God Damned Fundies!
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 19 Apr 96 01:06:00
EID:c051 209308c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366E8A8
PS> Not at one shot, no. I know a guy who is, at last report, currently
PS> working on filling a gallon jar.
I REALLY didn't need to know that...
... Do not disturb. Already disturbed.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Leland Tsao
|Sub: Harmony
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:04:00
EID:226f 20931080
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366EC72
-=> Quoting The Raven to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> If the Europeans had just kept their noses out of things on that
MB> continent, the African tribes would still be in harmony with nature.
TR> I know I'm going to be sorry for opening this can of worms, but
TR> would you be so kind as to define your terms? What exactly do you mean
TR> by "still be in harmony with nature"? What harmony are you implying?
TR> I am asking this because the same sort of statement has been made
TR> about the Indians, and I *know* that its bullshit when it comes to
TR> us...
That's sort of the way I felt. Try and tell those starving in Africa, "Oh,
we're not going to share aid with you, because heavens, we messed up and
ruined your quaint tribal culture and we'll just make it worse." Harmony,
schmarmony, People in tribes were just trying to eke out a living as best
they could in the only way they knew how, and if they had access to better
technology, they would have jumped at it. The Indians did want it...guns
and horses and a lot of things the Europeans had....they just didn't want
to be enslaved along with it. So did the Africans. Knowledge is, and has
always been, power, and you can't turn back the clock...you have to go
forward.
I don't go on and on about how the nasty Roman Empire ruined the Germanic
tribes from which I sprang, and ruined the Germanic "harmony with
nature"...
... Grey: (n.) an alien lifeform traveling light-years to molest cattle.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Leland Tsao
|Sub: help me
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:02:00
EID:ecf1 20931040
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366F078
TR> Its the reason I consider Al to be a pal while you I find to be a putz.
TR> He, at least, doesn't make light of my own beliefs, or lack thereof.
I'm too busy defending my own to mock anybody else's...
Thanks, Jack. I don't agree with your assessment on Mike, but I do know
a pal when I "see" one.
... "You live and learn. Or you don't live long." -L. Long. ___ Blue
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:04:00
EID:858c 20931080
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366F35C
AS> In the immortal words of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, "Dope
AS> will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you
AS> through times of no dope."
RS> Far out. Underground comic references . . . };) Fat Freddie's cat
RS> was my favorite ("Anybody got a dime to see a cat dance?") as well as
RS> Wonder Warthog and anything by Crumb.
There was one called Captain Guts I kind of liked. Mr. Natural was
probably my favorite Crumb character.
AS> (All the twenty-somethings just went "Huh?" Trust me, people; you
AS> would have had to have been there, in the sixties.)
RS> Young whippersnappers anyway . . . }:) . . . ah, don't get me started
RS> on the nostalgic bit again, Al . . .
Going into the local head shop to get underground comics, sandwiched
between the bongs and the day-glo posters...oops. Sorry.
(Innocent look...)
... "Hey, Mr. Natural! I've been working out! How do I look?""Ridiculous!"
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: HOLY SMOKE
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:09:00
EID:0334 20931120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366F6E0
AS> (All the twenty-somethings just went "Huh?" Trust me, people; you
AS> would have had to have been there, in the sixties.)
JB> Oh yes, Al, I remember that one. I was also playing off the 'New
JB> Riders' song 'Down to Seeds and Stems Again Blues'.
Whole Earth Catalog. Zig-Zag papers. Love-ins. We get nostalgic for the
oddest things...
... You're only young once. After that you need another excuse.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: LOSING THE LABELS (1/2)
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:07:00
EID:9793 209310e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366FABE
AS> days afterwards. (And Marilyn reminds me of the stereotypical
AS> mother-in-law going, I don't know what you ever saw in that
AS> loser, I told you never to go back to him, etc.)
MB> I simply can't stand his brand of dishonesty. He'll say whatever
MB> gets him off the hook at the moment, then turn his back on those
MB> very words in nothing flat (if doing so seems to have momentary
MB> advantage in that new moment).
In all honesty, Marilyn, I really don't see it.
MB> Fer instance, when the abortion battle was raging in here, I
MB> pointed out to him the insurmountable practical problems with the
MB> "only in cases of rape or incest" approach to the problem.
MB> I went into detail about how crowded the court system was, and how
MB> impossible it would be to establish that a rape had occurred until
MB> long after the window of opportunity had passed for an abortion.
MB> I further pointed out to him how many additional cases would be in
MB> the court system every year, just trying to hash out who had been
MB> falsely accused so that some woman could get an abortion who
MB> wanted one (can you say a million new court cases every year? Can
MB> you say some significant portion of those rape cases ending in
MB> charges being brought against the woman for filing a false police
MB> report? Can you say a million other cases being ignored so these
MB> cases could be "brought to justice?")
??? But if you charged the man with rape or incest right away, surely it
would be months before the pregnancy would show? Wouldn't it be workable
if the charge preceded the discovery of the pregnancy? We needn't even
get a conviction, in that case. But if the discovery of the pregnancy was
BEFORE the charging, not to grant it?
Sorry. I started to think these things through logically. Bad habit.
MB> He agreed with me that that approach was unworkable on a practical
MB> level, and that, for that reason, he was not advocating that
MB> approach.
MB> It wasn't more than a half-dozen posts later, on the same day,
MB> that he posted to somebody else that he FAVORED the "only in cases
MB> of rape or incest" approach to the problem!
Well...are you SURE, rock-solid SURE, that the post was AFTER he wrote
that response to you? You admit it was the same day...and he might have
been storing responses for several days, for that matter. All of us are
sometimes inconsistent, Marilyn, without being purposely dishonest.
MB> He wouldn't know honesty if it bit him in the ass. He's
MB> demonstrated that again and again.
Again...respectfully...don't see it.
MB> I really hate liars. Trying to sort out what they REALLY mean from
MB> what they are saying just because they think it sounds good at the
MB> moment is NOT worth my time and mental energy. I LIKE being able
MB> to take people at face value. It is impossible for ANYTHING that
MB> Michael says to be taken that way. He has condemned himself with
MB> his own words.
I must admit I don't have much respect for trollers. To me, Mike has been
remarkably consistent. As for the rape/incest thing...maybe it IS
unworkable. But still I think it is commendable to perhaps err on the side
of mercy for a woman who has NO choice about being impregnated, as opposed
to one who took the chance for something she DID want to do...and lost.
Especially when you consider that HE considers it murder...
... A generation which ignores history has no past or future.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: MARILYN
|Date: 19 Apr 96 05:07:00
EID:b903 209328e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366FD84
AS> Many here do that. And I thought his response to Lynda
AS> concerning her spiritual crisis was unfortunately worded,
AS> even granting he didn't know all I knew of what was going on.
MH> And I deeply regret doing so.
AS> Good. Too bad Marilyn will never see that. Unless she reads
AS> my reply to this.
MB> Only a VERY small beginning. He regrets doing it because it
MB> "came at a bad time" in her life. Otherwise, he would feel
MB> it was open seaon on here, just like it is on Spong.
Do you want him to mollycoddle Lynda? To talk down to her? To not treat
her as an intellectual equal, with viewpoints that she is capable of
defending?
MB> He gripes about the fact that he can't respond directly to me,
MB> yet he said Spong ought to resign his bishopric without a moment's
MB> hesitation. Is Spong here to defend HIMSELF? Has Mike apologized
MB> to Spong? Hell no! I'd bet the farm he hasn't. More of his
MB> damnable intellectual dishonesty and double standard. HE can do
MB> no wrong, but the rest of us who disagree with him regarding what
MB> wrong is are shit outta luck!
Apologize to Spong for what?
Spong hasn't read Michael's posts, that we know of. His opinion of what
Spong should do would not effect Spong in the least. I think some of the
televangelists should resign, that Oral Roberts' ploy a few years ago to
get a million dollars for his university by a certain time or "God would
call him home," was a shameless attempt at spiritual blackmail by a
preacher on his believers. I think Roberts should resign, and make no
bones about it, and have NO INTENTION of apologizing for that statement.
And of course, what I said doesn't hurt Roberts at all. And if it has hurt
any believer reading this who believes strongly in Roberts, I'm sorry, but
I'm not going to retract it. It is, after all, my honest opinion.
If Michael sees some hypocrisy between maintaining the Apostles' Creed,
which includes, "Born of the Virgin Mary," "Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
buried, and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures, and
ascended into Heaven" (it's been a long time since I've had to recite the
Apostle's Creed, we don't do that in the CofC, so if I got the words
wrong, Lynda, forgive me, if you're reading this.), and Spong's own
convictions that no one living today could believe a virgin could
conceive, or that a dead man literally walked or ascended in any sort of
movement into the sky....and remember,as a bishop, he is sworn to uphold
tha same Creed...
Then perhaps...just perhaps, Marilyn...Michael similarly does't like
"intellectual dishonesty and double standard". Perhaps he thinks it odd
that Spong is being maintained by the church in a position of authority,
his meals paid for, his lodgings provided....and yet does not defend the
same tenets that he MUST, from the pulpit, make others recite, as I
remember the Episcopal Church. Perhaps he would feel Spong could better,
and with a clearer conscience, espouse the views that are his own as
simply a theologian, rather than a leader in a church which has definite
standards. (Interestingly enough, Spong could be a Church of Christ
minister, because there IS no creed there...)
Now...having said that...let me just say that I think Spong is doing a
lot of good in some ways. And maybe he is making those uncomfortable with
the tenets of miracles still comfortable with the idea of Christ. And
maybe he is extending the Lord's love in ways the church SHOULD go, like
towards gay clergy. For those things, I may be willing to overlook what
_I_ consider hypocrisy and double standards to give Spong a chance.
Could you do the same for Mike?
... A long dispute means both parties are wrong.--Voltaire
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:09:00
EID:5faf 20931920
MSGID: 1:116/19 036701D0
AS> Am I? You were forced to at least equivocate on one. And I think
DC> Seems like someone else showed that was not necessary, on both
DC> counts.
1 Chronicles 4:28 has the same thirteen cities recounted...without the
disputed one.
AS> Michael will have some more for you. BTW, which translation of the
AS> Bible are you consulting?
DC> Thing is, that's the point. The bible gets re-written and
DC> re-interpreted at ever juncture. However, the glaring errors
DC> still seem to crop up.
Sure. But again...there are some errors that are understandable, in Hebrew
people. But how likely do you think it is that the Jews could not count
as
high as thirteen---twice--without making a mistake? And the same mistake
both times?
DC> Have you seen the post on the debate? Marylin Burge, I think,
DC> posted that one...
Seen it and answered it.
