demand that Hitler
FR> wasn't a Christian is to demand that all the Christians who came before
FR> him weren't Christians either.
FR> Are you willing to defend that position?
That's ridiculous, Fred. That's like saying if the mostly nontheist
revoltunaries in the French Revolution instituted a purge and a Terror,
than every such revolution that consumes and kills the old guard is
similarly nontheist. We freely admit that for a dozen centuries Christian
leaders have been guilty of quite horrible examples of antiSemitism and
massacre. But that doesn't make Hitler a Christian, any more than us both
reading, say, Larry Niven, makes OUR theism or nontheism the same. One
does not equate the other.
ed> According to John Gunther in his book, INSIDE EUROPE,1938 ed.,:
ed> *He was born and brought up a Roman Catholic. But lost faith
ed> early and attends no religious services of any kind.
FR> That's contrary to what Hitler said and to what Christian churches
FR> were saying and doing at the time. Contrary to John Gunther, Adolf
FR> Hitler remained a Christian until his suicide.
If you would think about how that suicide so clearly shows he does not
believe in the Roman Catholic faith he was brought up in...
FR> Your source has got many things wrong. I can't help but wonder
FR> whether your source is trying to deny the fact that Hitler was a
FR> Christain due to the mistaken belief that being a Christian somehow
FR> stops someone from being a murdering tyrant and a despot.
That IS a mistaken belief. There have been many Christian murdering
tyrants and despots. But we cannot hold Hitler among them, by his own
actions. And John Gunther was a well known expert on international affairs
in the thirties and forties.
FR> He's meeting with Christian churches, talking with Christian
FR> leaders... That hardly sounds like he's fighting a religious war now
FR> does it?
Red herring and avoiding the question. No one here claims that Hitler was
fighting a religious war, save in the sense that he was wiping out Jews
(which, judging by what qualifies one as a Jew under Hitler's Germany, is
more a racial than a religious stance.) although it appears from the
30-point program Shirer mentions, he would have eventually moved on the
churches. But at the time, the goodwill of Italy and the Vatican were too
important...politically.
ed> Gunther contends that Hitler biggest priority was the unification of
ed> Germany, there had to be a removal from the Reich any competition which
ed> was international like the Vatican and Judaism.
FR> And he used the tools that Christianity provided to do it with. No
FR> argument here. The lesson to be learned from the bloody history of
FR> Christianity is that one may use deity beliefs as a weapon of mass
FR> destruction against innocent people for the unification and
FR> consolidation of power and control.
FR> I don't dispute this fact. It evidences myself correct.
Ahhh...you don't dispute that he was removing from the Reich any
competition which was international like the Vatican. THANK you, Fred. But
your own statement than, evidences yourself INCORRECT, right?
ed> Some of Hitler's followers turned to Paganism.
ed> They found the Norse myths to their liking.
FR> "They [Nazis] fiercely rejected accusations that they were
FR> atheists. Himmler declared that atheism would not be tolerated in
FR> the ranks of the SS" (Paul Johnson's "A History of Christianity,"
FR> p. 486).
Surely YOU, of all people, are not equating paganism with atheism? See
what Ed said..."Some of Hitler's followers turned to Paganism..." Then see
what you quote, "They (Nazis) fiercely rejected accusations they were
atheists." I think you owe an apology to Katherine Wintersnight and Sean
Mccollough on that score, don't you? Paganism is not the same as atheism.
REALLY, Fred, you are making mistakes I would expect from the most fundy
of the fundy!
FR> Looks like your source got that one wrong as well.
FR> -=-
FR> If you would like some _secular_ sources which offer the truth about
FR> Adolf Hitler, please let me know and I'll type them up for you.
HE QUOTED ONE, FRED. Look up John Gunther's INSIDE EUROPE. While you're
at it, look at Shirer's RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH. Neither of which
are affiliated with a church.
... Bookstores: The financial black hole of my wallet.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: I find it amazing
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:03:00
EID:24fa 20910060
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C7F980
FR> I'm finding it amazing that so many Christians are unwilling to
FR> accept the fact that Adolf Hitler was a Christian. I expected fundies
FR> to deny the truth and yet even Al is pretending otherwise. The
I suppose I should be complimented by "EVEN AL"....
FR> phenomena continues year after year, in fact, as Christians are
FR> exposed, caught, or reported on television.
FR> I can't help but wonder what these people want to pretend are "TRUE
FR> Christians." It would appear to be that a "TRUE Christian" is the
FR> person making the claim and that everyone else is a "FALSE Christian."
*Sigh* If murder and despotry and terror disqualified one from being a
Christians, I would have to say Torquemada, the Borgia Popes, Vlad Tepes,
etc. were all not "true Christians". I do not. Many Christians have
misread the Scriptures and used them to justify horrible actions, and no
one with a grain of sense pretends otherwise. But you STILL have not
answered Elliot about Shirer's description of Hitler's "30-point plan" for
making a "National Reich Church" which would purge the churches of
crosses, Bibles, and the "strange and foreign" beliefs that came to
Germany in "800 AD"---i.e., the Christian faith. Until you can answer
that...show that Shirer was mistaken or wrong (good luck! He is a very
well respected historian) than your claim is merely wishful thinking on
your part.
The only way to get yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself
is to say something like, "Well, even if Hitler may not have been a
Christian, he absorbed much of the venom he spouted from Christian
sources, like Martin Luther's anti-semitism and the religious intolerance
of the Holy Wars." THAT I would not dispute a bit. I am offering that to
you as a way to save face. I suggest you take it.
... Intolerance must not be tolerated
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: NBC's Airing of "The Myst
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:08:00
EID:7284 20910100
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C80614
BW> "The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a
BW> Great Designer; perhaps some species are destroyed when the
AS> COULD. Not IS. Because if you keep on reading...
BW> Designer becomes dissatisfied with them, and new experiments
BW> are attempted on an improved design. But this notion is a
AS> BUT...please note, Billy.
BW> little disconcerting. Each plant and animal is exquistely made;
BW> should not a supremely competent Designer have been able to
BW> make the intended variety from the start? The fossil record
AS> Exactly. If God were personally directing the course of nature,
AS> why would there be extinctions? Surely He would get it right
AS> the first time.
BW> Says who? Have you ever met any intelligent beings whomever got
BW> things right the first time? Not even the God in the Bible was ever
BW> this good. Besides some Bible experts explains that it was God's
BW> Sons (Angels) who had taken part in the creations. Do I buy the
BW> Bible's story? Well I know it came from somewhere, exact source
BW> remains unknown.
Billy, the idea that angels or demiurges are actually behind Creation,
hence the flawed state of the world is an old one...older than
Christianity, harking back to Plato, I believe. It is in essence a Gnostic
idea, which John explicitedly warns believers against...if you are a
believer. It led to such labyrythine ways of thinking as the many and
confusing Gnostic demiurges, to some of the Kabbalah, and can be seen
today in an even more confused form in Mormonism, where we all have the
capacity to become demiurges.
