God Damned Fundies!
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 19 Apr 96 01:06:00
EID:c051 209308c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366E8A8
PS> Not at one shot, no. I know a guy who is, at last report, currently
PS> working on filling a gallon jar.
I REALLY didn't need to know that...
... Do not disturb. Already disturbed.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Leland Tsao
|Sub: Harmony
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:04:00
EID:226f 20931080
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366EC72
-=> Quoting The Raven to Marilyn Burge <=-
MB> If the Europeans had just kept their noses out of things on that
MB> continent, the African tribes would still be in harmony with nature.
TR> I know I'm going to be sorry for opening this can of worms, but
TR> would you be so kind as to define your terms? What exactly do you mean
TR> by "still be in harmony with nature"? What harmony are you implying?
TR> I am asking this because the same sort of statement has been made
TR> about the Indians, and I *know* that its bullshit when it comes to
TR> us...
That's sort of the way I felt. Try and tell those starving in Africa, "Oh,
we're not going to share aid with you, because heavens, we messed up and
ruined your quaint tribal culture and we'll just make it worse." Harmony,
schmarmony, People in tribes were just trying to eke out a living as best
they could in the only way they knew how, and if they had access to better
technology, they would have jumped at it. The Indians did want it...guns
and horses and a lot of things the Europeans had....they just didn't want
to be enslaved along with it. So did the Africans. Knowledge is, and has
always been, power, and you can't turn back the clock...you have to go
forward.
I don't go on and on about how the nasty Roman Empire ruined the Germanic
tribes from which I sprang, and ruined the Germanic "harmony with
nature"...
... Grey: (n.) an alien lifeform traveling light-years to molest cattle.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Leland Tsao
|Sub: help me
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:02:00
EID:ecf1 20931040
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366F078
TR> Its the reason I consider Al to be a pal while you I find to be a putz.
TR> He, at least, doesn't make light of my own beliefs, or lack thereof.
I'm too busy defending my own to mock anybody else's...
Thanks, Jack. I don't agree with your assessment on Mike, but I do know
a pal when I "see" one.
... "You live and learn. Or you don't live long." -L. Long. ___ Blue
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Holy Smoke
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:04:00
EID:858c 20931080
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366F35C
AS> In the immortal words of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, "Dope
AS> will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you
AS> through times of no dope."
RS> Far out. Underground comic references . . . };) Fat Freddie's cat
RS> was my favorite ("Anybody got a dime to see a cat dance?") as well as
RS> Wonder Warthog and anything by Crumb.
There was one called Captain Guts I kind of liked. Mr. Natural was
probably my favorite Crumb character.
AS> (All the twenty-somethings just went "Huh?" Trust me, people; you
AS> would have had to have been there, in the sixties.)
RS> Young whippersnappers anyway . . . }:) . . . ah, don't get me started
RS> on the nostalgic bit again, Al . . .
Going into the local head shop to get underground comics, sandwiched
between the bongs and the day-glo posters...oops. Sorry.
(Innocent look...)
... "Hey, Mr. Natural! I've been working out! How do I look?""Ridiculous!"
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: HOLY SMOKE
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:09:00
EID:0334 20931120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366F6E0
AS> (All the twenty-somethings just went "Huh?" Trust me, people; you
AS> would have had to have been there, in the sixties.)
JB> Oh yes, Al, I remember that one. I was also playing off the 'New
JB> Riders' song 'Down to Seeds and Stems Again Blues'.
Whole Earth Catalog. Zig-Zag papers. Love-ins. We get nostalgic for the
oddest things...
... You're only young once. After that you need another excuse.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: LOSING THE LABELS (1/2)
|Date: 19 Apr 96 02:07:00
EID:9793 209310e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366FABE
AS> days afterwards. (And Marilyn reminds me of the stereotypical
AS> mother-in-law going, I don't know what you ever saw in that
AS> loser, I told you never to go back to him, etc.)
MB> I simply can't stand his brand of dishonesty. He'll say whatever
MB> gets him off the hook at the moment, then turn his back on those
MB> very words in nothing flat (if doing so seems to have momentary
MB> advantage in that new moment).
In all honesty, Marilyn, I really don't see it.
MB> Fer instance, when the abortion battle was raging in here, I
MB> pointed out to him the insurmountable practical problems with the
MB> "only in cases of rape or incest" approach to the problem.
MB> I went into detail about how crowded the court system was, and how
MB> impossible it would be to establish that a rape had occurred until
MB> long after the window of opportunity had passed for an abortion.
MB> I further pointed out to him how many additional cases would be in
MB> the court system every year, just trying to hash out who had been
MB> falsely accused so that some woman could get an abortion who
MB> wanted one (can you say a million new court cases every year? Can
MB> you say some significant portion of those rape cases ending in
MB> charges being brought against the woman for filing a false police
MB> report? Can you say a million other cases being ignored so these
MB> cases could be "brought to justice?")
??? But if you charged the man with rape or incest right away, surely it
would be months before the pregnancy would show? Wouldn't it be workable
if the charge preceded the discovery of the pregnancy? We needn't even
get a conviction, in that case. But if the discovery of the pregnancy was
BEFORE the charging, not to grant it?
Sorry. I started to think these things through logically. Bad habit.
MB> He agreed with me that that approach was unworkable on a practical
MB> level, and that, for that reason, he was not advocating that
MB> approach.
MB> It wasn't more than a half-dozen posts later, on the same day,
MB> that he posted to somebody else that he FAVORED the "only in cases
MB> of rape or incest" approach to the problem!
Well...are you SURE, rock-solid SURE, that the post was AFTER he wrote
that response to you? You admit it was the same day...and he might have
been storing responses for several days, for that matter. All of us are
sometimes inconsistent, Marilyn, without being purposely dishonest.
MB> He wouldn't know honesty if it bit him in the ass. He's
MB> demonstrated that again and again.
Again...respectfully...don't see it.
MB> I really hate liars. Trying to sort out what they REALLY mean from
MB> what they are saying just because they think it sounds good at the
MB> moment is NOT worth my time and mental energy. I LIKE being able
MB> to take people at face value. It is impossible for ANYTHING that
MB> Michael says to be taken that way. He has condemned himself with
MB> his own words.
I must admit I don't have much respect for trollers. To me, Mike has been
remarkably consistent. As for the rape/incest thing...maybe it IS
unworkable. But still I think it is commendable to perhaps err on the side
of mercy for a woman who has NO choice about being impregnated, as opposed
to one who took the chance for something she DID want to do...and lost.
Especially when you consider that HE considers it murder...
... A generation which ignores history has no past or future.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: MARILYN
|Date: 19 Apr 96 05:07:00
EID:b903 209328e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0366FD84
AS> Many here do that. And I thought his response to Lynda
AS> concerning her spiritual crisis was unfortunately worded,
AS> even granting he didn't know all I knew of what was going on.
MH> And I deeply regret doing so.
AS> Good. Too bad Marilyn will never see that. Unless she reads
AS> my reply to this.
MB> Only a VERY small beginning. He regrets doing it because it
MB> "came at a bad time" in her life. Otherwise, he would feel
MB> it was open seaon on here, just like it is on Spong.
Do you want him to mollycoddle Lynda? To talk down to her? To not treat
her as an intellectual equal, with viewpoints that she is capable of
defending?
MB> He gripes about the fact that he can't respond directly to me,
MB> yet he said Spong ought to resign his bishopric without a moment's
MB> hesitation. Is Spong here to defend HIMSELF? Has Mike apologized
MB> to Spong? Hell no! I'd bet the farm he hasn't. More of his
MB> damnable intellectual dishonesty and double standard. HE can do
MB> no wrong, but the rest of us who disagree with him regarding what
MB> wrong is are shit outta luck!
Apologize to Spong for what?
Spong hasn't read Michael's posts, that we know of. His opinion of what
Spong should do would not effect Spong in the least. I think some of the
televangelists should resign, that Oral Roberts' ploy a few years ago to
get a million dollars for his university by a certain time or "God would
call him home," was a shameless attempt at spiritual blackmail by a
preacher on his believers. I think Roberts should resign, and make no
bones about it, and have NO INTENTION of apologizing for that statement.
And of course, what I said doesn't hurt Roberts at all. And if it has hurt
any believer reading this who believes strongly in Roberts, I'm sorry, but
I'm not going to retract it. It is, after all, my honest opinion.
If Michael sees some hypocrisy between maintaining the Apostles' Creed,
which includes, "Born of the Virgin Mary," "Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
buried, and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures, and
ascended into Heaven" (it's been a long time since I've had to recite the
Apostle's Creed, we don't do that in the CofC, so if I got the words
wrong, Lynda, forgive me, if you're reading this.), and Spong's own
convictions that no one living today could believe a virgin could
conceive, or that a dead man literally walked or ascended in any sort of
movement into the sky....and remember,as a bishop, he is sworn to uphold
tha same Creed...
Then perhaps...just perhaps, Marilyn...Michael similarly does't like
"intellectual dishonesty and double standard". Perhaps he thinks it odd
that Spong is being maintained by the church in a position of authority,
his meals paid for, his lodgings provided....and yet does not defend the
same tenets that he MUST, from the pulpit, make others recite, as I
remember the Episcopal Church. Perhaps he would feel Spong could better,
and with a clearer conscience, espouse the views that are his own as
simply a theologian, rather than a leader in a church which has definite
standards. (Interestingly enough, Spong could be a Church of Christ
minister, because there IS no creed there...)
Now...having said that...let me just say that I think Spong is doing a
lot of good in some ways. And maybe he is making those uncomfortable with
the tenets of miracles still comfortable with the idea of Christ. And
maybe he is extending the Lord's love in ways the church SHOULD go, like
towards gay clergy. For those things, I may be willing to overlook what
_I_ consider hypocrisy and double standards to give Spong a chance.
Could you do the same for Mike?
... A long dispute means both parties are wrong.--Voltaire
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:09:00
EID:5faf 20931920
MSGID: 1:116/19 036701D0
AS> Am I? You were forced to at least equivocate on one. And I think
DC> Seems like someone else showed that was not necessary, on both
DC> counts.
1 Chronicles 4:28 has the same thirteen cities recounted...without the
disputed one.
AS> Michael will have some more for you. BTW, which translation of the
AS> Bible are you consulting?
DC> Thing is, that's the point. The bible gets re-written and
DC> re-interpreted at ever juncture. However, the glaring errors
DC> still seem to crop up.
Sure. But again...there are some errors that are understandable, in Hebrew
people. But how likely do you think it is that the Jews could not count
as
high as thirteen---twice--without making a mistake? And the same mistake
both times?
DC> Have you seen the post on the debate? Marylin Burge, I think,
DC> posted that one...
Seen it and answered it.
... "Sheesh! Try to do something nice, and you get flamed!" -- Joan of Arc
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:02:00
EID:d45a 20931840
MSGID: 1:116/19 03670734
AS> WHat is really needed is for people to really develop the UFOs as a
AS> MYTHOLOGY. As actual claims they are worthless, but I am fascinated
AS> bu the parellels I see both with old mythologies and fairy stories,
AS> and someone needs to take the Grays, the Men in Black, the many
AS> stories and try to write it as a cohesive whole, a mythology we can
AS> read as we do Hesiod, or the Elder Edda, as literally a myth for our
AS> times.
RS> I think this a neat idea. I've always been struck between the
RS> similarities between the UFO people and vampire legends. Same pasty
RS> grey/white skin, big dark eyes, etc. Same activities during the
RS> night, similar interactions with bodily fluid, etc. Maybe there's an
RS> archetype here . . .
They still take things from us, just cell samples and blood samples and
sperm samples, according to the UFO mythology...a new volume of
Bullfinch's mythology covering the UFO stuff?
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:04:00
EID:64f4 20931880
MSGID: 1:116/19 03670B76
AS> WHat is really needed is for people to really develop the UFOs as a
AS> MYTHOLOGY. As actual claims they are worthless, but I am fascinated
PS> They already are. People who are solid Jungians have advanced the
PS> claim that UFOs and little grey men have become archetypes.
Yeah. UFOs were mandelas, I believe, projected onto the sky. But I was
thinking more something a little more like Hesiod's family tree of the
gods...something that unifies and clarifies which races do what, what role
the Men in Black have, that sort of thing...
... A single fact can spoil a good argument.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Question
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:07:00
EID:9f41 209318e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03670F72
AS> Well, if He designed us so well, that there would be no deviation,
AS> then no evolution would take place, since evolution is caused by
AS> deviation over generations. So we would still be one-celled animals.
AS> If God goes in and directs us only in the way He has predetermined,
AS> then we are all perfect beings without fault and blemish. In fact...we
AS> are remarkably like the description of Adam and Eve...before the Fall.
AS> Even though I regard it as a parable, it DOES solve much at a stroke,
AS> if there is some truth to it. Once we might have been in such a state
AS> as you describe...and then we did the one thing that could get us
AS> kicked out.
RS> Logic problem here, Al. If we assume for the sake of argument that
RS> God's creation of the earth, etc., as given in Genesis is a given,
RS> then there'd be no need for evolution since God himself generated all
RS> the life forms and didn't start from single celled animals to evolve
RS> them on down (or up) to you or myself. What would be wrong if we were
RS> all perfect beings, all ultimately happy, content, etc.?
That was actually two different approaches. In one he creates us sort of
the way science believes, but doesn't allow mutation to happen. And we
stay the same. As for the latter...nothing really, as long as you are not
forced to be that way...i.e.,have a way to get out of that perfect
existence if you so choose to, and thus would not be a puppet. But not be
dumb enough to DO it, which unfortunately, according to the Eden story,
we
were...
RS> I have sons, like you, and can only begin to imagine the torment you
RS> must feel, since my sons are young hellions, boisterous boys to the
RS> core, who have no disfunction at this time. (Or ever, I hope.)
RS> While I have my beliefs as to why such things happen to people, I'm
RS> sure that they aren't the same as your rationales for them . . . and
RS> maybe some day we can exchange our `excuses' for why such things
RS> happen. Yet I know you feel deeply about this, especially in
RS> relationship to your sons. I just want you to know that I'm not being
RS> disrespectful of your feelings regarding this, nor them. I'm just
RS> curious. Obviously, we all want our children to be golden ones,
RS> forever young, immortal, and perfect. }:)
Well, yeah...maybe God feels much the same way about us...
But in another way, it's...hmmm. Okay. It's a raw deal in many ways...but
to God, who can sense our every thought and feeling, we are ALL autistic,
inarticulate, whatever, and the difference between myself and a nonverbal
autistic is like the difference between the strength in an ant to a
beetle...negligible. Similarly, we're all blind next to an omniscient
being, deaf, crippled next to a being who is omnipresent, enfeebled next
to someone who is omnipotent. That is not to say that God does not know
the difference. Jesus cured the child whose lack of speech was caused by
demons, gladly. But yet...we are all disfunctional, next to God.
... On the 6th day, God created Man. It's clear he was tired.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Return Of Propterty
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:00:00
EID:15eb 20931800
MSGID: 1:116/19 036712CE
AS> I have offered to do the same. You might be interested to know that
AS> I was in #holysmoke the other night, Saturday, and Lynda and I were
AS> talking, when George came. I called him a thief/vandal/blackmailer,
AS> and he tried to whine it was "part of the agreement" with John. I
AS> rarely come to #holysmoke, and considered it extreme good fortune to
AS> at least BEGIN to tell George what an utter waste of breathing flesh
AS> he is. Then Lynda booted him off.
RS> Al, is there any way to get a copy of these archives, either from you
RS> or from Fredric? (This is Norbert Sykes, btw, in case you haven't
RS> seen my other post concerning my real name . . . ) I missed the whole
RS> debacle when Net 1:203 was down here locally for two weeks, and want
RS> to at least be aware of what went on. Please let me know. I will
RS> leave my internet address as a tagline in case you wish to communicate
RS> that way. Thanx.
Thanks, Richard. I'm at home till Tuesday, and I believe I stored them on
my computer at work. Let me see what I can do, though....I might still
have them here, also.
... Sit down before Fact like a little child... -T.H. Huxley
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Self-portrait: Mark Craig
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:04:00
EID:f503 20931880
MSGID: 1:116/19 0367194A
AS> Mark Craig's self-portrait?
AS> And notice the lack of genitalia....
DC>
DC> That's because, what little there was, was kicked up into his head!
Well, at least he can hear himself coming...
DC> The idiot's a troll, and even isn't good at that.
He actually did manage a long one the other day. Someone must have taught
him how to cut-and-paste...
... Against stupidity, the Gods themselves, contend in vain !
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Thanks
|Date: 19 Apr 96 03:08:00
EID:8045 20931900
MSGID: 1:116/19 03671EFE
AS> No. George Rudzinski. He and John Brawley had a falling out over
AS> George being tossed off an echo John helps co-moderate. John had
AS> loaned George a book, with annotations in John's own
AS> handwriting...irreplacable. He told John to stay off Holy SMoke for
AS> ninety days, just as John ordered him off the echo John co-moderates,
AS> or else he wouldn't get the book back. John posted a message to "All"
AS> saying that because he really needed the book back, he was going to
AS> not respond to any messages. George said that it was an infringement
AS> on their "agreement" to post it publicly, even if to say he couldn't
AS> reply...and destroyed John's book. Yeah. I know. He claimed to be a
AS> "man of his word". Styx ejected him immediately. What a jerk. I hope
AS> John sues him and takes him to the cleaners.
RS> Ah, at last I get the whole story. Damn, I hate missing two weeks of
RS> this echo! So George finally showed his colors for the true coward
RS> he was, eh? Extortion, burning of books, etc., . . . who'd have
RS> thought him such a fascist. Good riddance to bad rubbish . . .
To paraphrase Shakespeare in Richard the III, nothing became George so
much as his being booted out.
... Blind people don't bungee jump; it scares the dog too much.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: THE DROOL GAME
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:09:00
EID:0a7a 20932120
MSGID: 1:116/19 036724B2
AS> Granted. Then, by the same token, if Michael was getting more
AS> interested in science, but from a creationist viewpoint, one
AS> shouldn't complain that, as long as he is learning more
AS> science than he knows before, not to worry that the science
AS> book comes from the ICR? Personally, I tend to warn people of
AS> books I think are folly...
MB> That's hardly the same thing. There is a million data points to
MB> debunk creationism; there are NO data points to verify miracles
MB> as literal truth. Given that, you're comparing apples and
MB> Kenworths. A person can believe just about anything they choose
MB> where religion is concerned, and the only counter to those beliefs
MB> is that they are outside of orthodoxy. In the case of Spong's
MB> conjectures, you can't even say that, with a moral certainty. Too
MB> many people agree with him -- certainly enough to make it what
MB> might be called "the New Orthodoxy." Religious beliefs are nothing
MB> more than thoughts; creationism has to line up with something much
MB> more substantial: the physical evidence. It can't do that.
You think Spong is the NEW Orthodoxy? He seems a minority who is fighting
to stay where he is, and those who follow him. It is Fundamentalists who
seem to have the fastest-growing churches. Not that he should sell out on
that account, but it does underscore that he is not a new orthodoxy.
MB> If you have to tell somebody what good manner are, they just
MB> don't have them. No sense in deluding yourself into believing
MB> they do, because they just don't.
AS> Speaking of manners...I won't quote directly, since I
AS> promised you I wouldn't, but Michael has requested that, if
AS> he is to be twitted, that we refrain from talking about him,
AS> since it is the cybernetic equivelent of talking pointedly
AS> about someone and then ignoring them. I think that a
AS> reasonable request. Your point to Lynda about your mood
AS> swings making communication with Michael impossible is
AS> something I hadn't considered, and if Michael makes you so
AS> mad, that's understandable. But if that's the case, perhaps
AS> we should move on to other things.
MB> Why should I? He's my poster boy of what is wrong with the dogmatic
MB> approach. If anybody is sitting on any fences, he serves a purpose,
MB> whether he likes the purpose he serves or not.
As you wish. But I will say this in all friendliness, Marilyn. If Michael
keeps on asking for advice how to change; and you keep piling abuse on
him; if he keeps asking for advice; and you keep on talking how
"dishonest" he is....
It is you who will come off...whether it is true or not...as the
dogmatic one, the unreasonable one. You will be making his case FOR him.
If you WANT to do that, keep on doing what you are doing.
... Ask NOT for whom the Belle trolls...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: THE DROOL GAME
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:00:00
EID:a791 20932000
MSGID: 1:116/19 036727B4
AS> Maybe it's just me or my Christian bias, but I don't see that at
AS> all; he has shown himself well-read on Christianity pro and con,
AS> having read more of Spong than I, and Burton Mack, etc. Yes, he is
AS> opinionated. Well, and David Worrell, Marilyn Burge, et al AREN'T???
SA> However, those individuals that you mentioned will at least
SA> appear to give consideration to alternate views if there is a well
SA> reasoned argument presented on a topic that they are in the process
of
SA> discussing. This may take the form of picking an argument apart, but
at
SA> least you get the sense that they saw what was written. Michael, on
SA> the other hand, has been tending to argue by the method of shouting
"is
SA> not" louder and louder, without even doing much to attempt to pick
SA> apart the argument in question. For example, in a recent discussion
I
SA> had with him, I was trying to discuss the possibility that the death
SA> and ressurection of Jesus was an elaborate hoax. Michael kept saying
SA> how unreasonable that was, how difficult that was, and how much of an
SA> EVENT (his term) the ressurection was, without really arguing
SA> substancially against the points that I was trying to bring up in
SA> support of this possibility. His strong belief of the ressurection
SA> (IMO) appeared to keep him from seeing the possibility that I was
SA> trying to get him to think about. I was not even trying to get him
to
SA> change his belief on this...just realize that there may be alternate
SA> ways that individuals could see this story.
SA> And yes, I do agree that there are other "brick walls" here.
I'll agree with you there. But David and Marilyn are opinionated, but
not really brick walls. As for the rest...
I really see Mike ACCUSED of "Is not!" a lot more than he ever does so.
Now, I'll be honest and admit that I DON'T remember the exchanges between
you two, but I think it's fair to say on other similar points, he tries
to
pick apart the argument by pointing out how unlikely it is that JEsus
would conspire with several other people to fake His own death, how
unlikely it would be if the disciples knew of the deception, etc. I
certainly have argued that way myself. Certainly Mike and I have sometimes
used the same arguments (mostly stolen from a common source, a book
called, WHO MOVED THE STONE?)...maybe I've just not been quite so forceful
about it.
... All I want is a warm bed, a kind word, and UNLIMITED POWER....
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: THIEDE
|Date: 19 Apr 96 05:09:00
EID:64f2 20932920
MSGID: 1:116/19 03672C14
AS> And of course, if that fragment of Matthew IS from 70 to 100
AS> AD, it makes it much more likely to be true, simply because
AS> when it gained general circulation, there were many people
AS> who could remember the events...teenagers at the time of the
AS> Crucifixion who might remember the nine-day Galilean wonder
AS> who waltzed into town and was later killed.
MB> Whistling past the graveyard.
MB> "In a recent article, however, Carsten Thiede, a German
MB> papyrologist, has proposed that the Magdalen gragments
MB> may be dated to the mid-first century (1995). His
MB> theory is based on the observation that these fragments
MB> were written in uncial script (upright, block letters, a
MB> practice that was generally abandoned during the course
MB> of the first century. In order to make his case, Thiede
So far, so good...
MB> has argued: (1) that the script is similar to some Greek
MB> texts from Pompey and Herculaneum that have been dated
MB> to the first century; (2) that a Greek fragment found
Yes, comparative papyrus styles are needed to establish a timeline...
MB> among the Dead Sea Scrolls was from the Gospel of Mark,
MB> showing that there must have been a deposit of Christian
MB> writings with the Essenes before the destruction of the
MB> temple; and (3) that, if early Christians were so oriented
Is this essential to Thiede's case about Matthew, or is it a side issue?
MB> to texts and so concerned about preserving their written
MB> gospels, they must have started using codices about that
MB> time. The conclusion Thiede wants to draw from this
MB> argumentation is that the Gospel of Matthew must have
MB> been written mid-first century by a disciple who had known
MB> Jesus and was still alive to record that history as it
MB> actually happened. What is more, since the fragments
MB> use an abbreviation for the proper name, Jesus, as well
MB> as for his designation as lord, Thiede thinks that his
MB> disciples must have recognized that the historical Jesus
MB> was in fact divine.
With the exception of the Mark thing, a relatively fair summation.
(Rereading.) No it isn't. Mid-first century implies 50 AD. I think the
earliest I have seen quoted for Thiede's claims is 70 AD. Maybe Mack's
being elastic in his terms...
MB> "Critical scholars will not be impressed. The fragments
MB> are easily explained as second-century texts; unicials could
MB> still have been used as late as 85 C.E., the traditional
MB> scholarly date for Matthew; Thiede's Dead Sea Scrolls scenario
WAIT a second. Second century or first century? 85 AD is first century.
He's giving two different answers.
MB> is preposterous; his theory about the Markan fragment among
Why?
MB> the Dead Sea Scrolls has been discredited; and the mass of
I think it rather unlikely myself. But on what grounds, "discredited"?
MB> detailed scholarship on the origins and history of the early
MB> Christian movements and their writings has simply been
MB> swept aside in the eager pursuit of a chimera. From a
It would help a lot more if Mack simply told us which evidence refutes
Thiede. As of yet, he hasn't...it's an appeal to authority. The mass of
physicists thought one could go faster than light, until
Michaelson-Morley's experiments and Einstein's theories showed them they
couldn't....
MB> critical scholar's point of view, Thiede's proposal is an
MB> example of just how desperate the Christian imagination
MB> can become in the quest to argue for the literal facticity
MB> of the Christian gospels."
"desperate"? It sounds more like bluster to me, Marilyn. Bluff. Argument
from invective and authority. Not evidence.
MB> from: Prologue: The mystique of
MB> sacred scripture
MB> _Who Wrote the New
MB> Testament_ by Burton Mack
MB> So, it looks to me like Thiede's rantings are just so much wishful
MB> thinking.
Funny. I was thinking the same of Mack's.
Didn't you notice he did not give us ONE FACT to refute Thiede? All he had
that really addressed the issue is...
MB> are easily explained as second-century texts; unicials could
MB> still have been used as late as 85 C.E., the traditional
I'm unclear on whether he thinks Matthew is first or second century, but
if he DOES think it is second century, the best way to refute Thiede is
to
show an example of that sort of writing IN THE SECOND CENTURY. Otherwise,
he is just saying, "Well, you can't PROVE it's wrong...."
The thing about a fragment of Mark in the Dead Sea Scroll seems, at best
irrelevant, at worst, a red herring to deliberately confuse the issue.
If Thiede has been wrong on something before (and what scholar hasn't?)
how does that impact the Magdalen fragments of Matthew? How does a
possible fragment of MArk in the Dead Sea Scrolls, pro or con, affect a
fragment of Matthew?
"Rantings"? "Wishful thinking"? The only ranting and wishful thinking I
see here is Mack's.
I still want to read Mack. But the above is not giving me a great deal
of confidence in him.
... At first they burn books. Eventually they burn people.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:08:00
EID:08d0 20932100
MSGID: 1:116/19 036730F6
AS> That's the real reason the Middle Ages had the Crusades, the
AS> Inquisition, witch hunts, the Rack, etc. No caffeine.
RS> You know, you might have something here . . . the Mid East is closer
RS> to Arabic countries, that did have coffee from my understanding,
RS> therefor the Crusades would be in keeping with this. The Inquisition
RS> was strongest near countries that were or once were Islamic, again we
RS> see cultures that used the coffee bean . . . don't see a connection
RS> between the Witch hunts and caffiene, unless someone wanted to know
RS> how to brew a better pot of coffee. But the whole conquest of the New
RS> World had to be a quest for caffiene, both as coffee beans, but also
RS> as the (New World Only) source for chocolate. There were desperate
RS> enough to drink hot unsweetened chocolate back in the middle ages .
.
RS> . };)
That's pretty desperate. The theory of the buzz, that history moves in the
way of the most caffeine. I'm sure there is a thesis lurking here,
somewhere...
... I used to believe in reincarnation, but that was in another life.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: [1/2] ALLEGORY
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:09:00
EID:92a8 20932120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0367348E
AS> But the point was, Ptolemy's claims were taken as Gospel for over a
AS> thousand years...a thousand years where people accepted both the
DC> "(T)aken as Gospel"?
DC> Very nice choice of wording, Al! I don't think I could have
DC> done better. At least not in 2,000 yrs...
ROFL! Well, excuse me while I shoot myself in the OTHER foot....
That completely slipped past me.
... I'm sorry...were the voices in my head bothering you?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: [1/2] LOSING THE LABELS
|Date: 19 Apr 96 04:02:00
EID:6d62 20932040
MSGID: 1:116/19 03673830
AS> protagonists--STILL FARMS ON FOXFIELD, about Quaker settlers in a
AS> world called Foxfield. In it, she sacrifices none of her pacifism,
JB> That one rings a bell, but I can't say that I read it...maybe only a
JB> review of it.
DOOR INTO OCEAN was good, though....
JB> I'd suggest 'The Peaceable Kingdom' and 'The Lamb's War', both by Jan
JB> de Hartog. However, the Quaker fiction out there doesn't come close
to
JB> the journals of the people who were there at the beginning. (Boring
as
JB> they can be in places.)
I might look those up...
... If you shoot a mime,should you use a silencer?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 19 Apr 96 09:08:00
EID:42e5 20934900
MSGID: 1:116/19 04355FDA
AS> Okay, Marty, I hereby elevate you to the ranks of God Dan and
AS> others. You now have omnipotence.
AS> Now, make me a square circle.
AS> Take your time.
MG> Nonsense. I'm not perfect. Elevate me if you like, but I still don;t
MG> know how to do it. The perfect god should though.
What if it's un-doable? What if a perfect god decides it's a meaningless
noise? Let's try another one; can a perfect god make a black white?
(Talking pure color here, not races.) Not gray. Not stripes. Not patterns.
MG> Why is a square cirlce any different from a worldwide flood?
Well, bear in mind that I don't believe such a flood happened save in the
sense of parable or metaphor...
But seriously, there IS no reason why an omnipotent God could not drop
several hydrospheres of water here out of nowhere. Or wisk them away
later. But if He DID, He wouldn't cover the traces. God is under no
compulsion to lie. And thus, I conclude that the flood story had to be
parable or metaphor.
There is nothing logically inconsistent about the basic creating several
hydrospheres of water thing. That makes it a whole 'nother thing than a
square circle. Now, if you told me that God really DID flood the Earth,
and yet the land beneath the waves stayed dry, THAT would be LOGICALLY
inconsistent. See?
... No wanna work. Wanna bang on keyboard.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 19 Apr 96 09:04:00
EID:42e5 20934880
MSGID: 1:116/19 04356C1E
AS> Okay. I will get it for you within two weeks' time, if not
AS> before. (I'm writing this on Saturday the 13th). I should
AS> have go to the library, at the latest, by the 27th.)
MG> There is no rush as I have a plenty to do as it is. Now tht the boys
MG> are starting to play baseball we're going to be out every night.
I can understand THAT. How old are your boys, BTW? Mine are 12, 10, and
7.
MG> I did get to your web site though and read through it. No pic ad not
MG> net address to send nasty comments to....
NO PICTURES????? NO NET ADDRESS????
Oh, waitasecond. You must have JUST been looking at the anthropic
principles page. Follow the links back to my home page. Go towards the
bottom, past the picture of C.S. Lewis, the Yahoo Search tool, and there
is a mailbox to click on to send me a message. Trust me, if I had any more
pictures on my main page, it would take too long to download. I didn't
bother to put a lot of pictures on the anthropic principle stuff...where
am I going to find a picture that represents the Beryllium Bottleneck? If
you want, I can add spinning stars or something....
Maybe I should put a mailbox there on the anthropic principle page,
there, but I just assumed people would follow the link back to the home
page.
... Forgive many things in others; nothing in yourself.-Ausonius
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 19 Apr 96 09:05:00
EID:47ac 209348a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 043576A0
AS> (Grinding my teeth while saying this.) Well, I can't PROVE he's
AS> not. He certainly thinks he is doing God's work. But I can't
AS> say he's not a "real, true Christian". A lot of "real true
AS> Christians" led pogroms against the Jews. Torquemada was a
AS> "real, true Christian" in that sense. There is enough doubt
MG> Such is my point. Someone else might quote scripture to show why you
MG> are not a true Christian. It's all opinion. It would be difficult to
MG> meet all the criteria in the bible to convince everyone.
No question. Even Jesus didn't convince everyone.
... That was Zen, this is Tao.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: HITLER
|Date: 19 Apr 96 09:03:00
EID:2add 20934860
MSGID: 1:116/19 04358B36
AS> (Not the most fortunate analogy you could have made, for your
AS> side of the argument, Marty. But I liked it.)
MG> The point is, that there is physical evidence of the wood and none for
MG> any "reason" that it might be here other than guesswork. Such is the
MG> nature of evidence. It is not guesswork. we don't claim that "it's
MG> unlikely tht the universe formed by itself without a designer. We have
MG> no solid evidence to say that.
We didn't have solid evidence to deduce the existence of a ninth planet,
save in the way the outer planets' orbits were perturbed. We have no solid
evidence of cosmological inflation but it answers quite a few problems at
one stroke, so the presumption is there. We have no real evidence for
Hawking's no-boundary proposal, but he makes a case for it anyway.
MG> All I can say for the Anthropic Principle is "Why would two airplanes
MG> have a midair collision?"
Pilot error? As in free will? If the anthropic principle shows that the
Creator values intelligent life, the stress must be on intelligent. Thus
we are given coices, and must abide by them. You don't gain intelligence
by being forcefed knowledge. Sometimes you have to find out for yourself.
Now, a being in a universe where everything varied quite alarmingly with
the whim of a creator, would be intolerable...with all the consistency of
a dream, things morphing from one thing to another. Hence regular laws of
science. Hence a chance to learn from those laws, and deduce things from
them. But one cannot have consistent laws without sometimes getting
danger. You cannot have water, which is quite helpful, without the
capacity to drown in it. You can't have air without the capacity to have
one airplane run into the other.
... Good arguement. Too bad it was killed by all those vicious facts.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: the problem with Chri
|Date: 18 Apr 96 22:54:00
EID:7164 2092b6c0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 36968b13
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895F0E2D
>EF> Hey, come to think about it, that UniBomber dude
>EF> is one sincere mother
> The funny thing about this is that my local newspaper spelled the
> name of the bomber: "Unabomber"! It occurred both in the title
> of the article as well as the body.
"Unabomber" is the correct spelling. Go figure.
> ... "But we decide which is right & which is an illusion."
> -- Moody Blues
"Red is gray, and yellow, white. But we decide which one is right.
"And which IS an illusion?"
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Moody Blue Wave 2112
Rush out and buy a copy. ;-)
[GONG]
---
* Origin: Theological is not. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Ralph Jansen
|Sub: Omni-impotence
|Date: 18 Apr 96 23:28:01
EID:2a92 2092bb80
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 36968b14
REPLY: 1:398/1.0 316ff510
>MK> order...creation was his idea, and everything was
>MK> pre-planned to be this way by Him a long time ago.
> Very good...you have come to understand it. In the whole view of
> life, there is no free will.
[...] Then you proceed to state:
> The only thing that there is to hold on to is free will. Well to the
> human it is free will because he does not know what will happen, or
> what choice he will make.
Paraphrased: There is no free will, so you have to pretend that
there is, so that you can make a choice that has already been made.
Hence, no choice to be made at all. Does your head spin when you
try to think, Ralph?
You also said:
> You are weak, and stupid next to this God, and yet you think
> that you can figure Him out, or even reason Him away.
[precisely what you are attempting to do; thereby implying that
you believe yourself to be stupid] No argument from me.
> First of all, where does it say that He yearns to be worshipped. I
> mean, in an insecure way. If you were a god, and you created
> someone, and they go worship a rock because they believe it created
> them, how would you feel?
By your "reasoning" above, he is responsible for everything that
he creates, as he knows in advance how it will turn out.
Explain how an omnipotent/omniscient god can be "a jealous god".
If he knows in advance how it will turn out, not even he can change
it. If he did, that would entail that he was mistaken in what he
"knew" before - as it would turn out differently. Hence, WRONG.
An omniscient god could not be wrong about anything.
Not even an omnipotent god could change what is predestined
(required, in order for omniscience to be valid). Therefor,
omnipotence can not co-exist with omniscience; as nothing could
be changed from what is already known to be precisely so.
Seeing how omniscience precludes omnipotence, you will either:
a.) Have to choose between one concept or the other (or neither)
b.) or continue to defy reality by stupidly believing both/either
to be valid concepts.
Hints:
Omnipotence makes anything possible, including impossibility.
Bam. Just invalidated itself.
Omniscience would require that everything occur exactly as known.
That means that the omniscient being is also powerless to change
what has to be. It places future into past, by having already
declared it in its entirety. This means that your god would have
to know what he knows before he will even already know it.
Circularly contradictory. Omnicience precludes the conditional.
Hence, if you use the concept of "if"; you contradict your own
belief in omniscience/predestination.
> He has every right to have all of His creation worship Him.
> He made it all, and He is God
If he is in all time simultaneously, we were made at the same time
as him. Nothing could be any different than it is/was/will be.
That's just a hint of how bogus your "omni" concepts are.
They blow themselves apart by their own design.
Besides, man created God in his own image(s) of what they wished
to portray of their dogmatic concepts. Man continues to change
the constructs of said god, as evidenced by your differing views
from other Christian denominations.
Oh yeah. Have a nice day, Ralph. Try not to think too hard.
If you did, your day would turn out really rotten - and your
Christian friends would condemn you for turning away from their
prepackaged contradictory dogma.
---
* Origin: The death of dogma is the birth of reality. (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Starwyn
|Sub: test
|Date: 18 Apr 96 23:36:02
EID:9c64 2092bc80
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 36968b15
> Is this getting out?
Nope. Didn't see a damned thing.
I think we'll need to see many more attempts at posting here
from our illustrious high priestess before declaring this
post as a success. ;-)
> I'd like to order a large pizza please, with nothing on it.
Too late. I already sneezed.
"Make me one with everything" - some Zen Buddhist
---
* Origin: Out in the Styx - Eugene OR USR 28.8 (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 20 Apr 96 11:00:03
EID:75d1 20945800
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 378a980d
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31768993
Re: George's attempt at humor
> This echo has been the victim of the grandest practical joke
> I've ever seen.
What was practical about it?
[...]
> John's book is safe and sound - in my possession. It was
> mailed on the 10th, and arrived (after, actually, I recieved
> netmail and talked to george on the phone) on the 17th.