... "Sheesh! Try to do something nice, and you get flamed!" -- Joan of Arc
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:02:00
EID:d45a 20931840
MSGID: 1:116/19 03670734
AS> WHat is really needed is for people to really develop the UFOs as a
AS> MYTHOLOGY. As actual claims they are worthless, but I am fascinated
AS> bu the parellels I see both with old mythologies and fairy stories,
AS> and someone needs to take the Grays, the Men in Black, the many
AS> stories and try to write it as a cohesive whole, a mythology we can
AS> read as we do Hesiod, or the Elder Edda, as literally a myth for our
AS> times.
RS> I think this a neat idea. I've always been struck between the
RS> similarities between the UFO people and vampire legends. Same pasty
RS> grey/white skin, big dark eyes, etc. Same activities during the
RS> night, similar interactions with bodily fluid, etc. Maybe there's an
RS> archetype here . . .
They still take things from us, just cell samples and blood samples and
sperm samples, according to the UFO mythology...a new volume of
Bullfinch's mythology covering the UFO stuff?
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:04:00
EID:64f4 20931880
MSGID: 1:116/19 03670B76
AS> WHat is really needed is for people to really develop the UFOs as a
AS> MYTHOLOGY. As actual claims they are worthless, but I am fascinated
PS> They already are. People who are solid Jungians have advanced the
PS> claim that UFOs and little grey men have become archetypes.
Yeah. UFOs were mandelas, I believe, projected onto the sky. But I was
thinking more something a little more like Hesiod's family tree of the
gods...something that unifies and clarifies which races do what, what role
the Men in Black have, that sort of thing...
... A single fact can spoil a good argument.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Question
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:07:00
EID:9f41 209318e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03670F72
AS> Well, if He designed us so well, that there would be no deviation,
AS> then no evolution would take place, since evolution is caused by
AS> deviation over generations. So we would still be one-celled animals.
AS> If God goes in and directs us only in the way He has predetermined,
AS> then we are all perfect beings without fault and blemish. In fact...we
AS> are remarkably like the description of Adam and Eve...before the Fall.
AS> Even though I regard it as a parable, it DOES solve much at a stroke,
AS> if there is some truth to it. Once we might have been in such a state
AS> as you describe...and then we did the one thing that could get us
AS> kicked out.
RS> Logic problem here, Al. If we assume for the sake of argument that
RS> God's creation of the earth, etc., as given in Genesis is a given,
RS> then there'd be no need for evolution since God himself generated all
RS> the life forms and didn't start from single celled animals to evolve
RS> them on down (or up) to you or myself. What would be wrong if we were
RS> all perfect beings, all ultimately happy, content, etc.?
That was actually two different approaches. In one he creates us sort of
the way science believes, but doesn't allow mutation to happen. And we
stay the same. As for the latter...nothing really, as long as you are not
forced to be that way...i.e.,have a way to get out of that perfect
existence if you so choose to, and thus would not be a puppet. But not be
dumb enough to DO it, which unfortunately, according to the Eden story,
we
were...
RS> I have sons, like you, and can only begin to imagine the torment you
RS> must feel, since my sons are young hellions, boisterous boys to the
RS> core, who have no disfunction at this time. (Or ever, I hope.)
RS> While I have my beliefs as to why such things happen to people, I'm
RS> sure that they aren't the same as your rationales for them . . . and
RS> maybe some day we can exchange our `excuses' for why such things
RS> happen. Yet I know you feel deeply about this, especially in
RS> relationship to your sons. I just want you to know that I'm not being
RS> disrespectful of your feelings regarding this, nor them. I'm just
RS> curious. Obviously, we all want our children to be golden ones,
RS> forever young, immortal, and perfect. }:)
Well, yeah...maybe God feels much the same way about us...
But in another way, it's...hmmm. Okay. It's a raw deal in many ways...but
to God, who can sense our every thought and feeling, we are ALL autistic,
inarticulate, whatever, and the difference between myself and a nonverbal
autistic is like the difference between the strength in an ant to a
beetle...negligible. Similarly, we're all blind next to an omniscient
being, deaf, crippled next to a being who is omnipresent, enfeebled next
to someone who is omnipotent. That is not to say that God does not know
the difference. Jesus cured the child whose lack of speech was caused by
demons, gladly. But yet...we are all disfunctional, next to God.
... On the 6th day, God created Man. It's clear he was tired.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Return Of Propterty
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:00:00
EID:15eb 20931800
MSGID: 1:116/19 036712CE
AS> I have offered to do the same. You might be interested to know that
AS> I was in #holysmoke the other night, Saturday, and Lynda and I were
AS> talking, when George came. I called him a thief/vandal/blackmailer,
AS> and he tried to whine it was "part of the agreement" with John. I
AS> rarely come to #holysmoke, and considered it extreme good fortune to
AS> at least BEGIN to tell George what an utter waste of breathing flesh
AS> he is. Then Lynda booted him off.
RS> Al, is there any way to get a copy of these archives, either from you
RS> or from Fredric? (This is Norbert Sykes, btw, in case you haven't
RS> seen my other post concerning my real name . . . ) I missed the whole
RS> debacle when Net 1:203 was down here locally for two weeks, and want
RS> to at least be aware of what went on. Please let me know. I will
RS> leave my internet address as a tagline in case you wish to communicate
RS> that way. Thanx.
Thanks, Richard. I'm at home till Tuesday, and I believe I stored them on
my computer at work. Let me see what I can do, though....I might still
have them here, also.
... Sit down before Fact like a little child... -T.H. Huxley
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Self-portrait: Mark Craig
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:04:00
EID:f503 20931880
MSGID: 1:116/19 0367194A
AS> Mark Craig's self-portrait?
AS> And notice the lack of genitalia....
DC>
DC> That's because, what little there was, was kicked up into his head!
Well, at least he can hear himself coming...
DC> The idiot's a troll, and even isn't good at that.
He actually did manage a long one the other day. Someone must have taught
him how to cut-and-paste...
... Against stupidity, the Gods themselves, contend in vain !
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Thanks
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:08:00
EID:8045 20931900
MSGID: 1:116/19 03671EFE
AS> No. George Rudzinski. He and John Brawley had a falling out over
AS> George being tossed off an echo John helps co-moderate. John had
AS> loaned George a book, with annotations in John's own
AS> handwriting...irreplacable. He told John to stay off Holy SMoke for
AS> ninety days, just as John ordered him off the echo John co-moderates,
AS> or else he wouldn't get the book back. John posted a message to "All"
AS> saying that because he really needed the book back, he was going to
AS> not respond to any messages. George said that it was an infringement
AS> on their "agreement" to post it publicly, even if to say he couldn't
AS> reply...and destroyed John's book. Yeah. I know. He claimed to be a
AS> "man of his word". Styx ejected him immediately. What a jerk. I hope
AS> John sues him and takes him to the cleaners.
RS> Ah, at last I get the whole story. Damn, I hate missing two weeks of
RS> this echo! So George finally showed his colors for the true coward
RS> he was, eh? Extortion, burning of books, etc., . . . who'd have
RS> thought him such a fascist. Good riddance to bad rubbish . . .
To paraphrase Shakespeare in Richard the III, nothing became George so
much as his being booted out.
... Blind people don't bungee jump; it scares the dog too much.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: THE DROOL GAME
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:09:00
EID:0a7a 20932120
MSGID: 1:116/19 036724B2
AS> Granted. Then, by the same token, if Michael was getting more
AS> interested in science, but from a creationist viewpoint, one
AS> shouldn't complain that, as long as he is learning more
AS> science than he knows before, not to worry that the science
AS> book comes from the ICR? Personally, I tend to warn people of
AS> books I think are folly...
MB> That's hardly the same thing. There is a million data points to
MB> debunk creationism; there are NO data points to verify miracles
MB> as literal truth. Given that, you're comparing apples and
MB> Kenworths. A person can believe just about anything they choose
MB> where religion is concerned, and the only counter to those beliefs
MB> is that they are outside of orthodoxy. In the case of Spong's
MB> conjectures, you can't even say that, with a moral certainty. Too
MB> many people agree with him -- certainly enough to make it what
MB> might be called "the New Orthodoxy." Religious beliefs are nothing
MB> more than thoughts; creationism has to line up with something much
MB> more substantial: the physical evidence. It can't do that.
You think Spong is the NEW Orthodoxy? He seems a minority who is fighting
to stay where he is, and those who follow him. It is Fundamentalists who
seem to have the fastest-growing churches. Not that he should sell out on
that account, but it does underscore that he is not a new orthodoxy.
MB> If you have to tell somebody what good manner are, they just
MB> don't have them. No sense in deluding yourself into believing
MB> they do, because they just don't.
AS> Speaking of manners...I won't quote directly, since I
AS> promised you I wouldn't, but Michael has requested that, if
AS> he is to be twitted, that we refrain from talking about him,
AS> since it is the cybernetic equivelent of talking pointedly
AS> about someone and then ignoring them. I think that a
AS> reasonable request. Your point to Lynda about your mood
AS> swings making communication with Michael impossible is
AS> something I hadn't considered, and if Michael makes you so
AS> mad, that's understandable. But if that's the case, perhaps
AS> we should move on to other things.
MB> Why should I? He's my poster boy of what is wrong with the dogmatic
MB> approach. If anybody is sitting on any fences, he serves a purpose,
MB> whether he likes the purpose he serves or not.
As you wish. But I will say this in all friendliness, Marilyn. If Michael
keeps on asking for advice how to change; and you keep piling abuse on
him; if he keeps asking for advice; and you keep on talking how
"dishonest" he is....
It is you who will come off...whether it is true or not...as the
dogmatic one, the unreasonable one. You will be making his case FOR him.
If you WANT to do that, keep on doing what you are doing.
... Ask NOT for whom the Belle trolls...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: THE DROOL GAME
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:00:00
EID:a791 20932000
MSGID: 1:116/19 036727B4
AS> Maybe it's just me or my Christian bias, but I don't see that at
AS> all; he has shown himself well-read on Christianity pro and con,
AS> having read more of Spong than I, and Burton Mack, etc. Yes, he is
AS> opinionated. Well, and David Worrell, Marilyn Burge, et al AREN'T???
SA> However, those individuals that you mentioned will at least
SA> appear to give consideration to alternate views if there is a well
SA> reasoned argument presented on a topic that they are in the process
of
SA> discussing. This may take the form of picking an argument apart, but
at
SA> least you get the sense that they saw what was written. Michael, on
SA> the other hand, has been tending to argue by the method of shouting
"is
SA> not" louder and louder, without even doing much to attempt to pick
SA> apart the argument in question. For example, in a recent discussion
I
SA> had with him, I was trying to discuss the possibility that the death
SA> and ressurection of Jesus was an elaborate hoax. Michael kept saying
SA> how unreasonable that was, how difficult that was, and how much of an
SA> EVENT (his term) the ressurection was, without really arguing
SA> substancially against the points that I was trying to bring up in
SA> support of this possibility. His strong belief of the ressurection
SA> (IMO) appeared to keep him from seeing the possibility that I was
SA> trying to get him to think about. I was not even trying to get him
to
SA> change his belief on this...just realize that there may be alternate
SA> ways that individuals could see this story.