AS> Now, if He set the stage of a gradual evolution, and made that
AS> part of the process, that would more fit what we see...or there
AS> could be no Creator at all. Either is possible. But to deny
AS> evolution altogether is folly.
BW> implies trial and error, an inability to anticipate the future,
BW> features inconsistent with an efficient Great Designer
BW> (although not with a Designer of a more remote and indirect
BW> temperament)." - Carl Sagan
AS> Right. Sagan is conceding the possibility of a more remote and
AS> indirect God, who allows evolution to develop the lifeforms on
AS> Earth. That is what I personally believe (although that doesn't
AS> make Him disinterested.) By the same token, that does not mean
AS> Sagan seriously believes in the possibility, just that he will
AS> acknowledge that it is not precluded by what we know. Only
AS> someone who has read a very little of Sagan would EVER go away
AS> with an impression that Sagan believed in a Diety.
BW> Nor have I ever claimed otherwise. Although I have seen signs from
BW> Carl Sagan that he doesn't necessarily believe we are alone either.
BW> Sagan also admits, lifeforms could well be something other than
BW> carbon based.
Undoubtedly. Sagan is one of the prime proponents of the theory that we
are NOT alone, as opposed to Tipler, who believes we are. So I may take
it
that you are agreeing with me that Sagan cannot really give one an
impression that Sagan believes in a diety? That is what I take the "nor
have I ever claimed otherwise".
AS> All his writings (for instance, the introducion to BRIEF
AS> HISTORY OF TIME) points to the exact opposite view...as does
AS> his SHADOWS OF FORGOTTEN ANCESTORS. Being the cautious
AS> scientist he is (and bearing in mind that churchgoers buy books
AS> too ) he doesn't rule out the possibility. But that's a long
AS> way from saying that is what he believes happened.
BW> Nothing usual here.
Nothing unusual here, perhaps?
AS> And quite frankly, taking such a statement out of
AS> context...although you were honest enough to include enough to
AS> debunk the idea...seems a tad dishonest.
BW> I've taken nothing out of context. I was only showing the other side
BW> of the coin. Something most humans forget to do.
True, but there are some lines of reasoning you can quote...Johnson's
DARWIN ON TRIAL comes to mind...which would give a truer indication of
where the thinker gives any sort of justified doubts about evolution. I
don't agree with Johnson...given the enormous vistas of time and the
undoubted fact of mutation, it would take a miracle to KEEP evolution from
taking place.
AS> I'm a believer. I have claimed some scientists who believed in
AS> diety, with evidence. But I'm not going to claim someone as a
AS> theist who is not. That is dishonest.
BW> Nor am I doing so. All I ever said is that believing in evolution
BW> doesn't necessarily mean there was no intelligence involved. Yet
BW> those who try to discredit me, mislabel me as some sort of
BW> fundamentalist. Which is very far from the truth.
So you do not doubt the fact of evolution, just think there might be a
controlling intelligence influencing it? On that more limited scale, I
might agree, although I think the intelligence rarely or ever has to
intervene, until some beings get evolved enough to be at the stage where
communciation and human-level sentience is involved.
AS> Just because Hector is gone, don't think you can get away with
AS> it, Billy. You were one of the few things I agreed with Hector
AS> on.
BW> I bet you don't know me very well. Btw, where did Hector go?
True, I only saw a few posts of yours. Hector's feed problems, I believe,
have dissauded him from joining us.
AS> Tell the truth and shame the devil, Billy. He is very MUCH
AS> saying that either God is distant and remote enough not to
AS> control evolution directly; or there is no God. He is
AS> NOT...repeat, NOT...saying evolution didn't happen, unless God
AS> is a very muddled, bumbling God.
BW> I believe evolution is natural for lifeforms, whether here by
BW> accident or by some intelligent means. Why? Because we see evolution
BW> clearly by our own creations. Why would anyone believe otherwise?
Excellent! So we may take evolution as a given.
... Even if you ban all books, you can't ban the mind.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:04:00
EID:285a 20910080
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C811F4
AS> But how can you trust it? If reason is merely the result of the
AS> blind forces of nature...i.e., your brain is the product of
AS> atoms...how do you know whole areas of cognition are not able to be
AS> perceived by you? How do
RH> But there are such. You are only marginally aware of all that is going
RH> on in your brain.
Especially before my morning Coke or coffee...
AS> you know that the grooves of your thinking are merely the way your
AS> brain is constructed, and that no use of reason can perceive true
RH> This is largely true too. Most of life is stimulus-response reaction.
RH> What you think of as logic is after-the-fact rationalization.
Well, yes, but true reasoning or knowledge is distinct. For instance,
wishful thinking, prejudice, and madness are all stimuli which lead to
responses. But all of them are incorrect or unfounded. If someone says to
me "you believe the universe is a special creation of an Intelligence
because you are a Christian" I hasten to marshall arguments in my behalf,
because I don't feel that being raised in the Christian church is
sufficient reason for arguing that the Universe MUST be so. I feel I must
justify my reasoning. Similarly, if one says, "The Resurrection is a hoax"
one usually doesn't walk away and think his opinion is of no more
consequential than their taste in colors or ice cream...they are asked to
explain their REASONING behind it. We put our faith in reason; we try to
rise above our prejudices and comfort and loyalties. If all is stimulus
and response, there is no reason for that, nor any reason to appeal to
logic or reason to back up our arguments.
AS> logic. BUT if reason is something that is not dependent on matter
AS> for its essense, although it is for its transmission...then we can
AS> depend on our reason.
RH> Nonsense. You just said that reason can exist apart from a reasoner
RH> and because of that, it can be trusted. The first is unevidenced and
RH> the second is both non sequiter and absurd. Tsk tsk.
Is it?
The act of knowing, if it were totally explicable from other sources,
would cease to be knowledge; just as (to use a sensory parallel) the
ringing in my ears ceases to be what we mean by "hearing" when it can be
explained by something other than a noise in the outside world---such as
the ringing in the ears sometimes experienced when one has the cold or the
flu.
But although we sometimes gain knowledge by observation and inference,
true logic is something a little different. Men MIGHT be trained, if it
was just stimulus-response, to expect fire everytime they saw smoke. But
the assumption that things which have been cojoined in the past will
always be cojoined in the future is the guiding principle of instinctive
animal behavior, not rational behavior. Reason comes in precisely where
you make the inference and go on to attempt the discovery of the
connection between, say, smoke and fire. THAT is not a matter of
stimulus-response, but of cold reasoning. Some things, further, we know
some things purely of logic. My belief that things that are equal tothe
same thing are equal to one another is not at all based on the fact that
I have never caught them behaving otherwise.
... "Prejudice is the reason of fools." -- Voltaire (1694-1778) French
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: VERY MUCH MYTHOLOGY!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 00:04:00
EID:94c7 20910080
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C81A50
AS> BTW, do you know what the term "anthropic principle" means?
AS> You will.
GF> No.