> With it came enclosed a US$1, which will be forwarded
> to John as well.
[...]
> As promised, a formal apology follows this message, and I,
> on my own volition, ask Styx for clemency in light of this
> new information.
Color me stubborn, but we've all had enough of George's "practical"
jokes to warrant that he seek a forum other than this one to perform
them in.
> John, if you want your book straightaway, let me know;
> either way, it will be on its way to you very shortly.
Ask John if "all's well that ends well".
While he will no doubt be relieved to receive his property,
I doubt very much that he found the ordeal to be any "funnier"
than what I did (i.e. not).
---
* Origin: Out in the Styx - Eugene OR USR 28.8 (1:152/20)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Orphan Children need God
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:58:46
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b382
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 317261a0
PID: FM 2.02
> Sorry about the header . . . it was just a minor troll to catch
> everyone's attention. You all can stop salivating now . . . };)
Flameus Interruptus!
> Richard Smith is my real name, and I'm posting this from my BBS, to
> which I've just added HolySmoke, so those FIDO operators out there can
> check their nodelists to verify this. My FIDO address is 1:203/9046.
I
> can also be reached via e-mail at richard.smith@9046.gigo.com or
> richard.smith@syrundry.gigo.com in case anyone wants to.
Great! I'm adding your ass to my card file. I'm frice@stbbs.com. I'll
e-mail you some information now, as a matter of fact.
> I'm most curious, for instance, about
> the thing concerning George . . . if anyone want's to give me a
> capsulization of the high points, that would be cool.
Oh that's easy. George is a smuck! How's _that_ for short and to the point?
~*~ Lie, Billy. Lie for the lord. - Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Airbags & Mother-in-laws
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:12:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b383
PID: FM 2.02
>>SS> Anyway, one of my fundie workmates had the audacity to
>>SS> tell me that the wreck was just god trying to get my
>>SS> attention.
Couldn't the fuck just send a postcard?!
dr> I would have kicked her in her balls and then told her god
dr> told me to to get her attention--- same excuse, same evidence.
You _do_ need a lesson in female human...
~*~ NAH NAH NNNah nah.... - Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: You Can Get Help
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:13:37
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b384
PID: FM 2.02
> Please call 1-800-215-9377 or visit their Internet site at
> http://www.impotent.com
>
> You're welcome.
Check your oil level, man! You're starting to behave like me!
~*~ "...this would be the best of all possible worlds, if
there were no religion in it." - John Adams
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: BBS in the back ground.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:15:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b385
REPLY: 1:271/460 3173df12
PID: FM 2.02
> Just noticed yesterday that I am having problems with the FrontDoor
> running in the background. I get timeouts while sending or recieving
> files in the background. No problem at all while in the foreground. Any
> ideas?
Did you create a PIF file, you inbred moron? (Just trying to help.)
~*~ 2 Kings
6:28 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she
answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may
eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow.
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Watch Jesse Christ Jones
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:21:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b386
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31743286
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I haven't seen it yet either. It's doubtful that the fundy
FR> learned from his previous mistakes so I'll just continue to
FR> look for it.
sq> I'm about overdue to rattle his cage.
It appears as though his well was poisoned enough that he elected not to.
I seriously doubt that he's finally admitted that Easter has nothing to
do with his cult. Now we'll have to wait for Thanksgiving.
sq> Every time he comes in here saying how he's going to "combat
sq> the evil," I have to stifle my yawns.
I don't! it's _classic_ fundytude. It brings a smile to my
face and a soft chuckle, often with a shake of the head in wonderment.
sq> The poor bastard doesn't even have the first clue
sq> as to what evil - really- is.
Um... That would be religion. Do I win a prize?
sq> If a "gang bang echo" (as he puts it) is the worst thing of
sq> which humanity is capable, then the planet is in good shape.
sq> However, I find Mr. Jones's view to be limited, at best.
Well, he's not going anywhere. He'll make another mistake, open his yap,
and demand another pagan holiday as his cult's own soon enough.
~*~ The wheels of scientific inquiry and discovery
are greased by caffeine. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: ryan shaw
|Sub: Christanics murdering
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:23:06
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b387
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 1745b366
PID: FM 2.02
> ALBANY [that's Oregon] -- A manslaughter trial began Monday for a
> Brownsville couple whose son died of leukemia after they refused, for
> religious reasons, to allow him to have medical treatment.
> Prospective jurors were questioned about their religious beliefs Monday
> in the trial of Loyd and Christina Hays.
I wonder why they would ask that question if not to tailor the jury.
~*~ But your juvenile campaign of attacking and deriding people of
religious faith may be doing incalculable damage -- for which you
will stand accountable before the ultimate reality.
- Jesse C. Jones (HolySmoke forum)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: The Apocalypse NOT
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:25:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b388
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 31742b9c
PID: FM 2.02
BA> He is to be esteemed, as he is the original
BA> part of the Vine: I have been grafted on.
rs> Firstly, that is actually Dionysus, and
rs> secondly, isn't that a tad homoerotic?
Welcome back!
BA> What are you going to do for him?
Debunk fundies.
~*~ I'm sorry I refuse to answer your question. - Marguerite Kendall
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: I find it amazing
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:29:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b389
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 31742c52
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I'm finding it amazing that so many Christians are
FR> unwilling to accept the fact that Adolf Hitler was a
FR> Christian. I expected fundies to deny the truth and yet
rs> Ignorance is bliss, and pretended ignorance is ecstasy, I guess.
It's not as if this one destroys the cult entirely, though. Yes, it's an
embarrassment, but they should just get over it.
Next they'll start denying that Jim Jones was a Christian.
~*~ We are all in need of salvation. I may not know you, but knowing you
are an atheist, I know you need to be saved. It must be extremely
difficult to be an atheist? - Scott Shiflett, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: What George did
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:30:19
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38a
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 31745e40
PID: FM 2.02
rs> I've been away a while and missed the whole thing . . . any chance I
rs> can get a copy of those archived bits pertaining to George
The archives are up to 48meg and I have yet to create a search engine.
Unless I'm asked to provide the information for court, and until I write
a search engine which will extract the messages from the archives, it's
an effort I'm not willing to engage in.
~*~ ARE YOU WILLING TO SUBJECT ALL PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE YOUR VIEWS TO YOUR
TORTURES? EVEN IF THEY ARE YOUR OWN CHILDREN? - David Stoddard
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get over it.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:33:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38b
REPLY: 1:116/19 0486D720
PID: FM 2.02
EF> For those interested in such things, a quick analysis of
EF> Fred's question might be in order. It is fascinating in
EF> that there is much more here than one might detect at first
EF> glance.
JH> If you're going to persue this you need to archive each and
JH> every message. Fred will run you around a 40 acre field and
JH> end up claiming he never made the original statement.
JH> Either that or he will "prove" that you are Jim Staal.
as> Maybe you should wonder what sort of reputation you are building here,
I'm not in the least bit concerned. We've already seen that Adolf
Hitler was undeniably a Christian and that Christian churches officially
were in agreement with Hitler's agenda. Trying to concoct elaborate "explanations"
for his Christianity which deny the truth after the man has been dead for
decades by those uncomfortable with the embarrassing truth should be enough
to indicate who's exposing the truth of the matter.
It's easy calling a dead man a liar, huh?
~*~ To have an understanding of the universe one doesn't need
scientific technology. - Andrew Conner (A New Age Creationist)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: What sex are you?
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:38:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38c
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3174e8bc
PID: FM 2.02
FR> The film star Jamie Lee Curtis is one well-known individual who
FR> is genetically male, but phenotypically female.
FR> Pub Date: 3/17/96
rs> You know, I was rocking along with this thing pretty good when I hit
rs> the Jamie Lee Curtis bump and all hell broke loose around here . . .
rs> };) Has this been substantiated? Jamie Lee Curtis? C'mon, say it
rs> isn't so . . .
This article cam across my desk in the early morning hours and I was tickled
by it enough to post it without comment nor a check in the files archives
to see if there's anything else on this phenomena. It seems to have something
important to say about Christanic death cultists wanting to demand that
gays pick their sexuality.
As for Curtis, my guess is you'll have to ask it. }:-}
~*~ The stronger the supernatural beliefs, the worse the inhumanity.
- James A. Haught
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Chinese are all dead.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:46:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38d
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5c0c9f73
PID: FM 2.02
FR> You've obviously never learn geology, paleontology, archeology, or
FR> asked why the Chinese failed to notice their own obliteration.
dm> The Chinese are a notoriously stubborn people.
FR> So much so over a billion of them refuse to be dead? According
FR> to this Creationist lunatic, they should all be.
kw> Why Fred, they just held their breath.
kw> They knew that the Christian missionaries would come to save
kw> their souls, if they just could hold out long enough.
Could that explain their skin coloration? (Running away covering ass.)
~*~ A year long global flood? Sure...Why is there no evidence then? - ML
Umm... "the evidence was destroyed in the flood." - Styx Allum
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Shrinking Sun occultism
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:51:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38e
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a28717bd
PID: FM 2.02
> FR> When I first saw the "Shrinking Sun Theory" some years ago,
> FR> (as told to me by a creationist on a BBS) a rate of
> FR> approximately 1% per year was given. A book titled, "Our
> FR> Turbulent Sun" was the source of this idea. In chapter 6,
> FR> "The Shrinking Sun", creationists took statements like the
> FR> following:
[...cuts...]
kw> Are you telling me that the fundies believe in an
kw> Omniwhateverittakes God who cant even make a Sun
kw> that isn't shrinking?
Welp, see, the Christanic deity constructors planned it that way. Why create
a god that creates a Sun that'll run nuclear main stage for 40 billion years
if it's only needed for a few thousand? Heathens would call their deity
construct wasteful.
kw> What happened, did God wash it in all that hot water from the flood?
The Sun wouldn't even notice dropping several Earths into it other than
with perhaps a minor burp.
kw> 'Lord, but male deities are dumb.'
Welp, look at who created them.
~*~ Ok, please explain the difference between facts and truth - J. Conwell
Facts are what the educated accept as truth.
Truths are what fundies are told to accept as fact. - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Bill Wolff
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:53:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b38f
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 dd715f8e
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Carl Sagan's mouth.
em> While looking at this, it occurred to me that if you count
em> forward from the bottom of the alphabet to the middle letter
em> in "Sagan", and then count backward the same number of
em> letters from the top of the alphabet and replace the middle
em> letter with the resultant letter, you get the name of a
em> fictitious biblical character!
Don't say that too loud or Christanics will violate the Constitution pretending
to "save the christian!" from scientists.
~*~ Butting heads with fundies is best left to Goats - Styx Allum
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Trosch
|Sub: Relig/Free Speech Lawsuit
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:55:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b390
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89624389
PID: FM 2.02
> Christians should soon expect to be required to profess:
> 1. Human beings do not exist from the moment of conception!
> 2. Abortion is not murder!
> 3. All religious beliefs need government approval!
Ah, yes. Pretend that Christanic death cultists are going to have to register
with the state and that they're going to be persecuted and executed...
How typical.
My guess is that your masters need new cars and are whipping the ignorant
unwashed rabble into a paying frenzie to "fight this evil!" Right?
~*~ "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a
revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales,
legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation
that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: The Raven
|Sub: False Prophets (Like there are true ones?)
|Date: 28 Apr 96 09:57:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b391
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3175d6d1
PID: FM 2.02
> "This just in from our Moscow Bureau..."
Comrad Raven! Long time no!
>> BEWARE!
>> David J. Smith (Newswatch magazine) is a Zionist stooge.
FR> Yes, Jim. We know. We are too.
Every bigot is Jim Staal until proven otherwise. The FY factor.
tr> Should we let him know that just about everyone on this echo is a
tr> zionist stooge? That way maybe he's hie his ass out the door...
I won't be a Zionist stooge until I get paid for the last three months.
~*~ What is more important to you, the basis of ethics or that they exist?
- Simon Ewins
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGLED FUNDY
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:00:52
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b392
REPLY: 1:3819/163 3175D070
PID: FM 2.02
mb> No I know the truth, I just can not adequately explain it to you.
FR> The truth requires no one to explain, Mark, merely present it.
mb> The truth is in the Bible.
Oh? Which version of the "resurrection" myth is true and which is a Satanic
lie? Which version of the "genesis" mythologies is true and which is a
Satanic lie?
mb> Your Brother in Christ,
FR> Here you are trying to give your intellectual superiors an Alpha Male
FR> construct. Don't you think that's pretty ignorant?
mb> No I am trying to be freindly.
No, you're trying to include your intellectual superiors in your deadly
ideological constructs. You concocted an unreachable Alpha Male construct
to idolize and -- when you find that people stronger and smarter than you
don't need fictional constructs to bow down and worship -- you try to include
them in your delusion.
After all, can't have everyone pointing at you and laughing, now can we?
~*~ I believe that baptism is a good thing,
with a little soap. - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:02:42
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b393
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 176d0cd2
PID: FM 2.02
tlp> Speaking of bounced messages, I have no idea why this one bounced!
FR> No doubt it was the Conspiracy who drive those black helicopters
FR> that are out to destroy you.
tlp> Perhaps I'm getting forgetful in my dotage but,
tlp> I don't recognize what this is supposed to be about.
You won't be given back your memories until you hand over the negatives.
~*~ What is so amazing about a baby being born from a virgin? - James Conwell
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: CHRISTANIC BLOW JOBS
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:05:21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b394
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89640E26
PID: FM 2.02
FR> local elections are _far_ more important than pretending to vote for
a
FR> president. That may change depending on how the line-item veto is used.
dc> Line item veto is the only way that accountabilty
dc> for the bad laws and riders can be assessed.
I've certainly complained about good laws getting canned due to riders and
this does seem to be a good way to solve the problem. Still, it grants
a level of power, as I understand, never before given a president.
~*~ By the way, I could prove Carl Sagan wrong, but
what would it get me? - Bill Wolff
Debunked, as usual. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:07:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b395
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31768993
PID: FM 2.02
> This echo has been the victim of the grandest practical joke I've
> ever seen.
> George got you, got you, got you, and got me too. And our little
> dogs, too.
> John's book is safe and sound - in my possession. It was mailed on
> the 10th, and arrived (after, actually, I recieved netmail and
> talked to george on the phone) on the 17th. With it came enclosed a
> US$1, which will be forwarded to John as well.
George is shit. It wasn't a joke. He got called to task for his extortion
then demanded it was just a joke.
~*~ No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you were
gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not have
happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ralph Jansen
|Sub: Christian death cult
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:20:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b396
REPLY: 1:398/1.0 3176c0e6
PID: FM 2.02
AH> It's Easter, folks. About 2,000 years ago, Jesus came out
AH> of his hole, and saw his shadow. Six weeks of bad weather
AH> followed.
DR> And twenty centuries of death, misery, and unimaginable agony at
DR> the hands of the people claiming to follow Jesus' teachings.
rj> That does seem to be a problem doesn't it.
There's an understatement.
rj> They only claim to follow Jesus' teachings,
rj> yet their lives show otherwise.
No, actually the actions of Christians historically denote what Christianity
is all about, just as the actions of the KKK denotes what the KKK is all
about. Pretending that Christanic death cultists aren't engaged in and haven't
engaged in what they do is nonsense.
"The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because
thereby Christ himself is glorified." -- Saint Bernard
of Clairvaux
Historically the Christanic death cult "followed" the "Jesus" mythos in
lock step all the way. That's what happens when you concoct a fictional
construct to justify inhuman tyrannies against innocent people.
ACTIONS, not WORDS, Ralph. Let's not forget that.
rj> So why must it be said that that is all Christianity has to show.
The 'baby' doesn't exist in Christanity. It was a myth
designed to justify the bath water. - Fredric Rice
Nazi Germany fascism also had some good points. Christainity has been and
continues to be the single worse tyranny inflicted against humanity bar
none. Only disease has claimed to fame over religion's murdering others.
That's not to single out the Christanic death cult, I might add. Islamic
crazies are quickly approaching Christanity's body count and Judaism also
has bloody hands.
rj> Remember, Christians say that there is
rj> sin in the world, and that no one is free of it.
And they use that deadly ideological fiction to justify the murder of innocent
people. That's the whole swatting point!
rj> If someone only says that they follow Jesus, but have
rj> not been changed, then they cannot do what He says.
Since no one knows what the "Jesus" myth said, it's easy to put words in
the fictional construct's mouth -- that's what the Christanic death cult
was created for, after all.
~*~ Christ will come sameday. - Leonard Bernier
And that's even better than overnight. - DON MARTIN
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: BBS in the back ground.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:21:22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b397
REPLY: 1:271/460 3177bd61
PID: FM 2.02
KM>> the foreground. Any ideas?
rs> Pray to your god. He should be able to fix it, should he not?
km> But then I wouldn't learn anything would I?
You never even try to. Doubt it? Drink up.
~*~ I had two margaritta's, and was eyeing the women like
a deer eyes oncoming headlights. - David Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ric Carter
|Sub: Fertility rituals!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:25:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b398
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Well, tonight's the night that we hide reproductive
FR> organs around the place for our offspring to search
FR> for in the morning. Anyone still pretending it has
FR> something to do with Christianity?
rc> Let's see, Jeshua rode into Jerusalem atop a giant rabbit that
rc> laid magic eggs all along its path, by which miracle he fed the
rc> starving multitudes, who them proclaimed him the Creator of Egg
rc> McMuffins and strewed pink excelsior on the roadways, whilst
...cuts...
You know, your version at least is consistant. The Christanic versions
conflict with each other. }:-}
~*~ I live to defend in this scum hole. - Richard Thorneycroft (HolySmoke)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: "No True Christian...
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:26:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b399
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895E0E30
PID: FM 2.02
EF> True, you deny this in so many words, but then you turn around and
EF> claim: 'this is what the Bible (or God) says!'
JG> I always clarify at times like these, that this is how I personally
JG> interpret the bible. AT no time do I say everyone has to agree with
JG> me.
dc> I personally interpret the bible as a collection of 1/2 truths,
dc> lies and mythology. Therefore, my interpretation is just as
dc> correct as yours. Moreso, as the errors and lies of the bible
dc> can be shown to be there.
But then "Satan" guides your hands as you turn the pages of his paper idol.
~*~ Yes, I'd bow down before your god... to make sure that the
bastard was dead. - Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco rememberance: No one killed this year. Yet.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:28:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39a
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 16ee2010
PID: FM 2.02
KDM> Because the FBI wasn't responsible for the children being there.
tlp> Regardless of who's responsible for the kids being there, govt
tlp> was NOTjustified in running tanks thru the kid occupied residence.
Do you have any EVIDENCE that "the government" ran tanks through ANYONE'S
residence? Any at all? Or are you just gonna continue to shit out your
pretend conspiracy and ignore having to present evidence as usual?
~*~ Are you really this stupid, or is your medication wearing off?
- David Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: NBC's Airing of "The Mysterious Origins of Man"
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:29:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39b
REPLY: 1:115/769.2 cd955d0f
PID: FM 2.02
MG> Do you honestly think that we are as stupid as you Billy.
bw> No Martin. I know for a fact, that you are a silly little fool.
Certainly you do, Bill. You expected to be able to lie to us about Carl
Sagan being a Creationist and, when it was proven to be a lie, you got hurt
and resentful. You think we're just as stupid as you are. It turns out
that we're not.
~*~ Noah was not a Jew. He is the ancestor of the Jews and everyone else.
- Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: #HOLYSMOKE STILL GOING STRONG!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:32:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> What? Have I fucked up? }:-}
jb> Didn't you forget some people? Like those in the Mountain Zone?
What's East of California doesn't exist.
~*~ He'd ask "Have the cops been hot?" and sometimes I'd say "Yes"
and he'd get nervous and leave.
-- Debra Murphree, refering to Jimmy Swaggart
(Penthouse magazine, July 1988)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Terry Parker: FBI doesn't know him else they're not talking.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:40:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39d
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Does this list consist of a lot of right-wing extremist lunatics who
FR> LIE about how mysterious invisible tanks drive over invisible
jb> Does TLP post from Florida? (I'm still not very
jb> good at reading node numbers)
I never looked into where he posts from. At first guess I would say "Montana."
But the right-wing extremists in my archives are located all around
the country. The BATF official report indicates that few states lack these
self-proclaimed "militias." I do know that Linda Thompson is one of his
buddies and I have _extensive_ archives on Thompson and her group.
jb> We were in Jax this week (yes, I actually got out of the
jb> house for the first time in 2 years) and coming back from
jb> my daughter's grave I saw this huge religious complex.
jb> Called the 'Terry Parker' Baptist Church and the 'Terry
jb> Parker Baptist Church Recreation Center'.
Here at the CIA }:-} I did a little digging into what I could find on a
"Terry Liberty-Parker" and found some dated text to and from him. He's
not important enough to warrant special mention in any of my FBI file document
searches and requests to FBI officers result in either no response, a statement
that self- professed "militias" are of concern and are being evaluated in
terms of domestic security, or responses which state that Parker isn't in
their computer. The BATF appears to be taking these lunatics as seriously
as the FBI does.
It's been some time since I last searched. I think I'll run through it
again this afternoon.
~*~ Gay people are worshipers of SATIN - Don Ward
Some prefer silk. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:47:05
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39e
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1bc
PID: FM 2.02
EF> Now I'm not saying that no extermination of the
EF> mentally ill, and no sterilization took place prior to
EF> 1933. I don't know - nor does it bear on the
EF> discussion. But the facts in action are that if such
EF> things DID occur. they didn't happen in _Nazi_ Germany
EF> - by definition.
fr> Amazing.
ef> Yes indeed, Fred. History can be amazing once you study it.
I suspect that you're trying to demand that "by definition" the extermination
of the mentally insane didn't happen "under Nazi Germany" because you want
to believe that Hitler's party didn't come to power until well after the
program was launched.
That's utterly dishonest. It's an attempt to detract from the undeniable
fact that Hitler was a Christian in an obscure (and totally dishonest) way.
It ignores all the references I've posted to the contrary.
I find it amazing that so many people are embarrassed by the truth that
Hitler was a Christian to the point where they must concoct elaborate "explanations"
for his Christanity decades after he's dead while glibly ignoreing outright
the historic documents to the contrary.
It's easy to call a dead man a liar and not have to worry about a rebuttle.
~*~ First we'll spank your big behinds.. then we'll
twist your little minds... - Styx
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Resentful idiot?
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:50:19
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b39f
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1c5
PID: FM 2.02
EF> Now I'm not saying that no extermination of the
EF> mentally ill, and no sterilization took place prior to
EF> 1933. I don't know - nor does it bear on the
EF> discussion. But the facts in action are that if such
EF> things DID occur. they didn't happen in _Nazi_ Germany
EF> - by definition.
fr> Amazing.
fr> You don't happen to believe that the Jewish
fr> Holocaust didn't either, do you?
[...cuts...]
ef> Once his hidden premise is seen, we can see Fred's question
ef> is a type of interrogation fallacy: a "have you stopped beating
ef> your wife?" question. It is a ploy common to lawyers and politicians.
Oh dear. Next you'll accuse me of being a Nazi.
People who deny the extermination of the mentally ill and the politically
unsavory under the Nazi Germany reich have and continue to deny the fact
of the Jewish Holocaust, Ellidiott. My query is an honest one -- and yet
for some mysterious reason you elected not to answer it.
Gee. 'Wonder why.
~*~ "Thank you, God...may I have another?" - Steve Quarrella
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Denial is silly.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 10:54:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a0
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1ce
PID: FM 2.02
fr> What's interesting is that you elected to ignore all
fr> the direct quotes from Adolf Hitler that I posted
fr> and all the signatories by official Christian churches
fr> which stated agreement with Hitler's plans.
ef> To quote you: "amazing." Despite the plain evidence to
ef> the contrary (note my post reproduced below, the one you
ef> deny exists) you claim I "ignored" your quotes.
Do you have any evidence that I claimed a post of yours doesn't exist?
What we find is that you ignored out-of-hand (twice!) the quotes I posted
which Hitler himself stated. When I pointed the fact out to you, you eventually
elected to address each of the quotes -- again passing them off as "propaganda"
and lies.
Let's not try to rewrite history yet again, okay?
Your belated "rebuttles" to each of the quotes were little better than "is
not!" When it was pointed out to you that the S. S. had to state their
belief in deity constructs, you glibly pouted "I don't see any mention of
the Christian gods, do you?" in an attempt to foister the absurd notion
that Hitler and his S. S. were some how believers in some other gods and
not the Christian gods. That's a dishonesty worthy of a Creationist. It
ignores the _OTHER_ quote you previously ignored about the percentage of
individuals under Nazi Germany who were Christians. It ignores the quotes
by Hitler himself which specifically state that he was a Catholic. (There's
that calling dead people liars again.)
Unless you want to play pretend that Catholics aren't Christians at which
point there's the crux of your problem.
A little honesty would go a long way, Elliott. It's perfectly okay to admit
that being a Christian doesn't do a damn thing to stop someone from being
an inhuman tyrant. You're trying to defend Christianity's history by pretending
Hitler wasn't a Christian.
~*~ Picking my favorite Christian is like picking my
favorite debilitating disease >> - David Worrell
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: And the denials continue, I see.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:07:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a1
REPLY: 1:215/130 0010a1d8
PID: FM 2.02
ef> Here is the evidence again Fred.
Ah, yes. Ignore the truth straight from the mouth of Hitler and the Christian
churches he worked with, and then glibly spout, "Here. Read this instead."
It doesn't quite work like that, Elliott. The truth won't simply disappear
because you want to post belated denials long after the fact. And in fact
I see you do just that later:
ef> You are not required to answer or respond to it in any way - as
ef> per the last two times I posted it. This time, however, your
ef> non-response will be accepted as your plea of nolo: tacit
ef> admission that you cannot refute the evidence and stand corrected.
Amazing. After I rubbed your nose in not responding to the hurtful truth,
you _eventually_ offered your glib denials. In resentment you now demand
that -- not only did your "rebuttles" not get totally debunked but that
my responses were never typed up and mailed.
How so very nearly Creationist of you.
ef> The smoking gun is the nazis plan to destroy Christianity
ef> in Germany. They and started taking over churches to that
ef> end, forming the "National Reich Church"
Ah, yes... The wishful commentary of those who are embarrassed by the truth
long after the fact. How easy to deny the words of a dead man and ignore
the historic record as lies.
Let's ignore the words and actions of Hitler and his party entirely and
accept what was written about him to deny his Christianity long after his
death, right? Don't like the fact that Hitler said he was a Christian and
that Christian churches were signatory to his agenda and in full agreement?
Wait until he's been dead for decades and then write commentary while ignoring
the historic documents.
Amazing.
~*~ None of the people who claim to have found God have given us
any reason to accept that they have, indeed, found anything
but their own delusions. - Kelsey Bjarnason
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Jesse fucks up again and won't admit it
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:10:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a2
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 24683f44
PID: FM 2.02
FR> people like Jones drive the nation's expenses up, at least I and
FR> my sons won't have these lunatics to compete with in the job
FR> marketplace.
jcj> Don't write their applications for them, okay? It's "my sons and I."
FR> That's an interesting accusation yet I suspect you've stuffed
FR> your lawyer foot into your lawyer mouth. The inclusive case may
FR> be formed correctly using either syntax. You're probably
FR> suffering under the delusion that I typed "me and my sons."
jcj> Inclusive case?!? Sorry, I can't even
jcj> find such an animal in any work I have.
FR> Can't admit you're wrong, huh? Was the truth of what I said so
FR> hurtful that it's driven you to such resentment? (Gee, and I didn't
FR> even mention Christmas trees in that one.)
FR> Feel free to correct my spelling, lawyer, as I can use it. Yet when
FR> you fuck up, have the decorum to admit it -- if not to everyone else
FR> then at least to yourself.
jcj> Sputter all you want to, you illiterate asshole.
jcj> "I and my sons" is never correct grammar.
It's certain that your getting caught with your foot in your mouth is embarrassing,
Jesse, but you should at least keep your mouth shut after the fact to deny
the possibility of making your error worse.
But then you labor under a great many wishful self-delusions, don't you?
By the way: Get a job.
~*~ BUT... if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, until
I am proven wrong I am right. -- Zach Webb, HOLYSMOKE FidoNet
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: The Raven
|Sub: READ YOUR MESSAGE AGAIN, DICKWAD!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:14:15
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a3
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 317797df
PID: FM 2.02
TR> Why? You are certainly capable of such a tactless and idiotic
TR> maneuver. On top of it all, you are enough of a shitlip to
TR> actually do it.
FR> Well it certainly seems as though you've shoved your foot in your
FR> mouth. Staal already apologized for his unfounded accusation.
tr> Whether or not he was lying is beside the point, dickhead.
Hardly. The fact is that he DID lie and the fact is that he DID apologize
for his lie. Your message indicates that I would do such a thing. You
kinda fucked up on all three accounts, huh?
But that's okay. I forgive you. I shall evidence the higher morality.
tr> If you would bother rereading my message, I said you had the
tr> capacity to committ the acts he had accused you of, not that
tr> you had done them.
And you were wrong. Embarrassing, huh?
FR> You're not a Creationist by any chance, are you?
tr> To answer your question, I will fall back on the wisdom of
tr> the immortal Hunter S. Thompson, who, in July of 1985, said
tr> "Bite my crank, you two- bit maladjusted odorous baboon."
Sorry. Not my table.
~*~ If the women would stay at home and take care of the kids, we
wouldn't be having this mess! - Shawn Swanner
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Hardly's truth filter
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:20:50
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a4
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 36950d36
PID: FM 2.02
dm> Bullshit! When have you EVER seen any truth
dm> in one of his messages? It's working FINE!
fr>> }:-} There's an idea... Put a truth
fr>> filter on everything that goes _out_.
sm> His system would EXPLODE!!!!!
How sad!
sm> Or his brain...... or some such........
Splattering innocent people with what, exactly? }:-}
~*~ Faith fills the fundy head...where facts and knowledge fear to tread.
- Steve Rose
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: The Chinese are all dead.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:22:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a5
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 36950d33
PID: FM 2.02
FR> There is no evidence whatsoever for the event of a "global flood."
gw> You've obviously never floated down the Rhine river. Or climbed Mt.
gw> Pilatus on Switzerland. Or talked to "Dinosaur Bob" from Montana...
gw> Now then.
FR> You've obviously never learn geology, paleontology, archeology, or
FR> asked why the Chinese failed to notice their own obliteration.
dm> The Chinese are a notoriously stubborn people.
fr> So much so over a billion of them refuse to be dead? According
fr> to this Creationist lunatic, they should all be.
sm> ÛÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛ
sm> Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û ÛÛÛÛÛÛ Û Û Û Û ÛÛ
sm> ÛÛÛÛÛ Û Û Û ÛÛÛ Û Û ÛÛ Û ÛÛÛÛÛ Û Û ÛÛ
sm> Û ÛÛ Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û Û
sm> ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛ
I'd like to see them REALLY start laughing when some Creationist fundy tries
to explain to them why they're all dead.
~*~ Wait on God - Phil Morrison
Sorry, not my table. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Hardly's Truth filter
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:23:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a6
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 36950d34
PID: FM 2.02
fr> By the way: Your truth filter is still broken.
sm> False. Evidently Phidaux has been munching your messagefeed as well.....
sm> He posted a message recently declaring that he turned it off.
I eventually got his message saying he turned it off. I would expect to
see messages entered into a system come out in the same order if they follow
the same path. The path must have been different.
Fidonet's so cool!
~*~ ...you have willingly joined the legion of Satans's angels. - Ron Ballew
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Typical theist dishonesty
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:28:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a7
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 36950d35
PID: FM 2.02
DH> Atheism asserts that there is no God (god).
fr> Oh? Care to give us the name of ANY atheist in this forum which
fr> states that? Or are you just lying because it's expected of
fr> Christians?
>>> Let me restate. Atheism according to Webster:
>>> atheism (n) 1. a disbelief in the existence of deity.
>>> 2. the doctrine that there is no deity.
>>> atheist (n) 1. one who denies the existence of God.
fr> Your "Webster" is wrong (or you're using a definition you just made
up.)
sm> Neither. The Websters were good, strong,
sm> believing Protestant Christians.
sm> Their lexicography is therefore skewed.
Just as the Gallup organization can never be trusted,.
sm> As Judith Bandsma pointed out, several dictionaries would be
sm> superior to Webster's for this purpose. Like Judith, I recommend
sm> the Oxford Universal Unabridged Dictionary.
I'm using encyclopedias and such which are dated from before the Mecury
missions. I find that Christanic intrusion into history to "correct" an
embarrassing fact is less the further back in time one goes.
sm> Be sure to know who your crane operator is when you attempt this,
sm> however. The OUD weigs in at about 100 kg or so......... :-)
sm> (Thank Goat for CD-ROM.......)
What's your CD say about "atheism" and "atheist?"
fr> Atheism is the lack of belief in the existance of deity constructs.
sm> A definition that more honest lexicographers support........
One that includes _all_ gods and goddesses, not just one male god mistakenly
capitalized to try to lend it creedence over all the millions of others.
~*~ I've met guys and gals that clean animal cages who
say they are "scientists". - Richard Thorneycroft
As an inmate? - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rena Mcgee
|Sub: Hitler WAS a Christian. Time to get over it.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:30:42
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a8
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I can't help but wonder what these people want to pretend are "TRUE
FR> Christians." It would appear to be that a "TRUE Christian" is the
FR> person making the claim and that everyone else is a "FALSE Christian."
rm> The Nazis *did* have a mystical/occultic system cobbled together
rm> though...how "christian" by any definition is that?
The fact that Hitler was a Catholic and professed same until his suicide,
for one. The many speeches he made which justified his programs as a Christian,
for others.
I've been posting his own words and the statements by Christian church leaders
in this forum and yet I've been met with glib rebuttles and ad-hoc commentary
written after his death to "explain" why he wasn't a Christian.
Hitler said he was. Most of Europe's Christian churches agreed. That should
be good enough. Calling a dead man a liar is easy to get away with.
~*~ The Cosmic Star Goat told us you would not provide evidence.
-- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: The truth fits. Wear it.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:34:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3a9
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 65a43c8c
PID: FM 2.02
FR>>You're not _allowed_ to ask questions about your cult, leave
FR>>alone accept answers.
JcJ> Shut up and answer the question, Fred. What is a "fundy"?
jjh> Somehow this reminds me of those exchanges between a Zen master and
jjh> a novice monk. You ask a rhetorical question. Fred replies with a
jjh> non-answer. You whap him on top of his head with your Zen-Stick and
jjh> repeat the process until one of you becomes enlightened.
Eventually the one with the softest head starts mumbeling about
invisible playfriends being responsible for emotions.
A George Bush Dollar says he'll insist his question isn't rhetorical.
~*~ "I was on my knees, doggie-style, with my feet hanging off the bed...
He pulled his jogging suit down around his ankles and left his T-shirt
on... He stuck it in and pumped a couple of time and pulled it out...
He was very easy. A few pumps and that was it. He'd just moan, and as
soon as he got done, he'd throw the rubber in the trash, tuck it in and
walk out the door."
-- Debra Murphree refering to Jimmy Swaggart
(Penthouse magazine, July 1988)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:37:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3aa
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 65a68c2b
PID: FM 2.02
> DUBAI, April 1 (Reuter) - An unidentified flying object was
> sighted last week in Saudi Arabia's oil-producing eastern
> region, a Saudi newspaper reported on Monday.
Too damn cool! It's neat to see that George's spews are being put to good
use.
~*~ Ohh! Ohh! Hit me! Beat me! Make me install WINDOWS 3.1!~ ;-)
- Gary Glunz
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: His Daily Charmin
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:43:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3ab
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 bde6ca66
PID: FM 2.02
GM> TO GROW TALL IN YOUR FAITH,
em> Renounce your synaptic assets and
And one's humanity.
GM> ROOT YOUR LIFE IN PRAYER.
That'll make hurtful, harsh, cold reality disappear.
~*~ "assassinating his character"? Goat, man, his
character has committed SUICIDE. - Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: His Daily Flogging
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:49:44
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3ac
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 eee38490
PID: FM 2.02
GM> Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man, but afterward his
GM> mouth will be filled with gravel. -Proverbs 20:17
em> As a child, after being pushed face-down in the church parking
em> lot by the believers, (for not believing) I learned that there
em> is more than one way to enjoy a nice gravel lunch.
You got off _lucky_. Some of the people here have been beaten and their
lives ruined by "well meaning" family members.
GM> Solomon used this imagery to speak of the bread of deceit.
Ah, yes. The "godly man" who boastsed of having 10,000 wives, fucking dozens
of them daily, and "rending his garments" when he learned that a woman who
made an agreement to eat her son with another woman broke her agreement.
Lovely role models these fundies pick, huh?
em> Whereas, the pedophilic death-cultist who indoctrinates
em> children into lifelong (sometimes, ha ha!) servitude to the
em> subconscious demonic fabrications of superstition shall find himself
>
em> with a mouthful of lutefisk. Minnesota Lutherans from Hell. Yee-Ha!
That's child abuse in any other context than cultism. Claim deity and get
away with murder.
em> The Sunday practice of psychological child molestation, OTOH,
em> is A-OK according to the christ/satan cult.
Woops! I see you've got that base covered.
~*~ JESUS CHRIST WILL COME, WETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT. - Leonard Bernier
He sure is taking a long time. I'm quite sore. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: The Raven
|Sub: AGS vs. Mark Craig
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:52:34
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3ad
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3179c508
PID: FM 2.02
Anthony Grigor-Scott
MC> and his job is to divide the Church (Catholics and Protestants).
I though that was _our_ job! I'm getting paid for it, anyway.
AG> NO way! the Roman Catholics were at no time `the Church'.
AG> Rome has always been the apostate FALSE church.
tr> LOOK! DUELLING CONSPIRACY THEORISTS!
That's so cute! Yet neither explained how J.F.K. and Henry Kissinger work
into the conspiracy equation.
~*~ the most rationalistic skeptic, the most wicked and profane and vile,
will all one day bow their knees and proclaim that He is the Lord of
all! - Johnny Mckinney
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Quoting
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:54:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3ae
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3178f05c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> ~*~ I didn't join the Human race -- I was drafted. - Fredric Rice
sa> ROFL! My sentiments exactly. How do you
sa> get out of this chicken outfit, anyway?
FR> Oh that's _EASY_! Join the Christian death cult and wait for the BATF
FR> to come take you and your leaders out of the gene pool.
sa> I was thinking more along the lines of a species-change operation.
My suggestion does nearly that.