SA> And yes, I do agree that there are other "brick walls" here.
I'll agree with you there. But David and Marilyn are opinionated, but
not really brick walls. As for the rest...
I really see Mike ACCUSED of "Is not!" a lot more than he ever does so.
Now, I'll be honest and admit that I DON'T remember the exchanges between
you two, but I think it's fair to say on other similar points, he tries
to
pick apart the argument by pointing out how unlikely it is that JEsus
would conspire with several other people to fake His own death, how
unlikely it would be if the disciples knew of the deception, etc. I
certainly have argued that way myself. Certainly Mike and I have sometimes
used the same arguments (mostly stolen from a common source, a book
called, WHO MOVED THE STONE?)...maybe I've just not been quite so forceful
about it.
... All I want is a warm bed, a kind word, and UNLIMITED POWER....
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: THIEDE
|Date: 19 Apr 96 05:09:00
EID:64f2 20932920
MSGID: 1:116/19 03672C14
AS> And of course, if that fragment of Matthew IS from 70 to 100
AS> AD, it makes it much more likely to be true, simply because
AS> when it gained general circulation, there were many people
AS> who could remember the events...teenagers at the time of the
AS> Crucifixion who might remember the nine-day Galilean wonder
AS> who waltzed into town and was later killed.
MB> Whistling past the graveyard.
MB> "In a recent article, however, Carsten Thiede, a German
MB> papyrologist, has proposed that the Magdalen gragments
MB> may be dated to the mid-first century (1995). His
MB> theory is based on the observation that these fragments
MB> were written in uncial script (upright, block letters, a
MB> practice that was generally abandoned during the course
MB> of the first century. In order to make his case, Thiede
So far, so good...
MB> has argued: (1) that the script is similar to some Greek
MB> texts from Pompey and Herculaneum that have been dated
MB> to the first century; (2) that a Greek fragment found
Yes, comparative papyrus styles are needed to establish a timeline...
MB> among the Dead Sea Scrolls was from the Gospel of Mark,
MB> showing that there must have been a deposit of Christian
MB> writings with the Essenes before the destruction of the
MB> temple; and (3) that, if early Christians were so oriented
Is this essential to Thiede's case about Matthew, or is it a side issue?
MB> to texts and so concerned about preserving their written
MB> gospels, they must have started using codices about that
MB> time. The conclusion Thiede wants to draw from this
MB> argumentation is that the Gospel of Matthew must have
MB> been written mid-first century by a disciple who had known
MB> Jesus and was still alive to record that history as it
MB> actually happened. What is more, since the fragments
MB> use an abbreviation for the proper name, Jesus, as well
MB> as for his designation as lord, Thiede thinks that his
MB> disciples must have recognized that the historical Jesus
MB> was in fact divine.
With the exception of the Mark thing, a relatively fair summation.
(Rereading.) No it isn't. Mid-first century implies 50 AD. I think the
earliest I have seen quoted for Thiede's claims is 70 AD. Maybe Mack's
being elastic in his terms...
MB> "Critical scholars will not be impressed. The fragments
MB> are easily explained as second-century texts; unicials could
MB> still have been used as late as 85 C.E., the traditional
MB> scholarly date for Matthew; Thiede's Dead Sea Scrolls scenario
WAIT a second. Second century or first century? 85 AD is first century.
He's giving two different answers.
MB> is preposterous; his theory about the Markan fragment among
Why?
MB> the Dead Sea Scrolls has been discredited; and the mass of
I think it rather unlikely myself. But on what grounds, "discredited"?
MB> detailed scholarship on the origins and history of the early
MB> Christian movements and their writings has simply been
MB> swept aside in the eager pursuit of a chimera. From a
It would help a lot more if Mack simply told us which evidence refutes
Thiede. As of yet, he hasn't...it's an appeal to authority. The mass of
physicists thought one could go faster than light, until
Michaelson-Morley's experiments and Einstein's theories showed them they
couldn't....
MB> critical scholar's point of view, Thiede's proposal is an
MB> example of just how desperate the Christian imagination
MB> can become in the quest to argue for the literal facticity
MB> of the Christian gospels."
"desperate"? It sounds more like bluster to me, Marilyn. Bluff. Argument
from invective and authority. Not evidence.
MB> from: Prologue: The mystique of
MB> sacred scripture
MB> _Who Wrote the New
MB> Testament_ by Burton Mack
MB> So, it looks to me like Thiede's rantings are just so much wishful
MB> thinking.
Funny. I was thinking the same of Mack's.
Didn't you notice he did not give us ONE FACT to refute Thiede? All he had
that really addressed the issue is...
MB> are easily explained as second-century texts; unicials could
MB> still have been used as late as 85 C.E., the traditional
I'm unclear on whether he thinks Matthew is first or second century, but
if he DOES think it is second century, the best way to refute Thiede is
to
show an example of that sort of writing IN THE SECOND CENTURY. Otherwise,
he is just saying, "Well, you can't PROVE it's wrong...."
The thing about a fragment of Mark in the Dead Sea Scroll seems, at best
irrelevant, at worst, a red herring to deliberately confuse the issue.
If Thiede has been wrong on something before (and what scholar hasn't?)
how does that impact the Magdalen fragments of Matthew? How does a
possible fragment of MArk in the Dead Sea Scrolls, pro or con, affect a
fragment of Matthew?
"Rantings"? "Wishful thinking"? The only ranting and wishful thinking I
see here is Mack's.
I still want to read Mack. But the above is not giving me a great deal
of confidence in him.
... At first they burn books. Eventually they burn people.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:08:00
EID:08d0 20932100
MSGID: 1:116/19 036730F6
AS> That's the real reason the Middle Ages had the Crusades, the
AS> Inquisition, witch hunts, the Rack, etc. No caffeine.
RS> You know, you might have something here . . . the Mid East is closer
RS> to Arabic countries, that did have coffee from my understanding,
RS> therefor the Crusades would be in keeping with this. The Inquisition
RS> was strongest near countries that were or once were Islamic, again we
RS> see cultures that used the coffee bean . . . don't see a connection
RS> between the Witch hunts and caffiene, unless someone wanted to know
RS> how to brew a better pot of coffee. But the whole conquest of the New
RS> World had to be a quest for caffiene, both as coffee beans, but also
RS> as the (New World Only) source for chocolate. There were desperate
RS> enough to drink hot unsweetened chocolate back in the middle ages .
.
RS> . };)
That's pretty desperate. The theory of the buzz, that history moves in the
way of the most caffeine. I'm sure there is a thesis lurking here,
somewhere...
... I used to believe in reincarnation, but that was in another life.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: [1/2] ALLEGORY
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:09:00
EID:92a8 20932120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0367348E
AS> But the point was, Ptolemy's claims were taken as Gospel for over a
AS> thousand years...a thousand years where people accepted both the
DC> "(T)aken as Gospel"?
DC> Very nice choice of wording, Al! I don't think I could have
DC> done better. At least not in 2,000 yrs...
ROFL! Well, excuse me while I shoot myself in the OTHER foot....
That completely slipped past me.
... I'm sorry...were the voices in my head bothering you?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:02:00
EID:6d62 20932040
MSGID: 1:116/19 03673830
AS> protagonists--STILL FARMS ON FOXFIELD, about Quaker settlers in a
AS> world called Foxfield. In it, she sacrifices none of her pacifism,
JB> That one rings a bell, but I can't say that I read it...maybe only a
JB> review of it.
DOOR INTO OCEAN was good, though....
JB> I'd suggest 'The Peaceable Kingdom' and 'The Lamb's War', both by Jan
JB> de Hartog. However, the Quaker fiction out there doesn't come close
to
JB> the journals of the people who were there at the beginning. (Boring
as
JB> they can be in places.)
I might look those up...
... If you shoot a mime,should you use a silencer?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 19 Apr 96 09:08:00
EID:42e5 20934900
MSGID: 1:116/19 04355FDA
AS> Okay, Marty, I hereby elevate you to the ranks of God Dan and
AS> others. You now have omnipotence.
AS> Now, make me a square circle.
AS> Take your time.
MG> Nonsense. I'm not perfect. Elevate me if you like, but I still don;t
MG> know how to do it. The perfect god should though.
What if it's un-doable? What if a perfect god decides it's a meaningless
noise? Let's try another one; can a perfect god make a black white?
(Talking pure color here, not races.) Not gray. Not stripes. Not patterns.
MG> Why is a square cirlce any different from a worldwide flood?
Well, bear in mind that I don't believe such a flood happened save in the
sense of parable or metaphor...
But seriously, there IS no reason why an omnipotent God could not drop
several hydrospheres of water here out of nowhere. Or wisk them away
later. But if He DID, He wouldn't cover the traces. God is under no
compulsion to lie. And thus, I conclude that the flood story had to be
parable or metaphor.
There is nothing logically inconsistent about the basic creating several
hydrospheres of water thing. That makes it a whole 'nother thing than a
square circle. Now, if you told me that God really DID flood the Earth,
and yet the land beneath the waves stayed dry, THAT would be LOGICALLY
inconsistent. See?
... No wanna work. Wanna bang on keyboard.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 19 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:42e5 20934880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04356C1E
AS> Okay. I will get it for you within two weeks' time, if not
AS> before. (I'm writing this on Saturday the 13th). I should
AS> have go to the library, at the latest, by the 27th.)
MG> There is no rush as I have a plenty to do as it is. Now tht the boys
MG> are starting to play baseball we're going to be out every night.
I can understand THAT. How old are your boys, BTW? Mine are 12, 10, and
7.
MG> I did get to your web site though and read through it. No pic ad not
MG> net address to send nasty comments to....
NO PICTURES????? NO NET ADDRESS????
Oh, waitasecond. You must have JUST been looking at the anthropic
principles page. Follow the links back to my home page. Go towards the
bottom, past the picture of C.S. Lewis, the Yahoo Search tool, and there
is a mailbox to click on to send me a message. Trust me, if I had any more
pictures on my main page, it would take too long to download. I didn't
bother to put a lot of pictures on the anthropic principle stuff...where
am I going to find a picture that represents the Beryllium Bottleneck? If
you want, I can add spinning stars or something....
Maybe I should put a mailbox there on the anthropic principle page,
there, but I just assumed people would follow the link back to the home
page.