The anthropic principle was first voiced by Brandon Carter in the
seventies, and has been the subject of numerous books, such as Tipler and
Barrow's THE COSMIC ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE or Martin Rees' Cosmic
Coincidences (Rees teaches in the same faculty as Steve Hawking.). It is
mentioned in passing in BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME, and you can find it in its
index. The idea is this; they now realize that if they altered some of the
basic constants of the universe by a very small degree, a lifeless...or
at
least, a universe with no INTELLIGENT life...would result. Anywhere. Much
depends on how fine-tuned the constants are in the universe, and it
appears that we do not, by any stretch of the imagination, live in a
"generic" universe.
An example:
NEUTRON-PROTON MASS DIFFERENTIAL
Number fourteen in the series of 'coincidences' that allow us to exist.
From George Greenstein's THE SYMBIOTIC UNIVERSE.
"The second difference is that the neutron outweighs the proton. This
fact is somewhat suprising, for as explained in Chapter 11 both the
neutron and proton are themselves constructed of yet smaller particles
known as quarks; there seems no fundamental reason why the neutron should
be the more massive of the two. Furthermore, the mass difference is quite
small, a mere tenth of a percent. One might think it would make no
difference. But it does make a difference. Indeed, it is crucial.
"In one hand I hold a stone, in the other a hammer; whacking the hammer
against the stone I break it into two parts. The splitting apart of the
neutron is analogous to the splitting of the stone, and it is important
to
note that this stone cannot be broken into pieces BIGGER THAN IT IS.
Similarly, the neutron is free to decay only because it is heavier than
the proton. Indeed, it outweighs the proton and electron combined.
"But what if it did not? What if the proton outweighed the neutron?
"Within both atomic nuclei and neutron stars few differences would
result. But for particles in isolation the situation would be reversed.
Now it would be neutrons that were stable and protons that decayed--they
would decay into neutrons. And isiolated portons are quite common in
nature. They are found in hydrogen. The atomic nucleus of hydrogen
consists of nothign more or less than a single proton. That element
therefore depends on its existence on the stability of the proton, and
this in turn depends on that microscopic difference between the proton and
the neutron. If the difference were reversed, hydrogen would not exist.
"Chapter 4 discusses the properties of water, and their relevance to the
requirements of life. That discussion left something out, though; The
stuff has to exist. But water is H2O. If hydrogen did not exist, water
would not exist.
"Speculations have occasionally been made that some form of
silicon-based life form might be possible. It is an open question whether
these speculations are to be taken seriously, and if so whether such
beings could get along without water. Let us grant both for the sake of
argument. Even so, however, the bsence of hydrogen would prove fatal to
such hypothetical beings, for whatever the details of their biochemical
organization, they still would require an outside source of energy--a sun.
BUT THE SUN IS MADE OF HYDROGEN.
If at this very moment some mysterious process were to increase the
proton mass relative to that of the neutron, little would happen for
several minutes. But after that interval of time the protons in the Sun
would commence decaying. Soon the Sun would be made not of hydrogen but
of
neutrons. And what would such an object be like?
"The central difference between such a beast and the true Sun lies in
the insulating properties of the material of which they are composed. In
this regard the Sun is much like a house. In constructing a house it pays
to install good insulatio, for if one does not the building is unprotected
against the cold of winter. The Sun, likewise, floats in the absolute zero
of space; and the heat it loses must be replenished. But that reheating
takes energy, fuel; and there is only so much of it available to the star.
Ultimately the Sun is going to run out of fuel. The poorer the insulation,
the more rapidly will this occur....andthe more rapidly will the light of
the world go out.
"Neutrons, it develops, make terrible insulation--hundreds of millions
of times poorer than the material of which the Sun is actually composed.
If the protons in it were to decay, the Sun would commence burning fuel
at
a rate so enormous that within a century it would be entirely exhausted.
And after that time the Sun would go out.
"Not could the Sun have survived more than a century after its
formation. But one hundred years is not long enough for life to develop,
let alone for evolution to proceed. In biological terms it is the merest
flicker of an eyelash. Furthermore the Sun is not alone in this regard,
for most stars in the sky are composed of hydrogen. none could have
existed beyond that microscopic interval of time had the proton
outweighed the neutron. Of course, certain other stars, the red giants
such as Capella, Pollux, and Aldebaran, are composed not of hydrogen but
of helium. They would hardly be affected in such a circumstance. But while
red giants play a vital role in preparing the cosmos for life they do not
make suitable seats for it, and for the same reason; They do not survive
long enough. The same is true of every other stellar type. Only stars like
the Sun, those composed of hydrogen, maintain themselves for the bast
intervals of time required for the full developement of life about them;
and these in turn exist only by virtue of that tiny offset--one tenth of
one percent--between the masses of two subatomic particles."
Barrow and Tipler, in the COSMIC ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE, were even more
pessimistic.
"The other part of the nucleosynthesis coincidence arises because the
neutron-proton mass difference is -mE(nuetron is a proton minus the mass
of an electron, roughly.) In fact, this is only part of a very delicate
coincidence that is crucial for the existence of a life-supporting
enviornment in the present day Universe. We find that
m(Proton) -m (electron)=1.293 MeV -0.511 MeV = 0.782 MeV
Thus, since m(n)(mass of neutron) and m(p) (mass of proton) are of order
1
GeV the relation is a one part in a thousand coincidence. IF instead we
found that m(P) -m(E) < or ~ 0 then we would not find the beta decay n->p
+ e- + v(e), occuring naturally. Rather, we would find the decay p + e-
->
n + v(e). That would lead to a World in which stars and planets could not
exist. These structures, if formed, would decay into netrons by pe-
annihilation. Without electrostatic forces to support them, solid bodies
would collapse rapidly into neutron stars (if smaller than about 3 solar
masses) or black holes. Thus, the coincidence that allows protons to
partake in nuclear reactions in the early universe alos prevents them
decaying by weak interactions. It also, of course, prevents the 75% of the
Universe which emerges from nucleosynthesis in the form of protons from
simply decaying away into neutrons. If that wer eto happen no atoms would
ever have formed and we would not be here to know it."
You can find fourteen more "coincidences" off my web page at http://www.
nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/index.html, and Martin Rees once did a much
larger list for Nature. Of course, a Creator isn't the ONLY possible
explanation, but I think I can back up with logic that it is the most
logical one, under Occam's Razor.
AS> (PS. You have now met such a believer. And there are many more of
AS> us than the stereotype would have it.)
GF> I just don't see how you can believe in it given the world as we know
GF> it today. The tall tales, the contradictions. Let alone that there's
GF> like so many tens of thousands of religions.