~*~ And in what way is religion a form of fantasy - MARIA RUSSELL
In what way is citrus a form of fruit? - DAVID RICE
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Survey
|Date: 28 Apr 96 11:56:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3af
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3178f05a
PID: FM 2.02
WH> ~SURVEY ON VIEWS OF SIN AND LIFE AFTER DEATH~
WH> Age: Gender:
sa> 27 (I think).
sa> F, according to my passport.
Couldn't you ask a doctor?
WH> Denomination/Church group:
sa> Taoist
A George Bush buck says he was fishing for a _Christian_ brand name.
~*~ We're all gonna die one way or another. - John Prewett
Why don't you just give yourself a Remington tonsillectomy then?
- Shelby Sherman
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: The problem with putzes . . .
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:00:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b0
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 317a7ea0
PID: FM 2.02
dm> This just in from the New Republic, "Notebook" (May 8, 1996:8):
dm>
dm> Sic transit: The Iranian News media has had difficulty
dm> reporting on the American presidential election because
dm> "Dole" is a Farsi slang term for "penis."
And this is from a country that so many Christians here wish to
emulate. I wonder how they refer to him.
~*~ Pssss! Jesus is dead. Pass it on. - David Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Adolph Hitler Was a Christian
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:02:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b1
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3179863a
PID: FM 2.02
RS> This last part wouldn't have mattered, though. Regardless of if he
RS> got last rites or not in the Catholic Church, killing himself would
RS> have sent him to Hell regardless. So that last point is moot, right?
rJ> Depends. Anyone happen to know if Martin Bormann was a priest?
rs> I don't. But my understanding of Catholicism (notably not up to snuff,
rs> since I haven't had any Catholic lessons in about 30 years) is that
no
rs> matter what happens, even IF it's absolved by a priest, suicide is
rs> still a mortal sin, period.
It's interesting to note that if you murder a pagan for "Jesus" it's perfectly
okay yet if you kill yourself, it's straight to "hell" with you.
~*~ The sun is covered in bright green puppy dogs.
Martians have taken over the US government. - Kelsey Bjarnason
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:04:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b2
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3179a2a0
PID: FM 2.02
> That's a matter of opinion. If taking George's word on anything leads
> to this sort of thing, it just makes it clear that George can not be
> believed or trusted, regardless of what he says. Sending others (John)
> through groveling motions, denigrating them, robbing them of all
> dignity, etc., is not a light matter in my book.
If John wasn't in on the alleged gag you would be right and I would agree
with everything you said. If John _was_ part of the gag, they should BOTH
be ejected from this forum. It turns out that George is a shit and John
is innocent of any wrong doing.
~*~ We were blood brothers, pals forever. He was my very best friend.
Nobody else could see him. I now know he was just pretend. - Dan Barker
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:07:11
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b3
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3179a40a
PID: FM 2.02
JH> There is no humor here. George threatened the safety of an item
JH> lent to him in good faith. There is nothing funny about a threat.
rs> Total absolute agreement here. And more, please see my post . . .
In fact, I would opine that criminal charges for making the threat even
in jest is warranted. George may have coughed-up the book after he was
threatened with legal cause and then demanded it was a joke.
-=-
It's interesting to note that the issue here was over a book -- something
that fundies and intelligent people alike hold in high reguard.
~*~ Nope. FidoNet Technical Standards require the final Origin line to
be changed EACH TIME a message is sent back into an EchoMail Forum.
- Sean Mccullough
You ARE showing your ignorance. You really think I'm going to change
my origin line every time I submit a message in the echo? Where did
you find such a standard? - Greg Waggy
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:14:16
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b5
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 74af938b
PID: FM 2.02
> Before I leave, you have to close your eyes.
> CRASH! tinkle tinkle...
> (moan)
"I am the wind!"
~*~ Got great news: been off the medication for months now. Life is
indeed good! - Jim Staal (suffers from MPD)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ric Carter
|Sub: Is anybody out there
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:15:54
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b3b6
PID: FM 2.02
>>> Can we have a Satanic rite and read from Anton LeVay before school?
sm> The few kids who CAN read are already doing that on their own time.
FR> Now THERE'S a truth.
rc> But only kids of Fundies bother to do so. The rest play videogames.
Which I find not at all ironic. Fundies are their own worse nightmare;
their own worse advertisment. Religious extremism boardering upon the deadly
is, I opine, no different than child abuse.
~*~ Good grief. Guess he's never read the bible he is thumping. - David
Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Leonard Bernier
|Sub: Matthew 24:36-37
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:36:36
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e5
REPLY: 1:225/360 571a2d3a
PID: FM 2.02
> 36) But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
> heaven, but My Father only.
And yet every death cultists demands we're all "living in the
last days." And every death cultist fails to admit that the "Jesus" myth
was supposed to have returned within the life time of his cult followers.
Try something new, Jim.
~*~ This line added to support David Rice's
counting fetish. :-) - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bill Wolff
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:41:02
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e6
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 65c136df
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Well he _could_ admit he's a Creationist liar (redundant, I know)
FR> and he _could_ agree that he is incapable of telling the truth.
FR> 'Course I still wouldn't believe him -- he's _STILL_ trying to
FR> put words into Carl Sagan's mouth.
mg> He keeps showing up here saying the same stuff. I think that he
mg> believes it to be a personal joke that we're all too stupid to
mg> understand. His real problem is that when he lied, he was shown the
mg> truth and now, he wishes that he hadn't lied. Billy had better get
on
mg> his knees and give his god a good blowjob for his transgressions.
Perhaps this forum is unique in that public lies such as his trying to make
Carl Sagan into a Creationist are so easilly debunked here and caught out.
It took only a week or so for someone to find and post the rest of the article
which Bill lied about. I think perhaps EVOLUTION is another such information-rich
forum where such lies are easilly exposed.
~*~ JESUS LIVES and he even died for the homosexual... - Nathan Dutton
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:47:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e7
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 33bb2680
PID: FM 2.02
jb> What you saw was as it was. I had nothing to do with
jb> this "joke" (which I myself do NOT consider in the least
jb> bit funny).
I didn't find it at all funny either and I'm _STILL_ willing to turn over
the archives if legal cases must come.
~*~ Or perhaps you would just prefer a moment of silence, in which those
who may be members of Santeria can sacrifice their animals in peace?"
-- Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get OVER it!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:55:54
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e8
REPLY: 1:236/20.0 317c3d08
PID: FM 2.02
ed> Remember that Hitler was a ruthless politician. He could say
ed> anything he wanted, but his actions speak louder than his rhtoric.
fr> Which is exactly true and which evidences the fact that
fr> he was a Christian. He was doing things that Christian
fr> "leaders" had done for a dozen centuries before him -- no
fr> difference. To demand that Hitler wasn't a Christian is
fr> to demand that all the Christians who came before him
fr> weren't Christians either.
ed> Hitler was not a leader in the name of Christianity.
ed> He was the leader of Nazism.
The point is that he was undeniably a Christian, not whether he was considered
a "Christian leader." The point is also undeniable that he employed the
tools that _are_ Christianity, what it was made for, and enjoyed the overwhelming
support of the majority of European Christianity at the time.
All the commentary offered decades after his death want to "explain away"
the embarrassing truth; namely that being a Christian doesn't stop someone
from being a tyranical fascist dictator. History _shows_ us that Christianity
is all those things.
ed> According to John Gunther in his book, INSIDE EUROPE,1938 ed.,:
ed> *He was born and brought up a Roman Catholic. But lost faith
ed> early and attends no religious services of any kind.
fr> That's contrary to what Hitler said and to what Christian
fr> churches were saying and doing at the time. Contrary to
FR> John Gunther, Adolf Hitler remained a Christian until his
fr> suicide.
ed> In Albert B. Gerber's book,THE LIFE OF ADOLF HITLER, states that:
ed> "His father was a conscientious Catholic; Adolf tried to break away
ed> from the Church.One day, forced to take Communion by his father, he
ed> spat out the host in protest."
It's easy to concoct elaborate lies about a man's own stated religious beliefs
long after he's dead, huh? I can't think of any better way of winning an
argument with a man if he's dead.
Why are you so set on ignoring what _HITLER_ said and want to pretend that
what others said about him negates entirely what Hitler said? We could
play dueling quotes all year yet I'm using direct quotes from Hitler and
you're using elaborate justifications many years after his death to deny
Hitler's Christianity.
Guess who wins every time.
>> In 1933 two bishops met for over an hour with Hitler. In his
>> notes of that meeting, Bishop Berning happily remarked, "because
>> of [Nazism] Christianity was being promoted, the level of
>> "In January 1934 Hitler saw twelve Evangelical leaders, and
>> after this meeting . . . they pledged 'the leaders of the
fr> He's meeting with Christian churches, talking with
fr> Christian leaders... That hardly sounds like he's fighting
fr> a religious war now does it?
ed> You don't get it, do you?
I understand that you seem to be embarrassed by the fact that Hitler was
a Christian to the point where you're in extreme denial of the very facts
that make his Christianity and acceptance among Christians rationally undeniable.
If you wish to wiggle off the hook, simply demand that Catholics aren't
Christians.
ed> Hitler made treaties with England and Russia and
ed> broke them. Hitler was unscrupulous. He had no conscience.
He was a Christian employing the tools of Christianity. Look at world history
and the death cult's involvement and then tell me you're surprised by what
Hitler did.
~*~ The event had all the marks of a work of Satan. - J. J. Hitt
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Bill Arnold
|Sub: They're all "False Christians"
|Date: 28 Apr 96 12:57:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45e9
REPLY: 1:123/44 571af208
PID: FM 2.02
> What's that Globalist Ralph Reed doing blaming racism on the burning
> of those "black" churches. I noticed there were no synagogues being
> conflagrated. This is just another attempt by the New World Order
> crowd to divide and conquer.
We'll win in the end, you know, Jim. We always do.
~*~ OK, here's your apology, Kev: go fuck yourself in your preferred
orifice with a dung-clotted serving spoon. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get the fuck OVER it!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:09:47
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45ea
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 317c02ca
PID: FM 2.02
rs> You're right in that Hitler was a Xtian, was raised in the faith, still
rs> payed lip service to it when it suited him, etc. In my book, anyone
rs> who says they're a Xtian is a Xtian . . . I'm not going to second guess
rs> anyone. But then why do I believe that Al is _mostly_ right?
I'm willing to accept that if you say you're a Christian, you are. I will
add that most of Europes' Christian clergy accepted hitler's Christianity
as well.
My major bone of contention is that in the attempt to deny the truth, people
have been using contrived and highly elaborate denials to call Hitler a
liar long after he's dead. That's a very good way to win an argument when
it's with a dead person.
rs> To Al, it's a very simple problem: if the person doesn't follow the
rs> letter of Xtian law or sways from what is held acceptible, they're not
rs> a Xtian.
But that begs the question, what's "Xian law?" Historically Hitler did
_exactly_ what Christianity is famous for. That it's contradictory to what
they claim is why Christianity is considered a cult of hypocricy.
rs> So he cites things like Hitler persecuting Xtianity in some
rs> way (foretting the history of Xtians warring on Xtians for
rs> centuries), etc.
My point exactly. Someone mentioned that more Christians have been murdered
by fellow Christians than non-Christians have been murdered by Christians.
Steve Winter would seem to underscore the possibility that this summation
of the body count is accurate.
rs> And thinks that makes his point. What it does is just show that
rs> while Hitler was a Xtian, he was not a GOOD Xtian. He was a failed
or
rs> lapsed Xtian. That doesn't automatically remove him from the ranks
of
rs> Xtians, though. The world has gobs of lapsed Xtians, people I'd still
rs> consider Xtian. But to Al, that removes him.
I would consider Hitler a Good Christian inasmuch as he followed the course
that Christianity set down for him in history to follow.
rs> I guess I believe that a person is as they were raised and still call
rs> themselves or pay lip service to. Hitler was raised Xtian and still
rs> called himself Xtian from time to time: ergo, in my book, he's a Xtian.
That's perfectly reasonable. But then neither of us are often given to
pointing at Christians and demanding they're not TRUE Christians due to
our resentment at their having different variations of ideological belief.
rs> The idea that someone who isn't a hundred percent a Xtian is not a
rs> Xtian is silly, isn't it? I mean, most Xtians I know would not be
rs> considered Xtians under that kind of stricture. If for no other reason
rs> than we can't define what percentage is acceptible as Xtian: is a
rs> person who is at least 51% in keeping with Xtian doctrine a real Xtian?
rs> How about 85%? 90%?
I won't go that far. I consider all brand names of Christianity to be the
same religion. The lunacy and rabidity of each brand name is different,
certainly.
It's funny. Non-Christians have no trouble accepting the fact that Christians
are Christians and yet so many Christians want to demand that other Christians
who hold slight variations on a theme are not.
rs> Nope, to me, it's your background and your claims. Anyone raised with
rs> Xtian indoctrination who still claims to be Xtian from time to time,
rs> for whatever reason, is a Xtian. We'll deal with how well they are
a
rs> Xtian elsewhere . . . };)
Makes perfectly good sense to me.
~*~ I'd rather go to heaven then to hell. --Kenneth Mcabee, Holysmoke 1995
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terri Nelson
|Sub: Why debate occultism?
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:12:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45eb
PID: FM 2.02
> Why debate "religion"??? Why not just
> share on "relationship" with Jesus???
Because people who believe in such occult nonsense seek to impose their
occultism upon their intellectual superiors in so many forms -- politically
is among the worse.
Have any evidence for that "Jesus" myth of yours? Any at all?
~*~ I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have
any rights and i never will. - Don Ward
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Admit the mythology _is_ mythology
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:15:35
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45ec
REPLY: 1:3819/163 317DB4C5
PID: FM 2.02
PS> Now then, if by some accident, all of the water on earth were
ps> to be in liquid form and dumped onto the surface of the earth,
ps> you'd still need two entire more hydrospheres of water to do
ps> the job the flood describes.
mb> ok if you say so I have not looked that up.
FR> Is that an admission that the mythology _is_ myth?
mb> No it is a statment that I have not looked up your statment.
It's not my statement and it doesn't require to be "looked up." All you
need to do is admit that the mythology is myth else explain where the extra
two hydrospheres of water came from and where it went. While you're at
it, explain why the oxygen in the atmosphere didn't ignite due to the release
of the latent heat which would have been created by such a "rain fall."
And if you don't understand these points, at least admit you believe in
the occult out of ignorance.
~*~ I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to
particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart from God
even further than do pagan men. - (Jim Staal, Promise Keeper)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: All Christian masters are
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:16:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45ed
REPLY: 1:3819/163 317DB4C6
PID: FM 2.02
mb> That I can agree with.
FR> Welcome to all that the Christanic death cult has to offer its sheep.
mb> Well I will have to disagree with this statment.
mb> Not all Christian leaders are that unfair.
FR> They most certainly are. You seem to be laboring under
FR> some missguided delusion that Christanic masters oppress and
FR> control you for your own good. Each time you dig into your
FR> pocket to give your death cult masters money, try remembering
FR> what is foremost in the minds of your masters.
mb> Well First the only master I have is Jesus Christ
So your masters want you to pretend.
mb> Second the money that I give to the church is not
mb> mine anyway it is Gods 10% of everything is his.
Man. Claim religion and your masters can get away with any scam. Amazing.
No one has claim to your money, Mark. Your masters are LYING to you specifically
to bilk you -- the ever ignorant, unwashed masses -- into forking over your
cash.
Bleat like a sheep and hand over your cash, Mark. Just try to remember
that what you're bending over for is one of the things the Christian cult
was created for.
~*~ Ok, you win. You proved that your god it the best there ever was at
hid n' seek. Now, trot him out here so that we can give him his reward.
- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Hitler WAS a Christian. get OVER it!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:18:58
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45ee
REPLY: 1:3819/163 317DB4C7
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Yep, you're in the same death cult that
FR> Adolf Hitler was. Feels good, huh?
mb> Well their are always some miss giuded people in anything.
FR> "Some?" Take a look at the history of the Christanic death
FR> cult, Mark. Hitler did exactly what the tool of Christianity
FR> was created for. Nearly ALL of European Christianity were
FR> signatories to statements of agreement on what Hitler was about.
mb> Have you ever noticed that the bad apples get all of the notarity.
Have you ever noticed how Christians deny the truth when it's embarrassing?
~*~ If Noah couldn't have gotten all 'those' animals in
the ark.... then how do they exist? - John Clifton
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Reading mythology and believing it
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:21:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45ef
REPLY: 1:3819/163 317DB4C8
PID: FM 2.02
fR> to exist? Aren't you capabl of understanding that doing so is
FR> no different than picking up a Wonder Woma Comic book and
FR> trying to find a reason to believe that Wonder Woman exists?
mb> not realy the same thing.
FR> Denial of the truth is pretty silly when you can't come up with
FR> some _reason why you're denying it, Mark. There must be _SOME_
FR> reason why you couldn't come up with an example on how Wonder
FR> Woman and your master's deity constructs are "not the same thing."
FR> Now why is that?
mb> Well for one thing I now who created Wonder Woman.
Interesting. And since you don't know why wrote your paper idol, you seem
to feel that a collection of anonymous forgeries hold creedence over a work
that has a known author.
Man, your masters have programmed you well.
mb> Second I don't get the same feeling reading Wonder Woman that I get
mb> reading the Bible. The Bible chalenge's my mind Wonder Woman does not.
That's not a valid excuse for not accepting the existance of Wonder Woman.
That your masters have programmed you with an emotive response to keep your
money flowing to them is obvious. You're nothing but an uneducated sheep
to your masters and they know what will keep you paying.
try explaining RATIONALLY how Wonder Woman's existance is any different
than your fictional deity construct's existance.
~*~ God loves you. He can free you from the horrible temptations of your
social disorder. - Johnny Mckinney (Talking about homosexuality)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: The Chinese din't notice
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:23:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45f0
REPLY: 1:3819/163 317DB4C9
PID: FM 2.02
FR> own extermination had the legend been true.
mb> That is realy an intersting statment.
FR> Do you admit that it's correct? Or do you wish to want to
FR> pretend that the Chinese reallty don't have a written history
FR> that goes back over 11,000 year Do you wish to pretend that
FR> they _were_ wiped out in the Glilgamesh flood on they actually
FR> survived and no one noticed?
mb> No I do not admit that it is correct.
Then you're caught in a contradiction. Either your occult paper idol is
lying or a billion Chinese really don't exist. Which is it?
~*~ Though you're wrong, I must admit that I like your spirit! The
willingness to defend unsupportable posistions is something to
be admired! - Fredric Rice (C&S forum)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get OVER it!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:24:04
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45f1
REPLY: 1:215/130 0007d9f4
PID: FM 2.02
>>>>Historians, of course, know otherwise: Hitler was a Christian.
>>>>He stated so many, many times.
>>
>>> Really? Which historians? Do you have a reference or two I can look
>>
>> Weren't the postings I offered you enough?
ef> Yes. That was sufficient. Thank you.
So do you _finally_ conceed the fact?
~*~ Airplanes are able to fly because God created the laws of nature
that allow it to fly. - Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: LAURA HODGKINS
|Sub: ending
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:25:37
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45f2
REPLY: 1:322/746 05a6d593
PID: FM 2.02
> I would just like everyone here to know that this is the last message
> I plan on posting in this area? Why? because I feel sorry for all you
> people who are so damn....pig headed, that they can't believe in
> anything they don't understand, and criticize others for their beliefs.
Interesting accusations. We're asking believers in the occult if they have
any evidence for their fictional constructs. That hardly sounds like someone
who's "pig headed."
If you don't have the evidence we're asking for, simply admit your masters
are lying to you and press onward. Don't lament your resentment at having
been shown the error of your ways. Quite simply, few of us care about your
hurt. At least I don't.
~*~ So many of the others here with higher education are atheists
that I have a tendency to discount higher education. - Jim Staal
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ken Peck
|Sub: Present your "evidence" then.
|Date: 28 Apr 96 13:27:45
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45f3
REPLY: 1:130/1017.0 8969A236
PID: FM 2.02
>> If anyone be devout and a lover of God, enjoy
>> this beautiful and radiant Feast of Feasts!
FR> Do you have any evidence for these gods of yours? Any at all?
kp> Only one God, Fredric. And yes I have a lot of evidence.
Isn't it amazing how a death cultist can count up all his deity constructs
and end up with a count of one? And isn't it also amazing how easilly a
death cultist will glibly demand he has evidence for his fictional deity
constructs and yet elect not to present it even after being asked to do
so a thousand times?
If you have evidence for the existance of your deity constructs, Ken, why
not share them with the world? Why hold onto it so selfishly? What have
we all done to you to warrant such hateful behavior?
~*~ Hence the idol worshipers don't have a purpose to live anymore,
therefore they can be declared by God deserving of capitol punishment.
- Jesse Hornbacher (speaking about justification for murder people
and rape of virgin girls if a deity say's it's okay.)
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Thanks
|Date: 27 Apr 96 18:35:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b118867
REPLY: 1:124/9005 316ff9ea
PID: FM 2.02
SA> I'd like to take this opportunity to extend my appreciation
SA> toward all those who have sent me the wondeful e-mail
SA> thanking me for giving Boy George the grand heave-ho.
I accumulated a great deal of neat stuff on Your Daily Alien yet
the bandwidth spent by my Your Daily Death Cult could have been better spent.
}:-}
sq> Boy George? Did "Our Daily Bread" finally get moldy?
It never rose.
~*~ "You were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful.
More wonderful than that of women." --2 Samuel 1:26
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Steve tries to justify rape and murder
|Date: 27 Apr 96 18:38:24
REPLY: 1:215/130 0014de3d
PID: FM 2.02
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b8c45f4
DC> You'd do better at the Mass Murderers Echo down the hall,
DC> next to the Bunnies and light crowd.
SW> It was a time of war Dan. Things happen.
Ah, yes. Declair war on innocent people so you can justify rapeing and
slaughtering them. Christian Family Values.
~*~ Point the finger slow to understand.
Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand. - METALLICA
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Invisible tanks!
|Date: 27 Apr 96 18:42:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b118869
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6542cca9
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Does this list consist of a lot of right-wing extremist
FR> lunatics who LIE about how mysterious invisible tanks drive
FR> over invisible mysterious people?
jjjjjjjh> Don't tell him about the Inviso-Tanks!
jjjjjjjh> They're our SECRET weapon!
Key-rap! It's too late! I already let the cat out of the bag! Now I suppose
he's running to go tell his lunatic friend Linda Thompson -- looking over
his back for the Men In Black, of course, who are chasing after him to stop
him.
~*~ "Jews are only good for one thing, bringing in as a sacrifice
unto the Lord." - Pat Robertson.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 27 Apr 96 18:44:06
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b11886a
PID: FM 2.02
>> Would a all-powerful and loving god allow this to happen?
cb> silly atheist. god moves in mysterious ways. man
cb> cannot judge god or discern his motives. [snicker]
All we really know for sure is that we can't use pepper.
~*~ I've noticed the distinct lack of civility in here. - Rick Mcfarlane
So what did you expect, a fucking door prize? - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: For Marilyn B.
|Date: 27 Apr 96 18:48:50
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b11886c
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 895E43E0
PID: FM 2.02
MB> I'll never see it, because I've got him twitted and have no
MB> intention of untwitting him.
> If you refuse to talk to me, then I respectfully
> request you stop talking *about* me.
Your request is denied. In fact, I think I'll log into #holysmoke and talk
about you now.
~*~ A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearanging their prejudices. - David Rice, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS a Christian. Get OVER it!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:14:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b378
PID: FM 2.02
> Sigh. l e t ' s t r y t o s l o w d o w n a n d u n d e r
> stand what is being presented here. As far as I am concerned, God
> has never killed
It's impossible for fictional mental constructs to kill anyone. In actual
fact cultists use their fictional constructs to justify their rape, torture,
and murder of innocent people and _they_ claim their fictional constructs
authorized it:
Numbers 31:17-18
"Now therefore kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who hath known man by
lying with him. But all the women children, that
have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive
for yourselves."
How's _that_ for the evil that you pretend to worship?
~*~ You are comparing assholes and oranges. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Adolph Hitler
|Sub: Vermin!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:15:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b379
REPLY: 1:123/319 570efe28
PID: FM 2.02
ah> The Jew is like a virus: once it infects a nation, the host dies.
Which Jew, specifically?
~*~ "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not
screaming in terror like his passengers." (nicked from Jim Harkins)
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Unabomber / Unibomber
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:16:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b37a
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 895F0E2D
PID: FM 2.02
Elliott Finesse
Lee Woofenden
EF> Hey, come to think about it, that UniBomber dude is one sincere mother
dc> The funny thing about this is that my local newspaper spelled the
dc> name of the bomber: "Unabomber"! It occurred both in the title
dc> of the article as well as the body.
Time Magazine spelled it Unabomb through their entire magazine
issue.
~*~ People bitch about "how bad our kids are today." Bullshit! Look at
the PARENTS! The parents are failing their kids as well, not just
the kids failing their parents. - David Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get OVER it!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:23:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b37b
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 655829fb
PID: FM 2.02
ef>> There WAS no extermination of the mentally ill, and
ef>> no steralization going on within _Nazi Germany_ for
ef>> "many years" prior to the concordat, simply because.....
ef>> There WAS NO NAZI GERMANY PRIOR TO 1933.
FR> Amazing. You don't happen to believe that the Jewish Holocaust
FR> didn't happen either, do you?
mg> I am not well read on Hitler and his personal views. However, it would
mg> be difficult to convince me that Hitler did more than give lip service
mg> to xtianity.
I make no attempt to convince you. In any event Christianity is nothing
more than a tool -- a tool which Hitler used in keeping with its historic
use. That Christian churches often met with and plotted with Hitler isn't
debated (so far as I know) by individuals who would like to pretend Hitler
wasn't a Christian. Whether Hitler himself believed in the Christian mythologies
is something only he could answer. Since he's dead we have to go on what
he said when he was alive.
As for this claim above that there was no extermination project of the mentally
ill or the politically unsavory, that's an outrageous denial of the historic
records. Visit damn near any Holocaust museum or read any book about it
or review any PBS special on it and you'll be given the history of how the
policies for the exterminations began with the mentally insane.
~*~ Rest asured that I __will__ hack and chop by way through as many
innocents as it takes to restore my religions' good name! - Fred Rice
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: ryan shaw
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:24:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b37c
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 1714e7c2
PID: FM 2.02
CB> silly atheist. god moves in mysterious ways. man cannot judge god
CB> or discern his motives. [snicker]
rs> In that case, god's a reall ass in my
rs> not so humble opinion. A real ass.
Good thing for us that it doesn't exist, huh?
~*~ McCullough's Law: anyone under the control of an authority tends to
be/become inimical to anyone NOT under control of the same authority.
---
* Origin: There are no Christians in foxholes (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jerry Gilbreath
|Sub: Science vs. Ignorance
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:26:18
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b37d
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316F39B7
PID: FM 2.02
JG> The Genesis account states that the mountains were covered with
JG> water. Sediment settles out of water.
DC> Explain the limestone on top of Mt Everest.
jg> Actually, I was waiting for a reply from the evolutionists on this.
It's a geology question, you idiot, not biology!
And wasn't the process explained to you in enough detail for even you to
understand it?
~*~ You fundis amuse me, spending all your time trying to coerce
nonbelievers into accepting the rules for living that you so
hypothetically disregard in your personal lives. - Larry Sites
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Science vs. Occultism
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:27:36
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b37e
REPLY: 1:130/113.2 316F39B7
PID: FM 2.02
JG> The Genesis account states that the mountains were covered with
JG> water. Sediment settles out of water.
DC> Explain the limestone on top of Mt Everest.
jg> Actually, I was waiting for a reply from the evolutionists on this.
How's _THAT_ for absurdity? Recieve a geology question and then sit back
and wait for a biologist to answer it. "Hello? McFly? Anybody
in there?"
~*~ Dr. Goldberg, I suspect that Fundie Implosive Syndrome is imminent,
and
there is nothing we can do but try our best to make the patient as
uncomfortable as possible while the disease takes its course. - jonny vee
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LACK OF EVIDENCE
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:35:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b37f
REPLY: 1:116/19 03A61258
PID: FM 2.02
FR> What's interesting is that you elected to ignore all the
fr> direct quotes from Adolf Hitler that I posted while still
fr> trying to insist that it's some kind of Satanic conspiracy
fr> to prove that Hitler was a Christian. You elected not to
FR> comment on the S.S. requirement of being a Christian and all the
fr> signatories by official Christian churches which stated
fr> agreement with Hitler's plans.
FR> Amazing.
as> We could produce quotes aplenty about how much Hitler didn't
as> want war but wanted only enough territory to have a lasting
as> peace, and how he would honor the accord with Chamberlin.
as> HE's a known liar, Fred. It is IRRELVANT.
Goat grief. Is the embarrassment of the fact that Hitler was a Christian
so overpowering that elaborate denials of the truth must be concocted and
then backed-up with glib pronouncements of, "well, he lied?"
And then to press onward to glibly cast the truth aside with a "It is irrelvant"
is the height of dishonesty! The fact is that Hitler employed the tools
of Christianity as it was hisorically used and as it is used in contemporary
times. Spock's axiom holds: A difference which makes no difference is
no difference.
Now here you are argueing about a dead man about his Christianity. That's
an easy way to win when the dead person can't restate his Christianity and
you're unwilling to accept the historic record.
Hitler was a Christian. He said so. The Christian churches said so. It's
time to get over it.
~*~ It amazes me that you fundies think that humans need a
reason to be human. We _are_ human... - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Hitler was a Christian. Get OVER it!
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:40:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b380
REPLY: 1:116/19 03A61924
PID: FM 2.02
ef> There WAS no extermination of the mentally ill, and
ef> no steralization going on within _Nazi Germany_ for
ef> "many years" prior to the concordat, simply because.....
ef> There WAS NO NAZI GERMANY PRIOR TO 1933.
FR> Amazing. You don't happen to believe that the Jewish
FR> Holocaust didn't happen either, do you?
as> Of course not. Elliott has shown himself an interesting and
as> well-researched debater on the nontheist side.
It is traditional for Holocaust deniers to also demand that the extermination
of the mentally ill and the politically unsavory didn't happen. Hitler's
propaganda machine often justified their extermination program of the mentally
ill by depicting them acting crazy -- usually with dedicated health-care
workers "trying their best to help them." And he justified the extermination
as in keeping with the Christian god's will for a happy, productive life
-- something his machine said they couldn't have.
Since the denial of the truth is so profound in this case, I must conclude
that Elliott is trying to foister the extermination program onto the political
regieme which existed prior to 1933. He appears to be trying to demand
that someone else was responsible.
~*~ We have far too many lawyers in the United States for anything
approaching justice to ever be served. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Bill Arnold
|Sub: The Apocalypse
|Date: 28 Apr 96 08:46:35
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3b87b381
REPLY: 1:123/318 57116564
PID: FM 2.02
> Real Christians "HATE" evil!
And they use that excuse to label innocent people as "evil" so they can
rape, torture, and murder them.
Yes. We know.
~*~ Once more: your question is stupid, and I will not answer it.
- Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: That's mighty atheist of you! (1:102/890)
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:02:00
EID:33ea 209a3840
MSGID: 1:116/19 0317FF54
AS> Yeah. There were Zionists in the thirties, and before that, really.
MM> A lot before that, really. Ever since the philosopher Moses Mendelsohn
MM> in the 18th century perceived national assimilation as a danger to
MM> Jewish religious culture has Zionism existed as a cultural movement.
MM> Only when Theodore Herzl in 1897 called the 1st World Zionist Congress
MM> in Basel did it become political; to solve antisemitism by
MM> resettlement of World Jewry in an national homeland.
Yes, I knew the movement was older, but I had no idea how older...
MM> Wonder what would have happened if the WZ Congress had accepted the
MM> Brithish offer of Uganda in 1905...
It would have been interesting, but probably some Jewish extremists would
be waging war on those who live in Palestine, to get their homeland. And
of course, though sparser, the misplaced Ugandan natives might have been
as resentful then as the Palestinians were then. One wonders...Germany had
quite strong colonial powers for a while, and during World War 1 their
general made some brillant moves in Africa and treated the natives as
"fellow Africans" not natives. Would Hitler have decided to revive and
expand their colonial interests in Africa to get at Uganda as the "Jewish
State". Given the blitzkreig, the holocaust STIL might have happened.
... "Knowledge is ruin to my young men." -- Adolph Hitler (1889-1945) Germ
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:05:00
EID:f0fa 209a38a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0318036E
AS> Huh? Is that who he's quoting all the time? AUSTIN only has one
AS> newspaper? Heck, Nashville has two, and surely we aren't as big as
AS> Austin.
SA> Sometimes it has to do with demand. Madison has two newspapers
SA> by demand, but they are owned by the same corporation which allows the
SA> much smaller afternoon paper to survive.
That's really the situation in Nashville. Both papers come from the same
large building...the morning one is liberal, the evening one is
conservative. The evening one doesn't run a Sunday edition, but you can
get instead one of the liberal one...
SA> Many cities these days are going to one newspaper as that is all
SA> that can be reasonably supported in this age of high tech...who
SA> actually has time (or the 6th grade education) to sit and read the
SA> paper when there is news on TV that is predigested for easy intake?
;(
Maybe McLuhan was right after all...more's the pity.
... He who opens a school door, closes a prison - Victor Hugo
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Question 67 & 68
|Date: 26 Apr 96 08:08:00
EID:6a5e 209a4100
MSGID: 1:116/19 03180774
EF> From your POV: was it necessary for the apostles to witness the
EF> resurrection to do what the did following JC's death?
Granting in general the account in Acts(excluding the miraculous...I
understand that)? Yes. They were either liars, or lunatics, or actually
saw it. If they were all liars, why did one of them not break, under the
torture...say, the flogging the Sanhedrin gave them (and they were under
threat of death before that, until Gamaliel calmed them down), not to
mention the imprisonments, the death of Stephen and James, etc. How many
con men die willingly for their own con? We are not talking simple-minded
religious belief, such as Cromwell, or Joan of Arc had...or perhaps as
even Paul had. They claimed to see a specific event, Jesus' Resurrection,
and they all agreed to it and preached that. Were they all lunatics? This
is a singular lunacy that they all shared. You can work variations...Peter
was a lunatic and the rest humored him...but that just means, basically,
that one was a lunatic and the rest lied. Still same objection.
Or...they told the truth.
... When men lack a sense of awe, there will be disaster. -- Lau Tzu
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: John Steinson
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Apr 96 08:07:00
EID:84ee 209a40e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03181200
AS> Good, Elliot. Many nontheists never catch onto that simple distincition.
JS> Apparently it can't be too simple. I've seen theists constantly
JS> missing the point on this subject.
JS> My wife may know what I will do in the future.
JS> My wife knows that I will go to Oscar's Deli tomorrow morning.
JS> Has my life been predtermined?
JS> Easy way to find out. I will ask my wife...
JS> Me: "Where am I going tomorrow morning?"
JS> Mrs: "Your going to Oscar's, dear."
JS> What are my options?
JS> Has my life been predetermined? Am I doomed to follow a laid out
JS> path? Have I lost (or never had) my freewill????
JS> Me: "No..think I'll go to Burger King instead."
JS> Mrs: "Ok, dear."
JS> My freewill has been confirmed.
JS> What if.....
JS> Me: "Where am I going tomorrow morning?"
JS> God: "You're going to Oscar's Deli"
JS> What are my options?
It seems rather irrelevant to this, doesn't it? God doesn't speak directly
to you...or if He DOES, we would like to hear some more details.
BTW, I already sent a message about this to you about this, when you used
this analogy before. Did you not get it?
... You may now log into life. Password:
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Holocaust Hoax
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:05:00
EID:ee8b 209a48a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03181494
JH> A recent article in Scientific American on aerial and satellite
JH> survailence has a photograph of Auchswitz taken from a aircraft
JH> that was observing a nearby rubber plant.
JH> When the photo was taken the camp was being rapidly dismantled
JH> (the Russians were only days away). But what impressed me about
JH> this photo was the sheer size of the complex (something no
JH> Holocaust documentary has suceeded in doing). Auchswitz was
JH> designed to house 250,000 inmates. It was a fucking huge complex.
JH> Based on the evidence of that photo alone, there's little question
JH> that millions could have died there. It was certainly large enough
JH> for that type of wholesale slaughter.
I got a book on the Holocaust at the library, among others. I'm probably
going to read that near to last, since I'm sure it will not be a pleasant
read. But it should be good ammunition for Grigor-Scott and his ilk.
... The light at the end of the tunnel is a train heading your way.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: WE'VE BEEN HAD!
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:08:00
EID:623a 209a4900
MSGID: 1:116/19 03181714
JH>> I'm certainly glad to know that John's property is secure,
JH>> but my opinion of george hasn't risen one iota.
AS> Mine has...by about two inches.
JH> Thank you.
JH> I've always wondered how big an iota was.
Does a surgeon raise an aorta one iota?
... No one could pin anything on Lady Godiva.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: I KNEW THAT
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:02:00
EID:6412 209a4840
MSGID: 1:116/19 031819F8
AS> We need reminding sometimes that things like the Scopes trial
AS> is more a product of American fundamentalism than current
AS> Christian thinking as a whole.
JH> I thought it was a product of Tennessee.
True. So was the KKK, for our sins.
On the plus side, Jack Daniels comes from here....
... "Let's get out of here Mulder, as fast as we can!" - Dana Scully
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 26 Apr 96 04:08:00
EID:dfc5 209a2100
MSGID: 1:116/19 03181D9A
AS> That is EXACTLY the way I feel about the constants of the
AS> universe...falling time and time again...into ONLY those ranges that
AS> would allow intelligent life to exist.
RH> False logic, Al. First you must show that the constants COULD have
RH> other values.
(Gentle smile.) No. Because if you say that the constants cannot have any
other values, then you are basically saying that the capacity for
intelligent life is built into the universe...which is the same thing as
saying that the universe was designed to create intelligent life. Besides,
are you saying that there are larger, metalaws that govern how the
constants are selected? Otherwise, there is nothing to compel them.
AS> Hmmmm. I personally know of at least one woman who claims, after her
AS> father died, that she was under a car working on it, and was
AS> reaching for
AS> a wrench, when it was handed to her, and she saw two shoes. She
AS> rolled out from under the car, and there was her father. Then of
AS> course, he disappeared. Grief causing hallucination? Very likely.
RH> And you should know that anecdotal evidence is worthless.
No; although you are very right that it is not scientific evidence, per
se. But that doesn't make it valueless, anymore than the witnessing of a
meteorite, before it was acknowledged that such falling stars actually
where rocks from the sky, made the event invalid.