... Forgive many things in others; nothing in yourself.-Ausonius
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 19 Apr 96 09:05:00
EID:47ac 209348a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 043576A0
AS> (Grinding my teeth while saying this.) Well, I can't PROVE he's
AS> not. He certainly thinks he is doing God's work. But I can't
AS> say he's not a "real, true Christian". A lot of "real true
AS> Christians" led pogroms against the Jews. Torquemada was a
AS> "real, true Christian" in that sense. There is enough doubt
MG> Such is my point. Someone else might quote scripture to show why you
MG> are not a true Christian. It's all opinion. It would be difficult to
MG> meet all the criteria in the bible to convince everyone.
No question. Even Jesus didn't convince everyone.
... That was Zen, this is Tao.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 19 Apr 96 09:03:00
EID:2add 20934860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04358B36
AS> (Not the most fortunate analogy you could have made, for your
AS> side of the argument, Marty. But I liked it.)
MG> The point is, that there is physical evidence of the wood and none for
MG> any "reason" that it might be here other than guesswork. Such is the
MG> nature of evidence. It is not guesswork. we don't claim that "it's
MG> unlikely tht the universe formed by itself without a designer. We have
MG> no solid evidence to say that.
We didn't have solid evidence to deduce the existence of a ninth planet,
save in the way the outer planets' orbits were perturbed. We have no solid
evidence of cosmological inflation but it answers quite a few problems at
one stroke, so the presumption is there. We have no real evidence for
Hawking's no-boundary proposal, but he makes a case for it anyway.
MG> All I can say for the Anthropic Principle is "Why would two airplanes
MG> have a midair collision?"
Pilot error? As in free will? If the anthropic principle shows that the
Creator values intelligent life, the stress must be on intelligent. Thus
we are given coices, and must abide by them. You don't gain intelligence
by being forcefed knowledge. Sometimes you have to find out for yourself.
Now, a being in a universe where everything varied quite alarmingly with
the whim of a creator, would be intolerable...with all the consistency of
a dream, things morphing from one thing to another. Hence regular laws of
science. Hence a chance to learn from those laws, and deduce things from
them. But one cannot have consistent laws without sometimes getting
danger. You cannot have water, which is quite helpful, without the
capacity to drown in it. You can't have air without the capacity to have
one airplane run into the other.
... Good arguement. Too bad it was killed by all those vicious facts.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: the problem with Chri
|Date: 18 Apr 96 22:54:00
EID:7164 2092b6c0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 36968b13
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895F0E2D
>EF> Hey, come to think about it, that UniBomber dude
>EF> is one sincere mother
> The funny thing about this is that my local newspaper spelled the
> name of the bomber: "Unabomber"! It occurred both in the title
> of the article as well as the body.
"Unabomber" is the correct spelling. Go figure.
> ... "But we decide which is right & which is an illusion."
> -- Moody Blues
"Red is gray, and yellow, white. But we decide which one is right.
"And which IS an illusion?"
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Moody Blue Wave 2112
Rush out and buy a copy. ;-)
[GONG]
---
* Origin: Theological is not. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Ralph Jansen
|Sub: Omni-impotence
|Date: 18 Apr 96 23:28:01
EID:2a92 2092bb80
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 36968b14
REPLY: 1:398/1.0 316ff510
>MK> order...creation was his idea, and everything was
>MK> pre-planned to be this way by Him a long time ago.
> Very good...you have come to understand it. In the whole view of
> life, there is no free will.
[...] Then you proceed to state:
> The only thing that there is to hold on to is free will. Well to the
> human it is free will because he does not know what will happen, or
> what choice he will make.
Paraphrased: There is no free will, so you have to pretend that
there is, so that you can make a choice that has already been made.
Hence, no choice to be made at all. Does your head spin when you
try to think, Ralph?
You also said:
> You are weak, and stupid next to this God, and yet you think
> that you can figure Him out, or even reason Him away.
[precisely what you are attempting to do; thereby implying that
you believe yourself to be stupid] No argument from me.
> First of all, where does it say that He yearns to be worshipped. I
> mean, in an insecure way. If you were a god, and you created
> someone, and they go worship a rock because they believe it created
> them, how would you feel?
By your "reasoning" above, he is responsible for everything that
he creates, as he knows in advance how it will turn out.
Explain how an omnipotent/omniscient god can be "a jealous god".
If he knows in advance how it will turn out, not even he can change
it. If he did, that would entail that he was mistaken in what he
"knew" before - as it would turn out differently. Hence, WRONG.
An omniscient god could not be wrong about anything.
Not even an omnipotent god could change what is predestined
(required, in order for omniscience to be valid). Therefor,
omnipotence can not co-exist with omniscience; as nothing could
be changed from what is already known to be precisely so.
Seeing how omniscience precludes omnipotence, you will either:
a.) Have to choose between one concept or the other (or neither)
b.) or continue to defy reality by stupidly believing both/either
to be valid concepts.
Hints:
Omnipotence makes anything possible, including impossibility.
Bam. Just invalidated itself.
Omniscience would require that everything occur exactly as known.
That means that the omniscient being is also powerless to change
what has to be. It places future into past, by having already
declared it in its entirety. This means that your god would have
to know what he knows before he will even already know it.
Circularly contradictory. Omnicience precludes the conditional.
Hence, if you use the concept of "if"; you contradict your own
belief in omniscience/predestination.
> He has every right to have all of His creation worship Him.
> He made it all, and He is God
If he is in all time simultaneously, we were made at the same time
as him. Nothing could be any different than it is/was/will be.
That's just a hint of how bogus your "omni" concepts are.
They blow themselves apart by their own design.
Besides, man created God in his own image(s) of what they wished
to portray of their dogmatic concepts. Man continues to change
the constructs of said god, as evidenced by your differing views
from other Christian denominations.
Oh yeah. Have a nice day, Ralph. Try not to think too hard.
If you did, your day would turn out really rotten - and your
Christian friends would condemn you for turning away from their
prepackaged contradictory dogma.
---
* Origin: The death of dogma is the birth of reality. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Starwyn
|Sub: test
|Date: 18 Apr 96 23:36:02
EID:9c64 2092bc80
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 36968b15
> Is this getting out?
Nope. Didn't see a damned thing.
I think we'll need to see many more attempts at posting here
from our illustrious high priestess before declaring this
post as a success. ;-)
> I'd like to order a large pizza please, with nothing on it.
Too late. I already sneezed.
"Make me one with everything" - some Zen Buddhist
---
* Origin: Out in the Styx - Eugene OR USR 28.8 (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 20 Apr 96 11:00:03
EID:75d1 20945800
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 378a980d
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31768993
Re: George's attempt at humor
> This echo has been the victim of the grandest practical joke
> I've ever seen.
What was practical about it?
[...]
> John's book is safe and sound - in my possession. It was
> mailed on the 10th, and arrived (after, actually, I recieved
> netmail and talked to george on the phone) on the 17th.
> With it came enclosed a US$1, which will be forwarded
> to John as well.
[...]
> As promised, a formal apology follows this message, and I,
> on my own volition, ask Styx for clemency in light of this
> new information.
Color me stubborn, but we've all had enough of George's "practical"
jokes to warrant that he seek a forum other than this one to perform
them in.
> John, if you want your book straightaway, let me know;
> either way, it will be on its way to you very shortly.
Ask John if "all's well that ends well".
While he will no doubt be relieved to receive his property,
I doubt very much that he found the ordeal to be any "funnier"
than what I did (i.e. not).
---
* Origin: Out in the Styx - Eugene OR USR 28.8 (1:152/20)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Orphan Children need God
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:58:46
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b382
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 317261a0
PID: FM 2.02
> Sorry about the header . . . it was just a minor troll to catch
> everyone's attention. You all can stop salivating now . . . };)
Flameus Interruptus!
> Richard Smith is my real name, and I'm posting this from my BBS, to
> which I've just added HolySmoke, so those FIDO operators out there can
> check their nodelists to verify this. My FIDO address is 1:203/9046.
I
> can also be reached via e-mail at richard.smith@9046.gigo.com or
> richard.smith@syrundry.gigo.com in case anyone wants to.
Great! I'm adding your ass to my card file. I'm frice@stbbs.com. I'll
e-mail you some information now, as a matter of fact.
> I'm most curious, for instance, about
> the thing concerning George . . . if anyone want's to give me a
> capsulization of the high points, that would be cool.
Oh that's easy. George is a smuck! How's _that_ for short and to the point?
~*~ Lie, Billy. Lie for the lord. - Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Airbags & Mother-in-laws
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:12:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b383
PID: FM 2.02
>>SS> Anyway, one of my fundie workmates had the audacity to
>>SS> tell me that the wreck was just god trying to get my
>>SS> attention.
Couldn't the fuck just send a postcard?!
dr> I would have kicked her in her balls and then told her god
dr> told me to to get her attention--- same excuse, same evidence.
You _do_ need a lesson in female human...
~*~ NAH NAH NNNah nah.... - Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: You Can Get Help
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:13:37
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b384
PID: FM 2.02
> Please call 1-800-215-9377 or visit their Internet site at
> http://www.impotent.com
>
> You're welcome.
Check your oil level, man! You're starting to behave like me!
~*~ "...this would be the best of all possible worlds, if
there were no religion in it." - John Adams
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: BBS in the back ground.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:15:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b385
REPLY: 1:271/460 3173df12
PID: FM 2.02
> Just noticed yesterday that I am having problems with the FrontDoor
> running in the background. I get timeouts while sending or recieving
> files in the background. No problem at all while in the foreground. Any
> ideas?
Did you create a PIF file, you inbred moron? (Just trying to help.)
~*~ 2 Kings
6:28 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she
answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may
eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow.
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Watch Jesse Christ Jones
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:21:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b386
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31743286
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I haven't seen it yet either. It's doubtful that the fundy
FR> learned from his previous mistakes so I'll just continue to
FR> look for it.
sq> I'm about overdue to rattle his cage.
It appears as though his well was poisoned enough that he elected not to.
I seriously doubt that he's finally admitted that Easter has nothing to
do with his cult. Now we'll have to wait for Thanksgiving.
sq> Every time he comes in here saying how he's going to "combat
sq> the evil," I have to stifle my yawns.
I don't! it's _classic_ fundytude. It brings a smile to my
face and a soft chuckle, often with a shake of the head in wonderment.
sq> The poor bastard doesn't even have the first clue
sq> as to what evil - really- is.
Um... That would be religion. Do I win a prize?
sq> If a "gang bang echo" (as he puts it) is the worst thing of
sq> which humanity is capable, then the planet is in good shape.
sq> However, I find Mr. Jones's view to be limited, at best.
Well, he's not going anywhere. He'll make another mistake, open his yap,
and demand another pagan holiday as his cult's own soon enough.