I base my belief, or at least my arguments for Christianity, on three
things...the anthropic "coincidences" mentioned before, of which the above
is just one sample of many, altruism above and beyond that which can be
explained by strict societal or genetic necessity, and the lack of a
suitable explanation of what made the disciples undergo torture (all of
them were flogged by the Sanhedrin), death (James and Stephen, certainly)
and threat of death (again, the Sanhedrin originally threatened them with
death until Gamaliel talked them out of it) and imprisonment, as shown by
what happened to Peter and John...were they ALL lunatics? But to be a
lunatic is to be singular. I could believe one of them had a vision of a
resurrected Christ, but ALL of them? Were they liars? How many con men
would willingly be flogged for something they lied about, especially since
they had nothing to gain, and everything to lose...the censure of their
country's rulers...or were they telling the truth?
... I plead temporary sanity.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Which Christian goes next
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:02:00
EID:983c 20910840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C823E2
FR> I wonder if you'll start to demand that Jim Jones also wasn't a
FR> Christian. Who's next on your list of Christians you'll deny?
FR> Torquemada? David Duke?
Only the ones I have EVIDENCE weren't Christian, Fred. Torquemada I
explictly have said is Christian, to you many times, and I believe I have
mentioned Vlad Tepes. David Duke and his fellow travellers, the KKK, are
also Christian, unfortunately. Jim Jones...I must admit to a slight
qualification there. I consider him Christian-DERIVED, but that some of
his teachings go far beyond the NT, enough to practically qualify it as
another religion, as Christianity and Islam derived from Judaism. But if
you would rather consider him Christian (and certainly he shares many of
the same imagery) I have no objection.
... How fortunate for rulers, that men do not think. -Adolph Hitler
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Zionist-Hate Media
|Date: 17 Apr 96 01:02:00
EID:df83 20910840
MSGID: 1:116/19 04C829FA
MC>1st. John says that anyone who does not accept him as Lord is the
MC>Anti- Christ, and not to sit-down with them.
JJ> There *is* no "Jew media," and bigotry like this only
JJ> disgraces the name of Christ.
AS> It disgraces the sheer humanity of us all, also.
PS> Yes and no. For it to fully do so, "Mark" would have to be human.
Does only his FATHER'S side count? (I can think of no sneakier way to
call someone an SOB.)
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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SEEN-BY: 116/19 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Zionist-Neo-Nazis
|Date: 17 Apr 96 21:55:00
EID:a026 2091aee0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175a0f4
Gemantria: (((Mimi*[X1])2^Bill)04-17-96 14:37[X2]) =Zionist-Neo-Nazis[X3]
MM> Hello Bill!
MM> and Mark Craig too - 'he' is probably waiting with, if not bated,
MM> then definitely with bad breath.
MM> Bill Arnold wrote in a message to All:
BA> Pray for the Gaza ghetto, and the victims of the holocaust
BA> in Lebanon. ---
MM> Just did! "Oh, thou Lord of Hosts... Please ask your alter ego,
MM> Allah, to create a new and fresh planet named Hezbollah, and
MM> send your chariots of fire for all restless souls in Gaza and
MM> Lebanon. And while your are at it, the Sadam Hussein clan might
MM> also appreciate a lift"
MM> Happy?
Excellent! Amen, sister, a-MEN! };) Who says I don't know how to be
religious?
... richard.smith@syrundry.gigo.com
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:30:02
EID:bb7c 2091b3c0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175a92a
Gemantria: (((Al*[X1])2^J.j.)04-16-96 04:05[X2])
=Re: Adolph Hitler Was a C[X3]
JH> The major problem I have with the 'Hitler was a Xian' argument is
JH> that it depends upon takeing Hitler's public statements at face
JH> value.
JH> A dangerous assumption to make when dealing with any person seeking
JH> or holding public office, let alone Adolf Hitler.
AS> Yes. Hitler is a known liar, witness the treaty he signed with
AS> Chamberlain, and then scrapped. His actions speak much more directly
AS> to what Hitler was. (Not his atrocities---the plans to create a Reich
AS> Church, the not going to services, the killing himself without a
AS> priest to administer last rites, etc.)
This last part wouldn't have mattered, though. Regardless of if he got
last rites or not in the Catholic Church, killing himself would have
sent him to Hell regardless. So that last point is moot, right? }:)
... . . . don't talk to me about "reality". -- Jim Germiquet
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Question
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:51:04
EID:3b6f 2091b660
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175ae18
Gemantria: (((Al*[X1])2^Rob)04-16-96 00:03[X2]) =QUESTION[X3]
RB> An omnipotent 'loving' god could design an earth that had no Siamese
RB> twins, no childhood leukemia, no muscular distrophy. But instead, his
RB> design is exactly the same as an indifferent, conscienceless nature.
AS> Well, if He designed us so well, that there would be no deviation,
AS> then no evolution would take place, since evolution is caused by
AS> deviation over generations. So we would still be one-celled animals.
AS> If God goes in and directs us only in the way He has predetermined,
AS> then we are all perfect beings without fault and blemish. In fact...we
AS> are remarkably like the description of Adam and Eve...before the Fall.
AS> Even though I regard it as a parable, it DOES solve much at a stroke,
AS> if there is some truth to it. Once we might have been in such a state
AS> as you describe...and then we did the one thing that could get us
AS> kicked out.
Logic problem here, Al. If we assume for the sake of argument that
God's creation of the earth, etc., as given in Genesis is a given, then
there'd be no need for evolution since God himself generated all the
life forms and didn't start from single celled animals to evolve them
on down (or up) to you or myself. What would be wrong if we were all
perfect beings, all ultimately happy, content, etc.?
I have sons, like you, and can only begin to imagine the torment you
must feel, since my sons are young hellions, boisterous boys to the
core, who have no disfunction at this time. (Or ever, I hope.) While
I have my beliefs as to why such things happen to people, I'm sure that
they aren't the same as your rationales for them . . . and maybe some
day we can exchange our `excuses' for why such things happen. Yet I
know you feel deeply about this, especially in relationship to your
sons. I just want you to know that I'm not being disrespectful of your
feelings regarding this, nor them. I'm just curious. Obviously, we
all want our children to be golden ones, forever young, immortal, and
perfect. }:)
... "At birth we woke to dream in this world between." -Kan'ami Kiyotsugu
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 17 Apr 96 22:59:06
EID:220e 2091b760
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175affa
Gemantria: (((Al*[X1])2^Preston)04-16-96 03:08[X2]) =YOUR DAILY MURDER[X3]
AS> However, I NEVER lose my temper...waitasecond. Where's my Coke! I
AS> had a Coke here a minute ago...WHERE'S MY COKE!!!!!
AS> Sorry. Caffeine withdrawal.
PS> That's excusable. Caffeine deprivation is not something to be
PS> tolerated.
AS> That's the real reason the Middle Ages had the Crusades, the
AS> Inquisition, witch hunts, the Rack, etc. No caffeine.