AS> Yet, oddly enough,
AS> that woman was one of the most level-headed and practical people I
RH> Just the sort to go bonkers under such stress.
And if I said the opposite? That she was very imaginative and
impractical? Wouldn't you say just the same, that she was the type to
witness such? Heads you win, tails you lose...I don't necessarily hold
that she really DID see her father. But I was reading a survey that said
a
good 36 per cent of people have had a religious or mystical experience.
I
was reading where Toynbee, the noted historian, had several experiences
where he felt he witnessed things happening in the far past, and makes it
clear that he thinks it was more than the imagination of a historian, but
an actual occurence. I think the universe is a far stranger thing than we
know.
AS> knew...institues for "psychical research" are CRAMMED with such
AS> stories, over and over again. And no, I'm not arguing that all or any
AS> of them are true, just that there is abundent evidence to at least
AS> speculate that the
RH> Truth in numbers?
No; but so common an experience might deserve to be explained. It very
possibly might be hallucinations caused by stress and the relating of
stories; and it might be something that is not dreamt of in our
philosophy, Horatio.
RH> Shall we vote on the gravitational constant? I think it is too
RH> high, myself...
Me, too...I can't wait to try out the honeymoon suite in the
Hilton-in-Orbit. But similarly, if the supernatural DOES exist, all
our closing our eyes to it does not alter it one whit, no matter how we
"vote" that such experiences do not matter, are hallucinations, etc.
AS> Do you not do things for people you love that you would not do for
AS> others?
RH> I thought the Jews WERE his favorite people.
They are; but I'm sure Mary holds a special spot in Jesus' heart, simply
because of her nurturing him.
AS> didn't love the people in Auchswitz, but if He does it for Auchswitz,
AS> He needs to do it for Dauchau, the Bosnian rape camps, etc. until
AS> every stubbed toe is stopped from hurting and we get back into that
AS> free will gig again. Besides, Jesus was in some ways showing the
RH> Well, it WOULD have been greatly appreciated.
The Jews are on the train to Auchwitz, and suddenly the train reappears
in
Kansas on a track. Assume (which I doubt) that the Jews on there are
believed. Of course they would be relieved. But imagine how the rest of
mankind would feel. Something---they know not what, for sure---has
snatched a whole carful of people from one part of Earth to another.
Imagine the fright many people would feel. Remember how some committed
suicide under Orson Welles' WAR OF THE WORLDS broadcast? Then imagine how
Man would feel, manipulated by mysterious forces that he could neither
control nor avert. Imagine the impact on one's sense of science...knowing
that the world was at the mercy of immense forces that they could not
immediately study. Imagine the impact on philosophy, politics, and
society, when it sinks in that there are mysterious forces that can toy
with us at will; imagine the feeling of being pets, or lab rats, toyed
with by titanic forces beyond our stopping or imagining. And of course,
EVERY religion would claim it was a sign from THEIR God.
Imagine the death of everything that makes Man...man. Perhaps the
kindest thing God is not to make Himself immediately apparent.
AS> Only because, if the Christian doctrines are right, it will mean all
AS> deaths can be temporary...with but a word.
RH> And of course the sacrifice of the rest of your life to goals
RH> other than your own. Odd how you value free will so much, then demand
RH> it as the first sacrifice to salvation.
On the contrary; yes, there are rules to be followed...but is a tennis
player or a chess player denied individual style because he follows some
rules? Or an artist because he follows the rules of perspective? It merely
points you in a direction; you have to decide the best way to proceed
there. And responses have been as different as Mother Teresa and Albert
Schweitzer's helping the poor in far-odd places, to Handel's MESSIAH,
to Milton's PARADISE LOST, to Da Vinci's the LAST SUPPER.
... Copenhagenists don't do it unless somebody's watching.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 26 Apr 96 00:05:00
EID:1689 209a00a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0318209C
AS> eras. Schliemann probably destroyed much of the layer about the real
AS> Troy to reach a deeper level where there was a treasure which he
AS> called "Priam's Treasure", but had nothing to do with Priam, being
AS> over a thousand years older. Sheliemann was a con man and a liar in
AS> some things, but he had faith in Troy. He still discovered it...the
AS> different Troys were different
AS> in TIME, not in location.
RH> You know, one of the reasons I got tossed off of Cult_Watch was
RH> arguing over TRoy. The moderator thought Schliemann was a great and
RH> reputable scientist who had found unmistakable evidence for the Flood.
ROFL!!!!!! Schliemann never told a story the same way twice.
RH> That's only ONE of the reasons....
Hey, I might have gotten kicked off THAT echo, myself, with thinking like
that...
... Noah didn't do too much fishing with only 2 worms to use for bait
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: EVIL
|Date: 26 Apr 96 01:06:00
EID:94dd 209a08c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0318240C
AS> (Gentle smile.) But if they are the products of their genetics and
AS> their enviorment, they cannot be deterred. Determent implies
AS> judgement, which in turn implies an essential "I" that DECIDES. Which
AS> is the essense of free will.
RH>
RH> Tsk. You really need to read some Skinner, Al. Human behavior can be
RH> determined by outside influences. We're just too "Christian" to do
RH> it.
Sure. (I've read a little Skinner but it's been years...one book of
nonfiction, and that book about his new "utopia") For a time. I'm not so
sanguine as Skinner that such a society would LAST. If we are the product
of genetics and our enviorment, and since genetics changes only very
slowly, why do we have so many reformers. Why is our enviorment molding
us
to change our enviorment? Seems like if that were all there were, we would
strive for the status quo.
AS> Again, deterrence infers that one can make a judgement on something
AS> that is not directly happening to one...and judgement implies choice,
AS> and with it, free will.
RH> Wrong. Computers can do it easily. They don't even have to be
RH> specially programmed for it.
But computers under the same stimuli will react the same way every time.
Humans don't; they make a judgement.
AS> Execute them, then. If they have no free will, and are merely the
AS> products
AS> of their enviorment and their genetics, you cannot guarentee that
AS> changing
AS> the enviorment to prison will reform them...indeed, oftentimes going
AS> to prison breeds resentment and teaches them more crooked skills, not
AS> less. The execution of prisoners for rape, murder, etc. makes perfect
AS> sense...unless we grant them the free will to possibly change.
RH> Looked at the repeat offender rate lately? Jail does not rehabilitate
RH> but execution definately prevents repeating!
Yes. That's what I said above (see above, "oftentimes going to prison
breeds resentment and teaches them more crooked skills, not less"). Unless
we are granting prisoners the free will to choose not to be criminals, and
feel that it is MORE precious than the statistics that dictate most will
be reapeat offenders, it makes absolutely no sense. Unless, deep down, we
feel that each of us has a real choice.
AS> escalate, etc. I did it because I felt, in a very real sense, that
AS> such was wrong, that grown men beating up each other was silly, etc.
AS> (The gay guy was pretty little, the other guy a lot bigger, but no
AS> giant.)
RH> Silly, so you would do it too? To the other guy..
I didn't swing at him; I would have only reacted back in self-defense or
the defense of that guy. But I was ready to do so if I had to.
RH> Do you agree that being gay is not a matter of choice? Do you agree
RH> that it cannot be a sin? Do you agree that the bible says it IS?
(a) The bulk of the evidence seems to argue that way. BEING gay? Yes.
Of course, homosexual acts can be sinful, just as heterosexual acts can
be. Unsure, in all honesty. Despite the strong prohibitions, "it is
an
abomination" Paul talks to a congregation about how they used to be
"adulterers, and homosexuals, and thieves," etc. but now all brothers and
sisters in Christ. Now. If those who "used to be" homosexuals...if being
gay is not a matter of choice...then they were still gay in the sense that
they were more turned on by their own sex than another, correct? Yet Paul
considered them part of the body of Christ. I DO believe there is no sin
beyond God's grace. I also am VERY glad, quite frankly, for a verse that
tells me to "judge NOTHING" before the time when the great Judge will
judge all. I am sure of one thing; if homosexuality is a sin, the hatred
and spite of the gay-bashers is a greater one. And I do believe that W.H.
Auden, a great poet, but in HIS words, not mine, "a flaming faggot", was
also a great Christian.
... Too many people confuse free speech with loose talk.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: GENOCIDAL PROPHET
|Date: 26 Apr 96 02:00:00
EID:d58f 209a1000
MSGID: 1:116/19 031826E6
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> Not at one shot, no. I know a guy who is, at last report, currently
PS> working on filling a gallon jar.
AS> I REALLY didn't need to know that...
RH> ROFL! Is he doing it alone?
Ask Preston. I gave...NOT at the office.
... The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.-H.P. Lovecraft
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 26 Apr 96 02:03:00
EID:93a8 209a1060
MSGID: 1:116/19 03182AA6
AS> we stay the same. As for the latter...nothing really, as long as you
AS> are not forced to be that way...i.e.,have a way to get out of that
AS> perfect existence if you so choose to, and thus would not be a puppet.
AS> But not be dumb enough to DO it, which unfortunately, according to the
AS> Eden story, we were...
RH>
RH> Uh..Al...Who determined how intelligent we were to be? Before the
RH> apple we had no idea of good and evil, so how could we be blamed for
RH> making a bad choice?
If you take a simplistic view of it (and remember I look at it more as a
metaphor or parable anyway), perhaps. But I don't think the knowledge of
good and evil meant moral discrimination, which I think would be the
property of any intelligent being. I think it meant the attitude that WE
know better than the Creator what is good or bad, that we can make
judgements better than the great Judge. An example; a kid might disobey
the rules of his class, and know he is doing wrong, but wants to sneak
away with it anyway, because he likes the result so much. He does it of
his own free will, but he knows he's trespassing against the rules. He
might be caught and punished; and he knows that is a possible consequence
and accepts it.
But there is another kid, who says loudly that he thinks the rules are
STUPID and that HE knows better than the teacher what's going on, and he's
going to disobey her because he has no respect for her or her "stupid
rules". He's equally using his free will.
But which is the teacher going to punish more, given the attitude?
The kid who trespasses the rules and knows he's doing wrong...or the kid
who thinks he's smarter than the teacher, and will do things HIS way?
That's what I think the Knowledge of Good and Evil is, and what the
fruit is a metaphor for; now; have you heard of memes? The idea is that
ideas are spread, similarly to genes in genetics, but much more swiftly.
I
think THAT idea is such a meme, and one that did not occur to us hitherto.
But an idea does not die, but keeps spreading. Knowledge once expressed,
even false one, doesn't die. It is in THAT way we have been infected with
"original sin", and one reason I think babies and those under mental
handicaps are saved...since they are not able to receive such an idea.
... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: WARTS
|Date: 26 Apr 96 02:09:00
EID:2310 209a1120
MSGID: 1:116/19 03182E52
AS>AS>KW> I dunno, Al, I never heard of a wart with a penis hanging off
it
AS>before.
AS>AS> Funny, sounds like a good description of half the ex-husbands
AS>AS> described in this echo...
AS>KW> Al, a wart is a non-malignant growth.
AS> I said it was a GOOD description. I didn't say it was PERFECT...
KW> Ah, but Al, their malignancy is what they have in common.
And VERY common it is, indeed...
... I'm not really as sound as I stupid!? Or something...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: MARILYN
|Date: 26 Apr 96 02:01:00
EID:167a 209a1020
MSGID: 1:116/19 03183172
AS> MB> Why should I? He's my poster boy of what is wrong with the dogmatic
AS> MB> approach. If anybody is sitting on any fences, he serves a purpose,
AS> MB> whether he likes the purpose he serves or not.
AS>MH> My my my ... I do stick in her craw, don't I? :/
AS> Do you ALWAYS have this winning way with women, Mike?
KW> Every time I start to feel sorry for Mike, He just has to open his
KW> mouth and say something like this.
Well, it seems to be spreading. I wondered how you and Elliot could not
get along...but now Elliot is yelling at Mike for saying "ok" and "please
do".
... Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: APOLOGY
|Date: 26 Apr 96 03:09:00
EID:2376 209a1920
MSGID: 1:116/19 031833CA
DM> Using, as usual, far too many words for too few ideas, Al
DM> Schroeder said "APOLOGY" to Don Martin, adding:
Thank you. Just call me Polonius.
AS> Or the inattention of the reader, Don.
AS> Look, I can only surmise you haven't followed this thread...and who
AS> can blame you? So let me apprise you of a few facts.
DM> I am aware of these essential facts.
Then why--?
AS> get past HIS twit filter. I see no hypocrisy, no double standard in
AS> admitting the obvious. If Michael wants to apologize to Marilyn for
AS> certain past statements, I think it would be a good thing. But
AS> Marilyn has, of her own volition, closed that door. I have
AS> criticized many believers here, from Jim Germ-whatever for his
AS> seeming condoning of the abuse of women to Don Ward's stealing
AS> shareware (and it was I who got him to register the stupid thing) to
AS> Mark Craig's obvious bigotry to Mike himself for his letter to Lynda
AS> when she said she no longer wanted to be known under the label
AS> "Christian". I think my record is pretty good here on that score. Nor
AS> do I bow to ANYBODY in my respect for Marilyn's intelligence or
AS> integrity. This wasn't up to your usual standards, Don, so I'm
AS> assuming you were not cognizant of the above facts.
DM> I am sufficiently cognizant of the reflection upon
DM> Marilyn's character and the patronizing tone of:
AS> Try Marilyn. Of course, she won't READ it, but she wants one
AS> anyway...
DM> to despise it. What you would hate to think is your concern.
No; that was not patronizing. Again, I yield to no one in my respect for
Marilyn's intelligence and her ability to see the point. Which may be one
reason she has not voiced any offense.
However, I CAN be patronizing to SOME:
Examples might be:
Exactly HOW do you propose Mike apologize to Marilyn if she has him
twitted, Don? Passenger pigeon? Semaphore flags? Hire a mime to act out
a
charade in front of her? DO tell us, Don.
Or:
See Mike.
See Mike say something that Marilyn hates.
See Marilyn twit Mike so she cannot read anything he writes.
See Mike try to apologize.
Apologize, Mike, Apologize.
See Marilyn seethe in anger and not see the apology.
See Mike see that she cannot see the apology.
See Mike not apologize further, because it can do no good.
See Don get outraged when the obvious is pointed out to him.
Or:
I do not like Mike, Al-I-am.
I will twit him, since I can.
Twit him? Twit him?
Twit him, Marilyn?
But then you will never see him say
"Sorry" to you....someday.
SHUT UP, SHUT UP, Al-I-am!
Said Don with some elan,
How dare you patronizing be,
Said Don, with misplaced chivalry.
Al-I-Am sighed and shrugged
And gave Marilyn a hug,
And said, "Why is it wrong to say
That those who are, another day,
twitted when they apologize
Cannot be seen by Marilyn's eyes?
Will you eat green crow and Ham?"
At Don laughed Al-I-am.
Now, those WOULD be patronizing. Lucky I didn't say that.
And I certainly would never say them to MARILYN, whom I have the
greatest respect and approval, and whose intelligence I would never
underrate, nor would I try to deliberately hurt...ever. I MIGHT say that
to someone whom I explained the salient facts...which he says he already
knows...yet still thinks an insult is intended, when I was merely
stating the obvious.
BTW...I'm pleased you have no regard for my opinion of you. Because it
has dropped like a stock in 1929.
... I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: You Can Get Help
|Date: 26 Apr 96 04:04:00
EID:1c9d 209a2080
MSGID: 1:116/19 031836D6
KW> I understand that the most successful treatment to date is no longer
KW> considered to be splitting open the penis and implanting silicon rods
KW> (the never ending hard-on) or inflatable bladders (don't even think
KW> about a blow out) with a pump. It seems that now the 'in' treatment
is
KW> to inject drugs directly into the penis. The major drawback to this
KW> technique (other than, of course, the patients tendency to take one
KW> look at the needle, grab his penis, and run screaming out the door)
is
KW> that a slight miscalibration of the dosage can cause a painful
KW> condition where it just keeps swelling. Emergency dept. crews try not
KW> to let it show how amusing this phenomena is.
KW> Okay, guys, you can unclench now. I'm finished. ;)
Thank you for that uplifting moment.
I'd ask how you know so much about it, but I'm afraid to ask...
... Onward and backward! We must look busy.
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SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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PATH: 116/19 270/101 218/801
|From: Joe Shedlock
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Vampire Literature
|Date: 26 Apr 96 14:41:15
EID:af3f 209a7520
MSGID: 1:116/19 0326D588
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Joe Shedlock on 04-25-96 07:07 <=-
AS> Varney the Vampire. Lord Ruthven in Dr. Polidori's tale...the same
AS> dare that produced Mary Shelley's FRANKENSTEIN. "Camilla" by LeFanu,
AS> which really developed the vampirism-for-lust thing, but did it for
AS> LESBIAN lust, and came out a few years before Stoker. It was never
AS> stated out-and-out explicitedly, but it is hinted at rather broadly.
AS> There are a few others. Lord Ruthven in "The Vampyre" is from the
AS> early decades of the 19th century,
Very interesting. You are better read in your vampire literature
than I am.
JS> Kael.) BTW, in the film version of "Interview" Anne Rice herself is
JS> on camera for a several minute "preface" and she repeats several times
JS> that "the story is not just about vampires, it's about us."
AS> The best horror stories are also about us.
Yes, but in what way? I didn't get much from these "other meanings"
in Rice, so would have to re-read her for that. The "Interview"
movie seemed pretty faithful to the book in terms of the story.
AS> Me either. I'm not into pain, either giving or receiving it. I did
AS> read STORY OF O, though.
You *naughty* boy!
... This tagline is made just for Al Schroeder
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Joe Shedlock
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Memnoch & Mensa
|Date: 26 Apr 96 14:41:16
EID:7bb9 209a7520
MSGID: 1:116/19 0326DA38
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Joe Shedlock on 04-22-96 06:54 <=-
JS> ago. Remember John Stuart Mill?
JB>
JB> Yes, I remember. Haven't been on Mensa for a while. There were only
2
JB> boards carrying it in town. One merged into an ISP with no more FIDO
JB> and the other is run by someone I don't care to deal with.
Al Schroeder and I are fortunate to live in Nashville, where there are
over 200 boards in the Nashville calling area, and half or so are
Fido boards. (At least that is one good thing about Nashville.)
There are also female sysops. Many sysops are pretty friendly here
and will add almost any echo upon request.
JB> ! Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
Here are the Summerville boards I found in the Fido Nodelist, in
case you don't have one handy (apologies if you know all this already):
,6,Tri-County_Computers_BBS,Summerville_SC,David_Farr,1-803-821-9030,
,18,Pat's_Place_Node_1,Summerville_SC,Patrick_Driscoll,1-803-821-8689,
,19,Pat's_Place_(Node_2),Summerville_SC,Patrick_Driscoll,1-803-851-1106,
,116,The_Operating_Room,Summerville_SC,Rich_Cooper,1-803-851-0391,
,447,The_Misadventure_BBS,Summerville_SC,Eddie_Luffman,1-803-821-4447,
,1702,Alternate_Reality_BBS,Summerville_SC,Dale_A_Sivright,1-803-875-0498,
,1188,Richie's_Place_BBS,Summerville_SC,Richard_Watkins,1-803-875-1188,
JS> Since then, I've come to no good, as I've become the moderator of
JS> a local religion and spirituality discussion echo. Al is an active
JS> participant there, and I've followed him here mostly out of
JS> curiosity.
JB>
JB> You do have your work cut out for you, don't you?
Haha. So far, most of the troublemaker types have stayed out
of the echo.
JB> Stick around,
JB> jump in anywhere. Nice to see your name in a header again.
Thanks. It is nice to "see" you again too.
... This tagline is made just for Judith Bandsma
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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PATH: 116/19 270/101 218/801
|From: Joe Shedlock
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: On "Memnoch"
|Date: 26 Apr 96 14:41:18
EID:69d3 209a7520
MSGID: 1:116/19 0326DDE4
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Joe Shedlock on 04-22-96 06:58 <=-
-=> Quoting Joe Shedlock to Al Schroeder <=-
JS> I bought a copy of "Memnoch." Read it and it has been sitting around
JS> gathering dust since. I guess I didn't find it as interesting as
JS> Judith did. I was looking for a vampire adventure story, and didn't
JB>
JB> At first I wondered what was going on. I enjoy the 'Vampire' series,
JB> just for some light entertainment...nothing I have to think too much
JB> about.
The stories must "work" as vampire adventure stories, or else the books
wouldn't have sold so well. But do you have any thoughts about the
Rice vampire stories as metaphors for dysfunctional families, substance
abuse, homoerotic love, etc.? What about Rice's comment that "these
stories are about *us*"? What do you think she means by that?
JB> What struck me, though, was that some of the 'what ifs'
JB> presented by Anne Rice in the theology she made up hadn't been
JB> presented here.
She certainly deserves credit for being wildly inventive with
the theology.
JB> And since we use the Anne Rice analogy quite a bit, it
JB> was fitting. (ARA...sure, the bible says the flood existed and you
JB> believe it because it's in the book. Anne Rice says vampires exist.
JB> Does that mean that because they are in a book that they DO exist?)
Ok, interesting. BTW, have you seen the Anne Rice FAQ?
JB> I also kind of enjoyed the 13 'Revelations of Evolution'. Those
JB> would put the knickers of most fundies in a twist, wouldn't they?
I must have missed or skipped over that one. I'm having real trouble
understanding how so many people can reject evolution 70 some years
after the Scopes trial.
... "I'm to sexy for the Borg..." - J. L. Picard
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 116/19 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920
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PATH: 116/19 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: George Ambler
|Sub: why
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:10:16
EID:e2b6 209b0940
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181ac38
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh George Ambler why wgah'nagl fhtagn.
TN> Why debate "religion"??? Why not just share on "relationship" with
TN> Jesus??? This is NOT dead stuff as religion often is, with rules and
TN> doctrines. This is living, loving, obeying cuz of love and wanting
TN> others to know freely. No debate necessary.
GA> Yes, I fully agree with you, after all what is LIFE without Jesus ?
Life. Next question?
... Next time, it will be 100 rounds of 30mm depleted uranium.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Relig/Free Speech Lawsuit
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:10:16
EID:364f 209b0940
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181ac39
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh The Raven Relig/Free Speech Lawsuit wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DT> 2. Abortion is not murder!
PS> It isn't. Murder is a purely legalistic term referring to the unlawful
PS> killing of a human being. A fetus is *not* defined as a human being
PS> and therefore falls outside the realm of murder.
TR> Well, another way of looking at it would be that abortion is
TR> legal, and therefore cannot be murder by definition since murder is
the
TR> unlawful taking of a life.
This is also true.
DT> Trosch and others believe that "Abortion is Murder." Trosch's
TR> I wonder if he knows how ridiculous he looks referring to himself
TR> in third person.
It is a common symptom of dissociative disorders, and doesn't dispose me
to thinking highly of his credibility. Myself, I think it's an effort to
pump up his ego by making him sound somewhat more important than he really
is.
... Latest conspiracy theory: Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:10:17
EID:6d57 209b0940
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181ac3a
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Barnett ANGEL FUNDY wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MG>Why does your god send plagues, fmaines, floods, disease, and so forth.
all
MG>he needs to do is make this a perfect universe. Instead, he murders
us.
MB> He whants us to deiced to fallow him.
If someone wants me to follow him, he cannot curry favor with me by
killing my relatives and letting me starve to death when I cannot feed
myself.
... The enemy diversion you have been ignoring will be the main attack.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:10:17
EID:ab9d 209b0940
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181ac3b
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Al Schroeder Genocidal Prophet wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AS> I REALLY didn't need to know that...
PS> Well, now you do. Enjoy.
AS> Does he have a collection of PENTHOUSE and PLAYBOY on a shelf right
AS> above the gallon jar?
I know not, nor do I desire to know.
... "Bother," said Pooh, as he scrambled his partition table.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:10:17
EID:7e1a 209b0940
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181ac3c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Al Schroeder OUR DAILY ALIEN wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> From what I remember from my General Psych. class, the stipulation is
PS> that aliens (apparently all kinds) are manifestations of the "dark"
PS> side of nature. Not necessarily *evil*, just...dark.
AS> They say the same thing about medieval man's conceptions about elves.
AS> Saucers from Faerae, anyone? Maybe Oberon had a scientific revolution
AS> TOO, under Elf-Hill...
Possibly. In that line, I can see LGMs (bad English, I know) as being
the 20th century versions of elves.
... WINTER: Something that rich people go south during.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Prayer
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:10:17
EID:7e66 209b0940
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181ac3d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Shelby Sherman Prayer wgah'nagl fhtagn.
SS> If anyone has info or a faq about the supposed medical studies on
SS> the power of prayer, please answer in this echo or send it my way.
No FAQ forthcoming here, but I can give you an idea of the principles
that may be involved.
It has been known for some time that the placebo effect can ameliorate
or entirely cure certain ailments in a small segment of the population.
Given that people who pray for relief usually believe pretty strongly
in it, it is not beyond possibility that the placebo effect will, in
some cases, provide som relief from their suffering.
... Send lawyers, guns and money...the shit has hit the fan.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:10:18
EID:fc3e 209b0940
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181ac3e
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Lynda Bustilloz Genocidal Prophet wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LB> I'd LOVE to see Hitler as as utterly and completely without a single
LB> solitary redemptive quality, but I think it would be a mistake to do
LB> so, and I think it is also a mistake to assume that everything he did
LB> sprang out of his own mind unassisted -- but wait, that part is for
LB> Al...
In a way, it is that "human" side to Hitler that makes him all the more
vile, IMO. If he were utterly and unredeemably evil, then it would be
easy to hate him. But since he displayed a good quality or two, even if
only briefly, he shows exactly what every human being is capable of.
We are all potential Hitlers, just as we are all potential Gandhis.
... He who dies with the most toys is still dead.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: Bullshit Science & Faith
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:35:56
EID:d665 209b0c60
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181b23c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Grant Farrington Bullshit Science & Faith wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> The same is true of Dr. Barnes. If a doctorate in Physics is not
JG> credential enough for you, I suspect it is solely because you are
JG> unable to agree with him and that you are unable to refute his work.
JG> In Christ,
JG> Jerry Crucifixbreath
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
GF> Intelligence & education have nothing to with not being able to face
GF> up to the fact one is insignificant.
I suspect that the highlighted bit above is *not* what Gilbreath put there
in the first place. If it was, then ignore the following. If not:
There is a rather specific guideline in this echo's policy regarding
quote-changing; specifically, it says DON'T DO IT. It is an offense
which is likely to get you booted from this echo rather quickly. HOLYSMOKE
isn't about changing the quotes to fit the accusations, no matter how
rough-and-tumble we run things here.
... "But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The Dark Side are they."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 907 225/99 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Grant Farrington
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:35:56
EID:26e2 209b0c60
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181b23d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Grant Farrington Science vs. Faith wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> If there were no mountains, and the earth was covered with water, why
JG> do we have so much evidence in the fossil record of land dwelling
JG> animals?
GF> Only someone who is mentally ill believes in such absurd rubbish :)
GF> Religion = Mental Illness
I'd ask you to show evidence that the last statement is true in all
cases, but that's because I'm a querulous young man who dislikes
broad statements.
... "The DM won't hit us with anything till we get to the dungeon."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:35:57
EID:03af 209b0c60
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3181b23e
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: Claims of deity construct wgah'nagl
fhtagn.
JG> identify with our 5 senses. X-RAYS and Radioactivity were unknown
JG> before we developed instruments capable of detecting them. Same with
Point being? The effects of x-rays and radioactivity could be seen without
the need for special instruments to detect them, in much the same way
that humans can detect infrared light without needing a set of IR goggles.
JG> "black holes". The POINT is so very much could exist all around us that
JG> we are simply incapable of "sensing". We are limited, and as such can
Have I ever claimed otherwise?
PS> Reality is reality, and not a subjective property. Perception is
PS> another thing entirely.
JG> And what about X-Rays and radioactivity and black holes, were they not
JG> "real" before we were able to "perceive" them ?
You are running on a tangent that is almost completely unrelated to what
I'm talking about. I have not, at any time, ever said that if something
cannot be perceived, then it doesn't exist. Stop trying to put words in
my mouth.
PS> Jim, you really must stop making these assumptions. Out of sheer
PS> curiosity and perhaps a little mean-spirited fun, on what grounds do
PS> you base the claim that I don't believe in anything that I can't see
or
PS> feel?
JG> I thought in previous messages, you claimed that if it is not
JG> physical, then it does not exist, and this was your basis in denying
JG> that god could not be a non physical entity.
You are sadly mistaken. I have said no such thing.
JG> that then must be completely lacking in love , and peace, and joy,
JG> and spiritual TRUTH simply because you refuse to give credence to
JG> anything that is not physical in nature? You can have your reality and
PS> Are you finished making outrageous claims about the contents and/or
PS> quality of my life, Jim?
JG> I certainly do not mean them in those terms. I am sure you are like
JG> most humans and decent and loving in many respects. But according to
JG> YOUR definitions you cannot possess those "qualities" because they are
JG> not "physical". Just because God is not physical, does not mean he
Another baseless assumption.
PS> Put on the brakes there, chummer. Where have I denied the reality of
PS> love? Think hard. Leaf through your archives, if you keep any. When
PS> you've come up with the answer (I assure you that there is indeed an
PS> answer and it doesn't at all match with your perception), then let me
PS> know.
JG> Unfortunately, I have neither the time or disk space to keep archives
JG> and leaf through them everytime someone asks me to. All you have to
do
JG> then is admit that something non-physical can exist. Your definition
of
I've never said that the non-physical *couldn't* exist. Nor have I said
that the non-physical *does* or *must* exist.
JG> reality seemed to be that if it isn't physical it doesn't exist and
JG> therefore "god the spirit" cannot exist because it is non physical.
Now
JG> you seem to want to say the non physical things can exist.
Jim, you are mistaken. I have not ever claimed that anything non-physical
is also non-real.
JG> I apologize if I have mistaken you for other people by confusion of
JG> where quotes came from , but it was my impression that you were in
JG> agreement that if it isn't physical, then it can't exist, and that was
JG> one of the reasons for saying god cannot exist. It is in these
Nope. See the above, as the drill is quite clear by now.
JG> I am certainly enjoying this message and it shows you are a reasonable
JG> person and I may indeed have mistaken someone elses quotes as coming
JG> from you. Or replying to a message from someone else that I thought
JG> was from you.
It's okay.
JG> My question to you then, is..."Is it worth scrutiny to discover the
JG> reality of this concept of loving the truth and loving your fellow man
JG> which is the basis of all of the laws of moses according to the
JG> teachings of Jesus and or the New Testament ?"
My response is likewise a question: Why worry about what an old book says?
Why not pursue the truth for its own sake, rather than on the order of
a group of people long dead?
PS> Question: Why limit goodness by calling it "God"?
JG> Because god has been defined as "creator" and "truth" and "life" and
JG> "good" and "love" and "controller". by many people.
God has also been defined as "murderer," "torturer," "liar," "death,"
"evil," "hatred," and "evil scum-sucking bastard" by many people. Should
we then speak of God as being synonymous with evil as well?
JG> Jesus described this as being "born again" once with water which is
JG> the physical birth of man the animal being. and once with the spirit
of
JG> truth and love which is man the spiritual or humane being". In other
JG> words we have evolved not into man a physical animal , but we have
JG> evolved some kind of "spiritual consciousness".
Is this "spiritual consciousness" only available by the means you discussed?
JG> If you had been reading my posts carefully you would see it is because
JG> I have defined god as "the truth". What we have are just
This is a bit silly, Jim. If God is the truth because you say he is, then
God can certainly be lies or evil because I say that he is.
... DM Advice: You'll never find dice that are thrown in anger.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: test
|Date: 26 Apr 96 23:07:16
EID:84f1 209ab8e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3181a49a
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 896B0E2B
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Starwyn and Dan were killing time yakking about test:
DC> ... "PENNEcostal school, where God _is_ NOODLES!": Lynda Bustilloz
Wow! I've been taglined! You sure pulled THAT one out of the darkages!
(G)
"Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-- the Ingersollian Golden Rule
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Road Kill Cafe - Today's Special: Poodles `N Noodles
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ending
|Date: 27 Apr 96 12:36:58
EID:c92a 209b6480
MSGID: 1:124/9005 31821538
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 65ed97c7
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Martin!
Veneris dies April 26 1996, Dixit Martin Goldberg ad ALL:
LH>> I would just like everyone here to know that this is the last
LH>> message I plan on posting in this area? Why? because I feel
LH>> sorry for all you people who are so damn....pig headed, that
LH>> they can't believe in anything they don't understand, and
MG> Oh my. I guess I'll just have to start believing in god now.
Yup...if you can't hook 'em with "fellowshipping," pull the guilt routine.
"Look, I'm sorry your feelings are so easily hurt, but I can't believe in
superstitious nonsense unless you want to provide some evidence for what
you're saying." Had enough of "The End Times?" Shit, _I_ have.
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Leon Askin Fan Club - 214/412-8457 (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christanic fascists
|Date: 27 Apr 96 12:38:58
EID:7838 209b64c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 318215ee
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 3a9167e2
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies April 26 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad All:
FR> SALT LAKE CITY -- Seeking to sidestep a federal law guaranteeing equal
FR> access in the schools, Utah lawmakers will hold a special legislative
FR> session today to vote on a controversial bill aimed at restricting
FR> lesbian and gay student clubs while allowing all other extracurricular
FR> clubs to meet.
FR> How's _that_ for Christanic death cultist thinking?
I'm surprised that it has taken them THIS long to get that off the ground.
Suzy Q and I left SLC in '92, and that crap was brewing THEN (and there
were some rumblings of banning liquor in Utah...yeah, THAT would have gone
over well...you'd see who really belonged to the Church and in a big hurry).
FR> These Christanic death cult fascists enact bigoted laws against
FR> innocent people which then stipulates that groups which foment the
FR> very bigotry they're laboring under are unlawfully meeting!
You noticed that, eh? There are -killer- bees in this particular beehive.
State police: "Sorry, we're going to have to close down the Capitol. You
guys are bigots, and this kind of behaviour is against the law."
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Leon Askin Fan Club - 214/412-8457 (1:124/9005)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 27 Apr 96 00:35:17
EID:0a06 209b0460
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65f7a766
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 317f7488
SA> Yes, please! Give me any details you can on it; I'd really
SA> appreciate it. I started sending samples out to syndicates two
SA> years ago, and I'm now worried that I've been ripped off somehow
SA> (it's happened in the past, with other cartoonists. Witness the
SA> fate of the Yellow Kid, among others.) If this has happened, I'm
SA> sunk. I can't afford a lawsuit or anything.
Netmail me an address and I'll mail a few clips out of the paper to you...wait
a second.....this is called "Over the Hedge" by Fry and Lewis. Or a fax
and I'll send them on that way.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: The rest: Debunked
|Date: 27 Apr 96 01:09:00
EID:634b 209b0920
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 65f80d3a
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3180440c
AM> You tell me Fredrick, how possible would it be to flip another
AM> 1000 times
AM> and get the same sequence?? You are engaging in an empirical
AM> argument that
YAAAWWWWWWNNNNN......how many times do we have to tell you clowns this?
The universe is a prodcut of it's own natural laws. If you started to make
a universe today, it would have the same natural laws. Therefore, there
is no chance involved in having a universe usch as we live in or that we
re here. The antropic principle is full of shit. The coin flipping analogy
is completely unrelated.
>> 6. Second Law of Thermodynamics
AM>
AM> If it were only that simple. Please state some example of
AM> objects randomly
AM> self assembling into more complex objects. Then cite examples
AM> of any
YAAAAWWWWNNNNNNN.......once again. Take a frying pan and cook some bacon.
Pour out the majority of the grease. Then fill the hot pan with water.
Add a drop or two of liquid detergent. Wht happens? You'll see the thin
film of insoluble oil on top of the water run for cover. Why is this?
Becasue the hydophilic atmosphere has changed to somewhat hydrophobic.
The critical micelle concentration and cloud point of the detergent from
little round balls of fat. Why are they balls? Becasue the sphere has
the lowest surface to volume ratio. Thsi lowers the surface free energy
of the system.
Now, there's plenty of protein from the bacon lying around. If some of
it has typical membrane spanning regions (ie stretches of amino acids that
are hydrophobic) they will become solubilized in the membrane (ie the outside
of the lipid mass). and stay there. If, by chance they can do anything
for the budding organism, they will do it and help it to survive. Such
is evolution in action.
Thsi is an example of thermodynamic self assembly. It occurs in nature
all the time. There is nothing you can say that disproves it. It is a
fact. You are, quite simply, wrong.
AM> Then how is it so many so called vestigal organs have been
AM> discovered to
AM> have a use previously unknown. Secondly, when are we going to
So what? so they had a use that was previouslu unknown. Is this supposed
to be a point? If so, you had better expalin it to me.
AM> Hardly. Its opposed to classic Darwinism. The results are the
AM> same, the method much different.
And so what's the difference. PE shows evolution to have occured, by a
different method as you claim. Evolution still occurred. God loses out.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Selena Kerr
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: The end?
|Date: 25 Apr 96 20:26:43
EID:ed89 2099a340
PID: Telegard 2.99.g4 [ml]
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 317ccf90
MSGID: 1:252/107 317fe003
TID: GE 1.11+
`07-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Selena Kerr <=-`03`03
SA> A lone voice in the wilderness, Selena mournfully howled out "The
SA> end?"
SA>
DC> Not in the least. Do you like a crispy, high fiber crust?
SK> uhh.. sure.. don't like chocolate pie though.
SA> Heathen.
SA> --Wolfie
what??!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: KEN DAVIS
|Sub: Flood impossibilities.
|Date: 27 Apr 96 17:21:46
EID:5bd1 209b8aa0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31828fea
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh KEN DAVIS Flood impossibilities. wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MM>Hey, don't put an attitude stamp on me. None of us know THE TRUTH.
MM>"Faith and/or illusions" have this in common that they are concepts
MM>of the mind, without any ironclad physical proof - which is why I
MM>used them opposite scientific methodology (which DOES demand proof).
KDM> No it doesn't. It can't, for that matter.
KD> Explain that, if you would.
Proof is a mathematical concept and has no bearing on the real world, as
proof is an absolute verification of a statement's falsity or veracity.
What with uncertainty being what it is, such absolute verification is
well-nigh impossible in reality, and thus no one should ask for proof.
What *can* be asked for is evidence; evidence is a far cry from proof in
that it is almost never absolute, because all evidence does is point
towards a certain conclusion or set of conclusions.