~*~ The wheels of scientific inquiry and discovery
are greased by caffeine. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: ryan shaw
|Sub: Christanics murdering
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:23:06
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b387
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 1745b366
PID: FM 2.02
> ALBANY [that's Oregon] -- A manslaughter trial began Monday for a
> Brownsville couple whose son died of leukemia after they refused, for
> religious reasons, to allow him to have medical treatment.
> Prospective jurors were questioned about their religious beliefs Monday
> in the trial of Loyd and Christina Hays.
I wonder why they would ask that question if not to tailor the jury.
~*~ But your juvenile campaign of attacking and deriding people of
religious faith may be doing incalculable damage -- for which you
will stand accountable before the ultimate reality.
- Jesse C. Jones (HolySmoke forum)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: The Apocalypse NOT
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:25:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b388
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 31742b9c
PID: FM 2.02
BA> He is to be esteemed, as he is the original
BA> part of the Vine: I have been grafted on.
rs> Firstly, that is actually Dionysus, and
rs> secondly, isn't that a tad homoerotic?
Welcome back!
BA> What are you going to do for him?
Debunk fundies.
~*~ I'm sorry I refuse to answer your question. - Marguerite Kendall
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: I find it amazing
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:29:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b389
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 31742c52
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I'm finding it amazing that so many Christians are
FR> unwilling to accept the fact that Adolf Hitler was a
FR> Christian. I expected fundies to deny the truth and yet
rs> Ignorance is bliss, and pretended ignorance is ecstasy, I guess.
It's not as if this one destroys the cult entirely, though. Yes, it's an
embarrassment, but they should just get over it.
Next they'll start denying that Jim Jones was a Christian.
~*~ We are all in need of salvation. I may not know you, but knowing you
are an atheist, I know you need to be saved. It must be extremely
difficult to be an atheist? - Scott Shiflett, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: What George did
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:30:19
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38a
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 31745e40
PID: FM 2.02
rs> I've been away a while and missed the whole thing . . . any chance I
rs> can get a copy of those archived bits pertaining to George
The archives are up to 48meg and I have yet to create a search engine.
Unless I'm asked to provide the information for court, and until I write
a search engine which will extract the messages from the archives, it's
an effort I'm not willing to engage in.
~*~ ARE YOU WILLING TO SUBJECT ALL PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE YOUR VIEWS TO YOUR
TORTURES? EVEN IF THEY ARE YOUR OWN CHILDREN? - David Stoddard
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get over it.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:33:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38b
REPLY: 1:116/19 0486D720
PID: FM 2.02
EF> For those interested in such things, a quick analysis of
EF> Fred's question might be in order. It is fascinating in
EF> that there is much more here than one might detect at first
EF> glance.
JH> If you're going to persue this you need to archive each and
JH> every message. Fred will run you around a 40 acre field and
JH> end up claiming he never made the original statement.
JH> Either that or he will "prove" that you are Jim Staal.
as> Maybe you should wonder what sort of reputation you are building here,
I'm not in the least bit concerned. We've already seen that Adolf
Hitler was undeniably a Christian and that Christian churches officially
were in agreement with Hitler's agenda. Trying to concoct elaborate "explanations"
for his Christianity which deny the truth after the man has been dead for
decades by those uncomfortable with the embarrassing truth should be enough
to indicate who's exposing the truth of the matter.
It's easy calling a dead man a liar, huh?
~*~ To have an understanding of the universe one doesn't need
scientific technology. - Andrew Conner (A New Age Creationist)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: What sex are you?
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:38:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38c
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3174e8bc
PID: FM 2.02
FR> The film star Jamie Lee Curtis is one well-known individual who
FR> is genetically male, but phenotypically female.
FR> Pub Date: 3/17/96
rs> You know, I was rocking along with this thing pretty good when I hit
rs> the Jamie Lee Curtis bump and all hell broke loose around here . . .
rs> };) Has this been substantiated? Jamie Lee Curtis? C'mon, say it
rs> isn't so . . .
This article cam across my desk in the early morning hours and I was tickled
by it enough to post it without comment nor a check in the files archives
to see if there's anything else on this phenomena. It seems to have something
important to say about Christanic death cultists wanting to demand that
gays pick their sexuality.
As for Curtis, my guess is you'll have to ask it. }:-}
~*~ The stronger the supernatural beliefs, the worse the inhumanity.
- James A. Haught
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Chinese are all dead.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:46:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38d
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5c0c9f73
PID: FM 2.02
FR> You've obviously never learn geology, paleontology, archeology, or
FR> asked why the Chinese failed to notice their own obliteration.
dm> The Chinese are a notoriously stubborn people.
FR> So much so over a billion of them refuse to be dead? According
FR> to this Creationist lunatic, they should all be.
kw> Why Fred, they just held their breath.
kw> They knew that the Christian missionaries would come to save
kw> their souls, if they just could hold out long enough.
Could that explain their skin coloration? (Running away covering ass.)
~*~ A year long global flood? Sure...Why is there no evidence then? - ML
Umm... "the evidence was destroyed in the flood." - Styx Allum
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Shrinking Sun occultism
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:51:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38e
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a28717bd
PID: FM 2.02
> FR> When I first saw the "Shrinking Sun Theory" some years ago,
> FR> (as told to me by a creationist on a BBS) a rate of
> FR> approximately 1% per year was given. A book titled, "Our
> FR> Turbulent Sun" was the source of this idea. In chapter 6,
> FR> "The Shrinking Sun", creationists took statements like the
> FR> following:
[...cuts...]
kw> Are you telling me that the fundies believe in an
kw> Omniwhateverittakes God who cant even make a Sun
kw> that isn't shrinking?
Welp, see, the Christanic deity constructors planned it that way. Why create
a god that creates a Sun that'll run nuclear main stage for 40 billion years
if it's only needed for a few thousand? Heathens would call their deity
construct wasteful.
kw> What happened, did God wash it in all that hot water from the flood?
The Sun wouldn't even notice dropping several Earths into it other than
with perhaps a minor burp.
kw> 'Lord, but male deities are dumb.'
Welp, look at who created them.
~*~ Ok, please explain the difference between facts and truth - J. Conwell
Facts are what the educated accept as truth.
Truths are what fundies are told to accept as fact. - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Bill Wolff
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:53:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38f
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 dd715f8e
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Carl Sagan's mouth.
em> While looking at this, it occurred to me that if you count
em> forward from the bottom of the alphabet to the middle letter
em> in "Sagan", and then count backward the same number of
em> letters from the top of the alphabet and replace the middle
em> letter with the resultant letter, you get the name of a
em> fictitious biblical character!
Don't say that too loud or Christanics will violate the Constitution pretending
to "save the christian!" from scientists.
~*~ Butting heads with fundies is best left to Goats - Styx Allum
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Trosch
|Sub: Relig/Free Speech Lawsuit
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:55:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b390
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89624389
PID: FM 2.02
> Christians should soon expect to be required to profess:
> 1. Human beings do not exist from the moment of conception!
> 2. Abortion is not murder!
> 3. All religious beliefs need government approval!
Ah, yes. Pretend that Christanic death cultists are going to have to register
with the state and that they're going to be persecuted and executed...
How typical.
My guess is that your masters need new cars and are whipping the ignorant
unwashed rabble into a paying frenzie to "fight this evil!" Right?
~*~ "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a
revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales,
legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation
that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: The Raven
|Sub: False Prophets (Like there are true ones?)
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:57:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b391
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d1
PID: FM 2.02
> "This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
Comrad Raven! Long time no!
>> BEWARE!
>> David J. Smith (Newswatch magazine) is a Zionist stooge.
FR> Yes, Jim. We know. We are too.
Every bigot is Jim Staal until proven otherwise. The FY factor.
tr> Should we let him know that just about everyone on this echo is a
tr> zionist stooge? That way maybe he's hie his ass out the door...
I won't be a Zionist stooge until I get paid for the last three months.
~*~ What is more important to you, the basis of ethics or that they exist?
- Simon Ewins
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGLED FUNDY
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:00:52
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b392
REPLY: 1:3819/163 3175D070
PID: FM 2.02
mb> No I know the truth, I just can not adequately explain it to you.
FR> The truth requires no one to explain, Mark, merely present it.
mb> The truth is in the Bible.
Oh? Which version of the "resurrection" myth is true and which is a Satanic
lie? Which version of the "genesis" mythologies is true and which is a
Satanic lie?
mb> Your Brother in Christ,
FR> Here you are trying to give your intellectual superiors an Alpha Male
FR> construct. Don't you think that's pretty ignorant?
mb> No I am trying to be freindly.
No, you're trying to include your intellectual superiors in your deadly
ideological constructs. You concocted an unreachable Alpha Male construct
to idolize and -- when you find that people stronger and smarter than you
don't need fictional constructs to bow down and worship -- you try to include
them in your delusion.
After all, can't have everyone pointing at you and laughing, now can we?
~*~ I believe that baptism is a good thing,
with a little soap. - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:02:42
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b393
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 176d0cd2
PID: FM 2.02
tlp> Speaking of bounced messages, I have no idea why this one bounced!
FR> No doubt it was the Conspiracy who drive those black helicopters
FR> that are out to destroy you.
tlp> Perhaps I'm getting forgetful in my dotage but,
tlp> I don't recognize what this is supposed to be about.
You won't be given back your memories until you hand over the negatives.
~*~ What is so amazing about a baby being born from a virgin? - James Conwell
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CHRISTANIC BLOW JOBS
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:05:21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b394
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89640E26
PID: FM 2.02
FR> local elections are _far_ more important than pretending to vote for
a
FR> president. That may change depending on how the line-item veto is used.
dc> Line item veto is the only way that accountabilty
dc> for the bad laws and riders can be assessed.
I've certainly complained about good laws getting canned due to riders and
this does seem to be a good way to solve the problem. Still, it grants
a level of power, as I understand, never before given a president.
~*~ By the way, I could prove Carl Sagan wrong, but
what would it get me? - Bill Wolff
Debunked, as usual. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:07:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b395
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31768993
PID: FM 2.02
> This echo has been the victim of the grandest practical joke I've
> ever seen.
> George got you, got you, got you, and got me too. And our little
> dogs, too.
> John's book is safe and sound - in my possession. It was mailed on
> the 10th, and arrived (after, actually, I recieved netmail and
> talked to george on the phone) on the 17th. With it came enclosed a
> US$1, which will be forwarded to John as well.
George is shit. It wasn't a joke. He got called to task for his extortion
then demanded it was just a joke.
~*~ No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you were
gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not have
happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ralph Jansen
|Sub: Christian death cult
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:20:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b396
REPLY: 1:398/1.0 3176c0e6
PID: FM 2.02
AH> It's Easter, folks. About 2,000 years ago, Jesus came out
AH> of his hole, and saw his shadow. Six weeks of bad weather
AH> followed.