You know, you might have something here . . . the Mid East is closer
to Arabic countries, that did have coffee from my understanding,
therefor the Crusades would be in keeping with this. The Inquisition
was strongest near countries that were or once were Islamic, again we
see cultures that used the coffee bean . . . don't see a connection
between the Witch hunts and caffiene, unless someone wanted to know how
to brew a better pot of coffee. But the whole conquest of the New
World had to be a quest for caffiene, both as coffee beans, but also as
the (New World Only) source for chocolate. There were desperate enough
to drink hot unsweetened chocolate back in the middle ages . . . };)
... Borg Alka Seltzer: I can't believe I assimilated the WHOLE thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 17 Apr 96 23:10:08
EID:9e90 2091b940
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3175b290
Gemantria: (((Al*[X1])2^Judith)04-16-96 03:00[X2])=HOLY SMOKE[X3]
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Lawrence Mccurry <=-
LM> === Lawrence ===
AS> Killer weed, dude.
JB> I really think he's down to seeds and stems, though.
AS> I HATE it when that happens.
AS> In the immortal words of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, "Dope
AS> will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you
AS> through times of no dope."
Far out. Underground comic references . . . };) Fat Freddie's cat was
my favorite ("Anybody got a dime to see a cat dance?") as well as
Wonder Warthog and anything by Crumb.
AS> (All the twenty-somethings just went "Huh?" Trust me, people; you
AS> would have had to have been there, in the sixties.)
Young whippersnappers anyway . . . }:) . . . ah, don't get me started
on the nostalgic bit again, Al . . .
... No stems, no seeds, that you don't need, Aculpoco Gold is ...pphhht...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: New HolySmoke files!
|Date: 17 Apr 96 23:27:00
EID:fe6e 2091bb60
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 31757e8d
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 9d5381bb
-=| On 15 Apr 96 10:19, Jim Staal said: |=-
DO>> Glad to see I'm still in on the list! Ain't got access to milk
DO>> crates no more...
JS> Sure...you are smiling now..._I_ still have access to a crate. I know
JS> where you keep em. (good luck, bro, in you new endeavor)
Thank you, kind sir.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 16 Apr 96 20:15:00
EID:7756 2090a1e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> It's my biggest gripe with christianity as practiced by most
JB> today...they call the words and teachings of Jesus, when put into
JB> action by those who believe them important, 'communism',
JB> 'bleeding-heart liberalism', etc. Well, there wasn't anyone more
JB> liberal, now was there?
LB> bingo.
The difference I see is that Jesus urged individuals to be
compassionate, loving and charitable. He never advocated government
systems which take from people what they earn and re-distribute it.
That, I think, is what conservative Christians criticize. (I know it's
true for me, anyway). Not charity, but government-mandated charity.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:13:00
EID:cbf5 2090b9a0
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TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Jim Germiquet <=-
AB> And it is a common idea. A pity that it makes no sense whatever, but
AB> then, most people aren't particularly rational when it comes to
AB> religion. Assume for the sake of argument that Christianity is true.
AB> Then God is omniscient; when he created the universe that he did, he
AB> thus must have known everything that would result. God is omnipotent;
AB> when he created the universe, he could thus have instead chosen to
AB> create any other universe which is logically possible (such as the
AB> Utopia which Mr. Hardy seems to have given up trying to refute). Thus,
AB> everything about our universe is quite clearly God's fault, because
he
AB> knew it would happen, and, albeit quite indirectly in the case of
AB> current events, brought it about anyway.
I did not "give up trying to refute" your nonsensical idea that free
will can somehow be simultaneously truly free and yet lead
to an inevitable outcome. I just haven't been able to figure out any
other way to show you the collassal failing in your logic, since my
first few attempts didn't seem to do the trick.
... German word for brassiere: Stoppemfrumfloppin.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: abortion
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:48:00
EID:a4af 2090be00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624380
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> There is no qualitative difference between a fetus at one week and
a
MH> fetus at eight months. The only differences are quantitative -- a
MH> matter of degree.
RB> A fetus at 8 months is viable outside the womb. It looks very much
RB> like a little (albeit helpless) person. It's organs are formed and
RB> it's brain is online. A fetus at one week looks nothing like a person.
RB> It hasn't even reached the tadpole stage. It has no organs and no
RB> brain. The differences are both quantitative and qualitative.
Sounds to me like the difference is pretty much a matter of whether the
fetus "looks" human. Look, I readily admit that the fetus becomes more
and more developed and self-sufficient as development progresses. What
I don't see is how that justifies making its life subject to forfeit
for some (vaguely-defined) period of time.
If you can abort the fetus at three months, why not five? If five
months, why not seven? If seven, why not eight? If eight, why not one
month after birth?
At every stage, you could come up with something the child cannot yet
do. No brain at one week, but no language ability at one month after
birth. No reproductive capability for several years.
It looks to me like people who are pro-choice feel free to each come up
with their own parameters that define "person." For some, it's fetal
viability. For others, birth. For others, heartbeat or brainwaves.
It's all a semantic game, IMO. The only real change is from non-being
into being.
RB> If a hospital nursery is on fire and inside the nursery is a premature
RB> baby (born 1 month early) and also a 1 week old embryo in a test tube,
RB> which do you save? I only submit this question to show that the
RB> difference is definitely qualitative.
Assuming I can only save one, I would save the older one. However,
the question has little bearing on the issue of abortion, where the
choice is rarely such an either-or.
I answered your question, now you answer this one: If a woman brings
you her one-week old infant and asks you if she should kill it so
that she can free to return to college, how would you respond? I only
submit this question to show that there is a point where you admit the
baby's right to live supersedes her choices.
RB> (sorry, couldn't resist). You think a week old embryo has more rights
RB> than a 20 year old woman.
In what way? I ask the question: Who has more to lose? Obviously,
losing your entire life is more significant than losing some of your
liberty. I do NOT think the week old embryo has *more* rights than the
woman. I think the fetus has a right to live -- the same as does the
woman.
MH> Because the fetus lacks cognition only because that is a normal stage
MH> of human development, soon to be outgrown. Where is the justification
MH> for robbing the fetus forever of its one and only chance at life,
MH> UNLESS you're influenced by selfishness and emotionalism?
RB> Are you vehemently opposed to coitus interuptus? That's robbing a
RB> potential fetus of it's one and only chance at life. And those little
RB> wiggly spermatoza are every bit as cognizant as a week old embryo.
RB> That is to say, not at all.
Fallacy. False comparison. The sperm will never be more than sperm.
The egg will never be more than an egg. When a sperm and egg meet, they
form a third, unique entity which *will* become far more than would
seem.
RB> Is it selfish to delay having children until you are ready? Until you
RB> actually want them and have the financial and emotional capacity to
RB> care for them? It seems the child would benefit if those criteria are
RB> met.
There is a significant -- and obvious -- difference between not
creating human life on the one hand, and interrupting one which is in
progress on the other. I do not intend to have children at all. There
is nothing wrong with that. I am not arguing that there is some kind of
duty for people to reproduce. The world would be better off if most
would not. I am only arguing that if sexual activity does create a
human life -- desired or not -- that human life should not be snuffed
out for reasons that are none of its doing.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:16:00
EID:73bd 2090ba00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624386
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Mark Barnett <=-
MB> Thats about the size of it. That is why God promiesed never to do it
MB> again.