... "What good's a reward if you ain't around to use it?" - Han Solo
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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|From: Grant Farrington
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: weird stuff
|Date: 27 Apr 96 16:39:34
EID:36c2 209b84e0
MSGID: 3:640/201.3 31824ddf
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 595de7c5
Hello Katherine.
24 Apr 96 11:53, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Karl Schneider:
KS>> I'm sure he did all those things, and more. I always enjoy
KS>> reading about the naked boy he was with, out in the woods....
KW> I love watching fundies try to justify that one away.
Haven't heard of this before, what's it about ?
Grant
--- GoldED 2.50 UNREG
* Origin: Wild Magic BBS Hervey Bay Qld OZ (3:640/201.3)
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 640/201 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: HIV is 'Harmless' and does NOT 'cause' AIDS
|Date: 27 Apr 96 13:17:40
EID:2401 209b6a20
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 318256b4
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 65efc148
MG> This is so much nonsense. From the initials, I don't know which
MG> cretis it is, but one hopes that he has some
MG> evidence to back this up rather than a few baseless
MG> claims. I know more than a few virologists. They
MG> would laugh heartily t this as they believe the
MG> same thing about immunologists.
The poster was Terry Liberty-Parker, the same idjit that believes tanks
drove over people at Waco. I enjoyed your analysis. And I trust it much
more than this sort of claptrap . . .
};)
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 907 225/99 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Your Chain Letter [2/2]
|Date: 26 Apr 96 05:45:00
EID:df31 209a2da0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 31809b1c
Gemantria:
___
(((J.j.*[X1])2^Sue)Your Chain Letter [2/2][X2])=[X3]04-25-96 21:42
---
JH> How odd... I never saw part one.
JH>> Can I call you Saint, or would you prefer MISTER Jude?
SA> Ever notice how "Jude" can be a short form of "Judas"?
JH> CAN BE?
JH> IT IS the short form of Judas.
JH> Which in turn was a very common name. And Iscariot was a place
JH> name. Put the two together and you've got Jesus being betrayed
JH> by John Doe from Cleveland. While I don't doubt that there are
JH> historical elements in the Gospels, I am inclined to suspect
JH> that Judas and the betrayal were added later for "color".
I heard somewhere that Judas translated meant The Knife, or something
like that. A friend of mine who does a lot of lecture circuits worked
it into his routine, as a matter of fact. I don't recall specifics,
but something along the lines of Jesus being a local mafiosa with hired
goons named The Knife (Judas) and Rocko (Paul) . . . };)
... Ahhh, AHHHH, I am Cornholio, aaaa aaa aaaahhhh AHHHHHH! -- Beavis
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 907 225/99 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: 2 A Hardy Sucker Punch
|Date: 26 Apr 96 06:10:02
EID:2f91 209a3140
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180a0fa
Gemantria:
___
(((Al*[X1])2^Michael)2 A Hardy Sucker Punch[X2])=[X3]04-25-96 08:05
---
AS> Y'know, what would be REALLY funny would be if you answered this
AS> simply with "OK".
Ah, escalation of armaments . . . let me just don my blast apron and
we'll see . . . };)
AS> Has everybody FLIPPED on this echo? I feel like I'm trying to
AS> placate a NUMBER of prima donnas. Even Elliot, who I thought was
AS> fairly reasonable, has twice slapped you down for innoculous
AS> responses. I'm afraid to say "Yes" or "No" to him now.
Al, you need to step back and let them duke it out between themselves.
You've tried very patiently to hold things together, to get people
talking, etc. Nobody around here faults you for your efforts or is
ignorant of them. But you have to let them go. Let Elliot and Hardy
go at it, let others disagree. Otherwise, you're going to get more
than you share of stress and all that goes with it. Its not worth it.
Elliot may be overreacting, maybe not. The same for Hardy. But they
are big boys and should have the priviledge of learning from their
mistakes just like everyone else, okay?
You're a friend, so I hate to see you get swept up in this. Really,
just take a step back, get a good breath, and try to let go of it.
It'll eat you ass-first if you don't.
AS> Remember when we didn't have to worry about people's egoes? Where
AS> we said, "Sorry, the sweetness and light echo is down the hall?". I
AS> don't like being needlessly cruel (in Hector's case, I indulged a
AS> little, but only in response. He could handle it) but I DID think we
AS> were among ADULTS who wouldn't flare at every little statement. Where
AS> we didn't walk on eggshells.
This has never been a safe place for egos, Al. We all run the risk of
having ours bruised. And this place toughens them up. Perhaps that is
the purpose of this place, other than the stated purpose: to make us
all toughed, more informed, more intelligent and skilled and better
thinkers, regardless of our personal ideologies. Its easy to see it as
an us vs them sort of thing, but that's just shallow. We have a place
with several dozen people who all want to exercise their opinions while
exorcising their doubts. We're all going to clash from time to time.
It happens. Sometimes, in very major ways. But each of us comes here
voluntarily and stays here that way. This place, like the world at
large, can be a very nasty place. But nastiness is needed for growth
at times.
... Ahhh, AHHHH, I am Cornholio, aaaa aaa aaaahhhh AHHHHHH! -- Beavis
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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SEEN-BY: 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: The Fire
|Date: 26 Apr 96 06:16:04
EID:212a 209a3200
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180a264
Gemantria:
___
(((Al*[X1])2^Sue)THE FIRE[X2])=[X3]04-25-96 03:00
---
SA> Got it. I'll see what I can do in the next couple of weeks or so.
AS> the postage, if you wish it.
SA> Don't be facetious.
AS> Well, I thought I would offer, but you notice I said, "IF you wish
AS> it."
SA> Why is this starting to remind me of those two gophers from the old
SA> Warner Bros. cartoons?
AS> THANKyou, THANKyou. After you! Oh, no, I insist...I wouldn't dream of
AS> it...
. . . or the old Marx Brothers routine:
Thank you.
No, thank you.
Oh, no no no, thank YOU.
Oh, I insist, thank _you_!
Etc . . .
... And to my cat Mittens I leave my entire, vast. . .BOOT TO THE HEAD!!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 907 225/99 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Martin's Koan
|Date: 26 Apr 96 06:21:06
EID:ecbb 209a32a0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180a392
Gemantria:
___
(((Elliott*[X1])2^Martin)Martin's Koan[X2])=[X3]04-25-96 23:56
---
EF> What is the sound of one airplane crashing in mid-air?
Not as loud as a tree falling in the forest, but significantly louder
than one hand clapping . . .
Put your ear next to your monitor and I'll play the .WAV file of it for
you right now . . . };)
... Being weird just isn't enough anymore!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 907 225/99 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119
SEEN-BY: 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 26 Apr 96 06:30:08
EID:bae0 209a33c0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180a5b0
Gemantria:
___
(((Mark*[X1])2^Martin)ANGEL FUNDY[X2])=[X3]04-24-96 00:01
---
MG>MG>>Why has your god not kept his promise.
MG> MB> He promised never to destroy the whole world that way again, so
MG> MB> he has keep his promise or we would not be haveing this talk.
MG>Answer the question. If you want to pick at it, then I'll ask another...
MG>Why does your god send plagues, fmaines, floods,
MG>disease, and so forth. all
MG>he needs to do is make this a perfect universe. Instead, he murders
us.
MB> He whants us to deiced to fallow him.
????
He wants us de-iced to let him lay fallow?
???
. . . what an odd thought . . .
... Did IQs drop sharply when I wasn't looking? -- Ripley
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Rules of conference
|Date: 26 Apr 96 06:42:10
EID:f93a 209a3540
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180a882
Gemantria:
___
(((Sean*[X1])2^Richard)Rules of conference[X2])=[X3]04-24-96 16:16
---
> Gemantria: (((J.j.*[X1])2^Carl)04-21-96 01:22[X2])=Rules of
> conference[X3]
> JH> On Apr 09 21:22 96, Carl Linde of 1:130/113.2 wrote:
> CL> In regards to the language that some of these people (and I
> CL> use the term loosely, VERY loosely) use, only shows that
> CL> their vocabulary is indeed limited and not of sound moral
> CL> character!!!
> JH> You got a fucking problem with my sound moral character, asshole?
> It won't do any good, J.J. I and many others have attempted to teach
> them such additional words as Fuck, Shit, Piss, Bitch, etc. They are
> simply unable to learn them. And they say WE have a limited
> vocabulary. Of course, if you're really lucky, you might get them to
> parrot those words, you know, like: F*ck, Sh*t, P*ss, B*tch, etc. What
> I want to know is how is the * pronounced? I can't find it at all in
> the dictionary . . . };)
SM> It's the seventh vowel (if you count "Y" as one).
Well, imagine my relief. I was worried that it was like the Welsh
vowel `w' . . . };)
SM> It is ALWAYS silent. And Vanna pays you if you solve the
SM> puzzle without buying it. :)
That explains why they always pronounce it under their breath, then!
One more of life's mysteries solved . . . };)
... Jesus was born because Mary had an immaculate contraption.(R. Lederer)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 26 Apr 96 06:43:12
EID:c7a3 209a3560
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180a8c0
Gemantria:
___
(((Sean*[X1])2^Richard)Science vs. Faith[X2])=[X3]04-24-96 16:14
---
> Gemantria: (((Ed*[X1])2^J.j.)04-19-96 23:40[X2])=Science vs. Faith[X3]
> EM> Word salad got tossed at Rob Burcham by J.J. Hitt on 18 Apr 96
> JH> On Apr 10 00:37 96, Rob Burcham of 1:280/76 wrote:
> JH> JG>> I have heard about some of those transitional forms:
> JH> JG>>
> JH> JG>> Piltdown man ............ outright fraud
> JH> JG>> Peking man .............. based on missing evidence
> JH> JG>> Nebraska man ............ modeled from a pig's tooth
> JH> JG>> Orce man ................ from a donkey's skull
> JH> JG>> Java man ................ fully ape
> JH> JG>> Neanderthal man ......... fully human, probably afflicted
> JH> JG>> with rickets
> JH> JG>>
> JH> JG>> Do you have any more to add?
> RB> Tidy Bowl man............skeleton made of porcelain
> JH> Good Humor man skeleton made from popcicle sticks.
> JH> Peeking man Primordial vouyer.
> JH> Java man Earliest known coffee drinker.
> JH> LaBrea man lived in pits.
> JH> Egg man Walrus, probably afflicted with
> JH> juju eyeball.
> EM> (ROTFL!)
> EM> Rennaisance Man Short, fat, bald Italian probably
> EM> afflicted with desire to prepare
> EM> illiterate boot recruits for G.E.D.
> EM> Orkin Man Most recent stage in evolution of
> EM> dorky polyester work clothes.
> Muffin Man Remains only found around Drury
> Lane-Oh!
> Not Quite Man Remains only found in the vicinity
> of Grand Rapids, MI
> Hey, man! Tommy Chong's skeleton.
> Rubber Band Man Late Disco remains.
> Super Man Only found under apartment complexes
> Idea Man ?????
SM> Demolition Man Takes dynamite to this silly
SM> thread....
Well, silly is as silly does . . .
... Ahhh, AHHHH, I am Cornholio, aaaa aaa aaaahhhh AHHHHHH! -- Beavis
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 907 225/99 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 103 104 211 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119
SEEN-BY: 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
Y: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Your Chain Letter
|Date: 26 Apr 96 06:59:14
EID:1f82 209a3760
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180ac82
Gemantria:
___
(((Sean*[X1])2^Robert)Your Chain Letter[X2])=[X3]04-24-96 02:13
---
> JH> On Apr 16 21:07 96, J.J. Hitt of 1:106/9788.2 wrote:
> SJ>> You will receive good luck within four days of receiving
> SJ>> this letter, providing, in return that you send it on.
> JH> Hey, Jude!
> JH> NOTHING HAPPENED.
> OK, at this point I (and I suppose Al) have to start worrying
> about self-preservation since it seems other people's luck
> is linked with yours. As you know, that deathcurse which
> failed to affect you had serious ramifications on both Al and
> me--not so good for Al but pretty neat for me. Now, did you
> send off the chainletter and are now waiting for good luck,
> or are you waiting for bad luck after doing nothing?
> I just need to know so I can either take the appropriate pre-
> cautions or enjoy myself for the next few weeks.
SM> I've got an idea!!
SM> SEND THE LETTER TO ASMODEUS!!!!!!!
Now _that's_ nefariousness at its best . . . };)
... Real Men Love Jesus. But wear a condom. -- Promise Keepers Motto
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 907 225/99 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:03:16
EID:c1a5 209a3860
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180ad74
Gemantria:
___
(((Sue*[X1])2^Martin)dinosaurs?[X2])=[X3]04-24-96 11:40
---
SA> looks a lot like that. As a unique thing, it wouldn't be
SA> bad, but when it seems to be all the common rage, something's
SA> gone wrong, methinks.
MG> There's a new strip in the local paper that looks something like the
MG> stuff you sent me. The characters are different but the general idea
MG> is the same. I don't have a paper and can't remember the name, but
if
MG> you remind me, I'll look at it and let you know.
SA> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SA> Yes, please! Give me any details you can on it; I'd really
SA> appreciate it. I started sending samples out to syndicates two
SA> years ago, and I'm now worried that I've been ripped off somehow
SA> (it's happened in the past, with other cartoonists. Witness the
SA> fate of the Yellow Kid, among others.) If this has happened, I'm
SA> sunk. I can't afford a lawsuit or anything.
Well, if it's pretty clear cut, you should be able to get an attorney
to take it on contingency.
... Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jets!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 218/801 907 225/99 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Science
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:06:18
EID:ba41 209a38c0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180ae2a
Gemantria:
___
(((Sue*[X1])2^Dan)SCIENCE[X2])=[X3]04-24-96 11:44
---
SA> ... American to Canadian: "Why do you have Gene Wilder on your $10
SA> bill?" -!- GEcho 1.00
DC> Been a while since I've been to Canada, and they usually took
DC> our money... Who's really on that bill? Or, is it another
DC> looney?
SA> A "Loonie" is a $1 coin, and only a $1 coin. It has the Queen on
SA> the obverse, and a loon floating on a lake on the reverse (hence the
SA> nickname.) We now have a $2 coin as well, a conglomerate of two
SA> metals (the centre is sort of a copper colour, and the outer ring is
SA> nickle) with the Queen on the obverse and polar bears on the reverse
SA> (I favour the nickname "Bearie", to be harmonised with the Loonie,
SA> but people have started calling it a "Twoony", which I think is
SA> really stupid.)
Kinda looney, eh? };)
SA> The Royal Canadian Air farce first suggested Bearie
SA> for it, though they then went on to demonstrate fictional $5 and $10
SA> coins - the "Moosie" actually had Prince Charles on it. :) The
SA> really dumb thing about that $2 coin is that it has a tendency to
SA> break (the middle part pops out) when it gets cold. Brilliant. A
SA> CANADIAN coin that breaks when it gets cold. Duh.
Maybe its an inflation tool? Just think . . . it gets cold and your
money doubles . . . };)
... I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:22:20
EID:d355 209a3ac0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180b1ec
Gemantria:
___
(((Judith*[X1])2^Al)A FAIR & JUST GOD[X2])=[X3]04-25-96 06:27
---
AS> Yes. This won't fix things forever and ever. But it may keep people
AS> from starving until attitudes towards population and birth control
JB> Maybe we could send them the idea for a 2 tier fish ranch that has
JB> been tried here in the south with some success. You raise chickens in
JB> wire cages over a catfish tank. The catfish subsist off the droppings
JB> from the chickens. So you actually have 3 forms of protein coming from
JB> it...chickens, eggs and fish. It's also rather quick from setup to
JB> harvest of the fish, with eggs coming almost immediately.
On one hand I find this ingenious, on the other, I never want to eat
catfish again . . . };) Now I had heard of another two-tiered project
similar to this, but the details escape me. From what I remember, it
was the raising of chickens around certain plants that produced
veggies, so that the chickens got to eat some from the plants, reducing
the cost of the chickenfeed each year. I just can't remember what the
plant were. This may be something to explore, because it could lead to
a nice three tier system . . . };)
... Bend the facts to fit the conclusion. It's easier that way.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Aids
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:26:22
EID:3478 209a3b40
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180b2de
Gemantria:
___
(((Judith*[X1])2^John)AIDS[X2])=[X3]04-25-96 06:57
---
JO> not only to gay people but to non-gays as well. Many people with
JO> HIV/AIDS often go untreated untill too late because they are afraid
of
JO> the connotation that still exists in many people's minds. And that
is
JO> the fault of the improper education, and of course religious bigotry.
JB>
JB> And asshole idiots like Liberty-Parker who dump 4 part posts into
JB> every echo they can find 'proving' that HIV and AIDS are not
JB> linked...and that AIDS is not contagious.
JB> Try to educate people, change their behavior, slow the spread of the
JB> disease and then this idiot spreads something like this. I consider
his
JB> posts criminal. Especially for the young people who will find
JB> justification in those posts for not protecting themselves...and will
JB> die because of it.
Though it may get me jumped on by some, I suggest that people who post
such stuff would achieve perfect justice by getting infected by the
very disease they are denying. TLP _should_ learn about the truth of
the lies he spreads firsthand, IMHO.
The worst part of it is, though, is that it will lead to people not
knowing WHAT to believe, and that would be almost as bad as people
using TLP's posts to justify their own liscentiousness. There are
times I wish there was a hell, just to contemplate the circle for
people who spread those lies . . .
... Power is an illusion; only stupidity is real.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Harmony
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:33:24
EID:ea85 209a3c20
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180b484
Gemantria:
___
(((Marilyn*[X1])2^The)Harmony[X2])=[X3]04-25-96 18:45
---
TR> Tell your husband to stop pitying himself and his people and
TR> start doing something with his life. History is history, and his
TR> tribe is history. I have no sympathy for him, his tribe, or any of the
TR> other pathetic whiners who disgrace our race by refusing to accept
TR> that what is, is.
MB> My husband has something to say. He doesn't type, so I'm typing, but
MB> he's talking.
MB> I worked and lived in the White Man's world all my life.
MB> I figured you couldn't beat 'em, so I joined them and
MB> made sure I did better work than they did. So I was
MB> usually in a supervisory position. And I don't whine
MB> or cry; I'm too busy living and having fun.
MB> So put THAT in you (peace)pipe and smoke it.
Bravo for your husband, and kudos to you both. Very well said. It'll
be ignored, but still, a very good effort and response.
... Possessor of a mind not merely twisted but actually sprained.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:45:26
EID:ee0a 209a3da0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180b756
Gemantria:
___
(((Preston*[X1])2^Terry)Waco rememberance[X2])=[X3]04-26-96 16:50
---
DW> Maybe *you* can tell us when and where *tanks* were driven *thru* a
DW> "kid occupied residence". If you can't, why not shut the hell up
DW> about this subject and save yourself some embarrassment?
TL> The 'ordinary' person is likely to refer to an armoured vehicle as a
TL> tank when it's breaching a residence occupied with men, women and
TL> children.
PS> Do they not refer to armored vehicles as "tanks" when said vehicles
PS> are used to run over a crowded kennel, or when they perform
PS> cross-country exercises? Why are they only referred to as "tanks" when
PS> breaching a human-occupied dwelling?
PS> Further, it has been known for some time that "ordinary" people are
PS> not especially bright; "ordinary" people believed for several centuries
PS> that the earth was flat and that a good stench kept disease away.
And, case in point, just because people say it doesn't make it true.
};)
I used to have an old blue Vista Cruiser station wagon. My father used
to call it a tank. Would TLP see it as actually being a tank, in that
case? Of course, if he believes that AIDS is harmless and AZT causes
HIV, etc., then he may believe anything.
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 218/801
|From: Richard Smith
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Texas Aliens..
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:55:28
EID:64ef 209a3ee0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3180b9b0
* Reply to msg originally in Bama
Gemantria:
___
(((Bill*[X1])2^All)Aurora 'airship' tale end[X2])=[X3]04-25-96 12:29
---
I can't fill J.J.'s shoes when it comes to finding the truly odd to post
here, but I figured I'd pitch in and help until he turns his sources
back on again in a couple of weeks. Enjoy!
BR> * Originally By: Bill Ralls
BR> * Originally To: All
BR> * Originally Re: Aurora 'airship' tale endures
BR> * Original Area: Fidonet - DFW UFO
BR> * Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12
BR> Aurora 'airship' tale endures - by: Jo Virgil
BR> Special to the Fort Worth Star Telegram
BR> April 19, 1996
BR> AURORA - April nights in North Texas haven't changed much in 99
BR> years. Clear skies splattered with stars. The smells and the sounds
of
BR> crikets.
BR> But legend has it that one night, 99 years ago, the Texas sky
BR> contained more than stars and pollen.
BR> In the tiny Wise County town of Aurora, between Boyd and Rhome on
BR> Texas 114, the night of April 19, 1897, was marked by a mystery - or
a
BR> hoax - that lives on in the stories of old-timers.
BR> Newspaper accounts from that week tell of an "airship" that crashed
BR> into the windmill in Aurora in the middle of the night, exploding,
BR> spreading metal debris accross several acres and destroying the
BR> windmill.
BR> The remains of the body of the pilot were gathered, according to
BR> reports from newspaper correspondent F.E. Hayden, and were buried in
BR> the town's cemetery. Hayden's report assured readers that "enough
BR> remains were gathered to determine it was not an inhabitant of this
BR> world."
BR> Hayden's story describes papers that were found at the crash site
BR> with hieroglyphic-looking writing, and scraps of metal that were
BR> unfamiliar to town residents.
BR> Although the tale may sound like an episode from the X-Files, this
BR> was 1897, six years before the Wright brothers made their airplane
BR> stay aloft long enough to call it flying.
BR> The only visible reminders of the incident still remaining in Aurora
BR> are a small piece of the pilot's headstone (vandals made off with most
BR> of it) and a historical marker at the cemetery that mentions the
BR> legend.
BR> After the initial flurry of publicity in 1897, the legend was nearly
BR> forgotten until the early 1970s, when UFO researchers heard the story
BR> and came to investigate.
BR> In 1973, the Mutual UFO Network in Seguin sought legal permission to
BR> exhume the gravesite, but the Aurora Cemetery Association obtained a
BR> court injuction prohibiting the exhumation.
BR> The International UFO Bureau in Oklahoma sent investigators with
BR> metal detectors to the site of the reported crash.
BR> Brawley Oates, who in the 1970s owned the land where the windmill
BR> once stood, told newspaper reporters that when he bought the property
BR> he cleaned out a well and recovered large amounts of metal the size
of
BR> a man's fist. Although Oates had heard the airship stories, he said
he
BR> didn't think much about the metal and simply junked it before capping
BR> the well.
BR> Investigators found bits and pieces of metal at the site, however.
BR> Some were pot lids or tack rings, but a few pieces were
BR> unidentifiable.
BR> "The recovered metal puzzled our metallurgists," Walter H. Andrus
BR> Jr., international director of the Mutual UFO Network, said this week.
BR> Tom Gray, a physicist during the 1970s at North Texas State
BR> University, now the University of North Texas, examined some of the
BR> unusual, brownish metal. Gray determined at the time that it was about
BR> 75 percent iron, but said it lacked some of the properties common to
BR> iron, such as the ability to be magnetized. Gray acknowledged that it
BR> was an unusual metal but cautioned that he couldn't draw any
BR> conclusions about it's origins.
BR> However, Gray, who now teaches at Kansas State University, said this
BR> week that he eventually learned that the metal he examined was
BR> probably roofing material.
BR> "It turned out to be an iron-zinc alloy that, because of the way it
BR> was processed, was not magnetic," he said. "Nothing necessarily
BR> extrater- restrial about it."
BR> All strange stories have more than one side, though. Many Aurora
BR> residents today believe that the story was a hoax, a practical joke
BR> that took on a life of its own.
BR> The late Etta Pegues, a local writer and historian, wrote in a town
BR> history book that the tale began as a publicity stunt by Hayden to
BR> draw attention to the town, which had been declining in population in
BR> the mid- 1890s.
BR> Tales of sightings of airships circulated throughout the Midwest in
BR> early 1897. Skeptics claim that 5the stories were started as a
BR> practical joke by railroad telegraphers.
BR> Joseph E. "Truthful" Scully, a Forth Worth railroad conductor at the
BR> time, acted as a spokesman for the telegraphers and acknowledged to
BR> re- porters that bogus reports of sightings had apparently touched off
BR> a rash of imagined UFO sightings by people across North Texas.
BR> Hayden, said some locals, grabbed the idea of a UFO and took off
BR> with it.
BR> Others pointed out that, during the late 1890s, science fiction
BR> writers H.G. Wells and Jules Verne were popular, firing imaginations.
BR> "Probably 30 to 40 people a year come in looking for information
BR> about the airship crash," said Ruth Hollinsworth of the Wise Ccounty
BR> Heritage Museum in Decatur.
BR> ------------------------------ end
BR> ---------------------------------------
BR> ... XXXXXXXX IN STEREO WHERE AVAILABLE XXXXXXXX
BR> -!- FMail/386 1.02+
BR> ! Origin: The DataBank * Exploring the Unknown * (214)363-2896 *
BR> (1:124/7015)
... Dana Andrews said prunes gave him the runes...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Syr Undry (1:203/9046)
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SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Starwyn
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: TEST
|Date: 25 Apr 96 22:10:00
EID:e9ea 2099b140
RJ> AS>St> Now why would I want to kill the poor thing?
RJ> AS> Hmmm. You either have a very poor self-image, or a very
RJ>good
RJ> St> Neither. Just honest observation. :)
RJ> Am I sensing a "Maggie O'Connell Complex" here?
:) LOL!
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: Visualize Whirled Peas! (1:104/515)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 25 Apr 96 17:16:00
EID:3820 20998a00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org d68bf651
MB>LB> First of all, everyone assumes that the earth had the same feature
MB>LB>as it does today, Mt. Everest for example. If we go by the dating
of
MB>LB>the bible, this is possibly true, but there is evedence that there
has
MB>LB>anywhere from 150,000 years ago upto 4000 BC. The point of this is
that
MB>LB>Mt. Everest did not exist up until about 50,000 years ago or there
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
MB>Well guys I do believe that he has a valid point how about you.
Only to an idiot.
MB> Your Brother in Christ,
I am not your brother, nor do I copulate with imaginary deities.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Certainly I support the right to arm bears.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: I and Thou
|Date: 25 Apr 96 17:16:00
EID:ff69 20998a00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 34912043
RS>FR>Feel free to correct my spelling, lawyer, as I can use it. Yet when
RS>FR>you fuck up, have the decorum to admit it -- if not to everyone else
RS>FR>then at least to yourself.
RS> JJ> Sputter all you want to, you illiterate asshole. "I and
my
RS> JJ> sons" is never correct grammar.
RS>Christian Luv!
guffaw...I missed this before.
Did JJ really say that?
"I and my sons like pizza" is perfectly proper grammar.
sheesh...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Join the Pistol club. Drink til 12, pistol 3.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Rules of conference
|Date: 25 Apr 96 17:16:00
EID:2c7f 20998a00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 34966cd5
RS> JH> You got a fucking problem with my sound moral character, asshole?
RS> It won't do any good, J.J. I and many others have attempted to teach
RS> them such additional words as Fuck, Shit, Piss, Bitch, etc. They are
RS> parrot those words, you know, like: F*ck, Sh*t, P*ss, B*tch, etc. What
RS> I want to know is how is the * pronounced? I can't find it at all in
RS> the dictionary . . . };)
It's not so difficult, it's just a lot of trouble.
Imagine replying to a comment with "No shasteriskit"....
---
* OLX 2.2 * Certainly I support the right to arm bears.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Life in the fast lane.
|Date: 25 Apr 96 18:58:00
EID:94ec 20999740
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org e84438f4
RJ> JH> RB> Too bad Marlin Perkins died.
RJ> JH> How did it happen?
RJ> JH> One too many hits off of the tranquilizer gun?
RJ> KS> Wasn't he the guy who ate pebbles and twigs?
RJ> That's Euel Gibbons.
Ack. You're right.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Bought my sister a bike. Now she peddles it all over town
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Laura Hodgkins
|Sub: ending
|Date: 25 Apr 96 18:58:00
EID:c0ae 20999740
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 18ce29c7
LH>I would just like everyone here to know that this is the last message
LH>I plan on posting in this area? Why? because I feel sorry for all you
OK. Bye.
LH>a possibility. so from now on, unless you have something intelligent
and
LH>mature to say, please don't bother answering this posting or any
LH>others. once again I pity all of you.
I am so grateful for your pity, I could just shit.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Multitasking: Start a download, go get a beer...
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Peck
|Sub: Chrysostom's pasha homily
|Date: 25 Apr 96 18:58:00
EID:c483 20999740
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org ed7c5b45
KP> -=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Ken Peck <=-
KP> > If anyone be devout and a lover of God, enjoy
KP> > this beautiful and radiant Feast of Feasts!
KP> FR> Do you have any evidence for these gods of yours? Any at all?
KP>Only one God, Fredric. And yes I have a lot of evidence.
Well, bubba, here's your chance for fame. Let's have it.
(The 'evidence', that is...)
KP> === ==== = _@
KP> Ken Peck + _ \<._
KP> ========= (_)/ (_) Kenneth_Peck@clr.com
^^^^^^^^
what are these?...swollen testicles?
---
* OLX 2.2 * I haven't laughed so hard since I puked on a fundy.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: John Steinson
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 25 Apr 96 18:58:00
EID:7856 20999740
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 6a68d7f1
JS>JH> JS> The Institute for Atheistic Research Foundation (IFART)
JS> So...we have IFART.
JS> OK..it's not exactly the work of Einstein...
JS> But...it keeps me out of the bars at night!
Now you need something to keep you out of them during the day.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Tracey Rea
|Sub: Re: Kenneth the neo-athei
|Date: 25 Apr 96 18:58:00
EID:2ccf 20999740
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org b4946ee7
TR>ÿ@SUBJECT:Re: Kenneth the neo-atheist
N
TR>I defy you to prove that there is no God...
TR>Are you saying that you were put on this earth (by whatever means) just
to en
BWAHAHAHA....you have addressed this to the most dedicated fundy in
the entire echo!
TR>up as either fertilizer or worm food? What do you believe happens when
you
TR>die? Do you believe in an after-life (of any kind)?
TR>Just because a person cannot 'prove' his beliefs does not make him a
liar -
TR>you don't believe in God but if you can't prove He doesn't exist, does
this
TR>make you a liar?
One cannot prove a negative. This is a fairly well-known rule of
logic that somehow escapes many fundys. You may be one of them.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
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|From: James Moore
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 24 Apr 96 15:57:10
EID:8353 20987f20
MSGID: 1:112/91.0 317ea2d2
PID: BWTG 3.10 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Aaron Boyden <=-
JG> this is what Aaron Boyden had to say to Jim Germiquet about A FAIR &
JG> JUST GOD... > Just because god knows what we are going to do, does
> not mean he causes us
> to do it. Also how does a person come into existence ?
The part about knowing ahead of time I can agree with.
> magic wand ? NO, A man and a woman CHOOSE to put in
> motion the physical
> act of bringing a new person into existence.
This is pure nonsence. If what you are saying is true then that makes
the man and woman God because they create life. That is not the case.
There are many instances in the bible where men and women came together
but no child came as a result. Have you ever heard of infertility?
Who decides who will be fertile and who will not, The AMA? No, God is
in charge of the whole process. God is the father of all spirits the
bible says so he is in charge of who is born and who is not. It is not
a matter of two people choosing to have a child. If God says the woman
will be barren then she will be barren, regardless of how many times
she lies with a man.
WHy blame
> god or even give
> him credit? Where the "spirit" of God comes into play
> is when any person
> chooses to do something. For example God may or may
> not have had a part
> in whether those two people united physically, that
> would be their choice
> no matter if god said "go for it" or "don't do it".
True God gives people free will to do as they choose, but that
doesn't mean that those same people will not give an accounting
when the time comes.
AB> And it is a common idea. A pity that it makes no sense whatever, but
AB> then, most people aren't particularly rational when it comes to
JG> ***********************
JG> I M P O R T A N T
JG> ***********************
JG> A L L who are reading this message, kindly leave a reply as to
JG> whether you think my statement above "makes no sense whatsoever".
That is what I am doing.
JG> What exactly about my message up there makes no sense TO YOU ?!
AB> religion. Assume for the sake of argument that Christianity is true.
I assume from this statement that you don't believe it for a minute.
What do you believe?
AB> Then God is omniscient; when he created the universe that he did, he
AB> thus must have known everything that would result. God is omnipotent;
AB> when he created the universe, he could thus have instead chosen to
AB> create any other universe which is logically possible (such as the
AB> Utopia which Mr. Hardy seems to have given up trying to refute). Thus,
AB> everything about our universe is quite clearly God's fault, because
he
AB> knew it would happen, and, albeit quite indirectly in the case of
AB> current events, brought it about anyway.
This is all quite true and accurate. The conclusions that you derive
from this is, however not true at all. What if you were a part of God
from eternity past and God wanted to give you a choice to leave the
kingdom of God or remain, then he would have to give you somewhere to
go right? Well, here you are. And not only that, it would mean that
it was you that chose to leave the kingdom of God and not mean old
God that drove you out. I am sure that you have heard of the parable
of the prodigal son so you can understand what took place. The prodigal
son was dwelling in his fathers house as you were when he decided to
take his inheritance and leave his fathers house. You made that same
decision when you were born, and just like the prodigal son, you are
spending you substance on yourself and your own satisfaction instead
of on trying to get back to your heavenly father. The difference is that
the prodigal son came to himself, (the saying goes something like that
doesn't it, "He is not himself"?) but apparently you haven't. So yes
you are correct in saying that this universe is God's fault, but it is
the fault of each person that is in this universe for being here. Not
God's fault at all.
JG> All depends on how you perceive it. God's fault ? Or God's credit ?
JG> Life can be wonderful , exciting, beautiful, happy.
JG> It can also be depressing, painful, ugly, boring.
JG> Our choice for the most part. You sound like someone who is given a
JG> a hundred dollars for your birthday, you go out and buy a gun and
JG> shoot yourself in the foot, and then blame god for giving you the
JG> hundred dollars to relieve yourself of the responsibility of what you
JG> did with that hundred dollars.
James Moore
... Just what we need, another religious fanatic!
--- FringeMail 1.11+
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: 6 HIV is 'Harmless' and does NOT 'cause' AIDS
|Date: 23 Apr 96 14:23:00
EID:fe4b 209772e0
MSGID: 1:3615/51 001b6a7d
FR>you fuck up, have the decorum to admit it -- if not to everyone else
FR>then at least to yourself.
JJ> Sputter all you want to, you illiterate asshole. "I and my
JJ> sons" is never correct grammar.
Christian Luv!
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
JG misses the point, which has two aspects. Gentry's claimm is that the
halos are "not near" sources of radioactivity. That can be interpreted
two ways: 1) not near other radioactives _in_the_mine_, and 2) not near
other radioactives _in_the_sample_.
I have taken him to mean "in the sample," since it's obvious, as you and
others have pointed out, that the _mines_ have radioactives in them.
(In fact, in my experience with mines in North Carolina and South
Dakota, no radioactives locatable in the mine means no halos, and
radioactives known in the mine equals halos.)
Now, WRT the samples themselves, we're talking a "not near" that is on
the order of a few thousand to a few tens of thousands of _microns_.
(Millimeters to centimeters.) It is easily understandable that Gentry
can have received halos that, since he did not himself cut them from the
earth, had their source particles excluded by the sampler. (I have halo
samples myself that show no nearby radioactives, but since I know where
they came from (I cut them), I know that there were radioactives nearby
in the rock ---in the pegamtite.)
It takes only one decently large uranium-bearing _particle_, of a size
on the order of a few dozen microns, to provide more than enough
migrating radon, and _all_ of my halo-containing samples either have
those in the same sample itself (sample: a few square inches at most),
or were taken from places where radioactives were known to be present
near the place where I scraped it off the rock.
Notably, in mines like the "Helen Beryl" pegmatite in SD, biotite occurs
in its usual "habit" --swordlike "blades" six to ten inches long by an
inch or so wide by a few millimeters thick. In these cases, the _rim_,
or "edge," of the sword is rife with crystal-blackening radioactives,
while the center of the blade (away from the edges) reveals clear
expanses with no halos. That is, it is possible to take a sample from
such a blade, and by sampling only the clear areas in the center, to
wind up with a sample which has few or no halos, even though the edges
of the blade merely 3/4" away is black with them and black with "other
radioactives."
It should be obvious, thereby, that the only way to be sure there are
"no other nearby radioactive particles" is to take the sample oneself,
and to _check_ around the sample site within, say, a foot or so, to be
sure there're no other radioactives "nearby."
(And as noted, when there are no other radioactives in the mine or
within a few inches or a foot or so-- there are also no halos in any of
the samples from that mine. The "Ed and Bill Swain" mine in NC yeilded
biotite sheets a foot across, but nowhere in any of it is there the
slightest hint of anything radioactive, and nowhere in any of it is
there the slightest hint of any halos --"polonium" or otherwise.)
Gentry may have been using some "polonium" halos that were extracted as
samples from larger biotite, cordierite, or fluorite crystals that HAD
particles of other radioactives along their edges, but which included
none of those particles _in_the__sample_ that he got. It's a reasonably
safe bet, for example, that the Gentry halos obtained from the
collection of Mdme Curie (not THE Curie; her daughter) were carefully
cut by the researcher, OUT OF larger samples, showing thereby only the
"polonium" halo itself, with other 'extraneous' material cut off the
sample. My experience shows it would certainly be easy enough to cut an
interesting halo off of a small piece of biotite, and excluding the
source particle for the radon. Perhaps without realizing the
significance of that action. It is said (J.K. Dickens, ORNL, personal
communication) that Mdme. Curie also did not propose a "naturalistic"
explanation for the "polonium" halos, considering them a mystery.
JG> The point is that there is no evidence of any parent radioactive
JG> elements that could account for the polonium's existence. With
JG> no parent element, the polonium must have been primordial. This
JG> is particularly significant since the half life of polonium 218
JG> is 3 minutes. This is hardly enough time for piece of granite
JG> a few miles thick to cool from a molten state.
This is the point that JG misses. I have _never_ seen a "polonium" halo
that did _not_ have some source of radon (a U-bearing particle)
"nearby," whether that "nearby" is microns, millimeters, centimeters,
feet, or merely "in the same _mine_." I do consider it significant
that, as noted above, I have also _never_ seen a radioactives-LESS piece
of biotite, or sample of it from a radioactives-LESS _mine_, that had
halos of any sort in it.
SA> The rock he used was intrusive, as well, and not primordial.