DR> And twenty centuries of death, misery, and unimaginable agony at
DR> the hands of the people claiming to follow Jesus' teachings.
rj> That does seem to be a problem doesn't it.
There's an understatement.
rj> They only claim to follow Jesus' teachings,
rj> yet their lives show otherwise.
No, actually the actions of Christians historically denote what Christianity
is all about, just as the actions of the KKK denotes what the KKK is all
about. Pretending that Christanic death cultists aren't engaged in and haven't
engaged in what they do is nonsense.
"The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because
thereby Christ himself is glorified." -- Saint Bernard
of Clairvaux
Historically the Christanic death cult "followed" the "Jesus" mythos in
lock step all the way. That's what happens when you concoct a fictional
construct to justify inhuman tyrannies against innocent people.
ACTIONS, not WORDS, Ralph. Let's not forget that.
rj> So why must it be said that that is all Christianity has to show.
The 'baby' doesn't exist in Christanity. It was a myth
designed to justify the bath water. - Fredric Rice
Nazi Germany fascism also had some good points. Christainity has been and
continues to be the single worse tyranny inflicted against humanity bar
none. Only disease has claimed to fame over religion's murdering others.
That's not to single out the Christanic death cult, I might add. Islamic
crazies are quickly approaching Christanity's body count and Judaism also
has bloody hands.
rj> Remember, Christians say that there is
rj> sin in the world, and that no one is free of it.
And they use that deadly ideological fiction to justify the murder of innocent
people. That's the whole swatting point!
rj> If someone only says that they follow Jesus, but have
rj> not been changed, then they cannot do what He says.
Since no one knows what the "Jesus" myth said, it's easy to put words in
the fictional construct's mouth -- that's what the Christanic death cult
was created for, after all.
~*~ Christ will come sameday. - Leonard Bernier
And that's even better than overnight. - DON MARTIN
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: BBS in the back ground.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:21:22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b397
REPLY: 1:271/460 3177bd61
PID: FM 2.02
KM>> the foreground. Any ideas?
rs> Pray to your god. He should be able to fix it, should he not?
km> But then I wouldn't learn anything would I?
You never even try to. Doubt it? Drink up.
~*~ I had two margaritta's, and was eyeing the women like
a deer eyes oncoming headlights. - David Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ric Carter
|Sub: Fertility rituals!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:25:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b398
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Well, tonight's the night that we hide reproductive
FR> organs around the place for our offspring to search
FR> for in the morning. Anyone still pretending it has
FR> something to do with Christianity?
rc> Let's see, Jeshua rode into Jerusalem atop a giant rabbit that
rc> laid magic eggs all along its path, by which miracle he fed the
rc> starving multitudes, who them proclaimed him the Creator of Egg
rc> McMuffins and strewed pink excelsior on the roadways, whilst
...cuts...
You know, your version at least is consistant. The Christanic versions
conflict with each other. }:-}
~*~ I live to defend in this scum hole. - Richard Thorneycroft (HolySmoke)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: "No True Christian...
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:26:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b399
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895E0E30
PID: FM 2.02
EF> True, you deny this in so many words, but then you turn around and
EF> claim: 'this is what the Bible (or God) says!'
JG> I always clarify at times like these, that this is how I personally
JG> interpret the bible. AT no time do I say everyone has to agree with
JG> me.
dc> I personally interpret the bible as a collection of 1/2 truths,
dc> lies and mythology. Therefore, my interpretation is just as
dc> correct as yours. Moreso, as the errors and lies of the bible
dc> can be shown to be there.
But then "Satan" guides your hands as you turn the pages of his paper idol.
~*~ Yes, I'd bow down before your god... to make sure that the
bastard was dead. - Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco rememberance: No one killed this year. Yet.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:28:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39a
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 16ee2010
PID: FM 2.02
KDM> Because the FBI wasn't responsible for the children being there.
tlp> Regardless of who's responsible for the kids being there, govt
tlp> was NOTjustified in running tanks thru the kid occupied residence.
Do you have any EVIDENCE that "the government" ran tanks through ANYONE'S
residence? Any at all? Or are you just gonna continue to shit out your
pretend conspiracy and ignore having to present evidence as usual?
~*~ Are you really this stupid, or is your medication wearing off?
- David Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: NBC's Airing of "The Mysterious Origins of Man"
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:29:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39b
REPLY: 1:115/769.2 cd955d0f
PID: FM 2.02
MG> Do you honestly think that we are as stupid as you Billy.
bw> No Martin. I know for a fact, that you are a silly little fool.
Certainly you do, Bill. You expected to be able to lie to us about Carl
Sagan being a Creationist and, when it was proven to be a lie, you got hurt
and resentful. You think we're just as stupid as you are. It turns out
that we're not.
~*~ Noah was not a Jew. He is the ancestor of the Jews and everyone else.
- Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: #HOLYSMOKE STILL GOING STRONG!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:32:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> What? Have I fucked up? }:-}
jb> Didn't you forget some people? Like those in the Mountain Zone?
What's East of California doesn't exist.
~*~ He'd ask "Have the cops been hot?" and sometimes I'd say "Yes"
and he'd get nervous and leave.
-- Debra Murphree, refering to Jimmy Swaggart
(Penthouse magazine, July 1988)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Terry Parker: FBI doesn't know him else they're not talking.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:40:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39d
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Does this list consist of a lot of right-wing extremist lunatics who
FR> LIE about how mysterious invisible tanks drive over invisible
jb> Does TLP post from Florida? (I'm still not very
jb> good at reading node numbers)
I never looked into where he posts from. At first guess I would say "Montana."
But the right-wing extremists in my archives are located all around
the country. The BATF official report indicates that few states lack these
self-proclaimed "militias." I do know that Linda Thompson is one of his
buddies and I have _extensive_ archives on Thompson and her group.
jb> We were in Jax this week (yes, I actually got out of the
jb> house for the first time in 2 years) and coming back from
jb> my daughter's grave I saw this huge religious complex.
jb> Called the 'Terry Parker' Baptist Church and the 'Terry
jb> Parker Baptist Church Recreation Center'.
Here at the CIA }:-} I did a little digging into what I could find on a
"Terry Liberty-Parker" and found some dated text to and from him. He's
not important enough to warrant special mention in any of my FBI file document
searches and requests to FBI officers result in either no response, a statement
that self- professed "militias" are of concern and are being evaluated in
terms of domestic security, or responses which state that Parker isn't in
their computer. The BATF appears to be taking these lunatics as seriously
as the FBI does.
It's been some time since I last searched. I think I'll run through it
again this afternoon.
~*~ Gay people are worshipers of SATIN - Don Ward
Some prefer silk. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:47:05
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39e
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1bc
PID: FM 2.02
EF> Now I'm not saying that no extermination of the
EF> mentally ill, and no sterilization took place prior to
EF> 1933. I don't know - nor does it bear on the
EF> discussion. But the facts in action are that if such
EF> things DID occur. they didn't happen in _Nazi_ Germany
EF> - by definition.
fr> Amazing.
ef> Yes indeed, Fred. History can be amazing once you study it.
I suspect that you're trying to demand that "by definition" the extermination
of the mentally insane didn't happen "under Nazi Germany" because you want
to believe that Hitler's party didn't come to power until well after the
program was launched.
That's utterly dishonest. It's an attempt to detract from the undeniable
fact that Hitler was a Christian in an obscure (and totally dishonest) way.
It ignores all the references I've posted to the contrary.
I find it amazing that so many people are embarrassed by the truth that
Hitler was a Christian to the point where they must concoct elaborate "explanations"
for his Christanity decades after he's dead while glibly ignoreing outright
the historic documents to the contrary.
It's easy to call a dead man a liar and not have to worry about a rebuttle.
~*~ First we'll spank your big behinds.. then we'll
twist your little minds... - Styx
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Resentful idiot?
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:50:19
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39f
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1c5
PID: FM 2.02
EF> Now I'm not saying that no extermination of the
EF> mentally ill, and no sterilization took place prior to
EF> 1933. I don't know - nor does it bear on the
EF> discussion. But the facts in action are that if such
EF> things DID occur. they didn't happen in _Nazi_ Germany
EF> - by definition.
fr> Amazing.
fr> You don't happen to believe that the Jewish
fr> Holocaust didn't either, do you?
[...cuts...]
ef> Once his hidden premise is seen, we can see Fred's question
ef> is a type of interrogation fallacy: a "have you stopped beating
ef> your wife?" question. It is a ploy common to lawyers and politicians.
Oh dear. Next you'll accuse me of being a Nazi.
People who deny the extermination of the mentally ill and the politically
unsavory under the Nazi Germany reich have and continue to deny the fact
of the Jewish Holocaust, Ellidiott. My query is an honest one -- and yet
for some mysterious reason you elected not to answer it.
Gee. 'Wonder why.
~*~ "Thank you, God...may I have another?" - Steve Quarrella
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Denial is silly.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:54:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a0
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1ce
PID: FM 2.02
fr> What's interesting is that you elected to ignore all
fr> the direct quotes from Adolf Hitler that I posted
fr> and all the signatories by official Christian churches
fr> which stated agreement with Hitler's plans.
ef> To quote you: "amazing." Despite the plain evidence to
ef> the contrary (note my post reproduced below, the one you
ef> deny exists) you claim I "ignored" your quotes.
Do you have any evidence that I claimed a post of yours doesn't exist?
What we find is that you ignored out-of-hand (twice!) the quotes I posted
which Hitler himself stated. When I pointed the fact out to you, you eventually
elected to address each of the quotes -- again passing them off as "propaganda"
and lies.
Let's not try to rewrite history yet again, okay?
Your belated "rebuttles" to each of the quotes were little better than "is
not!" When it was pointed out to you that the S. S. had to state their
belief in deity constructs, you glibly pouted "I don't see any mention of
the Christian gods, do you?" in an attempt to foister the absurd notion
that Hitler and his S. S. were some how believers in some other gods and
not the Christian gods. That's a dishonesty worthy of a Creationist. It
ignores the _OTHER_ quote you previously ignored about the percentage of
individuals under Nazi Germany who were Christians. It ignores the quotes
by Hitler himself which specifically state that he was a Catholic. (There's
that calling dead people liars again.)
Unless you want to play pretend that Catholics aren't Christians at which
point there's the crux of your problem.
A little honesty would go a long way, Elliott. It's perfectly okay to admit
that being a Christian doesn't do a damn thing to stop someone from being
an inhuman tyrant. You're trying to defend Christianity's history by pretending
Hitler wasn't a Christian.
~*~ Picking my favorite Christian is like picking my
favorite debilitating disease >> - David Worrell
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: And the denials continue, I see.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:07:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a1
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1d8
PID: FM 2.02
ef> Here is the evidence again Fred.