KD> It seems to me that if one promises never to do something again, it
KD> was a mistake. Does that mean God isn't perfect?
At some point, most married couples with children decide they want no
more children. Does that mean the children they did have were mistakes?
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: apology to marilyn
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:50:00
EID:7ba9 2090be40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624384
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> You do notice, of course, that there is not a word about a need
MB> to apologize to ME. It has never occurred to him that I have in
MB> any way been hurt by this whole debacle, and that is why I've
MB> twitted him. He'll leave a certain amount of latitude for
MB> diversity among believers, but by damn, NONbeliever had better
MB> get it RIGHT!
LB> You make a very good point here, and I hope he will see it and address
LB> it. One *tiny* point though -- since you've made it clear that you
LB> don't read his posts and that you will never decide to change your
LB> opinion of him, he may not be up to having his head handed back to him
LB> on a platter right now.
LB> Don't ask for giant leaps from someone who's just learning how to
LB> walk.
Actually, I did try to start anew with Marilyn several months ago, and
she informed me that she had her mind made up and nothing I could do
would change it. (But *I'm* the "dogmatic" one ... ) It's kind of
hypocritical for her to now gripe about it, when she tried to bite
my hand last time I extended it.
Also, I don't think her point is so good. I dialogue quite civilly with
many unbelievers here -- Aaron Boyden, "Elliott Finesse," Rob Burcham,
and Martin Goldberg, for example.
MB> You also notice that the only reason who got even as much
MB> apology as you did is because he found out that there were
MB> "things going on in your life." In other words, so long as
MB> he can delude himself into thinking that nobody in this
MB> conference has a life outside this conference, we're fair
MB> game for his "I'm right and you're wrong" style of discourse.
MB> Now, THAT's real sensitive. NOT!
LB> A REALLY good point. And I hope a lot of people here were listening
to
LB> it.
In what way is it a good point? Good grief, *everybody* has a life
outside the echo. I don't see what that has to do with anything.
... Behaviorial Research: Pulling habits out of rats.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Evidence...
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:20:00
EID:1e34 2090ba80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624387
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
LB>Agreed, but there is still a theological dilemma that the
LB>fundamentalist view is left to mull over -- why would a god demand
LB>belief in an event that he took such great pains to "hide" the
LB>evidence for? This makes god a liar as well as genocidal. An
LB>omnipotent god could do all of that, but a god who is supposed to be
LB>either Merciful or Just WOULDN'T.
LB>Even by working under the assumption that God as described by
LB>Christian theology exists, the story of the Flood STILL doesn't add
LB>up.
KDM> True. The problem, though, is the usual response is to say that God
KDM> removed all evidence of the flood, as if there was evidence, it would
KDM> deny faith.
What little young-earth Creationist literature I've read says that
evidence for the flood is abundant -- the geological strata, which they
say evolutionists and us old-age Creationists wrongly (in their
opinion) take as evidence of billions of years of deposition.
... A Mexican won the lottery. It was a million to Juan.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: More Bible Errors
|Date: 16 Apr 96 23:23:00
EID:fde1 2090bae0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624388
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting John Steinson to Sean Mccullough <=-
Caught this from you in John's message to you ... I gotta turn this
twit filter off.
SM>From the King James Bible (Oxford):
SM>2 And they had in their inheritance Beer-sheba, and Sheba, and Moladah,
SM>3 And Hazar-Shual, and Balah, and Azem,
SM>4 And El-tolad, and Bethul, and Hormah,
SM>5 And Ziklag, and Beth-marcaboth, and Hazar-susah,
SM>6 And Beth-Lebaoth, and Sharuhen; thirteen cities with their villages:
SM> > Want to see it itemized?
SM> > 1. Beersheba (a.k.a. Sheba)
SM>BZZZT. The King James translation definitely lists Beer-Sheba and Sheba
as
SM>SEPARATE CITIES.
BZZT yourself. What the King James translation, or any other English
translation, says is not especially relevant. What's relevant is what
the original Hebrew says.
Unfortunately, Hebrew is ambiguous about punctuation. The presence or
absence of parentheses has to be inferred by translators. The NIV uses
parentheses just as I quoted: "Beersheba (or Sheba)" ...
Apparently, knowing that people in Joshua's day could count, and
knowing that it was not uncommon for the names of towns to vary, they
saw fit to give the author of Joshua the benefit of the doubt and
assume that if two similar names follow one another, and if the number
cited is one less than the number of names listed, then the two similar
names refer to the same place.
This idea is reinforced by the fact that when the same list of cities
appears in 1 Chronicles 4:28, Sheba is not among them.
... First a Swede, reincarnated as a Norweigian: Yep, I'm Bjorn again.
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|From: David Trosch
|To: All
|Sub: Relig/Free Speech Lawsuit
|Date: 17 Apr 96 11:57:17
EID:f1fb 20915f20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624389
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
Mobile, Alabama -- April 17, 1996
$53 Million - Anti- Religion and Free Speech -
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FACE Lawsuit by Abortionist.
Christians should soon expect to be required to profess:
1. Human beings do not exist from the moment of conception!
2. Abortion is not murder!
3. All religious beliefs need government approval!
Under the FACE (Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances) act,
abortionist Dr. Bruce Lucero of Birmingham, Alabama, is suing to
in effect restrict the U. S. Constitutional 1st amendment right of
free speech and religious belief. On the "Geraldo Show,"
October 1994 in New York City, [Geraldo had Fr. David Trosch
sit next to the abortionist] the general statement was made that
abortionists should be dead. [Best method for death of
abortionists would be by legal execution under just laws which
recognize the real value of pre-born persons.] Lucero is suing
for INTIMIDATION under the FACE law even though he had
voluntarily agreed to be on the show fully knowing and
understanding the stated and publicized position of the people
placed in opposition to him in regard to the defense of the
unborn. The U. S. Attorney General, Janet Reno, is permitting,
encouraging, and perhaps even promoting frivolous lawsuits at
the behest of pro-choicer's.
In 1973 the United States Supreme Court held it to be legal to
kill innocent preborn children right up through partial delivery of a
mature child. The only requirement being that the child's head
remain in the womb until the brain was punctured and sucked
out to possibly be used in health potions. Pres. Clinton recently
vetoed a congressional bill to restrict "Partial Birth Abortions."
The Federal government is prosecuting everyone they can who
is actively opposing legalized abortion. Many, including pregnant
women, have been jailed or imprisoned for their efforts to defend
the innocent. The government has been holding conspiracy
hearings involving numerous people who have spoken out
against abortion. These hearings have already cost many
millions of dollars. The cost continues to increase. The United
States is in effect participating in a conspiracy with Planned
Parenthood, National Organization of Women, Abortion Rights
Action League, and others against pro-life activists.