This is Richard Wakefield's objection, and I don't make any use of it.
Wakefield rightly attacks Gentry's _geological_ claims; I attack his
nuclear _physics_ and/or his mineralogy.
SA> If/when John comes back onto the echo, he'll most likely pick up
SA> from there; he knows more about it than I do. If Rudzinski is
SA> allowed back on, he knows about it, too, though I guarantee he won't
SA> be as polite as John will be.
Now that my book is safe (thanks, apparently, to you, my dear friend), I
can post without risking the book.
Hence, I'm ba-a-a-a-a-ck....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
* All stupid spellings are the result of typographical errors and time.*
... Black holes are where God divided by zero.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
JO>> Well bud for you information, I had a brother that died of this filty
JO>> disease about 1 month ago. He had a choice in life just like your or
JO>> myself. He unfortunally chose death and paid for it. I loved my brother
but
JO>> detested this filthy act he did because I knew it would take him
JO>> away and it did. Anyone who has half a wit about them would condem
JO>> this habit and choose life over death. So don't go trying to make
JO>> me feel guilty for the choices others make. Like me they had a choice.
JO>
JO>Screw you, I don't think you feel sorry/guilty for anyone! You are just
one
JO>of
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22 (OS/2) 10
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE WHA
|Date: 26 Apr 96 13:43:00
EID:d417 209a6d60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2a00365d
AM> KW> I am always amused by fundies who with one breath deny a theory
that
AM> KW> has evidence to back it because it conflicts with their holy writings,
AM> If you have a specific theory in mind, I will be happy to debate
the
AM> merits of it.
Which one do you want to tackle? Most of them have been done to death
in here, with the fantasy literature biblical view left gasping in the
dust. Speaking of in the dust, why not tackle explaining where the
three hydrospheres of water needed to produce the depth of the flood
described in the bible disappeared to? My side of this one is that
there was never any such worldwide flood.
AM> KW> and with the next breath quote a discarded and discredited theory
as
AM> KW> 'proof' of those writings. Some of the stretches of imagination
and
AM> KW> misinterpretations of data required to follow these 'creationist
AM> KW> science' theories are stunning. Andrew, I will reserve my willing
AM> KW> suspension of disbelief for fiction, not for crackpots.
AM> The problem with creation science is the same as theories of us being
AM> here by natural causes, both are fraught with conjecture. Niether
is
AM> testable in a classic scientific method. In fact both are dogmatic.
AM> Many scientists have stretched thier credibility in making theories
AM> of how everything came about without resorting to an intelligent
AM> designer.
Andrew, your comments would indicate that you either lack a working
knowledge of the scientific method, or that you are not aware of the
differences between a postulate, a hypothesis, and a theory. Creation
science postulates a series of events that are not backed up by any
truly solid evidence. To correct this fault, the creationists do try to
stretch and alter the observable evidence to fit their hypothesis.
Unfortunately, that is neither valid or supportable science. Science,
on the other hand, regards trying to tailor the available facts to fit a
hypothesis as a major no-no. If the data doesn't fit the theory, the
theory gets thrown out. Scientists do this a lot. Creationists prefer
to throw out the uncomfortable information.
Unfortunately for those who's faith depends on the bible being truly and
completely accurate, the real, observable world does not match the bible
account.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Dances with Wolves--stomp *YIPE* grrrrrrrrrrr....
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: We've been had!
|Date: 26 Apr 96 13:43:00
EID:da06 209a6d60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7051d698
SA>If there's one thing I respect, it's a damn good jape, especially
SA>one that I get ensared in as well. I don't think I've ever seen an
SA>echo in this much of an uproar. I can't stop laughing - mostly at
SA>myself.
SA>As promised, a formal apology follows this message, and I, on my own
SA>volition, ask Styx for clemency in light of this new information.
SA>John, if you want your book straightaway, let me know; either way,
SA>it will be on its way to you very shortly.
SA>I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm quite happy (and
SA>relieved). This is the closest thing to good news I've had in quite
SA>a while.
I'm sorry, Sue, but I don't agree with you on this one. george
attempted to use the book as leverage to remove John from the echo.
While I am glad that, in the end, george didn't destroy John's property
I still can not condone george's threats to do so if John continued to
take part in this conference. Neither John, nor the other participants,
had any way of knowing that george would decide to send the book on to
you. John, in an attempt to save his property, found himself having to
state that he would remove himself from Holysmoke.
If george's decision was based on a joke, I did not find it funny.
george went past the line, Sue.
I, for one, would prefer that Styx not change his original decision,
and that george remain barred from this echo. Perhaps he will learn
something from this.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Gods: Betcha can't believe in just one.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Genocidal Prophet
|Date: 26 Apr 96 13:43:00
EID:bb7e 209a6d60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1c2c8bcf
EF>Another interesting point. After the battle, when god gets around to
EF>telling Moses how to divvy up the spoils of livestock, gold, and Virgins
EF>(!) and what God's cut will be, we discover that 16 virgins (who were
EF>treated no differently in the narative whatsoever than the livestock)
were
EF>given up as an offering to the Lord.
EF>But since the Mindianites were probably considered less than human, I
EF>guess it wasn't really "human" sacrifice.
Elliott, I could not find this in my KJV. Could you point me to the
chapter and verse (and version, if this is one of the passages 'cleaned
out' of the standard bibles)?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...HIV is a virus; Pat Robertson is a curse from Satan.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Leonard Bernier
|Sub: Matthew 24:36-37
|Date: 26 Apr 96 13:43:00
EID:6ed6 209a6d60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 07af75cc
HYMN TO PAN
--Aleister Crowley
Thrill with lissom lust of the light,
O man, My man--
Come careering out of the night of Pan!
Io Pan! Io Pan! Io Pan!
Come over the sea
From Sicily and Arcady,
Roaming as Bacchus, with fauns and pards
And nymphs and satyrs for thy guards,
On a milk-white ass, come over the sea--
To me! To me!
Come with Apollo in bridal dress--
Shepherdess and pythoness--
Come with Artemis, silken shod,
And wash thy white thigh, o beautiful god
In the moon of the wood, on the marble mount,
The dimpled dawn of the amber fount!
Dip the purple of passionate prayer in the crimson shrine,
The scarlet snare!
The soul that startles in eyes of blue
To watch thy wantonness weeping through
The tangled grove, the gnarled bole
Of the living Tree that is spirit and soul
And body and brain,
Come over the sea--
Io Pan! Io Pan!--
Devil or god, to me, to me
My man, My man!
Come with trumpets sounding shrill, over the hill,
Come with drums low muttering, from the spring;
Come with flute and come with pipe!
Am I not ripe?
I who wait and writhe and wrestle
With Air that hath no boughs to nestle my body,
Weary of empty clasp,
Strong as a lion and sharp as an asp,
Come, O Come!
I am numb
With the lonely lust of devildom!
Thrust the sword through galling fetter,
All Devourer, All Begetter!
Give me the sign of the Open Eye
And the token erect of thorny thigh
And the word of madness and mystery--
O Pan! Io Pan, Io Pan, Pan!
Pan! Pan!
I am awake in the grip of the snake,
The eagle slashes with beak and claw,
The gods withdraw, the Great Beast's come!
Io Pan! I am borne to death on the horn
Of the Unicorn!
I am Pan! Io Pan! Io Pan! Io Pan, Pan!
I am thy mate, I am thy man,
Goat of thy flock, I am gold, I am god,
Flesh to thy bone, Flower to thy rod,
With hoofs of steel I race on the rocks
From solstice stubborn to equinox,
And I rave, and I rape, and I rip, and I rend,
Everlasting, World without end!
Mannequin, maiden, maenad, man,
In the might of Pan!
Io Pan! Io Pan, Pan! Pan!
Io, Pan!
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...I am, therefore I think, I think....
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 26 Apr 96 13:43:00
EID:42a2 209a6d60
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f3786463
SA>-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Sue Armstrong <=-
I didn't get this the first time around.
SA> JG> I have never backhanded any woman in my life. I said that was what
SA> JG> some men used to control women. In fact I was always taught that
you
SA> JG> should never hit a lady. But then of course that was in the days
when
SA> JG> women were ladies not like today when many women are just men without
SA> JG> penises. They have no respect for their own femaleness and wish
they
SA> JG> were men.
No, we don't wish that we were men, and we would love to see more real
men about. Instead we have to deal with pricks like you, a true example
of a man without a penis (psychologically if not physically).
SA> JG> Femaleness is the femininity of women 1) physically as child barers
SA> JG> and nurturers 2) Socially as child nurturers and homemakers 3)
SA> JG> Mentally as a different being than the male of the species, with
SA> JG> different perceptions and outlooks and qualities which are wll
SA> JG> recognized by psychologists and other professionals. This has nothing
SA> JG> to do with not having a say in what goes on. It has nothing to do
with
SA> JG> being inferior to men. This is what has been perceived and so women
no
SA> JG> longer respect the role that their gender best suits them for ,
in
SA> JG> favor of taking on what they see as the more glamorous and superior
SA> JG> role of the male.
The role that our gender best suits us for is that of being a person in
our own right. About the only difference between us, Jim, is that I can
do a few things that you can't. Oh, yes, and you can get a hard on.
Whoops de do. I don't see men as either superior or glamorous, in fact
most of the time I just wish that they would get the hell out of my way
so that I can get on with the interesting and rewarding parts of my
life. If I want to follow up on the comments that you make about women
being bound by their biological roles, I would point out to you that all
women need to do is keep a few superior specimens (you don't qualify,
as intelligence would be one of the things that an ideal specimen would
be selected for) around to supply sperm. No, I don't think that is a
realistic or desirable state of affairs, but sweetcheeks, I will remind
you that to continue the human race I need a man for five minutes and you
need a woman for nine months (more if you can't find a way to feed and
care for your little offspring).
SA> JG> As noted above each of us is free to choose are own lifestyle. The
SA> JG> question is why are so many women choosing to be in essence "men"
?
Because, Jim, there are so many pathetic, scrawny necked, insecure,
whining male assholes like you. Real men are not afraid of women, or
afraid of competing with women. Only the pathological losers like you
whine that the competition isn't sufficiently handicapped.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I just saw God. She's Black, and boy is she pissed!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: animal abortions
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:22:41
EID:95d7 20997ac0
this is what Sue Armstrong had to say to Jim Germiquet about animal abortions...
SA> lone voice in the wilderness, Jim mournfully howled out "animal
SA> abortions"
SA> What the hell is "femaleness"? Not wanting a say in what goes on?
JG> Femaleness is the femininity of women 1) physically as child barers
JG> and nurturers 2) Socially as child nurturers and homemakers 3)
SA> Physcially, there is nothing evident that makes a female a
SA> "nurturer". As human beings, we have the ability to decide whether
Are you a mother ? Have you had any formal early childhood education at
all ? Women nurture a child by breastfeeding. It is also very important
that the child bond with it's mother, especially in the first few
weeks of life. And while this is going on or not children are wanted. We do not need to be baby-machines if
SA> we do not want to any longer.
Of course you dont "need" to be. Women can be a mass murderers if they
CHOOSE to be. But why is being a "mother" seem to be so repulsive to
you ?
SA> Socially, is a bunch of bullshit. The sociological aspect is purely
SA> artificial, imposed only by narrow cultural tradition. Some of us
SA> don't even like children, and can think of nothing more hellish than
OBVIOUSLY ! But then we were talking of the "norm" of human females, not
the abnormal ones. The "natural" ones that wouldn't kill their children
at
birth but that would propagate the species in the "natural" way of
evolution for most primate mothers.
SA> doing nothing more than dusting potted plants all day long. Today's
SA> society allows, at it SHOULD have done long ago, the opportunity to
SA> be so much more than that.
I wonder how many girls feel that way , you know that feeling that their
dads "always wanted a boy" ? It is a shame when that kind of thing
happens and a child grows up with those kind of feelings. But there are
a lot of dysfunctional people out there who could use a good psychologist.
JG> Mentally as a different being than the male of the species, with
JG> different perceptions and outlooks and qualities which are wll
JG> recognized by psychologists and other professionals. This has nothing
SA> Who are also blinded by millenia of tradition. Sorry, but some of
SA> us happen to have been able to break through your narrow cultural
SA> expectations, and are able to broaden our minds beyond the low
SA> standard traditionally imposed on us.
Isn't that a quote from "Charles Manson" ? :-)
JG> to do with not having a say in what goes on. It has nothing to do with
JG> being inferior to men. This is what has been perceived and so women
no
JG> longer respect the role that their gender best suits them for , in
JG> favor of taking on what they see as the more glamorous and superior
JG> role of the male.
SA>
SA> Do you like denying one thing on your left, and then confirming it
SA> on your right? "Role that their gender best suits them for". ROFL!
Hello ? Can you say BREAST !!! Can you say WOMB !!! YES the role that
best suits them !!!
SA> There's no way in hell I'll let society, or even some individual
SA> man, define who I am for me, simply on the basis of my gender. I
SA> have news for you, asshole - I have no wish to ever be a
Me an asshole ? You probably don't know the difference between an asshole
or a vagins because it obviously doesn't matter to you if it goes in you
asshole or your vagina because you obviously dont know the difference
in their purposes.
SA> "housewife"; in fact, my food is useful in cockroach control. I
SA> can't bloody well cook worth a damn. Cleaning? Fuck that noise. I
Oh oh. . . sigh . . . I don't like what I am seeing here at all. Look you
don't have to be a master chef to be a homemaker. I cook many of the meals
at home here, and many is the time I had to throw it out because I put to
much salt in it, or burnt it or some other disaster. You know some times
we have to do things we don't like in order to obtain things we do like.
I usually don't like cleaning anymore than anyone else, but I also don't
like looking at a pile of dishes all day long, I don't like wearing dirty
clothes so I do the wash and I also mow the lawn because I don't like it
up to my knees.
SA> pick up and mop once in a while, if I feel the place needs it.
What are you trying to say here ? That because you don't enjoy cleaning,
you can't be a loving mother and wife ? Hardly. But if that is how you
feel, you are perfectly free to remain single. The question is why women
in general, not you as an individual feel that way ? It only comes down
to
your reason if ALL women have the same reason, and then the question would
be why don't women want to "clean" in general. It may be a "dirty job",
but someone has to do it. Cleaning sewers might be a dirty job for a man,
but someone has to do it. Mowing the law, cleaning the garage , working
on
a broken engine, can all be dirty jobs that men do. Should we just throw
up our hands and say lets the both of us just bake cookies and water the
lawn and leave the "dirty jobs" undone ? Having babies may be no picnic
either, but if all women decided it wasn't worth the trouble, the human
race would soon cease to exist.
Just because things may be difficult or unpleasant, doesn't mean it is
good to just not do them. Sometimes it is necessary. As far as whether
or not you are a great cook, it doesn't matter, cause you still gotta
eat and your family, if you have one.
SA> Usually when I find I can't find anything any more. Otherwise, I
SA> don't worry too much about it. 20 years ago, girls were still being
SA> told not to bother with sciences and maths - I considered this a
SA> stupid constriction and pursued my own education (and read the book
Good for you as an individual, but if women in general do this, what
will the kids turn out like if women keep having them and then
neglecting them in favor of their career?
SA> I have in front of me now, "Grzimek's Encyclopaedia of Evolution",
SA> for the first time at age 8). I am now pursuing a CAREER (yes, an
Umm I don't think you mean 8 ... Should it be 80 ? And certainly at that
age, I would assume that your child bearing and nurturing days might be
well left behind you. But until the kids are grown, I think it is
important that the parents spend their time giving the kids the BEST
upbringing possible which in my humble opinion doees not include throwing
them in a daycare all day and then ignoring them when you get home
because you have home things to do and then you need your own space to
relax after a hard day.
SA> actual CAREER) of my choice, that I feel combines all the best of my
SA> abilities and knowledge into one convenient package. And no man
SA> will dare stand in my way by telling me "get back to the kitchen",
SA> because the first person to say that will find his teeth down around
SA> his feet. I am fully capable of doing this, too. I also understand
SA> semi-automatic firearms, and still remember how to field-strip one,
SA> thanks to a several-year stint as an army cadet.
Oh hooray now you are "man enough" to advocate violence. I would consider
the above to be indicative of a "sick man" let alone a woman and would
advise you to seek psychiatric help before you kill someone.
SA> Women are human beings, with the same wants, desires, dreams and
SA> aspirations as men. They always have had them; now, we merely have
SA> the opportunity to act on these despite the whinings of Neanderthals
SA> like yourself.
No you merely have decided to ignore the womans natural role of
birthing and nurturing, in favor of the mans role , which in this
particular case you have mistaken for knocking teeth and shooting
people.
SA> Not wanting the vote? Not wanting a job to be self-sufficient,
SA> whether one is married or not? Not being happy living on one's
SA> own, without a man's support? Not wanting to speak one's mind?
SA> Not having opinions of one's own? Not wanting an education to
SA> better oneself? What?
JG> Each individual is free to choose how they want to live. Are we meant
SA> Exactly - REGARDLESS of gender.
Exactly, Now the question is , why are so many women now ashamed of that
very important role of motherhood of which they were once so proud ?
It is a question of lost self esteem that they are trying to find ny
being like men. It is a real shame and a great loss to mankind.
JG> to live on one's own ? Then why have different genders and why make
JG> it necessary for them to physically bond in order to procreate ? Why
SA> If someone wants to remain single, it's their business. If someone
SA> doesn't want snotty, bratty little kids running around, that's their
Individually of course you are right. But for a whole generation of
women to forsake their natural role as mothers and abandon their children
?
No wonder our societies morals are going to hell in a handbasket.
JG> have children that must be taken care of for so long before they are
JG> ready to take care of themselves?
SA> are the only type of "parents" one can have? FYI, I was raised by
SA> my mother and grandmother, two very formidable women. No dad. No
SA> brothers. Nada.
No wonder they raised you as a man. I guess they thought it would help
you survive better in life. I am a tad curious about what happened to
their husbands, and if that is why you are so bitter about this "injustice"
of women done by men ?
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: Re: ANIMAL ABORTIONS
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:22:42
EID:0dc0 20997ac0
this is what Becke Jones had to say to Mimi Milstein about ANIMAL ABORTIONS...
BJ> On 17 Apr 96 03:00pm, MIMI MILSTEIN wrote to BECKE JONES:
BJ>> What you are forgetting is that it was the "men" who created
BJ>> these gender roles for women in the first place. Men can be
BJ>> just as capable of these acts (nurturer, homemaker, etc.).
BJ>> Just because women are escaping the restraints that men have
BJ>> put on them in the past doesn't make them any less a
BJ>> woman...
MM> Sorry to contradict you, but I think you forget that zoology is
MM> more guilty than the human male. In ALL classes of mammals will
MM> the female take on the nurturing role. The male may assist,
MM> but he is usually a poor wet-nurse :-)
BJ> But what sets us apart from all other animals is that we have the
BJ> ability to think and rationalize. In OUR species, the male gender has
BJ> just as much natural ability to nurture as the female does.
Yeah and the ability to make nuclear bombs and blow each other up. WHat
man is ABLE to do is not always what is the best or right thing to do.
And the male gender does not have the most important nurturing and
bonding facilty which is BREASTS and certainly while a woman can pump
her breasts, and a man can give the child his 2 oclock feeding, the
suckling process is very important in nurturing a child. But why make
do with substitutes when the real thing is available ?
BJ> True, to a point. But the point of the conversation was that in OUR
BJ> species, the male has created most of the gender roles for the female.
BJ> Yes, we are evolving and breaking out of those molds, and some of the
BJ> more conservative men don't like it too much. I consider myself far
too
BJ> intelligent to be held back by ANY man.
The roles naturally evolved, and unfortunately attitudes about the
importance of those roles and the equality of men and women and those
roles, became twisted and the female roles were maligned and discreditted
by both men and women. Men refused to acknowledge that these roles were
as important as mens roles. Women bought into this idea and as a result
sought freedom to pursue the so called more important role of provider and
career person. Add this to the men who thought because their paycheck had
their name on it, that it belonged only to them, and it makes a volatile
situation, that had to explode into a power struggle.
In the words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along " :-) as "equal"
but "different" genders with equal but different responsibilities ?
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Todd Andlar
|Sub: Re: hi
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:22:41
EID:eeaa 20997ac0
this is what Todd Andlar had to say to Jim Germiquet about hi...
TA> You can't ignore me forever man.
Um... I didn't think I was ignoring you . Sorry if you didn't get
my reply to your message. Like I said the reason I stopped calling
your board was mainly because of Tormentor, I hear he is still leaving
messages that are insulting to me personally on there, which shows that
it wasn't me that started all the B.S. or kept it going. Also I guess I
felt uncomfortable because of the Global War thing.
... Danger, Todd Andlar! Off-topic messages! Danger!
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: 7TH Heaven * Toronto, Ont * (416) 969-9480 (1:250/618)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: You-Know-bomber
|Date: 23 Apr 96 22:17:00
EID:2e4b 2097b220
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 18008ae3
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, J.J.
RM> Yet another destroyed keyboard for which you are
RM> responsible.
RM> I hope you've got insurance for this, 'cause we're starting
RM> a class action lawsuit.
JH> I'm an agent of the International Keyboard Manufacturers Cartel,
You work on commission?
JH> a secret elete group that has controled world affairs since before
JH> the dawn of history.
Ha! Caught you in a lie there. You should make sure that your story
doesn't have any transparent falsehoods in it before you start spreading
it
on international echos. You look very foolish.
Everyone knows that, before the dawn of history there were no
world affairs to be controlled by the keyboard cartel.
JH> We even have a secret handshake.
Oh. In that case I retract that last paragraph. You're obviously on the
up and up.
Take care.
... One planet... One people.... Please!
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07f (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Daffynitions
|Date: 24 Apr 96 19:58:00
EID:fd55 20989f40
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 18008b03
-=> Quoting Ed Mills to ALL <=-
Good morning, Ed.
EM> What's a troll? / trolling?
Trolling is a method of fishing, where you throw out some bait behind your
boat and drag it arround to see what kind of fish might bite. In this
medium, it's a game some people play, where they do pretty much the same
thing. They make some outlandish statement(s) to see who will react.
Once they've figured out what bait gets the reaction they're looking for,
they stick with it.
A troll is the guy who's doing it, or less often, the bait itself.
Usually, it is done under a fake name, because the perpetrator doesn't
want anyone to think that (s)he _really_ believes the silliness that they
are posting. And usually they disappear pretty quickly. There is
at least individual on this forum who is the exception to both of those
rules - he's been trolling here for years, apparently under his real name.
EM> Thanx in advance for all (informative) sarcasm.
You expect sarcasm in this forum?
Take care.
... Folly loves the martyrdom of Fame. - Byron
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07f (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: woids
|Date: 26 Apr 96 15:30:00
EID:4e00 209a7bc0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 181376c2
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Dan.
RM> But that's just a red herring. You didn't claim that this passage
RM> indicated geometric naivite. You claimed this passage was an _error_.
DC> It's an error. After all, your perfect god should be capabable of
DC> providing the authors with a perfect interpretation of reality. It
DC> doesn't even come close.
. At the level of precision indicated by the data given, it is
accurate. And for the purposes at hand, the level of precision given was
appropriate. You continue to try to deny both those points, but yelling
IS NOT just doesn't seem convincing, somehow.
RM> Including extra information is not an error.
DC> That is the error. Either figure by itself would be accurate.
DC> It is when they are placed together does the lack of perfection
DC> of your god really come into its own.
Even when placed together, the two measurements do not constitute an
error, as I have shown over and over, and as you have ignored over and
over.
RM> Rounding to one significant digit is not an error.
DC> Of course it is, a the concept of diameter:circumference requires
DC> a value for Pi to be a bit more than three to be close to accurate.
DC> After all, that is what the concept of geomtry is and the reason
DC> for accertaining the value of Pi in the first place. "Rounding
DC> to 3" does not cut it.
Ah. So this is where the error lies? The error is that those two numbers
do not contain enough precision to allow you to calculate Pi properly?
But the Bible doesn't mention Pi. It's just describing an object.
So they didn't round Pi to 3, as you accuse them, Dan. They rounded the
circumference to 30 and the diameter to 10, which is an appropriate level
of precision for a casual description.
YOU, Dan, YOU are the one who chose to use those two rounded numbers
to calculate Pi. And now you admit that they aren't precise enough to use
in that calculation.
So, YOU, Dan, have admitted that the error is YOURS!
Thank you for making my case for me.
DC> Pi rounded to one significant digit is meaningless when discussing
DC> the concept of the relationship. It is why 22/7 or 3.14 or 3.1416
DC> or 3.14159 are used and have to be used when equating diameters
DC> to circumferences.
If Pi to one digit is useless, why did YOU, Dan, decide to use this
particular data to calculate Pi? It is perfectly clear that the data
has only one significant digit, and you _knew_ that wasn't good enough
for your calculation. So the error is clearly yours and you knew it ahead
of time. By golly, you are going to great lengths to make my point for
me.
Thanks.
DC> God could have easily given the Hebrews the value of Pi to 6 or
DC> more significant digits.
I imagine He could have. But this was not a treatise on Pi. It was a
description of an object. 6 or more significant digits would have been
unnecessary overkill for the purpose at hand.
Just for a moment, let's say the circumference was really 30.41563,
and the diameter was really 9.681596, giving us a ratio of 3.141593 (Pi
to
7 digits). How would you expect to see that rendered in a piece of
descriptive prose given to a bunch of ignorant sheepherders? I'd expect
the author (regardless of who the author is) to round to 30 and 10,
myself, but I'm really interested in what _you_ would expect.
DC> That would have given a lot of weight
DC> to a book written by some ignorant savages to have gotten that
DC> accuracy from a god. Yet, god ignores the possibility of providing
DC> a great sign and comes up with Pi=3. IOW, they and god where wrong.
Oh. So now the error is that God passed up the opportunity to demonstrate
His existence to you mathematically.
Could you please decide what the "error" is here? So far you've claimed
that it is getting pi wrong, including too much data, not including enough
precision, and missing an opportunity to convince you.
To a casual bystander, this makes it appear that you are starting to
squirm.
Take care.
... In the long run men hit only what they aim at. (Thoreau)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07f (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BADMOUTH
|Date: 26 Apr 96 21:10:24
EID:97bb 209aa940
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 896B4399
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-> On (21 Apr 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
->
-> AS> I'm not trying to "lure" you into church. I'm honestly
-> AS> curious. You criticized Mike for not issuing such an
-> AS> invitation. Well, I read the original statement too, and I
-> AS> merely read it as a slight approval of Spong in comparison to
-> AS> other Christians. Was I wrong? Should I have extended any
-> AS> sort of invitation or encouragement? I thought it would be
-> AS> too inconsistent with your past positions, and might offend
-> AS> you, given your outspoken disbelief, to do so. Was I wrong?
->
-> MB> Let's just say that it is totally outside Michael's PROFESSED
-> MB> belief system to not at least ignore the statement except in the
-> MB> context of filtering any future communications through the
-> premise
-> MB> that it just MIGHT BE what I was considering. To do less is to
-> MB> show blatant disregard for the instructions that you are to try t
-> MB> bring all people to your god. True? He hasn't a clue as to the
-> MB> REAL meaning of his Great Commission, at the very least, and, tha
-> MB> being the case, he hasn't a clue as to what a true Christian woul
-> MB> be like.
->
-> AS> Well...if he doubts that Spong is a True Christian, whatever tha
-> AS> should he encourage you to follow what he considers a false lead
->
-> And, the point is, he has no doubt that HE'S the one with a fix
-> on exactly what that is. That's the whole point. He is setting
-> himself up as judge, jury, and executioner. Hubris.
->
The point is, I was dead wrong to have rebuffed Marilyn's interest, and
I've said so about thirty times. Obviously, I had one chance and one
chance only.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: [INSERT DRIVEL HERE]
|Date: 26 Apr 96 20:48:00
EID:5cf3 209aa600
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3a949323
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0003850c
PID: FM 2.02
> SM>> Only if you ignor everything spiritual
> SM>
> SM>"The Spiritual" is another cop-out you believers use.
> SM>
> SM>Fact is, we all live in ONE reality. The real world, that which answers
> SM>to the laws of science and always has, is all there is.
> That is the problem that we are discussing, what is the true
> reality. Even in the "ONE reality" created by science, not everything
> can be totally explained.
False. Given enough time for study, science eventually DOES obtain explanations
for everything. And such explanations are ALWAYS superior to those using
cop-outs like "the spiritual", "God done it", etc.
> There are may things that science has
> happened upon that defies explaination and are only hinted at using
> tenitive theories that might explain what is observed, but these are
> incomplete theories, they do not completely account for the observed and
> does not predict.
Name some. (You have yet to in this entire message.)
> But, let's look at it another way, if we except as "reality" only
> those things that we can touch, measure, collect, then if something
> comes along that does not fit with our "reality", we will either ignore
> it, doubt it, or try to explain it in physical terms to make it fit.
"Try" is a misnomer here. All such things CAN BE and ARE explainable in
physical terms, provided that any aspect of the phenomena in question really
exist at all outside of imagination.
> Take the case of thinking. Science is trying to understand the thought
> process in the physical sense in order to duplicate it, but the more
> they learn, the less they know. Will they ever be able to understand it?
Yes. You obviously dis-understand the self-correcting practice of science,
preferring, instead, to say "God done it".
Unfortunately, this isn't evidence that any "God" really exists. It is merely
evidence of a bunch of believers' ignorance and laziness.
>
> Possible enough to make a machine that will duplicate some of the ideas
> of though. Now how about what makes something alive? Most scientist
> doubt if they will ever, except for a cloning type process, be able to
> reproduce life.
Define "life". Do not use anything not repeatably demonstrable to exist
to disbelieving observers.
>Now we can touch on what is normally called the spiritual (or maybe
> you would prefer the Olcult) side of reality. To your reality based
> only on science, this is bunk,
It IS bunk.
> but some things have been observed and
> documented to support the existance of ghost and spirits, and not just
> be paranormal investagators but by well know scientist.
Please provide the references to peer-reviewed scientific journals to back
this claim. The Institute for Creation Research, its trainees and its principals,
do not qualify. Neither does __Reader's Digest__:
> The power of
> pray is being investagated and in an artical outlined in the Readers
> Digest, a Medical Researcher has found up to a 50% better recovery rate
> for those that are prayed for (with out the knowledge of the person)
> over those not prayed for.
__Reader's Digest__ is well known to have a conservative, believing Christian
agenda in its reporting. Its reports, therefore, cannot be trusted to be
objective. In fact, it can be trusted NOT to be objective.
This claim is repeatedly made by believers. It can NOT be reliably duplicated,
a requirement for establishment as fact.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: A Believer's Ultimate Victim Is Himself. (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: [INSERT DRIVEL HERE]
|Date: 26 Apr 96 21:00:01
EID:5cf3 209aa800
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 3a949325
REPLY: 1:3615/51 0003850c
PID: FM 2.02
> What is "real" has been debated for centuries. We can try to define
> reality as only those things that fit into the Physical world, but in
> that case, and this happens every day, we have to filter out those
> things that do not fit. Each of us has a personal reality, and each of
> us provides our own filters. Some of us try to open up our reality to
> include more, and of course these still go through filters to fit our
> world view. Some may see angels, some demons, others a wind and
.....to those living in the real world, nothing at all -- because that's
all that's there.
> SM>Yeppers, I discount 'em. They're ALL fake.
> SM>You might want to check out __The Faith Healers__ by James "The Amazing"
> SM>Randi.
> SM>Again: ALL faith healing is fraudulent. ALL OF IT.
> I agree that 99.99% of the so called faith healings, expecially
> those on TV are fack. I was like you and believed 100 % was, but, and
> you don't have to believe it, I experienced a physical healing 3 years
> ago. There are x-rays and doctor reports to prove it at the Washington
> County, Iowa, Hospital. Now, I have a more opened mind.
In short, you now believe in the lie euphemized as "faith".
I'd lay you any odds you care to mention that the REAL credit for your healing
is due to medical science, not imaginary superfriends.
> I never said that your ancestors had to believe or even that God had
> to exist, I stated, and quite correctly, that the moral system of Europe
> and America had been influenced by the bible. This is the type of
> system that your great-great-grandmother grew up under, and where she
> learned her morals from. Look sometime at the type of school books used
>
> in the 17-19th century, they were based on the bible.
Immaterial. OUR ethical system came completely from reason. No god in any
of it.
> SM>> That the Golden Rule has not be practiced by all societies
> SM>> such as the Spartans, Chinese, Islomic society, as well as such social
> SM>> animals as the apes shows it is not ingrain upon us.
> SM>
> SM>More lies, Larry??
> SM>
> SM>The Golden Rule is part of the Quraan; it is indeed part of Islamic
> practice.
>
> Quraan, based on the first 5 books of the bible, Islam decended from
> Abraham. I looked up Jesus in the Quraan the other night and it did say
> that He was born of Mary by God, that He was also a prophet of God, but
> that Islamics should kill anyone that believes that Jesus is the Son of
> God. So, apparently their Golden Rule does not include everyone, only
> those that are Islamic.
Just like ALL of Christianity teaches the exact same thing regarding those
who aren't born Christians.
>
> SM>The Chinese had it as part of their moral and ethical code before Abraham
> or
> SM>his imaginary godlet had ever been heard of anywhere.
>
> Check your dates, Chinese Society is not that old.
It's several thousand years older than ANY Semite society.
>
> SM> The Spartans also held to it within their own society; they simply
> SM> ignored it without, just as Abraham's descendants have to this day.
> Spartans, Dated 800 BC - 300 BC - Abraham dated 1800 BC.
Ussher's chronology is as full of shit as a Christmas goose. And there were
Lacedemonians (Spartans) as far back as 2000 BCE or so.
> The problem comes down to a belief system.
Bullshit. I have no beliefs.
Debunked without consideration.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: A Believer's Ultimate Victim Is Himself. (1:128/203.666)
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|From: JOE SHEDLOCK
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: Molly Ivins/60 Minutes
|Date: 26 Apr 96 21:24:00
EID:3d68 209aab00
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Katherine Wintersnight on 04-25-96 20:18 <=-
JS> On (24 Apr 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Jim Staal...
KW> I understand that the most successful treatment to date is no longer
KW> considered to be splitting open the penis and implanting silicon rods
KW> (the never ending hard-on) or inflatable bladders (don't even think
KW> about a blow out) with a pump.
It was nice to talk with you the other night on IRC #holysmoke.
Speaking of Molly Ivins, she is joining the "60 Minutes" crew starting
Sunday as a regular commentator or something. So you should be able
to see her if you want.
She has two books that I guess are collections of her columns.
_Nothin' But Good Times Ahead_ and _Molly Ivins Can't Say That, Can
She?_.
... This tagline is made just for Katherine Wintersnight
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
* Origin: Silver Xpress Mail System (1:116/3000)
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SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 116/3000 32 62 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Science vs. Faith
|Date: 26 Apr 96 18:03:00
EID:c23f 209a9060
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815b9d
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "Science vs.
Faith"
JG>> Do you have any more to add?
RB> Tidy Bowl man............skeleton made of porcelain
JH> Good Humor man skeleton made from popcicle sticks.
JH> Peeking man Primordial vouyer.
JH> Java man Earliest known coffee drinker.
JH> LaBrea man lived in pits.
JH> Egg man Walrus, probably afflicted with
JH> juju eyeball.
Bread man Actually female. Suffered from yeast infection.
Tally man Tallied me bananas.
Culligan man Drowned in hard water.
Wolf man Ape-like and very hirsute.
Snow man Cold-blooded.
Sailor man Pop-eyed.
Hey mon Found in Jamaica.
Nowhere man Lived in Nowhere Land.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... You can never have too much infinity.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 25 Apr 96 09:22:01
EID:0c5c 20994ac0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815b9e
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "1 god plus 1
god plus"
EM>> Yes. The best kind, IMHO, is King's brand *hot* style.
EM>> Open it over the sink, the fermentation pressure in the
EM>> jar makes a small mess. Mmmm!
SA> You can get it prepackaged?
JH> Oh yes. Want me to send you some?
Um. Very generous, thank you .. but I don't think I'm that
desperate for food yet. :)
EM>> I draw the line at chinese preserved eggs, though. Ever
EM>> try those? Auuugh! :(
SA>
SA> If you mean 1,000 year old eggs, no. I don't think I'd
SA> want to, either, as I know how they're prepared. Yuck.
JH> They're pickled in either lye or acid. Lead and/or mercury were
JH> also used traditionally in the pickling solution. I've never
JH> tried them, but just reading the list of ingredients on the package
JH> makes me shudder. While being pickled, the eggs would be burried in
JH> a manure pile for warmth. I assume that ovens are used for the ones
JH> I see in the market.
Lye or acid? Eep! I wasn't aware of that part. I was, however,
aware of the burying for three months or so part, but I thought they
just hardboiled them and then buried them. Until they turned a nice
light green where the "whites" should be and a nice dark green in
the yolk.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... All Scottish food is based on a dare.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 25 Apr 96 09:28:02
EID:f014 20994b80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815b9f
A lone voice in the wilderness, Marilyn mournfully howled out "A FAIR &
JUST GOD"
AS> (And yes, I am aware that too much fishing too clumsily could
AS> similarly harm the ecosystem. But the oceans, being larger than the
AS> land and the
AS> lifeforms more mobile, would make a good first choice.
MB> Then you apparently think that the only countries suffering long-term,
MB> endemic famine are coastal countries. You're dead-assed wrong. The
MB> REAL problems are far away from any coastal waters.
Besides the fact that, as every Newfie knows, the seas are no
longer the "inexhaustable bounty" we were taught to believe it was
in school even 20 years ago. There quite simply isn't enough left
to "feed the world" and what's left is probably so toxic it'll kill
you sooner than later if you try to live off of it. The oceans are
overfished and even sharks are becoming threatened with extinction,
thanks to shark-fin soup and the shark steak craze. Ever notice how
Red Lobster serves much smaller lobster tails than they used to?
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... If you call me insane again, I'll eat your *other* eye!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: face value
|Date: 25 Apr 96 11:41:03
EID:b0b2 20995d20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba0
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "face value"
SA> Good point! After all, the Jews do celebrate their
SA> holidays relating to other "miraculous" events (such as the
SA> burning of a lamp of oil for 8 days straight, and the
SA> Passover); why not the parting of the Red Sea? Surely the
SA> escape from Egypt would be a cause for celebration.
JH> The Passover IS the celebration of the escape from Egypt.
I thought it referred specifically to the passing-over of the
scourge that killed all the first-born sons of Egypt.