Ah, yes. Ignore the truth straight from the mouth of Hitler and the Christian
churches he worked with, and then glibly spout, "Here. Read this instead."
It doesn't quite work like that, Elliott. The truth won't simply disappear
because you want to post belated denials long after the fact. And in fact
I see you do just that later:
ef> You are not required to answer or respond to it in any way - as
ef> per the last two times I posted it. This time, however, your
ef> non-response will be accepted as your plea of nolo: tacit
ef> admission that you cannot refute the evidence and stand corrected.
Amazing. After I rubbed your nose in not responding to the hurtful truth,
you _eventually_ offered your glib denials. In resentment you now demand
that -- not only did your "rebuttles" not get totally debunked but that
my responses were never typed up and mailed.
How so very nearly Creationist of you.
ef> The smoking gun is the nazis plan to destroy Christianity
ef> in Germany. They and started taking over churches to that
ef> end, forming the "National Reich Church"
Ah, yes... The wishful commentary of those who are embarrassed by the truth
long after the fact. How easy to deny the words of a dead man and ignore
the historic record as lies.
Let's ignore the words and actions of Hitler and his party entirely and
accept what was written about him to deny his Christianity long after his
death, right? Don't like the fact that Hitler said he was a Christian and
that Christian churches were signatory to his agenda and in full agreement?
Wait until he's been dead for decades and then write commentary while ignoring
the historic documents.
Amazing.
~*~ None of the people who claim to have found God have given us
any reason to accept that they have, indeed, found anything
but their own delusions. - Kelsey Bjarnason
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Jesse fucks up again and won't admit it
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:10:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a2
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 24683f44
PID: FM 2.02
FR> people like Jones drive the nation's expenses up, at least I and
FR> my sons won't have these lunatics to compete with in the job
FR> marketplace.
jcj> Don't write their applications for them, okay? It's "my sons and I."
FR> That's an interesting accusation yet I suspect you've stuffed
FR> your lawyer foot into your lawyer mouth. The inclusive case may
FR> be formed correctly using either syntax. You're probably
FR> suffering under the delusion that I typed "me and my sons."
jcj> Inclusive case?!? Sorry, I can't even
jcj> find such an animal in any work I have.
FR> Can't admit you're wrong, huh? Was the truth of what I said so
FR> hurtful that it's driven you to such resentment? (Gee, and I didn't
FR> even mention Christmas trees in that one.)
FR> Feel free to correct my spelling, lawyer, as I can use it. Yet when
FR> you fuck up, have the decorum to admit it -- if not to everyone else
FR> then at least to yourself.
jcj> Sputter all you want to, you illiterate asshole.
jcj> "I and my sons" is never correct grammar.
It's certain that your getting caught with your foot in your mouth is embarrassing,
Jesse, but you should at least keep your mouth shut after the fact to deny
the possibility of making your error worse.
But then you labor under a great many wishful self-delusions, don't you?
By the way: Get a job.
~*~ BUT... if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, until
I am proven wrong I am right. -- Zach Webb, HOLYSMOKE FidoNet
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: The Raven
|Sub: READ YOUR MESSAGE AGAIN, DICKWAD!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:14:15
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a3
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 317797df
PID: FM 2.02
TR> Why? You are certainly capable of such a tactless and idiotic
TR> maneuver. On top of it all, you are enough of a shitlip to
TR> actually do it.
FR> Well it certainly seems as though you've shoved your foot in your
FR> mouth. Staal already apologized for his unfounded accusation.
tr> Whether or not he was lying is beside the point, dickhead.
Hardly. The fact is that he DID lie and the fact is that he DID apologize
for his lie. Your message indicates that I would do such a thing. You
kinda fucked up on all three accounts, huh?
But that's okay. I forgive you. I shall evidence the higher morality.
tr> If you would bother rereading my message, I said you had the
tr> capacity to committ the acts he had accused you of, not that
tr> you had done them.
And you were wrong. Embarrassing, huh?
FR> You're not a Creationist by any chance, are you?
tr> To answer your question, I will fall back on the wisdom of
tr> the immortal Hunter S. Thompson, who, in July of 1985, said
tr> "Bite my crank, you two- bit maladjusted odorous baboon."
Sorry. Not my table.
~*~ If the women would stay at home and take care of the kids, we
wouldn't be having this mess! - Shawn Swanner
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Hardly's truth filter
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:20:50
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a4
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 36950d36
PID: FM 2.02
dm> Bullshit! When have you EVER seen any truth
dm> in one of his messages? It's working FINE!
fr>> }:-} There's an idea... Put a truth
fr>> filter on everything that goes _out_.
sm> His system would EXPLODE!!!!!
How sad!
sm> Or his brain...... or some such........
Splattering innocent people with what, exactly? }:-}
~*~ Faith fills the fundy head...where facts and knowledge fear to tread.
- Steve Rose
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: The Chinese are all dead.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:22:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a5
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 36950d33
PID: FM 2.02
FR> There is no evidence whatsoever for the event of a "global flood."
gw> You've obviously never floated down the Rhine river. Or climbed Mt.
gw> Pilatus on Switzerland. Or talked to "Dinosaur Bob" from Montana...
gw> Now then.
FR> You've obviously never learn geology, paleontology, archeology, or
FR> asked why the Chinese failed to notice their own obliteration.
dm> The Chinese are a notoriously stubborn people.
fr> So much so over a billion of them refuse to be dead? According
fr> to this Creationist lunatic, they should all be.
sm> лллллл ллллл ллллл ллллл ллл ллл ллл ллллл ллллл лл
sm> л л л л л л л л л лллллл л л л л лл
sm> ллллл л л л ллл л л лл л ллллл л л лл
sm> л лл л л л л л л л л л л л л
sm> ллл ллл ллллл ллл ллл ллллл ллл ллл ллл ллл ллллл лл
I'd like to see them REALLY start laughing when some Creationist fundy tries
to explain to them why they're all dead.
~*~ Wait on God - Phil Morrison
Sorry, not my table. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Hardly's Truth filter
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:23:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a6
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 36950d34
PID: FM 2.02
fr> By the way: Your truth filter is still broken.
sm> False. Evidently Phidaux has been munching your messagefeed as well.....
sm> He posted a message recently declaring that he turned it off.
I eventually got his message saying he turned it off. I would expect to
see messages entered into a system come out in the same order if they follow
the same path. The path must have been different.
Fidonet's so cool!
~*~ ...you have willingly joined the legion of Satans's angels. - Ron Ballew
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Typical theist dishonesty
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:28:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a7
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 36950d35
PID: FM 2.02
DH> Atheism asserts that there is no God (god).
fr> Oh? Care to give us the name of ANY atheist in this forum which
fr> states that? Or are you just lying because it's expected of
fr> Christians?
>>> Let me restate. Atheism according to Webster:
>>> atheism (n) 1. a disbelief in the existence of deity.
>>> 2. the doctrine that there is no deity.
>>> atheist (n) 1. one who denies the existence of God.
fr> Your "Webster" is wrong (or you're using a definition you just made
up.)
sm> Neither. The Websters were good, strong,
sm> believing Protestant Christians.
sm> Their lexicography is therefore skewed.
Just as the Gallup organization can never be trusted,.
sm> As Judith Bandsma pointed out, several dictionaries would be
sm> superior to Webster's for this purpose. Like Judith, I recommend
sm> the Oxford Universal Unabridged Dictionary.
I'm using encyclopedias and such which are dated from before the Mecury
missions. I find that Christanic intrusion into history to "correct" an
embarrassing fact is less the further back in time one goes.
sm> Be sure to know who your crane operator is when you attempt this,
sm> however. The OUD weigs in at about 100 kg or so......... :-)
sm> (Thank Goat for CD-ROM.......)
What's your CD say about "atheism" and "atheist?"
fr> Atheism is the lack of belief in the existance of deity constructs.
sm> A definition that more honest lexicographers support........
One that includes _all_ gods and goddesses, not just one male god mistakenly
capitalized to try to lend it creedence over all the millions of others.
~*~ I've met guys and gals that clean animal cages who
say they are "scientists". - Richard Thorneycroft
As an inmate? - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rena Mcgee
|Sub: Hitler WAS a Christian. Time to get over it.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:30:42
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a8
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I can't help but wonder what these people want to pretend are "TRUE
FR> Christians." It would appear to be that a "TRUE Christian" is the
FR> person making the claim and that everyone else is a "FALSE Christian."
rm> The Nazis *did* have a mystical/occultic system cobbled together
rm> though...how "christian" by any definition is that?
The fact that Hitler was a Catholic and professed same until his suicide,
for one. The many speeches he made which justified his programs as a Christian,
for others.
I've been posting his own words and the statements by Christian church leaders
in this forum and yet I've been met with glib rebuttles and ad-hoc commentary
written after his death to "explain" why he wasn't a Christian.
Hitler said he was. Most of Europe's Christian churches agreed. That should
be good enough. Calling a dead man a liar is easy to get away with.
~*~ The Cosmic Star Goat told us you would not provide evidence.
-- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: The truth fits. Wear it.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:34:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a9
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 65a43c8c
PID: FM 2.02
FR>>You're not _allowed_ to ask questions about your cult, leave
FR>>alone accept answers.
JcJ> Shut up and answer the question, Fred. What is a "fundy"?
jjh> Somehow this reminds me of those exchanges between a Zen master and
jjh> a novice monk. You ask a rhetorical question. Fred replies with a
jjh> non-answer. You whap him on top of his head with your Zen-Stick and
jjh> repeat the process until one of you becomes enlightened.
Eventually the one with the softest head starts mumbeling about
invisible playfriends being responsible for emotions.
A George Bush Dollar says he'll insist his question isn't rhetorical.
~*~ "I was on my knees, doggie-style, with my feet hanging off the bed...
He pulled his jogging suit down around his ankles and left his T-shirt
on... He stuck it in and pumped a couple of time and pulled it out...
He was very easy. A few pumps and that was it. He'd just moan, and as
soon as he got done, he'd throw the rubber in the trash, tuck it in and
walk out the door."
-- Debra Murphree refering to Jimmy Swaggart
(Penthouse magazine, July 1988)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:37:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3aa
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 65a68c2b
PID: FM 2.02
> DUBAI, April 1 (Reuter) - An unidentified flying object was
> sighted last week in Saudi Arabia's oil-producing eastern
> region, a Saudi newspaper reported on Monday.
Too damn cool! It's neat to see that George's spews are being put to good
use.
~*~ Ohh! Ohh! Hit me! Beat me! Make me install WINDOWS 3.1!~ ;-)
- Gary Glunz
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: His Daily Charmin
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:43:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3ab
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 bde6ca66
PID: FM 2.02
GM> TO GROW TALL IN YOUR FAITH,
em> Renounce your synaptic assets and
And one's humanity.