Trosch and others believe that "Abortion is Murder." Trosch's
superior, Archbishop Oscar H. Lipscomb, has agreed with this
position in deposition. The Catholic Church has held this
position since the early centuries of Christianity and Pope John
Paul II has restated the position in paragraph 58 of a recent
encyclical entitled, "The Gospel of Life." Trosch and many
others believe that as moral human beings created by God, the
unborn may be defended the same as any innocent born person
may be defended. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 2270)
Legitimate defense is not to be confused in any manner with
vigilantism, anger, vengeance, retribution or any type of
punishment. Per an MPR (Mobile Press Register) headline
article dated July 30, 1993, "Justifiable Homicide" is legal in all
50 states. The article also stated that California leads in
justifiable killings with Alabama ranking 27th in the nation.
The MPR has had information regarding this $53,000,000.00 law
suit against Fr. Trosch for some time and has thus far made no
mention of it. The scheduled two or more day trial begins:
Monday, April 22, 1996 at 9:00 A.M. in courtroom "2-A" before:
Charles R. Butler, Jr. Chief District Judge
United States District Court House
113 St. Joseph Street
Mobile, AL 36602
Fr. Trosch made national and international headlines when the
MPR published a Sunday morning front page story on August 15,
1993 in regard to a cartoon that was designed to present the
"philosophical question" asking what could be considered
justifiable: The premeditated killing of an innocent human being,
or, the death of the aggressor who is a paid assassin. The
article was placed immediately below one about Pope John
Paul's visit to Denver in which active opposition to abortion was
encouraged.
The Mobile newspaper -- which runs a dating column serving to
promote immoral sexual behavior and deviant lifestyles -- and
other public media are apparently turning in favor of promoting
abortion and sodomy. The MPR column is frequently run on a
highly visible back page and is called "Voice Meeting Place" and
encourages "new age romance."
Pro-choice/abortion advocates and sodomites have teemed up
politically and defensively to support each other in their deviancy.
It may of course be that the Mobile paper is solely interested in
reporting in such a manner as will sell the greatest number of
papers possible and is not concerned with immorality. In
defense of the MPR it seems that honorable journalism is no
longer a factor of importance in publishing a newspaper
anywhere in the nation. A recent issue of the MPR gave
apparent approval to sodomite relationships and even published
a photo of two men embracing. Dogs, lions, and animal rights
have been given voluminous column space far out of proportion
to their comparative value to innocent humans in the womb.
Mobile has historically been a Christian city, but is it any longer?
It seems that throughout the country Christians -- still the
dominant form of religious belief in this country -- prefer to sit at
home or in church pews praying that God will make everything
right. [Cowards are to be condemned and the indifferent are to
be spewed out as vomit.] All religious beliefs seem to have
forgotten that following the creation of the world God gave
control of it to the human race, "Be fertile and multiply; fill the
earth and subdue it." God will hold each and everyone,
personally capable of acting against evil, accountable for their
inactivity. Popular church leaders will be held most accountable.
More information and documentation available as follows:
Private BBS: . 334-607-0082 . (24 hours daily - All of April.)
. . . . . . The trial argumentation file is: . JDG-BTLR.TXT
. . also available in Word Perfect (DOS) 6.0:. JDG-BTLR.WP6
Internet E-Mail: . . trosch@dibbs.net
Fax - Phone: . . . . . . . 334-639-7456
Fr. David C. Trosch
PO Box 850307
Mobile, AL 36685-0307
Help of any kind will be appreciated.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: SCIENCE VS. FAITH
|Date: 16 Apr 96 19:49:00
EID:761a 20909e20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624381
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> RB> When a naturalist is unable to back up his claim by
MH> RB> scientific means, it isn't called 'religion'. It's
MH> RB> called 'I don't know'. Theists should try it sometime.
MH>
MH> However, the dogmatic insistence that all reality MUST be natural,
that
MH> the supernatural cannot exist, IS a religious assumption. It is the
MH> rejection of traditional religion, but that is itself an unevidenced
MH> belief to which the Materialist must hold by faith.
RB> It continues to puzzle me how a person who has no beliefs in the
RB> supernatural is said to be 'religious'. A religious atheist is
RB> tantamount to a meat-eating vegetarian.
I did not say that such a person is religious. I said that he holds a
specific opinion about the existence of God and the possibility of said
God's intervention in the material world. Those are religious subjects.
Such a person rejects religious belief, but that is itself a choice
*about* religion.
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Starwyn
|Sub: test
|Date: 16 Apr 96 20:06:00
EID:40b5 2090a0c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89624382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Starwyn to All <=-
St> Is this getting out? I'd like to order a large pizza please, with
St> nothing on it.
St>
And a root beer, hold the mug. :)
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 18 Apr 96 01:09:22
EID:a250 20920920
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 3175eaa2
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 657d08d7
A Fair & Just God?
Which one is fair?
Which one is just?
Lots of gods around, just asking which one is all.
Oh, you also said this:
JH> Here in Texas we have a concealed weapon law, but prohibitions
JH> are permitted and common.
Have you noticed that Metro Bus has the signs saying no concealed
weapons are allowed...however, unlike the signs that say no smoking,
drinking, or eating, there is no wording about criminal or civil code.
Thus, if you are caught with a concealed gun, all they can do is ask
that you get off of the bus. (and enforce it, probably, but not a jailable
offence)
JH> I don't know what this country is comeing to.
Nor do I, but can say with no reservation, it's goin to the dawgs!
JH> They won't even let you carry your legally concealed weapon to
JH> church.
Thank gawd for small miricles! Why, that would prevent me from shooting
some of these xians that get in my face trying to save my ugly arse from
the everlasting hell fire and damnation! Praise be to gawd! Halaluja!!
Praise Jesus, yes, praise him on high! Bashoona karooph danna hoo movah
tof! (oops, sorry, the spirit caught me, I don't like to pray in tounges
in public!)
L8ter daze!
...Brian
JH> church.
JH> Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
What relation is that to the ol Hostes Twinkie?
(forgive me lawd, i know not know how to spell or discern the
difference of Hostes and Hostess, or whoever the debbil makes
them darn ol yummy tum tum Twinkies!)
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: The Raven
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:54:46
EID:03e5 209216c0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:3819/163 316B4527
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d6
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
DC>Seems like your bible is missing something, like corroborating
DC>evidence.
MB>Not all science is backed up by corroborating evidence, a lot of
MB>science is theory.
I'm sorry, but I don't think I'll let you divert the argument. Let's
see some corroborating evidence supporting the bible (which was the original
point). Shaky or not, there *is* evidence to support the "scientific
argument", and this is much more than there is to support the "biblical
argument".
Jack Butler
... Fun Bible Fact: Genesis 2 directly contradicts Genesis 1.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: LAURA HODGKINS
|Sub: Angels
|Date: 13 Apr 96 05:21:14
EID:df49 208d2aa0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:322/746 5c9c7d3e
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 31703f8a
LH> Does anyone here believe there are angels, or that it is possible to
LH> have seen one's guardian angel?
Never met one, and no.
Jack Butler
... "I see the truth in it." -- Paul Atreides
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:22:25
EID:ee9c 20921ac0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:116/19 035D4564
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d8
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
AS> Perhaps. But how often do you get twelve lunatics to agree on
AS> anything? To be insane is to be different.