JH> But as to fixing the location of where they made the sea
JH> crossing, nope. Compare any two maps that show the path
JH> the Israelites took and the chances are very good that they
JH> will not agree. They can't even agree on where Mount Sinai
JH> is. Though modern cartographers name the highest mountain
JH> in the Southern part of the penisula Mount Sinai, there is
JH> no real consensus on this point amoung theologians.
JH> Further, if we look at the description of Mount Sinai in
JH> Exodus:
JH> 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because
JH> the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof
JH> ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount
JH> quaked greatly.
JH>
JH> ... we get what seems like a very good description of an
JH> active volcano. However, there are no volcanos (active or
JH> otherwise) on the Sinai penisula. But there are some not too
JH> far away over in Arabia (the land of Midian, where Moses hung
JH> out with Jethro and his daughters).
JH> The more you try to reconcile the Exodus account with physical
JH> geography the more you end up with the impression that Moses
JH> and company didn't have the slightest idea of where they were.
I doubt they did either. If they did, they wouldn't have spent 40
years putzing around in the middle of nowhere.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "Complexity is based on simplicity compounded" - Willard Young
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: face value
|Date: 25 Apr 96 11:43:04
EID:b0b2 20995d60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba1
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "face value"
SA> :) Well, with sentience comes curiosity. Without hands,
SA> the best one can do is sniff around, and be done with it (if
SA> fear of the unfamiliar can be overcome, that is.)
JH> ... after pissing on it.
No, no, no. First you gotta sniff around to see who was there
before, and otherwise check it out. THEN you piss on it, and sniff
again to make sure that the offending odour is all covered up.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "I want to hear you scream in pain." "Play some Rap"
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Genesis problems [1/4]
|Date: 25 Apr 96 11:47:05
EID:ee4b 20995de0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba2
A lone voice in the wilderness, The mournfully howled out "Genesis problems
[1/4]"
TR> ourselves to conclude that the flood is a fairy tail, and since we must
Fairies have tails? Prehensile or tufted?
:)
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... If dandelions were hard to grow, they'd be welcome in any lawn.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Inflation
|Date: 25 Apr 96 11:53:06
EID:523a 20995ea0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba3
A lone voice in the wilderness, Marilyn mournfully howled out "Inflation"
SA> I still say "fuck inflation". Gimme a job; I don't care if it
SA> makes a dollar worth a penny less, because we'll all be
SA> getting a penny raise, anyway due to unions, COLA, and
SA> legislated minumum-wage raises.
MB> You wouldn't say "fuck inflation," if you were attempting to live
MB> out your old age on your savings, avoiding a handout from the
MB> government. . . .
Like .. a pension plan, that one has been paying into during one's
working life, and which should be indexed in the first place? (ie,
you get back the value of what you paid in, not the straight dollar
amount.)
Relying on savings is also a very bad idea. Things come up, and you
can't always be sure that your carefully worked-out budget is going
to hold for who-knows-how-many years. I wouldn't WANT to even TRY
to live on nebulous "savings".
As for retirement in general, one has to work before one can retire.
The concept is almost meaningless to folks out of work for a number
of years, or doomed to low-paying itinerant jobs. You work until
you die.
MB> And, as I said at the beginning of this conversation, I was
MB> merely trying to point out to her that if the economist in
MB> question was saying that "100 percent employment" was a bad
MB> thing, he was telling the truth. The only time in recorded
MB> history that I know of where it has occurred is in Soviet
MB> Russia, and I doubt if anybody wants a repeat of that little
MB> deadly experiment.
SA> Oh? I wouldn't mind it. In fact, it's going to happen here
SA> (under a right-wing government). Beginning this autumn, I and
SA> folks in my position will be forced to work 17 hours a week
SA> at whatever we are told to do, if we want our cheques (on top
SA> of the usual 40-60 contact-per-month job search sheet). We'll
SA> be doing stuff like picking trash, cleaning up the toxic mess
SA> that industry leaves in the river (heaven forbid they
SA> actually hire people to do this at a decent wage!), feeding
SA> deer, etc. Will this be considered "employment"? No, of
SA> course not. We'll still be unemployed, and still technically
SA> on welfare - although in that sense, politicians are on
SA> "welfare", or rather "workfare", as well. And we'll likely
MB> You have just defined the differece between right-wing socialism
MB> and left-wing socialism. Right-wing socialism doesn't think you're
MB> working, unless you're making $50 a year; left-wing socialism
MB> thinks you're working, even if you can't possibly live on the
MB> "wages" it is paying. They are both wrong. FULL EMPLOYMENT means
After rent, I'm living on about $250/mo or so (that includes the
typing I do; I am fortunately allowed an income top-up to a certain
level. Otherwise, I would be left with $195/mo. That seems like a
lot, but equals only the amount I'd be getting if I was actually
working part-time at minimum wage.)
MB> that people are free to move from one job to another for whatever
MB> reason they find the risk of starvation acceptable. BUT it still
MB> implies there will be some people who are, at any given moment,
MB> unemployed, by whatever definition of the term.
"Free to move from one job to another" is meaningless when there are
no other jobs to go to .. the situation here now is, you better damn
well keep your job, because you ain't going to find another one -
if you do quit, you'll be fighting with too many other people for
too few positions. Seeing as how it's a buyer's market, you'd
better have a really impressive resume with completely up-to-date
educational requirements in exactly the courses they want, or you
won't find anything. Even waitressing in a bar requires a diploma
from a bartending course here.
MB> The real reason we are having such a hard time communicating on
MB> this topic is because I know the terms in the sense that the
MB> experts on economics use them, and you only have a familiarity
MB> (unfortunately) with the terms in the sense that the politicians
MB> have corrupted to. More's the pity.
"Full employment" should mean just that - everyone is doing
_something_ in order to earn their cheque. What the heck could be
wrong with that? Inflation? Phht. If inflation is so bad, and is
caused by people working, then to save the economy, everyone should
be quitting their jobs so that inflation doesn't occur. I don't see
how that would do any good, however. A more sensible solution would
be to cut the wages of grossly overpaid folks like politicians,
entertainers, athletes, CEOs, etc, so that everyone else could be
put to work and the money supply would stay about the same.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." - Napoleon
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: JOHNSON SMITH CATALOGUE
|Date: 25 Apr 96 12:12:07
EID:e750 20996180
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba4
A lone voice in the wilderness, Sean mournfully howled out "JOHNSON SMITH
CATALOGUE"
> SM> Try having that attitude while not living in an obscenely large urban
> SM> area. I DARE you!! :-)
> Well, Sean...WE did it for 22 years in an area that has got to have the
> lousiest public transportation in the world. The saying 'you can't get
> there from here' originated in Charleston.
SM> Evidencing that Charleston is, in fact, an obscenely large urban area.
SM> If it's big enough to HAVE the "you can't get there from here"
SM> problem, it qualifies.
SM> :)
I suppose it depends on one's definition of "obscenely large urban
area". Windsor is only about 200,000 in population, and is spread
out over perhaps 10 miles on the east-west axis. I don't drive,
either (can't afford a car, so there's no point in getting a license
just yet) and the bus system is lousy. When I was taking my martial
arts course, I had to walk another mile and a half from the end of
the bus route to get there.
I stayed in Ottawa for a time; that also is a relatively small city,
but it has communities spread out all over the Ottawa Valley.
Fortunately, they have a decently reliable bus system, especially
given the length of the routes, though it was kind of expensive
(about $2.50 or so, at a time when the Toronto system was only 95
cents .. Toronto being what I consider an obscenely large urban
area. Actually, I consider Toronto to be just plain obscene, but
that's beside the point. )
Where I stayed in Australia was really ... spread out and
comparatively sparsely populated as well, and when venturing out
alone (especially if I wanted to go into Newcastle proper (Newcastle
being no bigger than Windsor)) I had to take the bus there, too ...
luckily, their bus system is .. well, it's Ok, but it's not the
greatest. I waited about an hour and a half once for the bus I
needed to take me back to Marks Point. Given the size of the area
that the Newcastle bus system serves, though, there were a helluva
lot of busses to service the myriad of different routes. Of course,
if Adam had still lived in Tullamore, that would have been a
different kettle of fish altogether. Though, the lack of a bus
system entirely wouldn't have been a problem, since there was
nowhere to go out there, anyway. And you could walk across town in
5 minutes. Gotta love those outback communities.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "It's over to you, Adolf, and I'll catch you all later at the BBQ."
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:10:08
EID:2ff0 20997140
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba5
A lone voice in the wilderness, Ed mournfully howled out "1 god plus 1 god
plus"
SA> You can get it prepackaged? The only time I've ever heard of the
SA> stuff was on a MASH episode (Frank though the Viet .. errrr Koreans
SA> were planting bombs all over the place, when they were merely
SA> burying pots of cabbage for kim chee.)
EM> "Good god, man! You've struck coleslaw!" were the approximate
Ha! Yeah, something like that. :)
EM> words of Hawkeye at the end of that episode, as I recall. Can you
EM> believe that there are people running for public office who
EM> weren't born yet when it aired? Mostly Young Republicans, I fear.
Eee. I find that difficult to conceive. Of course, I find it
difficult to conceive that people my age are actually running for
office. Or that I'm actually that old. One or the other. :)
EM> Fortunately, like Hunter Thompson, I'm comfortable with being a
EM> member of a doomed society. :)
Heh. Must be nice. :)
EM> Before abandoning the subject, I must pay homage to Colonel
EM> Flagg:
EM> Before I leave, you have to close your eyes.
EM> CRASH! tinkle tinkle...
EM> (moan)
Ah, yes. Col. Flagg, superspy. :)
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Just in..UFO takes Mulroney...More after the Hockey game.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:13:09
EID:ce1b 209971a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba6
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "1 god plus 1
god plus"
DC> I've had Haagen-Dasz before, and wasn't really overwhelmed by it.
DC> It's good, but I think it's over priced...
SA> That's part of the "I'm going to spoil myself" experience, though.
DC> That's true... Tht's why I get Bryer's every so often.
I don't think they sell Bryer's here. :(
DC> yeast and eggs. Have you ever tried an eggless bread?
DC> Ever have a French or Italian bread? There's no eggs in them.
SA>
SA> Seriously? I've had bread from Italian bakeries, but how they're
SA> cooked I have no idea.
DC> That's "baked", not "cooked"!
I TOLD you that I'm no good in the kitchen!
DC> If they are true to their name, there should be nothing but flour,
DC> water, yeast and salt in them, in that order
Hm. Never usually check ingredients lists. It's safer that way.
SA> Lemony? Never really noticed, but perhaps that's what makes it so
SA> sharp.
DC>
DC> I think that that's the difference... Miracle Whip has an acidic
SA> Too strong for you, eh? :)
DC> Care to do a side-by-side taste test, using home made horseradish
DC> as the condiment? If you're not used to it, do remember to bring
DC> 2 or three boxes of tissues!
Look, mate, if you feed me horseradish, I'll feed
you Vegemite.
SA> You, too? (though in my case it was Miracle Whip ..) :)
DC> only made catsup sandwiches with a large dose of Worchestershire
SA> Ketchup and Worcestershire sauce? Eep! I hope, at least, you had
SA> the good taste to use Lea&Perrins. :)
DC> You mean to say that someone has conterfeited Wo'steh'sheer sauce?
I imagine there are no-name/store brands out there. I for one
wouldn't touch the things.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Crime doesn't pay? Does that mean my job is a crime?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
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PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:59:10
EID:9f6f 20997760
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba7
A lone voice in the wilderness, Michael mournfully howled out "A FAIR &
JUST GOD"
RM> Sittin' there next to him on the Group "W" bench?
MH> Playin' with the pens. ;)
RM> 'Till the seargent came over and said:
RM> (Your turn ).
MH> It's actually pretty easy:
MH> "And said, Kids, this piece of paper's got 47 words, 37 sentences, 58
MH> words and we want to know the details of the crime (mumble mumble
MH> mumble) th' 'restin' off'cer's name (mumble mumble mumble)"
An' he went on for 45 minutes and we didn't understand a thing he
said.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR AND JUST GOD
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:13:11
EID:97b4 209979a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba8
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "A FAIR AND JUST
GOD"
SA> McDevil's! ROFL! I'll have to add that to my list of disparaging
SA> terms for McDogfood's, along with "Raunchy Ronnie's" (my personal
SA> favourite). :)
AS> The worst thing about having small kids is that most of them would
AS> rather eat at McDonald's than have a meal cooked by a Parisian
AS> chef...
Isn't grease one of the four food groups?
AS> If you've never read Dante's DIVINE COMEDY, especially the
AS> Inferno, you might do so. The punishments are more graphic and
AS> earthly than you might think, and thus more disturbing.
SA> I did read it, a number of years ago. Yes, it was quite disturbing,
SA> although with the comprehensive notes in the back, it was kind of
SA> amusing, too .. seems he found rather fitting punishments for most
SA> of the more public figures of the time, as I recall.
AS> Yeah...interstingly, some were still alive, including the Pope he
AS> put in Hell, as I recall.
Apparently, which must have made it even funnier to the folks
reading at the time, not unlike projecting where a current president
is going to go.
SA> variable, anyway. And I can finally eat those damn frozen "hash
SA> browns" [actually, like the sort Raunchy Ronnie's serves] that have
SA> been sitting in my freezer for the past couple of months. They're
SA> terrible microwaved, but quite edible with the new appliance. Gee,
SA> two days have gone past with good things actually happening. I'm
SA> impressed, and in possibly the best mood I've been in for months.)
AS> Glad to hear it. You deserve some good breaks.
Thanks. It did tighten my finances a bit, but when you need things,
you don't have a lot of choice in the matter. Now if the weather
would just start being nice on the days I go out to look for work,
rather than cold and rainy/snowy, I'd be all set. At the very
least, I could get a chance to shake this cold.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Alien: (n) A Being Who Travels Great Distances To Molest Cattle.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: a just god?
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:19:12
EID:639b 20997a60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815ba9
A lone voice in the wilderness, Joanna mournfully howled out "a just god?"
FR> "She's not REALLY dead! No, she's with Jeh-heeeeee-zeus now!"
FR>
FR> Or most likely:
FR>
FR> "Hey! The gods saved thousands on the ground from getting crashed into!"
JA> That little girl is dead beacuse her parents were stupid enough to
JA> let a seven year old kid fly a plane. That doesn't have anything to
JA> do with any god. It 'cause the kid had stupid parents.
That's beside the point (considering that god(s) are supposed to
protect the innocent, but nevertheless ..)
I never did understand the rationale in letting a 7 year old having
a pilot's licence. A kid has to wait until they're 16 to get a
driver's license, but they can FLY? What sort of stupid law is
this? What possible logic lets a 7 year old fly an AIRPLANE? My
_daughter_ is 7 years old - there's no way in the world I'd let her
even TRY to get a pilot's license until she was at least old enough
to drive a flippin' CAR.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Devoted to the study of cat bathing as a martial art.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
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PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:24:13
EID:1fa9 20997b00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815baa
A lone voice in the wilderness, Rick mournfully howled out "A FAIR & JUST
GOD"
RM> Sittin' there next to him on the Group "W" bench?
MH> Playin' with the pens. ;)
RM> 'Till the seargent came over and said:
RM> (Your turn ).
MH> "And said, Kids, this piece of paper's got 47 words, 37 sentences, 58
MH> words and we want to know the details of the crime (mumble mumble
MH> mumble) th' 'restin' off'cer's name (mumble mumble mumble)"
RM> ...and talked for 45 minutes and nobody ('ceptin that Hardy guy ;-)
RM> understood a word that he said...
But we had fun fillin' out the forms and playin' with the pencils on
the bench there ..
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "Madder than Mad Jack McMad at last year's Mr. Madman contest!"
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER WAS A CHRIS
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:30:14
EID:caa3 20997bc0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bab
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "ADOLPH HITLER
WAS A CHRIS"
JS> Oh, Al...don't give Fred _too_ much credit. :) There has been a Friday
JS> evening or two when he was just as 'rabid' as here...
I finally got mIRC to work right (I must have had a corrupted copy,
AS> but at Lynda's suggestion I downloaded the newest version from the
AS> mIRC page on the Web, and it worked fine the first time.) so I'll be
AS> on #holysmoke more often...
I got a chance to look through that a couple of days ago .. I asked
Mark (Hogan) to swing through there as I was watching over his
shoulder. Is it always that laggy? It seemed really .. dead.
People were there (Ryan, cattybtch (Judith?) Damocles (Fred?) and a
couple of other names, but there wasn't a heck of a lot going on ..
Mark's suggestion was that the connections were really lagged so we
gave up.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Bad or missing keyboard - press F1 to continue.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 25 Apr 96 17:29:15
EID:fb25 20998ba0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bac
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "ALLEGORY"
AS> Probably. And I'm sure some elephant ivory could be whittled to the
SA> Assuming that the buyer was too stupid to spot the fact that it was
SA> indeed carved ..
AS> There's that...
Mm. A narwhal horn would be more believable, since it's already
long and curlicued and straight. Even an oryx horn has a slight
curve to it.
AS> right shape. But a narhwhal's tusk would look directly like it. (Or
AS> for that matter, a Rhino's horn could also be shaped correctly..)
SA> Except that a rhino's horn isn't really "horn", and would probably
SA> be too short to pass for a unicorn's horn.
AS> They could say it was a young unicorn...
I suppose; people bought some really far-out stuff back then.
SA> On the other hand, I saw a picture of the alleged Mokele Mbemba that
SA> some locals had drawn in National Geographic last year, and BOY, did
SA> that rhino have a long "horn"! :)
AS> Hmmm. The way you said that...are you referring to what protrudes
AS> from his HEAD, or elsewhere?
ROFL! No, from his head. The thing looked like a rhinoceros with a
ridiculously long horn on its nose. Why anyone thought it was a
"dinosaur" given that depiction though, is beyond me. One of my
kids did mistake a toy rhino for a "sort of dinosaur" but was
quickly corrected by his older siblings. So I can see perhaps the
not-so-well educated natives confusing the concept of a "dinosaur"
for this beast (assuming anyone had mentioned it, if only because
they might not know what a dinosaur is) but I can't see anyone else
doing so.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "Maybe the universe IS fuzzy." --- Hubble Telescope Scientists
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 25 Apr 96 17:38:16
EID:2653 20998cc0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bad
A lone voice in the wilderness, Judith mournfully howled out "animal abortions"
SA> Physcially, there is nothing evident that makes a female a
SA> "nurturer". As human beings, we have the ability to decide whether
JB>
JB> Sure there is, Sue. We've got the tits with which to feed the little
JB> rug rats. Except that Germy would probably consider anyone who took
JB> such a natural approach to be 'gross' and 'immoral'.
Being able to squirt milk out does not a "nurturer" make, at least
in the sense Germy's likely thinking of. Yes, it's necessary for
mammals to get them to the point where they're developed enough to
eat solid food, but I don't see that as making the mother
automatically some sort of mystical font of total complete nuturing.
Keep in mind that many mammal mothers do kill any youngsters that
are deformed or whatnot; doesn't sound all that "nurturing" to me.
Human moms also have been known to kill unwanted babies (and I'm not
talking foetuses here. I'm talking about the tots abandoned in
dustbins because she simply cannot take care of it for whatever
reason.) And I resent guys like him trying to define me into some
role I clearly do not fit into simply because I have "tits". And
when my own kids were of that age, they got the fruits of modern
technology - formula. I didn't want them groping at certain areas
for two or three years and having to be tied so completely to them
because they wouldn't take a damn bottle. (A cousin of mine
breast-fed, and her kid always made a display - even at 3 years old
- of grabbing her and demanding "breast". Yes, I found that rather
distasteful in public. There was no way in hell I was going to
become a milking machine. As far as I was concerned, the La Lechers
could shove their mystical crap pamphlets up where the sun don't
shine. My private areas are mine, and NO ONE demands _anything_ of
them. I don't care HOW old they are.)
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "What's he going to do, borrow a cup of sugar from Satan?" - MST3K
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: ANIMAL ABORTIONS
|Date: 25 Apr 96 17:52:17
EID:2b42 20998e80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bae
A lone voice in the wilderness, Jim mournfully howled out "ANIMAL ABORTIONS"
BJ> What you are forgetting is that it was the "men" who created these
BJ> gender roles for women in the first place. Men can be just as capable
BJ> of these acts (nurturer, homemaker, etc.). Just because women are
BJ> escaping the restraints that men have put on them in the past doesn't
BJ> make them any less a woman...
BJ> Becke
JG> Give me a break. A man does not have a WOMB or BREASTS necessary to
Give ME a break. You show yourself to be more and more stupid with
every passing post.
JG> bare and feed children. And you as a woman MUST know the value of
So, the female is the one who goes through the danger of pregnancy.
Big whoop. Doesn't make her some sort of mystical font of
nurturing.
JG> breast feeding in the bonding of a child to its mother and how
I know the "value" of it - it's a bunch of malarkey foisted upon
worried new moms by the La Leche League.
JG> important it is for babies to bond, if the are to thrive and be
JG> healthy. Men just as capable ? Hardly.
Bonding is more than sucking tit. An emotional bond can happen
without anything of that nature occurring. Simply holding or being
with the infant is enough. Otherwise, ducklings could never bond
with their mothers (or anything else that happens to be the first
moving thing they SEE.)
JG> And now just because we have infant formula and all its additives and
JG> cows milk with all its allergic reactions and intolerences, women
JG> think it is fine to deny a child the BEST food processed specifically
JG> for it within its mothers body, and allow their poor infant to suffer
JG> all the problems related to substitute milk or soya products.
As far as soya products go, there's no problem with it. In fact,
when people have problems feeding their babies with BREAST MILK
because of lactose intolerance in the infant, soya milk is what is
recommended. There is no lactose in soy milk, for obvious reasons.
And is breast milk _really_ the best thing for a baby? No. Because
everything the mother eats goes into that. That includes any
preservatives, pollutants, or anything else that was included in the
food she ate, as well as any bacteria or virii she may be carrying
in her body. Formulas at least have the benefit of being sterlised
before it hits baby's mouth. And you can boil a bottle, but you
can't boil your breasts.
JG> Just because we have day care centres, it is fine to deprive the child
JG> of the bonding to his real mother. The nurturing of his natural mother
JG> you SHOULD care more about it than any day care worker possibly could,
JG> but obviously doesn't care enough to provide that nurturing because
JG> she wants to be a businessman.. oops businessperson.
ROFL! Like being away from home a few hours a day means it won't
recognise who 'mom' is. Got news for you - the rich have been using
nannies and such for centuries. The practice is simply more
widespread, as it isn't the province of the privileged any more ..
as it should be.
You'd deny women the opportunity (poor women, anyway) to follow
their dreams just because they have a rugrat or two? Get real.
JG> Men have put these restraints on women ? Hardly, it was love for their
JG> children that once put these restraints on women. A love that seems
to
JG> have dissapated. And when these chidren grow up what love will they
JG> pass on to their children, probably even less than their businessmother
JG> gave them.
Are you sure you're not a New-Age Crystalweenie? You sure sound
like one. Love can come from both parents, not just your mystical
mother-goddess figure. Ever stop to think that the dad should be
spending time with the kids, too? Or that kids can bond with their
fathers as well, even though dad doesn't breast feed?
JG> Any less a woman ? depends on your definition of "woman", if you mean
JG> physically, other than breast implants probably not. But in terms of
JG> womanhood and a mothers natural love for her family, and a womans
JG> pride of being a mother and nurturere and homemaker for her family,
yes
ROFL! ROFL! ROFL! There are other things to be proud about doing
than how well you run a fucking vacuum.
JG> these are much less women and getting to be more and more like men in
a
JG> mans body, I wonder if this could be a cause of the rise in lesbienism
JG> ? And of course with women castrating men with the same knife of women
JG> lib fanatacism, it is no surprise their is an increase in the number
JG> of gay men.
Oh, now you show your true stripes yet again - a homophobe.
Homosexuality in either sex is a biological condition, not a
conscious choice. But of course, you're so fucking scared of people
breaking through your silly little artificial pigeon-holing, you
won't want to admit that.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Sensors show a moron in this sector, Captain.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Larry Bevard
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 25 Apr 96 18:06:18
EID:db0d 209990c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815baf
A lone voice in the wilderness, Larry mournfully howled out "animal abortions"
LB> I read the following discussion with interest, and must agree with
LB> you on most of the message, but one point that Jim makes I feel you
LB> mis-read and over-reacted to.
Oh, I didn't misread anything. Jim's a moron. My reaction to him
was fully justified; I'm sick of idiots like him trying to demand I
fit into their little gender-based slots.
SA>JG> Femaleness is the femininity of women 1) physically as child barers
SA>JG> and nurturers 2) Socially as child nurturers and homemakers 3)
SA>
SA>Physcially, there is nothing evident that makes a female a
SA>"nurturer". As human beings, we have the ability to decide whether
SA>or not children are wanted. We do not need to be baby-machines if
SA>we do not want to any longer.
LB> I agree with you that there is no absolute that women make better
LB> nurturers that men, in fact, looking back on history, in colonial time
LB> it was the Man that raised the kids, not the woman. I do know women
LB> that was never meant to have kids and men that are perfect "mothers".
Heh. Tell that to Jim. I doubt he'll get it, though. His idea of
"fatherhood" probably means throwing a football at a 12 year old boy
an hour a week. (Daughters? Whaddya do with those?)
SA>JG> Mentally as a different being than the male of the species, with
SA>JG> different perceptions and outlooks and qualities which are wll
SA>JG> recognized by psychologists and other professionals. This has nothing
SA>
SA>Who are also blinded by millenia of tradition. Sorry, but some of
SA>us happen to have been able to break through your narrow cultural
SA>expectations, and are able to broaden our minds beyond the low
SA>standard traditionally imposed on us.
LB> This is where we disagree, men and women in general do think
LB> differently, neither one being superior to the other, only different.
LB> As with any generality, there are shades of differences and some men
LB> may have outlooks that could be called "femimine" and women may have
LB> outlooks that could be called "masculine".
And just what might these outlooks be? I think you're on the brink
of the same trap Jim has fallen into. Give me any "masculine"
outlook and I bet I have it. (Ok, except for perhaps laying as many
women as possible before I die )
LB> <>
SA>Again, you're trying to pigeon-hole an entire gender into your own
SA>narrow conception. Being single, childless, or even gay is not
SA>"being in essence men". It's simply being HUMAN.
LB> I think you both are oversimplifying on oppisite sides. Some
LB> people are never meant to get married or to have Kids. Some people
LB> are meant to exceed and excell. Generally again, and it is not just
a
And some aren't. That's just how it is, and of course isn't based
on gender.
LB> social tradition, a good man and woman team can do wonders that
LB> neither could do alone. But others would feel hindered by having to
And a good man-man team or a good woman-woman team can do well, too.
But teamwork doesn't necessarily mean marriage, either. All one
needs is two people whose talents mesh well together to make a
team.
LB> share with a mate. I agree with you that in the past, and to a
LB> certain extent still, society trys to force girls in one mold and boys
LB> in others. I feel that both have a lot to offer, expecially with
LB> differing veiw points. Generally females offer more compassion than
I don't think differing view points come from a difference in
gender. It comes from people's individual nature. I don't like
hanging around morons, and I've run into enough on either side of
the gender spectrum to see that they come in all walks of life.
LB> males and also are greater detail people, this balances the general
I don't think so. You have your Mother Theresas AND your Mahatma
Ghandis in about equal numbers. And look at the number of male
scientists - scientists _have_ to be detail people.
LB> male concreteness and directness. You are right in that people tend
? There are many females who deal in concreteness and directness.
After all, if I wasn't direct, I could never have said what I did to
Jim. I may not be direct ALL the time, but then hardly anyone is.
LB> to pigeon-hole groups (heck, we can see that on this board with the
LB> fight between "fundies" and "athiest"). Everyone has the right to
LB> grow into what they can be. If a particular woman is better that a
LB> man for president, then why not? Each person should be able and be
LB> allowed to stand upon their own merits.
Again, tell that to Germy. I think he missed the year that we had a
female Prime Minister (She took over when Mulroney-Rat left a
sinking ship, and was voted out because her party had a popularity
rating of about 10%).
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... The world will end at 12 noon. 12:30 in Newfoundland.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Buchanan
|Date: 25 Apr 96 18:56:19
EID:996e 20999700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb0
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "Buchanan"
DC> on. Plus, I'm trying to get her to at least helm our C-Lark
DC> in the dinghy races...
SA> Ah, lucky her. Though I've lived by water my entire life, I know
SA> nothing about boats, except that they're supposed to stay on top of
SA> the water. :)
DC> Mine usually does....
Usually? Uh-oh. :) How sea worthy is it with 100 cases of beer?
DC> Anyhow, the Duck Dodge Races start this Thursday. I'll have
DC> try and get Natalie a ride, if not on Mike's boat, but one of
DC> the others. She crewed quite well on Steve's boat, who's are
DC> nemesis for the Monday dinghy races!
I bet she's looking forward to it ..
SA> But then, you're not all that far away, anyway, are you?
DC> Only about 15 or 20 nautical miles.
SA>
SA> Yeah, that's pretty close. :)
DC>
DC> Not when you are down to 1 1/2 gallons of gas and no GPR!
GPR? Grand Punk Railroad? :) (I know it's supposed to be funk, but
funk is about as dead as punk is, soooo ..)
SA> story where they wound up worm-ranching.
SA> All I remember is, they inherited a worm ranch on top of a mountain,
SA> and spent their time herding them by pounding on the ground. I seem
DC> I must have missed that set... I don't think I have it on
DC> the tapes I have and don't remember it from the originals.
Odd. That's the one I keep seeing whenever I catch it.
SA> (Speaking of which, I was watching an "I Love Lucy" rerun the other
SA> day, and who was guest starring but Everett Everett Horton! I
DC> Alright!
It was pretty neat. Even better was, the woman guest-starring on
the same episode did the voice of Betty Rubble. It's interesting
watching those old shows now and again.
(And I just realised another Trekker (Next Gen) is doing an
occasional voice on Gargoyles - Brent Spiner (Data) is the voice of Puck
(the Puck, from Shakespeare. The trickstering Son of Oberon.) That
makes .. lessee ..
Jonathon Frakes (Riker) as Xanatos (the human baddie)
Marina Sirtis (Deanna Troi) as Daemona (the gargoyle baddie)
and Micheal Dorn (Worf) as Coldstone (an enchanted mechanical
gargoyle sometimes good, sometimes bad)
I've also "spotted" James Belushi in one episode, and the guy who
plays the Italian cabbie on Wings in another. Oh, and John
Rhys-Davies (the funny fellow in the Indiana Jones movies and the
host of Archaeology, as well as playing in Sliders) is the voice of
MacBeth of Moray. There are probably others I've overlooked.)
SA> time, as she pointed it out to me. I'm also pretty certain that the
SA> woman who did the female voices in "Fractured Fairy Tales" did a
SA> cameo on the Simpsons (the same episode where Penny Marshall guests
DC> I don't watch that all that often, but I've been getting into
DC> it. They do some pretty good stuff, at least from the few times
DC> that I've seen it.
It is a pretty good show. It's kind of telling when some of the
best shows out there currently are animated.
SA> at a baby-sitting service. Dunno her name, but the voice is pretty
SA> unmistakable.)
DC> They have the credits at the end of the R & B tapes (not
DC> Rhythm & Blues to you lurkers!) but I don't think that they
DC> say just what voices that they do. About the only one that
Mm. Too bad.
DC> has been done that was is EDWARD Everett Horton being the
DC> narrator for FF.
DOH!
SA> Uh-oh. Busted! :)
DC> Shouldn't that be Lynda's line? ;)
SA> Oh, hell, it probably applies to everyone on this echo!
DC> Perhaps only to Lynda, or maybe it includes only the female
DC> members of the group....
Oh, no. Most of the members here go along as gleefully as a child
popping the heads off of dandelions. :)
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Nature abhors a vacuum, and won't pick up a broom, either.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CREDIBILITY
|Date: 25 Apr 96 19:19:20
EID:4033 20999a60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb1
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "CREDIBILITY"
AS> Z1? Whazzat?
Zone 1. That's us. Zone 2 is the Europeans, Zone 3 is the Aussies
and New Zealanders, etc.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... wolfie@p1.f15.n246.z1.gryn.org
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 26 Apr 96 12:57:21
EID:fb25 209a6720
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb2
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "ALLEGORY"
SA> That's the problem - believed in WHAT? Most of the Auschwitz
SA> victims were Jews. Most of the Hiroshima victims would have been
SA> Shinto, Buddhist, and perhaps a smattering of other Eastern
SA> religions. According to traditional Christian theology (that one
SA> can only achieve heaven through believing in Jesus), all these folks
SA> are fucked for eternity.
AS> But interestingly enough, contradicted by Paul, in Romans. "Abraham
AS> put his faith in God, and this faith was considered as justifying
AS> him." Certainly Abraham did not believe in Jesus, not knowing of
Although you notice that some folks try to insist that Jesus was
already around (being eternal) so therefore Abe _must_ have known
him. Yeah, it's really sad apologetics, but this must be the reason
why they go to all the gymnastics.
AS> him.Rom 4:3. So the Jews' faith can still justify them. Or Romans
AS> 2:14."For instance, pagans who never heard of the Law but are led by
AS> reason to do what the Law commands, may not actually 'possess' the
AS> Law, but they can be said to 'be' the Law, They can point to the
AS> substance of the Law engraved on their hearts--they can call a
AS> witness, that is, their own conscience--they have accusation and
How about those who heard the missionaries, and decided they weren't
interested .. they already did their own good works their own way?
AS> defense, that is, their own inner mental dialogue...on theday when,
AS> according to theGood News I preach, God through JEsus Christ, judges
AS> the secrets of mankind." So, if not their good works, their
AS> PRECEPTIONS of their good works...their conscience...can be an
AS> advocate before God. (I presume, however, that God is the final judge.
AS> Hitler probably thought himself completely justified. I'm pretty sure
AS> God disagrees...)
I suppose that depends. After all YHWH there seems to LIKE putting
his "chosen people" through all sorts of misery ("Just testing!")
Isn't that a horrid thought? A god putting Hitler here to test its
people's faith? (No, I'm not turning into Grigor-Scott. I
would hope any god wouldn't be pleased with guys like Hitler, but
some of those OT stories can make one wonder ..)
AS> It's not stressed from the pulpit. It should be.
Ah, if wishes were fishes .. there's probably a lot "the pulpit"
could do to eliminate adversarial views of "gott mit uns but not
with you, you heathen" but ..
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... "There is wisdom in every faith; every ritual has its power." - Caine
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Demons...demons
|Date: 26 Apr 96 14:00:22
EID:ed99 209a7000
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb3
A lone voice in the wilderness, Kevin mournfully howled out "Demons...demons"
SA>Mm. Well, my keyboard was rather knackred, but it's OK now. The
SA>mouse is torn apart, but it still works (which all comes in damn
SA>handy for EOBII).
KDM> Never played any of those . . .
The Eye of the Beholder games are rather interesting (and the second
one is damn hard!) I've heard the third installment is much better
(more interactivity with items, etc) but it needs a 386. EOBII has
your party running around an evil temple, "Darkmoon", outside of
Waterdeep. Right now I'm stalled in an area where you can't rest
(and so can't get healed, or gain more spells). The third one sends
you to Mith Janor (the city in Forgotten Realms that's overrun with
undead and other evil critters.)
SA>Heh. Well, I don't think it'd do a lot of good - my floppy drive is
SA>a low density (730K) 3.5 incher. Thanks for the offer, though.
Nice try, but it won't work. I spent about 5 years with a computer
KDM> worse then the one you've got now. The progs are on LD 5.25, but I
KDM> can copy them over, no problem. So, assuming I can find the various
KDM> parts, you should get them in a month or so. I've no use for them,
as
KDM> I said, as my current computer is too damn fast, and I couldn't sell
KDM> them for anything, so . . .
Hehehe. OK; I'll send you back the disks if you like.
I saw a game in a computer store that's shutting down that I think I
could run - "Inherit the Earth". It looks interesting, but I don't
have the $60 they wanted for it.
SA> KDM> I might not be here when you do that, so you may want to see if
SA> KDM> someone else is willing to post it to USENET and such.
SA>
SA>Ah, well. Good luck in your studies, and thanks for distributing
SA>the original file.
KDM> Oh, I'll be back. I just most likely won't have access to either the
KDM> Net or, most like, to Fido this summer.
Ah, yes. Going home for the summer again?
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... The believer is happy; the doubter is wise - Hungarian proverb
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Genesis problems [1/4] [
|Date: 26 Apr 96 16:06:23
EID:0c06 209a80c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb4
A lone voice in the wilderness, Richard mournfully howled out "Genesis problems
[1/4] ["
SA> The koala, as we define the creature, eats nothing but certain
SA> eucalyptus leaves. If it ate something else, it could not be
SA> defined as a "koala"; it would be a different creature, implying
SA> either evolution, or a miracle compounded upon a miracle.
RS> Uhm, Sue, I'm not sure I'm reading this right. Are you implying that
RS> a difference in diet controls what a creature is? I am recalling now
It can. Diet is very much a function of what a creature is .. the
GI tract, dentition, what an animal has the ability to process, etc
is bound up with the creature's evolutionary history and does help
to define what it is.
RS> that a few years ago they were worried about the pandas because as
RS> far as they knew, pandas only at a certain type of grass (was it
RS> bamboo?), and they were worried that they were going to die off. Yet
RS> they eventually discovered that pandas would also eat one of OUR
RS> grasses, rye if I remember correctly, that they'd never eaten before.
Rye probably has qualities similar to bamboo, making it easier for
the panda to accept and digest. The panda, also, is only a recent
vegetarian derived from an omnivore. This is not all that unusual;
there are fossils of early Cenozoic mammals that have hooves
(indicative of an ungulate ancestor) but the dental armoury of a
carnivore. They probably also lacked the vast gut vat herbivores
need to have to ferment/digest tough plant foods as well. There was
also a species of giant kangaroo that evolved into a carnivore.
While these oddballs did exist, there is no evidence that some god
suddenly magicked _all_ critters to be well-adapted vegetarians and
then back again to be carnivores, omnivores, insectivores,
piscivores, etc.
RS> But did they become different animals as defined by what they ate .
.
RS> . did they stop being pandas when they stopped eating bamboo? Am I
RS> not a human being if I change my diet? Do you see why I'm confused
RS> about what you're saying above?