GM> ROOT YOUR LIFE IN PRAYER.
That'll make hurtful, harsh, cold reality disappear.
~*~ "assassinating his character"? Goat, man, his
character has committed SUICIDE. - Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: His Daily Flogging
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:49:44
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3ac
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 eee38490
PID: FM 2.02
GM> Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man, but afterward his
GM> mouth will be filled with gravel. -Proverbs 20:17
em> As a child, after being pushed face-down in the church parking
em> lot by the believers, (for not believing) I learned that there
em> is more than one way to enjoy a nice gravel lunch.
You got off _lucky_. Some of the people here have been beaten and their
lives ruined by "well meaning" family members.
GM> Solomon used this imagery to speak of the bread of deceit.
Ah, yes. The "godly man" who boastsed of having 10,000 wives, fucking dozens
of them daily, and "rending his garments" when he learned that a woman who
made an agreement to eat her son with another woman broke her agreement.
Lovely role models these fundies pick, huh?
em> Whereas, the pedophilic death-cultist who indoctrinates
em> children into lifelong (sometimes, ha ha!) servitude to the
em> subconscious demonic fabrications of superstition shall find himself
>
em> with a mouthful of lutefisk. Minnesota Lutherans from Hell. Yee-Ha!
That's child abuse in any other context than cultism. Claim deity and get
away with murder.
em> The Sunday practice of psychological child molestation, OTOH,
em> is A-OK according to the christ/satan cult.
Woops! I see you've got that base covered.
~*~ JESUS CHRIST WILL COME, WETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT. - Leonard Bernier
He sure is taking a long time. I'm quite sore. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: The Raven
|Sub: AGS vs. Mark Craig
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:52:34
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3ad
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3179c508
PID: FM 2.02
Anthony Grigor-Scott
MC> and his job is to divide the Church (Catholics and Protestants).
I though that was _our_ job! I'm getting paid for it, anyway.
AG> NO way! the Roman Catholics were at no time `the Church'.
AG> Rome has always been the apostate FALSE church.
tr> LOOK! DUELLING CONSPIRACY THEORISTS!
That's so cute! Yet neither explained how J.F.K. and Henry Kissinger work
into the conspiracy equation.
~*~ the most rationalistic skeptic, the most wicked and profane and vile,
will all one day bow their knees and proclaim that He is the Lord of
all! - Johnny Mckinney
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Quoting
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:54:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3ae
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3178f05c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> ~*~ I didn't join the Human race -- I was drafted. - Fredric Rice
sa> ROFL! My sentiments exactly. How do you
sa> get out of this chicken outfit, anyway?
FR> Oh that's _EASY_! Join the Christian death cult and wait for the BATF
FR> to come take you and your leaders out of the gene pool.
sa> I was thinking more along the lines of a species-change operation.
My suggestion does nearly that.
~*~ And in what way is religion a form of fantasy - MARIA RUSSELL
In what way is citrus a form of fruit? - DAVID RICE
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Survey
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:56:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3af
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3178f05a
PID: FM 2.02
WH> ~SURVEY ON VIEWS OF SIN AND LIFE AFTER DEATH~
WH> Age: Gender:
sa> 27 (I think).
sa> F, according to my passport.
Couldn't you ask a doctor?
WH> Denomination/Church group:
sa> Taoist
A George Bush buck says he was fishing for a _Christian_ brand name.
~*~ We're all gonna die one way or another. - John Prewett
Why don't you just give yourself a Remington tonsillectomy then?
- Shelby Sherman
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: The problem with putzes . . .
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:00:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b0
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 317a7ea0
PID: FM 2.02
dm> This just in from the New Republic, "Notebook" (May 8, 1996:8):
dm>
dm> Sic transit: The Iranian News media has had difficulty
dm> reporting on the American presidential election because
dm> "Dole" is a Farsi slang term for "penis."
And this is from a country that so many Christians here wish to
emulate. I wonder how they refer to him.
~*~ Pssss! Jesus is dead. Pass it on. - David Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Adolph Hitler Was a Christian
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:02:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b1
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3179863a
PID: FM 2.02
RS> This last part wouldn't have mattered, though. Regardless of if he
RS> got last rites or not in the Catholic Church, killing himself would
RS> have sent him to Hell regardless. So that last point is moot, right?
rJ> Depends. Anyone happen to know if Martin Bormann was a priest?
rs> I don't. But my understanding of Catholicism (notably not up to snuff,
rs> since I haven't had any Catholic lessons in about 30 years) is that
no
rs> matter what happens, even IF it's absolved by a priest, suicide is
rs> still a mortal sin, period.
It's interesting to note that if you murder a pagan for "Jesus" it's perfectly
okay yet if you kill yourself, it's straight to "hell" with you.
~*~ The sun is covered in bright green puppy dogs.
Martians have taken over the US government. - Kelsey Bjarnason
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:04:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b2
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3179a2a0
PID: FM 2.02
> That's a matter of opinion. If taking George's word on anything leads
> to this sort of thing, it just makes it clear that George can not be
> believed or trusted, regardless of what he says. Sending others (John)
> through groveling motions, denigrating them, robbing them of all
> dignity, etc., is not a light matter in my book.
If John wasn't in on the alleged gag you would be right and I would agree
with everything you said. If John _was_ part of the gag, they should BOTH
be ejected from this forum. It turns out that George is a shit and John
is innocent of any wrong doing.
~*~ We were blood brothers, pals forever. He was my very best friend.
Nobody else could see him. I now know he was just pretend. - Dan Barker
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:07:11
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b3
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3179a40a
PID: FM 2.02
JH> There is no humor here. George threatened the safety of an item
JH> lent to him in good faith. There is nothing funny about a threat.
rs> Total absolute agreement here. And more, please see my post . . .
In fact, I would opine that criminal charges for making the threat even
in jest is warranted. George may have coughed-up the book after he was
threatened with legal cause and then demanded it was a joke.
-=-
It's interesting to note that the issue here was over a book -- something
that fundies and intelligent people alike hold in high reguard.
~*~ Nope. FidoNet Technical Standards require the final Origin line to
be changed EACH TIME a message is sent back into an EchoMail Forum.
- Sean Mccullough
You ARE showing your ignorance. You really think I'm going to change
my origin line every time I submit a message in the echo? Where did
you find such a standard? - Greg Waggy
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:14:16
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b5
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 74af938b
PID: FM 2.02
> Before I leave, you have to close your eyes.
> CRASH! tinkle tinkle...
> (moan)
"I am the wind!"
~*~ Got great news: been off the medication for months now. Life is
indeed good! - Jim Staal (suffers from MPD)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ric Carter
|Sub: Is anybody out there
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:15:54
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b6
PID: FM 2.02
>>> Can we have a Satanic rite and read from Anton LeVay before school?
sm> The few kids who CAN read are already doing that on their own time.
FR> Now THERE'S a truth.
rc> But only kids of Fundies bother to do so. The rest play videogames.
Which I find not at all ironic. Fundies are their own worse nightmare;
their own worse advertisment. Religious extremism boardering upon the deadly
is, I opine, no different than child abuse.
~*~ Good grief. Guess he's never read the bible he is thumping. - David
Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Leonard Bernier
|Sub: Matthew 24:36-37
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:36:36
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e5
REPLY: 1:225/360 571a2d3a
PID: FM 2.02
> 36) But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
> heaven, but My Father only.
And yet every death cultists demands we're all "living in the
last days." And every death cultist fails to admit that the "Jesus" myth
was supposed to have returned within the life time of his cult followers.
Try something new, Jim.
~*~ This line added to support David Rice's
counting fetish. :-) - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bill Wolff
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:41:02
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e6
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 65c136df
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Well he _could_ admit he's a Creationist liar (redundant, I know)
FR> and he _could_ agree that he is incapable of telling the truth.
FR> 'Course I still wouldn't believe him -- he's _STILL_ trying to
FR> put words into Carl Sagan's mouth.
mg> He keeps showing up here saying the same stuff. I think that he
mg> believes it to be a personal joke that we're all too stupid to
mg> understand. His real problem is that when he lied, he was shown the
mg> truth and now, he wishes that he hadn't lied. Billy had better get
on
mg> his knees and give his god a good blowjob for his transgressions.
Perhaps this forum is unique in that public lies such as his trying to make
Carl Sagan into a Creationist are so easilly debunked here and caught out.
It took only a week or so for someone to find and post the rest of the article
which Bill lied about. I think perhaps EVOLUTION is another such information-rich
forum where such lies are easilly exposed.
~*~ JESUS LIVES and he even died for the homosexual... - Nathan Dutton
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:47:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e7
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 33bb2680
PID: FM 2.02
jb> What you saw was as it was. I had nothing to do with
jb> this "joke" (which I myself do NOT consider in the least
jb> bit funny).
I didn't find it at all funny either and I'm _STILL_ willing to turn over
the archives if legal cases must come.
~*~ Or perhaps you would just prefer a moment of silence, in which those
who may be members of Santeria can sacrifice their animals in peace?"
-- Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get OVER it!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:55:54
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e8
REPLY: 1:236/20.0 317c3d08
PID: FM 2.02
ed> Remember that Hitler was a ruthless politician. He could say
ed> anything he wanted, but his actions speak louder than his rhtoric.
fr> Which is exactly true and which evidences the fact that
fr> he was a Christian. He was doing things that Christian
fr> "leaders" had done for a dozen centuries before him -- no
fr> difference. To demand that Hitler wasn't a Christian is
fr> to demand that all the Christians who came before him
fr> weren't Christians either.
ed> Hitler was not a leader in the name of Christianity.
ed> He was the leader of Nazism.
The point is that he was undeniably a Christian, not whether he was considered
a "Christian leader." The point is also undeniable that he employed the
tools that _are_ Christianity, what it was made for, and enjoyed the overwhelming
support of the majority of European Christianity at the time.
All the commentary offered decades after his death want to "explain away"
the embarrassing truth; namely that being a Christian doesn't stop someone
from being a tyranical fascist dictator. History _shows_ us that Christianity
is all those things.
ed> According to John Gunther in his book, INSIDE EUROPE,1938 ed.,:
ed> *He was born and brought up a Roman Catholic. But lost faith
ed> early and attends no religious services of any kind.
fr> That's contrary to what Hitler said and to what Christian
fr> churches were saying and doing at the time. Contrary to
FR> John Gunther, Adolf Hitler remained a Christian until his
fr> suicide.
ed> In Albert B. Gerber's book,THE LIFE OF ADOLF HITLER, states that:
ed> "His father was a conscientious Catholic; Adolf tried to break away
ed> from the Church.One day, forced to take Communion by his father, he
ed> spat out the host in prote