Easier than you think, Al... how many Islamics have blown themselves up,
convinced that they have a penthouse reservation in the Pearly Gates Hilton
if they just give their lives for Allah? How many people believed that
the
Martians really did land back in 1938? How many Branch Davidians believed
that David Koresh was actually Jesus Christ?
Easier than you think...
AS> But you yourself do not dismiss the possibility of intelligent life
AS> out there, despite UFO nuts. And you, I assume, theoretically
AS> acknowledge that there COULD be aliens out there.
Ummm... I'd like to point out that while belief in UFO lore necessitates
a belief in extraterrestrial life, the opposite is not true. I believe
heartily that there are other intelligent species out there somewhere.
I
do *not*, however, believe that any of those intelligent species have ever
been *here* for a visit.
Jack Butler
... "Brandy, bottled in 1783... 1783 was a very good year."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Credibility
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:17:26
EID:32e2 20921220
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a240
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d2
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
AS> I think it's again, a matter of personality; people like Sean and Fred
AS> (and, in times before, Larry Sites, and others) can make dogmatic
AS> pronouncements with the best of 'em, and very few clear their throat
AS> said, "Isn't that just a little hasty...?"
I remember you being surprised when I blasted Rice for being a dick to
people he disagreed with...
Jack Butler
... "I've been raising up my hands, drive another nail in."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: False Prophets
|Date: 18 Apr 96 01:51:15
EID:7228 20920e60
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895C0E24
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6ce
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
MC> I didn't know kikes paid taxes?
I didn't know brainless shitheads used computers till I saw a note from
your.
Jack Butler
... Welcome to Florida. Now get the hell out.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FALSE PROPHETS
|Date: 18 Apr 96 01:59:01
EID:200c 20920f60
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:116/19 0434BABC
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6cf
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
AS> (I'm a Christian, and of course I know the Holocaust happened.)
That's because your IQ is larger than your shoe size...
Jack Butler
... "Och! We've got to get... out of this trap!" -- Dr. Scott
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: The Raven
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: False Prophets (Like there are true ones?)
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:13:04
EID:70e6 209211a0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 338890c0
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d1
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
> BEWARE!
>
> David J. Smith (Newswatch magazine) is a Zionist stooge.
FR> Yes, Jim. We know. We are too.
Should we let him know that just about everyone on this echo is a
zionist stooge? That way maybe he's hie his ass out the door...
Jack Butler
... "What's your Tradition?" "Get them before they get me..."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: The Raven
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: For Marilyn B.
|Date: 16 Apr 96 13:16:32
EID:f1cc 20906a00
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895E43E0
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6c0
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
MH> If you refuse to talk to me, then I respectfully request you stop
MH> talking *about* me. It isn't fair for you to make accusations and
MH> allow me no opportunity to confront my accuser.
The world ain't fair, Mike, and no one here is required to play fair
with you. I'll still talk to you, even though you aren't as respected by
me
as you once were. However, if they want to bad mouth you in front of your
face, that's just tough.
Jack Butler
... "Don't look up; the sky is falling." -- Tori Amos
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: The Raven
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:28:13
EID:8c95 20921b80
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:116/19 035CF8C0
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d9
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
AS> Anyone who sold a man for thirty pieces of silver...although it wouldn't
AS> surprise me if Judas had a more revolutionary motive, to spur Jesus
into
AS> action.
Ever see "Jesus Christ Superstar"? Offers the readical view that Judas
sold Jesus out to save the Jews from even heavier oppression. He saw the
growing popularity of Jesus and worried that the Romans would see it as
a
rebellion in the making and come down even harder than they already were
on
the Hebrews...
Jack Butler
... "Trust me... I'm a sociopathic knife-murderer." -- Salvatore
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: The Raven
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Harmony
|Date: 18 Apr 96 03:00:36
EID:1b01 20921800
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:116/19 0486B57E
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d7
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
MB> If the Europeans had just kept their noses out of things on that
MB> continent, the African tribes would still be in harmony with nature.
I know I'm going to be sorry for opening this can of worms, but would you
be so kind as to define your terms? What exactly do you mean by "still
be
in harmony with nature"? What harmony are you implying?
I am asking this because the same sort of statement has been made about
the Indians, and I *know* that its bullshit when it comes to us...
Jack Butler
... ROCKY.TAG Taglines from and about "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: help me
|Date: 13 Apr 96 05:23:38
EID:a81b 208d2ae0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895C4391
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 31703f8b
MH> I invite anyone who wishes to show or tell me what I have done that
MH> is offensive. I am seriously trying to evaluate my behavior and make
MH> any necessary changes.
I'll tell you something you probably won't hear to often: when I
restarted my association with this echo, I enjoyed writing to you. Sure,
we
are on "opposite sides of the argument", as it were, but you used intelligent
reasoning and gave the other person the benefit of the doubt as far as their
own reasoning is concerned. In other words, you were willing to acknowledge
that maybe a non-believer put as much thought and feeling into their own
religious decisions as you did yours.
Somewhere along the way, you stopped being willing to acknowledge this.
You spared no pain in pointing out that *you* had done a lot of thinking,
etc., but were unwilling to admit that other people may have put as much
thinking, as much soul-searching, as you had. To point: you began to
trivialize (*NOT* bad-mouth or insult, but trivialize) the conclusions of
others, even when they were as solidly based as your own.
This was your cardinal sin, for me. Its the reason I consider Al to be
a pal while you I find to be a putz. He, at least, doesn't make light of
my
own beliefs, or lack thereof.
Jack Butler
... Experience is an expensive teacher. All others are underpaid.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Mind Control
|Date: 16 Apr 96 14:25:16
EID:eed4 20907320
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89600E20
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6c1
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
DC> It's a matter of counting, Jack. Larry counts 1, 2, many.
DC> Unfortunately, millions suffer and die, and 13 is more than 6
DC> and 40 is more than 13 and 65 is more than 40. Therefore, the
DC> 65 million is tragic and the 6 million isn't.
DC> One of these days he'll learn to count to a single digit and
DC> understand that each person is is important.
My point...
Jack Butler
... "I've allies in Heaven, I've comrades in Hell..." -- The Crow
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Pinnacle of Life
|Date: 16 Apr 96 14:26:31
EID:7919 20907340
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89600E26
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6c2
I am declaring a Pax Humanica regarding this issue. Simply put, I just
don't want to get into it. But I did want to let you know that my name
is
*not* John, has never been John, and won't be John. It's Jack, just like
it
appears on my birth certificate.
Jack Butler
... "May God grant you the mercy that I cannot." -- The Crow
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/90
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/15 992 206/2711 218/801 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1
SEEN-BY: 282/4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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PATH: 363/309 319 118 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Raven
|To: Renee Deyoe
|Sub: Question
|Date: 18 Apr 96 02:02:14
EID:c01e 20921040
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:3621/22 316db251
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d0
"This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
RD> I see no reli