Humans are omnivores - our diet includes pretty much anything
edible, as we don't have the physiological problems with different
foods than specialists do. The koala is very much a specialist; it
doesn't even need to leave the trees to drink, having the ability to
derive the water it needs from the leaves it eats. One of the
telling points, IMO, that dogs are no longer wolves and should not
be classified as "_Canis lupus familiaris_" (as has been proposed
recently) is the fact that dogs can handle foods (ie, some
vegetables) wolves cannot or would not even think of eating if it
were presented to them. (I have known dogs to eat anything, even
green stuff, but have seen tapes of what happened when a wolf was
presented with a large zucchini. The animal regarded it as a toy
even though it had seen humans eating something similar
beforehand. It's just as well, as if the wolf had eaten the
zucchini it would likely have had a very serious stomach upset for
the following few days and likely wouldn't have gotten anything of
nutritive value out of it at all for the trouble.)
Many similar species of birds are defined by diet, and then found to
be true species by the discovery that they do not actually
interbreed. The Darwin finches of the Galapagos are good examples
of this; in their case, however, the species differences are easy to
spot on the basis of differing beak shapes that help them handle
different foodstuffs and lifestyles.
So, yes, I am saying that diet _is_ an aspect of species identity.
A change of diet can generally be taken as a sign that a species is
evolving. So, a population of koalas that was found to be eating
meat could not be considered _Phascolarctus cinerus_ any more - it
would require a new species name, just as the above mentioned
carnivorous kangaroos must be classified apart from red kangaroos,
grey kangaroos, or any other extant or extinct herbivorous roos or
wallabies.
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... County Jail, you accuse 'em, we abuse 'em.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Gods in your pockets?
|Date: 26 Apr 96 16:55:24
EID:5345 209a86e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb5
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "Gods in your
pockets?"
DC> They used the rag content for the parchment, of course!
SA> Good point. The paper I use is 100% cotton rag .. and a local uni
DC> Isn't it fun to be able to make use of all the useless information
DC> that you pick up over the years?
:) Why do you think I like cartooning? :)
SA> art teacher pays an acquaintance of mine for his shaved back hair,
SA> from which he has paper made (yuk). I shit thee not. I suppose
DC> Yuckko! Sounds a lot like a kid I went to college with... If he
DC> wasn't wearing a shirt, you'd think he was wearing a mohair sweater.
Yeah, that sounds like our Sticky. I only met him in person once,
briefly, but he wasn't hard to spot.
SA> That depends - were Dan's socks clean or dirty when they vanished?
DC> Hard to say... I'm not sure if they get eaten by the washer or the
SA> Well, I suppose it can't be worse than using Sticky's back hair for
SA> paper.
DC> Look at it this way: They are both biodegradable!
Yes .. but I don't think I'd want to use either!
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Peeee-U!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
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PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HARVEST MOON ECLIPSE
|Date: 26 Apr 96 16:58:25
EID:fcdf 209a8740
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb6
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "HARVEST MOON ECLIPSE"
AS> Besides, another mythology has claimed winter for ITS end of the
AS> world. The Norse Ragnarok begins with the Fimbulwinter, which lasts
AS> for years.
SA> And as all northern peoples know, an endless winter can be hellish
SA> in and of itself. :P
AS> This year, a lot of the US got a taste of it. We had a threat of
AS> snow on Easter...in Nashville, that's almost unheard of! It was a
AS> rough winter...
THREAT of snow? We actually HAD snow on Easter. It snowed just
this past week, too, which is actually unusual for this area.
SA> I really wish I could get Adam up here for at least a bit of a
SA> Canadian winter - he doesn't KNOW from cold. I tried suggesting he
SA> live in his freezer for a couple of months, but he didn't seem to
SA> keen on the idea.
AS> NO!!! Get him up here in the summer, and have him stay
AS> permanently...sell his old apartment or whatever in Australia, etc.
AS> Have him burn his bridges behind him, and THEN show him a winter
AS> where you live...when it's too late to back out.
He didn't seem to like that idea very much. :)
He did mumble something about possibly having to move to Canberra if
he passes a public service exam next week and gets whatever job he's
hoping for. My experience with Canberra was that it was very cold
(for Australia, anyway) but he didn't think he'd get a lot of
sympathy from me if he started bitching about 45 degree wintertime
weather. What he doesn't realise as well is that he isn't going to
get a lot of sympathy about Canberra being a very boring city -
Windsor is Dullsville, Ont and doesn't even have the museums and such
that Canberra has to offer. :P
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Have a nagila, have two nagila, have three nagila, they are small ...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bird
|Date: 26 Apr 96 17:25:26
EID:dd2a 209a8b20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb7
A lone voice in the wilderness, George mournfully howled out "Our Daily
Bread"
"As I shall mention in another chapter, jackdaws long remember
someone who has laid hands on them and thereby elicited a "rattling"
reaction. Therein lay a considerable impediment to the ringing of
the young jackdaws reared in my colony. When I took them out of the
nest to mark them with aluminum rings, I could not help the older
jackdaws seeing me and at once raising their voices to a wild
rattling concert. How was I to stop the birds developing a
permanent shyness for me as a result of the ringing procedure, a
state of affairs which would have been immeasurably detrimental to
my work? The solution was obvious: disguise. But what? Again
quite easy. It lay ready to hand in a box in the loft and was very
well suited to my purpose, although, normally, it was only brought
out every sixth of December to celebrate the old Austrian festival
of St. Nicholas and the Devil. It was a gorgeous, black, furry
devil's costume with a mask covering the whole head, complete with
horns and tongue, and a long devil's tail which stuck well out from
the body. I wonder what you would think if, on a beautiful June
day, you suddenly heard from the gabled roof of a high house a wild
rattling noise and, looking up, you saw Satan himself, equipped with
horns, tail and claws, his tongue hanging out with the heat,
climbing from chimney to chimney, surrounded by a swarm of black
birds making ear-splitting rattling cries. I think this whole
alarming impression disguised the fact that the devil was fixing, by
means of a forceps, aluminum rings to the legs of young jackdaws,
and then replacing the birds carefully in their nests. When I had
finished the ringing, I saw for the first time that a large crowd of
people had collected in the village street, and were looking up with
expressions just as aghast as those of the tourists at the garden
fence. As I would have defeated my object by now disclosing my
identity, I just gave a friendly wag of my devil's tail and
disappeared through the trapdoor of the loft."
--Konrad Z. Lorenz
"King Solomon's Ring"
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 26 Apr 96 17:37:27
EID:c542 209a8ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb8
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "Our Daily Bread"
DC> It's a pity that Mooth, the mouth-breather never seems to get
DC> interactively involved in here. I think he actually replied to
DC> Judith or Sue, all of one time. Other than that, it's all been
DC> canned tracts. (or is than an' thrax?)
No, that was Leonard Bernier, the other canned-tract writer (who
seems to be back).
--Wolfie
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Right here, right now, watching the world wake up from history ...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Question
|Date: 26 Apr 96 17:43:28
EID:b748 209a8d60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bb9
A lone voice in the wilderness, Al mournfully howled out "Question"
AS> Most American cities they are a minority. Atlanta and Washington DC,
AS> however, I believe the black population is the majority, and truth to
AS> tell, I'm not sure about Detroit.
SA> Detroit would seem to be majority black; and from newspaper
SA> accounts, they treat the Arab minority like shit.
AS> Of course. Prejudice is a never-ending cycle.
Unfortunately.
AS> It's a pretty good book (I read it in translation), better than the
AS> movie. I read it in college long before the movie was made.
SA> Mm. I've half a mind to pick up the translation one of these days.
SA> I read the translation of Zorba the Greek, and enjoyed it. (Of
SA> course, I used the Greek translation of Animal Farm to sharpen my
SA> vocabulary ..)
AS> You are tempted by the Temptation? How appropriate...
Isn't it, tho? :)
AS> I think it would be rather neat to know you were the descendent of a
AS> convinct, myself...lend a little color to the family tree...
SA> Har. I got enough colour on my family tree only two or three
SA> generations back. :)
AS> My family tree is disgustingly normal, although on my mother's side
AS> I might be distantly related to John Bell, a real farmer who was
AS> supposedly the victim of the Bell Witch, a local legend who is
AS> actually a Poltergeist, not a Witch...albeit a usually malevolent
AS> one...supposedly a voice that came out of nowhere yet could move
AS> things around, etc. This was in Andrew Jackson's time...
Whee! I don't have any ghost-related stories in my family tree ...
but a local bar is supposed to be haunted by the ghost of a
bootlegger/rumrunner shot by FBI agents during US prohibition (what
they were doing on THIS side of the river is beyond me.) The bar is
currently called RumRunner's, in what was old Sandwich town. The
event is real (ie, the shooting) and is well-known. Whether or not
the bar is really haunted is anyone's guess. It'd be fun, though.
:) It's one of those stories that gets dug up (pun intended) every
Halloween.
SA> Perhaps. I did review the information package I have though, and
SA> noticed that the list of points they give in that section is just a
SA> guideline; a reviewer actually awards whatever points he/she feels
SA> are warranted, so none of the things listed may apply. The only
SA> problem is, to even start the process you need to pay a
SA> non-refundable $414 (CDN), at least as of 1995. I'm rather loath
SA> to gamble that much. However, it _might_ be possible, but I'd have
SA> to wait at least until the end of this year to even think about
SA> starting the process.
AS> That's too bad, Sue. Would you rather move there, or your boyfriend
AS> move to Canada?
I'd rather go there. For one thing, I have less stuff to shift than
he does, and work prospects are better over there. Plus the fact
that it's warmer there. :)
--Wolfie
"Do ye think he'll find a good lass over in Canada?" - Scottish mum
"I hope so, because he sure isn't going to find any jobs!" -Scottish
dad
---Royal Canadian Air Farce
... "A king, eh? Well, I didn't vote for you..."
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: The Constellation
|Date: 26 Apr 96 18:16:29
EID:c556 209a9200
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31815bba
A lone voice in the wilderness, Richard mournfully howled out "The Constellation"
AS> Not really. The first Friday the 13th movie did, but this, unless
AS> you count some exchanges between teenagers and children, didn't have
AS> a lot of humor. Think PSYCHO. There was a little humor there, but
AS> much more terror.
RS> Another early slasher film. Almost a cliche, now, though. And
RS> that's too bad.
Actually, I like Psycho. I'm a real coward when it comes to blood
and gore movies, though, but Psycho didn't really show much (and he
only killed what, two people? Compared to what I consider real
slasher films, that's nothing.) And I only got up the guts to watch
Psycho all the way through ... oh ... 3 months ago.
"The mind of all creatures, the low and the high, is the master of
its own body, but only if the mind is at one with the flow of
nature may this system be exercised to its fullest."
--Shaolin tenet
... Omni Magazine: The "USA Today" of science.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
SEEN-BY: 119/88 120/229 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
SEEN-BY: 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 25 Apr 96 13:24:00
EID:6b27 20996b00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E19
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 17:12, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: A FAIR & JUST GOD
DC> Never tried it, but it does look interesting... Did you do
DC> foil, epee or saber? Sounds like you would do better in sabre.
LW> Why, thank you, Dan! This gives me the chance to point out that both
LW> spellings
I'm glad I'm keeping you so preoccupied.
... The concrete awaits your arrival.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 37/100 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 203/992 204/200 206/2711 218/801 907 225/99
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 211
SEEN-BY: 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 292/876 320/119 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2613/5
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 25 Apr 96 13:38:00
EID:8b94 20996cc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E1A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 08:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> fishing off the coast of Africa as one way to bring in foodstuffs,
DC> The last I heard about the fishing off of most of Africa is that
DC> the ocean is as bad as the deserts as those growing rapidly on the
AS> No argument about the lakes. I heard something a little different
AS> about the coasts, but we're talking about an entire continent here,
I've seen the pictures of the meagre catches that the coastal
waters are providing. Not even enough to make for a bit of
fertilizer, let alone a meal for a small family.
AS> and it could vary if we're talking about just barely off the coasts,
AS> or going as far afield as the Norweigian fishermen or the Japanese.
Al, if you haven't notice, the world's greatest fishing spot, the
Grand Banks off of Nova Scotia, is virtually barren. The same is
happening to the fisheries off of the west coast. The prize
winning salmon in the last fishing derby barely reached 20 pounds.
We are despoiling the oceans far faster and and on a greater scale
than the Dust Bowl was created.
AS> Yes. This won't fix things forever and ever. But it may keep people
AS> from starving until attitudes towards population and birth control
A crash, a big crash, will come far sooner than that.
AS> change... I see it in three stages; a "Marshall Plan" where the
AS> surplus foodstuffs are shipped to the critical areas, and education
The problem is is that the surpluses are obtained by intensive
farming. It only decreases the potential of the land and makes
it invasive to great fluctuations, via draught or disease.
AS> being stressed, with an emphasis on birth control, technology, and
AS> agriculture appropriate for the region. The second stage would be an
Dust is not the normal requirement of food plants...
AS> improving it for their society, evolving their own forms of society
AS> and making their own innovations, just as Japan did...not a slavish
Why do you think the salmon runs are so poor around here? They
are being decimated by the Japanses.
AS> that can be changed around. But it's certainly better than just
AS> sitting back and saying, "let them starve."
Never said that was a good option. Problem is that it is the
technology introduced already that has set the stage for the
eminent disaster. "Be fruitful and multiply" will be the death
of us all.
... The inspiration in the Bible depends on the ignorance of the reader.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Admit the mythology _is_
|Date: 25 Apr 96 13:43:00
EID:114e 20996d60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E1B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-22-96 23:07, Mark Barnett got back to Fredric Rice
FR>ps> you'd still need two entire more hydrospheres of water to do
FR>ps> the job the flood describes.
FR>mb> ok if you say so I have not looked that up.
FR>Is that an admission that the mythology _is_ myth?
MB> No it is a statment that I have not looked up your statment.
Keep you hands clasped firmly over your eyes and chant, "Is not"
until the hateful truth goes away...
... "Jesus has a temper tantrum and screams 'EAT ME!": Sam Kineson
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: All Christian masters are
|Date: 25 Apr 96 13:50:00
EID:5b3f 20996e40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E1C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-22-96 23:10, Mark Barnett got back to Fredric Rice
MB> Well First the only master I have is Jesus Christ, Second the money
First is your master? I thought Jesua bar Joseph was you leader?
MB> that I give to the church is not mine anyway it is Gods 10% of
MB> everything is his.
Just what does a god need with money? And, doesn't that make him
out to be a userer? He should whip himself out of the temple.
... I'm in the Jehovah's Witness Protection Program.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 25 Apr 96 13:57:00
EID:11a1 20996f20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 00:06, Al Schroeder got back to Michael Hardy
MH> not allow pseudonyms. Even if I could, though, I would not. It
MH> wouldn't help anything.
AS> Oh, BOY am I beginning to hate twit filters...
Here, pass this 27 part short post to Mikey for me. Thanks!
Sincerely yours,
God Dan,
Charter Member of Both of mortal Mikey's Twit lists.
1287k file to Mikey, attached...
... "Bother," said Pooh, and called in an air strike.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALLEGORY
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:05:00
EID:11a1 209970a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 00:07, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
LS> the statement. Whom then should we rather believe?" (Iren.
LS> Adv. Haer. Bk. II, ch. xxii, secs. 3, 4, 5; ANF. I, 891-2.)
DC> Looks like he's saying that Jesus didn't die....
AS> Actually, the way Irenaeus phrases it is a little ambigious, but as
I
AS> answered Larry, the "he" could just as easily refer to JOHN. Now, of
It's the ambiguity that makes for the interpretations in his phrasing,
as well as the bible, to allow everyone to come to their own
conclusions. You'd think that a god could do better than leave
so large of openings that you could drive K-dubs through them.
AS> age (say his eighties or nineties) and one whose whole point is that
AS> He died on the cross...which would YOU pick? And Larry agreed, if I
AS> remember correctly, that such was a possible interpretation of the
AS> phrasing.
Possible...
AS> Well, obviously it is a matter of judgement, but I have never run
AS> across one as strong.
Problem is, there is no independent evidence to support that a
trial, let alone an execution, took place under the circumstances
that you need to validate the bible.
DC> Use Occam's Razor and go to the heart of the matter...
AS> But in this case, Occam's Razor, if we slice off this, leaves too
AS> MUCH unexplained.
Not in the least. It leaves you with the evidence that an xification
may have occurred and the criminal may have survived. Not unheard
of, as most exifications took 1 or more weeks to kill off the victim.
As such, a 3 hour deal gives a lot of leeway to the fact that it
either did not occur or was a set-up to get Jesua out of the "hot
seat".
... Follow the herd, you will eventually end up in the slaughter house
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: angles
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:13:00
EID:110f 209971a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-25-96 02:58, J.j. Hitt got back to Laura Hodgkins
LH> angels are a sentient being. they don't ahve to be
LH> somewhere to know what's happening.
JH> You're being intentionally obtuse, right?
I'd say that was an accute observation, but the math wasn't right..
Be caeful! I think that I have the last go-round on geometry
puns archangled...
Sined,
God Dan
... God would know EXACTLY what would convince you he exists. T.A. Wunder
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Chicken shit
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:28:00
EID:4b02 20997380
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 11:33, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
SR> Walk into a solid brick wall. Thanks for the demonstration.
LW> the experiment because the two theories in question predict the same
LW> results. That means the experiment is useless.
DC> Not if reality is only in your mind.
LW> True. But that's not what the theory I presented postulates.
You don't have a theory. I doubt that you even have a hypothesis.
DC> I see you are still trying to say that but avoid the experiment.
LW> My offer to you stands, Dan. If you can find a _single_ place where
I
LW> have stated that I believe reality is only in my mind--or even where
I
Drive into the brick wall and show thatt reality doesn't exist. Show
us how you leap into a concrete block negates the reality of it.
LW> do Hector's experiment from the tallest building there.
You are saying that the reality exists only in the mind. It seems
that the experiments have scared you off from performing them.
LW> as just stated stands. Put up or shut up.
The reality of you performing any of the experiments will most
likely kill you. At best, you will be in traction for the rest
of your life.
Now, show how your perception of reality differs from that
reality and perform the experiments and show that the brick wall
and/or the concrete slab exist only in your mind.
... The Wise admit their errors and learn; Fools defend them and stagnate!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laura Hodgkins
|Sub: ending
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:39:00
EID:e4ae 209974e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-24-96 17:46, Laura Hodgkins got back to All
LH> all you people who are so damn....pig headed, that they can't believe
LH> in anything they don't understand, and criticize others for their
Star Goat said that you would fail in you quest. Ask him the next
time you see him.
LH> beliefs. but with the immature people I have found here, I see that
You found yourself, now go live with your fantasies.
LH> posting or any others. once again I pity all of you.
... Don't let the door hit you on the way out.....
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: EPISTEMOLOGY
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:41:00
EID:e55f 20997520
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 15:55, Lee Woofenden got back to Fredric Rice
FR> Welp, looks like you're trying to pretend that "Pixic Evolution" is
FR> scientific, huh?
LW> What is "Pixic Evolution"?
LW> What makes you think I am pretending it is scienific?
The concrete block will explain that for you, should you decide
to perform the experiment.
... He wasn't picking on a good Christian. He was picking on Stringfellow
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 25 Apr 96 14:45:00
EID:8ef5 209975a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 14:40, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
LW> does walking into a solid brick wall demonstrate that
LW> reality is material?
LW> How does walking into a brick wall demonstrate that reality is
LW> material, Steve?
DC> Let's see you walk through the brick wall, Lee. That would
DC> convince us that the wall is not real.
LW> Why would I want to convince you that the wall is not real?
Look above, Lee. You are claiming that the wall is not real.
Use you imagination and walk through that wall for us. Convince
us. Perform Hector's Experiment and make the concrete slab into
a big soft pillow. It's waiting for you.
... I plan to live forever, or die trying.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Epistemology 1/2
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:00:00
EID:8ef5 20997800
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 15:44, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
LW> Dan, I stated very early in this argument that I personally believe
LW> that matter
LW> is real. This is irrelevant to the argument.
You better get your act together, Lee. You have continually
claimed that reality is in the mind.
LW> I postulated a universe projected by a larger or higher consciousness
LW> according
Then, Lee, get that "higher mind" to make that concrete slab into
a big pillow. You can get it to do that for you and show that the
concrete is really a pillow, can't you?
LW> individuals do not have the power to change those laws by an effort
of
LW> will. Then I asked: If you believe and claim that reality as we know
it
LW> is material,
LW> can you propose an experiment or bring forward evidence to show that
Hector's Experiment still is valid. Get the "higher authority" to
make the brick wall into a marshmallow.
LW> Your continued reference to my individual will in making the concrete
LW> be a soft
So your will is not strong enough.. Sorry. Get you "greater will"
to alter that reality. All it takes to convince me is that your
"higher authority" makes the concrete into a pillow when you
perform the experiment.
LW> I am still waiting for you--or anyone else--to address the question.
LW> And I'm beginning to yawn a bit...
You should yawn, Lee. You have yet to provide the "great mind"
that controls reality.
... 9 out of 10 rotweillers prefer Jehovah's Witnesses.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Flood Nonsense
|Date: 25 Apr 96 15:04:00
EID:f067 20997880
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 16:08, The Raven got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> The only reason god "saved" those groups is because he didn't
DC> know that they existed.
TR> Did I ever tell you why I am not the religious person I used to
TR> be? It was because I asked a minister about the fate of those Indians
TR> in North America before the whites came with Christianity. He said
TR> they all went to hell.
TR> Somehow, it just didn't seem fair to me...
And, if that god was a real god, it sure isn't fair...
That's about the same reasoning why I no longer am either..
... "Xiananity is Yuppieanity." Ross Catto
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: godless
|Date: 25 Apr 96 16:12:00
EID:e832 20998180
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-24-96 10:34, J.j. Hitt got back to Kric Lament
KL> Oh- so this guy can post fowl language, but not me?
JH> That's really chicken, isn't it.
I bet he ducks giving you a response, the turkey...
... Ancient anesthesia: Ice for locals, and Christians to numb the brain.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:31:00
EID:2528 209a3be0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 21:04, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
MH> error, and then revealing that you know that's really not so, that the
MH> Biblical language is ambiguous enough that it could well be correct.
DC> That's the point, Mikey. You have a bible that was never written
DC> in a cognitive manner in the first place.
MH> Keep digging, Dan. Now the "glaring error" has simply become a
MH> minor quirk of the language the book was written in.
See the other posts on this, Mikey. It seems that the number of
cities and how they are "interpretted" varies by the translation.
DC> most of the last 2,000 yrs trying to explain why their bible is
DC> correct _if_ you interpret it correctly.
MH> This isn't a matter of interpretation, Danny. It's a
MH> subtlety of translation (of an insiginificant text.) Translators all
It is not just the "insignificant text", Mikey. Take a look at how
the interpretation of 'slave' is made into 'servant'.
MH> Why is it that Christianity deals in grand ideas of life, re-birth
MH> and redemption, and the best skeptics can do is come up with a handful
MH> of questionable alleged "errors" in minutiae?
Because those that buy into the dogma ignore the obvious and are
brainwashed into overlooking them. You look at the bible as the
"perfect word of god" and will do somersaults to justify it.
... +Origin: STIFLING NETWORK: Choking the World with His Piety.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: More Bible Errors
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:37:00
EID:6822 209a3ca0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 05:03, Al Schroeder got back to Michael Hardy
MH> 3. Pi = 3.0 (Actually, the Bible only says pi is equal to 3, which is
MH> absolutely correct to one significant digit. As Rick McFarlane noted,
MH> you can't compute a number to a more precise level than the numbers
AS> Heck, ANY level of Pi is imprecise...it goes on forever, with no real
AS> pattern we can discern....
Al, here's a dozen doughnuts for 3 bucks. I'll just round it and
sell you 10 doughnuts for the same price.
It's a shame that other cultures extant at the time knew of the
imprecision of the ratios. Looks like god short changed the
Hebrews and missed the opportunity to show his divinity by
providing the 'inspired' authors with a value of Pi far more
accurate than the societies around them were able to calculate.
... Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. - Franklin
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:44:00
EID:d421 209a3d80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 11:40, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> It will at least keep you off the streets, sort of...
LW> But probably not penetrate your skull. It's simply an experiment on
my
LW> part. I
I guess it's a lot safer than performing Hector's experiment, which
is what you missed in my reference to the "streets, sort of..."
... "The shoe fits you like a glove" Hector, purposely mashing metaphors
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Our Deadly Doctrine
|Date: 26 Apr 96 07:53:00
EID:dc4c 209a3ea0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-25-96 04:07, J.j. Hitt got back to Robert Jackson
JH> What always tickles me is that many of them add a wheel to the
JH> base of the cross to make it easier to drag along.
Wiat 'til next year... It will be a motorized version with
air conditioning and a captain's chair for the dragger.
... The Roadkill Cafe 'You Kill It... We Grill It!'
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE FLOOD
|Date: 26 Apr 96 08:17:00
EID:ff10 209a4220
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 00:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> The omnipotent part means that the omniscient part has to be part
DC> of the job description.
AS> Not necessarily, although I think it is a fair summation in this
AS> case.
'Omniopotent' means able to do anything. Omnicsience has to be
part of the description, or the omnipotent part is meaningless.
AS> being there, with no escape. It is an intellectual knowledge, not a
AS> gut one.
DC> However, Al, you forget that your god already knows the outcome
DC> of the event before he embarks on it. (Goes to the onnicient
AS> Sure. But I have to agree with Michael here. If it were three days or
AS> three billion years, the TIME involved wouldn't be enough to "earn"
AS> salvation for others.
Then, the xification is meaningless, as you state that the salvation
is not earned by the death.
AS> no time at all...whether one is dead ten minutes or an eternity...from
AS> the point of view of the individual who is dead.
And, to an infinite god, that time frame is meaningless. To an
omnipotent god, the xification was a very short waste of time.
As it's an omniscient god, it knew what the outcome was already,
which makes it even more of a meaningless gesture.
... Money is the root of ALL Evil! Send $20 for more info...
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: woids
|Date: 26 Apr 96 08:37:00
EID:f8c7 209a44a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 08:11, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Nope, that is the issue. They were wrong. Can't your god provide
DC> better information to it's scribes?
JB> I argued as you, when I first ran across this "Biblical error," but
JB> due to the above, found it not as useful as first thought. I don't
JB> use it against the Literalists any more, for the above reason.
As of yet, none of the literalists have come up with that later
passage to justify their claim of 'accuracy'. All they have done
is claim "rounding" or "measuring the outside vs. inside rim". It's
quite apparent that they don't literally read their bible well, if
at all.
In that regard, it is useful at this time. }:-)
... Religion IS part of our evolution, now a vestigial organ. Bob Burcham
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:13:00
EID:8b94 209a49a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
* Originally By: Katherine Wintersnight
* Originally To: Dan Ceppa
Just in case you missed it... After all, it wans't my memory
that was lost, it was Hardin that is lost!
DC> KW> You can't ask him, Al. They've lost him.
DC> AS> Well, yeah, he's gone, but when he was alive, he once shot a guy
for
DC>I'm not sure, Al, but I think Katherine is referring to the fact
DC>that he _is_ lost. It was him, or someone else that they re-buried
DC>and can't find the grave any more!
That's right, Dan. They have a headstone for him at a local cemetery,
but they are not sure who's under that stone. Recently, several of his
relatives wanted to dig Hardin up and move him to Nixon, TX. There was
a literal stand off over his alleged grave between these relatives and a
local historical recreation group. In the following civil trail, it was
admitted that the gravestone had been placed in the approximate area
that Hardin was buried, but there was no way of knowing which grave was
really him. The relatives wanted to just start digging up bodies and dna
testing them until they found the right bones. This didn't go over real
well with the judge. Then the local history people poured cement over
the grave site. Other relatives came forward to protest moving Harden...
It was a real circus last fall. :)
-!-
* OLXWin 1.00a * Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. - B. Franklin
-!- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
! Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:17:00
EID:4a8a 209a4a20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-24-96 11:53, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> AS> And some take advantage. Just ask John Wesley Hardin, the REAL
DC> KW> You can't ask him, Al. They've lost him.
DC>that he _is_ lost. It was him, or someone else that they re-buried
KW> poured cement over the grave site. Other relatives came forward to
KW> protest moving Harden... It was a real circus last fall. :)
I think I remember you mentioning it about that time. This go-round,
I've saved it to disk, just in case I need it again.
Isn't trivia great!
... Errata: "In the beginning" should read "Catch this shit..."
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: B.I.B.L.E.
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:21:00
EID:2b5b 209a4aa0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 01:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
RB> I just wanted to post that again so Judith, Marilyn, Lynda,
DC> battle, I could not ask for better opponents...
AS> Opponents? Surely you are going to battle on the side of Judith,
DC> Notice the "if" above! After all, it was referring to Teutonic
DC> mythology...
AS> True. Who plays Freya, the goddess of love who gets half of the
AS> slain? The, uhh, better half, I presume...
We could always do a casting call on that. Has Sharon Stone done
a movie lately? What about Sandahl Bergman? She'd be perfect
for the role...
... Never judge a book by its movie.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: christology
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:33:00
EID:a7f0 209a4c20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 15:28, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> There you go again, Lee, invoking "magic".
LW> Who said anything about magic, Dan? I was talking about facts and
LW> belief.
Facts do not require a belief.
DC> You already shown part of it. You believe in "magic".
LW> Where did I say that?
Right above, where you equate facts with belief.
DC> You also seem to be looking for an incantation to perform the
DC> Experiment safely.
LW> Once again, this is laughable, since I have always agreed that if I
LW> tried the experiment I would die.
Therefore, your mind cannot influence reality.
LW> I'm not questioning the reality of the concrete, Dan. I'm questioning
LW> whether it can be demonstrated that that reality is material.
Perform the experiment an show that reality doesn't exist.
LW> You've got it backwards, Dan. The burden of proof is on you to
LW> demonstrate that reality _is_ material. I've never claimed it is not.
The experiment and your refusal to perform it shoots that down. If
you want, use Griggor-Scott as the guinea pig...
DC> Sorry, Lee, you are the one claiming that reality is a projection
DC> of consciousness.
LW> I never made that claim. Only that reality cannot be demonstrated to
LW> be material rather than a projection of consciousness.
Project all you want. It won't change the reality of the splat.
DC> Use your mind to make the concrete into a big, soft downy pillow
DC> and land safely on it.
LW> A straw man as usual. This has nothing to do with the theory I
LW> presented.
Your "theory" claims that reality is a projection of the
consiousness. If that is true, you can project the pillow
in place of the concrete. Yet, Lee, you refuse to attempt it.
DC> Nope... The evidence and facts may show that the thesis is
DC> incorrect.
LW> Then you're agreeing with me that things _can_ be proven wrong?
Nope, I'm saying that your hypothesis is wrong as it does not
fit the evidence.
DC> god is not as powerful as Star Goat. Now, provide the evidence
DC> that Star Goat didn't eat your god.
LW> Dan, is it your practice to believe everything you hear until it is
LW> proven wrong?
IOW, you cannot provide the evidence that Star Goat did not eat
your god. That should teach you something, but I doubt that
it will.
... Fundys: 'possum-like creatures re-born dead on the side of the road.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FACE VALUE
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:36:00
EID:fefd 209a4c80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 05:33, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> And, your answer is wrong!
JB> No, it isn't. You just have to understand what Neimand means.
Probably... What's it mean? (And, don't send me any chocolate
cakes, please!)
... "Truth through superior ignorance": The religious way!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Tracey Rea
|Sub: Re: Kenneth the neo-athei
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:40:00
EID:938f 209a4d00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 19:00, Tracey Rea got back to Kenneth Mcabee
-> Re: Re: Kenneth the neo-athei
TR> I defy you to prove that there is no God...
TR> Are you saying that you were put on this earth (by whatever means)
TR> just to end up as either fertilizer or worm food? What do you believe
I bet he tries to deny he said that and will claim that he's
really a Christian, the false Christian scum...
... Religion n. Bullshit couched in lies.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Return of property
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:46:00
EID:a003 209a4dc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 08:04, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> The deal over the book has gotten out of hand. At first, I thought
DC> that it was a joke.
SA> Funny thing was, it WAS a joke. He said over the phone he was
SA> surprised at the reaction. I find the entire thing ironic, now ..
JB> (I have a hard time believing that Sue, who seems to me so
JB> well-grounded in reality, actually _believes_ this....)
You have to remember, she's the one that has received the "free
gift" of the book. (Yes, there's a lot more to this echo's
topic behind that.)
JB> Helping out the 'enemy' and getting bitten for it is one thing;
JB> helping out one's _own_ side and getting bitten for it is entirely
I haven't a clue as to the mindset of George. He's given me some
great taglines, but has also done his best to piss off any possible
supporters.
JB> But: all's well that ends well, as Styx notes.
I won't miss him.
... FACT: There are more horse's asses than there are horses
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Starwyn
|Sub: test
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:52:00
EID:4849 209a4e80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 20:52, Starwyn got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: test
DC> St> Meanie ...
DC>Preston should at least have offered you a Twinkie...
St> Minus the cream, of course.
If I understand it right, he leaves that safely in a wrapper...
+ Origin: Visualize Whirled Peas! (1:104/515)
... Vegetarian's rally sign: "No Cukes! Give Peas a chance!"
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: The end?
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:58:00
EID:cc39 209a4f40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 18:27, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SK> uhh.. sure.. don't like chocolate pie though.
DC> Not sure if we can get that in another flavor... Perhaps a
DC> pink pepermint may be in order.
SA> Blasphemer. There IS no other flavour!
There is always room for orange flavored Metamusil, as well as
mint-flavored Pepto-Bismal!
... "Faith is not wishing to know what is true." - Nietzsche
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Linda Whitten
|Sub: Re: the problem with Chri
|Date: 26 Apr 96 09:59:00
EID:8ef7 209a4f60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-18-96 22:34, Linda Whitten got back to Dan Ceppa
LW> Everything I've seen regarding this guy is referred to as Una-, not
LW> Unibomber.
That seems to be the norm-a!
... +Origin: JIHAD NETWORK!: Offing popes for the True Christians (TM)!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: the problem with Chri
|Date: 26 Apr 96 10:00:00
EID:002f 209a5000
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E37
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 14:42, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Well, the controversy in here started over whether it was UNI- or
DC> UNA- Bomber. Supposedely, there is evidence for both, J.j. thinks
DC> that the evidence now shows the Elliot is Fredric. :)
LW> Does he have any PROOF of that?
No, but he has evidence that supports that thesis.
... Of people born in 1809, 100% who believed in god are dead!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 26 Apr 96 10:11:00
EID:bf90 209a5160
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E38
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-23-96 03:09, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Does that make you number one on Mike's Twit Hit List?
DC> That should even work on Mikey's twit J.j. Hitt's list!
AS> If you insist. (Said he, disappearing into the mist..)
DC> Glad you got it, or at least the jist.
DC> If we grind more, we'll have more grist.
DC> And, if we do it too long, someone may get pist.
AS> Let 'em; I'll kill 'em; they won't be missed...
AS> Now excuse while I listen to melodies by Liszt...
AS> And burn my popcorn to a crisp...
Just don't play around and get into a tryst.
If you do, you may get bris-'d.
That's what happens when you get into the midst
Of a very trying triangulist.
AS> I think you are officially detwitted.
So, does that me I have the honor of being the first to be
Officially detwitted? Wow, 3 honors in a month!
DC> What's "religion"?
AS> Hmmm. Good point. Judging by this echo, a better question might be
AS> to ask what ISN'T...
DC> Sounds like you came up with a truism. Quick!! Hide it before
DC> some starts praying to it!
AS> It depends, Dan. Can I pass a collection plate...?
Sure, just as long as I get my 10% After all, being a god entails
a lot of expenses!
... "Yeah, sure. But notice the contradiction in Mother Goose 7:32" DR
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Charles Ring
|Sub: Adolph Hitler Was a
|Date: 26 Apr 96 10:45:00
EID:46fb 209a55a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E39
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-25-96 23:25, Charles Ring got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Not sure about then, but any Catholic can perform the rights in the
DC> absense of a priest.
CR> 100% untrue.
Which part of my statement is untrue, bunky.
... Imagine. 9,000,000 sperm and this shithead is the one who won.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler Was a C
|Date: 26 Apr 96 10:46:00
EID:a7a6 209a55c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E3A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-25-96 19:13, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
MH> absence of the Apocrypha, there are not.
DC> There is still enough differences for groups to denounce one version
DC> and uphold another, in not just in the particular addition or
DC> deletions of various books. Those "minor" differences go right
DC> to the core of particular sects beliefs.
MH> Examples?
Do you believe in the Book of Mormon?
... +Origin: MONOMANIC NETWORK CAN'T THINK OF NOTHIN' BUT...?
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 26 Apr 96 10:50:00
EID:383b 209a5640
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E3B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-24-96 00:02, Mark Barnett got back to Martin Goldberg
MG> MB> No it means that God did not whant to destroy the earth in that
MG> MB> way again.
MG>That is not an answer. The question is "The fact that god made an error
MG>(won't do it again) mens he is not perfect.
MG>[ ] Yes
MG>[X] No
MB> The Lord did not make a mistake.
Just wait until your god wants to destroy you to make an example
of you. It's his perogative to do so, and he's checking his list
right now to see if you have moved to the top of it.
Good luck in the next thunderstorm. You'll need it.
... Even ostriches don't keep their heads in the sand!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: asimov
|Date: 26 Apr 96 13:47:00
EID:97a4 209a6de0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 896C0E3C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 04-25-96 19:07, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> as the number of Biblical Archaeology seats in colleges and
DC> universities are being curtailed.
MH> That would seem NOT to be the reason. Else Christianity Today, the
MH> conservative Christian magazine, would not bemoan the trend and urge
MH> evangelical Christians to try to reverse it.
Why are they bemoaning it?
MH> ==BEGIN QUOTED TEXT==
MH> If biblical archaeology is not reinvigorated, Scripture-illuminating
MH> evidence will remain buried in the Middle East.
Strawman, Mikey. No one said that archaeolgy in the middle east
was being curtailed. It's the biblical archaeology that is
being dismissed as being invalid.
MH> and to promote the importance of biblical archaeology in our churches.
MH> This is an expensive, but necessary undertaking.
It's an attempt to validate what has, to date, proved fruitless.
They would do better with their money to help people, not attempt
to justify their simple beliefs on a whim.
MH> It is necessary because our therapeutic culture has divorced Christian
MH> faith from its narrative and historical framework. The faith is often
The framework is missing, Mikey, because little, if any, was ever
in place to begin.
MH> It is necessary because, as the discipline shrinks, there are fewer
MH> places where archaeologists can study their specialty at the doctoral
MH> level. Without the cooperation of the broader evangelical communi